# w_comment

created: 2005-04-02 02:53:08
subject: <b>Did you actually pay any attention to Star Wars or really read WoT?</b>
body:
First of all, regarding the suggestion that Rand would have been more powerful had Aviendha and Mat stayed dead is bull.  Anger is merely one step in the grieving process, and Rand was already past it when he saw they were alive.  He single-handedly routed an army of shadowspawn when he wasn't feeling any anger, only hope inspired by the sight of a woman channeling.  Further, assuming your Jedi parallels have ANY relevance, that power jolt from anger is not worth the cost since it leads you to evil.  The result of the conflict between the Dark and Light sides of the force was not philosophical differences, but large-scale slaughter and destruction.  There is a such thing as good and evil, as unfashionable as these concepts might be to discuss today, and fantasy (about the only acceptable forum in which to present such a struggle) of a superior form invariably requires certain virtues of the champions of Good.  Whether it's Star Wars, LotR, or WoT, you can't fight evil with evil.  Shadar Logoth was the result of one such attempt.  Ingtar sought to dabble in the Shadow out of patriotism, and saw in the Portal Stones where the inevitable end of such compromises leads... a slippery slope from which there is no turning back, and no hope of redemption without a price to atone for the evil done so far.  If you want to cite the conversation between Cadsuane and Sorilea, try reading it!  In it, they discuss the need for Rand to experience emotion and keep in touch with his humanity, not to set his rage against the Dark One, but becasue if he doesn't, as Cadsuane says, his victory could be as bad as the Dark One's!  Even if rage empowers the Forsaken, the last thing Cadsuane and Sorilea would be seeking in the end would be to teach Rand to use their methods!  <br />You cite all these examples of how the Forsaken get angry before channeling, but how much good does it do?  Most of them have died.  Two at the hands of a woman who wasn't showing any sign of anger at the time.  Rand's emotional state appears very surreal when he fights Ba'alzamon, but there doesn't appear to be much evidence of him summoning his rage to win the fights.  <br />Nynaeve's anger is actually an inhibiting factor, and the only reason she channeled when angry, was because only in throes of her temper was she uninhibited enough to shake off her deepest reservations about the Power.<br />I just don't see any evidence backing up your theory, aside from the actions of people who happen to be stupid enough to risk everything on the basis of promises from someone called &quot;The Father of Lies.&quot;  People of whom nine have been killed or captured by &quot;ignorant children&quot; and the others of whom have been driven off in a pitched battle with &quot;primitives.&quot;<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


created: 2005-04-02 13:34:36
subject: <b>AS are guided to their Ajah's by the time of the testing</b>
body:
While NS may be regarded as canon, it is flawed in that it is written from the PoV of two freshly-raised AS. From Lord of Chaos, chapter 30, Suian knows, as an older, wiser person, that, and quote, &quot;by the time you're raised from Accepted, you've been guided to the right Ajah whether you know it or not&quot;<br /><br />Obviously in NS, the girls had no idea they didn't make the choice on their own.<br /><br />So from this we can extrapolate that the various members of the Ajah's must observe the novices and Accepted and then decide whether they are suited to their Ajah. That must be based on temperament, intelligence, knowledge, wisdom and psych profile. So the argument made in the theory is invalid. You become Green because you want to defend the world from evil and because the Green has seen that in you. Just like the Navy Seals pick the best-suited for the training program.<br /><br />In other news, I disagree with the entire theory as well and agree with Onarishma.<br /><br />And keep Star Wars garbage seperate from Wheel of Time please.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />   the Harvester of Mankind    <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />      the Thief of Years       <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />     the Slayer of Worlds      <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />     the Ultimate Reality      <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Blog - brucetheloon.blogspot.com</font><p></p>


created: 2005-04-02 16:55:07
subject: <b>ZehGuga</b>
body:
Im sorry, ZehGuga... I didn't notice your post before now, and since it was, obviously, for me (I think), I feel oligated to answer. As for my posting... I was suggesting: Larger void, larger amount of power. You could imagine the void as an opening in your mind. If you have the gift, you can lead the power through this opening. That means: No void, no power. If there is no void, there is no opening in wich the power can pass through. You can think of the void as a channel; It's called channeling, right? If that is true, larger channel should mean larger amount of power being channeled. I am not saying I believe this; It was just my line of thinking. You create an opening in your mind for the power. It almost makes sense.<br />I feel like I have been repeating myself a lot in this last post... Hope it's not too bad.<br /><br />PS. I'm from Norway, so I guess English isn't my best cup of tea, either.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perplexed.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smackhead.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /> LLT <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-04-03 07:16:33
subject: <b>Do all male channelers use the Void?</b>
body:
When and where did we learn that all male channelers use the Void and the Flame when channeling? I don't remember that this was specifically mentioned in the books.<br /><br />Feel free to correct me with chapter and verse <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />   the Harvester of Mankind    <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />      the Thief of Years       <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />     the Slayer of Worlds      <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />     the Ultimate Reality      <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Blog - brucetheloon.blogspot.com</font><p></p>


created: 2005-04-03 13:25:32
subject: <b>Jedi code</b>
body:
The jedi code is for as I know only from the game &quot;knights of the old republic&quot;.<br /><br />liked the theory btw.


created: 2005-04-03 15:02:27
subject: <b>Responses</b>
body:
Thanks for reading my theory everyone. Some of the responses were quite fiery and I'm interested to see why. Anyway , I'll address any concerns , especially for the minority who disagree with my theory...<br /><br /><b>ZehGuga</b><br /><br />When Rand is fighting Rahvin , Mat and Aviendha die. After this he yells Rahvin's name and says that he wants to see him die. After this the Void is larger and emptier than ever. According to Selene , the Oneness is a source of great mental power for a channeler. When Rand's friends were killed he used anger to augment the size of the Void. This is the underlying message of the theory. The Void is always empty , but you can use emotions make it larger.<br /><br />By no means can this ever allow you to channel more than your potential but it does make you a more formidible and skillful channeler in my opinion.<br /><br />Verin explains to Egwene and Nynaeve that the emotionless surrendering is used by all Aes Sedai but that after a few months you aren't even aware that you are doing it. If we look at how quickly Moghedien can embrace the Source when she is attacked , it seems clear that eventually the whole process takes less than a second.<br /><br />As for sportsmen , there are several sports where adrenalin is pumped up to its maximum prior to the game , especially team sports ... and even individual sports like boxing. I cannot comment on the inner workings of track athletes because I don't know whether they are taught to think aggressively or peacefully. In a battle with Demandred , a man close to Rand in every way , he would need every advantage to beat him.<br /><br /><b>Zeren</b><br /><br />I agree that Myrddraal side effects are probably unintentional. Aginor created Shadowspawn and even he says that a large part of their make-up are still a mystery to him.<br /><br /><b>LLT</b><br /><br />Overall , your posts were amusing but thanks for the support. I had to check that you weren't the author at stages. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><b>Onarishma</b><br /><br />Thanks for the reply. As if I would confuse male and female channeling. All of the quotes which I provided showed that females must empty themselves of emotion before saidar will flow into them. I specifically left Nynaeve out in most cases because her block is an emotional one , and that would obviously confound evidence. Anger is only required for Nynaeve to overcome her initial barrier preventing her from accessing the Source.<br /><br />Once she has accessed saidar , she channels like every other woman. Moghedien angered her further and it blatantly showed how her shield advanced further to shielding Moghedien. Emotional neutrality is essential in being a good channeler. Verin disabuses Nynaeve on several occasions because of her emotional and controlling attitude towards channeling saidar (TGH)<br /><br />At no point did I imply that channelers don't have emotions. They have the inner Void which is essential to channeling , and their outer emotions which often are described as skirting over the borders of the Void. This was the crux of the story. The Forsaken allow the anger to enter the Void and it enhances them as channelers in times of crisis.<br /><br />There was also no misuse of the fury of channeling quote either. I clearly stated that Cyndane sensed a difference in the saidar weaves being channeled around her... channeled with fury. We know that various other battles with saidar were occuring at the same time and we also know that the Forsaken were matching formidible circles. To counter this threat they filled themselves with anger and allowed it to enhance their capabilities in battle. Either you agree with this or you don't.<br /><br />Contrary to what you say , anxiety and fear have had huge effects on channelers. We have seen channelers totally lose the Power and become simpering wimps when caught in fear and anxiety. This is why Aes Sedai have the test to be raised to the shawl ... to overcome the obvious obstacle.<br /><br />As mentioned lower in the thread , Suian tells us that Accepted are chosen for their ajahs before they knew it. Katerine also tells us that Galina knew her ajah before she did. Therefore the Aes Sedai look for qualities in Accepted. Do you really believe that the Greens look for women who like men? They centre on women who would make good battle ajah. Why is quick temper such a well-known quality in the Green ajah? This is no co-incidence. Even if we look at the physical world , the great fighters with swords are courageous , arrogant and proud. Show me a blademaster who is meek and introverted.<br /><br />By all accounts we have also seen a definitive combative disadvantage from the White ajah which cannot be solely explained by their confined life to the Tower.<br /><br />The Forsaken are masters of the Power in most ways and I believe they can consciously control their emotions to their advantage. Graendal's control over her streith gown is but one example.<br /><br /><b>Asmodean's Drummer</b><br /><br />Thanks for bringing in sport. It was an excellent point.<br /><br /><b>Comet Sedai</b><br /><br />Good points , one and all. Men experience the same joy as women , I believe. We have had Rand's experience with saidin several times and he clearly loves how it makes him feel. Unfortunately the good experience is muted by the taint.<br /><br />I agree with you about the Jedi emotions being intrinsically stronger than the Sith ones. I don't revere the Sith by any means but they do appear to have an advantage in combat. Due to the fact that we want Rand to be at his best in combat , he should follow a route which is common to both the Dark Jedi and the Forsaken. Perhaps they are both evil , but they certainly know how to fight.<br /><br /><b>50-Cilverpenny</b><br /><br />I accept your argument and it seems totally opposite to LLT's. Interesting.<br /><br /><b>entyti</b><br /><br />I mentioned that Nynaeve wasn't used in my theory because of her block being a confounder. The woman is based on anger so I couldn't use anything related to her. I used one quote which showed that anger did amplify her channeling success despite no increase in saidar.<br /><br /><b>Cannoli</b><br /><br />I don't know what you were thinking when you replied but I have never seen you so patronising and dismissive of one my posts. What I find surprising is that I have never seen you reply in such a rude way to anything I have written before. I don't know what's going on with you , but here are my replies to your 'points'...<br /><br />I never said that Rand would have been more powerful if his friends had died. I said he would have been more formidible. His lust for revenge would have driven him to near insane levels. <br /><br />Consider this ... Sammael was supposed to lure Rand into a trap by killing someone close to him. Sammael refuses to take part unless he can joint the FS circle. He says that Rand will come directly for his throat. What would make Sammael so scared of Rand despite his rage at his friend's deaths? He matches well with Rand on every other point.<br /><br />Only the Ogier know the relevance of your statements regarding the Jedi. Why bring in a futile argument about good and evil? Did I ever contest that the Sith were evil? Anyway , if you claim that there is no philosophical difference between the two then you don't know SW well enough so I won't pursue it.<br /><br />As for the Cadsuane comment , where do I begin? Do you really think I wouldn't investigate every passage I would place in a theory. Obviously you do , or you would make such an arrogant remark surrounding your clarity of thought in the matter. Cadsuane and Sorilea are worried about his lack of emotion , not his tyrrany or temper. A victory without emotion would make him a leader indifferent to the suffering and plight of others which would make him no better than a Forsaken. I also never said I want him to be an angry , hateful leader ... but a channeler who knows how to use these emotions to his benefit.<br /><br />As for the Forsaken , your blatant mockery of them shows very little insight. They were the greatest people of the AOL and not fools who joined the DO for power. They knew what they were getting themselves into. Any of them is more than a match for the people of the current Age. Unfortunately they have lost every major battle to the main characters due to obvious protagonist-antagonist interactions. The &quot;Super-Forsaken&quot; have clearly shown their dominance in the series.<br /><br /><b>UltimateReality</b><br /><br />In my opinion that statement strengthens my argument because it shows that they don't consciously choose what to specialise in. As you say , the ajah looks for women with similar character traits as them.<br /><br />I see no co-incidence that the Greens are all willful , wildly explosive women like Myrelle and Alanna.<br /><br />Male channelers probably do all use the Void. Rand explains that Rahvin wouldn't feel his terrible burns because of the Void. Demandred also explains that he cannot feel his blistering knee's pain when kneeling in the Pit of Doom. It is implied but not proved.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">A One Power researcher<br />Defender of Lanfear<br />Grand Ninja-Nae'blis to be feared <br />Original Warder to Isa <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br />New Warder to Nossie <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />Toy to Seriana <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/winky.gif" border="0" /><br />Mystified by a Fan <br />Bonded Phelix - I was young, it happened so fast.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-04-04 02:33:20
subject: <b>Counter reply, and sort-of apology</b>
body:
Okay, first of, I'm sorry for the tone coming across badly.  All I can say is that I don't always have time to check in every day, and sometimes I lose track of who's who.  There are some people who do generally know what they are talking about.  I wasn't paying attention to the author's name, and my interpretation of certain passages led me to suspect it was a some yahoo who has probably only read the series once, and goes off on tangents based on things he didn't know.  Of course that is no reason to have come across as sarcastic, and for that I am sorry.  I do favor keeping these discussions civilized.<br /><br />Powerful &amp; Formidable are semantics.  I read your theory to be saying that had Rand killed Rahvin with, say, lightning bolts, and come out to find the Mat &amp; Aviendha's bodies, his anger would have, made him more powerful.  My point was that he had worked through anger by that time, and was not likely to have been in fury at finding their bodies.  Don't forget, he already believed they were dead.  I can't see where this new, empowering anger would come from.  His lust for revenge would have been tapped out by his destruction of Rahvin.<br /><br />It wasn't out of fear of ANgry Rand that Sammael wanted into the link, but out of mistrust of his allies.  If anger makes an adversary more formidable, why do you provoke him into anger?  They wanted Rand enraged so he would rush blindly into an ambush. There was no doubt in their minds that they could take Rand.  Sammael is only afraid of being killed by the three linked Forsaken, who surely see him as a rival for the Dark One's favor.  Heck at their first conference about that alliance, he was ready to kill whichever woman he could if they started fighting, before Rahvin dissuades him.  Do you really think Rahvin, Lanfear and Graendahl were so fond of Sammael that they would have passed on the opportunity to rid themselves of a threat to their standing?  Lanfear gathered these three into her alliance with the intention of betraying them to Rand (she told him the Darkhounds came from Rahvin, rather than encouraging his attention towards Sammael as the plan required).  Her statement that she chose them in particular because they had established power bases might very well be true in a way - she set them up to be killed by Rand, since she regards them as the most dangerous.  Lanfear and Sammael and from what we see of Graendahl would have had no compunctions about killing whichever member of their little alliance was in a vulnerable position, especially once they had Rand chained up.  THIS is why Sammael wanted to be part of the link, for a measure of security.<br /><br />I'm not saying there are no philosophical distinctions between Jedi and Sith, my point was YOU simply seem to see them as something link enemy Ajahs, and that who was good or bad depends on which side you're on.  They aren't a little political power struggle, like between Elaida &amp; Egwene, but enemies representing good &amp; evil.  I interpreted the theory as stating that the Sith merely have a difference of opinion about what the best methods to use the Force are, and I rejected that concept.<br /><br />As I said above, I thought you were one of those people who do post without reading the series or being familiar with events cited.  And I still stand by what I said.  Laughter and tears are hardly the path to controlled rage.  You are right about their motives, but I don't believe an additional motive is for him to use anger to enhance his power. There is nothing to support that contention at all.  Besides, anger desensitizes you to the cost of your actions.  If Rand is using Anger against the Dark One, he could very well throw away the Aiel for cannon fodder in his fury to destroy the Shadow, which Sorilea fears and seeks to prevent.  Plus Cadsuane says after their first meeting that Rand is full of &quot;...A rage fit to burn the world...&quot; From that context, it was not a compliment or a description of potential to be unlocked.<br /><br />I'm sorry if my disrespect of fictitious terrorists and war criminals offends you, but in the first place, I was pointing out that anger isn't helping them all that much.  Rand didn't use anger to beat Ba'alzamon, Aginor, or Asmodean, and his fury at Rahvin led him into a trap that he got out of when Nynaeve distracted Rahvin at a crucial moment.  Moiraine didn't use anger on Be'lal or Lanfear, Elza didn't need anger to kill Osan'gar, and Nynaeve was terrified when she fought Moghedian.  RJ has flat out said that the Forsaken's paranoia has cost them at Shadar Logoth.  Maybe you think they are the greatest people in the world, but their problem is THEY think so too.  They actually seem outraged at the temerity of the savages who opposed them.  In fact, I would bet that is why they are so often angry at their assailants.  Your argument appears to be that they only lose because the plot requires them to.  They are clearly shown to be off balance and out of touch with the time period.  While I don't deny they are dangerous enemies, there is a great deal they do not believe is possible which has been proven wrong.  However great their &quot;accomplishments&quot; they have lost a great deal of political power and have experinced multiple setbacks.  One could argue that they are still a factor only because the Dark One has their back, and brought the one who can unite them and focus their efforts back from the grave Rand sent him to.  We have yet to see how the militiary geniuses among them do at commanding armies with horse-drawn transport at best, hand to hand combat, and none of the technology and resources common to their experience.  And they weren't the best of the AoL.  One might argue they were the scum of the earth.  They were among the most competant and talented of the people who went over to the Dark One, but they serve their self-interest over all, and they went over in order to not die fighting for a lost cause (that is still going strong 3,000 years later. Nice call, Sam, Be'lal), or to indulge in their pecadillos or perversions free of censure, or for a rather dubious promise of immortality, from a being that seeks death and destruction, and political power, in the service of a being who calls for all-out chaos.  Oh and the Dark One gave them access to the True Power, which they are all terrifed to use due to the side effects.  That doesn't sound like smart people to me.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


created: 2005-04-04 09:55:12
subject:
<b>Glad to know you don't revere the Sith! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /></b>

body:
I mean, after all, with all that talk of the power of anger, and your screen name IS Sidious, you were beginning to worry me.<br /><br />I must  further push this point about the power of anger.  You're saying that, it seems to me, that Rand can do better at combat if he mimics Dark Jedi/Sith, in allowing his channeling to feed off his anger.  This may help in the short term, but again, it is NOT the way to ultimate power.  It is a quick and easy way, and does not seem to require as much hard work as the refinement of character.<br /><br />It is easier to be a totalitarian dictator that is obeyed out of fear, than a leader who is obeyed out of reverence.  It is much harder to work on one's character flaws and refine them, than to blast out with anger.  Anger is undoubtably powerful, and the Sith do benefit from it.  But while it may help Rand in the short term to follow their example, it is a waste of time in the long run.<br /><br />Sudden thought on Nynaeve - her anger helps her access her power, but she really does need to surrender consciously to gain full control.  Her anger is useful, but limiting.  It is a block.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Live as if you were living for the second time and had acted as wrongly the first time as you are about to act now.  -VF</font><p></p>


created: 2005-04-04 10:44:41
subject: <b>Hope that wasn't too preachy</b>
body:
I just feel somewhat strongly about some of these ideas as they relate to the real world, but right here and now we're talking about fictional characters' philosophies, not the real world.   Apologies if I'm beginning to sound preachy, Sidious.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Live as if you were living for the second time and had acted as wrongly the first time as you are about to act now.  -VF</font><p></p>


created: 2005-04-04 12:32:00
subject: <b>Atheltes...</b>
body:
I can announce to you happy, happy people here that athletes are taught anger, or desperation. Well, I was anyway.<br /><br />When you're racing, coming into the final straight of a track, and some loser has the nerve to attempt an overtake, you get angry and fierce, which pumps new strength into you, and you force every last scrap out of you into lengthening your stride and using your arms until you reach that line.<br /><br />Watch athletes on TV. mens 100. they are desperate and scary about winning. in longer races there is more time to concentrate and think tactics. But you never relax and you fight all the way round, using elbows and spikes if necessary. well i do. heh heh...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Surprising what you can dig out of books if you read long enough, isn't it?&quot; -- Rand Al'Thor<br /><br />&quot;I of course have zero evidence for this, but since when has that stopped any of us?&quot; -- David Wren-Hardin <br /><br />Oh, transatlantic Love!<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-04-04 12:35:28
subject: <b>Why was LTT healed?</b>
body:
Why did Ishamael heal Lews Therin? Wouldn't it have made more sense to leave him crazy as a loon, than to heal him so that he could feel grief and rage at the kin he killed due to the taint of the DO?<br /><br />If your theory is true, healing LTT was a gamble on Ishamael's part, as LTT could have grown harder and stronger owing to his rage and grief.<br />


created: 2005-04-04 17:44:21
subject: <b>Responses</b>
body:
Take it easy... I am not going to give responses as if I wrote the theory <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />. I just wanted to say I liked your responses, sidious. Nice seeing you covering your own back. It would have been nice to know if I hit some of your points, though. <br /><br />Also, I must say (after a lot of going back and forth) I agree with Comet on this. I am sorry. It may be an advantage for the Forsaken and the Dark Jedis to use anger, but after all, it's always the good guys who win, right? The dark side provides easy ways of gaining power, while the forces of good does it the hard way. It's kind of like the whole &quot;Honesty lasts the longest&quot;-thing. If Rand were to use anger, he may have killed some forsaken here and there, but what does that matter in the long run? You just can't fight fire with fire. Rand's victory would then have been as worse as, no sorry not as worse, but it would certainly not have been a victory of the light. It almost seems like Moridin wants Rand to embrace the anger. It would have been the second best thing to turning him completely. Rand needs to feed the void with the good emotions like laughter and tears (It still doesn't contradict my own little theory about feeding the void...). Only then can he reach his true potential. He needs more than the power of anger to beat a godlike &quot;creature&quot; like Shai'tan. I also think Cadsuane is determined to lead Rand away from the anger-path. The quote put forth by Cannoli also seems to support this. Embracing anger is the first step to the dark side; Isn't that also some sort of SW-crap? <br /><br />Other than that, I'd like to say I was the first to bring sports into this (McEnroe), so don't give Asmodeans Drummer the credit for that one... <br /><br />If anyone wonder why the forsaken turned to the shadow, I think you should read &quot;The philosophy of Elan Morin Tedronai&quot; (It's a theory). Although it doesn't have a very good base, it does explain something.<br /><br />That was all, everyone!<br /><br />PS. I feel bad about bailing out on you in the last minute like this, sidious. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/frown.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perplexed.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smackhead.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /> LLT <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-04-05 15:52:14
subject: <b>Don't forget Lews Therin</b>
body:
Lews Therin was the most powerful man of his entire age, and he had a <i>legendary</i> temper. I like this theory, good show.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I love Moiraine <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /> (probably more than I should love a fictional character)<br /><br />I like sadists much more than masochists.  Masochists are so needy.<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-04-14 00:36:58
subject: <b>Can't be Rand's fault</b>
body:
If Cadsuane dies, it can't be Rand's fault in any way, or he'll use it as a reason to become even more emotionally withdrawn. If he has no control over stopping her killer, he may just go berserk. And I think that the emotional strength might also be something like a berserker in combat. I may not even be a direct increase in strength, or maybe not only that, but a level of disregard for dangers and threats, maybe even wounds. Though, then that wouldn't make much sense with the apparent cold logic still going on inside the void... maybe not.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Incantrix <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-04-16 22:31:02
subject: <b>Anger's Strength</b>
body:
Anger does make you more powerful for a bit. If you learn how to fight without emotion and/or with a different emtion such as humour you will be stronger for it


created: 2005-04-19 19:40:25
subject: <b>wow!</b>
body:
Sid, this is awsome! Probably the best one I've ever read. Oh yeah, and KOTOR is tres awsome too!<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-green.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" />It is beter to be at the right hand of the devil than in his path, but if you have the power, stand by me and await our doomed foe <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2007-12-31 08:38:13
subject: <b>There is no Dark or Light</b>
body:
I would like to point out that dark and light are similar to saidar and saidin in one way they are both emotionally diffrent.<br /><br />Force is hinted at having no dark or light side just the way the user draws upon it.<br /><br />Saidin and saidar are distinctly diffrent. the force is one the Source it two that are one.


created: 2005-04-04 04:21:54
subject: <b>i don't think so</b>
body:
if that was true there would be more of the books (or any) from narishmas PoV<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-04-04 06:33:06
subject: <b>Mmmm</b>
body:
I've always thought it meant logain. I think when its all over even if Rand some how surives that he will withdraw and leave the parties to sort themselves out while he sits on a beach with his ladies and drinks daquaries<br /><br />Of course i'm probly wrong.


created: 2005-04-04 12:36:07
subject: <b>umm...</b>
body:
that seems a bit harsh. i think that will happen, but instead of being killed at the end, he will be taught to laugh and cry by ? and maybe his good friend .... as well. that will sort the world out<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Surprising what you can dig out of books if you read long enough, isn't it?&quot; -- Rand Al'Thor<br /><br />&quot;I of course have zero evidence for this, but since when has that stopped any of us?&quot; -- David Wren-Hardin <br /><br />Oh, transatlantic Love!<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-04-04 12:59:05
subject: <b>No, no and NO!</b>
body:
I don't buy it! If that happends, I am seriously going to burn my books! Personally, I think Logain will follow after. I think I read a theory on it somewhere... I'll try to find it.<br />And by the way alianna oblique, i'd really appreciate that. All stories should end well <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> (the real ones too)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perplexed.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smackhead.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /> LLT <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-04-04 14:29:23
subject: <b>perhaps it means that rand</b>
body:
might try to take the DO on by himself to save people from dying<br /><br />but narishma follows after with the armies/asha'man<br /><br />or something else with a literal meaning<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">idealism not pragmatism</font><p></p>


created: 2005-04-04 19:23:11
subject: <b>Agree in some part</b>
body:
I agree that &quot;follow after&quot; means Narishma. And I don't think it would be Logain for several reason: Narishma already drew Callandor, Rand trusts Narishma with Callandor (on several occasions it seems!), Rand does not trust Logain that much (Logain's actions with Aes Sedai only weakened Rand's relations with them as he sees it).<br /><br />As what that means &quot;follow after&quot;, I think it would be some crazy rescue attempt, or in some dramatic moment of Last Battle, there would be a need for heroic actions from some Asha'man close to Rand or something like this. Plot-wise, it was hinted that Narishma would die (his Aes Sedai foreshadowed that in CoT) willingly. And it would be some heroic actions from Narishma that would fullfill the prophecy.


created: 2005-04-04 21:53:34
subject: <b>umm...</b>
body:
i'm going to have to agree with foxhead and skeeve on this one. I see your point about rand not learning to laugh and cry again but it is seems a little far fetched to believe that Rand would die at the end of the story because of this. I think that foxhead and skeeve are on the right track with the rescue, because it seems like the sort of scheme rand would come up with by sacrificing himself and no one else.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" />Screaming_Defiance<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" />I demand the return of Hurin<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />I love these smiley's<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/clap.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banghead.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shakefist.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-04-05 00:07:07
subject: <b>i like it!</b>
body:
good storry...way to go...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-04-05 05:31:47
subject: <b>NIce but don't think so</b>
body:
Nice theory and I would like to see that happen, but I doubt it will. Jordan is to mainstream, if he can't even kill off minor characters I can't see him make the maincharactee going bad.


created: 2005-04-05 09:25:35
subject: <b>No, what I think is...</b>
body:
Narishma will follow after Rand to Shayol Ghul (he goes there alone, the main battle happens by Dragonmount) There he faces Shaidar Haran and defeats him. I think I will write a theory about it one time. ( I wrote a long post about it a month ago too)<br /><br />By the way: One important aspect of the Daemon was that he could only be defeated at twilight, as in dawn. That strengthens your theory if you think Rand will become the daemon at the time of the DO breaking free, when the day dawns twice.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br />Reading is lighter than a feather, waiting is heavier than a mountain<br /><font color="white">_____</font><b>-Maginor</b><br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-04-05 16:49:35
subject: <b>Interesting</b>
body:
I like the theory but I must vote no. There are too many difficulties to overcome. Egwene's Dreaming has suggested that your theory is impossible...<br /><br />1. Rand in a boat with three women. I don't believe the women will stay with him if he becomes an evil dictator , especially Min. The Dream indicates union.<br /><br />2. Logain stepping over Rand's body which cracks like porcelain. Logain laughs. Sounds like Logain is going to follow after.<br /><br />For all we know , Narishma has already fulfilled the prophecy of 'he who comes after'. He drew Callandor for the second time , and that may be that.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">A One Power researcher<br />Defender of Lanfear<br />Grand Ninja-Nae'blis to be feared <br />Original Warder to Isa <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br />New Warder to Nossie <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />Toy to Seriana <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/winky.gif" border="0" /><br />Mystified by a Fan <br />Bonded Phelix - I was young, it happened so fast.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-04-05 19:59:11
subject: <b>Have to say no...</b>
body:
Sorry but I don't buy it either.<br />Biggest flaw I can see is that it requires a whole lot of additional story to take place AFTER Tarmon Gaidon. We only have three more books to wrap up a WHOLE lot of important story lines (sad bracelet, senachan/crystal throne, white tower reforming, Perrin rescuing Faile and forming his wolf army, Matt's eye, Rand's hand etc...)<br />To focus on a whole new storyline to take place after the last battle would mean the ultimate mega battle will occur at end of book 12 or halfway through book 13! And we all know how much RJ likes to end a book with a bloodbath (Dumai Well's, pretty much every Forsaken battle, Falme, etc.) No way he's gonna throw Armageddon in half-way through a book!!<br />Also, Narishma is at best a minor character. If anyones gonna save Rand it'll probably be his 2 T'averen buddies. (or maybe even Moraine? Min saw that Rand would fail without the help of a woman dead and gone...or something like that quote)<br />Nice idea though. Unfortunately RJ himself keeps saying a lot of threads won't be wrapped up so there probably won't be much at all post TG stuff... Shame really...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Some say it's better to live one day as a lion than a whole lifetime as a worm...but whoever heard of a wormskin rug? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perplexed.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-04-05 22:46:14
subject: <b>interesting,</b>
body:
but a bit unrealistic. i like it, but there just isnt time. this seems, at least to me, to be a reocurring theme in theories. many of them are very, <i>very,</i> interesting, but a bit unrealistic. a plot line like this would take a whole book to not look sloppy. sigh, dont you just wish there where 2309487 books filled with wrapping up random plot lines that need it? ...aaanyway....<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">-Sabin<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-04-06 18:53:25
subject: <b>Rand and Hawkwing</b>
body:
I'm not sure about the Narishma part, but I think the whole situation is pretty plausible. I seem to remember some mention of Artur Hawkwing in the same light, a hero who brought peace and security to a war-torn land, but at the same time a harsh, heartless, and even feared ruler.  Perhaps Rand's journey will be similar in that the methods he uses to rule during a time of war will not translate well into a peaceful regime.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Funny thing about weekends when you're unemployed, they don't mean quite so much...except you get to hang out with your working friends.&quot;<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-04-07 07:43:34
subject: <b>nice theory</b>
body:
interesting theory. but narishma seems to be a minor character, compared to say, logain.<br />as to the parallel, Hiranyakasipu is not a 'demon' in the typical fantasy story manner, and Narasimha is not 'a' god. its more like the creator himself taking human form to kill ishamael.


created: 2005-04-08 01:54:01
subject: <b>Maybe Not.</b>
body:
i like the theory, I really do. . But. . ahh the But. . .Jordan would not want the character ending that way. . he has a way to see things in a noble way concerning the three Boys, (Rand, Matt, and Perrin)  I don't believe he would want us to see Rand in that light in the end.  But, maybe if it was another reason why Narishma to strike down Rand, well that would be somehting different.  But like I said, he would want us, and his two best friends and three lovers to see him as what he truly was. . a farmer who was just doing what he had too.


created: 2005-04-08 03:34:40
subject: <b>True Dragon</b>
body:
Maybe Rand will falter at the last battle because he is a false dragon, his deeds meant to herald the way of the true one. Could Narishma really be LTT reborn?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Chivalry itself<br />      Hero to the people<br />      sworn enemy of BLACK KNIGHT <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-04-08 11:41:14
subject: <b>Ummm...no</b>
body:
Thats a BIG no to the last comment...so so wrong<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Bonded to Mika<br />Nossredna's Siamese twin  (I'm the handsome one)<br />Bodyguard to Packersfan52<br />Best Bowling Buddies with Pseudo <br /><br />Proud member of the BBQ<br /><br />Perrin looks like a ninja:<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perrin.gif" border="0" />!</font><p></p>


created: 2005-04-08 13:17:44
subject: <b>Hmmm. . .</b>
body:
I don't know why, but I thought Narishma died. . . <br />Which Black Tower neophyte was killed during the cleansing?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I've got two guns, one for each of you.<br /><br />&quot;The more keys you have the less important you are.&quot; -Pepe<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-04-08 13:26:55
subject: <b>Betrayer Reborn</b>
body:
Eben died then not Narishma.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Founding member of the ASI</b><br /><br /><b>TP ADMIN</b><br /><br /><b>Simon</b><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-04-08 14:11:12
subject: <b>Ahh, thanks.</b>
body:
Poor little guy. . . ::sniff::<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I've got two guns, one for each of you.<br /><br />&quot;The more keys you have the less important you are.&quot; -Pepe<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-04-08 22:07:16
subject: <b>The evidence is fleeting at best</b>
body:
Too many leaps were made in reaching the conclusion...AND<br />The idea is 1) too contrived and stretching, 2) Rand WILL die at Tarmon Gaidon (as per the Karatheon Cycle) and will be raised from the &quot;dead&quot; (by Nyn or by Avienda&amp;Elayne) as per What's-her-bucket's fortelling and 3) Follows after can be anything from next to rule the world and lead the Asha'man after Rand finally dies for good to simply follow the Dragon Reborn as a loyal soldier.<br /><br />Reading any more than that into that snippet of a prophesy is an exercise in leaping to conclusions.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">There is a fine line between Genius and Insanity....<br /><b><i>I AM THAT LINE!!</i></b><br />Please don't tell me that I'm normal, or I'll have to get professionals to set you straight.<br />http://www.geocities.com/aleshandre@sbcglobal</font><p></p>


created: 2005-04-09 04:52:12
subject: <b>A Real Stretch</b>
body:
You Stretched Way To Far on this one. Also I don't agree at all.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Here's Homer Simpson. His Boy Bart. Daughter Lisa. His Wife Marge.-Me<br />If you need to contact others like yourself be on the corner of Needle Street and Mol Hara Square at High.-Cannoli<br />It's Marge, his wife not his wife Marge.-Morambar</font><p></p>


created: 2005-04-09 23:20:49
subject: <b>I thought Min's visions always came true?</b>
body:
Your whole theory revolves around Cadsuane failing to teach Rand to laugh and cry.  Min's viewing on the other hand says she will (empasis on will) teach them something, not try to.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">The &quot;Original Genuine Article&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-04-10 05:50:04
subject: <b>come on</b>
body:
its possible...right?  the prophecies have always referred to rand as &quot;he&quot;, and usually describe him doing great and sometimes terrible deeds. maybe he is meant to clear the path for the real dragon, like a John the Baptist thing. he is the decoy put out by the pattern, and narishma will step in at the last minute and save things.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Chivalry itself<br />      Hero to the people<br />      sworn enemy of BLACK KNIGHT <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-04-19 18:19:08
subject: <b>Rand is the Dragon</b>
body:
Rand al'Thor is the Dragon, not only do we know it, Moiraine knew and so did the Shadow.  Ishmael may have been half mad but he could tell what Rand was.  Narishma may have a part to play during the finally battle.  But what ever that it. . Rand will be the one doing the saving.  Rand is the only one able to defeat the DarkOne.


created: 2005-04-19 20:09:43
subject: <b>WRONG</b>
body:
moiraine and the shadow were mistaken, though there actions were neccessary to pave the way for the true dragon<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Chivalry itself<br />      Hero to the people<br />      sworn enemy of BLACK KNIGHT <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-10-04 22:34:03
subject: <b>UGH!</b>
body:
1 - I can't buy into a theory wherein Rand becomes a heartless dictator who must be destroyed. I would have to bite RJ if that were to happen.<br />2 - Rand is the Dragon Reborn. He found the Eye, he took Callandor, he brought together the Aiel and broke them, he took the Stone (Which Narishma cannot claim), he hears LTT in his head, he is twice marked Dragon, and twice branded with the heron...Need I list off all the other prophecies we've heard? If you're 10 books into the WoT and you still think Rand might not be it, you need to lay off the conspiracy theory.<br />3 - So far, all I've heard of Narishma at all is that he took Callandor on Rand's orders. Logain, however, has had POVs, dialogue with Rand, and is ideally placed to become the next big thing among male chanellers (once Taim goes nuts and tries to break the BT)<br /><br />4 - Come to think of it, anybody else think it's wierd that the Dragon's two most powerful male-chaneller underlings are False Dragons? That's gotta cause some grand confusion for Andorians...


