# w_comment

created: 2004-03-11 16:19:55
subject: <b>RE: Light in the Night</b>
body:
<b> I knew this was going to be a point of contention for a lot of people because it is one of the &quot;big&quot; mysteries of the series. While Fain does appear to be talking down to whoever is freeing him, we have already witnessed him talking to Lord Agelmar as an equal earlier in tEotW. He seems to change personas at the flip of a switch. </b><br /><br />I can't agree here. <br /><br />If you read how often Fain says his subservient &quot;Great Lord&quot; to Agelmar in EotW, ch.46, it's clear that he understands that Agelmar has the power, and Fain himself has to show respect.<br /><br /><b> The problem I have with Ingtar being involved in Fain's escape is two-fold: The biggest one is Rand passes him upstairs outside the women's apartments when the alarm is first sounded, and Rand is running for the dungeon. I don't know how many flights of stairs are involved, but that means he would have to go down, then up, and then back down again where we see him last in the dungeon. The timing just doesn't look right to me. </b> <br /><br />Well, I got the impression that Fain &amp; the Horn were already out of Fal Dara when the alarm sounded since shortly after the alarm Agelmar orders to close the gates. <br /><br />That means in my view that enough time passed between Fain's rescue and the meeting between Rand and Ingtar.<br /><br />Of course we can't be sure.<br /><br /><b> The other point is that he admits to Rand that he let in the Gray Man that took the shot at him in the courtyard. If he was confessing his guilt to that, then why not come completely clean and own up to freeing Fain as well? Ingtar wasn't sure if the arrow was meant for Rand or the Amyrlin Seat, who, in the eyes of Shienarans is highly revered. Attempted murder of her would surely be a more serious offense than freeing a Dark Friend. So why not confess to a lesser crime? </b><br /><br />If we agree that Ingtar was the Shienaran soldier at the DF meeting it's clear that Ingtar was an important DF. <br />He surely did several bad crimes for the Shadow. <br /><br />In my view Ingtar confesses to the crime he thinks was the worst he could do to betrayal Rand, i.e. probably allowing an assassin to kill him. <br />That was certainly something that bothered Ingtar for a long time, especially after Rand became a friend to him. He wants to apologize for this. <br /><br />After all, in this situation in TGH, ch.46 (the group is hunted), they simply don't have the time for an extensive confession of all crimes Ingar commited. <br />Therefore Ingtar only confesses his biggest crime to Rand. <br /><br /><b> I will admit that what you say about Fain's reaction and words are with merit. The way I see that it might have happened is Mat and Egwene were the ones that might have actually opened that door. Selene and the Shadowspawn with her probably happened upon them at just about that time. Certainly Mat and Egwene wouldn't have entered the front chamber if Trollocs were already in there. And we can be pretty sure there were Trollocs in there from the carnage and the writing on the wall. Witnessing a beautiful woman commanding Trollocs and using the One Power would most likely be enough to make the other two prisoners go crazy. </b><br /><br />The Trollocs' writings are only in the dungeon guardroom IIRC not in the cells.<br />I believe that Ingtar and a few Trollocs came to the guardsroom. They killed the guards. <br />Ingtar ordered the Trollocs to wait there (so they had time to write their stuff) and rescued Fain. <br />Then they all wanted to leave.<br /><br />Maybe in this moment they met Mat &amp; Egwene and for some reason decided not to kill them but to lay them before Fain's cell. <br /><br />Later a Forsaken (e.g. Mesaana or Lanfear) entered, and wrote the Dark Prophecy besides the other writings for some reasons.  <br /><br />After all only one person enters the cells to free Fain. <br />I can't see why either Mat or Egwene would do it.<br /><br />I know my explanation is also not perfect.<br />It's really difficult to find the truth since we don't have much information and can only speculate. <br /><br /><b> As for the interviews, I was unaware of them. But, it is just word-play on RJ's part. We see the woman about for most of TGH as Selene, then she tells us her name is Lanfear at the end of TGH, so it's only logical to call her by that name, and think of her as Lanfear for the whole book. The same with the Q &amp; A on Tor's website. She has already told Min her name is Lanfear, and at that point there is no longer any reason to call her anything else, even in TDR when we see her as Else. (You don't think RJ could call her by anything else in interviews without giving away his secret, do you?) </b> <br /><br />I wonder why it shall be a secret.<br /><br />While the answer to the mark could be word-play, I don't see this in the answer that Lanfear was Else. <br /><br />RJ could have simply said: &quot;No. Else did exist as a separate human&quot;. <br />But he explicitely adds: &quot;but was played by Lanfear after Else was expelled.&quot; <br /><br />I think if Mesaana was Else, you could hardly say that this was not a lie by RJ. <br />Everyone had to understand this as if indeed Lanfear played Else, and not Mesaana who maybe was disguised as Selene in TGH.   <br />But one should ask RJ someday about this topic to be sure. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Of course if Lanfear was Else/Selene in the WT, I think it would mean that also another female Forsaken could have played Selene. Maybe Moghedien or Graendal? <br />As said your evidence from the first meeting between Rand &amp; Lanfear in TSR convinced me that Selene in TGH must be someone else. <br /><br />But Selene mustn't necessarily be Mesaana in this case since the Else/Selene hint was the only specific connection to Mesaana, if I remember correctly.<br /><br /><b> Plus, the part where he hesitates and then says RAFO surely should raise some question marks. He was definitely hiding something, don't you think? </b><br /><br />Yeah, I also don't know what the RAFO means in this case. <br />For some reason he didn't want to say if Lanfear was in Fal Dara or not. <br />Hmm....<br />


created: 2004-03-11 20:34:49
subject: <b>Amazing!</b>
body:
Really, incredible!  This came to you.. how?  And you reference TSR, TDR, TGR, and COT (assuming I didn't miss any.)  I can't imagine the research that was involved in piecing this theory together.<br /><br />Everything makes sense now.. even the things I never even noticed.  It's a good thing you are so observant, else we would all have been duped.<br /><br />For the record, it's THIRTY pages in MS Word (without the headings and with hard returns between the five sections.)  THIRTY PAGES!  That's not a theory, that's a <b>WoT THESIS</b>.<br /><br />Astonishing good work!  <i>THANK YOU!</i><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>&quot;Those who beat their swords into plowshares will plow for those who don't.&quot; - Thomas Jefferson</i><br /><br /> PSUCOM Class of '09</font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-11 22:28:53
subject: <b>Examplary theory but...</b>
body:
First, thanks for the great read Light in the Night.  It's really impressive.<br /><br />You comforted me in my belief that at least two Forsaken plans were involved in TGH and I think that's why the novel was in appearance simple yet so tangled.  <br /><br />I'm a great believer that the Shadow plans are usually very logical but that Jordan has a lot of fun making them appear chaotic to us because more than one plans are involved at one time and we often have no clear indication of who does what until (much)later novels.<br /><br />However, I have to disagree completely that Mesaana or anyone else but Lanfear played Selene at any one time. Selene is always very coherent with the behavior one would expect of Lanfear and it's very clear to me that all her initial teasing, probing and pulling was meant to reassure herself she was dealing with her true &quot;beloved&quot; and that he could channel. <br /><br />For one thing, From Rand's words Lanfear would have figured out immediately in Tear that someone else impersonated her and approached Rand pretending to be her.  That Forsaken would have met with an accident by now - there is no way, I believe, that the egomaniac and slightly paranoiac Lanfear would let another female Chosen play her at any one time without serious reprisals. <br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>&quot;Three thousand years, and yet Lews Therin walks the world again, and these Aes Sedai all but have him leashed. Can you control him? Can you turn him? He was mine before that straw - haired chit Ilyena saw him! He will be mine again!&quot;<br /><br />She certainly doesn't mention that she's been guiding his steps, enticing him, shaping him, compulsing him, pushing and pulling him in the direction she wants him to go, like the 'Lanfear' at the end of TGH. In fact, she makes it sound as if the Aes Sedai have him in hand, not her. <br /></b></font><br /><br />I believe the explanation for this is quite simple : Lanfear overstepped herself in TGH, playing her own game with Rand while pretending to help Ishamael to control him OR Lanfear acted in secret throughout TGH, in Ishamael's back.  She certainly won't tell Ishamael right out how far she believes her own plans with Rand have succeeded! <br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Now? It sounds as though she is saying she hasn't been free for very long.</b></font><br /><br />Or it might mean she confronts Ishamael openly for the first time since her release.<br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>He was always stubborn, but this time I will shape him. Ishamael thinks he controls events, but I do.&quot; </b></font><br /><br />Here we have a typical Lanfear comment. She often reminds Rand of his stubborness.  Lanfear prides herself of her very intimate knowledge of LTT.  In the AoL this knowledge was put to extensive use by the Shadow (thus by Ishamael).  The Guide also says Lanfear was at the forefront of most plans involving LTT. <br /><br /><br />I interpret the passage about the mark in a very different way.  I'm not a native English speaker, so maybe I have it wrong :<br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>She frowned at his face. &quot;You have been marked, but no matter. You were mine, and you are mine. Any other is no more than a caretaker whose time has passed. I will lay claim to what is mine openly, now.&quot;</b></font><br /><br />I understand it like this : <br /><br />&quot;She frowned at his face, looking for her mark. &quot;You don't realize it but I've already marked you - well, it's not really  important that you know the specifics of that. What matters is that you were mine, and you are mine.  That girl I told to take care of you back in Falme was only a caretaker whose time has passed. Ishamael is gone and the DO has blessed my plans to seduce you to the Shadow, so I have no need for subterfuges now, I will claim what is mine openly, now.&quot;<br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>He stared at her. Marked? Did she mean his hands? And what did she mean, he was hers? &quot;Selene,&quot; he said gently, &quot;we had pleasant days together - and hard days; I'll never forget your courage, or your help - but there was never more between us than companionship. We travelled together, but that was the end of it.&quot; (...) &quot;You have been marked.&quot; She smiled wryly. &quot;Estates in Cairhien? I may have had estates in those lands, once. The land has changed so much that nothing is as it was. Selene is only a name I sometimes use, Lews Therin. The name I made my own is Lanfear.&quot; TSR, chap. 9.</b></font><br /><br />First it's very clear to me that Lanfear knows very well what Rand is talking about.  There is no frowns or look of puzzlement, no flare of jealousy that a Chosen portrayed her with Rand.<br /><br />My interpretation :<br /><br />&quot;Eh Eh... don't try to deny it now, I see I made my little impression on you.&quot;  She smiles wrily.  &quot;Marked you I have indeed, and in more ways than one&quot;.   Etc.<br /><br />In short, here's my theory about what happened in TGH.  I'll just throw the idea for now, the whole theory is far from complete.<br /><br /><br />- Ishamael himself, or the DO helping him, instructs Mesaana to take position in the White Tower. At the DF social, Liandrin is given a few specific orders.  Alviarin is the second Aes Sedai, the one who is shocked a little.  Why? She is told that the Chosen are free and that Mesaana will soon contact her.<br /><br />- At Ishamael's urginh, Mesaana and Alviarin launches a scheme to undermine the Blue Ajah, Siuan and above all Moiraine.  Many political moves are made in the Hall.  No doubt at Talene's urging the Greens make a radical move and join the Red Ajah in an alliance in the Hall, the first time they side with them against the Blue for a thousand years. Alviarin must have at least a well-placed agent within the White. It's not the Ajah Head so...<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="images/personalsmilies/30778.gif" />Wheel of Time Reference Library : Articles, maps, charts and misc.<img src="images/personalsmilies/30778.gif" /><br /><br /></font><p><a href="http://13depository.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">The Thirteenth Depository - a Wheel of Time Blog</a></p><p></p>


created: 2004-03-11 22:30:22
subject: <b>Forget the last paragraph....</b>
body:
It didn't belong in that post....<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="images/personalsmilies/30778.gif" />Wheel of Time Reference Library : Articles, maps, charts and misc.<img src="images/personalsmilies/30778.gif" /><br /><br /></font><p><a href="http://13depository.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">The Thirteenth Depository - a Wheel of Time Blog</a></p><p></p>


created: 2004-03-11 23:00:13
subject: <b>A couple more replies:</b>
body:
To imfunny: Actually, in TGH, the only Forsaken we see are Ishy and &quot;Selene&quot;, and at this point in time, the Shadow was simply trying to manipulate him. In tEotW and TGH for example, Ishy even offers to teach Rand how to control the Power and teach him to channel, on two different occasions. This would also be why &quot;Selene&quot; encourages him to wrap himself in the void at all times, and throws up obstacles in order to get him to channel, as well.<br /><br />from the 3rd part of your theory):<br />(Quote)1) You said that Mesaana didn't yet have a full-time persona in the WT at first... as a result, why would other Forsaken stay away? She doesn't have claim to it... Also, during several of the Forsaken meetings, we get the PoV of a Forsaken thinking that Mesaana might be in the WT... but that no one really knows for sure... if Mesaana wanted other Forsaken to stay away, wouldn't she want everyone to be sure that she's there? Additionally, you bring in the quote that Alviarin had met several Forsaken... all of this would indicate that there could be other Forsaken in the WT at some time... and would be much more likely early in the series because Mesaana hasn't had a chance to settle in...(QOUTE)<br /><br />According to Alviarin's POV in ACoS, she said that she had met others of the Chosen, (Lanfear and Graendal had come into the Tower), and Be'lal stole her away into T'A'R. So, unless they were accompanied by Mesaana, which she doesn't say, I would have to say she hadn't taken up a permanent residence there. Otherwise the others wouldn't have been wandering around in her territory. There was no need to try and dodge this fact, and so I didn't. However, if Lanfear was just recently released from the seal in TDR, what would be the first thing she would do? Look for Rand or immediately get involved in a plot to kill him in Tear, and help Be'lal get his hands on Callandor? In fact, Egwene has a dream where she sees the surviving Forsaken, some are looking to find him, some to find and kill him, and others are unaware of him entirely. &quot;Selene&quot;, at least, had no trouble finding his dreams and urging him to Tear. And from the best I can tell, Mesaana probably didn't start staying there permanently until TSR or TFoH.<br /><br />(QUOTE)2) You use Selene's quote, &quot;Suppose? I did not come to you like this, talk in this way, for suppose, Matrim Cauthon.&quot; and conclude that the phrase 'talk this way' means speaking as Selene... I think that that's not at all what it means... What she is referring to is the things that she was talking about: glory, rewards, etc... she is saying: i did not take the effort to come to your room secretly and speak to you of these things for you to say 'maybe'... that makes more sense...(QUOTE)<br /><br />It is open to interpretation, that's for sure. It sounds like a strange choice of words in any case, IMO. She even says it twice, making it stand out in my mind even more as sounding odd.<br /><br />(QUOTE)3) You speak of how Lanfear doesn't use compulsion with Rand when she's in her natural form because she wants him to come to her on his own... that's well and good, but IF she was selene, there's no reason she wouldn't use compulsion on him to prod him in the directions she wants before she's ready to reveal her true identity to him... i completely agree with you that she doesn't use compulsion once her identity is truly revealed, but in tGH when someone is in the identity of Selene, both Mesaana or Lanfear would use compulsion to get him moving in the direction she wants...(QUOTE)<br /><br />I think it shows a difference. Lanfear, IMO, is used to her good looks having the desired effects they evoke, while Mesaana is not. She is described as plain and has had to work hard for what she achieved in the AoL and was still denied a chance at doing research as she wanted. This is not to say that Lanfear might not have used compulsion if needed, but, Mesaana does it at times when it wasn't even necessary. She started doing it early and often.<br /><br />(QUOTE)4)Additionally, why would Mesaana mark him at all? All that could do was cause her trouble when Lanfear finally found Rand... It just doesn't make sense... And again, RJ answered the question in a manner that makes it unmistakable that Lanfear did the marking...(QUOTE)<br /><br />A woman walks in, says her name is Lanfear and marks him. How else could RJ answer the question put to him? Why would she do it? I myself think it allows her to find him when she wants to. Remember that Moiraine gave the boys the coins that allowed her to do this, and before they left on the hunt for the Horn she had their old clothes taken away and she &quot;cleansed&quot; each of the boys, unknown to them, for the express reason I mentioned. (She tells this to Siuan in TGH, The Shadow in Shienar.) If it does indeed allow her to track him, and Lanfear's statement of a caretaker implies this, it would be extremely useful and worth the risk, especially since Lanfear doesn't know who put it there. (In fact, in TFoH prologue, she says she thinks someone else is trying to control him, and she suspects Moggy or Demmy.)<br /><br />(for the 4th part of the theory)<br /><br />(QUOTE)More or less, any argument made almost entirely on the chapter icons, is not a very convincing argument at all... if you were looking for ways to make your theory tighter and less fluffy, this is what should have been eliminated...(QUOTE)<br /><br />It was something that I felt needed to be addressed, if only to put off arguments of that nature. Usually the icons are indicative of who the chapter is mainly about, but not always.<br /><br /><br />(for the 5th part of the theory)<br />(QUOTE)1) Remember that Lanfear is the mistress of tel'aran'rhiod (or however it's spelled) so Mat could easily have 'met' Selene for the first time in TAR...(QUOTE)<br /><br />RJ was very consistent in showing us or telling us of the times the boys dreams were being tampered with in the early books. There was never a mention of Mat having a visit from her of that nature, so there is no reason to believe she did. In fact, we &quot;Selene&quot; just once in Rand's dreams. She visits Perrin once and he stumbles into her in a wolf-dream one time, and those happen in TDR. Then he sees the real Lanfear in &quot;Daughter of the Night&quot;. There is no mention of dream tampering at all in TGH. (Ishy's visit in the mirror world was a projection and Rand was awake.) Lanfear herself only comes into Rand's dream one time in TSR chapter 50. And, if you look at Mat's POV in that meeting with &quot;Selene&quot;, he says he thought he knew her. This infers actually having met her.<br /><br />(QUOTE)2) It seems very unlikely that Mesaana led Rand to Falme and again afterwards to Tear because she gains nothing from it... Lanfear would want Rand to proclaim himself because she wants him to be powerful, and to come to her when he's powerful and that required him to go to Toman Head where the prophecies say something about his proclaiming to be the DR... It is true Mesaana helped set up the trap in Tear with Bel'al because she admits it, but the plan there was to kill him and take Callandor, not help him get Callandor...(QUOTE)<br /><br />She got close to him, learned things about him, manipulated him, and marked him as well. She got private time with him and two of his companions, and perhaps found some weaknesses to exploit later, and maybe learned some of his strengths. She also enabled him to fulfill one of the Prophecies, which Lanfear says will set him on a path to Tarmon Gaidon and lead to his death. I think it was quite successful on her part.<br /><br />After the battle at Falme, you can see that a different tact is used by the Shadow. Rand is now an open target for all the Forsaken to take shots at. This is when more or all of the Forsaken are free. Before that, Ishy was trying to manipulate him to his own plans, but now even he is out to kill Rand, and dies himself in his attempt. The Shadows tactics have changed again at the start of LoC. Perhaps the long-range plan has always been the same, though, and that is to use Rand in some way to eventually free the DO. That's my take on it, anyway.<br /><br />Final Thoughts:<br /><br />It seems more likely that Lanfear would use glory and riches, etc. to entice Mat and Perrin and Rand because that is what SHE deems important. She is all about power and glory.<br /><br />I saw those inducements as an attempt to open them up to being susceptible to the pull of the DO. All of the Forsaken changed sides because they were weak, vain, greedy, envious or seeking fame, power and glory. To give in to any of those things, weakens the forces for the Light.<br /><br />While there were lots of things that I disagreed with in the theory, THANK YOU for such a novel idea that utilized lots of research and great reasoning and for sharing it with us. LitN, you always seem to amaze. Well done!<br /><br />Thank you. And thank you for taking the time to put forth excellent arguments, too. <br /><br />I've got to go again for now, but I'll be back to respond to Etzel's comments later. I gotta go get something to eat first! <br /> <br /><br /><br /> <br /><br /><br /><br /><br /> <br /><br /><br /> <br /> <br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-11 23:40:00
subject: <b>I voted yes because of the Fain bit, but</b>
body:
I don't think that it was Mesaana. I'll agree that it was whoever was Selene. I think that the part on Fain being freed by Selene is almost certainly correct. It fits very well without any real holes that I can see and it better explains Fain's behavior. While it's not a guarantee that you're correct, I think that you are.<br /><br />However, there are far too many things about Selene that scream Lanfear for me to accept that she was Mesaana. You have done an escellent job in supporting your theory, and I commend you, but on this point you have not comvinced me. You <i>have</i> convinced me that it's not out of the question, but I don't believe it. The only part that makes me wonder is what Lanfear means in TSR when she talks of Rand being marked. I don't believe that she used the OP on him at the end of TGH - she only drew the Dragon's Fang on him - and as RJ said, for the obvious reasons.<br /><br />You have certainly made me think and it will be interesting to see how this pans out. Overall, I vote yes on the Fain half, but no on the Selene=Mesaana half.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Kalessin</font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-12 00:46:39
subject: <b>my thoughts on lanfear</b>
body:
I think that it was actually Lanny, there is no way that messy would know how to disguise the same way as Lanny did.  Also, doesn't mask of mirrors get all funky when touched or disturbed?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" />     Asha'Twan     <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br />To use no way as way, to have no limitations as limitiation.<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Lee Jun Fan<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-12 05:13:21
subject: <b>Perhaps I'm getting paranoid...</b>
body:
... but if this is true doesn't it immediately give Mesaana means and motive to kill Asmodean? Means as in ability to localize Rand anytime through the mark - it would be logical to assume Asmo would be near- and motive would be fear of Rand finding out through Asmo she'd be the one to manipulate him - she might assume he wouldn't take action against his ex, but he wouldn't have any such qualms about her. Asmo talking to Rand about all of the Forsaken would greatly enlarge the possibility of her being found out, and this also works if she knew Asmo was in with Lanfear. She would have had to kill him at the earliest possible moment to prevent Lanfear finding out she had taken on her identity, nor are any of the other Forsaken likely to take kindly to this, because they wouldn't want it to be done to them. But again, I might be paranoid. Although it is such an unlikely plot that the RJ comment of only one fan being correct in it may very well be true.


created: 2004-03-12 11:00:43
subject: <b>Re: Etzel and DomA</b>
body:
I can't agree here. <br /><br />If you read how often Fain says his subservient &quot;Great Lord&quot; to Agelmar in EotW, ch.46, it's clear that he understands that Agelmar has the power, and Fain himself has to show respect.<br /><br />Here&#8217;s a quote:<br /> &#8220;I will not be compelled!&#8221; The voice was Fain&#8217;s, but he was no longer crying, and an arrogant snap had replaced the whine. He stood upright, not crouching at all. Throwing back his head, he shouted at the ceiling. &#8220;Never again! I-will-not!&#8221; He faced Lord Agelmar as if the men flanking him were his own bodyguard and the Lord of Fal Dara his equal rather than his captor. His tone became sleek and oily. <br />And:<br /> Rand stared, goggling. It was Fain&#8217;s voice, but the words did not sound like the peddler at all.<br />And this:<br /> &#8220;He thinks a great deal of himself for a peddler,&#8221; Agelmar said to Lan over his shoulder. &#8220;I think Ingtar is right. He is mad.&#8221;<br /><br />He&#8217;s talking to Agelmar as an equal, and sucking up at the same time, which is only prudent in his situation.<br /><br /> <br />Well, I got the impression that Fain &amp; the Horn were already out of Fal Dara when the alarm sounded since shortly after the alarm Agelmar orders to close the gates. <br /><br />That means in my view that enough time passed between Fain's rescue and the meeting between Rand and Ingtar.<br /><br />Of course we can't be sure.<br /><br />It could be a close thing, that&#8217;s for sure. However, the order to close the gates has to come from wherever Agelmar is, and then someone has to go to the gates from that point. Ordinarily I would think that once the alarm sounded, the gates would be shut automatically. But, since the guards at the gate were killed earlier to let the Trollocs in, there would be no one there to shut them. And, of course the alarm was raised as soon as the invaders were spotted by someone. So, yes, it&#8217;s impossible to tell where Fain would be in relation to where Ingtar was.<br /><br /> If we agree that Ingtar was the Shienaran soldier at the DF meeting it's clear that Ingtar was an important DF. <br />He surely did several bad crimes for the Shadow. <br /><br />In my view Ingtar confesses to the crime he thinks was the worst he could do to betrayal Rand, i.e. probably allowing an assassin to kill him. <br />That was certainly something that bothered Ingtar for a long time, especially after Rand became a friend to him. He wants to apologize for this. <br /><br />After all, in this situation in TGH, ch.46 (the group is hunted), they simply don't have the time for an extensive confession of all crimes Ingar commited. <br />Therefore Ingtar only confesses his biggest crime to Rand. <br /><br />We are certainly led to believe that Ingtar was at the DFS. But, if he was, that would make him under Ishy&#8217;s control. Plus, I don&#8217;t think that Ingtar knew about the plot to steal the Horn. The reason is that the Horn was the one thing that Ingtar thought would save his soul from damnation. He rants about having it stolen and is insistent on getting it back. I just find it hard to believe that he knew very much of that night&#8217;s events. Here&#8217;s what he says to Rand:<br /> &#8220;I never knew what he was going to do,&#8221; Ingtar said softly, as if talking to himself. He had his sword out, testing the edge with his thumb. &#8220;A pale little man you didn&#8217;t seem to really notice even when you were looking at him. Take him inside Fal Dara, I was told, inside the fortress. I did not want to, but I had to do it. You understand? I had to. I never knew what he intended until he shot that arrow. I still don&#8217;t know if it was meant for the Amyrlin or for you.&#8221; <br /><br />This just looks like he had a very small role to play and was not given any information other than an order to let in the Gray Man.<br /><br /> The Trollocs' writings are only in the dungeon guardroom IIRC not in the cells.<br />I believe that Ingtar and a few Trollocs came to the guardsroom. They killed the guards. <br />Ingtar ordered the Trollocs to wait there (so they had time to write their stuff) and rescued Fain. <br />Then they all wanted to leave.<br /><br />Maybe in this moment they met Mat &amp; Egwene and for some reason decided not to kill them but to lay them before Fain's cell. <br /><br />Later a Forsaken (e.g. Mesaana or Lanfear) entered, and wrote the Dark Prophecy besides the other writings for some reasons. <br /><br />After all only one person enters the cells to free Fain. <br />I can't see why either Mat or Egwene would do it.<br /><br />I know my explanation is also not perfect.<br />It's really difficult to find the truth since we don't have much information and can only speculate. <br /><br />This is the way I see it. We know Mat and Egwene were on their way down to see Fain, but, by his POV, we know they weren&#8217;t in his cell area yet. If they were coming down the stairs to the dungeon, and Trollocs were in the guardroom making noise and killing the guards, they would have retreated back upstairs, and not continued down. (And I do believe they would have heard the men screaming, or heard the Trollocs eating their remains. They also spent some time writing on the walls.)  <br /><br />That&#8217;s why I think the Trollocs came behind Mat and Egwene. In fact, maybe right behind them, since the outer door wasn&#8217;t broken down, but instead, opened from inside with the description we have when Rand shows up. (He notes it was open a crack, and not shut and bolted.)<br /><br />I also think Fain had been visited beforehand, perhaps in his dreams by Mesaana, and promised his rescue. He knew the minute the person opened the door, it was someone to rescue him by what he says, though not whom he thought: &#8220;You! Not who I expected.&#8221;  <br /><br />And:<br /> &#8220;Padan Fain was waiting for something, something he had been awaiting for a long time. For too long. But not much longer.&#8221;<br /><br />From this, the something he is waiting for is the dagger, I believe, and he could feel it getting closer to him. (It was a something, not someone. He wasn&#8217;t talking about Rand at this point. He looks up at the ceiling and makes a different comment about him after the door is opened.)  <br /><br />Fain also mentions that he could hear the other prisoners in the cell snoring and makes no mention of hearing a commotion going on in the next room, and there should have been if the guards were being attacked by Trollocs. <br /><br />So, I think it is highly likely that it was Mat and/or Egwene coming for their visit. It would also lend credence to the tone of voice he uses to his rescuer if it were one of them. <br /><br />Another possibility is Mat and Egwene getting captured on the way down to the dungeon, and they were used to have the guards open the door. The guards could have been disposed of quickly and quietly using the Power. (Their heads were neatly placed on the table, so it might not have been Trollocs that killed them.) <br /><br /> While the answer to the mark could be word-play, I don't see this in the answer that Lanfear was Else. <br /><br />RJ could have simply said: &quot;No. Else did exist as a separate human&quot;. <br />But he explicitely adds: &quot;but was played by Lanfear after Else was expelled.&quot; <br /><br />I think if Mesaana was Else, you could hardly say that this was not a lie by RJ. <br />Everyone had to understand this as if indeed Lanfear played Else, and not Mesaana who maybe was disguised as Selene in TGH.<br /><br /> &#8220;Selene&#8221; told us her name is Lanfear at the end of TGH. So, it would not be a lie by RJ to say Else was played by Lanfear, just cleverly worded deception.<br /><br />But one should ask RJ someday about this topic to be sure.  <br /><br />Yes. I would love to have him answer this, whether I&#8217;m right or wrong.<br /><br />Of course if Lanfear was Else/Selene in the WT, I think it would mean that also another female Forsaken could have played Selene. Maybe Moghedien or Graendal? <br />As said your evidence from the first meeting between Rand &amp; Lanfear in TSR convinced me that Selene in TGH must be someone else.<br /><br />It was definitely not Moggy. She doesn&#8217;t know Rand&#8217;s name until she talks to Elayne and Nynaeve in TSR. As for it being Graendal, the weak compulsion and roughing it in the wild speaks loudly against it, IMO. And I can&#8217;t see her or Semirhage disguising themselves as Lanfear, either. Too much pride to do so, I think. <br /><br />But Selene mustn't necessarily be Mesaana in this case since the Else/Selene hint was the only specific connection to Mesaana, if I remember correctly.<br /><br />It appears to me that it&#8217;s the same &#8220;Selene&#8221; in TGH, and TDR. Too much of the conversations sound similar (especially in reference to the Horn, fame and glory.)<br /><br /> Yeah, I also don't know what the RAFO means in this case. <br />For some reason he didn't want to say if Lanfear was in Fal Dara or not. <br />Hmm....<br /><br />I think that is a telling clue right there.<br /><br />To DomA: However, I have to disagree completely that Mesaana or anyone else but Lanfear played Selene at any one time. Selene is always very coherent with the behavior one would expect of Lanfear and it's very clear to me that all her initial teasing, probing and pulling was meant to reassure herself she was dealing with her true &quot;beloved&quot; and that he could channel. For one thing, From Rand's words Lanfear would have figured out immediately in Tear that someone else impersonated her and approached Rand pretending to be her. That Forsaken would have met with an accident by now - there is no way, I believe, that the egomaniac and slightly paranoiac Lanfear would let another female Chosen play her at any one time without serious reprisals. &quot;You are Lews Therin Telamon. Oh, physically, nothing is the same except your height, but I would know who is behind those eyes even if I'd found you in your cradle.&quot; She laughed suddenly. &#8220;How much easier everything would be if I had found you then. If I had been free to&#8230;.&#8221;This is what Lanfear said to Rand at the Stone in TSR. It doesn&#8217;t appear to me she had any trouble recognizing her man, even in a different body. She also comments on how it would have been easier if she had found him in his cradle. Well, according to your suggestion, she may not have found him in his cradle, but she found him in TGH. So why did she leave for so long and only now come back? Do you know how much time has passed between the scene where he was marked, and the scene in the Stone? 198 days! Over half a year! You say she has coherent behavior and yet you would believe that after she found her man, she would just disappear from his life and then come back over half a year later? This does not sound like the Lanfear that is obsessed with LTT to me. And actually, she was confused by what he said about their earlier time together. I think she suspected something had happened, but didn&#8217;t know exactly what, or at least not who.  &quot;Three thousand years, and yet Lews Therin walks the world again, and these Aes Sedai all but have him leashed. Can you control him? Can you turn him? He was mine before that straw - haired chit Ilyena saw him! He will be mine again!&quot;She certainly doesn't mention that she's been guiding his steps, enticing him, shaping him, compulsing him, pushing and pulling him in the direction she wants him to go, like the 'Lanfear' at the end of TGH. In fact, she makes it sound as if the Aes Sedai have him in hand, not her. I believe the explanation for this is quite simple : Lanfear overstepped herself in TGH, playing her own game with Rand while pretending to help Ishamael to control him OR Lanfear acted in secret throughout TGH, in Ishamael's back. She certainly won't tell Ishamael right out how far she believes her own plans with Rand have succeeded! Why does she think the Aes Sedai all but have him leashed? He chased after the Horn just like Selene wanted him to. Shouldn&#8217;t Ishy be mad at her for what she did? Or he doesn&#8217;t know?Now? It sounds as though she is saying she hasn't been free for very long.Or it might mean she confronts Ishamael openly for the first time since her release.And I believe it is the first time, too, since she just got free.He was always stubborn, but this time I will shape him. Ishamael thinks he controls events, but I do.&quot; Here we have a typical Lanfear comment. She often reminds Rand of his stubborness. Lanfear prides herself of her very intimate knowledge of LTT. In the AoL this knowledge was put to extensive use by the Shadow (thus by Ishamael). The Guide also says Lanfear was at the forefront of most plans involving LTT. LTT was very famous in the AoL. He was &#8220;First Among Servants, and as such I think it is widely known that he was stubborn. This is knowledge all the Forsaken would have about him since they were all Aes Sedai at one time. Hardly intimate knowledge about a leader of the Hall of Servants.I interpret the passage about the mark in a very different way. I'm not a native English speaker, so maybe I have it wrong :She frowned at his face. &quot;You have been marked, but no matter. You were mine, and you are mine. Any other is no more than a caretaker whose time has passed. I will lay claim to what is mine openly, now.&quot;I understand it like this : &quot;She frowned at his face, looking for her mark. &quot;You don't realize it but I've already marked you - well, it's not really important that you know the specifics of that. What matters is that you were mine, and you are mine. That girl I told to take care of you back in Falme was only a caretaker whose time has passed. Ishamael is gone and the DO has blessed my plans to seduce you to the Shadow, so I have no need for subterfuges now, I will claim what is mine openly, now.&quot;That&#8217;s an interesting way to look at it. But why would she be frowning when she looked at her mark? In general, a frown is a sign of unhappiness or disapproval. If it was her mark, she should have been smiling and nodding her head in satisfaction that it was still there. And that is what is so indicative about the whole scene, she isn&#8217;t happy with what she sees there. He stared at her. Marked? Did she mean his hands? And what did she mean, he was hers? &quot;Selene,&quot; he said gently, &quot;we had pleasant days together - and hard days; I'll never forget your courage, or your help - but there was never more between us than companionship. We travelled together, but that was the end of it.&quot; (...) &quot;You have been marked.&quot; She smiled wryly. &quot;Estates in Cairhien? I may have had estates in those lands, once. The land has changed so much that nothing is as it was. Selene is only a name I sometimes use, Lews Therin. The name I made my own is Lanfear.&quot; TSR, chap. 9.First it's very clear to me that Lanfear knows very well what Rand is talking about. There is no frowns or look of puzzlement, no flare of jealousy that a Chosen portrayed her with Rand.My interpretation :&quot;Eh Eh... don't try to deny it now, I see I made my little impression on you.&quot; She smiles wrily. &quot;Marked you I have indeed, and in more ways than one&quot;. Etc.Again, an interesting interpretation. It looks more likely to me that she knows that whoever put the mark on him has been telling him stories. Why go into a jealous rage when she doesn&#8217;t know who is responsible and show her anger to him when she&#8217;s trying to win him over? That wouldn&#8217;t make a very good impression on him. I think you really need to ask yourself why she would have waited over half a year to come back to claim him. What kind of plans could have possibly taken so long and been so important that she never once came back to him. She certainly doesn&#8217;t show any secret plots later other than trying to win him over by showing she&#8217;s on &#8220;his side&#8221;. She could have won some points to that end by helping him out against Be&#8217;lal, but she doesn&#8217;t show up until after the fact. For that matter, you would be suggesting that she helped out in that plot by sending him to face Be&#8217;lal, knowing full-well that he had little experience with the One Power. Why would she send him to almost certain death? Why would Lanfear, who wants to share power with LTT , be willing to help Be&#8217;lal get his hands on Callandor? These are some serious issues that have to be answered.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-12 11:06:03
subject: <b>AAARRGGHHH!</b>
body:
Boy, I sure boggled that post up when I copied it from word. My apologies, but you know there's no editting on the BB. And it's too long to do it again, so you'll just have to muddle through it.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-12 12:15:01
subject: <b>Re: smallcatherine</b>
body:
Well, I don't think your paranoid. In fact, when I originally started this theory, I was going to throw in a little tease at the end about Mesaana killing Asmo.<br /><br />One thing that people always point out as a reason that Asmo was killed was to make way for Taim. They also always mention &quot; intuitively obvious&quot;, and that he was thinking of Lanfear just moments before.<br /><br />They look at all of the things except what happened the day before, when Mat brought the news of Morgase's death that sent Rand to Caemlyn. They forget about the letters from Elaida and Alviarin. <br />Elaida says she is sending an escort to bring Rand to Tar Valon.<br />Mesaana is going to use this plan to get her hands on Rand. <br />Alviarin is head of the BA and we know that Ishy set up the BA as well. <br />In ACoS, Alviarin tells us that Graendal, Lanfear and Belal have sought her out, so it appears that the Forsaken know who to contact in the Tower. <br />Asmo was also in the room when the letters were read.<br /><br />All it would take is for Asmo to tell Rand that Alviarin is BA, and Rand would never meet with the Tower embassy, thus spoiling the plan. So yes, Mesaana had motive as well as means to find Rand, and therefore Asmo too. It could also explain why the DO would not talk to her when she went to Shayol Ghul twice in the 17 day period they were waiting for Demmy to return. (He was mad at her for killing him w/o orders) And, if you want to add a twist to it, have her wear her Selene disguise when she kills him. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-12 12:19:40
subject: <b>You should ask RJ...</b>
body:
After the next books comes out someone needs to go to a book signing and rephrase the question on Tor's site:<br />&quot;At the end of The Great Hunt what did Mesaana do to Rand when she drew the Dragon's Fang on his forehead?&quot;<br />Just to see how he responds.  If he syas it wasnt Mesaana then there you go.<br />I totally agree with your theory though.  Brilliant piece of work.<br />Talk about Shock and Awe.  Geeze.


