# w_comment

created: 2004-04-08 05:47:22
subject: <b>I'll have to agree with Moridin_2000</b>
body:
Ishy likes to control the &quot;Dragons&quot;, either real or false, to sow chaos, not pretend to be one himself. <br /><br />He seems to have little or no respect for them, and I can't see him &quot;lowering&quot; himself in this manner.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2004-04-08 15:26:51
subject: <b>Maybe or Maybe not</b>
body:
I kinda agree. I think Ishmael influenced Guaire but i think he was behind the scenes minipulating him. Ishmael is insane but i don't think he would risk himself so much w/o the other forsaken set free. in the books the female forsaken have a habit of pointing out to the male forsaken that a circle of 13 would still be thier demise and i don't think Ishmael would be stupid enough to chance it and the D.O. wouldn't want to chance his only really powerful influence on the world.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br />Red Sox Fan &amp; Yankee Hater<br />kim: it's too cold there to smell<br /><b>Warder to the wonderful, amusing and ever so smart Elayne_Sedai</b><br />Friends don't let friends read Goodkind<br />My mind isn't always in the gutter, it just has VIP access</font><p><a href="http://tinyurl.com/45t6t" target="_blank">Simply Splendid </a></p><p></p>


created: 2004-04-14 05:41:12
subject: <b>Oh ishy was involved...definately</b>
body:
As he said to Rand &quot;when hawkwing sent that army he sealed 2 dooms&quot; etc. He probably didn't lie, cause why lie? If lie why not make it &quot;seal the doom of the world&quot; to scare rand? So i'd assume there's some truth.<br /><br />Believing the father of lies. I'm hopeless. But it MIGHT be a clue RJ left.<br /><br />Anyway, Ishamael's tied up in that. Out plotting, wispering in hawkwing's ear - he would play both sides of the chessboard if he could, the advantages are just so much.<br /><br />Again, no solid evidence....just speculation. &quot;pick it apart&quot;. Perhaps i should add that for my theories &gt;^-^&lt;. Yeah, the &quot;guire was gentled thinng&quot; done it<br /><br />DING! Lightbulb! If ishy WAS guire, he COULDN&quot;T have been captured by those 6 Aes Sedai. Why? The TRUE POWER. Self explanatory


created: 2004-10-06 18:24:49
subject: <b>Uhhhhh...</b>
body:
Drakkus, you are stupid.  Please explain ALL the stuff Ishy does in TEOTW, allegedly your &quot;favorite book&quot;, if he wasn't using the True Power.  Boo yah.


created: 2004-04-05 09:50:55
subject: <b>Which means....</b>
body:
Which means we don't know who it will be. Probably Thom, actually, because he's the one not doing anything right now.<br /><br />'Courage to strengthen, fire to blind, music to daze, iron to bind.'<br /><br />Well, courage is probably Mat, fire could be Rand, music is obviously Thom, and iron could possibly be Perrin. But Mat and Thom are together, and together they have nearly all those things, right? Courauge, fire (Aludra reference?), music, and... well, iron. Combined, iron and fire are cannons.<br /><br />Hmm. But yeah, Mat and Thom together. It'd be weird if Olver went too, though, wouldn't you think?<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Lissa</b><br /><br />A wise old owl sat on an oak,<br />The more he saw the less he spoke;<br />The less he spoke the more he heard;<br />Why aren't we like that wise old bird?<br />--Edward H. Richards</font><p></p>


created: 2004-04-05 11:12:29
subject: <b>mmm Snapey</b>
body:
What?  oh.. Um, btw.. it might be dazzle but I didn't look to make sure.<br /><br />Olver is just in a lot of theories I've seen, since he always obsesses over the game.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Wartherded by Phil Reborn<br /><br />CW</font><p></p>


created: 2004-04-05 11:55:32
subject: <b>yes and no</b>
body:
In tSR Rand is able to hold them off using his sword of fire, so we know that any one way will prevent them from doing whatever they want.  However, I think it might be necessary to combine all four, or at least three of the four, since whoever goes in will have courage, in order to make them do what you want.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sir Jim<br />Lord of Minutia&#8482;<br />King of WoT MB Posts&#8482;<br /><br />Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so.</font><p></p>


created: 2004-04-05 20:16:39
subject: <b>I think it will be Thom and Olver</b>
body:
Don`t really expect any Ta`veren to be involved. <br />My take is that a conversation will arise, while playing the Game, and Thom will decipher Moiraine`s hints. Mat could give pointers on the Finns.<br /><br />With obvious courage, Thom will get firesticks from Aludra and take Olver with him, and they can dazzle the Finns long enough to get Moiraine free. So maybe they won`t need iron. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> And Thom will include music. He could vocally imitate his harp or flute.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2004-04-06 14:06:52
subject: <b>binding a dazed blind 'finn</b>
body:
Any one of these ways could be used. But a combination of them would certainly be crushing to the aelfinn and eelfinn. We saw Rand using fire to blind--the aelfinn covered their eyes at his flaming sword. Whoever goes into Finnland would have to be brave to go there (courage) thus surprising the 'finns; carrying a flaming anything (match, fireball, sword, etc) would cause them to cover their eyes, thereby almost unable to do anything; making music, perhaps with a flute or a harp, would daze them and added to fire would make them completely impotent; &quot;iron to bind&quot; sounds like using iron to tie a finn or more up (a chain?)--in our legends and myths, iron drains energy from a fairy or elf and can quickly kill so using iron chains to tie the finns up would take away their ability to later escape and exacting revenge.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Gaeran Amaconde<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />Grand Historian at the Court of the Sun<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />One of Those Chosen to Bring the Light<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" />Master of Graendal's Revels<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" />&quot;If sometimes our dreams come true, what of our nightmares?&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-04-06 17:47:27
subject: <b>Mat has to go</b>
body:
Does Thom know the language? Otherwise I think Mat will have to go with the rescue party. I don't think it's possible to find Moiraine without cooperation from the Eelfinn and Aelfinn.


created: 2004-04-06 18:00:53
subject: <b>I think Mat will go there....</b>
body:
he has a history with them. And Thom will almost certainly go, Min had a viewing of him pulling Mioraine's blue stone out of a fire, which probably means he's going to rescue her from the 'finns.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I am cool, are you? <br /><br />The kicker of the seals <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <br />The flame that burned down Tar Valon <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />My arse is the Amyrlin Seat</font><p></p>


created: 2004-04-07 00:38:55
subject: <b>For t.neo</b>
body:
Thom doesn't need to know the language. Rand didn't and he was able to get his answers. Some Finn can speak a rough version of the common tongue.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;These guys are special... These are crack soldiers... They are everywhere&#8230;yes, they really have us by our balls here&#8230; Can you get us out of here?&#8221;<br />Zarqawi about 3/504 PIR</font><p></p>


created: 2004-04-07 14:38:50
subject: <b>I agree</b>
body:
I agree with this theory and with Jim and Gaeran said.  Maybe the whole point of the rhyme is just to tell you this: <br /><br />a) you'd better be courageous, cause it's going to get dangerous in the tower<br />b) They have sensitive eyes and ears, so bright light and loud noises are a must<br />c) You'd better use something like iron shackles if you're going to tie them up, cause rope ain't enough.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Dude. Is that you or an axe murder?</font><p></p>


created: 2004-04-08 05:31:48
subject: <b>Not much to add, really</b>
body:
One thing that should be remembered is that the Finns are &quot;traders&quot;. Answers or wishes in exchange for memories, and possibly more in the case of the Aelfinn.<br /><br />As for speculating on who will go in, it appears Mat has been set-up to do this, with his prior encounters, and the foreshadowing of his desire to get another chance at them. It should be kept in mind, too, that Mat always considers his father as the best trader in the Two Rivers, saying on more than one occasion that no one ever got the better end of the bargain when dealing with his da. And of course, Mat thinks of himself in this way too, but he has been left with the greasy end of the stick twice now when dealing with these folk. He has a score to settle, to say the least.<br /><br />I agree that not every way will be necessary to &quot;beat&quot; the Finns. You just need to be the better &quot;horse trader.&quot;<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2004-04-08 09:11:38
subject: <b>i noticed</b>
body:
interestingly, Brigitte tells Perrin outside the Tower of Ghenji<br /><br />&quot;'Courage to strengthen, fire to blind, music to daze, iron to bind.'&quot;.<br /><br />that's in chapter 28 of TSR.<br /><br />however, in LoC, Olver asks Mat:<br /><br />&quot; ''Courage to strengthen, fire to blind, music to dazZLe, iron to bind. Mat, why do we say that? There is no fire, no music and no iron.&quot;<br /><br />thus both Daze and Dazzle appear in the books.  Maybe the use of Dazzle by Olver is just a corruption over time, whilst the more knowledgeable Brigitte has the right line.<br /><br />


created: 2004-04-08 10:25:01
subject: <b>Uhhh...</b>
body:
I don't believe that more than one person will be able to do this... Think about it... Rand, Mat, and Moraine all went in about the same time but they never saw each other... Unless something special happens when several people enter at the exact same time... wheeloftimefan<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Just another post by<br />SN J-Whitt USN<br /><br />http://www.nationstates.net/whitt-ville</font><p></p>


created: 2004-04-08 21:40:14
subject: <b>It might be different...</b>
body:
when entering the Tower.  The rules might be different than they were for the doorways.  Other than that, good point.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Wartherded by Phil Reborn<br /><br />CW</font><p></p>


created: 2004-04-11 22:36:05
subject: <b>Maybe</b>
body:
I think that this theory is correct.....sort of.  Whilst I do NOT think that a whole gaggle of Randfriends need to go on some co-ordinated rescue mission, I think that more than one will be neccessary.  Rand goes in with his sword of fire, yet he does not (I think) get any mondo-special treatment from the Finns.  (Covering their eyes and qualing is not on par with coughing up directions on how to rescue Moiraine {who may in fact be Cyndane<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/loial.gif" border="0" />.  That would indicate that just one of the elements is not enough to force the Finns into submission.  Still a good theory.


created: 2004-04-20 16:52:04
subject: <b>Mat and Thom for sure!</b>
body:
Mat has a score to settle w/the finns since book four and Thom has been &quot;prophesized&quot; to rescue Morraine.  It's almost a fool's bet to go against them.  And wherever Mat goes, so goes Olver (who's also obssessed(sp) w/the game).  The only wild card is Perrin.  He was also given instructions by Brigitte on how to beat the finns, but I just can't believe his party is going to have anything to do w/the rescue.  <br /><br />Good theory!


created: 2004-04-25 14:38:45
subject: <b>I think this is pretty close...</b>
body:
I think there isn't much doubt that they will find a way in, (who though, I'm not fully certain yet... it may be someone we don't expect... but it seems likely Thom will, what with Min's viewing and all.) but to me it seems like that isn't a high objective for the group. So, if it happens, I think it'll be accidentally, probably involving some Tav'eren craziness...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">The Big Pointy One<br />Warrior of the Trees<br />...from some other place, anyways.</font><p></p>


created: 2004-04-28 22:12:53
subject: <b>just a thought</b>
body:
Isn't the tower made of iron?  If it is maybe the tower is some sort of prison for Eelfinn and Aelfinn. I would assume someone breaks the laws in their land. just a thought


created: 2004-05-30 22:22:56
subject: <b>Maybe...</b>
body:
Maybe they need the Iron to bind each other together. Shackling each other together so when they step through... whatever they might use... that they stick together.<br /><br />Just a thought


created: 2007-03-13 08:17:30
subject: <b>Voted for yes...</b>
body:
But I think it will be easier with all of them.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /> Carai an Caldazar! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Warder to Model_02<br /><br />Hyv&#228; Suomi!!! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/w00t.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Taking responsibility takes all the joy out of life, and drains a man to dust.  -Mat Cauthon<br /><br />Never kiss a girl whose brothers have knifescars.          -Mat Cauthon</font><p></p>


created: 2007-04-23 04:46:00
subject: <b>the hell with that</b>
body:
we all make theories with what Jordan gives us, WHY would they need fire iron and music, WHY does it have to be mat tom olver? why don't one of the wises visit the tower in T'A'R and just dream moraine out of it?


created: 2007-07-17 00:09:24
subject: <b>hmm</b>
body:
Well thus the line &quot;...when they realize theres no way to win withouut breaking the rules&quot; this could mean Mat breaking the rules by returning to the (Aelfinn?) whichever gateway only works once. or it could refer to Mat taking more people in that it said was allowed. Or it could be the courage, fire, music, iron thing. <br />possibly all 3 but i doubt it<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> Shara is actually inhabited by bannanas <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /> The Band of the Red Hand is made of Ninjas like Mat<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /><br />Narg+Bela= Nela!<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/w00t.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /> ;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bela.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-04-05 09:03:59
subject: <b>Green + Red Parallels</b>
body:
Green = Military Science. Military training in the academic sense (logistics, advanced tactics whatever) is usually kept apart from the true sciences but it should be included all the same.<br /><br />The Red Ajah has always represented to me the large majority of conservative people who prefer the &quot;status Quo&quot; and may resort to force to keep it that way. Their peers have always ridiculed the greatest thinkers through the ages, it is very rare for someone's genius to be recognised in his or her own lifetime.<br /><br />It is the reds that represent the resistance to change that are prevalent in any academic fields, but it is interesting to note that these people also provide the &quot;consciousness&quot; to any sort of academic field (how far is too far). In the far-reaching changes we are seeing in the books it is easy for us to think of them in the &#8220;ultra conservative&#8221; role. But in times of less turbulent times they would be considered the voice of reason or social conscious of the university picture represented here.<br /><br />So I would put them in the social-physiologists role because all they are is the vocal end of the silent majority who fear change and prefer the status quo and stability of their forefathers.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Don&#8217;t overlook my butt; I work out all the time and reaping burns multiple calories.</font><p></p>


created: 2004-04-05 12:50:30
subject: <b>Adding to Boli</b>
body:
I agree that the Greens are the military science side. They are the ones that study the tactics, logistics, strategy, and politics of war (not in order of importance) .<br /><br />I have no idea about the Reds though.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;These guys are special... These are crack soldiers... They are everywhere&#8230;yes, they really have us by our balls here&#8230; Can you get us out of here?&#8221;<br />Zarqawi about 3/504 PIR</font><p></p>


created: 2004-04-05 15:48:19
subject: <b>reds</b>
body:
hi, reds are feminist studies majors.  or at least the p.c.u. stereotype (if you haven't seen the movie, then just think uber-militant, sarcastic (and wrong) personification of feminists.  well 99.99% wrong.).  i am a female man lover, but more of a woman lover, so no offence meant.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;It's ridiculous to suggest that a team could go through a season in our league without losing. It's comical, just comical.&quot; Alex Ferguson 27th September 2002<br /><br />gooner...red and white army...<br /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gimli.gif" border="0" /> my soulmate<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/clown.gif" border="0" /> my nemesis</font><p></p>


created: 2004-04-05 17:33:36
subject: <b>I have had a similar thought for a long time</b>
body:
Part of the reason I considered this possibilty was that I was looking for an explaination for the portal stones (why the same colors and current Ajahs). Perhaps the ajah colors are based on the idenifying colors for groups in the past...<br /><br />When I looked at I saw slightly different groupings, partly because I looked at it as jobs rathers than areas of study<br /><br />Blue - (this is the one I had the most trouble with) <br />Brown - Librarians, teachers, researchers.<br />Gray - ambassadors, etc (foreign affairs)<br />Green - soldiers<br />Red - police (the reds see them selves protecting the people from the dangers of men who can channel. I see this as a step away from protecting the people from all dangers)<br />White - judges, lawyers (discussion of laws and morality)<br />


created: 2004-04-05 17:50:09
subject: <b>I don't know...</b>
body:
I like the idea for the most part... but i feel like the reason that the Reds and Blues argue with each other so much is because they're two different ends of the same field...<br /><br />So my feeling would be that the Blue Ajah are the very liberal wing of Political Science (liberal because of their views on men who can channel, because they plan to be there for the DR, etc.) and the Red Ajah are the very conservative, highly reactionary branch of Political Science.<br /><br />As a result, the Blue and the Red are almost like political parties within the WT, which would partially explain the sort of hatred that each shows for the other as well as the inferiority complex the Red has currently over the success of the previous Blue Amyrlins and the failure of the previous Red Amyrlins... like good presidents and bad presidents, etc.<br /><br />As for the Green, Military Science makes sense, I guess.


created: 2004-04-05 18:13:10
subject: <b>The Reds...</b>
body:
are those students that join the F.B.I. or CIA after being recruted...or they are like ROTC...maybe...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>you know you can't leave Wotmania. It's kinda like herpes, you can just never really get rid of it.</i><br />Kit <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /></font><p><a href="http://www.cbgxtra.com/" target="_blank">Comics Buyer's Guide XTRA</a></p><p></p>


created: 2004-04-05 18:32:09
subject: <b>Not like the uni I went to.</b>
body:
Where are the wild parties and all the sex?<br /><br />Besides that, yeah it is actually.....<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-04-05 23:02:46
subject: <b>Sir Lancelittle:</b>
body:
Could the Blues be politicians, lobbyists, special interest groups?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> Linda Sedai <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Proud member of the Embroiderer's Guild of the White Tower<br /><br /><b><font color="red">FAQ admin</font></b> </font>'cos the FAQ is where it's at.<br /><br /><b>Currently working on:</b> my 70th FAQ<p><a href="http://13depository.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">The thirteenth depository : A Wheel of Time blog</a></p><p></p>


created: 2004-04-06 00:51:28
subject: <b>Reds not so bad</b>
body:
I often finding myself hating the reds (as i assume that you are supposed to, to some extent) and RJ has set up those that are tolerent and able to adapt to new situations as the overall winners. However, when i think about the reds i dont think that most of them are all that bad. Theyre obviously very agressive with their work, and they value it as very important. But this certainly has parallels in the real world. Police that use deadly force is certainly one, and vigilante justice has been known to occur against those that are guilty but get off. Obviously its unfair that men that cant help channeling get &quot;killed&quot;, but under the utilitarian values they just have to take one for the team. The reds that we see in the books are obviously not the only ones and certainly among the more ruthless. The trouble lies in the fact that if reds succeed then nothing happens but if they fail then the world could be torn apart. So i think that they got jealous and started going out and finding them and setting up some to give them more respect. Its a self defeating system. Oh well im rambling now but i think that there probably not that bad and most likely are law enforcement


created: 2004-04-06 03:23:28
subject: <b>Reds...</b>
body:
My theory is that its reverse phsycology. They want men to love them so they push them away. A whole ajah devoted to getting sex in different means. What does the color red mean? Fiery passion. The only reason they dont have warders is because they are into bondage not bonding. Everyone knows what I'm Talking about.<br /><br />P.S. I mean no offense to anyone who might take this offensively.<br /><br />P.S.S. Don't be so sensitive.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Roses are red <br />Violets are blue <br />I'm schizophrenic <br />And so am I <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/crazy.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smackhead.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-04-06 06:35:16
subject: <b>If Reds were at a university</b>
body:
they'd have to be in one of three jobs. cafeteria workers, janitors, or the freakin parking meter maids. (im a red hater!). greens would definitely be the sports teams (sports = deathless war). blue are those political groups: Asian student assoc, latino stud. assoc., gay and lesbian etc.etc. as for the others. browns could be professors, or even the librarians shushing me when i'm on wotmania.com. yellow ajah might be the med students? or the student health center (altho i didn't see any sniffing). i give up on gray and white tho. *sigh*


created: 2004-04-06 17:55:35
subject: <b>Hmmm...</b>
body:
Whites are the philosophy majors. Grays are the political science majors. Blues are the special interest groups. Yellows are the health sciences majors. Greens are hmmm....the homicidal polygamous ladies?...or something *runs away from all the green fans. I don't hate them! I don't hate them! Don't kill me!*  Browns are the historians and archealogists and all that kind of thing. Reds...they are thos ***** teachers we all love to hate. Like my math teacher. I hate my math teacher.  Ok I do hate reds. They annoy me. Especially Elaida. She's an idiot.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I am cool, are you? <br /><br />The kicker of the seals <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <br />The flame that burned down Tar Valon <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />My arse is the Amyrlin Seat</font><p></p>


created: 2004-04-06 21:59:02
subject: <b>Reds and Blues</b>
body:
actually, the reds and blues are far more similar than any member of either ajah would care to reciprocate. they are basically both int he field of &quot;political science or social science&quot; just with the divider or Blues=Democrats-liberals (for instance: siuan &quot;we must protect the dragon from those would would blah-blah-blah&quot;- you get the point) with the Reds=Republicans-conservationists (for instance: elaida &quot;we must protect the world from the dragon- an evil only tolerable because the alternative is worse)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> &quot;I'm the D.O.&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /> &quot;No I am&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rand.gif" border="0" /> &quot;KILL THEM!&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /> &quot;You can't possibly win!&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" />*smirks* &quot;Ya wanna make a bet???&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perrin.gif" border="0" /> *mutters* &quot;stupid axe&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/avi.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/min.gif" border="0" /> &quot;YOU CAN DO IT!&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2004-04-07 10:38:27
subject: <b>ayup</b>
body:
Great theory! The White Tower is an institution that makes sense to us when we think about it in terms of academia. Anyway, it was an entertaining read.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/clap.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lan.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/clap.gif" border="0" /><br />Nynaeve and Lan!<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-04-08 02:05:41
subject: <b>Post doc?</b>
body:
The Kin are not emeritus faculty - they're drop outs!  You know, people who can't hack it, so they go get a actual paying job...like being a CEO...<br /><br />I guess first-year newbie sisters are post-docs, or else Theodrin and Faolain are quasi post-docs before Egwene named them AS.  You know, people with tremendous credentials who get paid bupkus... But at least they aren't grad students any more.  A bit more autonomy.<br /><br />Blues could be any major at all - they just have a political focus.  Same thing with Reds.  Maybe one's the future FBI, and the other the CIA - either way, they don't communicate and view the other with tremendous suspicion, despite the fact that they're supposed to be on the same side (the whole serving-humanity thing that seems to have been traded in for keeping ourselves in power idea - BOTH Reds and Blues are guilty - i.e., the Siuan-humiliates-Gareth-over-a-now-dead-Murandian-thing).<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Live as if you were living for the second time and had acted as wrongly the first time as you are about to act now.  -VF</font><p></p>


created: 2004-04-08 13:59:51
subject: <b>Very close on a lot of points...</b>
body:
And that's why the Tower needs to change.  In the analogy described above, the &quot;Univeristy&quot; exisits merely to perpetuate itself.  In the Real World, the vast majority of students earn a bachelors or masters degree, and go out into the world to put it to work.  They supplement the book learning with practical experience and actually make society function.  The connotation of &quot;Ivory Tower&quot; is rarely complimentary - it implies a lack of contact with reality and how the world really functions.  Many people in the fields taught at universities are contemptuoous of their &quot;colleagues&quot; in the academic world, who deal primarily in abstractions and speculations.  Remember the saying, &quot;Those who can - do.  Those who can't - teach.&quot;  Very few professional sports coaches or managers were among the elite players of their game - many in fact, failed to make a go of it professionally and turned to teaching the game they had mastered intellectually and not physically.  I always was suspicious of economics and business professors - if they know so much about money, why don't they go out and earn some themselves?  I imagine that altruism does account for some of them, but I have a hard time believing that enough &quot;experts&quot; in money matters willingly accept much smaller salaries out of the goodness of their hearts to staff  the business and economics departments of the thousands of schools in the USA alone!<br />  Back to the point, the &quot;University&quot; in the White Tower analogy produces no doctors, no lawyers, no politicians, no engineers, no military officers, just academics and theorists in the fields.  Few Yellows actually seem to set up shop and work on Healing as many people as they can - instead they live on a fortified island in a city several days journey from any country's borders (and since once countries occupied all the land around Tar Valon, and faded due to a lack of population, it is safe to assume that a VERY small fraction of the people for whom the Aes Sedai arrogantly claim responsibility live close enough to get a life threatening illness cured).  An army set out to save Malkier, but why aren't there always sisters stationed along the Blightborder to protect against Trolloc attacks?  Why doesn't the Gray Ajah maintain an embassy or consulate in every capital and near every national border to try and head off wars before and as they begin, rather than the ones they stumble across (Merana was in place to negotiate the 5th Treaty of Falme &quot;by chance;&quot; so if she hadn't been there, the War would have gone on until some Gray could show up to break off hostilities). If male channelers are such a threat, why do Red sisters stay in the one place on earth any man who can channel will avoid?  Because all these &quot;PhD's&quot; want is to engage in their academic (which also means irrelevant) pursuits and &quot;university&quot; politics, without having to be responsible for the consequences of decisions made in the heart of the struggle of day to day living.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


created: 2004-04-09 19:48:47
subject: <b>Interesting</b>
body:
I agree with the theory though thankfully my undergarduate school didn't have a graduate program so I missed out on the bad parts of being a novice (mostly) I do agree that a lot of people in universities need to get to the real world some but don't forget that any real change comes at some point from those in the univerisites at least at some point.<br />Now I am biased as I am working on a PhD in biochemistry currently but studying the way the body works and the way the world works in other disiplines is the only way to generate new drugs new understandings and new ways of war, and bussiness models (to include other disiplines).  The human genome would not have been decoded without the years of work of academics.<br /><br />Now the examples you use are correct the yellows do need to go out and become the wisdoms of various towns as well as study healing, the grays should have an embasy in every major city and the greens should be attached to the various countries in the blight.  The blues should help in the embassies of the grays since they have the best eyes and ears network in the world.  I have to say I do not like the reds that much but they should travel more and perhaps test every male child born to see if he might develop the spark or perhaps study ways to cut it off permanently before it manifests itself so that the men didn't have to be killed.<br /><br />I like the idea as the blues as democracts and the reds as republicans, anyone know if the parites have colors attached to them?  Then of course I am a democract, if I was a republican I guess I wouldn't find that connection appealing...


created: 2004-04-09 20:17:55
subject: <b>Reds and Greens</b>
body:
Agree that the Greens would be Military science majors, I can also see them being the professional athletes.<br />Reds, I can see going into forensic science, forensic law, criminal behaviorists and the like. I also liked what other people said about reds and blues being different sides of the same coin. <br /><br />NaCl(what would call people who switch majors all the time?)H2O <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Any comments on my photos appreciated</font><p><a href="http://saltwater.smugmug.com/" target="_blank">My photos, a work in progress</a></p><p></p>


created: 2004-04-10 07:42:03
subject: <b>dacole</b>
body:
It's true that universities do some good, and so does the Tower, however, when push comes to shove, real people have to try to make academic theories work.  In the last few centuries, the majority of discoveries and so on were the result of business investments or government sponsored research.  For years scholars believed the world was round, but it took a guy with a government grant to go discover America.  People came to America looking for resources to exploit, not a new land to explore and catalogue.  Basically, academics make a living by knowing things and telling people what the know.  When something comes along that undercuts that &quot;knowledge&quot; they oppose it viciously.  Galileo's worst opposition wasn't the church, it was other astronomers whose knowledge - the only commodity they had to sell - was suddenly obsolete.  Academics don't go looking to expand their ignorance, and like everyone else, mostly seek to confirm what they believe.  Discoveries are made because there is a profit in it, or because someone wants to crack into the academic elite by challenging the &quot;experts&quot; and their catechism.  That behavior is demonstrated by the Aes Sedai, especially in Lord of Chaos, when they vehemently oppose any experimentation by Nynaeve in trying to Heal stilling, and when Aviendha does what they think is impossible in PoD - namely unweaving a gateway.  The point is, if someone does something better than Aes Sedai can, or achieves something none of them can imagine trying, then deep down inside, they have to admit that they aren't superior to everyone else.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


created: 2004-04-12 15:33:32
subject: <b>yup</b>
body:
Browns = History! and archeology, anthropology, english, all that good stuff.<br /><br />Greens = definitely ROTC, maybe criminal justice a bit. <br /><br />Cool theory.


created: 2004-04-13 11:13:06
subject: <b>Cannoli</b>
body:
Aren`t you glad that Egwene has the things you deplore on the agenda for change. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />I`m still waiting for you to acknowledge that she is striving to put into practice the things you want-becoming a part of the world, marriage, family, etc.  The new order of Novices will be like Nynaeve, Elayne and yes, Egwene.<br /><br />On topic- I like the Theory comparing Academe with the WT.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2004-04-14 17:14:06
subject: <b>What's the Point?</b>
body:
I really don't understand what the point of the post is.  So what if the tower is like a big university?  I really don't see why that matters at all.


created: 2004-04-15 14:24:13
subject: <b>Help with the &quot;Colleges&quot;</b>
body:
The Green Ajah reminds me of Military Science-ROTC<br /><br />The Red-&quot;Women's Studies&quot; - I Really can't imagine being in the Red Ajah...I don't hate men, just wonder about them sometimes.  They are too much fun to learn about.<br /><br />Enjoyed your theory and good luck in the tests.<br /><br />


created: 2004-04-17 10:55:40
subject: <b>jofraz</b>
body:
I have yet to see any evidence that she in fact wants to do any of this stuff.  The one good thing was her intention to abolish the Oaths, but she back-tracked on that as soon as her mentor-of-the-day expressed a negative opinion.  Her plan for the Kin is to maintain a structure that forces grown women to live as untrustworthy children, and keep rules intended for living undercover lives!  The Kin deplore marriage, children and relationships with men. They are critical of Elayne's pregnancy, even though she is not and never has been a Kinswoman, so I highly doubt they will modify their rules when they brought into the Tower's orbit.  Not only that, women considered competant enough to be Amyrlin or a Sitter will have to retire and take orders from people whose only qualification is four centuries of being a peddler and never trying to improve her ability with saidar or make important decisions on which lives and nations rest (the Kin avoid notice, so they probably stay away from any sort of political involvement.  The Kin's authority structure is exceeded in stupidity only by the Tower's strength hierarchy.  Not only that, women who have been promised a new chance to be Aes Sedai are going to have to settle for remaining Kinswomen and inferior to the Aes Sedai.  If Elayne and Rand are still alive when she has to become a Kinswoman or die, will she have to get a divorce and stop sleeping with him?  Easy decision for Egwene, since Gawyn will be two centuries in his grave by then.<br />If Egwene actually cares about the real world, why hasn't she surrendered to Elaida, so the united Tower can set things right?  Because Elaida will be harsh?  Well considering the mess the WT has let the world get in while they were distracted by the rebellion, the rebel sisters deserve some punishment!  Egwene (who I am rooting for by the way - I'm just rooting for her to become a better person, too) is letting herself be influenced by Siuan's (unfounded, as New Spring shows) old grudge against Elaida.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


created: 2004-04-26 17:46:55
subject: <b>Hmm..</b>
body:
I still think this is more of a good analogy rather than a theory per se. It's not a long shot from 'studying the One Power' to 'studying physics/logic/other boring stuff'. Still, good job.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Granting you and I argue<br />If you get the better of me<br />Are you right and I wrong?<br />If I get the better of you<br />Am I right and you wrong?<br />Or are we both right?<br />Or are we both wrong?<br />Since you and I cannot know<br />We all live in darkness</font><p></p>


created: 2004-07-28 08:16:52
subject: <b>hmmm</b>
body:
i think the reds are business students.... cut-throat and selfish.... and evil =)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;i've always known! Somewhere deep down inside me....where....where the special places, inside...... forever!!&quot;  -Cpt. Murphy of Sealab</font><p></p>


created: 2004-09-08 17:45:36
subject: <b>First Age to Third Age</b>
body:
I think our present is the first age so The White tower may in fact have been based on a memory of universities! Oh the wild parties and sex well you know...between the Green sisters and their warders i think it makes up for part of that<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Masria Sedai of the Brown Ajah<br />The Zaftig Cat Girl<br /><br />http://serpentinepoet.proboards107.com/index.cgi</font><p></p>


created: 2007-09-19 11:54:21
subject: <b>green and red</b>
body:
in this day and age i would see the greens beings the sports department and the reds being the womens lib. activists.


created: 2004-04-15 17:09:22
subject: <b>Glad somebody said it</b>
body:
Ever since I read the bit on the sealing of the bore in the Big White Book, I've thought that this was how Rand would seal up the Dark One's prison--link with women and do what Lews Therin would have done in the first place.


created: 2004-04-15 18:37:51
subject: <b>Rand is the Lord of Chaos.</b>
body:
That is just about the only thing I agree with.<br /><br />IMO, those trying to steal the Seals from Dobraine and Bashere wanted them, to prevent Rand from breaking the Seals. The reason being that with the Seals broken, the Bore will begin healing itself, such as our wounds heal themselves once the rubble is cleaned out. There will be no more patches, until the 2nd Age comes around again.<br /><br />IMHO again, Rand is planning to break the Seals very shortly, whether before the Seanchan Treaty or after, we don`t know. Cadsuane is aware of this and don`t know what her advice will be, but Rand doesn`t care. This all occurs in CoT, from the POVs of both. Rand even thinks he doesn`t have much time left re his channeling sickness.<br /><br />Again, IMO, the LB will be &quot;the world not done with battle&quot;, and Rand breaking the Seals and spilling his blood at Shayol Ghul will be &quot;the great battle done&quot;.<br /><br />The fighting will take place at all the hot spots around the world-Caemlyn, Tar Valon, Tear, Illian, Altara, Arad Doman, Perrin`s battle with the Shaido, etc. The work of the Forsaken has created a world in chaos, and the Trollocs, Fades, Dreadlords and Forsaken, plus DFs will be there to try to defeat them. <br /><br />I believe the Borderlands were emptied out by Dark Forces whispering in ears.<br /><br />We are going to see some mighty battles.<br /><br />BTW, this is the reason RJ has not settled any of these<br />problems, and Rand appeared only a little in CoT. He has to get all these ducks in a row before the LB arrives.<br /><br />Knife of Dreams should be a VERY dark book.<br /><br />This sounds like a Theory. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2004-04-15 20:11:51
subject: <b>Bore not resealed but prison is Remade</b>
body:
I agree with you for the most part but Fel never really said that rand should reseal the bore. He said that the Dark One's prision had to be whole when the next age came about. Not that the bore would be resealed. He was actualy against the idea that it would be resealed but more of remade. I have yet to see a theory that totaly incoroprates this idea.


created: 2004-04-15 21:49:28
subject: <b>hmmm....</b>
body:
Your comments about the DO &quot;feeling&quot; the seals reminds me of Rand feeling the soft points of his shield in LoC.  I wonder if there is a connection?<br /><br />Also, I do not think that the Bore will seal itself once the seals are removed.  If it could, why wouldn't it have closed up in during the War of Power?<br /><br />In my mind, Fel's comments about clearing away the rubble refer to Rand's need to completely destory the DO's old (ruptured) prison while simultaneously erecting a new one around the old.


