# w_comment

created: 2006-06-25 19:26:33
subject: <b>First post in awhile on this thread...</b>
body:
But there ARE Tinker AS. Read NS... brief mention of a Tinker Accepted I believe.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Egwene must die.<br />Rand Al'Thor will face her wrath...<br />And laugh in her face!</font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-03 19:53:34
subject: <b>First post!!! hahahahaha...</b>
body:
Yeah, anyway.  Nice addition, el' poster.  I am not sure that demandred is norry but I cannot believe that it could be discounted so easily.  Your logic-flow here gives further evidence to an already great theory.  Good job!<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" />  &quot;Until Nynaeve quits yankin' that braid,<br />     May you find water and shade.&quot;  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" />  Vote Logain for M'Hael


created: 2002-01-03 22:41:15
subject: <b>Uum...</b>
body:
Using Dumai's Wells to back up 'norry-dred' (sounds a bit like Noddy) is not very reliable. Within the theory you mention that Sammael says 'probably' to Demandred being involved. We know that they've been working together, but there's no evidence pointing to Dem's involvement at Dum's Wells. Close, but not cigar.<br /><br />BTW: Norry-dred _is_ better than Taimendred, Basheredred and Dobraindead, but the competition isn't all that hot....<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Jeremias <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sleepy.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-03 23:51:33
subject: <b>a few comments</b>
body:
how did Demandred have access to the Aiel who attacked Demira? He hasn't had any dealings with them as far as we know. Sammael would be a far more likely suspect. The fact that Norry has access to Andor is irrelevant - Aiel attacked the Aes Sedai, not Andorans. And what about the Aiel calling the Aes Sedai witches? Why would Demandred make them say that?<br /><br />Also, Semirhage definitely has no part here, and Mesaana and Demandred did not cooperate. From Demandred's PoV in book 9, &quot;Even so, he wished Semirhage or Mesaana were present. Their alliance was delicate - a simple agreement that they would not turn on one another until the others had been eliminated&quot;.<br /><br />Also, the attack on Demira was not essential for Mesaana's plan to get into action. The Tower Aes Sedai could have captured him at any time at all. In fact the others didn't know what Mesaana was up to.


created: 2002-01-04 12:00:05
subject: <b>My thoughts</b>
body:
Yeah, I posted something like this (I want credit <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angry.gif" border="0" /> !!- j/k <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />)under the original theory about Norry being Taim which came up a few weeks ago, it seems to make sense if you think about it.<br />KEnco- In order to launch the attack, Demandred-as-Norry didn't have to have access to anyone, he just had to be in Caemlyn. The &quot;Aiel&quot; who attacked Demira Sedai weren't real Aiel, so they could have been basically any Darkfriend lackies who Norry-dred found in Caemlyn; however, having a Forsaken actually based in Caemlyn would make it a lot more likely that he was responsible for the attack. And if Demandred had been in Caemlyn long enough, he would have known the sentiment of some people towards Aes Sedai, so that's why he might have told his attackers to say witches. <br />And I disagree, the attack on Demira WAS essential. The Tower Aes Sedai never had as much of an opportunity to capture Rand as they did after the attack on Demira. Before that point, Rand had been Travelling back and forth between Caemlyn (where the rebel AS were) and Cairhien (where the Tower AS were), staying mostly in Caemlyn. After the attack, he completely left Caemlyn and moved to Cairhien, giving the Tower embassy more time to plot their trap. Also, he had been inclined to trust the rebels more than the group from the Tower, because of what Egwene had been saying and because of the suspicious letters from Elaida and Alviarin. After Demira was attacked and Merana's group - or Kiruna and Bera's group, really, by then - confronted Rand, he became angry at them and became more inclined to trust the Tower Aes Sedai. Otherwise he probably would never have let down his guard with them enough for the kidnapping to occur.<br />I'm still not 100% convinced that Norry is Demandred, but its a really good theory, and this argument is a good explanation for Demandred's &quot;Have I not done well, Great Lord&quot; remark at the end of LoC, certainly a better explanation than most of the other Demandred theories. Dobraine, Bashere, or even Taim only had the chance to participate in a battle that would have happened with or without them; Norry might have caused it in the first place.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Doesine<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" />Aes Sedai of the Yellow Ajah <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />intermittent lurker<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-04 13:44:16
subject: <b>what about Fain?</b>
body:
the Children of the Light are the ones who most frequently use &quot;witches&quot; to refer to Aes Sedai, and the one who had renegade Whitecloaks under his control since TSR was Fain...he has as much motive as any Forsaken to try and isolate Rand<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Da Mook<br /><br /><br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/220.gif" /><br /><br /><br /><i>&quot;You're not cute, you're a silver-fox sex god is what you are.&quot;  LiterateDog to me, of course<br /><br />&quot;snoop elsewhere&quot; -Pevara</i> <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-05 02:09:43
subject: <b>Nifty, Highly Nifty</b>
body:
Kenco in your own post you gave the evidence to counter one of your points. You brought the question of how Demandred got some Aiel to do his dirty work, then pointed out a statement that makes them less likely to have been actual Aiel. If they had been Aiel Dark Friends then they wouldn't have used a phrase like that. As I recall the physical descriptions of the assailants didn't match up either.<br /><br />   Good theory, but I don't see it as a great deal of proof that Demandred is Norry. Sending some agents into Caemlyn would have been enough. Having them sent through a proxy like say Mazrim Taim would also account for some of Taims &quot;so called Aiel&quot; comments (I recall that at least one of them was made after the attack on Demira). Fain is just as likely a culprit as anyone.<br /><br />   By the way If the evidence of Semirhage being involved is from Sammaels point of view then it can be easily explained. He knows that Semi, Mesaa, and Deman work together, so just assumed they did on this. Also the fact that by this point the Seanchan were taking over the coast (due to High Lady Turak, who would most likely be one of Semirhages proxies if she is indeed Anath) that gave Rand less places to run, and kept the Seanchan from getting involved in the Dumai Wells situation.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-06 08:39:24
subject: <b>A few more comments</b>
body:
Firstly, the attack was VITAL to Mesaana&#180;s plans. It had to be Aiel because the only group which was doubtlessly connected to Rand were the Aiel, especially at this time. But I think that those Aiel were provided by Semiraghe and thus Shaido. No non-Aiel could distinguish. This brings in Demandred. I&#180;m not sure about Normandred, but I agree that this theory brings further evidence. And I&#180;ve got some more. We all know that it&#180;s possible to invert weaves and that the Chosen know to mask their ability to channel unless the hold the OP. So no Asha&#180;man and no Rand could sense the ability in Norry. Additionally the Asha&#180;man have no permission to enter Caemlyn which of course protects Demandred against protection. And I recall another point: When Nyn and Elayne &quot;work&quot; on Moggy, she hints at a way for women to sense saidin. Could that be a hint at uncovering Demandred in some way?<br />Last little point to Savaunt: It&#180;s Suroth, not Turak. He was killed by Rand in a swordfight at Falme.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gimli.gif" border="0" /> Llaydwhonn Gaidin <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gimli.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> The disguised Asha&#180;man <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> Still unbonded <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/r2d2.gif" border="0" /> Dedicated to the Black Ajah <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/r2d2.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-06 17:21:25
subject: <b>Should be detection...</b>
body:
...not protection...too much beer last night ;-)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gimli.gif" border="0" /> Llaydwhonn Gaidin <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gimli.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> The disguised Asha&#180;man <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> Still unbonded <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/r2d2.gif" border="0" /> Dedicated to the Black Ajah <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/r2d2.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-07 15:32:43
subject: <b>I'm not usually the guy with the pin going around poking holes...</b>
body:
...but *poke*  *poke*    (not a flame, just my thoughts)<br /><br />I have a hard time with this theory, only because it seems almost crystal clear to me that Semirhage is Tuon's TruthSayer.  So in regards to your triad (Demandred, Messana, and Semirhage) working together to facilitated the Dumai's Well altercation, it would seem that one of the three elements was notably missing.  (Semirhage)   Another strike, in my mind, against Norry as Demandred is his close proximity to Elayne and the various other 'high profile targets' that reside at one time or another in Camelyn.  Clearly the 'hands off' rule that applies to Al'Thor does not extend to protect the others.  To minimize the size of Rand's support group, Demandred would (simply because it's good strategy) slowly and methodically slay them when opportunity presented itself. (As Norry has stood in private, and sometimes open, areas with Elayne and others and has done nothing, this should be proof of his non-Demandred-ness)  **I made that word up, can you tell?** Also, to have a Forsaken in such a servile position as Norry's doesn't seem to fit the bill as per the Forsaken's egos and pride.   Also with Hanlon and Shiane actively working on their plot against Elayne, I can't see that Demandred (a rather well informed, and so far wise enough to stay elusive, character) would allow himself to be present or 'in the mix' with an activity like the assassination/capture/torturing of Elayne.  (He would be in contact with the DF communication networks in Camelyn, and therefore would know about the plot and the presence of the two entrusted with performing it.)   I can't at this moment document my alternate theory, I'd get fired for wasting the time it would take me to finish that novella, but I can say that while the posters observations are impressive and astute, they are not the makings of what I believe to be the truth. <br /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-01-09 21:24:15
subject: <b>But</b>
body:
Norry's position as a servant doesn't necessarily rule out the possibility of him being a Forsaken. Some of the Forsaken are willing to accept things against their nature for the sake of disguise. Remember Lanfear as Keille? More than that, Demandred would probably recognize the hidden power of being First Clerk. He might also have observed the fact that all the Forsaken who became direct rulers of a country got killed...<br />And about killing people, I don't think that's true, it would be much more effective for him to have influence over people close to Rand than to just kill them and blow his cover (Rand would realize that something was wrong in Caemlyn, and Demandred's position would be comprimised). <br />About Semirhage missing - perhaps she wasn't involved in that particular plan, but there's no reason why Demandred couldn't have been doing a solo operation trying to create the Dumai's Wells mess.<br />Wow, for someone who isn't even convinced about this theory I find myself defending it a lot<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Doesine<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" />Aes Sedai of the Yellow Ajah <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />intermittent lurker<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-03 19:57:23
subject: <b>First post 2x in a row...what are the odds?&#191;?</b>
body:
Ummm...I really don't think so, but that's just my opinion.  Sometimes you gotta think out of the box, and you've done well there.  Good theory, even though I don't believe it to be true.  Heck, I've posted theories I didn't believe were true several times just to see something new up there...anyway, good job!<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" />  &quot;Until Nynaeve quits yankin' that braid,<br />     May you find water and shade.&quot;  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" />  Vote Logain for M'Hael<br />


created: 2002-01-03 23:14:08
subject: <b>I have a very bad feeling about this...</b>
body:
Over the past several books I have gotten the distinct impression that Rand is going to be betrayed by someone close to him. <br /><br />I think this theory has serious problems with it, but as Dahara mentioned over in the FAQ, the combination of L and M could be the whole Luc/Isam blending. The thing is, as I recall Slayer was usally one or the other, not a mix of both, but I may have missed something. A point here: can anyone recall what color Lanfear's hair was? Another thing: if Cyndane is Lanfear in Moirane's body, or some combination of both, Lanfear would &quot;strain for every inch of height.&quot; Lanfear is quite proud, whereas Moiraine was always quite serene in her shortness. Lanfear would react exactly as Cyndane is described as acting. <br /><br />My bad feeling is based on the idea of impending treachery. I toyed with the idea of the Aiel darkfriends, or with Normandred, but I couldn't think of anyone close enough to Rand to betray him in the way I anticipated. Now, if Moiraine has been turned to evil, who would fit the bill for that betrayal more perfectly? <br /><br />I don't have much reason to anticipate this betrayal, but dramatically the potential is vast. One reason to support the whole L+M idea is the idea of symmetry: Slayer was a combination of two men -- perhaps now it's time to have a combination of two women. <br /><br />Just think about it. Moiraine miraculously returns from the dead, Rand welcomes her with open arms (taking her name off his list, which would have who knows what effect on him), she rejoins him as principle advisor (duelling with Cadsuane all the way, of course), and on the day of Tarmon Gai'don she calmly turns around and stabs him in the back. <br /><br />All great stories have betrayals.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I may be love's bitch, but at least I'm man enough to admit it. -- Spike</font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-04 02:05:30
subject: <b>She has black hair</b>
body:
she has dark hair, TSR paperback p 180 &quot; He spun, gaping at the young woman standing by the door, fair of skin and dark if hair and eye&quot;<br /><br />page 61 of the BWB states that Lanfear was &quot;tall and lithe with pale skin and flowing midnight tresses...&quot;<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> Tweak <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Four17 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> Tai'Shan an Dovienya <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gandalf.gif" border="0" /> True Lord of Luck <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gandalf.gif" border="0" /> <br />Deviant's Older (but smaller) Brother</font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-04 03:21:49
subject: <b>No</b>
body:
I dont think that Moiraine and Lanfear are somewow fused.  Robert Jordan has spent too much time intricately weaving throughout the books key information about the Eillfin and Aillfin, please escuse the misspellings but it's late and i think you get the idea.  About their world, their relation to humans, and how to get back and forth from their realm to the real world to simply leave it hanging without becoming important.  I think it's one of his finer threads in the tail.  He has always left hints such as Mat's knowledge of Snakes and Foxes, which is the way in which to beat them so told by Birgette to Perrien in the Wolf dream.  You have the Tower of Gingie which is a gateway of some sort and has been referenced several times, sorry but I'll make sure to later post a thread with all teh page numbers, it really helps.  Moiraine is in the world again, though I'm not sure under what disguise or physical body.  I will throw the idea out there that perhaps she is not totally in the real world and some part of her is still in the other, I dont know.  Anyway, lot's of ideas, hope this gives something for everyone to chew on.


created: 2002-01-04 08:13:49
subject: <b>The only</b>
body:
reason they think she's from this Age is that they don't recognise her strength in the power. Not because she's been exhibiting any characteristics from this age as she surely would if she was split as Isam/Luc are.<br /><br />I still believe the key to why Lanfear isn't as strong as she was lies in this statementin Winter's Heart, With The Choedan Kal:<br /><br />&quot;She was stronger than Cyndane had been before the Aelfinn and the Eelfinn held her! That was impossible; no woman could (could is emphasised in italics in the books) be stronger. She must have an angreal, too.&quot;<br /><br />Now clearly we are meant to simply put this down to Lanfear always being overly proud of her abilities and not being able to believe that any woman could match her, but I think Jordan is tricking us. The emphasis on could really clinches it for me, I don't know how Lanfear did it, whether through a ter'angreal or a gift from the Great Lord or what, but I believe she was as maxed out with the power as a woman can be without an angreal. Ever since the Finns held her though and she died (clearly she must have, she has a new body), she's lost this ability.


created: 2002-01-04 10:08:39
subject: <b>but the Finns...</b>
body:
always exact a price, yes? plus, Meirin was a shadowsouled. It stands to reason that Cyndane is Lanfear, just hindered by her near death through the ter'angreal and her imprisonment by the Finn...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Can you see the line where the water ends?<br />Draws itself off into oblivion...</font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-04 12:23:55
subject: <b>No way</b>
body:
First of all, Moiraine is inherently good, and Lanfear is inherently evil. I can't really see them being able to function in one body together, at all, unless one of them was completely destroyed/dominated the other's presence. That's impossible because Moiraine has to be there, to save Rand (Min's viewing) and she can't if her will has been destroyed by Lanfear. Plus, yes Lanfear is stronger than Moiraine in the Power, but a mental battle between their two personas would have nothing to do with strength in the Power, so if the two of them were thrown together in one body, there's no  reason that Lanfear would dominate (and clearly, Lanfear is in control of Cyndane - see her PoV in the last chapter of WH).<br />Second, there's the part about Thom rescuing Moiraine. That still has to happen, and there's probably nothing Thom can do for Moiraine if she's stuck in a body with one of the Forsaken. Much more likely that he pulls her out of an Aelfinn prison.<br />And third, if Lanfear and Moiraine got mixed together, where does Cyndane come from? She has light hair; both Lanfear and Moiraine had dark hair, and she doesn't seem to bear much resemblance to Lanfear before falling through the doorway, so that pretty much eliminates the idea of a physical mix between the two women.<br />The other Forsaken simply took it for granted that Cyndane was from the current Age because they didn't recognize her, and they assumed that they would recognize anyone from the AoL. That doesn't necessarily mean they were right; if there's one thing you can count on in WoT, it's that what people are thinking isn't always true.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Doesine<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" />Aes Sedai of the Yellow Ajah <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />intermittent lurker<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-04 13:22:52
subject: <b>Moiraine is elsewhere</b>
body:
I posted a theory about the possible location of Moiraine (didn't get posted, so make of that what you will).  But, to sum up, at the beginning of WH, Tuon is reviewing her damane, and is particularly pleased with her newest one -- a former Aes Sedai who is quite powerful.  We DO know that Moiraine was powerful (for a standard Aes Sedai), and as I recall she has a 'heart-shaped face' that Moiraine also used to have. <br /><br />Moiraine has some practice in bowing to necessity and subjugating herself to do what needs to be done, and I'm betting she would think that being a servant of the DotNM would be seen as such.  Plus, as a damane, she is beneath Semirhage's notice.   If Moiraine was bright enough to recognize Asmodean, then she's likely bright enough to recognize Semirhage. <br /><br />Lastly, I'm going on Jordan's habit of giving too much information for people who aren't inconsequential.  Too much was made of that new damane for her not to be a factor.<br /><br />Yes, I realize this is circumstantial, but anything about Moiraine now is.<br /><br />The Finn definitely seem capricious and a tad malicious in their placement of people who return, and also seem to be open to influence.<br /><br />The DO could readily have slain Lanfear for her trouble, as he is the only one we know who can give life back.  Than he had to find a new body for Cyndane.


created: 2002-01-04 13:54:22
subject: <b>this theory has been dismissed so many times on the message board...</b>
body:
that I wonder why it made the cut!  The <b> only </b> thing Cyndane and Moiraine have in common is they are both short.  Moiraine (and Lanfear) both had dark hair...Cyndane is blonde to the point of silver....and while both Moiraine and especially Lanfear are beautiful, neither are mentioned as having Cyndane's most &quot;prominent&quot; attributes... <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br />as for Tuon's short <i>damane</i>, her real name is given in WH, and it ain't Moiraine...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Da Mook<br /><br /><br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/220.gif" /><br /><br /><br /><i>&quot;You're not cute, you're a silver-fox sex god is what you are.&quot;  LiterateDog to me, of course<br /><br />&quot;snoop elsewhere&quot; -Pevara</i> <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-04 14:45:20
subject: <b>'Real' Names</b>
body:
Nor is Cyndane Lanfear's 'real name'<br />Nor either of the 'gers.<br />Or any of the names that are given to damane their 'real' name.<br /><br />And -every- single damane we've with any sort of POV has been given a different name.


created: 2002-01-04 16:11:21
subject: <b>ummmm.....</b>
body:
her real name as in her name as an Aes Sedai....I don't have the book in front of me, but it was one of the other captured sisters that identifies her....what that has to do with Cyndane or assigned damane names is kinda irrelevant<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Da Mook<br /><br /><br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/220.gif" /><br /><br /><br /><i>&quot;You're not cute, you're a silver-fox sex god is what you are.&quot;  LiterateDog to me, of course<br /><br />&quot;snoop elsewhere&quot; -Pevara</i> <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-04 17:05:34
subject: <b>The captured Aes Sedai's real name...</b>
body:
was Sheraine Caminelle. Winter's Heart, chapter 19, 'Three Women', page 403. Teslyn, talking to Mat, identified her.<br />End of argument on that subject.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Doesine<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" />Aes Sedai of the Yellow Ajah <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />intermittent lurker<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-05 03:09:28
subject: <b>Naww</b>
body:
The closest to this theory that I could see as plausible would be if The finns had switched bodies on Moiraine and Lanfear, and that Shaitan had then altered Cyndanes body further. That still leaves too many things unaccounted for. Chief among them for either theory would be how Lanfear got out of their realm.<br /><br />   I have a theory that hasn't been posted yet that may have a potential answer to that. Until it gets put up I won't say anything.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-06 08:23:51
subject: <b>The reason...</b>
body:
...why Cyndane is weaker than Lanfear is punishment by the Great Lord for failing him!! Remember, she helped Rand turning Asmo and talked of challenging the Dark One, even the Creator <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gimli.gif" border="0" /> Llaydwhonn Gaidin <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gimli.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> The disguised Asha&#180;man <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> Still unbonded <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/r2d2.gif" border="0" /> Dedicated to the Black Ajah <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/r2d2.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-06 22:56:42
subject: <b>Why Cyndane's Weaker, maybe...</b>
body:
Well let's look at another approach to why Cyndane is Lanfear and why she's weaker than she was when the Finn's held her.<br /><br />As you all might recall, Moiraine clawed the angreal Lanfear was using away from her before/while she was pushing her through the ter'angreal doorway.  If Moiraine's description of Lanfear &quot;blazing like the sun&quot; is any indication that Lanfear was using the angreal then it's very possible that she had severed herself once the angreal was taken away from her, especially if she was still channeling through it.<br /><br />Now we fastforward a bit to Salidar.  Nynaeve has just discovered how to heal severing, and who do we have still under her care?  That's right folks, that annoying spider, Moghedien!!  Now after Nynaeve heals Siuan and Leane there's hardly any talk of anything BUT the miraculous healing by every Yellow Sister in the camp.  Moghedien could have easily picked up a few pointers here and there, enough anyways to get a general idea of what she would need to do.<br /><br />If ya fastforward a wee bit more, you find that both Moghedien and Cyndane are under Moridin's control.  So if Lanfear is in fact Cyndane, and she had been stilled it wouldn't take too long before Moghedien could have healed her, which would explain why she's much less power then she previously had been.<br /><br />Perhaps Moridin even healed her, which could explain why she didn't lose quite as much strength as she had previously, perhaps it takes both a man and a woman to fully heal severing like it may take both saidin and saidar to patch up the bore.<br /><br />Sorry for the jumpin' at the end kinda rushed right now.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sleepy.gif" border="0" />Ramblin' Rurouni<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sleepy.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> Favorite Candle of the Dragon <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-01-07 07:29:33
subject: <b>I like that idea</b>
body:
Moghedien Healing Cyndane would be cool. It probably was the Dark One, but I like that idea better <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="blue"><img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /> <b>PROUDLY CELEBRATING 10 YEARS OF WOTMANIA!</b></font> <img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /><br /><br /><font color="purple"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <b>FAQ and WoT Admin</b></font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><font color="gray"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> <b>Part-time Philosopher of the Wheel</b> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /></font></font><p><a href="/wotmessageboard2showmessage.asp?MessageID=107993" target="_blank">New WoT quizzes!</a></p><p></p>


created: 2002-01-07 09:51:07
subject: <b>It doesn't really make sense...</b>
body:
...as Lanfear was killed (clearly, as she has a new body), so even if she was stilled beforehand, she should have been reborn with the same strength as before.<br /><br />Besides, it just doesn't add up. When Suian is healed by a woman (Nynaeve of course), she can't lift Bryne, even though she used to be able to lift 3 times her own weight. From that we can see that she has lost AT LEAST 1/3 of her strength in the power, probably quite a bit more looking at how far they fall down the order of Aes Sedai. However, Cyndane is still noticably stronger than Graendal who herself is among the strongest female channelers ever I suspect, could Lanfear really have lost a 1/3 of her strength, perhaps more, and still be so strong? She'd have had to be ridiculously strong to begin with. Don't forget also that Suian was healed by Nynaeve who by all accounts is a very good healer, whereas I don't think seen any indication that Moghedien can heal at all, let alone to that degree. So I don't think a woman did it.<br /><br />Then there is Moridin. Perhaps it is his doing (through the True Power), but I don't see how he could have healed her from being stilled without returning her to maximum strength.


created: 2002-01-09 08:08:27
subject: <b>Not sure About Moggy Healing</b>
body:
Didn't we see Moghedien get introduced to Cyndane and sense the ability to channel in her somewhere in POD? (or am I just dazed &amp; confused since New Year?)<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Toon Army:- The Creators choice<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/thom.gif" border="0" /> = Sir Bobby Robson IS the Creator<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/thom.gif" border="0" /> = <br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-26 09:52:44
subject: <b>Well it isn't that unlikely I suppose.</b>
body:
Say both Lanfear and Moiraine died falling through that twisted doorway into finn-land and then maybe Moiraine and Lanfear got somehow linked in some way. I suppose they would have to make bargains like Mat in order to get out and maybe that went wrong, or those fox people showed some twisted sense of humour, or maybe moiraine did something incredably smart and managed to attach herself to Lanfear.<br /><br />Anyway what if the dark one brings Lanfear back to life and into a new body and somehow Moiraine is brought back with her, powerless but still arround. Maybe the only thing that has to happen then is to crush the cour'souvra rendering Lanfear powerless, accidentally bringing Moiraine back and in full control of Cyndane's body.<br /><br />Oke it is a bit farfetched and it doesn't explain at all what kind of bargains were made, and not really why Cyndane is less powerful too. It is also simply possible that she had to give up part of her power in the bargain made. Anyway it could be the presence of Moiraine combined with the ability to channel being linked to the soul.<br /><br />I doubt the dark one had anything to do with the lesser power of Lanfear though, since she clearly states that she it happened during her stay in finn-land. I also doubt the dark one would bring up Moiraine back into another body and I don't think anyone but the dark one can do tricks like that. And I think we all agree she will come back somehow. <br /><br />I just can't see Moiraine staying away from Rand if she still had her own body, except if she is somehow still in Finn-land (in the tower of Ghenji maybe) waiting to be rescued. After all Mat only got freed cause the third request he had was to get away from those sneaky fox people. Maybe Moiraine didn't ask to get out.


created: 2002-01-26 10:05:04
subject:
<b>Addition, sorry <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /></b>

body:
The idea of Lanfear being healed from severing seems very unlikely. Moghedien has no talent for healing especially not for something so complex. Moridin probably doesn't even know how to make those waves and who says Lanfear is severed at all.<br /><br />And also the arguments about Cyndane not resembling Moiraine or Lanfear seem quite meaningless to me. I mean a new body is a new body.


created: 2002-04-18 21:53:42
subject: <b>Lanfear = Moiraine and Moiraine = Lanfear</b>
body:
I'm sorry for my bad english but I hope you understand what I'm trying to say.<br /><br />From the start, before L and M feel true the doorway and into the Eelfinn/Aelfinn land, M had the upper hand, while L didnt know that this was about to happend.<br /><br />L and M didnt die, when they went true the doorway. they got connected... maybe like Isam/luc but the thing is.. they still made there bargin/bargins with the Eelfinn/Aelfinn..<br /><br />did they make one bargin as one person (L/M connected), or did they make 2 bargins, one for L and one for M.. but really that dosent matter...<br /><br />they were connected as one in the Eelfinn/Aelfinn land, and after there bargins..<br /><br />L was released, and M was still trapped..<br /><br />but due to they were connected, the Eelfinn/Aelfinn  didnt know who was what when they split them again.<br /> <br />what we know now is that C is short as M was, and she lacks strength in power.. maybe the thing with lack of power was a mixup between L and M as for apperance or just cruel humor of the Eelfinn/Aelfinn.<br /><br />Anyway.. the question still remains, what happend to M, what does she look like after the splitup.. do she have L strenght in power, maybe she looks like L now, except some modifications, like blond hair or something.<br /><br />Were I'm going at with this is that I belive M looks very much like L did.. even if she have blond hair now, she still can dye it and look like Lanfear.. and that WILL be a huge advantage for Rand..<br /><br />like min's viewing, that she hadn't told him about a woman that was thought dead by every one (every one, forsakens also), and his success was connected with this woman.. that's maybe why Min didnt tell rand about her viewing.. seeing Lanfear helping Rand.. <br /><br />but one problem still remains, do you think someone will rescue M if she looks like L?, I can only think of 2 persons that Rand trust and can know about M new apperance and it's Thom and Min.. Min knows of her vision and Thom of the letter he was given by Rand.<br /><br />Hmm, it was meant like alittle post, and while I was writting (took me some time) it got larger and larger.. and this looks kinda like a theory.. but hell here it is, with all my bad english and stuff :/<br /><br />plz rip it apart


created: 2002-04-29 21:46:53
subject: <b>A switch in power?</b>
body:
If maybe Moiraine left something in her letter to Thom about being rescued...<br />then she wouldnt want to waste one of her three deals on that...<br />so, as one, anyway, she asked to switch powers with Lanfear.  That could explain Cydane's weakness...


created: 2002-06-19 23:23:50
subject: <b>Moiraine</b>
body:
Lanfear and Moiraine could not possibly have swapped strength in the power, Cyndane may have decreased in strength but not to Moiraine's level.  Moiraine is very strong for an Aes Sedai but she is nowhere near the strength of Egwene, let alone Nynaeve. Nynaeve is the same strengh as Moghedien but she in turn was not the stongest of the Forsaken, certainly not as strong as Graendal.<br /><br />


created: 2002-10-22 03:20:17
subject: <b>Why Cyndane?</b>
body:
Both Lanfear and Moiraine survived the destruction of the Doorway.  We know this from Cyndane's point of view (there would be no need for the Eelfinns to &quot;hold&quot; a dead person).  The Dark One sent Moridin to get her out.  For whatever reason, Moridin chose to go through TAR to get Lanfear out.  We know from Birgitte that it's almost impossible to get out once you enter that way.  Almost, but not completely impossible.  Moridin is Elan Morin Tedronai, the philosopher and thinker.  If anyone can do it, he can.  The only problem was he didn't enter physically, so he could not take Lanfear back physically.  He had to leave her body behind and take just her soul.  As a result, the Dark One had to give her a new body as soon as they got back.  The Dark One, for whatever reason, reduced her ability just a little.


created: 2004-08-29 14:23:11
subject: <b>My thought exactly!</b>
body:
There is little doubt that Moiraine will somehow affect events before all is done and over - as per Min's viewing, if nothing else. However, it has been 5 books by now, and no suitable candidate for her comeback has been spotted. But then if she is a component in Cyndane - then she has come back.<br />Why I think this is credible.<br />1. We know of 2 other examples where 2 personas have been integrated into one (Slayer and Fain). <br />2. When the pair were bargaining with the foxes, it's likely that both asked to be released unharmed and also to kill the other. The 'Finns complied to the extent they could.<br />3. Some have commented that there's no reason that Moiraine's personality should be the one to be supressed, but there is in fact a lack of symmetry in the joining. Lanfear contributes with the bond to the DO, thus the combo is a darkfriend. Also being mindtraped by the first and foremost darkfriend (Moridin) may have something to do with it.<br />4. Moiraine is now in a position to throw off the balance during the Last Battle by finally taking over (perhaps when the DO bond is somehow severed).


created: 2004-12-10 10:48:45
subject: <b>averaged not added</b>
body:
The idea isn't bad, but it doesn't seem to allow for the fact that Thom is expected to rescue Moiraine from the snakes and foxes, probably with the help of Mat.  However, the basic idea, that the snakes and foxes somehow affected Lanfear's ability does have some merit.  <br /><br />So maybe they were averaged.  This would account for Lanfear / Cyndane's not understanding that she no longer has the power she had, and would set up Moiraine to be a more effective force in the future.


created: 2005-08-27 04:10:11
subject: <b>I think this theory could have a lot of truth in it.</b>
body:
My intentions when I came here was to post the same theory only to find out that it was already posted. The one thing that makes me think it is very possible is the fact that Robert Jordan made a comment that in the Knife of Dreams we were gonna find out that something that happened in the past would be revealed and would cause us all to go: Gasp!! How Horrible!!!  I think what more horrible than seeing our good, courageous Moraine turned to the Dark? or fused with Lanfear into Cyndane's body?! I don't know about you but that surely would make me sad and tick me off at the same time. I think it's too coincidential that Lanfear and Moraine went together into that Sangreal. I have a feeling Mr. Jordan meant this sad news would make us go aghast. My humble opinion.


created: 2002-01-05 22:50:01
subject: <b>hm...</b>
body:
you seem to be implying that all those false dragons were Heroes of the wheel. Isn't that asking a bit too much?


created: 2002-01-06 00:26:40
subject: <b>And Artur?</b>
body:
My question is where is Artur Hawkwing's reincarnation or is it even possible he has one since not too long ago he was talking to our heroes at Falme.


created: 2002-01-06 01:25:17
subject: <b>Not heroes of the horn</b>
body:
At least the way I interpreted this theory is saying that these male channelers might be similar to, but not actually among the heroes of the Horn Of Valere. Like Rand they are people that get spun out for other reasons.<br /><br />   As for Hawkwing, well that's tricky. Right now it's not been addressed whether or not a person can be alive, and have their soul summoned by the Horn of Valere. This question is essential to the issue of whether or not Olver is Gaidal Cain.<br /><br />   My gut tells me that We've already seen all the major reincarnations or found out about them. I don't count forsaken brought back from death because that's resurrection and the two are different things. Any characters that once lived as influential figures like Guaire Almasan or Yuri Strong Bow will probably not be identified as such, or they would have already. Just my thoughts.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-06 07:18:05
subject: <b>Logain and Guaire</b>
body:
I agree with Lord Sauvant about them not necessarily being Heroes of the Horn. They could be resurrected souls of the Hundred Companions who helped LTT reseal the Bore. It would be reasonable to expect them to pop up for the Last Battle.<br /><br />I don't think that Guaire has been reborn as Logain. Firstly, Logain can see ta'veren and it's not said that Guaire ever had that ability. Guaire was also a brilliant general and possibly ta'veren himself. Where Amalasan is portrayed as a serious individual with deep-set eyes, Logain has nearly the opposite personality. <br /><br />But Logain could be someone else. He certainly has the trademarks of someone that was a great leader in a past life. Hope he kicks Taim's ass <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="blue"><img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /> <b>PROUDLY CELEBRATING 10 YEARS OF WOTMANIA!</b></font> <img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /><br /><br /><font color="purple"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <b>FAQ and WoT Admin</b></font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><font color="gray"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> <b>Part-time Philosopher of the Wheel</b> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /></font></font><p><a href="/wotmessageboard2showmessage.asp?MessageID=107993" target="_blank">New WoT quizzes!</a></p><p></p>


created: 2002-01-06 16:47:42
subject: <b>Just because</b>
body:
they're the same soul doesn't mean they'll have the same personality. It doesn't mean they'll have the same skills either. Look at the differences between Rand and LTT. LTT can draw, Rand can't. LTT apparently had no trouble in killing women (or at least having them die under his command), we've clearly seen how difficult this is for Rand. The only thing we know for certain is carried over is strength in the OP, I don't think there's any evidence that Talents are kept by the soul, although they may well be.<br /><br />There's a good chance I'm missing some vital clues here, but has it ever been proven one way or another whether a soul is either born once an Age or can be born as many times an Age as the Wheel requires? or can they not be born during a certain Age at all?


