# w_comment

created: 2002-07-10 22:12:05
subject: <b>I like the idea...</b>
body:
Of Ogiers forming an army. I love Loial and he is an amazing fighter, think with 100 Ogiers you could beet most other armies IE Tearians


created: 2002-10-11 06:44:30
subject:
<b><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/loial.gif" border="0" />ogiers<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/loial.gif" border="0" /> in hand combat</b>

body:
I definitly ike the idee of OGIERS ('specially LOIAL)in combat.<br />An army of OGIERS would be a force to be reckoned with.<br />As seen from Loial, they can kick major trolloc and aiel ass! But in TG, they woudln't be much use:<br /><br />imagine an ogier vs. a channeller........<br /><br />it would be like:<br />dreadlord or forsaken or black ajah: <br />&quot;hey, there's a big, hairy, and strangly hasty Ogier coming for me with a large handle on is egually large Axe!<br /><br />Shall i rip the earth open under him, capture him in flows of air (wimp!), stop his heart beeting, skin him alive, or simply FRY  him.......&quot;<br /><br />I really don't think that, with all the Aes Sedai, Wilders, WIndfinders, Asha'man, Wise Women, Knitting Circle, Damane and so on and so forth there will be use for, or even ROOM for &quot;simple&quot; human or ogier armies. <br /><br />Just the commando's will fight Tarmon Gaidon!<br />(just like LTT and his 100 companions)<br /><br />Have't seen a trolloc for a while also.....<br />Wonder where they are....<br /><br />X<br />


created: 2002-10-13 23:32:30
subject: <b>hmm...</b>
body:
It would be nice to think that armies would be completely avioded, but as a wise man once said &quot;No war was ever won without infantry.&quot; That wise man was me.  All these channelers will most likely be fighting each other.<br /><br />Besides, what kind of cool ending would it be without massive bloodshed of many armies. Just my two pennies..<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sewiouswy.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-05 11:12:25
subject: <b>Seanchan Ogier and the Longing...</b>
body:
I originally thought that the Ogier from Seanchan were free from the longing because they gave up their &quot;Ogierness&quot; by embracing violence and abandoning their connection to trees/nature/peace.  I have a new idea based upon something I found on this site that RJ said - &quot;Such a bond would be possible, but an Ogier would find it a very strange thing to be asked to do. I can't think of an Ogier on this side of the Aryth Ocean who would be willing to accept.&quot;  <br />   Why would he say &quot;this side of the Aryth&quot;?  Maybe the Deathwatch Ogier are bonded to someone (the Empress, or Tuon?).  If they are bonded to Tuon, this might pose some problems for Matt in the near future...  Just a thought.


created: 2003-08-31 20:29:10
subject: <b>Ogiers in the fight.</b>
body:
At present, the Great Stump is in meeting.  Unfortunately, they will have to deliberate in haste, since the Last Battle is near.<br /><br />As for fighting, oh yes.  They will be formidable. As for fighting alongside channelers, don`t forget how effective Loial and Perrin were at Dumai`s Wells.<br /><br />Can hardly wait for this BIIIIG Event.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2006-02-03 13:52:33
subject: <b>the armies in andor</b>
body:
i dont know if someone covered this cuz im to lazy to read all the comments but..... the four small armies of 5-10 thousand that halwen reported came and besieged cam, they are all andoran and are trying to keep elayn from the throne and put some otha hoe on there. The borderland army is over 200000 fighting men. TWOHUNDREDTHOUSAND not 40000 at most. ogier armies would be badass but sad.<br /><br /><br />masrith ta-daishar<br />        sexiest man on earth


created: 2007-04-15 11:28:32
subject: <b>In Tarmon Gaidon</b>
body:
Personally, I think that it will be so hard for Loial (who will obviously be speaking at the Great Stump) to convince all the Ogier to fight, so Tarmon Gaidon (am I missing a apostrophe in there somewhere?) will have started and it will be a battle much like the Somme that lasts forever.  Because Tarmon Gaidon will have started, the Ogier will come at a critical moment and change the tides of battle for Rand.  And the best thing will be the thundering battle shout all of them say as they are coming into battle.  w00t! (or is it WoT? (bad pun))


created: 2008-01-02 13:18:13
subject: <b>the ogier will stir</b>
body:
both of you read the rest of the books.<br />the armies are not ogier.<br />loial does not go get the ogier riled up until the knife of dreams.<br />and even then he doesn't actually do it yet that will happen in the twelfth book.


created: 2001-04-27 00:00:00
subject: <b>FIRST!!!</b>
body:
Ok, first off, the first post dance *makes a fool of himself*  Second, I think Tuon has this major crush on Mat.  Wow, short, sweet, and to the point, that's a first.<br /><img src="images/aessedai.gif" /> <img src="images/jester.gif" />


created: 2001-06-04 08:56:12
subject: <b>Rolling the Tuon dice</b>
body:
Oh yeah, Tuon is after Mat, but is it a crush, intense curiosity about a man who does the crazy things trusting his luck as Mat does, or a plan of her own? The Seanchan see omens in the smallest details of life, like a certain bug walking across the ground or a certain bird singing in a tree. Maybe she saw something that suggested to her Mat was important. Maybe she likes the idea of a man who will walk in on a queen and rant like a madman with no fear. Certainly that would be something she's never seen before.<br /><br />As for Tylin and her setting up an elaborate plan to transfer Mat from Tylin to Tuon, I gotta say no. Tylin has been many things that Mat didn't wish on himself, but she has never lied to him. Remember the first time he plans to leave, before the Seanchan overrun the city, Tylin was ready to let him go. And this time, though she slaps his face for trying to leave behind her back, she knows he's doing the right thing.<br /><br />I also don't see Tuon hooking Tylin up with adoption to the blood, etc., as a tool to get Mat. If she wanted Mat, and didn't care about Tylin, Tylin would be on a pike at the gates next to the Mistress of the Ships and her Blademaster, and Mat would be tied to Tuon's bedpost. The Seanchan BIG PLAN is to salvage as many people and as much property as possible without a fight as they invade. In doing so, any ruler who takes the vow and agrees to aid them is spared, and even left in place. When the Seanchan discover that they have the Queen of Andor in the Fortress of the Light, Morgase is given the chance to serve the Empire, and retain her throne. Yes, in Tylin's case it seems to go beyond that, and for why we'll have to RAFO, but we could attribute it to Mat's ta'verenness.<br /><br />Anyway, whatever Tuon has planned won't matter, she's going to end up kneeling to Rand to fulfil one of Egwene's first dreams.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> Call me Tim <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-07 18:13:43
subject: <b>TUON AND A FORTELLING</b>
body:
One of Tuon's damane did a fortelling for her when she was still on the ship bound for Ebou Dar and it angered her. I think the fortelling said she would fall in love and marry someone not of the Blood. She has been looking for sighn of something since she arrived at Ebou Dar. I think she sees signs in the ashendarei and Mat's ring that he is the one, and i think she likes the idea it is him. Thats why she smiles at him when she sees him.<br />  This is just a theory. Please let meknow if there are holes in it.


created: 2001-06-21 11:41:19
subject: <b>Hmmmm</b>
body:
I agree, Tuon does have something up her sleeve, but also, can you imagine Mat married to Tuon? She beat the crap out of him... the only reason he got away was because that other guy came up behind her. Obviously, Tuon has the training in fighting, but not the experiance.<br /><br />Aienan<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>&quot;The world is like a cactus, except the pricks are inside.&quot;</i><br /><i>&quot;If at first you don't succeed, Skydiving is not for you.&quot;</i></font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-24 22:14:45
subject: <b>her version of it</b>
body:
she sorta  had a foretelling like Mat did,a damane told her something on her ride to Randland.I would love to see RJ write exactly what she heard. something like &quot; you will marry the gambler,trickster, battle leader not of blood, but to rule the blood&quot; that would dif. piss her off abit. so like Mat when he found out, she was just feeling every man out to see if he was the one.maybe not as blunt as mat asking, but the same<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />.


created: 2001-10-02 19:58:40
subject: <b>Mat is like James Bond</b>
body:
He is cool, tough as nails, knows it, and doesn't care who or what you are.  Pure confidence.  Chicks love that stuff.  All he needs is a Martini.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Burasco <br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-13 11:37:36
subject: <b>In Defence of Mat</b>
body:
In Defence of Mat I have to say at the time he was injured and I am sure not actually wanting to hitback. Now Egwene saw Mat kneeling with his arms tied behind his back, naked and bruised with his Spear throughs his arms and back. Now i hope he does escape, and is not captured and get stuck in Ebou Dar(sp?)even longer. He needs to meet Casduane, cause that meeting will be interesting.


created: 2002-05-11 22:32:31
subject: <b>Look at the &quot;Omens&quot;</b>
body:
I agree with BLACKEYES on this subject. We all know that the sanchean all look to omens as portents of the future. Tuon saw mats ashendarei and saw the ravens on it, I think these ravens might come into play later on in the book somewhere in sanchean, say, perhaps the tower of the ravens that these sanchean seekers come from? She also sees his signet ring with the foxes on it. She seems to take that into account. Plus, I think she knows that she is supposed to marry him because her damane that could foretell  told her and thats why she was mad because she doesnt want to marry anyone not of the blood. I also think that shes just testing him to see if hes good enough to be her husband....Like when she tried to fight him in the stable.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> Ryan Paendragoon <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />of the Far Aldazar Din Sept</font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-07 01:24:16
subject: <b>storm dragon</b>
body:
from what i have seen and read so far it stands to reason that Tuon set out to make Mat hers.... however i think it is more than just the unknown damane prediction that has her after him. one he does whatever he wants. ie walking in and ignoring a queen.<br />two i remember that the ravens are a sign of a man serving the throne... they become powerful slaves but that only fools got the raven because it meant future generations were slaves too. when she asks to buy his weapon he tells her only a fool would pay it once let alone twice...<br />would you not be curious of a guy like this. who appears to know little of your ways yet also hints at a deep knowledge of you customs and such...<br /><br />so yeah i think that is why she wanted him. he was like no one she had ever known. and what better man than that and one who would fight back too. hehehe


created: 2003-12-30 02:15:21
subject: <b>Good PLan</b>
body:
<br />This post is based on conspiracy theory. I think Tuon has inside information and she knew more about Mat&#8217;s plan and what he is destined to do than Mat does.  I believe that she knew who Mat was when she saw him based on Omens, Foretelling, Prophecy and such.  She is now a captive of Mat and will be joining his party as a hostage.  Bunk!!<br /><br />Noal is more than an interesting old man, I believe that he is her agent.  She set up the circumstance via her prior knowledge of events to come, Mat is in for a interesting journey.<br /><br />To begin, Winter&#8217;s Heart (WH) What a Veil Hides  &#8220;Yuri, the sharp-nosed man everyone thought was her secretary, &#8230;..He was her secretary of course but also her Hand, commanding her Seekers.&#8221;    The only mention of Yuri is on the ship. Since he is her Hand and Secretary, he is naturally around Tuon, riding in the same ship during the Return, controls her Seekers (thus very scary to Blood and common Seanchan) and he can do this without all the fellow Seanchan knowing he is more than a secretary.  Thus, Yuri is smart, cunning, and does not stand out as particularly dangerous or powerful.<br /><br />Next WH,  An Unexpected Encounter Mat is out for a walk, many new Seanchan ships are in the harbor, Thom notices that the &#8220;Corenne has arrived.&#8221;  The Return for us and,  thus, Tuon and Yuri are in town. At this point, I expected an encounter between Mat and Tuon.  Instead, Jordan leads us through a talk between Mat, Thom and Beslan about the dangers of rising against the Seanchan.  Mat does not want them in trouble.  Thom states that Mat gets in bigger trouble when he is not trying than Beslan and Thom could get into with all of their efforts.  Naturally, Mat does not see the truth of that statement.  He always gets into trouble when he does not expect trouble by just being Mat.<br /><br />Now it gets interesting, Mat warns the others about the Seanchan Listeners.  Later, he leaves Thom and he wonders who may be a Listener since &#8220;Anyone could be.&#8221;   Mat feels a prickle between his shoulders, as if he is being watched&#8230;..gee, I wonder who is watching.    Must be the Gholam that is going to jump him in an alley that Mat just happened to walk down several streets from here to take a shortcut and get away from the crowds.  Nope.  Mat is being followed and here is why.<br /><br />Luck made the Gholam miss and naturally we, the readers, assume that the unexpected encounter was with the Gholam instead of a new Seanchan princess.  In a whole chapter about an encounter, the Gholam was there for 15 seconds or so.  The Gholam was unexpected since he jumped from above but Mat knew what it was and was not really surprised. To summarize, Mat wanders into alley, Gholam is there, the classic Foxhead medallion defense, stranger yells and the Gholam leaves.  Come on, Roger, give us something interesting. Well, I think he just did.  Mat encountered 2 people (if Gholam is people) in the alley.  The Gholam and Noal.  Noal was the unexpected encounter, hidden within the encounter with the Gholam.  <br /><br />It was mighty lucky that Noal was there, but Mat is lucky and we were not surprised.  Many people believe that Noal is likely Jain Farstrider (me too) and that is interesting but that does not really tells us what Noal is about.  I think Noal is also Yuri, Tuon&#8217;s Hand.  Tuon has a Aes Sedai for damane, a likely Forsaken (Anath) as her Truthspeaker, and a maid as her protector&#8230;&#8230;so why not a foreigner (Noal) as her secretary and Hand.  WH, Pink Ribbons  Noal is described as old, bent, stooped-shouldered, white-haired, with a large hooked nose on a sad face.  The guard also eyed the scrawny man at Mat&#8217;s side. Thus, Noal is not very big and has a hooked nose.  That is not sharped-nosed like Yuri but a narrow hooked nose could be seen as sharp.  <br /><br />Mat asked Noal if he was &#8220;new-come to Ebu Dar&#8221;.  Noal lied like a rug and claimed that he had been in the city for some time&#8230;.thus, he should know something about the Seanchan.  WH, Pink Ribbons  Noal displays an &#8220;apparent&#8221; lack of knowledge about Seanchan at the Palace gate by his questions.  Noal starts to walk in the palace door first rather than wait on Mat to lead.  Mat told him to wait since the Seanchan could be offended.  I think Noal appeared to be uncertain about how to act around Seanchan as part of an act.  Noal quietly asked the Ebu Dar guard &#8220;What would they do if you said no?&#8221; about the 3 Seanchan riders.  The guard told Mat to warn Noal about &#8220;questions better left unasked&#8221; in Ebu Dar.    Mat knows about dangerous questions, the guard knows, a sharp person like Noal should know too.  I think he does, he is just asking to see their reaction.  Mat assumes Noal knows nothing, and buys Noal&#8217;s befuddled old man act.  Noal said he was just curious.  Funny, his curiosity did not pick up the safe way to act around Seanchan since he had been in town for a while.<br /><br />Mat then told Noal about Listeners and Seekers.  &#8220;Seekers make White Cloak Questioners look like boys tormenting flies&#8230;&#8221;  Noal said he did not know that and looked irritated with himself.  For not knowing or was it that Mat had heard of Seekers?<br /><br />Then the old guy that knows nothing about the Seanchan asks Mat if he spends time with the High Lady Suroth (by name, and Suroth is one of the people that Tuon would have her Seekers investigating based on the ship conversation in What a Veil Hides).  When Mat says that leashed damane &#8220;was better than being dead&#8221;, Noal ask &#8220;Are you sure?&#8221;  Again good question, indicating Seanchan knowledge and an active curiosity.   Noal also says that Mat is the kind of man that does great things&#8230;.maybe Tuon told him.<br /><br />Now Mat meets Tuon.   She walks over, examines him, must have seen the ring with the Fox, Ravens, Moons and such and offers to buy him.  She even touches him and shifts his head.  &#8220;Fingertips under his chin&#8221;  Perhaps looking for a scar as an identifying marking as per some prophecy or omen. I do not think she was surprised to see him or his ring or scar.  She stared up at his face.  I think she knows what role he will play in the future.  The foretelling by Lidya and the fate that she was pissed about (had Lidya caned) on the ship was about Mat.  The fate that would have had the Blood chattering behind their hands, like marrying a commoner, good gossip. <br /><br />WH, News in a Cloth Sack  Noal goes into the city each day, still no sign of Yuri.  Noal offers his services for any big plans Mat is cooking.  Noal asks if the Gholam drinks blood.  Page 543, Noal gives an elaborate bow to someone behind Mat (It is Tuon and where did he learn that?).   We continue to hear from Noal about Gholam activities, but the general population does not realize a killer is loose and the killings is connected.<br /><br />P. 548, Thom said that Noal said the Gholam killed again.  Thom said the Seekers are not to eat or sleep until the killer is caught.  Mat asks if Noal told Thom about the Seekers (in wonder). Why would Jordan have Mat ask that?  Noal (in theory) only knows what Mat told him about Seekers and Mat has to mention Seekers and Noal in the same talk for us to give us a clue.<br /><br />WH, What the Aelfin Said  Mat is leaving, Tuon confronts Mat (Why unless she knows he is destined to be more than Tylin&#8217;s Toy).  Tuon is dangerous, kung fu and stuff, hand to hand, kicks the crap out ( well, she hits hard anyway) of Mat who has the quickest hands Thom has ever seen.  This little buzz saw is picked up by a scrawny old man and he somehow avoids all of her kicks and she does not break his arm or something.  I bet Mat could not have held her without getting bruised.   It was just too easy for Noal.  <br /><br />When Mat says to they will tie Tuon up and leave her in the stable, Noal sighs &#8220;And I thought you were kidnapping her.&#8221;  When Mat says the &#8220;she is my wife&#8221; line, Noal laughs softly. When Noal asks if they will leave Tuon and her Maid (Selucia) in the loft, Mat says &#8220;no, we take them with us.&#8221;, Tuon smiles and Mat shivers.  <br /><br />The Maid enters she says &#8220;Forgive me for speaking but what you do is foolish beyond reason.  Whatever the omens, this can still be rectified if you will only consent to draw back.&#8221;  She was not talking to Mat, she does not need his forgiveness.   She is talking to Tuon.  Tuon had a plan based on omens and the foretelling.  It involved Mat and prior knowledge of the night&#8217;s events.  Omens the maid had heard and did not have much faith the plan based on the omens.  Noal was a part of the plan.  If Tuon knew Mat was important, who would she have watch him other than herself.  Her Hand would be a likely person, where is Yuri?  He is holding Tuon.  She has a plan, the Maid did not agree but Tuon told her to shut up and remember who is the boss with the secret tiny gestures that they have to talk to their folks.  Jordan talks about this ability in the Wheel of Time book.  They practice so that the so&#8217;jhin can see the gestures without looking directly at the Blood.  <br /><br />So the real theory is that Tuon saw Mat coming, Noal works for her as her Hand, she intended to be &#8220;kidnapped&#8221; and is taking several of her important people with her.  Mat is trapped in the bottom of a well.    Ynot Takeit<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Ynot Takeit<br /><br />from the village of Uall.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-04-23 00:00:00
subject: <b>Oooh</b>
body:
Good point, I never really thought of the TP as pure chaos and all that stuff.  Good idea.<br />Now for the first post dance.  *attempts to dance and just ends up breaking everything around*  oops.<br /><img src="images/aessedai.gif" /> <img src="images/jester.gif" />


created: 2001-08-13 02:54:32
subject: <b>One Power is drawn from the True Power</b>
body:
Think of it as the difference between creating solar power with the use of solar panels millions of miles from the sun and protected by an ozon layer, a reliable source of energy and if you have enough panels to soak it up, quite powerful, however, compare it to drawing in a handleful of 20,000 degree burning hydrogen directly from the sun. Think of the power you could yield if it weren't for one small problem, you would get fried inside of a few seconds exposure to it.<br /><br />That is why only a handful have ever been allowed to use it.<br />Using the True power for Moridin is burning him out, literally.  Only the Creator and the Dark One can utilize the True Power with indifference.  The Creator used it to create obviuosly the world, the universe, the pool of One Power for his &quot;Aes Sedai&quot; to use in helping mankind.  The Dark one to move the universe to his will, to warp the very fabric of creation, destroy, etc etc...<br /><br />Moridin uses the True Power, but could he ever channel the One Power before? No he could not, I believe that once you have used the one power or the True power you are shielded from using the other.  They require different focuses to use and thusly cut the user off from the other.  My thoery is that the True Power is as dangerous to use as Balefire.<br /><br />The wound on Rand's side is a tough one though.  Ishy did not use the True Power and I do not Believe there is any reference to it or saa in his eyes.  I believe instead that the wound Rand received was instead caused by the Ishy's ties to the DO.  Kind of like the weapon's used by Fades, the ones forged in Shayol Ghul.  Ishy's evil passed through his weapon into Rand, his weapon was also very evil or had the essence of evil.  Remember when Rand had been hit by Machin Shin in HoW and his Ashaman (insert name sorry) &quot;healed&quot; him, the Ashaman didn't remove the evil or heal him perse, but drew it all to one spot and isolated it to the area of the wound.  He healed the physical portion of the wound and closed it but could not remove it because the evil was alive, the same evil surrounding Ishy during their first Battle and the following battles.<br /><br />No, the One Power is drawn for the True Power and in the next few books we will see both the awesome might of the True Power and its demise...  Moridin is going to fry himself and one or two other bad guys.  The True Power is not Evil as the One Power is not evil, only the users of those powers can determine what is done with its uses.


