# w_comment

created: 2003-11-18 12:48:31
subject: <b>Jordan might have used the idea already</b>
body:
I don't dislike the theory but I see one potential problem with it beside the fact I think there's no enough time left before TG in the series for something like this to happen.  <br /><br />Granted that Jordan is unlikely to parrallel the events of the Trojan War too closely, I think Rand's attack on Sammael in Illian could well qualify as the Troy/Illian connection already.<br /><br />Rand surrounded the city/land with a huge army gathered from many peoples, which is similar to the siege.  Rand could never make a frontal attack on Sammael conclusively. Rand and co. rather engineered a cunning deception that ultimately put them right inside the &quot;walls&quot;, so to speak, where Rand could neutralize Sammael and allow his army to enter/conquer Illian.<br /><br />The Gateways opening in the middle of the City and pouring out Asha'man, Saldaeans and Rand are not so different from the Trojan Horse strategy. There's even Bashere's cavalry if one absolutely needs a horse.


created: 2003-11-18 23:17:40
subject: <b>On Mierin...</b>
body:
Yar, Mierin is by far the most beautiful of the world's women. 'Course, I dunno if we can say she's really truly alive...


created: 2003-11-20 23:12:30
subject: <b>Helen on wrong side</b>
body:
Interesting theory. Your stretching with Helen/Tuon. Remember, it was Helen of Troy/Illian. Tuon would have to be on Illian's side, and she's Seanchan (though she may be in opposition to the throne before long.)<br /><br />Also, Helen was supposedly the most beautiful woman in the world, and the reason the war started in the first place. Tuon's not in her league.


created: 2003-11-21 14:58:09
subject: <b>All part of Seanchan planning.</b>
body:
The Seanchan planned all of this, though the kidnapping of the Daughter of the Nine Moons was unexpected.  They moved their settlers and military forces into Illian only to provoke Rand to attack them and suffer defeat, which they knew he would (though they suffered more losses than expected).  Once defeated Rand would reconsider his tactics and (as they were hoping) realize that a truce was the only way to beat them (if you can't beat 'em join 'em).  When Tuon was kidnapped they placed an imposter in her place.  Don't forget the Seanchan are currently in control of the male A'dam, and with it can enslave Rand to their bidding.  Rand will go to the meeting and get captured.  And the whole Mat having to gamble with two Aes Sedai may have to deal with using them as Sul'dam to get Rand out of the city (it takes two Sul'dam to control the male A'dam), but that's another topic entirely.  All of this could be wrong, but as you said, the Seanchan are great planners.  I don't think that Illian was ever meant to be attacked, only to provoke Rand.


created: 2003-11-21 23:51:37
subject: <b>Illian the City</b>
body:
The Seanchan are once more advancing into Illian, so they may be planning to confront Rand once more and try to conquer Illian. Rand is currently King of Illian and his Steward is Lord Gregorin Panar den Lushenos, so the Seanchan may have plans for the Steward. It would be a mess: Rand, a male channeler, king by right of conquest; the legitimate king Mattin Stepaneos den Balgar is still at large, probably still bundled up in a rug; and Lord Gregorin is Steward by appointment of King Rand. Of course, the Seanchan may not care about this mess.<br /><br />Furthermore, Illian is an unwalled city, protected by marshes and swamps which serve as sufficient defense against a land army. Even though the Seanchan do not yet have the Traveling capability, raken and to'raken can fly over the marshy barrier. Not to mention the fact that Seanchan is, so far, the only nation/empire to have a large navy.<br /><br />Illian, as explained by RJ, is based on Greece. To the Illianers, Illian is &quot;the City,&quot; capital C. To the Greeks, even today, &quot;the City&quot; is Constantinople, currently Istanbul, just across the small Sea of Marmara from Troy. Constantinople was impregnable, falling only twice: to the 4th Crusade, and finally to the Ottoman Turks. The Ottoman Empire serves as one of the basis for the Seanchan. Perhaps a parallel will be done in WoT?<br /><br />Let's not forget that Illian is in the south of the Westlands, and it is agreed that the Seanchan Empire will span the western and southern nations: &quot;The north shall he tie to the east, and the west shall be bound to the south.&quot;--Karaethon Cycle<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Gaeran Amaconde<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />Grand Historian at the Court of the Sun<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />One of Those Chosen to Bring the Light<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" />Master of Graendal's Revels<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" />&quot;If sometimes our dreams come true, what of our nightmares?&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-11-24 01:54:24
subject: <b>Spartans or Greeks?</b>
body:
I see some are mixing up the Spartans with the Greeks.  Agamemnon and his brother were greeks that took Sparta by marriage, since the Spartan king's heir died while he tried to rescue Helen at one particular time.  So it's true that the Greeks of that time mainly attacked Troy.  I do agree that these Spartans though were not the same warrior-culture Spartans of later as someone made it clear later.  The later Spartans were enemies of the Greeks and should not be classified as Greeks.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-12-03 17:12:33
subject: <b>Enemies of the Greeks?</b>
body:
That would be of course why 300 of them threw away their lives at Thermopylae to protect Athens from invasion, or why their approach at the battle of Marathon provoked the Persians to attack the Athenian contingent prematurely and get slaughtered, or why they drove the Persians out of Greece for good at the battle of Plataea.  Later they fought other Greek cities, but all the cities fought each other, and many Greek cities were on the Spartans' side.  They also led the resistance against the Macedonian Hegemony.  <br />It's very annoying to see how everyone always sides with the Athenians just because they wrote more plays, and produced more scientists (who have mostly been proven wrong by modern science).  The Athenians pretended to have democracy, but that was only for male, free, Athenian citizens.  They never consulted the people in cities they conquered or allied with.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


created: 2005-06-19 16:37:11
subject: <b>I agree...</b>
body:
1. THERE ISN'T ENOUGH PLOT TIME.<br />Isn't there? What is Rand doing, at the moment, apart from focusing entirely on the Seanchan? How long did it take him to conquer Cairhien, or Tear, or even to gain Illian? One chapter, give or take a few, and Illian only gave him the Crown because he had the power to take it anyway. You're also forgetting that the borders of Illian and Altara are filled with Seanchan, and so are the habors in Ebou Dar. A few thousand Aiel can't fend off that many Seanchan. Yes, there is plot time.<br /><br />2. RAND'S JUST GOING TO TAKE IT BACK.<br />I don't think he will. They are obsessed with the Hornblower, and that is Mat, who is about to marry the Daughter of the Nine Moons. They gave Rand the Crown (and keep in mind how disgusted Elayne was at the idea of Rand giving her her throne) but never really had any loyalty to him - he already had the power to claim the Crown by force, and he gave them grain from Tear. Those were their reasons. Pretty laughable, when you think of it. But Mat? The fabled Hornblower? They're going to bow to him as if he were the very avatar of the Creator. I think that when Rand forms a treaty with the real Tuon, he's going to let the Seanchan keep Illian (as in, he will not try to take it back in any way), and Illian will follow Mat (and thus the Seanchan) with actual enthusiasm and willingness.<br /><br />3. JORDAN DOESN'T STICK WITH MYTHS.<br />I agree. But first I think that you may have gotten a little too detailed in the mythology with this theory... ie, Helen and the horse. I don't think that any of that will happen. I just agree with the parallel that Illian will be sacked. As for this happening, it can. Thus far the parallels between the mythical Illian and Jordan's Illian hasn't come into play at all, except for both being port cities. So there's bound to be some future comparisons being drawn up. We have Suroth and Semirhage who have the male a'dam and are meeting with Rand, who is desperate for a truce with the Seanchan. As soon as the truce is formed, Rand will not be expecting an attack on Illian, so he will either remove all the Aiel (since Illian put up no fight or reluctance to give him the country, and Rand doesn't have to worry about ambitious nobles like in Tear) or the Seanchan will invade and slaughter the Aiel. Strong as the Aiel are, the Seanchan are just as strong and have more numbers, especially since Illian is along the Aryth Ocean, and they can send in ships from Ebou Dar. That's not nearly as much a ripoff as you would think, considering Jordan had the audacity to put a sword buried in stone. Not everybody knows another name from Troy was Illian; everybody knows about Arthur. <br /><br />SO ALL IN ALL<br />I, frankly, love this theory. Although I think it could have been just as good, maybe better, with the reference of Troy as an aside. It just makes more sense, even without the mythological parallel. Rand is like putty in Suroth's hands right now, willing to do anything to build a truce with the Seanchan. The Seanchan conquered Ebou Dar, and we know from Mat that they have an uncountable ammount of ships in the harbor, which is clear sailing to the harbors of Illian. Illian bears no true loyalty to Rand, but are obsessed with the Horn, and so it stands to reason that they won't hesitate to follow Mat and ditch Rand completely. Illian is in the south, and right against the Sea of Storms, and we know that the Seanchan will claim the south and west, which are all the nations along a body of water (except for Tear, but Tear's a nation purely devoted to the Dragon Reborn, and is Rand's only true nation, since Cairhien is going to Elayne and Illian was tossed to him like a bone to a dog.)


created: 2003-11-17 05:04:33
subject: <b>I may be wrong</b>
body:
The Shadow knew that one of the boys they were looking for made it across the river, and so they had an approximate idea of where to look. Since Trollocs and Fades won't cross deep-running water, they used other means to track them.<br /><br />I thought the whole point of the raven hunt was to find Perrin. Elyas even called it a small hunt. <br /><br />Once the ravens found them, then they could report back so other Shadowspawn could be sent to capture them.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2003-11-17 06:24:14
subject: <b>good theory</b>
body:
that is a well thought out theory, but i have to agree with Light in the Night. The shadow had a fair idea where to look. I can't say I'm keen on aram but I'm not yet convinced that he is a DF<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">The great and dreadfull day is coming,<br />Chocolate will run out. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-11-17 10:25:55
subject: <b>yeah</b>
body:
Agree with the other two. They had a fair idea of where to search. I don't think that Aram is a darkfriend yet, and even if he was, how would he tell the ravens where to go? Wouldn't that require a Mydraal? And if there was a Mydraal around, don't you think it would do something itself, rather than let the ravens find them, then move backup all along the plains, or let the ravens kill them? At any rate, even if your theory was true, I don't think Aram's grandparents were spared because he loves them, since his mother was killed right before his eyes. A good theory though.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rand.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Kneel and swear to the Lord Dragon, or you shall be knelt! - Mazrim Taim<br /><br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-11-17 10:38:52
subject: <b>I agree with the other posts</b>
body:
You send ravens precisely because you don't know where someone is - much easier to find someone if you're free to just fly around looking - plus the small band of them can be explained by a normally large gropu spread out looking.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">--If they ever come up with a swashbuckling School, I think one of the courses should be Laughing, Then Jumping Off Something--</font><p></p>


created: 2003-11-17 11:35:37
subject: <b>Interesting, but no...</b>
body:
They spent quite some time with the tinkers. If Aram were a DF and could command the ravens I don't think he would have waited till Perrin &amp; Co leave to send the birds after them. He just would have sent a single raven with a message to &quot;Daniel Darkfriend&quot; and soon after shadowspawn would have wiped the camp from the earth's face...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="#990033"><br />But trust is the color of a dark seed growing.<br />Trust is the color of a heart's blood flowing.<br />Trust is the color of a soul's last breath.<br />Trust is the color of death.</font></font><p></p>


created: 2003-11-17 19:11:27
subject: <b>Interesting...</b>
body:
But i dont like the idea that Aram is a DF. He is a friend to Perrin i think, a true friend.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Anick alSev<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /><br /><i>&quot;Till shade is gone, till water is gone,<br />into the Shadow with teeth bared,<br />screaming defiance with the last breath,<br />to spit in Sightblinder's eye on the last Day!&quot;</i><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-green.gif" border="0" /> Jedi Guardian <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-green.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-11-18 00:50:11
subject: <b>it's certainly possible.</b>
body:
always good to hear a new thought.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="Plum">Gena Sedai</font></font><p></p>


created: 2003-11-18 04:37:02
subject: <b>Which is the new thought?</b>
body:
That Aram sent the Ravens or that Aram ISN'T a Darkfriend? (see just above).<br /><br />Judging by the theory posts, it might be the latter.


created: 2003-11-18 09:30:18
subject: <b>Regardless</b>
body:
of whether or not he is a DF, I agree with Knight of the Dragon; he probably does not have the ability to command ravens. I'm not totally convinced one way or the other on the whole DF issue, though.


created: 2003-11-18 14:49:34
subject: <b>Darkfriends.....</b>
body:
don't necessarily like violence. If you'll recall at one point when Mat and Rand were making their way to Caemlyn, they ran into a young darkfriend, whose name escapes and I forget the place they met him. It was after their escape from Four Kings or whatever though. The kid didn't want to fight them or cause any trouble and if you remember, Rand ended up breaking his nose. Basically, all I'm trying to say is that darkfriends don't necessarily feel the need to be violent all the time, one of the other tinkers could have been the cause of the raven hunt. Besides, at least one person has to know where tinkers are and by that they could actually be paying attention to what's going on in their camps even if they are kind of a far away from civilization.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Brown and Gold, baby!<br />UW Cowboys</font><p></p>


created: 2003-11-18 15:51:48
subject: <b>an interesting theory</b>
body:
However, as the others have said it's not conclusive evidence that Aram is a DF, or even that there was a DF in the Tinker camp.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sir Jim<br />Lord of Minutia&#8482;<br />King of WoT MB Posts&#8482;<br /><br />Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-11-18 21:33:31
subject: <b>Good theory, but.......</b>
body:
But wasn't Aram infatuated with Egwene?  Sending Ravens would certainly put her in harms way, which I don't he would have done - even if he was a DF.


created: 2003-11-18 23:45:44
subject: <b>Egwene comment</b>
body:
Aram was infatuated with Egwene, but when he found out they were leaving, he stormed off. From the way he looked at Perrin and acted, it was evident that he could be spiteful. It is possible that because Egwene left him, he could send the Ravens and not care what happened to her. I am not saying this is the case. But it is plausible.


created: 2003-11-19 03:23:50
subject: <b>How could he have?</b>
body:
Even if Aram was a DF, what are the odds that he could have the ability to command the ravens. He can't channel, and he couldn't of ranked high enough among other DF to possibly have &quot;special ravens&quot; at his beck and call. What real good would having a DF in the Tinkers, anyway? There is no power in the Lost Ones since they cannot commit violence. <br /><br />Personal Opinion: Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder of the death of his doting mother.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> u (4n'7 54y |7 |n 1337, |7 |5n'7 w0r7h 54y|n6!<br />(Don't expect me to translate this, o you who are unenlightened)</font><p></p>


created: 2003-11-19 08:53:03
subject: <b>The point of a DF Tinker</b>
body:
It is commonly agreed by most that the song that the Tinkers seek will have an important role to play somehow in the last battle. So stopping that song from being found could be very beneficial for the Dark One. Hence, having someone on the inside would be useful. Of course, that would mean that to cover all bases, there would have to be at least 1 DF in each band of Tinkers, which does seem a little bit questionable.<br /><br />But there is still a point to having a DF Tinker


created: 2003-11-19 10:35:12
subject: <b>It would not surprize me at all if Aram is a DF</b>
body:
After all at least one Tinker <i> is </i> a high DF (TGH, prologue). <br />Aram acts strange in many ways and no other Tinker has approximately become such important like him in the story; therefore Aram is certainly the best and most likely bet for the DF Tinker.<br /><br />Nevertheless I don't believe that Aram sent the ravens. <br />It is possible (if he is indeed a DF) that he told Ishy in his dreams about Perrin.<br />But like the others, I rather think that the Shadow sent the ravens at a venture in the area where Perrin's whereabout was assumed.<br /><br />We also see in &quot;Ravens&quot; (the pre-prologue to EoTW) that the Shadow sends ravens especially if someone's whereabout is not clear because ravens can quickly search great, for Shadowspawn unapproachable areas. <br /><br /><br />


created: 2003-11-20 17:24:17
subject: <b>But why?</b>
body:
If Aram was a darkfriend, and was with Egwene and Perrin, why would he send ravens to look for them? Wouldn't it be better for him to do nothing to arouse their suspicion, and wait until some fades and trollocs showed up?


created: 2003-11-21 13:49:22
subject: <b>Not that I don't agree...</b>
body:
but Aram's mother was killed, you'd think that he would have saved her and killed off someone a little less important to him...but then again, I guess darkfriends can be ordered to do things they dont want to, or maybe she found out and had to be killed...<br />just some random ramblings <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Beka Sedai<br /><br />fell for you like a suicide from a bridge</font><p></p>


created: 2003-11-23 18:46:02
subject: <b>maybe not</b>
body:
It is a well-written theory, but common Darkfriends are not generally given the privilage of commanding Shadowspan.  It is doubtful that Aram has done enough to be allowed that power.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Sightblinder <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />And what do you burn apart from witches? MORE WITCHES!<br /><br />Frodo failed. Bush has the ring.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" /> <br />&quot;cool did we hit an iceberg?&quot;  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smackhead.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-11-29 14:27:42
subject: <b>Hmmmmm</b>
body:
I'm not sure, I don't like Aram and I think he's up to something but I don't think he's really a DF, maby he fancies Fali<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Never trust a skinny chef</font><p></p>


created: 2004-10-19 20:11:23
subject: <b>Stuff...</b>
body:
Some thoughts.  First, why does everyone think that the Song will be found before Tarmon Gai'don?  There IS no song.  This &quot;Song&quot; that the Tinkers are seeking is merely an Age-old memory of the songs the Aiel+Ogier+Nym sang to make the plants grow in the AOL.  The Tinker's goal to find the song is meaningless.  Why would the Song possibly be important?<br /><br />Even Perrin, the most likely to believe in the Way of the Leaf, dismisses it as a hopeless dream:<br /><br />&quot;Mistress, I hope you never have to face Trollocs with the strength of your belief.  The strength of their swords will cut you down where you stand...you are dead, and it's evil that has won...The Creator made the world...not I.  I must like the best I can in the world the way it is.&quot;  (TDR, paperback ed., p39)<br /><br />Second, we don't know for sure what the status of the people in the DF social is.  To say that Aram would not be a high-ranking DF is a fallacy.  Remember that Shiane and Carridin say they would abase themselves to &quot;Old Cully,&quot; the toothless, one-eyed beggar in Ebou Dar.  Aram could very well be a DF, and a very high-ranked one.  However, I tend to lean towards the thought that he's just one messed-up dude, who saw his mom murdered right in front of him.  Leave poor Aram alone.


created: 2005-05-17 11:29:10
subject: <b>I agree with Etzel</b>
body:
Whether or not Aram is  DF is something that I myself have been quite curious about.  I hope to reread the series, and have just gotten through the first book and the start of the second.  And as Etzal says, <br />     After all at least one Tinker  is  a high DF (TGH,   <br />     prologue). Aram acts strange in many ways and no other<br />     Tinker has approximately become such important like him<br />     in the story; therefore Aram is certainly the best and <br />     most likely bet for the DF Tinker.<br />that prolouge could be excellent forshadowing.  Perhaps it is just a ay for Jordan to show that there are DF's in all circles, but this plot twist seems almost too good to pass up.  I will try to find other points that hurt or help Aram's case as I continue to reread the series.<br /><br />Oh, and I think it's unlikely that he sent the ravens.


created: 2003-11-26 07:12:12
subject: <b>Me likes <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /></b>
body:
I really like the idea, and it would make a shorter way to TG if Rand doesn't have to conquer Amadicia as well... but the Seanchan really seem to be stuck in those lands they have already taken, though I guess there aren't many civilians in Amadicia yet.<br /><br />Anyways it is a good theory<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font face="bitstream vera">Quality procrastination should always be given the time it needs.<br /><font color="white"> BLANK SPACE BL </font><i>&#169;amilla</i></font><br /><br /><br /><font color="#999999"> Add yourself to the map below</font></font><p><a href="http://www.frappr.com/wotmania" target="_blank">See where wotmaniacs live!</a></p><p></p>


created: 2003-11-26 07:31:44
subject: <b>Or there's another way he can get the nation...</b>
body:
There's on factor you've forgotten to note...although you hinted at it.  Amadicia is indeed under the power of the Seanchan, but one thing we need to remember about the end of COT.  Rand is sending envoys to make a deal with the Seanchan.  If the deal is positive, then the lands that the Seanchan have already conqured will be at Rand's side when the last battle hits.  He wont need some oath of fealty to have Amadicia in his pocket.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;If it moves, you can kill it.  If it bleeds you can eat it.&quot;<br /><br />- Some guy who is particularly nasty<br /><br />The Gaidin of the Wolf speaks<br /><br />&quot;My God, I'm such a nerd&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2003-11-26 09:22:56
subject: <b>Good idea</b>
body:
I think it's possible that Aravine is related to the late King Ailron (whose House name is never told). <br /><br />Valda tells in CoT, prologue that most of Amadician nobility was killed in the Battle of Jeramel; so it could be that Aravine is now heir of Amadicia as the nearest living relative.<br /><br />But I also think that Rand will bind the Seanchan sooner or later, and thus quasi have control about their conquered lands.<br />Therefore I don't see the political relevance of Aravine's pledge, yet. <br /><br />That doesn't mean that Aravine &amp; her noble stock could not become important in another way, though.


created: 2003-11-26 11:10:37
subject: <b>i agree with Etzel</b>
body:
I think you have a good idea... it may not have importance in the way you think it does, but I like the idea anyway.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="Plum">Gena Sedai</font></font><p></p>


created: 2003-11-26 13:56:49
subject: <b>good idea</b>
body:
it could be that if the seanchan are honestly negotiated with that they may well give back the conqured lands (unlikely tho) this could be useful later tho<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Tel the ponderer of strange things <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wearer of the trilby <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> Blademaster <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-red.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-11-26 19:42:48
subject: <b>well remeber how the seanchan</b>
body:
treated tylin. they were raising her to one of the blood and were going to consolodate her control of altara anyway, maybe this is what they will do in amadacia. seanchan dont seem too interested in installing their own government in the places they conquered. remember in falme as long as people would swear the oaths they pretty much left them alone. So, maybe the seanchan will even help this amadacian lady come to power.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Whelp, I'm rich! So long losers who I've always hated.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-11-26 20:21:39
subject: <b>clever idea, and well-presented...</b>
body:
but since faile is the queens cousin of one of the most powerful nations in randland, shouldnt she know at least the names of all those nobles in power and their relatives?<br /><br />on the other hand, faile is just stupid (apologoies to faile-supporters)<br /><br />good job.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">hot damn.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-11-27 00:25:59
subject: <b>There was no real resistance in Altara</b>
body:
In Amadicia, they will probably do what they did in Tarabon, and execute the surviving noble leaders.  An appointed king would only be someone who voluntarily goes over to them (Tylin never had a chance to organize resistance, and likely rolled over as soon as it was clear who was winning - it fits what she said about Altaran rulers being used to enduring insults from greater powers like the Tower or Whitecloaks).  In Amadicia, the nobles were in the north with the Whitecloaks getting ready to fight Maseema, so they were able to bring an army to fight the Seanchan at the battle where they were wiped out.  Faile's new liegewoman would have to surrender and swear fealty to the Seanchan in order for them to put her in charge, and I can't see Faile allowing that, unless it is part of Rand's negotiations, and the good guys do it to get a sympathetic ruler among their Seanchan allies.  The Seanchan are unlikely to give up their conquests, and they have actually not done a bad job, since they quelled the civil war in Tarabon and restored order, are making Altara into a more organized and unified land (that will be more useful to Rand at Tarmon Gaidon - remember in the BWB, it was stated that the Altarans and Murandians were not very effective at the Blood Snow because of their lack of a single leader), and have eliminated the Whitecloaks as a political power that would have opposed Rand to the death.  Many people support and favor them, even in lands friendly to Aes Sedai like Andor (they outnumbered Morgase's supporters in her own capital, during a triumphal parade - the sort of thing that makes rulers' popularity soar).  If Pedron Niall had lasted long enough to lead opposition to Rand, it would have been a lot more harmful than the few thousand soldiers he could muster - Thom even denied Elayne's assertion that her mother was as powerful as Niall.  The Seanchan have taken the Whitecloak HQ, and the surviving WCs are heading towards Tar Valon, seemingly abandoning the fight against the Seanchan, which will be a blow to their prestige.  If the Seanchan are willing to follow Rand to Tarmon Gaidon, he might just be willing to let them keep their conquests, which they are managing in a manner favorable to his purposes.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


created: 2003-11-27 06:02:57
subject: <b>Nice theory</b>
body:
I like the idea of &quot;Aravine Carnel&quot; being the rightful Queen of Amadicia. I'm not sure if there's enough time  before TG to make one bit of difference, but it would be a nice twist if Faile had two Queens and one former Queen under her control.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Founding member of the ASI</b><br /><br /><b>TP ADMIN</b><br /><br /><b>Simon</b><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-11-27 10:18:31
subject: <b>good idea..</b>
body:
..it might be right.<br /><br />But there isn't enough evidence so it is nothing more than conjecture.


created: 2003-11-27 12:13:56
subject: <b>Interesting....</b>
body:
I didn't like this theory when I posted it, but seems to be doing quite well. My initial disagreement was in the fact that the Whitecloaks are in  charge of Amadicia and not the monarch. I don't like the idea that Jordan would try the same thing again too.<br /><br />Nevertheless, with the Whitecloaks facing a steep decline, power could be grasped back. How this would be possible given the current situation is a puzzle though. Perhaps, if/when this noble escapes with Faile, she will be influential enough to convince the monarch to support the Dragon Reborn/Perrin , or at least put in a good word for him.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="blue"><img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /> <b>PROUDLY CELEBRATING 10 YEARS OF WOTMANIA!</b></font> <img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /><br /><br /><font color="purple"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <b>FAQ and WoT Admin</b></font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><font color="gray"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> <b>Part-time Philosopher of the Wheel</b> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /></font></font><p><a href="/wotmessageboard2showmessage.asp?MessageID=107993" target="_blank">New WoT quizzes!</a></p><p></p>


created: 2003-11-28 17:44:39
subject: <b>hmmm...faile...</b>
body:
hmmm...faile a df? Call me unobservant, but I havn't even thought of that...implications, implications and more implications...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" />     Asha'Twan     <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br />To use no way as way, to have no limitations as limitiation.<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Lee Jun Fan<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-11-29 17:40:39
subject: <b>Hmm, not necessarily</b>
body:
Quite a large number of Cairheinen and Tearen nobles are pledged directly to Faile already.  Why should this noble not be just another such?<br /><br />In any event, Amadicia is ruled by the Seanchan now, so has no &quot;rightful&quot; queen.


created: 2003-12-05 11:14:25
subject: <b>Interesting theory.</b>
body:
Whether it has any importance later is unknown.<br /><br />I think Rand will cede the lands that the Seanchan already own to them, in return for fighting TG. And, those already here will remain, under the rule of Tuon. After all, the Seanchan are very good rulers, and certainly liked by the Taraboners. They are also doing a great job in Altara, cleaning up The Rahad and getting rid of beggars.<br /><br />It is only their weird nobility that has to change. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />For the last time: Faile is not a Dark Friend.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2004-05-23 19:31:50
subject: <b>I agree...</b>
body:
Though I'm not quite sure if Aravine will turn out to be the rightful queen of Amadicia, or just a high-ranking noble. She is definitely one or the other... the quote that got me was when she said, &quot;In this place, secrets must be held as closely as in Amador.&quot; RJ definitely has something planned for her. Queen or noble, she could go a long way to quelling any resistance Amadicia is putting up against the Seanchan once Rand signs his treaty with them. Remember, in the prologue to CoT, Rodel Ituralde is just mustering up some Taraboners to fight the Seanchan in their homeland, and Tarabon is supposed to be one of the Seanchan's strongest-held westland territories. However light the Seanchan's rule is, some will not accept it unless there is a &quot;legitimate&quot; ruler telling them it's okay.<br /><br />Another possibility that I considered... with her &quot;secrets&quot; comments, maybe she knows something that will help Perrin put down the Whitecloaks once and for all, though he already has Balwer in his pocket. Anyway, knowing closely held secrets from Amador has to be important to someone.


created: 2005-06-24 15:16:48
subject: <b>Well</b>
body:
I WOULD agree with this theory except for ONE small thing: You're basing this whole theory on the theory that Rand will, in fact, rule EVERY land in the mainlands and the Seanchan will rule NONE, rather than the &quot;land divided&quot; and the &quot;south and west/east and north&quot; theories.<br /><br />Now, I think that the Seanchan are going to rule the south and west as the prophecy foretold, and Rand the north and east. Now if that happens, then CLEARLY Amadicia will remain Seanchan territory, so this theory WILL NOT happen.<br /><br />But, of course, it's just a small, teeny little factor...


created: 2003-11-27 12:16:40
subject: <b>Yes</b>
body:
The Cleansing was obviously one of the nine impossible things, but you give a good presentation which proves it.<br /><br />Of course it can only be true if Nicola had this foretelling already before the Cleansing. <br />But I think we can certainly assume that, even if the chapter &quot;Secrets&quot; is some days after the Cleansing, because it is said that Nicola had several foretellings since the Aes Sedai learned of her talent.<br /><br />The question is, what are the other eight things which will still happen in the next books?<br /><br />Probably beating the Ever Victorious Army and creating a prison for the DO. <br /><br />Maybe surviving TG (or coming back from the death)?<br /><br />Hmm, any other ideas?


created: 2003-11-27 13:08:18
subject: <b>maybe he has already done somethings.</b>
body:
well, u say 1 down, 8 to go. but, hasn't he already done a  COUPLE impossible things?<br /><br />he has conquered The Stone in Tear.<br /><br />he cleansed the taint in saidin, which u have pointed out so nicely.<br /><br />are there more things which he has done taht would be considered impossible?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">One day a man called me crazy. So this dude punched him in the throat. It turns out I did it.<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/crazy.gif" border="0" /><br />I should be committed.<br /><br />I'm Lord of the Wolves. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-11-27 13:18:19
subject: <b>But they are Foretellings...</b>
body:
You can't Foretell things that have already happened. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br />Another one could be the destruction of Shadar Logoth, however...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="blue"><img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /> <b>PROUDLY CELEBRATING 10 YEARS OF WOTMANIA!</b></font> <img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /><br /><br /><font color="purple"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <b>FAQ and WoT Admin</b></font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><font color="gray"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> <b>Part-time Philosopher of the Wheel</b> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /></font></font><p><a href="/wotmessageboard2showmessage.asp?MessageID=107993" target="_blank">New WoT quizzes!</a></p><p></p>


created: 2003-11-27 13:29:11
subject: <b>Hmmm, kay, but...</b>
body:
Ok, sounds great! 8 impossible things to go. Can't wait, but... isn't dat a little too much to do in just a couple of books? But maybe he already did some stuff like the others before me are thinking about... that would make it a possibility. Nice theory though <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />


created: 2003-11-27 15:46:16
subject: <b>At Last!</b>
body:
A well written, and nicely presented theory. I totally agree that the Cleansing must be one of the nine.<br /><br />Certainly, this is one of the few theories that should have a 100% approval rating, and yet I see that will not happen. <br /><br />My biggest question is, what could make someone vote no?<br /><br />Congratulations for a job well done and plenty of quotes to support it! <br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2003-11-27 22:31:35
subject: <b>Damn</b>
body:
I thought you were going to tell us what the next 8 might be <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/frown.gif" border="0" />


created: 2003-11-28 03:26:04
subject: <b>I think it's a figure of speech</b>
body:
We often toss around numbers without intending them to be accurrate - &quot;I've told you a thousand times...;&quot; &quot;Ten-to-one he does this...;&quot; and so on, without actually calculating the odds or enumerating the number of times something has been done.  I kind of got the impression that Janya ment it the same way.  If the figurative number had been 12, it might have been another one of those mythological parallels (12 Labors of Hercules), but it doesn't seem unlikely.  What is more probable is that Nicola has made several different Foretellings of Rand doing things that sound impossible, and Janya is using the number nine simply to indicate there is a variety rather than a consistant pattern.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


created: 2003-11-28 05:36:24
subject: <b>Just like Cannoli said ....</b>
body:
9 seems to be just like that sort of number we use to say &quot;too many&quot; &quot;an awfully lot of...&quot; and so on. 12 is a remarquable  number for jews/christians/muslims (as they have been the same religion for over 1500 years). 12 means infinity in almost all cases (without even considering 12 * 12, 144, 144*12 ...)<br />I believe 9 is the same for WoT. There are 9 bees on the Illian flag, alright ? but then I guess it's just a custom. My guess is that it means &quot;a field of bees&quot; or something like that. All this folklore thing could even come from the AoL and the 9 Rods of Dominions, wich indicate power without measure or boundaries for the common people.<br />Any other opinion ?<br />(sorry for the spelling *low english level foreigner&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />


created: 2003-11-28 08:20:56
subject: <b>wtf</b>
body:
you obviously put a lot of time into this &quot;theory&quot;...but it seems to me that you just proved that Rand did something great by cleansing sadin....yeah...I think we all knew that<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">--If they ever come up with a swashbuckling School, I think one of the courses should be Laughing, Then Jumping Off Something--</font><p></p>


created: 2003-11-28 12:32:20
subject: <b>Thank god</b>
body:
someone mentioned the Rods of Dominion! It just seemed SO obvious to me that the 9 Rods of Dominion was what Nicola was on about that I couldn't believe no one had mentioned it!<br /><br />Of course, I could be wrong and Jordan is misleading us, it would hardly be the first time, but I really do expect the rods to come into play and ever since CoT I've believed they will each do something seemingly impossible (and perhaps actually impossible without them).


created: 2003-11-28 13:22:27
subject: <b>one impossible thing</b>
body:
I voted NO because, though I agree that the cleansing of saidin itself would be considered impossible, there is simply not enough time to do 8 more impossible things. Give me a break. It took 9 books for him to even do 1 impossible thing, and now you are saying he's going to do 8 more within 2 or 3 books? I find it highly unlikely.<br />Christianity, Judaism, and Islam been the same religion for over 1500 years? what have you been smoking. Islam, Judaism, and Christianity have fundamental differences which cannot be reconciled (for instance, Muslims reject the idea that Jesus is God; Jews reject that the Prophet Muhammad was the messiah).<br />Anyways, forget the tangent, I still don't think it's possible to fit 8 more things into the series.


created: 2003-11-28 14:36:09
subject: <b>Well, 2 of the 9 would be: he is going to defeat the Dark One</b>
body:
and die so he can live (what he was told by the Finns). That is the whole point of the series after all.<br /><br />I'm not making any assuptions about how many more books there will be - RJ's been saying 3 more books all through the series. The series is finished when it's finished and takes as many books as it takes.<br /><br />Many of you seem excited about the numerology of the number 9 for some reason. I'm not concerned about it. The quote says nine - and that's what I'm sticking with. Speculation is all very well, but actual quotes from the series is what makes a theory. <br /><br />The same thing goes for the religious tangent. In fact, I am somewhat bemused that it occurred at all.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> Linda Sedai <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Proud member of the Embroiderer's Guild of the White Tower<br /><br /><b><font color="red">FAQ admin</font></b> </font>'cos the FAQ is where it's at.<br /><br /><b>Currently working on:</b> my 70th FAQ<p><a href="http://13depository.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">The thirteenth depository : A Wheel of Time blog</a></p><p></p>


created: 2003-11-29 13:39:38
subject: <b>i two was hoping for a hint to the other 8</b>
body:
who knows.. maybe rebuilding the ways.  <br /><br />as for the religion tangent.  before it gets out of hand.  perhaps it is a misspelling of reigon.  all three religions do live in close proximity.<br /><br />people who live near eachother can share common terms and have different beliefs.<br /><br />there is an apology for poor english usage at the end of the message.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">patiently waiting for October 2009</font><p></p>


created: 2003-11-29 16:21:17
subject: <b>Sorry about the mess...</b>
body:
Yeah, I'm really sorry about the religion thing. I didn't think anyone would take badly.<br />I DID mean religion, but you misundertood (or i probably wasn't clear enough). Abraham, his kid and everything that spawned out of it is part of all three religions. The breaking (if I dare use the word) occurs with Jesus. Muslim consider him as a prophet and not the least important of them if i remember correctly. And Mohamed is just a Prophet for muslims, not some sort of messiah. So yes there are fundamental differences, but most of them are the result of events that occured after the year 0.<br /><br />Sorry about all that stuff but the only thing I meant is that &quot;12&quot; was a very important number to all 3 religions just like 9 was to Wot in my opinion.<br />


created: 2003-11-29 16:50:34
subject: <b>Cannoli's right</b>
body:
Could we also infer from the quote that the Last Battle will resemble a bilious stomach? This was meant to illustrate that Nicola's Foretellings could very well be made up.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Who can deny a Fremen the right to walk or ride where he wills?<br />      -Dune<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-11-29 17:38:08
subject: <b>1+1 does not equal 9</b>
body:
Okay, so Rand did something difficult.  Not impossible, since as you pointed out quite a lot of people said it could be done (Finns, Fel) and he did it.<br /><br />It is quite some step from there to placing the sort of credence you have in Nicola's &quot;foretelling&quot; and then concluding this was one of his Herculean tasks.<br /><br />Even assuming Nicola was right (a big &quot;if&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />, I don't think you have even attempted to explain that huge leap.


