# w_comment

created: 2005-05-23 20:38:34
subject: <b>I should have clarified....</b>
body:
I didn't mean that Ishy = Taim. And what you say is true about the timing of events. <br /><br />That Liandrin knows about a plot involving Taim is indicative, I think. (I just find it very hard to believe she came up with the idea herself. She also later talks about her and the other 10 with her, using the male a'dam that they were sent to find. So she has a penchant for using other people's ideas, and a track record for taking them from Forsaken, too, IMO.)<br /><br />*Side note* ~ One thing that does stand out is that it is almost a sure thing that Mesaana was the one that carried through with the plan to free Taim after his capture. (She was most likely the one intercepting Moiraine's messages to Siuan and holding onto them for awhile, or not allowing them to get delivered at all.)<br /><br />Although Bashere does say he has been tracking Taim for some time, it doesn't really say if he had seen him for awhile, either. Another oddball thing to throw in there is that Bashere doesn't recognize Taim in Caemlyn, (sans the beard.) By this time, Taim may have been drained of his knowledge as was done to Cabriana, and replaced by Moridin, and his disguise was less than perfect. Ishy/Moridin/Taim would have had the knowledge of what Taim did to those nobles to prove he was who he claimed to be.<br /><br />P.S. ~ (Not arguing that Ishy was Taim here), but Ishy appears very likely to be a true Dreamwalker. If he is, then even shielded he would still be able to reach TAR. (Which is what we are expecting Egwene to do once they start shielding her instead of using forkroot.)   <br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-24 12:04:29
subject: <b>To LitN ...</b>
body:
<b>That Liandrin knows about a plot involving Taim is indicative, I think. (I just find it very hard to believe she came up with the idea herself. She also later talks about her and the other 10 with her, using the male a'dam that they were sent to find. So she has a penchant for using other people's ideas, and a track record for taking them from Forsaken, too, IMO.)</b><br /><br />I agree.  I suspect she received orders from one Forsaken or another regarding all of the plots she was involved in.  After which, given her delusions of grandeur, she tried to devise ways to use those orders to her own advantage, and in effect challenge the Forsaken herself (as evident by her confrontation with Moggy).<br /><br /><b>*Side note* ~ One thing that does stand out is that it is almost a sure thing that Mesaana was the one that carried through with the plan to free Taim after his capture. (She was most likely the one intercepting Moiraine's messages to Siuan and holding onto them for awhile, or not allowing them to get delivered at all.)</b><br /><br />It's unclear whether Ishy died before or after Taim was actually freed, but even if it was before, it's possible the plan was executed without another Forsaken's assistance.  But, if any of the Forsaken did take over the plan after Ishy died, I agree that it was most likely Mesaana.<br /><br />Continuing on with this line of thought (and assuming Taim is just Taim), I believe that Demandred took &quot;control&quot; of Taim after he was freed, and devised the plan to have him accept Rand's amnesty.  I also believe Demandred devised the plan to have the Tower AS capture Rand (as had already been put in place by Mesaana), and then have Taim and the Asha'man rescue Rand.  I believe he devised this plan in response to the commands he received from the Dark One in the LoC prologue (in addition to &quot;Let the Lord of Chaos Rule&quot; ) which were, presumably, to drive a wedge between Rand and his potential allies (Aes Sedai, rulers of various nations, etc), and in general create as much chaos in the world as possible, the cause of which would be attributed to Rand.  <br /><br />Note:  When Demandred revealed the Dark One's orders to Mesaana, Semirhage, and Graendal in their meeting in the LoC prologue, I think he also discussed Mesaana's plan to capture Rand, and how it fit in with the DO's orders.  But, I don't think he told them about his plan to have Taim et.al. rescue Rand after the capture (he may not have even worked that part out yet, but given that it had been 17 days since his meeting with the DO, I suspect he had).  Because, in the ACoS prologue, Mesaana tells Alviarin that Elaida should not be disposed of until after Rand was in their hands (it seems this meeting took place on the same day Rand was rescued, so Mesaana was unaware of it).  So, it seems she expected that Rand would be brought to Tar Valon successfully, and therefore was unaware of Demandred's plan to have Rand rescued.<br /><br />I suppose it's possible Mesaana knew of the plan to rescue Rand, and was just lying to Alviarin.  But, that seems counter-productive.  Why would she want Alviarin acting (on Mesaana's behalf) on false information?  It doesn't make sense.  Therefore, I think it more likely that Mesaana did not know of the rescue plan.<br /><br /><b>*Although Bashere does say he has been tracking Taim for some time, it doesn't really say if he had seen him for awhile, either. Another oddball thing to throw in there is that Bashere doesn't recognize Taim in Caemlyn, (sans the beard.) By this time, Taim may have been drained of his knowledge as was done to Cabriana, and replaced by Moridin, and his disguise was less than perfect. Ishy/Moridin/Taim would have had the knowledge of what Taim did to those nobles to prove he was who he claimed to be.</b><br /><br />Yep, I was thinking this as well, when considering Moridin=Taim.  Perhaps it's impossible to duplicate someone else's appearance with a MoM exactly &#8211; there would always be some minor flaws.  So, instead of hoping no one notices the minor flaws, Moridin creates a big flaw (no beard), with a reasonable explanation for it, thinking that those who know Taim (like Bashere) would focus on the lack of beard rather than looking for minor flaws, thereby making the disguise more effective.  Very clever, actually, if it turns out Moridin is Taim.<br /><br /><b>P.S. ~ (Not arguing that Ishy was Taim here), but Ishy appears very likely to be a true Dreamwalker. If he is, then even shielded he would still be able to reach TAR. (Which is what we are expecting Egwene to do once they start shielding her instead of using forkroot.)</b><br /><br />Good point.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Rise and fall, turn the Wheel,<br />'cause all life is<br />Is really just a circle.&quot;<br /><br />-BHT&amp;tM</font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-24 13:34:05
subject: <b>Another plot to consider as well....</b>
body:
<b>It's unclear whether Ishy died before or after Taim was actually freed, but even if it was before, it's possible the plan was executed without another Forsaken's assistance. But, if any of the Forsaken did take over the plan after Ishy died, I agree that it was most likely Mesaana.</b><br /><br />This is true. Although on the surface it appears Ishy was dead prior to Taim being freed, it's not necessarily the case. TFoH prologue takes a step backwards in time from the conclusion of TDR. It's a close thing to guess at though, about how long Mesaana could hold back important news. Word was already arriving upriver about Rand taking the Stone, since this is a big event, and Taim's escape would have also been spreading rather quickly. Neither piece of information would have remained secret for too long, and so the messages had to be sent to Siuan sooner, rather than being held onto until a later date.<br /><br /><b>Continuing on with this line of thought (and assuming Taim is just Taim), I believe that Demandred took &quot;control&quot; of Taim after he was freed, and devised the plan to have him accept Rand's amnesty. I also believe Demandred devised the plan to have the Tower AS capture Rand (as had already been put in place by Mesaana), and then have Taim and the Asha'man rescue Rand. I believe he devised this plan in response to the commands he received from the Dark One in the LoC prologue (in addition to &quot;Let the Lord of Chaos Rule&quot; ) which were, presumably, to drive a wedge between Rand and his potential allies (Aes Sedai, rulers of various nations, etc), and in general create as much chaos in the world as possible, the cause of which would be attributed to Rand.</b><br /><br /><b>Note: When Demandred revealed the Dark One's orders to Mesaana, Semirhage, and Graendal in their meeting in the LoC prologue, I think he also discussed Mesaana's plan to capture Rand, and how it fit in with the DO's orders.</b><br /><br />Something that goes against this idea is that Graendal was at this meeting in the prologue where Mesaana says: &quot;With luck, al'Thor will be where I can safely reach him in two months, maybe three.&quot; Graendal didn't know until later that Mesaana was in the Tower.   <br /><br /><b>But, I don't think he told them about his plan to have Taim et.al. rescue Rand after the capture (he may not have even worked that part out yet, but given that it had been 17 days since his meeting with the DO, I suspect he had). Because, in the ACoS prologue, Mesaana tells Alviarin that Elaida should not be disposed of until after Rand was in their hands (it seems this meeting took place on the same day Rand was rescued, so Mesaana was unaware of it). So, it seems she expected that Rand would be brought to Tar Valon successfully, and therefore was unaware of Demandred's plan to have Rand rescued.</b><br /><br />I think you are completely forgetting the real reason Rand had to be rescued. You should remember that Demmy, Semmy and Mesaana have an alliance, and bringing Rand to the WT would have been a coup for the team. However, Sammael was messing with their plans by bringing Sevanna and the Shaido into the mix.<br /><br />How well connected was Sammael and his info? Towards the end of tFoH, the letters from Alviarin and Elaida come to Rand in Cairhien, that an escort is on its way to fetch him to the WT. In the prologue of LoC, we see that Sevanna has already received her callbox from &quot;Caddar&quot; before she meets with the WT escort. So from all appearances, Sammael knew what was going on and was already making counter-plans to kidnap Rand by proxy.<br /><br />Truth is, the Aes Sedai escorting Rand to the Tower were being overpowered by the Shaido at Dumai Wells. If Taim and the asha'man hadn't showed up when they did, Rand would have been prisoner to Sevanna with Sammael pulling the strings. Demandred did what was expedient in this case, freeing Rand from either side of the Forsaken conflict, thus keeping Rand away from Sammael's control, while still maintaining an edge with an &quot;insider&quot; in Taim to keep an eye on him. (The Moridin=Taim theory still works here, since Demandred wouldn't know his real identity.)<br /><br />I suppose it's possible Mesaana knew of the plan to rescue Rand, and was just lying to Alviarin. But, that seems counter-productive. Why would she want Alviarin acting (on Mesaana's behalf) on false information? It doesn't make sense. Therefore, I think it more likely that Mesaana did not know of the rescue plan.<br /><br />In this instance, Mesaana was powerless to act without giving herself away by using gateways to transport BA to the battle to help. Her, Semmy and Demmy certainly wouldn't have put themselves in the middle of that fray, with all those channelers present, and accidently be caught in the crossfire. Taim, while present, isn't in the heat of the battle, and was ready to gate out of there once he reached Rand, which is exactly what he wanted to do.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-24 16:35:50
subject: <b>Some more thoughts ...</b>
body:
<b>Something that goes against this idea is that Graendal was at this meeting in the prologue where Mesaana says: &quot;With luck, al'Thor will be where I can safely reach him in two months, maybe three.&quot; Graendal didn't know until later that Mesaana was in the Tower. </b><br /><br />Yes, you are correct.  After the LoC prologue, the next Graendal scene (with Sammael, in Arad Doman) occurs in ch.6.  In that scene, we learn that Graendal has met with Demmy, Mesaana, and Semmy a number of times after the prologue scene (and, it was from one of those meetings that Graendal figured out Mesaana was in the Tower).  We also learn that Graendal doesn't know anything about what the other 3 are planning together.  Given that, I must revise what I said previously (which is clearly wrong), and suggest rather that Demmy, Mesaana, and perhaps Semmy discussed the plan to capture Rand amongst themselves, after the meeting in the LoC prologue.  That seems to agree with what you are suggesting below.<br /> <br /><b>I think you are completely forgetting the real reason Rand had to be rescued. You should remember that Demmy, Semmy and Mesaana have an alliance, and bringing Rand to the WT would have been a coup for the team. However, Sammael was messing with their plans by bringing Sevanna and the Shaido into the mix.<br /><br />How well connected was Sammael and his info? Towards the end of tFoH, the letters from Alviarin and Elaida come to Rand in Cairhien, that an escort is on its way to fetch him to the WT. In the prologue of LoC, we see that Sevanna has already received her callbox from &quot;Caddar&quot; before she meets with the WT escort. So from all appearances, Sammael knew what was going on and was already making counter-plans to kidnap Rand by proxy.<br /><br />Truth is, the Aes Sedai escorting Rand to the Tower were being overpowered by the Shaido at Dumai Wells. If Taim and the asha'man hadn't showed up when they did, Rand would have been prisoner to Sevanna with Sammael pulling the strings. Demandred did what was expedient in this case, freeing Rand from either side of the Forsaken conflict, thus keeping Rand away from Sammael's control, while still maintaining an edge with an &quot;insider&quot; in Taim to keep an eye on him. (The Moridin=Taim theory still works here, since Demandred wouldn't know his real identity.)</b><br /><br />These are all excellent points (and you're right &#8211; not something I was giving much thought to).  One reason I was thinking that Demandred planned all along to rescue Rand is because of his comments to the Great Lord at the end of LoC, when he said: &quot;have I not done well&quot;.  From this comment, I inferred that Demandred had planned everything that had transpired with Rand (i.e. his capture &amp; rescue), and was reporting to the GL how successful his plans had been.  But, I like your reasoning that Sammael's interference forced Demandred to rescue Rand, even though it wasn't his (and Mesaana's) original intention.  I wonder how much Semmy was involved in this plot, though.  She really didn't contribute anything to it at all, as far as I can tell.  Also, the alliance between the 3 was more not to interfere with each other's plans, as opposed to work together toward a common goal (IIRC).<br /><br />I need to think this whole plot through some more.  I have not given it nearly as much attention as the one I wrote about in this theory.  A couple of questions come immediately to mind, though:  <br /><br />1) Why did Mesaana enlist the aid of Sevanna &amp; the Shaido (through Galina &amp; Katherine, in the LoC prologue scene you mentioned above) in the first place?  Was it really just to help escort Rand to Tar Valon?  Or, was there a more subtle reason?  It was clear from that scene that both Galina &amp; Katherine &quot;knew&quot; Sevanna would try to kill Rand if given the chance.  So, the Shaido's actions at Dumai's Wells could not have been totally unforeseen, I think, even though Sammael did have a hand in arranging it.  <br /><br />Also, was Demmy involved in enlisting the Shaido's aid?   At first glance, it appears not, because he did not reveal the GL's commands to Mesaana, Semmy, and Graendal until after that scene.  However, perhaps he was working with Mesaana on the &quot;capture Rand&quot; plan before that scene, and therefore was involved.  Actually, this makes some sense, because both Galina &amp; Katherine knew they were to &quot;preserve the Dragon Reborn&quot;, and prevent Sevanna from killing him.  How did they know this, if not from Demandred?  Clearly (from her thoughts), Mesaana did not know Rand was not to be killed until Demandred revealed it later in the prologue.  Hmm, maybe it was Demandred, not Mesaana, who ordered Galina &amp; Katherine to enlist the aid of Sevanna &amp; the Shaido (behind Mesaana's back?) &#8230;<br /><br />2) Would capturing Rand, without the intent to free him soon thereafter, violate the DO's orders to &quot;let the Lord of Chaos rule&quot;?  Rand could not sow much chaos if he was locked away in the Tower.<br /><br />Anyway, I do agree that Moridin=Taim would still work, given how you outlined events above.<br /><br /><b>In this instance, Mesaana was powerless to act without giving herself away by using gateways to transport BA to the battle to help. Her, Semmy and Demmy certainly wouldn't have put themselves in the middle of that fray, with all those channelers present, and accidentally be caught in the crossfire. Taim, while present, isn't in the heat of the battle, and was ready to gate out of there once he reached Rand, which is exactly what he wanted to do.</b><br /><br />Yes, this is all true.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Rise and fall, turn the Wheel,<br />'cause all life is<br />Is really just a circle.&quot;<br /><br />-BHT&amp;tM</font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-25 04:07:22
subject: <b>A little more</b>
body:
<b>These are all excellent points (and you're right &#8211; not something I was giving much thought to). One reason I was thinking that Demandred planned all along to rescue Rand is because of his comments to the Great Lord at the end of LoC, when he said: &quot;have I not done well&quot;. From this comment, I inferred that Demandred had planned everything that had transpired with Rand (i.e. his capture &amp; rescue), and was reporting to the GL how successful his plans had been. But, I like your reasoning that Sammael's interference forced Demandred to rescue Rand, even though it wasn't his (and Mesaana's) original intention. I wonder how much Semmy was involved in this plot, though. She really didn't contribute anything to it at all, as far as I can tell. Also, the alliance between the 3 was more not to interfere with each other's plans, as opposed to work together toward a common goal (IIRC).</b><br /><br />I can't really see any involvement by Semmy, myself, I just threw her in there because of the alliance. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br />On the surface it would appear that Mesaana and Demandred are both privy to the plot to kidnap Rand. We know the connection is there for us to associate Mesaana with the kidnapping by her statement I quoted earlier. (And Demandred knows where her lair is when she makes that statement.) <br /><br /><b>I need to think this whole plot through some more. I have not given it nearly as much attention as the one I wrote about in this theory. A couple of questions come immediately to mind, though:</b><br /><br /><b>1) Why did Mesaana enlist the aid of Sevanna &amp; the Shaido (through Galina &amp; Katherine, in the LoC prologue scene you mentioned above) in the first place? Was it really just to help escort Rand to Tar Valon? Or, was there a more subtle reason? It was clear from that scene that both Galina &amp; Katherine &quot;knew&quot; Sevanna would try to kill Rand if given the chance. So, the Shaido's actions at Dumai's Wells could not have been totally unforeseen, I think, even though Sammael did have a hand in arranging it.</b><br /><br /><b>Also, was Demmy involved in enlisting the Shaido's aid? At first glance, it appears not, because he did not reveal the GL's commands to Mesaana, Semmy, and Graendal until after that scene. However, perhaps he was working with Mesaana on the &quot;capture Rand&quot; plan before that scene, and therefore was involved. Actually, this makes some sense, because both Galina &amp; Katherine knew they were to &quot;preserve the Dragon Reborn&quot;, and prevent Sevanna from killing him. How did they know this, if not from Demandred? Clearly (from her thoughts), Mesaana did not know Rand was not to be killed until Demandred revealed it later in the prologue. Hmm, maybe it was Demandred, not Mesaana, who ordered Galina &amp; Katherine to enlist the aid of Sevanna &amp; the Shaido (behind Mesaana's back?)</b><br /><br />Mesaana tells Alviarin in ACoS prologue that she is to obey only her orders if she is to be taught, and she specifically mentions not to follow orders from a few that she names, and one of them is Demandred. So, perhaps they were or weren't working together, and it could be Demmy poked his nose in to keep an eye on her scheme to prevent it from going awry, or to cash in himself. <br /><br />As for enlisting the Shaido, I see this as an escort for the escort. They must have known if it came down to kidnapping Rand that his loyal Aiel and friends would come to rescue him once they discovered he was missing. At this early stage of the book, Rand had vast numbers of Aiel around Cairhien, and had only begun sending them south to Illian. (With that many warriors, they probably could have overrun the Shaido even with their WO channelers, and an escort would be prudent.) As the book progresses, this number dwindles and &quot;news&quot; leaks out that Rand has gone to the WT of his own volition IIRC, causing more bleakness among the Aiel and desertions to the Shaido.<br /><br />2) Would capturing Rand, without the intent to free him soon thereafter, violate the DO's orders to &quot;let the Lord of Chaos rule&quot;? Rand could not sow much chaos if he was locked away in the Tower.<br /><br />This could be where the plot that Joiya tells us about would have come into play. If Rand was safely locked away, turning Taim into a replacement Dragon Reborn would have been a good plan to turn the tide for the Shadow. (More especially if Moridin was actually Taim. The Shadow's champion disguised as the Light's champion causing chaos everywhere.) Joiya most likely can talk about this plot because she thinks it was Liandrin's idea, and she had been with her in Tear. So the plan looks like it was abandoned to her, especially with the remaining BA ordered to go to Tanchico. (How could they ever hope to kidnap Taim if they were in the south while he was way up north somewhere?) She probably didn't know it was a plot dreamed up by Ishy originally, and resurrected by Demmy/Messy, via the DO's instructions most likely, IMO. (If this is the case, then the two were definitely working together. It could also explain Mesaana's pov thoughts: &quot;It could work; it could hand them everything. But it required luck, and gambling made her uncomfortable.&quot; <br /><br />I also think Demandred's boast at the conclusion of LoC is bravado. In the end, much chaos was sown, but not in the way it was originally planned to happen. He simply put the best face on it and took the credit for the results.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-25 15:07:02
subject: <b>Good thoughts ...</b>
body:
<b>Mesaana tells Alviarin in ACoS prologue that she is to obey only her orders if she is to be taught, and she specifically mentions not to follow orders from a few that she names, and one of them is Demandred. So, perhaps they were or weren't working together, and it could be Demmy poked his nose in to keep an eye on her scheme to prevent it from going awry, or to cash in himself.</b><br /><br />Agreed.<br /><br /><b>As for enlisting the Shaido, I see this as an escort for the escort. They must have known if it came down to kidnapping Rand that his loyal Aiel and friends would come to rescue him once they discovered he was missing. At this early stage of the book, Rand had vast numbers of Aiel around Cairhien, and had only begun sending them south to Illian. (With that many warriors, they probably could have overrun the Shaido even with their WO channelers, and an escort would be prudent.) As the book progresses, this number dwindles and &quot;news&quot; leaks out that Rand has gone to the WT of his own volition IIRC, causing more bleakness among the Aiel and desertions to the Shaido.</b><br /><br />The Shaido were also supposed to kill Gawyn and the Younglings (according to Galina's thoughts after the kidnapping - I just stumbled across this today).  Just to sow more chaos, I guess.  Anyway ... I agree with your comments above.<br /><br /><b>This could be where the plot that Joiya tells us about would have come into play. If Rand was safely locked away, turning Taim into a replacement Dragon Reborn would have been a good plan to turn the tide for the Shadow. (More especially if Moridin was actually Taim. The Shadow's champion disguised as the Light's champion causing chaos everywhere.) Joiya most likely can talk about this plot because she thinks it was Liandrin's idea, and she had been with her in Tear. So the plan looks like it was abandoned to her, especially with the remaining BA ordered to go to Tanchico. (How could they ever hope to kidnap Taim if they were in the south while he was way up north somewhere?)</b><br /><br />Joiya's revelation seems a little fishy to me.  I doubt she could reveal an active plot if she just suspected (without knowing for sure) that it had been abandoned.  And, it certainly was still active - Taim was freed very close to when Joiya revealed the plan.<br /><br />The only explanation I can think of is that perhaps the BA wasn't involved in breaking Taim free (and never intended to be, and Joiya was just lying), and he just broke free on his own accord, with the help of his allies (coincidentally making in appear as if Joiya was telling the truth).  In which case, maybe he wasn't even a DF then, and rather was recruited (by Demandred?) after he was free.  Do we know for sure that the BA was involved in freeing Taim (from Liandrin's or some other BA or Forsaken pov)?  I don't remember. <br /><br /><b>She probably didn't know it was a plot dreamed up by Ishy originally, and resurrected by Demmy/Messy, via the DO's instructions most likely, IMO. (If this is the case, then the two were definitely working together. It could also explain Mesaana's pov thoughts: &quot;It could work; it could hand them everything. But it required luck, and gambling made her uncomfortable.&quot; </b><br /><br />I have also been wondering about Mesaana's pov thoughts you quoted above.  It seems to indicate that there was much more to Demandred's plan than just capturing Rand (a plan which was already underway).  It could be as you suggest - it had to do with using Taim to &quot;replace&quot; Rand, etc.  Or, it had to do with using Taim to infiltrate the Black Tower, recuit male channeles to the Dark Side, etc.<br /><br /><b>I also think Demandred's boast at the conclusion of LoC is bravado. In the end, much chaos was sown, but not in the way it was originally planned to happen. He simply put the best face on it and took the credit for the results.</b><br /><br />You're probably right.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Rise and fall, turn the Wheel,<br />'cause all life is<br />Is really just a circle.&quot;<br /><br />-BHT&amp;tM</font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-25 21:29:50
subject: <b>A long time....</b>
body:
<b>The Shaido were also supposed to kill Gawyn and the Younglings (according to Galina's thoughts after the kidnapping - I just stumbled across this today). Just to sow more chaos, I guess. Anyway ... I agree with your comments above.</b><br /><br />This order probably came from Elaida without any prompting from anyone else, IMO. Gawyn and his Younglings are &quot;loose cannons&quot; in her opinion. Not Warders, but Warder trained, and not Tower guards either. They follow Gawyn, who so far has at least been loyal to the Tower while not really having any official association with the Tower. <br /><br /><b>Joiya's revelation seems a little fishy to me. I doubt she could reveal an active plot if she just suspected (without knowing for sure) that it had been abandoned. And, it certainly was still active - Taim was freed very close to when Joiya revealed the plan.</b><br /><br />This could very well be reduced down to perspective in the end run. Did Joiya think it was an official edict of the Shadow or just a plan that Liandrin dreamed up? I'm pretty sure she even says: &quot;That is Liandrin's plan.&quot; So does that make it an official Shadow scheme or just a personal pipe dream? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><b>The only explanation I can think of is that perhaps the BA wasn't involved in breaking Taim free (and never intended to be, and Joiya was just lying), and he just broke free on his own accord, with the help of his allies (coincidentally making in appear as if Joiya was telling the truth). In which case, maybe he wasn't even a DF then, and rather was recruited (by Demandred?) after he was free. Do we know for sure that the BA was involved in freeing Taim (from Liandrin's or some other BA or Forsaken pov)? I don't remember.</b><br /><br />I believe the biggest reason to doubt comes from Siuan's mouth when she receives word of Taim's escape: &quot;It had to be some of his followers. The fools.&quot; (paraphrase) <br /><br />When someone makes an outright statement like that, it makes me stand up and take notice, and so should everyone. This statement just absolutely screams out that there was much more to it than his followers, IMO. <br /><br />Without checking the timeline, I will say that it sure seemed to take a lot longer to capture Taim than it did Logain, despite the fact that Logain was way down in Ghealdan, IIRC, while Taim was in Saldaea, much closer to Tar Valon. In fact, Logain has already been transported all the way to Caemlyn by the time Rand and Mat reach it, which means he has been in custody for some little while. <br /><br />On the other hand, we start hearing reports of events in Saldaea, (Taim obviously), as early as when the original group reaches Baerlon in tEotW. We know sisters are on their way to get him by the beginning of TGH, early June. He is not captured until Rand fights Ishy in late fall, (late Nov.), and when he is freed in Denhuir, it doesn't appear they have moved him very far, very fast towards Tar Valon. News finally arrives in early June (of the next year), about Taim's escape, (although we don't know exactly how long ago it happened, but it couldn't have been kept secret for too long.) So, captured in fall and escapes in June, (a year from the time they went looking for him until he escapes), and he was still a long way from the WT.<br /><br />In the meantime, Rand and co. spent all winter in the mountains, then he made it all the way to Tear, perhaps mostly by foot. <br /><br />Even if Taim's captors were snowbound all winter and didn't move, certainly they should have been farther along than they were by June. It appears they were only about halfway there, maybe a little more, from the best I can figure.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-26 12:29:38
subject: <b>Regarding timelines ...</b>
body:
<b>I believe the biggest reason to doubt comes from Siuan's mouth when she receives word of Taim's escape: &quot;It had to be some of his followers. The fools.&quot; (paraphrase) <br /><br />When someone makes an outright statement like that, it makes me stand up and take notice, and so should everyone. This statement just absolutely screams out that there was much more to it than his followers, IMO. </b><br /><br />Yes.  The way RJ writes, any time a character draws a conclusion based on scanty evidence, we should doubt its accuracy.<br /><br /><b>Without checking the timeline, I will say that it sure seemed to take a lot longer to capture Taim than it did Logain, despite the fact that Logain was way down in Ghealdan, IIRC, while Taim was in Saldaea, much closer to Tar Valon. In fact, Logain has already been transported all the way to Caemlyn by the time Rand and Mat reach it, which means he has been in custody for some little while. </b><br /><br />According to what info I could find, Logain declared himself Dragon in autumn'997 (from Seven Spokes Chronology), and was captured in Mar'998 (Moiraine learns of the battle in Ghealdan when arriving in Baerlon on Mar30).  Assuming Aes Sedai were dispatched soon after Logain declared himself, it took ~5 months (say Oct to Mar) to capture him.<br /><br />Logain shows up in Caemlyn in early May, so it took 5 or 6 weeks, say, to get from Ghealdan to Caemlyn (~1000 miles, so ~25 miles per day).  That seems reasonable, on horseback.<br /><br /><b> On the other hand, we start hearing reports of events in Saldaea, (Taim obviously), as early as when the original group reaches Baerlon in tEotW. We know sisters are on their way to get him by the beginning of TGH, early June. He is not captured until Rand fights Ishy in late fall, (late Nov.)</b><br /><br />So, it took ~5 months (June to Nov) to capture Taim - similar to Logain, it appears, although, as you said, they didn't have to travel as far.<br /><br /><b> and when he is freed in Denhuir, it doesn't appear they have moved him very far, very fast towards Tar Valon. News finally arrives in early June (of the next year), about Taim's escape, (although we don't know exactly how long ago it happened, but it couldn't have been kept secret for too long.) So, captured in fall and escapes in June, (a year from the time they went looking for him until he escapes), and he was still a long way from the WT.<br /><br />In the meantime, Rand and co. spent all winter in the mountains, then he made it all the way to Tear, perhaps mostly by foot. <br /><br />Even if Taim's captors were snowbound all winter and didn't move, certainly they should have been farther along than they were by June. It appears they were only about halfway there, maybe a little more, from the best I can figure.</b><br /><br />Yes, it took much longer (Nov to Jun) to move Taim from Saldaea to the Black Hills (~500 miles) than it took (Mar to May) to move Logain from Ghealdan to Caemlyn (twice as far).  The weather must have played a role; they may have wintered in Saldaea from, say, Nov to Mar (they are much further north than Rand &amp; co. were, so presumable had a longer winter to contend with).  Or, perhaps (as you're suggesting), the Black Ajah also played a role - slowing the progress to effect a rescue.  It's certainly possible.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Rise and fall, turn the Wheel,<br />'cause all life is<br />Is really just a circle.&quot;<br /><br />-BHT&amp;tM</font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-11 08:13:17
subject: <b>You're just reaching for straws</b>
body:
The evidence here is very cicumstantial, at best.  And there is a LOT of conjecture, to the point of absurdity.  One part that stood out was your explanation and lengthening of Asmodean's death scene.  Anybody can make any passage reflect what they want by lengthening it and adding things into it.  The point you missed is that it's SUPPOSED to be fast and quick.  It was just all of a sudden, and Asmodean had no time to react at al.  It was FAST.  You cannot just slow it down like that.<br /><br />Finally, your explanation of &quot;obvious&quot; sure is, err, interesting.<br /><br />This required a lot of effort on this, and you obviously put in that effort.  I would not vote to convict Aviendha, however.  I vote a resounding &quot;Not Guilty&quot;!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Vercingetorix<br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/803.gif" /><br />Theory Post Admin<br /><br />I went to the doctor the other day and all he did was drain some blood from my neck.  Don't ever go to Doctor Acula.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-11 09:13:36
subject: <b>You're wrong...</b>
body:
.. you actually made me change my mind. After having read your theory I believe that Aviendha is the most likely candidate.<br />I always thought the other theories were too far-fetched but Aviendha as a suspect is just too obvious to be false... and so far it was too obvious to be seen or mentioned at all.<br /><br />I liked the parts about LTT telling Rand that &quot;Death comes&quot; and Aviendha touches Rand, freaking him and nearly making him grasp for the Source.<br />And I also liked your quotes as to Aviendha's violent nature and how off-handish she would kill a Darkfriend and not give a second thought about it. Very good!<br /><br />Oh and the Aviendha clues in PoD finally shed some light on RJ's comment about the murderer being obvious up to PoD.<br /><br />And you're right on the Maidens guarding Aviendha.. it is a far stretch which you outlines but nevertheless only one weak point in an overall convincing theory!<br /><br />You have my thumbs up and a supporter for your theory!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>I enjoyed Crossroads of Twilight!<br />If you feel the same way, join the 'CoT Appreciation Signature Club'</i><br /><br /><b>New Spring</b>:<br /><br /><b>Elaida</b>: Good luck on your test. DON'T MESS UP!!! DON'T GET NERVOUS!!!<br /><br /><b>Moiraine</b>: I made it.<br /><br /><b>Elaida</b>: Sh*t.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-11 10:45:28
subject: <b>Nicely written, but ...</b>
body:
I don't happen to agree.  For a couple of reasons.<br /><br />I agree it's possible Aviendha concluded, from the various passages you cited, that Natael was a DF.  And, I agree she was capable of killing him.  But ...<br /><br />1) I don't think Aviendha would have killed him without first discussing it with Rand.  Notice that, in the two examples you cite regarding Aviendha's quickness to consider killing someone as a means to solve a problem (Niclola/Areina &amp; Teslyn), she discusses the idea with others involved first, she doesn't just act on her own whims.  Since Natael was close to Rand, she'd have discussed Natael with Rand before killing him, IMO.<br /><br />2) If she had killed him, I don't believe she'd have kept it secret from Rand.  It's clear from passages in LoC and later that Rand doesn't know Asmo is dead.  I don't recall if Rand ever ponders Asmo's fate in front of Aviendha, but regardless, keeping information like that secret from Rand could be dangerous to Rand - he might decide on a course of action based on the assumption that Asmo is still alive, especially immediately after Rhavin's death and Asmo's disappearance.  Which could lead to trouble.  Aviendha is smart enough to recognize this, so would tell Rand of her deed to prevent it from happening.  Especially if she had an inkling that Natael was more than just your average Joe DF.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Rise and fall, turn the Wheel,<br />'cause all life is<br />Is really just a circle.&quot;<br /><br />-BHT&amp;tM</font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-11 11:35:24
subject: <b>Well...</b>
body:
You sure did it properly for a first time <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perplexed.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smackhead.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /> LLT <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-11 12:01:17
subject: <b>Sammael did it!</b>
body:
First off, I'll give you the same arguments I serve to Etzel in his Slayer theory. Asmodean wasn't killed using physical means.<br /><br />He may have been weak, but he has the knowledge of the Age of Legends. Poke her eyes out with needles of fire, trip her, anything. If he had the time to notice her, as he obviously did by the &quot;You? No!&quot; comment, he had time to channel. Aviendha could not sense him channel, and does not know how to fight a male channeler. Note also that Asmodean <i>was</i> capable of hiding the Gateway, which I always assumed to take considerable more energy than floating a teacup.<br /><br />Then there's traces of the murder. If Aviendha did not think it was wrong to kill Jasin natael, she wouldn't have bothered to clean up the scene. Killing someone with a pointy object leaves traces behind, and servants would have notified Rand, especially when he was looking for the gleeman.<br /><br />Then there are the arguments others have given. She probably wouldn't have acted against someone so obviously close to Rand without demanding consel of someone else, probably a Wise One.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>War must be, while we defend our lives against a destroyer who would devour all; but I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend</i><br />~Faramir</font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-11 12:25:20
subject: <b>umm</b>
body:
Well I am at school right now and don't have my books on me but I have a quick question, is there any way to be sure there was no fighting in that part of the castle? if not then we should assume there was. and that means that any blood wouldn't be out of the ordinary and that the body could have been just as easily tossed into a pile of trollocs to be burned or however they got rid of them. Just a couple quick 2 cents.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Ipkin Styld<br />Channeling Borderlander<br />Slayer of renegade Whitecloaks<br />Kicker of major Trolloc Rear-end</font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-11 12:29:48
subject: <b>The precision of a link.</b>
body:
1st off, its quite a good idea, and a good theory, but...<br />Aviendha cannot use gateways at this point. She &quot;forgot&quot; it after she ran away from Rand.<br />Fanatic-templar:<br />We have Rand's POV in CoS saying that the weave to bend light requires very little of the power, so that you would have to be almost on top of a person to feel the weave on him.


created: 2005-05-11 13:26:41
subject: <b>I give you an &quot;A&quot; for effort, but sadly I disagree.</b>
body:
The same arguments above, plus:<br /> <br />Aviendha, would have had to communicate that she had killed Asmodean. I can go as far to accept that she &#8220;figured&#8221; out that he was a DF.  But she also has observed how much Rand has sought his counsel (i.e. she would wait outside his tent until he was finished with him).<br />Plus she was a maiden of the spear, she would have told the battle leader what happened.  I can not accept any answer that she would hide this and not (1) Aeil finding out and telling Rand.  The whereabouts of Asmodean is important to Rand.  That information wouldn&#8217;t be held back and not communicated, at the very least with a wise one.<br />We have to assume there is a standing order if anybody sees Jasin Natel that Rand should be informed immediately.  I mean he is a dreaded forsaken who parents frighten their children with.<br /><br />A couple of other points:<br />Aviendha doesn&#8217;t know how to Travel yet.  She learned that while with Elayne &amp; Nynaeve.  So she couldn&#8217;t have traveled or skimmed to get Asmodean.<br /><br />Aviendha couldn&#8217;t have been there long enough to learn her way around the palace, so she could run and take another path to be there before Asmodean walked through the door.  You have pointed out how confusing the palace is already.<br /><br />We do not know where the door leads to.  It could be into a pantry, a storage room for cleaning materials or maintenance on the fountain.  It could have lead to a hallway or even a quite room.  We do not know, so we do not know if there are other access points of entry or exit.<br /><br />If Aviendha channeled Rand would have sensed it.  This is just an opinion.  We do not have a clue how large an area the court yard covers, or how far Rand was, or even if Asmodean walked towards Rand to the door or away.<br /><br />You saying getting ride of the body isn&#8217;t an important factor, I disagree.  If the Aeil saw that the Cara&#8217;carns bard was killed, I would think that information would have been communicated to him some how.  Plus with a body Rand would know for sure that he wouldn&#8217;t need to worry about Asmodean.  I think part of the motivation was to play mind games with Rand.  Who would want to play mind games with Rand?  <br /><br />I totally agree with Fanatic-Templar that he couldn&#8217;t have been killed by physical means (i.e knife or spear).  He just survived a battle with Trollocs and dark friends.  I think we have to give a Forsaken a little more credit at survival, especially when he still can channel.  <br /><br />Lastly there has been allot of discussion on this subject both in the theory posts and the message board.  The major players on this site have dissected this subject more than any other.  I have been tempted and swayed by a number of well thought out explanations.  I refuse to believe that it was any one person.<br /><br />I have read a convincing theory about Slayer &#8211; Graendal &#8211; Sammael &#8211; Moridin.   They all seem plausible by now.  I can not remember who did this in-depth mathematical post on the message board using the cats on this site, but if I remember correctly the top 5 were Sammael, Graendal, Slayer, Moridin &amp; Lanfear.  They even used Bashere and Paden Fain in the equation, but those characters made the top 5.  <br /><br />You see the problem?  5 characters with motive and means to accomplish the task.  So who is it?  &#8220;Intuitively Obvious&#8221; is a pile of dung which RJ has used to send everybody on a false trail.  <br /><br />I think it was Moridin or RJ.  But by now I have lost my curiosity and don&#8217;t care who did it.  Even if RJ came out and told us who did it, I doubt that everybody would believe him.


