# w_comment

created: 2007-05-19 01:58:45
subject: <b>on motive...</b>
body:
One of your main premises for Moridin being the one to kill Asmodean is that Asmodean was killed, while Moghedien was only mindtrapped. Your reasoning for this is the motive for which Moridin killed Asmodean, namely treason. You state that the DO didn't know about Asmodean's shield, and so thought that he did it of his own free will. I dispute this. When Demandred goes to SG, the DO says that Asmodean was 'twisted by his weakness.' I don't know of any weaknes that the DO could have been referring to other than the shield. Why then, would the DO allow Asmodean to be killed while keeping Moghedien alive? Betrayal at the core. Moghedien, when controlled by the adam, still holds back secrets from the wondergirls, and avidly wants revenge, especially against Nynaeve. Asmodean, however, has given up on the DO, knowing that he'll never be accepted back. He gives the whole speech about throwing in his lot with Rand, holding onto that last tuft of grass on a cliff while falling. Even when he's searching for the wine, he thinks that by living again (from the rebirth of balefire) that he might be a new man, capable of change.<br /><br />How would the DO know any of this? Demandred (from that intro to LoC)wonders how the DO knows what he knows. He was surprised both by knowledge as well as ignorance. My thoughts were that the DO has been through so many turnings of the wheel that he can see patterns and cause and effect- to an extent. Every turning is different, but there will be similarities and imperatives.


created: 2007-05-19 02:04:58
subject: <b>I'd say no.</b>
body:
I'd have to agree with Graendal being the most likely killer.  RJ has said that it should be clear who killed him from the stuff that's in tFoH and nothing later (though I do have to kind of wonder what he's got in his pipe, given the many years people have argued about this on the net), <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /> so that pretty much does leave out Moridin or any other reincarnated Forsaken.


created: 2007-05-19 13:54:38
subject: <b>i bore a hole...</b>
body:
I think the &quot;weakness&quot; was simply referring to Asmo being a coward. I don't think that that quote had anything to do with a shield.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2007-05-19 17:28:52
subject: <b>Personally...</b>
body:
People stating that Moridin, Avi, or Lanfear killing Asmo are just asking for a confrontation. I can't believe many people who have read WoT for several years would actually be able to believe such a think. I used to be a Graendal supporter, and probably still am deep down inside, but I'd like to think Semirhage did it. Meeting her unexpectedly would likely scare pretty much any of the Forsaken shi<i></i>tless. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br />Red Sox Fan &amp; Yankee Hater<br />kim: it's too cold there to smell<br /><b>Warder to the wonderful, amusing and ever so smart Elayne_Sedai</b><br />Friends don't let friends read Goodkind<br />My mind isn't always in the gutter, it just has VIP access</font><p><a href="http://tinyurl.com/45t6t" target="_blank">Simply Splendid </a></p><p></p>


created: 2007-05-19 18:15:59
subject: <b>Didn't realize...</b>
body:
That the two servants theory was debunked. Sorry. I still go with Graendal.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cheers,<br /><br />lolmat<br /><br />http://wildphilosophy.blogspot.com</font><p></p>


created: 2007-05-19 20:00:54
subject: <b>Taim is not Moridin</b>
body:
Taim isn't Moridin, because Moridin would have known about the Ashaman Dashiva actually having been Osan'gar... since it is made clear that Taim did not know Dashiva was Chosen, it is impossible for Moridin and Taim to have been that same.<br /><br />Taim is most likely one of the &quot;new dreadlords&quot; referred to in the prophecies.


created: 2007-05-21 12:18:57
subject: <b>Why oh why</b>
body:
First things first,  Why oh why would you submit a Who Killed Asmodean theory?  Nobody is right.  Everybody is right.  It is a lose lose situation.<br /><br />The really hard part is I agree with you.  I am in the Ishmael camp if in anybodies.  My second choice would have been Sammuel.<br /><br />Ishmael made sure that LTT KNEW who was responsible and made sure LTT was sane enough to understand what he did.  Moridin would have followed the same MO.  Yes we are lead to believe that Ishmael is dead.  Then we get the watcher with the fan cloth.  Who was Ishmael.  Nobody can detect the use of true power, which Moridin uses exclusively.  <br />Moridin would be the only forsaken with the nerve to stick around the palace after the battle.  The rest would stick to their power base and evaluate the situation and see if they needed to alter their plans.<br /><br />Sammuel would be the only other choice.  His MO was always to strike when Rand was busy fighting another battle.  Plus he would want to eliminate all competition.  Even though I would think he would have been in his territory ensuring his defenses were in tact, remember everything pointed at Rand going after Sammuel.<br /><br />Graendal could have done it.  I mean she showed up after Sammuel was dealt with.  But that does not mean she made a habit of it.  I do not think she would have risked her neck; there is NO obvious incentive for her to be around the palace.  She KNEW that Sammuel found a stasis box.  She new it was filled by a DarkFriend.  Sammuel was acting like he had an Ace up his sleeve.  She would have assumed he had a ter&#8217;angreal or two.  That was the only motive that she would risk her neck for.<br /><br />I do not agree with all the details of your theory.  But I do agree it was Ishmael/Moridin that took out Asmodean.  <br /><br />Oh, Taim is just Taim.  He is a guy with power and ego who wants the recognition and power he feels that he deserves.  He feels he can get what he wants if he turns to the shadow.  It really is that simple.  I even doubt that he was &#8220;trained&#8221; by a forsaken.  Maybe he was taught a few tricks, but not any full blown follow me and I will teach you my son, type of scenario.<br />


created: 2007-05-22 08:31:55
subject: <b>Again, on premeditation</b>
body:
Asmodean's murder <i>cannot</i> be premeditated.<br /><br />I'll try to explain it once more.<br /><br />Only one person had even a remote idea where Asmodean was going : Asmodean himself.  We got all the information from his POV - he did not tell anyone why he was leaving or where he was going.  Even someone following him wouldn't have any idea what he was thinking, or where he was going - not even that he would leave Rand's side for a while.<br /><br />The timing was awful for a premeditated murder - why would Moridin strike at the worst possible moment, when it was much easier to strike Asmodean at night, when he doesn't move around?<br /><br />There is no way the killer could have any clue of Asmodean's destination, if he even had one - which wasn't apparent if you don't have his thoughts.<br /><br />So, yes, the murder is most definitely the result of a series of coincidences and not something premeditated - that Asmodean just happenned to open the wrong door at the wrong time is very typical of what goes on around ta'veren like Rand.  He surprised someone, and that someone killed him because otherwise, Asmodean would have killed her.<br /><br />Anyone who support the &quot;premeditation&quot; thesis must provide a credible explanation how the murder was arranged - in those empty corridors, and so far, no theorist has ever managed to provide a credible explanation how the murderer would have known even seconds before the fact that Asmodean would ever open that door. <br /><br />Beside, neither Moridin nor Taim are even suspects from what RJ told us of the mystery over the years (some of the quotes were posted by John above. It's missing the one from a signing where RJ said Asmodean was a &quot;road kill&quot;.) - we didn't even know either was around by TFOH. There are clues about the murder <i>in</i> TFOH itself.<br /><br />Your theory started from a &quot;cool&quot; premice : it would be nice if Moridin executed Asmodean theatrically, letting him know who he was, and you've build a house of cards to support it. It <i>does not fit</i> the circumstances of the murder.  Try to find a reasonable, logical and credible explanation as to how anyone would have known to go hide behind this door to surprise Asmodean, and you'll see the obvious : there is none!<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="images/personalsmilies/30778.gif" />Wheel of Time Reference Library : Articles, maps, charts and misc.<img src="images/personalsmilies/30778.gif" /><br /><br /></font><p><a href="http://13depository.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">The Thirteenth Depository - a Wheel of Time Blog</a></p><p></p>


created: 2007-05-24 17:01:31
subject: <b>Have to agree with DomA......</b>
body:
Taking that all into account, plus after we see Graendal go grave digging with Sammuel, we can be pretty certain who did it. I think she was just snooping around, looking for something left behind by Rahvin, and bumped into Asmodean. Reason I rule out the premeditated murder is also the fact that the DO doesnt take betrayel easy, and that he would of given Asmo a way bigger punishment than a quick death. Graendal probaly got a fright running into Asmo, panicked, and then balefired him before he could say much.


created: 2007-05-27 01:53:30
subject: <b>Oh by the way fybonacci.......</b>
body:
Just so you know it was not untill after Rhavin was dead that Asmodean was killed. Furthermore how do you know that Graendal didn't try to aid Rhavin? Also, Graendal had every reason to be in Caemlyn as she Lanfear, Rhavin, and Sammael were conspiring to perform a concerted ambush against Rand; she didn't just &quot;happen&quot; to be there. Also when examined the whole murder speaks of a target of oppurtunity. Your theory sucks dude. One last point addressed to everyone, nowhere has it been written or stated that Asmodean was killed with Balefire.


created: 2007-05-29 12:59:10
subject: <b>Whether or not Asmo was balefired is irrelevant to all arguments</b>
body:
We should consider it a dead issue and not worry about it at all. I mean really, what are the chances the DO would actually bring back Asmo? All that matters is that he did die and this is an old argument anyways. Does it really matter who killed him? I think not. The only thing this is good for, and I'll garan-damn-tee thats why RJ won't come out and say who it is, to keep us entertained between books. Otherwise, people would lose interest too fast.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br />Red Sox Fan &amp; Yankee Hater<br />kim: it's too cold there to smell<br /><b>Warder to the wonderful, amusing and ever so smart Elayne_Sedai</b><br />Friends don't let friends read Goodkind<br />My mind isn't always in the gutter, it just has VIP access</font><p><a href="http://tinyurl.com/45t6t" target="_blank">Simply Splendid </a></p><p></p>


created: 2007-06-03 14:19:58
subject: <b>yeah</b>
body:
I agree<br /><br />and White is the best ajah<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Well, any person that you fear<br />And anything that is severe<br />And any place you won&#180;t go near<br />You see they&#180;re nouns, you see they&#180;re nouns<br /><i>Carai an caldazar, bitch!</i><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2007-07-17 02:54:58
subject: <b>Alot of problems...</b>
body:
I agree that there are some problems with Graendal as the killer, but nearly as many as with Moridin. RJ says that there are clues enough to make it obvious (He needs a dictionary). He may stretch obvious a bit, but not that much. You don't know that moridin/ishamael is recycled at that point. Ishy is long dead.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/egwene.gif" border="0" /> Pyro sedai of the Green Ajah <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/egwene.gif" border="0" /><br />sh! I'm planning world domination! <br />anyone fancy playing maidens kiss?<br />Video games: my anti real life. <br />rpgs did not replace my common sense, they just filled the void. <br /> <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2008-02-11 17:40:33
subject: <b>Moridin didn't do it</b>
body:
The passage says &quot;The word still hung in the air when death took him.&quot; Note how death in the passage is spelt with a lower-case d.<br /><br />Whenever Moridin's name is translated, it is always with a capital D i.e. Death.<br /><br />For example, upon first hearing his name, Moghedien's reaction was &quot;any fool could call himself Death&quot;.<br /><br />I doubt a wordsmith like Jordan would make such a mistake, or even do it deliberately to lead us down the wrong path.<br /><br />As to who killed Asmodean, I don't know, but the evidence seems to say Graendal, and I am leaning towards her.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Protons have mass?<br />I didn't even know they were Catholic...</font><p></p>


created: 2008-10-15 17:49:43
subject: <b>Taim is Sammael?</b>
body:
I haven't devoted near as much time as many others with their theories, but I did consider this one a bit, especially after I finished KoD.  It was the red and black color pattern that was so distinctly mentioned.  We know that these are Moridin's colors, but I highly doubt that Moridin is actually Taim.  There hasn't been any mention of him suffering from the same face-in-my-head sickness as Rand (on a sidenote there, if the face in his head is Moridin, why didn't Rand or Lews Therin notice the saa? Maybe they only drift across the eyes periodically, but the books did mention that they appear more frequently the more of the True Power you used, and Moridin seems to be using nothing but that.) However, I find myself fixated on a similarity of personality and circumstance between Taim and Sammael.  In the Age of Legens, Sammael was Lews Therin's second-in-command, the same as Taim.  He also disdained and seemed to be offended by Lews Therin's praise or acknowledgements, the same as Taim.  Taim seemed offended when he was given the sword and dragon pins, exactly as Sammael would have. We know that Lanfear and Moghedien were punished for their failures by being bound with cor'souvra and made to adorn themselves with Moridin's red and black livery. Sammael didn't exactly accomplish his goals either, though his failure is less obvious, but he might also be bound and forced to decorate his palace in Moridin's colors. Also, at the end of KoD Taim mentions the old saying &quot;Let the lord of chaos rule&quot;.  This was a directive given only to the forsaken, else I would think that Alviarin, Supreme Council for the Black Ajah, would have been given the same, so we know that Taim is one of the forsaken, but not which one.  I can't completely debunk the Taim=Moridin theory, but it just doesn't seem that plausible to me.  This is my first attempt at a theory and I am not sure if I covered all the bases, but let me know what you think.


created: 2007-05-23 05:56:57
subject: <b>I think he doesn't want anyone to kill Rand because</b>
body:
he holds a personal vendetta against him and wants he and only he to kill Rand. While Moridin seems more stable than Ishamael, I think he's still a little crazy and thats why the homosexuality is kinda evident. I don't think he wants necessarily, but he may be gay.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rand.gif" border="0" /> Dragonsworn314 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rand.gif" border="0" /><br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> Sworn to the legion <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /><br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /> Shen An Calhar kicks serious booty<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2007-05-23 10:23:20
subject: <b>could be</b>
body:
Definately could be. However I don't see his sexually based comments, or lack there of, as evidence of anything except the fact that he is completely consumed by a desire to the DO's bidding. I think his carnal pleasures are fullfilled by planning, and carrying out his plans to control events and become Nae'blis. Not saying I don't think he is gay, I just think he is too obsessed with own destiny to even care.


created: 2007-05-24 07:06:46
subject: <b>no</b>
body:
maybe shaine gave fallion as a sex slave because she knew that it would be a terrible, possibly the worst, punishment that a woman could have....


created: 2007-05-24 09:32:01
subject: <b>wow...</b>
body:
I&#180;d never thought thaT,he might well be,I don&#180;t think we&#180;ll ever get to know.<br /><br />SH doesn&#180;t undress the female Forsakens forany sexual pleasure,though,just like Semi,they know that while unclothed,people feel less secure and aren&#180;t so sure of themselves<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Well, any person that you fear<br />And anything that is severe<br />And any place you won&#180;t go near<br />You see they&#180;re nouns, you see they&#180;re nouns<br /><i>Carai an caldazar, bitch!</i><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2007-05-24 09:44:17
subject: <b>i dont know about that....</b>
body:
didnt RJ say that we HADNT been inside the heads of any gay characters? he specifically states that the reason we havent't seen any is because we haven't read the story from their point of view. that would kinda rule this whole theory out right?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;I have a lot of heroes...Bob Hope, Martin Luther King Jr, Abraham Lincoln, Bono...and God. He would have to be the fourth one. These people just have done so much to help the world.&quot;     -Michael Scott, The Office</font><p></p>


created: 2007-05-24 11:50:07
subject: <b>Have to say no to this one</b>
body:
From RJ's Blog, Oct. 6, 2005<br /><br /><i>For jofraz, <b>I have gay and Lesbian characters in my books, but the only time it has really come into the open is with the Aes Sedai because I haven't been inside the heads of any other characters who are either gay or bi.</b> For the most part, in this world such things are taken as a matter of course. Remember, Cadsuane is surprised that Shalon and Ailil were so hot to hide that they had been sharing a bed even knowing how prim and proper Cairhienin are on the surface. Well, for many it is just on the surface.</i><br /><br />RJ has said many times that he gets inside the head of the character he is writing. Needless to say, he has definitely been inside the head of Ishamael/Moridin many times, since he is the primary antagonist in the story.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2007-05-24 13:11:57
subject: <b>Power is the main interest</b>
body:
I think you have a good theory but I think you're reading into Moridin's POV too much.  I think it's because we all want our hands on the next book so badly that we are reading too much into some of the things we come across.  <br />I believe after all the years of waiting for &quot;his chance&quot; and the desire to become Naeblis, Moridin has pretty much lost all interest in anything but power.  I don't think he cares about &quot;pleasures of the flesh&quot; whether it comes from a man or woman.  Power has become everything and all consuming.  Kind of like the guy at work who gets promoted and his head swells with newfound authority and rightousness.  (I'm gonna bring everybody in line and they're gonna do everything I say and the way I want it done and it better be right now, or else!)


created: 2007-05-25 00:30:10
subject: <b>Disagree</b>
body:
<b>Moridin seems to show the same desire for Rand that Lanfear/Cyndane does. He vehemently objects to Cyndane's suggestion to capture Rand to make him tell the Chosen were the Dark One's seals are. This is uncommon because it is one of the few instances in the series where he shows any kind of emotion and responds to a suggestion so quickly (KoD,Ch3). Although he undoubtedly wants to kill Rand himself, there is a strong overtone that he wants to (psychologically, psychosexually, and in a Freudian manner) have Rand for himself:<br /></b><br /><br />I don't see it.  Ishamael/Moridin has been planning and setting the world up for TG for over 3,000 years.  He has a very long term master plan he's following here, and Rand's death is part of that plan.  His plan may very well even reflect the will of the DO.  IMO, he doesn't want the other Forsaken bumping off Rand before time, because he doesn't want his schemes messed up, or because the DO doesn't will it. <br /><br /><b>Moridin owns the mindtraps of Moghedien and Cyndane. He does not notice Cyndane's good looks, though other characters (Aran'gar, Graendal) seem to (KoD,Ch3). Cyndane is often called &quot;doll-faced,&quot; though never in Moridin's point-of-view.</b><br /><br />They might not be his type.<br /><br />Also, they've both proven themselves to be unreliable in the past, and his lack of sexual desire could very well be because he does not want to get tangled up with them in that way, especially if they're type of woman who would likely use sex to her advantage (Cyndane would probably do so).<br /><br />They're also very much his subordinates at this point.  This could make them unappealing to him.<br /><br />Whatever the case, a lack of sexual desire in Moridin's PoV for two specific women does not make him gay.<br /><br /><b>This is not related to Moridin being homosexual, but his minions are usually punished in sadistic ways, and likely through sexual means. Moridin gives Falion to Lady Shiaine to punish (TPoD,Ch28 ), who is eventually made to be her servant and a forced sex-partner for Daved Hanlon (WH,Ch10). Of course, the more direct explanation is that Shiaine is responsible for this rather than Moridin, who might not care. However, it is harder to believe that RJ would have Shiaine, a woman, send another woman (Falion) to be sexually molested. Furthermore, the likelihood of Shiaine being a lesbian is lessened in that she does not keep Falion for herself, in the same manner than Therava seems to keep Galina.</b><br /><br />Rape seems to be a fairly standard punishment for Darkfriend women who screw up or disobey.  Even SH rapes Moghedien and Mesaana.  Falion is nowhere near as high ranking as two Forsaken, so Moridin delegates punishment.  Deleigating the punishment may also be a way for Shiaine to prove her loyalty.<br /><br /><b>In any case, his minions are usually punished in sadistic ways. Jaichim Carridin, as another example, is drowned in brandy.</b><br /><br />It's rule through fear.  The threat of dying a particularly greusome death helps to keep Darkfriends in line.  Rule through fear probably is one of the reasons that rape seems to be a fairly standard punishment of women (see comment above).  There's also elements of dehumanizing the one punished.  None of this reflects on Ishamael/Moridin's sexuality in anyway, rather this is how the DO would appear to want things done.<br /><br /><b>Moridin does not openly have sexual thoughts, but he is often surrounded by graceful, golden-haired, and androgynous zomara. He prefers them to actual people and uses them exclusively over human servants. They are very reminiscent of Graendal's minions, who worship her through Compulsion, and who she most likely compels to perform sexual acts for her. Moridin's zomara are not human, but they are handsome, and certainly not female either:</b><br /><br />That's because the <i>zomara</i> are relatively mindless.  Looks at Carridin's PoV at the beginning of tGH where he ponders as to whether or not the servants will be killed after the Darkfriend social so they don't reveal secrets, and then realizes there's no need.  The <i>zomara</i> also appear in male and female forms (again, Prologue of tGH).  Bottom line is that Ishamael/Moridin uses them because they can be trusted and becuase they are obedient.<br /><br /><b>Several of the male Forsaken (Sammael, Demandred, Rahvin, Belthamel/Aran'gar) notice and make comments on the feminine features and full breasts of the female Forsaken (especially Graendal), but Moridin never seems to. He only seems to notice his handsome cupbearers and has a strong preoccupation for Rand.</b><br /><br />I would say he's far more focused on his plans than casual sexual thoughts.  His preoccupation with Rand can easily be explained by the fact that Rand is a very pivotal figure as the DR.  And certainly in Rahvin and Aran'gar's cases, we've seen female Forsaken think about them as lecherous pigs.<br /><br /><b>In a similar vein, Shaidar Haran seems to enjoy putting Moghedien, Cyndane, Graendal, and Mesaana in their place, in a quasi-sexual way that Myrddraal aren't supposed to feel. He strips Mesaana naked and Graendal does not feel comfortable around him, wishing she had worn more concealing clothes. He is the only one of the Shadow who is equal to Moridin, although he seems to do all of Moridin's dirty work. From an ideological perspective, it is as if he is the muscle while Moridin is the brain. He harbors vague heterosexual feelings while Moridin harbors vague homosexual ones. His methods are also more direct and &quot;masculine;&quot; whereas Moridin's are convoluted, indirect, oppositional, and therefore traditionally &quot;feminine.&quot;</b><br /><br />It's hinted at several places that Myrddraal like to entertain themselves at times by raping captive women. The only unusual thing about SH raping two Forsaken is that no ordinary Myrddraal would do so -- if one tried the Forsaken would likely obliterate it on the spot.  SH has whatever connection it has to the DO, and likely it rapes Moghedien and Mesaana itself since as Forsaken, they rank high enough up that no Darkfriend has any real authority to mete out punishment to them.  As for Graendal feeling uncomfortable, I would guess SH does that to all or most of the Forsaken, given that their own petty schemes have in places harmed the Shadow, again it's rule through fear, but this time with the DO himself more directly involved.<br /><br />Bottom line: I disagree.  You're basing Moridin's sexuality on a lot of assumptions and I don't think it really matters one way or other.  Most of the things in the story concerning the sexual preferences of the Forsaken largely seems to be along the lines of deviant behavior or character flaws which define individual characters.   He's the champion of darkness.  How he gets his kicks is really irrelevant to the overall story, and so therefore, it's not at all necessary for him to be gay.


created: 2007-05-25 09:16:46
subject: <b>You've managed to completely miss the point</b>
body:
Moridin's sexual orientation is irrelevant - and &quot;homoerotism&quot; is a very abused notion.  Everything, from male friendship, to the absence of clear sexual comments, to the kind of observations anyone with a solid sexual identity can make (such as noticing the physical beauty of the people of your own gender like you would a beautiful pet or a flower) gets confused with &quot;homoerotism&quot; these days. There is nothing very erotic in Moridin's thoughts or motivations, period - and thus there can't be <i>homo</i>erotic overtones either. <br /><br />Sexuality is a force of life, and RJ thematically portrays Rand's hyper-sexualization as such, even including his and Elayne's life-generating powers.  He uses the theme around Mat, Perrin and Faile, Nynaeve and Lan as well.<br /><br />Moridin is death, and he rejects life as it exists in the Pattern system, which he seeks to destroy, with everything else. He is an ultimate &quot;God of Death&quot;. While Moridin the man must have sexual preferences and needs, RJ has paid close attention not to portray them in the story - for thematic reasons. For the very same reason, none of the Forsaken has a normal love relationship. Lanfear is a femme fatale, Aran'gar is an abnormal &quot;shadowspawn&quot; she-male - not a transvestite or gay, while Graendal is clearly depicted as a twisted sexual predator. With others, like Demandred, RJ opts for a repressed sexuality - he finds the sexual overtones of both Graendal/Aran'gar offensive etc. (and if you must look for latent, <i>very</i> latent homoerotic overtones, look at Demandred's hatred for LTT). Semirhage's interest for the human body is strictly clinical - and she derives her pleasures through means totally others than sexual. <br /><br />An earlier or different writer might have chosen to portray Moridin as an homosexual, and wove around him themes of eros/thanatos etc. RJ did not go this way at all, rather he depicts Moridin as largely asexual or disinterested in sexuality, surrounded by sterile androgynous figures like the Zomoran rather than humans, or even the sterile Fades (you should have doubled-checked certain of your facts : Zomoran have an androgynous quality, but they have the appearance of extremely beautiful <i>young</i> male and female - in other words, your whole theory falls flat on this point as Moridin is surrounded by both beautiful male and female servants - and he pays virtually no attention to them, unlike Graendal who turns people into brainless hypersexualized servants and who is very attentive to them and what surrounds her.  For Moridin, it's only a mean to an end, trappings necessary for someone in his position.<br /><br />Only a too vidid imagination would see homoerotic overtones in Moridin's views, actions, comments, link to Rand. Moridin himself is described as manly and imposing - a big man. There's nothing whatsoever that suggests he is effeminate or androgynous - you've completely invented that.  <br /><br />Furthermore, you have missed a passage that totally contradicts your views, which is when Moridin fondles Cyndane in public, with clear lethal overtones, and which generates the comment from Demandred that he treats her like a possessive lover. Given the target of his attention, that's very clearly an heterosexual moment.<br /><br />In the series, RJ chose to portray homosexuality as something ordinary and even positive - the general view of the characters about it is &quot;no big deal&quot;, and he refrains from assigning a moral stigmata to it. Even in the case of Ailil, it was solely a matter of transgressing vows, without any negative connotations about the fact the lover was of the same gender. In other words, the level of homophobia in RJ's cultures is very low, much like their level of racism (at worst, some cultures are a bit xenophobic, but not racist).<br /><br />Developping Moridin's motifs by making him an homosexual, why it would classically fit some archetypes, would go straight against RJ's depiction of homosexuality in the series. He'd say one thing with a theme/motif, and the opposite through the plot. That'd be very poor writing. Which is why he got Moridin to be disinterested in sex instead - and if he were gay or bisexual, that'd be as irrelevant as if he is heterosexual.<br /><br />If I were gay, I'd find your theory at least slightly offensive and I'm surprised it was published because of that. It's full of subtle and not so subtle prejudices - nobody well-informed and devoid of religious prejudices would mention homosexuality as a &quot;sexual deviance&quot; these days (which is different from homosexuals who have deviances, like Galina who held a position of power and was abusive with young women in her charge that the Tower considers children even though physiologically their are adults or close. That's not strictly speaking pedophilia, but Galina's abuses of her power as AS over novices and accepted were similar to the behavior of pedophiles, as was abusive the instance when she tried to prey on a sister psychologically unstable because of her warder's death), as a &quot;proclivity&quot; - as if it we choose to be heterosexuals and it was something to be proud of, or would associate it even indirectly to madness or irrationality. The comments associating male physical beauty or dressing up with research to homosexuality are prejudiced and culturally-biased comments, while the parts about gay men thinking like women shows little understanding their psychology. The social context of WOT wouldn't lead gay men to adopt classically female social roles.<br /><br />The very quote you use at the end proves you wrong : we got several POVs from Moridin, and clearly there aren't homosexual overtones pointing to his sexual orientation anywhere in them but in your imagination, because RJ says flat out that he has never written a POV from a gay man in the series, though there are some of his male characters who are gay. Even planning a theory about a main character being gay based on that quote was a most bizarre idea, considering what it says.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="images/personalsmilies/30778.gif" />Wheel of Time Reference Library : Articles, maps, charts and misc.<img src="images/personalsmilies/30778.gif" /><br /><br /></font><p><a href="http://13depository.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">The Thirteenth Depository - a Wheel of Time Blog</a></p><p></p>


created: 2007-05-25 10:19:14
subject: <b>Thank You.............</b>
body:
DomA and orius, many of your arguments are the same ones I came up with I just felt that this post was so ridiculous that I shouldn't even dignify it with a respose. But yes, I too caught that suttle whiff of homophobia that the both of you hit upon. However it struck me as a little wishful thinking coupled with repressed self-loathing stemming from confusion about sexual identity.


created: 2007-05-25 12:09:24
subject: <b>as usual</b>
body:
DomA has summarized my thoughts much more eloquently than I could have. Perhaps I'm too PC, but if I were the TP admin, I would not have allowed this theory through.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Need a book to read - check out my blog for ideas.</font><p><a href="http://nethspace.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">Neth Space</a></p><p></p>


created: 2007-05-26 00:51:23
subject: <b>...</b>
body:
<b>DomA and orius, many of your arguments are the same ones I came up with I just felt that this post was so ridiculous that I shouldn't even dignify it with a respose. But yes, I too caught that suttle whiff of homophobia that the both of you hit upon. </b><br /><br />I wasn't really addressing any sort of latent homophobia in the theory in my rebuttal at all.  My focus was really largely focused on addressing the weak points in the theory contradicted by elements in the story itself.<br /><br />DomA's idea of Moridin representing death and thus being asexual rather than homosexual or anything other than heterosexual was interesting and hadn't occured to me. I tend to take the things I read for entertainment simply on the surface adn rarely worry about deeper meanings.


created: 2007-05-26 06:27:20
subject: <b>Since Moridin plays for both teams...</b>
body:
wouldn't that make him bisexual?  Wouldn't it be odd if this were true?  The whole fate of the world is in jeopardy because LTT spurned the adavances of Ishmael, prompting him to swear allegiance to the Dark One and seek to destroy time. Hell hath no fury like a woman (or gay man) scorned, apparently.  <br /><br />Please....I love seeing new theories on the site, but this one stretches the realm of relevancy.  Granted, the story of love gone bad is an age old tale with huge social implications, but I would be greatly disapointed if this theory had anything to do with the plot of the series.  Moridin may be gay, who knows?  More importantly though, who cares?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Funny thing about weekends when you're unemployed, they don't mean quite so much...except you get to hang out with your working friends.&quot;<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2007-05-26 21:59:09
subject: <b>Nope</b>
body:
I think that your theory is improvable.  You're trying to prove that he's homosexual by proving that he's not heterosexual.  Sorry, it's not always that cut and dry.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">http://www.green-machine.info<br />Making Money Online</font><p></p>


created: 2007-05-28 18:58:51
subject: <b>Relevancy is the key</b>
body:
At this point, Moridin's sexual preferences neither illuminate his behavior nor advance the plot.  RJ willing, this may change, or it may not.<br /><br />Thus, at this point, who cares?<br /><br />Frankly, Moridin doesn't seem very interested in sex at all.<br />Even if a lot of his omnisexual creatures are very beautiful (fey???).<br /><br />But still, maybe a good thing to throw out.


created: 2007-05-30 01:32:15
subject: <b>Homosexual is a behavior not a personality</b>
body:
when Moridin has sex with another male then you can say that he has engaged in a homosexual act.  Otherwise Mordin is just someone in a new body that happens to be very slender and delicate.  He is obsessed with power and has little interest in other people unless he is controlling them or making them uncomfortable to exert his power over them.<br /><br />As a Theory it is fine that it has been posted. Even though I do not agree with it.  It is interesting to see how people draw conclusions.  What they are looking for and in which characters they seem to find it.<br /><br />I am a man in a long term emotional commitment with another man.  Some people might say gay and others might say homosexual but as i have stated before homosexual is a behavior not a personality.  <br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">patiently waiting for October 2009</font><p></p>


created: 2007-05-30 08:41:42
subject: <b>We're seeing the signs</b>
body:
When we start writing theories like these, allowing them to be posted, AND commenting and arguing about them is when it is clear that the next book is WAY overdue because we are running out of things to talk about


created: 2007-06-07 16:40:53
subject: <b>Some things to address</b>
body:
I deliberately waited to post a response to this as I figured I should let some of you get it out of your system first before I make any comments on it. First, this response is mostly addressed to Orius and DomA, who show a level of scholarship with the Wheel of Time I could only have respect for. To the others, I will try to address your comments in a general fashion.<br /><br />Is this topic irrelevant? Possibly. <br /><br />It doesn't really matter to me or the story whether or not Moridin is homosexual. It is an interesting detail, but given the age we live in -- Women's Studies and Gender Studies have flourished in the past thirty or forty years, and just the presence of gay characters in a popular fantasy series is indicative of the changing sensibilities of an age. Robert Jordan has made his contributions to feminism in his own way: simply by including strong female characters in positions of leadership, and portraying the best and worse of what women (as well as men) are capable of. Gender roles are very prevalent in the novel, and though Robert Jordan doesn't say what women and men &quot;can&quot; or &quot;should&quot; be, he offers examples of women and men that are heroic, and he gives them different ways of using power to achieve the same ends. You would have to be blind not to admit that there are differences between the male and female characters in his books. There are trends actually. Clear ones. Some of you condemn me for using &quot;generalizations&quot; in my theory, but I have not said that anyone, man or woman, gay or straight, has to follow these trends to the word. They represent more bell curves than anything, and nothing is set in stone. No man or woman, gay or straight, has to act within the behavioral confines set for them. There are certain things that women are more inclined to do, and certain things that men are more inclined to do, but they are not bound to do them. If a character happens to be gay, than it introduces an interesting psychological element into the mix. Nothing more. <br /><br />Any close reader will see that there are specific gender roles in the book. A woman must &quot;submit&quot; to saidar, while a man must &quot;seize&quot; saidin. There are more male Forsaken than female Forsaken. There are more male generals. The female Forsaken have better survivability than the male Forsaken. Men are often &quot;stronger&quot; in the Power, while women are more &quot;dexterous.&quot; Men have a greater affinity for Earth and Fire, while women have a greater affinity for Water and Air. Men are more likely to use swords. Both men and women use their wits (the successful ones anyway), but women are still less likely to use swords, and women often rely on their wits in the absence of physical power. Both sexes can use The One Power as a weapon, though Aes Sedai and the Kin are restricted or greatly hesitant in their use of it as a weapon, and Asha'man are explicitly trained to use it as a weapon. Women are necessary for Linking. Men are not. Men can make larger Gateways. Women can make better Bridges, et cetera, et cetera.<br /><br />What does being gay have to do with it? Everything if you look, but nothing if you don't want it to.<br /><br />My theory was meant to connect sexual ideas with psychological, social, and idealogical grounds. Judging from your negative responses, that may have been a mistake. Neither homosexual or heterosexual acts are indicative of a homosexual or heterosexual orientation. Moridin could have fondled Cyndane for all I know. That doesn't necessarily make him straight. It doesn't make him gay either. Gay men can notice the beauty of a woman as well as the beauty of another man. Noticing beauty is not often enough to call someone &quot;homosexual&quot; or &quot;heterosexual.&quot; However, it is generally accepted in colleges and literary criticism that observations of same-sex beauty be construed as &quot;homoerotic.&quot; Something is &quot;deviant&quot; if it differs from the norm. Homosexuality was considered a sexual deviation until the revision of the DSM-II in 1973 (the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders published by the American Psychological Association). From then, it has been considered more of a trait than a disorder. There is nothing offensive in anything I've said.<br /><br />I have not missed the point. Rather, I would be inclined to think you have, if you deny the sexual politics behind the scenes. Moridin may still be straight. Robert Jordan has not provided nearly the same amount of evidence concerning Moridin as he has with certain female characters and their &quot;pillow-friends.&quot; &quot;Moridin is homosexual&quot; is the theory. This is a theory post in a theory forum. I stand behind what I wrote, and I explicitly wrote:<br /><br />&quot;He is so clearly mad with power and the True Source that it seems he has no space to openly dwell on sexual thoughts.&quot;<br /><br />Several of you have repeated this. Of course, I would agree.<br /><br />Since no one else made the observation that Moridin could be gay, I thought I would reserve the honor of being the first. If I turn out to be wrong in the next book, I would not retract my theory. It would still be an interesting theory, and one with profound implications if it were true. Can you deny not being entertained?<br />


created: 2007-06-08 00:12:37
subject: <b>Profound...?</b>
body:
In your rebuttal comment, you mentioned that Moridin being homosexual would have profound consequences for the series.  Maybe I'm dense, but I don't think your theory does much other than offer up Moridin as an example of male homosexuality in the WOT.  In this, it is no more profound than the illicit affair between Shalon and Lady What's Her Name.  While this affair advanced the plot, it did so only because Shalon feared having it revealed.  Had the affair been heterosexual it would have little difference from her perspective, so its same sex nature has no bearing.  <br /><br />In the same way, Moridins actions are far better explained by his lust for power (not for Lews Therin) and arrogant, domineering nature than by any possible sexual proclivities. As indicated by what we know of his writings and by his allegiance to the Dark One, Moridin is a promotor of chaos while the Dragon works for unity and order.  I think you're really reaching when you try to bring sexual tension into the mix in any sort of causal argument.  Their status as eternal nemeses (is that a word?) is quite enough.  Moridin's homosexuality, if it exists, is incidental and inconsequential rather than profound.  So again I too stand by my original comment.  Moridin may be gay. Who knows? More importantly though, who cares? <br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Funny thing about weekends when you're unemployed, they don't mean quite so much...except you get to hang out with your working friends.&quot;<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2007-06-10 06:03:37
subject: <b>Re</b>
body:
&quot;SH doesn&#180;t undress the female Forsakens forany sexual pleasure,though,just like Semi,they know that while unclothed,people feel less secure and aren&#180;t so sure of themselves&quot;<br /><br />&amp;<br /><br />&quot;Semirhage's interest for the human body is strictly clinical - and she derives her pleasures through means totally others than sexual.&quot;<br /><br />We haven't experienced anything from his point of view that would suggest that Shaidar Haran is asexual, but since he is in a physical body, and that sort of thing has been seen to hold some degree of leverage on a current incarnation's sexuality (i.e., Aran'gar--although this may just be an attribute of the Dark One's own special brand of incarnation), and other Myrddraal seem to take pleasure in violently raping captive women, it is reasonable to deduce that he did, in fact, gain some sadistic pleasure in his penal meetings (bad pun?) with Mes &amp; Mog.<br /><br />And who could mention sadism without invoking the opprobrious personage of Semirhage?  Though rare they may be, female sexual sadists obviously exist, and Semirhage most certainly is one of them.  Don't believe me?  Ask Tuon.  (&quot;The woman had been almost tender about it, in an odd fashion, though she left her weeping for days, unable to don even a shift.)  She is also open to both men and women.<br /><br />-----<br />&quot;If I were gay, I'd find your theory at least slightly offensive and I'm surprised it was published because of that. It's full of subtle and not so subtle prejudices - nobody well-informed and devoid of religious prejudices would mention homosexuality as a &quot;sexual deviance&quot; these days (which is different from homosexuals who have deviances, like Galina who held a position of power and was abusive with young women in her charge that the Tower considers children even though physiologically their are adults or close. That's not strictly speaking pedophilia, but Galina's abuses of her power as AS over novices and accepted were similar to the behavior of pedophiles, as was abusive the instance when she tried to prey on a sister psychologically unstable because of her warder's death), as a &quot;proclivity&quot; - as if it we choose to be heterosexuals and it was something to be proud of, or would associate it even indirectly to madness or irrationality. The comments associating male physical beauty or dressing up with research to homosexuality are prejudiced and culturally-biased comments, while the parts about gay men thinking like women shows little understanding their psychology. The social context of WOT wouldn't lead gay men to adopt classically female social roles.&quot;<br /><br />Sheesh, people can be sooo overly sensitive and captious.  Those &quot;subtle and not so subtle&quot; prejudices were--and still are, for about half the population (of the U.S., at least)--part of the cultural norm, and have only recently begun to be phased out.  (At this point, I'm somewhat content with this progression.  The best we can realistically hope for, I think, is the eventual acceptance of it by a significant enough majority that homophobia is as frowned upon and marginalized as minority racism.)  The guy doesn't come across as a raging homophobe (I never like using that word to describe &quot;hatred of homosexuality and and homosexuals&quot;; something like &quot;anti-homosexual&quot; seems more eloquent), nor do I think he was intentionally trying to offend.  <br /><br />(That last bit--&quot;He has also corrupted his ideals so thoroughly that it would make sense if he had deviant (or at least non-majority) sexual proclivities as well.&quot;--was borderline, though, in the tie-in between corruption and unusual sexual activity.)<br /><br />But studies (I think it was a Swedish study) have actually shown that gay men's brains are very much like those of women.  (I personally tend to just associate that with so-called &quot;femmes,&quot; but... *Shrug* )<br /><br />-----<br />&quot;Some people might say gay and others might say homosexual but as i have stated before homosexual is a behavior not a personality.&quot;<br /><br />It's more of a characteristic, and a fairly important one at that.  Our characteristics do constitute our personalities, after all.<br /><br />-----<br />&quot;Moridin's homosexuality, if it exists, is incidental and inconsequential rather than profound. So again I too stand by my original comment.&quot;<br /><br />Freud would probably disagree with you there.  Though...  Freud never psychoanalyzed anyone who's lived perennially for several millennia, has godly powers that intoxicate worse than any drug, and has been immersed in the presence of the cosmic entropic principle personified.<br /><br /><br />&quot;Moridin may be gay. Who knows? More importantly though, who cares?&quot;<br /><br />Clearly, everyone who took the time to review the theory and compose a response here.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />No shame in that.  As a gay person, I'm obviously interested in other gay characters, few though they may be in fantasy, especially those possessed of such wicked awesomeness, so I pounced on this.<br /><br />I'm not convinced, though.  Moridin's sexuality seems to be, as previously stated, completely overshadowed by his obsessive madness, enhanced and refined to a whole new league of lunacy by his status as being half-sealed and the principal legate of the Dark One (not to mention his exorbitant usage of the True Power), to the point where he is as good as asexual.  And I think it's safe to assume RJ's not going to toss in a romantic escapade for Moridin in A Memory of Light to settle this, so this case is as good as closed, too.