created: 2002-01-06 17:17:40
subject: <b>3 In a Boat...</b>
body:
...this throws up the big question how to define the duration of an age...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gimli.gif" border="0" /> Llaydwhonn Gaidin <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gimli.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> The disguised Asha&#180;man <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> Still unbonded <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/r2d2.gif" border="0" /> Dedicated to the Black Ajah <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/r2d2.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-06 17:26:55
subject: <b>True....</b>
body:
..but if they are as different as I say, then what proof is there that Logain is Guaire? The People of the Dragon could simply have been an emulation of Guaire, not proof that he is the same person. The prophecised glory could be anyone.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="blue"><img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /> <b>PROUDLY CELEBRATING 10 YEARS OF WOTMANIA!</b></font> <img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /><br /><br /><font color="purple"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <b>FAQ and WoT Admin</b></font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><font color="gray"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> <b>Part-time Philosopher of the Wheel</b> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /></font></font><p><a href="/wotmessageboard2showmessage.asp?MessageID=107993" target="_blank">New WoT quizzes!</a></p><p></p>


created: 2002-01-06 18:40:46
subject: <b>Ah, but I said...</b>
body:
First off, Moridin, I was a big fan of your Guaire amalasan is rand/LTT theory.  I thought it was very well thought out and could still be true.  <br /><br />One thing, I mentioned in the theory as to the guessing of which false dragon (or hundred companions, good add Moridin -never thought about that) was who now is pure speculation.  I was merely pointing out the likelyhood that this could happen.<br /><br />All souls are spun out over and over as they are needed, not just heroes of the horn.  Three in a boat, I don't remember the reference right now and it might take me a while to find it, but I'll put it on here for ya sometime soon, assuming I find it.  I know somebody has said at sometime that the wheel spins out souls over and over (reincarnation), but as to who, I cannot guess.  Anybody know?<br /><br />And no, mazrim taim (or anybody for that matter) does not have to be somebody reincarnated, I was just showing it could be.  And yes, Moridin, there is not enough evidence to show any real correlation to Logain as Guaire, again, I was speculating.  So...<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" />  &quot;Until Nynaeve quits yankin' that braid,<br />     May you find water and shade.&quot;  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" />  Vote Logain for M'Hael


created: 2002-01-06 18:45:31
subject: <b>Just popped in my head...</b>
body:
There were more than 13 forsaken in the AoL.  What if Mazrim Taim (assuming he's not demandred, boy I'm tired of this disclaimer and that he is evil) is someone reborn.  And that someone is one of the Forsaken killed in the AoL.  We don't know that they were balefired, we can only guess why the DO didn't reincarnate them...perhaps he couldn't?  <br /><br />Anyway, Taim could be one of the Forsaken that crossed over and was not trapped but killed and is now reborn...just popped in my head as soon as I hit the submit button.<br /><br />He could even be Beidomon (sp), the guy that helped Lanfear drill the Bore...now, wouldn't that make for an interesting twist?<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" />  &quot;Until Nynaeve quits yankin' that braid,<br />     May you find water and shade.&quot;  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" />  Vote Logain for M'Hael


created: 2002-01-06 19:10:28
subject: <b>That's good</b>
body:
that part about more channelers coming to light now that Rand is around is interesting. I get the feeling there hasn't been that many men who could even channel around til now and if what you say is true that means there is no set time for people to reincarnate or perhaps less importan people reincarnate more.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Emperor of Draco <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /> Lord Tiger VII <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> Reigning Animal Lord <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /> Hater of Imbeciles <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> Wise Guy <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />        lord_tiger_vii_@hotmail.com</font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-07 00:11:45
subject: <b>My interpritation</b>
body:
First, I am fairly sure that most of the hundred companions, if not all, ate tied to the Horn.<br /><br />My interpritation of the weavings of the wheel is that everyone keeps being reborn over and over, from norman people to the Heroes of the Horn.  The only differance is that the Heroes are always born into the same role in life and are controled by the Pattern, sent to where they are needed.  Hawkwing will always be a great millitary leader.  Brigette will always be an amazing archer, ect...  Everyone else has no set pattern to their lives beforehand and are free to follow their own path.<br /><br />And as for the Oliver/Gaidal debate, I think that they are the same person because Brigette says when Gaidal is woven out that he could have been born days ago or years ago.  Time is a very uncertain value in the world of dreams.  (I will not go out and spend half an hour searching for the quote just for one little post).<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Telvin</font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-07 07:27:32
subject: <b>*competely agrees with 3iaB*</b>
body:
I'd like to think Taim was someone though. One of the other Forsaken is a good idea <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />I remember something about everyone (Not just Heroes) being spun out too. Prob. somewhere in tEotW.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="blue"><img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /> <b>PROUDLY CELEBRATING 10 YEARS OF WOTMANIA!</b></font> <img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /><br /><br /><font color="purple"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <b>FAQ and WoT Admin</b></font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><font color="gray"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> <b>Part-time Philosopher of the Wheel</b> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /></font></font><p><a href="/wotmessageboard2showmessage.asp?MessageID=107993" target="_blank">New WoT quizzes!</a></p><p></p>


created: 2002-01-09 02:13:14
subject: <b>This would explain Taim...</b>
body:
...and his hatred of Rand. After all he has been channelling for a while and probably has his own voice and if he is a previous false Dragon...he could be very bitter that he was a false Dragon and Rand is the real one...<br /><br />Imagine spending your life thinking you are the Dragon Reborn but in the end you are defeated. Then you get the chance to meet the real Dragon Reborn...that must really grate his pride...especially after being defeated again after being reborn.<br /><br />Just a thought.<br /><br />Ciel, the Baerlon Maid<br />doesn't need any titles or smileys<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Ciel, the Baerlon Maid<br />doesn't need any titles or smileys</font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-11 08:51:03
subject: <b>I have to disagree</b>
body:
Though well thought out, I don't agree with this theory. I believe if Robert Jordan would pursue this plot, we'd have already seen something of it. Besides, assuming someone is a soul from the Age of Legends simply because of their ability to channel is a long shot. Are all the Aes Sedai also women from the AoL?<br /><br />In regards to the comment on the sudden increase in male channeling ability, you have to remember that most of these men would never have channeled in their lives had it not been for an Asha'man suddenly appearing. They were born with the ability, just not able to reach it unaided. The same thing has happened for Aes Sedai as far back as history can tell, women born with the ability to channel, but needing help in reaching it that first time.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-01-25 06:35:01
subject: <b>FORGET ABOUT BEIDOMON DAMMIT!!!</b>
body:
HE WAS JUST SOME GUY OKAY!!!<br /><br />There. Now that that's out of my system (for the moment), perhaps I can be rational again.<br /><br />I don't know if there's any proof for this, and I don't think there will be any reference to it unless my unpublished (grrr<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angry.gif" border="0" /> (boy, I'm really ticked off tonight!<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />)) theory turns out to be true.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Reading: The Woodlanders - Thomas Hardy</font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-19 11:23:07
subject: <b>Fals Dragon Reborn</b>
body:
It is true that the web has woven more male channellers now than ever.<br />There was some converstion I remember between 2 Aes Sedai that mentioned there were more male channellers in the last 5 years as compared to the last 20.<br />Which would support the theory that maybe Logain and MT are Flase Dragon reborn.<br /><br />I am not fully convinced yet.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" />shadow killer<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-31 00:38:18
subject: <b>Foreshadowing</b>
body:
Rand has gotten some of LTT thoughts from channeling. Something that supports your Logain Guaire theory is that in TFOH Logain wanted to be called Guaire when they ran from the Tower. Maybe this was because he had some of Guaire's thoughts.


created: 2002-01-05 23:05:55
subject: <b>hm...</b>
body:
The fact that Mat thinks Moiraine is dead could be a problem, let alone heading for the tower of gengei. And how would Elayne's prophecy about the broken hand be satisfied? &quot;One of the things she [Min] said she saw looking at me was a severed hand. Not mine, she says.&quot; It seems to imply that it is refering to a normal hand... And the Band would hardly be severed in any event - they have been without Mat for ages now.


created: 2002-01-06 01:42:05
subject: <b>The band of the Red Hand might be fore Elayne</b>
body:
If something happened to cut their ties to Mat completely (like him ditching Egwene or Elayne for some fool quest to the tower of Ghenji) that might force them to turn their backs and head for Elayne (whom they have some affection for anyway). <br /><br />   Nothing in the viewing immediately suggest that the hand will be literal or figurative at all. Also it may be the same hand that Min viewed for Rand (which was bloody, but not necessarily severed) or it might be two separate things. I think that it's gonna be hard to tell until that/those viewing(s) come to pass what the meaning is.<br /><br />   I've long been of the impression that Joline and Teslyn were the fufillment of the two AS on the scale thing. Mats choice to save Teslyn as well as Joline is the main reason why he ended up getting stuck with Tuon at the end of book 9. It seems evident that the eventual marriage to her will play an important role in the large scheme of things. The fact that it's one of the things that the Aelfinn listed as imperative to happen to Mat or things would go badly shows that it will definitely have reprecussions that we might not even be able to forsee yet.<br /><br />   I'm not saying that Moiraine and Egwene aren't possible as the two on the scale. It's just that too many things have to happen in the right order for Mat to have that choice to make. Essentially he has to:<br /><br />A. Come by the knowledge that Moiraine is still alive and in the land of the Finns.<br />B. Find out that the Tower of Ghengi is an entrance to said realm<br />C. Be put in a position where he MUST be part of the rescue party<br />D. Have all of this occur before the White Tower issue is settled or during some other crisis involving Egwene that requires his assistance<br /><br />   That's a pretty tall order right there. No considering that one way or another, Thom Merrilin is going to pull Moiraine out've the fire, and has also been viewed as rushing to Egwenes rescue with time being a factor it may happen out this way after all. I'm just sayin that with Teslyn and Joline having already given Mat a choice that affects the fate of the world, that unless something else comes up I'll say that particular prediction has already been filled.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-06 04:10:11
subject: <b>Without looking it up...</b>
body:
Did Mat ever find out how Moiraine died?  As in her falling through the doorway?  If so, I'm surprised.  I'd expect Mat to get pissed at the Finn again and go for some vengeance.


created: 2002-01-06 08:04:29
subject: <b>KEnco...</b>
body:
...in that case: Hasn&#180;t the prophecy already been fulfilled? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gimli.gif" border="0" /> Llaydwhonn Gaidin <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gimli.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> The disguised Asha&#180;man <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> Still unbonded <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/r2d2.gif" border="0" /> Dedicated to the Black Ajah <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/r2d2.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-06 09:04:39
subject: <b>red hand</b>
body:
I really really really LIKE the idea of the severed hand being the band...Really metaphorical...Nice one Lightbringer!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Shad40 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br />To spit in Sightblinder's eye etc. etc.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /> Mat's Oosquai drinking partner <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angry.gif" border="0" /> Protector of Princess Aleena <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angry.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> Haiku writer<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br />And all round WoT Lover.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-06 17:02:28
subject: <b>Nah</b>
body:
I don't see all the Aes Sedai collared, I mean Jordan's just spent too long building up the idea of <br /><br />1. people from Seanchan seeing that free channelers are not immediately going to kill everyone else <br /><br />and<br /><br />2. the damane's handelers actually being able to channel themselves.<br /><br />I don't think he'd do this and then suddenly start leashing all Aes Sedai. I don't see how it could be done anyway.<br /><br />I know that's hardly the heart of your theory, but I just thought I'd talk about that point. I still can't work out if Mat is going to be one of those rescuing Moiraine or not, I sure hope so though.


created: 2002-01-07 05:14:28
subject: <b>Egwane is not depended on the Band</b>
body:
Egwane is not depended on the Band for the taking of the WT. We know it from her talk with Talmenas and the fact that when he tells her that the Band will stay in Murandy too help the King become more then a puppet king she is pleased.<br />I think that the prophecy refers to saving Joline and Teslyn. Mat had to decide if to save only Joline from the inn, or to try and save Teslyn from the palace too.<br />The effect of his decision is that it delayed him and got him and Toun together. The effect of that will be their marriage and the coming of the Seanchan Empire for Rand.<br />The losing half the light of the world will be, the lands the Seanchan already rule, which Rand will let them keep for their help.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" />  One man's theology is another man's belly laugh  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> A man who refuses to take his own death into account in making plans is a fool. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-07 09:17:13
subject: <b>you have convinced me</b>
body:
I used to think the prophecy was about Teslyn and Joline, just like many others I think, but saving Moiraine seems slightly more important.<br /><br />I do not think however, that the Aes Sedai will be collared, partially because it just would not fit, and partially because they are moving towards Tar Valon in any case and are no longer dependent upon the Band. They were not there to protect Egwene from the Seanchan, anyway, but Egwene used them to speed the hall... or am I wrong?<br /><br />However; Mat never liked Moiraine... it will be interesting to see how he manages to convince himself that he should risk anything to save her...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> <font color="a52a2a">Magnus Alexander corpore parvus erat </font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <font color="b8860b">Dissenting voice of wotmania</font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <br /><font color="6495ed">Frightfully stubborn pacifist</font> <br /><br /><i><font color="669900"> Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent</font></i></font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-07 12:00:48
subject: <b>Half the Light of the world</b>
body:
Why does everyone think that Half the light of the world is always Aes Sedai or Ashaman?  Mat isn't in any sort of position to sacrifice one of those, he doesn't even have them in possesion!<br /><br />Here's another thought:<br /><br />Half the light of the world = one of his own eyes<br /><br />Payment to the Finn?  Who knows.  But the vision of him pulling down a hat to cover a wound, putting an eye on a balance scale, and half the light of the world all go together.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">::  I am the speaker at the dawn of the age<br />::  and I stand at the door to the west.<br /><br />~X~<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-07 13:35:36
subject: <b>no...</b>
body:
i dont think jordan would use three vague visions to tie together one direct event... he's too smart for that. my guess is that he is layering events on top of one another, that mat's wound, the eye, and the scales all deal with multiple events that revolve around him but that have similar metaphors<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Can you see the line where the water ends?<br />Draws itself off into oblivion...</font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-08 13:22:08
subject: <b>hmm.. I don't know.</b>
body:
I think that we have a better chance of picking a lottery number than of guessing how this prophecy will be fulfilled.  At least with a lottery you know what all the possible combinations are.  There is no guarantee that that is true in WoT.  Any one sentence in any one book to come <i>could</i> change things completly.<br /><br />As far as Mat attacking the tower of Genjei. As was stated above what motive will Mat have?  A much more likely explanation IMHO is that another gateway will be found.  Mat has already shown a predilection to jumping through gateways to get even with the Finn's.  <br /><br />I think there is no doubt that Mat will try to rescue Moiraine if he can.  Mat will rescue anybody (particularly women) no matter who they are.  <br /><br />I disagree with errantrougue in that if three separate prophecies seem all related (eye on a balance, face bleeding, separate half the light of the world) then it is <i>more</i> likely that these prophesies refer to the same event.  Important events have more than one prophecy attached to them.  (2 prophesies for three in a boat for instance).<br /><br />Mainly I think this, because of Occam's razor.  (Occam's razor says when given the choice between two hypothesis that have roughly the same chance of being right choose the simpler.  That way if it is false it will be easier to eliminate.  If it is true (even if both are true) you will gain more since you can more easily use a simpler model.)  It is much simpler to assume the three viewings are related to the same event than to assume the viewings refer to separate events with a common theme.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">RabidWombat<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> Let the Lord of Rambling Thoughts rule <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> Proud owner of a 2 star rating! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /> Someone stole all my cookies <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-31 10:04:28
subject: <b>Hmmmm</b>
body:
I think Mat doesn't really care about Moirane...<br /><br />He personally wanted to run from her in the beginning, so why help find her<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Geoff</font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-20 12:17:51
subject: <b>confused</b>
body:
I'm a bit confused. I don't remember where is written that Matt will save moiraine . But is it written somewhere? <br />Ok, i remember  the prophecy about thom, but mat?


created: 2002-02-28 02:21:18
subject: <b>Ashaman Udi , Egwene is dependent on the band...</b>
body:
...at first. she used them to gain more soldiers for her army.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/thom.gif" border="0" /> Jahar Narishma <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/seanchan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/seanchan.gif" border="0" /> Ashaman Extraordinaire <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/seanchan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/thom.gif" border="0" /> BS Saidin, major in Traveling <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-26 23:17:14
subject: <b>Thom and Moiraine</b>
body:
I think Thom will save Moiraine from the tower because Egwene had a dream of Thom reacking into a fire and pulling out a jewl, like the one on Moiraine's head.


created: 2003-01-29 14:54:18
subject: <b>Mat may not know, but Thom does.</b>
body:
Someone referred to the fact that Mat would not rescue Moiraine because he assumes shes dead. But Thom probably knows otherwise from his letter that he is constantly looking over.<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> There is neither beginning nor end <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />MoiraineD


created: 2003-02-11 05:13:54
subject: <b>Half the light of the world</b>
body:
The giving up half the light of the world to save the world bit means that Mat will lose an eye.  It's an Odin reference.  According to friend of mine who knows his Norse mythology better that I do, Mat's story is loaded with Odin references.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />Humility tutor to Aes Sedai <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> Sparing partner of Lanagorn <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> Believer in Taimandred the theory <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angry.gif" border="0" /> Sworn enemy of Taimandred the man <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angry.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/berelain.gif" border="0" /> Hopelessly in lust with Berelain <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/berelain.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-10-22 06:45:45
subject: <b>Ack!</b>
body:
To everyone, make it clear:  Moraine might come back, but don't look at it as a sure thing!  What if Lanfear (Cyndane) was faster in her three wishes, and wished this:  To get more powerful, to get out, and to have Moraine die!


created: 2008-04-19 19:28:00
subject: <b>The Balance Scale Debated</b>
body:
to Moridin_2000<br /><br />yes, Mat IS looking for Moiraine as of the end of KoD. He decides to leave the Band of the Red Hand and search for Moiraine in the land of the Aelfinn and Eelfinn with Thom.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">~~~~eLaYnE aL'tHoR~~~~</font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-06 09:16:13
subject: <b>Great theory...</b>
body:
... I agree with most of what you say.<br />But I think you should have included exact quotes and book references.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>F&#246;r &#246;vrigt anser jag att Mordor b&#246;r f&#246;rst&#246;ras.</i></font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-06 17:11:15
subject: <b>Moridin...</b>
body:
...why should the name of TV not be changed to something &quot;greater&quot; after a possible unification of the two Towers? Just a thought. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gimli.gif" border="0" /> Llaydwhonn Gaidin <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gimli.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> The disguised Asha&#180;man <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> Still unbonded <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/r2d2.gif" border="0" /> Dedicated to the Black Ajah <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/r2d2.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-06 17:22:18
subject: <b>Well....</b>
body:
That's what it's name is, and has been for an extremely long time, you can hardly call it something else. I don't see any special reason why it would drop the T and Tar and Valon would join to make Arvalon. It's even a stretch of the imagination to rename it Great Tar Valon. Remember that it's the name of the city that changes it's name, not the White Tower.<br /><br />Also Tar Valon means Tower Guard or Guard Tower in the Old Tongue. They probably wouldn't forget that.<br /><br />But I did say that I could be wrong <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="blue"><img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /> <b>PROUDLY CELEBRATING 10 YEARS OF WOTMANIA!</b></font> <img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /><br /><br /><font color="purple"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <b>FAQ and WoT Admin</b></font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><font color="gray"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> <b>Part-time Philosopher of the Wheel</b> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /></font></font><p><a href="/wotmessageboard2showmessage.asp?MessageID=107993" target="_blank">New WoT quizzes!</a></p><p></p>


created: 2002-01-06 17:24:10
subject: <b>SURELY...</b>
body:
...Great Arvalon is Tar Valon, it exemplifies Jordan's idea of how time can change names etc (al'Thor=Arthur etc). However, I don't see how the fact that the changed name still exists means that there won't be a large battle with the One Power. I don't personally think there will be, but the name change could have come about because the city is destroyed and rebuilt.<br /><br />Here's a crazy idea, perhaps the name changes like this:<br /><br />1. The Black Tower is destroyed, the Asha'man eventually move into Elaida's palace once relations begin to grow between the male and female channelers.<br /><br />2. Elaida's palace is still called the Black Tower, whether intentionally or just because people got used to calling the Ashaman's home that. This means there is a Black and White Tower in existance.<br /><br />3. Some wiseguy coins the phrase &quot;Gray Tar Valon&quot; which quickly catches on, as Tar Valon which was previously white is now gray because black was mixed in.<br /><br />4. Over time the name sticks and, as Jordan has shown, names change either through hearing the name slightly wrong or stories being told in different ways. Some people think they hear Great Arvalon rather than Gray Tar Valon and tell that story.<br /><br />5. This story soon becomes the most well known so the name spreads further and eventually, over quite some time, it becomes the city's name.<br /><br />I've never actually examined this quote before, but it's certainly interesting:<br /><br />&quot;The lions sing and the hills take flight.<br />The moon by day, and the sun by night.<br />Blind woman, deaf man, jackdaw fool.<br />Let the Lord of Chaos rule.<br /> <br />-Chant from a children's game heard in Great Aravalon, the Fourth Age&quot;<br /><br />I can't really add to your idea of Elaida being the blind woman, but there's the quote for anyone who wants to make anything of it.


created: 2002-01-06 18:20:11
subject: <b>Hmmm.. lots of cool stuff here</b>
body:
I must point out however that Tar Valon becoming Great Arvalon would be a lenghtened name not a shortened one. Youre essentially adding Grea to the pre-existing Tar Valon.<br /><br />   By the way 'The Lions Sing and the Hills take flight' could mean that Andor stands strong at TG, but Cairheinin cowers back. Then there's 'the moon by day and the sun by night' I always thought of this as a refference to Rand and Tuon. Tuon is the Daughter of the Nine Moons, while Rand is he who comes with the dawn and the Lord Of Morning Reborn. Perhaps Tuon will bring about a great strike by the Seanchan during the day, and Rand will make his big manuver at night.<br /><br />   If Elaida is the blind woman, then perhaps the Leader of the Children of the Light is the deafman. After the white cloaks are notorious for not listening to reason. That leaves the Jack Daw Fool. Perhaps Mat who's played the part of the fool so often would fill this roll. Then again maybe it's Masema. Or another way to look at it is that it's not about any specific people.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-06 23:58:15
subject: <b>Me again</b>
body:
In the books, Tar Valon has been refered to as Great Tar Valon.<br /><br />I am not saying that the name change happens any time soon.  For all we know, the quote could come another 3000 years in the future.  After all, the snakes and foxes rhyme survived that long.<br /><br />P.S.  As it is a child's rhyme, it should not be taken too literally.  After all, 'Little Red Riding Hood' is about a Pedophile and There are a number about the Black Plague that are still taught today is such a garbaled form that it is impossabe to tell.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Telvin</font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-07 07:19:23
subject: <b>Where is it called Great Tar Valon?</b>
body:
But the reason it wouldn't change from Grey Tar Valon in the first place is that EVERYONE has heard of Tar Valon. Even if one person hadn't (Seanchan or Aiel) the rest of the world would say 'Actually it's Grey Tar Valon, not Great Arvalon'. And I would say that the history of the founding of the Black Tower at Tar Valon would be a major historical event like the founding of White Tower. <br /><br />Could there ever be a Why Tower?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="blue"><img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /> <b>PROUDLY CELEBRATING 10 YEARS OF WOTMANIA!</b></font> <img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /><br /><br /><font color="purple"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <b>FAQ and WoT Admin</b></font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><font color="gray"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> <b>Part-time Philosopher of the Wheel</b> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /></font></font><p><a href="/wotmessageboard2showmessage.asp?MessageID=107993" target="_blank">New WoT quizzes!</a></p><p></p>


created: 2002-01-07 10:03:46
subject: <b>Well</b>
body:
Why has Cairhien's name changed then? Surely that's a big enough city. Why will al'Thor eventually be confused with Arthur? Surely enough people in the world know his name to correct each other. Why will Artur Paendrag Tanreall and Rand al'Thor later be mixed into one character, Arthur Paendragon (King Arthur)? Surely that's a ridiculous idea, such well known names from by thoasands of years could be mixed up, could they?<br /><br />It's all because stories or rumours change ever so slightly at every telling, over a lifetime you might not see much of a difference, but after hundreds of years stories and names can be markedly different.


created: 2002-01-07 13:28:32
subject: <b>interesting...</b>
body:
i am getting allusions here (and elsewhere) that perhaps Jordan is setting up the WoT as an alternate earth such as Tolkein did? is that what the above are goig after with changing names to fit such as with the King Arthur inferance, the Odin/Mat theories ive heard, and the Seanchan perhaps being melded into the Shawnchin, then Chin?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Can you see the line where the water ends?<br />Draws itself off into oblivion...</font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-07 14:35:53
subject: <b>Cairhien</b>
body:
Had a really long name in the Old Tongue, Al'cair'rahienallen. Since people stopped speaking the Old Tongue it's too hard to remember. It was shortened for the same reason Los Angeles was. Tar Valon is simple to remember.<br /><br />As for Artur, Jordan only used that influence. Artur Hawkwing isn't King Arthur. I don't reacall anyone ever saying that they will ever be mixed into one character.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="blue"><img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /> <b>PROUDLY CELEBRATING 10 YEARS OF WOTMANIA!</b></font> <img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /><br /><br /><font color="purple"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <b>FAQ and WoT Admin</b></font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><font color="gray"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> <b>Part-time Philosopher of the Wheel</b> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /></font></font><p><a href="/wotmessageboard2showmessage.asp?MessageID=107993" target="_blank">New WoT quizzes!</a></p><p></p>


created: 2002-01-07 14:59:04
subject: <b>You don't understand</b>
body:
RJ is basically saying this (he never actually said this, I'm just demonstrating, but it's one of his 2 main themes in the series): We think we know the truth about King Arthur and Christ and everything else I use in this way in the books, but stories change over time. I'm demonstrating that by showing what might have really happened and how it's been twisted over time.<br /><br />It's like that game you play (it's called Chinese Whispers where I live, might be different elsewhere) where you whisper a phrase to someone and carry on in a circle till you get to the end and you find that it's changed through the course, although everyone thinks they said exactly what they heard. It's SUCH a main theme in the series that it's pretty amazing to me that you could doubt Great Arvalon is Tar Valon twisted over the years.<br /><br />Of course Hawkwing and Rand are both from King Arthur. They certainly have other influences, but they definitely both come from that source too. Let's take the elements from Rand and Hawkwing that mix into King Arthur:<br /><br />al'Thor = Arthur<br />Artur = Arthur<br />Paendrag = Paendragon (Arthur's surname)<br />Dragon = PaenDRAGON<br />Only Rand's hand could draw the sword Callandor = Only King Arthur's hand could draw Excalibur<br />Artur was known as the High King = The Welsh especially among other see King Arthur as High-King of Britain.<br /><br />We are clearly meant to see how time and stories twisting ever so slightly everytime they're told will mix these two characters, who are VERY famous at the time the books are set, into one character. In the same way Tar Valon, which is very famous at the time the books are set, will also change to Great Arvalon.


created: 2002-01-07 20:49:54
subject: <b>Thanks</b>
body:
Thank you for summing up my point about Arvalon.<br /><br />It is strange though, that none of my other points are being metioned at all, let alone debated.<br /><br />Normally anything with as little evidance as the finding of the song has at least a mention, or people who have evidance for or against.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Telvin</font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-08 14:04:09
subject: <b>Wait!</b>
body:
I wish I could have read this theory before wotmania was deluged with all these theories. Now probably no one will even read this comment. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/frown.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Anyway, we are all missing a significant clue here. That clue is &quot;Tamyrlin&quot;. It is rather interesting how the 'T' was dropped on that name to become &quot;Amyrlin&quot;. Maybe when we discover the reason for that change, the reason for dropping the 'T' in Tar Valon will become clear.


created: 2002-01-13 16:40:30
subject: <b>a bit further</b>
body:
lets just say Tar Valon becomes the Great Arvalon.  That sure sounds a lot like Avalon.  wasn't that the island...<br />...interesting.


created: 2002-02-03 18:29:29
subject: <b>Didn't RJ say his favourite film was &quot;Excalibur&quot;</b>
body:
Maybe that was a hint, and in other prophecies, it says that Rand IS the land. Just like Arthur.<br /><br />For those who mention that the white tower must stay I say this, if it is a wheel of time, then therefore for the tower to be built, it must have been destroyed at some point.<br /><br />I never thought about pendragon - dragon. Perhaps that is the only reason he is called that.


created: 2002-03-08 16:17:15
subject: <b>Interesting</b>
body:
I think they whole debate over the renaming is quite interesting, and i think it is definately possible. It is also possible the Tar Valon is destroyed, either by Aes Sedai, vying for control, or for the new dreadlords. Perhaps after TG, a center is built for all channelers, and they name it the Great Arvalon in reference to the former Tar Valon.<br /><br />Also, I think we must remember that a lot of things change at the end of an age. Even if the world isn't broken, I think many things may change. Maybe male channelers, having joined forces with female channelers, will refuse to associate themselves with Tar Valon because of its history of stilling men, and insist that the name is changed. And female channelers, anxious to forget the past when male channelers, will agree.<br /><br />Good work on the Grey Tower thing, three in a boat. I, for one, thought that was clever.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Pronounced: &quot;Rand was here&quot;<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shakefist.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-15 00:18:14
subject: <b>Dropping T's</b>
body:
Tar Valon to Arvalon or Tamyrlin to Amyrlin, it all has to words becoming softened over heavy use. &quot;T&quot; is a very easy sound to soften, or altogether drop. Think about it the next time you say &quot;true&quot; or &quot;tree.&quot; Chances are, depending on your local accent or how well you enunciate, you might say something closer to &quot;chrue&quot; or &quot;chree.&quot; Of course, this would take thousands and thousands of years to be accepted as &quot;proper&quot;


created: 2002-04-23 01:01:04
subject: <b>The Lands United</b>
body:
This is the first time I've commented so here we go,<br /><br />Rand will unite tthe lands under him and under one direct rulership, what form this rulership will take I'm not sure. Furthermore I think this inification will survive his death.Why?? My reasoning is that in the age of legends, war was unknown and swordmanship was a sport. For war to be unkown it means there can only be one central governing body, otherwise war will eventually happen. Carrying on with the Arthur theme, if you look in the legend there is a time of peace when all of Britain is unified under Arthur, however I belive that the entirety of Arthur's reign is reflected in the wheel of time, and that each age reflects a period of time in Arthur's reign. Anyway just a thought.....


created: 2002-05-02 16:20:43
subject: <b>What about Moiraine as Merlin? She fits the part</b>
body:
Isn't it just as likely that Tar Valon will be destroyed and rebuilt?  After all, there are a lot of references in the book about Tar Valon being razed, and the earth salted. <br /><br />I don't think Tar Valon will survive TG, but I wouldn't be surprised if it is rebuilt as Avalon, I mean Arvalon. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />I've always known the parralel between Hawkwing and King Arthur, but I never made the connection between Al'Thor.   I really enjoyed this post


created: 2002-05-07 09:50:02
subject: <b>Differing Opinion</b>
body:
I had always been of the opinion that the prophecy snippets found at the beginning and end of the books were not from the Age after Rand, but of an age before.  Who is to say that Age 3 is after Age 2, it could be after 4.  There is nothing of that in the books, though.  I always saw these as prophecy...and prohpecy, by definition, has to come before the event, not after.


created: 2002-06-13 09:01:58
subject: <b>Thoughts on Great Arvalon</b>
body:
Maybe the change of name indicates that much of the city IS destroyed as part of Tarmon Gaidon- and they build a new city around what's left, re-naming it.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" /> I am Nynaeve <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Aes Sedai of the Asylum Ajah <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" /> The Ring of the Malkieri Kings <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /> Narg lives! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" /> Dammit my eye's on fire! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-15 19:32:31
subject: <b>So there's a big battle</b>
body:
and Tar Valon is destroyed. Yet not the island--so, after everything, the city is rebuilt. There's this habit to, when you remake or improve upon something, do the same to the name. So Tar Valon becomes Great Tar Valon, then eventually Great Arvalon, eliminating the repeated &quot;T&quot;. A simmilar thing happened when Aemon's Field became Emond's Field, which we've seen happen already in the series.<br /><br />Love the Renaissance idea. Perhaps the Old Tongue will become a Latin of sorts--used in the higher arts and sciences, though not spoken every day. Of course, I'm still amused that the Seanchan, Sea Folk, Aielmen, and Sharamen, not to mention the entire wetlands, all speak the same language after thousands of years, when a relatively small space like Europe in our world naturally developed at least 5 major languages. But whatever <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Btw...this is kind of a digression, but has anyone else noticed that RJ says in his shpiel at the beginning of each book that the current age was &quot;called the Third Age by some&quot;, not that it's definately the Third Age? Perhaps since the people of the time only remember the Age of Legends and that rumored Age Before, they assume this is the Third Age. Perhaps it's really the sixth, or even seventh--which would mean the Fourth Age already happened, and these writings are simply old, not to come from the future.<br /><br />Just food for thought... <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Memnoch Sedai<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" /> Devish Green <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /> Proud bonder of Vahn de Mac <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /><br />She who is very good <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /> At being very bad <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /><br />Member of the <font color="#0000FF">English</font> <font color="#FF0000">Quisition</font><br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/13777.gif" /> Sax is life....the rest is just details <img src="images/personalsmilies/13777.gif" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-29 13:30:10
subject: <b>Jackdawl fool</b>
body:
I think perhaps this refers to Logain or another False Dragon. Since he was set up by the Red Ajah he could be counted as a fool.


created: 2002-08-27 18:13:48
subject: <b>GOOD, BUT NO!</b>
body:
I don't agree with your &quot;making one of many&quot; thing. Although I'm all for Rand having ALL the nations behind him, it might not happen. And even if he does, you have no concrete evidence to proove that. Let me disect that phrase for you, &quot;Many&quot; just means many,(as in several) &quot;Many&quot; is NOT an adjective for &quot;all&quot;. So while you have found proof that he will succeed in binding several nations to him, you have non that suggests he will unite all the nations. Get it?!


created: 2002-10-05 23:58:34
subject: <b>Tar Valon - Arvalon - Avalon?</b>
body:
Just spotted that connection reading this theory.  In Arthurian legend, Avalon was a remote island where women lived who could do magical deeds.  Tar Valon is an island.  Robert Jordan really did use mythology with that one, since Hawkwing (who represents King Arthur) had such troubles with Tar Valon witches, and the people of Avalon supposedly helped destroy King Arthur.  Very cool.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Am I a star beneathe the stairs?<br />Am I a ghost upon the stage?<br />Am I your anything?</font><p></p>


created: 2002-11-14 06:05:27
subject: <b>Not Old Tongue but something else...</b>
body:
In Old Tongue word Dragon is aman, but in Fourth Age the book called the Cycle of the Dragon is Charal Drianaan te Calamon. So it's not the same language.


created: 2003-06-11 12:10:46
subject: <b>some issues</b>
body:
ok first the quotes are from before from an age that some called the fourth, they are prophecy.  Parts of the cycle of the dragon were written in the fourth age, but these are treated as prophecy in the books.  Perhaps they were counting from a different event we didn't always date our years and days from the birth of christ (even after he was born it took a long time for the world to change) and some places in the east still don't (china for example).  As for the combining into one person, that would have to mean that this world is an earlier version of ours...something that is quite ridiculous (the next time you see anyone useing the one power let me know) yes he used arthur christ ect as sources but in his world they don't exist and never will.  Especialy since this is the last time the third age appears see quotes by balmazon where he says this turning is different and here it will finally be decided one way or another.<br /><br />Also check out the matrix, as we learned in the last movie there have been other &quot;ones&quot; in what could be a cycle a wheel of time but this one seems to be different here the machines might finally be overthrown.


created: 2003-06-13 03:55:08
subject: <b>The Wheel of Time Turns</b>
body:
and ages come and go. Just because the current age is called the third age doesn't mean it's the first third age. The wheel could have gone around hundreds of times and there could have been just as many third ages. The forth age where all the quotes are dated could have been six or more ages ago. Not the next one.<br /><br /><br />No one


created: 2003-08-31 16:30:18
subject: <b>The 4th Age</b>
body:
Those quotes cannot possibly be from the previous 4th Age.  Just think about how many thousands of years are involved; if you assign 3000 yrs to the 3rd Age, then 6 more equivalent ages would make it l8,000+ years ago. In the meanwhile, the AOL completely changed the physical nature of the World and also, the Trolloc Wars very nearly destroyed all records since the Breaking.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2005-08-28 13:43:43
subject: <b>Good therory..</b>
body:
I like it and to me it COULD happen,or has...<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> <br />For example, in our own history of say King Arthur, we really don't know if he really existed as one man or as historians are suggesting that he was a mixture of many men through out history...<br />We can't even put a definite date on when this man could have existed, and that is in their(historians) timeline of no more than 1500 years!I think what RJ is attempting to do is show us that we really don't know anything of our own past, and who could have live and how. Because legend was passed orally for so long that distortions could and would take place.