created: 2005-04-09 12:17:03
subject: <b>well....</b>
body:
one thing that bugs me about this theory. LTT and Rand are in essence the same soul. Thats why hes the Dragon <i>Reborn</i>. If rand dies, the Dragon Soul goes to Tel to wait to be reborn again through birth or the call of the horn. Rand himself is really more of a proxy through which the soul can be reborn.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rand.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perrin.gif" border="0" /><br />I don't fail. I succeed in finding what doesn't work. <br /><br /><font color="00ff33">Official Sponsor of the Melindhra Fan Club</font></font><p><a href="http://www.illwillpress.com" target="_blank">Feel the Squirley Wrath!!!!</a></p><p></p>


created: 2005-04-09 12:29:40
subject: <b>Very speculative</b>
body:
<br />That in itself is not a bad thing but it does make it very hard to critique the theory. The problem with this theory, as with other theories, is the drought of information with regards to the Horn of Valere.<br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>I believe that in the last battle, Mat will sound the Horn Of Valere. I have always wondered how the Horn works, how it lets the Heroes rise from the grave, and I now believe that I have come to a reasonable answer. I believe that the Horn causes a rift, or tear, in Tel'aran'rhiod. This tear would be much like how Egwene or Rand are able to travel physically through to Tel'aran'rhiod, but it would also let the Heroes trapped inside Tel'aran'rhiod get out. It doesn't give them a physical form, but it lets them interact with the world around them (fight).<br /></b></font><br /><br />It's an interesting interpretation and given the presence of the heroes in Tel'aran'rhiod it seems like a reasonable one.<br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Now here to my Rand dieing theory. I believe that Rand will die, but he will do so before the fighting, and the DO, is finished. The forces of men will do their best and are able to hold their own but cannot win without Rand. Meanwhile, Rand's spirit will be whisked away to Tel'aran'rhiod and there he will meet none other than LTT (who would still be there, since his spirit isn't necessarily called back by the Horn). I believe Rand and LTT will somehow become one in Tel'aran'rhiod, combining their strengths and knowledge. Rand will then leave Tel'aran'rhiod through the rift created by the Horn, start fighting again, and with his knew found strength and knowledge, defeat the DO.</b></font><br /><br />I disagree with this part of the theory; Rand cannot meet Lews Therin's soul in Tel'aran'rhiod because they are the same person. Whilst they have seperate identities and personalities they share the same soul.<br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Comment away</b></font><br /><br />Of course.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">In no particular order:<br /><br />Rav<br />Belal's Girl<br />Lady Isa<br />Phil Reborn<br /><br />It was nice.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-04-09 17:21:51
subject: <b>LTT = Rand</b>
body:
LTT is Rand. They are the same soul. The proof of that is tGH. When Mat sounded the Horn, there is no LTT coming. In fact, Arthur addressed to Rand as he was LTT.<br /><br />So here goes off one of the point of the theory.<br /><br />The other, about Rand being called back by the Horn - it's very speculative. There is no proof that LTT is the Hero of the Horn. Yes, he is tied to the Horn, but it's different. I beleive that he tied in the way that only when Dragon is around the Horn is used. And the Dragon uses the help of Heroes to complete his mission. I have no real support of that, only very little hint - there is no channelers among Heroes. Hero of the Horn is a regular person, who accomplished something heroic via regular means available to all people. That's why I don't beleive Moiraine is the Hero as well.


created: 2005-04-09 18:47:49
subject: <b>In responce to comment above,,,</b>
body:
I never said LTT was a Hero of the Horn.  Contrary, I explicitly said that he is NOT a Hero, but rather that the Dragon must use the Horn as a tool for his rebirth.  Oh, and the reason that Moraine &quot;isn't the hero of the horn&quot; as you so eloquently put it, is because she isnt dead.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Bonded to Mika<br />Nossredna's Siamese twin  (I'm the handsome one)<br />Bodyguard to Packersfan52<br />Best Bowling Buddies with Pseudo <br /><br />Proud member of the BBQ<br /><br />Perrin looks like a ninja:<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perrin.gif" border="0" />!</font><p></p>


created: 2005-04-09 19:01:11
subject: <b>Headline/Title</b>
body:
I'm not going to repeat the Rand=LTT-part (oops), but if Rand died and went to the world of dreams, he would literally merge with LTT. I do not mean souls or such crap, I just mean that he will gain the memories of all the Dragons that have ever existed. Maybe he will see all the things he has done trying to destroy the Dark One in the other turnings of the Wheel, and come up with something entirely new for this particular age <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />. <br /><br />With this, I may have given the impression of agreeing with your theory,but really, I voted no. Why? I just can't see this as a possible ending to tWoT... No, definately not. And besides that, I don't think the soul of LTT is bound to the Horn like the heroes. I know he is bound to the Wheel like any other soul of WoT, but only few of the souls are bound to the Horn. The Horns only purpose (I think) is to help the Dragons, so it would be kind of unnecessary to make the Dragon a Hero. All in all, I think the soul of the Dragon is just a soul like any other, only with a more important role in the turnings of the wheel. <br /><br />BTW, hasn't this theory been posted before? No? Strange... I was so sure I had heard it before. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smackhead.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perplexed.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smackhead.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /> LLT <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-04-09 19:23:28
subject: <b>Like I said earlier..</b>
body:
I dont think the Dragon is a Hero of the Horn!  I cant believe that Im commenting (twice now haha) on my own theory, but I dont want to be misinterpreted.  The Dragon isnt a hero of the Horn.  The Dragon is a ta'averen, and will be spun out by the wheel, and when he is spun out, he will USE THE HORN.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Bonded to Mika<br />Nossredna's Siamese twin  (I'm the handsome one)<br />Bodyguard to Packersfan52<br />Best Bowling Buddies with Pseudo <br /><br />Proud member of the BBQ<br /><br />Perrin looks like a ninja:<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perrin.gif" border="0" />!</font><p></p>


created: 2005-04-10 00:24:35
subject: <b>Have to say no to a good bit here</b>
body:
<b>Many people believe that Rand will die and then be ressurected. </b> <br /><br />I know that many believe this, I just don&#8217;t buy it. Heck, there are still folk that think the earth is flat.<br /><br /><b>I believe that in the last battle, Mat will sound the Horn Of Valere. </b><br /><br />As he is still tied to the Horn (as most characters believe), this is a given. <br /><br /><b>I have always wondered how the Horn works, how it lets the Heroes rise from the grave, and I now believe that I have come to a reasonable answer. I believe that the Horn causes a rift, or tear, in Tel'aran'rhiod. This tear would be much like how Egwene or Rand are able to travel physically through to Tel'aran'rhiod, but it would also let the Heroes trapped inside Tel'aran'rhiod get out. It doesn't give them a physical form, but it lets them interact with the world around them (fight). </b><br /><br />Makes sense. I&#8217;ll not argue this.<br /><br /><b>Now here to my Rand dieing theory. I believe that Rand will die, but he will do so before the fighting, and the DO, is finished. The forces of men will do their best and are able to hold their own but cannot win without Rand. Meanwhile, Rand's spirit will be whisked away to Tel'aran'rhiod and there he will meet none other than LTT (who would still be there, since his spirit isn't necessarily called back by the Horn). I believe Rand and LTT will somehow become one in Tel'aran'rhiod, combining their strengths and knowledge. Rand will then leave Tel'aran'rhiod through the rift created by the Horn, start fighting again, and with his knew found strength and knowledge, defeat the DO. </b><br /><br />I don&#8217;t think so. The DO is the lord of the grave. <i>If</i> Rand dies and is not a Hero (and in answer to a question you said you did not believe he was), then the DO has Rand&#8217;s soul as a toy. Combine this with the fact already pointed out that LTT &amp; Rand are the same soul, and, well, your theory (this part) is shot.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;These guys are special... These are crack soldiers... They are everywhere&#8230;yes, they really have us by our balls here&#8230; Can you get us out of here?&#8221;<br />Zarqawi about 3/504 PIR</font><p></p>


created: 2005-04-10 19:15:21
subject: <b>LLT</b>
body:
You've seen this discused on the MB. I've discussed it there recently, as have others. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Warder to Be'lal's Girl<br />Wotmania Lottery<br /><br /><br /><br />&quot;Meh. A good relationship is like fireworks: loud, explosive, and liable to maim you if you hold on too long.&quot; ~ Sven, Questionable Content<br /><br />Bonded by Sidious. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-04-11 03:11:54
subject: <b>MB?</b>
body:
MB?MB?B?MB?MB?MB?<br /><br />Please, please, please?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perplexed.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smackhead.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /> LLT <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-04-11 03:13:39
subject: <b>Got it...</b>
body:
Of course, the Message Board! thanks anyway <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perplexed.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smackhead.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /> LLT <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-04-11 14:17:29
subject: <b>heroes of teh horn</b>
body:
I don't know what rock hawking has been hiding under, but he failed to notice the fact that Artur Hawking, one of the stronges ta'veren of ALL TIME is a hero of the horn...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> &quot;I'm the D.O.&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /> &quot;No I am&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rand.gif" border="0" /> &quot;KILL THEM!&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /> &quot;You can't possibly win!&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" />*smirks* &quot;Ya wanna make a bet???&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perrin.gif" border="0" /> *mutters* &quot;stupid axe&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/avi.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/min.gif" border="0" /> &quot;YOU CAN DO IT!&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2005-04-11 14:19:16
subject: <b>mat</b>
body:
Mat is based more upon odin than anything else. What is Odin's fate? Odin dies at Ragnarok (Tarmon Gai'don). I think taht maybe 'he' will be the one to do some dieing... not rand...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> &quot;I'm the D.O.&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /> &quot;No I am&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rand.gif" border="0" /> &quot;KILL THEM!&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /> &quot;You can't possibly win!&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" />*smirks* &quot;Ya wanna make a bet???&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perrin.gif" border="0" /> *mutters* &quot;stupid axe&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/avi.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/min.gif" border="0" /> &quot;YOU CAN DO IT!&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2005-04-11 14:31:05
subject: <b>Mat - Odin connection</b>
body:
Odin lost an eye... Doesn't that sound familiar?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perplexed.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smackhead.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /> LLT <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-04-11 14:31:50
subject: <b>Mat - Odin connection</b>
body:
Odin lost an eye... Doesn't that sound familiar? He also had a connection with ravens... Familiar yet again?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perplexed.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smackhead.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /> LLT <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-04-11 18:23:28
subject: <b>Twice dawns the day</b>
body:
LTT was the Lord of the Morning.  If Rand were to enter the battle, then die, then come back after becoming fully cognizant of his former lives in TAR (like Birgitte), then the Lord of Morning could arrive twice in the same day, thus allowing the day to &quot;dawn&quot; twice.<br /><br />Other than that bit of word-twisting, it's tough to argue either for or against this theory.  But you do a good job with the evidence we have, so I say &quot;Thumbs up!&quot;<br /><br /><br />TFK


created: 2005-04-12 06:56:44
subject: <b>Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm....</b>
body:
I think this theory has some definite backbone to it, but I don't think it is so. Artur Hawkwing and Mat are not the same, and Hawkwing is a hero....Could it be that the Dark Prophecy in GH has some hold?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smackhead.gif" border="0" />People are stupid. That's why it says 'Do not eat' on laundry detergent boxes.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smackhead.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-04-12 12:53:11
subject: <b>first time, no likey, second time, likey</b>
body:
i was too lazy to read others' posts, so if i repeat something please excuse me.  first time i read this theory i was like, eh.  second time was more like a hmmmm.  i think that maybe the horn won't be used until after rand has died and matt's like oh shizz, we need help stat.  then since the dragon is no longer alive in the world, he can be called back too.  the question is, what happens after?  does rand/ltt go back to tel 'aran'rhiod or does someone sever him from it?  and can birgitte go back now?  and what about gaidal/olver?  too many gd questions...<br /><br />peace<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;It's ridiculous to suggest that a team could go through a season in our league without losing. It's comical, just comical.&quot; Alex Ferguson 27th September 2002<br /><br />gooner...red and white army...<br /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gimli.gif" border="0" /> my soulmate<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/clown.gif" border="0" /> my nemesis</font><p></p>


created: 2005-04-13 11:15:19
subject: <b>I thought RJ has stated that LTT is bound to the Wheel of Time.</b>
body:
Arthur Hawkwing spoke to Rand and said they have fought together and against each other countless times, just like Ishmael has been saying.<br /><br />I do not think the dark one can capture a soul that has been bound to the Horn or the Wheel.  If so he would have already killed him.  He needs the Dragon to &quot;Choose&quot; to serve the DO.  Free choice is a bitch.<br /><br />Personally I do not agree with your theory. I think it is possible, but I think it is more likely that LTT will end up taking control of Rand for a period of time.  He will take over at the criticle period and defeat the DO.  This time the DO's counter stroke will &quot;kill&quot; LTT.  But Rand will survive.  I do not have a clue how the Day will Dawn twice, but I bet that Balefire will be involved.  With the CK and the amount of OP, it will burn a thread back a full day.  So the DO will end up sealed like new and the Day will Dawn Twice, LTT will find absolution &amp; Rand will now be cursed to live with THREE wives....LTT is laughing the whole time.


created: 2005-04-14 00:39:08
subject: <b>Interesting</b>
body:
I really like the idea of having Rand resurrected by the Horn of Valere...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Incantrix <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-04-14 21:35:19
subject: <b>hey,</b>
body:
fisher king, that makes alot of sense! LTT appearing twice could be a twice dawns the day thing, with the lord of the morning.<br /><br />of course mat will blow the horn, he's the only one who can.<br /><br />theres no &quot;fusing&quot; to be done in TAR, they're already fused. duh...<br /><br />i find it hard to agree with any TG theory unless its completely crazy. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /> is not the kind of guy to end a series predictably (sp?)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">-Sabin<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-04-16 21:56:37
subject: <b>mat not rand</b>
body:
i can't say i agree with most of this.  everyone else seems to have mentioned that there's no intrinsic difference between rand and ltt and that rand would be tied to the horn for any reason.  and i don't know that i agree with the idea that all heroes tied to the horn are in tel'aranrhiod.  <br /><br />but if this contains even a grain of truth i think it much more likely to happen to mat.  mat sounded the horn, he's the one that's linked to it.  and i mean linked.  i think that it's possible that those who have sounded the horn in previous ages are those that will be recalled when it is sounded again and so when mat dies in the last battle and someone else sounds the horn (and it doesn't in any way have to be rand -- in fact i'd expect it not to be) then mat will return to fight...


created: 2005-05-10 03:11:01
subject: <b>LTT is Rand</b>
body:
I know this has already been said a few times, from skimming over some of the replies.  LTT is Rand and vice versa which we see when Matt blows the horn.  LTT is a no show, and Hawkings addresses Rand as the Dragon.  Another quick thought is in the same conversation between Artur and Rand, Artur realizes that Rand did not blow the horn and almost seemed surprised.  <br /><br />&quot;you are not the horn blower&quot; or something along those lines. <br /><br /><br />


created: 2005-05-22 16:57:14
subject: <b>rand and lewis are one.</b>
body:
Their one. Its like Birgett, she remembers her past lives, but not when she lives them. But the important thing is that their her, every time. No matter what happens she is who she is, and when she dies she does not meet herself, she is herself.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Journey to the Tiger Sea,<br />Where legends die and stories be,<br />Where royalty rise and fall,<br />And Wotmania rules them all.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-06-17 15:39:48
subject: <b>Probably does not make sense.</b>
body:
This may not even make sense but here goes anyways.  I have seen talk of Rand dying but not really dying, Mins viewing of three women at his funeral and Nicolas prediction about he who is dead but not really dead.<br /><br />Combining this with the thoughts that Rand shall die before the last battle and this theory about the horn and I have jumped to a conclusion.<br /><br />Something will happen to Rand but LTT shall die and Rand shall remain to fight the last battle, hence he who is dead but not really.<br />On the day of the last battle Mat shall sound the horn calling back the ledgends and this time with them LTT shall reappear and Rand and LTT will fight alongside each other.<br /><br />Although many people say that Rand is LTT from how things are described I see them both as separate entities residing in the same body.<br /><br />Just a thought.


created: 2005-09-28 01:59:29
subject: <b>My $.02</b>
body:
It is most definately an interesting theory. I can't speak to the particulars, but I gave you a thumbs up for an interesting idea!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sister to Nossy<br />Shot swapper with a_fan <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br />Bonded to Phil Reborn and Sidious<br />&quot;Mommies are like wizards&quot; ~ CVH <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br />The fact that I don't agree with you in no way means I didn't understand you.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-10-09 19:09:46
subject: <b>twice and twice</b>
body:
&quot;twice and twice shall he be marked, twice to live and twice to die.&quot;  too many people assume that with this prophecy that it refers to one life as LTT's 3000 years ago, and the second one is what Rand is living now.  LTT was not marked, this prophecy is solely about Rand.  He will die and he will be ressurected.  Nicola's foretelling also makes mention of Rand as one who is dead yet lives.  IMO when Rand dies at the last battle, with blood on the rocks and all, the soul of the Dragon will return to Tel'aran'rhiod.  Once he's in the dream world he can then be resurrected; possibly through the Horn of Valere; but i think a more likely answer will be that Rand returns to the world by being ripped out as Birgitte was.  Fully grown, fully aware of his last life, and will live a fully deserving life with his 3 lovely lasses.  Elayne, Nynaeve, and Birgitte all have some kind of experience with this.  Or maybe b/c the dragon appears to be the only hero tied to the horn who can channel, he can just make a gateway to the real world, and just leave the dream world.  Either way, i'm sure he will die at the last battle, but equally sure it  wont be a sad sorry ending for our heroes.<br />-qBall


created: 2005-10-26 10:35:58
subject: <b>WOW ME TOO</b>
body:
I had thought of this myself and wanted to share it with everyone then I found this thread (yes I know it wasn't difficult to find but this is me and you will find out what i'm like). I have always thought of the re-birth thing as Rand Mat and Perrin being tied to the wheel for the next age or whenever they are needed, that is what i beleive the finns mean when they say &quot;to live you must die&quot;, I don't think he will come back as lews therin either I think he will be rand cos before LTT the was a rand that he was the rebirth of. Please let me know your thoughts on this.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-11-04 20:36:57
subject: <b>Maybe</b>
body:
That would explain one of  the answers Rand got from the finn&quot;the to must become one&quot;.......<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Wolf King <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perrin.gif" border="0" /><br />Bonded for life to amber <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2006-03-24 23:32:08
subject: <b>Matt and the Horn</b>
body:
The lore of the Horn indicates that once it is blown, only the person who blew it last can blow it again. They are linked until the death of the user.<br /><br />Matt origianlly blew the horn at Falme and hasn't winded it since. He technically &quot;died&quot; in Rhuidien with Rand. He played in 'Fin-land and got hung. Rand had to do major CPR to bring him back. This might have been enough of a technical glitch to release him as the bound user of the Horn. It may be that anyone can now use it but nobody tries because they all THINK that only Matt can do it. In truth, anyone can. That could open up the possibility of Rand blowing the Horn at Tarmon Guidan in fulfillment of some interpetations of the prophecy.


created: 2007-01-01 03:10:01
subject:
<b>Some things I just don't agree with, but marvel at your wonderful imagination...and I mean that as a compliment</b>

body:
Wow, your imagination knows no bounds, and I do want to say kudos, because I admire your thinking this through.  My one problem with your theory is when you said Rand dies and goes immediately to Tel'aran'rhiod and meets Lews Therin Telamon. This is mainly where I must disagree with you. He is Lews Therin Telamon!  Lews Therin Telamon was in Tel'aran'rhiod as all the heroes bound to the Wheel of Time go.  When Rand Al'Thor took his first breath on the slopes of Dragonmount, it was evident that the Wheel of Time spun Lews Therin Telamon out and was born again as Rand.  Remember, Birgitte though famous for Birgitte Silverbow had other names and lives.  In the Great Hunt, Artur Hawkwing mentions to Rand, calling him Lews Therin, recognizing him as someone he has fought along side with before and sometimes, fought against.  Almost in a way I think Ishamael was right, the battle between him and Lews Therin has been going on since the beginning of time. He was a well reknowned Philosopher before turning to the Dark One.  Lews Therin cannot be there waiting for Rand as their soul is the same.  Different name, different face same soul.  This is just my opinion too, and opinions are like butt holes, everyone has them. While I think it is unlikely that I am wrong, I am willing to admit the small possibility.<br />As for the Horn of Valere working to that advantage, should Rand die, is interesting, and possible, although once that battle was over, Rand would be dead and return to Tel'aran'rhiod.  However, this is called the Last battle, should the Dark One triumph, Rand would be his in death?..is that possible?<br />Well, keep on using your imagination, there is nothing wrong with thinking outside the box.<br />-Turtle


created: 2005-04-17 11:06:19
subject: <b>i don't think so...</b>
body:
sorry but i disagree here.<br /><br />firstly i am under the impression that all bladesmasters use the flame and the void and it is the void itself which gives them the time and perception to pull off the sword forms effectively. Lan says Rand has some of the best balance he has ever seen, but until he assumes the void he is powerless against Turak, which means under you're theory all the bladesmasters out there (there are a fair few, theres 200 alone in the younglings and all the warders) are potential channelers which seems just far too many for my liking. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />secondly i think that while the void used is the same, just because you can put youreself into it should'nt mean you can also channel. Im sure RJ mentioned somewhere that channeling is genetic, whereas we see through Lan's PoVs in New Spring and that Tam taught a non-blood releation how to use it, that all the void requires is concentration and practice<br /><br />thats my two cents<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> let the speedbart ride again upon the winds of time <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Made the second post on the new WoTMB2 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-04-17 11:10:12
subject: <b>No...</b>
body:
The flame and the void is COMPLETELY mental. It has nothing to do with channeling other than a way to block out emotions and focus on one thing, which is needed in order to channel.


created: 2005-04-17 13:00:02
subject: <b>The Flame and the Void is Exactly like Ignoring Heat or Cold, I Think</b>
body:
A mental trick having nothing to do with channeling that channelers happen to use. Nice idea, though, and well put.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">The Owl of Minerva flies only at dusk, but the Penguin of Idiotochus waddles all day long.<br />I never fight fire with fire; that's what they expect. No, I fight fire with dead leaves.<br /><br />Zeroinbarnotation, RMCM</font><p></p>


created: 2005-04-17 13:34:36
subject: <b>I agree with the first 3</b>
body:
The flame and the void is just a mental trick. Besides we don't even know if all blademasters use it, as it seems Turak didn't considering how easily Rand beat him


created: 2005-04-17 14:39:11
subject: <b>Interesting</b>
body:
I disagree with the theory but I like the similarities.<br /><br />There is one problem which I see. You must be able to apply the reverse too. We know that Be'lal and Sammael were blademasters. If male channelers use the flame and void then it would allow them to all reach blademaster level.<br /><br />However , we know that Asmodean , Rahvin , Ishamael and Taim all avoid direct weaponry.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">A One Power researcher<br />Defender of Lanfear<br />Grand Ninja-Nae'blis to be feared <br />Original Warder to Isa <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br />New Warder to Nossie <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />Toy to Seriana <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/winky.gif" border="0" /><br />Mystified by a Fan <br />Bonded Phelix - I was young, it happened so fast.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-04-17 17:17:49
subject: <b>Can see why you liked it, sidious...</b>
body:
I disagree with the whole theory, but I couldn't help noticing the part about Thom. Kind of remindes me of your theory, sidious. He drew on anger and hate after his girls death! Another evididence in your favor... (Although it's not the right way for Rand to go)<br /><br />As for this theory... It was ridicolous! Was this serious, or was it a humurous theory? If it was serious, I'm lying on the floor laughing right now... Ha, ha, ha<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perplexed.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smackhead.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /> LLT <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-04-17 20:11:17
subject: <b>I agree with everyone about this being wrong...</b>
body:
and with your idea that the Towers will unite.  In the AoL, the Aes Sedai had a unified purpose, and it was a side job next to politics, or law or academic sutdies or whatever day job they had.  The modern Aes Sedai and Asha'man take it farther.  For them it is a lifestyle and a political affiliation and the center of their lives.  Being Aes Sedai or Asha'man IS their career.  Combine this with the fact that their viewpoints on so many issues are diametrically opposed, and there is no way in the Blight they will get together.  And not in Elaida's palace either!  It's a red herring, people!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


created: 2005-04-18 09:47:45
subject: <b>no</b>
body:
Not every blade master can channel.  Not everyone uses the same mental trick, forming the flame and the void.  Lan refers to it differently, and makes it clear it is a mental trick to aid concentration.  I am sorry, but this is a poor theory.  It has no quotes to back it up, and it is in direct contrast with what we know of Lan and Tam.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">May you be successful  in all your projects.<br /><br />I am a pastafarion.  The Flying Spaghetti Monster created the universe, and no one in Kansas can prove me wrong.<br /><br />http://www.vengaza.org</font><p></p>


created: 2005-04-18 11:01:50
subject: <b>I'm sorry, no</b>
body:
As everyone else, I disagree with this theory. IIRC, the creator himself (RJ) said that the flame and the void has absoloutly nothing to do with channeling.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Apart from the sanitation, medicine, education, wine, public order, irrigation, roads, the fresh water system and public health, what have the Romans ever done for us?&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2005-04-18 15:08:05
subject: <b>Flimsy evidence</b>
body:
Interesting thought, but pretty flimsy evidence.  The void is simply a type of concentration which helps one control his/her body and mind.  Such control is as necessary for blademaster as it is for a channeler, but that doesn't mean that the presence of one indicates the other.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Funny thing about weekends when you're unemployed, they don't mean quite so much...except you get to hang out with your working friends.&quot;<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-04-18 19:08:54
subject: <b>interesting,</b>
body:
but probably not. <br /><br />when you said the two towers it took me a seconed to remember you werent talking about lotr. lol<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">-Sabin<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-04-19 22:29:54
subject: <b>Nice post</b>
body:
Truely a bold idea, but you seem to have forgotten wilders. They aren`t TAUGHT to Channel, so they don`t necessarily use the flowerbud method. It`s simply a means of consentrating one`s focus to beter access the powers that they can achieve. The bladmasters do the same NOT because they can Channel, but simply because it allows them to focus the skills they already have.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Lugh of the Vanth<br />Prince of Coolavin<br />Lord of the Darmods<br /><br />&quot;If you must mount the gallows, give a jest to the crowd, a coin to the hangman, and make the drop with a smile on your lips.&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2005-04-21 14:32:09
subject: <b>Blademasters Cannot Channel....</b>
body:
.....the void technique is also used by Sheinarian warriors. Can all of them channel too?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;What do you mean, why's it got to be built?&quot; he said. &quot;It's a bypass. You've got to build bypasses.&quot; - Mr Prosser, head builder</font><p></p>


created: 2005-04-21 22:02:05
subject: <b>A few pedantic points</b>
body:
There is little evidence to suggest that Shaina has been able to learn to channel quicker than normal, only that the Aes Sedai are uncomfortable around her because she is so strong in the Power and authoriatative. She, like Alise is used to running things her own way, with little patience for foolishness and the Power does not change her attitude in that.<br /><br />Also from Rand's PoV when he saw the history of the Aiel in Rhuidean we know that normal people in the AoL and after lived much longer than they do at present. I rather suspect that Nynaeve will find a way to prolong her husband's life in ways that have nothing to do with him learning to channel, assuming that he would even want to learn if he knew he could.<br /><br />Another interesting notion is perhaps the reason that Rand  defeated Turak was that Turak did not use the Void. His profieciency with the blade was due to physical practice, hence why Rand had the edge when he added the mental component to the fight.


created: 2005-05-01 05:52:39
subject: <b>This theory isn't really far out</b>
body:
This theory isn't really far out. Just not very well written out(sorry man it's true) I actually came to near the same conclusions myself.<br /><br />Ok the idea of mental abilities accessible to only channelers isn't as far out as it seems. Remember the handkerchief episode in WH? Min just couldn't block out Rand's episode in the sack while Aviendha picked it up instantly. Nuff said on that.<br /><br /><br />Then there's Lanfear. She mentions the Oneness. So obviously they knew a lot about it in the Age of Legends, &amp; it has survived in a form to the day. There really isn't thaat big of a difference between the river/bank &amp; the void. Both are calming techniques in a way. I'd say from Lanfear's description (in great hunt btw) you can pretty much say they're 2 forms of the same thing (if you look even closely, Lan's void is quite different from Rands'). She says something like stay in the Oneness &amp; you'll find uses of it you never dreamed of (srry can't find the quotes i'm working from memory here). What &quot;uses&quot; could a non-channeler get from it? Obviously mastering it isn't a pre-requisite to being a blademaster.<br /><br /><br />Lastly, you'd think that if there's a specific mental technique that makes you that much better at swording, it'd be pretty much everywhere (much like the forms). Why wouldn't people be able to get the hang of such a simple thing, if it's only mental? To be fair, on the other hand you can prolly make a case on the relative #s of potential channelers &amp; whether or not such a technique would survive that far, but look how many people the black tower has gathered in such a short time.<br /><br />In my opinion it would settle quite a number of things if Tam &amp; Lan could channel but didn't have the spark.<br /><br />Or maybe RJ screwed up like that channeling genetic thing. Can't believe people are STILL arguing it when there's a woman out there doing saidin.


created: 2005-05-07 05:52:05
subject: <b>wrong</b>
body:
...be cool if it was right tho...oh and aes'sedai dont use the rosebud trick, its a novice exercise to become calm...once you learn to channel you don't even need to be calm


created: 2005-05-10 03:39:31
subject: <b>Well put but I don't agree</b>
body:
The flame and void were taught to Rand by Tam and perfected by Lan.  Basically a state of mind were one has full concentration on the task ahead, wether it be going through the forms or shooting an arrow or channeling.  <br /><br /><br />


created: 2005-07-17 16:57:03
subject: <b>inversion on this theory</b>
body:
You are wrong, sorry, can't deny the truth.<br />However, you bring up an interesting point. Rand says that channeling is like fighting. In order for Rand to continue &quot;fighting&quot; the torrent that would destroy him while he channels, he would need some type of conduit through which he could concentrate all of his mental strength. Lanfear spoke of the oneness with familiarity, so perhaps it was a technique used widely in the past. If this is true, it is likely that a majority of male channelers use something similar to, if not the same as, the void.


created: 2005-07-31 02:33:23
subject: <b>Quit saying he is wrong, he is right!</b>
body:
I came to this conclusion my self earlier on in the books. Especally after Lanfear's talk on the oneness. sadly i dont have the time or motivation to put up an arguement, but dude your right, hopefully you can convince the rest of wotmania.<br /><br />...also i want to see Lan channel...


created: 2005-11-21 22:59:53
subject: <b>No</b>
body:
THe flame and the void is simply a way to focus your thoughts.  Imagine if someone tried to channel saidin with emotions shooting around in their head.  Not that it isn't a good thought. You do see that parallel it's just thatnon-channelers can do it as well.  Emotions block you from saidin, in the great hunt Rand describes it.  He says that he assumed the flame and the void, but that he saw, or maybe felt, a warmth or light, saidin, which he'd never seen before.  He uses the void for archery, swordsmanship, and channeling.  He does so to prevent emotions from distracting him.  Also, Egwene conjures up the image of the flowerbud without even &quot;seeing&quot; saidar.


created: 2006-06-17 10:06:44
subject: <b>Nah.</b>
body:
The ability to use saidin automatically implies the ability to use the Void, but that doesn't work both ways. It's like, say, swimming and scuba-diving: you obviously have to be able to swim in order to dive, but people who can swim can't necessarily dive.<br /><br />If just using the void was enough, ANY man would be able to channel.


created: 2006-06-19 00:34:30
subject: <b>Wanted to clear something up...</b>
body:
First off... Blademasters are NOT common! All of Gawyn's younglings are &quot;nearly&quot; B/M level. We have no true indication of Lan being one, no herons. Obviously he is, or at least has the skill and never bothered to test for it... this title is more formality than anything. We see the same thing in Galad or Rand.. at the time of their duels against B/M's they were NOT but were afterwards. I find it more likely Lan's not sporting the fact of his B/M status and in the process gets to use his superior powerwraught blade. I also see it NOWHERE mentioned that all Warders are B/M as well or even have the skill. Not all warders even use swords, consider Birgitte. Also, there is NO difference when Lan and Rand assume the void... Lanfear calls F/V the &quot;Oneness&quot;, Lan calls it ko'di, which is old tongue for &quot;Oneness&quot;. We have seen exactly 5 B/M or B/M level people in the entire series, perhaps six if you wish to include the DF in a New Spring. These are: Lan, Rand, Turak, Valda, Galad and I forgot the DF's name. Whoops, forgot Bel'al and Tam almost. In EVERY PoV we have of them fighting, some mention is made of &quot;Oneness(Galad)&quot;, &quot;F/V(Rand/Tam) or &quot;ko'di&quot;(Lan). I stated NO difference, however there is one... Either they sense saidin or they have enhanced senses if a channeler... perhaps Galad can channel, notice his enhanced senses in the KoD prologue and he is related to Rand. I tore this idea from some other theory btw... too lazy to remember who. I find this highly unlikely and nearly impossible considering the using of the ko'di grants the ability to access the power if used enough if genetically capable of such.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Egwene must die.<br />Rand Al'Thor will face her wrath...<br />And laugh in her face!</font><p></p>


created: 2006-07-12 12:07:18
subject: <b>Lan, Tam and Galad</b>
body:
I am not sure if all blademasters can channel/be taught to channel. But I certainly think these 3 can. The flame and the void does more than help people form the fighting patterns, it gives them a hyper sensitivity that is described by RJ in exactly the same ways as it is described for Rand and the Aes Sedai. Why would he do that if it were not for a reason. Whether anything comes of it who knows. But I think in Tam's case, he maybe knew Rand could be the Dragon Reborn when he found him on Dragonmount and the pattern was that a man with some ability in channeling would look after the young Dragon and teach him a way of, at least, touching the true source without doing himself harm.


created: 2005-04-17 13:43:05
subject: <b>Good idea, but....</b>
body:
didn't Robert Jordan say that no more of the story would take place in Seanchan, so that would mean that the empress would have to come to Randland. Other than that its a good idea.


created: 2005-04-17 15:38:22
subject: <b>Maybe...</b>
body:
Mat letting out the secret about the Sul'dam being able to channel leads to the dethroning of the empress and thus giving up half the light of the world.  Although this doesn't seem likely due to the fact that it is completely inadvertent and the Finn seem to make it a choice  he makes himself.


created: 2005-04-17 16:33:08
subject: <b>Sorry but i disagree</b>
body:
I've always belived this to be another hint at mat losing an eye (losing half his sight/giving up half the light of the world).<br /><br />I do like the idea of moons being half the light of the earth though. good thinking!


created: 2005-04-17 22:09:30
subject: <b>I think its a good idea</b>
body:
I'm not sure if its going to happen that way but I think its possiable.  Personally I hate the theory about Mat losing an eye, I don't know why but it just seems to straight forward to be that.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Summary of 300 pages in Cot:<br /><br />Aviendha: The Aiel have a magical trick called, &#8220;Checking the Baby.&#8221; <br /><br />Elayne: This is the most riveting scene I&#8217;ll ever have.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-04-18 13:41:13
subject: <b>i agree with crackbrained</b>
body:
in the fact that it isn't mat's eye that he's giving up, but i also don't think that this theory is right either. <br /><br />back to the eye thing, why would he give up one eye (give up half the light of the world) to save his other eye (half the light of the world)?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">idealism not pragmatism</font><p></p>


created: 2005-04-18 18:17:05
subject: <b>Interesting theory, but ...</b>
body:
I don't agree.  Mat will sacrifice an eye for a cause, just like Odin did.  There are many parallels between Mat and Odin (check out the FAQ on this), and the loss of an eye will be yet another.<br /><br />The prophecy is that Mat will &quot;give up half the light of the world to save the world&quot;.  <br /><br />Given this, I think Mat will have to sacrifice an eye in order to help free Moiraine from the finns (Thom will also be involved, per Egwene's dream of &quot;Mat throwing dice with blood streaming down his face [the blood is from losing an eye, presumably], the wide brim of his hat pulled low so she could not see his wound, while Thom Merrilin put his hand into a fire to draw out the small blue stone that now dangled on Moiraine's forehead&quot; ).  <br /><br />How, you may ask, would freeing Moiraine &quot;save the world&quot;?  Well, this has to do with Min's knowledge/viewing that &quot;Rand would almost certainly fail [in his battle against the Shadow] without a woman who was dead and gone&quot;.  Presumably, this woman is Moiraine.  Therefore, if Mat sacrifices an eye to free Moiraine from the finns, she will then be able to do whatever she is foreordained to do that will prevent Rand from failing.  Mat will, in effect, have &quot;saved the world&quot; by freeing her.<br /><br />This last part is just speculation of course, and could be complete wrong.  Regardless, though, I do think Mat will lose an eye because of his association with Odin.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Rise and fall, turn the Wheel,<br />'cause all life is<br />Is really just a circle.&quot;<br /><br />-BHT&amp;tM</font><p></p>


created: 2005-04-18 19:13:03
subject: <b>i voted yes,</b>
body:
but then read shi..somethings (the guy above me) post. i think i like that a little better.<br /><br />however, this is a very interesting theory, worth consideration.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">-Sabin<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-04-19 04:15:47
subject: <b>Sounds good</b>
body:
I really like your theory...it is very original, and you didn't go on forever making a thesis out of it (ahem...personal bias) Plus it sounds like something RJ would do.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">The Upper Peninsula...the Two Rivers of this world... <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-04-19 07:57:18
subject: <b>Your first remark is nonsense...</b>
body:
.. and I'll try to give a simple explanation why this is so: <br /><br />If a planet has more then one moon, the moons must have different orbitals, otherwise they'd collide, leaving either an asteroid belt or (rarely) one bigger moon. If they have different orbitals, they can't circle the planet at exactly the same velocity. If they don't have the same velocity one would &quot;speed past&quot; the other moon(s), giving the effect that sometimes there would be several moons up in the sky, and sometimes none. <br /><br />Since we never hear more then one moon in the sky mentioned, Randland can only have one moon. <br />The nine moons of the Seanchan empress must have some kind of metaphorical meaning, nothing to do with illuminating the world at night. <br />So I voted no. <br />


created: 2005-04-19 11:26:58
subject: <b>This really is another theory in itself but&#8230;</b>
body:
This is another theory altogether, but it was said once that in the AoL Aes Sedai were able to travel to different worlds, after seeing the doorway ter&#8217;angreal it think it highly likely that they did.<br /><br />It is quite obvious that the Seanchan are much more dependent on the one power than they know or would like. An example are sul'dam as well the Crystal Throne itself is a ter&#8217;angreal. The Daughter of the Nine Moons could easily be the heir to an empire that has nine moons. <br />


created: 2005-04-19 11:34:39
subject: <b>I like it but</b>
body:
Isn't there also a line in the books about Mat having his eye on a weighing scale?? Nice original theory but I'm sticking to the idea of his eye being lost rescuing moiraine with Thom.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rand.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perrin.gif" border="0" /> The fourth ta'averen <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/crazy.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-04-19 15:21:40
subject: <b>Smallcatharine</b>
body:
Why do moons have to have different orbits? Surely if they're moving at the same speed, the can have the same orbit? They won't get any closer to each other since they're at the same speed at different points in the same orbit...?<br /><br />Anyway, I digress. Good theory, good idea. Still stuck on the losing an eye prophecy... stubborn y'see.