created: 2002-02-07 18:55:44
subject: <b>Just out of curiousity...</b>
body:
...does it ever actually state that the True Power causes madness?  I believe all it says is that it's just much more seducive than the One Power, which is why it's more dangerous.  Just because Ishy was crazy doesn't mean it was because of the True Power...in fact, I think it's the other way around.  He used the True Power because he was mad, he wasn't mad because he used the True Power.<br /><br />I know this isn't exactly what your theory was about, but it is part of it...a part I disagree with.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>Hi!  I'm Mat!  I'm just like Mat from the WoT...except I don't have that hat, medallion, sword-spear, and I can't speak the old tongue...although I did dance with one of the Forsaken once...</i><br /><br />-Mat <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-17 18:43:41
subject: <b>Ishamael IS Moridin</b>
body:
They're the same guy, as 8 suggests and 9 makes clear.  Any wound caused by the One Power should be healable, so I think this theory is quite right in suggesting that Ishamael wounded Rand with the &quot;True&quot; Power.<br /><br />This theory is also correct about the nature of the &quot;True&quot; Power.  It's inherently chaotic and evil, like the Dark One himself.  It's never something the Creator would use, as Blackmojo suggested.  Remember, &quot;True Power&quot; is not it's correct name.  Only the Forsaken call it the &quot;True Power,&quot; just like they call the Dark One &quot;The Great Lord,&quot; and themselves &quot;The Chosen.&quot;  It's all Darkfriend spin control.  There's nothing &quot;True&quot; or good about it.<br /><br />As for there being a limited supply of Chaos to power the &quot;True&quot; Power, I don't think that's quite right.  Then we would have to postulate an equally finite One Power, wouldn't we?  Something that is replenished by Order?  I think Chaos is helping the Dark One's cause by giving him a firmer foothold in the world, thus weakening the seals on the bore.  That makes him more powerful _within the world_, but not more powerful in an absolute sense.<br /><br />Florian


created: 2002-08-09 04:46:32
subject: <b>One Power subsidiary of True Power?</b>
body:
I thought at first that the True Power was the more basic force from which the One Power is derived.  Blackmojo's solar analogy describes this well.  I still wouldn't discount the theory, but several points suggest otherwise:<br /><br />1) It has only been referred to as the &quot;True Power&quot; by the Forsaken.  These are people who call themselves &quot;Chosen&quot; and refer to Shai'tan as the &quot;Great Lord&quot;.  Their terminology is skewed by their world view.<br /><br />2) Saidin &amp; Saidar turn the Wheel of Time.  The will of the Wheel is more powerful than any entity we've yet seen, even Shai'tan (for now).  If the True Power is a stronger, more fundamental force, the Wheel should draw on it instead of relying on a weaker pool created solely for human/Aes Sedai convenience.<br /><br />3) In reality, power is neither good nor evil, but the metaphysics of Jordan's fantasy universe can be quite different.  If the True Power is not evil but only dangerous, I would expect someone other than Darkfriends would at least have knowledge of it, but even the Age of Legends Aes Sedai made no recorded mention of its existence.  Also, like tainted Saidin, I would expect the Dark Lord could provide protection against its dangers.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">-JasonDrake<br />&quot;Where the far left meets the far right&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2002-11-19 21:47:26
subject: <b>well</b>
body:
First the one power is drawn from the true source not the true power I think that you were right when you said it causes madness because moriden is insane and why else would the other forsaken not use it if it was not very dangerous and I don't think the reason is that it is more seductive even if it was you could still learn control now I also don't think it is limited because it is the balance to the one power the reason no one else uses it is none but the forsaken know about it and because you have to be connected to the dark one to use it


created: 2001-04-12 00:00:00
subject: <b>Agree <img src="images/smile.gif" /></b>
body:
I posted something to the same effect sometimes last year <img src="images/smile.gif" />  It's probably in the archives, somewhere . . .<p>I believed it then, still believe it now.</p>


created: 2001-07-28 18:37:42
subject: <b>i agree whole heartedly!..</b>
body:
they  also look alike (from a memories basis only)...something about even though the sea folk are all tanned and stuff the amayar are not, and they have fair hair....but im not certain.....could some1 (if they have time) check this out for me????


created: 2001-08-14 14:00:53
subject: <b>they have the song</b>
body:
I tbink that the tremalking folk are in posession of the song that is missing from the mainland and it will be discovered through them. peace.


created: 2002-01-22 08:31:54
subject: <b>I agree about the song...</b>
body:
I was thinking the same thing as I read that part in the WoT guide the other day...These ppl are just like the tinkers (aiel).  The only thing about their looks is that they are short, while the aiel and tinkers, I beleive are tall.  They are, however blond and fair skinned.  As already stated, they follow the same lifestyle as the tinkers.<br /><br />Since they don't want anything to do with the world outside Tremalking and nobody knows of their existance, it seems perfectly possible that they know 'the song' and that is why it hasn't been found yet.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">LaSombra <br /><br />&quot;Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.&quot; Benjamin Franklin<br /><br />&lt;3 Joe<br />*lurves her rock*<br />* Aes sedai to Great Lord of Chaos *</font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-01 10:50:26
subject: <b>The guard dogs...</b>
body:
We all know that the Tinkers have large guard dogs, right? I was just rereading WH again, and I think it's right at the end where there is a mention of the Amayar, and it says in it that they had large guard dogs. Another link? I don't think we've found any other people who actually have dogs for protection - I think the only other mentions of dogs are their aversion to Aes Sedai.


created: 2002-10-29 23:48:50
subject: <b>It's entirely possible...</b>
body:
A possible explanation for the absence of the Amayar in Rand's vision could be that not all of the surviving Da'shain Aiel went with the original Caravan. There were many of them. You'll also notice in the ter'angreal that the Dashain are recognized by their skin tone, not their height. Anyway, simple genetics. Two populations separated will eventually become distinguished from each other. Rand is likend to Aiel, not Tuatha'an, from which we can assume the Tuatha'an no longer look like the Aiel, though that could be from intermixing with outsiders who joing the way of the Leaf.<br /><br />The possibilities are endless. Good theory.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Honey, come to bed.&quot;<br />&quot;I can't. Somebody is wrong on the Internet.&quot;<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> Still a Stubborn supporter of Taimandred after KoD!  <br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-19 00:13:36
subject: <b>Ummmmm..</b>
body:
If I'm not mistaken, there were two seperate divisions among the original Daishan Aiel. This is all described in Chapter Twenty-Five of The Shadow Rising. I don't remember the specific details, but I'm pretty sure that there are two seperate divisions, and that one of these groups that broke away didn't want to stop following the Way of the Leaf. Could this be the Amayar?<br /><br />And the Tinkers do use large guard dogs, Mastiffs.


created: 2003-07-22 02:32:43
subject: <b>Um... No. The Tuatha'an were the First Split.</b>
body:
The The Shadow Rising During Rand's Flashbacks to the History of the Aiel, Only 2 Splits were shown.  This first split happened When Some of the Aiel Left behind the Ter'angreal and the Chora Trees, Taking the Wagons and Leaving to search for the Songs they had lost.  Those were the Tinkers, The Tuatha'an.  <br />You can even tell that they're The Tinkers because Adan Shouts at them Yelling something like:  &quot;GO!  Take the Wagons and Leave!  You are Lost!  You are Lost to us!&quot;<br /><br />As we all know, the Present Day Aiel refer to the Tinkers as &quot;The Lost Ones.&quot;<br /><br />The Amayar May be Remnants of the Aiel from the AoL, but I don't think so. They've never been connected to the Aiel Historically in the books.<br /><br />Also, There is absolutely no evidence that the Amayar have a Chora Tree or Even Know what it is.  From the apparent Fact that Avendesora is the only Chora Tree so much as remembered in story, I doubt ANY race or nation still has a Chora Tree besides the Aiel.


created: 2005-04-05 23:56:46
subject: <b>Probably 95% true</b>
body:
Seems likely for the most part. Colouring is similar, Way of Water is obviously a corruption of the Jenn's way of the Leaf. Most likely to be Aiel descndants, perhaps with greater knowledge of AOL due to their isolation and peaceful ways (less chance of knowledge being lost through accident like Aiel)<br />I doubt they have a Chora tree as Avendosora is considered by all to be so unique, kind of like the Norse Yggsdrasl(sp?) or world tree. Surely someone would have noticed another Chora tree (sea folk may be geographically isolated from main continent but they still form an integral part of Randland and would know and probably share it's myths). Avendosora is a big deal to Randlanders. Also, the Green Man (Someshta?) would presumably have known if another existed - his body mimics the land (blight/scar on face) and he reminisced aout sitting in Avendosora's shade.<br />I think it's more likely that the Amayar are descended from another group of AOL Aiel, perhaps migrating from a different (seaside?) city. Aiel seemed pretty common in AOL so the wagon group were probably not ALL who were left. Without instructions and a &quot;mission&quot; from Aes Sedai, they probably wouldn't have many angreal etc and probably not Chora's. However they also wouldn't have the racial guilt of the Aiel so no Ji e Toh.<br />Having witnessed the original Breaking, and having no real connection to the &quot;new&quot; (post breaking) world, they would have little or no inclination to take part in Rand's war. To such a people with knowledge and history from the AOL, the &quot;new&quot; world would be little more than an illusion, and now that the illusion is about to end they'll calmy sit back and wait to see what happens next. That's the Water Way - go with the flow!!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Some say it's better to live one day as a lion than a whole lifetime as a worm...but whoever heard of a wormskin rug? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perplexed.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-06-23 12:38:15
subject: <b>Agree</b>
body:
And I concur to the last post. BTW, it's spelled Yggdrasil. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before,' Bokonon tells us. 'He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way.'</font><p></p>


created: 2005-12-19 13:04:30
subject: <b>Good theory!</b>
body:
well, I guess it would explain how they got hold of the Bowl of Winds to begin with. About the Cora tree I'm not so sure but the rest sounds reasonable.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">..guide a truth, prevail and ride</font><p></p>


created: 2008-10-11 09:38:06
subject: <b>I disagree</b>
body:
First, I think they might be aiel. After all, considering that the world was united in one fashion or another, maybe not by nation but in peace during the AoL. Thus logically, the Aiel would be present on every continent and possibly all &quot;island&quot; if tremalkier was an island back then before the breaking for seed-singing. <br /><br />Thus they might just as well be aiel descendent but unlike their kin in Randland, they never was part of the caravan set out from Paaren disen with the wagons. <br /><br />I also have this theory that some seanchen custom comes from Aiel trapped there since I seem to remember something that is similar to the Aiel. If my memory serves me right, one way that they (The seanchen) has referred to in becoming Da'covale, property, is to put on white....doesnt that ring a bell concerning the Aiel gai'shain.<br /><br />Of course, this second part is just speculation and I can not remember where in the books I saw a seachen use that term for Da'covale. But still, dont you agree that aiel would likely been left on seachen too and that its more the just concident that gai'shain and Da'covale is a form of servent (Albeit in different ways) and both wear white.


created: 2001-03-25 00:00:00
subject: <b>Am i right?</b>
body:
This is how i thought it happened but i have a few questions since the wounds came from SL and TP.  And since  SL apparenty battled the Taint then the Taint is made From the TP right?


created: 2001-06-15 02:24:32
subject: <b>You are told where his inspiration came from</b>
body:
I'm not well read in the series to quote passages, but In either WH or POD he states that he plans to clense the source and he at least knows a vague way of how from asking the Elfinn.  He states that that was one of his questions.


created: 2001-06-16 11:02:15
subject: <b>what jordan said, when i asked it.</b>
body:
<br />You don't think it's obvious? <br />Err, let's see. You have.. You're using both repulsion and attration of opposites here. Repulsion of things that are opposite and repulsion of things that are the same. The Taint upon the... as versus the conduit, which is made of saidar through which the saidin passes. The saidin and saidar, as men and women, are in many ways opposite. It repels one another. It is safe to make this conduit of saidar between saidin and Shadar Logoth, because there can be no mixing. [So far for wacky ideas that saidar is now tainted] As the eh.. as saidar [even Jordan sometimes has trouble remembering which is which...] passes through, as the taint passes through, the saidar actually repels it, pushes it away from the ..., alright? Now, you have a taint on ... the eh source, the male half of the source, you have the taint on shadar logoth. They're not the same, yet they are. The Taint on Shadar Logoth did not come from the Dark One. The taint was created by humans, who believed that they must do whatever was necessary, anything that was necessary to defeat the Shadow. And because they would accept no limits to what they would do, to what could be done, to what needed to be done, they created their own destruction. Their evil is, or was, as great as that of the Dark One, but diametrically opposite. It is an evil created for the best of intentions, created for good intentions. So it is the opposite. So, this attraction created the conduit begins to pull the Taint from saidar [ouch, again] to cipher it of. Remember, it's always been described it's not at mixed all through saidar [and again] , it is like a thin skin of rancidness, think of a thin skin of rancid oil floating on a pond, and if you get through it, you've got clean water, but you can't get through it without putting your hand in that oil. You're getting it on your hand. <br />... <br />To attract one another because they are opposites, but because even being opposite, they have gone far enough around the circle, they act to destroy one another. You see, it's not opposites along a straight line. We're actually talking opposites along a circle. Continuing the motif of the Wheel of Time, if you will. So you've got two things that are both opposites and the same. [He's been waving his hands in the air for this. Hands far apart for the straight line versus hands together, making a circle and coming together again] That will both attract one another and negate one another. <br />Do you understand better now? <br />yes, thank you. <br />Oh, and one last point: It's all imaginary my dear... <br /> <br />You can see full reports about jordan in the netherlands in april on www.wheel-of-time.myweb.nl/jordan.html<br />Aan'allein wrote it.<br /><br />bye isabel<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Isabel sedai of the green ajah, amyrlin of the OFFICIAL nynaeve fanclub (http://home.wanadoo.nl/nynaeve/nynaeve.html)</font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-25 08:28:23
subject: <b>Just a little thing</b>
body:
To Bad Ash's comment.  Of course the effects of the taint were still felt.  Madness and Rand's sickness are diseases.  You aren't suddenly cured of the flu if you burn the person that gave it to you, are you?  Any Asha'Man that are mad I believe will remain mad unless healed by Flinn if he can figure out how, or the True Power (heh.  not gonna happen).  I think Rand's sickness, however, needs exposure to the taint to survive.  Without that, it will heal up.  Despite what I've seen some people say, I think Rand will be perfectly sane and healty for the last battle.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Hope of Mankind <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /> Protector of Blondes <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> Poster Guy for the Incurably Wacky <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /> Priest of Narg<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> Owner of the Endless Decanter of Booze <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-12-21 18:55:58
subject: <b>RE: Grayman</b>
body:
If that were the case I'd think the two forces in Rand's wound would cancel each other out the same way. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br />


created: 2003-03-28 11:31:11
subject: <b>In response to Grayman . . .</b>
body:
. . . Damer said that he had sealed tham away from him, and that maybe they would kill each other off.  The scale of the Shadar Logoth destruction may have been tipped to Shadar Logoth's side because Shadar Logoth's evil was created by human beings, whereas I don't think the D.O. is human, and living emotions and actions are far stronger than anything else.  The wounds in Rand's side may just be a more even match for each other, since both were created by a living, breathing, psychotic human. (As human as Ishamael was, anyway . . . <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" />)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Brianne Aes Sedai, First Weaver of the Yellow Ajah<br />Bonded to Daniel Gaidin<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />High Priestess of academic theories<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" />Amyrlin Seat of the Wheel of Time Club in Oklahoma City<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /> <br />'Helluo librorum'<br />'Bene legere saecla vincere.' <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-03-21 00:00:00
subject: <b>I Pity Da Foo</b>
body:
I pity da foo who says Saidin and Saidar cannot touch.  What you think slicin weaves is about, foo!?<p>I pity da foo who says hundreds of dreadlords can use the TP when it's only around 30!</p>


created: 2001-03-25 00:00:00
subject: <b>Nother ting to point out</b>
body:
I should point out that in the sealing of the Bore if the Hundred Companions did have any turncoat dreadlords, that those dread lords even had any of them been among the 29 people (it's now 30 if we count Shadar Haran) that have ever had the honor of using the True Power, would have been unable to use it against the DO and the Forsaken. It has been mentioned in many Forsaken POV spots that the True Power can only be used with the Dark Ones consent. The idea that the dark one would let a former servant of his that was working for the other side use the TP to seal up the hole in his prison is just a bit silly.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-04-02 00:00:00
subject: <b>Taint can be finite without Saidin being so...</b>
body:
I believe that the taint can (and is) finite and thus can (and has been <img src="images/smile.gif" />) removed from saidan without implying that saidin itself being finite . The way i look at it is like a well , the well of saidin is bottomless and infinite with the power , however the top surface of the 'well' is a finite area through which the infinate power is drawn , thus the taint sitting on this finite area is also finite , it also fits very nicely with your exponential decay theory (100 companions struck mad instantly through to slow madness in the current age) thus rand siphoned off the taint from the top of the well leaving the infinate power below untainted


created: 2001-04-06 00:00:00
subject: <b>Taint and Saidin</b>
body:
The way I see it saidin and saidar are not neseccarily infinite.  Everytime someone uses either it depletes the pool (granted the pool is huge compared to the amount that can be held and used at any one time).  Once the person lets go of the weave then the saidin or saidar that was used is recollected and readded to the pool with no loss to the total.  Thus something that appears infinite is actually finite.  As for the taint it is mixed with saidin and I believe that it does not actually stay with the person who is channeling but does its damage as it goes through.  Thus when saidin gets recycled into the pool so does the taint.  Now when rand used the most powerful sa'angreal ever used he basically filtered the pool using the evil of SL as the filter.  As saidin went through SL the taint was held up.  Thus only clean saidin got put back into the pool and the taint collapsed in on intself becuase it was no longer attached to anything in the world and had to go somewhere.


created: 2001-05-03 00:00:00
subject: <b>FYI</b>
body:
Just FYI, Saidin and Saidar can indeed touch, it is simply that channelers of one cannot -see- the other.  Recall Egwene probing the shield around Callandor?  She could -see- the Female half of the weave, but the male half was an invisible wall; touched, but not felt.


created: 2001-05-22 19:01:09
subject: <b>Of filtering, siphoning, and finitude</b>
body:
The weaves of sadin/saidar that Rand formed using the Choedan Kal created a filtering, siphon, conduit indeed. The taint, ALL of it, was pulled through this conduit to be collected at Shadar Logoth. Mashadar is a force which is attractive to the taint, and holds it like a giant well, until it imploded. (An atom bomb works by forcing radioactive material together through a small implosion until the compression action of atoms can no longer be contained in the space provided.) Remember how saidin feels when being used in Shadar Logoth, and how the evil in Rand's wounds throb and pulse when he is there.<br /><br />A smooth stroke to remove the taint on Saidin and Mashadar together.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> Call me Tim <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-27 14:29:30
subject: <b>Too Simple?</b>
body:
I believe that your argument about this being too simple a way to remove the Dark One's taint is flawed.  True, they were just sitting in a field for a few hours.  However, Rand and Nyn both have power equal to that found in the AoL and the Forsaken, and they are both using the most powerful sa'angreal ever made.  Remember, Lanfear believed that with both her and Rand using the Choedan Kal, they could have destroyed the Dark One.<br /><br />Also, remember that the Dark One ordered every available Forsaken to the aforementioned field with orders to stop Rand.  This goes against his earlier strategy of &quot;Let the Lord of Chaos rule.&quot;  This implies to me that Rand was on the right track, and if left alone would, in face, be able to remove the taint.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Hope of Mankind <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /> Protector of Blondes <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> Poster Guy for the Incurably Wacky <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /> Priest of Narg<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> Owner of the Endless Decanter of Booze <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-27 14:48:21
subject: <b>The Seals you fools!</b>
body:
The seals are a focus for a weave of Saidar. It is the Seals that are corrupted.<br />The Taint is held in the Seals and leaks out to affect all Saidar (just as that constant weave frome the Bowl of Winds affects One Power).<br />The weave of the Seals is finite, so the Taint is finite.<br />Simple<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;We wont give a fig,<br /> We'll tell you to,<br /> Go stick your head in a pig!&quot;<br />  The Sirius Cybernetics Customer Services Helpline - Share and Enjoy!</font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-14 05:06:27
subject: <b>Channelin' ain't easy...</b>
body:
I feel that I have to disagree here and says that the Taint has been cleansed from Saidin, for two reasons. The first is the practicality of work going into the act itself by Jordan. For all intents and purposes, that was the main goal of WH. This is supported by the lack of signifigant advancement in any of the other current plotlines in the book, as well as the book starting with Rand saying he was going to cleanse Saidin (Am I the only one that gave a shiver? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> ) and ending with the actual act itself. Now, if Saidin is not cleansed then this will generate the need for another book in which it to be fully cleansed, which is frankly rehashing used material, which is beyond a writer of such caliber as Jordan. Now, the second reason for the Taint being cleansed is more along the lines of what they did. They did not simply sit in a field for a half an hour and Saidin is clean. We have to recall the EXTREME effort that is required to embrace the One Power, let alone do something of any complexity. The Void is an achieved state of mind in which one is detached emotionally and mentally from the immediate sensory world, which is a state that monks speak most of their lives trying to achieve. This done, they have to sieze the Source, which the difficulty is displayed by it taking 4 or 5 books for Rand to reliably be able to grasp it. Now, through various examples in the books, we learn that doing anything with the Power beyond the simplest acts is horribly complex; so much so that it is divided up into Talents. Remember, also, that both Nyn and Rand passed out from channeling so much, and before that Nyn moaned from the euphorial, transcendent state of channeling so much of the Power. I doubt, if fact that see was really aware of anything beyond the ecstaty in her mind, which could develop into a sorta addiction ( Hmm, that could be neat <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> ). Now, based on this knowledge, we can say, with fair certainly, that Saidin is clean.