created: 2005-09-13 22:59:52
subject: <b>Wait a minute...</b>
body:
What if the  quotes are all fromthe LAST 4th age, not the next.  Hmm, interesting thought, though probably wrong.  It would be like RJ to throw something like that at us though.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>It's not apples and oranges, but no one paying attention could compare these apples without noticing: <br />(a) one is 12 times bigger and <br />(b) both of them are rutabagas.</i></font><p></p>


created: 2008-05-04 17:51:41
subject: <b>The Portal Stones</b>
body:
Ok, first and foremost, the tower and the general governing entity of the Aes Sedai in Randland continues to exist well beyond the third age.  Remember that the portal stones in the other worlds have 7 stairs, each colored in the different Ajah colors, INCLUDING black.  This may not signify the Black Ajah, but more the Black Tower being brought into the general Aes Sedai body.  However point being there is no real reason for any Tar Valon name change, and also the battle of Tar Valon will be a building smasher, because almost as a HINT RJ has repeatedly placed that the Shining Walls were never conquered.  Its begging for a blow down.


created: 2002-01-06 18:26:08
subject: <b>SWEET JESUS WITH A CRACKPIPE</b>
body:
That was hilarious. You forgot who the Dark One would be though. Perhaps the Devil from Night on Bald Mountain (Fantasia skit) or the bad guy in The Black Cauldron. Best of all would be the dreaded Eyeznear.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-06 19:06:10
subject: <b>I don't know what's scarier...</b>
body:
...that there is that many similarities in the characters or that you thought about it and wrote a theory!  I'm glad you did, though, I laughed my (_|_) off!<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" />  &quot;Until Nynaeve quits yankin' that braid,<br />     May you find water and shade.&quot;  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" />  Vote Logain for M'Hael


created: 2002-01-06 19:22:38
subject: <b>nice.</b>
body:
Great stuff!!<br /><br />Not sure about selling it to Disney, but they must be running out of ideas by now (I mean Aladin 3???). <br />It does sound like a good way to introduce your average 5 year old to Randland though..<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" />em..hi? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> If your head has to roll, let it roll with a smile <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-07 05:26:58
subject: <b>Funny, funny!</b>
body:
This theory was really great!<br />It's the funniest one I've<br />read for a long time! The<br />characters is prety similar.<br />Send it to disney!<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /> The wheel of time weaves as the Wheel wills <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-08 03:26:58
subject: <b>There is a Disney/WoT conspiracy....</b>
body:
I'm just not allowed to say how far it goes (folds arms and looks smugly Aes Sedai)<br /><br /><br />Here's a hint, though. There's been a special remake of Beauty and the Beast, with new material added. Sound familiar?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Green Ajah<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br />Desiring to join the Wotmania Theatre Guild<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" />Proudly sticking a spoke in the Wheel<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-08 22:12:30
subject: <b>But...</b>
body:
They still haven't come out wiht nine year olds yet.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">MoelBrain: The other MB</font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-17 22:22:47
subject: <b>Brilliant, Brilliant I Tell You!</b>
body:
I just had to print this out to keep with my WOT stuff. Perfect for a laugh, the characters were perfect! <br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" /> Eilonwy Sedai <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> still laughing! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Eilonwy Sedai <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Aes Sedai of the Blue Green Ajah<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" /> Accomplished Dreamwalker <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> Author to Be <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> Member of Absurdity Anonymous <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> Member of English Quisition <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-13 22:04:42
subject: <b>hahahaha</b>
body:
haha!!! OMG thats the funniest thing ive read in a very lon gitme... thats just brilliant!-- great job<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Life sure is interesting with ta'veren for friends...<br />Lorraine Renflorr<br />hermitism... how inviting</font><p></p>


created: 2002-11-12 21:28:29
subject: <b>Your going to H-e double hockey sticks!!</b>
body:
Yes, I will be a B****** about this.  First off, I am not a purist at heart, but if you let 'The Man' i.e Disney touch The Wheel of Time it will simlply be ruined for me.  Secondly it might introduce the wonders of Randland to younger children but then you ruin whatever possible experience these younger kids have when they actually read the series. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angry.gif" border="0" />


created: 2003-06-13 21:00:43
subject: <b>OM#G!!!!!!</b>
body:
mad, mad, mad, MAAAAD props. Alot of thought went into that and it was funny as hell. And Geien, we heard you the first time


created: 2003-07-08 21:40:15
subject: <b>HOLY CRAP</b>
body:
HOLY CRAP!!, i had a really hard time keeping track of who was who in this. (the fact that they were all differect species didn't help too much), but by the time I read it the third or fourth time, I realized it was sheer genious.  Absolutly hilarious, and humor is a sign of intelligence.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" />Nynaeves fellow braid tugger<br />Sitter of the tie dye tower<br />Tulleel Sedai of the Teal ajah<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />&quot;The wheel weaves as the wheel wills, but the will of the wheel is really what I am willing it to weave,&quot;<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-06-09 01:46:57
subject: <b>erp</b>
body:
I hate you. my dad thinks its brilient.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">The one and only Ring of Tamyrlin.<br />Yes, that Ring of Tamyrlin<br />Plauge of Chat Mods<br />The one chat would be so empty without<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-07-20 18:02:10
subject: <b>*sings praises*</b>
body:
That was hilarious!  You have made me smile! I doubt Disney would do it, because they don't understand.  Besides, they'd try to kill it with a 2 movie.  Can you see Disney's WOT 2? I'd be frightened.  You should write more stuff like this, it's really funny!


created: 2004-08-28 19:09:48
subject: <b>Genius! ALL HAIL!</b>
body:
This made me laugh! You have made my day less boring. Hard to follow, but I got it! I second the opinion about Disney WoT 2, no good. The second movie always ruins it and the third is just plain useless. Good work!<br /><br />PS Have you been to Disney lately?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Chaos, panic, disorder-my work here is done.<br /><br />How do I set a laser printer for stun?<br /><br />Raine Sedai<br />Aes Sedai of the Green Ajah<br />Bonded to my Warders, Battle Ajah and ShadowAxe</font><p></p>


created: 2005-01-22 03:33:04
subject: <b>Ha ha..</b>
body:
Think it's worth sending a spec script to Disney? <br /><br />Yep, you should.  Makes heck of a hilarious script with all the correlations. <br />


created: 2005-01-25 16:47:28
subject: <b>tarzan?</b>
body:
i got every one apart from TARZAN?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Surprising what you can dig out of books if you read long enough, isn't it?&quot; -- Rand Al'Thor<br /><br />&quot;I of course have zero evidence for this, but since when has that stopped any of us?&quot; -- David Wren-Hardin <br /><br />Oh, transatlantic Love!<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-08-09 02:20:20
subject: <b>But...</b>
body:
How would they handle the whole &quot;Mickey banging three chick at the same time&quot; thing? You can't let kids see that... Maybe an &quot;Uncut and Unrated&quot; version for when they get older...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Just another post by<br />SN J-Whitt USN<br /><br />http://www.nationstates.net/whitt-ville</font><p></p>


created: 2005-11-05 15:57:56
subject: <b>Brilliant!</b>
body:
I just love it! Good stuff. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sister to Nossy<br />Shot swapper with a_fan <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br />Bonded to Phil Reborn and Sidious<br />&quot;Mommies are like wizards&quot; ~ CVH <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br />The fact that I don't agree with you in no way means I didn't understand you.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-06 08:58:28
subject: <b>spanish inquisition</b>
body:
No one expects the Spanish Inquisition!!!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Shad40 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br />To spit in Sightblinder's eye etc. etc.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /> Mat's Oosquai drinking partner <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angry.gif" border="0" /> Protector of Princess Aleena <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angry.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> Haiku writer<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br />And all round WoT Lover.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-06 13:30:53
subject: <b>Galad's rank</b>
body:
In FoH - An Unexpected Offer, Galad is described wearing &quot;a shirt of shining mail and a white cloak with two golden knots of rank beneath a flaring sun.&quot; He got that rank so quickly as a reward for his skill with the sword.<br /><br />Dopo


created: 2002-01-06 17:08:13
subject: <b>just a thought</b>
body:
NO ONE SUSPECTS THE SPANISH INQUISITION!!!!!!<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I am Dalindor! Monk of many large evil thing butt woopings!!!!</font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-06 17:34:57
subject: <b>i thought about that</b>
body:
no, i dont mean that nobody would expect a certain inquisition by the spanish, but when RJ first mentioned th whitecloaks, my minds eye saw them like the KKK.<br />oh yeah, and Nobody expects the spanish inquisition<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Hi! I'm a signature virus! Copy me to your signature, and help me spread!</font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-06 18:34:31
subject: <b>Dopo Thank you</b>
body:
I had a feeling that I was off about the officer thing but couldn't recall. While I agree with other that the CotL are definitely influenced by the Spanish Inquisition the reason I chose the Ku Klux Kretins was that the Spanish Inquisition was always about going after heretics and witches. The Whitecloaks started out with different intentions.<br /><br />   By the way talking to my dad I was pointed to another similarity. Nathaniel Bedford Forrest (at least one of the founders of the KKK) once stated that he'd take a group of black soldier over caucasians any day because the blacks fought better. So he may be analogous to the guy that started out the CotL that so far as I can tell wadn't anti-Aes Sedai.<br /><br />   Oh and one other thing, there are some people that expect the Spanish Inquisition. THe higher ups that order them to be there.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-06 23:16:02
subject: <b>Is Officer</b>
body:
Galad is an officer.  No recall on chapter but one character mentions it and Galad responds that they recognize talent and thinks nothing of it


created: 2002-01-06 23:48:54
subject: <b>Huh?</b>
body:
By the time Galad's mother is out of hiding for long enough for there to be rumors of it, Galad will be a major force in the CotL.  Plus, so far in the series, every time a  major character has become attached to an originazation in any way, they have made major changes.  Just look at Galad's brother.  He prevented the Warders from rescueing Suian.<br /><br />Plus, once Galad figures out that the CotL are not following the intentions or rules of the guy that started them, he will likly decide that it is 'Wrong' and try to fix it.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Telvin</font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-07 10:55:06
subject: <b>I don't think so....</b>
body:
Knights Templar, Teutonic Knights, Hospitallers, yes......KKK, no<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Da Mook<br /><br /><br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/220.gif" /><br /><br /><br /><i>&quot;You're not cute, you're a silver-fox sex god is what you are.&quot;  LiterateDog to me, of course<br /><br />&quot;snoop elsewhere&quot; -Pevara</i> <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-07 13:16:25
subject: <b>actually i might add</b>
body:
that the inquistion wasnt formed originally to hunt down witches... the inquisition was first an internal reformation movement to crack down on the corruption of the church... but then things started going too far. Once, the aim of the inquistion was to question &quot;indulgences&quot; where sins were forgiven by paying a sort of trbute to the church (making the pontif and bishops fat with gold). But before long, the inquisition took a sharp 180 and began reversing its own doctrine by acknowledging &quot;indulgences&quot; as valid and by turning on the new &quot;heretics&quot; who said otherwise. this is what led to the trend of torture, forced conversion of the jews, and burning of witches at feastdays...<br /><br />this is why i think that the CotL and Inquisition parrallels are more realistic (i mean c'mon, Asunwa is the &quot;Grand Inquisitor of the Light&quot; )<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Can you see the line where the water ends?<br />Draws itself off into oblivion...</font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-07 14:52:34
subject: <b>Let's put Robert Jordan in the Comfy Chair...</b>
body:
...not the comfy chair! Yes, the comfy chair!<br /><br />Seriously, aren't the Whitecloaks most like the Teutonic Order?  In terms of the time period it makes more sense and in terms of the twisting of the mission it makes more sense.<br /><br />I wouldn't associate the Whitecloaks with the Templars, though, because the Order of the Temple was a far too short-lived institution (at least as Knights Templar; I'm not going to discuss the reputed origins of the Freemasons in the Templars) and it was destroyed as a heresy. The Teutonic Order, on the other hand, ended up transforming into a means of expanding German influence to the East - and anyone who's seen Eisenstein's &quot;Alexander Nevsky&quot; knows that not everyone saw them as &quot;heroes&quot; in that task.<br /><br />But I would agree with the earlier statements that no one expects the Spanish Inquisition.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Annoying wotmaniacs for 10 years.<br /><br />Oh, I don't have time for this. I have to go and buy a single piece of fruit with a coupon and then return it, making people wait behind me while I complain. - Prof. Farnsworth<br /> <br /><b>The Voice of Lews Therin</b><br /><br /></font><p><a href="http://www.waronterrortheboardgame.com/" target="_blank">Find out what WOT really means...</a></p><p></p>


created: 2002-01-08 08:29:17
subject: <b>Definitely the Religious Right</b>
body:
The Religious Right movement in the US is the best parallel. They seek to use force to advance their goals (ie the police power of the state), their viewpoint is extremely skewed to the conservative bent (when compared to others of the same faith), everyone who disagrees with them is a sinner/heretic, they call everyone a &quot;child of God&quot;, they think they're the only good people in an evil world, they think their job is to convert everyone else... I could go on an on.......<br />Pat Robertson...leader of the whitecloaks. I can see it! Can you?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;You can call me dumb or crazy, ignorant, stupid, inferior, or lazy. Silly or foolish, but I'm badder and bigger. Most of all, I'm a straight up...&quot; Ice T</font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-08 10:25:08
subject: <b>Knights Templar</b>
body:
...but someone beat me to it. *sigh*  Seriously though, I have little doubt that's where much of RJ's inspiration for the Children came.  I don't think the KKK are a good analogy for the Whitecloaks -- other than in terms of physical appearance...<br /><br />But, without a doubt, NOBODY expects the Spanish Inquisition! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Viran Yevel <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> RL Nae'Blis of sorts <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Masticator Extraordinaire <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> 100% Spettio devotee <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/oh.gif" border="0" /> Co-Founder of Absurdity Anonymous <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/oh.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-08 20:46:06
subject: <b>Sorry just a correction for &quot;Errantrogue&quot;</b>
body:
It is a common misconception that the sale of indulgences was for the forgiveness of sins.  Indulgences actually absolved the person of time spent in purgatory for the sins.  So you weren't forgiven, rather just didn't have to wait to get into heaven.  Just to clear that up for you.


created: 2002-01-09 14:21:04
subject: <b>Well at least I sparked some lively conversation</b>
body:
I wasn't totally firm in the idea of CotL being a direct analogy of the KKK (like I said the idea just got into my head) and I can definitely see where the Spanish Inquisition is a lot more applicable. I am glad however that I sparked some good conversation, and a lot of historical tidbits of knowledge brought up.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-10 14:00:50
subject: <b>I'll take the big mac combo meal</b>
body:
hey what about the whitecloaks being a combonation of the spanish inquisition and the KKK.  <br />The questiners would be the inquisition and the normal military would be the KKK. it certainly would lead to the <br />kind of conflict we currently have shown between the military of the CotL and the questioners<br /><br />Lytjan Morillin


created: 2002-01-11 15:09:07
subject: <b>knight Templar</b>
body:
I tend to think of the Whitecloaks as members of the Knight Templar. basically because of their founding. the Knights Templar were monastic monks who took up arms to protect pilgrims on their journeys to the holy land, while the whitecloaks were also founded by spiritual men who took up arms.<br />both groups became more militant than spiritual and gained increasing political power, and eventually fell into illrepute.<br />the Knight Templar eventually had to leave most of their strongholds and flee to England, the only land still open to them, and passed their fortresses into the hands of the Knights Hospitalier for safe keeping.  although persued and forbidden in many European countries, there were rumers that they still operated secretly in many lands. (hence the whole Cult thing)<br />the whitecloaks are currently in a stage much similar to that of the downfall of the Templars.  many people distrust them, their political power is still strong, but fading in many places.  I think Galad will bring about a revolution in the whitecloaks, casting out those that are power hungry or darkfriends and returning the children to the founding beliefs on Mantaler (or however it is spelled)


created: 2002-02-05 16:14:53
subject: <b>KKK &amp; stuff</b>
body:
The KKK modeled their costumes (like the dumbasses they are) after the Spanish Inquisition.  The children of the light are modeled after the Spanish Inquisition, and so are the KKK.


created: 2002-05-01 06:54:03
subject: <b>KKK, Templars and Teutonic Knights</b>
body:
The military wing as KKK, the Hand as the inquisition.. interesting theory. However, from my readings of the book I would make the children more along the lines of the templars and teutonics. When TG is over, I believe (think? hope?) that Galad will take the children in the direction of the Teutonic knights instead of the Templars. Why? Because the Templars were persecuted and prosecuted as heretics and disbanded. The Teutonic knights, on the other hand, went back to their roots. The Teutonics started as a seperate order of the Knights of St. John, the Hostpitalers, caring for German pilgrims to the Holy Land. They eventually broke off and formed their own order, with the military wing taking precedence over the hospital wing. After the crusades, in the early 1300's I believe, they were sent by the Pope to Prussia and Lithuania to convert the Pagans, the last in Europe. They conquered the land that later became German Prussia and set up their own state. (side note-the original Prussians were NOT German, but a seperate branch of the Lithuanian/Latvian family. The knights brought in German settlers who interbred with the natives, and the original Prussian language was outlawed. Kinda like what England did with Scotland and Ireland) This Teutonic state lasted into the late 15th-early 16th century. Eventually, the military wing became less and less prominent and the hospital wing regained much influence. The Teutonic knighthood, in the form of hospitalers, and including true Teutonic Knights, was still in exsistence as late as WW I in Vienna, Austria and provided ambulance service to the Austrian army in that war. As far as I know, they still are.<br />Sooooooo, after that long-winded disertation (NEVER give a history major an excuse to expound on something! LOL) I think Galad will take the children away from their anti-Aes Sedai prejudices and military excesses back towards the original intent of the children. After all, Galad ALWAYS does what is right!!<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Tai'Shar Preussen!<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/seanchan.gif" border="0" /> Der Ritter des Lichtes  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> Lord Protector of the Lady B.Alicia <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-06 19:25:23
subject: <b>Galad a newbie??</b>
body:
i can't remember the chapter, but i'm pretty sure that Galad is one of the fastest rising Whitecloaks around.  It seems that RJ is settimg him up for something big in the Whitecloak ranks.


created: 2002-06-14 04:11:54
subject: <b>Ahem.</b>
body:
We ill mannered dullards, would prefer not to be grouped with rabid psychos, thank you.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Duriora Virtus<br /><br />If anyone can translate that into English, e-mail me, please.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-29 00:36:42
subject: <b>kkk + spanish inquisition= whitecloaks</b>
body:
i agree with Moridin_2000's comment that the CotL inquisitors ( or whatever they are called) meet the spanish inquisition head on. i also agree with the kkk angle. <br /><br />hooray for beer <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-01-07 17:32:59
subject: <b>What if...</b>
body:
What if Callandor was made specifically to use in defense of balefire?  That would explain why it has no &quot;gaurd&quot; to prevent being burnt out on it.<br /><br />Just a thought.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">::  I am the speaker at the dawn of the age<br />::  and I stand at the door to the west.<br /><br />~X~<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-07 19:55:14
subject: <b>Or...</b>
body:
it could be that rand split the stream unconsciously like he did so many other things at that time.  He could have been using Callandor as a focus like Moiraine's staff.   Callandor itself was not what split the weave but Rand's  mind.  It was just book special effects that made it seem otherwise.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where did these Skimmers come from?  I mean if they didn't want to read the book they could have just Traveled to another author.  Why risk arriving at the wrong destination?  Why risk falling into darkness?</font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-07 21:58:11
subject: <b>gholam and balefire</b>
body:
Just a comment about gholam and the One Power. If they are immune to the one power then how can Mat's medallion have an effect? Unless it has nothing to do with the One Power... In fact I think he needs one with a Snake on it, just to balance things out.


created: 2002-01-08 00:14:22
subject: <b>Ahem...........</b>
body:
In LoC Rand using LTT's memories said that gholam were not immune to balefire. I think it's near the chapter, A Sense of Humor, during his visit to the BT<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Emperor of Draco <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /> Lord Tiger VII <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> Reigning Animal Lord <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /> Hater of Imbeciles <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> Wise Guy <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />        lord_tiger_vii_@hotmail.com</font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-08 07:47:44
subject: <b>He says</b>
body:
this (about Shadowspawn):<br /><br />&quot;Some you can kill the way legends say, but some won't die for anything short of balefire that I'm sure of&quot;<br /><br />having just thought of a gholam for the first time. However, I'm pretty certain he was talking about Darkhounds, which he was talking about even more recently than than the gholam thought.


created: 2002-01-08 10:23:49
subject: <b>Another possible explanation</b>
body:
When channeling with the help of an <i>angreal</i> or <i>sa'angreal</i> it is always described as channeling <i>through</i> it. In the way that Callandor lights up brighter the more <i>saidin</i> is channeled.<br />Could it be that the balefire was deflected not so much by Callandor itself, but rather, the insane amounts of <i>saidin</i> in it?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Wielder of teh Dutch l00ny!<br />(*mumble* Did that make sense? .... Oh well)</font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-08 11:54:38
subject: <b>you mean me!</b>
body:
Hey! you mean me when you said i dont put any thought in to theorys! Why wouldnt RJ be an ogier in disguise huh? huh? well if your gonna be that way i might as well leave!!!!! ha! what have you got to say now..oh... you don't care...<br />... <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/frown.gif" border="0" />......nah! i'm just kidding <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Hi! I'm a signature virus! Copy me to your signature, and help me spread!</font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-08 13:56:41
subject: <b>No lord turin...</b>
body:
Not you <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> I wish I could show you the theories we throw out. Arok Manok got a fan fiction with no punctuation, large lettering and in purple text. The theorypost ones are sometimes worse <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="blue"><img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /> <b>PROUDLY CELEBRATING 10 YEARS OF WOTMANIA!</b></font> <img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /><br /><br /><font color="purple"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <b>FAQ and WoT Admin</b></font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><font color="gray"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> <b>Part-time Philosopher of the Wheel</b> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /></font></font><p><a href="/wotmessageboard2showmessage.asp?MessageID=107993" target="_blank">New WoT quizzes!</a></p><p></p>


created: 2002-01-08 14:01:44
subject: <b>Gholam and balefire</b>
body:
If they could be killed by Balefire they would all be dead years ago. There were only 6 made, you know. Wouldn't be a very efficient assassin for channelers in the AOL.<br /><br />I see mat's medallion as some kind of anti-magic. Like the stedding and the Guardian. The Gholam is probably something similar. It might be able to be killed by something of the same anti-magic.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="blue"><img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /> <b>PROUDLY CELEBRATING 10 YEARS OF WOTMANIA!</b></font> <img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /><br /><br /><font color="purple"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <b>FAQ and WoT Admin</b></font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><font color="gray"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> <b>Part-time Philosopher of the Wheel</b> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /></font></font><p><a href="/wotmessageboard2showmessage.asp?MessageID=107993" target="_blank">New WoT quizzes!</a></p><p></p>


created: 2002-01-08 15:53:39
subject: <b>Well</b>
body:
I concur with Onarishma. I really doubt it was Callandor itself that deflected the balefire; rather, it was a weave Rand used. And as the theory's author said, the balefire continued to destroy things after it was split. So you see, Rand did not stop the balefire, he merely deflected it. Also, I am guessing that that particular weave requires a huge amount of Saidin, or maybe even a Talent, to be used. That would explain why Belal didn't try to do something similar when Moiraine fried him - he wasn't powerful enough.<br /><br />That's my two cents


created: 2002-01-08 18:16:17
subject: <b>Weave that deflects balefire</b>
body:
I'm not just imagining Moridin deflecting rand's balefire in Shadar Logoth, am I?<br /><br />That would be another clue to such a weave existing.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="blue"><img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /> <b>PROUDLY CELEBRATING 10 YEARS OF WOTMANIA!</b></font> <img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /><br /><br /><font color="purple"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <b>FAQ and WoT Admin</b></font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><font color="gray"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> <b>Part-time Philosopher of the Wheel</b> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /></font></font><p><a href="/wotmessageboard2showmessage.asp?MessageID=107993" target="_blank">New WoT quizzes!</a></p><p></p>


created: 2002-01-08 21:19:58
subject: <b>It was a weave</b>
body:
The balefire never actually hit Callandor.  Rand, instinctively, released flows through Callandor that split the balefire to either side of him.  Barely, he could still feel the heat of it's passage I believe.  Anyway, that means that there is a weave capable of diverting and splitting flows of balefire, but I'm going to guess it would require a huge amount of saidin, probably more than Rand could do with anything short of Callandor or the Choeden Kal.<br />As for Moridin blocking Rand's balefire... I don't remember that.  <br />And the gholam's reaction to Mat's medallion is... luck.  Mat's just so damn lucky he wound up with the only thing capable of hurting the creature when all he wanted was a similar immunity.  Luck.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bobbafett.gif" border="0" /> The_Last_Gunslinger<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> All that is Gold does not Glitter<br />    Not all those who Wander are Lost<br />    The Old that is Strong does not Wither<br />    Deep Roots are not reached by the frost<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gandalf.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-09 06:35:02
subject: <b>cuendillar</b>
body:
I'm pretty sure I read somewhere that Callendor is made from Cuendillar. it could just be that diverting the balefire.


created: 2002-01-09 12:48:19
subject: <b>Not Cuendillar</b>
body:
I don't think that callandor is made of cuendillar. The reason is that I recently read through all the books, and nothing like this was ever mentioned that I can recall. Also, I believe that the only things we have seen that are made of cuendillar have been harmless in themselves like bowls and cups. As I have said before, this further increases my belief that cuendillar was made by the Aiel in the AoL. They wouldn't have made something in the form of a sword.


created: 2002-01-09 22:15:11
subject: <b>Lot's of interesting thoughts here</b>
body:
First off I don't know if a Golam could be killed by balefire or not. My impression is no, they seem to nullify all other forms of the one power so I don't see why Balefire would be any different.  I do think it's one of those things we'll never know unless a channeler with the talent for balefire (or perhaps that rod that the black ajah has) were forced to go up against one and tried it out.<br /><br />   As for the thing with Callandor that's one of those questions that only RJ himself could answer. My guess would be that Rand split the flows, but it's just a hunch.<br /><br />   By the way, what's the talk about Moridin stopping Rands balefire? All I recall from their meeting at Shadar Logoth was that they crossed streams and got things mixed up in their heads. If that's a way to stop balefire then I don't think it'd be very effective. Sure something to do in an emergency, but it doesn't seem to halt it. After all, whoever struck first it's still clear that they took out Sammael so neither weave nullified the other.<br /><br />   By the way, does anyone else wonder what'd happen if Mats fox medallion were hit by Balefire?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-10 10:05:07
subject: <b>Bit confused there Lord...</b>
body:
You're right that the balefire's did cross each other and that they didn't nullify each other. However, the evidence for this is not that one of the beams took out Sammael, but that it hit mashadar so the reast fled. Moridin and Rand both have to run right afterwards because Sammael will definitely have felt Rand's use of the power, and lightning struck where they had been. Of course, Moridin's balefire was weaved from the True Power, so perhaps that makes a difference, but I doubt it.


created: 2002-01-11 13:21:47
subject: <b>Couldn't remember about the Balefire in SL</b>
body:
Thanks <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> Though I suppose I've only confused the issue now <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/oh.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="blue"><img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /> <b>PROUDLY CELEBRATING 10 YEARS OF WOTMANIA!</b></font> <img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /><br /><br /><font color="purple"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <b>FAQ and WoT Admin</b></font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><font color="gray"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> <b>Part-time Philosopher of the Wheel</b> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /></font></font><p><a href="/wotmessageboard2showmessage.asp?MessageID=107993" target="_blank">New WoT quizzes!</a></p><p></p>


created: 2002-01-15 04:00:03
subject: <b>Fate...</b>
body:
<br />...is my answer!<br /><br />Rand HAS to be alive in tLB. Fate helps him in and out of problems. No other explanation is needed.<br /><br />Thank you!<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />ULTIMATE J&#196;L&#196;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-01-25 07:35:42
subject: <b>Before I read the comments. . .</b>
body:
I just noticed that a few weeks back!<br />I thought maybe it is possible to weave some kind of defense, but wouldn't the forsaken know about it, if LTT does?<br />Maybe its power hunger, needing callandor, minimum, to make. (Hey, new field of research! High energy channeling!)<br /><br />Aha! But he stop it exactly, he redirected its path! Is it possible to interfere with someone elses weaving short of slicing it apart? Bah. I got nothing.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Reading: The Woodlanders - Thomas Hardy</font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-30 04:57:11
subject: <b>Callandor IS a sword that is not a sword...</b>
body:
It is stated repeatedly that Callandor is 'a sword that is not a sword', and this is usually taken to be that is a sa'angreal or its crystal transparency. What if the sword is only a physical manifestation for a much greater power, one that is outside space and time and therefore not susceptible to balefire?<br /><br />Callandor, like other sa'angreal and angreal, allows the wielder to control more of the One Power for a particular purpose than the wielder on his/her own. Therefore it could be that these, and perhaps ter'angreal as well, consist not only of a physical object as a focal point for the wielder to use, but also of weaves within the One Power itself that affects the flow into a wielder and therefore makes it easier to use more of.<br /><br />One could argue, if the above point is believed, that even if the weave within the One Power survives balefire its physical representitive, in this case the sword, could be destroyed. Therefore there is either a safeguard within the weave to protect its focal objects, or there is a consciousness (the Creator perhaps?) that can wield the limitless amount of the One Power and will protect them. <br /><br />The second at first seems wrong, as there are cases where power-wrought objects (usually terangreal) have been destroyed, such as the links to the Choedan Kal at the end of Winter's Heart - &quot;the figure was broken in two&quot;. But what if the consciousness was all-knowing, and knew exactly which objects to allow to be destroyed and which to survive through knowing which course would allow victory for the entity's cause? Therefore it could be either the Dark One or the Creator within the One Power, using it where possible, and perhaps sometimes one is in control, sometimes the other so the purposes that objects are destroyed depending on who is in control.<br /><br />I may have completely misunderstood how the One Power works in this explanation, but it does show where the Dark One is and that the &quot;bubbles of evil&quot; are created whenever the Dark One gets the upper hand. Plus at Shayol Ghul must be a terangreal or other object which is a relaible focal point for the Dark One to speak through.<br /><br />Zacyr Seroh, ToC<br />The rewards of tolerance are trechary and betrayal.<br />A moment of laxity spawns a lifetime of heresy.<br />Never forgive, never forget.<br />


created: 2002-04-19 10:24:41
subject: <b>Callendor as manifestation of something outside the Pattern</b>
body:
Inherently I dismiss theories which leap outside the universe RJ has created for us, whether they assume quantum physics work the same there or lay motives/actions/abilities at the feet of some &quot;Power from outside the Pattern.&quot;  Wholely possible, I suppose, but lazy since the whole point of these theories is to extrapolate from evidence provided in Jordan's books.  It's he cheap way out, if you will.  Now back to discussing these posts.<br /><br />Callendor is called 'the sword which is not a sword' because it looks, yep, that's right, like a sword.  So, with Callendor, you can't judge it just by what it looks like.  I believe that's all that is meant by the description, and probably agree with the other theories that Rand, working through the power of Callendor, split the balefire weave.  He couldn't stop it, mind, but he was able to misdirect it.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">The Great Crabuki<br /><br />Father of Emmaline Sedai <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Husband to Jennlene the Queenlene <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/berelain.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Making pretty babies since August 2001 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-14 12:51:55
subject: <b>Callandor is HeartStone</b>
body:
Ok, now I seem to remember that Moghedien told Nynaeve that not even balefire could destroy that black male a'dam, due to the fact that it was made of, now get ready..., HEARSTONE. Heartstone is immune to balefire. It has been stated in several books. I also believe that it was mentioned somewhere that Callandor is indeed heartstone, along with a few other angreal (of course I can't remember them...) Even if it is not directly stated, one can infer this from the comments that it could be used as a sword that would never break (ala Moraine in TSR) and also by the fact that the balefire flows were diverted. I hope this settles it.


created: 2002-08-11 22:15:21
subject: <b>maybe its rand</b>
body:
this theory focuses completly on things exterior to the people involved. Has it been considered that it has nothing to do with callandor but with rand himself. It may be that much like mat rand too has the memoies of hundreds of his former selves locked away deep in his mind. Hunderds perhaps thousnds of the most power full chanelers of their respective ages could most cirtainly find a way to allter even an absolute like balefire. And that is just one of the possiblities. That rand is the dragon is undisputable but what is the dragon? What unexplored depths lie in rand's mind and soul?


created: 2002-09-07 01:08:45
subject: <b>Balefire=Anti-Time</b>
body:
When you said balefire was &quot;an irresistable force, like time itself&quot;, the word anti-time just popped into my head. Could that be what balefire is? Backwards time, annhilating all the time (and the matter in it)it comes in contact with?


created: 2002-09-25 22:51:15
subject: <b>Splitting weaves</b>
body:
While I was reading this a thought came to mind. It's a fairly simple explanation.  We know first of all the Rand is a fairly strong channeler and that Callandor is one of the strongest sa'angreal ever created possibly second only to the &quot;Giant Statues&quot;. Also we know that the amount of OP that a sa'angreal lets you channel depends on your strength in the OP. So is it possible that adding together Rand's strength to the power factor of Callandor, Rand was channeling such insane amounts of the OP that it actually &quot;cut&quot; the balefire weave in half sending part of it to either side kinda like a log on a log splitter (horrible analog) but the pressure (force) behind the balefire weave could have been great enough that when it hit the &quot;edge&quot; of the MASSIVE amount of energy Rand was controlling is did the only thing it could which was to split. Also I would like to say the I totally disbelieve any theories concerning Callandor being some special force, and I believe that the books state that the &quot;flaw&quot; in Callandor is that unlike other angreal it won't stop you from channeling so much OP that you get fried, and that it somehow magnifies the Taint. Just some thoughts.