created: 2005-04-19 17:08:54
subject: <b>Moons have different orbits because they arrived at different times.</b>
body:
Each moon is the result of a different event, whether that event was a larger moon being blasted to bits or a comet getting caught by the Gravity of the planet.<br /><br />Also, if they were in the same orbit that would cause a lot of seismic activity along that line of orbit and could destroy the planet.<br /><br />As to the Theory, how would Mat get into a position where he has the Power to choose whether the Empress will live or die? I doubt Anath *coughcough Semirhagecough cough* will just willingly bring the Empress via Gateway, and RJ has said that no significant part of the plot will occur in Seanchan... So how will Mat get the power to make that kind of decision?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Warder to Be'lal's Girl<br />Wotmania Lottery<br /><br /><br /><br />&quot;Meh. A good relationship is like fireworks: loud, explosive, and liable to maim you if you hold on too long.&quot; ~ Sven, Questionable Content<br /><br />Bonded by Sidious. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-04-21 14:43:28
subject: <b>Half the Light?</b>
body:
Only 4.5 moons would be left then, huh?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;What do you mean, why's it got to be built?&quot; he said. &quot;It's a bypass. You've got to build bypasses.&quot; - Mr Prosser, head builder</font><p></p>


created: 2005-04-22 01:05:10
subject: <b>Moons</b>
body:
There is nothing directly stopping two moons from having the same orbit, as long as they travel at the same speed. There is also nothing that says that either the earth or the moon(s) in WoT are the same size as those of the earth - in fact, the WoT universe COULD be geocentric (nothing that RJ has said has proven otherwise).<br /><br />If two small moons, each about half the mass of our moon, were on diametrically opposed positions in the orbit, then the effect on the earth would be roughly the same as one moon.<br /><br />Nine moons, however, would probably cause havoc, as just a single asteroid hitting a single moon could knock it out of the orbit, and therefore cause all of the orbits of all of the moons to change, possibly even causing collisions and maybe even causing a moon to spiral down to the earth, which would probably wipe out all life from the planet (of course, this is only if you try to have nine moons all the same size in the same orbit at regular intervals - other configurations may be more stable than this).<br /><br />In addition, if there WERE nine moons, a number of them would have to be in the sky at the same time (at least sometimes). I suspect that the 'Nine Moons' is referring to some special event or object, or it may refer to phases of the moon.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Asmodean is alive and posing as Sammael!<br /><br />Sammael <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sammy.gif" border="0" /> is Sparticus.<br /><br />No, I'm Sparticus! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /> = <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />I'm Herid Fel Reborn!!!!! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shy.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-04-22 12:15:36
subject: <b>Enough moon talk, space nerds</b>
body:
Back to the matter at hand, I think that there are many &quot;light of the world&quot; references that should be considered:<br />1. each eye does make up half the light of someone's world<br />2. already mentioned - Daughter of the Nine Moons, keyword moon<br />3. Rand - lord of the morning (sun?), He Who Comes With The Dawn (sun?)<br />4. Sun throne - Cairhien being the land of the rising sun<br /><br />I think it far more likely this sacrifice will involve Rand (sun) and Tuon (moon), rather than his eyes. And Cairhien, well I just threw it in cause it has the word &quot;sun&quot; in it.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Husband of B.B.McGee. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/egwene.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-04-22 17:51:10
subject: <b>wow</b>
body:
this is my theory so its rather cool seeing it up there!<br /><br />u know all that confusing stuff about orbits and astronomical impossibilities? <br />well, its a fantsy series, and if jordan wants there to be nine moons in the sky, then there will be nine moons in the sky, regardless of whether its possible in our world or not.<br /><br />he probaly doesn't research every small detail of our world when writing WOT, and i think some people read to much into it. me included.<br /><br />thanks for all your comments folksies, makes a dude feel loved!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Surprising what you can dig out of books if you read long enough, isn't it?&quot; -- Rand Al'Thor<br /><br />&quot;I of course have zero evidence for this, but since when has that stopped any of us?&quot; -- David Wren-Hardin <br /><br />Oh, transatlantic Love!<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-04-25 17:08:04
subject: <b>&quot;What is Fated&quot;</b>
body:
I believe that due to his Odinistic origin, Mat will assuredly die in the last battle. I furthermore, put forth the idea that he may yet gain even more knowledge/wisdom via the Finns, thus enabling him to &quot;know&quot; of his impending death. Thus brought about to awareness, he will then realize some sacrifice that he must make in order for the final utter victory of the light. Because let's face it folks, if this turning of the wheel isn't unique in &quot;some way,&quot; then why the hell are we reading about Rand and friends Instead of Good ol' Lews and Ishy-poo? Not to mention Moiraine saying &quot;You three could tear the age lace for all time, so that it might <b><i>never</i></b> recover!&quot;<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> &quot;I'm the D.O.&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /> &quot;No I am&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rand.gif" border="0" /> &quot;KILL THEM!&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /> &quot;You can't possibly win!&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" />*smirks* &quot;Ya wanna make a bet???&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perrin.gif" border="0" /> *mutters* &quot;stupid axe&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/avi.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/min.gif" border="0" /> &quot;YOU CAN DO IT!&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2005-04-27 18:59:31
subject: <b>ummmmm.........no.</b>
body:
i thought everyone had pretty much agreed by now that mat=odin. and he will lose an eye. as the price for moiraine's return from finnland. which is supported by min's wiewing with an eye on one side of a scale (i forget what book its in, i think its the first one).<br /><br />and the nine moons is a court. more specifically, the court of the empress of seanchan. i would assume that unless each ruler has a different court when they come into power, this is the court used for all seanchan emporers/empresses. in which case your entire theory is pretty much crap since the empress is not &quot;nine moons.&quot; if it isnt the case its still crap becasuse of min's viewing and the mat-odin relationship.


created: 2005-05-01 04:24:20
subject: <b>hey hey.....</b>
body:
u can't just call it crap and leave it at that. and 'everyone had pretty much agreed by now that mat=odin'<br /><br />just because 'everyone' thinks that it doesnt have to happen. RJ has proved us all wrong before, and since we don't know whats going to happen, you can't just dismiss this innocent little theory of mine because unless you are RJ, you arn't going to decide hat happens.<br /><br />and i'm not to sure i like my ideas being called crap, thank-you. say something constructive, if you're going to critisize.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Surprising what you can dig out of books if you read long enough, isn't it?&quot; -- Rand Al'Thor<br /><br />&quot;I of course have zero evidence for this, but since when has that stopped any of us?&quot; -- David Wren-Hardin <br /><br />Oh, transatlantic Love!<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-08-05 11:04:51
subject: <b>probably said before</b>
body:
this has probably been said before, but &quot;Daughter of the Nine Moons&quot; seems like a title to me, not a factual representation of her position. Elayne is the daughter heir, that does not mean her mother is the heir (i know thats not quite the same but its the only example i could think of) oh and Mat is called son of battles i believe. that does not make Abell Cauthon &quot;Battles&quot;.


created: 2005-11-01 10:33:43
subject: <b>Nice thought</b>
body:
I like this idea, it seems just convoluted enough for old RJ. I think the whole loosing an eye thing is too simple, and when have these books ever been simple?


created: 2005-12-04 09:06:26
subject: <b>totally off subject</b>
body:
...but has anyone did a theory on the two ravens on mat's shoulder?( i think it was perrin's dream...aye vey...)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br />&lt;--iKandy--&gt;</font><p></p>


created: 2007-07-21 23:51:15
subject: <b>half the light of the world</b>
body:
There is much that you have said that is relevant but when Rand and his party use a portal stone to get to Toman Head Mat sees a vision of his alternate life betraying the Dragon and cries to Rand that he would never betray him. Tuon has plans for Rand and the male adam. Mat will probably be put tomaking a choice between the woman he loves and the Dragon.


created: 2007-08-06 06:27:40
subject: <b>There is only half the light of the world left unbroken.</b>
body:
Mat is given the unbroken male half of the Choden Kal to look after by Rand, before the last battle because with his Ter Angrel he is not susceptible to channelling.  During the last battle after Rand has fallen, dead or not, he gives it up to Logain who then uses it to defeat or re-imprison the dark one and thus saves the World. He gives up half of the &quot;light of the world&quot; to save the world. The &quot;Light of the world&quot; being the Choden Kal. This also explain the great Glory that Min sees in Logains future.


created: 2007-12-15 20:15:33
subject: <b>I'm a bit torn on this subject</b>
body:
I've never quite believed that losing his eye = giving up half the light of the <i>world</i>.  He might lose his eye in the Moiraine rescue as yet another Odin parallel, but I'm not sure that's what the Finn answer meant.  <br /><br />Given that Matt is battle leader par excellence, I've always thought that he would have to lead half of Rands armies (half the light) into an unwinnable battle or on some sort of suicide mission... essentially giving up the lives of half his army in order to ultimately win the battle.  <br /><br />Seems to fit in with his ties to Manatheren (suicide mission to hold off the Trollocs) and the fact that his story line has become more and more about armies and being the ultimate General for the Light. And now that he is the Prince of Ravens, it seems certain that he'll be leading the Seanchan into TG.<br /><br />Just a thought!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I'm a Domani Drag Queen who went to the Black tower.  Leane is my 3rd cousin twice removed and I showed her how to use make-up!<br /><br />I don't deal in absolutes or spell check!</font><p></p>


created: 2005-04-20 10:46:45
subject: <b>nice</b>
body:
i never saw this coming, good work.<br />i agree <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> let the speedbart ride again upon the winds of time <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Made the second post on the new WoTMB2 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-04-20 10:47:12
subject: <b>ooops</b>
body:
double post.<br />sorry everyone<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> let the speedbart ride again upon the winds of time <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Made the second post on the new WoTMB2 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-04-20 12:32:31
subject: <b>good Job</b>
body:
Never thought about the Band being used seeing as mat is technically a subject of andor.  i think your on to something here.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br /><br />Respond to PR, react with force. yup, definitely American -Fyatuk<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-blue.gif" border="0" /> Sce`ce of Mighty Slayer of the Ninja Monkeys <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-blue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br />Charter Memeber- NANOUS<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-04-20 21:11:28
subject: <b>I love it!</b>
body:
If that is what happens in book 11 I will be a happy woman!   Especially the meeting between Elayne and Tuon!


created: 2005-04-21 00:52:58
subject: <b>Severed Hand Prophecy/Vision</b>
body:
This would be an excellent interpretation of Min's severed hand vision about Elayne.  Currently the Band of the Red Hand is severed from the rest of Rand's Army.


created: 2005-04-21 01:44:27
subject:
<b><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> Nice theory!</b>

body:
At last a theory that isn't totally insane <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perplexed.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smackhead.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /> LLT <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-04-21 08:15:02
subject: <b>person above,,,</b>
body:
Matt has met daved hanlon and the lady shiane is the person to tried 2 kill him in the barn teotw isnt she?<br />newayz he meets daved in book 4-6 i believe<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">But trust is the color of a darkseed growing<br />     trust is the color of a hearts blood flowing<br />     trust is the color of a souls last breath<br />     trust is the color of death<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-04-21 09:08:19
subject: <b>I don't think so</b>
body:
I really like the theory, and there is much to suggest it.  It just seems to me that all the increase in the swirly things when Mat, Rand or Perrin think about each other implies that they need to all get back together.  Also, Mat is likely to help with the rescue of Morraine.   It would be too much in one book for Mat to rescue both Elayne and Morraine.  I think Elayne is on her own.  Just a gut feeling for me.  <br /><br />Still a good theory though.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">May you be successful  in all your projects.<br /><br />I am a pastafarion.  The Flying Spaghetti Monster created the universe, and no one in Kansas can prove me wrong.<br /><br />http://www.vengaza.org</font><p></p>


created: 2005-04-21 11:18:31
subject: <b>Morraine, Thom, and David Hanlon</b>
body:
Thom has become more withdrawn as he broods over moraines letter. I think, like Orpheus from mythology, Thom will rescue her alone. I also think Morraine will have paid the &quot;horible price&quot; that RJ talks about for her time with the 'fin.<br /><br />David Hanlon led Ravins White Lions. Who were pummeled repeatedly by the Fledgling band after the battle of cairhain. Mat should know him by sight but it is posible that he doesn't. At the least Hanlon should have nightmares about the red hand.


created: 2005-04-21 16:00:59
subject: <b>I can't remember he met Hanlon,</b>
body:
but he overheard a conversation between him and another guy in TDR, while he snuck into the Royal Palace.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bela.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bela.gif" border="0" /> Don't even think to ask how I came up with my nick; you don't want to know <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-04-21 23:53:19
subject: <b>Have they met?</b>
body:
How does Mat know Daved Hanlon? Yes, Mat fought Rahvin's White Lions, but it was never mentioned that he came across Daved. Also in response to tDR Mat overheard a converstation between Rahvin and another noble (forgot his name and I'm at work)who Mat later killed in Tear. Rand does know Daved as a Darkfriend from when Rand and Min saw him with Fain and the rebels in CoS and Rand drew the correct conclusion about Hanlon.<br /><br />This is an interesting theory though, and a good way to get around Elayne's stubborn insistence that she doesn't need any help when any one with eyes....<br /><br />I also loved the post about the vision of the red hand that Min saw about Elayne. I tend to forget about that one, maybe because Elayne annoys me as much as everyone else.<br /><br />


created: 2005-04-22 01:43:07
subject: <b>I don't think Elayne really needs the help...</b>
body:
After all, she is secure in a fortified city, with no difficulty getting anything she needs in.  She has a tremendous advantage in mobility, and as soon as she finds out where Arymilla and her captive claimants are, she can send a force strong enough to overwhelm any one of Arymilla's divided elements.  Even if each of Arymilla's camps are stronger than all of Elayne's soldiers, Elayne can do a snatch and grab, and gateway back to the palace with a fistful of captive High Seats.  Holding rival claimants captive is an acceptable gambit with precedent in the Andoran successions.  That is undoubtedly why Elayne is so eager to learn where Arymilla and co. will be. She evidently has a detailed plan for dealing with her rivals to the throne, and for bringing her mother's recalcitrant former allies in line.  The only serious threat facing her is the Darkfriend plot, but she and the readers know, unlike Shiane and Hanlon, that there is little to chance he will be able to charm her into trusting him.  Even if that isn't necessary for the DF plot to succeed, EVERY character has a hidden threat hanging over them.  As powerful as they are, those are the only threats they have to worry about, since dealing with a threat they are fully cognizant of is a piece of cake.  I just don't see Mat figuring in the resolution of Elayne's plot.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


created: 2005-04-22 07:18:02
subject: <b>Don't think so.</b>
body:
I rather think Mat will be captured by the Seanchan at one point, after all Egwene Dreamt of a captive Mat, and brought back to Ebou Dar.<br /><br />Elayne has to deal with Andor by herself.<br /><br />Also the new Amazon synopsis (which you couldn't know when you wrote this theory) implies a different scenario for KoD than that you describe in your theory .


created: 2005-04-22 12:07:59
subject: <b>What's this Min vision?</b>
body:
Someone care to point me to this vision by Min? Page #, chapter, book, direct quote?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Husband of B.B.McGee. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/egwene.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-04-25 20:31:06
subject: <b>Very possible.</b>
body:
I fits in nicely with my theory that Mat will conquor Murandy in the next book and start making his cannons there...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-04-26 16:48:46
subject: <b>While I rather like the idea...</b>
body:
I still think that Mat will be primarily concerned with rescuing Moiraine in KOD.  Hopefully the synopsis has put to rest lingering theories that Tuon will force Mat to return to Ebou Dar... clearly she wants to stay with him on her own terms, not under the thumb of her omnipresent Truthseeker and the rigid structure of Seanchan heirarchy.<br /><br />Too much emphasis has been placed on Moiraine and the Tower of  Ghenji, and my gut tells me that there won't be room for such a drawn-out rescue sequence in the final book.  It will happen in KOD.  And while I agree that Elayne has placed more emphasis on Mat's &quot;subjecthood&quot; than on Perrin's or Rand's, I think it was more a matter of coming to terms with the fact that Mat is an important part of the Pattern and ta'veren to boot.  Elayne doesn't seem to really need any help, either.  Thanks to Birgitte, she is well aware of the DF plots within the city -- the arsons, Daved Hanlon's proximity -- and seems to have things well in hand. <br /><br />However, I agree with DomA's belief that Moridin, Cyndane, and Moggy are concentrating on the Caemlyn situation, and that things will erupt into chaos and Big Trouble for Elayne at the end of KOD.  So maybe if Mat gets Moiraine's rescue as well as his cannons wrapped up in KOD, then perhaps he will arrive to save Elayne at the beginning of Book 12.


created: 2005-04-28 21:08:40
subject: <b>I dont see it</b>
body:
Yes, I agree that Mat could technically be considered an Andoran, but will that matter to the nobles that Elayne needs around her?  No.  She cant risk alienating any more nobles, and the Band would certainly do that, especially if it flies the Dragon Banner.<br />


created: 2005-05-03 22:40:29
subject: <b>Yes, and...</b>
body:
This could open up another way for the Seanchan to stop invading every single country. Elayne could find some sort of diplomatic solution.<br /><br />Just one conflict: This would make it difficult for any showdown to occur between The Dragon Reborn and The Daughter of Nine Moons.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Incantrix <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-25 15:24:48
subject: <b>of coures you know what this means....</b>
body:
Not only would Mat be Andorian, but Rand would as well. She can hardly claim he isn't and keep the two rivers. Much more Rand's mother was her mothers cuisin, so that could be how they meet up.<br /><br />Perrin won't be helping save Moriane until his wife is safe and in his arms, and even then it will probebly take a while for him to save anyone else, but Rand and MAt could meet up at Andor. Not only would there be the thing with Elyne and Toun, but Also Rand and Toun.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Journey to the Tiger Sea,<br />Where legends die and stories be,<br />Where royalty rise and fall,<br />And Wotmania rules them all.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-27 18:39:00
subject: <b>Oh. My. Lord.</b>
body:
This theory has been driving me crazy for sooooo long.<br /><br />Why Mat? Why, why, WHY Mat?<br /><br />Think about your theory once more. Just once more. Why, exactly, do you (or anyone, really) think Mat should save Elayne?<br /><br />Because he has an army?<br />Because he made a promise?<br />Because he knows who a Darkfriend is?<br /><br />So what if he made a promise? He also made a promise to Tuon - to get her back home ASAP. To keep her safe. To keep her comfortable. And in the words of Melindhra: &quot;Some oaths are more important than others.&quot; And besides that, Mat's issues with the women were cleared up in Crown of Swords. He gained their respect, even Aviendha's, and espeically Elayne's. She was completely grateful to him when he saved her from the gholam. She won't be irritated if he tried to save her again. So what if he knows who a Darkfriend is? By the time he gets there, the whole Daved Hanlon thing would be resolved. He's planning to capture her SOON - not in a couple of weeks. And besides that, he only knows Shiaine, not Daved, and Elayne doesn't know anything about Shiaine yet. <br /><br />And as for the army?<br /><br />Well Perrin has one too. <br /><br />It surprises me that NOBODY seems to think HE will be the one to &quot;save&quot; Elayne. He has Morgase, a woman who can seriously tip the scales in Elayne's favor (if not completely) by publicly abdicating in her daughter's favor. Plus Perrin has to sort out the issue of the Red Eagle banner, as Elayne has wanted to do since she heard about it. They hardly even know each other, so it would make sense for them to meet and get to know each other a bit. Faile is with Perrin (or will be, when he rescues her) and she needs to meet up with her Saldaean Queen Tenobia and her army of Borderlanders, who just HAPPEN to be in or around Andor. And I doubt that it will come to civil war.<br /><br />Oh, and one more thing about Mat. They have no idea what happened to him, remember? I think she would be GLAD to see him alive and well instead of irritated that he came to her like he promised. He has too much to do - securing Tuon's claim to the throne, for one; marrying her, for another; inventing cannons; meeting up with the Band. All Perrin has to do is deal with the Shaido, which will happen within a few days of freeing Faile. And severed hands? Perrin's severing a lot lately; it seems to be his new hobby.


created: 2005-05-31 13:32:32
subject: <b>the occupation of mat</b>
body:
I thinkt eh reason we all think mat will come in on this is because Mat is the only one not really doing anything, who has not really been doing anything. Perrin is off saving Fail, Rand is off cleansing the source, but what is mat doing? Pretty much just moing across the country side avoiding detection. The most likely thing he will try to do is reunite with his army, because &quot;He needs them,&quot; and usually he gets what he needs, dumb Ta'varen that he is. that will put him closer to Elyne then Seanchan, and anyway Tuon wants to meet the draggon most likely, and if Rand goes there, then she will. If everyone goes to Elyne, then she will have all the help she needs, and everyone will have their loose ends tied up.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Journey to the Tiger Sea,<br />Where legends die and stories be,<br />Where royalty rise and fall,<br />And Wotmania rules them all.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-06-19 14:49:13
subject: <b>Correction</b>
body:
Mat is doing NOTHING AT THE MOMENT but has A HELL OF A LOT TO DO AFTERWARD<br /><br />Perrin is doing SOMETHING AT THE MOMENT but has NOTHING ELSE TO DO AFTERWARD


created: 2005-06-20 05:22:39
subject: <b>Alternate end</b>
body:
I doubt that the Band will fight the death guards. <br />I think that Mat will have to command a battle between the Band and the Murandy armie because the king Rheodran can't let a such force of dragonsworns in is realm even if he engaged the band support. <br />Rheodran can't hold firmly Murandy with the Band representing 40-45% of the effective military force in his realm.<br />It's will be a good thing if the death guards come right at the biginning of the battle. <br />With the PoV of Furyk Karede, the readers will have for a first time a description of Mat's superior tactique and command of battle. It will help the understanding between those 2 characters later.<br /><br />I think that Karede will die for Tuon but will entrust Tuon safety to Mat.


created: 2005-06-24 20:51:18
subject: <b>A few more things I want to mention...</b>
body:
FIRST Tuon's mission is not to find the Dragon Reborn, it's to reclaim her land. She's not going to go to him now, kidnapped and under the pretense of being a servant, with her hair growing back and her nails shorn off. Oh yes a fine picture of dignity and authority she will make, the Daughter of the Nine Moons riding around on a horse chasing after the Dragon Reborn like some lost little puppy while Suroth is parading around a false Daughter. Yes, what a wonderful way to convince the Dragon Reborn that you are just as powerful as he is and a worthy threat, when you show up looking like a drowned rat who's hiding from a cat.<br /><br />SECOND The Band of the Red Hand is Mat's army, remember? I fail to see what them flying the Banner means. Who's Tuon going to go up to when she sees the Banner to ask for Rand? The General? Oh, wait, that's Mat! Unless Talmanes is going to whisk her away in the night and bring her to Rand? Band or no Band, it makes no difference when Tuon's been with Mat the whole time. If seeing that Banner is the first time she realizes that Mat can take her to Rand, than she's a blind idiot. I can't believe the Daughter of the Nine Moons would know absolutely nothing about Rand, when everybody alive seems to know he grew up on a farm; in fact, I doubt that Tylin would have kept it from her. <br /><br />THIRD Why would Mat and the Deathwatch Guards have a battle? At this point, the Deathwatch Guards are the only ones who know who Tuon is, and that Suroth's Daughter is a fake (since the real one was kidnapped). Why would Mat wipe out Tuon's loyal bodyguard, especially when he's going to marry her?


created: 2005-07-28 01:38:53
subject: <b>Interesting...</b>
body:
Great theory.  I'll leave it at that and enjoy the bickering that follows.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" />Big Pimp of the West<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" />Destroyer of Lannisters<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gimli.gif" border="0" />Last of the Druids<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gimli.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" />&quot;This is our treaty written; This is agreement made.<br /> Thought is the arrow of time; Memory never fades.<br /> What was asked is given. The price is paid.&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-08-09 06:46:29
subject: <b>Almira</b>
body:
FIRST Tuon makes her priorities clear in WH ch14 &quot;What a Veil Hides&quot; pg373(paperback).<br /><br />&quot;I must find a way to make contact with the Dragon Reborn as soon as posible. He must kneel before the Crystal Throne before Tarmon Gai'don, or all is lost.&quot;<br /><br />SECOND and THIRD I expect the encounter between Mat and co. the DWG and the band to go like this:<br /><br />The DWG arrive and want to search the show. Luca, protected by Tuon's letter, delays them while mat gathers his crew and sneeks out the back. They won't be able to find Thom because he left the night before to take care of some personal business (Moraine and the TOG). Mat will send Oliver ahead on wind, his race horse, with the hopes that at least Oliver will escape. Mat and the others will follow after him as quick as they can and with the DWG right behind them. Just as the guards are about to catch them Oliver returs with the band. This sets up a mexican stand off where the DWG could take Mat &amp; co but doing so would get them crushed by the band. Tuon breaks the stalemate when she sees the Dragon Bannor. She demands the band take her to their leader. The band takes her to Mat. Mat points out that by turning her over to the DWG he has kept his word. They make a new bargain and travel to Camlyn togeather. On the way they put away the bannor becoming just a mercinary band under the command of an Andoran.


created: 2005-08-15 17:14:38
subject: <b>Good</b>
body:
I'm glad that I am not the only one that predicted that Mat and the Band will see some actions in Andor.<br /><br />The how and the why aren't exactly the same but Mat will be in Andor.


created: 2005-09-06 23:53:47
subject: <b>I like your theory</b>
body:
especially because if it works, the Andor politics storyline will finally end! I also like it because you posted it on my birthday. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sister to Nossy<br />Shot swapper with a_fan <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br />Bonded to Phil Reborn and Sidious<br />&quot;Mommies are like wizards&quot; ~ CVH <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br />The fact that I don't agree with you in no way means I didn't understand you.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-04-20 11:58:22
subject: <b>Not just black and white</b>
body:
Callandor is made of orange crystal cuendillar.<br />I always figured that if you used the weave on different matterials you will get different types of cuendillar.<br />Eggy is useing iron to make white cuendillar.


created: 2005-04-20 14:46:32
subject: <b>hmmzz</b>
body:
I actually tried to post sort of the same theory quite a long time ago, but mine didn't get trough.. so i agree with you.. but if there indeed is an orange form of cuendillar ( see above comment) .. then i don't know..<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">.~*Steeffie*~.<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-04-20 16:25:39
subject: <b>seems very good to me</b>
body:
where is it said that callandor is cuendillar? maybe i just forgot, but i never remember it saying its cuendillar. <br /><br />i like the theory alot.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">-Sabin<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-04-20 17:24:58
subject: <b>Heartsone vs. cuendillar</b>
body:
I am not around my books to get the references, but I know from the reference desk's wordsearch that my remembering Heartstone wasnt all in my head.  Am i mistaken in thinkinf that Heartstone is the name for black, male created cuendillar?


created: 2005-04-20 18:01:37
subject: <b>Callandor</b>
body:
In TDR Rand paries Ba'alzamon's bailfire with Calandor, only cuendillar can survive Bailfire.<br /><br />


created: 2005-04-20 18:03:59
subject: <b>I like the theory</b>
body:
I think the theory is very good.  But I thought that Callandor was made of some crystal-like stuff, and not a form of cuendillar.  I also thought that cuendillar and heartstone were the same thing, just two different names.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lan.gif" border="0" />Lan0309 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><br />Blademaster &amp; <br />Protecter of the<br />Ancient Phoenix</font><p></p>


created: 2005-04-20 19:43:16
subject: <b>Callandor (or however it's spelled)</b>
body:
I am pretty sure that Callandor is a sa'angreal as to why it is invincible to balefire i'm not too sure.  Did anyone read that Rand sliced the flows (I'm not sure myself)? <br /><br />Also Callandor is clear, like glass.  Not orange, although that would be fun <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br />


created: 2005-04-20 21:06:21
subject: <b>Pain and woe</b>
body:
Another intersting thing, which I didn't connect until now, is the pain and suffering sensed by Nynaeve in the seals (while unbroken) and the male adam....perhaps they are like the Ways in that being made by men, over the long course of years they have been corrupted by the taint?<br />Good theory!


created: 2005-04-20 22:55:36
subject: <b>Parting of Balefire</b>
body:
The reason that callandor was able to part the balefire wasn't because it is made of heartstone (it isn't) it is because of Rand channeling the power through it.  I believe this was discussed somewhat earlier, and the conclusion was that balefire can't erase the one power in its pure form.  it wasn't so much the crystal sword parting it, but the huge aura of power (undestroyable, unerasable saidin) that parted it all, thats why Rand made it flare so brightly and pulled more into it.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">-If a voice in my head is madness, I don't want to be sane.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-04-21 00:48:03
subject: <b>Cuendillar = heartstone</b>
body:
Cuendillar is heartstone. If you look up Cuendillar in the glossory of book 1 it says &quot;see heartstone.&quot;<br /><br />By the way, I would be willing to bet that Mat's ashandarei is made of male Cuendillar. It is discribed as being made of a black metal and power wrot, though not together usually. I don't know what that sounds like to you but that it sounds like black cuandillar.<br /><br />gandalf79<br />


created: 2005-04-21 13:42:16
subject: <b>Callendor</b>
body:
Thanks for the comments so far - this is the 1st theory I've sent in that was posted!<br /><br />I did a search through the books last night; I can't find anything that mentions orange colored cuendillar (didn't look as to whether callandor was cuendillar but I don't think it is).  I'm not sure how Rand parted the balefire (never gave it to much thought to be honest) but I don't think that is a property of cuendillar:<br /><br /> - When Jeaine Caide uses the black bar terangeal in the panarch's palace: &quot;The glass-walled table fell before the molten shaft vanished, leaving a purplish bar that seemed burned into Nynaeve's vision; the cuendillar figures were all that dropped out of that molten white shaft, bouncing on the floor.&quot; - the balefire did not part around the cuendillar figures, they were not harmed by it and 'fell out' of its path.<br /><br />I read elsewhere after posting this theory that the participation of women channelers in the making of the seals may have been referenced in New Spring (the novel), but I don't think anyone has addressed the male/female coloration difference before.


created: 2005-04-22 07:08:16
subject: <b>Yes, that's right</b>
body:
While after the dispute between LTT and Latra Posae, LTT realized his plan to seal the DO only with his 100 Companions, originally also female channelers should participate (so that circles could be created).<br /><br />The seals had already been constructed some time before the sealing, as we know from &quot;The Strike on Shayol Ghul&quot;.<br /><br />It just makes sense that before the dispute both genders were involved in creating the cuendillar seals, because as the books tell: <br />&quot;The greatest Aes Sedai works were always done so, joining Saidin and Saidar, as the True Source is joined.&quot;<br /><br />The problem, or the luck, was then that only male Aes Sedai carried out LTT's plan, and thus the DO could &quot;only&quot; taint saidin.


created: 2005-04-23 02:32:44
subject: <b>Callandor</b>
body:
I don't think Callandor is Cuendillar but it is probably almost indestructible like most objects of the Power.<br /><br />When Rand parts the balefire he clearly shows that he wove something which parted it. It was obviously a superstrong weave which required a sa'angreal or giant circle to make. Yet it proves that balefire can be countered if you have the strength.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">A One Power researcher<br />Defender of Lanfear<br />Grand Ninja-Nae'blis to be feared <br />Original Warder to Isa <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br />New Warder to Nossie <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />Toy to Seriana <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/winky.gif" border="0" /><br />Mystified by a Fan <br />Bonded Phelix - I was young, it happened so fast.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-04-23 13:53:37
subject: <b>Nice theory</b>
body:
Callandor is transparent crystal, and it's mentioned several times. Not cuendillar either, otherwise it would be mentioned (at least in the BWB).<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">http://www.orkut.com/Profile.aspx?uid=4841668765074332965<br /><br />&quot;It's like God gave you the tools to build a house, and the blueprint is in you. Just remember to use rubber gloves.&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2005-04-24 17:05:25
subject: <b>Great point.</b>
body:
I think that this is perfectly possible, just like Whitebridge is made of Cuendillar...<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smackhead.gif" border="0" />People are stupid. That's why it says 'Do not eat' on laundry detergent boxes.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smackhead.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-04-26 04:44:09
subject: <b>hi</b>
body:
Cuendillar is described as extremely rare, even in the AoL only a few possessed the skill to create it. Objects of the power is not the same as cuendillar, thus whitebridge for example is not made of it. Collectors and such would have known and recognized it. Its impossible for callandor to be cuendillar. For a channeler to use an sangreal he has to let the flow go through it, how is that supposed to happen with cuendillar? It absorps the flows. I dont think Rand countered the balefire (if it even was that) with the power either. In shadar logoth balefire were crossed with almost fatal results, I think the source is constant and cannot be balefired. Most likely callandor is an artifact somehow immune to balefire, or jordan made an mistake.


created: 2005-04-26 14:53:11
subject: <b>whoa</b>
body:
callendor (sp?) is orange?  why would it be orange?  i always figured it was clear.  although i always thought it was heartstone, too.  <br /><br />and i believe heartstone is just another word for cuellendar (sp??).


created: 2005-04-26 16:39:51
subject: <b>To clear some things up:</b>
body:
As to the theory, I agree.  Etzel summed up why nicely.  As for Callandor, it's described as transparent crystal -- not orange.  Nowhere is it described as orange.  Like sidious said, Rand clearly describes parting the balefire in TDR with a weave (no doubt dredged from LTT's memories).  Callandor might just be cuendillar, however.  It's never stated straight out, but there was a discussion a couple of months ago about Osan'gar thinking about seizing Callandor from the hill at the end of WH despite thinking about balefiring Rand, Nyn, the access keys, and everything else on the hill.  It's a little ambiguous, but Osan'gar's plan to clearly recklessly use balefire tends to support the thought that Callandor is made of balefire-proof material, i.e. cuendillar.


created: 2005-04-25 14:17:10
subject: <b>I'm first!</b>
body:
Cool!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perplexed.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smackhead.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /> LLT <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-04-25 14:18:04
subject:
<b>PS... Nice theory <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /></b>

body:
We loves Narg <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perplexed.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smackhead.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /> LLT <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-04-25 14:19:33
subject: <b>Haha!! that is great!!!!</b>
body:
The only thing that competes with that is a t-shirt that I saw... senor G.W.B. had a backwards hat, headphones on his neck and a turntable at his fingertips and the caption said &quot;G.W. kickin it and mixin it old school&quot;<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" />     Asha'Twan     <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br />To use no way as way, to have no limitations as limitiation.<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Lee Jun Fan<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-04-25 14:31:22
subject: <b>Narg is <i>DEAD</i></b>
body:
That's it...<u>dead</u>.  And not so smart either.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>TrippEndeavour</b><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /> <font face="Monotype Corsiva">Dovie'andi se tovya sagain!</font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /><br /><font face="Forte"><font color="580000">A</font><font color="680000">d</font><font color="780000"> </font><font color="880000">a</font><font color="980000">s</font><font color="A80000">t</font><font color="B80000">r</font><font color="C80000">a</font><font color="D80000"> </font><font color="E80000">p</font><font color="F80000">e</font><font color="E80000">r</font><font color="D80000"> </font><font color="C80000">a</font><font color="B80000">s</font><font color="A80000">p</font><font color="980000">e</font><font color="880000">r</font><font color="780000">a</font>.</font><br />&quot;Always say yes to coffee because you can always use another friend.&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2005-04-25 14:53:19
subject: <b>So True...</b>
body:
Narg must be there....I hope he does return from his temporary leave of absence...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smackhead.gif" border="0" />People are stupid. That's why it says 'Do not eat' on laundry detergent boxes.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smackhead.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-04-25 14:55:28
subject: <b>this secret history of narg...</b>
body:
...has of course been known to his followers for a very long while. it warms my heart to see it finally published, and i look forward to further tales from the remarkable life history of narg <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />for example:<br /><br />* the time he got drunk and fell off a wagon<br /><br />* the incident with the farmer's wife<br /><br />and so on...<br />


created: 2005-04-25 15:01:25
subject: <b>Smart!</b>
body:
Narg isn't smart. Narg smart!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">http://www.orkut.com/Profile.aspx?uid=4841668765074332965<br /><br />&quot;It's like God gave you the tools to build a house, and the blueprint is in you. Just remember to use rubber gloves.&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2005-04-25 15:41:20
subject: <b>Narg is dead</b>
body:
This Narg thing is like Napoleon Dynamite...it's just dumb and annoying now.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">BOOBIES</font><p></p>


created: 2005-04-25 15:43:05
subject: <b>A horrendous piece of work</b>
body:
but the most fun thing I've read for a long time.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">A One Power researcher<br />Defender of Lanfear<br />Grand Ninja-Nae'blis to be feared <br />Original Warder to Isa <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br />New Warder to Nossie <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />Toy to Seriana <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/winky.gif" border="0" /><br />Mystified by a Fan <br />Bonded Phelix - I was young, it happened so fast.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-04-25 21:21:52
subject: <b>Oh Boy! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /></b>
body:
This is annoying but it does explain Asmo's death.<br /><br />Oh Boy. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" />


created: 2005-04-25 21:51:45
subject: <b>Narg was in book 3!!!!</b>
body:
Everyone forgot one special appearance by Narg. This theory failed to note one important fact - Narg was at the Stone of Tear. Do you remember the trolloc that saves Rand's life? Narg Smart. He made his way through the ways (for he can read Ogier script - Narg Smart), and arrived just in time to help Rand, who he had come to like, for some unknown reason. He then took the ways back, arriving back in the Two Rivers just an hour before Perrin and co.<br /><br />LOL<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Asmodean is alive and posing as Sammael!<br /><br />Sammael <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sammy.gif" border="0" /> is Sparticus.<br /><br />No, I'm Sparticus! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /> = <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />I'm Herid Fel Reborn!!!!! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shy.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-04-26 06:14:36
subject: <b>Narg smart, don't know about Dan the Mage.</b>
body:
Narg not know as much as Dan think.  Lord Brend not Rahvin, Lord Brend Sammael.  Rahvin called Lord Gaebril.  Narg not exactly Herid Fel, but Narg not exactly Egwene either.  Narg know difference in Chosen's phony last names, even if both have same first name: Lord.<br />Narg maybe want Dan to stop telling wotmaniacs where Narg is.  It secret, and Creator tell when Creator want.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


created: 2005-04-26 21:14:24
subject: <b>awesome</b>
body:
I think that Dan the Mage is really RJ moonlighting as a crazy fan. He must have gotten sick of contantly telling us to RAFO<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">The Upper Peninsula...the Two Rivers of this world... <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-04-27 01:45:16
subject: <b>******ssshhhhhhh.............</b>
body:
******you weren't supposed to tell!!!!****** <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />


created: 2005-04-27 17:46:27
subject: <b>Yes...</b>
body:
Narg good. We not get rid opf Narg theory...Narg smart.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smackhead.gif" border="0" />People are stupid. That's why it says 'Do not eat' on laundry detergent boxes.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smackhead.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-04-30 13:01:17
subject: <b>Hmmm.</b>
body:
<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smackhead.gif" border="0" /> Why didn't I think of that?  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Who we were is lost to all men, and life is bitter.&quot;<br />&quot;Expect nothing, and you will not be surprised.&quot;  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-13 19:51:22
subject: <b>NARG!!!</b>
body:
NARG!!! NARG SMART!!! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">A team is only as good as its worst player. That would be me. <br />Proud Collaborator of the imaginary band Dumai's Wells<br />boys can dream... Girl's dreams come true.<br />Mat is not a bloody lord. However, I am <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /><br />Resident Mat Worshipper <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /><br />~GMR</font><p></p>


created: 2005-09-09 00:37:08
subject: <b><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /></b>
body:
gotta love Narg!!!!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sister to Nossy<br />Shot swapper with a_fan <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br />Bonded to Phil Reborn and Sidious<br />&quot;Mommies are like wizards&quot; ~ CVH <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br />The fact that I don't agree with you in no way means I didn't understand you.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-10-04 22:19:10
subject: <b>Narg Smart.</b>
body:
What people fail to realize is that Narg also wrote several books in his time, and was Mr. Fel's most influential instructor. As a matter of fact, it is theorized that he was the genius who founded the no-hoods-in-the-borderlands law, and that he may actually be a chaneller, which would explain much of his fabled exploits...


