# w_comment

created: 2005-01-28 13:09:39
subject: <b>You missed an important quote</b>
body:
I wasn't able to read the entire thing.  But it seems to me that you missed an important quote in tSR.  <br /><br />I can't remember the exact details, I will look them up when I have the book.  But Moiraine makes a comment about Mayener ways not being the same as Andor's ways.  This is in direct reference to Berelain's attempted seduction of Rand.  This tells us that Berelain's actions are typical Mayener behaviour and not just a 'personality quirk' of Berelain.  Elayne later makes a comment about Mayeners being open about their sexuality.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">RabidWombat<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> Let the Lord of Rambling Thoughts rule <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> Proud owner of a 2 star rating! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /> Someone stole all my cookies <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-01-30 03:17:45
subject: <b>Loooooooooong</b>
body:
extremly long theory and extremely long posts. did read the entire theory not all the reactions. the theory sounds good by the way good work. (Please just a bit shorter next time)


created: 2005-01-30 22:10:59
subject: <b>Good job, all of you</b>
body:
You're doing the right thing to look at Berelain's behavior in terms of Matyener culture, although I disagree with a lot of the details.<br /><br />1.) B. and most of the other main characters, is very young and has an enormous amount of responsibility preserving her country in its political balancing act with larger powers.  With Perrin she's acting out of &quot;culture&quot;, but she's also acting out of immature adolescent pride.  That she likes Perrin and is somewhat infatuated with him adds to the intensity.<br /><br />2.)  She is very determined and tenacious.  This can be good in her public role as the First.  But she can't back down.  She also is a little obsessive, at least when it comes to men, and hyper competitive.  This isn't all culture.<br /><br />3.)  She is very competent and is in a struggle to survive.  At least at first, she has to see Faile as a less mature person who is not in a personal struggle for the life of her country, which in B's case entails life itself.<br /><br />4.) I think that B. IS too much like Mat.  She (and Mat) and the Seanchan, for that matter, always keep their words. They are both tenacious when they adopt a project, make a commitment.  Maybe in other ways, too.  <br /><br />5.} Rhuarc.  He is a father figure.  Her father died a while ago, she needs a father as model, and to test herself against--to set limits.  I don't have a daughter, but in a way, he is even someone to try flirting with in the safety that he will just smile appreciatively and respond only appropriately.  This is healthy.<br /><br />6.)  I don't think she will fall head over heals for Perrin, REALLY fall in love with him.  She also (like some of the Aes Sedai) has to learn to own her pride, not let her pride own her.  If there were no Faile, Perrin still wouldn't be right for her, however much she respects him.  And I think she's tiring of the game.  She offered Perrin a truce when Faile and the others were captured and he didn't have the self knowledge to accept.  If she can give up Perrin, even without falling head over heals with another, then she will truly become an adult, and in the eyes of Rhuarc and the Wise Ones, a very powerful woman.<br /><br />7. She DOES accept responsibility for her actions. In this she's like Egwene.  But let's face it, she's lonely.  It would take a very strong man and self assured man to be her consort. Even when she does something that she knows is wrong or will cause her damage, she is willing to pay the price.<br /><br />8. Faile has a lot of growing up to do also, but she started further back.


created: 2005-01-31 08:06:00
subject: <b>more responses</b>
body:
to RabidWombat<br />Thank You for reminding for this quote, I forgot about it. In the beginning of chapter 6 of tSR Moiraine makes this comment exactly as response to Egwene's embarassement that Berelain was in Rand's chambers. That means that Moiraine estimates Berelain's behavior as for to be expected from a Mayener. In the very end of the same chapter Elayne makes the comment about the openness of Mayeners in their sexuality - an unwilling comment for to explain the situation to Egwene and Nynaeve. I.e. both Moiraine and Elayne estimate Berelain's behavior to be explainable by Berelain being a mayener.<br /><br />Later there are many quotes about the reactions of the Mayener army about Berelain's behavior and about the jokes of the spearmaiden involving naked gai'shain - all that means that Mayener have specific mentality about sexual things.<br /><br /><br />to reptile<br />ad #1. B. is young and has some adolescent pride, but the way she uses the arsenal of her seductive means and the routinity in doing it means that her adolescent pride is backed up with  being well educated in a thrusted school of seductive behavior. She is too much fluent in her seductive technique and too well controlling her emotions for these style of behavior to be invented and developed by herself. Using some unappropriate means in her play with Rhuarc, Rand and Perrin looks exactly like errors a young well educated person will do in unconventional cases. Also Berelain has not so much experience with men (only two until now, both of politics but not pleasure) for to become so refined, routined and cold-blooded in her seductive excercises.<br /><br />ad #2. Being competitive is a character, not a culture. But the manner of expressing competitiveness is most often determined by culture. Berelain competes using her own style, she never tends to use the style of her rivals. Where her style of competition comes from? Most often insisting on a specific own style for all competition is a mark of a significant cultural tradition the competetive person is basing on.<br /><br />ad #3. Why is this a point against me? Yes, she sees in Faile less mature person, but this would be rather a reason for Berelain to ignore her challenge as unworthy to deal with, because it is enteresting to compete only with equals. But Berelain doesn't ignore it, because IMO she has some believes about the value of open challenge, i.e. Faile deserved her attention exactly because of the childish and open manner of her challenge. Such Faile's behavior made Berelain to want overthrump her for to not lose her reputation of the Most Scandalous One. Faile's immaturity doesn't explain Berelain's overthrumping her in immaturity.<br /><br />ad#4. True, Berelain is like Mat about promises. But what made Berelain to make the promise? Mat makes his promises because he doesn't bother to control his own emotions. But Berelain's behavior is marked by very high degree of self-control.<br /><br />ad #5. Very good points about Rhuarc. But I doubt that she saw in him a father in the moment when she invited him to dinner with her, and so quick tranformation from an object of seduction in father's figure is a little bit unusual for a person so well controlling her emotions. And if exactly Rhuarc's behavior matched so well the role of the missing father for Berelain, then she must have a similar expeditions for the father's role before to meet Rhuarc. Where from she could have these expeditions? From Mayene of course.<br /><br />ad #6. I don't think that Berelain's behavior after Faile's capture is to be explained with her pride. Before that it could, even if I would say that her pride was not the only factor even before that. The &quot;truce&quot; she offered to Perrin doesn't look like dissapearing of her interest towards him, but rather a transformation of this interest in a more mature form. &quot;Giving up&quot; Perrin would be not so much a problem for Berelain I guess. Also having in mind the reaction of the Wise Ones about Melaine's feelings towards Bael, and their common believes about the proper rivalship for love (including direct fighting), I don't think that &quot;giving up&quot; Perrin is a condition for the WO to accept her maturity - Aiels, including Wise Ones (as seen in the detais of firstsisters ceremony) have just the opposite believes about the proper personal attachment - it's not wise giving-up what they praise. And Berelain's attitude to begin sexual relations is basing on lack of real passionate attachment, so a falling head over heels for her would require some time to develope. I don't think that she has time to develope true passionate love to anybody else until the Last Battle. She just haven't the required time to develope her feelings to e.g. Galad.<br /><br />ad #7. It's exactly so, as You say it. But different lonely and responsible persons choose difefrent ways to make their choces. The fact that Berelain made the resolute choces is due to her character. The manner she performed her choices is due to her culture.


created: 2005-01-31 17:23:58
subject: <b>u like writing?</b>
body:
u do not have to make everything that long...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perplexed.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smackhead.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /> LLT <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-02-07 12:02:14
subject: <b>I liked this theory</b>
body:
I don't know if we'll ever get a full perspective on Mayene, but the ideas you put forth are definitely possibilities.  Thank you for your contribution.<br /><br />By the way--I'm not sure if it was modified in the translation or something, but Mayene usually has only one &quot;n&quot; in it.  Also, the word you're looking for when you talk about Perrin acting in a way to impress Berelain without meaning to is <i>unwittingly</i>, not <i>unwillingly.</i>  If Perrin <i>unwillingly</i> did something, it would mean that someone was forcing him to do so; if he <i>unwittingly</i> did something, it means he did it without really intending to do it (it also implies that he didn't <i>realize</i> he was doing it).<br /><br />I don't mean to criticize you, though--I'm just trying to help.  In general, I like this theory (though it is a little on the long side...).  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Who we were is lost to all men, and life is bitter.&quot;<br />&quot;Expect nothing, and you will not be surprised.&quot;  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2009-01-21 01:37:17
subject: <b>very good analysis on Mayenner behavior</b>
body:
Well reasoned out. I agree with practically everything about Mayenne culture and Berelain's &quot;techniques&quot;. Her moves have always looked measured and well planned to me to be just some simple ploy to break up a marriage.<br /><br />My only issue is the man in white part. There has never been any indication of Perrin being the man in white, not even the slightest association between him and the shade. Unless you consider the part where he was found half dead of hypothermia. That would certainly be white. As it is right now, the characters associated with white would either be gai'shain or whitecloaks.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Is this in the Old Tongue?<br />&quot;Bah weep graaagnah wheep ni ni bong!&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2005-01-28 04:39:59
subject: <b>*shrugs*</b>
body:
I reckon you could work in a point about how Nynaeve Healed stilling. I think she may have used FIRE and Spirit to bridge the severed link in Logaine, and the same for Siuan and Leane (because she wanted to show off and didn't try to think that healing with spirit and AIR or WATER would have been better).<br /><br />Well...that's what I think <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> and as far as I can tell, you're right.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">i have severed all my former allegiances to The Forsaken Who Shall Not Be Named Any More Because She Was Dumb Enough To Get Captured (TFWSNBNAMBSWDETGC).<br /><br />sigh. now i must find a new forsaken to root for.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-01-28 05:04:02
subject: <b>Interesting...</b>
body:
When Logain was healed Nyneave thought of Fire. He was healed to his original strength. When she healed Siuan etc they did not gain there original strength. Presumably she used Fire again for the weave. Is it possible that because she used the male dominant power it was not as effective on females?<br /><br />BTW does anyone know what power Flinn used to heal the Aes Sedia? I'll bet it was Water or Air.


created: 2005-01-28 07:47:28
subject: <b>Spirit's role</b>
body:
The focus on Spirit's role in all that cases of different weaves seems to open very iteresting perspectives. However I find it not likely enough to interpret the Spirit's role as the actual originator of the effect, nor I find it convincing enough that Spirit means effect on bodies. Rather the Spirit performs something like diagnostics, directing and harmonization of the work of the other flows.<br /><br />Spirit is exclusively used in many cases where any connection to body is questionable. Most often it is used when there is something to do with different dimensionsof reality (tel'aran'rhiod, the space between the Pattern used for Traveling and Skimming etc, shielding a channeler - the last must take it's place in a metaphysical location, between it must be between the channeler and the Source while the Source is everywhere, i.e. in a metaphysical location as a shared but different dimension). The need of Spirit for cases connected with living bodies is maybe also based on having to do with another dimension: because living bodies are connected with souls and souls because of reincarnation-ability are actually belonging to a dimension of reality different from the reality of the physical world (as dreaming effects prove). So Spirit is needed in connection to bodies because in bodies there is allways something connecting to another dimension.<br /><br />About Slicing, I have the impression that any flow can be used. Apart from Moiraine's usage of Air and Fire, if I remember it correctly Nynaeve used Air only to slice Talaan's weaves, and Cyndane also needed Air only to slice Alivia's weaves.<br /><br />About Healing, if the other weaves were used only for making the weave stronger, then Healing using Spirit onl;y would be possible e.g. for the most simple cases or when a Healer must spare her strenght for another task. We have no indication that Healing usung only Spirit is possible, but wilder Healing would rather reinvent this Healing in this most simple form of it.<br /><br />Some of the words of the Yellow Sisters after Nynaeve's Healing of Siuan and Leane make me to conclude, that every elemental flow has it's own role for different aspects of health problems. After seeing Nynaeve's all-powers Healing, some yellows begin immediately to propose manners of using Fire for some cardiac diseases that AS were unable to Heal before. After that there are reports that now the Yellows create wonders when using Fire, while we know that no other Yellow Sister successed to learn the all-Powers Healing style of Nynaeve. So Fire is used for some problems (heat-related, blood-related). Air will be used for separation, moving, cut and past. Water would be using for manipulating bodily fluids. In that case Air and Water would be the most obviously needed flows.<br /><br />Compulsion: Moghediens case describe this weave as mainly Spirit with few Air and Water. This is unlike Healing, when the elements are described as if in equal quantities. Moghedien uses advanced Compulsion in comparison to Liandrin (who IIRC also weaved not only Spirit but also another flow), so if Your theory was true, it had to be expected for Moghedien to use more Air and Water for her Compulsion to be stronger than Liandrin's.<br /><br />Interesting is that the AS from the AoL were unable to Heal only mental diseases (Greandal was famous for working with patients who where not curable by the One Power). If Spirit was tha base of all healing, so it would be rather most effective on mind-based diseases.<br /><br />Bonding a Warder may be added to the weaves, You analyses here. Elayne used IIRC Spirit in the combination. Also interesting is, that when Logain is binding Tovaine, she is feeling extremal heat.


created: 2005-01-28 08:56:19
subject: <b>Agree w/ Dragonburned Fool - Spirit is the base</b>
body:
But I see that as a relatively minor difference - great theory.<br /><br />So does this mean that Earth should be used on Kidney Stones?<br /><br />Also, with respect to Healing mental diseases in the AoL - I think it is likely that Healing didn't work because the mind isn't damaged in most cases of mental illness.  The brain isn't a machine that just functions and needs an oil change every 3000 miles.  It is too complex to say that this brain is in proper working order and this one over here is not.<br /><br />Again, interesting theory.  Does anyone recall what weave Semi used on the warder she pleasured to death?  Was it also spirit?<br /><br /><br />TFK


created: 2005-01-28 10:15:43
subject: <b>To Fisher King</b>
body:
Again, interesting theory. Does anyone recall what weave Semi used on the warder she pleasured to death? Was it also spirit?<br /><br />Well she used Spirit and Fire on Cab, and as far I can tell she used the same weaving on her warder. Semi doesn't think to herself that she's changed the weave she was using on Cab, she just used to it touch a different part of the warders brain than she was with Cab.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Founding member of the ASI</b><br /><br /><b>TP ADMIN</b><br /><br /><b>Simon</b><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-01-28 11:49:33
subject: <b>hmm...interesting...</b>
body:
I like it. Though I am afraid that it may be an oversimplification of things. Some (potentially) important aspects really should be addressed. Such as talents. What exactly is a talent - your theory implies that anyone with strength in all 5 powers should have many (if not all) 'talents'. This is clearly not the case. Talents are not really incorporated well into your theory.<br /><br />Another issue is any basic differences between Saidin and Saidar. They seem to use the same base OP, but is a spirit thread woven by Saidin different from one woven by Saidar? How does this work into your theory. An example - men and women travel in two very different ways. Could a man who is sufficiently strong in Water and Air travel the way women do, and could a woman who is suffficiently strong in Fire and Earth travel like a man - your theory implies this would be the case, but it does not appear so.<br /><br />Overall, I like the theory, but I feel it is a an oversimplification of things.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Need a book to read - check out my blog for ideas.</font><p><a href="http://nethspace.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">Neth Space</a></p><p></p>


created: 2005-01-28 17:22:21
subject: <b>Not so sure about the Powers</b>
body:
There is a point in the books which Rand thinks to himself &quot;that Saidar and Saidin are different, but the differences themselves vary. On some points, you couldn't slide a hair between, and others it was stone versus silk.&quot;<br /><br />Basically, I think the cold/hot feeling of Healing by Women and Men is just because of Saidar and Saidin, just like the Healing of Stilling. I think that if Flinn had Healed Leane and Siuan, they'd be back at full strength, and that if he had Healed Logain, the former Dragon would be severely nerfed.<br /><br />As to Spirit being the base flow that affects the body, not so sure about that either. You see, Laindrin does use pure Spirit in her &quot;Compulsion&quot; in TGH, but we all know that things from the first two books often don't match the rest of the story. And I'm not sure that if you used a Spirit-only weave you could Heal, or bond a Warder, or do any of the myriad things that Spirit is used as a base for.<br /><br />Of course, Elayne and Nynaeve did use pure Spirit when they were using that inlcusion weave for bonding Min to Rand, IIRC.<br /><br />There may be some things you passed over, but this may have some merit.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">http://www.orkut.com/Profile.aspx?uid=4841668765074332965<br /><br />&quot;It's like God gave you the tools to build a house, and the blueprint is in you. Just remember to use rubber gloves.&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2005-01-28 18:53:39
subject: <b>I dont know</b>
body:
I think all healing is air, spirit, water. It just makes more sense. I guess you could argue that we havent seen regular men healing so we dont know, but I think the sensation Rand feels is just how healing feels.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br /><br /> <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-01-29 00:00:27
subject: <b>Interesting</b>
body:
I think this theory might be on to something, but let me take some of your points and suggest an alternate explanation:<br /><br />Spirit is obviously an essential component of healing, but what if there are two different ways of making it work?  We have the `female' way, of spirit, air and water, and also the `male' way of spirit, fire and earth.  The female way works by feeding on the bodies own energy to cure the illness, while the male way burns the illness out of the body.  Then, what Nynaeve and Flinn would be doing is using both types of healing together.  Makes you wonder, if men and women linked together, could they then use the five-power healing, even if the person leading the circle was only able to use one of the types?<br /><br />This also makes me wonder about some of the other male/female differences, such as travelling.  Sure, Asmodean said that men could not use the female method, and vice versa, but we all know that the AoL people didn't know everything.  And it might explain why Aviendha hasn't been able to master female travelling despite having travelled before, if she is actually stronger in the male powers than in the female... (is there anything in any of the books to suggest this?)<br /><br />Anyway, its food for thought.


created: 2005-01-29 10:52:48
subject: <b>Another nice theory sidious</b>
body:
I hope you keep posting them.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Founding member of the ASI</b><br /><br /><b>TP ADMIN</b><br /><br /><b>Simon</b><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-01-30 15:58:28
subject: <b>reason for the heat and cold of healing</b>
body:
1 when an AS heals, i think that the Air and Water create the cold temp (like a cool wind blowing across a a pond) but with the Asha'man, they use Fire and Earth makeing it hot (like kicking dirt on a flame, it will stoke coals and greatly increase that heat under the ashes) i can almost understand the need of all Five powers; Spirit to start it all because of it's mind/body affects, Water because of all the water in the body, Fire to lessen the stress on the body and to give power to the weave so it isn't stollen from the recipiant and produceing Shock (warmth is how EMT's stopo shock)Earth, because we are carbon based and also, Fire and Earth would result in charcole(burning trees), which is awsome at neutralizing piosons. Air is the only thing i have trouble seeing. I soppose it could be that it is to counteract the loss of oxigen in the blood that re3sults from open wounds, or to pump clean air back into the blood stream if there are things like co2. also it would help the Fire (like billows in a forge)so maybe Air is just to catalize the other four powers<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" />It is beter to be at the right hand of the devil than in his path, but if you have the power, stand by me and await our doomed foe <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-01-31 08:46:16
subject: <b>I like it -</b>
body:
Very nice theory.  As I re-read I will keep it in mind.  Thanks and by the way - write another<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="blue">Bondholder of Neroto Yoduff &amp; TEO<br />Sce`c of Nicodemus26 The Mighty Midget<br />Ambassador Isa ~ The Rebel Blue!<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /></font></font><p></p>


created: 2005-01-31 19:53:05
subject: <b>Nice theory sid</b>
body:
I'm not sure I totally agree with some aspects, but it's still nice.<br /><br />Two points :  <br /><br />I have another explanation for the disappearance of the &quot;five powers Healing&quot;, though I don't really disagree spirit could be the base :  <br /><br />Moghedien once describes it as &quot;crude battlefield Healing&quot;, and pointed out that men were better at some Healing and women at others. <br /><br />IMO, that quite explains what happened to Healing. <br /><br />In the Breaking years, the AS &quot;recruits&quot; could not be trained properly - and female trained Restorers were used to combine their efforts with male Restorers most of the time.  In theory, it's quite possible that female Restorers, unless they were exceptional and dextrous like Semirhage, were specialists of the Spirit-Air-Water Healing while their male counterparts in the Link were specialists of Spirit-Fire-Earth. They used the 5P in Healing <i>together</i>, passing control of the circle as needed when very dextrous or powerful Fire or Water was needed by the patient, etc.<br /><br />With the males gone and Linked Healing no longer possible, with Healing being needed urgently during disasters and in War, the Restorers might have given up trying to teach their pupils 5 Power Healing because it was too complex and delicate and too few women could really master it fully. They decided to wait until better times. When the Breaking ended, with the original AoL AS all dead, apparently, the true Healing had disappeared.<br /><br />The other point is about Graendal.  You say she used the OP to cure her mental patients and that Compulsion derives from this.<br /><br />With the information we have (guide/series), Graendal was a psychiatrist who treated mental patients that the One Power could do nothing for. <br /><br />I think it's more likely Graendal would have developped to its full potential Compulsion based on her knowledge on the human mind and behavior than it being strictly derived from OP &quot;mind healing&quot;.<br /><br />However, with the Aol Ethics, I guess it's possible that people would trust Aes Sedai Restorers enough to handle &quot;OP Hypnosis&quot; as part of a mental therapy.  The limitations would be burdensome though... Compulsion would work great as a therapy only if the person you Compel really desires the suggestions to change/heal you were trying to implant in his/her brain, and Compulsion is not without many undesirable side-effects. <br /><br />In the end I think it's more likely that &quot;OP hypnosis&quot; was known to the Aolers but not very used in medicine, until someone, Graendal perhaps, created Compulsion out of it. <br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /> <br /><br /><br /><br /><br /> <br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="images/personalsmilies/30778.gif" />Wheel of Time Reference Library : Articles, maps, charts and misc.<img src="images/personalsmilies/30778.gif" /><br /><br /></font><p><a href="http://13depository.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">The Thirteenth Depository - a Wheel of Time Blog</a></p><p></p>


created: 2005-01-31 23:17:17
subject: <b>what could be done with four?</b>
body:
We see what can be done with three in modern aes sedai healing and we see what can be done with five powers but what could Egwene possibly do with the three female powers and a good talent with a fourth (male power). We already see the sisters with some or a bit of talent in earth making cuendillar. I wonder what else could be done with four powers. Hopefully we will see some more rediscovered talents in the rest of the series. I am also waiting to see what kind of healing can be done with men and women linked possibly using all five powers at massive strengths and abillities in them.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Boogedy... Boogedy... Boo!<br />-The drunk guy dressed like a zombie in Porkies</font><p></p>


created: 2005-02-01 17:52:10
subject: <b>Nice theory, sidious</b>
body:
The 5 Powers are not my expertise, so can make no criticisms.<br /><br />Just one note, Egwene cannot heal any better than Elayne, so don`t believe Earth would be any help, unless linked with other Healers.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2005-02-04 16:55:25
subject: <b>interesting theory</b>
body:
i agree with halfdeadchicken<br /><br />i wonder, when nynaeve showed how to heal stilling, (siuan and leane) aes sedai around said something along the lines of &quot;i can see how earth would be good for the heart...&quot; which suggests strongly that all powers are usefull in healing.<br /><br />i dont know how the people who write these theories think of them. however, keep'em comin!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">-Sabin<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2006-02-04 13:00:02
subject: <b>Morie is also good in fire too</b>
body:
Moriane, she drew on saidar through an angreal she has and created a fairly long wall of fire in Bk 1 to stop trollocs advancing on them. Just as they were reaching Shadar Logth. She also used several weaves of fire to her advantage through out before she faced Lanfear.<br /><br />So I believe she is strong in Fire, Air and Water. Her healing wasn't as good because her power in Spirit wasn't up above average. So naturally her healing weaves won't be as effective.<br /><br />And sorry for the misspells... It's 5am and I haven't slept yet... Oh my... &gt;.&gt;  I need that funny weave to rid me of tiredness... Just this once. Heh...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">http://tinyurl.com/k4za4<br /><b>&quot;Intuitively Obviously Revealed!&quot;</b> <br />Submitted by kcf<br /><br />http://tinyurl.com/jcxpw<br /><b>&quot;The Power that resides in the Kitchen&quot;</b><br />Submitted by sidious</font><p></p>


created: 2006-03-19 04:51:52
subject: <b>Hmm... Boosting the power of the other flows</b>
body:
I have read somewhere that the use of Spirit can strengthen flows of other powers. sidious said that the other powers are use to strengthen sprirt and I think this is the harmony we're talking about when using the five powers.<br /><br />Like for example, a lightning strike of fire and air is being woven. To strength the weave itself, but the lightning, spirit is used in order to steady the weave and keep it either intact, so less chance of faltering.<br /><br />I think Spirit can also be used in this way. Ha.  :p<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">http://tinyurl.com/k4za4<br /><b>&quot;Intuitively Obviously Revealed!&quot;</b> <br />Submitted by kcf<br /><br />http://tinyurl.com/jcxpw<br /><b>&quot;The Power that resides in the Kitchen&quot;</b><br />Submitted by sidious</font><p></p>


created: 2007-01-03 13:41:49
subject: <b>Slicing</b>
body:
Random information, but the only times we get the flows described in a female slicing weave, they are Spirit only... the best example which comes to mind is Nyn vs Moggy, most of that entire fight is Spirit vs Spirit.


created: 2005-02-01 03:34:44
subject: <b>Good thoughts</b>
body:
I don't believe that Arymilla just fakes her &quot;stupidity&quot;, though, and is actually a brilliant manipulator like Graendal, because, contrary to Graendal, also everyone who knows her states that Arymilla normally isn't capable enough to be a candidate for the throne.<br /><br />This is suspicious and speaks for Shadow support in my view.<br /><br />Considering Moridin's great interest in Andor, it also makes sense that the Shadow is behind the siege (like I believe the Shadow is behind the siege of Tear through DF High Lord Tedosian).<br />The whole chaos suits the Shadow, and the plan could be to bring Arymilla, the easiest to control, on the throne.<br /><br />Arymilla could be a DF or could have a DF close-by. <br />Her tormentor Jaq Lounal is certainly quite suspicious (maybe a DF; a few even believe he is Demandred, what I don't buy).<br />Another idea suggested on the WoT MB was, that Moghedien, as Moridin's pet, controls Arymilla.<br /><br />Furthermore, IIRC Arymilla was also among the nobles who stayed with Rahvin in the Caemlyn palace.  <br />Maybe she was already then recruited as a DF?<br /><br />It's also interesting that Arymilla is the person who faints when Rand mentions Sammael (LoC, ch.1), and when Taim is mentioned (LoC, ch.2).<br /><br />If this wasn't a fake, it would at least be ironical if a person who apparently fears Forsaken so much, later has to work with them.<br /><br />One last argument for Shadow involvement in the siege is, that the chapter in CoT where Arymilla &amp; Co. appear is called &quot;Gathering Darkness&quot; and has the Darkfriend icon. <br /><br />(btw, where is it said that Arymilla is blond?)


created: 2005-02-01 04:14:22
subject: <b>Brown eyes, brown eyes but no blonde hair</b>
body:
I've made a fair search but I can't find any mention of Arymilla's supposed blonde hair. She is constantly described as having brown eyes, wide, deep brown eyes at that. Elenia Sarand is described as having the honey-coloured hair. Perhaps you mistook them?<br /><br />Apart from that a well represented group of thoughts. I agree with you that she is either a DF or being closely manipulated by the Shadow.<br /><br />Well done.


created: 2005-02-01 04:18:00
subject: <b>...</b>
body:
Actually Arymilla could complete the whole plot alone and without help even without without extremely outrageous intelligence, but just using the advantageous situation where nobody takes her seriously and some minor capabilities used in right place. She could be the case of the not very respected bonvivant Louis Bonaparte who suddenly found the chance to become Napoleon III. She could get somehow the needed information about the escort of Elenia and Naean from Aringill, and she could just use her talents to keep Lord Nasin under control. The last task is something she copes quite well, even if in not so subtle way. But subtle or not, it works perfectly, and actually Nasin is not a good object for subtle manipulation and it would rather require sertain degree of vulgarity to understand his desires well, to gain his trust in the right way and to manipulate him just in time. Arymilla's character is very well fitting for the task to control Nasin... The parallels with Graendal are valid even here, but Arymilla is too long time known to all other Andoran nobles as stupid bonvivant, and she doesn't actually need Grandal's brains and Graendal's sublte manipulative skills to complete what she completed.<br /><br />There is a slight possibility that the originator of the plot is King Roedran of Murandi, and he could be motivated for it and accomplish it alone without Shadow's help. There are hints about the increasing political activity of Roedran, of his spies in Caemlyn palace etc. We have also evidence about his diplomatic abilities. Roedran has lot of motives to cause such a rebellion if he could: The Andoran army in north Murandy is to be removed and for to do that, riots in Andor's heart would be of course usefull. Also having in mind that Roedran is also a bonvivant, the similarity to Arymilla's character could made her trust him more and being the best dupe for him to be used for his manipulations.<br /><br />However the Shadow is a much better candidate (now I admit: not the only candidate) for to be the originator of the rebellion, because of the Shadows activity in Caemlyn we know about. Hanlon has orders from Shiaine to make sabotages against Elayne's rule in the city - to cause fires in the city, to import traitors in the garrison etc... things that hit exactly Elayne's side in the struggle for succession (i.e. in favor of Arymilla's side). And we haven't seen Hanlons actions clearly targeted against another aspect of Elayne's interests (against her AS affairs, against her Seafolk affairsw, against her Kin affairs, against her family affairs, against the Aiels, Dragonsworn or anything else related to Rand), but only against her affairs related to the Andoran throne. Hanlon has also special tasks regarding Elayne. Whatever the Shadow wants from it, they attack Elayne now, and they try to do it via attempts to weaken her positions as candidate queen. A powerfull rebelion fits too well in this pattern. Also Lady Shiaine's activity towards the emissaries of the rebels is IMO a more significant hint.<br /><br />About Shadow's motivation: There is a known prophecy that the Shadow has really good reasons to know about, and it is actually the only known prophecy about tha role of the Andoran royal bloodline we have. I mean Elaida's prophecy. Elaida of course kept this prophecy in secret. But when she camo to Power she issued a decret to find Elayne, because she is &quot;the key&quot;. The last was something Elaida wrote explicitely in the decret. Elaida insisted a lot about this her order to be fulfilled and it couldn't remain unnoticed. When Elaida came under Alviarin's control, I doubt that Alviarin will be shy to ask Elaida what meant that about the &quot;key&quot;. So it's quite likely that the Shadow knows the Elaida's prophecy. In that case they will have enough reasons to struggle for control over &quot;the key&quot;. The rebellion is a significant tool to influence the process of the succession of the royal line.


created: 2005-02-01 13:48:07
subject: <b>Obvious ...</b>
body:
Actually I thought it was very obvious from the first reading that the Shadow was manipulating this rebellion and had Arymilla well in hand as their figurehead.  The only question was which Forsaken is behind it and why.


created: 2005-02-01 20:08:42
subject: <b>I can believe it</b>
body:
There is some pretty good evidince that she is a DF, or if not that the Shadow is behind it.<br />I am thinking of it this way:<br />Let's say she's not directly a DF. The Shadow would know of her current attempts to take the throne before, and use her to cause division.  Much like they divided the tower, if they can divide one of the more powerful nations in the land, so much the better for them.  As mentioned, they have divded the Tower, they have divded the Aiel (It was Asmodean afterall who put the dragon markings on Couladin), they pretty much have divded the whole western region between the DragonSworn (whom I believe are mostly darkfriends or the &quot;Prophet&quot; is or some kind of puppet for the shadow at the very least) and the Seanchan whom we can lay at the feet of Ishamael.<br /><br />The Shadow sees another oppertunity to divide more people, and they go at it.  Some of the houses following her could either be due to Shadow influence as well (either DF or compulsion) or it could be a combination of those houses don't want to see Trankand on the throne anymore after the Morgase debacle when she was under Rhavin's control, and they want to see anyone else, along with they'd rather see someone else more expendible challange so if she were to fail no one would care much about her, but if she succeeds, well, she now owes them huge favors.<br /><br />


created: 2005-02-02 04:13:42
subject: <b>One thing about the Shadow's motivation...</b>
body:
We can't assume anything is a secret, unless it is someone's thoughts.  Feelings openly known, at least in part, must be taken into consideration.  Elayne might think her relationship with Rand is a big secret, but Baile and Bashere have no problem talking openly about in front of groups of their soldiers, a few people in the Salidar group know of Elayne's feelings on the matter, probably all the Aiel do, and Moghedian both knows of Elayne's feelings and witnessed Rand's emotional reaction to thoughts of her in T'A'R in tFoH.  As Bashere said, &quot;...Elayne...would not like that...that means Rand al'Thor won't like it...&quot;  Suffice to say, that right there should provide any motivation for the Shadow to be f#ck!ng with Elayne's succession.  She's an easier target than Rand, and more constrained in what responses she can make (i.e. people have to believe she's moving against the Shadow: Rand doesn't need people to believe that he is killing Sammael or Rahvin, and he doesn't have to answer for killing Lord Brend or Lord Gaebril.  Elayne will get in trouble if she acts against the Shadow and Andorans think she is being high-handed or oppressive to her political opponents.  Morgase gave out full pardons to her opponents to keep Andoran politics a gentleman's game.  If Elayne starts offing people because they're Darkfriends, and Andorans think she's simply playing tougher, then the Andoran political scene gets a lot more brutal, and it turns into Cairhien West).  Why else would Shiane have promised Hanlon that he could rape her?  It seems a rather useless long-range gambit when there are so many worse tortures the Shadow could inflict, and so many more permanent ways of removing her as a political obstacle.  Considering Hanlon is in the game for immortality, the additional carnal reward is a little thin if they are simply offering her to keep him content.  But if they are planning that with the intention of upsetting Rand, it makes more sense.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


created: 2005-02-04 09:44:45
subject: <b>nice</b>
body:
i really enjoyed both the theory and the blackboard post rite at the end there. one thing that always stuck out in my mind however was the warder bond that elayne now holds on rand. this means that if someone shields/ forkroots her and then tries to rape her rand will know through the bone and will most likely come to her rescue. the implications of this are severe, because it could distract him at a vital moment and cause him to make a mistake (fighting forsaken) or drop his guard (seanchan negotiations) or rush into trap as he tries to save elayne.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> let the speedbart ride again upon the winds of time <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Made the second post on the new WoTMB2 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-02-08 12:48:42
subject: <b>A couple addenda</b>
body:
1) Anybody who has spies among the Aiel or who saw Lanfear's tantrum at the Cairhien docks knows of the connection between Rand and Aviendha, and Avi is also in Caemlyn and is significantly less secure than Elayne.<br /><br />2) The Shadow's current M.O. is to play both sides of the board and have agents attached to every power group, so even if they weren't behind Arymilla initially, you'd better believe they have agents in her camp now. <br /><br />3) Is anyone else a little suspicious of the dramatic decline in Nasin's sanity?  In LoC, he was described as &quot;a bit addled,&quot; but with the implication that he had simply been shaken up by recent events.  Now he's confusing Arymilla with his daughter and thinks that Elenia is his girlfriend.  It could be that senility just unexpectedly struck him all at once (which happens), but his deterioration has been awfully convenient for Arymilla.