created: 2003-11-29 21:09:33
subject: <b>To InsaneJawa and Jordanian</b>
body:
<br />No I don't think Tarmon Gaidon will be pretty. Do you believe Nicola's other Foretellings mentioned in the same paragraph? Will there be no battles with the Seanchan? No Amyrlin (Egwene, for instance) imprisoned? You seem to be picking and choosing. If 2 so far have happened/are likely, what about the rest. You are merely being dismissive as the Aes Sedai were.<br /><br />The Finns and Fel do not constitute &quot;a lot of people&quot;. The Finns aren't even in the same world as Rand. All Fel said was that the Finns' reply was sound philosphically, but he could see no way to apply it. Which is a long way from saying it could be done.  It was a remarkable thing to do.<br /><br />And Rand will do more remarkable things, I think.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> Linda Sedai <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Proud member of the Embroiderer's Guild of the White Tower<br /><br /><b><font color="red">FAQ admin</font></b> </font>'cos the FAQ is where it's at.<br /><br /><b>Currently working on:</b> my 70th FAQ<p><a href="http://13depository.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">The thirteenth depository : A Wheel of Time blog</a></p><p></p>


created: 2003-11-30 02:25:08
subject: <b>On a humorous note....</b>
body:
I would think that keeping three females in love with him from killing each other would be &quot;impossible&quot; (well I couldnt do it <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> )<br /><br />Seriously, a really good theory, and I wonder if curing death may be another &quot;impossible&quot; thing?  It could be that the others all come in a rush and not spaced out as the story gathers pace (hopefully).<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Night_Watcher</font><p></p>


created: 2003-11-30 16:06:56
subject: <b>Several Possibilities</b>
body:
There are several thing that could classify as being  considered impossible in Randland:<br /><br />1) Fighting the forsaken and winning.<br /><br />2) Finding the Horn of Valere<br /><br />3) Destroying the Mashadar<br /><br />4) Cleansing Saidin<br /><br />5) Uniting the nations<br /><br />6) The stone of tear<br /><br />Things yet to be done:<br /><br />a) Cleanse the ways<br /><br />b) Return the Aiel to the Frist Oath / Finding the lost tinker song.<br /><br />c) Defeat the Dark One.<br /><br />d) Come back from the dead.<br /><br />e) Breaking the seals of the Dark One's prison.<br /><br />As you can see with just what is currently set up there is no shortage of &quot;Impossible&quot; things to be done.<br /><br />Geer


created: 2003-12-01 20:02:28
subject: <b>awesome</b>
body:
This is a great theory. I agree with some of Geer's &quot;impossible things&quot; but also with Peter- curing death... or maybe it'll just be that he'll be dead, and come back... <br /><br />oh well, good theory though<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="red">Balwer: He's what every girl looks for in a man.</font></font><p></p>


created: 2003-12-02 13:23:32
subject: <b>Rhuidian</b>
body:
He brought down the barriers of Rhuidian and then went ahead and brought water up through the depths of the desert land to make Rhuidian a populated Aiel city...<br /><br />That, too, might be considered an impossible feat.


created: 2003-12-04 12:54:13
subject: <b>Good Theory</b>
body:
Presented as a Theory should be. <br /><br />Three in a Boat brought up an interesting possibility about the Nine Rods of Dominion. I, too, believe they will be important for facing the Last Battle.     <br /><br />On that note, it is my opinion they are being guarded on the Isle of Tremalking. Even going out on a longer limb, I think they will be used to bring all the factions together to fight the Last Battle {a series of battles}.<br /><br />Sorry to go OT!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2003-12-04 14:20:26
subject: <b>Some More possibilites</b>
body:
Did anyone consider Fain's Dagger? Personally I think surviving that was &quot;Impossible&quot;. Great Post.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Evilest of the Evil Jawas.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-12-13 03:11:59
subject: <b>Come on</b>
body:
This is an Aes Sedai talking about Foretellings, of course they're going to misinterpret it and get it all wrong (that's the only reason the Elaida chapters are still worth reading IMHO). <br /><br />It's more likely to be the Aes Sedai, in summing up eveyting Nicola is doing, just generalized the number, like she remembered six 'impossible' things Nicola mentioned Rand doing, knew of more but forgot them and just guessed oh about nine. Of course, people usually say &quot;a dozen&quot; when lumping together a number like that.<br /><br />Still, Aes Sedai never do this right, and its AREINA doing the interpreting, so that's even worse. They probably think killing the Forsaken is impossible (actually aren't there about 9 of them left? Or 7 and SH and the DO?). Their ideas of 'impossible' are skewed, especially compared to the reader, who has much more information at hand.<br /><br />You're giving these third-rate characters too much credit. I put no stock in this at all, yet.


created: 2003-12-15 05:09:09
subject: <b>what about past lives?</b>
body:
I wonder if his remembering his past life, and somehow becoming LTT could be considered something impossible... i remember someone mentioning once something about that never happening once...... it might have been rand.<br /><br />Who knows, maybe he'll embrace the female half, or find a source thats the same for females and males (like they thought they found when they bore through the DO's prison...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bela.gif" border="0" /> is the creator. <br /><br />&quot;I have always been myself, even when I was ill. Now, however, I seem myself. I have remembered how to seem.&quot;<br />-King George III, The Madness of King George</font><p></p>


created: 2004-02-25 18:43:57
subject: <b>It should say &quot;The Ten Labours of Rand&quot;</b>
body:
Seeing as how the cleansing already happened, Nicola wouldn't be foretelling that he will do something he's already done. So it should be one down, nine to go.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Fortune rides like the sun on high<br />with the fox that makes the ravens fly.<br />Luck his soul, the lightning his eye,<br />He snatches the moons from out the sky.&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-04 05:26:32
subject: <b>Forget about the 9 Rods</b>
body:
Everyone needs to read the excellent theory on the Rods put forth by slinky730.  The Rods have pretty much been stated by RJ that they were rulers and the objects that those rulers held.  Sort of like the Amyrlin Seat being a ruler and her seat of power.  (See TSR: Whirlpools in the Pattern where Mat fights the playing cards.  One card is the Ruler of the Rods)<br /><br />Lastly, as to the healing of saidin, it did occur after Nicola's Foretelling.  All doubters need to remember that CoT occurred mostly during WH.  As to Rand having time to get in 9 impossible things, I'm sad to say it, but it might not happen by the end of the books.  RJ has stated recently that he means to tie up most of the major threads but that he wants to leave some dangling in order to remind us that he's telling a story of a world that keeps going after he stops.<br /><br />Anyway, congrats on the nicely done theory, linda_sedai.  It wasn't much on the theory side, but your ideas on what is happening in the book added up well.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;The reason I won't tell people though is that I am enjoying watching them squirm entirely too much.&quot; - Robert Jordan</font><p></p>


created: 2005-06-10 12:01:13
subject: <b>It's fun reading old theories sometimes..</b>
body:
I believe that &quot;Nicola's&quot; nine impossible things are a real foretelling. And that Rand's cleansing of <i>saidin</i> is just one of these things. It will be interesting to see how the dumb ass SAS dismiss her foretellings when they find out that Egwene has been captured ?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Founding member of the ASI</b><br /><br /><b>TP ADMIN</b><br /><br /><b>Simon</b><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-06-21 08:06:51
subject: <b>Did Janya accurately quote Nicola's foretelling?</b>
body:
Don't forget, that we are only hearing of it second hand.  Remember how Alviarin misinterpreted Elaida's last Foretelling - Elaida said the rebels would break like a rotted melon, then her Foretelling started, and she said it, but to Alviarin, who didn't know at what point Elaida felt the Foretelling take hold of her, it sounded like the first words of the Foretelling were: &quot;The rebels will break like a rotted melon...&quot; and that's what she told Mesaana, who was sharp enough to catch that it didn't fit in with the rest, and as a result is uncertain.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


created: 2005-10-10 18:55:24
subject: <b>Two more</b>
body:
I think we can safely say that two more &quot;impossible&quot; things that he does, will be to heal his two unhealing wounds. I take this from Moiraine herself, bless her scheming little Aes Sedai soul. &quot;What wounds of madness and cutting of hope has (emphasis on &quot;he&quot; ) he healed?&quot;


created: 2006-05-08 05:06:22
subject: <b>9 Impossible Things</b>
body:
Cleansing of Saidin is definately one of them, who's to say some of the other 8 haven't already happened.  As long as some of the 9 are still to happen it can still be called a Foretelling.  Think about all the things people have said were impossible.  He capture the Stone of Tear, as was mentioned, we returned from Rhuidean and unified the Aiel, sort of.  He made Aes Sedai swear fealty to him.  That could be four of them.  Looking forward, he'll defeat the Dark One and reseal the bore.  He might unify all of the lands.  He might forge the black and white towers together.  There's another 3.  I like the idea of rebuilding the ways, that's 8 total. How about finding the Horn of Valere, that's 9.


created: 2008-08-15 20:22:21
subject: <b>Another Possibility .....</b>
body:
I remember when I read this theory about Rand's 9 impossible things, and speculating what they could be.<br /><br />I like some ideas presented, but I would like to draw your attention to something we have heard before.<br /><br />With the Pattern falling apart due to the Dark One's Touch, is it possible that Nicola's Fortelling may not completely come true?<br /><br />I think that Rand will have a fair time accomplishing eight other impossible feats, considering he has to please the Aiel, the Sea Folk, the Boderlanders, the White Tower, the bonded Aes Sedai and Asha'man, the Black Tower, Elayne, the Seanchan, Arad Doman, Tarabon, and the other nations. Also, he has to get back with Perrin and Mat or else the Light will lose. Not the kind of schedule that allows for 8 'impossible' feats, right?<br /><br />What do you think<br />


created: 2003-11-28 04:27:30
subject:
<b>Wow, quite long! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /></b>

body:
But some good observations.<br /><br />Well, I believe that the Ajah Heads send the younger Sitters into the Hall because they have more control about them, especially important in such a dangerous situation. <br /><br />The main reason is, though, that these young sisters could be more easily recalled when the WT is reunited again (as you said they don't really care if Elaida or Egwene wins).<br /><br />


created: 2003-11-28 04:36:06
subject: <b>Another tidbit</b>
body:
Brilliant theory, I agree wholeheartedly! Something else to chew on, the BWB mentions, in the chapter on the Founding of the White Tower, that the newly elected Amyrlin seat was advised by a council of seven women, whose names are given. seven women=seven Ajah Heads? Although Ajahs for these women aren't supplied...if true, this would imply that the secret Ajah Head organisation has been around since the founding...also, Shevan mentions in COT, Ch21, that every time the White Tower has been divided, chaos has struck the world. Trolloc Wars, anyone? War of the Hundred Years? The White Tower has been divided before, and has been healed! Influence of Ajah Heads, perhaps? Food for thought, at least...


created: 2003-11-28 12:50:54
subject: <b>Not a revelation</b>
body:
This is very well argued, but it is exactly the same conclusion Siuan came to in CoT, for exactly the same reasons.


created: 2003-11-28 13:40:50
subject: <b>Great Theory!</b>
body:
Are you a political scientist or something?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I love Trillessa</font><p></p>


created: 2003-11-29 09:12:07
subject: <b>Mistake on a name</b>
body:
I said Shevan was one of the young Browns, but it's actually Juiliaine.  Sorry.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


created: 2003-11-29 09:27:24
subject: <b>Very nice</b>
body:
You and I have disagreed over other issues before, however, I will totally agree with you on this one. <br /><br />Another thing that always looked suspicious was Siuan being too young to be Amyrlin. Of course, if there was a conspiracy to put her in power, it would probably have been fueled by the BA. A young, inexperienced leader at the helm when they knew the Dragon had been reborn, could be seen as a weakness to exploit, or at least ensure she bungled the guidance and support the Tower should have provided for him.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2003-11-29 13:58:15
subject: <b>one point on the grey</b>
body:
in your mention that the grey will have three sitters that are young you mention Delana.  Since she is Black and probably going to be discovered she most likey will not be a sitter when the tower is reunited.<br /><br />just a thought<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">patiently waiting for October 2009</font><p></p>


created: 2003-12-01 14:35:12
subject: <b>I agree</b>
body:
I sent a theory that said similar to &quot;the Ajah Heads have inserted younger Sitters to work towards reunification of the Tower&quot; but I also made some stipulations on what other things this might imply.  Wish I had saved it...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Serack Doushi</font><p></p>


created: 2003-12-01 22:56:00
subject: <b>nope</b>
body:
I disagree.  What happend to the previous old sitters?  The tower doesn't get rid of sitters when they get too old (the old hall had NO young sitters).  Only after the split did we see young sitters, and only with the rebels (and also an exteremly young Amerylin).  Notice none of the older sisters are upset they didn't get chosen as sitter?  Kind of unusual given the normal ambition of Aes Sedai, huh?<br /><br />The sitters were chosen for ease of manipulation, but not because they're young - they're both ignorant and expendible.  <br /><br />150 years ago, the tower split, and when it recombined, the rebels were forgiven, but the rebel sitters and Amerylin were executed.  This history (along with much of the tower history) was never recorded.  This may not be exactly what happend, but something similar.


created: 2003-12-02 02:25:27
subject: <b>Nope</b>
body:
To Brad, two points:<br />1) The old Hall held 2 young sitters, Elaida and an as yet unidentified pre-split Sitter from Salidar. As well as a too young Amyrlin (Siuan). The FAQ on this site provides the evidence for this (FAQ: Who were the Original Sitters?)<br /><br />2) The young Sitters phenomenon is being experienced in both the loyalist and rebel AS camps (COT, Ch18, A Chat with Siuan)


created: 2003-12-02 23:32:06
subject: <b>I disagree</b>
body:
My thoughts on the issue is that the too young sitters are like an interim government. They have been brought off the bench to fill the gap until the true sitters get back to the tower and the tower is oince again whole. The reason these youngens have been chosen is because they clearly don't deserve to be there at this point in their lives, so there will be minimal dissention when the real sitters return and the newbies are asked to stand down. Further, I think the few sitters that were rightfully chosen, ie that aren't too young, were picked because the previous sitter they replaced was killed in the split rather than simply going to a separate camp.<br /><br />All in all, I think the sitters/ ajah heads are still in communication between the two camps, and are working towards a smooth transition when the tower unites once more.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;I can express more emotion than laughter, anger and let's . . .&quot;<br /><br />Shooganooga<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-12-03 16:39:03
subject: <b>Huh?</b>
body:
Shooganooga, you say you disagree, but the ideas you put out basically sum up exactly what the Theory said - the younger Sitters can be easily replaced once the Tower is reunited.  Do you disagree with the idea that they are more easily governed by the Heads of their ajah?


created: 2003-12-10 15:17:01
subject: <b>Elida's Foretelling</b>
body:
In Elida's foretelling she says the the WT will be whole and stronger than ever.  If a ajah head alliance is what created the WT in the beginning then wouldn't the same thing in a crisis now end up making it a lot stronger??<br /><br />sorry if that doesn't make sense it's all running through my head I just don't know how to say it.<br /><br />flame on


created: 2004-01-12 20:36:23
subject: <b>just a question</b>
body:
What in your opinions will happen with the ajah heads?<br /><br />there may be two halls but there are duplicate heads as well.<br /><br />oh and...the reason suian wbecame amyrilian was because too many amyrilians died in too short a time before.<br /><br />bout it.<br /><br />L8RZ!!!


created: 2004-01-30 20:35:50
subject: <b>just an answer</b>
body:
Remember, the only Salidar Ajah head we know is Myrelle, who is FAR too young.  She has only been Aes Sedai 15 years.  The fact that Sheriam, who was raised after Moiraine &amp; Siuan, and Carlinya and Beonin, who are about the same age as Siuan, are all on the council that ran things before the Hall's election, suggests the Ajah heads in Salidar might all be too young, and maybe even put in charge by the real Ajah Heads before they left (or the previous Heads could be in Salidar, with young deputies running things in the Hall).  In the case of your question, the youngsters would stand down upon reunification.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


created: 2004-02-04 07:25:46
subject: <b>maybe...</b>
body:
All this about the younger Sitters being chosen so that a) they can easily be removed after the Tower is made whole, or b) they are easy to manipulate, seems too simple. I agree that the Ajah Heads have conspired, but I don't think that's all they were aiming at. Remember, the pattern is the same among the rebels and in the Tower, and I don't think that the new Ajah Heads and the old Ajah Heads will have entirely the same agenda. Unless there is some contact between the rebel sisters and those in the Tower (unlikely) I don't see why they would all follow the same pattern. I don't know exactly what I'm saying here, but I think there are gaps in all these theories. And I'm inclined to think that the Black Ajah have something to do with it - they are the common thread running through every Ajah and between the rebels and the Tower. I doubt that Delana is the only Black among the rebels.


created: 2004-03-17 05:40:33
subject: <b>Siuan proposed as Ammrylin</b>
body:
just a brief comment about the BA proposing Siuan as Ammrylin because she was young , in aCOS (sealed to the flame) Seaine ruminates: &quot;She would not have stood against Siuan Sanche - she had proposed the girl as the Amrylin in the first place!&quot; and we know that she is NOT Black Ajah  (just to refresh Seaine and Pevara hunt the BA in the tower)<br />


created: 2004-08-11 05:13:36
subject: <b>The Younger Ajah Heads are also under control</b>
body:
I think the sisters who fled were told by their ajahs to follow a certain sister in Salidar, who was handpicked by the Ajah Head to be either easily controlled, or someone who would hand back the leadership if the rebels won.  The Ajah Heads likely have no authority over whether or not their sisters join a rebellion (though the Blue &amp; Red might, as both seem to exert the most authority over their members), or who a woman should support for Amyrlin - Myrelle was annoyed over the Greens' failure to stand for Egwene on the first vote, despite the head of their Ajah being present in support of Egwene - but they still have authority over how a sister conducts herself during that rebellion, and so woud have the authority to designate a proxy Ajah Head for Salidar.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


created: 2006-07-28 08:32:22
subject: <b>A clear conspiracy</b>
body:
Does anyone think it more than a coincidence that both sets of Ajah heads, the rebels and the Tower's have gone forward to choose too-young sitters at the same time? Clearly there is some form of communication happening. Also fromm the point of view of an Ajah head, what your goals are in this must be for either the good you your own Ajah or something more important. We can see in the books that the gains of one Ajah are always the losses of the other, so we must conclude that the Ajah heads are indeed conspiring together toward a single purpose with communication between rebels and Tower Aes Sedai. <br />As for the choosing of new sitters with a pattern, I think it likely that when the two Halls are brought together, there will be a strong question of who stay and who goes. As suggested by Siuan in the choice of an Amyrlin, it's better of those who remain were not involved in either raising Elaida or choosing to rebel as Sitters and so cannot be held responisible. <br />Having Myrelle as head of the green Ajah simply seems to be logical to me. No other Green Ajah Aes Sedai in the rebel camp has been described as being remarkable in any way, where as Myrelle started as influencial in the original group with Sheriam, as well as, having so much boldness and skill with her warders as to have Moiraine trust her with Lan. It's also likely that Lelaine is head of the Blue just as Romanda is head of the Yellow.


created: 2008-04-24 12:11:58
subject: <b>wow</b>
body:
I just think they put all the young people in the hall because shes going to be the longest Amyrlin seat and the heads have figured out that the girl will be the longest lived Amyrlin and if they loose a seat due to older age and put someone in to replace her the Amyrlin would walk all over them.  Also I think its a sign to the Rebels that the heads support her, even if there is the usual strife all of them are young and in experienced and it was thier goal to help the new Amyrlin get started.


created: 2003-11-27 13:24:46
subject: <b>I think...</b>
body:
that the (false) Tuon who dealt with the merchants was already an imposter used by Semirhage &amp; Suroth. She will be at the meeting with Rand.<br /><br />If Semirhage (or Suroth) knew where Tuon is she would probably simply catch her via Gateway. <br /><br />Also I don't understand why the Seekers wouldn't tell Karede Tuon's current whereabouts if they know it (e.g. through a homing device) but just say in the north.<br /><br />No, I don't believe that the Seanchan or the Shadow know exactly where Tuon is and with whom at the moment.<br /><br />Nevertheless I'm quite sure that the DWG will catch Mat and his party and thus &quot;free&quot; Tuon quite soon.


created: 2003-11-27 15:19:12
subject: <b>I doubt it</b>
body:
(I replied to this when you posted it on another site too).<br /><br />I don't see why it matters if the Seeker is lying. Karede said &#8220;This rumor has passed to our own people.&#8221;<br /><br />I don't see any proof that the story about the girl is false either.  Mor isn't saying that he thinks it's really Tuon extorting money.<br /><br />It's also very simple for a Seeker to find out she's to the north.  He knows exactly who disappeared and when.  Tylin's Toy, Thom, Renna, Seta, 2 damane, Noal, Juilin, Thera, Egeanin, Domon, Tuon, and Selucia all disappeared at the same time.  Logically the seekers would think that these might be connected.  The guards at the north gate would know who they saw that night, and they wrote down the names of the damane.<br /><br />&quot;The officer of the guards, a burly Seanchan with tilted eyes like a Saldaean but pale honeybrown skin, bowed courteously and invited Egeanin into the guardhouse, to have a cup of spiced wine while a clerk wrote down the information about the damane.&quot;<br /><br />and why would Tuon tell Suroth?  She doesn't trust her.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Wartherded by Phil Reborn<br /><br />CW</font><p></p>


created: 2003-11-28 05:21:54
subject: <b>One point...</b>
body:
A well thought out theory.  However, I disagree with one point.  You used the meeting Suroth has set up with Rand for evidence in support of your theory.  I don't think she did it because she knows  the whereabouts of Tuon. She did it because the Seanchan version of the prophecies say the Dragon must bow to the Crystal Thrown.  And don't forget about the male a'dam she has in her possession.  She wants to capture him.  If she uses that, Rand's odds don't look very good.  Shipping him across the ocean wouldn't be too difficult.  She was presented with an opportunity to aid in fulfilling a prophecy and took it.  Simple as that.<br />Other than that, good job.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">~Nym~<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" />Dovie`andi se tovya sagain!<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-11-28 07:21:43
subject: <b>Here's what implicates Suroth</b>
body:
Before Tuon arrived in Ebou Dar, she &quot;lost face&quot; by losing her temper with her damane. In response to this, she donned her veil, and became &quot;High Lady Tuon&quot;. None of the Westlanders know of her by any other name. And at the time of her kidnapping by Mat, she was still wearing the veil, so even the Seanchan in Ebou Dar should still be calling her by that name.<br /><br />When Suroth says Rand will meet with &quot;The Daughter of the Nine Moons&quot;, she implicates herself as part of a conspiracy by using that title.<br /><br />Homing devices like Moiraine gave the boys in tEotW, would only be something of the One Power. I think we can rest assured that the Seekers and the DWG don't channel. <br /><br />OTOH, if Anath is Semi, she might have given such a device to Tuon to keep track of where she is. Knowing she is a safe distance away, may give her and Suroth the reassurance that they can get away with using an imposter for their own ends. Much better than relying on the real Tuon to go along with their plan to capture Rand, as we have heard she is a &quot;willful charge&quot;.<br /><br />And as to Suroth's order to kill a Seeker every day until Tuon is found, it's likely she found out one of them is investigating her. At the very least, she has the right to be paranoid about what she is doing. Killing off Seekers and having them concentrate on finding Tuon helps thwart that investigation and buys her time to do her task.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2003-11-28 07:55:19
subject: <b>semirhage</b>
body:
we know that suroth is going to present someone false as the daughter of the nine moons, however it is also safe to assume that she is under semmy's thumb, whether she knows it or not. what if semmy showed up as the dotnm (i mean, rand thinks hes gonna meet tuon but instead semmy walks in...) is this just a ploy to get semmy near rand so she can try to kill him with the power?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">hot damn.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-11-28 12:45:58
subject: <b>DO we</b>
body:
know that Suroth is going to present a fake DotNM? It's certainly a possibility, perhaps even likely, but I don;t think we can say that for certain.<br /><br />Unless someone has found a way to put that final part of CoT with Rand in a timeframe with everything else that's going on (in particular the end of Mat's chapters) that is.


created: 2003-11-28 21:40:07
subject: <b>I don't think we can know for sure</b>
body:
that it's a fake.  in the Epilogue, Rand thinks to himself that it's almost Spring, so he's not too far into the future.  But say Karede catches up to Mat &quot;tomorrow.&quot;  If they hurried back to Ebou Dar they could get there in like 3 days, so it would still be Spring and Tuon could make it to the meeting.  I think it'll be a fake though.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Wartherded by Phil Reborn<br /><br />CW</font><p></p>


created: 2003-11-28 21:53:35
subject: <b>well....</b>
body:
not that i believe it will happen but what if its a trap not just for rand but for tuon. the seeker has sent off almost all the DG and damane that are loyal to tuon.<br />what happens when she hears what is going on and goes back? or what would the DG do to suroth if they found she had some one impersonate tuon.<br />interesting theory though


created: 2003-12-01 07:13:23
subject: <b>It's well into March</b>
body:
Egwene met with the nobles in PoD on a holiday the Big White Book says falls on the second day of the ninth month (February 4 on our calender - 1 WoT month = 28 days), and said that they would leave that spot in one month.  Elayne met the Borderlanders on the same day Egwene Traveled to Tar Valon, and had made at least 5 two-day trips out of Caemlyn by the time Rand cleansed saidin (she says she made them all since learning about the approaching army), so the cleansing happened no sooner than the equivalent of March 14.  Since Rand's real world birthday would be December 3rd, and it was snowing then, winter starts at least as early, if not earlier than it does in the Real World(TM), so yeah, spring is damn close.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


created: 2003-12-02 23:51:23
subject: <b>A problem</b>
body:
This theory seems to be a bit holey for me. At no stage did you really PROVE that either person knows where Tuon is. There has been considerable talk of Suroth's ulterior motives in regards to Rand, so her statement about meeting tDotNM can't be used as the sole source of evidence, and I think from all we've seen that it is excedingly unlikely Tuon would confide in Suroth what was revealed on the boat. Remember that Suroth is a member of the blood too.<br /><br />It is also just as likely that the seeker is sending Karede to the North for purposes of his own.He has been shown to be a bit of a tricky bugger, and I seriously doubt he believes the story he has presented to Karede. Maybe he wasnt's him gone for entirely different reasons.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;I can express more emotion than laughter, anger and let's . . .&quot;<br /><br />Shooganooga<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-12-04 20:34:09
subject: <b>Thom spreading rumors...</b>
body:
I just assumed that the rumors about Tuon were being spread by Thom. At this point he was still making visits to the city, and the rumors about her placed her in the city somewhere still &quot;...extorting gold and jewelry from merchants here in Ebou Dar.&quot; Sounds to me like someone's trying to make it look like she's still in Ebou Dar.<br /><br />In &quot;Two Captains&quot;, Luca says &quot;As soon as Thom returns from the city....&quot;<br /><br />So how could any of that part be a conspiracy with Suroth, if Thom is planting the rumors, and the Seeker is investigating Suroth?<br />Doesn't make much sense to me, sorry<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" /> When I have time to kill, I'm comming back for you. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-11-28 12:33:14
subject: <b>eh??:S</b>
body:
what is up with the conflicting randland seanchan prophecys. both cant happen (or can they) so presumablyone is right and the other is bs. personally i am in favor of the seanchan one being a piece of propoganda used to convince the 'natives of seanchan' to follow them.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> let the speedbart ride again upon the winds of time <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Made the second post on the new WoTMB2 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2006-04-14 07:40:50
subject: <b>looks like I was wrong...</b>
body:
I was wrong!  Suroth arranged the meeting between Rand and 'Tuon' because Semirhage planned to diguise herself as Tuon at that meeting, not because Suroth knew the location of the true Tuon.<br /><br />Oh well.


created: 2003-11-27 12:16:00
subject: <b>umm</b>
body:
Well... I could be an ignorant, missing-the-point butt.  So I will!<br />Remember you're not messing with physical elements that are tangible in the world before you, you are forming weaves from the true source when you channel!  Not only that, but you're not just 'weaving together' elements, you're creating a small pattern, an actual weave eg like not quite, but similar to a weave the wheel makes!  Liiiiike weaving one element!  So if your theory of actually 'channeling,' the way Robert Jordan invented it, sorry bucko.<br />Now I'll be a bit more open to thought.<br />Actually touching things around us sure, though I do not believe we do have the mental capacity to distort the world around us.  There's alot of new age theories floating about, similar to your own.  My dad's practicing some similar one called Reiki, that involves similar mind something techniques to heal and what not.  Maybe they're all the same thing, maybe they don't exist.  Too much is floating around out there that I'm not going to stick to any just one until science proclaims at least one of them or a group of similar ones to all be the same thing and be true.<br />So jah, I voted no due to A) Real channeling does not exist because The True Source does not exist and B) I don't believe in these new age techniques yet!<br />But good analogy none the less!  Kudos for you!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">~~Da'Tsang!<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/w00t.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" />&quot;Lasta Lalaithamin sii' kela!&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> Smocking...<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-11-27 12:21:24
subject: <b>Nice idea...</b>
body:
and some interesting parallels but I doubt that RJ thought about &quot;Hemi-Sync&quot; when he invented Channeling for the books.


created: 2003-11-27 15:51:15
subject: <b>Cool</b>
body:
Yeah channelling is definately a reality. Check out reiki or kundalini or tantra or yoga or tai chi or a traditional martial art or find out about chakras or qabalah... We are not at the age of legends yet but we'll get there... maybe not in this age though.<br /><br />If you are totally sceptical about this and need proof, try an experiment. Go out side and find a small cloud (start off with a real small one). Concerntrate on it, on making it disappear. I find imagining a ring of fire around it, heating it up, works the best.  Try it for five to ten minutes. You'll be surprised. Honestly!


created: 2003-11-27 18:31:05
subject: <b>Doubt it</b>
body:
I think it is just magic.<br /><br />Why?<br />1) RJ hasn't made any effort to keep the effects of channeling mental - they are obvious and physical effects, so I think he just had magic in mind (as opposed to other authors, such as Katherine Kerr, who deliberately limit the power of magic when it comes to physical manifestation).<br />2) There is no way that mental powers could do those types of things, so even if it did come from the physical realm, it would be magic once it reached the state in does in WoT.<br />3) WoT is obviously a magical world with the Creator, Dark One, different races, the mystical pattern and ta'vern, people and races with extra powers, etc etc, so if you have a magical world, the powers are likely to be magical.


created: 2003-11-27 18:32:57
subject: <b>JAY JAY</b>
body:
Try this as an experiment - pick a cloud and watch it without trying to make it go away for ten minutes. Record how many times it spontaneously leaves. After 100 tries, compare what effect your effort made. Answer, no diff.


created: 2003-11-27 18:41:42
subject: <b>Isn't...</b>
body:
Isn't &quot;Hemi-Sync&quot; what they use to power the engine in the new Ford F-150?<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />


created: 2003-11-28 03:33:22
subject: <b>A little backround to the accual technology</b>
body:
Since Most seem to be against this theory... (and without knowing more about it I don't hold it against you, espesially because it is a theory).<br /><br />To start off many of you are saying that RJ's &quot;channeling&quot; is not a menatal manefestation. I disagree with that in a way; just like I dissagree that my theory is a mental manifestation. <br /><br />1. RJ's &quot;channeling&quot; is physical... but they concentrate mentally on the weaves and how they would be created.<br /><br />2. My theory is much the same. Where the energys it would take are a consentration of the mind... they would happen physically.<br /><br /><br />Now... before I go further on the how... a bit of background. Hemi-Synic IS a science. Even the U.S. government has been useing it. Doctors now use it. You can become a Licenced Cirtified &quot;Remote Viewer&quot;. And for those who don't know what that is... Basicly (Very Basicly) being able to step out of body or journey with your mind and see events taking place now... read papers or documents (even when locked up in a vault with security watching)... track things that are happening... track things that will happen... or guide lost souls or ghosts to a place where they can &quot;move on&quot;. <br />      The science also alows you to heal yourself. Physically... Mentally... Emotionally... Ect. <br /><br />      For more info go to www.hemi-synic.com. It IS scientifically proven. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Now for more of the how. For those of you that think that this cannot produce a &quot;weave&quot;...  <br />If you could see mplecular structures and differeniate between them (and were good with science <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />) that coupled with telekenisis (telekenisis is moving things with your mind) you could push the diferent molecules nessesary together (forming a weave) to do diferent things. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Any  other questions?<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> Ask me. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Mariah Sedai


created: 2003-11-28 06:29:42
subject: <b>Interesting stuff</b>
body:
Especially since modern science is now learning so much about the workings of the human mind. Given the fact that we use so little of our over-sized brain, it will be rather exciting to see what can be accomplished in the future. Unfortunately, most of us won't live that long.<br /><br />I don't know if Jordan knew about these techniques, however, it does lend a little credence to some of his ideas.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2003-11-28 08:08:48
subject: <b>real</b>
body:
although i dont think it could be called a science in the true sese of the word. ts too variable for that. yeah, i take martial arts and theres plenty about &quot;extending oneself&quot;. most people use their chi too break boards ?(or rather strengthen their fist, thumb, foot...head <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />)<br /><br />and i have a friend who does reiki.<br /><br />good job.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">hot damn.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-11-28 10:12:44
subject: <b>I Dream of Genes</b>
body:
As far as we know, channeling is a genetic trait inherent in 2-3% of the population. The gene for channeling is recessive. Perhaps in the distant past, humanity had channelers, but the ability may have been culled out. Nevertheless, that gene is probably still within us, hiding. With Hemi-Sync and genetic engineering, we could have channelers.<br /><br />The True Source? The energy of the time-space continuum of our universe. Our scientists are still trying to tap into that energy. Perhaps first, these scientists create devices to tap the True Source (ter'angreal?), then genetically engineer some humans to tap the Source. These first channelers may need Hemi-Sync to be convinced that they are able to channel. Their channeling ability may be weak at first, so the scientists help create devices to enhance their weak ability (angreal and sa'angreal). Sounds like a progression into the Age of Legends! Such unconventional experimentation could only be had through LOTS of money or the pressure of a major war.<br /><br />The effects of Hemi-Sync that Mariah Sedai describes sounds a lot like Compulsion (Compulsion does not have to be achieved with channeling, albeit it may be the easiest way to do it: hypnosis is a very crude form of Compulsion). The device Compels the patient into believing that he/she's healed, that he/she can do &quot;impossible&quot; things. The Remote Viewing could also be Compelled (&quot;I Command you to depart your body and look into the White Tower Secret Archives!&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />). Graendal would love to get her hands on this technology.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Gaeran Amaconde<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />Grand Historian at the Court of the Sun<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />One of Those Chosen to Bring the Light<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" />Master of Graendal's Revels<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" />&quot;If sometimes our dreams come true, what of our nightmares?&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-11-28 13:40:37
subject: <b>Science</b>
body:
Ah yes, forgive me for saying new age religions, because alot of them have little or none religious value.  Sciences I guess would be the category to place them, but still theories none the less.  It's all very, very interesting truely.  But none the less, the actual 'channeling' I believe shan't happen.  Something very similar perhaps.  But consider things like balefire for example.  Burning out a strand in the weave indefinitely...  and other factors like rotting if not using it.  I doubt people will ever rot from not using these riveting concepts, and so forth.  Jordan ties channeling to many, many other factors in his world that just don't quite exist.  There may be similar things in this world, but not exact.  So big thesis point:  Something similar to channeling may exist one day, but channeling itself as Jordan created it will not.  Also take into account back when he wrote the first book, the time, few new age sciences had emerged and so I highly doubt he's built off a modern day idea for his world of magic.  Just somethin he created, something nonexistant and remaining nonexistant because you can't simply 'invent' channeling.  But not to get the supporters wrong or anything, maybe something similar shall some day.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">~~Da'Tsang!<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/w00t.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" />&quot;Lasta Lalaithamin sii' kela!&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> Smocking...<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-11-28 17:19:01
subject: <b>far reaching...</b>
body:
It is said that humans only use 10% of our brains...if the other 90 is simply some sort of psychinc muscle in atrophy then who knows...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" />     Asha'Twan     <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br />To use no way as way, to have no limitations as limitiation.<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Lee Jun Fan<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-11-28 18:35:11
subject: <b>brain and leprechauns</b>
body:
saying thatthe unsued portion of your brain is capable of psychic powers with no true experiments(based on scientific method) to support it is like saying that an empty closet is full of leprechauns.... you may WANT it to be true but it just isnt. <br />sorry.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Mjolner <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bobbafett.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br />Somewhere, something incredible <br />is waiting to be known. <br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-11-28 20:10:18
subject: <b>With respect may I say bollucks?</b>
body:
It is said that humans only use 10% of our brain. Sure, and it is said, by certain groups, that the world is flat and the moon landing was a hoax by NASA. The figure of 10% was a wild guess made a couple of decades ago (and is probably terribly inaccurate), and refers to the amount of the brain that is used for cognitative processes. The rest of the brain (90% of whatever) is used for the mundane old running your body which is a really tough task (so tough that some animals have a seperate brain for it). And like it was said, assuming that any unused portion of the brain is latent for psychic abilities is crazy - why would evolution (which is 100% responsible for the creation of our brain) grant us this amazing power (which would be physically impossible) without a selective force (and since we don't use it, obviously there was no pressure to evolve it)?<br /><br />Just looking at the Hemi-Sync website, it looks like a complete load of bollucks. People use the term &quot;scientifically proven&quot; extremely loosely. It isn't like there is a central body that grants approval for the use of the term. You could label anything you want as scientifically proven. So they have this big marketing ploy which they are vague about how it works and what it does. I can't see any reason not to put this in a bag with crystals and star signs.<br />


created: 2003-11-29 17:43:14
subject: <b>Don't mock the afflicted</b>
body:
It's okay Mariah_Sedai, you just go and have a nice cup of tea and a lie down.  And when you wake, just try to remember: &quot;It's only a book. It's only a book. And it's fantasy.&quot;


created: 2003-11-30 11:23:47
subject: <b>finally</b>
body:
Wow, some sanity in this thread..<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Mjolner <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bobbafett.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br />Somewhere, something incredible <br />is waiting to be known. <br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-11-30 17:58:49
subject: <b>To Adrian</b>
body:
It is possible that you are right and the other 90% (or whatever) of our brains is used to run our bodies. My only question for you is how do you explain a bird? A bird's brain is a lot smaller than mine (despite what my Dad used to say) and yet their bodies are just as complicated as ours. In addition they have to do things that no human would be capable of. Try landing on a twig that is moving chaotically in the wind while being buffeted around by the same wind. Yet a sparrow can do it every time.<br /> <br />To mariah sedai, I believe that man will eventually develop abilities that resemble channeling. I think that teleknesis and teleportation are definitely possible in the future. Whether that is Channeling or not is up to interpretation. Maybe yes, maybe no. I voted yes to your theory for that reason. I doubt that ALL aspects of channeling will be manifest tho.<br /><br />NaCl(channeling is possible...I just did it)H2O<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Any comments on my photos appreciated</font><p><a href="http://saltwater.smugmug.com/" target="_blank">My photos, a work in progress</a></p><p></p>


created: 2003-11-30 19:40:55
subject: <b>Okay</b>
body:
How do I explain a bird? Well yes they have smaller brains, but they are also much smaller creatures, and evolution has pushed them to minimise their weight for flight. That is why birds have smaller brains than other animals of comparative size. Look at a whale - when evolution has no size constraints, the whale brain is absolutely enormous, far far bigger than a humans. And baleen whales (eg the Blue Whale) are not even that smart (as filter feeders they don't need to do much, the hunters such as Orcha and Dolphin are much smarter), so again you would assume that the larger the body, the larger the brain required just to take care of the body mass. So if you compare a human and an ape you see that besides from the cortex (the &quot;thinking&quot; part), the size of the brains is pretty similar. If you ignore the overall size of the brain and just concentrate on the cortex, the human brain is much bigger than other animals on a body weight ratio. However if you then take into account all of the brain power (that originates from the corte<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /> required for language, maths, logic, facial recognition, and memory (all much greater than other animals), by current neurological standards, humans are running at pretty much capacity, so there is very little &quot;un-used brain&quot; lying around. This is based on a guess (how much redundency is there between different functions? How much brain power do you need for each function?), but it is a very well educated guess by the best neuroscientists, unlike the old adage &quot;90% of our brain is unused&quot;.<br /><br />Finally, if there is a part of our brain unused, why would evolution have given it the ability for teleknesis or teleportation? Besides the fact that they are physically impossible, there is no selective advantage for a trait that is unused.<br /><br />


created: 2003-11-30 20:46:37
subject: <b>channeling can be a reality</b>
body:
The cloud thing does work and i suggest anyone to try it. Anyway, i believe that one day, channeling will become a reality, and infact I say it has been a reality and I feel these are the things Mr. Jordan drew from. All you have to do is look to china or to other ancient cultures. The egyptians, norse and the south americans. South American myth talkes of dwarves with flutes, that when played could lift objects into the air. Ter'angreal perhaps? Myth has often been said to be truth. And lets not forget..&quot; ..Ages come and pass, leaving memories that become legend. Legend fades to myth, and even myth is long forgotten when the age that gave it birth comes again.&quot;<br /><br />Peace!!!