created: 2004-04-16 00:39:49
subject: <b>interesting but...</b>
body:
I haven't seen anything really new except the thought that Rand's chaos is allowing a weakness in the seals and I'm not sure I agree with the &quot;Chaos Theory.&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />  If the seals were weakened by chaos, then why did they not get very weak during the Breaking?  Obviously there was a LOT more chaos then than now.  Also, I kept getting confused as to what was supposed to bring order.  Was saidar the order or was it just an order to everything?  If saidar could be used to strengthen the seals, why was it not done as soon as Moiraine or others realize they were weak?  Lastly, I believe the theories that state the DO's prison must be whole again when the Age of Legends rolls around again.  A simple patch with men and women would not take care of this.  Anyways, that was a nice example of why Rand is the Lord of Chaos.  I liked that bit and hadn't caught that when I read it in the books.  Let the Lord of Chaos rule.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;The reason I won't tell people though is that I am enjoying watching them squirm entirely too much.&quot; - Robert Jordan</font><p></p>


created: 2004-04-16 00:45:44
subject: <b>killing Rand too soon?</b>
body:
I do agree that men and women will need to work together to either temporarily or permanently seal off the DO, but here's what I don't get:<br /><br />The BA were given orders to seek out and kill &quot;lucky&quot; (i.e., DR-potential) infants.  How does this square with the idea that the DO needs Rand to live to &quot;just the right moment&quot; when Chaos reigns supreme?  Can't be the DO only figured this out after Ba'alzamon/Ishamael tried to kill Rand at the end of TGH.  Rahvin also tried to balefire Rand, and yet the DO reflects that &quot;Rahvin served well&quot;. All right, that last part is a stretch, Rahvin was fighting for his life, so maybe the DO is, um, cutting Rahvin's memory some slack.  <br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Live as if you were living for the second time and had acted as wrongly the first time as you are about to act now.  -VF</font><p></p>


created: 2004-04-16 13:43:46
subject: <b>Response to questions</b>
body:
First&#8230;I want to thank you all for you comments.<br /><br />To jofraz, I don&#8217;t disagree with anything you said nor do I think my theory disagrees with them either&#8230; in regards to your comments on my theory&#8230; I&#8217;m not so sure that the Last Battle will take place the way you said so&#8230;and we know why the Border Lands are empty&#8230;their rulers reaffirmed a pact back in Winter&#8217;s Heart.  They are also looking for the Dragon Reborn. <br />Let&#8217;s hope that KoD will be dark&#8230;it&#8217;d be a nice change of pace.<br /><br />To ravenkiller, I agree too.  I&#8217;m just theorizing that remaking the prison and sealing the bore will all be done together.  Male and Female channelers working in concert.  How this exactly occurs&#8212;either remaking the Prison or sealing the bore in a way that seals the DO outside of the Pattern is still very much in debate.  Thank you for your observation.<br /><br />To vegebcissa, As stated in the very beginning of my theory that I was using previous MB post and theories.  I added my own comments and reorganized it in a fashion that I thought would better present the idea I was trying to get across to the reader.  It would be nice to have an all inclusive, exact, iron-clad,  &#8220;can&#8217;t possibly be anything else but this answer&#8221; theory.  However, as we all know Rome (or Tar Valon) wasn&#8217;t built in a day.  Every theory is a step closer and even if it is absolutely wrong&#8230;it&#8217;s one less possibility we need to think about.  Now to answer your question about why the seals were not weakened during the Breaking&#8230; because the Dragon was no longer in the Pattern. LTT took himself out shortly after the Breaking started.  This goes back to why I feel the DO needs the Dragon (The Lord of Chaos) in the Pattern.  <br />Yes, Saidar is the missing component in the Seals to bring Order to Strengthen.  Why couldn&#8217;t they be used afterwards to strengthen the Seals, because they were already made and set.  In some ways, the seals are just the focus for the bore&#8230;let&#8217;s not forget that little aspect.<br />I&#8217;m not sure that it will be a simple patch&#8230;but something much more.  In essence, I don&#8217;t disagree with you&#8230; I don&#8217;t know how they will do it&#8230;either resealing it perfectly places the DO outside the pattern or that they recreate his prison&#8230;in whatever form they decide.<br />Lastly, thanks&#8230;great questions.<br /><br />To comet_sedai,  The DO absolutely needs the Dragon Reborn in the Pattern.  He needs Rand to do certain things and set certain events in motion.  Killing Rand will only guarantee that the Wheel of Time will not be broken and that he will remain where he is at. <br />The order to kill &#8220;lucky&#8221; men was given by the BA &#8230;and we all know what happened to the Council of the Black Ajah  after Ishmael found out about that little faux pas &#8230;.if you listen carefully enough&#8230;you can still hear the echo of their cries reverberating through the Pattern.  <br />Did he REALLY try to kill Rand at the end of the TGH&#8230;or&#8230;was it Ishy trying to get a few of the prophesies fulfilled?  Making sure that the Dragon had been Reborn and that Rand was in fact him.  <br />Rahvin did a good job&#8230;but his thirst for power has always been his weakness&#8230;.and he is no longer in the Pattern and did serve the DO well, unlike Asmodean&#8230;but we the readers know that he more likely didn&#8217;t want to share any power with Rand &#8230;in case the DO did turn Rand to the dark side.  One less competitor to be Nae&#8217;blis was more likely his reasoning&#8230;<br /><br />Once again&#8230;thank you to the commenters.  I appreciate you questions.<br /><br /><br />-JAGW <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">We really swing in the <font color="green">Green</font>...<br />-JAGW <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> --Just Another swingin'...errr...sword and never in the <font color="green">Lime</font>light.<br /><br />It ain't easy being <font color="green">Green</font>... <i>--Kermit the Frog</i></font><p></p>


created: 2004-04-16 15:16:42
subject: <b>BA order?</b>
body:
Hmmm, I always thought the BA was punished for killing Tamra - you think they were also punished for trying to kill the babies?  Very interesting.  As for hearing cries echoing through the Pattern...erm, I think that's just the DO playing shuffleboard to pass the time <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Live as if you were living for the second time and had acted as wrongly the first time as you are about to act now.  -VF</font><p></p>


created: 2004-04-16 17:07:28
subject: <b>BA order...</b>
body:
<font size="-1"><b>Hmmm, I always thought the BA was punished for killing Tamra - you think they were also punished for trying to kill the babies? Very interesting. As for hearing cries echoing through the Pattern...erm, I think that's just the DO playing shuffleboard to pass the time </b></font><br /><br />No... I don't think they were punished for killing Tamra at all.  Why would Ishmael (or the Shadow) care if they offed an Amrylin or two....??? It's probably happened a few times in their 3000 year history. Tamara was nothing to the Shadow....and besides they (the BA) covered their tracks in her death... It looked like natural causes.  In fact, I would suspect they needed to kill her... Tamara was on to something...and they wanted to know what that something was...it was only through kidnapping and torturing her that they even find out that the Dragon had been Reborn. So, in the eyes of the Shadow...at least with the information we've been provided...they had to kill her...the BA reveled themselves to her to find out... so, the next logical step was to kill Tamara.<br /><br />However, I do believe that they were absolutely punished for trying to take out the DR.  I'm not sure exactly where...at the moment...but I believe a PoV from Alviarin states this very fact.  Besides, this would screw up all their (Shadow's) plans...of trying to turn him to the Shadow or for Rand freeing the DO from his prison.  Once again...the DR has to be in the Pattern and killing him too soon or too late only ensures that the Wheel of Time will keep turning as is...and everything will continue to be cyclic.<br /><br />-JAGW <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">We really swing in the <font color="green">Green</font>...<br />-JAGW <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> --Just Another swingin'...errr...sword and never in the <font color="green">Lime</font>light.<br /><br />It ain't easy being <font color="green">Green</font>... <i>--Kermit the Frog</i></font><p></p>


created: 2004-04-16 18:31:25
subject: <b>Agree with some on all.</b>
body:
First I agree that Rand is the Lord of Chaos.  I also agree that there is a timing issue for everything to fall correctly for each side to win, and that both women and men will be needed to accomplish the task. (i.e. Avienda, undoing a weave thread by thread).<br />I do not agree with the people who say that the bore will heal itself.  If that were so the AOL AS wouldn&#8217;t have had to seal it.<br />I do not know who posted the theory that the weave that Lanfear and Ishmael used to bore into the DO prison would need to be un-woven and the prison would be closed.  But that is the theory I agree with.  <br />According to Fel, the prison must be whole for when the age that comes around the prison would need to be whole so it could be bored into again.<br />


created: 2004-04-16 21:13:46
subject: <b>Babies AND Tamra</b>
body:
Tamra's death DID result in punishment.  Just review Elaida's POV in ACOS, &quot;Lightnings&quot;:<br /><br />Jarna...had had Tamra Opspenya...squeezed like a bunch of grapes...but Alviarin and the other 12 sisters...had paid in pain before they could convince Ishy the had no responsibility in it.<br /><br />Now, it Alviarin in this passage also considers that what Jarna had begun didn't end until 2 years later, when Sierin was killed, so maybe that also includes killing the babies, but just to set the record straight, Ishy was VERY angry at the BA for Tamra's death.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Live as if you were living for the second time and had acted as wrongly the first time as you are about to act now.  -VF</font><p></p>


created: 2004-04-16 21:44:35
subject: <b>I like it. Here are some random thoughts.</b>
body:
I'm a little middling on this one, but I liked the variety of ideas that were incorporated into the theory.  It is a unique circumstance in this Age that the DO is restrained only by the imperfect seals that LTT created.  Rand is a unique figure in the pattern, as well, so you may be right that he somehow allows the DO &quot;feel the seals.&quot;   Does Rand or Taim ever mention feeling the DO's influence through the seals, or is it only the women that feel it?<br /><br />This is also the first time I've heard about Rand being the Lord of Chaos, and I like that one, too.   Farmboy is allowed to do pretty much as he pleases for most of the book, without interference from Shadow forces.  It's basically Elaida's plan that leads to his capture at the end.<br /><br />The DO does need Rand in the Pattern, although the BA council may not have been tortured for the death squads after Rand's birth.  The POV from Alviarin is in &lt;i&gt;Lightnings&lt;i&gt; in ACoS, and it is written very vaguely.  Jarna, head of the BA, was killed for starting the death squads, but I think that the council was tortured for allowing Tamra to die before she revealed everything about the Dragon Reborn.  Not discovering all the details about his birth, like when it happened, or who his parents were, is a pretty serious bungle.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Diomedes <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-04-19 18:52:50
subject: <b>Lord of chaos</b>
body:
What's with all the people saying they had never thought of Rand being the Lord of Chaos. I thought that was &quot;intuitavely obvious to even the most casual observer.&quot;<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;I can express more emotion than laughter, anger and let's . . .&quot;<br /><br />Shooganooga<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-04-20 11:42:43
subject: <b>BA order redux...</b>
body:
Diomedes&#8230;<br />That&#8217;s an interesting question. I don&#8217;t remember a POV from Rand about feeling the DO&#8217;s influence through the seal.  Just the few from the girls.  Perhaps  this is a result from the lack of saidar in the seals. This somehow makes it more noticeable to them since it is only saidin.  Kind of like how a man can heal a woman&#8217;s stilling or a woman a man&#8217;s gentling &#8230; just a thought no real way to back it up.<br /><br />I agree the Lightnings prolog in AcoS is vague&#8230;.but I&#8217;m willing to entertain the idea that not getting the information out of Tamra was a serious bungle.  However, it still doesn&#8217;t change that the Shadow needs and wants Rand in the Pattern.  Overall, it doesn&#8217;t matter if you think about it&#8230;whether the BA was tortured because they tried to take out the DR early in the game or that they were tortured because they killed an Amyrlin before she reveled all she knew on the topic.  The fact of the matter is after only two years the hunt for &#8220;lucky&#8221; men was halted by Ishmael after learning about it.  Ishmael and hence the DO did NOT want Rand killed.  They had plans. The BA messed up one way or the other (you decide which way) and if this is the only point of contention&#8230;..Well, I&#8217;m at a loss.  This seems to be the least important aspect of the theory or topic.  Anyway, I&#8217;m happy to answer other questions on this topic&#8230; <br /><br />-JAGW <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">We really swing in the <font color="green">Green</font>...<br />-JAGW <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> --Just Another swingin'...errr...sword and never in the <font color="green">Lime</font>light.<br /><br />It ain't easy being <font color="green">Green</font>... <i>--Kermit the Frog</i></font><p></p>


created: 2004-04-20 16:41:40
subject: <b>great insight!</b>
body:
i wrote a similar theory that suggested the seals would need to be broken then redone w/both saidin and saidar.  your theory is way better than mine, though! (especially since my theory is at least partially incorrect due to events in CoT!)<br /><br />as good a theory as any i've read lately!


created: 2004-04-21 22:33:43
subject: <b>great</b>
body:
LISTEN TO ME   LISTEN TO ME   LISTEN TO ME   LISTEN TO ME<br /><br />just a thought but what if the reson there is a taint is because of the seals and the male 1 power being so close to evil<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Duty is heavy as a mountain<br />Death, light as a feather<br />- a saying in shinar<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-04-25 17:17:06
subject: <b>I'm...not convinced</b>
body:
I agree with the part about the DO removing the OP from the seals, I've often thought along those lines myself. <br />For the rest, seems a bit thin to me, but keep up the good work anyway. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />


created: 2004-05-11 04:19:56
subject: <b>the breaking of the seals</b>
body:
<br />maybe the seals need to be broken just because there are only so many focal points to be sealed, only those &quot;holes&quot; to be repaired. if there was an unbroken seal in place it would be corruptable and thus a way for the DO to get out. With all new seals made with both the male AND female gift to replace the seals that were corruptable.<br /><br />basically if you have so many &quot;holes&quot; and so many seals that are breakable and corruptable you need to remove them and replace them with other unbreakable and uncorruptable seals.


created: 2004-06-25 15:52:25
subject: <b>Babies being killed?</b>
body:
When in the books does this happen? I know this has nothing to do with your theory, Green. But I was just curious.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Egwene Fan  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/egwene.gif" border="0" /><br />Elaida will fall!!! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /> <br />Egwene is meant to rule the White Tower and even Rand will know her fury!! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2007-06-19 14:41:36
subject: <b>I'll just anwser the baby question</b>
body:
it happens in the New Spring. <br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /> There's some delight in ale and wine,<br />and some in girls with ankles fine,<br />but my delight, yes, always mine,<br />is to dance with Jak o' the Shadows. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /><br /> <br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-04-15 19:53:16
subject: <b>Not that similar</b>
body:
While Rand does have some points in common with Balder,these are purely coincidental,and I&quot;m sure RJ didn't mean it that way.<br /><br /><br />* Rand is a champion of the Light.<br />(More or less,lately he's been killing as many people as he's saving)<br />* Regarding purity, he removed an Age-long Taint from the world; a Christ-like trait.<br />(He didn't remove the taint as some sort of samaritan act,but rather so that the Asha'man and himself wouldn't go mad before TG)<br />* He began life as an innocent, unassuming shepherd.<br />So?We all start as innocent<br />* He was/is the catalyst for the reconciliation of male and female Aes Sedai, as well as with the invaders from across the ocean.<br />Reconciliation?He stilled Aes Sedai and made them servant to the Wise Ones.If you'll read the theories about Logain you'll see most people believe he will be the one to unite the Black and White Towers.


created: 2004-04-15 22:03:44
subject: <b>Nah...</b>
body:
Balder, meaning &quot;the luminous&quot; or &quot;the lord&quot;, is really more like Jesus in some myths.<br />There are theories which state that this was due to christian influences. Balder was known as &quot;the whitest of the Aesir&quot; and Jesus was called &quot;vite Krist&quot;, the white Christ, in the early  days of christianity in Sweden etc.<br /><br />There is however another myth about Balder. According to the 12th-century danish historian/writer Saxo Grammaticus, Balder and H&#246;der were earthly warriors figting over Nanna's hand.<br />H&#246;der finds a magical sword and slays Balder. This is perhaps a better myth, because Rand is rather violent. The only problem is that the magical sword is in the wrong guy's hand.  <br /><br />Well written theory though =)


created: 2004-04-16 00:51:22
subject: <b>well written</b>
body:
While some of the theory is not necessarily agreeable, I do like how it was presented and written.  Good job.  I'm pretty sure that RJ did not take Rand's character from that specific myth but more of a general &quot;Savior of the World&quot; stereotype that seems to parallel much of any culture's religious hero.<br /><br />To all you who questioned Rand's innocence:  Rand was referred to by Lanfear as being innocent and ignorant.  Rand couldn't stand the thought of a woman dying for any reason.  If that's not innocent, I don't know what is.<br />Also, Rand may not be the one to physically start the reconciliation between the Asha'man and Aes Sedai, but without him, the reconciliation would never be possible and Logain would probably have been re-gentled.  Think about that.<br /><br />So, while the theory doesn't fully apply to the storyline, it was nice to have a different aspect presented to think about possible directions that the story might take.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;The reason I won't tell people though is that I am enjoying watching them squirm entirely too much.&quot; - Robert Jordan</font><p></p>


created: 2004-04-19 16:12:04
subject: <b>Well-written</b>
body:
While I don't agree with everything in this story, I must congratulate the writer on the presentation - very well-laid out.<br /><br />Also, the suggestion that Mat might do something to harm Rand (ala Loki harming Balder) is not new. Many people have theorized that Mat will in fact harm Rand in some way. The reason for saying this is because after travelling to Toman's Head and seeing alternate lives, Mat pleads with Rand and says that he would never betray him. I hope that this isn't true, but it very well could be, and I think the Balder/Loki link might give some support to that idea.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">May you always walk in the Light,<br /><br />Adan, Jenn Aiel</font><p></p>


created: 2004-04-21 20:12:52
subject: <b>Mat won't betray Rand!</b>
body:
Just because there are similarities between characters and mythological characters does not mean they will do everything the mythological characters do. Sure Mat has similarities with Loki... but he also has similarities with Odin.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-04-26 17:31:10
subject: <b>Not necessarily</b>
body:
I think that was stretching it a bit too far. Even if the Randlanders (and proud of it!) are modeled after mythological figures, they don't have to follow the whole 'story of my life' of the gods.. Perrin is fashioned after Thor for the most part, and we haven't seen him don a wedding gown so far.<br /><br />On the whole, well presented.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Granting you and I argue<br />If you get the better of me<br />Are you right and I wrong?<br />If I get the better of you<br />Am I right and you wrong?<br />Or are we both right?<br />Or are we both wrong?<br />Since you and I cannot know<br />We all live in darkness</font><p></p>


created: 2004-04-15 13:57:07
subject: <b>I sort of agree</b>
body:
I always thought of the Skimming Space to sort of be the antithesis of TAR.  Where TAR is the reflection of all possible worlds, the Skimming Space is the reflection of no worlds.  I agree it's outside the pattern, but that would just forward the notion that it's the yin to TAR's yang.  TAR is within the pattern, SS is not.<br /><br />Just my two cents.  Spend them wisely.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />  Erith  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />The higher, the fewer.</font><p></p>


created: 2004-04-15 15:02:55
subject: <b>Kinda...</b>
body:
I have tio agree with the main part, they are somehow interlinked.<br />Could we add the ways? they seem to be very similar to skimming if not T'A'R, in thart there is the darkness, and the seeming fear of either going behind the waygate or falling off. Mayb there is a link between the 'travvelng' dimensions and the dream dimensions?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Member of the FF<br />Wartherder to Delectable Deadsy<br />Warder to Indredible Isa<br />Bonded to Super Seriana<br />Brilliant BGs warder reborn<br />Stonger than sidious<br />Ravs bigger better bro<br />Semi-demi-Admin (M2K said so!)<br />Our very own Mat <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-04-15 22:47:27
subject: <b>I've always thought of it kinda like DNA strand</b>
body:
Picture a DNA strand, except infinitely more complex. The Patternis woven round and round, and there are spaces inbetween. All the spaces inbetween make up T'A'R. But then, there the outside of it all. Skimming is just that: you skim the surface of the Pattern/T'A'R continuum. So naturally it has similar properties to T'A'R because it is separate from normal reality in a similar way that T'A'R is separate. But it's not completely the same because it the space on the surface, as where T'A'R is the inside connections between different parts of the Pattern, filling up the spaces. The Skimming place doesn't connect or fill up anything, thus it's empty as we've seen.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Bob L. Sedai (a.k.a. Luge) <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /><br />Fighting off the Taint - <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tinfoilhat.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" />Thanks given to Burr, the ever-helpful theory critic<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />And to Light in the Night, fellow theorist extraordinaire<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Voted Best Screenname 1 (one) years in a row.</font><p></p>


created: 2004-04-16 00:55:57
subject: <b>Duh...</b>
body:
I think if you read some of the previous theories posted you would have figured this theory out.  I've heard this thought posted so many times I didn't know that no one else had not.  Yes, Skimming and T'A'R are probably related somehow.  I even think that I've read this in the books.  Maybe in TSR.  That reminds me.  I was gonna re-read the series.  If I find it mentioned, I'll get back to you.  If not...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;The reason I won't tell people though is that I am enjoying watching them squirm entirely too much.&quot; - Robert Jordan</font><p></p>


created: 2004-04-16 22:06:29
subject: <b>I voted for it.</b>
body:
I haven't heard this idea articulated in quite this way before, and I thought you did a good job.  A thought did occur to me while I was reading it.  Since the Skimming place is all dark, maybe it's that place that Egwene and the Wise Ones use to touch other people's dreams.  What do you think?<br /><br />About the Ways; during Perrin's dream in <i>Shadow's Sleeping</i> he visits a place that is described very closely what the Ways would look like if there was light.  It's where Rahvin, Bel'al and Ishamael meet.  Perhaps these are all places within <i>tel'aran'rhiod</i> that can also be connected to the real world in some way.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Diomedes <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-04-19 05:41:27
subject: <b>Um</b>
body:
What if you were skimming and bumped into the Dark One's prison? He is trapped OUTSIDE the pattern....but couldn't skimming open another bore if near him/her/it? Again, my mad thoughts...but...yeah


created: 2004-04-19 16:05:20
subject: <b>Good start</b>
body:
I think this is on the right track, but I would like to see some development of why we should care. I mean, not that I don't care, but what sorts of results do we get if this theory is true?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">May you always walk in the Light,<br /><br />Adan, Jenn Aiel</font><p></p>


created: 2004-05-02 20:15:26
subject: <b>One more</b>
body:
What about the differences in how men and women Skim? Its been discussed before that men and women Skim in different 'dimensions'. Similar but unrelated, is my opinion.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Granting you and I argue<br />If you get the better of me<br />Are you right and I wrong?<br />If I get the better of you<br />Am I right and you wrong?<br />Or are we both right?<br />Or are we both wrong?<br />Since you and I cannot know<br />We all live in darkness</font><p></p>


created: 2004-05-02 22:25:56
subject: <b>Uhh.</b>
body:
Lets think back to the Age of Legends, when researchers used what they called &quot;vacuoles&quot; to try different experiments. They were sort of reality bubbles outside of the pattern. That leads me to believe that like some have said T'A'R is sort of like a reflection, or a very shady twin, of everything in existence. The place where they go while skimming, or while in vacuoles, etc. would be like the place where they live.<br /><br />Sort of like the explanation given on Manol in the movie &quot;The Craft&quot;. If you thought of T'A'R and the Pattern as playing football, the vacuole/skimming space would be the stadium they played on.


created: 2005-02-15 21:37:06
subject: <b>wait, TAR and skimming and DO and creator are ALL outside the pattern?</b>
body:
so, could you skim into the dark one? into the creator? Rand once asks asmo what would happen if you oppened a gateway at the back of the platform, instead of the front. asmo says somthing like 'that'd be really REALLY bad' only in asmo style. I had always assumed that it would make a big gash somewhere in the pattern. maybe instead this would move to the last exploited place outside the pattern, aka, creator/DO land. or maybe to TAR. that'd be kinda cool...<br /><br />theory is good, though!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">-Sabin<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-04-15 14:08:04
subject: <b>okaaay</b>
body:
Sure, it makes sense... but your conclusion is that the voices are caused by the madness eating away at the barriers between past (and future) lives and the current one, right? Soooo... the taint causes the madness... soooo... the taint causes the voices. Or at least helps the process along.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/clap.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lan.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/clap.gif" border="0" /><br />Nynaeve and Lan!<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-04-15 22:51:08
subject: <b>Also, about souls and channeling</b>
body:
I thought being able to channel was dependent on your physical body somehow. Hasn't RJ said that it's a recessive gene or something? The soul determines which half of the source you can channel. But then I think about the Forsaken being given new bodies: were the people taken for this purpose able to channel?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Bob L. Sedai (a.k.a. Luge) <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /><br />Fighting off the Taint - <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tinfoilhat.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" />Thanks given to Burr, the ever-helpful theory critic<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />And to Light in the Night, fellow theorist extraordinaire<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Voted Best Screenname 1 (one) years in a row.</font><p></p>


created: 2004-04-16 21:53:40
subject: <b>Good theory!</b>
body:
Souls is an interesting topic of discussion, and I liked a lot of things that you mentioned.  I also think that the Ways and the Black Wind could tie into this idea.  Maybe <i>Maichin Shin</i>(sp?) is the mad souls of the male channelers?  I only wish you had referenced some specific examples of the men hearing voices.  I know that Rand does, but I can't remember any others showing that symptom right off the top of my head.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Diomedes <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-04-16 22:31:10
subject: <b>First of all...</b>
body:
this is a very interesting theory.  I haven't decided whether I agree with it or not, but it is still a very good theory.<br /><br />If this idea turns out to be correct, your theory on those who were already hearing voices when the taint was scoured off is supported by the fact that when men who were already suffering from saidin related symptoms were gentled, the symptoms weren't cured, their progress was just halted.<br /><br />Bobsledai: I don't think that a person's body has anything to do with their connection with the True Source or their strength in channeling the One Power.  If so, then the DO would have had to find people that were just as powerful channelers as the dead Forsaken had been, otherwise we would have heard them complaining about a difference in their channeling strength as well.<br /><br />Actually, I am about to submit a theory on this, so if you want to hear more about this, watch for Samshaidar Mhael's next theory (if it gets posted).<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Samshaidar Mhael<br />The Leader of the Destroyers of Shadow <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-blue.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-red.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/borg.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-green.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-purple.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />I am immortal, I have inside me blood of kings <br />I have no rival, no man can be my equal<br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-04-17 01:24:04
subject: <b>Nice theory!</b>
body:
I like it, and until someone can show some proof of it not being correct, I must agree. <br /><br />Good work.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">*~Brandi Sedai~*<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> Brandi Taborwin, Aes Sedai of the Brown Ajah, from Cairhien <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rand.gif" border="0" /> Sworn to the Dragon <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rand.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />&quot;A Cairhienin AND an Aes Sedai? There could be no worse combination.&quot; - Lan <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lan.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-04-17 20:21:35
subject: <b>Thanks ya'll!</b>
body:
Thank you all for agreeing with me... and pointing out weaknesses in the theory. What good would it be if we posted an people could only agree with us? Jeeze... But, to adress some of your points.<br /><br />nmaria27: Indirectly, the voices are a product of the taint... but inreality, they're a product of the pattern. OK, everyone, think back to your college or high school days (whichever are closer <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> ) Are you there? OK, now we're in chemistry. Say you have multiple containers in graded sizes, going from largest to smallest. In each of them, you put a different colored liquid, and then stack them so that each one is sitting in a colored liquid, except the smallest which is empty. Then, you put an acid in the smallest. As that acid eats at the container, it will eventually get through into the first colored liquid, and then mingle with that liquid. As you add more acid, you will eat through more layers until you get to the last layer, then you have a mess. Imagine each layer as a life. The mingling liquids may be caused by the acid, but are not a product of the acid. ( Can we all see the parallel?)<br /><br />Bobsledai: Yes, he has said that channeling is a recessive gene, but at the beginning of my theory I accounted for that. I'm saying yes, the body does need to be able to channel, but the soul needs to be able to as well. I have no idea about the Forsaken host bodies though... that might be a question for RJ.<br /><br />Diomedes: Yeah, I wrote this on the fly, so I didn't have my books with me. But, Cadsuane, when she meets Rand for the first time (LoC?) asks if he's begun hearing voices. She says then that some men do, and it is a sign of madness. At the same time, when she says that, one of the Asha'man laughs. Not really a refference, but a sign that he might be hearing his own voices.<br /><br />Thank you again, all. You're wonderful!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;For the lord, our god, has not given us a spirit of fear, yet of Power and of Love, and of a sound mind.&quot; ~ somewhere in one of the Thessalonians... <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-04-19 15:16:48
subject: <b>r</b>
body:
Recycled Forsaken are bad example bc DO is practically a god or He can do almost anything in SG. For instance He could bring one of his Chosen back as a channeling duck<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" />


created: 2004-04-19 21:53:10
subject: <b>About Cadsaune asking Rand and the Ashaman with him</b>
body:
if they have begun to hear voices yet.<br /><br />It was Dashiva/Osangar/Aginor that laughed. He's not affected by the taint since he's linked to the DO. (Asmodean was unaffected by the taint until Rand cut his black cords to the Dark One.)<br /><br />Narishma looked at Cadsuane as though she was suddenly very dangerous. He might have heard voices.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> Linda Sedai <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Proud member of the Embroiderer's Guild of the White Tower<br /><br /><b><font color="red">FAQ admin</font></b> </font>'cos the FAQ is where it's at.<br /><br /><b>Currently working on:</b> my 70th FAQ<p><a href="http://13depository.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">The thirteenth depository : A Wheel of Time blog</a></p><p></p>


created: 2004-04-20 13:13:42
subject: <b>Linda</b>
body:
You're amazing! Thanks for catching my mistake! Are you aware <i>Linda</i> means pretty in Spanish? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;For the lord, our god, has not given us a spirit of fear, yet of Power and of Love, and of a sound mind.&quot; ~ somewhere in one of the Thessalonians... <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-04-20 13:44:35
subject: <b>Hee hee! A channeling duck! *NM*</b>
body:
<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;For the lord, our god, has not given us a spirit of fear, yet of Power and of Love, and of a sound mind.&quot; ~ somewhere in one of the Thessalonians... <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-04-26 00:24:54
subject: <b>Ya'll don't know...</b>
body:
how many times I had to hear this theory... Jear and I have Chemistry together, and well... it gets kinda boring... so we discussed Wot theories. This is one of his favorites, and although I occasionally disagree, just to make him squirm, I do agree with it.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Estoy un poco cerdo hoy...&quot; ~ Jear Rela (He meant to use <i>ciego</i> instead of <i>cerdo</i> ciego = blind, cerdo = pig... <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-04-28 21:08:41
subject: <b>just a thought</b>
body:
What about the significantly less number of channelers in the current age as comparied to the age of legends?  I would assume the the same number of channeling souls are fixed so unless they get balefired then would there be the same number of channelers now?


created: 2004-04-29 12:17:23
subject: <b>Ahhhhhh....</b>
body:
In our dear AoL, Aes Sedai tested <b>EVERYONE</b> to see if they could channel... now unfortunately, the sisters wait for a girl to come to them.<br /><br />We see how many novices the Rebel Tower finds just in the villages they pass through, and all the new soldiers brought in via recruitment. There are a lot more channelers out there that just haven't been found.<br /><br />If a person who must be taught to channel is never found, they still pass on their genes, and the ability to channel, but never become channelers themselves.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;For the lord, our god, has not given us a spirit of fear, yet of Power and of Love, and of a sound mind.&quot; ~ somewhere in one of the Thessalonians... <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2008-05-11 13:00:14
subject: <b>Channeling and Gentics, Interaction with the Soul</b>
body:
My conclusion is the channeling is both a set of Genetic traits Traits and a matter of the Soul. <br /><br />Genetics:<br /><br />My opinion is that the Different Talents are in fact Genetic Traits. Some of the rare ones are probably recessive and some Talents are likely dependent on other talents to be fully effective. Then there is a finaly Genetic recessive Trait that allows for a body to link to the True Source, and is most likely a trait that is different from men and women. (I.E different genes.)<br />One power strength is probably related to how many Talents your genes carry.<br />Following this line of reasoning you can explain why there are so few Healers among the Aiel wise Ones and why there are so many Wheather Wise ones amongst the Sea Folk.<br /><br />Soul:<br />There is likely a limited number of channeling capable Souls and they are drawn to bodies that carry channeling genes, tho not nescerrily bodies that have the actual &quot;link&quot; gene. The reason I have this belif is that Birgite states that she has never been able to channel<br />I also belive that how your One Power &quot;Elemental&quot; Affinities is related to the Soul.


created: 2004-04-15 16:05:05
subject: <b>What?</b>
body:
The problem is that nothing says the world will actually be destroyed. it could just be a metaphor and the world could be launched into total chaos. Or the end to the world could mean the end of the world as it is known.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br />Red Sox Fan &amp; Yankee Hater<br />kim: it's too cold there to smell<br /><b>Warder to the wonderful, amusing and ever so smart Elayne_Sedai</b><br />Friends don't let friends read Goodkind<br />My mind isn't always in the gutter, it just has VIP access</font><p><a href="http://tinyurl.com/45t6t" target="_blank">Simply Splendid </a></p><p></p>


created: 2004-04-15 18:00:31
subject: <b>Two Things.</b>
body:
First is that I have always said that the battle with the DO cannot take longer than a few houres. All the stuff with Trollocs and else can come before or after, it makes little differance; Logain, Perrin, and Mat can take care of any trollocs or Dreadlords. <br /><br />Looking at what the &quot;bubles of Evil&quot; can do I hate to see what the DO might do when there are no seals in his way.<br /><br />Your idea about the nature of the strugle with the DO seems to fit well. I had once thought that if the DO can brake the wheel and remake the world in his image, maybe Rand can do the same and keep the DO out forever.<br /><br />Blah<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Everything that has a begining has an end. And we wake from our dream.</font><p></p>


created: 2004-04-16 01:05:31
subject: <b>Nice idea</b>
body:
Very well written and a decent theory.  Finally!  Most of the others that come out this week have just be restatements of previous theories.  This one actually makes you think.<br />If the DO is using Rand, which seems very logical, he might be doing so by &quot;Let the Lord of Chaos rule.&quot;  By allowing Rand to do what he wants, perhaps it is taking Rand down that path in which Rand has to make the decision that will break the world or not.  There are so many possibilities that stem from this train of thought.  Maybe Mat &quot;balancing the light of the world&quot; has to make a decision that will affect Rand and his ability to keep the Wheel from destruction.  <br />Anyways, I like the thought that the DO needs Rand.  Why else would he have left him alive?  Of course he needs him for a reason.  Breaking the Wheel seems to be the possibility that Rand is needed for.  Thanks for the thoughts.  I'm gonna think about this one some more.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;The reason I won't tell people though is that I am enjoying watching them squirm entirely too much.&quot; - Robert Jordan</font><p></p>


created: 2004-04-16 22:18:36
subject: <b>I like it...</b>
body:
this idea is very logical.  I know in other theories I have talked about Rand dueling the DO, but a lot of what I write are on assumptions, based on other peoples prejudices... maybe that's why my theories hardly ever get posted.<br /><br />I really like this theory, its original.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Samshaidar Mhael<br />The Leader of the Destroyers of Shadow <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-blue.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-red.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/borg.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-green.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-purple.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />I am immortal, I have inside me blood of kings <br />I have no rival, no man can be my equal<br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-04-18 20:35:24
subject: <b>disagree that the DO hasn't affected the world</b>
body:
what about the weather pre-Bowl of the Winds?  The DO &quot;strained from his prison to touch the world&quot; (can't remember pg) to halt the seasons.  I believe this is evidence that the DO can affect the world, even without your prerequisite conditions of either inviting the shadow or bending knee through torture.


created: 2004-04-19 12:48:42
subject: <b>Just some speculation</b>
body:
Good theory,<br /><br />I am not really going to add anything important here or really anything I firmly believe, just random thoughts that you are free to ignore.<br /><br />Perhaps the DO may give Rand the choice of breaking the wheel, mockingly telling Rand that the only way to destroy the him (DO) is to break the wheel. That when the wheel breaks all is destroyed, the DO, and all people, except perhaps Ta'vereen. Rand, Mat and Perrin plus family by association. It may be possible to convince him of the necessity. <br /><br />Rand would then have the choice to make, truly break the world and all in it, or allow the DO to win and destroy all anyway. If Rand chooses to break the wheel though and attempt to destroy the DO this may be what the DO wants. A trick by him to get Rand to do as he wants, the DO is referred to as the Father of Lies so I assume any discussion will involve deceit. <br /><br />By Breaking the wheel Rand commits a great evil allowing the DO victory, even if no actual destruction comes. Whereas if Rand is true to course with his predilection for not wanting to cause death and destruction, to not cause a &quot;breaking&quot; then he may not want to. It may come down to if Rand is hard and emotionless then he can callously decide to do it, thereby dooming all. Or if he can be taught laughter and tears, emotion, to feel again then he cannot find himself capable and thwart the DO. Perhaps the DO's only real chance of winning is through perversion and corruption.<br /><br />Also there seems to be three references to breaking, the world, open the DO's prison and the wheel. It seems plausible that these are related, three is a powerful mythological number, and many beliefs are that all things are bound to the number, that all exit in triumvirate.<br /><br />Anyway I am not saying I agree with any of this, it's all just random ramblings but I though I would reply with it irregardless<br />


created: 2004-04-19 15:05:44
subject: <b>Balefire option</b>
body:
I don't think that DO really want to destroy world but He <i>only</i> want to change it. After all if He wanted totally wipe out the world He could do that with Balefire or He could make sure that all His channelers would use as much Balefire as possible and anyone who would resist that order would become sextoy for fades.


created: 2004-04-19 15:57:22
subject: <b>The Nature of the Battle</b>
body:
This is a very interesting theory, but I'm not sure that I buy it yet. As one poster has pointed out, the different weather patterns that have been in effect throughout the books seem to be a result of the Dark One touching the world. I was going to point out that, if I remember correctly, the Guide talks about how after the Bore was drilled, the Dark One could touch the world directly, but was limited because the Bore didn't completely break him free - rather, it was just a hole into his prison. That is, he could get a &quot;finger&quot; through the Bore, but not his whole &quot;hand.&quot;<br /><br />This theory WOULD lead to pleasing results. Many people have suggested that the Last Battle will result in linear time. This in turn would make Ba'alzamon's comment to Rand in The Great Hunt that this is the last time they will ever meet true. I have always wished that this were so, because it would make Rand unique among Dragon Reborns. However, RJ has said in interviews that Ba'alzamon was incorrect (whether he was wrong or lying isn't clear), and that time is cyclical. This leads me to believe that RJ doesn't have in mind the creation of linear time. He has praised the Greeks for conceiving of linear time, but in his novels he is working with a certain model that fits his story. So I don't think that Rand will break the wheel and thus create linear time.<br /><br />Furthermore, I wonder how exactly Rand could break the wheel. I don't think even his strength in the OP or the fact that he is the strongest ta'veren ever could bring that about. In the end, I think it will come down to Rand and Alivia using the Choedan Kal and re-making the Dark One's prison outside of time.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">May you always walk in the Light,<br /><br />Adan, Jenn Aiel</font><p></p>


created: 2004-04-19 16:21:18
subject: <b>One more comment...</b>
body:
I was just reading a post on the &quot;Why women must be there and Fel's warning&quot; and thought what was said there was relevant to this theory too. Why, if the DO NEEDS Rand, did he try to kill Rand when he was a baby? I don't think the DO needs Rand in the way this theory suggests.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">May you always walk in the Light,<br /><br />Adan, Jenn Aiel</font><p></p>


created: 2004-04-20 05:04:30
subject: <b>the DO touch</b>
body:
I think the Dark One can have a small touch on the world. Otherwise, as stated before, how could he have influenced the weather, and even more, how could he have tainted the male channelers?<br /><br />But the theory fits still very well as I think he doesn't have the power to make the Wheel knee to him. Otherwise he would be  powerful enough to enslave the world.<br /><br />And the destruction of the wheel would result in total chaos I think. I don't see why the destruction of the Wheel would result in linear time. I would rather say it will result in chaotic time, with the world off-balance.