created: 2009-01-25 04:41:12
subject: <b>Narg freed bela</b>
body:
Yes. Narg has to be the most influential character aside from the three ta'veren. It was he who freed Bela. Unfortunately despite her waiting past the appointed time, Rand did not know where he was supposed to meet her. A simple matter of miscommunication. So she had to go back to the village on her own to find a rescue party. Rand did eventually make his way there on his own rendering her efforts moot. She was however in place for her next role. Getting Egwene out of the Two rivers.<br />I'm convinced. The entire story does revolve around a conspiracy between Bela and Narg. Bela acting in the open and Narg planning things out from behind the scenes.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Is this in the Old Tongue?<br />&quot;Bah weep graaagnah wheep ni ni bong!&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2005-04-28 11:23:01
subject: <b>Maybe</b>
body:
I can see the similarities but how is someone having toh towards someone else explained by this?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Liverpool FC<br />Champions League Winners 2004/05<br />You'll Never Walk Alone</font><p></p>


created: 2005-04-28 12:27:56
subject: <b>Interesting but</b>
body:
<br />AS don't get &quot;spanked&quot; in public, they can be flogged. Spanking is an entirely different thing altogether, but since this is a family site I can't elaborate on it.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">In no particular order:<br /><br />Rav<br />Belal's Girl<br />Lady Isa<br />Phil Reborn<br /><br />It was nice.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-04-28 12:29:33
subject: <b>I like it.</b>
body:
I'm not so sure about the connection between ji'e'toh and Aes Sedai rules, but I definitely think you are right about the rigidity of the system being a guilt reaction to their previous failure.


created: 2005-04-28 13:19:35
subject: <b>I agree</b>
body:
There are many similarities between Ji'e'toh and the Way of the Leaf. In my opinion , Ji'e'toh is like a wish to be like the Dashain.<br /><br />Despite their militant ways , look at how the Aiel would rather touch someone and capture them than kill them. Or that the wildest warrior can become a meek gashain who would never lift a weapon even if their lives depended on it.<br /><br />It resonates of that extreme behaviour the Dashain used to do and it probably stems from their guilt towards the Aes Sedai. Honour is a major aspect of Aiel life and one feels that they consider themselves dishonoured for their original sins and must continually strive to improve themselves.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">A One Power researcher<br />Defender of Lanfear<br />Grand Ninja-Nae'blis to be feared <br />Original Warder to Isa <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br />New Warder to Nossie <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />Toy to Seriana <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/winky.gif" border="0" /><br />Mystified by a Fan <br />Bonded Phelix - I was young, it happened so fast.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-04-28 14:32:29
subject: <b>Nice Idea</b>
body:
I think that it is a keen observation that the Aiel have embraced the extreme of what was not allowed, such as the way Aram has changed. However, I don't think that it came from the Aes Sedai &quot;honor&quot;, because from what I can find, Aes Sedai never punish themselves to relieve the shame, but to decrease the penace that would normally be handed out.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;What do you mean, why's it got to be built?&quot; he said. &quot;It's a bypass. You've got to build bypasses.&quot; - Mr Prosser, head builder</font><p></p>


created: 2005-04-28 15:09:09
subject: <b>Its pretty obvious that....</b>
body:
Despite the fact that most Aiel dont know it, j'ietoh did inded come out of the giult felt, and that it is their own personal atonement.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Bonded to Mika<br />Nossredna's Siamese twin  (I'm the handsome one)<br />Bodyguard to Packersfan52<br />Best Bowling Buddies with Pseudo <br /><br />Proud member of the BBQ<br /><br />Perrin looks like a ninja:<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perrin.gif" border="0" />!</font><p></p>


created: 2005-04-28 16:49:47
subject: <b>There are ji and toh</b>
body:
Unfortunately, your theory touches only <i>toh</i> part of <i>ji'e'toh</i>. But what about &lt;j&gt;ji&lt;/i&gt;? <br /><br />No, I don't think that <i>ji'e'toh</i> comes from coying Aes Sedai rules. Besides, it's not about just punishing for something, like among Aes Sedai. You have to <b>meet</b> your <i>toh</i>. And you have to have enough &lt;j&gt;ji&lt;/i&gt; for that.<br /><br />Well, it's too complicated... <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />


created: 2005-04-28 17:14:25
subject: <b>In NS we see...</b>
body:
Examples of sisters taking on pennance to deal with their personal balance of honor and shame. Moiraine tells us that she will not become one of those sisters, but that does let us know they exist. They could be the last of a long tradition of Aes Sedai balancing their life between honor and shame.<br /><br />Also, Demonsthenes:<br /><br />Moiraine does take a pennance for no other reason than her own personal shame. When she finds that her uncles have died, and she feels little to nothing for them, she forces herself to go without dinner because &quot;one should feel for the dead.&quot;<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Warder to Be'lal's Girl<br />Wotmania Lottery<br /><br /><br /><br />&quot;Meh. A good relationship is like fireworks: loud, explosive, and liable to maim you if you hold on too long.&quot; ~ Sven, Questionable Content<br /><br />Bonded by Sidious. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-04-28 18:22:47
subject: <b>The Tower is younger than the Aiel</b>
body:
I would be careful drawing connections between the White Tower and the Aiel. - When the first Aiel picked up the spear, there wasn't a White Tower, yet. And I think - though I'm not sure - those AS who stayed with the D'shain Aiel were not Tower afiliated, but survivors from before the breaking. At least they looked extremly old in the last memory.<br />An general Aiel guilt complex makes more sense to me.<br />


created: 2005-04-28 18:50:36
subject: <b>While the Aiel are older than the Tower...</b>
body:
both have roots in the original Aes Sedai structure. The women who founded the Tower were appentice Aes Sedai, the Aiel were the remnants of the Aiel who served all Aes Sedai. They could easily both have taken the root concepts of AoL honor and morphed it into their current ideas.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Warder to Be'lal's Girl<br />Wotmania Lottery<br /><br /><br /><br />&quot;Meh. A good relationship is like fireworks: loud, explosive, and liable to maim you if you hold on too long.&quot; ~ Sven, Questionable Content<br /><br />Bonded by Sidious. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-04-29 10:56:08
subject: <b>The history of the Aiel</b>
body:
Ji'e'Toh is a slow historical perversion of the way of the leaf, not something that was invented overnight.<br /><br />I think it is most likely that Ji'e'Toh is rigid because the Aeil have always been the type to follow rigid codes.  The way of the leaf is very strict, and when they were forced to abandon it to defend themselves, those Aeil kept making strict guidelines of behavior that were adjustments to the way they already lived: i.e. no one uses a weapon that cannot be used for something else (spears are used equally for hunting and fighting, but swords are disgusting).<br /><br />Gaishain is a system developed to keep killing to a minimum really. there is a built in system for someone to defeat someone else without harming the other person or themselves.  while the Aeil are violent individually there society still has structures in place that come from their history... and their history points to their people loving strict codes of conduct.<br /><br />


created: 2005-04-29 14:45:47
subject: <b>Hmmmmm........</b>
body:
There are Aes Sedai who balance honor and shame, which is a very good thing, but there are also normal people who do so; I just have dificulty seeing the honor-shame balance enough for the Aiel to base their entire culture and lifestyle on a select few Aes Sedai.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;What do you mean, why's it got to be built?&quot; he said. &quot;It's a bypass. You've got to build bypasses.&quot; - Mr Prosser, head builder</font><p></p>


created: 2005-04-29 15:28:27
subject: <b>They're not basing their culture on the few Aes Sedai</b>
body:
Most of &quot;modern&quot; WoT culture is based on AoL culture, ideas of honor, beauty, etc. The thing is, it's been muddied, watered down, and made into new things in each culture. The Aiel could easily have based their ji'e'toh on the honor code of the AoL Aes Sedai, and the modern Aes Sedai who balance their honor and shame do so because it is a fading tradition that comes from the original AoL Aes Sedai.<br /><br />It could very well be that in the AoL the Aes Sedai lived by a variant of ji'e'toh which their servants the Aiel were able to observe. Thus, the Aiel were able to maintain a more intact version of it than what the apprentice Aes Sedai who founded the White Tower were able to.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Warder to Be'lal's Girl<br />Wotmania Lottery<br /><br /><br /><br />&quot;Meh. A good relationship is like fireworks: loud, explosive, and liable to maim you if you hold on too long.&quot; ~ Sven, Questionable Content<br /><br />Bonded by Sidious. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-04-29 18:31:11
subject: <b>Not enough</b>
body:
There are suspiscious clues to how Aes Sedai might have mantianed an honor system, but the facts still point away. In the earliest tower records say that the tower was a very dangerous place, with powerfull undrcurrents. Judging by the way that the Aiel hate plotting, they didn't absorb all of the Aes Sedai ways. <br /><br />Yes, the tower was constructed after the first Aiel turned to the spear, but the Aes Sedai honor system doesn't fit with the plotting. Also, the way that the Aiel despise the tinkers, and the fact that no Aiel will take up a sword points to a different conclusion. There isn't enough evidence to solidly claim that the Aes Sedai had an honor system (though with Robert Jordan, nothing is for certain), nor to support a Tinker derived Aiel culture, but the little evidence left behind could be either, or both.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;What do you mean, why's it got to be built?&quot; he said. &quot;It's a bypass. You've got to build bypasses.&quot; - Mr Prosser, head builder</font><p></p>


created: 2005-04-29 21:23:48
subject: <b>The Tower wasn't founded by full Aes Sedai</b>
body:
<font size="-1"><b>There are suspiscious clues to how Aes Sedai might have mantianed an honor system, but the facts still point away. In the earliest tower records say that the tower was a very dangerous place, with powerfull undrcurrents. Judging by the way that the Aiel hate plotting, they didn't absorb all of the Aes Sedai ways. </b></font><br /><br />The Aes Sedai maintained an Honor system, but the girls who were mainly trained on the run, or might have had a little schooling in the AoL system, probably didn't understand the whole system. For that matter, they might have understood very little of it, and tried to ape it.<br /><br />The Aiel, however, lived with the AoL Aes Sedai, and would have taught any kind of honor system they (the aiel) used to their children.<br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Yes, the tower was constructed after the first Aiel turned to the spear, but the Aes Sedai honor system doesn't fit with the plotting. Also, the way that the Aiel despise the tinkers, and the fact that no Aiel will take up a sword points to a different conclusion. There isn't enough evidence to solidly claim that the Aes Sedai had an honor system (though with Robert Jordan, nothing is for certain), nor to support a Tinker derived Aiel culture, but the little evidence left behind could be either, or both. </b></font><br /><br />The Aiel never derived their culture from the tinkers, I don't know where that idea's coming from. The two groups split, and neither would have anything to do with the other. However, I think all the evidence points to an honor system in the AoL that Aes Sedai at least tried to hold to, that their servants would have known about and possibly followed as well, and one that the girls who founded the Tower might not have known about.<br /><br />Think about it. The women who came to Tar Valon were trained during the Breaking. They lost a lot of the knowledge that AoL Aes Sedai had and they were raised in a time where everyone was fighting for survival, from the world that was Breaking around them, from the remnants of the Forsaken, and from others wanting to kill them for some kind of benefit.<br /><br />Of course they would develop ways to survive, and plotting happens to be a very good way to do so. <br /><br />I think, though, that a person could rationalize plotting within their code of Honor. Especially if after each plot that was less than honorable resulted in a private pennance. The Aes Sedai would make her plots, watch them succeed, and then pay a personal, private pennance to redress the balance. If they failed, the failure itself was balance.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Warder to Be'lal's Girl<br />Wotmania Lottery<br /><br /><br /><br />&quot;Meh. A good relationship is like fireworks: loud, explosive, and liable to maim you if you hold on too long.&quot; ~ Sven, Questionable Content<br /><br />Bonded by Sidious. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-04-30 07:37:33
subject: <b>Honor has nothing to do with Aes Sedai</b>
body:
From Rand's ter'angreal PoV, there was no memory of the AoL among the Aiel, and they had even started to get it wrong before they set out on their &quot;mission&quot; from the Aes Sedai.  Also, the ethos of the AoL and especially the Aes Sedai, revolved around service to others and society (NOT warrior societies, so don't even bother with that argument).  <br /><br />The bemusement of various wetlanders with ji'e'toh is one indication that the Aiel have nothing to do with the AoL system of values.  And to be fair to the Aiel, how are you going to expect people in such a harsh environment to hold to such philanthropic values?  <br />Barbarian cultures, people from war-like societies (i.e. the Borderlands), or from very violent cultures ALWAYS have highly developed codes of honor and formal manners.  It is simple societal survival of the fittest.  People develop formal modes of behavior so there are fewer misunderstandings and less chance of people who are warriors by necessity getting into fights.  Look at how the Borderlands' disagreements over whether or not Rand was the Dragon Reborn devolved into minor civil war.  This is a military culture, where almost everyone learns to handle weapons, and are constantly thinking about, and preparing for war (if your tool is a hammer, everything looks like a nail: if you are armed and ready for war, it seems like the best method of resolving a dispute).  The Aiel are even worse, and they have more to fight about: remember what the Wise Ones use the 'need' searching for - to find new settlement sites when a hold grows too large.  They are an expanding population in a land of very scarce resources.  And their numbers were growing rapidly BEFORE they came to the Waste, despite constant hostility from settled people (and to be fair to them, if you were an isolated community would you be happy about thousands of armed men traveling through your lands? ), and a truly mobile society (most nomads simply follow the herds from winter grazing to summer pasture and back, rather than really traveling as the Aiel did and Tinkers do), which makes the practice of agriculture difficult.   So the Aiel lifestyle has always been hard, with scarce resources and a constant danger of violence.  Thus the creation of rules of conduct to ensure they don't kill each other in non-profit combat situations (i.e. in casual encounters and within the sept and clan).  An example might be the Cold War.  The prospect of war between the USA &amp; the USSR and their allies/subjects would almost certainly involve nuclear weapons, to the detriment of all, so for the first time in nearly 2000 years, there was no combat in Europe.  Aiel politeness is due to the same line of reasoning.  As evidenced by Aviendha's last PoV, Aiel are willing to die if necessary, but would prefer not to for bad reasons.  Since fellow Aiel are highly skilled in combat, they are careful to avoid starting a fight unless honor, water or financial gain is at stake.<br />Which leads us to honor.  In a barbarian culture (i.e. one from a land of scarce resources), honor becomes paramount, because cooperation is essential for survival.  Either you need help to properly exploit what resources are available, or you need allies to help you keep what belongs to you, to take what you need from someone else.  The point is you HAVE to be able to trust the people around you.  Thus the concept of a code of honor.  If this guy always keeps his word, you can count on his help when he promises it, and you can risk your life to help him, knowing you will get the same in return.  There simply are not enough resources to waste on outsiders or untrustworthy countrymen.  Later on, with the development of society to the point of having law, and more importantly, law enforcement, people have legal recourse to turn to rather than having to fight for every single thing they get, and thus they no longer need allies and don't need the concept of honor quite as much.  If you can take your grievances to the local lord, or the king's magistrate or to a judge, you don't worry about how honorable someone is before making a contract.  In a way, civilization is more dependant on force than barbarism, since a dishonorable barbarian is simply cut off from support and society, while civilization counts on government force to back up its rules.  (And on a side note, the idea of gaining more honor by non-violent touching of an armed opponent is not unique to the Aiel.  American Indians practiced a similar form of gaining status in combat, called 'counting coo.'  I'm not sure if that is spelled right, but that is how it is pronounced.  It has more honor, because it is more difficult and dangerous than striking a killing blow, not out of some pacifist guilt, as someone above implied. )<br /><br />The Aes Sedai, in contrast to this, have the Oath Rod.  They don't need to be have honorably, since they have automatic trust.  If they can convinvce someone they have no hidden meanings in their words, they will be believed, regardless of how deceitful they have been.  We know of at least two loyal allies of the Tower destroyed by the Shadow - Manetheren and Malkier.  The one was betrayed by the Amyrlin due to a personal grudge (the joys of an Aes Sedai queen - Tower politics and Ajah rivalries will destroy your homeland), and the Aes Sedai failed to save the other, and were able to cover up their failure by pretending they hadn't tried.  How is that better PR (which Moiraine ascribes as the reason for their pretense of not helping)?  Even in a situation where people KNOW the leader can't do anything, they are reassured by his or her efforts.  The benefit to the Tower of having the Three Oaths is you don't need to keep your commitments to be trusted.  You weasel your way out of anything and it doesn't matter, because thanks to the First Oath, they can regain trust anytime they want it.  Look at the way they negotiated with the Shaido.  Coiren said &quot;Your service deserves what you ask.&quot;  In other words, she thought their request was reasonable, but she left herself an out by not promising anything.  Even though they had no intention of cheating the Shaido, and eventually did fulfil their bargain, they went into it making preparations to break their deal!  That is not what anyone would call negotiating in good faith.  Any nation that failed its allies the way Tar Valon does, or set themselves up to avoid being bound to give aid would quickly become a pariah.  Not only that, the idea was for the &quot;servants of all&quot; to set savages loose on the population of one the countries the Tower claims authority over, in order to cover the flight of the &quot;servants&quot; with their kidnapping victim.  The point isn't that their actions in LoC were so bad, but the fact that this is how they have been operating for 3000 years.  Only the Aes Sedai could conduct international politics this way, and be assured of trust.  Anyone else who tried that would have to rule through overwhelming strength.<br /><br />I think it is safe to say that beyond embracing the concept of punishment for wrongdoing, there is little common origin between the codes of conduct for Aes Sedai and for Aiel, or between the origin of ji'e'toh and any sort of rules governing the behavior of Aes Sedai.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-02 15:35:15
subject: <b>Mybe I`m out on a limb here . . .</b>
body:
Isn`t it possible that this is simply one thing that RJ felt was an ingrained human trait, and not a twisted form of traditionalism. Lets think outside of RJ`s little box. Maybe instead of being warped Aes Sedai punishments it is human nature. The Aiel live in the waste, where everything is harsh, violent, and potentialy deadly, even other people. Maybe the concept of Ji-eh-Toh is a form of social control created within the culture itself as a way of keeping some level of safety in a world where it`s hard to find any safety. The conspet of honor and obligation assures that people don`t act out in unwanted ways. Sure, it`s become warped, and oversensetive as time has gone on, but most rules will with a few thousand years.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Lugh of the Vanth<br />Prince of Coolavin<br />Lord of the Darmods<br /><br />&quot;If you must mount the gallows, give a jest to the crowd, a coin to the hangman, and make the drop with a smile on your lips.&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-21 21:13:45
subject: <b>Ji'e'toh.</b>
body:
I think your right, about the shame thing, but probebly not exactly right about the whole copying the Aes Sedie. For one thing, we see them in the waggons, where their still the true Aeil. I think if it where for failing the Aes Sedia even the true Aeil would have fallowed it. I think it is exactly and compleatly for breaking away from the way of the leaf. In the same way as they start wearing the viels to kill, they start trying to gain a system of honor, because they feel they have lost theirs. They hide their faces because the mother threw them out and said I don't recognize you anymore, so when they kill they make it so none can recognize them, do they not, in the same way, viel their honor so none will see its loss?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Journey to the Tiger Sea,<br />Where legends die and stories be,<br />Where royalty rise and fall,<br />And Wotmania rules them all.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-10-03 23:51:25
subject: <b>ji'e'toh or Way of the Leaf?</b>
body:
I don't know, it just kind of occured to me while reading your post that when someone pays off their honor debt, they are meek and humble and don't lift a hand against others, yes?  Not even in battle, yes?  So, maybe somehow the Way was preserved.  So, when they failed the Aes Sedai, or, rather, when some Aiel picked up spears in defense, they decided to use the Way to pay off the honor debt.  Maybe not right off.  Maybe it was adobted later on when they made the whole ji'e'toh thing.  I don't know.  Maybe that's also how the different societies came to be.  Maybe they had a certain 'society' to defend the women and children or something, and then, when the world broke and the Waste became the Waste, they made a 'society' for water seekers and such.  And it just evolved into what is there 'today.'  Let me know what you think... and also if I got anything wrong... I'm on book four my second time through the series (I have 8 days to make it through books 5-9), and I'm realizing more and more that I missed the first time, and making more and more connections that I missed the first time.


created: 2005-04-28 18:04:52
subject: <b>Well...</b>
body:
This is something that I have never really thought of before, and although some of your arguments are a stretch, they do merit some thought. But I do not think that this is because RJ hasn't thought through this. From what I can tell he is pretty much obsessive about getting details straight.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">The Upper Peninsula...the Two Rivers of this world... <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-04-28 18:30:16
subject: <b>The A'dam works only on Channelers not on those who can learn!</b>
body:
The trick about the Sul'dam is that the A'dam works only on women who have already learned to channel. <br /> - And it obviously must be closed around a body part to work, otherwise Elayne wouldn't have been able to study it. And Mat only had to open it. Not to remove it, in order to free the windfinder.


created: 2005-04-28 18:48:08
subject: <b>Arilind</b>
body:
It works on women who have a connection to the source. Damane have the spark, which is a natural connection that will manifest itself sooner or later. Women who can learn have the ability to connect to the source, but no connection until they're taught, or in Sul'dam's cases, they develop that connection from constant exposure to the channeling of their damane.<br /><br />We've seen sul'dam bound by the a'dam, therefore they a'dam can bind leaners, as long as they have built that connection.<br /><br />As for my opinions on the theory, I agree that the a'dam catches onto a person's thoughts, but I think it must be circled around a person's neck to work. We see something similar with the three oaths. The Oath Rod binds a person, but the bounds themselves are worked into the bones of the person. The oath perceives what the person is going to say/do and stops them if the action will violate the oath.<br /><br />The a'dam could easily be a ter'angreal that institutes the effects of the oath rod (ie catching a person's thoughts to see if their future actions will violate their oath/orders). Where the oath rod swears you to a specific set of oaths, the a'dam binds you to follow the orders of your leash holder.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Warder to Be'lal's Girl<br />Wotmania Lottery<br /><br /><br /><br />&quot;Meh. A good relationship is like fireworks: loud, explosive, and liable to maim you if you hold on too long.&quot; ~ Sven, Questionable Content<br /><br />Bonded by Sidious. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-04-28 19:02:33
subject: <b>I like the idea that it mimics the Oath Rod.</b>
body:
I enjoyed this theory...it got me to think about something I hadn't thought about too much before.<br /><br />Here are some comments:<br />First, however obsessive RJ may be about WoT, that doesn't make him a biologist.  This wouldn't be the first time he's kinda fluffed over biology.  Mind you, this doesn't really bother me so much, but all the same, you make good critique, redqueen, that RJ may not have thought through all the details.<br /><br />So there seems to be something special about the neck, and only the skin of the neck touching the inside of collar, and only when the collar is closed on said neck skin.  Maybe the a'dam needs to be near the jugular vein, but not the femoral vein?<br /><br />Yet we shouldn't get too caught up on this...after all, the many-ringed angreal that Nynaeve sports (and gives to Alivia) seems specific to the hand (one wonders whether it could work if worn on the foot, I guess).<br /><br />Anyway, I don't think it picks up &quot;brain waves&quot;, unless psionic emanations actually exist in Randland.  Rather, it uses the neck as a conduit of some kind.  I like Phelix's idea that it mimics the Oath Rod, which can also pick up on intentions in a way which may or may not defy the laws of Earth physics.<br /><br />Thanks for introducing a new idea to talk about!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Live as if you were living for the second time and had acted as wrongly the first time as you are about to act now.  -VF</font><p></p>


created: 2005-04-28 19:39:32
subject: <b>Good point...</b>
body:
Comet Sedai, what you say makes a lot of sense.<br /><br />*bows out*<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">The Upper Peninsula...the Two Rivers of this world... <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-04-28 20:06:59
subject: <b>Interesting. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /></b>
body:
<br />One thought I have about why the a'dam only works when clasped around the neck is that perhaps there is some kind of field of effect inside the collar. Perhaps the spinal cord has to inside the field for the collar to work. Who knows? It's an interesting thing to think about though.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">In no particular order:<br /><br />Rav<br />Belal's Girl<br />Lady Isa<br />Phil Reborn<br /><br />It was nice.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-04-28 22:44:42
subject: <b>They make it to work only on the neck</b>
body:
It's a lot safer for the Seanchan to collar around the neck.  A Damane collared around the arm or leg could escape a lot easier than one collared around the neck.  In the middle of battle, I'm sure a lot of Damane lose limbs all the time.  If the collar was around one of those limbs then you would have a free Damane who is probably not too pleased with the Seanchan army.  If you were collared around the neck, however, you can't do much if your head gets blown off.  I think it's simply another safety precaution the Seanchan took.


created: 2005-04-29 09:03:41
subject: <b>I think that common sense implies...</b>
body:
...that the neck is the only place that you can assure that something you put on someone against their will shall not inadvertently fall off. Is't that why &quot;stocks&quot; were created in the dark ages? A bracelet can slip off, on the thigh or arms something can be removed using another object like a stick or rubbing against something. As mentioned earlier in a post, if the head is not atttached a necklace can come off. Whether he is right or wrong, boring or not, RJ rarely makes errors of this caliber,


created: 2005-04-29 12:21:18
subject: <b>mimics the oath rod ?</b>
body:
But the adam does not give control over the damanes actions. It only alows the sul'dam to give pain enough to make the damane obey.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Taking responsibility drains all the fun out of live and dries a man to dust.<br /><br /> - Mat Caughton<br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-04-29 13:04:53
subject: <b>skin contact is probably much more of a factor</b>
body:
than you have let on. For instance, when Rand <b><i>touches</i></b> the collars of the damane Aviendha and he encounter, Aviendha senses power &quot;flooding&quot; into the damane, and slaps his hand off, telling him that he could have killed them....<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> &quot;I'm the D.O.&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /> &quot;No I am&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rand.gif" border="0" /> &quot;KILL THEM!&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /> &quot;You can't possibly win!&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" />*smirks* &quot;Ya wanna make a bet???&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perrin.gif" border="0" /> *mutters* &quot;stupid axe&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/avi.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/min.gif" border="0" /> &quot;YOU CAN DO IT!&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2005-04-29 14:41:08
subject: <b>A'dam purpose</b>
body:
As we all know, every ter'angreal has a specific purpose and function or functions. Even the slight deviation while making the angreal could lead inadvertent disaster, for example, in the making of the ter'angreal dreamwalking rings. It is mentioned that even if Elayne made an incorrect color, the item could be useless, or have unexpected responses.<br />     Therefore, the a'dam was made with the purpose of putting the leash on the damane's neck, and the bracelet was meant to be worn on the wrist. When these ter'angreal are worn properly, the result is that the sul'dam is able to convey feelings to the damane. One such example is when Nynaeve makes moghedien feel certain types of pain, such as being switched. <br />     In order to make such a specific and detailed invention, the inventor must have a thorough knowledge of making ter'angreal. I AM NOT saying that one of the forsaken devised the damane, only stating that the maker would have an in-depth skill.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;What do you mean, why's it got to be built?&quot; he said. &quot;It's a bypass. You've got to build bypasses.&quot; - Mr Prosser, head builder</font><p></p>


created: 2005-04-29 15:22:36
subject: <b>Zeren</b>
body:
The a'dam does control the actions of the Damane. It prevents her from moving it, it prevents her from thinking about harming her sul'dam, and it prevents her from trying to un-lock the a'dam. If that's not controlling the actions, I don't know what is.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Warder to Be'lal's Girl<br />Wotmania Lottery<br /><br /><br /><br />&quot;Meh. A good relationship is like fireworks: loud, explosive, and liable to maim you if you hold on too long.&quot; ~ Sven, Questionable Content<br /><br />Bonded by Sidious. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-04-30 01:44:10
subject: <b>Picking a hole!!!!</b>
body:
Okay, my personal opinion on it is that it only works with the neck because of its proximity to the brain, and the fact that the spinal cord is there.  I believe the problem with somebody opening the collar if they're wearing it is that it is set up to mess with anybody TOUCHING it if they're wearing it.  You can touch any part of the thing, as long as you don't touch near the clasp, because that triggers it, IMHO.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Toad D-Manz <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/crazy.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-04-30 07:47:13
subject: <b>I agree about the spinal cord...</b>
body:
That was my though for the answer to the location issue, although the people arguing for the neck's security make a good case.  Does the Oath Rod work if you hold it with your toes or between your teeth, or under your armpit?  If there was a small enough angreal, could you swallow it, and always have its strength handy?  Or could you tuck it into a &quot;crevice&quot; and have a fellow channeler say &quot;Wow, you've just got strength coming out your @ss?&quot;  How about surgically implanting angreal?  Cadsuane's doo-hickies hang from a bun on her head, and that seems to be contact enough.  <br />I would imagine that closing the collar is the trigger for its effect.  Since wards seem to &quot;magically&quot; know what the channeler who sets them wants, maybe it is the act of closing a binding device or a shackle that triggers the effect.  Maybe you could close it on a leg, but since you wouldn't call that person bound securely, the a'dam wouldn't work.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-01 01:49:47
subject: <b>wait a second....</b>
body:
During Rand's fight with Rhavin, in TFoH, Nynaeve successfully collars Moghedien, but then when [rand I belive it was] arrives, she remakes it without the bracelet. If it was so detailed and such things, that even the slightest change (i.e. not being affixed to the <b>neck</b>) would render it useless, then I don't see how it would have been possible for Moghedien to have remained under the influence of the A'dam... Logically, the only reason why the Seanchan always use the neck, is because the things are <i>made</i> as &quot;collars&quot; (big fat duh) and as such, they <b><i>fit</i></b> the best there, and <b>NOT</b> because they have to go there!!!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> &quot;I'm the D.O.&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /> &quot;No I am&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rand.gif" border="0" /> &quot;KILL THEM!&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /> &quot;You can't possibly win!&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" />*smirks* &quot;Ya wanna make a bet???&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perrin.gif" border="0" /> *mutters* &quot;stupid axe&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/avi.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/min.gif" border="0" /> &quot;YOU CAN DO IT!&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-01 06:17:04
subject: <b>localization = no thx</b>
body:
yeah i doubt it's that strongly localized as in you gotta stick it on the neck for it to work. You don't have to touch angreal to draw through them. It would be a very complex terangreal that would work only around the neck (definately out of the technological reach of trolloc wars aes sedai) &amp; yeah as others have said, a lot could go wrong that doesn't.<br /><br />I doubt oath rods have to be touched either. It's prolly just the channeling through them<br /><br />So how do you reconcile this with the fact that they've been running around with angreal all this time? Personally I don't know. I'd have to read the details a bit more.


created: 2005-05-01 07:05:26
subject: <b>But</b>
body:
Elayne makes an A'dam as her first Ter'angreal &quot;project&quot;. She makes it perfectly and has a good understanding of it's function. Shurely they cannot be all that sophisticated. When she later creates simple things such as invisibility discs (It would be simple as she already knew the trick), she fails most of the time. I doubt that the a'dam needs proximity to the brain. Compare it with other ter'angreal that changes behaviour. The Oath rod doesn't need proximit to the brain. Neather does the Chair of Remorse or Elaynes rod thing (ineresting, that). I think it would just need to touch your skin so that it can operate at the borders of YOU. However, It would be easier to escape if it was handheld or tiesd around a foot. Moreover, the A'dam doesn't restrict youy from harming your Sul'dam. It just gives back the exact pain amplified by a factor of 2. You can't weild things you think of as weapons though.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Topace_III<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/seanchan.gif" border="0" /><br />Proud property of some Seanchan lord.<br />I just CAN'T remember his name....<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-02 15:22:14
subject: <b>Contact.</b>
body:
The collar around the neck isn`t, in my opinion, important to the use of the a`dam. It`s a psycological thing. The leash-and-collar setup is very submissive. The a`dam was created to enslave Aes`Sedai in the time of Hawkwing <br />(well, his son really). So, to humiliate, and to break the will of the wearer you put them into a humiliating position, such as the collar. It`s very dog-like, subserviant. Mayhaps contact has to be made all the way around the inside of the collar, or at least close contact. No one has TRIED it on someone`s thigh, so who knows, it may work. Why would someone want to try it on someone else`s thigh. We all seem to be assuming that it WOULDN`T work around a thigh, or some other body part. I do like the oath rod comparison. Though that also brings up other things. Aes`Sedai captured and enslaved attack with the power . . . I believe. Does the A`dam nulify the oath rod effects?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Lugh of the Vanth<br />Prince of Coolavin<br />Lord of the Darmods<br /><br />&quot;If you must mount the gallows, give a jest to the crowd, a coin to the hangman, and make the drop with a smile on your lips.&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-03 20:25:36
subject: <b>RJ answered this</b>
body:
In a Q&amp;A, I think.  A leashed modern-day Aes Sedai is indeed unable to use the Power as a weapon because of the Oaths.  So AS damane are indeed useless as weapons.  But they can be compelled to use the Power to do things like mine for ores, make SkyLights (whatever that is), construct non-weaponry, iron, weave, wash dishes, and mow the lawn.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Live as if you were living for the second time and had acted as wrongly the first time as you are about to act now.  -VF</font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-03 20:59:45
subject: <b>Mow the lawn?</b>
body:
<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Warder to Be'lal's Girl<br />Wotmania Lottery<br /><br /><br /><br />&quot;Meh. A good relationship is like fireworks: loud, explosive, and liable to maim you if you hold on too long.&quot; ~ Sven, Questionable Content<br /><br />Bonded by Sidious. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-04 12:43:01
subject: <b>The simplest explanation is usually best.</b>
body:
The adam probably only exerts it control over women that are touching the inside when it is clasped. The Sul'dam most likely carry the extra ones unclasped. The leash helps in battle know exactly when the damane you are linked to is and it is around the neck so it won't fall off. I am sure there are psychological aspects to the leash and collar set up as well. Note the changing of damane names to that of a favorite pet as was threatened to Egwene in tGH. But I was wondering who makes those adam terangreal for the seanchan. Can they make other as Elayne has discovered how to do?


created: 2005-05-04 20:18:06
subject: <b>Trin28</b>
body:
Damane make the a'dam. Egwene's sul'dam tells her she might be one of the lucky ones who can make a'dam, and as such she'd be sent to Seandar.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Warder to Be'lal's Girl<br />Wotmania Lottery<br /><br /><br /><br />&quot;Meh. A good relationship is like fireworks: loud, explosive, and liable to maim you if you hold on too long.&quot; ~ Sven, Questionable Content<br /><br />Bonded by Sidious. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-06 10:47:27
subject: <b>Brain Waves</b>
body:
I believe the collar must be around the neck because the vacinity to the brain, it would work like a lie detector, when you know/think you are doing something you are not ment to or believe it wont work then certain effects take place, such as different brain-waves, blood pressure and your pulse, it would be the same with the oath rod because in one of the books (cant remember which) they make a sister swear on the oath rod to do exactly as they say and ask her to tell the truth about logain and the red and admit they didnt set him up. she couldnt say either because one was a lie AS SHE THOUGHT LOGAIN BEING SET UP WAS TRUE, thus sending certain brainwaves reacting and her not being able to breath...who agrees with me?