created: 2003-11-30 21:47:04
subject: <b>Let's not forget, WoT is a book...</b>
body:
...there is nothing profound or holy about RJ.<br /><br />Ancient cultures believed lots of stupid things (eg the world is flat, or carried by a turtle, etc etc) because they didn't have science to explain things, so they made up stories instead. Doesn't mean they are true, especially now that we have science to say what is possible, what isn't, and what were the actual phenomenon behind the stories (ie we have static electricity instead of a lightning god). <br /><br />And seriously, for that cloud thing, clouds do dissapear by themselves.<br /><br />No offence,<br />A.


created: 2003-12-01 09:56:09
subject: <b>Supporting Adrian</b>
body:
The 'you only use 10% of your brain' quote is one of the most commonly misquotes floating around on the web. You see, the original and roughly correct quote was 'you only use 10% of your brain AT ANY GIVEN TIME'. When you are, for example, focusing on jogging, you are not using your language neurons, and when you are listening to music with your eyes closed, parts of your brain involved in seeing are doing just about nothing. OK, most of them are in fact independantly redundant, as a double security so you won't turn into a plant if you hit your head just once, but this makes all evolutionary sense. <br /><br />Nobody has, as yet, been able to prove the existence of any sort of psychic phenomenon under scientifically controlled circumstances. Even those few times that it did work with precognitive abilities (guessing the next card) they could never be repeated and a computer turned out to have the same level of succes once in a million times, so it was just a statistical fluke. If anybody could, I daresay we would all know because several people have offered fortunes to anyone who could prove it. As to the American government trying to use it during the Cold War; they were simply so terrified they would have tried anything (they are said to also have tried healing by prayer on people with radioactivy infection) and they quit spending money on it because it didn't work. <br /><br />This is, of course, something different from the scientifically proven ways of improving your minds control over your own body like tai chi, some martial arts and reiki. Please notice you also don't have to have some sort of special gift for these things, like some psychics claim. The only things you need are discipline and a lot of practice.<br /><br />I hope I have helped clarify this argument. Perhaps it is not very nice of me to say so, but I don't think this belongs on the theory post, since the whole argument is based on a gros misquote. <br /><br />


created: 2003-12-01 14:01:03
subject: <b>Why do ignorant (and supposedly intelligent) people aways piss on New Age ideas?</b>
body:
It seems that most of the people in this day and age tend to disregard ideas such as Hemi-Sync, Crystals, Reiki and such as balderdash. IMO, these people are full of crap.<br /><br />Magic, the Force or channeling (whatever word you choose to describe it) is simply the ability to manipulate energies that we have yet been able to identify. It is an act of utmost hubris to think that modern man knows everything (most ages of man have seen this arrogant attitude).<br /><br />One thousand years ago a computer would be considered magical, as would a simple flashlight. Why? Because at the time they had no concept of the forces/energies involved.<br /><br />There are many things that we don't understand as of yet. Take acupuncture. The World Health Organization, after decades of research, has concluded that it does work. Yet, they have no clue as to how or why (it is more than the placebo effect; but then the placebo effect borders slightly on the whole mystical side-- the fact that BELIEF alone can change the physical world).<br /><br />Quantum Physicists are starting to realize that there is no difference between matter and energy; that everything is made up of &quot;Strings&quot; of energy vibrating at different frequencies (this is called String Theory, and you can find plenty about it on the net, including a recent episode of Nova on PBS). I think it likely, that in maybe say 500 years (and I think that is a CONSERVATIVE estimate) scientists will have found ways to manipulate the frequencies at which given &quot;Strings&quot; vibrate, causing profound changes in what that String forms. Would this not be magic?<br /><br />What New Age really is, something that too many people are to dense to understand, is not accepting the fact that Science knows EVERYTHING. It is mule-headed stubbornness in the belief that we are as advanced as we possibly can be.<br /><br />And it is not a Religion (I don't even want to get into religion here, because many of the people in the world don't even seem to understand the IDEA behind their particular faith, rather they only think what someone &quot;Closer to God&quot; than they tell them to think).<br /><br />Don't discount something just because it is (or seems to be) &quot;New Age.&quot; Remember, everyone discounted Copernicus and Galileo...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">--imlad</font><p></p>


created: 2003-12-01 23:20:02
subject: <b>Ignorant? I'd think first before calling people that.</b>
body:
Ideas such as Hemi-Sync, Crystal, etc are dismissed because they are rubbish. They don't work, that is all there is to it.<br /><br />Science (as you'd know if you'd ever done it) is about observation. Scientists always try to observe and measure nature, and they they try to explain it. Observation first.<br /><br />That is why things like acupuncture and buddhist monks having more control over their body temperature are accepted by scientists, even though we are not sure how they work (the placebo affect is well known and somewhat understood, it is not magical in any way). On the other hand, things like crystals are not accepted because they don't work. Put it in any test you want, and nothing happens. It isn't a matter of science ignoring what they can't explain, it is a matter of science ignoring what doesn't happen.<br /><br />A thousand years ago a computer would have been considered magic, yes. That is because without science you can only make up stories. We now have the ability to find out why things happen, so we have no need to make up stories.<br /><br />As for quantum physics, you really are taking string theory way out of context (an act of utmost hubris? to think you can understand what people spend their life trying to work out? to use their research to &quot;explain&quot; magic?). The string theory states that matter/energy is a string-like particle. Changing the frequency at which strings vibrate is changing what they are (matter into energy, for example), and happens every day in nuclear reactors. This isn't magic though. If you could do it with your mind, that might qualify for magic if you were so inclined, but it couldn't be done. You say it is hubris to say it couldn't be done? Maybe, but then it would be just as prideful to say it could be done, and with far less evidence.<br /><br />&quot;What New Age really is, something that too many people are to dense to understand, is not accepting the fact that Science knows EVERYTHING. It is mule-headed stubbornness in the belief that we are as advanced as we possibly can be.&quot;<br />Well, what New Age really is, something that New Agers are so dense they don't realise they are doing, is the suspence of skeptical thinking. Yes, we took thousands of years to create logical thinking, and New Agers blow away logic and believe in complete bollucks for no justification. Maybe some of your stuff could be, but without evidence you might as well believe that the earth is hollow. Science doesn't know everything, but it is a method of observation (and hence explaining) that can be applied to any phenomenon. Maybe you should try it.<br /><br />&quot;And it is not a Religion (I don't even want to get into religion here, because many of the people in the world don't even seem to understand the IDEA behind their particular faith, rather they only think what someone &quot;Closer to God&quot; than they tell them to think).&quot;<br />You might want to think it isn't a religion, but it is. The belief in supernatural with no evidence.<br /><br />&quot;Don't discount something just because it is (or seems to be) &quot;New Age.&quot; Remember, everyone discounted Copernicus and Galileo...&quot;<br />I don't discount something I don't understand, but I do discount something if you can't show it happening at all (which is most, but not all, New Age). Copernicus and Galileo are good examples - scientists who took a basic observation and showed all the non-skeptical thinkers around them that they were wrong. Maybe you should consider the fact that these discoveries all happen via scientists, and non via New Agers.


created: 2003-12-02 05:53:45
subject: <b>Again supporting Adrian against Imlad</b>
body:
Dear Imlad,<br /><br />Before you try to give string theory as an explanation for psychic powers and other New Age phenomenons, please remeber that this is a theory for which there is less evidence after decades of study and experimentation then there was for Einsteins relativity at the moment he conceived it. Relativity immediately explained several phenomena (orbit of the inner planets) and within a few years there was independent evidence (bending of light around Jupiter). Nobody has, as yet, been able to predict and measure a physical phenomenon on the basis of the string theory. As Nobel Prize laureate Van 't Hoofd recently said at a lecture I attended: They can't even get the mathematics to fit. There is not sufficient proof to assume strings exist. Obviously, this makes your whole argument fall apart. <br /><br />I am strongly sympathetic to Adrians argument of using logic to explain natural phenomena. However, I disagree with him in calling New Age a religion. Religions have an often very useful moral message to go with the belief that there is &quot;something larger then ourselves&quot; whether that is God, Allah or whatever. In my opinion New Age very often has more to do with the one crook born every minute getting money out of the pockets of the sixty fools.<br /><br />If you want to know more about many of these things, I would strongly recommend you read Science of Discworld 1&amp;2, written in collaboration by Terry Pratchett and two scientists whose names I unfortunatly can't remember. It is about logic and the mistakes people often make in applying it, and very humorous at times.


created: 2003-12-02 11:57:15
subject: <b>Good greif</b>
body:
ok have to go with the other scientists here so far.  If you can find me someone with a PHD who works at a college and has written an article for a peer reviewed journal that shows this might be real then I will have a chance at believeing it.  Otherwise your wasteing both my and your time.  Lets not make this mistake of the people that started another religon based on recent fantasy novels (forget the name damn the one all those idiotic hollywood people are in).  Robert Jordan isn't and has never claimed to be divinely inspired.  Its a book and is fiction nothing more.<br /><br />Are there things not thought of in my philosophy most certainly yes does something exist that is larger than myself?  I think so but thats an emotional belif not a scientific one.  When you start about me ME who is certainly not a prophet or in any way divine being able to effect miracles with the power of my mind you better have some real proof to back it up.<br /><br />Haven't seen the evidence the world health organization used to say acupucture worked but would take it with a grain of salt the world health organization is a political not a scientific body.  It may very well work, but the reasons they give for why it works are ridiculous and very much unproven as are the ideas of wood, fire ect energy that are part of traditonial medicine.  If you want to start talking about energy fields and forces you better be able to measure them otherwise I'm not going to take you seriously.


created: 2003-12-02 12:28:39
subject: <b>Let's all just take a step back...</b>
body:
First, I want to say that I can see good points on both sides of this arguement.<br /><br />Second, there is one very important issue here which some of the posters have touched on, but no one has really fleshed out.  That is the idea that anything that can't currently be explained by a person's understanding of the world is explained away as &quot;magic.&quot;  <br /><br />Like someone above stated, if you were to take a computer or a flashlight back to 1000 A.D. the people would think it was magic.  There is a similar urge today, with many events being determined to have been caused by UFOs, aliens, and things like that.  One of those, crop circles, was later shown to have been made by a couple of men, some boards, and some rope!  Just goes to show you that sometimes you have to look deeper.<br /><br />Thirdly, however, there is the fact that no one alive today can reliably say what will happen tomorrow, next week, next year, or next millenium.  In the future there could be some evolutionary pressure which pushes humans into developing ESP (Extra Sensory Powers).  There could be some fundamental change in our ideas of physics, of the fabric of the universe we live in, that would allow scientists to change mankind to take advantage of our surroundings in ways that today seem fanciful.  For that, I refer to my above statement about the computer and flashlight.<br /><br />Lastly, I want to highlight something I read not too long ago no a website devoted to quantum physics.  The statement was made that physicists are today starting to think that the universe is so complex that there may never be a &quot;Grand Unified Theory of Everything&quot; to explain everything from how a star burns to why friction keeps your shoelaces tied.  We may never be able to understand all of what happens around or within us.  Those things which, after further millenia of study and theorizing,  we are still unable to understand may have to be relegated to the dubious category of &quot;magic...&quot;<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Yes, Cuban B...<br /><br />I crashed my van into Jesus!<br /><br />If you try to fail, and succeed, which have you done?</font><p></p>


created: 2003-12-02 18:47:24
subject: <b>It is Proven science.</b>
body:
Hemi-snyc is a proven sceince. They have had manny observational experiments on it and with it that prove it's volitity. <br /><br />It is not just another one of thoughs &quot;metiphysical crystal wareing ideas&quot;. (although I do think that some of those are valid too, they are just yet to be proven).<br /><br />The simple fact of it is that the government uses the technology too. Would they use something that doesn't work?<br />I don't think so.<br /><br />Look it up for yourself. I dare you.<br /><br />Mariah Sedai


created: 2003-12-02 19:03:43
subject: <b>I looked it up</b>
body:
The Hemi-sync website does not have any experiments on it that show that it works. They certainly haven't published anything in a peer-reviewed journal. There is just no evidence for it.<br /><br />And the US government is renowned for using things that don't work, the fact that they might use it (of which I haven't seen how they use it, or how much they use it), doesn't matter.<br /><br />A.


created: 2003-12-02 20:27:22
subject: <b>Adrian</b>
body:
Thank God there are people in the world like you. <br /><br />I mean it.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">pretender_edj<br /><br />Ajah: White<br />House: Ravenclaw<br />Character: <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rand.gif" border="0" /> - no matter what!<br />Pride: Hillbilly/Geek</font><p></p>


created: 2003-12-02 23:58:44
subject: <b>The real issue here is . . .</b>
body:
How did a theory with such poor grammer and spelling ever get posted in the first place. Don't worry about channeling, focus your energy on learning basic english.<br /><br />side note, I bet Ive misspelled something now.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;I can express more emotion than laughter, anger and let's . . .&quot;<br /><br />Shooganooga<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-12-03 01:21:46
subject: <b>Sound wave technology.</b>
body:
I don't mind if anyone does not agree with the theory. After all it is just a theory.<br /><br />But the technology is real. <br /><br />Example: If I got a group of people together and played a very specific low frequancy tone, everyone would empty thier bowels. Look it up. It is reality. The Hemi-sync is the same technology, just refined to other specifics.<br /><br />And lastly I know that just because this technology does exist dosen't mean that my theory is proven. It would take alot of time, energy and experimentation to prove wether or not it would be possable.<br /><br />I however am an individual that likes to keep my mind open. And I hope someday that these things do become possable. <br /><br />Mariah Sedai


created: 2003-12-03 07:24:17
subject: <b>I did check it up...</b>
body:
on Pub-Med, where you can find every electonically published article. The only thing I could come up with was one article from a fourth rate periodical which was published by payment of page charges. That's not a scientific paper, that's an advertisement. <br /><br />It's just fine with me if you want to believe in the existence of Hemi-Sync, or elves, or Santa Claus, but don't pretend it is real or scientifically proven, because that's complete nonsense. BTW, I'm still interested in your reaction on the fact that you used wrong quotes in your argument.


created: 2003-12-03 18:39:08
subject: <b>Okay.... Here we go.</b>
body:
Okay let me explan because clearly some of you don't understand what the technology really is.To some of you the Hemi-sync may sound like hocus pocus or a load of bull. And accually it is neither. It is quite simple accually. And there are many science books that explain it. I have been studyieing sound technologies scince I was 19 and I am now 25. I know alot about them. So I will explain.<br /><br />The Brown note is a tone freqauncy. Sound that is recived by your ears and then interpeted through you brain. Hemi-Sync is the same thing, sound recived by the ears and interpeted through your brain. Diferent sounds have diferent efects. Where the brown note makes you poop your pants... other freqancys have diferent efects. That in a nut shell is hemi-sync. It is diferent sounds (tones if you will) that have an efect on your brain through sound. <br /><br />I have used it. I know it works. If you want to learn more about it I suggest taking a class or two on sound waves, and frequancys. If you put certian tone frequancys together they can put you to sleep. These are all proven facts.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Feel free to ask me questions regarding this.<br /><br />Mariah Sedai


created: 2003-12-03 21:23:35
subject: <b>Brown note</b>
body:
For those interested the Brown note works on deaf people. It is just a sound-wave vibration at ultra-low frequencies of the bowl spasm response (you can get the same effect through mechanism vibration). Since it works on deaf people we know it doesn't work via the ears and then on to affect the brain. Nope, straight to the bowls, in a perfectly scientific manner.


created: 2003-12-04 00:33:45
subject: <b>Information</b>
body:
Hemi-sync works on deaf people too it is the same thing.<br /><br />LOOK IT UP. Take a class or two.


created: 2003-12-04 01:48:31
subject: <b>Hemi-sync acts straight on your bowel?</b>
body:
&gt;Hemi-sync works on deaf people too it is the same thing.<br />You mean Hemi-sync acts on your bowel? j/k<br /><br />You said &quot;Hemi-Sync is the same thing, sound recived by the ears and interpeted through your brain.&quot; Obviously this isn't right if it works on congentially deaf people, where the ear cannot recieve any sounds. Plus you were wrong about the Brown Note, since that doesn't go via the ears or brain at all, and is therefore on a complete tangent to this discussion. One of the things that makes me think this is pseudo-science is that they make these supporting claims that look good if you don't know anything about it, but when you look deeper (eg the Brown Note) it really has nothing to do with the theory in question.<br /><br />&gt;LOOK IT UP. Take a class or two.<br />If I wanted a class in pseduo-science I would go to the Scientiologists or something. I think I'll just stick to the regular &quot;experimentally proven - peer reviewed - published in respectable journals&quot; type of science for the moment, thanks.<br /><br />


created: 2003-12-04 03:43:03
subject: <b>I am still waiting</b>
body:
for a link to any decent article with any evidence. Why don't you concentrate on giving that? After all, it is good practice that the one who makes the claims gives the evidence. And I'm not talking about some Hemi-Sync fan site here, simply a paper in any peerreviewed journal.


created: 2003-12-13 17:00:43
subject: <b>A link</b>
body:
Here are two.<br />Enjoy.<br />And my apologies for any ill feelings.<br /><br />http://www.trans4mind.com/holosync/research.html<br /><br />http://peyote.com/jonstef/brain.htm


created: 2003-12-13 17:42:42
subject: <b>some more links</b>
body:
http://web-us.com/thescience.htm<br /><br />http://www.monroeinstitute.org/research/abstractBBeatsregarousallevelsIANS.html<br /><br />http://www.awakenedminds.com/research.shtml<br /><br />http://www.naturalhealthway.com/insight/brainwave6/brainwave6.html<br /><br />http://www.educationalcoach.co.uk/brainwave.htm<br /><br />http://www.terra.es/personal/kirke1/gerwu.htm<br /><br />http://www.technion.ac.il/technion/aliyah/olim/lapidus.html<br /><br />Enjoy. Sorry it toke so lonk to get back to ya.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Mariah Sedai


created: 2004-07-08 21:41:58
subject: <b>Real science fiction</b>
body:
Mariah Sedai, your theory is sound, and makes sense - but you missed one tiny little point: these books are ficiton.  That means the author made the whole entire story and all of its elements up in his head.  I would love it if the world of WoT were real, but I have accepted the fact that it is not, and never will be.  Also, next time you post a theory, please consult a dictionary; this one was a pain to read.<br /><br />Sorry if I sound like an asshole.  I'm really not that big a one.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Serenallein <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />As the eunuch said to the abbess, I'd oblige if I could, but I can't.</font><p></p>


created: 2004-08-25 23:56:59
subject: <b>HemiSync and related concepts</b>
body:
Adrian - HemiSync itself may not have been proven, but the technique behind it HAS been proven in peer-reviewed journals. The technique I am referring to is Binaural Beats. Binaural Beats have been shown to affect the brain in a predictable way, drawing the dominant frequency towards the frequency of the binaural beat.<br /><br />Also, please don't be so judgemental about the possibility of channelling, etc. Just because no one does it now doesn't mean that it isn't possible.<br /><br />Of course, you are right about the cloud thing (at least in the sense that people assume that it worked when the cloud dissipates, but it was natural)<br /><br />Everyone has to take a step back and think with an open, but still skeptical, mind.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Asmodean is alive and posing as Sammael!<br /><br />Sammael <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sammy.gif" border="0" /> is Sparticus.<br /><br />No, I'm Sparticus! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /> = <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />I'm Herid Fel Reborn!!!!! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shy.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-12-08 17:09:55
subject: <b>whats wrong with you people???</b>
body:
you mean none of you can really channel???<br />am i the only one???<br />cool!!!!!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> let the speedbart ride again upon the winds of time <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Made the second post on the new WoTMB2 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-12-10 19:49:30
subject: <b>I don't want to get to into this...</b>
body:
with some of you because some people just refuse to except the possiblity of certain things. I'm going to have to side with Mariah on this one. Not the whole Hemi stuff and crystals, etc. This is the first I've ever heard of it so I can't say whether I believe it or not. I am very open minded about things like that. So to go right out and say &quot;Its crap&quot; is just crap. I don't disbelieve in something just because I don't know anything about it. <br /><br />On a side note sort of on the same subject though. Concerning Tel&#8217;aran&#8217;rhiod. Whats everyones thoughts about Lucid dreaming? Being able to &quot;enter&quot; your own dream and consciously change it instead of the dream just running its course. No I don't have any links for you to go run off and find something to bash about lucid dreaming. I don't feel like looking up any at the moment. And I don't know if it was ever published in one of your precious &quot;peer-reviewed journals&quot;. Just because something doesn't get into a &quot;peer-reviewed journal&quot; doesn't mean its not real. But I am in no way saying any of what is being discussed is real or not real. Who knows what can happen in the future. Be it 5 years or thousands of years. Nobody can know for sure.


created: 2006-02-24 15:26:33
subject: <b>We use 100% of our brains.</b>
body:
This hasn't been responded to in a few years, but I felt that I needed to clear something up. We use 100% of our brains. The whole 10-15% thing is just some crap that someone came up with. Your brain uses I think it was around 1/3 of all the energy in your body. I'm sorry, but unless it is providing a direct survival benefit to you, gradually brains would shrink, where natural selection is viable. Something like that would simply be too inefficient, and would gradually be curtailed.


created: 2007-03-14 04:50:58
subject: <b>smallcatharine</b>
body:
Burn you smallcatharine! I was going to say that. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />I guess that's what reading all the comments before posting one to correct other people's and seem smarter gets you. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/frown.gif" border="0" />


created: 2003-11-27 14:25:05
subject: <b>llama</b>
body:
Though RJ loves references to mythology and religion, ya just can't beat cruel logic.  Should darkfriends seize Rand, the most appropriate thing to do is slit his throat, and sure, if we insist, send the hand to Elayne.  I mean, truely the power of the Dragon bound is an awesome concept, but there is cold risk at hand of escape and rescuers etc.  Any sensible darkfriend should realize that with Rand dead, the world is easy bake oven cake to take!  And even if the captor did not kill Rand and just bound him, many others would seize the opportunity to finish off the Dragon Reborn.  EG, I doubt it would be a sensible plot to carry out if Robert Jordan wound himself into such a scenario.  There's plenty of other hands that could be used to bribe Elayne anyways!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">~~Da'Tsang!<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/w00t.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" />&quot;Lasta Lalaithamin sii' kela!&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> Smocking...<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-11-27 14:43:37
subject: <b>probably means nothing, but....</b>
body:
&quot;She could have seen only the back of the hand.&quot;<br /><br />He has dragonheads on the back of his hand.<br />


created: 2003-11-27 15:31:48
subject: <b>Interesting</b>
body:
I don't think it will happen, but cool theory.<br /><br />Llama, it's pretty clear that darkfriends with contact from Forsaken are told not to kill him.  Take Galina and Katerine and Elza when Rand was captured in Lord of Chaos.  Katerine wondered why they couldn't kill him when they got him and Galina told her not to ask questions.  Suroth wants to capture him and use his power.  She thinks about this in The Shadow Rising.  And she is likely under the thumb of Semirhage, who I doubt would want him killed.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Wartherded by Phil Reborn<br /><br />CW</font><p></p>


created: 2003-11-27 18:17:37
subject: <b>As MatC said</b>
body:
Rand has dragon heads on his hands and since Min doesn't mention any strange markings (palm or back of hand) she'd have to have seen at least Heron or Dragon head if it is Rand's hand. It could have been possible before Rand went to the Aiel but no longer. <br /><br />Just a thought, haven't we come across a Seanchan rank with hand in it? Maybe a Seanchan will cut themselves off from the Empire and flee to Elayne, thus a severed Hand that is not Elayne's could be a turncoat from across the ocean...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> Member of the Crimson Corps <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Loyal to the Dragon Reborn <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Death rides on my shoulder, death walks in my footsteps; I am death...</font><p></p>


created: 2003-11-27 18:18:32
subject: <b>Chop</b>
body:
That certain nobleman screamed when this happened (duh), but it has been mentioned that the severing of a hand is so quick that the screaming occurs after the act.<br /><br />Given Elayne's strength and the need to kidnap her quickly it has been suggested an a'dam will be used on her and they will escape via gateway. <br /><br />Avi &amp; Co may give chase and may be confronted by the BA sister forcing Elayne to attack them. To cut a long story short, severing the hand of the suldam (BA sister) quickly would release the control of Elayne and the shocked delay of severing will spare her any pain. (Not for the BA though  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />   )<br /><br />I have no knowledge of the a'dam affects so this theory may be impossible?????????????<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />


created: 2003-11-27 18:29:37
subject: <b>When a pun is not a pun</b>
body:
Firstly - sorry for saying 'to cut a long story short'<br />and <br />Secondly - sorry for not realising that this was a very bad pun when posting it<br />Thanks   <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />


created: 2003-11-28 00:29:28
subject: <b>Uh Goaswerfraiejen....</b>
body:
That's Perrin...wasn't there a viewing about a hand with him too...? Besides I can't see how the Aiel's hand that Perrin hacked off ties to Elayne....<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> Member of the Crimson Corps <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Loyal to the Dragon Reborn <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Death rides on my shoulder, death walks in my footsteps; I am death...</font><p></p>


created: 2003-11-28 03:04:21
subject: <b>There's no real reason to project all this stuff</b>
body:
The alleged Seanchan practice of chopping off hands was refuted in the same chapter cited in the theory.  Egeanin said Renna was an extremist who liked to exaggerate, and that it wasn't done for a very long time.  Further, it was done to punish damane, without damaging their valuable ability.  In tGH a sul'dam says &quot;Damana can do what they must without [a tongue or hands to write with]...&quot; and it is when Egwene exhibits curiosity about why Suroth was meeting with an Aes Sedai - in other words Renna and Alhuin were saying there were ways to keep nosy damane from spilling secrets.  The Seanchan are very aware of the Dragon Reborn's significane, and Suroth is very afraid of the consequences of going beyond Imperial Orders.  If Semirhage is indeed Anath, there is still no reason for Suroth to take her orders without Semirhage exposing herself - Suroth was aghast at Anath's lese majeste towards Tuon, and kept expecting punishment to be ordered, even though Anath mostly spoke in support of Suroth's actions.<br /><br />Suroth is unlikely to mutilate Rand, and also not likely to send the hand to Elayne.  It makes very little sense especially since if Rand is captured by Suroth it is likely to happen well before Elayne establishes herself on the throne.  As for the Shadow knowing about Rand and Elayne's relationship, it is doubtful.  Demandred seemed to think she is his enemy from the T'A'R episode in Loc, whatever Taim let on in WH (he might have just been messing with Elayne's head, or have a dirty mind, not really believing that they were an item), and the people plotting against Elayne in Caemlyn, who are working directly under the Forsaken are ignorant of her children's paternity (if they had even a hint of Rand &amp; Elayne's relationship, they would have guessed he was the father, much as Egwene did).  Furthermore, given how all the Martin fans on this site continuously bitch that WoT isn't enough like SoI&amp;F, why should we assume that because something happened in SoI&amp;F, it could also happen in WoT?  Secondly, WoT is several time periods removed from the Dark Ages, in an entirely different situation.  Jordan himself has compared WoT to the late Renaissance, minus gunpowder, while the Dark Ages were the early middle ages, with some historians naming them as follows: Dark, Middle, High Middle, Renaissance.  No one puts the Dark Ages and Renaissance together, and the term Renaissance is used to separate that time period specifically from the Dark Ages.  Furthermore, the Dark Ages were the result of the complete collapse of one culture (Roman Empire) followed by massive migrations of people and reordering of political structures.  In WoT, the current lands and nations settled into being 1,000 years ago, with basic civilized social mores taking hold centuries ago.  The taking of ears from corpses is seen as horrible, while in the Dark Ages, the best of men might have only found it distasteful.  The Seven Kingdoms of Westeros in Martin's books are a lot closer to the Dark Ages, with a system much closer to fuedalism, while nationalism never really seems to have gone away in WoT, one of the characteristics of a fuedal system being a closer alligiance to a local landowner or warlord than to a nation or organization or culture.  It is highly unlikely that severed hands would be sent around to make a point in international politics when in WoT, they are so much more national than personal.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


created: 2003-11-28 03:37:54
subject: <b>My replies</b>
body:
To da*tsang,<br /><br />The reason why it is probably Rand's hand is that RJ said Rand was made after the God Tyr. <br />That means Rand must lose a hand because at the moment he is not very Tyr-like; the lack of a hand is the prominent sign of Tyr.<br /><br />If it's very intelligent if DF try to use a captured Rand rather than to kill him at once is another question.<br />But as Deadsy said, since some DF think that Rand <i> must </i> be at TG it seems quite reasonable.<br /><br /><br />To MatC &amp; Fallen Ashaman,<br /><br />I admit I forgot about the Dragonheads on the back of the hands. <br /><br />Nevertheless I think it means nothing. Elayne tells about this viewing. We don't know what exactly what Min saw when she had the viewing and how Min explained it to Elayne.<br />Maybe she saw the hand from a perspective in which you could not see the marks. Or the hand was dirty or bloody or blurred. Or she saw the Dragon heads or the herons but either she or Elayne forgot about it because it made no sense to them.<br /><br />There are many reasons to explain it and since probably the mayority of people agreed that the severed hand must be (or at least could be) Rand's hand, it's for these reasons obviously not a problem for most people.<br /><br /><br />To Talmanes,<br /><br />I just don't see any one of the girls chopping of a hand. Or why the severed hand would be such important for Elayne if your theory was right.<br /> <br /><br />To Goaswerfraiejen,<br /><br />As  Fallen Ashaman  said, there is no reason to believe that a ahnd chopped of from some Shaido is such important for <i> Elayne </i>.<br /><br />But it's another reason that the severed hand means that Rand will lose a hand.<br />We already saw one chopping of a hand. <br />We can safely assume that Rand will also lose a hand. <br />I doubt that RJ would let yet a third person lose a hand; this idea is maybe a bit too used-up until then. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />


created: 2003-11-28 04:09:00
subject: <b>Oh, and to Cannoli...</b>
body:
<b> The alleged Seanchan practice of chopping off hands was refuted in the same chapter cited in the theory. Egeanin said Renna was an extremist who liked to exaggerate, and that it wasn't done for a very long time. Further, it was done to punish damane, without damaging their valuable ability. In tGH a sul'dam says &quot;Damana can do what they must without [a tongue or hands to write with]...&quot; and it is when Egwene exhibits curiosity about why Suroth was meeting with an Aes Sedai - in other words Renna and Alhuin were saying there were ways to keep nosy damane from spilling secrets. </b><br /><br />I'm a bit confused. First you say it was refuted that the Seanchan chopped hands, then you argue that it was only <i> done </i> to punish damane because hands are not such important.<br /><br />Anyway I believe Renna did not exaggerate when she told it to Mat. For what reason?<br /><br />That is was not done for a long time means nothing because something changed: among the Seanchan is now a Forsaken and they are lead by a high DF.<br /><br />Besides, we also hear e.g. in TGH, ch.34, that &quot;the hand that touches the property of the High Lord [Turak] unbidden is cut off&quot;. <br />That shows again that the cutting off is a common punishment.<br /><br /><b> The Seanchan are very aware of the Dragon Reborn's significane, and Suroth is very afraid of the consequences of going beyond Imperial Orders. If Semirhage is indeed Anath, there is still no reason for Suroth to take her orders without Semirhage exposing herself - Suroth was aghast at Anath's lese majeste towards Tuon, and kept expecting punishment to be ordered, even though Anath mostly spoke in support of Suroth's actions. </b><br /><br />I think we can assume that Semirhage took control of Suroth, at least after Tuon vanished. <br /><br /><b> Suroth is unlikely to mutilate Rand, and also not likely to send the hand to Elayne. It makes very little sense especially since if Rand is captured by Suroth it is likely to happen well before Elayne establishes herself on the throne. </b> <br /><br />It makes a lot of sense. If Elayne is away the other noble Houses can conquer Caemlyn. And we know that Lady Shiaine is plotting with them.<br /><br /><b> As for the Shadow knowing about Rand and Elayne's relationship, it is doubtful. Demandred seemed to think she is his enemy from the T'A'R episode in Loc, whatever Taim let on in WH (he might have just been messing with Elayne's head, or have a dirty mind, not really believing that they were an item), and the people plotting against Elayne in Caemlyn, who are working directly under the Forsaken are ignorant of her children's paternity (if they had even a hint of Rand &amp; Elayne's relationship, they would have guessed he was the father, much as Egwene did). </b><br /><br />It's quite likely that the Shadow knows or can at least figure the relationship between Rand and Elayne. <br />Moridin just knows almost everything. <br /><br />Also nothing says that the Shadow doesn't think that Rand is the father of Elayne's children, especially after Hanlon assured Shiaine that he isn't the father. <br /><br /><b> Furthermore, given how all the Martin fans on this site continuously bitch that WoT isn't enough like SoI&amp;F, why should we assume that because something happened in SoI&amp;F, it could also happen in WoT? </b><br /><br />The argument is not that it happened in SoIaF and thus must happen in WoT.<br />But it could happen in WoT as well.<br /><br />You must consider that if I am right, this severed hand is something RJ planned from the beginning.<br />Thus he did not know that also Martin uses this idea. <br />I just wanted to show that cutting off a hand and sending it someone for a ransom is a common thought.<br /><br /><b> Secondly, WoT is several time periods removed from the Dark Ages, in an entirely different situation. Jordan himself has compared WoT to the late Renaissance, minus gunpowder, while the Dark Ages were the early middle ages, with some historians naming them as follows: Dark, Middle, High Middle, Renaissance. No one puts the Dark Ages and Renaissance together, and the term Renaissance is used to separate that time period specifically from the Dark Ages. Furthermore, the Dark Ages were the result of the complete collapse of one culture (Roman Empire) followed by massive migrations of people and reordering of political structures. In WoT, the current lands and nations settled into being 1,000 years ago, with basic civilized social mores taking hold centuries ago. The taking of ears from corpses is seen as horrible, while in the Dark Ages, the best of men might have only found it distasteful. The Seven Kingdoms of Westeros in Martin's books are a lot closer to the Dark Ages, with a system much closer to fuedalism, while nationalism never really seems to have gone away in WoT, one of the characteristics of a fuedal system being a closer alligiance to a local landowner or warlord than to a nation or organization or culture. It is highly unlikely that severed hands would be sent around to make a point in international politics when in WoT, they are so much more national than personal. </b><br /><br />I have nothing to quote but I beg that cutting off the hand of your captive and sending it e.g. to the parents of the vicitim to get a ransom is something that in fact happened not only in the Dark Ages (though maby emore often then) but through all centuries and also today. <br /><br />My final questions. <br />Why do you think that Rand won't lose a hand? <br />Or if you think he will, how then if not the Seanchan cut it off while he is captured by the male a'dam?<br />What do you thinks means the severed hand then, why is it important for Elayne?