created: 2005-02-20 13:28:41
subject: <b>yea</b>
body:
i agree with the guy above me, that is just a bit to suspicious. i can definitely belive arymilla a darkfriend, or having darkfriend influence.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">-Sabin<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-02-01 08:45:02
subject: <b>Some interesting observations</b>
body:
Certainly Faile has some &quot;Zarine&quot; traits because of her education at the Saldaean Court.<br />Maybe she will use her female attributes to convince/seduce Rolan, so that he helps her.<br /><br />Nevertheless I believe she is mainly (a) &quot;Faile&quot; now, and won't suffer the same fate like Zarine.<br />Even in Egwene's Dreams and Min's viewings she is symbolized as a falcon, which shows that this describes her best.<br /><br />Maybe it were just the romantic hopes of a mother to give her new born child a name like Zarine.<br />Because in LoC, ch.46, also Deira accepts that her daughter wants to be Faile now and calls her by this name, even while Davram has still problems to see her as a grown woman who can choose any man she loves (but then also starts to call her Faile).<br /><br />After this scene the name Zarine is never mentioned again.<br /><br />I also don't think it's so significant that Faile vows in the marriage as &quot;Zarine Bashere&quot;.<br />After all, that <i> is </i> her birth name, and a marriage a too formal and serious matter, as that you vow with your nickname.<br />


created: 2005-02-01 16:51:47
subject: <b>Agree totally with Etzel, plus</b>
body:
I think your depiction of the Sa`sara and &quot;Zarine&quot; being defined as &quot;doom&quot;, are too strong.<br /><br />Men fighting over the affections of the dancer are not a fight to the death, necessarily. It fits more in line with barroom brawls over a B-girl.<br /><br />Also, Deira naming her &quot;Zarine&quot; was her hopes for the characteristics, much like all parents have aspirations for their offspring.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2005-02-01 21:42:58
subject: <b>Only two problems</b>
body:
I disagree with your assessment of Deira as the &quot;ideal&quot; wife.  Bashere states in the prologue to CoT that other people think he and Deira are strange because they interact differently than many Saldaeans.  The women attending Deira (the wives of his officers) seem to believe this by their behavior around them, so I don't think she is an example of the Ultimate Saldaean Wife.  Faile might SEE her as the that ideal, and be striving to acheive that, either consciously or subconsciously, but that would be a result of her being raised by Deira, not Deira's exemplifying the ideal traits of a Saldaean wife.  Also I believe that Faile's use of the name Zarine was her way of being formal and official - Faile is her (second) hunter's name, and she became a Hunter to find adventure and glory, and deny her background and upbringing.  Remember she began using Faile out of embarassment at sharing her name with a horse.  Faile is a name chosen for rather silly and immature reasons.  Her real name, like it or not is Zarine, and that's how she is supposed to sign it legally for vey important things: using the name Zarine when taking her wedding vows (lest we forget, a wedding vow is a serious formal oath) is simply an indication that this is a serious business for her, and not the WoT equivalent of a quickie weedding in Vegas that seems like a bad idea once you're sober or in Faile's case, once the adventure is over and it's time to spend your life together.  Think about this in Real World terms - a teen-aged girl runs away from her studies, heads to a subtropical city for the big, once-in-a-lifetime party, and then heads off in the company of some rather dubious self-centered arrogant bullies, watches a muscular young man from a much lower income brackett free an exotic foreigner from captivity, and beat up the local cops.  She ditches her previous plan, and leaps on to a boat pulling away from the docks, and later runs off to his old 'hood with him, and marries him much faster than any customs or rules permit.  The real shocker is that Daddy heard him out before killing Perrin on the spot and sending her to a convent for twenty years.  Faile's use of her official name was her way of saying &quot;This is real and serious, and not some impulsive facet of my big adolescent adventure.&quot;<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


created: 2005-02-02 05:48:54
subject: <b>responses</b>
body:
to Etzel:<br />Faile is definitely mainly &quot;Faile&quot; now (and even earlier she was mainly &quot;Faile). But there is a significant aspect of her circumstances now that gives new forces to the Zarine mentality in her: it's her rivalship with Berelain. Thinking about a rival, Faile begins to think like &quot;Zarine&quot;. And she begins to act towards Perrin not in the manner she knows will have effect on Perrin, but with certain strange combination of challenging passion and cold unreachability combined with demonstrative misteriousness. This approach looks too much like mechanically applied standard strategy of seduction, placed not in it's real place and directed actually not to the seducted man but serving different purpose (the stereotype way to do it against a rival). The jealousy stuff moves Faile away from the true communication with Perrin and it even brings her away from her &quot;Faile&quot; ingredient.<br /><br />Now when Deira admitted Faile's new name, Faile would no more think about the &quot;Zarine&quot; traits as a pressure from her mother, but as her own business. And if she wants to be what she believes to be an ideal woman (and it's actually what Deira educated her), she will consider it to be her responsibility to care about. That makes a return of Zarine traits now more dangerous than they would be before Deira's acceptance of the new Faile. If Faile decides to be Zarine now, she will regard it to be her own choice. And her rivalship with Berelain can force her to decide so.<br /><br />Deira being romantic? Yest, she is a very romantic nature ... in her specific manner. We see what Deira admires - she admires dangerous life with real battles and bold warriors - that is what she is finding romantic, not the palace life. Deira is a nobblewoman, born in palace and palace was for her a given thing. What is attractive for her even now are the military adventures - look how she is reacting to Davram's military involvements. Also she knows that her daughter is a possible heir to the Saldean throne. Wouldn't e.g. Kirukan (who has also very interesting love life) be more romantic name in Deira's eyes? But Deira choses a name somewhat differing from her (Deira's) standards of romantic.<br /><br />And naming herself &quot;Zarine&quot; in the marriage vow just because being formal and bureauoratically correct? Actually Faile doesn't think about herself as about &quot;Zarine&quot; and even the Pattern doesn't think about her as &quot;Zarine&quot;. In other official cases - in her political acts, she also neves calls herself &quot;Zarine&quot;. She doesn't think about her name &quot;Faile&quot; as about a &quot;nickname&quot; but she pretends it to be her new true name. It's not a pseudonyme or alias, Faile is renaming herself most basically. <br /><br /><br />to Jofraz:<br />Men fighting for the affection of a dancer are not necessary todeath and in that case these fights for a B-girls are not called &quot;riots&quot;. But the fights caused by sa'sara dancers in Saldea are called &quot;riots&quot; and even &quot;rebellions&quot;. Therefore sa'sara is something more in sa'sara dancers than just B-Girls, and these dancers caused much more than brawls. Also why would the Saldean Queens incriminate sa'sara if it was only tavern stuff? Because of immorality? I haven't noticed such care about morality in Saldea. The reason for the incrimination of sa'sara in Saldea was said in the books to be the danger of sa'sara for the peace in the country. Sa'sara is considered to be a rebelish act in Saldea not just &quot;immoral entertainment&quot;. <br />Also there are some historical examples in the real world when women with light behavior, becoming favorites of rulers caused very real wars or bloodsheds. So the danger of such a dancer is depending of a highest status possible for such women. I have reasons to believe that it could be very high possible status in Saldea, because it is rumored that even a queen had practiced sa'sara for political reasons.<br /><br />And Deira really hoping her first born daughter being a sa'sara dancer? It sounds too weird for to believe it. Especially knowing Deira's character.<br /><br /><br />to Cannoli:<br />When I called Deira &quot;the Ideal Saldean wife&quot; I meant that Faile believes so. And this fact is decisive for Faile's life, not the actual state of Saldean ideal of a wife. However an living &quot;ideal wife&quot; for any culture (and living &quot;ideal&quot; ~insert a cultural role here~) will be allways different from usual members of the culture, because it is a trait of the ideal to be different from the reality and it is a trait of ideal characters to be not convenient ones to live with them (but really). A living ideal will be allways uncommon. (Isn't Galad for example a living &quot;ideal&quot; and isn't his behavior really uncommon?) So it is possible that Deira is still The Ideal of Saldeal wife with all the disadvantages of being living ideal. But even if there are differences between Deira and the true Saldean ideal, having in mind other saldeal women we ahve seen, Deira's principles are very similar to the standard saldean behavior, and Elyas was able to give Perrin excellently working advice how to deal with Faile and Elyas based his advice on his experience of living together with a number of Saldean women. I.e. the model working with most Saldean women is working also with the Deira-educated Faile. So Deira would be rather a variation of the Saldean wife archetype, an original developement of it, but not a deviation from it.<br /><br />&quot;Faile is a name chosen for rather silly and immature reasons.&quot;<br />True. But Faile apparently doesn't think so. And what is even more important - the Pattern itself doesn't think so, because it depicts Faile as a falcon. Trappen in the dream in Tear Faile took the shape of a falcon and that wouldnt's happen without the significant help of Faile's mindset, i.e. Faile already thought about herself as about a falcon at this time. The silly reaction of Faile in that case was a way a deep and powerfull trend in her psychological nature to find suddenly it's proper expression. After calling herself Faile for the first time, she seems to be surprised how good this name is for her, and she shouts again to Perrin something like &quot;yes, you will call me Faile from now&quot; with an emotion different form the first time she called herself so.<br /><br />&quot;Her real name, like it or not is Zarine, and that's how she is supposed to sign it legally for vey important things&quot; <br />... to sign it legally for important things like accepting a vow of vassal loyalty for example, where she called herself &quot;Faile&quot;... Faile had a lot cases to sign legally important things but she used the name Zarine only once. Also I haven't seen in Faile an affinity to be formal in her non-jealous intimate relations to Perrin.<br /><br />And having in mind that &quot;Zarine&quot; means one who breaks hearts of men, i.e. one who doesn't treat their feeling very seriously, I don't think that using exactly this true name is the best way to express your seriousness and responsibility. Imagine a marriage vow like &quot;I, Cleopatra Doe....&quot; even if the poor girl's name is really Cleopatra.


created: 2005-02-03 20:38:16
subject: <b>I think your theory is sound</b>
body:
and I agree and like it, but are you implying that Faile will die in the hands of the Shaido?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br /><br /> <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-02-04 04:01:58
subject: <b>Faile after Shaido</b>
body:
No I don't imply that Faile will die. Faile's death will not make Perrin situation better in any way, and it will not resolve any issues with the way Faile is treating her and Perrin's fates. It is possible that she dies, but if that happens, my theory will have importance only about the past, and will have no significant implications for the future.<br /><br />Actually I imply that Faile will be saved, and in this time the issues will come in their full range. Berelain made some new moves in her game, and this can make Faile get deeper in the image of Zarine. My implication for the future rescue of Faile is, that Perrin in this case will need very fast to find a way to break Faile's &quot;Zarine&quot; way of thinking, else Faile will do something stupid.<br /><br />


created: 2005-05-02 16:35:28
subject: <b>Additional thought?</b>
body:
How does 'Zarine' affect Faille's imprisonment?  Do you believe this could mean that she will make the Aiel love her, or have sex with him in order to free herself, and break Perrin's heart?


created: 2005-02-02 07:49:32
subject: <b>Ishamael and the Trolloc Wars</b>
body:
On one of the Tor-site questions Jordan answers as following:<br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Question: <br /><br />In Winters Heart, you mention that back in the Age of Legends, there were several other Forsaken that the Dark One had killed because he suspected they would betray him. What's their story? Were those people ever as high ranking as the 13 survivors, or where they more like high-ranking Dreadlords then actual Forsaken?<br /><br />Robert Jordan Answers:<br /><br />First off, Dreadlords was the name given to men and women who could channel and sided with the Shadow in the Trolloc Wars. Yes, the women were called Dreadlords, too. They might have liked to call themselves &quot;the Chosen,&quot; like the Forsaken, but feared to. The real Forsaken might not have appreciated it when they returned, as prophecies of the Shadow foretold would happen. Some of the Dreadlords had authority and responsibility equivalent to that of the Forsaken in the War of the Shadow, however. They ran the Shadow's side of the Trolloc Wars, though without the inherent ability to command the Myrddraal that the Forsaken possess, meaning they had to negotiate with them. Overall command at the beginning was in another's hands.</b></font><br /><br />Even if it is not explicitely mentioned in who's hands was the overall command, the options are not so much. Having in mind the Baal'zamons banner in the story about Manetheren's fall, it's apparent it's Ishamael. Having in mind the reports about Ishamael being free for circa 40 years in the time of 100 years War, there is some pattern in Ishamael's appearance in the world every 1000 years for a period. So it is very possible that Ishamael canceled his Trolloc Wars presence just because the 40-years frist expired and he was unable to stay longer outside Shayol Ghul (as consequence of him being &quot;partially&quot; sealed) .<br /><br />The banner of the Shadow in the Manetheren battle is called Baal'zamons Banner, so in that time Ishamael must have already called himself Baal'zamon. So if he was killed before, it has to happen before Trolloc Wars...<br /><br />But more likely is that he changed his name for to notify the change of his state after being sealed &quot;partially&quot; for some mysterious &quot;high prise&quot;.


created: 2005-02-02 08:53:43
subject: <b>Have to disagree.</b>
body:
Ishy used the name Ba'alzamon to pose as the DO and veil that he was at least only partially bound (and RJ used it to surprise the reader with the twist that Ishy wasn't the DO).<br /><br />It becomes clear from the paper Verin has in TDR, ch.21:<br />&quot;Heart of the Dark. Ba&#8217;alzamon. Name hidden within name<br />shrouded by name. Secret buried within secret cloaked by secret. Betrayer of Hope. Ishamael betrays all hope.<br />Truth burns and sears. Hope fails &#8216;before truth. A lie is our shield. Who can stand against the Heart of the Dark?<br />Who can face the Betrayer of Hope? Soul of shadow, Soul of the Shadow, he is...&quot;<br /><br />Besides, if Ishy had died and transmigrated, he should have a new body. <br />But no Forsaken ever indicates that the Ishy in the 3rd Age doesn't look like the Ishy in the AoL anymore. <br /><br />Also the other Forsaken still called him Ishamael, not Ba'alzamon.<br /><br />Furthermore, the difference between the *gars (or Cyndane) and Moridin is, that Moridin wasn't named by the DO, but chose this name:<br />&quot;He called himself Moridin, and surely no one had ever had more right to name himself Death.&quot; (Moridin's PoV in PoD, prologue)<br /><br />Therefore Ishy certainly also would have called himself Ba'alzamon if he had a good reason.<br /><br />Finally, that &quot;Ba'alzamon&quot; actually also might have been a name for the DO shows Aginor's comment in EoTW, ch.51, to Rand:<br />&quot;Ba'alzamon will give rewards beyond mortal dreaming for the one who brings you to Shayol Ghul. Yet my dreams have always been beyond those of other men, and I left mortality behind millennia ago. What difference if you serve the Great Lord of the Dark alive or dead?&quot;<br /><br />It's unlikely that Aginor means that he would bring Rand to Ishy, and that Ishy would reward him then. <br /><br />So, either it's a mistake by RJ, or Ba'alzamon was also a name for the DO.


created: 2005-02-02 11:45:08
subject: <b>I agree with Etzel</b>
body:
There is inconsistency in Forsaken behaviour around Ishy. First, they call him Ishy (unlike Moridin). Second, they KNOW it's Ishy in his body (unlike Moridin). <br /><br />And, as far as I know &quot;Ba&#8217;alzamon&quot; is the Trolloc name for the Dark One. It's very obvious that they would use his banner and would call Ishy that way since he is the only one who appeared before them for three thousands years. <br /><br />Also, Ishy never TOOK the name. When he appeared before Rand in the dream he said something like &quot;They call me Ba&#8217;alzamon&quot;, not &quot;My name is Ba&#8217;alzamon&quot;. It's the same technic of avoiding truth that Moiraine uses when she calls herself &quot;Lady Alys&quot;.<br />


created: 2005-02-02 13:55:33
subject: <b>The Aginor comment proves it...</b>
body:
In fact, Aginor, just a few short paragraphs before, said, &quot;Like Ishamael, we walk the world again...&quot; So he wasn't calling Ishy Ba'alzamon the whole time.<br /><br />As for Ishamael dying, the DO couldn't have reincarnated him.  We know now from RJ that the black cords were affixed to the Forsaken after their release, becasue the Dreadlords had no Taint-protection.  If he couldn't do that simple act, then how could he have enough power to strip a living body of its soul and memories?


created: 2005-02-02 15:35:06
subject: <b>Question before I vote</b>
body:
Are you saying that Ishamael lead the charge against Manetheren and was killed by Eldrene when her husband died in battle and Manetheren fell - was given a new body and re-named Ba'alzamon by Evil Lord of the Dark -- that the banner was named Ba&#8217;alzamon&#8217;s banner (in the books) because no one knew it really should have been Ishamael's banner? <br /><br />I don't buy that, but I haven't voted yet.<br /><br />More likely when he turned to the dark side he was given a new name which could very well have been before the battle for Manetheren.  But once you get wacked two times you don't get to keep you given name?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="blue">Bondholder of Neroto Yoduff &amp; TEO<br />Sce`c of Nicodemus26 The Mighty Midget<br />Ambassador Isa ~ The Rebel Blue!<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /></font></font><p></p>


created: 2005-02-02 15:51:59
subject: <b>Replies</b>
body:
<b>A Dragonburned Fool</b><br /><br />The banner may have been called Ba'alzamon's banner at a later time, as records of the Trolloc Wars ( and preceding times ) would have been destroyed in those very battles. The White Tower itself was invaded ( and partially destroyed, I think ). Of course, I'm not sure when or where he died, though I am convinced he did, at some point.<br /><br /><b>Etzel</b><br /><br />Ishamael never actually passes himself off as Shai'tan. Other people associate the two because they are convinced that all of the Forsaken, including Ishamael, are bound in Shayol Ghul, and so these references to &quot;Ba'alzamon&quot; must refer to Shai'tan, as he is obviously the mastermind behind the Shadow's actions.<br /><br />It's strange that non of the Forsaken ever remark on the changes in Ishamael. And changes there were. Even if you don't believe that he died, when he was last seen, he did not yet have the eyes and mouth of fire, as can be seen from <i>Dragonmount</i>. If they never mention that, maybe they never mention his change of body? Maybe they believe it is normal for people to change in three millenia?<br /><br />We've never seen a Forsaken actually call Ba'alzamon Ishamael to his face.<br /><br />Ishamael may have chnaged his name when becoming Moridin to put his past errors behind him, just like he did when he became Ba'alzamon. It is highly unlikely that Ba'alzamon is one of Shai'tan's names, for one thing, we never hear it except when it could be attributed to Ishamael, and practically never after his death. We've never actually heard a Trolloc, or a Fade call Shai'tan &quot;Ba'alzamon&quot;. Aginor's comment is most certainly not referring to Shai'tan, however.<br /><br />Think of Shai'tan's &quot;Let the Lord of Chaos rule&quot; plan. None of the Forsaken ever think of contradicting their Great Lord's desires. When Sammael suggests it, Graendal replies that she is no fool. If Shai'tan had asked to have Rand alive, not one of the Forsaken would have openly disobeyed. None would have dared. Aginor thinks his dreams have always been beyond those of normal men, but he still likes his immortality, his power, doesn't he? He still wishes to be Nae'blis? So yes, in fact it's more than probable Ishamael was referred to in that phrase.<br /><br /><b>Skeeve The Great</b><br /><br />The Forsaken call Ba'alzamon Ishamael, but never to his face. And the Trolloc name for Shai'tan is the idea Aes Sedai have, and they have been wrong on several occasions.<br /><br /><b>AgingComputer</b><br /><br />I didn't know that about not having the taint protection. That could, indeed be a flaw in the theory, but then again, we don't know the relative complexity of those tasks. The taint protection might actually be harder than reincranation. We know that Shai'tan had at least <i>some</i> influence during Ishamael's freedom periods, or he would have been unable to grant the True Power, which Ishamael obviously used in abundance. Maybe he did, in fact, have the strength to reincarnate Ishamael. Reincarnating one man could have been simpler than binding hundreds of dreadlords with black cords.<br /><br />Besides, does it say that Shai'tan <i>could not</i> or <i>did not</i>? It seems he needed Rand, and the Dragon might not have been born if all these Dreadlords had been victorious ( and possible still alive due to immortality? ).<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>War must be, while we defend our lives against a destroyer who would devour all; but I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend</i><br />~Faramir</font><p></p>


created: 2005-02-02 19:06:58
subject: <b>As to Fanatic Templar's comments...</b>
body:
&quot;We've never actually heard a Trolloc, or a Fade call Shai'tan &quot;Ba'alzamon&quot;. <br /><br />Correct me if I'm wrong, but have we ever heard a Trolloc or Fade even talk about Shai'tan?  I don't believe we have...ever.  So that in and of itself is not proof that shadowspawn don't call Shai'tan &quot;Ba'alzamon.&quot;  The absence of proof either way does not negate the idea.<br /><br />&quot;We know that Shai'tan had at least some influence during Ishamael's freedom periods, or he would have been unable to grant the True Power, which Ishamael obviously used in abundance.&quot; <br /><br />You cannot necessarily make that assumption.  The seal on the prison kept the Dark One from touching the outside world.  The forsaken were trapped in the sealing and were essentially on the Dark One's side of the seal, sealed away from the outside world.  Ishamael had the ability to straddle that seal and therefore did not need the Dark One to extend the True Power outside of the seal.  Think of it this way: the Dark One is in a swimming pool and the seal prevents him from throwing water to anyone outside the pool.  Ishamael is halfway trapped, so he is essentially sitting on the side of the pool with his legs dangling in, and because of this, he can get around the seal to some degree without the Dark One having to somehow exert his power.


created: 2005-02-02 19:30:54
subject: <b>More replies</b>
body:
<b>SR71</b><br /><br />I'm not sure whether Ishamael died in the attack on Manetheren, but I doubt he led the charge himself. He was most probably on the scene, watching from behind a Skulker's Mask.<br /><br />Ba'alzamon would be the name he was given ( or likely took for himself ) after he was reincarnated.<br /> <br /><b>Asmodean`s Drummer</b><br /><br />You're right, we never actually hear a Trolloc or Fade talk directly about Shai'tan. What I was trying to say was that we have no evidence that the name Ba'alzamon actually refers to Shai'tan. Like I explained in my theory, Ishamael avoids using one of his Great Lord's titles.<br /><br />As for the True Power, you might be right. Or you could be wrong. I always took the fact that the True Power came &quot;directly from the Great Lord&quot; to mean that Shai'tan had to directly grant the power to his followers, and touch them in some way. I also think that it requires the black cords to transmit, which would mean that Ishamael, at least, had those cords during his freedom jaunts. Did anybody develop a full-fledged theory about the True Power? It could be worth a look.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>War must be, while we defend our lives against a destroyer who would devour all; but I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend</i><br />~Faramir</font><p></p>


created: 2005-02-02 21:46:56
subject: <b>More flaws</b>
body:
If Ishy died, then he no longer would have been &quot;partially bound,&quot; which is the only way one can explain his flickering image at Shadar Logoth and inability to do anything physically in TEOTW.  His soul would have gone to the soul pool, and would have been stuck back into another body (assuming that reincarnating is easier than Taint protection).  Then his new body, unconnected to the Ishy body that was sealed, would be completely free of the Bore and ready to do some damage.  Nope, he was clearly bound in TEOTW (and possibly TGH, as well).<br /><br />As for the other Forsaken, look at it this way.  They call him Ishamael, they think of him as Ishamael, they even think about how he held them together... as Ishamael.  But Demandred thinks of Osan'gar and Aran'gar as Osan'gar and Aran'gar, not Aginor and Balthamel.  Same thing with Moridin.  He is Moridin, not Ishamael, or even Ba'alzamon.  The culture in the AOL seemed to be very fixated on names.  If Ishy chose a new name, or the DO gave him a new name, then the other Forsaken would have referred to him as &quot;Ba'alzamon&quot; instead of Ishamael.


created: 2005-02-02 22:13:47
subject: <b>Reply</b>
body:
Your first point depends if it the sealing involves primarily the body or the soul. The body seems to be prserved, except in the case of Aginor and Belthamel, so it could be, but if it's the body, could Ishamael have actually entered the world entirely? And he surely was physically present as Artur Hawkwing's advisor. If he was physically released, then how would he be drawn back?<br /><br />If the soul is sealed, however, it would allow Ishamael to go out physically, while still remaining connected to the bore. Maybe like Shaidar Haran's having to return to Shayol Ghul periodically. There is a lot of similarities between those two. If the soul is the  part that is bound, then it would be possible for Ishamael to recieve his Ba'alzamon body and still be bound.<br /><br />And the other Forsaken call him Ishamael, but they were sealed when he died. The only one ever to refer to him as Ba'alzamon is Aginor - who coincidentally, could look out at the world while sealed within the bore, and might have seen Ishamael's death. Once again, I bring up the fact noone ever called him Ishamael to his face.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>War must be, while we defend our lives against a destroyer who would devour all; but I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend</i><br />~Faramir</font><p></p>


created: 2005-02-02 22:41:31
subject: <b>Disagree</b>
body:
Let's see where the name was mentioned in conversations:<br /><br />in EotW, I don't think Ishy was named Ba&#8217;alzamon. He never used the Dark One's name directly, he said to Rand that they call him Ba&#8217;alzamon. But Aginor refer to the Dark One as Ba&#8217;alzamon, and I don't think he was talking about Ishy.<br /><br />Also, on the famous DF meeting in the tGH, Ishy introduced himself like &quot;I have many names, but you know me as Ba&#8217;alzamon&quot;. Again, not direct usage. His known to DF as Ba&#8217;alzamon. <br /><br />In tDR, Selene says to Rand something like she is not a DF, she is not that stupid enough to follow Ba&#8217;alzamon in return for power and immortality. We can agrue who was Selene, but one thing for certain, it was a Forsaken talking about DO. Later she tells Mat that he has other choices and he doesn't have to be with Aes Sedai or hunted by Ba&#8217;alzamon's followers. Later, in TAR Silvie meets Egwene and talks to her. She says something like &quot;Ishamael - fool!&quot;, and when asked by Egwene, she says that when you call Forsaken fool you are deflecting his power over you and even DO can't have power over you if you call it fool. Then she suggested to try and call &quot;Ba&#8217;alzamon - fool&quot;. Clearly, Silvie was Lanfear and she was talking about DO here, not Ishamael. <br /><br />Later on, the name was used only in good guys POVs.<br /><br />So, considering these evidence, I beleive that Ba&#8217;alzamon is not truly Ishy's name.<br /><br />Another one point I disagree. You said &quot;First off, Ishamael was no general. He always operated from the shadows&quot;. That is not true. When the War of Shadow started LTT was fighting Shadow forces which where commanded by Ishamael himself. There was a great battle at the gate of Paaran Disen where the Dragon &quot;soundly defeated Elan Morin Tedronai&quot; (according to BWB). Only much later after that battle, Demandred and Sammael went to the Shadow.<br /><br />


created: 2005-02-02 23:59:57
subject: <b>To Fanatic-Templar</b>
body:
<font size="-1"><b>Your first point depends if it the sealing involves primarily the body or the soul. The body seems to be prserved, except in the case of Aginor and Belthamel, so it could be, but if it's the body, could Ishamael have actually entered the world entirely? And he surely was physically present as Artur Hawkwing's advisor. If he was physically released, then how would he be drawn back?</b></font><br /><br />True, we don't know exactly how Ishy was in the world and then drawn back in.  But there is so much about his sealing we don't know.  Let's see.  If he was killed during the Trolloc Wars, or anywhere, his soul would leave his body and go to the &quot;soul pool.&quot;  Not back to the DO's prison.  One can't transfer a soul into a new body the instant he dies.  Besides, it would take some time for a new body to be prepared, it's memories and soul stripped clean.  And I hold to my point that once Ishy's soul had gone to the pool, and then placed into a new body, it would NOT be bound to the DO's prison.<br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>And the other Forsaken call him Ishamael, but they were sealed when he died. The only one ever to refer to him as Ba'alzamon is Aginor - who coincidentally, could look out at the world while sealed within the bore, and might have seen Ishamael's death. Once again, I bring up the fact noone ever called him Ishamael to his face.</b></font><br /><br />Well, the obvious reason for this is that we didn't see any Forsaken talking to Ishy.  The one time we were privy to a social, when Ishy talks to Rahvin and Be'lal in TDR, we couldn't hear what they were saying.  The fact remains that the Forsaken still call him &quot;Ishamael&quot; among themselves, despite the fact that they were out and about, in tandem with Ishy, for perhaps a year.<br /><br />Let's see who says &quot;Ba'alzamon&quot;:<br /><br />Aginor (TEOTW):  &quot;Ba'alzamon will give rewards beyond imagining to the one who brings you to Shayol Ghul.&quot;  A clear reference to the DO.  Why would Aginor say Ishy would reward him?<br /><br />Lanfear (TDR):  &quot;Those pathetic followers of Ba'alzamon...&quot; A possible DO reference.  This is the most ambiguous of the quotes.  Could potentially be referring to Ishy, because Ishy's been commanding the DF's in the 3000 year interval.<br /><br />Lanfear (TDR):  &quot;Say it, girl.  Ba'alzamon is a fool!&quot;  Again ambiguous.  Probably a reference to Ishy.  It's unlikely she would blaspheme the DO in such a way.  It could be a test to see if Egwene would react to the name, if Ishy had been using Egwene in any plots.<br /><br />Now, how says Ishamael?<br /><br />Aginor (TEOTW):  &quot;Like Ishamael, we walk the world again...&quot;<br />Lanfear (TGH):  &quot;Ishamael thinks he controls events, but I do.&quot;<br />Lanfear (TDR):  &quot;Ishamael is a fool!&quot;<br />Moghedien (TSR):  &quot;The other sounds like Ishamael, to me.&quot;<br />Graendal (FOH and LOC):  References as to how he was half-mad, and how he managed to keep the Forsaken from each others throats.<br /><br />So I think that Ba'alzamon, while originally the name for the DO, was used by Ishy throughout the Third Age, to inspire fear in his enemies (and followers).  Clearly he couldn't assume the title &quot;Shai'tan&quot;, that would be going too far, even for him.  But the Trolloc name for the DO?  He could take it and mold it to his purposes, and still inspire the fear that the DO causes.<br /><br />The Forsaken awaken, he might have introduced himself as &quot;Ba'alzamon,&quot; probably prompting the notion that he was half-mad.  Noone but a madman would have assumed a name that was representative of the DO when the Forsaken were sealed, right?  No, it's just another way to keep the Forsaken off-balance.  The only times we have references to Ba'alzamon as Ishy is by Lanfear, and this could be a mark of scorn -- seeing as how she was the only one to openly challenge Ishy (in TDR).  Perhaps her use of his &quot;DO&quot; name was a reminder to herself that he was not the DO or even Nae'blis and that she could still subvert him.<br /><br />Or perhaps felt that he was encroaching on her monopoly of self-naming <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />I still think that saying Ishy died is a stretch.


created: 2005-02-03 00:24:29
subject: <b>With all due respect...</b>
body:
Aahzmandius, all you have said seems to only argue in favour of my theory.<br /><br />Aginor's comment <i>clearly</i> refers to Ishamael, unless you're suggesting that he would directly disobey his Great Lord of the Dark. And we've never seen a Forsaken do that. They even think that Demandred would not dare decieve them with the Great Lord's words, in <i>Lord of Chaos</i>.<br /><br />The fact that he doesn't directly say his name is Ba'alzamon means little. Ba'alzamon has never been used to refer to Shai'tan, only Ishamael. That is the name they would know him as, because his other names are lost, names of a past life. Consider that when he introduces himself to Moghedien, he says <i>You may call me Moridin</i>. The only time he makes a direct reference to his name is in <i>Dragonmount</i>: &quot;Once, I was called Elan Morin Tedronai, but now...&quot; and &quot;Yes, Betrayer of Hope. So have men named me, just as they named you Dragon, but unlike you I embrace the name.&quot; This goes with the first part of my theory. He wants men to kneel before Ishamael, wishes he could keep it, but because he died, people call him Ba'alzamon, or Moridin.<br /><br />I don't recall Selene speaking with Rand in <i>The Dragon Reborn</i>, but I'd like a reference, please. You may be referring to Mat, however, and I have the quote below. The Silvie incident points at Ba'alzamon being Ishamael as well. I've never heard of a Forsaken pushing people to call Shai'tan a fool. Many have named Ishamael one, however. In fact, the phrasing points out the same. &quot;Ishamael is a fool! (...) Try it, my Lady. Say, Ba'alzamon is a fool.&quot; It clearly points to Ba'alzamon being the aforementioned Ishamael. It could be replaced by &quot;Say the man is a fool&quot; or &quot;Say he is a fool&quot;. What's more, she also just said, &quot;It turns the <i>Forsaken</i>'s power, calling them fools.&quot;<br /><br />As for Mat, Selene says &quot;One of those pathetic followers of Ba'alzamon who think he will give them immortality and power?&quot; The &quot;pathetic followers&quot; refer to the Darkfriends at the social, who obviously follow Ishamael. She already has immortality and power, from the hands of Shai'tan. Ba'alzamon cannot grant it, as he is only a man. Which is why the Darkfriends are fools.<br /><br />The other quote is &quot;You need not be a puppet for the White Tower or prey for Ba'alzamon's darkfriends.&quot;<br /><br />Once again referring to the Ishamael's followers. Remember that since <i>The Great Hunt</i>, Ishamael and Selene have been aiming two very distinct goals. Selene has saved Rand from many of Ishamael's traps. Which makes Selene's comments against Ba'alzamon completely logical. If Ba'alzamon were Shai'tan, they would make little sense.<br /><br /><b>Later on, the name was used only in good guys POVs.</b><br /><br />Exactly. Ba'alzamon is not one of Shai'tan's names, only Ishamael's. After Ishamael dies, the name is no longer used. Ishamael is Ba'alzamon and Ba'alzamon is Ishamael.<br /><br />As for his general skills, I said that he <i>preferred</i> to lead from the shadows, yet was a brillant strategist and probably commanded the Shadow's army in Manetheren. Your argument about him in fact being a general only supports this part of the theory.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>War must be, while we defend our lives against a destroyer who would devour all; but I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend</i><br />~Faramir</font><p></p>


created: 2005-02-03 05:29:36
subject: <b>After re-reading the theory</b>
body:
and the arguments for and against.  I vote for, you make good arguments.  I think you are right.<br /><br />Thanks for the theory.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="blue">Bondholder of Neroto Yoduff &amp; TEO<br />Sce`c of Nicodemus26 The Mighty Midget<br />Ambassador Isa ~ The Rebel Blue!<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /></font></font><p></p>


created: 2005-02-03 11:00:44
subject: <b>...</b>
body:
There is some difference in the way all the Forsaken think about Ishamael ubtil tDR, and the way they think about Moridin. Usually the Forsaken PoVs call Moridin with the name &quot;Moridin&quot;, even when Moridin is not present.<br /><br />The physical description of Baalzamon in the times when he turns off the fires of his eyes, matches the physical description of Elan Morin from the Prologue of EoTW.<br /><br />And wasn't the first time when in tEotW was explained the name &quot;Baalzamon&quot; (it was either Moiraine or Lan), that it was a Trolloc-language word that the Trollocs used to call the Dark One?


created: 2005-02-03 11:52:47
subject: <b>nice theory</b>
body:
One more piece of evidence that I don't think was mentioned is that the DO brings Ishy back to life as Moridin. That alone suggests that Ba'alzamon could never have been a name for the DO, since I can't see the DO rewarding a Forsaken that's used his name with reincarnation. I don't really buy the previous death stuff, though. I'd guess the Trollocs just came up with that name for Ishy at some point, and he liked it so much he started using it himself.


created: 2005-02-03 13:16:36
subject: <b>Thank you all for your comments.</b>
body:
<b>a dragonburned fool</b><br /><br />The reason why I think they think of him as Ishamael is because they were sealed when Ishamael died and was revived.<br /><br />Actually, we don't get any good description of Ishamael in <i>Dragonmount</i>. Other than his clothing and the fact that he was not so tall as Lews Therin, we are told practically nothing.<br /><br />Moiraine ( and most Aes Sedai, I suppose ) believe Ba'alzamon to be the Trolloc name for Shai'tan. But Aes Sedai have been wrong.  On Ishamael more than on most subjects.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>War must be, while we defend our lives against a destroyer who would devour all; but I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend</i><br />~Faramir</font><p></p>


created: 2005-02-03 14:10:24
subject: <b>*petulantly*</b>
body:
Fanatic-Templar, you didn't respond to my comments!  I demand rebuttals!  Scroll back up and read them.<br /><br />...Please? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" />


created: 2005-02-03 16:42:50
subject: <b>I don't think so</b>
body:
You've put a lot of effort into the theory but I can't agree. It is just too unlikely.It's actually impossible.<br /><br />I find the argument about <i>Dragonmount</i> weak because it is no surprise that Lews Therin didn't recognise Ishamael's fiery appearance. They were the the two arch-generals of opposing sides and would never have seen one another. Would Churchill know if Hitler's appearance changed? We can only assume that Ishamael's security was at least as fearsome as Lews Therin's.<br /><br />Another argument I have is about Ishamael not being a general. In fact , minor as this point may seem , he was the top captain-general according to the Guide. He was defeated by Lews Therin at the gates of Paaren Disen and this is the only battle we really know of in the War of Power.<br /><br />My greatest argument against this theory is that RJ said that the Dark One's powers were invalidated by the sealing of the Bore. The remaining male Forsaken went mad and the women also eventually died. If Ishamael did die , it would have been the ultimate end for him because the Dark One's powers were totally useless until recently.<br /><br />When we see Ishamael in <i>Dragonmount</i> his appearance is absolutely identical to his appearances as Baalzamon. He could not be reincarnated into the same body if he died. He clearly appeared to Be'lal and Rahvin with his fiery appearance and they clearly deferred to him as their previous leader.<br /><br />And of course the most damning quote of all. Lews Therin tells Rand ... &quot;I finally remember killing Ishamael. He deserved to die. Lanfear deserved to die too but I'm glad it wasn't I who killed her.&quot;<br /><br />There can be no mistaking. Ishamael from the Age of Legends lived and reappeared to Rand and the Forsaken recently.<br /><br />If this goes on , I'll be forced to move towards my books and bring out my knife-sharp quotes. So please don't rattle the sabre <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> Good theory btw.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">A One Power researcher<br />Defender of Lanfear<br />Grand Ninja-Nae'blis to be feared <br />Original Warder to Isa <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br />New Warder to Nossie <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />Toy to Seriana <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/winky.gif" border="0" /><br />Mystified by a Fan <br />Bonded Phelix - I was young, it happened so fast.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-02-03 17:33:21
subject:
<b>Oops! Sorry AgingComputer, must have skipped it <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" />.</b>

body:
But is the connection severed by dieing? They keep their ability to channel, which seems at least partially genetic. they also seem to remain connected to Shai'tan, unless he reconnects himself everytime they get a new body. Can't his dead soul be bound behind the bore, without a body? As you said, we don't know enough to debate this point efficiently.<br /><br />But they didn't see his death. Maybe they don't know? Well, that's another debate. But we do hear Ba'alzamon talking with Lanfear in <i>Daughter of the Night</i>. Lanfear seems to avoid naming Ishamael/Ba'alzamon. Though she does name the Great Lord of the Dark and the Lord of Twillight.<br /><br /><b>Aginor (TEOTW): &quot;Ba'alzamon will give rewards beyond imagining to the one who brings you to Shayol Ghul.&quot;</b><br /><br />I can't understand how people think this refers to Shai'tan. Aginor would never directly disobey his Great Lord. In <i>Lord of Chaos</i>, we learn the Demandred would not even twist Shai'tan's words. So betrayal is definately out of the question. If Shai'tan wants Rand alive, the Forsaken obey.<br /><br /><b>Selene (TDR): &quot;Those pathetic followers of Ba'alzamon...&quot;</b> <br /><br />It refers to the Darkfriends of the <i>In the Shadow</i>, the prologue of <i>The Great Hunt</i>. After all, she is herself a follower of Shai'tan...<br /><br /><b>Silvie (TDR): &quot;Say it, girl. Ba'alzamon is a fool!&quot;</b> <br /><br />As I've explained previously, this refers to Ishamael. With the previous sentences, it is obvious.<br /><br />Now it <i>could</i> be the Trolloc name for Shai'tan. Except Ishamael never used any other of Shai'tan's titles. In the theory, I included the quote where he actively denies being the Father of Lies. So it seems improbable that he would take a name that actually belongs to Shai'tan. More likely, Aes Sedai, thinking Ishamael sealed, and hearing Trollocs speak of &quot;Ba'alzamon&quot; deduced they spoke of Shai'tan. After all, I doubt they actually asked them?<br /><br /><b>sidious</b><br /><br />The reference to Dragonmount in my theory was to point out that Ishamael wanted people to bow down to that name. A name given in scorn, that he would make them bow to. If you're referring to the blackboard, I used it to point out that there is no reference to Ishamael looking similar to Ba'alzamon in any way. He is described as having nice black and silver clothes, and being slightly shorter than Lews Therin. Oh, and another thing:<br /><br />&quot;<i>The black-clad man's eyes widened, darted to the body of the golden-haired woman, then back to Lews Therin.</i>&quot;<br /><br />All this without mentioning eyes of liquid fire?.<br /><br />If Ishamael was in fact a general, then that only adds to the probability of him being present at the Battle of Manetheren, doesn't it? That is a point for my theory.<br /><br />Shai'tan's powers were cut off with the seal, but the periods where Ishamael was released were probably periods where the seal was weaker, perhaps enough to reincarnate a soul that was bound to him as strongly as Ishamael's?<br /><br />Lews Therin hadn't revealed himself by <i>The Dragon Reborn</i>. But we know Rand and Lews Therin's memories mingle, so Lews Therin probably took a memory of killing Ishamael which was Rand's.<br /><br /><b>If this goes on , I'll be forced to move towards my books and bring out my knife-sharp quotes. So please don't rattle the sabre  Good theory btw.</b><br /><br />Thank you <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" />. And please do, if I can't defend my theory, it's because it's wrong. By all means, destroy it if this is the case.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>War must be, while we defend our lives against a destroyer who would devour all; but I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend</i><br />~Faramir</font><p></p>


created: 2005-02-05 05:11:28
subject: <b>Huge Flaw</b>
body:
I didn't see this mentioned but then again I skimmed through most of the comments. No one seems to bring up the point that during the time of the Trolloc Wars the Dark One was still sealed up fairly tight. So how could he reincarnate Ishmael? We have no evidence to suggest that the Dark One can reincarnate his followers at a time other than the present, where the seals are weak enough for him to do so.<br /><br />Since this is your theory, Fanatic Templar, the burden of proof is on you. Since I don't see this as provable (I'm across the Atlantic from my books so others might have to double check this) then your theory doesn't fly as this is the most important ingredient to it.