created: 2005-05-11 15:33:34
subject: <b>In reponse</b>
body:
First of all, let me say that I dot think that she opened a gateway inside the palace (since everyone who can see her would be wondering where the heck she's going), but it is possible, knowing that she's done it before.  <br /><br />Secondly, I think that Asmodean was already attacked and in the middle of dying by the time he said &quot;You? No!&quot; and that makes a physical attack possible.  <br /><br />Glad you all like it.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">http://www.green-machine.info<br />Making Money Online</font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-11 16:31:42
subject: <b>Did Asmodean go mad?</b>
body:
Has anyone ever set forth that Asmo killed himself?  You know, maybe he went mad and balefired himself?  Objections to this may include:<br /><br />1.	He seemed perfectly normal until opening the pantry door. <br />2.	He doesn&#8217;t have the power to balefire himself.<br />3.	Rand doesn&#8217;t detect the channeling.<br />4.	Graendel seems to know he&#8217;s dead.<br /><br />I&#8217;m sure there are more objections.<br /><br />I respond to the above as follows:<br /><br />1.	Why can&#8217;t madness have a sudden onset?  A madman could surely hallucinate that he&#8217;s about to be killed &#8220;You? No!&#8221; and kill himself.<br />2.	Does balefire really take that much power?  I know that the stronger the weave, the further it will remove its object from the pattern.  Does the true power work differently?  When Rand balefired Rahvin, restoring Asmo to life, was Lanfear&#8217;s shield necessarily restored?<br />3.	If the flow was weak or the true power was used, Rand may not have detected.  He was, as I recall, not at 100% at the end of FoH.<br />4.	Lanfear didn&#8217;t tell her otherwise, and I think she&#8217;s concluded that Asmo is dead because he has been gone for so long.<br />


created: 2005-05-11 17:21:41
subject: <b>.</b>
body:
Too long, just too long. Don't write something this long. Ever.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">http://www.orkut.com/Profile.aspx?uid=4841668765074332965<br /><br />&quot;It's like God gave you the tools to build a house, and the blueprint is in you. Just remember to use rubber gloves.&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-11 17:40:38
subject: <b>I actually didn't scoff</b>
body:
I have a habit of rejecting certain ideas as just not feeling right.  For a while I was disdainful of all the hubub because I thought RJ would tell us who killed Ash eventually but I think he has pretty much indicated that he will not.  But everybody mentioned so far as a suspect has just seemed wrong.  Graendal or any other Forsaken for that matter just doesn't fit into the story.  I had a moment of hope when everyone was suggesting Lanfear or Moiraine but the same day issue put me off as well as the the oddity of the wish factor which I will point out was not actually refuted by RJ's answer if you consider what we know the Finn are capable of doing.  It just takes a little imagination.<br /><br />In any case I am not getting that feeling dismissive feeeling about the Aviendha idea.  I like it and may adopt it.  My only critisms are how you laid out the death scene and how you undermined yourself when trying to explain how Aviendha got there before him.<br /><br />In regard to the death scene I don't think you tie in the comment's with the situation.  Below I explain a little better what I mean by that but for now when I realized where you were going my first thoughts were. &quot;You?&quot;(Aviendha?) &quot;No!&quot;(You just put your shoufa on!)<br /><br />I think you undermined yourself by estimating how far Ash walked and on putting the idea of Aviendha Traveling in.  The one is pure postulation and the second is impossible.  At that point she couldn't remember what she had done to Travel.  And overall neither idea is necessary for your theory Avi could have simply left Mat and shadowed Ash until an oppourtunity presented itself to swing around.<br /><br />The objection to your theory put forth by others is that Aviendha isn't obvious at all but in my mind none of the Forsaken are either.  Rand has just killed one of their cohorts and there is no way disguised or not that any of them would come near him on that day.  Lanfear is unlikely to have done it not only because of her strange circumstances but because the only ways Ash could have been caught like that is if his attacker was stalking him as Avi would have been or if they ran into him by accident like Graendal is presumed to have done.   If it was Lanfear I doubt she would have been whereever it was Ash was and I doubt she would have given him warning like that if she was hunting.  Also due to her personality I think she would have at least attempted to make a scene first before kiling him.<br /><br />I think the main reason I think I had a problem with any of the evil characters being the killer is that I don't think Ash would have said &quot;You?&quot; for any of them.  I think knowing his situation he would have just said &quot;No!&quot;<br /><br />Any evil character would automatically mean his death and as such Ash would not have wasted his breath differentiating between one evil person and another evil person since all of the one's he could recognize would be able to kill him effortlessly.<br />Lanfear and Moiraine are the only ones he would have been surprised to see and I don't think Moiraine would have justified him saying &quot;No!&quot; since there is nothing in my memory that says he knows Moiraine knows about him.<br /><br />However the two words indicate exactly what you are postulating.<br />&quot;You?&quot;(Someone I know but am surprised to see)(Because I just left you sitting at the fountain)<br />&quot;No!&quot;(You are about to kill me)(Because Aiel only put on their shoufa when they are about to kill and I'm the only bad guy here)<br />Every evil character except Lanfear  would not have occasioned surprise.<br />The delay caused by &quot;You&quot; spoken before &quot;No!&quot; idicates that he didn't realize he was going to die right away.  It also indicates that the killer took a moment to kill him.  About the time to raise a veil in my opinion.<br /><br />Accepting that he did not realize right away that he was going to die is one reason why Ash was not able to defend himself aside for the fact that at least at that time Aviendha was stronger in the power than him.<br /><br />Other objection such as palace layout and supposed guards are unimportant because there is no reason why Aviendha couldn't have gotten up and followed Ash while he was still able to be seen from the courtyard  and as you or someone else said there are no Trollocs in the palace for this guard to potentially keep Aviendha away from.<br /><br />Also there is a distinction between an enemy and a DF.  You consult on an enemy.  You kill a DF at the first opportunity and explain later.  If you know Rand did not want him dead you keep the murder from him.  She did not consult Rand when she beat Isendre she told him about it later because she wanted him to know what kind of person she was.  In fact the information that she had beaten her was incidental to her letting him know that she was a bad person.  Rand clearly already knew about Ash's badness and so there was no reason to notify him of his dispatchment.<br /><br />One more thing is that we don't know when Moiraine figured out who Nateal was but she probably found out in the Ring of Ruidean.  Rings Aviendha has been through as well.  So the author doesn't even need to provide other sources for how Avi knew who Nateal was.  Murdering Ash like Moiraine's choice at the docks could have been something she needed to do for the sake of the future she sought.  It may have also necessitated her to keep it a secret.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where did these Skimmers come from?  I mean if they didn't want to read the book they could have just Traveled to another author.  Why risk arriving at the wrong destination?  Why risk falling into darkness?</font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-11 19:05:37
subject: <b>More long explanations</b>
body:
OK:<br /><br />I actually do not believe that Aviendha did use a gateway while within the palace, it is just an additional possibility.<br /><br />I think that when Asmo says &#8220;you? No!&#8221; that he has in fact already been stabbed.  If he&#8217;s not expecting an attack, then he cannot defend himself, especially given that he doesn&#8217;t recognize it as an attack until its too late(He bumped into her in the hallway).   <br /><br />I think that Aviendha would not have asked Rand if he could kill his bard as a DF since Rand would obviously say no and object to the whole situation.  At this point, Aviendha has only two choices of what to believe:<br /><br />(1)	Rand thinks that Natael is not a Darkfriend.  In this case, Aviendha knows that Rand will immediately not allow her to kill him, and will likely either drive her farther away from him or ignore her advice as lunacy or just basing it on her hatred of Natael (every time they&#8217;re together, they&#8217;re on each others nerves).<br />(2)	Rand knows that Natael is a Darkfriend.  At which point she would see Rand as either turning towards the Dark one or playing at a very dangerous situation.  Obviously, Aviendha would act to prevent either case, with or without his approval.<br /><br />And in either of these two cases, she would have removed the body.  If a body is found with a knife puncture in it, who is the first person Rand is going to think is the killer?  The character who expresses the most dislike for Natael, who carries a knife at all times, and one with a violent streak besides:  Aviendha.  <br /><br />Next, Aviendha never really asks for permission to kill anyone. In the Nicola case, Aviendha is in another country at the time, and would have no way to kill Nicola even if she tried.  Aviendha should also have the brains to tell the difference between people who have sold their souls to the Dark One, and regular everyday A-holes.  The same goes for Teslyn.  In the Carridin case, I think she is taking it for granted that they will deal with him as a group, and Elayne or Nynaeve responds to her by telling her that they will leave her alone.  <br /><br />Were she to ask permission of anyone, it would be the Wise Ones, and I&#8217;m not so sure that they would tell Rand whether or not Aviendha killed him.  They seem to take in the confidence of those who bring personal issues to them, like when Aviendha and Elayne are going to the first-sister ritual, the wise one would not tell Elayne what they did to make Aviendha prove that she wanted a sister more than anything else in the world.  <br /><br />I think that Aviendha didn&#8217;t have to keep it a secret from Rand that she killed him.  Rand never asked her if she knows where Natael is.  In the beginning of LoC, Rand is trying desperately to avoid her.  He assumes that Asmo escaped, and therefore would drop the issue quickly with others once he questions some people.  Additionally, in trying to keep the whole situation under wraps, I don&#8217;t think Rand would want to draw that much attention to his lowly bard.  The sooner people forget him, the less likely that Rand gets accused of siding with evil.  <br /><br />The reason I lengthened the death scene was that it allowed me to say what I was going to say in a much more reasonable amount of time (you don&#8217;t actually want any longer explanations do you?).  Time doesn&#8217;t necessarily have to change in my exp<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">http://www.green-machine.info<br />Making Money Online</font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-11 20:58:56
subject: <b>I like it . . . .</b>
body:
Up until this theory I`ve never really had any major feelings on ANY of the suspects. However, I do feel that you have converted one more believer in me. I thought this was a very well thought out theory. And in your defense . . . <br /><br />&quot;No doubt there are some in Cairhien and Rhuidean, but even if you do not walk right into al`Thor, both are full of women who can channel.&quot;<br />&quot;Ignorant girls.&quot; Graendal sniffed.<br />&quot;If a kitchen girl puts a knife in your back,&quot; Semirhage said cooly, &quot;are you any less dead than if you fall in a sha`je duel at Qal?&quot; LoC (The First Message) pg. 68<br /><br />As is pointed out above, as well as many times earlier in the series Channelers are not immune to death, and unless Asmo was holding the Source his sences, and reactions would be no faster than any one elses. Also, in the quote you use about Asmo`s fighting skills, he`s not the greatest fighter, and wouldn`t necessarily react instantly. Power or no, a knife in the heart will kill Asmo just as easily as it would you or I.<br /><br />Those comments were buigging me. heh.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Lugh of the Vanth<br />Prince of Coolavin<br />Lord of the Darmods<br /><br />&quot;If you must mount the gallows, give a jest to the crowd, a coin to the hangman, and make the drop with a smile on your lips.&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-12 01:12:37
subject: <b>Um . . .</b>
body:
I have to agree with  ZehGuga, it was way too long, I read about half then stopped because your evidence was not enough for me to believe you (personally I think it was Lanfear).<br /><br />So maybe next time not so long?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"></font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-12 04:24:48
subject: <b>Good first theory</b>
body:
Are you really a new member or someone we know?<br />Somehow this theory reminds me of Light in the Night's style...<br /><br />Anyway, nice work.<br />I agree that Asmo wasn't killed with balefire but with a physical weapon and certainly not by Graendal as many believe, basically for the points you bring up. <br /><br />I disagree, though, with you conclusion. <br />If you listen to RJ, who says it's possible to figure Asmo's killer just with the clues up to the end of TFoH, Slayer as the top-assassin of the Shadow is a much better candidate.<br /><br />We had two other mysterious murders in the series before Asmo's death, the BA in the Stone and the Gray Man in the WT.<br />Both times Slayer was the hitman.<br /><br />Therefore it makes sense that he was also the one in Asmo's case, especially since Asmo considers that the Shadow might kill him eventually.<br />In my view Slayer gives us a better motive, if he was sent by a Forsaken. <br /><br />Plus, Slayer fits better with Asmo's frightened reaction to the sight of his murderer.<br />Asmo's &quot;You? No!&quot; reaction is the same Slayer describes in WH the BA in the Stone had before he killed them.<br /><br />Furthermore &quot;the word still hung in the air&quot; reminds exactly of the scene in LoC, ch.28, where another assassin of the Shadow, namely a Gray Man suddenly attacks Rand and it's said: &quot;Aviendha's shout still hung in the air&quot;, before the Gray Man is then killed by Rand.<br /><br />So, all in all, if you agree that Asmo could have been killed by a non-channeler, Slayer is by far the better option compared to Aviendha.


created: 2005-05-12 07:57:04
subject: <b>Etzel, you're forgetting so Something...</b>
body:
First off, didn't Taim kill the Grey Man, not Rand?  EIther way, Aviendha's shout hung in the air while a CHANNELER killed the Grey Man.  Voids your argument.<br /><br />Second, on the &quot;obvious&quot; front, answer me this: Was Slayer in The Fires of Heaven?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Vercingetorix<br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/803.gif" /><br />Theory Post Admin<br /><br />I went to the doctor the other day and all he did was drain some blood from my neck.  Don't ever go to Doctor Acula.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-12 12:44:51
subject: <b>To Vercingetorix</b>
body:
<b> First off, didn't Taim kill the Grey Man, not Rand EIther way, Aviendha's shout hung in the air while a CHANNELER killed the Grey Man. Voids your argument.&quot; </b><br /><br />Yes, Taim killed him.<br /><br />Anyway, the point is that the expression &quot;still hung in the air&quot; is just used for a quick course of events: Rand pushes Aviendha, she screams, then she falls down, the Gray Man takes his knife and darts forward while her shout still hangs in the air.<br /><br />Then Rand uses the power.<br /><br />The same way Asmo could have been killed quickly with a crossbow, for example, while his scream still hung in the air, especially considering that he was very surprised, shocked and certainly didn't react as fast as the wonderboy Rand.<br /><br /><b> Second, on the &quot;obvious&quot; front, answer me this: Was Slayer in The Fires of Heaven? </b><br /><br />Slayer isn't seen in TFoH, that's correct.<br /><br />But RJ never said that the killer must be in this book to be obvious.<br />On the contrary, he said that there are enough clues in the first five books to determine the killer and thus making it obvious in RJ's view.<br />After the first five books, one can figure that Slayer is a top hitman of the Shadow and then obviously used to kill a Renegade Forsaken.<br /><br />On the other hand, Graendal is hardly mentioned in the books before TFoH, maybe one or two times, least of all appears then (we knew of course more about Slayer at this time who was already mentioned in EotW). <br />Therefore you also won't find any clues for her in the first four books and only very little in TFoH.<br /><br />All, in all, Graendal is in no way an obvious killer before LoC.<br />This and some other points practically rule her out as the killer.


created: 2005-05-12 16:52:30
subject: <b>I like it...</b>
body:
I've actually never been really intersted in who killed asmodean untill recently, but this is my favorite theory so far. Basically just because its a new view and begins a new argument. I don't have my own theory yet so i think I will adopt this one on principle.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" />Screaming_Defiance<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" />I demand the return of Hurin<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />I love these smiley's<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/clap.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banghead.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shakefist.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-12 23:22:41
subject: <b>Arguing ( 'cause I like it )</b>
body:
Well, I'm not arguing about Slayer anymore he just isn't anywhere near obvious 'till Winter's Heart. I mean, in <i>The Shadow Rising</i>, all we knew was that he was an important member of the Shadow who hunts wolves and that Luc and Isam were linked, one in the World of Dreams and one in the Waking World. I thought they were to different people bonded as though the Warder Bond.<br /><br />As for Aviendha...<br /><br /><b>I think that when Asmo says &#8220;you? No!&#8221; that he has in fact already been stabbed. If he&#8217;s not expecting an attack, then he cannot defend himself, especially given that he doesn&#8217;t recognize it as an attack until its too late(He bumped into her in the hallway).</b><br /><br />You do not say &quot;You? No!&quot; when you're being killed by an Aiel. You say &quot;gurghl ark murg&quot; 'cause you can't breathe or your blood is coming out of places where it shouldn't be coming out from.<br /><br /><b>I think that Aviendha would not have asked Rand if he could kill his bard as a DF since Rand would obviously say no and object to the whole situation. At this point, Aviendha has only two choices of what to believe:</b><br /><br />Maybe she would not ask Rand. She would have asked a Wise One however.<br /><br />Besides, she would have reported it afterwards.<br /><br /><b>And in either of these two cases, she would have removed the body. If a body is found with a knife puncture in it, who is the first person Rand is going to think is the killer? The character who expresses the most dislike for Natael, who carries a knife at all times, and one with a violent streak besides: Aviendha.</b><br /><br />Why does this ( to me ) seem to violate <i>ji'e'toh</i>? If she does something she knows she shouldn't do, she has to punish herself. For something like this, we'd get a clue.<br /><br /><b>Were she to ask permission of anyone, it would be the Wise Ones, and I&#8217;m not so sure that they would tell Rand whether or not Aviendha killed him. They seem to take in the confidence of those who bring personal issues to them, like when Aviendha and Elayne are going to the first-sister ritual, the wise one would not tell Elayne what they did to make Aviendha prove that she wanted a sister more than anything else in the world.</b><br /><br />Already having an important character like Aviendha, with numerous PoVs, be the murderer and never hint at it, now you have accomplices who never hint at it either? I understand RJ's &quot;intuitively obvious&quot; may be skewered, but this?<br /><br />Anyway, people would notice Jasin's death. They already did - they told him they were certain he had died, that's what he was reflecting upon when his PoV started! So clearly, Aviendha hauling Jasin Natael through the palace would be remarked.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>War must be, while we defend our lives against a destroyer who would devour all; but I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend</i><br />~Faramir</font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-13 04:15:44
subject: <b>More about obvious</b>
body:
As others said, Aviendha is in no way an obvious killer whom we can figure with the clues from the first five books.<br />Before his death Asmodean just left her standing with Mat near the fountain. <br />A reader can hardly expect or figure that she suddenly appeared in a room in front of Asmo, ready to kill him. <br /><br />Also &quot;the blood draining from his face&quot; indicates that Asmo, after all a Forsaken, was immediately very surprised and deeply scared just when he saw his killer.<br />I think this indeed implies that the murderer was a mayor evil guy, especially since Asmo always feared that someone from the Shadow might kill him.<br />Aviendha's view wouldn't provoke such a strong reaction IMO.<br /><br />Furthermore, for a reader of this scene it's rather obvious that an evil character would assassinate someone else this way, not someone on Rand's side (like we see many other murders or murder attempts by the Shadow in the books).<br /><br />Finally, I don't understand why Aviendha would hide the whole assassination such perfectly, if it's a proper procedure among Aiel to kill Darkfriends as soon as possible.<br /><br />All in all, maybe Aviendha could have done it, but in my opinion it's not really more likely than Fain, LTT, Bashere or someone else from the &quot;loony theories&quot;.


created: 2005-05-13 07:12:55
subject: <b>Etzel....</b>
body:
The last we see of Slayer is 1100 pages and two books prior to the death, riding from the Two Rivers with an arrow through his chest.<br /><br />How can THAT be obvious?<br /><br />What's more, there's the whole &quot;you should certainly be able to figure it out by the end of Path of Daggers&quot; comment.  Was Slayer in Lord of Chaos?  Was Slayer in A Crown of Swords?  Was Slayer in A Path of Daggers?<br /><br />Well?<br /><br />And the only times we've seen a &quot;cry still hung in the air&quot; have been from scenes with channeling.  There's no way you can use those as evidence that physical attacks could have occured.  Of course, I can use them as evidence of channeling attacks...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Vercingetorix<br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/803.gif" /><br />Theory Post Admin<br /><br />I went to the doctor the other day and all he did was drain some blood from my neck.  Don't ever go to Doctor Acula.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-13 09:37:46
subject: <b>You?</b>
body:
I think Asmo's shout of 'You?' is a clue. None of the Forsaken much see other human beings as anything but objects. His shouting 'You?' suggests he sees the person facing him as a person, not an object. This inclines me to believe it must be another Forsaken. But none of the theories that try to show it is one are very convincing at all.<br /><br />So it must be someone powerful he has dealt with considerably since he became just common Jasin the gleeman. I liked Moiraine as the killer for a long time for that reason, but can't really justify it given the timing (besides, she is probably burned out, like Lanfear was). <br /><br />Also Lan, he is so impressive that even a Forsaken might have to take him into account. But I can come up with no way to get that darned horse of his from the Cairhein to Caemlin in time to do the job. He himself might have made the trip, on the same platform all the Aiel warriors rode with Rand. I can just see some Aiel inviting him along for the adventure, they seem to like Lan quite a bit. But that horse. Oh well, another fine theory shot down by a fact.<br /><br />Your Avienda theory has a lot going for it. A dreamer could easily have told her, 'get that gleeman alone and off him, don't ask why, just do it,' and she would. And it is wise one's business, not something to mention to any mere man... Remember that the Wise Ones want Masema killed, even though Rand has different plans for him. They don't seem to have told Rand they are planning  to kill him either. Avienda is under their orders, not Rand's. And she would kill in a heartbeat anyone who threatened Rand.<br /><br />I agree that there is plenty of reason to suppose Avienda knows who and what Asmo is: the rings, Moiraine telling her, her own suspicions after all of his slips of the tongue, the Dreamers etc. I can't believe that Moiraine didn't set up several plans to take care of Asmo after she was gone, that is one reason I suspected Lan (that darned horse!). Avienda is someone Moiraine might trust with that info, and know she could and would do the job.


created: 2005-05-13 11:14:16
subject: <b>Why nobody suggesting Myrdraal?</b>
body:
Asmo would certainly be surprised it to see. He certainly would be surprised if it tries to kill him. And the thing can appear in any place where is the shadow. Very obvious killer to me.<br /><br />


created: 2005-05-13 14:20:15
subject: <b>YES!!!</b>
body:
I totally agree with you. When I read TFoH for the first time, I immediately thought of Aviendha. I spent the rest of the day re-reading that chapter trying to figure it out, so you make perfect sense. Thank you!!!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Was'up</font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-13 14:23:01
subject: <b>Who knows?</b>
body:
Maybe a Myrdraal did kill him for all we know, but the way that the passage is written suggests that the killer was more than a common Myrdraal.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;What do you mean, why's it got to be built?&quot; he said. &quot;It's a bypass. You've got to build bypasses.&quot; - Mr Prosser, head builder</font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-13 15:18:17
subject: <b>Responses</b>
body:
&quot;You do not say &quot;You? No!&quot; when you're being killed by an Aiel. You say &quot;gurghl ark murg&quot; 'cause you can't breathe or your blood is coming out of places where it shouldn't be coming out from.&quot;<br /><br />Haven't you any dramatic flare?  Not even enough time for some famous last words and all that.<br /><br />&quot;Already having an important character like Aviendha, with numerous PoVs, be the murderer and never hint at it, now you have accomplices who never hint at it either? I understand RJ's &quot;intuitively obvious&quot; may be skewered, but this?&quot;<br /><br />Avi has had exactly 3 PoVs in 10 books.  I don't believe we have yet had a PoV by a Wise One.  We also have had very little insight into their camps, what they discuss etc. after the murder.  <br /><br />&quot;Anyway, people would notice Jasin's death. They already did - they told him they were certain he had died, that's what he was reflecting upon when his PoV started! So clearly, Aviendha hauling Jasin Natael through the palace would be remarked.&quot;<br /><br />And as I noted in the theory itself, theres relatively few people inside the palace itself.  the only people who are in the palace are other Aiel, Rand, Asmo and Mat and Bashere.  <br /><br />&quot;As others said, Aviendha is in no way an obvious killer whom we can figure with the clues from the first five books.<br />Before his death Asmodean just left her standing with Mat near the fountain. <br />A reader can hardly expect or figure that she suddenly appeared in a room in front of Asmo, ready to kill him. &quot;<br /><br />I thought it was.  Whenever I saw a scene with Asmodean involved, he'd ALWAYS make a comment like those i cited.  Especially with Aviendha around.  I kept waiting for him to get found out, and when he did, I expected an assassination.  If someone knows that Rand, who is supposed to be the world's savior is plotting with known Darkfriends, then he would have been a target as well (As very powerful evil guys should not be allowed to live very long).  Since he was not, i concluded that someone close to him found out.  That's what got me thinking about her as the killer.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">http://www.green-machine.info<br />Making Money Online</font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-13 19:36:14
subject: <b>I haven't responded to a theory in a while....</b>
body:
Just for Etzel, no, this theory is not mine using another sn, although I do agree it does read very much like it is. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />To the author, my congratulatons for a thoroughly researched and well put together theory! <br /><br />I, for one, have never had a problem with the &quot;obvious&quot; statement by RJ. (RJ and Etzel have both explained where this originated from.) <br /><br />My biggest issue with your idea is getting Aviendha ahead of Asmo, and to the other side of the doorway. In his own pov, Asmo clearly thinks that he won't play his music for two people that don't appreciate it, and walks away from them, leaving them behind him. This creates a very serious time-constraint issue which I don't believe is surmountable to overcome or explain away. As others have already mentioned, Avi did not know how to skim yet, and she had previously used the Traveling weave out of pure desperation, and didn't recall how she did it. For her to run from her location and place herself on the other side of the doorway ahead of Asmo would be practically impossible. To do so, she would have to know where he was headed in the first place, and she would have to know a shorter path to get there. I see nothing that shows she could know either of these.<br /><br />Still, it was nice to read a well written theory. Thank you.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-14 11:14:02
subject: <b>To Vercingetorix</b>
body:
This theory and discussion should be about the pros and cons of Aviendha being the killer, therefore I don't really want to explain my theory about Slayer here again (besides that I did it countless times in the past... <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />).<br /><br />But to answer you at least, in my view the simple reasoning is that RJ invented the character Slayer (nomen est omen) as the top killer and bounty hunter of renegades and enemies for the Shadow. <br />He never hid that since Slayer also hunted Fain in TSR.<br /><br />That means consequently, if a renegade Forsaken is murdered, it's the most obvious thought that this killer assassinated him; such actions are exactly Slayer's purpose.<br /><br />In my opinion that simply makes Slayer a far more obvious killer than anyone else, and explains why RJ could think it should be quite easy to deduce from his PoV.<br /><br /><br />And to Light in the Night,<br /><br /><b> Just for Etzel, no, this theory is not mine using another sn, although I do agree it does read very much like it is. </b> <br /><br />Ah, ok, well in this case Alydar should just take it as a compliment that I saw similarities between you both. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />


created: 2005-05-14 13:31:05
subject: <b>Death Coming</b>
body:
I think your interpretation of Lews saying &quot;Death is coming&quot; is a little off.  I would have to go back and look to make sure, but I believe right after he said this a grey man appeared.  If I also remember correctly, these things scared the bejesus outta everyone.  I think Lews knew the grey man was coming becuase he could feel it's evil, and it was not in reference to Avi.  Could be wrong though, haven't read in awhile.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Non Serviam</font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-15 21:05:53
subject: <b>I agree with the thoery sort of</b>
body:
I have just reread the book and the only contentions I have against it are 2 things that came to mind.<br /><br /><br />One Kadre (the pedler) would be the last person asmo would expect to see. He had also killed the others of his party who were assumed to have escaped as Asmo was sure to have done. He also has not been able to get close to him and mentions it at one time.<br /><br />His wagon exploded by Lanfear but no mention of his body is anywhere. She could have gated him away elsewhere before it blew up.<br /><br />Rand does shiver as he is watching Asmo and I think thats when a womans channeling places the killer in place. Avi is there at that time. So its not her.<br /><br />Avi to me seemed the most obvious however Kadre also came to mind as one person who Asmo who has motive to kill Asmo. And would kill and clean up the body.<br /><br />Just my thoughts on this. I have long thought it was Avi but I cant get around her presence at the fountain.<br /><br />It could be that Rands shiver is not a womans channeling he has after all come to recognize his response to it. Lan fear knowing about the plan to go after Ravi could have sent Kadre on ahead.<br /><br />I do believe Asmo was killed swiftly and did not have time to react.<br /><br />It is a good theory and baring Kadre doing it I would vote for Avi.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">See that Seagull in the sky Im just glad cows dont fly.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-16 09:45:38
subject: <b>Re Kadere the pedlar</b>
body:
Given that we see a man-shaped sack of skin dangling from Lanfear's fingers after the wagon explodes, I think Kadere can be safely eliminated as an Asmodean-assassin.


created: 2005-05-16 09:53:00
subject: <b>Sorry, one problem</b>
body:
Kadere was killed at the docks.  Lanfear is talking to him, and then the scene cuts to Rand's PoV:<br /><br />     &quot;At the other end of the line, the side of Kaere's wagon explded, spliters scything down Aiel and townsfolk.  Rand knew; he did not need goosebumps prickling his skin to know.  He raced towards the wagon, after Moiraine and Lan.  Time seemed to slow, everything happening at once, as if the air were turning to jelly.<br />     Lanfear stepped out into stunned silence except for the moans and screams of the injured, something limp and pale and red-streaked hanging from her hand, dragging behind her as she walked down invisible steps.  'He told me Lews Therin,' she almost screamed, flinging the pale thing into the air.  Something caught it, inflated it for a moment, into a bloody transparent statue of Hadnan Kadere; his skin, removed whole.&quot; - TFoH pg. 887<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">http://www.green-machine.info<br />Making Money Online</font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-16 15:48:32
subject: <b>I like it</b>
body:
Your theory is very well thought out. Aviendha is by far more obvious as a killer than Slayer or any of the forsaken, at least if you think it through.<br /><br />You have totally convinced me. All other Asmodean theories I've read have been clueless. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Thank you!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bela.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bela.gif" border="0" /> Don't even think to ask how I came up with my nick; you don't want to know <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-16 21:05:25
subject: <b>Guess I missed that</b>
body:
Not sure why I thought the guy might still be alive.<br /><br />I will admit that every time I read the thing I keep thinking its Avi that kills him.<br /><br />The only other person I can even remotely think of would be Moraine, since we dont know exactly what happened with her.<br /><br />I still think it was Avi but there is that difficulty of how she got ahead of him.<br /><br />I dont know where I would find the references that disprove<br />Bashere or Taim since they would have to remove Asmo if one of them is a forsaken or DF that he would be familiar with.<br />And both show up relatively soon after Asmo's death.<br /><br />Just throwing out random thoughts.<br /><br />I agree Asmo not need be killed with the power if it happens quick and unexpected.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">See that Seagull in the sky Im just glad cows dont fly.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-17 10:15:21
subject: <b>OK, I was wrong</b>
body:
about the whole Death is coming thing.  That was in the same chapter as the whole Grey Man thing.  Must have just missed that cuz it took death a while to come (10-15 pages or so).  <br /><br />I don't suppose there's any way to edit my theory once it's up?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">http://www.green-machine.info<br />Making Money Online</font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-18 12:41:01
subject: <b>Asmodean just left Avi with Matt at the pool????</b>
body:
So, No!<br /><br />Columbo is on the case!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-18 23:08:17
subject: <b>Inconsistancies in text</b>
body:
The theory states that Aviendha would have Traveled the short distance to get ahead of Asmodean.  Later on, it reminds us that Aviendha was shamed by her inability to weave a good gateway.  Indeed, even up to CoT, she has not been able to remember the weave she instinctively used to escape from Rand, which is the only one she knew until she was taught the Aes Sedai way, AFTER Asmodean's death.


created: 2005-05-19 15:22:34
subject: <b>I love this theory</b>
body:
I've read all the Asmo theories i can find, and this is the first one that actually has a basis in logic, and deduction.  I feel like the whole of the theory is not perfect particularly in the rationalizaion of how Avi moves around and the maidens &quot;guarding her&quot; but i think it addresses all the right issues and points to the right facts in a way that no othe rAsmo theory has done otherwise.  <br /><br />Slayer &amp; Greandal theories are the only ones that seem to have much serious support, but both only include reasons to think they might have done it.  Neither actually has evidence.  Avi actually has motive, location, ability to kill, and fits the conditions of the murder.  <br /><br />As far as why she wouldn;t talk about it, or why she would hide it.  It is very reasonable to believe that she acts with the full support and guidance of the wise ones and all the Aeil.  In a similar situation (Masema) the Wise Ones are happy to deal with killing someone simply because they need to be killed.  Don't think they would bother to mention it to Rand if he didn't ask either.  Add in the fact that Rand works hard to avoid Aviendha for quite some time following the event, and there is little reason to expect Aviendha WOULD blurt out &quot;oh by the way, Rand, i killed Jasin because i figured out he was a darkfriend and the wise ones decided he needed to be eliminated.&quot;<br /><br />To put it all plainly, Aviendha killing Asmo makes sense in a way that the other theories do not.  One might say it was intuitively obvious if you lined up all the characters and applied the same questions to each one.<br /><br />Did he/she have a reason to kill him that the reader would know of (in comparison to anyone else)?<br />Would he/she have been able to do the deed?<br />Was he/she capable of being at the scene of the crime?<br />Did we have all this information by the end of tFoH?<br /><br />The fact is that Geandal and Slayer do not fit these questions any better than any other forsaken, and its only desire to see something between the lines that translates vagueness or general identity into motive.  Avi answers all of the above questions better than anyone else in the WoT.  Therefore, the answer is intuitively obvious.


created: 2005-05-20 10:18:46
subject: <b>Not very logical to me</b>
body:
Aviendha couldn't have done it. She couldn't possibly have gotten behind exactly the right door leading to who knows what? at exactly the right time in a place she didn't know at all. Let's see what she would have had to do to get there:<br /># she had to suddenly break off conversation with one of the more alert and suspicious persons in the WOT universe<br /># she had to follow Asmo without it being noticed by either Matt or Asmo himself, without having a Moiraine style tracking device (there's no way Moiraine would have told her, and if Avi had figured it out on her own she should have mentioned or used it) and she doesn't do healing so couldn't get a direction that way either<br /># she had to preguess which door Asmo would take in a palace that according to all reports resembles a rabbit warren, where she'd been for just a few hours, practically impossible even if she had a 'doorway memory' from Rhuidean<br /># she had to get to the door before Asmo did without using gateways, which she couldn't, or exibiting any other unusual behaviour which might raise suspicion that she intended to go hunt down somebody or something (after all she was prohibited from going after the trollocs and any preperations to off Asmo would have looked the same)<br /># and last but not least, she had to overpower a male channeler who had not only stood his ground against hordes of Trollocs a short time before, but also had centuries of experience fending of murder attempts from far better plotters then she ever will be<br /><br />OK some of these arguments could be rebutted again by suggesting that it was a big Maiden plot, but there's no way a secret can be kept that's known by so many, and besides why would they want it secret? That wouldn't in keeping with ji'e'toh<br />Besides Rand was obviously upset and worried by Asmo's disappearance, so it seems logical to tell him eventually <br /><br />Though I do admit she has a motive, she couldn't have been at the spot nor do I think she had means to kill Asmo, or even inspire much fear in him, so I'm still going for Graendal did it or Lanfear did it<br /><br />


created: 2005-05-20 10:56:24
subject: <b>Maidens or Wise ones</b>
body:
A thought keeps coming back to me in all this discussion<br /><br />While Avi is an obvious choice due to the times Asmo almost spills the beans in front of her. There are 2 other characters that could also work out here.<br /><br />Moriane: She knew Asmo was there she also knew some things about the future paths from the docks on. Many many speculate that Moraine is trapped in the Finn world but I have my doubts. For one thing when Rand speaks to Amys about Moraines death she says something like &quot;You are a fool about this and many other things&quot;<br /><br />The thought that comes to me is this. Asmo's killer is either Moraine or Ayms.<br /><br />Let me present some reasoning as to why Ayms can be the killer.<br /><br />We keep assuming that the WO's cant travel. However they warn severly about entering the dream in the flesh. How would one enter the dream in the flesh if not via a gateway.<br />In fact this is how Eggy discovers traveling in the first place. Using Tar. If Eggy can pull it together why cant the WO. In fact I would hazard to guess that Avi's gateway to far snows was a half dredged up memory of something the wise ones have done that she has seen. A weave like that cant have just popped into her head out of thin air.<br /><br />More evidence is the way she unweaves a gateway later she says the WO teach unweaving so I would suggest that avi has seen a gateway weave before she actually makes one. <br /><br />Based on Ayms comment to Rand and Mo's letter I think that Amys knows who Asmo is.<br /><br />I have always thought that a light friend would be the one to kill Asmo.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">See that Seagull in the sky Im just glad cows dont fly.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-20 13:26:32
subject: <b>The Amys Comment</b>
body:
was in regard to the fact that Rand was saying how he could have changed things.  She is calling him a fool because she understands that Moiraines Death could not have been prevented and that it was her choice to tell him of the events or not.  <br /><br />As far as Moiraine, I think it's impossible for her to have come back from Finnland and kill him, but that's a discussion for another place and another time.  <br /><br />For the whole &quot;she couldn't have been there&quot; arguement, remember that she is in the same building with a very powerful Ta'veren.  The chances that they could have met in the hallways were greatly increased. <br /><br />As far as Asmodean's survival skills, look at the quotes in my theory on his inability to channel.  And for surviving the battle, I think Asmodean would survive easily being surrounded by a large group of Aiel to protect him.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">http://www.green-machine.info<br />Making Money Online</font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-20 13:50:18
subject: <b>To smallcatherine</b>
body:
Why is hard to believe that the maidens would assist Avi in killing Asmo without telling rand?  They don't make a habit of telling him anything he doesn't need to know.  Hell, women not  telling men things they would want to know is one of the main themes of WoT.  Its drilled into our heads over and over that Wise Ones don't tell Chiefs or the Car'a'Carn anything they don't want him to know and asking about something they don't want to talk about is a good way to never find anything out.  If Avi did this with their backing, there is ZERO reason to think that any Aeil would go out of their way to tell Rand anything.  There is nothing in Ji'e'toh that frowns on keeping secrets, in fact it seems to be central to Aeil culture.