created: 2007-06-18 10:55:43
subject: <b>good theory</b>
body:
this makes a lot of sense. it might stand to reason, also, since personality and personal proclivities tend to stick with the transmigrated soul, (vis a vis the 'gars) that Ishamael/Elan Morin Tedronai was homosexual as well. the only time we saw him sane that we know of was in the prologue of TEoTW...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">___________________________<br />i'm a WoThead <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br />___________________________<br />When all else fails, laugh.<br />___________________________<br /><br /><i>Tai'Shar Charleston, S.C.!</i></font><p></p>


created: 2007-06-27 00:40:31
subject: <b>Re</b>
body:
Nevertheless, he didn't really do anything outright homosexual in the prologue.  Considering his position as de facto chief in the Shadow's hierarchy, and Lews Therin's position, and the fact that LT was said to have faced and beaten him before, and rather publicly, his obsessive hatred is understable.<br /><br />And honestly, Elan Morin -- and probably most of the pre-Forsaken --  were probably a bit crazy in the first place: War may not have been around in the AoL before the Bore, but people like Semirhage still existed, and EM was supposed to have written influential (or at least it gathered an early 20th century, Bolshevik-esque following) nihilistic literature anyway.


created: 2007-06-14 05:05:39
subject: <b>I don't think so</b>
body:
Vanin's background as a horse-thief goes back far to long for him to be anything other than he is. If you remember, Mat went to quite great lengths to find himself the best of the best (i.e those whose reputation was such that they were never vaught, or even suspected of being naughty people. Also, Demandred as Vanin would have had to have thought that Mat would go through this convoluted method of finding him. Finally, there would be no gain to him to pretend to be Vanin. <br />Besides, would Demandred really behave nicely to Elayne?<br />No. Vanin is just Vanin and a great character to boot.


created: 2007-06-14 06:01:29
subject: <b>Don't think so...</b>
body:
Mat is around him constantly, and since Damandred as Vanin would be using the &quot;Mask of Mirrors&quot; to alter his appearance, Mat would feel the power being used with the Foxhead  Ter&#8217;angreal...good try though.  I've always thought that the High Lord Weiramon is Damandred though...


created: 2007-06-14 14:13:49
subject: <b>nothing to gain?</b>
body:
i wouldn't think that there's nothing to gain by him placing himself there. he can keep an eye on at least one of the tripod's legs (Mat) and possibly have control of him. this is just speculation, and wild at that, but if he places himself in a position of trust he could get close enough to use Compulsion on Mat at a crucial point (or at least try, considering the foxhead ter'angreal). He was told to let the lord of chaos rule, and how better than to pose as a &quot;dragonsworn&quot;?<br /><br />i appreciate the comments.<br /><br />i wasn't as much &quot;really reaching&quot; as i was rereading and it just occurred to me as odd that a bag of suet should be so mysterious...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">___________________________<br />i'm a WoThead <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br />___________________________<br />When all else fails, laugh.<br />___________________________<br /><br /><i>Tai'Shar Charleston, S.C.!</i></font><p></p>


created: 2007-06-14 18:28:39
subject: <b>I like this theory a lot</b>
body:
i'm not quite sure I believe it, but I certainly like the approach.  It's different.  Great job.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">http://www.green-machine.info<br />Making Money Online</font><p></p>


created: 2007-06-14 19:08:02
subject: <b>...</b>
body:
thank you, alydar <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">___________________________<br />i'm a WoThead <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br />___________________________<br />When all else fails, laugh.<br />___________________________<br /><br /><i>Tai'Shar Charleston, S.C.!</i></font><p></p>


created: 2007-06-14 20:14:26
subject: <b>I also like this</b>
body:
I can't say I believe it for sure, but it sounds good. Maybe a little more to back it up will have me sold.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br />Red Sox Fan &amp; Yankee Hater<br />kim: it's too cold there to smell<br /><b>Warder to the wonderful, amusing and ever so smart Elayne_Sedai</b><br />Friends don't let friends read Goodkind<br />My mind isn't always in the gutter, it just has VIP access</font><p><a href="http://tinyurl.com/45t6t" target="_blank">Simply Splendid </a></p><p></p>


created: 2007-06-15 00:46:30
subject: <b>Great stuff</b>
body:
I voted &quot;no&quot; of course but at least this is original and entertaining. Keep it up.<br /><br />I voted no because I just could not see any gain for one of the Chosen to pose as a horse theif that ends up in the back of no-where (up-country Ebou Dar). Besides you can always tell the Chosen - they tend to let out maniacal laughter at the most inappropriate moments and leave restaurants without paying the bill. I have yet to witness these behavioural traits in Vanin. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />BTW didn't Jordan say that we have not seen Demandred's alter-ego yet? Or was it more along the lines of the character Demandred is posing as is not a major character?<br /><br />Again keep the theories coming.


created: 2007-06-15 08:14:38
subject: <b>re: mickeydee</b>
body:
i think (i'll have to look around but when i find it i'll post) that RJ had said that we hadn't seen Demandred's alter ego yet but then at a book signing or a con or something related to, preceding, or following Knife of Dreams, he said something about having seen the character but not in relation to it being Demandred. i'll look around for this and post a link when i find it.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">___________________________<br />i'm a WoThead <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br />___________________________<br />When all else fails, laugh.<br />___________________________<br /><br /><i>Tai'Shar Charleston, S.C.!</i></font><p></p>


created: 2007-06-15 08:33:47
subject: <b>detective work</b>
body:
i found the quote in question that made me think of this (at least i believe this is the quote) and i remembered his answer wrong. here is the quote, found at http://www.steelypips.org/wotfaq/1_dark/1.1_forsaken1/1.1.5_taimandred.html<br /><br /><i>    Q: &quot;Have we yet seen the alter ego Demandred presents to the Third Agers on-screen?&quot;<br /><br />    A: &quot;No.&quot; (I asked twice to make sure.)<br /><br />[Michael Martin, Dayton OH signing]</i><br /><br />i checked on the date of this signing, and found it to be Oct. 21, 2005 (thanks dragonmount.com!).<br />i also checked the date of publication of KoD and found it as Oct. 11, 2005. <br />so i suppose the debate is, when RJ made that statement, was he assuming that <i>most</i> people hadn't read book 11 in the intervening 10 days, or at least finished it, and his answer of no was in regards to that opinion? or was his answer &quot;no, i have not written about demandred's position in any published work ever&quot; ???<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">___________________________<br />i'm a WoThead <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br />___________________________<br />When all else fails, laugh.<br />___________________________<br /><br /><i>Tai'Shar Charleston, S.C.!</i></font><p></p>


created: 2007-06-15 23:05:37
subject: <b>No, but I applaud the originality</b>
body:
I suppose that says it all.  On another note, has anyone else been wondering how the hell Masema managed to escape Perrin's little trap?  I've come to suspect that Demandred made an appearance at that little battle and helped Masema get out with his skin attached.  I mean really, no matter how crazy they are, what chance do 500 Dragonsworn have of cutting their way to safety through an army of Aiel (even defeated Aiel)?  They had to have help. <br /><br />Also, to whoever mentioned it, good catch about Mat's medallion and its implications.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Funny thing about weekends when you're unemployed, they don't mean quite so much...except you get to hang out with your working friends.&quot;<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2007-06-16 00:57:52
subject: <b>Mat's ter'angreal</b>
body:
Mat's foxhead is actually immune to both saidin and saidar, because in one of the books Aran'gar made Mat's foxhead go cold, so I'm afraid all OP doesn't work on Mat anymore.<br /><br />By the way Ravhin, killed Mat because he indirectly killed him by using saidin to create lightining which killed him.<br /><br />Otherwise I don't agree with the thing that Demandred is Vanin, he is himself.


created: 2007-06-16 19:21:28
subject: <b>There's not a chance of Vanin being Demandred</b>
body:
First, there's a quote from RJ that confirms that we haven't seen Demandred using an alter ego on-screen. Vanin had appeared in the story long before than quote.<br /><br />At this point, it is most likely that <i>he doesn't have one</i>, no more than he claimed a territory openly.<br /><br />As for the idea that Demandred could be an expert horse-thief : come on guys, think with your head! Vanin is just Vanin and has the skills he pretends to have. It's worse than a poor idea - it's complete nonsense.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="images/personalsmilies/30778.gif" />Wheel of Time Reference Library : Articles, maps, charts and misc.<img src="images/personalsmilies/30778.gif" /><br /><br /></font><p><a href="http://13depository.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">The Thirteenth Depository - a Wheel of Time Blog</a></p><p></p>


created: 2007-06-19 00:30:19
subject: <b>Why not<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smackhead.gif" border="0" /></b>
body:
Really, it's about as good as any other Demandred theory<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Asmodean:  You?  No!<br /><br />Ruarc:  Sorry!  Sometimes I forget to wear pants!<br /><br />        -Isam's WoT Summaries</font><p></p>


created: 2007-06-19 19:00:54
subject: <b>I know it isn't...</b>
body:
But for some reason I always likened Demandred with Rhadam Asunawa, the Whitecloak High Inquisitor. I'm not going to say that they are one, but hey, it's almost as likely as Demandred being Vanin.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Of course you should fight fire with fire! You should fight EVERYTHING with fire!<br /><br />-Al'Gai, the Son of Battle<br />A.K.A. Anaro Ravenclaw,<br />Technomancer for the next Millenium <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/borg.gif" border="0" /><br />Revenant Bounty Hunter Extroidinaire <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2007-06-20 17:43:35
subject: <b>More likely a future Warder</b>
body:
If you notice..and I am not going to be able to cite anything right now..but RJ seems to make comments about Vanin that fit with how he describes Warders of every shape and size.  I think comparing him to Demandred is more than a stretch, but maybe he will someday be a Warder...perhaps Elayne's 3rd??


created: 2007-06-28 09:41:05
subject: <b>It's about as likely as Verin being Demandred</b>
body:
Seriously.  I think Demandred is out to kill the 3 Ta'veren, so why wouldn't he have had Mat killed by now?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Killing is as easy as dying, any fool can do either.<br /><br />The Cake is a Lie.</font><p></p>


created: 2007-06-29 13:07:58
subject: <b>Weiramon is Demandred</b>
body:
The High Lord Weiramon is Demandred. I submitted a theory, but   apparently it was lacking in wordiness and ubiquitousness, and therefore did not get posted. Pay close attention to the state of Wieremons clothing when reading passages. Always clean and sparkling. Rand is caught off guard by it after routing the Seanchan in TPoD- Chapter 23 Fog of War,Storm of Battle<br /><br />   &quot;...Mud liberally decorated Rand's coat, yet surprisingly, Weiramon appeared as pristine as he had back on Silver Road.....How had he managed?&quot; <br /><br />I'll tell you how ... Saidin. RJ makes it almost a ritual to point out that only those who channel have unsullied clothing in situations where they should not.I would throw in a ton of other quotes to help this along.....but I assume you all did read the series, can call them up on your own.Maybe if I rewrite my theory to ten pages I can get it posted.<br />   May you find water and shade this day.


created: 2007-06-29 20:15:13
subject: <b>Um, no</b>
body:
Vanin is Demandred?  I'd have to say no.  He's just a fat slob of a horse thief who's surprisingly stealthy and for some reason comes off as intimidating.  He is a cool character though.<br /><br />Still is a better theory than any of the infinite variations on Taimandred.<br /><br />Or Norrydred.<br /><br />Or Weiradred.<br /><br />


created: 2007-07-10 00:07:07
subject: <b>I hope you weren't sderious...</b>
body:
Or at least you were drunk and/or stoned when you came up with this.  Vanin is just he best horsethief that anyone has ever seen.  Period.<br /><br />Why is it that anyone who is secretive, has unexpected talents, or is disliked is automatically a forsaken in disguise?  It's almost as bad as Verin being a forsaken or Corianin Neadle or however you spell her name.<br /><br />Asunawa being a forsaken, or at least a new dreadlord who was taught how to disguise himself, makes some since given the fact that he's pushing the Whitecloaks in directions that he wants and has been reading &quot;Whitecloaks for Beginners.&quot;


created: 2007-11-01 13:50:22
subject: <b>I disagree</b>
body:
Yeah...I don't think Vanin is Demandred...the post was good and it did make me think, though...I think Vanin may have been a warder in the past, or will be one in the future, or something, and I believe that is why he is so stealthy and stuff (notice that the shying away was from both Lan and Vanin)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">-A Revolution without dancing is a revolution not worth having-<br />-How many people do you know who can do this?  What about this?  Okay, well, there's gotta be something I can do that you've never seen before!-</font><p></p>


created: 2007-07-05 12:42:44
subject: <b>The first was interesting...</b>
body:
But I disagree that the darkhounds killed him. However, I agree that Asmodean was still able to command the darkhounds to leave. Good find, but <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/thumbsdown.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2007-07-05 14:16:03
subject: <b>I second the first comment</b>
body:
That sounds kind of odd doesn't it?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Funny thing about weekends when you're unemployed, they don't mean quite so much...except you get to hang out with your working friends.&quot;<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2007-07-05 18:08:25
subject: <b>I wished you hadn't made it jokey at the end</b>
body:
While I doubt he could really defend himself well against a darkhound and I love the idea that he was killed by shadowspawn I just doubt that he would say &quot;you&quot; to a darkhound.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where did these Skimmers come from?  I mean if they didn't want to read the book they could have just Traveled to another author.  Why risk arriving at the wrong destination?  Why risk falling into darkness?</font><p></p>


created: 2007-07-06 05:28:07
subject: <b>No</b>
body:
Although Asmodean's death has been a bone of contention over which wotmaniacs have been squabbling like dogs, I'm afraid this piece of doggrel makes me growl. It simply does not have the woof factor. Of course, if the Dark Hounds were like Morley, the dog with ADHD as per &quot;Morley and Me&quot; fame, then of course they may have licked Asmodean to death.<br />No my friend. No Darkhounds here. I KNOW who killed Asmo.<br /><br /><br />It was RJ!! <br />Asmo was demanding to much of a cut in the book profits and wanted more of a starring role. RJ refused but things finally got ugly when Asmo's POV started becoming more interesting than anyone elses. For the sake of Wotmanity, RJ had to do it. He had to I tell you (Harriet was on his case too)!


created: 2007-07-06 05:51:30
subject: <b>This is Patently Ridiculous....</b>
body:
Look for all the rudimentally disabled out there it was Graendal. Simply put when you apply occum's razor to both theories the Darkhound argument falls butchered to the floor. What do we know about Asmo's killer? It was made obvious that Asmo was done in by fire or Balefire by someone he reconized instantly. Also we know it took place in a wine closet in the royal palace in Caemlyn after a confrontation with Rahvin. Now for it to have been the Darkhounds we have to ASSUME that 1. they were even there, which there is no evidence of whatsoever. 2. that the Darkhounds from Rhuidean were under the control of Rahvin, which once again there is no evidence of whatsoever. 3. That Asmo could be killed by Darkhounds, not out of the ball park but still requires a leap of faith. 4. That Asmo would not have been able to detect and avoid the aforementioned Darkhounds, which he likely would have been able to (Smell of sulfur, tracks on a stone floor, the feeling of &quot;wrongness&quot; that channelers feel when in proximity to shadowspawn, granted his former ties to the D.O. may offset this but we have no reason to believe it does.) 5. That the Darkhounds sent to Rhuidean were sent to eliminate Asmo rather than just observe him which we will never know as they were restricted by Rand's warding. 6. That Asmo was able to gain control over the Darkhounds that may or may not have been sent to kill him. 7. That the Darkhounds were somehow able to use fire to kill Asmo, an ability they have never exhibited anywhere in the books. 8. That the Darkhounds would completely devour Asmo's body (Very few animals choose to prey on humans, apparently we taste terrible, I am sure R.J. is as aware of this fact as anyone else) including the bones which would have no nutritional value and would be difficult to digest. 9. That somehow the Darkhounds were able to inhabit the palace AND escape without Rand or Avienda's detecting anything. On the other hand the only assumption necessary to accuse Graendel is that she was in the palace. We know she could avoid detection, utilize fire as an effective weapon, has ample reason to want to eliminate Asmo, and would be recognized by her victim instantly, as well as the ablitiy to erase any evidence of what happened. Lastly we know that she was more than powerful enough to actually do the deed. For those of you not aquainted with the concept of occum's razor it is the basis of methodological reductionism, or more simply it states that when faced with two equally predicitve theories the one that requires the fewest assumptions is the one most likely to be accurate. It is a standard taught and used in every field of legitimate scientific research. It all comes down to having to make nine assumptions as opposed to only making one.


created: 2007-07-06 06:34:49
subject: <b>Absolutely</b>
body:
I agree with the above. Hokum's barber says it was RJ.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/clown.gif" border="0" />


created: 2007-07-06 12:16:29
subject: <b>no</b>
body:
at first I couldn't even tell if this serious or meant to be funny - Darkhounds did not kill Asmodean. Not only does it not make sense, but DH could not walk freely in the palace without leaving footprints everywhere (there are stone floors in a palace) and being sensed by the number of channelers around).<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Need a book to read - check out my blog for ideas.</font><p><a href="http://nethspace.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">Neth Space</a></p><p></p>


created: 2007-07-06 14:41:52
subject: <b>Two fatal flaws in your theory</b>
body:
- Darkhounds would have left paw prints all over the place in a palace.<br /><br />- Darkhounds don't kill instantly. Asmodean was killed so fast that &quot;his words still hung in the air when dead took him&quot;. Very little short of balefire or another instant-killing weave (stopping his heart etc.) could do that. <br /><br />A third :<br /><br />- Why would Asmodean be able to redirect the Darkhounds in Rhuidean but unable to do so in Caemlyn?<br /><br />A fourth :<br /><br />- We don't even know that all Shadospawn obey the Chosen's Mark. All we know is that Aginor devised this for the gholam, from a natural characteristic observed in the Myrddraal.<br /><br />We also don't know that the darkhounds that circled Asmodean's place aren't the same ones who went after either Mat or Rand and got killed.  The circumstances depicted suggested Asmodean may not have woken up. The DH may have been attracted by the wards set around the place, before estimating that it was the wrong target that was behind them.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="images/personalsmilies/30778.gif" />Wheel of Time Reference Library : Articles, maps, charts and misc.<img src="images/personalsmilies/30778.gif" /><br /><br /></font><p><a href="http://13depository.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">The Thirteenth Depository - a Wheel of Time Blog</a></p><p></p>


created: 2007-07-06 17:23:59
subject: <b>I hate to assume too much....</b>
body:
but I'm thinking perhaps this was meant for the &quot;Humorous Theory&quot; section?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2007-07-06 18:50:10
subject: <b>It was Moiraine</b>
body:
It was one of her wishes when she was dealing with the fins.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2007-07-07 14:56:37
subject: <b>Geez</b>
body:
I can not believe an admin let this through.  First of all this theory has so many holes in it the DO could walk through it. Secondly I can't believe my theory that Perrin is actually the Dragon Reborn didn't go through...geez.  If they let this through... (i could use those WOT points...seems like their just given em away now)...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">YodasFather<br /><br />There are only 10 types of people in the world - those who understand binary, and those who don't.</font><p></p>


created: 2007-07-07 15:58:25
subject: <b>It's Demandred! Sheesh!</b>
body:
&quot;We don't even know that all Shadospawn obey the Chosen's Mark. All we know is that Aginor devised this for the gholam, from a natural characteristic observed in the Myrddraal.&quot;<br /><br />Moridin says a renegade ordered an army of Shadowspawn to attack Rand in KoD, and it was made pretty clear that you had to be of the Chosen in order to do something like that.  (If all you had to do was be a powerful, scary channeller in order to make Shadowspawn do what you want, Rand would be commanding them by now.)<br /><br /><br />&quot;The DH may have been attracted by the wards set around the place, before estimating that it was the wrong target that was behind them.&quot;<br /><br />I think whoever sent the Darkhounds (Sammael being the obvious candidate) would have been gunning for Rand's guide to saidin, too.  They all knew he had pretty much defected by that time, and they seemed nervous now that someone could really teach him.<br /><br /><br />Anywho.<br /><br />To me, at least, it clearly wasn't Graendal, since we have a lot of her POV after the fact, and she never hints at it.<br /><br />I always just assumed it was Demandred.  We have so little of his POV that it makes it easy to conceal an outright indictment.  That, and his proxy, Taim, shows up almost instantly in the next book!  (Sammael's statement about Demandred's &quot;friends&quot; encroaching on his territory sealed the deal for me on his involvement behind Taim and the Black Tower: Ordinary Darkfriends would not be any sort of threat to Sammael, but Asha'man Travelling about and recruiting channellers would.  That, and all three of that alliance have attached themselves to groups that either are or control channellers.)


created: 2007-07-07 19:34:15
subject: <b>an interesting theory</b>
body:
but im not so sure. i wont repeat what everyone above me has said, but i have one thing to add. Yes, it does make sense that the cords could be protection from the taint, but this is a bit wide of an assumption.<br /><br />and to everyone who is saying &quot;no, you're wrong because it was actually ____ and heres why:&quot; this message board is about this theory. if you want to post your own, go ahead.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">-Sabin<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2007-07-07 21:30:03
subject: <b>What?......?.....?</b>
body:
First of all I totally want to agree with Sabin about the whole go post your own theory thing.<br />Secondly, you people all put out these absurdly complicated reasons why this cannot be. All it takes is one:<br />Don't you think a servant would just POSSIBLY notice a giant dog slathering acid spit all over their larders when it also just HAPPENS to reek of evil?<br />Maybe I have some sort of warder-like observing ability, but if I were them I think that might clue me in.<br /><br />No, this was not in the least sarcastic, you morons.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Most Magnificent Master of Metaphors<br />&quot;Take life by the horns. Then when its thrashing around--castrate it!&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2007-07-07 23:34:52
subject:
<b>This was meant to be a joke right<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perplexed.gif" border="0" /></b>

body:
And to everyone posting &quot;No, it was _____&quot;, you're all wrong anyway!<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br />So you don't really think it was darkhounds do you GF?<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Asmodean:  You?  No!<br /><br />Ruarc:  Sorry!  Sometimes I forget to wear pants!<br /><br />        -Isam's WoT Summaries</font><p></p>


created: 2007-07-08 08:00:56
subject: <b>Alright.......</b>
body:
Just because some of you trolls are too dumb to get the arguments posted by me or others doesn't give you license to trash us. This theory is first class S**T, and the dude who conceived it should be ashamed. Also I doubt the author meant it in jest, to me it looked like he really tried to sell us this piece of crap. I have sent in theories far more credible than this one as have many others and been denied points. This just goes to show that the Admins on this site are just as idiotic as most of the users.


created: 2007-07-08 10:01:51
subject: <b>lighten up</b>
body:
Hey Guys, lighten up a little. Whether intended to be humerous or not, this theory got through and the author has the right to be treated with respect. No need for flaming or vituperation. I too have submitted theories that weren't published. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/frown.gif" border="0" /> So what? I love the WOT; great series of books in a fantasy world. A FANTASY world. Everything that comes under WOT needs to be taken with a pinch of salt and a smile.


created: 2007-07-08 11:03:30
subject: <b>You know marekj........</b>
body:
You're right, not about the respect thing but yeah I should cut the guy some slack. My angst should be directed where it belongs, at the Admins for letting it through. The theory is crap, whether viewed as serious or humor it's a failure but thats not what gets me. I have read so many posts where people are complaining about their theories being rejected, a problem I have come up against myself. The other day I was on the site and it said that there were 4 theories pending, and this was the one they picked. I find it very hard to believe that they could have been much worse than this one. I should not have taken my frustration on some poor hapless slob, it wasn't his fault so for that I apologize. I'm just sick of nonsense like &quot;Vanin=Demandred?&quot; and &quot;Moridin is Homosexual&quot; I mean who picks these theories? Are these the best they've got? I really hope not because if they are shame on us the users.


created: 2007-07-08 15:36:53
subject: <b>ah but they do inspire discusion</b>
body:
and perhaps that is the true reason for posting them.  I alos at first thought this belonged as a humorous post (and I did find it amusing in spots), but agree with it or not, this is the 19th bulletin board entry concerning it.  not too shabby.  so perhaps, that is the reason it was selected, but i am not an admin, i do not truly know<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">---from the island of dr.bong---<br />---the tintinabulations are only temporary---</font><p></p>


created: 2007-07-08 22:40:59
subject: <b>perhaps not the best theory, but come on...</b>
body:
my god, people find the silliest things to get upset about. and deadblack, thanks for that brilliant definition of occam's razor. its just so hard to find a person that&#8217;s willing to explain that kind of thing to us ignorant thralls without drenching it in pretentious bullsh*t. hats off to you, really. I think I speak for the group when I say we are all VERY impressed with your superior knowledge and sophistication.<br /><br />did darkhounds kill asmodean... no, i dont think they did. but i was entertained by the theory, and it is fairly original. ends up falling short of convincing, to me at least, but i appreciate the effort. lets try not to run people down whose humble desire is to present a simple theory to our group.


created: 2007-07-09 00:15:03
subject: <b>A theory for the theory boards</b>
body:
What makes a theory acceptable to our vaunted board?  Many theories fall to the wayside forgotten and forlorn and if they were not saved in our own computers beforehand, deleted without a trace.<br /><br />A theory needs certain basic things to become a Theory and not just some theory.<br /><br />First of all it needs to be written in good language.  Give your spell checker a chance and why not bother to reread it as well?  A Theory will be saved for prosperity. It needs to be wrapped properly<br /><br />Secondly, and this is very important, it needs quotes. Quotes make the difference between empty words and hard fact. If you want to prove that WoT and Star Wars are ones, give a quote! They show you care enough to look them up and give us a chance to judge for our self if you're right.<br /><br />Thirdly and this is a must, it must have originality to it. Did Greandel kill Asmodean? We can find out all about it in the FAQ. Give those rusty gears in your head a shake and let the Theory Board bloom.<br /><br />Fourthly, there should be something interesting in your theory. Is your topic captivating? A few brown ajah may find your theory on the yellowness of Fal Daran flowers captivating but would we? Bend a bit and give the public interest an ear.<br /><br />Fifthly, You've gotta have flare. Either your theory got it or it doesn't. Let's hear it for flare. Mat's got it, do you?<br /><br />Checking &quot;Asmodean, the true story&quot; I believe it got all of those. The spell checker been put through the grinder, the quoting goddess been eased with bountiful offerings, the originality has been unquestioningly and most satisfactorily been satisfied, the public interest, well, what is more interesting to us than the mystery of Asmodean's death? You can argue about the theory's flare but you must agree that it is daring and innovative. What more can you ask?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'My name is a Guttering Flame, king of kings:<br />Look on my works, ye Mighty, and despair!'<br /><br />Every great journey begins with at least one small crunched snail.<br /><br />Agree, Disagree or don't give a damn?<br />That is indeed the question.<br /><br /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smackhead.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/crazy.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2007-07-09 03:39:11
subject: <b>In defence of Mr Occam</b>
body:
First of all, where is the evidence for an Asmodean's death by fire? There is none. Nor for a death by balefire. There is no evidence in the books for either one. No scorch marks (or a burned palace for that matter), or distinctive cylindrical holes in the basement walls. The DO himself never remarked on &quot;ASMODEAN, CONSUMED BY FIRES, AS HE DESERVED.&quot; Nothing, naddah. <br /><br />Now what do we know about Darkhound? They never give up their prey once they started the hunt. Facing them or finding running water to separate you from them might seem like a good idea but as we saw in the book, these solutions are very much temporary at best. The Darkhounds that chased Perrin and his friends out of Illian in tDR were not deterred by the rain that fell on the land between them and their prey and going by the Darkhounds Perrin meets in CoT these hounds just keep on going no matter what obstacles separate them from their prey. Facing them and kiiling them in single combat is not very helpful either. Rand tries to do that in Rhuidean and he failed miserably. In short, once they have your scent in their nostrils drastic measures have to be taken to get rid of them.<br /><br />The hounds that went after Asmodean were not harmed. They went to his door and then retreated. Could they be the same ones that Rand kills himself in the Maiden building or the ones that attacked Mat? That doesn't make much sense. We know Darkhound packs regularly run to about 10 or 12 and if there were only those who attacked Rand and Mat we only have half that. Also, a simultaneous attack on all three would have had the best chance of succeeding. If they started by going to Asmodean's quarters and only then went in search of the others the risk of detection would be much greater. There doesn't seem to be a shortage in Darkhounds for the DO's forces. Why not add a few to make the mission more successful?<br /><br />The idea that they couldn't pass the weave that Rand used to imprison Asmodean is a no show either. We are repeatedly told throughout the books that a warding can only bar one type of thing from passing (or detect it). The warding Moiraine created in SL against its taint couldn't prevent Trollocs and Myrdrael from marching right through it into their inn. The wardings Moiraine and Rand weave at various times to hide their locations cannot prevent shadow creatures from entering their campsites once they know where they are. The warding Rand set around Asmodean in Rhuidean was set to prevent male channelers from passing. Darkhounds would have had no problem going through it. Rand himself believes they would have killed him already when he goes to check it out. So there was nothing to prevent the darkhounds to do as they pleased with Asmodean.<br /><br />The only other somewhat credible option is that they only went there to spy on Asmodean, or to give him some message. Is that reasonable? Why would Rhavin and his friends want to keep Asmodean alive? Why would anyone from the Dark side want to? He was a traitor giving vital information to their enemy. If they sent assassins to him, they would have used them to the best effect to kill him. Sammael, Rhavin and the others all say they want to kill him. Only Lanfear could possibly want to continue to help Rand but she already gave  him the opportunity to teach Rand the basics of using the force. She doesn't want Rand to become too powerful. She likes him in his current weak position where she can control him. If anyone sent the dark hounds to Asmodean they would have also given them the orders to kill him.<br /><br />Why don't they kill him? As I explained in the theory, his status as a forsaken lets him distract the darkhounds with commands of his own. This supports the idea that one of Lanfear's cabal sent them. They believe Rand's claims that Asmodean is no longer a forsaken and think the darkhounds would no longer listen to him.<br /><br />Do we know that they came from Rhavin? We learned in KoD that shadowspawn cannot pass through gateways. They have to tread the land from the point of their origins to the point of destination like ordinary mortals. (I have some doubts whether they can manipulate the avendesorah leaves on the doors of the Ogier Ways with their teeth and we never see them interacting with trollocs or myrdraels so I think we can dismiss that option.)<br /><br />Rhavin had the closest base to Rand's position and we know he had plenty of shadowspawn there so he is the likely source of the hounds.<br /><br />How about Darkhound's geas to obey the Chosen? We know the Darkhounds at Illian obeyed Sammael's orders when they hunted down Perrin, Moiraine and their group. The Darkhounds at Rhuidean were also following somebody's orders. The fact that myrdraal obey the Chosen's orders is not some personal quirk, it is the general rule with Chosen and Shadowspawn. The Chosen receive with their mark from the DO a kind of kinship to him. When they speak, it seem to the shadowspawn like the DO give them orders. RRAFO (reread and find out).<br /><br />Now the efficiency and speed of the Darkhounds  is nothing to laugh about. It may take a minute or two for a drop of their saliva to kill you if it only touches your unbroken skin but it takes only a second for them to leap to your throat and rip it out. They can easily kill you before you have time to say &quot;You? No!&quot; Did they leave crunched bones in the wine cellars of the Caemlin palace? maybe they did. Rand never asks the palace servants about him or order any search for clues to what happened to him. He just assumes he run away. For all we know they threw them out without bothering to tell Rand about it.<br /><br />The footmarks on stone a little more problematic but perhaps they attributed them to the battle with Rhavin which caused all sorts of architectural damage to the palace. They were probably frightened of Rand at first and didn't want to get near him just to ask him strange questions and by the time they got comfortable with him it didn't seem important any more.<br /><br />The simplest explanation is not always the best one. Why is there a storm brewing in the sky? Is it because the warty old hag from down the street gave us the evil eye or is it because complex meteorological factors combined to create it?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'My name is a Guttering Flame, king of kings:<br />Look on my works, ye Mighty, and despair!'<br /><br />Every great journey begins with at least one small crunched snail.<br /><br />Agree, Disagree or don't give a damn?<br />That is indeed the question.<br /><br /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smackhead.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/crazy.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2007-07-09 12:02:50
subject: <b>I was wondering...</b>
body:
regarding the last post about wards and their uses.  What if a female channeler like Moiraine or Lanfear placed a protective ward around Asmodean's lair?  Two wards, both woven of saidar or saidin may well make each other useless but that doesn't necessarily mean that two wards using opposite powers couldn't co-exist.  Both Moiraine and Lanfear knew who Asmodean was and how he might be useful for their own plans.  It's not out of the question that they would expect Shadowspawn attacks and do something to guard against them.  I think it's a definite possibility that Lanfear did something and I don't think its out the question that Moiraine would.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Funny thing about weekends when you're unemployed, they don't mean quite so much...except you get to hang out with your working friends.&quot;<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2007-07-09 16:08:48
subject: <b>A shame</b>
body:
While I did not consider the foot prints on stone thing I found other things to disagree with this theory but clearly it was original and not at all impossible.  I have believed for a long time that Asmodean was not as reformed as we made him out to be.  The fact that Sorilea who by Rands own reckoning is weaker than Asmodean (he's only as strong as an average WO) can demonstrate a gateway and he mysteriously can't without linking leads me to be that he had alterior motives and if nothing else this theory provides us some evidence that Asmodean was indeed still a Forsaken and that what he truly feared was being caught defenseless in his weakened state.  Afterall what was Asmodean's motive for helping Rand in the first place.  Ishamael had had the same black cords severed and he had also died to top it off obviously they aren't that important to the DO.  Teaching Rand is the crime and the longer he continues on teaching the deeper his trechery.<br /><br />Think about it carefully as well, what reason do the others have to kill him.  He is still a Forsaken he could still be appointed above them and they obviously don't know what Lanfear did to him.  The fact is that there are hopes to turn Rand to the DO.   Asmodean may well be working toward that end by helping Rand destroy all his competition and if Semirhage can be patient with her rise to Nae'blis how much more patient might a musician be.<br /><br />If they thought for one instant that he was weak and truly severed from the DO they wouldn't even bother with him unless the DO asked them to.<br /><br />In any case this theory makes it possible to see that Asmodean might still be Forsaken and give us deeper insights into his behaviors and choices.  I personally believe for example that his &quot;need&quot; to link with Rand to &quot;teach&quot; was really a need to destroy the block Lanfear put on his power.  As I have pointed out previosly in control of that link not only could he defend himself but he could deliver a powerless Rand directly to the DO and any punishment he feared could be averted by simply describing it as some elaborate plan of his own making.  So I want to think the writer of this post for considering that fact that Asmodean still had the option of returning to the DO even if I don't agree that the DO were the one's who killed him.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where did these Skimmers come from?  I mean if they didn't want to read the book they could have just Traveled to another author.  Why risk arriving at the wrong destination?  Why risk falling into darkness?</font><p></p>


created: 2007-07-10 11:44:12
subject: <b>Ehh...</b>
body:
&quot;Hey, Darkhounds are COOL!  Maybe THEY did it!?1!eleven!&quot;<br /><br />No, thanks.<br /><br />Can we get a good theory? I'm bored at work.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Killing is as easy as dying, any fool can do either.<br /><br />The Cake is a Lie.</font><p></p>


created: 2007-07-10 14:01:30
subject: <b>The worst part of this theory is....</b>
body:
13% of the bloody people that read it agreed! what kind of sh*t is that! i didn't realize we had so many idiots here. *sigh* i suppose if someone says it, theres always idiots who believe it.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /> There's some delight in ale and wine,<br />and some in girls with ankles fine,<br />but my delight, yes, always mine,<br />is to dance with Jak o' the Shadows. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /><br /> <br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2007-07-12 20:47:58
subject: <b>To marekj</b>
body:
Your first response got my hackles up at first, but after a read through it a   bit  a bark of laughter left my lips. The use of puns, although clearly violating several internationally recognised Human Rights Agrrements, gave me paws to reflect that maybe this theory should not be rabidly torn to shreds.