created: 2005-02-05 06:40:21
subject: <b>In the Dragon Reborn</b>
body:
I love these theories.  As I re-read the books and think about the theories I see bits and pieces more clearly.  <br /><br />In the Dragon Reborn, People of the Dragon --When Moraine tells Mat that he recognized Ba'alzamon or rather, the man who called hiimself Ba'alzamon not the dark one himself.  She then goes on to say &quot;I can be sure for the simplest of reasons, Nynaeve.  However fast decay took it, that was a man's body.  Can you believe that if the Dark One were killed he would leave a human body?  The man Rand killed was a man.  Perhaps he was the first of the Forsaken freed, or perhaps he was never entirely bound.&quot;  <br /><br />That would adhere to the part of your theory where you indicated that Ishamael may not have been bound and was there when Manethren was defeated.<br /><br />Again, thanks for the theories.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="blue">Bondholder of Neroto Yoduff &amp; TEO<br />Sce`c of Nicodemus26 The Mighty Midget<br />Ambassador Isa ~ The Rebel Blue!<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /></font></font><p></p>


created: 2005-02-05 14:13:25
subject: <b>Another Reply</b>
body:
Actually, for Ishamael to be capable to physically escape the bore means that the seals were weaker than usual. Think of the Seal as a living, breathing thing. It pulses, or breathes, or whatever. When it draws breath, the Seal is stronger, and Ishamael is bound. When it blows ( Heh, I'm <i>sure</i> there are better terms in english, but &quot;expires&quot; is the only thing I can come up with and sounds like death ), the Seal weaken, and Ishamael is free.<br /><br />We know that Shai'tan has at least <i>some</i> influence in these phases, because the True Power comes directly from Shai'tan, and we know Ba'alzamon used the True Power, as when he met with Padan Fain, three years before <i>The Eye of the World</i>, he already had the fire eyes, that come after the <i>saa</i>.<br /><br />We do not know how much power or influence it takes to reincarnate souls. But since we do know that Shai'tan had at least <i>some</i> influence, it is not impossible. And that <i>is</i> the weakest point of the theory, in my opinion.<br /><br />Thanks for your comments, everyone.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>War must be, while we defend our lives against a destroyer who would devour all; but I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend</i><br />~Faramir</font><p></p>


created: 2005-02-06 21:16:21
subject: <b>other possible death:</b>
body:
I'm not sure whether I agree or not, but this might be helpful...if it hasn't already been suggested...<br /><br />Occam's Razor - the fewer assumptions you make, the more likely you are to be correct<br /><br />I find it more likely that Ba'alzamon's banner was, in fact, Ba'alzamon's banner, and that his death occured during the assault on Shayol Ghul by the Hundred Companions.  when he was reincarnated (as Ba'alzamon), the process partially freed him from his prison<br /><br />this would also help to explain his perplexing ability to circumvent the Seals<br /><br />if that death freed him partially from his prison, then his death at Falme could have triggered his complete escape, after which he was reincarnated as Moridin<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">The past is buried.  Let it rest in peace.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-02-07 12:50:17
subject: <b>Could be</b>
body:
But his death and reincarnation as Moridin occurred in the Stone of Tear.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>War must be, while we defend our lives against a destroyer who would devour all; but I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend</i><br />~Faramir</font><p></p>


created: 2005-02-22 15:25:14
subject: <b>About the taint-protection</b>
body:
This is all in good humor, by the way, so no flames. (bad Ishy pun)<br /><br />But really, would Ishy really care if he got Taint-protection? Everybody says he was half-mad to begin with, and worse after 3000 years...besides, Ishy loves his True Power. *black dots fly over Nermid's eyes*


created: 2005-06-03 13:36:43
subject: <b>Interesting but no basis...</b>
body:
While I believe there can be NO doubt that all instances of &quot;Ba'alzamon&quot; refer to Ishy, to say that this infers he has died before and been renamed is a pure stretch. Nowhere does Ishamael indicate he has ever died before and I think if his appearance had been that of a different body then the other Forsaken would have said or thought something SOMEwhere.<br /><br />Fact: The name Ba'alzamon is Trolloc for &quot;Heart of the Dark&quot;.<br />Fact: Just because Aes Sedai believe something does not make it true.<br />Fact: Every Forsaken we have seen resurrected has received a new body.<br />Fact: At least one Aes Sedai was aware that Ishamael was not fully sealed in the Bore.<br /><br />Thus we can infer: <br /><br />1) During the Trolloc Wars Ishamael was present and sufficiently awed the Trollocs that they named him Heart of the Dark.<br />2) &quot;Modern&quot; Aes Sedai have not known that Ishy was not fully sealed and thus able to affect events and/or participate in them even if only cyclically, therefore they &quot;assumed&quot; the name was given for the Dark One. <br />3) While able to draw a soul into a new living body the Dark One cannot revive the dead flesh itself.<br />4) Ishy knows what the Aes Sedai believe and uses the name as a shield to make our ta'veren believe he is the Dark One without having to risk the blasphemy of saying he is the Dark One. <br />5) The Forsaken after escaping the Bore heard the name the Trollocs had given Ishy and used it, either believing it an apt name for Ishy or (more likely) mockingly.<br /><br />While none of this proves anything it does underscore the point that there is really no basis for believing that Ishy has been resurrected twice in this Age.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> Shel</font><p></p>


created: 2005-07-02 21:41:31
subject: <b>I agree with all of your assumptions,</b>
body:
except perhaps the first.<br /><br />In my theory, I draw attention to the ressemblance of the situation between Osan'gar and Ba'alzamon. Both Aginor and Ishamael are names that were given in scorn, but as quoted in the theory, the two men had desired to make people worship it. Seen how Ishamael felt about his name, it is strange that he would never use it. From the moment he calls himself Ba'alzamon, the name Ishamael never crosses his lips. From the moment he calls himself Moridin, Ba'alzamon is no more. I don't think this is a coincidence.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>War must be, while we defend our lives against a destroyer who would devour all; but I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend</i><br />~Faramir</font><p></p>


created: 2006-10-22 20:56:36
subject: <b>This Theory is currently invalidated.</b>
body:
On the message boards, DomA pointed out that a fragment of text ( <i>A World of Dreams</i>, <b>The Dragon Reborn</b> ) mentioning Ba'alzamon survived the Breaking - thus, it was written long before Ishamael could have died in Manetheren.<br /><br />I'll try to find a way around that, but for now, this theory's dead.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>War must be, while we defend our lives against a destroyer who would devour all; but I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend</i><br />~Faramir</font><p></p>


created: 2007-12-09 16:56:23
subject: <b>IT'S SHAI'TAN!</b>
body:
&quot;Aginor (TEOTW): &quot;Ba'alzamon will give rewards beyond imagining to the one who brings you to Shayol Ghul.&quot;<br /><br />I can't understand how people think this refers to Shai'tan. Aginor would never directly disobey his Great Lord. In Lord of Chaos, we learn the Demandred would not even twist Shai'tan's words. So betrayal is definately out of the question. If Shai'tan wants Rand alive, the Forsaken obey.&quot;<br /><br /><br />WHY WOULD ONE OF THE FORSAKEN THINK THAT ISHY CAN GIVE THEM REWARDS? HE COULDM&quot;T GIVE THEM ANYTHING THEY DIDN'T ALREADY HAVE.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I may be crazy but im still more---- OHH SHINY PENNY!<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Fear the ninja smiley<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ninja.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />ohhh pretty fire..Most not touch....OUCH IT BURNS!<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-02-03 08:57:06
subject: <b>Wow</b>
body:
True genius lies in simplicity, does it not?<br /><br />I think you may have truly hit on something here.  This theory does account for change in an eternal system that otherwise did not make much sense.  Moreover, it lends a certain circularity to the history of WOT civilization in that a culture's greatness contain the seeds of its own demise.<br /><br />This theory, if correct, opens up entire new lines of questions.<br /><br />1) Why did the thinness occur where it did?  RJ has acknowledged that the universe contains other planets and even other galaxies - so why should the thinness have occurred in a location detectable by humans?  Perhaps it is something of a local pollution phenomenon.<br /><br />2) Channeling lessened appreciably during the time since the AoL.  Would the thinness have gotten thicker during that time?  Or would the rate of thinning simply have slowed?<br /><br />3) Would the hole in the Pattern have eventually occurred even without Mierin drilling the Bore?  Perhaps in some ages it has.<br /><br />4) How the heck is the world going to get rid of all channeling?  I'll be pretty disappointed if, after TG, everybody wakes up the next day and cannot channel.  That would be kinda lame.<br /><br />Anyway, great job.  Very, very fascinating.  This would be something to submit to RJ as a question of the week - as opposed to asking which WOT character has the smelliest belly lint.<br /><br /><br />TFK


created: 2005-02-03 09:34:59
subject: <b>I like it</b>
body:
You have opened (no pun intended) a new way to look at RJ`s source of information.<br /><br />Perhaps he has drawn on the fact of the hole in the ozone layer caused by mankind`s use of carbon products, substituting the OP as the cause.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2005-02-03 09:53:03
subject: <b>to The Fisher King</b>
body:
In reference to the comment<br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>3) Would the hole in the Pattern have eventually occurred even without Mierin drilling the Bore? Perhaps in some ages it has.</b></font><br /><br />Reread the quotes. The thinness is what led to the Bore. It is not a result of the Bore.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Bob L. Sedai (a.k.a. Luge) <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /><br />Fighting off the Taint - <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tinfoilhat.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" />Thanks given to Burr, the ever-helpful theory critic<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />And to Light in the Night, fellow theorist extraordinaire<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Voted Best Screenname 1 (one) years in a row.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-02-03 11:38:29
subject: <b>Wow...</b>
body:
It makes so much sense.  It explains things about the Bore that never made sense anyway.  Why would the Bore have been drilled at the Collan Daam?  Because it could have been drilled anywhere, not because they could only sense the &quot;thinness&quot; at the Collan Daam.  Once the Bore is drilled the thinness can be sensed.<br /><br />Perhaps the whole fallacy with Rand's approach to the DO is not so much focusing on the seals, but to repair the &quot;thinness&quot; in the Pattern.  Surely there is some way to repair it.  He has envisioned things that he cannot see before, such as the Cleansing and the severing of Asmodean's black cords.  Neither of these things are physically tangible, but he managed to affect them just the same.<br /><br />If Rand can fix the thinness in the Pattern, the DO will be sealed away.  Who cares about the Bore then?  And once the thinness is gone, there will be no more channelling.  I can only imagine the suicide rates among AS and Asha'man.  It would be as bad as stilling and gentling them all.  The end of an Age usually results in the revamping of an entire social order, as in the Breaking.  With channellers impotent, we would see a social upheaval on a similar scale.  Every major power in Randland is based upon channelers.  The Sea Folk, the Seanchan, the Towers, even the Aiel to a lesser extent.<br /><br />On another note, is the ability to Dreamwalk also a result of this &quot;thinness&quot;?<br /><br />My main question is, though, how did Mierin and Beidomon sense the thinness in the first place.


created: 2005-02-03 11:56:21
subject: <b>is very good</b>
body:
it also can adequately explain why the seals are weakening while everything else that is cuendillar remains the same.  if the thinness is trying to reestablish itself, if is creating an alternate reality, and since the seals are the only thing preventing that from happening, then their reality is also being changes...very nice<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;It's ridiculous to suggest that a team could go through a season in our league without losing. It's comical, just comical.&quot; Alex Ferguson 27th September 2002<br /><br />gooner...red and white army...<br /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gimli.gif" border="0" /> my soulmate<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/clown.gif" border="0" /> my nemesis</font><p></p>


created: 2005-02-03 12:17:16
subject: <b>Responses</b>
body:
To Jofraz:<br /><br />The ozone layer is a great metaphor.  It totally describes what I was thinking.<br /><br /><br />To bobsledai:<br /><br />Yes, the Thinness enabled Mieren et al to drill the Bore.  If the use of the OP created this Thinness, then if it keeps happening, won't the Thinness increase?  In other words, wouldn't the use of the OP eventually just wear a hole in the Pattern the way carpet becomes first threadbare and then holey?<br /><br /><br />To AgingComputer:<br /><br />You state <font size="-1"><b> &quot;once the thinness is gone, there will be no more channelling.&quot; </b></font>  The theory posited that channeling caused the Thinness, not that the Thinness enabled channeling to occur.  <br /><br /><br /><br />TFK


created: 2005-02-03 13:01:46
subject: <b>how about this: balefire = miniBore</b>
body:
Very intriguing theory, Fisher King.  My understanding at this point is that:<br /><br />1. Some nebulous time in the past, channeling starts.<br />questions: when and how was it discovered?<br /><br />2. As stronger channelers began channeling more regularly, a thinness developed in the Pattern.<br />questions: how long did it take?  Is it exponential or linear?  <br /><br />3. Mierin sensed the DO through the thinness, but mistakenly thought she was sensing some odd way to draw more of the OP and channel better.<br /><br />4. The Bore is drilled, with the intent to get at this nifty OP source.  BIG MISTAKE.<br /><br />5. LTT and 100 companions fix the DO in prison by using the seals to put a patch on the Pattern.<br />thoughts: with all the ensuing channeling once all these men went mad, it's a miracle a new thinness didn't start somewhere else and increase exponentially.<br /><br />6. After the Breaking, although channeling persists, it's at a MUCH reduced level.  Perhaps, at these levels, channeling is easier on the Pattern, and the Pattern doesn't get any thinner.  OR, the Pattern can fix itself, and cycles between thinness and repair, but in a more even-keeled manner.<br /><br />6a. If the Pattern can in fact withstand certain amounts of channeling, then channeling needn't disappear overnight in order to seal away the DO.  But, after a while, given the cyclical nature of WoT, fewer and fewer channelers will be spun out by the Pattern, until channeling ceases.<br /><br />7. Now, back to my title.  Perhaps, balefire is like a miniBore.  When you balefire someone, you rip a small hole in the pattern and burn the thread.  That person's thread wasn't previously thin, but balefire is strong enough to make an acute, highly localized Bore.<br /><br />Balefire.  It's like Lasik surgery for the Pattern.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Live as if you were living for the second time and had acted as wrongly the first time as you are about to act now.  -VF</font><p></p>


created: 2005-02-03 13:03:17
subject: <b>AAAGH! Sorry Bobsledai!</b>
body:
I got confused between reading the comments and posting my answer. The theory is Bobsledai's, not The Fisher King's.  Sorry!!!!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Live as if you were living for the second time and had acted as wrongly the first time as you are about to act now.  -VF</font><p></p>


created: 2005-02-03 13:27:37
subject: <b>To Comet</b>
body:
No harm, no foul.<br /><br />I think the deterioration of the Pattern would be gradual.  We have no idea how long the AoL lasted before the Bore was drilled.  Probably a long time (hundreds, if not thousands of years) - I think Moggy mentions being over 200 before the Bore was sealed.  <br /><br />On top of that, people had to be channeling for a long time before they developed the knowledge and mastery that enabled the wonders of the AoL.  <br /><br /><br />I'm not sure I understand your thoughts on balefire.  Do you really rip a hole in the Pattern when you BF someone?  I thought that the male and True Power forms of Traveling were the only other mention of holes being ripped in the Pattern.<br /><br />If BF makes a tiny Bore, what comes through?  What's on the other side.<br /><br /><br />TFK


created: 2005-02-03 13:34:08
subject: <b>We likes it, yes precious.</b>
body:
But the main problem I have with this is how did channeling begin? And how did it end? Channelers didn't just stop channeling, they're all addicts. And how did they discover it? Surely Shai'tan must be able to wear away at his prison somehow, after all, he is omnipotent.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>War must be, while we defend our lives against a destroyer who would devour all; but I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend</i><br />~Faramir</font><p></p>


created: 2005-02-03 13:45:29
subject: <b>One problem . . .</b>
body:
As hard as we try, you really can't cite wotmania for sure eveidence that the pattern &quot;had become dangerously thin.&quot;  I believe you, but be careful where you hang your hat.


created: 2005-02-03 14:10:57
subject: <b>Traveling doesn't damage the Pattern</b>
body:
If I understand things correctly (dubious, yes, but anyway), when you Travel, you kind of enlarge the holes that already exist naturally between the threads.  It's like putting a brooch on a loosely woven sweater.  You aim the needle of the brooch in between the spaces of the sweater threads, thereby connect to separated points on the sweater, whilst avoiding damage to the actual sweater (if the sweater was tightly woven, damage would be inevitable unless the brooch's needle was exceptionally thin).  <br /><br />Balefire actually singes threads, creating holes.  I'm not entirely convinced that balefire = miniBore, infinitessimalBore, but I'm wondering.  <br /><br />Question is, does balefire destroy hole chunks of the Pattern, or merely a huge bit of surface embroidery, thus leaving the basic Pattern intact?  I think the former.<br /><br />What's on the other side?  Chaos, perhaps.  Not necessarily of the DO's making, but of the Creator's non-making (i.e., it's a void out there).<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Live as if you were living for the second time and had acted as wrongly the first time as you are about to act now.  -VF</font><p></p>


created: 2005-02-03 15:14:38
subject: <b>cyclic</b>
body:
i think that the reason for the thinness is because of previous ages. remember that the wheel is cyclic and so actions that occured in the age before the AOL could have weakened the walls of reality. the thinness that is reffered to in the books has not been there since creation, but has been thinned and then remade throughout every turn of the wheel.<br />although this means that the thinness must have been created for the first time back when the wheel was made, the reason for this i think we can only wildly speculate at- maybe a scientific race of humans came first, who saught to cross a space-time coninununnnnnninnum but ballsed it up and made a thinness? who knows?<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> Vaguely Remembered <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-02-03 15:14:40
subject: <b>On Comet...</b>
body:
I think balefiring would be more like cutting one thread in the sweater right before it reaches a seam.  It doesn't matter much if it's an isolated event, but do it too often or cut the thread to far away from the seam and you can do some real damage.  <br /><br />However, I don't think that the damage BF does to the Pattern is linked to the Bore.  The DF would find it easier to touch the world the more BF was used, assuming the Pattern held together.  But we are told that it was totally banned.  <br /><br />As for what is outside the Pattern, I believe it is a void.  That's where the DO lives.  I theorized somewhere in a long, lost blackboard post that the DO's prison is more about keeping him out of the Pattern than keeping him in some funky Superman-esque prison triangle.  <br /><br />That's my two cents.<br /><br /><br />TFK


created: 2005-02-03 15:15:38
subject: <b>Block access to the Source</b>
body:
So you say that the thinness is a result of people using the Source?  That it is like the grass in front of a pretty building, it gets worn down when people walk on it?  How do they get the grass to grow?  You put up a chain fence and block access to it.  So maybe the way to get the thinness to become a thickness is to block access to the Source.  <br /><br />Somehow, you create a barrier that blocks access for everyone, male and female, to the source.  The only people who could still channel would be those who channel the True Power and as time goes on and the DO gets farther away from the pattern, or the thinness, the ability to channel the TP goes away.<br /><br />Why block access to the Source?  Because even if you still/sever every channeler alive, there will be others that are born with the ability to channel.  So you have to block access.  Maybe they use super circles and do it, or use Choedan Kal, I am not sure.  This is what I thought of while reading this theory.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">For movie reviews and eternal life, check out http://www.richmondreviewers.com</font><p></p>


created: 2005-02-03 16:28:20
subject: <b>Hmmm....</b>
body:
I like this theory very much. I like it when people sit down and think about something so abstract.<br /><br />However , I don't know what to make of it and I'm reluctant to agree.<br /><br />I'm not sure I can actually agree with any statement which suggests that the Pattern is worn down to any degree by channeling. Channelers were essentially made by the Creator to wield his Power however they saw fit and I find it unlikely that he would grant them an ability which would damage the fabric of his own Creation - even unwillingly. <br /><br />The real question is whether channeling does damage the threads over time. I can't believe it does. When you channel anything , whether Fire , Earth , Water , Spirit or Air , the Pattern diverts it in its own way and leads it back to the True Source which drives the Wheel.<br /><br />We know that balefire actually damages the threads , and I'm also sure that Travelling doesn't. Travelling merely widens the spaces in the fabric. They fold back after the gateway closes. Whether this causes a type of erosion is debatable. When Moridin uses the TP to Travel he rips a hole in the Pattern - clearly destructive.<br /><br />I would put another hypothesis forward to you. The Dark One is in his prison and just like Shayol Ghul he is using all his strength to break free. After all his efforts he makes an area of the Pattern thin enough for him to be sensed. Lanfear senses his power because he is still trying to free himself - like using a spoon to burrow through tons of granite. But still more power than ever conceived. But she still frees him and uses the One Power - something the Dark One cannot wield and ultimate weakness of the prison , to free him.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">A One Power researcher<br />Defender of Lanfear<br />Grand Ninja-Nae'blis to be feared <br />Original Warder to Isa <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br />New Warder to Nossie <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />Toy to Seriana <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/winky.gif" border="0" /><br />Mystified by a Fan <br />Bonded Phelix - I was young, it happened so fast.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-02-03 17:40:31
subject: <b>This has occurred to me before</b>
body:
and it still makes a lot of sense.  I agree with this line of thought.  I don't know if the result of Rand resealing the Bore will end channeling, although I kinda doubt it, but I do think this was the original cause of the Thinness.  Good job.


created: 2005-02-03 18:36:42
subject: <b>Interesting...</b>
body:
Obviuosly, well-thought theory about such abstract thing. <br /><br />One problem that I see right now - if using more Power breaks the Dark One prison bit by bit then Forsaken would spend much of the time doing just that during War of Power. But we never actually saw that and never heard of it. Also, we know that Lanfear's experiment open a Bore, but didn't break the Prison. Why it was never attempted again by Forsaken? It's much complex, I guess, than just relation to the Power.


created: 2005-02-03 20:38:04
subject: <b>I always look forward to one of your theories....</b>
body:
because of the way you step back and look at things from a different perspective. You always seem to tackle some of the deeper cause/effect questions, too.<br /><br />After reading this, it made me wonder: Does the Pattern itself expand and shrink? Supposedly, every life contributes a thread to the Pattern, and with the advent of channeling, less sickness, and longer lives would eventually lead to a larger population. So, would this larger population, more threads basically, not create a larger expanding Pattern? Perhaps this &quot;stretching out&quot; effect pushed against the outer walls of the DO's prison, revealing the thinness? Maybe channeling was an indirect cause instead of the actual reason.<br /><br />(Just a random thought and not meant to detract from your explanation.) <br /><br />Thank you for an intriguing idea and theory. Very possible from my viewpoint, and I think you're on the right track. Thumbs up from me.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2005-02-03 22:24:09
subject: <b>replies</b>
body:
To Edgar:<br /><br />I was told that the quotes I have taken from wotmania are actually from the BWB, so that they are in fact trustworthy.<br /><br />To Light in the Night:<br /><br />I like your idea. That way I wouldn't have to worry about the infiniteness of the OP. And it's not just healing that's making people live longer. Channelers live far longer than everybody else, so that could contribute to it as well.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Bob L. Sedai (a.k.a. Luge) <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /><br />Fighting off the Taint - <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tinfoilhat.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" />Thanks given to Burr, the ever-helpful theory critic<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />And to Light in the Night, fellow theorist extraordinaire<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Voted Best Screenname 1 (one) years in a row.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-02-03 22:26:43
subject: <b>Another take on it</b>
body:
I've always had the idea playing in my head that the &quot;thinness&quot; in the pattern was from Elayne's attempt at unweaving.  Everyone keeps talking about how the one power is &quot;different&quot; or &quot;eager&quot; there...  maybe this could be the beginning of a new thinness for the next time the Age rolls around.<br /><br />My two cents worth<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Watching Firefly DVDs repeatedly...</font><p></p>


created: 2005-02-04 04:19:34
subject: <b>Don't think so</b>
body:
I see basically the same problems as sidious.<br /><br />The One Power belongs to the WoT cosmos. <br />It's a natural part of the world the Creator made; the &quot;life force&quot; which drives the Wheel of Time.<br />Therefore I seriously doubt that it harms the pattern in such fundamental way if it's normally used (besides, why only at one spot then?).<br /><br />In my view the pattern decides if humankind has to have the ability to channel in some Ages, like with other Talents.<br />It's probably given as a weapon against the DO, who has his own destructive power, the True Power.<br /><br />We even see that the unnatural TP can harm/change the pattern, e.g. when Moridin Travels.<br />Therefore I rather believe the thinness at one spot came from the efforts of the DO to weaken the pattern at this point from the other side.<br />Mierin's Bore probably only quickened this process.<br /><br />When the DO is safely imprisoned again (IMO done by Rand), there is not much need for wielding the OP anymore. <br />The knowledge of channeling will vanish in the coming Ages, but come again when the pattern &quot;realizes&quot; at the end of the 1st Age that the DO thins it again.


created: 2005-02-04 12:26:29
subject: <b>I agree with Etzel and Sidious</b>
body:
Though I like your theory, I tend to think the thiness comes from the constant power of the DO fighting to get out of his prison.  Why would the Creator intentionally create a weakness in his system?  He didn't, it is just that another, equally powerful, creature is stuck in there, and no prison is totally perfect.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">May you be successful  in all your projects.<br /><br />I am a pastafarion.  The Flying Spaghetti Monster created the universe, and no one in Kansas can prove me wrong.<br /><br />http://www.vengaza.org</font><p></p>


created: 2005-02-21 14:56:04
subject: <b>Cyclic in nature</b>
body:
While this theory is great to look at, there is one problem, and that is that you are looking at the Wheel in terms of having a beginning and an end. That's not RJ's way. The thinness, as I see it, is a result of a human (Rand) trying to replicate the work of the Creator (sealing the Bore).<br /><br />Here's how I see the sequence:<br />Lanfear 1 finds a thin part of the Pattern and makes the Bore.<br />LTT 1 sloppily seals it<br />The Wheel turns for a bit.<br />Rand 1 uses his Choeden Kal to fix the Bore, leaving a thin part on the Pattern.<br />Lanfear 2 finds a thin part of the Pattern and makes the Bore.<br /><br />The Wheel is cyclic, there are no beginnings nor endings to the turning of the Wheel, as the opening says. I think the Bore is made from the remains of the Bore. Rand's soul is always patching up the Bore, for all eternity. Lanfear is always exploiting his not-Creator-ness to make the Bore, for all eternity.


created: 2005-02-22 04:49:17
subject: <b>To nermid</b>
body:
No.<br /><br />IIRC, Rand said something along the same lines to Herid Fel. Fel strongly disagreed with Rand, saying that the Prison must have been whole at some point. And Fel expressed his doubts that Rand/the Dragon could fix it.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Bob L. Sedai (a.k.a. Luge) <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /><br />Fighting off the Taint - <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tinfoilhat.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" />Thanks given to Burr, the ever-helpful theory critic<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />And to Light in the Night, fellow theorist extraordinaire<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Voted Best Screenname 1 (one) years in a row.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-02-22 15:12:58
subject: <b>Reply: to Nermid</b>
body:
If I remember correctly, Rand rather thought that he could kill the Dark One. Fel said that this was impossible, because the Dark One had to be there for the next turning of the Wheel. Fel doesn't know about how the Dark One was released. As far as people in Rand's time know, Lanfear took a power drill to the DO's prison. They don't know about the thinness.<br /><br />Something has to form the thin part of the Pattern every turning of the Wheel to give Lanfear her opening, and I just think the simplest answer is that the thinness is where the Bore used to be, but is no more. That way, Lanfear will always be hitting that same spot in the Pattern, instead of randomly looking for weak spots.<br /><br />And if you don't mind me being incredibly smug <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />, the simplest answer is often the best.


created: 2005-03-01 09:50:28
subject: <b>Simplest answer?</b>
body:
nermid,<br /><br />In the quote from Fel that I referenced (sorry, too lazy right now to find it), he says something like 'the prison must become whole again, without some kind of patch, unless you believe the Creator made the prison with the patch in place.' (Paraphrase)<br /><br />So do you believe that the Creator made the prison with a patch/weakness to it from the start? Your view seems to suggest that there was no first day to Creation, and that concept helps you get around Fel's comment. But I do remember readind somewhere in EotW a comment mentioning a First Day.<br /><br />Sorry I can't provide the quotes to support my view, but I hope it helps to show clearly where we differ in opinion.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Bob L. Sedai (a.k.a. Luge) <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /><br />Fighting off the Taint - <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tinfoilhat.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" />Thanks given to Burr, the ever-helpful theory critic<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />And to Light in the Night, fellow theorist extraordinaire<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Voted Best Screenname 1 (one) years in a row.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-06-17 10:56:08
subject: <b>I dunno...</b>
body:
Point 1:<br />after the dark one is sealed away, even if the whole world forgot he existed, one entity would alwys be mightily aware of the fact. Who would that be?? The Dark One, of course. The dark one surely knows he is sealed in a prison, and as prisoners do, will always be endeavouring to become free...I always thought the thinness was caused by the DO wearign away at it for a couple of ages.<br /><br />Thus, he would have broken free eventually even if Lanfear had not bored the hole.So Lanfear becomes a minor detail. <br /><br />Due to the cyclical nature of the wheel, it follows that a person is not always required for the DO to break through and touch the world, as such a thing would be well on its way to ocurrance anyway.<br /><br />Point 2:<br />In terms of how differernt magics are introduced, and new magics signallign the end of old age/start of new: slowly people just &quot;appear&quot; with these talents eg Min and Perrin; these appearances are driven by the pattern. Following this train of thought, it would seem that power usuage will slowly disappear. <br /><br />IMO, a complete sealing of the bore (such that DO effectively ceases to exist in the pattern) will not occur at the end of this series and age, rather he will continue to be able to touch the world but his malignant force will be radically lessened.<br /><br />Taking these 2 points, i think that power usuage will eventually disappear form the 4th Age, but it will hvae nothing to do with the status of the dark ones prison.<br /><br />the pattern allowed access to the power in the first place, does it follow that the pattern would allow things to happen that could be destructive to it? <br />and the pattern introduces Mins ttalent and wolfbrother skills. If what the thoery states is true, where dioes the pattern get the energy from? It would make more sense to kill off channelling completely and _then_ introduce new stuff, once it got its breath back, so to speak<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Fortune rides like the sun on high <br />with the fox that makes the ravens fly. <br />Luck his soul, lightning his eye, <br />He snatches the moons from out of the sky.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-09-23 20:02:24
subject: <b>Folow me on this</b>
body:
Okay, what if the Pattern, the OP, and the DOs Prison are all the same thing?<br /><br />At the end of the First Age some of the Prison breaks into the world, and people discover chanelling.  As more, stronger, people use the OP, the Pattern and the Prison becomes thinner until they bore through.  After Lews Therin seals the bore with saidin, no more of the OP can enter the earth, so channelers as a whole cannot become stronger.  Now that the seals are weakening, stronger people can be born(Nynaeve), but because there are still some seals, most people still can't reach the same level as in AoL(Lanfear).  <br /><br />This would mean that for Rand to completely repair the Prison, he would need to take all the OP in the world and put it into the Prison, eliminating all channeling.  <br /><br />(My idea incorperates that since the seals were made of saidin, there was much less of the male half in the world, but since they've weakened, male chanelers are reappearing.)


created: 2006-11-21 19:02:59
subject: <b>HMMM</b>
body:
Thats a good point. Have you ever read Phillip Pullman's series with the uhhhh... Golden Compass!? That is just like this. Well, not just like this, but really close. Theres no pattern or channelling, but there are equivilents. No, really, this is a good idea thats gunna lead to a ton of pondering on my part.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Weaver of the Lace <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /> Guarder of the Blight <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/loial.gif" border="0" /> Swinger of the Great Axe <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/loial.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-02-03 07:31:36
subject: <b>Hoping not...</b>
body:
Even though I hope Mat doesn't really lose an eye...thus far your theory is the best sounding one on the case of this topic; so I voted as yes. I could see this happening, and it would be like Mat to do this.<br /><br />Now dream us some more theories.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Take this!   Member of NANOUS<br /><b>I am the proud owner of narien!!</b><br /><br /><b>Bonded to Sharlea Quensit!</b></font><p></p>


created: 2005-02-03 07:42:50
subject: <b>...um.</b>
body:
Two things I don't believe in this theory in general:<br /><br />1. Why Mat's eye? It doesn't make sense to leave somebody so important for the Last Battle with only one eye. There are plenty Dragonsworn who would be more than happy to give up both their eyes, so there's no need to take Mat's away.<br /><br />2. If the Finns want a price for Mat's wishes, than that price will be their's. They certainly won't give it away to somebody else. It's like saying &quot;I want Lucy to have a doll, and if you do that, I'll pay you fifty bucks. Oh, by the way, the doll is fifty bucks.&quot; In the end, the Finns won't get something in return, so they won't do that.


created: 2005-02-03 09:48:34
subject: <b>Why get the Finns involved?</b>
body:
Why would Mat need to go through the Finns? Why couldn't he just give his eye and have it put in Rand's head? I'm sure Nynaeve could deal with all relavent medical issues.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Bob L. Sedai (a.k.a. Luge) <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /><br />Fighting off the Taint - <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tinfoilhat.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" />Thanks given to Burr, the ever-helpful theory critic<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />And to Light in the Night, fellow theorist extraordinaire<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Voted Best Screenname 1 (one) years in a row.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-02-03 10:03:36
subject: <b>The Finn called Mat a fool</b>
body:
because he did not state a price but wise to unsure a safe return. So it is possible to bargain the price. And you should remember the human hides! They want something physical from the person who enters!<br /><br />Lord Stone


created: 2005-02-03 10:10:46
subject: <b>This was obviously written before RJ`s Q of the Week</b>
body:
The Finn cannot affect things in the World.<br /><br />Even so, IMO, the blind dragon and half the light of the world are metaphorical rather than actual.<br /><br />Also, I think it will be Thom who rescues Moiraine. Mat has too many other things to do.<br /><br />Thanks for your &quot;Dream&quot;, though.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2005-02-03 11:42:28
subject: <b>KOD</b>
body:
KOD's gonna be a dark book, in which Perrin will do his &quot;faltering&quot; and Mat will do his &quot;straying&quot;.  I don't think that either of them will be in a position to help Rand anytime soon.


created: 2005-02-03 11:45:00
subject: <b>interesting yo...</b>
body:
i agree with matt and rand's relationship, and your analysis of perrin.  and with your theory too, though i think nynaeve will be the one to heal it, not the fins.  ugh this wait for october is a-killin me...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;It's ridiculous to suggest that a team could go through a season in our league without losing. It's comical, just comical.&quot; Alex Ferguson 27th September 2002<br /><br />gooner...red and white army...<br /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gimli.gif" border="0" /> my soulmate<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/clown.gif" border="0" /> my nemesis</font><p></p>


created: 2005-02-03 13:41:41
subject: <b>I disagree</b>
body:
The Eelfinn cannot affect the physical world directly. And that doesn't seem like what Mat would do, I'd bet on one of his girls to do it for him.<br /><br />And I disagree with your Mat-Rand analysis as well. Perrin is the one with a strong sense of duty, who left his home behind because he felt Rand calling him. Mat has spent all his time trying to get away from Rand, but had a leash of iron links at the neck. He wants <i>away</i>, but can't get it. And where does it state that Rand and Mat were better friends than Perrin?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>War must be, while we defend our lives against a destroyer who would devour all; but I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend</i><br />~Faramir</font><p></p>


created: 2005-02-03 14:02:07
subject: <b>linked vision</b>
body:
The &quot;vision&quot; is of Matt gambling with blood streaming from his face, hat pulled down.  So IMHO, he is going to gamble for something (Rand and Rands eyesight are the obvious choice) using his eyes as a wager.  This could involve the finns or it could be that he is gambling that Nynaeve can manage a graft/transplant.<br /><br />


created: 2005-02-03 15:41:01
subject: <b>As a few already said... the Eelfinn have no power to affect what's outside their realms</b>
body:
Unless Rand is brought to Finnland with Mat, giving Rand his vision back would be something totally out of their reach. Asking for this could turn to disaster.<br /><br />Bringing Rand to Finnland via the ToG would take a huge leap of faith (why would the characters believe the Finns can even do that or agree to it when they didn't respect the covenant and didn't enter through the doorways?) and Mat already had his three wishes anyway.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="images/personalsmilies/30778.gif" />Wheel of Time Reference Library : Articles, maps, charts and misc.<img src="images/personalsmilies/30778.gif" /><br /><br /></font><p><a href="http://13depository.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">The Thirteenth Depository - a Wheel of Time Blog</a></p><p></p>


created: 2005-02-03 20:29:53
subject: <b>Your theory is interesting...</b>
body:
but I personally dont like the idea of Rand going blind. I like to think of it as a metaphor. So I am biased against your theory.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br /><br /> <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-02-04 00:16:57
subject: <b>Who knows?</b>
body:
IF Mat is going to give up an eye, and IF Rand is (what the ?) going to be blind, this is the theory I'd bank on.<br /><br />If not, well, it is still more likely than the Birgitte-is-DoTNM theories were at their point of writing - so, YES.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">i have severed all my former allegiances to The Forsaken Who Shall Not Be Named Any More Because She Was Dumb Enough To Get Captured (TFWSNBNAMBSWDETGC).<br /><br />sigh. now i must find a new forsaken to root for.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-02-04 01:46:59
subject: <b>ooooooo</b>
body:
wow thats scary! have u checked yourself for ESP?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perplexed.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smackhead.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /> LLT <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-02-04 04:58:47
subject: <b>Agree with jofraz &amp; DomA</b>
body:
And thus disagree with this theory.<br />You can't wish something for someone else, less than ever, if this person isn't in Finnland as well (certainly Rand won't go there).<br /><br />Also I don't believe that Mat will go to Finnland again (it's Thom's task to rescue Moiraine, maybe with a little help from Olver or Noal).


created: 2005-02-04 18:44:08
subject: <b>How can ge get back in?</b>
body:
From memory he can't enter that world twice - didn't he throw himself into snakeland and bounced back off in Tear. And ToG is about 1500 miles north-east from where he is now. Why would he head there?<br /><br />The best people have come up with so far is:<br /><br />'Something flickers' chapter in CoT. Mat kills a woman (Semirhage)to save Tuon.(saving the alliance with Rand)Symbolic<br /><br />The opening moves of the Shadow's Last Battle Plan would be to simultaneously attack the Light's Heavyweights the Black and White Tower. Mat in Illian rallies the forces of the Light (the HoV prophecy) but can only defend one place at a time. Symbolic saidar/saidin is the light of the world.<br /><br />


created: 2005-02-04 19:57:23
subject: <b>I am confused as to when it said that Rand would be blind</b>
body:
Or, I should say, hinted that he would be blind. I don't recall reading about that.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perplexed2.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>CW</i></font><p></p>


created: 2005-02-05 06:25:39
subject: <b>To PseudoDragon</b>
body:
In TSR, ch.53, Perrin has a Dream: <br />&quot;Mat vanished, and it was Rand. Perrin thought it was Rand. He wore rags and a rough cloak, and a bandage covered his eyes.&quot;<br /><br />Also Min has a beggar staff viewing of Rand when they first meet in EotW.<br /><br />Finally there is the Fisher in the game sha'rah: <br />&quot;The Fisher was always worked as a man, a bandage blinding his eyes and one hand pressed to his side, a few drops of blood dripping through his fingers.&quot; (PoD, prologue)<br />And Moridin notes:<br />&quot;Perhaps the Fisher did come from some dim remnant of a memory of Rand al'Thor, the shadow of a shadow.&quot;<br /><br />All this might indicate that Rand could, at least temporary, lose his eyesight.


created: 2005-02-05 13:46:25
subject: <b>Great Theory!</b>
body:
I love the idea that Mat will give up one eye for rand.  Never thought of that before.  I can see why you are limitied to mat going into the tower to make that deal, but i'm not sure i agree with you.  RJ said in a recent question of the week (www.tor.com/jordan I think) that the finn can't come into our world, so Rand would have to be there also, for that to happen, but we saw back in book 4 that when two people enter the doorways, they don't show up together.  So that, i think, leaves us with it happening in the real world (outside the tower) and we are left with the surgery being done with the one power.  anyway, that's just my thought.


created: 2005-02-07 15:28:27
subject: <b>oooh...!</b>
body:
I think I know why you dreamed it...our Dreamwalker Egwene put it in your head!<br /><br />Bear with me.  I only have the books on audio with me at the moment (I'm at work earning money to buy more oosquai, you see) so I am not sure which book it's in, or which chapter.  I am fairly sure it's in TGH, just before Egwene goes to the tower for the first time.  On the ship...?  In one of her dreams, she sees Mat placing his own eye on  balance scale.  Maybe it's Min I'm thinking of here.  I could swear it's Egwene, though.  <br /><br />Jeez, now I have to rifle through my CDs and find out where it is and exactly who sees it.  Either way, it's Mat for sure, he is definitely seen placing his OWN eye on a scale, and it's either in one of Egwene's dreams-that-mean-something or in Min's viewing.   <br /><br />Anyway.  I vote yes.  Good times.