created: 2005-05-20 15:30:31
subject: <b>Aviendha is still an Apprentice</b>
body:
I disagree.<br />Partly because of some prior mentioned arguments.<br />About the fact that Aviendha would have killed Asmo with the approval of the wise ones. I cannot believe they would let Avi do the Task. They wouldn&#180;t have sent an apprentice to do it. I aggree that Avi would be the only choice as full Wise ones do not take part in Battles, but i cannot aggree that they would task her with this not knowing how dangerous Asmo is. If he was a simple Darkfriend they would have sent some &quot;spears&quot; against him. If they knew that he was a forsaken, they had no reason to assume he was shielded and weak, so the chances of Avi surviving would be minimal and she wouldn&#180;t have received approval of this.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">It&#180;s sometimes really inconvienient to have a real life besides WOT.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-20 17:42:32
subject: <b>About stalking someone in a palace</b>
body:
One Avi is a warrior and as such is well able to stalk someone especially if that someone doesn't know to be more alert.  Secondly &quot;warren&quot; indicates a level of disorder that is contradictory to the Ogier architectural principle or any other palace builder's architectural principle for that matter.  The very fact that the palace has hallways leads to the idea that you can estimate locations based on number of doors and length of hallways.  Rand's and other's inability to keep track of where they are is not due to layout but sheer number of rooms and hallways.  Confusion would be eliminated as the area covered became smaller.  Thirdly Ash seemed to know that there should have been a pantry nearby and therefore Aviendha would know this too and probably better.  If he headed in that direction there is no reason to think she couldn't guess he needed a drink and find another route.<br /><br />Also I'd like to take back my critisism of the proposed death scene, if for no other reason than Avi wouldn't have had a veil to cover her face and the fact that the blood drained from his face before he spoke.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where did these Skimmers come from?  I mean if they didn't want to read the book they could have just Traveled to another author.  Why risk arriving at the wrong destination?  Why risk falling into darkness?</font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-20 20:18:49
subject: <b>Challenge your assumptions</b>
body:
Here is the conversation in context (TFOH Ch 53 pg 635 HC)<br /><br />Avi is explaining she is fit to go on to Caemlyn and at the end says<br /><br />&quot;I did not see all that happened.&quot;<br /><br />&quot;They are...&quot; Rand cleared his throat. &quot;They are both gone. Lanfear is dead.&quot; And so is Moiraine.&quot; Egwene began to cry, sobs shaking her in Aviendah's clasp. Aviendha put her head down on the other womans shoulder as if she, too, might weap.<br /><br />&quot;You are a foo, Rand al'Thor,&quot; Amys said standing. That surprising youthful face beneath her headscarf and white hair was stone hard &quot;About this and many other things you are a fool.&quot;<br /><br />To me this only meant one thing Mo wasnt dead.<br /><br />Now many have predicted her return based on a number of things including Mins viewings.<br /><br />As to Avi getting ahead of Asmo it could be simply that she followed him and slipped by him. We really dont know how far he had gone. His leaving Avi and Mat does not mean they stayed there. In fact I doubt that Mat would stay near Avi alone by choice.<br /><br />In fact we do not know if the person who killed Asmo was behind the door or behind him. He could have easily been opening the door noticed Avi behind him and the whole exchange followed.<br /><br />The evidence against a male channeler gating in to kill Asmo is pretty good.<br /><br />There is some evidence based on Rands shiver that a female may have gated in but a shiver is sometimes just a shiver.<br />After all seeing the dead walking would make most people shiver.<br /><br />As to the keeping of secrets the WO's and Maidens heck Aiel in general keep plenty of stuff from Rand.<br /><br />There is only one thing we know for sure about Asmo's death <br />from his final words.<br /><br />He knew who it was <br /><br />The &quot;No!&quot; Could have been a prelude to anything. Being furhther shielded, Seeing the intended murder. Any number of things. <br /><br />If not Avi then Amys or Mo. <br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">See that Seagull in the sky Im just glad cows dont fly.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-31 19:29:00
subject: <b>WOW</b>
body:
Just thought I would let you know that Aviendha has always been my number 1 suspect. I have always thought this from the first time I read the series. To me it has always been intuitivly obvios.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Egwene Fan  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/egwene.gif" border="0" /><br />Elaida will fall!!! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /> <br />Egwene is meant to rule the White Tower and even Rand will know her fury!! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-06-03 02:16:31
subject: <b>Uhm....NO!</b>
body:
That was one of the longest theories I've read in at least 4 years, but...all for not.  Sorry.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" />Big Pimp of the West<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" />Destroyer of Lannisters<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gimli.gif" border="0" />Last of the Druids<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gimli.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" />&quot;This is our treaty written; This is agreement made.<br /> Thought is the arrow of time; Memory never fades.<br /> What was asked is given. The price is paid.&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-06-08 19:27:49
subject: <b>Am I the only one who doesn't really care?</b>
body:
Tho I still hope you're right. That would be totally cool.<br /><br />However as arguing with extreemly long posts on little senteses seems to be the in thing I'll argue a small point I disagree with.<br /><br />This theory claims Avi and Mat don't like each other.<br /><br />Well.<br /><br />Mat and Avi like each other. I think a lot of people miss the tone of the girls with Mat. They all like him. Elayne, Egwene, Nynaeve, Avi... even Moiraine and Nynaeve. He's the sexy rebel without a cause bad boy.<br /><br />The arguing and stuff is either rooted in sexual frustration or that arggumentative type of flirting you have with someone when you don't want to admit that you want them before they admit they want you.<br /><br />There are several instances of Mat and Avi getting along. Mat has a lot of respect for Avi but struggles to keep his hands off coz he is a good mate and knows his buddy rand has dibs.<br /><br />Avi likes Mat but knows he is not a good long term prospect, (but if they had a few drinks...)<br /><br />Okay here are some examples of Mat and Avi getting friendly.<br /><br />The bit when Mat says that there is nothing like a dance before bed in SR. and she gives him a smile.<br /><br />The bit when Mat is checking out her sexy legs when they are riding to Salidar.<br /><br />The bit when Avi asks the three snobby girls why the don't use Mat to get the bowl.<br /><br />The way she says &quot;Matrim Cauthon&quot; BREATHLESSLY when the AS are all crowded about her.<br /><br />The way she tells Elayne she has toh to Mat.<br /><br />How Mat says that Avi doesn't need guards. He's showing her a lot of respect there!<br /><br />Sure they like each other.<br /><br />How was that for a long pointless post?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-11-19 22:47:07
subject: <b>Mat and Aviendha</b>
body:
Have you considered the possibility that Mat and Aviendha worked together to kill him, based on Rand noticing them talking just before Natael was killed.  Perhaps they worked out his identity as a darkfriend/forsaken together and figured out a way to kill him.  Aviendha traveled to appear before him in the pantry, surprising him while Mat killed him with a spear(or golden bee dagger that killed Melindra) from behind.     You? (how did Aviendha get here?) No! (I've just been stabbed)


created: 2007-05-02 19:06:43
subject: <b>I was listening to the Audio Book for LoC Today</b>
body:
and I thought of this theory becuase of the quote about &quot;Death coming&quot;<br /><br />I believe Lews Therin was refering to the Gray (Grey) Man. I didn't catch it when I was reading it but when I heard it made sense. <br /><br />I don't know if anyone else mentioned it because honestly I was too lazy to read through all the post (I am supposed to be studying for a final) <br /><br />Personally I don't think Aviendha did it, I believe it was Semi but I haven't pulled together a theory yet.  <br /><br />But it is still a very good theory<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Men always believe they are in control of everything around them. When they find out they are not, they think they have failed, instead of learning a simple truth women already know.<br />     -Aviendha<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/avi.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p><a href="http://www.shawnadomanis.com" target="_blank">My bro-in-law rocks</a></p><p></p>


created: 2005-05-12 08:14:58
subject: <b>Finally!</b>
body:
An Asmodean theory I agree with.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Vercingetorix<br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/803.gif" /><br />Theory Post Admin<br /><br />I went to the doctor the other day and all he did was drain some blood from my neck.  Don't ever go to Doctor Acula.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-12 09:08:30
subject: <b>Well... What a groundbreaking theory on the Asmodean-matter...</b>
body:
I do agree, though... Or he's just fooling around <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perplexed.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smackhead.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /> LLT <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-12 10:58:23
subject: <b>That&#8217;s exactly what I have been saying.</b>
body:
I agree.  Now hopefully people will see the light <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br />


created: 2005-05-12 12:55:33
subject: <b>No...</b>
body:
RJ's obvious comment is a bit ironic.<br /><br />This becomes clear if you read his other answers about Asmo's death where he e.g. states that one can solve the riddle and figure the killer by connecting several clues.<br /><br />He also says in one answer that a teacher of him used the  obvious expression and that he always hated it because it wasn't really obvious.<br />Now he uses it himself to tease us.<br /><br />But if you connect all clues from the first five books and those after TFoH, I think it can really be called obvious in RJ's sense that the assassin Slayer was the killer. <br />At the very latest after his PoV in WH it's clear.


created: 2005-05-12 14:43:20
subject: <b>It truly is the logical answer</b>
body:
Robert Jordan simply didn't give enough evidence to clearly point out a killer. It was meant to be obvious, but the shear number of possibilities makes it near impossible to pin down the killer.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;What do you mean, why's it got to be built?&quot; he said. &quot;It's a bypass. You've got to build bypasses.&quot; - Mr Prosser, head builder</font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-12 15:35:51
subject: <b>Close</b>
body:
Not precisely failed, so much as he didn't need Asmodean in the series anymore, had to kill him, wanted to fire everybody up, and didn't have anyone with a real reason to kill Asmo.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">http://www.orkut.com/Profile.aspx?uid=4841668765074332965<br /><br />&quot;It's like God gave you the tools to build a house, and the blueprint is in you. Just remember to use rubber gloves.&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-12 19:10:27
subject: <b>Or he overestimated our intelligence.</b>
body:
The man reportedly has a 160 IQ, which means that his idea of obvious only applies to less than 1% of the population.  He expects us to be a lot smarter than most of us really are (i.e. as smart as he is), and the result is a mystery that only a small percentage of readers can actually solve.  Oh well.


created: 2005-05-12 20:05:59
subject: <b>Personally, I always thought ...</b>
body:
... that he was being a little sarcastic. His math professor(s) used to tell him that, and, IIRC, it used to tick him off, and they say if you can't beat them, join them... that should be intuitively obvious to the most casual observer <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">The Owl of Minerva flies only at dusk, but the Penguin of Idiotochus waddles all day long.<br />I never fight fire with fire; that's what they expect. No, I fight fire with dead leaves.<br /><br />Zeroinbarnotation, RMCM</font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-12 20:08:57
subject: <b>Oh, excuse me.</b>
body:
Had I, er, casually observed the previous posts, I would have seen that Etzel already said the same thing I was trying to, and better at that. Sorry 'bout that... <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smackhead.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smackhead.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smackhead.gif" border="0" />. Ignore me.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">The Owl of Minerva flies only at dusk, but the Penguin of Idiotochus waddles all day long.<br />I never fight fire with fire; that's what they expect. No, I fight fire with dead leaves.<br /><br />Zeroinbarnotation, RMCM</font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-12 21:14:10
subject: <b>Logical?</b>
body:
I don't know how you could call this the logical answer. What logic have you evoked to come to this conclusion? He said it is intuitively obvious - he's a physicist, and many maths and physics textbooks will state that something is intuitively obvious, even though it is not.<br /><br />Besides that, most people do not rely on their intuition. Logic is required to prove who the murderer is, but intuition is required first and foremost to find the murderer in the first place.<br /><br />Of course, I still reckon that Asmodean wasn't killed in that scene. Whether he was taken to SG and tortured to death, or he was simply taken in hand by Moridin (death took him, and Moridin means death), and then used in some manner, I believe that he was alive after that scene.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Asmodean is alive and posing as Sammael!<br /><br />Sammael <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sammy.gif" border="0" /> is Sparticus.<br /><br />No, I'm Sparticus! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /> = <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />I'm Herid Fel Reborn!!!!! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shy.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-13 01:02:33
subject: <b>Death took him and not Moridin</b>
body:
Actually I thought that for a time after Moridin was first introduced. . by the way I'm replying to the comment above mine. . someone asked Jordan if thats what it meant when  it said &quot;and Death took &quot; and hes replay was &quot;oh heavens sake no&quot;  Besides. . Jordan said the killer was introduced before Asmos death and Moridin was in till later. . of course. . it could be a play on words since ol' Moridin and is the incarnated form of Ishy. . up to you people


created: 2005-05-13 11:05:11
subject: <b>*shrug*</b>
body:
T'were Slayer. Nit.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">_______________________________________<br /><br />Cecil Smithson rocks!!<br />____________________<br /><u> ~ Right you are, Ken</u> <br /><br /><font color="orange">.:KORY:.</font> <font color="blue">.:Joe:.</font></font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-13 11:43:44
subject: <b>Maybe</b>
body:
you failed as a reader <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" />with the darkone's own luck you can't lose <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" />so roll the dice and see <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" />s*@t a four ok best of three <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smackhead.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-13 13:52:47
subject: <b>Hmmm</b>
body:
I have always refuted that statement of his. It is not obvious to someone reading the series. I have read the series many times and the first 5 books provide no obvious clue about who wants to kill him. All the Forsaken want him dead , and that's all we can say.<br /><br />Graendal's evasive answers made me believe it was her. Everyone else was uncertain about Asmo but she always provided vague answers. She killed him.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">A One Power researcher<br />Defender of Lanfear<br />Grand Ninja-Nae'blis to be feared <br />Original Warder to Isa <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br />New Warder to Nossie <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />Toy to Seriana <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/winky.gif" border="0" /><br />Mystified by a Fan <br />Bonded Phelix - I was young, it happened so fast.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-13 21:16:22
subject: <b>Why we don't know</b>
body:
I still think he keeps it a secret to prove his point.  He claims in an interview that one of the principle themes of the books is that one cannot always know everything.  We see all kinds of evidence of this throughout the book, provided by rumors of the people being interpreted in different manners, assumptions of characters that turn out to be wrong.  Asmodean's death is a mystery to prove his point to us.  We cannot always know everything, even though we have a litany of clues availiable to us.  <br /><br />Do I think he failed?  No.  I think he succeeded on a level that not many people could.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">http://www.green-machine.info<br />Making Money Online</font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-13 22:00:15
subject: <b>^</b>
body:
I could accept that explanation if he hasn't repeatedly said that all the information was given amd that it should be &quot;intuitively obvious to the casual reader.&quot;<br /><br />If he wanted it to be easily deduced, he failed.  If he wanted it to remain a mystery, he lied.<br /><br />Either way, he screwed up in his handling of this issue.


created: 2005-05-13 23:39:38
subject: <b>Big Frog...</b>
body:
I'm sorry, but you're ignoring the intent of the author. He does not mean that it is &quot;intuitively obvious to the casual observer&quot;. He's being sarcastic.<br /><br />He's said many times before that his math teachers/professors used to answer questions like that and it bugged the hell out of him. He's being a prick, but a funny one. Not a liar, and not a failed author.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Warder to Be'lal's Girl<br />Wotmania Lottery<br /><br /><br /><br />&quot;Meh. A good relationship is like fireworks: loud, explosive, and liable to maim you if you hold on too long.&quot; ~ Sven, Questionable Content<br /><br />Bonded by Sidious. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-14 08:28:58
subject: <b>Actually, I think it is obvious when you get down to the basics...</b>
body:
...see the FAQ for details. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />The trouble is that people try to overanalyse it. Is that Jordan being a failed writer or us being failed readers? Talking to people who have just read the scene for the first time, they are usually quite clear on who they think might have killed him. The list is very short indeed for those readers. <br /><br />It's only when people read later books that they start to have second thoughts or forget about what their reasoning or frame of mind was when they read it for the first time. Then the list grows and we end up having to provide lengthy arguments AGAINST suspects that never entered anyone's minds at the time.<br /><br />Personally, I think there are only three viable suspects at that stage and two of them have subsequently been ruled out.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="blue"><img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /> <b>PROUDLY CELEBRATING 10 YEARS OF WOTMANIA!</b></font> <img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /><br /><br /><font color="purple"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <b>FAQ and WoT Admin</b></font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><font color="gray"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> <b>Part-time Philosopher of the Wheel</b> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /></font></font><p><a href="/wotmessageboard2showmessage.asp?MessageID=107993" target="_blank">New WoT quizzes!</a></p><p></p>


created: 2005-05-14 16:34:26
subject: <b>Big frog...</b>
body:
Sarcasm is not the same as lying. When a person uses sarcasm they either assume their audience is intelligent enough to comprehend the sarcasm, or they are trying to be rude and speak over the audience's head.<br /><br />RJ assumed we were intelligent enough to realize he was being sarcastic.<br /><br />You wouldn't happen to be related to Ishmael666 would you?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Warder to Be'lal's Girl<br />Wotmania Lottery<br /><br /><br /><br />&quot;Meh. A good relationship is like fireworks: loud, explosive, and liable to maim you if you hold on too long.&quot; ~ Sven, Questionable Content<br /><br />Bonded by Sidious. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-14 22:19:12
subject: <b>I blame this site for my Asmodean questionning.</b>
body:
When I read the books, Asmodean's murder wasn't a mystery to me. I mean, seriously, who of the ( living ) Forsaken had been continually poking and taunting Rand? I just figured &quot;Looky here, Sammael's done it again.&quot; And then I found this site and I figured that the FAQ was absolute. Even though I never figured Graendal at all ( she'd been barely more than mentioned at the time... ) and so I lived on, unhappy with the answer but certain that it was as simple as that.<br /><br />Then I found the Theory Post and quickly discarded the Graendal theory ( which never made sense to me anyway ) in favour of one of the better ( if somewhat out there ) theories: Columbo's Lanfear.<br /><br />Then through one question of the week about the Finnish, I learned they had no power to affect the world outside their own little homes. So although the theory was still <i>possible</i> - that Lanfear got out, killed Asmo and returned - I see no reason why she <i>would</i> have returned. And she was starting to sound as implausable a culprit as Slayer.<br /><br />So now I'm back to Sammael, and until I hear it from the keyboard of Robert Jordan himself, that's the way it'll stay.<br /><br /><i>na na na nana, I'm not listening...</i><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>War must be, while we defend our lives against a destroyer who would devour all; but I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend</i><br />~Faramir</font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-15 01:35:26
subject: <b>Phelix:</b>
body:
Justify it however you please.  The fact remains, when you're being sarcastic, you're not telling the truth.


created: 2005-05-15 07:26:02
subject: <b>What's all this about sarcasm?</b>
body:
I don't think he was being sarcastic. Jovial maybe, but not sarcastic...and he's stated more than once that he felt he had given enough clues for us to figure it out. You're overanalysing again. If you look at the interviews FAQ, you'll see plenty of comments about Asmodean.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="blue"><img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /> <b>PROUDLY CELEBRATING 10 YEARS OF WOTMANIA!</b></font> <img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /><br /><br /><font color="purple"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <b>FAQ and WoT Admin</b></font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><font color="gray"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> <b>Part-time Philosopher of the Wheel</b> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /></font></font><p><a href="/wotmessageboard2showmessage.asp?MessageID=107993" target="_blank">New WoT quizzes!</a></p><p></p>


created: 2005-05-15 20:09:07
subject: <b>I'm sorry Big Frog...</b>
body:
but just because you're being sarcastic does not mean you're lying. If you hold to the idea that it is, then you'd say hyperbole is lying too, or understatements, or allegories. Sarcasm is just a tool of language. <br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Warder to Be'lal's Girl<br />Wotmania Lottery<br /><br /><br /><br />&quot;Meh. A good relationship is like fireworks: loud, explosive, and liable to maim you if you hold on too long.&quot; ~ Sven, Questionable Content<br /><br />Bonded by Sidious. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-16 14:46:14
subject: <b>Sarcasm</b>
body:
Sarcasm: Noun: Remarks that mean the opposite of what they seem to say and are intended to mock or deride.<br /><br />If Robert Jordan is using sarcasm, then he isn't really lying because he is suggesting the correct answer. His intent, therefore, is to say that the killer's identity isn't obvious, which is not a lie.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;What do you mean, why's it got to be built?&quot; he said. &quot;It's a bypass. You've got to build bypasses.&quot; - Mr Prosser, head builder</font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-16 16:05:45
subject: <b>Thank you Demosthenes</b>
body:
See big frog? Sarcasm is not lying, neither is hyperbole, or allegory. They are not flat out stating the truth, but they are true in and of themselves.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Warder to Be'lal's Girl<br />Wotmania Lottery<br /><br /><br /><br />&quot;Meh. A good relationship is like fireworks: loud, explosive, and liable to maim you if you hold on too long.&quot; ~ Sven, Questionable Content<br /><br />Bonded by Sidious. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-17 00:03:45
subject: <b>...</b>
body:
Allegory is a form of symbolic story.  It is not related to your other examples, and you accomplished nothing by bringing it up.<br /><br />Hyperbole is a gross overexaggeration.  The statements made in hyperboles are quite obviously not true, and are therefore lies.<br /><br />As mentioned, sarcastic statements are blatantly untrue because they are meant to convey the opposite meaning.  The fact they are not true makes them lies.<br /><br />A statement that is not true is false.  A false statement is a lie.  It really is that simple.  You can spout all you like about intent, or the writer-reader relationship, or the subtleties of the English language.  I don't care.  Look at the literal meanings and see how right I am.<br /><br />I do have to give you some credit, Phelix, for the way you steered this thread off the subject with your utterly useless arguing about irrelevent definitions.  Let me bring this back to where it should be:<br /><br />RJ screwed up in his handling of the Asmodean issue, and 40% of wotmania agrees with me.


created: 2005-05-17 03:05:14
subject: <b>LYING?</b>
body:
I'm sorry ranagrande, but you have turned black and white what is far too grey an area for it.<br /><br />Suppose I said something that I do not know to be true or false. Suppose I make a statement about it, like 'God doesn't exist'. Am I lying? Suppose that God does exist, but I did not know that - am I lying? Suppose God doesn't exist, and again I didn't know - am I lying now?<br /><br />My point is that a lie is not necessarily saying something false. I would not be lying either way with the statement 'God doesn't exist', as I do not know, and am stating my beliefs.<br /><br />Similarly, if RJ feels that it should be intuitively obvious who the murderer is, then the fact that we disagree does not make him a liar.<br /><br />Also, is he lying if he says that &quot;when I say 'intuitively obvious', I mean completely un-obvious&quot;, and then says it is intuitively obvious? It is like in mathematics - if I say x=3, then when I say x+1, I mean 4.<br /><br />A lie is only a lie if it is intended as a lie. Otherwise, it falls into other categories, some of which are very useful tools.<br /><br />By the way, how is allegory not lying by your definition? It is a false story, meant to be symbolic, but it is still false, and therefore a lie. It is the same with hyperbole - symbolic, but still false. By most people's definitions, neither allegory nor hyperbole are lies - they are tools of language that make points. And that is what RJ did - make a point.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Asmodean is alive and posing as Sammael!<br /><br />Sammael <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sammy.gif" border="0" /> is Sparticus.<br /><br />No, I'm Sparticus! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /> = <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />I'm Herid Fel Reborn!!!!! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shy.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-17 14:31:01
subject: <b>Big frog... whoa.</b>
body:
<b>Allegory is a form of symbolic story. It is not related to your other examples, and you accomplished nothing by bringing it up.</b><br /><br />As pointed out above, Allegory, by being a symbolic story that may or may not be factual is itself not necessarily purely truth. I bring it up because it is much like Sarcasm and Hyperbole in that it is only useful if you're willing to accept while it may not be truth if taken properly it is Truth. Facts may be hard and cold, but Truth is an extremely fluid thing. There are very few Truths that do not change from person to person, and even my opinion that some Truths like that exist is debated.<br /><br /><b>Hyperbole is a gross overexaggeration. The statements made in hyperboles are quite obviously not true, and are therefore lies.</b><br /><br />No. Hyperboles are not &quot;lies&quot;. They are exagerations for effect, and when it is true hyperbole it is almost always obvious to the intended audience that the statement is hyperbole, and therefore not intended as &quot;fact&quot; or &quot;truth&quot;. <br /><br /><b>As mentioned, sarcastic statements are blatantly untrue because they are meant to convey the opposite meaning. The fact they are not true makes them lies.</b><br /><br />The word &quot;lie&quot; conveys the meaning to tell an un-truth with the intent to deceive, sarcasm is anything but. Sarcastic comments are not meant only to convey the opposite meaning, they are meant to convey it in a manner that makes it blatantly obvious to their intended audience and makes the true intent obvious as well.<br /><br /><b>A statement that is not true is false. A false statement is a lie. It really is that simple. You can spout all you like about intent, or the writer-reader relationship, or the subtleties of the English language. I don't care. Look at the literal meanings and see how right I am.</b><br /><br />Perhaps you should look at the literal meaning of a &quot;lie&quot;.<br /><br /><b><i>A lie is a statement made by someone who believes or suspects it to be false, in the expectation that the hearers may believe it. Thus a true statement may be a lie if the speaker thinks it is false. Fictions, though false, are not lies. Depending on definitions, a lie can be a genuine falsehood or a selective truth, a lie by omission, or even the truth if the intention is to deceive or to cause an action not in the listener's interests. To lie is to tell a lie. A person who tells a lie, and especially a person who habitually tells lies, is a liar.</i></b><br /><br />http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lie<br /><br /><b>I do have to give you some credit, Phelix, for the way you steered this thread off the subject with your utterly useless arguing about irrelevent definitions. Let me bring this back to where it should be:<br /><br />RJ screwed up in his handling of the Asmodean issue, and 40% of wotmania agrees with me. </b><br /><br />A) Thank you, I like to think of myself as an accomplished thread jacker, but this hasn't been useless arguing because of what I did. <br /><br />B) Definitions are never irrelevant because when you truly know what a word means you can understand how it was used.<br /><br />C) 40% of Wotmania does not agree with you. 80 people, and that doesn't count people who voted twice, or people who used alt accounts, or just voted while not logged in. Considering there are several hundred people registered with this site, somewhere near a thousand, if memory serves, your 80 votes mean very little.<br /><br />If you're so keen on bring the thread back where it &quot;should be&quot; fine. I'll give it a try. I think you've hopelessly twisted the meaning of what RJ said and are using a very warped view of truth and falsehoods. Your argument is baseless, truly. Let's look at it.<br /><br /><b>Robert Jordan claimed that the solution to the Asmodean murder mystery was &quot;intuitively obvious&quot; to anyone who read through the first five books. That statement is thoroughly disproven by the fact that the debate is still going strong, more than a decade later.<br /><br />Since it is obviously not obvious, although it was intended it to be so, there is only one conclusion that truly makes sense: Robert Jordan failed as a writer. </b><br /><br />So RJ said it was obvious to anyone who read through the first five books. Perhaps in his experience, the people he has given the book to read came up with the right answer each time. That would cause, for him in his experience, for the answer to the mystery to appear to be intuitively obvious.<br /><br />You use the fact that there is still debate as to who the murderer is to show that RJ was wrong in the obvious comment, yet perhaps we've all failed as readers. I remember when I first read the scene and I thought, oh he just got offed by one of the Forsaken, a moment later, after some thinking I had decided it was Graendal. That doesn't always make sense now that I've read further through it, but at the time it made great sense to me.<br /><br />Your last point: &quot;since it was obviously not obvious, though it was intended to be so...&quot; is flat out falsehood. You do not know RJ's intentions, have you spoken to him in a manner that would allow you to know beyond a shadow of a doubt that he had intimated to you the whole truth of what he was trying to accomplish? I doubt it, but if you have then you can make that kind of statement. Also, I know there are people who say it is obvious that __________ did it. To them, they know the answer and agree that it is obvious, there goes your point.<br /><br />The last bit gets me though. &quot;...there is only one conclusion that truly makes sense: Robert Jordan failed as a writer.&quot; Why is that the only conclusion that makes sense, the rest of your argument doesn't. Also, define the purpose of a writer. Some writers seek to entertain their audience, others seek to inform their audience. If the ultimate purpose of a writer is to pass down knowledge to other people there are many writers who fail in every work they produce. If the purpose is merely to entertain, than RJ has succeeded on a level far beyond what anyone expected of him or his works.<br /><br />The purpose of a writer is not to be perfect, nor is it to have your entire audience agree with you or what you produce. The job, yes job, of a commercial fiction writer is to sell books. The job of a fiction writer is to produce a few moments of escape from each person's personal reality. RJ has succeeded there.<br /><br />Your theory wasn't posted in the humor section, so I can only assume you meant this seriously, and if so what else can I say but you are wrong. Good luck on your next theory.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Warder to Be'lal's Girl<br />Wotmania Lottery<br /><br /><br /><br />&quot;Meh. A good relationship is like fireworks: loud, explosive, and liable to maim you if you hold on too long.&quot; ~ Sven, Questionable Content<br /><br />Bonded by Sidious. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-17 14:39:12
subject: <b>Lying</b>
body:
A lie is made with the deliberate intent to decieve. Sarcasm, on the other hand is used to mock and deride. When Robert Jordan said that the mystery is intuitively obvious, he would not directly lie, unless he wanted his readers to distrust his word. If he made the statement in sarcasm, he was not attempting to decieve, only to state the obvious, and mock us for a lack of common sense.<br />Yes, the mystery is still a great unsolved problem, but this does not mean that he failed as a writer, only that we lack the ability to tell who the murderer was, and we cannot make balant assumptions in frustration or ignorance.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;What do you mean, why's it got to be built?&quot; he said. &quot;It's a bypass. You've got to build bypasses.&quot; - Mr Prosser, head builder</font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-17 20:25:52
subject: <b>Speaking as an experienced Dungeon master...</b>
body:
What is obvious to the person who sets the scene is not always obvious to the one who enters it. As a writer, there is no doubt that every hint that RJ left in his books jumps up to him as if pointed out by a neon sign, therefore it seems obvious to him, how could the reader pass down such obvious clues? But we, as readers, see these clues like the other words in the page.<br /><br />Besides, I think it's obvious Sammael did it. Others think it's obvious that Graendal, Lanfear, even Slayer did it. Clearly, it is obvious to <i>some</i> people out there.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>War must be, while we defend our lives against a destroyer who would devour all; but I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend</i><br />~Faramir</font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-18 12:47:47
subject: <b>It's obvious!</b>
body:
RJ takes to long to write.  He leaves the rest of us looking for something to do and we complicate the obvious matters.<br /><br />Lanfear killed Asmodean!<br /><br />Columbo is hanging around!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-18 20:27:33
subject: <b>lets be honest here</b>
body:
I have to say I disagree. I have the feeling that if RJ ever comes out and says who the killer was and points out the clues a lot of people will be saying&quot;oh I see now&quot; plus there are people who have figured it out some time ago and lets be honest it wouldnt have been any fun if it was so obvious that everyone could figure it out just like that.


created: 2005-05-19 07:03:28
subject: <b>Appology.</b>
body:
I hope I did not offend. That wasn't my intention, and after re-reading my last comment, I came off more harshly than I had meant to. I do not retract anything I said, merely wish I had used more tact.<br /><br />Phelix<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Warder to Be'lal's Girl<br />Wotmania Lottery<br /><br /><br /><br />&quot;Meh. A good relationship is like fireworks: loud, explosive, and liable to maim you if you hold on too long.&quot; ~ Sven, Questionable Content<br /><br />Bonded by Sidious. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-19 23:35:38
subject: <b>oh, come on</b>
body:
one of the earliest comments said something to the effect of &quot;whats obvious to a man with an iq of 160 may not be obvious to the rest of the world.&quot; and this statement was, i believe, agreed with numerous times. so if you agree that rj's idea of obvious is something that we wouldnt figure out in a million years, how can you criticize him and say he failed? i dunno, maybe it all makes sense in your minds, but it just seems kinda stupid to me that you can say a man failed and yet admit how superior his thought processes are than yours.


created: 2005-05-22 01:56:02
subject: <b>RJ knows the answer</b>
body:
im sure it's obvious to RJ... i mean its like all those 'who done it' murder mysteries it all makes sense when the detective spells out for you who done it but theres just to many different clues for anyone to truely know.


created: 2005-05-23 02:45:02
subject: <b>To Moridin_2000</b>
body:
tottally agree, and could not have said it better myself.<br /><br /><br />As to a lie....<br /><br />A lie is a statement made by someone who believes or suspects it to be false, in the expectation that the hearers may believe it. Thus a true statement may be a lie if the speaker thinks it is false; and novels, though false, are not lies. Depending on definitions, a lie can be a genuine falsehood or a selective truth, a lie by omission, or even the truth if the intention is to deceive or to cause an action not in the listener's interests.<br /><br />As for sarcasm....<br /><br />A form of verbal irony, expressing sneering, personal disapproval in the guise of praise. (Oddly enough, sarcastic remarks are often used between friends, perhaps as a somewhat perverse demonstration of the strength of the bond--only a good friend could say this without hurting the other's feelings, or at least without excessively damaging the relationship, since feelings are often hurt in spite of a close relationship. If you drop your lunch tray and a stranger says, &quot;Well, that was really intelligent,&quot; that's sarcasm.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Journey to the Tiger Sea,<br />Where legends die and stories be,<br />Where royalty rise and fall,<br />And Wotmania rules them all.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-11-20 09:49:57
subject: <b>Um. No.</b>
body:
The fact is the answer actually *is* intuitively obvious, and you just weren't paying enough attention to see it. I did that the first time, and the second time I nearly kicked myself. It might be that the answer is too easy, as well. Most people I have seen trying to figure it out are waaaaay overanalyzing the problem.


created: 2005-12-05 16:47:06
subject: <b>casual readers</b>
body:
The key to RJ's comment is that it applies to &quot;casual readers&quot;, which is exactly 0% of people who come to this site.  A casual reader would not spend time on Wotmania or any other WoT page.  They're casual.  We are fanatical.  We think on it a lot.  Hence, the murder's identity is not obvious to _any_ of us.  If you think you know, good, but guess what?  You have reasons for it. Else you are thinking too much on it and cease to be a casual reader.  QED.<br /><br />-Ilka


created: 2006-01-30 22:29:44
subject: <b>Intuitively obvious to the most casual observer</b>
body:
I really LOVE that phrase! I sometime pull it out when i want to sound very pompous, and arrogant.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Life: Loathe it or ignore it, you can't like it.&quot; The Paranoid Android</font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-20 13:08:38
subject: <b>Ummm....</b>
body:
The thing is that healing is a Talent just like any others.  You can't say that just because somebody can heal a shattered leg like it was nothing and somebody else can only heal a bruise if they're using an Angreal, doesn't mean a thing.  Some of the most powerful female channelers (Cadsuane included) have mentioned that &quot;I don't have much Talent for it&quot;  That's all it is, a Talent, and some are better than others, nothing to do with power.  The dexterity part, that's arguable.  Imagine this, Thom can twirl knives between his fingers, as can Mat, Rand can't.  All three of them can juggle, but that doesn't mean that Rand is anymore less inclined to be dextrous, the other two just have a natural talent, which is why Mat picked up the sixth ball before Rand could.  He had a natural nack for that sort of thing.  Others can shred my rebuttal if they wish...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Toad D-Manz <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/crazy.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-20 13:27:52
subject: <b>Others could be related to Healing.</b>
body:
Of course, the other instances cited could just be things that are related to Healing.  It certainly would not surprise me if the Chair of Remorse used something very like Healing to work.    And making cuendillar might also be something similar to Healing, but on inanimate material.<br /><br />Of course, maybe not, as well.


created: 2005-05-20 13:58:20
subject: <b>What about Egwene?</b>
body:
If Healing dexterity and making Cuendillar are at all congruous, then wouldn't it stand to reason that Egwene would be a better healer, since she can make Cuendillar hundreds of times faster than anyone else?<br /><br />I don't think theres enough real fact to suggest that the yellows are more dextrous than any other ajah, nor do i think that RJ would write it that way.  If that were the case, then there would be over-arcing theme about the significance of the yellow ajah, and some clues as to what they symbolize that makes them distinct from other ajahs.


created: 2005-05-20 14:47:36
subject: <b>about egwene</b>
body:
maybe her ability is a true talent, while weaving dexterity is just a characteristic.  hmmm.  i didn't vote on this theory as i am still thinking about it.  maybe yes, maybe no.  but well written and thought-out regardless.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;It's ridiculous to suggest that a team could go through a season in our league without losing. It's comical, just comical.&quot; Alex Ferguson 27th September 2002<br /><br />gooner...red and white army...<br /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gimli.gif" border="0" /> my soulmate<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/clown.gif" border="0" /> my nemesis</font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-20 15:49:26
subject: <b>Actually</b>
body:
all good healers have dark hair and all blondes seem to be poor healers <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" />


created: 2005-05-20 15:58:11
subject: <b>Yeah</b>
body:
I'm sure PTH is right, and that's the secret to finding who has the Healing Talent.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">http://www.orkut.com/Profile.aspx?uid=4841668765074332965<br /><br />&quot;It's like God gave you the tools to build a house, and the blueprint is in you. Just remember to use rubber gloves.&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-20 16:17:01
subject: <b>I vote No</b>
body:
I think Healing is a Talent, mainly because it&#180;s not only about weaving the power but also intepreting the feedback they get.<br />As for you main Argument about half of the cuendillar making population being yellows, it might only prove that the yellow ajah is the one with the most experience at channeling (it seems that the cuendillar wave is very simple but might require some sort of fine tuning which the yellows could reproduce better being used to finely control their waves in order as not to kill their patients)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">It&#180;s sometimes really inconvienient to have a real life besides WOT.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-20 22:06:17
subject: <b>Well expressed. I agree that Healing requires dexterity,</b>
body:
but I think that other Talents would also do so - Cloud Dancing for instance.<br /><br />As far as making Cuendillar goes, it is not dexterity that is important. The crucial criterion is <i>strength in earth</i> as stated in COT, Secrets and foreshadowed in ACOS when Egwene wanted all her channellers tested for affinity with metals and ores (= earth).<br /><br />The interesting question is why the Yellow Ajah has a greater percentage of those strong in earth, when they use Spirit, Water and Air most often. This could be a foreshadowing of ability to use Nynaeve's all powers Healing, but Nynaeve herself hasn't been tested yet.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> Linda Sedai <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Proud member of the Embroiderer's Guild of the White Tower<br /><br /><b><font color="red">FAQ admin</font></b> </font>'cos the FAQ is where it's at.<br /><br /><b>Currently working on:</b> my 70th FAQ<p><a href="http://13depository.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">The thirteenth depository : A Wheel of Time blog</a></p><p></p>


created: 2005-05-20 22:37:34
subject: <b>Well expressed. I agree that Healing requires dexterity,</b>
body:
but I think that other Talents would also do so - Cloud Dancing for instance.<br /><br />As far as making Cuendillar goes, it is not dexterity that is important. The crucial criterion is strength in earth as stated in COT, Secrets and foreshadowed in ACOS when Egwene wanted all her channellers tested for affinity with metals and ores (= earth). This is why Egwene, who has a weak Talent for Healing can make Cuendillar most easily. She has remarkable strength in earth as the Seanchan discovered.<br /><br />The interesting question is why the Yellow Ajah has a greater percentage of those strong in earth, when they use Spirit, Water and Air most often. This could be a foreshadowing of ability to use Nynaeve's all powers Healing, but Nynaeve herself hasn't been tested yet<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> Linda Sedai <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Proud member of the Embroiderer's Guild of the White Tower<br /><br /><b><font color="red">FAQ admin</font></b> </font>'cos the FAQ is where it's at.<br /><br /><b>Currently working on:</b> my 70th FAQ<p><a href="http://13depository.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">The thirteenth depository : A Wheel of Time blog</a></p><p></p>


created: 2005-05-20 23:39:06
subject: <b>Linda_Sedai beat me to it.</b>
body:
Linda Sedai says quite correctly that the ability to make cuendillar depends mainly with strength with Earth and not dexterity.<br /><br />The rest of the arguments in the post are similarly flawed.<br /><br />It could easily be interpreted that Doesine was the only one who was trained at using the Chair of Remorse and as was stated above it could be something related at healing.<br /><br />Second, the only examples of complicated Nynaeve weaves are healing weaves.  It is quite likely that the ability to weave complex Healing weaves is a manifestation of the talent and not the cause of it.<br /><br />Third, there is no indication anywhere in the series that the yellows feel superior in their weaving.<br /><br />Fourth, there are numerous other examples of very complex weaves that aren't healing done by non-healers.  Elayne's description of the weaves used to bond Rand is one prominent example.<br /><br />There are too many things wrong with this hypothesis.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">RabidWombat<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> Let the Lord of Rambling Thoughts rule <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> Proud owner of a 2 star rating! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /> Someone stole all my cookies <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-21 12:06:49
subject: <b>Linda and RW said it well.</b>
body:
Those who use all 5 powers (including Earth) are the best Healers; therefore the males (who are strong in Earth) should be equally fine Healers, if not superior to women who are weaker in Earth.<br /><br />Making cuendillar is dependent on strength in Earth, as witness Egwene, the best, and others in descending strength.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-21 15:33:01
subject: <b>I like your theory on the whole...</b>
body:
But I seem to remember somewhere in the books (Asmodean?) where it stated that men were better healers than women. This is mostly attributed with the strength in Earth and Fire, which I assume are the intricate parts of Healing that standard Aes Sedai Healing ignores.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;The rich get richer till the poor get educated.&quot;<br />-Sage Francis</font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-21 21:04:22
subject: <b>half way agree.</b>
body:
I think it may be like the difference between sowing and weaving in the real world. Both require a degree of dexterity, with weaving making patters that will eventually lead to something wonderful when its done, going in and out of the cloth, with sowing doing the straitest stitches, most evenly done, and with the strongest last. In some way those that weave are more dexterious, but in other ways those that sow are. I sow, my sister weaves. She can't sow very well, and I really suck at weaving, but if you asked a guy he would probebly not understand, thinking there the same thing, only with the weaving being longer stiches. Its possible that those who can heal are better at chanelling using, say, the weaving kind of chanelling, while those who are better at, say, blowing things up and finding metel, like Egwen is, and yes I know I spelled her name wrong, are better at using the stitch kind of chanelling. Not nessisarilly stronger, but deffinatly different.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Journey to the Tiger Sea,<br />Where legends die and stories be,<br />Where royalty rise and fall,<br />And Wotmania rules them all.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-22 19:09:02
subject: <b>Nynaeve has no dexterity</b>
body:
Nynaeve may be the most talented healer the Aes Sedai have at the moment, though I believe this will change as the Kin join them and other Aes Sedai learn the complex healing weaves, but it is stated a number of different ways that she is hopeless at almost everything thing else. Cadsuane says: &quot;Her skill at Healing was miraculous; Her skill with almost anything else, dismal&quot;<br />When she heals Siuan and Leane the Yellows all criticise her weeaves by saying things like &quot;She used earth as though she were trying to bore a hole through stone..... A smoother touch would be better&quot;.  Nynaeve may be a great Healer but that seems to be her only strength/talent. (So far?)