created: 2002-11-20 02:13:52
subject: <b>To apk5 OR Mixing Metaphors</b>
body:
The One Power is neither finite nor infinite.  In EOTW, Egwene asks Moiraine about using up the Power, to which Moiraine responds with a metapohor of a mill wheel using the power of the river that flows by.  As long as the river flows, there is power to be used.  As long as the Creator exists, there is Power to be used.<br /><br />Now, there is also the metaphor of the taint being like an oil slick ontop an ocean.  However, when using the Power, you don't just get a bucket of water from an ocean and go throw it somewhere.  That would be using it up.  You &quot;tap&quot; the Source, touch being another way of saying it.  This metaphor is simply used to describe the fact that you cannot touch Saidin without touching the taint.<br /><br />But yes, Rand did cleanse Saidin of the taint entirely.  I don't think it is necessary to think of his method as channelling &quot;all&quot; of Saidin, since there is no &quot;all&quot; to it.  True, it has been described as &quot;syphoning&quot; off the taint, but I think it would be more accurate to say that he &quot;separated&quot; the taint from Saidin, &quot;moved&quot; it.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Bob L. Sedai (a.k.a. Luge) <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /><br />Fighting off the Taint - <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tinfoilhat.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" />Thanks given to Burr, the ever-helpful theory critic<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />And to Light in the Night, fellow theorist extraordinaire<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Voted Best Screenname 1 (one) years in a row.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-22 04:36:36
subject: <b>Here goes</b>
body:
First off I am fairly certain that sometime during Asmodean's teaching of Rand he says that he is now subject to the taint and all its effects. This tells me the black cords siphon off the taint for the men who have it. (no page refrences sorry don't have book in front of me)I aslo think this is partly where Rand got his idea for the clensing.<br /><br />Wether or not Saidin is pure for good is a RAFO subject.<br /><br />I don't think the seals caused the taint on saidin either. The seals where created the very second that the taint was put on saidin. Therefore I believe they were made with pure saidin. I think the taint came straight from the DO himself. It was his final direct act on the pattern or the world if you will.


created: 2003-01-22 19:45:42
subject: <b>From the Choedan Kal to the OP</b>
body:
When Rand and Nyn were channeling through the Choedan Kal, there was an enormous amount being thrown through, thanks to the most powerful sa'angreal ever made, and their ter'angreal keys.<br /><br />I think that Saidan is CLEAN.  Note the female key being melted and the male (if I remember right) being broken in two.  This basically throws out using them again, unless, of course, Elayne can throw together two more (next book?).<br /><br />On the black cords:  I think that's where Rand got the idea to use black cords to cleanse the taint off, he just needed somewhere to tie them to to get the taint on, i.e. the DO.  However, since Rand is not a Darkfriend, he couldn't use the DO, so he used the next best thing (and killed two birds with one stone), Shadar Logoth.  Note the way the taint feels in Shadar Logoth, as if it wants to pump itself right out of the streets and through your feet.  It feels harder, more alive if you will, there, as well as Shadar Logoth's own taint.  They feed on each other, mainly because Shadar Logoth hates the DO with a passion, so obviously it would suck onto anything DO related JUST to destroy it.<br /><br />The taint is very DO related, considering it's made by the DO, so obviously SL would want to destroy it.  However, it doesn't know how to control it's wants and needs, so it overdid it and collapsed in on itself, but removed the taint quite well and good.<br /><br />Now, since Rand was channeling so much using the Choedan Kal, you'd think he could feel the smallest amount of the taint while he was still channeling.  bobsledai brought up a good point about the OP being something like an ocean.  You touch the OP, not literally draw it out, so in touching it, you would have to go through the taint, which was more of an &quot;oil slick&quot; on top.<br /><br />Now, this presents a small question on my part, of course.  In Eye of the World, Rand found a pool of pure Saidan, and used it all up.  He didn't merely touch it, it became him, it was IN him (the white cord?).  Could this be something like what happens at Tarmon Gai'dan?  Could he BECOME Saidan, and someone like Nyn/Elayne/Egwene BECOME Saidar to battle the DO?  It seems plausible, seeming what he did with the pool of pure Saidan against the Trollocs at the Borderland border and to Ishamael.  He and Nyn (or another powerful female) may become pure OP to destroy the DO to the full extent.


created: 2001-03-24 00:00:00
subject: <b>YES!!!</b>
body:
Too right! Four out of four, mate! To specify something, the DoTNM is Tuon, the Empress' daughter. Obvious, true, but it's good to see them posted instead of just assuming "everyone knows".<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Ruriha <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-03-27 00:00:00
subject: <b>At least 3 of 4.</b>
body:
1. Cyndane is Lanfear. Taking into account several other theories also mentioned on this page as well as the following "kicker" from WH. I feel it is safe to say Cyndane is Lanfear.<p>a. (p641) So he had found a woman to use the other access key. She would have faced the Great Lord - faced the Creator!-with him. She would have shard the power with him, let him rule the world at her side. And he spurned her love, spurned her! </p><p>This is obvilously Lanfear since she made the above offer to Rand and he spurned her.</p><p>b. (p649) She was stronder than Cyndane had been before the Aelfinn and Eelfinn held her!</p><p>I believe this is to be a reference to Lanfear's time in the Finn world after being pushed through by Moiraine. The question is where is Moiraine?</p><p>2. Osan'gar is Aginor and Corlan Dashiva. This one is also from WH and is pretty much stated point blank.</p><p>a. (p645) Crouching behind a fallen log, Osan'gar panted for the exertion of running. Those months masquerading as Corlan Dashiva had not made him any fonder of exercise.</p><p>3. Daughter of Nine Moons is Tuon. </p><p>So good jome Patrick. <img src="images/biggrin.gif" /> <br /></p>


created: 2001-04-01 00:00:00
subject: <b>Ishy/Moridin is also obvious</b>
body:
People usually notice the sentence where it says that Moridin "had often seemed to believe he was [the Dark One]" just like Ishamael. But there is a better proof next line: "and the boy's face he wore now gad not changed that"; which  means that Demandred knew him before as one of the Chosen.<p>Well, but it is obious.</p><p>Whitefire.</p>


created: 2001-04-24 00:00:00
subject: <b>Too right Ishy is Moridin</b>
body:
Ishamael had been high on Dark One's list, with power only equalled/better by Dragon, so if Dark one could bring back people from dead, he would be of prime importance, and alot more likely than getting some new guy completely unknown to everyone to leap into Nae'Blis position.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Moridin/Ishamael's spiritual advisor.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-green.gif" border="0" /> Jedi Knight <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-green.gif" border="0" /><br />Proud Warder to Tatayana and Lanfear81.<br />In love with a beautiful English lady.<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-04-24 00:00:00
subject: <b>Why?</b>
body:
I don't know why everyone things Lanfear died!  The thing I find funny about it is everyone says *and I agree* that Moiraine is living, but if one could live through the Finn's hospitality, why couldn't two?  Both are strong enough, and isn't Lanfear stronger than Moiraine?  So if one person had to have died, I would think it would be Moiraine, and since she can't have died, lets face it, she's too cool and Rand needs her, both have to be alive!<br />*If anyone has proof stating that Lanfear is dead, sorry I missed it, I really need to reread the books*<br /><img src="images/aessedai.gif" /> <img src="images/jester.gif" />


created: 2001-06-04 09:10:43
subject: <b>RE: Lanfear</b>
body:
To answer arangin's post, there's no PROOF that Lanfear died. There is evidence. Why put her in Cyndane's body if she didn't die? Why weaken her strength in the Power if she didn't die? Why mindtrap her if she hadn't failed in something important?<br /><br />As for who had the better chance of living through the trip to the Eelfinn, as the two women fell through the doorway Moiraine snatched the bracelet angreal from Lanfear's wrist. Moiraine has an angreal of her own already at work, so there's a significant chance that at that point she's stronger than Lanfear. Also, isn't it implied somewhere that the *Finns aren't very hospitable to the Shadow? Egwene warns Mat about what manner of questions he can safely ask, and although my memory is poor on the details it seemed that questions about the Forsaken or Shadowspawn would not be well received. Well, how much more one of them in the flesh? Anyway, that's all conjecture, but I lean strongly to Lanfear dying among the *Finns, the Lord of the Grave bringing her back as Cyndane, and Moiraine still alive in *Finnland.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> Call me Tim <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-03 09:52:26
subject: <b>More on Aginor</b>
body:
If anyone doesn't think that Aginor is Osan'gar(Which I doubt anyone does, but who cares)I have more on the topic. In WH, Chapter 35 With the Choedan Kal, page 645, Osan'gar thinks &quot;He had never been a soldier, not really. His talants, his genius, lay elsewhere. The Trollocs were his making, and thus the Myrddraal that had sprung from them, and other creatures that had rocked the world and made his name famous.&quot; This states that Osan'gar made the Shadowspawn, the achievement that made Aginor famous. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/blush.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Eben Hopwil <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-16 13:14:27
subject: <b>To add..</b>
body:
And Demandred is _not_ Taim! At the end of WH he goes towards Rand/Ny when they are using the Choden Kal keys, and he sees Damer Flinn (one of the first Asha'man Taim recruited) and doesn't recognise him (it takes him the best part of a page to work out that Flinn is an Asha'man!)<br /><br />And so dies the most annoying thoery ever created <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-08-14 20:16:43
subject: <b>Well, let's not be too sure about that....</b>
body:
I personally believe that Taim is not Demandred but after reading the insights of those who believe he is, I think that they have their grounds to believe it.<br /><br />Still, I think this topic is not yet finished so let's just wait.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/thom.gif" border="0" /> Jahar Narishma <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/seanchan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/seanchan.gif" border="0" /> Ashaman Extraordinaire <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/seanchan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/thom.gif" border="0" /> BS Saidin, major in Traveling <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-18 14:29:58
subject: <b>You got three out of the four so far, way to go dude!</b>
body:
The Daughter of the Nine Moons issue should of been clear to anyone re-reading The Great Hunt, as they make reference to the Court of the Nine Moons. I hope you are wrong about the fourth prediction, as I don't like the idea of Moridan being Ishamael.


created: 2002-04-29 12:24:36
subject: <b>wow</b>
body:
*waves a little flag on a stick* hooray!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br /><i>I will try. Before surrendering to dreams or death, I will try.<font color="black"></font></i></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-09 05:29:38
subject: <b>About Taim..</b>
body:
..yes, he's a male forsaken.  No, he's not Demandred or Osan'gar.  That doesn't leave too many to choose from.  So, Taim = Moridin = Ishamael.  I think that if the gars are brought into being end Bk5, why would the DO not bring Ishy back at the same time?  Obviously, there must have been a real Mazrim Taim, but i think he's been left for dead somewhere and it's now the Nae'blis himself who's the M'Hael.  I've written a breif theory to this effect, but w/out much substantiating evidence.  it just seems obvious that Taim is one of the Chosen, he is male, and there's not too many to choose from. Just because Moridin doesn't appear in the bks til after LOC doesn't mean he wasn't already active.  Unless Taim is Asmodean, which i think would be very lame, and anyway, the personalities are wrong.   <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /> Baphomet 23 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br />Give me the strength to change the things I can, the grace to accept the things I cannot, and a great big bag of money.<br /><br />My online gallery:<br />http://daveb23.deviantart.com/gallery/<br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-10 13:14:29
subject: <b>ABSOLUTELY</b>
body:
MUCH BETTER PROOFIN WINTER'S HEART BUT SOME OF IT IS &quot;CIRCUMSTANTIAL&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-07-20 15:40:30
subject: <b>THe Obvious, the not so obvious and the unobvious</b>
body:
I'd be giving him 4 out of 4. The only valid debate seems to be whether Ishamael is Moridin or not, but the fact of his 'preferred' treatment as compared to the other of the chosen and the fact that he is a regular user of the TP shows that he is most likely Ishamael then not. <br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" />


created: 2007-07-22 02:34:06
subject: <b>0.o</b>
body:
i agree with moridan and daughter of the nine moons. osan'gar has been told be be aginor so duh. cyndane being lanfear i doubt though<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> Shara is actually inhabited by bannanas <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /> The Band of the Red Hand is made of Ninjas like Mat<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /><br />Narg+Bela= Nela!<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/w00t.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /> ;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bela.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-03-21 00:00:00
subject: <b>I disagree</b>
body:
I firmly believe that the third face belongs to Moridin.  Remember that he said that through the turnings of the wheel, they have faced each other many times, sometimes on opposite sides of the battle.  Add this with the fact that the hallucinations didn't occur until Rand's encounter w/ Moridin in Shadar Logoth... it just seems obvious to me that it's Moridin.


created: 2001-03-22 00:00:00
subject: <b>Just another point to add</b>
body:
I seem to recall also that Cadsuane mentioned to Rand back in COS that all the male channelers she's ever dealt with have heard voices. This would coincide with all tainted channelers hearing their former selves.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-03-27 00:00:00
subject: <b>Guaire Amalasan</b>
body:
I think this third face Rand's seeing belongs to a former reincarnation of LTT, probably Guaire Amalasan,<br />since I'm absolutely convinced Guaire was a reincarnation of LTT (as Moridin_2000 proved very nicely).


created: 2001-05-03 00:00:00
subject: <b>Question...</b>
body:
My question to pose to you, then, is this: Recall the one Asha'man talking about the recruit who was babbling on about "spiders" after his first day?  How is -that- an effect of a previous incarnation?


created: 2001-06-04 09:22:10
subject: <b>And another question...</b>
body:
Fedwin Morr is 'put to sleep' by Rand when his mind turns into that of a small child. Rand recognizes this as a result of the madness. That doesn't fit with the theory that the madness is previous incarnations invading a male channeler's mind.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> Call me Tim <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-25 15:36:53
subject: <b>Another thought yo</b>
body:
Who says the madness is always hearing your past self? We've seen that the dark one has had a habit for trying new approaches with people. Perhaps Fedwin Morr was a child that died in one life, and some ashaman had a drastic case of arachnaphobia in another. However it could be that Ol SHait DAwg uses different methods to drive men mad. One man might find it relaxing to talk to his former self, so if you give him a crippling fear of bunny rabbits then that might be more effective.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-12 13:59:14
subject: <b>Here's the thing.</b>
body:
The breaking down of the barrier to past lives is only one of the effects of the madness the taint induces.<br /><br />The barrier is broken down, these guys are going mad anyway in other ways. Suddenly they have all these other memories in their head, they are their memories from past lives, but of course they couldn't know that and therefore can't handle it. The men can't handle this so what do they do? Subconciously they transfer the other memories in their heads to a voice they invent. This way they can handle it better, it's not that they're going mad, it's just another person is talking to them they think. So it is a way of dealing with all these different personality traights they're showing. In Rand's case it is slightly different as he is the only one who can actually put a name to his past self, the only one who knows he was once Lews Therin. So he actually has a name for his voice and that's why he believes it real, with other male channelers they just see it is a sign of madness eventually and it is unlikely that they will believe anything of what the voice says is true.


created: 2001-10-15 16:51:41
subject: <b>I've thought about the same thing</b>
body:
I've thought about the same thing, but I have an explanation to why the former self drives you mad.<br /><br />When we first see Aran'gar and Osan'gar, they comment on death being the worst possible form of existence. <br />(can't remember the exact phrase)<br /><br />Just think about spending 3000 years as dead.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/disapprove.gif" border="0" /> You'd go crazy if you weren't brought back immediately.<br />Now, all the people in Randland are incarnations, if only not as important as the Dragon Reborn.<br /><br />So, when that former self starts to become part of you, that former self is already a maniac, and therefor, you go mad as well.<br /><br />That's why LTT and his 100 companions went mad in an instant. When the DO struck against them, he erased their barriers completly, right there and then. (too much taint in too short time.)<br /><br />It would make sense, since it explains such things as spiders under the skin, or killing everything and everyone. They really are mad, but it was their former self who drove them mad.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">da'covale d'Rie Bolmdahl <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /><br /><i>Deyeneiye, dyu ninte concion ca ye</i> <font color="white">(no, tia Rie Bolmdahl)</font><br />I'm sleepy. <br /><br />currently: away</font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-14 12:25:32
subject: <b>Red Dragon</b>
body:
I'm rather surprised by how this discussion has not really speculated about who this third personality is. It could be Guaire Amalasan, Moridin, whoever else. But Lews Therin went mad long before these men were born. Perhaps the previous incarnation was the previous Dragon that ended our Age and began the Age of Legends. Ishamael said that Lews Therin never liked to be called &quot;Dragon&quot;...the implication here is that &quot;Dragon&quot; was applied to someone else long ago before the War of Power. If that person was indeed the one who ended our Age, who in our own prophecies is called &quot;Dragon&quot; and is also dreaded by us? The AntiChrist...or as he is called in our prophecies of end times: Great Red Dragon. Perhaps that's why Lews Therin never liked being called &quot;Dragon&quot; due to the obscure references to the horrors of our Red Dragon.<br />Ishamael also claimed that the Dragon has fought FOR the Dark One as many times as he fought against the Dark One. Would our own Red Dragon be the time Lews Therin's soul fought for the Dark One?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Gaeran Amaconde<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />Grand Historian at the Court of the Sun<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />One of Those Chosen to Bring the Light<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" />Master of Graendal's Revels<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" />&quot;If sometimes our dreams come true, what of our nightmares?&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-08-18 10:23:18
subject: <b>nice</b>
body:
I agree totally that the third voice is that of the 'dragon soul' who came before LTT, this person is unknown to us because no-one in the Age of Legends knew of a previous Dragon and so named LTT The Dragon, although technically, he too was a Dragon Reborn, and then should succumb to hearing the voice of the previous Dragon, hence why Rand can't hear it.<br /><br />Good theory<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> Vaguely Remembered <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-11-03 08:27:16
subject: <b>like this very much</b>
body:
and I'm convinced. I particularly like Gaerans addition, tho I never have heard that the antichrist is called the Red Dragon.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Fortune rides like the sun on high <br />with the fox that makes the ravens fly. <br />Luck his soul, lightning his eye, <br />He snatches the moons from out of the sky.</font><p></p>


created: 2008-10-27 04:39:01
subject: <b>hey DUH</b>
body:
Of course Mazrim Taim has fought off the taint for quite a while: He's Demandred!!!! not just some ordinary Darkfriend. correct me If I'm wrong, but I was under the impression that this was a widely accepted theory.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">rebel_ashaman   <br /><br />We rose on the winds of the rising storm<br />We ran to the sound of thunder<br />We danced amoung the lightning bolts<br />And tore the world asunder<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-28 18:08:11
subject: <b>The Bible</b>
body:
I remember some line in the Bible about the Dragon(Rand)who hunt a women with ``moons on her head and star under her feet&#180;&#180;(Lanfear anywon?).


created: 2001-12-21 16:12:22
subject: <b>no duh! tam</b>
body:
nobody had noticed that! you must have really good memory.<br />Shutup rasarai! You...YOU, JORDAN!!!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Hi! I'm a signature virus! Copy me to your signature, and help me spread!</font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-15 10:49:28
subject: <b>Not Birgitte...</b>
body:
Birgitte can't be compared to any of the Greek gods. Lanfear can. The Greek gods ould never die, never feel pain, never had to worry about anything! They were cowards and could never do anything brave since it brought no risk upon themselves. The chosen are similair in a few ways. <br />1: They don't actually die UNLESS balefired<br />2: They can hide away for as long as they want<br />3: They use people for anything and everything like the Greek gods did. <br /><br />The reason why Birgitte couldn't be symbolic of a Greek goddess is because she can give her life for someone and is willing to do so for Elayne. Greek mythology is the one I don't see as having ANY impact on WoT at all. Interesting onnection with Selene though.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">bluestarchic<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" />Executive Producer for Barbaric Films. Oh yeah baby!<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" />Hmm, I'm kind of hungry... This dancing banana looks pretty good<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smackhead.gif" border="0" />Dain Bramaged<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tinfoilhat.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-04-27 03:17:01
subject: <b>A good observation.</b>
body:
Both characters, Birgitte and Lanfear, do Indeed display qualities of the Greco-roman Moon goddess, Artemis/Diana/Selene/Cynthia.<br />Birgitte most noticibly carries the Silver Bow and Arrows, which were drawn from the vision of the Crescent moon. Also, when we first meet her character in TAR, she reveals herself to Perrin, helping him hunt for Slayer.  Artemis was a huntress, and with her Nymph Handmaidens she would roam the forests at night, and was often reffered to as the Maiden of the Hunt. Birgitte's golden hair also matches the description of the greek goddess.<br />Lanfer matches the darker aspects of The greek lunar goddess. She is always clad in white and silver, two colors always associated with the moon and moonlight.  she adopted the pseudonym 'Selene' for herself in TGH, and up until TFoH, she also was the hunter, in a figurative sense, although her prey was Rand. However, once Rand scorned her and her advances she becomes wrathful and deadly.  Artemis too, had a dark side.  once, a Shepherd accidentally saw her naked as she bathed in a pond, in anger she blinded the man and then tormented him with countless other afflictions.  <br /><br />The only part of these characters though, that does not concur with the similarity is Artemis' Role in the Greek pantheon as one of the 3 &quot;Virgin Goddesses&quot; along with Hestia, also called Vesta, and Athena, none of these goddesses ever took a lover or married or bore children.  <br />that just doesn't mesh with Birgitte's ready eye and her commitment to Gaidal Cain, and Lanfear's obsession with Lews Therin/Rand.


created: 2001-06-20 02:30:07
subject: <b>Possible, but very unlikely</b>
body:
Remember, the Dark One's power and Shadar Logoth's evil do NOT like each other, as seen in Rand's wound (where they are KILLING EACH OTHER!) and such.  Since Fain is already filled to bursting with the SL evil, if he used the True Power, which is DO through and through, it would probably tear him apart from the inside.     <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" />  And I don't think RJ would let that happen.  Not even to Fain.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/frown.gif" border="0" />    (although he does deserve it.)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ph34r!</font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-17 10:41:03
subject: <b>...</b>
body:
Also if Fain was Nae'blis whoevers holding Slayer's leash wouldn't have him actively trying to kill him.. Would be kinda suicidal <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-01-03 15:42:22
subject: <b>why was this posted?!?</b>
body:
moridin channels the TRUE POWER.  MORIDIN...NOT FAIN.  only the nae'blis can channel the TP and moridin does that.  end of story.<br /><br />sincerely,<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />the lover of light and wisdom<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" />the all-seeing eye<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />the wandering wotmaniac<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-27 05:45:00
subject: <b>I don't think so</b>
body:
We learn in tSR that Luc/Isam is sent to kill Fain.  We also know that Luc/Isam is a very powerful darkfriend.  I think your theory of Fain being Nae'blis is a little far fetched.