created: 2007-07-16 12:40:49
subject: <b>vapid theory</b>
body:
A woolheaded lummox is the only one who could come up with an immature theory like this.  Rubbish!<br />


created: 2007-07-17 06:33:23
subject: <b>Is there something new here?</b>
body:
This is just common opinion and a little short at that.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'My name is a Guttering Flame, king of kings:<br />Look on my works, ye Mighty, and despair!'<br /><br />Every great journey begins with at least one small crunched snail.<br /><br />Agree, Disagree or don't give a damn?<br />That is indeed the question.<br /><br /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smackhead.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/crazy.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2007-07-17 07:22:00
subject: <b>Lacks imagination and misses some of the obvious....</b>
body:
It's easy to suggest that Elaida and her followers will be among those cast out during the &quot;purge&quot;, but this is doubtful, IMO. For one thing, if Egwene is eventually made the sole Amyrlin, she will not want to let go of any AS that are true to the Light, nor can she afford to with Tarmon Gai'don at the doorstep. So, while Elaida might have a hard time adjusting to not being in command, perhaps she will learn from Egwene's example, and find herself actually helping the cause instead of being a cancer, and doing so from a lesser position. The <i>&quot;remnants cast out and scorned&quot;</i> will be the Black Ajah.<br /><br />As for <i>&quot;Rand al'Thor will face the Amyrlin Seat and know her anger.&quot;</i>, Egwene is already mad at Rand because she thinks he compelled Sisters to join him and bonded them against their will. She has leaped to the wrong conclusion and will give him an earful about it when they meet.<br /><br /><i>&quot;The Black Tower will be rent in blood and fire, and sisters will walk its grounds.&quot;</i> Part of this has already occurred, since Logain and his followers captured the AS Elaida sent. So sisters have been walking the grounds of the BT ever since. It's questionable that Egwene will be in control of the WT before the BT has seen its rebellion/cleansing. It's just as likely the sisters already present at the BT and Logain's followers will purge the BT of Dark Friends before Egwene meets Rand.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2007-07-17 12:59:47
subject: <b>Sry...no</b>
body:
As &quot;Light in the Night&quot; said, the sisters are already walking the tower grounds.  As for it being &quot;rent in blood and fire&quot; this could either a)Not have happened yet b)this is relating to the many deaths that has happened from training or c) Taim's treachery is &quot;hypothetically&quot; tearing the tower apart resulting in two factions. Logan's and Taims...but we all know about Logan's Halo.  That's about all I have to say about that.  As for &quot;The White Tower will be whole again, except for remnants cast out and scorned, whole and stronger than ever.&quot; I would say this happens from Egwene bringing in all channelers from the Kin, etc., I think this all means bringing in male channelers. &quot;Whole again&quot;, doensn't neccessarily mean from this age.  Obviously(hopefully RJ makes this happen otherwise I look like an idiot) the remnants are Elaida's supporters along with a few black I suppose.  I do find it intersting that the foretelling states, &quot;Rand al'Thor will face the Amyrlin Seat and know her anger.&quot; Rand al Thor, not The Dragon...interesting. (This leads me to question the relevancey and accuracy of this foretelling, often wondered if Elaida took some lessons in drama) Sure this could mean exactly what you say or something else, this part of the foretelling doesn't grab me enough to even care though.  So...that's about all I have to say about that.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">YodasFather<br /><br />There are only 10 types of people in the world - those who understand binary, and those who don't.</font><p></p>


created: 2007-07-17 13:25:39
subject: <b>I agree...</b>
body:
But only because this seems to be an already universally accepted idea, not a new theory. Sorry.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2007-07-17 15:49:47
subject: <b>Nothing really new here</b>
body:
I agree with Light in the Night and the comments above. This is really just a very, very brief reiteration of what has already been mooted.<br />As I understand it, when Elaida fortells something it is pretty much set in stone, although not necessarily in the way expected.<br />With regard to the Tower being stronger than ever, surely this will be with the addition of the Kin and other channelers. It will also no longer be divided and suspicious and jumping at shadows. Elaida is surely not going to be banished. She is after all not a dark friend and is a powerful channeler and would be far to much of an asset to lose.<br />Poor Rand will face the anger of many women, not just the Amyrlin.<br />With regard to the Black Tower, it is already rent (two factions) and Aes Sedai already walk its grounds. I'm not sure that Logain will win against Taim, but the Black Tower will be no more. My personal guess is that in the end the White Tower will end up being where ALL Aes Sedai train and have their home. Male Amyrlin anyone?


created: 2007-07-17 22:59:59
subject: <b>Very obvious</b>
body:
Below is a quote from the FAQ on this site:<br /><br />&quot;    The White Tower will be whole again, except for remnants cast out and scorned, whole and stronger than ever. Rand al'Thor will face the Amyrlin Seat and know her anger. The Black Tower will be rent in blood and fire, and sisters will walk its grounds. This I Foretell.&quot;<br /><br />    -A Crown of Swords, Prologue: Lightnings<br /><br />Elaida, rather typically, interpreted this to mean that she would defeat the rebels, face down Rand, and destroy the Black Tower. However, recent events suggest that this is not in fact the case. This Foretelling is equally likely to mean that Egwene will win the Tower, and with the Black Ajah being hunted down, that the &quot;remnants cast out and scorned&quot; will be some or all of the Red Ajah and/or die-hard Elaida supporters. Egwene will tell Rand off for having sisters swear to obey him. Sister s are walking the grounds of the Black Tower: while those Bonded to Asha&#8217;man have gone to Arad Doman and Illian (Knife of Dreams, News for the Dragon), some Reds have arrived to negotiate with Taim and the rebels plan to also (Knife of Dreams, Call to a Sitting and Epilogue). The tensions building between Taim&#8217;s and Logain&#8217;s factions will reach boiling point sooner if not later.&quot;


created: 2007-07-17 23:40:40
subject: <b>hmmm</b>
body:
&quot;This I Foretell.&quot; - I think that means she foretold it. <br /><br />^Quite possibly the greatest thought process I've ever seen. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Seriously though, the other guys are quite harsh about this theory. Thank you for your take on this.


created: 2007-07-18 00:09:06
subject: <b>eghh, sorry to bother</b>
body:
Ahh, I'm sorry that my opinion is different on this, but thanks for commenting. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br />I appreciate your comment, Syckma, haha.<br /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smackhead.gif" border="0" />Elycia<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smackhead.gif" border="0" /><br />


created: 2007-07-19 07:15:40
subject: <b>already walking</b>
body:
Sisters are already walking the grounds of the BT, right? Though, not after it being destroyed, of course. Yet. But it doesn't mean sisters will do the destroying...


created: 2007-07-19 09:41:00
subject: <b>hmmm</b>
body:
we seem to be getting a bit desperate to have new theories.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Need a book to read - check out my blog for ideas.</font><p><a href="http://nethspace.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">Neth Space</a></p><p></p>


created: 2007-07-19 10:30:58
subject: <b>Re: Sckma and Elycia Sedai</b>
body:
I didn't think I was being harsh, just saying that I thought the theory was lacking in depth. Basically, the author took a quoted Foretelling and translated it literally. Nothing really wrong with that, it's just that Foretellings usually aren't that straightforward. <br /><br />I would compare this author's interpretation to Elaida's translation of another known Foretelling of hers, <i>&quot;The Royal line of Andor holds the key to defeating the Dark One in the Last Battle.&quot;</i> While Elaida thinks this means house Trakand, we have every reason to believe it actually refers to Rand. So, while Elaida had access to insider information, she bought the wrong stock. It's not always as simple as it appears.<br /><br />P.S.~ Don't apologize for your theory. I would suggest spending some time perusing the FAQ here at the site and some time at the MB as well. Both will be enlightening to your perception of the story.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2007-07-19 13:24:08
subject: <b>wrongo</b>
body:
the sisters walking the ground, are the sisters either bonding asha'men or those that were bonded by them. the blood and fire will most likely be from logain taking control of the tower from taim<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> Shara is actually inhabited by bannanas <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /> The Band of the Red Hand is made of Ninjas like Mat<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /><br />Narg+Bela= Nela!<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/w00t.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /> ;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bela.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2007-07-22 16:31:21
subject: <b>Not really adding anything...</b>
body:
But I'm pretty sure the BT is &quot;rent in blood and fire&quot; almost everyday. It's a training ground for living weapons, right? And, of course, accidents do happen.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Of course you should fight fire with fire! You should fight EVERYTHING with fire!<br /><br />-Al'Gai, the Son of Battle<br />A.K.A. Anaro Ravenclaw,<br />Technomancer for the next Millenium <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/borg.gif" border="0" /><br />Revenant Bounty Hunter Extroidinaire <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2007-07-23 12:50:49
subject: <b>whole and stronger than ever?</b>
body:
I agree with marekj that the Tower being whole and stronger than ever probably means that Egwene will bring in other groups of female channelers. This would definately make it stronger, but I think whole implies she will bring in the Asha'man as well (like in the AoL when male and female channelers worked together).  Perhaps the Black Tower being rent means part will follow Taim in his evilness and the rest will join the White Tower following... Logian perhaps?  That would bring him glory methinks.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;The world must be dealt with as it is, not as you wish it would be.&quot;<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /> are so better than wetlanders</font><p></p>


created: 2007-07-29 09:52:02
subject: <b>...</b>
body:
This is a Foretelling. All those who are saying things like &quot;sisters are already in the BT&quot; or &quot;the BT is rent in blood every day&quot; seem to be ignoring that. Elaida's Foretellings are always about big and serious things. I haven't seen her Foretell anything like &quot;Rand al'Thor will tie his shoelaces. This I Foretell&quot;, have you?<br /><br />When she says the BT will be rent in blood, it will do exactly what it says on the tin. Rent. In. Blood. <br /><br />And yes, indeed, sisters are already walking its grounds. But that's much too mundane for a Foretelling. After all, sisters walk just about anywhere they damn well please. No. Sisters will be in the BT *after* its rent in blood. Maybe they'll take part in the bloodshed, maybe not. Maybe they'll aid Logain, maybe not.


created: 2007-08-01 15:17:12
subject: <b>Off topic but needs to be noted</b>
body:
...sure is a lot of double posting goin on.<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">YodasFather<br /><br />There are only 10 types of people in the world - those who understand binary, and those who don't.</font><p></p>


created: 2007-08-01 17:51:26
subject: <b>pretty obvious really</b>
body:
the sisters cast out and scorned surely have to be the sisters who have sworn to rand or have let themselves be bonded.<br /><br />the black ajah would not be cast out and scorned it would be destroyed and hunted if revealed.<br /><br />we already know the attitude of red sisters about what has happened in Pevara's PoV in the meeting with tsutama. she believed that the sisters who had sworn would regret surviving the last battle. i assume that it is a similar view throughout the ajahs.<br /><br /><br />sisters walking hte ground of the black tower. hasnt that already happened? sisters have been walking its ground since they were bonding. i think the renting with blood and fire will be more likely taims men agaisnt logains. Aes Sedai wouldnt be much good in a fight agaisnt ashaman, they dont train as weapons and they have to be indanger before they can use the power as a weapon. if the ashaman start shileding them they can sit there and twidle their collective thumbs for all good they are


created: 2007-08-02 17:16:56
subject: <b>Fitting!</b>
body:
It's a very common archetype for a bad guy (or lady in this case) to be brought down by the very thing that they beleived would save them.  My favorite example of this is in That Hidious Strength by C.S. Lewis:  &quot;And He has upon them a frenzy sent, to call in haste for their destroyer.  They have advertized in the papers for one!&quot;


created: 2007-08-12 18:14:38
subject: <b>I agree with some of it</b>
body:
i agree with the rebel victory and all except for the part of sisters walking the grounds of the Black Tower. i think that means the sisters that have been &quot;bonded&quot; by Asha'man


created: 2007-07-18 06:38:45
subject: <b>Congratulations</b>
body:
I will immediately state that on the whole I disagree with your theory. However, it is an interesting and imaginative attempt to answer the old question, &quot;who killed Asmo?&quot;. I also think you may well prove to be correct in that RJ does seem to have a reason as to why this has been kept secret for so long. Perhaps RAFO remains the answer.<br />You made an interesting point as well, although only in passing. By balefiring Rhavin, Rand reversed the deaths of Mat, Asmo and Aviendha. Surely the things Rhavin balefired would have also been repaired? <br />Was the damage Asmo noted caused by balefire, or is it the edge of where a gateway opened? Perhaps worth pondering.<br />One final comment. You state that English is not your first language. You could have fooled me. The Theory was well-written and there was nothing in it to indicate that you are a &quot;bloody foreigner&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br />Well done.


created: 2007-07-18 08:50:21
subject: <b>Thank you</b>
body:
Thank you for your input.<br /><br />I've searched through the books looking for things that LTT and forsaken might have said that could be construed as hints. Here is what I found that could be interpreted that way, nothing explicit though:<br /><br />LoC 133 &#8220; &#8216;You know as much as I do,&#8217; Graendal said blithely, pausing for a sip from her goblet. &#8216;Myself, I think Lews Therin killed them [Asmodean, Lanfear, and Moghedien]. Oh, don&#8217;t grimace at me. Al&#8217;Thor, since you insist.&#8221;&#8221;<br /><br />Graendal supports my theory! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />---<br />&#8220;All I [Graendal]  say is that Lews Therin is as dangerous now as he ever was in our own time. Frightened? Yes, I am frightened. I intend to live forever, not meet Rahvin&#8217;s fate!&#8221;<br /><br />If Graendal is firghtened by LTT, Asmodean would be even more so.<br /><br />---<br />LoC ch 17<br />&#8221; Death rides on my shoulder, Lews Therin muttered. Death walks in my footsteps. I am death.&#8221;<br /><br />Death did take Asmodean. RJ would probably be as appaled by that connection as he were with the moridin=death suggestion.<br /><br />---<br />LoC Ch 21 [LTT is talking about Shadar Logoth]:<br />&#8220;There is darkness here. Blackness blacker than black. If the Dark One chose to live among men, he would choose here. Yes. He would. I must kill Demandred.<br /><br />Rand blinked. Does Demandred have some connection to Shadar Logoth? To here?<br /><br />I remember at last killing Ishamael. There was a sense of wonder in the voice, at a new discovery. He deserved to die. Lanfear deserved to die, too, but I am glad I was not the one to kill her.&#8221;<br /><br />LTT actually talks sanely about killing specific Forsaken. If he has trouble remembering killing Ishy, why not Asmodean too? Not proof though.<br />


created: 2007-07-18 09:48:47
subject: <b>one hit wonder?</b>
body:
I like this theory; particularly for two reasons:<br />1) It explains LTT's absence until LoC.<br />2) It is a good reason for RJ not to reveal the killer.<br /><br />It poses an interesting question, though:<br /><br />What did LTT do after killing Asmo? If he was truly outside of Rand's body until LoC, what other evidence can we see of this? Did LTT do anything else? why would he just kill Asmo and then hang around? I think if you could find annother action/event that pointed to LTT's presence outside of Rand's body it would support this theory alot


created: 2007-07-18 10:47:21
subject: <b>yeah</b>
body:
I've thought about that alot when writing the theory. Several points would need to be adressed.<br /><br />1, How long was LTT outside of Rands body?<br />2, How and why did they reintegrate?<br />3, What caused LTT to leave Rand later in the books. There are two separate occasions he does that I think. What did he do when away? What caused them to reintegrate again? <br /><br />Note that I've never even thought about LTT leaving Rand again until now since the circumstances in my theory are quite special.<br /><br />I have to do some research into LTTs later dissapearances and see if something jumps at me. I'm also working on a LTT POV for Asmodeans death as described in my theory. Most theories seems to be supported by such POVs since one can force any circumstantial evidence into proof when writing it. My theory will benefit greatly I'm sure. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" />


created: 2007-07-18 14:59:05
subject: <b>Question</b>
body:
A question for all the readers:<br />Was my theory as crazy as you first thought when you read that I had LTT as the killer or did parts of it actually make sense?


created: 2007-07-18 19:07:27
subject: <b>this is a really interesting idea</b>
body:
i have to wonder about this. i want to agree with this, but it seems that the splitting of the two would be permanent were it to happen. if your theory is that LTT and Rand became dis-integrated with each other, then how did LTT reintegrate himself with/into Rand? if the initial dis-integration were as dramatic as you're claiming, then the reintegration would have to be similar, and hardly would avoid notice by rand...<br /><br />the other thing that makes me wonder is that, yes, we have seen what TAR can do with split personalities with Isam/Luc but that's a different cconcept. it seems that I/L was distilled and melded, and that he can choose who he will be at any given time and change by shifting from TAR to randland reality. it doesn't seem like isam and luc are sharing a head like LTT and rand are...thoughts and responses?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">___________________________<br />i'm a WoThead <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br />___________________________<br />When all else fails, laugh.<br />___________________________<br /><br /><i>Tai'Shar Charleston, S.C.!</i></font><p></p>


created: 2007-07-18 20:16:14
subject: <b>hell yeah</b>
body:
I really like this theory for a lot of reasons.  Lews Therin had the motive and opportunity if your speculation of his mind becoming seperate from Rand's is true.  I will have to think on this some more but your argument is very well thought out and has sufficient evidence to be considered valid.  What a great new way to look at the old argument, and here i thought all we were ever going to get on this subject again was more about darkhounds........ anyway Lews Therin is the killer hell yeah<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tinfoilhat.gif" border="0" />  Oh no!  The aliens like to eat brains!  Well at least I'm safe. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smackhead.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2007-07-19 02:11:49
subject: <b>meadcd &amp; TimtheTrolloc</b>
body:
Thanks for your input/support!<br />I will speculate about your points one by one:<br /><br />&quot;i want to agree with this, but it seems that the splitting of the two would be permanent were it to happen. if your theory is that LTT and Rand became dis-integrated with each other, then how did LTT reintegrate himself with/into Rand?&quot;<br /><br />Well, we do know that things that happen in TAR are not permanent as has been showed throughout the books on numerous occasions. It stands to reason that even though Rand was there in the flesh, Lews Therin (according to my theory) was not. His body was a mental construct in TAR. Perhaps it started to fade at the very moment he stepped out of TAR?<br /><br />---<br />&quot;if the initial dis-integration were as dramatic as you're claiming, then the reintegration would have to be similar, and hardly would avoid notice by rand...&quot;<br /><br />I direct you to a quote of Lews Therins first apprearance in Rands head after he dissapeared in FoH.<br /><br />&quot;The only way to live is to die. The thought came into his head suddenly. He had been told that once, in such a way he had to believe it, but the thought was not his. I must die. I deserve only death. He turned away from Bashere clutching at his head.<br /><br />Bashere was out of his chair in an instant, clutching Rand&#8217;s shoulder though it was head high to him. &#8220;What is the matter? Did that blow really crack your head?&#8221;<br /><br />&#8220;I am fine.&#8221; Rand pulled his hands down; there was never any pain in this, only the shock of having another man&#8217;s thoughts in his head.&quot;<br /><br />Rand does not usually react this way when Lews Therin speaks. Perhaps the shock was caused by the reintegration? The sudden  prescense (sp?) in his head that immediatly talks to him.<br /><br />Also note that Lews Therin appears after Bashere threw the knife at Rand. Perhaps the danger to Rand made him come back, or the fact that Rand channeled. Rand has commented before that Lews Thering grows stronger as Rands channeling grows stronger.<br /><br />---<br /><br />&quot;it doesn't seem like isam and luc are sharing a head like LTT and rand are...&quot;<br /><br />True enoguh. My point wasn't that the two cases are the same though. My point was that two people can inhabit the same body and switch between them in TAR (in the flesh) and then STEP OUT of TAR with the chosen body. I just see it as a big clue that it's possible for my theory to work. <br /><br />We know that things can be willed into existence in TAR, why not a body to inhabit? We know that Lews Therin has an actuall will, proven by the fact that he can take hold of saidin. He can use that will in TAR as I showed in my theory when Rahvin tried to unmake Rand.'<br /><br />---<br /><br />


created: 2007-07-19 02:30:27
subject: <b>A couple of big problem</b>
body:
First of all why would LTT go after Asmodean? The natural target would have been Rhavin himself. He was on the scene, in TAR where there's at least a chance for LTT to have a body and battling Rand/LTT.<br /><br />Also we can't know for sure that Rhavin had anything to do with Rand turning into LTT. He was in a hallway supposedly alone (unlike the scene in the courtyard where there were plenty of windows for Rhavin to peep from). LTT could just be trying to make an appearance without any help from Rhavin. We see him do it in KoD when he takes control of saidin.<br /><br />You're right of course to suspect a spiritual source as the cause of Asmodean's death but a canine agent is far more likely than a disembodied voice is.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'My name is a Guttering Flame, king of kings:<br />Look on my works, ye Mighty, and despair!'<br /><br />Every great journey begins with at least one small crunched snail.<br /><br />Agree, Disagree or don't give a damn?<br />That is indeed the question.<br /><br /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smackhead.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/crazy.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2007-07-19 03:01:36
subject: <b>guttering flame</b>
body:
&quot;First of all why would LTT go after Asmodean?&quot;<br /><br />Beacuase the opportunity presented itself imo. Asmodean wasn't a target for anyone during the battle with Rahvin since he was dead along with Mat and Avi. Lews Therin and Asmodean would have been a chance encounter.<br /><br />---<br />&quot;The natural target would have been Rhavin himself. He was on the scene, in TAR where there's at least a chance for LTT to have a body and battling Rand/LTT.&quot;<br /><br />Agreed, but Lews Therin is as mad as they come. He might not have realized Rahvin was near. My theory states that Lews Therin left TAR before Rahvin started to attack with the water&amp;fishes and beast transforming. Lews Therin might have been looking for Rahvin, not found him and decided to exit TAR or he might just realize that he is in TAR and decide to exit beacause of the inherit danger. He could also be irrational and delusional and do something completely different. I have no idea. Definatly a weak spot in my theory.<br /><br />---<br />&quot;Also we can't know for sure that Rhavin had anything to do with Rand turning into LTT. He was in a hallway supposedly alone (unlike the scene in the courtyard where there were plenty of windows for Rhavin to peep from).&quot;<br /><br />No. I suspect you think this because Rand reflect that the stand lamps in the hallways are unlit, vases moving and such. Those are just general thoughts about the properties av TAR. This is what happens right before Rand starts to be unmade (by Lews or Rahvin):<br /><br />&quot;It came to him, as he trotted along another colonnade, sensing for Rahvin, that he had not heard the voice crying over Ilyena since he channeled balefire. Perhaps he had somehow chased Lews Therin out of his head.<br /><br />Good. He stopped at the edge of one of the palace gardens. The roses and whitestar bushes looked as drought bedraggled as they would have in the real palace. On some of the white spires rising above the rooftops, the White Lion banner rippled, but which spire could change in the blink of an eye. Good, if I don&#8217;t have to share my head with&#8212;<br /><br />He felt odd. Insubstantial.&quot;<br /><br />He is obviously at the edge of a garden outside, not inside in a hallway.<br /><br />---<br />&quot;a canine agent is far more likely than a disembodied voice is.&quot;<br /><br />Not longer disembodied in my theory though.


created: 2007-07-19 07:33:58
subject: <b>well written but....</b>
body:
It's nice to read a theory that someone took real time to cook up and research. Good work!<br /><br />I have one major problem with the actual content: LTT splitting from Rand to get his own body. I see no reason to beleive this is possible. Jordan has actually said that things created in TAR only exist in TAR.<br /><br />The situation with Isam &amp; Luc is different; Luc is not a reincarnation of Isam. Even though we don't know the details of what happened at this point we do know that Isam somehow took over Luc's body. Even so, as far as I can remember, we only see Isam (could have been Lan's brother) in TAR.<br /><br />


created: 2007-07-19 08:04:02
subject: <b>Nitika</b>
body:
If you could show me the quote where RJ said that, it would be helpful. Rand is there in the flesh , perhaps that would make a difference?


created: 2007-07-19 09:52:22
subject: <b>I'm not going to pick it a part</b>
body:
This is at least a theory worth posting (even if I think it's completely off base). <br /><br />Simply said - LTT did not kill Asmodean. There really is no evidence to support it and the basic assumption that LTT even could is not justified by events in the book up to that time.<br /><br /><i>Lews Therin Killed Him</i> by Highroller is older theory with this same idea, but this one is a bit more in depth. I also covered LTT as suspect in my two theories - <i>Who did it...an 18 suspect matrix-based solution</i> (where I conclude that LTT is only slightly more likely a suspect than Santa Claus) and <i>The Grand Unifying Theory of Asmodean&#8217;s Demise</i>, where a jury of site 'experts' ranks him as the 14th most likely suspect out of a pool of 24 suspects. <br /><br /><br />An interesting effort, but really it doesn't serve any real point (but the does any of this <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />)<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Need a book to read - check out my blog for ideas.</font><p><a href="http://nethspace.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">Neth Space</a></p><p></p>


created: 2007-07-19 11:01:04
subject: <b>excellent riposte</b>
body:
well, regarding your reply, at this point, the only refute i have is &quot;i don't have any arguable proof to dispute your claim&quot; and &quot;it doesn't feel right&quot; so i have to vote yes. excellent argument, and even if it turns out to be untrue, it was very well thought out. <br /><br />and to agree with the first comment poster, yeah, uh, you don't seem to have a poor command of english. as a matter of fact, your command of it, as someone whose native language it isn't, seems to be far better than others i've come across whose native language it is <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> (no, i'm not intimating that the people who post here are bad at english...i just meant the general web-nation)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">___________________________<br />i'm a WoThead <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br />___________________________<br />When all else fails, laugh.<br />___________________________<br /><br /><i>Tai'Shar Charleston, S.C.!</i></font><p></p>


created: 2007-07-19 11:38:19
subject: <b>kcf</b>
body:
&quot;This is at least a theory worth posting (even if I think it's completely off base).&quot;<br /><br />Thank you.<br /><br />---<br />&quot;Simply said - LTT did not kill Asmodean. There really is no evidence to support it and the basic assumption that LTT even could is not justified by events in the book up to that time.&quot;<br /><br />Of course there is no evidence. There is no evidence for ANY suspect. I mean, the two most popular ones, Graendal and Lanfear can't even be placed in Caemlyn at the time of the murder. There are clues and hints though, and evidence for other things that could be hints.<br /><br />---<br />&quot;Lews Therin Killed Him by Highroller is older theory with this same idea, but this one is a bit more in depth.&quot;<br /><br />Pleasse don't do that. Highrollers theory is not close to mine. I'm not saying that I'm brilliant or that my theory is the ultimate case for LTT, but it is more elaborate and researched than Highrollers.<br /><br />---<br />&quot;I also covered LTT as suspect in my two theories - Who did it...an 18 suspect matrix-based solution (where I conclude that LTT is only slightly more likely a suspect than Santa Claus) and The Grand Unifying Theory of Asmodean&#8217;s Demise, where a jury of site 'experts' ranks him as the 14th most likely suspect out of a pool of 24 suspects.&quot;<br /><br />Two points here. First of all you argued LTT with the assumption that LTT took over Rands body and did the deed that way. How would you score him considering my theory? I mean B,C, E, F would most definatly be higher, E and I probably and I believe that your H is incorrect. G would be the one to drop if any.<br /><br />My second point is that your theory isn't really relevant for the actual discussion. It does a good job summing up the belief of the community &quot;experts&quot; , nothing else. The scores are set with a bias and the attempt to filter out the bias is severly lacking. Even trying to use one of those two theories as an argument against another theory is pointless? Your theories hardly even touches mine. Was your point to ridicule and compare LTT with santa as being almost as likely? What does it matter what other people think of LTT as the killer 3 years ago when my theory was posted 1 week ago and the two share almost no points?<br /><br />---<br />&quot;An interesting effort, but really it doesn't serve any real point&quot;<br /><br />Perhaps if you format it into a your matrix it will become true?<br /><br />Thanks for the input though.


created: 2007-07-19 12:02:40
subject: <b>hmm...</b>
body:
I can see you not wanting to be compared to the previous matter - I mostly included it because so few people around here actually seem to read the already existing theories.<br /><br />As for the comparisons of my own, I know they are out of date and not entirely applicable to the premise of your theory. What I wanted to point out is that LTT is a very unlikely suspect by all accounts. I know that you admit this right up front of your theory, but what I don't want to see a bunch of people who now 'convert' their belief to LTT as the killer. <br /><br />There is really no realistic way that he is the killer. Your most basic assumption is that LTT has some form of body seperate from Rand. At no point in the series have we seen anything like this - unless you count ghosts and such that have started popping up in the last couple of books.  You really spend very little time and show no evidence that it's even possible, yet you assert that it's worth considering. This is something I strongly disagree with, and the entire of your theory is dependent on it.<br /><br />Now I do like the creative thought - it's what keeps places like this from dying between books. But really, it's pretty far off base and I argue inconsistent with everything else in the books. To me anything built upon this basic assumption is equally off base.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Need a book to read - check out my blog for ideas.</font><p><a href="http://nethspace.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">Neth Space</a></p><p></p>


created: 2007-07-19 12:25:43
subject: <b>kcf</b>
body:
&quot;I know that you admit this right up front of your theory, but what I don't want to see a bunch of people who now 'convert' their belief to LTT as the killer.&quot;<br /><br />Please leave politics out of this. =) If you really _want_ something like that I would seriously doubt any attempts at being objective and rational from your prt. I hope I misunderstood or that you were joking.<br /><br />---<br />&quot;There is really no realistic way that he is the killer. Your most basic assumption is that LTT has some form of body seperate from Rand.&quot;<br /><br />Not really. My assumption is that he for a period gained a body of his own.<br /><br />---<br />&quot;At no point in the series have we seen anything like this - unless you count ghosts and such that have started popping up in the last couple of books.&quot;<br /><br />We have seen women changing appearance in TAR before. We have seen slayer change and then step out. All it takes is a will in TAR. Lews Therin has a will. Put them together and we have the possibility of Lews Therin materializing.<br /><br />The weakest point of my theory is that LTT must exit TAR and  not dissapear right away. My counter-argument to that is that Slayer can change in TAR and the form stays true in the real world. That's proof that changes in TAR while in the flesh can be permanent. Agreed that Slayer is a special case, but so is Rand/LTT.<br /><br />---<br />&quot;You really spend very little time and show no evidence that it's even possible, yet you assert that it's worth considering.&quot;<br /><br />I would have to disagree with you here. Sure I didn't post quotes supporting the mind over matter in TAR or slayer doing stuff, but I assumed that it was common knowledge.<br /><br />&quot;[...]the entire of your theory is dependent on it.&quot;<br /><br />Agreed.


created: 2007-07-19 12:49:39
subject: <b>good theory</b>
body:
I know when I read FOH for the first time I too thought it was somehow LTT, but could never imagine how it would be done. He always seemed the most likely to do so, yet also at the same time the most far-fetched of carrying the deed out. Though your theory is a little circumstantial, it gives me the &quot;gut-feeling&quot; that has resolved many mysteries. good job<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rand.gif" border="0" /> Dragonsworn314 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rand.gif" border="0" /><br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> Sworn to the legion <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /><br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /> Shen An Calhar kicks serious booty<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2007-07-19 13:08:13
subject: <b>No.....</b>
body:
not possible at all. First problem is that something created in TAR cant leave TAR, refer to when Egwene travels in the flesh to Salidar. Plus RJ has also said it somewhere, though can't remember where. Secondly you can't use the Luc/Isam comparison, since one of them &quot;lives&quot; and the real world the other in TAR, and they dont both exist simultaneously apart from each other in the same plan(ie. real world, TAR). So I cant see how your evidence covers this, or even somehow can explain with prrof how they separated and reintegrated, especially how Lewis Therin first escaped out of TAR and then reintegrated with Rand there. And all of this without Rand noticing a thing.


created: 2007-07-19 13:25:21
subject: <b>Plus.....</b>
body:
If you want to use the Luc/Isam connection, then Lewis Therin will be the &quot;domident&quot; form in TAR, thus everytime after that when Rand enter's TAR, he will be Lewis Therin untill he returns, except if the reintegration somehow changed that.....


created: 2007-07-19 13:29:24
subject: <b>And</b>
body:
I just dont think it's possible for Lewis Therin to somehow escape and seperate himself from Rand, even in TAR. We do know that if Lewis Therin was to take control of Rand, he can change his body to look like him(Lewis), but that's 2 completely different things.


created: 2007-07-19 13:47:55
subject: <b>Demandred 007</b>
body:
&quot;If you want to use the Luc/Isam connection, then Lewis Therin will be the &quot;domident&quot; form in TAR, thus everytime after that when Rand enter's TAR, he will be Lewis Therin untill he returns, except if the reintegration somehow changed that.....&quot;<br /><br />First of all I never stated that the two cases were the same. In fact I clearly said that they were not.<br /><br />Secondly we know that both Luc and Isam can be in both worlds.<br /><br />---<br />From WoT FAQ<br />[WH: 10, A Plan Succeeds, 240-241] is Luc: &quot;A man was standing there watching, a man as tall as an Aielman, with dark red hair faintly streaked with white, but his high-collared blue coat would never be worn by an Aiel&quot;...&quot;his hard face seemed somehow familiar&quot;...&quot;'Rand,' Egwene said. 'He could have been Rand's uncle.' Of course, Elayne thought. If Rand had a mean uncle.&quot; It doesn't get much clearer than that. What's important to note is that it was Luc the girls see in T'A'R, not Isam.<br /><br />The second time we see Slayer in WH is his assassination attempt on Rand, in [WH: 22, Out of Thin Air, 447-449]. First we see Isam, in T'A'R, studying his victims-to-be; then: &quot;...he carefully unsheathed the two poisoned daggers and stepped out of the Unseen World into the waking. As he did, he became Luc. It seemed appropriate&quot;. Note the last sentence. It was not necessary to become Luc - just appropriate. Further down the page he muses that he had been given &quot;many gifts&quot;, though immunity to poison or weapons was not among them. Then he steps back into T'A'R as Luc, and only switches back to Isam after talking to his mystery employer (see section 1.4.4).<br /><br />Well, that blows our previous theory right out of the water. This passage demonstrates that Slayer can appear as either Luc or Isam in the Unseen World; and strongly implies (though does not state) that he can appear as Luc or Isam in the world of the flesh as well (because he was Isam when he murdered Amico and Joiya - see below).<br /><br />--- <br /><br />So we have Luc in the real world and Isam in TAR in the Two Rivers and in WH we get proof that Luc is in TAR and it's strongly impliedthat Isam was in the real world when killing Aes Sedai in Tear. ([WH: 22, Out of Thin Air, 44<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/crazy.gif" border="0" /> &quot;That had been Isam, not him, but the memories were none the less prized for that. Neither of them got to kill an Aes Sedai very often.&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />.<br /><br />I think this is proven beyond all doubt. Slayer can change flesh in TAR and exit TAR in the flesh he chose. Sure it can be a special ability that only the DO can hand out. But it still gives us the possibility for other similar events.


created: 2007-07-19 20:11:38
subject: <b>In response to the Luc/Isam thing</b>
body:
That statement isn't proof that Isam can exit TAR in his own body, only that he can be the dominant half in the real world.<br /><br />Either way, since TAR constructs cannot exist in the real world, the complexities of Slayer is moot.  (Why havn't the Forsaken all taken out sa'angreal from TAR if it's possible?)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Asmodean:  You?  No!<br /><br />Ruarc:  Sorry!  Sometimes I forget to wear pants!<br /><br />        -Isam's WoT Summaries</font><p></p>


created: 2007-07-20 00:36:32
subject: <b>at first i voted no..</b>
body:
but now i is sayin yes.<br />it doesn't sound right but to me it kinda <i>feels</i> right.<br />but that could just be because its 12:34 AM<br />*shrugs*<br />good job though <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/thumbsup.gif" border="0" /> !!!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">If life gives you lemons, squeeze the juice into a water gun and shoot other people in the eyes <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2007-07-20 03:42:40
subject: <b>rAndy Al</b>
body:
&quot;That statement isn't proof that Isam can exit TAR in his own body, only that he can be the dominant half in the real world.&quot;<br /><br />I took care not to say it was proof but that it is strongly implied. I believe the only logical conclusion, considering the information I presented above, is that Isam can indeed step out with his own body. Luc can be himself in both worlds, Isam can be himself in TAR and Luc claims Isam was commited murders int he real world. Of course we can say that Isams personality controlled Lucs body but we have no hints at all that is how Slayer works.<br /><br />I agree with the FAQ that Slayer can be either Luc or Isam in either the real world or TAR, but that he only can switch in TAR.<br /><br />---<br />&quot;Either way, since TAR constructs cannot exist in the real world, the complexities of Slayer is moot. (Why havn't the Forsaken all taken out sa'angreal from TAR if it's possible?)&quot;&quot;<br /><br />The complexities of Slayer is not moot considering the above. He is there in the flesh and that seems to change things. I've never claimed that Nynaeves a'dam could be taken out of TAR nor that Rand could will something into existence and take it out.<br /><br />There is alot we don't know about TAR and even more when people are there in the flesh. For example, if Rand indeed would have transformed into the beast or into Lews Therin, what would have happened if he stepped out? The beast couldn't have stepped out, but say another channeler created a waygate out and the beast exited. Would the body revert to Rand and keep the mind of the beast/LTT? Would the body remain aswell as the mind? What if the same thing happened to a person dreaming themself into TAR, would they wake up with the mind of the beast/LTT or as themself? Questions I do not have answers to. If anyone can give rational explanations I would be grateful, not only because it could support or disprove my theory but because I'm genuinly interested.<br /><br />Thanks for your input though, you have valid points although I do not agree that they debunk my theory beyond all doubt.


created: 2007-07-20 04:43:12
subject: <b>See what you mean</b>
body:
but still no. Even if Slayer/Luc can choose who is the domident form in TAR, they can't exist apart from each other in TAR, or in the real world. And even without this is your theory completely wrong becuase something created in TAR cannot leave TAR.


created: 2007-07-20 04:57:59
subject: <b>Demandred 007</b>
body:
&quot;And even without this is your theory completely wrong becuase something created in TAR cannot leave TAR.&quot;<br /><br />It depends on how one views it. The new flesh/skin/bone created in TAR when Slayer transforms (or the flesh that is taken away) is created/destroyed in TAR and then taken out into the real world. Not as separate from the original, but still and addition.<br /><br />That the DO has given this gift is uniqe, but there must be a reason that it is in TAR and not in the real world that the transformation works. That reason would have to do with the inherent properties of TAR and that those properties supports that kind of transformation of the flesh.


created: 2007-07-20 06:54:37
subject: <b>Interest</b>
body:
One way of measuring how good a theory is is by the activity it generates, and not necessarily along the lines of &quot;how cr@p this is and what a stupid moron the author is&quot; etc etc.<br />This theory has generated lots of discussion and thought. Once again, well done (but I still don't agree <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> )


created: 2007-07-20 07:17:32
subject: <b>marekj</b>
body:
Thanks, but considering that I make up about half of the comments and discussion, perhaps it isn't that good. =)<br /><br />I enjoy it though. I've gotten more poitive responses than I believed was possible with Lews Therin as the perp.


created: 2007-07-20 07:54:29
subject: <b>Flesh Created</b>
body:
The flesh that is created by Luc/Isam, is created in TAR, using the basic principle of TAR where you can change your appearance. Thus it is not created but &quot;imagined&quot;, and these changes can't betaken out of TAR. Thus even if Lewis Therin was able to escape Rand somehow, and create a body of his own he would not be able to leave TAR. These rules of TAR have been properly discussed in the books, and have always shown that something created in TAR will only be effective there. This is shown with the Bella Egwene creates as well as when Moghedian threatens to turn Nynaeve into a horse. And if there was someway for the DO to change these rules, would the Forsaken not have exploited them yet?


created: 2007-07-20 10:53:38
subject: <b>Demandred 007</b>
body:
&quot;The flesh that is created by Luc/Isam, is created in TAR, using the basic principle of TAR where you can change your appearance. Thus it is not created but &quot;imagined&quot;, and these changes can't betaken out of TAR.&quot;<br /><br />Yet it still sees he does considering that he killed the Aes Sedai in Tear as Isam and we know that he has been Luc in the real world. I'm not giving a reason how this can be only that it seems it can be. I know it goes against all the things we know about TAR, the difference is that Rand and Slayer is there in the flesh. Egwene was too, the difference between that and the Rand/LTT situation is that Bela was a creation supported by Egwenes will, not a will of it's own.<br /><br />Perhaps TAR creations infused with wills of their own creates some sort of flesh that can survive for some time in the real world? I have no idea. I'll re-read the discussions /lessons with the WOs at some point and look for clues.