created: 2004-03-12 12:45:25
subject: <b>LitN</b>
body:
You could be right, but at the moment I don't see enough conclusive evidence which could convince me that Mesaana released Fain.<br />Therefore I stick on the easier explanation that Ishy commanded Ingtar to do it.<br /><br />Nevertheless your ideas are very thought-provoking!<br /><br /><br />But! <br />To the increasing Mesaanadunnit ideas:<br /><br />Mesaana is not even mentioned in the story before LoC and least of all appeared (besides maybe as Selene, but we could not know that then).<br /><br />We didn't know that she is in the WT, in charge of Alviarin &amp; the BA.<br /><br />That means it's really <i> not </i> obvious that she killed Asmo. <br />No one could deduce that Mesaana is the killer with the clues from the books till the end of TFoH; there are none (even less than in the weak Graendaldunnit-case...).<br /><br /><br />Of course <i> the insiders </i> know anyway that Slayer killed Asmo... <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />


created: 2004-03-12 13:29:07
subject: <b>Mesaana dunnit!</b>
body:
I personally think that Mesaana has the best motive by far (I didn't stumble on to this until about a week ago, but it least it was before this discussion). Anyway, there is a theory here (and LitN can write it better I can).<br /><br />The biggest problem (as Etzel pointed out) is Mesaana's (possibly only apparent) lack of visibility in TFOH and prior books. (an ironic point as Slayer wasn't mentioned in TFOH either)<br /><br />RJ's 'intuitively obvious' comment means less to me everyday, as it is clear that this is an expression of his sense of humor.<br /><br />Etzel - well I guess I'm an outsider <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Need a book to read - check out my blog for ideas.</font><p><a href="http://nethspace.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">Neth Space</a></p><p></p>


created: 2004-03-12 13:41:57
subject: <b>The true mark of &quot;mark&quot;</b>
body:
Is it possible that a man who writes about women who bend the truth with what they say might actually bend the truth he puts forth in either his writings or interviews?<br /><br />I'm just wondering if the word &quot;mark&quot; has multiple meanings (we don't have to wonder it does)...and that when he says Lanfear marked Rand...he just might be using a different and less literal meaning than &quot;making a visible trace or impression&quot;--we can interrpret visible as being visible only to a select few.<br /><br />So what are some of the more applicable meanings of &quot;mark&quot;:<br />As a noun,<br />An object or point that serves as a guide<br />A target<br />An inscription, name, stamp, label, or seal placed on an article to signify ownership<br /><br />As a verb (transitive or intransitive),<br />To make conspicuous<br />To set off or separate by or as if by a line or boundary<br />To attach or affix identification<br />(Archaic.) To pay attention; notice<br /><br />I find it interesting that when we re-read these passages and apply one of the above different meanings to &#8220;Selene&#8217;s&#8221; action, we can definitely come up with different interpretations of what was meant:<br /><br />Her finger brushed Rand's forehead as if drawing a mark; Min thought to herself uneasily that it looked like a Dragon's Fang. TGH, chap. 48<br /><br /><br />In a similar fashion apply some of the different meanings of &#8220;mark&#8221; to these passages:<br />(note: I&#8217;ve taken the liberty of selecting the pertinent remarks)<br /><br />For some reason though, she did not affect him the way she had;&#8230;&#8230;.She frowned at his face. &quot;You have been marked, but no matter. You were mine, and you are mine. Any other is no more than a caretaker whose time has passed. I will lay claim to what is mine openly, now.&quot;<br />He stared at her. Marked? Did she mean his hands? &#8230;&#8230;...&quot;You have been marked.&quot; She smiled wryly. &quot;Estates in Cairhien? I may have had estates in those lands, once. The land has changed so much that nothing is as it was. Selene is only a name I sometimes use, Lews Therin. The name I made my own is Lanfear.&quot; TSR, chap. 9.<br /><br /><br /><br />I&#8217;ll let you the reader draw your own conclusions&#8230;just wanted to stir the cauldron a little.<br />And I agree with kcf&#8217;s comment 'intuitively obvious' doesn&#8217;t mean much from RJ anymore&#8230;<br /><br />-JAGW <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">We really swing in the <font color="green">Green</font>...<br />-JAGW <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> --Just Another swingin'...errr...sword and never in the <font color="green">Lime</font>light.<br /><br />It ain't easy being <font color="green">Green</font>... <i>--Kermit the Frog</i></font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-12 13:48:10
subject: <b>Yeah, there's problems with Mesaanadunnit</b>
body:
Like most of the stuff I put up there in that other post. Not enough known at the time of death. <br /><br />But I think she does have the best motive because Rand's kidnapping is the one plot that starts before Asmo gets whacked.<br /><br />As far as Mesaana not being &quot;seen&quot;, I'd bet money she killed Sahra Cohvenry(sp?). <br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-12 23:19:56
subject: <b>Intuitively Obvious</b>
body:
Maybe the fact that there were good reasons to question the veracity of any potential killer makes it obvious that Demandred, Semirhage, or Mesaana are the killer.  Considering that most of the clues pointing to Selene (pre-TSR) being an imposter are present when Asmo gets blasted, perhaps it should be logical to accuse Mesaana.<br /><br />Another question about the theory:  Aginor and Balthamel could sense the SL dagger at the end of Eye of the World.  Presuming Mesaana could also sense &quot;An old thing, an old friend, an old enemy.&quot; (chapter 50) would she allow Fain to keep it?  Would she be able to sense something different in Fain himelf, for that matter?  In fact, how does she know about Fain at all?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Diomedes <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-13 09:05:47
subject: <b>Re: Diomedes</b>
body:
I went looking for the interview where RJ said it, but I couldn't find it. Anyway, he said the Forsaken were aware of the world (to some extent, anyway) while they were trapped in the seals. This is how they know the language upon their arrival. (RJ had to cover himself on that somehow, because they were speaking the old tongue in the AoL and the vulgar tongue at present.) <br /><br />So we can pretty much assume that Fain was known to all the Forsaken, since he played a pivotal role in locating the boys. I would also have to think that she would be able to sense the same evil in Fain and the dagger that Aginor and Balthamel felt. Probably logical to let him have what belonged to him, or perhaps he just took it, no way to tell.<br /><br />To DomA: My apologies for messing up my response to you. One of the main points I wanted to touch on since I forgot to mention it in the theory, was the length of time that passes between the end of TGH, and where we see Lanfear in the Stone. 198 days has elapsed from the marking in Falme to Lanfear's appearance in the Stone. Part of your argument was that Lanfear always acted the same to you from the first sighting of Selene. <br /><br />The question that must be asked is, if that was Lanfear in Falme, why did she wait over half a year to come seeking Rand in Tear to claim him? What could have kept her away for so long, without coming to check on him from time to time? Why do we see her only drop in on his dreams once in all that time. The person that claims Tel'aran'rhiod as her domain fails to use it to look in on her man? And the one time she supposedly does, she urges him toward a trap to kill him.<br /><br />I just don't see it. As much as she longed to be with her man, she wouldn't have stayed away for so long. After we see her in the Stone, she keeps tabs on him constantly, never any longer between physical visits than 42 days.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-13 20:21:46
subject: <b>Just about the whole theory seems right</b>
body:
OMG it all makes sense now!!! While I may disagree on minor points, or when Lanfear appears or whether the prophecy on the wall in Fal Dara is a prophecy or not, All 5 parts make sense, and I think you're right!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Incantrix <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-13 21:51:41
subject: <b>Well Light in the Night,</b>
body:
You've taken an original idea (hard to do with WOT after 15 years or so), albeit a pretty darned off-the-wall at first blush idea, and built a very well researched, very well substantiated, and very well organized theory around it.  And considering the probings of all posters above it seems, thus far, to be difficult to find cracks in this theory.<br /><br />Messana posing as Lanfear posing as Selene posing as Else.  Ummm.  Didn't Shakespeare do that - or was that a movie from a few years ago - no, what; it was.  Shakspeare in Love...or was that Victor/Victoria (no; those would have to involve Halima wouldn't they)??  No matter.  RJ loves to twist tales...which makes your creative thinking all the more plausible.  But...<br /><br />I want to believe what you're saying.  However, if this is the case, if Messana was indeed posing as Lanfear, I can't help wondering why RJ has gone through 10 books without throwing out at least one, small statement or clue, to substantiate it.  What we need here, is a direct Messana POV (we haven't had one yet have we?).<br /><br />As other posters have said, one of the most compelling bits of evidence is the &quot;mark&quot; Lanfear refers to after she has revealed herself to Rand.  It would seem that she should have made more obvious statements in regards to it if she had indeed made it back in TGH.  The post by Just-another-greens-warder got me thinking beyond what &quot;mark&quot; might mean as noun, adjective, etc.  Was Rand &quot;marked&quot; more than once?  You infer that Moiraine might have marked Rand, as well as Matt and Perrin, when she &quot;cleansed&quot; them in Fal Dara.  Could that be what Lanfear is referring to, or some other mark (something intuitive - female wise - that Min for instance might have marked Rand with, in that chapter &quot;First Claiming&quot;.  In other words, who's first claiming was it really?).<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Everybody's Auntie MJJ-like it or not <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br />Dylanfanatic: My Left-Handed Duckling of Darkness <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />&quot;I know something from books&quot;<br />&quot;Books? But how can you know it from books?&quot;<br />&quot;Oh you're right; I know nothing nothing nothing!&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-14 03:45:59
subject: <b>GREAT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!</b>
body:
I always thought there is something worng with that marking.<br />And I must admit you convinced me.<br />There is just one thing that bothers me - when was Lanfear freed?<br />In the prologue of TGH - the meeting of darkfriends - I noticed something.<br />Rmemember the servants at the meeting? Here is the quote: &quot;...Young men and women alike. And male and female alike, they moved with disturbing grace....the boys as handsome as the girls were beautiful. He doubted he could distinguish one from another....As the serving girl strighten frome her bow, his eye caught hers above that sweet smile. Blank eyes. Empty eyes. A doll's eyes....she moved gracefully away.&quot;<br />I am sure these are Graendal's servants, so she has to be free already and I really think that it is quite possible that all Forsaken were free at that point. If that's the case Lanfear wouldn't have allowed Messaana to use her image, if she was aware that it was happening. But maybe she was doing something else, who knows?<br />But it is a great theory and I am sure you are right.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Keeper of the <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" />The Lady Of The <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" />s<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-green.gif" border="0" />  May the Force be with you  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/r2d2.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-14 14:14:32
subject: <b>Great Job</b>
body:
Hey, that was a great and original theory.  I certainly would never have thought of it.  <br /><br />Anyways, I still don't know what to think of it exactly, and although most of my gripes have been covered by others I am still going to address one or two things.  <br /><br />It seems that the marking argument is your most convincing.  And it certainly is something to think about.  However, from the first I thought Lanfear meant that Elayne had marked him.  It is clear that Rand is in love with Elayne by this point (even if he doesn't realize it).  I think this is a perfectly acceptable interpretation of her comments.  Another thing is she repeats, &quot;you have been marked,&quot; after Rand thinks to himself that she isn't affecting him the way she used to.  I feel that this could be because of the way Elayne affects (marked) him that he no longer is ensnared by her beauty and charm.  Lanfear realizes this by his lack of reaction and then repeats her statement.  <br /><br />Now I'm not saying this is the right interpretation, just that it is a plausible one as well. <br /><br />Another thing to add about the marking.  For me there has never been any question that &quot;Selene&quot; healed Rand at the end of TGH.  So while she could have been marking him too, she might have only healed him while drawing a dragons fang on his head.<br /><br />One thing I think adds to your theory is that the whole time Rand was with Selene in the mirror world, Lews Therin never gets a comment out for an instant.  Granted Lews Therin is not established in TGH, I feel there are definately hints that he has already manifested in Rand's subconcious.  So the whole time Rand travels with Selene in TGH, Lews Therin does nothing.  But in the 15 minute exchange they have in Tear, Lews Therin comes out saying &quot;You always wanted power,&quot; or something like that.  This would be, by your theory the first time that Rand actually meets Lanfear.  <br /><br />Anyways, I really enjoyed reading your theory, I will have to reread it, and then probably TGH and TDR before I can say if I agree.  One thing I really liked about this theory is it brings a lot of dimension to Mesaana's character.  I have always seen her as a weak (perhaps the weakest) forsaken too.  If this theory is true, it would make me reexamine her abilities.  <br /><br />One other thing, I don't really understand the connection between this and your other theory.<br /><br />Nimrod<br />


created: 2004-03-15 03:43:30
subject: <b>More feedback:</b>
body:
To MJJ Sedai: I believe Moiraine was concerned that someone could have tampered with Rand in this way, thus the reason for the &quot;cleansing&quot;. If she was going to let Rand go off on his own w/o her, she didn't want any BA being able to follow him. On that same point, she infers that she will do this subtly, so he won't even realize it's being done. I think it might stir Rand's suspicions if she touched his head with her finger and he got all goose-pimply. (Or not. He wasn't aware that this told him a woman was channeling yet.) However, Moiraine used the coin as a homing device in tEotW, so we should think her more likely to do samething like that, if she was going to do it again. (Maybe his saddlebags, which the Banner ends up in, which she warned him his life may depend on.)<br /><br />As for Min doing the marking, I don't see it since she can't channel, and it definitely appears to be put on his face with the Power, IMO.<br /><br />To Doughter of Shadows: It is just the blank-eyed stare of someone under heavy compulsion. Some of the Forsaken are better at it than others. I can't see Ishy using Graendal's servants when he is instructing his own underlings for job assignments. And the person that used compulsion on Rand isn't as good at the weave as Graendal.<br /><br />To Nimrod: It appeared to me that Lanfear was just reiterating her earlier remark because of what Rand had said. <br /><br />I have also seen that a few people have said the same thing about Elayne putting her mark on Rand. I will have to admit, that this thought never occurred to me until linda_sedai mentioned it to me. And, I guess, it does sound plausible. <br /><br />My gut tells me it is something more sinister, though. The fact that we see &quot;Lanfear put the mark on his forehead in the chapter entitled &quot;First Claiming&quot; tells us a lot, IMO. Especially when Lanfear in Tear then says: &quot;I have come to claim what is mine openly now.&quot; It looks to me as if RJ was using the same words; claiming and claim, to help us see the truth of his meaning.<br /><br />Now, as for Lanfear not having the same effect on him. Initial meetings are what gives us that &quot;first impression&quot;. It forever ingrains itself on us whether we realize it or not. So naturally, meeting her again half a year later, she isn't going to have the same impact as before, no matter how beautiful she is. Plus, &quot;Selene&quot; used compulsion on him as well, to compound that initial contact. Take those into account along with his new-found love for Elayne, and of course Lanfear is going to be diminished in Rand's opinion.<br /><br />And the Healing thing. I mentioned in one of my earlier replies about the wash of Healing that Egwene got through Elayne, when Nynaeve did her weave while waiting for the Fades to come and get them. Min shows no such reaction of a shared Healing weave. <br /><br />The fact that both events happen in the same book tells me it's not a mistake by RJ. Why would he show that flow of Healing get carried to a second person earlier in the book, and then not have Min show a reaction? I believe he did it intentionally. (We can also be certain it's not a warder bond that the Aes Sedai use either. Otherwise Rand would feel awareness of her.)<br /><br />While I'm here, I'd like to thank everyone for sharing their input, ideas, and questions, too. I've been a little slow to respond to some of these posts and I apologize for that, but I make every effort to respond to all queries as I can. Sometimes real-life issues have to be attended to. If I missed any, NB me and I'll post my response here if it wasn't answered in one of my other replies.<br /><br />I hope everyone enjoyed it at least, even if you didn't agree.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-15 04:23:28
subject: <b>Makes sense to me.</b>
body:
I like the theory a great deal; I was just going through my 8th reread recently and I started thinking about Asmo's killer, and the &quot;intuitively obvious&quot; statement.<br /><br />I really wanted to believe I could figure it out, so I took a long look at the chapter where he dies, and the thing that struck me was that it was a person he could not possibly have expected to see, that would want him dead, and Lanfear is the only clear choice (he may have been surprised or shocked at another forsaken, Rand, Aviendha, Slayer, etc, but this was beyond that, IMO)<br /><br />Now, for it to have been Lanfear, it means that either A)RJ snuck her in through a back door, very early on, or it was B) someone who appeared to be Lanfear. <br /><br />The argument against it being someone posing as Lanfear also has merit though; whoever has come to kill Asmo knows of his weakened state (I truly doubt any of the forsaken would just openly attempt aggressive action against each other, it goes against their character), so there is not much need for secrecy; who knows what any of the forsaken truly look like? One could argue that the impostor feared recognition by Rand, but would he have not also been suspicious/hostile if it seemed to be Lanfear, who he presumes id dead?<br /><br />It strains my thesis that his surprise was overmuch for another forsaken, if we assume an impostor posing as Lanfear.<br /><br />Which falls back to it truly being Lanfear, early return as Cyndane, but not yet named. Sketchy, but possible. Also, where is Moiraine in all this...considering RJ's love of trickery, it may be naive to assume she has not been either in a state of amnesia, changed completely, or melded ala Slayer/Luc, in some twisted way. It is here that Cadsuane enters teh picture. She is the one of only a small handful of key players introduced late in the game, and she is very influential, and only appears after Moiraine is gone...that has always bugged me. I know I am new to posting, but maybe Light can make here his next assignment?<br /><br />Thanks for reading<br />Steve


created: 2004-03-15 14:06:51
subject: <b>One thing I haven't seen mentioned...</b>
body:
Has anyone brought up the Selene card from Precedence Publishing's card game?  I remember reading that Robert Jordan worked closely with them to make it (even giving them the names of some High Lords that hadn't been seen in the books).  Selene modifies Lanfear.  Would he have also allowed that bit of misdirection?<br /><br />Ironically, as I registered to post this, the picture for Selene came up on the side.


created: 2004-03-15 17:29:02
subject: <b>Reason why Mesaana posed as Lanfear</b>
body:
Didn&#180;t read the answers before but here comes mine.<br /><br />Rand is Lews Therin reborn.<br />Lews Therin had a crush on the &quot;young&quot; Lanfear. He didn&#180;t on Mesaana. So to make compulsion work better Mesaana (who is weak with compulsion) disguises herself as Selene/Lanfear.<br /><br />Unfortunately why she uses the disguise in other circumstances baffles me too.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">It&#180;s sometimes really inconvienient to have a real life besides WOT.</font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-15 19:49:31
subject: <b>Just Finished!</b>
body:
Again you prove to have the ability to see through the mist.<br /><br />Did Messana pose as Salene?  After reading your theory it sure seems likely, although I'm still not sure this action fits with her profile.  At the same time she was one of the best in the AOL and would have taken risks in the past to survive.  <br /><br />Ok! I agree.  Now that didn't hurt too bad!<br /><br />Thanks again for spending the time to put pen to paper.  <br /><br />Light, you prove again that you are as sharp as Lan's sword and you don't dull over time as some do.<br /><br />Great work Light!  I've never had a partner but maybe I should put you on the payroll.  Deputy Light?  hahahaha!<br /><br />Columbo.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-15 20:55:37
subject: <b>Lanfear vs. Mesaana</b>
body:
<font size="-1"><b> I am sure these are Graendal's servants, so she has to be free already and I really think that it is quite possible that all Forsaken were free at that point.</b></font><br /><br />I tend to agree that all the Chosen were free at that point.  My theory is that those buried more deeply than Balthamel and Aginor were all freed at the same time or nearly at the same time by the breaking of the Seal at the end of EotW.<br /><br />As for Ishamael's servants being Graendal's, I toyed with the idea for some time too but now I guess it's extremely unlikely.  <br /><br />-I don't think Graendal would have had the time to gather so many of them.<br />-I don't think Ishamael trusts Graendal enough or would be foolish enough to use her servants at an important meeting (they can act as spies).<br />- We see a very similar servant attending Moridin later on, quite before he renew contact with Graendal.  In fact, it was probably meant as an early clue that Moridin was Ishamael.<br /><br />I'm not even convinced it's simple Compulsion that is used on them, with their blank eyes and all it seems it could be something even more radical (e.g. a process similar to what makes Gray Men?).  Graendal's servants are heavily Compulsed but they still show emotions in their eyes - adoration and fear, etc.<br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>if that was Lanfear in Falme, why did she wait over half a year to come seeking Rand in Tear to claim him? What could have kept her away for so long, without coming to check on him from time to time? Why do we see her only drop in on his dreams once in all that time. The person that claims Tel'aran'rhiod as her domain fails to use it to look in on her man? And the one time she supposedly does, she urges him toward a trap to kill him.</b></font><br /><br />Light in thr Night, first I must state that I believe you are definitely on the right track when you say you were seing competing plans in Fal Dara and that otherwise many events don't make sense.<br /><br />I would say the same is also true for TDR and I agree it's highly unlikely Lanfear collaborated with either Mesaana or Be'lal (who both envy her).  I'll come to that later.<br /><br />In TDR, I believe there's the answer to your question &quot;why did Lanfear waited 198 days, etc.&quot;.  Perrin spies a meeting in TAR where it's made clear Ishamael and Lanfear were competing for Rand at that point, not working as allies - or at least Ishamael had figured out she was interfering in his plans and not strictly obeying orders.  My belief is that Lanfear was working against Ishamael, and being very sly at it, but as she was doing nothing &quot;wrong&quot;, as she was not a direct threat to Rand himself and as her own plan of seducing Rand to the Shadow made sense as an alternative to Ishamael's &quot;carrot and stick&quot; plan the DO did not interfere in this &quot;healthy&quot; competition.<br /><br />I believe Ishamael had a few Chosen who agreed to work with him (or they were ordered by the DO to follow his lead) but that Lanfear was already rebellious or at least duplitious when she woke up.  She played &quot;games and subterfuges&quot; initially, because she didn't want to confront Ishamael openly. I believe she also wanted to be sure Rand was truly LTT-reborn, whether he would remember her or not, whether he could channel and how much etc.<br /><br />Among Ishamael's early &quot;allies&quot; (or forced-collaborators), I would place Mesaana (he wouldn't &quot;give&quot; his baby the BA to someone who refuses to collaborate with him) and Semirhage (as far as we know, only Ishamael and possibly the DO know enough about the Seanchan to allow her to infiltrate this society quickly and painlessly). By extension I would tend to include Demandred as well as part of the Chosen who agreed to collaborate.  It's my firm belief that Demandred &quot;behaves&quot; because he's been given a great responsability and some status that flatters his ego : planify, strategize, organize all the military operations of the Shadow, in preparation of and during TG.<br /><br />I think Demandred's main responsability early on was to study the enemy and gather a team of proxies to undermine the lands' military potential without raising suspicions (Almoth Plain, Tarabon, Amadicia, the Borderlands have all suffered from his attention so far, IMO). That position would place him de facto (and secretely) above all the other &quot;generals&quot; like Rahvin, Sammael, Be'lal. Ishamael's madness (which I believe is at least partly an act to make the Chosen underestimate him) would also let him believe he has a real chance of being Naeb'lis one day.<br /><br />In any case, it seems pretty obvious that Semirhage and Mesaana at least were ordered in their positions as Demandred mused later that when he thinks about where those two have placed themselves he wonders how much the DO knew and for how long.  If the DO himself ordered Mesaana to take position in the WT and handle Ishamael's BA, I don't think she would dare leave the Tower on a scheme of her own as early as TGH. <br /><br />When Ishamael died (and I would go as far as saying &quot;when Lanfear succeeded at having him killed&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />, Lanfear declared herself openly to Rand.  Before that she remained cautious, playing &quot;subterfuges and games&quot; but avoiding getting caught. <br /><br />As for the &quot;plans&quot;... <br /><br />TGH :<br /><br />I think Ishamael put Mesaana in charge of the Black Ajah as early as the DF social.  I believe Alviarin was summoned in part to receive the news that the Chosen were now free and that she would be contacted very soon by Mesaana. That would explain why one of the two Aes Sedai there was shocked about something (they knew about the Dragon already). <br /><br />There was a lot of scheming that went on in the Hall of the Tower prior to Siuan coming to Fal Dara, rather obvioulsy bearing the mark of the Black Ajah. The 1000-year standing alliance between the Green and the Blue Ajah was broken for this purpose  - and that was duly noted as suspicious by some - they probably had no alternative but to use that to impress on the rest of the Hall the gravity of the situation.<br /><br />It was rather obvious that the BA believed they had bullied Siuan Sanche and tied her hands sufficiently to force her to bring Moiraine back in Tar Valon to face punishement by the Hall. The Blue Ajah's status was undermined for a while and if something was to happen to Siuan at that point it's doubtful the new Amyrlin would have been chosen from the Blue. The Greens (most likely it means the Black Sitter Talene) had even suggested the Reds were to be charged with Moiraine's punishement, which means Galina, Head of the Ajah, was ultimately to have a heavy hand in this (she is part of Talene's heart, incidentally).   Forcibly, Rand was to be brought back with them, as Elaida's &quot;dangerous tave'ren&quot;, or left without the protection of Moiraine he would soon fall under the BA's hands anyway.  All this is made quite clear by Liandrin's initial attitude with Moiraine - it was obvious she believed Moiraine would truly be &quot;taken care of&quot; by Siuan. They underestimated how far Siuan would dare go, and they probably didn't know how far she's been plotting with Moiraine about the Dragon.<br /><br />IMO, above the BA it was Mesaana who was charged with taking care of Moiraine and to supervise the handling of Rand by the BA for a while - but only when the Amyrlin's party reached Tar Valon.  I believe Ishamael might have considered sending Rand to Semirhage in Seanchan afterward, and have him arrived with the Corenne, serving the Crystal Throne, eventually.<br /><br />Alviarin herself managed to be one of the White delegates to Fal Dara, a clue that what was going on there was rather important - or necessitated someone who could take &quot;executive decisions&quot; on the spot.  But perhaps also a clue that Mesaana herself wasn't needed as the Head of the BA herslef was already there.  IMO, Liandrin was the field agent in Fal Dara in order to leave Alviarin free to observe and analyze.  Liandrin seemed very intent on finding Rand.<br /><br />Do we know the Chosen were involved in the BA political plot?  It's extremely likely.  Alviarin makes it clear much later that contrary to her predecessor she always follows her orders and limits her personal initiatives to a minimum. Ishamael had made it very clear years ago (torture of the whole Supreme Council, murder of the Head of the Black) what he thought of the BA taking important initiatives without consulting him first.<br /><br />If I'm right with this speculation, you may find in this plot Mesaana's first attempt to have Rand under her control, a potential source for Graendal's later comment that Mesaana had claimed she was just about to capture Rand more than just once (that you quoted in your theory somewhere, I believe).<br /><br />Also, this would put Lanfear's comment to Ishamael about Aes Sedai all but having Rand on a leash in a different light, because obviously the &quot;Fal Dara&quot; plot to get control of Rand failed - Lanfear might have been pointing out that despite all of Ishamael's efforts he has still been unable to break Moiraine's hold on Rand.  And I believe Lanfear herself may have had a role in making the plan go awry.  <br /><br />Ultimately, I believe Siuan and Moiraine's escape from the leash the BA wanted to put on them sealed their fates - and the ensuing plots failed too.   Siuan was to be killed by a Gray Man and as soon as Moiraine escaped from the party that brought her back to TV (it's obvious to me Siuan let her go yet made sure she could twist the truth about what happened in front of the Hall), Liandrin followed her and a plan B was set in motion to get rid of her.  Liandrin arranged to have her killed as soon as Moiraine settled down at one location for a little while - very possibly after reporting the failure of their scheme to Ishamael and getting a drakhar to help.<br /><br />The Horn : <br /><br />My theory is that Ishamael had ordered the Fades (and DFs?) to steal it and take it to Shayol Ghul. I don't think he wanted secrecy and I'll explain why later. Recently Jordan revealed that the Horn's powers were considered no more than a myth in the AoL.  Thus we can no longer be sure if any of the Forsaken, Ishamael included, knew of its real powers before it was used in Falme. As we don't know how famous a myth the Horn was we can't even be sure any of the Chosen but Ishamael knew much of anything about the Horn before waking up.   <br /><br />I guess it's possible Ishamael ordered the Horn stolen because he wanted to investigate it, and to find why the Aes Sedai had decided to hide it in the EotW. Or possibly he was aware of the post-breaking Aes Sedai discoveries about it and wanted to have it in SG to be on the safe side. In any case, it's interesting to toy with the idea that for scientific minds such as Mesaana and Lanfear, it's more likely that the &quot;primitives'&quot; interest and faith in the Horn of Valere would be more amusing than anything else. Unless Lanfear learned that Ishamael cared enough about this &quot;myth&quot; to have it stolen... that would certainly raise her interest. In any case, the way Selene treated the affair of the Horn in the whole book is certainly coherent with someone not understanding its real power and believing she manipulated credulous primitives with an historical artefact that funnily they believed to be more than a myth.  &quot;Selene&quot;, whoever is under the MoM, certainly showed a good dose of aloofness about the fate of the Horn.<br /><br /><br />Another interesting possibility is that the Horn was stolen not only for itself but also as a diversion, a public grand show of Darkfriend and Shadowspawn mischief in Fal Dara meant to cover up any involvement of the BA in Siuan Sanche's murder. <br /><br />New Spring hinted that the murder of Tamra and her searchers was costly to the BA, quite possibly because of the note Siuan left for Sierin Vayu.  One of Liandrin's party later claimed that she had &quot;saved&quot; the BA in those years by inducing the Reds to kill Sierin.  Galina once said it took a few years to regulate the situation that orginated in NS.<br /><br />That would certainly explain why Mesaana and Ishamael decided to wait for another &quot;perfect occasion&quot; to get rid of Siuan - and thus Galina, IMHO, started to put ideas of grandeur in Elaida's head before Alviarin could make her approach and induce her to overthrow Siuan.  I think Ishamael didn't want the BA to show his hand too much in the removal of Siuan, it wouldn't serve his purpose and he didn't want to risk a purge so close to the Last Battle. <br /><br />Padan Fain :<br /><br />He had served his purpose of tracking Rand, and I believe his involvement with Mordeth made him a dangerous man even to the Shadow - and that Ishamael knew it.  <br /><br />So, was he to be freed?  I don't believe so.  I think Ishamael has ordered him dead, but whoever was supposed to do the job failed or was too late.  After Falme, Slayer was put on this job by one of the Chosen.  While it could be Ishamael before he died, I think Lanfear was the one who commissioned Slayer to kill Padan Fain in the TR - because he was a threat to Rand and to her own plans for Rand.<br /><br />I'll throw in an hypothesis about his liberation.  I think Trollocs and Fades were supposed to take care of the guards and leave the dangerous Fain to Liandrin.  The body would have been carried away (or eaten) to erase all traces of BA involvement. <br /><br />Another possibility is that Luc/Isam was commissioned by Ishamael to commit the deed, but I think if he was supposed to be involved he came on the scene too late.<br /><br />Someone else came onto the scene and freed Fain, inducing him to interfere in Ishamael's plans by sending him toward Toman Head and by putting him in the middle of Ishamael's DFs after she convinced him this was his chance to get to Rand.  I think this someone is Lanfear, in whatever disguise she chose that day.  I believe only a Chosen could have convinced &quot;Mordeth&quot; to go along (he certainly can understand competition and backstabbing...), otherwise he would have believed Ishamael was trying to control him again.<br /><br />Why were Egwene and Mat left alive? (with their memories erased, I agree with you on that).  For one thing, Lanfear never showed any propension to be overly wasteful (as Mesaana is apparently reputed to be, in the Shadow camp) and not with tools she can find a use for later. The people close to Rand can certainly be considered useful tools by someone like Lanfear - and she tried to use the boys later on - if only to keep Ishamael from using them, possibly. If she found out that Ishamael was interested in them, she would certainly be interested to find out why too.  <br /><br />We don't see Selene taking the occasion to get rid of Loial or Hurin either, nor of any other of Rand's circle while they were in the Waste, not even Moiraine. She killed nobody to clear the way or facilitate her task. She didn't even killed Isandre, she just had her punished.  It's only when she learned Rand slept with Aviendha that she &quot;lost control&quot;. Lanfear just doesn't kill without purpose, it's apparently not in her character.<br /><br />For the rest of TGH, I believe Lanfear stayed close to Rand and studied him.  In Falme she left him, satisfied that he was truly the one she was looking for, and satisfied that he would have &quot;glory&quot; whether he wanted it or not.  <br /><br />As you pointed out she stayed away for a long while, I believe because it was dangerous for her to go too far.  it should be noted that she let him approach Ishamael on his own and did not try to interfere before the battle was over.<br /><br />Another possibility about her role in TGH, one that would be less dangerous a move for her, is that Ishamael asked her to get involved just to keep an eye on Rand before he reached Tar Valon (she's the only Chosen he could really trust to get really close without attempting to kill the Dragon Reborn). Along the same lines, it's also a possibility Lanfear was the one asked to kill Padan Fain (using TAR, leaving no trace - she's the specialist of that according to the Guide) but after studying the situation and see what advantage she could gain from it she thought she could afford to &quot;fail&quot; in this mission.<br /><br />A plot like that would offer three additional advantages.  The first is that Lanfear's involvement with Ishamael in a minor role as Rand's guardian might explain the woman in white &quot;Bors&quot; sees in his secret orders.  The second is that it explains the struggle between the Myrdraal and Fain and the zig-zaging that took place.  The third is that it could explain Lord Barthanes' murder when he failed to stop Fain from using the Waygate in Cairhien - and perhaps even worse, he delivered Fain's message to follow to Toman Head to Rand.  <br /><br /><br />TDR :<br /><br />That book is more difficult to figure out without leaving plotholes, and I guess it's because Jordan mixed in even more competing plans without giving us a lot of clues. It's only later in the series that we realized how far the Forsaken dare go against one another.  <br /><br />I believe at least four plans were involved.  Ishamael's, Lanfear's, Be'lal and Mesaana's, Rhavin's.<br /><br />Roughly I think Ishamael had decided to isolate Rand by that point, killing Mat, Perrin, Moiraine and possibly Egwene as well, Rand's weak &quot;protector&quot; in TAR..  I think it's possible Ishamael had decided it was better to kill Rand too, though it's so in contradiction with what he tried earlier and later on that I find it hard to believe he came to that solution before his moment of fury when Rand seized Callandor.<br /><br />Rhavin's role is smaller, he merely interfered in Bel'al's plans for the girls, possibly because a certain someone managed to tip his man Comar about Elayne.<br /><br />Now for Bel'al and Mesaana... I think there's a problem with the explanation that they wanted to use the girls as a bait since day one.  First, if that is so they sent them very late for this plan to work.  Though they were delayed a little, they still travelled on fast ships and yet they came to Tear at nearly the same time as Rand.  And there they were thrown in a cell, apparently without any further use.  Bel'al didn't tip Rand in his dreams, he didn't get them turned to the Shadow to lure Rand, nothing.  This big plan of Mesaana and Bel'al came to nothing.  <br /><br />There's also a little problem of timing.  When Mesaana and Bel'al launched their plan to capture Rand, it was totally out of question to involve the girls whatsoever. When the plan was conceived, the girls were not there, they were on their way to TV, totally out of reach for Mesaana who, presumably, might not even have known them yet. And nobody could have guessed Siuan Sanche would involved *them* in any search for the BA.<br /><br />The involvement of the girls seems like a last minute addition, something that was probably unecessary since Bel'al could have figured out his plans to draw Rand to him using Dreams was indeed working well.  So why would he need Mesaana to send him the girls as bait anyway???  <br /><br />The girls sound to me like someone else's diversion, an &quot;opportunity&quot; for Bel'al to use, created from the ground up by another schemer.<br /><br />Rhavin also noticed this plan was weird, and thought it was poor planning on Bel'al's part - that he didn't know how to be patient in achieving his goals, acted to early and that the three girls could well foil his plans.<br /><br />I think Lanfear made a similar reasonning about Bel'al and it's her who decided to throw the wonder girls into the equation.  It was a bait for Bel'al because she knew he would not resist changing his plans and using them when he learned from Mesaana that they had left the Tower and were possibly heading his way.  A Trap within a trap within a trap.  Puppets being manipulated by larger puppets manipulated by still larger puppets...<br /><br />What exactly Lanfear wanted to achieve is unclear.  Part of it, very possibly, was to distract Ishamael, Rhavin, Bel'al and Mesaana and spread some chaos in their plan. Subterfuges and games - occupy her rivals and let them wonder who was truly involved and what they were trying to achieve. Possibly she knew this might occupy and distract the Black Ajah in Tear too. Perhaps *she* timed her scheme in such a way that the girls would reach Tear quite late and cause more distraction than anything.  <br /><br />As it turned out, there was indeed no circle of thirteen BA awaiting Rand in the Heart of the Stone and Bel'al was left alone facing Rand. Ishamael then got killed.<br /><br />With the thirteen Aes Sedai involved I think it's quite clear Mesaana and Bel'al intended to turn Rand to the Shadow before ordering Rand to get Callandor for Bel'al.  I don't quite see what Mesaana would gain from this, except that she was possibly the one who would to get the control of Rand. It would have been all the more easy for her to control him smoothly in the Tower if he belonged to the Shadow already.  Bel'al got Callandor, Mesaana got Rand.  That's the only possible deal between those two I can think of.<br /><br />I think in any case Lanfear was nearby and ready to act against Bel'al the second Rand seized Callandor, without a circle of thirteen ready to help. Neither Ishamael nor the DO would have blamed Lanfear for killing a Chosen who attempted to kill the Dragon Reborn. No long after that the DO ordered Semirhage to send Trollocs to save Rand for Sammael - he didn't want Rand dead.  I think killing Bel'al, or perhaps even Ishamael if she was lucky, before she revealed herself might have helped her greatly to gain Rand's trust (and to argue with the DO that she was now in a much better position to turn Rand than Ishamael ever was) - it would also have helped her convince Rand he would be better with a teacher that she could provide - that she would not be able to help him &quot;in secret&quot; every time he would need her.  Of course Lanfear not much later told Rand that she would not help him (which is similar in intent to tell her she couldn't help everytime) but that was in a moment she could be accused of treachery if she did.<br /><br />I don't know, it's just an idea about what Lanfear had in mind.  I admit this makes for a bizarre plan.<br /><br />But I think it's her who foiled the Gray Man's mission by sending Slayer to kill him, saving Egwene from ? (Ishamael, possibly).  This would put the suspicion on Mesaana for a while, distracting Ishamael.  And Mesaana herself would wonder what's going on, and this would attact her attention to the girls.  Then I think it's Lanfear who planted the clues about Tear in the storeroom to send the girls that way - and she would probably have requested Alviarin's secret help to do that - if only to get the names of the BA involved. That would explain how and why they met once in the Tower.  <br /><br />To close this episode, I also think there were much easier ways for Mesaana to send the girls to Tear than to go through all the troubles of planting clues and all. She had already revealed the BA, it was a child's game for her to kidnap the girls in their room and deliver them straight to Bel'al....<br /><br />Of course, I think Lanfear kept changing her disguise (Else Grinwell, Aes Sedai etc.) as was needed and likely to keep her actions secret from Mesaana.  I believe she definitely spied on Verin's meeting with Egwene too. Afterward she merely guided them a little more, knowing Egwene would use the TAR ring.  <br /><br />If that was Mesaana I think she would have killed Verin soon after that for her knowledge about TAR and what she could teach to Egwene. Especially if Mesaana used TAR herself in her communications with her pawns in the Tower, like Ishamael did. But actually Mesaana is, I believe, the only Chosen alive for which we have strickly no evidence so far that she is a Dreamer, and we know she uses other ways to communicate with Alviarin even though using her dreams would be even safer.  That the BA were given TAR ter'angreal might be a clue that she indeed can use TAR, but it could have been for Bel'al's use to communicate with them as well.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="images/personalsmilies/30778.gif" />Wheel of Time Reference Library : Articles, maps, charts and misc.<img src="images/personalsmilies/30778.gif" /><br /><br /></font><p><a href="http://13depository.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">The Thirteenth Depository - a Wheel of Time Blog</a></p><p></p>


created: 2004-03-16 06:59:13
subject: <b>ummm... a question</b>
body:
if it was mesaana desguised as selene that he traveled with in the portal world.... why didnt lanfear say anything when he mentions it in the Stone?  im confused.... because you say that it was mesaana/selene in the portal world and cairhien, but lanfear doesn't say anything like &quot;wtf?  we never traveled together, shepherd&quot;  or &quot;what are you talking about LTT?  cairhien?&quot; etc. etc...... please help me out here =)


created: 2004-03-16 15:14:06
subject: <b>Whether LitN's theory is right, or DomA's equally admirable analysis,</b>
body:
one thing is certain. In the earlier books, the workings of the Shadow are cryptic due to the way the Forsaken trip each other up while serving their own purposes - the Great Game played by true experts. Such a lack of a master plan is a recipe for disaster as the Shadow surely found out.<br /><br />By the end of The Fires of Heaven, the Forsaken were begun to be pulled into line - Asmodean's execution was the start of it. This may well be an indication of the timing of Ishy's reincarnation as Moridin. <br /><br />However bringing the Forsaken under control of the Naebliss took over 2 books - Graendal was the last in The Path of Daggers. And they still try to disobey orders and further their own ends - Mesaana punished in COT, Demandred plotting Rand's and Ishy's murders, etc. <br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> Linda Sedai <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Proud member of the Embroiderer's Guild of the White Tower<br /><br /><b><font color="red">FAQ admin</font></b> </font>'cos the FAQ is where it's at.<br /><br /><b>Currently working on:</b> my 70th FAQ<p><a href="http://13depository.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">The thirteenth depository : A Wheel of Time blog</a></p><p></p>


created: 2004-03-16 18:22:25
subject: <b>The Mark.</b>
body:
I always took the statment &quot;You have been marked&quot; as that Lanfear noticed that Rand didn't reacte to her the way he did on their way to Cairhien.  You will remember Elayne has been hooking up with Rand durning his time in the Stone.  So Lanfear noticed that she wasn't having the same affect. <br />I see some logic in this theory, and it does make sense sorta.  I just can not accept that Messy has the guts to impersonate Lanfear.  <br />Also Lanfear wants to rule the world AND have LTT.  Of course she wants him to blow the horn.  The rest is damage control.