created: 2005-05-23 02:30:04
subject: <b>to beca</b>
body:
Its true thet that seems to be one of her only real talents so far, but then we also have to remember some facts about her. <br /><br />1. She was never a novice. <br />2. Most wilders have some cool little talent they know, and then they come to teh white tower and are tought much more by the sisters in their novice years. She never was a novice, so has never really gotten that training.<br />3. Most accepted still are able to learn more things then they knew as novices, in many different fields. They take their novice training and try to learn everything.<br />4. She was accepted for a long time, though short according to the tower, but most of that was spent away from the tower. Just as she never really got any novice training, she also really never got any accepted training. Its like handing someone a needle and saying, here, make me a shirt. They might weedle out by themselves how to cut the fabric, thread the needle, shape the shirt, but the result will most likely still be something you don't really want to look at, much less wear. I think in the futer, if she is able to learn other things, she will prove to be good at other things as well as healing. She just has not been given a real chance to learn any of them.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Journey to the Tiger Sea,<br />Where legends die and stories be,<br />Where royalty rise and fall,<br />And Wotmania rules them all.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-24 00:28:14
subject: <b>Nynaeve's Dexterity</b>
body:
I agree that Nynaeve's lack of novice training didn't help her learn everything the other novices were taught, and but  her ignorance of many Aes Sedai weaves is a separate problem, that I believe was caused by her lack of interest in learning. She did listen to the Yellows, but said most of the rest was useless rubbish most of the time. (She did have some of what you might call novice training on the journey to the tower from Fal Dara wth the Aes Sedai)  Dexeterity is something different than knowledge of the weaves, though. I would call dexterity the ability to weave the flows intricately or delicately. Like the difference between tying a knot in a thick piece of rope a couple of times and sewing fine embroidery.  To me, it seemed the Aes Sedai were not accusing her of being untrained, but simply of being clumsy or heavy-handed in her weavings. And the fact that they accused her of this while she was demonstrating something that is part of her greatest talent only confirms to me that Nynaeve's  lack of dexterity is caused by her lack of talent not lack of training.


created: 2005-05-24 14:21:49
subject: <b>To beca</b>
body:
How do you think people go from trying notts to fine embroidery? Practice, and study. But besides that, one reason her weaves may seem clumsy to them is because for the msot part their HER weaves. No one taught them to her, because yes she really didn't have any novice training. Novice training is soposed to take YEARS, not weeks. But even without that,<br /><br />(Qote) Some sisters claimed they could even tell which sister had been tought by which other sister as a novice, just from the movements they used while chanelling. (End Qote one of the aiel wisewoman talking to cadsuene.) <br /><br />This ,in my view, shows that novice training is not simply seeing the way to weave, but the pattern and things to do. Possibly the sisters feel her weaves look clumsy because they are weaves that she has had to piece togeather, having not been taught by anyone.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Journey to the Tiger Sea,<br />Where legends die and stories be,<br />Where royalty rise and fall,<br />And Wotmania rules them all.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-24 14:35:01
subject: <b>Keen Observation of the Obvious ......</b>
body:
Of course the yellows would have better dexterity for making complex weaves! If you go into a University biology class and wonder why people there have so much knowledge about biology, well, I hate to break it to you, but it's because they have skill in that area naturally.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;What do you mean, why's it got to be built?&quot; he said. &quot;It's a bypass. You've got to build bypasses.&quot; - Mr Prosser, head builder</font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-24 23:07:18
subject: <b>great</b>
body:
stop saying dexterity<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">YodasFather<br /><br />There are only 10 types of people in the world - those who understand binary, and those who don't.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-26 00:31:00
subject: <b>Nynaeve and novices learn Control</b>
body:
The point of novice training seems to be to learn to control their channelling safely.  Every novice class mentioned in the series seems to be learning to juggle balls of Fire or make colors with Fire, nothing that takes more than strength or Control. Everything else the girls learn is doing chores, reading, writing, chores, arithmetic, Old Tongue, and chores.  The more complex weaves seem to be taught to Accepted once they have achieved the neccesary control.  Nynaeve did learn Control before she reached the Tower. (She held the Amrylin against the wall).To put Nynaeve's skill level in perspective you need to compare her  with others who have received the equivalent amount of training.<br />Nynaeve- a wilder, had a wilder's trick but never knew of it before she was told, learnt Control on journey to Tar valon, several months Accepted's training (broken up over 2 years) , a few months wih Moghedien, a few lessons with Cadsuane.<br />Egwene- a couple of months novice training, a few weeks to a couple of months damane's training, about a week Accepted's training, studied under the Wise Ones and would have picked up on what she saw but was not specifically trained to channel by them, a few weeks limited time with Moghedien. <br />Elayne- a few months of novice training, a few months as Accepted, a few months with Moghedien<br />Aviendha- 1/2 a year's apprentice training, limited by duties with Rand.<br />Rand- a wilder, learnt everything on his own, a few months with Asmodean, a few months with Lews Therin's sometimes help, picked up whatever while fighting various Forsaken, a few tricks from Taim.<br />Rand is actually closest Nynaeve in the way he learnt, but he can duplicate a gateway's position (nearly impossible to achieve according to Egwene) form and make-up weaves on the spot (the ONLY time Nynaeve did this was the balefire she has since forgotten) the other weaves she worked out took time to discover and they were only Healing weaves and how to remove the a'dam, Rand and Rand was trying to rule several nations, work out women and survive various AesSedai, Forsaken and Nobles plots and rebellions at the same time.<br />Most importantly to this argument though, is that NO other character has been criticised for clumsy weaves( in TGH, LoC&amp; WH), not other wilders and not even those with LESS training than Nynaeve.<br />


created: 2005-05-28 11:52:28
subject: <b>to beca</b>
body:
Nynaeve was critized for her Healing weaves for the simple reason that the Yellows hadn`t found out for themselves, from centuries of Healing, that the 5 Powers work best.<br /><br />Nynaeve is a very quick study, needing only one look to know how any weave is done.<br /><br />Cadsuane`s criticism was referring to her lack of training in what the AS teach to Novices and Accepteds. Because of THAT, Nynaeve is woefully lacking.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2006-05-07 02:20:29
subject: <b>Elayne making ter'angreal</b>
body:
I remember that Elayne can make ter'angreal which I'm sure would take significant dexterity to make (or maybe its a talent, but that's another theory) but also she only heal a bruise and that's about it when it comes to healing, so isn't that a bit of a contradiction.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Proud Libertarian<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> You spin me right round baby right round <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br />The following sentence is true. The preceding sentence is false.<br />Truly great madness cannot be achieved without significant intelligence.<br />-Henrik Tikkanen</font><p></p>


created: 2006-09-27 15:27:24
subject: <b>Yellows ans dexterity</b>
body:
I think it seems sort of obivious that yellows would need higher dexterity to heal than most, Nyneave has fairly high dexterity becuase when Nyneave is giving lessons to the Sea Folk she is using 8 weaves, most sisters cannot hold two weaves. As for Elayne's abiltiy for making ter'greal and not being able to heal, she has high dexterity but I dont think that it is as high as Nyneave's. But the Yellows have to have control of there weaves, epsecaily in Dleving.


created: 2008-05-26 16:37:25
subject: <b>No</b>
body:
I totallt disagree. The Yellows are better at Healing - no more. There are plenty of other weaves that are really complex. Compulsion is a very intricate weave, yet Grandael, who is very talented at that, is never mentioned as being a good Healer. Manipulating the weather is also very complicated weave, at least the way Windfinders do it, and Elayne realized that she could do it, too, when they were on their way to Tanchico. But she cannot Heal much at all. Likewise, Semirhage is mentioned as being lousy at controlling the weather, from Asmodean. If it all came down to deftness in weaving, she should be good at that, too.<br /><br />Making ter'angreal is described as extremely complicated. We don't see the weaves for it, but Elayne describes it as intricate work, and she can't Heal much. <br /><br />If it all came down to deftness in weaving, the Yellow would be the best at everything, because most Major Talents use complicated weaves at high levels.


created: 2005-05-20 13:34:37
subject:
<b>Very nice theory <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /></b>

body:
I really liked it, especially how you ruled out the Forsakens. The second evidence is good, but the third is fantastic. I have never thought of that before.<br /><br />Before I read this theory I was not sure who killed Sahra Covenry, if it was a Forsaken or BA. Now I believe Alviarin is the one.


created: 2005-05-20 13:38:09
subject: <b>Semirhage ?</b>
body:
The technique sounds like Semirhage.<br /><br />But if NOT her, then Alviarin is the next most likely.


created: 2005-05-20 15:29:26
subject: <b>Good theory</b>
body:
Once again , very well presented Etzel.<br /><br />I voted yes because it is likely that you are correct. However , I must tell you that Elaida has always been my chief suspect and you never addressed her as the culprit. Perhaps you thought it obvious that she could perform such a terrible crime because of the three Oaths.<br /><br />Elaida promised to ferret out every bit of information from Siuan after she deposed her. Siuan later said that she was tortured severely and we have already seen how efficient Elaida can be with torture in NS when she hurt Moiraine and Siuan.<br /><br />I don't find it unlikely at all that Elaida smelled a rat regarding Siuan Sanche and decided it was time to depose her. She would do anything to obtain her objectives. We know how ambitious she was. I don't believe it was beyond her scope to torture an Accepted/Novice to death using the Power. As we know , bypassing the Oaths is easy if you can rationalise it to yourself.<br /><br />Nothing is more important to Elaida than the old Tower where power was absolute. The thought of an Amyrlin aiding a man who could channel , could certainly drive a Red like Elaida to homicidal levels.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">A One Power researcher<br />Defender of Lanfear<br />Grand Ninja-Nae'blis to be feared <br />Original Warder to Isa <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br />New Warder to Nossie <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />Toy to Seriana <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/winky.gif" border="0" /><br />Mystified by a Fan <br />Bonded Phelix - I was young, it happened so fast.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-20 15:32:38
subject: <b>I used to think that too.</b>
body:
But DomA ripped my theory apart, and now I believe it was Galina.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>War must be, while we defend our lives against a destroyer who would devour all; but I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend</i><br />~Faramir</font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-20 16:04:10
subject: <b>Maybe...</b>
body:
Maybe it was Chesmal, the Black Ajah who likes torturing. One of the thirteen who left the Tower later.<br /><br />Or if it was before, I'm wrong, and it was Alviarin. Not sure<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">http://www.orkut.com/Profile.aspx?uid=4841668765074332965<br /><br />&quot;It's like God gave you the tools to build a house, and the blueprint is in you. Just remember to use rubber gloves.&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-20 16:27:26
subject: <b>I agree it was BA....But not Alviarin</b>
body:
Alviarin is the Head of the BA.  I do not think she would have done the dirty work unless she was ordered to by Messanna.  <br />This murder happened prior to Siuane getting nabbed.  So I always assumed that Alviarin ordered another member of the BA to go and get the information and remove the evidence.<br />Since Alviarin was working with Eladia to remove Siuane, and she knows that Galina is black.  I assumed she got that one Red/Black sister that speaks with Galina (on thier way to Cairhien to capture Rand), I'm sorry I forgot her name, but I think she was the one who escaped the Aeil.


created: 2005-05-20 17:58:28
subject: <b>I Disagree</b>
body:
I like this theory....very well organized and i like the evidence and such. But i have always thought it was Liandrin. I don't know why but this seems just the thing she would do.<br /><br />~Mat<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Focus on the here and now for it is here that you must live, and now that you must make your decisions. Make your decisions wisely. Do not choose with malice or hate for the negative motives lead to negative consequences and you can only choose once.<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-20 18:14:00
subject: <b>Alvairin</b>
body:
or however you spell her name. I have always assumed it was her and this proves it. I had a feeling that jordan had put so much intrigue and suspicion in the books so far that he kinda made this one as a hiding in plain sight answer. One thing that bothers me though, is the mud on the skirt. Alvairin could not care about the mud but also a brown might and probably wouldn't notice it as well....hmmm *lip tappin*<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rand.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perrin.gif" border="0" /><br />I don't fail. I succeed in finding what doesn't work. <br /><br /><font color="00ff33">Official Sponsor of the Melindhra Fan Club</font></font><p><a href="http://www.illwillpress.com" target="_blank">Feel the Squirley Wrath!!!!</a></p><p></p>


created: 2005-05-20 20:17:31
subject: <b>I agree with the theory, to Sidious</b>
body:
<font size="-1"><b>Elaida promised to ferret out every bit of information from Siuan after she deposed her. Siuan later said that she was tortured severely and we have already seen how efficient Elaida can be with torture in NS when she hurt Moiraine and Siuan.</b></font><br /><br />I believe it was Alviarin that tortured Siuan, I don't think it was explicitly stated but when her torture was mentioned it was also stated that Alviarin was adept at &quot;questioning&quot;.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">In no particular order:<br /><br />Rav<br />Belal's Girl<br />Lady Isa<br />Phil Reborn<br /><br />It was nice.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-21 04:05:10
subject: <b>To Quoth</b>
body:
I'm not sure if we have any proof either way. We know that Galina was in charge of the circle which stilled Siuan but we don't know whether it was the same circle which put her to the question.<br /><br />Elaida promised to make Siuan tell her every word. Whether she meant to get the answers directly or by proxy is debatable.<br /><br />Her saidistic side is as prominent as anyone we have seen in the series so far. Her serene torture of Moiraine and Siuan in NS was some evidence of this. She also has no problem breaking Tower law when it comes to men who can channel. She ordered all the ash'aman hanged on the spot which is a serious transgression according to the law.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">A One Power researcher<br />Defender of Lanfear<br />Grand Ninja-Nae'blis to be feared <br />Original Warder to Isa <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br />New Warder to Nossie <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />Toy to Seriana <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/winky.gif" border="0" /><br />Mystified by a Fan <br />Bonded Phelix - I was young, it happened so fast.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-21 09:37:16
subject: <b>Re</b>
body:
I think that purpose of that law was to protect Dragon Reborn. So now when AS know about Rand that law has became obsolete especially when Elaida thought that she would capture him.


created: 2005-05-21 11:44:02
subject: <b>I think yoy proved your case, Etzel.</b>
body:
Especially with comparison with Mesaana`s technique.<br /><br />A side note: IMO, the red mud left in WT Library basement by Alviarin will eventually lead to her un-masking by the Sea Folk librarians. Alviarin`s thought that noone would know it came from Tremalking screams of foreshadowing!<br /><br />Sidious: While Elaida is a very repulsive character, she is not a BA, so torturing Sahra unto death could have been inadvertant, but she could not have murdered the farm owner.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-21 18:27:05
subject: <b>Maybe, but</b>
body:
I had always thought that it was Chesmal also, especially after Liandrin's thoughts about Chesmal killing with the power.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sister to Nossy<br />Shot swapper with a_fan <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br />Bonded to Phil Reborn and Sidious<br />&quot;Mommies are like wizards&quot; ~ CVH <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br />The fact that I don't agree with you in no way means I didn't understand you.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-21 21:07:32
subject: <b>The white sister.</b>
body:
In one of the books, either winters heart or path of daggers, it says that Alvrien? the white sister, sorry I'm a terrible speller, went away for a while, and Elida was glad to have her gone, but then she came back. IT flips from a scene where Alv's in the tower, and then the girl dies, and the next scene with her is her return. It goes alone with your idea, but I thought I might mention it.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Journey to the Tiger Sea,<br />Where legends die and stories be,<br />Where royalty rise and fall,<br />And Wotmania rules them all.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-22 01:29:27
subject: <b>I agree, though not for exactly the same reasons.</b>
body:
I don't think it's valid to say that a certain character isn't a Forsaken because they don't use Compulsion (some Forsaken just aren't good at Compulsion, by all accounts, and many have a track record of resorting to torture and murder even when more elegant methods are available).  I also don't think the fact that the woman hid her face indicates much, because who's to say she took for granted the fact that she would leave no witnesses?  I mean, what if someone escaped?  What if someone else was watching and she failed to spot them?<br />HOWEVER, I absolutely agree that it wasn't one of the Forsaken, because A) Mesaana doesn't do her own dirty work, and B) no Forsaken other than Mesaana would know or care about Sahra Covenry.<br />I also agree that it was probably Alviarin, simply because she was in the best position of any BA to know about Sahra, and because--as you said--the mystery Sister's interrogation method sounds a like that of Alviarin's mistress.


created: 2005-05-22 01:37:50
subject: <b>Also</b>
body:
Liandrin and Chesmal are not viable suspect, folks.  They were both in (or en route to) Tanchico when Sahra was killed.  Same goes for Temaile and anyone else in that group.


created: 2005-05-22 02:50:53
subject: <b>To Jofraz</b>
body:
I'm not trying to put forward a desperate argument , but there is actually no proof that the farm owner is dead. Elaida may have clubbed her on the head and made her unconscious.<br /><br />The novice merely states that the farm is unusually silent and that the farm owner was usually audible.<br /><br />I am also not sure if it was an accident for Elaida to torture the novice to death. Even Moiraine has shown that she is willing to do murder , and Elaida is far harder woman than her.<br /><br />Despite Etzel's good argument which I'm sure is correct , I still devote myself to Elaida as the chief suspect. Her ambition to seize the Amyrlin Seat had no boundaries as we have seen ... breaking Tower Law , making a palace , demoting Aes Sedai to Accepted , birching sisters for small crimes ... murder?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">A One Power researcher<br />Defender of Lanfear<br />Grand Ninja-Nae'blis to be feared <br />Original Warder to Isa <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br />New Warder to Nossie <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />Toy to Seriana <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/winky.gif" border="0" /><br />Mystified by a Fan <br />Bonded Phelix - I was young, it happened so fast.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-22 04:07:55
subject: <b>sidious....</b>
body:
In &quot;The Truth of a Viewing&quot; from TSR, (Just before Elaida and her entourage storms in), Siuan is in her study looking at the report about Sahra vanishing, and it says the owner of the farm has too. <br /><br />Not concrete evidence that she is dead, but I think we are led to believe that she is.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-22 16:50:40
subject: <b>to sidious</b>
body:
No Aes Sedia who is not a black sister can murder. Elida may be many things, but not a black sister. There have been many indications given that she is not a black sister, just a really rude snob who has very bad ideas that could have as damedging effects. She still could not have done the murder.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Journey to the Tiger Sea,<br />Where legends die and stories be,<br />Where royalty rise and fall,<br />And Wotmania rules them all.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-22 17:27:15
subject: <b>To Bengal Meara</b>
body:
I don't agree at all. Essentially , this is the crux of my argument - that the list has been narrowed down to darkfriends.<br /><br />Moiraine has said she would rather kill Mat , Rand and Perrin rather than let the Shadow have them. How could she do this if she was bound by the Oaths?<br /><br />Elaida instructed the sisters attacking the Black Tower to hang the men on site when they captured them. Blatant murder in all those cases. Even if they merely tied a rope and lifted the man to hang him , that would circumvent the Oaths. But in that case it also proves that you can do murder if you use the right ways.<br /><br />Moiraine and Siuan embraced saidar in TGH when Verin discovered their secret about Rand. What could they have done to her if they were truly bound by the Oaths?<br /><br />We know that Elaida has tortured people in the Tower before e.g. Siuan and Moiraine. If she carries on with the torture until they die then there will be no violation of the Oaths.<br /><br />My only argument for this theory actually is that the list CANNOT be limited to darkfriends.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">A One Power researcher<br />Defender of Lanfear<br />Grand Ninja-Nae'blis to be feared <br />Original Warder to Isa <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br />New Warder to Nossie <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />Toy to Seriana <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/winky.gif" border="0" /><br />Mystified by a Fan <br />Bonded Phelix - I was young, it happened so fast.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-23 02:21:49
subject: <b>To sidious</b>
body:
Your right about the list, but I don't think teh indications prove Elida Black Ajah. The oaths say that no sister can kill, unless attacked, but obviously there is a loop hole for men who can channel, overwise you would have to assume that every sister who ever caught a man was black ajah. Likely the loop hole is that no man who noticed the sisters and could channel would not attack. Its like the lying, they get around it and twist loop holes in and out of it. Things would be a lot easier for the keeper if Elida was black Ajah, because not only has the keeper been mentioned as black, but also as being ont he concil. I think all the signs prove Elida to be a horrible person, but not a dark friend.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Journey to the Tiger Sea,<br />Where legends die and stories be,<br />Where royalty rise and fall,<br />And Wotmania rules them all.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-23 03:55:16
subject: <b>Bengal Meara, you're wrong.</b>
body:
The oaths are:<br /><br />To say no word that is not true (or untrue).<br /><br />To make no weapon for one man to kill another.<br /><br />and<br /><br />To not use the Power as a weapon except in the last defense of the sister's life, the life of her warder, or the life of another sister or against shadowspawn.<br /><br /><br /><br />There is nothing in any of that about not killing with the Power. As long as the sister can convince herself she is not using the Power as a weapon, she can kill all she wants. A very loose definition of shadowspawn would let a sister kill anyone she thought was a darkfriend. That's why they're able to use it as a weapon against False Dragons and male channelers. The men either A- are Darkfriends, because they channel tainted Saidin (see the White Tower's trial procedures), or B- are madmen who will endanger the lives of all those present (the sisters just have to make sure they're in his path).<br /><br />If Elaida was able to convince herself that Sahra Covenry was lying to her about what she knew, or even made some indication that she might be a darkfriend, Elaida could have convinced herself to kill the girl. It would take a large leap of logic, but we've seen that Elaida can make <i>torture</i> line up with the Oaths.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Warder to Be'lal's Girl<br />Wotmania Lottery<br /><br /><br /><br />&quot;Meh. A good relationship is like fireworks: loud, explosive, and liable to maim you if you hold on too long.&quot; ~ Sven, Questionable Content<br /><br />Bonded by Sidious. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-23 05:36:52
subject: <b>Bengal Meara</b>
body:
as said above AS can kill, but not using the OP unless the conditions doesn't violate the oaths. Killing someone with a knife or an arrow or poison etc are possible.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Founding member of the ASI</b><br /><br /><b>TP ADMIN</b><br /><br /><b>Simon</b><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-23 10:22:46
subject: <b>I agree Etzel...</b>
body:
I have always believed that this was Alvairin's work. I think there are a couple important points of evidence that you left out. As M2K mentioned - Alvairin is referenced by Siuan as being quite good at 'questioning' - which of course is the AS euphanism for torture or at least hard interrogation. Also, at some point close to this time (I don't recall if it is just before or after the murder), there is the scene where Elaida and Alvairin are speaking. This scene indicates to me that it is one of these two - and we all agree that Elaida is not BA, and the death of Sahra and the owner of the farm is just not consistent with AS values. Yes, AS can kill if they are not BA, but this act was clearly an act of the BA.<br /><br />As others have mentioned - any of Liandrin's 13 are not viable suspects. They had no way of travelling to the site of the murder. Galina is a possibility, but I just don't think the connection is there.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Need a book to read - check out my blog for ideas.</font><p><a href="http://nethspace.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">Neth Space</a></p><p></p>


created: 2005-05-23 12:50:06
subject: <b>Light</b>
body:
That is a good point about the fact that they have vanished<br /><br />It would be just like Jordan to lead you down a path like that only to yank the rug out from under you.<br /><br />We have no confimation of death only absense from the farm.<br /><br />Funny thing that. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">See that Seagull in the sky Im just glad cows dont fly.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-23 15:03:38
subject: <b>true but....</b>
body:
(Qote)If Elaida was able to convince herself that Sahra Covenry was lying to her about what she knew, or even made some indication that she might be a darkfriend, Elaida could have convinced herself to kill the girl. It would take a large leap of logic, but we've seen that Elaida can make torture line up with the Oaths. (end qote)<br /><br />Thats true, my point wasn't that the oaths worked wonders, but that mentally you can get around them. Like by lying by omision. Elida has never done anything that is an out right lie. She was able to torcher because the one being torchered was, to her view, takeing actions that would lead to a male who can chanell, who has claimed to be the draggon, associating with the tower. This put her in the same field as dark friends. Also in, I think, Path of daggers, that or winters heart, we hear from the sisters that hold the black sister that there are rules that must be fallowed even when torchering a sister known to be a dark friend. <br /><br />It makes no sence for Elida to have killed the girl, because if she felt the girl had lied she could have taken her back to the tower when she wanted. The girl ended up knowing nothing, so there was no reason to kill her in any way.....<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Journey to the Tiger Sea,<br />Where legends die and stories be,<br />Where royalty rise and fall,<br />And Wotmania rules them all.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-23 16:17:46
subject: <b>Bengal Meara</b>
body:
If that was your point, you hid it well. You original post, which I responded to, had nothing to do with getting around the oaths, rather you said that no Aes Sedai could kill, because of the three oaths unless they were black ajah. Then you went on to say that Elaida was a bad person, possibly, but not a darkfriend. No where did you mention getting around the oaths, except you did mention that lying by omission was an acceptable way to get around the oath against speaking no word that is not true.<br /><br />As for it not making sense... Elaida tends to make things make sense to herself. She justified torturing Siuan and Moiraine in NS so the Tower could be stronger. If she felt the girl would hurt the Tower, and could convince herself that the girl was lying to her it is easy to see how Elaida could take torture beyond the acceptable limit.<br /><br />(Also, on a picky side note, it is spelled <i>torture</i> not <b>torcher</b>. One means to cause physical harm in a meticulous fashion on another person usually to gain information and the other is a person who lights torches. A torcher versus a torture session.)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Warder to Be'lal's Girl<br />Wotmania Lottery<br /><br /><br /><br />&quot;Meh. A good relationship is like fireworks: loud, explosive, and liable to maim you if you hold on too long.&quot; ~ Sven, Questionable Content<br /><br />Bonded by Sidious. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-23 20:50:33
subject: <b>Re: caychris</b>
body:
Well, there is one more little bit to throw in the mix. It's the last sentence of the paragraph that ends the chapter:<br />&quot;She did not stop screaming for a long time, and when the Aes Sedai left there was not a sound around the farmhouse except for the chickens, not even breathing.&quot;<br /><br />This speaks against sidious's claim that the woman was merely knocked unconscious.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-24 03:33:37
subject: <b>She could have been taken elsewhere.</b>
body:
If it were someone with access to Traveling, the farm owner could have been sent to feed a trolloc, or without Traveling, she could have been run off her farm.<br /><br />Not saying I agree with that... just that the possibility remains.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Warder to Be'lal's Girl<br />Wotmania Lottery<br /><br /><br /><br />&quot;Meh. A good relationship is like fireworks: loud, explosive, and liable to maim you if you hold on too long.&quot; ~ Sven, Questionable Content<br /><br />Bonded by Sidious. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-24 07:05:02
subject: <b>Ways around the oath</b>
body:
Moiraine didn't have to find difficult ways to get around the Oaths when she threatened to kill the three boys. She could have used poison or an non-OP weapon, or even more simple, she could have ordered Lan. <br />As to the Ashaman Elaida intended to kill, we know from Rands abduction that AS can use the OP to punish, but more likely is that Elaida intended them to simply keep whatever channelers there were shielded and have their warders do the actual executions.


created: 2005-05-24 11:50:24
subject: <b>I think you need to look at the scene logically....</b>
body:
The WT sends these novices to do penance on these farms pretty regularly. Someone must be sent to fetch them back as well. So the appearance of an Aes Sedai to do this would not be out-of-the-ordinary, and the farm owner wouldn't even question it when one came to collect the girl.<br /><br />However, in this case, the &quot;Aes Sedai&quot; didn't come and take the girl, but instead tortures her to death at the farm. The  thought occurs to me that if this &quot;Aes Sedai&quot; wanted to avoid any issues of being found out about her real intention, all she would have had to do was take the girl with her and torture her elsewhere. If the farm owner were asked about the novice later, she would then just say that an Aes Sedai came and took her, and probably wouldn't be able to give more than a bare-bones description of her.<br /><br />Instead, Sahra has a pov where she sees mistress Elwards' laundry basket lying on its side and the laundry spilled out in a pile on the ground. She even thinks to herself that mistress Elward would <i>never</i> do something like that with her laundry. Since mistress Elward has probably dealt with Aes Sedai before, she would not have the same type of fearful reaction other first-timers might have, (That of being immediately fearful). Had an AS told her to simply leave, she most likely would have taken her laundry with her, or taken the simple step to set the basket aside with some care in an upright position. <br /><br />Another thing, telling mistress Elward to leave would not preclude her from looking back to see why the Aes Sedai told her to go away. All she would have to do is catch a glimpse of her torturing the novice to leave an eye witness. Even if she was too scared to go to the WT with her news, it wouldn't stop her from telling the story to others and spreading rumors of Aes Sedai killing their novices with the One Power. <br /><br />Intimidation only goes so far, and when the initial fear and shock wear off, people will tell their close friends pretty much anything.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-24 12:56:20
subject: <b>But Light</b>
body:
You threw us a curve saying that Suian recieved news that people had vanished from the farm.<br /><br />This brings into question if both were murdered or was Sarah taken or sent somewhere else.<br /><br />The end result is that the farm was empty.<br />And when someone went to check they found no evidence of a murder. (Not that a BA sister would leave any)<br /><br />Remember one of the themes is how information changes over time. <br /><br />What we accept as truth is constantly called into question.<br /><br />Stilling can't be healed. <br /><br />Now we know from RJ that Asmo was killed.<br /><br />However we dont know that the people at the farm were.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">See that Seagull in the sky Im just glad cows dont fly.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-24 14:14:09
subject: <b>Responding to ways around the oaths.</b>
body:
(Qote)Moiraine didn't have to find difficult ways to get around the Oaths when she threatened to kill the three boys. She could have used poison or an non-OP weapon, or even more simple, she could have ordered Lan. <br />As to the Ashaman Elaida intended to kill, we know from Rands abduction that AS can use the OP to punish, but more likely is that Elaida intended them to simply keep whatever channelers there were shielded and have their warders do the actual executions(end qote)<br /><br />In the scene where she says this its in relation to if she thought the boys would be taken by the shadow. In that case it would be getting by the oaths because if the shadow had the draggon reborn, the world would be worse then lost.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Journey to the Tiger Sea,<br />Where legends die and stories be,<br />Where royalty rise and fall,<br />And Wotmania rules them all.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-24 21:34:47
subject: <b>Bengal Meara.</b>
body:
It doesn't matter what happens to the world, the oaths only allow a sister to use the Power as a weapon in defense of her life, the life of a sister, or the life of her warder. If she can convince herself that something will put her life in danger, then she can use the Power as a weapon.<br /><br />While I agree with you that Moiraine could have gotten around the three oaths in that scene, your logic is faulty.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Warder to Be'lal's Girl<br />Wotmania Lottery<br /><br /><br /><br />&quot;Meh. A good relationship is like fireworks: loud, explosive, and liable to maim you if you hold on too long.&quot; ~ Sven, Questionable Content<br /><br />Bonded by Sidious. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-25 00:05:15
subject: <b>to Phelix</b>
body:
The reason of my logic, I noticed i didn't really state it clearly, was thet that would make the draggon rules by teh shadow, and thus a dark friend. The only thing Moriane seems to really fear is rand becoming a dark friend, and she throws the other two in because their fates are tied to his. If you examine what she does closely, his death seems less of a worry to her then his turning. <br /><br />&quot;The day could only end three ways, one she would take you and leave, and the next time we saw you, you would call yourself Lewis Therin, and her lover.&quot; Not exact qote. Moriane did not jsut give her life so that rand could be saved, but so that he would not be taken by Lanfear and used by the shadow. In a way it makes her, and I can easily see her believing this, that if that should happen he would become a dark friend, and thus she could kill him for being one before he was taken.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Journey to the Tiger Sea,<br />Where legends die and stories be,<br />Where royalty rise and fall,<br />And Wotmania rules them all.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-25 14:34:58
subject: <b>Genuis point on a pointless matter</b>
body:
This theory does an excellent job proving its point, but frankly, very few people care too much about such minor characters.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;What do you mean, why's it got to be built?&quot; he said. &quot;It's a bypass. You've got to build bypasses.&quot; - Mr Prosser, head builder</font><p></p>


created: 2005-06-02 13:20:38
subject: <b>Maybe.......</b>
body:
I read one particular quote from your theory (which, for the most part, i agree with <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> ) and i just thought, maybe Mesaana is going around the white tower as one of the Sitter's? I think some new sitters must have been appointed when the tower split, and maybe Mesaana managed to be one of those...in some respects this is a bit <br />far-fetched but you never know.<br />Any way, the quote im on about is; &#8220;Mesaana knew every tune, demanded every word, every gesture and facial expression. Plainly she eavesdropped on those meetings.&#8221;<br />It could be quite difficult to eavesdrop on a room full of<br />Aes Sedai unnoticed, so maybe she is acting as one of the Sitters in the meetings? (I'm assuming the women are sitters, though they may not be..i don't remember the scene that well   <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />  ) Well, that's my rather flawed theory, but hey.<br />I thought your theory was good, and i agree with most of it (as i said before)<br />Great theory by the way.


created: 2007-08-29 18:05:47
subject: <b>At Last</b>
body:
I've been wondering about the murder of Sahra for some time, and I've always thought it was Alviarin.  I doubt she would trust Sahra's interrogation to any other BA member, she would want to give Messana an eyewitness account to increase her standing in the Forsaken's mind.<br /><br />I agree with all but one of the reasons stated.  That<br />mud business may be another one of RJ's red herrings, like lip-tapping and bird-like appearences.  Any Aes Sedai could very easily remove dirt form their clothing


created: 2005-05-23 06:20:24
subject: <b>Very nice little theory</b>
body:
Always thought about the words that RJ uses for the Old Tongue and tried to piece together other words. Never thought of that before.<br />Good job.<br />Though I thought Dinosaur meant &quot;Terrible Lizard&quot;....<br />Just being picky...<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />


created: 2005-05-23 06:22:33
subject: <b>Well, I thought it was 'thunder lizard'...</b>
body:
...but that's brontosaurus or something, I think. I googled to get the definition - answers.com.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="blue"><img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /> <b>PROUDLY CELEBRATING 10 YEARS OF WOTMANIA!</b></font> <img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /><br /><br /><font color="purple"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <b>FAQ and WoT Admin</b></font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><font color="gray"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> <b>Part-time Philosopher of the Wheel</b> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /></font></font><p><a href="/wotmessageboard2showmessage.asp?MessageID=107993" target="_blank">New WoT quizzes!</a></p><p></p>


created: 2005-05-23 14:41:47
subject: <b>Seems good to me...</b>
body:
Nice idea to fit together name pieces. I don't see any obvious problems with it.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;What do you mean, why's it got to be built?&quot; he said. &quot;It's a bypass. You've got to build bypasses.&quot; - Mr Prosser, head builder</font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-23 14:49:56
subject: <b>Myth</b>
body:
Of course the myth of draggons comes from dinose. Who knows, maybe some did apear to breath fire? We can't really tell that well from bones....<br /><br />Its a good thoery, and I don't see any obvious flaws.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Journey to the Tiger Sea,<br />Where legends die and stories be,<br />Where royalty rise and fall,<br />And Wotmania rules them all.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-23 17:16:10
subject: <b>I'm a paleontologist</b>
body:
There's a lot of speculation in the paleontology community that dragon myths (both East Asian and European) probably originated as stories concocted by ancient and medieval people to explain dinosaur bones.  It wasn't until the early 19th century that folks began to realize that the big stone bones they were finding were actual parts of extinct creatures.<br /><br />One nitpick:  Pterosaurs are not technically considered to be dinosaurs.  They've been asigned to their own Class.<br /><br />I actually have nothing to contribute to this theory besides my own geekery.<br /><br />Oh wait, yes I do.  I rather like the idea of there being a connection between the &quot;Telamon&quot; in LTT and the OT word for dragon, &quot;aman&quot;.  Might &quot;Telamon&quot; literally mean &quot;The Dragon&quot;?  Do other AoL honorifics have literal meanings?<br /><br /><br />


created: 2005-05-24 13:59:17
subject: <b>to Avicularia</b>
body:
Actually I looked it up...<br /><br />Yes I'm a geek too....<br /><br />And a lot of the names Jordan uses either have roots of real names, or are just fully real names. Whats more the names give a little insight into the charecter, for istants Ilena is a Irish name that means light, and is a very close spelling spelling of the Draggons dead wife..Ilyena. Coinsidence? Probebly not, cause there are a lot of those names out there...<br /><br />And yes I have too much free time to have found out as many as I did.........<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Journey to the Tiger Sea,<br />Where legends die and stories be,<br />Where royalty rise and fall,<br />And Wotmania rules them all.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-24 14:39:01
subject: <b>Yes</b>
body:
Robert Jordan does use a lot of reral life info, such as heroes from the horn, and there might be a connection. For example, anyone know of the Japanese story of Amaterasu? It's connection with the hero Amaresu is undeniable.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;What do you mean, why's it got to be built?&quot; he said. &quot;It's a bypass. You've got to build bypasses.&quot; - Mr Prosser, head builder</font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-24 21:00:18
subject: <b>more on names</b>
body:
I think you misunderstood me.  I mean to say that AoL honorifics have literal Old Tongue translations, not that they are real world allusions.  Remember the third name in a AoL name is an honorific that canbe earned through service.  For instance, take &quot;Telamon&quot;.  We know that &quot;tel&quot; is some sort of article (as in &quot;tel'aran'rhiod&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> and that &quot;aman&quot; means &quot;dragon&quot;.  So (ignoring the slight misspelling), &quot;Lews Therin Telamon&quot; literally mean &quot;Lews Therin the Dragon&quot; in the OT.  <br /><br />One day I will sit down with an OT dictionary and try and figure out what the honorifics on the end of the real names of the Forsaken.  I believe that Graendal's honorific is &quot;Nindar&quot; which roughly translates to &quot;our sister&quot; in the OT.