created: 2007-07-20 11:41:49
subject: <b>Remember &quot;Bela&quot; and Eggy's trip through TAR</b>
body:
When Eggy was called before the little tower she conjured up a Bela to ride, that Bela only existed in TAR, and it existed as long as Eggy had the gateway open EVEN WHEN SHE HAD ALREADY STEPPED THROUGH. The point is that LTT could have taken physical form in TAR, opened a gateway and inverted (does that hide the gateway itself?)seperate from the flows mentioned in the theory, held the gateway open as his connection to TAR, and thus, a psuedo-existence while taking care of Asmo...and stepped back through once his mission was accomplished releasing the gateway... thoughts?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" />     Asha'Twan     <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br />To use no way as way, to have no limitations as limitiation.<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Lee Jun Fan<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2007-07-20 13:19:05
subject: <b>Jordan Interview</b>
body:
Question from Vercingetorix: Why do you think everyone has a hard time figuring out who killed Asmodean? Graendal killed him. <br /><br />Robert Jordan: I don't know why people have a hard time figuring that out. To me it seems intuitively obvious even to the most casual observer. The reason I won't tell people though is that I am enjoying watching them squirm entirely too much. It's probably bad for me. <br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">YodasFather<br /><br />There are only 10 types of people in the world - those who understand binary, and those who don't.</font><p></p>


created: 2007-07-20 13:21:48
subject: <b>Nice Theory</b>
body:
I don't agree with your theory but I did enjoy reading it.  I want to thank you for presenting an excellenct theory regarding the &quot;asmo&quot; killer; as opposed to the crap that usually gets on here.  Thanks for the theory and kudos.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">YodasFather<br /><br />There are only 10 types of people in the world - those who understand binary, and those who don't.</font><p></p>


created: 2007-07-20 15:13:48
subject: <b>I seem to agree with most of the comments on here...</b>
body:
I disagree with the theory, but still love it. Probably one of the best theories I've read in a long time.<br /><br />And stop apologizing for your grammar. Your English is Superb.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2007-07-20 17:36:46
subject: <b>To ashatwan</b>
body:
Even if Lewis Therin created himself a body and all, and then the gateway back to the real world, he would not be able to step through that gateway since his body belongs to TAR, and cannot leave, whether the gateway stays open doesn't matter. Egwene could still keep Bella there becuase Bella never leaved TAR, and Egwene could still concentrate on her through the &quot;gateway&quot; effect she created.


created: 2007-07-20 17:42:45
subject: <b>FetFnask</b>
body:
Think we should leave the Isam/Luc connection since they use different rules of TAR and the real world then other's. But I also think that when he killed them as Isam, it just meant that Isam had control of the body, as they basically 2 people in 1 body, thus his body in the real world never changed to that of Isam. But they use some things we dont know of, and enter and leave TAR differently


created: 2007-07-21 00:56:19
subject: <b>You're wroking too hard on this</b>
body:
Supposing LTT existed as a separate being in TAR, he could kill Asmo without ever leaving it.<br /><br />He opens a gateway into the real world and when he sees Asmo on the other side, uses the Power to kill him and draw his body to him. He would never need to leave TAR to do any of this.<br /><br />I believe we see people use the power to affect what happens on the other side of a gateway. (Elayne for example after using the Bowl of Winds)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'My name is a Guttering Flame, king of kings:<br />Look on my works, ye Mighty, and despair!'<br /><br />Every great journey begins with at least one small crunched snail.<br /><br />Agree, Disagree or don't give a damn?<br />That is indeed the question.<br /><br /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smackhead.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/crazy.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2007-07-21 22:54:07
subject: <b>demandred_007...</b>
body:
you are probably right--but just to play devil's advocate, here are two poss. scenarios...<br /><br />uno:<br />leave gateway open into pantry, balefire/fireball/other nasty thingy asmo, then wink out gateway mission accomplished....<br /><br />dos:<br />draw Asmo into TAR through said open gateway against his will (possible?) or turn the doorway into a gateway making so Asmo actually walked into a TAR reflection of the pantry...i realize there would be the issue of Asmo sensing the male half, but perhaps the shield/fatigue/amount of male half already in environment/etc. contributed in missing it...just a thought =)<br /><br />just making these up as I type, no thought process involved...<br />feel free to rip 'em apart!!<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" />     Asha'Twan     <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br />To use no way as way, to have no limitations as limitiation.<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Lee Jun Fan<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2007-07-22 03:31:41
subject: <b>Something New</b>
body:
Wonderful theory. Will be interesting to see if it's true in aMoL - if we do at all.<br />Like to read your ideas of why LTT went missing early in PoD!!


created: 2007-07-22 19:00:31
subject: <b>Y'know what?</b>
body:
I never bought into Graendal being the killer. I never had any ideas about who it might be, but a couple of lines from the end of FoH bothered me when put together:<br /><br />&#8221;Death rides on my shoulder,&quot; Lews Therin muttered. &quot;Death walks in my footsteps. I am death.&#8221;<br /><br />and<br /><br />&quot;You? No!&quot; The words still hung in the air when death took him.<br /><br />Now, after the scene when Moridin re-introduces himself to Moghedien, she thinks to herself something about &quot;any fool could call himself Death&quot;. I thought back to Asmodean's final moments when a theory was posted here about Moridin doing it, and it kinda made sense. But when I read this theory, I got the same nagging feeling in the back of my head that I did the first time I read FoH. I completely agree with this theory. Yes there are some holes (some big enough to drive a Mack truck through), but it presents the best case I've come across. And to the people who just can't help but say &quot;it's impossible because...&quot;, I just want to ask, how much time have YOU spent studying T'A'R? How do YOU know what is and isn't possible? Sure, nothing created there can leave there, but we're dealing with an unprecedented idea here.<br /><br />I'd also like to bring up Birgitte. It's completely unrelated, except for the fact that she existed solely in T'A'R, until Moghedien ripped her away, and somehow popped her into the &quot;real&quot; world. Can anyone explain how this happened?<br /><br />And, finally, yeah I tend to ramble from time to time, ahem. Finally I too would like to compliment the author on his excellent command of the English language. There are many people on this site alone who could use a few tips from you, and English IS their native tongue. Well done, a well written theory, which I for one agree with whole-heartedly<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Of course you should fight fire with fire! You should fight EVERYTHING with fire!<br /><br />-Al'Gai, the Son of Battle<br />A.K.A. Anaro Ravenclaw,<br />Technomancer for the next Millenium <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/borg.gif" border="0" /><br />Revenant Bounty Hunter Extroidinaire <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2007-07-23 02:51:25
subject: <b>Al_Gai</b>
body:
Thank you for the compliments!<br /><br />I haven't even considered Birgitte and the Heroes. I have to read up and see what is said about TAR and them exiting.


created: 2007-07-23 07:57:40
subject: <b>the Heroes and Birgitte</b>
body:
So, I looked through TGH and FoH for clues about the heroes and especially Birgitte since they seem to be living in TAR and are still able to come into the real world.<br /><br />I haven't found any quotes that states that the Heroes are living in TAR, but Birgittes presence there suggests it is so.<br /><br />I have read a theory that the Horn of Valere is a Ter'angreal that can pull these heroes from TAR into the real world. Even if that is not proven it seems like a logical conclusion.<br /><br />That one can use to power to expel a person from TAR into the real world is proven by the fact that Modhedien does exactly that with Birgitte. It also seems like it isn't a great feat with the power. Sure, Moghedien is very knowledgable in TAR and that certainly plays a part, but the actual expelling seems rather effortless.<br /><br />FoH Ch 34<br />&#8220;Staggering on her feet, Birgitte fumbled another arrow from her quiver. &#8220;Go, Nynaeve!&#8221; It was a mumbling shout. &#8220;Get away!&#8221; Birgitte&#8217;s head wavered, and the silver bow wobbled as she raised it.<br />The glow around Moghedien increased until it seemed as if the blinding sun surrounded her.<br />The night folded in over Birgitte like an ocean wave, enveloping her in blackness. When it passed, the bow dropped atop empty clothes as they collapsed. The clothes faded like fog burning off, and only the bow and arrows remained, shining in the moonlight.&#8221;<br /><br />[---]<br /><br />When Birgitte is in Elaynes and Nynaeves wagon, Nynaeve is trying to heal her(FoH Ch 35):<br />&quot;&#8220;It isn&#8217;t working. There is nothing wrong with her to Heal. She is as perfect as anyone can be. But she is dying. Oh, Light, I can feel her slipping away. Burn Moghedien! Burn her! And burn me along with her!&#8221;&quot;<br /><br />[---] (Elayne bonds Birgitte)<br /><br />&quot;&#8220;Will she live?&#8221; Elayne asked faintly. There was no visible link between her and Birgitte, no flows, but she could sense the woman&#8217;s weakness. A terrible weakness. She would know the moment Birgitte died, even if she was sleeping, or hundreds of miles away.<br /><br />&#8220;I do not know. She isn&#8217;t fading anymore, but I do not know.&#8221;&quot;<br /><br />[---]<br /><br />&quot;Nynaeve did look at her then, a scowl that lasted only a moment before she turned her face completely away. &#8220;You don&#8217;t understand.&#8221; Her voice sank almost to a whisper. &#8220;She . . . was . . . one of the heroes bound to the Wheel of Time, destined to be born again and again to make legends. She wasn&#8217;t born this time, Elayne. She was ripped out of Tel&#8217;aran&#8217;rhiod as she stood. Is she still bound to the Wheel? Or has she been ripped away from that, too? Ripped away from what her own courage earned her, because I was so proud, so man-stubborn stupid, that I made her hunt for Moghedien?&#8221;&quot;<br /><br />-----<br />Here we see that it is possible for someone to be expelled from TAR tot he real world and live. Moghedien knows how to do it, perhaps Lews Therin knew aswell.<br /><br />Birgitte is dying and it seems it is because of her being ripped from TAR by Moghedien. Elayne bonds her as a Warder and we do not know what would have happened exactly or if there were any other ways to save her or reinsert her into TAR. Nynaeve says that Birgitte is no longer fading, whatever that means. What would happen when she has faded away? We have no way of knowing (I could be missing a quote later on concerning this, if you know, please let me know).<br /><br />You might point out that there is a great difference between Birgitte being expelled by Moghedien and Lews Therin being separated from Rand and eventually exiting TAR. I agree, but consider these quotes when the triad is speaking to the Heroes at Falme:<br /><br />TGH Ch 47<br />&#8220;It takes more than bravery to bind a man to the Horn.&#8221; Artur Hawkwing&#8217;s voice was deep and carrying, a voice used to giving commands.<br /><br />&#8220;Or a woman,&#8221; Birgitte said sharply.<br /><br />&#8220;Or a woman,&#8221; Hawkwing agreed. &#8220;Only a few are bound to the Wheel, spun out again and again to work the will of the Wheel in the Pattern of the Ages. You could tell him, Lews Therin, could you but remember when you wore flesh.&#8221; He was looking at Rand.&#8221;<br /><br />[---]<br /><br />&#8221; To his surprise, several of the small host behind Artur Hawkwing chuckled, and Birgitte, testing her bowstring, laughed. &#8220;You always choose women who cause you trouble, Lews Therin.&#8221; It had a fond sound, as between old friends.&#8221;<br /><br />[---]<br /><br />&#8221; Justice shone like a mirror in Artur Hawkwing&#8217;s gauntleted fist. &#8220;I have fought by your side times beyond number, Lews Therin, and faced you as many more. The Wheel spins us out for its purposes, not ours, to serve the Pattern. I know you, if you do not know yourself. We will drive these invaders out for you.&#8221;<br /><br />-----<br /><br />These quotes tells us that the Heroes knows more about Lews Therin than just by reputation. Hawkwing says that he has met and fought with or against Lews Therin countless times, implying that he is bound to the Wheel in the same way that the Heroes are, perhaps even a Hero himself (although that is not a given at all).<br /><br />What I am saying is that other rules seem to apply for threads bound to the wheel in the way that the Heroes, Lews Therin/Rand is. It's not proof of my original theory, but it shows that it might be possible.<br /><br />I would also like to point out what Julin says about Birgittes appearance:<br />&#8220;Is it her? Bad enough if it isn&#8217;t, a woman appearing naked out of nothing like that, but . . . What have you gotten us into, you and N . . . Nana?&#8221;<br /><br />She just appeared. Kind of like Slayer wouldn't you say?<br /><br />-----<br />These following quotes are irrelevant and more a sign of me looking too hard, but the connection can be made with some faith. ;-)<br /><br />TGH Ch 47<br />&#8220;Mat&#8217;s hand shook as he raised the Horn of Valere to his lips.<br /><br />It was a clear note, golden as the Horn was golden. The trees around them seemed to resonate with it, and the ground under their feet, the sky overhead. That one long sound encompassed everything.<br /><br />Out of nowhere, a fog began to rise. First thin wisps hanging in the air, then thicker billows, and thicker, until it blanketed the land like clouds.&#8221;<br /><br />We see that the Heroes comes forth from a fog. Incidentally that is where Rand is looking for Lews Therin during his second disappearance in ACoS Ch 41:<br /><br />&quot;Tossing, Rand dreamed, wild dreams where he argued with Perrin and begged Mat to find Elayne, where colors flashed just beyond sight and Padan Fain leaped at him with a flashing blade, and sometimes he thought he heard a voice moaning for a dead woman in the heart of a fog, dreams where he tried to explain himself to Elayne, to Aviendha, to Min, to all three at once, and even Min looked at him with scorn.<br /><br />&#8220; . . . not to be disturbed!&#8221; Cadsuane&#8217;s voice. Part of his dreams?<br /><br />The voice frightened him; in his dream he shouted for Lews Therin, and the sound echoed through a thick mist where shapes moved and people and horses died screaming, a fog where Cadsuane followed him implacably while he ran, panting. Alanna tried to soothe him, but she was afraid of Cadsuane, too; he could feel her fear as strongly as his own. His head hurt. And his side; the old scar was fire. He felt saidin. Someone held saidin. Was it him? He did not know. He struggled to wake.&quot;<br /><br />-----<br />This is most likely just a construct of Rand being attacked by Fain in the fog and Lews Therin being gone, but I still like the connection, even if it's just in my head.<br /><br />If more things about the Heroes/Birgitte can be dug up I'd appreciate any hints. =)<br /><br /><br />


created: 2007-07-23 16:55:32
subject: <b>I like it but NO</b>
body:
I like the idea that you came up with a different perspective.  Anything different than the normal theories about Asmodean being killed by Sammuel, Grandel, or Lanfear giving the same evidence but presented with different words is a nice change.<br /><br />Unfortunately I do not agree and can not accept that LTT could possibly split from Rand and then merge back.  <br /><br />The important fight was with Rahvin at the time.  He was way more of threat than Amsodean.  If they split in TAR, LTT would have to ensure that Rand was taken care of and got through the episode with Rahvin.  It was LTT&#8217;s experience and knowledge that allowed Rand to succeed until that point.<br /><br />That is the glaring reason why I can not accept this theory.<br /><br />But I like the twist and different take.  This was one of the more enjoyable theories I have read for a long period of time.<br />


created: 2007-07-23 23:17:25
subject: <b>I wanna talk to SAMPSON!</b>
body:
Fly me to the moon! Sorry, too much Half Baked. But anyways, I've got some comments and questions, bub.<br /><br />You said: &quot;The important fight was with Rahvin at the time. He was way more of threat than Amsodean.&quot; And I agree. The fight with Rahvin is what was important <i>at the time</i>. Asmodean was killed a little bit later.<br /><br />You also said: &quot;If they split in TAR, LTT would have to ensure that Rand was taken care of and got through the episode with Rahvin.&quot; Why? Why would Lews Therin care about what he believes to be a voice in his head? If this theory is indeed correct, and LTT gained a body, even for a short time, that &quot;voice&quot; in his head wouldn't be there anymore. Which LTT would probably consider a blessing. He certainly wouldn't stick around to make sure a voice survived. At least, <i>I</i> wouldn't.<br /><br />I don't know why, but I feel the need to help defend this theory, and I vow to do so until my dying breath, or RJ himself refutes it in no uncertain terms. With that said, Flame on! I could use the target practice.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Of course you should fight fire with fire! You should fight EVERYTHING with fire!<br /><br />-Al'Gai, the Son of Battle<br />A.K.A. Anaro Ravenclaw,<br />Technomancer for the next Millenium <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/borg.gif" border="0" /><br />Revenant Bounty Hunter Extroidinaire <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2007-07-24 02:32:30
subject: <b>another quote</b>
body:
I'm on fire! =)<br /><br />From the battle with Rahvin:<br />&quot;It came to him, as he trotted along another colonnade, sensing for Rahvin, that he had not heard the voice crying over Ilyena since he channeled balefire. Perhaps he had somehow chased Lews Therin out of his head.<br /><br />Good. He stopped at the edge of one of the palace gardens. The roses and whitestar bushes looked as drought bedraggled as they would have in the real palace. On some of the white spires rising above the rooftops, the White Lion banner rippled, but which spire could change in the blink of an eye. Good, if I don&#8217;t have to share my head with&#8212;<br /><br />He felt odd. Insubstantial.&quot;<br />----<br />Rand even expresses that he doesn't want to share his head with Lews Therin right before the alledged split.


created: 2007-07-24 20:28:13
subject: <b>Some nice discussion going here....</b>
body:
First off, to andy nintendo: That quote is used so often and taken completely out of context. Most don't realize it, but the person that asked that question is Vercingetorix, and he's an admin for the TP here at Wotmania. Here is his own reply to that chat Q&amp;A copied from a BB post to another theory at this site titled &quot;An argument concerning death's identity&quot;:<br /><br /><b>Matrimony's right, rahien<br />Submitted by Vercingetorix on 9/6/2003 8:31:44 AM</b><br /><br /><i>It was from a Barnes and Noble chat and I asked the question. First off, it was originally a &quot;note, Graendal killed him&quot; rather than just a simple Graendal killed him, making it seem that that's what RJ was agreeing to. Second, if you read the damn sentence even with the bloody editing it's clear english wise that RJ is answering the actual question, not my comment at the end.</i><br /><br />Now, for FetFnask, here is a pov from Rand in LoC chapter 2:<br /><br /><i>&quot;...Whatever Taim had done in Saldaea, he could not afford to turn away a man who could channel, a man who would not have to be taught from the first steps. He needed such a man. He would turn away no one except one of the Forsaken, not unless he was forced to. <b>Demandred and Sammael, Semirhage and Mesaana, Asmodean and</b>.... Rand forced Lews Therin down; he could not afford distractions now.&quot;</i><br /><br />At the end of that, LTT starts going into a litany of Forsaken, and Rand mentally quashes it. Why would he include Asmodean on that list if he had already killed him? Doesn't it make sense that he is naming off the Forsaken he still has to keep an eye out for, given the context?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2007-07-24 21:45:43
subject: <b>to the grave</b>
body:
This will go on long till after we loose the best writer of fantasy in history (IMHO) cause he'll take it to the grave. Keep going guys I love it <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> I have no real opinion on who did it, I only hope he tells us on way or another.


created: 2007-07-24 21:47:42
subject: <b>P.S.</b>
body:
And no Aes Sedai half truths either <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />)


created: 2007-07-25 02:08:28
subject: <b>Light in the Night</b>
body:
<i>&quot;At the end of that, LTT starts going into a litany of Forsaken, and Rand mentally quashes it. Why would he include Asmodean on that list if he had already killed him? Doesn't it make sense that he is naming off the Forsaken he still has to keep an eye out for, given the context?&quot;</i><br /><br />Because he was listing all the Forsaken? We can't know since Rand broke him off before he finished.


created: 2007-08-01 19:46:42
subject: <b>HMMM...</b>
body:
I have to say I truly enjoyed this possibility.  I'm really not feeling Graendal no matter how much &quot;proof&quot; there is.  I can't say who I thought it was at the time because I commited the sin of reading FOH first and since I knew there were characters I didn't know about there might have been somebody who deserved a &quot;you? No!&quot;  When I finally read 1 through 5 I had the misguided hope that someone would just tell us.  Apparently its not meant to be and I enjoy these novelties.  To all those who are arguing against the vital case of LTT body it is clear from Birgitte that a living mind is granted a body at least a Hero's mind is and if nothing else half of Rand's mind could very well take half of his matter with him(the science of that is a bit much certainly but nonetheless...).  I think the vital argument is how does reintergration take place?  There have been so many reasons given for LTT's quiescence but none of them have been reasonable if one conciders that LTT is not a figment of madness dependant upon Rand's state of mind but a real entity.  As such can a real entity with a body (was Birgittes body fading or just her life I'm not sure that's clear)  get rid of it and then somehow slide back into Rand's brain?<br /><br />We do know from Thom that possession is not impossible if one considers that Mordeth was a ghost of sorts we have evidence that indeed one entity can exist without a real body and enter/take over someone elses.  This is all to say that LTT body might have dematerialized and his mind might have lingered.  May have had to linger since its soul was still well and alive.<br /><br />So in support of this theory we have Birgitte who exited TAR in a violent way and may have only been unable to survive becasue of the violent manner in which she was pushed out.  This is all to say that LTT need not have started &quot;dying&quot; as soon as he left TAR since it is possible that that was a sideeffect of the method and not the exit.  However in the case of a fading body I would postulate that his mind could exist without one since ghosts and Mordeth exist and in Mordeths case he could create the illusion of one and use his Powers to an extent.  In the ghostly prescence theory it is completly possible that LTT was slowly drawn back &quot;home&quot; so to speak.<br /><br />Now I can't say I completely on board in the end but I don't see why it wouldn't be possible especially with the familiarity of the exclaim coupled with the proximity of the possible murders.  At the very least we know that LTT was definitely there unlike some others and while it may not be reasonable Asmodean is definitely pet worthy and important enough for Graendal to keep as such <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />.  Musical Prodigy, Forsaken, at least reasonably handsome.  All motives for Graendal not to kill him lol......<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where did these Skimmers come from?  I mean if they didn't want to read the book they could have just Traveled to another author.  Why risk arriving at the wrong destination?  Why risk falling into darkness?</font><p></p>


created: 2007-08-03 12:59:47
subject: <b>Rands two souls</b>
body:
Thanks for a fresh and penetrating look at this old subject.<br /><br />I believe that while the quotes from Jordan on this subject make this discussion likely moot, he didn't ever come out right and say &quot;I agree with you, Asmodean was killed by Greandal,&quot; so this interesting argument could still bear fruit.<br /><br />Main points:<br />1. Rand is harboring two souls<br />2. LTT's soul escaped during the fight against Rahvin, a soul can will itself a body of its liking.<br />3. LTT couldn't indefinitely maintain the link to life without Rand and had to reintegrate.<br /><br />1. I have long thought that Rand is currently harboring two souls. His own soul that originated from his parents getting together, and a second soul that was trapped in Dragonmount since the time of LTT's death.  I don't have time to argue this in it's entirety here, since it should probably be it's own theory subject, but I think there is a difference between all the other reborn heroes who don't remember their past (other than a random memory sneaking in here and there) to Rand's unique dual soul situation that has led to not only memories leaking between the two souls, but also to two separate intents or wills being manifested and contested in one body.  I believe their must be two separate souls for there to be a contest of wills as has taken place many times, such as when LTT took over control of Rand's body completely in Knife of Dreams and wove things unknown by any since the AoL. <br /><br />2. The existence of two souls in one body could lead to another unique possibility; LTT soul could free itself of Rand's body while in TAR and will it's own separate body into existence.  We have seen much evidence, and it can be taken as given, that objects created in TAR cannot be taken out, but I believe that is because objects created by a person in TAR have no will or soul of their own, and indeed Bela could not be taken out, because the horse was created by Egwene and had no separate will of its own.  With Rand and LTT however we have two separate wills and souls.  I believe that the presence of two souls would allow, if the secondary soul could escape, the creation of a body by the soul for the use of that soul.  In this case it is possible that during the fight against Rahvin, and specifically the moment when Rahvin was willing Rand not to exist that LTT's soul escaped.  This is how I imagine it.  Rand was being willed into non existance, and like the theory said LTT stepped in to will himself into back into existence.  As he did this Rand fought against LTT and pushed him away.  As Rand pushed LTT and reclaimed his body, he freed LTT's soul which was already claiming it's own body.<br /><br />Something similar happened in the case of Birgitte.  I believe that the souls that are bound to the wheel are trapped and exist in TAR until they are spun out.  They have the power of will to create bodies for themselves and can indeed do anything a normally alive person can do in TAR.  Therefor, when Birgitte's soul was ripped from TAR the body she had willed for herself went with it.  She immediately began to die, because she lacked a real tie to life as her soul had not been woven into the pattern, but simply placed on it.  That is, until Elayne bound Birgitte to herself, thus to the pattern, and to life.  LTT is again different because he can channel, I will explore this further in point three.<br /><br />There is further evidence that a soul can will itself a body to keep outside of TAR in the case of Luc/Isam.  While their case is another unique one in that their souls seem to have melded together, and are not existing separately the way Rand and LTT do, it is clear from the Luc dialogue above that the Luc/Isam soul can create a body of it's liking in TAR to be used outside of TAR.  It seems that this could also lead to the ultimate disguise, once entering into TAR you could simply will yourself a new body, however since anyone who knows of this can use the mask of mirrors, this probably highly dangerous method of changing your body is not necessary.  What about the possibility of growing new limbs or of eternal youth?  Interesting questions ...  Surely if changes such as being made to not exist, or being turned into a beast would be permanent, so would a new hand.<br /><br />3. What happens when a soul that is not part of the pattern is dropped onto the pattern?  In the case of Birgitte, her soul was not woven into the pattern, so until Elayne bound her and thus created a link to the pattern, Birgitte was dying and would have died without that link.  I believe that a very similar thing could happen to LTT if he tried to escape TAR, without his link to Rand he would eventually cease to exist.  Now, what does LTT have linking him to life and to the pattern that Birgitte does not have?  A link to Saidin.  I think that with a supreme effort LTT could in his newly willed body exist outside TAR by continuing a link to Saidin.  Eventually this would grow tiresome or impossible and LTT would release his body and reintegrate into Rand.<br /><br />It makes sense to me that a soul needs a body to channel, therefor until Rand went into TAR in the flesh LTT could not be separate.  LTT needed the conditions of TAR to will himself a body, and he needs that body to channel on his own, and he needs to maintain a link to Saidin to remain alive outside TAR, since he is not by himself a part of the pattern in the same way Birgitte is not part of the pattern.<br /><br />Thanks again for the opportunity to consider all of these fun questions!<br />


created: 2007-08-04 02:54:35
subject: <b>I must have missed it the first time</b>
body:
to FetFnask; point #9 on your list is not correct. RJ has never said that Asmo's killer was introduced in FoH. The quote you might be referring to is: &quot;All clues are included up to TFOH&quot;.<br /><br /><br />And for gawynssecret, from the WOTFAQ, RJ has also said this:<br /><br />From the New York Barnes and Noble signing on January 7, 2003:<br /><br /><b>Q:</b> <i>The question is, with Rand and LTT, do they have 1 soul or 2 souls in the body?</i><br /><br /><b>A:</b> <i>They have 1 soul with 2 personalities. The reincarnation of souls does not mean reincarnation of personalities. The personality develops with each reincarnation of the soul. This is the cosmology that I cobbled together.</i><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2007-08-05 17:06:52
subject: <b>Interesting theory but two major flaws</b>
body:
I haven't read anyone else's comments so if they've been brought up before I apologise.<br />First of all I'd like to thank you for the theory, it was an interesting read and well researched. Good job.<br />Problems:<br />There are two major problems with the theory: one is metaphysical the other is motivational.<br />Metaphysical: RJ has stated that both Rand and LTT share the same soul. I heard this myself at a COT signing when he said &quot;LTT and Rand al'Thor, two personalities but the same soul&quot; I can't see how LTT could separate himself out without a soul.<br />Motivational: Assuming for arguement's sake that LTT is out and about, although he's a souless entity. Why would he reintergrate back with RaT? This is a glaring ommission in your theory. There is no real motivation for RTT to go back into Rand, yet we know he does. <br /><br />NaCl(if you can explain those, I might change my mind)H2O<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Any comments on my photos appreciated</font><p><a href="http://saltwater.smugmug.com/" target="_blank">My photos, a work in progress</a></p><p></p>


created: 2007-08-06 08:22:45
subject: <b>two souls</b>
body:
Light in the Night, thanks for the quote, I actually remember it a long while ago, but I apparently blocked it out in favor of my thoery <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br />I actually think it makes a lot of sense that LTT's soul was trapped in dragonmount and could not escape until a child was born on the slopes.  Why else would that situation be necessary.  I don't know that you can argue that the wheel, ie. the side of the light, didn't need help before then.  I think if the wheel could have spun him out easily it would have, but instead a very delicate and complex set of circumstances had to take place before he could be reborn.  I also think that two souls makes more sense as there seems to be contesting wills, but oh well. RJ trumps.


created: 2007-08-06 12:25:05
subject: <b>Saltwater</b>
body:
&quot;Metaphysical: RJ has stated that both Rand and LTT share the same soul. I heard this myself at a COT signing when he said &quot;LTT and Rand al'Thor, two personalities but the same soul&quot; I can't see how LTT could separate himself out without a soul.&quot;<br /><br />My theory states that in TAR only a will is needed. There are two wills in Rands body, Rands and Lews Therins. No extra soul required. I can't be sre that this is true of course but we have nothing that is against it.<br /><br /><br />&quot;Motivational: Assuming for arguement's sake that LTT is out and about, although he's a souless entity. Why would he reintergrate back with RaT? This is a glaring ommission in your theory. There is no real motivation for RTT to go back into Rand, yet we know he does.&quot;<br /><br />My theory (elaborated on in the comments, some are actually worthy of a reading <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />) states that the reintegation was perhaps not volountary. Like Birgitte being torn out from TAR into the real world with a physical body, LTT might have been constantly fading and when the fading completed he was reintegrated with Rand. We have Rand acting unusually much when LTT reappears in LoC.


created: 2007-08-07 18:45:04
subject: <b>Wills and motivation</b>
body:
Ok for the sake of arguement let's assume that LTT's will is strong enough to separate from Rand's body and <i>their</i> soul. I doubt very seriously it could be done but lets assume that he's wandering around as a souless entity, and because of that, probably completely amoral. Note that any references to Slayer are now void because we know that Slayer has two personalities <i>and</i> two souls. So basically you've said that in TaR at least, &quot;where there is a will, there is a way&quot; With such a strong will operating on the flexibility of TaR, I simply can't buy that it's being forced into reintegration with RaT. I would say a will strong enough to separate from its soul would be strong enough to fight the tides of reintegration. Even early on we hear LTT moaning about having a madman in his head. Why would he go back to that? I really can't believe that a will strong enough to separate itself out and form a body would then allow itself to be pulled back. <br />I'll say again that you did a good job, well researched and written, but it still doesn't hold water (pun intended) for me. <br /><br />NaCl(a will that strong would remain free)H2O<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Any comments on my photos appreciated</font><p><a href="http://saltwater.smugmug.com/" target="_blank">My photos, a work in progress</a></p><p></p>


created: 2007-08-08 10:03:40
subject: <b>Lews Therin's will...</b>
body:
Strong as it is, the body it would have created couldn't survive outside T'A'R, unless, as I believe someone suggested above, he was holding <i>saidin</i>. Their comment made sense to me, about how holding <i>saidin</i> for so long would cause him to tire, and when he released it, the re-integration was forced upon him.<br /><br />Although, I suppose that raises the question, could LTT's will even be able to channel? Is it a person's soul that gives them the link to the Power, meaning, would a channeler manifest the ability in every incarnation? Or is it more like, two incarnations, no channeling, next one they can, three more without it, then two with, something like that? I don't know, I hate mornings. So hard to think straight.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Of course you should fight fire with fire! You should fight EVERYTHING with fire!<br /><br />-Al'Gai, the Son of Battle<br />A.K.A. Anaro Ravenclaw,<br />Technomancer for the next Millenium <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/borg.gif" border="0" /><br />Revenant Bounty Hunter Extroidinaire <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2007-08-14 00:52:03
subject: <b>I only see one problem.</b>
body:
First I wanted to say that when I first read this post, I thought it was a little far out. After reading the comments, and seeing the responses to critique, I've almost changed my mind.<br /><br />One point though is still holding me up on this. From LoC, Journey to Salidar; (paperback page 657) just after stepping thought the gateway from TAR into Salidar Egwene thought:<br /><br />[One step she took, and came up short with a sharp, wide-eyed, &quot;Oh!&quot; The changes she had made in Tel&#8217;aran&#8217;rhoid existed in the real world no more than Bela did. The flames returned with a rush, and with them, it was almost as though Sorilea spoke to her. If you take what you did to meet your toh and make it so it might as well never have happened, how have you met toh? Remember your Aiel heart, girl.]<br /><br />Now by this, I figure that any changes made to the physical body in TAR, no matter how strong the person&#8217;s will, are not carried over into the &#8220;real&#8221; world. Also, at this point, Egwene was holding the OP, so this portion of the comments does not hold.<br /><br />As for the Slayer situation, there really isn&#8217;t much to go on, but I have never heard of anyone seeing Isam outside of TAR, just Luc&#8217;s thoughts of Isam killing the BA in the Stone. A multiple personality change does not have to be physical.<br /><br />I&#8217;d be happy if you can prove me wrong, as otherwise I truly like this idea.<br />


created: 2007-08-27 06:34:34
subject: <b>dlm:</b>
body:
&quot;Now by this, I figure that any changes made to the physical body in TAR, no matter how strong the person&#8217;s will, are not carried over into the &#8220;real&#8221; world. Also, at this point, Egwene was holding the OP, so this portion of the comments does not hold.&quot;<br /><br />But we do know that if you are injured in TAR, you will be injured in the real world. See Slayer and Perrin for this. If you die in TAR you die in the real world. There is a connection between the two, we just don't know exactly what. I don't have definitive answers, just speculations.<br /><br />-----<br /><br />&quot;As for the Slayer situation, there really isn&#8217;t much to go on, but I have never heard of anyone seeing Isam outside of TAR, just Luc&#8217;s thoughts of Isam killing the BA in the Stone. A multiple personality change does not have to be physical.&quot;<br /><br />True, but I think the case for both Luc and Isam appearing both in TAR and the real world is pretty strong in spite of that.<br /><br />-----<br /><br />&quot;I&#8217;d be happy if you can prove me wrong, as otherwise I truly like this idea.&quot;<br /><br />Nothing about Asmodeans death is easy to prove and I don't think I can provide anything that will convince anyone beyond all doubt.<br /><br />


created: 2007-10-06 02:48:06
subject: <b>i wonder</b>
body:
asmodean once said... 'a quick death is better than what ill find elsewhere' i think. do the people who support graendal... the shadow.. any of them.... actually think he was wrong? i just cant see how he could have been let off so easy


created: 2007-10-09 08:16:27
subject: <b>True</b>
body:
Not that it really supports my theory as much as it can be used as &quot;evidence&quot; against others.


created: 2008-04-30 13:09:49
subject: <b>My Biggest Objection</b>
body:
My biggest objection to this theory is that it rests upon another unproven theory: the Lews-Therin-Telamon-is-real-and-Rand-simply-has-the-problem-of-a-dead-guy-in-his-head theory.  There is no proof yet that Lews Therin is a real entity in Rand's head.  If Lews Therin is in fact a product of Rand's <i>saidin</i>-induced madness, then this theory can hold no water, as Lews Therin is not a separate personality to be split in Tel'aran'rhiod, whether such a thing is even possible.  <br /><br />And, according to Wheel of Time FAQs (link below), the Lews-Therin-Telamon-is-real theory, by itself, has problems.  The FAQ suggestions a blending of the two main theories: Rand's <i>memories</i> are a product of reincarnation (similar to Mat's tendency to remember Manetheren-related things and spout the Old Tongue even before he went through the second redstone door), while the voice and personality of Lews Therin that acts up in Rand's head?  That's the taint.  That's Rand going insane.  <br /><br />http://www.darkfriends.net/wheel/2_nondark/2.1_taveren/2.1.6_lews.html<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">May you find shade this morning.</font><p></p>


created: 2008-05-06 04:12:40
subject: <b>wedded to the spear</b>
body:
&quot;My biggest objection to this theory is that it rests upon another unproven theory: the Lews-Therin-Telamon-is-real-and-Rand-simply-has-the-problem-of-a-dead-guy-in-his-head theory. There is no proof yet that Lews Therin is a real entity in Rand's head. If Lews Therin is in fact a product of Rand's saidin-induced madness, then this theory can hold no water, as Lews Therin is not a separate personality to be split in Tel'aran'rhiod, whether such a thing is even possible.&quot;<br /><br />Agreed that my theory postulates that LTT is a separate will from Rand. RJ seems to support this aswell as shown above with a quote where he says that Rand/LTT is 1 soul and 2 personalities. Of course he could refer to a split personality as a result from Rands Taint Insanity(tm).<br /><br />We still do not how a psychological problem like that would manifest itself in TAR where a will is all that is needed.<br /><br /><br />&quot;And, according to Wheel of Time FAQs (link below), the Lews-Therin-Telamon-is-real theory, by itself, has problems. The FAQ suggestions a blending of the two main theories: Rand's memories are a product of reincarnation (similar to Mat's tendency to remember Manetheren-related things and spout the Old Tongue even before he went through the second redstone door), while the voice and personality of Lews Therin that acts up in Rand's head? That's the taint. That's Rand going insane.&quot;<br /><br />Also agreed. My theory postulates that LTT is a real personality in Rands head. In my opinion that is the case and this theory was not meant to debate that issue.<br /><br /><br />-----<br /><br />I will do a rewrite of this theory during the spring/summet by the way. There are alot of usefull discussions in the comments and I want to incorporate them in to the general theory.<br /><br />Look out for LTT Reloaded!<br />


created: 2007-09-10 03:39:23
subject: <b>Well done.</b>
body:
A very well researched and well presented theory. I am going to have a second read (and then maybe even a third) to fully get my head around your evidence and the suppositions you have drawn. I comment further once I have.<br /><br />Again well done.


created: 2007-09-10 15:15:31
subject: <b>Good Job.</b>
body:
Careful and well researched.  I, also, have to think about it.  But I agree that you have approached an important issue that hadn't really occurred to me.


