# w_comment

created: 2003-07-21 23:08:29
subject: <b>...</b>
body:
Etzel, I believe the good Elder was making an example, unless I'm mistaken. <br /><br />Am I? *g* And if I am mistaken, and you *weren't* making an examle, wouldn't seekers be capitalized if it referred to the Seanchan? And as Etzel said, why would they bring it up?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Lissa M. Rose<br /><br />&quot;Bring out your dead!&quot;<br /><br />&quot;You don't frighten us, English pig-dog! Go and boil your bottoms, son of a silly person. I blow my nose on you, so-called Arthur-king, you and your silly English kiii-niggits!&quot;<br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-22 01:48:40
subject: <b>quite the stir!</b>
body:
174 postings! congrats!!!!! damn good theory, well thought out. i could see Rhurark(sp?) knowing about it and going to use it (Mayene's relationship with the aiel). it could also be Lord Darlin (not sure if he left yet? don't got my books here). but knowing thom's connection to morraine and hers to the finn, maybe him. even though he walks with a limp, he's damn sly and might've taken the pain to appear with no limp. or maybe the limp is a  decoy. i could REALLY see Thom puttin a false front out there for the world knowing what's coming. u've given me too much to think on to type. keep it up!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Fortune rides like the sun on high<br />with the fox that makes the ravens fly.<br />Luck his soul, the lightning his eye,<br />He snatches the moons from out the sky.&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-24 11:30:12
subject: <b>Hmmm... I'm not so sure...</b>
body:
I think it's a good post overall, but there may be the chance that you're all just over reacting??<br /><br />There is no actual proof that anyone was in there before Mat! As has been said previously - the stone's servants would keep the stairs and corridor freshly swept!!<br /><br />It's also entirely possible that the finn's language &quot;the seekers come again&quot; etc, in the fashion that they use the plural could be the royal 'we' etc. <br /><br /><br /><br />To elobarate - when the Mayenne and Tear authorities were using the doorway regularly, they would have been known collectively as 'seekers' as a multiple number would go through to seek answers. <br /><br />Is it not possible that the Finns do not associate themselves with current day nations and houses. Mat would simply be a 'seeker'! <br /><br />Of course, the Finns would not turn round, in all the elaborate, ceremonial speech and say 'the seeker comes again' as that would imply Mat would be an individual, and could visit again, which we know he cannot!<br /><br />Therefore, the term 'the seekers' does not imply that someone came in before Mat, but simply that after the lengthy time in which the doorway has remained dormant in the cellar in Tear, someone has used it - that first someone being Mat!<br /><br /><br />Also, as far as RJ's reaction to the question posed to him, it is possible that the elusive answer may have been MEANT to waylay anyone, and to maintain the secrecy and mystery that appears so often in his books... Is Jordan honestly going to tell any old someone something that takes away the charm of the books? I don't think so! Sorry


created: 2003-10-25 14:20:48
subject: <b>Good one <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /></b>
body:
I agree that there were several visitors. But the &quot;mournful bell&quot; could also be someone coming. Mournful could just be a discription of Mat's feelings when he stands there waiting and hearing the distant bells sounding of.I don't see the point of a bell signaling for leaving.I think there was one more visitor.<br />If Lan was in there I think Moiraine followed him, and not the opposite.(If he went in would Nynaeve also follow him?)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> It's time to toss the dice.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-10-25 15:11:31
subject: <b>Also...</b>
body:
...just to explain Nynaeve.She is always the most forward,perhaps because she can't admit that she has fears.<br />Also Moiraine telling her not to go in,would be like a red blanket for her.It would only make her more likely to do it.Maybe she did something when she was in there.She seems to have some skill in manipulating *angreals.Her and Rand in there at the same time refusing to obey the rules would definetly make the &quot;snakes&quot; restless.Maybe she and Lan stayed in there together.<br /><br />The reason that the bond broke when the portal was destroyed,is that the whole thing was planed by Moiraine, for some reason.She pre-arranged for the bond to be passed on to Nynaeve.Maybe she knew that for someone, the price for getting wishes would be too high.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> It's time to toss the dice.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-12-07 22:54:25
subject: <b>Nice idea, but I don't think that it holds water</b>
body:
What clenches it for me: The bells. First of all, notice that not only did the bell ring twice after Mat entered and then rung mournfully (for Green Gaidin's theory 2 people entering and one leaving), but it rang twice more when he was being rushed out. So, according to Green Gaidin's theory, that means that four people entered after Mat did, and one left. That would leave two more people inside after Rand and Moiraine left. If so, why didn't the Aelfinn kick <i>them</i> out? If you read closely, the first two bells were rung after the Aelfinn answered Mat's first two questions (once per question). The third (the mournfull one) rang after they answered his third and final question (mournfull because he will be leaving now I suppose). Then the next two would have been for Rand or Moiraine's questions. But Mat left before they were finished asking so he only heard two rings and as neither was the third ring for someone's final question they weren't mournful rings. Off that alone, I think that we can disprove Green Gaidin's theory. But that does not make it impossible for someone else to have entered the door at another time (though I'd be surprised personally). For that matter, if Thom has never been through it (and we have seen nothing to show that he had) it could help when he helps get Moiraine out Finnland, though I expect that all such attempts will revolve around the Tower of Ghenji. But we don't really know.<br /><br />Also (just to be thorough) there were the marks of multiple pairs of feet in the room prior to him.<br /><br /><i>&quot;Footprints crisscrossed the floor, some of them from boots, but no doubt they [Egwene, Elayne, and Nyneave] had had men to shift the heavier items about for them.&quot;</i> (Chapter 15, <i>Into the Doorway</i>, TSR - p.248, paperback)<br /><br />Obviously there had been many pairs of feet in there before him. They &quot;crisscrossed&quot; the floor, so obviously had been wandering. Moreover, Mat noticed no footprints leading specifically to the door. Of course that proves nothing. But it shows that quite a few people had been there prior to Mat's arrival. So that doesn't really show anything except that at least one woman (the footprints that weren't boot) and at least one man (the boots) were there before him (though probably several of both). It could easily be exactly what Mat thought - the girls with men as helpers for the heavy things (after all they weren't about to channel in there. As you may recall, Elayne said that she'd fallen three times when she'd dropped her lantern because she didn't want to channel in there (chapter=<i>Doorways</i>).<br /><br />Next, Mat's wanting to whisper means little. I, for one, can easily imagine wanting to whisper in the dark confines of the bottom of a fortress - especially when it's full of ter'angreal and such. I suppose that it could be RJ saying something, but I'd be surprised. One is not usually inclined to speak loudly in a dark room. Regardless, his whispering neither proves or disproves anything.<br /><br />Next, the question of plurality. The seeker<b>s</b> and <b>they</b>. The Aelfinn could easily be talking of a group of people (the seekers/questioners) as a whole and not specific people coming now. <i>They</i> (of which Mat Cauthon is the first in sometime) are coming again. It could have been the Two Rivers people coming again (assuming of course that they'd been there before) and Mat's the only one that's there yet. He could very well be the beginning of a group (though a group of &quot;seekers&quot; and not Two Rivers folk obviously). For that matter, for all we know they know when people are coming (though I doubt it) and <b>they</b> are Mat, Rand, and Moiraine. It seems perfectly possible to me (actually likely) for the Aelfinn to be speaking of <b>they</b> with only Mat being there as he <i>is</i> only the next in a long line of seekers/questioners.<br /><br />So, overall I think that the evidence points to things being exactly as they seem. But as RJ said, we'll just have to RAFO.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Kalessin</font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-28 22:20:21
subject: <b>PADAN</b>
body:
Fain followed Rand into the Doorway<br /><br />Note shadow questions are not dangerous, it is just asking from the lanfin that is. It is obvious to us now that the lanfin gives you the opposite of what you ask for. Case in point Mat, everything the Lanfin gave him allowed him to meat and drew the attention of Tuon. When he asked NOT to marry her.<br /><br />Folks what we got here is the Alfin being a three questions oracle and the Lanfin being a melevolent genie. Think about it, it makes sense.


created: 2004-02-07 17:08:08
subject: <b>nice theory</b>
body:
You have some good ideas, but one some accounts you are slightly mistaken. will post a counter-theory soon to show you what i mean.<br /><br />i voted yes by the way so nice job, and way to go<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> &quot;I'm the D.O.&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /> &quot;No I am&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rand.gif" border="0" /> &quot;KILL THEM!&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /> &quot;You can't possibly win!&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" />*smirks* &quot;Ya wanna make a bet???&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perrin.gif" border="0" /> *mutters* &quot;stupid axe&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/avi.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/min.gif" border="0" /> &quot;YOU CAN DO IT!&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2004-02-07 17:25:46
subject: <b>Rands Questions in the doorway</b>
body:
For sure we know two of rands question. the first one was &quot;what must i do too live?&quot; and teh answer is &quot;If you would live, you must die.&quot; The second one that we can varify is: &quot;What must i do to clean Saidin?&quot; and the answer is not told to us although we are told that they told him something like this &quot;only through high principles both moral and philosophocal&quot; (i'm not sure if i got that pseudo-reply correct but it is close if not) the third question is probably what he must do, since before then he had no idea whatsoever of going to Rhuidean until then. or, it could have had something to do with how to catch asmodean or some such, although i am more inclined to believe that he figured that one out on his own due to lanfears loose tongue when talking to him.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> &quot;I'm the D.O.&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /> &quot;No I am&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rand.gif" border="0" /> &quot;KILL THEM!&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /> &quot;You can't possibly win!&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" />*smirks* &quot;Ya wanna make a bet???&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perrin.gif" border="0" /> *mutters* &quot;stupid axe&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/avi.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/min.gif" border="0" /> &quot;YOU CAN DO IT!&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2004-05-28 03:36:43
subject: <b>what about slayer?</b>
body:
Slayer could have been one of those bells.  Isn't it TSR where he goes into the ToG?<br /><br />Who says that the bells only come from the doorway?<br /><br />


created: 2004-07-05 14:19:12
subject: <b>possibly...</b>
body:
i can understand the multiple bell aspect, but i think that the finn saying 'THEY come again' and 'the questionerS' is merely a collective term for the human race, and is not refering to a second person in the room, although the rest of your theory is very substancial and leads me to believe you  are right despite the first piece of evidence...<br /><br />nice one<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> Vaguely Remembered <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-08-05 16:47:01
subject: <b>Lan following Moiraine</b>
body:
One reason Lan would have followed Moiraine would be that when she entered the Ter'Angreal,  the Warder bond was broken for the duration of her visit. He might have thought that she was dead, and gone to avenge her.<br /><br />Of course this theory is down the drain if Moiraine had already made the decision to pass on Lan's bond at the moment of her death.


created: 2004-08-22 21:48:24
subject: <b>one word</b>
body:
fanclothe, it could make the user invisible to sneak past mat into the door way, yet mat would have the feel of sum1 being there<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /> Carai an Calhar! Dovie'andi se tovya sagain! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Loth<br />~~M'hael de Shen al Calhar~~<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-10-29 09:41:46
subject: <b>Fantastic</b>
body:
I too havent seen an original theory, or one this well thought out in a loooong time<br /><br />That is all..<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /> Damael <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /><br /><i>&quot;Women love us for our defects. If we have enough of them, they will forgive us everything, even our gigantic intellects&quot;.</i> - Oscar Wilde</font><p></p>


created: 2004-12-24 09:11:36
subject: <b>actually dude..........</b>
body:
&quot;&quot;Order of Entry<br />Submitted by Sir_Lancelittle     on 6/30/2003 8:46:55 PM  <br />I had always assumed that Mat was the last of the three to enter. I assumed this because all three came out at about the same time, yet Mat would have stayed in for less time. (Yes I realize time might move differently, but I assumed my assumption would still be right  ). Moiraine and Rand required an interpreter (and since things have to be translated both ways it easily doubles the required length of any conversation). Mat also asked and received his questions quickly, the others seemed to have received more complete/longer answers and were not hurried out before their answer could have been finished.<br /><br />Good theory though, I can't decide whether I agree or not. The thing is, why? Why would RJ choose to not tell us that others had gone through. what information might he be hiding that would be important? &quot;&quot;<br /> <br /><br />In reply to that, Sir Lance_Little, moiraine actually didnt need a translater, speaking and understanding the &quot;old tongue so well that she was excused lessons in it&quot; (new spring, cant remember what page. near the start)<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Surprising what you can dig out of books if you read long enough, isn't it?&quot; -- Rand Al'Thor<br /><br />&quot;I of course have zero evidence for this, but since when has that stopped any of us?&quot; -- David Wren-Hardin <br /><br />Oh, transatlantic Love!<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-03-23 20:45:23
subject: <b>It isnt Rurac</b>
body:
Aiel wear soft working boots, similar to those the Daishan wore, the other cannot have been Rurac or Mat would have mentioned the soft shoe prints, instead of BOOT prints, which would have grooves.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">The Wotmaniac currntly known as &quot;Taint Bearer&quot;<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <i>If you ever catch on fire, try to avoid looking in a mirror, because I bet that will really throw you into a panic.</i> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Came in 13th place in the Wotmania Hunt 2005 with 3790 points!<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-03-28 03:59:42
subject: <b>a question?</b>
body:
Who is Taimendred? I have read all the books 10 times and I have not seen that name once. ?????????????


created: 2006-01-05 18:49:08
subject: <b>Why not one of the male Forsaken</b>
body:
How would the finn even know how someone was a darkfriend/ I don't think they could even tell. Lanfear didn't come out but maybe since the doorways were created or at least in the AoL so why couldn't she have been in the AoL. So then she would have gone in twice and then she was punished.Then one of the other Forsaken could have got in and recived answers. That would explain the boots as they'd probably wear boots. And the person who came after Moiraine could have been Lanfear. Lanfear has motives such as stalking Rand and would probably also have questions.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shakefist.gif" border="0" /> Faile haters...<br />Paranoia is not a sickness, it's being smart enough to know that everyone IS out to get you. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /> <br /><font color="orange">Go </font> <font color="blue"> Broncos</font> <font color="orange">!!!!!!</font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2007-06-12 01:49:12
subject: <b>Holy crap.</b>
body:
I haven't checked this relic in 4 years! Neat to see that it's still the Comments champ! Once upon a time that meant something.<br /><br />Ah back in the day when WoT was what I thought about <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />To anyone who may read this: hit me with a NB saying you read the theory. I'm just curious as to how much these old theories get read/re-read. Thanks <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2008-04-18 15:20:58
subject: <b>WOW</b>
body:
I wouldnt discount darkfrinds so quickly, other then that WOW I never thought berlaine would want to stick to perrin just to piss off his wife, I mean really, I think there is some reason why she wants to be near him...maybe she got an answer like if you want power stick by him...then again that might be what shes thinking, hes tavern and friends with the dragon reborn.<br /><br />in either case great theory, and great sub thoery about berlaine


created: 2008-05-27 11:02:58
subject: <b>Another point</b>
body:
&#8220;If you do not go to Rhuidean,&#8221; the woman on the right said, &#8220;you will die.&#8221;<br />The bell tolled again, louder this time; Mat felt its tremor through his boots. The looks the three shared were plainly anxious. He opened his mouth, but they were only concerned with each other.<br />&#8220;The strain,&#8221; one of the women said hurriedly. &#8220;It is too great.&#8221;<br />&#8220;The savor of him,&#8221; the other woman said on her heels. &#8220;It has been so very long.&#8221;<br />Before she was done the man spoke. &#8220;The strain is too great. Too great. Ask. Ask!&#8221;<br /><br />&quot;the savor of him&quot;  now this is interesting...it could be rand because rand saves him from the noose around his neck, or the bf event when he dies and then not or the other numerous times rand helps him.<br /><br />  Or it could be Tom because there going to rescue Moraine or could have been Moraine but in either case I believe its the connection of mat and the bound and naked in Finnland area when they rescue moraine


created: 2008-10-03 10:42:22
subject: <b>I'm thinking...</b>
body:
That Lan was first and Berelain second. Reason being is that we know that there were boot prints. that fits perfectly with Lan, also because he would insist on going through before Moiraine. Then we have another visitor who's prints we don't see. That could be Berelain easily. It could also be another of any number of characters which would then be a huge RAFO per RJ's answer to your question.<br /><br />Also when Rand entered and they talk about the strain being to great and that it has been so long I believe they are referring to the Dragon along with Rand being the strongest Ta'veren. <br /><br />It makes more sense for them to say it's been so long because Mat is there first. Unless their perception of time is radically skewed. It makes sense that they haven't seen a Dragon in quite some time. Pile that on top of two ta'veren being in their realm at the same time, it becomes too much for them to handle. <br /><br />Thoughts?


created: 2003-07-08 18:50:27
subject: <b>I love being first...</b>
body:
This theory is a moderately well-reasoned argument that all the evidence supporting Moiraine's return is circumstantial.  Which is true.  But, because all the evidence is circumstantial does not mean the event will not come to pass.<br /><br />The only strong argument here is the fact that it hasn't happened yet.  But if you consider the sheer number of things that we've been speculating about since early in the series that have still yet to come about... severed hand... red on black... and that events which now *are* beginning to happen were often planted five or more books ago... daughter of the nine moons, for instance... then the argument loses its strength.<br /><br />Jordan may decide not to bring her back... but he definitely could.


created: 2003-07-08 18:51:04
subject: <b>Good thoughts, but not convinced</b>
body:
In your conclusion, you imply that RJ might not bring Moiraine back in order to surprise the 95% expecting her return. You also claim that, after being accused of plagiarism on Tolkien, he's trying to avoid Moiraine/Gandalf parallels. He planned out the entire plotline before he sat down to write TEOTW, so I doubt he's changed it for those reasons. If RJ originally gave Moiraine a part at Tarmon Gaidin, you can bet she'll be there.<br /><br />I for one find all the references to Moiraine's return to be fairly clear-cut. However, I can see RJ playing a trick on us by letting her return be one of those plotlines left to be resolved after the series has ended. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perplexed.gif" border="0" />


created: 2003-07-08 18:52:20
subject: <b>Good Try</b>
body:
You present good evidence for your argument but you did not convince me.  Honestly, I hope she does not come back but I think there is too much evidence for her return.  This is show by the amount of evidence that you have refute to prove your case.  You do a good job with refuting some of it but after a while quantity becomes quality in a book series like this (you can disagree with this statement, I would if I were in your shoes).  Many times, Jordan has beat us over the head with forshadowing and I believe that this is another case.  Not to mention how the Tower of Genji(sp) has been around since TEOTW and has not yet been brought into play.  Yet, I hope your right because it would make for a more interesting conclusion since, as you pointed out, most WOT readers believe she is coming back.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Front Man for the MH club</font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-08 18:54:34
subject: <b>And if she came back, what then?</b>
body:
Zeratul, I agree with some of your logic, and not with other parts. I've always thought it more likely than not that she will be brought back. Partly this is through parallel with Lanfear/Cyndane, but largely because I think Jordan DOES continue to make parallels with LOTR. For evidence see the &quot;Moiraine is really Gandalf&quot; theory (link below) - while this is humorous, it does make some good points, and I have no great desire to write a book adding to them.<br /><br />http://wotmania.com/theorypostdbtheory.asp?ID=833&amp;Category=Humor<br /><br />From a different approach though I might be inclined to agree with you (reason why not below). That approach is a literary one. What is there for Moiraine to come back to? Consider her roles:<br /><br />1. Rand's guide - he now has Cadsuane, who is stronger than Moiraine and more knowledgeable.<br /><br />2. Lan's AS - he now has Nynaeve, whom he is in love with.<br /><br />3. Siuan's agent in the outside world - obviously not a role available in Siuan's new circumstances.<br /><br />There does not seem to be any good reason from the point of view of the plot for Moiraine to come back.<br /><br />Really the only thing left to bring Moiraine back for is for her to marry Thom. And that is why ultimately I disagree with you. Doing something unlikely, schmaltzy and romantic has RJ written all over it. Cue hate mail...<br /><br />(I'm first, I'm first, I'm first, yay.)


created: 2003-07-08 19:10:51
subject: <b>You are totally wrong</b>
body:
I really can not believe that you chose this particular theory to debunk. Moraine's return has got to be the single theory that is most likely to occur. Your argument is extremely weak in that you offer no support for your position only mild criticism against the theory.<br />Not knowing what Min's viewing was, how complete and clear it was to her, your supposition that she knows it failed is weak. She could just have been confused. Min herself stated that Aes Sedai are hard to read at times and tend to have a lot of images around them always. I would have to believe Moraine would have had a bunch.<br />I am staking all of my WOT points that Moraine turns up in the next book.


created: 2003-07-08 20:12:15
subject: <b>I'm thoroughly convinced</b>
body:
that Moiraine is coming back. This theory seems to enforce that rather than dubunk it. Your main point of contention seems to be that each piece of evidence in itself is merely coincidental, however, when you keep stacking up piece after piece of coincidental evidence, I start to think, hey that's a lot of coincidences, maybe there's something more to this.<br />Also, you state that when the red doorway melted, Moiraine could have left through the other door. What other door? The only other door I've seen like this one is the one in Tear that takes people to the land of the Aelfinn, a completely different land from all the evidence we've been shown.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;I can express more emotion than laughter, anger and let's . . .&quot;<br /><br />Shooganooga<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-08 21:11:29
subject: <b>disagree.</b>
body:
I totally and fully disagree, but I'm not going to go into that.<br /><br />I only wanted to say that the thing Moiraine was sure sure would happen in the world after that did not concern Rand was more likely to have been the shifting of Lan's bond.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Of course, that's just my opinion.<br /><br /><br />I want the words<br />Something you haven't heard <br />Will I find them and<br />Will I have what it takes to say them?</font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-08 22:39:26
subject: <b>i have a comment</b>
body:
You say &quot;Then why Moiraine didn't just return through the other Doorway (provided that the Finns have captured Lanfear, who is a Forsaken, and everything about the Shadow is forbidden there), the Finns had no reason to capture her.&quot;<br /><br />         This statement is not true,(everything about the shadow is forbidden there), all we know is that questions touching the shadow are dangerous and that is in the other doorway in tear. remember this doorway is the one from rhuidean and it has the fox ppl in it (i think), questions arent answered there, requests are granted.<br /> <br />Also no one yet has mentioned that moiraine pulled lanfear through the gateway by the bracelet angreal, so it is possible she pulled it off lanfear leaving her channeling more power than she could draw unaided stilling her (lanfear) as they fell through the doorway, this is why i think that lanfear did not kill moiraine. (of course this is speculation but it could explain why cyndane is weaker than lanfear, because we have seen similar things happen to siuan and leanne)<br /> <br /> I also have to agree w/ most the other ppl so far moiraine is coming back. you argue that the most probable reason the bond between lan and moiraine was broken was because moiraine died, i agree that that is the most probable explanation, but this is a book after all. <br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Whelp, I'm rich! So long losers who I've always hated.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-08 23:18:40
subject: <b>I agree with half the theory</b>
body:
I have believed for a long time that Moiraine died of starvation in Finnland, or that she has been trapped, with dying more likely. My belief is that she will somehow return, but not through a Mat rescue.<br /><br />BTW...It's nice to see a new idea on this. I have a long BB post on the theory Moiraine WILL return.


created: 2003-07-08 23:55:27
subject: <b>Horn of Valere</b>
body:
Moraine could come back as one of the Heroes of the Horn, the next time it is used.  Maybe that's when she helps Rand.


created: 2003-07-09 02:11:53
subject: <b>Good theory considering</b>
body:
There are just too many &quot;could's&quot; in the part of the theory that negates the reasoning that moraine is alive. True that RJ doesn't make people 100% sure that moirane is coming back, but that's because I belive it depends on the actions of Rand and folk. For dramatic purposes in every prophesy there is usally a chance that the good guys will fail, but of course they almost never due. And your argument that RJ wants to &quot;suprise&quot; us is at the very most a loose argument. Also in your reasoning for every one of your points there's 10 point for moirane being alive and hundreds of more &quot;could's&quot; applied to your arguments. <br /><br />All this theory does is show that you can't be 100% percent sure of anything in RJ's world cause RJ's world is a perice of good dramatic fiction. And if your trying to prove that you can't be sure of anything and that it's more dramatic if you aren't then why the f**k are you writing and reading theories whose sole pupose is to figure out as much of the story as possible.<br /><br />Anyway, good theory that gave semi-coherant arguments a did a pretty good job of covering all the arguments for moiranes ressurection even though I completely and totally disagree with its nature.<br /><br />Oh yeah, was lanfear still alive if Moiraine died.<br /><br />I'm sure you can come up with a crappy rebutal it's just one of the few peices of moirane still being alive.<br /><br />I could have ripped this theory to shreds, but I'm tired and that pretty much covers what I felt about it.


created: 2003-07-09 02:47:47
subject: <b>What the hell were you thinking!?!?!?</b>
body:
Lord of the Rings spoilers ahead? What are you talking about - Lord of the Rings was published over 50 years ago, if anyone hasn't read it by now, at the very least they know what happens since nearly every fantasy book since has copied it, and there have been several movies on it. Why didn't you have an 'EotW spoiler ahead'?<br /><br />Sorry about that outburst, but besides from that, the sheer volume of good circumstancial evidence is against you. You have as much chance of being right as Mat does of not using gun powder (also based on circumstancial evidence).<br /><br />Why did Min believe her viewing was wrong? She doesn't believe people can come back from the dead. Reasonable stance, don't you think? What does Egwene's dream mean otherwise (why did she need to take an apprenticeship to learn how to understand her dreams - they seem pretty straightforward to me)? The fact that it has been 5 books since she died would be good evidence that she's never coming back in any series by RJ. And Moiraine had glimpses of the future (certain) from the Finns, and (possible) from the rings. If she thinks she's coming back, I'm willing to give her the benefit of the doubt, and the rings explain how she knows she'll probably marry Thom before visiting the Finns. She probably did die with Lanfear, but that won't stop our fiesty girl.<br /><br />Finally - all the characters believe she is dead and gone, and they are always wrong.


created: 2003-07-09 03:13:45
subject: <b>one thing that doesn't concern you</b>
body:
This is just a reply to one of the comments..   I've always thought to myself that the thing that doesn't concern him is her marrying Thom or just some minor thing that Min told her.  She could've talked herself into that being true so it wasn't a lie when she said it didn't concern him.  (she said &quot;perhaps&quot; too.  so it could perhaps be 1 thing.. or it could be 30).   and I don't think she'd want him wasting time trying to find her by saying &quot;Oh, and there's a 1% chance I'll still be alive in the fox place.&quot;<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Wartherded by Phil Reborn<br /><br />CW</font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-09 03:20:50
subject: <b>I totally disagree...</b>
body:
and could give a rebuttal for each point. Because I'm in a bit of a hurry I'll just limit myself to one: your point about Moiraine not being stilled. You see, most people have argued she was not stilled by Lanfear, but instead believe they were both burned out by the terangreal overload reaction which also melted the doorway. If Marith [Setalle] was burned out making one small mistake with a terangreal, it stand to reason a one power fight with an angreal inside a terangreal would burn both channelers out. This is also totally consistend with Cyndane being weaker then Lanfear was while Balthamel and Aginor retained their OP strenght.


created: 2003-07-09 03:55:09
subject: <b>Breaking Down of the Barriers</b>
body:
What about the possibility that with the breaking down of the barriers between the worlds would allow the &quot;ghost&quot; of Moiraine to converse or interact with one of the main characters, and thus forefilling any viewing or dream?<br />The stone is afterall pulled from a fire... Fire - Death - Hades - Ghost?<br />This is probibly not going to happen, but no-one has mentioned the symbolisim involved with pulling (summoning?) the stone from the fire (underworld?).<br />


created: 2003-07-09 03:57:50
subject: <b>I'm sure Moiraine will come back...</b>
body:
but of course all evidences can be interpreted in another way.<br /><br /><b> 1. The notorious Min's viewing about Moiraine </b><br /><br />I believe that Min's viewing was in fact that Moiraine and Thom will marry. <br />Probably Min tould Moiraine about it way back in Baerlon in EoTW or even before that episode.<br /><br />RJ often makes little allusions (like Min saying that only one of her viewings failed), so that the reader doesn't know at once what a character is talking about. <br />But when you think about it you can sometimes figure it out.<br /><br />We know that Moiraine was sure about her husband, we know that Thom was interested in Moiraine and Moiraine was interested in Thom, so it's likely that this was Min's viewing. <br />Moreover, Thom has no wife, yet. (Almost) all other good main characters have found their love. Why not Thom?   <br /><br />And note that normally Min views things that are a turning point for the person, very important and influence their life. <br />That would fit for a future husband but not the other possible viewings you presented.  <br /><br />In any case, it <i> mustn't </i> be that her viewing was about something Moiraine did in the past but Min doesn't learn about. <br />It <i> could </i> be, but it's rather unlikely looking at the other points.<br /><br /><b> 2. The other Min's viewing about the &quot;woman dead and gone&quot; </b><br /><br />Sure, it could be Lanfear or Cadsuane <i> or </i> Moiraine.<br /><br />Besides, note that this women is not only dead but also gone. Strange what does that mean? I believe Min thinks Moiraine died while her fight with Lanfear and fall through the doorway but at the same time her dead body is gone. They even can't burry Moiraine because they have no access to Finnland. <br />That explains &quot;dead and gone&quot;.<br /><br /><br /><b> 3. Egwene's dream about the Blue Stone and Thom. <br /><br />In all of the others Egwene's dreams, she sees the people she knows as themselves, not in some symbolic way. </b><br /><br />Well that's wrong. Faile and Berlain are symbolized as falcon and hawk in dreams about Perrin. <br /><br />Egwene thinks Moiraine is dead. It's no surprize that she doesn't dream of Moiraine as a living person.<br /><br />Of course it could also mean that Thom will help Rand in a way like Moiraine did it, but we haven't seen that Thom will become such an advisor to Rand.<br /><br />The real reason is of course that RJ doesn't want to make it <i> too </i> clear (for the reader and Egwene) that Thom will rescue Moiraine by letting e.g. dream Egwene of Thom carrying Moiraine. <br /><br /><b> Also for 5 books since Moiraine died Thom haven't made any effort to try to save her, which IMO speaks for itself. Not only that, but he seems to be completely sure that Moiraine is dead and gone for good (as do all other characters in the series). That makes the prospect of a rescue mission lead by Thom in Finnland very unlikely. </b><br /><br />You forget that now in CoT Thom regulary reads Moiraine's letter (or the plot relevance of Olver playing Snakes and Foxes and of the Tower of Ghenjei...). <br />That certainly means there is something more in the letter than only the names of some Red Sisters. <br /><br />I think Moiraine gave Thom a clue about her rescue and he tries to figure out the meaning. <br />Moiraine knew (maybe from the doorway in Tear) that she could very likely die at this day in Cairhien when she fell through the doorway, but she considered also that there will be the possibility that someone will rescue her after that.<br /><br /><b> Obviously Moiraine couldn't have known that she'll definitely come back when she wrote that.because that would definitely concern Rand. The small detail is probably about Thom's future, and that's why she knew he would survive Tanchico. </b><br /><br />Probably about Thom marrying her from Min; that means Moiraine will come back! ( <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" />) <br />Of course you can say, no, it was another detail, but my explaination would fit with all other points.<br /><br /><b> That's also easily explainable. She could wager, and she could easily lose the wager without lying. Also that happened BEFORE Moiraine went into the Red Doorstone Ter'Angreal in Tear; and considering that Moiraine's not a prophet, she had no way to know for certain who her future husband would be. </b><br /><br />You forget that Moiraine knew Min some time.<br /><br /><b> But lets assume that both Moiraine and Lanfear were stilled while going through the Doorway. Then why Moiraine didn't just return through the other Doorway (provided that the Finns have captured Lanfear, who is a Forsaken, and everything about the Shadow is forbidden there), the Finns had no reason to capture her. </b><br /><br />The doorway was melted where should she go? <br />That could also be the reason why the Finn captured both (I don't know if they directly recognize a Forsaken since they answer no questions about the Shadow they probably don't know much about it, either).<br />The Finn could be angry that someone destroyed their doorway. <br />Or they captured them because they couldn't throw them out of their land, since the doorway was destroyed. <br />Why should they accept that these women walk freely through their realm?<br />We know that Lanfear was indeed in the hands of the Finn.<br /><br />I think the bond vanished, too, because the doorway, the entry to Finnland, melted and so the distance was too great.<br /><br /><b> 3. The biggest reason of course is that we've had 5 books since that incident at the docks and still there's no sign of Moiraine coming back and especially of someone rescuing her. How many more books without her coming back are needed to convince you? </b><br /><br />She will return in book 11 or 12. <br />At the moment she is not needed. <br />But I'm sure when Moiraine comes back she will knew something very important, especially if she is really she woman dead and gone.<br /><br /><b> After the first few hundred pages of TEOTW RJ looks to by trying to avoid all comparisons with LOTR. I am sure he knows that for many readers Moiraine's the WoT's Gandalf and I doubt that he will copy Tolkien so blatantly after all the plagiarism accusations he's been through. </b><br /><br />Well, Gandalf didn't need a rescue like Moiraine. <br />So it's not the same only because of that reason (while there are many others). <br />I can't see any Tolkien plagiarism if Moiraine returns.<br /><br /><b> RJ has proved numerous times that he likes to surprise his readers. I am sure that he&#8217;s perfectly aware that 95 % of the WoT fans believe that Moiraine will come back, saved by Thom. But as I tried to show, there&#8217;s no definite proof for that in the books, so he can go either way without contradicting his earlier books. And I suspect he will use that chance to surprise his readers. </b><br /><br />No, he will make us all happy and pleased by letting Moiraine return with Thom's (Mat's and Olver's) help.<br /><br /><b> At least I would like to make those of you who are 100% sure that Moiraine's alive see that there's no definite evidence for that and a number of things that are in favor of the other option-that she died. </b><br /><br />Ok, until she really returns or TG is over without any sign of Moiraine there is no definite evidence. <br />But there are enough hints to make it clear that Moiraine will come back. <br /><br />Of course, even with these hints some people like you still don't believe it, therefore it's not clear to everyone; RJ can at least surprize you...


created: 2003-07-09 08:45:45
subject: <b>She'll be back...</b>
body:
Though I believe she's coming back burned out and won't be healed.  I think the massive amounts on OP that she and Lanfear were using when falling through caused the doorway's destruction, which in turned burned both of them out.  This removes one of the major problems with her marrying Thom, and when she returns it will be a great boon to Rand needing &quot;laughter and tears&quot;.  <br /><br />Another far-fetched possibility is the Tuvix episode of Star Trek:Voyager.  2 people go through the doorway, 1 comes out (Note Cyndane's physical appearance is nearly a cross between Lanfear and Moiraine, and that would also explain Lanfear's power reduction).  (Note 2: I don't believe this, but thought I'd bring it up as a possibility).<br /><br />The theory writer shows alternative interpretations to the currently accepted ones, but doesn't come close to proving anything.<br /><br />On to more specifics:<br /><br /><b>First to Etzel (and one of my pet peeves):</b><br /><i>2. The other Min's viewing about the &quot;woman dead and gone&quot; <br />Sure, it could be Lanfear or Cadsuane or Moiraine</i><br /><br />This could NOT be Cadsuane.  Min had already met or heard about Cadsuane being in the Sun Palace, so unless her vision was truly &quot;a woman dead and gone&quot; and not a specific person (I always got the feeling she knew who the woman was) and she had the viewing at least a couple days earlier than she mentions it to herself (don't think she had that viewing that long ago) it cannot refer to Cadsuane.<br /><br /><b>Lothlin</b><br /><i>This is probibly not going to happen, but no-one has mentioned the symbolisim involved with pulling (summoning?) the stone from the fire (underworld?).<br /></i><br /><br />You know, I actually never thought of this.  Of course it's basically the same thing as before because the Finnland is the closest thing to an underworld (besides SG/Pit of Doom, but no ones there that we can tell) that we've seen.  Besides, with all the other ghosts already loose, unless she's being held she should be able to come back in ghost form now.<br /><br /><b>Adrian</b><br /><i>Finally - all the characters believe she is dead and gone, and they are always wrong.</i><br /><br />This is one of the better arguments I've ever seen.  Gotta love characters that are always idiots.<br /><br />To the theory itself, I just want to say that Etzel pretty much dessimated it, so I don't need to waste my time or energy (thanks  Etzel, you pretty much made the arguments I would have).<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Fyatuk Loth<br />Pope Consort to Grand Mistress Krista Sedai<br />Minister to the Way of What<br />Warder to Egwene Dreamwalker (donate WSe please)<br /><br />Currently stalking Belals Girl.<br /><br />WTF?</font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-09 08:54:59
subject: <b>Sorry, but you're completely unconvincing</b>
body:
I agree with whoever posted earlier that your entire argument is weak.  Nothing I read prompted me to rethink any of this particular part of the story and your evidence is transparent and based completely on something other than what we have been presented with in the series.  It's nice that you're trying to think out of the box a little bit, but I think you should still keep it reasonable.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />  Erith  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />The higher, the fewer.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-09 08:57:49
subject: <b>How moiraine WILL come back!!!!</b>
body:
Depending on which door was destroyed she can be recovered by either:<br /><br />A) Asking how to get moiraine back<br /><br />or, <br /><br />B: Requesting her return (as an item, as it were; like mat got all his items.)<br /><br />My money is on the first option; it would seem far too easy to just walk in the doorway and ask for moiraine, although if 3 Ta'veren were to enter it again.......<br /><br />The one thing missing of course is a reason to go and look for her. Maybe Min will reveal moiraine's future need???<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Your Soul is Mine!!!  MWHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-09 09:05:21
subject: <b>Meh...</b>
body:
i'm wating for a chapter  in book 11 titled &quot;dead and gone&quot;<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> if moir don't return, i'll stop reading wot. she's the key to laughter + tears IMO<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Seeking Aes Sedai for Bondage... uhh bonding. <br /><br />We rode on the winds of the rising storm,<br />We ran to the sounds of the thunder,<br />We danced among the lightning bolts,<br />and tore the world asunder.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-09 09:25:23
subject: <b>Why are you all so stupid?</b>
body:
The only reason you force the evedence to fit what you want is because of what you WANT to believe. There is actually more proof to Moir being dead because of one simple thing. Moir went through the three rings in Rhudihan. She would have seen millions of possable things to happen in her life, so why would they, by coincedence, stop right when she went through the doorway. Either she is dead, or she is trapped in Finland forever, or she would know more than &quot;one little thing&quot; about what happens after. Face it people she is not coming back.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sir, I admit your general rule<br />That every poet is a fool.<br />But you yourself may serve to show it,<br />That every fool is not a poet.<br /> <br />Shendolin Valderen on the RPG <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-09 10:10:15
subject: <b>To Lothlin</b>
body:
<b> The stone is afterall pulled from a fire... Fire - Death - Hades - Ghost?<br />This is probibly not going to happen, but no-one has mentioned the symbolisim involved with pulling (summoning?) the stone from the fire (underworld?). </b><br /><br />That's a nice idea.<br /><br />Does someone know the story of Orpheus and Eurydike from the Greek mythology? <br /><br />Orpheus was the greatest of all singers. <br />When his wife Eurydike died he was so sad that he went to the Underworld (Hades) where the dead people stay. <br />He sang and played for the Gods there and they let him take Eurydike back to the world of the living, but on one condition: Orpheus was not allowed to look at her until they reached the exit of Hades. <br />But Orpheus love and fear were so great that shorty before they reached the world he looked at Eurydike and so she had to stay in Hades.  <br /><br />There are some parallels to WoT: <br /><br />Thom is a singer. He is probably in love with Moiraine who stays in another world in the hands of the Finn. <br />Thom wants to rescue her. We know that one key to beat the Finn is music.<br /><br />Maybe RJ was partly influenced by the myth of Orpheus and Eurydike (rather than by Gandalf's return) when he made up this plot. <br />And as his use of other myths shows us, RJ doesn't take their content one-to-one: e.g. Thom will be successful.  <br />


created: 2003-07-09 10:22:18
subject: <b>Ah, I forgot...</b>
body:
To Fyatuk,<br /><br /><b> This could NOT be Cadsuane. Min had already met or heard about Cadsuane being in the Sun Palace, so unless her vision was truly &quot;a woman dead and gone&quot; and not a specific person (I always got the feeling she knew who the woman was) and she had the viewing at least a couple days earlier than she mentions it to herself (don't think she had that viewing that long ago) it cannot refer to Cadsuane. </b><br /><br />Agreed! <br />I just mentioned Cadsuane because many peeople suggested she could be the woman dead and gone.<br /><br />


created: 2003-07-09 10:23:34
subject: <b>I was trying to remember which that was....</b>
body:
I was trying to remember that myth myself, but the only one I could pull up was Persephone (which of course annoyed me since it wasn't the one I wanted).<br /><br />Thanks for bringing that up.  It's a very good parallel.<br /><br />And to Rand_Al-Thor:<br /><br />Bringing up that she says she didn't see anything past that day in the rings doesn't mean much.  We don't know how the rings work or what they showed her.  We do know she saw multiple possibilities to handle Rand, and all failed.<br /><br />For all we know the rings may just show important decision points in your life and that was her last important decision.<br /><br />It's a good argument, but there's not enough information for it to be all-consuming like you imply.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Fyatuk Loth<br />Pope Consort to Grand Mistress Krista Sedai<br />Minister to the Way of What<br />Warder to Egwene Dreamwalker (donate WSe please)<br /><br />Currently stalking Belals Girl.<br /><br />WTF?</font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-09 11:22:10
subject: <b>About the 'future' rings ter'angreal</b>
body:
I don't have the books with me so bear with me. I seem to remember the Accepted rings could only be used by channelers, and it's not far-fetched at all to assume the Rhuidean 'future' rings work the same way they really look alike after all. So if Moiraine was stilled, she could logically not see beyond that point, which also fits in nicely with the idea she's going to marry Thom and no longer be an AS. I'd be very grateful if somebody could come up with the qoute as I'm working on a theory about those ter'angreal.