created: 2005-05-24 21:16:11
subject: <b>well, i botched it</b>
body:
Apparently &quot;tel&quot; means &quot;world&quot;.<br /><br />Interestingly, that make &quot;Telamon&quot; = &quot;World Dragon&quot; or &quot;Dragon of the World&quot;, which might be even cooler.<br /><br />Yeah, I botched the Graendal name too.<br /><br />


created: 2005-05-25 14:30:09
subject: <b>Fine with Me</b>
body:
Even if the minorities aren't quite correct, there are still many different real life examples that can be drawn to the book. Robert Jordan recieved many of his ideas from mythology and real life literature, and if we understand these things well, we have a somewhat blurry idea of what he is trying to get at.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;What do you mean, why's it got to be built?&quot; he said. &quot;It's a bypass. You've got to build bypasses.&quot; - Mr Prosser, head builder</font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-25 20:44:22
subject: <b>I voted NO</b>
body:
RJ said in one of the QotW that we DID NOT SEE DEMANDRED ALTERED persona - that means the theory is wrong <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />


created: 2005-05-26 01:44:17
subject: <b>deme</b>
body:
that was a weird comment.......<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Journey to the Tiger Sea,<br />Where legends die and stories be,<br />Where royalty rise and fall,<br />And Wotmania rules them all.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-28 05:29:02
subject: <b>When I saw the theory was written by M2K...</b>
body:
I started settling into my chair preparing for a nice, long read. Imagine my surprise when I finished reading and I hadn't even conformed the cushion to my butt yet!<br /><br />Still, a nice theory. But for the guy mainly responsible for shaping our FAQ into a good-sized tome, it was a tad short. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Carpal-Tunnel syndrome, or is your keyboard getting worn out? <br /><br />Thumbs up just the same, and I hope the next one gives you cramps. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2005-06-02 23:32:57
subject: <b>My feelings also Light.</b>
body:
When you see the Made Man's handle, you cannot help but get excited...what's he got up his sleeve?  <br /><br />As always though, it was technically perfect.<br /><br /><br />Columbo.<br /><br />Thanks M2K!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2005-06-06 16:03:04
subject: <b>this is very true, and a really good point.</b>
body:
i do have a question about it though...if <i>der'raken</i> is used to describe a great lizard, how does that parallel or explain LTT's acquisition of the handle &quot;Dragon?&quot; going by any sort of nomenclative custom it would indicate that he shares some sort of character quality with it. i mean, i can see the &quot;great&quot; part, but the &quot;lizard&quot; part...that's something different altogether. considering that lizards are considered (usually) to be untrustworthy or evil entities, it would make you think that he got the name &quot;Dragon&quot; after the whole kinslaying incident. i probably need a re-read very badly, but i seem to remember him getting the &quot;Dragon&quot; handle as a result of his battling against the shadow before he went mad, rather than as a result.<br /><br />this is a random thought, but it also makes you wonder where the imagery came from to get imprinted on the giant ter'angreal in rhuidean that tatoos what are accepted to be dragons on the clan chiefs' forearms...<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">___________________________<br />i'm a WoThead <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br />___________________________<br />When all else fails, laugh.<br />___________________________<br /><br /><i>Tai'Shar Charleston, S.C.!</i></font><p></p>


created: 2005-06-06 21:45:18
subject: <b>and to clarify my last post</b>
body:
wow, i just read through my last post, and the end of it sounded like i was drunk...<br /><br />to quote: this is a random thought, but it also makes you wonder where the imagery came from to get imprinted on the giant ter'angreal in rhuidean that tatoos what are accepted to be dragons on the clan chiefs' forearms...<br /><br />to translate:<br />this is a random thought, but, it sort of makes you wonder where, going by <i>&quot;der'raken&quot;</i>, the imagery came from for the tatoos that are imprinted on Aiel clan chief's forearms from the giant ter'angreal in rhuidean...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">___________________________<br />i'm a WoThead <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br />___________________________<br />When all else fails, laugh.<br />___________________________<br /><br /><i>Tai'Shar Charleston, S.C.!</i></font><p></p>


created: 2005-08-11 16:24:51
subject: <b>sounds good</b>
body:
but why would they give him &quot;great lizard&quot; as a third name when they already have aman as the word for dragon? doesnt really add up<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">We rode on the winds of the rising storm<br />We ran to the sounds of the thunder<br />We danced among the lightning bolts<br />And tore the world asunder.<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-10-14 17:46:17
subject: <b>and btw...</b>
body:
its spelled pteradactyl... <br />he he he<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Samshaidar Mhael<br />The Leader of the Destroyers of Shadow <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-blue.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-red.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/borg.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-green.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-purple.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />I am immortal, I have inside me blood of kings <br />I have no rival, no man can be my equal<br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2006-06-14 23:59:51
subject: <b>just a thought...</b>
body:
its neat and all, but isn't Der' for the seanchan infront of an animal or something supposed to mean a good trainer of it, der'raken isn't supposed to be an animal, but the trainer of a raken, like der'suldam, i dunno if i just have the entire thing wrong, but it seems that they wouldn't have a der'raken thats bigger than a to'raken because they have der'to'raken, as the trainers of the to'raken, well... i'm done talking for now,...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">--------------------------------------------------------------<br />If that made sense, I congratulate you.</font><p></p>


created: 2006-06-17 13:25:34
subject: <b>morat!</b>
body:
that will be 'morat', themaster.. morat'raken is &quot;raken-trainer&quot;. der'morat'raken is &quot;chief trainer&quot;


created: 2006-09-15 21:34:15
subject: <b>I don't know...</b>
body:
I must disagree with this for one reason. Randland differs from our world when it comes to mythology and belief. We have no explanation to how we came into existance, and we could not exlain the giant bones we found. So we came up with religion, made up stories and dragons, to explain our place in the universe.<br />In Randland however, they know who created them. They know how the world works. So far I have yet to hear any story of  creature that is entirely made up. So that's why it doesn't make any sense that this one creature has been entirely made up, while no other has.


created: 2007-03-12 08:32:00
subject: <b>a note</b>
body:
for those talking about the telamon connection, nice spot, tel'aran'rhiod means the hidden world, not world of dreams<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Word to ya</font><p></p>


created: 2007-08-20 12:36:49
subject: <b>Response:</b>
body:
to Avicularia:<br /><br />Cool as this would be, im not sure if it can be acurate. Consider: LTT was assumedly given his third name before the war of power began. I can infer this in a few ways; a) it just makes sense, b) before the war of power, lanfear, although not called this, loved LTT, and, also loving power, would likely not love LTT if he was not already great, c) it seems likely that many Aes Sedai of the age would have third names.<br /><br />So, LTT had 'telamon' before the war of power. Judging by how ishy and LTT talk during the prologue of EotW, it seems that 'The Dragon' was given to him during the war, for his war prowess. ah well.<br /><br />and to Word:<br /><br />when Moiraine first translates Tel'aran'rhiod, she says it is EITHER world of dreams or hidden world<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">-Sabin<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2007-11-17 19:38:00
subject: <b>A Few Points</b>
body:
1)  While the prefix &quot;der-&quot; is now used to mean master/chief (handler of...) in Seanchan it could still easily, without any changing of the meaning, mean &quot;top dog&quot; in another sense.  Ergo, the arguement of der'raken refering only to humans can be false- especially because it is der'<i>morat</i>'raken.  If this is the case one can see how the word could evolve from der'raken to draken (which could easily evolve into dragon in many ways, the simplest is changing the voiceless velar plosive to voiced).<br /><br />2) &quot;Tel&quot; doesn't necessarily mean &quot;world&quot;, both &quot;aran&quot; and &quot;rhiod&quot; could mean that.  Now, I'm fine with it meaning &quot;world&quot; (Dragon of the World does sound cool) but we don't have any proof.  Of course, I am not very familiar with word forming in the OL, so if someone can identify &quot;tel&quot; to mean &quot;world&quot; based on the rules of formation, I'm fine with that.<br /><br />I had another point but I do not remember it...


created: 2005-05-24 08:33:51
subject: <b>Jordandred?</b>
body:
I'll admit, you caught me off guard for a sec.  Then I LMFAO!  Good work, but maybe it should fall in the humourous theories section.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">The Mofo J.A.R.<br />Head of Public Relations, Al Bum's Records<br />Lead Guitarist, Inspected by 40<br />Singer, Songwriter, multi-instrumentalist<br />Viking <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /><br />WoT addict<br />http://www.inspectedby40.com<br />First post on TP blackboard 4 times.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-24 09:35:57
subject: <b>To Jar Silvin</b>
body:
I thought about posting this under the humourous theories section. But decided to post it under the Demandred section, because some of the existing Demandred theories are just as way out as this one. <br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Founding member of the ASI</b><br /><br /><b>TP ADMIN</b><br /><br /><b>Simon</b><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-24 13:31:54
subject: <b>LOLing all the way.</b>
body:
I love the conclusion. Ok, you got me.... I'll ACTUALLY read your proofs instead of just your main thueses.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Journey to the Tiger Sea,<br />Where legends die and stories be,<br />Where royalty rise and fall,<br />And Wotmania rules them all.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-24 18:25:32
subject:
<b>I'm convinced <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /></b>

body:
Definitely got me believing <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />


created: 2005-05-24 21:33:51
subject: <b>RJ is DO</b>
body:
I like most of the logic, all except for two parts.<br /><br />First of all, given that RJ DOES have a hand in the WoT world, and the creator said that he will not take a hand, it must be concluded that RJ is NOT the creator. But who is he?<br /><br />It is obvious - RJ is the Dark One! After all, the Dark One is orchestrating events from behind a seal that stops him from entering the world, and if he was released, the world would end (if RJ entered the world, he could no longer write about it, and it would end).<br /><br />By the same token, Harriet is the creator - She takes no part in the story whatsoever, but no doubt she was involved in the creation of the world, since RJ would have bounced ideas off her as he worked out the fine details.<br /><br />By this logic, Demandred is NOT RJ, but rather his proxy (of course, so is everyone else in the world). Who is he, you ask?<br /><br />Quite simple - we have not yet seen his alter-ego, but no doubt there has been mention of him. He is using proxies in the south, so he has no reason to be in the south, himself. Ruling out all of the south lands, plus those held by the good guys (Cairhien, Andor, etc), we narrow the field. Since each of those forsaken who took alter-egos had their own land, separate from the other forsaken, we can rule out the white tower (mesaana), Arad Doman (graendal), and Seanchan (semirhage). This leaves the borderlands, the sea folk, the aiel, and Shara.<br /><br />Given that the borderland royalty have noticed no major changes in their organisation, and the sea folk have too rigid a command structure to allow him in, and the aiel would notice someone not trained as an aiel, we rule out all but Shara.<br /><br />This fits perfectly. We know that the Sharans lost their leaders (to graendal's human menagerie), and this leaves Shara open to manipulation. What a perfect place for Demandred to hide!<br /><br />So that's the solution - Demandred is currently ruling Shara!!!!!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Asmodean is alive and posing as Sammael!<br /><br />Sammael <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sammy.gif" border="0" /> is Sparticus.<br /><br />No, I'm Sparticus! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /> = <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />I'm Herid Fel Reborn!!!!! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shy.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-25 00:48:26
subject: <b>Then who was Demandred</b>
body:
before Graendal got the leaders? Assumedly, he had already gotten himself an identity; why abandon it? Besides, the forsaken speak about how it is too far from the center to be of use for many years. Demandred's needs are urgent; he wants Rand dead now, and he wants useful power now, I think. Shara's just too long-term in my opinion.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">The Owl of Minerva flies only at dusk, but the Penguin of Idiotochus waddles all day long.<br />I never fight fire with fire; that's what they expect. No, I fight fire with dead leaves.<br /><br />Zeroinbarnotation, RMCM</font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-25 14:32:14
subject: <b>Errrr .....</b>
body:
It's possible, but ... I don't think Robert Jordan would ... put himself in such a position....<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;What do you mean, why's it got to be built?&quot; he said. &quot;It's a bypass. You've got to build bypasses.&quot; - Mr Prosser, head builder</font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-25 20:45:49
subject: <b>I voted NO</b>
body:
RJ said in one of the QotW that we DID NOT SEE DEMANDRED ALTERED persona - that means the theory is wrong  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />


created: 2005-05-25 21:17:46
subject: <b>I thought I addressed that?</b>
body:
Darn. Now I have to go back and read my own work because my short term memory is shot <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/disapprove.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smackhead.gif" border="0" />. Shame  on me <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/disapprove.gif" border="0" />.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">The Owl of Minerva flies only at dusk, but the Penguin of Idiotochus waddles all day long.<br />I never fight fire with fire; that's what they expect. No, I fight fire with dead leaves.<br /><br />Zeroinbarnotation, RMCM</font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-27 13:47:24
subject: <b>awesome theory</b>
body:
i voted yes because of the pirate talk<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">The Upper Peninsula...the Two Rivers of this world... <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-31 13:21:57
subject: <b>to Aielyn</b>
body:
Why rule out those nations held by the good guys? We know one forsaken was already in the black tower, which was in good guy territory, so why not more then one?<br /><br />Personally I think Taim is a forsaken...... Its the perfect disguise to use, because it makes it so he can built up an evil army, right in the middle of the good.....<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Journey to the Tiger Sea,<br />Where legends die and stories be,<br />Where royalty rise and fall,<br />And Wotmania rules them all.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-06-08 16:19:01
subject: <b>Very nice</b>
body:
Its good to see a theory that doesn't take it's self seriously.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" />Screaming_Defiance<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" />I demand the return of Hurin<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />I love these smiley's<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/clap.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banghead.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shakefist.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-08-02 18:09:14
subject: <b>ROTFLMAO!</b>
body:
Very well done <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Marigan<br />Near-sister to A_fan_of_Rolan_dcs<br /><br />Proxylocks <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Loyally Devoted to the great <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> &quot;Lord of Chaos&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" />, Demandred! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-26 09:05:06
subject: <b>first post</b>
body:
&quot;1 If Lanfear died in the Finn world we have not been given a POV where there is reflection of both the death state or the new flesh. Our other reborn Forsaken have spoken of the dreamlike state and nightmares as well as gratitude for new flesh (well some are grateful)&quot;<br /><br />I don't really understand this remark you made. Do you mean there hasn't been a 'gar-like sequence about the how and why of reincarnation? Well, Moridin/Ishy didn't have that either, and he's been awoken from the dead like three times!


created: 2005-05-26 11:24:42
subject: <b>Good thought, but I do not agree</b>
body:
I like the way your thinking.  I have a problem with why her level of power has been reduced.  But I do not think the answer is she escaped via Tar.  <br />(1) it doesn&#8217;t explain why she has a new body.<br />(2) She is mind trapped. I do not think she could have been mind trapped unless she was reborn and SH took her to Moridin.<br /><br />Hell her reduction of power could be a shield made with the TP, inverted that Moridin placed on her.<br />


created: 2005-05-26 11:34:20
subject: <b>A problem with this idea is ...</b>
body:
Cyndane's body is not the same as Lanfear's body.  This is clear from the reactions of all the Forsaken who have come into contact with Cyndane - i.e. none of them recognize her.  It's also evident from Cyndane's own actions - it's mentioned somewhere (by Graendal, I think) that she &quot;strives for height&quot; - apparently, her new body is much shorter than her old one.<br /><br />So, Lanfear's soul is definitely in a new body.  Why, if she didn't die?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Rise and fall, turn the Wheel,<br />'cause all life is<br />Is really just a circle.&quot;<br /><br />-BHT&amp;tM</font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-26 12:15:24
subject: <b>Well...</b>
body:
As to the body thing ones appearance is irrelevent to one who can channel. Lanfear could appear however she wished. We know that she was heavily disguised when in the waste.<br /><br />As to the mind trap we know that Moggy hasnt died yet but she is mind trapped. In addition if you think about it the mind trap is being used on only those who have becomed trapped outside of the control of the DO.<br /><br />Moggy by the Girls<br />Lanny by the Finn.<br /><br />The mind trap prevents this from occuring again.<br /><br />At any rate I just think that Lanny has gone too far afield in the past to be reborn only to be reigned in with a Mind trap. <br /><br />She seems to connect her loss of power to the Finn holding her. If she had died and was reborn the body would not have that kind of effect. We have the g'ars to thank for that.<br /><br />I think the strongest indication is that the DO claims that Asmo isnt comming back because of betrayal so why should l]Lanny come back if she was the one who set Asmo on that course in the first place.<br /><br />I dont think we will have enough evidence on how she escaped till Mo gets rescued but Im fairly certain she didnt die.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">See that Seagull in the sky Im just glad cows dont fly.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-26 13:13:51
subject: <b>could be.....</b>
body:
If she did not die, its possible her apearence is fake. Moh did indeed have the mind trap set on her, even though she was allive, and so could Lanfear. Whats more Moh was made to do the things she hated most as punishment, IE serve one who is weaker then her. Lanfear loved being beautiful and tall, so making her apear short and, what would be in her eyes, plain would be ample punishment. <br /><br />As for Amo, if he where killed with Belfire, as is sugjested, he could not be reborn. the DO has stated before that one who is killed with belfire is beyound even his reach. <br /><br />I personally agree with the idea Lanfear left part of herself behind. The part that is good, possibly. Ever before going there she was determined to make Rand hers, but  after she comes out she only wishes his death. Is the good part of Lanfea gone? I think so.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Journey to the Tiger Sea,<br />Where legends die and stories be,<br />Where royalty rise and fall,<br />And Wotmania rules them all.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-26 13:21:17
subject: <b>But ...</b>
body:
Lanfear would have to have a reason to disguise herself as Cyndane (like she did when posing as Keille Shaogi in TSR).  And, I can't think of a plausible one.  It can't just be the Mind Trap - Moggy isn't disguising herself.<br /><br />Plus, from the evidence, Cyndane does not like her new body (the whole striving for height thing).  When she posed as fat Keille, she didn't strive to be thin.  In fact, she deliberately chose a less-than-flattering disguise to divert Rand's suspicion.<br /><br />IMO, it's a certainty that Lanfear has a new body.  It is, I'll admit, less certain she died.  It's possible she has a new body due to being held by the 'finn, without having died.  I don't believe it, but it's possible.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Rise and fall, turn the Wheel,<br />'cause all life is<br />Is really just a circle.&quot;<br /><br />-BHT&amp;tM</font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-26 13:49:53
subject: <b>Her new body</b>
body:
Several possibilites occur to me<br /><br />Mr Death using the TP is giving her the shape for his own purposes.<br /><br />She has taken possesion of the body via TAR or the Finn world<br /><br />The body is the result of Someone shaping her in TAR and holding that image. Remember if she were there phyisically the change could occur. <br /><br />While she doesnt appear to like this new version of herself she does not seem be hung up on it in her own mind. <br /><br />Something no one has considered either is that Lanfears hot body appearance could also have been a disquise in the AOL.<br />We may be seeing her true self for the first time ever. She is vain enough have never shown her true face.<br /><br />Im not concerned with her new bod as much as what seems to me as too much evidence of her not dying in the Finn world.<br /><br />We know Morgaise did not die yet the main reason for jumping to Caemlyn so soon was in response to the perception the Ravi had killed her.<br /><br />We are fairly certain that Moiraine is not dead either.<br /><br />Like I quoted Amys basicly calls Rand a fool for thinking Mo and Lanny are dead. <br /><br />This is our first foreshadowing of Mo's eventual return.<br />The other is Min mentioning the only failed viewing<br /><br />I cant find the qoute just now but the DO did not say Asmo was BF'd he said he recieved final death due to betrayal.<br />We know from RJ that the DO however did not order his murder. He makes the distinction between Ravi who was BF'd and Asmo leading me to believe that Asmo was not BF'd<br /><br />If it really was betrayal that has Asmo gone for good and not BF the it would stand to reason the Lanny who has even more reason to fear being seen as a betrayer would not recieve reincarnation from the DO.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">See that Seagull in the sky Im just glad cows dont fly.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-26 14:01:08
subject: <b>How could they have known the extent of Lanfear's betrayal?</b>
body:
The only two people who knew just how 'far afield' Lanfear had gone were Rand and Asmodean.  Certainly, the other Forsaken all suspected her of being up to no good, but what proof could they have possibly had?  All of the key events went down in Rhuidean, when no one else was around; and if you look through every Forsaken meeting since then it's obvious that Lanfear did a very good job of covering up what happened there.  They all assumed that Asmodean had switched sides voluntarily, and since the funky cloud dome had prevented outsiders from detecting Asmo's fight with Rand, nobody else knew that Rand had the Choedan Kal access keys, let alone that Lanfear had practically handed them to him on a platter.<br />Also, the only reason why we assume that the DO was unwilling (rather than simply unable) to resurrect Asmodean is because that's what he said to Demandred.  Why should we believe something that the Father of Lies said to spook one of his minions?  Jordan has said in interviews (and I think Question of the Week as well), that the Dark One often deceives the Forsaken and likes to make them think that he can do, see, and know more than he actually can.  His remarks about Asmodean may be an example of this.


created: 2005-05-26 14:31:15
subject: <b>Suspiscious circumstance ....</b>
body:
Youker makes a very good point. Only a few people knew the extenet of Lanfear's betrayel, so who told Shai'tan? The only person who had any knowledge of value on this subject is Asmodean, and it is questionable whether or not the DO got all the info from him. It is also suspiscious how Lanfear's body is disturbingly similar to Moraine's, and how Lanfear's power is reduced (it was disturbing to me anyway). Anyone got any idea's to clarify the matter?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;What do you mean, why's it got to be built?&quot; he said. &quot;It's a bypass. You've got to build bypasses.&quot; - Mr Prosser, head builder</font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-26 14:40:30
subject: <b>The DO's knowledge</b>
body:
RJ has said the DO is aware of events in the World. Many of the Forsaken have made comments to the effect that they fear the DO is testing them when he asks for information.<br /><br />Light in the Night made a good point in part of his longest theory when he says Lanny was probably the last to be set free. Her quote about being in a dreamless state to emphasize how deeply she was sealed.<br /><br />We would think with this kind of reference that death's state would be even more present in Cyndane's mind.<br /><br />If anyone has the DO's quote about Rahvi and Asmo can they post it.<br /><br />The DO knows about Asmo's betrayal so by the same reasoning he should know about Lanfears.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">See that Seagull in the sky Im just glad cows dont fly.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-26 14:46:35
subject: <b>The Price is Paid...</b>
body:
We know that you don't get something for nothing from the Finns.  My guess is that Lanfear's release was paid for with a part of her power and the alteration of her body.  Since it's true that we're never told that the DO reincarnated Lanfear and she never claims to have died, only been held, then it stands to reason that she made a deal like Matt did.  (Perhaps she knew a bit more about them, so was able to get out without dying.)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Questions, Comments, Thoughts?<br /><br />Geoff<br /><br />Artificial Intelligence <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/r2d2.gif" border="0" /> <br />is no match for<br />Natural Stupidity <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-26 16:39:24
subject: <b>My own personal thoughts...</b>
body:
I often think that Lanfear escaped, but only just. She was weak, even dying when she reentered the &quot;real&quot; world. At that point she'd been stilled by the either the finn or by going through the doorway, and when she escaped, her body died.<br /><br />The soul was caught and put into a new body and a Black sister from the Rebel Camp was brought to Shayol Ghul to Heal her. We've seen many of the Rebel Aes Sedai just Travel off for no apparent reason, and no one dares ask them where they go, so I think that that is a highly probably situation. It explains her reduced strength, new body, and the rest of the shin dig. <br /><br />On another idea, she might not have escaped at all, but been stilled and died in Finnland, after which the DO was able to catch her soul.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Warder to Be'lal's Girl<br />Wotmania Lottery<br /><br /><br /><br />&quot;Meh. A good relationship is like fireworks: loud, explosive, and liable to maim you if you hold on too long.&quot; ~ Sven, Questionable Content<br /><br />Bonded by Sidious. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-26 20:13:03
subject: <b>i agree with youker.</b>
body:
why should the father of lies not lie?<br /><br />After all..... its what he's best at!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Journey to the Tiger Sea,<br />Where legends die and stories be,<br />Where royalty rise and fall,<br />And Wotmania rules them all.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-27 02:33:55
subject: <b>You have a good point geoff_mc</b>
body:
I agree with geoff. It would seem more likely that Lanfear would know about the finns and ways to escape their world if trapped their. The thought of her willing to give up her body, to escape is logical, she will do anything for power and my guess would be anything if it meant freedom and life. Perhaps the lessening in her power comes from trickery by the finns. We know the Forsaken are not perfect and it could very well be that Lanfear made a deal but failed to clarify the specifics and the finns took advantage of this by taking her body and part of her power. In return she was given a new body, with less power, but also permission to leave. Now as Cyndane, Lanfear goes to Shayol hoping for, well help I guess, and instead finds herself put into a mind trap.


created: 2005-05-27 05:35:59
subject: <b>Nothing conclusive, but a few thoughts....</b>
body:
But first, this excerpt from the first round of the QotW from RJ and TOR:<br /><br />Week 3 question submitted by: Tamyrlin<br />Hometown: Illinois<br /> <br /><br />Question: <br /><br />There are many theories that attempt to create a connection of time duration to the transmigration of the dead Forsaken. Are there time and/or power constraints on the Dark One's ability to transmigrate souls?<br /><br /><br />Robert Jordan Answers:<br /><br />There are definitely time constraints on the Dark One's power to transmigrate a soul. The soul doesn't have to be secured immediately - that is, the Dark One doesn't have to be ready to snatch the soul at the instant of death - but the longer that passes after the death, the less chance that the Dark One will be able to secure the soul. Someone who has been killed with balefire in actuality died before the apparent time of his or her death, and thus the window of opportunity for the Dark One to secure that soul for transmigration is gone before the Dark One can know that the soul must be secured unless the amount of balefire used is very small. Remember that the more balefire is used, the further back the target's thread is burned out of the pattern. <br /><br />After the soul is secured, then a suitable body must be acquired and stripped of the (former) owner's memory and soul to make way for the favored one. By the way, what constitutes a suitable body from the Dark One's perspective is not that of the recipient. Certainly Aginor would never have chosen to be reincarnated in his, shall we say, less than imposing body, nor would the womanizing Balthamel have chosen to be reincarnated as a beautiful woman. It was only chance that Moridin ended up in a body that is young, fairly good looking and physically imposing. Those things simply don't matter to the Dark One. But the body has to be basically healthy and sound, and neither too young nor too old. After all, the Dark One wants his servants to be effective, and a body that meets those basic requirements is more desirable than one that doesn't. Since there is no stockpile of such bodies, the only way for someone to die and immediately be reincarnated would be a matter of pure chance. That is, the death occurred when a suitable body was on hand for some other reason. <br /><br />There are a few other limits and constraints, but I won't go into them here, since I may want to use them in the books, and I would rather they come as a surprise if I do.<br /><br /><br />--------------------------------------------------------------------------------<br />So, just to clear up one misconception that was put forth earlier, someone's soul can be caught by the DO and reincarnated into another body if a small amount of balefire was used. (Like Moiraine's perhaps?)<br /><br />More to the point that this theory entails. No, there is no conclusive evidence to say that Lanfear died beyond the doorway in Finnland. I scanned through a few interviews and all I found was RJ saying that it was fairly obvious that  Cyndane is Lanfear, but didn't see one where he stated that Lanny was reincarnated as Cyndane. (There might be one out there though, as I only searched a few.)<br /><br />One point to be made is the DO's sense of justice though. The way that Aginor and Balthamel are placed in their respective bodies shows this cruel sense of humor. (reference the above RJ reply) In Lanfear's case, even if she didn't die, the DO has apparently taken his turn at her too. (Short rather than tall, for instance.) <br /><br />Moridin tells us in WH that Cyndane tells him everything. This would mean that she was probably forced to tell all of her schemes to him, including what plots she shared with our murdered musician and what she eventually did to him to aid Rand. <br /><br />Lanfear was very aware of how powerful she was, and in fact claimed that no woman could be stronger. In this light, if the DO knew what she did to Asmo, it would make sense to me that her loss stems from the DO, doing to her exactly what she did to Asmo: a shield restricting her access to the Power. (Using the TP of course, she would neither see nor sense the shield.) And according to RJ's answer to the question, the DO wants his minions to be effective, which she can still be with this minor lessening of strength.<br /><br />RJ loves irony and uses it often. Her loss could be another example of just that.<br /><br />*Side Note* ~ Lanfear's power loss is not severe enough to be caused by stilling and incomplete Healing. (Siuan and Leanne aren't anywhere near the strength they were before.) You should recall Graendal thinking that Cyndane is stronger than her, and that was rare even back in the AoL, so the loss can't be attributed to that. <br /><br />Also, Rand uses TAR in the flesh fairly often because that's the only way he knows. If he has registered a loss of power, he hasn't had a pov telling us about it.<br /><br />Anyway, I always thought Lanfear died. Thanks for pointing out that this isn't necessarily the case.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-27 13:28:30
subject: <b>interesting uh-huh uh-huh</b>
body:
my personal thought on lanfear's demise is that she had to make some sort of bargain to escape, or the one who came to rescue her had to make some sort of a bargain (probably moridin or shadar haran).  it is assumable that the DO might be able to tell when one of his peeps has left normal reality and may have been able to alert his minions that she needs a-savin.  but a bargain has to be struck with these finns (not sure which prefix they have) and it could have been a removal of all that they bestowed upon her before, her life etc.<br /><br />anyway....<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;It's ridiculous to suggest that a team could go through a season in our league without losing. It's comical, just comical.&quot; Alex Ferguson 27th September 2002<br /><br />gooner...red and white army...<br /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gimli.gif" border="0" /> my soulmate<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/clown.gif" border="0" /> my nemesis</font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-27 14:40:53
subject: <b>That explains a lot</b>
body:
If Lanfear worked out a deal with the Finn to escape, that would explain her powers, physical state, ect... However, how did she get stuck in a mindtrap? It is also a wonder that Moraine didn't srike a deal too, so maybe some 'evil' force that we are not yet aware of helped in some way.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;What do you mean, why's it got to be built?&quot; he said. &quot;It's a bypass. You've got to build bypasses.&quot; - Mr Prosser, head builder</font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-27 16:38:56
subject: <b>Light in the Night</b>
body:
A shield made from the TP cannot explain Lanfear's loss of strength. Mesaana told Demandred that Cyndane was weaker than Lanfear. Therefore her potential has decreased which is different to her having the same potential as before and being able to draw less.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">A One Power researcher<br />Defender of Lanfear<br />Grand Ninja-Nae'blis to be feared <br />Original Warder to Isa <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br />New Warder to Nossie <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />Toy to Seriana <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/winky.gif" border="0" /><br />Mystified by a Fan <br />Bonded Phelix - I was young, it happened so fast.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-27 19:25:11
subject:
<b>I guess I interpret it differently than you, sidious.... <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /></b>

body:
<b>A shield made from the TP cannot explain Lanfear's loss of strength. Mesaana told Demandred that Cyndane was weaker than Lanfear. Therefore her potential has decreased which is different to her having the same potential as before and being able to draw less.</b><br /><br />A couple things here. First we know that the AoL channeling females can make their potential appear less than it is, or for the ability to be masked entirely. <br /><br />In essence, to do this, they probably use some form of an inverted shield to block others from seeing or sensing their true ability. If they can do this to themselves, then I see no problem with the DO doing it to one of them.<br /><br />Another situation: In tFoH, when Rand is fighting Lanfear at the docks, she keeps trying to shield him. He can feel the shield sliding in-between him and the Power, and sense the lessening of his ability to draw on the Power:<br />&quot;Her attempted shield vanished, reappeared, returned as fast as he could cut it, but always with that momentary ebbing of saidin, moments when it almost failed, leaving his counterstroke barely enough to foil her attack. Handling two weaves at once should have been easy - he could handle ten or more - but not when one was a desperate attempt against something he could not know was there until it was almost too late.&quot; <br /><br />So the question arises, if you are a partially shielded female channeler, can someone see past that shield and recognize your potential? Or is your potential diminished by the shield and that is all that can be sensed by an observer? Rand's potential ability to draw saidin is ebbing, so how would someone be able to say he could draw more? (I know this sensing only applies to females, but we have to use Rand for this comparison instead. I'm not sure if Nynaeve has the same descriptive thoughts when Talene shields her.)<br /><br />I guess what I'm suggesting here is that their link to the Source is diminished by the shield. If that chokehold is partially blocking their link to the Power, then isn't their potential lessened since that's all they can now draw? (Potential ability is what the AS normally use to describe the amount of Power they will be able to draw through their link once thay have gained their full strength. And I intentionally emphasized the use of the word &quot;link&quot; since that is how Rand described it, and is the &quot;bridged gap&quot; that Nynaeve Heals.)<br /><br />From RJ's answer to the QotW:<br />&quot;A shield exists both as a barrier around the entire person <b>and as a single point</b> along with everything in between.(emphasis mine)<br /><br />IMO, that single point is at the individual's link to the Source. Maybe you read or interpret this another way?     <br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-27 21:41:41
subject: <b>Shields and Cyndane's decreased strength</b>
body:
Hi all,<br />The one thing IMHO which no comment here is addressing is that regardless of woven shields or mind traps or shielding of potential or any other post-capture theories which all avoid death or the Finn holding as a cause is Cyndane's POV statement (about Alivia?) &quot;She was stronger than she had been before the Aelfinn held her!&quot; (apologies if I mis-stated that slightly)<br /><br />The point is that Cyndane views her power as having changed when she was held, happening either during or at the escape/rescue or whatever it was.  She did not say, &quot;She was stronger than she had been since [someone] shielded me&quot; or &quot;since I did something&quot; or &quot;since someone did somethint to me&quot;  The time point of interest was her holding, not something tha was done to her afterwards. For me, this means that the decrease in her power happened either during the holding or possibly her escape/rescue, and no later.