created: 2004-03-17 08:37:34
subject: <b>Re: DomA</b>
body:
You have some very well laid out thoughts about possible Forsaken conspiracies. I'm not going to go over each part individually, but I will bring up a few points that I think are pertinent to some of your ideas.<br /><br />For starters, you claim that all of the Forsaken were freed at the same time, and most of your analysis is based on this assumption. You believe that it makes no difference in how deep the Forsaken were placed in the sealing, and this is where I have to strongly disagree. <br /><br />From the very beginning of the series, Moiraine warns us that the seals are weakening and allowing the DO to affect the world. This in itself is an important clue by RJ. When our heroes make it to the Eye of the World, Aginor and Balthamel meet them shortly after their arrival. Here is what Aginor tells us:<br /><br /> &quot;Were bound.&quot; Aginor smiled; his yellowed teeth had the look of fangs. &quot;Some of us are bound no longer. The seals weaken, Aes Sedai. Like Ishamael, we walk the world again, and soon the rest of us will come. I was too close to this world in my captivity, I and Balthamel, too close to the grinding of the Wheel, but soon the Great Lord of the Dark will be free, and give us new flesh, and the world will be ours once more.&quot; TEotW, Meetings at the Eye.<br /><br />Clearly he states that some are bound no longer, and soon the rest will come. He also mentions that the seals weakening are responsible for this. So, obviously all the Forsaken were not freed at the same time. It also infers that more Forsaken will be released as the seals weaken further, or some of them actually break. (There is no way to tell if the one in the Eye itself has already broken.) &quot;soon the rest of us will come.&quot; That's a pretty vague statement, especially when coming from someone that has been imprisoned for the last three thousand years. He also says the DO will be free soon. Again, vague, but we haven't seen it happen after ten books. Soon, in this instance, means little as a means of judging an amount of time. It is all dependant on the state of the seals, as to when the rest will be freed.<br /><br />I would also like to point out that it is apparent to most people that read that passage, that there is a correlation between how shallow these two Forsaken were sealed, and being the first to be freed. You might not read or interpret it that way, but most people that I have seen discuss the series in a knowledgeable way, agree this is the case.<br /><br />I pointed out in my theory that Aginor mentioned &quot;endless nightmares in the long sleep&quot;, and I again made the correlation to Lanfear's claim of being buried &quot;deeply, in an endless, dreamless sleep.&quot; <br /><br />Now, given these comparisons that RJ has supplied us with, and the statement from Aginor that not all the Forsaken are free yet, we can very safely conclude that Lanfear was not free at the same time as Aginor and Balthamel. And, in my interpretation, not for quite some time after this event at the Eye.<br /><br />When we look at some of the first views or information about the other Forsaken, we learn that Sammael, for instance, didn't make his first appearance in Illian until the winter after the battle at Falme. This information comes to us from Nieda, the owner of Easing the Badger:<br /><br />&quot;I do suppose you could call Lord Brend's ascension to the Council of Nine unusual,&quot; Nieda said. &quot;Fortune prick me, I can no remember ever hearing his name before the winter, but he did come to the city-from somewhere near the Murandian border, it be rumored-and did be raised inside a week.&quot; TDR, Easing the Badger.<br /><br />As for Be'lal, we see him for the first time in Perrin's wolf dream arguing with Rahvin in TDR, Shadows Sleeping. However, he is already wearing the clothes of a Tairen High Lord at that time, so apparently he is currently in Tear, although we don't know his status.<br /><br />And Rahvin, we know, came to Andor during the same winter:<br /><br />&quot;Well, lad,&quot; Gill said, &quot;there's not much to tell. He came out of the west during the winter. Somewhere out your way, I think. Maybe it was the Two Rivers. I've heard the mountains mentioned.&quot;<br /> &quot;We have no lords in the Two Rivers,&quot; Mat said. &quot;Maybe there are some up around Baerlon. I do not know.&quot;<br /> &quot;That could be it, lad. I had never heard of him before, but I do not keep up with the country lords. Came while Morgase was still in Tar Valon, he did.&quot; TDR, To Race the Shadow.<br /><br />Here are three Forsaken whom we see make their presence known during the same winter. Coincidence? I doubt it. Two more seals were broken at Falme, and that is the most likely reason they appear now, and not sooner in the series. I know you will disagree on this point, but it is the logical choice to conclude, IMO, and why we can't tie them to any events preceding that winter. <br /><br />You inferred that Mesaana was the one that stirred the nest in the Tower before Siuan left for Fal Dara. Why make this jump when we know that Liandrin was at the DFS and then accompanied the group that made the trip north from Tar Valon? We know the decision about Ajah representation for the embassy was made before they left Tar Valon. And, from the description of the voyage, they didn't stop to pick anyone up along the way, either. They turned the flow of the river and the winds to speed their journey. So it appears they made haste.  <br /><br />And, for that matter, Ishamael could have contacted Alviarin in her dreams if he wanted to start this animosity.<br /><br />You also said that the timing was wrong for Mesaana to be thinking about using the girls, because they weren't back at the Tower yet. You discount that my theory says that Mesaana was the one in Falme. She was there after the battle and it would be an easy thing for her to learn that the girls were heading back to the Tower. Not only that though, she would be able to approximate the time of their arrival, or check on their progress along the way.<br /><br />Another problem I see with your conclusions are that you say that Mesaana was in the Tower at the beginning of TGH or somewhere in that time-frame. Then you suggest that Lanfear was sneaking around in the Tower under her nose, planting evidence and baiting the girls to go to Tear in TDR. We just don't see this type of activity of a Forsaken going into another's area like that. As far as we have seen, they go to the room that that person uses for meeting visiting Forsaken. These guys seem to guard their territory rather stringently. However, I will agree this would be near impossible in the Tower with so many channelers about. Inverted weaves on wards might provide some help in this area though. Not enough information to speculate on, IMO. <br /><br />Another thing you forget is that she disguised herself as Else and visited the girls, apparently even using her voice. This would be saying that Lanfear had been hanging around the Tower for awhile, since Else was sent home a week before the girls arrived there. She had to know her face, her voice, and the knowledge that Else knew the girls to pull off this stunt. So you are placing her in the Tower with Mesaana, and I just can't see this happening.<br /><br />But, I think the biggest difference between your belief and mine, is the idea of the Forsaken working toward a common goal from the very beginning. You used the statement by Demandred: &quot;When I think where you two have placed yourselves, I wonder. How much has the Great Lord known, for how long? How much of what has happened has been at his design all along?&quot;<br /><br />Demmy thinks that the DO might have had something to do with where they are, but in the same sentence he says: &quot;where you two have placed yourselves.&quot; So, which is it? Did the DO place them, or did they choose? <br /><br />Semirhage is the only one that looks like she might obviously have been placed, especially when we take into account the statement about &quot;her charge.&quot; Mesaana, on the other hand, is not so apparent. In CoT, she is about to kill Alviarin, when Shadar Haran stops her. He says: &quot;She can be useful, I would not want the Black Ajah destroyed.&quot;<br />&quot;Who are you to challenge one of the Chosen?&quot; Mesaana demanded.<br /><br />From these comments, we can see that Mesaana is rather cavalier about the survival of the BA, while Shadar Haran wants it preserved. This indicates much the same type of independent thinking that we see from most of the Forsaken for the better part of the series.<br /><br />In the Prologue of TFoH, Graendal says this: &quot;Nearly half the surviving Chosen in one place. And no one trying to kill anyone. Who would have expected it before the Great Lord of the Dark returns? Ishamael did manage to keep us from one another's throats for a time, but this....&quot;<br /><br />Now, a couple of things that I would note here are that she is surprised that they are all in one place and not trying to kill each other. This shows me the attitude we have come to expect of these characters. Looking out for their own interests, ahead of the DO's. The other point is she says that Ishy managed to keep them from each others throats. Not that he brought them together into a cohesive unit. He just kept them from warring with each other. That's all.<br /><br />This is further put forth by Rahvin in the same Prologue:<br />&quot;The Chosen had plotted among themselves for position up to the day Lews Therin had imprisoned them in sealing up the Great Lord's prison, and they had begun again the day they were freed. He just had to be sure Lanfear's plot did not disrupt his own plans.&quot;<br /><br />This is exactly how the Forsaken act and think throughout the series. Plotting against each other from the time they are released from the seals. We see them willing to work with one another, but only if it doesn't interfere with their own designs.<br /><br />I will commend you on some great ideas about some rather devious schemes. You have some great insights, I believe, and no doubt you might be right about some of them. However, we seem to not see eye-to-eye on some basic issues in the storyline, and I guess we will just have to agree to disagree about those.<br /><br />I also realize I didn't cover everything that you mentioned. My apologies for that. I'm tired, and I'm going to bed. We can continue the debate later if you'd like.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-17 15:43:13
subject: <b>tangent</b>
body:
DomA - first, I liked the analysis and can't wait to see your contributions to the theory post (hint, hint)<br /><br />You speak of several (conflicting) plots clashing at Falme. In ACOS, when Carridin is speaking with Mili Skane (just before Sammael shows up), he sees Mat watching his palace. Then he goes into a flashback (at least I it is a flashback) about the orders that Ishy gives him at the DF social. It is relating to Mat and the horn - this implies that Ishy's plot involved leading Mat into blowing the horn. Quite interesting - it sounds like something that you can imcorporate.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Need a book to read - check out my blog for ideas.</font><p><a href="http://nethspace.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">Neth Space</a></p><p></p>


created: 2004-03-17 19:23:09
subject: <b>Carridin and his implanted visions and for LitN</b>
body:
kcf :  I'll have to read that passage in AcoS again - I know which one you're talking about but I don't remember all the details - I'm too engrossed in the beginning of the series right now.  Thanks for the reminder.  I've tried to write down theories a few time and there's one or two I might even succeed at finishing. I'm extremely bad at condensing my ideas in English - I can make short and to the point only in my native French, I fear...  One I collect quotes for (the DF social vs. the Forsaken vs. the biographies in the Guide) is also very long to finish since I note down the evidences as I re-read the books...<br /><br />About the ACoS passage :<br /><br />One thing I want to check again is if we know for sure that the secretely &quot;implanted&quot; orders mentionned in ACoS were given at the DF social to Carridin or if the wording of the chapter leaves open the less obvious but more interesting possibility that Ishamael gave him new orders using Carridin's dreams *after* the fiasco in Falme - because Carridin was in the area and could take immediate action against Mat if he came upon him.  It would be during the time when Rand and co. had disappeared, before the Forsaken apparently pinpointed their location again (i.e. that would be at the beginning of TDR).<br /><br />According to my interpretation of the first three novels, it's only after Falme that Ishamael decided to kill Mat, Perrin, Egwene and Moiraine - and, it appears, Rand.  <br /><br />Presumably, it's truly Ishamael who sent a Fade to give Carridin orders to kill Rand early on in TDR. I would speculate Carridin could have received new secret orders regarding Mat after the events of Falme but before this visit by the Fade. Possibly Ishamael wanted those orders about the Horn to remain secret even within the Shadow camp (so that Demandred or Mesaana didn't decide to seize Mat and the Horn for their own purposes, for instance).  <br /><br />I kind of hope that the chapter 15 in ACoS can be read this way and that we're mistaking when we assume Carridin's visions were implanted at the DF social, otherwise it's not only my own explanation that has a new hole to fill in it but LitN's most-interesting theory is also all based on the fact the stealing of the Horn and its sending north to SG is a different scheme (and we both assign this plan to Ishamael, most likely) than the freeing of Padan Fain (by &quot;Selene&quot;, we also both agree on this point).  If Ishamael foresaw the Horn *and* the dagger coming near Carridin on Toman Head as far back as the DF social, me and LitN both have a bit of work to do to incorporate that - and I believe it's also a big part of his argumentation that Mesaana had to use Lanfear's identity to cover up her true identity from the other Forsaken active in Fal Dara - and the freeing of Fain.<br /><br />The &quot;two schemes&quot; theory in TGH is something (and not the only one) I most definitely agree on with Light in the Night, even though I'm still unconvinced about the identity of &quot;Selene&quot; and the &quot;mark&quot; argument.<br /><br />Hopefully there could be alternate explanations about Carridin's visions, however.<br /><br />A few things don't make sense at all if Ishamael foresaw Mat using the Horn on Toman Head.<br /><br />First, this meant trouble for the Seanchan invasion, postpone the Return, etc. - and why would he want that to happen?  <br /><br /><br />Secondly, Ishamael could face Rand at any time after he left Fal Dara, there was no reason that he brought Rand to Toman Head to achieve that.  <br /><br />Actually, one reason would be that a prophecy or another had to be fulfilled and that Ishamael manipulated Rand so that it happened the way it was supposed to and that it somehow involved Mat and the Horn (to force Rand to reveal himself?).   But that leaves big holes, a major one being that the timing was extremely ill-chosen for a scheme like that on Toman Head, right in the middle of the Hailene.  There were easier and much safer ways than using Fain to achieve that too. Or the timing of the Hailene's arrival and their securing of the lands for the Corene to start should have been different. If anything, Ishamael would have expected Rand earlier, following Fain's trail closely (Rand was delayed in the Portal Worlds, etc.), at the time the Hailene was still relatively recent (unless I'm mistaking)<br /><br />A third problem with Ishamael wanting Rand to come to Toman Head is that he ordered Suroth/Liandrin to capture Egwene and Nynaeve but also to send them to Seanchan ASAP. Possibly, he intended them to be bait to bring Rand to go to Seanchan after he reached Toman Head. Why then let Mat sound the Horn and have the heroes interfere in all that scheme? Why did he fought Rand then? Something doesn't work.<br /><br />My theory is that Rand was not expected to come to Toman Head, at least not by Ishamael, nor was Mat supposed to sound the Horn. As for the girls, I still believe they were to be sent to Seanchan for when Semirhage had gained control of Tuon and serve their purpose only later, brought back to the Westlands with the Corenne.  <br /><br /><br />Light in the Night -  Thanks a lot for the thoughtful answer.  I'll certainly get back to this as soon as I have a bit more time.  You've made some good points, but on others I disagree with the interpretation (valid as well as mine) you pick for specific quotes.  I included Mesaana in my plot (as Ishamael's &quot;helper&quot;, whether she knew that or not) only because the scheme in the Tower was the logical political beginning to what continued there later on - it's also quite possible Alviarin took care of everything herself at that time, with Ishamael - and that would include taking care of a captured Rand in TV.   <br />as<br />My views of the trapping of the Chosen vs. the Seals also differ on a few points (minor, as it turns out) with yours. I'll have to get back to you to explain this because it touches the pattern I see in the DF social in TGH and *this* could be long...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="images/personalsmilies/30778.gif" />Wheel of Time Reference Library : Articles, maps, charts and misc.<img src="images/personalsmilies/30778.gif" /><br /><br /></font><p><a href="http://13depository.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">The Thirteenth Depository - a Wheel of Time Blog</a></p><p></p>


created: 2004-03-17 21:49:07
subject: <b>DF social</b>
body:
I think Carridin was given implanted orders about Toman Head, including the Horn. It has not been considered in either DomA's or Light's theories.<br /><br />Quote:&quot;An armored man in a brutal helm. shaped like an insect, raised a sword and plunged to one side, beyond his view. A horn, curled and golden, came hurtling out of the far distance. <i>One piercing note it sounded</i> (italics mine) as it flashed toward him, tugging his soul. &quot;<br /><br />Seanchan and the Horn being sounded. This probably means Falme.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> Linda Sedai <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Proud member of the Embroiderer's Guild of the White Tower<br /><br /><b><font color="red">FAQ admin</font></b> </font>'cos the FAQ is where it's at.<br /><br /><b>Currently working on:</b> my 70th FAQ<p><a href="http://13depository.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">The thirteenth depository : A Wheel of Time blog</a></p><p></p>


created: 2004-03-18 05:52:37
subject: <b>More stuff:</b>
body:
(QUOTE)Secondly, Ishamael could face Rand at any time after he left Fal Dara, there was no reason that he brought Rand to Toman Head to achieve that.(QUOTE)<br /><br />I agree with this. <br /><br />(QUOTE)Actually, one reason would be that a prophecy or another had to be fulfilled and that Ishamael manipulated Rand so that it happened the way it was supposed to and that it somehow involved Mat and the Horn (to force Rand to reveal himself?). But that leaves big holes, a major one being that the timing was extremely ill-chosen for a scheme like that on Toman Head, right in the middle of the Hailene. There were easier and much safer ways than using Fain to achieve that too. Or the timing of the Hailene's arrival and their securing of the lands for the Corene to start should have been different. If anything, Ishamael would have expected Rand earlier, following Fain's trail closely (Rand was delayed in the Portal Worlds, etc.), at the time the Hailene was still relatively recent (unless I'm mistaking)(QUOTE)<br /><br />If I recall correctly, Siuan had heard rumors about something going on at Toman Head and sent a rider there while she was at Fal Dara. So, the Seanchan had been there 4-5 months approximately before Rand arrived. (Maybe longer)<br /><br />(QUOTE)A third problem with Ishamael wanting Rand to come to Toman Head is that he ordered Suroth/Liandrin to capture Egwene and Nynaeve but also to send them to Seanchan ASAP. Possibly, he intended them to be bait to bring Rand to go to Seanchan after he reached Toman Head. Why then let Mat sound the Horn and have the heroes interfere in all that scheme? Why did he fought Rand then? Something doesn't work.(QUOTE)<br /><br />Yes, this doesn't add up. No way Ishy would want Rand and his fellow ta'veren (along with the Horn), at Falme while Egwene and Nynaeve were still there. Another factor has to be that Suroth wasn't in charge in Falme, Turak was. There were Seanchan ships in the harbor that could have taken the girls across the ocean, but apparently none going back to Seanchan at that time. So Egwene's departure was delayed either for that reason, or Suroth was holding out hoping to capture Nynaeve and send them both, as she was supposed to.<br /><br />(QUOTE)My theory is that Rand was not expected to come to Toman Head, at least not by Ishamael, nor was Mat supposed to sound the Horn. As for the girls, I still believe they were to be sent to Seanchan for when Semirhage had gained control of Tuon and serve their purpose only later, brought back to the Westlands with the Corenne.(QUOTE)<br /><br />I agree here as well. <br /><br /><br />(QUOTE)Light in the Night - Thanks a lot for the thoughtful answer. I'll certainly get back to this as soon as I have a bit more time. You've made some good points, but on others I disagree with the interpretation (valid as well as mine) you pick for specific quotes. I included Mesaana in my plot (as Ishamael's &quot;helper&quot;, whether she knew that or not) only because the scheme in the Tower was the logical political beginning to what continued there later on - it's also quite possible Alviarin took care of everything herself at that time, with Ishamael - and that would include taking care of a captured Rand in TV. <br />as<br />My views of the trapping of the Chosen vs. the Seals also differ on a few points (minor, as it turns out) with yours. I'll have to get back to you to explain this because it touches the pattern I see in the DF social in TGH and *this* could be long(QUOTE)<br /><br />As for the Horn. If you will recall, when Ishy is battling Rand in Falme, he tells him that now that he has blown the Horn, he is tied to it until death. This definitely tells us Ishy didn't know that Mat blew the Horn. I believe it's also more evidence that he wasn't the one to get Rand to come to Falme, as well. <br /><br />I looked at the passage from ACoS again and what I interpret from it is implanted memories from Ishy to Carridin that were set to be recalled in the event that he came into contact with one of the three boys. What he sees in those visions are the things associated with Mat. First, he sees the image of Mat glowing, to remind him of which of the three he is seeing. It doesn't show Mat blowing the Horn, it's just the Horn hurtling toward him, (Carridin), and then he hears it being sounded. Then it shows the dagger with the ruby. So the obvious question to be asked is why or how could Ishy implant this future vision of the Horn in association to Mat, when he thinks that Rand blew it in Falme? <br /><br />This is just my opinion, but, we know from the dreamwalker Wise Ones that not everything that is seen in dreams is 100% sure to happen. Perhaps Ishy simply downloaded a bunch of possible scenarios to Carridin? I know that sounds crazy, but he was given some specific instructions to follow, so what is the use of the other implanted memories, like the Seanchan soldier that Linda pointed out? It seems that it's possible that these are alternate plans or, what-ifs. If such and such happens, then you do this instead. <br /><br />I don't know, that's just some wild guessing there.<br /><br />Anyways, DomA, I saw a recent post of yours on the wotMB a few weeks ago, that set down what you saw as a pattern of foreshadowing of the individuals attending the DFS. I didn't respond then as I was busy on this, but I found some of your conclusions very valid. I believe, like you, that RJ didn't just choose to show us a bunch of random Darkfriends at that meeting. Some, we were surely destined to meet again, if not all. And some things that came from that were meant to throw us off the scent, like Moiraine being gone at the same time. <br /><br />I look forward to continuing this with anyone that follows along and contributes. I often find BB discussions more revealing than the MB, and, I try to keep my mind open to the fact that not everyone interprets passages the way I do. RJ writes in such a way that we can't be sure exactly what he meant, and that is why I love the theory post so much. Nothing is absolute here, it's just educated guesses backed up with what we thought we read. If I ever come off sounding defensive, it's only a natural reaction of my belief that I am right about what I wrote. I know I'm not infallable, as one of my earlier theories has already been proven wrong.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-19 23:18:30
subject: <b>Back to &quot;marks&quot;...</b>
body:
Well, DomA's a hard act to follow (great food for thought; and I think my head hurts; I need to eat!), but I'm on a current re-read, and I just re-read this in TDR, A Hunter's Oath.  This is when Zarine/Faile insists on staying with  Perrin, Loial, Moiraine, and Lan right after they all arrive in Illian.  Moiraine says she can, only if she swears by her Hunter's oath to do as Moiraine says, ask no questions, etc.:<br /><br />&quot;Zarine stood up straighter and held her head high.  'Very well, then.  I swear, by the oath I took as a Hunter.  If I break one, I will have broken both.  I swear it!'  'Done,' Moiraine said, touching the younger woman's forehead; Zarine shivered.&quot;<br /><br />What do you make of that?  A &quot;cleansing&quot;, or a &quot;mark&quot; of some sort, or both?<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Everybody's Auntie MJJ-like it or not <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br />Dylanfanatic: My Left-Handed Duckling of Darkness <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />&quot;I know something from books&quot;<br />&quot;Books? But how can you know it from books?&quot;<br />&quot;Oh you're right; I know nothing nothing nothing!&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-20 09:39:50
subject: <b>Re: MJJ Sedai</b>
body:
Odd that I missed that reference in my search, but, here's my take on it. Before Moiraine marks her, she goes through a whole list of things that she tells Faile she must agree to, to become one of their group. These include following her instructions without question, go where they go, and that she can't leave once she knows to much about their mission.<br /><br />When Faile agrees, then she marks her. Later, when Moiraine finds out about Sammael being in Illian, she asks Faile once more if she wants to leave, saying she would give her one more chance to go another way. Faile refuses, insisting she will stay with them.<br /><br />Then as they are about to leave, Perrin blurts out that Rand is the Dragon Reborn. This is when Moiraine tells Faile: &quot;You are sealed to us, now. There is no turning back for you, Ever.&quot;<br /><br />So, I guess you could look at the mark as accepting Faile's oath and &quot;claiming&quot; her allegiance. <br /><br />At least that's the way I see it. <br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-20 21:04:03
subject: <b>Re: Light in the Night; &quot;Marks&quot;</b>
body:
<font size="-1"><b>Odd that I missed that reference in my search, but, here's my take on it. Before Moiraine marks her, she goes through a whole list of things that she tells Faile she must agree to, to become one of their group. These include following her instructions without question, go where they go, and that she can't leave once she knows to much about their mission<br /><br />When Faile agrees, then she marks her. Later, when Moiraine finds out about Sammael being in Illian, she asks Faile once more if she wants to leave, saying she would give her one more chance to go another way. Faile refuses, insisting she will stay with them.<br /><br />Then as they are about to leave, Perrin blurts out that Rand is the Dragon Reborn. This is when Moiraine tells Faile: &quot;You are sealed to us, now. There is no turning back for you, Ever.&quot;<br /><br />So, I guess you could look at the mark as accepting Faile's oath and &quot;claiming&quot; her allegiance. <br /><br />At least that's the way I see it.</b></font> <br /><br />But might that not be evidence that the mark Lanfear refers to as she looks at Rand's face later on in Tear is a different, second mark, from the one given him in Falme?  A mark of the Light as opposed to the one of the Shadow given him in Falme?  A little more evidence to support a second mark, rather than one that Lanfear never gave in the first place (Mesaana rather)?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Everybody's Auntie MJJ-like it or not <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br />Dylanfanatic: My Left-Handed Duckling of Darkness <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />&quot;I know something from books&quot;<br />&quot;Books? But how can you know it from books?&quot;<br />&quot;Oh you're right; I know nothing nothing nothing!&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-22 01:45:37
subject: <b>Re: MJJ Sedai</b>
body:
Before the boys were to leave Fal Dara, Moiraine said she was going to &quot;cleanse&quot; them, in such a way that they wouldn't even know that it had been done. I took this to mean that she would be very subtle in doing this, and poking them in the middle of the forehead for any reason wouls hardly fit that description.<br /><br />As to when he gets marked in Falme later, &quot;Lanfear&quot; makes no mention of another mark at that time. If Moiraine did it in Fal Dara, then why didn't &quot;Lanfear&quot; say something about it in Falme instead of waiting until she sees him again in Tear?<br /><br />Moiraine marking Faile looks more like she was concerned that a new member of their group, an unknown, might betray them to the Shadow. In fact, she had threatened to leave Faile bound against being able to leave Illian and follow them before she took that oath from her. I see no reason that she would have this kind of concern for Rand, Mat or Perrin betraying themselves. <br /><br />If she was concerned about losing track of them, she could have done something like she did before with the coins. But, we know for a fact that Moiraine didn't do any marking of Rand. This is why Lan has to follow his tracks as they chase after him on his way to Tear. Even though she had a pretty good idea that he was going to Tear from the dream clues and Rand's note, she still thought it necessary to stay on his trail. If she had marked him, she wouldn't have been so concerned about losing track of him, IMO. The ta'veren effect that Rand leaves in villages along the way, is how she verifies that they are on the right track, several times, IIRC.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-22 13:42:21
subject: <b>Re: Light in the Night; Marks</b>
body:
Your reply above sounds reasonable.  Just trying to cover all the bases... <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Everybody's Auntie MJJ-like it or not <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br />Dylanfanatic: My Left-Handed Duckling of Darkness <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />&quot;I know something from books&quot;<br />&quot;Books? But how can you know it from books?&quot;<br />&quot;Oh you're right; I know nothing nothing nothing!&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2004-05-18 12:04:24
subject: <b>Confirmed by RJ who released Fain</b>
body:
I thought that I would throw in recent info from an interview RJ did with some wotmaniacs.<br /><br />RJ flat out said that Ingtar released Fain.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Need a book to read - check out my blog for ideas.</font><p><a href="http://nethspace.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">Neth Space</a></p><p></p>


created: 2004-05-19 12:49:40
subject: <b>OK, time for admitting my mistake...</b>
body:
As most people have probably read the wotmania/RJ interview, he has flat-out stated it was Ingtar that freed Fain, thus making the main thrust of this theory wrong.<br /><br />OTOH, he did not say which Forsaken it was that ordered Ingtar to actually free him. I will stick by my claims on this one until RJ says otherwise, that it was &quot;Selene&quot; that gave that order.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2004-05-19 22:44:57
subject: <b>Selene in tDR</b>
body:
I'm too lazy to read the other posts so this might have been pointed out already, but I have a sort of a question, that people may be able to clear up or not.  I had always assumed (of course) that Selene and Lanfear were one and the same throughout every book.  There's a quote coming from Lanfear in tSR in the chapter 'An Offer Refused' that, if I interpreted it correctly, would support the fact that Lanfear actually was the Selene that we see talking with Mat in tDR.<br /><br />Disguised as Keille the peddler, she offers to sell Isendre to Mat for a Tar Valon mark and causes a bit of trouble.  After Isendre leaves, Lanfear says to Mat, &quot;Few men have ever refused an offer from me once, much less twice.&quot;<br />I assume this means that she had made an offer to him previous to this moment that he also refused.<br /><br />Unless Lanfear, as Keille, offered something else to Mat in this book (can anyone find a part where she does?) I would say that she would have to be talking about her offer to him in tDR - to gain him glory in exchange for her use of him - which he obviously never took up.<br /><br />So...what does this mean?<br />Any takers?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> The wheel weaves...and weaves...and weaves...and weaves <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /> It's time for a showdown <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gholam.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-05-20 02:42:47
subject: <b>Re: Toy of Talmanes</b>
body:
You are remembering the scene wrong. If you had read the previous BB posts, you would have saw that it was brought up as an argument and I provided the full sequence of events from the book. <br /><br />Simply stated, she offered him the hat, and Mat hesitated in accepting the offer.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2004-05-20 15:17:48
subject: <b>Thanks</b>
body:
Well...I'm not sure if I can accept it, as Mat never actually refused the offer.  I like the whole theory though, as it explains some lines that I never understood (they make sense now!  Yes!) and I think you've been very observant, so sure.  Why not.  I want to believe in it, therefore I'll go with your explanation.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> The wheel weaves...and weaves...and weaves...and weaves <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /> It's time for a showdown <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gholam.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-08-28 13:58:52
subject: <b>Very very very impressive!!</b>
body:
You made me change my mind, I was so sure about Lanfear. But with your analysis, Mesaana is surely the one!<br /><br />Are you a police officer in real life?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="purple">Lady Isa</font><br /><br /><font color="pink">nominated WoTboard's Moiraine AND Mesaana</font><br /><font color="blue">Member of the Fearsome Four</font><br /><font color="crimson">Bonded to Sidious and Phil</font><br /><font color="green">Cindy is one <i>Green</i> Redneck</font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <font color="violet"><b>July 12th 2008</b></font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-10-08 18:58:29
subject: <b>Rand al'Thor himself</b>
body:
This is an excellent theory, and I especially enjoyed the dialogue between LitN and DomA in the blackboard posts.  However, I can't agree for many reasons, most of which have been addressed above, more eloquently than I could have ever done (DomA, you are awesome, btw).  I do think, though, that there is one point that has not been made: the fact that Rand HIMSELF has changed between the second and fourth books.<br /><br />One of LitN's arguments is that Lanfear's MO is different between TGH and TSR (fame/glory for Rand in TGH, while power for Rand and indirectly for herself in TSR).  However, you have to remember that (I'm assuming, of course that Selene=Lanfear, not Mesaana) Lanfear has been keeping a close watch over him through his dreams.  She knows whats been going on.  And Rand has changed a lot in the what, 198 days or whatever long it's been between the last Selene appearance and the first Lanfear appearance.<br /><br />In TGH, Rand is still a shepherd.  He is changing into the Dragon, yes (Perrin remarks on how he begins to treat Verin and Ingtar like equals), but for all purposes, he is just a boy.  Now, I don't know how old you guys are, but a girl like Selene could probably talk me into doing anything.  I agree with LitN in that Selene used Compulsion on Rand to overcome the &quot;Two Rivers Stubbornness,&quot; but look at it from Lanfear's perspective.  She's an oh-so-hot girl just Rand's age urging him to get fame and glory.  Sound like a pretty good carrot for a 19-year old to me.<br /><br />Now look at Rand in TSR.  Wow, has he changed.  Even Egwene, the uttery unobservant, remarks upon it ( &quot;Hard Heads&quot;, TSR).  Rand is the Dragon Reborn, more than in just the name.  He feels the duty pressing down upon him.  TSR is the first book when he quotes that Shienarian saying, &quot;Death is lighter than a feather, duty heavier than a mountain.&quot;  Lanfear's tactic for &quot;fame and glory&quot; will no longer work on Rand.  He's the DRAGON REBORN, for heaven's sake.  He's got all the fame he needs.  Lanfear's new carrot is the power.  Rand is scared about his fate.  This is obvious -- one of the three questions he asks the Snakes in the redstone ter'angreal is if there is a way he can survive the Last Battle.  Lanfear first tempts him with avoidance of that fate -- the kneeling to the Dark One and avoiding the Last Battle.  Then she talks about how he can go around the prophecies and just conquer the Dark One, heck the Creator, even, with the Choedan Kal.  Remember, Rand doesn't WANT to be the Dragon.  Lanfear figures that one of these two ways to get around his fate should convince him to side with her.<br /><br />So, Lanfear is one tricky customer.  She acknowledges that Rand isn't a little boy with hormones raging anymore, and addresses him AS the Dragon.  Not a dual personality, or a conspiracy by RJ to convince us that Selene was Mesaana or anybody else.  Simply a change of tactics.