created: 2004-04-20 07:28:27
subject: <b>Um, this is a point to consider</b>
body:
Should the dark one kill the great serpent, time would stop. &quot;Saidin and saidar work against each other and turn the wheel of time&quot; hence i speculate if the WoT was broken time would come to a standstill.<br /><br />Of course it could also mean that the ages stop happening....just one boring age...<br /><br />and i really love the logical thinking. Very well and in dept. Great writing!


created: 2004-04-20 19:17:32
subject: <b>BA order to kill &quot;lucky&quot; men.</b>
body:
Hate to jump into the fray since this isn't my theory.  However, Adan brought up a discussion from my theory that was quasi-relevant.<br /><br />I don't believe anything has been presented to us that the DO or Ishmael gave the order to kill &quot;lucky&quot; men.  I believe it is indicated that that was strictly a BA operation and they were punished for it (and/or for killing Tamara w/o permission).<br /><br />Just my 2 cents.<br /><br />-JAGW <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">We really swing in the <font color="green">Green</font>...<br />-JAGW <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> --Just Another swingin'...errr...sword and never in the <font color="green">Lime</font>light.<br /><br />It ain't easy being <font color="green">Green</font>... <i>--Kermit the Frog</i></font><p></p>


created: 2004-04-22 15:23:38
subject: <b>Ergo, some of my answer you will understand, and some you will not</b>
body:
&quot;THe problem, as you so aptly put it, is choice. If you go through the door on your right you will be taken back to the creator and the weave will be rewoven, or you can go back to the door on you left, back to Elayne, Aviendha and Min, and to the ultimate destruction of your sprecies...&quot;<br /><br />well, maybe not, but you know...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Member of the FF<br />Wartherder to Delectable Deadsy<br />Warder to Indredible Isa<br />Bonded to Super Seriana<br />Brilliant BGs warder reborn<br />Stonger than sidious<br />Ravs bigger better bro<br />Semi-demi-Admin (M2K said so!)<br />Our very own Mat <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-04-24 12:36:20
subject: <b>a-HA!</b>
body:
I knew that little bugger Rand was trouble...<br /><br />But the DO -can- touch the world--the abnormal weather attested to that. Clearly, the DO wants Rand down -some- path, but I'm not entirely convinced it's to do with world destruction.<br /><br />To the above poster: Yeah, all that convoluted spouting by &quot;The Architect&quot; sounds quite a bit like what's going on in WoT...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/clap.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lan.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/clap.gif" border="0" /><br />Nynaeve and Lan!<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-04-27 18:59:35
subject: <b>one comment</b>
body:
I don't agree that the Last Battle will be entirely between Rand and the DO.  My proof comes from the Blight.  If for as long as anyone is aware of, there heve been regular trolloc raids, which were successful, as the blight was advancing until recently, why would they just stop? Unless, of course, the DO was amassing a huge army.<br />That being said, it is a good theory, I think the DO will use his army like a threat to Rand, maybe as a sort of ransom, (&quot;I will kill them all unless you agree with me&quot; says the DO) to help force Rand to a decision.


created: 2004-04-27 23:17:49
subject: <b>You seem to be missing something</b>
body:
The theory states that Rand is needed to break the Wheel. This doesn't make sense, Ishmael told Rand that he had fought him countless times before and had fought beside him almost as often. The Dragon had become Nae' Blis(sp) in ages past and would become so again in ages to come. The Dragon was turned, even if you discount that as a lie you have to consider that in all of the turnings of the wheel they have to have caught him at least once before and used the Circle of 13 method to make him evil. Hence if he alone was able/needed to break the Wheel/ win the last battle it would have been won/broken when he was turned.


created: 2004-04-28 15:59:23
subject: <b>Father of Lies</b>
body:
During that time poor Ishy thought that he was Father of Lies<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />


created: 2004-04-28 22:01:55
subject: <b>Well........</b>
body:
I like your theory but there is one thing. If the dark one wanted rand to break the wheel then Rand would have to live. The DO would know this so he would tell his forsaken I like your theory but there is one thing. If the dark one wanted rand to break the wheel then Rand would have to live. The DO would know this so he would tell his forsaken NOT TO KILL THE DRAGON REBORN and so far some of the forsaken have tried to kill rand (asmodean, lanfear, rhavin, sammael)and if the DO told them NOT TO KILL THE DRAGON REBORN then the forsaken would not dare defy him.


created: 2004-05-01 23:49:56
subject: <b>Rand's Death</b>
body:
Maybe Rand's death itself would cause the wheel to break. He seems tied pretty tightly to it. Not to mention the fact that he IS the last dragon. Perhaps with no more dragons there will be no more wheel. Also, the DO exerts a certain power over the grave, so if Rand was dead, the DO would still be able to use him to break it.


created: 2004-05-06 12:44:01
subject: <b>too complex</b>
body:
I think that Rand, Matt and Perin will be together at the last battle.  The result, they're so t'averen that the DO trips on a rock and breaks his neck.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Books are the blessed chloroform of the mind <br />-Robert Chambert<br /><br />The only thing we have to fear is fear itself <br />-FDR</font><p></p>


created: 2004-05-12 17:36:26
subject: <b>great theory, one prob tho</b>
body:
this was definatly something new and nice, i had never even suspected Lan as the judas, gives me a whole new perspective. <br /><br />one thing, the reason lan left immediatly for Myrelle was because Moiraine had set up along with the bond switch, she arranged for lan to be compelled to go to myrelle. it wasn't as if he had much of a choice<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Squilo Sedai <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />When you find yourself in danger<br />When your threatened by a stranger<br />When you feel your gonna take a 'licken<br />There is one thing you should do<br />When there is no one else to turn to<br />Caaaaaaall...for super-chicken<br /><br />GRAIN BREAK!!!</font><p></p>


created: 2004-05-12 17:59:15
subject: <b>interesting</b>
body:
It seems that you and LitN have been out drinking together. Mesaana posing as Lanfear, Lan a possible DF, what's next...I can't wait.<br /><br />Interesting idea, I can't agree, but will remain open to the idea. Lan being a DF or some form of conscious informer does not seem consistent with a majority of the events in EotW.<br /><br />Another interesting point is that Fain can see DF's. He has the ability to see a sooty mark on the forhead of anyone who has ever sworn to the DO. I believe he mentions that he can sense if someone even thinks about it. My point is that, in WH, Fain likely observed Lan and there was the fight later. Did Fain see this mark on Lan. He was certainly preoccupied with Rand and Lan was busy in his own right, but there is possibilities there. <br /><br />I may comment more after another read, but a good theory, if not an easy one to believe.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Need a book to read - check out my blog for ideas.</font><p><a href="http://nethspace.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">Neth Space</a></p><p></p>


created: 2004-05-12 18:41:08
subject: <b>I voted no</b>
body:
primarily because of logistics. How does Lan get info to Moridin? According to the &quot;Tellings of the Wheel&quot; site, Rand went to Camelyn the same day that the Forsaken had their meeting. I've read the relevant chapters and while the Forsaken meeting could have happened at any time, circumstantial evidence points to Rand and Min entering palace at Caemlyn sometime in the mid to late afternoon. Now I suppose that Lan could have gotten the news to the Forsaken in time, it seems doubtful to me. From the way Moridin conducts the meeting it seems like he's known for some time. <br />I also think that after 20 of close contact, Moiraine would have known. And it's obvious she didn't.<br />Good read tho.<br /><br />NaCl(how does Lan contact Moridin?)H2O <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Any comments on my photos appreciated</font><p><a href="http://saltwater.smugmug.com/" target="_blank">My photos, a work in progress</a></p><p></p>


created: 2004-05-12 18:52:18
subject: <b>Good job</b>
body:
I had fun reading this.  I vote yes on the fact that this could be true from the evidence you provided.  Great presentation, great thoughts.  It would be an amazing twist if it is true.  <br /><br />I guess we just have to RAFO.  This theory in many ways takes into account that Jordan hasn't made any mistakes along the way though which is shaky.  I hope he hasn't which would make this even more plausible.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>MatsEyeView</i><br />&quot;I'm your huckleberry.&quot; -Val Kilmer, &quot;Tombstone&quot;<br /><br />&quot;And he who forgets, is destined to remember&quot; -Pearl Jam's <i>Nothingman</i></font><p></p>


created: 2004-05-12 19:03:02
subject: <b>good work!</b>
body:
i voted yes. well put together, interesting idea, very eloquent presentation.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">hot damn.</font><p></p>


created: 2004-05-12 20:04:43
subject: <b>I will vote No , although some of the evidence is plausible.</b>
body:
Unfortunately, no vote option was there when I finished reading. What happened?<br /><br />Just to cover a few points at this time.<br /><br />Lan`s POVs about AS in NS is, to me, obvious foreshadowing of his turn-around by being Bonded to Moiraine.<br /><br />One other point. His reaction at losing her Bond is typical of Lan`s character. He accepts what is. Then is drawn by Myrelle`s Bond and rides on.<br /><br />While I`m at it, Lan helping Rand to meet the Amyrlin Seat was a sympathetic gesture toward a young man who would be told he is the Dragon Reborn. He wished for Rand to remain his own man as long as possible.<br /><br />Also, Lan teaching Rand to Sheathe the Sword was not to have him be killed, but to tell him how to fulfill the most desperate desire he had when nothing else would work.<br />And so it did, with Ishamael at Falme.<br /><br />One more thought. Lan`s reactions toward Moiraine changed after meeting Nynaeve, and falling in love. He was obviously conflicted by his duty to Moiraine as Warder and his desire to be free for Nynaeve. <br /><br />More later.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2004-05-12 20:09:32
subject: <b>Well done.</b>
body:
I almost gave up on you about half way and then I noticed Lan's name down the page, which kept me reading until the end.  It was a good read and you do a good job of selling along the way.<br /><br />I was one of those that never even suspected Lan, but what a betrayal if your correct.  <br /><br />RJ is good and the good ones can surprise you, even if you think you know whats going on.  <br /><br /><br />Thanks for the read,<br /><br />Columbo.<br /><br />P.S.  I cannot give up on Lan and I hope your wrong.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2004-05-16 20:46:50
subject: <b>Not a chance.</b>
body:
Interesting idea, but when would he have turned? In NS he was fighting for the Light, and as of tEotW the plan was NOT to keep the Dragon alive but to kill him. See the entire novel for proof of this. So Lan would have just killed him there if he wanted to. Also, Moiraine would have to be a DF too, then, because she would sense it through the bond.<br /><br />A commendable effort, but I have to disagree.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2004-05-16 21:04:04
subject: <b>Interesting theory</b>
body:
I have a few comments on the cleansing thing though.<br /><br /><br />1. Dashiva knew that Rand wanted to cleanse the taint.  Rand accidentally spoke out loud about it in front of him. (PoD ch. 14)<br /><br />2. Rand himself didn't know if the CK would work to cleanse the taint.  He just assumed that it might.  I think Lanfear would assume the same thing.<br /><br />3. It didn't matter where it was to happen.  If the Forsaken thought the CK would be used, then they would know ahead of time that the moment they started using the CK, they would be able to feel the power being used and go directly to that location.<br /><br />4. It didn't matter whether or not Lanfear knew that Nynaeve was with Rand or helping him.  All she said was that Rand knew someone strong enough to use it.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Wartherded by Phil Reborn<br /><br />CW</font><p></p>


created: 2004-05-17 00:18:49
subject: <b>The second longest theory; nice job!</b>
body:
Very, very good theory.  Well thought out, well written, well researched.  That said, I had to vote no.  Not because I think you&#8217;re delusional, but because while you do state at the end that you do not believe Lan is a typical Darkfriend, and may in fact be unwittingly aiding the Shadow, strictly speaking Lan is no Darkfriend.  He never did, never has, and  never will, pledge his soul to the Dark One.  That he might be Rand&#8217;s Judas (rather than the more obvious candidate of Matt, or even Perrin for that matter) is very intriguing, and is not beyond the realm of possibility however.<br /><br />I disagree with your conclusion that Lan&#8217;s main focus is avenging Malkier.  You say that once the Dark One is defeated and resealed (however that comes about), Lan will lose is &#8220;life&#8217;s purpose&#8221;, that he will &#8220;no longer have an adversary to stand against&#8221;.  Not true, and Lan knows it.  He will always &#8220;stand ready&#8221;, because he knows there are no guarantees.   He knows that the Shadow can be defeated, but he also knows that it will never be obliterated.  He knows there will always be Darkfriends and Shadowspawn, even if they are pushed back and sent to ground.  Whether he is aware of Nicola&#8217;s Foretelling or not, I also believe that he knows that though the battle may be done, the world will never be truly done with battle.  Evidence and quotes from the books for this?  There really are none specifically.  But taken as a whole, it&#8217;s what we can conclude about Lan.  It&#8217;s intuitive, if I may say so.<br /> <br />As for Lan&#8217;s advice to Rand and how Rand uses that in his development, there is nothing nefarious here.  While Moiraine acts as Rand&#8217;s advisor and protector &#8211; his surrogate mother figure if you will &#8211; Lan takes up the roll of his surrogate father figure, continuing and expanding on the roll that Tam had in ways that Tam could no longer fulfill.  Rand outgrew Tam, just as he eventually outgrew Lan, eventually having to turn to Asmodean as a final source for his mentoring.<br /><br />Lan instructs Rand in things that Moiraine can never truly understand, and thus can never truly condone.  Learned and inciteful advisor that she is, she is a woman, and Rand needs a man&#8217;s perspective in order to complete his development.  It&#8217;s all about balance after all.  Sheathing the sword is something that Lan can directly address with Rand.  Lan knows that in order for Rand to fulfill is role as the Dragon Reborn, he must understand the concept of  a man&#8217;s tempting of fate and willingness to self-sacrifice when the odds are against him.  It&#8217;s a man&#8217;s only chance and his only alternative if he is to remain true to himself.  Despite the fact that Lan knows that the Dragon Reborn is precious, and absolutely must be present at TG if the Light is to have any chance, he also knows that the Dragon Reborn, that Rand, if protected and coddled and isolated from the exigencies of the world as much as Aes Sedai and the Tower would see him so, may end up so impotent as a result that he might as well not be present at TG.  A man&#8217;s strength, his fertility and potency if you will, must be tested and tried before he is truly considered a man, before he is truly considered ready.  This is even more true in the relative age of the present Wheel of Time than in ours.  A willingness and understanding of sheathing the sword is the ultimate test of this for a man.  Rand passed that test at Fal Dara.  Lan was very directly responsible for that.  <br /><br />Conversely, Moiraine has her own woman&#8217;s perspective of sheathing the sword, but it cannot extent to her &#8220;son&#8221;, to Rand, because she is the protector and teacher, the mother figure, who would sacrifice herself as she does ultimately, but could never allow those under her protection to take a chance in sacrificing themselves, at least before time.  She does not want Rand, in other words, to let go of those apron strings until the very last moment.  Lan understands, from almost the beginning, that that course would lead to disaster.  He is the mitigating father figure.<br /><br />As far as Lan and his initial negative reaction and opinions of Aes Sedai and the Tower as a result of their failing to aid Malkier in time, that negative reaction and opinion is understandable under the circumstances, just has Thom&#8217;s is 15 years or so later in regards to Aes Sedai and Tower treatment of his nephew.  But neither does a Darkfriend make necessarily.  For some yes.  For strong, morally grounded men like Lan and Thom, no.  Bitterness and resentment on their part, yes.  Mitigation of that bitterness and resentment as a result of the influence and example of a strong, morally grounded Aes Sedai like Moiraine, yes again.  <br /><br />And as to Lan&#8217;s reaction to Moiraine&#8217;s &#8220;death&#8221;; Lan&#8217;s reaction was little different to Moiraine&#8217;s reaction to Siuan&#8217;s &#8220;death&#8221;, or Siuan&#8217;s reaction to Moiraine&#8217;s &#8220;death&#8221;.  Despite the fact that Moiraine as a Cairhienin is the most likely candidate to keep private matters private, all three are well schooled in the philosophy of doing what must be done, and enduring what cannot be changed.  Lan shows very little emotion at the worst of times.  The fact that Rand notes that his eyes were &#8220;red-rimmed&#8221; shows that he was feeling very deeply the loss of Moiraine.  He told Moiraine back in New Spring that you say a prayer for the dead and ride on.  That&#8217;s exactly what he did, even if the reader was never privy to the prayer.  Just as Moiraine undoubtedly said a prayer for Siuan after Egwene told her of  Siuan&#8217;s fate, and just as Siuan undoubtedly did for Moiraine after learning of her fate.  Whether tears were shed publicly or not, the reader should have no doubt that they were indeed shed in all three cases.<br /><br />All that said, it&#8217;s possible that Lan could be Rand&#8217;s Judas in the end.  Judas was, after all, an absolute necessity for Christ to complete his mission on earth and thus realize is transformation as Savior.  And Judas was not your typical &#8220;Darkfriend&#8221;.  But then RJ likes to take real world references and twist them in his WoT world.  Lan being Judas rather than either Matt or Perrin would certainly be a twist.  But then again, a better twist might be something else obvious.  Alivia is going to help Rand die after all, isn&#8217;t she?  Woman as ultimate betrayer/savior, rather than instigator of original sin.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Everybody's Auntie MJJ-like it or not <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br />Dylanfanatic: My Left-Handed Duckling of Darkness <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />&quot;I know something from books&quot;<br />&quot;Books? But how can you know it from books?&quot;<br />&quot;Oh you're right; I know nothing nothing nothing!&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2004-05-17 03:22:40
subject: <b>Outstanding presentation of an idea!</b>
body:
As someone above did, I voted yes simply because you were able to make me accept as possible the points on which your theory hangs. I am not certain Lan is the &quot;Judas,&quot; but I am certain that this is one of the most enjoyable and well-written theories I have read here. Thanks!


created: 2004-05-17 07:20:41
subject: <b>I almost believed it</b>
body:
It wasn't until I got to the part about Lan's opinion of AS, followed by his rather easy capitulation to Moiraine's bond.  That is how every relationship is consumated in WoT.  Resistance to something is one of the sureest signs it will last.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


created: 2004-05-17 10:35:15
subject: <b>I disagree</b>
body:
It is a nice theory, and a decent read, but I disagree.  Lan has had too many chances to kill Rand.  I think the thing that sets up so much conflict with Lan is Nynaeve.  It is clear that he is intrigued by her very early on in the book.  By the time he is teaching Rand in Fal Dara, he has fallen in love with her.  Morraine even comments on how Lan is changing his loyalties.  Lan reaches out to Rand to teach him to protect himself because he knows Rand needs those skills to live.  He steps in as Rand's father even as Nynaeve had stepped in as his mother figure.  Lan does this in part because of his love for Nynaeve.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">May you be successful  in all your projects.<br /><br />I am a pastafarion.  The Flying Spaghetti Monster created the universe, and no one in Kansas can prove me wrong.<br /><br />http://www.vengaza.org</font><p></p>


created: 2004-05-17 13:23:39
subject: <b>Good Foundation...but a poor structure</b>
body:
I think that Ba'alzamon/Ishamael/Moridin knowing what he knew and when indicates some source of knowledge...<br /><br />But opportunity is not enough to point us at Lan.  <br /><br />Makes me wonder about who else could be squealing though...


created: 2004-05-17 14:09:22
subject: <b>Great theory</b>
body:
But I disagree, basically on gut feeling.  I'd love it if Lan does turn out to be serving the Shadow though.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Of course, that's just my opinion.  I could be wrong.<br /><br />&quot;Life is like WoT... You never know when it's gonna end.&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2004-05-17 14:45:36
subject:
<b>Rats rats Rats rast RATS...... and other assorted vermin.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/oh.gif" border="0" /></b>

body:
I must say that I am very much impressed by the work you put into this......but I must vote no. <br /><br />My reasons:<br />1. Betrayal of Rand does not necessarily mean that thye betrayer is a DF.....<br /><br />2. I can't see it as a plot twist RJ would employ.(weak I know..but I must go with my gut.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" />  )<br /><br />3.The rats and co. are Moridin's source for his knowledge in many of the cases you explore. (I feel it's part reason of the reason Moridin killed the rat with the True Power in WH..<br /><br />    A: to show how plentiful his sources are<br />    B: to show the other Forsaken how little he thinks of them.<br />    C: to  to reinforce his status as death...<br /><br />Use of vermin would easily fill the gaps in for many of the &quot;how did the Dark One know questions&quot;.......<br /><br />I did very much enjoy your writing though.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>you know you can't leave Wotmania. It's kinda like herpes, you can just never really get rid of it.</i><br />Kit <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /></font><p><a href="http://www.cbgxtra.com/" target="_blank">Comics Buyer's Guide XTRA</a></p><p></p>


created: 2004-05-18 10:28:29
subject: <b>I'm speechless...</b>
body:
I had never considered this possibility, but after reading your theory, I find myself quite taken by it. I vote yes, though I'm not certain I agree yet. However, I do think what you write is possible. It would certainly be in keeping with Jordan's penchant for surprise; also, although I would hate losing such a magnificent character to the Shadow, the fact that Jordan was able to work that in so subtly would also be highly enjoyable. <br /><br />If Lan is somehow connected to Ishy/Ba'alzamon/Moridin, then I believe, though, that it must be as an unwitting pawn. Lan is too devoted to fighting the Shadow to willingly serve it. I wonder about your claim that Lan has never explicitly said that he fights the Shadow. Is that really true? Finally, as a previous poster has pointed out, Ishy can always rely on rats and ravens to act as spies.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">May you always walk in the Light,<br /><br />Adan, Jenn Aiel</font><p></p>


created: 2004-05-18 18:51:19
subject: <b>Thanks, everybody!</b>
body:
I have to say that, even though most people don't agree, the positive feedback about the writing is extremely gratifying.  I'm really happy that so many people enjoyed reading it.<br /><br />I have to give a <b>HUGE</b> thank you to linda_sedai for listening to a ton of crazy ideas, and ultimately making the final piece 100% more organized and readable.  Thanks also to Light in the Night.  If you can believe it, this theory originated as a response to &quot;The Complete Case Against Vandene!&quot;  <br /><br />One last thing for everyone to consider before I address some specific comments.  Other than Rand, Nynaeve was the only other person, besides Perrin, with a POV in EotW.  She's continued to have numerous POVs in the rest of the books, until <i>Mashiara</i> in CoS, when Lan mysteriously appears at just the right moment to save her from Moghedien (once again, very coincidental, no?).  After that point her presence has noticeably diminished.  No POVs in PoD, only two short ones in WH, and none in CoT.  Once again, I think RJ is trying to avoid letting us know too much about Lan, and that makes me very suspicious.<br /><br /><b>Squilo Sedai:</b> To me, the interesting aspect of the Warder Bond passing from Moiraine to Myrelle is the relative ease with which Lan accepts it.  He's angry when Moiraine tells him about it in TGH, but when it actually happens he doesn't ever say or do anything to indicate that he's unhappy about it.<br /><br /><b>kcf:</b> I'm not sure it counts, but I'm frequently drinking when I indulge my wotmania addiction late at night and reading LitN's theories <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" />  To be honest, I hadn't considered that angle about Fain during the fight in <i>Blue Carp Street</i>.  I'll have to read that chapter, and see if anything jumps out at me.<br /><br /><b>NaClH2O:</b> Admittedly, I went out of my way in the body of the theory to <i>avoid</i> speculating on the exact process by which Lan might transfer information to Moridin/Ishamael.  I think it would be via dreams, however, as the quickest, easiest and safest route, and there are numerous examples in the books to serve as a precedent for this idea.  I understand what you're saying about the Forsaken meeting in WH, but that scene has more of quickly-called-emergency-meeting feel to me.  As for Moiraine, it may be that her Bond with Lan is somewhat unique, or that she isn't very good at reading her Warder's emotional state.  Of course, I lent my copy of NS out to a friend so I can't quote, but there are two interesting passages at the very end of that book when Moiraine Bonds Lan.  First is that Moiraine is surprised when Lan can read her own repressed anguish over the deaths in Canluum, and second is her description of Lan's presence in her head.  All she thinks that she can feel is &quot;all steely hard edges&quot; (I think).  I'll expand on that point in the response below to MatsEyeView.<br /><br /><b>MatsEyeView:</b>  You're absolutely correct that much of this theory is based in the idea that RJ isn't making mistakes.  I have a feeling that this is a <i>very</i> contentious issue, although it doesn't get discussed much.  My response to NaClH2O just above is an example.  Consider the following two quotes: &quot;Frowning, Moiraine scanned the crowd, not that she could make out much beyond the front row.  Lan could have been back among the columns.  She would not strain, though, or jump up on her toes like an anxious child.&quot; (TSR, <i>Into the Heart</i>)  &quot;Luckily, she (Demira) had been in Caemlyn before, some years ago, and Stevan would be waiting at The Crown of Roses, a beacon she could use to guide her if it came to that.&quot;  How come Moiraine can't tell if Lan is within a hundred feet of her, but Demira can use Stevan to guide her back to the inn?  You'll also notice that in the confrontation between Moiraine and Lan in TGH, <i>Watchers</i>, that Moiraine never references the Warder bond, even though throughout that scene she is trying to gauge Lan's emotional response to her comments.  I almost included the quotes, and the idea that Moiraine's Warder bond is somewhat uncharacteristic in the body of the theory, but linda_sedai convinced me to omit it, because many people think that RJ has changed the nature of the bond due to plot constraints.  My personal feeling is that either RJ is a deliberate writer with an attention to detail, or a hack.  Unfortunately, we won't really know until he finishes this series.  I guess this is kind of like the ultimate RAFO <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><b>Moiraine44:</b> Thanks, much! I'm glad you enjoyed it! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><b>jofraz:</b> You may be right about Lan in NS, but foreshadowing is usually fairly subtle.  RJ all but beats us over the head with the fact that Lan does <i>not</i> like Aes Sedai, or want anything to do with them.  Also, what's the point of foreshadowing when 99% of the people reading the story know how it's going to end already?  I touched on part of your comment about the Warder bond up in the response to Squilo.  The other thing that strikes me about that scene is the lack of eulogy or salute or prayer.  Lan could have performed it privately, but I find it interesting that RJ omitted it if that is the case.  That, and the quote about darkness that I closed the piece with; that one gives me the shivers when I read it.  My point about Lan's teachings in TGH really come back to the concept of his honor.  He should be working to bolster his Aes Sedai's influence with Rand, but instead winds up making Rand more intractable.  He could be sympathizing with Rand's plight, but I think twenty years following his oathe to Moiraine would override that.  In my view, Sheathing the Sword is really damning, especially if you examine the battle with Ba'alzamon at the end of TGH.  Rand is actually doing alright, he's not winning, but not losing either, and he's filled with the One Power.  When Ba'alzamon taunts him about Egwene's captivity, instead of lashing out with the Power and accepting his identity, he recalls Lan's teaching and nearly allows Ba'alzamon to kill him.  <br /><br /><b>Columbo:</b> Thanks!  Critical comments are very helpful in improving writing, and I'll try to make any extended introduction more engaging next time I write a piece like this.  To be honest, Lan is one of my favorite characters too, and, if this is true, I hope that RJ devises some way for him to redeem himself. <br /><br /><b>GreenGaidin:</b> I don't think Lan was &quot;turned&quot; so much as slowly corrupted by his own need for vengence and his extended presence in the Blight.  It actually isn't stated explicitly in NS that he is fighting for the Light.  Consider this quote: &quot;And now, close enough to a thousand years after Hawkwing's empire died, the Aiel came, burning and killing.  It <i>had</i> to be a pattern.  Surely the Dark One must have directed them.  Lan would never have come south if he had not believed that.&quot;  All this really tells us is that Lan came south because he believed the Dark One directed the Aiel, not that he is <i>fighting</i> the Aiel due to that.  I can't agree with your assessment of the Shadow's strategy in EotW, either.  Narg doesn't kill Rand right away.  The Myrddraal in the Stag and Lion could have killed Rand, but didn't.  The Shadowspawn outside Baerlon and Shadar Logoth are all using catchpoles to capture the boys.  Ba'alzamon spends most of the dream sequences trying to entice Rand into following him, and even Aginor and Balthamel at the Eye do not try very hard to kill Rand.  For the Warder bond and Moiraine, check out my responses to MatsEyeView and NaClH2O.<br /><br /><b>Deadsy:</b>  Dashiva/Osan'gar did hear Rand talk about cleansing the taint in PoD, but in WH, at the Forsaken meeting before Moridin and Cyndane's arrival, he doesn't think that it is possible.  While Rand isn't 100% sure of his plan, he does mention the Choeden Kal to Nynaeve and Lan when he is describing his plan in Caemlyn.  Lanfear might also assume that the CK would work to cleanse the taint, but Rand never tells her about that plan.  She has no reason to think that he would use the CK in that manner.  The thing with using Shadar Logoth to carry out the plan is that no other place will work.  If Moridin figured out everything about Rand's plan on his own, why didn't he figure that part out as well?  It's the absolute certainty that Moridin has in the rest of the details, while lacking the critical location, that is suspicious to me.  I don't think that Cyndane could be referencing any channeler other than Nynaeve, either.  The only other woman that she could mean is Alivia.  It's questionable how much the bad guys know about that former damane, and a moot point considering that Alivia also left with Rand in utter secrecy from Caemlyn.<br /><br /><b>MJJSedai:</b> In truth, I think Lan has pledged his soul to war.  To an extent, this could be interpreted as pledging one's soul to the Dark One.  After all, the death, chaos and pain that war entails is the bread and butter of the DO.  Remember, too, that the intuitive sense that you have developed about Lan's character was devised by the author.  IMO, RJ is setting up that intuitive feeling to surprise everyone later in the story, similar to the surprises he gave us with Melihndra and Ingtar.  It's also difficult to say exactly what Lan knows, because he is so much in the background of the story.  I think  the fact Lan doesn't have any POVs is very indicative that RJ is hiding something about his character.  I take your points about Moiraine and Lan acting as mother and father figures to heart, but consider the degree to which RJ uses ideas like this to oppose as much as compliment each other.  In many ways, RJ has used male-ism to symbolize the darker side of human nature; Lan is the darker, more violent father figure counterpart to Moiraine and Nynaeves more compassionate mother figure.  In terms of the White Tower coddeling Rand, consider when Lan passed on his lesson about Sheathing the Sword: in the courtyard right before Rand rides out and away from the (over-)protecting influence of the Aes Sedai.  Also, Sheathing the Sword represents the pinnacle of self-sacrifice in one sense, but in another it represents the ultimate failure of responsibility.  &quot;Death is a feather, duty a mountain&quot; and all that.  This is doubly true for Rand, because with his death he ducks the difficult job it is going to be for him to fulfill his responsibility to humankind.  I don't agree with the idea that Moiraine was able to mitigate Lan's feelings for Aes Sedai in general.  With Bukama's death, Moiraine actually justifies Lan's feelings of mistrust, and the Black Sister Mereana probably doesn't help, either.  Also, we would have to assume that the mitigation happened somewhere in the final pages of the book, because Lan is clearly not that impressed with Moiraine's behavior in his POVs after they meet.  You're analogy to Siuan and Moiraine's respective reactions to each other's death is apt, except for one thing.  Lan swore an oath to protect Moiraine, and he ultimately failed in that oath.  Considering the importance Lan places on his word, I still think his reaction is somewhat understated to Moiraine's death.<br /><br /><b>hwlrmnky:</b> I was really going for opening people up to the idea, so I was happy to read your comment.  I'm not trying to say this is definitely the case, but I really do think that Lan gets a pass as a suspect for many things because people <i>know</i> there is no way he could be a Darkfriend.  When you step back and truly investigate whether he could have been involved in some of the things that happened, however, you begin to see how his involvement would clear up a lot of unexplained things that have happened.<br /><br /><b>Cannoli:</b> I think you actually make a very good point, but Lan's resentment toward Aes Sedai seems very vociferous and deep-seated.  It's also based on a very valid premise: the White Tower abandoned Malkier, and Aes Sedai are manipulative schemers.  Other examples from the story (eg; Mat's marriage, Nynaeve becoming Aes Sedai, Perrin becoming a Lord) have a different flavor to me, and don't resolve themselves quite as abruptly and without apparent explanation.<br /><br /><b>bme:</b> That's a good point, but I'm not sure how valid it is.  Lan tries to drive Nynaeve away in EotW and TGH, and seems intent on avoiding his own feelings.  It makes me question whether that love would then be a motivating factor in his relationship with Rand, especially since it doesn't seem to motivate him at all with the other Emond's Field boys.  Also, he began teaching Rand before they got to Baerlon, and before Nynaeve joined the group.  This was not at Moiraine's direction, even then: &quot;Moiraine watched without expression, but the next evening she told Lan to continue with the lessons.&quot; (<i>Choices</i>)  One of the interesting parts of that episode, is that Lan begins to teach the boys about <i>ko'di</i>, but stops when he realizes that Rand already knows about and doesn't ever bring it up again.  Why doesn't he continue teach Mat and Perrin about it?<br /><br /><b>Chel Vanin:</b> I agree that opportunity is not enough to categorically conclude that one person is responsible over another, but it does allow us to investigate those that had the opportunity to perform such deeds.  The truth is that Lan is the only one who had the opportunity to do <i>all</i> the things I cited, and some more besides, which is why I think he deserves to be scrutinized when it comes to these discussions.  Many people, however, don't even consider him as a suspect because of who he is.<br /><br /><b>The Hand of Rob:</b> I definitely respect your gut feeling.  It's pretty much the same as mine, but RJ does love shocking twists in his storyline.<br /><br /><b>bcondray:</b> I would agree that rats are the source of Moridin's info, except for a couple of things.  Shienarans are probably vigilant against Shadoweyes in their own homes, and three Aes Sedai may be enough to drive them away in any case.  Also, having rats as spies still doesn't explain Ba'alzamon's mis-statment about Moiraine telling Rand he's the Dragon Reborn; someone directly eavesdropping on that conversation should have gotten that detail correct.  As for plot twists, consider that Nynaeve was arguably Rand's most fervent supporter from the very beginning.  It could be a very nice counterpoint to a character that has been betraying Rand from the very beginning.  It also sets Lan up to be in a position where he must choose between his war and his love. <br /><br /><b>Adan:</b> So far as I know, yes it's true that Lan has never directly stated he fought the Shadow.  I've actually transcribed most of the statements Lan has made throughout the series into my notes, but I'll add the caveat here on the BB that I could very well have missed one.  He refers a few times to his war, but so far as I know he never explicitly connects it to an opponent.  In a sense, I think this might make Lan's character even better, and the story stronger as a whole.  Lan embodies war and battle, and I'm thinking that one of RJ's themes will be that these things are inherently evil when they are taken to the extremes.  Even honor, when it isn't mitigated by other characteristics such as compassion, can be evil in its extreme form.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Diomedes <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-05-18 19:02:56
subject: <b>Another, light-hearted comment.</b>
body:
Would RJ write a prequel and expect us to read it, if Lan were the Dragon Reborn`s nemesis?<br /><br />I think not. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2004-05-18 22:28:02
subject: <b>something to add</b>
body:
if lan were the spy why would there be a purpose for Padan Fain?!?....think about it.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-05-18 22:32:40
subject: <b>Not Luc's cousin, Isam's</b>
body:
I voted no because the first problem I had with this theory is that is attributed the comment from &quot;Luc&quot; that he had hoped to kill his cousin and the wench where the cousin is Rand.<br /><br />Both times I've read the series I've assumed that was &quot;Isam&quot; talking and he had hoped to kill Lan, his cousin.<br /><br />Given that he attacked the bed where Lan and Ny would have been sleeping, it doesn't make sense to me that it was Luc referring to Rand.<br /><br />That's my .02.