created: 2005-02-07 19:43:48
subject: <b>Good Theory</b>
body:
I really didn't think too much on how this would come to pass, but if its true that the Power can't heal blindness, then maybe Mat will sacrifice his eye to the Finns for Rands sight.  Then again, Nyn proved that she could heal things that were previously thought to be impossible, so maybe Mat gives his eye to Nyn for Rand...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">All your base are belong to us.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-02-08 13:33:46
subject: <b>Couple Things</b>
body:
1) The 'you can only enter once' rule only applies to the redstone doorways, not to Finnland in general, so someone who had been through the doorways could still enter through the T of G.<br /><br />2) As other people have said, the Finn can only directly affect things that are in their own realm, so Rand would have to be in Finnland with Mat for any wish connected to Rand to work.<br /><br />3) While Moiraine explained to us what the Aelfinn gain by entertaining visitors, no one has ever told us what exactly the Eelfinn gain by granting wishes.  Therefore, it's impossible to say with any certainty whether the Eelfinn would or wouldn't want Mat's eye.  I mean, what exactly did they gain by hanging him from a tree branch?<br /><br />4) I feel a desire to quibble with the contention that Perrin 'goes his own way' and is less loyal than Mat.  Perrin has never gone anywhere that Rand hasn't wanted him to go (remember that it was Rand who sent Perrin to Ghealdan in the first place), and in LoC he actually left his happy, stable life as Lord of the Two Rivers when he got a premonition that Rand was going to need him.  Mat, on the other hand, spent much of the first four books trying the break free of Rand, and only stuck around because the Pattern kept dragging him back, kicking and screaming.


created: 2005-02-10 12:41:35
subject: <b>Hmmm...</b>
body:
&quot; it's impossible to say with any certainty whether the Eelfinn would or wouldn't want Mat's eye. I mean, what exactly did they gain by hanging him from a tree branch?&quot;<br /><br />Maybe they're just jerks.<br />


created: 2005-02-10 12:51:25
subject: <b>Quite brilliant</b>
body:
I love the theory, it links up with an idea that I've had for a time regarding mythological associations.  Rand as the Fisher King (spelt out quite explicitly in the book), Mat as Woden.  I am just trying to come up with one for Perrin!


created: 2005-03-06 00:06:29
subject: <b>Disagree/ agree</b>
body:
In all of the books it is always said how close of friends the three boys are.  In EoTW it is mentioned how the three of the would wonder off together adventuring in the sand hills, sit around dreaming of Bran al'Vere's map and many other things.  RJ has done his best to leave no doubt that they are best of freinds.  I agree that Mat will lose his eye some how saving Rand, probably during the last battle.


created: 2005-03-06 11:43:10
subject: <b>hehe</b>
body:
kind of agrre, to early to read it properly- <br /><br />but i got that ur a Mat lover, and u dont like Perrin now hes with Faile huh?! u peeps are so biased in ur theories lol! and that includes me. GO MOIRAINE! <br />look at my powers of deduction go<br /> ----------&gt;In THT Direction &lt;----------<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Surprising what you can dig out of books if you read long enough, isn't it?&quot; -- Rand Al'Thor<br /><br />&quot;I of course have zero evidence for this, but since when has that stopped any of us?&quot; -- David Wren-Hardin <br /><br />Oh, transatlantic Love!<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-06-21 11:01:57
subject: <b>wow</b>
body:
I just figured I might say one more thing. I do agree with you that Mat and Rand were always slightly closer than Perrin and Rand. And I disagree with everybody else that says that it's the other way around, that Perrin was always more loyal to Rand than Mat was. <br /><br />Yes, Mat complains a hell of a lot, but in the end, he still does what he has to do. Yes, he does want to be away, but who wouldn't? The difference with Mat and Perrin is that Mat always feels like he has to do something, that there isn't an option. Even with the small things, like giving Aludra money because he could not just let her go hungry, or blasting into the stone to free Egwene, Nynaeve, and Elayne because he could not just leave them to die, or even leading the Caihrienin and Tairens into battle agains the Aiel becaue he could not just let them be slaughtered. Mat agreed to go to Tear as part of the attack against Illian because he didn't think he had a choice. Mat led the Band of the Red Hand, and even fell into command of it, because he didn't think there was any way to leave at this point. Yes, he complains, and yes, he wants out, and yes, he does things because he feels like he has to (even when he really does have a choice) but the point is that he does it.<br /><br />Perrin doesn't. Although Rand said he gave Perrin permission to leave Tear, the Pattern clearly wanted otherwise. Read the passage when Perrin left to the Two Rivers again, and you'll see that Perrin actually had to fight to stay on his horse, because he could feel the Pattern tugging him back into the stone. He never complained about being ta'veren, never complained about the Pattern pulling him, not like Mat, and yet in the end he went against the Pattern, which Mat, for all his whining and complaining, didn't. When Perrin left the Two Rivers because Rand was tugging at him, keep in mind that Perrin flat-out refused to help Rand in the attack against Illian and fill in Mat's role, even though he knew how much Rand needed him. Still no complaining, not like Mat, but didn't Mat do what Rand needed him to do? Perrin didn't. Then there's the Prophet. Rand needs to deal with Masema quickly, and Perrin knows it, but he's still dallying around the Shaido camp trying to get Faile back. The fact that Perrin accepts what he is doesn't mean jack, because when it comes down to it, how much something is necessary to the Pattern, how important he knows something is, it still makes not a scrap of difference in his final decision. Did the importance of killing Sammael have any strength against Perrin's unwillingness to put the Two Rivers men in danger? Did the Pattern's protesting when he left Tear make a difference in him going, even if it was to save his family? <br /><br />But everybody seems to think that because Perrin accepts ta'veren and doesn't complain, that makes him better, when it doesn't. Because all boiled down, he'll let everybody burn to do something that is more important to him and only him. After all, wasn't he the one that said the whole Pattern could burn if it kept Faile safe?


created: 2006-01-18 21:55:37
subject: <b>KoD Update</b>
body:
Here is my summary of what KoD has taught us in regards to my prior theory:<br /><br />Mat WILL go back to 'finn-land' with Thom to save Moraine.  (Whoo hoo one clue in my favor!)<br /><br />The finn can only affect people in 'finn-land.'  Not from KoD, but Jordan has said it.  (a vote against, 1-1).<br /><br />Another will accompany Mat and Thom into 'finn-land' - it coule be Rand.  (eh.)  But why?<br /><br />Rand has lost his hand and Nynaeve hasn't shown any hope of healing it.  Doesn't mean it won't be (but helps build to the why).<br /><br />Rand may also lose his eyesight (and if Nynaeve is so obviously worried about destroying it, she must not be very confident about her ability to heal it).  As I believe I've said before, Rand is a pretty worthless channeler without his eyesight.  So there's the motivation to get it back, even if it does mean taking some time away from hiding and moving armies all over the Creator's creation to do it.  (Whoo haa 2-1 me!)<br /><br />I'm glad to see my theory hasn't been disproven yet, but it certainly hasn't been proven yet; I can't wait to see how it turns out!  (And if Jordan gets too tangled up in the 'pattern' of his story - he's perfectly welcome to use my resolution.)


created: 2006-02-24 13:05:54
subject: <b>Sorry, but I think otherwise</b>
body:
I am very sorry to say this, but my theory on &quot;Half the light of the world&quot; runs completely otherwise. <br /><br />Mat is married to Tuon, remember? And I think in achieving her support for Rand in Tarmon Gai'don he will have not only to accept this role but also the society of Seanchan. Meaning that the Seanchan will in their land further leash female channelers. Thus he will give up half the light of the world, one half of the Aes Sedai population in Seanchan held lands. <br /><br />That's at least my take on it.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Why did I follow him? I don't know.<br />Why do things happen as they do in dreams?<br />All I know is: when he beckoned I had to follow.<br />From this moment on we journeyed east.<br />Always to the east.</font><p></p>


created: 2007-02-15 07:43:03
subject: <b>An eye for an (Aes Sed)ai</b>
body:
We know from one of Min's viewings that Rand can only succeed at Tarmon Gaidon with Moiraine's help. It seems fair to say then that freeing Moiraine from the Finns is vital if the world is to be saved. If Mat gives up his eye in the Tower of Ghenjei in order to free Moiraine then he's effectively giving up half the light of the world in order to save the world.<br /><br />(Of course, that might be taking things too literally. Now that he's in love with Tuon, couldn't she be half the light of his world? What's more, with Tuon dead, wouldn't Mat be the only remaining member of the Seanchan ruling family? If so this would put him in command of one of the world's most powerful armies.)


created: 2005-02-04 13:23:08
subject: <b>I disagree.</b>
body:
Interesting theory, but there are a few things that don't seem right.<br /><br />For one, your assumption that channelers in the flesh cannot use the properties of <i>Tel'aran'rhiod</i>. Trying to destroy something in the World of Dreams is harder than creating something - even balefire tried to repair itself. So i don't think this is conclusive. Also, Slayer seems to go into the dreamworld in the flesh, yet I haven't noticed any form of handicap from him.<br /><br />For another, entering the dreamworld in the flesh does not seem to be a handicap, Moghedien practically leaps out of her skin when she realises it.<br /><br />Then, there is Silvie's scene - I always figured she was referring to Rand, not Be'lal. Remember, <i>Callandor</i> was always in his dreams.<br /><br />Finally, Rahvin did influence people. Remember, Basel Gill had a dream about &quot;Lord Gaebril&quot;, and when he tracked it down, he stumbled upon someone else who claimed to have dreamed the exact same dream.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>War must be, while we defend our lives against a destroyer who would devour all; but I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend</i><br />~Faramir</font><p></p>


created: 2005-02-04 13:29:54
subject: <b>I like it.</b>
body:
I think there could be truth to this.  We won't know for sure without more information, but I wouldn't be surprised if this was the case.


created: 2005-02-04 13:55:47
subject: <b>Reply to Fanatic-Templar</b>
body:
<font size="-1"><b>For one, your assumption that channelers in the flesh cannot use the properties of Tel'aran'rhiod. Trying to destroy something in the World of Dreams is harder than creating something - even balefire tried to repair itself. So i don't think this is conclusive. Also, Slayer seems to go into the dreamworld in the flesh, yet I haven't noticed any form of handicap from him.</b></font><br /><br />I don't think we have any real indication that destroying in T'A'R is any more difficult than destroying.  The Dreamworld is all about status quo.  Everything created returns to nothingness.  That is why the Wise Ones are so concerned about the increasing number of nightmares in T'A'R -- in some ways, they are the antithesis of balefire in that balefire destroys destructively and nightmares have been created destructively.<br /><br />As for Slayer, I tried to leave him out of my theory.  Yes, he enters T'A'R in the flesh, but he says that &quot;He could not use T'A'R the way the Forsaken could&quot; (WH, Into Thin Air).  We don't know what kind of abilities he has in the Dreamworld.<br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>For another, entering the dreamworld in the flesh does not seem to be a handicap, Moghedien practically leaps out of her skin when she realises it.</b></font><br /><br />Because Moghedien is a coward.  She is thinking about their direct strengths, in relation to hers -- even weaker while Dreaming than in the flesh.  But the Wise Ones seem to think that the Forsaken are their equals in power in T'A'R.  After all, the Forsaken do avoid the WOs.<br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Then, there is Silvie's scene - I always figured she was referring to Rand, not Be'lal. Remember, Callandor was always in his dreams.</b></font><br /><br />Nope.  Rand is not a Dreamer, has no learing ter'angreal, has no way to get to Callandor.  Be'lal grabs him and puts him into a weaving of Tel'aran'rhiod of his own making.  Besides, the quote is, &quot;asleep or awake, he...&quot; When does Rand go look at Callandor awake?<br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Finally, Rahvin did influence people. Remember, Basel Gill had a dream about &quot;Lord Gaebril&quot;, and when he tracked it down, he stumbled upon someone else who claimed to have dreamed the exact same dream.</b></font><br /><br />Actually, Gill described it as merely a &quot;bad dream.&quot;  This was in the same context of him talking of spreading rumors about Gaebril by saying he dreamed up the anti-Elayne plot.  It is interesting that he comes up with the idea so quickly, however.  Gaebril might have been in the dream.<br /><br />If he was, this is just another link for my theory.  Rahvin seems to be one of the Forsaken that use T'A'R often in TDR and FOH.  Going back to Morgase's POV in FOH, she says that she did NOT gauge the mood of the city, she was too preocupied.  So we didn't really have any reliable POVs of the streets of Caemlyn during that time period.  Gill's dream could be indication that Rahvin is also extruding the &quot;Forsaken effect.&quot;<br /><br />Perhaps Rahvin does not extensively use T'A'R.  Maybe just an occasional nocturnal sojourn or two is enough to generate a smaller, less-defined &quot;Forsaken effect.&quot;


created: 2005-02-04 15:18:41
subject: <b>Great theory ... but I disagree mostly</b>
body:
<br />A very well researched theory indeed but I disagree on some major points.<br /><br />Your analogy that male dreamwalkers are like snakes with legs is apt and fitting. Why? Because the Forsaken are snakes with legs &#8230; they are male channelers of enormous strength from the Age of Legends. At least as rare as pigs with wings.<br /><br />The Aiel like the Aes Sedai have made their judgments on an Age defined by female dominance and it comes as no surprise that men lack Talents even beyond the realm of the Power. With all of their bravado , what do you think they think of Perrin and his abilities?<br /><br />I personally believe that TAR was part of the standard syllabus for becoming Aes Sedai in the Age of Legends because its uses could be infinite. I believe that any person who can channel can learn to master the Dreamworld. It is like Healing , anyone can do it.<br /><br />The difference is Talent of course. While Moghedien and Lanfear show the upper limits of this Talent , I&#8217;m pretty sure that Egwene and the Wise Ones show it too. However , considering Wise Ones are so plentiful and considering they are all masters of TAR , I find it extremely unlikely that so many women have the Talent. So what is the Talent? I don&#8217;t believe it is the ability to enter without a ter&#8217;angreal but rather your ability to create weavings in TAR. Moghedien&#8217;s trap weaving for Egwene was exceedingly complex and I&#8217;m sure unsurpassable. Ishamael&#8217;s weaves for the darkfriends and for the ta&#8217;veren are also very intricate. Birgitte has warned Nynaeve against any of the Forsaken and this implies that all of them are dangerous in TAR even if they lacked the Talent. She told Nynaeve she would be worse than dead if Asmo discovered her , and we have never heard him say anything about the topic to Rand. <br /><br />Shielding your dreams is difficult because if you shield them , you cannot enter TAR. So I believe that none of the FS shield their dreams but definitely have some sort of defensive ward working somewhere.<br /><br />In short , my main objection to your theory is my believe that all of the Forsaken are dreamwalkers. They are very strong and very educated and this makes them more than competent to enter TAR in that little trance trick Egwene does in her horse saddle. Or better , while moving around and acting normally they are in TAR too. I&#8217;ve always moved my thoughts along Moiraine&#8217;s comment. Therefore if you are strong in Spirit you can dreamwalk (a deduction I made). I cannot imagine any of the FS being weak in Spirit.<br /><br />As you mentioned in the beginning of your theory , they are the most interesting characters. I believe they have immense powers of mind because to maintain those thrones does require permanent concentration I believe. They have mastered this to a subconscious skill. Look how the Aes Sedai dresses change when they don&#8217;t concentrate. It never happens with the Forsaken. Even when Moghedien was shot through the chest with an arrow her appearance remained the same and she managed to remove herself from the dream.<br /><br />I maintain that all of them are Dreamwalkers but none are Dreamers as far as we can see. Moghedien is the greatest of the Dreamwalkers followed by Lanfear and then possibly Be&#8217;lal and Ishamael. All of them are competent and at least as impressive as the Wise Ones in that domain.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">A One Power researcher<br />Defender of Lanfear<br />Grand Ninja-Nae'blis to be feared <br />Original Warder to Isa <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br />New Warder to Nossie <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />Toy to Seriana <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/winky.gif" border="0" /><br />Mystified by a Fan <br />Bonded Phelix - I was young, it happened so fast.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-02-04 15:52:18
subject: <b>I still don't buy the flesh being inferior.</b>
body:
Moghedien may be a coward, but she's never panicked this much. This is on a level with realising that balefire is being used devastatingly. I don't recall this much fear from Shaidar Haran himmself!<br /><br />As for destruction and creation... well, you're point about nightmares is interesting. Creations can be left walking even after the one who dreamed it awakes. Yet balefire repairs itself. Creation in the World of Dreams seems to be much easier than destruction.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>War must be, while we defend our lives against a destroyer who would devour all; but I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend</i><br />~Faramir</font><p></p>


created: 2005-02-04 15:52:40
subject: <b>One thing you seem to forget...</b>
body:
You said that the &quot;Jumping&quot; in TAR can't be done in the flesh. However, when Egwene went to Salidar, she did just that. Not only did she create an imaginary Bela, but she also &quot;Healed&quot; her bruises from the switching and made Bela do some very fast running.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">http://www.orkut.com/Profile.aspx?uid=4841668765074332965<br /><br />&quot;It's like God gave you the tools to build a house, and the blueprint is in you. Just remember to use rubber gloves.&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2005-02-04 16:08:30
subject: <b>Thanks for the compliments, sidious and fred</b>
body:
Sidious:<br /><font size="-1"><b>I personally believe that TAR was part of the standard syllabus for becoming Aes Sedai in the Age of Legends because its uses could be infinite. I believe that any person who can channel can learn to master the Dreamworld. It is like Healing , anyone can do it.</b></font><br /><br />Yes, I agree.  From the Forsaken's mastery of TAR, we know that it was a common practice in the AOL to use the Dreamworld.  Where we differ is that I say you have to channel to enter TAR and you say that it is a gift to be learned, like Healing.<br /><br />My question is, how can you &quot;learn&quot; to enter TAR without chanelling?  For Egwene, and probably the Wise Ones, it was an innate ability that just happened.  Rather like Elaida's Foretelling, Dreaming is something that cannot be suppressed, an untrained Dreamer will constantly be recieving prophetic dreams, enter TAR unconsciously, etc.<br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>However , considering Wise Ones are so plentiful and considering they are all masters of TAR , I find it extremely unlikely that so many women have the Talent.</b></font><br /><br />Yes, there are many Wise Ones.  But how many Dreamwalkers are there?  Four.  Then one died.  So now we have Bair, Amys, and Melaine.  These are the ONLY Wise One dreamwalkers among the Aiel.  It is not such a common gift.  Think of how huge the Aiel people are.  How many septs are in a clan?  The numbers are staggering, when you think about it.  And just four had the ability at the beginning of TDR.  No, not such a common gift at all.<br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>In short , my main objection to your theory is my believe that all of the Forsaken are dreamwalkers. They are very strong and very educated and this makes them more than competent to enter TAR in that little trance trick Egwene does in her horse saddle. Or better , while moving around and acting normally they are in TAR too. I&#8217;ve always moved my thoughts along Moiraine&#8217;s comment. Therefore if you are strong in Spirit you can dreamwalk (a deduction I made). I cannot imagine any of the FS being weak in Spirit.</b></font><br /><br />Hmm, I guess this is where we see things differently.  I see that Dreaming is a Talent on the level of Foretelling and seeing ta'veren.  You cannot LEARN to Foretell.  It's something you are born with, that comes out whether you want it to or not.  I don't think someone can LEARN to enter TAR.  But I believe that the AS in the AOL knew a weave that let them enter into TAR while asleep.  The weave would have to be of Spirit, since that is all a person can channel while asleep.<br /><br />I think the main difference between the weave-Dreamwalking and the Dreamwalking that Egwene and the WOs use is the prophetic dreams they recieve.  While the Forsaken can enter and manipulate not only TAR but other people's dreams, they recieve no such prophetic dreams.<br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>I maintain that all of them are Dreamwalkers but none are Dreamers as far as we can see. Moghedien is the greatest of the Dreamwalkers followed by Lanfear and then possibly Be&#8217;lal and Ishamael. All of them are competent and at least as impressive as the Wise Ones in that domain.</b></font><br /><br />My theory went through a few stages of development.  First I was going to prove that Ishamael and Be'lal were male Dreamwalkers.  But then I realized that Asmo in TSR had penetrated Lanfear's weave.  Checking around, I found many examples of Forsaken using TAR above and beyond what they could in the flesh.  That is when the thought that they can channel themselves into TAR evolved.<br /><br />I still believe that Ishamael is a male Dreamwalker.  The prophetic visions he gives to the DFs in the DF Social at the beginning of TGH is the clincher, in my mind.<br /><br />Actually, our viewpoints aren't that different, sidious.  But I still don't think that Dreamwalking can be &quot;learned&quot; without channelling.


created: 2005-02-04 16:15:26
subject: <b>More replies</b>
body:
After re-reading the passage where Egwene travels to Salidar in TAR in the flesh, I am prepared to concede that a knowledgeable Dreamwalker can manipulate TAR as easily in the flesh as asleep.  It does seem that Rand is just ignorant.<br /><br />But the fact remains, that the Forsaken are NOT in TAR in the flesh.  How would they be able to manipulate people's dreams?  Can you open a gateway to the in-between place where the star-like dreams are?  Can you ride Bela to a seperate weaving of TAR where Lanfear has pulled somebody out of their dream to?  IMO, the answer is no.  We see Be'lal, Asmo, and Rahvin use TAR without gateways, manipulating others dreams and penetrating other people's weavings of TAR (unless there is an actual place with endless ramps and bridges, Rahvin and Be'lal were penetrating Ishy's weaving of TAR).  I don't think any of that is possible in the flesh.


created: 2005-02-04 17:34:45
subject: <b>Sorry to disagree</b>
body:
but the premise of your entire argumnent is that the most of the Forsaken  need to channel in order to enter T'A'R.  The evidence of this need is lacking.  The quote from Demandred is the only piece of evidence that distinguishes the spark so to speak from those who can learn.  It is also the evidence that contridicts your premise.  If channeling is involved in artificial entry into T'A'R why would their need to be training ter'angreal?  Wouldn't they just teach the final weave instead of going through this long process?  Training implies teaching someone how to do it the normal way and doing it the normal way would lead me to believe they could do other dreamwalker activities.<br /><br />Also while I know T'A'R can be weird none of the forsaken ever seem to be channeling there and forgive me for not remembering for sure but when Elayne was using the ter'angreal wasn't she seen to be still channeling into the ter'angreal the whole time.  If she was then wouldn't that mean that the Forsaken weave would have to be maintained similarly.<br /><br />As for the rarity of Dreamwalkers I'd like to point out that the ones we know besides the Forsaken are all Dreamers.  All four of them. Perhaps it was Egwenes Dreaming Talent that they sensed not her  Dreamwalking ability.  Which maybe why they have been unable to train the other WO's.  It is possible to be a Dreamwalker without being a Dreamer but not to be a Dreamer without being a dreamwalker.  If they can only sense Dreaming of course they might forget that any channeler can be trained.  And there is also the possibility that they can't be trained without the ter'angreal which would help with its loss to memory.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where did these Skimmers come from?  I mean if they didn't want to read the book they could have just Traveled to another author.  Why risk arriving at the wrong destination?  Why risk falling into darkness?</font><p></p>


created: 2005-02-04 18:13:04
subject: <b>A point , Agingcomputer</b>
body:
I don't mean to patronise you , but you do realise that Dreaming and Dreamwalking are different?<br /><br />Your replies to me seem to use the two mutually. Dreaming is Foretelling through TAR whereas Dreamwalking is the ability to enter and manipulate TAR.<br /><br /><b>Yes, I agree. From the Forsaken's mastery of TAR, we know that it was a common practice in the AOL to use the Dreamworld. Where we differ is that I say you have to channel to enter TAR and you say that it is a gift to be learned, like Healing.</b><br /><br />It is not a gift. It is just one of the things which all channelers can do. And some non-channelers. There is no evidence that Egwene has any ability in TAR. She is definitely a Dreamer because she can Foretell using dreams but she was like all Wise One apprentices and was taught to master TAR. Nynaeve and Elayne could easily have substituted her.<br /><br /><b>My question is, how can you &quot;learn&quot; to enter TAR without chanelling? For Egwene, and probably the Wise Ones, it was an innate ability that just happened. Rather like Elaida's Foretelling, Dreaming is something that cannot be suppressed, an untrained Dreamer will constantly be recieving prophetic dreams, enter TAR unconsciously, etc.</b><br /><br />I don't agree. Egwene never entered TAR before she learnt to wield the Power. The one led to the other. But are we talking about Dreaming or Dreamwalking? Egwene is a Dreamer and her visions cannot be suppressed just like Elaida's Talent. Dreamwalking is totally different. You must learn it.<br /><br /><b>Yes, there are many Wise Ones. But how many Dreamwalkers are there? Four. Then one died. So now we have Bair, Amys, and Melaine. These are the ONLY Wise One dreamwalkers among the Aiel. It is not such a common gift. Think of how huge the Aiel people are. How many septs are in a clan? The numbers are staggering, when you think about it. And just four had the ability at the beginning of TDR. No, not such a common gift at all.</b><br /><br />I totally disagree with this statement unless you can find me a quote. All Wise Ones are dreamwalkers , channelers or both. You must be one of them. The four you named are Dreamers because they have had prophecies about Rand and other events. They can Foretell through TAR. Channeling the Power or being a dreamwalker is an absolute requisite for being a Wise One. You cannot be one if you cannot do at least one. <br /><br /><b>Hmm, I guess this is where we see things differently. I see that Dreaming is a Talent on the level of Foretelling and seeing ta'veren. You cannot LEARN to Foretell. It's something you are born with, that comes out whether you want it to or not. I don't think someone can LEARN to enter TAR. But I believe that the AS in the AOL knew a weave that let them enter into TAR while asleep. The weave would have to be of Spirit, since that is all a person can channel while asleep.</b><br /><br />Dreaming is indeed a very rare Talent , but not Dreamwalking. We must be very sure about terminology here. The weave idea is original but there is no proof for it whatsoever. I don't see why Demandred cannot go to sleep and enter TAR. There's no proof against it for any of the Forsaken.<br /><br /><b>Actually, our viewpoints aren't that different, sidious. But I still don't think that Dreamwalking can be &quot;learned&quot; without channelling. </b><br /><br />I'm pretty sure there are several Wise Ones who cannot channel who can enter TAR. There are several quotes which show that channeling the Power is not necessary to have the ability. Otherwise a male dreamwalker would also be a male channeler - and the wise ones would never acquiesce to that.<br /><br />You don't need to be a channeler to dreamwalk , but if you can channel then you always dreamwalk. You need training. Dreaming is totally different - it is a very rare uncontrollable Talent which is Foretelling through TAR.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">A One Power researcher<br />Defender of Lanfear<br />Grand Ninja-Nae'blis to be feared <br />Original Warder to Isa <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br />New Warder to Nossie <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />Toy to Seriana <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/winky.gif" border="0" /><br />Mystified by a Fan <br />Bonded Phelix - I was young, it happened so fast.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-02-04 19:03:43
subject: <b>More replies</b>
body:
Onarishma:<br /><font size="-1"><b>but the premise of your entire argumnent is that the most of the Forsaken need to channel in order to enter T'A'R. The evidence of this need is lacking. The quote from Demandred is the only piece of evidence that distinguishes the spark so to speak from those who can learn. It is also the evidence that contridicts your premise. If channeling is involved in artificial entry into T'A'R why would their need to be training ter'angreal? Wouldn't they just teach the final weave instead of going through this long process? Training implies teaching someone how to do it the normal way and doing it the normal way would lead me to believe they could do other dreamwalker activities.</b></font><br /><br />Just as novices in the WT are trained, slowly, to Heal, make fireballs, etc., apprentice AS in the AOL would be taught to utilize the World of Dreams.  The weave of Spirit would probably be a very complicated one, much too much for a beginning channeller.  But the World of Dreams is not something learned in an instant, either.  Verin does not even begin to understand it, although she has had the dream ring <i>ter'angreal</i> in her possession for who knows how long.  Even with teachers, it took Egwene a long time to figure things out.  So naturally, a beginning dreamwalker would be brought along slowly, from the beginning of the training, moving up in degrees of <i>ter'angreal</i> as the ability warranted.  Perhaps they would start with a dream ring such as Egwene's, which requires no channeling at all, then move up to the ones that require continuous channeling of Spirit, and then up to the full-fledged weave.<br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Also while I know T'A'R can be weird none of the forsaken ever seem to be channeling there and forgive me for not remembering for sure but when Elayne was using the ter'angreal wasn't she seen to be still channeling into the ter'angreal the whole time. If she was then wouldn't that mean that the Forsaken weave would have to be maintained similarly.</b></font><br /><br />Not necessarily.  It could be something like the weave for Compulsion, which settles into the person.  I don't pretend to know the intricate details of the weave.  Just that it is possible, even likely.<br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>As for the rarity of Dreamwalkers I'd like to point out that the ones we know besides the Forsaken are all Dreamers. All four of them. Perhaps it was Egwenes Dreaming Talent that they sensed not her Dreamwalking ability. Which maybe why they have been unable to train the other WO's. It is possible to be a Dreamwalker without being a Dreamer but not to be a Dreamer without being a dreamwalker.</b></font><br /><br />Wrong.  See my reply to sidious below.<br /><br />sidious:<br /><font size="-1"><b>It is not a gift. It is just one of the things which all channelers can do. And some non-channelers. There is no evidence that Egwene has any ability in TAR. She is definitely a Dreamer because she can Foretell using dreams but she was like all Wise One apprentices and was taught to master TAR. Nynaeve and Elayne could easily have substituted her.</b></font><br /><br />&quot;Some Dreamers can dreamwalk, having the ability to enter <i>Tel'aran'rhiod</i>, as well as other people's dreams...&quot; (BWB, p214)<br /><br />This shows the distinction between Dreaming and dreamwalkers.  Every dreamwalker can Dream.  But not all Dreamers are dreamwalkers.  Pretty clear, if you ask me.  Nynaeve and Elayne could NOT be dreamwalkers, because they are not Dreamers.<br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>I totally disagree with this statement unless you can find me a quote. All Wise Ones are dreamwalkers , channelers or both. You must be one of them. The four you named are Dreamers because they have had prophecies about Rand and other events. They can Foretell through TAR. Channeling the Power or being a dreamwalker is an absolute requisite for being a Wise One. You cannot be one if you cannot do at least one. </b></font><br /><br />Wrong again.<br /><br />&quot;Of all the Wise Ones, we four alone can dreamwalk.&quot; (TSR, p388 )<br /><br />I think the Wise Ones would know the distinction between Dreaming and dreamwalking.<br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Dreaming is indeed a very rare Talent , but not Dreamwalking. We must be very sure about terminology here. The weave idea is original but there is no proof for it whatsoever. I don't see why Demandred cannot go to sleep and enter TAR. There's no proof against it for any of the Forsaken.</b></font><br /><br />As I said before, dreamwalking is mutually exclusive on being able to Dream.  Unless all the Forsaken are Dreamers, recieving prophetic messages from the Shadow, then they have some other way to enter the Unseen World.


created: 2005-02-04 19:50:16
subject: <b>Well,</b>
body:
I'm still convinced anything that can be done in <i>Tel'aran'rhiod</i> can be done better in the flesh than in Dreamwalking. But I think your theory is trying to say that the Forsaken know a weave to go to the dreamfield? If that is the case, I think it is possible.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>War must be, while we defend our lives against a destroyer who would devour all; but I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend</i><br />~Faramir</font><p></p>


created: 2005-02-04 20:23:54
subject: <b>The BWB</b>
body:
while full of fun information is supposed to be a gathering of scraps of information.  So for Aes Sedai who believe all special abilities are related to the Power of course most of the information this &quot;author&quot; collects is going to go along with that notion.  It is supposed to be reasonbly accurate but it clearly isn't omniscnent or we would know about all the real names of the Forsaken as well as the Isle of Madmen.  The woman is not infallible and from the evidence of the concrete information in the books what I said has more proof.<br /><br />&quot;The weave of Spirit would probably be a very complicated one, much too much for a beginning channeller.&quot;<br /><br />Which is why like other complicated weaves it would be learned when a channeler was capable of learning it.  And training in T'A'R can wait until you have the weave down.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where did these Skimmers come from?  I mean if they didn't want to read the book they could have just Traveled to another author.  Why risk arriving at the wrong destination?  Why risk falling into darkness?</font><p></p>


created: 2005-02-04 21:52:27
subject: <b>Reply</b>
body:
<font size="-1"><b>The BWB...while full of fun information is supposed to be a gathering of scraps of information. So for Aes Sedai who believe all special abilities are related to the Power of course most of the information this &quot;author&quot; collects is going to go along with that notion. It is supposed to be reasonbly accurate but it clearly isn't omniscnent or we would know about all the real names of the Forsaken as well as the Isle of Madmen. The woman is not infallible and from the evidence of the concrete information in the books what I said has more proof.</b></font><br /><br />Actually, the BWB is quite clear that dreamwalking and Dreaming have nothing to do with channeling.  Of course the author isn't infalliable, but that quote is the only place where it talks about the exclusivity of Dreaming and dreamwalking.  What you SAID is more proof?  There is nothing in the books that SAYS that dreamwalking is more common than Dreaming, or that Dreamers are a special form of dreamwalkers.  Until you find me a quote proving your point, what you SAY isn't going to convince anyone.<br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Which is why like other complicated weaves it would be learned when a channeler was capable of learning it. And training in T'A'R can wait until you have the weave down.</b></font><br /><br />You've got to start somewhere.  Why not start beginning channelers in TAR early?  As with your above statement, there is no PROOF that dreamwalking can be learned.  Quite the opposite.  Elayne and Nyn have never entered into TAR without a dream ter'angreal, and they have probably had the most experience with the things.<br /><br />When you say &quot;proof,&quot; I'd appreciate some quotes.


created: 2005-02-06 20:09:38
subject: <b>Your BWB quote</b>
body:
&quot;Some Dreamers can dreamwalk, having the ability to enter Tel'aran'rhiod, as well as other people's dreams...&quot; (BWB, p214)<br /><br />Some Dreamers can dreamwalk. That means that the ability to Dream (receive prophetic dreams) exists without the ability to Dreamwalk (travel between the dreams of others). You used it to say the oposite.<br /><br /><b>This shows the distinction between Dreaming and dreamwalkers. Every dreamwalker can Dream. But not all Dreamers are dreamwalkers. Pretty clear, if you ask me. Nynaeve and Elayne could NOT be dreamwalkers, because they are not Dreamers.</b><br /><br />It never says that every Dreamwalker can Dream, I don't know where you are getting that from. All it says is that some Dreamers can Dreamwalk. So it is entirely possible that there are people who Dreamwalk without receiving prophetic Dreams. <br /><br />Moving on to the theory in general:<br /><br />The theory sounds relatively firm, but also sounds overly complicated. Spirit is the only power that can be woven in sleep, yet every time we've seen it used, the usage has been either unconcious or done within T'A'R. Rand and the  Forsaken project their dreams unconciously, Elayne, Egwene, and Nyn all try to use the OP in T'A'R, and realize that Spirit is the only one that works properly while they are asleep.<br /><br />How could a person weave a complex (which you say the weave must be) weave while they are asleep, and weave it on themself? We've been told that it is very difficult to Heal oneself because of the diffilculty of seeing ones own body to weave on, weaves that affect the spirit of a person (eg compulsion) are woven on the head of person, but it is impossible to see weaves in mirrors, so how could as person weave this complex thing on their own head, while sleeping?<br /><br />Or do you suggest they weave it, walk into it, then go to sleep? Some other mechanism?<br /><br />Demandred recognizes Elayne's ter'angreal as a teaching device. The simplest logic would say that people in the AoL use ter'angreal to enter T'A'R, unless they are Talented, as Dreamers, and thus begin to enter T'A'R after they begin channeling. The fact that there are multiple, personalized, T'A'R ter'angreal suggests this as well. <br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Warder to Be'lal's Girl<br />Wotmania Lottery<br /><br /><br /><br />&quot;Meh. A good relationship is like fireworks: loud, explosive, and liable to maim you if you hold on too long.&quot; ~ Sven, Questionable Content<br /><br />Bonded by Sidious. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-02-07 00:12:26
subject: <b>To Agingcomputer</b>
body:
TFOH (What can be learned in Dreams) ... &quot;Before Egwene there had not been a woman in the Tower who could enter the World of dreams unaided since Corianin Nedeal , over four hundred years ago ...&quot;<br /><br />Nynaeve believes that only Egwene possesses the Talent to enter TAR unaided. Everyone else must use a ter'angreal or even this weave you suggest. Then of course , Melaine explains Nynaeve's faults to her ...<br /><br />TFOH (Meetings) ... &quot;We tamed her excessive exuberance , and she now learns swiftly. If you wish to wander the dream ... come to us. We will tame your zeal , as well , and teach you.&quot;<br /><br />Sound proof that Nynaeve could have substituted Egwene as their apprentice. Proof that any woman who can channel can be taught to Dreamwalk. They cannot make her prophecise though , and thus she can never be a Dreamer.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">A One Power researcher<br />Defender of Lanfear<br />Grand Ninja-Nae'blis to be feared <br />Original Warder to Isa <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br />New Warder to Nossie <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />Toy to Seriana <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/winky.gif" border="0" /><br />Mystified by a Fan <br />Bonded Phelix - I was young, it happened so fast.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-02-07 01:23:23
subject: <b>Sidious...</b>
body:
Melaine probably doesn't know that Nynaeve is using a training ter'angreal, since the Aiel don't use many ter'angreal (from what we've seen). For all she knows, Nynaeve can dreamwalk too.<br /><br />I agree with you that any channeler could learn to use T'A'R, but I will reserve judgement as to whether they innately can or not until there is further proof. But your quote is rather vague, and could easily fit the theme that no one knows everything they think they know.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Warder to Be'lal's Girl<br />Wotmania Lottery<br /><br /><br /><br />&quot;Meh. A good relationship is like fireworks: loud, explosive, and liable to maim you if you hold on too long.&quot; ~ Sven, Questionable Content<br /><br />Bonded by Sidious. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-02-07 21:36:55
subject: <b>More replies</b>
body:
Phelix:<br /><font size="-1"><b>It never says that every Dreamwalker can Dream, I don't know where you are getting that from. All it says is that some Dreamers can Dreamwalk. So it is entirely possible that there are people who Dreamwalk without receiving prophetic Dreams. </b></font><br /><br />It's all a matter of interpretation.  Saying &quot;Some Dreamers can Dreamwalk&quot; could mean two things:  One, that they are seperate Talents completely unconnected, and some happen to have both.  Or that Dreamwalking is exclusively dependant upon Dreaming.  i.e. &quot;Some Dreamers have the additional ability to Dreamwalk.  Above and beyond Dreaming.&quot;  I just think it's interesting that the five people we are SURE are Dreamers -- Egwene, Amys, Bair, Melaine, and Seana -- can also Dreamwalk.  Verin, as well, seemed sure that Dreaming and Dreamwalking are joined at the hip:<br /><br />&quot; 'But a Dreamer, child -- a true Dreamer -- can enter <i>Tel'aran'rhiod</i>.&quot;  (TDR, p240)<br /><br />That makes is sound, as well, that Dreamwalking is dependent upon Dreaming.  And Verin has access to Corianin Nedeal's pages upon pages of notes.  Would Verin be wrong in this conclusion?  Would Corianin?<br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>How could a person weave a complex (which you say the weave must be) weave while they are asleep, and weave it on themself? We've been told that it is very difficult to Heal oneself because of the diffilculty of seeing ones own body to weave on, weaves that affect the spirit of a person (eg compulsion) are woven on the head of person, but it is impossible to see weaves in mirrors, so how could as person weave this complex thing on their own head, while sleeping?</b></font><br /><br />I imagine that it a weave woven around the place where the person was sleeping, and then tied off (because otherwise the Forsaken would be holding the Source in the Dreamworld).  Once the person fell asleep, their position inside the weave would send them to T'A'R.  As to the exact details of the weave, that's much more difficult.  A Dreamwalker entering T'A'R involves only a tiny part of their spirit remaining within their body, just enough to keep them alive.  We've seen nothing like that with OP weaves.  The only thing I can liken it to is Ishy's TP use in the Stone, when he tries to rip Rand's soul out (or something nasty like that) at the end of TDR, or the soul merging/removing the DO does. <br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Demandred recognizes Elayne's ter'angreal as a teaching device. The simplest logic would say that people in the AoL use ter'angreal to enter T'A'R, unless they are Talented, as Dreamers, and thus begin to enter T'A'R after they begin channeling. The fact that there are multiple, personalized, T'A'R ter'angreal suggests this as well. </b></font><br /><br />Well, that is one possibility.  I think that the ter'angreal were more of a crutch for beginning learners, however, because we know the Forsaken entered the world with no access to any sort of *angreal.  And we see not glow about Graendal, at least, when Nyn spies on them in FOH.  I suppose they could all have ter'angreal like the twisted stone ring, but where would each Forsaken get one so specialized?<br /><br />sidious:<br /><font size="-1"><b>Sound proof that Nynaeve could have substituted Egwene as their apprentice. Proof that any woman who can channel can be taught to Dreamwalk. They cannot make her prophecise though , and thus she can never be a Dreamer.</b></font><br /><br />Nope.  The Wise Ones are well aware that Elayne/Nyn are using a ter'angreal.  When both Nyn/Elayne come to T'A'R near the end of FOH, they explain to Amys about the ter'angreal that require channeling.  Clearly she knew about the stone ring prior to this point.<br /><br />As to your statement that every channeller can become a Dreamwalker:  How many WO channellers are there?  And how many Dreamwalkers are there?  Just four.  And two not channellers.  Amys makes it very clear that the WOs, at least, think that Dreamwalking is a very specialized Talent and that not just any woman can channel can do it.<br /><br />&quot; 'I do not know that I like it, any woman who can channel being able to enter <i>Tel'aran'rhiod</i>, even in this state.' &quot; (FOH, p817) (in reference to the channeling ter'angreal)<br /><br />So do you think that the WOs are so jealous of their Dreamwalking ability that they wouldn't share it with other channelling WOs?  Clearly the ability to Dreamwalk is highly regarded among the Aiel.  Just think of all the uses the &quot;Need&quot; ability has.