created: 2005-05-27 23:16:29
subject: <b>Here's how the sentence really reads....</b>
body:
&quot;She was stronger than Cyndane had been before the Aelfinn and the Eelfinn held her!&quot;<br /><br />A terribly constructed and worded sentence if ever I saw one. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />If you really want to look hard at things, it appears she was already Cyndane before the time they held her, too. Not Lanfear.<br /><br />There is also the very real possibility that Moiraine and/or Lanfear were both stilled in their battle. Lanfear had been channeling through the angreal when Moiraine ripped it away from her as they fell through, (apparently). The sudden loss of power could have caused her serious damage. So the reference to her being stronger earlier might be referring to this as well.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-28 01:22:32
subject: <b>Hold a moment</b>
body:
Let me deconstruct the horrible sentence <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />She was stronger in the power than Cyndane had been before the Finn(shorthand) held her.&quot;<br /><br />The part about being stronger in the power all refers to Alivia.  <br /><br />The part about Cyndane's past strength being different than it is now basicly says that she was at her full strength at the time she was held.<br /><br />This sentance actually doesnt tell us she is weaker just that there is a difference. We dont find out about weaker from anyone but Mr Death.<br /><br /><br />Now she could have been stilled this is true it does not follow that the healing from stilling would result in such a drastic reduction in strength as has happened with Suian and Leanne. This could be just as easily attributed to the weave Nyneave uses. Remember she heals them the same way she heals Logain. (Men and Women are different after all)<br />Logain does not seem to have a drasticly reduced strength from his healing.<br />(I believe there are even comments to this effect at the time)<br /><br />Like I said we can speculate as to how she came to the current condition there are not enough facts in evidence yet but I see enough evidence to support the fact that she need not have died and more than likely escaped or was rescued.<br /><br />Any way its my theory and you dont have to agree<br />I wont be offended.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">See that Seagull in the sky Im just glad cows dont fly.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-28 05:08:00
subject: <b>It seems we're straying a little far afield....</b>
body:
but since we are, we might as well connect some of the dots while we're at it. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br />From the best we can tell, a woman wielding saidar doesn't fully Heal another woman from stilling, while we see Damer Flinn, a man wielding saidin capable of fully Healing a woman from the same thing. Nynaeve also apparently fully Healed Logain from his gentling. Logic says it takes the opposite half of the Source to fully Heal this malady, then.<br /><br />When Moggy is mindtrapped, she notes that Moridin already has another mindtrap around his neck. (ACoS, chap.25, Jan. 5th)<br />Moggy and Cyndane pay a visit to Graendal, and she notes Cyndane is stronger than she is. (TPoD, chap.12, Jan. 20th)<br />Damer Flinn Heals Irgain, the first fully Healed female AS performed by a male. WH, chap.13, Feb. 17th)<br /><br />It has been widely speculated here at this MB and elsewhere, that Lanfear was stilled while battling Moiraine. Yet she is stronger than Graendal almost a whole month before Flinn first Heals anyone. So if she was stilled, who Healed her? <br /><br />Much has been made of men not being able to show women how to weave, and vice-versa. So presumably even a Yellow or anyone else from Salidar that witnessed Nynaeve perform her weaves, should not have been able to duplicate this and show a male how to do it. In TPoD chap 2, Moridin has a pov about these current-Age channelers being full of surprises, and marvels at Nynaeve's Healing of stilling, even though it is imperfect. (Just thought I'd throw that in, because he would be a logical choice for people to suspect as the possible Healer of Cyndane/Lanfear.)<br /><br />Along with that, Ishy tells LTT in tEotW prologue that he is not an accomplished Healer, that he follows another Power now, Dashiva claims to not know much Healing, and lets Flinn tend to Rand after Fain's attack, and Taim says he teaches the asha'man what little Healing he knows. This would leave only Demandred and Halima as truly viable Healers for Cyndane/Lanfear, (if she was stilled), and I don't seem to recall either of them having that Talent in their repertoire. It was, as I recall, a pretty complex weave using all five Powers, and required a fair amount of dexterity to perform.<br /><br />BTW, caychris, I've already pretty much agreed that Lanfear need not have died. Sometimes these BB posts wander off on tangents and you learn new things by talking them out. I myself had never looked into the timeline of seeing Cyndane at Graendal's palace and compare it in relationship with Flinn's Healing of Irgain. Taking that into consideration and then eliminating the male Forsaken as possible Healers, has led me to conclude Lanfear probably wasn't stilled, either. This in turn refers back to the unexplained drop in Power your theory alludes to, and in my mind, one possibility has now been taken off my list.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-29 14:11:00
subject: <b>This whole stilling story</b>
body:
I agree with LiTN.<br /><br />It is also important to remember how the Forsaken think. They are always waiting for a flaw in any of the others which allows them to rise higher.<br /><br />If Lanfear was stilled , the idea that any of the males would help her is preposterous. She has nothing to offer them and any of them would kill a stilled former Forsaken. Especially Lanfear , who had many enemies even among the Forsaken.<br /><br />Graendal also mentioned that Semirhage was the only Forsaken with enough Talent to Heal Sammael's scar. This implies that none of the others can Heal more than a bruise or a minor injury. Healing stilling requires complex Healing , so far as we can see.<br /><br />Now LiTN ... regarding our other debate. Chesmal mentions that Faolain is shielded somehow. We know that Moridin shielded Faolain and that he uses the TP exclusively. Chesmal did not mention any reduction in strength or potential but rather the presence of a shield. <br /><br />We have only had Cyndane's POV once - at the Cleansing. Her POV tells me that her strength reduction is permanent. Not anything like ... &quot;She was stronger than Cyndane was before the Finns held her. If only she could break through the shield which was woven on her.&quot; Wishful thinking I know , but Cyndane does seem very bitter at her situation and expresses very little hope - esp. with regards to regaining more strength.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">A One Power researcher<br />Defender of Lanfear<br />Grand Ninja-Nae'blis to be feared <br />Original Warder to Isa <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br />New Warder to Nossie <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />Toy to Seriana <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/winky.gif" border="0" /><br />Mystified by a Fan <br />Bonded Phelix - I was young, it happened so fast.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-30 06:19:55
subject: <b>problems</b>
body:
First of all the reason Lanfear would be reincarnated but Asmodean wouldnt is simple, the DO doesnt know that Lanfear is the one who put him there.If he knew that he would also be aware that Lanfear would have joined Rand and destroyed him and would have dealt with her long before.Lanfear's power loss and new appearance could have been a trade in exchange for freedom.Thus Moraine could have made a similar trade and would not have to be part of the reincarnated Lanfear to come back.


created: 2005-05-31 02:10:44
subject: <b>the finn thing</b>
body:
I think its the best bet to say she is the way she is because of making a deal witht eh finns. So why not Moriane as well? I have an idea.<br /><br />When Moriane went threw the rings she saw her entire life, and knew what she must do to keep Rand from becoming a tool of Lanfear, so why not also how to keep from being killed, or maimed, or anything like that when in the finns land? Possibly the rings told her that another disaster would acure if she made a deal, or if she gave the others ideas about how to rescue her, like maybe Rand and Lan would have tried to save her, and that wasn't what she wanted. <br /><br />We know that Moriane at least was probebly stilled, because other then death that is the only thing that seperates the bond of Aes Sedia and Warder. We know she isn't dead, so stilled is the only logical conclusion. So why not Lanfear as well? And Lanfear never went threw the rings, so she doesn't know maybe not to make a deal witht eh finns.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Journey to the Tiger Sea,<br />Where legends die and stories be,<br />Where royalty rise and fall,<br />And Wotmania rules them all.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-31 02:22:36
subject: <b>Re: Problems....</b>
body:
Moridin tells us at the Forsaken Tea Party in WH that Cyndane tells him <i>everything</i>. This would include her involvement with Asmo and their plots together, I would assume. The timing of her divulging this knowledge would be after she was resurrected, (if she died), and this might be the reason she is mindtrapped.<br /><br />To sidious, Marillin is the one that tells us about Falion being shielded somehow, but it's rather ambiguous. Obviously she can tell it's a shield of some sort rather than her being burned out or stilled. She can sense the ability to channel is still there, but other than that, there's not much to go on.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-31 04:59:48
subject: <b>2nd time I had to post this.</b>
body:
From all the information we received about the Finns, mainly from matts experience in Rhuid and Matt, Moiraine, and Rands in Tear. Conclusion 2 or more people can enter at same time and never see another person there. (reference from TDR when Rand walks out after Matt and then Moiraine shows up). From some of the legends that bards tell you can also determine that time doesn't effect finnland the same way it does randland. (something about someone walking out 50 years later with a neverending sack of gold) Also from the battle at Shadar Logoth, Lanfear/Cyndane makes a reference to her time in Finnland, not her death, (about how no woman could be stronger than her, it was impossible even before the finns. Now take into fact that Matt tried to go back into the door in tear and walked through and nothing happened. Means you can't go back. Door in Rhuid, when matt talks to finns they told him he should have set terms before making bargain, since no terms where made, they will make them for you. Matt didn't leave through the door in Rhuid, which means you dont need the door to get out.<br /><br />From all that information you can determine, <br />1. Moiraine and Lanfear never saw each other upon falling through doorway. They where immediately seperated.<br /><br />2. Lanfear made a bargain with the finns to get out, part of that bargain, took away her beauty and some of her power in the OP. Real question is did she gain anything other than her freedom.<br /><br />3. Moiraine hasn't left the finnland, possibly because she refuses to give up what they want for her freedom, or Part of Lanfears bargain was to keep moiraine there.<br /><br />4. You can't go there more than once, from the Moiraines trip to Rhuid circles she would have seen Lanfear falling through the door to enter. Which means thats Lanfears first trip to finnland for all you believers that think Lanfear went there before and thats why she so strong now.


created: 2005-05-31 12:56:39
subject: <b>A bit of a correction</b>
body:
From Cyndane we know that she was held by both Finn.<br /><br />Also the doorways need not be the only way to get to and from the Finn's world.<br /><br />Lanfear seemed well versed in traveling to other places. We know the doorways that we know of can only be used once per person. Or we assume so at least (however as we know many of the ter'angral may not be used as originally intended)<br /><br />To me it throws suspicion on her having died. <br /><br />Her own thoughts being centered on her time in Finn land rather than some other event for comparison to me is telling. <br /><br />Here is another possibility. <br /><br />Moiraine may have been somehow responsible for the reduction in power and appearance. Possibly to prevent future attraction to Rand. <br /><br />I would think however if this were the case Mo would gain some mention. However if there were separated Lanfear may not know about it being Mo's fault.<br /><br />Like I said speculation on how can run the gambit. <br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">See that Seagull in the sky Im just glad cows dont fly.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-31 15:38:26
subject: <b>Dont agree with the theory</b>
body:
First of all, as it was pointed out, she has new body. We saw her real body (not Selene image) when she removed her disguise in tSR. Now, as Cyndane, she has a new body and the theory of her escaping Finns does not explain how.<br /><br />As for the people saying she got her old body and stregth form the Finns in the first place - I don't agree. We would have learned about that long time ago - from LTT POVs or some of Forsaken POVs.<br />


created: 2005-05-31 16:38:29
subject: <b>Thought from another PoV</b>
body:
What if lets say the Dragon went there!  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />  Would everything he had to give up to escape still have to be repaid when he was born again?  If Lanfear was killed by the Finns she would have gotten her full strength back.  She would not have said the person was stronger than her even before the Finns held her, She would have said before the Finns had killed her.


created: 2005-05-31 16:57:02
subject: <b>Another PoV</b>
body:
I've heard mention of other forsaken entering Finnland to retrieve Lanfear.  Could it be possible that slayer did instead.  After all we know he can use the tower of Gen'ji even in the dream.  Something birgitte told perrin was near impossible to get out of in the flesh.


created: 2005-05-31 17:32:56
subject: <b>LANFEARS POWER</b>
body:
I don't know if someone has posted this thought yet or not because there are so many to read through...<br /><br />My thoughts on why lanfear has a reduction of power has something to do with the finns. I think when she fell through the door with Moraine that even though they went together, 1st rule broken, and that they were using the one power, 2nd rule broken,  that the finns still let them have three wishes or questions whichever it was. (not sure)<br />We all know that these aren't really recieved the way the person wants from Mats escapade with them. So maybe they granted her a wish in a way she didn't expect. Also I am sure that whatever she did wish for was touched by the DO, 3rd rule broken. <br />Also I would like to add that Moraine is smarter than Lanfear concerning the finns. I think she is still thinking of her three wishes or questions in a way to try to help herself escape. Then again I can't remember if she already went through that doorway or not. I know she went through one but did she go through both? Anyone remember? If she did then that would be the 4th rule broken.  Any comments? Flame Away.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Egwene Fan  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/egwene.gif" border="0" /><br />Elaida will fall!!! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /> <br />Egwene is meant to rule the White Tower and even Rand will know her fury!! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-31 19:37:27
subject: <b>The Rules</b>
body:
The rules no longer apply to that doorway.  1st the people that created that doorway, made a bargain with finns by accessing the Tower of Gen'ji, so once that doorway was destroyed the rules no longer apply.  Courage to strengthen, fire to blind, music to daze, iron to bind.  Thats how they have to deal with the finns.


created: 2005-06-01 03:45:38
subject: <b>A few more things....</b>
body:
This is from a booksigning at Dunwoody, Georgia; 9 October, 1996, report by Erica Sadun <br /><br /><i>Q: What was going on in Aelfland when Mat went round and round and round the same location? Were they travelling in time?</i><br /><br /><i>A: &quot;Not travelling in time.  The physical laws of nature differ. Mentioning the DO here is bad luck. In Aelfland, it is *REALLY* bad. You can not go to Aelfland in TAR (similar to stedding).&quot;</i><br /><br />Just something I remembered and found for the subject of debate. Time and distance are very different in Finnland, and it dawned on me that it might very well be impossible to Travel into or out of that realm for those reasons. And you cannot go there in TAR, although I suppose entering TAR from there may be possible.<br /><br />Also the little blurb about it being &quot;really bad&quot; to mention the DO in Aelfland. (Lanfear says she was held by both, you may recall.) So, what are the consequences for mentioning the DO? What if they find out you are actually one of his minions? <br />------------------------------------------------------------<br />And from a QotW:<br /><br />Question: <br /><br />What does the Dark One view as the worst punishment he can inflict on his minions: Killing them as painfully as possible? Balefire? Mindtrap? Being continually resurrected to suffer at his hand for eternity? Something we haven't seen yet?<br /><br /><br />Robert Jordan Answers:<br /><br />The Dark One doesn't care about his minions sufficiently to invest much time in their punishment except as it serves to correct their behavior or as object lesson to others, nor is there much in the way of gradation. <b>Simple failure and outright betrayal might be punished equally, or one might result in death and the other in becoming an object lesson or in something else. (The mindtrap, by the way, could be called an object lesson only to the one so trapped; remember, none of the Forsaken know who is mindtrapped except Moridin and those who are trapped.) The decision, death or object lesson or something else, normally would be simply a matter of whether or not he believed there was any point to an object lesson and/or whether or not he felt there was really any further use in the individual</b>. Or, for that matter, made for reasons unknowable to a human mind. Remember, the Dark One is NOT human and thinking of him in human terms just doesn't work.<br /><br />But he also operates under a constraint that did not exist in the Age of Legends. At that time, about 3% of the population could learn to channel to some extent, though not all chose to -- the training program took time, and being able to channel carried with it certain obligations that not everyone wanted to undertake -- but that still meant there were, at a minimum, hundreds of thousands of people in the world who could channel, and more likely millions. A large pool of possible recruits. Break a tool or decide it isn't working right and throw it out, because there is an endless supply of similar tools waiting on the shelf. That might be said to have been his attitude. In the here-and-now of the books, that figure is about 1%, and of that 1%, very, very few have any idea that they could learn to channel, much less have any training at all. Here-and-now, the pool of possible recruits is tiny.<br /><br />Also, while the Forsaken themselves have realized that these primitives have discovered how to do things with the Power that they themselves cannot, or perhaps can once they learn how but never dreamed of doing until they found that the weaves existed here-and-now, they still think of people in the here-and-now as primitives, and their attitudes filter through to the Dark One, who believes that his people from the age of Legends are in all practical ways better -- for which read better trained, more capable, and thus better able to serve him efficiently and effectively -- than the people of the present time. And he is right. In a way. They are certainly better trained, with a much wider knowledge, at least in some areas. Some of their skills are absolutely useless in the society they are forced to live in. Aginor was a genius in biology and genetics, but in this world, he had no way to make the tools to make the tools to make the tools&#8230;. Well, you get the idea. Pity the poor chip designer dropped into the seventeenth century.<br /><br />In any event, the Dark One tries to conserve his resources, using and reusing those he might have killed himself, or ordered killed, in a time where there were thousands to equal them.<br />------------------------------------------------------------<br /><br />I highlighted the section that I believe applies here. Failure and/or betrayal has several possible punishments from the DO. Asmo, Moggy and Lanfear fit both of those categories, IMO, and we assume the DO dealt Asmo his &quot;final death&quot; promise. <br /><br />Lanfear and Moggy apparently fall into the &quot;object lesson&quot; or &quot;something else&quot; category, with the mindtraps. Of these two, which is the bigger failure or traitor? Moggy got caught and taught the girls some useful weaves, true. But Lanfear plotted to overthrow the DO and used Asmo as Rand's teacher to that end. To my eyes, Lanfear was the bigger traitor of the two.<br /><br />In another interview, RJ confirmed that Moggy was raped, (among other things), by Shaidar Haran, while he flat out stated that Lanfear was not. So were thay punished the same or was perhaps Lanfear given a &quot;something else&quot; lesson in humility as the 'gars received?  <br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2005-06-01 11:02:15
subject: <b>Well</b>
body:
Based on those comments from RJ I doubt that she escaped through TAR. However you have increased my belief that she didnt die.<br /><br />It looks like Moggy has fallen far while Lanny still has some level of autonomy. I think the thing about Lanny telling Moridin everything is more than likely what Moridin believes but is not the truth. How many times have we seen something like this happen. Where one character takes information to be the truth only to have it stood on its head. Especially the Forsaken.<br /><br />At anyrate I still am convinced that Amys comment was meant to foreshadow that neither Lanny or Mo had died.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">See that Seagull in the sky Im just glad cows dont fly.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-06-02 17:38:33
subject: <b>Striving for height</b>
body:
I wonder if Moiraine and Lanfear's struggle into the Finn world may have caused the two to be intermingled or mind swapped or something of that nature.Moiraine had less power than Lanfear and was shorter as well. Maybe she will return taller with Lanfear's power. lol.


created: 2005-06-13 14:39:44
subject: <b>Accident or just freaky ....</b>
body:
It is also mentioned that Cyndaene had silver hair as well. I don't know if RJ ment to make them so similar, but it's kind of weird ....<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;What do you mean, why's it got to be built?&quot; he said. &quot;It's a bypass. You've got to build bypasses.&quot; - Mr Prosser, head builder</font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-27 22:57:07
subject: <b><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /></b>
body:
totally agree.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Journey to the Tiger Sea,<br />Where legends die and stories be,<br />Where royalty rise and fall,<br />And Wotmania rules them all.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-27 23:11:55
subject: <b>I like it</b>
body:
I had never really thought about the differences between a weave of fire on the basis of who wove it. I always thought that men for instance were better at fire because they were stronger in fire. But your theory rightly proves that this is not the be all end all of that.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">The Upper Peninsula...the Two Rivers of this world... <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-28 11:31:23
subject: <b>Just one note</b>
body:
In the Cleansing, Saidin could not be used as the conduit because Mashadar would have destroyed the conduit along with the taint. since the conduit contained the taint.<br /><br />The Cleansing would not have occured.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-28 13:23:34
subject: <b>Another Implication</b>
body:
You can create pools of The Power, ala tEotW. This is what Rand started doing at Shagar Logoth I think<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Democracy - two wolves and a sheep deciding what to have for dinner</font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-28 15:36:39
subject: <b>Quick question</b>
body:
Don't have books to hand, where does it say that Saidin and Saidar repel each other? I know they can't mix, but I didn't think they repelled each other. Like if you put a cup on a table, they don't mix but they don't repel like magnets. They just sit there.<br /><br />Also, where does it say that weaves of the power (Saidar or Saidin) always mix? Your analogy of a river bank being made of water is not the same thing. I always thought of channeling as making a cloth. You have your warp and woof, different threads crossing each other to make a pattern. The threads are the same material but different colour, they come together to make something. Channeling is weaving flows made out of the same thing, but come together to make something different. They don't mix like water and water would.<br /><br />I always thought that combining weaves of Saidar and Saidin make a weave more efficient and create something better. Like a mix of copper and tin make brass. Or iron and carbon (?) make steel. Both combinations make something better than before.<br /><br />Just some quick thoughts after a long day at work....


created: 2005-05-28 15:38:51
subject: <b>Bit more</b>
body:
In the second paragraph I wrote, was talking about the same power mixing, Saidar and Saidar or Saidin and Saidin.<br />Just wanting to clarify my point. Been a long day and very tired.<br /><br />


created: 2005-05-28 15:59:53
subject: <b>harrymonk-that explains why you missed</b>
body:
Rand`s POV in WH. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> You`re too tired.<br /><br />At the Cleansing, he thought of saidin pushing against saidar, keeping them separated, and causing saidar to flow faster to Shadar Logoth until the siphoning effect took place; ie Mashadar pulling the taint, and them destroying each other.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-28 17:03:55
subject: <b>the weaving thing someone mentioned.</b>
body:
In weaving a lot of times you do not just thred a string threw the weave, but use a special kinda weaving tool to pull strands to the place you want them. If both Saidar and Saidin are like weaving then they could act as that tool to each other, helping to form more unique patterns.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Journey to the Tiger Sea,<br />Where legends die and stories be,<br />Where royalty rise and fall,<br />And Wotmania rules them all.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-28 17:04:30
subject: <b>Excellent job</b>
body:
I don't know if you're entirely right, but very well reasoned.You got a lot of milage out of relatively little information, because we haven't seen the two forms of the Power consciously worked that much.<br /><br />If you're wrong on anything, it's because you had insuficient data.<br /><br />One small addition.  I think somewhere it says that som of the best work Aes Sedai accomplished was using men and women together.  I don't know if they have to repel each other; it's enough if one of the two is made harder, and the other weaves can work around it.  This using one form as a sort of skeleton, or template, could allow for incredibly complex and directed weaves by the user of the other half of the power.<br /><br />But I think my point is just implicit in your theory.  I had never thought of it before.


created: 2005-05-28 19:33:23
subject: <b>Excellent ideas and reasoning</b>
body:
I particularly like the idea that with one half limiting the other, they can both do more.  Like being tethered in the water limits where you can swim, but you don't have to worry about going to far, and have more freedom within the limits.  I'm also thinking about how partially covering the nozzle of a hose can increase the force of the spray.  Your explanation makes excellent sense.  I wonder if that is what Herid Fel would call &quot;sound priciples in natural or high philosophy&quot;?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-29 04:28:27
subject: <b>Congratulations on your theory</b>
body:
I liked your theory a lot. I would like to state something about male and female channelers though.<br /><br />One of the implications you write about involves a male channeler linking with a female channeler and vice versa. I would like to point out that male channelers cannot initiate a link. Only women can.<br />


created: 2005-05-29 14:00:46
subject: <b>Replies</b>
body:
Thanks for the comments people.<br /><br /><b>Bengal Meara and Yooper</b><br />Thanks <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><b>Jofraz</b><br />Yes , I believe you are partially correct. Rand explains that he uses saidar for the conduit because the taint needed to be contained - which saidin could not do. However , saidar was still necessary to make a conduit to contain saidin and the taint. A saidin conduit could hardly contain a saidin flow to Shadar Logoth<br /><br /><b>Bigerich</b><br /><br />You are absolutely correct. I unfortunately wrote my theory in a bit of haste and forgot two important implications. One was the eye of the world. Moiraine said all the channelers in the world couldn't make a teaspoon of saidar without men. This proves that the containing effects of saidar and saidin are essential for some deeds.<br /><br />Another aspect I forgot was how I believe Healing of stilling has been affected. I believe Nynaeve cannot Heal women fully because her saidar weave interacted and mingled with Siuan and Leanne's saidar conduit. Therefore it was weaker. Unlike Flinn whose saidin weave does not affect the conduits of saidar which he Healed.<br /><br /><b>Harrymonk</b><br /><br />The fact that Rand says the saidar conduit at the Cleansing presses the saidin to flowing faster , indicates that there may be some real polarity. It is a matter of discussion because we haven't seen that much saidin-saidar interaction.<br /><br /><b>Reptile</b><br /><br />Yes , we are probably saying similar things.<br /><br /><b>Cannoli</b><br /><br />Thanks , man. I agree. The limiting qualities of both allow both to be stronger together. <br /><br /><b>Mhwadhi Debharu</b><br /><br />Yes , I know. I never said that men initiate the link. I just said that a male Aes Sedai would want to link with a female. The first step requires the woman. Thanks for the compliment though.<br /><br />Any other comments are more than welcome. I just feel bad that I left out those two important implications regarding Healing stilling and the Eye of the World.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">A One Power researcher<br />Defender of Lanfear<br />Grand Ninja-Nae'blis to be feared <br />Original Warder to Isa <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br />New Warder to Nossie <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />Toy to Seriana <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/winky.gif" border="0" /><br />Mystified by a Fan <br />Bonded Phelix - I was young, it happened so fast.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-31 13:15:31
subject: <b>Bravo</b>
body:
Particularly because I know my first question after seeing the actual linking of men and women was how does the strength increase if the two powers are woven separately.  I think this answers that question really well.  Good job.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where did these Skimmers come from?  I mean if they didn't want to read the book they could have just Traveled to another author.  Why risk arriving at the wrong destination?  Why risk falling into darkness?</font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-31 14:46:05
subject: <b>Great Theory</b>
body:
I totally agree with this theory, except on the point that Saidar and Saidin reple each other. Other than that, I like how you used the examples of how Saidin was used to contain, or route Saidar. I have one point to make though: Male and Female weaves for a particular effect are not, in essence, the same. If they were the same, it would suggest that the source for male and female be divided into categories, such as fire, earth, ect..., and when channelers draw the source, they do so from each of the 'parts' of the source. <br /><br />If the source had categories, there would be no need for different weaves. Additionally, there is no mention at all of categories of the source, so we must assume that male and female weaves must differ only in the arrangement of weaves. These arrangements are what constitute the effects, such as the &quot;pillar&quot; to route Saidar, or the conduit to cleanse Saidin.<br /><br />Overall, I agree with the theory. My only comments are on minor points, and I vote Yes.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;What do you mean, why's it got to be built?&quot; he said. &quot;It's a bypass. You've got to build bypasses.&quot; - Mr Prosser, head builder</font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-31 22:26:51
subject: <b>if it where mearly the weaves.....</b>
body:
If it where mearly the way their weaved and the fact males can't see, then I don't think Rand would have been able to use the female part to cleanse the male, because he would not have known how to weave using the female way.....<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Journey to the Tiger Sea,<br />Where legends die and stories be,<br />Where royalty rise and fall,<br />And Wotmania rules them all.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-06-07 14:32:03
subject: <b>Sorry...</b>
body:
The point I was trying to get at was that the weaves couldn't be, in esssence, the same. My own personal idea is that the weaves have different 'wavelengths' (like light), but are different enough in Saidin and Saidar that they must be woven into different flows. Robert Jordan did get a degree in physics, so perhaps he used some prior knowledge to describe the Source, but that idea is for another time.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;What do you mean, why's it got to be built?&quot; he said. &quot;It's a bypass. You've got to build bypasses.&quot; - Mr Prosser, head builder</font><p></p>


created: 2005-06-08 08:34:11
subject: <b>I don't know if I agree completely....</b>
body:
although I'll admit I like most of what you have put together in this theory. <br /><br />From the BWB: <br />&quot;Channeling draws on <b>threads</b> of the One Power and uses them <b>singly or in combination in a weave</b> to accomplish the particular task at hand.&quot; (emphasis is mine)<br /><br />This is from Egwene's pov concerning the ward around Callandor: <br />&quot;Cautiously, she reached out with the Power, probing at whatever held and shielded the sword. Her probe touched - something - and stopped. She could sense which of the Five Powers had been used here. Air, and Fire, and Spirit. She could trace the intricate weave made by saidar, set with a strength that amazed her. There were gaps in that weave, spaces where her probe should slide through. When she tried, it was like fighting the strongest part of the weave head on. It hit her then, what she was trying to force a way through, and she let her probe vanish. <b>Half that wall had been woven using saidar, the other half, the part she could not sense or touch, had been made with saidin. That was not it exactly - <i>the wall was all of one piece</i> - but it was close enough</b>. <i>A stone wall stops a blind woman as surely as one who can see it</i>.&quot; (emphasis is mine)<br /><br />And this is from Elayne's pov when they are using the Bowl of the Winds: <br />&quot;Suddenly she realized something else. <b>That ever-changing lacework of saidar bent itself around something else, something unseen that made the column solid</b>. She swallowed, hard. The Bowl was drawing saidin as well as saidar.&quot; (emphasis is mine)<br />And further down that page is this: <br />&quot;She worked the flows, and abruptly spiderwebs of saidar blossomed from the unseen top of the column, like uneven spokes of a wheel, almost a solid fan to the south, sparser fans reaching north and northwest, single lacy spokes stretching in other directions. They changed as they grew, never the same from one moment to the next, spreading across the sky, farther and farther, until the ends of the pattern also passed out of sight. Not just saidar there either, Elayne was certain; <b>in places that spiderweb caught and curved around something she could not see</b>. Still Caire wove, and the column danced to her bidding, saidar and saidin together, and the spiderweb altered and flowed like a lopsided kaleidoscope spinning across the heavens, vanishing in the distance, on and on and on.&quot; (emphasis is mine)<br /><br />The point I am trying to show is that the two halves of the Power are complementary and conflicting like the BWB states. While they may not exactly mix, as you pointed out, they do however seem to be able to combine in a way that Egwene nor Elayne is able to describe. <br /><br />To me it appears much like the strands in thread, a rope, or cable. By twisting around each other, they add strength that wouldn't be there otherwise. So it appears the two halves can adhere to each other like opposing poles of a magnet, to form a strengthening bond, and not just repel like the same poles of a magnet would. <br /><br />I think this explains why Egwene says the wall was all of one piece, even though it was made from the two different halves of the Power. And why Elayne says the lacework bent itself around something that made it solid, as well as the spiderweb curving around something unseen. They are seeing threads made of saidin and saidar twisted together, complementing each other by adhering and making the threads stronger. <br /><br />What Rand does at the Cleansing I would say is just the opposite, using them in conflict with each other, the repelling nature between the two.<br /><br />At least that's the way I see it. Still, I liked the whole idea you came up with. It made me start thinking and go back to do some reading and research. And that's always a good thing. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Thumbs up from me.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2005-06-10 10:20:12
subject: <b>I dont like this theory</b>
body:
&quot;d. The giant Ash&#8217;aman-Aes Sedai circles of 72 won&#8217;t have a special advantage regarding Power dynamics. Their strength lies in the fact that they have the combined strength of 72 channelers which implies incredible strength , and also because those who face them will only be able to see one of the two halves (depending on whether it is a male or female)&quot;<br /><br />It distinctly says somewhere that the strongest circles are the ones with near equal numbers of male &amp; female channelers. I think it's in the glossary of crown of swords. Obviously there IS an advantage to having a 36-36 circle as opposed to a 10-62. Obviously there IS an advantage to combining powers from a dynamics perspective.


created: 2005-09-25 18:45:33
subject: <b>In response to the post above...</b>
body:
Actually, thirty six men and thirty six women cannot form a circle, now, thirty five men and thirty seven women can, but except for a few special cases (the Great Circle of 72 not being among them) there must always be at least one more woman than man in a circle.  Also, I believe that the reason a balanced circle is strongest is because it has the highest number of men... think about it logically.  If men are stronger in the One Power than women, then logically, having more men in the circle would make it stronger.  Therefore, the strongest circles are, by definition, those which have as many men as possible.  Which are, by definition, closest to balance since you must always have atleast one more woman than men.  Having one less man than women is the closest balance you can have, and it has as many men as possible.  Therefore, the Great Circle of 72, with thirty five men and thirty sevem women is potentially the strongest circle.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Samshaidar Mhael<br />The Leader of the Destroyers of Shadow <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-blue.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-red.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/borg.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-green.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-purple.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />I am immortal, I have inside me blood of kings <br />I have no rival, no man can be my equal<br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2006-07-27 21:59:16
subject: <b>polarity</b>
body:
When the diameter of a pipe is decreased, the velocity of water flowing through the pipe increases but the water isn't repeled by the pipe. Rand's saidar conduit could have had a gradualy decreasing diameter. I think there have been too many examples of saidin and saidar being interwoven seamlessly for them to repel each other.


created: 2007-12-16 22:12:34
subject: <b>Agree with most of this</b>
body:
but this part doesn't ring true to me:<br /><br />d. The giant Ash&#8217;aman-Aes Sedai circles of 72 won&#8217;t have a special advantage regarding Power dynamics. Their strength lies in the fact that they have the combined strength of 72 channelers which implies incredible strength , and also because those who face them will only be able to see one of the two halves (depending on whether it is a male or female)<br /><br />If that were true then why does RJ point out that balanced circles were more potent than others, even if the individual channelers weren't as powerful?  And in a Circle of 72 there are more women (who are not as strong) thus there is something more going on here.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I'm a Domani Drag Queen who went to the Black tower.  Leane is my 3rd cousin twice removed and I showed her how to use make-up!<br /><br />I don't deal in absolutes or spell check!</font><p></p>


created: 2005-06-04 04:55:27
subject: <b>I get to be the first ....</b>
body:
I'm glad to see you decided not to side-step around Perrin and co. making it safely through the Ways, with Machin Shin only catching up to them at the last minute when it was too late. And this does actually coincide with your idea about Rand being the more powerful target due to Fain's more concentrated hatred of him as well.<br /><br />The quote of: &quot;al'Thor&quot;, echoing through the Ways ties in very nicely, and the evidence from the books seem to point to the Black Wind wanting to get at Rand so much that it appears to try to exit the Ways to get him. <br /><br />It's also notable that Liandrin managed to safely navigate the Ways with the wondergirls to Falme without encountering Machin Shin, so this could add some extra weight to your idea, too.<br /><br />These encounters between Rand and the Black Wind come before he takes his unhealing wound from Ishy at Falme. It would be interesting to see if the contamination from the Shadow would change how Machin Shin reacts to him. Would he now be a &quot;kindred spirit&quot;?<br /><br />Good thoughts, and I give you a thumbs up.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2005-06-04 12:13:14
subject: <b>I like it</b>
body:
Generally,  I like it.  I had never thought of the Black Wind as taking on certain aspects of a person's soul.  <br /><br />However, I don't think that the wind completely severed Fain's ties to the boys.  Like you said, I think it took on only his NEED to find them.  He can still sense them in later books, but there is no longer the compulsion to go after them.  There is still a tie between Fain and the boy's, albeit, a much less strong tie.


created: 2005-06-05 14:35:20
subject: <b>Very Nice</b>
body:
I always thought that Machin Shin took on fains hatred and OCD of finding the taveren but i assumed that it was a sharing of the hatred not a complete theft of the ability. ive been wondering why he acted so differently in TGH. Nicely done. you know that might be one way to get armies to Shayol Ghul. have the 3 tav's stand at the farthest away waygate to draw MS and have the armies pour out of the Shayol Ghul way gate. that way the DO wont suspect/sense gateways being woven to bring people...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rand.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perrin.gif" border="0" /><br />I don't fail. I succeed in finding what doesn't work. <br /><br /><font color="00ff33">Official Sponsor of the Melindhra Fan Club</font></font><p><a href="http://www.illwillpress.com" target="_blank">Feel the Squirley Wrath!!!!</a></p><p></p>


created: 2005-06-06 12:05:04
subject: <b>But his need to hunt had actually increased</b>
body:
As you quoted he said he thought he was finally free. However he was suprised to find the need to hunt had actually increased.<br /><br />The language of that passage makes you think he needed to hunt the boys but what I think is by being joined with Mordeth needed to hunt the dagger. <br /><br />We have seen since that he doesnt so much need to hunt them as much as he plain hates them for what has been done to him.<br /> <br />This theory is quite nice I think you need to expand a bit and explain how fain's need for the dagger fits his behaviour as well.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">See that Seagull in the sky Im just glad cows dont fly.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-06-06 17:45:26
subject: <b>Nice work</b>
body:
A well-put together addition to your previous theory, and very believable and logical (whereas the link between Fain, Mordeth, and the dagger is all speculation, since we just don't have enough facts up to this point, IMO).<br /><br />Nice work and thanks for the read!


created: 2005-06-07 05:40:52
subject: <b>Perrin</b>
body:
Hello.<br />This is a interesting theory, but for me to buy it you have to explain why Machin Shin wasn't at the waygate in Tear when Perrin left. With all three ta'veren in Tear it should have been trying to bash the door in.<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bobbafett.gif" border="0" />


created: 2005-06-07 12:28:38
subject: <b>good point madmax</b>
body:
the Black Wind has consumed many many many whole souls in it's existence, it only took a small part of Fain's. This means the need the Black Wind shows is only a small percentile of it's overall 'personality'. true the need is strong, but perhaps the Black Wind doesn't always feel the need, or onyl sparodically, or perhaps now not at all, it has been a long time afterall....<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">idealism not pragmatism</font><p></p>


created: 2005-06-19 14:38:56
subject: <b>to caychris</b>
body:
while the dagger is important to fain, i don't think it gave the same NEED drive that the boys did. remember he goes for two books not having his dagger, preferring to manipulate niall into sending WC into the TR than going straight for his dagger<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">idealism not pragmatism</font><p></p>


created: 2005-06-04 10:00:21
subject: <b>Nice</b>
body:
I agree. The seals were made before the DO's counterstrike, with untainted saidin and saidar, so it's not tainted saidin that's degrading them, it's something else. Logically it's the DO. <br /><br />As a by point, if it were because of tainted saidin (which it's not) now that saidin is cleaned, would the seals not degrade further? Similarly, will the Ways get healthier?<br /><br />Also, I believe that they are not going to simply re-seal the DO, they are gonna completely cover him up like it was before the Bore. Not just simply replace seals, they'll get rid of them and completely imprison him like the Creator did.<br /><br />I'm rambling.<br /><br />Nice work though.


created: 2005-06-06 15:41:09
subject: <b>good ideas</b>
body:
the idea that the DO is weakening the seals is a good one, esp considering the binary perception that people use to explain the universe...i.e. everything has a polar opposite...the TP is the opposite of the OP, and hence has the ability to destroy items wrought with the OP that are otherwise indestructible.<br /><br />the idea that the TP, unfiltered, is what the taint really is is also a good idea. it actually complements something that i wrote (that i'm not sure will get on the forum, but hopefully it will) that the TP is in fact the opposite of the OP, that the DO is just the first entity to have discovered it and it's driven him mad with power and greed, and that's why he wants to have the Forsaken get at it through him. he wants to regulate its use. he's trying to protect his tools for future use. and, allowing male AS to channel the OP through the TP would erode their minds, creating (of a sort) lots of little crazy dark ones (the hundred companions that went loony) running around wrecking the place....<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">___________________________<br />i'm a WoThead <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br />___________________________<br />When all else fails, laugh.<br />___________________________<br /><br /><i>Tai'Shar Charleston, S.C.!</i></font><p></p>


created: 2005-06-06 19:22:48
subject: <b>I always figured it was saidin.</b>
body:
I alway figured it was saidin that corrupted the seals. Much like the saidin created Ways were deteriorating. Anything that had used saidin or made by it after the DO's counterstrike was flawed by the taint. What that could mean since the taint is supposedly gone now, I don't know.


created: 2005-06-06 19:26:45
subject: <b>Corellary...</b>
body:
Very interesting theory.<br /><br />May I suggest that you theory could explain the evil feel when one touches the male adam. It could be because it is in nature made of True Power touched saidin aka black cuendillar, saidin-made cuendillar.<br /><br />Just a thought.<br /><br />First time poster... but not for long.


created: 2005-06-07 05:10:02
subject: <b>Trin</b>
body:
The Ways were made after the Breaking by male Aes Sedai that had not yet gone loopy, made with tainted Saidin after the DO's counter strike. The seals were made before the Dark One's counterstroke with untainted Saidin.