created: 2003-11-28 14:46:58
subject: <b>Couple things</b>
body:
If RJ writes this right, Moridin knows.  Elayne stupidly talked about her infatuation of Rand around Moghedien.. so if Moridin asked her for everything she knows then he'll at least know that Elayne loves him.<br /><br /><br />Mat &amp; Egeanin talked about the hands thing in COT<br /><br />&#8220;Some sul&#8217;dam talk about that nonsense to frighten recalcitrant damane when they&#8217;re newleashed, but nobody&#8217;s done it in, oh, six or seven hundred years. <b>Not many, anyway</b>, and people who can&#8217;t control their property without . . . mutilation . . . are sei&#8217;mosiev to start.&#8221;<br /><br />So it still is done.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Wartherded by Phil Reborn<br /><br />CW</font><p></p>


created: 2003-11-29 09:18:25
subject: <b>So it's done as PUNISHMENT</b>
body:
Not to cripple a person they're going to use to fight the Last Battle for the glory of the Emperess.  The severed hand is too extreme for the Seanchan, and too tame for Semirhage.  It's the sort of thing the Shaido MIGHT do.  Even though the Fisher in Moridin's game has a blindfold and a wound in his side, and Moridin comments that it may be a memory of Rand, it has both hands.  Also, regarding the hand-chopping thing, Egeanin says Suroth would never do it to the Emperess's &quot;property.&quot;<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


created: 2003-11-29 10:55:52
subject: <b>Cannoli</b>
body:
If you chop off the hand of a person simply to punish him, you would more than ever do it, if you even gain another big advantage through this act.<br /><br />But on principle, you must realize that the Seanchan in Randland are now lead by Suroth. <br />Suroth is a Darkfriend (and note that Egeanin doesn't know that...), probably got her orders in the past from Ishy and maybe is still in contact with him.<br /><br />Furthermore it's generally accepted (the proofs are just too good) that also Semirhage stays with the Seanchan. <br />If that is right, she certainly took control of Suroth like Mesaana did with Alviarin. Everything else would make no sense.<br /><br />That means the Seanchan are actually lead by the Shadow. It's quite naive to think then that Semirhage (who is even feared by some Forsaken) would care much if the Empress would consider Rand as her property. <br />Do you really believe the Shadow will hand Rand over to the Empress?<br /><br />If (hopefully) not, then your objection that the Seanchan would never do Rand any harm like cutting off a hand is  irrelevant.  <br />The Shadow (by the use of it's servants) certainly would if it's profitable.<br /><br />I also don't see why it would be too tame for Semirhage. <br />On the contrary, I imagine the loss of a hand as quite cruel (probably that is the reason why it is a punishment).<br />Besides, if Semirhage wants she can still torture Rand after chopping off a hand.<br /><br /><br />Second, that the Fisher piece has two hands doesn't mean that Rand won't lose a hand (especially considering what RJ said about Rand and Tyr).<br /><br />I think we can safely assume that the Fisher is rather a symbol of the eternal champion of the Light and thus isn't an accurate copy of Rand's body. <br />That would be too odd. How could the maker of the Fisher could know Rand's look?<br /><br />It also doesn't mean that Rand will become blind in my opinion; the blindness is rather metaphorical.<br />


created: 2003-11-29 14:53:37
subject: <b>An interesting theory Etzel</b>
body:
I agree that Rand isgoing to lose a hand and that his loss will affect Elayne. How could it not, when she is bonded to him.<br /><br />I just want to add a quote that might put a different perspective on it though: In LOC, The Mirror of Mists, Rand says &quot;Trust me, Min. I won't hurt you. I will cut off my arm before I hurt you.&quot; Min was silent, and Rand finally looked down to find her peering up at him with a strange expression. She says &quot;That's very nice ot hear, sheepherder.&quot; Her voice was as odd as her face.<br /><br />It appears that a viewing of Min's is involved here. I also think this is foreshadowing. Does Rand take Min with him (or she insist on goin) when he visits the Seanchan?<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> Linda Sedai <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Proud member of the Embroiderer's Guild of the White Tower<br /><br /><b><font color="red">FAQ admin</font></b> </font>'cos the FAQ is where it's at.<br /><br /><b>Currently working on:</b> my 70th FAQ<p><a href="http://13depository.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">The thirteenth depository : A Wheel of Time blog</a></p><p></p>


created: 2003-11-29 15:45:54
subject: <b>A thought</b>
body:
I don't think it can be proved that it isn't Rand's hand in Min's viewing.  All Min said was that it was a severed hand and not Elayne's.  We got this from Elayne's POV.  Min doesn't have to tell Elayne if she knows it has a heron or a dragon on it.  It probably wouldn't do Elayne any good to know anyway.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Wartherded by Phil Reborn<br /><br />CW</font><p></p>


created: 2003-11-29 16:41:44
subject: <b>Didn't Egeanin</b>
body:
say Suroth wouldn't dare mutilate the damane, as they were imperial property, not hers? <br />I'm pretty sure the same would go for Rand, as he is far more important than any one damane, and would also be property of the empress.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Beka Sedai<br /><br />fell for you like a suicide from a bridge</font><p></p>


created: 2003-11-30 00:17:30
subject: <b>Yes</b>
body:
She did, but then she doesn't know Egeanin is a darkfriend.  If Suroth captures Rand and doesn't take him to the Empress then everyone will know she isn't loyal and she can do whatever the heck she wants.  She contemplates not giving him to the empress in tSR<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Wartherded by Phil Reborn<br /><br />CW</font><p></p>


created: 2003-11-30 00:25:15
subject: <b>my piece</b>
body:
first off, very good theory, tumbs up <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> . <br /><br />Also there was some discussion as to whether the shadow know about Rands connection with elayne. They may not know exactly but they know who his friends are <br /><br />&quot;Few linked to al'Thor remain unknown for long.&quot; aCoS, Insects, (pg 365). That was mili skane. of course she was referring to mat in this particular instance, but the point is that the shadow must know there is something going on between rand and elayne, though they may not know she carries his children, but they have not kept their relationship that secret, think Tear.<br /><br />It does makes sense that they would use rand to bait elayne out of caemlyn and then try to take over the throne, very nice.<br /><br />I guess the only thing is, this assumes that moridin and semirhage are working together right? And semirhage is one of the few forsaken left on the loose, demandred is the only other one i can think of. Of course, semmy could have been brought to heel off screen in manner to similar to the way mesaana was, or there could be something that happened that i forgot... but do we know yet if semmirhage and moridin are working together??<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Whelp, I'm rich! So long losers who I've always hated.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-11-30 11:04:46
subject: <b>To dudewheresmycar</b>
body:
I believe we can safely assume that Moridin has his hands in the Seanchan plot, and that Semirhage is now under the Nae'blis' control like all other Forsaken.<br />Semirhage also already knows SH and fears him.<br /><br />The Seanchan are too important for the Shadow, so Moridin surely wants to be aware of what happens there and have some control. <br />Ishy was the person who originally initiated the whole Seanchan setting.<br />He apparently also gave Suroth orders in the past.<br /><br />At the Forsaken Coffee Hour Moridin is only angry about Mesaana's absence but doesn't mention Semirhage's (who also wasn't at the Cleansing). <br />This implicates that he allowed the second because he knows that Semirhage has important things to do among the Seanchan (while Mesaana is punished).<br /><br />Finally we even saw Moridin in Ebou Dar, the Seanchan stronghold. <br /><br />All these clues strongly indicate that Moridin, Semirhage &amp; Suroth are plotting together.<br />


created: 2003-11-30 17:25:28
subject: <b>Yes...but</b>
body:
I understand that Rand will lose a hand, but if he is used to bait Elayne out of Camelyn HOW WILL SHE GET THERE???? She is loosing he grip on channling because she is pregnant. She throws a fit when she cant channel to meet Edgwene in the Dream World, it CoT. With Elayne loosing her touch she would have a hard time getting to Rand to &quot;save&quot; him. AND, do you think that IF she could get to Rand she would risk herself in her weakened condition? Risk her and Rand's children?<br />I think you are right about the severed hand being Rand's but it will be ineffective in luring Elayne out of Camelyn. She will awant to go to him but she will be unable to because of her condition. <br /><br /><br />Just a side-note: When is Rand going to find out that he is a father and how will he react? I think it would be interesting to find out.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> Snarl of the Wolf King <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> Snarl of the Wolf King <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />As the darkness deepens<br />Young Bull waits,<br />the fires of his anger<br />burning bright in the night<br />His eyes glowing golden<br />Ax shimmering with the cold moonlight;<br />Young Bull crouches<br />awaiting the Dawn<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-12-01 00:18:03
subject: <b>So many points, so little time</b>
body:
To Deadsy:<br /><br />&quot;If RJ writes this right, Moridin knows. Elayne stupidly talked about her infatuation of Rand around Moghedien.. so if Moridin asked her for everything she knows then he'll at least know that Elayne loves him.&quot;<br /><br />THIS IS SO TRUE!  The key thing here is: &quot;IF Rj writes this right&quot;  By the same logic, Rand would already know that Suroth is a DF.<br /><br />I really do not think the shadow knows who's it is.  Ya, sure Elayne said that she was in love with him, but lots of women claim to be in love with Brad Pitt.  When they get pregnant, we don't assume the baby belongs to him.  Evidence here is the Lady DF's quote where she asks Hanlon if the baby is his.  She gets her orders from Ishy (second hand at times through Moggy).  She would know at least that Hanlon was not the father.<br /><br />I think Snarl of the Wolf King brought up the most important information.  How will this change Elayne's position?  She would never risk her own child to run into the trap (yes, she would recognize the trap) where she can do nothing with the one power in her condition.  You can say she would send others, but then Elayne is still there.  Her real importance is as a figurehead.  Furthermore, if Suroth wanted the city, she would use Rand's power to take it.  <br /><br />I also think that Linda Sedai brought up where the real focus should be.  The quote to Min about cutting off his own hand before hurting her was where I thought Rand would lose his hand.  How this is important (ya, the father of your child losing his hand is important, but is it viewing worthy??) to Elayne, I have not figured out.<br /><br />Personally, I think it relates to Halon's hand being cut off.  Why?  I don't know.  Just a wild hunch.  Maybe it will lure Hurin into the city!!!!J/K!!!!<br />


created: 2003-12-01 03:19:57
subject: <b>Two replies</b>
body:
To Snarl of the Wolf King, <br /><br /><b> I understand that Rand will lose a hand, but if he is used to bait Elayne out of Camelyn HOW WILL SHE GET THERE???? She is loosing he grip on channling because she is pregnant. She throws a fit when she cant channel to meet Edgwene in the Dream World, it CoT. With Elayne loosing her touch she would have a hard time getting to Rand to &quot;save&quot; him. AND, do you think that IF she could get to Rand she would risk herself in her weakened condition? Risk her and Rand's children? I think you are right about the severed hand being Rand's but it will be ineffective in luring Elayne out of Camelyn. She will awant to go to him but she will be unable to because of her condition. </b><br /><br />I never said (and don't believe) that Elayne would leave Caemlyn to go to Rand and save him (I rather believe Perrin will save Rand again).<br /><br />I said that the Shadow will threat Elayne to make something, e.g. to give up Caemlyn by opening the gates and letting the Rebels come in.<br /><br />If Elayne will do that is another question. <br />In any case the decision between Rand and Andor will throw her into an emotional conflict which explains why the severed hand is such important for her.  <br /><br /><br />To Crazy Ashaman,<br /><br /><b> THIS IS SO TRUE! The key thing here is: &quot;IF Rj writes this right&quot; By the same logic, Rand would already know that Suroth is a DF.<br /><br />I really do not think the shadow knows who's it is. Ya, sure Elayne said that she was in love with him, but lots of women claim to be in love with Brad Pitt. When they get pregnant, we don't assume the baby belongs to him. Evidence here is the Lady DF's quote where she asks Hanlon if the baby is his. She gets her orders from Ishy (second hand at times through Moggy). She would know at least that Hanlon was not the father. </b><br /><br />I think we can assume that the Shadow knows.<br />Besides what Deadsy already pointed out there are some other points which indicate that.<br /><br />At least the Shadow surely know that Rand and Elayne know each other and are good friends. <br />Elayne and Rand were together in the Stone of Tear.<br />And after all Elayne is also a good friend of Aviendha,  Nynaeve, Egwene and Mat who all are friends of Rand, too. <br /><br />We should also keep in mind that Rand explicitly said that he got Andor for Elayne, that she shall become the Queen.<br />We also have a big part of Rand's armies in the area near Caemlyn and Elayne has contact to them. <br />Rand even wants that Elayne becomes the Queen of Cairhien.<br /><br />Furthermore, Elayne is in Rand's age and very beautiful.<br />We know that LTT was in love with a similiar type of woman, Ilyena Sunhair (note that the hair colours and even the names are similar). <br />Since the Forsaken assume that much of LTT's personality is in Rand, they could figure that he would be attrackted by her.<br /><br />The Shadow also knows that Rand is in love with Min and should know (e.g. from Lanfear) that he is in love with Aviendha.<br />We saw different prophecies about Rand wich included three women. That means they are quite important for Rand. <br />It's possible that there is also something in the Prophecies of the Dragon about the three women.<br />It should be certain that Moridin knows these Prophecies inside out.<br /><br />Now Elayne is suddenly pregnant. Hanlon said he is not the father. Who else could be the father? <br /><br />Moridin himself says that he has spies everywhere and indeed the Shadow often knows very secret things. <br />We know that Demandred spied on Elayne, too.<br /><br />All these clues show that if the Shadow is not absolutely stupid, it should be at least clear that Elayne would care if someone threatens her with Rand's death.  <br /><br /><b> I think Snarl of the Wolf King brought up the most important information. How will this change Elayne's position? She would never risk her own child to run into the trap (yes, she would recognize the trap) where she can do nothing with the one power in her condition. You can say she would send others, but then Elayne is still there. Her real importance is as a figurehead. Furthermore, if Suroth wanted the city, she would use Rand's power to take it. </b><br /><br />Look above at my reply to Snarl. <br /><br /><b> I also think that Linda Sedai brought up where the real focus should be. The quote to Min about cutting off his own hand before hurting her was where I thought Rand would lose his hand. How this is important (ya, the father of your child losing his hand is important, but is it viewing worthy??) to Elayne, I have not figured out. </b><br /><br />I believe Min's odd look after Rand said that supports the idea that Rand will lose a hand and that Min already saw it, probably in the severed hand viewing.<br /><br />Why this is important for Elayne is actually the topic of my theory.<br /><br /><b> Personally, I think it relates to Halon's hand being cut off. Why? I don't know. Just a wild hunch. Maybe it will lure Hurin into the city!!!!J/K!!!! </b><br /><br />Well, I believe my theory is more likely. <br />I can't see that Hanlon's hand being cut off would be very important for Elayne.<br />


created: 2003-12-01 09:59:35
subject: <b>To Etzel</b>
body:
Your points certainly are valid.   I agree with you that the shadow COULD assume the baby belongs to Rand.  Yes, she is friends with Rand's friends, they were together in the stone, etc.  But historically, if all the things that COULD happen, DID happen via communication between characters, we would have a much different story!<br /><br />But as far as the shadow is aware, Rand is with Min now.  The stone was just a young boy who became powerful and was enjoying the finer points of power with a woman, as you point out, is thought to be beautiful.  Heck, they know that he in essance dumped her when he went to the waste.  As far as the shadow (most likely) knows, he has not seen Elayne since the stone.  Of course, EVERYTHING changes if Dylan turns out to be a DF, but thats a different issue.<br /><br />The Shadow ransonming the city is certainly more do-able, but it does not seem like an act that goes along wtih the book's style.  The shadow tends to work more behind the scenes rather than openly like that.  Besides, if you were in Elayne's shoes, would you believe that the shadow would release the Dragon Reborn even if you give up your city??


created: 2003-12-01 10:46:55
subject: <b>Back to Crazy Ashaman</b>
body:
<b> Your points certainly are valid. I agree with you that the shadow COULD assume the baby belongs to Rand. Yes, she is friends with Rand's friends, they were together in the stone, etc. But historically, if all the things that COULD happen, DID happen via communication between characters, we would have a much different story!<br /><br />But as far as the shadow is aware, Rand is with Min now. The stone was just a young boy who became powerful and was enjoying the finer points of power with a woman, as you point out, is thought to be beautiful. Heck, they know that he in essance dumped her when he went to the waste. As far as the shadow (most likely) knows, he has not seen Elayne since the stone. Of course, EVERYTHING changes if Dylan turns out to be a DF, but thats a different issue. </b><br /><br />Considering all the hints it's very likely that the Shadow knows or figures that Rand means a lot to Elayne. <br /><br />Aside from that, the communication problems are rather found at the Lightside not among the Shadow, especially since most strings run together in Moridin now.<br /><br /><b> The Shadow ransonming the city is certainly more do-able, but it does not seem like an act that goes along wtih the book's style. The shadow tends to work more behind the scenes rather than openly like that. Besides, if you were in Elayne's shoes, would you believe that the shadow would release the Dragon Reborn even if you give up your city?? </b><br /><br />The Shadow wouldn't act openly and Elayne wouldn't know that the Shadow has Rand because she would believe that the Seanchan captured Rand.<br />Elayne could imagine that the Seanchan don't care much about the Randland Dragon Reborn but are much more interested in conquests of countries and thus would release Rand.<br /><br />Besides, <i> love </i> often suppresses any rational thinking. <br />Although of course Rand's health and freedom should be a priority for any normal Randlander since he is the only one who can save the world!


created: 2003-12-02 14:05:56
subject: <b>Who else?</b>
body:
Could the severed hand also be of Gawyn or inflicted by Gawyn? After all he does intend to kill Rand. Rand could obviously take him down easily, using the OP but would his pride make him fight with a sword and lose a hand in the process, or cut off Gawyns?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Insert signature here</font><p></p>


created: 2003-12-03 16:56:20
subject: <b>Wow</b>
body:
I'm known for long posts, but I am shamed by the presence of the masters<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


created: 2003-12-05 10:48:01
subject: <b>Good theory</b>
body:
Just don`t know if the hand will be sent for Elayne to ransom  Rand.<br /><br />linda_sedai pretty much sold me that Min knows Rand will lose a hand.<br /><br />Deadsy: just a small correction. You said she didn`t know Egeanin was a DF, but meant to say Suroth.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2003-12-09 13:42:19
subject: <b>nice one</b>
body:
an excellently formed theory, although i don't recall any reference to norse gods anywhere in the series (did i miss something?) this would explain a lot of events in the series that haven't seemed very important up until now. i.e. why would jordan go to the trouble of introducing the male a'dam if he was just going to have it thrown into the sea?) <br />anyway, great theory. i won't be surprised if it turns out to be right on<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">That's right! An Aielman with a sword!<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bela.gif" border="0" /> + <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /> = <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br />I fear Perrin has fallen to the dark side <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-red.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-12-16 01:16:43
subject: <b>Does the Band of the Red Hand mean anything???</b>
body:
Couldn't it just be possible that this is a reference to Mat's Band of the Red Hand that has been &quot;cut-off&quot; from him due to the Seanchan encroachment?  <br /><br />Perhaps they make their way to Caemlyn in time to join with her army and assist with securing the throne.  No one would necessarily associate them with Rand's support as they would the Aiel or Lord Bashere's men.<br /><br />Min's viewings say:<br /><br />About Rand: &quot;A sword that isn't a sword, a golden crown of laurel leaves, a beggar's staff, you pouring water on sand, a bloody hand and a white-hot iron, ........&quot; <br />The Eye of the World (215-216) <br /><br />Not Severed, just bloody.<br /><br />But to Elayne: &quot;a severed hand (not hers).&quot; <br />The Great Hunt (362) <br /><br />?????


created: 2003-12-02 13:06:21
subject: <b>Because the 'Admin's Comments' aren't working:</b>
body:
OK, this theory is strange. Very strange. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> I really don't know what to make of it, but I thought I'd throw it out for a little discussion. I doubt that Robert Jordan knows any of the information provided here, even though he admits that his sources are from reading everything he can get his hands on, but the ideas in the theory got me interested.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="blue"><img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /> <b>PROUDLY CELEBRATING 10 YEARS OF WOTMANIA!</b></font> <img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /><br /><br /><font color="purple"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <b>FAQ and WoT Admin</b></font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><font color="gray"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> <b>Part-time Philosopher of the Wheel</b> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /></font></font><p><a href="/wotmessageboard2showmessage.asp?MessageID=107993" target="_blank">New WoT quizzes!</a></p><p></p>


created: 2003-12-02 13:50:41
subject: <b>Interesting</b>
body:
I once read a short story where a similar surgery was performed on a person, then the personality of one side of his brain was carefully sedated while the other was brainwashed into being an assasin.  And all of this was necessary to get past the telepathic guards.  It all turned out all right, and in the end there was a charming scene where they talked to each other (the sedated one through speech, the assasin by writing).<br /><br />Going past that, this does sound very interesting.  Do I think this is Rand/Lews Therin's situation?  Not really, especially not, like you said, in light of the &quot;Third Destroyer.&quot;  However, it was very well put together.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Yes, Cuban B...<br /><br />I crashed my van into Jesus!<br /><br />If you try to fail, and succeed, which have you done?</font><p></p>


created: 2003-12-02 16:26:20
subject: <b>A bit of support...</b>
body:
I have to say that I absolutely love this theory...<br /><br />Your conjecture that the Taint may erode the communication channel between the two halves of the brain reminded me of Nynaeve's POV when she Healed Logain. She describes bridging some sort of gap in something almost continuous. Could this be the same connection as you suggest may be corroded by the Taint? This might also explain the frequent deaths of severed channelers. If we ever get a POV from a previously or currently stilled channeler, and find out that they hear voices, it could go a long way towards proving this.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Who can deny a Fremen the right to walk or ride where he wills?<br />      -Dune<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-12-02 19:55:18
subject: <b>good job</b>
body:
but i think its more simple than you've made it, all theoretical and not terribly scientific. we may all have our ego focused on one side of our brain and our fully realized selves on the other. or, we may be schizophrenic or have mpd, in which case someone else occupies the void in oursleves where our past and future self resides. got you that far. but although this is a really cool and well researched theory, it might be more complicated than that in rand's case. the problem is that lews therin screwed up his destiny as the dragon, or rather, did not follow the meld that he probably thought he would (from the dragon before him). anyway, for some reason ltt did not fully accept himself as the dragon (mental instability, stress, inner conflict, all the killing leads to despair, etc. can cause a mental reassessment and potential denial of one's self) and now does not accept rand as himself. rand seems okay with himself as the dragon, just not as the dragon REBORN, ltt REBORN. now that he and ltt have started to meld more i see as a very positive step towards reconciliation. for example, the drawing skill is probably something incarnate in the dragon's soul, not just, or at least not specifically ltt's soul, whereas ltt's memories are seomthing specifically of rand's former self. rand's becoming one with the soul of the dragon and with ltt. is the supreme overlord soul of the dragon, whatever you want to call it, in my opinion, the third man in rand's brain? yes. that is the man he has potential to be if all three of them meld (the most important thing is that he and ltt reconcile).<br /><br />yeah.... wow that was confusing.<br /><br />anyway...good job.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">hot damn.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-12-02 22:43:22
subject: <b>interesting theory</b>
body:
well...i want to throw something else out there.<br /><br />you say that LTT was the righty...but that can be proved wrong if Rand was thumbing his ear with his right hand, because the right brain controls the left hand.<br /><br />i havent found that, and i dont have time to look for it, but oh well


created: 2003-12-02 23:37:10
subject: <b>Nice...</b>
body:
But I do have a few problems with it... for one i dont recall ever reading about any Split Brain Patients that heard voices (we read the chapter on the brain a few weeks ago in my AP Psych class). I also dont see how the taint could errode the Corpus Callosum (i belive thats how it spelled?) For me the taint always just seemed something that would just work on the nerves of the person while almost poisoning the mind, but not really erroding anything physically.<br /><br />All in all i think that its a possibility, but unlikely. I Like it <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Anick alSev<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /><br /><i>&quot;Till shade is gone, till water is gone,<br />into the Shadow with teeth bared,<br />screaming defiance with the last breath,<br />to spit in Sightblinder's eye on the last Day!&quot;</i><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-green.gif" border="0" /> Jedi Guardian <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-green.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-12-02 23:49:34
subject: <b>Phun with Philosophy + WoT</b>
body:
First off, mad propz to Gaeran. I was completely taken with the prospect of a full philosophical discussion about the idea of split minds in WoT.<br />Have any of you read Charles Marks? He was a philosopher that wrote a bit about the stuff Gaeran was talking about. He used the same experiments, which were conducted by Roger Sperry, if I remember right. Marks pointed out that A)this sort of behavior shows that a person has seperate conciousnesses. B)This seperate consciousnesses are always active, for it works because of the lack of connections between the hemispheres of the brain. C)People with split brains have two minds, therefore are two distinct personalities. <br /><br />This is what Gaeran was talking about, however the idea has been taken a little further by Marks to conclude:<br />D)If split brain people have two minds/personalties, so do normal humans. Think about it. The only way split brain people differ from us is that their brains didn't share data. That means that inside of us there are two distinct people recieving two sets of information. Only these two minds can communicate between each other to give the impression that we have one mind. <br /><br />On a different note, I have to disagree with the theory for one big reason. These seperate &quot;minds&quot; within our brain have never been shown to be individually conscious or independent, like LTT, Rand, and The Destroyer are of each other in Al'Thor's head. I still am going with the psychological split personalities theory.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> u (4n'7 54y |7 |n 1337, |7 |5n'7 w0r7h 54y|n6!<br />(Don't expect me to translate this, o you who are unenlightened)</font><p></p>


created: 2003-12-03 05:49:50
subject: <b>Nice theory</b>
body:
Nothing to add, just to say I like the originality of this theory.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Founding member of the ASI</b><br /><br /><b>TP ADMIN</b><br /><br /><b>Simon</b><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-12-03 07:12:28
subject: <b>That was interesting!</b>
body:
No it wasn't!<br /><br />*concentrates*<br />We have decided we like it. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2003-12-03 11:08:20
subject:
<b>Not sure if I understand correctly what you tell <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perplexed.gif" border="0" /></b>

body:
Do you say that Rand is schizophrenic?<br />If yes, I disagree.<br /><br />We know that there really was a LTT whose soul was reborn in Rand.  <br />Also LTT's personality survived, connected to this soul.<br />Rand even got informations and skills from LTT, he couldn't make up on his own.


created: 2003-12-03 13:14:16
subject: <b>some points...</b>
body:
I may be wrong with some of this--I have only a basic understanding of the physiography of the brain, but I believe that Broca's area (the area currently thought responsable for speech) is a little more than half in the left hemi, but there is also a portion in the right hemi, as well.  Also, when a bilateral medial temporal lobe lesion is performed (the procedure I believe you are describing) there is severe anterograde memory malfunction.  This means that Rand would not be able to form new memories.  This is not meant to debunk your idea, but, IMHO, I believe that if these are considered it makes things a slight bit more complicated =)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" />     Asha'Twan     <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br />To use no way as way, to have no limitations as limitiation.<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Lee Jun Fan<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-12-03 16:48:36
subject: <b>Regarding gentling...</b>
body:
THe Red Ajah don't do the gentling, except for the law-breakers who got Thom's nephew and the others hinted at in aCoS.  THe Amyrlin Seat leads the circle that gentles a man, and only three of those have been Reds in the last 2,000 years, and one of them has not gentled anyone.<br /><br />Regarding what the theory says, gentling doesn't heal anything, like the brain connections, it merely prevents further damage from the Taint by cutting off access to the (formerly) tainted Power.  Women feel the same sense of loss, and there is nothing wrong with their brain connections (except for the usual damage caused by estrogen).<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


created: 2003-12-03 18:13:58
subject: <b>Responses...</b>
body:
Soulblinder: What's the name of that book? I'd like to see that.<br /><br />InsaneJawa: The emptiness that Nynaeve sensed what the disconnection between Logain and the True Source. Severed channelers so often die because they lose the will to live--the One Power is always described as making normal life seem dull. By the way, we've already gotten a POV from a severed channeler: Logain Ablar...but so far, he hasn't described his POV of being gentled, only that he felt a deep sense of loss, despondence.<br /><br />Moiraine44: Theoretical, yes, but the experiments described in the theory make it scientific. You've hit on a very important point: self-acceptance. Maybe that's what it takes to win Tarmon Gai'don. LTT lost because he didn't accept himself as the Dragon? And because of that, Rand doesn't consider himself the Dragon REBORN, just as the Dragon? Interesting....a new theory in the making there.<br /><br />daes daemar master: True...remember I conjectured that should body control relax, Righty may try to take temporary control. The ear-rubbing is rather a quiet version of the seal-breaking episode. As far as I can see, we've never been told whether Rand is naturally left-handed or right-handed, although he handles the sword with his right hand (this is highly recommended and sternly trained in sword-handling lessons, due to the predominance of right-hands).<br /><br />This is stretching a bit too far, but haven't you noticed how the first letter of the names Lews and Rand correspond to &quot;Lefty&quot; and &quot;Righty&quot;? Either Rand is actually Righty (possible if he's left-handed), or it's another example of opposites (&quot;Lews&quot;=&quot;Righty&quot;; &quot;Rand&quot;=&quot;Lefty&quot; ).<br /><br />Anick alSev: SBPs may not hear voices, true. Would you admit hearing voices? High risk of being labelled insane or schizophrenic there...Channelers are different only in that they channel. The Taint does have physical effects: we are told how if the Taint is allowed to progress far, the body literally starts to rot, while the person is still alive. Perhaps it begins on the inside (i.e. the brain, perhaps because so much channeling is mental).<br /><br />Pooch: Glad you like it! Didn't I discuss point D? I speculated on how all humans may have 2 minds and it is only obvious in SBPs because of the surgery they underwent, and in male channelers who suffered the Taint. The battle of hands on the man watching TV and reading the newspaper shows that &quot;Righty&quot; is conscious and somewhat independent.<br /><br />Etzel: Concerning getting skills and memories from LTT and it's relation to schizophrenia: we do not yet fully understand any of the &quot;disorders&quot; related to our brains. Being of more than one mind does not mean you're schizophrenic. I'm not saying that Rand has schizophrenia, only that his condition would be classified as multiple personality disorder by any of our doctors. Imagine yourself a doctor ingrained with the training of conventional medicine...how would you diagnose Rand?<br /><br />ashatwan: After the surgery, SBPs continue to develop new memories. The brain is highly adaptable, provided there's not too much damage to it. Snipping a few nerve fibers is not enough damage for memory to stop developing. I think bilateral medial temporal lobe lesion is different from commissurotomy (brain bisection).<br /><br />Cannoli: The Red Ajah's job is to hunt male channelers down, so they're as guilty of gentling as the circle that does the actual gentling in the White Tower. And who is to say that Red Sisters, by their very expertise on male channelers, do not make up much of this gentling circle? Yes, gentling doesn't heal anything, merely preventing further damages. What damages has been done will remain. Women feel the sense of loss because of the loss of the One Power. There is nothing wrong with their brains, because the Taint was on saidin, not saidar, the half of the One Power that women channel.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Gaeran Amaconde<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />Grand Historian at the Court of the Sun<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />One of Those Chosen to Bring the Light<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" />Master of Graendal's Revels<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" />&quot;If sometimes our dreams come true, what of our nightmares?&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-12-04 01:49:33
subject: <b>Eh?</b>
body:
We have never gotten a POV from Logain. Or form Taim, for that matter... but that's another theory altogether...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Who can deny a Fremen the right to walk or ride where he wills?<br />      -Dune<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-12-04 03:54:30
subject: <b>To Gaeran</b>
body:
<b> Concerning getting skills and memories from LTT and it's relation to schizophrenia: we do not yet fully understand any of the &quot;disorders&quot; related to our brains. Being of more than one mind does not mean you're schizophrenic. I'm not saying that Rand has schizophrenia, only that his condition would be classified as multiple personality disorder by any of our doctors. Imagine yourself a doctor ingrained with the training of conventional medicine...how would you diagnose Rand? </b><br /><br />Well, I'm not a doctor and doesn't know so much about this  but I would rather say that Rand has schizophrenia. <br />He hears and speaks with voices who tell him certain things to do, sometimes even seems to believe to be someone else plus has a distinct paranoia.<br /><br />I heard from multiple personality disorder only in context with abused children. <br />Such children split their personality in many completely differenty persons to bear and compensate the horrible and traumatic experiences.<br />That means they really behave like someone else in a different personality, speaks with another voice, have another body language etc.<br />That's not the case with Rand.<br /><br />Anyway, if I were a doctor who had read the books and heard what RJ said I would know that Rand has <i> really </i> LTT in him, though, and has no mental malfunction. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />


created: 2003-12-04 05:34:16
subject: <b>This is a real, well researched theory...</b>
body:
based on real science. I must applaud that, as we've seen far to little of that lately. However, I don't agree with the conclusion. I don't think LTT's voice is the result of any kind of physical of medical disease, I think RJ intends to let him be really there. After all, RJ has mentioned specifically that Rand got certain skills with the OP from LTT, and he also went through the trouble of having several of the forsaken (Asmo, Lanfear and I think Sammael as well) confirm that Rand's LTT memories were correct.


created: 2003-12-07 15:50:40
subject: <b>That was awesome</b>
body:
That was extremely interesting though probably not whats happening to rand but its still a possibility. Either way its a extremely good theory.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Red vs. Blue<br />&quot;Sorry It's pretty clear your not very popular around here and if I'm going to make any progress at all I cant be directly associated with you I'm sure you understand.&quot; Doc to Griff then Griff to Doc</font><p></p>


created: 2003-12-02 18:19:53
subject: <b>Two points</b>
body:
1) I agree that there must be constraints on what is and isn't possible, but that doesn't automatically rule out the Cydane/Lanfear idea as impossible.<br />2) Maybe the Finns actually want the treaty to be broken by humans, so they can break their half. Think of the ants in the Riftworld by Fiest, they were bound by an unfair treaty but couldn't break it of their own will. What will Thom and co set in action when the treaty gets broken?


created: 2003-12-02 18:30:51
subject: <b>HMMM..........</b>
body:
Questions or requests connected to the shadow are punished severely (I think Moiraine mentioned that??); Logically therefore if an actual darkfrind, or a Chosen for that matter, entered the doorways they would be severely dealt to (maybe killed - see Lanfear??). The DO can revive her because he doesn't have to &quot;Step outside of Time&quot; to do it.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Your Soul is Mine!!!  MWHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-12-02 20:09:34
subject: <b>good job</b>
body:
i think it was a good observation that the aels and eels operate like the green man does (or did): on a basis of need. it seems that many AoL objects/creatures have been very wisely restricted. The AS took care that no one would misuse them. The need factor could also contribute to the strain that is put on them when rand, moiraine, and mat go in at once. not only are they all vital to the pattern, they all <b> need </b> answers.<br /><br />good work.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">hot damn.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-12-03 10:05:46
subject: <b>maybe</b>
body:
I like your theory, it is good common sense.  However, I do not agree with your reasons against the Lanfear theory.  She did ask for personal things.  If the Eelfinn can give Mat memories, why not slightly re-arrange someone's body?  They may not have raised her strength in the OP, she may have been reduced by the DO as punishment for her scheming.  Or maybe the Eelfinn found away to enhance her power be melding her with an agreal they had in their posession?  Now, if Lanfear went through the door before, maybe she should not be able to again.  We don't know that the doorway to the Eelfinns works that way.  But if it does, she was touching Morraine.  This could make the difference.  She was dragged in with Morraine and killed by the Eelfinns for coming through the doorway a second time, breaking the ancient treaty.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">May you be successful  in all your projects.<br /><br />I am a pastafarion.  The Flying Spaghetti Monster created the universe, and no one in Kansas can prove me wrong.<br /><br />http://www.vengaza.org</font><p></p>


created: 2003-12-03 11:36:22
subject: <b>Reply</b>
body:
It must be false that Lanfear went in the AoL to Finnland and wished to be the most beautiful and, concerning the OP, strongest woman in the world (as the brainwave proposed) because the Finn could not make that.<br /><br />They can give you something (also memories), but they can't directly change someone as we see on Mat.<br /><br />I also don't see how they could melt an angreal with the body of a person so that the OP strength increases, bme. <br /><br />If Lanfear had wished to be stronger or prettier they had probably given her *angreal to achieve that if they had ilk.


created: 2003-12-03 18:52:23
subject: <b>Changing people</b>
body:
First off, good theory.<br /><br />I only have one thought about it, though.  I don't agree with your reasoning as to being unable/unwilling to change a person.  Mat wished to be free of the One Power, and they found a way to do it.  Just because they didn't make him a gholam doesn't mean they couldn't/wouldn't.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="8A2BE2"><i><b>Fae</b></i></font><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" />Pronounced 'Nynaeve' without the glossary<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> Wonders why there is a <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gimli.gif" border="0" /> but not a Legolas<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><font color="FF0000">Vash the Stampede is my hero.</font><br />&quot;This one gang kept wanting me to join because I'm pretty good with a bo staff.&quot;<br />-<font color="339999">Napoleon Dynamite</font></font><p></p>


created: 2003-12-04 06:52:24
subject: <b>Brilliant summary</b>
body:
Though I disagree that it must nescesarily disprove the Asmo-theory. You assume she said &quot;kills Asmo&quot;, she may as well have said &quot;help me kill Asmo&quot;, then it would have been for her.<br />Also, the fact that they gave Mat a ter'angreal does not mean that they cannot change appearances, but that they chose not to do it in that instance. Thus, it is not proof that they did not change Lanfear.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> <font color="a52a2a">Magnus Alexander corpore parvus erat </font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <font color="b8860b">Dissenting voice of wotmania</font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <br /><font color="6495ed">Frightfully stubborn pacifist</font> <br /><br /><i><font color="669900"> Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent</font></i></font><p></p>


created: 2003-12-04 11:51:45
subject: <b>Like the Theory.</b>
body:
You made good points for individual needs.<br /><br />Have never believed that Lanfear went through the Door to gain beauty or OP enhancement.<br /><br />Also, I have grave doubts that the Finns are friendly with the DO`s minions.<br /><br />I do believe it`s possible that the Finns took some of Lanfear`s OP ability as the price for releasing her, accounting for her being weaker in the OP usage.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2003-12-04 13:25:44
subject: <b>what about Moraine</b>
body:
It is a good theory but what about Moraine. She went through and she hadn't been through before so she should have made a deal. Because of this I believe that she is still alive


created: 2003-12-04 16:08:49
subject: <b>To mierin sedai</b>
body:
<b> Though I disagree that it must nescesarily disprove the Asmo-theory. You assume she said &quot;kills Asmo&quot;, she may as well have said &quot;help me kill Asmo&quot;, then it would have been for her. </b><br /><br />Yeah ok, but that is hardly to believe. <br /><br />IIRC I already said it to you in another discussion about Asmo's killer (when we had only one MB after the crash); you would rather wish to get out of Finnland and not any help to kill Asmo (why would Lanfear need help for this?).   <br /><br />Besides, the theories I meant actually said that Lanfear wished Asmo's death.<br /><br /><b> Also, the fact that they gave Mat a ter'angreal does not mean that they cannot change appearances, but that they chose not to do it in that instance. Thus, it is not proof that they did not change Lanfear. </b><br /><br />If the Eelfinn could easily make a person immune against the OP, why do they give Mat the Medaillon?<br /><br />We suppose that at least the Aelfinn are not immune against the OP. Rand channels saidin on his trip through the doorway in TSR and can keep them in check. <br />Surely nothing else applies for the Eelfinn and thus it would make more sense that they maintain a OP negating ter'angreal.<br /><br />That means they had changed Mat if it was in their power. But it wasn't. <br />For the same reasons also Lanfear's body wasn't changed by the Eelfinn.<br /><br />As I tried to make clear, the Eelfinn are rather traders than almighty, every wish fulfilling sorcerers.


created: 2003-12-05 09:57:11
subject: <b>think about it</b>
body:
Mat needs the medallion, because several times he was healed by the one power.<br /><br />great te'veren luck if they made him immune to his only saviour.<br /><br />( a sword in the gut would kill him just like any other person)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Seeking Aes Sedai for Bondage... uhh bonding. <br /><br />We rode on the winds of the rising storm,<br />We ran to the sounds of the thunder,<br />We danced among the lightning bolts,<br />and tore the world asunder.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-12-06 04:58:41
subject: <b>The Medaillon is an advantage for Mat...</b>
body:
compared to an immune body, that is right, Mussels.<br /><br />But then it would be strange if the tricky Eelfinn give Mat only the advantages of being free from the OP and not the disadvantages.<br />Also for this reason it's unlikely that the they could make a person's body immune against the OP; otherwise they had done it.