created: 2004-10-13 23:59:27
subject: <b>Re: AgingComputer</b>
body:
I'm glad you enjoyed the theories. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> It took an enormous amount of time and effort to compile all of it.<br /><br />I do have one small correction to make about one of your statements. You say that you know Lanfear kept an eye on Rand through his dreams. In fact, all we know is that &quot;Selene&quot; came into his dreams and influenced them, by encouraging him to go to Tear and take Callandor. <br /><br />Nowhere in my editions is there evidence that &quot;Lanfear kept an eye on him&quot;, in his dreams. <br /><br />The reason I take exception to this, is I see a distinct difference between the two. While looking in on someones' dreams can give you an idea of their subconscious thoughts, influencing them does not. Interfering with the dream is a means of controlling that person, plain and simple, not a form of passive &quot;watching&quot;.<br /><br />I do not deny that Rand changed quite a bit from TGH to TSR. He certainly came into his own, and matured quite a bit. He is also not so naive anymore, and realizes that people will want things from him now that he is the DR. One thing that didn't change, however, is his non-desire for fame, glory or power. Too bad that Lanfear didn't learn this in the AoL; she could have saved herself a lot of heartbreak.<br /><br />You did put in a disclaimer of sorts, &quot;taking for granted that Selene=Lanfear&quot;, you said. For myself, I don't take anything for granted, especially since RJ just told us about the DO &quot;marking&quot; his Forsaken, in a Q&amp;A at Tor.com. I think that the idea of Elayne &quot;marking&quot; Rand is even less believable, now. <br /><br />Of course, it's hard to change people's minds once they are already made up. But, if you at least considered this theory was possible, if improbable, then my mission was a success. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2005-01-25 17:11:04
subject: <b>Y O U A R E S I C K ! !</b>
body:
I haven't read your theory yet, but before i start, I just have to say this: You are one SICK wotmaniac!!!!!!!!!!!!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perplexed.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smackhead.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /> LLT <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-04-16 11:36:31
subject: <b>Sorry... But I'll have to say you are wrong</b>
body:
This is from the monthly questions to RJ on Tor's website... I kind of think it ruins your theory somewhat. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/frown.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Robert Jordan Answers:<br /><br />A Myrddraal wrote the Dark Prophecy on orders, as a threat. I might want to use some of the reasons, so the rest on that is RAFO. <br /><br />Fain (now amalgamated with Mordeth) was seeking his own power base, something he would try again with Pedron Niall and Toram Riatin. He wanted enough power to be able to kill Rand, Mat and Perrin, though most especially Rand, and to protect himself against agents of the Shadow. Because of Darkfriend reports, the Myrddraal who wrote the prophecy already knew who the strangers on Toman Head were, or claimed to be: Artur Hawkwing's armies returned to reclaim the lands stolen from Hawkwing's heirs. He knew that they collared women who could channel, which appealed to Fain/Mordeth, since one disliked Aes Sedai at best and the other purely hated them. The Myrddraal didn't simply give this up to Fain, you understand. Fain is one of the few people who could successfully torture information out of one of the Eyeless. As for why he went to Cairhien first, he knew the location of the Waygate there (along with several others and how to read the guidings in the Ways, this last from Mordeth) and preferred to use the Ways rather than make the longer cross-country journey from Fal Dara to Toman Head.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perplexed.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smackhead.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /> LLT <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2007-04-16 08:33:30
subject: <b>The beautiful woman mat talked to...</b>
body:
Mat did meet a beautiful woman way before &quot;Selene&quot;.  He met Moiraine in Emond's Field in the first few chapters.  She is by all accounts a beautiful woman.  Maybe not &quot;Selene&quot; beautiful but I certainly wouldn't kick her out of bed.  Sorry, I disagree with that part of your theory.  I also think Ingtar freed Padan Fain.  Sorry again.


created: 2008-09-16 09:41:03
subject: <b>I'm not buying it...</b>
body:
because if Selene had been Mesaana the whole time, why then wouldn't Lanfear have been a bit puzzled when Rand referred to travelling with Selene when Lanfear confronted him in the Stone of Tear?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Whoo!! H Town!!</font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-09 11:00:17
subject: <b>Can't Over Channel In A Link</b>
body:
Like he idea of a circle of 72 a TG, but in a link it was stated that you can't draw on your full power.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/seanchan.gif" border="0" /> Iluminaten <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/seanchan.gif" border="0" /><br />Lord of the Iluminati</font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-09 12:39:20
subject: <b>Natural Buffer</b>
body:
I think that's right, there's some sort of natural buffering in the workings of the link that keeps you from drawing enough to damage you--can't remember the actual reference, but I'm guessing it's during the Bowl of Winds section, when Elayne and Nyn are explaining to the Sea Folk and Kin.  <br /><br />As for Alivia (or any other woman) using the Choedan Kal, won't they have to find the other female access key (if there are only two, that is)?  And am I losing my mind when I think I remember that the second key is in Tanchico, and it's broken already?


created: 2004-03-09 13:18:26
subject: <b>In response to last</b>
body:
There are 2 of the choedan kal not 2 keys they male is in Cairhein and the Female is in Tremalking. Those 2 are the actual 100' tall statues the only keys we have seen are the 2 used in the cleansing and the female of the 2 broke during that.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I killed the whole world, and you can too, if you try hard.<br />     -Lews Therin Telamon<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" />Me and Gabril have a wager.....and i never lose<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-09 13:42:59
subject: <b>Access keys</b>
body:
There is a second female access key in the Panarch's Palace in Tanchico.  It is broken and causes extreme pain if a female channeler touches it.<br /><br />I think Lanfear even referred to it once in front of Rand, joking it could be a nice trap for an unwary Aes Sedai - or something like that.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="images/personalsmilies/30778.gif" />Wheel of Time Reference Library : Articles, maps, charts and misc.<img src="images/personalsmilies/30778.gif" /><br /><br /></font><p><a href="http://13depository.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">The Thirteenth Depository - a Wheel of Time Blog</a></p><p></p>


created: 2004-03-09 14:05:34
subject: <b>Keys</b>
body:
Ashandari, I'm pretty sure that during one of the Forsaken meetings, there's an allusion to possible other keys.  Like DomA said, Lanfear probably did something nasty to the broken one, but we don't know how many keys were made, total.


created: 2004-03-09 14:45:27
subject:
<b>The facts in your theory are correct. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /></b>

body:
You can draw on 2 angreals, even 2 sa angreals, at the same time. (Mind you, Rand was drawing on half the male Choedan Kal, Asmodean the other half.)<br /><br />There were more than one access terangreals made for each of the Choedan Kal. We know of 2 broken female ones now -the one used by Nynaeve and the Tanchico one. We have only seen one of the male ones.<br /><br />It is possible that Elayne could make a new female one, since she has a flair for making terangreal, if she only had the time and the male and broken female keys to go by. <br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> Linda Sedai <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Proud member of the Embroiderer's Guild of the White Tower<br /><br /><b><font color="red">FAQ admin</font></b> </font>'cos the FAQ is where it's at.<br /><br /><b>Currently working on:</b> my 70th FAQ<p><a href="http://13depository.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">The thirteenth depository : A Wheel of Time blog</a></p><p></p>


created: 2004-03-09 17:05:39
subject: <b>I'm thinking 100 groups of 72</b>
body:
But I don't think Rand will weild Calandor as well. Narishima can be in the linnk holding it and it'll do the same thing.<br /><br />But I like your point about two angreals.<br />Lanfear told Rand that there are two sa'angreals stronger than Calandor that a man can use.<br /><br />So I'll vote yes.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Fortune rides like the sun on high<br />with the fox that makes the ravens fly.<br />Luck his soul, the lightning his eye,<br />He snatches the moons from out the sky.&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-09 17:21:30
subject: <b>Just a thought</b>
body:
but would it be posible for Elayne to make a couple of other acess keys to the male sa'angreal and have Rand by himself using all of them? He's proven he can cope with one flow of Sadar and Sadin from both (ok the extent of his intjuries afterward is yet to be determined but...). Also, since Rand believes he is going to die fighting the DO anyway, he'd be game enough to try it. Could also be the physical Breaking he causes (if he causes one)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> Member of the Crimson Corps <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Loyal to the Dragon Reborn <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Death rides on my shoulder, death walks in my footsteps; I am death...</font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-09 18:08:28
subject: <b>Im not sure about it</b>
body:
I dont think the whole circle will die, because as is said above, it is specifically stated that the one holding the link cannot force you to draw more than you safely can, or even as much as you safely can. The scenario I have thought of ever since we learned about the lack of buffer on Callandor went like this.<br /><br />Rand and a large circle go into seal the prison. They are able to seal it, but Rand realizes that sealing wont do the trick (cause the DO will just break free) so he draws more and more of the power untill he has enough. This has the same effect as drawing too much power had on LTT, completely destroying his body, but allows him to gain enogh power for a breif enough time to seal the bore completley, ready for the next bore to be drilled.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sir, I admit your general rule<br />That every poet is a fool.<br />But you yourself may serve to show it,<br />That every fool is not a poet.<br /> <br />Shendolin Valderen on the RPG <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-10 13:16:38
subject: <b>Just a thought...</b>
body:
I was thinking about the statement made in the Illustrated guide, that the strongest circles were those with the closest balance between male and female channelers, that a small circle with a closer balance between men and women can be stronger than a larger circle with less balance.  When I thought about this, it isn't all that suprising.<br />  Male channelers are, on the average, much stronger than most female channelers.  Now, despite the fact that the increase in power when linking into a circle is not purely additive, it makes sense that bringing men into a circle would increase its power much more than adding more women.  Therefore, the strongest circles would be those that had as many men as possible.<br />  Another point made in the Illustrated guide was that, except for the special cases of one man and one woman, two man and one woman, and two men and two women (there may be one more I have forgotten), there must always be at least one more woman than men linked in a circle.  Therefore, the circles which have the highest numbers of men, which logic tells us should be the strongest, are also those that have the closest gender balance, which RJ tells us are the strongest.  We are told that the circle with the greatest potential strength is the Great Circle of 72, with 35 men and 37 women, with the greatest number of channelers possibly linked, the highest number of men possible, and the closest balance between men and women.<br />  In other words, the fact that the strongest circles are also balanced is incidental, it's really just the fact that they have as many men as possible, and since there must always be one more woman than men, they just happen to be balanced.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Samshaidar Mhael<br />The Leader of the Destroyers of Shadow <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-blue.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-red.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/borg.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-green.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-purple.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />I am immortal, I have inside me blood of kings <br />I have no rival, no man can be my equal<br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-10 22:34:09
subject: <b>The thing about all dying made me vote no......</b>
body:
but the rest of it was  good. Makes me wonder if we'll ever see such a large Circle.... hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>you know you can't leave Wotmania. It's kinda like herpes, you can just never really get rid of it.</i><br />Kit <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /></font><p><a href="http://www.cbgxtra.com/" target="_blank">Comics Buyer's Guide XTRA</a></p><p></p>


created: 2004-03-10 23:07:34
subject: <b>The number of men.</b>
body:
I thought someware in the books it said that only up to like 5 men could be in a single circle.  I thought that was to blance the whole thing out that like you can have like 20 some women to one male up to five male and like 60 some odd women.<br />


created: 2004-03-11 12:05:46
subject: <b>what?</b>
body:
i'm sorry, but this is not a theory... at best speculation that you can put up on the message board...


created: 2004-03-11 16:36:14
subject: <b>Huh?</b>
body:
imfunny, were you talking about my comment, or the theory on which we are commenting.<br />Cause if you're talking about me, I never called it a theory, and as a matter of fact, I did post it on the message board<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Samshaidar Mhael<br />The Leader of the Destroyers of Shadow <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-blue.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-red.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/borg.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-green.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-purple.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />I am immortal, I have inside me blood of kings <br />I have no rival, no man can be my equal<br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-12 17:29:50
subject: <b>A Couple Things Wrong</b>
body:
1. The female access key was destroyed in WH<br />2. 2 Women provide a buffer for callandor<br />3. Thats a load of Crap!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br />Red Sox Fan &amp; Yankee Hater<br />kim: it's too cold there to smell<br /><b>Warder to the wonderful, amusing and ever so smart Elayne_Sedai</b><br />Friends don't let friends read Goodkind<br />My mind isn't always in the gutter, it just has VIP access</font><p><a href="http://tinyurl.com/45t6t" target="_blank">Simply Splendid </a></p><p></p>


created: 2004-03-13 06:09:22
subject: <b>Manetheren</b>
body:
There is almost certainly one more female key, the one used to burn the dreadlords when Manetheren fell. No other saangreal has anywhere near that much power. It is probably sitting in the weeds somewhere wherever the throneroom used to be.


created: 2004-03-13 21:08:22
subject: <b>lil timmy</b>
body:
I thought the melted key Nyn finds in Tanchico was the one from burning the Dreadlords. Asmo says to Rand that there were two accesses for each of the CK - the half melted one in Tanchico and the one Nyn destroys in WH. Rand hasn't found the other key for the male one as far as I can remember...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> Member of the Crimson Corps <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Loyal to the Dragon Reborn <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Death rides on my shoulder, death walks in my footsteps; I am death...</font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-15 00:59:47
subject: <b>Question</b>
body:
to start sorry about spelling it's late<br />about the sword and the female key<br /><br />Dosen't it say in the books that you need 2 women and one man to safly use calandor and that the women would be in control of the flows ... so if the sword and the CK were used togeather ...a women would have to be in charge of the flows wouldn't she? <br /><br />when i frist read the series i was told the melted key would be made hole with the broken key in Tanchico<br /><br />the upper half of the key melted in WH which leves a hole bottem half hole, and a full top of the key but brocken bottom in Tanchico. maybe fixed my Elyan or someone that can make angreal and then you have one hole key .... just a thought i could be wrong


created: 2004-03-16 01:30:39
subject: <b>Circles and Statues</b>
body:
We know that circles can be held even while members are sleeping, from when they're using the Bowl of Winds.  Do we know if there is a range limit, once linked?<br /><br />If not, some of them should link up, then get on a ship and go physically to the statue on Tremalking (I think that's right?), then link to it directly without the access key.


created: 2004-03-16 23:27:41
subject: <b>can't think of anything witty</b>
body:
didn't it say in the books that you have to have some kind of contact with the person you link with other wise there is no link .... and plus i think they mention somewhere maybe in the BWB that direct use of the CK will either still you ... or kill you


created: 2004-03-17 21:16:27
subject: <b>Wow</b>
body:
this is a very well thought out and excellent theory, I'll tell you more when I'm truly awake, however, at the moment, I am having trouble distinguishing narg <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /> from Baalzamon <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> welp, yuppies!!!!!!!!!!!!!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> &quot;I'm the D.O.&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /> &quot;No I am&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rand.gif" border="0" /> &quot;KILL THEM!&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /> &quot;You can't possibly win!&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" />*smirks* &quot;Ya wanna make a bet???&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perrin.gif" border="0" /> *mutters* &quot;stupid axe&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/avi.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/min.gif" border="0" /> &quot;YOU CAN DO IT!&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-29 01:45:18
subject: <b>Linking and distance</b>
body:
Zan:  I do remember reading in the books about circles and the proximity of the people in those circles.  If I remember correctly, it says that they can hold the link in their sleep but the further away from each other they were physically would lessen the strength of the link...they could be on opposite sides of the world and the link wouldn't break, but it would be so weak as to be rendered useless.  I wish I could remember where I read this so I could give you a direct quote, but this is the best I can do.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">All your base are belong to us.</font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-29 08:43:05
subject: <b>The Path of Daggers, A Quiet Place</b>
body:
<b>Vandene could have gone several hundred paces before the link began to attenuate -it would not break if she and Adeleas went to opposite corners of the earth, though it would have been useless long before that</b><br />The Path of Daggers, A Quiet Place, 111


created: 2007-12-31 09:03:01
subject: <b>Circle of 71</b>
body:
A circle of 71 doesn't require a man leading does it? In which case callandor could be used safely also the power would be greater as there would be only a 1 diffrence in the men/women or is it you have to have a 3 diffrence?


created: 2004-03-18 09:14:52
subject: <b>I'm not ready to vote yes yet, but</b>
body:
I think this is a novel idea. It would be quite a twist, to suddenly make Mat Lord of the Dead or some such, but it's an idea wrth toying with. Thank you for your theory.<br /><br />*wonders off to ponder...*<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Bob L. Sedai (a.k.a. Luge) <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /><br />Fighting off the Taint - <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tinfoilhat.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" />Thanks given to Burr, the ever-helpful theory critic<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />And to Light in the Night, fellow theorist extraordinaire<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Voted Best Screenname 1 (one) years in a row.</font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-18 09:26:06
subject: <b>interesting idea</b>
body:
I think you have an intersting idea, but I do disagree.  Remember that Birgitte knows about the tower and prevents Perrin from going in.  It is clear to her that Perrin can get in, even though he is alive.  This could mean that you can enter through TAR if you are alive, maybe only through TAR if you are alive.  It could mean that the living can get in if they wish.<br /><br />Anyway, good idea.  I disagree with it, but I like it anyway.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">May you be successful  in all your projects.<br /><br />I am a pastafarion.  The Flying Spaghetti Monster created the universe, and no one in Kansas can prove me wrong.<br /><br />http://www.vengaza.org</font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-18 10:36:13
subject: <b>I doubt that Mat will be crucial for the rescue</b>
body:
I think it's mainly Thom's task to rescue Moiraine. <br />If you were right Thom couldn't enter Finnland through the ToG and rescue Moiraine. But it is Thom who draws Moiraine's stone out of the fire in Egwene's dream.  <br />Mat has other things to do in my view.<br /><br />According to RJ's answer the Tower of Ghenjei is an entry to Finnland like the doorway ter'angreal. <br />Also Birgitte says that in the books, and she certainly doesn't mean only for spirits. <br />She is even afraid that Perrin could enter, though he is not a spirit. <br /><br />Normally spirits aren't walking in Randland.<br />Why should someone build an entry to Finnland only for spirits then?<br /><br />It is likely that Slayer can enter the ToG. <br />But probably everyone can do it, if you know <i> how </i> since the ToG was a known way to Finnland. <br />I believe Thom will find a way with the help of Olver and hints from Moiraine's letter. <br /><br />I think it was suggested that since the Aelfinn can see the future, they can also see the end of a person who asks questions. Somehow they can save these visions as memories.<br />But we will RAFO as RJ said. <br /><br /><br />


created: 2004-03-18 12:24:21
subject: <b>a 'simpler' explanation</b>
body:
We know that the snakes can read a person's future.  It isn't that much of a stretch to say that they can steal 'future' memories as well.  <br /><br />When a person enter's the doorway ter'angreals the hear a loud roar and see a bright light.  It is almost as if they hear everything they hear in their entire life and see everything they see all at once.  Perhaps this is evidence that when a person enters the gateways the entire thread of their life enters the land of the Finn as well.  (This may also explain in part why someone can not enter the same doorway twice.  Their own thread is blocking the doorway in some sense.)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">RabidWombat<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> Let the Lord of Rambling Thoughts rule <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> Proud owner of a 2 star rating! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /> Someone stole all my cookies <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-18 13:08:49
subject:
<b>Etzel has stated my thinking<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /></b>

body:
This will probably be a Thom, Olver rescue, and after much consideration, have concluded that no Gateways will be nacessary. After our people leave the Circus, Thom, Olver and someone handy with iron will &lt;ride&gt; to the Tower for the rescue.<br /><br />No Mat, no Perrin, no Rand.<br /><br />It will probably be at/near the end of Book 11. A great climax. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-18 17:37:13
subject: <b>Entering the ToG</b>
body:
Hi,<br /><br />I just wanted to say that I think Thom, Matt, and Olver will get into the ToG. I don't think it has anything to do with spirits or physical location. I think the 'doorway' opens when you win at Snake and Foxes, that's why they say the opening, to be sure they're ready to enter Finnland where music, iron, etc are banned. It's not hard for me to imagine Thom, Olver, and Mat sitting around playing (halfheartedly for the adults while they talk about something) and have Mat's taveren skill with dice win the game. There was a reference in an earlier book (probably Fires of Heaven) when Mat was traveling with the Band to Tear, that he 'always lets Olver roll the dice. No knowing what would happen if he rolled them'.<br /><br />


created: 2004-03-18 21:44:14
subject: <b>To YDavid</b>
body:
Ooooh, I've never thought about Mat rolling the dice for Snakes and Foxes. Very interesting idea. But I expect there would have to be some actual sort of cheating, as we've been hearing that from everybody in reference to the game. But yeah, cool idea.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Bob L. Sedai (a.k.a. Luge) <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /><br />Fighting off the Taint - <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tinfoilhat.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" />Thanks given to Burr, the ever-helpful theory critic<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />And to Light in the Night, fellow theorist extraordinaire<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Voted Best Screenname 1 (one) years in a row.</font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-19 07:17:42
subject: <b>No proof Slayer went in</b>
body:
He ran toward it and disappeared. <br /><br />Most likely he just stepped out of Te'aran'rhiod, hoping that Perrin would find his way in, and be trapped there.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-19 17:17:51
subject: <b>Mat and the game</b>
body:
I must say, that I've always associated Matt and the Snake and Foxes game with each other.  It just seemed natural.  Why else would Jordan spend so much time on the subject.  As for Matt using the dice to enter the tower, I never thought of that.  But how would winning a game that is just drawn on a piece of paper send them into Finnland?  I always thought that Matt would figure out how to win the game, and use that knowledge to enter and help Thom rescue Moraine.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">lowmanbuys<br />And I'm tired of buying! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angry.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />What would men be without women?<br />Scarce sir, mighty scarce. -Mark Twain</font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-19 19:05:22
subject: <b>Disregarding the Moiraine issue</b>
body:
In my theory here, I completly disregarded the idea that Moiraine would be saved from the land of the Finn.  I just don't think that it's going to happen.  I'm just thinking that it has some connection with the dead we don't know about.  Maybe winning at Snakes &amp; Foxes, since it involves cheating, requires a dead game piece to be used again... hence the entrance for the dead.<br /><br />Of course Birgette's probably been in the ToG, she is dead for a good portion of the time we know her, being as she hasn't been reborn (or eventually torn out of TAR).  I think Mat will be able to get everyone in, then Thom and crew will play a vital role to accomplishing whatever goal that needs to happen in the ToG.<br /><br />Maybe the Thom pulling Moiraine's stone out of the flame is him discovering Moiraine's true fate, therefore rescuing the memory of her, and give everyone some closure.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" />&quot;Love is like Oxygen! Love lifts us up where we belong! All you need is love&quot;<br />                      - Moulin Rouge <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-19 23:45:28
subject: <b>no</b>
body:
First off, as LitN mentions, Slayer likely didn't go into the ToG, jsut stepped out of T'A'R hoping Perrin would figure out the way in.  The most recent theory on the TP explains what is likely the way in, which Perrin almost did.<br /><br />Second off, the dead walking likely has more to do with the DO about to break free, the whole biblical armeghedon(sp?) and the dead will walk.<br /><br />Third, Etzel stole my idea that the memories the Finns gave Finn likely come from those who visited while alive and while looking at their futures got their future memories as well as their past memories.<br /><br />Fourth, the fact that most of Mat's memories come from Mantheren, which is where the ToG is located, it seems more likely that the adventurers came from there.  I mean really what would stop a spirit from traveling across the land so that Mat would have more diverse memories.<br /><br />Fifth, as bme mentioned Birgitte knew that Perrin could have gotten into the ToG and that's why she stopped him.<br /><br />To respond to your BB post, there is no connection between ToG and the dead.  Moiraine has to come back, since Min said Rand can't win without her.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sir Jim<br />Lord of Minutia&#8482;<br />King of WoT MB Posts&#8482;<br /><br />Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so.</font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-20 05:47:46
subject: <b>To Jim</b>
body:
<b> Third, Etzel stole my idea that the memories the Finns gave Finn likely come from those who visited while alive and while looking at their futures got their future memories as well as their past memories. </b><br /><br />Hehe <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />I didn't <i> steal </i> your idea. <br />I said &quot;I think I it was suggested&quot; this way and meant on the WoT MB by someone else (of course). <br />I didn't know that it was your idea I repeated. <br />Think I read it in a post by NaClH2O some days ago. <br />In any case, a good idea! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />


created: 2004-03-23 22:46:22
subject: <b>Kritter</b>
body:
I'm doubting they'll go in and find out she's dead.  Everyone does have closure, except <i>perhaps</i> Thom.. with his pining over the letter.  Nobody living right now, other than him, consider the possibility that she is alive.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Wartherded by Phil Reborn<br /><br />CW</font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-24 15:50:58
subject: <b>Sorry Kritter. Moiraine is totally coming back.</b>
body:
Jim- thanks for pointing out the bit about Min's viewing.  <br /><br />Aside from that, there is far too much foreshadowing for her to just dissolve out of the story.  Sorry.  <br /><br />I like the theory in general, though.  It would make a fabulous climax for Book 11 if Mat uses the dice to get into the ToG.  Wasn't there a theory out there somewhere about walking around the Tower in a certain direction three times?  I think Birgitte stops Perrin before he makes a third circuit around the Tower.  <br />I could also be making this up entirely.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br />*penny penny*<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">mapthis: pez supplier to the stars<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-24 18:18:10
subject: <b>Spirits</b>
body:
I'm sorry but I don't agree with you're assesment of RJ's answer. I think that there is another way into the T of G without dying. you just have to know what it is to get there. (didn't birgette say that it was difficult to enter? not impossible.) They may have entered in the dream or even in the waking world alive. asked thier questions, or made thier requests, and exited, living out the remainder of thier lives, some of them anyway. after all the 'Finns filter through you're expirences when they answer a question or grant a request, and they see your future as well, so they could have the &quot;memory&quot; of your death before you die. You may be right, but I just don't think there is enough evidence at this point to say for sure.


created: 2004-03-25 10:17:35
subject: <b>Definitely clever but...</b>
body:
I'm thinking that the memories are from those that the 'finns have 'sniffed' when they've come through asking for stuff. That, and like others have said, Birgitte seemed really worried about Perrin in TAR. He could've gotten in alive.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br /><i>I will try. Before surrendering to dreams or death, I will try.<font color="black"></font></i></font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-26 11:21:12
subject: <b>What about Perrin?</b>
body:
This theory is very interesting. Although I think it would be cool if it was correct, I think the recent theory about entering by circling the Tower three times is a stronger theory.<br /><br />Now I have a question: How does anyone think Perrin relates to the ToG? I think he might have some role to play in whatever happens surrounding the Tower.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">May you always walk in the Light,<br /><br />Adan, Jenn Aiel</font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-31 18:57:48
subject: <b>Thom, maybe Olver</b>
body:
Mat will NOT go into the Tower. He's already been inside twice, once through each doorway. His purpose in connection with the tower will be puzzling out the way to defeat the 'finns at their own game. It might be that Olver will say something that triggers it. Either way, once a way is determined, Thom will stop at nothing to go and retrieve Moiraine. Mat has gotten what he asked for and needed from them. He may still believe he was cheated, but they really did follow through on their end of the ancient bargain.<br /><br />The puzzle of fire, iron, and music has nothing to do with getting inside the tower. The doorway that was in the storeroom of Tear, into the Aelfinn side, is unharmed. I believe it will end the ancient agreement that gives the 'finns their power over people of that world. Hopefully it will also provide a way from the Aelfinn side to the Eelfinn side, where Moiraine went to. Of course Lanfear seems to have been on both sides even though she entered the same time. I would like to believe that both sides had some sort of punishment in store for a Forsaken who dared enter their realm, or maybe just for having channeled while entering.<br /><br />I fear that we will not learn more about the apparent ability to enter the Tower by circling it thrice, at least in T'a'R. There had to be a reason that Birgitte urgently stopped Perrin from continuing beyond a second rounding of the Tower, and it's as good a theory as any that it makes one able to enter. But RJ has made it clear that he will not answer every open plot thread during the series, and I just don't see this one going anywhere. Yet I can hope.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> Call me Tim <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-04-08 02:17:22
subject: <b>RabidWombat</b>
body:
If Matts thread was blocking his way back into Finnland then since he was dead isnt his thread cut? He was dead so his thread was cut at least momentarily and so shoulnt that make him able to go back through the doorway?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Roses are red <br />Violets are blue <br />I'm schizophrenic <br />And so am I <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/crazy.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smackhead.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-09-04 02:07:21
subject: <b>Matt's Fox Sigil</b>
body:
Matt's taveren influence landed him with a sigil ring with a fox flushing two ravens. Now, it's obvious that the ravens symbolize Tuon, and the Seanchan. And it seems clear that Matt is the Fox. Another party symbolized by the &quot;Fox&quot; is the Eelfin, who made such a touch bargain with him, hanging him for the price of memories (a mixed blessing, those) and the spear and medallion. So the question is, is this a simple straightforward metaphor simply refering to Matt as someone who made a baragain with the Foxes? I don't think so. I think Matt has unfinished business with them. Also, he is described as the &quot;trickster&quot; which makes him not unlike the Eelfin in a lot of ways. I think it possible Matt enters the tower of Ghenjei looking for revenge/closure and finds Moiraine by accident. I also think it's possible Olver leads them there, just a little boy getting up to mischief.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Show me the Frangipani.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-09-25 03:11:46
subject: <b>A point you seem to forget about Perrin...</b>
body:
Doesn't Eylas (or Elyas?) seems to say something like &quot;...you live half in one world and half in another...&quot;, because of his 'Wolf-Brotherness?<br />So... Mat can get in because he is technically 'half-dead' (not to sure on this point).<br />Perrin can get in because he just can. He rules.<br />Rand can either Travel or Portal-Stone in (remember the symbols they drawer in the air before playing S and F's? They are symbols on the Portal Stones. Yeah, check it out for yourself.<br />Thom will follow Mat in I think, because Mat will roll the dice and 'win by cheating' because of his good luck. Thom has to follow him because he can't enter via T'a'R and isn't around Rand atm.


created: 2004-03-18 09:58:05
subject: <b>Disagree</b>
body:
First of all, no Graendaldunnit theory I read so far proved that Graendal killed Asmo.<br />On the contrary, they are all pretty weak, especially considering what RJ said. <br />Some things speak against Graendal being the killer and not much for her.<br /><br />Of course many people believe nevertheless that Graendal was the murderer because other people claimed that only Graendal could have killed Asmo and that there are many hints. <br />But that is simply wrong.<br /><br />Furthermore, there are no conclusive clues that Lanfear worked with Graendal to kill Rahvin. <br />It's very unlikely that Lanfear had done it. <br />She is rather a loner among the Forsaken and surely hadn't trust Graendal.  <br />Also Asmo's PoV before his death doesn't indicate that there was such a plan. <br />Why should they want to kill Rahvin? <br /><br />I also don't understand why Graendal is &quot;furious&quot; if Rahvin actually died as they planned according to your theory.<br /><br />Finally it's also wrong that the wards in Caemlyn were removed. <br />Rahvin knew that Rand was in the city, that was the reason for the lightnings.<br /><br />All in all, your theory makes not much sense in my view, is based on a very doubtful hypothesis (that Graendal killed Asmo) and I miss convincing clues.<br />Thus I have to disagree.


created: 2004-03-18 12:04:04
subject: <b>Nope, as per RJ and the WOTMania guy</b>
body:
Alright, since the only truly sound theory I've seen on this is the one the WOTMania guy has put up, saying that it's Lanfear, because that's the only option that's INTUITIVELY OBVIOUS, I'll have to disagree with you.  If it weren't for that and just about EVERY single Graendal theory is on a shaky foundation at best, I'd say decent theory, but, yeah, sorry, gotta disagree.<br /><br />Avadakedavra <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Toad D-Manz <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/crazy.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-18 15:15:21
subject: <b>Actually, I would say that the Dark One all but offered</b>
body:
Graendal Naeblis to convince her to do the deed because she was reluctant to take the risk - not as a reward afterwards.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> Linda Sedai <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Proud member of the Embroiderer's Guild of the White Tower<br /><br /><b><font color="red">FAQ admin</font></b> </font>'cos the FAQ is where it's at.<br /><br /><b>Currently working on:</b> my 70th FAQ<p><a href="http://13depository.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">The thirteenth depository : A Wheel of Time blog</a></p><p></p>


created: 2004-03-18 15:21:53
subject: <b>well...</b>
body:
The wards were not removed. How else could Rahvin send the lightnings against Rand and his warriors, killing Asmodean and Mat? Rahvin was surprised at the fact that Rand survived the initial attack and Traveled straight to Rahvin in the throne room.<br /><br />Your theory, while original, is very weak.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Gaeran Amaconde<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />Grand Historian at the Court of the Sun<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />One of Those Chosen to Bring the Light<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" />Master of Graendal's Revels<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" />&quot;If sometimes our dreams come true, what of our nightmares?&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-18 18:00:17
subject: <b>I second linda_sedai's sedai comment</b>
body:
<br /><br />I'm in the Graendaldunit camp. Forget about the &quot;intuitively obvious&quot; argument because obvious depends too much on what Jordan considers &quot;obvious&quot;.  But he also said he put other clues in the later books until someone wrote to him with the correct explanation and culprit - and he stopped putting in more clues.<br /><br />Those later clues, as flimsy and shacky as they are, all hint that Graendal knows more than the others about Asmodean's fate.  <br /><br />I think Graendal had informants in Cairhien, Caemlyn an Illian because she is not one to trust anyone she conspires with and nor would she trust judge of the evolution of their plan of her co-conspirators'information alone. And she could make the same reasonning that Lanfear did, that the plan could be an opportunity to get rid of the two males, and perhaps even of Lanfear.  <br /><br />I think she learned quickly about Lanfear's fight (perhaps with sketchy details about its outcome) and about Rahvin's death by balefire. Like linda_sedai I think that she reported Rahvin's and Lanfear's deaths immediately and the DO hinted (because he was probably lying to her) that now that the Chosen were dwindling she could even become Naeblis one day if she obeyed him well - and would she dare get near Al'Thor and get rid of the traitor Asmodean for him?  <br /><br />The murder could have been one of opportunity only in the sense that Graendal was still just spying at that point. <br /><br />I don't believe in the association of the two women with Asmodean. Trapped and betrayed by them as he would have been he would have warned Rand about this association. <br /><br />There's another possibility, though.   The two women might have been allied all along against the three males.<br /><br />I base this speculation on what happens later in the story and what it tells us about Graendal's personality.  We see her twice associating herself with the top dog and try to get advantage from him.  First, despite her schemes in FoH she still tries to court Demandred's camp in LoC- and we know from the comments of one of the Chosen that Demandred attempted to set himself as the leader of the others after Ishamael's death. She courts Demandred by making herself the link to his rival Sammael and reporting to Demandred exactly what he wants to hear.<br /><br />Similarly, while she had already betrayed him and lied about the DO's orders (thus clearly attempting to ruin his status and possibly cause his death) she still agrees suddenly to collaborate with Sammael as soon as she suspects he could be telling the truth about being promised Naeblis by the DO.  <br /><br />We might even infer she did the same initially and agreed to spread chaos in Arad Doman to cater the favor of Ishamael.<br /><br />In Tear Lanfear told Rand the DO had agreed with her plan to seduce him.  She told him they could rule right under the DO.  Doesn't that sound similar to the same of promise to be named Naeblis some of the others got later?  <br /><br />If Lanfear used that argument with Graendal, she might have found an &quot;ally&quot; in her.  Graendal showed later knowledge she might well have gotten from Lanfear, such as Rand's weakness about killing women.  <br /><br />Let's not forget Lanfear's plan was also an attempt to compete with Demandred for the top position. Three Chosen gone and herself getting the DO's favor by being of of the two who presented him with the gift of Rand - there could have been many advantages for Graendal in all this, especially since I don't doubt for an instant she would have thought about a way to get above Lanfear when the time has come.  <br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="images/personalsmilies/30778.gif" />Wheel of Time Reference Library : Articles, maps, charts and misc.<img src="images/personalsmilies/30778.gif" /><br /><br /></font><p><a href="http://13depository.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">The Thirteenth Depository - a Wheel of Time Blog</a></p><p></p>


created: 2004-03-19 00:26:27
subject: <b>not a channeler</b>
body:
I doubt that the killer of Asmodean was any of the forsaken or darkfriend channelers, for the simple reason that any of them would rather capture him than kill him. The dark one would love to have Asmodean in his clutches, both to punish him, and to take all of the information he has about Rand. Then he would turn him over to Ishamael with a mind trap. Any channeler who brought in a traitor could expect a great reward. That leaves someone like Slayer, or Ishamael himself in his new guise as Moridin (death), or any of the other more off-beat posibilities. Certainly not Graendal.


created: 2004-03-19 02:26:54
subject: <b>Asmodean couldn't have been plotting with Lanfear</b>
body:
Everything from independant sources about Asmodean suggests that his estrangement from the other Forsaken and his reluctant acceptance of his fate with Rand is real, from what he thinks in his PoV to what he tells Isendre, to the Forsakens' assessment of his character.  <br /><br />The notion that he was upset at Lanfear's death, and that they were still working together and he hoped she would remove the shield is absolutely ludicrous.  He was thinking that he was GLAD she was dead, for crying out loud!  This theory takes a few very flimsy ideas, and builds even flimsier premises on the supposition that the first ideas are true.<br /><br />I have yet to see any overwhelming evidence one way or another, and this topic is one of the few in WoT on which I have no opinion.  Quite frankly, I've moved beyind that since it has very little bearing on the rest of the story.  Back when I read FoH and LoC was still a year from being released, I wanted to know, because I assumed the culprit would be lurking around making things difficult for Rand in the next book.  Maybe he or she has been, but by this point the death of Asmodean and the identity of his killer has no bearing in exposing a new threat.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-19 04:06:30
subject: <b>How...</b>
body:
did this make it to the Theory Post? It's really weak, without quotes, and can be easily refuted by quotes from the book.