created: 2002-06-10 16:45:12
subject: <b>more proof</b>
body:
luc/isam says &quot;at first we brought only enough trollocs to scourge this town and to kill that blasted renegade, the shadow take him, he seems to have the great lords own luck&quot; or some such. the renegade is fain as is proved when you learn about the gray man he kills in the whitecloak camp.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br />&quot;wash the spears- who fears to die?&quot;<br />&quot;wash the spears- no one i know&quot;<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /> <br />the aiel are coming...<br /><br />


created: 2002-07-13 17:13:15
subject: <b>No Way</b>
body:
There is no way that Fain is Nae'blis.  For many reasons: the other shadowspawn fear him because he is a different evil and hates the Shadow.  He hates the Shadow just as much as Rand and the group.  He also isn't trustworthy enough for the DO to name Nae'blis.  Moridin is definately the Nae'blis because who else would the DO let hold the TP as often as Moridin does.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">egwene03</font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-06 20:44:40
subject: <b>Moridin is Nae'Blis</b>
body:
In Winter's Heart I think, although it might have been Path of Daggers, Cyndane and Moghedien come to Graendal to tell her to submit to Moridin because he is the Nae'Blis. Graendal doesn't believe at first, but then Shaidar Haran shows up and reinforces the point.


created: 2003-05-22 13:47:47
subject: <b>serious points of error</b>
body:
A) I see you show nothing but supposition and no eveidence really whatsoever for this. I don't think snyone is anmed nae`blis. It's the carrot dangled in front of the mule so to speak. But Fain? come on man. Fain hates the DO with a Passionfor what happened to himat SG. He takes the shadowspan and darkfriends he's given in TGH and makes them his by maknig themf ear him, similair to what he does to the white cloaks in the two rivers. Further, fain is also now obviously part reincarnated Mordeth, which is an evil shadowspan fear. Whty would shadowspawn fear something that served the dark one? Well oaky, obvuious answers. Still, it doesn't add up at all!


created: 2003-07-15 21:49:42
subject: <b>Um, ok</b>
body:
Ok, great theory, except for the fact that Fain hates the DO.  He wants no more to do with him beyond killing Rand.  Why would hte DO name someone who hated him Nae'Blis<br />?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Life is not tried it is merely survived if  you're standing outside the fire.&quot;<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> Kwestfall06 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-07 13:29:50
subject: <b>Fain is NOT Nae'blis</b>
body:
Fain cannot be Nae'blis because he is regarded as a third side throughout the series in the &quot;celestial fight&quot; (Creator Vs DO). A more likely candidate would be Shaidar Haran. After all the Nae'blis would stand under only the DO himself and Shaidar Haran can use the True Power. But i agree with you about the subterfuge of using a figurehead.


created: 2004-03-09 17:40:24
subject: <b>to black conde</b>
body:
Shaidar Haran is not Nae'blis because he is the &quot;Hand of the Dark,&quot; which is I'm pretty sure the closest thing to actually being the DO that is free. Why would the DO need to name himself Nae'blis?<br /><br />oh yeah and isam doesn't kind of sound like awesome for no reason <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" />


created: 2007-11-18 00:24:58
subject: <b>One thing...</b>
body:
One thing I've noticed in this series, is that there are serious repercussions for pretending to be something you're not, The Aes Sedai punish those who even channel. I don't think Moridin would be allowed to go around claiming to be the Nae'blis without being punished by the Dark One. As far as we've seen, Moridin has gained strength lately, instead of losing it.


created: 2001-06-24 12:34:02
subject: <b>hmmm....</b>
body:
Its been stated many times that if the DO wins TG then everything goes byebye, so I'm not sure about that being just a threat.  But I do agree that the whole thing is a lot more subtle than just Rand vs. Dark One.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Efreet<br /><br />Extropian<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> Incurable Optomist <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" />Mainah<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" />Almighty ONSEC of MITSFS<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />Lover of Squaresoft, Manga, and Strategy Games<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/blush.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br />&quot;Liberate Natural Courgarness&quot;<br /><br />&quot;Reality is what you can get away with&quot;<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-06 13:01:41
subject: <b>Good theory, but....</b>
body:
That is a very interesting theory, and I think that it is at least part of TG, but I think that it is also obvious that there is more to it. What about the rumors of Trollocs amassing in the blight, and what of the endless attempts at Rand's death (such as the gray men)? You could say that because the DO is the lord of the grave, he could then corrupt Rand after his death, but then that doesn't figure in with the Forsaken helping him. Why would they help him in order to turn him to the DO if they could just kill him and then have an easier time of it?<br /><br />There's one other thing, too. Namely, what of the fact that Rand, Mat and Perrin are all ta'veren? I'm not quite sure where I'm going with this, but it seems like that would have to fit in someplace, right? We know that for Rand, it's because he's the Dragon, but what of Perrin and Mat? I mean, why make Mat the reincarnation of so many great generals and fighting men if he's not going to fight in a real war--namely Tarmon Gaidon? And what about Perrin? I'm not sure what this all means, but I'm pretty convinced that it means that TG ig going to be more than only the fisher thread. Any thoughts?<br /><br />                                    ZJ<br />--Walk on...<br />     -U2<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Regardless of whether the glass is 'half full' or 'half empty,' half of it is definitely in my tummy--and if I'm lucky, it's beer.&quot;<br />-A Very Wise Man</font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-12 05:10:34
subject: <b>skywalker</b>
body:
This sounds too much like the finale of the Return of the Jedi in which the dark emperor is trying to turn Luke to the dark side. I am sure RJ will come up with something more original


created: 2002-10-06 09:07:24
subject: <b>Wow</b>
body:
What an incredible theory. I think you may have, on some level, figured out RJs big secret. However that cannot be all there is to it. Alot is going to happen and it's not just going to be about Rand staying &quot;on the side of good&quot;. Certainly without him the world is doomed but things are going to reach beyond a simple &quot;i stay true to the creator&quot; from rand.


created: 2002-11-19 14:40:12
subject: <b>TG may center around Rand's choice...</b>
body:
...and my bet is that the choice will be made very difficult for Rand, likely choosing between Breaking the World or turning to the Dark One.<br /><br />This is simply a thought that is an extension of this wonderful theory.<br /><br />I can imagine a situation where Rand will make a choice to go over to the Dark One, thereby saving the world from another Breaking (described as something that was nearly unrecoverable), or once again staying true to the Light (and everyone 'weeping for their salvation').  I am not so sure that he will be willing to kill his wives, as would be likely if he chose Light (remember Ilyena and that he cannot bear the fact that he has killed women).<br /><br />After much action and great battles and buildup, I bet that TG will come down to this choice alone, which only Rand can make.  <br /><br />I am willing to bet money that Ishmael the philosopher will be there talking into his ear too...


created: 2002-12-10 19:15:28
subject: <b>Identical to my theory !</b>
body:
I think that the DO has always used the line that This age is diff't from all others, as a threat more than anything.  in The Great Hunt, the Ba'alzamon himself that he will turn the Dragon in this age, or the next implying that there will be another shot, regardless of what happens.<br /><br />and yes, i believe that Rand will die(sheathing the sword) to avert being turned by the DO


created: 2002-12-22 21:26:33
subject: <b>What about....</b>
body:
... Rand's wives standing over someone's funeral pyre (Rand's), and Nynaeve not being happy until she heals somebody three days dead. I thought these were clues to some form of deception on our heros part e.g. Nynaeve discovers she can heal the dead, and Rand works out that the only way to seal the bore at TG is for him to die in the process, and the cliffhanger being that we will never know whether Nynaeve revived him....<br /><br />


created: 2005-02-04 19:37:43
subject: <b>very, VERY good</b>
body:
im very impressed, and it does make sense that<br />            Dark one  =  creator<br />and their &quot;champions&quot; so to speak, who are inside the wheel:<br />    Betrayor of hope  =  Dragon (which, by the way, makes me think even more nae'blis will stay moridin/ishmael/betrayerofhope...)<br /><br />again, AWESOME theory<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">-Sabin<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-02-06 06:20:10
subject: <b>No battle?</b>
body:
are you saying rand won't battle the DO at SG?? that would be lame... <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/frown.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perplexed.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smackhead.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /> LLT <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-04-14 00:00:00
subject: <b>Question</b>
body:
I have read these books till the covers fall off (literally) and never have I seen where morgase was raped and tortured by valda.... he wanted to, but never did....


created: 2001-05-31 14:42:53
subject: <b>She WAS 'abused'</b>
body:
Robert Jordan does an excellent job of hinting at things.  The very first time I read through the books I noticed that Moridin raped Moghiedian on at least one occasion, but have been unable to find the exact quote when I read the series three more times.  Remember before Morgase was rescued from Amadicia when she was lying on her bed in a thick nightgown and flinched whenever anyone came near or looked like they were going to touch her.  There are a couple subtle hints in the text that she was raped as well (by Valda himself, I believe), but the way she's acting seems like the way someone would think after they had been raped as well.  Valda sucks.


created: 2001-06-01 10:44:43
subject: <b>Galad will kill Eamon Valda</b>
body:
Valda didn't technically rape Morgase. Her lament is over saying 'yes' to him. And I think that Galad was part of the hold he had over her to convince her to say yes. She tries to brush off Breanne coming to bring her tea, still feeling the shame, and then asks if any of the men know. (That Valda took her to bed) Breanne tells her that she and Lini have draped linen over the mens eyes, or some such. They both know that if Tallanvor, Gill, or Lamgwin learned that Valda had taken advantage of Morgase that they would have died trying to avenge her honor.<br /><br />I still think that Galad's Whitecloak division will be found by Perrin's group while hunting the Shaido who have Faile, Morgase and Alliandre. Master spy Balwer will have some part at this point, for while he is now wary of Whitecloaks, he will trust Galad, knowing all that he knows. I see him informing Galad that Morgase yet lives, and convinces him to join Perrin's forces to save his step-mother. Balwer will also have let Valda's treatment of Morgase slip, and Galad will slay Valda. I could only hope he'd kill Asunawa too, but there's not a good enough reason to suit Galad. Yet.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> Call me Tim <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-11 02:30:24
subject:
<b>probably should be a theory <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /></b>

body:
I don't know if im the only one and at the moment i don't really have time to get my books and write a long complicated post but I believe (either Elayne or Rand)is going to destroy the Hand of the Light which is the core of the Children of the Light. And without the absolute power of the inquisitors over thier head the whitecloaks can be led by common sense instead of fear.  I think that Rand or Elayne is going to do it because of the dream or vision where one of them is associated with a bloody hand and a hot poker.  And to respond to the other posts Valdas behavior would be called date rape(if it was a date)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where did these Skimmers come from?  I mean if they didn't want to read the book they could have just Traveled to another author.  Why risk arriving at the wrong destination?  Why risk falling into darkness?</font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-18 01:12:25
subject: <b>When Galad turns</b>
body:
I believe that Rand shall approach Galad. What will ensue will be a sword fight between these two masters.<br />As they fight Rand shall tell him that he is his half brother, rather Star-Warsish. Rand will have an opporturnity to kill Galad, which he uses for a chance to move back &amp; tell him all this. He shall also tell Galad about Morgase &amp; Valda (by this time Perrin found out about her &amp; was reunited with Rand)<br /><br />This shall lead Galad to takeover the Whitecloaks in a triumphant manner &amp; bring them together with Rand's armies.


created: 2001-11-29 03:03:35
subject: <b>thom</b>
body:
i feel that thom will have a part in perrin finding out who morgase is and then they meet up with galad. i know its probably full of ifs and ums but i feel im rite<br />


created: 2001-12-31 22:11:14
subject: <b>Yes...</b>
body:
I believe you're right.. Probally Galad will be Rands sought after General (Bashere is alright but Galad seems to be the obvious choice for a General.) After all, wouldn't it be a sight if the remaining Whitecloaks (under Galads Command) become the core of the Dragon Army, fighting beside those hardcore Aiel??


created: 2002-03-04 15:03:44
subject: <b>*snickers*</b>
body:
Aes Sedai, Asha'man, spears, Wise Ones, wolves, Whitecloaks, The Band, other soldiers, Seanchan, Kin... whoever the heck else is out there that I might be forgetting... I'm going to laugh SO hard when they all show up to fight together at TG.  It's just going to be a hilarious picture in my mind.  I love it.  *laughs her head off and wanders away*<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Catriona</b>, Countess of Options<br /> Still searching for that one great love...<br /><font color="gray"><i>Hunter</i></font><br />Eternal Wotmaniad Fangirl<br />But now you're cooler than Mr. T. - OA  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><font color="orange"><i>For Kory and Joe:</i></font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-04 15:08:22
subject: <b>On a more serious note</b>
body:
She did say yes, but that 'yes' was tortured out of her.  She thought that she MIGHT have consented if simply asked, but she wasn't.  I say the tortured yes still makes it count as rape.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Catriona</b>, Countess of Options<br /> Still searching for that one great love...<br /><font color="gray"><i>Hunter</i></font><br />Eternal Wotmaniad Fangirl<br />But now you're cooler than Mr. T. - OA  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><font color="orange"><i>For Kory and Joe:</i></font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-01 19:22:42
subject: <b>Could it be more obvious????</b>
body:
You barely need to read into it for the rape to be plainly obvious.  Valda told Morgase she had to either bed him or face Asunawa's knotted cords and needles again.  When thinking to herself she outlines that she didn't think she could bed Valda in could blood, but had she, she could have lived with it.<br /><br />Now, Morgase did &quot;choose&quot; (and I use that loosly) dirty Valdas bed over the tourcher, but there was just a little bit of duress there.  Even if she did say &quot;Yes&quot; to the &quot;Offer&quot;, forcing a woman into sex to avoid torcher is still rape.<br /><br />Read for yourself - CoS P.539 - Paperback - <br /><i>Cowardice. Outrage welled up in Morgase, yet no words came. Her fingers <br />knotted in the sheet. She did not think that she could have decided in cold <br />blood to lie with Valda, but had she, she could have lived with it. She thought <br />she could. Another matter entirely to say yes because she feared facing <br />Asunawa's knotted cords and needles again, feared worse that he would have <br />gotten to eventually. However she had screamed under Asunawa's ministrations, <br />Valda was the one who had showed her the true borders of her courage, so far <br />short of where she had believed. Valda's touch, his bed, could be forgotten, <br />with time, but she would never be able to wash the shame of that &quot;yes&quot; from her <br />lips.</i>


created: 2002-09-10 16:55:36
subject: <b>Only Rand knows</b>
body:
Rand is the only character that knows of his relationship to Galad.  It's possible that some of the Forsaken might know, or some of the AS (Verin, Moiraine, Cadsuane), but we can only speculate.<br /><br />I find it amusing that a significant piece of information was actually figured out by RAND and that he didn't tell anybody.  Normally everyone around Rand finds out stuff and don't bother to tell him.<br /><br />I keep hoping that Rand will find out how much his supposed friends and allies have been holding out on him and go on a wild killing spree.  Really... sometimes it seems like Mazrim Taim is the most loyal subject he's got...<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Veteran of the Butcher's Yard <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Remember Eben Hopwil <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-07 21:58:53
subject: <b>Galad and Rand</b>
body:
Isn't it just possible that Galad was old enough when Tigraine left that he remembers what she looked like?  Or at the very least, he has seen portraits of his mother.<br /><br />I think he's going to take one look at Rand and see the resemblance to their mother.  Where it goes from there is anyone's guess.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /> Nil Illegitimi Carborundrum <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> &quot;Mind Candy.  It's what's for dinner.&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-14 02:19:21
subject: <b>OF COURSE RAND WILL TELL GALAD</b>
body:
And on the Morgase, Galad, Valda subplot; Bawler is the key. He knows all and his loyalty is shifting to Perrin. I can't wait to see who kills Valda (He's a blademaster you know). I'd love to see a fight between Perrins elite crew and the white cloaks. Aram, Perrin, Gaul and Elyas on one side. Galad, Valda, Bornhold and Byar on the other. It will be cool. I'd like to see any of Perrin's crew beat up Galad and those other three bastard whitecloaks turned into mince meat.


created: 2003-11-13 07:28:21
subject: <b>They have meet before atleast.</b>
body:
Didn't Rand and Galad meet at some time? In the palace in Camelyn?<br /><br />I think it was after Rand climbed that castlewall?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">You were just taking a basic personality test, and you chose to matched against men. After some serious number crunching, the personality test determined that you are most like Logain.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-14 16:48:43
subject: <b>Nynaeve in her testing noticed something like that</b>
body:
through the first ring of her accepted test Nynaeve reported that she could feel the miniscule particles of Power in the Maze where she fought Aginor.  She also seemed to be able to sense Saidin but neither thing was ever really explained<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where did these Skimmers come from?  I mean if they didn't want to read the book they could have just Traveled to another author.  Why risk arriving at the wrong destination?  Why risk falling into darkness?</font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-30 17:11:04
subject: <b>I know the answer!!!</b>
body:
You see the one power is exac...Hey, Get out.  I just over heard the creator.  it's not my fault.  <br /><br />Excuse me.  this is the OP police.  this never happened.  you never saw this message.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" />you don't have to rub it in, ok<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" />My thoughts are not my own<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bela.gif" border="0" /> BELA IS MY MASTER <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bela.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-03-20 00:00:00
subject: <b>Exact Quote</b>
body:
I agree with Tim.  Binding the South and West is about someone else, not Rand.  From the Prophecies of the Dragon:<p>>The north shall he tie to the east, <br />>and the west shall be bound to the south. </p><p>This implies that the Dragon will tie the North and East together, but someone else will tie the West and South together.  </p><p>aerocontrols<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Well I'm in business, the business of kicking your a$$, and let me tell you...business is boomin'. I'm open for business, the business of givin' you the business...<br /><br /><br />Soylent Green is my kind of people.</font></p><p><a href="http://tinyurl.com/49wv8t" target="_blank">Click to see my webcam!</a></p><p></p>


created: 2001-03-22 00:00:00
subject: <b>Mat and the Daughter</b>
body:
Your theory ties evereything up into a nice package.  My question is this: What happens when the Seanchan meet up with the Band of the Red Hand?  I don't see any way that the two could keep from fighting each other.  This creates a problem, as which side would Mat take?


created: 2001-05-05 00:00:00
subject: <b>Mat and the Seanchan</b>
body:
Yes, yes, yes!<br />Won't the Saenchan also be on Rand's "side" when the last battle hits?  Will that not be Mat & Tuon"s function...to draw them to Rand?  Yes the damane secret will be part of it, yes Mat's leadership ability will be part of it, yes, the fireworks/gunpowder will be there too...But Rand can't fight DO and Saenchan at the same time!  Perhaps the Saenchan get "broken" like the Aeil when the secret comes out, and they rally around Mat/Tuon.<br />Don't worry about the band.  They are ultimately loyal to Mat & will follow as he wishes whether he tells them to or not.


created: 2001-06-03 05:59:49
subject: <b>Comment on a Comment</b>
body:
I think that seanchan prophecies are partially corrupted, seeing as the original prophecies were written before Luthair took his army across the ocean.  It was just a way to control the empire of seanchan.  Theey seem to enjoy deluding themselves.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where did these Skimmers come from?  I mean if they didn't want to read the book they could have just Traveled to another author.  Why risk arriving at the wrong destination?  Why risk falling into darkness?</font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-04 10:28:54
subject: <b>Dreams, prophecies, and plans</b>
body:
One of Egwene's early dreams about Rand is that he will bind the nine moons to serve him. That fairly well settles that the Seanchan will fight for the Dragon come TG. The question will be how it gets that way.<br /><br />I really like the depth of the original post on this. I would like to point out that Renna and Seta are sul'dam, not damane, the three Aes Sedai damane are Teslyn, Joline and Edesina.<br /><br />I agree with Onarishma that the Seanchan prophecies are bogus. If the Paendrag family who went across the Aryth Ocean took copies of the prophecies with them, and there is no indication of their descendants ruling the future world, it is natural for an Imperial family to rewrite those prophecies so that they win. I mean, if you sat on the Crystal Throne, you'd want to believe that everyone is going to bow down to you, too. Well, that don't make it so, eh?<br /><br />About the Band of the Red Hand, I'm not so sure Mat is going to be returning to them real soon. In fact, there's as much chance of them meeting up with and joining Perrin at this point, with the direction that Perrin's group is chasing the Shaido. Just imagine an army flying the Red Wolf, the Red Eagle, and the Red Hand all at once.<br /><br />Last comment, I like how Bayle Domon keeps popping up just when things are going in the dumper. Immediately after Mat finds out he doesn't have a sul'dam for each of his damane, along comes Domon and Egeanin.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> Call me Tim <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-20 00:30:29
subject: <b>Speaking of laughing aloud....</b>
body:
Mention of Juilin and Thera, and of laughing out loud, made me remember something... When Juilin's &quot;pretty&quot; was identified as Thera, I laughed out loud. I haven't seen it mentioned anywhere, but does Thera ring a bell?<br /><br />[ACoS: The Irrevocable Words, page 555]<br /><br />Thera froze in her up-stretched posture, quivering, shooting a look half panic, half terror at sharp-faced Alwhin, a look of pure terror at Suroth. &quot;Thera was called Amathera, if it pleases the High Lady,&quot; she said breathily. &quot;Thera was the Panarch of Tarabon, if it pleases the High Lady.&quot;<br /><br />[/ACoS: The Irrevocable Words, page 555]<br /><br />Not really a comment on the theory, just a thought that struck me as I was reading it. Could shed some light on the somewhat cryptic definition of Juilin in the glossary, though <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />[Glossary: Juilin Sandar]<br /><br />Juilin Sandar (JUY-Iihn sahn-DAHR): A thief-catcher from Tear. A man in love with perhaps the very last woman he would ever have thought he could be.<br /><br />[/Glossary: Juilin Sandar]<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" /> C. F. Bishop <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-07-08 14:03:39
subject: <b>Seanchan..Legion of the Dragon...Band of the Red Hand</b>
body:
I think its about bloody time Mat got to meet his Daughter of the Nine  Moons. i just feel bad for him that he had to marry a bald-noblest-of-noble girls.<br /><br /><br />I was thinkin about how The Ever Victorious Army had a real pain in the ass fighting the Legion of the Dragon. And its understandable, since the Legion is almost a modern-day army, in the sense that they dont come out in the open, and they fire projectiles. I think Mat, when he has some power in the Seanchan, will re-work their army's structure. Giving the raken little fire-works bombs to drop on the enemy, and prolly using those big-Mammoth-type things to drag his cannons around. <br /><br />I was also thinkin about how Mat is prolly going to gain control of the Seekers. A Marriage between High, High Blood and a commoner of someone who swore the oaths, probably wouldnt be accepted. But, if Tuon can convince everyone that Mat is a high-ranking Seeker ( with his spear ), then maybe the marriage will be allowed, and Mat might also gain some cool Husband-To-The-Empress kind of stuff. <br /><br /><br />On another Note, in the original theory, ...the dude who wrote it said something like &quot; its about time one of the Finn's propecies came true &quot;.....But.....One of them already has....if not the other one. The only one's i rememeber are &quot; to die and live again &quot;, and &quot; to marry the daughter of the nine moons &quot;. Now, Mat has died and lived again twice. He died hanging from the Tree in Rhuridean, plus he died in the DragonAttack on Andor/Rahvin. He got brought back with Rand's balefire....<br /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" /> Knave <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" /><br />Master of the Editors<br />Perviest of the Pervs<br />Slave to the World<br /><br /><br /><br />time to roll the dice


created: 2001-07-23 11:52:40
subject: <b>Exact quote...</b>
body:
Raseri said...<br />&quot;and he shall bind the north to the east, and the south to the west.&quot; (not exact quote, but close enough)<br /><br />Umm, in this case, I think the exact quote is important, coz it goes... (afaik)<br /><br />&quot;he shall bind the north to the east, and the south shall be bound to the west.&quot;<br /><br />Important, because it does _not_ say that Rand will control all of Randland. Most likely, he will end up controlling the north and eastern parts, and the Seanchan will get the rest. Make sense?