created: 2003-12-06 14:03:18
subject: <b>Re</b>
body:
It is possible that Rand was lucky, or he blinded those snakes. So it is still possible that they are immune any direct effects of OP, but it is possible to use OP against them another way like using it as source of light like R did.Another thing is that foxes could be lazy or they try to get away as easily as possible, or in Mat's case it was easier to them give to Mat that medal instead of turning him a gholem.<br /><br />Interesting questions are that from where foxes got that medallion? Or did they make, steal or buy it and if they didn't produce it who did?


created: 2003-12-07 17:42:05
subject: <b>Out of whole cloth.....</b>
body:
Here's my theory about the Tower of Ghenjei:<br /><br />What I believe is that based on what we've read, Olver will uncover a way to &quot;beat&quot; the snakes and foxes, and Thom will use that knowledge to go into the doorway from the Stone and recover Moiraine. It has to be Thom, since Mat can't go back in. Yes, I know Moiraine went into the other doorway. But with what Olver deduces, added to Mat being the only person alive who has been to both places other than Moiraine, a way will become evident to traverse from one part of the Tower to the other. The description of Olver's Snakes and Foxes game suggests this. Besides, we know it's possible to get from the Aelfinn to the Eelfinn without using both doorways. Cyndane(Lanfear) comments in Winter's Heart about her power &quot;before the Aelfinn and the Eelfinn held her&quot;. So with only one doorway she is dealth with by both snakes and foxes. It should also be important to note that they HELD her. It is likely, though unproven, that they punished and killed her as a forsaken, but one thing I am pretty convinced of. They DID NOT offer their services to her. No questions answered, no wishes granted. Imagining that she asked for a different body, for Asmodean's death, or anything else is complete fabrication of imagination. Lanfear has far too much pride to change her appearance for the sake of stealth. She would relate that to Moghedien's style, whom she despises quite openly.<br /><br />As others have said, presuming what an entity can and cannot do based on something(s) they have or have not CHOSEN to do, is a mistake. I'll get back to that in a bit.<br /><br />Several others have pointed out, in one manner or another, the differences between the two *finn groups. Forgive me if I summarize here. <br /><br />- The Aelfinns answer questions. According to Moiraine's warning to Egwene, Elayne and Nynaeve, there are &quot;rules&quot; on the types and subjects of questions that they will answer, even on pain of &quot;dire consequences&quot; depending on just how far out of bounds someone gets with a question.<br /><br />- The Eelfinns grant wishes. They demand payment and expect to negotiate a price. It seems to me that as long as you abide by the &quot;treaty&quot;, you get what you asked for. Exactly what the treaty is composed of is of course up for debate, but NOT determined by any of us. Therefore, we have no way to establish the limits of their abilities. Most of us read between the lines that they are sneaky devils, hoping to give up as little as possible on their end while exacting as much payment as possible from the &quot;petitioner&quot;. Payment may actually be in the extreme, if the rules are not followed. This based on the leather straps worn by the fox who guided Mat through the Eelfinn part of the Tower, and the belief that it was made from human hide. Surely as with the Aelfinn, there are rules and restrictions on what sort of wish you may ask.<br /><br />Why they chose to answer Mat's wishes as they did cannot in any way be determined by HOW they answered them. It's enough that Mat unwittingly (Ta'Veren luck) asked them for the three things he (or Rand) would have most need of in the coming days.<br /><br />Back to the Aelfinn for a moment. They are anxious for Mat to ask his questions, and they seem to gain some pleasure, nourishment, or who-knows-what favorable experience (&quot;the savor of him&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> from him after having given their answer. We gather from afterward that Mat and Rand being in the Tower at the same time is likely responsible for the disruption that scares the Aelfinn so much, begging him to leave, and actually giving him more answers than the three he was allotted when he refuses to leave:<br /><br />&quot;You must go to Rhuidean&quot;<br />&quot;If you do not go to Rhuidean, you will die.&quot;<br />&quot;You will have sidestepped the thread of fate, left your fate to drift on the winds of time, and you will be killed by those who do not want that fate fulfilled.&quot;<br />&quot;To marry the Daughter of the Nine Moons!&quot;<br />&quot;To die and live again, and live once more a part of what was!&quot;<br />&quot;To give up half the light of the wold to save the world!&quot;<br /><br />They are so disturbed by this time, believing real harm is about to come to them from Mat's presence (and Rand's, as we learn from Moiraine two Ta'Varen through the doorway at once could have been disastrous), they are begging him to leave:<br /><br />&quot;Go to Rhuidean, son of battles!&quot;  &quot;Go to Rhuidean, trickster!&quot;  &quot;Go, gambler, go!&quot;<br /><br />They know who he is, what he will become. No one would ever think of Mat Cauthon as a &quot;son of battles&quot; until after his visit to the Eelfinn.<br /><br />There, with the foxes, Mat thinks he will get the answers he couldn't get from the snakes. What he really gets is the accomplishment of three things he wants. I'm not ready to say that there are specific words creating a formula for a properly requested wish, these beings are intelligent enough to understand a wish for what it is regardless of the specific words used to frame it. What they refuse to do for Mat is answer his questions, which isn't their task, isn't in their part of the &quot;treaty&quot;. But here are his wishes:<br /><br />&quot;I walk around with holes in my memory,...I would want those holes filled&quot; It is to this that the fox answers, &quot;Done.&quot;<br /><br />&quot;Well, I want a way to be free from Aes Sedai and the Power...&quot;<br />&quot;and I want to be away from you and back to Rhuidean...&quot;<br /><br />After, they call Mat a fool for not first agreeing to price. Apparently the accepted protocol for visiting the foxes is to negotiate what you are willing to 'pay', or give up, to get what you wish for, and then state your wishes. I'm sure everyone agrees with this. Most certainly, the only thing that saved him from becoming a new harness was his wish to be away from them. This is backed up by their comment  &quot;Wise to ask leavetaking, when you set no price, no terms.&quot; They would have been free do to with him as they wish, as long as they had first granted his wishes. Since his third wish was to be out, they couldn't skin him. But they didn't leave him unharmed either. The &quot;payment&quot; for their work, we are led to believe. In turn, he gets the holes filled in, but not by the return of his own memories. He gets a way to be free of Aes Sedai and the Power, but by a Power-soaking medallion, instead of a way to be GONE from AS influence in his life. And he gets hung by his new Ashandarei from branches of the Tree of Life. The price paid.<br /><br />And realistically (if such a phrase applies to fiction), that is all we know from the books. Limits on their power? How do we know? How is it they come to be on this world? They surely aren't of it. The snakes can see the future, and the foxes can provide the results of ones' desires. If questions about the shadow have dire consequences, then perhaps the *finns are under rules as well, from an outside force. Perhaps that is a matter of the &quot;treaty&quot;. It is only speculation to think that the treaty was with Aes Sedai from the AoL. It makes sense, but that doesn't prove it. If they are agents of light, anything relating to the shadow, the forsaken most of all, would create trouble. If two Ta'Veren nearly damaged their existence in this world, what would a forsaken going in there do? I don't believe they would be allowed, or given any results. So theories about Lanfear having visited them in the past are unlikely. Saying that they couldn't, in answer to a wish, make physical changes to someone is uncertain at best. Someone who knew who and what they were dealing with that went to visit the foxes could most likely get just about anything that didn't violate the treaty.<br /><br />That brings me back to the beginning. And a new point. Moiraine knew what to do going through the doorway in the Stone, based on histories of its use in Mayene. Rand learned the same way, reading up in books. Since the doorway in Rhuidean has been there undisturbed since Rhuidean became &quot;off-limits&quot; to all but Aiel wise-ones and clan chief prospects, noone of the current time knows it even exists, much less about who is met on the other side. This also makes me wonder about the treaty. If that treaty had been with AS, would there not have been some written record of it? AS love their record-keeping, and with folks as snoopy as Verin, Moiraine, Suian and Cadsuane about, someone would have turned it up. Well, who can know for sure?<br /><br />The Tower will be visited again before the series ends, of that I am certain. Whether any other answers are given is up to RJ. And we all know he can be a bit snaky.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> Call me Tim <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-12-11 04:29:19
subject: <b>Overall I agree</b>
body:
Overall I agree with what Etzel has stated. There are a few minor points that I don't entirely agree with, but overall the theory seems sound enough. Obviously the Eelfinn grant the &quot;wishes&quot; how they wish to do so, so it's not necessarily how the wisher would like. Also it would be quite ridiculous for the Eelfinn to be all-powerful in wish-granting. Besides, just as the amount of BF required to take out the DO would destroy the would and is therefore is not a feasible solution or will ever happen, in all likely-hood no one would ever be able to pay the price associated with wishes that are extremely large, such as kill the DO or bring someone back to life or somesuch (I suppose that the last might be possible (assuming that you can make wishes regarding other people), but I doubt that it's possible to wish for people back from the dead). Anyways, any wishes that are extreme would in all likely-hood be impossible for the Eelfinn to grant or the price would be too large for someone to pay.<br /><br />As for Lanfear, perhaps her current situation has do to what happened in Finnland. I would think that she got her body as Osan'gar or Aran'gar did, but perhaps not. Being weaker in the OP is probably due to events in Finnland, but not necessarily. However, I think that it's EXTREMELY unlikely that she had ever been to see the Eelfinn before. It is quite clear that the Aelfinn can be visited throught the doorway in Tear only once and I think that it's fairly safe to say that the same goes for the doorway from Rhuidean. True, it's not a guarantee, but particularly with how interested RJ is in balance and having similar things (such as the two halves of the OP) being similar yet different, I think that it's fairly safe to say that the doorway from Rhuidean can be entered only once (though of course now it can't be entered at all). So, I think it HIGHLY unlikely that Lanfear gained height or beauty in Finnland during the AoL. That's more complicated and - in my opinion - less interesting. In fact, I would say that it would it right in with the Finn to have the cost of getting out being her body as it was (becoming shorter and less beautiful) and losing strength in the OP. After all, those are quite probably the things that she cares for the most about herself. But on the other hand, if she <i>could</i> have wishes granted that related to others and had had the chance to wish, it would obviously have been Rand/Lews Therin-related and nothing occured to give her Rand or kill him. And having any wish of Lanfear's result in Asomdean's death is far too complicated too be reasonable and is unsupported in the books - and unless it was somehow her in her old body showing up it couldn't have worked because he recognized his assassin. Anyways, I think it safe to say that this was Lanfear's first trip to Finnland and she didn't like the results.<br /><br />Anyways, overall, Etzel had some good points and it was a rather interesting theory. Good job.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Kalessin</font><p></p>


created: 2003-12-12 08:29:23
subject: <b>Overall, I think this theory is well reasoned out..</b>
body:
it's just that I think the idea of Lanfear killing Asmo is too good not to be true. <br />But that's just my opinion.<br />However, in the reply above Etzel said something about Lanfear not being able to enter the finn worlds in the AOL, because she is a forsaken. The problem is, that if it happened, it happened a long time before the DO broke free, at which time there were no DFs.


created: 2003-12-18 15:10:12
subject: <b>Mat / memeories</b>
body:
If the memories Mat got were all from adventurers who went to finnland and they took their memories, how is it mat has the last memories of the king/general? of Manetheren. Mat also says (no quote sorry) he has lots of memories of dying.<br />The finns couldn't possibly have these, obviously.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">My sig got old and died.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-12-18 16:59:00
subject: <b>Souls</b>
body:
There is a possibility that Foxes can steal souls of those who make deals with them. Or if one makes a deal with them that person's soul won't go where other's souls go after their death but they will capture it and do to it whatever they want. That would explain how foxes could give to Mat memories that included death. That would also explain how Mat survived his hanging. Explanation of that was that foxes didn't want his soul but his services in Randland.


created: 2004-02-09 16:35:12
subject: <b>extremely wrong</b>
body:
The Eelfinn do indeed possess the power, AND the will to grant ANY wish, no matter what. If you'll notice, and this in itself is quite subtle of Robert Jordan, the only way that they will AGREE to grant a wish, is if the person asking pays them what they think is a good enough price. therefore, it is probably set up in such a way, that no matter how much a person payed, extremely powerful wishes would never be able to be payed for because no one would be able to pay.<br /><br />and that thing afout the Aelfinn not always being right, you are pathetic mind compared to the greatness of Robert Jordan, and so far there has been nothing at all in any book to so much as even SUGGEST that the Aelfinn have even once been wrong. not to mention, the fact that the Aelfinn might have their own special way of viewing the future, and this way almost certainly HAS NOTHIN TO DO WITH STINKING TEL'ARAN'RHIOD OR THE PORTAL STONE WORLDS.<br /><br />AND I HAVE HAD IT UP TO HERE *FINGERS ABOUT A MILLIMETER AWAY FROM THE TOP OF MY HEAD* WITH YOU IDIOTS WHO TRY TO SAY THAT THE CREATOR IS MORE POWERFUL THAN THE DARK ONE, AS ROBERT JORDAN HAS EXPLICITLY STATED THAT THEY ARE EQUAL IN POWER. DONE CASE CLOSED.<br /><br />if you disagree with me or have any comments, i would be MORE than happy to hear them at ngwharuka@yahoo.com thanx ja ne'au revoir<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> &quot;I'm the D.O.&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /> &quot;No I am&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rand.gif" border="0" /> &quot;KILL THEM!&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /> &quot;You can't possibly win!&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" />*smirks* &quot;Ya wanna make a bet???&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perrin.gif" border="0" /> *mutters* &quot;stupid axe&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/avi.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/min.gif" border="0" /> &quot;YOU CAN DO IT!&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-21 23:36:56
subject: <b>Interesting...</b>
body:
<i>After looking at Mat&#8217;s wishes I believe the conditions are that you can only wish three times, only wish something for yourself , and the Eelfinn only grant your wish if it&#8217;s possible for them and they get a price in return .<br />Furthermore you have to use the phrase &#8220;I want&#8221; , when you wish something.</i><br /><br />I believe that you are correct here. Note that no one could wish that the shadow win the war or for other &quot;global effects&quot;  because &quot;wishes&quot; only apply to one person. There is also a question as to wether or not the Finns can even alter the &quot;real world&quot; outside of finn land. However I maintain that they could permanantly alter a person while they were in finnland.<br /><br />I also agree that they are traders. They make bargains. As such I suspect giving Mat the medalion was much easier for them than actually modifying his body to resist the power. I do not believe that you have shown that the finn cannot alter a person. I suspect they can. It should also be noted that in my Lanfear theory I suguest that she cheated. Of course she could never have paid the price for her wishes.<br /><br />Also as to wishes/questions that &quot;touch the shadow&quot; being off limits we must remember that at the time I propose the wishing took place Lanfear was not a darkfriend but simply a researcher. <br /><br />You make some very good observations, however I do not see that you have disproven my theory.


created: 2004-04-07 21:35:46
subject: <b>Need</b>
body:
The Eelfinn seem to be all powerful, just like the Aelfinn are all knowing, again, one of the equal/contrasts that are prevalent. The keyword is &quot;need&quot;.  The Eelfinn ask &quot;What do you need?&quot;, not &quot;What do you want?&quot;. For the Aelfinn, frivolous questions are punished.  So, for the Eelfinn, wouldn't it make sense that frivolous wishes would be punished as well? <br />As for Mat's medallion, he asked for a way to be free from Aes Sedai, what he was given was a ter'angreal that neutralized OP, which &quot;accidentally&quot; is the only effective weapon against the ghalom.  The holes in his memories are filled with battle memories, which just happen to be very useful in the time leading to the LAST BATTLE. I cannot see that as a coincidence.  The Eelfinn are giving him exactly what he needs, but he needs to ask for it.


created: 2004-06-23 20:21:45
subject: <b>Good theory, Flawed conclusion</b>
body:
I agree with much of what you say, but I think your conclusion is a stretch. One point I'd like to make, regarding the Snakes, Moraine/Egwene tell us that they only give true answers, but only when the questions deal with their own future: Shadow Rising: &quot;The answers are true,&quot; Moiraine said slowly, &quot;so long as they are in regard to your own future. That much is certain.&quot; SR, Into the Doorway, p. 257. <br /><br />Seems reasonably to assume that the same rules apply to the Foxes as well, since all the other rules apply to both. In this case, it would mean that answers are not granted unless they are in relation to one's own self. Again, Mat's wishes were: 1) He wanted a way to be free of Aes Sedai, he got the medallion. Though not completely protected from them, or saidin. 2) He wanted the holes in his memory filled, granted. But not all of them (he still can't remember all the things that happened to him, but it is better, and it is something about HIM that has been changed. 3) He wanted out. He got it, thought not the way he wanted. <br /><br />In sum, this means one wouldn't necessarily get what one wanted if it was in relation to someone else: &quot;I want Asmodean dead.&quot; Also, that could be considered foolish. But if one said, I want a way to kill asmodean, maybe one would get a weapon, plan, tip, etc to make it possible. In short, nothing here would prohibit Lanfear from asking, and the Finns granting her, more OP ability, or making her the hottest ever. I'm not saying I buy it, but I don't think anything we know rules it out as a possibility.<br />


created: 2004-10-25 08:51:23
subject: <b>Agreed mostly</b>
body:
I must agree that there are probably some more limitations to the treaty than what we have seen so far. Either you can't pay the price for big wishes, or what you ask for must be something for yourself or the limits are something else.<br /><br />Mat (as far as I can understand) did not ask to be immune to the one power. He asked to be free from Aes Sedai influence. Even had his body been made Golam-like, it would not have been what he hoped for. He just wanted to be somewhere far from Aes Sedai and of no interest to them - he wanted an end to the manipulations. Finns filled his wishes the way they needed to be filled, not the way he hoped for them to filled.


created: 2006-08-07 18:58:48
subject: <b>bad theory</b>
body:
i have a thought that makes this theory wrong:<br />i believe that the treaty was, if you did not enter finnland with fire, music, or iron, the aelfinn (or eelfinn, i never remember wich) would grant you the answers to 3 questions, so long as they do not touch the shadow. the aol aes sedai made sure of this. as for mats medallion, they could not give him full immunity because that would also violate the treaty. because a treaty that only limits one sides power, well, its unheard of. and thats why i think this theory is false.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Fortune Rides the Sun on High<br />With the Fox That Makes the Raven Fly<br />Luck his Soul, the Lightnings his Eye<br />He Snatches the Moons From Out of the Sky-by somebody i dont know</font><p></p>


created: 2007-11-12 16:03:13
subject: <b>Several points</b>
body:
You said that they haggle for a profit they see fit.  I agree with this, but how would killing Mat be profitable to them?  If they talked to the Aelfinn beforehand and learned that he would do something to the in a later book,they should have learned that they can't stop it.<br /><br />Are they able to break their side ofthe deal if the other doesn't?  If they can't, this could have serious consequences for Mat.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" />


created: 2008-05-07 07:38:10
subject: <b>Points</b>
body:
I actually like the idea that they grant any Wish, however they tend to do it in the easiest way possible for them. I.E it's easeier for them to give Mat the Medalion than remaking his body to be immune to the OP. Similary it's easier tho invest Mat with their harvested memories instead of restoring those damaged/destroyed by the Shadar Logoth dagger. <br /><br />A friend of mine suggested they don't grant their Wishes in a maliceous way, but rather they have no knowledee what will happen when they grant them. I.E not understanding that hanging a human by his neck will kill him, not understanding that Mat wanted his OWN memories, etc.<br /><br />I am also a supporter of the Lanfear pre Bore entry into the Finnland. She would not be a Forsaken then, and they would grant her Wishes . Likely the price could have been something as profound as loosing a bit of her humanity, perhaps Empathy or the abbility to love. OK I know she says she loves LTT, but her character seems more like obsessivily lust afther LTT, quite a different state of mind.<br /><br />All in all, great theory.


created: 2003-12-02 15:28:25
subject: <b>Except if Cabriana died</b>
body:
Her body would be dead. The Dark One can stick souls in bodies but he doesn't seem to be able to (or care to) bring the bodies back from the dead. Thus if Cabriana died her body would not be usable for Lanfear. I suppose you could have simply removed Cabriana soul after they were done torturing her, but why? Why is Cabriana's body better than anyone elses? I don't think there is reason Semirahage would have had to hurry simply to free up Cabriana's body. There must be some availiable from raids near the blight.<br /><br />Basically I don't see any evidence other than physical appearance so I think this theory is extremely unlikely


created: 2003-12-02 20:16:54
subject: <b>Because</b>
body:
Channeling is connected to the soul and not the body being occupied, so there would be no specific reason to put her in the body of a channeler. The eye color is not enough evidence, IMHO.


created: 2003-12-02 23:48:46
subject: <b>Lanfear is the DO's 2nd most powerful Chosen</b>
body:
You would think he would try and get her back into the world as soon as possible. Thats why Semirhage was rushing around vacating bodies.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">~TMM<br /><br />Commander of the Lemurs, Destroyer of Worlds<br /><br /><b><font color="red">This message was edited by 100 lemurs at 25:25:25 AM 13/39/3000</font></b><br /><br /><font color="red">Hail the lemurs. They know where you live.</font><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-12-02 23:56:12
subject: <b>Probably from the borderlanders</b>
body:
Semirhage had to rush so Halima could arrive at the rebel camp as soon as possible with all of the information Cabriana could provide.  I don't think they would give Lanfear a body that's recognizable by any Aes Sedai.  If any of them happened to see &quot;Cabriana&quot; alive then Halima's position would be vulnerable, since she said that Cabriana died.  I think they probably got Cyndane's body from the Borderlands, just like Aran'gar's and Osan'gar's.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Wartherded by Phil Reborn<br /><br />CW</font><p></p>


created: 2003-12-03 09:58:29
subject: <b>It could be...</b>
body:
But as you said we know that Cyndane is especially very short (it's mentioned by Graendal &amp; Demandred). <br />This striking attribute of her is not noted by Semirhage.<br /><br />Of course that must not necessarily speak against your theory.<br /><br />Hmm, I'm undecided.<br />


created: 2003-12-03 14:44:31
subject: <b>Except, Deadsy,</b>
body:
once an As is stilled and becomes young looking again, other AS don't recognise them. Like with Siuan and Leane in LOC. Not that Moridin has let Cyndane near any AS yet and may well not.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> Linda Sedai <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Proud member of the Embroiderer's Guild of the White Tower<br /><br /><b><font color="red">FAQ admin</font></b> </font>'cos the FAQ is where it's at.<br /><br /><b>Currently working on:</b> my 70th FAQ<p><a href="http://13depository.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">The thirteenth depository : A Wheel of Time blog</a></p><p></p>


created: 2003-12-04 11:38:05
subject: <b>Undecided</b>
body:
The physical description fits in parts, but as Deadsy said, Semirhage was being rushed in order to get Aran`gar to the SAS.<br /><br />Of course, Cabriana could have been used for both Forsaken: information for Aran`gar and Cabriana for Lanfear`s new body.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2003-12-05 14:38:49
subject: <b>I think...</b>
body:
the evidence is a little thin. I mean, there are probably hundreds of women with pale hair and blue eyes, and I don't think there's any reason to think Cabriana was used for anything but her information, especially since Semirhage never thought about any reasons to keep the body intact or somesuch.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Beka Sedai<br /><br />fell for you like a suicide from a bridge</font><p></p>


created: 2003-12-05 17:41:22
subject: <b>doesn't make sense</b>
body:
Plus the hair doesn't match.  Cyndane hair's is described as being silver (or is it white?), either way an unusual color.<br /><br />Anyway, it doesn't make sense.  As Halima shows, channeling is linked to the soul, not the body, so there would be no reason to try to grab an Aes Sedai for the reincarnation, not if she's not going to take her place, which she obviously does not because Cabriana is reported dead.


created: 2003-12-02 14:12:31
subject: <b>Comments again:</b>
body:
OK, I do disagree with this theory more or less completely <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> ... but, it was entertaining to read (and slightly schizophrenic). <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> As far as criticism goes, I think that it relies way too much on speculation, so there is no real proof for it. It did get me thinking on the whole drill in the bore, however, so it may spark off a few new theories in the future.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="blue"><img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /> <b>PROUDLY CELEBRATING 10 YEARS OF WOTMANIA!</b></font> <img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /><br /><br /><font color="purple"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <b>FAQ and WoT Admin</b></font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><font color="gray"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> <b>Part-time Philosopher of the Wheel</b> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /></font></font><p><a href="/wotmessageboard2showmessage.asp?MessageID=107993" target="_blank">New WoT quizzes!</a></p><p></p>


created: 2003-12-02 17:14:12
subject: <b>Congrats</b>
body:
Great thinking, realy!<br /><br />You made on misstake concerning physics: matter c&#225;n be destroyed/created, it is energy (of what matter is only one manifestation) is the indestructible one.<br /><br />Although I don't agree, I still have to bow to you


created: 2003-12-02 18:23:46
subject: <b>Well</b>
body:
I think it very well could be a bore that needs to be unweaved, and have thought it for a while.<br /><br />But, doing the loose unweave would be crazy - as Avi said to Elayne, it could simply still everyone nearby. It is just too unpredictable.<br /><br />Also, the &quot;can't make matter/energy from nothing&quot; isn't true - you have magic/channelling that does this all the time, and while RJ was a scientist he is now a fantasy writer. Of course this doesn't really hurt your case.


created: 2003-12-02 22:29:45
subject: <b>Re:</b>
body:
Quotes Adrian:<br /><br /><b>&quot;But, doing the loose unweave would be crazy - as Avi said to Elayne, it could simply still everyone nearby. It is just too unpredictable.&quot;</b><br /><br />Lews Therin's strike on Shayol Ghul WAS crazy, but it came from desperation. I think that everyone is going to be really desperate really soon myself. <br /><br />I'll admit that I've got some of the science wrong, (It was late at night when I wrote it) but I doubt balefire could have been used when they drilled the Bore in the first place.<br /><br />Speculation. Yes, exactly! That is what a theory is. If you can prove it with hard evidence then that would be fact, not theory. <br /><br />The basic author, (of any book) doesn't include scenes or things that don't matter. (Although Jordan does press it a bit). We're left asking several questions.<br /><br />Why does Lanfear think she and Rand can challenge the DO?<br />Why did RJ include the thing about unweaving?<br />How was the Bore drilled?<br />How can time be a circle if the prison was whole but now isn't? Or is it?<br /><br />You do have to speculate if you want to get anywhere from there.<br /><br />Any other comments? <br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><i><b>DARTH DRAGON</b></i> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><b><i>&quot;Truth begins as heresy.&quot;  </i></b><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-12-02 23:58:15
subject: <b>probably not</b>
body:
if the dark one's reach was coming through the hole, there is a good chance that it couldn't be closed.  The seals likely put a stopper at the begging of the hole.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">He who knows nothing can understand nothing.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-12-03 03:44:54
subject: <b>Great Theory</b>
body:
What you argue makes a lot of sense, especially your points about Lanfear's confidence that she and Rand could rule the world together.


created: 2003-12-03 10:16:44
subject: <b>I disagree!</b>
body:
If Aviendha or another woman would be such important to undo the Drilling than why is only Rand mentioned as the person who can safe the world, especially in the prophecies about Rand at SG?<br /><br />No, the whole story of the WoT only makes sense if there is something special about <i> Rand </i> (or rather the Dragon), as the champion of the Light. <br />Maybe it has to do with his soul, LTT or his blood etc.. <br />Something like this must be the reason why Rand is important and that only he is able to defeat the DO. <br /><br />Besides, we know from her POV that Lanfear wanted to use the Choedan Kal together with Rand to face the DO &amp; the Creator and thus rule the world.


created: 2003-12-03 14:46:32
subject: <b>Y/N</b>
body:
Lanfear was pretty bent on getting the Choedan Kal and using the female one in conjunction with Rand's using the male one. Clearly, she wanted to use the sa'angreal to be all-powerful, ie, beat up the current all-powerfuls, the DO and the Creator. I doubt that she knows how to undo her mistake.<br /><br />(By the way, Stonedog has a brilliant Mierin short story on his site. Just FYI.)<br /><br />On the other hand, I agree with your point that speculation is part of the reading experience. RJ sometimes gives us too much info or too little; it's up to us to use our brains. Especially on the biggest question of all, WHEN this series is going to end...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/clap.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lan.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/clap.gif" border="0" /><br />Nynaeve and Lan!<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-12-04 11:26:46
subject: <b>Have to go with Etzel on this</b>
body:
If so many can do the deed, Rand is not special.<br /><br />BTW, the &quot;slippery&quot; mentioned in PoD was referring to the threads of the weave to form a Gateway.    The longer one takes to unravel the threads, the slippier they get.<br /><br />RJ explained that the way the Bowl of the Winds was used caused the unreliability of using sai`dar and sai`din after the Bowl use.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2003-12-05 22:36:51
subject: <b>Aviendha is not the Great Unweaver</b>
body:
It is not a Talent!  It is a skill, that ANYONE can learn.  Aviendha says, &quot;...If she can learn to pick out embroidery,&quot; meaning, if she has half a brain, and can tell one thread from another.  Elayne gets the job half done on a first attempt, at a very difficult weave, and she is not known for any sort of particular skill at channeling in general.  It can be learned, with the only limitation being how smart you are and how well you can do it.  She even says it took her far longer to learn than it took Elayne.  The older Wise Ones are probably much better.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


created: 2003-12-08 13:04:50
subject: <b>Not Sure</b>
body:
I'm not sure about the theory, but you made a point I had not thought of before. What if &quot;his blood&quot; (Rand's) means the Aiel? That would be a lot more preferable to Rand dieing (to me as a reader, I mean).<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">May you always walk in the Light,<br /><br />Adan, Jenn Aiel</font><p></p>


created: 2003-12-02 16:34:05
subject: <b>Explain a couple of things to me</b>
body:
We know that gateways have to be held open. When you let go of the Power, they close by themselves. Rand blocked and tied off the weave of Aviendha's gateway, which shocked the be-jesus out of Asmo. Even at that, it was still closing itself and Rand and Avi barely made it back through.<br /><br />When you talk about opening a gateway into T'A'R, just what exactly do you mean? We have seen this done, and all it does is allow a person to enter T'A'R in the flesh.<br /><br />Can you explain any better? Otherwise, I vote thumbs down.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2003-12-02 17:11:25
subject: <b>DO may be holding open the gateway</b>
body:
Once the Bore was opened, the DO was able to touch the pattern.  Like Rand, he may have been able to keep the Bore open with the True Power and perhaps was able to continue to widen the Bore.  The seal of the Hundred Companions arrested this for a time by &quot;blocking the dam&quot; so to speak.  With the crumbling of the seals (which were the focus points ter'angel used to power the tied off seal -  powered by tainted saidin so they were corrupted and failed) this process should continue allowing the DO to further touch the pattern (Shaidar Haran)


created: 2003-12-02 17:19:58
subject: <b>Well, I'll try...</b>
body:
This is a good point, one I neglected to mention in my theory.  I feel the need to mention that I am not saying that this theory is the end all be all, most theories have a few holes in them, and not all of them can be explained, or defended.  You, or someone else, may show me a vital point in my theory that could send it down in flames: if you see such a point, please feel free to point it out to me.  However, I do believe I have an explanation for this.<br />I sort of imagine T'A'R as the fabric that makes up the wall of DO's prison; its the wall of his cell, not the cell itself.<br />Some of you may think this would allow DO to enter T'A'R, but it probably wouldn't: could you move through the walls of your prison cell?<br />Anyway, if this is the case, then Mierin and Beidomon would have drilled THROUGH T'A'R, not into it.  So, it would not be the same thing as a gateway that allowed you to enter T'A'R in the flesh.  I guess that this conflicts with the idea of the nature of the bore causing the Aiel's taboo on entering T'A'R in the flesh.  But if you think about it, the AoL Aes Sedai probably wouldn't have wanted anyone having any accidents in T'A'R, and we all know that people who enter T'A'R in the flesh can affect it much more strongly than those who enter through other means.  So, (assuming the bore is a hole drilled through T'A'R) a taboo on even entering T'A'R via a gateway makes sense.  I guess its a stretch, but all theories have their thin spots.<br />Now to address the first point of your post.  Gateways have to be held open, or they close.  I believe that we have someone who had the motive and means to keep that gateway open... the Dark One himself.<br />Its all really just a question of how powerful the DO actually is.  When the bore was drilled, the Sharom was blown to pieces.  Obviously this was the DO trying to use this newfound escape route.  He was also probably trying to open it up further, or if he couldn't do that, keep it open so that he wouldn't be shut up again.  I mean, doesn't it make sense that the DO would at least make an initial effort to open the bore up himself; and then, failing that, would he move on to using servants to open up his prison the rest of the way.  We don't really know exactly how strong the DO is, but we do know that he's not strong enough to escape from his prison by himself.  However, I believe that he is strong enough to hold open the bore gateway, and that he is doing so.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Samshaidar Mhael<br />The Leader of the Destroyers of Shadow <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-blue.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-red.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/borg.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-green.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-purple.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />I am immortal, I have inside me blood of kings <br />I have no rival, no man can be my equal<br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-12-02 17:22:15
subject: <b>I almost completely agree, but...</b>
body:
...i'm not entirely convinced of your interpretation of Fell's 'clearing up the rubbish', I still believe that he means Rand has to break the seals for everything to work out. What - by the way - fits wonderwell in you theory.<br />Keep up the good work!!


created: 2003-12-02 17:23:40
subject: <b>oh yeah</b>
body:
by the way, that post was in response to Light in the Night's Explain something to me post.  Sorry if I didn't point that out, there was only one post before I started to type my reply, and I didn't realise a second one had been put out in the mean time.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Samshaidar Mhael<br />The Leader of the Destroyers of Shadow <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-blue.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-red.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/borg.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-green.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-purple.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />I am immortal, I have inside me blood of kings <br />I have no rival, no man can be my equal<br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-12-02 17:38:48
subject: <b>About Gateways</b>
body:
The weaves for Gateways can be tied off like most other weaves we've seen.  Sammael tied off the weaves of the Gateways he made for the Shaido so the knot would slip over time, and then the Gateway would shut.  I believe this indicates that the weave could be tied off premenantly.  Aviendha's Gateway was shutting because she released the weave.  It was then that Rand used a weave to hold the closing Gateway open.  <br />I don't know that I agree with the theory, but a Gateway can be left open without the person who made it continuing to hold the Power.


created: 2003-12-02 17:47:09
subject: <b>RE: About Gateways</b>
body:
uggh... I completely forgot about that.  But that doesn't suprise me, I forget a lot of things.  Which is why I so appreciate constructive criticism.<br />I don't know, but if the bore is a gateway, it doesn't seem like the kind of thing someone would tie off.  I mean, can a weave be modified once its been tied off?  I don't know, could someone find out for me?  If not, then the DO definitely wouldn't want anyone doing so.  But even if it can, that just doesn't seem like the kind of thing they'd do.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Samshaidar Mhael<br />The Leader of the Destroyers of Shadow <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-blue.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-red.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/borg.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-green.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-purple.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />I am immortal, I have inside me blood of kings <br />I have no rival, no man can be my equal<br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-12-03 06:36:46
subject: <b>Actually, I like the theory</b>
body:
I was just unclear on a few things which I felt you needed to explain a little better, and you did to my satisfaction. <br /><br />In fact, if I am not mistaken, someone recently posted a thread on the wotboard that would substantiate your claim to a certain degree, if it is true. Supposedly, RJ has said in an interview that it would be possible to make a gateway to another world. I haven't seen it myself, but it does sound logical. Prior to that, we had only seen Portal Stones able to do this. RJ has said in the books that they studied them in the AOL. Perhaps that was what lead Lanfear and Beidomon to the idea.<br /><br />To Fred Gaidin: I was in a hurry to leave earlier and misspoke. Rand did block open a closing gateway, which is different than just tying off, or holding one open.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2003-12-03 07:05:36
subject: <b>congrats to Samshaidar Mhael</b>
body:
very good theory.<br /><br />Yes, there are questions. For example, there's the fact that the evilness of entering T'A'R in the flesh has been well explained outside of this theory. It's the whole Isam/Luc thing about being who you want to be, changing yourself, that kind of evil. As for Having a gateway stay open, in the AoL there were standing weaves mentioned somewhere, and yes, I'm fully confident that the DO could hold the Bore open if he needs to.<br /><br />Also, your theory that the Bore is a gateway made with the One Power shows us why the DO needs people to open it completely. First remember that it was years between the drilling of the Bore and the start of the War of Power, because it took time for the DO to get people to decide to work at opening the Bore further. He needed them because he does not have access to the One Power. Any attempts by himself to alter the state of the Bore would not increase the connection but rather ruin the weave , thus sealing himself off even more.<br /><br />And the DO has at times seemed to NEED Rand. Makes sense he would want the greatest channeler to make the Bore as big as possible.<br /><br />Like you (or someone else?) said, every theory has it's holes, but you've done an excellent job at interpreting the situation to make more sense. It's the best explanation for things that I've seen yet.<br /><br />(Plus, you quoted me <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Bob L. Sedai (a.k.a. Luge) <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /><br />Fighting off the Taint - <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tinfoilhat.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" />Thanks given to Burr, the ever-helpful theory critic<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />And to Light in the Night, fellow theorist extraordinaire<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Voted Best Screenname 1 (one) years in a row.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-12-03 10:25:10
subject: <b>I agree...</b>
body:
and I also think that if the weave needs unweaving who better than Aviendea and Rand linked. That could further be a reason to why Jordan gave the ability to read the residue to Aviendea.<br /><br />Beside the point I have long been thinking if not Rand also have this ability. For the first, he is fast to learn and for the second, remember when he followed Asmodean to Rhuidean.<br /><br />Good work!


created: 2003-12-03 10:34:28
subject: <b>Hmm, must disagree here, too.</b>
body:
It's a quite similiar idea like in Darth Dragon's &quot;How To Undo Mierin's Mistake&quot;. <br />Thus I have the same grave complaints. <br /><br />If actually every person who has the unweaving ability (e.g. Aviendha) could imprison the DO, why is then Rand such important?  <br />Especially since it is also never told that Rand is able to unravel weaves or at least quite competent in it.<br /><br />Therefore I disagree, though you make some good points.