created: 2007-09-12 19:15:04
subject: <b>My one issue is this</b>
body:
If SG-Tar is manipulated by the use of TP, how did Graendal manipulate the room to look like Ansaline Gardens? <br /><br />he he....TAR-like.....ha ha <br /><br />Loved the theory<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rand.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perrin.gif" border="0" /><br />I don't fail. I succeed in finding what doesn't work. <br /><br /><font color="00ff33">Official Sponsor of the Melindhra Fan Club</font></font><p><a href="http://www.illwillpress.com" target="_blank">Feel the Squirley Wrath!!!!</a></p><p></p>


created: 2007-09-13 09:40:28
subject: <b>Thanks</b>
body:
Thanks MD, reptile, and lodlom for the kind words.<br /><br />To lodlom ... about your question ... in order to answer it, we need to distinguish between SG (the actually place in the real world) and SG-TAR (the TAR reflection of SG).<br /><br />Let me clarify what I think of both places:<br /><br />1. At SG<br /><br />- The DO has created a &quot;TAR-like&quot; reality there that is separate and distinct from the rest of the world.<br />- The DO can manipulate that reality to a very high degree.<br />- Ishamael/Moridin can ALSO manipulate that reality, using the TP, to some degree (certainly nowhere near as much as the DO can), at SHQ at least.<br /><br />I say that the reality at SG is &quot;TAR-like&quot; because of Moghedien's assertion in ACoS that the only possibility for the location of Moridin's room was &quot;near SG&quot; or &quot;TAR&quot; (implying that the realities of the two places are similar), and because we see some strange, &quot;TAR-like&quot; behavior there - for example, fires that don't give off heat and don't consume logs.<br /><br />2. At SG-TAR<br /><br />- This is the TAR reflection of SG, where the Forsaken meetings in WH and KoD took place.<br />- It's either separate and distinct from the TAR associated with the rest of the world (the idea being that if the reality of Place A (e.g. SG) is different from Place B (e.g. the rest of RandLand), then the TAR reflection of Place A (e.g. SG-TAR) is different (i.e. separate and distinct) from the TAR reflection of Place B (e.g. the TAR associated with the rest of RandLand).  Or, it's part of the same TAR as the rest of the world, but the DO uses his power to restrict access to Forsaken and shadowspawn only.<br />- Manipulating reality in SG-TAR is done the same way as it is done in the TAR reflection of the rest of the world.  It does NOT require the use of the TP (I did not mean to imply that it did).  For example, we know Aran'gar used her TAR abilities to create the dress she wore to the KoD meeting, and she certainly didn't use the TP to do <i>that</i>.<br /><br />The one thing I'm not so sure about is the view-wall at those meetings in SG-TAR.  If the view-wall is simply a product of TAR (for example, it's a TAR-created ter'angreal, much like the a'dam Nynaeve created to capture Moghedien in FoH), then it can be created and manipulated by any of the Forsaken.  That seems to be what Aran'gar thinks, and would certainly explain how Graendal was able to choose the settings.<br /><br />However, Demandred's comment in WH implied that it was their proximity to SG, not the fact that they were in TAR (which he never mentioned) that allowed them to create view-walls.  If that's true (and I personally believe it is), then the view-wall is not a product of TAR.  What is it then?  Well, I think it's a real view-wall (perhaps it's a kind of ter'angreal, or perhaps something else), created by Moridin, that is part of the real SHQ.  And, I think that the nature of reality at SG is what allowed Moridin to create a view-wall at SHQ.  That is, he would not be able to create a view-wall anywhere else in the world, just at SG.  If that's true, then it would also explain how Graendal was able to choose the settings - she simply activated the real view-wall.  The fact that they were all in SG-TAR at the time, rather that SG, was immaterial.  That is, if the meeting had taken place at SG instead of SG-TAR, she could still have activated the view-wall.<br /><br />Note that this latter explanation for the view-wall is another example of why I think reality at SG is &quot;TAR-like&quot;.<br /><br />Does that answer your question?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Rise and fall, turn the Wheel,<br />'cause all life is<br />Is really just a circle.&quot;<br /><br />-BHT&amp;tM</font><p></p>


created: 2007-09-13 13:46:55
subject: <b>Yes it does. thank!</b>
body:
again, awesome read!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rand.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perrin.gif" border="0" /><br />I don't fail. I succeed in finding what doesn't work. <br /><br /><font color="00ff33">Official Sponsor of the Melindhra Fan Club</font></font><p><a href="http://www.illwillpress.com" target="_blank">Feel the Squirley Wrath!!!!</a></p><p></p>


created: 2007-09-14 08:15:32
subject: <b>Great theory</b>
body:
I love the use of supporting references.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;The fact is, that to do anything in the world worth doing, we must not stand back shivering and thinking of the cold and danger, but jump in and scramble through as well as we can.&quot; -Robert Cushing<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/egwene.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2007-09-14 16:22:48
subject: <b>TAR</b>
body:
Very interesting and original theory.<br /><br />The main points that make me want to agree with you are:<br /> - Demondred's comment about creating View Walls away from SG<br /> - Moghedian's comment about it not feeling like TAR<br /> - moridan's whole living quarters seem to have some altered and manipulatable reality, like you say<br /><br />On the other hand, I have a few misgivings<br /><br /><br />My original opinion about the dark friend social from Bohrs point of view was that they were in TAR and that the Myrddraal and Trollocs and even Zomaran were created by Ishamael, and were not actually there in the flesh.  We have seen Trollocs be created by the Salidar AS when they were inexperienced, so it is definitely possible to create shadowspawn in TAR.<br /><br />There being shadowspawn is not IMOP an indication of anything special about the nature of TAR at these meetings or an indication that they are being affected in some way by the DO, I believe that they could have been created by Ishamael in TAR.  <br /><br />I agree that Thakandar valley must be getting some power by being near the DO, since the workers can only exist there.  The workers however i don't think are (or at least not before the seals started breaking) controlled by the DO. I think they were created by the Forsaken like Trollocs, Zomaran, etc. and have been doing their job of creating swords and weapons for all this time.<br /><br />As for the PoD entranceway cave, I don't think that the DO was necessarily changing reality, I think it's more likely that he has power over the peoples mind's there, and can create fear or make the person see things.  <br /><br />The blight: I think the blight may just be the world tainted by being near the DO's prison.  Even when the DO and the forsaken were totally sealed away some death or taint or  evil, or whatever still leaked out. i don't think that is consciously influenced by the DO.<br /><br />The place where Rand fought Ishamael in tEotW could have also been TAR, right?  He fought other forsaken in TAR in the flesh, why not Ishamael here?  It certainly seems like TAR the way Ishamael makes Rand's mother appear.


created: 2007-09-15 08:37:52
subject: <b>Thanks for the feedback, GS ...</b>
body:
<b>Very interesting and original theory.</b><br /><br />Thanks.<br /><br /><b>The main points that make me want to agree with you are:<br />- Demondred's comment about creating View Walls away from SG<br />- Moghedian's comment about it not feeling like TAR<br />- moridan's whole living quarters seem to have some altered and manipulatable reality, like you say</b><br /><br />Yes, those were the three things that motivated me to research this issue more, and try to come up with a theory to explain it all.<br /><br /><b>On the other hand, I have a few misgivings<br /><br />My original opinion about the dark friend social from Bohrs point of view was that they were in TAR and that the Myrddraal and Trollocs and even Zomaran were created by Ishamael, and were not actually there in the flesh. We have seen Trollocs be created by the Salidar AS when they were inexperienced, so it is definitely possible to create shadowspawn in TAR.</b><br /><br />Possible, but not very likely IMHO.  The zomaran were also in TAR at the KoD meeting, and Aran'gar's comments indicate that she thinks they are real, not TAR constructs (she thinks that Moridin must have found a stasis box, which of course wouldn't be necessary if they were simple TAR constructs).  Plus, in both cases, the zomaran exhibited their ability to read minds, which I don't think they could have done had they been simple TAR constructs.<br /><br />I certainly agree that the DFS was in TAR, though.<br /><br /><b>I agree that Thakandar valley must be getting some power by being near the DO, since the workers can only exist there. The workers however i don't think are (or at least not before the seals started breaking) controlled by the DO. I think they were created by the Forsaken like Trollocs, Zomaran, etc. and have been doing their job of creating swords and weapons for all this time.</b><br /><br />That's pretty much what I think, too.  I don't think the DO controls the forgers, but rather the forgers rely on the DO's enhanced power there to exist.<br /><br /><b>As for the PoD entranceway cave, I don't think that the DO was necessarily changing reality, I think it's more likely that he has power over the peoples mind's there, and can create fear or make the person see things.</b><br /><br />But Moghedien says that &quot;Reality was clay to the Great Lord here&quot;, when she was walking through the tunnel to the PoD.  She, at least, seems to think the weird tunnel is a result of the DO manipulating reality there.  Plus, the stone spikes hanging down from the ceiling were jabbing her flesh and catching her dress, at the end.  Seems more than just mind control, to me.<br /><br /><b>The blight: I think the blight may just be the world tainted by being near the DO's prison. Even when the DO and the forsaken were totally sealed away some death or taint or evil, or whatever still leaked out. i don't think that is consciously influenced by the DO.</b><br /><br />That's pretty much what I think, too.  That is, I think the Blight is a result of the DO's Power - the TP - leaking out in that area, and corrupting it.  Whether or not it's a deliberate act by the DO is hard to say, but the fact that the Blight retreats when the Shadow suffers a significant defeat (like it did at the end of TEotW, and again later when Ishamael died at the end of TDR) suggests that it is tied to the power of the DO, and not just expanding and shrinking on its own.<br /><br /><b>The place where Rand fought Ishamael in tEotW could have also been TAR, right? He fought other forsaken in TAR in the flesh, why not Ishamael here? It certainly seems like TAR the way Ishamael makes Rand's mother appear.</b><br /><br />Definitely.  I think the place was in TAR, too - I did not mean to imply otherwise.  The first time Rand was drawn there was while he was dreaming, so it really had to be  TAR, then.  And, I think the second time was TAR also, even though Rand wasn't dreaming then.  It seems like he somehow reached it via the Skimming place, then.<br /><br />But, it's the TAR reflection of &quot;someplace&quot;, right?  That's what I was trying to get at - what is it the TAR reflection of?  <br /><br />Is it the TAR reflection of SHQ near SG, and the striated sky, weird melted walls, and strange fireplace were all just illusions created by Ishamael to frighten/manipulate Rand?<br /><br />Or, is it in some sort of TAR reflection of the reality as seen from the PoD, and the striated sky, etc. were &quot;real&quot;?<br /><br />I discussed both possibilites in the theory, but I tend to think the former, personally.  I don't think the reality as seen from the PoD can be reached by humans (or anything else) from Rand's world.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Rise and fall, turn the Wheel,<br />'cause all life is<br />Is really just a circle.&quot;<br /><br />-BHT&amp;tM</font><p></p>


created: 2007-09-15 21:35:00
subject: <b>I disagree on one point</b>
body:
I don't think the sky as seen by Rand quite matches the one seen on the slopes of SG<br /><br />Rand saw <br /><br />&quot;a leaden cauldron of a sky where clouds of <b>sharp black and silver</b> roiled and boiled on every horizon&quot;<br /><br />&quot;Steamy mists covered the canyon floor, their <b>thick gray</b> surface rolling in grim waves, rolling and breaking against the cliff beneath him, but more slowly than any ocean wave had ever moved&quot;<br /><br />&quot;Thunder rumbled in the depths of the valley, and lightening crackled through the gray, sometimes striking up at the sky&quot;<br /><br />Demandred saw <br /><br />&quot;roiling <b>gray</b> clouds hid the sky, an inverted sea of sluggish ashen waves crashing around the mountain's peak... Lightning streaked up at the clouds, and slow thunder rolled&quot;<br /><br />Rand's sky was &quot;sharp black and silver&quot;, which doesn't match Demandred's sky of pure &quot;gray&quot;.<br /><br />In fact, the sky as seen by Demandred closely matches what Rand thought was the canyon floor!<br /><br />Let's scale it up a little bit<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tinfoilhat.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Shayol Ghul is how tall?<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/oh.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Asmodean:  You?  No!<br /><br />Ruarc:  Sorry!  Sometimes I forget to wear pants!<br /><br />        -Isam's WoT Summaries</font><p></p>


created: 2007-09-21 16:39:12
subject: <b>I voted yes</b>
body:
But mostly for the idea that Ishmael truly believes his course of action is justified.  But at the same time I would disagree that their motivations were &quot;not&quot; evil.  Making the decision to risk the world for your own private satisfaction at being right is hardly the best motivation.  And Lanfear is still Lanfear.  LTT couldn't be that wrong about her.  Particularly I am of the opinion that even the most sadistic people have admirable and &quot;good&quot; traits and vice versa.  Just because Lanfear was appreciative of and nice to her Aiel has no bearing on her public or professional behavior.  But in any case very cool theory.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where did these Skimmers come from?  I mean if they didn't want to read the book they could have just Traveled to another author.  Why risk arriving at the wrong destination?  Why risk falling into darkness?</font><p></p>


created: 2007-09-21 19:12:44
subject: <b>The point is Moot</b>
body:
While the ying and yang of the Creator/Dark One is a great discussion, the point is absolutely moot. There are reasons why this is so.<br /> <br />   1) We already know the outcome. We don't know HOW it will happen, but we've been given enough to know that the DO will be held back. We don't know if only the Forsaken will die off or if the Bore will be completely sealed (I'm for Moiraine coming back with the knowlege how to close the bore from the Aelfinn/Eelfinn).<br /><br />   2) In this turning of the Wheel, we know that the good guys win. <br />&quot;The Wheel of Time turns, and Ages come and pass, leaving memories that become legend. Legend fades to myth, and even myth is long forgotten when the Age that gave it birth comes again. In one Age, called the Third Age by some, and Age yet to come, an Age long past, a wind rose...&quot;<br />   We all know this is the beginning to chapter 1 of each book except TEotW. Did anyone really pay attention the the end of CoT?<br />&quot;We rode on the winds of the rising storm,/We ran to the sounds of the thunder./We danced among the lightning blots,/and tore the world asunder.  -Anonymous fragment of a poem believed written near the end of the previous Age, known by some as the Third Age. Sometimes attributed to the Dragon Reborn.&quot;<br />   This is proof that the Fourth Age is well and good. Why is it proof? If the DO had won, nothing the Dragon Reborn had said or did would be allowed to reach the public and give hope to a crushed population.<br />   Also, Aviendha has quadriplets to Rand, &quot;...but there is something odd about them&quot; -Min. Rand has to finish the war in order for Aviendha to have the babies, but not necessarily getting her pregnant before the wars end. Does anyone believe Aviendha is going to miss the Last Battle? I don't either and if the good guys loose, the she dies.<br /><br />   3)According to Ishamael/Moridin, the DO HAS been freed before. But only when the Dragon has been turned to the DO's side. If this is correct, then the DO can not destroy the Wheel of Time. If he could, he whould have the last time he was out. Time still moves on and always will. <br /><br />   The relationship between the Creator and the Dark One I think has been best described by another arthor, Raymond Feist. In his books, he takes the readers back to the creation of his Universe. Two entities known as Creation &amp; Chaos. One made the begining pieces of the universe while the other destroyed it. Over and over they did this in a circle. <br /><br />   In RJ's universe, they either became sentient at some point or started out that way. The Creator imprisoned the DO to stop him from undoing what the Creator had done. When the DO touches the world he brings chaos as his nature is. When he is completely free, he breaks down the universe and the Creator must imprison him again before the total universe is gone. It's trully that simple.<br /><br />   And if anyone wishes to read another very good Epic writer, start with the Riftwar Saga 'Magician' by Raymond Feist. In the US it's broken down into 2 books 'Magician: Apprentice' &amp; Magician: Master'. In the 4th book 'A Darkness at Sethanon' we get to see the beginning of the Universe.


created: 2007-09-22 21:17:58
subject: <b>I don't think the point is moot</b>
body:
I believe the author is suggesting that if Creation is a prison then it is not wrong to try to destory your prison.  For example, the theoritical notion that it is better to die free than to live enslaved.  Of course there is the question of if that is all you know then how would one be able to create the nothion of something other.  In this sense the choice that Ishmael makes has the same validity whether or not the DO wins or not.  Also while I am not an expert of probability I don't think the wheel is destined ot be broke.  There have been discussion here regarding the cicular nature of time versus the circular nature of time.  The very existence of such a pattern &quot;protects&quot; the universe from destruction because it has references for previous patterns to help the wheel repair itself by remembering what came before even though the DO is currently distorting the present pattern.  In this way I would say that the probability of the DO winning decrease with each turning of the Wheel.  The more ages the Wheel has to reference the fewer options the DO has to exert.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where did these Skimmers come from?  I mean if they didn't want to read the book they could have just Traveled to another author.  Why risk arriving at the wrong destination?  Why risk falling into darkness?</font><p></p>


created: 2007-09-23 17:44:10
subject: <b>Glad you mentioned pawns</b>
body:
Bear in mind that I ramble.<br /><br />I look at it a bit like a chess game between the creator and the dark one. Just because you are black in chess doesn't mean you are the antagonist of the game. Consider that all people are born pawns, and the forsaken have graduated to a special piece of some kind. The people themselves may be evil, but ultimately the lord they serve is of the same moral character as the creator. The game is one where each player has a different handicap and advantage. Consider the Matrix movies. The good guys killed normal people all the time, but weren't evil, they were serving the greater good


created: 2007-09-24 17:47:13
subject: <b>Philosophy sweet</b>
body:
I always felt the AOL would have been extremely boring.  Humanity needs strife and conflict.  With out the bad or &#8220;evil&#8221; how would we appreciate the good?  If I didn&#8217;t need to work for food or other needs, why would I?  Paradise indicates that nobody went wanting, there isn&#8217;t any fear.  If all my wants &amp; needs are met, why should I strive or work for more or better?  There is zero incentive to progress.  I like your theory, I do not know if I agree that the creator and dark one switch up, but I can see how it could be pulled off.


created: 2007-09-25 00:52:46
subject: <b>i love ishamael</b>
body:
But you assume that the probability of DO breaking out per unit time is constant in time. Consider: prob of breakout = 1/2 on the first turn of the wheel, 1/4 on the second, 1/8 on the third, 1/16th on the fourth,etc. Then probability is nonzero at each point, yet I am not convinced that in this case, DO's breaking out will happen with probability 1 as time goes to infinity. You'd need to do some fairly serious mathematics to determine that.


created: 2007-09-26 03:18:47
subject: <b>The math is rather easy</b>
body:
It is simply the intergration of dx/dt. In this case 1/2x dt as t approches infinity. What that means is, as t(time) gets closer to infinity, every section under the curve is cut in half. But because there is always a piece left, there is always SOME chance, however small. It is simply calculas.


created: 2007-09-27 12:20:30
subject: <b>I really have to disagree with this theory</b>
body:
First just because something will happen eventually does not give you the right to make it happen now.  Even when something bad will happen eventually the good is to keep fighting it regardless.  Look at norse mythology for a good example of this.  Progress is not the be all and end all of good.  Even if breaking the wheel would lead to our world (which I don't think it would) than the fact that more evil is possible in this world than in the AOL makes that evil.  Anything that increases the chance of evil later is evil.  Serving the dark one is evil and always will be.  Thankfully this isn't the prince of nothing...


created: 2007-09-27 13:56:37
subject: <b>Ishamael's Intentions were Good.</b>
body:
I completely agree with where the author of this theory was heading. In order for there to be good, there must be an opposite. When the world is completely good, the only way to change it is to be bad. That is where we get our fourth age, it is an age of bad asserting it's influence against the paradise of the third age.<br /><br />It is true that life has no meaning if there isn't progress. Each life that is born on this planet is merely another step in the advancement of the race as a whole. We do that through thought and teaching, through making babies, through constructing multi-generational structures. If all knowledge is lost, if the world gets torn apart, and many many people are killed over and over again, then individual lives were completely wasted. If every age must be restarted at square one every time, what is the point of building civilization up once more.<br /><br />I believe that the wheel of time should be broken, and Ishamael/Moridin believes that too. Rand has been doing alot of thinking lately and probably believes the same, though we don't know that for sure. I believe that in the end of AMoL, Rand and Moridin are going to face each other, have a chat over a cup of tea and discuss this philosophy. Moridin will be too damned to fulfill the noble act of destroying the wheel and Rand will have to kill him. Then Rand will do it himself. Perhaps this is the purpose of the wheel in the first place, to continually refine a soul until he is perfect enough to finally set humanity free. (this is the same idea that Frank Herbert originally set out for his millions of reborn Duncan Idaho's in his Dune series, which he also died while in mid-creation).<br /><br />So to conclude this long ramble, Rand and Ishamael are working towards the same goal (and maybe this is a little farfetched, but possibly the same soul that had divided which would also explain why they are in each others heads after their balefire beams collided). Ishamael went about achieving this goal the wrong way and will be punished for it, while Rand will accomplish it because he is a hero.<br /><br />As a side note to tack on the end here, the original meaning of the word Dragon was the leader of a troop. Ever wonder why dragons are long and sinuous, made up of many scales? It's because they are regiments of armoured men marching in formation. That's where the words Dracula, Dragoon and Druzhina and Draught came from. Rand is not a scaly serpent, he is the leader of men.


created: 2007-09-27 18:29:21
subject: <b>Inevitibility as justification</b>
body:
<br /><b>From the theory</b><i><br />If the result is total oblivion, again, why not? If it CAN happen, it WILL happen, sooner or later. Why not end it and have the satisfaction of seeing your theory come true before your eyes, and to know the REASON for why you and reality fade away into nonexistence on the Day of Return?<br /><br />Same reason for the Dark Earth scenario. It might not be a pleasant world, but it is an INEVITABLE one, in the long run. Why not get yourself a front-row seat? Besides, while the DO is very powerful, he is not necessarily omnipotent even when free. There is a chance that he might be defeated, which I believe was Lanfear's idea with her talk of challenging the DO, and even the Creator, with Rand. Let the DO break the Wheel, then destroy him. If she and Rand using the Choedan Kal wouldn't be able to do it, no-one could. Maybe she didn't love Rand particularly; maybe, she didn't even love power, as such, not in the way LTT accuses her of loving it. She also wants progress, to drive progress, and why not be in the driving seat while you're at it?<br /></i><br /><br />Does the inevitability of the dark one breaking free (if it is inevitable) justify supporting it and making it happen as soon as possible? <br /><br />Or is this train of though similar to saying, &quot;All humans die eventually. This is inevitable. Therefore, murdering people is OK&quot;?


created: 2007-10-06 15:18:06
subject: <b>Wow</b>
body:
What a lot of discussion came out of this theory.<br /><br />I voted no, because the question was &quot;Serving the Dark One is morally OK?&quot; There was nothing about the rationale in the question. <br /><br />Serving the Dark One may be understandable or &quot;reasonable&quot; as in being a result of a reasoned thought process. However, the MORALITY remains unequivocal. As has already been stated, gratifying one's own selfish wants or needs at the cost of others is never morally correct.<br /><br />Personally, in Randland I would accept the concept of order/chaos much as in Feist's Riftwar books. The creator is the bringer of order, whereas the DO is the purveyor of disorder.<br /><br />However, one aspect of RJ's universe that wasn't touched upon is the multitude of alternate realities (as in Rand's and &quot;Selene's&quot; journey through the Waystone, where we were shown a world where Hawkwing lost his battles). <br /><br />My suspicion would tend to be that the DO rules in a number of alternate realities. Perhaps one could call them anti-realities as opposed to realities. Randland is currently going through a period of time where either side may win and thus convert it from a reality world to an anti-reality world. However, in another, anti-reality world. where perhaps LTT was on the side of the dark (as Ishaemael also alluded to has happened in the past), there may well be someone struggling to free the Light One!<br /><br />The bottom line is, however, that this is all a different issue. The theory pertained to morality and in that case, there is never a case for being immoral.<br /><br />Unless it's fun........ <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />


created: 2007-10-07 06:23:23
subject: <b>No</b>
body:
Why would I serve something I thought was evil?<br /><br />I like the Dr. Strangelove refrence, though.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> I'm not strange. I'm normal. Everyone else is strange. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> Oosta! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2007-10-11 12:29:27
subject: <b>I'm down with stuporsteve here</b>
body:
and one can only make ishy's choice, as outlined in this theory, if you develop a nihilistic existential bend. It has a bit of a juvinile male slant to it to, &quot;I have this cherry-bomb, let's blow something up for the fun of it!&quot; It is not morrally aceptable to destroy something, other people's lives, creation, because you can and it may free your soul from some imagined, it cannot be real to you, infinite loop prison. Sysiphus keeps going up the hill.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Junius Maltby Lives!</font><p></p>


created: 2007-10-17 15:45:22
subject: <b>A point</b>
body:
For those who accept the reasonability of Choosing the DO how can you not accept the morality of it.<br /><br />If Ishameal believes (by way of evidence) that existence is a trap and therefore meaningless.  How is it not morally acceptable to &quot;free&quot; humanity from its prison.<br /><br />I suppose the actual moral question is if rescuing someone for their own good with out consent is morally ok or in the instance that the world is guaranteed to be destroyed is it worse to be dead or be a slave.<br /><br />Another question is whether Ishmael considers what death would ,mean in linear time.  Would there be reincarnation or heaven or nothing?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where did these Skimmers come from?  I mean if they didn't want to read the book they could have just Traveled to another author.  Why risk arriving at the wrong destination?  Why risk falling into darkness?</font><p></p>


created: 2007-11-02 23:42:54
subject: <b>Inevitable?</b>
body:
I have a problem with the use of the term &quot;inevitable&quot; in this theory.  For the sake of practicality, let's say there exists free will which can affect the likelihood of events.  Then just because something CAN happen doesn't make it inevitable even in a multiverse of wheels.<br /><br />If Moridin had the final choice of whether or not to release the Dark One, it may be that all of his parallel counterparts will choose the same way as him; but that is not the same as saying they must all choose one way or the other.  You might look at it as if, for that instant, there is only one Moridin throughout all worlds, and that Moridin has free will to choose however.  Visualized in such a way, it becomes much easier to see how effective free will counters notions of inevitability.<br /><br />If there is free will, then oblivion and dystopia may both be possible without being inevitable.  If even one person in the Wheel has free will -- and there is no practical reason to assume otherwise -- then these ends must be considered non-neutral and non-moot.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="white">|</font>&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;<img src="images/personalsmilies/747.gif" /><br />Only so evil.</font><p></p>


created: 2008-07-18 17:26:54
subject: <b>Some general observations</b>
body:
Premise: the Creator created Randland/the Patternverse mainly to get rid of the DO, as the lines about the wheel being the DO's prison seem to suggest.<br /><br />- Human status in the Prison: Given that premise, it seems likely that the purpose of having sentient races in it fits mainly a caretaker, or maybe immune system, role. This possibility fits the facts, as the books say that the history of the Wheel is basically that of patching and repatching the Bore.<br /><br />- The DO&#180;s morality, part one: The DO doesn&#180;t particularily hate people per se. His main purpose is to break free, or at least his conversation with Demandred  seems to point towards that direction(&quot;EVEN I CANNOT STEP OUTSIDE<br />OF TIME. For an instant terrible anger filled that awful voice, and&#8212; could it be frustration? An instant only.&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br />True, this doesn&#180;t necessarily mean that he doesn&#180;t get a kick out of mischief, but his main purpose is to break out of his prison through any means necessary, just like the Creator&#180;s main purpose in creating Randland was to lock him in. He is more ruthless than evilness incarnate.<br /><br />- The DO's morality, part two: demands absolute loyalty, and  punishes violations harshly (Mesaana comes to mind. A rape as punishment for avoiding a summons seems rather harsh). On the other hand, most religions present their starring deities doing the same. And the DO does seem to stick out for his followers, granting them priviledges, and saving them from destruction (Ishamael) even when they are not particularily competent (Bathamel, Aginor) or loyal (Lanfear, Morgheiden). Heck, maybe Asmodean would have gotten the same rez + mindtrap treatment, if he hadn&#180;t been balefired.<br /><br />- Ishamael, the DO, and gnosticism:<br />Well, many have stated this before: Ishamael is the only one working for the DO's aim in full knowledge. We can see this here<br /><br />&quot;You and I have fought a thousand battles with the turning of the Wheel, a thousand times a<br />thousand, and we will fight until time dies and the Shadow is triumphant!&quot;<br /><br />However, he does not seem to think that destruction of time will mean oblivion. In fact, he thinks the contrary:<br />&quot;You live like a beetle under a rock, and you think<br />your slime is the universe. The death of time will bring me power such as you could not dream<br />of, worm.&quot;<br /><br />His position seems somewhat simmilar to that of the gnostics, which held the belief that the universe was a trap (sounds familiar) created by a minor god, the Demiurge


created: 2008-07-18 17:30:11
subject: <b>last post incomplete</b>
body:
Anyway, Ishy&#180;s philosophy fits rather well with old age gnosticism:<br />There&#180;s a creator god that created the flawed world as a prison, and his aim is to escape it and escape to the &quot;true&quot; universe. Namely, in Ishy&#180;s case: by killing time he achieves some form of godhood. He says as much in the EotW. I had found some &#231;uotes to support this, but a net hiccup baleeted it all


created: 2008-07-19 00:42:07
subject: <b>Two criticisms of the claim that serving the Dark One is good:</b>
body:
1.  I think there IS something to lose in fighting for the Dark One.  I have a feeling that if you give your soul to the Dark One, you don't get reincarnated.  He just puts your soul somewhere miserable and uses you for something.  If you fail, you die and basically go to hell for punishment.  If you succeed, you have no guarantee that he rewards you!  You only have power over yourself.  But if you give it up the Dark one...<br />On the light side of things, if you live a natural, constructive life, you get to be a human being with free will and love and compassion!  What more do you want?  That's why it's good to be good.<br /><br />2.  &quot;Success [for the DO] is highly uncertain&quot; - I believe it's impossible for the Dark One to finally win.  The current state of existence (in which the Wheel turns endlessly over the seven ages/spokes, retelling the same basic storyline) has no entropy.  If the Dark One wins, there will be entropy (check out your Trolloc paradox for reasons why).  That means world's energy will eventually disappear and the world will cease to exist.  I don't have support for these claims, but it's the feeling I get from reading the books.<br />So, if the Dark One winning means the end of the universe, it's no real victory - his new world will die.  I think that means he doesn't truly want to win.  I wonder if he knows this.


created: 2008-07-19 09:06:49
subject: <b>actually...</b>
body:
as I said, the destruction of the world doesnt necessarily mean the attitude is suicidal. Gnostics believed in leaving the mundane world (&quot;the lie&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> behind, in order to ascend to the &quot;real&quot; universe. Maybe Ishamael expects the same: through destroying the wheel, he escapes the cycles, and becomes divine in the process.


created: 2007-10-07 17:06:40
subject: <b>Welcome back</b>
body:
No-one is so far gone in the Dark that they cannot return to the Light, so welcome back.<br /><br />I didn't understand half of what you wrote, but at least you could confuse the Dark One into submission!<br /><br />


created: 2007-10-09 07:39:12
subject: <b>jaffas is right...</b>
body:
this is well organized and thought out. i enjoyed reading it. i vote yes.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">___________________________<br />i'm a WoThead <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br />___________________________<br />When all else fails, laugh.<br />___________________________<br /><br /><i>Tai'Shar Charleston, S.C.!</i></font><p></p>


created: 2007-10-10 17:44:35
subject: <b>God is dead</b>
body:
&quot;So you're a superintelligence, with very high bandwidth connections to trillions of other superintelligences. But the world is profoundly boring. Oh you might engage in chitchat over tea about trivialities like the proof of Fermat's Theorem, but the central fact will remain that existence, i.e. computation, in itself has no value. Reason will always end with a glass ceiling. So what do you do?&quot;<br /><br />I'm not sure existentialism is the end game of intelligence. We're too smart for God, so there must not be a God, and oh look, no God means no universals, no values, no ethics. I'm not going to argue for God here, useless effort, but I will, try, to argure that life itself is it's own universal. Life provides its own obligations, not least of which is its own creation. If your down with Darwin an animals only real purpose is to make babies. With a single universal one can extrapolate all sorts of things, an ethics for one. Life is it's own purpose, I would think. sounds circular, and perhaps it is, but that's where I'm leaning.   <br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Junius Maltby Lives!</font><p></p>


created: 2007-10-10 18:20:31
subject: <b>well...</b>
body:
I don't know if I agree with all the points but it was definetly well written.<br /><br />I have always suspected the DO doesn't speak in all caps to Ishy, however.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Proud Spokesman of <b>Soylent Green</b>, the Tasty Trolloc Chow, try our new flavor &#8211; Shienaran Stew! <br /><i>Soylent Green is a registered subsidiary of Demandred Inc. For free catalog write 666 East Shayol Ghul Blvd, PO Box 13, Blight, zip code 45098</i><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2007-10-15 09:02:26
subject: <b>It sounds pretty good to me!</b>
body:
though i'll admit i only read about half of it, here and there.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> Warder to ViolentKai <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> FredWeasleys Asha'man <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> Screamingdefiances Asha'man <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />The Grave Is No Bar To My Call<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2007-10-18 00:34:48
subject: <b>Amazing</b>
body:
Great. The two theories are simply, undeniably masterpieces. Although this was a little dense. I think I'll go read something lighter now, like Thoreau, or maybe a book on quantum physics...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Most Magnificent Master of Metaphors<br />&quot;Take life by the horns. Then when its thrashing around--castrate it!&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2008-07-22 10:35:35
subject: <b>the DO's capslock key is jammed</b>
body:
I stand by my theory of gnostic Ishamael: he doesn&#180;t choose the shadow out of struggle for struggle&#180;s sake (through wouldn&#180;t that make him one of Nietzche&#180;s ubermensches, able to create his own values?). He, like the ancient gnostic cults, believes that the physical world is a prison, and wants to leave it in favor of the true universe/godhood. Unlike the ancient gnostics, his method spins around having his buddy Shaitan break it up, and hopefully pull him out of the wreck.<br /><br /><br />


created: 2008-01-29 09:41:31
subject: <b>To some, not so crazy ...</b>
body:
It's been suggested before that Rand will be ripped from TAR, ala Birgitte, in order to live again after dying.  As you said, the Rand/LTT soul is definitely a Hero soul (we learned that at Falme, from Hawkwing IIRC), so it's certainly possible.<br /><br />I doubt, though, that Alivia will be the one to do it.  According to Min's viewing, she will &quot;help Rand die&quot;, not &quot;help Rand live again&quot;.<br /><br />A better candidate for ripping Rand from TAR is Nynaeve - she saw Moghedien do it to Birgitte, so she should have some idea how it's done.  Plus, it's more in line with her character, IMO.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Rise and fall, turn the Wheel,<br />'cause all life is<br />Is really just a circle.&quot;<br /><br />-BHT&amp;tM</font><p></p>


created: 2008-01-30 14:37:11
subject: <b>Good, but...</b>
body:
It's possible.  But I feel that it's more likely that something about merging consciousnesses will be more likely, though I'm not sure how.  More in the sense of converting to Christ is to be &quot;born again&quot;, that sort of metaphor.  <br /><br />&quot;To live you have to die&quot; is similar, one has to die to the world to be born again.  Would a convergence/reintegration of LTT and Rand qualify?  Or will Rand &quot;transmigrate&quot; to Moridin's body after draining it of Moridin's soul?<br /><br />Or something else.  Your theory is interesting, but I suspect that the plot will move in another direction.<br /><br />But maybe I'm wrong.


created: 2008-01-30 15:40:49
subject: <b>I quite agree</b>
body:
I think this is a very likely way to 'wrap things up' for Rand and his wives. After all, some have suggested that Rand and LTT have already re-integrated, and that at some point Rand and Moradin will merge too...maybe in death it will only be Rand's soul that is 'joined to the horn' (didn't Hawkwing say that it was Rand who would be bound? not a 'Rand/LTT/Moradin' combo?).<br />Rand could have all these terrible things happen to him so he can win the Final Battle, and this could be his trump card to get back to a semi-normal life.


created: 2008-01-30 22:33:17
subject: <b>Really cool idea</b>
body:
I think it's really plausible. Questions:<br /><br />does anyone really know what is going to happen to birgitte? if the same things happen loosely every 7 ages, this must have happened to her before, right? does the wheel create someone new to fill birgittes spot every 3rd age? or does birgitte get re-intigrated somehow?<br />If the same thing happens to rand we must wonder if this works for him too.<br /><br />If rand dies once assumedly at tarmon gaidon, how will a second chance help him? <br /><br />Alivia will 'help him die,' not help him back to life, so if this happens i dont think it will be her who rips him out.<br /><br />Although it seems to make sense, i get the feeling its sorta a bug, a trick to the end of the series. i feel it will be something more dramatic. of course, there can be no evidence for that kindof thing.<br /><br />Thanks so much for posting a great new theory! i love reading and comenting on new theories.. sadly i can never seem to think of any myself..<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/frown.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">-Sabin<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2008-01-31 07:11:11
subject: <b>hmmmm maybe</b>
body:
Look DeathBySnuSnu (I love that episode of Futurama BTW) I was just so gosh-darn happy (see - I'm even avoiding typing cursewords I'm so grateful) to see a new theory I just voted a &quot;thumbs-up&quot; without even reading your theory.<br /><br />When I went back and read through it though I gotta say thanks for posting a theory and as the many posts above have said Alivia may help kill him - she wont be responsible for bringing him back. I too recall seeing something along these lines posted before - either here or on the Theoryland website. Will need to go and search.<br /><br />Thanks again for your work.


created: 2008-01-31 11:06:24
subject: <b>Good to see a new Theory</b>
body:
Interesting, i agree that Rand is going to be ripped from T'A'R but i seriously doubt aliva will do it<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;I look pretty young, but I'm just back dated&quot; The Who</font><p><a href="http://www.myspace.com/jefflewisband" target="_blank">My New Favourite Music Person</a></p><p></p>


created: 2008-01-31 14:55:18
subject: <b>Yo, Sabin...</b>
body:
Just to answer one of your questions, in tGH, when the Heroes are talking to Rand, Hawkwing says something, can't clearly remember, but it's along the lines of &quot;From time to time the Wheel adds to our number&quot; or something. I feel that during TG, Birgitte will re-establish herself as a hero worthy of the Horn, and get her link back.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Of course you should fight fire with fire! You should fight EVERYTHING with fire!<br /><br />-Al'Gai, the Son of Battle<br />A.K.A. Anaro Ravenclaw,<br />Technomancer for the next Millenium <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/borg.gif" border="0" /><br />Revenant Bounty Hunter Extroidinaire <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2008-01-31 16:31:11
subject: <b>Birgitte</b>
body:
Min has read Birgitte since she was ripped out and saw more adventure in her future than could be fit into one womans lifetime so it's a pretty safe bet that she's still bound to the Horn.<br /><br />Someone commented one the screenname -  I laugh myself sick everytime I see those grinning skeletons with the crushed pelvises.


created: 2008-01-31 21:00:07
subject: <b>I like it</b>
body:
If purely because of that fact that I've been craving a new theory for ages.  On another subject, Futurama has to be the most underrated show of all time.  Excellent name.<br /><br />&quot;With my last breath I curse Zoidberg!!&quot;<br />&quot;I'll ruin you like I ruined this company.&quot; <br />&quot;Ahhwhaa..?&quot; <br /><br />It never gets old.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Funny thing about weekends when you're unemployed, they don't mean quite so much...except you get to hang out with your working friends.&quot;<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2008-02-01 19:26:47
subject: <b>Why Alivia?</b>
body:
Nynaeve is a much better choice. We know that she is at least as strong as Moghedien, so she should be able to do it. And I think she has gotten stronger since she fought with Moghedien last, so I bet she will be safer to pull Birgitte out.<br /><br />Good theory though.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Poets have been mysteriously silent on the subject of cheese.&quot;     -G. K. Chesterton<br /> <br />My naked walrus is on fire. <img src="images/personalsmilies/41668.gif" /><br /><br />TEVT: We are back in business! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/w00t.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2008-02-06 11:10:41
subject: <b>IDK</b>
body:
let me just add, i was really glad to see another new theory after so long as well. however, didn't ishy tell rand that this time if he died he wouldn't ever be reborn again? just a thought.


created: 2008-02-07 16:02:34
subject: <b>Final death</b>
body:
&quot;Ishmael is a lying liar who lies&quot;  <br /><br />but, I think he was referring to the death of the wheel if Rnad dies and the dark one breaks free


created: 2008-02-08 09:03:11
subject: <b>I think it is very plausable.</b>
body:
I've thought for a while that the &quot;live but die&quot; thing has somehow been connected to the horn.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> Warder to ViolentKai <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> FredWeasleys Asha'man <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> Screamingdefiances Asha'man <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />The Grave Is No Bar To My Call<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2008-02-09 09:53:39
subject: <b>ok i see it.</b>
body:
i liked that theory. i have wondered if his answer from the finn could mean one of his personalities gets it while rand lives on. or maybe rand gets killed and the dragon takes his body over. i liked this so much as an another possibility.


created: 2008-02-19 09:14:45
subject: <b>Nyneave</b>
body:
is said to know how to do somthing after only seeing it once, (boat ride to TV) so she would know how to get Rand out of the dream world.