created: 2005-05-06 11:08:50
subject: <b>forgot to add</b>
body:
lets not forget that the first a'dam was first made by an aei'sedei back in artur halkwings time so she could gain favour with him and his army so maybe they did know about brain-waves (such as the forsaken)but then remember that the aei'sedei that made the first a'dam was then collard, because artur harkwing hated aei'sedei...<br /><br />oh and a sky light is like the thing rand made when he was fighting the shaido (when the shaido were beseiging caihirian (not sure how to spell it))kinda like fireworks


created: 2005-05-03 10:18:03
subject: <b>This is excellent.</b>
body:
I suspect, however that the theory falls into the ever-expanding category of theories that just might be true, but won't ever be proved.  It still makes an interesting explanation.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-03 11:11:06
subject: <b>Good theory</b>
body:
Good explination into mat's missing memories, i voted yes.<br /><br />However I disagree with his new memories being those of random generals, I beleive they from mat's previous lives (which were mostly spent in the military). He asked the Eelfinn to fill in his missing memories (meaning the ones he lost after Shadar Logoth), and given their crafty nature they filled in all his missing memories from every incarnation.<br /><br />Just my tupence worth...


created: 2005-05-03 12:09:37
subject: <b>Umm</b>
body:
First off let me say that I love any theory I hear about Mat. I agree wholeheartedly, It makes perfect sence. I still happen to think that Mat is Aemon reborn and Tam is a decendant, the name is what does it for me Al'Thorin could very easily be shortened to al'Thor. and then the whole borderlanders thing about Rand having to be a prince because of the al'. <br /><br />and a side note to Jay<br />it was stated quite clearly in one of the interviews with RJ back when they released the prolog of  COT that Mat's memories are a random collection pulled from the men that have gone through the doorway before. Mostly brave men generals and such.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Ipkin Styld<br />Channeling Borderlander<br />Slayer of renegade Whitecloaks<br />Kicker of major Trolloc Rear-end</font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-03 12:54:50
subject: <b>I love your theory!</b>
body:
I'm not sure I agree with it, but it's well researched, innovative, and well explained. Good job!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>War must be, while we defend our lives against a destroyer who would devour all; but I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend</i><br />~Faramir</font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-03 13:36:19
subject: <b>Reply to Jay the Farmer</b>
body:
All of Mat's memories could not have come from his previous lives.  Recall when Tuon asks him about Hawkwing's Face in CoT.  He remembers dozens of different encounters with Hawkwing from different memories. It is not reasonable to think that he had more than one or two deaths/rebirths which coincide with Hawkwing's lifetime.  I think this theory has it right about the Eelfinn using the memories of generals who entered the ter'angreal.  I expect a lot of rulers/generals felt they needed counseling about how they might defeat Hawkwing.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Funny thing about weekends when you're unemployed, they don't mean quite so much...except you get to hang out with your working friends.&quot;<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-03 13:50:55
subject: <b>Not so...</b>
body:
Keep in mind Hawkwing is a hero of the horn. What's to say Aemon isn't also? Personally, I believe Mat is Aemon reborn, so what if some of those were past lives previous to the one specific one, where Hawkwing has appeared before.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rand.gif" border="0" />May The Dragon Ride Again On The Winds Of Time<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" />&quot;Carai al Caldazar!!&quot; <br /><br />Leader of the one man army on Cadsuane and all the non-Moiraine-or-Egwene and Co- AS. <br /><br />Seeking personal revenge on Masema for being an idiot. <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-03 14:09:22
subject: <b>to clarify</b>
body:
i do not dispute that Mat is Aemon reborn, in fact my theory supports this<br /><br />if Mat is Aemon reborn then when the soul regenerates itself it's using 'Aemon soul' to heal itself. then with these new parts he 'remembers' the battle where he commands the Heart Guard at his final stand at Manetheran (which is when Aemon reigned to) and of course also 'remembers' the Manetheran battle-cry, the old 'carai an caldazar'<br /><br />you see?<br /><br />i'll see if can get linda_sedai to edit the theory to include this, but i think it's okay anyway<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">idealism not pragmatism</font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-03 14:37:48
subject: <b>me likey</b>
body:
i agree with everything except for one thing.  in some memories, matt remembers serving arthur hawkwing and in some he remembers hating him.  therefore, it could mean that his lineage was very widespread or that the aelfinn/elfinn detected the mood of his soul (general/scamo etc.) and filled it with other like individuals.  but v good theory otherwise...<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;It's ridiculous to suggest that a team could go through a season in our league without losing. It's comical, just comical.&quot; Alex Ferguson 27th September 2002<br /><br />gooner...red and white army...<br /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gimli.gif" border="0" /> my soulmate<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/clown.gif" border="0" /> my nemesis</font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-03 14:42:18
subject: <b>I Agree</b>
body:
This is a very well thought out theory, and I agree with the arguement. The only part that seems to need some messing with is what memories Mat got. Other than that, the theory is pretty good.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;What do you mean, why's it got to be built?&quot; he said. &quot;It's a bypass. You've got to build bypasses.&quot; - Mr Prosser, head builder</font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-03 14:49:35
subject: <b>replies</b>
body:
to mazza: in some memories, matt remembers serving arthur hawkwing and in some he remembers hating him. therefore, it could mean that his lineage was very widespread or that the aelfinn/elfinn detected the mood of his soul<br /><br />apart from the Aemon memories/soul, Mat's soul was filled with memories/souls of those who had previously entered the ter'angreal. these snippets of souls harvested by the eelfinn could have been of anyone with any sort of personality.<br /><br />to demo: i wsan't gonna put every memory of mat's into the theory, most ppl know what i'm talking about when i refer to them, so i left it as it is<br /><br />thanks to all that have replied so far with your thoughts, it helps me question the theory and as such improve, i've already thought of a couple of trivial holes in the theory. things that i failed to mention in the theory, but are easily explained, nonetheless<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">idealism not pragmatism</font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-03 15:59:00
subject: <b>the one part this didn't really address...</b>
body:
the one part this didn't really address was that Mat was getting flashes of his previous lives even before he found that dagger.


created: 2005-05-03 20:41:19
subject: <b>Mat</b>
body:
Weird flashbacks on his own before ter'angreal: the old blood sings<br />New memories from long ago after ter'angreal: Memories from people who went to Finnland. They happen to be from a bunch of soldiers because they were the ones who usually had the guts to go into a ter'angreal<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">http://www.orkut.com/Profile.aspx?uid=4841668765074332965<br /><br />&quot;It's like God gave you the tools to build a house, and the blueprint is in you. Just remember to use rubber gloves.&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-03 21:35:42
subject: <b>Sorry, but no cigar... NOT EVEN CLOSE, TO A CIGAR, in fact!!</b>
body:
Our Dear friend Matrim Cauthon, is MOST Definitely Aemon Reborn. As for his memories, think of it this way: In Dune, (which RJ is a huge fan of, and as he has openly said, he has made references to them in the WoT series). I believe his memories are akin to Leto's Genetic Memories (Leto is the &quot;God-Emperor&quot; in the Dune series, and is one of the coolest characters ever created). Leto, was born with the memories of all of his ancestors, both male and female, from both sides, back to the dawn of time. his Grandmother, received similar memories, during a special Ceremony which granted her other abilities as well. I draw a paralell from these &quot;genetic memories&quot; and Mat's memories that he recieved in the &quot;world of the fins.&quot; These memories, being the memories of his ancestors, can be thought of as a kind of &quot;birthright&quot; and as such, the Finn could have interpreted his request to &quot;fill in his memories&quot; as asking to recieve his past memories... Otherwise, I would like a VERY GOOD explanation as to why the heck he doens't have bunch of Aes Sedai Memories, and don't give me that crap about Aes Sedai not having went through those doorways, it makes a heckuva lot more sense than claiming that it was just a bunch of brave soldier hicks that went through it. After all, the door IS a ter'angreal, and thus was made by aes sedai, and I somehow can't make myself believe that they would make such a doorway and not use it!<br /><br />Ps. You stupid, stupid people, will you EVER learn? don't just come up with random ideas that &quot;might&quot; be true, come to a SOLID conclusion based upon many facts, careful speculation, and enough RAFOing to turn you blue in the face, and THEN make a theory!!!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> &quot;I'm the D.O.&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /> &quot;No I am&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rand.gif" border="0" /> &quot;KILL THEM!&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /> &quot;You can't possibly win!&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" />*smirks* &quot;Ya wanna make a bet???&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perrin.gif" border="0" /> *mutters* &quot;stupid axe&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/avi.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/min.gif" border="0" /> &quot;YOU CAN DO IT!&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-03 22:18:25
subject: <b>2nd post</b>
body:
To ipkin;<br />I must have missed that interview, thanks for the correction <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />To haruka;<br />With it being so long since a book was published, I think it would be difficult to find this solid conclusive theory you are after without covering old ground.<br /><br />I find these random ideas interesting food for thought, and I think we need them while we wait patiently for the next instalment!<br /><br />Sorry that this post bears no reference to the theory, but I felt that I had to comment as I found the &quot;stupid people&quot; comment quite offensive.


created: 2005-05-03 22:47:57
subject: <b>Just a few things . . .</b>
body:
First, I love the idea of the memories of his past lives being like scar tissue. I thought this was an amazing theory.<br /><br />To Haruka: Remember that the doorway in Tear was used by kings, and rulers through past generations in order to seek guidance. The one in Rhuidean could have had simillar purposes. Mat is not a woman, and thus has no female memories, so no female Aes Sedai memories. Mat cannot channel, and has no connection to the Source, so there may be no Male Aes Sedai memories. Finally, it`s a theory. The most solid basis for a theory is an idea that just keeps poking it`s head at you. If you have a truely solid basis then you aren`t theorizing, you`re stating a truth that has been talked about but not named. All the theories are made up of these ideas. If you show me a theory based on stated facts, then you have shown me Robert Jordan speaking vaguely, but factually. It`s not a theory if the books already say it`s true.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Lugh of the Vanth<br />Prince of Coolavin<br />Lord of the Darmods<br /><br />&quot;If you must mount the gallows, give a jest to the crowd, a coin to the hangman, and make the drop with a smile on your lips.&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-03 23:15:40
subject: <b>Why are Mat's memories his own?</b>
body:
Why does Mat's memories have to be memories of his past lives?  THe Eelfinn could have given him memories of any combination of people's lives.  Because Mat remember's them they seem like his own.<br /><br />


created: 2005-05-04 02:53:19
subject: <b>One question</b>
body:
I realy like this theory, but I got one question. If Mats memories are random memories of people who have gone through the door befor, then why does he have memories of people from after the breaking? Hasnt the door been with the Aiel since the breaking? Its been over 3000 years since anyone but Aiel have been in contact with it. So how is it that he has memories from just 1000 years ago or less?


created: 2005-05-04 04:05:42
subject: <b>to aaran</b>
body:
this was one of the 'trivial' holes in my theory that i had mentioned. if we can imagine that the soul holds a wealth of information, including memories, then we can presume that these souls would be more covetteed by the Eelfinn. When i said that they used all of their soul resources, i have come to disagree<br /><br />i think they filled his holes with souls that to them are worthless, memories and knowledge of ppl from the Trolloc Wars not being as sophisticated as those from the AoL. that is the reason that Mat has memories of dancing, as well as ones of dying. After going over it again, i didn't find it likely that Eelfinn would give all of their souls away.<br /><br />does that seem okay?<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">idealism not pragmatism</font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-04 15:34:56
subject: <b>Also to Aaran</b>
body:
Mat's random memories came those people who entered the land of Aelfinn and Elfinn. The terangreal in Rhuidean isn't the only way to get to that land. They could also have entered the the terangreal in Tear or, the most likely, they entered through the tower of ghenji.<br /><br />Also I got these two quotes from the Wot Faq www.steelypips.org/wotfaq They are from RJ interviews...<br /><br />Johannes Rydh reports that RJ answered this question in a post-WH Dromen &amp; Demonen chat:<br /><br />    RJ: Mat's memories are NOT from his ancestors. He said [he wanted] to have the holes in his head filled but he did not specify exactly what he wanted them filled with and so he received scraps and bits and pieces of memories stolen from other men.<br /><br />He explained the idea more fully in the interview included in the online version of COT's Prologue:<br /><br />    Q: Are all of Mat's memories from his past lives?<br /><br />    RJ: No, Mat's &quot;old&quot; memories are not from his past lives at all. The &quot;sickness&quot; he got from the Shadar Logoth dagger resulted in holes in his memory. He found whole stretches of his life that seemed to be missing. When he passed through the &quot;doorframe&quot; ter'angreal in Rhuidean, one of the things he said - not knowing that the rules here were different than in the other ter'angreal he had used - was that he wanted the holes in his memory filled up, meaning that he wanted to recover his own memories. In this place, however, it was not a matter of asking questions and receiving answers, but of striking bargains for what you want. What he received for that particular demand was memories gathered by the people on that side of the ter'angreal, memories from many men, all long dead, from many cultures. And since not everyone passing by has the nerve to journey through a ter'angreal to some other world, the memories he receieved were those of adventurers and soldiers and men of daring.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/uno.gif" border="0" /> Bloody Flaming Goat Kissing Ashes <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/uno.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/thom.gif" border="0" /> The Old Weathered Gleeman <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/thom.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-04 15:47:34
subject: <b>Oh yeah and another thing</b>
body:
If you guys recall, all of Mat's memories from before the terangreal were from Manetheren only, then after he his run in with the foxy people he got memories from all over. So foxheads theory is very plausible in that before his run in with fox, his soul was regenerating itself with memories of his ancestors, then when he asked for them to be filled, those crafty foxes filled them with the other men's memories.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/uno.gif" border="0" /> Bloody Flaming Goat Kissing Ashes <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/uno.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/thom.gif" border="0" /> The Old Weathered Gleeman <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/thom.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-04 17:15:47
subject: <b>Just a note</b>
body:
Not even all of Mat's memories come from people who went to the Aelfinn or Eelfinn.  Some of them come from people who died, and clearly never went to the 'Finns to &quot;upload&quot; the memories.  RJ said the how &amp; why of Mat getting those memories might be revealed in KoD.   I can't understand why everyone seems so fixated on the idea that everyone has to be someone reborn.  I'm sure if we knew the Forsaken's background before we saw them waking up and getting loose, there would have been theories that Thom was Asmodean reborn, or something.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-05 13:02:08
subject: <b>the &quot;everybody is somebody elsereborn&quot; people might not</b>
body:
Say that Thom is Asmodean reborn.... How could &quot;any&quot; of the forsaken have been reborn? They were still &quot;ALIVE&quot; for this time perioud.... *smacks head in frustration<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> &quot;I'm the D.O.&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /> &quot;No I am&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rand.gif" border="0" /> &quot;KILL THEM!&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /> &quot;You can't possibly win!&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" />*smirks* &quot;Ya wanna make a bet???&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perrin.gif" border="0" /> *mutters* &quot;stupid axe&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/avi.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/min.gif" border="0" /> &quot;YOU CAN DO IT!&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-05 21:55:25
subject: <b>That's my point, haruka</b>
body:
And when I said before anyone knew about the Forsaken, I meant the fact that they were still alive and sealed up.  A little hard and fast contrdictory fact never stopped some of these people from coming up with wierder thoeries.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-06 10:31:07
subject: <b>I agree</b>
body:
...with the theory. but lets not forget what birgett said, that when the wheel spun her out again she forgot all past lives, untill she died and returned to the world of dreams then she remembers every life. so the sole carries the memories, kinda like a work place e.g. the previous lives are kept in a kind of filing cabinet and the current life is on the desk being worked on <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> but when you die the filing cabinet opens...lol


created: 2005-09-05 20:59:26
subject: <b>I agree</b>
body:
I also really like the parallel between the holes in Mat's soul and the holes in Padin Fains soul. Good stuff.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sister to Nossy<br />Shot swapper with a_fan <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br />Bonded to Phil Reborn and Sidious<br />&quot;Mommies are like wizards&quot; ~ CVH <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br />The fact that I don't agree with you in no way means I didn't understand you.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-03 11:58:18
subject: <b>i like it, but unfortunately</b>
body:
you made egwene into a rational creature who realises that Rand is the necessar saviour of the world<br /><br />now we all know that egwene is a bitch, so what your saying just can' be true...sorry <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">idealism not pragmatism</font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-03 16:55:58
subject: <b>Have to agree with Foxhead</b>
body:
She'll never (for lack of better words) get off her high horse...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rand.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perrin.gif" border="0" /><br />I don't fail. I succeed in finding what doesn't work. <br /><br /><font color="00ff33">Official Sponsor of the Melindhra Fan Club</font></font><p><a href="http://www.illwillpress.com" target="_blank">Feel the Squirley Wrath!!!!</a></p><p></p>


created: 2005-05-03 20:29:47
subject: <b>And Bela killed Asmodean</b>
body:
See my post on the Wot Board. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />But Elayne, at least, liked his boyishness, so maybe she'll stay around, for the good of the children and all...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Live as if you were living for the second time and had acted as wrongly the first time as you are about to act now.  -VF</font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-03 22:03:30
subject: <b>Haha! I like it.</b>
body:
But yes, Egwene is the major flaw in that plan. Now if there was one of the forsaken around using compusion, maybe, but I don't see why they would do that.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Incantrix <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-04 14:41:52
subject: <b>Gotta go with Foxhead</b>
body:
I worry for Rand.... Egwene is going to kill him when he isn't looking..... or do something worse...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;What do you mean, why's it got to be built?&quot; he said. &quot;It's a bypass. You've got to build bypasses.&quot; - Mr Prosser, head builder</font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-06 00:24:33
subject: <b>Does Jordan know...</b>
body:
Cannoli,<br /><br />does Jordan know you've been reading his notes for the end of the series? Man, don't you know your theory should have had a &quot;Spoilers&quot; warning?


created: 2005-09-09 00:34:53
subject: <b><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /></b>
body:
Cows can have that effect on anyone!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sister to Nossy<br />Shot swapper with a_fan <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br />Bonded to Phil Reborn and Sidious<br />&quot;Mommies are like wizards&quot; ~ CVH <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br />The fact that I don't agree with you in no way means I didn't understand you.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-09-10 18:12:44
subject: <b>pretty sweet theory</b>
body:
Seriously though, thats probably the funniest theory I have read in a long, long time.  It all fits.  Good on you chap!<br />


created: 2005-09-17 21:46:35
subject: <b>If not for egwene</b>
body:
She is a serious B!tch and probably my least favorite character other than faile (I really hope she dies in the next book)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" />Screaming_Defiance<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" />I demand the return of Hurin<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />I love these smiley's<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/clap.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banghead.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shakefist.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2006-04-07 14:38:09
subject: <b>Egwene isn't that bad!</b>
body:
What is it which inspires you all to hate Egwene and Faile?!  They might be arrogant, but they have reason, one is the rigtful heir to the Broken Crown and One is the youngest Amryiln in history!  Egwene will eventually have to ally with Rand.  She will eventually reconize him as atleast an equal!


created: 2006-11-07 14:45:06
subject: <b>Please! The girls ain't that bad.</b>
body:
Faile's only real problem is that she loves Perrin to a fault. And as for Egwene, she thinks of Rand the same way Rand thinks of her. 'nuf said.<br /><br />P.S. oh yeah, good post.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Who Dares, Wins.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-05 11:55:53
subject: <b>I like it</b>
body:
But I think the Dagger is more than a simple <i>ter'angreal</i>, something that, like the Horn of Valere, cannot be called thus because it is unimaginable that someone <i>made</i> it.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>War must be, while we defend our lives against a destroyer who would devour all; but I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend</i><br />~Faramir</font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-05 12:04:09
subject: <b>to the fanatic</b>
body:
i agree. i find it incomprehensible that through all the aes sedai hands it's been in and with all the aes sedai have seen it, it has never been labelled as a ter'angreal<br /><br />however if i were able to find a passage where it has an aes sedai not being able to recognise a ter'angreal, then this theory could still be probable. i'm currently putting together a plan for a dagger theory,  i believe that the Dagger is the key unifier to ALOT of things<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">idealism not pragmatism</font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-05 12:36:07
subject: <b>Another possibility</b>
body:
is that dagger was part of deal between someone who wanted unmade Taint and foxes. After all Mashadar and Taint in Saidin unmade each other. So turning Aridhol to Shadar Logoth could have been price of that deal.<br /> Besides at least snakes are interested in emotions so it is possible that they and foxes have means to use them for their purposes. For instance it is possible that dagger was catalyst. Or it made possible to use negative emotions and use them to create Mashadar.<br /> It is even possible that Finns acted without any deal. After all they had to know that if DO wins they will be wiped out by Him. So untainting Saidin made their chances to survive higher.


created: 2005-05-05 14:45:02
subject: <b>Well thought out</b>
body:
This theory seems like an overall good theory (I agreed with the previous theory too), and covers almost all of the major points. The only part that I disagreed with was the part about Aginor creating the dagger. There is little evidence to support such a claim; it is equally likely that Aginor found Mat because of the evil, and he simply had previous dealings with mashadar. Other than the Dagger, I agree with most of the main points, such as the degradation of the soul.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;What do you mean, why's it got to be built?&quot; he said. &quot;It's a bypass. You've got to build bypasses.&quot; - Mr Prosser, head builder</font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-05 15:53:14
subject: <b>The Dagger...</b>
body:
...is neither a ter'angreal nor a thing made by Aginor or any other of the Chose...Forsaken <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />There is a quote from EotW, that can help show this. Can't remember it exactly, but it goes a little something like this....<br /><br />&quot;Everything from that evil place is tainted. If so much as a pebble was removed from Shadar Logoth, its evil would be able to taint the world once more&quot;<br /><br />It doesn't matter that it's a dagger, it could have been a pebble for Mat's sling. Just a dagger is slightly more interesting that a stone.<br /><br />The fact that is has an extreme effect from wounding, it's just the evil getting directly into the body.<br /><br />When Aginor points to Mat and says &quot;an old thing, an old friend, an old enemy&quot; is most likely from the fact that he can sense the evil Mat is infected with. It is indeed an old thing, it's an old friend in the way that it destroyed a major enemy of the shadow and it's an old enemy because it destroys things willy-nilly. Including the Shadow and Shadow-spawn.<br /><br />Good theory though.


created: 2005-05-05 19:28:18
subject:
<b>Good Theory But do not agree sort of <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /></b>

body:
I always thought that the Mashadar was the manifestation of the cities in habitants.  They truly hated the shadow and everything about it.  Mordeth was the person who was able to get the people of the city to buy into the idea that they use the shadows tactics to beat the shadow.  But events and the evolution of the people in that environment continued to grow more and more inward, until they killed each other.  I think this total belief and the physical climax of a fanatical group of people killing each other gave energy and physical form to what is now called Mashadar.<br /><br />Mashadar is the ultimate evil, which lives in humans and has been given form.  This evil is different from the evil of the dark one.<br /><br />I have a open mind about the dagger, but I always thought it was just a tainted dagger.  I mean if it was special and had any additional powers or qualities than it wouldn&#8217;t be stored in a room with other objects, just can not accept that.  <br /><br />I think the reason why the dagger is important is because Mordeth couldn&#8217;t fully take over Padan Fains soul.  But since the dagger is tainted, the Mordeth part of his soul fines comfort and a sense of being whole. Also it might be used like Moirians jewel, a focus of sorts of the evil that destroyed Aridhol.<br /><br />Just as a side note:  I thought Aes Sedia warded SL so Mashadar couldn&#8217;t escape out of the city.  I also think that since the dagger was part of the healing of Mat that its ability to spread the taint has been contained.  Fain is the only person who can tap into the taint and pass along some of it&#8217;s qualities to others.<br /><br />I also think you have to put into the equation Machin Shin the black wind, you mentioned it but I think it needs to be expounded a little more.  I think that the black wind caught Fain, found a like type of being, but one where it couldn&#8217;t consume, because of the points you have made.  But it also claims a part of Fain.  So you have (3) external sources of evil and all different in their own ways competing with in Padan Fain.  I think because all 3 are competing for Padan Fain and fighting to consume each other, which leaves PF a sorta type of free choice and his own form of control over them.<br />


created: 2005-05-06 11:16:05
subject: <b>Aginor?</b>
body:
&quot;This theory seems like an overall good theory (I agreed with the previous theory too), and covers almost all of the major points. The only part that I disagreed with was the part about Aginor creating the dagger. There is little evidence to support such a claim; it is equally likely that Aginor found Mat because of the evil, and he simply had previous dealings with mashadar. Other than the Dagger, I agree with most of the main points, such as the degradation of the soul.&quot;<br /><br />Aginor could not know of Mashadar.  Only Ishamael walk the world throughout the last 3000+ years.  Aginor was totally sealed on the surface where the wheel grinds excessively fine.  His first encounter with the world was at the Eye where he met his maker.  Mashadar, for all we know, found existance 1000 years after the bore was sealed and 2000 years before Aginor was freed.  The only way Aginor could have known about the Mashadar was if Ishamael told him about it.  Even if a conversation took place between Ishamael and Aginor before the Eye do you really think Ishamael would have told Aginor about the Mashadar?  I think other facets of thought would dominate the conversation.  On top of that, why would Ishamael tell Anginor how to find Rand?  Anginor could have killed the Dragon and been instilled as top dog by the DO for doing so.  Ishamael is too cautious to be this reckless.  I think it was another means Anginor used to track Mat.<br /><br />However, as a counterpoint if it was the dagger that lead Anginor to the Eye it would explain why the Snakes and Foxes did not have a sour reaction to Mat (there are theories supporting Mat being marked by the Shadow and or an unwitting spy for the shadow).


created: 2005-05-06 18:26:44
subject: <b>Interesting theory.</b>
body:
<font size="-1"><b>In conclusion to Fain remaking: Fain&#8217;s soul was slowly lessened to hold the essence of the ta&#8217;averen...As it was being remade it was becoming twisted and warped by the Dark One&#8217;s touch, this shows in Moiraine&#8217;s feeling of uncleanness after being near him/examining him</b></font><br /><br />I especially like your analysis of what was done to Fain at Shayol Ghul.  I don't think that I've ever heard an in-depth think-through of the process before.  Excellent job.  Incidentally, you're right that the DO did the dirty work himself.  Ishy doesn't have the level of control over souls that the DO has (like the merging of Luc/Isam, for instance).<br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Mordeth broke the dormant power of the Mashadar from the dagger, much the same way that a person (Mordeth) can create a spring (the dagger) for water or a stream (Mashadar) to well up from.</b></font><br /><br />This is where I disagree with you, however.  Am I correct in saying that the Shadar Mandarb is what generated Mashadar?  Supported by the quote &quot;Except...except...&quot; that Mordeth says?  I'm afraid I can't agree.  If the Shadar Mandarb was such an important item, Mordeth wouldn't have had it down in the basement, lying around with his &quot;handouts...&quot; it would have been in a place where he could have gotten it on call when he finally stole somebody's soul and left Shadar Logoth.  I don't think it's special, I just think it's another item.  Mordeth's &quot;except...&quot; could be in reference to the fact that the boys are clearly mixed up with Aes Sedai, since they are going to Tar Valon, and any channeler of the OP would instantly recognize that something would be wrong with a SL-tainted person.<br /><br />As for why Fain's so interested in the dagger post-possession, it's very simple:  it's the only Shadar Logoth item out in the world, and Fain -- or rather Mordeth -- doesn't want to go back to Shadar Logoth to get another one.  It's quite likely that the attraction between evils, except polarized so there is a negative effect, has a similar attraction between the same evil, so Fain would again be snared if he returned to Shadar Logoth.<br /><br />Jordan likes to employ duality and balance as major themes in WoT (if you hadn't noticed <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> ).  He is constantly emphasizing the agency of characters.  In a way, this is very foreign to the concept of both Dark One and Creator.  The Creator's true &quot;agent&quot; in the world of the Wheel, the Pattern, stresses balance above all and will go to any lengths to keep that balance in place, such as <i>ta'veren</i> who force lives to go in certain directions.  I envision the Pattern's plan as a dot traveling across a plane.  Meanwhile, the Dark One also forces people in only a direction he wants, by exerting his influence over the pattern (possibly with elements such as &quot;dark <i>ta'veren</i>&quot; like Ishamael).  I see the DO's plan more as a tangent graph, trying to get the travelling line to move as far as possible in a different direction.<br /><br />I would go so far as to say that neither the Pattern nor the Dark One are &quot;good,&quot; or &quot;evil,&quot; they simply represent order and chaos and will go to whatever lengths to achieve their goals.  But humanity has, to a certain extent, their own agency and free will -- and their choice to do &quot;evil&quot; in the sense that the people of Aridhol became &quot;evil,&quot; is their own decision, not the Pattern's (as Loial explains to Rand in TEOTW -- the people of Aridhol made a series of subtle choices, albiet at Mordeth's prompting, that led to their self-destruction).  Jordan is emphasizing the potential of human brutality and loss of self in what happened at Shadar Logoth -- what man did to man.  Perhaps the fact that the people of SL were so far gone snared their own souls -- making them into Mashadar.  (Hmm, I think there's a theory in this.)<br /><br />Anyway, I think the most telling point about the whole thing is that Fain/Ordieth/Mordeth's agenda is still the same (straight from the mouth of RJ).  To strike back at Rand or the DO, whichever is the easier target, because of his personal beef against them.  Of course, I agree that the Mordeth part of his soul and the DO/TP-distilled part of his soul are both present -- fighting against each other, slowly eating away more of the original &quot;Fain&quot; soul -- but Mordeth is winning, because of the presence of the dagger.  The increase of the strange SL power, the frequent use of the surname &quot;Mordeth&quot;... all evidence that Mordeth is prevailing.  But when the SL force eventually expunges the TP force from the vessel, what remains will NOT be Mordeth, because of the degredation of the soul.<br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>The dagger is a ter&#8217;angreal similar to that of the twisted doorway ter&#8217;angreal, as a doorway to another, or at least a conduit to another&#8217;s world&#8217;s evil. Birgitte says that the Eelfinn and Aelfinn are a different in the way that they are so unhuman. As a conduit of to an evil, it has &#8216;powers&#8217; with it&#8217;s ultimate evil being the Mashadar.</b></font><br /><br />I don't think that the evil of Mashadar is the evil of another world.  I think it is the manifestation of the darkest, most primeval human emotions into physical form.  It is interesting that the resurgence of the phenomenon in SL was because Mordeth exploited upon their desperate situation against the DO.  We have descriptions of the animalistic tendencies of the people of the AoL post-Bore drilling, pre-War of the Shadow.  No doubt the phenomenon manifested itself there as well.<br /><br />To sum it up, I would say that the evil of Shadar Logoth is the manifestation of the ultimate rejection of both the Pattern and the Dark One.  If torn between two different forces trying to push you in two different directions, a person could look inside himself and find something...evil.


created: 2005-05-07 02:34:58
subject: <b>the dagger is not the &quot;exception&quot; mordeth speaks of</b>
body:
like i mentioned on another post about the dagger, the &quot;except...except&quot; is not referring to the dagger.  after Rand found out Mat had the dagger he repeated what Moiraine had said about not taking anything out of Shadar Logoth.  Mat replies &quot;but he gave it to me, i did not take it, so it doesn't follow the rules&quot; (or something to that effect).  Mat was handed the dagger at some point by Mordeth, he never actually picked it up.  if Mordeth had meant they could not take the dagger, he would not have handed it to Mat.<br /><br />i don't think the dagger is anything special, it is merely a symbol for all of Mordeth's hatred, an extension of his evil.


created: 2005-05-07 07:08:01
subject: <b>to mat cauthon is godly</b>
body:
actually you're incredibly wrong. what happened was the exact opposite of what you said. moiraine asks if mordeth had given them anything and mat is then all 'he didn't give it to me, i took it, blah blah blah'. trust me this i know for sure, when i do a theory i pull up every bit of information at hand (pretty much) and the chapter Shadow Waiting in EoTW was one i read and reread thoroughly. as such Mordeth's comment is still appropriate. if you disbelieve, please check it. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">idealism not pragmatism</font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-07 17:18:22
subject: <b>Comment to Mat Cauthon is godly</b>
body:
Buddy, you've got it upside down.<br /><br />EoTW, Chapter Nineteen - Shadow's Waiting - Orbit Paperback page 284.<br /><br />&quot;Mat peered around the side of a treasure pile, clutching a dagger snatched from the trove.&quot;<br /><br />Peace.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />   the Harvester of Mankind    <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />      the Thief of Years       <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />     the Slayer of Worlds      <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />     the Ultimate Reality      <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Blog - brucetheloon.blogspot.com</font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-10 12:37:56
subject: <b>There is a Question of the Week that you need to include</b>
body:
Question: <br /><br />Now that Shadar Logoth is gone, (cool way to get rid of it by the way), has the evil power in Padan Fain/Mordeth/the Ruby Dagger decreased any? Has it driven him even more insane? Or since the next book is called the Knife of Dreams, will all these questions be answered in it?<br /><br />Robert Jordan Answers:<br /><br /><i>The evil power in Padan Fain has neither decreased nor increased, nor has that in the dagger. The corruption in him was partly caused by the taint on Shadar Logoth, but it didn't constitute a real connection to the city. Remember that it was because he was PadanFain, the Hound of the Shadow, that he was able to leave Shadar Logoth in his new condition after he merged with/absorbed Mordeth. (By the way, any other artifacts that might be lying around from Shadar Logoth would have the same long-term corrupting effect as the dagger. Fortunately, or unfortunately, any such thing would need to be metal or stone. The wood and fabric had decayed. It wouldn't have been pleasant to get a splinter from, say, a chair from Shadar Logoth.)<br /><br />The destruction of Shadar Logoth has not driven Fain any more insane. I'm not certain he'd be able to function at all if he were any madder than he already is. But being insane doesn't make him any less dangerous, only less predictable. He no longer responds to situations or events in any sort of sane, logical manner. His abiding concerns are hatred of Rand al'Thor (and to a lesser degree Mat and Perrin) because he blames them for what the Dark One did to him in order to turn him into the Shadow's Hound, and hatred for the Dark One because of what the Dark One did to him. He goes after Rand because Rand is the easiest target in his mind, but if he can take a swipe at the Dark One or the Dark One's minions in some way that he felt would cause real harm, he'd leap at it.</i><br /><br /><br />Overall it's a good theory, but there is stuff from this answer that should probably be included.<br /><br />Also, this answer implies that there is nothing about the dagger that is special. Now, I realize that it is only implied and that nothing specific is mentioned that would disprove any of your speculations. Actually, I've always thought the dagger has something more to it, though I don't think that it was made by Aginor. No forsaken has shown any talent towards making ter'angreal, and Aginor seems to be limited to his genetic engineering. It seems likely that the evil of SL is much older than even the AoL.<br /><br /> <br /> <br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Need a book to read - check out my blog for ideas.</font><p><a href="http://nethspace.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">Neth Space</a></p><p></p>


created: 2005-05-11 03:56:02
subject:
<b>to kcf, i don't &lt;need&gt; to include anything <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /></b>

body:
but you're right, i probably should. i'm actually gonna do another theory on this, which'll have my newest ideas, will include the dagger and it's origins (i think, there's just not that much evidence floating around), an in depth look at fain's talents and thus how he manipulated the machin shin, a little look at the machin shin and then finally, what the future holds for mr.fain<br /><br />and yes, it will no doubt be another long 'un<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">idealism not pragmatism</font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-11 18:55:38
subject: <b>Somthing I think you should address is</b>
body:
how the two opposing powers were kept from destroying each other within the person of Fain.  My add-on to your theory is that both the &quot;Mashadar&quot; and TP within him are only designed to destroy misc. portions of the soul.  I think because both evils require their host to function within society that some portions of the soul are inedible so to speak.  So both Fain and Mordeth are operating on the bare framework they have left.  Perhaps half a soul each for my purposes.  So when the two half souls begin to come together they buffer the power of one from the power of the other.  If you imagine the two as saidin and saidar Fain is the sinuous line that can't be crossed.  This would also give us a better alternative to how Fain derives his powers.  The idea that sometimes he's using Mashadar and sometimes he's using the TP seems ineffective.  Especially since the TP aspect of Fain was not an active power.  I want to put forth the idea that he wasn't using either.  I think the power that Fain has is created by the tension between the two powers trying to reach each other through the souls of Fain and Mordeth.  I think Fain has increased in his powers because as he intergrates he allows the two powers to come closer and closer together without ever allowing them to actually meet.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where did these Skimmers come from?  I mean if they didn't want to read the book they could have just Traveled to another author.  Why risk arriving at the wrong destination?  Why risk falling into darkness?</font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-09 04:36:38
subject: <b>I'm confused</b>
body:
Maybe I'm just messed up, but I don't understand what you're getting at.  It all seems conjecture.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">The Mofo J.A.R.<br />Head of Public Relations, Al Bum's Records<br />Lead Guitarist, Inspected by 40<br />Singer, Songwriter, multi-instrumentalist<br />Viking <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /><br />WoT addict<br />http://www.inspectedby40.com<br />First post on TP blackboard 4 times.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-09 11:32:52
subject: <b>I agree just because I like when somebody kicks their ass</b>
body:
I agree that Rand will not kneel to the Crystal Throne, that's corrupted version of the Prophecies. That means his &quot;truce&quot; with Seanchan will not happen the way we think it would, because the truce may be considered &quot;kneeling&quot; by many people and thus making true a corrupted version. I don't see that happening.<br /><br />Also, there are several things with Seanchan that is not in their favor:<br />1) Little Wolf. This guy is bugging me. He obviously talented general and he has put some thing in motion to kick their butt in Taraborn and Arad Doman. And consider that most of the Seanchan troops are Taraboners, that might be a sign of success for the Little Wolf. I think he will drive them out of the west coast.<br /><br />2) Illian. Seanchan are preparing invasion to Illian. By force or by settlers. It doesn't matter. I don't see Rand allowing that.<br /><br />3) It was Dreamed that there would be a battle between White Tower and Seanchan. Again, if Rand will find out that - you can say good-bye to any truce between him and Seanchan.<br /><br />4) &quot;he will bind west and south&quot; part of the Prophecy. Seanchan does not have south at all, only Amadicia and Altara. Tear, Illian and Mayne are way too south of them and they will not be under Seanchan domain. And we can be sure that west will be free of Seanchan soon. So, no luck for them here as well. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br />


created: 2005-05-09 14:40:23
subject: <b>Sounds good</b>
body:
I like the theory. Don't know if it will happen, but I hope that it will...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;What do you mean, why's it got to be built?&quot; he said. &quot;It's a bypass. You've got to build bypasses.&quot; - Mr Prosser, head builder</font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-10 16:14:31
subject: <b>In Response to above posters</b>
body:
What I'm getting is that this is a possible interpretation for this prophecy. It is indeed conjecture, since there is no way to know what the prophecy really means.<br /><br />Thanks, I agree there is a lot of other evidence that suggests that Seanchan prophecy is corrupted, and Rand will prevail.<br /><br />I hope it happens, too. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />


created: 2005-05-25 08:26:49
subject: <b>...</b>
body:
&quot;what was cast down is raised up&quot;<br /><br />Seanchan have the whole &quot;down-cast eyes&quot; thing going on, don't they? What if a [enter Old Tongue name]down-cast eyes guy/girl assumes a higher status due to the Blood being weakened (due to sul'dam/Suroth/Semirhage being exposed)?<br /><br />Just an idea that popped up..<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>I enjoyed Crossroads of Twilight!<br />If you feel the same way, join the 'CoT Appreciation Signature Club'</i><br /><br /><b>New Spring</b>:<br /><br /><b>Elaida</b>: Good luck on your test. DON'T MESS UP!!! DON'T GET NERVOUS!!!<br /><br /><b>Moiraine</b>: I made it.<br /><br /><b>Elaida</b>: Sh*t.</font><p></p>


created: 2006-06-04 02:02:56
subject: <b>&quot;Serpents in the bosom&quot;</b>
body:
(Great) Serpent=Aes Sedai<br />With the whole sul'dam/Tuon revelation, Aes Sedai could have a big role in Seanchan. :shrug:<br /><br /><br /><br /><br />That is all.<br /><br /><br />P.S. (I know there is no shrug smilie)<br /><br /><br /><br />That is all (for real).<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2006-07-15 17:45:36
subject: <b>wow.</b>
body:
a theory that is actually proven to be correct. most of it altleast. great going, mrs.R! hope the damane do come to power.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">the lessons i learnt from WoT:<br />Nothing happens. Then, nothing happens. Then, unexpectedly, nothing happens. Everything is FRAUGHT with PORTENT.<br /><br />hell, i love it! balefire the world! let the Lord of Chaos rule!</font><p></p>


created: 2009-01-30 17:36:13
subject: <b>Also there is Tuan</b>
body:
What if Rand ends up bonding Tuon?I know it sounds crazy but thereis alot that can happen in Randland .