created: 2003-07-09 11:24:20
subject: <b>I think the same</b>
body:
I just want to add some points:<br /><br />1. The woman dead and gone:<br />Cadsuane Melaidhrin? Morgase? Cadsuane has to teach 'something' to Rand or he will fail, and all the other Aes Sedai thought Cadsuane was 'dead and gone' long ago.... In the other hand, Morgase is now thought to be dead, and it's possible that if she appears alive Gawin would stop hating Rand... just possibilities to show that a &quot;woman who was dead and gone&quot; doesn't have to be Moraine. In fact in my opinion it points directly to Cadsuane.<br /><br />2. Min's failed vision:<br />I think there are two posibilities, first Min just think it has failed. Min doesn&#8217;t know everything Moraine did, or it's implications. Since we don't know what this viewing was we can't say its not something like &quot;she will help Thom get his revenge&quot; and I think she will do it by the letter she send him. Second, may be the vision actually failed, and it was about something she was going to do till she saw something in Ruidean or in the Stone, that made her alter her own future...<br /><br />3. Thom and the blue stone<br />Let's see, what did Moiraine used her stone to? She used it to get information about other people without then knowing. I think that stone represents information on a secret from Moiraine and the fire the fact that she is dead and that all that remains from her is that information. So the dream means that after Moiraine's dead Thom will get some information that he shouldn't, like in a letter or something <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />4. I will see you again<br />Nothing more to say here, perfect explication, love it and think the same <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />5. No time<br />Another thing that helps this theory is that it's supposed that in only two more books the history will end (someone really believe it???), and now there are a lot of real things that have to be done, rescue Faile (go for it Perrin), Mat marriage, Egwene rescue, battle for the white tower, maybe firepower, Elayne &#8211; Andor succession, all about the borderlanders army, the unification of the towers, consequences of the cleaning, what is happening in the islands of the sea people, and with the whitecloaks, what about Arthur Hawkings armies, what is happening with the black sisters.... did I miss something... yes of course, The last battle!!! that should be at least half a book or I will be very disappointed, and Mat should have the Horn in his hands again before this.... Do you really think that two books will be enough I don't think it can be done another ten.<br /><br />Totally agree with this theory<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">How much is the butcher's bill for 300gr of ham?<br />Flashman <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/troll.gif" border="0" /><br />The big traveler...<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-09 11:49:08
subject: <b>as I already said...</b>
body:
<b>From Flashman:</b><br /><i>1. The woman dead and gone:<br />Cadsuane Melaidhrin? Morgase? Cadsuane has to teach 'something' to Rand or he will fail, and all the other Aes Sedai thought Cadsuane was 'dead and gone' long ago.... In the other hand, Morgase is now thought to be dead, and it's possible that if she appears alive Gawin would stop hating Rand... just possibilities to show that a &quot;woman who was dead and gone&quot; doesn't have to be Moraine. In fact in my opinion it points directly to Cadsuane.</i><br /><br />Min has pretty much always realized when her visions came true, even if she didn't know the meaning beforehand.  By the time Min thought this she had already met Cadsuane and was aware Cadsuane was going to be around for a while.  If her vision was about Cadsuane she would not be upset about it.  Cadsuane is the one person who I'm sure that particular vision does not refer to.<br /><br /><i>2. Min's failed vision:<br />I think there are two posibilities, first Min just think it has failed. Min doesn&#8217;t know everything Moraine did, or it's implications. Since we don't know what this viewing was we can't say its not something like &quot;she will help Thom get his revenge&quot; and I think she will do it by the letter she send him. Second, may be the vision actually failed, and it was about something she was going to do till she saw something in Ruidean or in the Stone, that made her alter her own future... </i><br /><br />We have no proof that this is even possible.  Even when people were TRYING to get away from Min's visions they fell into them.  Min appears to read points on the Pattern that have to happen.  It's not likely you can escape from Min's viewings.  It could be something that Min is not aware that Moiraine completed it, but Moiraine did not alter her future away from it.<br /><br /><i>3. Thom and the blue stone<br />Let's see, what did Moiraine used her stone to? She used it to get information about other people without then knowing. I think that stone represents information on a secret from Moiraine and the fire the fact that she is dead and that all that remains from her is that information. So the dream means that after Moiraine's dead Thom will get some information that he shouldn't, like in a letter or something </i><br /><br />She used the stone for more than just eavesdropping.  She stated that fairly early on (that she used it for many things, that it was completely unnecessary, but it helped her focus).  But you're interpretation is a valid possibility.  Of course the dream could also mean she had some bad chile, but I don't think anyone thinks that.<br /><br /><i>4. I will see you again<br />Nothing more to say here, perfect explication, love it and think the same </i><br /><br />Right, it just means at the time she was positive they would see each other again.  Which is perfectly reasonable since she had no reason to think she would die and they are both attached to Rand &amp; Crew.  Of course she could have had other information that made her sure of that.<br /><br /><i>5. No time<br />Another thing that helps this theory is that it's supposed that in only two more books the history will end (someone really believe it???), and now there are a lot of real things that have to be done, rescue Faile (go for it Perrin), Mat marriage, Egwene rescue, battle for the white tower, maybe firepower, Elayne &#8211; Andor succession, all about the borderlanders army, the unification of the towers, consequences of the cleaning, what is happening in the islands of the sea people, and with the whitecloaks, what about Arthur Hawkings armies, what is happening with the black sisters.... did I miss something... yes of course, The last battle!!! that should be at least half a book or I will be very disappointed, and Mat should have the Horn in his hands again before this.... Do you really think that two books will be enough I don't think it can be done another ten.</i><br /><br />Let's see, in my estimation, most of that happens in the next book.  The WT is coming to a head, Perrin is in position, its probable Mat+Tuon get caught up to by Karede, etc.  But yeah, not sure how Thom would get where he needs to go with everything else that's about to happen.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Fyatuk Loth<br />Pope Consort to Grand Mistress Krista Sedai<br />Minister to the Way of What<br />Warder to Egwene Dreamwalker (donate WSe please)<br /><br />Currently stalking Belals Girl.<br /><br />WTF?</font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-09 12:49:51
subject: <b>She's coming back</b>
body:
Period. She and Thom have to get those chickens<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br /><i>I will try. Before surrendering to dreams or death, I will try.<font color="black"></font></i></font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-09 12:54:07
subject: <b>Seriously, though.</b>
body:
I like your reasoning, except for one thing - Min thought, &quot;...it was the only viewing of her's that had ever failed.&quot; The long and short of it it, Min's viewings NEVER fail. That means, that if she knows Moiraine has to be around for Rand to succeed, and has had a viewing of it, she <i>can't</i> be dead. I agree that Min just lost faith in that viewing. There's no way around it.<br /><br /><br />Moiraine is coming back.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br /><i>I will try. Before surrendering to dreams or death, I will try.<font color="black"></font></i></font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-09 13:23:26
subject: <b>A little detail</b>
body:
To Fyatuk<br /><b>Min has pretty much always realized when her visions came true, even if she didn't know the meaning beforehand. By the time Min thought this she had already met Cadsuane and was aware Cadsuane was going to be around for a while. If her vision was about Cadsuane she would not be upset about it. Cadsuane is the one person who I'm sure that particular vision does not refer to.</b><br />I think the exact quote is &quot;a woman who was dead and gone&quot;, why WAS and not IS, may be one who was and is not anylonger.... that would be Cadsuane, wouldn't it?<br />If her vision was about Cadsuane she would not be upset about it??? I don't think she knows who this dead and gone woman is. <br />And what is that of she alwais realizing where her visions came true... Does she get a mail... &quot;hi, this is the creator, do you remember that vision about Moraine... well its done&quot;<br /><br /><b>We have no proof that this is even possible. Even when people were TRYING to get away from Min's visions they fell into them. Min appears to read points on the Pattern that have to happen. It's not likely you can escape from Min's viewings. It could be something that Min is not aware that Moiraine completed it, but Moiraine did not alter her future away from it.</b><br />Neither have we seen someone trying who has information about her posible futures, and neither have proof of Morines return and everybody seems to be sure...<br /><br /><b>She used the stone for more than just eavesdropping.</b><br />I don't have a quote here, but that was the trick she had, and I remember some Aes Sedai said &quot;You know what she used that stone for&quot;, speaking of eavesdropping. She may use it for more thigs, but that was the ONE<br /><br /><b>Let's see, in my estimation, most of that happens in the next book</b><br />I bet not even half of it, and I'm sure there will be new paths..., just think how long some of this things were supoused to be done with in book 10<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">How much is the butcher's bill for 300gr of ham?<br />Flashman <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/troll.gif" border="0" /><br />The big traveler...<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-09 14:07:06
subject: <b>Flashman:</b>
body:
<i> think the exact quote is &quot;a woman who was dead and gone&quot;, why WAS and not IS, may be one who was and is not anylonger.... that would be Cadsuane, wouldn't it?<br />If her vision was about Cadsuane she would not be upset about it??? I don't think she knows who this dead and gone woman is. <br />And what is that of she alwais realizing where her visions came true... Does she get a mail... &quot;hi, this is the creator, do you remember that vision about Moraine... well its done&quot;</i><br /><br />You have a point that she might not be able to identify the person, and yes you are correct on the quote (IIRC).  <br />In fact I've mentioned the possibility that she might not know what the woman looks like, but the connotation of the scene is that she does.  Therefore if she does know what the woman looks like, and still upset about it when Cadsuane is there, then it cannot be about Cadsuane.<br /><br />The tense is meaningless in this sense.  Since you are talking about someone that is dead, it makes sense to use the past tense when discussing them (whether or not it is grammatically correct).  Besides that this is a story meant to entertain and grammar is unimportant (people put way too much stock in RJ's grammar).<br /><br />And I didn't mean it like that.  I mean I got the impression that when she sees something relating to her visions, even if she doesn't understand them, she would know if that they came true.  Otherwise how would she know they ALWAYS came true.<br /><br /><i>Neither have we seen someone trying who has information about her posible futures, and neither have proof of Morines return and everybody seems to be sure...</i><br /><br />Quite true.  I've always said that I THINK Moiraine will be back.  I'm definitely not sure (though it does fit the pattern).  There's more evidence supporting that Min is always right and Moiraine will be back then Min is wrong though.  My point was that people have tried to avoid Min's viewings before and failed.  Moiraine's knowledge of possible lives may have helped her where no one else has succeeded though.<br /><br /><i>I don't have a quote here, but that was the trick she had, and I remember some Aes Sedai said &quot;You know what she used that stone for&quot;, speaking of eavesdropping. She may use it for more thigs, but that was the ONE </i><br /><br />Again you are right, it was the trick everyone knew she had (she wasn't the only person with that specific trick as well).  I never denied it was one of her uses, I was only bringing up that it was not its only use.<br /><br /><i>I bet not even half of it, and I'm sure there will be new paths..., just think how long some of this things were supoused to be done with in book 10 </i><br /><br />Actually, after finishing Winters Heart I didn't think anything would be finished in CoT (I hoped they would, but honestly didn't think so).  Now I think several will be resolved in the next installment.  I really am expecting the Perrin and Elayne storylines to conclude, and the BT and WT battles to begin (I don't expect them to end until later, but they should start by the end of the next book).<br /><br />But that is just an opinion and really has no bearing on this argument.  We've seen RJ doesn't mind having overly long books to put what he needs to put in there and we've seen that he'll let a storyline wait until the next book.  Either could happen, and their about equally likely.<br /><br />BTW:  Your post seemed a trifle aggressive (not sure if that was intentional or not, or I could be imagining things).  If I stimulated that I apologize, I never mean to provoke anything but thought.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Fyatuk Loth<br />Pope Consort to Grand Mistress Krista Sedai<br />Minister to the Way of What<br />Warder to Egwene Dreamwalker (donate WSe please)<br /><br />Currently stalking Belals Girl.<br /><br />WTF?</font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-09 16:33:51
subject: <b>Fyatuk</b>
body:
Sorry if it seems to you that I've been agresive... it's just my way of saying things, no ofense mean, really if I ofended you I'm sorry.<br />I really would like Moraine to come back, it's just that i don't think she will... anyway I like to put some fire here <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">How much is the butcher's bill for 300gr of ham?<br />Flashman <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/troll.gif" border="0" /><br />The big traveler...<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-09 16:46:32
subject: <b>No Problem</b>
body:
I just wanted to make sure we didn't develop a flame war like what happened on the Four in the Door theory.<br /><br />I personally would like to see her not come back, but I think she will.  Course I think she'll come back without the ability to channel (unlike Gandalf who came back stronger).<br /><br />Rather interesting that we're both arguing for the side we don't want, isn't it...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Fyatuk Loth<br />Pope Consort to Grand Mistress Krista Sedai<br />Minister to the Way of What<br />Warder to Egwene Dreamwalker (donate WSe please)<br /><br />Currently stalking Belals Girl.<br /><br />WTF?</font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-09 18:26:32
subject: <b>I think I found a flaw</b>
body:
I seem to remember in TLOC that in the battle with Lanfear, Moiraine &quot;pushed&quot; Lan from her mind.  Wouldn't that account for his bond being passed to Merilille, or whatever her name is spelled like.


created: 2003-07-09 20:49:31
subject: <b>I think you are wrong</b>
body:
I would like to point out a couple of things that you said that could be taken another way or explained some how.  <br />     1.  You stated that in Egwene's dreams people are shown as the people that they are not a symbols.  In many of here dreams Perrin is shown as a wolf.  Now in the real world he is human not a wolf.  Do you get my point?<br />     2.  Moiraine told Thom that they would see each other again.  As you said she went through the doorway before this.  But from here letter to Rand we know that while in the doorway she learned that she would die killing Lanfear.  With her not beeing able to lie and all that is pretty good evidence that she will come back.<br />Sorry if I took up space with repeated info but I had to tell my point of view.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Wolfbrother <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Devoted Wotmaniac.  Will read every WOT book even if there happen to be 143. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Proud member of the Table Group<br /><br />Embrace the past.  Fight for the future.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-09 23:43:22
subject: <b>Let me point out the technical problem with your theory.</b>
body:
It was very good of you to include references to many of the arguments for her rescue and rebut them, but this creates doubt in us (including myself, I still say she's coming back).<br /><br />Quite simply, you put forward an overwhelming amount of evidence suggesting the opposite of your theory, and made some pretty shaky excuses to come out of them.  Admittedly, Egwene's dreams don't HAVE to come true -- but I'd say betting against them all being true is a losing bet.  We know that these are Dreams, rather than dreams, and so they do predict the future.  And no Foretelling or Min viewing has ever failed to be true thus far (we can't count the one in question because of it's specific relevance).<br /><br />Yes, you seem to have provided evidence that Moiraine might not have survive.  But in most of these situations, the simplest solution points otherwise.  I wouldn't count on this amount of foreshadowing just to mess with our heads.<br /><br />Finally, as for Egwene's dream:  I can think of no literary reason to put that in there.  If it is a false prophecy, then it's kind of wasted because nobody properly interpreted it.  Normally, things that appear in a book have either direct plotline relevance or foreshadowing/symbolism to them.  Unless they start following up on a false prophecy (direct plotline relevance) then we should assume that it is foreshadowing (i.e. Moiraine lives).<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Your.Master <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-10 00:38:50
subject: <b>I have to stand by what I said earlier</b>
body:
I think that she will NOT be rescued, but she'll come back somehow, probably literally from the dead, which she died by through starvation.


created: 2003-07-10 06:39:16
subject: <b>About bonds and doorways:</b>
body:
Even though their actual locations differed by many miles, Elayne felt Birgitte in her head as soon as a gateway to Caemlyn was opened by Aviendha in CoT.  She moved no closer, and neither did Birgitte.  The bond simply moved through the shortest distance available.  This suggests that Lan's bond was unaffected by Moiraine's passage through the doorway.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-10 08:05:29
subject: <b>Maybe</b>
body:
From all the prophecies that are mentioned concerning Moiraine it is easy to believe that she is coming back.  But whenever I read that books it doesn't seem to be in RJs style to suddenly get Mat and Thom to rescue her. <br /><br />In the end it comes to whether you think RJ is leading us on another wild goose hunt or not.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">nam et ipsa scientia potestas est<br /><br />Latin is not dead its just resting after a long squawk</font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-10 08:38:49
subject: <b>Hmmm..</b>
body:
<b>1. She went through the Door-Ter'angreal while fighting<br /> the strongest female channeler ever and the Doorway was <br />incinerated. Chances are that she was immediately killed by <br />Lanfear on the other side. And I&#8217;ve never accepted the <br />explanation that they were separated because that happened <br />with Rand, Mat, and Moiraine in the other Doorway in Tear. <br />Lanfear and Moiraine went in there holding each other, why <br />they should&#8217;ve been separated? In the other case Mat, Rand, <br />and Moiraine went in one after the other, most likely there <br />were whole minutes between them entering.</b><br /><br /><br />We know the Finns feed on emotion. We also know they have <br />ways of telling when people enter their realm. So I don't <br />think it would take too long for them to show up and <br />prevent Lanfear destroying Moiraine if that was what they <br />wanted. Also, without the means to &quot;cheat&quot;, you never win <br />against the Finns. So you could expect even Lanfear to have <br />trouble dealing with them, they are otherworldly and its <br />never been made clear what powerr they may have over even <br />channelers.<br /><br /><br /><b>Her bond with Lan was severed.There are four possible <br />explanations for that which I've seen posted:<br /><br /><br />A) She died<br />B) She was stilled while going through the Doorway.<br />C) Because of the great distance between Finnland and Lan<br />D) Moiraine somehow unbonded Lan instantly</b><br /><br />The most likely is B, not D or C. They fell through a <br />malfunctioning ter'angreal. Ter'angreal still Aes Sedai who <br />study them. They are dangerous. If Lanfear is Cydane, then <br />when we see her resurrected, she has recovered the ability <br />to channel. This is a better point: if the Finn killed <br />Lanfear, then why not Moiraine? A lot of the arguments you <br />have put forward really come under the RAFO because we <br />still don't know enough about Moiraines role and why Rand <br />needs her help to succeed.<br /><br />Oh, and fix that sig Lord of Twilight.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Gratch was Richard's little bitch.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-10 10:04:40
subject: <b>Moiraine Isn't a Prophet!</b>
body:
Well of course Ms M. isn't a prophet. You forget that she went through the pillars in Rhuidean. These pillars show the Wise Ones glimpses of their future ... This is obviously where she got her 'prophetic' information from


created: 2003-07-10 12:23:00
subject: <b>No Good Proves</b>
body:
There is no clear proves for this theory.I just saw that you want Moarein not to return,but i also hate many characters.This is not a reason to make a theory for somoeno you hate.....ok,i'll make a theory about Elaida-she is stupid,so she will die.


created: 2003-07-10 12:33:03
subject: <b>Kezz</b>
body:
That statement about Moiraine not being a prophet refers to when she told Thom she would see him again, long before she went through the rings in Rhuidean, well not long, a few days before...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Fyatuk Loth<br />Pope Consort to Grand Mistress Krista Sedai<br />Minister to the Way of What<br />Warder to Egwene Dreamwalker (donate WSe please)<br /><br />Currently stalking Belals Girl.<br /><br />WTF?</font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-11 01:51:29
subject: <b>Prophecy</b>
body:
You can't just assume since Moiraine hasn't been saved in 5 books that she won't be back.  RJ made plenty of prophecy in The Eye Of The World that hasn't been fullfilled in 10 books.  I personally would like to see Moirain come back since she was the only Aes Sedai who wasn't blinded by tower law or custom or Black Ajah.


created: 2003-07-11 08:17:48
subject: <b>I was reading an old RJ interview the other day,</b>
body:
and one of the questions was: Will Moiraine be returning?<br /><br /> RJ's response: &quot;RAFO. In fact, I really suggest you to RAFO.&quot;<br /><br /> It seemed rather emphatic on his part. I believe it was a 1994 interview. Anyway, that's not really conclusive evidence anyway. However, I think he has given us enough clues to be fairly sure she will make a return before the end of the series. Whether or not she has a major role yet to play is up in the air.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-11 17:54:15
subject:
<b>Looks like my theory is quite popular <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /></b>

body:
Thanks for all the replies, even though most of them are negative towards my theory, it was expected. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /> I finally found some time to read and reply to the most important of those comments. First I won't to comment on that, which is kind of off topic, but still..<br /> <br /> <font size="-1"><b>&quot; Lord of the Rings spoilers ahead? What are you talking about - Lord of the Rings was published over 50 years ago, if anyone hasn't read it by now, at the very least they know what happens since nearly every fantasy book since has copied it, and there have been several movies on it. Why didn't you have an 'EotW spoiler ahead'?&quot;</b></font><br /> <br /> The fact that LOTR was published 50 years ago and is so popular doesn't mean everyone has read it already. In fact I remember a few upset and angry people on another WoT forum because someone used the same argument about the simularities between Gandalf and Moiraine and spoiled the surprise for them.<br /><br /> About the number of comments in which is stated that I am right that all of the evidences for Moiraine coming back are circumstancial, but there are quite a lot of them and so she'll be back-do you remember Taimandred?Once a very popular theory, with a lot more circumstantial evidences  and no major problems with it before WH(admitedly most of them were weaker, but there were about 17 of them). But it was proven wrong in WH and by the recent RJ statemnts. My point is that circumstantial evidence is not enough, as you know from real life trials. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /> <font size="-1"><b>&quot;Why did Min believe her viewing was wrong? She doesn't believe people can come back from the dead. Reasonable stance, don't you think?&quot;</b></font><br /><br /> Min never saw Moiraine die, Rand and co -also. If her viewing was so clear and about the future, she would've never believed it that Moiraine is gone for good. Min has complete and utmost belief in her viewings as it shown many times troughout the series. So why is she &quot;not really expecting Moiraine to turn up alive&quot;? My explanation is also not perfect, I admit, but to me it makes more sense than the other possibility. And there's always the option of coming back as a Hero of the Horn.  <br /> <br /><font size="-1"><b> &quot;I like your reasoning, except for one thing - Min thought, &quot;...it was the only viewing of her's that had ever failed.&quot; The long and short of it it, Min's viewings NEVER fail. That means, that if she knows Moiraine has to be around for Rand to succeed, and has had a viewing of it, she can't be dead. I agree that Min just lost faith in that viewing. There's no way around it.&quot;</b></font><br /><br /> But most probably the failed viewing Min was thinking about is not the same one with the woman dead and gone. Because at that moment Min doesn't know if Rand will succeed, so she doesn't know whether that viewing will fail or not. And it has the word &quot;almost&quot; in it, so it can end up eighter Rand winning or him losing, and still the viewing would not fail.<br /> And it would be so normal for a WoT character(Min) to assume that her viewing is already failed based on wrong or insufficient info.<br /> <br /> <font size="-1"><b>&quot;1. You stated that in Egwene's dreams people are shown as the people that they are not a symbols. In many of here dreams Perrin is shown as a wolf. Now in the real world he is human not a wolf. Do you get my point?&quot;</b></font><br /> But in the dream world Perrin is wolf, right? Do you get my point? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /> Also Perrin is like half a wolf at the moment, Moiraine's not half a stone. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /> But seriously, I know that's not my strongest argument, just wanted to point out that the blue stone in the dream doesn't necessary means Moiraine.<br /><br /> <font size="-1"><b>&quot;We also know they have<br />ways of telling when people enter their realm. So I don't<br />think it would take too long for them to show up and<br />prevent Lanfear destroying Moiraine if that was what they<br />wanted&quot;</b></font><br /><br /> They must've been amazingly quick because Lanfear, if not burned, can kill Moiraine in an instant, especially knowing that they went into a strange world with a possibly hostile and mighty creatires in there, Lanfear would've wanted to finish off Moiraine as quickly as possible. And why should the Finns do it, anyway? Why they would waste your time and efforts trying to save Moiraine?<br /><br /><font size="-1"><b> &quot;I just saw that you want Moarein not to return,but i also hate many characters.This is not a reason to make a theory for somoeno you hate.....ok,i'll make a theory about Elaida-she is stupid,so she will die.&quot;{</b></font><br /><br /> Actually I like Moiraine, she was one of the better characters in Wot before her death. But I prefer her to stay dead, too many comebacks already, and it would suck if the only major good character who died for 10 books comes back. Let her rest in peace. She played her part, she eliminated two Forsaken, she helped the Dragon Reborn as much as she could, and she died in a heroic battle. Why ruin that with a ridiculous comeback?<br /><br /> <br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Proud member of the Egweenie Roasters Club</font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-12 15:30:58
subject: <b>The tower of Ghenji??</b>
body:
&lt;&lt;&lt;&quot;&quot;1. She went through the Door-Ter'angreal while fighting the strongest female channeler ever and the Doorway was incinerated. Chances are that she was immediately killed by Lanfear on the other side. And I&#8217;ve never accepted the explanation that they were separated because that happened with Rand, Mat, and Moiraine in the other Doorway in Tear. Lanfear and Moiraine went in there holding each other, why they should&#8217;ve been separated? In the other case Mat, Rand, and Moiraine went in one after the other, most likely there were whole minutes between them entering&quot;&quot;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br /><br />Disagree completely...Most assume that that door was the only way to get out...Do we forget so easily? Bridgit meeting Perrin in Tel'aran'rhiod..At the tower of Ghenjei? And what is the tower? The doorway to the aelfinn eelfin. Birgitte tells Perrin that &quot;..the Tower of Ghenjei is hard enough to leave in the world of men..&quot; So It can be left. I assume that even though we havn't seen it the mirror to the Tower of G in T'Rd is somewhere to be found in the &quot;real&quot; world. Second of all..There was so much balefire flung around by Rand and Rahvin that it tripped time back a couple of notches to where mat and the rest were alive again...what's to say that it didn't rip it right back to the instant the two women went thru the redstone door...<br /><br />And Min's viewing about Morraine the only one she was supposedly wrong about. Halloo. Min's never wrong. pure fact. Even when even she thinks she was. <br /><br />As far as lan was and is concerned. Moiraine had made certain her bond would be passed to Myrelle before she even went to the waste and ruhenden. That had been accomplished back then, because of the love of Lan for Nynaeve. If Moiraine had the ability to pass Lan's bond halfway to Myrelle then why not when she looked at him before leaping at Lanfear. She could have passed it completely while he was still out cold. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smackhead.gif" border="0" />  &quot;Does the Daughter of the Nine Moons Mean Anything To You??&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smackhead.gif" border="0" />


created: 2003-07-12 21:10:04
subject: <b>Moraine is dead, but your resonings are wrong.</b>
body:
The blue stone does not symbolize Moraine.  She used it to obtain information via her trick with the power.  Egwene had her dream at around the same time Thom got his letter from Moraine.  Can't people see the connection?  The blue stone represents knowledge that Moraine had, not Moraine herself, and Thom recieving that knowledge even though Moraine herself perished in fire.<br /><br />Also, a lot of these things could be simply explained by saying that:<br />1)  Moraine is dead<br />2)  She is now a hero tied to the Horn of Valere<br />3)  When the horn is sounded at the last battle, she will return with Hawkwing and all the other heroes.<br /><br />That would prove Min's viewing correct, since she saw that Moraine needs to be at the last battle in order for Rand to win.


created: 2003-07-13 06:33:12
subject: <b>for ReadTOOmuch</b>
body:
For clarity's sake:<br /><br />&gt;&gt;Birgitte tells Perrin that &quot;..the Tower of Ghenjei is hard enough to leave in the world of men..&quot; So It can be left. I assume that even though we havn't seen it the mirror to the Tower of G in T'Rd is somewhere to be found in the &quot;real&quot; world.&lt;&lt;<br /><br />Actually, we did catch a glimpse of it in EoW, &quot;Flight Down the Arinelle&quot; on Domon's ship, from Rand's POV:<br /><br />&quot;Another time, when the eastward shore had become flat grassland again, broken only occasionally by thickets, the sun glinted off something in the distance.  [Rand] 'What can that be? ... It looks like metal.' ... [Domon] 'It do be metal ... A tower of metal.  I have seen it close up, and I know.  River traders use it as a marker.  We be ten days from Whitebridge at the rate we go.' ... [Rand] 'A metal tower?' ...[Domon] 'Aye.  Shining steel, by the look and feel of it, but no a spot of rust.  Two hundred feet high, it be, as big around as a house, with no a mark on it and never an opening to be found.'&quot;<br /><br />This matches the description of the Tower of Ghenjei from Perrin's POV in T'A'R almost word for word in tSR &quot;To the Tower of Ghenjei&quot;.<br /><br />&quot;Two hundred feet the tower rose, and forty thick, gleaming like burnished steel.  It might as well have been a solid column of metal.  Perrin walked around it twice without seeing any opening, not so much as a crack, not even a mark on that smooth, sheer wall.&quot;<br /><br />The direction &amp; distance Perrin chases Slayer in this scene leads to the same location where Rand spots the tower, or so close it unambiguously IS the same tower.<br /><br />Then you confusingly wrote:<br /><br />&gt;&gt;Second of all..There was so much balefire flung around by Rand and Rahvin that it tripped time back a couple of notches to where mat and the rest were alive again...what's to say that it didn't rip it right back to the instant the two women went thru the redstone door...&lt;&lt;<br /><br />I&#8217;m assuming you&#8217;re referring to the huge amount of balefire Rand used in his blast to eliminate Rahvin.  This eliminated Rahvin back a few minutes in time, and all effects Rahvin had on the world &#8220;after&#8221; being eliminated were also erased.  Since Rahvin blasted Mat and the rest of the raiding party who came with Rand &#8220;after&#8221; him being erased from the pattern, they were brought back to life thanks to Rand&#8217;s healthy dose of balefire.  Balefire does not &#8220;trip time back&#8221;; it burns a life-thread of the pattern back in time.  <br /><br />You seem to be saying that somehow Rahvin had something to do with the two women going through the ter&#8217;angreal doorway.  But he didn&#8217;t.  Even if Rand used enough balefire to erase Rahvin&#8217;s life-thread back in time to before Moiraine and Lanfear went through the doorway, the ladies STILL went through it because his life-thread didn&#8217;t affect this event.  Either that is what you are saying, or you are confused on how balefire works.  I don&#8217;t blame you there!  I haven&#8217;t experimented with enough drugs for balefire to make sense!<br /><br />I&#8217;m still trying to figure out what would happen if a group of 3 or more people stood in a circle and simultaneously used balefire on the person to their right.  I need a drink.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/loial.gif" border="0" />  I seek an end to ignorance.  Mine above all others  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/loial.gif" border="0" />  I seek an end to ignorance, mine above all others.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-13 16:54:41
subject: <b>Min's viewing says Rand will fail</b>
body:
((sorry, don't know how to do the &quot;quote format&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />)<br />Zeratul wrote: <br /><br />&lt;&lt;&lt;2. The other Min's viewing about the &quot;woman dead and gone&quot;:<br /><br />&quot;What good to tell him he would almost certainly fail without a woman who was dead and gone?&quot; (ACOS, Chapter 35, &#8220;Into the Woods&#8221;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />.<br /><br />Many people have suggested that &quot;the woman dead and gone&quot; is Moiraine. Even if that's right, that viewing is nowhere near conclusive about whether Moiraine will return. The reason for that is the word &quot;almost&quot;. Rand could still win Tarmon Gai'don and still the prophecy won't be broken. And his chances (if we put aside that this's a fantasy novel) have never been good, a human against a God-like creature like the Dark One and his numerous minions.&gt;&gt;&gt;<br /><br />Of course Rand is going to FAIL, IMO. I've posted several times on the MB that I believe Rand will indeed fail/fall to the Shadow. That is his fate as I see it. It is up to Mat to be the savior.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">--imlad</font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-14 14:51:01
subject: <b>Rand won't fail</b>
body:
WE have notices from the <b>FOURTH AGE!</b> Of course Rand doesn't fail because of that we know part of the future, where things are fairly good and things like that, so he wins.


created: 2003-07-14 16:17:04
subject: <b>Lan -</b>
body:
could easily have had his bond severed when the doorway was destroyed. He was still linked to Moiraine when she went through the door in Tear because the doorway remained as a link between the world of the Finn and the world Lan was in, but with the door gone, the link would no longer exist.


created: 2003-07-14 17:45:34
subject: <b>Hmm</b>
body:
I tried to read all the posts to ensure that this wasn't already posted, but, i didnt.<br />here goes...<br /><br />with the weakening of the old walls, the ghosts returning for example, it seems possible to me that Moiraine could come back as a spectre and guide Rand and company with the knowledge of the dead, this is just a thought, and my first post, so keep that in mind as you brutally shred my mini-thoery.<br />


created: 2003-07-15 08:07:17
subject: <b>Now why would we shread that?</b>
body:
Its a perfectly reasonable theory.  If Moiraine comes back as a ghost/spectre then she would have the knowledge of her past lives (including knowledge from the AoL and before) so she would definitely have helpful knowledge.<br /><br />However we haven't seen any ghost really communicate with anyone, and if that's the case then RJ pisses off all us &quot;Moiraine &amp; Thom are gonna hookup&quot; people.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Fyatuk Loth<br />Pope Consort to Grand Mistress Krista Sedai<br />Minister to the Way of What<br />Warder to Egwene Dreamwalker (donate WSe please)<br /><br />Currently stalking Belals Girl.<br /><br />WTF?</font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-19 17:30:07
subject: <b>Etzel is right</b>
body:
Of course, Moiraine is coming back, in the flesh, and 95% of<br />the Readers will not be wrong!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-21 21:57:08
subject: <b>I agree with you.</b>
body:
People feel, by the comments I`ve read, that your theory is false based on the fact that most of your evidence is based on personal opinions and false interpretations. Basicaly that what you say is only heresay and cannot be proven. <br /><br />Well, that also, is the basis of every theory FOR her living. You were right in stating how people feel because of how they take what is said. But almost all their proof can be shown as simply misinterpereted by those readers. <br /><br />&quot;What good to tell him he would almost certainly fail without a woman who was dead and gone?&quot; Who is to say this woman is to come back? In her note to Rand, did Moiraine not warn him of trusting Aes Sedai? So this is her last bit of help, and it is recieved after she is dead. There you go, he`s recieved her help. If he does not take it, he fails. True enough, I should think.<br /><br />&quot;...while Thom Merrilin put his hand into a fire to draw out the small blue stone that now dangled on Moiraine's forehead.&quot; This being a dream should not be taken at face value. This could simply show Thom`s opinion changing for Aes Sedai. He hates them, yet he did have respect for Moiraine. She would embody they only Aes Sedai he was fond of. Him pulling her stone from the ashes may be him placing that trust despite the pain of his loss and his hatred. Her stone from Ashes.<br /><br />&quot;A quiet life would kill you, I think. Tanchico will not, however. I guarantee that, and by the First Oath, you know it for truth.&quot; Then&#8230; &quot;And I will see you again. You will survive Tarabon.&quot; Simply enough, these are based on facts she believes are true. If she sees them as truth, they will be. Thom lives for excitement. If the quiet life kills him, then wouldn`t a dangerous city like Tanchico give him hope and a bit of life? And Thom has survived HAlfmen, and the wrath of a queen. A city he`s visited should prove no trial at all, thus he`d survive. And she just believes she will see him. Less of a profetic statement, more of a reassurance.<br /><br />&quot;&#8216;Have you ever been in love, Moiraine?&#8217;<br />&#8220;The slender woman was not at all taken aback, for a long moment she looked levelly at the pair of them, each with an arm around the other. Finally she said, &#8220;&#8216;I could wager I know the face of my future husband better than either of you knows that of your future husband.&#8217;&#8221; Both are young women, full of life and hope, and a certain rebellion. Moiraine is older, and dedicated to her cause. she knows the face of her husband because she`s known him for years. No one. Being an Aes Sedai, and one whose dedicated her life to ONE major goal, she`s considered all she`s given up, and has weighed the pro`s and con`s. she knows she holds no hope for a husband, yet these women are young, and have not thought as long and deeply on such a topic.<br /><br />Now, I`m sorry that this is more like a theory in your theory, but I just hope that these comments will help other posters think before ripping you a new a**hole.<br /><br /><br />~Sentimental Johnny~<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Lugh of the Vanth<br />Prince of Coolavin<br />Lord of the Darmods<br /><br />&quot;If you must mount the gallows, give a jest to the crowd, a coin to the hangman, and make the drop with a smile on your lips.&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-31 15:34:39
subject: <b>You're wrong about Egwene's dreams</b>
body:
Egwene sees both Faile and Berelain as a Falcon and a Hawk on his shoulders in a dream.  You claim she never sees people as symbols.  You are wrong.