created: 2005-02-08 00:07:27
subject: <b>To Agingcomputer</b>
body:
That's fine then , you've proved the point to me.<br /><br />But there is something else you have convinced me of ... none of the Forsaken are dreamwalkers (even Moghedien and Lanfear). If Dreaming occurs in all dreamwalkers then why have the Forsaken never used this ability?<br /><br />We have never heard the Forsaken refer to any of these prophecies like Egwene and the Wise Ones do. Even Moghedien and Lanfear never refer to their strange dreams regarding possible future events , yet we know that Lanfear has at least Egwene's ability in the area.<br /><br />We have never heard any of the other Forsaken reminiscing how useful a Dream would be to aid their cause. It doesn't make sense for it to be hidden for over ten books. I'm pretty sure this proves that you can be a master of TAR and not a Dreamer.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">A One Power researcher<br />Defender of Lanfear<br />Grand Ninja-Nae'blis to be feared <br />Original Warder to Isa <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br />New Warder to Nossie <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />Toy to Seriana <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/winky.gif" border="0" /><br />Mystified by a Fan <br />Bonded Phelix - I was young, it happened so fast.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-02-08 02:09:26
subject: <b>Agingcomputer</b>
body:
<i>How could a person weave a complex (which you say the weave must be) weave while they are asleep, and weave it on themself? We've been told that it is very difficult to Heal oneself because of the diffilculty of seeing ones own body to weave on, weaves that affect the spirit of a person (eg compulsion) are woven on the head of person, but it is impossible to see weaves in mirrors, so how could as person weave this complex thing on their own head, while sleeping?</i><br /><br /><b>I imagine that it a weave woven around the place where the person was sleeping, and then tied off (because otherwise the Forsaken would be holding the Source in the Dreamworld). Once the person fell asleep, their position inside the weave would send them to T'A'R. As to the exact details of the weave, that's much more difficult. A Dreamwalker entering T'A'R involves only a tiny part of their spirit remaining within their body, just enough to keep them alive. We've seen nothing like that with OP weaves. The only thing I can liken it to is Ishy's TP use in the Stone, when he tries to rip Rand's soul out (or something nasty like that) at the end of TDR, or the soul merging/removing the DO does. </b><br /><br />The only problem I see with this weaving and tying it off theory is how would they then exit T'A'R? RJ has said that if you tie off a weave it will last indefinitely, a person who wove something to put them in the Dreamworld would essentially trap themselves in that world. Much like Faile was trapped in tDR.<br /><br /><i>Phelix:<br />It never says that every Dreamwalker can Dream, I don't know where you are getting that from. All it says is that some Dreamers can Dreamwalk. So it is entirely possible that there are people who Dreamwalk without receiving prophetic Dreams.</i> <br /><br /><b>It's all a matter of interpretation. Saying &quot;Some Dreamers can Dreamwalk&quot; could mean two things: One, that they are seperate Talents completely unconnected, and some happen to have both. Or that Dreamwalking is exclusively dependant upon Dreaming. i.e. &quot;Some Dreamers have the additional ability to Dreamwalk. Above and beyond Dreaming.&quot; I just think it's interesting that the five people we are SURE are Dreamers -- Egwene, Amys, Bair, Melaine, and Seana -- can also Dreamwalk. Verin, as well, seemed sure that Dreaming and Dreamwalking are joined at the hip:<br /><br />&quot; 'But a Dreamer, child -- a true Dreamer -- can enter Tel'aran'rhiod.&quot; (TDR, p240)<br /><br />That makes is sound, as well, that Dreamwalking is dependent upon Dreaming. And Verin has access to Corianin Nedeal's pages upon pages of notes. Would Verin be wrong in this conclusion? Would Corianin?</b><br /><br />In answer to your last two questions, yes. They both could easily be wrong. Coriannin was studying these on her own with no supervision, and it sounds as if she was feeling her way by experimenting. Verin is making a statement based on what she read of Coriannin's works. If Coriannin was wrong, then Verin <b>is</b> wrong. <br /><br />However, we have seen people that we all assume are dreamwalkers (Lanfear and Moghedian) who do not Dream, or at least have made no reference to any Dreams, past or present. It would be a perfect thing for Lanfear to say at a Forsaken social &quot;Oh, by the way, I've had a Dream. Lews Therin, on a boat...&quot; or Moggy... &quot;I saw myself in Tanchico, and a yellow titan was attacking me. At the end of the Dream she sent out a yellow leash, and I was bound.&quot;<br /><br />So, either RJ just hasnt' let us see the forsaken having Dreams, which I doubt, they are not Dreamers, but Dreamwalk, or lastly, Dreaming and Dreamwalking are independant.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Warder to Be'lal's Girl<br />Wotmania Lottery<br /><br /><br /><br />&quot;Meh. A good relationship is like fireworks: loud, explosive, and liable to maim you if you hold on too long.&quot; ~ Sven, Questionable Content<br /><br />Bonded by Sidious. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-02-08 08:48:04
subject: <b>Shadowsouled</b>
body:
There is a possibility that connection to DO has changed souls of Forsaken. Or that DO gives them some abilities that they didn't &quot;normally&quot; have. But on the other hand price of that  could be that they have lost ability to do something else like &quot;normal&quot; Dreaming. After all they stopped being normal mortals when they sold their souls to DO. Or I think that DO can choose what Dreams His Chosen will see.


created: 2005-02-09 15:48:26
subject: <b>etc., etc.</b>
body:
sidious:<br /><font size="-1"><b>But there is something else you have convinced me of ... none of the Forsaken are dreamwalkers (even Moghedien and Lanfear). If Dreaming occurs in all dreamwalkers then why have the Forsaken never used this ability?<br /><br />We have never heard any of the other Forsaken reminiscing how useful a Dream would be to aid their cause. It doesn't make sense for it to be hidden for over ten books. I'm pretty sure this proves that you can be a master of TAR and not a Dreamer.</b></font><br /><br />It's definitely crossed my mind.  Besides, Lanfear and Moghedien haven't really shown themselves to be <i>masters</i> of the Dreamworld.  They've had some cute tricks, sure, but even Rahvin could use the Dreamworld to hurt Rand.<br /><br />However, I think there is one Forsaken we can label as a Dreamer for sure.  The prophetic images given to the DFs in the DF Social at the beginning of TGH by Ishy seems positive enough proof, IMO, that Ishy is an actual male Dreamwalker/Dreamer.  When you take into account that Ishy at first thought that Rand had blown the Horn, yet Carridin the Horn associated with Mat in ACOS, it makes sense because the BWB clarifies that Dreaming is nowhere as near a precise, set-in-stone Talent as Foretelling is -- it's more of a Portal Stone-esque display of possibilities.  So I think you're right, only Ishy is a Dreamer and true Dreamwalker.<br /><br />Phelix:<br /><font size="-1"><b>The only problem I see with this weaving and tying it off theory is how would they then exit T'A'R? RJ has said that if you tie off a weave it will last indefinitely, a person who wove something to put them in the Dreamworld would essentially trap themselves in that world. Much like Faile was trapped in tDR.</b></font><br /><br />Well, actually, you can set a tied-off weave to dissipate over a period of time.  For instance, Sammael sent the Shaido through gateways that he tied off, set to dissipate over a period of time.  As for Faile, the question is whether or not she KNEW how to leave the Dream.  Remember, Egwene had no idea how to exit the Dreamworld the first time she was in it -- Lanfear had to rip the ring off of her to get her out.  I imagine that if the weave truly sent you into the Dreamworld in the same manner as a Dreamwalker, a tutored initiate would be able to step out of the Dream in the same manner as a Dreamwalker.<br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>So, either RJ just hasnt' let us see the forsaken having Dreams, which I doubt, they are not Dreamers, but Dreamwalk, or lastly, Dreaming and Dreamwalking are independant.</b></font><br /><br />See my above comments to sidious.  Slowly, I've come to question pretty much everything the Forsaken do in the Dreamworld, even to the point of saying that Moggy and Lanfear are not true Dreamers or Dreamwalkers, just more proficient than the others (or gave extra time and energy to learning the secrets of the Dreamworld).<br /><br />PTH:<br /><font size="-1"><b>There is a possibility that connection to DO has changed souls of Forsaken. Or that DO gives them some abilities that they didn't &quot;normally&quot; have. But on the other hand price of that could be that they have lost ability to do something else like &quot;normal&quot; Dreaming. After all they stopped being normal mortals when they sold their souls to DO. Or I think that DO can choose what Dreams His Chosen will see. </b></font><br /><br />Well, anything is possible.  But I don't think that the DO has such a powerful hold over the souls of the Forsaken as some think.  For instance, I don't buy the whole &quot;immortal&quot; thing.  IMO, it was just another carrot to win some AS to his side.  Can the DO be so powerful as to change the fundamental principles of the weaving and severing of a thread in the Pattern?  It's much simpler to say that he lied.  And much simpler to say that the Forsaken channel themselves into T'A'R than saying the DO has control over the Dreams of any Dreamers among them.


created: 2005-02-10 04:43:06
subject: <b>Here's something....</b>
body:
I didn't mean to jump into the middle of your debate on this issue, but this is more fuel for the fire, so to speak. It's Aviendha talking to Rand in Cold Rocks Hold, the night the Draghkar and Trollocs attack:<br /><br />&quot;She let out a long, heavy breath. 'I was not supposed to let you know. If Bair finds out - Seana said it was too dangerous tonight. I do not understand it: I cannot enter the dream without one of them to help me. Something dangerous tonight is all I know. That is why they are taking turns at the door of this roof. They are all worried.'&quot; TSR, Traps.<br /><br />Two things of importance here that I can see. One, The Aiel don't have or use any ter'angreal that we have ever seen, to help them enter TAR. And two, the two WO's that Aviendha mentions helping her to enter the dream cannot channel. The second point is more important here, I think. Even though Avi can channel, these two WO's know nothing about the Power, and certainly should be unable to guide her use in that way, IMO. And, as far as we can tell, Aviendha is not a Dreamer or Dreamwalker. So, how can they help her enter the dream?<br /><br />Anyway, I liked the theory. I do agree that the Forsaken and probably all AoL channelers (And maybe others) received training in TAR, and have some way of getting there without a ter'angreal, having to go to sleep and dream, or be there in the flesh. Objects of the Power are fairly rare, and if they needed one, then they wouldn't have let the BA walk off with any. Going to sleep to get into TAR seems very unrealistic, simply because we see them there at any time of day. And, Moggy seems to freak out that Rand and Rahvin are there in the flesh, making it sound out-of-the-ordinary. (Plus, it seems she told Nynaeve they had an advantage because they <i>weren't</i> there in the flesh.)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2005-02-10 21:04:10
subject: <b>LitN just handed the point to the other side AC</b>
body:
If these other two WO can get into the dream, and have the skill to take Aviendha in as well, that's a large hole in your theory.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Warder to Be'lal's Girl<br />Wotmania Lottery<br /><br /><br /><br />&quot;Meh. A good relationship is like fireworks: loud, explosive, and liable to maim you if you hold on too long.&quot; ~ Sven, Questionable Content<br /><br />Bonded by Sidious. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-02-10 22:44:49
subject: <b>Can it be explained?</b>
body:
I was wondering when someone was going to bring up this incident.  It can be explained by NO conventional means.  It violates nearly everything we know about the properties of Dreamwalking.<br /><br />First, the Dreamwalkers brought Aviendha into the Dreamworld to spy on Rand from his dreams.  But, in a few chapters, here's what they say about this practice:<br /><br />&quot; 'It has been handed down among Dreamwalkers since the first that no one must ever be <i>brought</i> into the dream.' &quot; (TSR, p855)<br /><br />Second, Aviendha was clearly WITHIN Rand's dream.  The Wise Ones have no idea how to pull someone from their dreams into T'A'R.  They have not studied it out like Egwene has.  It is forbidded.  Aviendha says that they have been watching Rand from without, much as Egwene spies on Aviendha, Berelain, Isendre, and others throughout the next few books.  No, Aviendha in TSR is INSIDE Rand's dream.<br /><br />Now, the Wise Ones are well aware that when a person is inside another's dream, he or she is helpless.  They tell Egwene about being pulled inside another's dream in LOC, as well as in TSR.  You can communicate with another person's dream without actually entering it, but Egwene does this in ACOS and says it's a matter of hearing a disembodied voice within the dream, not anything else.  The Wise Ones are clear on this matter:<br /><br />&#8220; &#8216;Foolish girl.&#8217; Bair&#8217;s long hair swung as she shook her head. &#8216;...To step into another&#8217;s dream is very dangerous unless she knows you and expects you. It is her dream, not as here. There, this Amathera will control all. Even you.&#8217; &#8221; (TSR, p854)<br /><br />I don't think the Wise Ones have given Rand such a level of trust as to enter his dreams, and especially not to a point where they would send an ignorant girl like Aviendha into his dream.<br /><br />And since it is Bair and Seana who are helping Aviendha into the Dreamworld, it is nothing to do with the Power or the fact that Avi is a channeler.<br /><br />I hate to resort to such a mundane response, but I think this is an RJ slipup.  It just doesn't square with the precepts of the Dreamworld that the Wise Ones adhere to.


created: 2005-02-11 16:35:51
subject: <b>The Forsaken Effect and Aviendha</b>
body:
Very nice job with your theory, and I really like how your running the discussion on the BB.  It's always good to seem some good, in-depth discussion going on at the Theory Board.  I think I agree with most of  your interpretations here, AgingComputer, and you've really provided some good quotes to back up your ideas.  <br /><br />I'd like to change the direction of the conversation a little, though, and talk about the Forsaken Effect.  It seems to me that there is some considerable difficulty in determining what should be attributed to the Forsaken Effect, and what should be attributed to the more general state of anarchy that is sweeping across the continent.  As you pointed out in the body of the theory, Illian and Tear, under Be'lal and Sammael respectively, are fairly cut and dry.  Citizens in both cities are experiencing strange dreams, some of which are very specific to those two Forsaken, some which are identified simply as general nightmares.<br /><br />&quot;(Mat) began to have bad dreams, no doubt from all his worrying.  Egwene and Nynaeve and Elayne, and some fellow with close-cropped white hair, wearing a coat with puffy striped sleeves like Comar's, laughing and weaving a net around them.  Only sometimes it was Moiraine he was weaving the net for, and sometimes he held a crystal sword instead, a sword that blazed like the sun as soon as he touched it.  Sometimes it was Rand who held the sword.  For some reason he dreamed of Rand a good deal.&quot; -- <i>A Storm in Tear</i><br /><br />It's interesting, too, that nightmares are pretty widespread in Tear.<br /><br />&quot;<i>It is all those bad dreams,</i> (Nynaeve) told herself.  <i>I cannot understand what they mean, and now Elayne and I are having them, too, and I don't know what that means either...</i>&quot; -- <i>Bait for the Net</i><br /><br />&quot;My apprentices just walked away, all three of them, the worthless fools, and I've plenty you could do....You're a deal better than any of those louts, moping around and staring, muttering about their nightmares.  As if everyone doesn't have nightmares, sometimes.&quot; -- <i>The Hammer</i><br /><br />It seems to me that these nightmares must be somewhat personalized.  The blacksmith and his apprentices might not consider seeing three strange women being put into a cage or net as a nightmare.  I think this is born out, somewhat, by the nightmares that Nynaeve and Elayne witness in Tar Valon TAR in LoC.  It is also apparent that this particular aspect of the Forsaken Effect is controllable to one degree or another.  The best example of that is Lanfear and Asmodean in Cold Rocks Hold.  Although they aren't there for very long, they are with the Cold Rocks algai'd'siswai for a considerable period, and with the four Wise One Dreamers, but there is never any indication that any of those people suffer from widespread nightmares.  <br /><br />There is also the example of Moghedien in Tanchico, which is almost entirely unique in certain ways.  As you pointed out, Amys immediately identifies an evil that is present in Tanchico (although she misses Lanfear's evil that is under her own nose in the Waste), and there are also the rats, beetles, etc that Egwene finds in Tanchico TAR.  There are not, however, any widespread reports of nightmares in the city, nor do Nynaeve, Egwene or Egeanin ever think about having nightmares in any of their POVs.  So, it seems that Moghedien is exerting a certain amount of control over her own Forsaken Effect in Tanchico.<br /><br />What does this all have to do with Rahvin?  Well, it seems to me that Caemlyn lies somewhere in between the examples of Tanchico and Tear.  <br /><br />&quot;Too much has changed since (Gaebril) came, but I cannot lay it all at his door.  There just seem to be too many people muttering in corners since he came.  You would think we were all Cairhienin, the way they were before this civil war, all potting and trying to find advantage.  I keep having bad dreams since Gaebril came, and I'm not the only one.&quot; -- <i>To Race the Shadow</i><br /><br />So, Rahvin is effecting the populace's dreams to a certain degree, although perhaps not as drastically as Sammael or Be'lal.  There is also a certain effect on the attitudes of the city's inhabitants.  Morgase also notices a change when she is walking to the Queen's Blessing.<br /><br />&quot;(Morgase) heard whispers about herself, that maybe Andor had had queens long enough.  Only murmurs, but what one mane dared to speak in a low voice, ten thought.&quot; -- <i>Memories</i><br /><br />The real world Forsaken Effect seems complicated by other events, however, because Morgase has not been ruling very well for the last few months when Mat and Thom arrive in Caemlyn.  In Tanchico TAR, Egwene notices that, &quot;Everything seemed in a poor state of repair, from the carts to the ships...&quot; (<i>What Lies Hidden</i>) and then Elayne notices in the real world Tanchico that &quot;Worn was the only fit description for the milling masses, worn and frenzied.&quot; (<i>Hidden Faces</i>)  How much of these effects are directly attributable to Moghedien and how much to the anarchy of rebellion, Dragonsworn and an unpopular King trying to manipulate the Panarch's office is certainly debatable.<br /><br />And again the real world Forsaken Effect seems to also depend on the particular Forsaken that is involved.  In Tear we see: &quot;The prices were outrageous for everything, the quality inevitibly poor, and almost no one seemed to care, not the people buying or those selling.&quot; (<i>Bait for the Net</i>)  But in Illian, the situation is markedly different from either Tanchico or Tear.  &quot;The sun shown down on the sparkling roof tiles, made reflections from pale stone walls.  Those buildings looked as if they might be cool, inside.  The buildings were clean and bright, and so were the people.&quot; (<i>Easing the Badger</i>)  I suppose it should be noted that the Perfume Quarter, where the Easing the Badger resides, is dirtier and smellier than this area around the Square of Tammuz, but Lan's reaction seems to indicate that is fairly normal.  Caemlyn seems to fall more into the Illian category in this regard than the Tanchico category.  <br /><br />I would guess that all of these little bits of information indicate that Rahvin and Sammael are similar in that they both want an orderly and secure power bases to conscript soldiers and launch conquests.  The general attitudue of the people and the physical state of their cities seem to be optimized for those goals.  Be'lal in Tear, on the other hand, is primarily interested in gaining Callandor.  He probably just wants the citizenry to stay out of his way, and doesn't particularly care whether the city is well run or not.  Moghedien in Tanchico may not be directing the anarchy, but nor is she in any overt role of civic leadership.  Her influence is probably felt on more of a subconscious level that is apparent to an experienced Wise One Dreamer like Amys, and Moghedien is probably more interested in limiting the number of peons that end up in TAR than she is in spreading her influence using dreams.  Mesaana in Tar Valon is an especially tough one to define, because her influence doesn't become entirely evident until LoC.  Even in LoC, the effects are only really found in the city of Tar Valon rather than the Tower itself, and that doesn't entirely make sense.  Sure, Aes Sedai can and do shield their dreams and may be immune from the Forsaken Effect, but the same can't be said of novices, Accepted or servants that also inhabit the Tower.  Even the physical manifestation of garbage in Tar Valon's streets could be as attributable to Elaida's mis-rule as to Mesaana's Forsaken Effect.<br /><br />To sum up, the Forsaken Effect seems very difficult to define.  It is explored by RJ most thoroughly in TDR and Tear, Illian and Caemlyn seem to contain the most isolated and defined examples of the Forsaken Effect.  Tanchico and Tar Valon seem to indicate that the Effect is not universal in scope or in specific effects seen in the cities.  All of this is further complicated by the consequences of general anarchy that are sweeping the land at the end of the third Age.  Further, the example of Asmodean and Lanfear in Cold Rocks Hold, and Moghedien in Salidar, seem to indicate that the Forsaken Effect is something that can be entirely controlled by the Forsaken, too.<br /><br />Lastly, about Aviendha, it may be that the Wise Ones can guide non-dreamwalkers into TAR similar to the way that the Forsaken snag people into dreams of their making.  IIRC, there is a quote where it is stated that Aviendha has no Dreamer/dreamwalking ability and that she doesn't receive that type of training any more.  Also, even though it's a forbidden practice to snatch people in constructs of the Wise Ones' making doesn't necessarily mean that the Wise Ones don't know how to do it.  After all, it's hard to forbid something if nobody knows what it is.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Diomedes <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2006-07-09 18:50:42
subject: <b>Wise Ones and Forsaken Dreamwalkers</b>
body:
I like your theory on the Forsaken effect. In fact, I believe  it was this which alerted Moiraine to the presence of Sammael and Be'lal in TDR. The same phenomenon popping up in Caemlyn with Mat's and Basil Gill's ignorance seemed to be RJ's way of hinting at Gaebril's true identity without giving too much away to the characters too soon.  <br />I have to disagree with a couple of the premises you based the rest of your theory on, however. <br />The Male Forsaken are not Dreamwalkers: They do seem to have a way to enter Tel'aran'rhiod and use it as well as any Dreamwalker with the Talent but the Wise Ones belief that male Dreamwalkers are rare is based on 1/ Dreamewalkers are Wise Ones and men cannot be Wise Ones so they do not actively search for them. 2/ The belief that male Dreamwalkers are rare means it is a waste of time to search for them. Dreamwalking seems to be a rare Talent among women, too, with no Dreamwalkers that we no of in the whole of Randland except Amys, Bair, Melaine and Egwene, but we never hear anyone say the Talent is as common as snakes with legs among women. I believe, the men who can Dreamwalk are probably those whose Talent is too strong to suppress, but with no one to train them or even tell them what is happening, they get themselves killed off in the Dream or learn to step out of it and not to return. Like Rand. Others probably could learn with training but are not trained. Ishamael seems to have entered Rand's actual dream, not always Tel'aran'rhiod, which is why Rand knew that some dreams were just dreams while others were real, but both could be dangerous.<br />What is possible to achieve in Tel'aran'rhiod in the flesh: Comparing Rand and Egwene's abilities in the flesh with what the Forsaken can do is like comparing a pre-schooler with a university student. Rand does not even know where he is and only learns a little by watching Rahvin and sheer luck. If you want to know what is possible in the flesh and what is not, then you need the POV of someone who actually knows what is possible.<br />The Wise Ones are as skilled as the Forsaken in the Dream: This is as valid as the Aes Sedai's assumption the massive burst of power channelled at Shadar Logoth could only have been caused by the Forsaken.  What do the Wise Ones really know about what the Forsaken are capable of except through half forgotten myth? True, their knowledge seems to have been passed down from the Age of Legends, with more of it being saved through the Breaking than in other areas of knowledge, but some would still have been lost, and I think they would have learned more in the 3000+ years since, too. But until they have an actual confrontation with a Forsaken that is not won by pure chance or overwhelming strength, then we cannot accept this assumption either. Or a  knowledgable POV.


created: 2007-05-24 14:46:02
subject: <b>Agreeing with Beca</b>
body:
I agree with Beca fully on that no one including the Wise Ones know what the Forsaken are fully capable of in TAR.  WO think male dreamwalker are as likely as a snake with legs simply because male channelers have been weeded out in the present time.  They would have probably thought the same of a man who can channel.  They live in a world where everything to do with the Power and Dreamwalking have become the territory of females - be it Aes Sedai or Wise Ones.<br /><br />And I totally do not think that the Wise Ones can come anywhere near matching the Forsaken in their skill and power in TAR.  The Forsaken avoid the WO, true, but more because they make a point of keeping themselves hidden for now.  However in Fire of Heaven, Lanfear specifically told Rand that she can scare the WO so bad in their dreams that they would never go into TAR again or try to spy on his dreams.  This shows that the Forsaken have no fear of the WO abilities in TAR.  They don't bother with the WO mostly because it is beneath their notice.  However in the case of Lanfear, when she felt that the WO were infringing upon her interests (Rand) she was more than willing and confident of confronting the WO singly and crushing them completely.


created: 2005-02-04 12:53:04
subject: <b>I like it</b>
body:
Good thoughts. Looks beleivable. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> Very little comment though - in the example of light bulbs it's the same &quot;heat&quot; energy that allows it to glow. In case of woman-saidar, it's only light energy, no heat (I guess it makes it &quot;fantasy&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> ).<br /><br />


created: 2005-02-04 13:28:35
subject: <b>wow</b>
body:
this has to be one of the theories that i have read which makes the most sense. Well done!<br />On a side note, if Halima started to become more and more like a woman (in his mind), then would he/she begin to draw on saidar?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Balefried<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-02-04 13:41:23
subject: <b>Excellent theory!</b>
body:
You wouldn't happen to have an explanation for the Song of <i>Saidin</i> to go along with that, would you?<br /><br />Well, that's just extra anyway, as I said, excellent theory.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>War must be, while we defend our lives against a destroyer who would devour all; but I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend</i><br />~Faramir</font><p></p>


created: 2005-02-04 14:18:13
subject: <b>Unreal</b>
body:
I'm curious as to how the energy can be released as light without everyone being able to see it.  This suggests to me that it's not actually light, but a representation of the Power.  On the whole, though, your theory is intriguing and plausible.


created: 2005-02-04 14:51:29
subject: <b>Good Theory but ...</b>
body:
I really like your ideas.  I don't agree completely though.  In part because I had my own theory (&quot;Female:Male Relationships&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> which touches  on some of the  same subjects, the explaination for the different senses in particular.   However my main problems don't have much to do with the differences between the two theories seeing as either could be modified to fit into the other pretty easily in my opinion.  My main concerns are...<br /><br />Why something invisible to the untrained eye in a human being would require visible light in an object?<br /><br />If the light a women produces is excess energy that is only visible to women and the mechanism is the model for sa'angreal then why wouldn't  they copy the mechanism exactly?<br /><br />If all the witnesses to Mat's healing are channelers how do you know the sa'angreal produces real light and not the invisible saidar &quot;light&quot;?<br /><br />Why do sa'angreal require this mechanism and not angreal?  They perform the same basic fuction.  If the amount of power they used had set limits this would be less of a problem but their levels are directly related to the channelers ability.  If an extremely weak female got hold of a low level sa'angreal and became as strong as an extremely strong sister wouldn't it still light up though it wasn't remotely near its capacity?<br /><br />And thank you making me think of this flaw in my own theory but how does the male a'dam work with your reasoning behind who leads a circle?<br /><br />I think those are enough questions for now.  Good ideas.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where did these Skimmers come from?  I mean if they didn't want to read the book they could have just Traveled to another author.  Why risk arriving at the wrong destination?  Why risk falling into darkness?</font><p></p>


created: 2005-02-04 16:26:39
subject: <b>Im impressed</b>
body:
Interesting ideas, definitely. perfect explanation as to why female channelers glow and are less powerful.<br /><br />One question, however. as asmodean said, female channelers can be more powerful than men, if rarely. if they give up energy to the aura, then how? <br />I will now attempt to answer my own question. all channelers vary in power, (i.e. current aes sedai to lanfear) so a strong female vs a weak male would qualify as some female channelers being more powerful. sorry to waste a paragraph there...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">-Sabin<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-02-04 16:34:45
subject: <b>To Onarishma</b>
body:
About the a'dam. If you use a normal a'dam, and leash a man who can channel, the man will die screaming (not sure if the woman will too). Perhaps this can be because his energy will be drawn out to maintain the link?. Maybe the mal a'dam is designed specifically for a woman to lead. However, if the Taint was the cause for the male a'dam being Bad (angry, sad feelings), it shouldn't be that bad when Rand is collared. However, the flaw can come from this discrepancy (woman has to maintain a circle with &quot;wasted&quot; energy).<br /><br />Also, I remember that someone mentions that a woman has slightly less than her normal strength in a circle. How would this be explained in this theory?<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">http://www.orkut.com/Profile.aspx?uid=4841668765074332965<br /><br />&quot;It's like God gave you the tools to build a house, and the blueprint is in you. Just remember to use rubber gloves.&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2005-02-04 17:50:37
subject: <b>I was talking about the male a'dam</b>
body:
If one woman must use her excess energy to maintain the link then a single woman would never be able to use the male adam.  If this excess energy can be produced artificially then whats to stop someone from developing a way for to men to link without a woman.  I personally think the loss of Power in the link is what maintains it and that that loss of Power is what limits an all female circle.  When you reach 13 you are harnessing only a little more than 12 and if you tried to add more the loss of energy would be greater than the amount contributed.<br /><br />Though I think I may want to withdraw the adam issue because Egwene never commented on her Power being limited or expanded by the a'dam so maybe it does not create a full link.  From what we have see it only links the mind not the Power of the damane and suldam.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where did these Skimmers come from?  I mean if they didn't want to read the book they could have just Traveled to another author.  Why risk arriving at the wrong destination?  Why risk falling into darkness?</font><p></p>


created: 2005-02-05 06:51:45
subject: <b>I like it but have a question</b>
body:
Do you think that there will ever be a woman who could harness that &quot;glow&quot; and use it - or would it be unnecessary waste?<br /><br />Thanks for the theory.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="blue">Bondholder of Neroto Yoduff &amp; TEO<br />Sce`c of Nicodemus26 The Mighty Midget<br />Ambassador Isa ~ The Rebel Blue!<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /></font></font><p></p>


created: 2005-02-05 07:40:29
subject: <b>Thumbs up!</b>
body:
I just want to say you're a genius! This makes so much sens it is almost scary... you're not a close, personal friend of RJ are you?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perplexed.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smackhead.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /> LLT <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-02-05 07:44:20
subject: <b>oh...</b>
body:
I have a question too... Why is the glow around women channeling not visible to ordinary people? In your theory you make it sound like the glow is made by saidar in the same way a woman channeling to make light would... light made by saidar can be seen by ordinary people you know...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perplexed.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smackhead.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /> LLT <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-02-05 16:24:53
subject: <b>The Glow</b>
body:
Is only visible to channeling women, because it is, after all, Saidar light. The light from Sa'angreal is normal light. Am I right?<br /><br />Great theory! Thumbs up.<br /><br />One question though: Is it the glow that gives goose-bumps to men who can channel?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Democracy - two wolves and a sheep deciding what to have for dinner</font><p></p>


created: 2005-02-06 14:48:57
subject: <b>Responses</b>
body:
Thanks for the compliments guys. And thanks for the criticisms too ... it means you gave my theory some time and I'm grateful for that.<br /><br /><b>To balefried</b><br /><br />Halima contains a man's soul as far as I am concerned. It is beyond the scope of the theory so I can't really comment on it , but I believe (s)he will always draw saidin at original potential.<br /><br /><b>To Fanatic Templar</b><br /><br />I haven't really read the Song of Saidin properly for ages so I can't comment on it.<br /><br /><b>To Onarishma</b><br /><br />Several people asked about the light story. The light around women is only visible to other women who can channel. We know this. The reason is that it is a diversion of their strength into the area around them. It is a resistance of saidar flowing into them and can therefore not be seen by men or normal women.<br /><br />The light around sa'angreal is real light. This is because the Power is flowing through an artificial conduit and is literally resisted as if it was electricity flowing through a wire. It is a slight difference which I omitted from the theory but it is not unexpected - women are biological conduits , sa'angreal are artificial.<br /><br />I don't know why they didn't copy the mechanism exactly. In fact , I'm pretty sure they tried. Sa'angreal allow enough Power to flow through them to level cities , for them to give off a small amount of light as a byproduct shows near perfect conduction.<br /><br />It is a good question you ask about Mat's Healing and one I've thought about before. The answer is that angreal and sa'angreal don't embrace the Power but rather let it flow through them. Whenever a person uses an angreal or sa'angreal , the glow around the CHANNELER increases as they draw more and not the angreal or sa'angreal. Therefore what they saw was real light.<br /><br />Your question about angreal involvement is equally good and another which I considered. If Daigain used the bar sa'angreal would she exceed Lanfear with an angreal ... probably not. But could Daigian use the bar sa'angreal? I'm not so sure. There are limits to who can use sa'angreal. Only the very strongest can use the Choedan Kal and it is strange that the strongest Sister in the Tower used the bar sa'angreal to Heal Mat. Therefore I propose that all sa'angreal have a strength limit. The limit is that to overcome the resistance of the sa'angreal to the Power. The Choedan Kal need a very strong channeler to use them because they need to create the initial potential difference to make the Power actually start flowing through them. The two strongest channelers - Rand and Lanfear appear to have used their respective angreals to maximum potential without causing any heat or damage to them. There must be a decent safety barrier with angreal. Even if Rand used his to a maximum , it could only hold say 3 times his maximum compared to Callandor which holds up to 100 times his potential. The energy is much greater.<br /><br />I can't answer the question about the male a'dam and I will nevr try. It is a ter'angreal and their workings are very strange.<br /><br /><b>To Sabin</b><br /><br />Women and men share the same continuum of strength but women divert some of their strength to the area around themselves. We know that the strongest women are weaker than the strongest men. This is the reason.<br /><br /><b>To SR71</b><br /><br />The only way for the energy waste to be prevented would be to catch the flow of saidar before it entered the woman. The woman is the resistor after all. If they did manage this , which I believe to be impossible , they the circle would collapse because the energy to sustain the link would be removed. Even when a man links with a woman the saidar still flows through the woman first before channeling through the man. Notice how the man never glows even when channeling saidar.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">A One Power researcher<br />Defender of Lanfear<br />Grand Ninja-Nae'blis to be feared <br />Original Warder to Isa <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br />New Warder to Nossie <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />Toy to Seriana <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/winky.gif" border="0" /><br />Mystified by a Fan <br />Bonded Phelix - I was young, it happened so fast.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-02-07 01:21:51
subject: <b>men can sence the ability</b>
body:
your theory sounds good but I do not agree to some points made. Mainly your assumption that men can not tell how powerful another man is in the power. First point of argument is the fact that searching parties go and test men using the 'resonance' test, that is how they have found so many with the ability in them. Secondly constantly coments are made onthe power of some of the ashamen.<br /><br />I am not sure that we can rule out that men have a outward appearance of channeling, while it is not mentioned I do not remember it being said that their is nothing either. Of course a man knows that another man is channeling and can tell who and how much. Unlike the effect of woman channeling in that they know that someone is but not WHO is.<br /><br />Thanks though I enjoyed reading <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />


created: 2005-02-07 16:15:20
subject: <b>I like it</b>
body:
I didnt think anyone could explain all this. I like theories like this, but sometimes I just dont think RJ thought of this while he wrote it, but it still makes sense.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br /><br /> <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-02-07 21:15:28
subject: <b>Only one flaw!</b>
body:
I love your theory,<br />I only have one problem with it but first you must understand that it's been about 2 years since I've picked up wheel of time and read it all so bare with me here. <br />    I think that men that channel can sense when another man is channeling AND can sense how much. The men as well as the women can sense the magnitude of how much that person can channel, and because of that both men and women can sometimes identify who it is that is channeling(like a close friend of theirs that they are used to channeling with). <br />    to back that up, the part i'm thinking of is in the Fires of Heaven when Rand asks Taim to draw all of the power he can handle until he can handle no more. Rand was surprised at how strong in the power Taim was. So Rand must have been able to sense the amount of power Taim was drawing, thus men knowing how much men can channel.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Surge WASE<br />The Saa_Prophet</font><p></p>


created: 2005-02-09 17:49:19
subject: <b>New Question</b>
body:
I like the theory, but I have a question.  If you need the resistance to make a conduit in order to link, why and how does a man enter the circle after thirteen.  Is he there only as a conduit at that point?  If so, how would he control the circle?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I love Moiraine <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /> (probably more than I should love a fictional character)<br /><br />I like sadists much more than masochists.  Masochists are so needy.<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-02-09 23:10:29
subject: <b>Nice Job</b>
body:
Wow, what an incredible job you have done with this.  You have pretty much convinced me.  Now, I would just like to see Jordan confirm it, but I am certain that you are almost spot on <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />  Brilliant!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Peace is only found through victory, and fools aspire to peace and freedom without cost.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-02-17 05:11:30
subject: <b>Not very logical to me</b>
body:
I really don't understand where you got this idea, to me it's more speculation then theory. The light around women channelers can only be seen by other channelers, and I find the jump you then make to the idea that this is some kind of dumped excess energy totally inconsistent. <br />All light gives of heat in our world, and RJ hasn't changed that in the books. So if the light is really dumped energy, and not 'part of the magic' like seeing flows or reading residues, then sa'angreal like the Choedan Kal and Callandor should burn everything in their neighbourhood when they 'shine as brightly as the sun'. They don't, so your theory doesn't work. <br />Also, I have a problem with the sa'angreal/channeler differences. If both are dumped energy, why is the sa'angreal glow visible to everyone but the channeler glow only to female channelers, and how is it possible for a channeler to hide this by using inverted flows? <br />Lastly, I would like to draw your attention to ter'angreal, some of which seem to consume amounts of saidar similar to sa'angreal. I cannot remember descriptions of these objects glowing. <br />That said, it was an interesting idea, and I hope you'll go on writing theories. Punching holes in other peoples theories is, after all, far easier then writing one oneself.