created: 2004-03-19 07:09:09
subject: <b>Here's the way I saw it</b>
body:
Lanfear told Rand in the Stone that the DO would let Rand rule if he would bend knee to him. She would get Asmo to teach him to channel, and then they could kill him and all of the others. So, all Lanfear has to do is get Asmo to be Rand's teacher, right? Why would Asmo go for this? Lanfear knows he won't unless she comes up with something else:<br /><br />&quot;If you cannot control your....appetites,&quot; the blur said in the man's voice, &quot;why should I associate with you at all? If I must take risks, I want a greater reward than pulling strings on a puppet.&quot;<br /><br />That was Asmo talking to Lanfear when they both entered Rand's dream in TSR, chapter 50. Lanfear has obviously convinced Asmo that by joining forces with her, he will have some sort of control over Rand, by using him for their own ends. It was never Lanfear's intent on sharing power or control with Asmo, but she had to promise him something to get him to join her in the Waste. Shielding him after the fight in Rhuidean was just her final betrayal of Asmo.<br /><br />Telling Rand that Rahvin sent the Dark Hounds could have been a deception on Lanfear's part, but, then again it could just as easily be the case, too. Tairen grain and soldiers were impinging on territory that Rahvin had staked out as his own, so you might be looking too deep here for hidden agendas. It certainly wasn't as blatant as later attacks where they shouted Sammael's name and carried weapons with the emblems of Illian. This was a more covert attack, anonymous, so it's more difficult to tell. <br /><br />The most suspicious thing about the Dark Hounds is that they attack Rand and Mat, while only checking on Asmo's location. (The ward that Rand had on his room only prevented male channelers from crossing it, IIRC.) It appears to me that another Forsaken wanted to verify that Asmo was indeed with Rand, and possibly take him out later if he was. I think someone was just checking up on what Lanfear had told them, to see if it was true, before they would trust her any further in any plans.<br /><br />Rahvin would fit in this scenario, as we see his POV in TFoH Prologue that says he would perhaps go along with her plans as long as they didn't interfere with his own. This is the same meeting where Lanfear tells them that Asmo has gone over to Rand, as well.<br /><br />That's just my take on it.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-19 23:33:38
subject: <b>I don't think so</b>
body:
First off, Asmo skimmed because he couldn't Travel, you have to know the place you're Traveling from better than the place you're Traveling to.  Skimming on the other hand requires the other, knowing where you're going, not where you are.  Asmo knew he didn't have time to wait around to know that area since by then Rand might have been done with the meeting with the chiefs.<br /><br />Second off, if you're assuming that Asmo was plotting with Graendal because he knew where she was then you'd have to assume that he worked with Sammael since he also knew where he was set up.<br /><br />Third, &quot;Lanfear tells us that she has viewed his dreams which show he dreams of being raised higher than the DO --sorry, I can't find this quote right now).&quot;  This happens after she shields him and the dreams have to do with Rand defeating the DO and Rand raising him up to Rand's second in command.<br /><br />Fourth, if Lanfear and Asmo were working together after Rand &quot;captured&quot; Asmo, why would she bother to actually shield him?  Why not just tell Rand he had and have Asmo play along, so Asmo still can't teach Rand everything he wants to know, but will still be powerful enough to do whatever he needs to do.<br /><br />Fifth, as others have mentioned the wards weren't removed since Rahvin strikes at Rand with lightning right after he closes the Skimming gateway.  The reason he's surprised to see Rand is that if Rand had wanted to come straight to the throne room he could have, but for some reason he opened his gateway outside the Palace and then decided to Travel into the Palace alone.<br /><br />Sixth, everybody was &quot;all but promised to be named Nae'Blis,&quot; Sammael tells Graendal this, and we see the DO offer it to Demandred.  Most likely the DO uses it to get the Forsaken to work a little harder for him, in Demandred's case to convince him to use balefire if the DO wants him to.<br /><br />Anyway, while I think that Graendal did it, I don't think this theory helps prove it in anyway.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sir Jim<br />Lord of Minutia&#8482;<br />King of WoT MB Posts&#8482;<br /><br />Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so.</font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-20 11:40:20
subject: <b>What the... <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/crazy.gif" border="0" /></b>
body:
This is a very weak theory for several reasons.  Luckily for me, many people have already pointed those reasons out, and I have to agree with almost all of them.  I'll limit myself to one comment about style: Beginning a piece by assuming most people agree that a very contentious issue has been &quot;proven&quot; is somewhat insulting.  Once readers are alienated by an opening, it is very hard to win them back to your point of view.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Diomedes <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-04-11 09:06:22
subject: <b>bashere did it</b>
body:
Davram bashere appears at the end of the book with a bottle of wine and 2 goblets he walked in on asmo who while looking for a nice bottle befitting the dragon reborns gleeman called up a ball of flame bashere then reacted by killing first due to reflexes caused during taim's time in saldaea he realized his mistake and hid the body.


created: 2004-04-14 05:33:54
subject: <b>Though good points</b>
body:
Dependant on your views, one would accept or not accept evidence. Loved the bit about Rahvin's surprise at the gateway - and surprised myself when i didn't notice it, i reread tFoH just then.


created: 2004-04-14 10:23:53
subject: <b>Evidence?</b>
body:
Jordan has always held that you can deduce from the books Asmodean's killer.  While Graendal may be the murderer, there is absolutely no backing for a conspiracy between her and Lanfear and Asmodean.  In fact, Lanfear tells Rand that Asmodean has nightmares about the other Forsaken, especially Lanfear, meaning that he really has abandoned them and is afraid that they will come for him (as one obviously did).


created: 2004-09-25 08:02:24
subject: <b>lanfear didn't do it</b>
body:
what's intuitively obvious to me is that lanfear DIDN'T DO IT!! She's the one who put the shield over him in the first place to teach him things. Suddenly she just decides to kill him? It doesn't make sense. Neither does Moiraine, and neither does Graendal.<br /><br />Maybe it was Tuon! Yes, Tuon!


created: 2004-03-18 08:57:21
subject: <b>No!</b>
body:
Those questions are way too sappy for Moiraine to ahve asked.  I think she might have been slightly more concerned with how to get Rand alive to the Last Battle and how to win than who she was going to marry!


created: 2004-03-18 09:43:21
subject: <b>hmmmmmmmmmm</b>
body:
I am not so sure that she asked about her future husband per se.  However, that she can guarantee that Thom will not die if he goes to Tarabon, she must have asked something about either him directly, or how to protect Elayne and Nynaeve.<br /><br />I do think she likely asked a question concerning how best to help Rand.  If that answer was to go to Rhuidean, then it would correspnd with what the wise ones told her to do.<br /><br />I agree that the letter from the wise ones was probably rudely phrased.  Since she and Avi had to do the same thing, it is likely that she was ordered to be there in much the same tone as Avi was.<br /><br />I think the rest might be a RAFO situation.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">May you be successful  in all your projects.<br /><br />I am a pastafarion.  The Flying Spaghetti Monster created the universe, and no one in Kansas can prove me wrong.<br /><br />http://www.vengaza.org</font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-18 10:32:25
subject: <b>thoughts</b>
body:
I don't find it very likely that she directly asked about Thom - I feel that Moiraine would consider this a waste of a question. However, I do agree that one of the answers touched on Thom somehow (kind of like how Mat got info about his eventual marriage to Tuon, though he certainly did not ask about marriage - hmm maybe the finns are matchmakers at heart?)<br /><br />A side note: I feel that Moiraine telling Thom that he will survive Tanchico is not necessarily bound by the oaths. She has to believe that Thom will survive Tanchico to say it, but her belief does not mean that he will survive - afterall, she could be wrong.<br /><br />I also believe that at least one of the questions had to involve Rand.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Need a book to read - check out my blog for ideas.</font><p><a href="http://nethspace.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">Neth Space</a></p><p></p>


created: 2004-03-18 11:05:03
subject: <b>About Thom</b>
body:
I believe she did ask if Thom would survive Tanchico, and was able to give him a guarantee.<br /><br />I don`t believe she asked about marriage or the Dragon Reborn. She got her marriage info from Min in Baerlon (IMO), and she wouldn`t ask anything that could remotely be construed as touching the Shadow, (the DR).<br /><br />Whether she would ask about Rand al`Thor is iffy.<br /><br />Maybe she got the same advice as Mat-go to Rhuidean, which would be her question about whether Illian should be her next destination. That would make her upset, since her advice to Rand had been to go to Illian.<br /><br />What a pleasant surprise it must have been, when Rand announced he was going to Rhuidean, by Portal Stone, and made the Aiel letter to her make sense about arriving that same day.<br /><br />For what her questions were, we`ll RAFO-or not!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-18 13:10:10
subject: <b>Read the first line</b>
body:
Thanks for the comments, but you are all missing the key statement.  Moiraine said: &quot;so long as they are in regard to your own future. That much is certain.&quot;  She also later stated that questions concerning the Dragon Reborn would probably be too dangerous for asking.  That is why it is likely she would not ask about Rand.  So, what else would she ask about?  Thus, my theory...<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;The reason I won't tell people though is that I am enjoying watching them squirm entirely too much.&quot; - Robert Jordan</font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-18 16:53:03
subject: <b>Bad Assumptions</b>
body:
You're assuming that the Finns only give you three questions.  In fact, the only POV we have is Mat, and he only got three because the world was crumbling, and only got three in Rhuidean because his third was that he be taken back.  There's no evidence to suggest that you only get three questions answered.<br /><br />In fact, there's more evidence to the contrary.  Rand and Moiraine were in there much longer than Mat - they in fact needed a translator because the Foxies speak in the Old Tongue.  There are hints that Rand really did his homework before going in the doorway, and obviously Moiraine did, too.  She was expecting more time in Finnland (since she was annoyed that she got thrown out), and Rand obviously asked them quite a few questions.<br /><br />Also, I agree with others that she would ask something as shallow as who she is going to marry.  That's really out of character for her.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>Don't you know I've always loved you,<br />Even before there was time?<br />Though you turn away I tell you still-<br />Don't you know I've always loved you?<br />And I always will.</i></font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-18 17:50:44
subject: <b>What I suspect one of the questions is</b>
body:
I think one of the questions may have been:<br />How can I continue to guide/advise Rand. <br /><br />With the answer: Remember how to control Saidar.<br /><br />I suspect this because of her response to Egwene when Egwene asked her why she was letting Rand order her around (Apologies for not having reference) which was I remembered how to control Saidar which is a very curious thing to say, which makes me suspect it may have been one of the answers to her questions which she asked the Finns.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I have no patience for Fools or Idiots....its just a shame I know so many<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-18 18:24:47
subject: <b>Nice ideas</b>
body:
LNM - That is a good thought.  I don't think I would have thought of that.  I'm re-reading TSR right now and it seems unlikely that Moiraine did ask about Lan for her third question, after seeing her POVs later on.<br />Lithium - Actually, Moiraine states plainly that there are only three answers given.  See TSR 'Doorways':<br /><i>&quot;To what purpose?&quot;  Nynaeve asked.<br />&quot;To gain answers.  <b>Three</b> answers, each true, about past, present or future.&quot;</i><br />So, it is only three questions.  However, I do agree now that the Lan question probably was not asked.  But, I cannot see how Moiraine got around asking something that related to Thom's future.  She would not have had a clear enough idea from a Min viewing to promise to Thom that he would survive Tanchico.  Anyways, thanks for the good comments.  Keep 'em coming.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;The reason I won't tell people though is that I am enjoying watching them squirm entirely too much.&quot; - Robert Jordan</font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-18 18:27:56
subject: <b>one problem with the thom idea</b>
body:
Moiraine knows about Thom before she enters the doorway, i think.  In TGH (sorry no page numbers) Rand is thinking at one point about how Thom is dead (having left him in Whitebridge in EOTW), and that Moiraine insists otherwise, and assures him that he is not.  Moiraine was not in Whitebridge, and despite Rand's assertions that there is no way thom could have survived, Moiraine is certain that he did.  I think there was even a passage in EOTW to this effect.<br /><br />The point is, Moiraine already knew about Thom before going through the doorway.  Her source?  Probably Min, who after all can simply see two people together and know that they will marry.  That is probably her viewing about Moriaine which was 'wrong', as she believes.<br /><br />And since Moiraine puts great faith in Min's viewings, there would have been no need to ask about Thom in Finnland.  She knows he'll survive, since eventually they'll marry.


created: 2004-03-19 00:15:43
subject: <b>Not much she can ask about</b>
body:
Moiraine can't ask about anything closely related to Rand, or anything touching on the dark one, the black ajah, all the things she is burning to know about. She says those who ask the wrong questions come out mad, or don't come out at all. So she would be limited very sharply in which of the many vital questions she could ask. It would have been terribly frustrating choosing the questions. She would have had to ask things that would give her as much info on the future as possible within those strictures. Knowing that her own future must be closely bound to Rand's, she could ask some things that don't relate to him, and still get useful information. Mat took his time and asked, at first anyway, very carefully worded questions. I am sure that Moiraine did the same. I would like to know more about Rand's questions, myself...


created: 2004-03-19 02:30:31
subject: <b>Lithium, you must have skipped something</b>
body:
It specifically says in tSR that you are only allowed three questions.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-19 05:37:17
subject: <b>Interesting topic</b>
body:
And not often discussed as far as I know.<br /><br />I also think that Moiraine's knowldege of her future husband must come from Min, thus she had no need to ask more. <br /><br />Lan's future was already planned in TGH before Moiraine went through the doorway. <br />This means that Moiraine had already the notion that she will probably die soon, maybe also from Min.<br />Therefore I think Moiraine asked the Finn something about her possible death.<br /><br />Another question was certainly connected to Rand since this was the most important thing for Moiraine. <br />For example: How can I help/guide Rand best?<br />Maybe the Finn even answered that Moiraine she has to do evrything for Rand, maybe even to die for Rand or that she has to stay in his nearness, or something like this. <br /> <br />The third question was maybe: How much time have we before TG starts? <br />This should be very interesting for Moiraine and is not directly connected to the Shadow. <br />Of course Lan asks Moiraine in TFoH, ch.7, if she knows when the end is coming. Moiraine answers that: &quot;Do you mean Tarmon Gai'don? A redbird in Seleisin knows as well as I. The Light send, not so long as any of the seals remain unbroken.&quot; <br />Wonder if it could be somehow an AS lie or if the Finn answer was too unclear.<br /><br />Or, she asked something about the other two ta'veren, because Moiraine thinks in TSR, ch.21, that there are no companions of the Dragon mentioned in the Prophecies and that it is therefore difficult to handle them.<br />Thus she could have asked the Finn for guidance. <br />


created: 2004-03-19 06:00:15
subject: <b>One thing to keep in mind</b>
body:
From the best we can tell, the Eelfinn read a person's life thread, much like Min does. This is why they can see an individual's future/present/past and answer questions that pertain to that person in those regards. This is why you can only ask questions about yourself.<br /><br />At least that's the way I interpret it. So, if she got any information about anyone else from the Finns, it would have to be because they had some sort of role to play in Moiraine's future. <br /><br />Some of the questions may have sounded selfish, but they would have to be, in order to be answered. A carefully worded question could provide many useful answers, however.<br /><br />Just my thoughts.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-19 15:18:23
subject: <b>Death question</b>
body:
&quot;Therefore I think Moiraine asked the Finn something about her possible death.&quot;<br /><br />And it's interesting to speculate on how she might have phrased that question or combined her questions.<br /><br />One way would be to ask if she would be around to help Rand during TG.<br /><br />The cryptic answer she may have received may have included clues to other things, e.g. the fact Thom would be the one to ensure that she would be at TG, for instance.<br /><br />She may have puzzled out that she will be at TG but also be a visitor in Finnland for quite some time before, thus what she learns at Rhuidean could have convinced her the way to deal with Lanfear was to use the ter'angreal.  For example<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="images/personalsmilies/30778.gif" />Wheel of Time Reference Library : Articles, maps, charts and misc.<img src="images/personalsmilies/30778.gif" /><br /><br /></font><p><a href="http://13depository.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">The Thirteenth Depository - a Wheel of Time Blog</a></p><p></p>


created: 2004-03-19 16:00:56
subject: <b>Bah - sorry about that.</b>
body:
Yeah yeah, so it's only been 5 years since I read the book.  What I was thinking of though is that the other Finns (the snakes) could possibly grant more than three wishes...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>Don't you know I've always loved you,<br />Even before there was time?<br />Though you turn away I tell you still-<br />Don't you know I've always loved you?<br />And I always will.</i></font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-19 18:06:01
subject: <b>Mat got 4 questions answered - admittedly under duress.</b>
body:
Mat's first 3 were: &quot;Should I go home to help my people?&quot;<br /><br />&quot;Why should I (go to Rhuidean)?&quot;<br /><br />&quot;Why will I die if I do not go to Ruidean?&quot;<br /><br />Tney tell him that he has had his answers and try to get him out because the connection is threatening to break with 2 ta'veren in at once. He refuses to go and asks another question:<br /><br />&quot;What fate?&quot; Which they answer. Then they rush him out. <br /><br />Mat must be the first one to get more than the bargain out of them.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> Linda Sedai <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Proud member of the Embroiderer's Guild of the White Tower<br /><br /><b><font color="red">FAQ admin</font></b> </font>'cos the FAQ is where it's at.<br /><br /><b>Currently working on:</b> my 70th FAQ<p><a href="http://13depository.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">The thirteenth depository : A Wheel of Time blog</a></p><p></p>


created: 2004-03-19 23:05:53
subject: <b>I completely disagree with all three questions, except maybe Lan</b>
body:
The conversation with Thom, and the fact that she &quot;knows&quot; her future husband has a much simpler explanation, one of Min's visions.  In the first 5 or 6 books she can't talk about her visions without mentioning the fact that sometimes she'll see a man and a woman and know that they'll marry, even if they've never spoken before.<br /><br />As for the second one, the letter told Moiraine that she would be in Chaendaer that day, &quot;They wrote that they would meet us here, on Chaendaer, today.  I thought it . . . unlikely . . . until Rand mentioned the Stones.&quot;  So Moiraine was more likely astounded by the fact that Rand was going to go to Rhuidien, where the WO had very nearly commanded her to go.  I would think that if she asked about the WO letter she wouldn't have had so many questions for the WOs themselves when they finally make it to Rhuidien.<br /><br />To LNM, it's highly unlikely that she asked about how to control Rand since she didn't surrender to Rand until about two or three months after she went through the doorway.<br /><br />To Etzel, the reason it hasn't been discussed is because there is no evidence on what her questions were, unlike Rand where he gives clues as to what his questions were.<br /><br />To Lithium, I totally agree with you on the wishes, there's nothing that indicates that there is a limit on wishes, however, just making three nearly cost Mat his life, I don't want to know what the price would be for more.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sir Jim<br />Lord of Minutia&#8482;<br />King of WoT MB Posts&#8482;<br /><br />Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so.</font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-20 04:28:03
subject: <b>Rebuttals</b>
body:
To the question about Moiraine's letter from the Wise Ones, I read this in TSR: <i>&quot;That had been the most astounding letter from them, not that she could afford to heed most of it.&quot; </i> -TSR Into the Heart<br />This is BEFORE she learns that Rand has decided to go to Rhuidean.  Why would she be astounded that the Wise Ones demanded her to show up and be there in a couple of days?  I don't think Moiraine would find that &quot;astounding.&quot;  Interesting, probably.  Astounding?  No.  There must have been something else.  Is it likely that it would have spawned something that she would ask about?  Highly.<br />And lastly, about the three <b>ANSWERS</b>.  That's right.  It's ANSWERS, not 'Wishes.'  Nowhere has it indicated that the Snake People grant Wishes.  Only the Fox People could be implied to grant requests, but it has NEVER said wishes.  <br />(pet peeve rant is now over <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />)<br />Anyways, does anyone read posts before making theirs?!  I've quoted Moiraine in TSR.  She specifically said only <b>THREE</b> answers.  So, even if you believe the limit is different... Who cares?  Moiraine believed the three answers, so she would have only asked three questions.  There you go.<br />linda_sedai - Great point.  I had just looked that up and it was 4 questions Mat asked.  However, it seemed like they answered more just to get him to leave them alone.  Kind of like a store clerk who wants you to leave the store at closing, and thus will grant your request for a free movie just to get you out and settle the debate over whether or not you deserve it.  The clerk wouldn't under normal circumstances, but, hey, it's closing.  That's the feeling I got from Mat's answers.<br />Lastly, the TG questions wouldn't have been asked by Moiraine.  Too closely tied to the Shadow.  She wouldn't ask when it was going to be.  TG is a tainted-question.  (For lack of better term.)  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;The reason I won't tell people though is that I am enjoying watching them squirm entirely too much.&quot; - Robert Jordan</font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-20 05:02:36
subject: <b>Two comments</b>
body:
To Jim,<br /><br /><b> To Etzel, the reason it hasn't been discussed is because there is no evidence on what her questions were, unlike Rand where he gives clues as to what his questions were. </b><br /><br />The answers surely influenced Moiraine's actions, otherwise it would be pointless. <br />We also have several Moiraine PoV and can eleminate some question (e.g. about her husband since she apparently knew that already) and some others seem likely. <br />You can try to put yourself in Moiraine's place to figure what you had asked in her situation. <br /><br />Since Moiraine was surprised that also Mat and Perrin are ta'veren and had no clue of their significance, I believe it's likely that she asked a question somehow connected to them.<br />Also questions connected to her possible death, Rand or Tarmon Gai'don seem likely.<br /><br />On the other hand, Moiraine didn't want to go to the Aiel Waste. That means she didn't learn from the Finn to go to Rhuidean like Mat.<br />Also Moiraine already decided in TGH that after her death Lan's bond shall pass to Myrelle and finally to Nynaeve, therefore she likely didn't ask a question connected to Lan.<br /><br />Of course it's mainly speculation but should be discussed nevertheless since there are some clues in the books.<br /><br /><br />To vageabcissa,<br /><br /><b> Lastly, the TG questions wouldn't have been asked by Moiraine. Too closely tied to the Shadow. She wouldn't ask when it was going to be. TG is a tainted-question. (For lack of better term.) </b><br /><br />I don't think that a TG question would be too closely tied to the Shadow. <br />We know that Rand got the answer &quot;the only way to live is to die.&quot;<br />His question must have been something like: &quot;How can I survive the Last Battle&quot;. <br />This question is not directly connected to the Shadow.<br />


created: 2004-03-20 07:00:21
subject: <b>Not necessarily</b>
body:
The Moiraine thing...  She never stated that she didn't want to go to the Waste.  She was just surprised that Rand had decided that way.<br />Next, how can you ask a question about a battle that doesn't somehow involve the two sides?  Without friend and foe, the battle doesn't exist, thus any question about the Last Battle does in some way touch the Shadow.  Moiraine would be too cautious to ask a question without knowing the consequences.<br />Another thing about the husband... Everyone is dismissing it out of hand, but if you think about it, from Min's viewing she could only know that she would be getting married to Thom.  Perhaps she asked if he should go to Tanchico with the girls or if she should keep him close by.  Wouldn't a woman like Moiraine be worried about letting him go and having Thom be changed or hurt?  Remember Min's viewing could only be that Moiraine would be married to Thom and nothing else, since we don't know more about it.  Moiraine's &amp; Thom's actions could determine whether they end up happy together, Thom missing a hand or brain or turned the Dark, etc., you get the idea.<br />Lastly, you should always be very careful using words like MUST.<br />'His question must have been something like: &quot;How can I survive the Last Battle&quot;. ' - Etzel<br />Maybe Rand just asked how to stay alive to see his mission accomplished or how to live with the taint.  Both of these questions, worded right, could easily give him an answer that not necessarily was what he sought.<br /><br />One quick question for everyone... What did you guys think of the proof within the proof that Moiraine would be getting married?  I've seen some dissenting opinions that she would marry Thom or even get married at all.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;The reason I won't tell people though is that I am enjoying watching them squirm entirely too much.&quot; - Robert Jordan</font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-20 08:15:08
subject: <b>Re:</b>
body:
<b> The Moiraine thing... She never stated that she didn't want to go to the Waste. She was just surprised that Rand had decided that way. </b><br /><br />Moiraine is surprised and doesn't want that Rand goes into the waste: <br /><br />'&quot;You are not an Aiel clan chief, Rand,&quot; she [Moiraine] said firmly, &#8220;and have no need to be one. Your struggle is<br />on this side of the Dragonwall. Unless.... Does this come from your answers in the ter&#8217;angreal? Cairhien, and<br />Callandor, and Rhuidean? I told you those answers can be cryptic. You could be misunderstanding them, and<br />that could prove fatal. To more than you.&quot;'<br /><br />I think if Moiraine had known that she has to go there, she had reacted in another way.<br /><br /><b> Next, how can you ask a question about a battle that doesn't somehow involve the two sides? Without friend and foe, the battle doesn't exist, thus any question about the Last Battle does in some way touch the Shadow. Moiraine would be too cautious to ask a question without knowing the consequences. <br /><br />Maybe Rand just asked how to stay alive to see his mission accomplished or how to live with the taint. Both of these questions, worded right, could easily give him an answer that not necessarily was what he sought. </b><br /><br />A question like I suggested doesn't touch the Shadow directly.   <br />A different thing would be the question what the Forsaken plan for example.<br />In my view you just are not allowed to ask questions which are directly conntected to the Shadow.<br /><br />I don't see why in your view a question about the taint doesn't touch the Shadow but a question about the Last Battle. <br /><br />And it is clear that Rand asked something about cleansing saidin. <br />If this was possible, a question about TG was certainly possible as well.<br /><br />When Rand thinks about the Finn's answer it's clear that Rand considers that it means his possible surviving of the Last Battle. <br />He wouldn't be so sure if he just asked the Finn a general question about his death. <br /><br />Therefore I believe Rand asked the Finn, how he can survive TG, and also Moiriane could have asked something about the Last Battle. <br /><br />


created: 2004-03-20 15:20:51
subject: <b>I agree with you, Etzel on the questions Rand asked.</b>
body:
He asked how to survive TG - &quot;If you would live, you must die&quot; was the answer.<br /><br />He asked how to cleanse saidin and got a riddle for an answer. Which he worked out how to use after feeling how his wounds reacted to each other when he was in Shadar Logoth in ACOS.<br /><br />The third question may have been about how to not Break the world again - in TFOH he thinks about how he is prophesised to Break the world again and the idea horrifies him. He read 3 books of the Prophecies in Tear before going in to the doorway so it would have been another thing uppermost in his mind.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> Linda Sedai <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Proud member of the Embroiderer's Guild of the White Tower<br /><br /><b><font color="red">FAQ admin</font></b> </font>'cos the FAQ is where it's at.<br /><br /><b>Currently working on:</b> my 70th FAQ<p><a href="http://13depository.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">The thirteenth depository : A Wheel of Time blog</a></p><p></p>


created: 2004-03-20 15:28:53
subject: <b>That's what I meant by 'under duress'.</b>
body:
They were desperate for him to be gone and so answered his 4th question. <br /><br />My point is it's an <i>agreed</i> limit, not an <i>absolute</i> one. <br /><br />The Finns are traders, though strange and dangerous ones. There is an excellent theory on them being traders.<br /><br />Mat unknowingly used the situation to his advantage and got the better of the bargain. A pity Moiraine wasn't able to get the better of them as Mat did.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> Linda Sedai <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Proud member of the Embroiderer's Guild of the White Tower<br /><br /><b><font color="red">FAQ admin</font></b> </font>'cos the FAQ is where it's at.<br /><br /><b>Currently working on:</b> my 70th FAQ<p><a href="http://13depository.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">The thirteenth depository : A Wheel of Time blog</a></p><p></p>


created: 2004-03-20 17:02:21
subject: <b>lol</b>
body:
linda_sedai:  good thoughts.  Guess that proves that Mat is a better &quot;trickster&quot; (in words of the Snake People) than Moiraine.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br />etzel:  Okay, you got me there.  If Rand asked about the taint, which he assuredly did, then it would have to be possible to ask about TG.  MAN!  I hate being wrong.  Oh well.  Good job. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br />Anyways, about Moiraine's motivation to talk Rand out of Rhuidean...  I can see her trying to talk him out of it b/c she doesn't believe that that is the way to go.  If my proof was correct, then she has it set in her head that she isn't going and that she is going to stay with Rand and make him get done what needs to be done.  (Which is, in her mind, to attack Illian)  Therefore, even if she knew she should go to Rhuidean and Rand had decided to go there, she would still try to talk him out of it in order to force him to do the right thing.  That was what I was trying to get across.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;The reason I won't tell people though is that I am enjoying watching them squirm entirely too much.&quot; - Robert Jordan</font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-24 00:32:50
subject: <b>one question u forgot</b>
body:
If u remember in TSR when we go to Moraines POV just before she jumps Lanfear.<br />She knows exactly were Lanfear is going to stand before she jumps up and attacks Lanfear.<br />As she looks up she knows how all this wiil happen.<br />She must have asked the Finns about what would happen to her if she went to Rhuidean.<br />So thats what I think<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I wanted you to see what real courage is, instead of getting the idea that courage is a man with a gun in his hand. It's when you know you're licked before you begin but you begin anyway and you see it through no matter what<br /><br /><br /><br /> <br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-24 07:34:21
subject: <b>Wrong...</b>
body:
Moiraine knows exactly where Lanfear was going to stand because of her visions in Rhuidean.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Taking responsibility drains all the fun out of live and dries a man to dust.<br /><br /> - Mat Caughton<br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-24 12:41:39
subject: <b>also...</b>
body:
Moiraine didn't know that she was supposed to go inside Rhuidean.  The Wise Ones let it slip that they knew she would go to the Rings b/c of their dreams...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;The reason I won't tell people though is that I am enjoying watching them squirm entirely too much.&quot; - Robert Jordan</font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-26 20:28:36
subject: <b>To change my first post-</b>
body:
I am now convinced Moiraine did not ask &quot;if Thom would survive Tanchico&quot;. It is obvious that you only get your own life &quot;read&quot;.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-27 00:00:12
subject: <b>Think about why she would HAVE a husband</b>
body:
Moraine is/was an Aes Sedai who was dedicated to ensuring that the Dragon Reborn would survive to fight the Final Battle. That was where her head was at and unlike Nyneave and Elayne had expressed zero romantic interest in anyone. Her goal was to help Rand survive and thats it. She proved this by sacrificing herself to kill Lanfear.<br /><br />So its 100% out of character for her to ask a question on &quot;Who will be the man that I marry?&quot;. In my oppinion Jofraz and Etzel have it right, she was told by Min that she would marry Thom. Espescially given that Min says she can know if two people will be maried.  But thats not what I want to talk about.<br /><br />Aes Sedai are not in the habit of getting maried. Name me one AS that was maried at the end of The Fires of Heaven.  The only time a AS would get married is if she was burned out or was stilled. They would do this to give themselves something else to focus on and therefore live longer (sorry dont have quote, think its from Great Hunt though). <br /><br />Moirane was no dummy and would have put 2 and 2 together and realised that if Min was right, and she always is,  then she would in the future be cut of from the source. Not only would this suck for her but it would seriously limit her ability to get Rand to the Final Battle which was her objective since she was an Accepted. If she is going to ask questions about herself, what could be more important than to ask about being cut of from the source. Something like:<br />&quot;How will I be burned out?&quot;<br />&quot;How can I prevent being burned out?&quot;<br />&quot;What will happen if I follow that course of action&quot;<br /><br />3 questions that relate to only her and do not touch directly on the Shadow.<br /><br />I think she was told that she would be burned out batleing Lanfear in the Ter doorway, that she could prevent being burned out by leaving Lanfear for Rand to kill, <br />and that if she did leave Lanfear for Rand to kill that Rand would be unable to kill her and would then fall under her(Lanfear's) spell. <br /><br />And thats why she did what she did. <br />


created: 2004-03-28 22:38:24
subject: <b>Sorry, don't buy it</b>
body:
Moiraine stated specifically at the end of TFOH that she had foreseen the Lanfear scene while in the rings.  Therefore, she might have reasoned out that she could be burned out in the future, but she would not have asked about the Lanfear scene.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;The reason I won't tell people though is that I am enjoying watching them squirm entirely too much.&quot; - Robert Jordan</font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-28 22:57:59
subject: <b>Etzel..... I agree.....</b>
body:
Min had to be the one to tell Moiraine who she would marry. Thanks for pointing that out.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>you know you can't leave Wotmania. It's kinda like herpes, you can just never really get rid of it.</i><br />Kit <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /></font><p><a href="http://www.cbgxtra.com/" target="_blank">Comics Buyer's Guide XTRA</a></p><p></p>


created: 2004-08-02 11:46:58
subject: <b>Aes Sedai do marry!</b>
body:
Just a point of clairification, but it is stated that Aes Sedai do marry. Greens sometimes marry their Warders, and that Myrelle, for one, supposedly had married ALL of hers. Sorry, no quote or reference, but I beleive it to be correct.


created: 2004-11-07 21:22:51
subject: <b>Moiraine vs Rand</b>
body:
I totally agree with the original theory that Moiraine's questions had little to do with the Shadow at best.  Let's look at the facts:<br /><br />Moiraine got her information about the <i>ter'angreal</i> from information from other Aes Sedai.  They described the &quot;unclean&quot; feeling afterwards, and also the connection between questions about the Shadow and unfortunate things happening to people who asked them.  Moiraine is firmly convinced that she can ask nothing that directly touches the Shadow.  In fact, she does not trust the Wonder Girls with entering the doorway.  If she thought she could work up clever enough questions about Rand that didn't touch the Shadow, she would have sent in the Girls one by one to ask the questions.  Maximum results, eh?  Therefore, it's not really fair to rule out frivolous questions about who she would marry (although I agree that she got the info from Min, because she talks about this way back in TEOTW).<br /><br />Rand, on the other hand, is clueless about such prohibitions.  He gets his information from two books:  <i>Treasures of the Stone of Tear</i> and <i>Dealings with the Territory of Mayene</i>.  It's unlikely that either of these two books spelt out the dangers of questions touching the Shadow.  Unfortunately for the Aelfinn, Rand cheated.  Rand says that the Snakes were scared of him from the start, and after a while he brought the firey sword out, which, counting as &quot;fire,&quot; broke the agreement and allowed Rand to get out unscathed.  That's why Rand's questions, which blatantly deal with Shadowy Stuff, are passed over.


created: 2005-03-02 16:34:27
subject: <b>not really</b>
body:
Moiraine definitely found out about thom through Min.<br /><br />these questions would all be <b>very</b> uncharacteristic for dragon-obsessed Moiraine<br /><br />i wonder if you could ask the Eelfin(they're the wish ones, right?) to do this:<br />&quot;i wish you will tell me the true answer to this question:&quot;<br />that way, through both finns, you could get 6 answers. hehe, there's always a way to cheat...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">-Sabin<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2006-01-19 18:24:05
subject: <b>Pretty good...</b>
body:
Apart from the first one. i'm sure the answer was that she would marry Thom, BUT that would not have been the question. It'd be more like, What will happen to me after the last battle, or somesuch.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Life: Loathe it or ignore it, you can't like it.&quot; The Paranoid Android</font><p></p>


created: 2006-06-03 22:02:13
subject: <b>Just a Thought</b>
body:
You[Thom]will survive Tarabon.' - TSR 'Deceptions'<br />doesnt thom and Mat plus a thrid dude have to save her and she told thom that he would in the letter just a thought


created: 2007-08-12 12:06:47
subject: <b>Agreed</b>
body:
Good thinking, interesting subject. I agree with it all except for the question about Lan. <br />Before her 'death' at the docks, she didn't even bother to give much thought to Lan, possibly dead, and we know from earlier books that she always kept in her head the fact that Lan was in so many near-death experiences throughout his life, there was too much of a chance that he'd end up dead at any point to give much thought to it. <br />Also, if she actually did ask a question about Lan, I don't believe she would ask about her future with him. That is entirely too self-centered. I believe she'd ask something that included her sort of in the sidelines, as she believed it had to do something with her own future. BUT, I suppose one could argue that with something as strong as the Warder bond between her and him, any question to do with him would be linked to her.<br />I fancy that if she asked about Lan, she asked about either his future with Nynaeve instead of herself, or when he'd die, or how. <br />Thanks for the theory! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;I helped bury them, my boy. On that low hill, the one with the apple trees.&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2008-07-05 02:47:17
subject: <b>Questions must be about one's own future..</b>
body:
To get true answers in Finnland.<br /><br />Thus, any questions about Thom's future, or Elayne's or anyone else's besides hers wouldn't get a true answer.<br /><br />Now, Moiraine is smart enough to couch a question like that in terms of her own future (what must I do to ensure Elayne's safety? or Who is my future husband?). <br /><br />But I rather think she would be focused on more important matters (the husband question is certainly out). While she was focused on the Dark One and the Last battle, she also indicated that such a question could be dangerous, so she might have avoided the topic altogether. <br /><br />I favor a Min viewing about Thom.<br /><br />


created: 2004-03-18 08:55:59
subject: <b>IS this even a theory</b>
body:
Just mild speculation.<br />What is it doing here??????<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" />shadow killer<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-18 09:03:44
subject: <b>Maybe, maybe not...</b>
body:
Uno's future importance is mere speculation, which could be, our could not be true - RAFO, I guess.<br /><br />Also, I do not understand the connection between Nynaeve's affection/loyalty for/to Rand and Uno's rise to stardom?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> Let the Lord of Chaos rock'n'rule <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-18 13:12:20
subject: <b>Hmm</b>
body:
Yeah I agree,<br /><br />This theory is more worth a MB post.  There is nothing of substance in it.<br /><br />It is a cool idea, and I liked that you pointed out the pun, but there is almost nothing to discuss here.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">--The Real Matrimony Cauthon--<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-18 13:48:30
subject: <b>Hmm...</b>
body:
Never saw Uno as such an important character. <br />I think Uno had already his big time when he helped Nynaeve &amp; Egwene in TFoH.<br /><br />We haven't heard much of him since TFoH, therefore I doubt that he will suddenly play a mayor role in the next books.<br /><br />But who knows...<br />


created: 2004-03-18 15:45:29
subject: <b>One thing's for sure...</b>
body:
If Rand confronts the Amyrlin Seat (Egwene), Uno may take his part of the Aes Sedai army and defect over to Rand. That would certainly upset the Amyrlin Seat, who, by the nature of her position, would be arrogrant enough to think she deserves to be Supreme Commander of the &quot;Allied Army of the Light&quot; in Tarmon Gai'don.<br /><br />No ruler, least of all a Pope or Amyrlin, appreciate interference into his/her military command and civilian administration, no matter the superiority of the interferer.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Gaeran Amaconde<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />Grand Historian at the Court of the Sun<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />One of Those Chosen to Bring the Light<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" />Master of Graendal's Revels<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" />&quot;If sometimes our dreams come true, what of our nightmares?&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-18 17:25:41
subject: <b>...</b>
body:
I think the pun was directed to the fact that he only has one eye. Just my thoughts.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Roses are red <br />Violets are blue <br />I'm schizophrenic <br />And so am I <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/crazy.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smackhead.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-19 00:06:20
subject: <b>Hey!</b>
body:
Hey folks, go easy on me! ;--) This is only my second accepted theory. OK, so maybe it is a little thin, but that is because there just isn't much info to go on. The fact that Uno was the very first to swear fealty to Rand is significant. Everything in these books is linked symbolically. There is no evidence for it, but I wouldn't be surprised to see that it is one-eyed Uno who saves Rand after is becomes effectively blind from his sickness. The one-eyed man leqding the blind? I doubt that Rand has forgotten UNO.