created: 2003-08-04 16:14:51
subject: <b>Um... i don't think so....</b>
body:
There's so much to support that Moiraine will come back, that the only way you can believe she won't is to really just hate her as a character, and to just not WANT her to come back.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Goddess Dictator <br /><br />Secret Ruler of the World <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />(Don't worry Rand, its only a flesh wound... or two.) <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-08-05 02:48:32
subject: <b>Moiraine's not dead, she's frozen....</b>
body:
and as soon as Thom finds his way to Finn land he's gonna thaw out Moiraine, and she's gonna be pretty pissed off!! You know why?  Have you ever taken a cold shower?  Multiply that by 15 million times that's how pissed off Moiraine's gonna be......... you know the rest.<br /><br />Oh, all jokes aside, nice thought, but I think she's coming back.


created: 2003-09-19 03:52:07
subject: <b>Maybe she is already back..</b>
body:
Im new to this but this is just a thought of mine. Maybe Moiraine is already back in Randland. In WHpage 325 Tuon is admiring her damane and Mylen is mentioned. She used to be an Aes Sedai, she is described as &quot;tiny&quot; and &quot;even shorter than Tuon herself&quot;. She is also &quot;pale&quot; and was found &quot;half dead with shock and fear&quot;- perhaps a result of appearing on the other side of that portal. Finally she also has dark hair. So a short, pale, dark haired Aes Sedai appearing out of nowhere, i think we may have found Moiraine already.


created: 2003-12-23 02:06:30
subject: <b>Oops, I forgot a tidbit..</b>
body:
I forgot a tidbit. I think Lanfear was rescued by Slayer. <br /><br />Also, I read the theory that she cheated the foxes in the past and got her wished taken back (being the strongest female/channeler in the world being one of them).<br /><br />


created: 2004-01-07 17:42:44
subject: <b>Why...</b>
body:
if she wasn't coming back would RJ write a whole novel/prequel about her after she is dead in the series?  Especially when we all are awaiting the arrival of the 11th book it's just wrong if there isn't more needed of the character in the rest of the series.


created: 2004-02-23 01:45:22
subject: <b>Re: Maybe she is already back - by Alex_11</b>
body:
I like your theory. I wondered about the time frame though. <br />So I checked the book(WH pg.324-325).<br />The exanct quote is: Pg.324 - &quot;Tiny Mylen, shorter even than Tuon herself. Mylen was Tuon's special pride among the six.&quot;<br />Pg.325 - &quot;Mylen was the proof of that. The pale little damane had been half-dead with shock and fear, refusing to eat or drink, when Tuon bought her on the docks at Shon Kifar. The der'sul'dam all had despaired, saying she would not live long, but now Mylen smiled up at Tuon and leaned forward to kiss her hand before she even reached to stroke the damane's dark hair. Once skin and bones, she was becoming a trifle plump.&quot;<br /><br />Like I said before. I was wondering about the time frame. How long had it been from the time Moiraine and Lanfear went through the ter'angreal and Tuon bought Mylen?<br /><br />After reading the part about her being &quot;skin and bones&quot; and becoming &quot;a trifle plump&quot; I thought your theory could be right. I think the timing is right.<br />If Moiraine had been captured she would have resisted for as long as possible. I don't think she would have lasted more than a few weeks. Egwene had been leashed only a few weeks and she was coming close to giving up.<br /><br />I like this theory.<br />I am interested to know if anyone else has any ideas to support this theory.<br /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perplexed.gif" border="0" />Why do cows moo?<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perplexed.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perplexed.gif" border="0" />Why do cows moo?<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perplexed.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Thats one <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/crazy.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />All <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/clown.gif" border="0" />s must die</font><p></p>


created: 2004-06-27 11:05:19
subject: <b>moraine isn't dead</b>
body:
moraine fell through the ter'angreal but there is no body so we dont know for absaloute certain she is dead<br /><br />in fact its almost certain that shes not because Min says without her Rand will 'almost certainly fail.' It seems unlikly that she is therefore dead, it would put things to badly for the light. <br /><br />also Egwene has her dream about Thom reaching his hand into a fire and drawing out her blue stone. thats a symbol of what she is and suggests that Thom will go in serch and find her. this is supported by the way he seems to think about her a lot.<br /><br />if she does come out stilled it really doesn't matter because stilling can be healed. i dont think that she will be any weaker either if she is healed by a man rather than a woman. <br /><br />it seems to be that you can only properly heal those of the oppisite sex, so as long as an asha'man does it she is alright


created: 2004-07-22 12:59:07
subject: <b>I personaly think</b>
body:
that she is dead, but she will be back, how often were we told that stilling could not be healed? Havent we been beat over the head about how death can not be healed also? I mean Rand almost healed death, he just could not get the brain to work and he did not know jack about healing.<br /><br />I beleave that Thom, and maybe others, will go to finn land with the tower of genjin(i know, its worng) and find her body, bring it back for a proper burial, and Nyn or the guy that healed rand's knife wound (cant remember his name) will heal death.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">There can be only one, may it be <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/uno.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-08-13 04:04:40
subject: <b>How about this?</b>
body:
Moraine might be dead...but what if someone went into the Tower of Genji and asked for her to be alive again?<br /><br />


created: 2005-01-15 11:30:27
subject: <b>Re: Maybe she is already back - by Alex_11</b>
body:
I totally like this idea: Moiraine is the damane Mylen, and has been back since Winter's Heart!<br /><br />I thought so the very first time I read the series, and have been *waiting* ever since for her to be brought back into the main sequence of events.<br /><br />seiadoon_aiel:<br />Yes the timeline does fit, I checked on this great chronology website: http://www.users.bigpond.com/steven_cooper/wotchron.htm<br /><br />-Ch52 of tFoH( bk5 ) Moiraine+Lanfear go through redstone ter-angreal. This is Sep21 999NE.<br /><br />-Ch12 of tPoD( bk8 ) Cyndane (it is clear by now that she is Lanfear re-incarnated, no matter how this came about) is introduced by Moghedien to Graendal. Now she may have come back and been but in one of Shaidar Haran's mindtraps even earlier, but this is the first time Cyndane is introduced to the reader. This is Jan20 1000NE.<br /><br />-Ch14 of WH( bk9 ) Tuon visits her collection of damane including Mylen - who's description IMO fits Moiraine very well. Aes Sedai, found almost dead, short + dark hair. This is Feb17 1000NE.<br /><br />So, definitely plenty of time to get &quot;a trifle plump&quot; if we assume that she came out of Finnland straight away, say Sep22 of 999NE, or even as late as when Cyndane is definietly around Jan20 1000NE.<br /><br />


created: 2005-04-02 19:21:44
subject: <b>Emberle Saldana</b>
body:
I am pretty sure Moiraine is not Mylen... Read the FAQ on wether or not Moiraune survived. When Mat saw Mylen, I think he would have recognised her if it was Moiraine.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perplexed.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smackhead.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /> LLT <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-07-17 15:01:52
subject: <b>Look at the obvious</b>
body:
You say that the connection of Lan to Moriane was severed. Look at it this way, Moriane has been transported to an alternate state of reality. In that alternate dimension, it is forbidden to use the OP. We can safely say that, since the bond is made using the OP, it would not exist. Some might argue that the bond existed after Moriane went through the portal the first time. However, look at it this way. If channeling is forbidden, it might also be true that this alternate reality &quot;attacks&quot; anything made by the power. If this is true, it would take some time, surely more than anyone has spent in the alternate dimension to this point in time. <br />Also, Lanfear was brought back to life.<br />...back to life...Oh, I know. That infers that she was DEAD. This could mean two things. Lanfear and Moriane might have both died, or Moriane killed Lanfear. If the latter is the case, it is possible that Moriane might still be alive.


created: 2005-09-06 06:36:40
subject: <b>Great try but.....</b>
body:
You know, as much as your argument is valid there is a lot of evidence against it too. A lot more than your theory. I personally hope she's coming back and I think she might. All the wonderfull people who put up the comments provide more than enough evidence. Besides IMO she is required, all the main characters still survive, and why should Moiriane leave the scene?<br /><br />But you never know, so I can't say for sure.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Mightiest <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2006-09-26 16:44:26
subject: <b>Re:Maybe She Is Already Back</b>
body:
I think that that is a good theory as well, and i have a thought about how se could get out of the doorway, becuase we know that there where 2 doorways until one got destroyed. What if there was another made, and it was on the Seachan island? That would explain why she was bought at the docks, and the only place she would want to go would be bakc over the Artyth ocean. As for her bond with Lan, she could have masked it and then when she was collared by the sul'dam the adam broke the bond, becuase the Aes Sedai that have been collared have never been heard from again, and I remeber specifcly someone talking about an Aes Sedai that had be sheilded and then captured by the Seachan and her warder died, maybe it was because of the bond being broken, just and idea.


created: 2007-07-20 13:09:24
subject: <b>bad theory</b>
body:
What good to tell him he would almost certainly fail without a woman who was dead and gone?&quot; (ACOS, Chapter 35, &#8220;Into the Woods&#8221;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />.<br />- Min doesn't know for certain that Moiraine is dead, she THINKS that.<br /><br />2. Her bond with Lan was severed.There are four possible explanations for that which I've seen posted:<br /><br />A) She died<br />B) She was stilled while going through the Doorway.<br />C) Because of the great distance between Finnland and Lan<br />D) Moiraine somehow unbonded Lan instantly<br /><br />The first option is much more probable IMO, because it would've been quite a coincidence to have Moiraine stilled at that very moment when she was fighting Lanfear. Lanfear wouldn't try to still her; she would kill her immediately in her anger IMO.<br /><br />The other possibility - that Moiraine somehow instantly unbonded Lan while going through the Doorway. Even if someone can prove that such an instant unbonding is possible (which hasn't been done so far, according to my searches through the archives), why on Earth would Moiraine waste time and effort on such thing in this very moment<br />-If you read before this moment, Mioraine set her bond to pass to Myrelle once she died, if thats possible she could easily have set it to pass once she went through the doorway.<br /><br />3. The biggest reason of course is that we've had 5 books since that incident at the docks and still there's no sign of Moiraine coming back and especially of someone rescuing her. How many more books without her coming back are needed to convince you?<br />-Mat, Noal, and Thom are starting out a the end of the newest book. And since they go to the Finns world. Lets assume Moiraine is dead? The (eelfinn?) the ones that give you wishes, could most likely revive moiraine if they can give Mat memories of past lives they most certainly can revive moiraine. Egwenes dream of Thom pulling the blue stone from a fire. Thom will be the one to save Moiraine but he will suffer the cost, thus him reaching into a fire. Just as Mat suffered for: the memories, the spear, and the amulet. As for the almost useless comment about Moiraine knowing her husband, she didn't know for sure, it was by her perception of the fact.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> Shara is actually inhabited by bannanas <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /> The Band of the Red Hand is made of Ninjas like Mat<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /><br />Narg+Bela= Nela!<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/w00t.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /> ;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bela.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-09 12:03:26
subject: <b>Circumstantial at best...</b>
body:
This idea has already been discussed alot, so we'll discuss it again...<br /><br /><i>Karede moved two bronze map-weights shaped like lions and let the map of Tar Valon roll up on itself. The other had not been unrolled, yet. - (CoT, ch.4, p.156)</i><br /><br />You suggested the second map was of the Black Tower.  That's a near impossibility.  There's been no way for them to know where it is, and pretty much impossible to get a map of its setup.  The second map is probably a second map of Tar Valon.  One would be the area around Tar Valon (large radius map to plan contingencies and supply routes) while one would be just the city to plan how to defeat any defenses.<br /><br /><i>High overhead flew a long-winged bird of some sort. An eagle, perhaps; birds were not her strong point. Plants and minerals stayed in one place while you studied them, and so did books and manuscripts, though those might crumble under her fingers, if they were old enough. She could barely make the bird out at that height, in any case, but an eagle fit the landscape. (CoT, p. 31)<br /><br />The White Tower stood out in the darkness, windows alight, the great mass shining beneath the moon. Something flashed across the moon, and her breath caught. For an instant, she thought it had been a Draghkar, an evil sight on this of all nights. Only a bat, she decided. &#8211; Egwene (CoT, ch.30, p.677) </i><br /><br />I agree that this is pretty much a raken, prolly the same one.  Likely the raken seen flying over the BT was headed to the WT as a scout.  BTW, it is very likely that Egwene has seen a raken since she was a damane for quite a while (a couple months I believe).  The raken flying high overhead means they weren't interested in what was below them (especially if its seen as high for an eagle) because the rider would not be able to make anything out.  Another hint they don't know the BT is there.<br /><br /><i>A successful strike at their most vital area would cut to the heart of Rand&#8217;s power and give the Seanchan free access to the North and the East he has tied together.<br /></i><br /><br />Yes it would.  However the Seanchan are more afraid of an AS weapon that could destroy a city at the moment.  They know the Asha'man are dangerous to them on a 1 on 1 basis, but are probably confident that numbers favoring the sul'dam and damane could overcome that.  (another reason to go to the WT, get more damane and increase the odds).  They probably do plan on eventually finding and destroying the Asha'man, but they plan on the WT first and there is probably not enough time left in the series to do both.<br /><br />I get the impression that Rand getting captured by the Seanchan is what is going to spark the BT internal strife (which has been building since it was founded).  Logically it makes more sense for it to be an internal battle and split.  RJ has been clearly defining the power struggle within the ranks of Asha'man and I can't see him dropping it like that.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Fyatuk Loth<br />Pope Consort to Grand Mistress Krista Sedai<br />Minister to the Way of What<br />Warder to Egwene Dreamwalker (donate WSe please)<br /><br />Currently stalking Belals Girl.<br /><br />WTF?</font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-09 12:04:19
subject: <b>Hey look at that, took me a while to write that and still first...</b>
body:
first time I was first...  dumb luck<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Fyatuk Loth<br />Pope Consort to Grand Mistress Krista Sedai<br />Minister to the Way of What<br />Warder to Egwene Dreamwalker (donate WSe please)<br /><br />Currently stalking Belals Girl.<br /><br />WTF?</font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-09 12:39:10
subject: <b>good theory</b>
body:
but the part about the seanchan army getting stronger after each victory is inaccurate,aes sedia cannot use the power as a weapon and would be useless in war.A nit pick i know but definatley ONE possibility.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Sorry. Can't stand reflexive used as a subject.&quot;<br /><br />Funniest thing me and my mates have ever heard/seen.<br /><br />No one would set up a firing squad just to give people a job</font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-09 12:47:52
subject: <b>I agree with you</b>
body:
Shooganooga: good theory, well deduced. I like the evidence of the second map.<br /><br />In response to Fyatuk: I disagree with all your points.<br /><br />Re map:<br /><br />1. While it may not be a map of the Black Tower, it may well be a map of that part of Andor.<br /><br />2. If it was a second map of Tar Valon, why would there be a need for RJ to draw such attention to it, and not say what it was of?<br /><br />Re raken:<br /><br />Huh? If a high-flying raken at the WT means they ARE interested, why is does a high-flying raken at the BT mean they are NOT interested?<br /><br />And I think that there were no raken in the first (Falme) attempt at the Corenne. I only recall grolm at that stage, and possibly s'redit. I might be wrong.<br /><br />Re your final point:<br /><br />I cannot think of anything more likely to make the Ashaman (apart from Taim's coterie of 20-30 per CoT) attack the Seanchan than that the latter kidnap Rand and hold him with the black collar ter'angreal. Though whether it will happen at the BT or not I don't know - probably not if this is the cause.


created: 2003-07-09 12:48:29
subject: <b>Interesting</b>
body:
Especially if Logain seizes control of the Black Tower during the struggle. Maybe Taim will be killed, or revealed as the Darkfriend scum he is.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br /><i>I will try. Before surrendering to dreams or death, I will try.<font color="black"></font></i></font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-09 13:05:29
subject: <b>Jordanian</b>
body:
<i>1. While it may not be a map of the Black Tower, it may well be a map of that part of Andor.<br />2. If it was a second map of Tar Valon, why would there be a need for RJ to draw such attention to it, and not say what it was of? </i><br /><br />They would still need to know where the BT was to be interested in that part.  It could be a map of Andor anyway though as they already have an interest there and they lost their easy way when Morgase escaped.<br /><br />He didn't draw attention to it.  He mentioned the Karede rolled one up and the other one was already rolled.  To me that meant Karede was worried about other people seeing either and remembered the other one was rolled (the scene was from Karede PoV I think).  I never got the impression that RJ was drawing undue attention to it.<br /><br /><i>Huh? If a high-flying raken at the WT means they ARE interested, why is does a high-flying raken at the BT mean they are NOT interested?<br />And I think that there were no raken in the first (Falme) attempt at the Corenne. I only recall grolm at that stage, and possibly s'redit. I might be wrong. </i><br /><br />Because it was night at the WT and it could go lower without getting identified.  The BT is basically along the path from Ebou Dar to the WT.  It flying over the BT could easily be its normal travel path.  And at that height they could not be scouting unless they had lenses better than the Carhenien makes.<br /><br />There were no raken (or s'redit) mentioned in Falme, just the 'olm's, but that doesn't mean they weren't there.  I think they raken were always in intregal part of the Corenne though, so why wouldn't they be at the first landing site.  I meant that there is a chance Egwene would recognize one at a close enough range (which whatever it was was not at close range).  I didn't want Egwene completely included in the &quot;could not recognize raken&quot; club.<br /><br /><i>Re your final point:<br />I cannot think of anything more likely to make the Ashaman (apart from Taim's coterie of 20-30 per CoT) attack the Seanchan than that the latter kidnap Rand and hold him with the black collar ter'angreal. Though whether it will happen at the BT or not I don't know - probably not if this is the cause.  </i><br /><br />Exactly.  If the Asha'man attack the Seanchan, then the BT won't be rent in Fire and blood, somewhere else would, therefore it's likely another event that would hurt the BT.<br /><br />I personally think Rand's capture will spark a BT civil war which Logain will lose (most of those not part of either clique would probably side with Taim until they figured out what started it).  But that's another of my intricately far-fetched theories (actually submitted it at the behest of Cazzar).<br /><br />The point is, the Seanchan are not likely to attack the BT, they are more likely to be attacked by the Asha'man.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Fyatuk Loth<br />Pope Consort to Grand Mistress Krista Sedai<br />Minister to the Way of What<br />Warder to Egwene Dreamwalker (donate WSe please)<br /><br />Currently stalking Belals Girl.<br /><br />WTF?</font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-09 14:03:55
subject: <b>Hmmm... stuff to think on</b>
body:
I like the theory.  I also agree with some of Fyatuk's points.  <br /><br />Just wanted to say that it was an interesting theory and I enjoyed reading it.  I could honestly see it going either way so I won't chime in with a definite opinion.  <br /><br />But, I will say that I think there is A LOT to be resolved in just 2 more books (supposedly anyway) and adding in a BT/Seanchan battle on top of a WT/Seanchan battle seems to just really be overkill.  If the Seanchan lose at one they will probably be too weak to take on the other (at least for a bit).  So, I kind of am leaning towards &quot;not very likely but would make a good plot twist!&quot;<br /><br />I have to agree with Fyatuk (sp?) that the Logain/Taim battle will be the moment that the &quot;Rent in blood&quot; aspect takes place.  Or possibly when Rand is captured.  But this just brings in too many plot elements to be tidied up in just 2 more books.  <br /><br />Thanks for the theory.


created: 2003-07-09 15:41:47
subject: <b>Well it's much speculation</b>
body:
It could be that the Seanchan know of the BT. <br />Maybe even Suroth learned it from a Forsaken (e.g. Semirhage) and told their Generals about the threat.<br /><br />So it's possible that the Seanchan consider an attack. <br /><br />But one thing is clear, an attack on the BT is not comparable to an attack on Tar Valon. <br />The BT is in the woods, it will be very difficult for an army to strike there. <br />Also Sul'dam &amp; Damane are of course much more effective in a battle against female channelers since they see what they do with the OP and can capture them with the a'dam. In a battle against male channelers they can just try to kill them. <br />And they have to kill every male channeler. It's more difficult.<br /><br />Such a battle is probably even for the Seanchan too risky. <br />Especially if other big armies are very close in this area: several thousend Aiel, Saldaean and of course at least 20.000 men of the Legion of the Dragon, not to mention the armies which besiege Caemlyn.<br /><br />I believe the Seanchan will attack the WT in the next book. They will win the battle. <br /><br />But maybe at this time Rand, Mat and Perrin, all three already use their ta'veren which finally results in Rand becoming the leader of the Seanchan. The Seanchan will follow Rand. <br />Perhaps Rand will order the Seanchan so that Egwene becomes Amyrlin. <br /><br />Then or before that Logain will lead some Asha'man with some of the sisters to an attack on Taim and his faction at the BT. <br />The Asha'man at the BT will have to decide which side they join, Logain's or Taim's. <br /><br />I think most of the Soldiers and Dedicated will follow Logain, and finally, after a nice, bloody OP battle, Taim and his men will be forced to flee from the BT (we will see them again at TG as Dreadlords, Taim as a new Chosen..). <br /><br />So I think it will be rather a raid from a little group under Logain's leadership than an attack from a big Seanchan army on the BT.<br /><br />Another reason is that in particular the Asha'man and also the Seanchan will be needed to fight the Shadow's armies at TG. <br />So I don't expect that RJ let one side destroy the other in such a battle at the BT.<br /><br />But that's really a RAFO. <br />In my opinion it depends on how the battle at Tar Valon ends and how the three ta'veren plots with the Seanchan develop. <br /><br />It's an interesting topic to discuss about!


created: 2003-07-10 03:03:09
subject: <b>Just to address some points</b>
body:
1. The Seanchan don't know where the black tower is.<br /><br />Don't forget the listeners. These are everyday looking people whose job is to listen to the conversations of others and report anything of use to the Seanchan. The whole land is a buzz with Rands amnesty and the gathering of men who can channel somewhere in Andor. I think it is incredibly naive to think the Seanchan haven't come across these stories also. Even if they don't know specifics, all they need to do is discover it's somewhere near Caemlyn and their scouts can do the rest. Even looking at night the Black Tower would be fairly easy to spot (It's the place where things keep exploding)<br /><br />2. Egwene knows what a raken looks like, because she was a damane in Falme.<br /><br />Incorrect. There were no raken with the Halienne. They only appeared with the corenne. The first appearance of a raken is in book 8.<br /><br />3. This isn't really related to the theory, but I don't see how Rands capture by the Seanchan would start an internal battle in the Black Tower. If anything they would be united against a common threat, and failing that, those loyal to Rand would be off trying to free him giving Taims faction a free rein.<br /><br />4. A raken flying high enough to appear the size of a bird wouldn't be able to glean any info/the black tower is in the forrest.<br /><br />There is a wall around the Black Tower grounds that encompasses some forrested areas, but the tower itself is in a cleared area. A high flying Raken would be able to tell faces, obviously, but it would be able to discern the different buildings and how often and what times they are frequented. Thus it could tell the barracks from the mess hall etc.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;I can express more emotion than laughter, anger and let's . . .&quot;<br /><br />Shooganooga<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-10 03:37:49
subject: <b>Yes!</b>
body:
This was great on the message board, so I'm glad it is now on the theory post. I thought this theory really has a great insight - RJ wouldn't have mentioned the second map so blatently if they hadn't had another important plan we will hear about soon.<br /><br />Plus, at the end of CoT, where Rand is discussing an alliance, he specifically said that the Seachan are very very good at learning from their mistakes. They were whipped by the Black Tower - the best move would be to strike into its heart and destroy (or if Suroth has give the male a'dam to one of her damane that can produce female a'dam to copy it) or harness its power. I was so impressed by what they could do if they collared Rand I never even considered they might try and collar the whole Black Tower!<br /><br />PS of course they would know where the Black Tower is, they have fantastic spies to fly over (eg the raken), plus they have free trade with merchants who would feed them such (now) commonly known information, and listeners to listen in on conversations (eg hey I'm making a great profit with these guys who cut through air to buy turnips).<br /><br />Well done!


created: 2003-07-10 06:45:17
subject: <b>No raken at Falme?</b>
body:
Read the account of the battle with the Horn.  As I recall raken are described hovering over the battlefield.  Furthermore, Elayne and Nynaeve recognize raken over Ebou Dar and know they are Seanchan.  They might have learned the name from Cerandin, but a description so good, they immediately recognize them and know they are Seanchan?  I doubt they got that much from a woman prejudiced in favor of elephants.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-10 08:37:12
subject: <b>Raken would be recognised...</b>
body:
and, undoubtably, immediately attacked. Don't forget a lot of Asha'man have seen them during the Illian battles, and the rest probably got a fairly good description. The raken should come fairly close (less then a mile) to make out even the outlines of the place. After all, they don't have much in way of binoculars in Randland (Gawyn has one but it's not comparable to the ones we'd use in everyday life), and I don't think the Seanchan are ever mentioned as using them. So if a raken is close enough to make anything out, it will also be close enough to be spotted by an Asha'man sentry, especially with Power-enhanced eyes. It would also take hours to make a map since everything has to be drawn at the spot, they don't have cameras in Randland. Since we know Rands reach with the One Power is roughly three miles, most asha'man would be able to take out a raken at a distance of about one mile. I think this is sufficient to show it's impossible for the Seanchan to have a map of the Black tower, even if they'd know where it is which is by no means proven. Any raken scouts would be found out and killed. I also think it's impossible for them to get in any normal scouts, the community is too small and too well protected for that, even if a spy managed to come in he would be found out.<br /><br />I should think it most likely it was merely a second map of the WT, and for other options: from a Seanchan point of view it would make much more sense to attach one of Rand's other power bases. The last time the Seanchan faced the Asha'man they suffered what seems to be their biggest defeat ever. They wouldn't be stupid enough to try again without mayor reinforcements. I think they might try to attack Tear. Considering the Prophecies, it would be a slap in Rand's face, and much easier accomplished. No channelers in the Stone, not much in way of troops either, maps would be available, easy to get in for an air force and as a bonus a chance to get back at the Seafolk (finding out their location would be much easier then finding out where the BT is)


created: 2003-07-10 08:39:58
subject: <b>Shooganooga</b>
body:
<i>Don't forget the listeners. These are everyday looking people whose job is to listen to the conversations of others and report anything of use to the Seanchan. The whole land is a buzz with Rands amnesty and the gathering of men who can channel somewhere in Andor. I think it is incredibly naive to think the Seanchan haven't come across these stories also. Even if they don't know specifics, all they need to do is discover it's somewhere near Caemlyn and their scouts can do the rest. Even looking at night the Black Tower would be fairly easy to spot (It's the place where things keep exploding)<br /></i><br /><br />You are correct here.  They would have a general idea where the BT is at least. <br /><br /><i>Incorrect. There were no raken with the Halienne. They only appeared with the corenne. The first appearance of a raken is in book 8.</i><br /><br />See Cannoli's post above.<br /><br /><i>3. This isn't really related to the theory, but I don't see how Rands capture by the Seanchan would start an internal battle in the Black Tower. If anything they would be united against a common threat, and failing that, those loyal to Rand would be off trying to free him giving Taims faction a free rein.&lt;I&gt;<br /><br />We know Taim want's Rand out of the way and we know Logain would want to rescue Rand.  Logain would need to pull re-inforcements from the BT which Taim would not allow.  It rather makes perfect sense to me...<br /><br />&lt;I&gt;There is a wall around the Black Tower grounds that encompasses some forrested areas, but the tower itself is in a cleared area. A high flying Raken would be able to tell faces, obviously, but it would be able to discern the different buildings and how often and what times they are frequented. Thus it could tell the barracks from the mess hall etc.</i><br /><br />A raken flying high enough to appear a high flying eagle would be several miles up.  You would not even be able to discern people at that distance without an excellent spyglass (on par with the Carheinien guy's would prolly let you see them as lumps moving, which might be enough).<br />Plus a bird circling for hours to watch like that is sure to be commented on in these strange times (someone would mistake it for a raven or something) but that one mention is all we have.  At night you wouldn't be able to see.  There's not much chance they could have gathered enough information to risk an assault (and has been pointed out there are known masses of around 300-400k troups in the area, and that doesn't really include the borderlander army).<br /><br /><b> Adrian:</b><br /><i>Plus, at the end of CoT, where Rand is discussing an alliance, he specifically said that the Seachan are very very good at learning from their mistakes. They were whipped by the Black Tower - the best move would be to strike into its heart and destroy (or if Suroth has give the male a'dam to one of her damane that can produce female a'dam to copy it) or harness its power. I was so impressed by what they could do if they collared Rand I never even considered they might try and collar the whole Black Tower!</i><br /><br />The seanchan learned an Asha'man is better than a damane (the seanchan lost more damane then Rand did Asha'man).  <br /><br />That means they need to have more damane around than there would be Asha'man.  They wouldn't risk an assault until they knew they could win (which means they want more detailed numbers on Asha'man) because damane are very valuable and why it is the &quot;Ever Victorious Army&quot;.<br /><br />And they can't collar the whole BT, there is only one adam that work's on men and I doubt Suroth &amp; Anath would let it out of their posession to be sent back to Seandar to be studied and copied.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Fyatuk Loth<br />Pope Consort to Grand Mistress Krista Sedai<br />Minister to the Way of What<br />Warder to Egwene Dreamwalker (donate WSe please)<br /><br />Currently stalking Belals Girl.<br /><br />WTF?</font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-10 11:48:30
subject: <b>Let's settle the question!</b>
body:
Shooganooga states with certainty that Egwene did not see raken at Falme. They did not appear until book 8. I beg to differ. &quot;The Great Hunt&quot;, chp. 42, pg.500. Nynaeve POV...<br />&quot;She could not become used to to seeing people riding things that looked like bronze-scaled, tailless cats, and a rider on one of those flying beasts was always enough to make her feel dizzy;...&quot;. Again on pg. 551, &quot;Geofram Bornhoald eyed the lighting flashing over Falme and dismissed it from his mind. Some huge flying creature-one of the Seanchan monsters, no doubt-flew wildly to escape the bolts.&quot;<br />I hope this settles the question fo whether or not Egwene would have recognized a 'raken' for what it was. <br />I'm sure she would have if she weren't so egocentric.<br />Anyway people please check your references before posting. It will irrate fewer people and not make you look like you haven't paid attention when reading the books. <br />God, it's irrating to read people say &quot;I haven't read the books in awhile and I don't have them with me right now but I think I remember...&quot;


created: 2003-07-10 12:12:43
subject: <b>combe</b>
body:
Thanks for proving she did see them.  But you shouldn't complain too much about people not double checking the sources.  I don't have interent access at home, so I log on at work.  I don't have access to the sources.  If I logged on from home, I would double check.<br /><br />I try and only say things I'm sure about, but even then I occassionally misread or misremember things.  That's why other people are more than happy to correct you.  Most people enjoy seeing someone mess something up (everyone's a little sadistic at heart).<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Fyatuk Loth<br />Pope Consort to Grand Mistress Krista Sedai<br />Minister to the Way of What<br />Warder to Egwene Dreamwalker (donate WSe please)<br /><br />Currently stalking Belals Girl.<br /><br />WTF?</font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-10 16:23:24
subject: <b>I disagree</b>
body:
The theory is well written and argued, I just disagree.  Starting with the original fortelling:<br /><br />The Black Tower will be rent in blood and fire, and sisters will walk its ground. This I Foretell. - Elaida, (aCoS, prologue, p.18 )<br /><br />Elaida says 'sisters' will walk its ground.  Yes, there are a few collared sisters, but as has been said, these would be worthless in battle.  I do not think the rest of the damane would count as sisters.<br /><br />Looking at the quotes about the 'bird' sightings.<br />From Gabrelle's PoV we get this:<br /><br />High overhead flew a long-winged bird of some sort. An eagle, perhaps; birds were not her strong point. Plants and minerals stayed in one place while you studied them, and so did books and manuscripts, though those might crumble under her fingers, if they were old enough. She could barely make the bird out at that height, in any case, but an eagle fit the landscape. (CoT, p. 31)<br />-----------<br />A raken is big enough to cary a man, for it to be so high as to appear as an eagle would probably put it very high indeed, say several thousand feet?  Think about it, the thing is the size of a small horse and she can barely make it out. That sounds like a very uncomfortable height in the middle of winter to be flying in the open.  I think she is actually seeing an eagle.<br />------------<br />Now compare it with a scene at the end of the book, outside the White Tower:<br /><br />The White Tower stood out in the darkness, windows alight, the great mass shining beneath the moon. Something flashed across the moon, and her breath caught. For an instant, she thought it had been a Draghkar, an evil sight on this of all nights. Only a bat, she decided. &#8211; Egwene (CoT, ch.30, p.677) <br />--------<br />This is more likely a raken.  A Draghkar is taller than a man, so it is on a similar scale as a raken.  Plus, it was night.  However, once again, the thing must be pretty high up to be seen as a bat.  But a bat only flights around 30+ ft, so maybe this is possible.  I am not totally convinced about the theory that she sees a raken, but it is possible.<br /><br />Still, a good well researched theory, I just disagree.  I do think it would be interesting to see.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">May you be successful  in all your projects.<br /><br />I am a pastafarion.  The Flying Spaghetti Monster created the universe, and no one in Kansas can prove me wrong.<br /><br />http://www.vengaza.org</font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-10 18:31:44
subject: <b>Comments unchecked - so sue me</b>
body:
Thank you Fyatuk, I agree with you. And additionally, it would be a) boring, and b) lead to long delays in discussion if we had to check the minutiae of everything before joining in the discussion.<br /><br />If occasionally one doesn't check everything but says e.g. I don't recall raken, it is very clear that is not a definite statement, and open to Combe or others to correct us. That's fine. We do that in conversation, e.g.:<br /><br />&quot;I think I recall seeing a koorhaan in Botswana&quot;<br />&quot;No, that was in South Africa&quot;<br />&quot;Oh yes, that's right.&quot;<br /><br />It's part of what makes conversation enjoyable (to most of us, not Combe evidently).<br /><br />Sometimes I check things, sometimes not - deal with it.


created: 2003-07-10 18:40:40
subject: <b>bme</b>
body:
Your points are mistaken I think.<br /><br />1. &quot;sisters will walk it's grounds&quot; doesn't necessarily mean &quot;lots&quot; (e.g. 300) - it could mean 50 (the number of captured sisters), which is not &quot;a few&quot;. There is nothing in the foretelling about the sisters fighting (though they might).<br /><br />Damane incidentally would not be &quot;sisters&quot; to Elaida, and they would (probably) fight.<br /><br />2. If a raken appeared as an eagle (big bird) at the BT and a bat (considerably smaller mammal) at the WT, logically it would have to be higher at the WT than the BT.<br /><br />And it is perfectly possible that on a dark (countryside, no lampposts!), but moonlit night a raken at e.g. 1000 feet might look similar to a bat at 30 feet.


created: 2003-07-11 02:44:16
subject: <b>the WT</b>
body:
Reading all of this I had a thought. If the Seanchan do attack the WT will it be enough to bring the split together? Perhaps Elaida will deny the whole thing is happening like she does anything she doesnt like, and Edgwene will be invaluble because of her knowlege of the Seanchan and some of the tower sisters will &quot;change over&quot; and an eventually Elaida will be deposed. Any thoughts?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-11 05:08:32
subject: <b>I just need to say disagree with something</b>
body:
Egwene has actually seen <i>raken</i> and other Seanchan exotics. Remember her experience as a <i>damane</i>? <br /><br />Other than that, good!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-11 08:06:25
subject: <b>I like it!</b>
body:
I'll have to admit I was disappointed when we didn't get the big battle at the BT. Instead, we got Logain riding a horse, swooping in, snatching a Sister and kissing her. Pretty much a big let-down for me. <br /><br /> So, we now have the sisters walking the grounds of the BT. All we need is the &quot;rent in blood and fire&quot; part. If the Seanchan don't provide it, it will be an internal battle, which is just as likely. <br /><br /> The AS couldn't do it that way because of the 3 oaths. I believe Elaida's plan was to shield'em, gentle'em, and hang'em. Hanging lets them off the hook of using the OP as a weapon, while leaving no one as witnesses.<br /><br /> I think you made a good catch here. Jordan normally doesn't put in little things like a bird flying overhead, without it raising my suspicion.<br /><br /> Just like here in the USA, it seems Big Brother or someone is watching. <br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-11 13:33:03
subject: <b>My thoughts... I agree that the BT is a target.</b>
body:
I started reading comments but there were too many of them dealing with flying lizards.<br /><br />To p hart:<br />Wouldn't the AS in the WT be able to use the OP as a means of defense against those trying to harm them and their sisters? They don't know Suroth is a DF yet, but they sure as sugar know that there are attackers outside their walls trying to leash/hurt/kill them.  The oath doesn't prevent them from <i>ever</i> using the OP as a weapon, only (as far as I can tell) as an weapon against men when her life or that of her Warder or one of her sisters' is not in danger.  Yes?  I can't see them sniffing and fretting to each other and not doing a darn thing while damane and sul'dam kick the horse pucky out the Tower.  Sorry.  I can see them doing every and anything in their power to protect themselves and the WT in general.  Elaida isn't the brightest bulb on the tree this year when it comes to being blinded by her own power, but I'd like to think that she would at least be smart enough to defend the Tower, especially with the triptych of Bonwhinn in her study.  Then you need to consider the BA still in the Tower working with Suroth...  And yet I digress...sorry for that rambling.<br /><br />Another point about the AS defending themselves with the OP-<br />Eggy hasn't held the Oath Rod yet, so it may be a different story entirely <i>if</i> she's Amyrlin by the time RJ gets around to the Seanchan attacking TV.  See where I'm going?  She staunchly believes that she and all AS should hold the Oath Rod, on the other hand, her hatred of the Seanchan is bone deep.  She'd do pretty much anything I think to rid the WT of the threat short of balefire.  She was leashed and she would never go back to that again.  Ever.  Obviously, this is all in assuming that she'll be in the WT willfully and not as a captive, as we last saw her.  <br /><br />So, I agree that they will try to attack the BT.  The Asha'men will hopefully kill the majority of them in a battle royale a la Dumais Wells.  Taim could pull a nasty Darkfriend trick, however and betray the BT to the Seanchan?  Rand will be set free by Tuon after being leashed by Suroth.  Maybe.<br /><br />And is it really that big a deal if Eggy does/not remember what flying creatures she encountered as her time as a damane?   The Listeners are more than competent enough to figure out where the BT is with Rand's amnesty out and circulating.  <br /><br />*exhales* sorry bout all that rambling incoherent writing.  <br />just my two cents.<br /><br />*penny penny*<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">mapthis: pez supplier to the stars<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-11 14:22:07
subject: <b>History + danger</b>
body:
The Seanchan are not going to attack the BT until they know it's worth the cost.  Last time they fought the Ashaman they lost a lot of damane and suldam, and both of those are keys to the ever victorious army.  AS so far have not put up much of a fight (there hasn't been many where they have gone) so the seanchan are fairly confident against AS, while frightened of the AM.<br /><br />The AS revealed a &quot;weapon&quot; that could destroy an entire city.  If one of your enemies has a weapon capable of completely destroying another of your enemies, and the one that has the weapon is the one you are more confident against, which would you attack?<br /><br />Most people would go get the weapon and then use the weapon against the others.  the WT is the target.  It makes no sense to lose as many damane as the seanchan know they would lose against the BT and then still leave the WT there because you no longer have the forces to get it.  At least with the WT you can replenish what you lost (the seanchan still doubt the strength of the 3 oaths).<br /><br />The BT is too much of an illogical target.  Too high a cost for not enough gain.  At least not when compared to the WT (with what the Seanchan believe about the WT).<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Fyatuk Loth<br />Pope Consort to Grand Mistress Krista Sedai<br />Minister to the Way of What<br />Warder to Egwene Dreamwalker (donate WSe please)<br /><br />Currently stalking Belals Girl.<br /><br />WTF?</font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-11 19:23:47
subject: <b>Bats and eagles</b>
body:
A big bat is the same size as a small eagle. Depends on the species. Plus they have cats with six toes, so who knows?