created: 2005-02-17 10:14:01
subject: <b>r</b>
body:
We know that when a channeler &quot;embrace&quot; OP his/her senses will become stronger. But there are differences for instance it is possible that enchanted woman would see infrared when man would see ultraviolet light.  So if channeling woman will radiate infrared light only another channeling women would see it.


created: 2005-02-22 15:05:34
subject: <b>I only see one problem that matters...</b>
body:
You talk about linking, but you don't have any explanation as to why after 12 women link in a circle, they can't bring any more in unless a man joins the link. If things are as you say, it would become progressively easier to add women, since the aura of energy would become larger. Read what Asmodean says on linking. For every 12th person to join the circle, a man must be added to bring more people in.<br /><br />Aside from that, well done.


created: 2005-04-05 17:48:45
subject: <b>Very good!</b>
body:
It makes sence. But it could also be looked at the other way around. Remember that men are always fighting sadin or they will die, and that women have to submit to sadar. Instead of looking at it like a resitance, or an inperfection, you could look at it as a kind of buffer. I like it.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Three threads woven together share one another's doom. When one is cut, all are. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/avi.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/birgitte.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Proud member of the Brown Ajah <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Bonded to ScaredPeasant</font><p></p>


created: 2005-09-08 23:41:00
subject: <b>I really like it</b>
body:
I voted yes if for no other reason than it is really well reasoned and well written. Very original idea, I just like it a lot. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sister to Nossy<br />Shot swapper with a_fan <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br />Bonded to Phil Reborn and Sidious<br />&quot;Mommies are like wizards&quot; ~ CVH <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br />The fact that I don't agree with you in no way means I didn't understand you.</font><p></p>


created: 2007-12-16 22:23:43
subject: <b>Interesting</b>
body:
but I agree with LTT that as a by product of Saidar it should thus be visible to anyone much as the glow around the sa'angreal you mention.  It's hard to judged for certain as we've only ever seen either of these phenominon via the POV of channelers.<br /><br />I would chalk this up more to just another difference between Saidar and Saidin (fish/birds).<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I'm a Domani Drag Queen who went to the Black tower.  Leane is my 3rd cousin twice removed and I showed her how to use make-up!<br /><br />I don't deal in absolutes or spell check!</font><p></p>


created: 2008-07-12 12:22:22
subject: <b>Men produce Something</b>
body:
I like the theory, but...<br />Men aren't perfect conduits: if they would't release anything, other men wouldn't have anything to sence before the actual channeling.<br />But as we know men do sence others holding Saidin.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Don't say always, don't say never.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-02-06 07:52:14
subject: <b>Very interesting</b>
body:
You bring lots of new ideas here. Thank you!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bela.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bela.gif" border="0" /> Don't even think to ask how I came up with my nick; you don't want to know <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-02-06 10:55:22
subject: <b>Wait a second...</b>
body:
Why would they put legs on the Serpent then? And why would the Serpent not be biting its own tail?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">http://www.orkut.com/Profile.aspx?uid=4841668765074332965<br /><br />&quot;It's like God gave you the tools to build a house, and the blueprint is in you. Just remember to use rubber gloves.&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2005-02-06 14:42:07
subject: <b>I loved it!</b>
body:
It's great. And as for the one above me...<br /><br />The Wheel of Time turns, and Ages come and pass, leaving memories that become legend...<br /><br />I don't think the serpent biting it's tail was introduced until the formation of the White Tower?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>War must be, while we defend our lives against a destroyer who would devour all; but I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend</i><br />~Faramir</font><p></p>


created: 2005-02-06 18:52:10
subject: <b>this reminded me...</b>
body:
...of a theory I posted on the message board long ago, in which i made a connection between the image of the dragon and medieval bestiaries, which were books that associated various traits with animals. some of those animals were patchworks of other animals, and the traits were things like strength, loyalty, treachery, etc. the uneducated or merely uniformed came to believe in these mythical creatures because they were used to teach lessons in morality. i was thinking that this was how the dragon image became associated with lews therin, because he was known to have the traits associated with that mythical creature, which was made up of an assortment of other real creatures.<br />


created: 2005-02-06 20:52:49
subject: <b>Mat's spear -ashandarei</b>
body:
I believe you are on to soemthing here though I think you are reaching just a bit on your old tongue translations.  I'm not sure whether this derails your line of reasoning, but regarding Asha'man and the defensive or protective aspect of the name: Mat's spear is called an &quot;ashandarei.&quot;  Now we know that Darei is &quot;spear&quot; obviously (Far Dareis Mai; Cor Darei -respectively: Of the Spear Maidens[literally]; Night Spears), and Mat's memories teach him how to use the spear, which from most descriptions seems to be like a quaterstaff, with a defensive aspect that most spears lack.  Unlike a sword, a spear is completely a thrusting, stabbing weapon, with no real parrying function in the design.  The only defensive aspect of a spear is its length.  Although we don't know what the translation of ashandarei means, given the similarity to asha'man, I had always assumed it meant something like &quot;guardian spear&quot; or &quot;defensive spear.&quot;  Now maybe, Asha'man having a positive, altruistic and benevolent connotation, all that stuff about championing only just causes, and protecting the innocent and never giving up, is in the &quot;-man&quot; suffix, which I think would still validate this theory.  I'm just curious as to how &quot;aman&quot; became &quot;dragon.&quot;<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


created: 2005-02-06 21:00:25
subject: <b>Interesting theory</b>
body:
I agree with most of your theory. The only part I disagree with is when you say 'Aman' means weapon.<br /><br />Lets look at a few examples<br />Asha'man - lets add an extra apostrophe for emphasis,<br />          Ash'a'man<br />Ashandarei - lets make it Ash'an'darei for emphasis.<br />What is the connection? we have A'man (emphasis), Ash'a'man, and Ash'an'darei. The connection between them is that Ash seems to indicate weapon or sword, while a'man seems to be connected to guardian or protector.<br /><br />This means that Ash'a'man would translate to weapon of the protector, or something like that. This seems suitable, as it could be read (using translation) as weapon of the dragon, just like siswai'aman means spears of the dragon.<br /><br />This seems more suitable, calling LTT the guardian. It also leads to an interesting symbolism, as the 'dragon' is a serpent, and the WT has the serpent biting its own tail. Translating again, it becomes the guardian that bites its own tail - a fitting symbolism for the WT, which is supposed to be guarding the world, but is instead fighting within itself.<br /><br />You suggest A'man = &quot;The Weapon&quot;, but I suggest A'man = &quot;The Guardian&quot;. This creates a more fitting symbol.<br /><br />Other than that, great theory.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Asmodean is alive and posing as Sammael!<br /><br />Sammael <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sammy.gif" border="0" /> is Sparticus.<br /><br />No, I'm Sparticus! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /> = <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />I'm Herid Fel Reborn!!!!! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shy.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-02-06 22:08:42
subject: <b>You give RJ way too much credit.</b>
body:
You hypothesis about the root of &quot;Dragon&quot; is riddled with proof that makes no linguistic sense.<br /><br />Look to past theories about how hopelessly wrong RJ has gotten the whole languages thing.  Look at past theories involving languaes in the WOT universe and you'll see that RJ simply does not understand how languages change and evolve.  Instead, he's barrowed the classic DnD &quot;everyone speaks common tongue&quot; trick.  I don't have time to really explain it to you, but read a linguistic treatise summary and you'll see that languages are constantly changing and growing.  Look at how many different languages are spoken in Europe.  You see that languages borrow and mix with one another so much that they become new languages, in only a few hundred years time.  (Look for example at Danish, German, and Dutch all different spoken and written languages all within about a 100 mile radius).  <br /><br />I am amused at RJ's attempt to explain that the common tongue of rand land is a vulgar version of the old tongue, that's why the fosaken can speak it without an accent no problem.  This is the explanation of a guy who doesn't speak another language fluently, or who doesn't even understand the basics of how languages change and grow over time.  ESPECIALLY after 3000 years.  RJ tried to explain it like a person speaking Ancient Latin would be able to speak Italian, French and Spanish no problem without an accent, and that is simply rediculous. They may be able to READ those languages but speaking, intonation, etc? lol I don't think so. Oh and I love the Seanchan and Aiel, and Randlanders all speak the common tongue as well, just with different accents.  Groups of people like the seanchan would change their language so dramatically in just 1000 years time that there is little likelihood that all but a few words would be evenly remotely still based on the root language.  Wake up!  They would be speaking different languages after being separated by a massive ocean for 1000 years.<br /><br />And don't give me the old &quot;The printing press survived the breaking&quot; so that kept the languages conformed.  If that's true, then why did the new tongue ever supplant the old tongue at all?  All the books were written in the old tongue, so wouldn't that keep the old language in circulation?<br /><br />Seriously go to RJ's interviews and read his explanations on why the different people can still understand each other.  He just throws everything he possibly can out there hoping people don't realize he has no idea what he's talking about.<br /><br />He's lazy.  He's made up a bunch of &quot;Old tongue&quot; words, and thinks that he's made up a bunch or rules but its all bunk.  Its funny because if you do know some other languages you'll see that RJ just steals words he thinks sound cool and twists them a bit to make it sound like he's creating a whole language.  Example Aan'allien - As the Aiel call Lan.  Aan = man or very similar &quot;allien&quot; (sp) or whatever RJ calls him is stolen from German &quot;allein&quot; = alone.<br /><br />Yes this is where i bring out the Tolkien card.  REALLY creating a new language for each ethnic group, that is engrossing fantasy.  Ok so not every writer is an Linguist, so you pull a Tad Williams and take a Eurpean map and ethnic distribution, skew it a bit, and create your fantasy world.  (See Memory, Sorrow and Thorn series for a prime example)  At least Tad William's ethnic and linguistical proportions make sense, not like WoT at all.  I'm an Aiel, and I understand the Seanchan ... why?<br /><br />You're wondering if I would prefer RJ to make up new languages for each group in his books?  Yes i would.  And I would gladly wait two or three more years between books for a more realistic world.  If he took more time between books maybe book 10 wouldn't have been the disaster that we all know it was.  These shortcuts of Mat speaking the old tongue, or Rand &quot;knowing&quot; the old tongue gets old.  Why don't they need to simply learn the other languages that should be present (or be rich enough to hire a translator), like anybody that traveled in the middle ages had to do.<br /><br />So to be brief, your in depth analysis doesn't make sense b/c Robert Jordan's language scheme makes no sense.  RJ used &quot;Dragon&quot; for his hero because it sounds cool.  That's all I expect out of him.  Good story by him otherwise.<br /><br />Torin<br />


created: 2005-02-07 01:16:05
subject: <b>To Torin the Chosen</b>
body:
I don't know if the &quot;Chosen&quot; part of your name has significance from another series, but in this one, it generally means that you see yourself as belonging to a a select group of the individuals generally considered the most absolutely evil in the world.  And your post above proves it.  The series is lacking because the linguistics are not scientifically established?  You'd prefer a five year wait between books for a linguistically accurate world?  People who were around for the start of the series would be DEAD by the time the 12th book came out!  WE haven't sold our souls to the Dark One in exchange for immortality, so we can't wait the sixty years it would take to write 12 books under your system.  <br /><br />Now, as for the language deal, you say &quot;Look at Europe.&quot;  As if Europe had anything to do with the world of WoT.  There are no major geographical barriers in WoT as there were in Europe, and there were never really any Dark Ages, despite the upheaval of the 100 years War and Trolloc Wars.  In addition, you have as the dominant force in a society, a group of conservative, anti-change women with lifetimes that are five to six times a normal person's, many of whom dedicate their lives to study.  The 3,000 year language issue isn't nearly as odd as a dozen countries that have lasted for 1,000 years with no major changes in boundaries or territory or societal upheavals.  The idea of a lingual shift occurring during the Breaking is entirely possible, as civilization had to be built up from scratch, but there is nothing separating any single nation from any other except distance.  Traders would have kept all parts of the world in constant touch with one another, hence the fairly identical culture across the wetlands.  The Seanchan were conquered by people from this same culture 1,000 years ago, so it is little suprise that they are understandable by modern WoT people.  The Aiel's primary entertainment (gleemen) and source of literature is the wetlands, so their maintaining the same language is not suprising at all.<br /><br />As for Tolkien, maybe he was a genius or a great linguist, but his characterization is laughably flawed next to Jordan's.  It is hardly suprising that LotR only became popular after the advent of television lowered everyone's narrative standards.  The plot is so badly paced that enormous chunks can be eliminated in a movie adaptation and suprise fans when they re-read the book because it turns out the story is just fine without them.  Quick, without refering to specific events, contrast the characters of Merry and Pippin, or Eomer and Faramir.  You can't.  As admirable as Tolkien's world-building is, there is no complexity of motivations, no depth and no humanity in his actual writing.  The best parts of his story are the parts deliberatly written as epics or as historical summations.  Tolkien's conversations and depictions of emotions are laughable.  So some minor flaws in the linguistic depicitons of WoT, if in fact these flaws exist, are well worth the superior writing.  Also, if you want to talk realistic, how about a battle that actually takes place like a real battle, without the tide being turned by some miraculous eucatastrophe [Tolkien relied on deus ex machina so much, he had a TERM for it!] that makes everything turn out well.  And why do people from different SPECIES all have a common tongue in Middle-Earth?  A race of non-humans lives in an isolated, barren country walled off behind a rectangular mountain range [more realism], has no peaceful contact with humans, but speaks the same language so that people from the Shire (another realtively isolated area) can understand their conversations).  And how about Tolkien's belief that different species can reproduce with one another?  We share 99% of a chimpanzee's genes and can't breed with them, but humans and elves can pop out babies no sweat.  What ever RJ gives up to JRRT on the changes of language, he gets back tenfold on every other area.  <br />Rand and Mat know the old tongue, as a characterization issue.  It is an oddity that sets them apart from other people and helps force them into roles they would never have imagined themselves in.  See unlike in LotR, the simple country folk from an isolated pastoral setting CAN'T win as themselves, they need to go through major changes and it has an effect.  They won't go home to the Two Rivers and be just enough heros to impress the locals and get the girl, while still being able to take their old lives and live happily ever after, with a boat trip to Happyland to look forward to when they get bored.  There is no all-knowing authority figure to explain their roles (only flawed, frequently mistaken mentors like Moiraine and Thom), and the Dark One isn't dumb enough to set himself for the fall by tying his life to an easily stolen Ring.  <br /><br />Comparing aspects of LotR to WoT is s pointless exercise, as each is excellent, and even revolutionary in its own way.  It is fair to say that without LotR there would be no WoT, but to argue that it is superior is a whole different ball of wax.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


created: 2005-02-07 02:08:46
subject: <b>*shrugs* Why not?</b>
body:
It fits all available facts and I like the symbolism. However, since RJ is NEVER gonna put that much historical detail into his books ... we shall never know. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/frown.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">i have severed all my former allegiances to The Forsaken Who Shall Not Be Named Any More Because She Was Dumb Enough To Get Captured (TFWSNBNAMBSWDETGC).<br /><br />sigh. now i must find a new forsaken to root for.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-02-07 05:25:19
subject: <b>Educating Cannoli</b>
body:
Cannoli<br /><br />&quot;&quot;&quot;I don't know if the &quot;Chosen&quot; part of your name has significance from another series, but in this one, it generally means that you see yourself as belonging to a a select group of the individuals generally considered the most absolutely evil in the world. And your post above proves it.&quot;&quot;&quot;&quot; <br /><br />Brilliant Analysis.  Anyone else get the feeling that mentioning to Cannoli that RJ could do better in an area was like telling a Born Again Christian that Jesus didn't really exist?  He's an author Cannoli, he is not anything else.  Judging by how many posts you have Cannoli, you do not really DO much besides WoT.  I know that you may not understand this... but take a step back and breath.  -I was making a critique of RJ's writing style.- GASP!  Take it as such, I wansn't trying to destroy your apparent religion.<br /><br /><br />&quot;&quot;&quot;&quot;You'd prefer a five year wait between books for a linguistically accurate world? People who were around for the start of the series would be DEAD by the time the 12th book came out!&quot;&quot;&quot;&quot;<br /><br />I wouldn't mind more attention in RJ's style towards linguistics, but he doesn't really have the education for it so it won't happen.  I will admit it would be nice to see him do some more work in all areas before his next book, in all ways, refer to book 10 for 600+ pages of reasons that he should slow it down and take more time with his novels.  I'd much rather wait 4 years for the next book than to read another Crossroads of Twighlight in 6 months.<br /><br />&quot;&quot;&quot;WE haven't sold our souls to the Dark One in exchange for immortality, so we can't wait the sixty years it would take to write 12 books under your system.&quot;&quot;&quot;&quot;<br /><br />Again, sounds like a deeply held religion to me.  These are fantasy books and I was making a critique. <br /><br />&quot;&quot;&quot;&quot;Now, as for the language deal, you say &quot;Look at Europe.&quot; As if Europe had anything to do with the world of WoT. There are no major geographical barriers in WoT as there were in Europe, and there were never really any Dark Ages, despite the upheaval of the 100 years War and Trolloc Wars. &quot;&quot;&quot;&quot;<br /><br />I must ask... have you ever been to Europe?  I lived there for 2 years.  The 100 mile radius that I mentioned where 3 different languages developed is completely Flat. (Get out an atlas and look at the topography of Norther Germany, Denmark, and the Netherlands.  Those languages primarily come from middle old german and developed as distinct languages in only the course of 300-400 years.  A couple centuries and you have 3 languages from 1 main language, and there are no physical barriers between these countries.  There are countless other examples accross the world of languages developing quickly on their own, especially in a middle age type setting.  Please do some research on this before you authoritatively speak on it.<br /><br /><br />&quot;&quot;&quot;&quot;The idea of a lingual shift occurring during the Breaking is entirely possible, as civilization had to be built up from scratch, but there is nothing separating any single nation from any other except distance.&quot;&quot;&quot;&quot;<br /><br />I can't believe that I need to explain to a Jordanite when the &quot;shift&quot; in languages occured.  It was sometimes AFTER the trolloc wars and before Hawkwings time that the language shifted, which makes no sense whatsoever.  Remember Matt speaking the old tongue?  So it did NOT occur during the breaking, which in reality is the only time it WOULD even a lick of sense.<br /><br />At this point I must go to Jordan himself... http://www.tor.com/jordan/questions.html<br />Please read Q 14 as it shows how hopelessly muddled RJ's thinking is on languages.<br /><br />I love his Aginor/Balthamel argument.  When you can't explain it, say it was magic!<br />The real weakness of his knowledge is shown here...<br />&quot;&quot;&quot;&quot;&quot;I've heard the analogy used of a well-educated, highly intelligent citizen of ancient Rome needing to learn modern Italian. It would hardly be a slam-dunk, but he or she would have the roots of the language already. In the case of the Forsaken, the task is actually easier than that of the ancient Roman, since modern Italian is a more complex language than Latin, while the Old Tongue, as I have said time and again, is more complex and nuanced than the language of &quot;today.&quot;&quot;&quot;&quot;<br /><br />RJ saying &quot;I've heard the analogy&quot; = I think so because I really have no idea.  As I've stated, and Ancient Roman could possibly READ some Italian, but since accents and intonation changes within years, it is rediculous to think that a Roman Citizen of 200 AD could speak flawless modern italian in a few days, even if modern Italian were more &quot;complex&quot; as RJ states.  The forsaken spoke it within hours of waking up apparently.  LOL!  Languages change and develope in a matter of years, ESPECIALLY if there is great social upheaval as the Breaking.<br /><br />&quot;&quot;&quot;&quot;Traders would have kept all parts of the world in constant touch with one another, hence the fairly identical culture across the wetlands.&quot;&quot;&quot;&quot;<br /><br />There were traders in Northern Germany from 1200-1600.  By your logic these traders would have kept old middle german together, but they did a crappy job if in only 400 years time 3 distinct languages developed in a 100 mile radius.<br /><br /><br />&quot;&quot;&quot;&quot;The Seanchan were conquered by people from this same culture 1,000 years ago, so it is little suprise that they are understandable by modern WoT people.&quot;&quot;&quot;&quot;<br /><br />A language would not develop on its own after 1,000 of no contact with another culture? Except for a different accent?!  Again, you need to do some basic research on how languages develope, or more appropraitely, look at an atlas.  <br /><br />&quot;&quot;&quot;&quot;As for Tolkien, maybe he was a genius or a great linguist, but his characterization is laughably flawed next to Jordan's. It is hardly suprising that LotR only became popular after the advent of television lowered everyone's narrative standards.&quot;&quot;&quot;&quot;&quot;<br /><br />Attacking Tolkien?  I'm not trying to supplant your Diety Cannolli, both authors have their strong and weak points, I was just pointing out that Tolkien and other authors like Williams do quite a bit more research into languages than Jordan.  For more sophisticated readers with a broader exposure to history and culture, it is a welcome change to know that our author has done more extensive research.  Sometimes I enjoy Jordan, sometimes I enjoy Tolkien, sometimes I enjoy Hemmingway.  The idea is to broaden your range.  Please though... do not discount Tolkien's importance or his impact.  Without him RJ would still be someone's pysichist cranking out formula's rather than fiction.<br /><br /><br />&quot;&quot;&quot;&quot;some minor flaws in the linguistic depicitons of WoT, if in fact these flaws exist, are well worth the superior writing.&quot;&quot;&quot;&quot;&quot;<br /><br />*Chuckle* &quot;if in fact they exist&quot;  Was probably my favorite line of yours Jordanite.  RJ CAN DO NO WRONG!  He is infallible and a GOD!<br /><br />****A race of non-humans lives in an isolated, barren country walled off behind a rectangular mountain range [more realism]**** <br /><br />Yeah kinda like the Spine of the World running North South and Mountains of Doom running east west, creating a nice square for randland.<br /><br /><br />&quot;&quot;&quot;&quot;What ever RJ gives up to JRRT on the changes of language, he gets back tenfold on every other area.&quot;&quot;&quot;&quot;<br /><br />Brilliant analysis. Why can't both author's be good again? some strong in some areas, other's stronger different ones?  The topic was who did a better job with languages.  Why does it have to be Jordan v. Tolkein?<br /><br /><br />&quot;&quot;&quot;&quot;Dark One isn't dumb enough to set himself for the fall by tying his life to an easily stolen Ring.&quot;&quot;&quot;&quot;<br /><br />Remember, back to reality here.  There is no Dark One or One Ring. I was making a comparison between writing syles. I know, shocking to know that there is no Last Battle.  And you've been trying to learn how to channel in real life all this time for NOTHING.<br /><br />&quot;&quot;&quot;&quot;It is fair to say that without LotR there would be no WoT, but to argue that it is superior is a whole different ball of wax.&quot;&quot;&quot;&quot;<br /><br />Again, I never tried to argue which was superior, only pointing out a difference in writing styles because that was the topic.  You on the other hand were ready for anyone to dare you that anybody could do anything better than RJ.  He's an author, nothing more.<br /><br />Torin


created: 2005-02-07 05:53:59
subject: <b>Torin, calm down</b>
body:
I thought the bits about Chosen made it clear that the post was intended to be taken lightly.  I'm not saying worchip the ground Jordan walks on, I'm just saying don't go trashing him by holding his writing next to other authors, all of whom have flaws of their own.  And while Jordan is simply a writer, he doesn't try to be a linguist, as he never puts out alphabets or lists roots and prefixes and all that stuff.  Tolkien, on the other hand is a linguist and an inventor, but tries to pass himself off as a narrative fiction writer.  This is however, a WoT site.  Some guy was having fun with a theory about names in the old tongue, and you go bringing in Tolkien and complaining about the accurracy of the series.<br /><br />Come on.  We all know that 98% off these theories have no way of being substantiated in the text - they are ways for fans of the series to reinforce their beliefs and opinions and make it theirs in an individual way.  We know there is no WoT (sorry Lord Jordan, I have to say that to the unbelievers - I'll sing Dance with Jack o the Shadows five times for pennance), but we make up these BS theories to help flesh it out and participate in the experience in our own way.  And I am far from the most numerous poster.  You may notice the dates of my posts come in bunches from when I am working an overnight shift at my job, on slow days.  You don't know my circumstances, so passing judgements on how I live my life and spend my time is a bit premature.  It's all just for FUN.  And you're right about the language stuff, but how do explain Russian being spread over such a wide area, while German, Danish and Dutch could fit in one of the Principalities of medieval Russia?  I'm not being snotty, just asking out of genuine historical interest.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


created: 2005-02-07 11:02:28
subject: <b>Languages of Russia</b>
body:
First Russia is actually empire not real nation or peoples of Russia speak at least 150 different languages which belong at least 4 different language families: Indo-European, Altaic, Uralic and Caucasian ones.<br />


created: 2005-02-07 11:48:44
subject: <b>&quot;Dragon. Not lizzard. I don't do the tongue thing.&quot; (C) &quot;Mulan&quot;</b>
body:
Here is what I disagree about:<br /><br />&quot;Also all the people seeing the Banner for first time, do not associate it with any particular fabulous creature, they just see a strange serpent with legs in it. &quot;<br /><br />If we agree that our world is one of the Ages then you don't have a valid point here. Our world doesn't have dragons as well, yet all cultures around the world have some myth or tales about them. And people surely will recognize the image of dragon in a heartbeat.<br /><br /><br /><br />&quot;But this doesn't indicate that the Old Tongue word &quot;aman&quot; meant a &quot;dragon&quot;. <br /><br />Again, it's not true. We saw in the Rand's visions that Aiel were called &quot;Dragon's people&quot;. Even if you think that the Rings somehow transalted all the words to English that also means the name of Aiel would be translated as &quot;Defender's people&quot; or such. I personally think that the Rings were &quot;broadcasting&quot; directly to the brain the images, <br />feelings and MEANING of the words. Rand knew what dragons look like and that exactly what the Rings translated to him.<br /><br /><br />&quot;The Dragon's Banner was some completely different thing. It symbolized the Serpent of the Wheel of Time with some attributes of Light Rising. The myth about beasts called &quot;dragons&quot; was first created by ignorant people of the late Third Age. &quot; <br /><br />Again, disagree. Wheel of Time represented by a Serpent that eats his tail (in circlur form). The Dragon on the Banner - not. I don't think during War of Power people would create a banner for his leader that represented BROKEN WHEEL OF TIME (not circular one), otherwise the same thing Ishamael was proposing from the beginning!


created: 2005-02-07 22:58:12
subject: <b>A Little Perspective</b>
body:
Torin,<br />First of all, Cannoli is right - you should not try to compare Tolkien to Jordan in one area, like linguistics. Each author has his strengths and weaknesses. One of Jordan's 'weaknesses' is that he did not try to invent a language for each people.<br /><br />Personally, I think that it would make it difficult to read if languages kept changing as the characters moved around the continent. Jordan includes what is necessary to make the world believable to the common reader. He is not writing for the master linguists.<br /><br />Also, it is not all that unbelievable that the language has not changed dramatically, as there are forces in play that maintain the status quo. The White Tower, the Whitecloaks, the various armies, constant communication between rulers, etc.<br /><br />In the real world, there were already many languages, and each changed as other languages influenced them. In WoT, 3000 years ago there was one language, and one only. Over the years, words were simplified and in some cases dropped as they fell into disuse, but the 'new tongue' seems to have been completely formed before Artur Hawkwing, and after the fall of Manetheren.<br /><br />Here is my reading of the sequence: during the breaking, the world was in upheaval, but memory of AoL was still strong, so the language didn't change. Many records were destroyed during the Trolloc Wars, and as a result, the old tongue fell into disuse as fewer people felt the need to learn it. Artur Hawkwing, then conquered all of the 'randland' area, and he used the new tongue, and it caught on (or more likely everyone was forced to speak it).<br /><br />All new records and books are then written in the new tongue, old books are translated, and gleemen introduce the language to the Aiel. Hawkwing's army conquered Seanchan and similarly forced them to speak the new tongue. The language spread to the Sea folk as they had to deal with the randlanders. So now all of the peoples speak the new tongue, with only historians and nobles learning the old tongue.<br /><br />Also, not all languages change with time. Take english - 500 years ago, english was more formal, but otherwise it has not changed that much, except with new words added, like 'computer' and 'keyboard'. It takes some work to understand shakespeare, yet it can be done, without too much trouble.<br />In other words, it is not that bad a concept that the language is the same, when you look at the timeline.<br /><br />The real question is whether the Sharans speak the same languages, or if they have a completely different language.<br /><br />Cannoli,<br />Torin was giving some criticism of Jordan's writing. He is free to do so, and you have the right to disagree. There is no need to attack Tolkien in response. Both Tolkien and Jordan are good writers. Also, I agree on one point - there should have been SOME changes to the language over time, so various words have slightly different pronunciations (think Tomato), or even a significant change (maybe Tomato is now called Totama in Seanchan? It isn't out of the bounds of possibility).<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Asmodean is alive and posing as Sammael!<br /><br />Sammael <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sammy.gif" border="0" /> is Sparticus.<br /><br />No, I'm Sparticus! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /> = <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />I'm Herid Fel Reborn!!!!! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shy.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-02-08 06:16:51
subject: <b>Responses</b>
body:
Thank You for all the responses to this little theory of mine. I'm glad you found it interesting.<br /><br />As I see, the issue with the reason for the Wheel's serpent to be presented with legs and without biting it's tail is a hole in my theory. Until now I can find no explanation for the legs. The straith-walking state of the serpent could be an expression of more optimistic view about the nature of Time, an optimism that the Age of Legends would allow: they can have the feeling that the progress to a better society is something natural and that the Serpent is now decisively stepping into a better and better times and that the Light's forces fight for re-establishing of this old lucky days of evident progress. Later people saw that the bitter reality is that Time is cyclical including returning to worse times even after the best possible progress, they could have no more the illusions of the belle epoche and the serpent will appear only in the form of the bitting it's own tail. So even if the serpent biting it's own tail was a variation of the serpent symbol already in the AoL, only beginning with the Breaking it gave the reasons to become the only possible symbol.<br /><br />Symbols of the same thing have sometime different versions, and straght Serpent with legs can be another forgotten version of the current Serpent. I know there is no information to proof it, and actually I took the Wheel-meaning of the Serpent, because it is the only known meaning in WoTworld of the Serpent symbol and because it fits too much with the symbolisc Aes Sedai are often symbolizing themselves.<br /><br /><br />to Paetram:<br />The idea about bestiary looks good, but we haven't information about existence of such bestiaries in the Age of Legend. Bestiaries are best suitable to societies of medieval type with developed heraldics, that are common in the third Age but that is not the case with the Age of Legends. In the thirs Age there are pictures of unnamed fabulous animals, so it's possible that such would exist also in the Age of legends. But even in this case I would suggest that Dragon's Banner was not an well-known kind of bestia but a compound creature created specially for the Dragon and unifying symbols for different aspects of LTT's post and reputation: mane and red color as dawn symbols, walking posirtion as symbol of the activity of Light's forces, Serpent as assotiation bot with Aes Sedai and with the Wheel meaning something like &quot;our side is the side of the whole world under Aes Sedai guidance&quot;.<br /><br />to Cannoli:<br />Now I also will find the &quot;Defender&quot; meaning as more possible than &quot;Weapon&quot;. I supposeed &quot;weapon&quot; because of the words &quot;manshima&quot; (=sword) and &quot;mandarb&quot; (=blade), and for both I saw little common with &quot;defense&quot; (in this case &quot;ashaman&quot; would mean &quot;armed guardian&quot;, and sop it would very well match with current asha'man signs - the sword and the dragon). But having in mind that AoL had no warfare at all, the most possible way to designate &quot;weapons&quot; for them would be something derivative from the word for &quot;defence&quot;.<br /><br />And about how &quot;aman&quot; became &quot;dragon&quot;, I believe it happened only in the late third Age after Dragon's banner appeared on Tear Stone. In these times the Old-Tongue word &quot;man&quot; was already obsolete and forgotten, because third-agers needed much more developed and differenciated terminology about weaponry and warfare, and the word &quot;aman&quot; was nothing else but meaningless name of a person. People just needed an word for calling the creature on the Dragon's Banner, and calling it &quot;a dragon&quot; was a colloquial form of calling it &quot;Dragon's beast&quot;.<br /><br />to Aielyn:<br />&quot;asha&quot; could mean &quot;sword&quot;, but I think Cannoli's explanation looks more likely. But if &quot;a'man&quot; is a &quot;serpent&quot; than what would mean &quot;manshima&quot;? &quot;Dragon's iron&quot;? Or what will mean &quot;mandarb&quot;? The root &quot;-man-&quot; is too directly assotiated with weaponry (especially swords, but swords are weapons par excellence for that time) and defense. Until year 999NE I suggest the serpent was just a forgotten sigil of a man called Aman, but was not linguistically assotiated with the Serpent.<br /><br />to Torin:<br />I see, we have read similar books about linguistics, and I agree that Jordan's explanations about the lack of change of New Tongue are not linguistically acceptable. What I strongly disagree with You is, that it would mean he is &quot;lazy&quot; in thinking through details of his languauge and that he would not include the base of some morphology and etymology in it. You can call it unsufficient or linguistically erroneous or everything else You want, but why the heck will this mean that Jordan haven't developed the basics of his language? While linguistical changes are not something obvious and can be stated only after comparing a lot of historical and lexicographic material (well Jordan just hasn't read a linguistic treatise), the common grammatical and ethimological dependencies are something everyone could create a logical system if he puts enough work and knowledge of few languages. Jordan definitely worked on his languages for to make it realistic. People who haven't read linguistic treatises, even if knowing several languages, can usually not find anything non-realistic, so at this lower level Jordan's construct works. And everything I used for my analysis here were things I believe Jordan would take in mind.<br /><br />to Skeeve:<br />Apparently I was not clear enough when speaking about the Dragon image of our Age and of Third and Fourth Ages. Now, people from the Third Age, who have no &quot;dragon&quot; concept were the first to call the animal with the name &quot;aman&quot; because of the assotiation with the messiah of the Age. People of the Fourth Age had this word as borrowing and they have the animal called &quot;aman&quot; and the man called Aman connected in their most important story. Ages after the Fourth ages, when legends fade to myth, our current Age comes, and we have from previous Ages the figure of an animal called by us &quot;dragon&quot; and usually connected with very important metaphysical and mythological events. (Myths that the third Age hasn't). These myths like all myths in WoT universe are twisted residues from old stories. These myths of our time are residue from the events with the Dragon Reborn from the end of the third Age.<br /><br />Our word &quot;dragon&quot; is a manner we translate the fourth-age word &quot;aman&quot;. The story about Rand that we read in the books, was obviously written in the Fourth Age, after Rand did what he has to do in the Last Battle. (Because stories are written after they are finished). It was written not in english, but rather in New Tongue. In the fourth Age &quot;aman&quot; already meant &quot;a dragon&quot;, but in the whole third age until year 999NE it had no meaning except a name of a man. The english translator of Rand's story puts &quot;Dragon&quot; even in times when nobody assotiated the Dragon Reborn with &quot;a dragon&quot;. Translation twist.<br /><br />In Old Language the word Aman had meaning. But Rand in Rhuidean would not translate it into this meaning because he is thinking about Aman as about a personal name. So now, when we speak e.g. about Bush we don't think about certain shrub, even if we know that &quot;bush&quot; means &quot;shrub&quot;. So Rand doesn't translate the name Aman even if he knows the Old Tongue meaning, because in this moment he is thinking only about a name.


created: 2005-02-08 13:23:32
subject: <b>Enjoyable Theory</b>
body:
This is an enjoyable theory &amp; well thought out, even though it is more speculation than theory.  I'm going to vote against it just on the lack of real evidence.


created: 2005-02-08 15:55:14
subject: <b>some points on the discussion of the lord of the rings</b>
body:
i really shouldn't discuss LOTR here, but Sauron's production of the one ring was NOT a big and silly mistake and nor was it easy to remove from him. The ring itself was not a weakness. Through it he laid-low the mountain strongholds of the dwarfs and corrupted the proud kings of men. He created it to bend the evles to his will, because he desired to master their power. Morgoth tried to achieve this through torture and corruption, but his methods and creations were severly weakened by the process, so Sauron was forced to try a different method. His plan only failed because he never got his hands on the Elven rings, and even without his plan coming to fruition, he nearly succeeded anyway and it was only through his arrogance that he was defeated.He inncinerated Gil-Galad and killed Elendil without pausing for breath and they are the two mightyest warriors of their respective races. it took narsil, a blade forged by Telchar in the hands of the decendents of Earendil and Luthien and the Maiar to cut Saurons finger, but the chance for this only came about through Sauron's underestimattion of an unbeaten foe.<br /><br />that point aside i think this is a great theory, and to all those who debate as to whether Jordan thought this deeply about his names, he fooled us all with the ishy/ ba'alzamon trick didn't he <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> let the speedbart ride again upon the winds of time <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Made the second post on the new WoTMB2 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-02-09 19:43:31
subject: <b>Not stupid for Sauron, stupid for author</b>
body:
Near omnipotent sorceror-god-thing can be killed if you break his Ring.  I realize it's a whole metaphor about power and corruption, but that works better as a fable or mythological story, which is what Tolkein writes.  Jordan writes novels, Tolkien makes up worlds and tells you what it going on in them.  It's like he's watching from a mile off, so all the characters look very tiny, and are hard to tell apart.  Jordan is in their heads and they have more complex motivations.  We're not talking apples and oranges, we're talking roast chicken and oranges.  This is why I took what some might see as an anti-Tolkein attitude: Yet another person was bringing up another author on a WoT site to trash Jordan's writing, which, while I have my own complaints am getting a little tired of seeing.  Tolkien likes it clean and neat, and only languages are complex.  As I and most people am not linguists, I think we prefer our characters to be complex, and our languages simple.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


created: 2005-02-10 17:28:44
subject: <b>I liked it.</b>
body:
I liked it and thought you showed allot of effort.  You showed you have knowledge in that area, and you presented a theory that explained or expounded some details.<br /><br />I really liked all the comments above the best<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />I like both authors.  They both have thier strong points and weaknesses.  But to have the WoT, tLotR had to come first.<br /><br />Just something I would like to point out.  I do not think there ever has been a &quot;Dragon&quot; that breath fire and fits the image that pops into our heads when we either hear or read the word.<br /><br />Why couldn't some AoL writer or artise have made it up.  LTT liked it and was arrogant &amp; bad enough to call himself the Dragon.<br /><br />The only caveat would be why the aiel called them selves the people of the dragon.