created: 2001-08-06 22:35:31
subject: <b>Raserei</b>
body:
kudos to the hair thing. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br />And knave, they are called Elephants.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ph34r!</font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-16 11:40:48
subject: <b>Just something this theory made me think of.</b>
body:
Maybe Matt(I believe he will be absorbed into the seachan community) will be the focal point for a change where damne and suldam are sent to the tower instead of leashed and to replace the firepower for the army he introduces the seachan to gunpowder.<br /><br />Going against custom could even be the reason he loses his eye, maybe in a duel or something, also this could be where he gives up half the light of the world(dooming the world with the invention of gunpowder) to save the world.  <br /><br />No facts to back this up, just something that popped into my head after reading this theory.<br /><br /><br />


created: 2001-12-13 16:33:45
subject: <b>Tai-Shar Manetheren</b>
body:
I agree with everything except Mat being the new Commander<br />of the Seanchan army. &quot;Seanchan, Mat don't need no stinkin<br />Seanchan!&quot; He already has thousands of guys who will follow him to the death in the Band. More important, he is still tied to the Horn of Valere. That thing that kicked some serious Seanchan butt at Falme. I think he will reunite <br />with the Band. The Seanchan will be there with Rand at TG<br />through TDotNM.


created: 2002-01-09 23:27:31
subject: <b>too much and not enough room in three books.....</b>
body:
for much of the above responses and part of this theory/thread .... its just too much ... too bloody much for RJ to fit into three books with the Last Battle and who knows what else. why? Mat doesn't have the time to become a leader of the Seanchan. He's presently escaping. When have his plans ever fallen short?<br /><br />Heres my storyboard prediction:<br /><br />Mat runs North to Tar Valon to catch up with the Band, escape the Seanchan with Tuon (which should be eventful), and to find Aes Sedai refuge with Egwene for the two sul'dams and Tesy and the other. While he's headed that way, Egwene has fought a bloody Power-war against Elaida and retaken a now nearly-destroyed white tower. Logain, in the absense of Rand, has taken control of the ash'aman in a similarly Power-war and destroyed the Black Tower and ousted Taim. Thus when Cadsuane shows up at the WT with coma-Rand, Logain begins talking with Egwene. Mat shows up with Tuon, followed by 'rows of Seanchan' fighting the White Tower, which at this point is going to beat unless Logain moves in the ash'aman .... Hence an 'unstained' tower under a 'forgotten sign' of AES SEDAI as it was first established sweep the series and 'bow knee' to Rand when he wakes up. THEN when Tuon (whos role I can't begin to guess), concedes to Rand .... which is THE first prophecy about tDotNM. (when Moiraine tells Perrin about random Dragon prophecies, &quot;he will bind the nine moons to him&quot;.<br /><br />Somewhere in there you'll find Mat's balance scales, which may be the male/female reunion of Aes Sedai in the tower. He also has to save Moiraine by losing his eye. I agree that losing his eye is a clever reality of 'giving up half the light of the world' ... but how does saving Moiraine result in 'saving the world'? The only prophecy including any saving of any world is to be done by Rand. Hence I believe Mat will save Rand in some measure.<br /><br />AND whoever said Mat will betray Rand ... I don't think so. I think that Mat might have to make some decision between Tuon and Rand, and this will be the 'i will never betray you' allusion.


created: 2002-01-14 02:16:55
subject: <b>Other possibilities</b>
body:
First I think that Mat and Tuon already fell in love.  Mat just doesn't know it yet.  Maybe the shaved head thing is kinky for him so you don't need to keep complaining about it.<br />Mostly I think that when Tuon learns about the problems of Sul'dam something drastic is going to happen.  Like a revolution, with the end result of her being Empress (then Rand can kneel to her without being drug across the ocean) and channelling.  But I suppose we're going to have to wait a few more months until RJ releases the next book and then all of this speculating will have gone to waste, since most of it is wrong.


created: 2002-04-27 02:52:31
subject: <b>time</b>
body:
I like your ideas about Mat finally finding his importance after Rand and Perrin.  You state that it took 9 books, but remember that less than 2 years have passed in those books.  (For Pete's sake RJ, even Wagner only took 4 operas to tell the story in the Ring)


created: 2002-04-30 07:27:24
subject: <b>It will save the world...</b>
body:
Saving Moiraine does count as saving the world - what about Min's viewing - 'Rand would almost certainly fail without a woman who was dead and gone'? And when she thinks Moiraine was the only viewing of hers that had ever failed, probably refering to the same viewing (in my opinion...) She must have some important role, so by giving up his eye to save Moiraine that fills Mat's prophecy. Whoo-hoo! Imagine the coolness of Mat complete with hat, spear, medallion, bald wife and eye-patch...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /> Aes Sedai of the Green and Mat fan! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-29 10:47:55
subject: <b>Tamlin.....</b>
body:
Correct me if I'm wrong but Mat is no longer tied to the Horn, as he &quot;died and lived again&quot;...<br /><br />Isn't this the general consensus...that either in Rhuidean or Andor Mat's connection to it was severed?<br /><br />Just wanted to get other's responses to this to clear it up for myself also...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="white">Do NOT highlight this space...</font><b><font color="#FF99FF"><i>P</i></font><font color="#006699"> Floyd</font></b><font color="white">...or you'll be in trouble!</font><br /><br /><font color="white">............</font><i>'You're a pacifist with a gun, Eileen.'</i> - Sam Roberts</font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-09 23:42:22
subject: <b>Many Thanks!</b>
body:
I'd like to thank the Academy---ohh, urrm, uhh---I'd like to thank everyone that made comments on my post.  It's been so long since I wrote it, but it's nice to see that it has had some &quot;shelf life&quot; to it.  Now that Crossroads of Twilight is emminent, I've learned that Mat will be running from both the Seanchan and the Shadow...so it looks like my whole &quot;Seanchan General&quot; theory won't happen (at least not in the next book or two, hehe).<br />One thing is for sure---I can't wait for the Tuon/Mat first kiss scene!  ***She'd better have at least stubble on her head by then!!***<br />Thanks Again,<br />(ex-Tim al'Rook,<br />but most just call me} Tim <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bela.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-06-10 00:17:45
subject: <b>Mat, Moiraine, and Horns (Ohh, My!)</b>
body:
As for the last two posts:<br /><br />Annis Sedai, I think you're right.  Mat will have some connection to saving Moiraine.  He wants to get revenge from the foxes and snakes.<br />    He can't enter their worlds through a doorway again (a person can only go through once...and Matrim has gone through both doorways), but I speculate that the &quot;Tower of Genji&quot; is somehow involved. {The Tower is something Hopper pointed out to Perrin many, many books ago...other theories within Wotmania go into that, so I won't.)<br />   I want [and I never thought I'd say it!!!] Moiraine back!!<br /><br />Mat and the Horn:  is there still a connection?<br /><br />Hmm, good question.  I believe so, and I'll explain why, but I'd also think it very funny if the connection really was severed, but noone had tried the Horn of Valere (believing that Mat could be the only one)...and Mat ends up sounding it anyway.<br /><br />I don't think his connection to the Horn is severed.  He has, in my opinion, fulfilled the fox/snake prophecy to die and live again...but he's Ta'veren, that special little variable that makes him unique from the rest of the world (but two others).<br /><br />  Rand resuscitated Mat...and sure, I think Mat was &quot;dead&quot; in a sense....but do we, in modern times now, think of someone that is saved by CPR as dead, then brought back?...I wouldn't have really thought that way, without having some theological discussion about the severing of the &quot;spirit&quot; or some such thing.<br />  Sure, Mat was dead...hehe...but not Fully Dead.  (But it would be funny if he's not connected to it, but still believes that he is.)


created: 2002-07-13 11:45:55
subject:
<b>Seanchan Prophecies of the Dragon... <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rand.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></b>

body:
I was pretty sure that Rand would never kneel before the Crystal Throne, because that would kind of bind him to someone and the whole ta'veren thing is a bit &quot;wild&quot; shall we say? <br />Anyway, it would take AGES to ship him over the Aryth Ocean (unless the throne got transported over here that is), and I can't see that happening, personally. <br />Also, I thought that Luthair Paendrag might have made that up when he became Emperor to, I dunno, solidify his family's power? Sort of a &quot;you'll never beat me coz the Dragon Reborn will bow before me&quot; kind of thing. <br />People over here have never heard that part of the Karaethon Cycle anyway, and I think it might be a bit better over here than the stupid stuff the Seanchan use anyway!<br /><br />Wise 1 Kat <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /><br />The All-Knowing...you know, Wise One?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Wise1Kat  <br />Wise one of...um...many things... <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tinfoilhat.gif" border="0" /> <br />BLACKBURN! BLACKBURN!<br />Burn! BUUUUUUURN! Mwah ha ha ha ha... <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <br />Go away Satan, I've got a headache tonight!</font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-27 19:30:20
subject: <b>Mat and Semrihage</b>
body:
I find the theory that Mat battles with Semrihage to be interesting. We all know the gruesome details about how Semrihage likes to use the power. She uses it *directly* on the victim. Of course, we also know that Mat is protected from direct uses of the power. Thus, he would have a moment to gain the upper hand on her.


created: 2002-09-17 01:06:22
subject: <b>seanchan prophecies, mat's eye</b>
body:
I think Ishamael may have written those Seanchan prophecies when he was with Hawkwing.  It'd be a great idea for him to do it.<br /><br />As for Mat's eye... maybe he'll just shoot it out looking down the barrel of a makeshift gun when he's working out gunpowder. heh heh... kidding... the viewing with the balance scale implies he will knowingly weigh the value of his eye against something.


created: 2003-06-10 19:50:50
subject: <b>Mat and Seanchan.</b>
body:
I think the theory works out, although i more see it as something where Mat gets back to the BotRH, he and Tuon (Sinead O'Connor Reborn <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />) fall into a love/hate relationship.  he proves the Sul'dam channeling, the Seanchan catch up, they bend knee to Tuon, who's now hopelessly in love with her &quot;duckling&quot;.  Thus Mat gets the Seanchan Army.<br /><br />&lt;aside&gt; Speaking of the Seanchan...I believe it was in wither WH or PoD, they described the Seanchan Haircut...short up top, long in the back...<br /><br />If that was the case, then all Rand needs to to do bring the Seanchan to heel is play a bunch of Ratt, Stryper, Winger, Warrant, Krokus, Dokken, etc.  Since when is a Mullet able to resist that? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />&lt;---pictures a very disturbing image of Thom Merrilin performing &quot;Round and Round&quot;<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">When Day and Dream unite the end is near...<br />...you better be prepared.<br /><br />~Blind Guardian</font><p></p>


created: 2001-04-06 00:00:00
subject: <b>Not much of a theory</b>
body:
Thank you for telling the facts, now get on with the theory.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I'm not dead yet<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-14 19:02:49
subject: <b>Whaaaaaaaaaaaattttt!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1</b>
body:
Ok i agree with the theory how can anyone not that is what i mean by the title. Did anyone notice that it has a 12% disagreel rate what are these people stupid<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />KAZANDAR<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" />Dancer of Death<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />Kin of Dragons<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br /><br />May you find peace before peace finds you!!</font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-24 17:13:27
subject: <b>Correct, this is not a Theory at all, but it Needed to be Said.</b>
body:
This isn't really a theory, but I have absolutly no problem with it.  It Bloody said it in WH!!!  If you want Proof, the dice stopped rolling when he met her...That is enough by itself!  <br /><br />Seriously, I was dumbfounded when I saw this as a &quot;Theory&quot; section...I am still reading WH, but as soon as it *TOLD* (Note: TOLD) me that she was the Daughter o' Nine Moons...Well...it Bloody told me!  I realise I shouldn't be saying this here, since I imagine only people who Agree with this theory would come here to defend it...but...Well...It Said so!  I had no Idea there was any doubt!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">http://www.ffac.org</font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-16 17:20:44
subject: <b>whoever voted no</b>
body:
is an idiot, someone who hasnt read WH, or someone who is intentionly disgracing wotfreaks everywhere...<br />ummm yeah<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">hot damn.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-12-12 11:51:39
subject: <b>Well duuuuhhhh.</b>
body:
This is an arguement that was intuitively obvious to three-year olds. Those who voted no are morons, or just really really contrary. Good arguement, but where is the theory?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" /> Elvish <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" /> Warder under the light<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br />Librarian extraordinaire<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br />Proud defender of Freedom and Liberty<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-12-11 16:26:45
subject: <b>I don't know how this doesn't have 100% agreement.</b>
body:
Her words cut off as though sliced with a knife as her eyes fell on Tuon.  Egeanin was a pale woman, but she went paler.  Tuon glared bak above her gag with the stern ferocity f a headsman.  &quot;Oh, Light!&quot; Egeanin said hoarsely, sinking to her knees. &quot;You madman! It's death by slow torture to lay hands on the Daughter of the Nine Moons!&quot;<br /><br />I don't know how that isn't enough proof, let alone why it needs to be theorized about in other theories.


created: 2005-02-20 15:43:42
subject: <b>wow...</b>
body:
If my theory doesnt get posted after i read this... i might give up the will to live... or, who knows? maybe ill just use the true power to blow up my computer. that'd be kinda fun.....<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">-Sabin<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-04-05 05:10:09
subject: <b>Those who voted no</b>
body:
are NOT morons. They agree with the theory, but thought it was such a pitiful excuse of it that it didn't deserve a thumbs up.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bela.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bela.gif" border="0" /> Don't even think to ask how I came up with my nick; you don't want to know <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-09-25 09:21:37
subject: <b>Still</b>
body:
They are still morons<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">WAFFLES!<br />Bonded to Model_02<br />Alicia wishes she was as hot as me<br />Member of Anatidaephobians Anonymous<br />Not-So-Near Second Cousin to Saeric Greylord<br />Officially better at hockey than DREWRULESWOT!<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2006-08-31 17:03:34
subject: <b>oh dear</b>
body:
i thought you had to have some sort of intelligence to read wot but no, alas i was mistaken. stating facts in a (wait for it ) &quot;theory post&quot; isn't really all that smart thanks for the effort tho we all appreciate it


created: 2006-09-09 13:14:18
subject: <b>Isn't it possible...</b>
body:
...that this theory was a little tongue-in-cheek? Probably didn't require lambasting.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gandalf.gif" border="0" />He who breaks a thing to find out what it is has left the path of reason.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gandalf.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2006-10-21 22:58:31
subject: <b>If you think about it</b>
body:
Her words cut off as though sliced with a knife as her eyes fell on Tuon. Egeanin was a pale woman, but she went paler. Tuon glared bak above her gag with the stern ferocity f a headsman. &quot;Oh, Light!&quot; Egeanin said hoarsely, sinking to her knees. &quot;You madman! It's death by slow torture to lay hands on the Daughter of the Nine Moons!&quot;<br /><br />That never actually said Tuon was the DotNM.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>It's not apples and oranges, but no one paying attention could compare these apples without noticing: <br />(a) one is 12 times bigger and <br />(b) both of them are rutabagas.</i></font><p></p>


created: 2007-10-30 12:31:22
subject: <b>eh</b>
body:
so your saying she just randomly burst out about that for the heck of it? anyways on those who vote no, they probably just dislike such an obvious fact, not theory... it would be better for them to vote yes, since its true, then come here and gripe about it...


created: 2001-09-13 08:16:52
subject: <b>Nonono!!</b>
body:
Everybody knows that Mike is a schitzo!! They're two different people inside Mike's head! And of the two, Pento is the evil one owho is trying to take over.<br /><br />Fight it, Mike, fight it!!!


created: 2001-12-04 16:09:37
subject: <b>Nar...</b>
body:
Pento is Mike Reborn...<br /><br />...or the other way around<br /><br />So hard to keep track<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Wielder of teh Dutch l00ny!<br />(*mumble* Did that make sense? .... Oh well)</font><p></p>


created: 2001-12-12 06:11:16
subject: <b>?</b>
body:
Who care really?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">IRAFO*<br /><br />*I Read And Found Out</font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-12 01:17:05
subject: <b>You know...</b>
body:
I had a theory like this, but it was that mike was in reality RJ, but it never got posted...Kinda makes you wonder. Of course it could be that it just hasn't been looked at yet.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/seanchan.gif" border="0" />&quot;The Black Knight Always triumphs!!!!!&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-04-23 00:00:00
subject: <b>Hmmm</b>
body:
I actually have to agree with the first theory.  Might Min have been wrong? Her signs are allways right, but most are misentertpreted??? untill after the event happens, and then they all smack themselves upside the head for stupidity.  After all, they do seem to be fighting a war, and if the horn was so important, I do think it would get more book time (instead of Olver, who I do think rules btw!).  It's kinda strange to think of something that is crucial being left out.  Of course, it could just be so that nobody takes it, but, well, I did it again, I managed to confuse myself.<br /><img src="images/aessedai.gif" /> <img src="images/jester.gif" />


created: 2001-09-02 15:51:37
subject: <b>TG has not yet begun...</b>
body:
RJ has been quoted saying that it will take at least 3 books to do Tarmon Gai'don.  Unfortunetly I do not have links to the quotes.  And was pointed out about the Horn that is not proff enough.  And we do have Ishmael saying the Last Battle(TG) will come and the Forsaken thinking about trying to stay alive until TG.  So I don't believe that it has begun.  Besides what attacks have been made on the Dark One directly?


created: 2002-04-12 04:56:14
subject: <b>TG</b>
body:
I had always believed that RJ had written the first book as a complete work. In which case TG was the fight at Falme where the Horn was blown and the dark one defeated. Only in the second book onwards do we learn that it was one of the forsaken pretending to be the Dark one. I take this as being a literary device to give a reason for writing the other books in the series.


created: 2002-04-25 08:40:03
subject: <b>..</b>
body:
First, Min is ALWAYS right when she is sure of the meaning of the aura. And second, RJ has said that the last battle will require 2-3 books, and thereby this theory is wrong...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Know why the nightingale sings, is the answer to everything...</font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-25 10:18:58
subject: <b>It probably has already begun</b>
body:
The time frames fit with Tarmon Gaidon being in progress and finishing off with one big battle.<br /><br />Its the end of the millineum (around 998 NE). It is also the end of the 3rd millineum since the breaking AND the 3rd age since the age of legends. RJ likes to tie in popular mythology with his stories so potentially on the turn of the millineum we'll see the big battle and the new age. (Turn of the millineum ties in the with harbingers of DOOM In Real Life saying that the year 2000 would bring armageddon).<br /><br />With about 3 books to go it fits with capping off the age/millineum with a big battle to finish off all the skirmishes that have thus far happened (Tarwins gap, Falme etc etc)<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" />


created: 2003-05-07 18:19:55
subject: <b>Dumb</b>
body:
This is Dumb! There's going to be a last battle or it wouldn't be called a &quot;battle&quot;! The would call it the last boring 10 books that are still coming out. The dumbest theory ever is Tarmon Gai'don was already begun.


created: 2004-11-27 13:58:27
subject: <b>one problem</b>
body:
the kareathon cycle states 'twice dawns the day when his blood is shed' or something like that. rand has bled many times throughout the books so for it to be mentioned in prophecy it has to be pretty important. this signifies that tarmon gaidon is upon him, the day of his sacfrice. this prophecy therefore means thay tarmon gaidon is one day that dawns twice, not a huge multi year cycle.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> let the speedbart ride again upon the winds of time <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Made the second post on the new WoTMB2 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-09-12 12:49:19
subject: <b>I don't necessarily agree, but...</b>
body:
ZT, this series was originally meant to be THREE books and you said AT LEAST well its been at least that many.  Also, how could the Forsaken know or decide when TG begins? Besides, the theory had nothing to do with attacking the Dark One directly.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Allow the seal that cherishes the Requiem of Spirits guide you. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Five reasons to come to wotmania:<br />Mo (sheep the evicted)<br />Shanon (Delireus)<br />Jessie (IamFarDareisMai)<br />Ronnie (Lord of the Golden Star)<br />Emma (Narien)<br />Now who am I forgetting...?</font><p></p>


created: 2009-01-05 09:23:37
subject: <b>sounds,sound</b>
body:
I to think that the LB has begun and that it will be a on many levels that it is won,it is usually the small details that get you in the end and RJ is all about the small details,we will see,good theary.