created: 2003-07-11 19:26:06
subject: <b>Oh, I forgot...</b>
body:
...it would be illogical for the Seanchan to NOT attack the Black Tower. Why leave your most powerful enemies free to attack you? Especially if Suroth has a damane able to copy the male a'dam with her (which she most likely does, as a source for all the new collars they need for the Aes Sedi), so they have a decent chance. And the one thing we know the Seanchan believe in is surprise.


created: 2003-07-11 21:12:49
subject: <b>Yo Adrian</b>
body:
I did not think of that! Here everyone is making a big ol fuss cos Elayne has learned to make ter-angreal, and the bloody Seanchan have been doing it for how long?? Makes you wonder what else they know that we dont!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-12 02:12:38
subject: <b>I question your definition of rent</b>
body:
Rent has two defintions. One has to do with lending money (I doubt that is the right one) and the other has to do with a split. Dictionary.com - A breach of relations between persons or groups; a rift. Now I could easily see the Seanchan wanting to destroy the BT but I cannot see how that would cause a &quot;rent&quot; and therefore I must disagree with your theory.<br /><br />The other problem is that attacking the BT would be suicide. The asha'man can travel but the Seanchan can't meaning even with raken the asha'man would know about a large force with plenty of time to prepare (and home field advantage is a big advantage in war). Of course a small force would just be wiped out. Not to mention men are stronger in the power than women, asha'man can use gateways to improve fighting capability, AND they aren't limited by the restrictions caused by being chained (ie. movement restriction and the Seanchan wouldn't be able to tell an asha'man from an untrained person while the asha'man could easily pick out the damane).<br /><br />The conclusion the Seanchan would lose a BT battle meaning the BT would survive so even with a twisted definition of &quot;rent&quot; it still wouldn't fit.


created: 2003-07-14 08:58:12
subject: <b>Adrian</b>
body:
The Seanchan have had the Male Adam for what, a few months (at least that we know of, certainly no longer than a year).  Its not likely they would have nearly enough to collar all the men of the tower.  They have no idea how to fight the asha'man.  The know the asha'man have no issues killing them.  <br /><br />Why send so many forces to their doom agains the black tower? Even if they won the casualties would be enormous and weaken them considerably, to the point where they would not be able to attack the WT which we know they are planning.<br /><br />My point is they will attack the White Tower first.  By attacking the WT they gain hundreds (thousands possibly) of new damane.  They eliminate one of the major forces in this part of the world.  They prove their superiority (the WT is the only thing that has never been conquered now according to popular belief).  Plus they think they will gain a weapon of astronomical power (what blew up the Kin's farm, they believe it is a weapon).<br /><br />If they attack the BT, they will lose probably at least 1 damane for every asha'man (probably more), might not be able to destroy that force, lose many more soldiers, and prolly not gain any male damane (if they do it would be few).<br /><br />The risk/reward factor says the WT will be the first target as it has the potential of making you stronger and your enemy weaker at less of a risk.  The BT <i>might</i> make you stronger, but probably will weaken you considerably, and yes you weaken your enemy.  The WT makes more sense because after the WT you would still have the strength to go after the BT.<br /><br />I've never said the seanchan don't want to destroy the BT (of course they do) but it's not going to happen anytime soon.  They will attack the WT and train what damane they have there first.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Fyatuk Loth<br />Pope Consort to Grand Mistress Krista Sedai<br />Minister to the Way of What<br />Warder to Egwene Dreamwalker (donate WSe please)<br /><br />Currently stalking Belals Girl.<br /><br />WTF?</font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-14 23:55:29
subject: <b>Surprise</b>
body:
It is all about surprise - the Seanchan are the masters of it. If no one is expecting it, that is what they will do. Really, attacking the White Tower doesn't make sense. They know that the White Tower can't attack them (they would have interigated the captured Aes Sedi for all the info), so why not skirt around them and take over the rest of the world, slowly collaring the odd Aes Sedi that they can, before tackling the Tower?<br /><br />Really, taking on the BT makes far more sense - they know the Ash'amen are the biggest threat to their power - men channelling have been responsible for their only losses. And they know men are not bound to not attack (personal experience). They would also know how fast the BT is growing, taking it can only get faster.<br /><br />Do the Seanchan have enough male Adam? Maybe, maybe not. To a damane who has spent 200 years making adam, copying a male adam might not take much work (how quickly did Elayne pick it up?). <br /><br />Also, one of your own points works against you - you say they believe the WT has a weapon of astronomical power, then wouldn't they use your logic on the BT and say 'too hard'?<br /><br />Personally, I think you are right that the WT is first on the list, but the quotes used in this theory are fantastic, so I think the BT is going to be attacked at the same time. I'm sure the Seanchan have a good plan to counter the superior force.


created: 2003-07-15 08:29:32
subject: <b>Adrian:</b>
body:
<i>It is all about surprise - the Seanchan are the masters of it. If no one is expecting it, that is what they will do. Really, attacking the White Tower doesn't make sense. They know that the White Tower can't attack them (they would have interigated the captured Aes Sedi for all the info), so why not skirt around them and take over the rest of the world, slowly collaring the odd Aes Sedi that they can, before tackling the Tower?</i><br /><br />The Seanchan aren't sure the 3 oaths hold.  Suroth at least is very disbelieving of it, and after the explosion of the Kin's farm she probably doesn't believe it at all.  That means the WT could show up and use that weapon against the Seanchan at any time.  That makes them a huge threat (at this point actually bigger than the BT) but one that is more helpful to attack.  Plus if they have interrogated the captured AS effectively they know that only AS and not novices or accepted take the oaths.  They are confident the damane can take on AS and capture them.  By capturing AS/novices/accepted they get more damane making them stronger.  And they believe with interrogation they can get the AS weapon, with which they would be able to destroy the BT with minimal loss of life.  There are a lot of bonuses to going after the WT <b>before</b> the BT and only negatives for attacking the BT first.<br /><br /><i>Really, taking on the BT makes far more sense - they know the Ash'amen are the biggest threat to their power - men channelling have been responsible for their only losses. And they know men are not bound to not attack (personal experience). They would also know how fast the BT is growing, taking it can only get faster.</i><br /><br />They also know attacking the BT like that would decimate their forces and probably cause them to have to retreat from land they already conquered.  Why do that when there's an easier battle that will give you a weapon that can destroy the stronger foe?  It is ingrained in the seanchan that not just channelers, but people who call themselves aes sedai are the biggest threat to the world.  Remember AS ruled seanchan with an iron thumb when Hawkwings forces arrived there.  They think that AS will eventually do that again (that's why they even have a'dams).  The WT is the bigger threat and the easier battle.<br /><br /><i>Do the Seanchan have enough male Adam? Maybe, maybe not. To a damane who has spent 200 years making adam, copying a male adam might not take much work (how quickly did Elayne pick it up?). </i><br /><br />It's a different ter-angreal, even with similar purposes.  Look at the dream ter'angreal Elayne copied.  She could get the 2 that required channeling right easily, but she could not copy the stone ring correctly.  Those are closely related but she couldn't do it right.  There's no guarantee the Seanchan could even copy the male a'dam (especially if it requires Saidin to make, which would be perfectly logical).  I seriously doubt there is more than the one we know of.<br /><br /><i>Also, one of your own points works against you - you say they believe the WT has a weapon of astronomical power, then wouldn't they use your logic on the BT and say 'too hard'?</i><br /><br />Not 'too hard', too costly to go after the BT.  They have beaten AS regularly, they haven't beated asha'man.  They AS have a weapon that can destroy the asha'man.  Most logical conclusion for that is 'go get the weapon and use it to destroy the men we haven't been able to beat.'<br /><br />Seriously.  The Seanchan have to believe that if they attack the BT they will lose hundreds of damane and thousands of soldiers.  All for the gain of some male damane (possibly, if they have been able to copy it which is unlikely) which they might not even be able to train for some time.  They have no experience in &quot;training&quot; male channelers and it would take the suldam some time to figure it out.  We have no idea how the male adam really works except that eventually the man will end up with just as much control (the Seanchan probably don't know that in all fairness).  The Seanchan are smart enough that they would probably want to make sure it works before they take that risk.  It is just completely illogical to attack the BT now (at least to me).<br /><br /><i>Personally, I think you are right that the WT is first on the list, but the quotes used in this theory are fantastic, so I think the BT is going to be attacked at the same time. I'm sure the Seanchan have a good plan to counter the superior force.</i><br /><br />Simultaneous attacks are a bad idea.  If the attack both then one would have to be just a diversionary force to keep one from helping the other.  Either battle they would need most of their damane there as well as a good chunk of normal forces.<br /><br />Of course I noticed I'm repeating myself and so are the supporters of the BT theory so obviously no one is going to change their minds.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Fyatuk Loth<br />Pope Consort to Grand Mistress Krista Sedai<br />Minister to the Way of What<br />Warder to Egwene Dreamwalker (donate WSe please)<br /><br />Currently stalking Belals Girl.<br /><br />WTF?</font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-15 14:49:46
subject: <b>Just a point</b>
body:
As I was reading the theory, I saw the term decimated.  FYI, decimated means a casualty rate of one in ten.  It refers to the practice in ancient times of killing one out of every ten soldiers in a unit that had failed to advance on command in battle or had fled the field.  <br /><br />So the Asha'man likely did a hell of a lot more than &quot;decimate&quot; the Seanchan


created: 2003-07-15 18:39:07
subject: <b>RAFO?</b>
body:
&quot;The Seanchan aren't sure the 3 oaths hold. Suroth at least is very disbelieving of it, and after the explosion of the Kin's farm she probably doesn't believe it at all.&quot;<br /><br />Except of course that the new weapon would not break the three Oaths, since the Aes Sedi were being attacked at the time.<br /><br />&quot;Plus if they have interrogated the captured AS effectively they know that only AS and not novices or accepted take the oaths.&quot;<br /><br />Wait a second - which of these do you think is true?<br /><br />&quot;The WT is the bigger threat and the easier battle.&quot;<br /><br />Again two opposites. <br /><br />Sure it would be a bad idea to go after two major opponents at once, unless you think they are already in cahoots and want to stop them joining forces? Anyway, it could happen either way, and we really need to see the Seanchan meet with Rand before we will have a good idea of what will happen.


created: 2003-07-15 23:59:15
subject: <b>Reread the Great Hunt</b>
body:
If I am not mistaken Bornhald's legion is spotted heading towards Falm by a raken.  Grolm, the cat like creatures, and S'redit where there as well.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Life is a journey of sorrow and agony, the only thing keeping us going is that light at the end of the tunnel.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-16 08:00:38
subject: <b>Grolm &amp; Torm...</b>
body:
Torm are the cat-like creatures.  Grolm are the 3-eyed frogs (Rand came across them in the portal stone world with Hurin, Loial, and Lanfear).<br /><br />At least unless my memories fuzzy.  I'm fairly certain that grolm are the frogs though.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Fyatuk Loth<br />Pope Consort to Grand Mistress Krista Sedai<br />Minister to the Way of What<br />Warder to Egwene Dreamwalker (donate WSe please)<br /><br />Currently stalking Belals Girl.<br /><br />WTF?</font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-16 11:29:57
subject: <b>Imperial logistics</b>
body:
I believe it's more likely that the second map is of Caemlyn or at least Andor. Granted that the AS are seen as the greater threat than the Asha'man, to go to Tar Valon, an army without a Travel gateway has to go through Andor. As an empire, it is not enough that the Seanchan simply strike and destroy Tar Valon. They has to conquer and hold Tar Valon and to do that, they has to first conquer Murandy (which is little threat, if at all) and Andor (the Black Tower and rich Caemlyn are there). Not doing this would guarantee failure to hold Tar Valon as part of their reclamation of the Westlands.<br />Perhaps they know about the Black Tower, perhaps they don't. We don't know. So I think Andor will suffer the damane and the second map shows eastern Andor.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Gaeran Amaconde<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />Grand Historian at the Court of the Sun<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />One of Those Chosen to Bring the Light<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" />Master of Graendal's Revels<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" />&quot;If sometimes our dreams come true, what of our nightmares?&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-16 22:51:26
subject: <b>RE: The Prophecy</b>
body:
Right, we all know the Prophecy says the BT will be 'rent in fire and blood'. Anybody ever stop to think that this MAY NOT BE LITERAL? Remember, prophecies are complex things, and seldom mean what they seem to tell. The BT itself need not be destroyed/attacked/etc. It need only be divided. Perhaps someone will die, involving fire or some such, and the divide between Taim's men and Logain's will stretch to the breaking point. Hell, it would likely break. At which point the BT would be in serious INTERNAL trouble. And guess what? Prophecy fulfilled. Consider the multiple definitions of the verb 'to rend'.<br /><br /><br />Innumerable possible scenarios exist.


created: 2003-07-19 15:36:33
subject: <b>Black Tower vs Seanchan? Interesting</b>
body:
That's a good point, and one I hadn't considered before.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> Female Metalhead <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />&quot;Can you hear the violins playing your song?&quot;<br /><br />R.I.P. Dimebag Darrell 1966-2004</font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-22 01:20:53
subject: <b>good theory</b>
body:
i think ur right about the rolled up paper being for the BT. but i think the BT will be rent in blood and fire by asha'man. seeing as how he had the tar valon map unrolled and looking at it, i would assume that it's a more pressing concern. knowing the SC, it would be a just-in-case plan. i think the whole world knows EXACTLY where the asha'man are and it seems reasonable that the general who had some bit of success in fighting them would have that map at hand.<br /><br />And just for the record, i'd be willing to put money on the fact that the SC wont conquer tarvalon. almost, but not quite. that will be the point the dark strikes and the world needs to come together.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Fortune rides like the sun on high<br />with the fox that makes the ravens fly.<br />Luck his soul, the lightning his eye,<br />He snatches the moons from out the sky.&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-23 13:20:39
subject: <b>Male Damane</b>
body:
Adrian:<br /><br />Making female &quot;adams&quot; and male &quot;adams&quot; are comparing dogs and cats,  They`re 2 different animals.  Besides, can you imagine one {or even 2} Sul`dams tryimg to control an Asha`man, who is much stronger in the OP? Remember Modhedien`s comments on the matter in tSR.<br /><br />Etzel:<br /><br />Agree with you, except IMO the Seanchan will not beat the WT.<br /><br />Phoebe B Beebee:<br /><br />I agree Egwene will be of help in the WT and eventually, maybe soon, be the ONLY Amyrlin. She and Nynaeve are my favorite female characters.<br /><br />Fyatuk:<br /><br />I agree the Seanchan will attack the WT first, and probably have plans to go after the BT.<br /><br />Adrian, again:<br /><br />We KNOW the Seanchan will attack the WT.  Egwene had a True Dream about that the night Halima was murdering Kairen, and not there to interfere with Egwene`s Dreams.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2004-08-23 09:33:29
subject: <b>one coment</b>
body:
I only have one thing to say about the CH attacking the BT, FEAR.  Who is the most feared person? Rand. If you destroyed the BT, Rand supply of AM, you would gain a huge advantage by the fear factor. If the AS learned that the SC destroyed the BT think about the effect it would have on them.<br /><br />Also your &quot;attack the lesser threat first&quot; idea is just plain wrong in my opinion. They will have to pass right by the BT to get to the WT, unless they have learned to travel, which is possable, but i dought. Now that being said, if they attacked the WT first then they would loose a good part of their forces, and would have thier greater foe at their backs. To me it seems more likley that they would take Murandy(sp?), move into Andor, which Elayne would use to bring Andor under her command, there will be a pitched battle, eigther at the BT or Caemlyn, involve both Elayne and Logan, maybe Taim but skrew him, and if the AS are smart enough, they will end, or set aside, their little dissagrement and work together being as EG hates the CH and most other AS probly hate, or at least dislike, them as well.<br /><br />And to get around the 3 oaths, the AM are being attacked and in the AoL they would have been considered AS, or more likely Elayne is and AS and they must defend her and the other AS ther as well.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">There can be only one, may it be <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/uno.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-14 16:16:51
subject: <b>I don't know....</b>
body:
To me, you're implying that the Dark One is greatly apprehensive about his &quot;chosen&quot; gaining too much power or influence. I don't think the Dark One really cares how much power any of the chosen get, as long as they serve him still. And if their allegiance becomes a little murky, the Dark One would send a sharp reminder of who they serve (Shaidar Haran). Keep in mind that the Dark One is seemingly able to punish or kill any of his chosen at will. I think that fear greatly drives the Forsaken to acknowledge his power. <br /><br />I think the trollocs were meant to save Rand, the beginnings of the &quot;let the Lord of Chaos rule&quot; plan.


created: 2003-07-14 17:18:09
subject: <b>Question???????/</b>
body:
You said Callandor is the 3rd strongest male sa'angrel. Naturally the first is the Chodean Kal. What is the 2nd?


created: 2003-07-14 17:34:06
subject: <b>#2</b>
body:
Zoot- I believe it is generally agreed that the second strongest sa'angreal is the ring of Tamyrlin.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Tia mi aven Moridin isainde vadin <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /> .... The grave is no bar to my call.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bela.gif" border="0" /> The horse that never dies. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bela.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" /> &quot;You cannot hide. I see you. There is no life in the void. Only... death.&quot;	<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" /><br /> </font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-14 19:16:37
subject: <b>Good theory</b>
body:
But there's a few things I disagree with.<br /><br />1. When Lanfear said &quot;Even Moghedien would take it...&quot;, that doesn't just rule out Moghedien. Note that she said <b>EVEN</b> Moghedien would take it- she said that because Moghedien is the most cowardly of the Chosen, and thus the least likely to makea sudden action like stealing Callandor.<br /><br />2. Moghedien is certainly strong enough to make a gateway. We know that Aviendha and Egwene can both make gateways with ease- in fact, many &quot;normal&quot; Aes Sedai such as Sheriam can make them. Moghedien is only a small bitweaker than Nynaeve, and is far more powerful than Aviendha or Egwene.<br /><br />All in all, though, a great theory. Thumbs-up!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Proud president of the Society of People Who Make Up Societies And Pretend To Be The President Of Said Societies<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/w00t.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> People put WAY too many smileys in their sigs... <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/w00t.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-14 19:24:54
subject: <b>How do you know the DO ordered it</b>
body:
I don't see any evidence that the DO ordered Semirhage to do it. I think she probably did it on her own. Why??? Since the DO can only appear to people in dreams and at Shayol Ghul the timing would be difficult AND it would be far easier for him to just order Sammael not to send the Trollocs (or Bel'al not to try to take callandor). Remember the DO had almost unlimited power over the male foresaken especially; if they disobeyed him he could just allow them to go mad. <br /><br />More likely is that Semirhage did it on her own, both to prevent a rival foresaken from gaining too much power AND to get Lanfear in trouble. If you remember Semirhage hates lanfear, (wanted her dead one must assume). What better way than to make the other foresaken think Lanfear had sent the Trollocs to help Rand? It caused Sammael to want to kill her.


created: 2003-07-14 19:52:19
subject: <b>I don't think that Semirhage is the second strongest female</b>
body:
Really interesting theory. There is just one point. We do not know that Semirhage is stronger that Mesaana. All it says it says is that she just has different strengths to Mesaana.<br /><br />&quot;She matched well with Semirhage on most points and where she did not not, she had other strengths to lay against weaknesses in Semirhage&quot; (LOC Prologue). So far we know that Semirhage has two major talents: healing and travelling (Asmodean believes that she can prevent a gateway from closing FOH CHPT 31). However, in FOH Asmodean notes that Semirhage is very weak at cloud dancing.<br /><br />Personally, I think that Graendal is the second strongest female forsaken. When she first meets Cyndane she notes<br />&quot;The girl was stronger in the One Power than she herself! Even in her own age, that had been uncommon among men and very rare indeed among women&quot; (COT CHPT 12).


created: 2003-07-14 20:49:38
subject: <b>The DO has never tried to kill Rand</b>
body:
He has passed up thousands of chances to kill Rand and he never has. Simply put, to actually break the wheel of time he needs Rand to bend to kill. Killing Rand will just win him the battle. So everything the DO does is aimed at molding his pathway to one where he will turn to Rand, and having done this an infinite number of turns of the wheel, he knows what buttons to push. So any of the attempts on Rand's life have been faked to push Rand in the right direction.


created: 2003-07-14 23:39:32
subject: <b>good work</b>
body:
you know ive been wondering about this for a long time. i never knew the ring of tamyrlin was the 2nd strongest male sa'angreal how did you guys figure that out?? i thought nobody knew what it was. in any case, i agree with you completely.<br /><br />as for the DO never trying to kill rand i dont know about that. it seems he has always wanted to turn rand to the shadow if he could, but he also seemed to have no problem killing rand either i mean what was ishy trying to do at the end of tGH, or tDR for that matter, it sure seemed like he was trying to kill rand to me. i mean at the end of tDR ishy shot balefire at rand, i dont think he was trying to direct anywhere.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Whelp, I'm rich! So long losers who I've always hated.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-14 23:42:06
subject: <b>Semirhage was the female Chosen ordered</b>
body:
because she has learnt that the DO has his own plans that should not be questioned. SHe could be trusted to do exactly as asked. She also has a reputation for competence.<br /><br />(One of the Forsaken remarks that Semirhage had a hand in Rand's capture despite how it turned out.)<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> Linda Sedai <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Proud member of the Embroiderer's Guild of the White Tower<br /><br /><b><font color="red">FAQ admin</font></b> </font>'cos the FAQ is where it's at.<br /><br /><b>Currently working on:</b> my 70th FAQ<p><a href="http://13depository.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">The thirteenth depository : A Wheel of Time blog</a></p><p></p>


created: 2003-07-14 23:46:24
subject: <b>DO not trying to kill Rand</b>
body:
Was Ishy really trying to kill Rand, or was that also part of the grand plan? Besides, even if Ishy lost it and tried to kill Rand, that might have been his own thing, not the DOs orders. It just makes no sense to me that the DO - being pretty much all-powerful and all-knowing, would change his mind about something that important. And if he ever did want to kill Rand, a couple of packs of Darkhounds, Black Ajah and Chosen should do the trick. The number of times Rand could have been killed but wasn't it what convinces me the DO doesn't want him dead, and never has.


created: 2003-07-15 00:07:38
subject: <b>comments</b>
body:
i don't think it's commonly believed that the ring of the tamyrlin is the 2nd strongest sa'angreal... in fact, i think that there was a great deal of support (people-wise, not actual info in the books) for the idea that some throne of the tamyrlin was the 2nd strongest male sa'angreal... basically, no one knows in actuality...<br /><br />also, it seems unlikely that semirhage was sent by the DO because the DO works in large time frames... ie. by the time that the DO finds out about sammael's attack, it would take way too long for him to summon semirhage and then have her take trollocs with her, etc...<br /><br />what exactly is this quote you refer to in LoC about her secret orders from the DO? I don't remember this at all...<br /><br />finally, i think there are much better reasons to foil sammael's attack than that he's afraid that sammael will get his hands on callandor... for example, the fact that he can't let Rand die for him to achieve ultimate victory... or so he thought in LoC... he changed his mind later (that's where ur quotes in WH are from), but at this time, he can't afford to let anyone kill Rand...


created: 2003-07-15 07:35:49
subject: <b>thoughts</b>
body:
The quote (LoC p194 ch.6 pb) &quot;but neither would tell her if they recieved secret orders from the Great lord, any more than she would ever let them learn of the orders that had brought her here, or those that had her send Myrddraal and Trollocs to the Stone of Tear to battle those sent by Sammael.&quot;<br /><br />The reason you give for Mesaana (links with Demandred) applies just as much to Semirhage. A more likely reason is that Mesaana had a hand in the plot to lure Rand to Tear. I'm having trouble finding the quote, but I'm pretty sure on this. We don't know when Sammael and Graendal started plotting together but their personal history (she brought him to the Dark one) probably makes her unsuitable. There is no real reason not to use Moghedien (other than the she is a coward) and given her ability to sneak around, would probably be a better choice.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">We rode on the winds of the rising storm,<br />We ran to the sounds of the thunder,<br />We danced among the lightning bolts,<br />and tore the world asunder.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-15 11:42:15
subject: <b>Great theory</b>
body:
<br />I've just a small point to add. Perhaps there is further advantage for the DO of Rand having Callandar since it so powerful and dangerous. By using it, Rand is further affected by the taint and so fufils the DO's mission of increasing chaos and corrupting Rand.<br /><br />Also, the Dark One has no worries about controlling his foresaken as long as he has Moridin / Ishamael and can bestow on him the ability to use the TP. I think that no matter the strength, the TP has the advantage because of its undetectability. Though this is debatable, after all duels between men and women have this same characteristic.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Gratch was Richard's little bitch.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-15 14:32:14
subject: <b>What the heck is the Ring of Tamyrlin</b>
body:
Obviously some artifact associated with the person who sat in the Tamyrlin Seat.  However, I don't recall any cannonical reference to this item and in fact, I do not recall any evidence that suggests the person sitting in the Tamyrlin seat was the AOL equivalent of Amyrlin and M'Hael rolled into one.  If this is something from the RPG, I spit on it and on the person who offers the RPG as evidence.  THe RPG is not cannon.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-15 14:43:01
subject: <b>Um, this attributes far less power to the DO than I thought</b>
body:
First of all, the saidin channelers are terrified of the Dark One's suspicion of disloyalty, suggesting that he doesn't need them as much as they need him.  The idea that one Forsaken gathering too much power would be able to extort concessions from the Dark One is a bit hard to reconcile with their terror at the idea that the Dark One might think they don't need him.  I believe Osan'gar's thought that gaining Callandor would let him be Nae'blis merely reflects that the Dark One rewards accomplishment and power, and would turn a blind eye to his destroying of Moridin, if it was necessary to take Moridin's place.<br /><br />Unfortunately, the premise of this theory is that the Dark One has to play the Forsaken against each other out of FEAR of them them getting too powerful.  Anyway, none of the Forsaken in a PoV EVER contemplate going against the Dark One, who can after all, revoke their immortality.  They don't even want to disobey, let alone rebel; and are afraid to lie or withhold information regarding his orders.<br /><br />Unless this flawed premise can be overcome, the theory is wrong in regards to the Dark One's motivation.


created: 2003-07-15 18:53:26
subject: <b>good theroy</b>
body:
good theroy even though its more of a questin<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Balefire78 <br /> warder to Min farshaw<br />and Danea sedai and nynaeve mandragon<br /><br />ITS ONLY A FLESHWOUND!</font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-15 19:05:26
subject: <b>Mesaana</b>
body:
One quibble: Demandred, Mesaana and Semirhage are all allies - Semirhage isn't semi-detached from the other two. So your argument for Mesaana doesn't work. It isn't necessary though, except if you want to narrow it down to 1 with logic. You can narrow it down to 2 (and I think you have, very successfully), and the 1 of those 2 chosen (no pun intended) for the task was at random. Basically RJ was looking for a Forsaken that made sense for the plot, and you have shown us why she did.


created: 2003-07-15 22:02:30
subject: <b>Well thought out theory</b>
body:
but I wonder...<br />from where do you draw the conclusion that Osan&#8217;gar is not a powerful forsaken? He was/is AGinor, the second strongest male forsaken, he created the trollocs, and given the power of a sa'angreal may have been able to create far worse.


created: 2003-07-16 13:11:13
subject: <b>Some replies</b>
body:
To celebrated,<br /><br /><b> To me, you're implying that the Dark One is greatly apprehensive about his &quot;chosen&quot; gaining too much power or influence. I don't think the Dark One really cares how much power any of the chosen get, as long as they serve him still. And if their allegiance becomes a little murky, the Dark One would send a sharp reminder of who they serve (Shaidar Haran). Keep in mind that the Dark One is seemingly able to punish or kill any of his chosen at will. I think that fear greatly drives the Forsaken to acknowledge his power. </b><br /><br />You ignore the meaning of a powerful sa'angreal in the hand of a Forsaken.<br />I quoted Osan'gar's view that with Callandor he must become Nae'blis. <br />Also Lanfear had no stoppages to challenge the DO with the Choedan Kal. <br />This shows that the DO would very well lose control about a Forsaken with such a sa'angreal. And that can't be in his interest. <br /><br /><b> I think the trollocs were meant to save Rand, the beginnings of the &quot;let the Lord of Chaos rule&quot; plan. </b><br /><br />No, otherwise the DO had also at least tried to foil the plan of Rhavin and the other Forsaken to kill Rand, a plan which was surely a much bigger threat for Rand's life than Sammael's Shadowspawn attack in Tear. <br />But in TFoH the DO doesn't do anything to save Rand. The &quot;let the Lord of Chaos rule&quot; plan starts in LoC, after too many Forsaken failed and died.<br /><br /><br />To zoot132,<br /><br /><b> You said Callandor is the 3rd strongest male sa'angrel. Naturally the first is the Chodean Kal. What is the 2nd? </b><br /><br />Im think it's the Ring of Tamyrlin mentioned in EotW, prologue. If you want to read my theory about it search at the WoT Message Board, the thread &quot;Tamyrlin's ring&quot;.  <br /><br /><br />To Deaths lawyer,<br /><br /><b> 1. When Lanfear said &quot;Even Moghedien would take it...&quot;, that doesn't just rule out Moghedien. Note that she said EVEN Moghedien would take it- she said that because Moghedien is the most cowardly of the Chosen, and thus the least likely to makea sudden action like stealing Callandor. </b><br /><br />Moghedien would take it as you say and can't be trusted to send the Shadowspawn. So she is ruled out.<br /><br /><b> 2. Moghedien is certainly strong enough to make a gateway. We know that Aviendha and Egwene can both make gateways with ease- in fact, many &quot;normal&quot; Aes Sedai such as Sheriam can make them. Moghedien is only a small bitweaker than Nynaeve, and is far more powerful than Aviendha or Egwene. </b><br /><br />You need a long time a big gateway for all the Shadowspawn. But it's possible that you are right. <br />As I said in my theory there is no real proof who would be able to make such a gatway and who not.  <br /><br /><b> All in all, though, a great theory. Thumbs-up! </b><br /><br />Thanks!<br /><br /><br />To Sir_Lancelittle,<br /><br />As I quote in my theory, Semirhage thinks that she got the secret orders from the DO. Read LoC, ch.6 <br /><br /><br />To Uaine,<br /><br />it's possible that Semirhage is not the second strongest. I'm alwasy confused with the channeler's strength. <br />But I think other people figured out that she is the second strongest of the Forsaken.   <br /><br /><br />To Adrian,<br /><br /><b> He has passed up thousands of chances to kill Rand and he never has. Simply put, to actually break the wheel of time he needs Rand to bend to kill. Killing Rand will just win him the battle. So everything the DO does is aimed at molding his pathway to one where he will turn to Rand, and having done this an infinite number of turns of the wheel, he knows what buttons to push. So any of the attempts on Rand's life have been faked to push Rand in the right direction. </b><br /><br />You are wrong. At the beginning till LoC the DO (and so his Forsaken) always wanted to kill Rand. But they failed dramatically, even Ishy. So the DO changed his plans since LoC.  <br />When he heard from Rand's plan of the Cleansing he changed his plans agian (this threat was too big) and allowed to kill Rand if it's necessary to prevent the Cleansing.<br /><br />To Saranov,<br /><br /><b> Unfortunately, the premise of this theory is that the Dark One has to play the Forsaken against each other out of FEAR of them them getting too powerful. Anyway, none of the Forsaken in a PoV EVER contemplate going against the Dark One, who can after all, revoke their immortality. They don't even want to disobey, let alone rebel; and are afraid to lie or withhold information regarding his orders. </b><br /><br />That's of course wrong, Lanfear says that she would challenge the DO. <br />Anyway, it's not so much a fear of a rebbelion as the lose of his control if one Forsaken is too powerful. The DO just can't thread him (with Callandor) as he wants anymore.<br /><br /><br />To Jordanian,<br /><br />You are right, we can't rule out Mesaana like the other Forsaken. But as I said, to take Semirhage made just the most sense since she was in Seanchan at this time.<br /><br /><br />To olCennBuie,<br /><br /><b> but I wonder...<br />from where do you draw the conclusion that Osan&#8217;gar is not a powerful forsaken? He was/is AGinor, the second strongest male forsaken, he created the trollocs, and given the power of a sa'angreal may have been able to create far worse. </b><br /><br />I know that Osan'gar is the second strongest in the OP.<br />But I also believed that Forsaken like Demandred, Sammael or of course Ishamael stand above Aginor in the Forsaken peeking order, just because Aginor was the crazy scientist and the others the powerful generals and governours/rulers of the DO.<br />And the reborn Osan'gar was even lower in the peeking order, as one of the Forsaken who got a last chance.<br /> <br />


created: 2003-07-16 22:54:20
subject: <b>Not quite right</b>
body:
In PoD, prologue, pg. 35, Moridin explains the turning of the Shadow&#8217;s strategy by comparing the current war to the sha&#8217;rah game: one way to win the game is the &#8220;complete annihilation of your enemy.&#8221; Ishamael once tried to kill Rand (in the books till TDR) &#8220;but the attempt had failed. Painfully.&#8221; <br /><br />That means in the past (till TFoH) the Shadow wanted to kill Rand but then (from LoC) the DO wanted to turn or use Rand if possible, since he realized it&#8217;s probably the most glorious and securest way to win the game/war, in particular after Rand succeeded in killing so many of the Forsaken.<br /><br /> In TSR, Lanfear is talking to Rand in the Stone: <br /> &quot;Kneel to the Great Lord, and he will set you above all others. He will leave you free to reign as you will, so long as you bend knee to him only once. To acknowledge him. No more than that. He told me this. Asmodean will teach you to weild the Power without it killing you, teach what you can do with it. Let me help you. We can destroy the others. The Great Lord will not care. We can destroy all of them, even Asmodean, once he has taught you all you need to know. You and I can rule the world together under the Great Lord, forever.&quot; TSR, Decisions, HB, p.129.<br /><br /> From this passage, I think it becomes evident the Shadow has been wanting Rand for quite a while. He is the ultimate goal.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-17 05:08:11
subject: <b>To Light in the Night</b>
body:
No question, since the beginning in EotW the DO had been glad if Rand had voluntary turned to the Shadow. After all he is the Creator's champion and a powerful channeler.<br /><br />But the chances to get Rand were at all times very small and I think the DO knew this.<br />So he accepted Rand's death in order to win, even if the victory would be greater with Rand fighting for the Shadow.<br /><br />No one can seriously deny that Ishy (who surely stands for the DO's plans) wanted to kill Rand in EotW, TGH and TDR when he realized that Rand wouldn't turn.<br />To say all this was just Ishy's plan to make Rand turn by letting himself defeat several times and (finally even killed) as some people say is absurd in my view.<br /><br />But the DO doesn't do anything against Ishy's or the other Forsaken's plan to kill Rand (e.g. in TDR Be'lal's plan or in TFoH Rhavin's plan). <br /><br />Till LoC the only time the DO foils the plan of a Forsaken is  Sammael's attack on the Stone in TSR though this attack wasn't that dangerous for Rand. <br />As I pointed out the DO didn't cared much for Rand's life before this event and after it, especially in TFoH. <br />That means you can only explain this scene by saying that the DO didn't wanted to save Rand but to save Callandor, so that sammael doesn't get it.<br />Otherwise the scene in the Stone would be inconsistent with the rest of the story.<br /><br />Then after TFoH since LoC, prologue, the DO changed his plans and forbids expressly to kill Rand (probably Rhavin's and Lanfear's deaths were the flash point). <br />In the end of LoC Rand is saved from the box by Taim (who is probably a Darkfriend) and in ACoS even Moridin saves Rand's life against Sammael's plan because he doesn't &quot;care to see Rand die today&quot; (not the change in Ishy's/Moridin's attitude between the first 3 books and ACoS !).<br /><br />Until then the Shadow learned that Rand plans to cleanse Saidin in PoD, ch.14 (altough they killed Fel and hoped this would prevent a Cleansing); the DO allows all Forsaken again to kill Rand &quot;if necessary&quot; in WH, ch.13.     <br /><br />However, all this demonstrates that the DO certainly didn't want to save Rand's life before LoC and after PoD though he would be glad if Rand would turn to him but not at any cost.<br />Therefore I gave an explaination of Semirhage's Shadowspawn sending which fits with the rest of the story.<br /> <br />


created: 2003-07-17 12:09:10
subject: <b>I said...</b>
body:
In there PoV.  We have never seen Lanfear's PoV, so we don't know if she was telling the truth.  If you want to get the Dragon Reborn on your side, talking about fighting the Dark One is a good way to go about it.  We don't know how sincere Lanfear was with that offer.  And two of the Choedan Kal used together by a man and a woman are not the same thing as a flwaed Callandor.  And if Cadsuane knows of Callandor's flaw, you can bet the Dark One does.


created: 2003-07-17 12:35:43
subject: <b>Sha'rah</b>
body:
Another way to win in Sha'rah is to play both sides of the board. Moridin considers himself to be doing this in the prologue to (can't remember, but I think) CoS or PoD.<br /><br />So how is he playing Rand?