created: 2005-05-09 09:56:43
subject: <b>Portal Stonageing</b>
body:
It seems reasonable, although the one question I have, is who Channels into the portal stone to allow Mat and Thom to get into the Tower of Ghenjei?


created: 2005-05-09 11:17:48
subject: <b>Agree with the above</b>
body:
To travel via Portal Stone, you have to be able to channel. And apparently, no Aes Sedai around Mat is strong enough at that. <br /><br />Also, Moiraine is dead. Will you let her rest in peace already?


created: 2005-05-09 12:43:13
subject: <b>Yup</b>
body:
Verin stated in TGH that if she tried to channel even a small part of the total needed to activate a portal stone she'd be burned to a crisp. Rand could barely do it early on.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> Wolfbrother <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /> Steadfast Defender of the Light <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-09 13:19:52
subject: <b>I like it.</b>
body:
I like the theory.  I also have reservations because you do not have anybody to activate the Portal Stones.  Hell do we know there is a portal stone in the finns dimension?<br /><br />Also Rand and the Ash'aman have to learn humanity, not the Aes Sedia.<br /><br />But other than that I agree, Mat &amp; Thom have to be the cats (I mean Foxes <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />) that rescue Moirian.  <br /><br />I always saw Thom for the music part.  Hell Mat might remember the song that is most effective and teach it to Thom.  He does remember allot of stuff like music and dancing.  For the fire part, maybe he will have some of Auldra(sp) matches.  I do not know about the Iron to bind though,  Steel isn't Iron.  I think it has to be Iron to bind them.<br /><br />I do not know if I agree that it would only be those two.  1- we need a channeler to use the portal stone.  2- I think either or both Noel &amp; Vanin will accompany Mat.  RJ might throw Oliver into the mix because is innocent child mind might find the key to succeed in the strike against the finns.<br /><br />Side note: I always thought Mat would lose his eye while experimenting with Gun Powder.


created: 2005-05-09 14:03:26
subject: <b>Portal Stones?</b>
body:
The only serious reservation I have is the Portal Stones.  Unless some new method comes along, they need a strong channeler to operate them.  On method of travel you did not cover was Raken.  Will Mat &amp; Thom discover the way and Tuon provide the transportation?  RAFO, I guess.<br /><br />I also think Olver will play a role somehow, probably in showing Mat the way in.<br /><br />BTW - Early steel was mostly iron.  It was the method of forging they used that added the carbon that turns it into steel.  But how it will &quot;bind&quot;, I can't guess.


created: 2005-05-09 15:06:33
subject: <b>I was with you on who would go.</b>
body:
But after that I have three problems.  The first, like many people above have mentioned, is your ideas on how they get to the Tower.  The channeling methods are out of the question.  Not only is it unlikely that any of the women are strong enough but how would they know the symbol for Ghenjei in the case of the Portal Stones.  A horse ride seems much more likely.  RJ could make that happen in less than a chapter if he so chose.<br />The second is why would Mat's ter'angreal react to being in the Tower.  If the Tower is a ter'angreal how does its function relate to Mat's medallion.  When ter'angreal have an interaction its because they do something similar.  If you really meant that his mere prescence would disrupt Finnland I think there's evidence against that.  Both the A and the E allowed Mat into their domain without handy swords of fire to encourage them.  They even allowed Rand in without one because in my recollection he didn't make his sword until they tried to kick him out so a tavern stronger than Mat was allowed in without qualms until whoever was in charge realized there were two of them there.  Also take into account that some theories on how the Finns do what they do is that the Pattern twist around their world in away that allow them to see how a thread will be woven.  One theory that referenced the board game design suggested that the Tower of Ghengi is at the center of all the squiggly lines.   Meaning that it is the most stable place in that warren of twisted space and time and that Mat's twisting of the pattern will have a lesser effect there.<br /><br />My third problem is how/why Mat would be separated for Thom  and Moiraine if he was able to stay with Thom on the way in?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where did these Skimmers come from?  I mean if they didn't want to read the book they could have just Traveled to another author.  Why risk arriving at the wrong destination?  Why risk falling into darkness?</font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-09 17:36:30
subject: <b>To answer the questions...</b>
body:
1.<br />The reason I never mentioned who was going to channel was because there were too many options, and I didn't want to get into the whole why-they-would-or-wouldn't-work and which-is-the-most-likely-and-why fiasco like I did with everything else. The gist is that whoever channels and however they do it, somebody still channels to activate the Portal Stone. The most likely story being that all the channelers with him linked - they'd be strong enough, then. Or Mat could still meet up with Perrin, borrow some stronger Aes Sedai, or he could stumble upon an anreal, or, heck, maybe even realize he can channel, after all. Again, whatever works.<br /><br />2.<br />For the same reason as above, I didn't want to include the details of Mat leaving. All that really needs to be believed is that somehow, someway, he's the only one that's teleported out of there, while Thom and Moiraine head out through the doorframe. But as for leaving, as I said, the most obvious reason being that he wishes it, and the foxes grant it in order to get him the heck out of there as fast as possible. Or again, the foxes could send him through the Portal Stone (lord knows they probably can) or they could send him through the three spires Mat kept seeing in Tear, which may be a transportation method like Portal Stones but not quite. You decide, or make your own idea. Whatever works, after all.<br /><br />3.<br />Nope, it's the Aes sedai who need to learn humanity. Currently, they think they are superior to everyone else, kings and queens alike. And unlike the Ashaman, they are completely seperated and detached from the real world, locking themselves in their Tower and giving up friends and family. Rand even kept the families of the Ashaman to keep them linked to reality (hoping that would keep them sane, but still.) Nope, it's the Aes Sedai, alright.<br /><br />4. <br />What happens if you have a tornado within a tornado? Which sucks in which? Mat's ter'angreal ABSORBS THE POWER. Ter'angreals are MADE OF POWER. So what happens when the Power in a ter'angreal is absorbed, especially when it's a dimension with PEOPLE INSIDE? I'm not saying that the dimension will be sucked into Mat's ter'angreal - but it could be erased and/or deactivated completely. That's what I meant by the ter'angreal being a possible threat. Two ter'angreals don't have to be similar, they just have to be ter'angreals.<br /><br />5.<br />I said Mat will be seperated from Thom and Moiraine before they leave, and seperated I meant. How? I gave a way, and a darn good one too. Mat simply refuses to leave with them and stays behind to finish off his revenge. Do you have to believe that? No. The Finns could, say, hold Mat back and Thom and Moiraine have to leave him there or die. Or Mat could leave the main entrance chasing the Finns and get caught in the mazes, while Thom and Moiraine have to leave because they can't afford to go back and look for him. Good lord, use your imaginations! If I told you to bake a cake, would you ask me where to put the strawberries? Dress it up however you want, I don't care. <br /><br />6.<br />What will be used? I didn't want to get into that, because, again, you didn't have to believe it. But honestly? Like I said. Music will be Thom's harp. Fire will be Aludra's matches because, as Mat said, they're just sticks. Courage they both have. And my idea for iron is the ashandera, and I don't think it will be a literal binding, like with handcuffs or ropes or whatever. But I do think its made of some unknown type of iron. And personally, I think that Mat will use the inscription on it to &quot;bind&quot; them by their own words, and we know how bound by tradition and rules the Finns are. I'm not exactly sure how it comes to play myself, but I'm pretty sure that it and its inscription play a huge role.


created: 2005-05-09 18:03:13
subject: <b>The iron thing</b>
body:
Iron has small filings inside it. That's what gives it the magnetism. A lot of fantasy tales/books/novels talk about iron affecting mystical beings. Magentism is the probable reason. Steel also has the filings, and is also magnetic, but in a diferent way. Jordan is a physicist, so he very probably knows this. Therefore he either chooses to dismiss the steel as non-magentic for the sake of convenience, or makes distance a factor in the magnetic fields.<br /><br />This could probably all be solved if you held and iron ingot to the skin of a Finn. They'd be in pain, or frozen, or whatever it is that iron will do to them, and you would have them at your mercy.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">http://www.orkut.com/Profile.aspx?uid=4841668765074332965<br /><br />&quot;It's like God gave you the tools to build a house, and the blueprint is in you. Just remember to use rubber gloves.&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-09 18:07:18
subject: <b>Oh</b>
body:
The filings are actually called iron filings, and they aren't exactly small, they're microscopic. And the direction they are directed define the poles of the piece of iron. So if they point all over the place, the iron doesn't have a specific pole in either end, but is just generally attracted to magnetic materials.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">http://www.orkut.com/Profile.aspx?uid=4841668765074332965<br /><br />&quot;It's like God gave you the tools to build a house, and the blueprint is in you. Just remember to use rubber gloves.&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-09 19:53:46
subject: <b>I like it...for the most part</b>
body:
Seems logical to me, and honestly I would enjoy it if it happened. I'm just not sure if it's actually going to happen. The only thing I don't know about is the portal stones, like most others. Who would operate it?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Bonded to Delireus <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />Near-Sister to PseudoDragon <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br />Cousin to Seriana and Nossredna<br />Guarded by Hawking<br />Slave to BG <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br />Mika is my empress <br />The Drewman Reborn is my identical Twin</font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-09 22:37:18
subject: <b>Overall good but with problems.</b>
body:
Overall I liked your hypotheses.  I disagree on the same points as most of the above posters for slightly different reasons, though.<br /><br />You dismiss Travelling (with a capital T) as unlikly because the chance of Mat stumbling on a Traveller is small.  Yet, the same argument could be made for the possibility of stumbling on a portal stone.  There are many unlikely paths (including finding another gateway to Finnland) with the same likelyhood as using a portal stone.<br /><br />If ta'veren could work for one method it could work for all.<br /><br />Second, you weren't forceful enough, IMHO, against the idea that simply winning snakes and foxes will magically transport them to the land of the Finns.  This is an obviously silly idea since there is no mechanism for this.  It is not as if the gameboard is a ter'angreal. <br /><br />Third, it is impossible that Mat's foxhead medallion can destroy the land of the Finn's by its presence there.  After all that is where Mat's medallion came from in the first place.  Some poor adventurer probably caried it into the tower of Ghenjhei and either got stuck or had to bargain it away.  After all RJ has clearly stated that the snakes and the foxes cannot directly affect the 'real world'.<br /><br />Fourth there is a large possibility that Mat put's his eye on a balance in Finnland because Egwene's dream mentions Thom pulling out a blue stone from the fire <b>while</b> Mat placed his eye on a balance.  These two dreams are linked as occuring at the same time!<br /><br />Fifth unless I missed it in my skimming you really didn't deal with your strongest evidence that Mat and Thom will be there Egwene's dream that I mention in the previous paragraph.<br /><br />I don't buy your argument that Mat and Thom will be so much in control that Mat doesn't need to bargain with the Finn.  Since when has RJ made anything so simple.  NOTHING ever goes according to the plan.  Nobody gets a complete revenge either.  There is always a price to pay.<br /><br />There was plenty of stuff that I agreed with in your post as well. It was overall pretty good.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">RabidWombat<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> Let the Lord of Rambling Thoughts rule <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> Proud owner of a 2 star rating! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /> Someone stole all my cookies <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-09 23:05:44
subject: <b>Not so much . . .</b>
body:
Like most people, i have the Portal Stone issue, so I`m not even going to go into that.<br /><br />&quot;I believe is the one that will teach the Aes Sedai humanity and humility, along with Cadsuane.&quot; That is YOU. Your quote from your theory. Cadsuane says she needs to teech Rand and the Ashaman laughter and tears.<br /><br />The Tower may be a Ter`Angreal, but the dimension inside isn`t. Mat`s foxhead wouldn`t have an effect inside. Plus, at Egwene`s testing it`s the fact that both Ter`Angreal are related (the dream ring taking the wearer to TAR, and the Archways taking you to little portions of reality that may exsist within TAR) that causes them to react. Finaly, we can`t even begin to assume that the Tower is a Ter`Angreal. There are plenty of relics from BEFORE the AOL, when the power wasn`t used. The Portal Stones themselves have been around for ages.<br /><br />The possiblity that winning the game can transport you to Finn land (which I KNOW you didn`t use, but t bugged me for existing) is preposterous. There`s no way that a homemade board game (lets not forget that this game wasn`t found, but MADE) that follows some old rules would do these things.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Lugh of the Vanth<br />Prince of Coolavin<br />Lord of the Darmods<br /><br />&quot;If you must mount the gallows, give a jest to the crowd, a coin to the hangman, and make the drop with a smile on your lips.&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-10 00:08:55
subject: <b>A little support</b>
body:
Here are some points to consider to help your theory.<br /><br />First, she is alive. Min had a veiwing that Rand would fail at the last battle without Moiraine. Min is NEVER wrong. So one of two things will happen. Rand will lose the last battle because she is dead (in which case I will burn all my WOT books), or will be rescued just in time for the last battle. It is entirely possible that Moiraine is being held prisoner, because we know Lanfear was also held (then died for some reason, possibly because she sold her soul to the DO).<br /><br />Second, it will be Mat. RJ has told us that we will get a partial answer about Mat's ancient memories. The question is, where could we get that kind of information? Aes Sedai? Scholars? Mat? Nobody in randland knows anything about Mat's memories, so I must conclude that the only place to get that info is from the Finns (Which one? Arguments can be made for and against both.)<br /><br />Third, Thom will be involved in Moiraine's rescue. I feel pritty confident with this statement because of the dream of Thom pulling Moiraines forhead jewel from the fire.<br /><br />Forth, we really don't need a reason why Mat and Thom will rescue Moiraine. Mat is ta'veren. The pattern needs Moiraine at the last battle. We can see this from the prediction in Egwene's dream and in Min's viewing. Both are gimpses of the  future pattern. And as we all know the pattern forces ta'veren to the path that it needs. If it needs Moiraine, then she will return.<br /><br />gandalf79


created: 2005-05-10 13:27:13
subject: <b>2gandalf79</b>
body:
You are wrong about Min's viewing. It was not that Rand WILL fail, but rather &quot;he would almost certainly fail&quot;. Do you see the difference?<br /><br />I think that Moiraine is dead and never comes back. Min's viewing is a RJ's way to make some tense plot and keep readers worry about outcome of Last Battle.<br />


created: 2005-05-10 16:00:25
subject: <b>I think the premise of a theory is to provide evidence for your opinions</b>
body:
As such there is no reason why we should be responsible for providing you with evidence or our imagination.  Our resposibility is dissect you theory and either agree or disagree.  Your last answer indicated that you thought that  our questions were irrelavent.  Which is particularly  strange since the majority of your theory is on the course of events and all of our questions are about the details of how your particular course of events will come about.<br /><br />1.  Even with linked sisters how would they know how to activate the Portal Stone.  Getting access to this information is just as likely as them finding out how to Travel.  Even Verin who knew something about the Stones didn't know how to operate it and neither of Mat's AS is a brown.<br />2. The idea that Mat will be separated from Thom and Moiraine is your idea and it has no textual support so it has to be plausible.  IF it had textual support then you could leave it open ended like you are trying to do but otherwise you presented the idea  and therefore you have to back it up.<br />4.  Two things here.  One Mat's ter'angreal does not just go around sucking up the One Power.  Walking through a gateway is proof of this.  If the weave is not directed at him it will not be destroyed.  Two the Tower  is not necessarily a ter'angreal.  It could merely be the place where Finnland meets Randland.  There is an idea floating around that you walk around the tower three or four time to find the door.  If you consider the way reality bends in Finnland  there is no reason to believe that an intersection between the two dimensions wouldn't have at least some of the same properties.  Evidence or a different reality existing within the main one are the steading which not only block the source but feel different.<br />5.  You have to wonder if revenge would be a significant motivator  for him to stay behind.  He is accepting that he will marry the Doth NM and similarly I think he is coming to accept that he needed to go through what he went through in order to be who he needs to be for the last battle.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where did these Skimmers come from?  I mean if they didn't want to read the book they could have just Traveled to another author.  Why risk arriving at the wrong destination?  Why risk falling into darkness?</font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-10 17:41:51
subject: <b>...</b>
body:
Irrelevant? No. I don't think the questions about the Portal Stones are irrelevant at all. It's a perfectly good question, but as I said, the answers are so varied and so opinionated that I didn't want to get into them. The answers are so vast to that question that you might as well think of one that you believe in, because any one that I give, would most likely have recieved ten more questions. So. Again, no, I don't think they are irrelevant - I do think that an exact answer is irrelevant to the theory, without getting into a detail that's one to a million others.<br /><br />Second of all, activating a Portal Stone requires no knowledge. You channel into it. It was something that Rand can do when, not only did he have nobody to teach him, but also knew absolutely nothing about channeling, period. Activating a Portal Stone is something an Aes Sedai would be not, if there were any specific procedures (which they're aren't) and Mat has two of those. So to say it one more time: you don't need (much) knowledge or experience to activate a Portal Stone. Rand did it twice without knowing what the heck he was doing.<br /><br />As for Mat's ter'angreal... you don't have to believe in that bit. Again, that's a personal theory with no evidential support, nor is it even needed in order for the rest of my theory to happen. I merely stated it as a possible extra advantage, not a definite winning score for Mat. If it does turn out as I believe, that it does affect the dimension, then it would merely put the Finns more into Mat's power. And as for it being there before... it wasn't. We have never actually ever seen the medallion within the other dimension. My belief is that they created it when Mat left, and create it they did, because the fact that it's a foxhead with one eye is too much of a coincidence for the Foxes to have found it on some poor soul who entered long before, who just so happened not to pay a price. So yeah, I think it was just sort of... poofed... into existence as soon as Mat was once again into the real world.<br /><br />And I love you all for agreeing that Mat and Thom are really the only believable candidates and that nobody else could possibly be a member of the rescue party. But others seem to disagree. And most importantly, many people seem to think that there's going to be a little fiesta going on at the other dimension, with every character in the book included. And I even read a few theories around the internet that said that Olver was going to go - alone. Pfft. I thought it ridiculous to even mention why Mat and Thom would go, and why nobody else would go, but then, there were those theories...<br /><br />And lastly (I think (I hope!)) is that you're forgetting that I used to be absolutely-positively-100%(-anybody-who-thinks-otherwise-is-a-moron) to believe that Mat would lose an eye in the dimension. But like I said. It's not because it would increase the vengeance-scale, that was just an added bonus to my theory. I don't believe in it anymore because bargaining has no place in it. It really doesn't. In order for Mat to willingly give up an eye to save the world, means automatically that the Finns have control over him. Yes, things won't go exactly as planned - but no so far out that the Finns would be in such control over Mat that would force him to give up an eye. And besides, there's no way they would just bargain with him, they would skin him alive given the chance! He's cheated them and tried to murder them - that deserves more than an eye.<br /><br />But you want my opinion? They're going to give Mat one last piece of foretelling before they die. And that is going to tell Mat exactly what he will have to risk his eye for. Say it's Tuon. I think that, right before they die, the snakes are going to scream at him and let slip the fact that sooner or later, he's going to have to choose his eye for the woman he loves. (This is hypothetical, I am in no way insisting that he will weigh his eye against Tuon.) So when Mat leaves, he is going to be worrying and deciding over the choise - in a sense, weighing. But that's my opinion.


created: 2005-05-10 19:26:04
subject: <b>She is never coming back...</b>
body:
Due to the fact that she is dead - your whole theory is irrelevant.<br /><br />Your theory does not answer some questions:<br />1) Is Moiriane alive? You are saying yes, but Lan's bond was saying otherwise. If you think that the bond would not be affecive in Finns world - you are wrong. Moiraine already went once there. In Tear. And Lan didn't go nuts during this time, he didn't went searching the other AS. If Moiriane was alive when she and Lanfear went thru gateway - Lan would have known. From previous experience in Tear or from the bond itself. But he didn't. That clearly states that she is dead.<br /><br />2) Portal Stones require certain strength. Even combining the strength of the sisters with Mat, it may not be enough. Plus, they have to at least SUSPECT that it's possible. No sister would channel into any ter'angreal without knowing what it would do. No matter how you would try to convince her. I thought you'd know that up to now.<br /><br />


created: 2005-05-10 21:48:01
subject: <b>I doubt very much that the Finn are expert ter'angreal makers</b>
body:
I doubt very much that the Finn are expert ter'angreal makers.  The foxes and the snakes have many abilities but the ability to make any item they want out of thin air sounds to me to be too powerful and unecessary for the plot.  <br /><br />A much simpler explanation is that the foxes had the foxhead laying around so to speak.  But where could they have gotten it?<br /><br />Mat's foxhead medallion is similar to technology that was being devoloped at the time that Far Madding was created, right after the breaking.  Nynaeve has a bracelet that does something similar as well.  It isn't that much of a stretch to think that the foxhead could have been made in the same way.<br /><br />As far as to why the medallion is a foxhead I believe that it is Mat's ta'vereness.  Remember his sigil has a fox chasing ravens with moons around it.  He picked that up by chance and the Finn had nothing to do with that.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">RabidWombat<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> Let the Lord of Rambling Thoughts rule <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> Proud owner of a 2 star rating! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /> Someone stole all my cookies <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-11 04:56:47
subject: <b>Ramblings</b>
body:
A couple of points to add<br />1. I agree that Thom and Mat will be the key characters for Moiraine's rescue and they will go in through Tower of Ghenji (Mat can't use doorways anymore), but ... <br />What is the symbol on the Portal stone for the Tower of Ghenji?  Even if the AS link to operate, who will guide to them?<br />2. I still don't see where the 'cheat' fits in - Thom just walking in playing his harp doesn't quite sound right.  You would think this approach has been tried in the past.  If it were that simple to 'dazzle' the Finns, the matchsticks wouldn't be necessary - a normal torch would work well enough. And dealing with the Finns would be quite easy.<br />The Foxhead medallion blocks the One Power - Finns don't use the One Power.  Mat asked to be free of Aes Sedai and it works against their power not as a general shield.<br />Also, the ashanderi was given to Mat by the Finns.  If it could hurt to them (iron) they wouldn't have been able to - or wanted to give it away.  The inscription indicates that the bargain was made that he 'be returned to Ruidean' not that he is immune to the Finns.  <br />3. Mat will most likely play a big part in confronting the Finns.  Too much coincidence to feel otherwise.  He has the memories and the luck, but he doesn't necessarily need to lose his eye.  Egwene's dream says he rolls dice with blood on his face while Thom takes the blue stone.  This could just as easily be interpreted as Mat playing Snakes &amp; Foxes with the Finns (distracting them) while Thom saves Moiraine. Then the Tower blows up (cannon fire) and Mat has the Tower fall on him (thus the blood).  It's happened before, it could happen again. Silly, I know, but possible.<br />4. Why do Mat, Thom and Moiraine need to seperate?  If all else is correct and the rescue works, Moiraine will probably want to find Rand as soon as possible and as you said Mat needs to deal with the DotNM.  Story lines sound like a huge reunion in Seanchanland (where Mat loses his eye in a rescue attempt after Rand gets trapped by the Male a'dam and goes so crazy trying to free himself that he can't tell friend from foe and lashes out randomly with the OP hitting Mat by mistake).


created: 2005-05-11 13:30:25
subject: <b>Disagreeing and Agreeing with Aahzmandius</b>
body:
I disagree about Moiraine being dead.  Lan's reaction can be explained by Moiraine's own reference in the Stone.  The connection to Finnland can be broken.  As such their dimension was only connected to this one by that door.  So the &quot;signal&quot; that is sent between AS and Warder  can no longer pass through the doorway.  Also If you can imagine that one kind of connection is similar to another  then the snapping of one might lead to the snapping of the other.  There is also the possibility of her being severed evidenced by Cyndanes decreased strength.<br /><br />I am in agreement on the portal stones though.  The sisters with Mat even if strong enough don't know the symbol for the Tower.  And contrary to your opinion since Mat can't channel there is no reason to believe he has any clue as to which symbols Rand channeled into for the point to point transfer.  Nor which one to avoid in order not to relive all his possible lives.  Another point is that Rand was not completely ignorant.  He was with the only AS who knew the portal stone on Tomans head  but who did not know enough to make the point to point transfer.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where did these Skimmers come from?  I mean if they didn't want to read the book they could have just Traveled to another author.  Why risk arriving at the wrong destination?  Why risk falling into darkness?</font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-11 15:37:46
subject: <b>Good grief, Lionel!</b>
body:
Yes, it might not be enough Power even if the sisters were linked.<br /><br />Yes, Mat might lose an eye.<br /><br />Yes, the foxhead could have been found lying around.<br /><br />Yes, it might be too easy for Thom to stroll in playing the harp.<br /><br />Yes, the sisters might not know how to use the Portal Stone. <br /><br />But like I said, it doesn't have to be that way. You can change as many details as you want if you don't believe mine. You don't have to. I have it all laid out so precisely that there's no way in heck that it would all come to play exactly as I envision it, and I know that. But since you asked, I do have answers.<br /><br />If Thom does what I think he does, it won't be as easy as it sounds. If it were so easy to dazzle the foxes, as you said, than fire and iron won't be needed. All the music does is &quot;dazzle&quot; them long enough for Mat to &quot;blind&quot; them, and once they are blinded, they would be helpless when Mat attempts to bind them. It all falls in. And no matter how shiny something is, eventually, you get bored. Maybe somebody did try it. At which point, the foxes soon overcame the initial shock of the music and chopped 'em up. That's my guess. They won't be &quot;dazzled&quot; too long, and, no, it won't go as fast as dazzle-blind-bind.<br /><br />Why is everyone asking why Mat needs to be seperated from Moiraine? Because Moiraine would be useless dealing with the Seanchan with Mat, and Mat would be useless dealing with the White Tower. And why does Moiraine go to the White Tower instead of following Rand? Because she can do something there. She and Thom could bring Elaida down, thus freeing Egwene. And further more, why would she go right after Rand? The man hops from Illian to Tear to Caihrien in a day, like she would be able to find him! Her best bet is to go where he is bound to end up sooner or later, or learn how to make a gateway from Egwene so she can chase Rand. So, no, she can't follow Rand. He moves around too much for anybody to follow him when they don't know what his exact destinations are. How does she find out about Rand's frog-hopping days? Thom tells her. How does Thom know? From Mat and his spying. How does Mat know?... And if Rand ends up going to Ebou Dar to speak with the false Daughter, why can't she be there? Again, because she would be useless at that point. But in the White Tower, she can do a heck of a lot.<br /><br />I didn't want to get into too much detail on the Portal Stones, because somebody else has an entire theory on how it works. Read it. But to summarize it, remember the symbol you have to trace in the air each time before you begin the game? At one point, Olver commented on it, and asked Mat why they had to do that. Well, that's the symbol on the Portal Stone. The author also brought up some past definitions of Portal Stones, in which the symbol from the game of foxes (another way it comes into play) was described now and then.<br /><br />And why do I think they poofed the medallion into existence? Because there is no way in heck that they can have absolutely everything that is asked for, especially when people undoubtedly got into details. What if you asked for a statue of yourself? Oh, yes, I'm sure they had that lying around. And frankly, I don't think they can refuse your wish. If they could, they would have given Mat nothing. I think that they are bound by their creation to have to answer your questions, or to have to give you exactly what you want. <br /><br /><br />Aaaaaand I'm tired.


created: 2005-05-11 17:55:40
subject: <b>It's not a theory then and you shouldn't have submitted it</b>
body:
If none of the details are important then you could have went to the message board and said hey everybody I think when Mat and Thom go into the Tower he's going to be separated from Thom and Moiraine and be transported somewhere else.  You guys can make the rest up as you wish.<br /><br />Then the majority of the group could have said that since Mat is with Tuon and Tuon needs to meet Rand that Moiraine should be with Mat so that when Tuon meets Rand she can be there as well.  Since everyone also needs to meet Egwene they will all end up at the Tower to save it from Seanchan and AS machinations<br /><br />As for Portal stones even if they know one symbol there is no guaratee that the will know the second and Rand used two symbols both times.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where did these Skimmers come from?  I mean if they didn't want to read the book they could have just Traveled to another author.  Why risk arriving at the wrong destination?  Why risk falling into darkness?</font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-11 18:29:47
subject: <b>No portal stones but...</b>
body:
The symbols on the portal stones could be the same as the symbols on the terangreal doorways and Mat has seen them both.<br /><br />But I don't believe in portal stones...I think it much more probable that they will travel the conventional way (foot/horse/boat) to the tower and enter by circling it three times in counter clockwise direction (or was it the other way around).<br />


created: 2005-05-13 10:49:23
subject: <b>side comments</b>
body:
Min saw that Rand would fail without a 'woman dead and gone' is I believe the quote. Why is that woman Moiraine? I think it is Morgase, who just happens to fit another prophecy, about the ruling house of Andor being needed to win the last battle. Everyone thinks she is dead, too. Min had a viewing that 'failed' about Moiraine, but we don't know if her two are the same. <br /><br />Moiraine is probably burned out, like Lanfear was. Lanfear was healed by a woman, that is why she came back weaker. Men heal women to full strength, and women heal men to full strength. Damer will heal Moiraine and she will be as strong or stronger than Lanfear is now, then she will settle Lanfear's hash.<br /><br />Mat is certainly not going to take a little boy into the Tower. But Olver will sneak in after them, saving the day! Perhaps he will trick the foxes and snakes into sitting down to play his game...<br /><br />I can't figure out where the iron comes from. Music is Thom and Mat's voices, they both sing a lot, in fact Mat always seems to be humming or singing under his breath. I think he will be thoughtlessly singing along 'I am down at the bottom of a well and the rain is coming in...' all the while driving the foxes just MAD. Fire is the fire sticks, or possible guns. But iron? No clever thoughts.


created: 2005-05-13 11:32:35
subject: <b>Foxhead</b>
body:
Almira stated:<br />We have never actually ever seen the medallion within the other dimension. My belief is that they created it when Mat left, and create it they did, because the fact that it's a foxhead with one eye is too much of a coincidence for the Foxes to have found it on some poor soul who entered long before, who just so happened not to pay a price.<br /><br />I strongly disagree with this, since the foxhead originally did have two eyes! It lost one only due to Melindhras attack with a knife...<br />Besides I used to connect the Ashandarei and the foxhead with Rhuidean. The Finn might not be able to act directly in this dimension but could those nice little things not have been lying around Rhuidean, being attracted to Mat's Ta'verenness by a little help of our friends? <br /><br />Greets, Ina


created: 2005-05-15 19:05:03
subject: <b>Ark.</b>
body:
ONARISHMA:<br />Yes, the details are important to me. Why else would I put so much of them into my theory? Because its the details that holds everything together, that makes it all work. It's the details that makes the theory possible. But I'm talking about the details of the details. Not the How do they get there, which is a detail itself, but the How do they get what they need to get there. Taking a car is a detail for How to get there. Deciding how to get the car is a smaller detail, and whether you buy it, loan it, or steal it, so long as you have the car it fits in. Those details are interchangeable; that's what I'm trying to say. If you don't believe the option I've given you, you can make your own, whatever works. I've just tried to tell you that it's not a random idea that makes no sense and has no possible way of occuring. <br /><br />Second of all, yes, Mat is with Tuon and she does need to meet Rand. But in order for her to be even remotely useful, she has to be Empress, not the Daughter of the Nine Moons. Currently, she doesn't have the power to make such a large decision for her entire nation, without consulting the actual Empress. And by the time they free Moiraine, she won't have all that power yet, nor will her people be yet willing to make such drastic changes in their culture. And I did mention this in my theory. That is why Mat and Moiraine will seperate. Mat will go back to Tuon to help her gain the Throne, reveal the sul'dam secret and the prospect of unleashing sul'dam, and stay with Tuon to unite her people under her. While all that's happening, Moiraine will help with the White Tower. And soon Tuon will have her people willing to follow her, rather than overthrowing her and rebelling, as they would have, if she said, &quot;Oh by the way, we're not leashing sul'dam anymore and the Dragon Reborn won't serve us. We made an agreement, and it's official.&quot;  And if they did overthrow her, then the agreement with Rand would be rendered useless.) And when that happens, when Tuon has complete compliance and loyalty from her people, that is when she will meet up with Rand and make everything official, and that is when Moiraine will step in and be a member to their treaty. An alliance between Seanchan and Dragonsworn won't happen anytime soon. And while we're waiting, why not put Moiraine to some use?  <br /><br />As for the Portal Stones. Each time, he only used one symbol, what are you talking about? The symbol to &quot;the true world&quot; is a circle with a triangle in it. I checked. And the symbol he used to go to Toman Head was an arrow peircing a circle. Verin knew about the symbols, what's to say that Teslyn or Joline or Edesina don't know it? After all, Mat's ta'veren. He's bound to have sucked in at least one Aes Sedai who knows what he needs to know. Or is the &quot;second symbol&quot; to go back? Again, if they would know any symbol, they would know the symbol for their world. The symbol to the Tower is probably the one on the game. But, if they don't know the symbol for their reality, then as I said, they won't need it, anyway. Moiraine and Thom will leave the Tower through the Doorframe. Mat will use something else (either the foxes will whisk him away like they did to Rhuidean, or the three spires he kept seeing in Tear is a sort of Portal Stone, or the snakes or foxes will activate a Portal Stone for him) but either way, that symbol won't even be needed. <br /><br />T.NEO<br />The problem is that, keep in mind, there's 2-3 books. It'll take like a month to get to the Tower a conventional way, because Mat's all the way down south, and Whitebridge is all the way up. And that's the Last Battle included. And saving Moiraine isn't that important to spend a month doing it, compared to the other things that needs to be done (ie, dealing with the Seanchan.)<br /><br />INA<br />The foxhead always had one eye, what are you talking about?