created: 2004-05-19 13:52:11
subject: <b>I Agree</b>
body:
&quot;Both times I've read the series I've assumed that was &quot;Isam&quot; talking and he had hoped to kill Lan, his cousin.<br /><br />Given that he attacked the bed where Lan and Ny would have been sleeping, it doesn't make sense to me that it was Luc referring to Rand.&quot;<br /><br />Beside, it makes more sense that Slayer would be sent to kill Lan and Nynaeve than Rand, even though Rand couldn't channel at the time.<br /><br />If you put together that Cyndane knows that Rand is with a woman strong enough to use the CK, the fact Moridin wants to avoid killing Rand unless he has no other choice and the fact he suspects Rand will use the CK to cleanse saidin than it's rather obvious Slayer was sent to deprive Rand of Nynaeve and that Isam would enjoy getting rid of Lan at the same time.<br /><br />--------------<br /><br />Great theory Diomedes, it's really well done and a great read.<br /><br />I voted no because I think it's fairly obvious Ishamael would have used Lan to kill Rand at some point in TDR, when he felt he was out of other options to control him.  Why go with complex plans (such as assigning Carridin this job and punish him for failing) if he had an agent much closer that he could contact easily and who could fulfil the assignement rapidly?<br /><br />Lan being Ishamael's agent also doesn't really fit with the events in TEotW, IMHO - as others have mentionned.  <br /><br />About communicating with Lan through his dreams, correct me if I'm wrong but aren't a warder's dreams always shielded the same as his AS? <br /><br />If the AS do this through the bond, that would mean Ishamael could not communicate with Lan that way when Moiraine was around and likely could not do it afterward as Myrelle inherited his bond right away.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="images/personalsmilies/30778.gif" />Wheel of Time Reference Library : Articles, maps, charts and misc.<img src="images/personalsmilies/30778.gif" /><br /><br /></font><p><a href="http://13depository.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">The Thirteenth Depository - a Wheel of Time Blog</a></p><p></p>


created: 2004-05-19 14:58:32
subject: <b>His nephew and the wench</b>
body:
It's nephew not cousin. I seem to remember someone saying that the two were the same in their language. It is Luc referring to his sisters son, also after talking to his employers he switches to Isam to go and kill wolves.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">In no particular order:<br /><br />Rav<br />Belal's Girl<br />Lady Isa<br />Phil Reborn<br /><br />It was nice.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-05-19 17:18:49
subject: <b>taking a different angle...</b>
body:
A thought occurred to me while I thinking about what questions I'd ask RJ. One question that he is asked a lot is which character he likes most/is most like (personally I find this sort of question to be a wasted opportunity, but that's me). Anyway, in this case it actually may not be such a wasted opportunity. His rather scripted answer is that he strives to be like Lan, but his wife says that he is like Lioal. <br /><br />So, would RJ really strive to be like Lan if he's setting him up as the big traitor to everything good? Or if he is some unwitting dupe of a traitor? Not likely. RJ's own ascertains about wanting to be like Lan imply that Lan is exactly as good and noble as he seems to be. <br /><br />Of course, RJ does have a somewhat sadistic streak in him (evidenced from his enjoyment at the Asmo situation).<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Need a book to read - check out my blog for ideas.</font><p><a href="http://nethspace.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">Neth Space</a></p><p></p>


created: 2004-05-19 22:14:00
subject: <b>Dreams</b>
body:
I have been wondering about Lan for a long time, especially the total lack of his POV. I do not think Lan is a knowing darkfriend or anything of the sort, but he may have been infiltrated in some way. Remember that Lanfear claimed to be able to break down an Aes Sedai dream shield. She can probably do the same with a warder. An even worse possibility is that Myrelle is a Black Ajah, and allowing this somehow. The bond thins with distance as well. It may be that Lan's dream shield thins as well, and Cyndane has an easy time reading his dreams.<br /><br />Another question is why Lan went cold and deathly after Moiraine died. I think most people accept that she pushed Lan out of her mind before attacking Lanfear, she transfered the bond to Myrelle before dying (if she did die). Since she probably didn't really die anyway, that makes the question even stronger. Where does the deathly cold come from? I think it is from some other factor internal to Lan, Lan's betrayal of something. Normally, given Lan's character as we see it, if he betrayed the Light, he would kill himself, probably in some hopeless battle in the blight. But the new bond to Myrelle, and his love for Nynaeve prevents that from happening. He wants to die, but can't make himself commit suicide. So he is trying to atone for the betrayal, but his own code does not allow atonement. Thus his death wish. Lan is the most difficult and complex character in the series. An onion, with many layers.


created: 2004-05-19 22:31:21
subject: <b>Oops, a bit more...</b>
body:
A couple more points to add to the last...<br /><br />Just reread the section where Moiraine confronts Tom in the Stone of Tear. She says &quot;I will see you again,&quot; a clear statement of fact. Old news, of course, but she goes on later to think about how she would &quot;bring him to heel&quot;. A lot of speculation about Moiraine marrying Tom, even though Blues can't marry. More interesting is the idea that both Tom, and now Lan according to this theory, have strong motives to hate Aes Sedai. Both might want to make trouble for the White Tower. Put a man like Tom, with his skills in the Great Game, and Lan with his history and connections together with Moiraine, and Aes Sedai who willingly and without coercion pledged herself to obey Rand's every word, and you spell real trouble for the White Tower. And Egg, the Amyrlin, knows exactly what Moiraine did and why.<br /><br />I expect fireworks when they all get together again! Unfortunately that doesn't look to be able to come together for another couple books at least, unless the next book is all about this. What was the title of the next book? 'Knife of Dreams...' Could be fun.


created: 2004-05-20 00:14:10
subject: <b>Anyone know a website for that interview?</b>
body:
kcf, I also remember seeing that interview with RJ.  IIRC, he said that he wanted to be like Lan when he was younger, but now thought of himself as Tam.  I also remember that I didn't think it ruled out the possibility that Lan's zeal for his war and honor could lead him to evil after reading it.  I'll have to see if I can find it on the web since I didn't see that particular question in the RJ Interview FAQ.<br /><br />I always enjoy getting an extra two bits, Egwene's Twin, but I really can't agree.  In addition to that quote in the body of the theory that Quoth is referring to, here is another one that I almost included.  It's from the beginning of Slayer's pov in <i>Out of Thin Air</i>:  &quot;Stopping beside the bed, he carefully unsheathed the two poisoned daggers and stepped out of the Unseen World into the waking.  As he did, he became Luc.  It seemed appropriate.&quot;  I'm not sure what leads you to believe that Isam is performing these killings, but I think it's clearly Luc.<br /><br />Thanks for the input DomA, because I hadn't even considered that part about Aes Sedai shielding their Warder's dreams.  Of course, Lanfear is able to spy on the Aiel Wise Ones, and Dreamwalkers might be more capable in this particular arena than Moiraine.  Ishamael has also shown that he is pretty savvy in the Unseen World, and I think it is within the bounds of reason that he might be able to circumvent Moiraine's defenses.  I also think Lan's ten years living in the Blight may make him more susceptible to this kind of thing.<br /><br />The fact that Ishamael finally decided to truly destroy Rand at the end of TDR is a powerful counterargument.  One of my main ideas, however, is that Lan is being used as a source of information, and Ishamael might want to keep him in place as a contingency against failing to kill him.  It's also difficult to know exactly when Ishamael came to that decision to destroy Rand.  Ultimately, Ishamael is trying to manipulate Rand into serving his needs, one way or another, and Carridin is part of that overall scheme.  Ishamael needs Rand to be Lews Therin reincarnate, and I think Carridin and all Ishamael's other Darkfriends are being used to manipulate Rand into that role.  My guess is that Ishamael knows that Carridin and his ilk can't kill the Dragon Reborn.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Diomedes <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-05-20 23:45:44
subject: <b>First of all, wow...</b>
body:
I NEVER, EVER, suspected Lan of being a Judas for Rand... but you know what, just knowing RJ's style of writing, I think that (with all of the evidence you have presented) Lan is a much more likely candidate than Mat or Perrin.<br />I vote no, just because I think Lan is cool, but you know, I actually am fairly suspicious of Lan, now.<br /><br />I'll be keeping my eye on him...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Samshaidar Mhael<br />The Leader of the Destroyers of Shadow <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-blue.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-red.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/borg.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-green.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-purple.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />I am immortal, I have inside me blood of kings <br />I have no rival, no man can be my equal<br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-05-21 17:37:58
subject: <b>Not a believer</b>
body:
While the theory was well thought out and written, I'm too stubborn and opinionated to accept Lan betraying Rand.  As for the oddity in his bond to Moiraine, I have two things to say.  When Moiraine has difficulty sensing Lan's emotions, it may be 1) because Lan is probably as hard as Rand and has been for a long time, which would limit his emotional response, and 2) he probably has some variant of the kerchief trick that Min tries to use in WH, some way of masking the bond.  <br />Also, I don't think any conflict of duty would cause Lan to betray Rand in any way.  His bond gives him a duty to Moiraine, and not only would that give him a duty to minimize grieving for her after her &quot;death&quot;, but it would lead him to want to do what is best for the Dragon Reborn, fullfilling Moiraine's quest.  <br />As for Adan's comment about Lan being an embodyment of war and honor taken too far, I disagree.  Trollocs represent war taken too far, and I think his honor is tempered by his duty to Moiraine and his feelings for Nynaeve.


created: 2004-05-21 21:49:12
subject: <b>You are right</b>
body:
and you are right.  I should have pulled out the book and checked before posting :-}<br /><br />The section opened and closed with Isam and I didn't remember the Luc part until you mentioned it.  <br /><br />As you said, the specific word is &quot;nephew&quot;, not &quot;cousin&quot;.  So, couldn't have been Isam after Lan.<br /><br />Lan is one of, if not, my favorite characters so I won't support your theory.  No specific reason or lack of support.  Just that I don't WANT to believe it of Lan.<br />Sorry.


created: 2004-05-22 11:53:17
subject: <b>Interesting idea and impressive if not mathematical demo..</b>
body:
I had never thought of Lan being on the shadow's side but after reading your theory, I wonder.. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br />Especially the fact that when you fight something too long and with no hope for winning it, you grow accustomed to that fight, and we know that Lan's reason to live is that fight, he'll probably do anything to keep it (survival instinct is ingrained deep in every human being, even if we're not allways aware of it). Maybe his relationship with Nynaeve will change his view of the world/life and she'll maybe give him another reason to live.. Then he could confess and he might swith allegiances and fight for Rand at Tarmon Gaidon.<br />And I think a writer need to have a &quot;spy&quot; on the good guys side that won't be easily uncovered by readers or where would be the suspense <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> .<br />In short: Congratulations!! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="purple">Lady Isa</font><br /><br /><font color="pink">nominated WoTboard's Moiraine AND Mesaana</font><br /><font color="blue">Member of the Fearsome Four</font><br /><font color="crimson">Bonded to Sidious and Phil</font><br /><font color="green">Cindy is one <i>Green</i> Redneck</font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <font color="violet"><b>July 12th 2008</b></font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-05-27 12:23:19
subject: <b>We now have indirect evidence of Lan as a good guy.</b>
body:
Before I get to that, though, consider:<br /><br />One point you make is that in NS, Lan felt Malkier was abandoned. In truth, Moiraine explained to him that the Aes Sedai got there too late, a deep secret of the WT.<br /><br />Another thing to consider is that all evidence of DFs and Forsaken show absolutely no love toward anyone. Lan`s feelings toward Nynaeve are not faked, IMO.<br /><br />But to get to the Title: RJ is going to finish WoT before he does the 2 prequels. If Lan is a DF/Judas, then I doubt many books will be sold pertaining to Moiraine/Lan arriving in the TR just in the nick of time! Lan seems to be a favorite of most fans on this site.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2004-05-29 13:23:02
subject:
<b>I think I'll do a sequel <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /></b>

body:
I was very happy to see that some people are still posting BB comments almost a month after this theory got posted <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />  I was very glad to gain some converts in Samshaidar and Lady Isa <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Samshaidar, if you want to see some suspicious behavior on Lan's part, you should check out his chapters in CoS.  I think everyone's favorite Warder does and says some very suspicious or out-of-character things.<br /><br />Lady Isa, I think you really hit the nail on the head with your comment about Lan and Nynaeve's relationship.  I had considered trying to incorporate my ideas about that relationship into this theory, but I hadn't figured out what to say about it yet, and it would have made this theory even longer <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/oh.gif" border="0" />  Anyway, that's what I want to do the sequel about, so stay tuned <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />aiglosreforged, I totally agree with your assessment of Lan's ability to deaden the flow of emotions into Moiraine through the bond.  I think that's how he could have kept his own agenda secret from Moiraine.  I don't agree, however, that his <i>bond</i> gives him a duty to Moiraine.  I think that Lan's oath at the end of NS is what truly ties him to Moiraine in Lan's own mind, more so than the bond itself.  I actually wonder if Moiraine's passing of the bond to Myrelle might constitute a kind of betrayal to Lan.  Throughout NS, Lan thinks derisively about Aes Sedai manipulating people, and he doesn't view the idea of being passed off to Myrelle very positively in TGH. <br /><br />Ahh, jofraz!  Last in this post, but never least <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" />  I would point out that after Moiraine's explanation, Lan says to himself, &quot;Almost, I can believe...&quot;  It never really explains what he is referring to, but I think it can be said in general that he at least harbors some doubts about Moiraine's explanation.  Also, I'm positive that Lan's feelings for Nynaeve are genuine, too.  That's one of the reasons why I think he'll end up as one of the most intriguing characters in the whole series.  Consider Ingtar, for a second, and his reasons for becoming a Darkfriend.  The Shadow is very good at discovering the weaknesses in a person's character that they can exploit.  Greed, ambition, lust, doubt, despair.  I think Lan's obsession with his war provides a weakness.  Actually, I think his rigid sense of honor does, too.  In any case, I always find it interesting to go back and see if I can pick up on suspicious behavior in the characters that end up being more than meets the eye.  Remember Padan Fain, in EotW?  After reading it the first time, I was interested in watching his suspicious behavior in Emond's Field during subsequent re-reads.  Like I said before, if this is true I think it makes Lan much more interesting, not less, and I for one will still be on my toes waiting for those prequels.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Diomedes <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-06-01 20:31:06
subject: <b>Defending Lan, in rebuttal</b>
body:
You have stated that Lan never has said he fights the DO.<br /><br />In tEotW, The Blight<br /><br />During the conversation with Nynaeve, where she practically proposed to him, his response was:<br /><br />&quot;All I have is a sword, and a war I cannot win, but can never stop fighting.&quot;<br /><br />He is talking about his battle against the Dark.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2004-06-02 15:31:55
subject: <b>Clearly, Lan <i>implies</i> that his war is against the Shadow.</b>
body:
My point, however, is that Lan never <i>explicitly</i> says, &quot;I fight the Shadow&quot; or &quot;My war is against the Dark One.&quot;  Others, notably Moiraine and Agelmar, state that for Lan, but he himself is never that precise in phrasing.<br /><br />Actually, think about the idea that he doesn't think his war can ever be won, too.  He and Moiraine have saved the Dragon Reborn from the forces of the Dark One throughout the first book, and they are on their way to fight those forces in a pivotal confrontation at the Eye of the World.  One might expect Lan to be a little more optimistic, since the plan is for Rand to win the Last Battle vs. the Dark One.  Instead he seems to be stating as fact the idea that he <i>cannot</i> win his war.  This seems a strange to me, if his war is the same war that Moiraine and Rand are fighting.  So, I interpret this to mean that Lan's personal war is somehow different from the broader struggle against the Shadow in Lan's own mind.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Diomedes <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-06-03 13:14:50
subject: <b>Lost war</b>
body:
I think that reason why Lan thinks that he cannot win the war is that Malkier is gone. Or he failed as a king of Malkier.


created: 2004-06-08 17:47:39
subject: <b>Knowing About the Horn</b>
body:
Just a .02 cent thought. You state that one interesting piece of info pointing to a Judas is that the DO apparently knew right where the Horn was in Fal Dara. But couldn't someone who was attuned to the dagger (which was kept inside it) been drawn to that, instead? As were other DF's on EotW? Just a thought.<br /><br />


created: 2004-06-10 13:51:48
subject: <b>AngryDruid makes a good point</b>
body:
But that still doesn't explain how Ishamael knows about the Horn.  He, or one of his minions, may be able to feel the SL dagger and say, &quot;I feel the dagger over <i>there</i>&quot; but that still doesn't reveal anything about the Horn.  In other words, they might know that the dagger is in that chest, but that feeling won't provide them any information on what else is inside the chest.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Diomedes <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-06-12 17:47:38
subject: <b>Mat had the dagger</b>
body:
<br />The dagger wasn't put in the box until Rand took it back from Fain.<br /><br />Anyone could have told Ishy where the Horn was, it was in a big golden box which Lord Agelmar presented to the Amyrlin. I doubt it could have been hidden very well when being transported between locations. There could be a hundred different people in Fal Dara who know about the box and since Ishy knows the contents he knows where the Horn is.<br /><br />I don't buy this theory, I find it to be like the Longest Theory, it ties together lots of weak pieces of evidence to make a case. For example the thing about Lan not saying his war is against the shadow, who is it against then. He doesn't need to say it because it's obvious to the people he's talking to. I don't know why he would avoid saying it if he was a darkfriend.<br /><br />I would continue but I haven't read it for about a week so I can't remember it exactly.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">In no particular order:<br /><br />Rav<br />Belal's Girl<br />Lady Isa<br />Phil Reborn<br /><br />It was nice.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-06-16 14:05:01
subject: <b>Agelmar presented the chest to Siuan?</b>
body:
I don't think I would characterize it that way.  Siuan talks about Agelmar giving her the chest as soon as she arrrived, but there is no mention of any presentation-type ceremony.  It seems like he did it in private to avoid the unnecessary spread of rumor.<br /><br />Nor is there any evidence that hundreds of people knew about the Horn's presence in Fal Dara.  If they did, Hunters wouldn't be wandering all over Randland looking for the thing.  They would all head to Fal Dara and attempt to pick up the trail from there.<br /><br />The fact that Hunters are still all over the place is pretty good evidence that the details of the Horn's presence in Fal Dara was kept very secret.  If that kind of news got out it would have spread all over the West by now.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Diomedes <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-06-22 18:28:59
subject: <b>You've done great job, but...</b>
body:
I don't agree with every and each point you make here.<br /><br />First of all, Ishamael knowledge could come from different source - rat, ravens, DF. And we know that Fal Dara has many DF. Ingtar for example.<br /><br />Second, as it was pointed, knowledge of Rand's plans about cleansing saidin came from Dashiva. Not Lan. Using CK - from Cyndane. It wouldn't require genious among them to add two and two.<br /><br />Third, Luc's knowledge about Rand came from one of the Chosen. We know that there were DF among Maidens, among Aes Sedai, etc. I don't see difficulties for the Shadow to figure out Rand birth secrets.<br /><br />At so forth. A lot of your points may have and have(!) much simplier explanations.<br />


created: 2004-06-25 13:04:39
subject: <b>Notice</b>
body:
<br /><br />I didn't say there was a presentation ceremony nor did I say hundreds of people knew about the horn.<br /><br />I said that it would be hard to avoid notice of the box being moved from and back to Fal Dara's vault. When I said a hundred people I said &quot;could&quot;, meaning that there is no way of knowing how many people knew that there was a large golden box in the vault. <br /><br />A golden box kept under constant guard would attract notice and Ishy had a month to gather intelligence on it. You can't narrow  down his source of information.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">In no particular order:<br /><br />Rav<br />Belal's Girl<br />Lady Isa<br />Phil Reborn<br /><br />It was nice.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-07-05 11:20:36
subject: <b>I disagree</b>
body:
Nice, well thought out theory but....<br /> <br />        First of all Lan's an intelligent guy. It doesen't take him long to figure out Egwene's position in Salidar even though all he could hear would have been snatches and he was using his sword besides (refer &quot;A Morning of Victory&quot; in CoS). D'you think that a person who is obviously very intelligent is going to fool himself and think that the DO must not be sealed away so that he could finish his war?&quot;In truth, I think Lan has pledged his soul to war. To an extent, this could be interpreted as pledging one's soul to the Dark One. After all, the death, chaos and pain that war entails is the bread and butter of the DO.&quot;<br />        He has hardly pledged himself to war per se. He is not a lover of war. He does risk his life in the Blight and seeks war but that is for vengeance and with the solid knowledge of a righteous cause behind him. Hardly the type of &quot;war&quot; the DO spreads. Lan does not mindlessly fight all those who stand in his way of fighting the Shadow like Mordeth and Shadar Lagoth, which are excellent examples of fighting against evil becoming evil. I feel Lan has enough emotional stability to resist such an otcome.<br /><br />       &quot;Also, Sheathing the Sword represents the pinnacle of self-sacrifice in one sense, but in another it represents the ultimate failure of responsibility. &quot;Death is a feather, duty a mountain&quot; and all that.&quot;<br />        Death as a way of shrugging off responsibility is certainly like a feather. But, sheathing the sword is actually an acceptance of the fact that your death id necessary for your duty to be fulfilled. At that moment(fight with Ishamel in Falme) Rand's duty lay in saving Egwenes life. He was certainly not sure he was the Dragon Reborn and nor did he know what duties that entailed.   <br />       &quot;In my view, Sheathing the Sword is really damning, especially if you examine the battle with Ba'alzamon at the end of TGH. Rand is actually doing alright, he's not winning, but not losing either, and he's filled with the One Power. When Ba'alzamon taunts him about Egwene's captivity, instead of lashing out with the Power and accepting his identity, he recalls Lan's teaching and nearly allows Ba'alzamon to kill him.&quot; <br />As I pointed out above, as far as Rand knew his duty lay in saving Egwene's life. <br />True, he was not losing the battle, but how he fared affected the battle between Seanchan and the Heroes of Valere. When Rand sheathed his sword, he was doing what duty demanded. <br />    He did get wounded, but that wound (and another) have already helped in delivering a heavy blow to the shadow and may yet have to play a part. <br />    Now, I'm not saying that Lan taught Rand about StS with all this in mind,but it 'could' have been the Wheel weaving.<br /> <br />       Now, I would also like to address your(Diomedes') contension that Lan did not grieve enough for Moirane.<br />       I expect that apart from having to bear the shock of an old frien dying, Lan has also felt the bong snap and its being transferred to Myrelle. You don't expect him to sing songs in praise of Moirane so soon after her death and after having suffered such a shock do you? Further, he has realised that his bond passing to Myrelle means he can never be Nynaeve's.<br /><br />        &quot;Actually, think about the idea that he doesn't think his war can ever be won, too. He and Moiraine have saved the Dragon Reborn from the forces of the Dark One throughout the first book, and they are on their way to fight those forces in a pivotal confrontation at the Eye of the World. One might expect Lan to be a little more optimistic, since the plan is for Rand to win the Last Battle vs. the Dark One. Instead he seems to be stating as fact the idea that he cannot win his war. This seems a strange to me, if his war is the same war that Moiraine and Rand are fighting. So, I interpret this to mean that Lan's personal war is somehow different from the broader struggle against the Shadow in Lan's own mind.&quot;<br /> <br />       Moiranes plan is for Rand to defeat the DO too. Yet, I don't see her bubbling with optimism even as far in as the 5th book. Lan knows that they won't be able to finish the DO in one day and every battle won is only one closer to TG.<br /><br />      I feel that Lan being a disillusioned man of the Light who has gone over to the Dark in despair seems pretty remote. Certainly his distrust of Aes Sedai does not point to it(Look at our own Rand and Mat for instance).<br />     Still, by all means it has been an interesting theory Deomides.<br />P.S.: Sorry if I have been sarcastic. Its one of my worst failings.   <br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /> <br />


created: 2004-07-08 16:36:54
subject: <b>Quoth and fionwe1987</b>
body:
Sorry if I mis-paraphrased you Quoth, but that seemed to me what you were suggesting above.  Your clarification is a good point, but I still think that even the slightest hint that the Horn was in Fal Dara would have started many more rumors connecting the the two than what we have seen.<br /><br />As for the box itself being noticed, I think that is entirely possible, but it's not something that needs to be moved more than twice: once to get it from Agelmar's apartments to the strongroom at the end of EotW, and once to get it from the strongroom to the Amyrlin's quarters at the beginning of TGH.  I would point out that by the time the second one occurs Ishy has almost certainly already learned specifically about the Horn, not just some fancy chest that is interesting to Aes Sedai.  Unless you think the plan to steal the Horn was devised totally on the fly in a couple of hours?<br /><br />To respond to your points, fionwe: &quot;D'you think that a person who is obviously very intelligent is going to fool himself and think that the DO must not be sealed away so that he could finish his war?&quot;  No, not necessarily, but I think that Lan can be deluded and manipulated by the Shadow just like all the other DFs out there, including the Forsaken, IMO.  When the DO wins there isn't going to be anything left for humans to rule over, whether they have served the DO or not.<br /><br />&quot;He has hardly pledged himself to war per se.&quot;  I really disagree with you here - he has pledged himself to war.  His Malkieri oaths demand that he keep fighting even though the war is lost.  He is no longer fighting to save or avenge Malkier, two things that he simply cannot accomplish, but he has devoted his life to the attempt.  That is, he has devoted his life to continue battling, or devoted his life to war itself.<br /><br />&quot;Lan does not mindlessly fight all those who stand in his way of fighting the Shadow like Mordeth and Shadar Lagoth, which are excellent examples of fighting against evil becoming evil.&quot;  This is true, but it's not really my point.  Any war, whether justified or not, regardless of the humaneness of the tactics that are in use, is serving the DO to a certain extent.  Death, killing, and chaos always serve the DO, regardless of the motives behind it.<br /><br />&quot;He was certainly not sure he was the Dragon Reborn and nor did he know what duties that entailed.&quot;  That's true, but in this context it doesn't really matter what Rand does or doesn't believe.  The important thing is what Lan should know, and if he has any faith in Moiraine at all he knows that Rand is destined to be the Dragon Reborn.  If Lan knows that Rand needs to survive to Tarmon Gai'don, why would he teach Rand a philosophy that could potentially see the Dragon Reborn dead before he can save mankind?<br /><br />&quot;As I pointed out above, as far as Rand knew his duty lay in saving Egwene's life.&quot;  But what I said before still holds; it's not what Rand believes about his own duty, but what Lan believes about the Dragon Reborn's duty.  In those terms readers must assume that Lan and Moiraine see Rand's duty along similar lines, but, IMO, the concept of teaching Rand to Sheathe the Sword totally contradicts that idea.  That is, Moiraine would most certainly <i>not</i> approve of that lesson, although you are right that Lan could be at the mercy of Rand's ta'vereness.  I just don't think that is the most credible answer to this apparent contradiction.<br /><br />&quot;I expect that apart from having to bear the shock of an old frien dying, Lan has also felt the bong snap and its being transferred to Myrelle.&quot;  Ahh, but the bond didn't actually snap.  It was passed intact from Moiraine to Myrelle.  I can say that because Myrelle doesn't actually need to bond Lan, she just assumes control of the original bond that Moiraine created twenty years ago.  As for reacting to an old friend dying, it's important to remember that Lan has a soldier's world-view; he grieves for his comrades, but goes on to the next battle because that is what duty demands.  Lan's reaction to Bukama's death in NS is a great example; the man was a father-figure to Lan, one of Lan's last true connections to his homeland, and his mentor and companion for more than twenty years.  Lan reacts quite stoically to Bukama's death, in comparison to Moiraine's anyway, and the huge difference between these two reactions needs to be explained in some way.<br /><br />&quot;Further, he has realised that his bond passing to Myrelle means he can never be Nynaeve's.&quot;  I really can't agree with this.  Moiraine told Lan that Myrelle would only be a temporary caretaker for his bond.  He may not expect Myrelle to pass it on to Nynaeve, but I don't think he has any real reason to totally rule out the possibility, either.<br /><br />&quot;Yet, I don't see her bubbling with optimism even as far in as the 5th book.&quot;  She's not bubbling with optimism, but she firmly believes that Rand can make it TG and that he can win.  Lan's statement that he can &quot;never&quot; win his war is quite different.  Why wouldn't he cosider Rand's victory at TG a victory for himself as well?  If Lan does consider the two things to be the same, what leads him to state that he can &quot;never&quot; win his war and not something more appropriate like, &quot;it'll be very difficult?&quot;<br /><br />&quot;I feel that Lan being a disillusioned man of the Light who has gone over to the Dark in despair seems pretty remote.&quot;  I would agree with this statement, actually.  I think it more likely that Lan has never really been a man of the Light, because I don't think that RJ's world falls that simply into two such distinct categories as Light and Dark.  There are some that do fall fully into those categories, of course, but I also think that there are many shades of gray in between.  IMO, it's in those shades of gray that Lan falls, and it is also in those shades of gray that the Shadow has the greatest power to manipulate.<br /><br />&quot;P.S.: Sorry if I have been sarcastic. Its one of my worst failings.&quot;  Not at all <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />  You made some really great points, and I'm happy that you enjoyed reading the theory enough to want to comment on the BB.  A <b>quadruple</b> post of the same thing is a bit redundant, though <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Diomedes <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-12-22 07:34:30
subject: <b>Just a thought</b>
body:
Even though i disagree with this excellent theory, it really made me think... I was thinking about how Lan obviosly doesnt like Aes`sedai. Wouldnt it be possible, if Lan sees avenging Malkier as his goal in life, that he blames the Aes`sedai for Malkier`s &quot;death&quot;. That would be a &quot;reasonable&quot; explination if he really was a darkfriend. As you mentioned, he doesnt seem to think the Aes`sedai really tried to aid Malkier in the end. I`m surprised you didnt think of this possibility... Anyway, you think about it now! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perplexed.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smackhead.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /> LLT <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-01-06 12:57:57
subject: <b>Nonsense</b>
body:
Lan IS NOT A DARKFRIEND! when Mor and Mry bonded him they surley would have noticed that he was corrupt in some way. plus Lan's killed more shadowspawn than most of the other WoT characters. that's treason. anyway why would Lan help to protect people who where focused on looking after Rand, knowing that Rand would one day challenge his so called 'master'. AND....Lan has had many attempts to kill Rand but has never. Lan took Rand under his wing an dshowed him how to survive! U GO LAN!!!!!!!


created: 2005-02-25 08:22:32
subject: <b>Moiraine not knowing where Lan is.</b>
body:
MatsEyeView: You're absolutely correct that much of this theory is based in the idea that RJ isn't making mistakes. I have a feeling that this is a very contentious issue, although it doesn't get discussed much. My response to NaClH2O just above is an example. Consider the following two quotes: &quot;Frowning, Moiraine scanned the crowd, not that she could make out much beyond the front row. Lan could have been back among the columns. She would not strain, though, or jump up on her toes like an anxious child.&quot; (TSR, Into the Heart) &quot;Luckily, she (Demira) had been in Caemlyn before, some years ago, and Stevan would be waiting at The Crown of Roses, a beacon she could use to guide her if it came to that.&quot; How come Moiraine can't tell if Lan is within a hundred feet of her, but Demira can use Stevan to guide her back to the inn? You'll also notice that in the confrontation between Moiraine and Lan in TGH, Watchers, that Moiraine never references the Warder bond, even though throughout that scene she is trying to gauge Lan's emotional response to her comments. I almost included the quotes, and the idea that Moiraine's Warder bond is somewhat uncharacteristic in the body of the theory, but linda_sedai convinced me to omit it, because many people think that RJ has changed the nature of the bond due to plot constraints. My personal feeling is that either RJ is a deliberate writer with an attention to detail, or a hack. Unfortunately, we won't really know until he finishes this series. I guess this is kind of like the ultimate RAFO <br /><br /><br />If I recall correctly, Alanna(sp?) had a POV where she was thinking about her bond with Rand, I cant get a quote right now as my sister has my books. anyway she thinks something along the lines of &quot;Al'Thor has to know how to travel because sometime he is so far away I can tell little more than he is alive and seconds later he is close enough to know if he stumps his toe, (sorry bout that it was the only thing that came to mind) and sometime its like he dissapears from entirly. I would give anythink to know how he does that trick&quot;<br /><br />Ok sorry about the bad quote I will try to get the quote this weekend when I see my sister. The point is sometimes he dissapears from her head. Only two things come to mind that could do this, skiming and the Void. If he is already traveling why would he skim? Also remember that in TGH Lanfer tell Rand that some men keep themselves constantly wraped in the &quot;oneness&quot; as she called it. The first person that poped into my mind when she said the was Lan.


created: 2005-04-02 18:10:42
subject: <b>Arron</b>
body:
I really liked those last lines of yours... I certainly don't think Lan is a darkfriend, so why would he hide his location from Moiraine? You really explained that well. I would also like to add that the void and skimming aren't the only ways to mask the bond. It's also the trick where you imagine wrapping the &quot;bundle of emotions&quot; in a blanket or something. We learned of it in WH, but I can't remember exactly how it was described, but I'm fairly sure it was nothing like the void...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perplexed.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smackhead.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /> LLT <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-04-17 18:22:24
subject: <b>What ever!</b>
body:
I'm sorry, but I cannot believe that Lan is a darkfriend.  No, actually I'm not sorry.  His life's battle has been against the Dark One.  It's like saying that water is actually dry to say that Lan is a darkfriend.  As for a Judas that everyone is looking for, one of Mat's &quot;truths&quot; from one of the doorways is that he will have to give up half of the light to save the world.  Some scholars now think that Judas did not betray Jesus in the sense that he sold him out, but that he was the only one to love Jesus enough to do what had to be done, without question.  Perhaps Mat will have to betray Rand to help Rand win the Last Battle.  How, I don't know.  I guess that's a RAFO.


created: 2005-08-29 23:07:05
subject: <b>Incredible if true...</b>
body:
...but of course, Nynaeve will have to help redeem him in some way. Or just tug her braid and scowl furiously. Anyway, it would make a great plot twist if it were true, and his being one of Rand's mentors... it's a RAFO! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" /> Don't mess with me, fool. <br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perplexed.gif" border="0" /> I do believe I'm in a neverending state of confusion. Oh well!</font><p></p>


created: 2005-09-22 06:38:52
subject: <b>late answer</b>
body:
I do not agree with your arguments at all. <br /><br />1. Sheate the sword<br />From the first time I read this, I gave a completely different explanation to this comment. It is at that point of time very likely, but not 100% sure, that Rand is the DR. After all, he hadn't made the final test of Callandor. Lan knows, that this might be his last attemt to teach Rand something. I think that he is refering to the madness that inevetably comes to all male channelers (cleansing the taint was impossible until WH), and he is saying to Rand that whether he wins or looses TR, he has to die and that he would be better dead then in the hands of the Shadow. I think my interpretation is quite as valid as yours<br /><br />2. Cleansing the Taint<br />The parts of the plan known to the Shadow could be so easily have been inferred from Dashivas and Cyndanes knowledge, that the Forsaken would have had to have been too stupid to tie their own bootstrings too miss it. We know at least Moridin isn't that dumb, though I admit I've had my doubts about some of the others. <br /><br />3. Oaths <br />His remarks are about the oaths he cannot fulfill, that is, it is totally impossible to recreate Malkier as long as the Blight exists. I think Lan is smart enough to realize that, even if he succeeds in making a new nation where the old one was, it will no be the same as the one his parents died for. I also don't see this intrinsic desire for war you attribute to Lan


created: 2005-11-06 11:42:35
subject: <b>Ermm a small problem ....</b>
body:
Do you really think that moiraine would bond a dark friend and Moiraine knows enough about Lan that she would know if he was and Moiraine is not a darkfriend so therfore Lan isn't either. its a nice idea though and made logical sense good post


created: 2005-11-30 13:47:57
subject:
<b>Now we have some answers. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /></b>

body:
It definitely seems now that Moridin has a direct connection to Rand, probably since he wounded him at Falme with a TP tainted staff.<br /><br />Lan is still a good guy.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2006-02-07 19:21:10
subject: <b>Lan is a good guy. Nuff said.</b>
body:
But I will elaborate.  My real problem with this theory is that all the Forsaken are master plotters.  They could easily have construed information from their other informers into a coherent enough picture.  (That would explain the mistakes.)  And Lanfear knew about the Choedan Kal from when she was in Rhuidean.


created: 2007-05-08 19:19:44
subject: <b>wow</b>
body:
wow man, can i borrow your brain for my english exam?<br /><br />that was incredible and with the evidence provided it is difficult to disagree but i cannot fully agree<br /><br />lan is seemingly too intelligent to fall into something like that


created: 2007-07-20 12:56:51
subject: <b>WTF?</b>
body:
half that to me was gibberish disguised as a theory. the last comment about Lan telling Rand theres darknesss in both of us. that darkness is his hate for the blight, it didn't say he was obsessed with the whole blight, it said his battle was along the whole border. He pulled to the Blight because he wants so badly to destroy shadowspawn that killed his nation, his people. Put yourself in his position, if your entire people were wiped out, would you sit back and let others fight? or would you care enough to avenge all those like you?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> Shara is actually inhabited by bannanas <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /> The Band of the Red Hand is made of Ninjas like Mat<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /><br />Narg+Bela= Nela!<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/w00t.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /> ;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bela.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-05-12 18:34:01
subject:
<b>A very thoughtful theory, as usual <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /></b>

body:
You have laid out all the evidence, except for the swirling colors, now forming pictures in Mat`s and Perrin`s vision.<br /><br />This only adds to what you say. The Wheel/Pattern must have foreseen the non-communication problem and provided a means for the 3 to know what is happening with the others.<br />With the LB taking place throughout Westland (and other places), the 3 will be separated most, if not all, of the time. With the pictures, Perrin will know the time he must be with Rand (fulfilling Min`s Viewing.<br /><br />Can`t wait to read other`s comments.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2004-05-16 16:12:08
subject: <b>Min</b>
body:
This could be the 2nd time that Rand needs Perrin from that viewing by Min.<br />    A well thought out theory and a pleasure to read<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/crazy.gif" border="0" /> The Glory is in the charge, the survivability in staying at the back <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/crazy.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-05-17 13:14:04
subject: <b>I agree except</b>
body:
Mat's contribution can't be to help Rand learn to seperate his memories from others in his head because Mat can't seperate his own.<br /><br />On the conterary he has basicaly come to accept that they are all his memories and are now a part of who he is.<br /><br />Maby this means that he will help Rand accept LTT's memories and traits as part of his own.  But Rand has already seemed to have done a pretty good job on his own.  For example using LTT's talent for drawing to draw pic's of the renegades in Far Mading.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Serack Doushi</font><p></p>


created: 2004-05-18 09:50:09
subject: <b>An Excellent Theory</b>
body:
I must commend you on your well-written and well-researched theory. I never had thought of the three ta'veren in quite this way, but I think you hit the target with this theory. Great contribution!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">May you always walk in the Light,<br /><br />Adan, Jenn Aiel</font><p></p>


created: 2004-05-18 10:53:18
subject: <b>Can't say I agree...</b>
body:
Good theory, but the biggest problem as I see it is that for it to work, the characters would actually have to talk and communicate with each other. From what we have seen over and over again (indeed it is one of RJ's main themes throughout) is that there is no communication going on.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Need a book to read - check out my blog for ideas.</font><p><a href="http://nethspace.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">Neth Space</a></p><p></p>


created: 2004-05-18 16:54:26
subject: <b>Interesting, but no</b>
body:
I agree with kcf.  The three never talk to anyone of what's going on inside their heads, on the contrary, they all try very hard to keep it a secret.  An interesting idea, but I don't think so.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">The &quot;Original Genuine Article&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-05-19 11:30:57
subject: <b>Getting together</b>
body:
It is long overdue for the principals to get together, although a necessary part of the story being told. The six Wonder Kids have had to do their part to prepare the way for the final denouement of WoT.<br /><br />Now the time is at hand. The get-together is crucial: the Horn obtained, the meeting of the DR and the Amyrlin Seat, the Asha`man and Aes Sedai to ally, the Shaido brought to heel, etc.<br /><br />Before all this is resolved, the Dark Forces will hit them like a ton of bricks, forcing the Light Forces to put aside the bickering and defend the World.<br /><br />But, before this, Rand, Mat and Perrin have to sit down and tell each other what is going on, what they know.<br />It could well happen at the Seanchan Meeting. In KoD. I hope.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2004-05-19 18:29:23
subject: <b>Complications:</b>
body:
I agree completely with this theory, but i see a complication:  I don't know where i remember reading this, but it was recently so it was likely either in the Wotmania interview, or on the video interviews at tor.com/jordan/, but jordan says that Rand has one more MAJOR betrayal coming up, and as i see it, the worst case senario is that the seachan use their collar on rand, Rand sees both Matt and Perrin as being with the Seachan (matt is with Tuon for various reasons, Perrin is using them to get his wife back), and turns his back on the two of them, his oldest (and only) friends.  So while i agree, i think getting to the point where they can help eachother will be much harder than we may suspect.