created: 2003-07-17 13:15:56
subject: <b>To Saranov and Jordanian</b>
body:
Saranov,<br /><br /><b>  In there PoV. We have never seen Lanfear's PoV, so we don't know if she was telling the truth. If you want to get the Dragon Reborn on your side, talking about fighting the Dark One is a good way to go about it. We don't know how sincere Lanfear was with that offer. And two of the Choedan Kal used together by a man and a woman are not the same thing as a flwaed Callandor. And if Cadsuane knows of Callandor's flaw, you can bet the Dark One does. </b><br /><br />You are still wrong. Read WH, ch.35, Cyndane's (who is without any doubt Lanfear) POV:&quot;She would have faced the Great Lord- faced the Creator!- with him...&quot;.<br /><br />Of course Callandor is not strong enough to face the DO like with both Choedan Kal. I never said that. <br />But at least it's strong enough to make the male Forsaken with Callandor in his hands partly independent from the DO's control. <br /><br /><br />Jordanian,<br /><br /><b> Another way to win in Sha'rah is to play both sides of the board. Moridin considers himself to be doing this in the prologue to (can't remember, but I think) CoS or PoD.<br /><br />So how is he playing Rand? </b><br /><br />I thought the Fisher represents Rand, not that Rand is one of the sides?<br />But the complete meaning of the sha'rah scene in the prologue of PoD is quite enciphered. <br /><br />I also don't know how or why Moridin controls Rand and/or the Light side. Just via some random Darkfriends at every important places or is someone very important at Rand's side in fact a Darkfriend?  <br /><br />Maybe Moridin is a bit too confident of his control in this scene, after all Rand seemed to surprise the Shadow by the Cleansing of saidin. <br /><br />


created: 2003-07-18 12:56:42
subject: <b>Sammael was trying to kill Rand</b>
body:
LoC, Ch 6, &quot;I(Sammael) would have had his(Rand) head in the Stone of Tear except someone sent Myrddraal and Trollocs to save him!&quot;<br /><br />The second problem, as someone else tried to point out Lanfear's comment, &quot;Even Moghedien would take it [the Callandor] to deny you [Rand] its use; she could gain much by trading it to any male Chosen.&quot;  This comment shows why any of the female Forsaken could not be trusted by the DO.<br /><br />Up to tSR there's no attempts on Rand's life, except for Ishy who only does so after being rejected and so is not necessarily following the DO's orders.<br /><br />It seems more likely that the DO didn't think that Rahvin et al would be much of a threat to Rand considering how well Rand had gone through the other Forsaken he had encountered.  Plus it's possible that the DO wanted to see how much Rand could do by tFoH.  Once Rand took out Rahvin and controlled a large part of the mainlands the DO decided to let Rand play at being king since that would cause more chaos in the land.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sir Jim<br />Lord of Minutia&#8482;<br />King of WoT MB Posts&#8482;<br /><br />Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-18 16:10:30
subject: <b>Respond to Jim</b>
body:
<b> LoC, Ch 6, &quot;I(Sammael) would have had his(Rand) head in the Stone of Tear except someone sent Myrddraal and Trollocs to save him!&quot; </b><br /><br />Sammy <i> said </i> he wanted to kill Rand. <br />I don't want to deny that Sammael would be glad if any of his Trollocs or Myrddraal killed Rand by chance. <br />But was that really his main reason to send the Shadowspawn? I think not.<br /><br />First, Sammael couldn't really expect that some Shadowspawn would succeed in killing the Dragon Reborn where Ishy and Be'lal failed.<br /><br />Second, what do you think Sammael would say to Graendal? &quot;I would have had Callandor in the Stone of Tear...&quot;. That would sound as if it's essential for Sammael to have Callandor and so show a weakness. <br />With saying that he tried to kill Rand, he demonstrates strength. <br /><br /><b> The second problem, as someone else tried to point out Lanfear's comment, &quot;Even Moghedien would take it [the Callandor] to deny you [Rand] its use; she could gain much by trading it to any male Chosen.&quot; This comment shows why any of the female Forsaken could not be trusted by the DO. </b><br /><br />Any except for Semirhage who certainly not even thought about Callandor since she was whole time in Seanchan. <br /><br /><b> Up to tSR there's no attempts on Rand's life, except for Ishy who only does so after being rejected and so is not necessarily following the DO's orders. </b><br /><br />That's not right of course! <br />Be'lal tried to kill Rand in TDR (I think some other Forsaken supported him) and I think Sammael send his Darkhounds. <br />Also Ishy surely followed the DO's orders. <br />At this time it was not prohibited to kill Rand, otherwise the orders in LoC don't make sense.  <br /><br /><b> It seems more likely that the DO didn't think that Rahvin et al would be much of a threat to Rand considering how well Rand had gone through the other Forsaken he had encountered. Plus it's possible that the DO wanted to see how much Rand could do by tFoH. Once Rand took out Rahvin and controlled a large part of the mainlands the DO decided to let Rand play at being king since that would cause more chaos in the land. </b><br /><br />If the DO thought Sammael's attack is a threat than he surely knew that Rhavin's plan was even more dangerous! <br />In TSR <i> some Shadowspawn </i> attack Rand's whereabout while in TFoH at least <i> two Forsaken directly </i> want to attack Rand (and it was planned that more take part in it!)<br />And if you see the DO's reaction to Rhavin's dead in LoC, it's clear that he didn't expected it. <br />On the contrary, Rhavin's and Lanfear's death were finally the reasons why the DO changed his plans.


created: 2003-07-18 16:43:53
subject: <b>Lanfear and the Stone of Tear (tSR)</b>
body:
I havent seen anyone mention this, so I don't know if it is already common knowledge that it was proved wrong, and I'm jut out of the loop. Wasn't it supposed to be Lanfear that sent the trollocs and myrdraal to the stone of tear in tSR to save Rand from Sammael's trollocs and myrdraal?? She was there, nearly in the midst of battle, talking with Rand as if she owned the place. I apologize for not having tSR right here to give you page numbers and quotes, but maybe someone can check for me. In that conversation wasn't it implied that she was saving him at the time, thus the counter shadowspawn were sent by her? She even said in that conversation something like that she couldn't move to protect him in the open, since she feared backlash from the Shadow, and she wasn't going to help him so obviously next time.<br /><br />My 2 silver pennies.<br />&quot;Thought is the arrow of time, and memory never fades.&quot;<br />Jon Farstrider


created: 2003-07-18 20:15:37
subject: <b>No, it wasn't Lanfear, it was Semirhage</b>
body:
<i>From Chapter 6 LoC (Semirhage is thinking about her alliance with Mesaana and Demandred):</i><br /><br />&quot;Their uneasy alliance - if it could be called by so strong a name - had lasted a long time, but neither would tell her if they received secret orders from the Great Lord, any more than she would ever let them learn of the orders that had brought her here, or those that had had her send Myrddraal and Trollocs to the Stone of Tear to battle those sent by Sammael.&quot;<br /><br />In that passage in tSR, Lanfear is just trying to gain credit for someone else's action.


created: 2003-07-18 21:11:18
subject: <b>A summons by the DO</b>
body:
It was mentioned that the DO may have to use a Mydraal to summon a person. In the GH, Prolouge &quot;In the Shadow&quot; it says, &quot;He did not like to think about where he might be. It was enough that he had been summoned. He did not like to think about that, either, but for such a summons, even he came.&quot; This is Bors of course and there were 100 other people there as well. This makes it seem to me that the DO communicates through dreams. There are a couple of times he has snatched errant Forsaken right out of thier dreams to punish them for perceived mistakes. <br />Over all I really like this theory and agree with most of it. I had always believed Lanfear was the one who brought in the trollocks. This is another slant.<br />Three snaps in a &quot;Z&quot; formation!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-19 02:25:16
subject: <b>asleep at the wheel</b>
body:
I don't remember anything being said about the Tamyrlyn's ring or throne in any books, I don't have TEoTW with me so I can't look in there can someone tell me where they are mentioned


created: 2003-07-19 20:15:54
subject: <b>zoot132</b>
body:
The conversation was between Elan Morin (Ishamael) and LTT in T EotW Prologue.  Elan Morin to LTT:  &quot;Once you wore the Ring of Tamyrlin, and sat in the High Seat.etc, etc.&quot;<br /> page xi.  Hope this is helpful.<br /><br />Thoughtful Theory, Etzel.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-24 00:18:58
subject: <b>To Etzel:</b>
body:
Again, Cyndane's PoV is not entirely reliable.  She's in crazed-stalker mode, and her view of past events is just a bit shaky.  She automatically get's jealous, wrongly assuming Rand and his girlfriend are using the Choedan Kal.  People in that kind of denial re-write past events to convince themselves they were justified or the victim.  Plus, am I the only one sdetecting a wee bit of megalomania on her part?  Just 'cause she's willing to challenge the DO doesn't mean he's afraid of it.  Does anyone think Rand would be scared if he knew Egwene and Siuan plan to teach him a lesson for his &quot;Compulsion&quot; of Aes Sedai?<br /><br />However, the point was that the Dark One would be afraid of a male Forsaken stealing Callandor and that someone weilding Callandor could force the Dark One to do anything.  Osan'gar (again, not the sharpest tool in the shed) believes that he can force Moridin to give way to him as Naeblis, not that the DO would be forced to give him Moridin's position.  He might even be right, since the &quot;flaw&quot; distorts perception through the taint, from which he is protected.  In any case, the Dark One would still not have been afraid of a male Forsaken running around with Callandor.  He let Bel'al run around in Tear and do the whole &quot;lure Rand here with his female friends&quot; plan when his aim was obviously stealing Callandor from Rand.


created: 2003-07-24 00:41:11
subject: <b>Calm down, Saranov</b>
body:
The Dark One can be suspicious for no good reason: look at how the Forsaken were worried he wouldn't trust them if the taint was gone.  &quot;Oh, I'm a great, evil Forsaken.  The Dark One has granted me immortality and I've committed atrocities beyond counting in his name.  But, oh, since the taint is gone, I don't need his protection, so I'm gonna betray him.&quot;  To whom would they turn after betraying the Dark One? The good guys have learned not to try holding on to a captive Forsaken.  And for that matter, they signed on with the Dark One long before saidin ever became tainted.  Most of the women have stayed loyal and there's no taint on saidar.  If the Dark One can assume the men will all turn on him just because saidin is clean, he can suspect them of anything.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-25 04:50:21
subject: <b>@ Saranov</b>
body:
<b> Again, Cyndane's PoV is not entirely reliable. She's in crazed-stalker mode, and her view of past events is just a bit shaky. She automatically get's jealous, wrongly assuming Rand and his girlfriend are using the Choedan Kal. People in that kind of denial re-write past events to convince themselves they were justified or the victim. Plus, am I the only one sdetecting a wee bit of megalomania on her part? Just 'cause she's willing to challenge the DO doesn't mean he's afraid of it. Does anyone think Rand would be scared if he knew Egwene and Siuan plan to teach him a lesson for his &quot;Compulsion&quot; of Aes Sedai? </b><br /><br />Well, the Choedan Kal were created to challenge the DO. I think if two strong chanellers like Rand and Lanfear would use them, the DO should be concerned.<br /><br /><b> However, the point was that the Dark One would be afraid of a male Forsaken stealing Callandor and that someone weilding Callandor could force the Dark One to do anything. Osan'gar (again, not the sharpest tool in the shed) believes that he can force Moridin to give way to him as Naeblis, not that the DO would be forced to give him Moridin's position. He might even be right, since the &quot;flaw&quot; distorts perception through the taint, from which he is protected. <br /><br />In any case, the Dark One would still not have been afraid of a male Forsaken running around with Callandor. He let Bel'al run around in Tear and do the whole &quot;lure Rand here with his female friends&quot; plan when his aim was obviously stealing Callandor from Rand. </b><br /><br />Therefore Ishy (whom the DO trusts) was <i> also </i> in the Heart of the Stone when Rand and Be'lal clashed. Ishy was hidden in the shadows untill Be'lal's death. <br />As I said in the theory I'm sure that Ishy had immediately killed Be'lal and taken Callandor if Be'lal had been successful in killing Rand.  <br />


created: 2006-09-15 05:14:46
subject: <b>Response</b>
body:
&quot;I don't see any evidence that the DO ordered Semirhage to do it.&quot;<br /><br />Semirhage mentions she had such orders in LoC, and who else can order a Forsaken?  The same chapter in which this was mentioned also has the Hand of the Dark, so it seems pretty safe to assume that that was the DO's medium of communication.<br /><br />&quot;(wanted her dead one must assume).&quot;<br /><br />I'm sure she would have salivated at the thought of keeping her alive forever, actually, torturing her to her heart's content.  Or breaking her and converting her into a lapdog; she seems to be fond of that, too.<br /><br />&quot;Personally, I think that Graendal is the second strongest female forsaken. When she first meets Cyndane she notes<br />&quot;The girl was stronger in the One Power than she herself! Even in her own age, that had been uncommon among men and very rare indeed among women&quot; (COT CHPT 12).&quot;<br /><br />That doesn't give you any idea of how she compares to Semirhage or Mesaana, though.  My impression is that Moghedien is the weakest, while Graendal, Semirhage, and Mesaana are all roughly equal, able to stand toe-to-toe with most upper-level male channellers--approaching the male Forsaken, although Asmodean's rank among them may be dubious (given their attitudes toward one another, they'd hardly be so caustic toward them if they were strong enough to easily shield them, as Rand could with Egwene and Elayne)--and with Lanfear somewhat beyond them, apparently close to the extremely strong male channellers.  (Rahvin claims either he or Sammael could overwhelm her, in what I assume would be a Tanchico, Nynaeve-v.-Moghedien-esque style OP contest, and they're made out to be only a bit weaker than Rand himself.  I would've thought this to simply be boasting, but I kinda doubt he would've included Sammael if that were the case.)<br /><br />&quot;as for the DO never trying to kill rand i dont know about that. it seems he has always wanted to turn rand to the shadow if he could, but he also seemed to have no problem killing rand either i mean what was ishy trying to do at the end of tGH, or tDR for that matter, it sure seemed like he was trying to kill rand to me. i mean at the end of tDR ishy shot balefire at rand, i dont think he was trying to direct anywhere.&quot;<br /><br />Lanfear mentions to Graendal, Rahvin, and Sammael (in TFoH, I think) that Ishamael tried bullying and intimidation in trying to turn Rand, and that in combination with how mind-numbingly easy it would have been to kill Rand in his dreams, before he knew he could even channel, and his actions in the first two books seem to support this claim.  I thought Ishamael was really trying to kill Rand in TGH, too, until later on, when it became clear what could be done with the Power; then it just appeared as if he were repelling his attacks.  (And, in hindsight, doing this in a similar manner to Rand's own attacks seemed like a good tactic, since Rand could've seen what he was doing with saidin and picked up on a few things.)  And it seemed that Ishamael was only trying to kill Rand in TDR when he came after him relentlessly with Callandor, during which it became a matter of kill or be killed.<br /><br />&quot;the DO - being pretty much all-powerful and all-knowing&quot;<br /><br />The Dark One isn't supposed to be omnipotent or omniscient.  If it knew everything, it would have told Ishamael the minute he was born on Dragonmount, and he could've scooped him up and reared him himself as the Shadow's champion.  (Take a moment to savour the thought of Ishamael parenting, and changing Rand's diapers.)  Or he could direct them to the seven seals.  Or he could've seen Lews Therin and the Hundred Companions coming, and scattered the Forsaken.<br /><br />&quot;i don't think it's commonly believed that the ring of the tamyrlin is the 2nd strongest sa'angreal... in fact, i think that there was a great deal of support (people-wise, not actual info in the books) for the idea that some throne of the tamyrlin was the 2nd strongest male sa'angreal... basically, no one knows in actuality...&quot;<br /><br />Was this ring or throne discussed in some compilation book or something?  Because it sounds kinda silly, since the leadership role among the Servants, considering the differences in the AoL, likely would not have been reserved for a male channeller.<br /><br />&quot;A more likely reason is that Mesaana had a hand in the plot to lure Rand to Tear. I'm having trouble finding the quote, but I'm pretty sure on this.&quot;<br /><br />Yep.  She cooked up that plot with Be'lal, I think.  She seems to be behind a number of elabourate schemes to overcome Rand.<br /><br />&quot;One quibble: Demandred, Mesaana and Semirhage are all allies - Semirhage isn't semi-detached from the other two. So your argument for Mesaana doesn't work. It isn't necessary though, except if you want to narrow it down to 1 with logic. You can narrow it down to 2 (and I think you have, very successfully), and the 1 of those 2 chosen (no pun intended) for the task was at random. Basically RJ was looking for a Forsaken that made sense for the plot, and you have shown us why she did.&quot;<br /><br />Perhaps, but Semirhage seems to be the only other Forsaken fully acquainted with Shaidar Haran outside of Shayol Ghul, aside from Moridin.  Mesaana, on the other hand, (at this point in time), only met him when she went to SG while waiting for Demandred, and it seemed SH didn't even deign to speak to her.  I also find it noteworthy to point out that Semirhage must have been informed of Seanchan's existence before she went there after being freed, and Ishamael seemed to be the only other Forsaken who logically knew of this place (what, with his being Hawkwing's advisor at this time).  And if Ishamael knew, the DO knew; and thus SH knew.  (Ishamael likely informed her, directly or indirectly, a la Graendal regarding Shara with Sammael, since from her interactions with SH, she hadn't been acquainted with him for too long a while.<br /><br />Also, considering Semirhage and Mesaana's very different mindsets, the former seemed to be the safer choice, since she believes power only comes from the DO, and, disregarding Ishamael, at least from that passage in LoC, she seems the most devoted to it (and was one of the first to swear to it, I believe).<br /><br />&quot;No, otherwise the DO had also at least tried to foil the plan of Rhavin and the other Forsaken to kill Rand, a plan which was surely a much bigger threat for Rand's life than Sammael's Shadowspawn attack in Tear.&quot;<br /><br />Their agreed plan is not to kill Rand, it's to capture him and, if I remember correctly, to present him to the DO (after using him to kill the other Forsaken, of course).  Sammael would draw him to him by over attacks, during which Lanfear, Graendal, and Rahvin, linked, would overwhelm him.  (Of course, each seemed to have their one side-plans.  Except maybe Rahvin.)<br /><br />&quot;Moghedien would take it as you say and can't be trusted to send the Shadowspawn. So she is ruled out.&quot;<br /><br />If the DO doubted Moghedien's loyalty, she'd have been mindtrapped much earlier on.  Besides, why would she hesitate in anonymously sending surrogates to do her dirty work?<br /><br />&quot;Anyway, it's not so much a fear of a rebbelion as the lose of his control if one Forsaken is too powerful. The DO just can't thread him (with Callandor) as he wants anymore.&quot;<br /><br />Callandor is by no means that powerful.  Asmodean only believes for a second that Rand even has a chance at Tarmon Gai'don when he thinks he kept the access keys, but Rand lies and tells him he got rid of them, he pretty much gives up all hope.  The Forsaken would have to take into account the inevitability of the DO's emancipation, so going off and rebelling due to the mere possession of Callandor is simply insane.<br /><br />&quot;I know that Osan'gar is the second strongest in the OP.<br />But I also believed that Forsaken like Demandred, Sammael or of course Ishamael stand above Aginor in the Forsaken peeking order, just because Aginor was the crazy scientist and the others the powerful generals and governours/rulers of the DO.<br />And the reborn Osan'gar was even lower in the peeking order, as one of the Forsaken who got a last chance.&quot;<br /><br />Aginor's raw OP strength in comparison with the likes of Demandred, Sammael, Balthamel, and Rahvin (I'm excluding Be'lal and Asmodean, since almost nothing is given to indicate their strengths relative to the others) is never pointed out to be superior.  He's made out to be close to Rand, but so are Rahvin, Demandred, and Sammael, while Aran'gar withstood an attack from a circle of four, I believe (including a relatively strong Asha'man, though apparently nowhere near the likes of Rand).<br /><br />Aginor mentions battling Lews Therin once, when he first appears, but that claim seems somewhat doubtful, given how easily Demandred cowed him as Osan'gar (being reincarnated doesn't mean they have to defer to the others, as Aran'gar makes very clear).  <br /><br />&quot;To say all this was just Ishy's plan to make Rand turn by letting himself defeat several times and (finally even killed) as some people say is absurd in my view.&quot;<br /><br />And Ishamael accepting defeat after melee combat with Rand isn't absurd?  Instead of shielding him when he isn't holding the power, or projecting something like lightning, or simply binding?  (Then again, some manacles of air would've done nicely.)  The only thing I can say to that is: Ishamael IS a crazy person.  (A better answer would be RJ just orchestrated these for dramatic effect, and that his view of saidin or the OP in general was not fully matured until the following books.)<br /><br />&quot;But the DO doesn't do anything against Ishy's or the other Forsaken's plan to kill Rand (e.g. in TDR Be'lal's plan or in TFoH Rhavin's plan).&quot;<br /><br />Ishamael and the DO seemed to be on the same page.  He had been impersonating it for about a thousand years.<br /><br />&quot;Another way to win in Sha'rah is to play both sides of the board. Moridin considers himself to be doing this in the prologue to (can't remember, but I think) CoS or PoD.<br /><br />So how is he playing Rand?&quot;<br /><br />He was allowing him to live?  The Shadow is--or, at least, was--manoeuvring a great many of the principle players on the other side: Aran'gar with Egwene, Mesaana with Elaida, the Black Ajah with both, Demandred (and, by default, Taim) with the Black Tower, Osan'gar with Rand (for a while), Graendal in Arad Doman, and Semirhage with the Seanchan.<br /><br />&quot;You are still wrong. Read WH, ch.35, Cyndane's (who is without any doubt Lanfear) POV:&quot;She would have faced the Great Lord- faced the Creator!- with him...&quot;.&quot;<br /><br />This begs the question: Was she punished for that, or was she punished for seriously trying to kill Rand?  If it's the former, then why wasn't Asmodean, who was forced to betray the DO, recycled?  (This would support the notion that he was balefired.)  If it's the latter, then why wasn't Sammael recycled?  (If he were, most sensible readers would assume Moridin would know.)  Because he disobeyed the 'do not kill' order?  He still could've been mindtrapped, no?<br /><br />&quot;Of course Callandor is not strong enough to face the DO like with both Choedan Kal. I never said that. <br />But at least it's strong enough to make the male Forsaken with Callandor in his hands partly independent from the DO's control.&quot;<br /><br />That is where you are wrong.  A male Forsaken depends on the Dark One's favour to keep the taint, which was an issue at the time, at bay.  That, and rebelling against something you know is going to break free pretty soon, even only minutely, is still absolutely ludicrous.<br /><br />&quot;The second problem, as someone else tried to point out Lanfear's comment, &quot;Even Moghedien would take it [the Callandor] to deny you [Rand] its use; she could gain much by trading it to any male Chosen.&quot; This comment shows why any of the female Forsaken could not be trusted by the DO.&quot;<br /><br />That always seemed absurd to me.  Why would a female Forsaken give someone a hugely massive advantage over everyone else, herself included?  Taking into account their penchant for in-fighting, this statement seems to be safe to disregard.<br /><br />&quot;Up to tSR there's no attempts on Rand's life, except for Ishy who only does so after being rejected and so is not necessarily following the DO's orders.&quot;<br /><br />That DO had to have been on board in TDR, otherwise it would not have authorised the usage of the True Power.<br /><br />&quot;Sammy said he wanted to kill Rand. <br />I don't want to deny that Sammael would be glad if any of his Trollocs or Myrddraal killed Rand by chance. <br />But was that really his main reason to send the Shadowspawn? I think not.&quot;<br /><br />Where would the Shadowspawn find Callandor?  With Rand.  Sammael probably thought he could kill two birds with one stone: off Rand and become top dog.<br /><br />&quot;Second, what do you think Sammael would say to Graendal? &quot;I would have had Callandor in the Stone of Tear...&quot;. That would sound as if it's essential for Sammael to have Callandor and so show a weakness. <br />With saying that he tried to kill Rand, he demonstrates strength.&quot;<br /><br />If Sammael wanted to demonstrate strength, he probably wouldn't have mentioned it at all, since it reminds Graendal that he wouldn't dare face Rand himself.<br /><br />&quot;Any except for Semirhage who certainly not even thought about Callandor since she was whole time in Seanchan.&quot;<br /><br />All of the Forsaken know the forefront of the Last Battle will be where everyone else is, in Randland.  They must all be acquainted with the Prophecies, and I'm sure none of them wanted Rand to gain an angreal, let alone Callandor.  Semirhage likely would've taken it if the opportunity presented itself, but it wasn't even mentioned that she actually went there.  It just said that she sent the Shadowspawn.  (Could've even been by the Ways, though that is doubtful, since expediency was probably a factor.)<br /><br />&quot;That's not right of course! <br />Be'lal tried to kill Rand in TDR (I think some other Forsaken supported him) and I think Sammael send his Darkhounds. <br />Also Ishy surely followed the DO's orders. <br />At this time it was not prohibited to kill Rand, otherwise the orders in LoC don't make sense.&quot;<br /><br />Sammael didn't know whom his Darkhounds were pursuing.  Be'lal surely would've tried to have killed him once he gained Callandor, but one has to take into account Ishamael's presence up in the columns.  (Ishamael was also seen in TAR arguing and yelling at Be'lal and Rahvin.  Perhaps over killing Rand?)<br /><br />The orders in LoC were likely given out because it seemed the opportune time: If the Dark One said, &quot;I want him alive,&quot; the other Forsaken would've immediately suspected, as Graendal and Semirhage and Mesaana have, that he wants to turn him and make him into his champion.  At the time, Rand could hardly channel his way out of a wet paper bag; but later on, after Asmodean's teaching and Lews Therin's memories, he is capable of really holding his own, to the point where the others wouldn't dare face him unless they had a tremendous advantage or were left with no alternative.<br /><br />&quot;If the DO thought Sammael's attack is a threat than he surely knew that Rhavin's plan was even more dangerous!&quot;<br /><br />Rahvin's plan was pathetic, and depended upon the cooperation and trust of several Forsaken.  (Good luck with that.)  And he never tried to provoke Rand into coming to face him.  (I think he sent some Shadowspawn to test him in the Waste, but Rand only knew whom they were from because of Lanfear, something Rahvin probably didn't count on, in which case he is a vain fool.)<br /><br />&quot;It was mentioned that the DO may have to use a Mydraal to summon a person. In the GH, Prolouge &quot;In the Shadow&quot; it says, &quot;He did not like to think about where he might be. It was enough that he had been summoned. He did not like to think about that, either, but for such a summons, even he came.&quot; This is Bors of course and there were 100 other people there as well. This makes it seem to me that the DO communicates through dreams.&quot;<br /><br />Why would the DO do such a thing, when it had thirteen Forsaken who could do it for it?  It seems much more likely that Ishamael, who held that meeting, was the one who reached into their dreams.<br /><br />&quot;There are a couple of times he has snatched errant Forsaken right out of thier dreams to punish them for perceived mistakes.&quot;<br /><br />That's never happened, at least not in this particular Age.<br /><br />&quot;Well, the Choedan Kal were created to challenge the DO. I think if two strong chanellers like Rand and Lanfear would use them, the DO should be concerned.&quot;<br /><br />I think RJ mentioned it was originally put forward that a barrier be made with the CK around SG in order to bottle it up until a real solution could be devised, but the probability of the DO's strength growing great enough within the barrier until it was strong enough to bust free led LTT and co. to the raid on SG.<br /><br />Since the CK were used to cleanse the taint, I'm skeptical on them being used to actually destroy the DO.  They may be able to split the earth, melt continents effortlessly, but the DO is a cosmic principle with cosmic forces almost equivalent to those of the True Source at its disposal; you'd imagine it would take something of similarly cosmic proportions to completely destroy it.  (Repairing the Bore, however, may not be out of the question.)


created: 2007-12-06 23:51:50
subject: <b>The Dark One is...</b>
body:
The reason the Dark One is able to know of Sammael's plans and know so much stuff is because he is equivalent to the Creator, this makes him a God. Because of the fact he is an infinite force, he is Omnipotent. Part of the reason he is Omnipotent is because he is sealed everywhere in the pattern, Shayol Ghul is just a place where it happened to be slightly soft...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Got Dignity?<br /><br />Public Forum, Policy, Congress, Expository, Original Oratory,<br />Humorous Interpretation, Dramatic Interpretation, Duo Interpretation, Impromptu, Extemporaneous, Lincoln-Douglas...<br /><br />Any Questions? Sorry, I'm Not Open For Cross-Examination</font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-17 11:35:17
subject:
<b>You are probably right! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /></b>

body:
By the way, I'm not sure but I think that no female Forsaken sniffed so far. <br />Maybe they have a similiar protection from the DO like the men have against the taint? <br /><br />Definitely something to consider...


created: 2003-07-17 12:29:53
subject: <b>Wasabi flavoured cider, eh?</b>
body:
That's not to be sniffed at.<br /><br />(Sorry <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />)


created: 2003-07-17 12:58:53
subject: <b>.</b>
body:
I'm scared.....<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Seeking Aes Sedai for Bondage... uhh bonding. <br /><br />We rode on the winds of the rising storm,<br />We ran to the sounds of the thunder,<br />We danced among the lightning bolts,<br />and tore the world asunder.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-17 13:27:09
subject: <b>You wool-headed bafoon..</b>
body:
wait, that's me...<br /><br />good theory, fits in well with a few pagan religions i've studied.<br /><br />anyway...  yeah that's it... anyway...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Fyatuk Loth<br />Pope Consort to Grand Mistress Krista Sedai<br />Minister to the Way of What<br />Warder to Egwene Dreamwalker (donate WSe please)<br /><br />Currently stalking Belals Girl.<br /><br />WTF?</font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-17 17:12:35
subject: <b>It all becomes clear...</b>
body:
And a word advice young reader, skip book 10.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">PsyKyle<br /><i>Good heavens, that name sounds more cliche everytime I post...</i><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-17 18:03:13
subject: <b>Cocaine</b>
body:
I always assumed that all the girls were on cocaine. Why else are they so loving one minute so moody the next? Oh yeah, they are women. <br /><br />Your right, it must be the taint!


created: 2003-07-18 11:39:27
subject: <b>yayo</b>
body:
I submitted a theory a while back on nynaeve's sniffing stemming from a cocaine habit - it didn't get posted but I still believe it.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">--If they ever come up with a swashbuckling School, I think one of the courses should be Laughing, Then Jumping Off Something--</font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-18 13:14:17
subject: <b><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/oh.gif" border="0" /></b>
body:
The secret is out!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br /><i>I will try. Before surrendering to dreams or death, I will try.<font color="black"></font></i></font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-18 22:51:22
subject: <b>hey everyone</b>
body:
nope its just nit funny at all though good effort <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Balefire78 <br /> warder to Min farshaw<br />and Danea sedai and nynaeve mandragon<br /><br />ITS ONLY A FLESHWOUND!</font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-19 02:03:23
subject: <b>Do they ever worry about hyperventilating?</b>
body:
Lol! I love it! Finally an explanation to that disgusting and somewhat annoying habit! But I have to wonder, there is so much &quot;sniffing&quot; going on you would think there would be a danger of hyperventilating. Lets just hope that the &quot;snot&quot; taint doesn't develop any further or Randland will be over it's head in something...literally.


created: 2003-07-19 10:44:07
subject: <b>*snif*</b>
body:
I doubt that is the case.  It's really funny though!!!!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /> may you always find water and shade <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /><br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/avi.gif" border="0" /> Aviendha <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/avi.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-19 15:23:06
subject: <b>well...</b>
body:
that explains everything <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> Female Metalhead <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />&quot;Can you hear the violins playing your song?&quot;<br /><br />R.I.P. Dimebag Darrell 1966-2004</font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-19 20:30:16
subject: <b>Now that &quot;sniff&quot; is explained-</b>
body:
Perhaps you would like to create a Theory about the &quot;snort&quot; by WoT men (and Siuan}.  The first few chapters produced snorts by no less than Rand, Perrin and Thom.  After noting those, i quit counting.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-20 19:59:28
subject: <b>This is . . . .</b>
body:
. . . . The first actually funny theory I have ever read in the Humorous Theories section.  Well done!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Brianne Aes Sedai, First Weaver of the Yellow Ajah<br />Bonded to Daniel Gaidin<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />High Priestess of academic theories<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" />Amyrlin Seat of the Wheel of Time Club in Oklahoma City<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /> <br />'Helluo librorum'<br />'Bene legere saecla vincere.' <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-21 05:53:02
subject: <b>!</b>
body:
At last!! Clarity!<br /><br />Here's me thinking all this time it was the bean stews they were all eating!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Toon Army:- The Creators choice<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/thom.gif" border="0" /> = Sir Bobby Robson IS the Creator<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/thom.gif" border="0" /> = <br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-22 01:01:28
subject: <b>uh</b>
body:
yeah that swedish drink sounds good!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Fortune rides like the sun on high<br />with the fox that makes the ravens fly.<br />Luck his soul, the lightning his eye,<br />He snatches the moons from out the sky.&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-30 16:07:41
subject: <b>um... do you mean &quot;sniffle&quot;?</b>
body:
A sniff is the &quot;dainty&quot; female equivalent of a derisive snort.  I think you're thinking of sniffles.  Nice try. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /> Survivor of Historical Inquizition ... barely <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Who can say if I've been changed for the better, but because I knew you I have been changed for good -- Wicked<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-08-24 14:39:03
subject: <b>*sniff*</b>
body:
*sniff* achoo! Bless me, oh I mean Light illumine me. *sniff*<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Never trust a skinny chef</font><p></p>


created: 2003-11-09 15:46:39
subject: <b>you need a vocabulary check...</b>
body:
seriously, this doesnt make much sense... sniffing is an action apart from a cold in Randland. it's kind of like a hmph! or roll of the eyes in our &quot;normal&quot; world. good thought, but it doesn't work out.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">A closed mouth gathers no feet<br />Democracy is the art of saying &quot;nice doggy&quot; until you can find a gun<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/loial.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perrin.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-13 20:56:03
subject: <b>idiots!!!!!!!!!!</b>
body:
you dog brains! they don't sniff IN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! they sniff OUT!!!!!! like in 'breath in, breath OUT!!!!!!!!!! just louder. you all should be ashamed of your selves!!!!!!!! sniffing in, i don't think so!!!! hello?!!!!! try it, and see!!!!   <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" />


created: 2006-01-11 20:26:00
subject:
<b>Calrafaction. (Sorry i can't spell too well<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> )</b>

body:
okay for starters not all women are on Cocaine we're just more mature. second &quot;The Sniff&quot; is a female thing to show disaproval. we don't go around yelling at the top of our lungs what a jack*** some one is (okay i do it but that's cause i can't sniff) and one more thing sniffing out is snorting not sniffing.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smackhead.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/birgitte.gif" border="0" /><br />if the people could talk they would be laughing at u and pulling their braids!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Near-sister to a_fan_of_rolan_dcs<br />Bonded to Ashaman Joey<br />Jenna al'Majere Accepted to the Grey Tower Hoping to be a Greenie.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-19 11:08:36
subject: <b>I...I don't know...</b>
body:
It's interesting and makes sense really... How could mere mortals wielding the One Power actaully stop the Dark One? It would take something much more powerfull, the Soul of the Creator's Champion? The Dragon. <br /><br />Yeah! Rand gets to die!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">PsyKyle<br /><i>Good heavens, that name sounds more cliche everytime I post...</i><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-19 11:31:32
subject: <b>It's worth thinking about, but some points are off</b>
body:
First of all, the taint was the Dark One's counter-stroke.  Kind of like if you play Ais and Allies- the attacking player goes first, but the peices he kills get to shoot back beforethey are removed from the board.  It was a one time shot: the &quot;equal and opposite reaction&quot; to the weaves of saidin that sealed him up (Jordan has admitted that his knowledge of physics influences how the OP works).  Ishamael's presence at LTT's house was not because the seals weren't working yet, but because he wasn't really sealed.  He appeared to Fain years before the seals broke, and the only one that was never seen intact in the series had to have broken in EoTW, or Aginor and Balthamel would have tracked Mat and his dagger down alot faster.  Ishamael and the taint are not evidence of an incomplete sealing, but are by-products of simple human failure.<br /><br />The theory does offer an eplanation of why Birgitte appears to have been born more than once since the AoL, while to all intents and purposes LTT was gone until Rand was born.  That's another thing.  If the re-birth of the Dragon means his soul is now in Rand, the seals should have gone while Rand was a baby.  Also, LTT and Rand are the same soul.  Either Rand's a Gray Man or LTT is not in the Bore.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-19 13:01:01
subject: <b>I really like your theory and voted &quot;thumb up&quot; but...</b>
body:
just can't agree with some parts.<br /><br />As I understand the sealing: saidin was tainted during or because of the sealing. <br />LTT &amp; Co. placed the seals and created a certain web with saidin to patch the Bore. <br />Somehow the DO get access to saidin through this web and was able to taint it. Then he and the Forsaken (except Ishy who was either didn't bound at all or only partly bound) became imprisoned.<br /><br />The idea with the Dragon's soul is interesting. <br />But I doubt that Rand will die at SG or spend his soul. Maybe LTT's soul can be used if he can leave Rand's body/mind? <br />I believe RJ stated that both, Rand and LTT, have separate souls.  <br /><br />One question, what do you mean exactly with Dragonmount being &quot;the eighth seal on the Dark One&#8217;s prison and holds Lews Therin in the bore&quot;?