created: 2003-12-03 14:58:38
subject: <b>ooooh</b>
body:
(bug-eyed)<br /><br />An excellent, excellent theory. You've outlined your arguments cohesively and supported them vigorously, despite missing some points. Also, that's one heck of an insight to conceive the Bore as a gateway.<br /><br />Maybe you could further explain Rand's role after he smashes the seals? Do you really think the blood-spilling is metaphorical?<br /><br />Other than that, great job!!!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/clap.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lan.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/clap.gif" border="0" /><br />Nynaeve and Lan!<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-12-04 12:34:57
subject: <b>I like it</b>
body:
Yes, there are some holes, but you addressed most of them. I agree that it makes more sense to drill a bore through TAR rather than simply into it (which we have seen).  TAR surrouns the prison jsut like it surround all the worlds.  The only other critism I can add is that you are basing this theory on what Verin believes are the 4 constants.  However, we have seen over and over again that the current AS are woefully ignorant on what can and cannot be done and on the nature of the world around them.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">May you be successful  in all your projects.<br /><br />I am a pastafarion.  The Flying Spaghetti Monster created the universe, and no one in Kansas can prove me wrong.<br /><br />http://www.vengaza.org</font><p></p>


created: 2003-12-04 12:58:03
subject: <b>RE: ooooh</b>
body:
Thanks for the compliment.  It really wasn't all that much of an insight, though.  I was just reading some theories on various subjects, and a few things just clicked in my head.  I really just connected a few of the more brilliant theories out there, and took a couple of points a little further.<br />By the way, when I said that his blood would be on the rocks of Shayol Ghul in a metaphorical sense, I meant that he would have been killed, but in the case of a monumental explosion, his blood would most likely have all been incinerated... along with the rest of Shayol Ghul.  I was really refering to the spilling of blood being an metaphorical equivalent for any means of death.  You know how prophecies are, they can mean what ecxactly what they say, or a thousand other things... or all of them at once.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Samshaidar Mhael<br />The Leader of the Destroyers of Shadow <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-blue.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-red.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/borg.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-green.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-purple.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />I am immortal, I have inside me blood of kings <br />I have no rival, no man can be my equal<br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-12-04 15:41:23
subject: <b>Nice Theory</b>
body:
Your theory makes perfect sense to me, and it made me think about the properties of T'A'R. It has been overstated that when you enter T'A'R, you have the feeling of unseen eyes watching you. Maybe thats the DO, looking out of his prison into the only thing around him?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Dinkle Donkle, Dinkle Donkle<br />Someone's calling you.<br />GOULET!<br /><br /><b> <font color="C11B17"> <br />Yvonne</font> APPROVED! </b></font><p></p>


created: 2003-12-04 17:34:54
subject: <b>Great Theory...but about Aviendha</b>
body:
If the gateway was made with saidin, then Aviendha wouldn't be able to see the threads to unweave it.  On the other hand since Beidomon and Mierin were linked maybe it's part saidin and saidar.<br />Anyway, it looks like Rand will have to learn to unweave himself, since LTT doesn't know how to.<br />Overall this is a great theory, and it's given me something to think about.


created: 2003-12-04 17:57:52
subject: <b>I like....</b>
body:
the only problem is, like in the merin's mistake theory, that if this is true then why is Rand the one called the saviour of the world? surely that would be Avi' seeing as she seems to be the one who'll close the bore<br /><br /><br />otherwise it's an excelent theory<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Tel the ponderer of strange things <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wearer of the trilby <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> Blademaster <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-red.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-12-04 18:28:08
subject: <b>Re: I like...</b>
body:
Well, actually, if Rand and Aviendha were linked, then Rand would have to do the unraveling, because in a circle of two (1 man+1 woman), a man has to control the weaves.<br />Another point I would like to make is that Rand is Ta'veren, therefore drastically increasing the chances of success in any endeavor he undertakes.  Obviously he, Perrin, and Mat will all three be a Tarmon Gaidon, so I bet some freaky things will be happening, and probably mostly in their favor.  But I've digressed, my point is, Rand being a Ta'veren is the least of the reasons it would be him unraveling the Bore; some others being:  He is one of the strongest, if not the strongest, male channeler alive, he has the two most powerful male sa'angreal in the world in his posession (in case he makes a circle of greater than two), he's the Dragon Reborn, hence the leader, and because of his sense of responsibility probably would not want anyone else to take on a task of this magnitude and importance, he's the Dragon Reborn, hence almost insanely distrusting, and because of the fact that he trusts no one, he would not want anyone else to take on a task of this magnitude and importance, I'm sure I could think up quite a few more reasons, but you get the idea...<br />Anyway, yes, I do believe that Rand will be unraveling the Bore (if it does turn out that way), or at least be invovled.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Samshaidar Mhael<br />The Leader of the Destroyers of Shadow <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-blue.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-red.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/borg.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-green.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-purple.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />I am immortal, I have inside me blood of kings <br />I have no rival, no man can be my equal<br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-12-05 00:39:36
subject: <b>Hmmm...I think I'm flip-flopping on my opinion</b>
body:
due to a couple of quotes that I used from my theory:<br /><br />5. http://wotmania.com/shaitan.asp<br />A research team looking for an alternative to the One Power, headed by Mierin Eronaile (Lanfear) and Beidomon, found a thin place in the Pattern that promised a new source of power. By drilling through this thin spot, they created a hole, known as the Bore, through which Shai'tan could touch the world.<br /><br />6. http://wotmania.com/lanfear.asp<br />What they had actually discovered, though, was a section of the Pattern where the &quot;wall&quot; of the Dark One's prison had become dangerously thin. Although she believed that they were helping mankind with their work, Mierin led the group responsible for drilling the Bore, the hole in the Dark One's prison.<br /><br /><br />If the &quot;wall&quot; became thin, then the Bore was an increase of thinness in one part of the Pattern, right? Doesn't that make a gateway unecessary?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Bob L. Sedai (a.k.a. Luge) <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /><br />Fighting off the Taint - <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tinfoilhat.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" />Thanks given to Burr, the ever-helpful theory critic<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />And to Light in the Night, fellow theorist extraordinaire<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Voted Best Screenname 1 (one) years in a row.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-12-05 03:23:22
subject: <b>Nevertheless</b>
body:
<b> Well, actually, if Rand and Aviendha were linked, then Rand would have to do the unraveling, because in a circle of two (1 man+1 woman), a man has to control the weaves.<br />Another point I would like to make is that Rand is Ta'veren, therefore drastically increasing the chances of success in any endeavor he undertakes. Obviously he, Perrin, and Mat will all three be a Tarmon Gaidon, so I bet some freaky things will be happening, and probably mostly in their favor. But I've digressed, my point is, Rand being a Ta'veren is the least of the reasons it would be him unraveling the Bore; some others being: He is one of the strongest, if not the strongest, male channeler alive, he has the two most powerful male sa'angreal in the world in his posession (in case he makes a circle of greater than two), he's the Dragon Reborn, hence the leader, and because of his sense of responsibility probably would not want anyone else to take on a task of this magnitude and importance, he's the Dragon Reborn, hence almost insanely distrusting, and because of the fact that he trusts no one, he would not want anyone else to take on a task of this magnitude and importance, I'm sure I could think up quite a few more reasons, but you get the idea...<br />Anyway, yes, I do believe that Rand will be unraveling the Bore (if it does turn out that way), or at least be invovled. </b><br /><br />Rand would be helpless without a woman. <br />That means the Dragon can't save the world but the Dragon &amp; a woman. <br />That contradicts with every prophecy (in a wider sense) on this topic we know. <br />E.g. why does the people in the 4th Age only praise the Dragon Reborn but not the woman who helped him? Why is the woman never mentioned in the Last battle prophecies?<br /><br />On the other hand, I give you that the prophecies also said that Rand would cleanse Saidin, though Nynaeve helped him. That shows that your view <i> could </i> be right.<br /><br />Even so I believe the victory will have to do with Rand's blood in a literal sense. <br />One prophecy says Rand's blood in the Pit of Doom (not just &quot;on the slopes of Shayol Ghul&quot; as you say in the theory) will free men from the Shadow. <br /><br />That explains how Rand can face the DO (you only hear the DO in the Pit) and why <i> Rand </i> is such special, and that he must not only use a special weave.


created: 2003-12-05 13:19:25
subject: <b>Oops...</b>
body:
sorry about that misquote, you know, the Shayol Ghul Pit of Doom switch, I try very hard not to make those kinds of mistakes, though I make no claim that they don't happen.<br />But to explain something else, I don't actually think that the flows will slip and have Rand killed, that was just an interesting thought I had, and decided to slip into my theory.  I actually do that his blood in the pit of doom etc. is supposed to be taken more or less literally.  Also, I am thinking that Rand may not actually be directly involved in the unraveling of the Bore gateway.  Here's my idea.<br />Rand goes to the Pit of Doom, and has it out with DO (most likely channeling through the Choedan Kal).  Meanwhile, his buddies Mat and Perrin are leading their respective armies (the wolves, Seanchan, the Aiel, etc...), Logain (I hope) will be leading the Asha'man, and Egwene will be leading the Aes Sedai (Kin, Windfinders, etc...).  Little do they know that this is all a distraction, for while every single other Darkfriend, Dreadlord, any of the Forsaken that are left by Tarmon Gaidin, and even the DO are focusing on their own battles, we've got a circle (probably the Great Circle of 72) working their butts off to unweave the Bore.  Now, I don't know exactly how it will progress from here, and obviously this new little idea has some amazing gaps, a lot of progress to make, but its a start.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Samshaidar Mhael<br />The Leader of the Destroyers of Shadow <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-blue.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-red.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/borg.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-green.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-purple.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />I am immortal, I have inside me blood of kings <br />I have no rival, no man can be my equal<br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-12-05 17:52:34
subject: <b>DO's Prison might be *in* TAR, but it cannot *be* TAR</b>
body:
This is not adding up to me.<br /><br />First of all, characters have gated into TAR numerous times during the series.  If the gateway thing were true, they would be drilling new holes into the DO's prison each time they did this.<br /><br />Second, this would suggest that TAR has been a place of evil since the moment of creation, also something I do not buy.  It seems more likely that TAR is a natural byproduct of having a Great Pattern to begin with, or maybe the source of the thread or something like this.  The Forsaken who walked dreams did so before they were Forsaken, thus TAR was not always a place of evil.<br /><br />It might be true that the DO's prison is *in* TAR, somewhere.  That makes a little more sense to me.  Maybe at Shayol Ghul in TAR.  Or whatever.  If so though, the ordinary rules of TAR would clearly not be able to apply.<br /><br />I do like the concept, that there might not be a second place outside of the Pattern.


created: 2003-12-05 20:02:37
subject: <b>To OrangeAjah</b>
body:
Have you read my theory? The possibility put forth is that T'A'R is the wall between the DO and the Pattern. That would not make it evil in any sense, unless someone were to drill a Bore...<br /><br />And as for people making gateways into T'A'R, that naturally is no problem since the DO is not in T'A'R, but on the other side of it.<br /><br />Does that Make sense?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Bob L. Sedai (a.k.a. Luge) <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /><br />Fighting off the Taint - <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tinfoilhat.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" />Thanks given to Burr, the ever-helpful theory critic<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />And to Light in the Night, fellow theorist extraordinaire<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Voted Best Screenname 1 (one) years in a row.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-12-05 23:08:51
subject: <b>I just thought of something that could help this theory</b>
body:
Ok we have the quote:<br /><br />What they had actually discovered, though, was a section of the Pattern where the &quot;wall&quot; of the Dark One's prison had become dangerously thin. Although she believed that they were helping mankind with their work, Mierin led the group responsible for drilling the Bore, the hole in the Dark One's prison.<br /><br />Now I have not read WoT (except for CoT) for over 2 years, so I could just be making this up, but I thought that you cannot enter the blight in TAR. Why would this be? Well... because TAR is really thin there.<br /><br />But Wait! What if TAR being thin in the blight is not the EFFECT of the DO but instead the CAUSE. Maybe in the AoL TAR in the far north became thin (for whatever reason). That would satisfy the above quote. <br /><br />On another note this entire theory would also help explain why the bore is no where, but is also somewhere. The reason it is no where and somewhere at the same time is because there is a universe (TAR) in between the DO and the world, diffusing the DO's power, but still to a small extent preserving where the prison (and TAR) are the thinnest.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;With the recent accomplishment of the manned lunar landing.... The 1981 manned Mars mission (1982 landing on Mars) is shown as an integral part of the total space program in the next two decades.&quot;<br />- Space Task Group August 4. 1969</font><p></p>


created: 2003-12-06 00:35:33
subject: <b>Orange</b>
body:
I'm not sure if I'm right here.. but the way I took it, when Egwene and Rand do it they're like mice.  A mouse can enter into a wall from one room and live inside the wall, and then exit out back into the same room without ever touching whatever's on the other side of the wall.  What Mierin did is make a hole from one room, through the wall, and to the room on the other side.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Wartherded by Phil Reborn<br /><br />CW</font><p></p>


created: 2003-12-06 11:21:35
subject: <b>Well done!</b>
body:
It's all starting to make sense. T'A'R is the mainframe that surrounds all possible worlds/parallel dimensions. Outside this mainframe the DO lurks, outside the Pattern, powerless unless he reaches through his hole, the gateway, to touch the world... Ahh, my head's about to explode. Too much data..<br /><br />When RJ finishes this series he should sit down and write the complete guide to WoT <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/myrddraal.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/myrddraal.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-12-08 10:48:46
subject: <b>Hmm... the three wives roles</b>
body:
Elayne - make a new access key.<br />Min - help Rand see what to do.<br />Aviendha - link with Rand as Nyneave did in the cleansing to unravel the bore.<br /><br />Av may not be as strong as Nyneave, but she has the bonding to help keep her going better than Nyneave did also.


created: 2003-12-08 12:08:54
subject: <b>hmm</b>
body:
well T'A'R does really play an important role, but is it really outside of the pattern? I like the idea that to close the bore u have to undo it, unravel it, that makes sense somehow.


created: 2003-12-09 03:59:39
subject: <b>To Polly</b>
body:
T'A'R is not outside the Pattern, but rather it is the spaces between (and around?) the Pattern. It is thus a barrier between the Pattern and what lies outside the Pattern (i.e. the DO).<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Bob L. Sedai (a.k.a. Luge) <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /><br />Fighting off the Taint - <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tinfoilhat.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" />Thanks given to Burr, the ever-helpful theory critic<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />And to Light in the Night, fellow theorist extraordinaire<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Voted Best Screenname 1 (one) years in a row.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-12-09 12:56:35
subject: <b>WOW...</b>
body:
This theory really is taking off, isn't it.<br />Shinowa, I totally forgot about Elayne's angreal making abilities, brilliant idea, man.  Nor did I think about Min (see, I miss stuff all the time).<br />Oh, by the way, I would like to make a note about people who enter T'A'R in the flesh nowadays.  There is little or no danger in doing this (at least from the DO personally), for three reasons: Number one, the gateways made by people going into T'A'R in the flesh are nowhere near as powerful as the weaves used to make the &quot;bore gateway&quot;, so we don't have much danger of affecting the DO's prison that way, Number two, we don't have to worry about going into T'A'R, only through it into whatever exists outside the Great Pattern, and Number three, even if there was such danger, our heroes do it only very seldom, so it probably wouldn't matter, in any case.<br />Keep all of those great ideas flowing, people!<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Samshaidar Mhael<br />The Leader of the Destroyers of Shadow <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-blue.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-red.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/borg.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-green.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-purple.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />I am immortal, I have inside me blood of kings <br />I have no rival, no man can be my equal<br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-12-09 13:10:51
subject: <b>Oh, by the way...</b>
body:
There is a brilliant theory out there somewhere (but for the life of me I can't find it, so if you see this, o author of great thought and skill, please claim credit for your idea... and feel free to comment) that described the Bore as a computer.  One of the Forsaken was quoted as saying that Shayol Ghul (where the Bore is) was no closer to the thinness in the pattern than anywhere else, but it was here that you could feel it.  Now, said author has compared the thinness in the pattern to the internet, and the Bore to a computer.  The internet has no physical location, so said computer is no closer to it than anything else in the world.  However, you can access, or experience, the internet from a computer, hence the comparison to the Bore (the place where you can feel the thinness). <br />Could this concept have any bearing on my theory?<br />Hmm...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Samshaidar Mhael<br />The Leader of the Destroyers of Shadow <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-blue.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-red.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/borg.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-green.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-purple.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />I am immortal, I have inside me blood of kings <br />I have no rival, no man can be my equal<br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-12-10 06:36:25
subject: <b>Makes sense...</b>
body:
And it does explain how the events happen surrounding a visit to the Dark One. Like the ceiling of the cave coming closer to one's head, forcing one down, while that weird Shaidar Haran can still stand upright....<br /><br />Good call, I think.<br />


created: 2003-12-21 21:55:58
subject: <b>His children?</b>
body:
If the ability to channel is passed down to your offspring, what about talents?  Aviendha and Rand have a son who also inherits Aviendha's ability to unravel.  This might also explain the Dragon's blood on the rocks of Shayol Ghul.  And as for Rand being the savior of everything, it could be because he brings his children into the world.  Think about Star Wars for a minute.  The Jedi are always saying that Anakin would bring balance to the Force, but it is actually his son Luke that does it.  Just a thought, and I certainly don't like the idea of Rand not being the for sure hero.  He very well could just have his son open the bore unravel it whatever and then take on the DO, but this is all just speculation and prove me wrong please.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">egwene03</font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-06 12:46:09
subject: <b>Sidetracking a little bit here...</b>
body:
Actually, a lot of people ( I don't know if I agree, but whatever) say that Anakin did bring ballance to the force, because he, not Luke, killed the Emperor.  Personally, it seems to me that he shifted the ballance to the light side, but whatever.<br />Anyway, I don't think that Rand's kids will be old enough to make any difference by any action they take personally.  I certainly hope RJ doesn't take the &quot;you killed my kids now I'm so pissed I suddenly have the power and the drive to kill you&quot;, route.  I'm afraid that if he did that I would be so pissed I would suddenly have the power and drive to kill him!!!!<br />GRRR!!!!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Samshaidar Mhael<br />The Leader of the Destroyers of Shadow <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-blue.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-red.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/borg.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-green.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-purple.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />I am immortal, I have inside me blood of kings <br />I have no rival, no man can be my equal<br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-07-09 01:42:40
subject: <b>another little piece of the puzzle...</b>
body:
Isn't it true that you can't visit Shayol Ghul in T'A'R? I remember someone (Verin?) saying there's some places that don't have a reflection in T'A'R...stedding, the Blight, and Shayol Ghul, maybe some others.


created: 2004-12-01 16:10:59
subject: <b>great theory</b>
body:
this is a really good theory. you try to shift credit away from yourself but you shouldn't. you have taken the 'finest ingredients' from the website (and have rightly given their 'growers' credit) but it is you, 'the chef' that has baked the cake! very well done. if i could do it over the web id award you a pie!<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> let the speedbart ride again upon the winds of time <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Made the second post on the new WoTMB2 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-12-06 21:26:05
subject: <b>One little thing</b>
body:
You don't need to unravel a web like Aviendha did for it to go &quot;away&quot;. All that unraveling a weave does is leave no trace of it behind. So, they could just slash the gateway (if it is a tied of weave or a closing weave with the Do holding it open) and it would vanish, sealing the DO away. Also, T'A'R is defintely part of the Pattern, all the worlds are, and the DO is sealed outside of the Great Patter. Sorry to say this, but I think you may be wrong. If I'm wrong, point it out, cause this IS a nice theory, and it would certainly explain some mysteries of T'A'R and the Bore that I've been chewing at for a while.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">http://www.orkut.com/Profile.aspx?uid=4841668765074332965<br /><br />&quot;It's like God gave you the tools to build a house, and the blueprint is in you. Just remember to use rubber gloves.&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2005-06-06 15:04:52
subject: <b>is this feasible?</b>
body:
if t'a'r is the do's prison, or is a barrier between him and randland, why can't he come through it? skimming works in sort of the same way. if a gateway can be opened, you can open another one just the same as the first. using the analogy of rand and egwene to mice, if they tunnelled through one side they could just as well tunnell through the other. if you can do the same things (i'm pretty sure i've heard this) with the TP as with the OP (though with different methods) then why couldn't the DO just open another gateway? meaning, why couldn't he enter t'a'r and then try and enter the real world?<br /><br />the idea of t'a'r being the www is a clever one, then you could consider the seven seals a sort of firewall; but then, that wouldn't be feasible either because once the DO got into t'a'r, all he'd have to do is get someone to use the OP from randland to open a hole for him.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">___________________________<br />i'm a WoThead <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br />___________________________<br />When all else fails, laugh.<br />___________________________<br /><br /><i>Tai'Shar Charleston, S.C.!</i></font><p></p>


created: 2005-10-13 02:20:58
subject: <b>awesome</b>
body:
First off congratz! I really like this theory and I actually have something small to add to lend some more credibility to it. I happen to be re-reading the series in anticipation of KoD and am on aCoS. <br /><br />aCoS p.250 paperback Egwene is describing a Dream she knows to have meaning. &quot;She stood before an immense wall, clawing at it, trying to tear it down with her bare hands. I was not made of brick or stone, but countless thousands of discs, each half white and half black, the anceint symbol of the Aes Sedai, like the seven seals that had once held the Dark One's prison shut. Some of those seals were broken now, though not enev the One Power could not break cuendillar, and the rest had weakened somehow, but the wall stood strong however she beat at it. She could not tear it down.&quot;<br /><br />RJ doesn't have room for idle writings, everything has meaning. We all know at this point that seals are broken he wouldn't go on about it for no reason. Egwene knows this dream to be a Dream. I believe this fits with your idea that there is indeed a block over the bore that needs to be cleared away before anything can be done. Herid Fell's &quot;rubble&quot;. The wall stands for that and the meaning of the discs is clear. That Egwene cannot tear it down however she tries suggests that it is saidin not saidar. Take it however you will but reading this just before reading your theory has me backing you 100%!


created: 2007-01-07 05:32:07
subject: <b>anakin</b>
body:
Anakin bringing balance to the force had absolutely nothing to do with killing the Emperor.  He brought balance to the force by helping to kill all but two Jedi.  Thereafter there were exactly two Jedi and two Sith.  At the end of RotJ, there is one of each, and shortly afterwards each side had a replacement.  The unbalance was that there were only two Sith and a plethora of good guys running around.


created: 2007-06-12 19:31:14
subject: <b>T'A'R' is part of the pattern</b>
body:
Therefore nothing in the wheel of time is the DO's prison, in fact there might have been no prison, DO is just trying to break the Wheel.


created: 2007-12-06 00:45:22
subject: <b>I half way agree...</b>
body:
I agree about the part of your theory that a gateway is how the bore was made. The part I don't agree with is that T'A'R is the DO prison. Because RJ has continually said that Randland is a world of balance, that would mean that the Creator and Dark One were equal entities. If they were equal entities, then they could not just make a magical &quot;shield&quot; around the other, I believe that they are continually grappling with each other for all of eternity, until the Creator's creation called &quot;Time&quot; dies. I think that the gateway just made &quot;portal&quot; of a sort that opened into the place that the Creator and DO fight. The idea about the origin of the T'A'R taboo was well constructed though! Your mind and logic baffles me, though that might be explained by the fact that I am no the sharpest tool in the chandelier!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Got Dignity?<br /><br />Public Forum, Policy, Congress, Expository, Original Oratory,<br />Humorous Interpretation, Dramatic Interpretation, Duo Interpretation, Impromptu, Extemporaneous, Lincoln-Douglas...<br /><br />Any Questions? Sorry, I'm Not Open For Cross-Examination</font><p></p>


created: 2003-12-09 08:20:00
subject: <b>Perrin is necessary for different reasons</b>
body:
He and Mat aren't there to provide emotional support or rational thinking (that's what his girlfriends are for, Light help him), they rather have tasks and missions they have to accomplish on their own in order to make things happen, and they have their own supporting casts to help them work through their parts of the Pattern.<br /><br />The rest of the theory is good though<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


created: 2003-12-09 12:29:05
subject: <b>Throwing axe away</b>
body:
You got some good points. I don't the old Perrin would have chopped off the Aiels hand. But when he threw the axe away, does that mean that he's going to stop going downhill.<br />I don't think we've gotten to the end of the &quot;Aram getting too close to Perrin&quot; bit yet either.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" /> When I have time to kill, I'm comming back for you. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-12-09 14:52:29
subject: <b>Some things to consider.</b>
body:
Your theory is well written and presented.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Not all the dreams about Perrin support it though.<br /><br />There are a few 'dreams' about Perrin and his axe. The first was a visit to Telaranrhiod that Perrin had in TDR: Ishy was encouraging Perrin to give up axe and go back to blacksmith&#8217;s hammer. Perrin replies he is taveren. Ishamael tells him to sit and drink and talk of ways to change fate. So is giving up the axe good for the Light (and Perrin) or not?<br /><br />Egwene's dream in LOC suggests not: Perrin, a wolf lying at his feet, and a hawk and a falcon on his shoulders glaring at each other (Faile and Berelain) over his head, tries to throw his axe away and finally runs <b>with the axe chasing him</b>. He turns away from the Tinker (Aram) and runs faster and faster (from Aram?) though Egwene calls him to come back. So in Egwene's dream Perrin is straying from his task when he rejects the axe. If rejecting the axe prevents Perrin from losing his humanity why is it threatening him so? Why did Egwene think he should come back to it? I think the axe is part of what Perrin has to do in the war against the Shadow - that would fit in with the dreams better.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> Linda Sedai <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Proud member of the Embroiderer's Guild of the White Tower<br /><br /><b><font color="red">FAQ admin</font></b> </font>'cos the FAQ is where it's at.<br /><br /><b>Currently working on:</b> my 70th FAQ<p><a href="http://13depository.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">The thirteenth depository : A Wheel of Time blog</a></p><p></p>


created: 2003-12-09 21:52:39
subject: <b>the only way</b>
body:
I think the only way of Perrin not to lose controle is to get Faile back. If he cant that is when he will lose his grip on reality


created: 2003-12-09 22:36:10
subject: <b>It would be more interesting if.....</b>
body:
Personally, I want Perrin to fall off the cliff. Why? His character is way to bland. I have lond believe that Perrin has gotten the bad end of this ta'veren deal. So, make him go psyco. Kill Faile (who veryone already hates) and give him Berelain. Get him another axe and turn him into a killing machine. Right now hes too.....good....I hate that in a character.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Evilest of the Evil Jawas.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-12-10 07:04:07
subject: <b>I dont think</b>
body:
Aram is a darkfriend. I also think Perrin needs to loosen up. He's one of my favorite characters, but he's is and always has been to calm and to rational. I personally think Rand should just kill a lot of the AS it would make everything easier and the books more fun, but starts to defend them. Man he needs to lose some of his humanity.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Red vs. Blue<br />&quot;Sorry It's pretty clear your not very popular around here and if I'm going to make any progress at all I cant be directly associated with you I'm sure you understand.&quot; Doc to Griff then Griff to Doc</font><p></p>


created: 2003-12-10 17:06:51
subject: <b>Yes, good interpretation...</b>
body:
We have also another Egwene dream in TDR, ch.37, which could be related: <br />&quot;Perrin stepping willingly over the edge of a towering cliff while saying, 'It must be done. I must learn to fly before I reach the bottom.'&quot;<br /><br />IIRC also the wolves or Elyas warn Perrin at one point that he is too often in TAR (try to check that). <br /><br />And e.g. this sentence from Perrin's thoughts in CoT, ch.5 is quite significant: &quot;These days, only the heat of anger gave him the strength to keep moving.&quot;<br /><br />Perrin is already changing very much.


created: 2003-12-11 00:35:41
subject: <b>to continue on with Etzel's Statement</b>
body:
I like this theory. And Etzel said what I would have. To mention one thing further, however, recall that Hopper said that he was in the wolf dream too strong. And we know that the wolf dream is the same thing as the T'A'R. And the Wise Ones have said that being in the T'A'R in the flesh is an evil thing. Or some such. 1 + 1 + 1 = 3.


created: 2003-12-13 16:12:44
subject: <b>oooh <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/oh.gif" border="0" /></b>
body:
interesting, I like it!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">bluestarchic<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" />Executive Producer for Barbaric Films. Oh yeah baby!<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" />Hmm, I'm kind of hungry... This dancing banana looks pretty good<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smackhead.gif" border="0" />Dain Bramaged<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tinfoilhat.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-12-28 21:36:30
subject: <b>Maybe Perrin will push Aram...</b>
body:
off the cliff.  Or the other way around.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">The Mofo J.A.R.<br />Head of Public Relations, Al Bum's Records<br />Lead Guitarist, Inspected by 40<br />Singer, Songwriter, multi-instrumentalist<br />Viking <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /><br />WoT addict<br />http://www.inspectedby40.com<br />First post on TP blackboard 4 times.</font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-08 12:52:15
subject: <b>Perrin will not lose his humanity. }:l</b>
body:
He is, however, becoming more in tune with actions which he must do, in order to win the LB. His total frustration with the Aiel, causing him to chop off the hand and throwing away the axe has shown how he is coming to grips with the real world, and his role in it.<br /><br />Elyas` assurance to Perrin that he was not loving battle too much, but merely experiencing a massive flow of adrenalin, will, IMO, cause Perrin to retrieve the axe until the LB is over.<br /><br />In keeping with another Dream of Egwene, I expect him to lead the wolves in battle against the Shadowbrothers.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-20 16:23:10
subject: <b>Hmmm...</b>
body:
I am undecided. This could be true or it very well couldn't be. I think that the next book will really shine some light on the Perrin situation.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br />Red Sox Fan &amp; Yankee Hater<br />kim: it's too cold there to smell<br /><b>Warder to the wonderful, amusing and ever so smart Elayne_Sedai</b><br />Friends don't let friends read Goodkind<br />My mind isn't always in the gutter, it just has VIP access</font><p><a href="http://tinyurl.com/45t6t" target="_blank">Simply Splendid </a></p><p></p>


created: 2004-10-03 22:29:13
subject: <b>What is Perrin thinking...</b>
body:
IMHO, Perrin has been shifting modes ever since Faile got kidnapped.  Post-kidnapping, his only &quot;real&quot; worry was the Perrin-Faile-Berelain thing.  Okay...  But afterwards, he's consumed by the desire to get Faile back.<br /><br />Perrin obviously blames himself for the kidnapping.  He thinks that he should have taken her into town with him, etc.  He gets even more angry with himself when he screws up the search with the Travelling, sending himself too far south... He begins to reevaluate his way of thinking.<br /><br />Throughout the series thus far, Perrin has been pushed, in one direction or another, by his ta'verenness.  He's done exactly what Rand needed at exactly the right time.  This is the &quot;axe&quot; aspect, the hasty, warlike, leader.  However, Perrin is seeing all this as wrong.  The &quot;forging of a hammer&quot;, as described in the beginning of CoT, is his &quot;hammer&quot; aspect, the cold, methodical way of thinking things through.  I simply see his ditching the axe as the next progression of this way of thinking.<br /><br />Perrin's been next to perfect, throughout the series, thanks to his &quot;axe&quot; aspect.  I can't help but think that he'll screw things up as the hammer.


created: 2005-03-18 22:08:32
subject: <b>Humanity?</b>
body:
I think that although it could possibly signify that he is becoming less human, it is more likely that his isn't.  His numbness shows just how human he is! It is human nature to avoid the things that you don't like, and he guards himself from this emotionally by not caring.  He is simply making himself hard so that he doesn't have to deal with what would him unhappy.


created: 2007-05-17 23:53:22
subject: <b>Battles to come</b>
body:
Dumai's wells won't be that last battle Perrin has to fight, there's Tarmon Gaidon coming after all. And I don't think that he can afford any hesitation there! Dumai's wells is kind of preparation, I think. RJ did a wonderful job showing how three boys from a sleepy village rose to leaders in a war for the fate of humanity. (In fact he is the only author I know who pulled it of believably.) We saw Rand change and Mat, both ready to fight. Perrin we saw turn into a leader of people, into someone taking care of his countries problems, but he didn't really turn into the warrior he'll need to be if he is riding for Tarmon Gaidon. I don't think he looses his humanity. He was always the one accepting things, there you are right. And I think he too accepts that he has to be the tough fighter, even as he might hate it, or go numb afterwards, because some parts of him struggle against it. Yes, he was the one who stood up to Rand about the Aes Sedai but I think he learned that there are things that need to be done, no matter how less he might like them.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Why did I follow him? I don't know.<br />Why do things happen as they do in dreams?<br />All I know is: when he beckoned I had to follow.<br />From this moment on we journeyed east.<br />Always to the east.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-12-09 12:15:48
subject: <b>disagree</b>
body:
I feel there are large number of holes in your interpretations.  Your post is long, and I am not going to go through the whole thing.  I will disagree specifically with how you interpret the line about the dragon tattoos, 'once for remembrance lost'.  I think it is pretty clear that this refers to what happens in Ruidean.  Most of the Aiel do not know who they truly were.  Rand obviously did not.  The society as a whole had forgotten their past. The first dragon is for this memory.  This is backed up since all the clan chiefs also have one dragon and also regain the knowledge of the past.<br /><br />I am not sure what the price to be paid is, but since the first dragon is the memory of the Aiel people, the price to be paid could be the sacrifice of the Aiel at TG until only a remnant of a remnant are saved.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">May you be successful  in all your projects.<br /><br />I am a pastafarion.  The Flying Spaghetti Monster created the universe, and no one in Kansas can prove me wrong.<br /><br />http://www.vengaza.org</font><p></p>


created: 2003-12-09 12:46:18
subject: <b>Two Towers</b>
body:
&quot;Prophecy:<br />The unstained tower breaks and bends knee to the forgotten sign. The seas rage, and stormclouds gather unseen. Beyond the horizon, hidden fires swell, and serpents nestle in the bosom. What was exalted is cast down; what was cast down is raised up. Order burns to clear his path. <br /><br />The white tower is stained by the shadow, a la the Black Ajah. Now that saidin has been cleansed, the Black Tower is probably the unstained tower. The danger from the DO is always growing and isn't always obvious. Order burns to clear his path, because his path is set by the DO's threat on the planet.&quot;<br /><br />I have to disagree with your interpretation here. This bit of prophecy is found in such a place (end of LoC, right after Dumai's Wells) that you cannot interpret the first line in any other way than referring to the White Tower (no, not the Black) being broken (which is of course old news by that time) and bending it's knee to the old sign, which would be Rand's banner of the time (not sure which old sign that is, but I don't think it's the Dragon Banner).<br />This happens almost literally: if I remember correctly, the ending lines of LoC are something like &quot;Nine Aes Sedai kneeled down before the Dragon Reborn, and the world changed forever.&quot;<br />Besides, it's clear from the beginning that the Black Tower is as Darkfriends-infested as the White Tower.<br />Somehow, I also took the &quot;beyond the horizon&quot; as a reference to Seanchan and/or Shara, meaning there were hidden dangers growing there, but that might be wrong.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Legolas<br /><br />Favourite wotmaniac of the one and only Clover <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />- Why is it so damn cold?! <br />- Because Hades had very poor social skills and thought, &quot;Dating... abduction? Same thing, right?&quot; <br />~ Aubrey and Jason, Something Positive<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-12-09 15:07:18
subject: <b>I disagree with some of your interpretations.</b>
body:
The storms rumbling beyond the horizon are groups like the Seanchan that plot against Rand and the mainland without being seen or known.<br /><br />The north is united against the east and the west to the south can be interpreted a different way. Rand has the support of the east (Aiel, Cairhien, Tear, Illian, and some of the north (Andor + Bashere). He may gain more when the Borderland rules meet up with him. In fact this Prophecy indicates he will. THe west and the south are under Seanchan rule. <b> Nowhere</b> does the Prophecy say that the north and east will unit with the west and south. They are 2 separate groups and I believe will go to war as may others' dreams and Foretellings indicate - Nicola's and Egwene's in particular. <br /><br />Nicola: &quot;The great battle done but the world not done with battle. The land divided by the Return...&quot; That doesn't prophesise any union of lands, but rather division.<br /><br />Egwene also has many dreams of fighting with Seanchan and Seanchan collaring long lines of Aes Sedai and Accepted. They wouldn't be doing this if they were united with Rand.<br /><br /><br />Plus there is her dream of May bowling over thousands of people at a go with the aid of an Illuminator.<br /><br />Ishy once described sending Luthair's fleet to Seanchan as a doom yet to come. <br /><br />The future teeters on the edge of a blade because the union with the Seanchan is uncertain and the war with them long and bloody.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> Linda Sedai <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Proud member of the Embroiderer's Guild of the White Tower<br /><br /><b><font color="red">FAQ admin</font></b> </font>'cos the FAQ is where it's at.<br /><br /><b>Currently working on:</b> my 70th FAQ<p><a href="http://13depository.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">The thirteenth depository : A Wheel of Time blog</a></p><p></p>


created: 2003-12-09 16:11:55
subject: <b>Dashiva...</b>
body:
The whole prophecy about the sword stuck in the heart to bind their hearts and he who draws it will follow after. I believe that it refers to Rand driving Callandor into the Stone in Tear to hold them there (his remarks about the purpose of it are very similar to the prophecy). The other part about who takes it out is Dashiva, who withdraws Callandor from its spot. I believe it is Dashiva that will follow after Rand.