created: 2002-12-29 23:26:57
subject: <b>Assumptions</b>
body:
Everyone is assuming that is was balefire which Callandor deflected.  I don't htink it was.  I mean, if any white hot bar dealing with the Power has to be balefire, then was that what killed Lews Therin?  No, if it was, he wouldn't have been reborn, his soul would have ceased to exist.  Therefore, Callandor did nothing miraculous when deflecting hte bar.  It wasn't balefire.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Life is not tried it is merely survived if  you're standing outside the fire.&quot;<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> Kwestfall06 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-27 01:51:31
subject: <b>woah...</b>
body:
That is some wild thinking! It makes my head spin. Well, didn't lanfear say that with the two most powerful sa'angreal ever, you could CHALLENGE the dark one? Maybe callandor isn't as strong as that, but maybe it IS strong enough to overpower balefire... actually, in reality, it most likely WAS a mistake, and callandor was too important to the story to drop out.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" />~Master of the Ashandarei~<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> Kneel to the Lord Nae'blis or you will be knelt.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /> The Dark One's own luck... <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" />If you need a friend, look no further!! I like having friends...<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-28 00:58:53
subject: <b>Overlooking the obvious</b>
body:
Couldnt Rand subconsiously of created a shield at the last second made out of ...wait for it... a balefire like substance, and when Ishy's balefire hit rands balefire shield they deflect eachother since they both are invinvible.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-05-04 22:11:47
subject: <b>My 2 Cents</b>
body:
Well, first off, who ever said that only harmless items were made of heartstone, how about them powerwrought(sp?) swords of blademasters? i'm pretty sure they're heartstone<br /><br />secondly. i don't think the color of heartstone matters, hence the black a'dam for male channelers, which is a much different color that the seals for the DO's prison. so the fact that it's clear doesn't rule it out.<br /><br />then my real point. i'm going out on a leap of memories hear, so forgive me. gholams, weaves bend around them, right? same thing with mat's ammy, right? or do the weaves dissapate? well, if the weaves bend around, why can't there be an anti-Power aspect to the sword? i'm saying that maybe the blade functions just like mat's ammy. but then that makes you wonder how would the sa'angreal work if it had an anti-Power dealy with it? i dunno. most likely this is all wrong, so please don't hate me or hunt me down. <br /><br />


created: 2004-07-15 13:05:38
subject: <b>answer to Nos Cerddewr</b>
body:
if Balefire was Anti-time, you would think that someone could make an anti-balefire-weave(= time-weave)<br /><br />if such a weave was possible, then someone would have found it at some point. And that spell/weave would in practicality make a person subjected to it invulnerable.<br /><br />And i havent seen anyone around in &quot;Randland&quot; being that


created: 2004-08-23 19:28:30
subject: <b>Yeah Right...</b>
body:
All of this talk of bale fire has really got me thinking. Might it not be possible that instead of being (anti-time) it could actually be anti-matter. We all know that particles and anti-particles annihilate with massive amounts of force, and the balefire weave might just amplify that energy to the point that one begins to experience temporal distortions (the erasing of events. Bear with me, but the reason that it erases backwards in time is because the resulting *collision* produces tachyons, those notorious backwards time-traveling particles. This is my first time posting a comment to a theory, and I might have to make this into a theory to explain it fully. Feedback on my idiocy is appreciated. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br />


created: 2004-10-05 20:30:06
subject: <b>Sigh...</b>
body:
Ok, guys.  Let's read the passage from TDR:<br /><br />&quot;...a blazing shaft like the one Moiraine had made shot out of the shadows among the columns, straight toward his chest.  His wrist twisted the sword instinctively; it was instinct as much as anything that made him loose flows from saidin into Callandor, a flood of the Power that made the sword blaze brighter even than that bar streaking at him... The shaft of light struck the blade of Callandor -- and parted on its edge, forking to stream past on either side.&quot;<br /><br />And then a description of what the weave does to the columns:<br /><br />&quot;Behind him, the two prongs of frozen fire, of liquid light, struck huge redstone columns; where they struck, stone ceased to exist, and the burning bars bored through to other columns, serving those instantaneously as well.  The Heart of the Stone rumbled as columns fell and shattered in clouds of dust, sprays of stone as columns fell and shattered in clouds of dust, sprays of stone fragments.  What fell into the light, however, simply -- was not, anymore.&quot;  (TDR, paperback ed., p663)<br /><br />So! Looks like you guys should have read the books before posting.  Rand uses some weave, dredged out of the back of his mind (or LLT's, whatever) to PART the BF.  Also remember that Ishy and Rand are in Tel'aran'rhiod at the time... Who knows what can happen there?  Put this on top of the negative properties of Callandor that Cadsuane talked about, you can bet that Rand doesn't remember what weave he used to stop the BF.<br /><br />Look at the description of Callandor.  Consistently, Callandor's brightness is directly proportional to the power of the weave that is being used (check out the description of Rand ramming Callandor into the Heart of the Stone).  So you can also bet that Rand, by himself, probably even with the little-fat-man-angreal, wherever it is, isn't strong enough to duplicate this weave.<br /><br />So!  Hopefully this will put a stop to all this discussion...<br /><br />1.  Rand used a weave to split the BF.<br />2.  It was in Tel'aran'rhiod.  Anything can happen there.


created: 2004-12-04 00:25:17
subject: <b>Refraction.</b>
body:
It's all in refraction.  The sword is a transparent crystal, and Balefire is a ray.  A ray passing through a transparent crystal is refracted, or bent.  It could be that, if the ray hits the two facets at different angles, the halves that hit those facets bend in different directions, thus splitting the Balefire in half and sending it off to the side.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Behold, my loyal armies...<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/myrddraal.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-12-09 12:40:31
subject: <b><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /></b>
body:
The wheel weaves as the wheel wills<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" />


created: 2006-05-30 17:47:09
subject: <b>It was just the INSANE amounts of Saidin.</b>
body:
Callandor just had so much saidin in it, and the one power is infinite and cannot be destroyed, so the balefire parted. No Heartstone, no weave, no anything, just saidin.<br /><br />The simplest explanation is usually right. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />And to the &quot;time weave&quot; check out Avienda's gateway in Path of Daggers.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br />That is all<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-07 15:54:44
subject: <b>Just a minor note on the King Arthur Legend</b>
body:
In most of the King Arthur legend stories Excalibur is not the  sword in the stone but one that Artur reveives from the lady of the lake after the one he pulls out of the stone breaks. Excalibur is not the sword from the stone in 97% of athur legends<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> LordDrgn <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-07 17:03:25
subject: <b>I aways thought that the 3 women were his ladies.</b>
body:
I thought Min said that she was one of them, didn't she? Could be on crack, though.<br /><br />Huh. Go figure.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-07 18:34:37
subject: <b>oh guess what else!?</b>
body:
I did some more research and found that another name for Vivien was Nineve/Nyneve.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br />From the ones I read the legends were about equal with Excalibur.  Could be that Jordan'll do both....  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br />I'm not really sure if Min did say something.  I remember her saying that she knew she'd fall in love with Rand but I can't remember if she said one was her or not...  Anybody remember?  I'll take a look at the books.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sigone Sedai <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-07 23:02:37
subject: <b>Three on the boat / around Rand's funeral bier</b>
body:
I have noted down a few prophecies that might be of help here, specifically about the three around Rand and his death...<br />---------<br /><blockquote> <b>Nicola, Book 6, Chapter 14, &quot;Dreams and Nightmares&quot; </b> <br />The lion sword, the dedicated spear, she who sees beyond. Three on the boat, and he who is dead yet lives. <br /><br /><b>Wise Ones, Book 6, Chapter 19, &quot;Matters of Toh&quot; </b> <br />Melaine and Bair dreamed of you [Rand] on a boat with three women whose faces they could not see and a scale tilting first one way and then the other. </blockquote><br />The second prophecy tells us the identity of the dead guy - Rand. The first one tells us who the women are. Lion Sword --&gt; Elayne, Dedicated Spear --&gt; Aviendha, She Who Sees Beyond --&gt; Min. In the second prophecy, &quot;a scale tilting first one way and then the other&quot; presumable refers to &quot;he who is dead yet lives&quot;, i.e. a precarious balance between life and death. The implication is that it is the three women who are responsible for the change in state of Rand from dead to alive. <br /><br /><blockquote> <b>Min, Book 1, Chapter 15, &quot;Strangers and Friends&quot; </b> <br />three woman standing over a funeral bier with him [Rand] on it, A bloody hand and a white hot iron, and black rocks wet with blood. <br /><br /><b>Rand, Book 6, Chapter 49, &quot;The Mirror of Mists&quot; </b> <br />[Rand]&quot;Trust me, Min. I won't hurt you. I will cut off my arm before I hurt you.&quot; She was silent, and he finally looked round to find her peering at him with a strange expression. &quot;That's very nice to hear, sheepherder.&quot; Her voice was as odd as her face. <br /><br /><b> Elayne, Book 2, Chapter 24, &quot;New Friends and Old Enemies&quot; </b> &lt;br&gt;<br />One of the things she [Min] said she saw looking at me was a severed hand. Not mine, she says. <br /><br /><b> Min, Book 2, Chapter 43, &quot;A Plan&quot; </b><br />above Elayne's [head], a red-hot iron and an axe. They meant trouble, she was sure, but it seemed distant, somewhere in the future. </blockquote><br />The first prophecy links us with the thread of the three women, so is related to the above. Elayne has a severed hand that isn't hers, and Rand has a bloody hand. In Elayne's other viewing there is a red hot iron, Rand has a white hot iron. Add the second passage, which is almost certinaly a viewing from Min, and it is clear that Rand will lose his hand. The instrument will probably be the &quot;axe&quot; of Elayne's second viewing. Note that Min felt this was &quot;distant, somewhere in the future&quot; which supports the view that this will happen after TG.


created: 2002-01-09 22:35:28
subject: <b>Jumping to conclusions there...</b>
body:
Sorry but the viewings about hands that Min have had don't clearly indicate that Rand will lose a hand. They may give that impression, but they don't make it certain. First off we don't know if they are the same hand being viewed.  The one involving Elayne is severed, and the other one is bloody. Very similar, but not necessarily the same.  Nothing is ever said to specifically indicate that either hand belongs to Rand. All we know is that the hand Min viewed over Elayne is hers (Elaynes that is). The bloody hand that she viewed in refference to Rand isn't ever designated as belonging to him or not. <br /><br />   I don't think it's entirely out of the question that Rj is hinting at this and that it could come to pass that Rand loses a hand. However, it could be a bit of carefully planned misdirection with another result altogether.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-10 10:12:18
subject: <b>I think you</b>
body:
mean the only thing we know about the severed hand is that it ISN'T Elayne's...but as it's her aura it's gotta be connected with her.<br /><br />All the hand business...I can't really think of the circumstances that would fit it all, but my mind always seems to come back to that male adam that two women have to wear on their wrists...surely it's gonna be used at some point, it's been in the story too much not to be, whether by the light or the shadow....perhaps that has something to do with it.


created: 2002-01-12 07:48:45
subject: <b>where have you been?</b>
body:
this is simply a rehash of already known theories out there.  i had pretty much thought everybody had figured this out for themselves or had at least read all the other theories already posted concerning the connection to Arturian Mythos.  yes, we know of the similarities to arthur and rand.  by the way, did you know that similarities between rand and, dare i say it, jesus christ, abound in the WOT?  or did you just forget to look (the most obvious being the title 'Crown of Swords')?  why don't you figure out where demandred is and then we'll all be impressed!


created: 2002-01-12 11:30:46
subject: <b>some more research done &amp; exactly where I have been</b>
body:
I thought of a way that all Rand's three ladies would fit into the three women standing over Rand and still be in relation to the King Arthur legend. Elayne as before will still fit. I think that The Queen of the Wastelands would be Aviendha and that The Queen of the Northgalis would be Min. I found that the Queen of the Northgalis was called Madon, as it turns out she was a prophetess.  I also found that the Queen of the Wastelands had connections to a woman called A vavasour Dinas through Nimue.  She was called 'Loathly Lady'.  I'll see if I can't find some more in this.  <br /><br />I also found another interesting connection with 'The Lady of the Lake.'  Another one of her names was Alaida.  <br /><br />I think these are some interesting play on names.<br /><br /><br />And now, let me retort to the last post.  First, I haven't been a member of this community long enough to know that there were that many other Arthurian posts, upon just checking I found only one.  Second, I found it interesting that it took you as long to lash out at me as it did to read my post.  Perhaps I am not as astute as you but I have been a fan of the books for several years here, and have just stumbled upon this myself.  But I do have to say; keep your abuse to yourself, if this is something that's been talked about so much that you are sick of it, then simply pass this post by.  Where I come from belittling someone that way is a shortcut to thinking.  <br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sigone Sedai <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-12 15:07:53
subject: <b>Amen!</b>
body:
Amen Sigone!  You tell 'em.  <br /><br />Nice research, nice conclusions.  <br /><br />Oh, and another thing, to whoever said it to Sigone...many times things have been discussed a lot but either in chat or on the message boards.  Just because something has been discussed in those two places does not mean there shouldn't be a theory about in it in the theory post.  Plus, come on, take it easy on a newbie!<br /><br />Back to the point, I like the research and effort you put into this theory (and have continued to add on your blackboard comments).  Good Job!<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" />  &quot;Until Nynaeve quits yankin' that braid,<br />     May you find water and shade.&quot;  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" />  Vote Logain for M'Hael


created: 2002-01-14 12:37:42
subject: <b>Thanks!</b>
body:
Thanks Logain!  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sigone Sedai <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-19 13:36:27
subject: <b>Merlin in the WoT series</b>
body:
I think I have discovered who Merlin is in the WoT series too.  I believe that he is divided into two people.  Them being Moiraine and Lan.  Placing the two names together and shortening Moiraine's we get Morlan.  Pretty darn close.  Also, the love/hate relationship that Nimue had with Merlin, I think that the love is with Lan for Nynaeve and hate for Moiraine.  In the King Arthur legends, Merlin was placed in a tower by Nimue.  I think that the Tower in question is the Tower of Ghenji even though Nynaeve didn't place her there.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sigone Sedai <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-07 16:46:44
subject: <b>Merlin in WoT</b>
body:
I agree that Merlin is split into 2 people, but I think it's Moraine and Thom. If you mix up Thom's last name with Moraine and throw in her channeling, poof, Merlin!  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gandalf.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br />Speaking of Merlin, I was watching the movie &quot;Merlin&quot; over the weekend. Anyone have as idea on who Mordred compares to in Wot? I'm thinking Demandred. Aside from Moridin (a second possiblity) no other male Forsaken have been around enough. Well, they have, but they're toast now. (Anyone else think Be'lal was kinda cheated out of being involved in the series?)<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Long Live Taimandred! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sammy.gif" border="0" /><br />Cybrmnk <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gandalf.gif" border="0" /> -One of the last remaining believers in the Taimandred theory.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-04 17:46:55
subject: <b>ARTUR HAWKWING = KING ARTHUR</b>
body:
firstly the names are vastly simaler! secondly there is a arthurian legend i have read where arthur completely turns against alvalon (as artur hawkwing turns against tar valon)<br />lastly (is lastly a word?) in almost all arthurian legends the people loved arthur and he was a great hero, sorta like... ARTUR HAWKWING!


created: 2002-10-07 02:15:47
subject: <b>some more parallels</b>
body:
I couldn't find any other Arthurian posts either, so I figured I'd share some more parallels that I've found.  Sorry if you've already seen them <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />  Jordan draws on Arthurian legend for a lot of his characters' names &amp; personas.  There are some obvious ones, like al'Thor = Arthur, but there are other (sometimes obscure) ones that I took note of.  You guys already have Tigraine = Igraine, Nynaeve = Nyneve (Vivian), Morgase = Morgause, and Tar Valon = Avalon.  There's also Artur Paendrag Tanreall = Arthur Pendragon, Luthair Paendrag = Uther Pendragon, Thom Merrilin = Merlin, Egwene al&#8217;Vere (sound it out) = Guenevere, Elayne = Elaine, Gawyn = Sir Gawain, Galad = Sir Galahad, Callandor = Caliburnus (Excalibur), sa'angreal = Sangreal (Holy Grail), Gareth Bryne = Sir Gareth, Moiraine = Morgaine (Morgan le Fay), Lan = Sir Lancelot, Darkhounds = Cabal, Caemlyn = Camelot, Urien = Sir Urien, and Bors (Carridin) = Sir Bors.  Sometimes the characters' physical descriptions even match up, like with Thom and Merlin.


created: 2003-07-07 02:21:57
subject: <b>theory post is turning into....</b>
body:
What the hell is the theory post coming to? I thought everyone already knew all this and wasnt worthy enough to be put on the theory post... Oh well...<br /><br />MERLIN IS NOT MOIRAINE OR THOM!!! ITS JUST PURE COINCIDENCE YOU PINHOLES!!!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Short and sweet</font><p></p>


created: 2004-10-12 20:13:41
subject: <b>RJ said so</b>
body:
I heard Robert Jordan speak a few years ago. He said he wanted to draw from Arthurian archetypes (not his exact words) but didn't want to be writing &quot;just another d.mn.d Arthur story&quot; as there were many retellings on the market at the time. So the story is intended to be fresh, but many allusions are there and are intended to be meaningful.<br /><br />It's just my opinion, but clearly Verin's study, complete with owl, is a reference to T.H. White's The Once and Future King.


created: 2006-03-30 18:36:54
subject: <b>Mordred</b>
body:
I have heard many possibilities as to who could be the Mordred archetype in WoT. Some of them are appealing, while others are not, but there can really be no conclusive answer to the question at this time. I am far more familiar with the Arturian Legend in all its varients than I am with WoT, but extensive knowledge of the subject does little to clear things up. Quite the contrary, as in many other cases, the more you know about the Arthurian tradition, the more questions it raises.<br /><br />Mordred is a wildcard in the Arthurian series, and has taken many different forms at different time. He has been portrayed as an incompetant king, a pompous prince, an accomplished soldier, knight, or mercenary, a cripple, a sick boy, and many other possibilities. The only near-constants concerning his character is that he is usually a villian - often a traitor - and that he is often related to Arthur in some way. This varies, with some stories placing him as a son -  legitimate of bastard - while others place him as an older or younger brother to the High King, or even a cousin or nephew (the later two being quite rare). In any case, my point is that if there is a Mordred archetype, which their very well may be, it would be impossible to predict who he is. Arthurian authors have produced so many unique characters using the same name, that there are truly no clear idicators to show who in WoT would be Mordred. To do so we would have to find which version(s) of the legend Jordan drew his influence from, and even then it would be no easy feat.<br /><br />Just as an added comment, I found it interesting that in WoT, assuming the Hawkwing-Pendragon connection is at least fact as far as names go (which I believe it quite clearly is) the Uther-Arthur father son  relationship is reversed. No theory behind this, just found it rather odd.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Honk if your Demandred... Please!&quot;<br /><br />Jak'O</font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-07 17:00:16
subject: <b>It wasn't serpentine, was it?</b>
body:
I remember it being more like a wooly Mamoth, or a Sabretoothed tiger. It certianly was not serpentine.<br /><br />Oh, and Dragons don't have tusks.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-07 18:09:11
subject: <b>Elephantine?</b>
body:
I always thought it was a pachyderm of some sort. Big creature, stands higher than (?) (can't remember quote..) with big tusks.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Jeremias <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sleepy.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-07 18:38:00
subject: <b>You beat me to it...</b>
body:
I came with the intention of saying the EXACT things you guys just said...Dragons DON'T have Tusks <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />And it was most likely an elephant or a close relative to one.  <br /><br />p.s.  15 Votes and 100% No's...How long do you think that'll hole up?  LoL<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">http://www.ffac.org</font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-07 19:13:35
subject: <b>Elephant!!</b>
body:
It was probably an elephant which no one to that time had seen in Tarabon.  The Seanchan had not yet invaded except the Falme encounter.


created: 2002-01-07 19:29:11
subject: <b>Different realms</b>
body:
the creature in Tanchico is most likly to be one of thoes creatures that came from a different realm using the portal stones then they died off. Just like how the Seachean ride beasts from a different realms<br /><br />Dragons don't have tusks too


created: 2002-01-07 19:55:57
subject: <b>Tusk</b>
body:
I guess I don't have to explain the dragons not having tusks part.<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/frown.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-01-08 00:08:22
subject: <b>Tends to Mirror Our World</b>
body:
The WoT world has long tended to mirror ours in certain ways.  Why shouldn't there be a fossil record of prehistoric beasts?  Please get off the &quot;Dragons&quot; kick.  I just want to know what the AoL myth was concerning dragons that gave LTT that moniker.


created: 2002-01-08 10:32:10
subject: <b>Dragons</b>
body:
&quot;I just want to know what the AoL myth was concerning dragons that gave LTT that moniker.&quot;<br /><br />Actually, I think I'm right in saying that the word Dragon wasn't in use until the people of the time needed a name for the creature on LTT's banner and called it a dragon. Names have to come from somewhere, sometimes it's just from people's imaginations (like the word Trolloc's comes from Jordan's imagination...doesn't it?).


created: 2002-01-08 13:50:07
subject: <b>Hmmm...</b>
body:
The serpentine threw me off too...maybe someone better have a look.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="blue"><img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /> <b>PROUDLY CELEBRATING 10 YEARS OF WOTMANIA!</b></font> <img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /><br /><br /><font color="purple"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <b>FAQ and WoT Admin</b></font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><font color="gray"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> <b>Part-time Philosopher of the Wheel</b> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /></font></font><p><a href="/wotmessageboard2showmessage.asp?MessageID=107993" target="_blank">New WoT quizzes!</a></p><p></p>


created: 2002-01-08 21:35:38
subject: <b>It's a wooly mammoth</b>
body:
It was a wooly mammoth.  It had four legs and stood very tall, and had long CURVED tusks.  It was a wooly mammoth.<br /><br />p.s. I believe, though this is just a guess based on a pheonetical symmilarity, that 'trollocs' comes from 'trologs', which was the actual name of the trolls in JRR Tolkien's supremely great works, which were about a million times better than WoT.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bobbafett.gif" border="0" /> The_Last_Gunslinger<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> All that is Gold does not Glitter<br />    Not all those who Wander are Lost<br />    The Old that is Strong does not Wither<br />    Deep Roots are not reached by the frost<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gandalf.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-09 06:30:03
subject: <b>Just a thought...</b>
body:
Well, why &quot;must&quot; dragons exist in WoT-world just because they are pictured om Rands arms, for example?<br />Do they exist in our world?<br />No!<br />And, yet they are pictured here as well... Even mentioned in various books...<br /><br />


created: 2002-01-11 11:22:50
subject: <b>Lord Dragon</b>
body:
I agree that there probably aren't any dragons in WOT but why is Lewis Therin being called Lord Dragon, and why does he have a banner with a dragon on?<br /><br />If dragons don't exist, how do they know how it looks like to make a banner. Or is it just a mythical figure in WOT just as it is in our world...<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" />Belgium's best kept secret <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /><br />!! vote for Wesley Clark !!<br /><br />give me a freeking job will ya!!</font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-11 13:25:04
subject: <b>Just a myth..</b>
body:
..the way Unicorns, Griffons, Chimera  and Dragons etc appear on family crests in our world.<br /><br />And RJ said without a doubt that they never existed. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="blue"><img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /> <b>PROUDLY CELEBRATING 10 YEARS OF WOTMANIA!</b></font> <img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /><br /><br /><font color="purple"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <b>FAQ and WoT Admin</b></font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><font color="gray"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> <b>Part-time Philosopher of the Wheel</b> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /></font></font><p><a href="/wotmessageboard2showmessage.asp?MessageID=107993" target="_blank">New WoT quizzes!</a></p><p></p>


created: 2002-01-11 13:29:43
subject: <b>Where did they come from?</b>
body:
If dragons don't exist and never did, then where did the people come up with it? Personally, I think dragons exist or existed in this world, so why not Randland?  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-01-12 01:58:11
subject: <b>Duhhh!</b>
body:
Ever heard of a thing caled woolly mamoths. Known for it's tusks? I got it the minute I heard the description.


created: 2002-01-22 13:55:37
subject: <b>Dragons aren't real in Randland, but...</b>
body:
Dragons aren't real in Randland, but I'm sure there was some type of animal in the ancient past that helped ppl get ideas about them, like here on earth.  People here saw dinosaur fossils and decided they must've been some type of scary creature, thus thought of the idea of dragons.  <br /><br />Similarly, people may have seen fossils and invented dragons in Randland. The fossils were probably destroyed in the Breaking, though, since the idea of dragons was thought up around that time. In present day Randland, people don't talk about dragons for more than talking about the Dragon Reborn.<br /><br />I don't think the fossil described above was a &quot;dragon.&quot;  I agree with all the ppl who already commented on that issue.  It was an elephant or mammoth, something of the like.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">LaSombra <br /><br />&quot;Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.&quot; Benjamin Franklin<br /><br />&lt;3 Joe<br />*lurves her rock*<br />* Aes sedai to Great Lord of Chaos *</font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-13 07:18:35
subject: <b>As a matter of fact, dragons exist(ed)</b>
body:
If your minds have been in dreamland the last months, I will forgive you for not knowing this:<br /><br />In the news (several times on different channels (CNN)) it has been reported that they now have found remnants of large serpentine creatures with wings in China. The worst/coolest thing about this discovery is that the skeleton they have found seems to be only about 20 000 years old. The conclusion amongst the chinese people (and scientists) have been that they now believe that their myths and legends may have realistic backgrounds. To say the truth, I didn't believe one word of what they said on the news until I saw pictures of the skeleton (man, it was HUGE!).<br /><br />This discovery only adds to the fact that RJ reflects the real world in his books.<br /><br />Well, that's my rant for today...


created: 2002-06-04 17:36:50
subject: <b>to'raken</b>
body:
Dragons = To'raken... Smooth the t and k, and it's almost exactly the same word, plus they do look similar... Also, I forget which Seanchan says it, but she/he says that to'raken are only fit to carry burdens, and that fits with what the Dragon has to cope with very well...


created: 2002-09-16 16:45:05
subject: <b>dragons...</b>
body:
I think that it would be nice if there were dragons in randland, but considering that RJ said that there are no dragons in randland, then that probably wasn't a dragon.  I think maybe that skeleton that Egwene saw was an animal sorta like a sabor tooth maybe.  Who knows...  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/egwene.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="blue">Lady Faile t'Bashera</font><br /><font color="darkblue">The last of the Gunslingers and of the Katet 19</font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/disapprove.gif" border="0" /><br /><font color="green">Urza's and Jojjo's Aes Sedai!</font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shakefist.gif" border="0" /><br /><font color="blue">Aes Sedai to Rand the Dragon Reborn</font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br /><i><font color="red">New mistress to Sheep and Delireus!</font></i> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-12-10 09:14:23
subject: <b>I agree with Chora up there...</b>
body:
Everyone is aware that the Seanchan slur their letters so bad that not many from Rand's continent could really understand them. <br />Plus, being hybrid descendants of AoL-descended people and Hawkwing's era (both languages would have to have been closer to the Old Tongue than modern Randlanders...) the To'Raken name was simply their adaptation from Dragon, which may or may not have existed factually in the AoL.<br /><br />And to clarify, IT WAS AN ELEPHANT SKELETON. You know, like what the Seanchan have?<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/seanchan.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/seanchan.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/seanchan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">The lateness has come to the thrashing.<br /><br />Visit www.aww-mud.org and click Telnet.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-04-07 09:48:14
subject: <b>Egwene didn't saw dragons!</b>
body:
In Tarabon, there is a palace, and in the palace there are bones of some ancient animal. THAT ANIMAL IS A DINASOUR!!!!<br />NOT A DRAGON!!!!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /> an angel reborn <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-04-27 18:42:04
subject: <b>how can you be that stupid?</b>
body:
dragons have tusks? when was that decided? apparently either i missed something vital here or you're just an idiot.


created: 2005-05-06 11:54:05
subject: <b>raken</b>
body:
ever though that maybe somebody just seen a raken or to'raken...and needed a name for it so they came up with dragon...they could have seen the raken/to'raken in one of those mirrow-worlds <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> and for that matter 'dragons' could have existed in our world 'the real one'...some anciet race could have seen some teradactles and thought they needed a name...dont know why it would be dragon tho...


created: 2008-07-19 11:33:00
subject: <b>Dragons have tusks?</b>
body:
There IS a Dragon in Wotworld - his name is Rand al'Thor.<br /><br />The traditional dragons are fictional creatures, whose to say they don't have tusks? I'm sure there is or was a story somewere in witch a dragon had tusks.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Don't say always, don't say never.</font><p></p>


created: 2009-01-30 10:20:46
subject: <b>What is so hard</b>
body:
If RJ said there are no dragons there are no dragons .Stick to what you know to be true .I think the author would know.


created: 2002-01-07 16:57:52
subject: <b>I have always thought this way.</b>
body:
That proxies quote always gets overlooked!<br /><br />One thing, though: RJ said that we should know where ALL of the Forsaken are (or was it WHO they are? Little help, please!). So while I agree with you that these people are working for him (except Masema. He just doesn't fit.), I have to disagree that he is completley behind the scenes. <br /><br />EVERYONE KNOWS HE'S TAIM!!! (heh. J/K)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-07 18:13:21
subject: <b>Demandred-dred all the way.</b>
body:
To be sure, it always seemed pretty obvious that he wasn't really any character that we know of directly (well, once taimandred was taken out of the equation I was a true believer).<br /><br />IMHO, he's influencing the Prophet (compulsion anyone?), but I'm banking my life savings on it, so please don't flame me down.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Jeremias <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sleepy.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-07 20:01:22
subject: <b>I hate doing this but...</b>
body:
I don't have any books in front of me but I've been working on a theory that Demandred has been influencing the Prophet (who is definetly spreading choas). In WH, there's mention of a man near the Prophet when he and Perrin are about to search for Faile. Might that be him?<br />If someone else wants to add their two cents (or a whole dollar) please do.<br />)=


created: 2002-01-07 22:55:40
subject: <b>Sammael was wrong...</b>
body:
<blockquote> <i>Book 6, &quot;Threads Woven in Shadow&quot; </i> <br />He cut in sharply. &quot;You deliver a message to Demandred from me. Tell him I know what he is up to.&quot; Events to the south had Demandred's mark all over them. Demandred always liked using proxies. &quot;Tell him to be careful. I won't have him or his friends interfering in my plans.&quot; Perhaps he could direct al'Thor's attention there; that would likely put an end to him. If other means did not work. &quot;So long as they stear clear of me, his lackeys can carve out what he wants, but they will steer clear or he will answer for it.&quot;</blockquote><br />Sammael thinks that Demandred is in the south, but we shouldn't leap to conclusions. Sammael doesn't have a great track record. In the very same conversation with Greandal as the above quote, he said:<br /><blockquote><i> Book 6, &quot;Threads Woven of Shadow&quot; </i> <br />&quot;I would have had his [Rand's] head in the Stone of Tear, except that someone sent trollocs and myrddraal to save him! That was Lanfear, I am certain. </blockquote><br />He was certain. And wrong. From Semirhage's PoV in the same chapter again:<br /><blockquote> <i> Book 6, &quot;Threads Woven in Shadow&quot; </i> <br />Their uneasy alliance - if it could be called by so strong a name - had lasted a long time, but neither would tell her if they received secret orders from the Great Lord, any more than she would ever let them learn of the orders that had brought her here, or those that had had her send Myrddraal and Trollocs to the Stone of Tear to battle those sent by Sammael. </blockquote><br />So, Sammael might well have been wrong. What was his quote refering to, though? &quot;carve out what he wants&quot; and &quot;lackeys&quot; implies that he is talking about an army. Add &quot;south&quot; but &quot;stear clear of me&quot; and its obvious he means the Seanchan, who are busy preparing their invasion. But from book 9 it is clear that Semirhage as Anath is the Forsaken behind the second Seanchan campaign. So Sammael was wrong all along - he thought Demandred was behind the Seanchan. And he wasn't. So Demandred isn't necessarily in the south.


created: 2002-01-08 08:14:08
subject: <b>Demandred</b>
body:
might well be using proxies, it doesn't mean he isn't disguised as someone else (Norry) too. After all, it would hardly be difficult for him to get to them, he can just Travel.


created: 2002-01-08 13:51:00
subject: <b>Very good points, kenco!</b>
body:
I have never read anything like that before.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>F&#246;r &#246;vrigt anser jag att Mordor b&#246;r f&#246;rst&#246;ras.</i></font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-08 19:25:53
subject: <b>Kenco</b>
body:
Kenco, Kudos to you on your thoughts. But! Where is Demandred at? Even a general location could point a figure to him.<br /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /> He who hides in the shadows <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gandalf.gif" border="0" />  He who knows much <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gandalf.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" /> He who sees all <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> He who should have listened to his mother about playing with fire <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <br />


created: 2002-01-09 16:38:40
subject: <b>Kenco</b>
body:
Sammael was in Arad Doman when he was thinking about the South. That would mean he is talking about Ghealdan Amadacia and Tarabon. I think that he is referring to the Dragonsworn. Masema would be a proxy.<br /><br />There isn't a specific proxy in the Seanchan, and they had fled after Falme. <br /><br />I don't think Sammael was wrong about Demandred, I don't think he means the Seanchan. Illian is very far away from Falme and Tarabon.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="blue"><img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /> <b>PROUDLY CELEBRATING 10 YEARS OF WOTMANIA!</b></font> <img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /><br /><br /><font color="purple"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <b>FAQ and WoT Admin</b></font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><font color="gray"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> <b>Part-time Philosopher of the Wheel</b> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /></font></font><p><a href="/wotmessageboard2showmessage.asp?MessageID=107993" target="_blank">New WoT quizzes!</a></p><p></p>


created: 2002-01-09 16:41:48
subject: <b>Where oh where could he be?</b>
body:
In one spot in WOT, a Forsaken said it was unbelievable that the Dark One placed Demended and Semiraghe in their current locations.<br />In an interview, Robert Jordan said we should be able to figure out where every Forsaken is located (mind you this is Robert Jordan talking, the same guy who thought we should have no problem figuring out Asmo's killer)<br />If we know where Demanded is? Is he with the Seanchan like Semiraghe?<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/oh.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-01-09 17:27:46
subject: <b>It says that</b>
body:
The events in the south have his MARK all over them, it does not say that he is in the south.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-09 23:13:07
subject: <b>Hmm... there may be something here.</b>
body:
Okay so according to RJ we should have enough info to pinpoint all the Forsaken. So this should mean we have enough info in the books (even if we can't fit it all together) to figure out the mysteries of Demandred and Mesaana (she's another discussion all together).<br /><br />   Well since WH has proven the theory of Taimedred to be bogus we haven't got any obvious looking candidates. Of all the ones suggested, Halwin Norry is the only one so far that doesn't have some kind of major problem that disqualifies him. He doesn't seem too obvious though, just the best possiblity presented thus far.<br /><br />   So maybe the truth has been there all along under our noses. Perhaps Demandred isn't masquerading as anyone else. He wouldn't be the only one who hasn't set themselves up in a permanent disguise. All the guises that Lanfear used where temporary, she never had an alias that hse spent a great deal of time bulding power for. <br /><br />   With one person that isn't too convincing yet the idea seems plausible.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-10 00:48:44
subject: <b>m2k</b>
body:
Sammael wasn't refering to the Seanchan in Falme. He was refering to the second wave that was coming in the south - Ebou Dar and Amadicia. <br /><br />Dragonsworn aren't a problem for him. In the ruins of Tarabon they hold sway, but they wouldn't have a chance against Illian. &quot;So long as they stear clear of me, his lackeys can carve out what he wants&quot; Sammael says. The Seanchan certianly did a much better job of carving a portion of the world out than the Dragonsworn. An army the size of the Seanchan he has a right to fear.


created: 2002-01-11 03:02:36
subject: <b>thoughts on Tremalking</b>
body:
Tremalking is south of Arad Doman...how come no one's asked if maybe Demandred is there?<br /><br />Just a thought.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">By now the whole of her life has been traded like a pawn<br />That's why she knows the price...of living with the safety on</font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-11 13:38:41
subject: <b>But kenco...</b>
body:
The Seanchan had not landed there when Sammael was thinking that. If he knew anything, and I don't see that he could, he would know they were gathering on the Sea Folk isles at the time. Since none of these events had happened at the time he can't really refer to events in the south as Ebou Dar and Amadicia. <br /><br />If there were any Seanchan at all, the nearest they would be is Tarabon. The remnants of Falme. Look on the map of the Westlands to see how many miles that is from him Illian. Even Ebou Dar is quite far.<br /><br />The Dragonsworn, however, are in Nothern Altara, Ghealdan, Murandy and Amadicia already. The Dragonsworn are a good way of 'dirtying' the good name of the Dragon Reborn. An excellent way at getting back at Lews Therin. Definately Demandred's style. How can the Seanchan be his style?<br /><br />I suppose you could say that the use of proxies is the style he is referring to, but who is the Seanchan proxy? And how would Sammael know who they are? The Dragonsworn's is quite obviously Masema, whom Sammael would have definately heard of.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="blue"><img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /> <b>PROUDLY CELEBRATING 10 YEARS OF WOTMANIA!</b></font> <img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /><br /><br /><font color="purple"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <b>FAQ and WoT Admin</b></font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><font color="gray"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> <b>Part-time Philosopher of the Wheel</b> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /></font></font><p><a href="/wotmessageboard2showmessage.asp?MessageID=107993" target="_blank">New WoT quizzes!</a></p><p></p>


created: 2002-01-15 13:30:02
subject: <b>I so very much enjoy reading the theories board....</b>
body:
While I do like this theory quite a bit, RJ has already pretty much told us that ALL of the Forsaken are accounted for in the text at some point or the other, and that the ability to 'reason out' who is who, is there.  Based on that, I don't think that it would be viable to believe that Demandred is hiding off in his log cabin, fishing, and smoking the mysterious 'tabac'  (aka, crackpipe).   If all of the Forsaken have made themselves known in the text in some fashion, then Demandred must be a character with at least a sentence of noteworthy mention.  (I do like the way you keyed in on the 'proxy' portion though, because I have for quite awhile contended that Mazrim Taim (or perhaps Bashere) were in fact normal people turned somehow (compulsion / DF etc.) to do the work of the Shadow.)<br /><br />The part that makes me think that Mazrim isn't involved with Demandred directly (aka, his proxy) is because of something I read in the latter portions of WH, specifically the last (2) chapters.  When Demandred stumbles upon 2 women and an older man walking in the woods, he perceives them as nothing more then a mild curiosity.  As he gets closer he thinks perhaps they are Aes Sedai with their Warder.  His sudden shock, and dismay, at learning that the man is in fact an Asha'man and the way he words it &quot;...this apparently was one of those Asha'man he had heard about.&quot; makes it seem more distant.  If Mazrim were A. Demandred or B. Working in direct support of Demandred, then Demandred in that POV sequence would have had a much better idea of either, in the case of A. EXACTLY who the man was and that he was Asha'man, or in the case of B. Would (I would think) have thought in his POV something to the effect of, &quot;...here is one of those Asha'man my proxy/ slave/ servant has been creating.&quot;  I think a different hand pulls Mazrims strings.  Moridin?  He seems to have his hand in a great many things.   As always I do like the theory, though I find a few holes in it. And as always...I don't have an alternate that's better to offer up in exchange.<br /><br /><br />Also, the master of spies for the Whitecloaks, now traveling with Faile and Perrin.  He has become disturbingly inoquious lately.  If I were going to point a finger at anyone for potentially reader-shocking events to come, I'd say watch him.  Eamon Valda as well.  We haven't heard the last of them yet.