created: 2005-06-07 14:39:36
subject: <b>Good Theory</b>
body:
Nice theory. I like that it actually makes sense, unlike a lot of theories out there, and doesn't use pointless quotes, and then jump to a crazy conclusion. However, I have never fully beleive that the taint simply destroys barriers between lives. There are just too many references to how people actually did go crazy, for example, the Asha'man who thought there were spiders beneath his skin, and this doesn't seem to fall under corruption either. On the other hand, I like how you reasoned that the TP is what counters the source. Here is an irrelevant point though, and this has nothing to do with the theory. It is mentioned once when we are seing Morridin for the first few times, that he &quot;tears a hole in the patteren&quot; to travel. This statement is made so casually that I can't help but wonder if this fact is of importance.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;What do you mean, why's it got to be built?&quot; he said. &quot;It's a bypass. You've got to build bypasses.&quot; - Mr Prosser, head builder</font><p></p>


created: 2005-06-07 14:49:51
subject: <b>the DO is an anathema to the Pattern</b>
body:
to diomedes:<br /><br />and so is outside the Pattern, perhaps as the TP comes from the DO, it's weaves has effects on the Pattern. when Moridin makes a gateway the TP corrupts and destroys the Pattern in some way to make the gateway, this would correspond quite nicely with my ideas on the TP being destructive. so maybe not as pointless as you thought?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">idealism not pragmatism</font><p></p>


created: 2005-06-08 14:43:45
subject: <b>I agree</b>
body:
That would make a lot of sense. It would also coincide with the fact that it is stated &quot;here was no closer to the Dark One's prison than any where else, but here you could feel it the most&quot;. That means the DO is outside the pattern, and thus the TP is from an 'outside' force. Perhaps Rand will have to 'seal up' everywhere to trap the DO? Anyhow, I give this theory a thumbs up.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;What do you mean, why's it got to be built?&quot; he said. &quot;It's a bypass. You've got to build bypasses.&quot; - Mr Prosser, head builder</font><p></p>


created: 2005-08-01 21:48:49
subject: <b>...sorry, but one small problem</b>
body:
I must admit, I was nodding my head like a nerd 90% of the way through this theory. I think it is a great proposition that you are making. However, there is one problem. You state that the DO used the True Power to taint saidin. The only problem with this is, how could Rand have removed the taint with only saidin and saidar? Also, even though you say the DO has the ability to stop &quot;touching&quot; something, he obviously, under your theory, has not stopped touching the male half of the source because saidin still &quot;feels&quot; evil and sickening. Thus, there is a paradox. Channelers in the AoL barely &quot;defeated&quot; the DO. They were using saidin and saidar to make the seals, which, in the end, failed. No one could remove the equivalent of the taint from the seals, so, it is unlikely that Rand could remove the taint if it was truly made by the True Power, otherwise, he could remove the taint from every seal left.<br />I might be missing a few points, but your theory fails at a certain point, which is sad because this theory is very exciting. But, alas, when we reach the point of the cleansing of saidin, your theory stops going anywhere and contradicts itself. Very good idea though.<br />If I'm missing something and you want to correct me, please do, I really want to see this theory work.


created: 2005-06-14 07:52:57
subject: <b>Have to disagree</b>
body:
I pointed out in my theory &quot;Who is Slayer's Patron?&quot;, why I believe the patron must be Osan'gar.<br /><br />One main point against Demandred and pro Osan'gar is the consistence between the patron's and Osan'gar's behaviour.<br /><br />The most important concern of the patron isn't Rand's death.<br />That Slayer didn't kill him is just &quot;a pity&quot;, and after the failed attempt Slayer shall not try it again for the time being.<br /><br />Because for the patron it's even more important that no one learns of his intention. <br />Therefore he is disguised and orders Slayer to keep quite.<br /><br />On the other hand, we learn that Demandred had already ordered someone, namely the DF Asha'man, to kill Rand and did this without any disguise, although of course they could tell another Forsaken of his order as well (and they actually betrayed it to Moridin).<br /><br />That is inconsistent; the wariness of the patron doesn't fit with the arrogant Demandred.<br /><br />Osan'gar on the other hand, is very afraid of Moridin which would explain the unusual disguise of the patron and his words.<br /><br />Plus, Aginor already faced Rand in EotW, lost &amp; died, and shows at the Forsaken Tea Party that he is fears another confrontation at the Cleansing and is even desperate after Moridin's command (while Demandred is eager to face Rand personally).<br /><br />Therefore Slayer's patron was most likely Osan'gar.


created: 2005-06-14 08:09:27
subject: <b>i must admit that it is definately between osan'gar and demandred</b>
body:
and after reading this theory i maybe tempted to lean towards demandred. of course if i re-read etzel's i'll no doubt think it's osan'gar <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />to etzel: why shouldn't demandred have a back-up plan in case the renegade AM fail? there's no point putting of all your eggs in one basket. also demandred must fear the wrath of the Nae'blis as he's going against. when demandred tells Kisman to kill rand he tells him he might as well die as tell anyone about their dealings. this correlates with the 'patron' telling Slayer not to tell anyone.<br /><br />in short i could probably think of dozen arguments to support either theory, but for now i'm leaning towards Demandred. so a thumbs up from me <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">idealism not pragmatism</font><p></p>


created: 2005-06-14 10:27:07
subject: <b>It's a well laid out theory...</b>
body:
However, I still disagree. IMO, the list of possible suspects in order is:<br /><br />1. Taim<br />2. Osan'gar<br />3. Demandred<br /><br />There are a few reasons why I believe it is Taim. The main reason I believe is that Slayer is so insistent in his mind that it must be a Chosen. This screams to me that it is not. If it is not a Chosen, then Taim is the only choice left.<br /><br />Slayer remarks how no Chosen has ever taken these precautions before. IIRC, this is after Moridin gives permission to the Chosen to kill Rand if they must, so even in his fear, Osan'gar need not take such precaution. The secrecy is totally inconsistent with Demandred's character IMO. However, it fits with Taim.<br /><br />Taim would need to be disguised for several reason. First, if Slayer saw that he is not one of the Chosen, he wouldn't have taken the job. Also, Taim needs to keep his contact with the likes of Slayer secret from whichever Chosen is watching over him - be it Demandred, Moridin, or both. the final bit of evidence is the snowy glade where the gateway opens to. This is likely the BT, where we know there is still lots of snow on the ground and men travelling would be no big deal. At this time we have no idea where Demandred has been working out of and Osan'gar is on the run. <br /><br />Oh, and I dismiss Moridin out of hand - it fits his personality even less than Demandred's.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Need a book to read - check out my blog for ideas.</font><p><a href="http://nethspace.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">Neth Space</a></p><p></p>


created: 2005-06-14 15:47:53
subject: <b>Very nicely written, but I have to agree with Etzel ...</b>
body:
IMO, Osan'gar is the patron.<br /><br />I eliminate Taim for many of the reasons you did.  Yes, he'd have need to disguise himself (Slayer wouldn't obey him, otherwise, I think).  But, there's no indication Taim knows Slayer (and Slayer's role as the Shadow's assassin) or how to reach him (as you said, Slayer says that the Forsaken were the only male channelers who knew how to reach him).  Plus, Taim already had tasked the Asha'man to kill Rand.<br /><br />I eliminate Demandred because he had no real need to disguise himself.  Moridin had already lifted the &quot;do not kill Rand&quot; order during the Coffee Hour scene (which occurred before Slayer's scene), so no need to disguise himself for fear of repercussions.  Plus, like Taim, Demandred had already tasked the Asha'man to kill Rand.<br /><br />That leaves Osan'gar.  IMO, he disguised himself not because he feared Moridin (as Etzel suggested) but for the simple reason that Slayer didn't know who he was.  My guess is, Slayer was never told that Aginor &amp; Balthamel had been reincarnated, and therefore wouldn't have recognized Osan'gar as a Chosen.  Osan'gar knew this, so disguised himself to ensure Slayer obeyed him.<br /><br />Plus, unlike Taim and Demandred, Osan'gar hadn't already tasked someone else to kill Rand.<br /><br />IMO, Osan'gar enlisted Slayer in order to avoid a direct confrontation with Rand at the Cleansing.  It's clear he was afraid of those more powerful than him, Rand especially since he'd died confronting him once already.  Enlisting Slayer is very much in keeping with his character.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Rise and fall, turn the Wheel,<br />'cause all life is<br />Is really just a circle.&quot;<br /><br />-BHT&amp;tM</font><p></p>


created: 2005-06-14 20:00:02
subject: <b>A few thoughts of my own....</b>
body:
<b>1. &#8220;No, this man had done something with the Power, so Luc&#8217;s eyes slid away from him like water sliding down glass.&#8221;</b><br /><br /><b>2. &#8220;A man, he was sure of that much, but Luc could not look at him.&#8221;</b><br /><br /><b>3. &#8220;The man had to be one of the Chosen.&#8221;</b><br /><br /><b>4. &#8220;His services were always begged, except by the Great Lord himself, and more recently by the Chosen, but none of the Chosen Luc had met had ever taken such precautions as this.&#8221;</b><br /><br /><b>5. &#8220;&#8230;but the man was already making a gateway, a hole that opened into a snowy forest glade.&#8221;</b><br /><br /><b>It can be assumed that he has met with this person before, and therefore would have clues that would point to this person being male and having channeled in his presence before.</b><br /><br />I don't know what you are basing this assumption on. If Slayer has no idea who this person is, why should we assume they have met before, other than to give him the original order? I think we can safely assume this person was disguised just like this when the order to kill Rand was given. <br /><br />As far as channeling goes, Slayer can't. So he wouldn't know the difference between a man-made gateway and a female-made gateway, just as he wouldn't be able to sense saidin or saidar being used.<br /><br /><b>Our list of suspects must include all living male Forsaken: Moridin, Demandred, Osan&#8217;gar. Aran&#8217;gar may be included because she does channel saidin. Additionally, Mazrim Taim and the renegade Asha&#8217;man can be added to the list. Some of these characters can be eliminated by Slayer&#8217;s own thoughts, namely, the Asha&#8217;man and Taim.</b><br /><br />Everyone that I've seen approach this subject automatically &quot;assumes&quot; that Slayer's assesment is correct, and that this patron must be a man. Is it because Slayer uses the term &quot;man&quot; so many times in those listed quotes you used? (I counted 4 times.) That certainly jumped out at me the very first time I read that section, and it automatically made me suspicious of Slayer's assumption. <br /><br />The real truth is that the only male Forsaken we have seen use a disguise was Sammael, when he wore the MoM as Caddar. And the Taimandred issue became so rampant that RJ finally came out and said that Demandred had never been seen as anyone but himself. For the most part, the males seem to have pretty big egos, so they move rather openly from what we have seen so far in the series. (Even &quot;weakling&quot; Asmo did not disguise his true appearance from Rand.)<br /><br />OTOH, we have seen practically all the women wear some form of disguise except perhaps Semirhage. We haven't actually seen Mesaana's disguise revealed yet, but we know she's wearing one hiding out in the Tower. We saw Lanfear reveal her younger version of herself as her persona of Selene, and as fat Keille Shaogi. Graendal has been disguised as Maisa and Lady Basene. Moghedien has hidden herself as Gyldin and as Marigan.<br /><br /><b>From the Wotmania interview with RJ awhile back, Etzel put forth the question: &quot;Can you use the One Power to disguise your voice?&quot;</b><br /><br /><b>RJ answered: &quot;Yes.&quot;</b><br /><br />With that tidbit of info, we shouldn't be too quick to cross women off the list of suspects, IMO.<br /><br />And on the heels of saying that, Lanfear and Moggy with their mindtraps <i>might</i> be eliminated. <i>If</i> Semirhage is indeed Anath, she appears to have long range plans to collar Rand with the male a'dam. She might stay her hand in hopes of capturing him instead of trying to kill him, which is what the DO would prefer. <br /><br />I wouldn't eliminate Mesaana, because her no-show at the Cleansing might be a sign she had already tried to kill Rand via Slayer, and having failed at that, was too fearful to show up at Shadar Logoth. (Plus, she is the most likely candidate to have used Slayer before, to kill Joiya and Amico in the Stone of Tear.)<br /><br />Your list of suspects should definitely include Graendal. She has shown herself to keep very well informed of events, and she could still be afraid Asmo told Rand where her lair was. (She hasn't moved from all appearances.) She also would not risk facing Rand one-on-one. Graendal has also shown herself to be pretty smart. Sending an assasin like Slayer to a place where channelers have no advantage, shows some thought went into this plan. Making Slayer think it was a man would point the finger of blame elsewhere, besides.<br /><br />One thing I guess we should all keep in mind. Every Forsaken that knew Rand had the Choeden Kal access keys, and knew Moridin had ordered them to go to stop him once he started using them, had a legitimate excuse to perform a preemptive strike. Much safer to kill Rand beforehand by any means, than face him once he was using that much of the One Power.<br /><br />Just my thoughts.  <br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2005-06-14 23:23:29
subject: <b>To KCF</b>
body:
If it is Taim as you believe that would explain why he wanted to keep so hidden. Then Slayer wouldn't know who he is an if he was a Chosen of the DO then the others wouldn't know and try to kill him. I like the Taim angle.


created: 2005-06-15 01:48:47
subject: <b>I agree with Light in the Night</b>
body:
I agree with Light in the Night. The biggest assumption that Slayer makes is not that the patron is a forsaken, but that the patron is male.<br /><br />It has been made quite clear that it is difficult to dramatically change your appearance using the one power (mask of mirrors), but easy to make a slight change. Of course, the patron doesn't move around, and Slayer cannot keep his eyes on the patron, so that enforces the idea that it is a dramatic mask of mirrors.<br /><br />Had the patron wanted to simply hid their identity, they would do as mesaana has done and simply appear as light-and-shadow, or something like that. That the patron went to the effort to use such a complex disguise suggests that there was more to it than hiding.<br /><br />That enforces the idea that it was one of the female forsaken. Of course, it is possible that it was Aran'gar (who would want to appear male for her own reasons), but it is more likely a true female trying to shift blame in case of trouble.<br /><br />We can rule out Moghedien and Cyndane, as they are held by Moridin (who would do it himself). Semirhage is busy with the Seanchan, and so we are left with Graendal and Mesaana.<br /><br />Given Mesaana's penchant for using Mask of Mirrors, she is the prime suspect of the women. Graendal, however, has shown a preference towards manipulating (rather than commanding, which is Mesaana's approach - she commands Alviarin), which suggests that our patron is Mesaana.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Asmodean is alive and posing as Sammael!<br /><br />Sammael <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sammy.gif" border="0" /> is Sparticus.<br /><br />No, I'm Sparticus! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /> = <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />I'm Herid Fel Reborn!!!!! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shy.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-06-15 04:16:18
subject: <b>I doubt that RJ is that misleading</b>
body:
If he lets Slayer say that he is sure the patron is a man, I believe we can safely assume that this is true. <br /><br />It's the same like e.g. at the Darkfriend Social. <br />When Carridin sees there a person who looks like a Tinker, it is a Tinker, not someone else disguised as a Tinker. <br />Otherwise we could hardly figure out anyone.<br /><br />Especially since we had already seen another male Forsaken in a similar disguise in TAR, while we never saw a female Forsaken in a male disguise as far as I know.<br /><br />In TSR, ch.50, Rand watches Lanfear and Asmo in a dream:<br />&quot;She was facing-a blur. A thick, gray, man-sized fuzzing of the air&quot;, and &quot;the blur said in the man's voice...&quot;.<br /><br />In the same way Slayer can at least recognize the male stature and the male voice of the patron, despite his disguise and that &quot;even seen at the corner of the eye, he was a blur.&quot; (WH, ch.22)


created: 2005-06-15 10:39:11
subject: <b>I agree with Etzel (again) ...</b>
body:
I don't think RJ would be that misleading.<br /><br />I do agree that, given how RJ writes, whenever characters draw conclusions on scanty evidence, we should immediately doubt the accuracy of the conclusion.  We've seen time again examples of characters drawing inaccurate conclusions from the evidence at hand.<br /><br />But, in this case, I think RJ was helping us narrow down the possibilites for Slayer's patron by having Slayer presume the patron is male (and a Chosen).  I can't fully explain WHY I feel this to be true - it's just a gut feel I guess.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Rise and fall, turn the Wheel,<br />'cause all life is<br />Is really just a circle.&quot;<br /><br />-BHT&amp;tM</font><p></p>


created: 2005-06-15 12:08:03
subject: <b>If Slayer is worng about his assumptions...</b>
body:
..then it could be absolutely anyone, and nobody would have any way of figuring it out, and there would be very little point in keeping us in the dark.  <br /><br />Sure, Demandred already sent out the Asha'man, but they have already shown their incompetence in Cairhein.  I think that he would want to make a preemptive strike on Rand, since only an idiot would try to kill him while he's using the Choedan Kal.  Besides, a back up plan is never a bad idea.  <br /><br />Osan'gar seems to me to be content on playing the Moghedien game and hiding out until it's all over.  He's looking out for himself, not looking to kill Rand.  After Moridin says that it is acceptable to kill Rand, Demandred thinks &quot;Hiding his [Demandred's] satisfaction was not easy.  Rand al'thor or Lews Therin Telamon, he woudl rest easier when that fellow was dead.&quot; WH pg. 318.<br /><br />Additionally, note that Moridin's order seems to say that they are allowed to kill Rand only after he uses the Choeden Kal: <br /><br />&quot;'Killed?' Moridin moved his hands as though weighing something.  'If it comes to that, yes,' he said finally.  'But finding him is no problem.  When he touches the Choedan Kal, you will know where he is.  And you will go there and take him.  Or kill him if necessary.  The Nae'blis has spoken.'&quot;<br /><br />Regardless of when he can be killed, the words &quot;if necessary&quot; imply that they MUST try to &quot;take&quot; him or Moridin will be displeased.  Anyone who would try to kill him without trying to turn him to the dark would need to hide themselves.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">http://www.green-machine.info<br />Making Money Online</font><p></p>


created: 2005-06-15 12:31:37
subject: <b>I agree to disagree</b>
body:
This is the way Slayer's patron is described:<br /><br /><b>&#8220;No, this man had done something with the Power, so Luc&#8217;s eyes slid away from him like water sliding down glass. Even seen at the corner of the eye, he was a blur.&#8221;</b><br /><br /><b>&#8220;A man, he was sure of that much, but Luc could not look at him. It was not as it was with those slimy Gray Men, whom you just did not notice.&#8221;</b><br /><br />and there is this as well:<br /><br /><b>&quot;The pair sleeping in this room will sleep forever,&quot; Luc said, &quot;but the man was bald, the woman gray.&quot;</b><br /><br /><b>&quot;A pity,&quot; the man said, and the voice seemed to melt in Luc's ears. He would not be able to recognize it if he heard it without the disguise.&quot;</b><br /><br />And this is the way Rand describes Asmo:<br /> <br /><b>&quot;She was facing - a blur. A thick gray fuzzing of the air.&quot;</b><br /><br /><b>&quot;If you cannot control your... appetites,&quot; the blur said in a man's voice.</b><br /><br /><b>&quot;The blur shimmered; somehow Rand knew it for hesitation, uncertainty over saying too much. And then the blur was gone.</b><br /><br />As we can see, they are similar in that they are described as a blur. And in either case, you can't tell <i>who</i> the person is, but that's about it.<br /><br />Rand had no trouble looking at Asmo's blur, though, and he is loose with his talk. <br /><br />The patron is much more cautious, so much so that Luc is unable to even look directly at the person disguising themself. He can only make out the blur from the corner of his eye. This disguise is so carefully done that neither, height nor width is distinguishable.<br /><br />Perhaps more telling is the disguising of the voice, described as &quot;melting in his ears.&quot; Why not give it the sound of someone else's voice, to cast the blame at them? One of the male Forsaken might be bold enough to do that, but perhaps not one of the more cautious females.<br /><br />I also see a huge difference between this scene and the DFS. The DFS was designed to let us see that Darkfriends come from all lands and every race. That there are no boundaries when it comes to the Shadow's reach.<br /><br />And I counted all of the male references that Slayer makes. Eight total inferences including man, he, him and men, all in the space of one page. This is as in-your-face as you can get, and designed to make us eliminate the females, IMO.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2005-06-15 13:08:00
subject: <b>To Alydar ..</b>
body:
<b>..then it could be absolutely anyone, and nobody would have any way of figuring it out, and there would be very little point in keeping us in the dark. </b><br /><br />Agreed.<br /><br /><b>Sure, Demandred already sent out the Asha'man, but they have already shown their incompetence in Cairhein. I think that he would want to make a preemptive strike on Rand, since only an idiot would try to kill him while he's using the Choedan Kal. Besides, a back up plan is never a bad idea. </b><br /><br />I agree.  It's just that, assuming Demandred, Taim, and Osan'gar all wanted Rand dead, Osan'gar was MOST in need of enlisting Slayer, since Demandred and Taim had already enlisted the Asha'man to do it.<br /><br /><b>Osan'gar seems to me to be content on playing the Moghedien game and hiding out until it's all over. He's looking out for himself, not looking to kill Rand.</b><br /><br />Yes, but Osan'gar would also do just about anything to avoid confronting Rand at the Cleansing.  Ergo, he enlists Slayer to kill Rand.<br /><br /><b>After Moridin says that it is acceptable to kill Rand, Demandred thinks &quot;Hiding his [Demandred's] satisfaction was not easy. Rand al'thor or Lews Therin Telamon, he would rest easier when that fellow was dead.&quot; WH pg. 318.</b><br /><br />I agree, Demandred seems to want Rand dead more strongly than does Osan'gar.  But, as I said above, I think Osan'gar enlisted Slayer to kill Rand so that he wouldn't have to confront Rand at the Cleansing, no because we wanted Rand dead.  Also, don't forget that Osan'gar tried to kill Rand during the attack in Cairhien (the shot he fired was quite lethal looking), so he's not averse to the idea.<br /><br /><b>Additionally, note that Moridin's order seems to say that they are allowed to kill Rand only after he uses the Choeden Kal: <br /><br />&quot;'Killed?' Moridin moved his hands as though weighing something. 'If it comes to that, yes,' he said finally. 'But finding him is no problem. When he touches the Choedan Kal, you will know where he is. And you will go there and take him. Or kill him if necessary. The Nae'blis has spoken.'&quot;</b><br /><br />This is open to interpretation.  What I think is that, in the first part of Moridin's comments above, he is responding to Demandred's comment about finding Rand.  So, he's not saying that they can't kill Rand before the Cleansing, he's saying that regardless of whether they find Rand beforehand, they'll know exactly where he is when he attempts the Cleansing, at which time they are ordered to go there and capture or kill him.  I do think it's clear Moridin would prefer that Rand be captured than killed.  But, he's not prohibiting the others from killing Rand beforehand.<br /><br />This is supported by the fact that Moridin tells the DF Asha'man that he doesn't care if they kill Rand so long as they bring him Rand's possessions.  So, the Asha'man were allowed to kill Rand before the Cleansing.  In which case, so were the other Chosen.<br /><br /><b>Regardless of when he can be killed, the words &quot;if necessary&quot; imply that they MUST try to &quot;take&quot; him or Moridin will be displeased. Anyone who would try to kill him without trying to turn him to the dark would need to hide themselves. </b><br /><br />As I said above, I do think Moridin preferred they capture Rand than kill him.  Which might cause someone like Osan'gar, who's afraid of Moridin, to be careful in trying to kill Rand without making any attempt to capture him first.  But, I think someone like Demandred would not be disswayed from killing Rand just because of Moridin's &quot;preference&quot;.  As long as he'd been given the OK to kill Rand, he'd do it openly I think.  He certainly didn't disguise himself when tasking the DF Asha'man to kill Rand, and he likely did that before the Coffee Hour scene.  And, if he didn't disguise himself to the Asha'man, why bother with Slayer?<br /><br />However, I can think of a reason why anyone other than Moridin might disguise himself.  It has to do with the CK access keys.  That is, if Slayer was hired to kill Rand so that his Patron could get ahold of the access keys, then the Patron might disguise himself.  Even if the Patron dismissed Slayer before searching Rand's room for the keys, Slayer (knowing nothing about access keys) could still report to Moridin that so-and-so ordered him to kill Rand.  In which case, the Patron would become the primary suspect for having the access keys (assuming Moridin somehow knew Rand no longer had them).<br /><br />But, I think this argument is weak, because there's no evidence that Slayer's patron was looking for the access keys, and neither Demandred nor Osan'gar thinks about trying to obtain them (well, Osan'gar sort of does at the Cleansing, but he dismisses the thought rather quickly).<br /><br />The bottom line is, between the 3 primary suspects (Demandred, Osan'gar, and Taim), I think Osan'gar and Taim have more need to disguise themselves, and Osan'gar alone has the most need to enlist Slayer.  Therefore, he's the most likely suspect.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Rise and fall, turn the Wheel,<br />'cause all life is<br />Is really just a circle.&quot;<br /><br />-BHT&amp;tM</font><p></p>


created: 2005-06-15 13:09:27
subject: <b>Im with Light here</b>
body:
Too much mention of the assumptions and certainty of the conclusions. <br /><br />Maybe we are both cynics here but RJ has done this time and time again. It's is becomming none to subtle as the series goes on.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">See that Seagull in the sky Im just glad cows dont fly.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-06-15 13:12:18
subject: <b>Well...</b>
body:
I'm leaning more towrads Osan&#226;&#8364;&#8482;gar as the patron. Demandred...I just can't see it.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smackhead.gif" border="0" />People are stupid. That's why it says 'Do not eat' on laundry detergent boxes.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smackhead.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-06-15 13:32:39
subject: <b>Nice theory, but there are several issues..</b>
body:
You have eliminated Halima. And the reason you've provided based on the wrong evidence, I think. You are stating that <i>&quot;Remember that Slayer&#8217;s services are begged by Forsaken&quot;</i>. And you came to conclusion that Forsaken has to interest Slayer to take the job. But the book says otherwise - <i>&quot;His services were always begged, <b>except</b> by the Great Lord himself, and more recently <b>by the Chosen</b>&quot;</i>. It seems that Forsaken often use Slayer, and not begged him about it.<br /><br />I would say the Halima is eliminated based on her body. Saler says &quot;man&quot;. Unless RJ meant &quot;human&quot; (and include female in this <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> ) - that means body or voice is definitely male. It's not eliminating Halima entirely, since in TAR you can change the body and Halima is definitely located in the showy forest, but it puts huge question mark on her.<br /><br />Another quote you've misread (I guess): <i>&quot;He [Demandred] was a general, a great general, but generals did not have to fight alongside the men they commanded!&quot;</i> And later you are saying <i>&quot;as he seems to want a direct hand in killing Rand&quot;</i>. But Demandred's POV says otherwise! He &quot;did not have to fight&quot;. <br /><br />Although, I agree that this is Demandred motto - to stay behind, hidden, and command the others until the time is right. That includes orders to Slayer.<br />


created: 2005-06-15 14:42:58
subject: <b>Good Point</b>
body:
The number one priority when trying to come to a logical conclusion is not to make uneccessary assumtions. We are assuming that Slayer knew what he was talking about, and in truth, he doesn't, so all of the Forsaken, and then some, are suspects. However, much of the clues RJ leaves us are subtle signs for intuitition. He repeatedly mentions 'man' a ridiculus number of times, either pointing to the fact that it was definitly a man, or defifnitly not. He also makes a great deal to stress the unknown identity of this 'man'. He also makes note of the gateway opening to a 'snowy forest glade'.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;What do you mean, why's it got to be built?&quot; he said. &quot;It's a bypass. You've got to build bypasses.&quot; - Mr Prosser, head builder</font><p></p>


created: 2005-06-15 19:21:02
subject: <b>Ask Yourself:</b>
body:
Why did Jordan bother to show us the disguised figure at all unless his presence demonstrated something we didn't know before?  And why would he continue to hide the character's identity unless it was somehow significant?  <br />Osan'gar is dead, so if it was him, then the inclusion of the Mystery Man was essentially meaningless and the mystery will permanently remain unsolved.  I just don't think Jordan is that sloppy of a storyteller.  I mean, if it was Osan'gar, all Jordan had to do was include a line in the Choedan Kal chapter that went something like: &quot;As he struggled up the hill, Osan'gar cursed herself for not making Luc try and kill al'Thor a second time.&quot;  That would have been it--mystery solved.  So why didn't Jordan do that?  Why has he left it hanging so long after Osan'gar's death?<br />I would argue that the only way the inclusion of the Mystery Man and the continuing concealment of his identity could be significant is if the Mystery Man was NOT one of the Chosen.  Otherwise, what was the point?


created: 2005-06-15 19:53:48
subject:
<b>I personally think it was Bel'al as Taim <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /></b>

body:
But that's not a very popular theory <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />.<br /><br />To the one above: Asmodean.<br /><br />RJ is absolutely capable of setting a mystery and disposing of the culprit without telling us who did it.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>War must be, while we defend our lives against a destroyer who would devour all; but I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend</i><br />~Faramir</font><p></p>


created: 2005-06-15 22:43:59
subject: <b>Agree with Youker</b>
body:
I was hoping someone would mention the 'why' issue.  The scene was too staged not to have some future significance.  <br />When Jordan 'reveals' who the patron is, there should be some sort of impact to the storyline. I thought it was just Jordan giving clues that some non-Chosen (probably Taim) knows more than he should, can do more than he should be able to that would add to some character development for future books.<br /><br />I REALLY like the 'Patron is Mesaana' theory (she needs some character development as well).  But my question is why, after going through all the trouble of disguising herself as a man, would she (or any other female Chosen, for that matter) care if Slayer tells Mordin that a male Chosen contracted him to kill Rand?  Isn't that the point? Have Nae'blis kill off some of the competetion.


created: 2005-06-16 00:00:57
subject: <b>Re: gregorin panar</b>
body:
My first thought on the voice imitation was that it would be caution that held her back from doing that. Slayer would be suspicious of someone going to the trouble of disguising themselves so thoroughly, and then using their own voice. (What would be the point if he could identify them that way?) <br /><br />*Alarm bells would be going off immediately.*<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2005-06-16 01:59:28
subject: <b>Wait a second...</b>
body:
Isnt this meeting taking place in TAR? Even when you enter in the flesh its possible to change stuff isnt it? And dont u appear as how u see yourself, Aran'gar would still appear as a man, and so be discuised as a man discuised as a blur.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">The Wotmaniac currntly known as &quot;Taint Bearer&quot;<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <i>If you ever catch on fire, try to avoid looking in a mirror, because I bet that will really throw you into a panic.</i> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Came in 13th place in the Wotmania Hunt 2005 with 3790 points!<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-06-16 04:37:26
subject: <b>The point of the scene was rather Slayer</b>
body:
I think RJ mainly wanted to show us more about Slayer in the scene with his patron in WH, how he works for the Shadow exactly.<br />The patron's identity is a bit secondary, a bonus mystery. <br /><br />There were other mysteries which were never told in the books, e.g. who was the person who freed Fain in TGH (RJ simply stated later that it was Ingtar).<br /><br />Therefore I don't see that Osan'gar's (presumptive) death could rule him out as the patron.<br />For example, if Slayer stated in KoD that he never saw this patron again, we could conclude that it was Osan'gar. <br />Or other candidates could be rules out due their PoV. <br /><br /><br />To Light in the Night,<br /><br /><b> As we can see, they are similar in that they are described as a blur. And in either case, you can't tell who the person is, but that's about it.<br /><br />Rand had no trouble looking at Asmo's blur, though, and he is loose with his talk. <br /><br />The patron is much more cautious, so much so that Luc is unable to even look directly at the person disguising themself. He can only make out the blur from the corner of his eye. This disguise is so carefully done that neither, height nor width is distinguishable. </b><br /><br />It's correct that the patron is even more careful than Asmo. Slayer even says no one had ever taken such precautions.<br /><br />But I think this fits with Osan'gar's character shown at the Forsaken Tea Party and the Cleansing, if you consider that he fears to confront both men, Rand and Moridin, very much.<br /><br />On the other hand, we see that Mesaana uses other disguises which aren't very carefully made since Alviarin can see her skirt.<br />And Mesaana even disobeys Moridin or SH. <br />Why should she bother then to disguise herself so well?<br /><br /><b> Perhaps more telling is the disguising of the voice, described as &quot;melting in his ears.&quot; Why not give it the sound of someone else's voice, to cast the blame at them? One of the male Forsaken might be bold enough to do that, but perhaps not one of the more cautious females. </b><br /><br />Well, already this melting is effective enough so that Slayer couldn't recognize the voice without the disguise.<br /><br />The fact is simply that we never saw a male Forsaken disguised as a woman and vice versa.<br />Although it certainly would make sense in some scenes for the Forsaken to have a perfect disguise, RJ doesn't do it, so that we have the chance to identitfy a Forsaken in disguise.<br />You certainly also don't believe that e.g. Silvie was actually Sammael in an old woman disguise.<br /><br /><b> I also see a huge difference between this scene and the DFS. The DFS was designed to let us see that Darkfriends come from all lands and every race. That there are no boundaries when it comes to the Shadow's reach. </b><br /><br />The similarity between both scenes is that we try to find out the identities of the DF there by the clues Carridin saw.<br /><br />If all Bors noted and was sure about is wrong, if e.g. the Sea Folk man was actually a perfect disguised Tairen High Lord, and the Tairen High Lord a perfect disguised Tinker, there wouldn't be a chance to solve any mystery.<br /><br />Therefore we have to believe Slayer if he thinks that he is at least sure that the patron is a man.<br />This is RJ directly giving us a broad hint to concentrate on male channelers in this riddle.<br /><br /><b> And I counted all of the male references that Slayer makes. Eight total inferences including man, he, him and men, all in the space of one page. This is as in-your-face as you can get, and designed to make us eliminate the females, IMO. </b><br /><br />Yes, in my view we shall eliminate the females because the patron is without doubt a man.<br />RJ wanted to make at least that clear and not leave it open.<br /><br />But maybe we can ask a question about the patron in a possible next QotW round.


created: 2005-06-17 02:00:13
subject: <b>Couple of things to think about</b>
body:
IMO the prime suspects:<br />1. Taim<br />2. Mesaana (can't give up on her yet)<br />3. Demandred<br />4. Osan'gar<br /><br />A strong argument has been made for Osan'gar, but it just doesn't feel right.  His fear of Rand and Moridin may be a sufficient arguing point for the disguise, but when the plan fails, the patron comments 'a pity.' IMO this is strong indication that the Patron is someone who wants Rand dead for a reason other than just to avoid confrontation at the Cleansing.  Remember Osan'gar IS a Chosen after all, and therefore doesn't need to worry about not following Taim's or Demandred's orders.  It's seems much more likely that rather than going through the elaborate disguise to steal Slayer from Moridin that he would go to the Cleansing and wander around letting someone else do the dirty work.  That he gets killed just shows how inept he is.<br /><br />An important point concerning Damendred which needs to be kept in mind is that he has already received some fairly specific instructions from the DO directly which probably expand on the 'Let the Lord of Chaos rule' order.  Going against Nae'blis is one thing; going against the DO is something completely different.<br /><br />While it is most likely true that the numerous references to he/him/men etc is RJ's way of saying the Patron is male (as I said, I think it's Taim); female Chosen, as Light in the Night states, would need to disguise their voice as well as their appearance - bit silly if they don't, really.  I can easily see how after Mesaana allows Alvarin to catch a glimpse of her dress in the WT she would feel the need to make some improvements on her disguise - the blur being the upgrade to the failed trick with light and shadows.  <br /><br />I agree with you Etzel,that the main objective of the scene was to bring Slayer back into the storyline, but all the eye sliding, voice melting was a bit much - like RJ saying 'I'm going to take you through 400 pages of description of the Seanchan caste system in KOD, but REMEMBER THIS SCENE.'<br />As you point out there are several cases where mysteries in the books could have been resolved better. IIRC there was a scene where Ingtar talked about whether it was possible to return to the Light. I guess that was the resolution RJ was referring to.