created: 2003-12-09 16:49:02
subject: <b>Narishma, not Dashiva</b>
body:
MrDead,<br /><br />I agree with your interpretation of &quot;into the heart&quot;, etc. It's just that it was Jahar Narishma that drew it out (Corlan Dashiva = Osan'gar = Aginor, remember?).<br /><br />Sorry 'bout the nitpicking <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> Let the Lord of Chaos rock'n'rule <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-12-10 05:26:58
subject: <b>Have to disagree with just about all of your interpretations:</b>
body:
The first refers probably to the thing Cads intends to teach him again: laughter and tears<br /><br />Twice and twice shall he be marked,<br /> twice to live, and twice to die.<br /> Once the heron to set his path.<br /> Twice the heron, to name him true.<br /> Once the Dragon for remembrance lost.<br /> Twice the Dragon for the price he must pay.<br />Remembrance lost is obviously the Aiel, I think the price he must pay may have something to to with the way Rand punishes himself about every Maidens that dies.<br /><br />Twice dawns the day when his blood is shed.<br /> Once for mourning, once for birth.<br /> Red on black, the Dragon's blood stains the rock of Shayol Ghul.<br /> In the Pit of Doom shall his blood free men from the Shadow.<br />This is a much-discussed prophesy, but the concensus seems to be that there actually should be some spectacular natural phenomenon (eclips? massive vulcanic eruption) because anything else would be a major disappointment.<br /><br />And his paths shall be many, and who shall know his name, for he shall be born among<br /> us many times, in many guises, as he has been and ever will be, time without end.<br />Guises might refer to other births, see 'Dragon Preborn' theories<br /><br />Power of the Shadow made human flesh,<br /> wakened to turmoil, strife and ruin.<br /> The Reborn One, marked and bleeding,<br /> dances the sword in dreams and mist,<br /> chains the Shadowsworn to his will,<br /> from the city, lost and forsaken,<br /> leads the spears to war once more,<br /> breaks the spears and makes them see,<br /> truth long hidden in the ancient dream.<br />This is a poetical description of Rands fight with Asmo in Rhuidean. <br /><br />Into the heart he thrusts his sword,<br /> into the heart, to hold their hearts.<br /> Who draws it out shall follow after,<br /> What hand can grasp that fearful blade?<br />What did Rand do with Callandor? He put in in the heart of the Stome of Tear. Next time, you really should search old theories, people have been arguing whether 'following after' refers to Logain or Narishma for years now. It turned out to be Narishma.<br /><br />With his coming are the dread fires born again. The hills burn, and the land turns sere.<br /> The tides of men run out, and the hours dwindle. The wall is pierced, and the veil of<br /> parting raised. Storms rumble beyond the horizon, and the fires of heaven purge the<br /> earth. There is no salvation without destruction, no hope this side of death. <br />Also quite literal, considering what the Shadow has been doing to the weather. <br /><br /> The unstained tower breaks and bends knee to the forgotten sign. The seas rage, and<br /> stormclouds gather unseen. Beyond the horizon, hidden fires swell, and serpents nestle<br /> in the bosom. What was exalted is cast down; what was cast down is raised up. Order<br /> burns to clear his path. <br />All about the internal strife in the WT, the BA and the Seanchan threat<br /><br />There can be no health in us, nor any good thing grow, for the land is one with the<br /> Dragon Reborn, and he one with the land. Soul of fire, heart of stone, in pride he<br /> conquers, forcing the proud to yield. He calls upon the mountains to kneel, and the seas<br /> to give way, and the very skies to bow. Pray that the heart of stone remembers tears,<br /> and the soul of fire, love. <br />Again about what Cads intends to teach him<br /><br />The north shall he tie to the east, and the west shall be bound to the south. <br />This one has also been endlessly discussed, as many people hate the idea of the Seanchan ruling half the world. <br /><br />Next time, I think you should give some arguments about giving different interpretations to prophesies which already have been discussed for years. This could have been a very interesting theory if you had explained why your interpretations are better then the canon interpretations, but without that, your theory falls apart. <br />Still, your conclusions are interesting and I'd like to hear you reasons for different interpretations.


created: 2003-12-10 11:27:01
subject: <b>Wow......</b>
body:
Uh I don't mean to be harsh here, but I think you've misinterpretted about every single propehcy there is.  &quot;The unstainded tower bending knee to the forgotten sign&quot; is obviously the White Tower bending knee to Rand.  The prophecy about stabbing the sword in the heart to hold their hearts is clearly about Rand leaving Callandor in the Heart of the Stone.  There are a bunch more that I think you have gotten wrong, but I don't have time to quote them all.


created: 2003-12-10 16:48:03
subject: <b>WRONG!!!!</b>
body:
Rand and LLT are one and the same so the whole basis for you theory falls apart right there.<br />lord knows how many time it's been said that Rand and LLT are the same soul<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Tel the ponderer of strange things <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wearer of the trilby <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> Blademaster <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-red.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-12-10 17:19:46
subject: <b>I liked it</b>
body:
lol sorry nobody else did.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Red vs. Blue<br />&quot;Sorry It's pretty clear your not very popular around here and if I'm going to make any progress at all I cant be directly associated with you I'm sure you understand.&quot; Doc to Griff then Griff to Doc</font><p></p>


created: 2003-12-10 23:12:39
subject: <b>Tough call</b>
body:
I think there were some good points in this theory, however I also think you tried to do too much. Any prophecy has differing opinions, and when you put ten different ones in there, you'll be hard pressed to find anyone that doesn't disagree with at least one of your read on them.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;I can express more emotion than laughter, anger and let's . . .&quot;<br /><br />Shooganooga<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-12-10 23:12:46
subject: <b>I didn't realize all of you knew EXACTLY what the prophecies meant..</b>
body:
I never claimed that this was the only possible interpertation.  Many of you that have posted, however, believe that the commonly accepted ideas about the prophecies are, in fact, truth.  In case you haven't noticed the trend in the prophecies so far, many times the obvious interpretation isnt the correct one.  I was simply offering an alternative view to the theories; some different possibilities.  I hope that from now on you guys can think outside the box a little and come up with some more original ideas.  Those of you who liked it, I'm not asking you to accept it as absolute, and I'm glad that at least you're open to other possibilities.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">He who knows nothing can understand nothing.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-12-11 05:57:52
subject: <b>Some interesting ideas</b>
body:
I like the interpretation of the &quot;Red on black&quot;-prophecy as Rand's red blood and LTT's black blood, it's original (though I don't agree because the prophecy says &quot;when <i> his </i> blood is shed.&quot; )<br /><br />But as the others said you don't really convince me, especially of your view about LTT taking control. <br />Maybe the problem is that I actually don't really understand what your view is. <br /><br />Rand dies somehow (how?) and then LTT takes control of the body (a dead body?) but Rand is immediately reborn again (why?) when LTT sacrifices his spirit but not the body (how?), or something like that?! <br />On the other hand you say &quot;red on black&quot; means that Rand's blood will be on LTT's. In this case LTT should die first. <br />Quite confusing!<br /><br />All in all, some nice points but too many holes and too inconsistent.<br /><br />


created: 2003-12-11 12:07:42
subject: <b>One really good thought from this post.</b>
body:
&#8220;The unstained tower&#8221; could refer to the Black Tower.  Conventional wisdom has been that &#8220;unstained&#8221; meant &#8220;White&#8221; but now the Black Tower has had the taint removed &#8211; it&#8217;s literally been unstained.<br /><br />I still think that prophesy refers to the White Tower &#8220;bending knee&#8221; to the unified ying-yang sign of the ancient AS &#8211; either literally at Dumai's Wells, or in a larger sense of needing to defer to a unification of male and female channelers (something we&#8217;ve seen the early stirrings of in every major faction of AS).<br /><br />But I can&#8217;t deny that &#8220;unstained tower&#8221; now equally describes either the Black or White tower.  <br /><br />As to your somewhat spirited defense above; yes you are definitely &#8220;offering an alternative view to the theories; some different possibilities.&#8221;  Thinking outside the box is fine as far as it goes, but to be valuable your conclusions have to be more astute than the conventional wisdom.  What&#8217;s missing from this theory is why your different ideas are actually better.<br />


created: 2003-12-11 13:37:15
subject: <b>Blah Blah</b>
body:
like everyone else here, i agree that you have some very very wrong idea's of the prophecies meanings.<br /><br />(callandor, the crap cads has to teach rand etc.)<br /><br />but i too, also noticed that &quot;the dragon&quot; and &quot;the dragon reborn&quot; are EACH MENTIONED SEPERATELY.<br /><br />they ARE two people, otherwise rand would merely be the dragon, and not him reborn.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Seeking Aes Sedai for Bondage... uhh bonding. <br /><br />We rode on the winds of the rising storm,<br />We ran to the sounds of the thunder,<br />We danced among the lightning bolts,<br />and tore the world asunder.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-12-12 02:21:07
subject: <b>My Opinion</b>
body:
I have a few things to add about the theory and some of the comments:<br /><br />To Phire:<br />I think you had a unique interpretation of the prophecies.  I like the idea that the unstained tower could be the black (or both, depending on how you look at it).  And I never thought about the Dragon and the Dragon Reborn possibly being mentioned both together and seperately in the prophecies.  Like Mussels said, even if they share the same soul they must be at least somewhat seperate, otherwise there would just be a Dragon, not Dragon and Dragon Reborn.<br /><br />To Tel Janin:<br />Just because something has been said by many people doesn't make it true.  I've seen on here the idea that RJ may be logging on to this site to see what theories are posted, then changing the story so that events don't happen in that manner.  If 100 people say it, that still doesn't make it true.  Just possible.  Also, see last line of previous paragraph.<br /><br />To Etzel:<br />While I agree that this is an unlikely interpretation of this prophecy, there is something about the prophecy itself that I would like to point out.  The statement &quot;his blood&quot; is on an entirely different line than the description of his blood.  In that line it says, &quot;Red on black, the Dragon's blood stains the rocks of Shayol Ghul.&quot;  Phire's interpretation could be correct.  Or the conventional interpretation could be correct.  Or none of the above.<br /><br />Phire, excellent, original theory.  I hope more like it come soon.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Yes, Cuban B...<br /><br />I crashed my van into Jesus!<br /><br />If you try to fail, and succeed, which have you done?</font><p></p>


created: 2003-12-13 08:10:54
subject:
<b>Me in Sweden <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /></b>

body:
<font size="-1"><b>The north shall he tie to the east, and the west shall be bound to the south.</b></font><br /><br />It never says HE shall tie the south to the west, only the north to the east.<br /><br />I liked some of your ideas, but there are so many points there that it's hard to make one theory of all.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font face="bitstream vera">Quality procrastination should always be given the time it needs.<br /><font color="white"> BLANK SPACE BL </font><i>&#169;amilla</i></font><br /><br /><br /><font color="#999999"> Add yourself to the map below</font></font><p><a href="http://www.frappr.com/wotmania" target="_blank">See where wotmaniacs live!</a></p><p></p>


created: 2003-12-13 14:14:40
subject: <b>Thanx for all of your suggestions</b>
body:
it's too bad there isn't an edit option for the TP <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" />... but i can understand why.  Anywayz, for you guys that offered some constructive criticism, i just wanna say thanx.  And i'll use your ideas in any other theories i submit.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">He who knows nothing can understand nothing.</font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-23 22:01:26
subject: <b>I agree w/some but not all</b>
body:
First I am glad that someone pointed out the important fact that Rand is always referred to as the Dragon Reborn and LTT as the Dragon. Now keeping that in mind - one prophecy says : The DRAGON's blood stains etc... Could this mean LTT blood and not Rand? Or could it refer to when LTT led the strike at Shayul Ghul and possibly bled in the fight? <br /><br />The prophecy about Rand being marked four times has to be about the herons and dragons. Once the dragon for the remembrance that the Aiel used to follow the Way of the Leaf. Twice the dragon to prove he is He Who Comes With the Dawn he not only has to show the dragons but must reveal the truth to the Aiel and deal with their extreme reaction. (the bleakness, joining the Shaido etc.) <br /><br />This is all I can go into now.


created: 2004-05-25 03:35:30
subject: <b>one problem</b>
body:
<br />probably said already but:<br />Prophecy:<br />The unstained tower breaks and bends knee to the forgotten sign. The seas rage, and stormclouds gather unseen. Beyond the horizon, hidden fires swell, and serpents nestle in the bosom. What was exalted is cast down; what was cast down is raised up. Order burns to clear his path. <br />did you not read the bit at the end of Dumai's Wells- where the Aes Sedai bent knee to Rand - the prophecy was straight after that bit!!?? i don't think it will be the Black Tower that is &quot;unstained&quot;<br />but other than that - no problem!!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">~Moonwolf~<br />Wolf-sister and Aes Sedai of the Brown Ajah</font><p></p>


created: 2004-09-12 19:18:46
subject: <b>Unstained Tower...</b>
body:
I have to agree with the people who take issue with the interpretation of the &quot;The unstained tower breaks...&quot; prophecy in the theory. LoC almost explicitly tells us what that means, at the end of &quot;Dumai's Wells&quot;. It says the events there were suggested by prophecy, and then ends, &quot;The unstained tower broke and bent knee to the fallen sign. The first nine Aes Sedai swore fealty to the Dragon Reborn, and the world was changed forever.&quot; (I don't have a copy of LoC on me, so this is probably not an exact quotation.) The wording is exactly the same as in the prophecy. And then after a short epilogue we see the actual prophecy quoted.


created: 2003-12-09 12:08:29
subject: <b>why not?</b>
body:
but what bothers me (a little ) is that Rand would have seen the 'wires' he saw around Asmodean... or not, if you consider the Dashiva case... I am not fully convinced either way, but keep working on it !


created: 2003-12-09 12:11:29
subject: <b>Maybe</b>
body:
The wires have always been iffy - they haven't always been seen on forsaken (I don't think on Be'lal in Tear or Rahvin in Caemlyn). <br /><br />Sounds like one of those that could either be true or not but there is no proof either way.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font face="Century Gothic,Arial"><font color="#FF0000">F</font><font color="#FF1500">l</font><font color="#FF2B00">i</font><font color="#FF4000">p</font><font color="#FF5500">p</font><font color="#FF6B00">i</font><font color="#FF8000">t</font><font color="#FF8000"> </font><font color="#FF9200">~</font><font color="#FFA400"> </font><font color="#FFB600">F</font><font color="#FFC900">l</font><font color="#FFDB00">i</font><font color="#FFED00">p</font><font color="#FFFF00">p</font><font color="#FFFF00">i</font><font color="#DBFF00">t</font><font color="#B6FF00"> </font><font color="#92FF00">~</font><font color="#6DFF00"> </font><font color="#49FF00">F</font><font color="#24FF00">l</font><font color="#00FF00">i</font><font color="#00FF00">p</font><font color="#01DB24">p</font><font color="#00B649">i</font><font color="#00926D">t</font><font color="#006D92"> </font><font color="#0049B6">~</font><font color="#0024DB"> </font><font color="#0000FF">F</font><font color="#0000FF">l</font><font color="#2400FF">i</font><font color="#4900FF">p</font><font color="#6D00FF">p</font><font color="#9200FF">i</font><font color="#B600FF">t</font><font color="#DB00FF"> </font><font color="#FF00FF">~</font><font color="#FF00FF"> </font><font color="#ED00ED">F</font><font color="#DA01DA">l</font><font color="#C800C8">i</font><font color="#B600B6">p</font><font color="#A400A4">p</font><font color="#910091">i</font><font color="#7F007F">t</font></font><br /><font face="Century Gothic,Arial">History will be kind to me, for I intend to write it. ~ <i>Winston Churchill</i></font></font><p></p>


created: 2003-12-09 15:16:57
subject: <b>I do not think that the Dreadlords are protected from the taint.</b>
body:
The DF Ashamen certainly aren't. When Rand mentions vleansing the taint in TPOD in front of Narishma, Morr, Hopwill, Dashiva and Torval, Torval was as hopeful and excited as Narishma, Morr and Hopwill, yet he is one of Taim's DFs. Dashiva looked poleaxed - shocked that Rand was considering how to do it and knowing what a blow it would be against the DO.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> Linda Sedai <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Proud member of the Embroiderer's Guild of the White Tower<br /><br /><b><font color="red">FAQ admin</font></b> </font>'cos the FAQ is where it's at.<br /><br /><b>Currently working on:</b> my 70th FAQ<p><a href="http://13depository.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">The thirteenth depository : A Wheel of Time blog</a></p><p></p>


created: 2003-12-10 16:51:11
subject: <b>i dunno</b>
body:
it said that there were Dreadlords at the fall of Manetheren(sp?) so it's possible<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Tel the ponderer of strange things <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wearer of the trilby <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> Blademaster <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-red.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-12-10 18:23:31
subject: <b>Agree on most</b>
body:
There are obviously bonds between the Forsaken and the DO. <br />I believe with them the DO is connected to your soul and can find &amp; resurrect it when you die.<br /><br />I also think that if you have the bond you normally can't sever it; you are bond to the DO forever (except apparently Asmo through Rand).<br /><br />It makes sense that these bonds are used on turned people too.<br /><br />Taim was also in my view protected from the Taint by the DO due such a bond (though I believe Ishy found and later taught him when he searched for the baby Dragon Reborn).<br /><br />Probably other Asha'man will get such a bond too and thus become Deadlords.


created: 2003-12-11 08:09:34
subject: <b>dashiva</b>
body:
why didn't rand notice any black cords linking darshiva to the dark one? i reckon when aginor died those cords were broken (in the same way a warder bond is broken by death) and when he was transmigrated into darshiva's body he wasn't given new protection. that may be why he comes across as a bit mad. he is suffering from the taint on saidin. i reckon the dark one did not give him new protection in his new body as punishment.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;An expert is someone who knows more and more about less and less.&quot;<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> <br />&quot;Seek knowledge from wherever you can, even unto China&quot;. Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-12-11 13:41:08
subject: <b>...</b>
body:
somone PM me if this gets a good discussion...<br /><br /><br />The REASON rand saw the wires around ishy, was because they were in Tel'aran'rhiod! Ishy visulaised it that way, when he draws upon the true power, and rand saw it because ishy beleived it was visible (y'all know how t'a'r works)<br /><br />and once he'd seen it on ishy, he guessed that asmo would have the same, and 'severed' him from the true power / the DO.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Seeking Aes Sedai for Bondage... uhh bonding. <br /><br />We rode on the winds of the rising storm,<br />We ran to the sounds of the thunder,<br />We danced among the lightning bolts,<br />and tore the world asunder.</font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-21 04:45:11
subject: <b>Good Call</b>
body:
The talk of cords and bonds, in my opinion, is irrelevant since it's only been seen by some.  Taim has never explained how he lasted so long or escaped Aes Sedai capture.  During Rand unruly capture, the Aes Sedai were thoughly distracted.  A bond between Taim and the DO gives reason for him getting a big head and calling himself M'Hael for light's sake!  I think Taim is a closet case Chosen ready to spread his wings.  Great theory.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Inflation would be much easier to endure if we lived in a third world country that made trade with coffee beans.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /> Lord of the Range <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> Right Hand of the Blade <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/myrddraal.gif" border="0" /> Duke of Boiling Water <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/myrddraal.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/crazy.gif" border="0" /> Culinary Ruffian <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/crazy.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-21 16:41:46
subject: <b>I like!</b>
body:
I just wanted to say that this is (in my opinion) the best Taim theory I have read. I have never agreed with him being one of the Forsaken, but we all know that he is a bad, bad man, so this is a great theory!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sister to Nossy<br />Shot swapper with a_fan <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br />Bonded to Phil Reborn and Sidious<br />&quot;Mommies are like wizards&quot; ~ CVH <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br />The fact that I don't agree with you in no way means I didn't understand you.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-09-15 17:11:39
subject: <b>I Like it....</b>
body:
This is a very intesting theory...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">One man holding fifty at a narrow passage. Not a bad way to die. Songs have been made about less.<br />     -Lord Ingtar</font><p></p>


created: 2003-12-09 08:26:48
subject: <b>Actually Rand got it right</b>
body:
In LoC, when Taim tells Rand he will win the Last Battle, Rand think that Prophecies merely set the conditions necessary.  In other words, it is like a checklist of requirements.  Draw Callandor from the Stone? Check!  Bound the nine moons to serve you? Check!  Born on Dragonmount? Check!  Okay, you're ready to fight the Dark One.  Don't forget to bleed!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


created: 2003-12-09 12:02:23
subject: <b>I agree with Cannoli</b>
body:
The prophecies have always been treated more like guidelines as to how to beat the DO, not hard in stone prophecies.  Suian and Moiraine wanted to guide Rand into fulfilling the prophecies when there was little chance of his failure, knowing(believing) that even if he fails one prophecy, he might not win TG.<br /><br />Very interesting disceration though.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Fyatuk Loth<br />Pope Consort to Grand Mistress Krista Sedai<br />Minister to the Way of What<br />Warder to Egwene Dreamwalker (donate WSe please)<br /><br />Currently stalking Belals Girl.<br /><br />WTF?</font><p></p>


created: 2003-12-09 13:42:41
subject: <b>Here's what Lanfear says in TSR</b>
body:
Rand has just told Lanfear that he is here to fulfill the Prophecies, and she tells him this:<br /><br /> &quot;You do not have to. Prophecy is no more than the sign of what people hope for. Fulfilling the Prophecies will only bind you to a path leading to Tarmon Gai'don and your death.&quot;<br /><br />Sounds to me that he can go in two different directions. He can choose not to fulfill them on his own, by willingly avoiding doing what they say he is supposed to do. Or, he can choose to try, and once he starts, it sets him on the path to keep on fulfilling them. The more Prophecies he fulfills, the tighter he is bound to that path.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2003-12-09 13:50:22
subject: <b>Like Pokemon</b>
body:
Gotta fulfill them all... except that maybe you don't.<br /><br />I liked the idea about increasing chaos serving to disrupt prophecy. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="blue"><img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /> <b>PROUDLY CELEBRATING 10 YEARS OF WOTMANIA!</b></font> <img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /><br /><br /><font color="purple"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <b>FAQ and WoT Admin</b></font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><font color="gray"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> <b>Part-time Philosopher of the Wheel</b> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /></font></font><p><a href="/wotmessageboard2showmessage.asp?MessageID=107993" target="_blank">New WoT quizzes!</a></p><p></p>


created: 2003-12-09 16:26:12
subject: <b>But is Lanfear telling the truth</b>
body:
The question may boil down to How were the Prophecies created. I saw them as forellings and since many of they have come true they have to share at least some similarities. Yes, Lanfear said that prophecies are just a sign of what people hope for, but she is a Foresaken, do we really trust her (especially since she is trying to manipulate Rand). <br /><br />If prophecies are like foretellings and Min's viewings (and basically all other related foretellings), it should be noted that (according to Min) trying to avoid the future is impossible. Of course this kind of creates the a contridiction with free will, but I think we have to accept that so far, no Prophecy and been wrong.<br /><br />How is Rand suppose to avoid the prophecies. Does he just say I am so not bleeding at Shayol Ghul. I don't doubt it. There seems to be no evidence (other than Lanfear's comment, which is quite suspect) that he can have any choice whether to fulfill them or not. <br /><br />I personally believe that the only way to prevent the pattern from weaving each step of the prophecy is to have an outside force (The Dark One) divert the path of the pattern. Of course the pattern wil try to continue on the path of the prophecies (through ta' veren, chance, etc.) but the more free the DO becomes and the more effect he has on the pattern, the more likely he will be to divert the pattern.


created: 2003-12-09 16:48:11
subject: <b>nice theory</b>
body:
its well proved and has good points, i like your idea about how the last battle by prophecy WILL be won, i never noticed that.  <br /><br />also, a little side comment, my dad says that if I (and wotmania people) studied at school the way we do WoT, i would be a great scholar<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Squilo Sedai <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />When you find yourself in danger<br />When your threatened by a stranger<br />When you feel your gonna take a 'licken<br />There is one thing you should do<br />When there is no one else to turn to<br />Caaaaaaall...for super-chicken<br /><br />GRAIN BREAK!!!</font><p></p>


created: 2003-12-09 22:38:28
subject: <b>I see it like this</b>
body:
The prophecies are a guide. Followiing them will win Tarmon Gaiden for Rand. However, I think the big rogue factor in this is not Rand or any other mortal, its the DO.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Evilest of the Evil Jawas.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-12-09 23:31:06
subject: <b>Don't assume so much...</b>
body:
Prophecy says &#8220;His blood on the rocks of Shayol Ghul, washing away the Shadow; sacrifice for man&#8217;s salvation.&#8221; There have been many debates surrounding this quote, question whether Rand will die, or whether his blood might be that of his children. Regardless of these debates this Prophecy clearly states that the Shadow will be washed way. There appears to be no other way to interpret it but that Rand will win the Last Battle (though whether it is the last battle or simply a continuation of the cycle is unclear).<br /><br />There are other ways to interperet this besides the two ways you've offered.<br />My personal spin:  Rand killing himself would be &quot;washing away the Shadow&quot;, and the shadow is none other than LTT.  LTT is not only the only man who can save humanity from the DO, but is also the source of the chaos that causes need for humanity to be saved.  Rand killing himself is therefor a &quot;sacrifice for man's salvation&quot;.<br />I'm not asking you to accept my theory, but... don't jump the gun and say that the prophecy tells of Rand's victory, because it doesn't.  There are a LOT of ways to interperet the prophecies.  On the same token, yours is a good idea too <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">He who knows nothing can understand nothing.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-12-10 02:59:55
subject: <b>Interpretation of Prophecy</b>
body:
The Prophecies that refer to Rand at the Last Battle include this one.<br /><br />Twice dawns the day when his blood is shed.<br />Once for mourning, once for birth. <br />Red on black, the Dragon's blood stains the rock of Shayol Ghul.<br />In the Pit of Doom shall his blood free men from the Shadow. <br /><br />Note it says MEN. Before Winter's Heart it could have been interpreted as the taint on saidin, however now I think it can only apply to mankind. I think the idea of destroying LewsTherin is interesting, but that wouldn't fit &quot;men&quot;<br />


created: 2003-12-10 05:51:19
subject: <b>What is prophesy?</b>
body:
I think that's the main question. We know from the creator that Foretellings, Finn answers and Min's viewings always are true. However, dreams to not have to come true, and there are even if/if dreams. I think the prophesies are a compilation of all Foretellings, dreams and true answers the post-breaking AS had, which, given the relative scarceness of Foretellings compared to dreams, consist mainly of 'might-be' dreams pointing the Dragon in the right direction, mingled with some 'has to come true' Foretellings. Which is which is for us to ask and for Jordan to know.


created: 2003-12-10 06:55:14
subject: <b>I</b>
body:
like your theory. I think it's very well thought out and I agree.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Red vs. Blue<br />&quot;Sorry It's pretty clear your not very popular around here and if I'm going to make any progress at all I cant be directly associated with you I'm sure you understand.&quot; Doc to Griff then Griff to Doc</font><p></p>


created: 2003-12-10 07:48:20
subject: <b>no title just read the body</b>
body:
I like your idea, it has goodness running from it's ears, but whilst reading it i remembered something from TGH.<br /><br />After the assault on Fal Dara, there was a part of the DARK PROPHECIES written on the walls of the dungeon.<br /><br />This would run in well with the guidelines/checklist theory.<br />Re-reading the dark prophecies spoken of above, it seems that some of the light and dark prophecies collide, though maybe not.<br />haha perhaps it'll come down to whoever completes more of the prophecy will win....or not.<br /><br />I'm sorry I'm quite tired and hope it makes some sort of sense (even if it hasn't much substance)


created: 2003-12-10 10:54:22
subject: <b>Map</b>
body:
I see prophecies as map for Dragon. Or if he follows them he has much better chances to survive long enough. For instance if he didn't conquer Stone or Illian or survived Rhuidean Rand would have been killed by one of his enemies. Or he can choose not to follow prophecies, BUT if he don't follow them he would have to pay the price.


created: 2003-12-10 10:57:05
subject: <b>I voted for your theory, actually</b>
body:
I wasn't disagreeing with it, at least not for the most part. In fact, I like it very much. <br /><br />Sure, we know Lanfear is a Forsaken, but, in this conversation, she was trying to win Rand's trust, and was probably telling the truth as she saw it. Maybe she is just wrong. Maybe free-will only extends to those not so tightly bound to have such a major influence on the Pattern.<br /><br />What if Rand had decided to stay in the Two Rivers? He would have been captured, taken to SG, and turned to the Shadow. What kind of twisting to the Pattern and Prophecies would that have done? He made the choice, but the DO's influence (that your theory talks about), takes over to change events.<br /><br />By the time Lanfear is saying these things to Rand, he is well on his way to being bound to follow the path to fulfilling the Prophecies anyway. He has already proclaimed himself at Falme, and obtained Callandor as well.<br /><br />Perhaps he could have chosen earlier not to follow the path he was meant to go down, or maybe not. At any rate, the outside influence would be to blame. (see? I agree).<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2003-12-10 18:09:25
subject: <b>A big misunderstanding</b>
body:
You must read all prophecies and then it becomes absolutely clear that Rand <i> shall </i> give his blood and thus <i> shall </i> defeat the Shadow.  <br /><i> If </i> his blood is on the rocks of SG, it <i> could </i> wash away the Shadow.<br /><br />The prophecies don't state that the Dragon Reborn will achieve that and win. On the contrary that is absolutely not clear. <br />But the good possibility is there. <br /><br />Therefore the people hope and pray that Rand will rescue them but can't be sure. <br /><br />Of course <i> we </i> know that Rand will win nevertheless from the &quot;prophecies&quot; (actually historical texts) from the 4th Age.


created: 2003-12-10 22:23:45
subject: <b>Aes Sedai</b>
body:
The fact that the Aes Sedai think that the Propheces are not certain does not prove anything. Min's Viewing always happen and they act the same way towords them.


created: 2003-12-11 07:01:29
subject: <b>Problem with the Pattern</b>
body:
<b>These are just two examples of many that the Dark One&#8217;s effect on the pattern may effect the outcomes of prophecy. Theoretically the closer to the Last Battle we get the more effect the Dark One will have on thus the prophecies will be less likely to come true (whether that means 99% or 1% who knows). Also it should be noted that more recent prophecies will have had less time to be effected by the Dark One and thus will be more likely to come true.</b><br /><br />The Creator designed the Pattern so that it should lead to the Light winning, but there's always the chance that the DO could win. For the DO to win, it has to change something in the Pattern so Prophecy fails. Your theory proved that, but for the wrong reasons.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Founding member of the ASI</b><br /><br /><b>TP ADMIN</b><br /><br /><b>Simon</b><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-12-11 13:17:57
subject: <b>Rand's Blood</b>
body:
Rand also has the blood of both Andor and the Aiel in him.  There is still the possibility that this is the blood that will be shed.  I still believe that Rand will die and Nyneave will raise him after three days.


created: 2003-12-11 14:07:02
subject: <b>Prophecy</b>
body:
<br />Regardless of all the prophecy in the world - the real problem is interpretation.  Muslims  all over the world argue and even shed blood over the different ways to interperate their prophecies.  Christians do the same.  The key to this argument is not whether the prophecy will come true.  It is - what does the prophecy mean?<br /><br />Min's trouble is that no one really understands the prophecy and while she's figured some of them out, even she isn't sure all the time.  It's hopeless to try to stop them - especially when we aren't sure we know what we're stopping.<br /><br />As far as Aes Sedai, especially Moraine and Suian running off to &quot;help&quot; the Dragon Reborn - even if they believe the prophecy the way they interperate it - its a sence of duty and meaning in life that is a natural thing for everyone - especially for over achieving young accepted.<br /><br />Wynn<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/egwene.gif" border="0" /> Feet spread to maintain balance on a windy deck <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-12-12 04:55:33
subject: <b>About &quot;Prophecy&quot;</b>
body:
I'm sorry I don't have quotes or page numbers, but I currently only have WH (borrowed the rest).<br /><br />In this theory, Sir Lancelittle said that there are 5 types of &quot;Prophecy,&quot; then included Prophecy as one of them.  We can be fairly sure these didn't come from Min type viewings, but if all of the prophecies had to come from somewhere, they would not be a category by themselves (unless the Creator broke his own word and told someone).<br /><br />When Egwene is in the Waste learning from the Wise Ones, they tell her that Dreams don't always come true.  They are possible ways the future could turn out.  Whether they are cut and dried, saying this WILL happen, or have multiple possible endings, they are all iffy.<br /><br />In TSR, Min had a viewing with two possible outcomes regarding (prospectively) whether Gawyn would support Egwene as Amyrlin or not.  This was the first time this had ever happened.<br /><br />Those are just a few nitpicks.  Only the one about Min really has a bearing on what you are saying here.  It could be evidence that you're on the right track.  I'm still not sure.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Yes, Cuban B...<br /><br />I crashed my van into Jesus!<br /><br />If you try to fail, and succeed, which have you done?</font><p></p>


created: 2003-12-12 18:55:45
subject: <b>I can't think of a good title</b>
body:
Well,I used the word prophecy to describe them all cause I couldn't find a better word<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Yes I agree that the prophecies of the Dragon are probably mostly foretellings but we don't know for sure so I mentioned them seperately. <br /><br />My response to the dream &quot;ifs&quot; is that whenever we have a dream with an &quot;if&quot; in it the dreamer always recognizes the if. So far we have not seen a dream that hasn't come true and all the if dreams have been fulfilled one way or another (if the if happens the outcome happens). Foretellings on the other hand (and 'finn predictions) appear to be absolute. There are no ifs and they always seem to come true. My point is thatthe prophecies don't say &quot;If Rand happens to feel like speaking at the Golden Bowl the Aiel will be broken by the leaf.&quot; Instead they say he WILL break the Aiel with the leaf; there is no if involved. The implications in my mind, therefore, is since he prophecies don't say &quot;if&quot; they are absolute Truths within the framework of the pattern. Thus in order for a prophecy to be wrong, you need a force outside the pattern.<br /><br />Hope that clarifies.


created: 2003-12-13 11:27:25
subject: <b>As Etzel stated-</b>
body:
we have evidence of the LB being won, by the writings of the 4th Age (Loyal`s book, perhaps?).<br /><br />The DO will not distort the Pattern to such an extent, that It will win.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2005-07-04 14:54:52
subject: <b>My humble opinion</b>
body:
you stated in the theory that Suian and Moiraine acted to find the dragon, and that he wouldent have been found if they hadnt looked for him. of course it is possible for him not to have been found and the shadow taking over, but the problem with that is that while there is the possibility, it will not happen, except maby in the mirror worlds that show everything as it could have been. <br /><br />i mean think about it this way, in the begining of book three, when they are in the dragon's camp, the tinker comes and min sees the view of her dying a violent death. now it is always possible that she could have fought the trolloc and saved her self, or she could have left just before the invasion of the trollocs, but she didn't. The fact that Suian and Moiraine went looking for hem was just something that happened for the propheseys to be fufilled, but the fact that you should consider is the fact, that although they could have not gone looking for the dragon, they did, which happens to fufill the prophesy that is there, i mean the prophesy itself has to do with the fufilling of the prophesy. If noone knew the prophesys, than noone whould follow him, so it is some thing like the acts of people that they think is their own free will is acully compleatly deternmined by the age lace. it dosent matter what could have happend, it only matters what did happen. if only one thing went different the whole thing could have not happened, but everything did happen, so it does work, and things will continue to happen, because no matter what is possible, only one thing can happen, and that is what the prophesy's say will happen<br /><br />Sorry if you dont understand that, i am trying to write an abstract theory down, and it is somewhat hard to explain, sorry if someone already said that, but it didn't look as though anyone did.