created: 2001-03-20 00:00:00
subject: <b>Nynaeve and Lan living the past</b>
body:
Interesting theory.  However, I've always seen that Nynaeve will end up dying just as the former Queen of Manetheren died.  She will hear or know of Lan's death through the bond and simply let her anger overwhelm her and end up wiping out herself and hordes of the Shadow.  I'm simply basing this theory on the facts that that Queen of Manetheren (her name escapes me) is mentioned so often and that Lan seems destined to die.  Plus, it fits in well with the whole theme RJ has of the past reliving itself.


created: 2001-03-22 00:00:00
subject: <b>But she can't lead</b>
body:
While it does seam plausible that Nynaeve would choose to join the Kin over taking the 3 oaths she can't become their leader. Their rank is based soley on age, and it'd be quite awhile before Nynaeve was the oldest Kinswoman. I believe Egwene has stated that she doesn't intend to change any of the Kins rules so long as they don't conflict with those of the White Tower, so that means that Nynaeve would have to work her way up the ladder by out living those older than her.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-03-27 00:00:00
subject: <b>MARRIED TO LAN</b>
body:
I believe that Lan is not going to die. I think he and Nynaeve will live and have children. The reason I think this is from the beginning Lan has almost had a death wish. But now he has something to love and protect. If it was not for Nynaeve he probably would be dead by now from fighting and joining in battles recklessly.


created: 2001-06-06 10:10:47
subject: <b>All things change.</b>
body:
While the heirarchy of the Kin is currently age-based, with the Eldest Sister present in Ebou Dar automatically considered the top authority, we are talking about a group of women who never learned the true workings of the White Tower, as much as most of them wanted to. Had they known how much strength in the Power influences standing among Aes Sedai, they would surely have taken to that form as well. And now, they do know. The likelihood that they will not change their own ways is nil. Everyone other subset of society in this series has been forced to change. For one thing, what are the chances that most of the Kin will even see Ebou Dar again? Knowing that they aren't (weren't) in hiding any longer, there will be very little reason to attempt to go on as they were before.<br /><br />I can't say that I see Nynaeve becoming the leader of the Kin, just pointing out that the past method of doing things isn't a showstopping obstacle for future events.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> Call me Tim <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-10 20:49:22
subject: <b>I disagree with the above post.</b>
body:
I don't think that the Kin will reorganize their hierarchy based on strength in the one power.  First because many of the Kin are becoming disenchanted with Aes Sedi after actually being around a few.  Secondly, strength in the power is a stupid way to determine standing anyway.  Wisdom should count more than raw power.  The elders of a culture are usually the leaders, because they have the experience to know what is best for the people.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Inner_Turmoil <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Inner: of or relating to the mind or spirit <br /><br />Turmoil : a state or condition of extreme confusion, agitation, or commotion <br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-04 13:13:17
subject: <b>Nynaeve Aes Sedai</b>
body:
Nynaeve will be Elayne's Advisor. The Kin will keep their own hierachy and be seperate but also a part<br />of the White Tower. Probably under the guidance of the Yellow Ajah since most of the Kin have other <br />methods of weavin healing.


created: 2001-09-10 09:17:00
subject: <b>....</b>
body:
I always held the romantic notion that Nyneave would find a nice village and settle down woth Lan as a Wisdom.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i><font face="times new roman"><br />But the dogs you say they fed you to<br />Lay their muzzles in your lap<br />And the lions that they led you to<br />Lie down and take a nap</font><br /></i><font face="wingdings"><font color="blue">h</font></font></font><p></p>


created: 2001-12-07 00:00:02
subject: <b>well</b>
body:
i always thought that after TG the blight would retreat back and the lands of Malkier would be freed from the blight and Lan would take up the throne with nyneave as queen they would then have children and live life happily ever after<br />


created: 2002-01-24 15:36:27
subject: <b>the tower will reform</b>
body:
i think that the white tower will be reformed by egwene to some extent, because it's odvious she want to marry what's his name, i think some of the stupid aes sedia tradition will be done away with before TG and that nynaeye will stay ase sedia until she becomes a mother, wich i think will happen and malkier will be repopulated ect. this is b/c she saw this in the archways.


created: 2002-05-03 18:51:21
subject: <b>response to Raserei</b>
body:
I don't really agree with this theory either. As tWoT progresses, Nynaeve is seen as getting more and more exasperated with the Kin, and in WH she couldn't wait to get away from them and the Windfinders. It's also hard to imagine someone with her...ahem...high spirits working behind a desk as a sort of glorified secretary. An interesting idea that came up in WH was Elayne's intention to keep Nynaeve at court with her as the official Aes Sedai advisor to the Lion Throne. I'm sure Nynaeve would like staying in Andor, where she could use her influence to look out for the Two Rivers.


created: 2002-06-16 02:40:23
subject: <b>Healer</b>
body:
Nynaeve will stay Aes Sedai, like Reserei said she is becoming more Aes Sedai-ish. She now has respect for Aes Sedai and since being raised in Saildar she is angered if anyone thinks her not an Aes Sedai. I cannot see her behind a desk as a Keeper either... Nynaeve would do well as Elayne's advisor from her experience with the Women's Circle in Emond's Field but I also cannot see Nynaeve taking orders and since Elayne is Aes Sedai herself, why would she need an Aes Sedai advisor. I think Nynaeve will be active with the Tower when Egwene's Aes Sedai takes it. She is Yellow Ajah and one of the best Healers and she believes anything short of death can be Healed. She will find a way to Heal Rand's old wound and the wound from the Shadar Logoth dagger. Rebirth of Malkier will be cool. Lan + Nynaeve forever! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shy.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/seanchan.gif" border="0" /> Semirhage Fan <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/seanchan.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /> Moiraine SuperFan <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lan.gif" border="0" /> Lan Inspector <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lan.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/birgitte.gif" border="0" /> Nynaeve lover <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/birgitte.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shy.gif" border="0" /> Nynaeve's most devoted, loyal, and spazmastic fan <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shy.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" /> Aes Sedai of the Yellow Ajah <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Nynessa Sedai <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-04 11:56:21
subject: <b>sitter?</b>
body:
Maybe shell become the sitter for the yellow ajah.  That would be her style.  Hopefully her and Lan do settle down in MALKIER (SP?)and have kids someday.  Nynaeve is the best, her and Lan rock.


created: 2002-08-15 18:31:26
subject: <b>Happily Ever After?</b>
body:
Call me crazy, but ever since the Wise Ones told Nynaeve that Lan would die if she did, I always just assumed that Nynaeve would die in the Last Battle, and that Lan would follow after.  I think Lan said something similar when he rescued her in Ebou Dar. . . .


created: 2002-08-20 07:04:26
subject: <b>I don't think so . . .</b>
body:
Just after the kin is discovered, Egwene says that Aes Sedai can retire into the kin, but that the kin will keep their rule.<br /><br />This rule of course is their hierarchy according to age.  No matter what stretch of the imagination, Nynaeve will never be old enough to head the kin after Tarmon Gai'don.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" />  The Lord of the night <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" />     Vanquisher of evil  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" />            Paetar       <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-09-23 13:33:10
subject: <b>Moiraine said something...</b>
body:
is it just me or does no one remember ? (or am I making this up?)<br />in tEotW  Moiraine tells Egwene someone else in her village has the spark. Egwene is excited and asks if she will also become Aes Sedai . Moiraine says that , no , her path is something quite different.<br />I think that this is an obvious referal to Nyneave . Anyone have any objections? No? Good<br />I know that Moiraine has no foretelling etc, but I dont think RJ would have just dropped it in<br />When I reread it, I was so happy!! I dont want Nyneave to be Aes Sedai . I think she'd be much better off by operating on her own . Besides, being Aes Sedai is kinda crapppppppy.<br /> <br /> Remember , Ill kill anyone against Nyneave , so dont argue<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">i killed the world and you can too if you try hard. <br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-11-29 13:21:26
subject: <b>responding to rules of aes sedai....</b>
body:
howdy  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br />ok, this is ever so slightly off topic, but just one thing kinda struck me as the thought about Aes Sedai not being able to marry wound its way somewhere into that theory, especially since Egwene would be at their head &amp; she already has some Aiel influence.   Yeah, that kinda makes sense to me, but, then again, I can't quite see Egwene making that be law since she seems so darn stuck on Gawyn at the moment  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" />


created: 2003-01-23 15:25:13
subject: <b>Test for the Accepted....</b>
body:
During Nynaeve's test for accepted, she had....a glimpse into her future. <br /><br />The one where:<br /><br />* She's married to Lan. (Already happened.)<br />* Nynaeve is an Aes Sidhe. (Already happened.)<br />* Lan mentions the name of another Aes Sidhe. (I forgot the woman's name, but she is already introduced in the book as the Grandmotherly women who is now one of the Novices with the Salidar Aes Sidhe.)<br /><br />From what I remember of this, it seemed to take place after Tarmon Gai'don. <br /><br />Unless of course, Nynaeve and Lan step aside and take time to have a family, bring the Malkier (sp?) back instead of continueing to fight with the good side for the Last Battle.  I don't see them stepping aside though.<br /><br />Sar.


created: 2003-02-02 23:08:26
subject: <b>leadership and age</b>
body:
I think it has been made clear that the Kin leaders are chosen by age. So Nynaeve would stand lower among the Kin than almost anyone. I don't think they will change that.


created: 2003-03-23 18:45:13
subject: <b>Just speculations</b>
body:
I think that Nynaeve will be one of three things, although I really don't think the last will really happen.<br /><br />1) Nynaeve takes up role of queen of Malkier and raises an army.<br /><br />2) She becomes Aes Sedai advisor to Elayne.<br /><br />3) She becomes Keeper of Chronicles.<br /><br />I believe more in 1 happening. Why, you ask? Well, one, she already is queen being married to Lan, and two, in the GH, Agelmar tells Lan that the Borderlands (or Shienar, forgot which) would be behind him should he raise the Golden Crane (or something to that effect) and Lan says he won't. Since he won't, who better than the queen, if not the king? And I'm assuming that there's going to be a need for an amy when Tarmon Gaidon comes. So she takes up rightful role of queen and raises an army. <br /><br />My first time posting so be kind. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Nynaeve Rocks!!!


created: 2003-05-07 08:21:56
subject: <b>.</b>
body:
I don't think so. While she hated becoming Aes Sedai in the beginning, now she's &quot;Aes Sedai down to her toenails,&quot; to quote.<br /><br />I don't want to see the Aes Sedai retire into the Kin anyway. It always seemed a stupid idea to me.<br /><br />I can't see her staying close to the Tower, either, which leads me to believe that she'll either be queen with Lan a la <i>ter'angreal</i>, or become advisor to Elayne. I reckon queenage, 'cos I think that Lan's destined to win his fight with the Blight and reclaim Malkier blah blah blah. I am also personally biased on that issue <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />And the grandmotherly Aes Sedai is Sharina Malloy. Lan suggested that she could &quot;see Sharina Sedai&quot; if she felt ill in the Accepted test.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">---<br /><br />There once was a rogue Aes Sedai. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br />Who decided to become a Jedi. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-green.gif" border="0" /><br />But then she met Gandalf, <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gandalf.gif" border="0" /><br />Who chopped all her hands off, <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /><br />Just before he poked her in the eye. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-06-08 18:12:44
subject: <b>Nynaeve lead the Kin? NEVER</b>
body:
She would kill Lan before she would do that.  However, with Egwene`s plan to permit AS to retire into the Kin in order to increase life span,  she may well do that.<br /><br />Malkier cannot be rebuilt until after Tarmon Gaidon, ie until the Blight has been removed.<br /><br />Aes Sedai do not spend all their time in the WT, just a few, so Nynaeve can spend her time in the world, doing her thing- Healing, raising a family with Lan, being a Queen and having a ball,<br /><br />Go, Nynaeve and Lan.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2003-09-18 23:07:05
subject: <b>Queen of Malkier</b>
body:
I have to side with those who see Lan and Nynaeve in Malkier. The tower would want as many Aes Sedai for queens as they could get.  As for Nyn not being Aes Sedai, I think Moiraine was referring to her not leaving the village at the same time as Egwene.  However, the pattern had other ideas, and by Bearlon (sp?) Nynaeve was already on the path to being Aes Sedai.


created: 2004-01-10 11:04:15
subject: <b>Kin don't Marry</b>
body:
The Kin do not get married, have children, or do anything that could lead to children, Nynaeve and Lan are married and do what leads to children.  She's not going to give that up! She won't join the Kin unless Lan dies.


created: 2004-04-22 00:06:51
subject: <b>Kin didn't marry...</b>
body:
The Kin didn't marry to help keep secrecy - now there is no reason to avoid notice, I think they will relax a few of those rules. <br /><br />Nynaeve now being Aes Sedai &quot;to her toenails&quot; will probably do as others suggest - while not in the Tower she will rule a recovered Malkier as Queen next to her beloved Lan, who certainly deserves to get a break after the life he's had.<br /><br />I have no doubt she'll be a major player in TG during and after - using her power in conjunction with Rand (controlling Callandor, maybe, or perhaps Jahar will use that again) and healing Rand after he's &quot;dead&quot;.<br /><br />One thing always struck me as odd - all the other Two Rivers folk have back stories and family. Nynaeve just - was there, youngest Wisdom ever, blah, blah. Her lack of past almost reminds me of how the newly released Forsaken just dropped into major player roles in the Council of Nine, as Tuon's Truth Speaker, etc. I don't suggest she's one of them, but if the Creator were going to drop in anti-Forsaken somewhere, she'd fit the bill.<br /><br />I also wonder if she's a reincarnation of the last Queen of Manetheren (Ellisande?) She and Egwene both somehow just seem to &quot;remember&quot; how to do some weaves and pick up stuff really fast.<br /><br />My only question is if she will spend enough time in the Tower after TG to learn all she missed....<br /><br />Sorry for droning on so - first post here after year or so of lurking. Be kind.... *Tialin runs off*<br />


created: 2004-06-21 04:33:45
subject: <b>Nynaeve queen AND queen's adviser?</b>
body:
I always had the feeling that she would be queen of Malkurie(sp?) and be Elayne's adviser, and elayne would be her adviser?<br /><br />anyone else think of this, or am i just stupid?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">There can be only one, may it be <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/uno.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-12-30 00:28:13
subject: <b>Aes Sedai marrying</b>
body:
Greens marry.  It says so in tGH.  Quoted :&quot;The only greens with only one warder are married to them.&quot;<br /><br />So what's with all the &quot;Aes Sedai can't marry&quot; posts?  They can marry if they want to its just that many don't.<br /><br />That said, as for Nynaeve and Lan, I believe they will live in wedded bliss in Malkier after the blight receeds and the Song is sung to restore the tainted land to its glory.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br />&quot;Mother, mother ocean, I have heard you call,<br />Wanted to sail upon your waters since I was three feet tall...Yes, I am a pirate two hundred years too late. The cannons don't thunder there's nothin' to plunder...&quot; <br />   -J. Buffet<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2007-06-22 00:56:25
subject: <b>Nynaeve is gonna die</b>
body:
She is the most hated character in the series, she just has to die. she is extremely annoying, she won't make it to post tarmon gai'don, she'll die during it or before it.


created: 2001-03-27 00:00:00
subject: <b>HAHA</b>
body:
HAHAHA!<br />OF COURSE THEY AREN'T MARRIED YET!<br />BUT IT DOESN'T REALLY MATTER BECAUSE I'M THE FIRST ONE ON THE BLACKBOARD!<br />HAHAHA!<br /><img src="images/aessedai.gif" /><br /><img src="images/pharoah.gif" /><br />XX(<br /><img src="images/darkone.gif" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-04-25 00:00:00
subject: <b>Well that was stupid</b>
body:
But getting to the theory - I think one thing that would support Mat and Tuon already being married (because of Mat's statements of "she's my bloody wife") would be that RJ is trying to tie up some OLD loose ends quickly as we near the end of the series.  I mean, if this is going to go on for 3 more books, you have to consider that Tarmon Gaidon is going to take up a big chunk of the last book (or it better had! I will feel jipped if THAT turns out to be one of those things he puts in the last paragraph of the last chapter).  That leaves 2 1/2 books to finish everything that has been started.  Just dealing with the major characters will take at least 2 books.  Everyone is off in their own direction!  They have all got to somehow get to where they are supposed to be before the Last Battle.  I expect we will see some pretty surprising stuff (as in "Dang! That happened fast!") in the next few books.  And it wouldn't shock me one bit to find out that Mat and Tuon are already married!


created: 2001-05-02 00:00:00
subject: <b>NO</b>
body:
Imagine what kind of possibilyties that has saying she's my wife meaning bethroal. For all we know the seanchans was sscared spitöless of tuon at the moment


created: 2001-07-27 23:39:45
subject: <b>Better Late Then Never</b>
body:
This is an interesting idea.  Saying that someone is your wife three times and it is so.  We know so little of the Seanchan culture that it's hard to say what RJ is thinking.  However let's look at cultures right here on our earth.  If I'm not mistaken, Islamic religion allows a man to divorce his wife by saying it three times.  Could RJ be borrowing current culture for his fantasy world people (with a little twist)?  I think Matt just married himself.  Besides, even knowing he was fated to marry Tuon, does anyone really think he'd knowingly go through with it?


created: 2001-08-28 17:52:27
subject: <b>Not Married</b>
body:
I seriously doubt that Mat's statement will mean they are married or even betrothed. I think Tuon's smile when Mat said that had either something to do with whatever the damane told her about her future or the omen she spent the whole book looking for to allow her to reveal herself as the Daughter of the Nine Moons.<br /><br />I doubt Jordan is going to make things that simple when he had Elayne and Aviendha go through an elaborate ritual just to become first sisters, which, I think, is a far more trivial event than fulfulling a prophecy.<br /><br />I suppose we'll find out in a year or so.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> Software Analyst <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />&quot;It's clean...&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/oh.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />&quot;You are taking your first step into a larger world.&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-10 10:42:25
subject: <b>of course there not married</b>
body:
I think it was just Matt's shock of finding out who the daughter of the nine moons is after being told by the 'Finns (or whoever they were i can't check while i'm at work) that he will marry the DotNM. I think it was more of a 'this woman is going to be my wife' statement. I think it was a throw away statement of shock and has no real bearing to anyone.<br /><br />I think Tuon may have been given some inkling of Matt in her future from what she has been told, or maybe she just fancies him, but shes definately interested in him.<br />


created: 2001-09-21 05:35:17
subject: <b>Partially agree</b>
body:
I dont think they are literally married, i think mat was referring to the inevitability of the marriage. Personally i think the empress will be stunned by mat when she meets him. I am sure the crystal throne is a terangreal and mats foxhead will protect him from whatever it uses the power to do.<br /><br />Elanor


created: 2002-01-06 08:23:33
subject: <b>You'll have to wait...</b>
body:
RJ will probably spend a couple of chapters in the next book to marry Tuon and Mat. But remember, theres 90% chance that Tuon will tie Rand up witht the bloody black collar wich Egeanin gave to the Empress. &lt;--- Big event in Randland!


created: 2002-07-05 12:03:22
subject: <b>mmm</b>
body:
I also agree that Matt and Tuon are not married due to a simple statement.  This was just Mat being suprised that Tuon was the daughter of the nine moons.  I agree that they will probably be given a few chapters to be married in the next book.


created: 2002-10-15 09:17:18
subject: <b>Things that cannot be said</b>
body:
I seem to remember from many books ago a story about of couple of Seanchan who went out and got raven tattoos, because they thought they looked cool. But raven tattoos were the sign of property of the royal house, so they were caught and made into slaves. <br /><br />I think that by saying &quot;She is my wife&quot; Mat has declared himself property of Tuon somehow (by Seanchan standards). So he has inadvertantly tied himself to Tuon by saying the wrong thing.


created: 2002-10-27 21:09:45
subject: <b>Not married</b>
body:
I think that by declaring himself Tuon wife he is declaring himself a Claimant to the Crystal Throne.<br /><br />No real evidence except buy reading WoT I got the impression that the current empress does not have a consort.  And maybe the reason she doesn't is because her husband would be Emperor?  Well it is a bit of a stretch but that is what I think.


created: 2003-01-29 06:09:45
subject: <b>yup</b>
body:
Well, as we know from Egeanin in CoT the marriage is already half done! The only thing left is Tuon saying the magical words thirce as well (in front of witnesses). Poor Matty..  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/clown.gif" border="0" /> Though I like the idea of hom just accicently dropping into a marriage <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/clown.gif" border="0" />


created: 2003-02-14 12:37:22
subject: <b>Impossible</b>
body:
It is absolutely impossible that they are married. In COT, Eggeanin actually says that the ceremony isn't complete. Tuon has to say that Mat is her husband three times, in his presence (I think), within a year.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/egwene.gif" border="0" />Zerinia Faershiam<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/egwene.gif" border="0" /><br />129 w 87 tree<br />Murrinell Wood, WE, 98833<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-03-02 16:14:47
subject: <b>Almost (Spoilers)</b>
body:
With Seanchan marrige cerimonies all Tuon needs to do is say that Mat is her husband three times and they're married. We really need Tuon smiley. <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" />Nearly Newly Wed<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /> Forever


created: 2003-07-21 14:42:12
subject: <b>not married YET</b>
body:
they aren't married til tuon says &quot;he is my husband&quot; or watever<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />


created: 2004-02-18 01:20:07
subject: <b>Not Married....YET</b>
body:
You're right, Mat and Tuon aren't married, yet.  But all that needs to happen is for Tuon to say that Mat is her husband three times in front of witnesses, even if she's on the opposite side of the world from him (I'm pretty sure that this is mentioned, but I don't have my books with me to find teh exact page/quote) and they will be officially married.