created: 2004-03-19 00:20:34
subject: <b>What about</b>
body:
Hurin? What happened to that guy, just dissapeared into the void. He better be back sometime, he had one of the coolest abilities in the series <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sir, I admit your general rule<br />That every poet is a fool.<br />But you yourself may serve to show it,<br />That every fool is not a poet.<br /> <br />Shendolin Valderen on the RPG <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-19 05:38:02
subject: <b>Not much to say</b>
body:
But I think Hurin is actually Rand's first loyal follower. He latched onto Rand and didn't leave even when confronted with the Portal Stone world, White Cloaks, Seanchan and the Heroes of the Horn. He taught Rand how to act like a leader and a lord, as well as take responsibilty for those under him.<br /><br />Uno may have been the first to swear, but Hurin played a much bigger role in shaping Rand into what he is.<br /><br />Uno will no doubt have some part to play in the future, but probably not a big role, IMO.<br /><br />Just my thoughts.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-19 06:22:59
subject: <b>I personally wouldn't call this a theory</b>
body:
More of a speculative question. I definately agree that Uno probably going ot be featured more.... just don't know how major.<br /><br />Personally I think that Uno will be just another brief PoV or something during TG.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Fortune rides like the sun on high<br />with the fox that makes the ravens fly.<br />Luck his soul, the lightning his eye,<br />He snatches the moons from out the sky.&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-19 17:00:47
subject: <b>Uno's Purpose</b>
body:
Maybe Uno's future is to help Mat cope with losing his eye...... <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />


created: 2004-03-20 02:58:49
subject: <b>I like your idea</b>
body:
I'm a believer that there will be some sort of struggle between Egwene and Rand as the Wheel turns in a similar way that it turned for LTT when he had a big problem with the leader AS of the women's faction.  This is more like a wish on my part though, and I would love Uno to bolt from Egwene and take all the heavy Cavalry with him.  I just don't know if the other guys would betray Gareth Bryne though.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-20 09:40:58
subject: <b>Uno knows his place.</b>
body:
Uno is just one of those numbskulls you see in Hollywood swashbuckler films. You know the kind with English accents that are always doffing their caps to the American nobles. Other examples include Hurin,Harnan and especially that gatekeeper in Baerlon whose name i can't remember. I half expected him to say &quot;God Bless Robin Hood.&quot;


created: 2004-03-21 11:19:57
subject: <b>uno</b>
body:
i agree with Aiel Tears, it was a pun about him only having one eye.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Seeking Aes Sedai for Bondage... uhh bonding. <br /><br />We rode on the winds of the rising storm,<br />We ran to the sounds of the thunder,<br />We danced among the lightning bolts,<br />and tore the world asunder.</font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-25 14:00:58
subject: <b>The Amyrlin's Wrath</b>
body:
This isn't necessarilly about the theory, but just a comment.<br /><br />&quot;This is where it gets tricky and speculative. According to Elaida's foretelling, the Dragon Reborn will &quot;face the Amyrlin Seat and know her wrath&quot;. This probably does not refer to Elaida, but to Egwene. (Maybe she will be mad at him if he rescues her from the White Tower? ;-)&quot;<br /><br />I think you're right and this fortelling actually refers to Egwene as Amyrlin, not Elaida, but I think her wrath will actually be over Rand making Aes Sedai swear fealty to him, if I remember correctly (and I don't have my books here for a reference) she was pretty angry once she found out about the fealty.<br /><br /><br />As for the theory, I think some of the other posters were right when they said that while Uno may play a part in the coming books and events I don't think it'll be as big a role as he had in protecting Elayne and Nynaeve and helping them find their way to Salidar or as big a role as he plays in training soldiers under Gareth Bryne, IMO.<br />


created: 2004-04-05 16:59:04
subject: <b>Wrath?</b>
body:
Well... Rand will face the Amyrlin Seat (Egg) and know her anger. But Rand ALREADY knows Egg's wrath. He's known it since the beginning of the series. Angry girlfriends are always a pickle. So who knows, maybe Egg won't be mad at him when he faces her as Amyrlin. It doesn't say it has to happen at the same time.


created: 2004-03-19 13:58:54
subject: <b>probability</b>
body:
&quot;simple probability, if you have infinite tries, no matter how low the probability, if it is possible it will happen&quot;<br /><br />This sounds like classical, paradox-generating intuition of probability. I don't think this is true.<br />For example, consider a typical branching process with constant offspring distribution etc. At any generation there is a positive probability of extinction, but if the mean of the offspring distribution is greater than one, then there is a positive probability that the population will never become extinct.<br />


created: 2004-03-19 14:23:58
subject: <b>probability and other thoughts</b>
body:
I understand and agree with your logic that if there is a chance of the DO breaking free, given infinite time, he WILL break free.  However, I'm not sure if I can support your conclusion.  RJ's description of the wheel seems to suggest that time is infinte, in BOTH directions.  If that is true, then I don't think we can say that the light is slowly gaining in power.  If the light WERE gaining in power, and had been for all time, then the light would have already overwhelmed the DO and we wouldn't have the current state of affairs that we see.  However, having said that, I agree that it seems that the light does have a growing ally in the Heroes of the Horn.  I think that this is just a localized event (relative to the turning of the wheel) that does not hold true for all turnings of the wheel.  Perhaps the horn only belongs to this revolution of the wheel and there are no Heroes of the Horn in future revolutions.  Or perhaps at the end of a revolution, all of the heroes are &quot;wiped out&quot;, for lack of a better term, and are then slowly replaced in the future ages, along with a different device to summon them (drum set of valere, anyone?).  I think that the Heroes of the Horn are mostly just one of the many parts of the big ole check and balance system that is called the pattern.    <br /><br />So... interesting theory, but you don't have enough evidence here to convince me that there is an ongoing 'pro-light' trend  in the pattern.  If there were a trend, there would be some extreme consequences, as I pointed out above.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">-Wildman<br />We need a StrongBad smiley code.</font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-19 17:59:35
subject: <b>Mmmmm...</b>
body:
According to Ishamael, the Dark One has broken free before in other Ages. Also, sometimes the Dragon fought for the Light, other times, for the Dark One, at least according to Ishamael. This can be supported by Artur Hawkwing's comment that he has fought for the Dragon as much as against him.<br /><br />So the Wheel will infinitely turn, turning light and dark at various times.<br /><br />Rand, although a fantastic ta'veren, is a mortal and, as such, has finite powers. He cannot break the Wheel of Time and remake the world in his own image. Perhaps with the Choedan Kal and more, he can crack the Wheel, but he cannot divinely remake the world.<br /><br />Artur Hawkwing: &quot;Sometimes the Wheel adds to our number.&quot;--This is supported and clarified by the Big White Book: the more the Pattern deviates from what the Wheel intended, the more the Wheel would churn out more ta'veren, more Heroes. The fact that the Prophecies predicted one ta'veren (the Dragon Reborn), notwithstanding that prophecy about Mat, means the Pattern is in even more trouble than thought before, hence the need for 3 ta'veren to counter the Shadow. Therefore, while adding number may be great, it is UNDESIRABLE. This would mean the Shadow has gotten stronger than the Wheel intended.<br /><br />Sure, the Pattern works for its own interest! I agree. The same goes for our general wailing about the world being such a cruel place under a supposedly loving God. Without struggle, our spiritual evolution (if you believe that) would stagnate. The universe needs a balance. If the balance always tip toward Good or Evil, the universe would be negatively affected. That is why we have Tarmon Gai'don's, Armageddon's, al'Qiyamah's, Last Battle's, etc.<br /><br />Even RJ has indicated that the outcome of Tarmon Gai'don is in doubt. It has been repeatedly mentioned that Rand has one very slim, tiny chance to defeat the Dark One. We have seen it in his alternate lives in the Portal Stone trip to Toman's Head: any other action, any other decision has led to the Dark One's victory (&quot;I win again, Lews Therin.&quot; ), so the path that Rand is currently treading may be the right one, however narrow it is, to victory for the Light.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Gaeran Amaconde<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />Grand Historian at the Court of the Sun<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />One of Those Chosen to Bring the Light<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" />Master of Graendal's Revels<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" />&quot;If sometimes our dreams come true, what of our nightmares?&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-20 10:27:47
subject: <b>Could be</b>
body:
However it is more of a balancing factor.<br /><br />It could be that the Dark One and Creator switch places everytime either one breaks free.<br /><br />They then wipe the slate and start over for a new set of cycles until the other breaks free and vice versa.<br /><br />Either way with an infinite chance at escaping the Dark One WILL eventually break free. All it will take is one turning of the Wheel to be kept close enough to the original for him to rectify his mistakes.<br /><br />However the Pattern takes this into account and adds enough changes.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Life is a journey of sorrow and agony, the only thing keeping us going is that light at the end of the tunnel.</font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-21 11:20:08
subject: <b>My take</b>
body:
ryan has an interesting point, he could break free, and i think he did in the AOL, the forces of the light were almost utterly destroyed, hence the plan for the choedan kal and the sa'angreal, and the other plan to seal the bore.<br /><br />both were a last ditch effort to seal the dark one away, not to stop him escaping, IMO.<br /><br />basically, he can escape, but then the light gets stronger, like a build up in pressure, the light is forced into a smaller and smaller space, and then bam, out pops LTT and seals the bore.<br /><br />i think of it like a pendulum, it can swing either way, but that just means its gunna swing BACK just as hard to &quot;balance out&quot;<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Seeking Aes Sedai for Bondage... uhh bonding. <br /><br />We rode on the winds of the rising storm,<br />We ran to the sounds of the thunder,<br />We danced among the lightning bolts,<br />and tore the world asunder.</font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-23 11:33:01
subject: <b>Increasing Heroes of the Horn</b>
body:
If balefire burns a thread out of the pattern couldn't balefire   balance out the increase that is talked about?


created: 2004-03-24 21:29:24
subject: <b>crazy peoples!</b>
body:
how could the fact that Artur Hawkwing stating that &quot;i have fought with you as many times as i have been at your side&quot; or something like that, mean that the DRAGON had been evil. to blindly assume such a thing is to not use one's god-given BRAIN. for GOD SAKE MAN!!! USE YOUR BRAIN!!! is it not equally possible that either:<br />1. the horn had been used by the forces of evil, thus the heroes would subsequentially BE evil, or as good as it, since they would in theory, by fighting against the forces of good.<br />2. Hawkwing himself had been evil during that life, thus, as one of the strongest Ta'veren of all time, naturally want to attack the main champion of the light.<br />3. No man is perfect, perhaps they were both part of the forces of good, and merely had a dispute, I.E.: Hawkwing: &quot;curse you, Dragon!, you killed my children, you must DIE!!!!!! or Rand: &quot;Blood and Bloody ashes!!! How could you (theoretically hawking accidentally or unknowingly helps one of the forsaken)help one of the  Forsaken, unless you are an evil minion of the Dark ONe?!?! You must die!!!&quot;<br /><br />i am not saying that is is impossible for the dragon to have been evil, merely that this statement from Hawkwing does nothing to prove either way, the alignment of past Dragons.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> &quot;I'm the D.O.&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /> &quot;No I am&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rand.gif" border="0" /> &quot;KILL THEM!&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /> &quot;You can't possibly win!&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" />*smirks* &quot;Ya wanna make a bet???&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perrin.gif" border="0" /> *mutters* &quot;stupid axe&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/avi.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/min.gif" border="0" /> &quot;YOU CAN DO IT!&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-26 10:55:51
subject: <b>Very Interesting</b>
body:
I agree with the previous post - Hawkwing can't just be taken at his word.<br /><br />About the theory: I would like to agree, but I can't given what RJ has said about the Wheel. Time is indeed infinite, so I don't think this theory applies. This theory makes me think of something Ishamael said to Rand in The Great Hunt about this being the final turning of the Wheel. I had always liked this idea, since it seems to give a unique importance to Rand. However, RJ has said that this is not the last turning of the Wheel, since the Wheel turns infinitely. I'm not sure how this all works out, of course. That is, if the DO breaks free and remakes the Wheel, how can he be re-imprisoned? It would not be like the Wheel just wove him back in again, since the Wheel would have been broken. Unless there is a minor Wheel and an Uber-Wheel, and the DO can only break the minor Wheel. But that is unlikely I think.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">May you always walk in the Light,<br /><br />Adan, Jenn Aiel</font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-26 10:56:42
subject: <b>BTW</b>
body:
I voted a thumbs up because I liked the theory, even though I don't think it is correct.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">May you always walk in the Light,<br /><br />Adan, Jenn Aiel</font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-26 17:24:44
subject: <b>LOL</b>
body:
... He called him Arthur Hawkwing. It's really Artur Hawkwing. Good one! Arthur... <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Pronounced: &quot;Rand was here&quot;<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shakefist.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-28 00:41:01
subject: <b>Evil is Relative...</b>
body:
We all can agree that Rand al'Thor is not evil, Haruka. But to the general people of the Westlands, the Dragon Reborn is little better than the Dark One. Refer to the panic in Emond's Field upon the news that there's a man proclaiming himself Dragon in Ghealdan in TEotW.<br /><br />Ishamael have said that the Dragon has fought for the Dark One before. He could be lying, but he's our best source of information about other Ages, being the philosopher that he was. Cadsuane has warned that if Rand continues to harden himself, his victory at Tarmon Gai'don would be as bad as the Dark One winning.<br /><br />Furthermore, I find it interesting that everyone see Judas Iscariot as evil, while we do not see Mat's possible betrayal of Rand as evil. Many even seem to think that Lanfear and Asmodean were not inherently evil in spite of being Forsaken. Ingtar was not evil in spite of being a Darkfriend before turning to Rand and dying in Falme.<br /><br />Evil is relative. There's nothing black and white about this world or in the world of WoT. That still applies to the Dragon Reborn.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Gaeran Amaconde<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />Grand Historian at the Court of the Sun<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />One of Those Chosen to Bring the Light<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" />Master of Graendal's Revels<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" />&quot;If sometimes our dreams come true, what of our nightmares?&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-04-05 16:54:29
subject: <b>I thought</b>
body:
RJ said the Dragon has been turned in the past, and when that happens, the pattern hurls up someone new to lead the light forces.


created: 2004-04-12 17:25:05
subject: <b>What if the wheel is destroyed?</b>
body:
What if Rand doesn't remake the world in his image,which it seems is not possible, but either he or the Great Lord destroys the wheel and time just goes on with no rebirth? It seems that everyone relies heavily on the hope of rebirth, but what if they can no longer be reborn? Then Randland would indeed become an early form of Earth. Especially with Saidar seeming to falter and the Red Ajah culling the ability to channel out of the world. Overall though, I thought that this was a good theory.


created: 2004-03-19 22:19:29
subject: <b>actually it was Hopper that told Perrin to stop</b>
body:
And he had already circled around the ToG twice and was preparing for a third time.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sir Jim<br />Lord of Minutia&#8482;<br />King of WoT MB Posts&#8482;<br /><br />Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so.</font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-19 22:23:45
subject: <b>I agree</b>
body:
Like I said before in posts on the MB that Perrin and Mat are going to meet up. Something is going to come out. They head to the Tower of Ghenjei????<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Life is a journey of sorrow and agony, the only thing keeping us going is that light at the end of the tunnel.</font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-20 02:41:07
subject: <b>Yeah.</b>
body:
At least it seems that that's what RJ had in mind when he introduced the Tower of Ghenjei.  So it remains to be seen if RJ would keep this view.<br /><br />In Celtic folklore, there is usually only a certain time such as twilight when you can circle a cairn or some special place to enter the fairyland.  And interestingly Liandrin is troubled by Twilight in TGH, and describes this as the time when the DO stirrs the most.   I don't know that comment about the DO just popped into my head.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-20 03:11:21
subject: <b>Agreed!</b>
body:
Gave it a thumb up. We'll see if the gang ever gets around to the Tower of Ghenjei before RJ goes over his 12th book limit <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Gaeran Amaconde<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />Grand Historian at the Court of the Sun<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />One of Those Chosen to Bring the Light<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" />Master of Graendal's Revels<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" />&quot;If sometimes our dreams come true, what of our nightmares?&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-20 05:34:37
subject: <b>An old theory</b>
body:
It was already suggested on the Theory Post in r4j's very good theory &quot;Fairy lore, the Tower, and Snakes/Foxes&quot; which I can only recommend for reading.<br /><br />It could be right, although this way seems a bit too easy. <br />Perhaps it's rather likely that you have to go around three times and <i> then </i> also do something special to open an entry.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br />


created: 2004-03-20 10:11:21
subject: <b>Some quotes and thoughts</b>
body:
I must say, I like it. Simple, but clever, and I hadn't read the previous theory that Etzel points out. I've got a book quote to clarify some things, and also a recent RJ quote that adds a bit of interest:<br /><br />TSR Chapter 28: To The Tower of Ghenjei<br /><br />&quot;Perrin walked around it twice without seeing any opening, not so much as a crack, not even a mark on that smooth, sheer wall. The smell hung here, though, that cold, inhuman stink. The trail ended here. The man-if man he was-had gone inside somehow. He only had to find the way to follow.<br />Stop! It was a raw flow of emotion that Perrin&#8217;s mind put a word to. Stop!<br />He turned as a great gray wolf...&quot; etc. (wolf is Hopper)<br /><br />And now, the most recent Q&amp;A from the Tor website (http://www.tor.com/jordan/questions.html)<br /><br />Question: You stated in another interview that Mat's memories came from adventurers who traveled through the ter'angreal. However several of Mat's memories end with the adventurer dying. Since adventurers probably didn't go through the ter'angreal after they died, how could the 'finns have obtained these memories?<br /><br />RJ's Answer: A good question. I was wondering when someone would ask that. I expected it as soon as Mat started revealing those old memories. At least a partial answer will be coming up in the next main sequence book, so I guess you could say this is a RAFO. But I will say that if I said those adventurers all entered through the two ter'angreal, I misspoke. A good many entered through the Tower of Ghenjei, which was more widely known in earlier years, if never exactly a household name.<br /><br />Interesting, isn't it. Looks to me as if our wishes are finally going to be answered, and the TOG will be visited in the next book. And if the entrance method used to be common knowledge, it figures that it would be something simple like a triple circle.<br /><br />Finally, just btw, I think the word is &quot;widdershins&quot;, not 'windershins' (sorry to be pedantic). Nice theory.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> &lt;-- My balefire heronsword. Don't touch.</font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-20 12:49:29
subject: <b>Okay</b>
body:
Sounds plausible to me. My only question being, why is this listed under Ogier and Tuatha'an theories? Just wondering, that's all.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Talyn Sedai<br />Accepted Terrian Dy'ner, Novice Calia Selle, and Novice Jocelyn Selle at www.wheeloftimerp.com<br /><br />Sa souvraya niende misain ye.</font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-20 20:04:11
subject: <b>wowwww</b>
body:
Short and to the point. You might've added a quote to reinforce your argument, but I see others have already done that for you.<br /><br />Thumbs up.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/clap.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lan.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/clap.gif" border="0" /><br />Nynaeve and Lan!<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-21 14:59:49
subject: <b>i too agree</b>
body:
The thought came to me a few months ago as I was reading &quot;Faerie Tale&quot; by Raymond E Feist.<br /><br />Oh, and yes, term is &quot;widdershins&quot; (counter-clockwise) which is opposed by &quot;sunwise&quot; (clockwise).<br /><br />In real world mythology and occult practices widdershins is typically used to UNDO something, while sunwise is the opposite. Apparently, walking around a faerie hill widdershins would undo the barrier between the worlds.<br /><br />Hmmm... I wonder if this has anything to do with why most potheads I know always pass the doobie or bowl to the left?? LOL<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">--imlad</font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-21 15:47:17
subject: <b>well, yes</b>
body:
isn't this an old theory?<br />are the theory admins slacking?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> <font color="a52a2a">Magnus Alexander corpore parvus erat </font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <font color="b8860b">Dissenting voice of wotmania</font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <br /><font color="6495ed">Frightfully stubborn pacifist</font> <br /><br /><i><font color="669900"> Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent</font></i></font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-21 16:10:33
subject: <b>Snakes and foxes.</b>
body:
Sorry I don't have my books on but when you start again of snakes and foxes don't you repeat some phrase and circle the board three times?<br /><br />Hey great theory!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-21 17:31:54
subject: <b>to taint</b>
body:
You chant a phrase, yes, but you draw a triangle in the air with a wavy line through it. That's it. No circles.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> Linda Sedai <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Proud member of the Embroiderer's Guild of the White Tower<br /><br /><b><font color="red">FAQ admin</font></b> </font>'cos the FAQ is where it's at.<br /><br /><b>Currently working on:</b> my 70th FAQ<p><a href="http://13depository.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">The thirteenth depository : A Wheel of Time blog</a></p><p></p>


created: 2004-03-23 18:50:18
subject: <b>Bah</b>
body:
I had this all written out in a much better theory months before CoT was published, but it was rejected.  I included all the ideas that Celtic mythology includes.  Basically, the idea is that you can enter the world of the faerie by doing some simple manipulations, such as walking around in a circle three times, or reciting certain words or a song.  Also, there is always a guardian of the gate - it could be a flock of birds, or a large hound dog, or whatever.<br /><br />Generally, there were a lot of places that the Celtics believed that this could happen at.  They are:<br /><br />Crossroads<br />Shorelines<br />Graveyards<br />Hilltops<br /><br />Essentially any place that is not entirely one thing or  the other, but both at the same time.  This is why twilight was such a big deal - it was the time between times.<br /><br />So, bah!  Bah to the admins for passing this theory through! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>Don't you know I've always loved you,<br />Even before there was time?<br />Though you turn away I tell you still-<br />Don't you know I've always loved you?<br />And I always will.</i></font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-24 12:46:36
subject: <b>I think your close...</b>
body:
But RJ wouldn't use that completely, he would add something and make it much more complex. Close but no cigar.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br />Red Sox Fan &amp; Yankee Hater<br />kim: it's too cold there to smell<br /><b>Warder to the wonderful, amusing and ever so smart Elayne_Sedai</b><br />Friends don't let friends read Goodkind<br />My mind isn't always in the gutter, it just has VIP access</font><p><a href="http://tinyurl.com/45t6t" target="_blank">Simply Splendid </a></p><p></p>


created: 2004-03-26 17:32:10
subject: <b>Nice</b>
body:
I agree.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">*~Brandi Sedai~*<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> Brandi Taborwin, Aes Sedai of the Brown Ajah, from Cairhien <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rand.gif" border="0" /> Sworn to the Dragon <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rand.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />&quot;A Cairhienin AND an Aes Sedai? There could be no worse combination.&quot; - Lan <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lan.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-31 09:40:44
subject: <b>Yes</b>
body:
This seems right to me but din't perrin chase Slayer there and Slayer just disappeared infront of TOG. I dont recalled Perrin waiting for Slayer to run around the tower three times.


created: 2004-03-31 13:47:47
subject: <b>MeltedAd</b>
body:
Perrin saw Slayer disappear around the Tower, so Perrin went around looking for him. Perrin actually circled 2+ times looking before Hopper stopped him.<br /><br />Slayer obviously exited TaR, rather than enter the Tower.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2004-04-07 21:20:56
subject: <b>Short and to the point. I like it.</b>
body:
Short and to the point. I like it.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">...I'm sleepy...<br />I tend to come up with a lot of looney theories. <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-04-14 05:50:02
subject: <b>Lovely</b>
body:
Short and cutting. Best post for number of words so far<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Well, until mine come out of course<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" />


created: 2005-01-18 19:22:15
subject: <b>Yikes...</b>
body:
Hate to circle that thing just looking at it and then all of a sudden get sucked in....<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Disney Monkey extraordinaire!</font><p></p>


created: 2005-04-17 01:11:55
subject: <b>Snakes and Foxes</b>
body:
The opening ritual to the game snakes and foxes, the connection of the chant is quite obvious but the symbol, a triangle with a wavy line through it, what is the connection? Well sitting here reading comments when I saw linda_sedai mention it, and it hit me. Can you say portal stones?<br />


created: 2006-06-06 19:34:17
subject: <b>Portal Stones</b>
body:
JetJon may have had it right. Or at least, portal stones may be one way in. The symbol on the stone for the normal world was a triangle inside of a circle. Seems very reasonable to say that getting into the TOG would be accessible through a portal stone using the symbol of a triangle with a wavy line through it.<br /><br />For some reason, it seems very likely to me that that symbol is associated with T'A'R. *shrugs*<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perplexed.gif" border="0" /> The Not-So-Wise-One? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smackhead.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Linayus <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />&quot;Kneel and swear to the Lord Dragon,&quot; he said softly, &quot;or you will be knelt.&quot; (Was that not the BEST ever? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/w00t.gif" border="0" /> )</font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-25 00:07:27
subject: <b>Maybe, but unlikely</b>
body:
<br />According to the tidbits about its history found in TGH the nation of Almoth, now gone, was supposed to have possessed a branch of Avendesora sometimes in the past. Their banner was blue for the sky above, black for the earth below, with the spreading Tree of Life to join them. <br /><br />I believe the dark prophecy rather clearly referred to the arrival of the Seanchan on Almoth Plain - at Falme.  What happened there, coupled with Graendal's efforts set in Flame the ancient nation of Almoth, the nation of the ancient tree.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="images/personalsmilies/30778.gif" />Wheel of Time Reference Library : Articles, maps, charts and misc.<img src="images/personalsmilies/30778.gif" /><br /><br /></font><p><a href="http://13depository.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">The Thirteenth Depository - a Wheel of Time Blog</a></p><p></p>


created: 2004-03-25 00:42:51
subject: <b>I agree w/ DomA</b>
body:
DomA - Nice rebuttal!  That's exactly what I got from the passage.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;The reason I won't tell people though is that I am enjoying watching them squirm entirely too much.&quot; - Robert Jordan</font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-25 01:26:31
subject: <b>indeed</b>
body:
i could go either way on this, RJ could have done it specifically to go either way, or even both.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Seeking Aes Sedai for Bondage... uhh bonding. <br /><br />We rode on the winds of the rising storm,<br />We ran to the sounds of the thunder,<br />We danced among the lightning bolts,<br />and tore the world asunder.</font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-25 02:24:02
subject: <b>Ummmm..... remember Carhien?!?</b>
body:
Umm... y'know how many nobles claim being descended from Artur, myself, I believe it was Laman who did that one.<br /><br />AvadaKedavra <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Toad D-Manz <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/crazy.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-25 02:54:16
subject: <b>I'll have to agree with DomA</b>
body:
And that could be considered unusual, I guess. But, it fits the best with the Dark Prophecy. Whether or not it is actual prophecy is debatable, since some of it talks about past events, and some in the present tense, as well.<br /><br />Anyway, the only known Chora tree is in Rhuidean, and the Seanchan would have to go a long way to get there in a hostile environment. And what would be the motivation for them to go there anyway? A long shot for that to happen, IMO.<br /><br />Since Rand has already scorched Avendesora, you might have instead suggested that he was descended from Hawkwing through Tigraine.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-25 06:43:46
subject: <b>Like the others</b>
body:
I also believe in Verin's interpretation of this line in TGH, ch.7, which DomA pointed out.<br /><br />Especially if you look at the line before: &quot;The Watchers wait on Toman's Head&quot;, it's clear that also the second line (&quot;The seed of the Hammer burns the ancient tree&quot; ) refers to the Seanchan conquest. <br /><br />This conquest is in principle the result of a Shadow's plot since Ishy was responsible for Hawkwing's sending of his sons with armies to Seanchan. <br />Therefore it makes sense to mention it in a Dark Prophecy.


created: 2004-03-25 06:59:34
subject: <b>Another point...</b>
body:
Rand's last name, al'Thor, means &quot;son of Thor,&quot; who was obviously the Norse god of mythology with a big hammer. So &quot;seed of the Hammer&quot; could be referring to Rand in that way.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Who can deny a Fremen the right to walk or ride where he wills?<br />      -Dune<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-25 12:43:19
subject: <b>How to Post Better Theories</b>
body:
In general it is a good idea, if you come up with a theory, to explain the significance. If you ever submit another theory I would suggest doing this, your readers will like it a lot better. The problem with this theory is you never theorize why the Seanchan would want to burn the tree, or even why they would be in the waste in the first place. Coming up with plasible explainations for these things would be greatly beneficial if you want a successful theory.


created: 2004-03-25 14:24:33
subject: <b>RE: How to Post Better Theories</b>
body:
Sir_Lancelittle,<br /><br />&gt;In general it is a good idea, if you come up with a theory, to explain the significance. If you ever submit another theory I would suggest doing this, your readers will like it a lot better. <br /><br />This is my first theory posted and I have a few more already submitted.  I agree with your suggestion and will do so in the future.<br /><br />What I was trying to do in this theory was to introduce an alternate interpretation of an already &quot;put to bed&quot; prophecy.


created: 2004-03-25 15:17:31
subject: <b>Um, no..</b>
body:
The ancient tree is Tarabon, they had Avendesora on their flag, called themselves the tree of man, all that. It's already happened.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">DO NOT TRIFLE WITH DRAGONS, FOR YOU ARE CRUNCHY, AND TASTE GOOD WITH CATSUP......</font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-25 18:02:33
subject: <b>Alternate explanation?</b>
body:
If you are trying to explain an alternate explanation, here's one:  Seed of the Hammer refers to Perrin.  Son(seed) of a blacksmith (hammer), now an axe-wielding wolfman.  He also had to choose between the hammer and the axe.  You should now see where I am going with the tree part.  The Shaido kidnapped Faile.  Let's say Faile does not survive and the Shaido retreat to near Rhuidin.  Now, the Seed of the Hammer has perfect weapon (axe) to damage the tree (in Rhuidin).  Perrin goes berserk over Faile's kidnapping (or slaughter) and damages the tree or the people (Shaido) that represent the tree.


created: 2004-03-25 18:45:31
subject: <b>perrin's not the son of a blacksmith</b>
body:
he's an apprentice to master luhan, i think thats his name. but i'm pretty sure his dad was just a farmer. but it was a good idea. <br /><br />oh and i like this theory, even though it doesnt seem like it will happen, it would be cool.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">It is said the Devil has the best tunes.<br />This is broadly true. But Heaven has the best choreographers.</font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-25 21:45:13
subject: <b>In addition to what Sir_Lancelittle said.....</b>
body:
Rand burnt the Tree in Rhuidean already during his fight with Asmodean. It's supposedly healing though.<br /><br />But I'd have to say the Falme would be the &quot;Tree&quot;.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Fortune rides like the sun on high<br />with the fox that makes the ravens fly.<br />Luck his soul, the lightning his eye,<br />He snatches the moons from out the sky.&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-25 23:09:23
subject: <b>Hey, I like the theory!</b>
body:
Although I do doubt it will happen. <br /><br />I'd like to see the Aeil's reation if it does tho!<br /><br />And I personally I have no problem with the style this theory was written in. Short and sweet.<br /><br />Thankyou.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-26 00:40:00
subject: <b>Pesonally</b>
body:
I discredit the idea of Seanchan and or shaido buring what left of the CHora tree in Rhuidean because If artur hawking in his prime could get armies to defeat the Aiel than some chica floating troops over the ocean doesnt standa  chance. I think the heat and the aiel that they cant see would kill them before they dreamt of seeing rhuidean and the shaido are gunna be dead soon so they cant. also there are aiel at rhuidean and inbetween the wal that will kill shaido for there crimes. Just my opinion though.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Roses are red <br />Violets are blue <br />I'm schizophrenic <br />And so am I <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/crazy.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smackhead.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-28 14:16:23
subject: <b>Tree Burning</b>
body:
The Seanchan has conquered Tarabon, so it has already burned the Ancient Tree, which is the symbol of the lands west of the Mountains of Mist. The Seanchan are settling Almoth Plain and beginning to penetrate Arad Doman. We shall see whether they conquer Arad Doman or be repulsed by Lord Rodel Ituralde. Even if they're repulsed, the Domani would still be burned by the traumatic experience of a serious major war.<br /><br />Artur Hawkwing was called the Hammer of the Light. His son Luthair Paendrag Mondwin was called the Hammer by the Seanchan. The Seanchan rulers, as descendants of Luthair and Artur, are seeds of the Hammer.<br /><br />So, the prophecy of the seed of the Hammer burning the Ancient Tree has come true.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Gaeran Amaconde<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />Grand Historian at the Court of the Sun<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />One of Those Chosen to Bring the Light<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" />Master of Graendal's Revels<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" />&quot;If sometimes our dreams come true, what of our nightmares?&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-28 16:40:15
subject: <b>The tree has already been burnt</b>
body:
See: Rand scorching Avendesora<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">---<br /><br />There once was a rogue Aes Sedai. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br />Who decided to become a Jedi. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-green.gif" border="0" /><br />But then she met Gandalf, <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gandalf.gif" border="0" /><br />Who chopped all her hands off, <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /><br />Just before he poked her in the eye. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-04-03 07:43:47
subject: <b>What about Tuon?</b>
body:
Just a thought, but couldn't she be one of &quot;the seeds of the hammer&quot;...? After all, it seems plausible that Tuon can learn to channel after what we hear of her training


created: 2004-04-21 06:15:35
subject: <b>gaeran got it</b>
body:
Was about to memtion tarabon's....sigil...or sigh, being a tree. The prophercy was given earlier in the books and fullfilled with the other propercies in the verse before and after. I don't have the book handy so i'll check later.<br /><br />It is the seanchan conquering tarabon.


created: 2004-06-05 08:53:15
subject: <b>the Tree</b>
body:
if i remember correctly one of the nations under seanchan control (possibly Tarabon or Altara) has as its flag the Avendesora. i had always asumed that the reference from the Dark Prophecy refered to the Seanchan taking nations of the west<br /><br />nakai


created: 2004-07-12 13:52:39
subject: <b>Avendesora</b>
body:
That prophecy does refer to the Seanchan taking over the (south)western part of the Westlands.  The Domani believe that they are descended from the makers of Avendesora (I think it says this in the BWB) and Tarabon has a tree on its flag.  There's also Verin's comments on the nation of Almoth and its flag.  (see above)  I don't think the Seanchan will ever get far enough east past the Aiel to attack Rhuidean.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Serenallein <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />As the eunuch said to the abbess, I'd oblige if I could, but I can't.</font><p></p>


created: 2004-04-03 00:09:14
subject: <b>Too much to do!</b>
body:
First of all Elayne is too easy rebuilding Andor to go fighting a Gholam.Also because of the Bargain,the Wise Ones and everyone fussing over her baby,she doesn't have time to build a ter'angreal,much less trap a Gholam in it.<br /><br />Also now that Mat is away he won't meet up with Elayne in a very long while.


created: 2004-04-03 01:28:52
subject: <b>Free Gholam on the loose</b>
body:
Just sharing an interesting thought that I've had about the gholam. My understanding of the story line is that Sammael found a stasis box and in the box was the gholam which he sent to take care of Mat, Elayne and Nynaeve. In a POV of the gholams we learn that he has never been free of a master but understands the concept and that it is his fondest wish. So since Sam died has the gholam been running around free to do whatever he likes? Does he have a different master (was I wrong about Sam - or has someone else snatched him up?)?Does he still have to odey the his last commands (if what i'm suggesting is right then he does seem to be obeying Sam's last commands)?<br /><br />If he is free he'll probably focus on Mat still but could he pick of a forsaken or two along the way?