created: 2002-01-15 13:36:17
subject: <b>To corrent myself above, &quot;innocuous&quot;</b>
body:
I was rushing to type this while at work, and post it quickly before the powers that be noticed me not doing my 'analyst' thingie, they call a job.  The market is bad, we know this!  What we don't know is where Demandred is, and frankly...that's more of a concern to me right now damn it!  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />   I promise no future spelling errors, even if I rush.


created: 2002-01-16 20:45:22
subject: <b>Kenco</b>
body:
The lackeys who could finish Rand off at the time of LoC would be the Seanchan. Nobody else has the strength. <br /><br />The proxy is Suroth who is a darkfriend.<br /><br />She has absolutely no idea who Anath truly is. Why? Because she is taking orders from Demandred and Semirhage was handling her 'wilful female charge' in Seanchan at the time of Sammaels comments.


created: 2002-03-12 02:30:20
subject: <b>Right-O!</b>
body:
Why not?  Demandred has provided us loyal readers with every indication that he's a) not behaving in the same manner as the other Forsaken, and b) not behaving in the same manner as he did back in the Age of Legends. <br /><br />No one's seen him in 3,000 years.  I mean, if Demandred has to run out to the dry goods shop for a loaf of bread, it's not as if anyone is going to recognize him.<br /><br />Why dabble in all these under-handed exchanges and dirty little wars when you can just sit back, manipulate some greedy Seanchan DFs and let all your competition break themselves on the rock of Rand al'Thor?<br /><br />Mark me words, lassies and laddies, I do be tellin' the truth when I say it will come down to Rand, Demandred, Moridin and *insert one random female Forsaken here*.<br /><br />-Braidtugger<br /><br />


created: 2002-06-27 17:52:13
subject: <b>A loony theory</b>
body:
I have to agree that Demandred is not Taim and that he is using proxies (as per Sammael's quote).  And I agree that he probably doesn't have direct control over Taim (since he doesn't recognize an Asha'man on sight and only knows of them by reports).  However, ALL the Forsaken immediately set out to learn about the new Age and about customs, etc.  Some like Be'lal, Rahvin, and Sammael made themselves to be border lords and integrated themselves with the rulers of their chosen locations.  Others, like Mesaana and Semirhage, set themselves up with other power structures to help manipulate events.  However, all have one thing in common-they were somewhere where they could receive news and reports from others (see Rahvin's POV in FoH and Graendal's POVs to see what I mean).  A major theme of the story is that the forces of good hold all the pieces to win but can't find the time to put them together.  Information is the key to victory at the moment.<br />SO my nominee for Demandred primary proxy is...Balwer, the secretary.  He has total access to all sorts of information and would make the perfect little helper.  Through him, Demandred learned that Fain was in the Two Rivers, kept Niall from learning about the Seanchan and told the Seanchan when to invade Amador (after the Whitecloaks left, so as to create more chaos.  If the Whitecloaks were wiped out at home, then there is less potential for chaos).  Through Balwer, Demandred could have given Niall the idea to create the 'Dragonsworn' in Altara that are sullying Rand and Masema's names.  <br />Where Balwer stands now is another question.  Without Niall, Demandred may have no more use for Balwer and just is ignoring him for now.  OR Balwer could have rescued Morgase on orders in order to help Demandred get a line on the Queen of Andor (and now the Lord of Two Rivers and leige lord of Manetheren reborn, namely Perrin).


created: 2002-08-10 00:05:04
subject: <b>ctown woody</b>
body:
i dont think your theory is loony at all.  as i was reading these comments, i was actually thinking balwer would be a good pick.  when sammael made his comments about lackeys to the south (of arad doman) carving out lands, i thought that had to be the dragonsworn-witecloaks, and balwer would be in an excellent position to control them.  pedron niall would definitely not want to be caught giving orders to dragonsworn, who better to do it than his secretary/secret head of intelligence?  perhaps demandred is posing as balwer, once he saw that there was no more power to be had in amadicia, he latched on to morgase, who, as far as he knows, is still the queen of andor.  lucky him that he was then led directly to ta'varen, possibly future ruler of ghealdan, parts of murandy and andor, and close, personal friend to the dragon reborn.  <br />also, semirhage, mesaana, and demandred have always worked together (well, not against each other anyway).  perhaps they are going after the people in the wings, such as mat (semirhage through tuon), perrin (demandred as balwer), or who knows who in the white tower (mesaana).<br />also, as a side note, i dont see any way that masema could be under the influence of forsaken.  he showed this zealous streak as soon as rand was proclaimed.  whichever forsaken it could be would have to have found an identity, and somehow picked masema out as a center of power back at the beginning of tGH.  masema's rise to power happened very shortly after the forsaken were unleashed, and once he really began to believe the stuff he was saying, i think he would have been too crazy and unpredictable for any of the forsaken to try to use as their first centers of power.  now, perhaps one of the forsaken did try to use him (perhaps posing as one of the rulers of ghealdan that disappeared - i know its a stretch) once he began preaching about rand, but they found out quickly that he was nuts, so they abandoned him for somewhere a little more hospitable....amador?<br />if you guys dont agree, sorry.  i have no quotes for proof, im just going by what seems likely to me.


created: 2004-07-01 17:22:14
subject: <b>demandred=demandred</b>
body:
I like this theory, I have read most of the other theories concerning Dem's identity, (Mil Tesleen, Taim, Borderland Officer, Caemlyn Officer etc...).<br />Now, to me, there is no reason why Demandred can't be all these people, as the identities people are sugesting are characters that only crop up once, twice or not at all, so there's no reason that anyone would be remotely suspicious.<br />The only possible flaw (I don't think it, just stating it) is that of Demandred's considerable ego- he has a very high opinion of himself and  may not be able to tolerate being a lowly officer/whatever, although now I'm writing that, may be the reason why none of these characters people have suggested he might be, have been in the story very long- as he abandons the proxie as he becomes quickly tired of acting subservient.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> Vaguely Remembered <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-07-01 17:26:51
subject: <b>demmy=balwer</b>
body:
Just read this theory and got thinking (I'm not sure about this so shoot me down if I'm wrong...)<br /><br />When Graendal says to Dem that he is just trying to bump into Rand, that suggests that he is in fairly close proximity to Rand, and I'm not sure, but I don't think that Balwer has ever been  close to Rand (although Balwer could be one of many identities he uses, it would mean that Balwer would constantly appear/disappear for periods, and he seems to be a fairly constant figure wherever he is...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> Vaguely Remembered <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2008-09-29 16:03:30
subject: <b>Finally ....</b>
body:
Someone has the balls to come out and say it.  I posted this idea on the board a few years back and got well and truly flamed for it <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />I would give you two thumbs up if I could vote more than once!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Freudian Slip:  when you say one thing and mean your mother.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" />is my hero!<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/w00t.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-08 15:20:50
subject: <b>Of course!</b>
body:
How could I have been so blind?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i><font face="times new roman"><br />But the dogs you say they fed you to<br />Lay their muzzles in your lap<br />And the lions that they led you to<br />Lie down and take a nap</font><br /></i><font face="wingdings"><font color="blue">h</font></font></font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-08 15:44:24
subject: <b>So then Faile...</b>
body:
...was originally Tom Bombadil and ended up as Jar Jar Binks?<br /><br />Things are finally starting to make some sense.<br /><br />Kill them!<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Annoying wotmaniacs for 10 years.<br /><br />Oh, I don't have time for this. I have to go and buy a single piece of fruit with a coupon and then return it, making people wait behind me while I complain. - Prof. Farnsworth<br /> <br /><b>The Voice of Lews Therin</b><br /><br /></font><p><a href="http://www.waronterrortheboardgame.com/" target="_blank">Find out what WOT really means...</a></p><p></p>


created: 2002-01-08 21:42:50
subject: <b>bloody brilliant</b>
body:
but... Ringwraiths had eyes, they just couldn't really see with them, just sense 'shadows in their minds that only the noonday sun dispells' or some such.  <br /><br />another hole in your theory:  wouldn't Sauron be Emperor Palpatine?  Well... maybe he'd be Vader, since they're both Dark Lords.  And besides, LotR took place in the Third Age, not the first.  <br /><br />Don't forget, both Randland and Tolkien's Middle-Earth are actually our planet's past (well past and future for Randland).  Tolkien's as an attempt (succesfull) to create a set of myths and legends for England and Jordan's to explain where some of our myths developed from.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bobbafett.gif" border="0" /> The_Last_Gunslinger<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> All that is Gold does not Glitter<br />    Not all those who Wander are Lost<br />    The Old that is Strong does not Wither<br />    Deep Roots are not reached by the frost<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gandalf.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-09 09:35:02
subject: <b>hehehe</b>
body:
People who vote against theories like this are way too serious and need to be removed from the human population for their own good.<br /><br />Please put them out of my misery!<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Telvin</font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-09 11:41:25
subject: <b>Faile, Jar Jar, fine...</b>
body:
BUT DON'T MESS WITH TOM BOMBADIL!!!!!!!!!!!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i><font face="times new roman"><br />But the dogs you say they fed you to<br />Lay their muzzles in your lap<br />And the lions that they led you to<br />Lie down and take a nap</font><br /></i><font face="wingdings"><font color="blue">h</font></font></font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-09 18:03:23
subject: <b>Thanks you guys!</b>
body:
I'm glad you like my theory.  My logic behind Sauruman ----&gt; Ishmael -----&gt; Emperor Palpatane, was that the Emperor is a man, not a supernatural being.  Although, technically, Sauruman was a demi-god, but a man nevertheless.  I did come up with the Dark ONe, Sauron, and the Dark Side.  But I don't like that.  I don't really feel that the Force has a consciousness.  <br /><br />I use Penguin_Pete as another name.


created: 2002-01-09 23:28:22
subject: <b>Yes yes, it all fits</b>
body:
We have magic, one power, the force.  Some of them don't have counter parts in all 3 eras of course. Whitecloaks preceded the Stortroopers, but had no middle earth referrence. Wolf brothers becam wookies, while Ents becam Nym, and Nym didn't last long enough to evolve to Starwars era.<br /><br />   And now I realize that Luke Sky Walker is yet another Dragon Reborn as was Rand and Frodo before him. The only hitch is Lukes father being immaculately concieved. Wait we don't have to count the Prequel trilogy into this system right? We can just say that those films take place in a mirror realm reality that is slighty different (and less entertaining) than the true Star Wars Realm (a.k.a. the evolved Randland/Middle Earth [there I used the term once, may I never do so again] that we've seen already).<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-10 14:29:14
subject: <b>another &quot;age&quot;</b>
body:
read the dark tower series by stephen king? you've got the broken down technologies, the regression in human understanding of the technologies, magic (haven't read too much so i don't figure how magic works here), and the &quot;ageless man&quot; probably would fit in about the 5th or so age in that timeline....<br />


created: 2002-01-12 06:27:09
subject: <b>Don't you dare</b>
body:
lay hands on Tom bombadil you ignorant lout!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> <font color="a52a2a">Magnus Alexander corpore parvus erat </font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <font color="b8860b">Dissenting voice of wotmania</font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <br /><font color="6495ed">Frightfully stubborn pacifist</font> <br /><br /><i><font color="669900"> Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent</font></i></font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-13 14:45:51
subject: <b>LOL <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /></b>
body:
<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">~I know everything, it is just that sometimes I can't completely remember some things.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-18 16:05:35
subject: <b>...but Tom Bombadil sucks...</b>
body:
...and Tolkien himself realized it.  He mentioned that Bombadil was one of the things he wouldn't mind having come out of the books should they be adapted to a movie version.  He realized the sheer idiocy that Bombadil would bring to his otherwise epic fantasy.  Bombadil is the Ewok Factor x10.  Anyone whose lines include &quot;Hi-merry-do-derry-a dillo&quot; or whatever it was he sang belongs more on the Teletubbies than in the same movie as the Balrog (unless it is for the sheer joy the audience will experience to watch the prancing fop get rent to shreds by the Balrog's massive fangs).  Fellowship of the Ring is so flawless because, unlike Lucas and his Jar-Jar Binks, Peter Jackson excised the ridiculous cancer of Bombadil from his adaptation of Tolkien.<br /><br />Death to Bombadil! Put his head on a pike and let the vultures pick at it!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Annoying wotmaniacs for 10 years.<br /><br />Oh, I don't have time for this. I have to go and buy a single piece of fruit with a coupon and then return it, making people wait behind me while I complain. - Prof. Farnsworth<br /> <br /><b>The Voice of Lews Therin</b><br /><br /></font><p><a href="http://www.waronterrortheboardgame.com/" target="_blank">Find out what WOT really means...</a></p><p></p>


created: 2002-01-19 13:34:18
subject: <b>Aragorn=Rand=Luke??</b>
body:
Is this at all possible??? and is hobbiton=tattoine=2rivers??? all 3 went to teralanrhiod, got reincarnated and came back with flaming swords!!!!Lukes' lightsaber, rand's powersword, and aragorn's narsil(which got upgraded). Maybe telaranrhiod upgrades u n ur weapons when u go there. i should send my comp there.<br />


created: 2002-01-28 12:10:31
subject: <b>No no no...</b>
body:
it would be Gandalf=Mixture of Thom and Moiraine=Obi Wan<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />the lover of light and wisdom<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" />the all-seeing eye<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />the wandering wotmaniac<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-22 05:04:45
subject: <b>Nah</b>
body:
Gandalf would be Yoda<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/birgitte.gif" border="0" /> Alexia is my <font color="red">Cute Australian&#8482;</font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/birgitte.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/min.gif" border="0" /> Proudly Bonded to Rana Sedai <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/min.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><font color="red"><i>It was all my fault...</i></font><br /><br /><font color="white">squaaaaark</font><font color="#3366FF"><br /><i>I'm a sexy chicken for Zeeb</i></font><br /><br /><font color="blue"><b><i>Vegas Aug 17-18 - A Night to Remember</i></b></font></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-23 23:16:59
subject: <b>But wait...</b>
body:
Does anyone else remember that somewhere in LotR it says they take place in the third age?  I think most of these character equivilants are correct, but they are simply variations of the third age, also known as the age of books.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Four things cannot be hidden- love, smoke, a pillar of fire, and a man striding across the open bled.&quot;<br />                               -<i>Fremen Saying</i><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-18 13:38:53
subject: <b>LOL</b>
body:
i agree that Aragorn would be the equivilant of the dragon reborn, aragorn-rand-luke. and its &quot;hey dol merry dol ding a dong dillo!&quot; you fool! and bombadil would kill the balrog&gt;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> yes lotr does take place in the third age, the accounts of the first and second age (and even pre-first age) can be found in The Silmarillion and The Unfinished Tales. every age of lotr ended with an epic battle, as well as the destruction of some sort of dark lord, as in WOT. age one-Elves battle Morgoth with the assistance of the Valar and defeat him. age two- the last alliance of men and elves battles sauron on the slopes of mount doom, sauron is defeated by Elendil. age 3- the armies of the west, led by Aragorn fights the armies of auron at the northern gate of mordor, while frodo sam and gollum defeat the dark lord himself for good. i believe that age four of LotR was age one of WoT.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;A Warder once told me Trollocs called the Aiel Waste 'the Dying Ground.' I mean to make them give that name to the Two Rivers.&quot;-Perrin<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><br />&quot;Do not meddle in the affairs of Wizards, for they are subtle and quick to anger.&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gandalf.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-15 04:34:33
subject: <b>someone probably already covered this.....</b>
body:
I just wanted to mention (again, if anybody's already covered this) that it is easily possible to incorporate all of these stories into one, but please keep in mind that they won't all happen in the same turning of the wheel.  It would take hundreds of Ages, not seven, for the Pattern of the Ages to evolve to such a completely different form.<br />similar stories, similar worlds, but much farther apart than some people on here are trying to make them


created: 2002-09-06 19:22:16
subject: <b>Aes Sedai=Jedi</b>
body:
I'm not sure what i mean here. possibly more so male aes sedai(yes, i do know that there are female jedi).<br />Since the end of the breaking male channelers have been hunted and killed. Similarly the Jedi were hunted down and killed during the Jedi massacre when the Empire rose to power and the Republic was destroyed (I actually believe that the Republic was taken over by Palpatine and he called it his Empire and named himself Emperor. He also was Darth Sidious, but this is a WoT site so I'll get on with what I'm sayin).<br />Also The one ring was a ter'angreal of some sort, or maybe even a sa'ter'angreal or something like that. Much stronger than ur average ter'angreal and also increases your own power.<br />May be also Ents=Ogier aswell. Theres probably a hell of a lot more that i'll think of later but i'll leave all that to you lot.<br />By the way is this a stormtrooper or a clone warrior from the republic army? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/clonetrooper.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Lews Therin Telamon<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />The Dragon<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Lord of the Morning<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />The Breaker of the World<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Kinslayer<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-23 08:07:53
subject: <b>!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!</b>
body:
This theory makes a lot of sense.  Think about it...in LotR, the Misty Mountains, in WoT, Mountains of Mist, both have a dark lord, the Green man = Tom Bombadil much older, Ogier = those guys who like trees in LotR.  The Ogier connection sounds logical, because Ogier and those guys in LotR are exactly alike.  Both live a long time, are not hasty, are very tall, and both love trees.  Also, I think the WoT third age is just the Third Age of Middle Earth again, the wheel of time made a complete circle.


created: 2002-11-17 11:00:03
subject: <b>When things happen(ed)</b>
body:
If WoT is our world later, then SW can't be its future.  <br />I can't recall which ages are which, but I do remember getting a test question wrong in 6th grade.<br />We had current affairs test each week, SW had just come out (Yes, I'm that old)  One question was:  When does Star Wars take place?  A: the future  B: the present  C: the past.<br /><br />I got it wrong because I answered C.  Fought the teacher on it, because it was a long time ago . . .<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Plaidwizard<br />Tai'Shar Cheeselandia<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> Good books good, bad fire bad <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />si te certiorem facerem, mihi delendus esses <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-06-21 05:55:32
subject: <b>Well...</b>
body:
Shouldn't it be Sauron ---&gt; the Dark One ---&gt; Exar Kun (the first Lord of the Sith)?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="purple">Logain Reborn</font><br /><font color="lightgreen">Keeper of the happy Cheese <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /></font><br /><font color="lightblue">Lord of the Teatime <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /></font><br /><font color="pink">Ruler of all fluffy tings <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /></font><br /><font color="gray">And thirtyone other titles<br />I don't deserve and have<br />never heard before.</font></font><p></p>


created: 2006-06-19 10:01:52
subject: <b>No...</b>
body:
It SHOULD be Morgoth=Dark One=Exar Kun(First lord of Sith) NOT Sauron. Then it would be Sauron=Ishmael=SW equivalent(Palpatine?) Remember, Sauron was not Valar, he was Maiar like Balrogs or Gandalf/Saruman.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Egwene must die.<br />Rand Al'Thor will face her wrath...<br />And laugh in her face!</font><p></p>


created: 2009-02-18 14:19:56
subject: <b>Great Theory</b>
body:
Ents = Ogier = Wookie<br /><br />Aragorn = Rand = Luke<br /><br />Gollum = Fain = Vader<br /><br />Gandalf = Moiraine = Yoda<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Don't say always, don't say never.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-10 17:19:00
subject: <b>Yaa First post!</b>
body:
*Jeremias dances to the music in his head*<br /><br />Right then, on to the real stuff.<br /><br />Cool thought- I must admit I was a little uncomfortable with the idea of a 'secret switch' for the Forsaken to be able to turn the Gholam on and off (or whatever the thought was).<br /><br />Weaving fire into an area the size of a football pitch (or footie ground as it would be in Australia) should just about do for our shapeshifting friends I would think...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Jeremias <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sleepy.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-10 17:49:57
subject: <b>Hmmmm</b>
body:
I gotta think that someone would have tried fire against a gholam, and it doesn't remember being hurt by it.


created: 2002-01-10 21:23:25
subject: <b>Gholam interrment</b>
body:
So you can't use the Power on 'em, eh?  Well, just use the Power to move a ton of rock and dirt over them, and let the weaves go.  Bury the sucker alive. What would probably be safer would be to stick 'em in a cave and then seal the entrance with the Power, using flows to melt the stone into solid rock and then using the Power to cool it instantly.  <br />Here's a thought -- if there's anything left of Mashadar out there, let's see how well THAT does against the Gholam.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I may be love's bitch, but at least I'm man enough to admit it. -- Spike</font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-11 00:32:01
subject: <b>my thoughts...</b>
body:
I always thought that the way they were going to kill the gholem was to bring it into Far Madding. I think if it gets inside Far Madding it will explode.


created: 2002-01-11 05:28:08
subject: <b>Silver arrow</b>
body:
I think that silver arrow, which came with Birgitte, would hurt and possibly even slay Gholam. There is a possibility that it was made by Finns, bc I don't think that it is possible to make silver weapon without cheating and AS had not made any weapons since they started to swear their Oaths. Finns seem to use silver and that arrow is only thing from TAR that has survived in &quot;real world&quot;. It is also possible that only Finn made objects can be brought from TAR. So another possible reason why it could hurt Gholem is that Gholems could be hurted by Finnish products like Mat's medallion did. Besides there is a possibility that silver hurts Gholems. What I mean is that silver could have similar effect to Gholem like holy water has to vampires.


created: 2002-01-11 08:08:18
subject: <b>I agree with Narishma</b>
body:
except it might be a stedding rather than Far Madding. The gholam seems to have been set up as Mat's main enemy at the moment, so it'll probably be chasing him and Mat will accidentaly run into one.


created: 2002-01-11 10:22:21
subject: <b>J-Bob please clarify</b>
body:
Well if the true power can't harm it directly then any way to kill it by channeling has to be indirect.<br /><br />   The ida of lighting or fire might work. The problem is that we don't know how hot is hot enough to burn it. A gholam may in fact be immune even to the heat of a lightning bolt. I think it'd have be something that a channeler would need to have time to test. Hit it once, and if that don't work then try burying it.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-11 12:25:46
subject: <b>Maybe not fire</b>
body:
Keep in mind that the Gholam ignored weapons.  It's immunity is not just the one power. <br /><br />And maybe why Graendal (still my favorite baddie!!) barely escaped is because the thing is so durned FAST.<br /><br />From all accounts, Matt's speed (hand-eye, dex, etc.) is the fastest we've ever seen.  He has more advantages to him than just being ta'veren, a medallion and memories in his head.  He's quick with his feet, hands and mind -- quite likely more so than Graendal.  <br /><br />Let's face it...powerful though she may be, that little bit of bouncy-bouncy probably doesn't have the reflexes of a hockey goalie.  Matt does.


created: 2002-01-14 15:27:37
subject: <b>Gholam?</b>
body:
Would someone quote the line in the books where Graendal shivers?  If memory serves, it wasn't the gholam that caused her to shiver...  Quick, someone with the books handy...


created: 2002-01-14 18:09:25
subject: <b>and then again...</b>
body:
Found the passage... It was a gholam to whom she was referring.  However, I don't believe it is the DO's will keeping the gholam from going after his minions.  The DO was content to sit back and watch his &quot;Chosen&quot; fight for power and dominion over the others.  The book states specifically that he actually encouraged it.  Now, as far as we know, the Forsaken are the only ones who can control a gholam which would indicate Graendal was attacked by a gholam sent by another of the Forsaken.


created: 2002-01-15 17:24:04
subject: <b>IRONCHEF</b>
body:
Methinks you misunderstood me.<br /><br />I didn't mean for the Gholam to be _directly_ affected by the fire, hence the use of a football-field-sized area. Big enough that the G couldn't just jump out of the way, and hopefully hot enough to melt the sucker (denature the proteins within).<br /><br />Of course, if he is made up entirely of the OP then we're screwed unless Mast's there (which is probably why the plot is being set up that way).<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Jeremias <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sleepy.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-17 16:05:21
subject: <b>It never says..</b>
body:
It doesn't say that Graendal barely escaped from a gholam, just that she had a run in with one of the Aginor's creatures.  And that only a madman would have made the gholam.  I believe the gholam must have something like a remote to control them....something like a mind trap.  But Graendal could have touched a tree and been bitten by a &quot;stick&quot; and saved by healing for all we know.


created: 2002-06-07 17:10:24
subject: <b>gholam semi invincible</b>
body:
if the gholam is made of the OP then mats amulet murts it cause the amulet ABSORBS the OP, just like the gholam. but i think the amulet thing hurts it cause they are similar and so forth. how do you fight fire? with fire (metaphorically) how do you fight channelers? with channelers (not metaphorically) how do you fight gholam? with artificial gholam substitute!! TADAAA so anyway the gholam is invincibal with the achilles heel of the amulet. say good bye Aei Sedai...<br /><br /><br />i am so smart, s-m-r-t, i mean s-m-a-r-t<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /> walk in the umm... One Power? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> no wait... <br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> <br />red shield,<br />police warrior,<br />aielman,<br /><br />Aethan_Dor <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /> <br />


created: 2002-07-15 16:07:23
subject: <b>mpl_35 is right</b>
body:
There is no direct linkage between Graendal and the gholam.  I think a jumarra or something like a 'stick' is a more likely candidate.  Something small that would escape her notice.  She is good with subtleties among people but misses details around her.<br />I do like the idea of them being immune to the TP and that being the reason that so few were made.  However, they must have a discernable weakness, else all one had to do was send all 6 after Lews Therin and the war is largely over.<br />ALso, if sticking it with a knife didn't faze it, I don't think lightning will either.  Just a hunch, but their weakness is probably a bit harder to pull off, otherwise SOMEONE would have gotten lucky by now.<br />What I want to know is:  Why blood?  and what happens when a gholam doesn't get enough blood?


created: 2002-11-03 20:59:49
subject: <b>Gholam's can be defeated by power-wrought weapons</b>
body:
That, or a huge amount of force/damage, like a huge rock falling on it, or being thrown into molten metal/lava etc. (a la terminator 2!), very likely. <br /><br />But on to the power-wrought weapons...why did the gholam disarm Mat from his power-wrought weapon, but didn't disarm his daggers, or Nalesan's sword? It knew that the power wrought weapon might hurt it like a normal weapon should (though the damage would probably be temporary, but not totally nil like what happened when Mat stabbed it), but never expected a little amulet to permenantly burn its face to the touch.<br /><br />Besides, the WoT campaign setting rulebook lists that you have to do heavy damage with one hit just to hurt it a little, but power wrought weapons bypass its damage ignoring properties, as do ter'angreal like Mat's <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lan.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-11-19 06:15:24
subject: <b>It wasnt a Gholam it was a Jumarra</b>
body:
Graendal was attacked by a Jumarra not a Gholam. <br />Because Sammael was taling about how there were larval Jumarra in the Blight....Worms....That is when she shivered. <br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">that that is is that that is not is not is that it is it<br /><br />...When the Screams can't carry far enough <br />When the sands of time burn razor marks <br />When the ice burns cold and I can feel no more <br />...I'll know it's happened again...</font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-10 17:07:59
subject: <b>False Evidence</b>
body:
The main reasoning behind the theory is that Rand didn't feel the effects of the taint in the begging when he called... ahem, seized Saidin by instinct. Not true. If you re-read Eye Of The World and pay close attention to, say, the chapter with them heading for the tarren with the Dragkar chasing them. When Rand is 'willing' Bela to run faster to keep up, Rand felt like his bones were freezing or something like that amoung other symptoms we learn about later on. Want more evidence? How about when Rand and Mat are in Four Kings with Howal Gode - just before the lightning struck that miraculously saved them Rand felt about the same as the other times he unknowingly channeled. Then, as Moiraine explained to Nynaeve at about the same time, Rand was feeling the sickness assosciated with the first touching of the source.<br /><br />So next time, before you post an annoying theory like this - get some real evidence and READ over what you're theory is about. What did you do, skip reading Eye Of The World?


created: 2002-01-10 17:23:08
subject: <b>100%</b>
body:
If we work really hard on this one, we can keep the 100% negative rating.<br />That's a challenge we can all be inspired by..<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Jeremias <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sleepy.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-10 18:32:29
subject: <b>Have you read WH?</b>
body:
Concidering that WH has been out for over a year now, I would assume that this topic should be dead.  Seriously discussing this is like seriously discussing what would be happening in WoT right now if Rand had never left the Two Rivers; Not only pointless but without any basis to speculate on.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Telvin</font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-10 19:22:13
subject: <b>Actually Telvin</b>
body:
Actually Telvin,<br />There is a basis to speculate on what would happen if Rand never left the Two Rivers. Read the journey to Toman Head by Portal Stone again. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-01-11 19:40:04
subject: <b>I Know</b>
body:
I remembered that right after I hit the POST button.  It may not have been the best choice of example, but the point is still valid.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Telvin</font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-14 19:56:06
subject: <b>Sigh...</b>
body:
You know, every time we're about to get a 100% disagreement (or even agreement) on a theory there has to be a couple of rebels go out and vote for the other side just...because.<br /><br />You guys (and girls) are worse than a bunch of economists. You know, I bet the mods put this one up just to see if anyone would try to defend it or at least vote for it...<br /><br />Ciel, the Baerlon Maid<br />doesn't need any titles or smileys<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Ciel, the Baerlon Maid<br />doesn't need any titles or smileys</font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-17 08:02:14
subject: <b>WOW</b>
body:
I am very impressed. This is the single worst theory I have ever read on this board. Bravo. Have you even read the books or are you just piecing it together by reading theories?


created: 2002-01-17 16:51:42
subject: <b>Really? The worst?</b>
body:
I don't know, I've read some pretty bad theories...although this one is pretty bad.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>Stories grow from everywhere, they&#8217;re like some hideous alien moss that can just sprout up.</i><br />--Joss Whedon<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-25 17:33:24
subject: <b>we're back at 100%</b>
body:
good job everybody...we did it 100% negative rating<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" />I got my Broken Crown at Wal Mart<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/crazy.gif" border="0" />Women are crazy, maybe Rand understands them<br />&quot;It's going to be a trilogy.&quot; -Robert Jordan(circa 1989)<br /><br />&quot;Only RJ knows&quot;<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" />PerrinAybaraPSK.onIm<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-06 22:57:20
subject: <b>i don't think so</b>
body:
about the 100%, i mean, it was 99% last time i checked, but it's not my fault. this is a crazy theory, because if you could touch saidin without the taint, then rand probably would have figured out how to do that already! he's not completely mule-headed, you know.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Egwene the Dreamer <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/egwene.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />the shy aes sedai <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shy.gif" border="0" /><br />with her head in a book <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-12-02 12:52:09
subject: <b>better late than never...</b>
body:
I know that I am responding a long time after the thory was originally posted but...<br /><br />This is a prime example of how not to do a theory.  In order to come up with a quality theory, you must have some quotes to back it up and have done at least a modicum of research.   Perhaps if the author of this theory had been looking for quotations (and failed to find any) he/she would have realised that there is no basis for this argument, because there is not.  I mean really!!!  I can come up with a theory that says &quot;Hey guys!!!!  I was re-reading the books and I came across a passage where Egwene tapped her lips and we know that Mesanna tapped her lips so I thinks that Mesanna is Egwene!!!  It all fits.  I mean she is from the white tower.&quot;<br /><br />Sorry that this is not very nice to &quot;Stranger&quot; but this theory sucks<br /><br />BTW: Who are the 20 ppl that agreed?  What drugs were they on?<br /><br />Sketch <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angry.gif" border="0" />


created: 2004-09-25 13:02:17
subject: <b>No, dipwad.</b>
body:
Please don't write while you're that excited. You'll only embarass yourself.<br /><br />(And did the admins let this one through so we could tear him apart, or were they just asleep while they checked them?)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Tsorovan'n'dore<br />-StormDancer<br /><br />&quot;We rode on the winds of the rising storm,<br /> we ran to the sounds of the thunder.<br /> We danced among the lightning bolts,<br /> and tore the world asunder.&quot;<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2006-07-08 06:00:09
subject: <b>Hey...</b>
body:
This is easily the worst theory to ever exist. Maybe your thinking of his first &quot;concious&quot; channeling in which untainted saidin is used from the Eye. Ehhhh... its still not as bad as say, thinking Egwene is actually a useful character.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Egwene must die.<br />Rand Al'Thor will face her wrath...<br />And laugh in her face!</font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-10 20:31:33
subject: <b>One way or another, he IS mad.</b>
body:
There's no doubt that LTT is mad. Half a page of listening to him talk in Rand's head will tell you that. I don't think that it's just grief over Ilyena, either, because at the end of the prologue he was sane enough for a few moments, *with* the knowledge of Ilyena's death. Suicidal, true, but coherently so. I think probably Ishamael's rough Healing only gave LTT a moment of sanity, enough to realize what he had done, but didn't clear the madness altogether. I don't think Healing CAN completely cure madness, anyway. Somewhere I'm fairly sure that it's been said it's not possible. Besides that, even if LTT was cured of his original madness, there's nothing to say the taint hasn't caught up with him again - through Rand - and brought him back to madness from whatever sanity he was beginning to regain.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Doesine<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" />Aes Sedai of the Yellow Ajah <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />intermittent lurker<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-10 21:55:19
subject: <b>I believe</b>
body:
that Ishmael said that he could only give LTT a few moments of sanity.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Emperor of Draco <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /> Lord Tiger VII <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> Reigning Animal Lord <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /> Hater of Imbeciles <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> Wise Guy <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />        lord_tiger_vii_@hotmail.com</font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-11 11:49:13
subject: <b>Sigh....</b>
body:
LTT is dead!  We know that death removes insanity (unless birth does) because Rand started off sane.  If Rand/LTT is a hero of the horn then LTT is definitely not mad since the Artur Paendrag treats Rand (whom he recognizes as LTT) as if he were sane.  In other words, while in T'A'R LTT was sane.  (The way that Artur and company treats Rand indicates, IMHO, that the dragon is a prominent member of the heroes of the horn.)  <br /><br />If LTT was sane while waiting in T'A'R then why is he insane now?  Why does LTT exist at all?  Rand and LTT are the same soul.  A useful analogy is to imagine that a middle aged man suddenly got the memories, mannerisms, and voice in his head of himself when he was a teenager.  Even if it were possible for the spirits of others (and of the dead) to enter someones head, we would still say that man was crazy.  (You can't possess yourself!)<br /><br />LTT isn't crazy.  Rand is.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">RabidWombat<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> Let the Lord of Rambling Thoughts rule <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> Proud owner of a 2 star rating! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /> Someone stole all my cookies <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-11 14:22:37
subject: <b>I dunno what LTT is now, but the taint wasn't lifted from him.....</b>
body:
...before he died on at Kinslayers Dagger. Ish heals him with 'Shaitains Healing' (bringing the dark cloud over him and not feeling like anyting LTT had felt thru Healing before) and he's sane enough to know whats going and where he is in the palace.<br /><br />But then it says &quot;Desperately he reached out to the True Source, to tainted saidin, and he Traveled.&quot;, when leaving the palace.<br /><br />So either he<br /><br />Was Healed enough to fight off saidin temp, or he<br /><br />Was Healed and then made himself insane again, or in the beginnings of, when he used the power to travel.<br /><br /><br />Doesn't one of the chosen say something about being under the DO's protection later, in regards to using saidin?