created: 2007-06-09 00:25:39
subject: <b>problem</b>
body:
well, except for one fact. Somewhere in KoD Semirhage makes it clear to Suroth that she killed the whole royal family except for Tuon. (i don't have my books at the moment). but its in there<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> Shara is actually inhabited by bannanas <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /> The Band of the Red Hand is made of Ninjas like Mat<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /><br />Narg+Bela= Nela!<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/w00t.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /> ;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bela.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2008-02-28 15:05:00
subject: <b>Tuon and Mat</b>
body:
Remember that the entire Imperial family is dead in Seanchan - Tuon may not know it yet, but she is the Empress, and if she says she is married to Mat, in accord with a prophecy, who's to say nay?  Besides, Karede calls Mat &quot;Your Highness&quot; and tells him he is Prince of Ravens.<br /><br />If the Seanchan did not believe the words binding, don't you think Selucia would have said something?  They seem to be great sticklers for protocol, and would they allow even the Daughter of the Nine Moons to mock propriety in such a way?<br /><br />I think the marriage stands - both Mat and Tuon were told in no uncertain terms that it would take place, and RJ took too long to set it up for it to just be a blip in the plot.  Besides, it's about time Mat was taught some manners anyway.


created: 2001-03-22 00:00:00
subject: <b>Blind Channeling</b>
body:
It has been mentioned on more than one occasion (at least twice in LoC) that one must see the flows to weave them.  It seems to me that if Rand were blind he would become pretty useless.  Is this where Logain steps in?


created: 2001-03-26 00:00:00
subject: <b>Nice one</b>
body:
I am just here to say that I whole-heartedly agree with this theory.  Everything makes sense, and the more that I think about it, the more i can imagine Robert Jordan killing and resurrecting Rand.  keep up the good work <img src="images/aessedai.gif" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />the lover of light and wisdom<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" />the all-seeing eye<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />the wandering wotmaniac<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-04-03 00:00:00
subject: <b>Healing</b>
body:
It would be interresting if Rand were to blinded, but, isn't everything short of death supposed to be curible by the one power? it is also never said that sight is needed for the use of the one power, the outcome of Rand's fight with the dark one will not rest on the level of skill each has with a sword, it will rest on Rand's ability to out think the dark one and his ability in the one power. Perhaps blindness would lend new focus and patience to the Lord Dragon.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/clonetrooper.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/leia.gif" border="0" />I bet she gives great helmet<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/leia.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/clonetrooper.gif" border="0" /> <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-04-06 00:00:00
subject: <b>Is Rand now blind?</b>
body:
I must admit that this theory makes a lot of sense, probably more than any other I've seen so far.I remeber a part of the book when Rand is channeling in Shadar Logoth about him not being able to see anyone around him, was this just temporary because of the heavy-duty channeling? or was it permanent.Well, we will find out in a century or so when the next book comes out.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I'm not dead yet<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-04-12 00:00:00
subject: <b>Channeling Blind</b>
body:
He couldn't control the weaves blind, but he could link and let someone he trusts control the weaves.  Or maybe he will serve the crystal throne, being controled by that male a'dam.  That would seem to fit Moridin's game.


created: 2001-04-12 00:00:00
subject: <b>to help him die</b>
body:
IMO Alivia will have to help him die because Moridin will gain control of Rand with a cour'souvra.  This also fits with Moridin's game, since when masters play the Fisher changes hand many times.


created: 2001-05-03 00:00:00
subject: <b>In fact...</b>
body:
It is impossible to channel without seeing the weaves, it states that rather bluntly in the books.  Thus, the only way Rand's channeling abilities would be of much use without him being able to see would be if he was in fact linked to someone who was drawing on the One Power through him.  Of course, on the other hand, who's to say that Rand is going to need to channel at all in the Last Battle?


created: 2001-07-02 00:31:53
subject: <b>Learning to Channel...</b>
body:
I like this theory, what would it mean for Rand if he really is blinded? Could it be that the need to see your weaves is just part of the way you learn to use the power? It's mentioned in the books that hand gestures, while not part of the channeling, are required for most people because they learned the weaves using those gestures. <br /><br />Whenever we get a channeler's POV, size, location, and complexity of weaves get mentioned but not what they look like (I assumed they were like colored ropes in the air, but I can't recall that ever being mentioned). Nobody has trouble distiguishing the weaves, is this because they look different (Spirit gold, fire red, etc.) or is it that sight just puts what they feel into perspective? Even when unable to see a nearby use of the power, every channeler can sense its use. Sometimes the power is directed to a place in the channeler's head, like when an Aes'Sedai compels a warder, she wouldn't be able to see that.<br /><br />So... It's a stretch, but IF Rand is blinded, would it be possible for him to relearn to channel without sight? They say its impossible to change your methods, but alot of impossible things have been shown do-able -- besides, Rand hasn't had much luck channeling anything lately anyhow. For instance, could he learn to rely on sensing the power? Blindness may effectively remove a crutch that everyone relies on, if he could master blind channeling he'd be much more versatile. Rather than seeing he would know the location of all weaves in relation to himself. If that were possible he'd be at an advantage in One Power battles -- no more turning to face his target, he'd never be overwhelmed when too many individual weaves were tossed at him, no one could catch him with a shield from behind... in not depending on sight he would effectively see in all directions.


created: 2001-07-04 01:25:16
subject: <b>mat's eye</b>
body:
maybe mat has to give an eye to rand. i don't think it would happen but it would sovle mat losing his eye to save the world. that would mean rand would be able to see enough to channle.


created: 2001-08-14 01:35:53
subject: <b>NonLiteral</b>
body:
What if the blindness thing is a metaphor.  Egwene's vision of Randypoo in beggar-garb with his eyes covered occurred when she saw other metaphorical visions of the other T'averen as well as Rand (the tiny dragon-creatures=aiel all getting under his skin and so forth, remember?).  So his blindness could be unwillingness to recognize certain things, or perhaps another kind of metaphorical unseeing.  I do agree that the Horn is more important than we know, but I think Rand will live, simply because I'm stubborn.  Perhaps with the Taint cleansed, Lewsypoo will begone from inside Our Hero's head, and now He can respond to the trumpetblast??? !!!


created: 2001-12-07 16:56:56
subject: <b>Mat and his eye</b>
body:
I don't have my books with me at the moment, but I like the idea of Mat's eye being involved somehow.<br />  I seem to recall that he had to give up half the light to save the light.


created: 2002-01-18 02:35:05
subject: <b>Blinded Linking:</b>
body:
Well, linking would be a good way to get around Rand's being sightless. But if he just linked with Nynaeve or Alivia, he would still control the circle (as stated by Sammael in LoC and elsewhere) and the problem still exists.<br /><br />That's where Logain comes in. If he were also added to the link, then control could be passed to him and he would get his glory. <br />(This assumes in a mixed circle of three, a man can have control of the flows.)


created: 2002-04-12 05:04:23
subject: <b>Blinded</b>
body:
I had thought that the blinding of Rand would happen and that Mat would &quot;give up half the light of the world&quot; in donating one of his eyes to Rand. I may be getting my prophecies mixed up though.


created: 2002-05-11 22:09:04
subject: <b>Wilders?</b>
body:
I thought that Wilders didn't always know that they could channel. I can think of one Wilder that was healing before she knew what she were doing. Even if they do see it if they dont understand or remember what they saw it could allow for someone who to channel without sight. Some questions I have...<br />#1 in LoC Rand channels in the box to free himself...How much light could be in that box. He talks about dim light(970 paperback) uness the box has boards that aren't touching at points the only hole is the Key hole... Is it really light or does he think that he can see, or is it a minor error?<br />#2 Rand often talked about talking what he needed when he channeled...why would he need to see it if he didnt know what he was using?<br />#3 Males and Females can sever weaves that they cant see. If they can sever what they know is there and can't see than why can't they channel what they know is there but can't see?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-22 21:56:23
subject: <b>I understand!</b>
body:
Rand will lose his sight! however, the accident with saidin will heighten all his senses, to the point where he becomes Daredevil, the famous blind superhero! plus, he'll be able to luagh ot DO for getting beaten by a blind dude.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gimli.gif" border="0" /> Dwarven Lord <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gimli.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> Blademaster wannabe <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-green.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-11-20 01:25:10
subject: <b>I don't think so...</b>
body:
I don't think Rand will be brought back with the Horn.  The Heores will be bound to whoever blows the Horn.  When Mat blew it, however, the Heroes acknowledged Rand as the Dragon, the One they will follow.  Rand will be alive for them to follow when Mat next blows the Horn.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Bob L. Sedai (a.k.a. Luge) <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /><br />Fighting off the Taint - <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tinfoilhat.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" />Thanks given to Burr, the ever-helpful theory critic<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />And to Light in the Night, fellow theorist extraordinaire<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Voted Best Screenname 1 (one) years in a row.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-11-22 20:58:50
subject: <b>Moiraine</b>
body:
Moiraine channels with her eyes closed all over the place in EOTW.  Just look at the scenes where they stop, such as in the blight, and Moiraine &quot;cleans up&quot; what she did the night before with her eyes closed.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Bob L. Sedai (a.k.a. Luge) <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /><br />Fighting off the Taint - <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tinfoilhat.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" />Thanks given to Burr, the ever-helpful theory critic<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />And to Light in the Night, fellow theorist extraordinaire<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Voted Best Screenname 1 (one) years in a row.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-03-21 00:00:00
subject: <b>Other Armies?</b>
body:
I think other possibilities exist as to the identity of the 'Four Armies', but here is one I think might fit.  The four borderland nations each have an army of about 50,000 soldiers (nothing to scoff at for sure) and Elayne became acquainted with the leaders of the army in WH.  Even though they occupy the same camp and march together, the fact that they are from four separate nations would fit the bill for the 'four armies' theory.


created: 2001-03-24 00:00:00
subject: <b>Gwayn and the band.</b>
body:
Twenty thousand is the Number, that Halvan Norry uses.  He never heard of an army with more than 5,000.  So he's say's<br />that four armies are coming from the west. We know that Talamanes in charge of the Band in Mat's absence has 16,000<br />Men under arms.  He wanted to hurry off too Ebou Dar with the band He 'felt a pull from Mat to the south.'  Ewgene told him Mat was in Camleyn with Elayne. Now Talamanes Knows  that Aes Sedai cant lie. (he Doesn't know that Ewgene, has not sworn on the oath rod.) So he would go with what he knows. His easiest travel route would have been north along the erinin, too Aringill cross over and come in from the west.  Gwayn would come down from the north too Aringill and also be coming in from the west.  He probably would have gathered up who he could of the Younglings.  But remember the younglings wont accept other soldiers or even merchants guards so I would have too question, whether or not he would snag any Mercs or even any of the old gaurdsmen. Talamanes, doesnt have that problem he still maybe recruiting.  Combine them too get the 20,000 plus if Talamanes did come from the Caheirian side that would explain Norry's unease that it is Her Caheirian supporters.<p><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Barsoomian <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lan.gif" border="0" /> Peace favor your sword! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lan.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /> Tai'shar Wheel of timer's <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /> May you find Shade and Water <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /></font></p><p></p>


created: 2001-05-22 18:47:48
subject: <b>Shai'tan's advocate again</b>
body:
I do hope Gawyn is involved in this approaching force, though I doubt it. I can't say I have one weak theory about the four armies of Master Norry's report, but I can eliminate several.<br /><br />Talmanes and the Band of the Hand is still on the border of Murandy, intending to aid in that countries coalescence under one ruler.<br /><br />The Borderland armies were positioned West of Caemlyn, and these new four armies are approaching from the East. Elayne clearly took care of any soon threat from the Borderlanders in any case. They believed her words, and agreed to move south through Andor for mutual benefit, her gaining support to oppose them if necessary, and them getting closer to facing the Dragon Reborn.<br /><br />It seems clear that these are not formally prepared armies, else the reports of them on their way would have identified them by uniform, or banner, or some such. The same logic holds for them not being Aiel.<br /><br />It occured to me to consider the Seanchan, since they are able to travel en masse to staging points at some distance, but why would they seem to be four armies, instead of one large, 20,000 to 30,000 man army? Besides, they wouldn't stage themselves more than a week from an objective only to approach on the ground. Consider how they took Amador.<br /><br />The crowd being led by Caraline and Darlin were at least temporarily dispersed when Fain called in that evil fog. Perhaps they reassembled, and were joined by forces from Toram, in the region Northeast of Aringill. Elayne also considers that Elenia and Naean each have forces to the east, and since they have been freed we haven't heard from them. So, one potential makeup of the four armies might be supporters of:<br /><br />1. Caraline Damodred<br />2. Toram Riatin (I know Lan killed Toram in Far Madding, but he still has backers who wouldn't want Elayne on the Sun Throne of Cairhien as Rand intends.)<br />3. Elenia<br />4. Naean<br /><br />This would require that they all communicated in a way to arrive at an agreement about ending Elayne's claim, and who would succeed to the Lion Throne. Hmm, didn't Mesaana teach Alviarin how to Travel? Perhaps Mesaana decided to get involved in Andoran politics as a way to draw Rand back to Caemlyn, having Alviarin, the Keeper, act as an embassy of the White Tower, which would carry immense credibility with each of the Elayne's opponents. Well, it's a thought.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> Call me Tim <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-21 02:57:47
subject: <b>Yeah, this might be a tougher question then it originally appears to be</b>
body:
Almost every single army in the books right now are either tied up in conflicts or too far away from east of Camelyn to be one of these four.  The armies are too small to be Borderland.  The Whitecloaks are too far away and probably wouldn't want to Travel anyway, the Band is down in Murandy... I mean, who's left?  Overall, I have a couple ideas.  One is that perhaps it's a remnant of Aiel from the Waste coming over.  Possible, especially if something important happened out in the Waste, and Rand's been busy fighting Seanchan and in Far Madding to contact a Wise One.  Perhaps a remnant of the Shaido?  Also possible, since they're so spread out that it'd be impossible to track them all.<br /><br />Another theory I've heard is that it's an army of Shadowspawn, Trollocs and Myrrdrral and the like.  This theory would suggest that the DO is getting the ball rolling, and that Tarmon Gai'don is approaching.  While this idea kinda seems off the wall, it would be physically possible for it to happen.  There are no main armies north of Camelyn right now since the Borderlands have been emptied of soldiers, and so a concentrated attack could break through.  Or they could've Travelled or used the Ways.  I like this idea because it gets Shadowspawn back into the story and moves us closer to TG.  Anyway, that's just an idea.


created: 2001-08-31 17:13:45
subject: <b>Other Armies Not thought of</b>
body:
Perhaps the Steddings are comming together for a march.<br />What of the lands beyond the Aiel Waste. They might want to see the dragon also<br />These don't have much to do with the current situation about Elayne's bid for the throne. <br />But I would not count them out.<br /><br /><br />


created: 2002-04-29 00:44:00
subject: <b>Gawyn outside TV</b>
body:
I don't have the book in front of me but if I remember correctly Gawyn and the Younglings outside the tower are with the AS that returned (I think she was white).  She was hoping someone higher up would show up so she didn't have to confront Elaida.  I think Elaida told her to go back to the small town she was in and sit tight with the Younglings.<br />I guess Gaywn could've gotten Elayne's message and left for Andor, but I don't think he'd have that many people with him.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-green.gif" border="0" /> Jedi Knight <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-green.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-green.gif" border="0" /> Member of the WoT-Jedi Council <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-green.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />My First Duty is to the Truth<br />I am Jack's complete lack of Surprise</font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-21 11:44:02
subject: <b>Glimmers spoiler alert</b>
body:
Glimmers proves that Gawyn/ Younglings are in one of the towns surrounding Tar Valon, Dorlain I think.<br /><br />So that nixes this theory.<br /><br />Whatever happened to Elaida's tower guards anyway? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" />=


created: 2007-08-10 15:11:06
subject: <b>armies identified</b>
body:
the four armies are<br /><br />1) Nean, Arymilla, Elenia, and their mates<br />2) The borderlanders<br />3) 3 of the high seats standing aside<br />4) the other 3 high seats standing aside <br /><br />it is mentioned several times that the 6 high seats who want dylen as queen are in two seperate camps, with two seperate armies


created: 2001-03-20 00:00:00
subject: <b>Shadow and the Horn</b>
body:
Although it may have been mentioned by Verin that the shadow can also blow the horn, I believe we have learned well enough that Aes Sedai don't know everything and speak only the truth that they believe is truth.  However, if the Dragon were to be turned to the Shadow, then the heroes would fight for the shadow.   I'm starting to believe that this is what the Dark One needs to have happen to truly re-shape the world.  The fact that the forsaken, under the direction of Moridin are now striving to kill Rand shows that they are hedging their bets and would be just as happy seeing Rand die and going on for another cycle of the wheel.  Shadar Haran (conspicuously absent in recent books) is the true hand of the Dark One and has never given any such order.


created: 2001-06-21 05:48:12
subject: <b>.....</b>
body:
It said that the Shadow could blow the horn, but it never said that the heros would follow the Shadow.  They will follow the banner, and the Dragos, no matter who blows the horn. Duh.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ph34r!</font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-28 03:16:33
subject: <b>The Horn goes both ways</b>
body:
Just around that part of TGH Hawkwing also says that he has fought often on the side on the Light AND on the side of the shadow!! This puts to death the theory of dreadlords coming when the horn is blown for the Shadow &amp; that the shadow needs the banner, because the banner has been kept in the Eye of The World since the Breaking, as said in EoTW. Eventhough the Lews Therin has been spun out many times before, only Rand &amp; Lews have ever been proclaimed the Dragon for truth.


created: 2001-06-30 15:13:08
subject: <b>Well</b>
body:
It never states that the Heroes must follow the real dragon.<br /><br />What if someone proclaimed that he was the dragon. <br /><br />Would they follow him?<br /><br />Perhaps they follow ppl that truly believe that they are the dragon aswell.<br />(just ranting along)<br />So if the shadow got hold of someone that REALLY thought the was the dragon reborn then perhaps that will be good enough.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">~From beyond the Haze~<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-11 08:41:02
subject: <b>to rathan</b>
body:
think a lot of yourself dont ya<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">uglykidrand<br />&quot;peace favor your sword&quot;<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-24 01:43:14
subject: <b>My views on the subject</b>
body:
Okay, here are my views on the subject.<br /><br />1) The light or the dark can blow the horn.<br /><br />2) Hawkwing knew that Rand was Lews Therin, so no, he wouldn't follow a false dragon.<br /><br />3) Hawkwing tried to attack the Seanchan, but couldn't until the banner was led. He TRIED to attack the Seanchan. He obviously thought he could do it, not very likely if he could only follow the banner. If Mat went to the White Tower and blew the horn right now, would Hawkwing have to sit there until Rand and the banner showed up? No. But IF the banner and the Dragon are there, THEN they must follow it and him. If he isn't there, then whoever blew the horn.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b> <i> KLitke7967 </i> </b></font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-27 05:35:32
subject: <b>birgitte and the horn</b>
body:
will birgitte feel the call of the horn now that she has been &quot;ripped away&quot;? and when the heros are reborn, do the feel it then?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">kiln sedai<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bela.gif" border="0" /> horsemistress extraordinaire <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bela.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> speaking with wolves <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /> waiting for moiraine <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> proud to be a band nerd <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />the watch is not done <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />there is a cow in your shoe.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-07 14:12:45
subject: <b>The Shadowsworn Dragon</b>
body:
The Dragon can be turned from the Light to the Shadow and therefore all the prerequisites are met if he has the banner, they will follow him wherever.  It would be scary but its possible.


created: 2002-04-01 09:21:12
subject: <b>Tia mi aven Moridin isainde vadin</b>
body:
agree whole heartedly.  The heroes of the horn only follow the dragon.  however, i think that they will follow the dragon no matter what side he fights for.  recall that ishy's efforts in the first 3 books are to turn rand to evil, not to kill him.  recall also that 13 dreadlords + 13 myrdraal = they turn someone to evil against his will (introduced in bk 3 with egwene's test for accepted).<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />&quot;TSOROVAN MISAIN YE&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gandalf.gif" border="0" />Arcane Invoker<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gandalf.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />Member of the Shadow Council<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-02 19:20:36
subject: <b>question...</b>
body:
I think that they only follow the Banner if Rand is at the site where the horn was blown. Also I thought that they said whoever sounded the Horn must think of salvation and not glory, and so I was wondering if that was because it wouldn't work for someone wishing glory or if it meant that the person would be in danger of falling into the Shadow. Couldn't the greed for fame and power turn someone to the Shadow? Or atleast cause them to act in foolish/costly way?<br />Oh, I have another question. Is the Dragon the only one bound to the Horn that can use the One Power? I don't remember anyone else that was bound to it being able to channel. Is the Dragon alone in that ability?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-04-02 18:48:05
subject: <b>the banner</b>
body:
I recall when moraine gave rand the banner, she said it was vital and would be important. At the time I thought that it was so he could claim to be the dragon, but what if it is just as important as the horn and not only do you need the horn to control the heros but also the banner, like stated by hawkwing. I think moraines statement is a big clue from the past.


created: 2003-05-31 13:19:01
subject: <b>maybe they could follow shadow</b>
body:
When they were weaved in to the pattern after the horn was blown they said they would follow the dragon and the banner, but if some of the shadow blows the horn how do we know that they wouldn't have said they will follow the shadow. <br /><br />the hunter<br /><br />Gwydion Quatar<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Gwydion Quatar <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br />    Champion of Mankind<br />       Knight of Passion<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-03-20 00:00:00
subject: <b>good theory</b>
body:
Very good theory, I must say. There's one mistake, though, I think. Aside from Bonwhin and Elaida, I believe there <br />was another Red Amyrlin, who was deposed because she was involved in the fall of Manetheren in the Trolloc Wars.