created: 2005-05-16 18:57:04
subject: <b>On the details</b>
body:
I think we are having a serious communication problem.<br />Your theory while interesting is not based on anything but opinion.  There is no textual support for any of it except for who is going.  And while like you I don't understand why anyone would believe that there would be a large group going writing a theory trying to prove who is going is not terribly relevant because Thom is the only one who has any future events directly connected to Moiraine and therefore the only one anyone can have textual support for.  I'll grant you that Mat as an educated guess is also reasonable but everything else is conjecture.<br /><br />You have three supportable opinions<br />1. Moiraine is alive<br />2. Thom will save Moiraine<br />3.  Mat will probably help him<br />After that they are all as far as I can tell products of your imagination that may or may not be accurate.<br />1.  That there is some reason that the party needs to rush.  RJ can write a week  in one sentence if all you're worried about is book space.<br />2.  That the means to enter the Tower will not be sufficent to exit it.  i.e. that Fire Iron and Music won't be effective on the way out.  Which forces Mat to stay behind.<br />3.  That bargining is not a reasonable alternative.<br />4.  That Mat has some sort of upper hand.<br /><br />My objections as well as others are based on the fact that since the things listed above are already pure opinions you need to provide plausible ways for them to be true.  The ways you provided where not plausible to many of us and that is what our posts were about.  What I feel your responses indicate is that we should supply our own ideas to support your opinions.  That is inappropriate to a theory.  When we tell you that portal stones are not reasonable we are also trying to tell you that if you could give us a good method we might be persuaded that there is a way to rush and therefore a reason to but currently I know I don't see any reason for urgency or special means and it is your job to convince me that there is.  To refer to your last resonse you haven't convinced me that you need a car.  But I do know that you don't have one and that getting one would be more trouble than just walking.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where did these Skimmers come from?  I mean if they didn't want to read the book they could have just Traveled to another author.  Why risk arriving at the wrong destination?  Why risk falling into darkness?</font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-17 02:31:38
subject: <b>Support</b>
body:
The main problem people have pointed out so far is the problem of Portal stones.<br /><br />In support, I say that first, and least of all, all the other methods take too long. So by process of elimination...<br /><br />Second, and quite importantly, everyone seems to have forgoten Matt's future wife.<br />As a very high Seanchan lady, she could order a damane to operate the portal stones for them. It cant be too hard to use, Rand figured it out. Where can they get the symbols from? Heaps of places: Matt's memory, Seanchan folk law, They could be in Thom's letter... anywhere.<br /><br />Then another detail would be, since Tuon(sp) will realise that she helped get them get into the tower, she'll have a cry and scream at Matt untill he lets her come too. Or she'll just tag along uninvited.


created: 2005-05-17 17:31:15
subject: <b>Stepping down after this.</b>
body:
Onarishma...<br />Keep in mind is that everything Mat does in the Tower is in correlation with the other characters. <br /><br />I've said that Moiraine and Thom are the ones who are going to bring down Elaida. That won't happen if they spend a month travelling the practical way. <br /><br />I've said that Tuon needs to actually be Empress in order to be useful, and that won't happen if she's waiting for Mat for a month. Or, heck, if she's with Mat on some journey that doesn't affect her at all for a month.<br /><br />I've said that Rand and Tuon neeed to form an alliance. That won't happen unless Tuon actually has the authority to completely alter her nation - and that won't happen if she's still in hiding for a month. <br /><br />Yes, a week can happen in a sentence. Yes, a month can happen in a page. <br /><br />But first of all, for the past five books, the beginnings of his books have happened the day of or the day before the ending of the previous book. For the past five books, rather than having months go by in a sequel, a week or two goes by. I'm not getting my hopes up. Chances are, this book will take two weeks (albeit, a very busy two weeks.)<br /><br />Second of all, while a month can be written in a sentence, how does that effect everything and everyone else around them? That's a month more when people are already seeing the dead. That's a month more of Egwene being captive. That's a month more of Rand believing the fake Daughter is the real Daughter and making no progress with the Seanchan. That's a month more of Tuon being a captive, with no authority at all of her people. That's a month more of the seals &quot;weakening&quot; when they've been doing so for three years. A month! Do you know what a month is in Jordan time? Saving Moiraine isn't even a top priority, and there's no way that more than one month will pass in this book. Right now, Mat is at the center of everything, and to dither around for a month on a boat puts the whole book at a stalemate.<br /><br />So while it might be easy to write it in a sentence,when I say &quot;it needs to be rushed&quot; I don't mean book space - I'm thinking they need to be rushed because they have to help the other characters around them, and the situations those characters are in aren't likely to be dallied for a month. <br /><br />Now. I hate debates. I get passionate, argumentative, and a little spasmic. Plus my wrists hurt. So I'm backing out. <br /><br />I just couldn't let this lie.


created: 2005-05-17 17:35:14
subject: <b>In regard to Portal Stones</b>
body:
I went back and reread the three different Portal Stone events.  In two out of three Rand channeled into one symbol.   So in that respect you were right.  Particularly you were right that Mat and Co. would only need to use one.  However I knew I wasn't crazy and if you reread the chapter where they use the Portal stone to travel to Falme you'll see that not only were two symbols mentioned but that two were used.  When Rand is channeling into the arrow and circle it keeps changing to the wavy lines and squiggle.  I apologize for my error in thinking that you always needed two but this chapter was much more memorable than the scene with Selene or the trip to Rhuidean.<br /><br />Oh and to the person above me.  If Tuon has access to damane there are several problems.  The most important being that she is no longer a &quot;prisoner&quot; and is therefore unlikely to risk allowing the Toy free reign.  The second most important thing is that as far as we know damane can not link and therefore are not guranteed to have enough power to operate the portal stones.  If you are going to use Tuon then you have access to another form of travel though.  Raken would be significantly faster than horses and would be less complicated than portal stones and therefore a more reasonable option.  Of course thats assuming that Tuon's threat of slavery is idle or at least void at the time she is &quot;rescued&quot;.<br /><br />Also I wish someone would provide me with a textual reason why Mat or Thom would feel it necessary to rush when currently they are traveling at the slow pace of the Menagerie.  I mean Moiraine has been assumed dead for months now and unless Thom and Mat know for sure that the Finns are about to actually kill her or that Rand needs her now there is no incentive to find faster means of travel.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where did these Skimmers come from?  I mean if they didn't want to read the book they could have just Traveled to another author.  Why risk arriving at the wrong destination?  Why risk falling into darkness?</font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-17 18:14:52
subject: <b>Opinions and more opinions</b>
body:
You do realize that it is your opinion that Moiraine and Thom are necessary to bring down Elaida.<br />And that it is your opinion that the DotNM is useless even though it was my impression she was there to head the Return which would be a very powerful position.  Please note also that the fake DotNM is the one the Dragon is making a treaty with leading one to believe that she is powerful enough to accomplish a treaty.  If she didn't have authority why not just have him meet with Suroth.  Telling him about the DotNM is unnecessary unless she has real power that would be recognized by Seanchan in case Tuon doesn't come back.<br /><br />The point I was trying to make and am still trying to make is that supporting an opinion with an opinion does not make the first opinion more concrete.  All you have to do to dispute it then is to provide an opinion that is in disagreement and then it all falls apart.<br /><br />The half idea I mentioned above is a more realistic circumstance to me than the portal stone.  Rand realizing that Mat isn't were he thinks he is and coming to find him is more reasonable and has more textual support.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where did these Skimmers come from?  I mean if they didn't want to read the book they could have just Traveled to another author.  Why risk arriving at the wrong destination?  Why risk falling into darkness?</font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-18 07:15:12
subject: <b>Aludra...</b>
body:
I've always thought Aludra would be involved, with the whole bellfounder thing (using iron and fire to create cannons), and we know that she will be involved in the Matt storyline at some stage. Maybe they make a cannon, and blast the tower to rubble! Or perhaps something more subtle....<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> Vaguely Remembered <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-23 15:29:26
subject: <b>rand</b>
body:
I think Rand will also save Moiraine because he has a very big motive.<br /><br />&quot;Moiraine, many other names where on his list, but hers was the top. She died because he had not been able to do what was needed......&quot;<br /><br />He blames himself for her death, as he blames hismelf for many other womans deaths, and would jump at the chance to take her name off his list of the dead.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Journey to the Tiger Sea,<br />Where legends die and stories be,<br />Where royalty rise and fall,<br />And Wotmania rules them all.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-06-17 21:07:50
subject: <b>ONARISHMA...</b>
body:
I would have stayed back like I had said I would, but then I realized that I - somehow - had avoided answering one of your initial questions, and also a concern you've been raising (I believe) in almost every post you've made.<br /><br />That's about time.<br /><br />I don't know how I managed to avoid giving your a full answer, but I figured I might as well get that cleared up, because that's something I think where most of our arguments sparked from. So here's a little something I wrote for you, so you could better understand how these events might occur. <br /><br />-----------------------------<br /><br />Mat: Why do you keep reading that letter Thom?<br />Thom: I think Moiraine might be alive Mat! Look! She swore she would see me again!<br />Mat: That doesn't mean anything. She's Aes Sedai. Thom, put all this foolishness behind you. She's dead. I saw her.<br />Thom: Maybe you're right Mat. Maybe you're right. <br /><br />[2 days later, of which Mat spent wooing Tuon]<br /><br />Olver: Mat why do we say that? Courage to strengthen, fire to blind, music to dazzle, iron to bind?<br />Mat: I don't know. Sounds familiar though. Hey! I remember now! That's what they asked me when I went into those doorways! Bloody snakes. Bloody foxes.<br />Olver: That's weird because the board game is called that! Snakes and Foxes!<br />Mat: Well no wonder you can't win. They always cheat. Bloody cheates. Bloody snakes and bloody foxes. <br /><br />[5 days later, of which Mat spent inventing a cannon]<br /><br />Mat: Noal, what made up nonsense are you telling Olver now?<br />Olver: It's not made up Mat! Is it Noal?<br />Thom: (sulk)<br />Noal: Of course not. Why, I was just telling Olver about the time I nearly ran over a moose. That was in a car. Shara has cars. Did you know that Mat? Why I remember when I went to Shara with Suzan. She was an Andoran I met a while back. Lovely place, Andor. Why, did I tell you about the time three Queen's Guards chased me all the way to Whitebridge? Whitebridge is very pretty. Have you been there Mat? They have this Tower of steel there.<br />Mat: I remember that (glare)<br />Noal: I heard alot of stories. They say there's no way in.<br />Olver: What's inside?<br />Noal: They say its a portal to another dimension, where you could get whatever you asked for and all the answers to all your questions.<br />Mat: Hey! That's like those red doorways! Oops.<br />Thom: That's it! The Tower! We have to go Mat! We have to go now!<br />Mat: Are you insane? We don't know anything. Maybe it can lead us to those doorways, but we don't know tha tfor sure. If you think I'm going to stick my head in a hornet's nest for you, forget it. And besides, I'm not riding on a bloody horse and sleeping in bushes all the way to Whitebridge. <br />Thom: Fine! (stomps off)<br /><br />[2 days later, of which Mat's party is attacked by Seanchan]<br /><br />Olver: Mat why do we draw those symbols in the air?<br />Mat: I don't know Olver<br />Teslyn: Those do be symbols on a Portal Stone<br />Mat: That's nice. Not.<br />Olver: You have to roll the dice Mat. Ever since that fall off Wind broke both my wrists...<br />Mat: (rolls dice) (they win) (yaaay)<br />Teslyn: That do be impossible! I do no believe it! You do did win! Burn me but you do did do! <br />Olver: Yaay we won huzzah<br />Mat: Doesn't count anyway. I cheated. I have weird luck.<br />Teslyn: You do need to cheat to win, Mat. That do be the point of the game.<br />Mat: Cheat, eh? You probably bring in some iron and all that. They didn't seem to like it last time I went.<br /><br />[7 days later, of which Mat was captured then rescued]<br /><br />Thom: We need to go<br />Mat: No<br />Thom: Why? We can get there with a Portal Stone. I heard Teslyn! We have 3 sisters and there's 2 of us. And we wonm't spend days on a saddle and sleeping on the ground. Please!<br />Mat: I'm not taking any bloody portal stones!<br />Thom: Then we'll ride!<br />Mat: No!<br />Thom: Yes!<br />Mat: NO!!!<br />Thom: Fine! (stomps away)<br /><br />[3 days pass of which the gholam attacks and Mat kills it. Thom sulks and glares at Mat.]<br /><br />Mat: Alright Thom I'll go!<br /><br />-----------------------------<br /><br />I just mentioned all the options of travelling to explain you why they will not use those options. In reality, I doubt they're going to sit down and discuss travelling methods, particularly with speed. Speaking of speed. They're not going to TRY to go fast. What I tried to get across is that the fast things were going to seem like the ONLY things to do at the time. For example - they won't think of raken or Travelling. They'll realize that they can get inside the Tower with a Portal Stone and focus on that, if that makes sense. So the EVENTS will HAPPEN in a small amount of time, but they will not TRY to make it happen fast. They will just happen that way. And as you can see, alot is happening in between, so its not like 10 consecutive chapters will be devoted entirely to Moiraine's rescue. <br /><br />I hope that helped some.


created: 2005-07-04 22:23:57
subject: <b>The Wheel weaves as the Wheel wills.</b>
body:
It's a thought provoking theory, with parts of which I agree and others don't, but nothing leaped out at me as being contradicted by the text (time spent over at Planet Tolkien has me conscious of this, as they refer to the LotR+Silmarillion as &quot;the canon&quot; and presumably HoME is Apocrypha.)  On the other hand, nothing in the text absolutely requires it either.  Sections of it imply both a return of Moiraine and a more intimate connection than we have thus far seen between Mat (and I thought I was the only one who thought he was the best character, but have since learned otherwise) and the Tower of Ghenjei (or at least its residents.)  These sections have been elsewhere vivisectioned at length so I'll not Delve it now other than to say the implication is clear, but it's not a given.<br /><br />The problem in all this, of course, is that it is just speculation.  It's interesting, but we'll find out in the appointed time.  Meanwhile, the only thing more dubious than speculation about how threads may be resolved are critiques of such speculation (you may have to eat your words later) in the absence of conflict with the text.  I concur in the assessment that the doorway was the link between here and there and its destruction accounts for the severing of the Warder bond; if another interface existed Moiraine likely would have used it by now.  While no affiliation is stated for the Aelfinn of the Eelfinn, the DO (like most tyrants) isn't a big fan of diversity, so unless they are active participants in his schemes it would seem a case of &quot;the enemy of my enemy is my friend&quot; (a time worn rule in WoT.)  It's worth noting that Lanfear and Moiraine BOTH had angreals when they went through the doorway, so unless one was substantially stronger than the other Lanfear should have handled her easily (what a battle with the Power would do inside the Tower I don't want to think about, but it certainly explains what happened to the doorway.)<br /><br />I also suspected from the outset that Mat would literally lose his eye playing with gunpowder, and have no idea why the Ghenjei folk let the steel slide since you can't make steel without iron.  IF compelling evidence is revealed that Moiraine is alive (and bear in mind that the return of Lanfear is hardly common knowledge,) or even that a way in AND OUT of the Tower exists I suspect Rand will risk his destiny and the fate of the world to assauge his guilt (as we've seen him do before) and, unless the Tower is made of cuendillar (there's a lovely thought,) balefire would go through it like a hot knife through butter.  On the other hand, (if I had any left) I'm not certain whether you can balefire PART of something or if balefiring any part of it results in the destruction of the whole (not that that would necessarily be a disaster in this case.)  It's even theoretically possible, given the adversarial relationship (at least the one implied) between the Aelfinn/Eelfinn and the Shadow that they're tending Moiraines wounds from her fight with Lanfear and will release he when she's well.  Ultimately, it's all just spitballing and we'll find out together.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Warder to the unrivalled Rival.  Let the competition (such as it is) fear my wrath!<br /><br /><i>For full disclosure, subtract ~2000 from my CMB views.</i><br /><br />Love can't be coerced.<br /><br />Seek in Joel what goodness God gave me; seek the ill no more, for it and I are dead.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-09-08 23:58:49
subject: <b>portal stones</b>
body:
Has anyone thought of tuon... she CAN channel (or &quot;learn to&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />. As far as who will know the symbols I THINK it will be Noal, as was posted above, he knows a lot of wierd stuff like that. Finding one shouldn't be too hard considering that Rand had a map showing the location of some portal stones (but then again why can't one the AS with him or even a sul'dam(althogh i'm not sure if they would admit it) learn it by running into maybe alanna or verin or ..........).<br /><br />i liked everything else as far as who and most of how but, hello people, aren't chains iron and don't they bind (IF the binding is not figurative)? if it is a figurative binding, an agreement doesn't seem too far fetched, don't y'all think someone who could see the pattern would be handy at the last battle?.....   <br /><br />i'm beginning to get my own theory thing going here in a slightly different dirrection ,so i'll stop now <br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />


created: 2005-10-26 22:29:51
subject: <b>So much fighting back and forth! JUST READ BOOK 11</b>
body:
1. Is Moiraine alive to be rescued?<br />2. Who/how/when/why etc will she be rescued if she is alive?<br />3. How will her returning affect the LB at TG?<br />4. How to write this post without spoilers?!!--well here goes...<br /><br />For years the debate has grown heated and sometimes down right dirty over the fate of Moiraine. (you know who you are!!) There are those who adamantly state that she will return based on Min's viewing, and there are those who defend that she is dead based on Lan's anouncement that the bond was broken. Both ideas are well thought out and well grounded on information that has so far been recieved by R.Jordan.<br /> <br />I have always believed (hoped really) that Moiraine's still alive. However after more than five books later she still hasn't been rescued. No move has been made in the direction to rescue her.  The only time she is mentioned it seems is to point out that Rand feels responsible, Rand can't win without her, and how Min is NEVER wrong.  <br /><br />Now trying to do this without spoiling book 11 for those of you who so OBVIOUSLY haven't read it yet is not going to be easy.  Suffice it to say that Min is NEVER wrong and let it go people.  Moiraine sent Thom a letter, okay we know this right? Its been mentioned several times. What we don't know is what it says. (until now that is) I'm not going to tell you so just read the bleeping book.<br /><br />Portal stones? HA!  Sorry to sound so condescending, but maybe Birgitte and Olver know more than you do. Give them some credit, I mean Olver has to be in this story for a reason right?  It's a great theory, the portal stones I mean, its just probably not the best choice given the fact that no one knows how to use them.  <br /><br />So far questions 1 &amp; most of 2 have been answered by book 11. READ IT! As for question 3, I have my own theories, but so far Jordan has not graced us with his answer.  <br /><br />My theory goes something like this for question 3: Rand has a growing list of women who have died either for him or because of him and Moiraine is at the top of this list &quot;burned into his soul&quot;. We also know that Rand must learn to laugh/cry yadda yadda yadda.  Wouldn't it make his emotional barrier crumble if the woman who was his &quot;mentor&quot; (term used loosely) comes back from the perverbial dead to aid him in the last battle?  I know I'll be happy. Then all the arguing back and forth between dead and not dead, Portal Stones not portal stones, stilled not stilled, on and on and on will stop and we can go back to Elaida and Cadsuane bashing. (not that I'm totally against these two. I believe they are just irritating)<br /><br />So before the world catches fire from all the Flaming going on, maybe you should READ BOOK 11.  <br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br />&quot;Mother, mother ocean, I have heard you call,<br />Wanted to sail upon your waters since I was three feet tall...Yes, I am a pirate two hundred years too late. The cannons don't thunder there's nothin' to plunder...&quot; <br />   -J. Buffet<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2007-03-03 11:07:22
subject: <b>Some interesting cogs to throw into the gears.</b>
body:
First, neither portalstones nor Travelling could enter the Tower. RJ has already stated that the dimension that the Finns live in is outside of the Pattern and operates by its own rules (in his answer to a question about if they are using a T'A'R dreaming to see the future). Portalstones only travel to alternate versions of this reality and Travelling is described as connecting two seperate points in the Pattern via a bore (the gateway itself). Skimming is likewise discounted for the same reasons.<br /><br />Second, at this point it is not possible for Mat's foxhead to destroy their dimensions. See the above. The dimension they reside within is reachable through Ter'angreal but apparently is not in and of itself a part of those ter'angreal. Probably very similar to waygates in its fundamental idea (a pocket dimension with ter'angreal access points bridging the gap).<br /><br />Third, there is an answer provided about the foxhead which implies heavily that the foxhead was not created by the Finn : In one of the Q&amp;As with RJ someone asked if it shielded dreams and RJ's response was : &quot;Yes, although that sideaffect was never originally intended for it.&quot; He has also stated that the Finn cannot influence the Pattern. These things added together make it sound very likely that the foxhead was created during the Age of Legends, possibly connected to or from the same research that allowed for the Gholams and via serendipity, ta'veren or the flapping of butterfly wings in China, was brought into their scope of reach.<br /><br />Lastly, Moiraine is alive. The Finn depend on balance. If Cyndane escapes, they must have seen it in the future, along with the return of Matrim. Cyndane exchanged her former life to walk out, it seems only fitting that the Finn would hold Moiraine as well expecting for a 'life' to be exchanged for her too. To kill her fails to keep that precious balance that they seem to covet.


created: 2007-04-13 14:59:53
subject: <b>portal stones not likly</b>
body:
First off if they could use the stone it only brings them to that world doesn't let them in the tower *and a previous posted stated how the stones wouldn't work to go to Finnland*<br />But even if they did it wouldn't work on matt it uses the power and the power can't touch him while he wears the medallion so take it off you might say &#8230; ok but then how does he bring it to Finnland to suck up the world *which I don&#8217;t believe that theory anyway*.<br /><br />To eqwene19 *time stamp posts FTW* they didn&#8217;t know about book 11 yet so they can&#8217;t reference it yet. But yes a lot is reviled in that book.<br />


created: 2007-05-06 21:35:30
subject: <b>yeah but........</b>
body:
How are Mat and Thom going to use a portal stone?  Neither one of them can channel, and I can't see any of the Aes Sedai that are traveling with them knowing how to work one, or correctly indentifying the symbol to take them where they need to go.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">nicci24  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shakefist.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/oh2.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smackhead.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-10 06:47:14
subject: <b>Wow, you're such a genius!</b>
body:
First Post!  And, might I add, why are you wasting time post theories here when you could be solving the world'sproblems?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-10 06:48:30
subject: <b>Some responses</b>
body:
Cannoli<br /><br />You're absolutely right.  No need to be snippy about it though.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-10 09:03:12
subject: <b>*is shocked Cannoli*</b>
body:
you would spam your own theory in this way ? Shouldn't I have let this one through ? Or were you bored ? Or just wanted some responses ? Will delete this theory, if you want me to ?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Founding member of the ASI</b><br /><br /><b>TP ADMIN</b><br /><br /><b>Simon</b><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-10 10:21:23
subject: <b>It seemed a lot funnier on a sugar high</b>
body:
Simon,<br />I was hoping to read a new theory and found my own instead.  They used to take  a lot longer to get posted before you took over, so I didn't think mine would be out already.  Imagine seeing a WoT book with a variant cover.  At first glance you think &quot;Oh something new to read,&quot; but when you open it, you recognize it.  That's what I felt when I saw a new theory, and when I got a look at the title, I was disappointed, so I decided to &quot;respond&quot; anyway.  I had just drunk a pint of Quick for breakfast and my sense of humor can be a bit off-putting in times like that.  That was a really quick turnaround on the posting, by the way.  I think I submitted that yesterday!  You're really committed to maintaining that 0 Pending theories stat, I see.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-10 13:18:49
subject: <b>I actually enjoyed it...</b>
body:
It looks real, feels real, and has a strong possibility of fitting the facts we have available... I like it. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Warder to Be'lal's Girl<br />Wotmania Lottery<br /><br /><br /><br />&quot;Meh. A good relationship is like fireworks: loud, explosive, and liable to maim you if you hold on too long.&quot; ~ Sven, Questionable Content<br /><br />Bonded by Sidious. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-10 13:37:11
subject: <b>It's not a theory, but I like it</b>
body:
You've accurately summarized the facts we know about Verin. Good job.<br /><br />The only remaining issue here - why is she doing that? It's been clear she has some major plan she has been working on for many years. What is the plan?


created: 2005-05-10 13:48:12
subject: <b>Response to Cannoli</b>
body:
I, for one, like your humor. Great theory too, if theory it is. Like it.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Democracy - two wolves and a sheep deciding what to have for dinner</font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-10 14:18:26
subject: <b>Let me start with Dude, this is a Great Post</b>
body:
Now,<br />You have answered and put in order a lot of my questions about Verin. So thank you. Yet, my one question regarding Verin (that might have been answered somewhere else) is Was Verin one of the Old Amyrlin's seekers for the Dragon Reborn as Moiraine, Suian and other known and &quot;presumed&quot; others were in New Spring? <br />If she is one of the seekers, then IMHO, that makes more sense to me than any Aes Sedai having the brains and &quot;cahones&quot; to plan on assisting the Drgon Reborn on her , versus the white tower and all that it has taught and instilled. <br />If she is not one of the seekers, and is in fact doing this on her own, that shows a lot of faith (becoming an apprentice, manipulating her sisters, the loss of free will in using the power, the oath of fealty, etc...)<br />I welcome your feedback...


created: 2005-05-10 15:51:21
subject: <b>me likey</b>
body:
definitely like the theory, and am definitely with skeeve...why why why is she doing this?  love verin's character (not in the least since she is the only not-stunning female in these gd books) but am constantly annoyed that we do not know her background/motives.  grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;It's ridiculous to suggest that a team could go through a season in our league without losing. It's comical, just comical.&quot; Alex Ferguson 27th September 2002<br /><br />gooner...red and white army...<br /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gimli.gif" border="0" /> my soulmate<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/clown.gif" border="0" /> my nemesis</font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-10 17:30:17
subject: <b>yaya.... We like, we like... yaddayadda</b>
body:
But whats her motives?? We <i>need</i> a theory on this... (I did wote yes, btw)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perplexed.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smackhead.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /> LLT <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-10 17:45:56
subject: <b>In response to the Seekers Issue:</b>
body:
I don't actually believe she is one of Tamra's secret searchers.  I think Verin is a total wildcard.  Remember, the Amyrlin's choices were trustworthy veterans who were known for their rectitude and obedience.  Verin has too many question marks and there are definite hints of her independence and lack of fine ethics sometimes.  I doubt the group that Moiraine observed Tamra assembling would ever poison or Compel another sister over issues that weren't obviously life or death.  Verin has done one and was prepared to do the other, and it was over a difference of political opinion and planned course of action.  Cadsuane makes use of Verin, and obviously recognizes her intelligence and competence (even letting her lead a circle, which she only allowed her two most trusted sisters to do), but as evidenced by her manipulations in CoT, she doesn't trust her fully, and leaves mysteries to keep Verin distracted.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-11 01:12:33
subject: <b>Another note on Tamra's searchers.</b>
body:
After reading New Spring, I assumed that all of Tamra's searchers were killed by the Black Ajah after Tamra was questioned and murdered.  I think that's a solid point against Verin having been part of Tamra's inner circle.


created: 2005-05-11 02:08:02
subject: <b>Cannoli you rock!</b>
body:
Well done mate, very well done indeed. Apart from the above noted criticism that this is not really a theory as much of an astute summary of Verin, her motives and dress-sense, it remains a very well constructed summary and proposition. <br /><br />Keep it up, once again a pleasure to read.


created: 2005-05-11 06:29:01
subject: <b>Cannoli</b>
body:
I see what you're saying. You were hoping for a new theory and ended up reading one your own. (Well there's a few more there now for your enjoyment) Definitely committed. It helps me keep up with the posted theories and hopefully keeps those that read interested in the TP and keeps those who have submitted a theory not waiting long to see if their theory was accepted or rejected. Anyway keep those theories coming. I enjoy see a new theory from you submitted .<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Founding member of the ASI</b><br /><br /><b>TP ADMIN</b><br /><br /><b>Simon</b><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-13 06:43:50
subject: <b>one thing only</b>
body:
...<br />i mostly agreee with the summery but there is one thing that bothers me.. perhaps the discussion is on a to high level but for this question but how would Verin be able to kill Cadsuane? i mean, she has taken the oaths, right?<br />or have i missed something here?


created: 2005-05-13 13:21:27
subject: <b>but what about trying to compel Rand?</b>
body:
Didn't Verin link with Alannah the Green Ajah who bonded Rand and tried to compel him in TGH?  how does that fit in with Verin not interfering with Rand?


created: 2005-05-13 23:46:48
subject: <b>Response to vargtass</b>
body:
Aes Sedai take an oath not to kill using the One Power. Verin was going to use an overdose of sleeping powder to kill Cadsuane.


created: 2005-05-14 18:28:08
subject: <b>Stampey...</b>
body:
Verin and Alana did not link in tGH, I don't think they said more than two words to each other in that book. Later, when Alana bonds Rand (in tSR IIRC) she and Verin talk about linking, but they never did. Unless you've got a quote, more accurate than tGH that is. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Warder to Be'lal's Girl<br />Wotmania Lottery<br /><br /><br /><br />&quot;Meh. A good relationship is like fireworks: loud, explosive, and liable to maim you if you hold on too long.&quot; ~ Sven, Questionable Content<br /><br />Bonded by Sidious. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-15 11:46:24
subject: <b>Regarding Verin &amp; Alanna</b>
body:
They linked after she bonded him, but I don't know if they were trying to shield him, or if what he felt was the attempt at Compulsion through the bond.  They never said which Verin was helping with, and Alanna was almost certainly leading.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


created: 2005-09-05 21:21:11
subject: <b>Like the theory</b>
body:
loved that you spamed you own post.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sister to Nossy<br />Shot swapper with a_fan <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br />Bonded to Phil Reborn and Sidious<br />&quot;Mommies are like wizards&quot; ~ CVH <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br />The fact that I don't agree with you in no way means I didn't understand you.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-12-01 05:32:42
subject: <b>an annoying thought. . .</b>
body:
that just won't go away is actually 3 things: She lied in TGH (we know from M's reaction), she used compulsion, and she was going to kill Cadsuane. either she is an extreme wild card- on her own (but why? there are many others who are concerned with Rand's welfare) or she is DF or Black, I'm not sure either, but I won't be surprised if it takes that turn...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br />Resist anyway <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/borg.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-12-26 09:07:40
subject: <b>New Thoughts?</b>
body:
I agree....Verin is a wildcard, too. I think it is safe to say that she is not what she appears. I have seen theories regarding her identity as the last dreamer herself, coiriane nedeel(sp.?) Maybe, but the time frame seems wrong. Is it possible she knows the secret of the oath rod? She has replaced, retaken her own oaths? Consider the black hunters in the white tower use of the Oath Rod. What else could Therava have but a ter'angreal, a binding rod? Perhaps the Oath Rod is not the only one one. Verin seems to not regret using compulsion, though oath swearing black ajah can only be a mixed blessing. She has to have some good suspicions some of those sisters are black. Why else risk doing what is forbidden? How about Far Madding, &quot;you may call me Edesina&quot;, she well understands the difference between truth and what people believe, much to her advantage. Dark, no, but certainly seeking balance.


created: 2006-03-27 19:10:56
subject: <b>A possible reason...</b>
body:
(This post is to possibly answer a few people's questions over what Verin's true motives are)<br /><br />If this theory is true and Verin has only been using her influence and talents to deal with Rand without forcing him into anything, it could be for the reason of his ta'veren nature and how it might affect others.  By my understanding of the series, ta'veren guides the Pattern and vice-versa to meet out corrections and fulfillments of the world and time itself in an effort for the Wheel of Time to keep rolling.  Any interference of ta'veren and by extension the Pattern results in very wild changes by chance and circumstance so that everything is righted again.  Eladia's attempt to capture and control Rand resulted in Aes Sedai for the first time in the White Tower's history of swearing fealty to a man.  This happened because of direct interference to a ta'veren's purpose in the Pattern.  This is shown in another example in Third Age history by looking at Bonewhin and Hawkwing.  She too tried to control a ta'veren and in the end was left deposed, stilled and suffered as scullion for the rest of her life and the Red Ajah disgraced and humilated for centuries.  All because she forced her will on the Pattern's corrective tool and got tooled herself.<br /><br />Verin must understand the necessity of letting ta'veren have the &quot;freedom&quot; to do the Pattern's work.  By only letting Aes Sedai have at best an arm's length on the Dragon Reborn's doings and not letting them take full control can the White Tower be able to stand without too much injury to itself.  In this way, once Rand's purpose as the Dragon Reborn is completed, the White Tower will still stand long after Rand's prophesized death.<br /><br />The only possible flaw in my argument that *I* see is that Verin did go along with Alanna's plan to bond Rand against his will.  One answer I came up in regards to that is Verin's own reasons to work with Alanna may not necessarily coincide with the same reasons Alanna gave to Rand as to why she bonded Rand.  If Verin convinced herself that Rand as a Warder would increase the chances of his survival until after the Last Battle while keeping White Tower involvement to a minimum, that might be why she allowed Alanna's scheme.


created: 2008-04-27 13:31:42
subject: <b>Tamra's searchers</b>
body:
Submitted by Youker on 5/11/2005 1:12:33 AM<br />After reading New Spring, I assumed that all of Tamra's searchers were killed by the Black Ajah after Tamra was questioned and murdered. I think that's a solid point against Verin having been part of Tamra's inner circle.<br /><br /><br />maybe they are all dead or they left some alive and watched the watchers just to watch their progress, let them do all the work and step in at the right time.


created: 2008-05-07 18:25:32
subject: <b>Verin</b>
body:
My guess is that Verin has had acsess/broken into the Thirtinth Depositoty in the WTL, read up on Bonewhin's inteference with Hawkwing and deduced (correctly) that intefering with Ta*veren can have disasterous consequences. <br /><br />She also may have learned of the Dragons Rebirth about the same time that Siuan and Moraine did, and set out on her own scheme to help him, much like those other two. Tamara obviously did not set that task for them, they decided to do what the did on their own.


created: 2005-05-11 06:11:21
subject: <b>this is so utterly ridiculous</b>
body:
yes I know its a humorous theory<br /><br />but its a pretty poor excuse for one<br /><br />but hey, I didnt know they had a cow! I learnt something today! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">i have severed all my former allegiances to The Forsaken Who Shall Not Be Named Any More Because She Was Dumb Enough To Get Captured (TFWSNBNAMBSWDETGC).<br /><br />sigh. now i must find a new forsaken to root for.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-11 06:17:56
subject: <b>Wow... My first theory...</b>
body:
Silly as it is... <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perplexed.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smackhead.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /> LLT <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-11 09:51:52
subject: <b>Bah</b>
body:
The cow was obviously eaten by Narg <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />


created: 2005-05-11 10:16:20
subject: <b>Nah...</b>
body:
Then Rand would have mentioned it later; He was very fond of the Cow <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" />. But... believe whatever you want <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perplexed.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smackhead.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /> LLT <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-11 15:41:11
subject: <b>*shakes head*</b>
body:
*sigh*<br /><br />*tut*<br /><br />*sigh*<br /><br />*shake head*<br /><br />*tut*<br /><br />why?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">idealism not pragmatism</font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-11 17:30:45
subject: <b>Why what?</b>
body:
Go somewhere else complain!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perplexed.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smackhead.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /> LLT <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-11 17:42:12
subject: <b>you know i'm not complaining</b>
body:
i'm just gob-smacked and left bereft of words<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">idealism not pragmatism</font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-13 14:28:00
subject: <b>??????</b>
body:
Huh?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;What do you mean, why's it got to be built?&quot; he said. &quot;It's a bypass. You've got to build bypasses.&quot; - Mr Prosser, head builder</font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-23 02:50:55
subject: <b>wow.</b>
body:
Its the dumbest theory I'v heard, but you did do your homework.... so good luck with that......<br /><br />Unfortunatly I believe its implide that the trollics eat the cows and all the other animals....<br /><br />Could put a damper on the last battle.....<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Journey to the Tiger Sea,<br />Where legends die and stories be,<br />Where royalty rise and fall,<br />And Wotmania rules them all.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-08-22 20:02:40
subject: <b>Bravo, bravo</b>
body:
well, that was it, actually<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>It's not apples and oranges, but no one paying attention could compare these apples without noticing: <br />(a) one is 12 times bigger and <br />(b) both of them are rutabagas.</i></font><p></p>


created: 2005-09-09 00:31:58
subject: <b><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /></b>
body:
good stuff<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sister to Nossy<br />Shot swapper with a_fan <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br />Bonded to Phil Reborn and Sidious<br />&quot;Mommies are like wizards&quot; ~ CVH <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br />The fact that I don't agree with you in no way means I didn't understand you.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-09-17 21:42:34
subject: <b>WOW!!!!!!!!!!!!</b>
body:
I think you really nailed this one<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" />Screaming_Defiance<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" />I demand the return of Hurin<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />I love these smiley's<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/clap.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banghead.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shakefist.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-11-21 23:00:24
subject: <b>hilarious</b>
body:
Funniest thing I've read all week (and that's a WOT week with 10 days).  It even had elements of truth in it.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">COT is the worst Wheel of Time book.  I give it a 9.5 out of 10.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-11-26 10:23:13
subject: <b>Definitely!</b>
body:
You totally got it!  It explains everything<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">My mother always told me the best way to learn to deal with a man was to learn to ride a mule. She said they have about equal brains most of the time.Sometimes the mule is smarter.<br />     -Egwene al'Vere<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lan.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2006-01-01 16:28:42
subject: <b>hehe</b>
body:
lol, never would have thought of that one. i guess that would mean that rand can't really hear LTT in his head, i guess he's just going crazy. hehe<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">-Sabin<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2006-05-18 21:50:26
subject: <b>Of course!</b>
body:
Why didn't I see it sooner?!!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Masria Sedai of the Brown Ajah<br />The Zaftig Cat Girl<br /><br />http://serpentinepoet.proboards107.com/index.cgi</font><p></p>


created: 2007-03-17 20:28:19
subject: <b>yep</b>
body:
but the real question is, will the taint on sadin give it mad cow disease before the last battle!<br /><br />Wait, mabey thats whats causing the disease!  The DO's taint!  Cows can channel!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Give a man a fish and he'll eat for a day<br />Teach a man to fish and he'll ask you to buy him a fishing pole<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" />He Who Comes With The Pizza<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />proud basher of whitecloaks<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br />and <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" />the first Aiel gleeman<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2007-10-30 12:45:53
subject: <b>*still trying to close his mouth..*</b>
body:
ya my jaw dropped further and further...<br /><br />If Narg ate the cow, then he doomed the word...the thought of Lews therin talking to a cow is kinda funny though....<br />&quot;my hands why cant i move my hands?&quot; &quot;MOOOO&quot; but ya very very funny


created: 2005-05-11 06:17:08
subject: <b>I'm first <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /></b>
body:
Nice theory <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perplexed.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smackhead.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /> LLT <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-11 09:50:03
subject: <b>Kudos..</b>
body:
you did a really good job! Everything fits together perfectly and it shed some light on all the plots surrounding the Cleansing and the orders to kill Rand.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>I enjoyed Crossroads of Twilight!<br />If you feel the same way, join the 'CoT Appreciation Signature Club'</i><br /><br /><b>New Spring</b>:<br /><br /><b>Elaida</b>: Good luck on your test. DON'T MESS UP!!! DON'T GET NERVOUS!!!<br /><br /><b>Moiraine</b>: I made it.<br /><br /><b>Elaida</b>: Sh*t.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-11 11:41:18
subject: <b>Spectacular!</b>
body:
This is excellent.  I don't care if it isn't a &quot;real&quot; theory, I'd rather see an excellently supported and well-reasoned and well-written non-theory than another lame, who-killed-Asmodean-and-Ispan effort.<br />The one thing about your chronology that may be slightly off is the fact that Moridin may have given the DF Asha'man orders before the coffee hour.  There is no reason to suppose he hadn't laid his own plans before giving his most dangerous and least trustworthy followers new information.  That aside, it doesn't affect the big picture or the accurracy of your summation in the least.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-11 12:41:01
subject: <b>Very, very good for the most part.</b>
body:
Just a couple points:<br /><br />1) I don't think Osan'gar was taking advantage of the Fab Four's attack to take a potshot at Rand.  Rand caught him conferring with Gedwyn and Rochaid and he panicked.  He was probably afraid that Rand was about to vaporize all three of them and decided to get the first shot off.  The snarl of hatred was just him finally allowing his natural attitude toward Rand to show itself.<br /><br />2) Don't discount the possibility that Taim was Luc/Isam's mystery employer.  That whole scene had an air (to me) of Junior playing with one of Daddy's toys and not wanting Daddy to find out about it.  And if it was Osan'gar, how will we ever know for sure now that he's toast?