created: 2003-07-19 13:10:33
subject: <b>hmmm....</b>
body:
might be... you never know what RJ's good in his head. sounds cool though.<br /><br />*note: RJ noted that this turning of the wheel was unique as compared to others... this is going to give credit to your theory. maybe LTT did botch up the sealing of the bore!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;I am now going to tell you something that probably no other fantasy writer would ever tell you: I&#8217;m making it up.&quot;<br />-Terry Goodkind-<br /><br />LOL<br /><br />&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" />valar morghulis<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" />&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;</font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-19 14:07:32
subject: <b>nope</b>
body:
this is just a case of stupidity<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Balefire78 <br /> warder to Min farshaw<br />and Danea sedai and nynaeve mandragon<br /><br />ITS ONLY A FLESHWOUND!</font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-19 15:56:02
subject: <b>What?</b>
body:
That has got to be the one of the most bizarre, completely out there theories I have ever read.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Life is not tried it is merely survived if  you're standing outside the fire.&quot;<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> Kwestfall06 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-19 16:42:47
subject: <b>Points for originality, but</b>
body:
Lews Therin can't be in the Bore, because then he never could've been in the prolouge for tEotW, and Dragonmount can't be the eighth seal; all the cuendillar seals have been seen and accounted for. Rand, I believe, has all of t hem that remain unbroken.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br /><i>I will try. Before surrendering to dreams or death, I will try.<font color="black"></font></i></font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-19 21:42:30
subject: <b>I thought he was bound by the horn...</b>
body:
that's why all the heros recognized his soul and replacement  body when they saw Rand in Falme.<br />The forsaken have given no indication that he has been in the bore with them 3000 yr.<br /> Does the bore need his soul to seal it? no evidence for that--that is a wild guess with nothing from the book that I have read to back it up.  any proof- quotes- foreshadowing? eh? <br /><br /><br /><br /><br />


created: 2003-07-19 22:12:40
subject: <b>hmm</b>
body:
&quot;As I understand the sealing: saidin was tainted during or because of the sealing. <br />LTT &amp; Co. placed the seals and created a certain web with saidin to patch the Bore. <br />Somehow the DO get access to saidin through this web and was able to taint it. Then he and the Forsaken (except Ishy who was either didn't bound at all or only partly bound) became imprisoned.&quot;<br /><br />this made me think. i always thought of the taint as being said and done, but if the seals allowed the DO to touch saidin maybe if all the seals were broken the taint would go away. like the taint isnt a one time permanent thing the DO has to continuosly taint it. of course that gives me a different idea, everyone thinks the taint was the DO counterstroke to the seals, but that is just what everyone thinks, what if the taint was just a biproduct of the patch, a big load a saidin all entwined with the DO?? i dont know about this theory, but that really makes me think. perhaps this is why LTT rants about breaking the seals maybe he figured it out. of course this would free the DO and bring on a whole host of new problems but maybe breaking all the seals was an alternitive way to cleanse the taint.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Whelp, I'm rich! So long losers who I've always hated.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-20 01:32:37
subject: <b>soul of the dragon</b>
body:
Why is Rand the Dragon REBORN? Has there ever been any other references to dragons being reborn? No. ' Let the Dragon ride again the winds of time.' - back of dust jacket from PoD. The DRAGON comes again. Not the reborn one, but the original one. LTT. The art of self-sacrifice for the good of the world is the most noblest of deeds in literature. I agree that LTT should have died in sealing the bore. Mins viewing, and prophecy; that both did live and one must die. LTT should have died. Maybe the DOs taint was intended to keep LTT alive, but mad and unknowing that he should have died. He realises it now, in his lucid moments, but cant do a thing about it. He wants the seals broken so that he can release the rest of his soul and reseal the bore - with saidar added to the mix.<br /><br />BTW, what is the female equivalent of the taint? there is/was one there. It states it in 'With the Choedan Kal'.<br /><br />Also, if one half of the OP can create cuendillar, what happens when the 2 halves are used together? Perhaps that is why the seals failed? Maybe for OP to stand its opwn against the TP, both sides must be in evidence.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Balefried<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-20 02:55:46
subject: <b>reply to comment above^</b>
body:
I think <i>Saidar</i> makes white Cuandillar (as we have seen), while <i>Saidin</i> makes black Cuandillar (like in the discs <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> ). And, that although only Saiding was used to make the actual seal, both Saidin and Saidar were used to make the material components of the seal (the discs); both halves could have worked on the same piece of iron, or seperate pieces that were melded together.<br /><br />Just an opinion.... (that protects me from reproach)


created: 2003-07-20 05:27:05
subject: <b>Very novel theory</b>
body:
This is a very novel theory.  It might be true, but the thing that keeps bothering me is that, at least in a sense, Rand is LLT.  They are both incarnations of a single soul.  Oh, it all makes my head hurt.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I love Trillessa</font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-20 10:32:30
subject: <b>if I understand correctly</b>
body:
You are saying that the original sealing was imperfect, and when LTT died, he used his soul (or maybe part of it?) to &quot;caulk&quot; the weaknesses in the sealing, however imperfectly, since Ishamael was still able to gain access to Randland.  <br /><br />That would certainly explain some things, like LTT's insanity.<br /><br />So if all the seals break, then LTT gets freed totally.  Does he have a plan to re-seal the bore, or does he just not care anymore?


created: 2003-07-20 17:44:18
subject: <b>Lews</b>
body:
interesting theory, but I have read in one of the books that there is a third voice in Rand's head, so I think that Rand is at least the third Dragon.  So that would mean that LTT has tried to free himself at least once but the other person was not as strong as Rand or the seals were still too strong to break.  It may take all three soals to complete the sealing.


created: 2003-07-20 19:53:50
subject: <b>Quite fascinating . . .</b>
body:
I really don't think there is an eighth seal, but the rest made a great deal of sense.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Brianne Aes Sedai, First Weaver of the Yellow Ajah<br />Bonded to Daniel Gaidin<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />High Priestess of academic theories<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" />Amyrlin Seat of the Wheel of Time Club in Oklahoma City<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /> <br />'Helluo librorum'<br />'Bene legere saecla vincere.' <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-20 23:17:41
subject: <b>Thumbs down</b>
body:
Was actually a well thought-out theory, and it could be true except for one thing...<br /><br />The counterstroke, as someone else said, took place during the sealing. Here's an analogy: hurl yourself at a brick wall, REALLY FAST. Note how you're probably bleeding and are in pain and probably have brick-dust all over you (yes, brick-dust :p). I think that's basically what happened, with the wall being the DO's prison and you being saidin.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Proud president of the Society of People Who Make Up Societies And Pretend To Be The President Of Said Societies<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/w00t.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> People put WAY too many smileys in their sigs... <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/w00t.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-21 00:12:46
subject: <b>Eight seals?</b>
body:
No, sorry.  The seals are actually weaves of saidin, not cuendillar discs. The discs are just focus points for the seals.  Also, if LTT sealed himself up when he made Dragonmount, then why was Elan Morin Tedronai saying &quot;you won't escape?&quot; afterwards?  Why not &quot;well you're caught too and this won't last forever?&quot;<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-21 16:20:42
subject: <b>Um, Rand isn't soulless.</b>
body:
Good theory. i like it, but the problem i see (dunno if anyone's mentioned it already, i ain't got time to read the whole blackboard) is that if the Dragon's soul is in the bore, then is part of Rand at Shayol Ghul constantly? is the soul not connected to the body?<br />Oh dear. much to deep for me...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">The almost but not quite totallly not lucid one <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-purple.gif" border="0" /> or <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" />? Decisions decisions....</font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-21 22:31:22
subject: <b>Lanfear did what?</b>
body:
I was alternating between head nods and head shakes, but this part seems odd.  At the end, the theorist posits that after TG (assuming the good guys win), the Patch is reinstated, which in this case means the Dragon's soul.  Until someone like Lanfear comes along and bores a new hole.  HUH?  Are you suggesting that in the AoL, Lanfear and Biedomon made a hole through LTT's soul to create the Bore?  While he was flesh and blood?  Wouldn't he have gone nuts on the spot - or died?  But we know he didn't.  I like the idea that something mystical and as-yet-to-be-explained-by-RJ about the Dragon's blood seals the Seal securely, but his actual soul?  I'm not so sure.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Live as if you were living for the second time and had acted as wrongly the first time as you are about to act now.  -VF</font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-22 04:56:45
subject: <b>Didn't....</b>
body:
Didn't one of the books mention (along with the fighting a thousand upon a thousand times) that a few times the Dragon was turned to the darkness?  (Meaning, I know it does I'm just way too lazy to look it up at the moment.)<br /><br />If that that *can* happen, then sealing the DO's prison solely with the Dragon's soul (pun very much intended thank you) would be an utterly asinine thing for the Creator to do.  And I can't believe that the Creator would hinge all of Creation on that.  It's simply too risky.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Well Mom, that's because I hate your cretinous friends, and if I did somehow get drunk and knocked up, I'd be skewering your unborn grandchild with a knitting needle right now.<br /><br />-Krakow 2.0<br /><br />http://www.nerdparadise.com</font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-25 05:13:55
subject: <b>Critics.</b>
body:
A few of people have decided to criticise my theory I&#8217;ll answer a few.<br /><br />To Cannoli: Ishamael was improperly sealed in the prologue of tEoTW because LTT wasn&#8217;t dead and the DO could partially remove him from the bore with his reduced power that was the human error that allowed Ishy to break free. The seals of the DO&#8217;s prison were held in place because they hold the part of the patch made of saidin not LTT&#8217;s soul hence they were intact even after LTT began to take control and supplant Rand&#8217;s soul in Rand&#8217;s body.<br /><br />To Etzel: Quote myself. &#8220;C) The DO tainted the patch made of saidin and like a virus the DO&#8217;s touch spread to taint all saidin&#8221;. The DO tainted the patch made of saidin and the taint on the patch tainted all saidin.<br /><br />To Balefire78: Screw you.<br /><br />To Kwestfall_2006: I&#8217;m aware of that.<br /><br />To Crazy ol Lews Therin: LTT was in the prologue to tEotW because the sealing was flawed would stay that way until LTT died.<br /><br />To General Wooly: Rand is LTT (not LLT) reborn because LTT is transplanting Rand&#8217;s soul with his own (possibly his mind too) and then the Dragon&#8217;s soul can fill the patch later on.<br /><br />To Deaths lawyer: I said saidin was thrown at the bore, not the intact prison walls.  Heres your analogy used by someone who has actually read my theory. You hurl yourself at a hole in a brick wall really really fast get through like you wanted, you don&#8217;t bounce and don&#8217;t end up bleeding and in pain.<br /><br />To Lady Stoic: LTT and Rand have separate souls LTT is trying to slowly transplant Rand&#8217;s soul with his own which keeps him and LTT separate,<br /><br />To Comet Sedai: Lanfear and Biedomon&#8217;s drilling had essentially the same effect as LTT &amp; CO improperly sealing the bore. They flawed it so the DO could have a partial presence on earth but a large part of his power was kept away. The Dragon&#8217;s soul began to seep into LTT but because it was done properly last time no ones mind or thoughts came with it. LTT struck to early if he had held off with the sealing until the DO was totally free he would have died and the Dragon&#8217;s soul would have sealed up the bore again.<br /><br />To OmnipotentEntity: Let&#8217;s look at something. Everyone says the DO can give people immortality but Aginor and Balthamel had aged while held in the bore.  What actually happens when the DO feels generous is he lets you die of natural causes, refreshes your body and reincarnates you in time to attend your own funeral, like he has done to Moridin, Cyndane, Osan&#8217;gar and Aran&#8217;gar. If the Dragon defects to the DO he grows to old age, dies and his soul goes straight to the bore and everyone is happy.<br /><br />The Dragonmount idea is the mountain is to LTT&#8217;s soul as the seven seals are to the saidin patch, when it erupts (I think it&#8217;s a volcano) the DO breaks free and Rand/LTT kicks his arse, I said it was a hunch.<br />


created: 2003-07-25 06:54:36
subject: <b>My point was...</b>
body:
<b> Quote myself. &#8220;C) The DO tainted the patch made of saidin and like a virus the DO&#8217;s touch spread to taint all saidin&#8221;. The DO tainted the patch made of saidin and the taint on the patch tainted all saidin. </b><br /><br />that the DO didn't taint saidin <i> after </i> he was sealed away as you say in the theory but in the moment of sealing or during the sealing when he was still free. <br />The DO wasn't able to stop the sealing but could taint saidin through LTT and Co's saidin weave. <br /><br />After the sealing was complete the DO could not influence the world any longer (for some time).<br />


created: 2003-07-26 19:01:16
subject: <b>Etzel is right</b>
body:
<b>that the DO didn't taint saidin after he was sealed away as you say in the theory but in the moment of sealing or during the sealing when he was still free. <br />The DO wasn't able to stop the sealing but could taint saidin through LTT and Co's saidin weave. <br /><br />After the sealing was complete the DO could not influence the world any longer (for some time).<br /></b><br /><br />Also, I don't agree with the theory. It's just... LTT was a freshly sane man who had lost everything. His death was a suicide, not an act against the DO. DM can't be a focal point/seal.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-27 20:23:25
subject: <b>also...</b>
body:
LTT's soul and Rand's soul, are the SAME SOUL - if LTT's soul were trapped in the seal, so too would Rand's, and it couldn't be reborn and then be Rand's soul (confusing, eh?). As to LTT being in Rand's head, well it's LTT's personality sharing the soul and Rand's body - not 2 souls one body, but 2 personalities 1 soul/body.


created: 2003-07-29 22:49:15
subject: <b>Very interesting theory</b>
body:
This is something to think about.  Not sure if I agree, but I like the different thought.<br /><br />Re: LTT dying.  I tend to agree with a mesh of Geer in his theory &quot;Lews Therin Never Died&quot;, and those who replied to his theory.  I don't think LTT died.  That everyone says the Dragon will be reborn is because everyone believes he died.  Thus &quot;let the dragon ride again on the winds of time&quot; is a more accurate description - you, yourself, can ride again if you have been trapped or locked away....  LTT trapped himself... somewhere.  Perhaps if the Dragon's soul is part of the DO's prison that could explain where his soul went (the &quot;eighth seal&quot; absolutely_no_one refers to - 7 seals as a focus for the seal on the bore, and dragonmout as a focus for the &quot;soul&quot; part of the real prison).  LTT told Rand &quot;You never escape the traps you weave for yourself&quot; ... or something like that, he also beggs for death.... Anyway, that's all covered in the other post.  I just wanted to point out a possible link between the two theories.<br /><br />Bravo on creativity and uniqeness. (sorry I can't spell)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /> Survivor of Historical Inquizition ... barely <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Who can say if I've been changed for the better, but because I knew you I have been changed for good -- Wicked<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-08-09 16:46:34
subject: <b>very interesting</b>
body:
I liked your theory, I mean it was very well thought out and intricate which sounds like how RJ likes to do things heheh.  I'm not sure as to what the answers are but that sounds as good as most of the theories I've heard so congrats <br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/blush.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/blush.gif" border="0" /> my geekiness is showing <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/blush.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-08-17 23:03:53
subject: <b>neigh to the bore</b>
body:
I have been reading the theory and comments on the thoery with mixed feelings here.  I'd like to start off by saying that Lews Therin is NOT in the bore.  He and the hundred companions sealed up the bore and caught all of the forsaken in it expet Ishmael was very close to the surface when he was sealed so he could still touch the world. Allow me to quote the shadow rising pg 433 &quot;Do you have news, warman?....I suppose i can tell you, though it is not confirmed.  We have a report that Lews THerin led the Companions on a strike at Shayol Ghul this morning at down.  SOmething is disrupting communications, but the report is the Bore has been sealed, with most of the Forsaken on the other side, Maybe all of them.&quot;  Therefore showing that Lews THerin can not be trapped in the Bore if he sealed himself in it. and how could he be in the prolouge of the eye of the world if he was sealed also.  I can't find it now but i also remember the forsaken talking about how ishmale was always proud he was only partly sealed.  as to the question on weather Lews Therin is in dragon mount i have this to say.  I beilive that lews THerin sealed his soul away in dragon mount be it accident or on purpose.  it says in the eye of the world that he channeld nothing but pure spirit which could have sealed away his soul.  and then we have Rand being born on the slopes of dragon mount. now i beilive that when Rand was born Lews THerin's soul merged with Rand and his body.  disagree with me if you want but i'd i think that's how it happend feel free to prove me wrong if you can to those of you who think LT is in the bore.


created: 2004-07-30 17:21:48
subject: <b>Father of LIES</b>
body:
This is my 1st posting so bear with me please.<br /><br />I know ppl get slated for going off topic but this keeps on cropping up in several different theories so I thought I would just mention it once and for all.<br /><br />People keep on referring to the fact that there was one (or more) dragon/s that turned to the dark, now this came about courtesy of the DO aka Father of LIES aka tricky bugger. (or one of his minions in a dream - ok i admit i havent read the books for 2 1/2 years now, waiting for next installment) I believe that there was never a dragon that went over to the DO because that would have caused way too many complications with continuing the Wheel, and remember that the DO does not always tell the truth so really, why do you have to believe every word he says... ?<br /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /> I reached for the stars... and burnt my fingers on the sun <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />


created: 2004-09-03 04:44:18
subject: <b>break the seals</b>
body:
I disagree with this theory. I think that LTT wants to &quot;break the seals&quot; to bring the last battle quickly, so that he can be put out of his misery. He has been mourning his wife and violent deeds since Ishamael gave him enough lucidity to understand what he had done. He's been conscious, in a sense, of his crimes for 3000 years. That's the ultimate definition of hell. I don't think in the normal reincarnation of a sould that he is supposed to be aware--I think that this is a strange occurance that happened because of the painful nature of his death. He knows he will die in the last battle, and yearns for that peace.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Show me the Frangipani.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-22 18:51:21
subject: <b>Cadsuane is not Black</b>
body:
Don`t know if this will be the 1st posting, or not.  The title said there were 0 postings!<br /><br />Anyway, your evidence is right on.  I have more evidence, buy will have to research.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-22 18:53:10
subject: <b>i agree</b>
body:
also i think that moiraine thought cadsuane was black in NS because cad suggested moiraine travel w/ a sister that turned out to be black. i dont think cad knew she was black, however. but i believe that is what made moiraine suspicious.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Whelp, I'm rich! So long losers who I've always hated.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-22 18:54:29
subject: <b>Agreed</b>
body:
The POV is very clear, and characters are never right about anything. Moiraine thought she was black to give an interesting confrontation when she returns.


created: 2003-07-22 22:58:53
subject: <b>Min said</b>
body:
that Rand can trust Caddie-poo and what Min says is good enough for me. So I agree with the theory--right on!    I think Moraine was paranoid about EVERYBODY during that time in NS.  Was the cousin definately Moraine or did that refer to the guy who became Slayer?


created: 2003-07-23 01:04:09
subject: <b>It's not much I know</b>
body:
But it was annoying me that people continue to suggest she might be Black, so I thought I'd just spell it out officially.<br /><br />I think what Moiraine was doing in the borderlands was about Rand and the Eye.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;I can express more emotion than laughter, anger and let's . . .&quot;<br /><br />Shooganooga<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-23 01:28:42
subject: <b>agreed</b>
body:
cad could also be refering to the time when morraine found Lan in the borderlands, or the first time she was at the eye of the world. she's been hunting for the dragon for awhile now. plus don't forget when caddie was questioning the aei sedia when she first appeared, she asked if the the sister(can't remember which) was invovled in the messiness/ugliness(?) around the aiel war, and i believe it was mentioned at some point that the black ajah was involved or something (I NEED MY BOOKS BACK!!!!)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Fortune rides like the sun on high<br />with the fox that makes the ravens fly.<br />Luck his soul, the lightning his eye,<br />He snatches the moons from out the sky.&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-23 02:39:49
subject: <b>Of course!</b>
body:
In Cadsuane's POVs she also refers to Shai'tan as DO (not Great Lord) and thinks about Forsaken (not Chosen).<br /><br />It's obvious...


created: 2003-07-23 07:59:37
subject: <b>huh?</b>
body:
is this new? I think I've read about cad's POV proving she isn't black several times in different theories.  I didn't think this was really a matter of debate.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">--If they ever come up with a swashbuckling School, I think one of the courses should be Laughing, Then Jumping Off Something--</font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-23 11:26:43
subject: <b>Clarifying some matters</b>
body:
drownedmouse:<br /><br />Caraline`s cousin that Cadsuane was referring to was Luc, Tigraine`s brother, Rand`s first cousin.<br />Also, Min said Cad would teach Rand and the Asha`man something they all had to learn, not that Rand could trust her.<br /><br />zoot132:<br /><br />Moiraine was in the Borderlands looking for the baby born on Dragonmount {the Dragon Reborn}, or information about what happened to him.  It took her almost 18 years to find him!<br /><br />To add to the pot, somewhere in the WoT series, I think LoC, Siuane also voiced her suspicions to Egwene that Cad was Black.  This obviously stems from the Borderland incidents in NS.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-23 13:13:11
subject: <b>Cousin is Moiraine</b>
body:
<b>Caraline`s cousin that Cadsuane was referring to was Luc, Tigraine`s brother, Rand`s first cousin.</b><br /><br />No.  She's referring to Moiraine, and as you say, her search for the Dragon Reborn during the time period covered in New Spring.<br />


created: 2003-07-23 13:56:21
subject: <b>DO you people even read these books?</b>
body:
Luc is not related to Caraline.  His sister married a member of Caraline's family.  The cousin Cadsuane refers to is Moiraine as somebody says above, and to Cadsuane's eye, she was up to something in New Spring (and she was), so Cadsuane has been keeping an eye on her to find out what.  Don't forget, one or possibly both of the sisters she told off to watch Moiraine turned up dead.<br /><br />As for the idea that she may be Black; well that was Siuan and Moiraine who came up with that suspicion.  We've seen how well their brains work, which is to say, not very well at all.  Every plan they have come up with has either gone disatrously wrong, or it can clearly be seen that it would have had horrible repercussions for the good guys. Anybody who believes something just because they thought so is in for trouble.  The only person who trusts Siuan wholeheartedly is Egwene, and she's doing so well right now, isn't she?  Siuan couldn't even pay enough attention to the Hall to see Elaida had gathered enough support to depose her!  The only thing she's good at is identifying patterns.  Her role should be like Balwer - Merely to present evidence and let others draw their conclusions, unless they're idiots like Egwene (who Siuan refuses to manipulate as pennance for all the genuinely useful things she's done since her stilling).<br /><br />Sorry about the vitriol, I'm reading Naked Empire and my tolerance for stupid literary characters is at a Goodkin-influenced low.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-23 20:02:54
subject: <b>Teach him laughter and tears</b>
body:
Cadsuane also says she needs to teach him laughter and tears again, else his winning TG may not be much better than losing it.  Again, doesn't sound very Black...<br /><br />I agree Cadsuane is certainly not BA. I also agree it shouldn't have been necessary to have a &quot;Theory&quot; about it, particularly not such a non-Theory Theory.


created: 2003-07-23 20:48:19
subject: <b>You speak true.</b>
body:
I like a good flat piece of evidence. No foreshadowing, no glimmers. Just flat evidence.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">PsyKyle<br /><i>Good heavens, that name sounds more cliche everytime I post...</i><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-24 10:12:37
subject: <b>Ummm...yeah</b>
body:
That's pretty much what I came up with.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br /><i>I will try. Before surrendering to dreams or death, I will try.<font color="black"></font></i></font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-24 13:18:56
subject: <b>Verin spared her</b>
body:
I don't have my books handy, but I remember a passage wherein Verin &amp; Cadsuane are talking.  The passage is from Verin's POV, and she is about to pour wine (or maybe tea, but I think wine) for the two of them to drink while they talk.  Cadsuane makes a comment about Rand that I can't quite remember, but what I DO remember is that Verin refrained from poisoning Cadsuane's wine and thought inwardly to herself that it was good to finally be sure of her.  I realize the thought referred to Cadsuane's intentions toward Rand and not her status as Black or Green, but I do NOT believe that Verin is Black and I can't imagine she would think such a thing to herself unless she were absolutely sure Cadsuane's intentions were not to serve the Shadow's design.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />  Erith  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />The higher, the fewer.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-25 00:52:39
subject: <b>This is rather obvious...</b>
body:
But a clarifing theory always helps.  <br /><br />The only issue I see with the technical body of this theory is the final evidence... perhaps Cadsuane could have been looking for Black's in an attempt to manipulate herself higher within their heirarchy... Since blacks are limited to knowing only a few of their ranks, imagine what having the knowledge of more than those few could get you...<br /><br />However, all of the points in the subsequent follow-up chatter rather prove the theory... it's just that the theory was a little thin to my abstract-logic thinking mind.  Of course, I've never believed she was Black, but I like thinking of counter-arguments just to annoy people.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">~~Aolani<br /><br /><br /><br />&quot;Everybody's seen the things they've seen<br />We all have to live with what we've been&quot;  <br />~-~ Bruce Cockburn, Justice<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-26 16:01:19
subject: <b>Feeling up for it...</b>
body:
I just felt like pointing out that the part about 'Caraline Damodred's cousin searching in the borderlands' was most probably Moiraine Damodred Aes Sedai know-it-all searching for the Eye of The World for the first time <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br />And clearly Cadsuane doesn't approve<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">There was ultimate peace in the world.<br />Then the Creator gave us clubs.<br />...Well, He gave us wood, but we all know what he meant!</font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-27 18:09:05
subject: <b>Dragon Reborn</b>
body:
Zoo1132. Don't know if this is what you are looking for, but in NS Moiraine went to the Borderlands to interview Jurine Najima about her baby, Jerid, possible Dragon Reborn.  Baby Jerid and his father died in a mysterious fire. He was also born in the wrong place.


created: 2003-07-28 17:59:48
subject: <b>um....</b>
body:
DUH!!!!!!!!!!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">It is said the Devil has the best tunes.<br />This is broadly true. But Heaven has the best choreographers.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-29 11:05:13
subject: <b>OrangeAjah &amp; Cannoli</b>
body:
Thanks for pointing out my error about Luc. <br /><br />I do in fact, read the books and love them.  My only excuse for the error is that some of my memories ended up in the Re-cycle or &quot;Delete&quot; permanantly!  <br /><br />Is this forgivable for a 72 year old?<br /><br />Now, I would like to see a little contrition for endlessly bashing the WoT females.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-29 18:40:43
subject: <b>contrition?</b>
body:
i don't think anyone should feel bad for bashing WoT females... too many (egwene, nynaeve and elayne) are so uninteresting, dense and petty that it's impossible not to hate them... they have the collective IQ of... of... NARG!<br /><br />For all those that hate Faile, at least she's not stupid... really honestly dense women in high positions deserve a lot more criticism than she does...


created: 2003-07-30 00:27:43
subject: <b>Sorry about the implied insult.</b>
body:
I didn't mean to nit-pick over getting one detail wrong, it was some of the other people's conclusions based on a misinterpretation of a fairly obvious reference, that makes them spin entire supposed backstories which fly in the face of the books' actual content.  Go older people!<br />I won't apologize for female bashing, however.  There is nothing wrong with the WoT females as a group.  Nynaeve and Elayne are two of the best characters, and so are many of the supporting characters.  And Jordan should get props for making Egwene so thoroughly and believably incompetant, stupid and juvenile.  The problem, by the rules of WoT, is that male and female influences need to balance each other out for things to work properly, and too many of the evil females (really only Egwene and Siuan) are converts to a system of single-gender power monopolization, which skews their perspectives (and Min, another incompetant, was raised by three single women).  Except for the White Tower, every country or culture, even if dominated by women, has some sort of corresponding or balancing role for a male power figure.  Witness the division of political power among the Sea Folk, Aiel, and in Tarabon and Arad Doman.  The other countries don't really seem to care what gender you are when it comes to appropriation of power.  Only the Tower is completely out of balance, with most sisters rejecting even social interaction with men.  That's why female characters are hated so universally.  There is no male-dominated system to create equally loathsome male characters.  The Whitecloaks have never really been revealed as anti-women, though it wouldn't suprise me, and there have not been enough PoV of Whitecloaks to really get a three-dimensional wretch in the scale of Egwene, Min or Siuan.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-31 09:51:03
subject: <b>To Cannoli</b>
body:
Although I agree with most of your comments I do not understand why you include Min, as she is one of the very few characters who are doing everything in their power to help Rand directly. She's also not manipulating him, but directly telling him what she think he should do. Secondly, are you quite sure about the Whitecloaks and Amadicia? We haven't seen a single woman in a position of power among the Whitecloaks.


created: 2003-07-31 18:47:16
subject: <b>Completly Agree</b>
body:
ditto<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">To be honest with you I don't believe on . . . <br />REINCARNATION or REBIRTH, it just doesn't feel right.<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lan.gif" border="0" /> Bonded to Locin Sedai <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/avi.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-08-01 11:25:12
subject: <b>Cannoli</b>
body:
Thanks for clarification.  We can agree to disagree about Egwene, Siuan and Min.<br /><br />BTW, we do not have an all male organization in the Black Tower to balance for RJ.  Also, as above post pointed out, there are NO women in the White Cloaks, but plenty of despicable characters.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2003-08-13 14:58:23
subject: <b>If anyone should be contrite . . .</b>
body:
. . . it should be RJ.  He&#8217;s the one who writes women as having a pathological aversion to directness (yes, even Min) and incessantly manipulating men, except when they&#8217;re too busy taking off their tops and spanking each other (quick, count the number of times in the book a man has spanked or switched another man). <br /><br />It&#8217;s interesting that Min is generally the most likeable of all the women, as she looks sexy showing off her daggers and her tight trousers, but she has actually been totally useless in every fight at which she&#8217;s been present. She&#8217;s basically a sex kitten who looks most adorable when she&#8217;s showing off her cute little claws.<br /><br />Sorry if this sounds like generic RJ bashing, it&#8217;s not meant to be.  I like the series and am a minority of one who believes that CoT is one of top 4 or 5 books simply because the quality of the writing is so much better than the last few, even if it doesn&#8217;t add enough new pieces to the puzzle.  I just like the series in spite of the view of women it postulates.<br />


created: 2003-08-14 19:27:51
subject: <b>As far as the Black Tower goes...</b>
body:
Rand was careful to make sure their families stayed with them to give them a sense of perspective.  Note that none of the &quot;bad&quot; Asha'man have bonded an Aes Sedai, while Logain's faction  do things the ordinary way and seem to be avoiding overuse of the Power (perhaps a way of remembering they're still human? ).  And some people take exception to my analysis of Min claiming she's the only one doing anything useful.  Even Egwene is marginally more useful than Min, though she loses sight of the big picture and concentrates on prosecuting one of those petty squabbles Rand complained about to Bashere in FoH.  Anyway, Min does nothing useful except her viewings, and since they will come to pass anyway, they really aren't needed, are they?  Cadsuane is going to teach Rand something, and she would have whether or not Min told Rand to accept her.  Her viewings about bad things about to happen have not prevented a single one.  She whiffed with those knives she's good at flashing at good guys the one time it really counted (vs. Fain), and she encourages Rand's various psychosis by sticking with him no matter what.  He tells her a man is dead, and he killed him, and all she can think is getting into bed with him to make him feel better!  Her only use is a human blanket when he is knocked unconscious!  She defends Rand even when his friends try to give him advice for his own good, and doesn't even bother to keep the bond a secret when it is a hideous vulnerability the Dragon Reborn really doesn't need his enemies to know about (she's also endangering Elayne, since eventually someone is going to say &quot;Hey how did Min bond him anyway?  Wait a minute, isn't her best friend since Book 2 Elayne Trakand?  Maybe she has something to do with this&quot; ).<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


created: 2003-12-30 16:35:16
subject: <b>Right on</b>
body:
I agree, Cadsuane is not BA, and I think this totally qualifies as a theory. It's my favorite kind, short, sweet and to the point.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sister to Nossy<br />Shot swapper with a_fan <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br />Bonded to Phil Reborn and Sidious<br />&quot;Mommies are like wizards&quot; ~ CVH <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br />The fact that I don't agree with you in no way means I didn't understand you.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-04-05 17:49:41
subject: <b>Women-argue</b>
body:
Okay... this is how it is:<br /><br />We do NOT like Egwene. Reason:<br />She thinks entirely too much of herself. She keeps on looking down at Rand, as if she is any better. Well, she does try hard, but in spite of that she just can't seem to get anything right. All her present accomplishments as Amyrlin can be credited to Siuan. She thinks she is so perfect, and doesn't need any help at anything (Entering the world of dreams behind the Wise Ones backs). She has got THE WORST ATTITUDE of all the characters - You can see it from the beginning: &quot;Ooooh, I am so great; I am wearing my hear in a braid. I am going to dance by the spring-pole just to make Rand jealous. Did I really make that stone glow?? Ooooh! Why does the male channelers have the best powers? I can't stand not being best!&quot;. Gradually it changes into: &quot;I am going to be the greatest Amyrlin of all times. I won't let the hall take decide anything, 'couse I am always right. I will do anything in my power to make Nynaeve feel bad. I enjoy forcing discusting liquid down her throat. Rand thinks entirely too much of himself (As if she doesn't!).&quot; Egwenes problem is that her ambitions doesn't match up with her intelligence at all. She needs to get some respect drummed into her head...!<br /><br />We DO like Min, however:<br />She likes Rand for what he is. Even though she isn't always the smartest, she is genuine. And she does have a sense of humor. And most important of all, she is a real SEX-MACHINE! Who would be tending for Rands sexual needs if not her? If she wasn't there, TG would already have been lost.<br /><br />We DO like some of Nynaeves sides, and we DO not like some of her other sides:<br />Positive: Nynaeve does everything with the best intentions. She lives for healing. She is a funny person and loves Lan. She is AGAINST the all women-environment in the Tower. She cares crately of all the Two Rivers-people, and thinks about their best, not what's best for the Tower. She was there for Rand when he really needed it (Cleansing). No respect for Amyrlin <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />.<br />Negative: Obviously she has a problem with anger. She still thinks of Rand, Mat and Perrin as children. She does not look at egwene as a child. She is way too sulky. Has no respect whatsoever.<br /><br />Aviendha: We DO like her:<br />She is against the white Tower, all women-thing. She does not tell Rand what he wants to hear (like Min), but what he needs to hear. She has a corky personality wich is pretty much likeable. She is funny when she acts aiel-strange. She totally wanted to have sex with Rand in TFoH. She shows respect when she ought to.<br /><br />Elayne: She is just WEIRD.<br />She has a tendency to just be there without playing a part. She loves Rand. She bonded Birgitte. She walks on a thight rope(!). She once got drunk enough to dance naked on a table. She is really brave. Was once dead. Has a kind of neutral personality.<br /><br />We DO like Birgitte: Who wouldn't like a long dead heroine brought back from the dead who drinks like a man?<br /><br />Hope that cleared up everything! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perplexed.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smackhead.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /> LLT <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-08-10 23:56:08
subject: <b>Hmmmm</b>
body:
I seem to recall another theory concerning a certain someone eating theories. It may have been Pento, I'm not sure. It's been a while since I've read it. But I'm pretty sure there was a similar theory to this. I just wanted to provide a name to look for.


created: 2003-08-11 00:23:02
subject: <b>Yes...</b>
body:
The Theory Eater is like Big Brother, or some other government organization that keeps the general public in the dark. We can never be allowed to know the true answers to many WoT questions. The truth would destroy us all...<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br /><i>I will try. Before surrendering to dreams or death, I will try.<font color="black"></font></i></font><p></p>


created: 2003-08-11 01:22:28
subject: <b>Yeah it's definately keeping us in the dark...</b>
body:
About 18 months ago I posted a theory that said the swirling colours in Rand, Mat and Perrins head would eventually resolve into each others faces.<br /><br />EATEN!<br /><br />Curse you theory eater!