created: 2004-04-03 01:55:24
subject: <b>Nah</b>
body:
At the moment the gholam is hunting Mat and I'm pretty sure that he will catch up with him soon, leading to the final battle between them. <br /><br />The gholam is Mat's nemesis, therefore Mat will kill him.<br />It shall be obvious that they will clash again, like it is obvious that e.g. Rand &amp; Fain or Perrin &amp; the Whitecloaks will clash again. <br /><br />For your theory to work Mat had to go to Elayne, though Tuon is in charge at the moment. <br /><br />Elayne had to create a stasis box, though she has more important things to do currently. <br /><br />The gholam had to follow Mat to Andor and then go into this stasis box for some reason. <br />I can't imagine why he should do that. <br />The gholam isn't stupid and Elayne can't simply &quot;put the gholam in it&quot; as you say.<br /><br />While it's likely that the Keeping weave could play an important role in the future, I think it will rather be used in a faking of Rand's death as Light in the Night suggested on the WotMB.   <br />


created: 2004-04-03 02:16:22
subject: <b>Well...</b>
body:
I liked most of the theory, but i also agree with the others so far (^above^) but my biggest problem is that if it stayed alive for 3000 years with out feeding then my assumption is that it can't be killed by starving, only be weakened...so the only way to kill it i see has to do with the only thing that we know hurts it a.k.a. the medallion...but i could be totally off with this...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Sir, are you classified as human?&quot;<br />&quot;Negative, I am a meat popsickle&quot;<br /><br />~Anyone who knows what this is from gets 5 wSE points, maybe.</font><p></p>


created: 2004-04-03 02:25:33
subject: <b>hmm..</b>
body:
i never thought of that..<br />but now that you state it so clear it seems like it might happen.. <br /><br />good theory <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> Wielder of the HOlY Kizer <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lan.gif" border="0" /> Warder of Andor <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lan.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/crazy.gif" border="0" /> The sleepiest dude in the world <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/crazy.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-04-03 03:26:00
subject: <b>Of course it could starve</b>
body:
but not in a stasis box. Time doesn't pass in a stasis box. This why the gholam survived this long. I belive RJ has even said the gholam could die of old age. Getting it to starve would be almost impossible unless you can trap it somewhere (an empty portal world, the skimming place, the center of a black hole, etc.). Once you had it in a stasis box, which would be extremly difficult unless it wanted to go, I suppose you could get it to one of these places.<br /><br /><br />I would guess, however, that it is more likely that someone willfind a way to control the gholam. If the foresaken can do, why can't everyone else???


created: 2004-04-03 12:01:20
subject: <b>Interesting</b>
body:
Elayne is one possible candidate for resolving the <i>gholam</i> dillemma, and there has been plenty of foreshadowing about her repaying Mat.  I don't really buy the idea that Elayne will create stasis boxes.  She's pretty busy trying to secure a throne at the moment, has never seen a stasis box, and has no pressing reason to try making one.  I might be more logical for Elayne to learn something about the foxhead amulet, and use that against the Shadowspawn.  Personally, I think the <i>gholam</i> is operating idependently at the moment, and probably hunting Mat.  Of course, there is also the issue that Mat is nowhere near Caemlyn, and Elayne isn't likely to run off on any new adventures right away.<br /><br />I guess I like the general idea that Elayne will save Mat from the <i>gholam</i>, but not any of the other specifics you rolled into this theory.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Diomedes <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-04-03 16:05:36
subject: <b>Horn Havoc</b>
body:
Ok, good theory and frankly I like the idea but there is one other possible way Mat is going to kick the gholam's arse, THE HORN OF VALERA, did anyone else not notice that apparently the hundred champions cannot be channeled against, did anyone think that maybe they all have ter'angreal like Mat's. Although their is also argument for Elayne to help even if this does not work, remeber Birgitte's Arrow, Elayne still has it as far as we know. The old, last minute save shot to the bad guy's head and we are even set up usually works, does it not?


created: 2004-04-03 22:31:56
subject: <b>Interesting, but...</b>
body:
As stated, things don't add up. Not to mention Elayne can barely hold onto a weave let alone attempt to make a stasis box virtually from scratch!<br /><br />More likely, she'll use her political influences to save his and the Band's bacon once they get reunited. Mat is always desperately thinking about how to get out of the battles he can't seem to avoid.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;The rich get richer till the poor get educated.&quot;<br />-Sage Francis</font><p></p>


created: 2004-04-04 01:02:07
subject: <b>Stasis Box</b>
body:
A stasis box cannot be a ter'angreal, but instead a lost technology. Your own evidence proves this. If it was a ter'angreal then the gholam would be immune to it. So therefore it must be a technology.


created: 2004-04-04 03:15:15
subject: <b>Good points, but...</b>
body:
So, this is only my second theory posted (and I posted this one WEEKS ago) and looking it over, there are some things I would have changed.  But a few notes to respond to:<br /><br />1) Yes, I know Elayne is busy.  So what?  When has that stopped a character from doing anything?  I'm assuming that RJ isn't going to be keeping the snail's pace he's been going at.  If we skip forward a few months (as might happen since things still need to unfold with time before TG), she will have had her babies.  And while she is pregnant, she can still channel.  Not very well at all, but wouldn't it be even more dramatic if she could defeat the gholam in a &quot;weakened&quot; condition?<br /><br />2) Just because Mat isn't in Andor this minute, doesn't mean he might not be soon.  I don't think the story will continue to be so linear.  I will say that my theory is weakened by the thought of Mat getting into the Tower of Ghenjei in the next book.<br /><br />3) I didn't mean to imply that the gholam would be starved in the stasis box (duh).  If a bubble of air was created and the gholam kept in it, unable to get out, would this not make a workable prison in which it could starve?  Or the bubble that Rand created when he was attacked by Asha'man which keeps everything out, including air to breathe.<br /><br />4) I don't think any of the ta'veren will defeat their respective nemeses on their own, all of them will need help.  Because they are ta'veren, they pull the people they need to help them in.  I can see Rand going up against Fain, but that didn't work out so well the last time that happened.  Will Perrin defeat all the Whitecloaks?  Or the Shaido?  Probably not.<br /><br />5) I don't think the stasis box is a lost technology.  Just because the channeling used on the gholam hasn't worked, doesn't mean a stasis box isn't made with the power.  Mat's foxhead had to have been made with the power...it affects the gholam.  <br /><br />One other thing that I hadn't really thought of until recently is that since this gholam is one of six made, where are the other five?  Were they all stashed in stasis boxes?  In all likelihood, some of them were defeated.  I don't believe LTT will give the answer on how to beat it, but...anything is possible.<br /><br />I think there are a lot of paralells with the foxhead and the gholam.  While Mat can't be channeled <i>at</i>, he can be hit with things like lightning and cow manure thrown with the power.  Same with the gholam.  If the air was hardened and it kept closing in, Mat would die if he ran out of air.  The gholam might, too...<br /><br />I will give a slight recant in that I don't see Elayne creating a stasis box from scratch.  Perhaps if one is found in the wreckage of the stuff found in Ebou Dar.  That stuff is just loaded with possibilities.  But how could she know?  There, I will admit, my theory is weak.  But in terms of where the story is going, I think this is the big one that Elayne can pay Mat back with.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Asha'man Josh <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Let the arm of the Lord of the Dawn shelter us from the Dark,<br />and the great sword of justice defend us.<br />Let the Dragon ride again on the winds of time.<br />- from <i>Charal Drianaan te Calamon, The Cycle of the Dragon</i></font><p></p>


created: 2004-04-04 20:37:32
subject: <b>I dont think so</b>
body:
I can see where your comming from about Elayne saving Mat somehow, but I dont think she will be making any stasis boxes.  The only way I can think of to kill a gholum would be to A) starve it B)evidently they can die of old age according to someone C)lure it into a stedding or D)the True Power (Its been a while since I read them, I mean the DO power). I think C is the most likely as the good guys cant use the True Power and the others seem that they will take a long time.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">pi=3.14159265358979323846264338<br />e=2.718281828459</font><p></p>


created: 2004-04-05 01:43:07
subject: <b>A few thoughts</b>
body:
What exactly IS a stasis box? I think it is the gold chest that the Horn was found in, so there are a few of them floating around, Moiraine knew about them.<br /><br />How do the Forsaken control golem? Golem are terangreal, I believe it was said somewhere. I suspect that they have an access key terangreal to command them. Which begs the question where did Sammael get one to control his golem? On the other hand, one of the female Forsaken was almost killed by a golem. Golem were created by a man, so perhaps only a male channeler can control them, and only then if he knows the trick.<br /><br />Elaine has toh to Mat. But her main concern seems to be making Avienda respect her, not fulfilling her toh to Mat himself (re-read the scene where she confronts Mat, and the other scenes related to her toh, it is all about Avienda, not Mat). Somewhere alnog the line that is going to seriously trip her up in her relationship to Avienda and the Aiel Wise Ones.


created: 2004-04-05 16:24:09
subject: <b>Why this miraculous belief in Elayne</b>
body:
People complained about the wells RJ brought out in WH. Now you have a novice who has shown some potential in making ter'angreal, expected to make Stasis boxes and repairing the an access key. <br /><br />The access key's took some of the best Aes sedai in the AOL to make. Elayne has trouble reproducing her initial dream ter'angreal and we are expecting her to make something as advanced as a stasis box. <br /><br />If RJ does this and makes it believable, well done to him. But I doubt he can, and a plot resolution like this would stink.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">We rode on the winds of the rising storm,<br />We ran to the sounds of the thunder,<br />We danced among the lightning bolts,<br />and tore the world asunder.</font><p></p>


created: 2004-04-05 16:24:58
subject: <b>Far Madding</b>
body:
Would dumping the gholam in Far Madding kill it?<br />Assuming that their anti-power thingy is similar to Mat's medallion.


created: 2004-04-05 18:33:49
subject: <b>You just might be onto something...</b>
body:
....I think that it's much more likely that Elayne will get her hands on Mat's fancy necklace and duplicate it, and maybe even at his request.  She's been curious about Mat's little secret.  <br /><br />Elayne will help Mat kill the Gholam by making him a weapon that acts as the medallion does.  <br /><br />Columbo is on the case!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2004-04-06 22:28:12
subject: <b>Why the urge to kill the poor thing?</b>
body:
I don't understand you ppl, why everything we don't understand should be killed? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/oh.gif" border="0" />


created: 2004-04-07 12:41:43
subject: <b>no box needed</b>
body:
Elayne does not need to make a stasis box.  She preserved the flower with a weave.  She can capture it within the stasis weave and hold it until alternate means of disposal can be arrainged.  I would presume the weave could be tied off and hold for a while.  The stasis box is a long term solution where maintenance of a weave is not possible.


created: 2004-04-08 14:57:49
subject: <b>Weaves don't work on a gholam</b>
body:
So she couldn't weave a stasis weave on him. Woouldn't work. But we do know that a stasis box would hold him.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Pronounced: &quot;Rand was here&quot;<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shakefist.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-04-10 20:21:21
subject: <b>take Mat and Elayne on a magic carpet ride...</b>
body:
lol no but really listen.<br /><br />Mat and Elayne go skimming la la la and the Gholam stows along, ducks in right before the portal closes or what not. Then we have the big fight ooooohhhhh and gholam goes bye bye off the side.<br /><br />*waves at the gholam sweetly*<br /><br />


created: 2004-04-13 14:52:00
subject: <b>hmm</b>
body:
in general, good idea. several of them, but in the wrong combination.<br /><br />if elayne helps to kill the gholam though, i'm going to have to say that Columbo is on the money saying that she will create a ter'angreal weapon that has similar properties to his medallion and use that to kill it.  <br /><br />cheers!


created: 2004-04-14 12:45:12
subject: <b>Sufficient bait</b>
body:
I'm not saying i agree with this theory, but IF elayne was going to put the gholam into a stasis box, all she would neeed to do is bait the box with something the gholam would find enticing. Human blood? nah, gotta be better than that. Matt's blood? nope gotta be fresh. black ajah? no way, too salty. hmm... whats left? that's right, a well placed box of girl scout cookies will surely lure the gholam into the stasis box. piece of cake...er...cookie.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">That's right! An Aielman with a sword!<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bela.gif" border="0" /> + <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /> = <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br />I fear Perrin has fallen to the dark side <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-red.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-04-25 17:44:14
subject: <b>but</b>
body:
there are lots of other ways elayne can pay mat back <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />


created: 2004-05-02 00:18:20
subject: <b>Birgitte's arrow</b>
body:
Didn't Elayne turn Birgitte's arrow into the a'dam she made?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /> Survivor of Historical Inquizition ... barely <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Who can say if I've been changed for the better, but because I knew you I have been changed for good -- Wicked<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-09-26 12:14:27
subject: <b>I don't think so.</b>
body:
Why would she use the silver arrow? :/ silver coins work too.... <br /><br />And......... Assuming the Gholam are made from the one power, I think of 3 ways to kill it. (i made a theory, but it didn't get posted)well.. <br />1#: starving it: Either have ewgene make a big mechanical cage, made out of culludier, and rig it up over the doorway to mat's room, and spread a rumor that mat is living there.^_^ <br />2#:starving it again: create a horizontal gateway a milimeter under the earth, so the gholam won't be touching it while it forms, but the earth will break under the gholam's weight, and he'll fall through.(into a active volcano, the bottom of the ocean(he starves before he gets back to dry land ^_^, the inside of the trap mentioned in #1, a vacole, etc., the opposite side of the planet(sure, it doesn't get rid of him, but by the time he gets back, the last battle will have happened ^_^), 999999999999999 feet up in the air above something really deadly;p, above Far Madding/stedding (I assume that it has a dome, so it's possible to do something above it.) the inside of a skimming place, but without any platform ^_^ )ETC. Be creative<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />or, of course, we could just make a vertical one, and push him through. (think mat's medallion. [Your fist can't touch him, so you wear a glove!:p])we get the idea. <br /><br />#3<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/frown.gif" border="0" />though it might not work, I assume it would.most things melt.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" />) Make a big flame. really hot. use a Chodin Kal fuel source, if you want. just make it HOT<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />. He dies/melts. the end.<br />^_^ Or you could rip up the earth all around him, like a donut-shaped-thing, and watch him starve to death on his little island. ^_^ Or you could try putting culindear tiles on your floor :0 though it might not work:p (even if he ISN'T wearing shoes:p)(although, he CAN'T be, if he slips in under the door, since the shoes can't change their form. only he can ^_^.


created: 2004-11-21 12:07:44
subject: <b>a fair trade</b>
body:
elayne apeared to be desparate to study mats ter'angreal before they parted. presumably she will soon have the same obsession the next time they meet. prehaps mat will lend it to her on the prosviso that she makes a really big/ powerfull/wepon-shaped one for him to defeat the gholam with?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> let the speedbart ride again upon the winds of time <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Made the second post on the new WoTMB2 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-07 04:46:10
subject: <b>controlling it</b>
body:
It's stated in one of the books that the only reason that a mydraal (or trolloc) takes a command from the forsaken in because they have a mark on them only visible to shadow-spawn...maybe thats why the grohlem (can spell <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> )doesnt attack them, why doesnt one of the aes'sedai just make a ter'angreal like mats exept make it huge and the shape of a box?...it doesnt have to be elayne she said in one of the books that some of the sisters she was teaching to make them had more potential than her....


created: 2005-05-22 23:17:12
subject: <b>Uh.</b>
body:
Since the gholam is Mat's nemesis, he has to kill him. Especially since it's his ONLY real nemesis.<br /><br />The gholam is HUNTING down Mat. Elayne is PREGNANT. So for 9 months she cannot use the Power - certainly not enough to build a stasis box! There is no way that the gholam will miss Mat for 9 months.<br /><br />Preserving something isn't the same as building a stasis box. Especially one strong enough to hold a gholam. <br /><br />They need to meet for this to happen. Now that means that somehow, Mat is going to keep sliding past the gholam until he reaches Elayne, or Elayne will - for only a debt - leave her nation in civil strife and jeapordize the small claim to the throne she has (or heck, leave her babies' side) to go to him. At this point, she doesn't even know he's alive or if he's captured by the Seanchan, and she STILL hasn't gone to see if he's alright. Not even a spy, who most certainly would have had something to say about Tylin's Pet. What makes you think she'll go to him for her debt, when he's proven he can avoid the gholam and defend himself from it just fine?<br /><br />Much of what was in the Age of Legends is coming back. Gateways. Balefire. Cuendillar. Ter'angreal. Dreaming. Maybe the ter'angreal is something long lost - although, personally, I think the foxes created it themselves, and it can't be duplicated. And I do think they can create things - not everything can be &quot;found lying around&quot; and given away. What if you wanted a statue of yourself? Where would they find that? And if they did have a choice, rather than being...compelled...to grant your wish, then they wouldn't have given Mat anything. So clearly, the fact that they gave him what he wanted, though he cheated them, proves that they have no choice but to grant your wishes. They just skin you after they do it.<br /><br />Everbody's been obsessed with Mat's medallion. And yet somehow, Mat has managed to keep everybody from pawing it. Moiraine wanted to steal the thing, until Rand forbade her to do any such thing, and to leave Mat alone. Elayne had demanded it as her right, and when Mat had refused her, she had tried to bully him into letting her use it for study. She gave all that up when she began to see that Mat wasn't as bad as she thought he was. Vandene and Adeleas had tested the thing when he was wearing it, but had backed off at Elayne's orders. Nynaeve had been willing to beat him for it, but had let it go.<br /><br />And the thing is, all of those matters were settled FOR GOOD. Elayne NEVER asked for it again. Nynaeve NEVER tried to take it, and Moiraine had NEVER again inquired about it. They were settled with the same conclusion - it's his, and that's final. That obsession isn't likely to resurge. Elayne had the thing in her hand and could have taken it for at least a day just to study and she still wouldn't take it away from Mat.<br /><br />Even if time does pass by, and Elayne gives birth, that just makes it worse. She would never leave her babies even for a moment, nor would she risk her own life for a debt when her babies need her. She was the one that was vulnerable to the gholam. Mat wasn't. She won't risk it for something she isn't even sure would work, and has never tried. (And again, if she check to see if they were even alive, she won't go to save him from a gholam.)<br /><br />Let's face it. She'll only save Mat if she doesn't have to go out of her way to do it.


created: 2005-07-10 02:12:13
subject: <b>Let's not make things more complicated than necessary; that's Jordans job.</b>
body:
I'm with Columbo on this one, and, in fact, have been for years.  It's not impossible to channel for the entire length of pregnancy, but increasingly difficult (it IS impossible during or possibly near labor; it's been a while since I read that part and I'm doing the Silmarillion/Lost Tales again now, so ;-p.)  It's really a POV question again; Mat doesn't know Elaynes hobby is making ter'angreals, but he DOES know his medallion is the only thing between him and a slow painful death by the hands of the gholam (since nothing else so much as slows it down.)  I wager he WILL find out, one way or another (probably when someone makes an offhand, likely facetious, comment that shifts his whole paradigm in typical Jordan fashion) and then he'll be falling over himself once his sense of self preservation overwhelms his pride (e.g. he makes it clear in no uncertain and none to polite terms he won't LET Elayne examine the medallion, and now he'll BEG her to do exactly that.)<br /><br />Another possiblity exists, one perhaps too simple for WoT: there were six gholam, but three of each gender.  We've never seen the gholam encounter saidin, and it's at least possible that he's immune to saidar but a whole host of saidin gimmicks will work on him just fine.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Warder to the unrivalled Rival.  Let the competition (such as it is) fear my wrath!<br /><br /><i>For full disclosure, subtract ~2000 from my CMB views.</i><br /><br />Love can't be coerced.<br /><br />Seek in Joel what goodness God gave me; seek the ill no more, for it and I are dead.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-08-27 19:03:22
subject: <b>waygate?</b>
body:
wouldn't the easiest way to kill a gholem just be to open a waygate in it? it would slice the mofo into two very nice dead parts...............or would we see a terminator 2 effect?


created: 2005-09-14 14:54:07
subject: <b>I don't think that only one is out there is a least two</b>
body:
Herid Fel was killed by one (or at least someone wanted you to think that.) that did happen in Caemlyn which is where Elayne is now.


created: 2006-04-30 03:32:52
subject: <b>Steding</b>
body:
Why don't they just throw the sucker into a steding and watch him burn?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Proud Libertarian<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> You spin me right round baby right round <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br />The following sentence is true. The preceding sentence is false.<br />Truly great madness cannot be achieved without significant intelligence.<br />-Henrik Tikkanen</font><p></p>


created: 2006-07-10 06:12:25
subject: <b>Unthought possibilities!</b>
body:
Wasn't Herid Fel killed in Cairhien? I thought he was the jolly old scientist-fellow Min was so fond of..<br /><br />KNIFE OF DREAMS_SPOILERS FOLLOWING!!<br />-10<br />-9<br />-8<br />-7<br />-6<br />-5<br />-4<br />-3<br />-2<br />-1<br />Since Mat, Thom and one more will be going back to the foxes &amp; snakes to save Moiraine within the first half of the next book, maybe Mat'll find a sword or something made of the same metall his medallion is(what was the ashanderei made of, btw? Is it ever mentioned?). Also, for all we know, Moiraine is the key to beating the Gholam.<br /><br />Anyway, a lot of people bring up an interesting point when they talk about the gholam possibly being vulnerable to male channeling. Since it they were created in male and female &quot;editions&quot;, it would be.. logical, since saidin and saidar are quite different. Plus, I don't se Aginor(right?) creating them without a fool-proof way of killing them should they ever turn against him..<br /><br />I still think that the gholam will be killed by Mat using &quot;conventional&quot; weapons, though, but probably in an anti-climatic way.. In Winter's Heart, when Mat meats Noal/Jain Charin while the gholam is getting away, Mat says he's seen this before, in Shadar Logoth. Maybe he knows how to kill it, but just doesn't &quot;know&quot; it yet.<br /><br />As to whether or not Elayne will be helpful, she got a whole lot less to worry about after KoD, and I think her babies might be born as early as in the prologue of the next book. Maybe she'll have time for analyzing the foxheadmed., but I doubt she'll be repaying her toh that way. What I do think is that she'll be a big part of Mat's &quot;half-the-light-of-the-world&quot;-destiny..<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/seanchan.gif" border="0" />&quot;Karede frowned. Tylins Toy was the general? Were they playing a game with him?&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/seanchan.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2007-04-22 20:38:15
subject: <b>beautiful</b>
body:
Loved it.  It was so random, yet when you think back on the toh thing it makes sense.  Also I love your use of the word rogering.  Sex, make love, f***, etc. are all getting so old.


created: 2008-01-22 00:54:11
subject: <b>ok</b>
body:
say Elayne does make this Stasis Box. The Gholam isn't just going to walk into it right? It's far to strong and agile for any human to beat it physically and it does appear to be quite intelligent unlike other shadow spawn. So what's the answer there...<br /><br />I say, just find one of it's Gholam-ex-girlfriends and tell her he's not gonna pay child support.


created: 2004-04-05 14:07:28
subject: <b>I don't think that you can disregard Lanfear completely</b>
body:
I assume you use Selene's name instead of Lanfear because of the recent theory that Selene was another forsaken disguised as Lanfear disguised as Selene.<br /><br />Lanfear's comment at the end of tGH that Ishy thinks he controls events but I do should be taken at face value IMHO.  <br /><br />Several factors point toward involvement by Lanfear.  (Though she doesn't have to be there at the time.)  The first is that Fain doesn't kill Mat.  Fain may think that he has no interest in killing Mat or Perrin but his rage toward the Aybarra's belies that thought.  More important is the Dark 'prophecy'.  Why would Fain write a stanza about Lanfear (or Slayer) for that matter?<br /><br />The severed heads are definitly Fain's doing as he does something similar later.  But what about the rest?  How is it that Egwene and Mat were found in the cells.  Mat and Egwene would not have entered the dungeon unless they were complete fools if the guards were not there.  That means that they were either dragged there or else there were guards in place and everything looked normal.<br /><br />One likely explanation is that the two normal guards who have came more and more under the influence of Fain were Fain's rescuers.  They must have killed or knocked out Fain's real guards and freed Fain.  Fain, on feeling Mat coming then would have had his 'guards' hide the real guard's bodies and pretend to be the guards themselves so that Fain could personally take care of them in the cells.<br /><br />This still doesn't explain how Fain knew about the theft of the horn nor why Egwene and Mat have no memories of their visit nor the Dark prophecy nor why Fain wants to go to Toman Head.  Slayer has to fit in here as well.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">RabidWombat<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> Let the Lord of Rambling Thoughts rule <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> Proud owner of a 2 star rating! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /> Someone stole all my cookies <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-04-05 15:43:41
subject: <b>Slayer is the man...</b>
body:
I agree with RabidWombat that Slayer must fit in here somewhere.  The first thing I thought of when re-reading the part about the beheaded guards was Slayer's tendency in TSR to bring in the heads of Shadowspawn to Emond's Field.  Also, Slayer has the ability to &quot;walk through walls&quot; and he clearly commands scores of Trollocs, as seen in TSR.  How would Fain have been able to call them to attack on the night he gets away?  I never saw that question answered.  I think it seems more likely that Slayer was sent to release Fain for another purpose, Fain ran off and didn't do what he was supposed to, and THEN Slayer was sent to kill him for disobedience in TSR.  Remember in Fain's POV at the end of TSR?  He clearly knew about Slayer/Isam and expressed a familiarity with him that would come from a confrontation like this one.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;The reason I won't tell people though is that I am enjoying watching them squirm entirely too much.&quot; - Robert Jordan</font><p></p>


created: 2004-04-05 16:09:32
subject: <b>angry Isam</b>
body:
During the siege of Emond's Field, I remember Fain picturing an angry Isam, and that the thought almost made him laugh or something like that.This gives me the impression that they have met before somewhere.<br /><br />I could be wrong. I haven't read for quite a while.


created: 2004-04-05 16:16:18
subject: <b>-</b>
body:
Maybe vageabcissa said exactly the same thing I said...<br />If that is the case, sorry for posting it again =)<br />


created: 2004-04-05 19:34:39
subject: <b>RabidWombat, vageabcissa, Doktor Kosmos</b>
body:
I call her Selene, because, at this point in the series, that is what I know her as.<br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Fain may think that he has no interest in killing Mat or Perrin but his rage toward the Aybarra's belies that thought.</b></font><br /><br />That's not entirely accurate.  During <i>Assurances</i> in TSR Fain thinks that he should have restrained himself at tha Aybarra farm, but they were mocking him and he became enraged.<br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>The severed heads are definitly Fain's doing as he does something similar later. But what about the rest?</b></font><br /><br />Fain is involved with a variety of killings without using the SL dagger: Several Darkfriends on the way to Cairhien, a Trolloc after Rand escapes Fain's camp w/ Horn and dagger, Huon (Turak's servent in Falme) and the Aybarras.  Some of these are fairly gruesome.  My other explanation is that Changu and Nidao went loony and slaughtered the guards after Fain got the dagger, but that's pretty speculative.<br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Mat and Egwene would not have entered the dungeon unless they were complete fools if the guards were not there.</b></font><br /><br />This is all a question of timing.  I think the most likely scenario is that the new guards were in place when Mat and Egwene went in to see Fain.  After Fain gets the dagger from Mat, Changu and Nidao come down, incapacitate the guards, and free Fain. <br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>How would Fain have been able to call them (Shadowspawn) to attack on the night he gets away?</b></font><br /><br />Fain didn't call them.  They were sent by Ishamael to steal the Horn.  Either Fain is incredibly lucky in timing his escape, or he knows about Ishamael's plan.  IMO, either possibility doesn't change or disqualify the core of this theory.<br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Remember in Fain's POV at the end of TSR? He clearly knew about Slayer/Isam and expressed a familiarity with him that would come from a confrontation like this one.</b></font><br /><br />Fain, under the alias Ordeith, claims significant space in three chapters from TSR:<i>Seeds of Shadow, Assurances, and Goldeneyes</i>.  In <i>Assurances</i> he doesn't think of Isam, Luc, or Slayer, but of a &quot;new one&quot; and associates him with a Gray Man.  At the very end of that chapter, we see that Ordeith has captured a Myrddraal, who agrees to cooperate.  Finally, in <i>Goldeneyes</i>, Ordeith thinks of Isam, but isn't happy that the flow of Shadowspawn into the Two Rivers stopped.  There is nothing here to indicate that Fain knew about Slayer until he was informed about Isam by the Myrddraal.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Diomedes <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-04-05 22:27:18
subject: <b>Good read.</b>
body:
I'd like to comment but I would rather like to save my ideas for a theory I've been meaning to write.<br /><br />You present your theory well.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2004-04-09 14:15:23
subject: <b>Dark Prophecy</b>
body:
I realized that I didn't address RabidWombat's question about the dark prophecy.  There are a couple of reasons to suspect Fain, and couple of reasons to dismiss Ishamael or Lanfear.  Assuming that Ishy is behind the plot to send the girls across the Aryth Ocean to the Seanchan lands, the last thing he would want is Rand and his friends on Toman Head, interfering with the plan.  The prophecy gives enough legitimacy to Fain's other taunts for the whole group to try using the Portal Stones to reach Toman Head.  Failing that, Ishy's plan works, and Egwene, Elayne, Min and Nynaeve are probably on the other side of the world by now.<br /><br />Lanfear is also an unlikely candidate.  After being asleep for three thousand years, the first thing she does is warn her enemies that she's on the loose again?  That just doesn't make any sense to me.<br /><br />Fain, however, knew something about the Eye of the World, although he never reveals exactly what to Moiraine.  This leads to Mo's comment about Fain gaining some information from the DO during his experience at Shayol Ghul.  The information that Fain reveals to Turok is also important.  It's clear he is familiar with Luthair's quest across the Aryth Ocean during the time of Artur Hawkwing, but that happened well after the fall of Aridhol in the Trolloc Wars.  Fain had to gain that info from somewhere, but if it was provided to him by Ishy, Lanfear or Mesaana, they would probably include specific information about the Seanchan.  Fain doesn't even know the name Seanchan when he arrives on Toman Head.  Considering Suroth is a Darkfriend, the Shadow has access to all that information.  I think that Fain learned enough to write the dark prophecy from his experiences at Shayol Ghul.  Like Moiraine says in EotW, a part of the DO was imprinted on Fain, giving him this knowledge.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Diomedes <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-04-12 12:42:13
subject: <b>Disagree.</b>
body:
First, I would like to state that Padan Fain got his knowledge from torturing people during his journey to Toman Head.<br /><br />Second, I am in the camp that Slayer/Isam was the one who helped Fain escape.  Slayer got his instructions from Ishamel, who was the one who sent the trolloc raid.  There is such a thing called coincidence.  But the Horn of Valer and Fains escape are not one.  They needed to get both out of Fal Dara because of the Amyril and other Aes Sedia were there.  Ishy still had the thought of the Dark side blowing the Horn.<br /><br />Third, Fain required Rand to follow him, so he could confront him and kill him &#8220;Personally&#8221;.  That part is very important.  If they went into the Blight, the odds that a 3rd party could have killed Rand are greatly increased.  Plus Verin said the Dark Prophesies also had a tendency of being fulfilled.  This was the wheels way of fulfilling prophecy by setting Rand on the path where he would proclaim himself as the Dragon Reborn, with out really giving him a choice.  I mean the odds of him proclaiming himself increases if he is on the path that has been prophesized. Ishy knows that Rand has to proclaim himself as the Dragon Reborn, that is a must for his plans to come to fruition.  So the reason that Fain took the Horn and Dagger to Toman Head has to be chalked up to &#8220;the weaving of the wheel&#8221;.<br /><br />Fourth, I would have to agree with the people who said that the heads being cut off and presented smacks of Slayer.<br /><br />Conclusion:  Ishy sent the trollocs on the Raid for a diversion for Slayer to assist Fain in escaping.  The Horn and everybody who got out would have headed for the blight.  But Fain was influenced by powers out of his control to go to Toman Head.<br />


created: 2004-04-12 15:39:52
subject: <b>Kosovo</b>
body:
<b>First, I would like to state that Padan Fain got his knowledge from torturing people during his journey to Toman Head</b><br />I don't think that those people knew anything about things that happened over 1000 years ago.<br /><br />For instance chances that PF would have found real reasons why national seal of Finland includes lion or why our national flag has blue cross by torturing peasants in Kosovo are minimal.(Finland has about 700 soldiers in Kosovo.) Naturally assuming that PF would have found himself in our world, in our time and in Kosovo. <br /><br />First was coat of arms of house Vaasa who ruled Kingdom of Sweden during 16th century and so they were also Grand dukes of Finland. Second was war flag of Russian navy when Finland was part of Russia(-&gt;1917). In both cases users of those symbols didn't need them anymore. House Vaasa died out and Russia became first Soviet Russia and then Soviet Union. <br />


created: 2004-04-26 17:55:42
subject: <b>Hmm..</b>
body:
I think a whole new section of the FAQ is devoted to this (or at least one part of the Longest Theory); and faced with its logic, I cannot help but agree. Read it.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Granting you and I argue<br />If you get the better of me<br />Are you right and I wrong?<br />If I get the better of you<br />Am I right and you wrong?<br />Or are we both right?<br />Or are we both wrong?<br />Since you and I cannot know<br />We all live in darkness</font><p></p>


created: 2004-06-15 12:42:46
subject: <b>Ingtar freed Fain</b>
body:
RJ said so in one of his interviews. it's on the site.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Tsorovan'n'dore<br />-StormDancer<br /><br />&quot;We rode on the winds of the rising storm,<br /> we ran to the sounds of the thunder.<br /> We danced among the lightning bolts,<br /> and tore the world asunder.&quot;<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-08-05 17:55:57
subject: <b>How the Fal Dara guards died</b>
body:
When Fain escapes it says that the guards were shredded and chewed. As we know from aCoS, a simmilar thing happens to the people when the thick mist descends on the nobles camp. At both of these times, Fain is present, and bodies are ripped apart. One would asume that the mist was either Mashadar itself, or a similar entity that Fain has created. Perhaps Fain summoned the mist in Fal Dara, and it killed the guards.


created: 2004-04-05 12:51:24
subject: <b>I kinda like this theory, but...</b>
body:
I haven't voted on it, yet.  The biggest objection that I have is that it took two very skilled and presumably powerful Aes Sedai in the Age of Legends to drill a hole into the prison.  You're suggesting that two half-crazed savages from the third age could destroy the whole thing.  I suppose the Choedan Kal do change the equation, but I still have my doubts.  On the plus side, your theory does resolve the dilemma of Aes Sedai in the now defunct second age drilling through a complete prison, and not some form of patch.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Diomedes <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-04-05 13:04:59
subject: <b>To Diomedes</b>
body:
Yes, Rand &amp; the rest of the channelers do not know things that the Chosen &amp; LTT took for granted. But, they also take for granted things that the Chosen and LTT thought were impossible- Healing Stilling, the Warder Bond, unraveling a Weave. <br /><br />It stands to reason that they will figure out how to do what LTT &amp; the Hundred Companions failed to do (re-seal the DO )  In fact, since time in the WoT is cyclical, they <i>have</i> to before the AoL comes again.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;These guys are special... These are crack soldiers... They are everywhere&#8230;yes, they really have us by our balls here&#8230; Can you get us out of here?&#8221;<br />Zarqawi about 3/504 PIR</font><p></p>


created: 2004-04-05 15:52:20
subject: <b>Couple of Things</b>
body:
File Leader: Thats the single greatest arguement I have heard for this theory. It allows the Wheel to be broken, thus creating linear time, ending (what I see as the plague of) cyclical time.<br /><br />A few problems I have though is that it's always said that Creator imprisoned the Dark One, and I don't think even with the One Power they could fix it. The one power drives the wheel, but the DOs prison is outisde the pattern.<br /><br />I don't think anything using the One Power could affect that prison very much at all.


created: 2004-04-05 21:11:42
subject: <b>Agree with SSJPabs</b>
body:
The prison cant be destroyed with the Choedan Kal.<br /><br />Rand will clear the rubble by breaking the Seals. With the rubble cleared away, the wound (Bore) will be allowed to heal itself, much like our own wounds are healed after removing the detritus (foreign objects, bacteria, etc).<br /><br />That will constitute the &quot;great battle done&quot;. The wars between the Light followers and the Dark followers will constitute &quot;the world not done with battle&quot;.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2004-04-06 16:11:53
subject: <b>Jo &amp; SSJPabs</b>
body:
I'm not so much arguing <i>for</i> this theory (I lean more toward what jo wrote) .<br /><br />I'm just trying to point out that Rand &amp; Co will do what the AoL AS thought impossible- put the DO's prison back into its whole form. This has to be the case, as Fel stated, because when the AoL comes again, they are going to Bore into a whole prison, not a patch.<br /><br />I think that the rubble refers to the growing useless Seals and the eroded &quot;edges&quot; to the bore (much as a surgeon has to cut away the dead flesh around a brown recluse bite for the bite to heal)<br /><br />As well, I think that the Bore will be Healed by a large (perhaps the largest possible) circle using the CK &amp; all the other angreal/sangreal they can get their hands on.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;These guys are special... These are crack soldiers... They are everywhere&#8230;yes, they really have us by our balls here&#8230; Can you get us out of here?&#8221;<br />Zarqawi about 3/504 PIR</font><p></p>


created: 2004-04-06 16:24:47
subject: <b>The DO is outside the pattern...</b>
body:
Someone suggested that it would be impossible for anyone using only the One Power to imprison the DO and seal him off from the world.  This notion involves the thought that the DO is in some kind of prison, maybe not unlike those bad guys in Superman, who are imprisoned in a little floaty dimension.<br /><br />I would agree that the one power can do nothing outside the pattern.  However, couldn't the one power can be used to create a wall (or bubble or &quot;force field&quot; or whatever) around the entire pattern, effectively sealing the DO outside?  This wouldn't be prison in the conventional sense, but the DO would be trapped in an area outside the pattern -- thus fitting all we know on the matter.  Sure, the area outside might be infinite, but it's still an imprisonment if it's all just nothingness.<br /><br />I guess the Bore could be characterized as a slow leak in the bubble around the Pattern, or maybe an airlock.<br /><br />Just my two cents.