created: 2008-02-25 03:52:34
subject: <b>Almost.</b>
body:
I say this is great theory ecxept for the Alivia part.<br /><br />And Thanks For First Theory That Got Throught The Pending Theories Section! Wohoo!!! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /> Carai an Caldazar! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Warder to Model_02<br /><br />Hyv&#228; Suomi!!! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/w00t.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Taking responsibility takes all the joy out of life, and drains a man to dust.  -Mat Cauthon<br /><br />Never kiss a girl whose brothers have knifescars.          -Mat Cauthon</font><p></p>


created: 2008-02-25 03:54:06
subject: <b>Whoops.</b>
body:
Not first theory. First theory in ages, was what I meant to say.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /> Carai an Caldazar! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Warder to Model_02<br /><br />Hyv&#228; Suomi!!! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/w00t.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Taking responsibility takes all the joy out of life, and drains a man to dust.  -Mat Cauthon<br /><br />Never kiss a girl whose brothers have knifescars.          -Mat Cauthon</font><p></p>


created: 2008-09-19 12:28:26
subject: <b>This Could Bring Back A &quot;Whole&quot; Rand</b>
body:
I don't agree with the entire theory but I think this could bring back a Rand without the unhealed wounds, the wining of LTT and chaneling sickness. He could be ripped out of the world of dreams ready to crack open a can on the DO with two hands for weaving and a clear head for thinking.<br />Great Post


created: 2008-02-27 12:52:13
subject: <b>yay new theory</b>
body:
Interesting idea that it can decay. Peronally I believe the reason that there is so little cuendillar is because that not many AoLers could in fact make, they didn't want to make it, and thefact the world got torn up so badly there is probably a pile of it under the sea or on top of some ridiculously high mountain.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;I look pretty young, but I'm just back dated&quot; The Who</font><p><a href="http://www.myspace.com/jefflewisband" target="_blank">My New Favourite Music Person</a></p><p></p>


created: 2008-02-27 16:48:06
subject: <b>Congratulations...</b>
body:
On an excellent thought very lucidly explained. I love the idea. I have frequently paused and thought about why the seals are crumbling. Initially I thought it was because they required both Saidar and Saidin and since the taint came into being the One Power had been affected. A little bit like the Ways started decaying.<br />It wasn't until The Salidar Aes Sedai started making cuendillar themselves that I realised that this wasn't the case.<br />Anyway, this is as good, or more accurately better than any other explanations that I've come across.<br />Good work.


created: 2008-02-27 18:25:57
subject: <b>Very nicely put</b>
body:
A very nice theory I myself was confuzed at why it was so soft and you have thoroughly convinced me.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Aiel and Whitecloaks perfect Allies<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2008-02-28 17:31:03
subject: <b>Very Good.</b>
body:
That makes perfect sense except the other peices of heartstone that are (and I will throw in a &quot;supposedly&quot; unless the chan channel up some sort of carbon dating)from the Age of legends aren't decaying. At least not at the same pace. So there has to be something more to the explanation. But it is a good start.


created: 2008-02-28 21:05:52
subject: <b>Excellent</b>
body:
Good point and well thought out.<br /><br />To mhael whatever who first commented, if so many people in egwene's camp can make it and they're all way less talented than AOLers, seems unlikely few aolers could do it. why wouldnt they want to make it? <br /><br />another thought: as pointed out, since something infinitely strong can not be made stronger (also a good thought to apply to the concept of infintely powerful beings, such as god) cuendillar cannot be infinitely strong.<br />cuendillar plus power used against it = stronger cuendillar.<br />could it be as simple as:<br />cuendillar plus power taken from it = weaker cuendillar?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">-Sabin<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2008-02-29 12:07:39
subject: <b>Nice theory, but most likely wrong.</b>
body:
I have to come to the conclusion that you're wrong. RJ's left it very open to interpretation that Cuendillar gets stronger if force is applied. What then if it's power were to be leeched away? As in sucked out of it. Not directing power away from it, but stealing it's power. In essence, weakinging the weaves of the Power that give it such structural integrity in the first place.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> &quot;I'm the D.O.&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /> &quot;No I am&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rand.gif" border="0" /> &quot;KILL THEM!&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /> &quot;You can't possibly win!&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" />*smirks* &quot;Ya wanna make a bet???&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perrin.gif" border="0" /> *mutters* &quot;stupid axe&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/avi.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/min.gif" border="0" /> &quot;YOU CAN DO IT!&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2008-03-01 13:43:16
subject: <b>Only a part</b>
body:
Of course, the posters who have emphasized the fact that the seals are the only ones we see degrading are correct; obviously, there's something different happening there, but there's a possibility it might be something that happens to all heartstone that's just happening faster there for whatever reason.<br /><br />My curiosity comes from the fact that the world isn't inundated with heartstone everywhere.  If it's truly indestructible (aside from the seals), then that means that whatever's destroying the seals has to go around in some age and remove some cuendillar so that it doesn't build up over the Wheel's turnings.


created: 2008-03-03 09:21:54
subject: <b>A couple of comments:</b>
body:
<b>The traditional understanding of heartstone--that it's unbreakable--would mean that cuendillar is infinitely strong. How, then, can it get stronger?</b><br /><br />&quot;Unbreakable&quot; doesn't necessarily mean &quot;infinitely strong&quot;, it can (and likely does) just mean &quot;unbreakable by any means currently known&quot;.<br /><br />If scientists in the AoL tried everything they could think of to break it, and they couldn't, it would makes sense they would deem it &quot;unbreakable&quot;.<br /><br />As for the OP making it stronger ... I suspect scientists in the AoL made that determination based on molecular analysis.  That is, the studied cuendillar at the molecular level both before and after the OP was channeled into it, and were able to determine that the molecular structure was actually &quot;stronger&quot; after the OP was channeled into it.  The point being ... scientists wouldn't necessarily have to be able to break cuendillar to make that determination.<br /><br />Anyway ... I like the idea that cuendillar decays.  Normally, it must be a VERY slow process (say it normally takes 30~50 thousand years).  But, I think it's plausible that, in the case of the Seals, the Dark One has been able to speed the process up (by a factor of 10, say).<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Rise and fall, turn the Wheel,<br />'cause all life is<br />Is really just a circle.&quot;<br /><br />-BHT&amp;tM</font><p></p>


created: 2008-03-04 01:37:39
subject: <b>I hate to throw in chem...</b>
body:
buts its already been done so here it goes...<br />First some observations:<br />C. is not lying around everywhere. Anyone ever had the food chain explained to them back in 5th grade and wonder why decomposers mattered untill your teacher said something to the effect of our world being covered by dead carcasses without them? Well, our world doesn't have the advantage of being infinate. Because the wheel goes on forever, it also came on forever. Which means without some way to destroy it.<br />Now if we assume that the decay of the C. under normal circumstances follows the typical half-life decay (t1/2=ln2/lambda{decay constant} ), that explaines the slowly decaying C. If, however, we assume that the decay caused by the DO is different, the equation would be t1/2=ln2/ (lambda sub1+lambda sub2), where lambda sub1 is the natural decay rate, and lambda sub2 is the decay rate by another process(true power). Each of the seals decays at a different rate, which would be effected by the concentration of the DO's power, which would diffuse off of him, and therefore the seals closer to him would be effected at a higher rate, as if it were a catylist. We would assume that this rate would be exponentially higher as we got closer to the DO's prison, thus accounting for the different rates of decay between C., close seals,and farther seals: t1/2=ln2/ (lambda sub1+[lambda sub2]^1) for a really far away, t1/2=ln2/ (lambda sub1+[lambda sub2]^2) for closer, and t1/2=ln2/ (lambda sub1+[lambda sub2]^3) for the closest.<br /><br />I love AP Chem <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />In english, yes, I agree with this theory.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Most Magnificent Master of Metaphors<br />&quot;Take life by the horns. Then when its thrashing around--castrate it!&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2008-03-05 06:53:40
subject: <b>Maybe...</b>
body:
I voted yes, it seems reasonable that it might actually decay.. and that somehow the Dark One twisting reality speeds up the decaying process.<br /><br />But it could also be just the Dark One twisting reality so that what cannot be (Heartsone breaking) actually happens.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">..guide a truth, prevail and ride</font><p></p>


created: 2008-03-05 12:21:30
subject: <b>the seals aren't the only one power things that are decaying</b>
body:
The wards in Tar Valon that keep out rats are weakening.<br /><br />The Keepings on meats and grains the sisters use are weakening.<br /><br />The boundaries between the mirror worlds are weakening, or something to that effect because of the dead walking characters have seen.<br /><br />The seals themselves are also weakening.<br /><br />The dark one is acting on the world, and it just makes sense he is also acting on the seals.  Are the seals weakening to his expanding power, or is his power expanding because the seals are weakening?  Which came first, the chicken or the egg?


created: 2008-03-05 13:20:56
subject: <b>Waxer</b>
body:
As I remember it from fifty five years ago in school, diamonds are pure carbon formed under high pressure and heat.  That being so they cannot decay into graphite. With a chemical reaction they might dissolve.  Am not sure of that.


created: 2008-03-07 00:49:49
subject: <b>Re: Waxer</b>
body:
Diamond and graphite are both forms of pure elemental carbon.  Diamond has the strongest crystal structure possible, but it's a <i>very</i> slightly higher-energy state than graphite, and over tens of thousands of years diamond will slowly turn into graphite.


created: 2008-03-07 14:43:19
subject: <b>hmm... propably no</b>
body:
I have to disagree with your theory<br /><br />As already stated there might exist enormous amounts of cuendillar here and there. Taking in consideration the Breaking it is likely that large amount can be found deep inside the earth or anywhere else. It is even possible that you can find cuendillar in farms without the peasants knowing what it is, e.g. why grandpa's old vase never seems to break.<br /><br />Concerning why they didn't make more cuendillar in the AoL it seems likely that they just saw it as inconvenient. One factor to consider is the nature of cuendillar, something that is indestructible is awfully hard to get rid off, just like nuclear waste but less harmful. Another point is simply why bother? Making everyday stuff from cuendillar seems like a great waste of time and energy. Of course most cuendillar  now found is seen as art and the AoL seems like a time obsessed with beauty a.k.a. art, not everyday stuff like forks. Still it seems to require some skill to make cuendillar, perhaps that skill was only used for stuff that really needed to be made from cuendillar.<br /><br />Sorry for going on rambling, it's my first post here, regarding the seals weakening I believe that has more to do with there connection with the Dark One rather than anything else.<br /><br />To be honset I somewhat doubt that RJ actually would have made a material that is completely indestructible for 3000 years and the breaks in a couple of months, but you can never know for sure with him.


created: 2008-03-21 14:28:14
subject: <b>comment on Carbon and Graphite</b>
body:
Diamond has a Gibbs free energy of 672.9 Kj PER MOLE while graphite has a Gibbs free energy of 2.84 Kj per mole.  I wouldn't call that small really *shrug* the energy difference has nothing to do with the amount of time it takes it to decay.  Some of the largest energy differences don't happen on a time scale that we can witness.  For example the energy released by burning oil is atrociously high.  But oil going to Carbon dioxide and water does not take place on a time scale we have any chance of measuring.<br /><br />Thermodynamics and Kinetics are completely unrelated.<br /><br />(I love teaching Chemistry <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />.<br /><br />Oh and good theory and I agree with it.


created: 2008-03-25 20:15:23
subject: <b>Gibbs free energy</b>
body:
Thanks for the correction.  I'm a physicist, not a chemist, and the effect that I had in mind but was incorrectly imprecise with is that the classical energy level required to break diamond bonds is high enough (and the graphite energy level not lower enough) that the half-life of diamond is so long that it's imperceptible to humans unaided.<br /><br />Anyway, I've gone far enough afield from my original suggestion... just that cuendillar may in fact naturally wear down, just too slow for even Aes Sedai to notice. ;-)


created: 2008-05-28 01:54:37
subject: <b>hmm</b>
body:
I was going to say why dont we see C swords and armor...there must be a reason why they didnt make them and why they chose to &quot;align the matrix&quot; I think thats what the tellent is called for making metals stronger...I believe that there is a large flaw with Cuendillar, however its properties of getting stronger from use of the one power on them make them a good choice for making them seals...however everyone underestimates the DO and he can somehow corrupt it with own dark true power deal.<br /><br />I would say its fairly easy to do it, look at the stone of tear...so there must be a flaw in it so it was not used in everything...but they chose to use it in the seals because channeling at them makes them stronger...maybe they knew the DO could weaken the seals so if you channeld into the seals you could make them stronger and last longer...when they get lost in history the DO can start to destroy the seals...


created: 2008-07-07 18:53:07
subject: <b>I like that it decays, but is it possible that...</b>
body:
C is at it's strongest right after it is made.  From that point on it begins to decay as your theory states, but it rebuilds strength from each blow, hammer, channel, or whatever directed at it?  C absorbs channeling and any blows/energy directed at it so maybe that is how it slows the decaying process.<br /><br />An Example would be lets say White Bridge.  Made of C, horses and carts are always passing over this bridge striking the surface and slowly rebuilding whatever decay it loses or slowing the decaying process.<br /><br />Some of the seals have probably been kept hidden untouched locked away where they would not be bounced, shifted, or even seen.  By doing this people have allowed the normal decaying process to continue and not to replenish the indestructability of the material by a few occasional blows.<br /><br />My guess is that there is a breaking point that the decaying material reaches and just crumbles, as explained in one of the responses or intial theory above.<br /><br />Anyway, it made sense last night as I was watching the Simpsons so you know my mind was firing on all cyclinders <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />.


created: 2008-03-21 04:49:34
subject: <b>I slight remark</b>
body:
I certainly agree with you that Rand never served the Shadow ... but I would rather atribute his certainty about it on the experience with the portal stone he and the resta had earlier. When Mat had his moment of revelation that he would never betray Rand (again) ... I guess he actually did it a couple of times in the possible lives he lived, while Rand saw that his choice was always to oppose the Dark One ... I think this is the reason why he was so sure he could never choose different ... Anyway, I agree with your inicial statement<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Keeper of the <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" />The Lady Of The <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" />s<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-green.gif" border="0" />  May the Force be with you  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/r2d2.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2008-03-23 12:15:55
subject: <b>I agree with you on this.</b>
body:
Good work.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> Warder to ViolentKai <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> FredWeasleys Asha'man <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> Screamingdefiances Asha'man <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />The Grave Is No Bar To My Call<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2008-03-23 18:05:24
subject: <b>Sorry, I disagree</b>
body:
Rand is basing his belief on the experiences of the &quot;lives&quot; he could have led in the Worlds of If. That is, like Mat and Perrin, and others like Ingtar, he experienced many possible lives when he tried to use the Portal Stone to transfer them to Falme. In all those lives he did not bend knee to the Dark One. All those lives relate to his current incarnation.<br /><br />This is not to say he (the soul) did not do so in the past, and will not in the future. The Wheel Weaves as the Wheel Wills.


created: 2008-03-25 17:36:56
subject: <b>Yeah, I'm with Mickey</b>
body:
I always assumed Rand's assertion to be regarding the portal stone.  He doesn't know what he did in previous lives.  I'm not necessarily saying he DID serve the DO in ages past, but it is possible.  IshAmael was a great philosopher, and if we assume he was right about the struggle going on since Creation, it is just as likely that he is right about the Dragon serving the Shadow, unless we believe he had reason to lie about it, which we don't; he never told Rand that specifically, he told it to a fellow servant of Shai'tan.


created: 2008-03-25 22:10:13
subject: <b>But..</b>
body:
but... you're overlooking one thing:<br /><br />&quot;I will never serve you, Father of Lies. In a thousand lives I never have. I know that. I&#8217;m sure of it.&#8221; (TGH 666)&quot;<br /><br />that came from page 666, so it must be a lie!!!!<br /><br />actually, thats the only thing i could find wrong with this theory, and thats just me making things up. I agree completely.<br />


created: 2008-03-26 07:09:28
subject: <b>I agree</b>
body:
Nittle, I'm quite certain that Ishamael would lie to anybody, even if that person also followed the Dark One. In fact taking the forsakens relations to each other I think he would be especially keen to lie to anybody he saw as a threat. <br /><br />If I remember correctly it is stated somewhere that Ishamael would lie to anybody if he had an inch or a second to gain on it, and hasn&#180;t Jordan said at somepoint that trusting Ishy would be extremly foolish


created: 2008-03-28 19:45:00
subject: <b>But he doesn't lie exclusively--</b>
body:
How many times did he tell characters things that were later found to be true?  I know he may well have had reason to lie even to Sammael about something seemingly useless to Sammael.  But we don't have any clues about that, so at there is no conclusion as to whether Ishy was right about the eternal struggle.  Again, all I'm saying is that we can't know for sure whether the Dragon ever served the Shadow.


created: 2008-03-29 15:37:28
subject: <b>Just a quote from an RJ interview</b>
body:
&quot;Do you believe Ishamael?&quot;<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Am I evil? Yes I am!!!</font><p></p>


created: 2008-04-05 23:24:53
subject: <b>I agree: Lews Therin never served the shadow.</b>
body:
I also agree that Rand's saying he is sure of it means Rand retains some of the memories of all Lews Therin's other lives.<br /><br />I love how there is so much we have to read and find out, though -- how so much stuff is hinted at and foreshadowed, but not spelled out.  It makes things like this theory board and black board possible!


created: 2008-04-18 02:41:28
subject: <b>yes!</b>
body:
I agrea.<br /><br />The best lie is one thats very close to the truth, and if you tell the truth a few times, because you know they will  find out what the truth actually is, it gets you some credit to stock up on the one thing you really want. Rand serving the shadow, everything els is trash in comparison...because of that he will tell the truth so you will believe the lie that he has served the shadow before.


created: 2008-05-08 18:34:48
subject: <b>Shadow Dragon?</b>
body:
I don't belive the Dragon has ever served the Shadow, my guess is that if this ever happens the Dark One will &quot;finaly&quot; win his war with the Creator.<br /><br />This kinda reminds me of Torak's and Zandramas behavior in the Belgaraid and the Malloreon. In these books the are the chosen Surrogates of the Dark Phrophecy/Destiny (Evil). The main theme in these books are Good and Evil Phrophecoes war against one another, and due to their power they can't meet directly, or all that they contend over will be destroyed (All Creation). Now the phrophecies has aggred to certain rules, but their surrogates, particulary the Evil ones constantly tries to &quot;cheat&quot; in this game of the destenies, useally with severe reprecussions.<br /><br />Thus Ishy and  the DO tries to &quot;win&quot; by default by turning the Dragon, but due to the natrue of the Dark One's and Creator's &quot;game&quot; it's not really possible. One hallmark of Evil is the refusal to abide by any sort of restriction on behavior, it wants what it wants and damned if anyone shall prevent them from having it.


created: 2008-09-16 13:15:30
subject: <b>I Agree and...</b>
body:
..I just finished listen to TGH audio book before I read this and something else occurred to me. It made me wonder if Ishmael is either a former champion on the light or possibly the &quot;first Dragon&quot; turned to the shadow turned shadow champion or something similar along the lines.<br /><br />That would of course mean that if a Light champion turned evil then he would stay evil in later turnings of the wheel. That in its own would mean Rand/LTT never could have turned before as he would be on the shadows side, not the lights.


created: 2008-04-07 09:01:36
subject: <b>Makes some sense</b>
body:
Egwene's Dream seems pretty clear. One should keep in mind, though, that there are likely some Accepted and AS not bound by the three Oaths among the Rebels, who all could use the OP as a weapon anyway if they are leashed.<br /><br />RJ reputedly said AS damane fighting, that &quot;it is theoretically possible, basically by forcing the Aes Sedai to think that she does not use the OP as weapon. It is though very hard to achieve. In the book next after CoS, this might become a factor.&quot;<br /><br />But also:<br />&quot;They [the AS] can't us the One Power as a weapon, not in any conventional sense. This presents some problems for the Seanchan, but then, damane are used for more than just weapons. And from the Seanchan point of view, at worst, an Aes Sedai who has been collared is one less marath'damane running around loose and doing the horrible things that their history tells them such women inevitably do. Remember, Seanchan history records a time under Aes Sedai rule, when no one could go to sleep at night with the certainty they would wake in the morning and Aes Sedai took whatever they wanted and killed anyone who crossed or opposed them. To the Seanchan, just removing these horrors from the board is a win.&quot;<br /><br />Thus, RJ apparently didn't rule it out completely. I like your idea that the battle in KoD might give the Seanchan the inspiration to try pressing the AS damane harder by directly threatening their lives. We will see.


created: 2008-04-07 10:34:18
subject: <b>I don't know ...</b>
body:
What you're suggesting is fundamentally no different than if, say, in the incident you cited re Teslyn &amp; Joline, once they felt threatened by the Seanchan army, they turned around and shot fireballs at Olver.<br /><br />In other words, you're suggesting that when the Aes Sedai are threatened on one front, it will enable them to use the OP as a weapon on a (perhaps) unthreatening 2nd front.<br /><br />Since the interpretation of the Oaths are a strictly personal thing, perhaps <i>some</i> AS could convince themselves that they weren't violating the Oath by doing what you suggest.  But, I highly doubt all, or even most, of them could.  They would still see it as violating the spirit of the Oath, I think, which is (essentially) not to use the OP as a weapon against someone unless THAT SOMEONE is threatening you.<br /><br />I know that's how I would interpret it.<br /><br />But ... I agree with you that Egwene's dream suggests that AS damane will attack the WT.  And, I don't really have any other plausible theory to substitute for yours.  So, it's quite possible that you're right.  But, if it turns out you are, it will not sit well with me, because as I see it, the AS would still be violating the spirit of the Oath.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Rise and fall, turn the Wheel,<br />'cause all life is<br />Is really just a circle.&quot;<br /><br />-BHT&amp;tM</font><p></p>


created: 2008-04-07 11:13:00
subject: <b>I voted yes</b>
body:
I like the idea and using threats or actual violence may be a solution to the aes sedai damane problem<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;I look pretty young, but I'm just back dated&quot; The Who</font><p><a href="http://www.myspace.com/jefflewisband" target="_blank">My New Favourite Music Person</a></p><p></p>


created: 2008-04-07 16:22:18
subject: <b>Bob:</b>
body:
The Aes Sedai violate the spirit of the Oath against lying all the time, even the best of them.<br /><br />The threat from the sul'dam would be direct, immediate and very personal, quite different to your suggestion of Joline feeling in danger from the Seanchan attacking Olver. Because the sul'dam would be telling these damane that they must attack or be mutilated.<br /><br />Etzel: Well using the One Power as weapon when you are in danger did indeed crop up in the next book after COD and in front of Seanchan soldiers too. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />The AS among the rebels who aren't bound by the Oaths would not constitute a long line of ring-wearing damane. That's why I suggest that there will be a re-think among the Seanchan after Joline's little display. The Law of Unintended Consequences, if you like.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> Linda Sedai <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Proud member of the Embroiderer's Guild of the White Tower<br /><br /><b><font color="red">FAQ admin</font></b> </font>'cos the FAQ is where it's at.<br /><br /><b>Currently working on:</b> my 70th FAQ<p><a href="http://13depository.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">The thirteenth depository : A Wheel of Time blog</a></p><p></p>


created: 2008-04-07 16:35:49
subject: <b>Linda ...</b>
body:
<b>The Aes Sedai violate the spirit of the Oath against lying all the time, even the best of them.</b><br /><br />Because they have a personal desire (uninfluenced by outside forces) to do so, and even then, they only mislead, they don't lie.<br /><br />In your case, the AS damane would have no personal desire to attack the White Tower (presumably), they'd only have a personal desire not to be mutilated.<br /><br />If you threaten an AS with mutilation/death to get her to lie, I feel quite certain it wouldn't work.  Therefore, it shouldn't work with convincing her to violate one of the other oaths, either.<br /><br /><b>The threat from the sul'dam would be direct, immediate and very personal, quite different to your suggestion of Joline feeling in danger from the Seanchan attacking Olver. Because the sul'dam would be telling these damane that they must attack or be mutilated.</b><br /><br />The threat from the sul'dam would certainly enable them to use the OP as a weapon against the sul'dam, if they could.  But it should not enable them to use the OP as a weapon against a 3rd party, who is not threatening them.  That was my point.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Rise and fall, turn the Wheel,<br />'cause all life is<br />Is really just a circle.&quot;<br /><br />-BHT&amp;tM</font><p></p>


created: 2008-04-07 16:40:21
subject: <b>hmmm....my main reaction: not particularly relevant</b>
body:
My first thoughts are that there just aren't that many AS damane out there - especially relative to the total number of damane. So, why would they need AS to attack the WT when they have numerous damane already? Sure, I can see them interrogating the AS for info on the WT and they'll probably have a few that are sufficently cowed to act as guides and general information sources during and following the battle, but I think that even if they could find ways to make them feel threatened enough to use the OP, the Seanchan are just better off using the other damane for the fighting.<br /><br />Anyway, the much simpler scenario is that as soon as the Seanchan attack the WT, the WT will counterattack using the OP. That alone would be enough for the AS to be able to use the OP as a weapon.<br /><br />I've always seen Egwene's dreams as metaphorical anyway - it's really not all that important that her dream includes AS fighting - just that it's a dream that indicates the Seanchan will attack.<br /><br /><br />Anyway, it's good to see some activity around here.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Need a book to read - check out my blog for ideas.</font><p><a href="http://nethspace.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">Neth Space</a></p><p></p>


created: 2008-04-07 17:34:39
subject: <b>Bob's Right</b>
body:
The oath is to not use the Power as a weapon except in the last DEFENSE of the AS's life, warder's life, or other AS's life.  Assuming they are not morons, and that they don't manage to convince themselves the oath means something different, it will be impossible for them to use the Power as a weapon against one party while under duress from another.  I think what was mentioned about front ranks will do the trick quite nicely, though.  As long as they are in personal danger, it's no holds barred.  Actually, come to think of it, if ONE AS damane was in personal danger from the enemies of the Seanchan, the rest could all be useful from the safety of the rear.  Or if a significant number of those collared are BA, the problem disappears completely for them.  Actually, there are several possible explanations for this issue.


created: 2008-04-07 18:13:15
subject: <b>Some replies</b>
body:
<br />Bob<br /><br />Seeing as the Aes Sedai damane haven&#8217;t been directly and convincingly threatened with personal danger yet, whether death or mutilation, so we can&#8217;t say whether they can use the OP as a weapon against a third party. The a&#8217;dam prevents them from attacking the sul&#8217;dam, therefore the only way out for them would be to obey the Seanchan. I think a fair percentage would take this way.<br /><br />Joline hardly waited until the last defense of her life before attacking the rabble in Altara. No arrows, or men had even got near her.<br /><br />Ken:<br /><br />The dream shows that a lot of serpent ring-wearing damane will be collared. We haven&#8217;t seen that yet. The Seanchan still think <i>all</i> Aes Sedai should be collared. The rebels would be a large pool of potential damane. Carlinya will wear the Seanchan da&#8217;covale tattoo one day according to one of Min&#8217;s viewings. Therefore she comes into contact with them and is perhaps stilled or regarded as criminal or dishonoured.<br /><br />Do the Seanchan <i>need</i> AS damane to attack the Tower? Not necessarily, but now that Joline has given the game away, they know how to do it. They would see it as poetic justice though, so they will want to get them to do it if they can.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> Linda Sedai <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Proud member of the Embroiderer's Guild of the White Tower<br /><br /><b><font color="red">FAQ admin</font></b> </font>'cos the FAQ is where it's at.<br /><br /><b>Currently working on:</b> my 70th FAQ<p><a href="http://13depository.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">The thirteenth depository : A Wheel of Time blog</a></p><p></p>


created: 2008-04-07 18:16:58
subject: <b>To nettles ...</b>
body:
Another thing to consider (which you've made me just think of) is, the Oath allows AS to use the OP to <i>defend</i> the life of another AS.  Whereas, what Linda is suggesting is that the sul'dam can coerce an oath-bound AS to use the OP to <i>take</i> the life of another AS.  <br /><br />I think an AS damane would see that as a violation of the Oath too, in addition to the 3rd pary issue I raised.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Rise and fall, turn the Wheel,<br />'cause all life is<br />Is really just a circle.&quot;<br /><br />-BHT&amp;tM</font><p></p>


created: 2008-04-07 18:30:51
subject: <b>Linda ...</b>
body:
<b>Seeing as the Aes Sedai damane haven&#8217;t been directly and convincingly threatened with personal danger yet, whether death or mutilation, so we can&#8217;t say whether they can use the OP as a weapon against a third party.</b> <br /><br />I agree - we can't say for sure.  We can only speculate based on other Oath-related limitations we've seen.<br /><br /><b>The a&#8217;dam prevents them from attacking the sul&#8217;dam, therefore the only way out for them would be to obey the Seanchan. I think a fair percentage would take this way.</b><br /><br />I think a fair percentage would take this way <i>if they could</i>, to avoid being killed or mutilated.  The question is, could they convince themselves that they weren't violating the Oath by doing so?<br /><br />As I see it, any of them with an ounce of scruples would be unable to do it.  In their hearts, they'd think they'd be violating the Oath, and therefore would be unable to do it.<br /><br />Also, there's the 2nd issue I mentioned to nettles above, to consider.  I think that would add to their inability to violate the Oath (more so than if the 3rd party were, say, just some random Taraboners).<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Rise and fall, turn the Wheel,<br />'cause all life is<br />Is really just a circle.&quot;<br /><br />-BHT&amp;tM</font><p></p>


created: 2008-04-08 10:57:15
subject: <b>Yes and No</b>
body:
I do agree with your main point... that what the Deathwatch guard observed with Joline and Teslyn will become more common knowledge among the Seanchean. This will probably become an important factor for the Seanchean in aMoL.<br /><br />However, I don't think that this is the way that they will raid the Tower. Remember, whatever plan the Seanchean have is already in action, without their knowledge of how the Oath works. That means they have some plan for what to do with the knowledge they already have. Egwene's Dreams aren't always that literal, so calling lightning against the Tower may or may not mean calling lightning. It could just mean using the Power against their fellow Aes Sedai (ie sheilding and immobilizing). Also, the Aes Sedai could be used to attack the fortifications of the Tower, also circumventing the Oath (so long as no one is on a wall when it's destroyed!).<br /><br />I'm of the opinion that the Seanchean will fly in an assembly line of sul'dam into the Tower, who will just start collaring every Aes Sedai in sight. Then use the collared Aes Sedai to quell any uprising as it starts, adding more captured Aes Sedai to their numbers, making them harder to stop, etc. Since the Tower Aes Sedai are fractured and not talking to eachother, there won't be enough warning to stop the Seanchean.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;The rich get richer till the poor get educated.&quot;<br />-Sage Francis</font><p></p>


created: 2008-04-08 17:17:14
subject: <b>Dreams aren't always literal</b>
body:
I understood this dream to mean that the WT would be attacked by women who could channel.  If I remember rightly, when E had this dream she still thought that most women who could channel were AS.  So, in her dream, if the WT were attacked by women who could channel, they must be AS and thus wearing the ring, so E would &quot;see&quot; the ring on them in her dream.<br /><br />This might not be right, but this is how I interpreted it.<br /><br />But Linda Sedai's idea does make sense, so I voted YES.


created: 2008-04-08 20:55:59
subject: <b>There's an easier way</b>
body:
Aes Sedai know how to link. They'll teach it the Seanchan.<br /><br />They link. Then, the Seanchan damane lead the circle and use it as a weapon.<br /><br />Simple.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Check out my WoT(ish) fanfic! Tentatively entitled, Sum of All Worlds, join Scimitar the Dreadlord as he begins an epic journey throughout the Worlds!<br /><br />http://www.worldofamadman.com/viewtopic.php?t=1023<br />Four of twelve updates finished.</font><p></p>


created: 2008-04-09 08:10:28
subject: <b>a problem with the attack</b>
body:
Can the seanchan actually attack the tower? As their forces currently are deployed they would have to cover huge amounts of enemy territory to strike at Tar Valon. Considering that most of that land is either held by Rand (Tear, Maiene, Illian, Cairhien and most likely Arad Doman) or his allies. Elayne holds Andor, Perrins is allied with Ghealdan and Mat just so happens to be in Murrandy, or very close. <br /><br />How on earth are the seanchan supposed to carry the huge numbers of soldiers and damane needed to take the White Tower without somebody noticing? I don't think Rand would be to happy to hear that they had attacked his allies so that way seems unlikely, especially since he has that huge aiel armyin arad doman and wants a peace.<br /><br />Of course they could try to attack from the northwest but that just might get them to close the that huge army of bordermen. They could perhaps get through the black hills somehow and strike from there but how are they to get there? and remeber that egwenes faction is camped outside Tar Valon with an army that propably is quite big and a skilled general in charge.<br /><br />To sum it up I think it's unlikely that the seanchan will be able to attack Tar Valon, I think the dream about the White Tower means something else, perhaps the seanchan will change the way Aes Sedai are seen and the Tower will be hard pressed to do something about it... Don't really know, I just think the attack seems odd.<br /><br />I used this map to check out possible attack ways http://www.wotmud.org/directory/maps/wheeloftimemap.jpg so I hope it is correct <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />


created: 2008-04-09 19:29:08
subject: <b>I might agree with Linda_...</b>
body:
Sedai if the Seanchean concept of honor and shame made it such that the suldame would commit suicide in the name of the Empire as a means of showing the damane that they meant business. It is possible that the fanaticism of the Seanchean will cause the AS to believe that they will be killed if they don't obey orders. Otherwise, I'm of the mind of whoever said that the AS will start attacking the physical Tower itself, not aiming for AS, until they do feel personally threatened.


created: 2008-04-10 22:32:52
subject: <b>a paratrooper attack on WT</b>
body:
To midnight, if you read KoD carefully, you can guess Seanchan will use tor'raken to send in troops to attack from the air, bypassing the walls, and the enemy territory on the ground.<br /><br />Personally, I doubt seanchan can collar a lot of rebel AS first, then attack the WT. That would truly destroy the WT beyond any repairing. They may get a few BA to do it.<br />


created: 2008-04-11 08:21:12
subject: <b>...</b>
body:
to red hand, I know the seanchan might use to'raken but how many soldiers and damane/sul'dam are they able to carry for one strike? Tar Valon should be heavily fortified, especially since they are at war, so it won't be easy to just sneak up on them.<br /><br />As for my concerns over how seanchan are supposed to get to the tower I can't believe that the rakens are able to fly that far without having to rest a couple of times. That would make it hard for them since they don't know the land, oh sure they have maps but that doesn't tell them were enemy forces are. A huge number of flying monster propably would be easily spotted and then the surprise is gone. <br /><br />An airstrike would certanly be effective but since they don't have any ground troops to act as reserves, an attack seems just a bit suicidal to me. The only thing they would get, if the seanchan win, is a big number of damane, propably large losses on both sides and a city that they wont be able to hold against the enemy army outside, egwenes.<br /><br />To sum it up I still can't see the point of the attack just to capture a large number of problem damanes, unless the whole point is to remove the Aes Sedai as a symbol. But still, why waste your elite on a suicidal mission?


created: 2008-04-13 19:51:00
subject: <b>I concur</b>
body:
Makes sense; good theory!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Niv-Mizzet, will you ever learn? You toast bread, NOT people! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shakefist.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2008-04-14 09:37:24
subject: <b>Okay</b>
body:
But it was a just a dream, unlike foretelling, it is something that <i>may</i> happen, not necessarily happens.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Well, any person that you fear<br />And anything that is severe<br />And any place you won&#180;t go near<br />You see they&#180;re nouns, you see they&#180;re nouns<br /><i>Carai an caldazar, bitch!</i><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2008-04-14 21:41:44
subject: <b>collar Therava, a small flow of spirit, and Bingo ...</b>
body:
To midnight,<br />If you reread KOD, Prologue, you can see that when High lady Suroth demand 90% of raken to scout for Ituralde, her order was accepted, &quot;as long as you do not require any to'raken&quot;. Basically, it implied all the to'raken have been assigned to a secret mission already, and even capturing Ituralde does not have a higher priority. Based the current flow of the book, this has to be the mission to attack the WT. In RJ's style, this is as much forshadowing as you are allowed to get.<br /><br />As to the ability of seanchan flyers, you can check out the scene when seanchan atacked the Fortress of the Light. From a battle point of view, Fortress of the Light is as well defended as Tar Valon. I am not sure the Tower guards are better trained than the WCs. The warders, yes, but I doubt the regular tower guards are as good or as experienced. <br /><br />As to AS damane with the three Oath, there would be a very complex twist that make it happens. Here it is:<br /><br />The seanchan, could, by luck, find and collar Therava. She had been careful, but her group is small, and not far away from seanchan forces yet. Then use the Oath Rod they find on Therava, they can unbind all the AS they have collared. Then the Three Oath be gone. <br /><br />It is not likely, as the flow in KOD all but said Shaido has no more appearance in the series, until maybe the Fourth Age. And there is no certainty that an Oath is not Rod specific. But it is not improbably.


created: 2008-04-18 06:22:21
subject: <b>Insane AS?</b>
body:
Firstly:<br /><br />If hitting someone close to the point of death with a club of air does not count as the use of a weapon then surely knocking over a few houses doesn't. Also one of the most useful things they could do would be to shield other AS. The seanchan value damane too highly to just kill them off so shielding them could be very useful.<br /><br />Secondly:<br /><br />Well as stated by comments earlier the three oaths dtrength stongly depend on how you view them. Now AS are very strong willed etc etc but most people have a breaking point. A point where they can take no more pain. Now obviously this does not affect the three oaths but a constant barrage of pain + torture is, as i am sure you will agree, enough to addle your thoughts. Using 1984 as an example, O'brien breaks down winston and rebuilds his consciousness. The Sul'dam seem to be in a perfect situation for this as they can inflict pain to whatever degree they want on the damane easily. So essentially the suldam could turn the captured AS a bit crazy forcibly changing their views.


created: 2008-04-20 09:34:22
subject: <b>Nah.</b>
body:
Egwene's dreams are not always literal. Although she is a Dreamer, the images she will produce will be things her own mind can interpret. I just can't see it.


created: 2008-04-21 22:22:13
subject: <b>Why not the litteral meaning?</b>
body:
I mean, Egy saw women wearing the serpent ring, channeling at the White Tower, so Why not using AS damane to destroy the fortification around the WT ?<br /><br />They can be quite effective using the OP to destroye phisical thing, and to throw lighting at the WT literally.


created: 2008-04-16 08:30:39
subject: <b>Don't think so</b>
body:
In his various statements on this topic, RJ said that ta'veren and Heroes are corrective mechanisms of the Wheel.  <br /><br />He further stated:<br />&quot;The Wheel creates ta&#8217;veren at need, making someone who is already alive one.  You aren&#8217;t born ta&#8217;veren.  Can you imagine being around a ta&#8217;veren who is teething?    It would be possible for a Darkfriend or Forsaken to be made ta&#8217;veren, but it seems unlikely.  Ta&#8217;veren are part of the Wheel&#8217;s self-correcting mechanism.  When the Pattern seems to be drifting too quickly, and especially if it is in the wrong direction, one or more ta&#8217;veren are created.&quot; <br /><br />If the Wheel creates ta'veren, it makes sense that it also &quot;creates&quot; the Heroes by binding them to it, if there is need for that. <br /><br />I would say the Heroes probably simply have the appearance of their last incarnation in TAR or if they are called by the Horn.


created: 2008-04-17 13:52:47
subject: <b>Doesn't Sound Correct</b>
body:
I believe you started with the wrong premise. Hero's are bound to the wheel not the Horn. The Horn only allows the sounder to call them from TAR. Hero's may not always be Ta'veren. I don't think there is enough information to make that determination.<br /><br />It is my belief Hero's reside in TAR after death as a sort of reward by the Wheel.