created: 2004-05-20 15:32:40
subject: <b>identity</b>
body:
Good theory. I like the soul bit, as well as the part with Mat and Perrin being part of the Light Tripod. And, since the theory was commendably straightforward and to the point, I'd sum it up with: RAND NEEDS TO GROW UP. Because of his massive insecurity regarding his identity, his attitude has been surly and ill-tempered. Granted, everything he's been through -- beginning with &quot;I'm not your father!&quot; up to Logain's news in CoT -- would give even the nicest person just cause to be big-time bitchy. Rand should channel that bitchiness in the right direction, instead of snapping at his allies left and right. Hopefully we'll see our three boys get together soon!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/clap.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lan.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/clap.gif" border="0" /><br />Nynaeve and Lan!<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-05-21 02:05:27
subject: <b>Take it a step further...</b>
body:
kcf and Borderland Peasant above pointed out that the problem with this theory is that the Big Three never talk to each other, so this won't work. DUH! This is such a crucial point, it should have been included in the theory itself. The whole point of this theory is that Rand, Mat and Perrin will NEED to get together to achieve victory in the Last Battle. The theme is not that &quot;the main characters don't communicate,&quot; as kcf said above. The theme is &quot;IF the main characters don't learn to communicate, victory will be impossible!&quot; It's all part of Cadsuane's plan to teach him laughter and tears, blah, blah, blah. Rand has to learn to trust and share with his friends and allies to achieve victory. Good theory, and well supported with the quotes.


created: 2005-01-10 12:10:03
subject: <b>great theory, makes sense</b>
body:
nuff said<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> let the speedbart ride again upon the winds of time <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Made the second post on the new WoTMB2 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-04-29 08:18:38
subject: <b>...</b>
body:
perhaps the non-communciation problem will be solved with the swirls. We don't know what they are yet, but perhaps part of thier function is forcing the boys to spill their secrets ie perhaps the swirls will develop far enough that they will be inside each others heads <br /><br />??????<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Fortune rides like the sun on high <br />with the fox that makes the ravens fly. <br />Luck his soul, lightning his eye, <br />He snatches the moons from out of the sky.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-07-14 15:26:43
subject: <b>No</b>
body:
I think everything up until how you put it all together was pretty good.<br /><br />Actually, I'm making a theory on a sort of reply to this one, but heaven knows when that will get done, so I'll give a brief summary of where I think you went wrong:<br /><br />Identity isn't the only that Rand is losing. It's his humanity, too. And his humanity is just as important - if you look back to the past few books, you'll notice that Rand, even without the influence of LTT, has been growing harder and harder, so even if he did learn to deal with LTT he would still be a hard SOB. Because he thinks it's the only way that he can win, he's pushing hismelf to becoming stone. This is not good.<br /><br />Now, who's the one person who has as much humanity issues as Rand does? Perrin. So in my honset opinion, I think that Perrin will be the one to teach Rand his humanity, not his identity.<br /><br />And, as for identity... like you said, that will be Mat's job.<br /><br />That seems the most likely turn of things. After all, even if Mat doesn't have voices in his head, he has other men's memories and skills (riding a horse, battle, using the ashandarai) forcing their way into his own memories, just like Rand. And although Mat doesn't fight them off (it's ironic how Mat accepts it and Perrin fights it, isn't it?) he can still teach Rand to deal with it, and how to maintain who he is despite having someone trying force their way into you. <br /><br />You just sort of split it up in hairs, in your theory. Perrin teaching Rand about voices in his head and Mat about memories? No.<br /><br />Anyway, that's just my take on it, take it or leave it, but I just really think that Perrin would be a lot better off coaching and with his humanity (or as soon as Perrin can deal with his own, anyway) than with identity, since Perrin's doing a fine job of keeping that, and that identity would best be left to Mat.


created: 2004-05-26 15:18:09
subject: <b>Similar but tenuous at best for a connection&#8230;</b>
body:
<br />Kudos for coming up with this idea....but I'm not convinced that RJ modeled Seanchan after the Roman Empire.  There are no doubt similarities in between the two, however, one could say the same for any great &quot;empire&quot;--Mongols, Huns, Feudal Japan, China, Charlemagne&#8217;s Empire, Pax Britannia, Nazi Germany...Russia, the United States.  <br /><br />I think these similarities are inherent to becoming a world power that the steps are natural for any nation on it's quest to become the next Rome....thus RJ, in effect, modeled Seanchan after all of them.  <br /><br />Nice theory&#8230;but to say that Seanchan is the Roman Empire is similar to saying that Jordan is like Tolkien.  Similar&#8230;both great writers&#8230;but absolutely different.<br /><br />Sorry&#8230;nice work though.<br /><br />-JAGW <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">We really swing in the <font color="green">Green</font>...<br />-JAGW <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> --Just Another swingin'...errr...sword and never in the <font color="green">Lime</font>light.<br /><br />It ain't easy being <font color="green">Green</font>... <i>--Kermit the Frog</i></font><p></p>


created: 2004-05-26 17:44:41
subject: <b>I disagree</b>
body:
1) the founding of the seanchan empire is not at all similar.<br />the armies of artur hawkwing were sent not abandoned.<br />two different armies were sent, one with uther to the west till they reached seanchan, the other to the east with his daughter (till they reached shara and were never heard from again).<br /><br />2) the consolidation of rome and sseanchan may appear similar but it's the same with all great empires, there's no distinction here.<br /><br />3) i'm not sure, but I think in the seanchan empire there are free people who are not on any of the three mentioned by you, but either way, the romans accepted citizenship of non-romans, they allowed for religions and traditions to be kept in the manner of the locals (as long as it didn't threaten the empire), they even gave provinces latitude in terms of self rule (as long as in the end they bowed to the romans).<br /><br />4) the puppet rulers , i'm not sure you can deduct from tylin's case to every other place they took by force, there's no evidence to any.<br /><br />5) all empire, cities and states have symbols ...<br /><br />6) basically the similarities can be found in any great empire, and the distnictions you mentioned are not all that great.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I can't speak to the point or I might provoke the provoker.</font><p></p>


created: 2004-05-26 19:13:58
subject: <b>There are similarities</b>
body:
RJ has taken ideas, peoples, ethnicity, etc from the Real World, and then mixed and matched them to create his own world.<br /><br />However, you weakened your case by saying the Seanchan have conquered half of Westland. This is not the case. They have conquered Tanchico, Altara and Amadicia, and it isn`t clear whether they have all of the latter 2.<br /><br />I gave a thumb up for your effort, though.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2004-05-26 19:46:54
subject: <b>Agree with King maker</b>
body:
<br />A few general similairities not really anything substantial.<br /><br />On your scale of positions you left out the free people of Seanchan who were not the blood. Citizenship was not granted for achievements in the military it was given to non-citizens after 25 years of service.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">In no particular order:<br /><br />Rav<br />Belal's Girl<br />Lady Isa<br />Phil Reborn<br /><br />It was nice.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-05-26 23:46:40
subject: <b>Class</b>
body:
The Class structure in Seanchan is much the same. You have:<br />I) The Imperial Family<br />II) The Blood<br />III) The do&#8217;covale (Those who are property)<br /><br />There's also just the regular Seanchan, the farmers at Ebou Dar and the like.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">---<br /><br />There once was a rogue Aes Sedai. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br />Who decided to become a Jedi. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-green.gif" border="0" /><br />But then she met Gandalf, <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gandalf.gif" border="0" /><br />Who chopped all her hands off, <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /><br />Just before he poked her in the eye. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-05-27 01:57:50
subject: <b>Janissaries</b>
body:
Janissaries were slaves like Deathwatch Guard unlike The pretorian guard who were free men. So idea of them comes from Ottoman empire.


created: 2004-05-27 10:10:08
subject: <b>Are those all the classes?</b>
body:
Very good, well researched theory.  I think, however, that you have reduced the Seanchan class system too much to make it fit the Roman model.  It's much more complex (i.e. so'jihn, commoners, subjected peoples).


created: 2004-05-27 15:21:35
subject: <b>The Romans did loose wars!</b>
body:
I do agree with JustAnotherGreenWarder: The Seanchans are a typical empire, but their are not typical Roman! - And the Romans did loose wars: Though they made several attempts to conquer Arabia, they never managed. They also never managed to get all of Britain, though they tried hard. And they lost quite a lot of troups in Germania, too - which stayed barbarian forever.


created: 2004-05-27 16:11:41
subject: <b>Classes</b>
body:
You listed: <br />1) The Imperial Family<br />2) The Blood<br />3) The da'covale<br /><br />You neglected to mention the regular old Seanchan citizens. You know farmers, blacksmiths, merchants, those types. Also you didn't include sul'dam who don't technically fit into any of the listed three. They are above the average citizen but still must obey members of the Blood. Finally you forgot damane, who are even below da'covale. <br /><br />So really the list should look more like:<br />1) The Imperial Family<br />2) The Blood<br />3) Regular Citizens<br />4) Sul'dam <br />5) Da'covale<br />6) Damane<br /><br />Even then though, the list is flawed. Those who are owned are not always below most others. Deathwatch guard memebers are property of the Imperial family and stand above many people. And I believe Selucia (I think thats it) is property of Tuon, and so she stands above almost everyone but the Imperial Family. Really everyone but Tuon and the Empress herself.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Talyn Sedai<br />Accepted Terrian Dy'ner, Novice Calia Selle, and Novice Jocelyn Selle at www.wheeloftimerp.com<br /><br />Sa souvraya niende misain ye.</font><p></p>


created: 2004-05-27 22:49:19
subject: <b>Everyone is saying the same thing</b>
body:
I think, basically, everyone who has responded has said the same thing, there are similarities, but nothing significant enough to stand out.  Also, yes, his class system is flawed, as was pointed out quite a few times (stop beating the horse, guys, it's already dead<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" />).  I would have to agree with everyone, while there are similarities, almost anything and everything has some similarity to the Roman empire.  While some things seem the same I don't think RJ purposely modeled the Seachan after them, good thought though!<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">The &quot;Original Genuine Article&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-05-28 21:57:29
subject: <b>I'm not sure if anyone noticed this...</b>
body:
But the last line of my theory reads:<br />&quot;Thats about all I can think of right now, but I think it shows that at least some of Seanchan is Roman inspired.&quot;<br />Key word guys, SOME! No where in the theory did I say that the Seanchan were an exact model of the Roman Empire. All I was trying to say was that the two had alot in common, more so then most other Empires. And about the class system that everyone keeps killing I admit it is a little weak, but hey, I was tired when I wrote this. And for the fellow who mentioned Rome's lost &quot;wars&quot; in Germainia, Arabia, and England all I can say is that Rome never tried to expand her lands in to Germany, it was the German tribes( IE the Goths and Vandals) who invaded Roman Gaul. The same situation was as true for Arabia, the Persans and the Romans had a fragile peace that ran from Syria to the borders of Israel. Now for England. As for modern day England, it was completely conquered by the Romans. Wales and Scotland are another matter. Wales itself was actually conquered, but was very rebellious, and the Romans relly ruled most of Wales excluding certain areas. Scotland, however, was territory that the Romans had no intrest in invading, my major proof being Hadrian's Wall, which was built, in effect, to keep the Scottish out of Roman territory. Anyway, thats all I wanted to say to you guys, thanks for the input, more would be welcomed any time!<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br />DS<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">A Cruce Salus<br /><br />&quot;Then when the Sacred Months have passed, then kill the unbelievers wherever you find them, and capture them and besiege them, and prepare for them each and every ambush.&quot; - The &quot;Holy&quot; Qur'an<br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-05-29 08:27:16
subject: <b>Battle of Teutoburg</b>
body:
Actually Romans tried to conquer Germany but their army was wiped out in Teutoburg. &lt;link&gt;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Teutoburg_Forest&lt;/link&gt;


created: 2004-05-29 11:23:56
subject: <b>Saying somebody &quot;never lost a war&quot; is always very risky</b>
body:
That's like that well-known &quot;French Military History&quot; thing circulating on the internet where they twist everything so that the French lose everything - when they really just took several wars together in some cases, with France winning the first of those wars and for instance losing the last. <br />Most ancient wars (up to last or even this century, I'd say) actually consisted of a series of wars - take the Hundred Years War for instance, do you really think that was one 100 year long war? Same thing for some of the wars the Romans fought. They lost heaps of small and some big battles (Cannae, Arausio, Gergovia, Teutoburger Forest, Adrianople,...) and on several occasions only took revenge years or decades later. Especially in their early history, they lost to the Samnites, Etruscians and others on many occasions. And then I'm not even mentioning the time when the Gaul leader Bren invaded Roman territory and laid siege to Rome, eventually forcing them to surrender and pay a huge sum for their lives.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Legolas<br /><br />Favourite wotmaniac of the one and only Clover <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />- Why is it so damn cold?! <br />- Because Hades had very poor social skills and thought, &quot;Dating... abduction? Same thing, right?&quot; <br />~ Aubrey and Jason, Something Positive<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-05-29 12:17:31
subject: <b>No revenge for Tuetoberg</b>
body:
That battle ended all Roman expansion beyond the Danube and the Rhine.  Saying an Empire conquered most of Europe when they never crossed those two rivers to stay is a bit tenous.  There is also the fact that you could much more successfully compare the Seanchan Empire's instituions to the Ottoman or Persian EMpires. Plus Rome was originally a republic, with a constitution and an ingrained dislike of monarchy.  The seizure of ultimate authority by a sucession of powerful individuals led to their becoming an Empire.  Also the Seanchan consolidation took 900 years, not three hundred.  Few families ruled the Roman Empire for three generations in a row, while the Seanchan claim direct descent from a ruler who died more than a millenium ago.  The Praetorian Guard was disbanded by Constantine in the fourth century, but his successors ruled without it for nearly a thousand years.  He got rid of it because the Praetorians were responsible for making or breaking more emperors than they faithfully served.  The Seanchan much more closely resemble the Chinese Empires which were conquered and unified by foreigners but absorbed them into their culture, until the conquerors were as Chinese as their subjects.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


created: 2004-05-29 18:37:09
subject: <b>and indeed...</b>
body:
RJ has stated in some interviews that the Seanchans were indeed partially inspired on Asian culture, mainly Japanese (cf. the complicated honor codes and ranking and such)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Legolas<br /><br />Favourite wotmaniac of the one and only Clover <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />- Why is it so damn cold?! <br />- Because Hades had very poor social skills and thought, &quot;Dating... abduction? Same thing, right?&quot; <br />~ Aubrey and Jason, Something Positive<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-06-01 10:05:19
subject: <b>crap</b>
body:
i dont agree.  you could probably compare them to several other cultures and still get as many things that match up.  Some of them would be the same in every culture.  i think it is a waste of your time and mine.  also it seems that RJ did not copy any one society for any of his cultures.  he stated himself in an interview that he didnt.  he mixed and matched several concepts for each culture to make them each unique.<br /><br />the ranking in the seanchan society could be found in any culture youlook at just about.  the leaders at the top, the citizens and slaves or underclass workers at the bottom.<br />and in fact in seanchan some property is actually above the citizens and even members of the low blood.  the deathwatch guard could resemble a number of special military forces for different cultures.  maybe they are samuri which protected the japanese emporer and not praetorians.  they dont use the same weaponry as romans.  they have large curved two handed swords, romans had the gladius which was a short sword.


created: 2004-06-01 15:14:39
subject: <b>Before you regard my theory as crap...</b>
body:
Lets see what you written, punk. Thats right, nothing. You know what was a waste of time? Your parents having you.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">A Cruce Salus<br /><br />&quot;Then when the Sacred Months have passed, then kill the unbelievers wherever you find them, and capture them and besiege them, and prepare for them each and every ambush.&quot; - The &quot;Holy&quot; Qur'an<br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-06-01 15:17:55
subject: <b>Sorry about that...</b>
body:
I know it was a little harsh, but it gets me really mad when someone who has never done anything worth noticing decides to call my stuff a waste of time. I hope I only offended the person who wrote that last comment.<br />DS<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">A Cruce Salus<br /><br />&quot;Then when the Sacred Months have passed, then kill the unbelievers wherever you find them, and capture them and besiege them, and prepare for them each and every ambush.&quot; - The &quot;Holy&quot; Qur'an<br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-06-02 15:21:27
subject: <b>Regarding <i>SOME</i> of your remarks....</b>
body:
Dear DS,<br /><br />I think you are missing the point that everyone here is saying...and please take this in regards to your last line of your very original theory... That <b>no</b>, we don't think SOME of Seanchan was based on Rome.  It is more likely that it is based on an Asian Empire and much much more likely on any generic empire.  If you wish to think that these similarities mean Rome...then that is your interpretation, but almost all the remarks state otherwise.  And no, I personally disagree that <b><i>the two had [have] alot in common, more so then most other Empires.</i> </b> I don't see it.  As previously stated and as stated above, Seanchan is much more Asian oriented [pun intended]....if one had to pick a real world equivalent then the Chinese, Japanese, Mongols model would be more appropriate.  As I first posted, Seanchan seems to be more a mixture of general characteristics of a generic empire. <br /><br />This isn't meant to be harsh or mean-spirited....just that many of us disagree....regardless of what the &quot;vote&quot; result is currently displaying.  It has been shown not to be absolutely correct.  I really think it was a great idea, but just not based on any real evidence to date.<br /><br />-<i>JAGW</i> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><i>But the last line of my theory reads:<br />&quot;Thats about all I can think of right now, but I think it shows that at least some of Seanchan is Roman inspired.&quot;<br />Key word guys, SOME! No where in the theory did I say that the Seanchan were an exact model of the Roman Empire. All I was trying to say was that the two had alot in common, more so then most other Empires. And about the class system that everyone keeps killing I admit it is a little weak, but hey, I was tired when I wrote this. And for the fellow who mentioned Rome's lost &quot;wars&quot; in Germainia, Arabia, and England all I can say is that Rome never tried to expand her lands in to Germany, it was the German tribes( IE the Goths and Vandals) who invaded Roman Gaul. The same situation was as true for Arabia, the Persans and the Romans had a fragile peace that ran from Syria to the borders of Israel. Now for England. As for modern day England, it was completely conquered by the Romans. Wales and Scotland are another matter. Wales itself was actually conquered, but was very rebellious, and the Romans relly ruled most of Wales excluding certain areas. Scotland, however, was territory that the Romans had no intrest in invading, my major proof being Hadrian's Wall, which was built, in effect, to keep the Scottish out of Roman territory. Anyway, thats all I wanted to say to you guys, thanks for the input, more would be welcomed any time!<br />DS </i><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">We really swing in the <font color="green">Green</font>...<br />-JAGW <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> --Just Another swingin'...errr...sword and never in the <font color="green">Lime</font>light.<br /><br />It ain't easy being <font color="green">Green</font>... <i>--Kermit the Frog</i></font><p></p>


created: 2004-06-03 15:17:04
subject: <b>I agree with JustAnotherGreensWarder</b>
body:
I think you summed up everything perfectly JustAnotherGreensWarder.  I think there are some similarities, but nothing significant.  If anything, it would be the Japanese or some other Asian empire.  It is truly a good thought, I just don't agree.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">The &quot;Original Genuine Article&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-05-26 19:40:16
subject: <b>No I don't see it.</b>
body:
<br />They have already engaged in bloody battles. i think Valda is too proud to seek a truce with the Seanchan and I don't know how the Seanchan would be aware of Valda's knowledge of the region around Tar Valon.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">In no particular order:<br /><br />Rav<br />Belal's Girl<br />Lady Isa<br />Phil Reborn<br /><br />It was nice.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-05-26 20:43:38
subject: <b>Another problem</b>
body:
In addition to what Quoth said, the Prologue to CoT contained Valda`s POV.<br /><br />He was thinking about the Seanchan, and thought he would like to know how they controlled the Aes Sedai. Were he planning to meet with them that night, I believe his thoughts would be worded differently.<br /><br />Thanks for your efforts, though. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2004-05-27 01:41:15
subject: <b>Impossible</b>
body:
CoL are religious fanatics or they know THE TRUTH which includes that Seanchans are darkfriends. So any alliance between them and Seanchans is impossible.<br /><br /> Sigismund (1566-1632) became king of protestant Sweden and catholic Poland because his father was king of Sweden and his maternal grandfather was king of Poland but he couldn't keep both of them bc his uncle was fanatical protestant and he started rebellion in Sweden and so Sigismund lost his Swedish crown. Naturally if Sigismund had became protestant instead of catholic he had lost Poland.<br /><br />I think that Valda's situation is similar or if he tried to make alliance with Seanchans his men would rebel and almost certainly execute him as darkfriend.


created: 2004-05-27 15:19:18
subject: <b>No</b>
body:
I don't think they are allied, remember that Seanchan despices  the whitecloakc, since they are a free army. Don't think the  Seanchan would make busnies with them. The new powerfull allied are Tallanvor or Radn, if any excist.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">One more kiss tonight from some tall stable girl<br />She&#8217;s like grace from the earth<br />When you&#8217;re all tuckered out and tame<br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-05-27 22:56:07
subject: <b>Agree with above</b>
body:
The whitecloaks going after an alliance is doubtful for the above mentioned reasons.  As far as the Seachan wanting to learn the terrain, the raken have seemed to do a fine job as it as, the Seachan don't seem to need much help with warfare, despite a rather unique opponent in the White Tower.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">The &quot;Original Genuine Article&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-05-27 23:26:26
subject: <b>They are meeting Ghealden nobles</b>
body:
Come to Ghealden. Put me on the throne. We have no army, no queen and the Prophet was left. A good chance to regroup.<br /><br />Perrin and Failure will then return to Jehannah with Aliandre and we shall have Perrin v the Whitecloaks again.<br /><br />The Ghealden realise how powerful Perrin is - with his Ashaman, Aes Sedai and Dragon Reborn connections and hey presto King Perrin of Ghealden and the Two Rivers.<br /><br />And the added bonus would be Elayne being p'd off at the Two Rivers loss  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />


created: 2004-05-26 15:27:00
subject: <b>Nice Theory</b>
body:
Good and well researched...<br />Thumbs up from me... <br /><br />-JAGW <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">We really swing in the <font color="green">Green</font>...<br />-JAGW <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> --Just Another swingin'...errr...sword and never in the <font color="green">Lime</font>light.<br /><br />It ain't easy being <font color="green">Green</font>... <i>--Kermit the Frog</i></font><p></p>


created: 2004-05-26 18:02:25
subject: <b>Excellent theory - well written and argued.</b>
body:
I agree with what you say.<br /><br />in fact, I would go further and say that RJ's solid grounding in modern physics comes out in his concepts of the Finns' world.<br /><br />The two worlds are different and only touch each other at 3 points that we know of the 2 redstone doorways, and the Tower of Ghenjei. 3 discrete points - tangents, if you know geometry, or maybe singularities from the point of view of physics or probability. Only 2 exist now, since the point that Moiraine entered the Finns' universe through is now destroyed . So it would be impossible to predict what is happening to her there, let alone what would happen to her IF she could get back. Or even if she can get back. <br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> Linda Sedai <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Proud member of the Embroiderer's Guild of the White Tower<br /><br /><b><font color="red">FAQ admin</font></b> </font>'cos the FAQ is where it's at.<br /><br /><b>Currently working on:</b> my 70th FAQ<p><a href="http://13depository.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">The thirteenth depository : A Wheel of Time blog</a></p><p></p>


created: 2004-05-26 18:49:42
subject: <b>Excellent Theory.</b>
body:
I agree with every point you made.<br /><br />Your last paragraph threw me for a moment. But yes, Min`s Viewings are never wrong and the Aelfinn always give true answers.<br /><br />You (and linda_sedai`s reply above) also touch on the reason why I believe Moiraine did not die, and why Lan could no longer feel her presence.  She is in another plane, but there is a way out. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2004-05-27 00:16:38
subject: <b>well researched, and I generally agree...</b>
body:
but, I have always interpreted Amys' comments to be about Rand's inability to kill Lanfear (a woman) and his upset at Moiraine's death in part because she was a woman. So I don't think that Amys' comments help your argument, but otherwise, nicely laid out!


created: 2004-05-27 05:44:13
subject: <b>We might add ...</b>
body:
that one of her possible source of information might be her own testing for Accepted some decades ago since many have drawn a parallel between the ter'angreal in Rhuidean and the one in the WT.<br /><br />ok with you on the whole, great work (and those quotes are an interesting find)<br />


created: 2004-05-27 09:25:58
subject: <b>oooh!</b>
body:
*clap clap clap*<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/clap.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lan.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/clap.gif" border="0" /><br />Nynaeve and Lan!<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-05-27 13:56:20
subject: <b>Very nice.</b>
body:
I had always assumed the one small thing was that Lan would not die avenging her. And the small bubble of hope was pertaining to her wresting the angreal from Lanfear. Usually one does not consider staying alive as a small thing. But I have been wrong before, good theory.


created: 2004-05-27 15:59:13
subject: <b>Very nice</b>
body:
Aww, excellent in fact. Very well researched and put together. I also agree with comments made by others. (I personally always felt that Moiraine knew something from her Accepted testing because of the whole Tel'aran'rhiod thing too.)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Talyn Sedai<br />Accepted Terrian Dy'ner, Novice Calia Selle, and Novice Jocelyn Selle at www.wheeloftimerp.com<br /><br />Sa souvraya niende misain ye.</font><p></p>


created: 2004-05-27 16:18:42
subject: <b>I disagree</b>
body:
But still gave it the thumbs up. I may not agree with it, but it was well written, researched and thought out. But I have to agree with a post above me, the &quot;Spoonfull of hope&quot; was because things were happening as she had seen them in the rings, meaning Lanfear would not kill, or enslave Rand, and the &quot;one thing&quot; was most likely Lan's bond passing, and her arrangements to get him to Nyn, because she knew that, and that is one thing, so knowing anything else would make it a lie.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sir, I admit your general rule<br />That every poet is a fool.<br />But you yourself may serve to show it,<br />That every fool is not a poet.<br /> <br />Shendolin Valderen on the RPG <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-05-27 18:32:02
subject: <b>One small thing</b>
body:
&quot;Moiraine tells Rand in her letter that she does not know what happens in the world after she is gone (except for that one small thing).&quot; ... I believe the one small thing is knowledge Min gave her about marrying Thom at some point.<br /><br />We know that the ability to tell when two people would marry is one of Min's talents. Moraine would consider that information &quot;a small thing&quot; in the great scheme of things. But she does know &quot;the face of the man I will marry better than either of you (Elayne or Egwene).&quot; [FoH, Ch. 5] Also in FoH, she tells Thom &quot;Tanchico will not (kill you), however. I guarantee that, and by the First Oath you know it for truth.&quot;<br /><br />That knowledge from Min is Moiraine's &quot;spoonful of hope&quot;, because for that to happen, Moiraine would have to survive the docks somehow. Her hope is that Min has never yet been wrong.


created: 2004-05-27 23:10:43
subject: <b>I agree</b>
body:
Nice job, very well written.<br /><br />One thing I have never understood though...If going into Finnland broke the bond with Lan because it is another dimension, why didn't the bond break in Tear when she went through the other door?  Any thoughts would be appreciated.<br /><br />Good theory<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">The &quot;Original Genuine Article&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-05-27 23:34:05
subject: <b>why the bond didn't snap</b>
body:
the bond obviously snapped, because the doorways that linked the two dimensions was destroyed, thus shutting off any outside influence in each dimension that was the result of the other dimension. in short, since the door was destroyed, the bond was snapped because it was repelled and could no longer enter into the Finn dimension due to the fact of the linking doorway no longer existing. in tear the doorway remained in tact<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> &quot;I'm the D.O.&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /> &quot;No I am&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rand.gif" border="0" /> &quot;KILL THEM!&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /> &quot;You can't possibly win!&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" />*smirks* &quot;Ya wanna make a bet???&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perrin.gif" border="0" /> *mutters* &quot;stupid axe&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/avi.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/min.gif" border="0" /> &quot;YOU CAN DO IT!&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2004-05-28 00:01:54
subject: <b>Ohh</b>
body:
Thanks for clearing that up haruka <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">The &quot;Original Genuine Article&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-05-28 11:06:46
subject: <b>The &quot;one small thing&quot;</b>
body:
The theory is correct. Moiraine, in her letter to Rand, related that she had no idea about the future, except for &quot;one small thing which did not concern him&quot;. This is in direct reference to her POV of the &quot;spoonful of hope&quot;, which could only mean a viewing by Min, probably about marrying Thom.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2004-05-28 22:27:17
subject: <b>MJJ's Responses</b>
body:
First off thanks very much to all who have responded so far to this little missive of mine, whether by vote or noteboard response.  It&#8217;s my first effort, and I hope at least it was an enjoyable read.  I know I had fun written&#8217; it up <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />   Your comments so far have been thought provoking.  Here&#8217;s a few hopefully thought provoking responses in return: <br /><br />To Linda Sedai:  I like your extension of this part of the theory; the two redstone doorways and the Tower of Ghenjei as three discrete points, tangents, or singularities.  And yes, one of those points is now destroyed; something I think Moiraine saw as an outcome of the third cairhienin dock path she chose.  Another part of her &#8220;cup of despair&#8221;; there was no way back to that point, for her or for Lanfear.  This I think is why she left that angreal lying there for Lanfear.   With Moiraine channeling, most likely at full strength, and Lanfear channeling an immense amount in comparison, especially through that angreal (that nasty little angreal that Lanfear probably would have been drawn to anyway, especially considering her mood right then), and both falling through the doorway at the same time, it&#8217;s not surprising at all that the connection between the two worlds was blown, short circuited to the point that it was burned and melted beyond recognition.  Rand observed that &#8220;lightnings arched silver and blue around the ter&#8217;angreal, more and more violently; rasping buzzes crackled through the air.&#8221;   Clawing that nasty little bracelet away from Lanfear just a brief moment before they both fell through the doorway ensured for Moiraine that Lanfear would be burnt out if she survived to the other side as well, as Lanfear would have continued for those brief moments to draw more Power than she was capable of without the aid of that angreal.<br /><br />To Borderland Peasant (and in agreement with haruka):  The destruction of the doorway also explains the severing of the Bond between Moiraine and Lan.  When Moiraine went through the Aelfinn doorway in Tear, there is no indication that her Bond with Lan was affected.  It would be interesting to know, though, whether Lan lost his feeling for Moiraine while she was beyond the Tear Doorway; something akin perhaps to a complete masking of the Bond rather than an actual break of it.  The destruction of the Eelfinn doorway in Cairhien, however, definitely severed the Bond between them, and only Moraine&#8217;s earlier tampering with it allowed some semblance of the Bond to be passed to Myrelle.<br /><br />To Stampey:  Yes, I agree that Amys&#8217;s comments are - in part - about Rand&#8217;s inability to kill a woman.  Rand takes Amys&#8217; comments to heart, takes them as his own in believing himself a fool for his inability to kill a woman &#8211; even a woman like Lanfear - which directly results in the &#8220;death&#8221; of another woman.  But I think Amys&#8217; words have a multi-layered meaning.  &#8220;&#8217;You are a fool, Rand al&#8217;Thor,&#8217; Amys said, standing.  That surprisingly youthful face beneath her headscarf and white hair was stone hard.  &#8216;About this and many other things, you are a fool.&#8217;.&#8221;  Rand is a fool for his inability to kill a woman, a fool for allowing that inability to cause another woman to do the killing for him; a fool for believing that he must resist the help of any woman in order to protect her; a fool for believing that to protect the world he must protect every individual in it, man, woman, or child; a fool for believing that in protecting those men, women, and children he can still somehow use them to that end; a fool for believing that he ultimately must do what must be done solely on his own; and the penultimate fool for believing that it all rests on his shoulders alone.  <br /><br />In other words, Rand&#8217;s pissing and moaning and crying &#8216;woe is me&#8217; because, despite all his best efforts, a woman &#8220;died&#8221; for him, is really only a manifestation of his stubborn resistance to admit that &#8220;he is not alone in this&#8221;.  It was &#8220;<i>my choice</i>&#8221; he says.  Not Moiraine&#8217;s.  Amys sees him for a fool because she knows it was <i>not</i> his choice.  Moiraine made her choice not for him ultimately, but for the hope of the world.  And Rand should see that hope in what she did.  But because he&#8217;s so full of self pity he&#8217;s not thinking about what going through that doorway might really mean. And he - even more than Amys - should know what going through that doorway might mean.  A sacrifice; most assuredly yes.  The end of all hope; most assuredly no.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Everybody's Auntie MJJ-like it or not <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br />Dylanfanatic: My Left-Handed Duckling of Darkness <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />&quot;I know something from books&quot;<br />&quot;Books? But how can you know it from books?&quot;<br />&quot;Oh you're right; I know nothing nothing nothing!&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2004-05-28 22:41:15
subject: <b>More responses from MJJ</b>
body:
To Where is Tylins Head (I love that name by the way <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> ), Rand_Al-Thor, Jes, and others:  While it&#8217;s always very interesting to read what thoughts, ideas, and theories others have in regards to that &#8220;one small thing&#8221;, I actually only mentioned it in the theory (and parenthetically at that) because Moiraine mentions it in her letter to Rand as the one exception to her not knowing what goes on in the world after she&#8217;s gone.  It&#8217;s not addressed in the theory otherwise because I believe it&#8217;s a separate matter from whether Moiraine survived beyond the doorway or not (and could constitute a whole separate theory to boot!).  Personally I think (and agree with others here) that the &#8220;one small thing&#8221; was the passing of Lan&#8217;s bond, because it&#8217;s the only thing that we as readers know Moiraine could absolutely be certain would happen (she arranged it with her own One Power hands recall!), and we can also certainly see Moiraine believing it to be something that did not concern Rand and therefore believing it to be just a &#8220;small thing&#8221; to him (in other words, none of his business!). <br /><br />To Jes and Jofraz:  Considering what I said above, I disagree that the &#8220;one small thing&#8221; involves Moiraine marrying Thom.  I do agree that it is probably part of her &#8220;spoonful of hope&#8221;, since it&#8217;s most likely one of the things she &#8220;knew already&#8221;, and therefore one of the things that leave her to doubt about what will happen or not happen beyond and after the doorway.<br /><br />To Where is Tylins Head and Rand_Al-Thor:  I believe you have it backwards <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> ).  Moiraine&#8217;s spoonful, or small bubble, of hope is not because events at the docks were actually happening as she was shown in the Rings, and as she had dreamed many times over since then, or even that she might somehow sidestep fate at the last minute and still accomplish what she needed to (how many times have we heard her tell others that one cannot sidestep one&#8217;s fate as the Wheel weaves!).  She was shown exactly how it would all happen; there&#8217;s no need for her to hope for it.  And although she says to Rand in her letter, &#8220;That you are reading this means that events have fallen out at the docks as I hoped&#8230;&#8221;,  what she&#8217;s telling him is that events have fallen out at the docks as she hoped because she consciously and deliberately chose that third path from the docks, making it impossible for events to fall out any other way because of that choice.<br /><br />Recall that before she launched herself at Lanfear, Moiraine was thinking about Lanfear &#8220;turning a bracelet in her hands&#8221;; the angreal Moiraine left for her.  Moiraine thinks that unless Rand had one of his own, Lanfear would &#8220;crush him with that&#8221;; either that or she was just &#8220;toying with him&#8221;.  Moiraine&#8217;s next thought is that &#8220;<i>it did not matter</i>&#8221;.  The only way it could <i>not</i> matter is if Moiraine had no doubt about what the outcome of her actions would be.  She didn&#8217;t need to hope for it.  This is her cup of despair; that she had to choose that particular path in order to eliminate Lanfear, which also included eliminating herself, or at the very least her leaving the world not knowing if she would survive or ever return to it.  Yes, staying alive is not a &#8220;small thing&#8221;; but Moiraine only had a small hope that she would, not knowing what would happen after.  Her spoonful, or small bubble, of hope is that she would survive beyond the doorway, because of what she had previously been told and shown about her future life.<br /><br />To Ashaman Drake and Talyn Sedai:  I agree that Moiraine&#8217;s Accepted test may have been a source of &#8220;what she already knew&#8221;, and I did consider it for this theory.  Since elements of Nynaeve&#8217;s and Egwene&#8217;s Accepted tests seem to be proving themselves as possible realities in their lives, there&#8217;s no reason not to assume that the same might be true for Moiraine.  However, thus far in the books, there has been no definite proof that what a Novice experiences in her Accepted test will come true as it&#8217;s shown, and I therefore did not include it in the theory.  We do, however, have absolute proof that Min&#8217;s viewings are true, and that the Aelfinn&#8217;s provide true answers, and that the Rhuidean rings show true (albeit variant) paths to one&#8217;s future.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Everybody's Auntie MJJ-like it or not <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br />Dylanfanatic: My Left-Handed Duckling of Darkness <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />&quot;I know something from books&quot;<br />&quot;Books? But how can you know it from books?&quot;<br />&quot;Oh you're right; I know nothing nothing nothing!&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2004-05-30 04:43:37
subject: <b>I don't know.</b>
body:
I still say the small bubble of hope was pertaining to getting the an&#8217;greal away from Lanfear. Since after the door she had no more memories. I think she was trying to burn out Lanfear and the smoldering doorway took them both by surprise.