created: 2004-04-08 13:31:39
subject: <b>More general than the specific Bore...</b>
body:
Remember the first part of Fel's note: &quot;Belief and order give strength.&quot;  I think clearing away the rubble might also refer to the destruction the Dragon Reborn has wrought on the world, and more destruction to come (as bad as it is now, the prophecies seem to imply something much worse) on the order of a new Breaking of the World. Even if the destruction Rand causes is only the shake-up of the status quo that seems to be occurring, it would have to be more significant than what was wrought by the Hundred Years War or the Trolloc Wars. Remember Ingtar's complaint in Book 2 - humanity has been dwindling and losing strength.  The world has been seriously out of balance and the primary culture stagnant for a long time.  Salavation will have to entail a renewal of the world and humanity, not just a better wall against outside enemies.  I suspect the Seanchan and Sea Folk will come out of this a lot better off than most people would like, and probably more integrated into the mainstream culture of the lands on the inside cover maps, as neither of those cultures is as moribund and hidebound.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


created: 2004-04-11 13:35:28
subject: <b>I think</b>
body:
I think taht the bore is a weave of the one power. The patch is a covering over the bore. right now in the story the patch is leaking, this is part of the rubble. the rest of the rubble is the weave of the bore. Rand has to get rid of the BOTH the patch and the bore. This is wuite unique beacuse in the AOL the channelers didnt know how to tear apart weaves (like the aeil wiseones). Thats how he's going to clear the rubble. after the bore is cleared the pattern will clsoe itself because the bore(theweaves) is whats holding it open.


created: 2004-04-11 19:29:38
subject: <b>Well...</b>
body:
You're theory is interesting, but I have to say I disagree...<br /><br />First of all, I can't agree that Rand will trust Alivia, but maybe he will.  You never know, RJ may decide to throw us through a loop and have him trust her enough to choose her over Nynaeve... or maybe by that time he'll have been returned to his humanity, and learn to trust again.<br /><br />Kunida, I agree with your idea... in fact, I have a theory posted on it: How it all ties together, by Samshaidar Mhael.<br /><br />I pretty much believe that both the patch on the bore, and the bore itself, are weavings of the One Power.  I believe that with the aid of the Choedan Kal (both of them, I have pretty much taken to heart the theory that Elayne will create a new key terangreal), Rand and Nynaeve?, Alivia?, or maybe even Aviendha?, will help him unravel these weaves.<br /><br />If you want the whole story, please read my theory.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Samshaidar Mhael<br />The Leader of the Destroyers of Shadow <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-blue.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-red.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/borg.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-green.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-purple.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />I am immortal, I have inside me blood of kings <br />I have no rival, no man can be my equal<br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-04-13 22:26:00
subject: <b>about the blackboard post at the top</b>
body:
whoever it was with the first post said that it took two of powerful AOL aes sedai to drill the bore in the  first place and how could two barbarian like power wealders now break it all down? well i seem to remember that cynaide in her POV when battling with Alivia for a sec seems to think that alivia could hold as much power as she when she had her old body, and it was her old body that was the one that drilled the bore...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-04-14 05:02:04
subject: <b>Alivia will kill Rand</b>
body:
Alivia and Rand will link, using the Choeden Kahl and Alivia will lead. Alivia will draw too much power from Rand to seal the Bore again, Rand will die.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />  Eleanor Jagad  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />The information contained in this message is confidential; disclosure, duplication and/or distribution of this message, without the Amyrlin's consent, is prohibited. This message is sealed to the Flame.</font><p></p>


created: 2004-04-14 16:36:04
subject: <b>Ugh...</b>
body:
man, that would really suck, I mean jeez.  If RJ does that, I will be so freakin pissed off, what a damn stupid way to kill the main character of a series, even if he has to die, which I'm not sure he does<br />and anyway, they stated that when you are linked, you CANT draw too much power and kill yourself/burn yourself out...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Samshaidar Mhael<br />The Leader of the Destroyers of Shadow <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-blue.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-red.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/borg.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-green.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-purple.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />I am immortal, I have inside me blood of kings <br />I have no rival, no man can be my equal<br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-04-18 13:13:26
subject: <b>Maybe, just Maybe...</b>
body:
After reading these comments and others on various topics, I am venturing my first thoughts(theory). Forgive me, if I don't give credit where it is due, I just don't remember everyone's names. Well...here goes... Since Rand walks in T'A'R, and things done there have a permanence in the &quot;real world&quot;...could Rand &quot;heal&quot; the bore in TAR? The Fisher King wrote about &quot;the superman theory&quot; where really bad people were sealed into another dimension. Another theorist wrote that  (s)he thought that TAR was like the helical twists of an DNA strand where things were twisted about and one could Travel because you twisted one part of the pattern to touch another part. I've been thinkin' what if Rand goes into the Dream World and reseals the bore (however it will be done) returns to randland, but in so doing loses apart of himself there. (I seem to remember the Aeil wiseones talking to Egwene about this)(?). That's my thoughts and I'm stickin' to them! After rereading this I may do a theory on it. Please comment on this


created: 2004-04-23 00:04:56
subject: <b>Ages...</b>
body:
Maybe I missed it somewhere. Does it say somewhere that if something happened in one Age it is going to happen again when that Age comes around again? I don't believe that the same thing has to happen again.<br /><br />Sorry I went of the subject.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perplexed.gif" border="0" />Why do cows moo?<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perplexed.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Thats one <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/crazy.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />All <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/clown.gif" border="0" />s must die</font><p></p>


created: 2004-05-01 20:48:25
subject: <b>To Soulbrother</b>
body:
You have it backwards; it is the Real world that has an effect upon T'A'R, not the other way around.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Bow to the Donut!!!   <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-03-17 00:15:36
subject: <b>No, Soulbrother is right...</b>
body:
I agree with soulbrother, there is a theroy (cant remember who wrote it, sorry) that says something along the lines of the DOs prison is in T'A'R. Although it is impossible for someone to enter Shayol Ghul in TAR there must be a connection to it somewhere. If the prison is healed in TAR, then it will be fully healed in all worlds and thus creating the shiny new prison for them to drill into later.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">The Wotmaniac currntly known as &quot;Taint Bearer&quot;<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <i>If you ever catch on fire, try to avoid looking in a mirror, because I bet that will really throw you into a panic.</i> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Came in 13th place in the Wotmania Hunt 2005 with 3790 points!<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-09-22 18:03:49
subject: <b>Rand won't use Alivia</b>
body:
I don't beleive that Alivia will be the one chosen to fight at Rand's side. Rand has very little trust and with something as big as fighting the DO i think the only person strong enough that he trusts will be Nyneave.<br />As for the rest of the theory, I haven't decided yet but it is very well done.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">WAFFLES!<br />Bonded to Model_02<br />Alicia wishes she was as hot as me<br />Member of Anatidaephobians Anonymous<br />Not-So-Near Second Cousin to Saeric Greylord<br />Officially better at hockey than DREWRULESWOT!<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2006-01-02 18:44:38
subject: <b>A little clarification....</b>
body:
This is in response to a comment eleanor made earlier.<br /><br />'Alivia and Rand will link, using the Choeden Kahl and Alivia will lead. Alivia will draw too much power from Rand to seal the Bore again, Rand will die.'<br /><br />I don't exactly remember where but in one of the forsakens POV, they mention (sammuael i think) just him and graendal linking. She will not because when only a man and a woman link, the man MUST control the flows. so Alivia couldn't lead the cirlce if it was just Rand and her.<br />


created: 2006-06-27 09:53:41
subject: <b>big mistake</b>
body:
I&#180;m afraid your theorie can&#180;t work since the woman Choedan kal is destroyed not only the access key and elayne as no idea how to make angreal so only the male choedan kal to work with.


created: 2007-08-06 08:28:16
subject: <b>Logain uses Choeden Kahl to create a new prison for DO</b>
body:
It never says that Rand wins the last battle.  Only that he has to be there.  Mat gives away &quot;Half the Light of the World to Save the World&quot;.  The &quot;Light of the World&quot; is the Choeden Kahl of which only half is left unbroken. The seals must be broken before a new prison is made and this is done by breaking the seals at atime of his chosing.


created: 2008-04-29 14:02:02
subject: <b>yes</b>
body:
I agrea with Eleanor, However I think that rand will use callandor.  I wrote a theory but it was never posted =(  the jist of it goes like this.  It takes 1 man, and 2 women to use it safely.  This is according to the wot's refrence desk.  However if one woman and one man use it then it wont be safe.<br /><br />Therefore Alivia and rand will do it, because 1) she is the one min said would help kill rand. and 2) She is the strongest woman...<br /><br />I believe she will finish up where rand leaves off, He wont use the Choeden Kal because it has the buffer, and this was also another thoery I posted that wasnt deemed good enough was that callandor wasnt flawed. but was made intentionally to not have a buffer.


created: 2004-04-05 15:53:10
subject: <b>Death to the Shaido</b>
body:
I like this theory.  Whether or not it will actually happen is up to RJ, but I have been waiting for the Shaido to get their come-uppance for a long time.  I actually think that they fulfilled their purpose in the story at the end of LoC and RJ should have finished them soon after.  However, Perrin did have some good moments with his axe in CoT b/c of the Shaido.  Nonetheless, I agree that it's about time for the Shaido threat to be dealt with.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;The reason I won't tell people though is that I am enjoying watching them squirm entirely too much.&quot; - Robert Jordan</font><p></p>


created: 2004-04-05 16:13:56
subject: <b>But the Aiel are doomed themselves</b>
body:
A remnant of a remnant will survive. That's all. The whole breaking with Aiel traditions, the fact that as you say the shaido are not aiel is part of destruction of the aiel. <br /><br />If the Shaido are no longer Aiel they escape this doom. Why would the pattern care they have served their purpose.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">We rode on the winds of the rising storm,<br />We ran to the sounds of the thunder,<br />We danced among the lightning bolts,<br />and tore the world asunder.</font><p></p>


created: 2004-04-05 19:11:55
subject: <b>That's great, but...</b>
body:
It is obvious that SOMEthing is going to happen with the Shaido. The tention between Perrin and the Shaido can be cut with a knife. HOW is the question we need to be asking?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;The rich get richer till the poor get educated.&quot;<br />-Sage Francis</font><p></p>


created: 2004-04-05 20:53:43
subject: <b>Like most of your Theory, but</b>
body:
Don`t believe the whole Clan is bad, nor that they will be destroyed.<br /><br />Also, the original Aiel were dedicated to the Way of the Leaf. The only ones still dedicated are the Tinkers. IMO, the Aiel are misreading their Prophecies, as are everyone else. The &quot;remnant of a remnant&quot; applies only to the Tinkers.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2004-04-05 23:04:18
subject: <b>There is also the view</b>
body:
that the Aiel as a whole are already a remnant of a remnant, when one considers how many there were in the Age of Legends.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> Linda Sedai <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Proud member of the Embroiderer's Guild of the White Tower<br /><br /><b><font color="red">FAQ admin</font></b> </font>'cos the FAQ is where it's at.<br /><br /><b>Currently working on:</b> my 70th FAQ<p><a href="http://13depository.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">The thirteenth depository : A Wheel of Time blog</a></p><p></p>


created: 2004-04-05 23:17:06
subject: <b>Death to Shaido!</b>
body:
I just want to see sevanna bite it... I think the principal question is how Perrin will manage it. After all, even counting in Masema's men and the Asha'man he's still badly outnumbered.


created: 2004-04-06 12:10:21
subject: <b>A remnant of a remnant</b>
body:
Part of the point I was trying to make (and I probably missed the target on this one) is that the Shaido have definitively placed themselves outside the remnant to be saved.  As for who exactly or how they will be saved, my guess is as good as anyone's.<br /><br />A point to note is that the Mera'din are not necessarily irredeemable yet, but they will have to make their choice in the next book.  My personal favorite scenario for the Shaido's downfall is an attack by Perrin forces (including the approaching Seanchan, thanks to Masema's letter from High Lady Suroth) in combination with a Faile-inspired revolt of the Mera'din.<br /><br />As for which Aiel will be saved for the next Age, I fear a great many of the Aiel will die in the Last Battle.  The propehcy states that the Aiel will take up their positions of old, namely when they were the Dashain Aiel and followed the Way of the Leaf.  Those Aiel who survive the Last Battle will follow the Way of the Leaf.<br />


created: 2004-04-06 13:36:31
subject: <b>Tinkering Gai'shain</b>
body:
Many Aiel, not only from among the Shaido, but also from the car'a'carn's own Aiel, got the &quot;madness&quot; and made themselves gai'shain or merely threw their spears down to the ground and ran away out of the story. Add Tarmon Gai'don to the mix, that's how we come up with &quot;a remnant of a remnant will survive.&quot; I agree that the Shaido are living on borrowed time and will be woven out of the Pattern in some way or other. I think that the Gai'shain are as close to the Age of Legends Aiel as the Tinkers--they make themselves servants in peace, but don't really know how to enjoy life whereas the Tinkers enjoy peaceful life, but don't serve anyone.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Gaeran Amaconde<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />Grand Historian at the Court of the Sun<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />One of Those Chosen to Bring the Light<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" />Master of Graendal's Revels<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" />&quot;If sometimes our dreams come true, what of our nightmares?&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-04-08 12:29:53
subject: <b>Enjoyed your theory.</b>
body:
I think that just about everyone agrees that the Shaido are doomed.  What I liked is how you started your theory.  <br /><br />It seems that the Shaido are barely holding together at present.  Add a little stress and the Shaido will fall.<br /><br />Columbo is on the case!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2004-04-09 21:08:08
subject: <b>500 Channellers</b>
body:
Nobody has the capacity to defeat 500 channelers.<br /><br />The Shaido must crumble before Perrin attacks.<br /><br />I think Sevannah's threat to the other WO's in the event of her death may be real.<br /><br />Kill her then the 'crumbling' may begin. Probably followed by Rolan &amp; Co.<br /><br />If Perrin does attack the Shaido with what he's got (including the Seanchan) it must be a slow hit and run battle (ala gateways). An hour skirmish from the north, next hit them from the south. Keep freaking them out.<br /><br />A 10 day battle would shake the Shaido physically AND mentally and allow some of the gaishin to escape.<br /><br />A long battle would push to the Shaido south to the Seanchan or maybe east to the Band???????<br />


created: 2004-04-10 09:50:04
subject: <b>Agree that Perrin will somehow crush the Shaido</b>
body:
<b> The Shaido clan and those with them follow less of ji'e'toh every day, and have rejected the Prophecy and the Dragon Reborn entirely, which seals their doom. Like those old clans from before the agreement of Rhuidean, they will be woven out of the Pattern. Another example of this phenomena is the false Dragons. When the true Dragon Reborn proclaimed himself, the false dragons were immediately cast down. In both cases, the fundamental cause is that the Pattern no longer supported the status they claimed, nor will it support the &quot;false Aiel&quot;, the Shaido. </b><br /><br />But your argument that the Pattern supports or doesn't support certain people isn't cogently in my view. <br /><br />Logain &amp; Taim were probably both false Dragons (one could argue if the Shadow installed Taim).<br />Nevertheless they are still very important and powerful players. They were not woven out of the pattern.<br />We even know that Logain can expect great glory. <br /><br />Besides, Logain was already captured before Rand proclaimed himself as the Dragon Reborn.<br /><br />The pattern is not a thinking being and can't support someone as you indicate. <br />The Wheel can spun out ta'veren to change the Pattern, though. <br />Since Rand, Perrin and Mat are ta'veren and thus can influence the Pattern, their enemies, in this case the Shaido, are doomed.


created: 2004-04-12 21:42:28
subject: <b>But they were kind of woven out.</b>
body:
At one point, Moiraine and Siuan, I think, are talking about how 'the Pattern demands a Dragon.'  Somewhere else, it is mentioned that both Taim and the guy in Tear (I think) were captured at the very time Rand proclaimed himself.  So, even if they weren't woven out of life, they were woven out of the spotlight.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Bond-holder of Falon Deathwatch Guard, having earned the right in bloody combat.<br /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bobbafett.gif" border="0" /> Loyal Fan of Achates <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bobbafett.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /> Staunch Ciceronian <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> Acute Greekling <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-04-13 00:09:25
subject: <b>Dude...</b>
body:
I am just waiting for the Shaido to bite the dust, especially some of the wise ones weve met.  And most of all, SEVANA, DIE YOU STUPID STUPID WOMAN.<br /><br />I think that the Mera'din will be part of the &quot;remnant of the remnant&quot; that will survive, they seem to be alright guys.<br /><br />Oh, btw, has anyone else thought about the Spears of the Dragon... I think that's what they're called anyway.  You know, the ones who wear the Ancient Aes Sedai yin yang thingy on a headband.  They seem to be closer to the old Aiel than anyone else... especially those who seem to have stuck themselves in the Gai'shain's robes permanently.  <br /><br />Actually, I'm getting an idea here, maybe we'll get a few new tribes out of this.  I'm willing to bet the Shaido are dead, but that the Mera'din will survive and become either a new society... or clan... or something... of Aiel.  The Spears of the Dragon will probably become something new too.  And finally, we'll have the Aiel who stick to the present routine... the only true Aiel left... a &quot;remnant of a remnant&quot;- or maybe not, it's just a thought.<br /><br />Maybe all of the Aiel will become Spears of the Dragon... hmm... anyway, just a thought.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Samshaidar Mhael<br />The Leader of the Destroyers of Shadow <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-blue.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-red.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/borg.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-green.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-purple.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />I am immortal, I have inside me blood of kings <br />I have no rival, no man can be my equal<br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-04-13 13:45:59
subject: <b>The death of the Shaido</b>
body:
I think the Shaido's fate was sealed when they took Faile as a gai'shan. Perrin is getting more and more on edge over her capture and pretty soon he will snap. The First of Mayen isn't helping the matter either. Soon Perrin is going to throw caution to the wind and the Shaido will be destroyed. I will bring up a point made in another theory a while back that Faile may be pregnant and if and when Perrin finds out, that will be the thing to push him over the edge. So to summarize, Perrin is the downfall of the Shaido, it is just a matter of time.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> Snarl of the Wolf King <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />As the darkness deepens<br />Young Bull waits,<br />the fires of his anger<br />burning bright in the night<br />His eyes glowing golden<br />Ax shimmering with the cold moonlight;<br />Young Bull crouches<br />awaiting the Dawn<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-04-13 19:21:03
subject: <b>Good theory</b>
body:
I tend to agree with your theory, but i also thing the fact that Perrin is a blacksmith and the Aiel's customs reguarding blacksmiths, combat and who can and can't be taken as gai'shain will come in to play. (This was stated in another theory a while ago and made sence to me then.) I think sooner or later Sevanna will make the mistake of ordering the Shaido to attack Perrin after it become known that he's a blacksmith, and when when/if they refuse I think she may attack him in someway herself. this added to Perrin's forces, the Seanchan and anyone else who might take a shot at the Shaido will pretty much finish them off. And if as Snarl says, if Perrin finds out Faile is pregnant....well lets just say I pity the Shaido if that should happen. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />


created: 2004-04-14 09:50:11
subject: <b>Nice Theory: I think my theory will compliment it</b>
body:
I like where you and your commenters are going with the HOW on the Shaido story line.  <br /><br />Please read and comment on the Untouchable Blacksmith theory.  <br /><br />My last comment specifically deals with the HOW in a simple and straight forward manner IMHO. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> It's only a flesh wound <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-04-21 18:06:50
subject: <b>Yeah, but what about...</b>
body:
...the Tinkers? They weren't &quot;woven out&quot; when they abandoned their mission to protect the old ter'/sa'/angreal. The only thing they are still dedicated to as Aiel is the Way of the Leaf wich the present Aiel have totally abandoned (exept for never touching swords).<br /><br />Sorry 'bout grammatical/spelling errors, English is only my second language. Me be an Swede <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />


created: 2004-04-26 17:52:32
subject: <b>Ah like et.</b>
body:
Now this I like. I want to think that only the Shaido as a clan will be destroyed, and not the people themselves, though. Their bad choices in Wise Ones and clan chiefs aside, the Joe-Shaido seems to be the run-of-the-mill Aielman to me; it would be unfair to let them suffer the consequences. Integration into the other clans maybe? Or worse, they're 'downgraded' to a sept..<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Granting you and I argue<br />If you get the better of me<br />Are you right and I wrong?<br />If I get the better of you<br />Am I right and you wrong?<br />Or are we both right?<br />Or are we both wrong?<br />Since you and I cannot know<br />We all live in darkness</font><p></p>


created: 2004-04-27 14:15:04
subject: <b>The Prophet has an army too.</b>
body:
And he is almost on Perrin's side. I'd have to agree with the fact that the Shaido are about to die.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">the kfp<br /><br />&quot;...there's a little boy with a spider in his hand, there's a little boy with a spider in his hand, hello, oh oh..&quot; The White Stripes, Little People</font><p></p>


created: 2004-08-01 08:35:34
subject: <b>Nice Theory but a few points</b>
body:
I like most of the theory but there are a few points that must be made:<br />1.  The Tinkers still exist.  The only know of the song, treebrothers and the Way of the Leaf.  it is possible to abandon your &quot;cause&quot; on the wheel of time and somehow surivve.<br />2.  We are all assuming that all of the Shaido were &quot;gated&quot; to the Westlands.  Some septs could have been gated to Shara, The Isle of Madness, a large island out at sea, the Seanchan Empire, maybe on the edge of the Three Fold Land (what news of that place have we heard?), or the Blight (what fun that one would have been).  It seems for sure that at least 10 and probably 20 septs are gathering around Sevanna but even then it is a small portion of their strength.  Some Shaido may survive forever in another part of the world, who knows?<br />3.  The Shaido, in my opinion, are farther removed from the original Dai'shan Aiel than even the Tinkers.  Even the Tinkers are closer, and here's why.  The Tinkers only lasted as Aiel for a few generations.  They don't have the benefit of ancestral/historical knowledge from Rhuidean.  The Shaido Wise Ones do.  If they were true to the Phrophecy of Rhuidean, they should have thoroughly examined their false Cara'carn (I forgot his name, sorry) and come to the conclusion, especially after their defeats at Cairhienen and Dumai Wells, that something with Sevanna's &quot;plan&quot; was wrong.  They know the history, the phrophecy, and they know they don't follow it. These Shaido Wise Ones are true betrayers in this sense.<br />4.  Most posts assume that all we know is what is going on when it comes to the battle.  What about the Asha'man?  They've grown in number and combat/one power experience since Dumai Wells.  They know the Shaido and know they can defeat them.  The Wise Ones are women, they can't sense saidin.  Bring in the Asha'man, use the One Power and box them in, let the slaughter begin.  <br />5.  Someone mentioned Mat and the band.  What about the Army of the Dragon and Illian/Tear forces on the Seanchan/Rand front?  What about even more Seanchan forces?  These forces can swiftly be brought to bear via gateways.  The possibility of the Shiado being destroyed are very real but the pattern may not be a big factor as you think (this is all theoretical, I can honestly see both ways).  It is in the best interest of all parties, to include an insane prophet, to have the Shaido destroyed.  They must be destroyed to bring any semblance of peace to the lands.<br /><br />My two cents<br />Nikolai al'Farran (11th lvl initiate, 3rd lvl Asha'man, 1st lvl Armsman)<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.&quot; - George Orwell</font><p></p>


created: 2004-09-03 15:27:45
subject: <b>Never thought of it in that juncture</b>
body:
I completely agree with this theory! I never thought of this connnection with the old Aeil theory but I have always thought that they sealed there own doom by not believing in the dragon and not sending anyone to rhuidien (sp) any <br /><br />GREAT THEORY<br /><br />I am sure it will come true.<br /><br />Too bad for that Shadio man aiel and his wife who got seperated from their kids....<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Egwene Fan  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/egwene.gif" border="0" /><br />Elaida will fall!!! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /> <br />Egwene is meant to rule the White Tower and even Rand will know her fury!! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-09-09 04:22:39
subject: <b>a girl can dream</b>
body:
I'd love to see the Seanchan get a hold of all those Shaido wise ones that were stupid enough to follow Sevannah. Normally I hate the idea of damane but in this case I'd make an exception.<br /><br />I'd also noticed that it looks like Matt, the band, Perrin, the Prophet's army, the Whitecloaks, the Seanchan, and the Shaido are all wandering around in circles in the same small area on the map. There are many interesting possibilities, some good for our heroes and some disasterous, in that equation...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Show me the Frangipani.</font><p></p>


created: 2004-10-19 16:49:09
subject: <b>Points</b>
body:
The Shaido were probably sent into Randland proper in order to increase chaos.<br /><br />Regarding the mission of the original Aiel: Partly it was singing and making things grow, partly serving the Aes Sedai/the Dragon. The last part may have been the most important, but the point is, TOGETHER present day Aiel and Tuatha'an are still following their purpose. There are more Aiel and Tuatha'an, since their part of the missive is bigger.<br /><br />Maybe the WotL protects the Tuatha'an. they hurt no one, and don't really effect the pattern all that much (since everyone seems to avoid them), so they're allowed to exist. The shaido can cause a major disturbance in the pattern, so they must be eliminated.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">The only way to convince me is by providing some evidence!</font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-03 05:38:40
subject: <b>Wrong enemy !</b>
body:
When your dog has a flea, do you kill him ?<br />There is only one matter with the Shaido : Sevanna.<br />She considers herself as a clan chief, but in the wetlanders'way. She drives Shaido by the force, and their fear. <br />Rolan the Brotherless said to Naedric in CoT : &quot;Do you abandon your honor because Sevanna abandon hers ? &quot; And if the Shaido didn't answer, he let Faile go. Even the 500 Wise Ones have been trapped by Sevanna. Only Sevanna abandon Aiel's ways of life. She want power for herself, she searchs for glory. She behaves like one of these fool of wetlanders.  The Shaido won't be doomed, they must be rescued.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> if you're seeing me <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> if you're hearing me <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/oh2.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> if you're smelling my presence <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> Beware, I have ever taken you as my target <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-08-26 02:07:14
subject: <b>but</b>
body:
Long Tooth,  just because Sevanna abandoned ji'e'toh doesn't meant that the others HAVE to, they CHOSE to.  They cose to takle wetlanders gaishan.  The one dude chose to try and rape Faile.  They chose to follow Sevanna.  They could have easily said &quot;you know, that wetlander guy is alive and Couladin isn't, Sevanna is telling us to abandon all of our traditions and culture, so maybe the wetlander really is he Who Comes With The Dawn and we should tell Sevanna to go it on a segade (I think that's what they called a cactus).<br /><br />I'm pretty sure that the Seanchan and Perrin attack and defeat the Shaido that are west of the Dragon Wall.  Yes, the Shaido have more channelers, but some of them can barely do it, and none of them have as much experience oin battle as the damane, or even most Aes Sedai.  I think a lot of them, including Sevanna, will escape somehow, however, and eventually join the Dark One's army.  There's too much similarity between Shaido and Shadow for them not to.


created: 2008-10-18 09:03:13
subject: <b>OR maybe</b>
body:
Mybe Rands blood on the rocks means the SA also or more so.That is a lot of blood on the rocks and there will be alot of blood on the rocks if I know JR.


created: 2009-05-13 08:04:04
subject: <b>ok</b>
body:
We know that the Shaido are screwed,that is one of the most obvious plot lines .And to say that they no long hold a place in the pattern is out of touch though,everithing has its place even if it is to fall by the wayside as a reminder.


created: 2009-06-27 18:43:34
subject: <b>forshadowed for sure</b>
body:
This theory has been known for some time.we no about the prof icy and the fact that the shaido will be weaved out because they no longer suit a purpose. But I am not so sure that all of the shaido are bad ,just misinformed or forced to . savna does have a oath rod and she also has wise ones that have to prob. committing murder ,why not mass compulsion.She is scum and will do anything to win.We will see.good theory ,thank you for the chance to comment on it. RIP RJ.


created: 2004-04-05 08:09:29
subject: <b>I see no hints for your theory</b>
body:
Note that Guaire was beaten and gentled. <br /><br />According to the Seven Spokes Chronology Ishy was as Moerad an advisor of Hawkwing from 973 FY - 1015 FY, while Guaire<br />was active between 939 FY - 943. <br />That means Ishy was imprisoned at Guaire's time if he was around 40 years free from time to time in a regular cyrcle. <br /><br />Finally I wonder where did you get the description of the physical appearance of Guaire? <br />In any case, Moridin's body is a new one for Ishy. <br /><br />In my view Guaire was just another false Dragon spun out by the Wheel.


created: 2004-04-05 08:27:44
subject: <b>I like loony Guaire Amalasan theories</b>
body:
..having written one myself. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />IIRC, there was a mystery surrounding Guaire Amalasan's fate. Additionally, the Black Ajah were in full operation at this stage. They would have sprung him out if he had been their master.<br /><br />The physical descriptions part is an error IMO. I don't think there is much of a description of him apart from the fact that he had an unnerving stare, or something similar. I can't remember, to be honest.<br /><br />Assuming, however, that Guaire Amalasan was not Ishy, it's still clear that GA was being controlled be Ishy. Ishy says so himself in tEotW and it fits his character. GA is just a pawn in the game.<br /><br />As for the 40 year cycles, there were 30 years between GA's disappearance and Moerad's appearance. Ishy says himself that he controlled GA, which he could not have done unless he was free. The 40 year cycle confuses me anyway. I can't remember the source for this. IMO it messes up how the Black Ajah may function, unless he is imprisoned for less time than he is free for. <br /><br />My memory is failing, oh dear. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="blue"><img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /> <b>PROUDLY CELEBRATING 10 YEARS OF WOTMANIA!</b></font> <img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /><br /><br /><font color="purple"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <b>FAQ and WoT Admin</b></font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><font color="gray"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> <b>Part-time Philosopher of the Wheel</b> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /></font></font><p><a href="/wotmessageboard2showmessage.asp?MessageID=107993" target="_blank">New WoT quizzes!</a></p><p></p>


created: 2004-04-05 12:30:00
subject: <b>Ishy could be controlling GA</b>
body:
I don't think that he was GA, however.  If Ishy was controlling GA, I think it would have to be through the Black Ajah.  The timing of Ishy's periodic release from the Bore is tricky, but I think he is only completely free every thousand years.  I think he slowly gains more freedom from it, until he is free completely, and then slowly gets drawn back.  I base this on Moiraine's revelations about Fain's relationship with Ba'alzamon in EotW.  <br /><br />Also, consider what we know about the Black Ajah plot in New Spring, Sierin Vayu, and Alviarin's thoughts in ACoS.  The Black Ajah don't know who or how old the Dragon Reborn is so they start killing lucky people.  When Ishy finds out he kills the old head of the BA (can't remember her name).  Alviarin thinks to herself that people were still carrying out the old plan until Sierin's death two (or three) years later.  If Sierin was Amyrlin for five (six?) years, that means that Ishy didn't find out about the plan for two years, and didn't make sure it stopped for another three.  To me that suggests that Ishy is heavily constrained to the Bore.  Lastly, the BA chief died in a ter'angreal -- perhaps she was using to communicate with Ishy?  Perhaps he got pissed, and trapped her in it?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Diomedes <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-04-06 13:55:38
subject: <b>Second Dragon</b>
body:
Guaire Amalasan is not Ishamael. Ishy's far too proud to allow himself to be captured by Artur Hawkwing and be carried as a shielded prisoner to the White Tower for trial. No, I think Guaire was a Dragon Preborn--LTT/Rand born too early and removed by the Pattern through Artur Hawkwing.<br /><br />Didn't Ishamael kill Jarna Malari (BA head) for murdering Sierin Vayu rather than killing the poor lucky men? I think Ishamael had plans for Sierin who was herself a Gray, but acted very Red. (I'm going with the Big White Book--some contradiction here in the books: Alviarin thought Jarna was killed for murdering Tamra Ospenya, while Chesmal Emry tricked the Red Ajah into killing Sierin--help me here) Anyways, Ishy wouldn't care about the slaughter of the innocent lucky men...it only promotes the Shadow's goal of chaos in the Westlands.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Gaeran Amaconde<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />Grand Historian at the Court of the Sun<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />One of Those Chosen to Bring the Light<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" />Master of Graendal's Revels<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" />&quot;If sometimes our dreams come true, what of our nightmares?&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-04-06 15:36:42
subject: <b>Ishy and Jarna</b>
body:
Ishamael killed Jarna in his wrath and tortured the whole supreme council for killing the Blue Amyrlin Tamra Ospenya without his command and perhaps for what resulted from it (the killing of the searchers and possibly the search itself), not for killing the Grey Amyrlin Sierin Vayu.<br /><br />We still don't know the full extent of what resulted from the murder of Tamra but if NS is a clue then it's quite possible the anonymous note Siuan left under Sierin's door initiated a search for the BA or at least gave them a hard time.<br /><br />What Alviarin was referring to is that it took two years  for the situation to get back to normal for the BA after Tamra's murder, that the &quot;crisis&quot; lasted until Sierin died.  <br /><br />Sierin was also murdered but the Black Ajah was not even &quot;officially&quot; involved (Alviarin and the Supreme Council don't know the truth about it, Alviarin even wonders if Elaida was involved).  In WH Chesmal Emry boasts that she herself induced the Red Ajah to kill Sierin before she could expose her and that by doing so she apparently saved the Black Ajah singlehandly.   <br /><br />There's an inconsistency between the Guide and the books here regarding the Amyrlins as in Alviarin's POV in ACoS it states that Sierin died two years after Tamra was murdered while the Guide states she ruled from 979 NE to 984 NE.<br /><br />We don't know how long it took to Ishamael to react to Tamra's murder but Alviarin's POV implies that she was already Head of the Black Ajah by the time Sierin died because she states that the BA most certainly did not kill her, therefore it was after Ishamael has warned them never to act again without his consent.  Since Sierin apparently threatened the BA but Jarna did not have her killed, it seems likely Ishamael had reacted to Tamra's murder and instate Alviarin relatively soon after Tamra's murder (not too long after the timeline of NS would be my guess). <br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="images/personalsmilies/30778.gif" />Wheel of Time Reference Library : Articles, maps, charts and misc.<img src="images/personalsmilies/30778.gif" /><br /><br /></font><p><a href="http://13depository.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">The Thirteenth Depository - a Wheel of Time Blog</a></p><p></p>


created: 2004-04-06 18:41:45
subject: <b>Quote from ACoS about Ishy, Jarna, Alviarin, etc</b>
body:
Here's the quote from ACoS about Ishamael and Jarna.  It's from Alviarin's POV in the prologue <i>Lightnings</i>. <br /><br />&quot;She had risen because Ishamael killed her predececessor in his wrath at discovering what Jarna Malari had begun, yet it had not ended for another two years, after the death of another Amyrlin.  She often wondered whether Elaida had had any hand in the death of that one, Sierin Vayu; certainly the Black Ajah had not.  Jarna had had Tamra Ospenya, the Amyrlin before Sierin, squeezed like a bunch of grapes - obtaining little juice, as it turned out - and made her appear to have died in her sleep, but Alviarin and the other twelve sisters of the Great Council had paid in pain before they could convince Ishamael they had no responsibility for it.&quot;<br /><br />This is a little confused.  She seems to be saying that the Great Council was tortured for Tamra's death.  My problem with concluding that Jarna was also killed for Tamra is that Jarna was killed for what she had <i>begun</i>.  Something that didn't end for <i>another</i> two years until Sierin's death.  I think Jarna was killed for having lucky people killed, and Ishy didn't find out about it for three years.  After he finds out, he kills Jarna, puts Alviarin in command, and the killings continue for two more years until Sierin is killed.<br /><br />Perhaps, the Great Council was punished, because Tamra died without revealing all the details about the Dragon's birth.  Ishy wasn't mad about her death, only the botched job of obtaining key information.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Diomedes <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-04-06 22:43:57
subject: <b>my my you peoples are forgetful</b>
body:
almost throughout the ENTIRE SERIES, the true aim of the Shadow is not to kill the Dragon Reborn, but to turn him to their side. How could none of you remember that?? ishy was not, still isn't, and probably never will be, omnipotent. therefore he was probably terrified that the bumbling idiots of the black ajah would kill him when he was still a babe. it would have been much better for the purpose of turning the dragon to the shadow, to have Tamra and her cronies find the Dragon [i] for them[i/] than to either kill him or waste their own time searching for him when they had very small and/or botched knowledge of the prophecy. see, if the dragon was found, then they could<br /><br />A. kill the amyrlin, instate a pro-black ajah amyrlin, (probably alviarin or some other member of the high council) to start manipulating the dragon.<br />B. allow them to find the dragon, then kidnap him and raise him in shayol ghul.<br />C. allow them to find the dragon, but start covertly manipulating the dragon as soon as possible.<br />D. arrange it so that the amyrlin would unknowinly send sisters of the black ajah on the search for the black ajah, have THEM find the dragon, and do whatever floats their boat with him.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> &quot;I'm the D.O.&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /> &quot;No I am&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rand.gif" border="0" /> &quot;KILL THEM!&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /> &quot;You can't possibly win!&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" />*smirks* &quot;Ya wanna make a bet???&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perrin.gif" border="0" /> *mutters* &quot;stupid axe&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/avi.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/min.gif" border="0" /> &quot;YOU CAN DO IT!&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2004-04-06 22:46:30
subject: <b>forgot something myself</b>
body:
disregard the &quot;if the dragon was found&quot; line of my post, which is just before the A,B,C,D thing<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> &quot;I'm the D.O.&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /> &quot;No I am&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rand.gif" border="0" /> &quot;KILL THEM!&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /> &quot;You can't possibly win!&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" />*smirks* &quot;Ya wanna make a bet???&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perrin.gif" border="0" /> *mutters* &quot;stupid axe&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/avi.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/min.gif" border="0" /> &quot;YOU CAN DO IT!&quot;</font><p></p>