created: 2002-01-12 06:11:53
subject: <b>I completely agree with you</b>
body:
I actually posted the same theory a while back... nocely put up, I thought...<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> <font color="a52a2a">Magnus Alexander corpore parvus erat </font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <font color="b8860b">Dissenting voice of wotmania</font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <br /><font color="6495ed">Frightfully stubborn pacifist</font> <br /><br /><i><font color="669900"> Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent</font></i></font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-12 11:19:43
subject: <b>Doesine makes me think...</b>
body:
...and I&#180;d like to see your opinion: Will Nynaeve discover a way to Heal madness? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gimli.gif" border="0" /> Llaydwhonn Gaidin <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gimli.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> The disguised Asha&#180;man <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> Still unbonded <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/r2d2.gif" border="0" /> Dedicated to the Black Ajah <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/r2d2.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-12 22:10:45
subject: <b>Possibly,</b>
body:
We have to remeber that Lews Therin is bound to Wheel and remains in the world of dreams between lives and as such has a complete knowledge of what he was and did in the previous life.  I don't think he would be mad from the taint because then he probably would have used the power in the world of Dreams, however living with killing your entire family for three thousand years just might push you over the brink.


created: 2002-01-13 14:51:26
subject:
<b>lots of text, kinda <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /></b>

body:
What bugs me isn't the question about LTT being mad (in my opinion what Ishamael did was, of course, only temporal; meaning it was only the &quot;clearing&quot; of LTT's mind. Nothing was done to the taint), but the fact Rand thinks he (=LTT)is, and doesn't suggest anything else when thinking by himself. It's always: &quot;ah, the Mad LTT again.&quot; To me it seems RJ wants the readers to think LTT is mad, or then he's just highlighting Rand's lack of views.<br />   However, everyone else in the WoT series also seems to share Rands way of thinking &quot;without the possibility of other options&quot;. Such as: the red ajah captured Rand, and wanted to keep him secured so he could be ready for Tarmon Gaidon. Now really, how did they think he was gonna fight the DO? If they were able to capture him rather easily themselves (15 against 1 yeah, but still &quot;rather&quot; easily)? It &quot;seems&quot; they're just blindly trusting the prophecies of the Dragon. No one's even questioning his chances and that means they must think he's got something no one else does. But why doesn't anyone ever talk about THAT thing! (I hope this isn't too confusing)<br />Back to LTT: Rand thinks the LTT in his mind is mad. Rand's opinion about this fact seems to be TOO clear; and from that I get the itch that RJ wants him to think so. And Rand is not the kinda person to make philosophy so... <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Jazz Necesse Est <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-20 03:17:57
subject: <b>Uhhh</b>
body:
I thought that Ishamael said he could only lift the madness for a little while,long enough to make Lews Therin see what he had done, in the hope that he would give up. One way or the other, the poor boy is mad now...though I bet that that changes soon!<br />Hril<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Token Female of the Order of the Bucket O'Fish<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> Sister to Coyotes<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> Reader of Forgotten Books<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> Burgeoning Pyromaniac<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" /> I LIKE FAILE!<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-30 20:35:20
subject: <b>My two cents</b>
body:
Knowing you brutally murdered everybody you loved and who loved you would be enoughto drive ANYBODY insane, and having to *live* so to speak with that fact for 3,000 years would CERTAINLY do it! If it didn't you'd have to be more wvil then the most evil person/enitiy to ever exisist. One way or another LTT is most definately insane.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I am cool, are you? <br /><br />The kicker of the seals <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <br />The flame that burned down Tar Valon <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />My arse is the Amyrlin Seat</font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-25 20:53:50
subject: <b>The taint could still affect Lews Therin</b>
body:
Remember, Rand is still channeling saidin and Lews Therin has before as well (i.e. small contacts like breaking the shield, if that used saidin...I am not too sure if he has ever actually grasped saidin before).  Lews Therin is still in contact with the taint.  I wonder if Rand channeling subjects LTT to the taint?  In my opinion it does, and that is helping to produce his madness - also produced from him killing his kin.  Complete conjecture, but never know.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Guy who likes to play basketball and wants sports in Randland other than sha'je <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br />Master player of stones <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gimli.gif" border="0" /><br />Generally a good guy <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-28 10:56:23
subject: <b>Lews Therin is most certainly mad</b>
body:
First off I do not think ishamael has the power to lift the taint from someone forever, he may have for a few moments,  but definatley not forever. Secondly, Lews Therin Telamon is always saying weird things like &quot;i killed the whole world, and if you try real hard you can to.&quot; that hardly sounds like something a sane man would say.


created: 2002-08-16 04:45:44
subject: <b>I agree</b>
body:
Whatever you think of LTT's sanity, its not the SAME madness as at the start of tEoTW.  Ishy's healing must still have some effect or he'd be laughing happily and expecting Ilyena to appear and greet his guests (etc) any moment.  In Rand's head, he is weeping and wailing over what he's done. Given that removal of madness was specifically what made him realise that he'd killed her, it seems logical that he is still 'sane' in Rand's head.<br />I would conlude that he is sane, but with the weight of what he has done on his mind.  Also, v good point in earlier comment, that its only ever Rand's opinion that LTT sounds insane.  RJ has said, one of the themes of the books is that each person knows only a small portion of the whole story, and that their PoV's are affected by this.  Obviously Rand assumes LTT is insane, because he knows a bit of history!  Perhaps if he didn't he wouldn't dismiss him as mad so easily<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">It's like that old saying: A conservative is a liberal who's been attacked by aliens</font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-22 17:04:47
subject: <b>hmmm</b>
body:
I wonder how much power, tainted, nasty saidin, it took to make the Dragonmount? Even if he was sane, he drew enough power at his death to create a small mountain range.<br /> But he was not sane. Here is the quote that many have eluded to. <br /> <br /><br /> Tossing back his black cloak, Elan Morin flexed his hands. &quot;A pity for you,&quot;he mused, &quot;that one of your Sisters is not here. I was never very skilled at Healing, and I follow a different path now. But even one of them could only give you a few lucid minutes, if you did not destroy her first. What I can do will serve as well, for my purposes.&quot;...<br />        EotW prologue, pg xi(paperback)<br /><br /><br />


created: 2002-11-25 07:19:31
subject: <b>Maybe both</b>
body:
ok yets think of it this way. Ltt maddnes has change from what he was like just before he killed himself. what if ishy didn't make him totally sane (if it is even possible). what if he just changed the type of maddess, leaving ltts as semi insane


created: 2003-03-14 18:11:40
subject: <b>Does it matter?</b>
body:
Does it matter if Lews Therin was mad when he died or not? Once he's in TAR waiting to be spun back into the wheel, like Birgitte was, it seems he would go back to his <br />original form(mind and body), not the one that he died in in his most recent life.


created: 2003-06-19 09:39:23
subject: <b>Sane</b>
body:
I think he if he went back to TAR he would be sane again, i dont think your soul can become insane, i think its a state  of the mind, as it can be healed at least temporarily. Also we dont know that anything LTT has said is neccessarily crazy... what if the people that LTT always wants to kill actually turn out to betray rand....This would make sense especially you are of the camp that Taim is one of the forsaken. To quote shakespeare: &quot;There is a method to his madness.&quot; LTT might have access and insight to the people he wants to kill that RAnd and others do not... He's just so guilty over Ileyna and the rest of his family that he hasn't bothered to share all the information yet.... I might be wrong about this as well, but didn't LTT want to kill some of ashman that betrayed him? He must know something.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bela.gif" border="0" /> is the creator. <br /><br />&quot;I have always been myself, even when I was ill. Now, however, I seem myself. I have remembered how to seem.&quot;<br />-King George III, The Madness of King George</font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-29 23:08:44
subject: <b>yes, windtalker...</b>
body:
If your soul goes back to TAR, you would loose the madness and the guilt of what happened in your past life. Look at Birgite.  She never batted an eye about things done in her past lives.  They just were; things done in one of her lives.  Ergo, if LTT went back to TAR he would not be insanely guilty over the death of his loved ones - it would just be something that happened in one of his lives where the DO got the upper hand.  He would not be begging for death, because death would have already freed him of his guilt.  <br />He's had 3000 years of guilt to think about what went wrong and what has to be done to fix it... and I agree, he does know something and if Rand would get over the thought that LTT is insane and accept that LTT's just guilty, working together they could really do amazing things.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /> Survivor of Historical Inquizition ... barely <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Who can say if I've been changed for the better, but because I knew you I have been changed for good -- Wicked<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-10-31 02:26:24
subject: <b>Lews Thein is Mad</b>
body:
I'll keep this short. Ishy cured LTT insanity. Then the first thing LTT was travel to the site of present day Dragonmount and channel more of Saidin than any man could channel unaided, which drove him mad again.


created: 2004-03-08 21:51:28
subject: <b>Yep... yep... yep...</b>
body:
<font size="-1"><b>If LTT was sane while waiting in T'A'R then why is he insane now? Why does LTT exist at all? Rand and LTT are the same soul. A useful analogy is to imagine that a middle aged man suddenly got the memories, mannerisms, and voice in his head of himself when he was a teenager. Even if it were possible for the spirits of others (and of the dead) to enter someones head, we would still say that man was crazy. (You can't possess yourself!)</b></font><br /><br />Yes... Why does he exist? Should he be there? Does balefire destroy the soul (obviously not...)? Why do a lot of things happen? Well, because it's a book... Or in this case 12-15 books... wheeloftimefan<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Just another post by<br />SN J-Whitt USN<br /><br />http://www.nationstates.net/whitt-ville</font><p></p>


created: 2004-07-06 17:03:31
subject: <b>yeah, but...</b>
body:
surely finding out you'd killed everyone dear to you would be enough to send you mad all over again, even without the taint... right?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Dovie'andi se tovya sagain</font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-10 16:52:49
subject: <b>I had a theory a while ago</b>
body:
about the destruction of the <i>Wheel</i> of time and the subsequent creation of a linear pattern.  And then I realized RJ starts off every book with <b><i>&quot;...It was neither the beginning nor the end of The Wheel of Time.  But it was a beginning.&quot;</i></b> <br />Ah well...I'm slow. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">-mauladala <br /><br />&quot;I'd just as assume kiss a Wookie!&quot;<br />&quot;I can arrange that!  You could USE a good kiss.&quot;<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-10 17:24:07
subject: <b>Amen mauladala!</b>
body:
This is not the last Age! There will be a fourth, and it will continue! People just thought of that to reassure themselves that there will something more to this Age than the others, and that was the reason that RJ was writing about it. No. If RJ's series is about neverending balance through turnings of the Wheel, then why would he betray it at the end?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-10 17:29:34
subject: <b>Green, Muala and me (sounds like a cocktail)</b>
body:
Absolurte agreeance with the first two posters on this one. I still haven't done the research to find it, but there's stuff from the FIFTH age floating around in 'our' series. Where does this concept of the wheel ending (and the OP ending for that matter) come from?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Jeremias <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sleepy.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-10 21:56:35
subject: <b>The One Power is</b>
body:
Limitless<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Emperor of Draco <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /> Lord Tiger VII <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> Reigning Animal Lord <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /> Hater of Imbeciles <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> Wise Guy <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />        lord_tiger_vii_@hotmail.com</font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-10 22:20:46
subject: <b>Oh yeah</b>
body:
Hey Emporer of Draco if the OP is limitless then how Rand have cleaseed Saidin hmmmm. btw hey raaj this is a noodle baker <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /> I am SSJ Jozan <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-green.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-blue.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> swords are awesome <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-red.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-purple.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br /><br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> Reader of good books <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> Lini is the Creator <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> Lover of Cookies and cartoons <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angry.gif" border="0" /> Hater of Masema <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angry.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-11 00:27:43
subject: <b>HELLOOO!</b>
body:
The One Power has always been described as the power stemming forth from the creator that drives the wheel of time, much like a water wheel.  Certainly, Rand could have run all of saidin through the Choedan Kal if they are that powerful, or have skimmed the top part off that contained the taint, yet way back in TEotW, Moraine described the One Power as not being used up by channeling, merely directed for a moment, before it would (I assume,) rejoin the rest of the flow.  One could not &quot;gather it up.&quot;


created: 2002-01-11 03:21:26
subject: <b>My thoughts...</b>
body:
The time sequence in WoT is definitely circular. There is no reason for it to be named 'Wheel of Time' otherwise. Also, a bunch of the accounts of the Dragon are signed by someone in the Fourth Age...I don't think ever by the same person, but...*shrug*. <br />&lt;BR&gt;Anywho,  this one, at least, I have something to say about. I'd like to say that I like your theory, raaj. <br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">By now the whole of her life has been traded like a pawn<br />That's why she knows the price...of living with the safety on</font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-11 08:14:56
subject: <b>The One Power</b>
body:
is not limitless, if it was there would be no way for Rand to have entirely cleansed the taint from saidan as each time he got some, the rest would just spread out more thinly over the power.<br /><br />However, it is highly likely that if every single channeler in the world held their respective power at the same time to their maximum capacity, with the strongest channelers having the strongest sa'angreal etc, they would still not run out of the power, so they could never know that it wasn't limitless.


created: 2002-01-11 08:18:20
subject: <b>Adding a point</b>
body:
I should make it clear that I don't mean it's not limitless as in it can be used up, I mean it's not limitless as in there's a certain amount of it. That certain amount can of course be used again and again.


created: 2002-01-11 10:43:32
subject: <b>On limitlessness</b>
body:
Well if you think about Saidin as an infinitly deep, raging, body of water, with boundaries at the top (in other words a bottomless pit) then that can explain how Rand totally cleansed it. so you have limits on two dimensions, but not the third. All refferences made to the taint indicate that it's for lack of a better term spread over the top of Saidin, rather than mixed into it. So even as it spreads thin, it still has only so far to go before it's all taken away.<br /><br />   Simply put, the one power is limitless, but the taint was not.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-11 11:45:59
subject: <b>If it is everywhere...</b>
body:
...couldn't Rand have just decided to put all of it &quot;there&quot; for the time being?  I seem to vaguely recall he did something of that nature when he used the saidar conduit to muscle saidin into the area of Aridhol.  Once it started moving, he just filtered it through.<br /><br />Ok, this next bit is going to be a bit out there, but it's the explanation from how I see it:<br />The Dark One's Taint and the evil of Shadar Logoth are essentially &quot;charged&quot; with opposite polarities - we see that whenever they come together (the wounds, the taint, Ordeith, Shadowspawn, etc...) they tend to combat each other, and sometimes neutralize out.  If you look at that as an electrostatic property, it would make sense that the Taint would not &quot;roll away&quot; from Shadar Logoth - it would rush in to combat it.  Rand's conduit allowed them the path to get to each other, and the push from saidin provided enough current to overcome the potential difference.<br /><br />~Godefroy,<br /> Who is now terrified that he sees the world<br /> As a giant Semiconductor of Evil


created: 2002-01-11 14:32:20
subject: <b>nah, this could be the last one.....</b>
body:
.....because the last time, by prophecy and what Ish says in the prologue of tEotW, that they'll fight until time dies.<br /><br />I don't think thats a 'pigs flying' comment because Farstrider told the Eldar that the DO was going to kill time for good, remember?<br /><br />Is the Last Battle to mark the completed rotation of the wheel? Or is it then end to time itself?<br /><br /><br />Either way, we run out of books to read .... gotta hate that.


created: 2002-01-15 04:15:18
subject: <b>To make prison without bore...</b>
body:
<br />...Rand has to and will balefire Cyndane/Lanfear and Moridin/Ismael.<br /><br />Sorry, if i spoiled your fun.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />ULTIMATE J&#196;L&#196;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-01-15 11:28:15
subject: <b>How would that help?</b>
body:
It was Mieran and Beidoman that made the Bore.  But Balefire powerful enough to undo damage that far back...  The repercussions would undo almost everything that happened since, like the War of the Shadow, the Breaking, most of the Third Age...<br /><br />Bad things.<br /><br />~Godefroy


created: 2002-01-17 22:42:34
subject: <b>Godefroy,</b>
body:
Not use balefire to destroy them that far back, that theory already got shot to hell. instead, balefire them so they can't come back and recreate the bore, or open it, or do anything, because they would not exist the next time the 2or3 age came along that they did what they did.<br /><br />Anyways, basically I said, don't use the undo button, but instead use a form of prevention.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">___________________<br />Evilmonkey<br /><br /><i>&quot;Madness waits for some. It creeps up on others.&quot;</i><br />-Lews Therin Telamon</font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-24 03:52:18
subject: <b>Refuting The End of the One Power Theory</b>
body:
While this seems logical one crucial point is missed: What made the bore? The One Power! If, before the bore was created, all the One Power was in the wall to contain the DO, then there would have been nothing to make the Bore in the first place!<br /><br />Simple. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gandalf.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-01-25 08:57:59
subject: <b>To Aran'gar</b>
body:
I remember reading a quote from RJ himself that while balefire stops the DO from bringing people back, they can still be spun out.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Reading: The Woodlanders - Thomas Hardy</font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-02 21:39:02
subject: <b>are you kidding?</b>
body:
I do not believe the one power CAN be used up.Its not a finite thing, As an analogy, I would say that it would be like telling everybody in New orleans and St.Louis to drink all the water in the Mississippi River. No matter how much they drank, there would still be more.<br /><br />I think it more likely that as the number of channelers dwindle, as seems to be happening (yes, I know about the 1000 new novices, and the asha'man, and the taint being removed, but...) the power will be gradually forgotten by all but a few, who will be persecuted and murdered by a narrow-minded, dogmatic, and jealous religious hierarchy. We have how that can happen in our own world, with witch trials and horrible executions perpetrated on a minority of people who happen to be born with a special talent. (sorry, angry Pagan comeing out there, I have an ancestor who was burned at the stake)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Tai'Shar Preussen!<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/seanchan.gif" border="0" /> Der Ritter des Lichtes  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> Lord Protector of the Lady B.Alicia <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-24 08:23:26
subject: <b>Can there really be no DO?</b>
body:
If we look at the greater picture the DO is the exact opposite of the Creator and the power that breaks down instead of builds. RJ said somewhere that the WoT-world is unbalanced, he did not say why but I think that it means that the power of the DO is at present too strong. But in order for the world to be in balance you need powers that break down as well as powers that build only in the right balance (for example things that decompose become new nutrient-rich soil for more things to grow). I am holding off on the &quot;After TG&quot; theories coz I think I'd rather RAFO. RJ works in mysterious ways and I can't speculate about the actual ending. (But it's great fun reading all the speculation!!)<br /> Carry on speculating! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="Silver"><i>Harsh world be damned,<br />let's make a stand...</i></font> <br /><br /><font color="orange">Saknar Korybj&#246;rnen&#8482;<br /></font></font><p></p>


created: 2004-02-29 11:11:22
subject: <b>duh, again</b>
body:
of course the power ends why do you think mat is so interested  in gun powder? or Rand is encouraging an industrial revolution at his libraries?  the common man must eventually share abilities (he must fly again and wield laptops and hand helds) with the elite, the nefilim, the magi, aes sedai to create true equallity by reeling them down to their level by the removal of the one power or eradicating them.  What better way to eradicate the whole lot than inspiring them to fight a war and kill each other. Communists.


created: 2004-11-16 14:11:38
subject: <b>No Idea Why I'm Writing This...No-One's Going to See It...</b>
body:
I have a feeling that the ability to Channel will eventually disappear. I have encountered at least twice in the first six books cases where Aes Sedai talk about &quot;Culling the ability to Channel&quot;<br /><br />It really comes down to whether or not the Aes Sedai and Asha'Man can act fast enough before there are none left. <br /><br />Just my two pence (doesn't sound as good as 'my two cents.' Still...)<br /><br />BlademasterX<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lan.gif" border="0" /> Warder to Whoever Will Have Me <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />More Than Twice as Cool As: <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> Hotter Than the Sun <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /> Entirely In Love With Myself <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-17 15:06:25
subject: <b>dittos</b>
body:
<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angry.gif" border="0" /> I SAID DITTOS GOD DAMN YOU POST SYSTEM!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> the wheel of time turns..... <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rand.gif" border="0" /> rand was killed by me <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /> die moiraine die <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-red.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-08-29 22:34:47
subject: <b>No</b>
body:
I do believe that use of the One Power will end, however, this theory is very out there...the One Power was USED to drill the Bore, which was detected by the Power as a source that could possibly be used by Male and Female channelers alike...


created: 2009-01-09 08:06:34
subject: <b>IT cant be</b>
body:
In all the books I have not heard it exsplained where the OP acually came ffrom and i assume it is a gift of the creator .I beleave it is limitless.<br />  Then you have to take into account the fact that there will be alot of peaple unwilling to give up the OP,REDS for one ,and dark friends, Sean Chan leash holders. Who could coordinate such an effort?<br />


created: 2002-01-10 17:11:18
subject: <b>It's obvious that the Oath Rod</b>
body:
is repsonsible for the ageless faces of the Aes Sedai. That would be why Nynaeve has neither the ageless face or does she look her age (the slowing), and the windfinders and wise ones also do not have the ageless face. (I believe the look remarked on by Perrin (?) about how the Wise Ones shared some of the knowing wisdom of the Aes Sedai has more to do with their status than the OP).<br /><br />Anyway, it is entirely possible that the Oath Rod also has some sort of effect in limiting the age of an AS as well. It is also possible that all the rods that have been seen in the books are Rods of Dominion, and the numbers have absolutely nothing to do with that.<br /><br />Rob the Poser<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Rob<br /><br />&quot;I am satisfied that your answer is correct. I am not, however, satisfied that your answer is right...&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-10 17:37:26
subject: <b>I agree (kind of)</b>
body:
I'm not sure why Rob the Poser needed to reiterate what is already assumed (re: the shortened lives), but thanks anyway for the summation.<br /><br />However, the point about the numbers is valid. I've not seen any reason to assume that the 'Rods with numbers on' aren't the 'Rods of Dominion'. This isn't to say that _every_ rod we meet is a RoD, but the ones with numbers could be.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Jeremias <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sleepy.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-10 18:39:40
subject: <b>your totally off</b>
body:
the oath rod is NOT one of the nine rods of dominion.  so far we have never seen a rod of dominion, not to know it anyway.  the only reason we even have the name 9 Rods of dominion is from the preface in book one.<br />the oath rod, or rods i should say are nothing more than &quot;Binders&quot; which were used to punish criminals by preventing them from ever bveing able to commit their crime again.  sounds likw the oath rod doesnt it...  swear and oath not to lie, and you can never tell a striaght lie again.  (wow, those are so similar its striking)<br />Semerhige also stated quite clearly that when her Sadists practices were uncovered, they were going to use the binders on her.  and so she fled rather than be unable to have her pleasures and also go to an early grave. (dont have exact quote)<br />so, binders prevent them from doing things and also shorten their lives.  as for the &quot;ageless look&quot; it was probably either a side effect, or a purposeful addition to the binding in order to &quot;MARK&quot; the criminal as one who had commited a serious crime, much like we used to tattoo prisoners, or in some places, brand them on the cheek.<br />As for the drastic differences between the life spans of Aes Sedai and the Kin, it may be because of the Oath Rod, or it may actually be the number of Oaths the swear.  meaning each oath knocks off so much of your life span, and additional oaths take more.  the real question is how much more? is it simply saying, 1 oath = 100 years, so 3 oath = 300?  or is it more of a subtraction of percentages? 1 oath = 20% life expectancy, 3 oaths = 20% + 10% +10%?


created: 2002-01-10 21:47:24
subject: <b>The numbers might not be sequential</b>
body:
Take, for example, the Qabbalistic numbers of the sun (pull out your copies of Agrippa's &quot;De Occulta Philosophia&quot;, blow the dust off, ward yourselves against the unspeakable evil that lurks within and proceed).  The square is comprised of a grid of 36 lesser squares or boxes (6x6) with numbers inside them.  The base number of the sun is 6 (the number of subdivisions of any side).  Add up the numbers in any horizontal or vertical row and one gets 36.  Add up any four symmetrically aligned boxes (i.e., the four corner boxes and those diagonally placed to them going towards the center of the square) and you get 72.  Add up all the numbers in the square and you get 666 - yes, the number of the beast! There are means of deriving two other numbers from this square - 111 and 888.  Now, that's 6, 36, 72, 111, 666, 888 - by halving the numbers with six in them you get 3, 6, 18, 36, 72, 111, 333, 666, 888 - nine numbers.  3+6=9. 18=9+9. 36=9x4.  72=9x8. 333=9x37. 666=9x74.  Take the &quot;odd&quot; numbers 111 and 888 and you get 999 or 9x111.  It's all interconnected with nines, isn't it?<br /><br />Now, I'm not saying RJ went to all this trouble.  I'm just pointing out there could be some bizarre reasons for the rods to be numbered other than sequentially.  <br /><br />Long live the Bavarian Illuminati!  Cthulhu fthagn rl'yeh!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Annoying wotmaniacs for 10 years.<br /><br />Oh, I don't have time for this. I have to go and buy a single piece of fruit with a coupon and then return it, making people wait behind me while I complain. - Prof. Farnsworth<br /> <br /><b>The Voice of Lews Therin</b><br /><br /></font><p><a href="http://www.waronterrortheboardgame.com/" target="_blank">Find out what WOT really means...</a></p><p></p>


created: 2002-01-11 02:17:07
subject: <b>Numerals not numbers</b>
body:
Sorry to comment but when I read the 111 in the book I immediately thought of it as III instead and thus 3 - but no one in the current age has heard of numerals so they are not intepreting it.<br /><br />Explains the issue much easier in my opinion.


created: 2002-01-11 03:10:10
subject: <b>Yikes!</b>
body:
I'm not so sure I like all that about boxes and numbers, and all! I <i>hate</i> math! Anyway...I can't remember if it ever says what number is on the rod that the Black (Red) sister captured by the Aiel used. I know it says the number is different, but I can't remember what number it <i>is</i>.<br /><br />No more nonsense...I have nothing substantial to say, so I'll stop.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">By now the whole of her life has been traded like a pawn<br />That's why she knows the price...of living with the safety on</font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-11 11:33:09
subject: <b>Maybe 3 groups of 3 rods?</b>
body:
I had a thought based of that Roman Numeral post. What if the Oath Rods are the 9 Rods, but divided into groups for some reason? So we'd have Rods 1, 2, 3 that are similar, I, II, III that are similar, and then A, B, C, (Ok, I ran out of numbers. Maybe they all have similar functions as binders, but the actual effects on life span or agelessness are different.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Long Live Taimandred! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sammy.gif" border="0" /><br />Cybrmnk <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gandalf.gif" border="0" /> -One of the last remaining believers in the Taimandred theory.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-11 12:04:23
subject: <b>Why?</b>
body:
If the oath rod was a rod of dominion, then why do the Forsaken think of them as binders (not as rods of dominion)?<br /><br />The rods of dominion were most likely well known symbols of power and authority. The binders were little known and little used objects of punishment.  Ishy in the prologue of EotW is trying to taunt LTT.  Why would Ishy say that LTT could summon (or whatever the term was) nine objects that were rarely used and little known about?<br /><br />I don't care what the BWB says.  They are not the same.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">RabidWombat<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> Let the Lord of Rambling Thoughts rule <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> Proud owner of a 2 star rating! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /> Someone stole all my cookies <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-11 15:41:16
subject: <b>Generally on rods of dominion, and theory.</b>
body:
As Rabidwombat says, there is hardly anything other than the fact that both seem to be rods, that the Binders (like the Oath Rod) and the Nine Rods of Dominion have in common. Unfortunately we have seen quite few rods in the books and this idea seems to gain some following despite the low probability.<br /><br />Regarding the few arguments that are brought forward:<br /><br />Numbers vs numerals. It's said that the Rod Galina takes her Oaths on (with the Shaido) are marked with the number 111. Although this seem to indicate Randland uses a decimal system, it says nothing about exactly what these figures look like. It seems ridiculous to assume that the language everybody speaks in Randland actually is English or that their numbers are written the exact way ours are. 111 is simply the translation of what it would be in the common tounge compared to our own language. That they also would have a strange and forgotten numeral system that happens to make 3 look like 111, combined with the fact that these systems were both used at the same time (since it seems probable the two rods were marked in the same era) is for me totally incomprehensible, and I would be quite mad if Robert Jordan ended up meaning that.<br /><br />Regarding the Oath Rod being a binder. Well, Rabidwombat pretty much explained this. The Rods of Dominion are mentioned with great respect and something that Lews Therin should be proud of to have gathered under him (it seems they were symbols of something, possibly of positions around Randland, although other interpretations are possible). The binders are instead talked about in quite derogatory language and simply does not seem to have any significance to the Forsaken other than possibly having caused them trouble. And they are referred to as Binders rather than anything else. Moreover it's very difficult to see how their function could make them be called Rods of Dominion.<br /><br />No, I'd like to see some better arguments before I will even think of believing the Oath Rod is a Rod of Dominion!<br /><br />Regarding the theory, I have no trouble believing the Rods either would have different functions (simply being more or less severe punishments), or could possible each one be used to make a punishment more or less severe. The problem with the 3 marking this though is as noted above the number 111 on the other Rod. It's fully concievable (or even likely) that 3 could be the factor at which the Slowing is divided by for those taking three Oaths. But if 111 would be that factor for the other Rod, Galina would age very quickly and could possibly die before Tarmon Gaidon! If that is true, I'm sure the next book should make sure! It does not seem likely right now though.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /> Yubi <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Disclaimer:<br />This person has a bad memory, too much belief in his own opinions and hasn't read the books for 30 months. Therefore take anything he says with a huge load of salt. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-12 02:02:34
subject: <b>Additional Thought</b>
body:
Extra thought since earlier post - on subject of binders<br /><br />In the Semihage pov in one of the earlier books - it gives her thoughts on why she swore to the dark one, don't have books with me to check but im fairly sure that it was because she was offered a choice between stilling and being bound not to know her pleasures of inflicting pain.<br /><br />Cant remember the exact details - but the pov made me think that the oath rods or binders were in fact a legal punishment on antisocial behaviour. In Semi's case she was sadistic with her use of the power, hence either lose the power or be subjected to therapy.<br /><br />Makes me think of a court judgement.


created: 2002-01-12 12:55:15
subject: <b>New thoughts, as well..</b>
body:
I agree with the idea that the Forsaken should know the Oath Rod for what it is, whether Rod of Dominion or binder. Since they haven't called it a Rod yet -and Sammael had one in his possession after all- I'm content to think it a binder.<br /><br />My thought is that the Rods of Dominion were like the wizards' staves in the Lord of the Rings; a symbol of their title and power. So perhaps the governors of the major cities held them, or something like that, so when the Dragons summoned them, it meant summoning the leaders of the land for a council. Or <i>something</i> like that. <br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">By now the whole of her life has been traded like a pawn<br />That's why she knows the price...of living with the safety on</font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-15 11:10:07
subject: <b>You almost had it...</b>
body:
I don't think the numbering of the rods has anything to do with how long channelers live.  I do however, think that taking the Oaths may very well limit the lifespan of the Oathtaker.  Why else would the women of the Kin have lived so long?  It's entirely possible that no oaths=longer life.  Wonder if the AS will smack themselves in the forehead when they figure THAT one out. Hee hee!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />  Erith  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />The higher, the fewer.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-15 17:37:16
subject: <b>It may be one of the 9 RoD</b>
body:
the number could mean anything. The forsaken didnt talk about the rod as a binder among themself but to the shaido and i hardly think the shaido would know what a rod of dominion is. The fact that the oath rod was used for punishing criminal AS in the AoL doesnt talk against them being RoDs. Since crime was unusual and most AS were important persons in the AoL, controlling the thing that punished them may be a symbol of power.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" />Bela is a darkfriend, i swear it.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" /><br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />Hurin is the DO<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" /> All your Balrog, are belong too us <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" /><br />Reality is for those that cant cope with randland.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-22 18:50:12
subject: <b>Good Job, Crazy Aes Sedi</b>
body:
I believe that when Gandalf and co go to vist saruman once he's locked up and Gandalf tells him to give him his staff, he makes a comment about how Gandalf would be wanting all X # of staffs (X=# of wizards, i believe it's nine) therefore, the rods, if compaired with the 9 wizard staves, would be powerful Angreal that are also used to show status, and that by controling all 9, you would be very powerful in your use of the power, and politically...<br /><br />This little theory may be completely burnt to ashes <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> if it turns out that somebody RAFOs and flames <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">___________________<br />Evilmonkey<br /><br /><i>&quot;Madness waits for some. It creeps up on others.&quot;</i><br />-Lews Therin Telamon</font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-22 21:06:21
subject:
<b><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> I have RAFOd and I was mistaken <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /></b>

body:
The # stated by Saruman is 5, not nine, but the rest might still be accurit<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">___________________<br />Evilmonkey<br /><br /><i>&quot;Madness waits for some. It creeps up on others.&quot;</i><br />-Lews Therin Telamon</font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-18 19:39:53
subject: <b>The Rods of Dominion</b>
body:
In response to an earlier post, the oath rods were originally used for punishment.  There is ample evidence of that.  There is, of course, Semi's backstory about how she turned to the DO.  There is also (and I can't remember where) a scene where one of the forsaken thinks about the AS as children and muses that they have chosen to bind themselves.<br /><br />Now, as for something that may be a new thought, When Rand first entered Rhuidian, he saw hundreds of ter'angreal.  One of them was a staff or spear (perhaps we could call it a rod) that stands on end on its own accord (this is different than the spear in the middle of the columns).  Perhaps that was one of the rods of dominion.  Otherwise, why did RJ spend so much time describing it?<br /><br />There is also another 'rod' mentioned.  Somewhere there is a hollowed bowl with some form of pillar in the middle.  Anyone who comes within a mile of the pillar dies shortly afterward.  Maybe that is another rod of dominion.<br /><br />There is also the 'fluted black rod' that produces balefire (unfortunately uncontrollably).  That rod could definitely help someone achieve dominion (especially if he or she can control it, say by summoning all nine rods).<br /><br />I guess my point is that there plenty of candidates for RoDs.  It is a little hasty to think that they are all oath rods.  Perhaps one of them is some kind of Platonic form of an oath rod of which the binders are only a pale shadow.<br /><br />I hope that adds a little to this discussion.  I stand ready to be torn apart.  Bring it on. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gholam.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> Proud Papa <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> Founder of the Wotmania Writers' Guild <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lan.gif" border="0" /> Warder to no one. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-02 01:02:23
subject: <b>Maybe....</b>
body:
...they all join together and make some wonderful big killing thing.<br /><br /><br />or maybe they were all rods of different kinds, an oath rod (binder) a balefire rod, a compulsion rod, (maybe) and one of every kind of powerful ter'angreal. like a full set of angreal, ter'angreal and stuff. that is supposed to make the userwearer dominate every one. some of cadsuanes ter'angral could fit this theory.<br /><br /><br /><br />or maybe not....<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Seeking Aes Sedai for Bondage... uhh bonding. <br /><br />We rode on the winds of the rising storm,<br />We ran to the sounds of the thunder,<br />We danced among the lightning bolts,<br />and tore the world asunder.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-02 19:33:45
subject: <b>Rods and Aging</b>
body:
In Shadow Rising Egwene mentions that the Wise Ones have something similar, but different from Aes Sedai agelessness.  This would suggest that if ageless faces are associated with shorter lifespans then we have three groups of people that live to be different ages: Aes Sedai, Wise Ones, and the Kin.<br /><br />This would in turn discredit the idea the oath rod is the only thing that causes shorter lives.  Maybe other Ter'angreal can shorten lifespans too.  On the other hand maybe the Wise Ones also have some form of ceremony that utilizes an oath rod.