created: 2005-02-10 19:38:06
subject: <b>The Aiel are people of the Dragon...</b>
body:
because they were given special status and/or protection by the Aes Sedai, and were some sort of personal servants to them.  The Dragon was the head of the Aes Sedai, and according to the BWB, the Aes Sedai's protection of the Dai'shain Aiel especially during the War of the Shadow, led people to call them The People of the Dragon.  You may recall in the memory ter'angreal in Rhuidean, Rand's ancestor at the start of the Breaking is not enamoured of the name.  It's another one of RJ's miscommunication distortions.  I don't believe it has anything to do with the etymology of the name, merely a case of mistaken association with the man called 'Dragon.'  <br /><br />Incidentally, my theory on the source of the name: STRICTLY TO APPEAL TO REAL WORLD READERS.  After all, there are English language puns, made with Old Tongue words and so on.  Dragon, in the Real World is a word with connotations of both power and menace, and that is what the Dragon Reborn is supposed to inspire.  It is actually a rather brilliant choice.  When you're reading, for instance, Dune with its Kwitzak Haderach or whatever the h#ll their prophecied dangerous messiah is called, the name just doesn't convey to the readers the same implications the name has for the Bene Gesserit.  We can't really understand the people of WoT through their experiences, at least not before we have read half a dozen books and are completely immersed in the mentality, but in the first book a prophecied character who is supposed to destroy the world, and is it's only hope for salvation needs a creepy name like &quot;Dragon.&quot;<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


created: 2005-02-11 19:32:12
subject: <b>Not so much...</b>
body:
Well, I like your theory about &quot;the weapon&quot;. I admire it becasue while it's something I'd start, I'd never have the time to finish it, and the research would bore me.<br /><br />However- The matter of the dragon banner. If this is to represent the Great Serpent in a different incarnation, would it not be connected? This might be something that the Lord of the Dark ascribed to Lews, in hopes that people would recognize the meaning and then brand Lews a darkfriend. You see, the dragon is also the color of fire, that being one of the manifestations of destruction, and it is the Great Serpent- just uncoiled. As the Wheel is broken, the Serpent will straighten, and time will not stop, but become finite. Because time does repeat itself in Randland, things will happen forever. But in a finite universe (the edge of the broken wheel, or the serpents tail), time ends in a huge kaboom. So while time might not stop instantly as Shai'tan breaks the Wheel of Time, it will put a life span on the universe, which has never been the case.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">We rode on the winds of the rising storm,<br />And ran to the sounds of thunder.<br />We danced among the lightning bolts <br />And tore the world asunder.<br /><br />Lews Therin and the Hundred Companions</font><p></p>


created: 2005-02-16 12:05:42
subject: <b>For those commenting on Jordan's supposed lack of linguistics....</b>
body:
I shouldn't need to remind people that every epic written since the Epic of Gilgamesh has followed very similar rules of style and device, among them the concept of no language barriers.<br /><br />How universal would <i>The Odyssey</i> be if Odysseus (or Ulysses, if you prefer) had to have a pack of translators with him to understand all of the various characters he encountered?  Would we remember Dante's trek through hell and purgatory with Vergil and his subsequent journey through paradise if he couldn't understand anyone he saw while there?<br /><br />In short, no one would read <i>The Wheel of Time</i> if we had to spend the entire time waiting for a translator.  In fact, I would consider Jordan to be less of a writer if he did <i>not</i> use one of the oldest, most useful literary devices in the world:  lack of language barriers.<br /><br />If the unrealistic aspect of zero language barriers bothers you then I am truly sorry, but please do not say it is an unacceptable construct.  Every writer since the beginning of time has ignored the reality of language barriers except when it serves a function, and I for one am glad that this author is one of them--language barriers are boring, and usually just get in the way.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Who we were is lost to all men, and life is bitter.&quot;<br />&quot;Expect nothing, and you will not be surprised.&quot;  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-02-18 07:38:37
subject: <b>To Torin</b>
body:
Since I come from the Netherlands, I am severely annoyed by your completely erronous remarks on geography and language of the Low Countries. You say it's flat, and there are no barreers. Since you obviously haven't kept your eyes open very much during your European years, I'll use an American example. The Everglades are totally flat too. Do you think they were easy to traverse? <br />A thousand years ago most of Holland was wetlands, lakes or sea, and large parts of the German North Sea coast were pretty much the same. The barreers were quite as difficult to overcome as, say, the Alps. The Holland you see now - I would assume that you did at least the tourist routine and went to the mills of Kinderdijk - is man-made, rivers which used to be dozens of kilometers broad are now practically canals, and lots of land is below sea level, only kept dry by constant milling. <br />About the languages spoken in these parts of the world, even the Romans, who weren't very interested in any foreign language except Greek, still noted the existence of dozens of different languages in these parts of the world. I'm not even starting about the many languages of Scandinavia and the Slavic languages. Shortly, Europe started out with dozens of languages, some not even Indo-European. As to the difference between German and Dutch, the seperation is generally thought to have occured around 1100, when we became less and less dependent on the Holy Roman Emperors, not just 300 years ago. I'm not even talking about the difference between Danish and German, Denmark has been a seperate state with a relatively strong government since the Dark Ages.<br />There are in fact more isolated places where people are speaking the same language they did more then a millenium ago. The most notable example is Armenia, where people are still able to read sixth century bibles without much difficulty.<br />So next time when you want to pretend to be an expert on some subject, check your fact, and don't just make them up. It never works and you only annoy and offend people. <br />That said, I enjoyed the theory.


created: 2005-06-07 17:16:28
subject: <b>language and change</b>
body:
&quot;Also, not all languages change with time. Take english - 500 years ago, english was more formal, but otherwise it has not changed that much, except with new words added, like 'computer' and 'keyboard'. It takes some work to understand shakespeare, yet it can be done, without too much trouble.<br />In other words, it is not that bad a concept that the language is the same, when you look at the timeline.&quot;<br /><br />Uuummm.....  English has changed dramatically with time.  Over  a mere 1000 years our language has changed so much that the two languages are completely different.<br /><br />&quot;Hw&#230;t! We Gardena in geardagum,<br />&#254;eodcyninga, &#254;rym gefrunon,<br />hu &#240;a &#230;&#254;elingas ellen fremedon.<br />Oft Scyld Scefing scea&#254;ena &#254;reatum,&quot;<br /><br />This is the English of a little over a thousand years ago.  You may notice that it is rather incomprehensible and includes letters not found in modern English.<br /><br />Also, in the past 500 years English has also undergone at least one major change.  It is not apparent in the writing, for that has not changed much except for a more standardized spelling system.  The change was in the vowels.  Speaking to someone from 400-500 years ago would make Shakespearean writings seems as easy to read as Jordan's books.  The vowel system used to be far more regular with far fewer vowels.  Also in the US there are at least two different vowel shifts going on.  Stupid &quot;bayg&quot;. <br /><br />Also, taking a few classes of linguistics would demonstate that language change is innevitable.<br /><br />As for the actual theory.  I was confused.  Severely.  Except on one point.<br /><br />&quot;And there is an OT word &quot;man&quot; or at least a root -man-. We have it in words like asha'man (= guardian, champion), mandarb (=blade), manshima (=sword). So ~man~ in shared meaning would mean either &quot;defence&quot; or &quot;weapon&quot; (rather &quot;weapon&quot; in general than particularly &quot;sword&quot;, because in cases like &quot;ashandarei&quot; describing the particular &quot;sword&quot; features in comparison to other weapons the term &quot;asha&quot; is used instead of &quot;man&quot;,&quot;<br /><br />That part is very sloppy linguistic analysis.  While claiming that mandarb and manshima came from the same root is believable, there is no reason to believe that asha'man came from the same root.  Sure they all have &quot;man&quot; in them.  But in English there is man, manacle, manage, etc. which a quick look through the etymology of each shows they are not related.  It looks fancy and all to compare them, but you need a better reasons.  If I was going to seriously look at the word asha'man in a linguistic sense, I would probably assume two morphemes, one being a verb and the other being probably a &quot;participly&quot; thing somewhat like the English 'er'.  However, there is no way to actually determine what the two morphemes are, as they come in all types.  Suffixes, prefixes, infixes, changes in the noun structure.  There is far too little Old Tongue to actually determine what is going on in a single word.<br /><br />Also, relating the words because of their meaning is really weak.  Sword and blade being related to a word for guardian?  Sorry, that doesn't cut it.  Japanese has two words &quot;kiru&quot;.  One means to cut, the other means to put on clothing (on the  torso).  They may sound alike, but they have nothing to do with each.  Sounding alike is nowhere near good enough.


created: 2005-07-23 20:56:09
subject: <b>Well</b>
body:
I am a real Tolkien junky, just like I am for WoT, and I can read some Elvish, but it just lets me have more to think on as I read the books, it's not really a focus point for the books. I think Torin is getting a little overboard with language aspects when all he is really trying to do, or supposed to be trying to do, is disprove the theory.<br /><br /><br />All in all, great theory.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">The Great Gonzales<br />Captain of the DF Rebellion against Moridin<br />Demandred for Nae'blis!</font><p></p>


created: 2005-09-07 16:13:28
subject: <b>On Linguistics and Views of &quot;Dragons&quot;</b>
body:
Warning this Post will contain Spoiler for Anyone who has not read all the books.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br />In terms of linguistics and the serious changes languages underwent in Europe a few factors have to be looked at.  Most of Europe was under the control of the Roman Empire for a time and all of the lands under that control spoke Latin.  The Roman Empire was around for a very long time, I've no doubt that certain dialects sprung up even during the rule of the Roman Empire, but dialects are not a new language, they are different but still understandable by people who speak a different dialect of that language.<br /><br />When the Roman Empire eventually fell, it fell to invansions by Germanic Tribes, and other tribes as well.  These Invaders spoke completely different languages from Latin.  So with Europe, though it was all unified under one Empire, it was eventually invaded and conquored(sp?) by people who spoke another language.  This then lead to Latin and those other languages mixing together and forming new languages, most likely also based on the particular local dialect of latin in a region as well as which type of tribe conquored(sp?) that area, and the dialect of their root language that tribe spoke.  Hence the vast differences in language in Europe.  Those tribes that conquored(sp?) all those areas weren't very interested in books or scrolls, so most of them didn't survive, leaving no records of the old language around in the majority of cases to keep people's spoken language somewhat close to latin.<br /><br />Another interesting thing to note, someone who speaks French can understand someone who speaks Spanish or Italian, wth a fair deal of difficulty but it can be done, so though they are three seperate languages they are still fairly similar to each other.<br /><br />Now lets look at the World of the Wheel of Time.  During the Age of Legends the Old Tongue as Jordan calls it was universally spoken.  Breaking of the world took place, people saved what books and knowledge they could.  Probably developed dialects of the Old Tongue but didn't stray too far from it thanks in part to the books that were saved.  Who knows how many dialects sprung up.<br /><br />Fast forward to the rise of Hawkings Empire.  Hawking takes over all of what the Aiel refer to as the Wetlands.  Upon establishing his Empire, much like the Romans did Hawking declares that the specific dialect he speaks is the official language of his Empire and that all his subjects must speak it.  Suddenly there is a new common language the New Tongue.  Hawking ruled everything, there were no invaders that spoke a language other than Hawking's New Tongue, the Aiel are certainly potential invaders, but they didn't invade nor would they.  So no chance of corruption to the language through the introduction of another language like in Europe.  So the only corruption to the New Tongue that would then really occur would be the devolution into dialects, which we do in fact see most notably in Illian and Tarabon.  As I said earlier, dialects are not seperate languages and can in fact be understood by other people who speak a different dialect of the same language in some cases with difficulty.<br /><br />Hawking then sends his son across the sea with a large military force.  That force conquores(sp?) the land on the other side of the ocean and sets up the Seanchan Empire.  He like his father sets up a common language, the language he speaks.  The New Tongue then becomes the official language of the Seanchan Empire.  Over the years the accent of the native inhabitants of Seanchan corrupts the New Tongue slightly and they speak it with a great deal of slurring.  When Rand and other Wetlanders first encounter any person from Seanchan the Wetlanders have a great deal of difficulty understanding the slurring speach of the person from Seanchan if they speak at a normal pace.  So the slurring speach from the Seanchan can be viewed as a dialect of the New Tongue that almost boarders on a new language due to the difficulty other speakers of the New Tongue have in understanding them.<br /><br />The Aiel have the Old Tongue, which then devolves into their particular dialect of it, though they seem to have a far greater knowledge of the Old Tongue in their general populace than Wetlanders.  The Aiel also buy books as often as they can.  They let peddlers travel the waste freely and buy whatever books a peddler is carrying, in fact peddlers who plan on going into the waste make it a point to stock up on books.  The Aiel don't have any printing presses, that means that all of the books they have would then be printed in whatever language the Wetlanders speak.  So by necessity the Aiel would have to learn the New Tongue.  It is also interesting to note that the Aiel due have many words that Wetlanders do not have, mostly for things that do not exist in the Wetlands.  However, this can also make an Aiel very difficult for Wetlanders to understand and lead to a dialect of the New Tongue on a similar status with the dialect of the New Tongue spoken in Seanchan.<br /><br />The relationship between the New Tongue spoken in the Wetlands, the Aiel Waste, and the Seanchan could then be seen as being very similar to the relationship between French, Italian, and Spanish, if not quite as extreme in there differences as those three romance languages.<br /><br />Now, if we return to our own world and we look at China, there are many dialects of Chinese spoken in China but not multiple languages spoken there.  Therefore, is Jordan's idea of his entire world speaking dialects of a single language so far fetched given the circumstances of his world, and some real world examples of similar occurences?<br /><br />Now onto the whole Dragon thing, that is the true discussion of this thread.  I think it is a very interesting theory indeed, one that I would say has a great deal of merrit.  There are a few interesting points I would like to bring up.<br /><br />The Dragon is the title of Lews Therrin Telamon as we know it in the Third Age, how it was pronounced in the Old Tongue is anyone's guess.  So the actual world for LTT's title being Aman in the Old Tongue is just as likely as anything else.  As for the Aiel's title as People of the Dragon.  During the War of the Shadow only those Aiel who were servants of LTT, ie Aiel who directly served LTT were called the People of the Dragon.  During the Breaking of the World people began to apply it to all Aiel, hence Rand's ancestor's distaste for the name, he was not an Aiel who had specifically served LTT, so he was not a member of the People of the Dragon, yet people called him that anyway.  That is how the Aiel came to have that title, it was at first for a specific group of Aiel, and they came to apply to all Aiel through association.<br /><br />Now what is interesting to note about dragons are the very different views of dragons in the Western and Eastern worlds.  In the Western World Dragons are seen as destructive beasts that burn farms, kill farm animals, capture princesses, and need to be slain by knights.  Dragons are forces of destruction, not at all viewed with anything approaching hope.  However, even though Dragons are forces of destruction they must be treated with a proper amount of respect, as they are very hard to kill, and so must be handled properly.  In the Eastern World Dragons are seen as animals who bring good luck, and rain.  They are seen as forces of good, they make things grow, and are protectors.  Yet even so if one does not properly honor dragons, they may send too much rain, or too little, and become forces of destruction.  In addition, the Chinese at one time in their history called themselves the People or Children of the Dragon, and the Dragon was the symbol of the Imperial Family.<br /><br />Now lets look at the World of the WoT.  <br /><br />In the Wetlands, Rand, the Dragon Reborn, and Lews Therrin Telamon, the Dragon, are viewed primarily as forces of destruction.  Yes, they will save the world, but they will also break it.  Lews Therrin Telamon is most often called Lews Therrin Kinslayer in the Wetlands remembered more for killing all those he loved in his madness, and beginning the Breaking of the World than for saving the world from the Shadow.  He is primarily remembered as a force of destruction.  <br /><br />Rand, the Dragon Reborn, is feared more as a force of destruction than looked upon with hope as a force of salvation.  Rand is going to break the world again, everyone says so, he can channel the tainted half of the One Power and will eventually go mad.  Even now, if anything bad happens most people will blame Rand for it.  Morgase dissappears from Camelyn, the Dragon Reborn must have killed her.  The Dragonsworn, who Rand has no true connection to ravage the countryside, its all Rand's fault.  Do I need to go on?  The Wetlands see Rand as a force of destruction far more than a means of salvation, yet because he is also their only hope for salvation they treat him with a certain amount of respect to his face.  The Western view of dragons in our world anyone?<br /><br />The Aiel on the other hand, see Rand as the Car'a'carn, the Chief of Chiefs.  They call themselves The People of the Dragon.  When Rand made his speech at the Golden Bowl he made it rain in the Waste.  Before he left the Waste, he created a lake just outside Ruidehaen that was bigger than any other water source any Aiel in the Waste had ever seen.  Rand is supposed to destroy the Aiel, yet a remenant of a remenant will he save.  He brings rain and water to a land where water is one of the most precious commodities.  Is it all that hard to imagine as time goes by for the Aiel to view Rand, the Dragon Reborn in a manner similar to the Eastern view of dragons in our world?<br /><br />If you take the events of the WoT to be some reflection of the events in our own world.  It is entirely possible that as time passes the deeds and views of Rand al'Thor, the Dragon Reborn eventually come to be associated with the creature on his banner.  In the Wetlands the Dragon becomes a force of destruction because of how Rand was viewed there.  And for the Aiel the Dragon becomes a bringer of rain and a benevolent force of nature because of the deeds of Rand al'Thor.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Every night and every morn,<br />Some to misery are born.<br />Every morn and every night,<br />Some are born to sweet delight.<br />Some are born to sweet delight,<br />Some are born to endless night.&quot; - William Blake &quot;Auguries of Innocence&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2005-09-18 00:38:07
subject: <b>no new tongue</b>
body:
Sorry, but ther is no new tongue.  Its English.  Look at the names &quot;Loial&quot; and &quot;Meri.&quot;  they are bot talked about in relation to the words they sound like.  Wouldthat happen if the books had been translated?  You could play the Tolkien card here, and cite that Meriadoc's (Merry) realy name is Kalimac (Kali) and that Kali means gay, or happy in Westron, but I don't think that kind of Tolkienian crap applies here.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>It's not apples and oranges, but no one paying attention could compare these apples without noticing: <br />(a) one is 12 times bigger and <br />(b) both of them are rutabagas.</i></font><p></p>


created: 2005-09-21 07:43:50
subject: <b>Re: no new tongue...</b>
body:
If something is called the old tongue, that by definition means there is a New Tongue, as some other language has to be being spoken, in order to make the old language the Old Tongue.  It might be that the New Tongue is English, it might be that it's not, I can't say.  However, I can say that there must be a New Tongue, because there is an Old Tongue.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Every night and every morn,<br />Some to misery are born.<br />Every morn and every night,<br />Some are born to sweet delight.<br />Some are born to sweet delight,<br />Some are born to endless night.&quot; - William Blake &quot;Auguries of Innocence&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2006-06-05 22:39:27
subject: <b>Just a though</b>
body:
I think it was in the first book when Ishy was talking to Lews say something about for lews didnt embarce his name while he did which makes me think that Lews didnt like the idea of being a Drargon...which doesnt mean that it doesnt mean <br />&quot;Weapon&quot; ect. ect.


created: 2007-05-03 15:40:26
subject: <b>Good Gravy</b>
body:
For anyone trying to discredit Torin's points, you have no ground to stand on.  He is completely correct linguistically speaking.  Human Languages change from use constantly, and there is no way to stop that.  George W. Bush couldn't  have a conversation with George Washington.  The pronunciation, the vernacular, the vocabulary and the context have all changed so much that any communication would be stilted and confusing.  You can argue out of context that all sorts of special cases apply to English, but look anywhere else and you'll find the same changes over time.  Take China for example.  A relatively stable country historically speaking and the language has branched off all over the place.  <br /><br />Now as for what that means about Jordan's writing, my opinion is that its not very significant.  He loses more points for trying to BS his way through explanations than for having everyone speak the same language.<br /><br />As for the theory, I agree with the concept that &quot;Dragon&quot; does not refer directly to some beast, but has taken on that meaning out of context.  Torin's right, though.  Trying to puzzle out what it might actually mean doesn't work linguistically unless you rely on Jordan oversimplifying the old tongue, which is a fair possibility.


created: 2008-05-11 03:27:31
subject: <b>well....</b>
body:
wow. you've helped me connect two previously unrelated things in your post...maybe that should teach me a lesson in gullibility, but i won't let it <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> i won't doubt<br /><br />if AMAN is another word for dragon, maybe AMEN is the word that symbolizes that which the dragon symbolizes:<br />CHANGE<br />amen, SO MOTE IT BE<br />the dragon is the change that HAD to happen to the world both times. both as the breaker of worlds and the breaker of oaths<br /><br />the DRAGON symbolizes change, and a common foe, for both the GROUPS and the INDIVIDUALS<br /><br />think about it...what else personifies the blind destruction and reign that a tyrannical king brings, besides the dragon?<br /><br />and the death of the dragon is the revolution we need every 50 years or whatever. we need the dragon, because we need dragon-slayers<br /><br />i don't think the dragon symbolizes tyrrany or kingdomship. i think it symbolizes change.<br />therefore, AMAN (in greek that means, o my god. no direct connation, just an idiom) in english, it's amen, the WORD, so mote it be. in new english metaphors, the dragon. WE are the spears of the dragon. WE are the riders of the storm. WE are the spears held forward by the storm-gods; the maruts. with their golden chests and their ornaments shining brightly. and their fires from within..like lightnings in the clouds...<br /><br />and all those who see the sun, fear the coming of the storm-gods, cuz it blocks the sun momentarily.<br />but heaven will follow in the wake of the MARUTS, the storm gods<br /><br />they're all symbols<br /><br />see what meaning you, OH prophecied ones of the dragon (of change), find in the artwork of max magnus norman<br /><br />am i allowed to link? http://www.maxmagnusnorman.com<br />(especially look at the ones with dragons. it'll be easiest for you who have read the books to see what the dragon brings; CHANGE / CONFLICT (vishnu, destruction, the dragon, rand), CARE (sustainance, mat, right?), CREATION (perrin, with his hammer, right?!))<br />maybe a silent C...of corruption. which ALL three are fighting against. FIRST the change to destroy the corruption. then the creative power for something new, and finally the care for all of it to sustain this new thing we have created....<br />


created: 2009-07-10 08:39:59
subject: <b>Wow</b>
body:
This is a fantastic theory. I love how 'The Dragon' really is meant to signify 'The Defender' or 'The Weapon.' The logical progression of it drew me in and I couldn't help but nod in agreement.<br /><br />It makes a great deal of sense, considering LTT's role approaching the pending War of Power. <br /><br />Great post, really.


created: 2005-02-07 09:49:59
subject: <b>Symptom before the Cause</b>
body:
My issues are as follows:<br /><br />1 - How can you be sure channelers were generally stronger in the AoL?  <br /><br />The world population was much higher.  You would have a lot more strong channelers even with the same strength distribution. <br /><br />By your theory, the strongest channelers should have appeared after the Bore was drilled but before it was sealed.  However, we know of no such channelers.<br /><br />Next, male channelers after the Breaking do not live long enough to reach their full strength.<br /><br />The AoL Aes Sedai had better training and equipment/ objects of the power.<br /><br />Today's Aes Sedai don't find everybody who is strong.  Certain members of the Kin, Sea Folk and Aiel are just as strong if not stronger than most living Aes Sedai.  Some approach the Forsaken.<br /><br />2 - Does the Thinning affect only the strength of channelers that can be born or does it allow for strength increases for existing channelers?  If the former, then stronger channelers shouldn't be born until the Seals start weakening - which occurs around TEOTW, long years after Nynaeve, Egween, Elayne, Bodewhin and Nicola are born.  Also, how does your theory account for the strength of Alivia?  If the latter, then as the Seals weaken, access to the OP grows.  So as they crumble, existing channelers should get stronger.  We see no evidence of this.  Surely at least one Aes Sedai would have noticed and commented on this.<br /><br /><br />3 - Your theory does not explain how the Thinness occurs in the first place.<br /><br /><br />I like your analysis, but believe that you have mistaken the symptom for the cause.<br /><br /><br />TFK


created: 2005-02-07 10:48:54
subject: <b>Interesting, but</b>
body:
But I'm not convinced, due to what The Fisher King said. If you want to find more evidence for your theory, go check out the FAQ sextion on the 21 level ranking of channelers. [ http://wotmania.net/faqtopic.asp?ID=75 ]<br /><br />Glad to see I'm inspiring more thought on the subject <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Bob L. Sedai (a.k.a. Luge) <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /><br />Fighting off the Taint - <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tinfoilhat.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" />Thanks given to Burr, the ever-helpful theory critic<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />And to Light in the Night, fellow theorist extraordinaire<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Voted Best Screenname 1 (one) years in a row.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-02-07 19:38:59
subject: <b>Interesting theory</b>
body:
There are two other pitfalls in your theory.<br /><br />First, shouldn't the forsaken have noted that their ability to channel had changed, especially Ishamael? Ishamael was free during Artur Hawkwing's time, when the seals were still firmly in place, and even if he used the TP 99.99% of the time, he would have noticed that he couldn't channel as much OP as he used to.<br /><br />Second, there were some strong channellers found among the aiel, the sea folk, the seanchan, maybe even the sharans. The ability to channel was only fading among the people of the wetlands (to use aiel terminology), where it is supposed that the ability was being culled from the population. Also, IIRC, most of the false dragons over the years have been stronger than most of the AS.<br /><br />In addition to this, the pitfall you mentioned has a second issue - shouldn't the male channellers during the breaking have noticed that they could channel less of the OP than before? Even while they were going crazy, they would have noticed it.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Asmodean is alive and posing as Sammael!<br /><br />Sammael <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sammy.gif" border="0" /> is Sparticus.<br /><br />No, I'm Sparticus! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /> = <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />I'm Herid Fel Reborn!!!!! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shy.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-02-08 00:13:29
subject: <b>Hmmm...</b>
body:
I don't agree.<br /><br />Even though I like the theory I cannot possibly agree because of the most obvious flaw in the content ... channelers are not weaker in the third Age.<br /><br />If your theory is based on Aes Sedai strength then it is grossly misrepresented. Aes Sedai work on a rediculously intricate selection process filled with favouritism and a poor search for initiates.<br /><br />If we take groups which soak up all the channelers in the population , it is clear that strength is the same as the Age of Legends. At least one member of these groups has Forsaken strength in the Power - Alivia , Talaan , Someryn. Even the ash'aman have some very strong members like Logain and Taim.<br /><br />The potential has always been there , but rarely fostered like that in the Age of Legends.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">A One Power researcher<br />Defender of Lanfear<br />Grand Ninja-Nae'blis to be feared <br />Original Warder to Isa <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br />New Warder to Nossie <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />Toy to Seriana <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/winky.gif" border="0" /><br />Mystified by a Fan <br />Bonded Phelix - I was young, it happened so fast.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-02-08 06:57:47
subject: <b>hmm</b>
body:
I think, You don't need to suppose that the Sealing of the Bore made the channeling more difficult. So the problems with the risky suggestion that AoL channelers were stronger (if so the Forsaken would now feel themselves weaker than they were in the AoL. And there are no reasons for the Sealing to change the situation with the thinness, because LTT sealed the Bore, not the thinness.<br /><br />There is a parallel between DO who can be sensed only at Shayol Ghul because the thinness, but who's Bore is everywhere in the world, and the One Power, that is also everywhere in the world. This could maybe be some support for you.<br /><br />However I would like to find more support for this theory. Until now a probably alternative though.


created: 2005-02-09 19:57:03
subject: <b>I think strength in channeling is caused by different factors</b>
body:
Alivia is centuries old, until they found Elayne, Cadsuane was the strongest alive, and had been the standard against which others were judged, and she's 300, give or take.  So why the spike of strong women a couple of centuries ago?  Assuming strength isn't random, there might be reasons why the strongest remain hidden (like Sharina).  After all, wilders are said in the beginning to be among the strongest sisters.  Maybe a natural selection thing, or maybe there is some inherent quality to strength that leads them to avoid other channelers.  I personally think that the tendency has been to grow ever more conservative, and reluctant to actively hunt down girls (maybe making more effort feels like lowering standards), thus the sample gets smaller and smaller.  I'm guessing that strength, if charted would be a bell curve, with the majority in the middle, and only a couple of Morgases, Sorileas, Nynaeves and Sharinas.  Thus, the smaller the sample, the fewer extremes of either end.  If the numbers  are really shrinking, I lean toward the &quot;culling of humanity&quot; theory, though I blame it on the Aes Sedai not breeding, rather than the Red's gentling all the men.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


created: 2005-02-10 18:45:57
subject: <b>Disagree</b>
body:
I think the relative weakness of 3rd Age channelers did not occur immediately, rather it was a slow process that grew out of the fact that the male channelers were no longer reproducing and females generally don't reproduce either.  Assuming channeling has at least somewhat of a physical aspect to it, this would result in fewer and weaker channelers being born, since it's obviously a recessive genetic trait.


created: 2005-02-13 17:03:18
subject: <b>One Problem</b>
body:
I put this on the wrong place initially, but here goes, I expect if this theory were true the Forsaken would have mentioned a greater difficulty in channelling in this age<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">---from the island of dr.bong---<br />---the tintinabulations are only temporary---</font><p></p>


created: 2005-02-21 08:33:32
subject: <b>You have some blank spotts...</b>
body:
First the forsaken should have felt their power lessening and it's a pretty big thing, I think they would have told 'us'.<br />I think that the reason there are less strong channelers this age is the all the male channelers got killed or captured by red ajah. AS have killed the OP in the world during centuries and it isn't until now the gift to channel have begun to come back again. <br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Power corrupts. Absolute power is kind of neat <br />John Lehman (1942 - ), Secretary of the US Navy, 1981-1987 <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-26 18:36:23
subject: <b>Interesting</b>
body:
verry interesting infact. I say that I think it is so. Some people just need a lot of convincing!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> God died for me, nobody_much! So now I'll go to heaven! Yup me, Nobody_much<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-02-07 08:13:16
subject: <b>I really don't buy it, sorry.</b>
body:
The shocking event that th3 writer alluded to is that there will be less poetic description and more forward movement of the plot. Legions of WoT fans will be so unused to anything actually happening that they will not be able to grasp that James Rigney has disappeared around the bend with the storyline and will have to run hard to catch up.


created: 2005-02-07 08:14:03
subject: <b>I really don't buy it, sorry.</b>
body:
The shocking event that the writer alluded to is that there will be less poetic description and more forward movement of the plot. Legions of WoT fans will be so unused to anything actually happening that they will not be able to grasp that James Rigney has disappeared around the bend with the storyline and will have to run hard to catch up.


created: 2005-02-07 12:17:11
subject: <b>I like it</b>
body:
I believe that Rand will 'die' or at least be severely wounded very soon, but I think it will happen at Caemlyn in the coming battle. He will then be taken to Tar Valon to be healed. Here one of the largest battles of TG will stand, the Horn will be blown. Rand does then make the final strike against the DO and dies.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br />Reading is lighter than a feather, waiting is heavier than a mountain<br /><font color="white">_____</font><b>-Maginor</b><br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-02-07 16:18:06
subject: <b>Possible</b>
body:
I like it. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br /><br /> <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-02-07 19:51:34
subject: <b>listen</b>
body:
aviendha is supposed to have six of rand's babies and she's not currently pregnant, nor are they around each other.  so i'd think its safe to say that we have a good deal of time before rand dies.


created: 2005-02-07 21:13:58
subject: <b>something odd</b>
body:
Min thought this about her viewing of Aviendha:<br /><br /><i>Aviendha would have Rand's babies, too. Four of them at once! Something was odd about that, though. The babies would be healthy, but still something odd.</i><br /><br />The oddness leaves a lot of room for speculation...<br />


created: 2005-02-08 13:24:29
subject: <b>Well</b>
body:
She might be pregnant with him very soon, and nothing says that they will be born before the series is over.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br />Reading is lighter than a feather, waiting is heavier than a mountain<br /><font color="white">_____</font><b>-Maginor</b><br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-02-08 14:59:18
subject: <b>Good Fiction</b>
body:
Well seeing as most of the Bible is fiction at least in relation to dates, as noted by many scholars, to fit closer with pagan rituals and to make Christ easier to accept as Christian Rome conquered them.  In fact the gospels themselves were choosen from only a few of Christ 13 apostles that portayed him as God made flesh and not GOd made man.  If there was to be similarities between Rand and Christ I think Rand would have to be more God like and less man like, at least to fit with the biblical version of Christ.  As far as the calendar is concerned I think the dates are close but I don't think Rand will be captured and I see little overall similarities with Chriat as portayed in the Bible, but people see what they want to often.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Deserves got nothing to do with it. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bobbafett.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-02-13 17:00:29
subject: <b>One Problem</b>
body:
If this were to be true I would have expected one of the Forsaken to mention some difficulty in channelling in this age as compared to AoL<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">---from the island of dr.bong---<br />---the tintinabulations are only temporary---</font><p></p>


created: 2005-02-15 16:30:45
subject: <b>evidence for your theory?</b>
body:
I don't see what the idea of march 20 being palm sunday in this world, this year, has to do with Aine 17 (April 1) in WoT, especially as these dates are not 5 days apart as you mention.  Is your entire theory just the idea that Easter's date is vague, but it occurs in the Spring? Well, of course. &quot;Of course&quot; is also the response to your assertion that the light of spring comes after the cold and dark of winter. The seasonal thing would have been played up before if it was going to do so now, right?<br /><br />Or is it that Rand will die from the meeting with faux-DotNM/Suroth/Semirhage in April? Well, it's a little early for that, considering it's before TG, his blood won't be anywhere near Shayol Ghul, and Nynaeve is way over in Caemlyn, and she's the one who will heal him three days dead.<br /><br />I can't vote yes on your theory


created: 2005-02-26 21:01:48
subject: <b>Rand's early death</b>
body:
To Elder Haman:<br /><br />The exact dates of those events I mentioned are not really what I was getting at. I was relating the Age that gave birth to Christ with Rand's. RJ said that he intended the Wheel of Time to encompass all of these Ages, ours included (in a fictional context, of course). Each Age is woven in similar ways to all others. For example, Rand's birth, and the attempt by the Shadow to kill him parallels King Herod the Great's slaughter of infants because of his fear of the Messiah prophecy.<br /><br />I am theorizing that Rand's death will come in such a way that readers will be reminded of Christ's death, maybe because it happens in Spring on some historically or mythologically important date, or because of the circumstances. Rand could be guilty of something: crimes against the Seanchan Empire, for example. And, at the same time, Rand's death could be comparable to that of other figures, such as Balder, maybe only sharing a few subtle bits of similarity (a boat, a ring, the number nine).<br /><br />As for Rand's possible early death, before he finishes his business with the Dark One, I think it is at least possible. It's the kind of thing you wouldn't expect: with Rand dead, you would have to assume that the Shadow is victorious. And that's exactly why I think it will happen that way <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br />


created: 2005-03-29 01:24:42
subject: <b>&quot;Resurrection&quot; for the Last Battle?</b>
body:
Its late at night so I would have to bring proof at a later time. . but. . did Egwene Dream of Logain steeping over a corpse of Rand but it was only a false body?  It was something like that I once heerd of.  ANyhow, lets say something does happen with Rand.  What if there is an attempt to kill him and to everyone else, they succed, everyone thinks that Rand is dead.  When Really Rand is ether to injured to show himself or takes the time to prepare in hiding for TG.  Then when the Last Battle starts and he shows himself, ages from now it will be remembered as him being &quot;resurrected&quot; to fight the Dark One.  I always thought that the real events RJ wasn't trying to make close to Christ or King Arthur or what not, he likes how they are remembered, thats why he puts those passages in the beginning and endding of his books.


created: 2005-06-27 02:37:38
subject: <b>April 1</b>
body:
If the corresponding dates are accurate, the only significance here is that Rand is scheduled to meet the fake Daughter of Nine Moons on April Fools Day.<br /><br />Rand: OMG! You're not tDoNM, you're a Forsaken!<br /><br />Forsaken: April Fools!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /> Nil Illegitimi Carborundrum <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> &quot;Mind Candy.  It's what's for dinner.&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2006-07-08 08:26:24
subject: <b>Elder Haman- Nyneave in Caemlyn?</b>
body:
Uhhh... where did you get that idea from man? Nyneave has been with Rand since the cleansing. Anyway, I have to agree with the last poster here, it was meant to correspond with April Fool's day.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Egwene must die.<br />Rand Al'Thor will face her wrath...<br />And laugh in her face!</font><p></p>


created: 2005-02-08 09:21:56
subject: <b>At first</b>
body:
At first, I was in complete disagreement with this theory.  I have always tended to think of angreal and sa'angreal as simple power magnifiers on a continuum -- a sa'angreal would be just a much stronger angreal.  But the points you raise that the two are technologically distinct are quite interesting.  First, I had never questioned the lack of glow when angreal are used.  I simply attributed it to the much smaller amounts of power drawn through angreal (compared to sa'angreal).  While this could still be a reasonable explanation, angreal and sa'angreal are treated as linguistically distinct in the glossary.  I don't always by into linguistic arguments; as a lawyer I frequently see them used as a cop-out by judges.  Nevertheless, you have given me enough evidence to seriously consider your theory.<br /><br />I am intrigued by the idea that the angreal may be just a buffer - you made me think of using a towel or hotpads to be able to hold a pot or pan that is much hotter than you normally could with your bare hands.  I think you need to marshal more evidence here, however.  When we see channelers using angreal, they seem to be able to draw not just more power safely, but more power than they could have controlled without.  I'm still thinking about Rand's use of the fat man angreal against Asmodean when both are fighting over the Choedan Kal in Rhuidean.  If an angreal is nothing but a buffer, why did he need it when he had the built in buffer of the Choedan Kal?  I realize this does not refute your argument.  I am going to be turning this over in my mind.<br /><br />Great Theory!<br /><br /><br />TFK


created: 2005-02-08 11:18:49
subject: <b>I disagree</b>
body:
It was said several times in the book that adding another angreal will increase amount of Power - look at Rand and Alivia. You didn't explain how adding another &quot;buffer-angreal&quot; helps increasing the amount of Power. The same goes to the circle. We know that adding a woman to the circle increases strength of the circle. Adding angreal increases it more. Look at usage of the Bowl, for example.<br />How that could be? Because, circles already protected from overdosage by themselves, unless I'm mistaken.<br /><br />Though I agree that angreal and sa'angreal are kind of different technology. But my guess it's the same principle. They are magnifiers. As sidious wrote somewhere, sa'angreal technology was able to overcome heating problem by deflecting some energy to the light. Simple angreal can't do that - thus it was able to conduct less Power.<br /><br />


created: 2005-02-08 11:23:45
subject: <b>I disagree</b>
body:
It was said several times in the book that adding another angreal will increase amount of Power - look at Rand and Alivia. You didn't explain how adding another &quot;buffer-angreal&quot; helps increasing the amount of Power. The same goes to the circle. We know that adding a woman to the circle increases strength of the circle. Adding angreal increases it more. Look at usage of the Bowl, for example.<br />How that could be? Because, circles already protected from overdosage by themselves, unless I'm mistaken.<br />Another point, Lanfear/Cyndane are the strongest woman. Nobody can draw that much Power than her. But Alivia with the usage of &quot;buffer-angreal&quot; can. I don't think that's right.<br /><br /><br />Though I agree that angreal and sa'angreal are kind of different technology. But my guess it's the same principle. They are magnifiers. As sidious wrote somewhere, sa'angreal technology was able to overcome heating problem by deflecting some energy to the light. Simple angreal can't do that - thus it was able to conduct less Power.<br /><br />


created: 2005-02-08 12:25:14
subject: <b>Great theory!</b>
body:
You might just be on to something here.  It makes a lot of sense.  If Rand is strength 10 (I just grabbed a number here) he couldn't normally use level 12 of the Power without burning himself out/killing himself.  But with the angreal, he can get up to that far.  A good example of this is when Rand uses the Portal Stone in TSR.  Moiraine is sure that Rand was using too much of the Power, risking burning himself out, etc, even with his male angreal.  But Rand knew that it would work.  He probably didn't know the properties of angreal, but if the Portal Stone needed level 12 to operate, with the angreal, Rand was just barely there.<br /><br />Another example would be at the end of TSR:  After Rand's battle with Asmo, handling enough power to break up the Lanfear-Amso fight would not have been possible.  He would have lost control of his weaves and disaster would have resulted (burning out or killing himself).  But the angreal buffered his flows, allowing him to handle saidin safely for the short time.


created: 2005-02-08 12:48:48
subject: <b>Nifty</b>
body:
Congradulations on having the 1200th theory!<br /><br /><br />It does make sense, and helps to explain something that troubled me from the battle with Asmodean. Rand, while using the power drawn through a sa'angreal, reached out also through an Angreal, and it made enough difference to turn the battle.<br /><br />Thanks!


created: 2005-02-08 21:08:20
subject: <b>Good theory</b>
body:
I've wondered for a long time what difference there was between <i>sa'angreal</i> and <i>angreal</i>. An <i>sa'angreal</i> being only a really powerful <i>angreal</i> never made sense to me.<br /><br />I'm not sure I agree with the ending, where you say <i>angreal</i> are only buffers.