created: 2005-09-02 23:28:00
subject: <b>It said somewhere</b>
body:
that prophecy is what MUST happen, not What WILL happen<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>It's not apples and oranges, but no one paying attention could compare these apples without noticing: <br />(a) one is 12 times bigger and <br />(b) both of them are rutabagas.</i></font><p></p>


created: 2007-07-04 01:43:09
subject: <b>extrapolating prophecy</b>
body:
I think it would be impossible for a prophecy not to happen.<br />prophecy is made by extrapolating the wave of the WoT.<br />Though things may not happen the way they think, the wave will still pass over the same nodes, and thus give the same results.<br />Refer to my theory on Ta'veren for the balance of the power wave.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Most Magnificent Master of Metaphors<br />&quot;Take life by the horns. Then when its thrashing around--castrate it!&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2008-08-29 00:50:47
subject: <b>Here we go...</b>
body:
I am by no means an academic but i will give this my best shot....if someone already said this i'm sorry but its late and i'm too lazy to read through 20 some comments...I agree in part that the prophecies are more like guidelines but not exactly like that...I see them as a means to an end.<br /><br />Meaning if he fulfills the prophecies his destiny will come to pass and he will win Tarmon Gaidon. However, he has the option of not completing the prophecies in which case he will lose Tarmon Gaidon and the DO will unravel the pattern. <br /><br />That is why the Aes Sedai like Moraine tried to guide him to fulfill the prophecies...they dont know if the outcome will be certain victory if he completes them but they know the outcome is certain defeat if he doesnt complete them. <br /><br />So to sum it all up he has the choice NOT to do the prophecies however the outcome will almost certainly be defeat whereas if he DOES do them they have a chance for victory.<br /><br />just my 2 cents


created: 2003-12-09 07:00:26
subject: <b>The Aiel? Snotty? Hey!</b>
body:
This is a nice hypothesis<br />I did too wonder at the subject of what can be considered true or false and this sums it up.<br />Thumbs Up!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="orange"><i>She bit the bowl clean off the spoon<br />http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8uozGujfdS0&amp;feature=related</i> <br /></font><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-12-09 08:43:20
subject: <b>Bwaha</b>
body:
<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" />Smashing...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">~~Da'Tsang!<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/w00t.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" />&quot;Lasta Lalaithamin sii' kela!&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> Smocking...<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-12-09 08:51:52
subject: <b>not true</b>
body:
Hi,<br /><br />I don't think it's _the_ reason, but as I thought it's fun, I voted true.<br /><br />But, I think that the more &quot;good&quot; Aes Seda&#239; the women are, the more annoying they are.<br />By exemple: Egwene.<br /><br />P'tit Dino


created: 2003-12-09 11:54:46
subject: <b>That's the way I see it</b>
body:
I know when I start looking for clues in the dialogue of AS, and trying to determine who's BA, it's only the statements that matter. Of course, trying to catch anything out of place is another story. Especially when their statements are scattered out over ten books.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2003-12-09 12:08:44
subject: <b>Sounds good</b>
body:
Sounds good to me - we needed an analysis like that.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font face="Century Gothic,Arial"><font color="#FF0000">F</font><font color="#FF1500">l</font><font color="#FF2B00">i</font><font color="#FF4000">p</font><font color="#FF5500">p</font><font color="#FF6B00">i</font><font color="#FF8000">t</font><font color="#FF8000"> </font><font color="#FF9200">~</font><font color="#FFA400"> </font><font color="#FFB600">F</font><font color="#FFC900">l</font><font color="#FFDB00">i</font><font color="#FFED00">p</font><font color="#FFFF00">p</font><font color="#FFFF00">i</font><font color="#DBFF00">t</font><font color="#B6FF00"> </font><font color="#92FF00">~</font><font color="#6DFF00"> </font><font color="#49FF00">F</font><font color="#24FF00">l</font><font color="#00FF00">i</font><font color="#00FF00">p</font><font color="#01DB24">p</font><font color="#00B649">i</font><font color="#00926D">t</font><font color="#006D92"> </font><font color="#0049B6">~</font><font color="#0024DB"> </font><font color="#0000FF">F</font><font color="#0000FF">l</font><font color="#2400FF">i</font><font color="#4900FF">p</font><font color="#6D00FF">p</font><font color="#9200FF">i</font><font color="#B600FF">t</font><font color="#DB00FF"> </font><font color="#FF00FF">~</font><font color="#FF00FF"> </font><font color="#ED00ED">F</font><font color="#DA01DA">l</font><font color="#C800C8">i</font><font color="#B600B6">p</font><font color="#A400A4">p</font><font color="#910091">i</font><font color="#7F007F">t</font></font><br /><font face="Century Gothic,Arial">History will be kind to me, for I intend to write it. ~ <i>Winston Churchill</i></font></font><p></p>


created: 2003-12-09 18:08:21
subject: <b>heh</b>
body:
Interesting breakdown of language.  I enjoyed reading that section.<br /><br />I am not quite sure I agree with the idea that the Oath not to lie has effected all women's speach, though.  I can think of only one other character besides an AS who goes out of their way not to lie while dissembling at the same time.  HIS name is Asuwana.  As far as you assertion that women use less statements and more commands, etc..  I don't see any evidence of it.  <br /><br />The real problem with many people thinking the women are snotty, IMHO, lies not with the women but with the readers.  Women leaders are still too much of an oddity in our culture.  They are easily raised on pedastels and just as easily cast down to lower depths.  They are assumed to be perfect angles until they are revealed to be human at which time they are thought to become demons.  Nothing about how society treats women makes sense.  How people feel about WoT women is only the tip of the iceberg.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">RabidWombat<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> Let the Lord of Rambling Thoughts rule <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> Proud owner of a 2 star rating! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /> Someone stole all my cookies <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-12-09 22:42:50
subject: <b>Regarding the oaths theory</b>
body:
It should be mentioned that among the main characters in the books, the only ones actually bound by the oath are Moiraine (RIP, dont go there) and Cadsuane. I'm probably missing someone but yea. There all just jerks with annoying personallities. The only ones I can tolerate are Min, Brigette, and Moiraine (RIP).<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Evilest of the Evil Jawas.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-12-09 23:10:58
subject: <b>To be honest,</b>
body:
I was expecting this theory to be put into the humorous theories catagory. I at least intended it as such. I guess my sense of humor isn't the same as the admins.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Bob L. Sedai (a.k.a. Luge) <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /><br />Fighting off the Taint - <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tinfoilhat.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" />Thanks given to Burr, the ever-helpful theory critic<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />And to Light in the Night, fellow theorist extraordinaire<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Voted Best Screenname 1 (one) years in a row.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-12-10 08:12:17
subject: <b>there will never be a title</b>
body:
An enjoyable read, although I dont agree with ALL westlandian women becoming that way, just AS...perhaps having the OP at your fingertips have something to do with how they talk to others aswell.<br /><br />p.s I dont feel that all WOT women are annoying, I just can't stand Egwene, Elayne and Nynaeve. The thought of Egwene, Elayne and Nynaeve impossibly being interpretted as &quot;His blood on the rocks of Shayol Ghul&quot; brings such ecstacy you wouldnt believe.<br /><br />


created: 2003-12-10 18:29:26
body: I agree wholeheartedly with some of the other comments, was a funny read.
subject:
<b>Good analysis! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /></b>


created: 2003-12-10 20:55:10
subject: <b>I dont like the women</b>
body:
I think there all stupid, bitchy, women period.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Red vs. Blue<br />&quot;Sorry It's pretty clear your not very popular around here and if I'm going to make any progress at all I cant be directly associated with you I'm sure you understand.&quot; Doc to Griff then Griff to Doc</font><p></p>


created: 2003-12-11 20:13:34
subject: <b>ouch</b>
body:
Let's not make sweeping statements that ALL Randland women are &lt;&lt;expletive deleted&gt;&gt;. They play a significant role in the series, and their functions include challenging the menfolk to be stronger--you know, the whole bit about suffering building character and all that. <br /><br />As for the theory... it was great! Why wasn't it in the Humorous Theories section? I almost bust a gut laughing... although the bits about the components of language were impressively outlined and applied to the theory. Clap! Clap! I voted yes because of the sheer entertainment value. <br /><br />And those Aiel and Sea Folk ARE snotty. Some day a theory must be constructed to explain this phenomenon.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/clap.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lan.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/clap.gif" border="0" /><br />Nynaeve and Lan!<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-12-12 12:04:16
subject:
<b>A good tongue-in-cheek   <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /></b>

body:
The women in the series are good characters.<br /><br />The comments made above by RabidWombat are right on the money.  Far too many men, IMO, consider women as subordinates. Any strong woman seems to be a threat to the men`s masculinity.  What does that say about them? Think about it.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2005-01-13 14:42:55
subject: <b>That Darn Oath!</b>
body:
all AS are annoying and the only charactar who seems to be able to annoy them is matt, go matt. I think the problem is that no one trusts anyone.<br />


created: 2005-11-15 19:41:48
subject: <b>Bravo</b>
body:
i was wondering y it wasnt under humorus<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>It's not apples and oranges, but no one paying attention could compare these apples without noticing: <br />(a) one is 12 times bigger and <br />(b) both of them are rutabagas.</i></font><p></p>


created: 2007-04-19 22:39:54
subject: <b>re: That Darn Oath!</b>
body:
Good work! Although you've stated a previously recognised turth about the english language, many people outside an English major would not realise how easy the Aes Sedai could actually 'lie'. Have you considered the possibility of Unspeak in your language analysis?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">When one person suffers from a delusion it is called 'insanity'; When many people suffer from a delusion it is called 'religion'</font><p></p>


created: 2003-12-10 13:57:52
subject: <b>Wishy Washy</b>
body:
Makes a lot of sense, till it comes to the raken part.  Why the Raken, and how?  <br />Are they going to keep Egwene perched upon the wall to just be picked up?  <br />Is the Raken going to pass the walls of the White Tower unharmed, its rider de-board and then go on some search and rescue mission for Egwene?<br /><br />I think any sort of Seanchan rescue might be quite coincidental.  Perhaps as part of an attack.  Now that Egwene has turned the chain to cuendillar and blocked the harbor, perhaps the Seanchan will take advantage of this opportunity as well.  Who knows?  I haven't really explored this possibility much, but the Raken rescue didn't seem to follow the earlier, sounder parts of the theory.<br /><br />Nice job overall though.<br /><br />


created: 2003-12-10 14:34:17
subject: <b>I dont see</b>
body:
That the fact Egwene might have seen a raken means that a raken is going to be used to rescue her. It is well thought out, and possible, but not overwhelming in the evidence department.


created: 2003-12-10 15:52:48
subject: <b>hmm</b>
body:
I think it'll involve a raken too.  Karede knows about the plan at the White Tower, and Mat knows Egwene was headed there.  It wouldn't be a huge stretch for Tuon to send someone there if she cares enough about Mat by then to maybe help out his friend.<br /><br />I think the whole attack will be raken landing on top of the tower.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Wartherded by Phil Reborn<br /><br />CW</font><p></p>


created: 2003-12-10 19:17:20
subject: <b>Perhaps...</b>
body:
...the two ravens seen refer to the dream of the two ravens settling into Matrim's shoulders?  Then Tuon would be a much more likely candidate as the woman who stands with Egwene when confronting Rand; this also places Eaganin as the more likely rescuer.  <br /><br />


created: 2003-12-10 20:05:14
subject: <b>Sorry but I don't agree.</b>
body:
Sure this theory could be correct on many points, I don't necessarily agree with the conclusion. <br /><br />A few points. <br /><br />- The steep cliff is probably symbolic.<br /><br />-The sword on her rescuers back may also be symbolic.<br /><br />-Tuon, being able to channel, will probably need to make allies with the aes sedai to take the crystal throne.<br /><br />- Egwene has a gream of a golden hawk reaching out to touch her and they are linked somehow. The golden Hawk can only be a Hawkwing.<br /><br />-The face of egwenes rescuer is not clear.<br /><br />My conclusion from these points is that at some stage Tuon will be battling for her own survival at a moment that Egwene is also in trouble and offers friendship. (I think Jordan would also enjoy making Mats wife good friends with one of the girls who is always ruining his fun!)<br /><br />I also believe these events will take place after Egwene is rescued from her current predicament. I think that Gawyn will be the rescuer in the near future, fulfilling some of the other prophises (the falling axe and Gawyn kneeling).


created: 2003-12-10 20:14:59
subject: <b>Well thought out and written Etzel</b>
body:
However, the one part I have doubts about is Chuilen being the rescuer. I can envision the use of raken quite easily, but sending a non-channeler into the WT, wouldn't have much of a chance to get anywhere before being caught. Unless it was perhaps Mat with his medallion.<br /><br />Besides, the rescue you describe might be too literal. Egwene has been wanting to get to the WT all this time, and now she is there. She will want to be rescued from her captors, true. But, she also wants to be Amyrlin, and she must be inside the WT to accomplish that. I actually have a feeling that RJ is going to use the fact she is inside to her advantage somehow. <br /><br />I also envision this attack on the Tower is taking place at the same time Rand is negotiating with the Seanchan. Whatever trickery Jordan has in mind will be resolved quickly, IMO. As soon as the treaty is signed, the first order of business will be to stop the attack. This could lead to Tuon getting there rather quickly to put an end to it. Just my opinion.<br /><br />At any rate, I liked it. The lack of real conclusive evidence reduces us all to educated guesses on how it will actually happen.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2003-12-10 23:33:48
subject: <b>Re:Egwene's flying rescue</b>
body:
Why would the Seanchan behead Egwene. It seems to me that they would make her a damame.<br /><br />Plus the face changing is most likly because Egwene doesn't know the person. I seem to recall Min's Viewing about her, Elayne, and Aviendha all falling in love with Rand. She only reconized herself because she didn't know the others at that time.


created: 2003-12-11 01:58:36
subject: <b>i have a different idea</b>
body:
I think the two ravens is symbolic of Mat. remember, Odin has two ravens which collect information for him, and Mat is referred to as Odin. I think it is Mat that will rescue her, though I'm not sure how. Maybe Tuon will manage to give Mat a Raken so he can fly in there and snag Egwene. It doesn't make sense to send a channeler in there, because if they channel once without a good reason, they will be discovered.<br />If they send a non-channeler without Mat's protection, they are a sitting duck. Thus, Mat, symbolized by the two ravens, will be in fact the one to rescue Egwene.<br /><br />I also have another theory. I think Egwene knew before she got captured that she would if she went. I think she intentionally went to not only cuendellize the harbor chains, but to purposely get captured.


created: 2003-12-11 04:42:06
subject: <b>Response</b>
body:
To WindbitersFinger,<br /><br /><b> Makes a lot of sense, till it comes to the raken part. Why the Raken, and how? <br />Are they going to keep Egwene perched upon the wall to just be picked up? <br />Is the Raken going to pass the walls of the White Tower unharmed, its rider de-board and then go on some search and rescue mission for Egwene? </b><br /><br />It is probably generally accepted that the Seanchan will attack the WT with rakens and landing on the top of it.<br /><br />Why not test this scenario by sending one flier on a rescue mission?<br />In the cover of a dark night it should be possible to reach the WT undetected. The Aes Sedai certainly don't expect an attack from the air. <br /><br />Besides, it's a story and in a story it is even more likely that people master difficult tasks.<br /><br /><b> I think any sort of Seanchan rescue might be quite coincidental. Perhaps as part of an attack. Now that Egwene has turned the chain to cuendillar and blocked the harbor, perhaps the Seanchan will take advantage of this opportunity as well. Who knows? I haven't really explored this possibility much, but the Raken rescue didn't seem to follow the earlier, sounder parts of the theory. </b><br /><br />As I said the different dreams indicate that Egwene will be rescued before the attack and that the attack has nothing to do with her rescue.<br /><br /><br />To tydogg,<br /><br /><b> That the fact Egwene might have seen a raken means that a raken is going to be used to rescue her. It is well thought out, and possible, but not overwhelming in the evidence department. </b><br /><br />Well, if you actually read the theory you will find that more points support my view, not only that Egwene saw a raken... <br />E.g. the interpretation of the dreams or who leads the attack on the WT. <br /><br /><br />To Deadsy,<br /><br /><b> I think it'll involve a raken too. Karede knows about the plan at the White Tower, and Mat knows Egwene was headed there. It wouldn't be a huge stretch for Tuon to send someone there if she cares enough about Mat by then to maybe help out his friend.<br /><br />I think the whole attack will be raken landing on top of the tower. </b><br /><br />But whom shall Tuon (or rather RJ) send? <br />Isn't it more likely that someone will be send whom we already know as a female raken flier like Chulein and that she stays with the Seanchan army.<br /><br />Besides, no one in Mat's party knows that Egwene is captured.<br /><br /><br />To Madrogran,<br /><br /><b> the two ravens seen refer to the dream of the two ravens settling into Matrim's shoulders? Then Tuon would be a much more likely candidate as the woman who stands with Egwene when confronting Rand; this also places Eaganin as the more likely rescuer. </b><br /><br />As Egwene said the two ravens are the Seanchan army.<br /><br />I also said that Tuon is probably the woman who stands with Egwene but it's also clear that this woman is <i> not </i> the woman who rescues Egwene.<br /><br /> <br />To JAY JAY,<br /><br /><b> My conclusion from these points is that at some stage Tuon will be battling for her own survival at a moment that Egwene is also in trouble and offers friendship. (I think Jordan would also enjoy making Mats wife good friends with one of the girls who is always ruining his fun!) </b><br /><br />Egwene knows Tuon from another dream. <br />She says that the Seanchan woman who rescues her is someone else.<br /><br /><br />To Light in the Night,<br /><br /><b> However, the one part I have doubts about is Chuilen being the rescuer. I can envision the use of raken quite easily, but sending a non-channeler into the WT, wouldn't have much of a chance to get anywhere before being caught. Unless it was perhaps Mat with his medallion. </b><br /><br />On the other hand you can't send damane &amp; sul'dam &amp; raken fliers because then the risk of being dicovered raises, especially since woman can feel the OP.<br /><br />The rescue must be very stealthy and I doubt that an Aes Sedai would recognize a Seanchan flier.  <br /><br /><b> Besides, the rescue you describe might be too literal. Egwene has been wanting to get to the WT all this time, and now she is there. She will want to be rescued from her captors, true. But, she also wants to be Amyrlin, and she must be inside the WT to accomplish that. I actually have a feeling that RJ is going to use the fact she is inside to her advantage somehow. </b> <br /><br />Egwene herself knows that a Seanchan woman will rescue her.<br />At the moment she is in trouble.<br />I also believe that Egwene will quite soon be in the WT again and of course become Amyrlin. But rand's and Mat's plots will influence that. <br /><br />First Egwene will be in the hands of the Seanchan and Gawyn will probably do something to save her life there.<br /><br /><b> I also envision this attack on the Tower is taking place at the same time Rand is negotiating with the Seanchan. Whatever trickery Jordan has in mind will be resolved quickly, IMO. As soon as the treaty is signed, the first order of business will be to stop the attack. This could lead to Tuon getting there rather quickly to put an end to it. Just my opinion. </b><br /><br />I agree that the meeting with the Seanchan will become very important, also for Egwene. <br />But not too soon because Rand will almost certainly be captured first.<br /><br />Later Tuon can quickly go to the WT and maybe confront Rand. <br />But as said several times, the woman who rescues Egwene can't be Tuon. <br /><br /><b> At any rate, I liked it. The lack of real conclusive evidence reduces us all to educated guesses on how it will actually happen. </b><br /><br />Thanks, we will see.<br /><br /><br />To loial01, <br /><br /><b> Why would the Seanchan behead Egwene. It seems to me that they would make her a damame. </b><br /><br />Maybe a Shadow plot by Suroth or Semirhage. <br />In any case, the prophecies of Egwene in danger of life and Gawyn either saving her or breaking her neck indicate that.<br /><br /><b> Plus the face changing is most likly because Egwene doesn't know the person. I seem to recall Min's Viewing about her, Elayne, and Aviendha all falling in love with Rand. She only reconized herself because she didn't know the others at that time. </b><br /><br />No, it's a difference between not recognizing someone and a wavering face. <br /><br /><br />To cleantoe,<br /><br /><b> I think the two ravens is symbolic of Mat. remember, Odin has two ravens which collect information for him, and Mat is referred to as Odin. I think it is Mat that will rescue her, though I'm not sure how. Maybe Tuon will manage to give Mat a Raken so he can fly in there and snag Egwene. It doesn't make sense to send a channeler in there, because if they channel once without a good reason, they will be discovered.<br />If they send a non-channeler without Mat's protection, they are a sitting duck. Thus, Mat, symbolized by the two ravens, will be in fact the one to rescue Egwene. </b><br /><br />No, a Seanchan woman will rescue Egwene and the ravens symbolize the Seanchan army.<br /><br /><b> I also have another theory. I think Egwene knew before she got captured that she would if she went. I think she intentionally went to not only cuendellize the harbor chains, but to purposely get captured. </b><br /><br />No, Egwene's POV clearly shows that she was surprised. <br />


created: 2003-12-11 06:02:50
subject: <b>How could Egwene...</b>
body:
not recognize a raken? She's been a Seanchan prisoner for months! She wouldn't mistake a raken for a bat, that's totally incredible. <br /><br />I don't think the Seanchan are quite ready yet for an attack on the White Tower, if you just think about the organisation of it all there is no way they could organise an all-out attack (the only sort of attack that would make sense from a military point of view) in the short time between the POV of the general and Egwene's capture. Especially as they have recently suffered their biggest defeat in centuries from Rands forces and also have to face internal struggle.


created: 2003-12-11 09:58:42
subject: <b>Why Egwene didn't recognize the raken</b>
body:
First, it's absolutely not unusual that you confuse someone or something you know with someone/something else.<br /><br />In Egwene's case it is night and thus dark. <br />She is in stress because of her difficult and dangerous task.  <br /><br />Suddenly, only for a short moment, Egwene glimpses at something that flashes across the moon; that means it is very far away. <br />First Egwene believes that it is a Draghkar but then she decides it was a bat. <br />That shows she is not sure about it, especially the size of the creature.<br /><br />It's not surprising that Egwene doesn't think of a raken because she would never expect that there are rakens (i.e. Seanchan) in the near.<br />But we know that the Seanchan already plan for some time to attack the WT, and that the person who planned this attack is something like the Commander of the Seanchan Air Force.<br /><br />Therefore it is very likely that the bat was actually a raken.


created: 2003-12-11 13:14:10
subject: <b>They can be ready</b>
body:
It's been almost 3 months since the Seanchan saw the &quot;Aes Sedai weapon&quot; so they could have been planning it all that time.<br /><br />I doubt they're going to be doing any of it on the ground.  That would require 4 more books just to get them that far north because they'd have to go through Murandy and Andor.  and I doubt Rand would let them just plow through more countries without trying to stop them.  So it must be an all air attack, unless they learn travelling (and I don't think they will).  Other evidence of this is that when Mor saw Karede's map of Tar Valon, the first thing he said was &quot;You are involved in Lord Yulan&#8217;s plans, Banner-General Karede?&quot;   Yulan is the air captain.<br /><br />Karede left 18 days before Egwene was captured.  Tar Valon is about 2,600 miles from Ebou Dar.   To'raken (the big kind) can move 200 miles in a day and carry at least 1,000 pounds.  So it would only take 13 days for to'raken to get to Tar Valon.  That gives 5 more days to use whatever suggestions Karede gave them.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Wartherded by Phil Reborn<br /><br />CW</font><p></p>


created: 2003-12-11 14:28:35
subject: <b>Fruit stations</b>
body:
To'raken need something to eat so most of that 1000 pounds would be needed to keep them alive. For instance if weight of pilot is 100 pounds that would leave only 900 pounds for load. Or about 70 pounds per day (900/13). Those beasts are herbivores and huge so I think that would not be enough to keep them healthy. Or they can not even carry food (for them and their pilot) they would need to fly that 13 days. So they would have to have a base much closer to WT to launch that attac. Naturally assuming that there aren't any fruit stations for To'raken<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br />Besides there are limited number of available *raken so task force they could carry would be outnumbered and outgunned by their enemies.


created: 2003-12-11 14:29:38
subject: <b>bla</b>
body:
The main reason I don't think it will be Chulein is because she doesn't know anyone who can influence her opinion on damane.  I still think it could be her though... but it will take more writing on RJ for Tuon or someone to explain why she's helping a dog.   I'm more for it being Egeanin, or someone who is friends with one of Egwene's friends.   Egeanin carried a sword, the symbol above her chapters is a sword and an anchor, and she has a cloak pin that's a sword.  Nynaeve made a comment. (this isn't evidence, it will just make it kind of funny if it's her):   &quot;It was not as if Egwene need ever meet the Seanchan woman. Burn that woman! Burn Egeanin to ash!&quot;<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Wartherded by Phil Reborn<br /><br />CW</font><p></p>


created: 2003-12-11 14:42:42
subject: <b>to'raken</b>
body:
Good point on there not being a ton of them.  I have read some really good ideas on how they can do well in this with few people though.  For instance, Elaida is the only person who uses the upper levels, and people don't visit her unless they're summoned.  They can hang out near the top and probably not even be noticed, and snatch people one at a time and move downward.<br /><br /><br />The &quot;one thousand pounds or more&quot; is in addition to the pilot.<br /><br />Rakens are omnivores according to the guide.  They could have a couple to'raken carrying only food, and on a couple of the stops they could probably hunt/gather for food.  (I don't think it takes the entire day to go the 200 miles, they just need to rest when they're carrying a lot of weight.)   I doubt they're having to ship all of the food they can eat from Seanchan.. so I think there must be local stuff they can eat.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Wartherded by Phil Reborn<br /><br />CW</font><p></p>


created: 2003-12-11 15:52:11
subject: <b>1 thing to add</b>
body:
They can fly twice as fast as horses run.  That would be 70mph I think (not sure).  With the big loads they could probably go 40mph.  It would only take 5 hours to go the 200 miles then.  That would give them plenty of time to hunt or gather food, and from the sky they can find places to land that are far from anyone who might see them.  Even if anyone did see them, they'd think they were shadowspawn and probably wouldn't want to get any closer.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Wartherded by Phil Reborn<br /><br />CW</font><p></p>


created: 2003-12-11 17:03:49
subject: <b>Dreams</b>
body:
Egwene has three dreams concerning seanchan women.<br /><br />1 Mat wrestling with one.<br /><br />2 One with her confronting Rand.<br /><br />3 The woman who rescues her FACE IS UNCLEAR.<br /><br /><br />The woman who rescues her could be either of the two women in the other dreams. Egwene cannot see her face clearly. She only knows she's seanchan because of her accent.<br /><br />Just because a character has a brief PoV does not mean they are going to be a major character.<br /><br />Don't get me wrong I don't think your theory is that bad. I just have to ask the question why would a raken rider be conCerned about reaching the top?<br /><br />The dream about the golden hawk reaching out to touch Egwene I believe is about a Hawkwing (who's sign is a golden hawk). I doubt Berelain is going to become buddies with Egwene. When you put the dream about the golden hawk in the picture with a seanchan woman I think you can only come to the conclusion the seanchan woman, who's face is unclear is, Tuon.


created: 2003-12-11 17:36:01
subject: <b>Seanchan women</b>
body:
<b> The woman who rescues her could be either of the two women in the other dreams. Egwene cannot see her face clearly. She only knows she's seanchan because of her accent. </b><br /><br />Egwene only says that the face is wavering and never settles clearly. That doesn't mean that Egwene can't differ this woman from the woman in her other dreams. <br />Egwene's thoughts immediately after this dream show that she has a hunch how the face looks like (i.e. not like the Seanchan woman she saw in her other dreams). <br /><br />Besides you can also recognize a person by the figure or hair, and we know that Tuon looks rather boyish with no hair/short hair. <br /><br /><b> Just because a character has a brief PoV does not mean they are going to be a major character. </b><br /><br />I don't say or think that Chulein will become a mayor character. <br />But it's typical for RJ to bring such characters back into the story. <br /><br /><b> Don't get me wrong I don't think your theory is that bad. I just have to ask the question why would a raken rider be conCerned about reaching the top? </b><br /><br />Because the raken waits on the top. <br />The rider has the order to free Egwene and bring her to the Seanchan camp.<br /><br /><b> The dream about the golden hawk reaching out to touch Egwene I believe is about a Hawkwing (who's sign is a golden hawk). I doubt Berelain is going to become buddies with Egwene. When you put the dream about the golden hawk in the picture with a seanchan woman I think you can only come to the conclusion the seanchan woman, who's face is unclear is, Tuon. </b><br /><br />No, because there are two Seanchan women. <br />One in the dreams before CoT (Tuon) and one in the dream in CoT (Chulein). <br />Tuon will become connected to Egwene but she won't rescue her.


created: 2003-12-11 23:27:45
subject: <b>2 Cents worth</b>
body:
Gawyn will save Egwene (for god's sake please kill her)she will reunite the Tower (stronger then ever with remnants cast out and scorned)<br /><br />Tuon's husband will save the White Tower when the war begins.<br /><br />Look at the map, the White Tower is the next target after the borderlanders. Mat rallying the forces of the light in Illian suggest the Last Battle will see the Shadow sweep down to as far as Caemlyn (remember Egwene's accepted test)


created: 2003-12-12 05:24:43
subject: <b>I had to vote no</b>
body:
First, you are linking the symbolism from two dreams.  Only the interpretations can be linked.  <br /><br />In addition, there could be several women (shifting face), and the escape could happen during the attack because Egwene uses the confusion to get out of her cell.  <br /><br />On top of that, I don't think there's enough info yet to determine the chronological order.  Granted, RJ seems to do everything for a reason.  However, we have had prophecies from several books back that have yet to be fulfilled mixed in with prophecies that came true shortly after they were unvieled.  The order they are revieled in CoT is not concrete enough for me to grant adherence.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Yes, Cuban B...<br /><br />I crashed my van into Jesus!<br /><br />If you try to fail, and succeed, which have you done?</font><p></p>


created: 2003-12-12 06:50:45
subject: <b>i still think...</b>
body:
i STILL think Egwene knew she was gonna get captured. from her PoV, we can see that she was clearly surprised as to how she got caught. even if you are expecting something, you still get surprised by its suddeness, especially if you don't know how something will occur.<br />for instance, take this example. i know for a fact that if i leave the building, i will get mugged. but i don't know when or how i will get mugged. i don't know if someone will jump at me from the shadows or just approach. regardless, no matter how i conditiion myself, i will still be startled.<br />i stand by my idea that Egwene expected to be captured; after all it's highly stupid and naive to think someone isn't guarding the chain. egwene had to know someone was gonna watch over it, and she had to do it cause she was the fastest one, and if someone was gonnna get caught, might as well be the person who could put the chain down the fastest.


created: 2003-12-12 06:52:59
subject: <b>To Soulblinder</b>
body:
<b> First, you are linking the symbolism from two dreams. Only the interpretations can be linked. </b><br /><br />We also see e.g. that the wolf is always a symbol for Perrin's ability in all of Egwene's dreams.<br /><br />Therefore we can conclude that a certain symbol in a dream means the same in another dream. <br /><br />Plus, that different symbols normally mean different things (e.g. the two ravens are the Seanchan army thus the Seanchan woman with the sword doesn't stand for this).<br /> <br /><b> In addition, there could be several women (shifting face), and the escape could happen during the attack because Egwene uses the confusion to get out of her cell. </b><br /><br />Since only the face is wavering (not the whole body or the sword or a changing voice) it's quite clear that it's only one woman. <br />The face of this woman has something special so that you sometimes can't recognize the face, like a wind-scarf.<br /><br />That Egwene has two dreams shows that these are two separated events. <br />The saving doesn't only happen on the occasion of the attack.<br /><br /><b> On top of that, I don't think there's enough info yet to determine the chronological order. Granted, RJ seems to do everything for a reason. However, we have had prophecies from several books back that have yet to be fulfilled mixed in with prophecies that came true shortly after they were unvieled. The order they are revieled in CoT is not concrete enough for me to grant adherence. </b><br /><br />It's quite clear that the saving will happen before the attack if you consider that Egwene won't be saved through the attack as I pointed out above.<br />But if the Seanchan attack &amp; conquer the WT, they would already meet Egwene and someone would certainly free her. <br /><br />Besides, in this case it is not explained why it has to be a Seanchan woman with a wavering face and a sword on the back, and why she wants to reach the top with Egwene.  <br />


created: 2003-12-12 07:18:41
subject: <b>To cleantoe</b>
body:
Well, you are still wrong then.<br /><br />Egwene knew that it was a dangerous task, that is right.<br /><br />Nevertheless she didn't expect to become captured. <br />After her capture Egwene considers that someone must have betrayed the plan. <br />Thus people were waiting for her and could capture her.<br /><br />She also didn't want to be captured. For what reason? <br />Makes no sense and you should realize that if you are honest.<br /><br />


created: 2003-12-12 09:01:59
subject: <b>also..</b>
body:
If she knew, it was a pretty crappy thing to do since Leane did the Southharbor and probably got captured too.  I don't think Egwene would do that to her.  Especially her or Siuan of all people.  Even if they weren't friends.. the worst people to end up in the White Tower would be those 2.. (though they probably wouldn't be recognized.)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Wartherded by Phil Reborn<br /><br />CW</font><p></p>


created: 2003-12-12 10:56:08
subject: <b>no proof</b>
body:
At this point in the story there is no proof that Egwene was taken by the White Tower, only that a woman with an 'ageless face' was pouring tea down her throat.  So, for the moment, it could be anyone.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> &quot;A One that is not cold, is scarcely a One at all.&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-12-12 11:42:34
subject: <b>Questions</b>
body:
Just a couple thoughts/questions.<br /><br />At the current time, very few people know that Egwene has been captured. Of course, that news will spread like wildfire in the rebel camp, and Siuan can tell Nynaeve, Elayne, Aviendha, etc, through TAR. The question that comes to my mind that needs to be answered, is how are the Seanchan going to find out, and an even bigger question, why would they care? To the Seanchan, Egwene is just another damane, with a talent for working earth, that managed to escape. Very few of them even know about her, and Karede, Yulan or Chuilen are not among them. On top of that, you can be sure the Seanchan plan involves collaring all of the AS. Now that that plan has been set in motion, only Tuon will be able to stop, or change it.  <br /><br />As has also been pointed out, raken can land on the top of the Tower, true. However, prisoners are usually kept in the dungeons, which are generally way down below the floor levels. The logistics of traversing all the way from the top of the Tower to the dungeons would be rather high-risk with little chance of success, IMO. Just finding her in the rabbit-warren of passages and rooms would be almost impossible. Then getting her back to the top to safety, would be stretching credulity to the extreme.<br /><br />The biggest hurdle I see right now is getting the news of Egwene's capture to Mat. His recurring role has been to rescue AS, and even if Egwene sees it as a Seanchan rescue, it will likely be Mat convincing Tuon to help free her. Otherwise, Egwene is an anonymous damane of no importance.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2003-12-12 11:46:00
subject: <b>Some thoughts</b>
body:
A good theory that brings a lot of response. Keep them coming!<br /><br />First off, I don`t see Chulein as the one with the sword. This is surely Egeanin. The way it would be Egeanin, is for Tuon to have sent her, or come with Rand and co. after the Seanchan agreement. Tuon would be the one beside her during the confrontation with Rand.<br /><br />Therefore, her rescue from the WT would be made by Gawyn.<br />That Dream has been hanging around long enough!!!<br /><br />&quot;we can reach the top together&quot;, IMO is symbolism; ie the Seanchan will be helping Egwene achieve her goal.<br /><br />My biggest problem is, why would the Seanchan rescue Egwene before the Seanchan attack the AS? I can see them helping her after Rand`s agreement, but not before. At that time, Tuon would put a stop to the attack.<br /><br />But again, this is the nature of theories. We`ll have to RAFO.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2003-12-12 16:26:56
subject: <b>interesting</b>
body:
Nice theory Etzel, though I do not agree with all of it.  First of all, I am not convinced that all the dreams we see will come true.  Some could very well be red herrings.  I am also not convinced that the rescue by a Seanchan has to come after the tower scenario is finished.<br /><br />However, the biggest problem I have is that the Seanchan would purposefully rescue Egwene.  Having said that, what if she is rescued anyway?  What if the raken rider saw a woman in a boat get clobbered by a bunch of other women and decided to investigate?  She could simply rescue Egwene not knowing who or what she is.  Egwene reached up and touched the chain, the woman who caught her made a more obvious use of the power to a  non-channeller.  A flyer might see that and decide to rescue Egwene from the nasty unchained damane.<br /><br />We will see, this is an interesting idea, but also a clear case of RAFO.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">May you be successful  in all your projects.<br /><br />I am a pastafarion.  The Flying Spaghetti Monster created the universe, and no one in Kansas can prove me wrong.<br /><br />http://www.vengaza.org</font><p></p>


created: 2003-12-12 17:47:49
subject: <b>&quot;Rescue&quot; may not be so literal</b>
body:
I found this theory very interesting, but there are several good interpretations of the dream about the cliff. I don't think RJ would make that dream so literal, it would be too much of a spoiler. I don't remember seeing any dreams/prophecies coming out exactly as they saw them. It makes more sense for the path Egwene is climbing to be some task, and that she is about to fail. The Seanchan woman holds out her hand, possibly signifying an agreement with Egwene which would be mutually beneficial. You know, Etzel, for these dreams being as ambiguous as they are, you're being pretty closed-minded about what they mean.


created: 2003-12-13 03:37:20
subject: <b>Some replies</b>
body:
To Light in the Night,<br /><br /><b> At the current time, very few people know that Egwene has been captured. Of course, that news will spread like wildfire in the rebel camp, and Siuan can tell Nynaeve, Elayne, Aviendha, etc, through TAR. The question that comes to my mind that needs to be answered, is how are the Seanchan going to find out, and an even bigger question, why would they care? To the Seanchan, Egwene is just another damane, with a talent for working earth, that managed to escape. Very few of them even know about her, and Karede, Yulan or Chuilen are not among them. On top of that, you can be sure the Seanchan plan involves collaring all of the AS. Now that that plan has been set in motion, only Tuon will be able to stop, or change it. </b><br /><br />To explain it, you must note the other circumstances.<br /><br />Egwene can tell the Aes Sedai of her situation via TAR, e.g. say where she is in the Tower, who betrayed her etc. <br /><br />I believe that Nicola betrayed Egwene (or rather the plan). The best reasons speak for this view. Therefore the Shadow wasn't involved and did not want that.<br /><br />Halima won't be happy to when she learns that Egwene was captured but angry that she lost her.  <br /><br />As I said the Seanchan will attack the Rebels first. <br />Halima will certainly use this situation to get some &quot;influence&quot; on the Seanchan.<br />Maybe she suggests then that Egwene should be rescued, e.g. to get informations from within the WT or practice a great raken attack with it. <br /><br />This could be one possible explaination why the Seanchan learn of Egwene and want to rescue her.<br /><br /><b> As has also been pointed out, raken can land on the top of the Tower, true. However, prisoners are usually kept in the dungeons, which are generally way down below the floor levels. The logistics of traversing all the way from the top of the Tower to the dungeons would be rather high-risk with little chance of success, IMO. Just finding her in the rabbit-warren of passages and rooms would be almost impossible. Then getting her back to the top to safety, would be stretching credulity to the extreme. </b><br /><br />Surely it's a dangerous mission but I think it can and will be successful as Egwene's dream shows. <br />For example Egwene can tell where she is. <br /><br />Plus, normally Aes Sedai don't care much about workers or servants in the WT. <br />In CoT, prologue, pg.42, we learn that e.g. the Aes Sedai &quot;Yukiri always felt sympathy for the people who had to haul wood and water and everything else up the servant's ramps all the way from the ground...&quot;.  <br />Chulein could use these servant's ramp and thus minimize the risks.<br /><br />Finally, Min was successful in freeing Siuan and Leane, too. <br /><br /><b> The biggest hurdle I see right now is getting the news of Egwene's capture to Mat. His recurring role has been to rescue AS, and even if Egwene sees it as a Seanchan rescue, it will likely be Mat convincing Tuon to help free her. Otherwise, Egwene is an anonymous damane of no importance. </b><br /><br />As pointed out above I don't agree that Mat or Tuon will be involved in the rescue of Egwene. <br />Indeed, how could Mat learn of Egwene's situation? I see no good way.<br /><br /><br />To jofraz,<br /><br /><b> First off, I don`t see Chulein as the one with the sword. This is surely Egeanin. The way it would be Egeanin, is for Tuon to have sent her, or come with Rand and co. after the Seanchan agreement. Tuon would be the one beside her during the confrontation with Rand. </b><br /><br />I don't see how Tuon could know of Egwene and why she would send Egeanin. <br />I also don't know why Egeanin would have a wavering face. <br /><br />But yes, we will find out.<br /><br /><br />To bme,<br /><br /><b> Nice theory Etzel, though I do not agree with all of it. First of all, I am not convinced that all the dreams we see will come true. Some could very well be red herrings. I am also not convinced that the rescue by a Seanchan has to come after the tower scenario is finished. </b><br /><br />Thanks. <br />I believe this dream will come true since it was quite detailed. <br /><br /><br />To Bradmartigan,<br /><br /><b> I found this theory very interesting, but there are several good interpretations of the dream about the cliff. I don't think RJ would make that dream so literal, it would be too much of a spoiler. I don't remember seeing any dreams/prophecies coming out exactly as they saw them. It makes more sense for the path Egwene is climbing to be some task, and that she is about to fail. The Seanchan woman holds out her hand, possibly signifying an agreement with Egwene which would be mutually beneficial. You know, Etzel, for these dreams being as ambiguous as they are, you're being pretty closed-minded about what they mean. </b><br /><br />If you look at all of Egwene's dreams they are often quite literal though also contain symbolism. <br /><br />Sure these dreams are open for several interpretations but it must be allowed to defense my theory, at least on this blackboard. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br />Don't think it has to do with being too closed-minded but that it creates good controversial discussion!