created: 2008-04-17 16:54:33
subject: <b>I like it.</b>
body:
Maybe not exactly as you presented it, but a good idea. Tying together dreams and TAR. I think that you may be on the right track, but that the wheel has a little more influence than you have said.<br /><br /><br />Maybe the wheel picks from people's dream-heroes?<br /><br /><br />Overall: <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/thumbsup.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;<i>And it breaks my heart to look around, and see the unimpressed, who can't believe the emperor is dressed.</i>&quot;~Fastball<br /><br /><b><font color="#FF0000">1</font></b></font>-7-1<br /><br /><i>W!</i><br /><p></p>


created: 2008-04-18 06:25:19
subject: <b>sceptical</b>
body:
The basic idea seems good there is just 1 problem with it which i feel rips it all apart. That would mean that if someone somewhere did all these epic deeds when no one heard of them as they did it in a rather isolated area then they would not be bound to the horn. This doesn't seem to work.


created: 2008-04-18 18:10:15
subject: <b>No</b>
body:
If that was the case then Tyrants would be bound also. I&#8217;m sure people Dream of those that they are afraid of as much as those they admire.<br />


created: 2008-04-18 18:54:59
subject: <b>tyrants</b>
body:
I think the tyrants wouldnt be called by the horn. so that doesnt pose as big of a threat as it first seems to the arguement.  I love the idea.  I am all for it.  But i do think jordan didnt think too much into it.  I think it was supposed to be a valhalla parallel.  I am going to pretend he was thinking your way tho.  great idea.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Mjolner <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bobbafett.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br />Somewhere, something incredible <br />is waiting to be known. <br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2008-04-19 22:03:10
subject: <b>Gonna Have to Say No</b>
body:
Your idea is creative: Props for that! However, it doesn't fit with the whole premise for this particular world. There is too much chance for anarchy; faces to be distorted, or blurry, or half-human, overlarge shapes of heroes of legend to be formed. <br /><br />I like the idea, but have to give it a big thumbs down! Sorry.


created: 2008-04-21 23:50:43
subject: <b>I see one major problem</b>
body:
I see one major problem in this theory, and that is who becomes a hero. If all that it takes is to have many people dream about you to become a hero, then there would be a significantly greater number of heroes of the horn, at Falme, I believe that Mat was surprised by how few there were, only 100-150 if I remember correctly, I don't have the book with me right now. Also, it seems to me like all of the heroes are great warriors of some sort, no political figures. Some of the warriors may be political figures, but they all are great fighters. I feel that if it only took having a massive amount of people dreaming about you, there would be a few who could not fight, or the great rulers.<br /><br />My two cents.


created: 2008-04-22 16:14:36
subject: <b>Trap</b>
body:
There is a possibility that the horn Binds all of those who had used it. Or all of heroes of horn are at least once found and used the horn. If I am correct there will be new hero who will be known as Prince of Ravens.


created: 2008-04-23 14:16:31
subject: <b>Occam's Razor</b>
body:
When I first read your theory, I grasped it even before you described the mechanism.  It's a great idea and one that could really work.<br /><br />I was all ready to vote for it until I was reminded that Heroes are one of the Wheel's corrective mechanisms.  An even simpler explanation is that the Wheel just &quot;<i>creates</i>&quot; Heroes as needed.  Because it is the Wheel that weaves them into the pattern, there is no need to explain <b>HOW</b> Heroes are created, only <b>WHY</b>.<br /><br />I think your theory <b>could</b> work in Randland, but I think RJ conceived of this as just something the wheel &quot;does&quot; to balance the pattern.


created: 2008-04-23 15:46:54
subject: <b>tyrants</b>
body:
Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't one of the worries in TGH that if a Darkfriend or Forsaken blew the horn something akin to Heroes of the Dark would be summoned? Wouldn't it then make it possible for a tyrant to be called? It has been quite a while since I have read the series, but I seem to remember that.<br /><br />I think you have an interesting theory, and I like the idea of the collective consciousness of the living playing a role in things. But I think we have to give more credit to the wheel than that of dreams. Can I give a half vote?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">The Upper Peninsula...the Two Rivers of this world... <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2008-04-27 09:35:10
subject: <b>I dunno</b>
body:
What about the masses that dream of villains? If all of Randland dream of some of the big tyrants, what happens to them? Dreaming of them just does not seem a feasible method of bounding heroes to the horn.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rand.gif" border="0" /> Dragonsworn314 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rand.gif" border="0" /><br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> Sworn to the legion <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /><br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /> Shen An Calhar kicks serious booty<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2008-04-30 17:14:36
subject: <b>Interesting, but I disagree.</b>
body:
I don't think there is any way anyone (mortal or Forsaken) could handle more Power than Rand did at the cleansing. And, I think that if Rand used Callandor, he would die trying long before reaching Choeden Kal levels.<br /><br /><br />I think that there might be something special with Callandor, something vital, but that's not it.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;<i>And it breaks my heart to look around, and see the unimpressed, who can't believe the emperor is dressed.</i>&quot;~Fastball<br /><br /><b><font color="#FF0000">1</font></b></font>-7-1<br /><br /><i>W!</i><br /><p></p>


created: 2008-04-30 18:09:25
subject: <b>I like it,</b>
body:
I don't agree, but it's a good idea.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Poets have been mysteriously silent on the subject of cheese.&quot;     -G. K. Chesterton<br /> <br />My naked walrus is on fire. <img src="images/personalsmilies/41668.gif" /><br /><br />TEVT: We are back in business! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/w00t.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2008-04-30 21:19:19
subject: <b>I hear ya</b>
body:
I just find it interesting that LTT could make a mtn range by burning himself out while with Callandor, it says one might be able to level an entire city.  A mtn range is larger then a city and add callandor on top of that much power.


created: 2008-04-30 21:40:50
subject: <b>I like it</b>
body:
I like it. It could happen but who knows. How much of the power might he be able to draw in a moment of final desparation, using a virtualy limitless Sa' angreal? More then the Chodan' kal? Hard to say. I definately think it has potential though.


created: 2008-05-01 09:11:13
subject: <b>pyroman ---</b>
body:
Lews Therin raised a mountain, not a mountain range. He raised Dragonmount, not (as i'm assuming you're referring to) Kinslayer's Dagger. ... <br /><br />The Spine of the World, and hence KD, were created during the Breaking, after LTT killed himself.<br /><br />I would assume KD gets its name from the fact that it points, roughly, to Dragonmount, the spot where LTT died<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">___________________________<br />i'm a WoThead <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br />___________________________<br />When all else fails, laugh.<br />___________________________<br /><br /><i>Tai'Shar Charleston, S.C.!</i></font><p></p>


created: 2008-05-01 09:13:35
subject: <b>i realized i left my theory comments out ...</b>
body:
I like the theory, but agree with the folks who say that Callandor, while perhaps vital to the LB, will not be used in the Sealing, but rather by Narishma, as prophecy seems to indicate he will.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">___________________________<br />i'm a WoThead <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br />___________________________<br />When all else fails, laugh.<br />___________________________<br /><br /><i>Tai'Shar Charleston, S.C.!</i></font><p></p>


created: 2008-05-01 09:46:34
subject: <b>no</b>
body:
I agree with Gher that if Rand used Callandor, he would die trying long before reaching Choeden Kal levels.<br /><br />And if he doesn't die, Callandor might just break like the Choedan Kal ter'angreal did.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">..guide a truth, prevail and ride</font><p></p>


created: 2008-05-08 00:37:24
subject: <b>Last Battle</b>
body:
This theory, while thoughtful, just can't happen. Are we forgetting how the Bore was opened in the first place? Well... know one on the good side knows how. No hero was there when it was opened. There were 2 bad guys though. Lanfear &amp; Be'lal were the two that were doing the experimentation when the Bore was opened. So only those two know what it too to open and what it would take to close. One of them is no longer attached to the wheel (Be'lal) and the other wouldn't tell any of the good guys anyway. So who could possibley have the knowlege to close. <br /><br />As we learned through Mat, there are creatures that can pass knowlege to others, although for a price. So I ask, who is in a position to have the knowlege to close the Bore. There is only one.<br /><br />Moiraine<br /><br />If callandor is used or not, I don't know.


created: 2008-05-29 10:25:34
subject: <b>anyone think..</b>
body:
that callandor will be used in conjunction with the bracelets that allow 2 women to control a male channeler?


created: 2008-04-30 09:13:37
subject: <b>question</b>
body:
how did perrin become to be &quot;halfway inbetween&quot; in the first place, if it was willing, we all know that at first perrin was against it, but he surrendered to it.


created: 2008-04-30 21:16:08
subject: <b>&quot;stand halfway between.&quot;</b>
body:
Perrin was against it, thats why he was halfway, being able to talk to wolves in the first place brought him half way there in the first place, if he never listen to the wolves he would be &quot;planted firmly in this world&quot;   Egwene however was firmly planted in the human world with her dreams of becoming Aes Sedai.<br /><br />He wouldnt have mentioned her if she wasnt able to hear the wolves, its just like he said, she was firmly planted in the human world.  Perrin didnt have a dream to be Aes Sedai, oh maybe a blacksmith, but nothing that compares to the pee your pants excitement Egwene has


created: 2008-04-30 22:32:25
subject: <b>Too much out of too little</b>
body:
I don't think so. Rather, if anything, it referred to Egwene being a Dreamer.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Check out my WoT(ish) fanfic! Tentatively entitled, Sum of All Worlds, join Scimitar the Dreadlord as he begins an epic journey throughout the Worlds!<br /><br />http://www.worldofamadman.com/viewtopic.php?t=1023<br />Four of twelve updates finished.</font><p></p>


created: 2008-05-01 17:09:35
subject: <b>No, I don't think so</b>
body:
There is nothing in the quote that would support this theory; I don't remember anything from the books that would support it either.<br />In her visits to the Dream World there has never, as far as I recall, been any mention of Egwene being able to see the wolves. Hopper on the other hand could never see Birgitte either.<br />Perrin is in-between, which is why he can see both aspects of the Dream World, but that is as far as it goes.


created: 2008-05-20 05:23:52
subject: <b>Uh, actually, marekj...</b>
body:
<b>In her visits to the Dream World there has never, as far as I recall, been any mention of Egwene being able to see the wolves.</b><br /><br />How about the scene where Egwene opens a door to see Perrin laying next to a wolf? The wolf lunges for her, and Perrin yells &quot;Hopper, no!&quot;<br /><br />Also, I'm not sure whether or not it's from Egwene's PoV or Perrin's, but I also seem to recall a scene with wolves in the Luhhan home.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Of course you should fight fire with fire! You should fight EVERYTHING with fire!<br /><br />-Al'Gai, the Son of Battle<br />A.K.A. Anaro Ravenclaw,<br />Technomancer for the next Millenium <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/borg.gif" border="0" /><br />Revenant Bounty Hunter Extroidinaire <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2008-05-28 01:43:49
subject: <b>her being a dreamer...</b>
body:
<br />&quot;I don't think so. Rather, if anything, it referred to Egwene being a Dreamer.&quot;<br /><br />She had not had any dreams that were out of the ordinary yet.  Dreaming manifested itself in her much later in the series.


created: 2008-07-31 15:42:46
subject: <b>Agreed.</b>
body:
Egwene could have simply &quot;blocked&quot; her own Wolfsister potential -- i.e. been &quot;planted firmly in this world&quot;.<br /><br />Moiraine told Perrin that Dreamers often &quot;reported seeing wolves&quot; while in <i>Tel&#8217;aran&#8217;rhiod</i>, and even &quot;often spoke to them&quot; -- so obviously being Aes Sedai Dreamers doesn't preclude being a Wolfbrother/Wolfsister. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />If this is the case, that potential isn't <i>gone</i>, merely repressed -- which means she could still end up making use of it.  For example, (since it's clear she's not going to be content sitting on her duff in Tar Valon during <i>Tarmon Gai'don</i>) she could be out fighting in a forest, get captured, and call out for lupine assistance instinctively as a last-ditch desperation move (similar to how Nynaeve broke through her own block).<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">When I disagree with a rational man, I let reality be our final arbiter; if I am right, he will learn; if I am wrong, I will; one of us will win, but both will profit. - Ayn Rand</font><p></p>


created: 2009-01-05 19:41:53
subject: <b>Interesting</b>
body:
Very interesting though. I don&#180;t really think that Egwene could have become a Wolf-sister. The point stating that she is firmly planted in this world I think states it better then anything.


created: 2008-05-05 19:19:33
subject: <b>seriously</b>
body:
Did you just make up these formulas from your head?  Or did I miss the day they had algebra class at the white tower?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Mjolner <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bobbafett.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br />Somewhere, something incredible <br />is waiting to be known. <br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2008-05-05 23:21:21
subject: <b>I Voted Yes</b>
body:
But only because i stopped really reading about the second math equation in, and gave you the Yes for your efforts... Conclusion- nerds of all types read WOT.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;We'll dance all night while the moon runs free,<br />and dandle the lasses upon our knee,<br />and then you'll ride along with me,<br />to dance with Jak o' the Shadows.&quot;<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2008-05-06 00:21:21
subject: <b>Yes! Well thought out!</b>
body:
I like it! Not sure everything works exactly like you say, but it could very well be that way. I wonder if huge circles really get a bonus for each person added? Couldn't it rather be like as if the &quot;penalty&quot; shrinks and shrinks, but never reaches zero?


created: 2008-05-07 23:41:02
subject: <b>Not entirely sure about the maths...</b>
body:
First of all, I like the idea of scaling you introduced<br /><br />One question I have is that whether the same conclusions will be reached if the values change, or whether those values are correct (and if so, how did you come up with them?)<br /><br />I voted yes because your ideas make sense though.<br /><br />And I like the idea of maths being used to work problems out<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Photons have mass?!?<br /><br />I didn't even know they were Catholic...</font><p></p>


created: 2008-05-08 17:11:56
subject: <b>No re circles, probably yes re angreal</b>
body:
I find maths confusing and hate doing my accounts because I never seem able to earn enough money to keep me in the style and comfort I deserve and wish to get accustomed to.<br /><br />Seriously speaking, I can't understand your Maths. I always have great admiration for those other-worlders who are able to make figures dance through hoops for them.<br /><br />However, from a purely practical/logical point of view, I don't buy into the idea that the bigger a circle the more efficient it gets.<br /><br />The circles that we have seen in WOT, when planned in advance (eg the one that changed the weather) always strive to have the strongest channelers present. This would imply that for the purposes of the cirle a strong channeler would have more intrinsic value than a weak channeler.<br /><br />It is also very clearly stated that they have an additive, but not a summative effect; Together, two channelers will be able to channel more of the One Power than either of them alone, but never as much as the sum of what they could achieve channeling seperately.<br /><br />Under these conditions, the raw amount of One Power will always increase, but the wastage will also increase, however the amount channeled by each channeler will still remain the max possible for that channeler. <br /><br />If the circle's efficiency increased it would mean that each channeler was able to channel more and there is no evidence for that. If that were the case, then the largest circle would presumably be able to channel at almost max capacity.<br /><br />With regard to the angreal, they have been described as buffers which allow the channeler to safely channel more unaided than would be possible without. If used correctly they are by definition safe. They do however work in a proportional manner and as such the stronger you are the more you will be able to squeeze out of them.<br /><br />Callandor is unsafe because it doesn't have that buffer.<br /><br />When Rand was battling Asmo, he reached for his little fat man angreal because that would be added to what was already being channeled through the sa'angreal he was fighting Asmo for. It was only a small amount extra, but sufficient to tip the balance of the struggle and the rest as they say is history and ultimately lead to the greatest question ever asked: &quot;Who killed Asmo?&quot;<br /><br />So, No to the circle, but yes to the angreal.<br /><br />Either way, well done for putting forward an interesting, albeit mathematically incomprehensible, theory.


created: 2008-05-11 02:39:01
subject: <b>math?</b>
body:
DUDE... your math is wrong.<br />and is not consissstent with the concept in witch you are comunicating. you dont need algebra to explain angreals.<br />some angreals are stronger than others and your y factor varries.And i am only talking about only those that ramain in the cateagory of angreal and not Sa'angreal.Sa' angreal vary as well and the y factor is not teh same in any two angreals, in fact, the only constant you have to work with here is the stranth of the user and even that may varry if they are tired or in a cirtain emotional state.


created: 2008-05-12 16:41:29
subject: <b>Woah...</b>
body:
I don't have the time right now to check your math, but it's amazingly awesome that you came up with it.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Masria Sedai of the Brown Ajah<br />The Zaftig Cat Girl<br /><br />http://serpentinepoet.proboards107.com/index.cgi</font><p></p>


created: 2008-05-18 05:19:21
subject: <b>No</b>
body:
Your part about the angreal is wrong. There is no maximum factor when it comes to angreal, all angreal an sa'angreal are as mentioned buffered against taking in too much of the Power, except Callandor. Also, 50% would be way to little, since Aviendha can channel twice as much with a small angreal. With an average, Elayne can channel twice as much as Nynaeve, and Nyn would do even better (so the proportion part is right, anyway). That's from TPoD, when they're using the bowl.<br /><br />


created: 2008-05-24 11:14:58
subject: <b>Linking</b>
body:
The advantage of linking is the skill and precision that comes with it, not the strength, though it is increased.


created: 2008-06-03 15:11:18
subject: <b>hmmm. not sure about circles</b>
body:
I thought I read somewhere that a small circle can be more effective/efficient than a larger circle depending on the people in it.  It seems that in your calculations, more people = a better circle.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /> Survivor of Historical Inquizition ... barely <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Who can say if I've been changed for the better, but because I knew you I have been changed for good -- Wicked<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2008-09-02 17:08:03
subject: <b>Three things,</b>
body:
first the highest number you can have in any circle is 73 according to Jordan in an old Q&amp;A (it might be in the white book too I cant remember).<br /><br />Second, angreal and sa'angreal vary in potency. They allow the user to draw on more power safely then STOP them from being able to draw more even if they wanted to except Callandor).<br /><br />Finally, there is no basis whatsoever for a circle advantage theory. Jordan stated himself that there was a slight loss of power from each individual (while still adding strength to the leader), but a huge gain in refinement and control over threads of the OP via the use of circles. It is from that control that the leader of a circle can do more things.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Val Hala sucks, trust me I've been there. Noone bathes...&quot;<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2008-06-02 09:17:50
subject: <b>Not so much...</b>
body:
How would you factor in such things as Rand's reluctance to channel after the joining of balefire in aCoS and then the channeling sickness that came on after the Bowl of the Winds was utilized in aPoD. Rand feared seizing the power, given he didn't know how it would affect him, but would still need to assume the Void for maintaining that trick of not sweating. Characters make comments about Rand sweating from time to time, indicating that he still keeps up the trick at times, yet we do not hear of LTT's scrambling for tactics at all hours of the day.


created: 2008-06-02 16:44:20
subject: <b>Turtles all the way down</b>
body:
The problem with the analysis is not necessarily that it's wrong, it's that it just seems to move the debate one step down.  We know that Mat and Birgitte have other memories in their heads, and we know why -- in Mat's case because they were implanted, in Birgitte's case because they were residual from TAR.  We don't know why Rand has Lews Therin's voice in his head, with knowledge that only Lews Therin would have.  Your explanation could explain why Lews Therin appears in the form of a voice, but does not explain why he appears at all.  That, it seems, is the more pertinent question for readers (and Rand), and it seems like a theory about the mechanism doesn't get us there.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Ronde Macura: Drink this, fools. <br />Nynaeve: Ah, nice, delicious fool tea.</font><p></p>


created: 2008-06-05 21:31:23
subject: <b>Well....</b>
body:
I do not quite agree with it since, at least to me, it makes a better story if it actually is Lews Therin chatting with him.  Although I did vote 'yes' because I thoroughly enjoyed reading the theory and it is a new and refreshing way to look at it.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">--------------------------------------------------------------<br />If that made sense, I congratulate you.</font><p></p>


created: 2008-06-05 22:42:53
subject: <b>Sounds good, but</b>
body:
Mat's memories aren't only from his past lives. He says he remember's fighting on the same side as Hawking, and fighting against him. <br /><br /><br />Doesn't affect the theory too much, but just wanted to point that out.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Poets have been mysteriously silent on the subject of cheese.&quot;     -G. K. Chesterton<br /> <br />My naked walrus is on fire. <img src="images/personalsmilies/41668.gif" /><br /><br />TEVT: We are back in business! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/w00t.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2008-06-03 12:22:45
subject: <b>Agreed</b>
body:
I like the irony of it. Rand wishing to learn power and becoming stronger harder, but in the end all that means nothing.<br /><br />Also your theory do make sense  with &quot; While the DO is bound in 1 world he if bound in all, but if he is freed in 1 world he is freed in all&quot;  or something like that<br /><br />Cause some AS said tha the Dream world is the same for all the worlds, so that is the link beetween all the mirror worlds.<br /><br />so by passing by the dream world all the first contradiction sentence is true.<br /><br />So i agree with you that the Dream world will be a key element in TG, but i doubt it will play that major role<br /><br />but nontheless Great job


created: 2008-06-03 23:25:04
subject: <b>Agreed</b>
body:
I love it, i have always wondered how the hell Rand was planning on defeating the Dark One with the power when the mere prescence of SH would cause people to be cut off fromt he power. Min also said it is essential that he be taught that lesson or he will lose TG. Good thinking.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;We'll dance all night while the moon runs free,<br />and dandle the lasses upon our knee,<br />and then you'll ride along with me,<br />to dance with Jak o' the Shadows.&quot;<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2008-06-04 14:14:08
subject: <b>Interesting</b>
body:
I think that there will be many important physical battles as part of TG, but I have gone on record before saying that the defining battle will be within Rand himself.<br />If he succumbs to the DO, then TG is lost. If he succeeds in his denial of the DO, then TG will be won.<br />Good presentation; well done.


created: 2008-06-04 16:37:35
subject: <b>Egwene is not the Dragon</b>
body:
I am not saying that the battle with the DO will be in TAR.  I am saying that the battle with the DO will be <u>analogous</u> to a battle in TAR, because the WOT actual reality will be as malleable to the DO, and susceptible to his control, as the TAR reality is to normal humans.  I am also arguing that Rand, as the Dragon, strongest <i>ta'veren</i> ever and reality's appointed champion, will be endowed with a similar ability to affect reality and thereby resist/reverse the DO's attempted changes/disintegration of reality.  Although I think many of the principles will be similar -- strength of will prevailing, reality being manipulated, resistance of reality's landscape to change -- the idea is not that TAR hosts the battle.  It is that reality itself becomes, <i>but only</i> for these two combatants, something that can be manipulated the way that Dreamwalkers can manipulate TAR.  <br /><br />Egwene cannot do the same thing because Egwene is not the Dragon.  My argument is that the Dragon will be anointed and endowed as the focal point of every thread in the Pattern's continued desire to exist unaltered.  My speculation is that we have already seen the Pattern's threads &quot;cooperate&quot; (act collectively, even if unconsciously) in this way because my secondary hypothesis is that TAR itself is a projection of the collective unconscious of every separate soul in the Pattern.  But even if TAR is not quite like this, it does not change my argument very much.  The Dragon is still the key.  In TAR Egwene can change Nynaeve's dress or create a monster out of thin air, but she cannot do those things in the waking world.  She cannot bend the WOT reality world the same way she can bend TAR.  The DO <u>can</u> bend the WOT reality world like that.  (See, e.g., weather manipulation, failing <i>saidar</i> wards, weakening barriers between life and death, etc.).  To some extent, Rand can too, though not really consciously at this point.  (See, e.g., Rand's <i>ta'veren</i> bending of chance and people changing their plans around him).  The Dragon is the Pattern's final defense mechanism.  I think Rand is, and will at the Last Battle be even moreso, endowed by the collective will of the Pattern with the ability to counter the DO's destructive manipulation/disintegration of reality by exerting the force of Rand's will to manipulate reality to save reality from disintegration.<br /><br />To put it another way, I see three separate planes of reality, each one subsidiary to the next, each dependent on the plane just above it and subject to manipulation by the higher plane's inhabitants.  It's sort of like Hamlet.  There is a &quot;play within a play,&quot; which means there are three &quot;realities&quot; there -- Shakespeare's actual world with its real Denmark, the fictional Denmark (containing Hamlet) created by Shakespeare, and the sub-fictional Denmark written into the &quot;play within a play&quot; by Hamlet, who was in turn written by Shakespeare.<br /><br />The highest plane of reality is the &quot;natural habitat&quot; of the DO and the Creator.  Its inhabitants are the DO and the Creator.  The consciousness of those inhabitants (or at least one of them) created the secondary reality, the WOT reality.  It exists &quot;in the mind of God,&quot; so to speak.  That is why it makes sense that the DO can manipulate WOT reality -- he's from a higher plane.  Then, within the WOT reality, there's a third sub-reality -- TAR, which I postulate is created by the collective consciousness of all the secondary reality's souls (like humans).  It makes sense that a human soul from WOT reality would be able to manipulate TAR reality -- that soul is from a higher plane.<br /><br />I think, from a more &quot;meta&quot; perspective, Robert Jordan was conceiving of his world as what it was, a story.  Imagine a Microsoft Word document containing the Wheel of Time text.  The DO is like a person locked out of the room, but who can poke through the door's mail slot with a long stick and jostle the keyboard, maybe even laboriously type a couple extra words, maybe delete a few.  He can't really destroy the whole manuscript at that point.  Once the door is open, though, he can do whatever he wants to the text.  Instead of having the Creator defend his work, though (analogous to the author punching the intruder), it's as though the author has a program running that notices when major changes are being made to the text and can automatically generate new text to replace it based on the autosaved memory of the old text.  The battle then ends up being between the intruder holding down the delete button and the auto-restore program re-typing the lost text.  I think the Dragon is like the auto-restore program, and the &quot;order and belief&quot; are sort of like the quality of the autosaved version.  If the autosaved version gets corrupted, has holes in it, whatever, then it can't be re-written as easily and the auto-restore program will have a harder time maintaining the integrity of the text.<br /><br />Anyway, that's possibly even longer than my original post, but I just wanted to be very clear that I am not suggesting that the Last Battle will be <u>inside</u> TAR, I am theorizing that reality itself will be manipulated and contested <u>similar</u> to battles we have seen in TAR.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Ronde Macura: Drink this, fools. <br />Nynaeve: Ah, nice, delicious fool tea.</font><p></p>


created: 2008-06-04 17:05:43
subject: <b>Is Egwene Taveren?</b>
body:
last i checked Rand was the strongest taveren in the history of the world. That is what makes Rand so key to TG is his ability to manipulate the power. Egwene or other dreamwalkers are only small parts of of a greater picture not the focal point.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;We'll dance all night while the moon runs free,<br />and dandle the lasses upon our knee,<br />and then you'll ride along with me,<br />to dance with Jak o' the Shadows.&quot;<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2008-06-04 20:53:57
subject: <b>she isnt</b>
body:
There was the novice at the camp who could see matt was glowing and if she was tavern we would know.   Also there was a few others who could see tavern like Logan and unless he can only see male tavern...well I think we would know


created: 2008-06-05 13:09:40
subject: <b>I like the mastering of his will, but the rest...</b>
body:
I definitely think you hit the nail on the head in regards to Cadsuanne and the need for an attitude adjustment for Rand.<br /><br />In my opinion...  I do not think the DO breaks free in AMOL (that is if Rand wins).  I think that if he breaks free, that is it, game over.  Once free, the DO would be equal only to the creator.  I think there is a possibility of Rand and the DO facing each other with possibily 1 or 2 seals left unbroken, or something along those lines.  In order for Rand to succeed there has to be some kind of handicap for the DO, and I think facing him with 1 seal still intact will have him weakened enough to make it balanced.<br /><br />I believe the end will be something less climatic, like Rand balefiring Cydane/Lanfear with the Choedon Cal, thus using so much power it completely erases her existance and the bore is sealed because Cyndane/Lanfear never existed in the first place to make it.<br /><br />Good write up and great detail!


created: 2008-06-05 13:14:04
subject: <b>Role of Taveren</b>
body:
Something you hinted at, but didn't say directly -<br /><br />Dreamwalkers can enter TAR, and manipulate it - it is a talent they possess.<br /><br />Taveren could be considered the dreamwalkers of the waking world. They change reality instinctively, just as dreamwalkers do to TAR intentionally.<br /><br />Taveren would have the same advantages in the last battle that dreamwalkers have in TAR. The question is, could Taveren learn to consciously manipulate the waking world in a manner analogous to the way Dreamwalkers manipulate TAR.<br /><br />Very interesting theory.


created: 2008-06-07 04:37:54
subject: <b>A hand</b>
body:
i gotta give it to you. that was either an epiphany moment when all of a sudden everything came together in your mind, or through constant thought and cross-referencing in the books. however you got there, it seems you hit the nail on the head. everything correlates, and nothing contradicts. it was a very powerful argument using the ishamael/rahvin references. and it would stand to reason that the dark ones TRUE goal was to unravel order and reality as we know it. keep up the theories. i'll be checking the board.


created: 2008-06-09 11:07:21
subject: <b>What about...</b>
body:
Hmm...that must be why the DO wants to &quot;let the lord of chaos rule&quot;...his goal is to create disaster in all aspects of the WoT world, and in Rand himself.  I like it.<br /><br />Also, though it's unclear how, the vague nature of the Finn prophecy, &quot;To live, you must die,&quot; would figure nicely into the proposed battle of wills between Rand and the DO.<br /><br />Great theory, incredibly well thought out!


created: 2008-06-09 11:54:09
subject: <b>Balefire issue</b>
body:
PTH, good point on the balefire.  I actually had thought about that prior to the theory, and I think there are a couple of plausible explanations that fit with my theory.<br /><br />Explanation #1:  Balefire could do the job, but it's impossible to arrange.  This would gel with the DO's statement to Demandred in the prologue of LoC -- &quot;Would you unleash the balefire in my service?&quot; (insert big scary caps).  Remember, there was no agreement during the AoL war NOT to use balefire; both sides just stopped out of self-preservation.  Also remember that no one on the DO's side (except Ishamael) WANTS the world to unravel.  If the DO just said, straight out, &quot;I want the world to unravel.  Balefire everything,&quot; then he would probably not have any followers left except Ishamael, who would probably be hunted down by his own former allies.  Neither the Forsaken nor any other Darkfriends are interested in freeing the DO if it means permanent death; they are in it for the immortality and lordship.  Thus, the DO cannot feasibly find enough people to use enough balefire to unmake reality.  If you recall, they said they balefired <i>whole cities</i> during the Age of Legends -- hundreds of thousands or millions of threads burned out of the Pattern -- and reality did not unravel.  That suggests that it takes a LOT of balefire to destroy the Pattern, and the DO just might not be able to arrange it -- he's better off lying to his followers, letting them break him loose, and then unraveling the world himself.<br /><br />Explanation #2:  Balefire just won't do the job.  Under this formulation, there is something special about the DO unraveling reality that means balefire cannot substitute.  The most likely explanation for this is the nature of the DO in relation to the &quot;portal worlds&quot; -- the DO and TAR are the only things consistent throughout all of them.  Thus, if balefire unraveled Randland's reality, there could still be infinite other realities where the DO is still bound.  Balefire unraveling Randland could still leave lots of other realities intact, and thus the &quot;Greater Pattern&quot; would still exist (the multiverse, in comic-book-speak) and would still constrain the DO.  If the DO broke free and unraveled reality, though, he would be broken free in all &quot;portal worlds&quot; and thus <i>his</i> unraveling would be of <i>all</i> realities.  A second possible explanation fitting the &quot;balefire won't do it&quot; idea is that when balefire unravels the Pattern, it doesn't <i>uncreate</i> the Pattern.  I think I remember some quote about threads sometimes &quot;snapping back into unfamiliar configurations,&quot; or something like that, in relation to balefire (or maybe it was in relation to <i>ta'veren</i> -- in either case, a reality bender).  If this were the case, then unraveling the Pattern via balefire would just result in all the threads completely drifting apart and then clumping back together completely unpredictably.  Everything in the old reality would be gone, true, so to them it would be like &quot;reality unraveled,&quot; but in the end there could still be <i>some</i> Pattern there constraining the DO, just not the same one.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Ronde Macura: Drink this, fools. <br />Nynaeve: Ah, nice, delicious fool tea.</font><p></p>


created: 2008-06-16 14:23:08
subject: <b>Some additional thoughts</b>
body:
I have been turning over some of this in my mind.. and came to the conclusion that &quot;A memory of light&quot; is how the battle with the DO is won. This is more of a plot/philosophical perspective than one that is backed strictly by evidence.<br /><br />It would be very disappointing if all of these seals breaking do not release the DO at some point, and the shadow at noon (like Rand saw in another man's memories in Rhuidean).<br /><br />I am not sure whether the battle is in TAR or in the regular people world, but it seems to me that what's important is that Rand remembers the light and all the good worth saving in the world to defeat the &quot;Dark&quot; one. This seems to be why Callandor is so important to defeating the DO -- it allows reality to be adjusted, not just the flows of the one power channelled. Perhaps the shadow is defeated simply by Rand and the two women helping him &quot;remake&quot; the world without the Shadow, but with the sun and light. This makes sense to also be why Rand must have an attitude adjustment by Cadsuane. What good is it to defeat the DO if the world will be remade into chaos.<br /><br />Also, this changing of reality (whether in TAR or not) can have a great personal affect on Rand, restoring his physical body without the taint of two unhealing wounds or a missing hand, and restoring his mind to a single entity. Perhaps this is what is referred to in the vision about Rand putting on many faces until the face he puts on becomes him.


created: 2008-10-19 13:40:33
subject: <b>You forgot something...</b>
body:
The DO has been frree before, for about a hundred years or more during the War of Power. Then, it was LTT who was fighting him, and i'm sure he would have made some mention of having to hold reality together for that long, at the same time as trying to kill the forsaken and win the biggest war in history. Also, if he wanted to unravel the entire pattern, why would he even bother with fighting a war? Why not simply do it? It would save all that time ressurecting the Chosen.<br /><br />Other than that, I like it.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'til shade is gone, 'til water is gone, yeah, yeah, bring on Tarmon Gai'don already! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lan.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2008-11-04 16:12:20
subject: <b>Not the same thing</b>
body:
<i>The DO has been frree before, for about a hundred years or more during the War of Power.</i><br /><br />No, not really.  Remember, the Bore has (to put it crudely) gotten &quot;bigger&quot; over time.  It's a tear in the fabric of reality that keeps expanding.  In the AOL, at its beginning, the Bore was not sealed, but it was also too &quot;small&quot; to allow the DO unfettered access to the world.  To paraphrase an earlier post of mine, it was like he was looking through a mail slot in a wooden door.  He could see and touch the room a little, but not access it. <br /><br /><i>Also, if he wanted to unravel the entire pattern, why would he even bother with fighting a war? Why not simply do it? It would save all that time ressurecting the Chosen.</i><br /><br />The answer to this ties in to the above.  We know (from Herid Fel and the DO's orders) that order brings strength to the Pattern and that chaos weakens it.  There was a lot of order in the AOL that meant it was very hard for the DO to affect the Pattern, i.e. the mail slot was very small, just a slight gash in a hardwood door.  But after 100 years of war and the DO deliberately fomenting chaos, it was more like a jagged hole in a door of rotting wood -- maybe he still couldn't get free, but the hole was widening and allowing more access.  The Bore was the equivalent of nailing a sheet of tin over the hole, with the seven Seals like seven nails -- it helped stopped the immediate problem, but didn't repair the rotted wood, meaning the nails could loosen and the whole door precariously ready to fall apart when the tin patch finally gave way.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Ronde Macura: Drink this, fools. <br />Nynaeve: Ah, nice, delicious fool tea.</font><p></p>


created: 2008-11-16 11:24:17
subject: <b>the seals</b>
body:
i think that all the seals can be destroyed and the dark one still wont break free - completely. the real 'seal' on the dark ones prison is the creater removing him from the pattern, the seals were created to patch the hole that lanfear had created.<br /><br />Also you need to remember that after all - this is a novel, so things aren't going to happen that negate the whole series, like balefiring lanfear so there was no creation of anything and the Age of Legends continued is in all probability not going to happen - though i may eat my words when it comes out.<br /><br />I like your theory on how it will be his strength of will that wins TG rather than raw power. Though you definately made the right choice in stressing that the battle will not actually be fought in TAR. As i said before, this is a novel and it needs to be sensationalist and powerful, so even though he will realise that it isn't just raw power that is need to win TG and put the dark one back outside the pattern (WoT is all about balance, the dark one can't be destroyed because then there would only be the creator, which wouldnt make sense with balance) he will steal use the one power as a major tool in defeating the dark one. Again with balance, the dark one was 'freed' using the one power, so he should be able to be prisoned using the one power as well.<br /><br />using the one power will definately be involved in rand winning TG, but it wont be the defining factor - his, and the other ta'veren's strength of will will.


created: 2009-01-27 23:39:18
subject: <b>Good Job, Just a few follow ups</b>
body:
Good Job on the theory, I definitely think it i s a viable option for how TG will be fought. I just wanted to address the issue of the OP/TP and its role in TG. As you said, TG will be a battle of reality between Rand and the DO, Order vs Chaos. OP/TP fit into this theme perfectly, both will aid their respective champions in the battle for reality. Each channeler using the OP will add a measure of order to the pattern, helping Rand resist the DO, while the opposite will be true of those who wield the TP, which acts as a tool of chaos (this is derived from its addictive qualities and opposing nature to the OP, both &quot;unravel&quot; each other&quot;.) This would make the entire build up of the OP in the ashaman and aes sedai meaningful without forcing it to take center stage in TG. <br /><br />Also, I have another theory about Rand's temperament and how it is important for him to &quot;learn to laugh and cry&quot;. You mentioned an auto correct program, which is a good analogy to describe how this battle will be fought. Think of Rand's temperament as the template for the auto correct program to fill in the words. His present cold, detached, and hard temperament would be a disaster because the auto correct program would fill in the blanks created by the dark one with a cold and harsh reality. The normal happiness and feeling that is present in the Pattern would be replaced by lifelessness, and the only way to avert this misconstruction is to teach rand how to be a normal human being again.


created: 2009-04-16 12:37:30
subject: <b>Also</b>
body:
I love this theory, its the best one I have read.<br />One thing of note, it also provides for the sealing of the bore;<br /> Lews Therin, with infinetely more knowledge than Rand, was unable to completely seal the bore, but if this theory is right Rand, after beating the DO in battle of wills, can manipulate the world to remake the DO original prison, whole and unblemished.