created: 2002-05-28 08:40:35
subject: <b>Interesting</b>
body:
What i find very interesting about all this is the effect of the oath rod on age, especially as regards forswearing all oaths that bind one. If i may it would seem that black ajah swear extra oaths beside the original three, so it would seem that it would be easy to pick black ajah because they would live to about the age of thirty.<br /><br /> so if they are living AS lifetimes this means that by foreswearing oaths removes the affects of your previos oaths. therefore (as i come to my long awaited point) the age cap on AS is a diliberate affect of the oath rod as part of a criminal sentance it was used to enforce. however i also find it interesting that, because oath rod causes 200 or so year limit it is considered short i dont know how long people lived for in the age of legends but i do know channies lived longer and so i surmise that the oath rod was only used to punish channies ie aes sedai, since in the AoL there has been a white tower so it stands to reason that the oath rod is a punisment for those in the white tower and is neither a binder or RoD.<br /><br /> i would also like to mention that because the age cap is removable by revoking of oaths that it focuses on the distinguishing feature of a channy ie their ability to channel so people who are severed and healed will be removed from their oaths and free of the age cap and ageless face etc<br /><br />my personal note : Seaine Sedai PoV says she personally knew the pain of removing a single oath on page 20 of<br />winters heart. this means she is not black ajah but has removed an oath. what the bloody hell is going on and why has no one mentioned it before me.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />&quot;you say we should make our swords into plowshares. well I say to you what good is a plowshare when trollocs roam the fields&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Caraman Gaiden<br /><br />The journeyman battle brother


created: 2002-08-15 09:27:51
subject: <b>In repsonse to Esmertal...</b>
body:
This staff you are referring to is Mat's ashanderei(sp?). <br /><br />Remember, this scene was told through Mat's POV and he remarks on how it has ravens on it.<br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Now, as for something that may be a new thought, When Rand first entered Rhuidian, he saw hundreds of ter'angreal. One of them was a staff or spear (perhaps we could call it a rod) that stands on end on its own accord (this is different than the spear in the middle of the columns). Perhaps that was one of the rods of dominion. Otherwise, why did RJ spend so much time describing it?</b></font><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="white">Do NOT highlight this space...</font><b><font color="#FF99FF"><i>P</i></font><font color="#006699"> Floyd</font></b><font color="white">...or you'll be in trouble!</font><br /><br /><font color="white">............</font><i>'You're a pacifist with a gun, Eileen.'</i> - Sam Roberts</font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-18 22:54:10
subject: <b>not a R.o.D.</b>
body:
RJ has publicly stated that the oath rod is simply a &quot;binder&quot; and not one of the rods of dominion, yet the WOT role-playing handbook even surmises that it is a RoD, which i would assume RJ oversaw, so who knows?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> &quot;A One that is not cold, is scarcely a One at all.&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-07-10 12:36:56
subject: <b>Arg.</b>
body:
The RPG books are not closely linked to the main series at all, neither were they in RJ's particular attention - any information gleaned from them can be tossed aside as bunk.<br /><br />The ageless look is caused by the Oaths being made a part of that person's being, skin and bone.  It is bound into their flesh and as a side effect decreases the oathtaker's expected lifespan by working against the slowing.  The Kin and the Wise Ones grow to be very old because they do not bind themselves and the slowing is left to do it's work unchecked.  <br />Amys *seems* to have an ageless look because her strength in the power gives her a high degree of slowing which is balanced by her actual age.  Sorilea on the other hand is even older but her slowing is far less apparent because she is weak in the power.<br /><br />The Tower Oath Rod is marked with three lines but this does not have to mean '3' or '111' and is unlikely to.  The Rod given to Sevanna was marked with curvy lines and goodness knows what they mean.  <br /><br />Something noone seems to have remembered is that an Oath Rod can only  be used on a female who can channel, ie not a male and not a member of the general populace.  It isn't surprising considering a non-channeler can be bound by normal means.  Of course you need the power to bind a channeler but why weren't there any made for men?  Sammael tells us there are none but surely crime was not limited to only women.  Why did more than one exist at all in a time when crime was almost unheard of - especially amongst those who could channel?  Undoubtedly then the Oath Rods were made during the War of Power, when Darkfriends and criminals were much more common.  This tells us in yet another way that the Oath Rods are not the Rods of Dominion.<br /><br />                - Dovien Gleeman


created: 2005-05-01 01:51:18
subject: <b>Higher numbers</b>
body:
I thought that i read that the number on the rod given to the Shaido was 47 or something like that. If your theory continued it would mean that people swearing on it would live for 4700 years way longer than anyone even in the AOL.


created: 2005-05-06 11:35:18
subject: <b>oath rod markings</b>
body:
I think they made so many different oath rods is for different levels of crimbs. This would explain the differnt marking, and the different penalties with the tow oath rods we have seen in the books. when giliana (prolly not her name) swears on Savanas rod she goes throught imense pain. but when somebody swears on the towers oath rod they dont feel any pain, untill they use the rod to release them from thier oaths<br /><br />see different punishments <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" />


created: 2005-10-04 08:36:54
subject: <b>WRONG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!</b>
body:
i have read somewhere {i think on this website} that the 9 rods of dominion are in fact political leaders not rods at all.its based apparently on some refferance in the bible.thus these rods are actually ppl from different reigions of randland and it is doubtful that there were any actual rods at all (even for ceremonnial perposes like a crown or scepter- i think they would be above it all and they wouldnt need to show off seeing it was quite modern)<br /><br />    i know i dont have any actual proof i think it was in faq. but we do know jordan likes playing with history


created: 2002-01-10 20:40:01
subject: <b>lmao!!!</b>
body:
well said!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Mystery Aes Sedai<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" />Defender Of The Abnormal<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />&quot;you want a coke?&quot; <br /><br />&quot;sure&quot; <br /><br />&quot;what kind?&quot;<br /><br />&quot;dr. Pepper&quot;  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br />hehe</font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-10 21:32:01
subject: <b>Shouldn't wotmania...</b>
body:
...set up a separate category of Narg Theories and another theory of Bela Theories?  It makes sense, after all.  Let me close with words of wisdom and eloquence: &quot;Narg smart.  Narg stay.&quot;<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Annoying wotmaniacs for 10 years.<br /><br />Oh, I don't have time for this. I have to go and buy a single piece of fruit with a coupon and then return it, making people wait behind me while I complain. - Prof. Farnsworth<br /> <br /><b>The Voice of Lews Therin</b><br /><br /></font><p><a href="http://www.waronterrortheboardgame.com/" target="_blank">Find out what WOT really means...</a></p><p></p>


created: 2002-01-11 00:35:34
subject: <b>(sniffle)</b>
body:
That absolutely brought tears to my eyes.  At least now we know why Cadsuane must make him learn to laugh and cry-Rand was heartless from the start.  I'm going to go drink a case and dedicate it to Narg and Bela, RJ's only commentary on the perils of interracial/species love in that cold and cruel world. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/frown.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-01-11 07:53:05
subject: <b>Explain this then...</b>
body:
Rand killed Bela's sweetie...why did she then serve Rand and company so faithfully for so long (before finally drifting off the scene)??  Hmmm??????<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Wulf`gar<br /><br /><br /><br /><i>&quot;Beware a bunny wearing a pancake beret...It's just good advice.&quot;</i> - mapthis<br /><i>&quot;All I needed was MGB and Fanatic and I coulda died a happy woman.&quot;</i> - Avendesora (speaking of aero and Wulf being in the same chat)</font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-11 07:59:59
subject: <b>poor narg</b>
body:
rand the haertless should be flayed and boiled in oil!!!<br /> ill miss narg and belas forbiden love. *weeps over nargs body* plays drowning pools let the bodies hit the floor in nargs memeroy. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-11 11:03:45
subject: <b>Rand wasn't cruel, just stupid.</b>
body:
Seriously how was he to get that Narg was wanting to get some horsey lovin? I mean maybe a smart cityfied gal like Min, or an old lecher like Thom would figure it out. Rand however was a bumpkin from the country.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-11 11:51:28
subject: <b>Blest be Dylanfanatic for tailing the true to the world!</b>
body:
No love could have been more purer nor passion than the one that never happened between bela and narg<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /> .<br />And if anyone has problem with this theory may I point out that bell was the only animal that wasn&#8217;t kill?!<br />I need no more proof!<br /><br />Isreal is nombur 1 in the world in youth delinquency<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /> <br /> NARG- &quot;Not A Real Gentleman (person obsessive about a boring topic; chiefly British)&quot; <br />Member of the MFNS<br />a Thinking Soldier scares everyone, but his commander the most.<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-11 17:22:05
subject: <b>NargAram</b>
body:
Wait, wait!  You're missing an obvious link here!!!<br /><br />Narg dies and Bela (and the companions) flee the Two Rivers...<br /><br />But soon we meet Aram -- a decidedly un-Tinkerish Tinker.  And of course the first thing he does is go for Egwene, Bela's rider.  I say he was just trying to use Egwene to get to Bela.<br /><br />Now, we know the Dark One can bring back his servants, as we see with Lanfear/Cyndane and the two 'gars.  <br /><br />So..........I say that Narg has been brought back as Aram.  After all, he has a healthy appreciation for weaponry that a Trolloc would have but a Tinker wouldn't.  He seems destined to cause dark problems for Perrin, which would fit his background as well.<br /><br />The Dark One plans to use Narg/Aram to mate with Bela, cause disruption to the White Tower and foster a fearsome race to use to conquer the World!!!<br /><br />Hey...it could happen.  After all, you never see Narg and Aram together, hmmm?


created: 2002-01-11 17:32:36
subject: <b>No, no, no ... I'm sorry, I just have to straiten some things out here.</b>
body:
Too many, unfortunately, do not see Narg for what he really is.  He is so much more than he appears.  Let me enlighten you all as to the tremendous power and presence that is the Great Narged One.<br /><br />Narg, as we refer to the One, is really the embodiment of Shaitan's purest essence (the smell of meatloaf, anchovies and tequila) residing within the furry features of that lovable trolloc we&#8217;ve all come to care so much about. <br /><br />The Narged One would be too embarrassed to assume his true form &#8211; he&#8217;s actually a giant disgruntled chipmunk in a black sombrero, mask, and tights &#8211; and dons his Narg disguise in the mortal world so as not to get laughed at by women. <br /><br />He keeps well hidden in his bedroom beneath the Pit of Doom where he&#8217;s set up the sweetest set of Alpine subwoofers and amplifiers. The red and purple clouds that streak across the sky above Shayol Ghul are really just the fumes that escape from his bathroom. The dude really should watch what he eats! <br /><br />He uses his divine flatulence to manipulate time and the pattern and to bend the will of the most stubborn of WOT women. With this subtle seduction he was able to talk Bella into &#8220;showing&#8221; her his bedroom, to, as he put it &#8220;check out my unrivaled collection of Hell&#8217;s Angel shot glasses&#8230; and later I&#8217;ll give the best foot massa&#8217; - uh, hoof massage - you&#8217;ve ever had. That&#8217;s all that will happen, I swear!&#8221;<br /><br />Well, we all know how that ended up. Shaitan is now fighting Bella for custody of little Shaidar Hanan. According to the National Enquirer, Bella has been knocked up again but no one seems to know by whom or what. I personally suspect it was Pedron Niall.  You know she likes her men tall, skinny and weird!<br /><br />Any way back to the Narged One. He is insanely jealous of his brother the Creator &#8211; who is really a sagely 5-foot flying squirrel in a white hat and cape with the voice of Neil Diamond &#8211; ever since the Easter Bunny broke up with him and hooked up with God.<br /><br />See the Narged One&#8217;s not that bad a guy, really, he&#8217;s just pissed that his chipmunk hands have trouble with the remote control for his new big screen from Sears. He hates missing a second of &#8220;Days of our Lives&#8221;<br /><br />So Tarmon Gaidin will be an earth shattering apocalyptic battle (the same old beef) between the Dark One (Narg) and the Creator (Gills Cat).<br /><br />The Kahn<br /><br /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /> <br />


created: 2002-01-14 10:46:48
subject: <b>sword</b>
body:
So you've seen the replica on museum replicas too!!!  Yes I am not hullicinating!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Follower of Lan <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lan.gif" border="0" /> <br />Married now <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/oh.gif" border="0" /><br />Loves Japanese history <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ninja.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" />Historian of History<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lan.gif" border="0" />Mandrag<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lan.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-08 23:40:01
subject: <b>How... er... sweet... I think...</b>
body:
Poor Bela. She must be absolutely heartbroken. Narg had it all, really: lots of hair, a face to make grown men wet their pants in terror, a speech impediment, and a brain the size of one of the thousands of fleas in his fur. Bela must be yearning for her true love, and weeping inside like horses do at the loss of one of the greatest man beasts this world has ever seen (well, other than say, Stephanie McMahon.)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> former Akutenshi member <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> Organizer of TRACS <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> member of the Trigger fan club <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />Trigger fears: <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/berelain.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> I'm aliena's jig-dancing partner <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> jealous? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /> If I'm here, consider yourself blessed by my presence <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-15 01:11:13
subject: <b>uh.......</b>
body:
what?<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /> <font color="goldenrod">Lady Alrae of House Carillon</font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /> <font color="maroon">Snooty Tairen Noble Extraordinaire</font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/15233.gif" /> AKA <b><font color="red">Paine</font></b> <img src="images/personalsmilies/15233.gif" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /><b>I HATE STUPID PEOPLE!</b><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />All Hail the <b><font color="blue">Yu</font><font color="orange">Ri</font><font color="red">Pa</font></b>!</font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-21 01:28:00
subject: <b>Narg's truest form</b>
body:
&quot;The Narged One would be too embarrassed to assume his true form &#8211; he&#8217;s actually a giant disgruntled chipmunk in a black sombrero, mask, and tights...&quot;<br /><br />It's actually a Luchadore mask, but who'd bother to nitpick that. Surely not I.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /> + <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bela.gif" border="0" /> = <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" /> (Supreme Ultimate Evil)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">So I'm just sitting there all la-dee-da <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /> when this <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> drops out of nowhere, and Wham! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" /> Son of a mother! Me beautiful eye is on fire! So now I'm all like <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/uno.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-11 00:44:26
subject: <b>Ummm...</b>
body:
What were you smoking when you wrote this that gave you the insight to com up with the truth about Narg and Bela? I definitely need to get me some so I can have the clairvoyance that you do.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/seanchan.gif" border="0" />&quot;The Black Knight Always triumphs!!!!!&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-22 03:51:49
subject:
<b>That's a touching good story <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/frown.gif" border="0" /></b>

body:
Awww. I laughed, I cried, it moved me, Bob! And why does Bella dissapear in the EOTW? Poor old Bela. She escpes from her human masters to cross the length and breadth of the Land, seeking to find her beloved Narg. Anybody got a tissue?<br /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> I am the Lizard Queen <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /><br />All shall love me and dispair <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" />


created: 2003-04-23 11:46:05
subject: <b>Long time coming............</b>
body:
After all this time I believe I have heard the truth.  I have heard it told by the local &quot;dragon sworn&quot; that in truth, Narg was killed by Rand not because Rand was obviously inept with a sword, but because Rand himself, carried a deep passion for Bella.  He could not understand what Bela saw in Narg.  It is sad, he never really gave Bela a chance to love him.  Too quickly did he let his jealousy control him and cause him to slay in premeditated murder of Narg!!!!!!!


created: 2003-05-02 10:46:41
subject: <b>Aha! (CoT spoiler)</b>
body:
Of course how can i be so stupid. Bela and Narg the 2 love.......um.......birds?<br />Well anyway Bela wants revenge on Rand for killing Narg so when Egwene went out for a ride in CoT. And she was captured by some Aes Sedai i think. Anyway Egwene thought someone had betrayed her and you guessed it, she was riding Bela. This was Bela's plan:<br />-She would lead Egwene in a trap when Egwene goes out for a ride.<br />-After Egwene was captured Bela hoped that Rand would come to save Egwene since Rand loves her.<br />-When Rand comes Bela will kill Rand and impale him on a spear.<br />But Bela didn't know that Egwene broke up with Rand which foiled her plan. Alas poor Bela who will never avenge her lovers death *sigh*. If you don't understand me, the taints taking hold of me. So gasp!!!<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />TheGnome<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/frown.gif" border="0" />I feel the taint<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/frown.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" />I see dead people<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" />Go Goblins and Gnomes<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" />


created: 2004-04-06 11:33:06
subject: <b>whoa...</b>
body:
sweet jesus that's some strong crack<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Now that we've re-elected the emperor...when is &quot;strategery&quot; being added to the dictionary?</font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-16 00:59:11
subject: <b>It's not Healing, I don't think</b>
body:
Am I first? This has never happened before...<br /><br />I think Rand is just infusing strength into Bela-- not actually Healing or Delving (then he might actually have to have contact, I don't know). Asmodean does a similar thing when Rand is hurt in Cairhien in TFoH (I don't have the books or I'd reference it, sorry).<br /><br />~Jynna


created: 2002-01-16 02:27:51
subject: <b>something</b>
body:
Is it not so that it just is more effective when physically contact is made. Nynaeve when she is going to heal Logain, she dosen't want to have physically contact with him. but it was far more effective.


created: 2002-01-16 03:56:22
subject: <b>If i remeber correectly...</b>
body:
I believe someone said that healing was essentially more effective if the person was touched.  <br /><br />Though because Rand didn't touch Bela, his urge for her to continue was sooooo incredible strong, i think what he did from afar would equal say Moiraine laying her hands on the horse and reviving it.  <br /><br />My 2&#162;<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /><br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /><br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-16 06:52:33
subject: <b>Just a different way of doing things</b>
body:
I remember a couple of occasions during the series when Aes Sedai have been surprised at how Rand can do things in unexpected ways or do things very easily that others find pretty hard. Maybe this thing about him &quot;healing&quot; Bela without physical contact is just an example of this.<br /><br />A case of he knows subconsciously what he wants to do and saidar just does it without Rand having to think through the process. Aes Sedai, with their years of training have to think through the processes (one of which involves physical contact for healing) they learnt while channeling those particular weaves. Rand wasn't learning at this point and was acting on an instinctive level.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Jimbo <br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> We come, brother. We hunt. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />&quot;But I don't want to go among mad people,&quot; Alice remarked.<br />&quot;Oh, you can't help that,&quot; said the Cat: &quot;we're all mad here.&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-16 07:25:18
subject: <b>Re: How did Rand Help Bela</b>
body:
Vercingetorix's reply seemed valid, but I thought that i'd check it out myself. I know that to Delve, the Aes Sedai lay their hands on, as they do when they're healing, but in The Shadow Rising, Playing with Fire, page 139, Egwene weaves Air, Water and Spirtit and uses the weaves to touch Rand's never healed wound on his side. This is a form of Delving, surely, so maybe strength does have something to do with it. Rand is alot stronger than Egwene and so can heal from a distance.


created: 2002-01-16 09:55:40
subject: <b>Verin in TSR</b>
body:
When Perrin is hurt from the trolloc arrow stuck in his ribcage, he rides into the 2 rivers and Verin delves him, seemingly from afar without direct contact and immediatly knows that his wound is infected and needs Alanas skill to heal.  I'm not 100% sure of this and I don't have the books here at work with me, I'd appreciate it if anyone can find the exact quote and determine if I'm correct or not.


created: 2002-01-16 10:46:02
subject: <b>Rand's a wilder</b>
body:
I don't think Rand's not touching Bela has anything to do with some undiscovered art of Healing, but merely a wilder's first weaving.<br /><br />Moiraine has said that oftentimes a wilder's first channeling is brought on by wanting something very badly. Nynaeve's first time was Healing Egwene, though it never says whether or not she laid hands upon her.<br /><br />In Rand's case, he wants, almost needs Bela to stay with the other horses so they won't leave Egwene behind.<br /><br />I want to know how channelers cannot recreate these weavings of need after they start to channel more frequently.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-01-16 11:01:14
subject: <b>Rand Sucks at Healing</b>
body:
He said so himself, in Path of Daggers (I think). In fact, he has almost zero talent in it. <br /><br />But he wasn't healing Bela. It wasn't fatigue that was Bela's problem.  What Rand did was infuse her with strength so that she was able to actually keep up with Mandarb, a powerful, trained warhorse.<br /><br />I think this is also, as others say, part of being a wilder.  What he did, before his training, tended to not fit into standard rules.  How did he make himself grow huge in Tarwin Gap and Falme?  That's never been mentioned...but it's possible, since Ishamael also did.


created: 2002-01-16 16:29:11
subject: <b>ishamael healing</b>
body:
i seem to remember him saying that the dark ones healing is different than that of the power... True Source (or whatever it's called)  so he healed differently and i don't think that we ever get a PoV of some one actualy channeling the true source so things  may be done differently.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I am Dalindor! Monk of many large evil thing butt woopings!!!!</font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-16 17:25:18
subject: <b>Touch</b>
body:
There is a time when a female channeler does a delving (or someting very colse) without touching.  When Nynaeve studies Logan just before she Heals him, she does it without touching because she wants no contact with him.  Then she grabs hold of his head because the information she got from the Delving was clearer when she was holding him.<br /><br />So it is possable, it just isn't very effective.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Telvin</font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-16 17:27:44
subject: <b>Making Horses Sprint for Dummies, Version 1.1</b>
body:
Much akin to the Warder Bond benefits, perhaps through some strange happenstance, Rand created a weave that partially mimicked the Warder Benefits and imbued it upon Bela.  Increased strength, faster rate of healing, etc. etc. etc.  His overwhelming will to have Bela keep pace fascilitated the manifestation of his Wilder talents.  It could be a weave known by LTT, and therefore Rand wouldn't necessarily have to 'know' he knew it, he just knew it instinctively and can't replicate it.  (I don't mean to imply he bonded Bela either, but you get the idea.  Similar types of benefits.)<br /><br />His channeling also could have been a weave of air that propelled Bela faster, or kept her feet from contacting the ground (reduces friction and resistance) or any other number of subtle environmental changes, that would have allowed Bela to keep her speed up.  He could have been dragging Bela along behind him in a flow of air.  The horses legs still flailed and moved, but it never in fact struck the ground, it was just pulled along behind Rand.<br /><br />I always dumb down my theories, the obvious is often times the case. <br /><br /><br />The Seeker  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />O' Magi!<br />How shall I atone?<br />For sins so deep<br />that Satan weeps.


created: 2002-01-16 17:32:53
subject: <b>Obvious?</b>
body:
The obvious answer is usually the right one.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br />Except when it is R.J. writing the question.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Telvin</font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-16 17:56:51
subject: <b>Never Thought of That</b>
body:
perhaps it just requires skill, or maybe some wilder person muddleing through it can do the impossible if they wish hard enough<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Emperor of Draco <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /> Lord Tiger VII <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> Reigning Animal Lord <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /> Hater of Imbeciles <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> Wise Guy <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />        lord_tiger_vii_@hotmail.com</font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-16 19:29:32
subject: <b>4 options:</b>
body:
1.) Rand doesn't need to use his hands because men channel differently from women. (From ACoS: &quot;Flinn traced his finger along the puffy gash in Rand's side and across the old scar. ... &quot;These are alike, but different&quot;... He caught sight of Min ... hastily he rearragned the sheet to cover Rand to his neck, leaving only the old wound and the new exposed.... beginning to move calloused hands above Rand's side... He squinted, focusing on the injuries, and his fingers writhed slowly. Very much as though he was weaving threads...&quot; I think that's the quote that people were looking for earlier. So the actual phrasing is &quot;above&quot;, and in typical RJ fashion it gives us the impression that Damer wasn't touching Rand, but all the same leaving it as a reasonable possibility...)<br /><br />2.) It isn't actually necessary to touch someone to heal them, it's just a technique that people learn with the weave. Like the way Aes Sedai can't, say, make a fireball without some sort of throwing gesture, but maybe Avi or one of the Wise Ones could.<br /><br />3.) Rand actually DID touch Bela some time during the trip, it just wasn't in the book/ it was for so short a time that he forgot about it.<br /><br />4.) What he did was a different type of weave, not actual Healing, and thus didn't need the physical contact.<br /><br />Thought I might as well list them. There might be others that I have missed, but I think these are the main ones.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Doesine<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" />Aes Sedai of the Yellow Ajah <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />intermittent lurker<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-16 19:47:15
subject: <b>I agree</b>
body:
with many people here. I would however like to say...did Rand grow big during Tarwin's Gap? I have no recollection of that.<br /><br />::Runs off to books::


created: 2002-01-16 23:42:20
subject: <b>Re: &quot;ishamael healing&quot; and &quot;Obvious?&quot;</b>
body:
About &quot;ishamael healing&quot;, well more toward that PoV.<br /><br />There is a PoV with the TS being used.  Don't remember where exactly; I'll need someone to find the quote for me.  I'll probably find the time later to find it myself.  Anyway, Moridin did use it during one of his PoV's.  He was thinking of something that was making him really mad.  When he snapped out of that thought, he realized that he was using the TS.  He had killed one of his servants.<br /><br />About &quot;Obvious?&quot;<br /><br />&quot;The obvious answer is usually the right one.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br />Except when it is R.J. writing the question.&quot;<br /><br />I like what Telvin said there.  It defintely speaks the truth about RJ and his books.


created: 2002-01-17 08:29:01
subject: <b>How they learn to channel</b>
body:
Most Aes Sedai learn to heal by touching the person.  I believe Nynaeve can do it with out touching, but she needs her herbs.  She was alyways saying in the first books that &quot;If only I had my herbs....&quot;  She also stated that alot of times people got better when they surely should have died, but she had always used her herbs.  Then got angry becuase it wasn't fair for that person to die or some such reason.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where is my Hannelore?<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-17 09:27:03
subject: <b>EXACTLY!!!!</b>
body:
Its simply the difference between instinct and conscious control.<br /><br />On the one hand you have channelers who have taught themselves a certain process, on the other a wilder who channels without thinking about it and without being aware of the fact.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Jimbo <br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> We come, brother. We hunt. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />&quot;But I don't want to go among mad people,&quot; Alice remarked.<br />&quot;Oh, you can't help that,&quot; said the Cat: &quot;we're all mad here.&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-17 09:29:18
subject: <b>............</b>
body:
Although in Nynaeve's case it was a bit of both <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Jimbo <br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> We come, brother. We hunt. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />&quot;But I don't want to go among mad people,&quot; Alice remarked.<br />&quot;Oh, you can't help that,&quot; said the Cat: &quot;we're all mad here.&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-17 10:49:57
subject: <b>Channelling and Gestures</b>
body:
&quot;1.) Rand doesn't need to use his hands because men channel differently from women.&quot;<br /><br />EVERYONE can, and does, learn channelling differently.<br /><br />Bear with me, please, as I cannot cite page/books.<br /><br />1. Moiraine (or was it Verin?) mentioned how Aes Sedai learned different gestures for the same thing, and once they learned a particular gesture, they could NOT ever unlearn it.  That even one could tell who an Aes Sedai had studied under as a Novice/Accepted if they were familiar enough.<br /><br />2.  A Forsaken (sorry, can't remember whom, but I think Moghedien. Or Graendal) sneered at the 'half-trained' channelers of this age for using childish gestures, etc. <br /><br />3.  Rand almost -never- uses gestures, and if he does, I think it's merely his own expession and nothing to do with his channeling.  <br /><br />Examples:  <br />-- When early on, Elayne and Egwene tried to help him learn in Tear, and he freaked and channeled a dozen different flows without just his thought.<br /><br />-- When Bashere hurled a dagger at him during sword practice to demonstrate the foolishness of training with mundane weapons when he has the Power to use.  <br /><br />-- Assaulting Couladin in front of Cairhien, he was generating ligthning while staring through a telescope, i.e., not gesturing.<br /><br />4.  Lews Therin was from the Age of Legends, and presumably would share the Forsaken's (mentioned above) ability in channeling without gestures.  Since the vast majority of Rand's 'training' comes from a Forsaken (Asmodean) and LTT, it's reasonable to assume he doesn't have to gesture since he didn't learn that way.<br /><br />Basically, gesturing is not required in channeling, but how one learns to do a 'spell' is locked in.  And if they learned it with what should be unnecessary steps, then those steps then become necessary.<br /><br />Lastly, about Bela....um...someone mentioned obvious...<br /><br />Rand's a ta'veren.  He causes things to happen as he needs them, and maybe that's what he did.  Moiraine only speculated, and she wasn't always right, and she only knows what male channelers and ta'vern do -- not how they do it.


created: 2002-01-17 11:52:28
subject: <b>Perhaps</b>
body:
Rand actually does have some Talent when it comes to Healing. You just have to look at it this way:<br /><br />Example - Aviendha<br /><br />The first time Aviendha Travels is when she is trying to escape from Rand and ends up in Seanchan. She does it without knowing what she's doing.<br /><br />When Aviendha is taught the how to Travel by...probably Elayne...she has GREAT difficulty doing it, because it's not the way she initially did it. However, others don't know this and I don't think she realises it herself, so it's assumed that it's just something she struggles with.<br /><br />Rand<br /><br />The first time Rand Heals (and taking away someone's weariness is Healing despite what some people may say) is with Bela. He does it without knowing what he's doing.<br /><br />When Rand is actually told how to Heal either by Asmodeon or at the Black Tower, he finds that he can't do it very well at all. HOWEVER, just look at the parallel's with Aviendha. Firstly they both do something they've never done before without thinking. Secondly they both do it effectively. Thirdly they both forget how they did it. Fourthly they are both shown another way to do it and neither are any good at this different way.<br /><br />We've been led to believe that Rand has little to no Talent when it comes to Healing, but if he can just somehow remember how he did it the first time (very unlikely), manage to pull up the memory from LTT or see another man Healing the same way he did, I think we may see that he is at least quite reasonable at it, the same way Elayne or Egwene are.


created: 2002-01-17 12:01:46
subject: <b>Rand's own admission</b>
body:
In Path of Daggers, when meeting with Narisma, Roaid and others in a council tent as he was travelling to meet the Seanchan, in his own POV he said, &quot;He himself had no talent with it&quot; (paraphrased quote, but close).  <br /><br />Bela's weariness was not taken away.  People get exhausted and Aes Sedai remove their weariness, but Bela didn't get weary in the first place.  She, a simple horse, not only kept up with a massively powerful and well-trained warhorse, but was fresh at the end of the journey.  She never GOT tired, and was faster than she should've been.<br /><br />There was nothing to Heal, since there was no reduction in strength or health


created: 2002-01-17 17:19:07
subject: <b>Lord of Chaos</b>
body:
In Lord of Chaos, in the prolouge (pg 24 of the hardcover editon), Nynaeve says that Moghedian told her that men were better at certian kinds of healing.  Moghedian was also aware, but incabable (her Talents didn't swing that way, except for maybe a bruise) of a method to Heal with all the energy for healing coming from the Power, not the healed.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-01-17 19:00:08
subject: <b>No</b>
body:
&quot;In Path of Daggers, when meeting with Narisma, Roaid and others in a council tent as he was travelling to meet the Seanchan, in his own POV he said, &quot;He himself had no talent with it&quot; (paraphrased quote, but close).&quot;<br /><br />Did you not read my post? I said that Rand would think that he has little to no skill in the area because he will have tried Healing the way someone has demonstared to him, not the way he first did it. So of course Rand would think he can't do it, he doesn't realise it's because he's already done it differently before.<br /><br />I still think Rand was Healing Bela of her weariness, perhaps over and over again.


created: 2002-01-18 22:15:58
subject: <b>I am surprised Rand has no healing talent</b>
body:
I always thought talents in channeling usually had a great deal to due with what elements you were particularly strong at.  Rand, being strong at all 5 different elements would seem to be a likely candidate for being a good healer, but it isn't the case.  <br />      Something other ability clearly is involved.  And i am not sure exactly what it is.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ADA- AlannaDawn Anonymous-- helping wotmaniacs recovering from their AlanndaDawn Addictions in a dynamic new 12-step program.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-21 04:36:19
subject: <b>another exsample</b>
body:
rand also tryed to heal the girl in the stone. if i remember right he didn't touch that one either, an i rong... irratatingly rand hasn't healed ever sins so i can't be certain. well i tought to write this anyway <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/blush.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-01-21 08:30:12
subject: <b>well...</b>
body:
well like Aes Sadai have said all through out the series, people do thing with channeling by how they learned how to do it.  like how they throw the arm to make a fireball, they don't need to throw the arm but they do.  so maybe it's just they way they learned to heal.  Maybe lews therwin knew how to heal without touching and thats how rand did it.  anything is possible with channeling, it just how you learn how to do it that dictates what you have to do.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" />Cornbread Master<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />master of all Quifuses<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-01-22 19:27:41
subject: <b>small bit of imparted memory</b>
body:
I recall a PoV from one of the female forsaken (dunno who), who was recalling how some of the better Healers in the AoL could Heal drawing strength from the Power itself, not them or their patient. Maybe this Healing is just like any other weaving, and can be done without contact.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Balefried<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-25 02:48:13
subject: <b>You fools!!</b>
body:
Ok.. its like this:<br /><br />1. Bela was not healed. She was given strength.<br />     -an example of this is when Asmodean gives Rand strength after his long and exhausting day of towers and lightningbolts and shaido and forsaken, etc..<br /><br />Note: that flow did come out of Asmodean, how do I know... Becaus Rand said SO!<br /><br />The case with Bela, well its 50/50.  maybe straight from the One Power, maybe through him.  We don't know, he dosent see his own weaves.<br /><br />But you're missing the picture.  What you fail to see is that Rand, almost always uses the power ought of need.  Well the 'new' ones he discovers.<br /><br />Example: When he was ambushed, so to say, by the Ashaman in Cairhien.  He created that cacoon like.. thing... out of need.  But as you will often note, when he does something once, he usually remembers it.  Need I mention Balefire?<br /><br />So, is this his ability as a ta'veren to direct the power out of need.  Tel'aran'rhiod workes along the same principles.. well sort of, in the SR it did anyways.<br /><br />Or is it just his weilder trait.  To use the power in the way he wants it, without having to atcually figure out a process to do it.<br /><br />Note: I'm saying this for anythig he does with the One Power. Not just healing or infusing strength as male channelers perform their healing.<br /><br />Also note:  I have not mentioned that any of this could be the doing of Lewis Therin Telamon, because he is not real.  He is just a figment of Rands immagination.  Everything he says, or 'teaches' so to say, to Rand is actually Rand's ta'veren ability creating a way for him to accomplish that which he needs so badly.<br /><br />Example: When he is in the chest, with the Aes Sedai sent by the White Tower.  True LTT did help him, but THAT WAS NOT REALLY HIM!!! Its Rand going mad, and having halucinations.  It's his TA'VEREN ability to do something he needs, and he's so friggin loony that he thinks that LTT is helping him!!!