created: 2003-08-11 07:05:07
subject: <b>This has been done :p</b>
body:
Last time it was the theory eating Mike...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">You are all MAD I tell you! <br /><br />Mwahahahahahahahah! hahahhaha! hahaha....haha....ha..h....eh?<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-08-11 09:34:26
subject: <b>Yeah, Mike eats them.</b>
body:
<font color="blue"><u>http://www.wotmania.com/theorypostdbtheory.asp?ID=884&amp;Category=Humor</u></font><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">~The Vibe <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-08-11 17:58:52
subject: <b>Hmmm, admin comments aren't working again...</b>
body:
*chomp*<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Vercingetorix<br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/803.gif" /><br />Theory Post Admin<br /><br />I went to the doctor the other day and all he did was drain some blood from my neck.  Don't ever go to Doctor Acula.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-08-11 20:48:56
subject: <b>I don`t know about this.</b>
body:
A day or 3 ago, the the man in charge gave us a sample of what the submissions contained.  IIRC, all the posters agreed not to post them.<br /><br />Maybe the Theory Eater not only eats the bad ones, but his appetite has gotten so big, he`s eating the good ones, too.<br /><br />Further study is needed on this.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2003-08-12 00:04:40
subject: <b>mmmmm theories</b>
body:
*chomp*<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Whelp, I'm rich! So long losers who I've always hated.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-08-12 09:27:30
subject: <b>I have experience of this.</b>
body:
I have personal experience - none of my theories have ever made the Theory Post. The coincidental thing is that all my theories have been rubbish. Utter tripe. They vary from stating the obvious, which may have been theory number 6 when basic plot elements were being explained, to 'humorous' theories which are about as funny as Anne Robinson. (y'know... the weakest link woman... BBC2 and NBC). Perhaps the theory-eater only eats theories which, like mine, aren't any good.<br />(The thing I love about the Comment Post is that the theory eater can't get to it... maybe he's allergic to comments?)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gandalf.gif" border="0" />He who breaks a thing to find out what it is has left the path of reason.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gandalf.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-08-12 21:19:41
subject: <b>Yes it all makes sense now!</b>
body:
Bad Theory eater!<br />*smacks the Theory eater*<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I am cool, are you? <br /><br />The kicker of the seals <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <br />The flame that burned down Tar Valon <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />My arse is the Amyrlin Seat</font><p></p>


created: 2003-08-13 21:26:00
subject: <b>eating and..</b>
body:
Maybe it ate this one too, but was unable to digest it so wither passed it or regurgitated it<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">---from the island of dr.bong---<br />---the tintinabulations are only temporary---</font><p></p>


created: 2003-08-21 16:04:26
subject: <b>Who the theory eater is</b>
body:
I read a theory  that Mike eats theorys. I believe that mike and the theory eater are the same person, but the theory eater is the alternate personality  of mike.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /> Connor The Great <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sleepy.gif" border="0" /> You would here about me more but I am lazy. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sleepy.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angry.gif" border="0" /> Damn Mrs. Grey's World History 2 AP Class!!! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angry.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-08-26 21:48:26
subject: <b>Excellent Theory!!</b>
body:
May I inquire if you are a fan of Terry Pratchett?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" />Unreal Shadow<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /><br />Death comes for us all. <br />We can only chose <br />how to face it <br />when it comes. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-purple.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-11-09 15:42:36
subject: <b>Well, geez...</b>
body:
way to ruin faile's rep. i always kindof liked her...now i'm going through a mind maze of little clues and hints...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">A closed mouth gathers no feet<br />Democracy is the art of saying &quot;nice doggy&quot; until you can find a gun<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/loial.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perrin.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-08-12 15:39:03
subject: <b>Maybe...</b>
body:
I think maybe the burning drops beside the larger flame may be the future societies attached to the white tower. Like the kin which may become a sort of AS retierment society, or the Aiel wiseones which Eg. wants to link to the tower. I really don't think it has to do with the ajas as much as with these support groups.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;What I meant to say isn't what I said, but what I said is what I meant.&quot; --A day in my life</font><p></p>


created: 2003-08-12 16:03:26
subject: <b>Good catch!</b>
body:
I like it, and it makes sense to me.<br /><br />Maybe later I can contribute something constructive, at the moment only &quot;thumb up&quot;! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />


created: 2003-08-12 16:23:12
subject: <b>I agree with cdavila</b>
body:
That the smaller flames represent new connections to the tower (or more accurately that these people will be put under the Amyrlin).  It however does not disagree with this theory as it's possible the Ajah's are included in the subjugate orders.<br /><br />Overall I like the theory and it sounds very plausable.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Fyatuk Loth<br />Pope Consort to Grand Mistress Krista Sedai<br />Minister to the Way of What<br />Warder to Egwene Dreamwalker (donate WSe please)<br /><br />Currently stalking Belals Girl.<br /><br />WTF?</font><p></p>


created: 2003-08-12 18:36:04
subject: <b>Nice theory, but...</b>
body:
... I think it's very unlikely.  The Aes Sedai have their Ajah so ingrained in them that:<br /><br />a) even when they are Accepted they are guided towards the right Ajah<br /><br />b) even when they become Black, they still retain all the characteristics of their own Ajah<br /><br />c) even some of the non-AS have Ajah ingrained in them (e.g. Reanne wanting to be Green).<br /><br />Also, Robert Jordan is virtually incapable of having any member of an Ajah that does not adopt all the stereotypical characteristics of their Ajah.<br /><br />I think it most unlikely they will all lose their stereotyped identities.<br /><br /><br /><br />


created: 2003-08-12 20:48:52
subject: <b>good theory!</b>
body:
But I kind of agree with the above post.  I think it would be hard for the Aes Sedai to let go of their Ajahs, but I would definitely like to see this happen in the books.  It would be awesome.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">quite.<br /><br />somehow, Lanfear killed Asmodean - i don't know how, but she did it</font><p></p>


created: 2003-08-13 00:09:27
subject: <b>i like it</b>
body:
i had no idea what the oil meant in that dream, and your take on it seems to make sense. good work <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Whelp, I'm rich! So long losers who I've always hated.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-08-13 05:07:49
subject: <b>It's possible but...</b>
body:
perhaps it means that the Seanchan will attack the WT and cause many different &quot;Mini-Towers&quot; (Like Salidar?) to be created, some will gutter and die and others that will burn brightly and stay strong (Possibly in Seanchan under Tuon and Mat?). I did like the part about the Ajahs disolving and becoming ajahs though. All in all, a good theory, a thumbs up from me.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> Member of the Crimson Corps <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Loyal to the Dragon Reborn <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Death rides on my shoulder, death walks in my footsteps; I am death...</font><p></p>


created: 2003-08-13 09:04:06
subject: <b>oh!</b>
body:
Yeah, the droplets burning up bit made good sense, but I'd agree with what people have said--the Ajahs are simply too integral to the Aes Sedai mindset.  Also, RJ's writing does tend to categorize his characters: he mentions so-and-so's pride as being due to her being Yellow Ajah, so-and-so's temper because she's Green, etc.<br /><br />But other than that, a great theory!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/clap.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lan.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/clap.gif" border="0" /><br />Nynaeve and Lan!<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-08-13 09:10:46
subject: <b>Change is coming.</b>
body:
It is true that the Aes Sedai rigidly adhere to their Ajah and have personality characteristics that stringently agree with their Ajah. However, change is a-coming. The Age is going to end, and a new Age is beginning. We are already seeing lots of new beliefs and practices emerging in people (including Aes Sedai) who would never have believed themselves capable of changing. All that to say, while I'm not sure that this exact realignment of Aes Sedai will take place, something big will happen and this seems like a reasonable possibility. I'd really expect something even more novel, not merely a return to the practices of a former age, but a development beyond both the current and previous age.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />I need a nap.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-08-13 10:13:26
subject: <b>Interesting and plausible</b>
body:
Egwene, the Amyrlin without an Ajah, might be the perfect leader for the joined Tower.  The odd thing is, however, that the whole basis for the White Tower is an alliance of ajahs, and according to CoT, the Ajah is more important to most sisters than the Tower as a whole.  Even if the sisters are all yearnimg to reunite the Tower, the rebellion is rooted in a dispute between 2 Ajahs, and they are still more loyal to the Ajahs than their Amyrlins.<br /><br />That could be the &quot;shaking to the core&quot; however.  Before the Civil War, the USA was an alliance of States, and afterwards, the role of the Federal Government was more predominant, with the states today reduced to basically administrative districts.  The Seanchan attack during a WT civil war could end up having the same effect, particulary if the Ajah heads' plot has bad consequences or is exposed in a negative light.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


created: 2003-08-13 11:31:01
subject: <b>The Shifting Sands</b>
body:
I agree with Cannoli above. In ACoS, we see Saerin, a Yellow Sitter, Yukiri, a Gray Sitter, Doesine, A Yellow Sitter, join forces with Pevara, A Sitter from the Red, and Seaine the White Sitter that Elaida sought out to search for the Black Ajah.<br /><br /> In that same chapter, The Extra Bit, it is also mentioned that the separate Heads of the Ajahs, have been seen meeting together. This is most unusual in a WT that has been severely divided since Siuan Sanche was deposed, and mistrust between the Ajahs fomented by Elaida. <br /><br /> It appears that in these changing times, these women are foregoing their old allegiances, and working together towards a common goal.<br /><br /> We have now also seen Tarna Feir, a Red, talk about taking ash'aman as warders, something that would never have been considered before. <br /><br /> IMO, this theory is already happening.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2003-08-13 19:39:18
subject: <b>Actually, Lightinthenight, it was aPoD</b>
body:
But you guys are right (you &amp; Cannoli, I mean).  Just about everything we've seen so far involves a shake-up of the status quo.  &quot;...have to clear the rubble before you can build...&quot; can be applied to a lot more than breaking the Seals.  So much about the Tower politics indicates real change is very difficult and sisters are highly resistant to messing with the Tower.  Even Siuan, one of the more progressive Aes Sedai, gets upset when Egwene declares the novice book open to all and when she makes the sisters swear fealty, saying &quot;You're rebuilding the boat in the middle of a storm.&quot;  But if you're not allowed to make improvements to the boat, you have to wait for the storm to start tearing it apart, so you can make those improvements in the name of repairs.  <br />In order for the Tower to truly adjust to a changing world which is in danger of leaving them behind (both plans to deal with the Black Tower sound like the mice planning to put a bell on the cat-they are fussing over who is going to do it, when they're both assuming an awful lot of cooperation on the cat's part.  Aes Sedai think they'll be able to walk in and do whatever they want, without considering the Asha'man may not WANT to be Warders to their worst enemies of 3,000 years or join in defensive circle with women who don't have much experience in using the Power as a weapon), they'll need to change with the times themselves.  If they are completely broken down by the Seanchan attack, Egwene can sneak or force a lot of necessary changes to improve the Tower &quot;... whole and stronger than ever...&quot; according to Elaida's Foretelling.


created: 2003-08-14 00:23:08
subject: <b>A comment on comments.</b>
body:
There seems to be an awful lot of talk saying the RJ stereotypes the AS like their Ajah.  Nothing can be further than the truth, IMHO.  <br /><br />The problem I feel is people's difficulty in distinguishing between a person's PoV and reality.  There are a lot of PoVs where different people believe that this or that AS is a typical Brown or Green or Red, etc..  At first glance it may seem to be so.  On the other hand, most of the AS we truly know don't fit the stereotype very well at all.  Verin has many brown characteristics but she has just as much Green and Blue.  Cadsuane is a veritable rainbow of Green, Brown, Gray, Red, and Blue.  Elayne could be decribed as all those but Red.  Moraine had equal parts Blue, Green, Yellow, and possibly Brown.  Nynaeve is a mixture of yellow and green, etc..  <br /><br />We must be very careful not to fall into the same trap that many of the AS do.  Stereotyping will always have some uses, because people have a general tendancy of associating with people who share similar traits, but it only goes so far.  Many, many people violate stereotypes to a large degree and most to moderate degree.  RJ seems, to me, to have the right balance of each.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">RabidWombat<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> Let the Lord of Rambling Thoughts rule <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> Proud owner of a 2 star rating! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /> Someone stole all my cookies <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-08-14 01:09:55
subject: <b>Agree with RabidWombat</b>
body:
Afterall, I thought Elayne would be Blue Ajah since she is a political animal. We've had Reds wanting Warders and even sleeping with men, and so forth. Ajahs are just like any sterotype - good in general, useless with particular people, and RJ gives most characters enough personality to make this true.<br /><br />BTW good theory.


created: 2003-08-14 11:43:50
subject: <b>But women are guided to the right Ajah</b>
body:
and that usually depends on their personality, except for the Yellow.  When discussing the Accepted in CoT, Tarna and Pevara comment on her unsuitability for the Red Ajah based on a personality trait.  Therefore, almost all women in a particular Ajah WILL have a certain personality trait.  Further, since few sisters have friends outside their Ajahs (they've been saying that since book 2), they hang around with others of the same type, which reinforces those traits.  In recent books the arrogance of the Yellow Ajah has been commented on.  If you are naturally skilled at Healing, and like doing that more than anything else (if you have a doctor's temperment, maybe) you are steered to the Yellow Ajah.  You hang out with a bunch of women who think Healing is the most important thing in the world, and since they are the best at it, they begin to believe they're the greatest thing since sliced bread, so Yellows WILL be kind of arrogant.  Greens get along really well with men since their Ajah is supposed to be soldiers, and thus admired soldierly attitudes which are, generally speaking the sort associated with men (most women find the idea of running into certain death, or waiting for large numbers of people to come kill you, just because you are told to, to be a bit stupid.  Contrast that with Elayne's affectionate feeling towards Thom and Juilin when they refuse to leave Elayne and Nynaeve when they find out about Birgitte and Moghedian and all the rest, which she interprets as typical male bravado).  As for the White Ajah, well even if they are the smallest Ajah, it's still hard to find that many women who are naturally logical and separate their emotions from their intellectual process, so their attitudes are certainly trained into them by the Ajah itself, making all Whites likely to have somethings in common.<br />The funny thing about stereotypes and cliches is they're often true.  When did you ever see Mick Jagger gathering moss?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


created: 2003-08-16 14:29:04
subject: <b>Thanks for the badly needed Theory---</b>
body:
That the Theory Eater missed!  It has brought out great discussion.<br /><br />However, I don`t believe the Ajahs will revert to ajahs. Saranov, Canolli and Rabid Wombat have it right. <br /><br />Egwene has already started massive thinking changes in response to the supposed &quot;Forsaken&quot; handling all that OP, the Wise Women living so much longer than AS and bringing the Siege to effective reality.  BTW, it was Not Egwene who proclaimed the massive OP use to be the work of the Forsaken; it was the SAS sisters.  She merely sat and listened to the Hall`s discussion. Egwene is doing her darndest to shape the AS into ordinary human shape.<br /><br />As for the flickering oil burning out and some settling in, you may be partly right.  Egwene wants open doors to all women who channel, but herself has excused the Aiel from being a part of Tower training, and Elayne wants the Wise Women to be treated the same.<br /><br />  Some people with the idea that Egwene wants Rand to kneel to her are out of the ballpark completely.  But then, neither does she intend to have the AS kneel to Rand. She does intend to support him in his efforts against the DO.<br /><br />I`m hoping the Seanchan attack will be the catalyst for uniting the WT, Elaida deposed, the WT Hall be made up of those Sitters who fled when Siuan was deposed and the original Sitters who are still in the WT.  It is obvious that the Ajah Heads of the SAS and WT are working toward that result.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2003-08-18 02:56:36
subject: <b>Maybe</b>
body:
After all, Mesaana said once to Alviaring that the Aes Sedai of today almost mached the <i>ajah</i> at times. Whatever that was, or why it was lower case and in italics, I don't know.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br /><i>I will try. Before surrendering to dreams or death, I will try.<font color="black"></font></i></font><p></p>


created: 2003-08-22 09:58:45
subject: <b>Italics because it's Old Tongue</b>
body:
She was using the word &quot;ajah&quot; in the AoL sense, and since the language of the AoL was the Old Tongue, the word is italicized.  It probably means Mesaana put a different inflection on the word.  An example would be &quot;Amen.&quot;  In English, after saying a prayer in English, the word is pronounced AY-men.  At the end of a Latin prayer, it is pronounced AH-men.  There is probably some similar grammer rule for the old tongue that means a vowel sound in the modern language is pronouced differently than it would be in the old tongue, and Mesaana used the Old TOngue pronounciation.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


created: 2003-08-31 14:42:19
subject: <b>Ajah and ajah</b>
body:
In the AOL, according to the BWB, the ajahs were composed of men and womenb brought together in various numbers to achieve a specific task.  After the task was done, the ajah would disband, and the members would return to their normal life.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2003-09-04 00:30:39
subject: <b>White Tower is dead</b>
body:
I voted to agree because I think the White Tower is as good as dead. Proof: All the strange things going on with bonding Asha'man, the complete meaningless of the Red Ajah (even if they don't know it yet), the raizing of Aes Sedai without the oath rod (none of them will ever swear on it, especailly Nynaeve, the fact that 1/3 of the Aes Sedai are not even involving themsevles in the conflict over the split tower, the world will be broken so it only makes sense that whatever happens to the Aes Sedai, they will be changed, and finally I don't see the theme of three ta'veren changing the world, and leading it to fight in the last battle fitting together with a strong, united tower that does not follow either one of the ta'veren. They tower will not neatly come back together and then have Egwene swear fealty in the name of all Aes Sedai to Rand, and the thought of the white tower following Perrin or Mat is absurd. The white tower may die a slow, agonizing death, and a weak tower may be around for the Last Battle, but I see the Aes Sedai splitting up into their ajahs, or going off on there own.


created: 2003-09-05 16:57:35
subject: <b>To slmrcs <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /></b>
body:
<br /><br />I think you have forgotten Elaida's Foretelling about &quot;the Tower being whole and stronger than ever.&quot; Egwene will wind up ruling the Tower with almost all Aes Sedai under her control because the rest of the Foretelling states that only a <i>few</i> will be cast out and scorned.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>you know you can't leave Wotmania. It's kinda like herpes, you can just never really get rid of it.</i><br />Kit <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /></font><p><a href="http://www.cbgxtra.com/" target="_blank">Comics Buyer's Guide XTRA</a></p><p></p>


created: 2003-09-05 23:54:45
subject: <b>Elaida's fortelling</b>
body:
Yes, I did forget that, but I beleive that listening to the truth of Elaida's fortellings is like listening to the truth that an Aes Sedai speaks.


created: 2003-09-09 19:57:30
subject: <b>Could you explain that?</b>
body:
I'm feeling kind of dense and can't make sense of your response. It's me, I know.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>you know you can't leave Wotmania. It's kinda like herpes, you can just never really get rid of it.</i><br />Kit <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /></font><p><a href="http://www.cbgxtra.com/" target="_blank">Comics Buyer's Guide XTRA</a></p><p></p>


created: 2003-09-11 21:22:28
subject: <b>Elaida`s Foretelling</b>
body:
Well, bCondray, he didn`t come back to respond, but I will.  You must understand, after all the posts here and on the MB, that almost all AS are despised with a passion, especially Egwene, by a great number of wotmaniacs.  When you hit them over the head with evidence by books and pages, you get a reply like the one you got.<br /><br />Now, I agree with everything you say.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2003-08-12 16:06:20
subject: <b>Bravo!</b>
body:
I like! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Anick alSev<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /><br /><i>&quot;Till shade is gone, till water is gone,<br />into the Shadow with teeth bared,<br />screaming defiance with the last breath,<br />to spit in Sightblinder's eye on the last Day!&quot;</i><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-green.gif" border="0" /> Jedi Guardian <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-green.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-08-12 17:28:53
subject: <b>I like it too...</b>
body:
You could also compare the stagnation of music during some periods to the WT's lack of new weaving.<br /><br />The best comparison I can come up with is from the Magician books, by Feist.  In the Tursani world there is no innovation in art, just old material presented again in a new light.  even as the absorb new cultures, their culture remains dominant.  It takes Pug, an outworlder with forced devotion to the good of the empire, to shake things up a bit...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Setzer<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> The Wandering Gambler <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />&quot;'Omnia mutantur, nihil interit.' 'Everything changes, but nothing is truly lost.' Fare you well, Master Li.&quot;<br />Sandman<br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-08-12 21:36:12
subject: <b>Death Metal?</b>
body:
YEAH! ROCK ON!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">PsyKyle<br /><i>Good heavens, that name sounds more cliche everytime I post...</i><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-08-12 23:28:35
subject: <b>Nice!</b>
body:
I imagine Wilders, like Nyn and her healing, may come up with a new twist but by using your theory, it would be like a new song, without the ability to write others.<br /><br />PS. I really enjoyed the Feist books also!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-08-13 00:07:00
subject: <b>i have thought about this too</b>
body:
if you could compare weaving the OP to music. it seems like a good analogy. imagine if slash could channel hahaha <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Whelp, I'm rich! So long losers who I've always hated.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-08-13 09:07:43
subject: <b>(nod nod)</b>
body:
Yup, that could be it.  Maybe that's what RJ had in mind when he came up with the concept of the OP.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/clap.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lan.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/clap.gif" border="0" /><br />Nynaeve and Lan!<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-08-13 09:32:35
subject: <b>Good thought...should have been figured out long ago...</b>
body:
See, having read your theory, I thought to myself, &quot;Yeah, DUH.&quot; But then I realized that I had not previously come to that conclusion and furthermore that nobody I was aware of had either...<br /><br />So anyway, inasmuch as the OP is a system--which it obviously is--there certainly exists something like what you were talking about.<br /><br />So yeah, great thinking. Keep it up!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Regardless of whether the glass is 'half full' or 'half empty,' half of it is definitely in my tummy--and if I'm lucky, it's beer.&quot;<br />-A Very Wise Man</font><p></p>


created: 2003-08-13 10:47:59
subject: <b>Yes, very nice...</b>
body:
It could also fit with ter'angreal I think:<br /><br />Ter'angreal are like recorders on which a certain melody is saved. <br />When e.g. a channeler activates the ter'angreal the same melody/weave will appear which causes a certain effect.


created: 2003-08-13 20:57:07
subject: <b>Or......</b>
body:
Or they could be just remembering from what they have did in the past. Most of the time in the books they keep saying now and then that you are going to be reborn at sometime or another, maybe they are doing what comes natural for them or from what they did a couple lives ago, also coulda of made from instict that they thought could be all right. <br />Maybe that there is some rules but they also might just be things that have been reinforced that they are wrong or that they just been channeling from so many Ages that the things that could of been bad conciquince are not done in so long that they have forgot it after so many Ages.


created: 2003-08-13 23:17:50
subject: <b>wow</b>
body:
I really like the theory....<br /><br />and I especially like that observation about people, possibly wilders, knowing or remembering something from their past lives... maybe Nynavae was a healer in a past life, and she just &quot;knows&quot; how to heal, because she remembered the weave from a past life... they say once you learn how to do a weave a certain way it is hard to forget or do it any other way... it would certainly explain a lot about rand's problem with LTT... i wonder how the taint altered all this?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bela.gif" border="0" /> is the creator. <br /><br />&quot;I have always been myself, even when I was ill. Now, however, I seem myself. I have remembered how to seem.&quot;<br />-King George III, The Madness of King George</font><p></p>


created: 2003-08-14 01:14:23
subject: <b>Why Wilders have special tricks</b>
body:
I thought it was like fresh clay. Without an imprint they just decide what they want, and somehow find a way to do it. After training though, they are baked clay. They've already been told how to think, so have difficulty thinking in any new way, so can't come up with new tricks. Also, they've been told &quot;what Aes Sedi can't do is impossible&quot; so they believe nothing new can be done, making them impossible to do it.<br /><br />Evidence - we've seen that the Wise Women and Aes Sedi have different weaves for the same trick, yet once you've learnt one (or even learnt a hand signal, etc) you can't learn the other. The mind set has been cast, no improv.


created: 2003-08-21 01:04:28
subject: <b>It fits...</b>
body:
Actually, it fits in with Jordan's fondness for physics as well. Music can be broken down to component waveforms, with differnet waves adding in ways that don't fit the normal rules of everyday math. If Jordan pictures the different threads of the Power as waves from physics, the art of combining them would be virtually identical to composing music.


created: 2003-08-24 00:39:31
subject: <b>Black Metal</b>
body:
Very well thought out, by the way. <br /><br /><br />But I'm SURE the Dark One and Nae Blis compose Black Metal rather than Death. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />


created: 2003-08-26 13:45:49
subject: <b>&quot;Do Dreadlords/Forsaken play/compose deathmetal?&quot;</b>
body:
Yep. They're all metalheads in disguise.<br /><br />Demandred: Kerry King<br /><br />Moridin: Jamey Jasta<br /><br />Lanfear: Morgan Lander<br /><br />Sammael: Dave Williams<br /><br />Semirhage: Otep<br /><br />Aran'gar: Marilyn Manson<br /><br />... and so on<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> Female Metalhead <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />&quot;Can you hear the violins playing your song?&quot;<br /><br />R.I.P. Dimebag Darrell 1966-2004</font><p></p>


created: 2003-08-29 09:17:03
subject: <b>Angreal aren't instruments - they're Amps!</b>
body:
The Sa'angreal are the Spinal Tap version that can be turned up to 11. Can Rand be Jimmy Hendrix - mastering the feedback to produce music? is Callandor a Fender Stratocaster?


created: 2004-12-08 17:13:08
subject: <b>cool!!!</b>
body:
i the speedbart use the mighty power of grunge music to power my chanelling <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> let the speedbart ride again upon the winds of time <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Made the second post on the new WoTMB2 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-01-13 13:38:17
subject: <b>feist</b>
body:
Great fan of feist books (maybe the wrong place to say this but they may even be better than WOT books)


created: 2007-03-14 00:30:06
subject: <b>feist</b>
body:
Somehow I see RJ's style as in between Tolkien and Feist, even though the content of the last two is more similar.<br /><br />P.S. Feist and Jordan fanboys can peacefully coexist!


created: 2003-08-13 12:47:44
subject: <b>Good call--nice sleuthing. Keep up the good work.</b>
body:
Verrrrrrrrrry interesting.<br /><br />Have you looked into any reprecussions this might have on anything else in WoT?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Regardless of whether the glass is 'half full' or 'half empty,' half of it is definitely in my tummy--and if I'm lucky, it's beer.&quot;<br />-A Very Wise Man</font><p></p>


created: 2003-08-13 13:21:37
subject: <b>Well, don't agree with everything...</b>
body:
We learn from the Guide that the AoL had one worldwide government and parlament (or council) with democratically elected officials and its seat in Paaren Disen.<br />Not several nations or kings.<br /><br />Since the people were elected I doubt they would name themselves Rods of <i> Dominion </i>. Sounds too king like &amp; surely more than only nine people.<br /><br />But we learn also from the Guide that the Aes Sedai &quot;had their own internal governing structure through the Hall of the Servants, which was the core of the guild that controlled and regulated all those who could channel. This guild had branches in every city, town, and village that housed Aes Sedai.&quot;<br /><br />Maybe &quot;Rods of Dominion&quot; were the title of the &quot;officials&quot; or governors under the &quot;First Among Servants&quot; (LTT's title, the ruler of the Aes Sedai) and controlled &amp; organized the Aes Sedai guild in the different domains. <br />Like in the church with the pope and bishops for example.<br /><br />LTT could certainly summon such people, while it wouldn't be clear why he could summon the government since the Aes Sedai hadn't such a big position in the AoL.<br /><br />On the other hand, the Guide makes it quite clear that the Rods of Dominion were some powerful objects. <br /><br />Of course it could be a red herring and the Rods were indeed persons.<br /><br />In any case, good work!


created: 2003-08-13 13:58:01
subject: <b>Lordly Rods</b>
body:
It makes sense. To me, the Nine Rods of Dominion are like the Sitters in the Third Age White Tower or like the Cardinals in the Pope's governing Curia. Although the White Book said that the Age of Legends Aes Sedai had a council of thirteen Aes Sedai assisting the High Seat. Therefore, the Nine Rods could mean the governors of the nine regions of the world. <br /><br />Those ancient rods of dominion in our world has devolved into scepters for modern kings and queens as crowns gained greater importance. The last time a rod of dominion was used was by the Byzantine emperors. Under the emperor holding the rod were Imperial officials who showed their offices by holding a stylized baton. We have seen an example of official batons in General Bashere in the last chapter of CoT.<br /><br />Furthermore, &quot;First Among Servants&quot; is rather like the title &quot;First Among Citizens&quot; which was the primary title of the first Roman Emperor Augustus. So in essence, the world of the Age of Legends had two governments. One for the general public, the other for the Aes Sedai, in partnership for the governance of the world.<br /><br />All in all, good thinking!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Gaeran Amaconde<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />Grand Historian at the Court of the Sun<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />One of Those Chosen to Bring the Light<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" />Master of Graendal's Revels<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" />&quot;If sometimes our dreams come true, what of our nightmares?&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-08-13 14:28:55
subject: <b>Of course...</b>
body:
it could be that the Rods of Dominion were governors of the Aes Sedai guild in certain districts but everyone of them had ALSO an object called Rod of Dominion as a symbol of their power. <br />Maybe they got their names from these objects.<br /><br />I think in this case it's likely that these Rods were *angreal (this is indicated in the Guide, too) like the Ring of Tamyrlin was a symbol of power of the First Among Servants but also an *angreal.<br /><br />


created: 2003-08-13 15:37:27
subject: <b>Rods of Dominion</b>
body:
I think you may need to look again at what Ishamael said...<br /><br />&quot;Look at you. Once you stood first among the Servants. Once you wore the Ring of Tamyrlin, and sat in the High Seat. Once you summoned the Nine Rods of Dominion. Now look at you!&quot;<br /><br />The firs two sentences deal with Aes Sedai.  So does the next.  Why would the sentence about the Rods of Dominion deal with Kings?  Kind of a change of topic if you ask me.  The Nine Rods of Dominion probably just represented powerful Aes Sedai in the AOL, not Kings and lands.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Tia mi aven Moridin isainde vadin <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /> .... The grave is no bar to my call.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bela.gif" border="0" /> The horse that never dies. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bela.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" /> &quot;You cannot hide. I see you. There is no life in the void. Only... death.&quot;	<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" /><br /> </font><p></p>


created: 2003-08-13 16:51:11
subject: <b>Still dont know what they are!</b>
body:
I think this is a good well reseached theory, however the thing that struck me is that the first paragraph tells us to assume the rods of dominion are not binders, but doesnt go on to say what they acctually are!<br /><br />This is a good theory on what the rods of dominion could symbolise, and who could possess/wield them, but doesnt go into what they are.<br /><br />I agree that there are theories with good evidence against them being binding rods, but i will need more evidence of what they could be before i commit myself to a conclusion!<br /><br />Sorry to sound so picky! otherwise this is a very interesting and well thought out theory. <br />


created: 2003-08-13 18:29:17
subject: <b>i give it a thumbs up!!</b>
body:
you may very well be right, im not 100% sure yet, but all in all i think it is a good theory, well done <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Whelp, I'm rich! So long losers who I've always hated.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-08-13 19:47:05
subject: <b>Well reasoned theory-and Welcome</b>
body:
Ibelieve that RJ has said that they are not binding or oath rods.<br /><br />I like the idea that they are held by leaders of different realms of the World.<br /><br />Just an idea..Can they be held on the island of Tremalking? we`ll read and find out.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2003-08-13 20:02:36
subject: <b>one more ? for ya...</b>
body:
It has been speculated that the Aes Sadai's Oath Rod is one of the Rods of Dominion, and we know of the power that it possesses.  Assuming that the aforementioned speculation turns out to be true, what, if any, powers do the other rods possess?  Do the Shaido have one as well?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" />     Asha'Twan     <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br />To use no way as way, to have no limitations as limitiation.<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Lee Jun Fan<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-08-13 22:26:06
subject: <b>shaido</b>
body:
What AshaTwan said sparked some thought.  The Shaido made Galina swear on some kind of oath rod.  And as I remember, she recognized it.  I think that there were nine &quot;oath rods&quot; made.  These were the Rods of Dominion.  The modern AS have one, the rest were lost.  Probably one was in Ruhidean or something, or mabee one of the forsaken gave it to the shaido.  Even the name sounds right.  If one has a Rod that will make people keep their oaths, he has dominion over them, right?  Probably the rods of dominion were held by the monarchs of the time, and the word Rod of Dominion became such an integral part of the system of ruling it, that it was as widely known of as the king.


created: 2003-08-13 22:38:40
subject: <b>hmm</b>
body:
the original theory is interesting, and i have to say, while i do not agree, it is really quite a good theory and I liked it.<br /><br />&lt;thumbs up&gt;<br /><br />but the specualtion that the oath rod is one of &quot;the nine rods of dominion&quot; i 100% dont agree with. for starters, the forsaken were all AS before turning to the shadow, they obviously know what the nine rods were, yet when they refer to the oath rod, they call them &quot;binders&quot; in fact, the only reason we know of the word &quot;binder&quot; is from the POV of the forsaken and the Big White Book. <br /><br />also, i read in one of the interviews ( though im not sure which one) that RJ himself said the oath rod was not one of the nine rods. ( i may be wrong however, feel free to point it out.)


created: 2003-08-13 23:32:04
subject: <b>Um, asha'twan</b>
body:
The whole point of the theory is debunking the concept of the Oath Rod being a Rod of Dominion.<br /><br />And balefire87, where did you come up with that statistic?  We have no idea how many binders were made.  The one in the White Tower has a &quot;3&quot; on it.  The one with the Shaido says &quot;111&quot;.  that's a mere 102 more than 9, by the way. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="images/personalsmilies/80.gif" /><br /><br />Bad Ash<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-08-14 00:49:08
subject: <b>My take has been</b>
body:
that the nine rods were all about administration.<br /><br />Aes Sedai = Servants of All<br /><br />I think this can be likened to civil Servants. Aes Sedai weren't a government, but rather served the needs of the people. And I think these nine rods were for different needs of the people: transportation, communication, education, economy, etc.<br /><br />That's been my interpretation of 'dominion'. Not of kingdoms and such, but of different administerial departments which serve the people.<br /><br />But I like your point that 'summoning the nine rods' was in essence summoning people. It makes much more sense than summoning objects.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Bob L. Sedai (a.k.a. Luge) <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /><br />Fighting off the Taint - <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tinfoilhat.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" />Thanks given to Burr, the ever-helpful theory critic<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />And to Light in the Night, fellow theorist extraordinaire<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Voted Best Screenname 1 (one) years in a row.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-08-14 01:19:12
subject: <b>Good theory</b>
body:
You are right, the phrasing sounds like a person. Seems pretty straight forward.<br /><br />Just to throw something in, in a computer game I played years ago, there was a magic item called the Rod of Dominion which (if you got it) allowed you to rule over the land with increased peace and prosperity. So there may have been ter'angreal with powers to increase peace in the land, one given to each ruler. The ruler was then called the Rod of Dominion, and the summoned quote referred to them. Anyway, I don't know how much of this computer game was based on actual mythology, so is it relevent?


created: 2003-08-14 14:21:18
subject: <b>Nine Rods ARE NOT Binders/Oath Rods</b>
body:
This is a response to some of the above comments, not to the original theory:<br /><br />Robert Jordan has 100% confirmed that the Nine Rods of Dominion ARE NOT the same as the Oath Rods (which used to be called Binders.)  They are separate entities.<br /><br />This theory is very good.  Nice work.


created: 2003-08-15 00:51:27
subject: <b>Can you imagine...</b>
body:
if the Rods of Dominion were the Oath Rods? What happens? The King/Queen of a land binds everyone to do what THEY think is right? Mass compulsion? I dont think so.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-08-15 13:39:03
subject: <b>hmmmm</b>
body:
could they have been related to the standing flows available in the AOL? the ones that allowed non-channelers to use ter'angreal?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Seeking Aes Sedai for Bondage... uhh bonding. <br /><br />We rode on the winds of the rising storm,<br />We ran to the sounds of the thunder,<br />We danced among the lightning bolts,<br />and tore the world asunder.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-08-16 10:40:47
subject: <b>DelphianAudi and Etzel</b>
body:
If the 9 Rods of Dominion are angreal, then the repercussions are enormous.<br /><br />It would carry the importance of possession crucial, as was The Bowl of the Winds.<br /><br />I still have a strong feeling Tremalking is holding something of enormous value, and the Rods of Dominion could be among them. Watch out for Mesaana and Alviarin!!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2003-08-16 11:57:39
subject: <b>Certainly</b>
body:
There is certainly the possibility that at least one of the Nine Rods of Dominion survived the Breaking and the following years.<br /><br />If the Rods were in fact OP objects of important persons e.g. governors (who were then called RoD, too), in the AOL's Aes Sedai guild, then I think they were most likely ter'angreal.<br /><br />We must assume that it was equally possible for a woman and a man to get a high position in the guild. <br />Since the persons who were the RoD changed of course over the years it was possible that a woman or a man got the job. <br /><br />The ter'angreal we know aren't connected to saidin or saidar in a way that e.g. one ter'angreal can only used by a male channeler, contrary to angreal or sa'angreal.<br />So if the Rods were important for the RoDs task, surely men and women could use them. <br />This speaks for a ter'angreal quality.<br /><br />Also the name &quot;Rods <i> of Dominion </i>&quot; indicates that they had an intended purpose (like the Bowl of Winds). <br />Just with an angreal or sa'angreal you can't dominate. <br />To dominate you would also need a good channeler who uses this object. And then the channeler could do other things besides domination, e.g. healing, too. <br />So to reduce an angreal or sa'angreal in its name to only one possible use would be strange.  <br /><br />The Rods' only purpose seems to be a certain domination and you need only the RoD to achieve this domination. <br />Therefore they were most likely ter'angreal.<br /><br />Besides, we didn't saw a rod angreal yet I think, while we saw several rod ter'angreal (e.g. the Oath Rod). <br />Angreal are mostly something to wear, a brooch or a ring, something like this, so you have your hands free to channel. <br />Of course that's not always the case, Rand has his little buddha angreal, another example is Callandor. <br />But I believe we can say that rods are normally ter'angreal.<br /><br />The question is whom or what could these ter'angreal dominate? Why was it such an important tool and symbol for the RoD in the guild who used them?  <br /><br />RJ said they aren't like the Oath Rod. <br />So it seems their purpose wasn't to dominate people.<br /><br />Maybe then the domination was about the land or the weather (though the Bowl of Winds does that already)? <br />If you could indeed dominate the weather with the Rods it's likely that at least one of these Rods is in the WT.  <br /><br />When (IIRC) Nynaeve searched in TAR for a way to fix the weather she came first to the WT. Later she came then to the room with the Bowl of Winds. <br />Maybe she had found in the WT a Rod of Domination. <br />Perhaps someone else will find it there in the coming book/s though I don't know how another weather fixing ter'angreal would fit with the story...<br /><br />But maybe someone has another idea what the purpose of the Rods was.


created: 2003-08-16 13:17:34
subject: <b>just an idea</b>
body:
How about the sa'angreal Siuan uses to Heal Mat? It was shaped like a rod, and I think I remember people saying that it was the most powerful sa'angreal in Tar Valon. It's probably what Nynaeve found in the Tower, too.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">My head aches through trying to stop you giving me a headache. - R. D. Laing<br /><br />When in doubt, look in the Books. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-08-16 16:27:36
subject: <b>Rod of balefire</b>
body:
I think Nyneave found one of the rods of Dominion.  If you can recall Nyneave used a rod she found with the Black Ajah in Book 4.  The rod made Balefire.  It was with the male odam.  I may be wrong.  Please correct me if I am.


created: 2003-08-16 19:35:53
subject: <b>oh yeah!</b>
body:
There WERE powerful rods in the previous books, weren't there? The Tower sa'angreal, and the balefire ter'angreal. But, really, the wording does imply that the Rods of Dominion were people. Confusing!!!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/clap.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lan.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/clap.gif" border="0" /><br />Nynaeve and Lan!<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-08-17 03:06:59
subject: <b>Comments</b>
body:
To Eleana,<br /><br /><b> How about the sa'angreal Siuan uses to Heal Mat? It was shaped like a rod, and I think I remember people saying that it was the most powerful sa'angreal in Tar Valon. It's probably what Nynaeve found in the Tower, too. </b><br /><br />Oh, I had forgotten this powerful saidar sa'angreal.  <br />I re-read the scene and this sa'angreal was called a &quot;wand&quot;. <br />Since other ter'angreal are called a rod there is apparently a difference between a rod and a wand shape.<br />Because of that and the other reasons I pointed out in my last comment I don't think that this wand is a Rod of Dominion. <br /><br />Furthermore, I don't think that this is what Nynaeve had found in the WT. At this poin the girls didin't really know what to do. They just searched with this &quot;need&quot; feeling. So even if they had found the sa'angreal wand in the WT it hadn't helped them much since they hadn't know what to do with it. <br />On the other hand, when the girls found the Bowl of Winds they knew they could fix the weather with it. Therefore I believe there is something similiar to the Bowl of Winds in the WT, maybe a RoD. <br /><br /><br />To cristopher lee,<br /><br /><b> I think Nyneave found one of the rods of Dominion. If you can recall Nyneave used a rod she found with the Black Ajah in Book 4. The rod made Balefire. It was with the male odam. I may be wrong. Please correct me if I am. </b><br /><br />Yes, one of the BA had such a balefire rod from the WT. <br />Don't remember what happened to it, if Nynaeve took it, but I think it can't be a RoD.<br /><br />Balefire was invented in the middle of the War of Power. <br />We know from the Guide that the First among Servants summoned the RoD already in the AoL. <br />Also the name doesn't really fit. It should be Rod of Destruction, or something like that.<br /><br />Therefore I doubt that the balefire rod is a RoD. (besides, hadn't this rod only a limited number of balefire using?) <br /><br /><br />To nmaria27,<br /><br /><b> There WERE powerful rods in the previous books, weren't there? The Tower sa'angreal, and the balefire ter'angreal. But, really, the wording does imply that the Rods of Dominion were people. Confusing!!! </b><br /><br />The Rods of Dominion were powerful objects which certain (nine) people, probably of the Aes Sedai guild had and used. <br />These important persons were therefore also called Rods of Dominion as a title.


created: 2003-08-17 08:52:28
subject: <b>Ministers</b>
body:
Another possibility is that those 9 persons were heads of major ministries;like minister of state, minister of defence, minister of trade, minister of internal security...<br />As a head of state LTT would have had right to call his ministers anytime he needed their advice or service of their departments of government.