created: 2008-06-11 16:52:37
subject: <b>Could be different meaning of Translate</b>
body:
The word &quot;translate&quot; just uses the Latin root verb &quot;to transfer.&quot;  Someone can be translated in space just as easily (and perhaps more literally) than translating one set of symbols into another language.  I always thought the Ogier were from outside the Portal Stones worlds, because the Portal Stones appear to only do quantum variants of Randland, whereas the Ogier seem to have no connection to the One Power at all, and the One Power seems to inhabit all the parallel Portal Stones worlds.  I read a moderately convincing theory that they come from a completely separate universe that the Creator did not imbue with the One Power, and that the various <i>stedding</i> represent pockets of that universe, hence the One Power lack.  Alternatively, I think it somewhat likely that the Ogier are not from a Portal World, but rather from another planet in Randland's prime reality -- then the &quot;Book of Translation&quot; would be a teleportation device over space, rather than a parallel universe hopper.<br /><br />Still liked your theory, which I gave a thumbs up.  It all hangs together (except the petrified tree thing), although I think that it is more likely just a guide to reading the symbols on the Portal Stones -- I always had the impression they could be invoked without using the One Power or anything else, if only one knew how to activate them.  Having the Book of Translation be an instruction manual would make sense.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Ronde Macura: Drink this, fools. <br />Nynaeve: Ah, nice, delicious fool tea.</font><p></p>


created: 2008-06-12 10:23:31
subject: <b>Highly doubtful</b>
body:
Portal Stones only lead to &quot;Parallel&quot; (i.e. &quot;Mirror&quot; ) Worlds.  That is, &quot;Mirror&quot; versions of Rand's Earth, where different decisions have been made.  RJ clarified this a couple of years ago.<br /><br />(As a side note, each Mirror Earth must exist in a different &quot;reality&quot; - i.e. universe - than Rand's Earth, since they are all versions of Rand's Earth.)<br /><br />However, it's highly doubtful that the Ogier originated on a Mirror Earth.  Rather, it's much more likely that they originated on a different WORLD (i.e. on a different planet, in a different Solar System, probably in the same Galaxy, as Rand's Earth) in the Rand Earth reality/universe.<br /><br />In that case, the Portal Stones cannot be used to reach the Ogier home planet, because Portal Stones don't take you to different worlds in Rand's reality/universe, they take you to Mirror Earths in different realities/universes.<br /><br />Incidentally, the 'Finn also are not native to Rand's Earth, nor are they native to any of the Mirror Earths (RJ clarified this a couple of years ago, also), so they cannot be reached via Portal Stones, either.  Rather they come from different world(s), probably in a different reality/universe, since the laws of physics seem to be different on their world(s).<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Rise and fall, turn the Wheel,<br />'cause all life is<br />Is really just a circle.&quot;<br /><br />-BHT&amp;tM</font><p></p>


created: 2008-06-12 10:45:34
subject: <b>Portal Stones can move you in space</b>
body:
Rand has used Portal Stones several times to move groups of people in space within the same universe (that is, without entering a Mirror World).  So if the Ogier are from another planet in Randland Prime (for lack of a better term) and that planet has its own Portal Stones, it is possible the Ogier could use Portal Stones to move them through space within the same universe.<br /><br />That said, I tend to agree with Shishka.  I thought the Ogier either came from another planet in the same universe, or from a wholly different universe, rather than one of the offshoots of Randland.  After all, the Mirror Worlds are really like sub-realities:  it's like the Creator made Randland universe, and then as soon as anything started happening, Randland started throwing off mirror worlds -- but all would ultimately derive from Randland Prime, and be part of the same &quot;multiverse,&quot; so to speak.  If the Ogier are from another reality (rather than another planet), I would think it was from a different Prime universe that would have its own set of Mirror Worlds.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Ronde Macura: Drink this, fools. <br />Nynaeve: Ah, nice, delicious fool tea.</font><p></p>


created: 2008-06-12 11:22:09
subject: <b>Sorry, I need to correct part of what I said previously</b>
body:
Previously, I implied &quot;Parallel&quot; Worlds and &quot;Mirror&quot; Worlds are synonymous.  They are not.  Here's what RJ had to say:<br /><br /><i>Q: Are Parallel worlds and Mirror worlds the same thing?<br /><br />RJ: No, they are different.<br /><br />Q: Do Parallel Worlds have their own [Mirror] reflections?<br /><br />RJ: Possibly.<br /><br />Q: Do Portal Stones lead to Parallel Worlds, Mirror Worlds, or both?<br /><br />RJ: They lead to Mirror Worlds, the Portal Stones can take you to Mirror Worlds, not to Parallels, which are separate.<br /><br />Q: The Finns reside in a Parallel world, is that correct?<br /><br />RJ: Yes.</i><br /><br />So, the Finn reside in a Parallel world, and therefore cannot be reached via Portal Stones.  I suspect the same is true of the Ogier homeworld (which is what I was trying to say previously).<br /><br />To glaur_dm ... the Portal Stones on Rand's Earth can move you around on Rand's Earth, or to (and presumably around) any Mirror Earth, as we've seen.  But, there is no indication that they can be used to move you to a non-Earth world, either in Rand's reality/universe, or in a different one.  And, if you assume that &quot;non-Earth World&quot; is synonymous with &quot;Parallel World&quot; (which it may be), then we know for sure (given RJ's comments) that Portal Stones cannot move you to a non-Earth world.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Rise and fall, turn the Wheel,<br />'cause all life is<br />Is really just a circle.&quot;<br /><br />-BHT&amp;tM</font><p></p>


created: 2008-06-12 11:56:25
subject: <b>Some more thoughts</b>
body:
If we go with glaur_dm's defintions (which I like) then:<br /><br />&quot;Randland Prime Multiverse&quot; consists of:<br /><br />- Rand's Earth.<br />- All the other star systems &amp; galaxies in the universe which comprises Rand's Earth.<br />- All the Mirror versions of Rand's Earth, and their associated star systems &amp; galaxies in their universes.<br /><br />Given that, I agree with glaur_dm's speculation that the 'Finn are from a &quot;Finnland Prime Multiverse&quot;, which consists of:<br /><br />- The 'Finn's world(s)<br />- All the the other star systems &amp; galaxies in the universe which comprises the 'Finn's world(s).<br />- All the Mirror versions of the 'Finn's world(s), and their associated star systems &amp; galaxies in their universes.<br /><br />And, the &quot;Finnland Prime Multiverse&quot; and the &quot;Randland Prime Multiverse&quot; are entirely distinct - i.e. they exist in &quot;Parallel&quot;.  Therefore, RJ says that the 'Finn inhabit a &quot;Parallel World&quot;.  That makes sense, because the laws of physics seem to be different on the 'Finn world(s) than on Rand's Earth.<br /><br />Presumably, there are other &quot;Prime Multiverses&quot; out there, in addition to Randland Prime and Finnland Prime.<br /><br />In that case, a &quot;Parallel World&quot; would only be a small subset of all the &quot;non-Earth Worlds&quot;, because &quot;non-Earth Worlds&quot; would include all the other planets in Randland Prime Multiverse, in additon to all of the &quot;Parallel Worlds&quot; in all of the other Prime Multiverses (including the 'Finn one).<br /><br />In the books, Verin mentions &quot;Perpendicular Worlds&quot; also.  We know that they differ from &quot;Parallel Worlds&quot; from the following RJ quote:<br /><br /><i>Q: Do the Finns inhabit a perpendicular world? <br /><br />RJ: No, it is a parallel world.</i><br /><br />But, there's not much (in the books or the Guide) to suggest what they are.<br /><br />We can speculate, though.  Perhaps &quot;Perpendicular Worlds&quot; are other worlds within the Randland Prime Multiverse.  In that case, perhaps the Ogier originated from one of those, where the laws of physics are the same as on Rand's Earth.<br /><br />We don't know for sure that Portal Stones cannot take you to (my definition of) Perpendicular Worlds, but there is no indication that they can.  So far, we've only seen them used to move people around on Rand's Earth and to the Mirror Earths.  Not to any &quot;non-Earths&quot;.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Rise and fall, turn the Wheel,<br />'cause all life is<br />Is really just a circle.&quot;<br /><br />-BHT&amp;tM</font><p></p>


created: 2008-06-12 12:34:49
subject: <b>Note on Portal Stone space travel</b>
body:
Shishka:  I'm with you on the general worlds description.  It describes well the way I see the various universes relating to each other.  My speculation about the Ogier, as I've said, is divided:  I think it about equally likely that they come from a wholly separate Prime (&quot;Ogier Prime,&quot; with little or no connection to &quot;Randland Prime&quot; or &quot;'Finn Prime&quot; et al.), or that they come from another planet in Randland Prime.  I think it much less likely that they come from a Randland mirror world.<br /><br />I also agree that there is no evidence that the Portal Stones can go to &quot;other Primes&quot; -- the 'Finn universe seems accessible only through the Tower of Ghenjei or the doorways, otherwise it seems likely that Moiraine (who had traveled by Portal Stone) might have mentioned in her letter that they were an alternate possibility to get there, instead of relying solely on the ToG.  From what we see, Portal Stones can move you in regular space, or they can move you to Mirror Worlds.<br /><br />But there is also specific evidence in the books that the Portal Stones move people through space <i>by linking one Portal Stone to another</i>.  Every time we see Rand use one (except when he enters the Mirror World), he moves between Portal Stones by selecting symbols that represent other Portal Stones.  If it is true that Stone-to-Stone is how movement happens, then distance does not seem to be an issue so much as whether or not there is a Portal Stone located in the place you want to go.  It's a little like the &quot;stargate&quot; motif.  If there's a Portal Stone on the Ogier homeworld (if they are in fact from another planet), then it is at least plausible that the Portal Stones could move them through space from one Portal Stone on Rand's planet to a Portal Stone on the Ogier home planet.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Ronde Macura: Drink this, fools. <br />Nynaeve: Ah, nice, delicious fool tea.</font><p></p>


created: 2008-06-12 12:49:00
subject: <b>a book, heh?</b>
body:
a book, suggests language, and language is defined by an &quot;agreement&quot; of symbols with certain meanings. what then, is the purpose of language? one interpretation is to record the Past; Ogier are Builders, and the Present is built on the Past events. The Book of Translation defines the Past for the Wheel of Time, so that the Dark One doesn't change the Past, which he can easily do once/if he breaks free. there is evidence of this with balefire/dead walking. By opening the book, one reads the pages, the reading is an act of interpretation of what the agreements mean. Thus, if loial thinks, they can't do that Now, he understands the Last Battle will destroy these &quot;agreements&quot; to unmake Time. Essentially, the Ogier are giving up already in trying to escape confrontation with the Shadow, thinking their dimension is safe from destruction, and thus the book will Grow another world like Randland in the future.


created: 2008-06-12 12:56:15
subject: <b>To glaur_dm:</b>
body:
<b>Shishka: I'm with you on the general worlds description. It describes well the way I see the various universes relating to each other. My speculation about the Ogier, as I've said, is divided: I think it about equally likely that they come from a wholly separate Prime (&quot;Ogier Prime,&quot; with little or no connection to &quot;Randland Prime&quot; or &quot;'Finn Prime&quot; et al.), or that they come from another planet in Randland Prime.</b><br /><br />Either is possible, I agree.  For some reason, I think it more likely that the Ogier come from another planet in Randland Prime.  Not sure why, really.  Maybe because they don't seem so &quot;alien&quot; as the 'Finn, to me.<br /><br /><b>I think it much less likely that they come from a Randland mirror world.</b><br /><br />Agreed.<br /><br /><b>I also agree that there is no evidence that the Portal Stones can go to &quot;other Primes&quot; -- the 'Finn universe seems accessible only through the Tower of Ghenjei or the doorways, otherwise it seems likely that Moiraine (who had traveled by Portal Stone) might have mentioned in her letter that they were an alternate possibility to get there, instead of relying solely on the ToG. From what we see, Portal Stones can move you in regular space, or they can move you to Mirror Worlds.</b><br /><br />Right, plus RJ said flat out that Portal Stones cannot take you to Parallel Worlds (see the quotes I cited above).  So, I don't think there is any question about that.<br /><br /><b>But there is also specific evidence in the books that the Portal Stones move people through space by linking one Portal Stone to another. Every time we see Rand use one (except when he enters the Mirror World), he moves between Portal Stones by selecting symbols that represent other Portal Stones. If it is true that Stone-to-Stone is how movement happens, then distance does not seem to be an issue so much as whether or not there is a Portal Stone located in the place you want to go. It's a little like the &quot;stargate&quot; motif. If there's a Portal Stone on the Ogier homeworld (if they are in fact from another planet), then it is at least plausible that the Portal Stones could move them through space from one Portal Stone on Rand's planet to a Portal Stone on the Ogier home planet.</b><br /><br />I understand, and agree.  IF the Ogier home planet is in Randland Prime, and IF it (somehow) has a Portal Stone, then it is theoretically possible that a Portal Stone on Rand's Earth could be used to travel to the Portal Stone on the Ogier home planet.  We don't have enough information to eliminate that as a possibility.  But personally, I think it's doubtful that the Ogier home planet has Portal Stones.  Consequently, I think the &quot;Book of Translation&quot; is something entirely different/unrelated.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Rise and fall, turn the Wheel,<br />'cause all life is<br />Is really just a circle.&quot;<br /><br />-BHT&amp;tM</font><p></p>


created: 2008-06-12 21:33:21
subject: <b>Good thinking</b>
body:
I wonder if the world of the Wookies is on Ogier Prime...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;We'll dance all night while the moon runs free,<br />and dandle the lasses upon our knee,<br />and then you'll ride along with me,<br />to dance with Jak o' the Shadows.&quot;<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2008-06-13 18:15:39
subject: <b>I really like your theory...but...</b>
body:
...you probably shouldn't assume that ALL of the wotmaniacs will agree on any one thing!<br /><br />That said, well done.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">The Upper Peninsula...the Two Rivers of this world... <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2008-06-14 18:38:47
subject: <b>Resounding Applause</b>
body:
i think you hit the nail on the head with this one. i don't really know about the whole 'petrified' portal stones idea. i mean, its sound enough, but i'd like a better explanation of how they got that way. anyway, your thoughts seem deep and expansive, so i hope you keep theorizing. you're giving me a whole new scope of thought to ponder on. try to pay attention to some of the things herid fel was saying. i have a feeling that there are more answers in that than we currently know.


created: 2008-06-14 20:18:38
subject: <b>one interesting thing</b>
body:
To Loials knowledge they recently discovered stone singing and I dont have the book infront of me but he says something to effect of the that he thinks the pattern threw stone sining onto them and that he says stone singing is a lot like tree sining but they cant get the stone to come alive like the trees do when they tree sing.  <br /><br />This was early early on in the series and I would bet most people have forgotten it, I think this is in fact a very important fact and I hope someone can connect this fact to something els I missed and make a great theory, this one is good too


created: 2008-06-16 13:24:49
subject: <b>Thanks guys</b>
body:
To those who disagreed or are more deeply theorizing on this:<br />Thanks, There's a lot that i now realize i forgot to incorporate into this and you've reminded me of that, but I'm glad i got some conversation sparked on it.<br /><br />To those who either agree or enjoyed:<br />thanks for the words of encouragement, I appreciate it, it's tough to get something on here that hasn't been done to death already <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />To BFunk: HUH?<br /><br />To SixPips: no idea how petrified trees would have been turned into teleportation devices. I was trying to find some correlation between Ogier being able to manipulate living flora with their singing, and why the Portal Stones would be activated by it as well. That was me kinda reaching on that part.<br />I still think the BoT is a sort of Musical Cipher, though whether it works in the way i initially theorized i'm not so sure about ... Shishka and glaur_dm had some pretty interesting points.<br /><br />to pyroman:<br />dude, i honestly have no idea what you're talking about. I've read the books like 80 times, and I did a google search about loial and stone singing and came up with Nil. If you've got a book no., page no., etc, dude share it up, cause I'd be interested to read it, but i really don't remember that. I would think that would be rather a big issue.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">___________________________<br />i'm a WoThead <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br />___________________________<br />When all else fails, laugh.<br />___________________________<br /><br /><i>Tai'Shar Charleston, S.C.!</i></font><p></p>


created: 2008-06-17 00:58:59
subject: <b>got it</b>
body:
pg 463 eye of the world<br /><br />&quot;working with stone...&quot; His shoulders gave a massive shrug. &quot;That was just something learned in the years after the breaking, during the Exile, when we were still trying to find the stedding again. (note he says the stedding) It is a fine thing, I suppose, but not the true thing. Try as you will-and I have read that the Ogier who built thoes cities truly did try-you cannot make stone live.  A few still do work with stone, but only because you humans damage the buildings so often with your wars.......(he is long winded)  In any case, you see, working with stone is just something that was thrust on us by the weaving of the pattern; the groves came from the heart.


created: 2008-06-17 01:01:37
subject: <b>hmm</b>
body:
I think this is a major clue and was given to us at the very start of the series to hope we would forget it kinda thing and will come back and really be something important, but what it is I just cant figure out...


created: 2008-06-17 09:08:25
subject: <b>stone singing</b>
body:
pyroman - At first I was going to say that Loial only means working with stone like a human stonemason, but then I realized if that were the case why could Ogier do it any better than a human stonemason? They must do something different or it wouldn't be so much better (I don't think the fact that they are bigger would be enough to make them better stonemasons). So perhaps you are correct and they do &quot;stonesing&quot;


created: 2008-06-17 13:57:45
subject: <b>one more thing</b>
body:
if you read on you see &quot;It gave us the Breaking of the World, and the Exile, and Stone and the Longing, and eventually it gave us bac the stedding before we all died...in refrence to the pattern.<br /><br />note that stone is capitalized. He didnt say the Stone, he just says Stone.  However I think its odd that later in the books Loial and that one ashaman came looking for rand and Loial pretends to a stone mason and they (2 sisters) look at his hands and say something like they dont look like stone masons hands...but the comment about making it live and it not being the true thing makes me say they stone sing...If anyone has a comment from JR about this subject please post it, or if anyone has the refrence book or what ever it is, I never bought it...if there is anything let us know!


created: 2008-06-17 20:58:00
subject: <b>well</b>
body:
I thought it was common that people thought the ogier could stone sing els how could they be such master craftsmen that men could never dream to emulate...I just submitted it as a stone singing theory


created: 2008-06-18 14:02:39
subject: <b>Good Thoughts ...</b>
body:
I'm not sure how to vote on this, though.  <br /><br />I agree you have the right idea about the <b>Book of Translation</b>.  The conversation you quote is what led me to think the same thing.  But I think it relates  to something <b>other</b> than the Portal Stones, something we have probably not yet seen.<br /><br />Also, I remember an insight that the Ogier came from some other planet in Randland as well.  But I can't remember now why I thought that.  I just remember there was some reference that made sense.  There are some hints that perhaps people could engage in space travel during the AOL (or maybe an earlier Age).  If I remember right, there is an old legend involving an <i>Eagle</i> and the Moon.


created: 2008-06-18 21:47:55
subject: <b>To Pathfinder</b>
body:
It's EoTW, I believe the chapter is #4, &quot;The Gleeman&quot; where the 'kids' meet Thom for the first time, and Egwene asks him to tell them the story of Lenn, and how he flew to the moon in the belly of an eagle made of fire ...<br /><br />This was a reference, in my estimation, to John Glenn, and considering the tremendous amount of time taken for the story to be corrupted to John Glenn being called Lenn, i'm figuring that they think he landed rather than Buzz Aldrin and Neil Armstrong ... the 'eagle made of fire' i'm assuming is the re-entry ...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">___________________________<br />i'm a WoThead <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br />___________________________<br />When all else fails, laugh.<br />___________________________<br /><br /><i>Tai'Shar Charleston, S.C.!</i></font><p></p>


created: 2008-06-18 21:49:29
subject: <b>I should also add</b>
body:
There were also old stories of Mosk and Merk, and their lances of fire that reached across the world (Moscow and America, and ICBMs) and Alsbet, Queen of All (Elizabeth, Queen of the British Empire, over which the sun never set) ... i believe most of this is in the FAQ.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">___________________________<br />i'm a WoThead <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br />___________________________<br />When all else fails, laugh.<br />___________________________<br /><br /><i>Tai'Shar Charleston, S.C.!</i></font><p></p>


created: 2008-06-19 21:43:45
subject: <b>to meadcd</b>
body:
The eagle made of fire:<br />they name of the craft they took to the moon was the eagle.<br />hence the famous phrase...<br />the eagle has landed.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Mjolner <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bobbafett.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br />Somewhere, something incredible <br />is waiting to be known. <br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2008-06-24 09:09:30
subject: <b>Mjolner:</b>
body:
Thanks! I suppose i <i>should</i> have known that <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smackhead.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">___________________________<br />i'm a WoThead <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br />___________________________<br />When all else fails, laugh.<br />___________________________<br /><br /><i>Tai'Shar Charleston, S.C.!</i></font><p></p>


created: 2008-06-29 12:22:35
subject: <b>Actually...</b>
body:
I was doing some reading when they first used the portal stones...and I have to disagree with you. You are close but you missed it.  Loial says when looking at the stones that somehow the syombles seem familiar to him but he doesnt see how they were familiar...and not much was known about portal stones, or at least they didnt want to share thier knowledge, but Loial made that slip perhaps that the syombles seemed familiar...


created: 2008-07-06 17:22:27
subject: <b>well</b>
body:
the admins just hate because I submitted a nice theory that was based off your slightly...its that the portal stones is what breaks the world, and its the portal stones that rand uses to firm reality so to speak.<br /><br />they are the only thing that we know of that has existed since before the trolloc wars, also it can be argued that they existed even back before then because rands first use of the portal stones with loial on the world there were steps on it and the steps were painted with the AS colors. now during the age of legends they had many many many ajahs and no colors, therefore it had to been painted and the steps some time before the bore was sealed by the dragon in the last full rotation of the cycle...I think the book might help rand do this. He found the &quot;central&quot; stone (to activate them all) so to say, because of his tavern luck...


created: 2008-07-10 12:33:19
subject: <b>Ogier at Home</b>
body:
It's a good theory, altough I don't really belive its true.<br /><br />Now what I'm really interested in, is that, wherever the ogier came from, do you think some stayed home? If yes how many?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Don't say always, don't say never.</font><p></p>


created: 2008-06-24 23:36:27
subject: <b>Hmmmm...</b>
body:
The Hundred Companions aren't the Heroes of the Horn. Some of them could be, but the Heroes and Companions are seperate groups.<br /><br />Also, I think that Rand vs. DO will not be an OP battle, but Mat, Perrin, Elayne, Egwene, Lan, all them folks, will be fighting regular armies, OP and cannons and all that.<br /><br />The colors are obviously reminding the Ta'veren (sp?) that they need to regroup. Min's viewing of the fireflies and the darkness seem to confirm this. But I don't think Mat and Perrin need to be there for the final showdown with the DO, otherwise they would all be the Dragon Reborn. They just have to meet Rand and be ready.<br /><br />Mat will obviously have to sound the horn. And, as a side note, even if all or most of the Heroes were Ta'veren at one time, they will not always be. Rand/Mat/Perrin, if they survive, will probably not stay Ta'veren long.<br /><br />Yeah, all in all, I agree. However, I don't really think that there is much new here. The DO and Forsaken want chaos, the good guys want order (I refuse to capitalize them; this isn't Recluse). The good guys have to work together, the Horn must be sounded.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;<i>And it breaks my heart to look around, and see the unimpressed, who can't believe the emperor is dressed.</i>&quot;~Fastball<br /><br /><b><font color="#FF0000">1</font></b></font>-7-1<br /><br /><i>W!</i><br /><p></p>


created: 2008-06-25 14:28:36
subject: <b>hm</b>
body:
about the comment, it tickles my memory but I just dont remember...where did you come up with the part where they wouldnt be tavern after the last battle...I seem to remember a conversation somewhere but did it really state that when the pattern was finished with its design their tavern-ness would go away?  It is the pattern after all and could always use a tavern to mold it just the right way...


created: 2008-06-25 17:16:15
subject: <b>?</b>
body:
I don't see much of a theory here.  I just see incorrect labeling of groups (100 Heroes?  Really?)<br /><br />Anyway, I don't know that it's specifically stated anywhere that Rand, Mat, and Perrin won't be ta'veren after Tarmon Gai'don, but I do remember it being specifically stated that some people are ta'veren for only a short time, leading me to believe that ta'verenness can be time sensitive and finite.<br /><br />If I don't really believe that and made it up, sorry!


created: 2008-06-26 11:45:42
subject: <b>100 companions...</b>
body:
When i posted this i meant an analogy of the 100 companions when Lews Therin sealed the Bore... Not that the Heroes of the Horns were the 100 companions. I know they are different. But it seemed an interesting component when in TGH when Mat sounds the Horn and Rand looks around and they are startled by their numbers of &quot;about a hundred.&quot; And i am pretty sure the armies can fight well without Mat and Perrin needing to be there, the real battle will be fought at SG. Also, if someone is tied to the horn and the pattern wouldnt that seal them as Ta'veren? I find no evidence in the book that says they arent, but if you can find it that will be appreciated. So until this is disproven why cant one assume that they will be ta'veren when they return. They are Heroes afterall...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;We'll dance all night while the moon runs free,<br />and dandle the lasses upon our knee,<br />and then you'll ride along with me,<br />to dance with Jak o' the Shadows.&quot;<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2008-07-04 04:55:10
subject: <b>My 2 cents</b>
body:
I agree that the three Ta'veren have to be together for TG. Min's viewing of fire flies not withstanding, RJ has stated repeatedly that prophecy can't be fulfilled if Rand doesn't survive to face the DO. Hence his sidekicks will have to fight non-Power battles against the trolloc hordes and keep them from killing him while he does his business. Let's not forget the sealing of the bore was also accomplished with non-Power soilders, among whom the casualty rate was much higher than the Companions.<br /><br />I don't think that if TG isn't a battle of the OP that it has to be unraveling of reality; in either case a lot of people will be useless, i.e. the Aiel, the wolves, the legion of the Dragon, etc. In all likelihood it's not a battle of purely the OP, but OP and actual killing with weapons. The whole war of power during the AoL was with soilders &amp; OP after all. <br /><br />But would the Heros all be Ta'veren? I doubt it. Nowhere do I remember mention of the Heros all being Ta'veren, with the exception of Hawkwing. I think I remember from the TGH that Heros are spun out when something needs to be done, but I don't think everything that needs to be done would require Ta'veren. That much Ta'verenness (if they do all come back as Ta'veren) would probably seriously mess up the Pattern.


created: 2008-07-06 19:29:51
subject: <b>Response To Gavintron</b>
body:
Thanks for your comment, I want to restate my point that I believe a HUGE part of TG will be Trolloc Hordes and Dreadlords fighting against armies of Aiel, Borderlanders, Seanchan, Aes Sedai, Good Ashaman, and the Coalition of Nations. <br /><br />You stated &quot;But would the Heros all be Ta'veren? I doubt it. Nowhere do I remember mention of the Heros all being Ta'veren, with the exception of Hawkwing.&quot; And I agree with you that nowhere does it mention that all of them are Ta'veren, but my argument would then be what is a Ta'veren? They are people who the Pattern requires to shape the world in a specific way. Apparently they are more common then just Hawkwing and the three boys from Emond's Field else why would anyone have even heard of them? They seem to believe in the idea of Ta'veren more so then they believe in Ogier, and Trollocs and Fades and Lurks... for example. <br /><br />I also disagree with your comment on &quot;That much Ta'verenness (if they do all come back as Ta'veren) would probably seriously mess up the Pattern.&quot; The reason I disagree with this is I dont think you can mess up the pattern anymore than having reality itself be destroyed. I think the Pattern would almost REQUIRE that many ta'veren seeing that the DO in the flesh would seriously altern the Pattern and the only thing that would haev a chance to bring things back to what the Pattern needs is Ta'veren. <br /><br />But overall, good points, definitely will take comments and thoughts that are contrary to what I have posted. Thanks!<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;We'll dance all night while the moon runs free,<br />and dandle the lasses upon our knee,<br />and then you'll ride along with me,<br />to dance with Jak o' the Shadows.&quot;<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2008-08-07 20:07:03
subject: <b>i forget where it says, but</b>
body:
it says some where that no one is always Ta'vern it is a state of being that is temperary. otherwise i believe when Rand and Co. were growing up would have been much weirder<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I may be crazy but im still more---- OHH SHINY PENNY!<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Fear the ninja smiley<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ninja.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />ohhh pretty fire..Most not touch....OUCH IT BURNS!<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2008-08-07 23:15:51
subject: <b>true you arent born Ta'veren</b>
body:
But the heroes of the horn arent born again, they are called back. That would be the difference. They were sealed to the Horn and the Pattern in a Ta'veren state and hence when they return i believe they are still Ta'veren, in the same sense when they were originally born they had to earn being Ta'veren just like the others did as well.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;We'll dance all night while the moon runs free,<br />and dandle the lasses upon our knee,<br />and then you'll ride along with me,<br />to dance with Jak o' the Shadows.&quot;<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2008-07-17 16:42:56
subject: <b>Slave trade</b>
body:
The Shadowsmiths, don't have to get all of their sacrifices.  Some could be captured by dark friends and sent north.  Random question, did it say that the sacrifice had to be human?  Probably.


created: 2008-07-17 17:54:57
subject: <b>What about the traitors?</b>
body:
You seem to be leaving out a significant portion of the DO's forces, namely the darkfriends still undiscovered to the reader or the many we have never met. This would include Black sisters and Ashaman, not to mention Taim himself (whoever he may be) <br /><br />Also (and this is just a personal note) Sanderson has stated several times that the ending is pretty well completed and all but set in stone, so I dont see how it's up to him. The stuff leading up to the end sequence is undoubtably up to him but the ending is still Jordan's.


created: 2008-07-20 04:14:03
subject: <b>I like it</b>
body:
Good thinking, that would be an interesting twist on the ending, plus i have always wondered that myself, but then again i have always wondered the same with the orcs in Mordor. Its like a barren wasteland yet millions of orcs live there? I guess its just fantasy right?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;We'll dance all night while the moon runs free,<br />and dandle the lasses upon our knee,<br />and then you'll ride along with me,<br />to dance with Jak o' the Shadows.&quot;<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2008-07-22 12:57:32
subject: <b>Mordor had fief lands</b>
body:
This is not specifically related to the theory, but in response to the poster above, Tolkien mentions in LOTR that Sauron has huge tracts of fertile land to the south of Mordor that is worked by slaves to provide supplies for his legions of soldiers.<br /><br />As to the theory, I like it (and not just because my previous theory got positive press!).  The population conundrum does seem odd.  I'm not sure about the Blight being on the border of TAR, though; I'm more inclined to think the Blight is on the border of the DO's &quot;higher plane.&quot;  I like the sequence of events you predict.  My personal guess is that those events would precede the DO breaking free, though; I would think that the DO &quot;breaking free&quot; would sort of be like a person running through a big piece of paper -- the act of breaking out is itself inherently destructive.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Ronde Macura: Drink this, fools. <br />Nynaeve: Ah, nice, delicious fool tea.</font><p></p>


created: 2008-07-22 13:30:48
subject: <b>thanks glaur_dm</b>
body:
Yeah i wrote that at night when i wasnt thinking, but I checked int he morning and found the same thing. Oh and I also found that the Trollocs are omnivorous (prefer meat but eat all types of foods (World of RJ WOT)), so maybe they have a similar tracks of food growing somewhere near where the Trolloc baby hatcheries are... <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> Now that would be a sight to see. I think BS should add that to AMoL with maybe Mat leading a small group through a Trolloc hatchery before meeting up at SG... Anyway, just thought i would throw that in.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;We'll dance all night while the moon runs free,<br />and dandle the lasses upon our knee,<br />and then you'll ride along with me,<br />to dance with Jak o' the Shadows.&quot;<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2008-07-24 09:20:52
subject: <b>Interesting</b>
body:
It's been a long time since I've read the books, but does it say anywhere that the Trollocs actually have to eat?  If I recall, they were created from a Hybrid Genetics program aided by the OP.(I'm pretty sure that farm animals and human stock weren't meant to inter-breed.)  What if this artificial combination allowed for trolloc survival through a link to the OP?  What if the only reason they eat is for the pleasure.  Instead of bread, water, meat, and veggies, could they survive on the OP, raping, killing, and pillaging?  <br /><br />I'm probablly going to be proved wrong, but I've always wondered about this topic.  <br /><br />Flame away! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br />


created: 2008-07-29 22:20:16
subject: <b>wait a second</b>
body:
i see 2 things that you MIGHT! have wrong....<br />1 the math (i always thought math was evil <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" /> so i never trust it <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />)<br />2 if the DO can control reality like TAR then why can't he-she-it? (does it ever really say what gender they are it's always assumed male as far as i know that brings up the question of if the DO is Male then is the Creator Female?)just make a couple hundred mill. shadowspawn appear?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I may be crazy but im still more---- OHH SHINY PENNY!<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Fear the ninja smiley<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ninja.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />ohhh pretty fire..Most not touch....OUCH IT BURNS!<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2008-07-31 22:53:03
subject: <b>Trollocs must eat</b>
body:
Just read Robert Jordans World of Wheel of Time and you will see that they need to eat. But they are omnivorous.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;We'll dance all night while the moon runs free,<br />and dandle the lasses upon our knee,<br />and then you'll ride along with me,<br />to dance with Jak o' the Shadows.&quot;<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2008-08-06 20:26:27
subject: <b>Nice theory</b>
body:
Its really interesting i never thoughtabout how there can be such a large trolloc population...especially when you think about the food &quot;shortages&quot; throughout most (all?) the books.


created: 2008-08-07 22:50:43
subject: <b>hmm</b>
body:
in response to glaur_dm, Ishy went to sahara (sp?) well it is the land beyond the waste, yes they are horrible trades but thats not a problem with a forsaken...We know they have been there.<br /><br />Another idea is the isles of madmen...Now this idea is harder to swallow because its basically not really mentioned in the books and that would just be bad as far as writing is concerned...


created: 2008-09-07 20:58:03
subject: <b>Not enough time</b>
body:
I love it; very well done, but I don't think there is enough time in one book for all the necessary steps there.  Even a 2500 page one.<br /><br />Also, how far east does the Blight extend?  I know it is still there north of the Waste, but does it go farther?  North of Shara?  For all we know, there could be huge trolloc colonies and Sharan slave-camps working to support the Westland tribes.  I agree that's far-fetched and bordering on ludicrous, but do we really know?<br /><br />Excellent work, and nothing specifically wrong, but I still don't think it's plausible.


created: 2008-09-25 14:32:55
subject: <b>WOO! I'm First!</b>
body:
Wow, never had this happen before, excuse me while I bask in the radiance of being number one for a moment...<br /><br />Okay I'm done. Personally, I think you're on to something, and I think that with a little more research, and evidence, you could have a solid theory on your hands. Keep it up!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Of course you should fight fire with fire! You should fight EVERYTHING with fire!<br /><br />-Al'Gai, the Son of Battle<br />A.K.A. Anaro Ravenclaw,<br />Technomancer for the next Millenium <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/borg.gif" border="0" /><br />Revenant Bounty Hunter Extroidinaire <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2008-09-25 17:53:15
subject: <b>My thoughts ...</b>
body:
First of all, the Ajahs don't choose their members, Aes Sedai choose the Ajah they want to belong to.  And are NEVER refused, according to RJ.<br /><br />So, any Ajah / OP_Strength pattern would have to be a result of stonger AS gravitating to particular Ajahs, and/or weaker AS gravitating to particular Ajahs.<br /><br />That makes sense, actually.  Consider Whites, Browns, and Grays.  Their respective areas of study / expertise don't (in theory) even require the <i>ability</i> to channel, much less any sort of strength.  That's not true of Reds, Greens, Yellows, and even Blues (it would be tough to be a weak Blue, I think).  Not only does being a member of those Ajahs require the ability to channel, but the stronger one is, the more proficient one can be as a member of those 4 Ajahs (generally).<br /><br />So, it makes sense for the stronger AS to choose Ajahs where their strength matters.  And, therefore, for the White, Brown, and Gray Ajahs to comprise less-than-average strength channelers.  <br /><br />Of course, there are always exceptions.  Someone who is very interested in logic, history, or mediation might choose White, Brown, or Gray regardless of how strong she is.  Similarly, a very weak channeler might really want to be a Yellow, say, because of what they do. But as I said, in general I think it makes sense for the stronger-than-average channelers to choose Ajahs where they can put that strength to good use.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Rise and fall, turn the Wheel,<br />'cause all life is<br />Is really just a circle.&quot;<br /><br />-BHT&amp;tM</font><p></p>


created: 2008-09-25 19:48:01
subject: <b>The Blue...</b>
body:
..I think the Blue is particularly interesting, because they do seem to have a lot of very strong channelers there. Lelaine, Moiraine and Siuan were the stringest in the Tower for thirty years, but let's not forget Sheriam, Leane, Cetalia (head of the Blue Eyes and Ears in NS) and Merean (mistress of novices under Tamra). And below that are Anaiya, Maigan and Faolain. All very strong for such a small Ajah!<br /><br />It reinforces the idea that the blue is seen as a 'leadership' Ajah and many Amyrlins have been Blue. In NS, it is speled out that the Blue Ajah makes full use of the strengths of its members. Maybe they are vetted as Accepted as suitable material for the 'Blue Ajah Program' and their strengths are developed once they pass the test for the shawl.<br /><br />All the other very strong channelers seem to be Green Ajah, with a few reserved for the alternative goal of the reds in capturing male channelers.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="blue"><img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /> <b>PROUDLY CELEBRATING 10 YEARS OF WOTMANIA!</b></font> <img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /><br /><br /><font color="purple"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <b>FAQ and WoT Admin</b></font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><font color="gray"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> <b>Part-time Philosopher of the Wheel</b> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /></font></font><p><a href="/wotmessageboard2showmessage.asp?MessageID=107993" target="_blank">New WoT quizzes!</a></p><p></p>


created: 2008-09-30 04:48:17
subject: <b>Of choosing</b>
body:
While it is true that an Aes Sedai chooses Ajah, I think we are forgetting that Ajahs seem to influence that choice to a very large degree. The Ajahs are very good at making people do the &quot;right&quot; thing after all.<br /><br />There are several instances were Aes Sedai reflect over their own and the path of Accepted, i.e. this girl seemed to be cut out for this Ajah but somewhere she got onto another path.<br />In many ways I think by the time one chooses Ajah the Ajah has made sure you will fit the group. It won't work all the time, there are one or two Reds for example that should probably have been Greens, was it Pevara(?) that chose Red to be able to hunt Dark Friends.<br />But in most cases the Ajahs seem to steer the Accepted and Aes Sedai into roles they are naturally inclined to fit in. And they probably don't even realise they are doing it in all cases.


created: 2008-10-01 01:19:58
subject: <b>Um</b>
body:
I object to this being accepted as a theory. If this sort of thing is allowed then the standard of theories on the theory post is going to plummet within a few theories.<br /><br />I mean no disrespect to the poster, but there is absolutely NO evidence for this theory. It's just a collection of ideas without a single reference to the series, or anything at all to back it up. Now it is going to be shelved in with the OP category, where there are some theories which took a long time to research and are actually based on something.<br /><br />At most, this belongs on the wotboard as a trivial discussion about whether some ajahs are stronger than others. It is certainly not worthy of the theory post.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">A One Power researcher<br />Defender of Lanfear<br />Grand Ninja-Nae'blis to be feared <br />Original Warder to Isa <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br />New Warder to Nossie <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />Toy to Seriana <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/winky.gif" border="0" /><br />Mystified by a Fan <br />Bonded Phelix - I was young, it happened so fast.</font><p></p>


created: 2008-10-01 06:40:14
subject: <b>I think I agree with Sidious</b>
body:
That 'theory' is lacking in any real depth or reference to the series. It would be okay for a board discussion but it has no real place here<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;I look pretty young, but I'm just back dated&quot; The Who</font><p><a href="http://www.myspace.com/jefflewisband" target="_blank">My New Favourite Music Person</a></p><p></p>


created: 2008-10-01 14:00:12
subject: <b>WE have very little to go on...</b>
body:
What we know about strengths is restricted to one generation. We don't know how different things were before. Myelin, for example, was a White sister, yet one of the strongest in the Tower. Same goes for Romanda and Nynaeve in the Yellow.<br />But one fact is indeed interesting. There does seem to be a heavy concentration of strong AS in the Blue. Apart from those M2K mentioned, we must also include Eadyth (since neither Mo nor Siuan comment on her having to bend to them if she weren't Ajah Head), Tamra and Gitara. The last two are assumptions, but it seems clear, given Romanda's rivalry with Tamra, that they would have been close in strength.


created: 2008-10-01 14:13:48
subject: <b>Eadyth...</b>
body:
At the time the girls were far from full strength, so they wouldn't comment on Eadyth's Ajah Head status unless Eadyth was average or weak. If anything, there would be something like how many years it would take before they matched her, as with Cetalia(?)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Mind the sword. Mind the people watch. Mind the enemy. Too many minds. No mind.&quot; - Nobutada in The Last Samurai<br /><br />&quot;I wouldn't want to be killed by a starfish&quot; - zoology lecturer</font><p></p>