created: 2002-01-28 12:11:26
subject: <b>He touched Bela in the barn before they left two rivers</b>
body:
I think (but I don't have the books here) that Moraine actually told rand that he gave Bela strength in the barn, before Egwene took bela.<br /><br />Rand was pining over leaving bela behind, and saying his goodbye or something and then Egwene showed up...<br /><br />Maybe I drempt this, but I seem to remember it.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perrin.gif" border="0" /> &quot;This may hurt a little<br />          But it's something you'll get used to.&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perrin.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-28 16:24:50
subject: <b>no d373k he didn't do it in the barn,</b>
body:
He did it when they were riding and there was all those Shadowspan(Trollocs, dragkar(sp)) after them. He was afraid Egwene and Bela would be left behind and that fear cause him to unknowily help Bela run however he did do it.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I am cool, are you? <br /><br />The kicker of the seals <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <br />The flame that burned down Tar Valon <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />My arse is the Amyrlin Seat</font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-07 16:26:14
subject: <b>Aha!</b>
body:
I cannot remember exactly which book (Winter's Heart, I believe) but there are repeated references to the fact that Aes Sedai have degenerated to the point where nearly all of them need to use gestures with their weaves. The gestures aren't part of the weave, but they need them nonetheless. Rand just wasn't trained that way. And Asmodean sure as hell didn't have to use his hands...<br /><br />So...


created: 2002-02-14 19:04:32
subject: <b>Bela was cleansed</b>
body:
Rand mentions in PoD that he can cleanse fatigue although he can't Heal.  Most of the times where it might have been useful though, he was either wasted himself or unsure of how to channel (in the lookout tower during the battle at Cairhien or after the Trolloc attack in the camp in the mountains, when Min actually suggests he do it for Moiraine).  Moiraine, when explaining that he had done it to Bela, said there was no need for her to clease Bela's fatigue because someone had already done it.  Finally the same weave dosen't have to be done the same way by the same person. Nynaeve dosen't form 'affinities' with people she heals anymore, and Elayne stated physicl contact was necessary for bonding a warder as she was bonding Birgitte, yet she bonded Rand from a chair across the room.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-22 04:43:42
subject: <b>Ewgene Help Bela Not Rand!</b>
body:
Sorry to say but in either the 1st or 2nd book moriane tells egwene that she didnt need to help bela was because egwene was passing on her strengh to her. i think it was when they were in that cave tunnel thingy on the other side of the Taren River


created: 2002-03-19 10:48:50
subject: <b>I never noticed that</b>
body:
I can't believe I missed that.  I have to go back again and reread everything again to see what else I missed... <br /><br /><br />(vanishes for weeks to reread the series)<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-04-29 19:29:48
subject: <b>Did this not get pointed out at some point?</b>
body:
I seem to remember Moiraine saying something to the effect of &quot;Bella had allready been healed, I should have realized who she was carrying (meaning Egwene).&quot;  So yah this theory is pretty much right.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" />The Dancing Joker<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />I've got my <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" /> on you! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br />


created: 2002-05-06 06:31:59
subject: <b>Moiraine said</b>
body:
When Moiraine said that she didn't need to heal Bela it was in the context of why she should have thought Rand was the Dragon in the first place.  It went along with the fact that when she gave him the coin and formed a sort of bond that he didn't respond the same as the others.  It had nothing to do with Egwene other than the fact that Rand thought he was in love with her and so cleansed the fatigue of Bela, the horse she was riding.  Egwene did nothing, Moiraine even says later in tEotW that Egwene hasn't touched the true source yet and so Moiraine guides her through her first attempts, thus stopping all chances of a block and sickness.


created: 2002-05-09 08:13:51
subject: <b>What</b>
body:
Listen you woolhead goatkissing sheephearder milk drinker.You didnt give a flamin theory so how am I soppose to bloody tear it up.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cusser of words.<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> Killer of flamin darkfriends.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /><br />    Uno1<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/uno.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-15 16:23:46
subject: <b>Re: How did Rand help Bela?</b>
body:
I'll admit, it's been a while since I read tEotW, but I distinctly remember Moiraine, later in the book, saying that Egwene Healed Bela. That explains everything, because Egwene was touching Bela.<br /><br />-Omnimith <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-06-08 17:35:27
subject: <b>stupid Vashti</b>
body:
Haha! How does it feel to have a newbie call you stupid? Not very good, does it? Ha. I'm right, though... rarely have I found one of your blackboard comments that actually made sense and/or was correct. Moiraine said that Bela was Healed, you dummy! It was either Egwene or Rand, but I'm pretty sure it was Rand cuz he got sick in Baerlon, &amp; a channeler's reaction to their first channeling is a short sickness. So there. You just got made fun of by a newbie.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> former Akutenshi member <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> Organizer of TRACS <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> member of the Trigger fan club <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />Trigger fears: <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/berelain.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> I'm aliena's jig-dancing partner <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> jealous? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /> If I'm here, consider yourself blessed by my presence <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-26 17:41:35
subject: <b>Two Rivers Upbringing</b>
body:
Perhaps part of the reason that Rand has difficulty healing is that it was always the women, or especially the Wisdom associated with healing.  Subconciously he feels he would be meddling in Women's Circle business, or would muck it up like a woolhead.<br />


created: 2002-07-29 21:11:08
subject: <b>what is impossible?</b>
body:
throughout the series discoveries are being made. there are comments everywhere.. forsaken can hardly believe the things aes sedai do like controlling weather that they thought was impossible, or when aviendha undid the gate way weave. where as in the age of legends they did things that aes sedai now believe impossible. I dont know if it can be defined by rules. maybe anything is possible if they stumble onto how to do it correctly. like an earlier post said wise ones commenting on all the arm moving which they didnt need to do, but aes sedai believed that they had to. it was part of the weave. when the aes sedai stumbled onto logain and his gang they tried to get out of eye sight because men &quot;believed&quot; they had to see and because they believed they had to see. Considering they dont know whats possible or impossible i doubt we can either.


created: 2002-08-24 18:14:34
subject: <b>forgetting one thing</b>
body:
I think the following might just disprove a theory.  everyone is forgetting something very important.  I dont think that Rand really got the sickness wilders get after their first channeling at Baerlon, that was just fatigue.  I dont know how Bela got her strength, but that can be any number of things.  If i remember correctly, on Rands way to Caemlyn with Mat, he is attacked by a darkfriend in Four Kings, and the assasin gets strucked by lightning.  Now, this may just be ta'varen work, but he gets extremely sick for only a little while afterwords, similar to wilders getting sick.  I may have missed something, and if so someone please correct me, but thats my 2cents.


created: 2002-09-12 19:02:10
subject: <b>This one is unbelievable!</b>
body:
I can't believe how long this one has been going.  I got so frustrated reading all these posts that I went to the freaking book.<br /><br /><b>Page 768. &quot;There is Neither Beginning Nor End&quot; - EotW</b><br /><br />Moiraine outlines to Rand her early suspicions that Rand could channel and mentions the coin bonding and how he resisted and shouldn't have been able to.  <i>&quot;Then there was Bela&quot;</i><br /><br />Rand - <i>&quot;Bela?&quot;</i><br /><br />Moiraine - <i>&quot;At Watch Hill, Bela had no need of me to cleanse her of tiredness; someone had already done it&quot;</i><br /><br />Who could that be???? Well, Moiraine goes on to say, <b>to Rand.</b> <i>&quot;I should have thought of who Bela carried.  With Trollocs on our heals, a Draghkar overhead, and a Halfman the Light alone knew where, how you must have feared that Egwene would be left behind.  You needed something more that you had ever needed anything before in your life, and you reached out to the one thing that could give it to you.  Saidin.&quot;</i><br /><br />To explain the plainly obvious that is not that obvious to everyone...<br /><br />Rand feared that his one love and wife to be (at the time) would be left behind to die a horrid death to shadowspawn.  So out of need Rand grabbed a hold of Saidin and cleansed Bela's tiredness.<br /><br />1) It was Rand not Egwene<br />2) Rand did not heal Bela, he cleansed her tiredness.  As we have read on many occasions, healing takes energy from within.  I know there is a special ancient way to heal with the power only.  But let&#8217;s face in EotW things are not that complicated, we have hardly heard of the Age of Legends let alone the wonders of it.<br />3) It did not require his touch as the touching only makes it easier and has nothing to do with Saidar and Saidin<br /><br />Where is Columbo when you need him?<br /><br />Case closed...I hope...<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />


created: 2002-09-15 22:42:01
subject: <b>I don't know if i agree or disagree</b>
body:
If we look at it, it could also have been Egwene. No she did not have wilders sickness after, and she has no control, but we never know. I guess maybe it could be Rand, and it is an interesting idea, but I don't think I could fully agree with this <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /> =


created: 2002-12-14 02:39:21
subject: <b>How did Rand help Bela</b>
body:
First of all he did something along the lines of what Moraine did for the other horsey's or else she wouldn't have commented on it.<br />   I think Rand did it instinctively. Jordan frequently mentions how Aes Sedai do weaves the way they were trained to do, but wise ones and windfinders do similar things using different weaves. Maybe Rand did something that a trained Aes Sedai could not do, because of the way she was trained.


created: 2002-12-15 04:16:21
subject: <b>Curiouser and curiouser...</b>
body:
Rand bonded Bela. Hehehe. J/K<br />Of course he cleansed her weariness.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rand.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bela.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">The lateness has come to the thrashing.<br /><br />Visit www.aww-mud.org and click Telnet.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-12-29 13:47:42
subject: <b>another way</b>
body:
If you remember, when Flinn Heals Rand, he doesn't actually touch him.  It says something about him &quot;weaving&quot; the air above him, but not actually touching him.  This is definitely a case of Saidin/Saidar differences or Aes Sedai being set in their ways.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Life is not tried it is merely survived if  you're standing outside the fire.&quot;<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> Kwestfall06 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-03 00:38:59
subject: <b>just a question bout the whole rand channeling thing</b>
body:
it says he gets cold to the bone and shivers or something<br /><br />does this not sound like what rand feels when a woman is channeling? <br /><br />well ive got a theory i want discussed. where can i stick it?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br />                                 matt<br />                              aka jango<br />                                     do or do not,<br />                                     there is no try</font><p></p>


created: 2003-06-16 03:16:52
subject: <b>To those who think Egwene did it</b>
body:
To those who think Egwene did it:<br /><br />Moiraine would have seen the glow of saidar around Egwene had she channeled into Bela, and/or she would have seen the flows. She didn't see or sense anything because Rand did it, and she can't sense saidin!


created: 2004-10-14 15:08:36
subject: <b>Everyone is wrong</b>
body:
OF course Rand in some way tried to help out Bela.... But he couldn't. He reached out to Saidin but it being his first time and all he had no clue what to do.  This was when Narg came out from behind a tree and shot them all with tranquilizer darts.  Then he marked his spot in the book and whisked her away for a two week vacation in the Bahamas, returning her to the book when she was rested.<br />Remember  narg can be used to explain anything.  Viva el way del Coconut!


created: 2007-03-31 21:16:46
subject: <b>Another possibility</b>
body:
When all the fighting was taking place in and from Rhuidean, didn't Asmodean channel a little bit of strength into rand once?  I seen to remember reading that, but can't recall exactly where.  They weren't standing next to each other either.  hmmmm....<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">nicci24  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shakefist.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/oh2.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smackhead.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2008-03-06 01:04:57
subject: <b>In many cases...</b>
body:
I've read a few fantasy books and in most of them it says that healing doesn't need physical contact but it helps for the healer to concentrate. But I believe that this wasn't healing.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-16 07:02:27
subject: <b>Nicely Done!</b>
body:
I like the idea that Cadsuane will teach them to trust the Aes Sedai, I always thought the laughter and tears thing was an easy explanation.<br /><br />I think I agree with pretty much everything you've said here! <br /><br />One thing that I thought of while reading your theory is this: If Rand is going to be heavily influenced by Lan, how is Lan going to be affected by Moiraine returning and what will be the knock-on effect on Rand?<br /><br />I think Moiraine's first meeting with Rand will be very interesting as we are frequently told that she is at the head of the list of names in his head. I reckon after his apology they will work together rather than arguing with each other.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Jimbo <br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> We come, brother. We hunt. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />&quot;But I don't want to go among mad people,&quot; Alice remarked.<br />&quot;Oh, you can't help that,&quot; said the Cat: &quot;we're all mad here.&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-16 08:07:33
subject: <b>Seems Reasonable</b>
body:
Sounds Reasonable,Especially the 'Tears &amp; Laughter' theory being a bit too easy. Just a thought :- Will it be Moiraine that softens Lans attitude? hasn't Lan already started to soften through him marriage to Nynaeve ?<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Toon Army:- The Creators choice<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/thom.gif" border="0" /> = Sir Bobby Robson IS the Creator<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/thom.gif" border="0" /> = <br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-16 08:28:17
subject: <b>can't think of a title</b>
body:
a quote you might find interesting / relevant: <blockquote>&quot;We are alike in many ways, you and I. There is a darkness in us. Darkness, pain, death. They radiate from us. If ever you love a woman, Rand, leave her and let her find another. It will be the best gift you can give her.&quot;</blockquote><br /><br /><br />just on the LAN bit, i think lan already has been 'saved.' i mean he even <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />'s now! He was around when he married nyneave imho


created: 2002-01-16 10:53:27
subject: <b>Bravo!</b>
body:
Not so much as how right you are, since I haven't decided, but it was thoughtful, provocative, well-considered and insightful.<br /><br />A couple of points (more as threads of thought you prompted in me):<br /><br />1. &quot;She will teach Rand and the Asha&#8217;man to trust and treat Aes Sedai like equals.&quot;  That may very well extend to women in general and not just Aes Sedai.  After all, it's Rand's over-protectiveness of women that tends to make him most hard and causes him the most trouble.<br /><br />2. There is something (obviously) very significant between Lan and Rand, and I think a profound statement was made in Far Madding, when Rand refused to let Lan fall.  Rand has proven to be extraordinarily ruthless in allowing companions to fall, even die, to pursue the greater goal.  This is the only instance I can think of where he simply refused to consider his role/fate/destiny/task ahead of another. <br /><br />&quot;When the moon turns green.&quot;<br /><br />We haven't seen the follow-up of that, but I'm sure there will be. Yes, I realize Lan and Rand are related, and whether either of them suspects or knows it isn't revealed yet, but in any event, Lan is essentially his father-figure...but not quite.  After all, Tam is that. Plus, Lan is more a friend.  Indeed, he is Rand's truest, best and closest friend.  Even moreso than Perrin or Mat.  With Perrin and Mat he has barriers and strife and things that cannot be discussed...but never with Lan.  In fact, he doesn't HAVE to discuss very much with Lan. Their understanding of one another is so profound that words are not necessary.<br /><br />This relationship is possibly my favorite of the series.


created: 2002-01-16 11:43:35
subject: <b>Not so sure about the Light's reward</b>
body:
I think your part about the Light's reward sound's a little bit too much like a fairytale to me.  In this series, I don't think there is a 'happily ever after' love.  Many characters may find love only to have it tragically removed at another part of the story.  And I notice that not all of the main characters have a love.  Cadsuane doesn't.  Verin doesn't.  Many good Aes Sedai either never marry or they remain celibate.  I think the Light must have another reward, perhaps a different kind of love, perhaps an inner-love and knowingness.  Something propels the characters to keep fighting the shadow, and I don't know why, because most of what we have seen in this series has been pretty pessimistic (especially for the borderlanders).  Would you want to live in a world where your living life was constantly in fear of trolloc raids, male channelers and the like? (Of course, this may be like our world, we may be constantly in fear of nuclear weapons, suicide bombers)<br /> I think that reward for the light may have something to do with both an inner-certainty, and with a blissful afterlife.  I think we may even get glimpses of this after-life when Moiraine returns.  I think that characters finding love is just great, and all the power to them for finding it, but this just not seem like a big enough incentive to keep fighting for the light.<br />      Finally, I loved the analogies between Lan and Rand.  This was my favorite part of your theory.  Interestingly, we see that Lan and Rand are bonded in some kind of way where they do not need to speak words to know.  Similiarly, Lan's only kin and Rand's uncle are bonded into Isam-Luc-Slayer.  Is this a coincidence by Jordan?  I think not.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ADA- AlannaDawn Anonymous-- helping wotmaniacs recovering from their AlanndaDawn Addictions in a dynamic new 12-step program.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-16 12:45:52
subject: <b>what about Tam?</b>
body:
Tam Tam Tam !!!!<br />he is the only other person that can influence him. even though he isnt his real father, he did raise Rand well, taught him values etc. and he's a blademaster plus a former commander of the elite Illian Companions. he will be back, and will play a vital role in the reeducation of Rand. this fits very well with Lan being his only other teacher, as theyre surely buddies from the past --- the flame and the void ? remember? they were both present 'where the battle was the hottest' in the aiel war. <br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Master of Swords<br />Composer of Metal<br />Slayer of Idiots<br />Drinker of 40s<br />Guardian of the Light<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-16 12:50:43
subject: <b>Pillow friends?</b>
body:
Maybe that is why RJ intoduced pillow-friends.  The Light's reward????  Sounds more rewarding to all of us men out there, if you catch my meaning. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Of course, you could then make the argument that a good woman surrounded by only other women MUST be gay!!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> AOBtD <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />It`s frustrating when you know all the answers, but nobody bothers to ask you the questions.<br /><br />Never be afraid to try something new. Remember, amateurs built the ark. Professionals built the Titanic.<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-16 13:06:30
subject: <b>Matrimony</b>
body:
I disagree with what you said about love.  IMHO, which is not so humble, the majority of Aes Sedai don't serve the Light, they serve themselves and the tower.  Besides, Cadsuane and Verin aren't really main characters to me.  I mean what do we really know about them?  And at this point, no one has had their love taken from them.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font face="old english text mt"><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />  Lord Avatar Darkstorm <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />  King of the Morning   <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />  Prince of the Day     <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />  He Who Rules the Night<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font> <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-16 13:56:45
subject: <b>Don't forget...</b>
body:
Don't forget the importance of characters that have been long gone. WHile Moraine is mentioned I think you have to remember how much Rand cared for his father. Tam may not be his REAL father but that is of little consequence. Tam raised him and loved him for 20 years and that doesn't go away just becuase some factual info has come up. Rand mainly has avoided the two rivers and Tam not to keep them safe but to keep himself safe from nostalgic feelings that he percieves to be weakness in his struggle to control events. I still vote that Rand's going to go home in the next book to learn Cadsuane's lesson. We'll find out.


created: 2002-01-16 17:47:32
subject: <b>Back to the point of Love</b>
body:
Avatar Darkstorm,<br /><br />     I agree with your points about Aes Sedai.  But I do not agree that love could be the creator's reward.  One main character who has had his love removed is Rand, at least in a past life. Lews Therin eliminated his whole family.  Main characters or not, there are probably many people in Rand's army who fight for the light, and yet they will find that either their wives have died, or they have left behind a widow by the last battle.  I have a thought, I don't know how valid, that the Creator has an infinite power and love.  Therefore the reward from the creator would be something that is more infinite and that cannot taken away as easily as a spouse.  This is getting into either Zen-stuff, or afterlife stuff.  I will stop now while I am ahead... or while I am behind.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ADA- AlannaDawn Anonymous-- helping wotmaniacs recovering from their AlanndaDawn Addictions in a dynamic new 12-step program.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-16 19:55:15
subject: <b>Tam al'Thor</b>
body:
I agree with everything but i also think that Tam will come into the teaching. He was his &quot;father&quot; and raised Rand to be a good man. But since being away Rand has gotten &quot;hard&quot;. This means Tam will help him because he is a blademaster, was in the Aiel war and I think the whole thing with the Two Rivers men that came out of Two Rivers will somehow make a connection to Rand and Tam so they can get back together and Tam will remind Rand of the person that he is.


created: 2002-01-16 20:11:43
subject: <b>A few things</b>
body:
1. Rand and Lan are related? How so? (Not to the theory writer)<br /><br />2. &quot;Moiraine will at some point have to come back to life. When she does, she will most likely try to find Rand again. It is also my belief that being dead will have changed Moiraine to a more human character.&quot;<br /><br />You're assumption that Moiraine has died seems a bit dodgy to me, there have been many valid points put forward for Moiraine not having died.<br /><br />3. &quot;Both have lost the reason to live on.&quot;<br /><br />Since when did Rand lose any reason to live on? He's prepared for death, he expects to die, but he doesn't want to. He's asked the finn how he can survive, we've seen him ponder it himself, even question if he deserves to live if he can, all these things show that Rand does want to survive. He has at least 3 important reasons to live on, Elayne, Aviendha and Min.<br /><br />You could of just say Rand and Lan both have darkness in them rather than they both have no reason to live on, it won't change the theory.<br /><br />4. &quot;The Aes Sedai with Egwene and Egwene herself are furious with Rand because they think he is forcing Aes Sedai to serve him under oath.&quot;<br /><br />He is. He forced them to take the oath or they'd have ended up as prisoners in the Aiel camp. As Taim said (and I'm paraphrasing): &quot;Kneel, or you will be knelt.&quot;<br /><br />5. &quot;The Asha&#8217;man are very wary of Aes Sedai since they have been attacked by them&quot;<br /><br />Perhaps it's just me but the Asha'man have never seemed wary of Aes Sedai to me. They're not bothered by the idea of going up against the Forsaken (as mentioned when Rand tells a few of them that they're going to help him kill Sammael), so Aes Sedai shouldn't bother them.<br /><br />Is your main theory on what Cadsuane will teach the Asha'man (sorry, it wasn't very clear to me) that Aes Sedai are equal to them not below them? That doesn't seem like something that would bother the Asha'man that much, it seems to me that the Aes Sedai would be a lot more annoyed by that revelation.


created: 2002-01-17 09:20:16
subject: <b>Relationship between Rand and Lan?</b>
body:
I can't remember clearly from the books but are Rand and Lan actually related through Luc/Isam? I think I remember reading that Rand is related to Luc and that either Luc/Isam look almost identical to Lan. Is there actually a relationship here or just a coincidence?<br /><br />Whether they're family or not I think its clear that Rand and Lan have a very important relationship to the both of them.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Jimbo <br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> We come, brother. We hunt. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />&quot;But I don't want to go among mad people,&quot; Alice remarked.<br />&quot;Oh, you can't help that,&quot; said the Cat: &quot;we're all mad here.&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-17 10:23:12
subject: <b>Lan/Rand</b>
body:
Ugh...I've been trying to remember why I believe this (and have always accepted it as fact for the past few years), but I may have to dig through all the books, which is not something I have time for these days.<br /><br />I think the Luc/Isam thing WAS the issue.  Lan may be related more by marriage than blood.  Can anyone remember off-hand the set-up of his traitorous step-mother or what-not?


created: 2002-01-17 10:32:26
subject: <b>Rand/Janduin/Tigraine/Shaiel/Isam?</b>
body:
Okay, here's the thread (partly taken from the Encyclopedia section here).<br /><br />&quot;He (Janduin, Rand's father) was killed when he refused to raise his spear against a man he claimed looked like his lost Shaiel&quot;   (heh, who he claimed this to after he was killed is a puzzler! *chuckle<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/myrddraal.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />That would be Isam and Tigraine (Rand's mother).  Would that make Isam Rand's uncle?<br /><br />Now, where my memory breaks down is the -precise- details of the Isam/Malkier story.  Vaguely I recall that Isam was...step-brother to Lan? And where did the relation with Shaiel/Tigraine come in?  That's where the key of Lan and Rand being related lies.<br /><br />Could someone fill in the blanks and help prove/disprove this? Thanks!


created: 2002-01-17 11:32:25
subject: <b>I checked it myself</b>
body:
Luc was (and is) Tigraine's (Rand's mother's) brother, therefore Rand's uncle. Isam is Lan's brother. Now in some weird twisted way you could say that the mixing into Slayer means that Lan and Rand are related (in a similar way to marriage which means you can be related to your wife's mother), but not by blood. It all depends upon whether you count the merging as similar to what marriage does...and I don't.


created: 2002-01-17 11:34:53
subject: <b>Isam/Luc connection</b>
body:
This is the connection:<br /><br />While I don't have my books in front of me, I remember the basic outline.  When Lan's evil aunt betrayed malkier, she ran into the blight with Isam, her son and Lan's first cousin, subsequently disappearing.  Tigraine was Rand's mother, and was told by the Amyrlin? to go into the waste and become a maiden.  Luc, Tigraine's brother, was told to go into the blight.  I don't even know if what happened afterwards has been told to us, but it is clear that Luc was combined with Isam to form slayer.  Because Luc is the facade that Slayer wears in the real world (we have seen this when in WH, Slayer murders the two people in Far Madding, and is Luc until he returns to the Dream World).  Therefore, Janduin came into contact with Luc, who looked like his long lost wife.  Rand's father could raise his spear to a man that looked like Rand's mother, so Luc killed him.  I don't think that there is any further concrete relationship between Luc/Isam and Rand and Lan, besides what we already know:<br />Isam is Lan's cousin, i believe.<br />Luc is Rand's Uncle.<br />Isam's mother is responsible for Malkier.<br />Luc as slayer is responsible for killing Rand's father (the real one).<br /><br />Now here is the real question, and i don't know if it has even been asked.  The Aes Sedai (again, i think it was the same woman that told Moiraine and Siuan what to do, though I can't remember her name) was responsible for telling Luc to go into the blight.  Why?  What further purpose has that served?  All we have seen as a result is the formation of Slayer, which so far is obviously not the best thing that has happened for the good side.  So, why tell Luc to go into the blight?  What future impact will this have?<br /><br />My theory is that it must have to do with either a). Rands victory at the last battle, or b). Fulfillment of some prophesy.  So, Slayer is going to fulfill some future role in Rand's development, one way or another, and it won't have anything to do with just being the shadow's number one assassin.  I think we should think bigger than that.  Just like Fain wasn't just the dark one's hound, he became more.  Slayer can be said to be comparable.  Remember Robert Jordan's sense of balance.  While quite a few plots created by the good side have actually been shown to benefit the shadow, we must expect the opposite to be true.


created: 2002-01-17 11:50:03
subject: <b>Ah...Thanks.</b>
body:
Excellent! Thanks for the info.  My assumption established some number of books ago hinged on Isam being Luc.  I didn't come back to it after the Luc/Isam thing as Slayer was presented.<br /><br />But now...this was brought up in the LTT/Rand and Luc/Isam soul connections.<br /><br />Is Isam related to Luc, by more than the Slayer meld? For instance, Rand is related to Lews Therin because, well, he IS Lews Therin, just reborn.  Is that the same between Isam and Luc? Perhaps helped by (in the immortal words of Zaphod Beeblebrox the First) an accident with a time machine and a contraceptive?<br /><br />We only know for sure of two such personality melds:  LTT/Rand, and Isam/Luc.  We only know a lot of info about one of them (the first).  If Isam/Luc are similar at all, then there -is- a blood connection (as in maybe they're the same entity).  But if they are not, than there is no direct blood relation between Rand and Lan. <br /><br />and btw, it was Gitara Moroso, who had the Foretelling, who sent Tigraine into the Blight (and Suian and Moiraine on their respective paths, indirectly, since they were attending her when Rand was born an she screamed out the prophecy, &quot;He burns! He burns!...&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />.<br /><br />Now, for another curveball, Rand IS related to Moiraine, at least to some distant cousin extent. :-)  And also closer by marriage.  She was niece of Lamen.  This also makes her Galad's direct aunt (or grand-aunt). <br /><br />Those wacky Andorans!!!  More inbreeding than a backwoods Ozarks family at a reunion picnic!!!


created: 2002-01-17 12:45:40
subject: <b>Rand and Moiraine are not related...</b>
body:
...Galad and Moiraine are....obviously, he's a Damodred....Rand is not, he is the product of Galad's mother, Tigraine, and her second husband, Janduin...thus Moiraine being the cousin of Tigraine's first husband is clearly not related at all to Rand.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Da Mook<br /><br /><br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/220.gif" /><br /><br /><br /><i>&quot;You're not cute, you're a silver-fox sex god is what you are.&quot;  LiterateDog to me, of course<br /><br />&quot;snoop elsewhere&quot; -Pevara</i> <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-17 13:05:19
subject: <b>Cairhien/Caemlyn Inter-marriage</b>
body:
They ARE effectively all related, as Rand found out (though he was only focusing on Elayne) when he was digging into info about Tigraine.   Very distanct, perhaps, but maybe not as much as speculated.  House Damodred and Trakand probably are closer than most houses, since they both were higher up on the succession group.


created: 2002-01-17 14:47:14
subject: <b>House Trakand</b>
body:
Rand is not related to Trakand.  Tigraine, his mother, was the Daughter-Heir and daughter of Modrellein whose death caused the Succession.  Trakand did not come to power until after Tigraine left.


created: 2002-01-17 15:22:31
subject: <b>*sigh*</b>
body:
When Rand was digging for info on Tigraine and Elayne, the simpering brunette with whom he was speaking said that ALL the houses are related.  Rand was horrified and sickened, but she laughed and assured him (while misunderstanding him) that the ties are distand enough and don't get in the way of marriage.<br /><br />Futhermore, Tigraine married into House Damodred -- Moiraine's House. In fact, married Tarengil, Morgase's first cousin. That effectively makes Rand Moiraine's Step-Nephew. Or, just straight nephew.  Or third cousin by marriage. I'm not sure. One of those.  <br /><br />In any event, Moiraine is a very distant relative by blood, and a pretty close relative by marriage, to Rand al' Thor, the Dragon Reborn, the Coramoor, the Car'a'carn.<br /><br />And if Isam/Luc turns out to be true (big, but intriguing 'if') , then he's also related closely to the soon-to-be-refounded Kingdom of Malkier.  And he currently IS the King of Illian and the High Lord of Tear (for all practical purposes).  Not to mention the Chief of Chiefs for the Aiel. <br /><br />Aside from being a powerful agent of prophecy, he is also likely the 'most royal' person on the continent.  And that's not even counting any titles that Lews Therin could claim.


created: 2002-01-17 19:17:05
subject: <b>I don't...</b>
body:
..think you can count LTT and Rand as being related. The souls are connected, but not related (as they are one and the same), but we've not seen any indication that physically Rand is connected to Lews Therin.<br /><br />As for other relations...if you go back far enough I wouldn't be surprised to find that I'm related to at least half of the wotmania members. No doubt somehow Rand and Lan are related, but it's nothing that will have a baring on the story.<br /><br />Why Gitara sent Luc to the Blight is an interesting question. I'm certainly hoping that it's to fullfil some foretelling she had, but it might simply be that if he didn't go, something else (Tigraine's leaving?) wouldn't have happened.


created: 2002-01-18 12:04:57
subject: <b>Stop Being Obtuse</b>
body:
Y'know, saying that everyone, if you go back far enough, is related is being deliberately misleading.<br /><br />It's a far different matter in politics (or in this case Royal Houses).  They marry into each other, for truce, power or just strengthening ties.  There's a very good chance that the blood ties between Damodred and Trakand need only one or two generations to establish it. That's speculation, but entirely reasonable speculation between two of the most major houses of a powerful country. (Hmm...wasn't it George Bush Sr. who was distantly related to 64 different royal houses of Europe?)<br /><br />In fact, this is supported by Lamen wanting the two to unite so they could politically rule Cairhien and Caemlyn.<br /><br />Let's look at your real world example about relation.  If any of you have an aunt or uncle (one of your parents' siblings), and they marry someone, that person is now your aunt and uncle, and a very close family tie -- despite the fact there is absolutely no related blood flowing in their veins.<br /><br />Now let's look at Moiraine.  It is obvious she was high up on the succession ladder for Cairhien.  Though not a viable candidate, they wouldn't have had to go far to get to her.  She was Lamen's niece, and so far we only have heard of Taringail as a potential heir.  This is a little like the Speaker of the House being next in line after the Vice President for the United States in event of emergency.  Never has happened, but the Speaker is still very close nonetheless.<br /><br />My point is, is that Rand has -very- few people who are within two steps of his direct lineage.  The only ones we DO know about are Galad and Moiraine.  Period. And since I know someone will mock and ask, I'll lay it out:<br /><br />Tigraine is his mother and part of direct lineage.  One step from her is Taringail, her second husband. And one step from Taringail is Moiraine, his first cousin. <br /><br />That's a very potent tie.  Heck, think of when William of Orange came over to rule England.  The blood tie was FAR more diluted than this.  I think it took them a year or so just to trace lineages. Thom actually alluded to this when he and Moiraine were talking. <br /><br />What I'M wondering is if Thom is actually Elayne's real father. The timing would be about right, and his zealous concern would certainly be in line with someone who was a parent rather than just someone who watched the daughter of the woman he's having an affair with grow up.<br /><br />Which, if he marries Moiraine as a lot of people like to think...will make him more directly related to Rand (and to stave off more hysterics, by MORE directly I mean as opposed to being father-in-law, assuming Rand marries Elayne and my speculation about his being Elayne's father is right). <br /><br />All of this certainly broadens the Foretelling by Elaida that &quot;The Royal House of Andor stands at the center&quot;, now doesn't it?


created: 2002-01-18 12:17:01
subject: <b>nice, but...er two things</b>
body:
Verin does not fit into your reward-theory. Neither do many of the other characters.<br />and secondly: where on earth did you get the idea that Moiraine has been dead?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> <font color="a52a2a">Magnus Alexander corpore parvus erat </font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <font color="b8860b">Dissenting voice of wotmania</font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <br /><font color="6495ed">Frightfully stubborn pacifist</font> <br /><br /><i><font color="669900"> Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent</font></i></font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-18 12:43:18
subject: <b>I don't...</b>
body:
...have a problem with your theory that Rand and Moiraine are related, I think you're right, it's Lan and Rand that I was referring to or Luc and Isam, it's the same 2 families in either case. I get the impression that Borderland Royal families are likely to marry each other, rather than marrying &quot;soft&quot; southerners. It's not like the Borderlands war with other countries either, so no disputes have to be solved with marriage (as Cairhien and Andor's fighting was ended by Taringail's marriage to Tigraine).<br /><br />So like I said, Rand and Lan may be related, but very distantly, much more so than Rand and Moiriane.


created: 2002-01-18 16:08:20
subject: <b>Moiraine being Dead?</b>
body:
Several ways:<br /><br />Lanfear was dead, at least at some point, after falling through the terangreal (this is not definitive proof)<br /><br />Moiraine's bonding of Lan was passed to Merlille when she fell through.  She could not be certain of the events on the docks, so would've had to put forth a more solid contingency.<br /><br />Lan's reaction:  Not only was his bond passed but he also felt the grief and madness of a broken bond -- even when he had a bond without 'interruption'. <br /><br />Simply going into a terangreal as she did before, such as the portal/arches was not sufficient to cause that to prompt that sense of absence.<br /><br />There's a lot of strong circumstantial evidence to point to Moiraine's dead, since the shared Bond had definitive severing.


created: 2002-01-18 16:47:06
subject: <b>But...</b>
body:
...the passage to that world was destroyed. The bond may well work for wherever the other person is in the world, but in another world that you can't get to...well, it could well break the bond.<br /><br />There are certainly reasons to beleve she is dead, but it's when people treat it as fact that annoys me.


created: 2002-01-18 17:20:11
subject: <b>A Few Points</b>
body:
Of course, everyone on earth is related. And you may be surprised to learn just how closely. Studies of been done on human genealogy that show that no one is more distantly related than a 64th cousin. This means that a pure bred dude in Africa roaming the plains of the Sarengeti is the 64th cousin to a purebred guy in China.<br /><br />Also, something about the bond: all things that exist in space time can only stretch so thin. You'll notice that Rand's traveling even a mere few hundred miles away from Alanna greatly reduces Alanna's presence in his head. In effect, the link has been thinned. We have never seen what would happen if that link were stretched to another universe, galaxy, or even the next planet! The distance the bond had to cover after the route through the doorframe disapeared could have been too great for the bond and it snapped.<br /><br />So that's my POV.


created: 2002-01-19 01:07:03
subject: <b>755 votes???</b>
body:
IS THIS POSSIBLE?  I guess so, but not for a theory that is so recent.  Therefore, either there was an error or somebody has no life and decided to vote against our theorist several hundred times -which seems likely considering the majority of the response was good to this theory.  I certainly like it, or most of it.  <br /><br />Yeah, bunch of freakin' inbred Westlanders...<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" />  &quot;Until Nynaeve quits yankin' that braid,<br />     May you find water and shade.&quot;  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" />  Vote Logain for M'Hael