created: 2003-08-17 17:07:27
subject: <b>true...</b>
body:
But I still like to think that the Rods (Aes Sedai Oath Rod, the one Sevanna has and Alviarin's) are some kind of Binder as well...maybe they were both.<br /><br />Maybe, in summoning the Nine Rods of Dominion, the Aes Sedai Leader at the time would bring all the Rods together and use them for a certain purpose. Maybe it was safer to have them all apart...<br /><br />I dunno...that's pretty much up-in-the-air, but I think that'd be cool.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Isabel <br />-Is determined to live up to her Canadian heritage...PARTY!<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />-Will read every WoT book Jordan spits out, even if they get worse. So there.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/crazy.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-08-17 19:10:30
subject: <b>Who held the RodS?</b>
body:
If we look at the quotes from Ishmael to Lews Therin:<br /><br />&quot;Once you stood first among the Servants&quot;<br />Since the AOL Aes Sedi were the Servants (Servants of All) this must mean he had power/authority over the AOL Aes Sedai and control over the distribution and use of Power made objects.<br /><br />&quot;Once you wore the Ring of Tamyrlin, and sat in the High Seat&quot; <br />I think this is were the Amyrlin Seat idea in the 3rd age originated from (another theory in itself i know!) so we could assum he had similar powers. This would signify that he could summon rulers/governers and dabble in the affairs of their nation/provence, and therefore have considerable authority over them.<br /><br />&quot;Once you summoned the Nine Rods of Dominion.&quot;<br />Now if Ishmael had already mentioned Aes Sedai and rulers, it makes sense that in his third sentance he would mention a different power (be it objects or persons, more likly people since the first two mentioned represent people)<br /><br />This power could be conserned with regulating the weather, or maybe an economical power, or something else i havent thought of (another theory i guess), but beilieve the Rods of Dominion are concerned with something other than Aes Sedai or rulers.


created: 2003-08-17 19:18:42
subject: <b>...continued</b>
body:
Just read the theory by PTH (jumped before i looked!)<br /><br />Guess my rant was just addition on your post! I like the Minister idea!<br />


created: 2003-08-18 11:33:53
subject: <b>Modern Rods</b>
body:
Gaeran, early on, said that the last use of a Rod of Dominion was by the Byzantine Emperors. More recently, we have an example in the Marshal's baton in 18th century France.<br /><br />Having read everyone's comments, here is what I think is most likely: The Rod's of Dominion were given to political rulers, and were most likely ter'angreal that in some way aided their governance. The argument could be made either way from Ishamael&#8217;s statement that the RoDs were political or AS, but I lean toward the political.<br /><br />The main reason I think that the RoDs were ter'angreal is the prevalence of objects of the power in the AoL. It makes sense that the political rulers would also have them.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Rob<br /><br />&quot;I am satisfied that your answer is correct. I am not, however, satisfied that your answer is right...&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2003-08-19 07:46:28
subject: <b>My two unworthy cents</b>
body:
Re: &quot;Summoning the Nine Rods Of Dominion&quot;<br /><br />Ishy must rate this ability up there with being Tamyrlin, etc., for him to state it. The Nine Rods of Dominion, whether people, or objects, have to be very important for Ishy to have stated it at all.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">_______________________________________<br /><br />Cecil Smithson rocks!!<br />____________________<br /><u> ~ Right you are, Ken</u> <br /><br /><font color="orange">.:KORY:.</font> <font color="blue">.:Joe:.</font></font><p></p>


created: 2003-08-19 11:03:30
subject: <b>This makes sense</b>
body:
I agree that the Nine Rods of Dominion are definitely NOT Oath Rods. Sammael speaks of the Oath Rod casually as a 'binder'; the way Ishamael and the context of which he says makes it clear the the Rods were something important. And also the Oath Rod of the White Tower has the number three on it, while the one Sammael gave to Sevanna has the number 113 on it, so there were pbviously more than nine Oath Rods made.<br /><br />Other than that, the theory makes sense<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-08-21 05:38:11
subject: <b>In the scene Ishamael is reminding Lews Therin</b>
body:
Of how far he had fallen.  Wearing the Ring of Tamyrlin, sitting in the High Seat, being the First Among Servants all major things.  Summoning the Nine Rods of Dominion has to be on par with these for Ishamael to include it.<br />Ishamael is rubbing salt in Lews Therin's wounds with what he is saying.<br />You no longer wear the Ring of Tamyrlin, a powerful *angreal.<br />You no longer sit in the High Seat and are no longer first amongst servants.  Loss of social stature, which is important in the Age of Legends.<br />You no longer can Summon the Rods of Dominion, an important political duty, whatever it is.  Probably dealing with the goverment infrastructure.<br /><br />Elections, lets face it mean a constantly shifting goverment and agenda.  By the Age of Legends people realized having a neutral party control the infrastructure answerable to the goverment was best to keep their basic services from being screwed up from neglect and what have you.<br />We have to figure out what the dominions were.  Probably Water, electricity, sanitation, health services, food distribution, housing, education, and transportation.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Life is a journey of sorrow and agony, the only thing keeping us going is that light at the end of the tunnel.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-08-21 16:45:51
subject: <b>Rebuttals...</b>
body:
WOW!  Heheh.  Just came into check to see if my theory had been posted, and there were 37 comments!  YikeS!  Well, I'm glad you all made a point of posting... now:<br /><br />I'm convinced that the rods were people (which many of you seem to).  I hadn't thought of the possibility that the Rods that the rulers themselves held were power-made, although I should have.  I looked in the white book, for the &quot;binders as RoDs&quot; quote that's there, and look:<br /><br />&quot;Some historians, although not all, believe that the Oath Rod of the Aes Sedai may in fact be one of the original Nine Rods of Dominion mentioned in the ancient texts.&quot;<br /><br />Notice that never asserts that it IS, and notice that he never connects the Rods with Lews Therin.  Jordan is playing with us.  (And if you've heard in that interview where he laughs about online theorists and how often they're wrong, or mostly wrong, it's very believable.)<br /><br />Anyhow.  Yeah.  I'm not totally sure about the ministry.  I still like the idea of it being governors of provinces, especially since with the governing flows, there's still a high possibility of the governors being able to do stuff with them, if they're power-made.<br /><br />I remembered that red &quot;rod&quot; (if I remember properly, the rod was too small to reasonably be a Rod of Dominion, but bear with me) that Mesaana gave Alviarin so that she could call Mesaana whenever she needed her.  So, I thought:  What if the Rods of Dominion were simply something that could call Lews Therin for help?  Or even better, something that could notify the wielder when he's been summoned by Lews Therin, and open a Gateway to the Hall of the Servants or something.  Hey, it could happen.  The ideas of the RoD being binders, angreals, sa'angreals, balefire-rods, or something that brings peace to the land, I reject.  (The last one I reject because the existance of the Tree of Life is proof enough that these things didn't exist.  Why create a tree to do a job that's already being done?)  So, yeah.  I think it's probably more simple than that.<br /><br />-Slinky<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">-Stephen Baynham<br /><br />&quot;I would rather die than be dishonored.&quot;<br /><br />Trolloc Wars Mod Wolfbrother<br />http://www.wc3modforge.com/tw</font><p></p>


created: 2003-08-21 21:56:56
subject: <b>Oh, dear...</b>
body:
what if the RODS look like table legs, there were several table legs in the cache with the Bowl of Winds.  I don't know if they were discarded or kept.


created: 2003-08-25 11:32:55
subject: <b>Balefire rod correction</b>
body:
It is not a RoD. <br />Neither was it used by Nynaeve nor is it in her possession.<br />It was used by one of Liandrin`s BA, and likely to still be in her possession.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2003-08-26 19:40:52
subject: <b>Historical language supports this</b>
body:
Note that I neglected to read the other comments, so this may have been posted already, but monarchs have historically often been referred to by simply their nation's name, particularly in Shakespeare.  The King of France, for instance, would be referred to as France, meaning the the person of the King himself as opposed to the country.  <br /><br />Jordan uses this same logic often when referring to different thrones; the Seanchan Empress is almost always referred to by her subordinates as &quot;The Crystal Throne&quot;.  In so doing they are referring not to her royal chair, but to the empress herself, the power behind the chair.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&lt;~~ http://bostonconfidential.org ~~&gt;</font><p></p>


created: 2003-08-26 19:44:19
subject: <b>Also....</b>
body:
Note that the Rods possibly being political figures does not negate the possibility of there also being actual *rods*; likely there were both.  The figures held rods as signs of office, and therefore were referred to as the Rods of Dominion just as rulers are often referred to by their particular throne's name.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&lt;~~ http://bostonconfidential.org ~~&gt;</font><p></p>


created: 2003-08-29 11:13:14
subject: <b>Wow</b>
body:
I think that was very smart of you (and tricky) i wouldn't have thought of actually searching for it on like Google. ^-^ Im a believer, that makes a lot of sense and i think you hit it right on.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Vishnu of the 3rd Order <br />Recorded Time Dragon <br />Recorded Sorceress of the Fire Plane <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />Devoted servant of Knowledge <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br />Novice of the White Tower (Hey im workin my way up <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/frown.gif" border="0" /> )<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br />Oh yes and i love michael shanks... lol.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-08-30 14:12:36
subject: <b>Drowned Mouse</b>
body:
Those table legs were discarded as Elayne went through the bags.  Now they`re probably destroyed by the blast at the WWs Farm.<br />What will we do now?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2003-09-03 23:25:54
subject: <b>pfft</b>
body:
I feel sooo stupid.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rand.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Kneel and swear to the Lord Dragon, or you shall be knelt! - Mazrim Taim<br /><br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-09-04 00:10:09
subject: <b>Brilliant</b>
body:
I agree. I wish I uncovered it myself. I think something else that supports the argument is that I think the EOTW prologue is the only place where the Rods of Dominion are mentioned. Everything about them has been pure speculation. And SUMMONED is the key word. When has a Aes Sedai ever summoned the one power? Never. if the line was &quot;Once you channeled the Nine Rods of Dominion&quot; then there would be discussion. It would have to be an angreal. It only makes sense that since that was not the line, the Nine Rods of Dominion are not angreal. They were simply something RJ probably made up just for the effect on that paragraph. Maybe he didn't even know what it ws when he wrote it. We haven't heard of them again, if they were important something would have been forshadowed about them, and I will be shocked if the phrase is ever mentioned again in the series.


created: 2003-12-16 13:14:17
subject: <b>Three known rods:</b>
body:
I like the theory, and it sounds good, but one thing was forgotten. well, three. the Oath Rod, the rod that the shaido had, and the rod that the black ajah used against nyneave, that shot balefire. Wouldn't a rod powerful enough to level a city be called a Rod of Dominion?


created: 2004-03-04 04:52:35
subject: <b>Straight from TSR</b>
body:
I know this is a late contribution for this topic, but I just noticed this while re-reading TSR:<br />When Mat was playing cards with the young Tairen nobles in the Stone &amp; the 'bubble of evil' popped up, he held a hand of the 5 highest ranking cards.  One of these cards that came to life and tried to kill him was 'The Ruler of Rods.'  The exact wording was:<br />&quot;The Ruler of Rods was expanding beside the first two cards, the Queen of Andor gripping the rod like a bludgeon, her red-gold hair graming a madwoman's snarl...&quot;<br />and later:<br />&quot;he had proof that the steel in their hands could cut, and no doubt the rod could crack a skull...he threw one knife at the golden-haired figure with the bludgeon.&quot;<br />Just as a side note, I'll list the other rulers mentioned:<br />Ruler of Cups, Ruler of Flames, Ruler of Coins, Ruler of Winds.<br />This seems like a subtle proof that the Rods of Dominion were in fact related to powerful persons, perhaps even king/queen types and that the Rods were objects as well.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;The reason I won't tell people though is that I am enjoying watching them squirm entirely too much.&quot; - Robert Jordan</font><p></p>


created: 2004-06-03 22:04:55
subject: <b>somewhat irrelevant, but...</b>
body:
i couldn't be bothered to chock for other theories concerning the Ring of the Tamyrlin. <br />Isn't it much, much, MUCH more likely the the Tamyrlin's ring is the male equivalent to the Amyrlin's stole? Or that the ring was shared by bothe male and female leaders of the Hall of the Servants in the AOL? (because, after all, the 7 ajahs and therefore the stole was created along with the formation of the White Tower, after the Breaking)<br /><br />The Ring of the Tamyrlin just doesn't strike me as being an object of the Power.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Tsorovan'n'dore<br />-StormDancer<br /><br />&quot;We rode on the winds of the rising storm,<br /> we ran to the sounds of the thunder.<br /> We danced among the lightning bolts,<br /> and tore the world asunder.&quot;<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-07-24 19:30:53
subject: <b>hmmm</b>
body:
isnt it stated by one of the Forsaken that the oath rod is one of the rods of dominion?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /> Carai an Calhar! Dovie'andi se tovya sagain! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Loth<br />~~M'hael de Shen al Calhar~~<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-08-03 21:12:38
subject: <b>Weeellllll...</b>
body:
it seems likely to me that whatever these Rods did, it wasn't something destructive. I mean, peeps during the AoL didn't seem to have to threaten violence to establish peace and tranquility. In fact, if I remember that blurb from The World of the WoT properly, there was no hunger, there was no poverty, and there was no war. Lews Therin had to reinvent war and rediscover how to kill from a tame game called &quot;swords&quot;. I think the Rods probably made the weather work, or the soil fertile, or merchants more amenable to trade, you know. Happy pre-Bore AoL stuff.<br /><br />just my two cents


created: 2004-08-09 11:57:41
subject: <b>Dominion</b>
body:
In this other fantasy book I read there was something called &quot;the jewel of dominion&quot; and it was the equivalent of a ter angreal. The king/queen who held it could use it to control their people/lands and fight their enemies. So maybe the RoD was a ter angreal held by rulers used to keep their land in check... so it could be what signified their power and it could be used to refer to the rulers themselves?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;He is such a hypochondriac. I wonder, how many times has he had anthrax this week?&quot;<br />-Olivia(re:Munch)<br /><br />&quot;What? did you see your life flash before your eyes? Cuppa tea - cuppa tea - almost got shagged -cuppa tea.&quot;<br />-Spike (re:Giles)</font><p></p>


created: 2004-08-09 13:53:36
subject: <b>Non-political</b>
body:
Maybe summoning the Rods of Dominion was a religious or spiritual ritual, rather than a political or civic...thingy.  Just a thought.


created: 2004-10-13 12:26:38
subject: <b>all intresting</b>
body:
well I doubt anyone will really read this, its not too important and what not in the grand scheme of things. I was just thinking  of how Ishy said that Once you summoned the Nine RoDs or whatever.. What if LTT had only summoned them once. It would definately have to be something really big. Maybe it was like the nine top channelers, and the sa'angreal they carried. Or perhaps angreal or whatever. Just a thought I guess... Sigh.. but definately a cool theory.<br /><br />Love always and forever,<br />Phoenix


created: 2005-02-11 04:38:35
subject: <b>Why is this even a Theory?</b>
body:
I honestly don't even think the Rods of Dominion were objects of the power. Why should they be? In our past rulers have held rods, scepters and the like. None of them needed to be magical. It's just a symbol of office. Not everything in the Age of Legends was power-wrought. The age of Legends was actually pretty similar to our own modern age. Our jo-cars and sho-wings don't need  magic to run; our shocklances dont need magic to fire. The scepter the Queen of England holds doesn't shoot balefire or bind people's oaths or control the weather. <br /><br />The statement that Ishamael made was just about the power Lews Therin held. He was the leader of all Aes Sedai, the First of the Servants. He was also the Tamyrlin (male word for Amyrlin); his ring was just a symbol of the office of head of the male Aes Sedai, just as the &quot;modern&quot; Amyrlin's stole and throne are hers. There was most likely also an Amyrlin who also wore a ring and was the foremost of the women Aes Sedai.<br /><br />The Rods of Dominion that he summoned were most likely provincial governors or secretaries of government departments (Secretary of Defense, State, Treasury, etc.). Maybe the number of 9 Rods is symbolic of our 9 seats in the Supreme Court. Only the President of the US has the power to summon his cabinet together. The physical Rods were probably just scepters that symbolized their office and gave them their name.<br /><br />I am actually suprised all of you didn't think the Rods of Dominion were people.  On my first read I didn't even have to think about it. It just sounded like a title to me. Just like when I first read the term Amyrlin Seat, I didn't think Moiraine was talking about a powerful chair. It seems strange that there even needed to be a Theory posted on the subject; it's so obvious.


created: 2005-02-16 13:22:55
subject: <b>well</b>
body:
Somehow when I hear &quot;rod&quot; I think inanimate object more so than when I hear &quot;seat&quot;. I guess the symbolism is stronger with the seat but I can see where you're coming from.


created: 2005-09-09 14:30:51
subject: <b>How about both?</b>
body:
It is a good point you make that the Rods of Dominion mean seats of power for rulers of nations or organizations. This could still include the idea that the Rods of Dominion are actually rods (ter'angreals) that are held by these rulers to take oaths from their subjects as we know the oath rod does. Each rod might even have a different type of binding and some rods more powerful than others.<br /><br />The holders of these Rods would be people of certain power and rank, maybe of highest rank rulers of that time. <br /><br />Thus Lews Therin Telamon summoning these kinds of people shows the very high status he had during his time.<br /><br />Just my two cents.


created: 2005-11-07 22:36:42
subject: <b>justice?</b>
body:
I think I remember reading somewhere that the nine rods of dominion were like judges in the AoL.  A tribunal of sorts.  They would try criminals, and if found guilty, they were bound from ever repeating their offenses again.


created: 2006-02-09 12:40:27
subject: <b>Comments relating to the 9 R'soD</b>
body:
Be patient with this rambling post.  I don't have the timeto dig up 'proof' fromthe books so I am going on memory.<br /><br />Why taunt someone with the same thing 2 or 3 times knowing that the person only has a few lucid moments? <br /><br />IMHO Ish was mentioning highly important aspects of 3 different areas of power. Government, Religious and metaphysical. I would say military but there was no military in the AoL until AFTER the Bore.<br /><br />Reasoning?  <br />- We know that the Aeil were servants of all, but NOT channelers.  We also know that the Aeil followed a 'religion' The Way of the Leaf.  Could the &quot;Hall of Servants &quot; have been the Secular governing body?<br />- We know that Tamyrilin and Amyrilin are so similar that we cannot ignore the coincidence especially with the title  &quot;Amyrilin Seat&quot; and Ish's &quot;High Seat&quot;.  Lets be honest, although AS do not openly govern, it is well known that they pull the strings. It's not a big leap to see that the &quot;High Seat&quot; is the highest level of government and the 'Ring of Tamyrlin&quot; could be any item of the OP, but is most assuredly a symbol of office.<br />-Now, the 9 R'soD.   <br />-- &quot;oath rods&quot; are not the RoD. Period.  In one of the books the forsaken are described and part of the description is that one of the female forsaken refused to allow herself to be bound after she was judged guilty of a crime.  Thus she went over to shadow.  Elsewhere the 'oath rods' are described as 'binders' by both male and female forsaken (Graendal and Sammael) and the implication is that they are a judicial punishment.  Clearly the oat rods limit a channelers extended life allotement.  The Kin, Alivia of the Seanchen, Sorilea and the other Wise One of the Aeil --&gt;all CAN live much longer than AS -&gt; because the AS allow themselves to be 'bound' 'like criminals'.<br />--&gt; oath rods were a form of capital punishment for channelers<br />--In a previous post the 'Bowl of Winds'is mentioned as if it were a really big deal in the AoL.. In CoT or maybe WH one of the forsaken mention the 'bowl of winds' as if it were simply one of many 'bowls of winds' that were used to control the weather.  It seems clear that what we are perceiving as highly important objects(oath rods-bowl of winds- dream terangreal) were not important in the AoL, they were common place everyday items.<br />--Lets not forget the the AS in the AoL had a tremendous amount of knowledge about 'the worlds of if' (Lanfear's info on portal stones) and even knowledge of the Aelfin and Eelfin (Lanfear talked about what the Aelfin did to her).<br /><br />SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO<br />for Ish to have mentioned the 9 R'soD means that they were far from common place items of the OP.<br />IMHO the 9 R'soD are 'tools' or 'gateways' or possibly even 'people' from other places/worlds/dimensions<br />


created: 2006-03-24 12:22:00
subject: <b>about binders</b>
body:
I believe there were only three binders and here's why.<br />The oath rod has a three on it<br />the binder the shaido had has 111 or III three in roman numerals<br />If you look at it that way there is no way the 3 binders can be the 9 RoD.<br />Also We shouldn't underestimate Rj it really could be significant or insignificant and the only way we can find out is to RAFO<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Masria Sedai of the Brown Ajah<br />The Zaftig Cat Girl<br /><br />http://serpentinepoet.proboards107.com/index.cgi</font><p></p>


created: 2006-04-17 21:01:46
subject: <b>disagree</b>
body:
Myself, I am covering a ancient history majorat the moment, have never heard of the rods of dominion. I did do the google search and also used a couple other search enginesand found only references to WoT series. It was an interesting theorie and quite well thought out. If anyone can direct me to a book or internet site containing the actual history of RoD then I would be more inclined to believe. As it stands however, it appears that there may be some false truths airing about.


created: 2007-05-06 23:55:44
subject: <b>a few thoughts</b>
body:
i have a few ideas about these RoD, although the original theory was very well researched. <br /><br />firstly im no politician but it was said that the AoL was a capatilist utopian society, and what capatalist society has a king?<br /><br />my first idea about the rods is that they are akin to ajah heads in the modern age. LTT was said to have 13 advisors, who could function like a Hall of the Tower. And humans have always felt the need to organize, and the ancient AS came up with the idea of ajahs, so would they not have had some similar factions beforehand? This leads me to think that the nine rods of dominion were the heads of these ajah-like societies that were called upon only when LTT and his advisors could not decide on an issue. And as for the speculation as the the Ring of Tamyrlin and the High seat i think its just signs of power. this is plain since the modern head of all AS is the Amyrlin Seat. So when the modern AS were examing old documents to maybe see what the structure had been, they came across these two words in the same context, with some letters illegible, proving their similarities. I also think that each may have been held by a different person, and to hold both was a great honour. <br /><br />My other idea is that the nine rods were non channellers who headed guilds of workers. since the AoL was said to be so technologically advanced it would make sense that different groups of people had guilds, such as engineers or scientists or philosiphers, etc.<br /><br />again this is just speculation so i am probably completely wrong


created: 2008-05-15 18:06:00
subject: <b>rods</b>
body:
We have seen Pov from the forsaken and they wished for ter angreal and sa angreal and powerful objects but they never mentioned the rods in the same breath.  If they fit into one of the these categories I believe they would have mentioned them.  <br /><br />There were a lot of times they thought of the past and wished for angreal or other things and they never mentioned them.  This supports the idea that they are a representation of a ruler or Judge, like a judges gavel deal, it shows his office, like the ring they were talking about in the quote.


created: 2003-08-27 14:27:46
subject: <b>hmmmm</b>
body:
I dunno...it's a very well put together theory, but I think Mat is just too resourcefull to let himself be captured perminantly.  He was always one who loves his freedom...I do agree with your thoughts, but I think that he will use that newfound &quot;authority&quot; to get the hell out...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" />     Asha'Twan     <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br />To use no way as way, to have no limitations as limitiation.<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Lee Jun Fan<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-08-27 14:37:45
subject: <b>Nice idea, but...</b>
body:
I don't think that it will happen that way.  First, if as RJ has said it will be over in 2-3 books, there is no way that there is enough time for all that to happen.  Espically, the way that RJ writes.  I always thought that Perrin's dream about him 'naked, bound and snarling'  had more to do with his refusal to accept that he was Ta'veran and fated to be important.  He continually refused to accept it until after Rhuiden wehre he recieved his staff and medallion.  I always figured that Egwene's dream just supported this intereptation.  Mat's blade has 2 ravens on it, thought and memory, I saw it as another viewing of the same thing.  It is a good idea, I just don't see that there is enough time or proof of it.


created: 2003-08-27 14:54:06
subject: <b>Maybe...</b>
body:
This is possible but may happen differently. We do know that Mat will probs soon rise to a more well-known and high-ranking position. Because of his connection to Tuon and the eventual alliance i foresee between rand and seanchan, i believe this could be part of his path. Maybe he will be tattooed simply for marrying tuon. And we know he will eventually invent guns of some sort, so he will most likely be a General. I say it will be a position over seanchan armies but fighting for Rand as much or more than for tuon and seanchan.


created: 2003-08-27 16:30:13
subject: <b>Nice</b>
body:
Nice Theory i must say. But for some wierd reason i dont belive it will happen...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">If there's anything more important than my ego around, I want it caught and shot now.<br />-Zaphod Beeblebrox<br />The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy</font><p></p>


created: 2003-08-27 17:36:40
subject: <b>responses</b>
body:
Heh, cool.<br /><br />First ashatwan:<br /><b>I think that he will use that newfound &quot;authority&quot; to get the hell out...</b><br /><br />He has no authority, and won't unless Tuon gives it to him.  You also said he's too resourceful to let himself get captured permanently.  It wouldn't be permanent, it would be until Tuon has him tattooed.  Then he is basically free.  I think Tuon just wants to show him she is the boss and will be Empress, and one way to do that is to make him her property.<br /><br />amathera:<br /> <b>First, if as RJ has said it will be over in 2-3 books, there is no way that there is enough time for all that to happen.</b><br /><br />There's not?  It really wouldn't take too long.  They are close to Seanchan patrols, etc so it wouldn't take that long for him to get captured.  Using to'raken the return to Ebou Dar could take maybe a day (probably not even that) and even a small party on horses could make it in a few days.  The common assumption is that Rand's meeting with the Seanchan is several days to a couple weeks ahead of the other storylines so it's quite possible from that timeline that it already has happened.  Time is not an issue.<br /><br /><b>his refusal to accept that he was Ta'veran and fated to be important</b><br /><br />That's a good interpretation as well, but I see the difference in being the fact that he's naked.  He could have been shown fighting against his fate in several other ways, but as I said the interpretation you've given is just as valid as mine.<br /><br />General Cauthon:<br /><b>Maybe he will be tattooed simply for marrying tuon.</b><br /><br />That's something I considered as well, but since Perrin's dream convinced me Mat was going to be captured (well, Perrin's dream and the fact that Mat is the only main character to have NOT been captured at some point, unless I'm forgetting something) it seemed to fit more with Tuon's statement about making him da'covale.<br /><br /><b>so he will most likely be a General.</b><br /><br />That was part of my point.  I think he will become the General leading the DeathWatch guards.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Fyatuk Loth<br />Pope Consort to Grand Mistress Krista Sedai<br />Minister to the Way of What<br />Warder to Egwene Dreamwalker (donate WSe please)<br /><br />Currently stalking Belals Girl.<br /><br />WTF?</font><p></p>


created: 2003-08-27 17:56:04
subject: <b>one thing</b>
body:
It is a well put together theory, but I dont trust the evidence from Perrin's dream.  I had always thought of that dream as simply Perrin's vision of the event happening.  He wasnt there to witness it himself, he dreamt of the occurance, as egwene and perrin sometimes do.  Their dreams are not always of the future-  some are simply what is or has happened recently to their friends. <br /><br />kazadorm<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Of all that is written, I love only that which is written in blood.  Write with blood, and you will discover that blood is spirit.<br /><br />It is not easy to understand the blood of another.  I hate the reading idler.  -Nietzsche</font><p></p>


created: 2003-08-27 18:30:46
subject: <b>The problems are clear...</b>
body:
It's possible that Tuon <i> tries </i> to make of Mat a da'covale but especially Mat would never accept this (even Bayle Domon doesn't really accept it). <br />The Seanchan have a different culture which Randlanders don't understand;  Mat would surely not be proud like Karede if he becomes Tuon's property but consider himself as just a slave.<br /><br />Besides, I doubt a bit that the Heir to the Throne could marry a da'covale, but both <i> will </i> marry as the Finn said. <br />I'm not certain though, do we ever learn e.g. about Tuon's father or if it's allowed for a high noble to marry a da'covale?<br /><br />Furthermore, at the moment I see no reason or opportunity for Tuon to bound Mat naked, which is quite cruel, especially since we can assume that Tuon loves Mat, even if she doesn't show it.<br /><br />Of course it could be that the show meets Karede's rescue army soon. <br />Maybe Mat tries to fly then but is captured. <br />But even in this case it seems very odd that Mat is bound with his ashandarei and is allowed to keep his medallion. <br />This indicates that this dream has rather a symbolical meaning.<br /><br />Finally, in CoT is Egwene's dream of Mat bowling thousends of Seanchan. <br />This probably means that Mat invents bombs or grenades and uses them against the Seanchan. <br />Thus it speaks against Mat becoming da'covale cupbearer and then da'covale General.<br /><br />Of course you mention the foretellings which indicate that Mat will indeed become property but perhaps they also just mean symbolical that Tuon wins Mat's heart or something like that. <br /><br />Anyway, there are some problems in your theory. <br />It could be that Tuon tries to make of Mat a da'covale, but not for long because Mat will fight against it (and he is ta'veren with some luck after all...).<br />And I rather believe that Mat will become Commander of the Seanchan army after Rand takes control of the Seanchan.<br />


created: 2003-08-27 18:45:57
subject: <b>Deathwatch Guards</b>
body:
I agree with this theory. I think Mat being in control of the Seanchan armies would be a great benefit if the Seanchan are to allie with Rand in the near future.<br /><br />I however disagree with the part about him joining the Deathwatch Guards. It seams to me that the Deathwatch Guards are just an organisation to police the people of the Seanchan empire. Mats abilities would be wasted in just joining the Seachan police, his skills would lie best in battle commanding the armies.<br /><br />Other than that great theory!


created: 2003-08-27 19:55:22
subject: <b>I like some of the theory but</b>
body:
Im not so sure Tuon will have that easy a time now that she has been captured. It seems to me they have set up another DotNM and may just prefer to stick with that since whoever that is is a DF. I dont get the impression that anyone below the Empress, may she live forever, is in all that stable a position anyway. I think Mat's role will be getting Tuon's position reinstated somehow and that may hold some sway with Tuon herself. To all the Faile haters I can only say this....Tuon can give lessons on how to be a true biiatch!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-08-27 21:42:41
subject: <b>Good theory, but can`t agree...</b>
body:
First of all Tuon won`t make him da`covale. From Egeanin`s POV, she seriously hasdoubts about marrying a manumitted da`covale. She is a High Lady of lowest rank, and Tuon is DotNM.  Do you think Tuon would be less horrified?<br /><br />Another thing:  Mat is far too important {General, Ta`veren} to be used as a mere DeathWatch commander.  He will be General of the Seanchan Army ,after Rand wins them over, and fight the Dark Forces.<br /><br />I am at a loss at who the 2 hawks who sank their talons into him are..  Surely one is Tuon, and used to think the other one was Selucia, but am now leaning toward Egeanin.  It was she, after all, who was first involved significantly with Mat.<br /><br />Thanks for the Theory.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2003-08-27 22:05:28
subject: <b>Ravens</b>
body:
They're 2 ravens.  There are 2 ravens on his weapon, Tuon's sign is ravens and roses, and the Deathwatch Guards all have a raven tattooed into each shoulder.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Wartherded by Phil Reborn<br /><br />CW</font><p></p>


created: 2003-08-27 22:07:49
subject: <b>Her flag I mean</b>
body:
She has a flag with roses and ravens but she also has a sign that is 2 lions pulling a cart<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Wartherded by Phil Reborn<br /><br />CW</font><p></p>


created: 2003-08-27 22:29:00
subject: <b>hmm...</b>
body:
imperial family marrying da'covale?  i just don't see that happening...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Eben<br />AshamanWarder<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-08-28 00:02:13
subject: <b>i like it</b>
body:
i dont agree with it 100% but my objections have already been raised, so i will say that it does seem that mat should become the general of the seanchan armies, the evidence is pointing in that direction. i do not see why tuon would not marry a da'covale either, i mean they can hold very high positions, it really isnt a bad thing. plus i think mat would look like a total badass with ravens tatooed on his shoulders, uh yeah thatd be cool. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Whelp, I'm rich! So long losers who I've always hated.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-08-28 08:08:57
subject: <b>More comments!</b>
body:
Kazadorm Brightblade:<br /><b>Their dreams are not always of the future- some are simply what is or has happened recently to their friends.</b><br /><br />But they are many times of the future, and who is to say which is which.  I can see Perrin's dream refering to Mat and his general dislike of being ta'veren (I don't agree with it, but I can see that interpretation), but what would Egwene's dream be that already happened?<br /><br />Etzel<br /><b>especially Mat would never accept this</b><br /><br />Mat doesn't accept anything until its forced upon him.  He didn't accept being a ta'veren until he was taught he couldn't get away from it and he didn't accept being a general until the Band of the Red Hand refused to let him leave.  Yet he's accepted both of those now.<br /><br /><b>Besides, I doubt a bit that the Heir to the Throne could marry a da'covale, but both will marry as the Finn said.</b><br />This is technically not true.  The Finn never said Tuon would marry him, just that he would marry the DotNM.  It could be argued that has happened already since he completed his half of the ritual (I don't believe it anyway).<br /><br />And I don't see why the heir couldn't marry anyone she wanted.  But even so, Seanchan society cannot possibly survive in its current state on the mainland for very long.  It will soon be known that suldam are channelers themselves which will shake its foundations.  I'm betting Tuon ends up ruling the local Seanchan after seceeding from the Empire.<br /><br /><b>Furthermore, at the moment I see no reason or opportunity for Tuon to bound Mat naked, which is quite cruel, especially since we can assume that Tuon loves Mat, even if she doesn't show it.</b><br /><br />The same reason he is not under her protection: She wants him to know she is in charge.<br /><br /><b>But even in this case it seems very odd that Mat is bound with his ashandarei and is allowed to keep his medallion. </b><br />Actually this has been recorded historically.  Its a way to embarass the enemy and motivate your own troops.  By binding him to his own weapon you tell him that he is no threat even with his weapons.<br /><br /><b>Finally, in CoT is Egwene's dream of Mat bowling thousends of Seanchan. </b><br />Can't say I remember this one, or at least I don't remember that it was Seanchan he was bowling with.  Of course if he goes to war with the Seanchan it's not likely he would marry Tuon either, but you disputed an earlier point based on the fact he would.  Any exceptions to one could be made for the other.<br /><br />obsessedwithTWOT:<br /><b>It seams to me that the Deathwatch Guards are just an organisation to police the people of the Seanchan empire.</b><br />In my readings they came across more as Marines.  The first on the field.  They are the unit that EVERYONE is afraid of.  I could be wrong on that though.  I believe there is mention of them putting down rebellions back on the Seanchan continent.<br /><br />jofraz:<br /><b>From Egeanin`s POV, she seriously hasdoubts about marrying a manumitted da`covale. She is a High Lady of lowest rank, and Tuon is DotNM. Do you think Tuon would be less horrified?</b><br /><br />Actually I do.  Tuon has seemed more open-minded than most.  I mean, she attempted to BUY Mat the first time she laid eyes on him, and I'm pretty sure she recognized the ring (prolly part of the foretelling the damane got beaten for, as well as hawkwings face).  Also Tuon puts a large amount of emphasis on omens, moreso than any other Seanchen she's seen.  If she thinks an omen told her to marry a da'covale she would.<br /><br /><b> am at a loss at who the 2 hawks who sank their talons into him are.. </b><br /><br />As Deadsey mentioned, they are raven's not hawks.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Fyatuk Loth<br />Pope Consort to Grand Mistress Krista Sedai<br />Minister to the Way of What<br />Warder to Egwene Dreamwalker (donate WSe please)<br /><br />Currently stalking Belals Girl.<br /><br />WTF?</font><p></p>


created: 2003-08-28 09:35:40
subject: <b>Reply</b>
body:
<b> Mat doesn't accept anything until its forced upon him. He didn't accept being a ta'veren until he was taught he couldn't get away from it and he didn't accept being a general until the Band of the Red Hand refused to let him leave. Yet he's accepted both of those now. </b><br /><br />It's one thing to accept the responsibilities which go along with becoming a General or realizing that one is a ta'veren, i.e. an important thread in the pattern.<br /><br />A whole different thing is to accept that one is property, a slave of another person. <br />We see that Domon doesn't accept. <br />We saw that Egwene didn't accept it as Damane.<br />You say that Mat will be humilated and forced by the Seanchan or Tuon to serve. <br />But wouldn't that change Mat's character too much? <br />One of the most beloved characters of the WoT (especially since he is so headstrong) would become a pet. <br />Not very likely in my eyes. <br /><br /><b> This is technically not true. The Finn never said Tuon would marry him, just that he would marry the DotNM. It could be argued that has happened already since he completed his half of the ritual (I don't believe it anyway). </b><br /><br />Hu? Marriage is always mutual! <br />The marrige ceremony isn't completed yet, as Egeanin tells Mat (somewhere in CoT). <br />Mat is not already married.<br /><br />Besides, you answered to jofraz that it's likely that it was foretold to Tuon that she will marry Mat.<br /><br /><b> And I don't see why the heir couldn't marry anyone she wanted. But even so, Seanchan society cannot possibly survive in its current state on the mainland for very long. It will soon be known that suldam are channelers themselves which will shake its foundations. I'm betting Tuon ends up ruling the local Seanchan after seceeding from the Empire. </b><br /><br />Well, I think the High Blood can only marry High Blood. It's quite normal that in a society like the Seanchan nobleborn don't marry common people, less than ever da'covale.<br /><br />Egeanin doesn't want that Seanchan know about her relationship to Domon. <br />And Karede thinks in CoT that Deathwatch Guards serve the Crystal Thron, not so much the person on it. <br />That means to have intimate emotions for such a person isn't respectable (so he doesn't want that someone knows about his feelings towards Tuon).  <br /><br />And if you think that Tuon will break with all old customs why should she then keep the custom of da'covale especially for her own man whom she loves?<br /><br />But by the way, Mat even thinks at one point in CoT that he wanted to ask Egeanin if Tuon can marry a da'covale. <br />So probably we will learn this in the next book.<br /><br /><b> Actually this has been recorded historically. Its a way to embarass the enemy and motivate your own troops. By binding him to his own weapon you tell him that he is no threat even with his weapons. </b><br /><br />Well, it could be that Tuon or rather the Deathwatch Guards do it with Mat. <br />Karede and the seeker Mor even say, apparently a formal sentence:&quot;Death and <i> shame </i> to her [the Empress] enemies.&quot;<br /><br />Nevertheless, the dream could also mean Mat's situation when he was Tylin's lover or that he is bound by Tuon since he loves her.  <br /><br /><b> Can't say I remember this one, or at least I don't remember that it was Seanchan he was bowling with. Of course if he goes to war with the Seanchan it's not likely he would marry Tuon either, but you disputed an earlier point based on the fact he would. Any exceptions to one could be made for the other. </b><br /><br />The dream is in CoT, ch.20, pg.492. <br />You are right it doesn't say that the men are Seanchan; I confused it somehow. <br /><br />


created: 2003-08-28 10:45:31
subject: <b>Thanks for correction on ravens/hawks</b>
body:
Would also like to say, if Mat were indeed humiliated publically {being naked and bound}, it would be of very short order, until Tuon sets him free.  This could be perfect opportunity for her to say &quot;he is my husband&quot; three times.<br /><br />Still do not believe she`ll make him da`covale. She conceded that he does know &quot;how to play the game&quot;.   Mat will be a great asset in her rule of the Seanchan in the Westland.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