created: 2004-05-30 23:15:11
subject: <b>Well, a bit more input from Talyn</b>
body:
My feeling is that the Accepted test is somehow connected with Tel'aran'rhiod and Dreaming. Therefore some of what is shown is a possible future, some is a definate future, and some is just the imagination of the novice being tested. It's almost like the Portal Stones and alternate realities. The test shows could have beens and could still happens. I base this solely on the 'resonance' from Egwenes test, so this is a lot of opinion. <br /><br />As to the three points, I was thinking about it from a more basic geometry perspective when I read that. It takes three points to define a plane. If two planes can be defined by the same three points they are basically the same plane. So Finnworld and the 'real' world existed on the same plane. Now for my little theory on why the bond snapped. When one of those three points was destroyed, Finnworld and the 'real' world ceased to exist on the same plane. They now floated somewhat free of eachother and because of this lack of being on the same plane (I'm talking planes of existance by the way) the bond between Moiraine and Lan snapped. For the same reason the bond did not snap when Moriaine went through the doorway in Tear, they planes were still the same then. <br /><br />Hope this made sense.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Talyn Sedai<br />Accepted Terrian Dy'ner, Novice Calia Selle, and Novice Jocelyn Selle at www.wheeloftimerp.com<br /><br />Sa souvraya niende misain ye.</font><p></p>


created: 2004-05-31 12:23:38
subject: <b>One small thing</b>
body:
that does not concern Rand.<br /><br />I can agree with your interpretation, that it was the passing of the Bond, since it goes along with not knowing what happens in the future. Good clarification.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2004-06-01 20:57:17
subject: <b>Agree with some points</b>
body:
I like the theory.  I would tend to agree with it also.  But just to add a couple of notes of my own to the responses.<br />Amys called Rand a fool because she knew the Maidens of the Spear were going to break their spears because Rand was taking their honor.<br />I also believe that Moraine passed Lans Bond prior to jumping on Lanfear.  That&#8217;s why he didn&#8217;t feel anything (i.e. pain, burning)<br />I agree that the spoonful of hope would be that things were turning out the way she saw them, meaning she would destroy Lanfear and Rand was still on his path to TG. Not to mention that Nynaeve would get Lan in the future.<br />


created: 2004-06-02 11:13:42
subject: <b>Re: Input from Talyn and Sampson</b>
body:
Talyn, I like your ideas on the Accepted test, all of it centered around the Accepted confronting and getting beyond her greatest fears, past, present and future.  But yeah; speculation for the most part.<br /><br />I also like your extension of Linda Sedai's idea also.  Nice thoughts there.<br /><br />Sampson, Amys said that Rand was 'a fool, in this and many other things'.  His treatment of the Maidens is one of the 'many other things'.<br /><br />As for the passing of Lan's Bond, Moiraine didn't need to pass it ahead of time.  She altered it so that it would pass automatically to Myrelle without any further action on her part.  That's why she altered it in the first place.  When she 'put him out of her mind' I think she was just doing exactly that, not thinking about him anymore, or perhaps at the most masking the Bond so he would not be a further distraction.  As for Lan not really feeling anything, well, he did feel the loss of her intensely.  I think it was mitigated somewhat because the Bond was passed to another AS rather than simply broken, which would have left him with nothing.<br /><br />I still think Moiraine's spoonful of hope goes beyond events turning out at the docks the way she hoped.  She chose that path and set things up exactly as she had been shown so those events would in fact occur.  There was something more there to her little dab of hope.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Everybody's Auntie MJJ-like it or not <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br />Dylanfanatic: My Left-Handed Duckling of Darkness <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />&quot;I know something from books&quot;<br />&quot;Books? But how can you know it from books?&quot;<br />&quot;Oh you're right; I know nothing nothing nothing!&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2004-06-22 16:23:01
subject: <b>Moiraine will return</b>
body:
I agree and it is very well researched.<br />I think thom will be the one to bring Moiraine out of the TG. And that she does have to be there for Rand to win the last battle. Moiraine realized this after her trip to Rhuidien. Doesn't she say somewhere in tFoH that she has to leave Rand and CO for awhile and that she won't always be there? Well to me this implies that she is going to return.<br />Thumbs up!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Egwene Fan  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/egwene.gif" border="0" /><br />Elaida will fall!!! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /> <br />Egwene is meant to rule the White Tower and even Rand will know her fury!! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-11-22 18:47:28
subject: <b>the bracelet</b>
body:
I was wondering why Moraine had left the bracelet there and the above was a good explanation.  I think the explanation of Amys remark (you are a fool...) was very helpful also.  And also the description of Rand's thinking he has to do all on his own, etc., was very good.  He is young.  He has little experience to go on other than his TR background.  He is learning, but without a mentor with some life experience, this is turning him hard rather than strong.  Moraine had made a good start.  Now we will see what Cadsuane can accomplish.  I like the character of Cadsuane.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">:0 Alea Sedai :0</font><p></p>


created: 2005-03-26 19:56:13
subject: <b>Hate making stupid headlines to my stupid, short comments...</b>
body:
I really enjoied this <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" />. Thumbs up! I have thought a great deal about this subject (Haven't we all? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />), and I really wonder what happened after Moiraine and Lanfears' arrival in Finnland... Say Mo managed to get the Angreal from Lanfear and Lanfear was burned out. Wouldn't Mo have put up a fight when (or if) the Finns tried to capture her? With an Angreal, that would have been quite a sight... Mo kicking Finnass <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" />. <br /> <br />I suppose they were both captured at last, but if Lanfear was executed (She was revived after all...) maybe Moiraine was executed too? We'll just have to hope the Finns treat darkfriends differently than those who walk in the light. But if that is so, why didn't the Finns just send Moiraine on her way back to the &quot;real&quot; world? There have been theories on this subject too, about Moiraine being Tuons' damane and such crazy things, but I dont find this very likely (see the FAQ on Moiraines' survival). Maybe they just threw her in a dungeon after all, but that seems way too obvious for RJ... It would have been just perfect for our brave resquers, though <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" />. I'd really like to see them (Thom, Mat, Olver and such) storming into the Finnworld and getting her out. <br /> <br />The possibilities are many, but I would still love to see some thoughts on what happened in Finnland after Moiraine and Lanfears disappearance... Go ahead and post! (If you have some thoughts on the subject, please do <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />)<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perplexed.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smackhead.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /> LLT <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-06-01 11:32:13
subject: <b>excellent catch.</b>
body:
Quick, submit a question to RJ about it at dragonmount.com (I think the deadline is June <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" />.<br /><br />It could hold the mysteries of bathing Aiel or it may launder silk. Possibly it hold an intuitively obvious clue to some great unsolved mystery. Maybe it is to be used in conjunction with the OP 'sex toy' Elaine finds in the same stash.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Need a book to read - check out my blog for ideas.</font><p><a href="http://nethspace.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">Neth Space</a></p><p></p>


created: 2004-06-01 19:52:27
subject: <b>Sounds like RJ`s little joke</b>
body:
Probably says RAFO, but maybe it will be used by a Brown (Verin), if not by an Asha`man. Strange, we haven`t seen an Asha`man with a sense of humor.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2004-06-02 07:55:46
subject: <b>What if...</b>
body:
What if the ter'angreal in question is one that creates trees such as Avendesora? <br /><br />The smiling man figure with a book, aside from the beard, has a slight resemblance with our Buddha figures. The Trees were a place where people could sit down and find true peace of mind. Remember that guy that sat under a Tree for forty years and found true wisdom.<br />


created: 2004-06-02 09:50:24
subject: <b>*ping!*</b>
body:
Wow, a cameo! Carefully buried beneath pages and pages of dense text, cleverly concealed behind Elayne's pretty chin-raising antics... who knew this treasure waited for the reader with such attention to detail?<br /><br />Props to this theory! It's hysterical!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/clap.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lan.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/clap.gif" border="0" /><br />Nynaeve and Lan!<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-06-02 16:21:35
subject: <b>Good Catch</b>
body:
I read this and thought it odd, now I know why. Thanks<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /> Connor The Great <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sleepy.gif" border="0" /> You would here about me more but I am lazy. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sleepy.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angry.gif" border="0" /> Damn Mrs. Grey's World History 2 AP Class!!! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angry.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-06-03 14:45:00
subject: <b>RJ Action Figure</b>
body:
I bet it's a Robert Jordan action figure from the Age of Legends.  You can equip it with either a book, cane, pipe, M-16, or a big sack full of publishing cash.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>MatsEyeView</i><br />&quot;I'm your huckleberry.&quot; -Val Kilmer, &quot;Tombstone&quot;<br /><br />&quot;And he who forgets, is destined to remember&quot; -Pearl Jam's <i>Nothingman</i></font><p></p>


created: 2004-06-03 15:23:57
subject: <b>Of course...</b>
body:
It allows you to challenge the Creator on a much greater scale than the Choedan Kal would allow...  Mwaha.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice.<br />In practice, there is.<br /><br />Note to self: No Slashdot humor on wotmania... it apparently is -not- appreciated.</font><p></p>


created: 2004-06-04 14:24:51
subject: <b>the ultimate questions</b>
body:
Channeling Spirit through this thingy enables the channeler to know who killed Asmodean, whether Moiraine is dead or alive, what's odd about Aviendha's babies...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Live as if you were living for the second time and had acted as wrongly the first time as you are about to act now.  -VF</font><p></p>


created: 2004-06-06 02:50:55
subject: <b>noo...</b>
body:
actually, it auto answers questions!<br /><br />you shake him, and he says things like &quot;rafo&quot; and &quot;RAFO&quot;<br />&quot;why dont you RAFO&quot;<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Seeking Aes Sedai for Bondage... uhh bonding. <br /><br />We rode on the winds of the rising storm,<br />We ran to the sounds of the thunder,<br />We danced among the lightning bolts,<br />and tore the world asunder.</font><p></p>


created: 2004-06-07 08:38:53
subject: <b>interview</b>
body:
I found this small theory so nice that I posted it on the dragounmount site for the incoming interview with RJ. I didn't know if it had already been done, but i did it;I of course gave you and wotmania.com the full credit. Hope it'll get picked <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />


created: 2004-06-23 17:45:54
subject: <b>Little Man with a book</b>
body:
This is probably RJ like you said and the Terangrel will alow the channeler to see into the future and also find out whats going on in other parts of the WoT world at that moment. Because only RJ knows..<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Egwene Fan  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/egwene.gif" border="0" /><br />Elaida will fall!!! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /> <br />Egwene is meant to rule the White Tower and even Rand will know her fury!! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-12-04 01:09:20
subject: <b>re-creation</b>
body:
Remember the crystal in X-men's Phoenix Saga? The RJ ter'angreal does the same, if one channels fire and spirit into it it will eat the entire Rand universe and create another one out of the rubbish.


created: 2005-02-03 12:05:45
subject: <b>RJ is the creator</b>
body:
since RJ created the 'world' then some people in the AoL or earlier could have worshiped him and so made statures of him and one of them was made in to a ter'angrel<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-02-21 21:29:33
subject: <b>its true!</b>
body:
In the questions section of the official WoT site, RJ says &quot;I'm not [some random author, can't  remember the guy's name], but I do like to show up once in awhile.&quot;  This was his answer to the question proposed in this theory.


created: 2005-04-02 10:51:04
subject: <b>Aha!</b>
body:
I got it! It creates convenient plot twists!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Masria Sedai of the Brown Ajah<br />The Zaftig Cat Girl<br /><br />http://serpentinepoet.proboards107.com/index.cgi</font><p></p>


created: 2005-09-10 18:45:14
subject: <b>Exitialis, ur retarded</b>
body:
he said &quot;Im' not Alfred Hitchcock,&quot; WHO ISN'TAN AUTHOR, HE WAS A DIRECTOR.  he is credited with the creation of modern horror, and he appeared in ALL of of his movies.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>It's not apples and oranges, but no one paying attention could compare these apples without noticing: <br />(a) one is 12 times bigger and <br />(b) both of them are rutabagas.</i></font><p></p>


created: 2006-02-09 20:26:35
subject: <b>maybe...</b>
body:
maybe it instantly puts ones mind on steroids?<br />Mind-roids...cool<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">One word.<br /><br />Perrin. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perrin.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2007-07-09 00:35:39
subject: <b>Sleep Ter'angreal</b>
body:
It is a sleep ter'angreal. You can set it to start writing unimaginably dense, long, and extremly boring stories (which by the way, never end) that are never out &quot;on time&quot;.<br />When the target reads these stories, they are instantly bored into a sleep so deep that it is impossible to return from without the help of an extremely funny Humor Post.<br />Only problem is there seems to be a few people immune to it(you might know them since its probably any geek on this site)(including me)<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Most Magnificent Master of Metaphors<br />&quot;Take life by the horns. Then when its thrashing around--castrate it!&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2008-08-07 20:48:53
subject: <b>Re hitchcock</b>
body:
Exitialis, ur retarded<br />Submitted by napoleonCoplin     on 9/10/2005 6:45:14 PM<br />he said &quot;Im' not Alfred Hitchcock,&quot; WHO ISN'TAN AUTHOR, HE WAS A DIRECTOR. he is credited with the creation of modern horror, and he appeared in ALL of of his movies.<br /><br />he wasn't in all his movies but in most of them<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I may be crazy but im still more---- OHH SHINY PENNY!<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Fear the ninja smiley<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ninja.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />ohhh pretty fire..Most not touch....OUCH IT BURNS!<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-06-03 14:02:59
subject: <b>The wrong thing in this</b>
body:
There are no spots in the Aes Sedai symbol. It all falls there. It is removed.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">One more kiss tonight from some tall stable girl<br />She&#8217;s like grace from the earth<br />When you&#8217;re all tuckered out and tame<br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-06-03 14:52:14
subject: <b>symbols different</b>
body:
I agree with the above poster.  The AS symbol is as RJ wanted it to be.  No spots.<br /><br />As for the Yin-Yang symbol I have seen different versions, but the majority of them show it opposite as RJ has it.  The whit part is facing down (like the black dragons claw) and the black is up-right (like the flame of TV).<br /><br />Here is an intersting link for about the origins of the Yin-Yang symbol:<br />http://www.chinesefortunecalendar.com/yinyang.htm<br /><br />-<i>JAGW</i> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">We really swing in the <font color="green">Green</font>...<br />-JAGW <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> --Just Another swingin'...errr...sword and never in the <font color="green">Lime</font>light.<br /><br />It ain't easy being <font color="green">Green</font>... <i>--Kermit the Frog</i></font><p></p>


created: 2004-06-03 14:58:11
subject: <b>hmm</b>
body:
If you need the other half to channel, then how come that though it is less effective, a women can still unstill a women?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">The &quot;Original Genuine Article&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-06-03 17:14:24
subject:
<b>Hey I wrote that theory <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /></b>

body:
So obviously I agree with your premise.  I'm even close to agreeing with your theory, mostly because I think the whole reason for the dot in the real symbol is to reinforce the concept of one side working with and against the other side.  In other words in the real symbol the dot is redundant and I could believe that RJ took it out for that reason.  And in support of you I would point out that it is the lack of perception on the AOL Aes Sedai that might have led to the missing dot.  If they couldn't percieve the saidin/saidar conduit they would have no reason to know it was there or to include it in their symbol.<br />By the way if you want to read the Theory foolmentaljoker is talking about its called Healing Severing by Sex and Related Topics.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where did these Skimmers come from?  I mean if they didn't want to read the book they could have just Traveled to another author.  Why risk arriving at the wrong destination?  Why risk falling into darkness?</font><p></p>


created: 2004-06-03 22:59:57
subject: <b>great idea</b>
body:
the more common yin tang, with the dot, could be used to represent that. the dot represents the conduit of the opposite power allowing you to acces the main power of that half. thus no yin without yang, no dark without light, no saidar without saidin<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">No one's taller than the LAST MAN STANDING!<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-06-04 06:42:49
subject: <b>Thanks Onarishma</b>
body:
I went to read your theory, and I agree with it entirely - although you might want to clarify that title a bit. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />To the first two posters, I would say that I wasn't trying to imply RJ made a mistake - rather that he *deliberately* left something out in order to give us a hint about something important. We have already seen that AoL Aes Sedai didn't know as much as they thought, and were in fact ignorant of some fairly important things - bonding, how to Heal stilling/gentling, unpicking a weave and so on. So why *should* we expect them to realise the One Power isn't as black-and-white (so to speak) as they believe?<br /><br />I think the true extent of the interdependence of saidin and saidar will only really be discovered by the present Age's channelers, and that in the bright new future we all expect to dawn after the Last Battle, Aes Sedai will co-operate under the ancient symbol once more - but slightly modified to look like the Yin-Yang in order to represent the new discovery and reinforce the often-stated idea that the greatest works are achieved by men and women working *together*.<br /><br />To answer Borderland Peasant's question fully, I'd refer everyone to Onarishma's theory as it goes into a lot of scientific detail (and if I remember right, RJ has said he based the way the Power works on scientific principles).<br /><br />A shorter answer, though, can be had by re-reading the chapter With the Choedan Kalm, in which Rand cleanses Saidin. Because Saidin and Saidar cannot mix, forming the conduit of Saidar means *all* of the Saidin drawn is forced through it. Had it been made of even untainted Saidin, there would almost inevitably have been some 'leakage' (or osmosis, resistance, friction... science class was a looooong time ago), resulting in less Saidin reaching the other end of the conduit.<br /><br />So basically, if a woman Heals a stilled woman it *will* work, since all that is needed is a conduit of some sort. But a lot of Saidar will be 'lost' in the drawing process.<br /><br />Oh, and JAGW's link to the yin-yang explanation is also well worth a read. Interesting stuff. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />


created: 2004-06-04 06:46:40
subject: <b>I meant Kal...</b>
body:
... unless of course Rand *did* pop some gentle over-the-counter stress-busters before picking up the access keys. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" />


created: 2004-06-04 08:02:51
subject: <b>Good Idea</b>
body:
I think that it makes sense based on what we know. And for you who have said that the AS symbol has no dots, I have this to say to you. If this theory works the ancient AS didn't know about the whole &quot;conduit&quot; thing proposed in the theory, so when creating their symbol they wouldn't have put in the dots! There ya go, problem solved.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Talyn Sedai<br />Accepted Terrian Dy'ner, Novice Calia Selle, and Novice Jocelyn Selle at www.wheeloftimerp.com<br /><br />Sa souvraya niende misain ye.</font><p></p>


created: 2004-06-04 10:14:49
subject: <b>Saidin and Saidar</b>
body:
If I am not mistaken SAIDIN is referred to as she (or at least in a femalish way: it sings, you have to conquer it e.t.c.) and SAIDAR as a he(you have to submit to it). In further parallelism to the ying-yang symbol it can be noted that YANG(white half) is - male, light, active and good, while YING is - female, dark, passive and evil. So it corresponds with Jordan's idea of channeling (i.e. a woman has to submit to active SAIDAR&lt;YANG&gt; while a man has to conquer the passive SAIDIN&lt;YING&gt;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />. That means that females channel the male half of the One power while males channel the female half <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/seanchan.gif" border="0" /> Hagakure: prosto tak nichego ne byivaet <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/seanchan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Disclaimer: <br /><br />Any ideas written in this post are the author's personal opinion. Any offence taken is completely coincidential and unintentional.</font><p></p>


created: 2004-06-04 16:27:18
subject: <b>errata</b>
body:
Actually, the symbol without the spots is a more ancient version (in the real world) than the version with the spots.  One of my lit profs at Univ. of Michigan gave a lecture on the topic, how it went from no spots and just two parts to two parts with spots, then later it developed into a four-part symbol (later developing into the ancient swastika) and finally settling into a three part symbol much later.  I don't remember all the details of the lecture, but in short it's not like RJ forgot about the dots, he just used an older version.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Luck is a horse to ride like any other<br /><br />StaffWielder@wotmania.com</font><p></p>


created: 2004-06-07 12:33:07
subject: <b>hummm...</b>
body:
Then why wouldn't men see the conduit on females and vise versa?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br />Red Sox Fan &amp; Yankee Hater<br />kim: it's too cold there to smell<br /><b>Warder to the wonderful, amusing and ever so smart Elayne_Sedai</b><br />Friends don't let friends read Goodkind<br />My mind isn't always in the gutter, it just has VIP access</font><p><a href="http://tinyurl.com/45t6t" target="_blank">Simply Splendid </a></p><p></p>


created: 2004-06-07 12:54:51
subject: <b>Memory of Ying-Yang/Saidin-Saidar</b>
body:
I remember RJ saying that the dots were deliberately left out of the symbol to show disharmony between the two halves of the Power, between the two channeling genders. If what your theory says is true, then surely the increasing number of bondings and linkings between the two sexes would help the channelers realize it and put the dots back in the symbols. Once they work out the new relations, harmony would be found once more between them.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Gaeran Amaconde<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />Grand Historian at the Court of the Sun<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />One of Those Chosen to Bring the Light<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" />Master of Graendal's Revels<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" />&quot;If sometimes our dreams come true, what of our nightmares?&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-06-07 17:48:38
subject: <b>to callandor 1000</b>
body:
My personal answer to your questions relies completley on what Nynaeve experienced in her Test for Acceptance.  She percieved minute particles of the one power making up everything she saw, sort of like the equivalent of seeing atoms which are the building blocks of matter.  There is a chance that this is just an artifact of the ter'angreal but I would like to point out that the only channeling character we've ever seen percieve these minute traces of the One Power is also the first person in two Ages to heal severing.  Meaning that instead of her strange perception being a result of the ter'angreal it might be a talent specific to her.  There is also another instance in SR or FOH though I'd have to read it again to be sure were she see's a &quot;weave&quot; she shouldn't be able to see around the seal.  I have the distinct impression that it was an inverted weave which only Moggy should have been able to detect.  All of this means that since channeling is naturally occuring a conduit connected to a human being would most likely be one woven at this microscopic level imperceptable to all but the most sensitive channelers.  But in any case if I'm lucky RJ will pick my question to answer about this very subject.  Until then all of it is just supposition though I am obviously inclined to believe it a very good one.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where did these Skimmers come from?  I mean if they didn't want to read the book they could have just Traveled to another author.  Why risk arriving at the wrong destination?  Why risk falling into darkness?</font><p></p>


created: 2004-06-08 03:57:41
subject: <b>No to Onarishma whatever your name is</b>
body:
<br />The threads that had been used were extremely fine and could only be seen because she was strong enough to see them. If she could see inverted weaves she would have rumbled &quot;Marigan&quot; straight away.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">In no particular order:<br /><br />Rav<br />Belal's Girl<br />Lady Isa<br />Phil Reborn<br /><br />It was nice.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-06-08 16:44:05
subject: <b>I'm not sure what my name has to do with anything ...</b>
body:
But being able to do something does not mean being able to do it consistantly and secondly I did specify that I would have to read it again.   Thirdly it would only be an extra bonus if the weaves were inverted they were still near imperceptable and that suits my premise that &quot;weaves&quot; could exist at a &quot;atomic&quot; or &quot;molecular&quot; level imperceptable to most channelers.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where did these Skimmers come from?  I mean if they didn't want to read the book they could have just Traveled to another author.  Why risk arriving at the wrong destination?  Why risk falling into darkness?</font><p></p>


created: 2004-06-09 02:23:30
subject: <b>why cant males see the female conduit and vice versa...</b>
body:
well i think that maybe if this is correct they CAN see/sense it. remember males only FEEL Sadin in another, thus the thingling when a female embraces the scource, the tingling is sadin. with Saidar i dont know, maybe the light just isnt bright enough?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Anick alSev<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /><br /><i>&quot;Till shade is gone, till water is gone,<br />into the Shadow with teeth bared,<br />screaming defiance with the last breath,<br />to spit in Sightblinder's eye on the last Day!&quot;</i><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-green.gif" border="0" /> Jedi Guardian <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-green.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-06-11 23:36:05
subject: <b>Angreal and Ter'angreal</b>
body:
I agree with the idea that it takes saidin to channel saidar.<br /><br />I think the lack of male channelers is the reason there haven't been any new angreal made since the Breaking.  I think the Aes Sedai couldn't make new female angreal without the men and vice-versa.  Since they couldn't do it, no one could practice and the knowledge got lost.<br /><br />I'm not sure how the girls figuring out to make dream ter'angreal and those control collars fit in.  Perhaps Spirit channeling is different.


created: 2004-06-15 21:00:32
subject: <b>why women can't &quot;see&quot; men channel</b>
body:
Hey Anick alSev... cool extension of the thought on Saidin/Saidar conduits.  Men feel the single of Saidin when women channel...  Why can't women see the glow of Saidar when men channel?  My guess is because it's surrounded by Saidin.  Either the taint on the surface blocks the light, or Saidin, being the black half, is too dark to let the light through.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /> Survivor of Historical Inquizition ... barely <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Who can say if I've been changed for the better, but because I knew you I have been changed for good -- Wicked<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-06-16 05:19:59
subject: <b>I'm not sure...</b>
body:
after reading <i>just</i> the theory, I was inclined to disagree... but all the comments make good arguments. I'm going to go read Oni... whatever's post now, and see if that clears my head... sorry about the name thing. It's long. I'm sleepy... 'nuff said. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;For the lord, our god, has not given us a spirit of fear, yet of Power and of Love, and of a sound mind.&quot; ~ somewhere in one of the Thessalonians... <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-06-19 02:36:26
subject: <b>The proper way to heal severing is like this</b>
body:
When Nynaeve accidentally heals Logain it is done in a certain way. The weaving of the threads is used the same for either a man or woman who has been severed. However, when Logain is &quot;restored&quot; she was using Fire and Spirit. Fire is a male's strength. Women could be &quot;restored&quot; fully with either Water or Air just as men could be &quot;restored&quot; with either Fire or Earth. Certainly Spirit would have to be used with the ONE other element which most represents the severed person's former strength in the One Power. Additionally, some women could be &quot;restored&quot; fully with Fire or Earth as anomalies do exist.<br /><br />Just a thought.


created: 2004-06-26 03:12:56
subject: <b>hmmmmm.........</b>
body:
So, Aes Sedai would have to reach through a conduit of saidin to get to saidar? Reach through (now formerly) tainted saidin?<br /><br />I like this idea, because it would explain why most of the Aes Sedai are half-mad.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> Female Metalhead <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />&quot;Can you hear the violins playing your song?&quot;<br /><br />R.I.P. Dimebag Darrell 1966-2004</font><p></p>


created: 2004-06-28 00:06:06
subject: <b>Working Together</b>
body:
What if it only takes both Saidin and Saidar woven together to fully restore a gentling or stilling? It has been said that great things were done when both men and women worked together, and that is proven when Rand and Nynaeve cleanse Saidin.<br /><br />Perhaps working together in the restoring is the key.<br /><br />Linayus<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perplexed.gif" border="0" /> The Not-So-Wise-One? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smackhead.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Linayus <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />&quot;Kneel and swear to the Lord Dragon,&quot; he said softly, &quot;or you will be knelt.&quot; (Was that not the BEST ever? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/w00t.gif" border="0" /> )</font><p></p>


created: 2004-12-08 17:03:01
subject: <b>like it</b>
body:
good theory bt i vote no because if canneling through the taint wmoen would have gone mad too<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> let the speedbart ride again upon the winds of time <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Made the second post on the new WoTMB2 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-04-16 23:29:07
subject: <b>Exactly</b>
body:
When Logain came back to full pawer but the others didn't that is exactly what i thought. I think you hit it right on the head.


created: 2006-08-06 14:52:41
subject: <b>Interesting...</b>
body:
It certainly does explain why Siuan and Leane channel much less, and Logain can channel as much as before (or a change so slight it makes no difference), given what foolmentaljoker mentioned in a previous comment about &quot;leakage,&quot; which is not exactly what I believe is happening.<br /><br />What I do believe is happening is that the Saidar &quot;channels&quot; of Siuan and Leane are attracting the Saidar they attempt to channel, causing it to be clogged to the point of hardly letting any of the OP reach them.<br /><br />I view the channel as a straw, and where once the channel (straw) was saidin (plastic) sucking up the OP (water), now the channel is saidar (ice) sucking up the OP, which connects with the ice and freezes itself. The reason I believe Siuan and Leane can channel at all is because they were such strong channelers before, that they ability to draw the power (their ability to suck through the straw, as it were) is strong enough to force the water through before it freezes.<br /><br />(On a side note, I believe this also reveals something about what women are able to sense each other. The women are sensing the size of the straw each woman has that connects her to saidar, or perhaps not sensing the straw itself, but the empty space between through the straw, sincing saidar itself through the other woman. This would also explain how certain weaves can mask the ability to channel--covering up the straw with a thumb--or lessen it--placing a washer of a certain size over the straw, restricting what other women sense of the true source through you.<br /><br />And in another side note, it may be that this is how Lanfear had her ability increased by the 'Finns. They merely gave her a bigger straw made of saidin.)<br /><br />All in all, I enjoyed this theory.


created: 2007-03-14 01:28:04
subject: <b>./deep breath</b>
body:
WOW that is beautiful! I totally get it...I'm surprised no one else has seen that (well someone must have, it's SO obvious), especially since Yin, the black side is the female side, so why is it the other way around in wotworld?<br /><br />What's more likely: That RJ came up with the Dragon and the Dragon's Fang (or the flame of Tar Valon) first, that there is no conduit of the other half and that it's a coincidence that Gentling is Healed better by women, or that this is simply his most obvious symbol/foreshadowing?<br /><br />Another point is that he includes tons of symbols misenterpreted because of the winds of time, and it seems to be one of the main motifs of his writing (the back cover of the paperbacks?). Although barely anything is remembered from our (1st) Age in this 3rd Age, the Aes Sedai of the AoL must have taken the Yin Yang and removed the dots because although they understood that there were two conflicting, equal yet opposite sides, they didn't see any reason for the dots.<br /><br />Hmm...maybe the Yin Yang symbol is seen as being from the last Age (I forgot how many Ages there or, 4 or 5?), before us. So it's meaning, between the end of this age (when channeling was discovered) and the begining of the AoL (when the Aes Sedai were formed) was lost.<br /><br />Actually it seems more plausible now that the symbol would first have been made in the AoL and by the time it rolled around again people had forgotten what it stood for (Saidin and Saidar) so it had those two dots added to it, which have nothing to do with the OP. Or in the 3rd age they rediscover (or protodiscover) that there is Yin in Yang and vice versa.<br /><br />It might not be worth it to Jordan to explain the omitence of the dots in this future world by the time he finishes the books, but I think we might see that happen.<br /><br />/breathe<br /><br />P.S. Does anyone know where to find the short story by Robert Jordan I (thought I) read explaining the discovery of some people's ability to channel, the process of selectively breeding them by various nations and the world war that ensued, leading channelers the world over to form the Hall of Servants [to Man]?


created: 2007-06-15 18:42:36
subject: <b>yehh</b>
body:
that makes sense, but I always thought he just removed the dots and flipped the sides so he didn't run into legal trouble


created: 2004-06-03 15:10:26
subject: <b>I agree, I think</b>
body:
I'm not sure if I followed everything, but from what I understand, I agree.  When you are balefired, your thread in the pattern is burned back so far, therefore, I don't think there is anyway for you to come back, even if the person that did the balefiring got balefired back even further.  At least I think that's what you are saying.  I agree.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">The &quot;Original Genuine Article&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-06-03 18:49:25
subject: <b>what was this?</b>
body:
Forgive me if I sound like and idiot who missed the point of this but, it seems to me like all you have done is state what we already know about balefire. It removes your thread from the patern before the time at whitch you are balefired.


created: 2004-06-03 19:31:06
subject: <b>WHAT??????????</b>
body:
I could just barely make any sense out of that rambling epilouge.  I wonder how that even made it past submission?!


created: 2004-06-03 20:08:55
subject: <b>Well</b>
body:
If I understood your point you said that if you are balefired you are removed from the pattern permenatly even if your balefirer gets balefired. <br /><br />You would be right because RJ said so.


created: 2004-06-03 22:58:03
subject: <b>Mirrors of the Wheel</b>
body:
this could be the meaning of the Mirrors of the Wheel. When someone does something, it creates a Mirror in which he did not. If he is balefires and that thing is undone, it reverts to the Mirror.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">No one's taller than the LAST MAN STANDING!<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-06-04 00:27:07
subject: <b>and the fish is....</b>
body:
If you want a better understanding of that little fish story mybe you should read the books. that is vary nearly what happened to nynaeve while in Ebou Dar. she didn't live the same passage of time twice. only one memory<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">The great and dreadfull day is coming,<br />Chocolate will run out. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-06-04 05:56:37
subject: <b>ok...</b>
body:
I'm all cross-eyed and my brain is in tangles...<br /><br />please try to get a bit of organized structure into your theory, it would be so much easier to read then...<br /><br />Other than that, I got what you were trying to say in your theory! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />-Arun<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>I enjoyed Crossroads of Twilight!<br />If you feel the same way, join the 'CoT Appreciation Signature Club'</i><br /><br /><b>New Spring</b>:<br /><br /><b>Elaida</b>: Good luck on your test. DON'T MESS UP!!! DON'T GET NERVOUS!!!<br /><br /><b>Moiraine</b>: I made it.<br /><br /><b>Elaida</b>: Sh*t.</font><p></p>


created: 2004-06-04 13:35:35
subject: <b>Time Travel Paradox.</b>
body:
This is just the standard Time-Travel paradox.  Balefire has an effect BEFORE the time it occurs, just as you would if you went back in time and did something that had not occured.


created: 2004-06-08 02:39:13
subject: <b>I dont agree with this</b>
body:
Your theory lacks cohesion. You jump around, making it extremely hard to follow. Perhaps you should order your thoughts before submitting.<br /><br />Anyway, I also disagree with your explanation for balefire cancellation.<br /><br />I agree with shadowdicer's view that it involves 'mirrors'. I do accept that balefire is permanent, but it is because balefire removes you from the pattern, not just the world, so I would assume that you are removed from all mirror worlds also.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Asmodean is alive and posing as Sammael!<br /><br />Sammael <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sammy.gif" border="0" /> is Sparticus.<br /><br />No, I'm Sparticus! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /> = <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />I'm Herid Fel Reborn!!!!! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shy.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-06-08 04:03:09
subject: <b>I could hardly read this.</b>
body:
<br />As for the fish, it would only have memories of dying on deck but then it would suddenly be back in the water. It wouldn't have extra memories.<br /><br />I can't really comment further since the theory is very disjointed and hard to read.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">In no particular order:<br /><br />Rav<br />Belal's Girl<br />Lady Isa<br />Phil Reborn<br /><br />It was nice.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-06-08 22:32:42
subject: <b>Matt in tFoH</b>
body:
How would this relate to Mat not being dead even though he was killed by Ravhin.  Mat is alive because Rand balefired Ravhin. If I understand you, Mat should still be dead.  Am I confused?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Front Man for the MH club</font><p></p>


created: 2004-06-09 01:27:34
subject: <b>Well</b>
body:
I agree with most people on that this theory should have some better order, but i agree with cougar10, thats what i've always believed...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Sir, are you classified as human?&quot;<br />&quot;Negative, I am a meat popsickle&quot;<br /><br />~Anyone who knows what this is from gets 5 wSE points, maybe.</font><p></p>


created: 2004-06-16 05:04:02
subject: <b>Wow...</b>
body:
Um... since so many people have said it already, I won't say this was horribly disorganized... wait I did say it... OK, it's late, forgive the slight rudeness...<br /><br />Anywho, your theory took a whole lot of time to come to a point, used too many examples that said the same thing, jumped, skipped, and danced all over the main issue. I agreed with the final point, that balefire is permanent, and even if your balefirer is himself balefired, you're still dead, but dear, you took way too long to get to that point.<br /><br />I admit, I skimmed over the bits about sewing machines and fish and nets, the examples just made it drag. I like the way you're thinking, and I know it's hard to express it all. This is a difficult topic to nail down. Next time, be a little more concise and try to use a few less examples. They killed it for me.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;For the lord, our god, has not given us a spirit of fear, yet of Power and of Love, and of a sound mind.&quot; ~ somewhere in one of the Thessalonians... <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-06-17 13:31:16
subject: <b>I think this is why Balefire was banned.</b>
body:
Or at least part of the reason.<br />Maybe RJ added balefire into the story not as a plot device but just so his readers could spend hours thinking of things like this.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Ah-Moon-Dah Sedai, of the Purple Ajah.<br />Educator of Young Minds<br />Wife of the Great and Powerful O2<br />Roofmistress of Valinor<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-06-19 02:14:31
subject: <b>Response to a few of the above posts...</b>
body:
Griefold, this theory made it because virtually noone has submitted anything anytime recently.<br /><br />Couger10 and Beast_01, you are both very wrong. Mat would be, should be, and is still alive. He wasn't balefired- he was overcooked by a lightning bolt.<br /><br />Jear Rela, I totally agree with you. <br /><br />Dear authur,<br />    Please get to the point quicker next time and try not to ramble. Being sober as you write could help also. I really enjoyed your theory however, and am looking forward to your next amusing installment.