created: 2005-05-11 14:54:02
subject: <b>Nice</b>
body:
I liked the timeline; it 'shoots down' some ricuculus points that some people like to bring up, that have no factual basis whatsoever. It seems like a good piece, even though it isn't actually a theory.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;What do you mean, why's it got to be built?&quot; he said. &quot;It's a bypass. You've got to build bypasses.&quot; - Mr Prosser, head builder</font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-11 16:45:41
subject: <b>Thanks ...</b>
body:
to everyone above for the kind words.  I agree with Cannoli and Demosthenes that what I posted was not really a theory (or perhaps only in a very loose sense of the word).  It was more an analysis.  But, since there's no &quot;Analysis Post&quot;, and this issue isn't covered in the wotmania FAQ, the Theory Post was the best place to post it, I felt.<br /><br />To Cannoli ...<br /><br />I agree - Moridin may have given the DF Asha'man orders before the Coffee Hour.  However, I do think it was after he determined (or was told by Cyndane) that Rand intended to use the Choedan Kal to cleanse saidin, because he wanted the Asha'man to bring him Rand's possessions (which likely included Choedan Kal access keys).  The question I have is, when exactly did Moridin and/or Cyndane figure out that Rand intened to use the Choedan Kal to cleanse saidin?  Cyndane knew Rand had the CK access keys long before the first meeting at which Rand's intention was discussed, yet it's clear she didn't mention it then (perhaps she didn't attend, or didn't think about it until later).  Cyndane also mentioned in the Coffee Hour that Rand knew a woman strong enough to use the female CK.  So, it seems she knew that, not only did Rand intend to use the CK to cleanse saidin, but that he also intended to have Nynaeve help him.  But, Rand asked Nynaeve to help him the same day as the Coffee Hour (it was two chapters before, in WH).  So, either the Shadow's spies overheard Rand and Nynaeve's conversation (the room may not have been warded) and reported it to Moridin immediately thereafter, who then arranged the Coffee Hour meeting a few hours later.  Or, Moridin and/or Cyndane deduced Rand's plan on their own, before he met with Nynaeve.  If the former, then Moridin certainly gave the Asha'man orders after the Coffee Hour - there wouldn't have been time before.  If the latter, then he may have ordered the Asha'man prior to calling the meeting.  But, as you say, it doesn't really alter the analysis significantly if that was the case.<br /><br />To Youker ...<br /><br />So, you don't think Osan'gar was in Cairhien to take advantage of the attack to try to kill Rand, but just took a shot (a very lethal looking shot, I might add) at him to protect himself after he was discovered?  If that's true, they why did Osan'gar confer with Gedwyn &amp; Rochaid in the first place, rather than watch events unfold from the shadows?  The fact that he got involved with the Asha'man at all is a good indication, to me at least, that he intended all along to try to kill Rand.  It would have been too risky for him to get involved without that intention, otherwise.  Plus, it was a great opportunity for him - if he succeeded he could have blamed it on the Asha'man and not been held responsible.  Plus, this ties in with why I think Osan'gar was Slayer's patron.  That is, Osan'gar tried to kill Rand once, in Cairhien, failed, and then tried to kill him again, in Far Madding, utilizing Slayer.  And failed again.<br /><br />Regarding Slayer's patron ... I think Taim and Demandred are both suspects, along with Osan'gar.  However, after the failed attack in Cairhien, Taim tasked the Asha'man (again) to kill Rand, as did Demandred.  So they were less in need of tasking someone else, in addition to the Asha'man, to attempt the deed.  Whereas Osan'gar was not in a position to task the Asha'man himself (they would never have followed orders from him, I think).  So, he had to enlist the aid of someone else - Slayer.  If I'm wrong, though, I think Taim is the next likely candidate (over Demandred).  He would have much more need to disguise his appearance than Demandred would.  But you're right - if it was Osan'gar, we may not ever know for sure now that he's dead.  Unless RJ just tells us in an interview, QotW, etc.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Rise and fall, turn the Wheel,<br />'cause all life is<br />Is really just a circle.&quot;<br /><br />-BHT&amp;tM</font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-11 21:36:35
subject: <b>They didn't have to have spied on Nynaeve &amp; Rand</b>
body:
They were from the same village, and though she dresses differently, she is closest to Emond's Field in spirit.  Moghedian had ample opportunity to observe and analyze her personality and surely knew about her loyalty to Rand and her strength.  She even tried persuading Nynaeve to leave Salidar using pro-Rand arguments.  Plus, others of the Forsaken, probably Mesaana might have been able to tell that Nynaeve was very strong.  Moridin knew enough about her to arrange for her to be shipped to the Seanchan back in tGH.  Also, your timing seems to be based on the assumption that Cyndane told Moridin immediately before they walked into the meeting.  <br />Try this chronology instead.<br />- Moridin learns of Rand's intention to cleanse the taint, calls the firt meeting in between the end of the Altaran campaign and the attack in the palace (Osen'gar was under Rand's eye the whole time on campaign).  Some discussion of his methods might involve his loss of control of Callandor.  They assume he can't do it, by decide not to let him try, since he could cause a disaster that would adversely affect them, lashing out with Callandor when he is trying something on a world-affecting scale.<br />- Moridin asks Cyndane and Moghedian, his direct underlings, what they might know about his power sources and allies, given that he is now running, and it is imperative that they get ahead of him.  He learns about the Choedan Kal and Nynaeve.<br />- He calls for the Forsaken to meet, and they begin straggling in, with Moghedian observing secretly to make sure they don't know anything or have no treachery in mind.<br />- He gives orders to the DF Asha'man and sets in motion the plans to search Rand's top lieutenants.  <br />- He rushes off to the meeting with Cyndane, and comes in to hear the discussion.<br />Your chronology gives no accounting of Moridin's actions between the two meetings, so I think my scenario is compatible.  Not that you are necessarily wrong, it is just that your chronology is so well reasoned that possibly faulty assumptions HAVE to explained away, lest it all be discredited.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-11 22:24:24
subject: <b>To Cannoli</b>
body:
I didn't assume Cyndane told Moridin about the CK just before walking into the meeting.  On the contrary, I assume Moridin called the meeting because of Cyndane's information.  I just don't think much time elapsed (say from a few hours, if spies were involved, to a couple of days, if not) between when Moridin learned of Cyndane's information and when he called the meeting, because of the urgency of the situation.  Assuming that's true, he still could have ordered the Asha'man prior to the actual meeting, as you suggested.<br /><br />Anyway ... I like your chronology speculation, especially about Moghedien's knowledge of Nynaeve (which I hadn't considered in my previous reply to your post).  I think you're probably right - the 3 of them discussed what they knew, Cyndane revealed Rand had the CK access keys, Moggy revealed that Rand knew a women strong enough to use the female one, and they deduced Rand's plan.  No need for spies, then, as you said.  In which case, the fact that the Coffee Hour was held on the same day Rand asked Nynaeve for her help was just coincidence, not a consequence thereof.<br /><br />Assuming this is true, Moridin still could have ordered the Asha'man before or after the Coffee Hour - either way fits in with your ideas, I think.<br /><br />FYI ... this issue seemed like a minor point in the whole analysis, so I didn't give it as much thought as some of the other items.  Nevertheless, I appreciate your comments - I welcome any insight others may have on any of the items, including the minor ones.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Rise and fall, turn the Wheel,<br />'cause all life is<br />Is really just a circle.&quot;<br /><br />-BHT&amp;tM</font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-12 01:43:12
subject: <b>I've rethought my first point.</b>
body:
You've convinced me that Osan'gar may have known about Gedwyn and Rochaid's plot ahead of time, but I still don't think Osan'gar intended to attack Rand personally, and I maintain that his being caught with Gedwyn and Rochaid was an accident and that he fired his volley out of panic and/or rage.  Rand had completely disappeared, and Gedwyn and Rochaid were convinced that he was dead.  The fact that they were just standing around in that room (rather than hunting for Rand) and openly discussing whether he was dead shows that they at least thought he had fled the palace.<br />Anyway, it's a very, very minor point, and I've already said that I agree with most of your theory.


created: 2005-05-13 14:25:36
subject: <b>Me too</b>
body:
I also believe that Osan'gar didn't intend to get caught, but Rand's ta'veren luck twisted chance, and he was seen.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;What do you mean, why's it got to be built?&quot; he said. &quot;It's a bypass. You've got to build bypasses.&quot; - Mr Prosser, head builder</font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-13 16:00:27
subject: <b>To Youker and Demosthenes</b>
body:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think what you both are suggesting is as follows:<br /><br />1. Osan'gar was in Cairhien to monitor, not participate, in the attack on Rand.<br /><br />2. After the initial attack on Rand's rooms (in which he did not participate), Osan'gar found Gedwyn &amp; Rochaid, and took the opportunity to try to find out what happened (was Rand dead?  Did he flee the palace?  etc.).<br /><br />3. Upon seeing Rand, Osan'gar fired a quick shot in the heat of the moment, not so much to kill Rand (although his hatred of Rand certainly contributed to his actions), but more to give him time to flee the scene before being burnt to a cinder.<br /><br />Is that accurate?<br /><br />If so, I think you may be right.  I went back an re-read the scene where Dashiva, Gedwyn, &amp; Rochaid meet up, and it says that Dashiva was &quot;looking about, licking his lips uncertainly&quot;.  This doesn't sound like someone actively looking about for Rand to kill him.  On the contrary, it sounds like someone actively looking about for Rand to keep from being killed.<br /><br />Your scenario is more in line with Osan'gar's personality, I think.  He doesn't strike me as someone brave enough to actively seek out Rand to try to kill him, even during the hubbub in the palace at the time, nor is he brave enough to defy Moridin's orders not to kill Rand, at least not directly (both of which I was suggesting).  It would have been too risky - if he deliberately killed Rand, he couldn't be certain that Moridin wouldn't find out from one of the Asha'man.<br /><br />Nothing Osan'gar said during the Coffee Hour, nor his thoughts during the cleansing, contradict this idea, as far as I can tell.<br /><br />And, it doesn't preclude Osan'gar from being Slayer's patron, either.  The scenario could simply have been that, after the Coffee Hour, Osan'gar decided to try to have Rand killed, not because he failed himself the first time in Cairhien, but rather in order to keep from having to participate in a potential battle during the cleansing itself (which is exactly what ended up happening).  It makes sense, I think.<br /><br />It all seems to fit together nicely, and is more consistant with Osan'gar's personality that what I proposed.  I'm convinced.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Rise and fall, turn the Wheel,<br />'cause all life is<br />Is really just a circle.&quot;<br /><br />-BHT&amp;tM</font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-13 19:25:42
subject: <b>Very good summary. I think Moridin has been clever.</b>
body:
Very clever in how he&#8217;s playing both sides of the board as Taim. He has been careful to maintain his Taim persona <b>completely</b> separate to his known identity. Not even the other Forsaken know who he is and it&#8217;s important to Moridin that they don&#8217;t find out. He doesn&#8217;t want them interfering &#8211; they&#8217;ve tried to twisted his plans often enough in the past to their advantage and caused the Shadow problems. This is one area he wants them well away from. He may even &#8216;let&#8217; Demandred apparently give orders to Taim &#8211; orders he told Demandred to give in the first place. It&#8217;s a good way to make sure Demandred is doing what he&#8217;s supposed to. <br /><br />And of course, he&#8217;s happy to carry the orders out, after all they were his in the first place.<br /><br />One thing your theory doesn&#8217;t explain is how surprised Taim was that Rand chose Dashiva as one of his assistants. He knew who Dashiva was; hence his surprise. He wasn&#8217;t pleased either, because at that time was still trying to get close to Rand himself. He didn&#8217;t trust Dashiva off by himself knowing his tendency to try his own plans and bungle things. Later, as Moridin, he gave orders to Dashiva to report what Rand does and hoped that Dashiva&#8217;s fear of him kept him in line.<br /><br />Now for the orders. Taim&#8217;s first order to the Black Ashaman was to kill Rand. This would fit in with the original plan (as divulged by the BA Joiya Byir) to have Taim set himself up as the Dragon Reborn &#8211; a dark Dragon Reborn. But they blew it. As I said above, Moridin may have given the order to Demandred and Demandred to Taim (Moridin in disguise, and amused to see Demandred happy to pass this order on). Or not. <br /><br />Next Demandred tells them to kill Rand. He&#8217;s always wanted Rand dead. He&#8217;s telling them to try again, and it&#8217;s not Moridin&#8217;s instruction. Moridin may well have given up on the replace Rand with Taim idea. He doesn&#8217;t want Moridin to find out that he&#8217;s giving orders independently again. Hence the Black Ashaman had better not bungle it this time. Demandred doesn&#8217;t want to be found out. If Rand was killed, Demandred would be prepared to cop the flak, but he&#8217;s certainly not going to cop it for little gain. <br /><br />Finally, Moridin finds out that Rand has the access keys and has had them for some time. And is pretty annoyed at Lanfear for holding that back. This is one order only Moridin can give. Moridin can&#8217;t reveal top secret through his Taim alias. Also, he wants those access keys. If Moridin has them, no one&#8217;s going to try and get them. If his Taim alias had them, others would try to take them &#8211; Ashaman, Forsaken, you name it. Moridin would have to reveal he is also Taim, and he certainly doesn&#8217;t want to do that yet. He can get plenty more mileage out of his Taim identity. He doesn&#8217;t care if Rand lives or dies. He was keen for Rand to die earlier when he wanted his Taim alias to replace Rand as the Dragon Reborn. But now what he wants are the access keys, so he tells the Black Ashaman to bring him all Rand&#8217;s possessions. That&#8217;s a specific order, but not one that reveals much info to them.<br /><br />My apologies for the long reply<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> Linda Sedai <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Proud member of the Embroiderer's Guild of the White Tower<br /><br /><b><font color="red">FAQ admin</font></b> </font>'cos the FAQ is where it's at.<br /><br /><b>Currently working on:</b> my 70th FAQ<p><a href="http://13depository.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">The thirteenth depository : A Wheel of Time blog</a></p><p></p>


created: 2005-05-13 23:44:18
subject: <b>linda, I don't understand your reply</b>
body:
The theory says that Taim and Moridin are different people. But you are saying they are the same? Did I miss something?


created: 2005-05-13 23:49:49
subject: <b>Yes.</b>
body:
His theory dismisses the possiblity that they could be the same. I was showing that they could be the same.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> Linda Sedai <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Proud member of the Embroiderer's Guild of the White Tower<br /><br /><b><font color="red">FAQ admin</font></b> </font>'cos the FAQ is where it's at.<br /><br /><b>Currently working on:</b> my 70th FAQ<p><a href="http://13depository.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">The thirteenth depository : A Wheel of Time blog</a></p><p></p>


created: 2005-05-16 17:16:22
subject: <b>To Linda</b>
body:
Regarding Taim's reaction to Rand choosing Dashiva  &#8230;<br /><br />I agree that Moridin, as Taim, would have been surprised that Rand chose Dashiva.  But non-Moridin Taim could also have been surprised, simply because Rand chose a non-descript, daydreaming, middle-aged man rather than someone he thought a more worthy candidate (for example, one of his cronies &#8211; Torval, Kisman, Gedwyn, or Rochaid, all of whom were present).  Recall that Rand was also surprised by his own choice (according to Perrin), and that certainly wasn't because of any special knowledge he had about Dashiva's identity.  So, I don't think that Taim's surprise at Rand's choice is any indication, one way or the other, of his own identity.<br /><br />However, I think that Taim's irritation at Rand's choice is a strong indication that he is not Moridin.  Because, Taim tried to talk Rand into choosing Torval or Rochaid instead.  If Moridin is Taim, why would he consider Torval or Rochaid a better choice than Dashiva?  Dashiva was the perfect choice, from the Shadow's perspective (Taim himself was no longer an option &#8211; he'd been head of the Black Tower for &gt;2 months by this time; any hope he had of being Rand's &quot;lesser partner&quot;, as he put it when accepting Rand's amnesty in LoC, was long gone).  Whereas Taim's reaction makes perfect sense if he is not Moridin.  Taim wanted Rand to choose someone loyal to him, for obvious reasons.  And, Dashiva wasn't.<br /><br />Regarding Taim's first order to the DF Asha'man &#8230;<br /><br />Taim ordered the Asha'man to kill Rand.  But, up until the Coffee Hour, Moridin's thoughts and actions indicated that he wanted Rand alive.  He helped Rand against Sammael in Shadar Logoth.  And, in his PoV in TPoD prologue, he thought to himself &quot;there was no need for destruction yet&quot; in reference to the Fisher piece on his sha'rah board (which, of course, represented Rand).  Even after the Coffee Hour, he still preferred that Rand be killed only if necessary.  This discrepancy between agendas is another strong indication, IMO, that Moridin is not Taim.<br /><br />Regarding Moridin's order to the DF Asha'man &#8230;<br /><br />I agree that Moridin gave the order in response to finding out about the access keys.  And, I agree that Moridin was better served issuing the order directly, rather than through Taim, even if he is Taim.   But, not for the reason you suggested (if he acquired the access keys as Taim, he could have avoided the issues you raised simply by telling the Forsaken and Asha'man that Taim gave them to him).  Rather, because the Asha'man would be less likely to disobey an order from a Chosen (and keep Rand's possessions for themselves) than they would be to disobey an order from Taim. <br /><br />But, I do think Moridin's order to the Asha'man indicate that he is not Taim.  Because, Taim told the Asha'man, in no uncertain terms, to kill Rand.  Whereas Moridin didn't care if they killed Rand, he only cared about getting Rand's possessions.  If Moridin is Taim, he'd have told the Asha'man something like &quot;after you kill Rand, bring his possessions to me&quot;, to avoid any discrepancy between the two sets of orders.  I just don't find it plausible that, after Moridin found out about the access keys, he deemed killing Rand LESS urgent.<br /><br />Regarding Taim's agenda &#8230;<br /><br />The information Joiya divulged is highly suspect &#8211; unlike Amico she was not stilled when she was captured in Tear, and therefore still bound by the oaths she took on the Oath Rod when becoming Black Ajah, one of which was almost certainly not to reveal information about BA plots.  Therefore, I believe she was lying.  <br /><br />Regardless, though, it seems that Taim's agenda since Rand inserted him as head of the Black Tower, up until he ordered the Asha'man to kill Rand, was to drive a wedge between Rand and the Aes Sedai, create a base of Asha'man loyal to him and not Rand, and in general hinder Rand's efforts wherever he could (such as during the Seanchan campaign in TPoD).  Not to replace Rand as the Dragon Reborn &#8211; the opportunity for that scenario (if it ever existed) had long since passed.  None of these things suggest to me that Taim is anyone other than a DF following orders.  <br /><br />As to why he ordered the Asha'man to kill Rand, I think it's simply because he finally tired of playing second fiddle to someone he despises.  He's got a base of Asha'man loyal to him, so he's in a strong position to carve out his own power base now, either with or without the support of his superiors.  But, I think Logain and his allies will thwart him, very soon.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Rise and fall, turn the Wheel,<br />'cause all life is<br />Is really just a circle.&quot;<br /><br />-BHT&amp;tM</font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-17 20:09:15
subject: <b>My (long) reply</b>
body:
<b>Regarding Taim's reaction to Rand choosing Dashiva &#8230;<br /><br />I agree that Moridin, as Taim, would have been surprised that Rand chose Dashiva. But non-Moridin Taim could also have been surprised, simply because Rand chose a non-descript, daydreaming, middle-aged man rather than someone he thought a more worthy candidate (for example, one of his cronies &#8211; Torval, Kisman, Gedwyn, or Rochaid, all of whom were present). Recall that Rand was also surprised by his own choice (according to Perrin), and that certainly wasn't because of any special knowledge he had about Dashiva's identity. So, I don't think that Taim's surprise at Rand's choice is any indication, one way or the other, of his own identity.</b><br /><br />Each of these reactions and events buy themselves prove nothing either way.  Though Taim&#8217;s slip-ups revealing AOL terminology and knowledge are pretty major. On the whole, though Moridin has played Taim very well, as one would expect.<br /><br /><b>However, I think that Taim's irritation at Rand's choice is a strong indication that he is not Moridin. Because, Taim tried to talk Rand into choosing Torval or Rochaid instead. If Moridin is Taim, why would he consider Torval or Rochaid a better choice than Dashiva? Dashiva was the perfect choice, from the Shadow's perspective (Taim himself was no longer an option &#8211; he'd been head of the Black Tower for &gt;2 months by this time; any hope he had of being Rand's &quot;lesser partner&quot;, as he put it when accepting Rand's amnesty in LoC, was long gone). Whereas Taim's reaction makes perfect sense if he is not Moridin. Taim wanted Rand to choose someone loyal to him, for obvious reasons. And, Dashiva wasn't.</b><br /><br />Why would Moridin/Taim think Rochaid, et al a better choice? Because they are far more likely to follow orders.  As Graendal said, Dashiva is blind. He&#8217;s also arrogant. And has bungled plans by working for himself.<br /><br />Plus Moridin/Taim probably already had some plans in mind for Dashiva, plans that Rand just booted out the window&#8230;<br /><br /><b>Regarding Taim's first order to the DF Asha'man &#8230;<br /><br />Taim ordered the Asha'man to kill Rand. But, up until the Coffee Hour, Moridin's thoughts and actions indicated that he wanted Rand alive. He helped Rand against Sammael in Shadar Logoth. And, in his PoV in TPoD prologue, he thought to himself &quot;there was no need for destruction yet&quot; in reference to the Fisher piece on his sha'rah board (which, of course, represented Rand). Even after the Coffee Hour, he still preferred that Rand be killed only if necessary. This discrepancy between agendas is another strong indication, IMO, that Moridin is not Taim.</b> <br /><br />Moridin has been very careful to keep his identities separate.  The other Forsaken must not suspect what&#8217;s going on.<br /><br />As Moridin himself said, he&#8217;s seen truth change several times in one day and had changed it himself&#8230;<br /><br />Earlier in POD yes, he thought there was no need for destruction <i>yet</i>. Then Rand goes after the Seanchan (a big plot of Moridin&#8217;s that Rand messed up) and, more importantly, tells Dashiva he&#8217;s thinking of cleansing saidin&#8230; That might change Moridin&#8217;s mind, don&#8217;t you think? Kill Rand so he can&#8217;t figure out a way to cleanse saidin. And replace him as the Dragon for theological reasons (see below).<br /><br />He doesn&#8217;t know at this stage that Rand not only largely worked out how it could be done but <i>had the means to do it</i>. He also thought he was well enough set up at the BT to try and replace Rand as the Dragon Reborn.  He knows the Pattern needs a Dragon. And that the Dragon&#8217;s death ends the Age. If the Age ends without any battle between the DO and the Dragon, then the DO has to wait and try again.  What is Moridin/Taim trying here? Well, we know that sometimes the Creator&#8217;s champion has been turned to the Shadow. This plan would be the Shadow&#8217;s champion pretending to be turning to the Light and pretending to be the Creator&#8217;s champion. Taim replacing Rand as the Dragon Reborn <b>works best</b> if Taim is Moridin, since Moridin is the Dark One&#8217;s champion. Quite a nifty plot really, and gets around the problem of the Pattern (or Wheel) trying to counteract the Shadow&#8217;s plans. The Shadow is trying to undermine the Light and also keep the Age going until the DO breaks free.<br /><br />The only thing is that Taim replacing Rand would be secret and ditto Taim actually being Moridin. Otherwise the world would finally unite against him.  The Pattern would &#8216;know&#8217; though. There would be a Dragon and the Shadow&#8217;s Champion would be working for the Light (in appearance only). Would the Pattern be able to do anything? Would the Pattern want to do anything? Presumably the DO would have some idea. Anyway, that&#8217;s what I think is what the DO and Ishy were trying to achieve. Only the underlings failed to kill Rand. The opportunity appears lost.<br /><br />Once Moridin knew Rand had the access keys, he wants them more than anything.  They&#8217;re more important than whether Rand lives or dies. He&#8217;s already got plans in train if Rand dies as well as ones for while he&#8217;s alive. I think there are more possibilities if Rand is alive. If Rand dies, the Age ends. (Have you read my eschatology FAQ? A lot of this is there, except the stuff about Taim being Moridin and the significance of the plan to replace Rand with Taim, because that&#8217;s my personal theory and I try to keep the two separate.)<br /><br />But the access keys are a wild card Moridin can&#8217;t risk. The possibility of any of the other Forsaken getting them alone&#8230;never mind any other channeller.<br /><br /><b>Regarding Moridin's order to the DF Asha'man &#8230;<br /><br />I agree that Moridin gave the order in response to finding out about the access keys. And, I agree that Moridin was better served issuing the order directly, rather than through Taim, even if he is Taim. But, not for the reason you suggested (if he acquired the access keys as Taim, he could have avoided the issues you raised simply by telling the Forsaken and Asha'man that Taim gave them to him). Rather, because the Asha'man would be less likely to disobey an order from a Chosen (and keep Rand's possessions for themselves) than they would be to disobey an order from Taim. </b><br /><br />Except, knowing they&#8217;re getting the stuff for Taim, they could have held stuff back before Taim tells them this. Are they going to confess after that? What if one if the access key? Better for Moridin not to risk it.<br /><br /><b>But, I do think Moridin's order to the Asha'man indicate that he is not Taim. Because, Taim told the Asha'man, in no uncertain terms, to kill Rand. Whereas Moridin didn't care if they killed Rand, he only cared about getting Rand's possessions. If Moridin is Taim, he'd have told the Asha'man something like &quot;after you kill Rand, bring his possessions to me&quot;, to avoid any discrepancy between the two sets of orders. I just don't find it plausible that, after Moridin found out about the access keys, he deemed killing Rand LESS urgent.</b><br /><br />It&#8217;s in the theology (see FAQ and above). If Rand dies, the Age ends. IF the DO isn&#8217;t free and doesn&#8217;t battle Rand he has to wait for another opportunity in another Age. However, it might work if they have a Dragon Reborn of their own ready to Rand. It is very risky, though, and they may have backed off on the idea.<br /><br />So much of Moridin&#8217;s plans has to do with theology, which one would expect, given his background. Most readers don&#8217;t consider this, though.<br /><br /><b>Regarding Taim's agenda &#8230;<br /><br />The information Joiya divulged is highly suspect &#8211; unlike Amico she was not stilled when she was captured in Tear, and therefore still bound by the oaths she took on the Oath Rod when becoming Black Ajah, one of which was almost certainly not to reveal information about BA plots. Therefore, I believe she was lying. </b><br /><br />But the BA can reveal old plots as was seen in TPOD with Ispan. Taim had been captured, and was on his way to the Tower to be gentled, so that was the end of that plan. Taim escaped, but did Joiya know that? If she believes it&#8217;s an old plot she can reveal it. Just as Ispan did.<br /><br /><b>Regardless, though, it seems that Taim's agenda since Rand inserted him as head of the Black Tower, up until he ordered the Asha'man to kill Rand, was to drive a wedge between Rand and the Aes Sedai, create a base of Asha'man loyal to him and not Rand, and in general hinder Rand's efforts wherever he could (such as during the Seanchan campaign in TPoD). Not to replace Rand as the Dragon Reborn &#8211; the opportunity for that scenario (if it ever existed) had long since passed. None of these things suggest to me that Taim is anyone other than a DF following orders. </b><br /><br />I think that&#8217;s a good start, though. Train up some Dreadlords. I think the plan was delayed while they tried to find out more of Rand&#8217;s plans and also trained some underlings. It would make their job easier.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> Linda Sedai <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Proud member of the Embroiderer's Guild of the White Tower<br /><br /><b><font color="red">FAQ admin</font></b> </font>'cos the FAQ is where it's at.<br /><br /><b>Currently working on:</b> my 70th FAQ<p><a href="http://13depository.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">The thirteenth depository : A Wheel of Time blog</a></p><p></p>


created: 2005-05-18 12:57:26
subject: <b>To Linda</b>
body:
Yes, I have read your eschatology FAQ (it is excellent, btw).  And, from your comments in your last reply, in context with that FAQ, I understand much better now why you think Moridin is Taim.<br /><br />Some comments ...<br /><br />Let's assume you are correct that, if the current Age ends (with Rand's premature death, before the DO is free) without any battle between the DO and the Dragon, then the DO has to wait for a new Age to try again to break free.  I can see Moridin having some contingency plans in place if Rand were to die prematurely - after all, as RJ said, there are degrees of victory for the Shadow, even if the DO is not freed, and Moridin would still be motivated to work towards those ends.  But, to deliberately try to kill Rand makes little sense - Moridin could not be sure the Pattern would accept him as a replacement Dragon, thereby extending the current age and keeping open the possibility that the DO could be freed.  We (and presumably, Moridin) know that once Rand proclaimed himself Dragon, the Pattern would not accept a false Dragon (from Moiraine's comments, and Taim's capture).  If follows that Moridin would certainly consider it possible/probable that the Pattern would not accept a false Dragon if Rand were killed after proclaiming himself Dragon, either.<br /><br />IMO, the plan you suggest, given your conclusions about WoT eschatology, is too risky, especially while there is still a reasonable chance for the DO to break free.  Even though killing Rand would prevent the cleansing - that is of less importance to the DO than breaking free, certainly.<br /><br />I understand your arguments for Moridin=Taim, many of which I agree with (such as, it explans Taim revealing AoL knowledge and terminology).  And, you offered some plausible explanations for some of the issues I raised in my last reply.  But, I don't think your arguments explain satisfactorily the apparent discrepancy between Taim's orders and Moridin's orders.  As I said, it just doesn't seem plausible that Moridin would deem killing Rand less urgent after finding out about the access keys.  His orders to the other Forsaken at the Coffee Hour certainly contradict this idea.  <br /><br />IMO, if RJ really had in mind for Moridin to be Taim, he'd have written the scene in which Kisman thinks about the 3 separate orders differently.  But, I could be wrong.<br /><br />Anyway, it's an interesting discussion, and I appreciate you taking the time to offer up your thoughts.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Rise and fall, turn the Wheel,<br />'cause all life is<br />Is really just a circle.&quot;<br /><br />-BHT&amp;tM</font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-19 05:59:25
subject: <b>Nicely done!</b>
body:
Sorry to be so late with a reply, but I haven't had much time of late. Anyway....<br /><br />I will agree that your scenarios concur very neatly with events as they have unfolded. Very well researched and laid out as well. My congratulations to you!<br /><br />As for Linda's claims of Taim=Moridin, I had never bought into that theory before, but what she has laid out has swayed me and got me thinking more and more about the possibility she's right. Several things do come immediately to mind under such an idea:<br /><br />For one, Rand's strong reaction to Taim and wanting to kill him almost from the very start. This reflects very well with his strong desire/need, (whatever you want to call it), to kill Ishy and the DO, which Rand considers to be one and the same early in the story. Yes, he does show some of this attitude towards the asha'man, but never to this high of a degree. (Even to Dashiva, whom he's around quite often.)<br /><br />Taim's escape has always been suspect given the amount of security we witness surrounding Logain in tEotW, too. It certainly seems likely that Taim would have been given close to the same amount of guards and shielding considering his strong ability with the OP. This would suggest that early planning went into sending enough BA be in his entourage to ensure his capture ended with a safe escape. (If it ever happened. Recall that it took an overly long time in comparison to the speed with which Logain was captured.) Certainly it's doubtful Liandrin was smart enough or bold enough to devise such a plan herself, and she was the one that told this plot to Joiya. (And we know she was at the DFS and thus working for Ishamael early on.) While many have thought her departure from the Amyrlin's party was to persue Moiraine and send the Draghkar, this has never sat well with me. RJ's answer to a QotW has told us that Shadowspawn follow directions from the Forsaken because they bear a mark from the DO. This would at least preclude her from ordering the Draghkar, although I suppose it's possible she might have shielded it, but this leads to the question of why. If one of the Forsaken ordered the Draghkar, they could/would have shielded it themselves, IMO. <br /><br />So, what else might Liandrin have been doing in the north? She might have been sent to give the order to free Taim after he was captured, or lend aid in preventing it from happening, exactly like Logain talks about later. (I really like the irony of this, since Logain was supposedly lying about the help he received.) This would explain where Liandrin's later knowledge/plan of such a scheme for replacing Rand originated. <br /><br />Another item that might be overlooked is Rand's reaction after his escape from the box at Dumai Wells. When Taim offers to Heal Rand, he thinks: <br />&quot;Lews Therin had begun ranting about killing as he always did when Taim appeared, rambling madly about the Forsaken and killing everybody, but Rand stopped listening, walled the man off to the buzzing of a fly. It was a trick he had learned inside the chest, when there was nothing to do but feel at the shield and listen to a voice in his head that was insane more often than not. <b>Yet even without Lews Therin, he did not want to be Healed by the man. He thought that if Taim ever touched him with the Power, however innocently, he would kill him.</b>&quot; LoC, Dumai Wells.<br /><br />Why such the strong aversion to being Healed by Taim? I mean, under the circumstances, he just delivered him from being taken by Sevanna or to the WT. Could it be a recollection of being Healed by Ishamael in the prologue to tEotW? (Great foreshadowing if this proves to be the case.) <br /><br />These are a few points among many that suggests the possibility of Taim=Moridin/Ishy, IMO.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-23 13:03:21
subject: <b>To LitN ...</b>
body:
Thanks, I appreciate the kind words.<br /><br />Regarding Moridin=Taim ...<br /><br />I agree that many of the arguments that were once used to suggest Demandred=Taim can be applied to Moridin=Taim (e.g. Taim's AoL knowledge and terminology, LTT's reaction to Taim, Taim having a seal, etc.).  And, Linda's theological arguments are very convincing.  I also like your comment about Rand not wanting to be healed by Taim.  RJ likes irony, and Rand's statement would certainly be ironic if Taim turns out to be Moridin, for the reason you suggested.  Good catch!  <br /><br />However, regarding your comments about Liandrin ... they make sense, I think, if Taim is just Taim (i.e. not Ishy), and Ishy intended to use him in some capacity similar to what Joiya revealed.  <br /><br />Is that what you meant?  You weren't suggesting that Ishy=Taim (before Ishy died), were you?  That seems impossible.  Taim was captured by AS in Saldaea at virtually the same moment that Rand defeated Ishy in Falme (on Nov21'998 ), according to what we've been told (i.e. Taim saw a vision of Rand battling Ishy in the sky, fell off his horse, was knocked unconscious, and then captured).  Suian described Taim's capture to Verin, as outlined above, in TDR-ch.12.  And, Cadsuane implied that she assisted in Taim's capture in ACoS-ch.19.  That alone indicates that Ishy and Taim are separate people, IMO.  Ishy could not have been battling Rand in Falme and fighting in Saldaea at the same time.  <br /><br />Also, Ishy visited Perrin's dreams in TAR (in TDR-ch.4) on Mar12'999 (i.e. after the Falme battle).  If Ishy=Taim, he would have been shielded at the time (Taim was not freed until late May or early June), and unable to access TAR and Perrin's dreams, I think.<br /><br />Also, Rand killed Ishy on May19'999, Joiya revealed the plot about Liandrin breaking Taim free on Jun4'999, and Suian received word of Taim's escape on Jun8'999.  And, Bashere told Rand on Sept21'999 that he'd been chasing Taim south for &quot;many weeks&quot;.  So it appears Taim was seen after Ishy died, making it impossible for Ishy=Taim.  But, it is not certain - Taim may have been freed prior to Ishy's death (even though we don't learn of it until after), and we don't know if Bashere ever actually saw Taim after he was freed, only that he was chasing him (IIRC).<br /><br />But, given all of the above, I think it's impossible for Ishy to have been Taim.<br /><br />I do think it is possible, however, for Moridin=Taim.  The 'gars were resurrected in early Oct'999.  Assuming Moridin was also resurrected about that time, it would allow enough time for Moridin to kill the real Taim and assume his identity (using a Mask of Mirrors disguise) prior to arriving in Caemlyn on Oct28'999 (note: ~5 weeks after Bashere showed up).<br /><br />If it weren't for the 3 separate orders Kisman received, I'd be much more willing to consider Moridin=Taim.  But in my opinion, by describing the 3 orders Kisman received, RJ was revealing to us that Taim is neither Demandred nor Moridin.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Rise and fall, turn the Wheel,<br />'cause all life is<br />Is really just a circle.&quot;<br /><br />-BHT&amp;tM</font><p></p>