created: 2005-02-09 09:19:22
subject: <b>Flawed</b>
body:
This comment has very little to do with your actual theory. First, I would like to point out that you need to learn to spell; pretty badly I might add. Also, you need to learn proper grammar (i.e. well instead of good).<br /><br />That aside, your theory has quite a few flaws. People who cannot channel do not see the glow of sa'angreals. On Tremalking, which is the incident I believe you are referring to, the person who sees the glow is obviously a channeler whether they know it/accept it or not. Also, it is said very frequently, angreals and sa'angreals do not use the power, they merely magnify it. <br /><br />That is why if people have a higher strength, the (sa')angreal gives more power. Think of it as a multiplier. Lets say that angreals have less than a multiplier of 2, and and sa'angreals have a multiplier greater than 2. Then, let's say that Rand has a strength of 10. An angreal of 1.5 would make his new strength 15. However, a sa'angreal of 5 would make his new strength 50. That is quite a difference.<br /><br />If I had the time, I would go into greater depth, but for now, this will have to do.


created: 2005-02-09 10:29:46
subject: <b>Refuting Charkorik</b>
body:
Just have to refute a point here.<br /><br />The Choeden Kal are male and female, with the female one in Tremalking. Both were seen glowing by non-channelers. The chance of one viewer being a channeler is fair, but both? Also, both viewers were male. One of them should have seen nothing by your logic. Neither side can see the other channeling the power. IE Females glow and males can't see that.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />   the Harvester of Mankind    <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />      the Thief of Years       <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />     the Slayer of Worlds      <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />     the Ultimate Reality      <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Blog - brucetheloon.blogspot.com</font><p></p>


created: 2005-02-09 13:48:15
subject: <b>More refuation</b>
body:
Besides, even male channelers don't see a glow around other male channelers.  That only happens among female channelers.<br /><br /><br />TFK


created: 2005-02-09 13:49:54
subject: <b>And as for spellchecking...</b>
body:
How well does anybody here write in Bulgarian?<br /><br />Probably not that well.<br /><br /><br />TFK


created: 2005-02-09 13:51:52
subject: <b>Thumbs up for your theory.</b>
body:
Don`t know if you are correct or not. I`ll leave the OP and objects to those of you who study them. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />To Charkorik:<br /><br />English is not the native tongue of A dragonburnedfool.<br />He is from Belgium(?) and does very well with English.<br />Be kind.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2005-02-09 15:07:44
subject: <b>Good stuff!</b>
body:
It actually makes a lot of sense.<br />I had never really thought about the difference before but that does seem to explain a lot.<br />I like it!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">~Moonwolf~<br />Wolf-sister and Aes Sedai of the Brown Ajah</font><p></p>


created: 2005-02-09 16:06:11
subject: <b>the good, the bad, and the ugly</b>
body:
The good:<br /><br />Your evidence that sa'angreal and angreal are different technologies has me convinced.  In particular that sa'angreal don't have the buffer.  We know that Callandor doesn't have the buffer and Rand's P.O.V. in WH seems to suggest that the access keys and Choedan Kal doesn't have the buffer.  (Rand drew power until it hurt pushing himself to the very edge.  The linking protects Nynaeve but does it protect the leader of the circle, probably not.)  In addition, we have Queen Eldrene who burnt herself (and Manetheren) out with a power overflow.  Yet we know that the effort of wiping out all the dread lords would significantly more power than Callandor's strength.  Queen Eldrene most likely used the broken melted access key that Egwene sees in Tanchico during her T'A'R visit.  Even considering the fact that the Choedan Kal should be considered as a 3rd type of technology I think their is strong circumstantial evidence that you are correct here.<br /><br />The Bad:<br /><br />1.  Angreals don't just provide a better buffer.  It also makes it easier to draw the power. <br /><br />2.  Sa'angreals don't just draw power on their own.  In WH we see that the power actually flows through Rand when he uses the access key.  <br /><br />The Ugly:<br />This post needs to be edited.  It was very distracting to me (and I am not very good either at spelling or grammar).  I am not blaming the author and I understand difficulties due to language barrier.  On the other hand, the TP admins should have accepted it on the condition that the author finds a suitable editor and resubmits it.<br /><br />It is my understanding that there are a number of people on wotmania who would be willing to edit posts like this.  (Most of the problems could be eliminated with a simple spell checker.)<br /><br />I would not complain, nor should I, if this appeared on the message board.  But, IMOSHO, the TP should demand a higher level of thought, evidence, and yes spelling and grammar than the MB.  This theory post fulfils the first two criteria, but alas, not the third.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">RabidWombat<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> Let the Lord of Rambling Thoughts rule <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> Proud owner of a 2 star rating! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /> Someone stole all my cookies <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-02-09 20:21:42
subject: <b>I didn't see if anyone mentioned this...</b>
body:
But remember when the Bowl of the Winds was being used: the three angreal were given to the strongest women.  They were in order: 1.Nynaeve/Talaan (too close to call), 3. Elayne/Aviendha/Metarra (also too close to call), 6. Someone else, don't know or care who.  The people who used the angreal were Nynaeve, Talaan and Aviendha.  Nynaeve and Elayne were the leaders of the whole project, so they were the tie-breakers, but as Nynaeve said: &quot;...pity we have to let the Sea Folk use one...&quot; They had no idea they would definitely have angreal to use, so it could not have been part of the bargain.  Obviously it must have been necessity.  For the same reason Callandor is given to the circle that includes the strongest of the men at Shadar Logoth: Narishma was the least experienced, and the lowest ranking, and he was not trusted to lead a circle as Flinn was.  Unless Cadsuane was making a point about not caring about Asha'man rank, which I can't see her doing with everyone's @$$ on the line.  The only necessity I can see is that angreal and sa'angreal multiply the channler's strength in the Power instead of simply adding to it.  If it was simple addition, Nynaeve and Elayne would have given the angreal to the three women they trusted most: themselves and Aviendha.  Instead, Nynaeve who's tied with Talaan for strongest gets the best one, as she is the most trusted, her near-equal get's another and Elayne gives the third, as she is the Aes Sedai, but she gives it to Aviendha for morale purposes, which she couldn't have done if they weren't very close in strength.  Aviendha and Elayne have different skills in the Power, Elayne has more experience but if they are equally qualified, it can only be because they are so close in strength. Strength was the deciding factor in assigning the angreal.  If Elayne was trying to make Aviendha feel better by giving her access to more of the power, she would have given her the best angreal (she's undoubtedly physically tougher than Nynaeve and could have handled the fatigue better), but that had to go to the strongest channeler.  Trustworthiness was merely the tie-breaker between two women of similar strength, or there would have been objections to the Aiel the Sea Folk disliked, the wilder the Aes Sedai mistrusted, and Elayne's friend whom Nynaeve was uncertain about, using the angreal instead of Elayne, the 2nd in command of the AS, and one of those with whom the Sea Folk had made the Bargain, and the woman in the party most trusted by both Nynaeve and Aviendha.  So to sum up: If strength is the deciding factor in determining which person in a circle will get the best effect from an angreal, then angreal and sa'angreal multiply strength rather than add to it...<br /><br />How this affects the whole Theory as posted, I have no clue.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


created: 2005-02-10 07:17:27
subject: <b>Responses</b>
body:
Can you forgive me my bad spelling and grammar? I don't know what to do with the grammar, but at least spelling must be something I have to check. Excuse me again and thank you for your attention to my theory despite of it's poor grammatical appearance.<br /><br />From several replies I see, that I haven't addressed and explained a very important aspect of the topic: the connection between my idea angreals being nothing but buffers, and angreal's function as strength multiplier dependent on channeler's natural strenght. Fisher King used a good metaphor for the buffer being like a towel allowing you to grasp a hot pan. Thicker towel will make you able to grasp a hoter pan than a thinner towel, many towels are like thicker towel. Also if we have two persons, one of them able to grasp a hotter thing with bare hands than the other one, then the towel will help to both, but the first one will be able to touch hotter pan than the second one. The buffers also can be &quot;thicker&quot; or &quot;thinner&quot; and all of them only help to the natural strenght of the channeler to bear Power.<br /><br />Actually I wanted to create a hypothesis explaining exactly how angreals amplify the strength. The similarity between the angreal usage and cirle linking (as shown in tPoD, ch. 5, where Nynaeve is explaning to the Windfinders both how to link somebody to a circle and how to use an angreal) is a clue. A passive member of a circle prepares to embrace the source but doesn't do the very last step, while the leader of the circle is stretching (sp.) to her. Similar stretching is needed also for to use an angreal. Now my suggestion is that the angreal somehow emulates the mental state of being-on-the-boundary-to-embrace-the-Source (with emphasis on being-on-the-boundary). This &quot;boundary&quot; doesn't allow the channeler to draw through the angreal more than a certain degree, because it's in the nature of the angreal to be a &quot;boundary&quot; between stretching to the Source and touching it. Let imagine that the stretching to the source and drawing from it, is as if you make yourself longer and thinner. The longer you are, the deeper you come in the Source and the more Power you can use. But it makes you also thinner and when you are too thin the Power will break you. Having an angreal you have together with your stretching the thicker mental image of the buffer's controlled stretching, the both images interfere between each other like two weaves, the buffer modulates your stretching and your stretching becomes tighter. Does all that make sense?<br /><br />And also: buffer means more resistence, more resistence means more control, more control means more Power possible to use. I don't see any significant difference between saying that one is using an amount of Power safely, and saying that she is controlling this amount.<br /><br />As about the last question of Fisher King, about the need of the fat man angreal in the fight against Asmodean, the built-in buffer of Choedan Kal gives you safety only for the amount of Power you have from Choedan Kal. This amoung is huge but finite, and the CK buffer works only for this finite amount. Rand in the fight controls half the capacity of CK and half of the capacity of CK's buffer. A little bit more Power will require another buffer. Because every buffer has capacity.<br /><br />Here I have another thought: a channeler cannot draw more than the buffer allows. But it is true only about the Power flowing through the angreal, and it is not necessary all the Power the channeler is using in the moment. A channeler can draw Power through the angreal, and he can draw more Power besides the angreal (or through another angreal as in Rand's fight with Asmodean). So an channeler can still draw Power besides the angreal and be burned by it, as the case with Eldrene could be (so she could draw additional Power even if her sa'angreal had good buffer).<br /><br /><br />to Skeeve:<br />Actually my idea is that the angreals are buffers and that makes them to work as magnifiers. The magnification is only effect of being capable to use more Power safely. The strenght of a channeler is something like a incomplete natural buffer. Angreal buffers add protective capacity to this initial amount, because they increase your controlling capacity. Sidious gave another possible explanation of the light of the sa'angreals, so my explanation is not the only possible. But an advantage of my explanation is, taht it also explains how the angreal work.<br /><br />to Aging Computer:<br />I'm not sure that there are any limits of the ability to draw Power, it's known only that there are limits of the ability to bear Power. If a channeler could have unlimited endurance, this channeler could draw unlimited amounts of Power. But every real endurance is limited. Above some point you can draw more Power, but it destroys you. Your ability to draw Power is working very well, it even naturally tends to draw more and more and more. Angreals and sa'angreals enhance this endurance.<br /><br />to Charkorik:<br />Of course angreals do not use the Power and they magnify it. My whole idea was that the limit of Power-strenght is nothing but the limit of control over Power. Enhancing of controlling ability is magnification of Power (and most likely it will work exactly as a multiplier rather than just to add Power). Buffers are accelerators of resistance, and resistance is capability to control. Buffers enhance the capability, not the usage, so everything is Okay. <br /><br />to RabidWombat:<br />Thank You about the explanation how circle leaders and sa'angreal users can be burned despite of the buffers, while the buffer protects only the passive members. Could it be said that buffers protect only partion of the whole strem of Power used in a circle or by a channeler with angreals? <br />The fact that angreals also help to draw easier could be explained so: a buffer is something between you and the Source and it takes part of Source's pressure on you. Less pressure should make everything easier to be done.<br />More difficult objection is that the flowing of the whole sa'angreal gained flow through the channeler makes my statement that sa'angreals draw Power for their own not so plausible. But I hope a better expression of my initial idea about the sa'angreals will help to cope with this problem. I suggested that sa'angreals are like the passive channelers in a circle: they bring into the circle a percent of their own capacity. Angreals magnify only depending on the channeler's strenght, while circles compound strength depends on the strenght of the passive channelers. Sa'angreals depend on channeler's strength like angreals, but I suppose they also add their own capacity. The circle leader can bear the total flow of the circle, because the passive members also bear the pressure of the Power (and passive members get tired even if they do not use the Power) and it helps the leader to endure it. I'm suggesting that sa'angreals also distribute the pressure of the Power like passive members do it.<br /><br />


created: 2005-02-10 09:38:35
subject: <b>Ultimately...</b>
body:
There doesn't seem to be much difference in effect whether (1) an angreal magnifies the power you can draw while its buffer protects you from drawing too much, or (2) an angreal provides a strong buffer, allowing yu to draw more than you normally could.  This appears to be a distinction without a difference.<br /><br />TFK


created: 2005-02-10 18:23:48
subject: <b>Other theory</b>
body:
I'm interested how this theory fits in with the recent theory regarding the light that is thrown off when women channel.  There was also some reference to the Choeden Kal in that theory.  Anybody have any ideas?


created: 2005-02-14 11:54:42
subject: <b>Interesting note on spelling/grammar complaints</b>
body:
I have been reading theories on this site for quite some time - I haven't posted anything before because I usually don't have all that much to say.  I do think it necessary to point out something interesting about the two cads who chose to attack the grammar and spelling of this theory:  they both used poor grammar in their complaints!<br /><br />Charkorik:<br /><br />&quot;First, I would like to point out that you need to learn to spell; pretty badly I might add.&quot;  <br />- Very poor use of &quot;badly&quot; unless, of course, you meant that the author should learn to spell badly (which is confusing since your complaint was that the author was already spelling badly)?<br /><br />&quot;On Tremalking, which is the incident I believe you are referring to, the person who sees the glow is obviously a channeler whether they know it/accept it or not.&quot;  <br />- The word &quot;person&quot; is singular; &quot;they&quot; is plural. <br /><br /><br /> RabidWombat:<br /><br />&quot;Even considering the fact that the Choedan Kal should be considered as a 3rd type of technology I think their is strong circumstantial evidence that you are correct here.&quot;<br /> - I believe you wanted to use &quot;there&quot; instead of &quot;their&quot;; homonyms are a pain aren't they?<br /><br />Next time you feel like attacking someone who has managed to make himself/herself perfectly intelligible in a foreign tongue please make the text of your complaint fit the standard you are requiring. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br />


created: 2005-02-14 13:32:49
subject: <b>To: The mad grammarian</b>
body:
They is often used in the singular. It has been since the Middle Ages. Well done. As to your other grammatical argument, I concede that I made one mistake in my whole argument. However, in your argument against that, you did the exact same thing. You used badly to describe his spelling as opposed to poorly.<br /><br />As to your name, I find it quite odd that you would define yourself as somebody specialized in grammar who only notices the most obvious of spelling and grammatical mistakes, and even then is only right a third of the time. I'd say that if you thought of yourself as a grammarian, then you truly are mad.


created: 2005-02-14 17:17:10
subject: <b>Ok</b>
body:
Charkorik:<br /><br />Not that I agree with you, because I and Webster certainly do not agree with you, but:  <br /><br />My post was made simply to point out the childishness of complaining about grammar in the referenced posting.  You've made my point - thank you.  If it makes you feel any better I will gleefully concede any future argument. I will say no more.


created: 2005-02-14 18:01:40
subject: <b>Mad grammarian:</b>
body:
I believe in the sentence using &quot;badly&quot; the posting person was using badly to modify the verb &quot;need.&quot;  I have never heard that &quot;badly&quot; is not a proper modifier for the verb &quot;to need.&quot;   In fact, I often hear people use some form of that adverb/verb combination.  Also, in that person's defense, an occasional obscure grammar error of that nature is not nearly as annoying as an entire theory full of mispellings, and abuse of the proper plural form of a word.  He/she was probably not aware of the writer's foreign origin.  I do agree that their grammatical criticism was out of line.  I thought about posting a correction of my own, but checked the profile first, and refrained when I realized he is probably reading a foreign-language version.<br /><br />And people who misuse their and there and they're should be killed without mercy.  Also your and you're.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


created: 2005-02-14 18:12:23
subject: <b>Mad grammarian?</b>
body:
The Mad grammarian posting complaints about the grammar... Is it some sort of principle? Something you do because it is in your &quot;character&quot; to be mad about the grammar in all posts? Anyway... I think you are silly to complain about the grammar... It was a fine theory, and THAT is what matters!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perplexed.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smackhead.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /> LLT <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-02-15 00:05:11
subject: <b>Sheesh</b>
body:
I can't believe you people are ruining this poor guy's theory with grammar debates. How about focussing on the  theory and debating the content?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">A One Power researcher<br />Defender of Lanfear<br />Grand Ninja-Nae'blis to be feared <br />Original Warder to Isa <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br />New Warder to Nossie <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />Toy to Seriana <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/winky.gif" border="0" /><br />Mystified by a Fan <br />Bonded Phelix - I was young, it happened so fast.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-02-15 05:51:17
subject: <b>have to disagree</b>
body:
remember when rand is fighting asmodean at Rhuidean and they both have their hands on the CK? Both are drawing pretty equal amounts of saidin, but then Rand withdraws the little fat swordsman angreal, which he says tips the balance for him...<br /><br />'he could not pull another thread through the ter'angreal; he and asmodean were equally balanced, each with half of what the great sa'angreal in cairhien could draw'<br /><br />'the carving of the fat little man with the sword still tucked in his waistband. an insignificant thing compared to vast river, to an ocean'<br /><br />'He reached into the small angreal in his waistband and more of the One Power flowed through him'<br /><br />all from Traps of Rhuidean in TSH and i think that pretty conclusively disproves that<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">idealism not pragmatism</font><p></p>


created: 2005-02-15 06:02:43
subject: <b>so to tie up</b>
body:
angreal must allow the channeler to draw upon an exrta amount of saidin, rand was already on his limit of saidin, but then hwe got that little bit extra to beat rand<br /><br />2nd: about the glowing thing, on the occassions that sa'angreal have been used, the been used in vast quantities. <br />the cleansing, CK<br />the stone of tear, calandor<br />battlling seanchan, callandor<br />rhuidean, CK<br /><br />if they were using the amount as you can pull through an angreal would it still glow, doubtful. i actually think  that angreals and sa'angeals act like bridges to link channelers to the immense amount of the One Power that turns the wheel of time, but hey, what do i know <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />lastly, i couldn't give a flying monkey crap what y'all think of my grammar so sod off!!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">idealism not pragmatism</font><p></p>


created: 2005-02-15 18:59:35
subject: <b>lol,</b>
body:
as of now, half, yes i counted, half of the posts are concerning grammer. or is it grammar...? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smackhead.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />but aside from that stupidity, great theory!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">-Sabin<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-02-16 06:22:52
subject: <b>responses</b>
body:
to beelkay:<br />I'm still on the fence what to think about the resistance theory of Sidious. His theory seems to give an explanation of sa'angreal glowing different than mine. But I don't see any definite reason for this theory to be incompatible with the mine.<br />Maybe the resistance theory implies that the glowing of the sa'angreals is not due to their main mechanism of OP enhancing, but due to an additional feature of preserving the sa'angreal itself. If such implication is true for the resistance theory, so my theory will be incompatible with it. But this implication is not necessary. The cooling possibility of sa'angreals in difference to angreals could be due to the difference in technology I suggested. According to my theory angreals do not utilize OP themselves, it doesn't actually flow &quot;through&quot; them, because the angreal applies to the channeler not to the connection between the channeler and the Source. So the angreal cannot show any resistance, but the channeler will have to do with the resistance of the whole flow. While sa'angreals receive OP flow like passive channelers and only after them the OP flows to the active channeler. Passive channelers in a circle are tired when the circle is channeling, so passive channelers show resistance (if there is no resistence, than what will make a passive channeler tired?). If sa'angreals act like linked channelers then the sa'angreals would be able to have their own resistance.<br /><br />I'm not good in physics, but I think resistance is not the best possible explanation for the sa'angreals allowing so great Power enhancing. So much resistance in sa'angreals that the glow like suns, would mean that the Power they supply will be significantly decreased. While angreals that not show resistance (i.e. no such losses of Power) are weaker than sa'angreals. That makes me to doubt about the applicability of resistance theory to sa'angreals.<br /><br /><br />to Foxhead:<br />When Rand in the fight with Asmodean feels that he cannot draw more, it doesn't exclude the possibility that he draws more in unsafe manner. Rand just has no reason to consider that option, because it is fast and sure way to lose the battle and to be stilled in it. Often in the books it is mentioned how a channeler reached his/her limit of safe channeling - so apparently channelers (at least trained ones) sense that limit quite well. Everything over this limit will be considered as equal to suicide and will be not taken into account when thinking for the needed Power for a particular weave. If I am on the edge of a high cliff so that if I make a step forward I will down, then the fact is that I physically can make this step. But if you ask me, can I make this step, I will answer &quot;no&quot; and I really will think so. I will know I'm physically able, but I will not consider this option. Other people would also agree that I cannot make the step forward. The same is with a channeler on the limit of his/her strenght. He/she is able to drive more, but this option will be equal to suicide, and he/she will not consider it. And if he/she has to think about, the normal thought will be &quot;I cannot draw more&quot;. Only extremely pedantic minds will think about it in more exact manner like &quot;I can draw more, but it is not safe, because etc...&quot;, because usually in critical cases people do not think so theoretically correct.<br /><br />So, foxhead, I don't find how your example with the Choedan Kal will be an issue for my theory. The fat'man angreal allows more safe power for Rand and he uses it. The unsafe power possibilities is not usable in his case, because in this case he is not ready to win against Asmodean on the prize of his own burning out.<br /><br />


created: 2005-02-18 15:38:27
subject: <b>One thing...</b>
body:
One thing that needs explaining: If an angreal is just a buffer, then why do some angreal allow more power than others? <br /><br />I agree with the theory, and my guess is that it's just a stronger buffer, which would suggest that a sa'angreal is a buffer and a multiplier.  This leads to my theory that IF the buffer were EVER fixed on Callandor, it would increase the ammount of power the user could handle with the un-buffered Callandor.  Just a thought, good theory though.


created: 2005-02-19 08:36:33
subject: <b>to Exitialis</b>
body:
Well, when I thought about buffers, I thought about something that can protect you only in degree. A buffer for example is a towel I use to touch a hot pan. If the towel is thin and the pan is very hot it could be not enough to touch the pan, but a thicker towel could help in this case.<br /><br />Angreals apparently work on only one part of the Power that a channeler can draw in a moment. When Rand is fighting against Asmodean, he draws most of his OP from Choedan Kal and only for one little flow he is strecthing through the fat man angreal. So Rand is channeling in the same time through the angreal and otherwise. I.e. the angreal works only with part of Rand's channeling capacity. How vaste par tof the channeling capacity? Apparently this will depend on the specifics of the particular angreal, and apparently some angreals would allow more, some angreals less.<br /><br />


created: 2006-02-10 07:43:43
subject: <b>Listen to Cannoli</b>
body:
I think you should all listen to what Cannoli says about angreal multiplying the strenght of the person using it, as showed in the example with the Bowl of Winds.<br />That means angreal can't be just buffers. If angreal was only buffers it would mean that any channeler could have used it with the same result when they used the Bowl of Winds. But Elayne was giving it to the strongest channelers, which she must have had a reason doing. And that reason being that they as a circle could draw more of saidar, then if the weaker channelers in the circle would be holding the angreal.<br /><br />That's what I think anyway.<br />


created: 2007-03-20 22:18:43
subject: <b>Interesting</b>
body:
I disagree on some certain points, such as angreal just being a buffer, if that was so it wouldn't increase how much someone could channel at all, it would just make sure they couldn't channel too much.<br /><br />As for Angreal and Sa'angreal being different, I think you are right on that. I have a theory that Angreal/Sa'angreal act like capacitors. They hold the extra power and allow the channeler to weave it. As for how they are different, it is probably only in the way they are made, which in effect would create the distinction in how much power one lets you use. <br /><br />As a side note, Construction of Sa'angreal was either new by the end of the Age of Legends, or very difficult, because it seemed that Angreal were common in the Age of Legends (Angreal were made as jewelry to be worn, most likely daily!) but most likely not Sa'angreal as they are even more rare than Angreal. I'd guess that the making of a Sa'angreal is either obnoxiously complex, or it requires a large circle of channelers.


created: 2005-02-14 02:45:21
subject: <b>I'm going to hold off on voting...</b>
body:
So let me see if I have this straight:<br /><br />1. The Taint + LTT's brilliant suicide = LTT's soul being partially trapped in limbo<br /><br />2. This affected how his soul would be reborn, and kept his ta'veren-ness from affecting the pattern, but allowed Ishy (as a dark ta'veren) to affect the pattern almost at will.<br /><br />3. When LTT was reborn in Rand Ishy was suddenly balanced<br /><br />4. Channeling Tainted Saidin let LTT get through to Rand at first, but now that their &quot;destiny&quot; is back on line they're merging back into one persona.<br /><br />5. The channeling sickness Rand is feeling is LTT re-learning to channel?<br /><br /><br />OK... some of those points I like, and correct me if  misinterpreted them... but I'm still unsure on whether there's enough evidence to back this up. You have great evidence to support how Rand/LTT should be, but almost none on why they are as they are.<br /><br />Also, why would LTT be feeling learner's sickness again? He learned a long time ago, Rand's learned already, and pure Saidin is no different than Tainted, excluding the taint itself.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Warder to Be'lal's Girl<br />Wotmania Lottery<br /><br /><br /><br />&quot;Meh. A good relationship is like fireworks: loud, explosive, and liable to maim you if you hold on too long.&quot; ~ Sven, Questionable Content<br /><br />Bonded by Sidious. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-02-14 04:47:05
subject: <b>Don't quite buy it</b>
body:
I don't think you have enough evidence to back this theory up. I don't quite agree.<br /><br />In my opinion, the Dark one cannot alter destiny because he has to act through the pattern. The pattern kind of grabs his actions and use them in its weave.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bela.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bela.gif" border="0" /> Don't even think to ask how I came up with my nick; you don't want to know <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-02-14 09:43:39
subject: <b>I disagree</b>
body:
The problem is that we don't know for a fact that this turning of the wheel is unique.  For all we know, saidin has been tainted before, thousands of times. Maybe it is necessary that the Dragon of this age has the memories of the prior because this dragon has to deal with already existing evil creatures.  LTT got to rise to power in a peaceful society. He had earned his place (and his three names) before the DO was released.  Compare that with Rand who had to deal with dark friends and trollocs before he could control his channelling.  In fact, he had to deal with some of the Forsaken before he had really learned to channel.  For all we know, the Pattern makes certain that this Dragon has some of the previous Dragon's memories to ensure that he has a chance to defeat the DO.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">May you be successful  in all your projects.<br /><br />I am a pastafarion.  The Flying Spaghetti Monster created the universe, and no one in Kansas can prove me wrong.<br /><br />http://www.vengaza.org</font><p></p>


created: 2005-02-14 11:24:57
subject: <b>Don't agree on the simple basis</b>
body:
I don't think LTT is a Hero of the Horn, like Hawkwings or Birgitte. Yes, he is tied to the Horn, but that doesn't mean he is a &quot;Hero&quot;. Arthur's words are basically confirm that - &quot;we are fighting for the Dragon&quot; (not exact quote). That means Dragon supposed to be re-born and Heroes fights only for the Dragon. Are there other times when LTT not re-born and they are fighting? I don't think so, otherwise Arthur would say something like &quot;today we fight...&quot;<br /><br />And if we remove that basis (LTT is a Hero of the Horn) from you theory - it goes kaboom. Basically, we don't know what all the Dragon capabilities are. Maybe hearing previous Dragon is one of them.


created: 2005-02-14 14:02:27
subject: <b>eh, not quite</b>
body:
but there is something odd about the dragon.  i beleive graendal states how strange it is for a hero of the horn to be singled out and prophecised about as he has been.


created: 2005-02-15 00:03:23
subject: <b>According to Hawkwing, LTT is a Hero</b>
body:
Great Hunt  CHAPTER: 47 - The Grave Is No Bar to My Call  <br />   Justice shone like a mirror in Artur Hawkwing's gauntleted fist. &quot;I have fought by your side times beyond number, Lews Therin, and faced you as many more. The Wheel spins us out for its purposes, not ours, to serve the Pattern. I know you, if you do not know yourself. We will drive these invaders out for you.&quot; His warhorse pranced, and he looked around, frowning. &quot;Something is wrong here. Something holds me.&quot; Suddenly he turned his sharp-eyed gaze on Rand. &quot;You are here. Have you the banner?&quot; A murmur ran through those behind him.  <br /><br />How would Hawkwing fight beside or against LTT times beyond number unless he was also a hero?  Not to mention the fact that the Wheel spins &quot;us&quot; (the inclusive us, Hawkwing and LTT together) out.  That what the Wheel does with Heroes.  Spin them out.<br /><br />As for LTT getting channeling sickness, usually he goes through that in each incarnation he is born into.  Rand certainly went through it.  In his limbo state, he lost the connection to saidin and regained it upon being reborn, so had to relearn.  Remember, he has tried to seize saidin on several occasions, but failed.  Why?


created: 2005-02-15 11:45:09
subject: <b>2 WineSpringBrother</b>
body:
No, he is not. LTT is bound to the Horn. But he is not a Hero of the Horn.<br /><br />&quot;How would Hawkwing fight beside or against LTT times beyond number unless he was also a hero?&quot; <br /><br />Hmmm... How about to fight at the Last Battle in each turn of Wheel (countless times)? As for &quot;faced you&quot; part - note that Arthur was saying about himself, not all the Heroes, because Heroes does not fight the Dragon, they follow him. And the only possible explanation is that happened when Arthur was alive at Age or Turn of the Wheel (like Gaidal Cain now), not as the Hero, and faced the Dragon as his enemy (like Tear High Lords in this Age, for example). Is it possible? Sure.<br /> <br />&quot;Not to mention the fact that the Wheel spins &quot;us&quot; (the inclusive us, Hawkwing and LTT together) out.&quot; <br /><br />Don't agree here. Later in the text he is saying &quot;We will drive these invaders out for you&quot;. Does he include LTT in the &quot;we&quot; as well? Don't think so. But if he meant LTT in the &quot;us&quot; it doesn't mean LTT is a Hero of the Horn. It means LTT and Heroes are spun out by the Wheels. For example, Arthur was spun out 1000 years ago to do Wheel's will. LTT is spun out now to do the same. That's called re-birth, and not &quot;being a Hero&quot;.


created: 2005-02-15 12:10:17
subject: <b>RJ confirmed the Dragon is a hero</b>
body:
http://www.wotmania.com/wotmessageboardshowmessage.asp?MessageID=165595<br /><br />2.) Re: The Dragon and The Dragon Reborn (and Graendal's thoughts about Ishy's musings)<br /><br />Q: &quot;Is this soul born in any other age, or only at the advent and (theoretically, of course) the closing of the Third Age, as The Dragon/TDR?&quot;<br /><br />A: This soul is one of the Heroes, and bound to the Wheel, spun out as the Pattern wills. &quot;It&quot; is born in other ages, but in a non-Dragon incarnation, to suit the pattern of that Age. In the course of this answer, he related this to why Hawkwing calls Rand &quot;Lews Therin&quot; at Falme--because Hawkwing recognizes this Soul. This didn't really tell me why he specifically calls him &quot;LTT&quot;, but apparently they've been hangin' together in T'A'R and the etiquette there is to call each other by the name of your last incarnation. (My interpretation.)<br />


created: 2005-02-15 15:53:32
subject: <b>Some thoughts</b>
body:
Throughout my readings/re-readings I always took Hawkwings statement to mean that he (Artur) had been subverted and was fighting against the Dragon either directly or indirectly for the shadow.  Remember, it is repeatedly stated that the heroes will fight for whomever (good or evil) sounds the horn.  Or, if Hawkwing was alive at the same time as the Dragon's soul he could have been manipulated by the bad guys to fight against him (he was manipulated enough while he was alive 1000 years ago).  The Dragon wasn't fighting for the DO w/ Hawkwing opposing him (Rand's comments to Ishamael about never having joined the dark side).  As to the Dragon's destiny being altered, I think we would have to see a previous AoL and Third Age where their had been no taint/LTT commiting suicide to say that this turning of the wheel was an abberation.  This idea smacks of questions such as: &quot;is the coming last battle the LAST battle?&quot; to which RJ has reportedly many times said that it wasn't.  We have no reasons to believe that this cycle of ages is different than previous/future ones.


created: 2005-02-15 17:45:21
subject: <b>changes in the pattern</b>
body:
While we have no 100% acknowledgement that LTT did not hear voices of the previous dragon to guide him, we also have no indication at all that he heard voices, which surely would have been commented on at some point (especially if it happened before saidin was tainted).  We only have one LTT POV, and it doesn't indicate that he heard voices.  This is a factor in my theory that this turning of the wheel is different for some reason.


created: 2005-02-15 19:15:12
subject: <b>so, LTT was in T'A'R' until rand was born?</b>
body:
does that mean there was a mad man traveling randomly in TAR? if so, i have some thoughts.<br /><br />Birgette was not seen by the aiel because she knows TAR very very well. If LTT was in TAR when he was mad, he likely wasnt avoiding being seen. so, was he coincidentally  and luckly unseen? seems a bit unlikely to me...<br /><br />and, as stated pretty often, death in TAR is final. so, again, we got lucky? if the mad soul and body of LTT was wandering around TAR, it would be likely he would eventually hurt himself. and since he was in TAR, wouldnt he never be spun out again? VERY fishy. i mean, &quot;there are definitely silverpike here...&quot;<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">-Sabin<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-02-15 19:23:03
subject: <b>Woah, somethin just hit me</b>
body:
LTT was NOT mad the whole time. Ishmael healed him with the True power, which is why he killed himself. so he wasnt mad during his span in TAR. <br /><br />so why is he mad once more as he goes into rand? thats odd... Maybe when he was exposed to the taint again, he became mad once more. wait, more silverpike. he became mad instantly, or at least quicker than rand. we know this cause he's always saying crazy things in rands head where rand isnt yet THAT crazy. so what makes LTT madness instantaneous? maybe somthin to do with it being his second time exposed. maybe ishmael didnt heal him correctly in the first place. maybe even the True Power has its limits. i dunno, someone make theory on it. im far to lazy for that <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />However, great theory!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">-Sabin<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-02-16 19:00:02
subject: <b>I think everybody is getting stuck on a couple of issues.</b>
body:
LTT is bound to the &#8220;WHEEL&#8221;.  RJ did not say he was bound to the &#8220;HORN&#8221;. Hawkwing is bound to both the wheel and the horn, at least for this age.  Who knows, maybe the roles have been reversed in other turnings of the wheel.  It doesn&#8217;t matter because this age and this turning of the wheel is the one which the story takes place.<br /><br />Hawkwing &amp; LTT probably have met a thousand different times, both as allies and enemies.  Forget the names used.  Think about like this, a blob of intelligent energy recognizes another blob of intelligent energy.  These intelligent blobs of energy have been used and re-used any number of times.  They just use the last common designation that they know (or more accurate the author uses to communicate to the reader).<br /><br />I do not think it matters of Ishy is a ta'veren or not.  Because theoretically if Ishy was effecting the pattern, and the pattern was out of balance because of him, then the pattern would have activated another entity or force to bring it back into balance long ago. <br /><br />I do not know why LTT is nuts.  I like the reply saying that he was healed right before he committed suicide, so why is he nuts and trying to drive Rand nuts?<br /><br />I am going to default to what I have always believed LTT is.  I think LTT is the pattern, or to be more accurate.  LTT is the patterns way of keeping Rand on the right path for him to accomplish certain tasks.  The pattern needs certain tasks completed in a certain way at a certain time ( I hesitate to use specific because I imagine there is a some fudge room).  The pattern can not directly instruct him or guide him because of the basic rules imposed by the creator (and because this is a fantasy series).  Plus these trials and tribulations are molding Rand and preparing him for the next task that is next in line to be completed.<br /><br />So therefore Rand can not be suffering from the wilders sickness that accompanies a beginners first channeling experience.  I have seen some theories that this sickness has to do with the TP balefire &amp; the OP balefire that crossed in SL.  To be honest I do not have a clue what is causing this sickness.  But it could be anything from Rand being bonded by so many different people.  It could be the two different evils fighting in his side.  It could be a side effect from using the access keys and melting the female key.  Or it could be that he needs Mat &amp; Perrin to meet up with him for the next big task, they are suffering similar effects. It could be the patterns way of making him be a little more cautious. Or a combination of all of them.<br />


created: 2005-02-17 18:05:31
subject: <b>About the Horn</b>
body:
It is my understanding that the Horn is tied to the Dragon, not the other way around.  The Dragon is a significant figure, heralding the end of at least two ages, (at least in this cycle).  From what Hawkwing says when he is summoned, &quot;We have come to the Horn, but we must follow the banner. And the Dragon.&quot;, it seems that the Dragon, (or more specifically the banner) is more important than the will of the &quot;hornsounder&quot;.  Note that before Hawkwing sees the banner, he remarks about Rand being LTT, so he knows who Rand is/was.  Then he tries to advance, but can't.  When his gaze falls on Rand he says &quot;You are here. Have you the [dragon] banner?&quot;  He immediately notices LTT, but only when he fails to advance does he realize that Rand is also the Dragon.  I think this means that LTT is not always the Dragon.  Hawkwing recognizes LTT who was probably spun out many times as an important figure, but only when it comes to the end of an age is LTT spun out as the Dragon.


created: 2005-02-21 07:12:23
subject: <b>I like that</b>
body:
That LTT on always is the dragon.<br />The whole theory is a good one, LTT can be bound to the horn like everybody else (Birgitte, Hawkwing...) and reborn as a hero, for isn't that really what the dragon is?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Power corrupts. Absolute power is kind of neat <br />John Lehman (1942 - ), Secretary of the US Navy, 1981-1987 <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-03-26 13:04:09
subject: <b>I like that..</b>
body:
What that kid said about how LTT isnt always the Dragon.  Eventually he MUST be spun out again as the Dragon, to signal the end of an age and to fight the DO.  But he isnt always neccesarily the dragon, or someone capable of channeling.  He is simply a hero.  Also, how could Ishmael have been respun by the pattern?  Its pretty clear that he most likely as ta'averen, but he never actually DIED<br /><br />Also, about the Horn.  I think that while it is possible that if the horn is sounded in an age where the Dragon doesnt exist, LTT will come with it, but that the Horn is specifically meant as a TOOL for the Dragon.  <br /><br />I liked your theory, I dont agree with all of it, but it helped me come to some conclusions.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Bonded to Mika<br />Nossredna's Siamese twin  (I'm the handsome one)<br />Bodyguard to Packersfan52<br />Best Bowling Buddies with Pseudo <br /><br />Proud member of the BBQ<br /><br />Perrin looks like a ninja:<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perrin.gif" border="0" />!</font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-22 17:09:31
subject: <b>the taint.</b>
body:
I believe that the taint and lewis's death both did disturb the plan for the draggon, but I do not think that that is nessasarilly why lewis still lives in his head. In the past, before teh breaking, the draggon lived. How could this be if he dies at Tarmon Gi'don? It would work if there are two souls in the body. One dies, the other lives. This is soposrted by one of mins viewings. &quot;I see too people, and I don't know how but their both you. One will die and the other live, but I don't know which.&quot; Its not teh exact qote, but it is the jist of what she says. This would lead us to believe that Lewis dies, or Rand, and the other lives on, no longer witht he memories of the other in his head. Later the world would break again, but maybe without the taint......<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Journey to the Tiger Sea,<br />Where legends die and stories be,<br />Where royalty rise and fall,<br />And Wotmania rules them all.</font><p></p>