created: 2004-06-23 17:40:17
subject: <b>Huh?</b>
body:
Sorry you lost me at about the 2nd paragraph.<br />But if you are saying what everyone who posted says your theory amounted too... <br />Being balefired removes you from the pattern evenif the person who balefired you gets balefired.<br />Then I agree.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Egwene Fan  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/egwene.gif" border="0" /><br />Elaida will fall!!! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /> <br />Egwene is meant to rule the White Tower and even Rand will know her fury!! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-08-04 02:05:22
subject: <b>...</b>
body:
With Bob I thinkhes screwed. OK get this. think of balefire as FIRE if you burn a thread its gone even if you burnthe thread that burned it. because it was burned back. well if you were to stab bob in the heart i think your theory might work. ofcourse he would wake up screaming under 6 feet of earth. but thats just a sideaffect<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Soon comes the day all shall be free. 0<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br />Even you, and even me.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />Soon comes the day all shall die.:0<br />Surely you, but never I.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /><br />-Padan Fain <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-06-03 14:51:56
subject: <b>A few more thoughts....</b>
body:
I'm starting to like these Dark One possession theories.  Here's why...  Rand is an obvious Christ figure in the WoT and RJ has said that the conceit that he is using is that our myths and legends are based on facts of Rand's time and Rand's myths and legens are based on facts of our time.  This is a reasonably well accepted fact.  I think RJ does this with religions as well.  This could be an example of that.<br /><br />Here's what I mean....  a common teaching within Christianity is that when Christ died, he was bearing the burden of all of humanity's sins, or in more general terms all of humanity's evil.  It was only by accepting this burden that Christ was able to offer salvation to humanity and ultimately defeat sin/evil.  With Rand serving as an allegory to (or in a sense, a basis of) Christ, it would be very appropriate for him to die while literally bearing the full weight of the Dark One being within him. <br /><br />I'm not sure about the T'A'R theory being the actual means of recreating the DO's prison.  Guess I'll have to read your theory on that.  But, I still like the overall DO possessing Rand theory, so I gave this one a thumbs up!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">-Wildman<br />We need a StrongBad smiley code.</font><p></p>


created: 2004-06-03 17:28:32
subject: <b>umm, one question</b>
body:
I like the theory and maybe you can sort out this one question from me. If Rand allowed himself to be possessed by the DO, then wouldn't the DO control all of his actions? Cause that would make it kind of hard for him to decide to commit suicide <br />but i guess someone else could kill him


created: 2004-06-03 19:03:01
subject: <b>AHA!</b>
body:
and that's where Alivia comes in and does her magic...it's all coming together now...this theory is growing on me <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />/end<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I'm not dead yet<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-06-04 03:40:26
subject: <b>*semirhage* and Shadow</b>
body:
Well, if the DO possessed Rand, then it's a fight over who will control the body's actions. That's what the fight over identity is all about. As for Alivia, maybe Rand will be barely hanging on to control of his actions, just enough to not be doing anything. Then he'll ask Alivia to kill him, hand him his sword, or some such. I don't know. When it comes to Alivia, all I have is &quot;maybe&quot;s, no theories about her yet.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Bob L. Sedai (a.k.a. Luge) <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /><br />Fighting off the Taint - <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tinfoilhat.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" />Thanks given to Burr, the ever-helpful theory critic<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />And to Light in the Night, fellow theorist extraordinaire<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Voted Best Screenname 1 (one) years in a row.</font><p></p>


created: 2004-06-04 05:41:01
subject: <b>The Matrix of Time?</b>
body:
I like your theory!<br /><br />I gave it a thumbs up, regardless of it being a likely ending to the WoT or not...<br /><br />What I found quite amusing though is the fact that your theory read somewhat like the ending of the Matrix (Neo/Smith).<br /><br />Of course it doesn't fit in with a majority of details, but it still sounded similar..<br /><br />-Arun<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>I enjoyed Crossroads of Twilight!<br />If you feel the same way, join the 'CoT Appreciation Signature Club'</i><br /><br /><b>New Spring</b>:<br /><br /><b>Elaida</b>: Good luck on your test. DON'T MESS UP!!! DON'T GET NERVOUS!!!<br /><br /><b>Moiraine</b>: I made it.<br /><br /><b>Elaida</b>: Sh*t.</font><p></p>


created: 2004-06-04 13:39:18
subject: <b>I agree with the theory!</b>
body:
And also with Arun.  All I could think of were the Matrix parellels while reading this.<br /><br />As for those saying that the DO possessing Rand will let him control Rand's actions, I don't agree. Lews Therin posseses Rand in a way and it is stuggle for control, but Lews Therin does not control Rand totally.  I see the DO having to fight the same battle.


created: 2004-06-04 23:43:08
subject: <b>nah</b>
body:
Sorry, but I don't see this happening.  RJ wouldn't do it, and he shouldn't do it either.  It's way too much like THE MATRIX REVOLUTIONS (which I liked even if no one else did)and even more like Arnold Schwarzenegar's END OF DAYS (which I didn't like at all).<br /><br />You backed up your theory well, though.  It certainly is possible!


created: 2004-06-05 02:05:13
subject: <b>Personally,</b>
body:
IMHO, Rand is not essential for the Shadow's total victory or defeat.  The whole Sha'rah metaphor in PoD seemed to explain the situation pretty clearly: Rand is by far the most powerful &quot;game piece&quot; in the world, and it's very difficult to win without having him on your side, but he's ultimately just one piece in a much larger game.  <br />Of course, the Sha'rah scene _is_ from Moridin's PoV, so that could just be his own grossly distorted view of the universe, but it makes sense given how the Shadow has treated Rand thusfar in the series, keeping him alive as long as he serves their ends, but willing to kill him if he gets out of control.  And I don't think that that's just the Shadow's willingness to accept a small victory.  It really feels like the DO is going for the gold this time; I don't think he gets this close to winning the whole enchilada very often.


created: 2004-06-05 23:21:25
subject: <b>hmmm</b>
body:
The theory has merit, if only because there is precedent for the whole dark possession issue. Also, it's as good a guess as any on Alivia's eventual role.<br /><br />I voted thumbs up!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/clap.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lan.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/clap.gif" border="0" /><br />Nynaeve and Lan!<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-06-06 16:23:52
subject: <b>hmmmmm</b>
body:
if you take what everyone has commented and link it to Alivia's(sp?) making rand dead you would has a very feasible and comprehensive theory<br /><br />overall i like it<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Tel the ponderer of strange things <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wearer of the trilby <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> Blademaster <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-red.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-06-07 07:36:24
subject: <b>To further support your arguement...</b>
body:
Don't forget that Ishy's main direct attack at Rand in the Stone of Tear was an attempt to rip out Rand's soul....<br /><br />Fits pretty nicely with your theory.  Maybe Ishy was trying to take it for himself, or for his boss.


created: 2004-06-07 22:04:25
subject: <b>Seal</b>
body:
I like your theory but I have one problem with it. Somewhere it is mentioned that the world will not be done with battle after the Last Battle. Now before the bore there was not war or even crime. This leads me to believe that the Bore will not be sealed perfectly.


created: 2004-06-07 22:28:39
subject: <b>To Loial01</b>
body:
Do you really think that the current Westlands will needs the evil of the DO to continue the current wars? I mean all it takes is for Sevanna to survive, or for there to be questions as to who will rule Tear, or what happens when the Last Battle is done and the Seanchan want to rule the Westlands and the locals disagree? Or what about the Chaos in Arad Doman? That's far from over.<br /><br />Remember RJ said he will leave minor plot lines unresolved, meaning things won't end up so peacefully after Tarmon Gaidon.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Bob L. Sedai (a.k.a. Luge) <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /><br />Fighting off the Taint - <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tinfoilhat.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" />Thanks given to Burr, the ever-helpful theory critic<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />And to Light in the Night, fellow theorist extraordinaire<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Voted Best Screenname 1 (one) years in a row.</font><p></p>


created: 2004-06-08 09:33:14
subject: <b>war after TG</b>
body:
It's a breeding problem, of sorts.  There are too many people in the world now who are drawn to war.  The Aiel are very warlike - that's their identity - but I don't think anyone would argue that they're evil.  Once the DO is locked away I don't think you'll get many new darkfriends (what's the point since, as far as humans are concerned, the DO won't exist anymore)<br /><br />Over time, without the influence of the DO, humanity and civilization will thrive.  Advancements will be made and eventually there will be nothing to fight over anymore.  After *many many* generations, war will becom useless, then after more generations it will be forgotten.  Several ages later you get back to the AOL and someone drills a new bore.<br /><br />There are many thousands of years between the DO being re-sealed and the AOL happening again (5 ages is it?).  There's no need for there to be an end to violence and war right away.  Who's to say the DO doesn't get free again before the next 3rd age?  We have no idea what happens in those other 4-5 ages, we only know that there's a heck of a lot of time before all this happens again.<br /><br />As for the theory, I love it, def. thumbs up.....and a banana --&gt; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/blush.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Shadow Killer<br />Wolfbrother</font><p></p>


created: 2004-06-09 05:51:01
subject: <b>I like it!</b>
body:
There has to be a reason that Ishy has constantly tried to lure Rand to the Shadow. It would have been easy to kill him at any time, but there has always been more to it than that. <br /><br />Looking back to the War of the Shadow, we know that the Bore was open for many years and the DO never &quot;escaped&quot; from his prison. Was it simply a matter of the opening not being big enough? If that was all it was, certainly he had enough Forsaken to link and enlarge it. Obviously that was not the problem.<br /><br />Your explanation looks plausible to me. I give it a thumbs up!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2004-06-15 13:12:28
subject: <b>Good theory.</b>
body:
And you have a point LitN, as far as we know the (then much more numerous) Forsaken couldn't free the DO completely despite the fact the Bore was open and not sealed as it is in the Third Age.  <br /><br />We know for fact from the Guide there were plots against LTT himself during the War of Power (Lanfear being at the forefront of most) - perhaps the goal was to capture him and turn him to the Shadow, or the DO was on the look-out to seize his soul.<br /><br />Are the Chosen beside Moridin even aware this could be the DO's goal?  It seems very unlikely as in that case they would not fear that the DO would put Rand right over them - or in Lanfear's case she wouldn't dream of ruling side by side under the DO with LTT.<br /> <br />In any case, it seems to reinforce the idea that the Dark One will live up to his name of Father of Lies and never truly intended to give any power, perhaps not even life, to the Chosen once He has won.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="images/personalsmilies/30778.gif" />Wheel of Time Reference Library : Articles, maps, charts and misc.<img src="images/personalsmilies/30778.gif" /><br /><br /></font><p><a href="http://13depository.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">The Thirteenth Depository - a Wheel of Time Blog</a></p><p></p>


created: 2004-06-17 14:47:17
subject: <b>OOps</b>
body:
sorry that was the one I read before that starts kinda like yours. I am trying to read all these at once..silly me!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Egwene Fan  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/egwene.gif" border="0" /><br />Elaida will fall!!! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /> <br />Egwene is meant to rule the White Tower and even Rand will know her fury!! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-06-30 08:05:01
subject: <b>Perhaps thats Shaidar Haran's perpose...?</b>
body:
Perhaps thats Shaidar Haran's perpose...? Instead of 13 myrdraal, 13 dreadlords to turn someone to the shadow, 12 myrdrall plus shaidar haran... or maybe 13 myrdraal with shaidar haran weaving the flows through them - remember he can 'channel'...<br />that would be sooooooooooooooo cool.


created: 2004-08-04 11:43:40
subject: <b>Thats great, but....</b>
body:
Things/People in T'A'R can touch the pattern.<br /><br />Every remembers how Ishy would prick the boy's fingers or burn their hands, and when they woke, hey! they were still there.<br /><br />The same is true for Birgitte. She was part of the 'program' that spun her soul out time after time, but she was separated from the pattern and made mortal.<br /><br />The idea that the DO would be imprisoned in T'A'R is kinda wishy-washy. That would make it an eternal nightmare. Plus, Rand, Rhavin and others have stepped into T'A'R in the flesh, and step back out. What is so special about T'A'R that would prevent the DO from just stepping out of it in a human form?


created: 2004-08-11 21:14:40
subject: <b>To Lord Kaladar</b>
body:
The DO is imprisoned <i>behind</i> T'A'R. Read my other theories.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Bob L. Sedai (a.k.a. Luge) <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /><br />Fighting off the Taint - <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tinfoilhat.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" />Thanks given to Burr, the ever-helpful theory critic<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />And to Light in the Night, fellow theorist extraordinaire<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Voted Best Screenname 1 (one) years in a row.</font><p></p>


created: 2004-10-03 15:03:34
subject: <b>The Wheel and the DO</b>
body:
What you have to remember about the Wheel and the Dark One is that everything is cyclic.  I don't know how many ages go by before there is another &quot;Last Battle&quot; (maybe there's only one per each complete cycle of the Wheel), but there have been &quot;Last Battles&quot; before and there will be again.  I see the last battle as the Dark One's latest attempt to screw everything over.  Remember, the DO's ultimate goal is to UNmake everything - the entire Pattern.  Only Ishy knows about his ultimate plan.  This would be, I guess, like uber-balefire - the nuking of everything that Moiraine and Cadsuane were so scared about.  But why, you ask, did the Forsaken stop using it in the War of Power?  Because the DO works through human proxies.  He had to appease his minions enough to get them to do his bidding, and eventually,  when he's won Tarmon Gai'don, he can just screw them over.  Ishy can't do everything by himself.<br /><br />The fact that past Dragons turned to the Shadow doesn't really mean anything.  If they weren't Dragons during an age with a Last Battle, then that just messed up that Age, nothing else.  But if the DO turns Rand to the Shadow during this Age, then the world's in trouble, because the Last Battle's victory condition for the Light hinges upon Rand's good-guy status.<br /><br />Now, what about Ishamael?  He's the only Forsaken who knows all the nitty-gritty details about the DO.  Notice all  the others think that the DO will let them rule over the world after the Day of Return.  Ishy's style is maniuplation from the shadows.  From his POV in PoD, it's clear that he realizes that when he goes out in the open, when he loses control, he gets whacked.  Rand running off to Tear in TDR caused him to lose control of events.  He didn't know where Rand was.  (See all of Egwene's dreams in the TDR, and Perrin's dream where Ishy's mad at Be'lal for causing Rand to run off to Tear.)  By the end of TDR, Ishy wasn't controlling both sides of the sha'rah game anymore, and he decided to just whack Rand and end it for this Age.  I like how this theory speculates about how the DO needs Rand ALIVE to actually win the Last Battle, through possession.  Killing Rand would make the DO wait another turning of the Wheel before he's this close to winning the battle again, through possession of the Dragon as outlined in the theory.


created: 2005-03-01 02:11:41
subject: <b>Very interesting</b>
body:
I think you have some good ideas there.  I've always thought that Rand would be turned somehow.  However, before reading your post I thought it might mean that the DO actually wins.  I like how you took that and turned it into a victory for the Light.<br /><br />I guess it seems too much of a coincidence to me that RJ kept mentioning 13 throughout the story thus far (along with the general belief until recently that there would be 13 books).  Almost as if he was hinting that it would play a key role in the end of the story.  <br /><br />Along with this, I can remember reading an interview a while back (probably 1-2 years ago) where he said that he always knew what the outcome would be, even before writing the first book.  Seems to me that he wouldn't have written all of these books if the ending he had in mind was as cliche as the good guys winning.  <br /><br />But then again, maybe it's just because I enjoy twists at the end in which the 'good guys' victory isn't always so clear.


created: 2007-06-13 18:11:46
subject: <b>No</b>
body:
Why would the DO need to posses Rand and get killed, that is stupid, IMO all the DO needs to do is create so much chaos that the wheel seems nothing like the way the creator intended it, then the wheel is broken, the DO could then remake it into his world.


created: 2007-06-18 19:20:29
subject: <b>eh</b>
body:
while I think this theory is good, and the possession theory is starting to grow on me, it relies on one major malcalculation: trusting the word of the DO. Isnt he called the Father of Lies? To me that doesnt make for a very trustworthy fellow.<br /><br />And on top of that, the quote wherein the DO states that the Dragon has submitted to him and ruled under him many times before is a paradox. If we are going with common belief, it has always been the same soul that has been the Dragon, the same soul has been the creators champion (also note that the DO provides immortality). If this soul is turned to the Shadow and rules in its name, what soul is the creator going to spin out that is going to defeat this strongest of souls. Therefore a submission to the Shadow is eternal in the case of the Dragon


created: 2004-06-03 14:50:17
subject: <b>Nope</b>
body:
I'm sorry to say that I stopped reading this after the first paragraph.  The Age of Legends was the Second Age, we're reading about the end of the Third Age.  So your whole premise about everything happening the same as the AOL is way off.  There are 5 other ages that we have no information about, and assuming the each separate age recreates the same situation has been thoroughly dismissed.  Each Third Age may be, overall, the same, but the Second Age (AOL) and the Third Age will be different than the Forth Age.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Questions, Comments, Thoughts?<br /><br />Geoff<br /><br />Artificial Intelligence <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/r2d2.gif" border="0" /> <br />is no match for<br />Natural Stupidity <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-06-03 20:22:53
subject: <b>Ummm</b>
body:
Your theory seemed to be based on a very wrong premise. There is no evidence that the current age will follow a similar path to the Age of Legends. <br /><br />The way Robert Jordan explained the Wheel of Time is that each third age is similar to each previous third age (etc). Even then they won't be identical. I believe he used the example of a tapestry or maybe it was a stain glass window. I think a photo mosiac is easier to understand. If you have two photo mosiacs of the same image they looks very similar from a distance. But the more carefully you look the more you realize that they are made up of completely different pieces.<br /><br />Even when the next Age of Legends comes it will not be the same. There will probably be Foresaken but not exactly the same number, that sort of thing. <br /><br />Perhaps you would be right if this were the next coming of the Age of Legends, but this is a different age. There are 7 ages to every turning of the wheel and nothing says there is any similarity between those.


created: 2004-06-05 14:53:15
subject: <b>sorry</b>
body:
sorry about this perticular theory, it was actually late at night and I didn't realize that I had merged 2 of my actual theorys and posted half of one and half of another. I know that the theory doesn't make sense and alot of material I should have added for it to be clear was left out. After I get back from my new posting I will try to submit both of my theorys properly and they should make sense then.<br />Once again I am sorry for the way this theory reads.


created: 2004-06-06 03:28:34
subject: <b>um.. what?</b>
body:
Even with the whole splitting up of theories so the theory makes no sense... the specific parts of the theory makes no sense...<br />i think you're taking the whole wheel analogy too far. To use the argument that Rand can't take 100 men who channel saidin to the bore without bringing women, is really simple-minded... the repetition that comes w/ the wheel is global events... as in, in this age: the Dark One's forces become a force that must be reckoned with by the forces in the Light and TG is that final reckoning... etc... the ideas are grand in scope, and tell nothing of how the events will fully play out...<br /><br />As a result, i think the whole premise of your arguments are off the mark and as a result your conclusions are as well...


created: 2004-06-08 19:42:05
subject: <b>Your wheel seems to be spinning to fast</b>
body:
You need to switch down to a lower gear.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;I can express more emotion than laughter, anger and let's . . .&quot;<br /><br />Shooganooga<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-06-11 16:32:28
subject: <b>doesn't matter, but....</b>
body:
This doesn't really affect your theory, but there were 113 channelers in the hundred companions, or was it 113 plus Lews? i forget. sorry to be picky...


created: 2004-06-16 15:29:17
subject: <b>I found this confusing...</b>
body:
I always thought that it took 7 ages for the Wheel to make a complete turn.  Therefore this 3rd age would be similar to the last 3rd age...  I don't think however, that everything has to happen *exactly* the same way in each age; all of the characters have a certain amount of free will in their choices.  <br /><br />Didn't Ishmael (as Bazelmon) tell Rand that the Dragon had been turned to the shadow in the past?  I know he's lied about other things; but I tend to think that each time the ages come and go certain key elements have to occur (like the Dark One escaping, being selaed, TG, and the prison being made whole again); but I think that they way in which they happen is unique to each cycle...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>- Heather</b><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-06-20 10:39:33
subject: <b>To Thalis:</b>
body:
There were 113 men in the Hall of Servants who supported LTT, according to &quot;The Strike at Shayol Ghul.&quot;  Thus there were 114 if he is included.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Who we were is lost to all men, and life is bitter.&quot;<br />&quot;Expect nothing, and you will not be surprised.&quot;  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-06-22 15:52:27
subject: <b>I'll pass on that....</b>
body:
I have no desire to &quot;bare&quot; with you.  Keep your clothes on.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Who we were is lost to all men, and life is bitter.&quot;<br />&quot;Expect nothing, and you will not be surprised.&quot;  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-06-23 16:52:37
subject: <b>What?</b>
body:
Normally there are 8 spokes on a wheel. <br /><br />I don't remember ever seeing anything about there being 7 ages to the wheel of time but I will take your word for it.(shawan01)<br />So lets say there are 7 ages so in turn that would give the WoT 7 spokes if we think of as a real wheel.<br />My point is that I think that the AoL was the 1st age and that the end of that age is when Lanfear drilled the hole in the DO prison.If you remember she did this accidently and that noone in the AoL remembered war or evil.<br /><br /> LTT then sealed the bore in the 2nd age when the DO was touching the world thus causing him and the 113 companions to go mad with the taint on sadian. These men then broke the world. This is the 2nd age. Everyone in despair until the men are all dead or gentled. The Ogier finally find the steddings again and everything is Ok enoughfor humanity to rebuild.<br /><br />I am not sure when the 2nd age stops and the 3rd age begins but I think it is in Hawkings time.<br /><br />Now we are in the 3rd age and the DO is breaking free of his temporary prison. The Wheel sees the need for a savior and the Dragon is born on the slopes of Dragonmaount according to prophecy.(Don't ask my thoughts on the Prophecys it is way to long)<br />The end of the 3rd age is near. If I am correct in assuming that Elaynes twins will herald the 4th age we got about 6-7 months. I don't think the end of the 3rd age is going to be TG. I think it will be the battle at the WT that is about to happen. And also let me add that Rand must bind the nations together before TG.<br />So lets say that TG is the start of the 4th age. And lets add to that that Rand will defeat the DO like he has to according to the Wheel.here is where I think Rand will somehow break the world again.<br /> The 5th age is another rebuilding and war between nations age.<br /><br />This leaves us with the 6th,and 7th ages. These are ages over peace and the Light. This is how when the 1st age comes again noone alive can remember a time of war or evil.<br />The world is once again at its peak!(per say)<br /><br />This is my theory on how the ages flow..<br />The begining of every book explains the turning of the wheel. <br /><br />The Wheel of Time turns and ages come and go. Legends become myth and when the age that gave it birth comes again even that is forgotten. The Wheel has no beginnings or endings but this was a beginning...(not word for word but I don't have my books handy)<br /><br /><br />So in essence even if you have to seperate theorys in this one I can agree with any of them..<br /><br />Sorry so log but I hate to make a statement and not tell my reason behind it.<br /><br />Comments? <br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Egwene Fan  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/egwene.gif" border="0" /><br />Elaida will fall!!! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /> <br />Egwene is meant to rule the White Tower and even Rand will know her fury!! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-06-23 17:06:51
subject: <b>spelling error</b>
body:
I meant that I CAN'T agree with any theory like yours.<br />Sorry I was trying to type to fast for my fingers.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Egwene Fan  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/egwene.gif" border="0" /><br />Elaida will fall!!! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /> <br />Egwene is meant to rule the White Tower and even Rand will know her fury!! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-07-30 09:03:01
subject: <b>To MEah</b>
body:
Wow you are as off based as this theory.  You simplify the ages to fit what you think and that is not right.  An age ends with cataclysmic events or is born slow turmoil of unrecorded human activity.  By trying to say all the ages will happen so rapidly leaves out a lot.  Who is to say that hte 4th age won't last 60,000 years and the 7th age another 936.2 billion years as the entire Universe is destroyed and rebuilt with the 1st age not coming until mankind evoles society and such.  Just because the third age only lasted 3,000 years means nothing.  Going at that rate the Earth would be reborn every 21,000 years and no I don't think so.  I betting the AoL was a lot longer as well.<br /><br />To the posting of this theroy you obviouly have the enthuiasm of a WOT fan but take more careful time.  Your posting makes little sense to the rest of us when you don't have proof or a well established arguement.  I know I posted a theroy with out much proof or thought.  It helps to work it out and write it down outside of the theory post first.  I have seen some really excellent theories here and it has inspired me to make a better try next time.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Deserves got nothing to do with it. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bobbafett.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-06-24 15:54:22
subject: <b>Very Nice</b>
body:
I definatley have to give it up to you for writting an original theory.  Very nice.<br /><br />The only real things that come to my mind is this.  That the ward itself would have to have been linked to the existance of the Eye of the World, and also it would have been linked to the <i> user </i> of the Eye itself.<br /><br />Rand jumps from the the Green Man's domain, to the edge of that cliff, to Tarwin's Gap, to that odd room where Ishy was and back through.  The entire time he was channeling from the Eye...so if your theory is correct, than that ward that has properties akin to T'A'R would have to not only been linked to the Eye, but the user of the Eye as well.<br /><br />It was said several times over that the Eye of the World was created for when the Dragon (and subsequently the world) was at it's greatest moment of need.  I like that that *need* was just about quite literally....<br /><br />Good job,<br /><br />Jeordam<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Near-Brother to Roonas <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /><br />Admin of the Art Gallery<br />Admin of all that is WoT</font><p><a href="http://www.startrek.com" target="_blank">Boldly Go</a></p><p></p>


created: 2004-06-24 16:45:17
subject: <b>I like it...</b>
body:
Great idea - I would like to hear exactly how RJ himself would characterize the place of the Green Man.<br /><br />A few comments:<br /><br />-I agree, it seems that sometime after the tGH is when RJ decided on the current form of travelling - before then it is inconsistent.<br /><br />-It is curious that Balthemal and Aginor were able to follow the dagger from SL to place. I'm not sure that your explaination of the wards is very satisfying - though I don't have a better one. Perhaps Rand's presence destroyed the wards before he accessed the EotW.<br /><br />-How do you explain where the Green Man's place ended up after his death? Was this location, the actual location that it always was - and people with need were 'transported' there in some way (this is what it seems the Green Man says). However, I alway had the impression that it ended up at the same place that Rand and co. were when they were 'transported' there.<br /><br />Great theory.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Need a book to read - check out my blog for ideas.</font><p><a href="http://nethspace.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">Neth Space</a></p><p></p>


created: 2004-06-24 19:57:28
subject: <b>yay, a new theory!</b>
body:
I think that you did a good job of explaining the inconsistencies between descriptions of travelling in the first book and in later books.<br /><br />Somehow I had never made the connection between the &quot;need&quot; techinique that Nynaeve et al used in T'ar and the way that the green man's place was found...  I don't completely understand your explaination of why/how it works, but all in all I like this theory<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>- Heather</b><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-06-24 21:01:34
subject: <b>Umm...sorry</b>
body:
But I already posted a theory like this. We pretty much say the same thing, just say it in different ways. I think I called my theory &quot;The Green Man's Place&quot;<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Bob L. Sedai (a.k.a. Luge) <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /><br />Fighting off the Taint - <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tinfoilhat.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" />Thanks given to Burr, the ever-helpful theory critic<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />And to Light in the Night, fellow theorist extraordinaire<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Voted Best Screenname 1 (one) years in a row.</font><p></p>


created: 2004-06-24 21:05:49
subject: <b>Great work!</b>
body:
I'm very excited to read anything about tel'aran'rhiod or dreams in general with KoD brewing away in South Carolina.  And this was a great read to boot!<br /><br />I think we're seeing several things tied into tel'aran'rhiod, and it seems to me that for some of them it's due to their proximity to Shayol Ghul.  I'm beginning to think that Shayol Ghul, and the Blight, is almost like a borderland between reality and nightmare/dream.  Somehow the Dark One's influence is blurring the distinction between the Unseen world and the Waking world.<br /><br />Perhaps that is why the ancient Aes Sedai placed the Green Man there, and the ward is more about protecting his place, or keeping it hidden.  It does beg the question of why didn't Ishamael destroy the Green Man when he was free, if he couldn't get the Black Ajah to do it?<br /><br />I would love to know the role of the Ways in all this, too.  There are a couple dream sequences that seem to take place in the dreaming version of the Ways, but none of the good dreamwalkers have ever found it.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Diomedes <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-06-25 10:56:55
subject: <b>To Diomedes</b>
body:
The reason Ishy and the Black Ajah never killed the Green Man is that they could only get to him with a need. If they went out serching for him, it would never be need in their minds, only desire.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Bob L. Sedai (a.k.a. Luge) <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /><br />Fighting off the Taint - <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tinfoilhat.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" />Thanks given to Burr, the ever-helpful theory critic<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />And to Light in the Night, fellow theorist extraordinaire<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Voted Best Screenname 1 (one) years in a row.</font><p></p>


created: 2004-06-25 12:32:58
subject: <b>Green Man? Donde?</b>
body:
Nice job putting together a comprehensive theory.  I just want to point out a couple things.<br /><br />If people can get to Green-place just by need, why do they need to travel all through the Blight to find it?  Why can't they go to it, or near it, instantly, like the ladies did in looking for the Bowl of Winds?<br /><br />Maybe RJ did change the traveling rules.  Neither Rand nor the baddies had spent enough time in Green-place to be able to travel from there.  Yet he didn't skim until after Tarwin's Gap.<br /><br />Instead of being a TAR thing or having a TAR doorway, isn't it possible that all of Green-place is just a big ter'angreal that only admits people at need?  The Finn doorways show that it is possible for ter'angreals to selectively reroute (or not) people.<br /><br />In response to the poster who speculated that AoL Aes Sedai put wards on Green-place to protect it from the Blight -- I don't think the Blight was there back then.  It has grown a lot lately - swallowing all of Malkier in just Lan's lifetime.<br /><br />Although I think it is clear that the OP has a lot to do with the Green-place, I think it makes more sense to chalk its unique characteristics up to AoL oddity (like treesinging) than a TAR connection.  We've not seen any other examples of TAR being just a little conduit.  Moreover, even traveling in TAR in the flesh requires moving from place 1 to place 2.  Rand simply doesn't experience that in TEOTW.  <br /><br />Sorry for the disjointedness.  Good theory, though.


created: 2004-06-25 12:44:55
subject: <b>Nice thoughts, but no.</b>
body:
It's obious the place was warded. With very complex ward, that allows Green Man to select which person can enter it. No living person could un-ward that place, until Forsaken came along. Remember that the place was created after the Bore was sealed (memories from Rhuedin), meaning there were no powerful enough channelers with knowledge after that to solve that ward problem.<br /><br />Besides, the place was definitely in the real world and in the real place. When Green Man died and Loyal sang the tree, the tree was visible for a long time when they left the place. IIRC, it was visible even when they were in the Blight itself.


created: 2004-06-25 16:43:14
subject: <b>Good theory</b>
body:
Very solid and interesting theory - you back up everything by pulling in lots of different threads of the story.  I'm glad that you make sure to reiterate that the Green Man's place is physical, but something still feels a bit wrong with your conclusion. Firstly, I suspect that Aes Sedai would notice *something* about the ward itself, even if it were inverted. Secondly, if it were a place that could be reached by channeling, maybe the Dreadlords in the Trolloc Wars would have figured out how to get there - note that Ishy was never fully trapped, so he would have had time to inspect it himself or teach the Dreadlords how to enter the place (or the Black Ajah as noted above).  <br /><br />Like with any good restaurant or business, a big factor is location, location, location.  Perhaps the properties of &quot;space&quot; near the Seal are more maleable - maybe it's easier to make a moving &quot;place&quot; near the Seal instead of a need-based &quot;shortcut in space&quot; that pulls people through TAR and into the Green Man's garden - sounds like a welfare system for teleporters if you ask me. It must have been put in the worst locale on the planet for a reason - which I won't bother to speculate about since too many good reasons come to mind.  Still, your theory is still appealing because need was the key to finding the jolly green garden, and need is such a factor in TAR that it's hard to just blow off some kind of link between the two.  Personally, I prefer the idea that the place itself somehow moves...<br /><br />An interesting side note - there has been one exception to &quot;the teleportation without a gateway&quot; thing: at least once, we've seen Ishy just vanish and reappear somewhere by using the True Power - it happened at the very beginning of the first book.  It also happened again, assuming he was the person watching Avhienda and co leave Ebou Dar to complete the dumbest bargain in history.  That's my two cents.<br /><br />P.S. - Once Jordan introduced it, I'ce always believed that Rand Skimmed to his first real fight with Ishy.


created: 2004-06-25 21:51:37
subject: <b>To The Fisher King</b>
body:
&quot;If people can get to Green-place just by need, why do they need to travel all through the Blight to find it? Why can't they go to it, or near it, instantly, like the ladies did in looking for the Bowl of Winds?&quot;<br /><br />Remember that the Blight has some dimensional funkiness to it. That might be one reason you can only get to the Green Man's place from the Blight. Also, remember that Moiraine said it's usually found on the other side of the Blight where things are insanely dangerous. Basically, the more dangerous a place, the more likely someone will have need that will get them to the Green Man's place. The Aes Sedai who made the Green Man's Place made it in preparation for &quot;the time of mankind's greatest need&quot; or something to that effect. They likely made it so that you need an enormous degree of need to get there. Just by needing to earn more money living down in Andor won't get you there.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Bob L. Sedai (a.k.a. Luge) <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /><br />Fighting off the Taint - <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tinfoilhat.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" />Thanks given to Burr, the ever-helpful theory critic<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />And to Light in the Night, fellow theorist extraordinaire<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Voted Best Screenname 1 (one) years in a row.</font><p></p>


created: 2004-06-26 11:26:18
subject: <b>Question</b>
body:
Just a thought.. If getting into the Green Man's place involves extradimensional travel, does it then mean that the corruption of the Blight can cross into Tel'aran'rhiod? Because in the last chapters, it is told in length how the taint slowly manifests itself inside the garden.. Sort of like the corruption of the Ways? Or more of something of permanence that translates into a more solid reality inside the dreamworld (you know, like when you're in T'A'R and paper suddenly returns to the table after you've picked it up). Hope I got my point across.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Granting you and I argue<br />If you get the better of me<br />Are you right and I wrong?<br />If I get the better of you<br />Am I right and you wrong?<br />Or are we both right?<br />Or are we both wrong?<br />Since you and I cannot know<br />We all live in darkness</font><p></p>


created: 2004-06-27 05:59:57
subject: <b>To Leandro Gaidin</b>
body:
Well, remember first that the interdimensional nature of the Gree Man's Place is a result of the work of a group of Aes Sedai. It's possible that they built theiur work on preexisting multidimensional funkiness in the Blight, but that's just speculation. What we do know for sure is that you can't go to the Blight in T'A'R.<br /><br />The last chapters of what? By &quot;the garden&quot; do you mean the Gree Man's Place?<br /><br />Hope this helps.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Bob L. Sedai (a.k.a. Luge) <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /><br />Fighting off the Taint - <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tinfoilhat.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" />Thanks given to Burr, the ever-helpful theory critic<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />And to Light in the Night, fellow theorist extraordinaire<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Voted Best Screenname 1 (one) years in a row.</font><p></p>


created: 2004-06-27 10:20:01
subject: <b>mat</b>
body:
maybe the reason ishamael or some dreadlord did'nt just use the one power to get to the green mans place was because they could not find it. remember that when aginor and belthamel found it, mat whith the dagger from <br />shadar logot was there.<br /><br />&lt;Q&gt;<br />&quot;Who are you?&quot; Lan's stance was cautious, his hand on his sword hilt. &quot;How did you come<br />here? If you are seeking the Green Man - &quot;<br />&quot;He guided us.&quot; The hand that pointed to Mat was old and shriveled to scarcely human,<br />lacking a fingernail and with knuckles gnarled like knots in a piece of rope. Mat took a step back,<br />eyes widening. &quot;An old thing, an old friend, an old enemy. But he is not the one we seek,&quot;<br />&lt;/Q&gt;<br /><br /> maybe they could use that dagger as a sort of focus point to find where rand &amp; co was?<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /> Erquu Blue <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-06-27 14:33:32
subject: <b>The point is about the nature of the ward, Erquu</b>
body:
It seemed that Cannoli was trying say that this hypothetical ward the ancient Aes Sedai placed around the Green Man's place was designed to create a similarity between his place and tel'aran'rhiod.  <br /><br />My point was that it seems to make more sense if any ward is really designed to hide the Green Man's place from Shadowy detection and protect it from the corruption of the Blight.  <br /><br />The ward doesn't need to create a connection to tel'aran'rhiod because the Green Man's place was located near Shayol Ghul, a place where that connection already exists in some fashion between the Unseen World and the Waking World.<br /><br />The fact that Balthamel and Aginor used to the Shadar Logoth dagger to locate our heroes at the Green Man's place might back that up, as well as the fact that Ishy was never crashed the Green Man's party during the last 3,000 years.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Diomedes <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-06-27 14:35:31
subject: <b>Excellent theory</b>
body:
A very well thought out theory. I especially like the allude to need. It was also the key to finding the bowl of the winds , if that can be seen as a parallel.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">A One Power researcher<br />Defender of Lanfear<br />Grand Ninja-Nae'blis to be feared <br />Original Warder to Isa <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br />New Warder to Nossie <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />Toy to Seriana <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/winky.gif" border="0" /><br />Mystified by a Fan <br />Bonded Phelix - I was young, it happened so fast.</font><p></p>


created: 2004-06-28 07:56:18
subject: <b>Why the blight?</b>
body:
If we postulate that access to the Green Man's place is granted based upon need, then we can get at least 2 kinds of people trying to get in.  Those that are friends with need of help, and those that are enemies with need to harm (harm the Green Man).  If the designers want only friends to be able to access the Green Man's place, then what better way to help weed out the enemies than by choosing those who are in trouble <i>in the waste</i>.  I think that this is a rather brilliant way to help weed out enemies, who would be more likely to be protected from some of the more evil things in the blight.  If you have need, are in trouble, and are in the blight, then you are more likely to be given access.