created: 2005-06-17 09:45:42
subject: <b>I have a question</b>
body:
Assuming that the patron was able to tell Slayer the exact location, how did he/she know?  Going to a place where it is impossible to channel without a well is not something smart to do. Since we know that Osangar is supposed to be in Far Madden, but the other renegades do not see him, I think that makes him the prime candidate.  He has a reason to know where Rand is. He has been told to go to Far Madden.  He hid from the other renegades and found the inn where Rand was staying.  He leaves town and contacts Slayer.<br /><br />How would anyone else know where Rand is already?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">May you be successful  in all your projects.<br /><br />I am a pastafarion.  The Flying Spaghetti Monster created the universe, and no one in Kansas can prove me wrong.<br /><br />http://www.vengaza.org</font><p></p>


created: 2005-06-17 11:33:43
subject: <b>How they knew</b>
body:
One of the Renegade Asha'man, Rochaid I think, knows where Rand is.  He was following him around the city.  Since they have the ability to communicate to Demandred and Moridin thru Kisman, then they should know where Rand is staying.  Osan'gar is Dashiva, and since the Kisman tells us that the other Asha'man haven't yet arrived in the city, this means that Osan'gar would not have known where Rand was staying to tell Slayer.  Unless of course Slayer finds Rand himself.  <br /><br />But if this is the case, remember that Slayer has never met Rand in person.  Rand is disguised: He died his hair, he's wearing different clothes.  Since the three most likely ways to describe Rand are that he's tall, Red-headed and wears fancy clothes, there's no reason to assume that Slayer is as lucky as the Asha'man, and can find him in a big city.  THerefore, I think that Slayer had to be told of Rand's location, and that would point to either Demandred or Moridin as the patron, and Moridin is obviously not it.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">http://www.green-machine.info<br />Making Money Online</font><p></p>


created: 2005-06-17 12:08:19
subject: <b>To Alydar ...</b>
body:
Actually, that's not quite right.  Here are Kisman's thoughts, immediately after Rand killed Rochaid (and a few hours before Slayer tried to kill Rand):<br /><br /><i>He had been a fool to let Rochaid talk him into this [plan to kill Rand] in the first place.  They were supposed to wait until everyone [all 4 Asha'man] had arrived [before attempting to kill Rand], slipping into the city one by one to avoid notice.  Rochaid had wanted the glory of being the one to kill al'Thor; the Murandian had burned with the desire to prove himself a better man than al'Thor.  Now he was dead of it, and very nearly Rafer Kisman with him, and that made Kisman furious.</i><br /><br />So, it's clear all 4 Asha'man knew Rand was in Far Madding at the time Rochaid was killed, they just hadn't all arrived yet.  In the meantime, Rochaid talked Kisman into a plan to kill Rand which involved just the 2 of them - specifically, Rochaid was to lure Rand to a place in the city where they could both then safely kill him.<br /><br />As to how they all knew Rand was in Far Madding, they found clues that Rand deliberately scattered about to lure them there.  Earlier in the same chapter, Rand thinks (as he's following Rochaid):<br /><br /><i>Rochaid and his friends probably thought themselves very clever.  Perhaps they had found the map of the northern Plains of Maredo replaced upside down in the racks in the Stone of Tear, or the book on cities of the south misshelved in the library of the Aesdaishar Palace in Chachin, or one of the other hints he had left behind.  Small mistakes a man in a hurry might make, but any two or three together painted an arrow pointing to Far Madding.  Rochaid and the others had been quick to see it, quicker than he had expected, or else they had help to point it out. Either way, it did not matter.</i><br /><br />The point being, if the 4 Asha'man were able to find Rand's clues so easily, so could have Osan'gar, or any of the other Forsaken.  So, I don't believe we can use the fact that Slayer's patron knew where Rand was as evidence to eliminate any of the suspects.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Rise and fall, turn the Wheel,<br />'cause all life is<br />Is really just a circle.&quot;<br /><br />-BHT&amp;tM</font><p></p>


created: 2005-06-17 12:53:43
subject: <b>A little more ...</b>
body:
What I posted above could explain how anyone looking for Rand would know he was in Far Madding, but not necessarily in which particular inn he was staying (which is Alydar's point, I think).<br /><br />Regarding that ... first, there's no reason to think that Dashiva could not have arrived in Far Madding at the same time as Rochaid and Kisman.  Kisman's thoughts only indicate that Gedwyn and Torval were not there yet.  Kisman had no idea where Dashiva was (he thinks <i>Dashiva had simply vanished [after the attack in Cairhien]</i>).  Dashiva was never part of Taim's plot to kill Rand - only the 4 DFs (Rochaid, Kisman, Torval, and Gedwyn) were.  So, Kisman was not including Dashiva in his thoughts about &quot;everyone&quot; not being there yet.<br /><br />Therefore, it's quite possible Dashiva found the same clues as the 4 did, and arrived in Far Madding around the same time as Rochaid and Kisman did.  In which case, it's also possible he was able to find out where Rand was staying, and then told Slayer.  In fact, I think it's more likely that Dashiva could find out where Rand was staying than Rochaid or Kisman.  Dashiva had spent far more time with Rand than the other two, so would be able to see through his flimsy &quot;disguise&quot; better, IMO.  Plus, presumably Osan'gar would have more resources available to help him find Rand (other DFs in Far Madding, whom he could command, for example) than would Rochaid and Kisman.<br /><br />Also, keep in mind that there's no evidence that Rochaid or Kisman knew where Rand was staying, either.  The only thing we know for sure is that Rand knew where Rochaid was staying.<br /><br />The bottom line is, given the uncertainty about who might have followed Rand's clues to Far Madding at the time, and who knew what about where Rand was staying, I don't think we can eliminate any suspect based on Slayer knowing where Rand had been staying.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Rise and fall, turn the Wheel,<br />'cause all life is<br />Is really just a circle.&quot;<br /><br />-BHT&amp;tM</font><p></p>


created: 2005-06-18 13:31:51
subject: <b>Do we know...</b>
body:
Whether the other Asha'man were darkfriends necessarily?<br /><br />I think that there is a distinction between people who are dedicated to the Dark One and those who want to kill Rand for their own glory.  <br /><br />I also don't think that there is any reference to Taim sending only 4 Asha'man.  Dashiva could have been sent with the others.  There was however, I believe, a second meeting where Taim sends them after Rand again.  If Dashiva was the next scheduled to arrive, and came late, then Kisman would say that he &quot;disappeared.&quot;<br /><br />And yes, Osan'gar could have found the clues as well, but seeing as he is already quite afraid of Rand, and he cannot channel, I doubt that he would leave behind his two buddies who are skilled with the sword.  Sure Dashiva learned a bit of swordplay in the BT, but he's been with Rand for a while, and should know that Rand is extremely good with his sword.  Venturing out on his own would would not be something I could envision of him.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">http://www.green-machine.info<br />Making Money Online</font><p></p>


created: 2005-06-18 20:38:55
subject: <b>To Alydar ...</b>
body:
<b>Whether the other Asha'man were darkfriends necessarily?</b><br /><br />I think it's pretty clear that the 4 Asha'man involved were all DFs.  Some of the evidence is circumstantial, but there a couple of telling pieces.<br /><br />First, there are Demandred's rantings at the Coffee Hour scene in WH, where he says:<br /><br /><i>... those blind fools - those idiots! - failed [to kill/capture Rand] in Cairhien.</i> <br /><br />Note the plural &quot;fools&quot; and &quot;idiots&quot;.  He's clearly refering to more than just Kisman.<br /><br />Second, there are Kisman's thoughts just after Rand kills Rochaid in Far Madding:<br /><br /><i>&quot;Kill him,&quot; Demandred had commanded later, but he had added that it would be better they died than let themselves be discovered again.</i><br /><br />Note the plural &quot;they&quot; and &quot;themselves&quot;.  Again, Demandred is refering to more than just Kisman.<br /><br />To me (and I think most people who visit this site regularly), it's clear from these (and other) passages that all 4 Asha'man were DFs.<br /><br /><b>I think that there is a distinction between people who are dedicated to the Dark One and those who want to kill Rand for their own glory.</b><br /><br />I agree, not everyone who wants Rand dead is a DF.  But in this case, the 4 Asha'man were all DFs. <br /><br /><b>I also don't think that there is any reference to Taim sending only 4 Asha'man. Dashiva could have been sent with the others. There was however, I believe, a second meeting where Taim sends them after Rand again. If Dashiva was the next scheduled to arrive, and came late, then Kisman would say that he &quot;disappeared.&quot;</b><br /><br />There is evidence that Taim sent only 4 Asha'man.<br /><br />First, immediately after the attack on Rand in Cairhien (end of TPoD) Taim reported to Rand that Rochaid, Kisman, Torval, and Gedwyn had deserted the BT, and attacked Rand because they were disgruntled over Rand's Seanchan campaign in Altara.  He only mentions those 4, and does NOT mention Dashiva.  Rand then tells Taim that Dashiva also participated in the attack, to which Taim shows surprise and anger.  It's quite clear from Taim's reaction that Dashiva was not part of Taim's plan.<br /><br />Second, from Kisman's thoughts after Rochaid's death:<br /><br /><i>Those two [Demandred and Moridin] were the only Chosen Kisman had met, but they made his heard hurt.  They were worse than Cairhienin.  He suspected that what they left unsaid could kill a man quicker than a signed order from a High Lord.  Well, once Torval and Gedwyn arrived they could work out-</i><br /><br />It's clear Torval and Gedwyn were the only other Asha'man Kisman was waiting for to show up in Far Madding.  (Note that Kisman was going to discuss Demandred's and Moridin's orders with Torval &amp; Gedwyn - more evidence that they were all DFs.)<br /><br />IMO, it's quite clear Taim only ordered 4 Asha'man to kill Rand, and that they were all DFs.  That's why everyone thinks Taim is a DF, too.  It's inconceivable that 4 DFs would obey orders to kill Rand from Taim if Taim weren't also a DF.<br /><br /><b>And yes, Osan'gar could have found the clues as well, but seeing as he is already quite afraid of Rand, and he cannot channel, I doubt that he would leave behind his two buddies who are skilled with the sword. Sure Dashiva learned a bit of swordplay in the BT, but he's been with Rand for a while, and should know that Rand is extremely good with his sword. Venturing out on his own would would not be something I could envision of him.</b><br /><br />I'm not suggesting at all that Dashiva was in Far Madding to confront Rand directly.  Rather, he was there to find out where, exactly, Rand was staying so he could have Slayer confront (and kill) him.<br /><br />Also, as I said above, Dashiva was not part of Taim's plan to kill Rand.  So, I don't think any of the 4 DF Asha'man were his &quot;buddies&quot;.  He only spoke with the 2 during the attack in Cairhien to find out if Rand was dead.  I don't think he was participating in the attack himself - only monitoring it, to see what happened.  He only took a shot at Rand to get away, after Rand saw him.<br /><br />I wrote a theory on this - if you're interested look at the 2nd theory in the &quot;Other Darkfriends&quot; section, entitled &quot;The Shadow's Plots in TPoD and WH&quot;.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Rise and fall, turn the Wheel,<br />'cause all life is<br />Is really just a circle.&quot;<br /><br />-BHT&amp;tM</font><p></p>


created: 2005-06-19 21:49:15
subject: <b>Still going with the left-field theory</b>
body:
I think the patron scene was after Moridin ok's Rand's death. So here goes:<br /><br />WH: Patron (insert Forsaken name) knows Rand and Min have already gone from the rooms but meets Slayer anyway and tells him there are in this room. Slayer enters the room from T'hood, kills them and then lights the candle to see they wern't his nephew and his wench. He returns, Patron says &quot;a pity&quot; (a lie) and I will meet you again and don't tell anyone of their pact.<br /><br />KoD: Patron &quot;he is in here&quot;. Slayer enters the room from T'hood, stabs Rand, lights a  candle. It's not Rand, it's Moridin. Returns to Patron, who has disappeared. Slayer has killed Moridin!! Who would he tell, the Dark One (yeah right) he doesn't know who the Patron was, who would believe his tale? Nobody. He keeps silent. Demandred the Patron has made good on his WH promise to get rid of Moridin.<br /><br />


created: 2005-06-22 03:25:19
subject: <b>Gotta agree with Light on this</b>
body:
But, the one thing we can be absolutely sure about is the Patron is taking extraordinary pains to conceal his/her identity.  With that said, I can't see them gatewaying directly to their location (Why go through all the disguise trouble and then take a direct route home).  More likely someone this concerned about their identity would take an indirect or two-gateway route back.<br /><br />Also, since I'm leaning toward the Mesaana faction, how does she know where Rand is?  Since she's in the WT, can we then assume that if she is the Patron, she found out Rand's location through the Black Ajah, from one of the Aes sedai in Cadsuane's party?  If this is true, who is the BA in Cadsuane's group?  Oh, if this is way off, sorry -- I'm a little hazy on the specifics of this scene right now until I re-read in anticipation of KoD.<br /><br />A well written theory, though.  I really enjoyed your analysis, but I disagree with some of Slayer's assumptions that you take as fact.  RJ loves to leave us pondering the minutae of the plot, just see the &quot;Who killed Asmodean&quot; threads.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Of course, that's just my opinion.  I could be wrong.<br /><br />&quot;Life is like WoT... You never know when it's gonna end.&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2005-11-21 19:45:15
subject: <b>????</b>
body:
How do you get Isam is Rand's uncle? Is Rand related to Lan? NO. How do youtrace Rand's family lines to Maliker at all? I think you need to review the part where you learn who isam is related to because I don't think that Isam if Rand's uncle. Right now I think that Isam is trying to kill a mystery target, not Rand.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shakefist.gif" border="0" /> Faile haters...<br />Paranoia is not a sickness, it's being smart enough to know that everyone IS out to get you. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /> <br /><font color="orange">Go </font> <font color="blue"> Broncos</font> <font color="orange">!!!!!!</font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-11-21 20:00:14
subject: <b>Moridin</b>
body:
Moridin might still be possible.  He wants the choeden kal has good reason to hate Rand.  He'd disguise himself to evade the dark one, as for how to hide from him, consider the dagger from Knife of Dreams.  If a ter'angreal can conceal you from shadowspawn, then perhaps one can conceal you from the Dark One aswell.  The disguise would be to keep other the chosen from revealing his attempts on Rand's life, in hopes of becoming Nae'ablis.  He'd be hiding from the Dark One since if Rand were turned to the dark, he would become Nae'ablis. It wouldn't be a pleasent scenario for Moridin.  But if Rand died he'd be out of the way, since he'd be reattached to the Wheel,Lews was most likely, so his reincarnation would be, and beyond the Dark One to revive. As a black ajah sister says &quot;He must be there to be defeated(or not) by the Great Lord in the Last Battle.&quot;


created: 2006-02-02 15:42:47
subject: <b>Anser to Tigra...</b>
body:
&gt;How do you get Isam is Rand's uncle? Is Rand related to Lan? &gt;NO. How do youtrace Rand's family lines to Maliker at all? I &gt;think you need to review the part where you learn who isam is &gt;related to because I don't think that Isam if Rand's uncle. &gt;Right now I think that Isam is trying to kill a mystery &gt;target, not Rand<br /><br />You are right - Isam is not related to Rand. But Luc is Rand's uncle and in this scene Isam is obviously talking as though he shares Luc's memories or that their connection is more complicated than just a straight Body/Mind exchange.<br />


created: 2006-10-01 11:35:25
subject: <b>A little error</b>
body:
When you say that Mazrim Taim can not have commanded slayer, since he is not one of the forsaken you are mistaken. Taim is in fact Demandred. This can be proved since in KoD epilog Taim says &quot;Remember the old saying,let the Lord of chaos rule&quot;. Wich proves that he is demandred because it was to Demandred Shai'tan said it.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Life is just a dream&quot;<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/seanchan.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2008-02-28 14:36:05
subject: <b>Dashiva is really Osan'gar</b>
body:
WH ch35 &quot;With the Choedan Kal&quot; p. 754 -<br /><br />&quot;Crouching behind a fallen log, Osan'gar panted from the exertion of running.  Those months masquerading as Corlan Dashiva had not made him fonder of exercise.&quot;  <br /><br />If Osan'gar (Aginor) has been masquerading as Dashiva, that would stand to reason that the real Dashiva has been disposed of, if ever he really existed.  So you list of suspects must shrink by one.


created: 2005-06-16 07:14:11
subject: <b>I agree</b>
body:
Soon and if the ta'veren accept this way of telepathy, they will be able to communicate with each other.<br /><br />There is also a example of this effect in a Rand PoV in CoT which you didn't quote:<br /><br />&quot;The woman carried more knives tucked about her than Thom Merrilin had. Or Mat. Colors whirled in his head, almost resolving into...what? A man on a wagon seat? [...] the scene was gone in an instant.&quot;<br /><br />This shows that Rand can actually see now what Mat does at the same time if he just thinks of him.<br />If a ta'veren would even concentrate on it, he could probably contact the other ta'veren eventually.<br /><br />I think the only other form of telepathy we see in the series is between wolves and Wolfbrothers.<br />Not sure, though, if one could make a connection to the ta'veren effect.


created: 2005-06-16 11:25:13
subject: <b>Very nice</b>
body:
A number of characters (Moiraine, Min, and perhaps others I am forgetting) have told Rand how imporant it is for him to keep Perrin and Mat near him - that it is vital, in fact, for the 3 ta'veren to be/work together in order for the Dark One to be defeated.<br /><br />So, I have always thought that the swirling colors were the Pattern's way of urging the 3 ta'veren to get back together again.  The effect grows stronger the longer they remain apart, and the nearer Tarmon Gai'don approaches.<br /><br />If I am interpreting your theory correctly, I think you are just expanding upon this idea - that the swirling colors are, in fact, giving the 3 a means to communicate and, in effect, &quot;be&quot; together while they remain physically apart.  <br /><br />The fact that they are now &quot;seeing&quot; each other in action seems to support this.  Whether they will eventually be able to commuicate telepathically via this method remains to be seen, I guess.   We're getting close to the end of the series now, so I expect the 3 to meet up again very soon, perhaps by the end of KoD.  So, the need for a telepathic link may be moot.  But until then, it'll be interesting to see how the effect intensifies, and what results from it.  Your speculation is quite possible, I think.  I voted thumbs up.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Rise and fall, turn the Wheel,<br />'cause all life is<br />Is really just a circle.&quot;<br /><br />-BHT&amp;tM</font><p></p>


created: 2005-06-16 11:27:27
subject: <b>sounds good...</b>
body:
I think that you have demonstrated that this is a sort of telepethy that (hopefully) the characters will learn to use, instead of ignore. I'll be curious to see where RJ takes the communication theme in the final two books. Will he suddenly have the characters begin to communicate with very positive results? Or will they continue to not communicate to the further detriment of their efforts? Or do they come together afterwards and talk - 'hey you knew about that months ago, why didn't you tell me?' (not that RJ would ever write this scene, but I think it would be informative and probably humorous). <br /><br />On a side note: I'm not sure how I feel about the introduction of telepethy so near the end of the series. It just seems a bit too much. If this isn't done well, I think it will really take away from the effectiveness of the conclusion. I get annoyed when RJ introduces new things like this (basically changing the rules of his reality) so far along in the story.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Need a book to read - check out my blog for ideas.</font><p><a href="http://nethspace.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">Neth Space</a></p><p></p>


created: 2005-06-16 11:55:18
subject: <b>I'm with you, kcf</b>
body:
I hope RJ doesn't just drop something like telepathy into our laps so late in the game. Rather, I expect that he'll do something unique with the colors that will produce the same basic results as telepathy without it being strict or outright telepathy.<br /><br />I'm not trying to guess the details of how he will make them communicate except to say it will occur via the colors.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Bob L. Sedai (a.k.a. Luge) <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /><br />Fighting off the Taint - <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tinfoilhat.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" />Thanks given to Burr, the ever-helpful theory critic<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />And to Light in the Night, fellow theorist extraordinaire<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Voted Best Screenname 1 (one) years in a row.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-06-16 12:25:36
subject: <b>Telepathy isn't new in the series</b>
body:
Telepathy, as a form of communication in the mind, wouldn't be that new.<br /><br />As said, Perrin can communicate with the wolves in his mind above some distance.<br /><br />The DO uses telepathy in his conversations with the Forsaken.<br /><br />Also the voice in Rand's head in the end of EotW, which many believe is the Creator, uses practically telepathy to communicate with Rand.<br /><br />Of course, I think we have no other example of human beings who communicate with each other due to telepathy yet, though at least feelings can be shared through links.<br /><br />And another interesting scene regarding feeling others can be found in TGH, ch.46. <br /><br />Somehow Rand feels in Falme that the Wondergirls are in danger:<br />'&quot;She's in trouble,&quot; Rand muttered. Egwene. There was an odd feeling in his head, as if pieces of his life were in danger. Egwene was one piece, one thread of the cord that made his life, but there were others, and he could feel them threatened. Down there, in Falme. And if any of those threads was destroyed, his life would never be complete, the way it was meant to be. He did not understand it, but the feeling was sure and certain.'<br /><br />It seems Rand can feel the pattern around him in this scene.<br />This ability might be related to the swirling colours somehow and likely be much stronger if another ta'veren is in great danger.<br />Therefore I suspect that Perrin and Mat will sense as well when Rand's life is in danger if he is captured by the Seanchan.


created: 2005-06-16 12:30:05
subject: <b>interesting point Etzel...</b>
body:
You are correct that some forms of 'telepathy' have been present since the beginning. I guess I just don't want to see that at end of the book, suddenly Rand, Mat, Perrin, and maybe even others can communicate in such a direct way - it does seem to be a rule change late in the game. However, ta'veren refining their ability to feel the threads that are affected and inter-related could be interesting. I still think that RJ needs to write this very well to pull it off.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Need a book to read - check out my blog for ideas.</font><p><a href="http://nethspace.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">Neth Space</a></p><p></p>


created: 2005-06-16 12:52:53
subject: <b>I think we will continue to see</b>
body:
New things being added to the series even toward the end to me is indication of the turning of the wheel. Nothing stays the same<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">See that Seagull in the sky Im just glad cows dont fly.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-06-16 12:59:13
subject: <b>Not Telepathy</b>
body:
I don't this the colors are a form of telepathy, rather I think the colors are the Pattern's way of forcing some needed communication on the boys.  <br /><br />That is, the communication will not come FROM their mind, but will come TO their mind with information they need.<br /><br />


created: 2005-06-16 14:33:55
subject: <b>Bringing them together</b>
body:
I think that the colors are part of what is trying to pull the three ta'veren together. Perrin mentioned that he 'felt Rand tugging', and I think that the colors, and images are trying to bring them together. This would explain why they never see the colors when they are together. Just a thought.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;What do you mean, why's it got to be built?&quot; he said. &quot;It's a bypass. You've got to build bypasses.&quot; - Mr Prosser, head builder</font><p></p>


created: 2005-06-16 14:52:01
subject: <b>except for one thing</b>
body:
I'm probably going to be the odd ball out, but I don't agree with this.<br /><br />Communication is a huge factor in this series. There are a thousand ways to see someone far away - the Ways, Portal Stones, Skimming, Gateways, Dreamwalking... - yet nobody uses any of them. Why? Because there are some mad communication issues.<br /><br />My problem with this theory, then, and the only thing that leaves it off for me, is that the communication is being FORCED on the three ta'veren. I think it needs to come willingly, for the fact that it would be a huge step in not only communication but also trust, which these characters are seriously lacking and desperately in need of. Having an outsider blathering your secrets doesn't get you off scott-free because if all left up to you, you never would have let that secret find breath. I think that being able to trust the two people you need the most in the entire world, the two people you absolutely need to get along with, is a tad more important than finding out Perrin is a Wolfbrother and Mat is...well...God knows what Mat is. <br /><br />Who knows? Maybe it's going to be a telepathic form of saidar, and in order for it to work effectively and to its full extent - telepathy and mind-reading - instead of physical features - Mat sitting on a wagon and Rand infront of Nynaeve - they're going to have to surrender their minds completely to the others - albeit, surrender willingly. Or more like making ter'angreal, in which both saidin and saidar are needed to make it work, only its all three ta'veren that have to cooperate together, and they're building trust and communication, not ter'angreal.<br /><br />But yeah, that's my only qualm with this theory.


created: 2005-06-16 17:10:20
subject: <b>But, Almira...</b>
body:
All along fate has been FORCED upon the three boys.  They've had little choice in the matter.  Do you think Rand would be the Dragon Reborn if he had a choice?  Or would Perrin be a lord?  Or Mat a leader of men?  None of them particularly like what they have become, but each of them, even Mat, with his acceptance of responsiblity and his relationship to Tuon, have accepted what the Pattern has FORCED them to become.<br /><br />The Pattern is the ultimate mover of persons, and the ta'veren are moved along with everyone else, they are just focal points.  RJ's universe, when you think about it, does not emphasize the principle of agency as our contemporary Christan world does.  It can be very foreign to us, but it is an integral part of the Wheel of Time.


created: 2005-06-17 01:25:00
subject: <b>I like this....</b>
body:
I don't have any arguments against it and not much to add either.<br /><br />It does make me wonder about the Pattern providing, in this instance, for the ta'veren's need to be together or in contact with each other. We have already seen how you can use &quot;Need&quot; in TAR, to get what the Pattern feels is necessary. And we know the Pattern kicks out ta'veren for corrections to keep things in balance. <br /><br />Perhaps this is another of the Patterns' ways to provide for what it feels is &quot;Needed&quot;? If this is what you were suggesting in the first place, forgive me for being dense. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Thumbs up from me! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2005-06-17 02:13:35
subject: <b>I agree...</b>
body:
I always wondered what was supposed to come of the colors.  I always thought of them as a sort of window for one ta'veren to see another.  Now all we need is for these guys to stop resisting what the Pattern is trying to set up.  Well, Mat and Perrin anyways.  Rand doesn't seem to force it away like they do, but he is probably blaming it on his madness anyway.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;The ear is the pathway to the heart.&quot;<br />- Voltaire</font><p></p>


created: 2005-06-17 02:28:55
subject: <b>Good job</b>
body:
I agree that the 'swirling colors' are the Pattern's way of telling our dense Ta'veren to get together.  Ta'veren work for the Pattern. It will keep getting stronger until Mat and Perrin end up with a 'picture' of Rand captured and in trouble.  Mat will figure out immediately that he'll need to go to Seanchan to rescue Rand (from the fake 'DotNM'?), but I worry about our blacksmith friend who  looks like he is about to owe some serous favors to a suspected Seanchan Darkfriend (the betrayal?).


created: 2005-06-17 10:25:18
subject: <b>.</b>
body:
notice how for the person of whom we have the most examples (Rand), it seems the effect of the swirls get gentler as these swirly viweing progress ---&gt; either signifying acceptance on Rand's part, or a need of the pattern to impose the swilrs so forcefully lessened<br /><br />IMO the swirls will never result in down and out communication- even when the taveren are together, they don't talk about their personal experiences, they don't confide thier problems in each other. No way is that habit gonna be overcome by a sudden telepathy- if such were available, you can be sure as hell they wouldn't use it if it were optional. Also, M and P actively fight against it, which is typific of how they have behaved towards all the things the pattern has forced on the them.<br /><br />So we'll just have to see how the swirls help them in their fight against the shadow.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Fortune rides like the sun on high <br />with the fox that makes the ravens fly. <br />Luck his soul, lightning his eye, <br />He snatches the moons from out of the sky.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-06-17 11:51:22
subject: <b>Intersting, but</b>
body:
I think you have it backwards.  You say multiple times that the colors make Rand think of Mat and Perrin, and that the pattern is creating the colors.  I think that because they think of each other, the colors appear.  Note that in almost every instance, the ta'veren think of each other first, then colors appear.  I'm not sure that this has any negative effect on your theory, just something I noticed.  <br /><br />I don't think that this phenomenon is necessarily any kind of telepathy or communication ability however, but rather a signal that they need to be together.  The ta'veren have been thinking about each other more and more, and as the series is coming to a close, we know that they need to be together.  Not necessarily anything they can use, but kind of a warning instead.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">http://www.green-machine.info<br />Making Money Online</font><p></p>


created: 2005-06-17 15:10:20
subject: <b>aging computer...</b>
body:
But you can't force them to trust each other, that's my point! Rand doubts Mat and Perrin, but there's never a thought of not being able to trust Min. How can you fight along somebody when you don't trust them? When you trust someone you've only known for a few years alot better than the people you grew up with? <br /><br />How many times was Rand forced to use Mat, and Mat forced to let him? How many times has Mat played a crucial part in one of Rand's plans, especially with the attack on Illian? Yet did any of that build a trust between them? Even when Rand handed Mat his life on a platter, he still doesn't completely trust him. Let's talk of more instances. Perrin was forced to be a wolfbrother, forced to communicate with wolves for their help at Dumai's Wells, yet does he like the wolves any more than he did in the beginning? Mat was forced to stick around Aes Sedai, and yet does he trust them any more than he did in the beginning? No. Forcing their secrets out into the open won't do anything to further their trust, and that's what I'm trying to get at.<br /><br />The Pattern can do whatever it wanted with the three ta'veren, but the one thing it absolutely cannot do is make somebody trust someone they don't want to. Here's a perfect example of it. Moiraine found out Perrin was a wolfbrother, yet did Perrin ever completely trust Moiraine? Yet Perrin told Faile his secret willingly, and there was never a thought of not being able to trust her. Cadsuane hinted to Rand that she knew about Lews Therin in his head, yet did he ever trust her? None, not once, but he told Min himself and there was never a thought of not being able to trust her. Even the little of Mat's secrets that Rand knows isn't enough to make Mat trust him. Do you think the reaction will be different when Mat's secrets blows out into the open? Finding out a secret didn't do anything to build trust before, why should now be different? <br /><br />Yes, they were forced to do a lot of things. And yet none of those things has built even a stone of trust between them. Do you really think it's healthy for them to go into the Last Battle the way they all are, bickering and gibbering wherever they go, keeping secrets from others because they don't think they &quot;need&quot; to know it - like Mat not &quot;needing&quot; to know that Moghedien had attempted to kill Nynaeve and instead succeeded in murdering two of his men. Reading these books is like watching a soap opera, and listening to simpering adults say how they can't possibly tell the truth, it's too painful, they'll be despised. You can't help but think that if these idiots were actually completely honest for once then things will all work out. And when the truth does blow up in their faces you feel no sympathy when the only reason they're despised is because they lied and kept it a secret.


created: 2005-06-17 21:28:08
subject: <b>&lt;gar&gt;</b>
body:
Matt and Perrin were a major part of the story since the first 3 chapters or so... so RJ couldnt just write them out of the story...so he made them Ta'veren so that they could follow Rand on his journey... that way they stayed in the book and didnt stop existing... besides best friends are going to follow you... so RJ continued the theme of comradship and he just made the two of them Ta'veren to add extra interesting stuff into the plot of the story <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">MOO</font><p></p>


created: 2005-06-18 18:35:20
subject: <b>agree over all</b>
body:
and 2 side notes,<br />1. if its not going to form into some type of telepathy but is only the pattern trying to bring them back together, then the images may help in that.  If they concentrate maybe when they finally try to get together they can use the images to figure out where they are at and thus help them get back together.<br />2. it really doenst have anything to do with this theory but when I read the theory it made me remember something in the Prologue of LoC, when the 2 A.S. are blathering over Elayne and Nyn's findings they mention the eaves dropping trick and how some A.S. think that they can adapt it some way and create a method of communicating over long distances, This was like 5 books ago and we havent seen anything happen with it yet, but ya never know.  If RJ is gonna throw in some new stuff late in the game like Taveran telepathy, then he may as well throw in some new A.S. communication


created: 2005-06-20 17:07:48
subject: <b>i agree...sorta</b>
body:
Firstly I never post because i think totally different than everybody else but here goes. We all know that the pattern shifts things to it's image it planned out. Well if the pattern needs the three connected I think maybe the colors might be the pattern &quot;bonding&quot; them together, sorta like a Warder/Aes Sedai thing. Maybe they won't share the strength of the other but they might know where the others are and if they are in danger.  Just my weird thinking added to the mix.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">YodasFather<br /><br />There are only 10 types of people in the world - those who understand binary, and those who don't.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-06-22 06:30:50
subject: <b>What if,</b>
body:
this is the thing RJ's been talking about?<br /><br />As I recall, RJ has said that someone will regret a certain action done in the past, or something like it. I wonder if this could be the separation of the three Ta'veren? Or their refusal to accept the colors?<br /><br />Just a thought.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bela.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bela.gif" border="0" /> Don't even think to ask how I came up with my nick; you don't want to know <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-06-22 14:54:15
subject: <b>Response to colors</b>
body:
I like the overall theory, however i do not believe that it is a form of telepathy as much as the patterns weaving.  I think that what is happening is that as the wheel spins towards the Last Battle, that it is creating a much narrower strand so to speek.  I think that what is happening is something like the three ta'veren strands are comming closer and closer, and that the pattern is giving this ability to sence the patern to the boys.  If you think about it look at it like a weever of a shawl, it is kind of triangle shaped right, you start out at the begining at a narrow point, make it wider and then narrow it up again. So, if you were to have say Perrin on one side, Mat on the other, and Rand in the middle, and the entire pattern was focusing on a singular point in time then the three ta'veren's influences on the world would sort of overlap. <br />As a visual example I will &quot;Draw&quot; the shawl using R=Rand, M=Mat and P=Perrin. B=beginning and other people, A=All three boys together<br />B<br />BB<br />B&gt;B<br />B&gt;&gt;B<br />B&gt;&gt;&gt;B<br />B&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;B<br />B&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;B<br />B&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;B<br />M&gt;&gt;&gt;R&gt;&gt;&gt;P<br />M&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;R&gt;&gt;&gt;P<br />M&gt;&gt;&gt;R&gt;&gt;&gt;P<br />M&gt;&gt;&gt;R&gt;&gt;P<br />M&gt;&gt;R&gt;&gt;P <br />M&gt;R&gt;&gt;P <br />M&gt;R&gt;P<br />M&gt;RP<br />MRP<br />AA<br />A             <br /><br />Note=in the actual pattern, the shawl would be beginning at the end of LTT's life after he sealed the Boar. And the three boys would just be the tail end of the shawl, but you get the idea<br /><br />This would make it so that they may sense something of the others in themselves.  Kind of like when in the stone of tear when Mat and Perrin could not just leave becouse the pattern would not allow it, Mat and Perrin could &quot;feel Rand pulling them&quot;.  Perhaps now they are pulling at eachother equally?  So right now as I see it they are in the last few lines of the pattern, almost at the end of the pattern, getting ready for it to begin again at the start of the &quot;new shawl.  I look forward to your response.  It's just an idea that I came up with while thinking of why it might be colors.  Everyone is different, and would have there own color in the pattern.  So, what do you think?


created: 2005-06-23 01:11:06
subject: <b>firemandan</b>
body:
interesting idea, or concept, really. I don't know much about weaving or anything like that, but what you showed seemed a good expansion of the thread concept.<br /><br />However, I believe that more important than the analogy used for what's happening is the purpose. To ask the question, &quot;What's going to happen soon that the colors will be a direct help for?&quot; Any response to my thoughts on that?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Bob L. Sedai (a.k.a. Luge) <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /><br />Fighting off the Taint - <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tinfoilhat.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" />Thanks given to Burr, the ever-helpful theory critic<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />And to Light in the Night, fellow theorist extraordinaire<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Voted Best Screenname 1 (one) years in a row.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-06-23 13:32:05
subject: <b>Response to the response</b>
body:
Ok well here is my thought on that.  As the three primary weaves head towards the focal point the entire patern becomes stronger and more focused.  Last night I was thinking of this and came up with a modification to the consept.  Its more like a cone, or two cones rather.  if you take a tube, like say a toilet paper roll and squeez it, it can be bent rather easily even made out of metal.  However, if you take that same tube and weld on ends to it it becomes much stronger due to the air resistance.  the good thing about a round tube is that it is fairly easy to reform into a round tube if it is damaged.  However, if the tube was changed to be two cones &lt; &gt; placed like so &lt; &gt; they become stronger yet.  <br /><br />I am getting to a point i swear.  So if the pattern were formed in the cone-cone shape and the three weaves were comming together, with say, Rand as a center reinforcment rod, the pattern becomes strongest at the points, with little to no flexibility. This means that the pattern is becoming more inflexible.  <br /><br />However it also means that there is less room for changes to its planns.  I feel that the colors are the patterns way of saying &quot;HAY, YOU FOOL, GO TO YOUR FRIENDS, THAT IS HOW YOU WILL WIN THIS THING, NOT ON YOUR OWN YOU IDIOT.&quot;  To put it bluntly, the pattern is going to annoy the crap out of them untill they see the error of their ways in separaiting for so long.  Lets call it a creator attuned allarm clock telling them that it is getting damn close to time for the big show, and if they dont get their act in geer they will mis it, and we know they all have to be there for it.  Just a thought, look forward to hearing your response.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />


created: 2005-06-28 12:26:30
subject: <b>Dreaming</b>
body:
Don't forget that many people communicate via dreaming in TAR, that&#8217;s telepathy right there if you ask me. Good Theory, thumbs up.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Why on earth would anybody want to kidnap a groundhog?&quot;<br /><br />&quot;I can think of a few reasons, the pervert!&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2008-04-05 16:48:49
subject: <b>Maybe....</b>
body:
I was thinking about how all three of them could be connected (other then being ta'veren or course) and i realized something. In the SR Rand, Mat and Moraine all enter through the twisted ter'angreal doorway at the same time. Its possible that since mat and Rand have come into contact with the Aelfin, although Mat has associated with them more, that Moraine is somehow making the Aelfin cause these swirling colors. I have concluded this because at the end of book 11 we find out that Moraine is with Aelfin (or Eelfin, i cant remember.) It makes some sense, because Moraine was always saying that they needed to stay together, and some theories say that the colors are trying to keep then together. Since Perrin never came into contact with the Aelfin or the Eelfin, the only reason i could come up with for him being involved with the colors is because the Aelfin have something to do with wolf dreams. Or its because Perrin is connected with Rand and Mat as a ta'veren. I've noticed, however, that the colors seem to come more often with Mat, and he has a stronger connection with both the Aelfin and Eelfin. Winters Heart. (pgs in hardcover)<br />CH 29, Mat, (564): He could avoid it as long as he did not think about...The colors swirled again, and he ground his teeth on his pipestem.<br /><br />CH 29, Mat, (565): &quot;I suppose somebody has thought to tell...him?&quot; Colors flashed.<br /><br />As you can see, Mat is only implying that he's talking about Rand or Perrin, yet the colors still come. <br /><br />I'm just throwing out ideas, so tell me what you think.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Remember remember<br />the fifth of November,<br />the gunpowder, treason, and plot.<br />I know of no reason why the gunpowder's treason,<br />should ever be <br />forgot. <br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-06-18 08:09:00
subject:
<b>'bout time you got this on paper, my friend <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /></b>

body:
now i finally know what you were talking. however i have some serious issues with this theory.<br /><br />1. if the song had all the components it needed (ogier, song and aiel) how come there wasn't a massive stedding effect in the AoL?<br /><br />2. from what we've seen the song was primarily, and perhaps only, for making trees and crops grow tall and strong and more resistant against disease. like Healing for plants, if you will<br /><br />3. also steddings create peace, people don't fight in steddings. however in some way randland has to connect to our history, ie, dinosaur/cavemen etc. how do you propose the world falls into such disrepair if it's all cosy?<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">idealism not pragmatism</font><p></p>


created: 2005-06-18 11:52:58
subject: <b>Fox head</b>
body:
To answer your questions<br /><br />1. if the song had all the components it needed (ogier,  song and aiel) how come there wasn't a massive stedding effect in the AoL?<br /><br />Im thinking that the song is lost at sometime in the first age rather than the AOL because the stedding would have to retreat enough for a channeler without the spark to sense the source. The Aiel, Ogier growning songs are only a portion of the, for lack of a better term, Song Power.<br /><br />There is obviously something to the singing and at the current time (3rd age) all that remains is the tree songs of the ogier and the knowledge that something connected to song was lost. <br /><br />2. from what we've seen the song was primarily, and perhaps only, for making trees and crops grow tall and strong and more resistant against disease. like Healing for plants, if you will<br /><br /><br />As I pointed out above this is what we saw but I think it was a remnant of a far older thing. Remember we are talking about the near end of the 2nd age and channeling was discovered at the end of the age before that. You just have to look at how much accurate history has been kept alive in the current age to grasp how knowledge deteriorates over time. In AOL they had forgotten war and the DO entirely.<br />Snesing a thinness in the pattern would be required to access the darkone. However the only ones who sense this are channelers (apparently). <br /><br />3. also steddings create peace, people don't fight in steddings. however in some way randland has to connect to our history, ie, dinosaur/cavemen etc. how do you propose the world falls into such disrepair if it's all cosy?<br /><br />In the AOL they had managed to contain violence and so forth with the binding rods. But this required channeling.<br />Men are capable of evil within themselves without the DO influence. SL is an example. Access to the Finn or other worlds could also cause issues of destruction and disrepair.<br />Im not so certain that Randland has to have dinos and cavemen per se. A full cycle of the wheel will have erased all memory of the previous 3rd age by the time it comes again. Who knows song power may bring about another breaking of sorts as men contend over issues.<br /><br />All we know is that it is cyclical and that one age sets a course for the next.<br /><br />The oaths as way to control channers was an attempt to aleviate fear of channeling but for as we now know it really hasnt worked. With the Adam the seanchan dont fear channelers till they learn that the Suldamn are channelers too. TG will probably set the world on a course to limit channeling all together. Wars and so forth will be fought destruction abound. <br /><br />As I see it this will be the Last Battle with the DO in this turn but far from the last mass destruction.<br /> <br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">See that Seagull in the sky Im just glad cows dont fly.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-06-18 16:03:54
subject: <b>ahhhh</b>
body:
so your saying that the Song used to create a world-wide stedding, was seen as a remanant of in AOL, when it was just used to grow trees.<br /><br />right, so when was the Song lost and how? do you propose there was some sort of disruption between the first age and AoL? and it came back as a crop growing thing?<br /><br />even though i think i get it (i do get it, right?) i don't think it's likely. while it's true i don't have any evidence against your theory, i can't see any evidence FOR it either. i realise there'd be very little evidence to have, but you don't even support that steddings were more common in the AoL with a quote, and that to me is the crux of your theory. after all had we have seen that steddings had declined over time it'd be easier to accept. however the only way that steddings have gone into decline is the Blight swallowing one or two, this isn't natural decline, but a outside variable force.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">idealism not pragmatism</font><p></p>


created: 2005-06-18 18:19:11
subject: <b>big problem</b>
body:
if all of the components of your theory occur over and over again in such a fashion, you must be suggesting that after the age of legends the fear of channelers, song, and stedding effect were somehow skipped before the current age. which is confusing because if that is what youre suggesting, your theory is a bit of a paradox, seeing as you stated that the wheel is cyclical. so i have a question. what happened to rock and paper?