created: 2004-07-01 02:54:10
subject: <b>And the same theory can explain the horn also...</b>
body:
This is a great theory. It explains why the method of travel was different, and also explains how the location seems to change.<br /><br />The same theory can also explain how the horn works - it sets up a large warding area which acts like the green man's place, and then allows the dead heroes to enter it from Tel'aran'rhiod. It explains why the same strange method of travel (it is used in The Great Hunt when Rand goes to where Ba'alzamon is).<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Asmodean is alive and posing as Sammael!<br /><br />Sammael <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sammy.gif" border="0" /> is Sparticus.<br /><br />No, I'm Sparticus! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /> = <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />I'm Herid Fel Reborn!!!!! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shy.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-07-03 04:04:34
subject: <b>Why the ward? and why so far north?</b>
body:
Just to expound a bit, I believe that an explanation for why he AoL AS warded the Green Man's place in the way that I have suggested is that they had no idea what threats it might face.  They made it accessible to people who truly believed they NEEDED to find it.  If it can avoid people who seek it for glory, than obviously it could elude those who seek it for even worse reasons.  Since others have found the Eye between its hiding and its destruction, the GM's Place was not meant for the exclusive use by the Dragon Reborn, so a Callandor-style defense would not have been acceptable.  <br />As for the fact that one has to enter the Blight to find it, I suppose that since it was made before the Breaking, they had no control over its exact placement.  Perhaps they hadn't anticipated how far the Blight would have spread by then, or maybe it was placed relatively close to Shayol Ghul for a reason.  After all, all the items hidden there are in some way related to the Last Battle.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


created: 2004-07-04 02:27:10
subject: <b>Another Theory complementing this one...</b>
body:
was posted by Bobsledai, which I found by running a search of his name.  His theory does indeed cover the same points as mine, and I recommend people who like this theory read his as well, as it was posted well before mine, and he should get the credit for coming up with the same idea idependantly.  While mine is longer (an often commented-upon trait of my theories and posts) his has just as much intellectual merit as this one.  I apologize for not checking more thoroughly to see if this material was covered, but I can only claim that my own theory was in no way duplicated from his, and grew out of a discussion on the Message Board, where no one had put anything like my idea in the discussion of the topic at hand (I posted this theory weeks ago, so I don't remember what was the tpic on the message board which inspired this).  <br />Not to criticize the admins, who I feel do a wonderful job keeping this site open, and supplying a much needed WoT fix between new releases, but the warnings in the Submission Form suggest it will not be posted if there is already a good enough theory covering the same concept.  I was counting on that to catch a redundant theory if I inadvertantly posted one.  I would like to thank bobsledai for his gracious commentary and support of the theory posted above when accusations of plagiarism would have been understandable.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


created: 2004-07-06 15:42:58
subject: <b>m/, ^^ ,m/</b>
body:
Hmm, I don't think it was made before the Breaking. I seem to remember reading that a lot of Aes Sedai died just to make that pure pool of saidin, and I don't think they'd go to all that trouble if saidin wasn't tainted. <br /><br />Also, I think the Green Man's place was placed intentionally inside the Blight because of the factor of need in entering it. Presumably, forces of the Dark woudn't be in need right in their home court. And it was placed well within the Blight (Rand&amp;Co had to cross the Mountains of Dhoom).<br /><br />I can't remember who first thought of that angle (just scroll up and look), but props for the idea.<br /><br />And last, just a thought. I think the only reason other people besides Rand were allowed to enter was so he could learn about it. Moiraine said it herself, you're not allowed inside a second time. As for all the others who were allowed entry, all the way back to the Breaking, they got in just so they can pass the information to the succeeding generations. So when the time comes, Rand knows where to go, and what to do.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Granting you and I argue<br />If you get the better of me<br />Are you right and I wrong?<br />If I get the better of you<br />Am I right and you wrong?<br />Or are we both right?<br />Or are we both wrong?<br />Since you and I cannot know<br />We all live in darkness</font><p></p>


created: 2004-07-08 03:15:59
subject: <b>Some points -</b>
body:
As to why Ishamael or the Black Ajah weren't able to find and destroy the Green Man's place (or the Garden as I like to call it), the post answers this itself.<br /><br />&quot;Need is the key. Need, and intention.&quot;<br /><br />Well, we all know about the need part. But if the Green Man can read the intentions of a person, I don't think he'd let anyone with even a streak of evil inside. Even if we assume that Ishamael was powerful enough to circumvent this (and we're not sure he was; he was still partially bound right? which also agrees with why he was content with pulling Hawkwing's strings instead of seizing power for his own), remember that Garden and the pool of saidin inside was created during or after the Breaking. Its unlikely that  information about its existence would be leaked to Ishamael, by then a known minion of the Dark One.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Granting you and I argue<br />If you get the better of me<br />Are you right and I wrong?<br />If I get the better of you<br />Am I right and you wrong?<br />Or are we both right?<br />Or are we both wrong?<br />Since you and I cannot know<br />We all live in darkness</font><p></p>


created: 2004-06-29 12:13:19
subject: <b>Interesting</b>
body:
I agree with you that the power of the angreal is dependent on the size and strength of the circle. I'm not sure about men though , because there really is no proof either way.<br /><br />In my opinion the Forsaken haven't made an angreal for the following reasons ... (any)<br /><br />1. They don't trust each other to link.<br />2. They don't have the technology.<br /><br />Remember , they were Aes Sedai and went through an exceptional training program. I have no doubt that they know how to make an angreal because it is core knowledge of being a channeler.<br /><br />My example is a computer. If a computer programmer is thrown back to the Dark ages , there are only so many reasons he won't make a new one.<br />1- The other programmers who came with him won't help him because it will give him &quot;godly&quot; powers.<br />2- They don't have the components e.g. microchips.<br />3- They don't have the machinery e.g. a microscope or welder.<br />4- They actually don't know how.<br /><br />Perhaps angreal were made by a machine , or a special substance but that is less likely. We cannot say. I voted yes though because the jist of the theory agrees.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">A One Power researcher<br />Defender of Lanfear<br />Grand Ninja-Nae'blis to be feared <br />Original Warder to Isa <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br />New Warder to Nossie <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />Toy to Seriana <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/winky.gif" border="0" /><br />Mystified by a Fan <br />Bonded Phelix - I was young, it happened so fast.</font><p></p>


created: 2004-06-29 12:34:04
subject: <b>mostly but not the creation bit</b>
body:
Why not just have linked men making male angreal? And I think although we have no proof yet, the ratio 13:1 works with circles of men linked as well as women.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> If you could choose the world you lived in? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> - servant of <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /> - <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-06-29 13:56:56
subject: <b>Mellar</b>
body:
Nope.  Men can't link.  It's a compensation for the strength difference between them and women.<br /><br />ToT<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> The wheel weaves...and weaves...and weaves...and weaves <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /> It's time for a showdown <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gholam.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-06-29 14:25:04
subject: <b>Level theory</b>
body:
From what I've read and understand of angreal and sa'angreal, they multiply the amount you can safely take in.  When Elayne's looking through the stuff brought out of Ebu Dar, she remarks that one of the angreal she found would allow her to pull almost twice as much as she would without it, ...and Nyneave could do even better... or something to that effect.  (Don't have the correct book with me at the moment.)  So an angreal multiplies, depending on its power and a sa'angreal (IMO) exponentially increases a user's ability.  So a weak angreal might double your ability, and a weak sa'angreal might square your ability.  A channeler wouldn't make an angreal based on strength, but on its multiplyer.  The stronger the circle, the stronger the angreal.  As for men and women to make sa'angreal, it makes sense, but cannot be coroborated.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Questions, Comments, Thoughts?<br /><br />Geoff<br /><br />Artificial Intelligence <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/r2d2.gif" border="0" /> <br />is no match for<br />Natural Stupidity <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-06-30 10:27:11
subject: <b>ToT was right...</b>
body:
Men can't link, they can only join into a circle of women.<br /><br />I like the theory by the way, the basic ideas made sense.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Talyn Sedai<br />Accepted Terrian Dy'ner, Novice Calia Selle, and Novice Jocelyn Selle at www.wheeloftimerp.com<br /><br />Sa souvraya niende misain ye.</font><p></p>


created: 2004-06-30 10:56:42
subject: <b>Lost Art of Angreal</b>
body:
My theory is that the making of angreal was lost because it requires men, even to make regular angreal.  If it wasn't something to do with men, why is the technique for making new ones lost?  I don't believe every woman who knew how to make angreal just died.<br /><br />I do wonder why the Forsaken haven't made any for themselves.  If none of them have the Talent needed, surely there must have been some Black Ajah who have had it.  Can the Forsaken distrust each other _that_ badly, that they can't cooperate enough to make two or three angreal?


created: 2004-06-30 17:28:31
subject: <b>I like the idea</b>
body:
This theory seems really well-thought out. I'd never given much thought to how angreal are made, just to whether or not Elayne would make one before the series is done. Should be interesting to see if this theory proves true should anyone attempt to create one.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> Female Metalhead <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />&quot;Can you hear the violins playing your song?&quot;<br /><br />R.I.P. Dimebag Darrell 1966-2004</font><p></p>


created: 2004-07-01 01:54:51
subject: <b>Maybe....</b>
body:
I'm thinking that males make female tuned angeals, and females make male tuned angreals, thus...after the breaking no female would be crazy enough to make angreals since they would only work for men, and wouldn't trust any male to channel even if it was to make angreal.<br /><br />the strength of the angreal depended on the strength of the one who makes it. <br /><br />I also think that sa'angreal are made by linking, but like angreal, whether a male of female was in control of the link determined which sex the sa'angreal was tuned to.<br /><br />Ter'angreal are different due to the fact that they use the power instead of increasing the amount of power one could use. So females can make ter' angreal that females could use, and vice-versa.


created: 2004-07-01 15:37:55
subject: <b>Differences between types</b>
body:
I have always thought that there is a fundamental difference between ter'angreal and sa/angreal.  Ter'angreal use the power to do something and anyone who knows how to and has the ability to, can imbue an object with that power.<br />Angreal and sa'angreal are different in that they do not use the power, but rather amplify the power, or rather ones connection to the power.  If the one power is a lake, then using one of these is like sucking through a larger straw or possibly two straws at once.  It is my belief that these are made through sacrifice.  What I mean is that in order to make an angreal, a channeler sacrifices their ability to channel and transfers is to an object.  <br />It explains several things.  For one, if it were simple to make angreal in linked groups, then why didn't linked groups pump out lots of angreal.  This need for sacrifice would put an effective cap on the number of angreal possible, and not everyone that is capable of making an angreal would be willing to make that sacrifice.  I think that a person who does this would be able to continue channeling through the angreal they made, but not if they lost it.  Or maybe they only did this when they were near death.  <br />This would also help explain why using an angreal is similar to linking in a circle, and why some of them seem to be individual to people (they were individual people).  Both of these characteristics of angreal are highlighted right before the bowl of the Winds was used.


created: 2004-07-01 20:29:19
subject: <b>i disagree...</b>
body:
only because you are pulling almost all of this from thin air. with just a little more info stated in the books, this would be very convincing and i think its likely but until Elayne starts working on objects of the power again (if we even read of her doing it, it may not fit into the next two books, i mean last two). it maybe that angreal increase strength by a certain percentage, but can only do so to a certain point and sa'angreal are the same way.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br />Red Sox Fan &amp; Yankee Hater<br />kim: it's too cold there to smell<br /><b>Warder to the wonderful, amusing and ever so smart Elayne_Sedai</b><br />Friends don't let friends read Goodkind<br />My mind isn't always in the gutter, it just has VIP access</font><p><a href="http://tinyurl.com/45t6t" target="_blank">Simply Splendid </a></p><p></p>


created: 2004-07-02 02:22:28
subject: <b>I agree</b>
body:
i agree ... this is just the same i think for the creation of the angreals ...... <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />


created: 2004-07-02 05:43:01
subject: <b>hmm</b>
body:
but how did they create the choedan chal and callandor then? If angreal is supposed to reflect how strong their makers were.. not even all channelers in the world are as strong as the choedan chal. I dont think angreals powers has anything to do with the channelers strenght, but skill. Masters of their craft could probably make much stronger angreal.


created: 2004-07-03 15:27:28
subject: <b>ideas</b>
body:
I agree with the theory and with some of the ideas banded about this blackboard.But... I have some ideas that might help settle some questions. <br /><br />I think that making angreal required a circle of at least 40 or so channelers, enough to require several men at the least. The strength of the angreal probably was determined by which sex was in control, the strength of the channelers, the total amount of channelers( the closer to 72, the stronger ), Also the actual number of men in the link.  <br /><br />I think that men make stronger angreal's for women, and vise versa. Just as nynaeve healed logain, susan and leane. <br /><br />The learning was probably lost, simply because it required men, and they were going nuts, it was impossible to trust them.<br /><br />Sa'angreal, required a minimum of at least 70 or so. The strength of the channelers, the number of men, and the closer the balance all affect the strength of the sa'angreal.<br /><br />Choden Kal, was probably made by an extremely close balance, by men and women who were the strongest around, and by the most skillful man/woman leading. <br /><br />The reason it is so incredibly strong, is probably because they did something in the making that they had never done before. Used angreal, and Sa'angreal in the making of them.<br />Remember the fear all of those remaining from the AOL, have about the choden kal.<br />Lews Therin's comments fit the easiest. <br />&quot;they were never tried, never tested&quot;.<br /><br />This explains why the amount of power is so strong.<br /><br />One comment that i read in the posts, was that elayne commented on being able to channel twice as much. That's wrong, she commented on being able to draw twice as much as nynaeve, and that nynaeve would do even better. <br />Makes much more sense when you actually use the correct quotes.<br /><br />


created: 2004-07-06 19:41:37
subject: <b>a thought</b>
body:
i think you need both men and women for sa angreal atleast.<br />calandor was created with men and women.<br /><br />I like the idea that sadin is needed to make a female tuned object tho.  No proof that a woman can make them without a man.  but there is proof that men and women worked on calandor.  just throwing that out there.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Mjolner <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bobbafett.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br />Somewhere, something incredible <br />is waiting to be known. <br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-07-07 00:33:04
subject: <b>Original</b>
body:
I would just line to point out that. Elayne did create an original Ter'angreal. Remember, she made one that would let people without enough strength become invisible. She had even more trouble with them then the copies.


created: 2004-07-10 01:30:03
subject: <b>Very good idea</b>
body:
Your theory goes around the principle that you cannot give what you do not have.  Hence the maker of the Ter'angreal must know the making of the weave..... Even the creation of angreal and Sa'angreal.  I just wonder how the weaves are made. Hmmm.


created: 2004-07-13 17:17:38
subject: <b>A few comments</b>
body:
I like the theory I've had some similar thoughts too. However when you said: <i>I&#8217;m sure she&#8217;ll run into problems building a completely new ter&#8217;angreal too, but that&#8217;s part of the learning process. You don&#8217;t go from copying a masterpiece to making your own in one step.</i> I thought that she did make one from scratch while in Salidar. I think it was something to do with invisibility. I do think she was unhappy witht he results though.<br /><br />To Zan Lynx<br />I think that the forsaken should distrust each other that much. Why link and make angreal-if they could make one- if you're not sure you'll get one. The person in charge of the link may only make one for themselves and then disolve the link. Or they might make 2 and team up to take out the others. A single forsaken might be over powered by the others but 2 with angreals would stand a better chance.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-07-29 06:07:45
subject: <b>Angreal are 'keyed'</b>
body:
The World of Robert Jordan's WOT book clearly states<br />&quot;Both angreal and sa'angreal were keyed during their making for use by either men or women&quot;<br /><br />this seems to indicate that the choice as to whether it is a male or female *angreal is made in the middle of the process, not before it starts, therefore it cannot be related to the composition of the circle, and is highly unlikely to be related to the sex of the person leading the circle.<br /><br />Also on the related note of what sex guides a circle, it doesn't appear to be a choice<br />&quot;... but in the case of the circle of seventy-two, a circle of only one man and one woman, or in most circes of up to thirteen which contain more than one man, a man must lead.  Excepting the examples given above and other circles of thirteen or less, a woman must lead where the minimum number of men are present&quot;.<br />Despite being a terribly written paragraph that seems to contridict itself (the bit before says that either sex can control the link), it seems to suggest that control of a circle is restricted by the composition of the circle in most cases.


created: 2004-08-13 12:56:27
subject: <b>BWB thought</b>
body:
I remember something from the BWB I borrowed about how the angreal where keyed like the guy above said.  Possibly the choden Kal where made with multiple circles using varing different angreal and sa'angreal to make such massive sa'angreals.<br /><br />Also as a extra thought offered sans proof, I think that the way angreals and sa'angreals are made is different and that they operate differently.  My thinking is that if they have different names why is there a distinction when both angreals and sa'angreals can vary in the amount of power they boost.  Why not call everything an angreal if there are power variations.  It might be symantics and I don't remember what sa means to the angreal, but they could be different if not where is the line between sa and regular, 2x, 3x, 10x?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Deserves got nothing to do with it. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bobbafett.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-12-08 16:53:55
subject: <b>the talent</b>
body:
one the subject of why don't the forsaken make their own angreal. in the whole salidar camp elayne is the only one in the ENTIRE CAMP with sufficient skill to make BAD/FAULTY angreals. when bearing in mind that there are 300+ aes sedai in the salidar camp and that there are only 13 forsaken, suddenly the chances of any of them having the ability seems very slim. so the answer to why don't the forsaken make angreals? is simply that none of them have the talent.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> let the speedbart ride again upon the winds of time <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Made the second post on the new WoTMB2 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-06-29 12:57:37
subject: <b>Anaiya making cuendillar?</b>
body:
&quot;No wonder Anaiya and Kairen were killed. They were the ones up to the task of turning the gate chains of North Harbor to cuendillar.&quot;<br /><br />In COT 17, the information goes like this :<br /><br />Egwene herself is by far the best and fastest at making cuendillar.  Then it's Leane, Kairen and finally Bodewhin Cauthon.  Anaiya is never mentionned as showing talent to make Cuendillar that I recall.<br /><br />Egwene reflects that Leane is barely up to the task and that Kairen is still too slow.<br /><br />If the murders were meant to stop Egwene's plan, it's most definitely Leane who would have been the first target of Halima.<br /><br />I still believe the murders were rather clearly an attempt at making Egwene believe a male channeler is trying to stop her war plans and that a male channeler is trying to weaken her position by removing someone from her secret &quot;council&quot;.  Halima did not target Leane, so it sounds unlikely she wanted or at least really cared to stop Egwene from making the cuendillar chains.  Actually, they might help the Seanchan conquer the Tower faster by depriving sisters from a mean of escape.<br /><br />Halima means to frighten the Hall and slow down their discussions about the Black Tower. <i>This</i> is the unforeseen disaster Halima is trying to avoid.  The Shadow did its best to keep Asha'man and Aes Sedai enemies.  The arrival of even a few Asha'man would not only force Halima to flee the place or stop channeling altogether before her job is finished, but it would also turn into a disaster if the Seanchan attack begins and Aes Sedai suddenly forget all their prejudices, fast track the negotiations and create huge circles to fight off the Seanchan and reunite the Tower.  Remember Rebels and Asha'man can both easily Travel.<br /><br />The full squad of Chosen minus three could not even stop Rand at Shaidar Logoth with the rather small defenses set up by Cadsuane.  Some of the Chosen (Graendal, I think) have earlier expressed their fear to become the targets of huge circles of Aes Sedai linked with men.<br /><br />Halima knows very well that there are sisters with the Talent to read residues. Jordan quite insisted on this Talent in CoT, actually.  Yet Halima channels at Egwene without being caught - possibly inverting her weaves for safety.  In any case, it seems rather clear to me that Halima counted on the residues of her murders being read&#173; and the bodies being found.  When Halima wanted people to disappear without leaving a trace and a clue, she was quite capable of doing so.<br /><br />I don't believe the Shadow in the Tower is involved whatsoever with the capture of Egwene.  Alviarin is up to her neck with the high priority task Shaidar Haran assigned to her (let me correct that to &quot;The Dark One Himself&quot;, as far as she believes) and I don't think she would involve herself or her troops into any other new plot before she can be 100% sure it won't backfire on her and/or involve BA who have been unmasked already.  <br /><br />If the Shadow is involved, I think it's indirectly - as a mean to spread chaos into the ranks of the Rebels - maybe to worsen the situation regarding the Tower or changing priorities in the Hall.  <br /><br />I believe it's the Sitters handling the negotiations who have by far the best motives for slowing Egwene's military actions - with or without manipulations from the Shadow. And we saw Delana plotting about negotiations.<br /><br />I believe their scheme to stop and discredit Egwene's actions has blown up in their face because it's not Bhode who was caught red-handed but Egwene herself who got captured. And the Tower faction has got &quot;more than it bargained for&quot; as Egwene's captors said.  Much more...  They hold the advantage now.<br /><br />I think from the Tower's Sitters POV it could have been a scheme to induce their Hall to make a settlement with the Rebels - and possibly to unchair Elaida in the process because I believe the negotiators from both sides (and the &quot;real&quot; Ajah Heads from all but the Blue and Red) have come to the conclusion the only way to reunite the Tower without weakening it further is to get rid of both Amyrlins and name a new one.  It might have been their hopes all along by naming Young Sitters who could be discarded when the time comes.  If the young Myrelle is representative of the others, the &quot;new&quot; Ajah Heads from Salidar are also way too young and possibly not aware they are also pawns of the &quot;old&quot; Sitters.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="images/personalsmilies/30778.gif" />Wheel of Time Reference Library : Articles, maps, charts and misc.<img src="images/personalsmilies/30778.gif" /><br /><br /></font><p><a href="http://13depository.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">The Thirteenth Depository - a Wheel of Time Blog</a></p><p></p>


created: 2004-06-29 13:01:10
subject: <b>I agree someone in the Hall betrayed the plan</b>
body:
But not Delana.<br /><br />Some of your facts are wrong. Delana does not have one of her BA Heart members as a Sitter. From Alviarin`s POV, we know none of the Sitters in the Hall are BA. Galina had been, but she is now at the tender mercies of Sevanna and Thereva.<br /><br />Sheriam`s behavior is consistant with her previous behavior, since she was beaten by someone for not telling what Egwene was up to. I believe this &quot;someone&quot; is Lelaine.<br />In CoT, Lelaine all but said to Egwene that she would be unseated.<br /><br />For the same reason, I don`t believe Halima had anything to do with the betrayal. Halima was just as frustrated as Sheriam about not knowing Egwene`s plans.<br /><br />BTW, Anaiya was not one skilled in the making of cuendillar but she did believe Egwene was a Dreamer, which no other sister did. That could be the reason she was killed.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2004-06-29 17:34:00
subject: <b>Hmmm...</b>
body:
You must have meant &quot;Ajah Heads&quot; jofraz.  Of them only Galina is Black, confirmed by Alviarin herself.<br /><br />We know at least one Sitter in the Tower is Black, though poor Talene is *cough*... not available for scheming at the moment.<br /><br />Many believe Alviarin must have an ally high up in the White Ajah to help her do what she wants (before becoming Keeper, that is).  Since it isn't the Ajah Head it's quite possibly she was under the wing of a White/Black Sitter.<br /><br />However, this is a bit of a moot point because Delana is one of the &quot;too young&quot; Sitters.  She wasn't a Sitter in the Tower like the theory states.  She isn't likely to have any special contact there outside the Greys.  Sitters don't mix a lot outside their own Ajah, even less than other sisters.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="images/personalsmilies/30778.gif" />Wheel of Time Reference Library : Articles, maps, charts and misc.<img src="images/personalsmilies/30778.gif" /><br /><br /></font><p><a href="http://13depository.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">The Thirteenth Depository - a Wheel of Time Blog</a></p><p></p>


created: 2004-06-29 18:03:43
subject: <b>The Shadow wants the Tower fractured.</b>
body:
The best way to keep the two factions at loggerheads is to keep both Amyrlins in place.  Without Egwene as their figurehead, the rebels are in a weaker position.  Many will start thinking about returning to Tar Valon, especially since it's right across the river.  The best the Shadow can hope for is a pitched battle in Tar Valon with sisters killing sisters.  Again, I think it's considerably less likely with Egwene inside the Tower.<br /><br />The interesting thing about the negotiations is the difference between Elaida's demands and Egwene's demands.  Elaida wants a whole list of stuff: rebel sisters demoted and they have to ask Elaida's personal permission before being re-admitted to their Ajah; Sheriam, Lelaine, Romanda birched (and stilled? I can't remember); a couple of other things, too, IIRC.  Egwene's only demand is that Elaida be forced to step down.  That's it.  I think RJ is setting it up so that the Tower Hall decides to remove Elaida, and that ends the schism between the Aes Sedai, and everyone gets together just in time to turn back the Seanchan horde.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Diomedes <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-06-29 18:42:02
subject: <b>Well...</b>
body:
I don't see any reason why this theory points to Delana more than it points to Halima, since everything Delana knew or could do, Halama would know and be able to do better.<br /><br />Also there is no evidence to show that Egwene was captured by the Black Ajah, in fact the opposite is true. So while the BA might be behind it and have motives for it, it wasn't necessarily them.


created: 2004-06-29 19:50:42
subject: <b>Oops,</b>
body:
Thanks, DomA. Of course Ajah Head.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2004-07-01 14:06:06
subject: <b>Impossible...</b>
body:
Sheriam must have been herself. As we all know Halima is a channeler of Saidin, and AS can feel the ability to channel in persons of any gender. Although it is certainly possible to mask this ability, I haven&#171;t heard of a way to create an aura that fakes the ability to channel Saidar.<br />Anything else: Why not?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Am I evil? Yes I am!!!</font><p></p>


created: 2004-07-01 17:40:08
subject: <b>I'm not sure if she was betrayed at all</b>
body:
Egwene says she was betrayed , but I don't know on what assumption she made that statement.<br /><br />One thing which always bugged me about this &quot;betrayal&quot; was that the Aes Sedai who caught her were stunned at who they had caught. Surely that would've been expecting her if she was betrayed.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">A One Power researcher<br />Defender of Lanfear<br />Grand Ninja-Nae'blis to be feared <br />Original Warder to Isa <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br />New Warder to Nossie <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />Toy to Seriana <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/winky.gif" border="0" /><br />Mystified by a Fan <br />Bonded Phelix - I was young, it happened so fast.</font><p></p>


created: 2004-07-05 01:31:23
subject: <b>Betrayel.....</b>
body:
First off, Egwene wasn't betrayed the operation was.  The sisters that caught her were more surprised at catching Egwene than they should have, had they known Egwene would be the one they caught that night.  The two people that come up first (the betrayer's) would be Delana andor Halima.  Halima has a better chance to get a message to someone in the tower because Delana wasn't strong enough to weave a gateway. So, Halima it had to be.  Sure we could haggle over the details but RJ never gives us the full picture until later.  Sheriam is just a pawn of Lelaine that no one knows about.  Chew on that.


created: 2004-07-14 15:35:07
subject: <b>Nicola</b>
body:
personally I always thought the betrayal was on the part of Nicola.  We all know that she is a conniving little skank.


created: 2004-07-25 20:16:05
subject: <b>In regards to Sheriam actualy being Halima.</b>
body:
Now I know that Aes Sedai take it for granted when there is anothe rwoman who can channel around them, they subconciously size them up all the time.  But, wouldn't either Egwene or Suain notice that Sheriam/Halima could not channel saidar?


created: 2004-10-20 18:22:55
subject: <b>In regards Sheriam/Halima</b>
body:
Wouldn't Eg /Si have wondereed if &quot;Sheriam&quot; showed no sign of being able to channel saidar? That couldn't be faked: It can be diminished, or hidden, but not created artificially.<br /><br />So... IF it indeed was not Sheriam, maybe it was Al, or even Mesaana (whoever was torturing Sher in the first place). And that would explain the whole thing without anyone really betraying anything at all.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">The only way to convince me is by providing some evidence!</font><p></p>


created: 2004-06-29 11:14:32
subject: <b>Interesting theory</b>
body:
It would be interesting if you could bring in one additional quote from an AoL character that I notice you miss.  I remember that in ACoS, prologue Mesaana shares some reflections about this Talent with Alviarin - in regard to Elaida's Foretelling about the two towers, but I don't have the book with me to reread what it was exactly.  <br /><br />If I recall it right she doesn't have an high opinion of Elaida's skills and I'm pretty sure she compares her to Foretellers from the AoL in some fashion.  I *believe* she says that even back then Foretellings were pretty useless in her opinion because what they predicted was rarely understood by anynone before it came to pass, but I wonder if there is not some derogatory comment in there too about Elaida not even knowing how to use this Talent properly. Or something like that.<br /><br />Sorry in advance if I have it wrong, this is all from memory!<br /><br />All in all, I quite agree with you - but I think it's likely from Mesaana's views that even the Aes Sedai from the AoL were not much more skilled at interpreting their Foretellings.  If they could control it more skillfully and bring about more bits of Foretelling on the same subject, it seems likely they could eventually puzzle out their meanings far more accurately, though.<br /><br />That said, I always try to remain skeptical about Mesaana's beliefs.  There must be some important reasons for her being judged unfit to become a researcher. Serious intellectual flaws, closed-mindness or poor skills at drawing creative theories from observations.  Something...<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="images/personalsmilies/30778.gif" />Wheel of Time Reference Library : Articles, maps, charts and misc.<img src="images/personalsmilies/30778.gif" /><br /><br /></font><p><a href="http://13depository.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">The Thirteenth Depository - a Wheel of Time Blog</a></p><p></p>


created: 2004-06-29 11:26:16
subject: <b>Interesting</b>
body:
It might explaion the fortune telling that damane do.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Bob L. Sedai (a.k.a. Luge) <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /><br />Fighting off the Taint - <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tinfoilhat.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" />Thanks given to Burr, the ever-helpful theory critic<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />And to Light in the Night, fellow theorist extraordinaire<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Voted Best Screenname 1 (one) years in a row.</font><p></p>


created: 2004-06-29 11:53:20
subject: <b>interesting</b>
body:
but I have to vote no.  We do not actually see the AOL character when she is fortelling, I believe we see her after she already has.  The effect went something like this I think, she was doing something else had a fortelling, someone around her saw it ran to get the others.  They sat her down at the table and she repeated what she said (though this time in control sense it wasn't the actual fortelling).  The comments of the others could fit with this scenerio as well, even if she didn't have control of it they could still wish she could see further.  Her comment that she can only see what she fortells fits more with this understanding to my mind.


created: 2004-06-29 12:25:30
subject: <b>Agree with Dacole</b>
body:
Also, to bobsledai, I believe Tuon`s damane is not really Foretelling on demand, but has Min`s Talent.<br /><br />If it were, in fact, Foretelling, then it must have been in the past and only told to Tuon, on demand.<br /><br />From what we have witnessed in the books, Elaida and Nicola, their Foretelling comes on them without demand, that is, spontaneously.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2004-06-29 12:25:57
subject: <b>how the white tower became rich...</b>
body:
they gambled.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> If you could choose the world you lived in? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> - servant of <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /> - <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-06-29 15:28:43
subject: <b>I voted no...</b>
body:
I think the main problem with your your theory is that you assume that a talent is necessarily an action performed by the person.  I can't recall her name, but there is a novice, or maybe an accepted, with the rebels who can see ta'veren - my perception was that she didn't actually DO anything - she just sees some sort of aura around them.  I think foretelling works the same way - its not a physical skill, just something attached to some people's ability to use the one power - there's nothing for the person to actually do - it just takes ahold of them - represented by the seizure-like reactions.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">--If they ever come up with a swashbuckling School, I think one of the courses should be Laughing, Then Jumping Off Something--</font><p></p>


created: 2004-06-29 16:53:05
subject: <b>No</b>
body:
The Foretelling from AoL doesn't suggest the degree of control. All that we see was AFTER the Foretelling occured. They simply discussing what was Foretold, not how.<br /><br />It's the major assumption that you made and it invalidates your theory.


created: 2004-06-29 18:44:51
subject: <b>but Mesaana said...</b>
body:
I don't remember where it was but Mesaana mentioned that the Foretelling was always quite random and almost impossible to decipher. I would expect if anyone, she would know.


created: 2004-06-29 21:58:53
subject: <b>To jofraz</b>
body:
But remember that Tuon knows that ALL damane call tell your fortune. It's not a Min type talent limited to only a bare handful. All damane are trained to do fortune telling.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Bob L. Sedai (a.k.a. Luge) <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /><br />Fighting off the Taint - <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tinfoilhat.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" />Thanks given to Burr, the ever-helpful theory critic<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />And to Light in the Night, fellow theorist extraordinaire<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Voted Best Screenname 1 (one) years in a row.</font><p></p>


created: 2004-06-29 23:53:50
subject: <b>hmmm can't agree fully with you</b>
body:
I think that the AOL Aes Sedai were perhaps trained better in understanding what they foretell, and that there were more of them doing it.  But I don't think it's something you can learn to do on command.  It's a talent a few have, but perhaps those that were found to have it were taught better in how to understand them and increase their efficacy.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-06-30 17:06:57
subject: <b>Tuons Damane</b>
body:
I agree with Bobsled.<br />Tuons damane can fortell the future. This is some kind of training the Seanchan haven't lost. I do not recall tuon saying all Damane can Fortell only some. This would seem to fit that it is a rare Talent not common anywere.<br /> The Seanchan Damane have to learn how to control fortelling in a way though I don't think they can control it all the time when it is about something that will affect alot of people and not just an individual.<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Egwene Fan  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/egwene.gif" border="0" /><br />Elaida will fall!!! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /> <br />Egwene is meant to rule the White Tower and even Rand will know her fury!! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-07-01 08:29:21
subject: <b>Voted no</b>
body:
&quot;What good is your Foretelling ... if you cannot tell us when?&quot; ... Dark eyed Deindre faced her with a more usual calm. &quot;I am not the Creator. I can only tell you what I Foretell.&quot; .... &quot;Besides , the Dashain yet have a part yet to play , if Deindre could only see far enough to say what.&quot;<br /><br />All this quote shows is that Deindre couldn't tell when her &quot;foretelling&quot; would occur and that Dashain (Aiel) would be be involved with the Dragon Reborn, whenever he was reborn.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Founding member of the ASI</b><br /><br /><b>TP ADMIN</b><br /><br /><b>Simon</b><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-07-02 02:21:29
subject: <b>fortelling ......</b>
body:
may be the fortelling needs training to ... remember what have you said .... but not to ... what have you seen ... because ... nicola do not remember what she has fortelled ... but Elaida ... does ... so ... with the dreaming is the same ... egw. dreamed but doesn't remember all her dreams before her raining !!! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> Sorry for the wrong words <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" />


created: 2004-07-04 15:56:21
subject: <b>damane</b>
body:
It's been a while since I read, and I don't remember anything about the damane fortune telling, but maybe it's more of a trick. Kind of like regular psychics with crystal balls.


created: 2004-07-05 04:52:13
subject: <b>To Bobsledai -</b>
body:
Can the damane really foretell the future? I seem to remember that Tuon believed in a lot of omens, and to me this suggests that the damane 'foretell' by reading these omens. Nothing doing with the OP. Just Seanchan superstition?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Granting you and I argue<br />If you get the better of me<br />Are you right and I wrong?<br />If I get the better of you<br />Am I right and you wrong?<br />Or are we both right?<br />Or are we both wrong?<br />Since you and I cannot know<br />We all live in darkness</font><p></p>