created: 2001-03-23 00:00:00
subject: <b>Mr Amalason and the Red Ajah</b>
body:
There was another Amyrlyn but i cant remember who either! <br />She was involved in Manetherens fall, but as thats where Mat<br />and Perrin were born (and Rand bought up) maybe this <br />signifies that ALL Red Ajah are useless. Manetheren was always a <br />thorn in the shadows side. Perhaps the Reds are terrible<br />Amrylins because they hate all men (we're not that bad)<br />


created: 2001-03-24 00:00:00
subject: <b>Red Amyrlin</b>
body:
The Red in question was Tetsuan and she did, indeed, go to prove all Reds (or most, e.g 98%) are totally and utterly useless by stuffing up bigtime ane letting Manetheren fall to the Shadow. And the Queen was an AS too! Mind you, she had married her Warder...the King...so she was probably Green ...which is probably why Tetsuan was so pleased to get rid of her. Hypothetically, anyway. I think it is entirely possible Amalasan was the Dragon, but I reckon that he was just ta'veren. The paatern spun him out so Artur Hawkwing could rise, so the present day nations could be formed, etc....and to get rid of that other pesky Red Amyrlin, Bonwhin! <img src="images/wink.gif" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Ruriha <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-03-24 00:00:00
subject: <b>Damn those Reds!</b>
body:
Damn those Reds! Always trying to pull us Greens down! <img src="images/wink.gif" /><br />Oh well!<br />I totally agree with this post! I think Guaire was LTT reborn, as is Rand. They say a soul linked to the wheel, as the Dragon is, can be spun out numerous times. Even though Amalasan was the dragon, the time was not right for Tarmon Gai'don, so he lived and died like any man. Well, like any ta'veren. <br />Good job, and nice proof!<p>Alesandra Sedai<br />Green Ajah<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Alex<br /><br />The prodigal daughter<br />Estranged sister, wife, lover, owner, biter <br />Reformed bad girl <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />&quot;The skin isn't all that important as a boundary&quot; ~ B.F. Skinner</font></p><p></p>


created: 2001-07-01 01:25:10
subject: <b>hmmmm.....</b>
body:
If Artur Hawkwing and LTT have met countless times (I'm not going to get into who the other people were, and why Artur calls him Lews Therin instead of some earlier incarnation)Then what I want to know is - who has Artur Hawkwing been reborn as? I've seen theories of him as Mat, or Perrin...but what about in other ages?


created: 2001-07-29 17:30:23
subject: <b>Mat against Artur</b>
body:
In one of Mats remindings, he said he has fought against Artur Hawkwing in the following wars: <br />At a pass and as leader of one of the last defeated armies. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-08-28 06:03:42
subject: <b>Mat saw Hawkwing when he sounded the horn...</b>
body:
so Mat is not Hawkwing reborn.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Inner_Turmoil <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Inner: of or relating to the mind or spirit <br /><br />Turmoil : a state or condition of extreme confusion, agitation, or commotion <br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-07 05:26:41
subject: <b>Those memories....</b>
body:
Mat also staes that he remembers fighting alongside Hawkwing, but that is of no consequence as his memories are not his own from previos lives, they are from other people given to him on request by those finn types. <br />Also i beleive that the dragon is not bound in the same way as the other heroes. Birgitte tells Elayne that each time she was spun out she was really good with a bow and not with a sword and all that nonsense. This tells us that the heroes who are bound to the wheel have the same traits in each life. If Rand lived that kind of role as LTT wouldn't he be a great captain, or at least a moderately good battle tactician?<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I am dead <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /><br />I mean Death <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" />The Darkness to <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> balance the light<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" />More than a little insane<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br />AND MY HERO TALKS IN CAPITALS<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /><br /> <br />     &#223;&#174;&#220;&#169;&#163;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />The grave is no bar to my call - inscription on a mighty HORN</font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-09 00:59:14
subject: <b>The Signs that THE Dragon has been Reborn</b>
body:
1: NO false Dragons after one declares himself<br />2: Appears at Toman Head<br />3: Born on Dragonmount<br />4-99: etc...etc...Karaethon Cycle.<br /><br />Amalasan was signalled by none of these.<br />And all of these mean that Lews Therin has been reborn and NOTHING else, not Last Battle or anything.<br /><br />If Lews Therin had been reborn as Guaire Amalasan, some prophecy would have come true.<br />


created: 2001-10-27 01:10:04
subject: <b>Red Amyrlin</b>
body:
Yep, that red amyrlin was Tetsuan, but since the fall of Manetheren had nothing to do with Dragons, I don't really think that's relevant now.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> The Mad Darkfriend <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> Fire-face <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Elan Morin Tedronai, Lord of the Dark, Sightblinder, Keeper of the Dragons</font><p></p>


created: 2001-12-18 12:32:24
subject: <b>Guaire = Logain?</b>
body:
This could just be coincidence (in these books, yeah right), but in the beginning of Book 5 Fires of Heaven, Where Suian, Leane, and Min have been captured for burning the barn and cows, Min is recalling everyone picking there incognito names. SS wouldn't let him, but Logain wanted to call himself Guaire....<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Long Live Taimandred! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sammy.gif" border="0" /><br />Cybrmnk <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gandalf.gif" border="0" /> -One of the last remaining believers in the Taimandred theory.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-12-29 18:33:39
subject: <b>On the number of Aes Sedai in Amalasan's taking...</b>
body:
In LoC, I think, Loial is giving some numbers of Aes Sedai that have been defeated by past false Dragons. He says something about Amalasan gentling two out of six attacking him, not mentioning what happened to the other four (note: I'm doing this all out of the top of my head, the numbers might be wrong). It is possible that this is when they confronted him during the Battle of Endersole - note that the presence of ta'veren Hawkwing may have played a role there too, otherwise he might have matched more of them. Come to think of it, the Guide states that Amalasan could match what the AS did with the Power during the battle easily, so it is quite probable there were just those six AS. OTOH, it wouldn't be much when trying to capture a channeler of his strength... <br />Something else: it has been said that one of the things you have to do to be identified as Dragon is be at Toman's Head. While of course the prophecies about this were only fulfilled by Rand, it might be interesting to note that Darmovan, Amalasan's homeland, was situated exactly there, and it is very possible that Amalasan was actually born on Toman's Head. That same person has also said that Amalasan would have fulfilled some prophecies if he was really LTT reborn. I don't agree - he wasn't there to fulfil the prophecies, but to prepare the fulfilling of some prophecies, as has been explained by others. He wasn't there as Dragon Reborn, but as LTT reborn - no more, but surely no less either.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Legolas<br /><br />Favourite wotmaniac of the one and only Clover <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />- Why is it so damn cold?! <br />- Because Hades had very poor social skills and thought, &quot;Dating... abduction? Same thing, right?&quot; <br />~ Aubrey and Jason, Something Positive<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-24 20:55:03
subject: <b>no way</b>
body:
I just wanna say that Guaire couldnt be LTT because<br /><br />1)Anyone could possibly be a taveren, or not a taveren<br />it remains to be seen if rand will even be taveren still by the end of the series.....Taveren is not a permanent condition<br /><br />2)Its prophecied that when the dragon is reborn he WILL fight the LAST battle, and just because Guaire indirectly fought Ishamael by facing Artur Hawkwing that hardly qualifies as the LB<br /><br />3)The dragon always seems to pop up when humanity needs him the most ie the end of an age<br />Guaires time period certainly doesnt qualify<br /><br />4) two words..........FALSE DRAGON<br /><br />5)Ishamael wouldve been going directly after GA instead of laying by the wayside and whispering in Hawkwings ear I mean he wanted rand and LTT to serve the DO right<br /><br />6)On an unrelated sidenote what the hell is wrong with Ish anyway only partially bound for 3000 yrs and the lazy fool couldnt even find one of the seals<br /><br />Anywho I just dont think it makes sense for LTT to be reborn and only gain recognition as a villianous False Dragon......sure Rands a tad villianous from time to time but at least every one knows that he really is the dragon


created: 2002-07-03 12:39:48
subject: <b>Hawkwing's Ta'vern</b>
body:
Maybe Amasalan was such an influential figure not because of his own merits but because of Hawkwing. It is unlikely that Hawkwing, a prince of a minor country Shandelle, would have got to power without Amasalan. Maybe his ta'vereness pulled the pattern into a shape that would allow him to rise to fame and power. He is after all the strongest ta'veren since the Breaking apart from Rand himself. And Rand's ta'vereness has brought allies and enemies which he has needed from across the world. An example of an ally would be Bashere who experienced Rand's pull from Saldaea or an enemy could be Fain whose stabbing of Rand may have given him the idea to cleanse saidin.


created: 2002-09-10 17:59:08
subject: <b>Prophecies are there for a reason</b>
body:
As much as I enjoyed reading this theory, I must respectfully disagree for 2 resons:<br /><br />1: From what I have read Guaire has fulfilled none of the prophecies of the Dragon. This would be akin to saying that I am Christ, without having met any of the prophetic requirements of the Bible. (BTW, I make no claims to being Christ)<br /><br />2: Someone mentioned that Guaire was only LTT reborn and not the Dragon Reborn. This is impossible since LTT is the Dragon.<br /><br />I do, however, beleive that Guaire may have been ta'veren(sp?) and that he may have helped usher in the correct setting for the true Dragon Reborn (Rand) to be able to succeed in his destiny.<br /><br /><br />Thantos


created: 2005-04-13 20:32:25
subject: <b>Sound theory</b>
body:
Sure, Guaire didn't fulfill any prophecies, but that's because he wasn't the Dragon Reborn, right? That doesn't necessarily mean he wasn't LTT reborn. Rand is the Dragon Reborn, but how often have we seen that used as an honourific? I find it laughable that so many people believe that Lews Therin's soul was only spun out ONCE over the course of 3000 years. Nowhere was it stated that the Dragon would be Reborn ONLY to fight the Last Battle, just that he would. And the Prophecies never said he wouldn't be born before then either. Take that, you non-believers!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Of course you should fight fire with fire! You should fight EVERYTHING with fire!<br /><br />-Al'Gai, the Son of Battle<br />A.K.A. Anaro Ravenclaw,<br />Technomancer for the next Millenium <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/borg.gif" border="0" /><br />Revenant Bounty Hunter Extroidinaire <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2006-02-13 05:10:29
subject: <b>Voice in rands head</b>
body:
Every male channeler gets after a while the voice of his previous life. The taint on &lt;i&gt;saidin&lt;i&gt; brakes the barriers between this life and the previous(I think most of you agree with that by now).<br />So if Rand was Guaire Amalasan, should'nt he be hearing him in his head instead of LTT?<br /><br />Just a thought.


created: 2001-04-20 00:00:00
subject: <b>Raised allready?</b>
body:
I kinda disagree, who says that Mantheren hasn't been raise?  After all, the banner has been raised, and even if it is just the Two Rivers, isn't that part of Mantheren?  You don't need the same boundries as before, and if people realize what has been created, I'm pretty sure that without many exceptions, they will come to Perrin asking to become a part of it.  All you would really need would be to have gleemen tell the story of Mantheren, after all, look at what happened when Moiraine told of the fall of Mantheren, an entire town was shut up and completly spell bound!  If she can do that, imagine what a gleeman or two could do.<br /><img src="images/aessedai.gif" />


created: 2001-05-31 10:04:04
subject: <b>Not yet raised</b>
body:
I agree with a good portion of the original post. Perrin has the Two Rivers, he has Ghealdan. I'm not too worried about the Altaran portion of ancient Manetheren, it doesn't need the exact same boundaries it might have had two millenia ago. The major roadblock is still Andor, and the appearance of rebellion against the Lion Throne.<br /><br />Once everyone else gathers around Perrin that I believe will (Galad and most of his whitecloak division, Masema's men, possibly the Band of the Red Hand, Gawyn and the Younglings), they will overcome the Shaido, rescue Faile, Alliandre and Morgase. In gratitude, Elayne will give all of Western Andor to the New Manetheren, and the people will raise Perrin their reluctant King.<br /><br />Well, it could happen.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> Call_me_Tim <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> Call me Tim <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-19 11:46:47
subject: <b>Gatherinig around Perrin...</b>
body:
DAMN, did you go far afield to get him a big army or what?  So Galad and the Whitecloaks (remember their big hit from the 80s, 'Might is Right'?) and the Prophet's Dragonsworn rabble will band together under Perrin?  THAT I gotta RAFO to believe.  And I also think there's no way Mat and the Band get involved in that, especially since, I assume, the Band is currently heading towards Tar Valon at a good clip, and Mat is still trying to get away from Ebou Dar.<br /><br />No, I believe it's more likely that Perrin tries to get in and out with Faile, maybe even gets caught, which precipitates the final split between the Shaido Wise Ones and Sevana.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">The Great Crabuki<br /><br />Father of Emmaline Sedai <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Husband to Jennlene the Queenlene <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/berelain.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Making pretty babies since August 2001 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-17 00:10:49
subject: <b>Perrin will never get Baerlon</b>
body:
Elayne is too much of a stuck up ninny to just let Perrin have Baerlon, even if it will make the world like a million times better, by putting heart and spirit back into the people of central whater-you-wanna-call-it-continent.  yet another reason I hate Elayne.  i mean jeez<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /> Friend of the Light<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" />Subject of Perrin Aybara<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" />Friend of Jaim Aybara<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" />Soldier for the Two Rivers army<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-01 19:26:36
subject: <b>hmmm</b>
body:
I agree with Bad Ash. Perrin could say he already has raised Manetheren.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Look whos talking you surrendered just like france!&quot;<br />&quot;Maybe we should try to reach a compramise, WHY IM NOT FRENCH!&quot;<br />&quot;A true warrior is prepared even in times of peace&quot;<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />Evil Incarnate<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-06 13:55:31
subject: <b>Don't forget Saldea</b>
body:
Don't forget that Manetheran also encompassed Saldea, and Faile's dad wanted to make sure that Perrin was not after &quot;the Broken Crown&quot;.<br /><br />Is this not the crown of Manetheren?  Which has been in the keeping of the Queens of Saldea, whom Faile could be the next, being next in line after her father?  And perhaps Perrin in some way fits the bill of a consort of a Queen of Saldea who could claim the crown?  But since Perrin doesn't know about it, Bashere lets it go.<br /><br />Maybe Perrin got Saldea as part of Manetheren when he married Faile...


created: 2001-03-20 00:00:00
subject: <b>An aside to Raserei</b>
body:
As for what Weiramon has done, it comes to my mind that Suroth was a little too aware of Rand's battle strategy in PoD, almost as if she had someone giving her numbers and positions.  Weiramon always manages to be where Rand is, if only because Rand thinks he's too stupid to leave behind to screw things up.  Just a few thoughts.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>&quot;I suppose if we couldn't laugh at things that don't make sense, we couldn't react to a lot of life.&quot;</i><br /><br />- Hobbes the tiger</font><p></p>


created: 2001-03-29 00:00:00
subject: <b>i DON'T THINK SO...oops i don't think so...</b>
body:
Weiroman definately isn't an informant for Suroth.  She was just expanding into altara, not trying to attack rand.  The people from Seanchan marching through Altara left days before Rand started his campaign into Altara.  Obviously they had no intentions of meeting such a force as the Lord Dragon so Suroth never really had any idea to send an informant for information on Rand's attack.  Wieramon could still be the Darkfriend though.  I am just doubting the post above me.


created: 2001-04-02 00:00:00
subject: <b>DIG IT YO!</b>
body:
SO if Weir is a DF (oosquai buzz is no good for spelling)<p>DIG IT YO!</p><p>   So if Weiramon aint pumping Suroth full of info, giving her prime cut on the down low. What's he up to? What things could he do?</p><p>   See ya gotta break it down the underground sound, get your hand in that pungent mound.</p><p>   Tarien lords be getting all high and mighty, wanna say bye bye to Rand Al'Mighty. Bust it revolution hits the land, break out the swords but where's the Red Band?</p><p>   See Weir is all kooky actin like a mooky. If the Dragon thinks that I am dumb, if the Dragon Lord thinks my mind is numb, Play a game with each two hands, war is easier in less than two lands.</p><p>   Sits with rebs put Al'Thor down, sits with the supporters spreading patriotism around. Bro and foe I play both sides they never do know.</p><p>   Down with revolt, up to the loyal, I spread chaos like a festering boil. Me and order be like water and oil.</p><p>   If you play on both to the side, you got yourself a pretty high stake. If your neck should divide you get a pretty big shake. Lanfdayne say your jig is up, your not worthy to catch your blood in a cup.</p><p>   Stick to the sides and let it all hang out, Al'thor gonna freak, Cauthon gonna shout. Blood and bloody flaming ashes, you got the wound I got the lashes.</p><p>   Country city, they will get broke. All and all it is a pity. What did you think this was a joke. Bro vs. bro, father gainst son, but who is a foe, they all come undone. </p><p>   Yeah a dark friend did die this very day, but the damage done already been dealt, nothing left for him to say and still the country bears his welt.</p><p><br />DIG IT YO!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font></p><p></p>


created: 2001-06-16 21:48:31
subject: <b>Hmm....maybe....</b>
body:
Maybe, its not a question of what Weiramon's done as a DF, but what he hasn't done? Perhaps he was beheaded for incompetance?<br /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/clown.gif" border="0" /> Look, its Pennywise! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/clown.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-07-23 13:50:18
subject: <b>A little far-fetched....</b>
body:
I have read the series through, several times, and thought I had a few things figured out. After reading some of the postings here in the Theories post, I realize that I tend to get lost in the story and read over some important information. I completely missed the Anath=Sem connection.....<br /><br />Anyway....When Rand is battling the seanchan, he makes note, several times, that Weimeron's clothes are spotless (even after battles). We know that Asmodean used the power to keep his clothes free from all dust. Could it be possible that Weimeron is Demandred? Could he be carelessly using his power to keep his appearance clean, or does he just ride into battle waving his sword, then fall back and let the real soldiers bleed? I am really fuzzy about the family origins of Weim and whether it is possible. It would explain a few things, but.......<br /><br />Oh! ...and we tend to be thinking about the companions being reborn physically. But the Wheel uses things when it needs them. With some of the balefire that has been thrown around, and some of the pattern destroyed, the wheel could have spun the heroes out. Reborn not in the physical sense, but in the &quot;reborn Christian&quot; sense.<br /><br />I love all the theories I have ben reading, regardless of my agreement level. Keep thinking....you are making the reading more enjoyable for me!


created: 2002-02-22 12:00:05
subject: <b>Nah...</b>
body:
Too stupid (Weiramon, not you).<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" />Karlaan <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/myrddraal.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-07 16:23:49
subject: <b>I hope not</b>
body:
I hope it wasn't Weiramon who got beheaded (although it was he who sprang to mind when I read it), because i'd like to actually see him die and know it's him.  Malingering git that he is.  I like that word.  Malingering<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Mortecareus<br /><br />Everyone is someone else's weirdo<br /><br />Madness takes it's toll.  Please have exact change<br /><br />ASCII stupid question, get a stupid ANSI<br /><br />There are 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary, and those who don't</font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-11 22:19:08
subject: <b>Weiramon DF but maybe not yet dead</b>
body:
I agree Weiramon is a DF. Look at what he and Gedwyn were overheard saying... Weir doesn't care who Gedwyn is. He won't take more risks without a direct command from .....(one of the Forsaken).<br /><br />He doesn't sound too stupid there. I wouldn't take risks on Gedwyn's say so either. He's pretending to be stupid, I think, so he can screw up Rand's plans. So he's risking a lot that no one's going to put 2 and 2 together.  And Rand has done so.<br /><br />As far as Cyndane shortening him, I dunno.  When Cyndane felt the Choedan Kal being used, she gated blindly in and was NORTH of where Rand's forces were. Just as Dem came in from the south.  That's what gave me the impression that Cyndane was mucking around in the Borderlands, where there haven't been any Forsaken lately ( not definitely, anyway).<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> Linda Sedai <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Proud member of the Embroiderer's Guild of the White Tower<br /><br /><b><font color="red">FAQ admin</font></b> </font>'cos the FAQ is where it's at.<br /><br /><b>Currently working on:</b> my 70th FAQ<p><a href="http://13depository.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">The thirteenth depository : A Wheel of Time blog</a></p><p></p>


created: 2002-10-24 14:20:57
subject: <b>Weiramon's doing</b>
body:
&quot;If this is true, though, then what has Weiramon done behind Rand's back, being a Darkfriend?&quot;<br /><br />Well, being the idiot that he is, he probably didn't notice Rand was gone, and kept talking babbling superlative flatteries to the air.<br /><br />Seriously, though, it makes sense, and might make some of his seeming stupidity much more reasonable (For example, he tried to maximize Rand's losses at the hillforts in Illian by leaving the foot behind on purpose).<br /><br />Of course, it could be that he is just a knucklehead that was born into a noble family. But that makes you think - How did he stay alive till then, since he's not young, and I doubt a really dumb High Lord can live long.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;The right to be heard does not include the right to be taken seriously&quot; - Hubert H. Humphrey</font><p></p>


created: 2003-05-07 04:39:16
subject: <b>One problem</b>
body:
Wieramon shows back up in WH, someone in the Sun Palace mentioned that Wieramon and some Cairhein lady were even working together.  Sorry that I don't have the quote, but Wieramon is definately alive.  The question of if he is or not a DF is up for debate though.


created: 2003-05-19 19:02:19
subject: <b>do u mean CoT?</b>
body:
in WH, it ends with the whole hill top scene, and if you really meant WH, then that does not prove that he's alive since wherever that is mentioned is before it is said that Cyndane kills Weraimon (or whoever it is)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Stone walls do not a prison make,<br />Nor iron bars a cage;<br />Minds innocent and quiet take<br />That for hermitage;<br />If I have freedom in my love<br />And in my soul am free,<br />Angels alone, that soar above,<br />Enjoy such liberty.&quot; -Richard Lovelace</font><p></p>


created: 2001-03-23 00:00:00
subject: <b>Elayne's Twins</b>
body:
Wasnt there a couple of Heroes of the Horn who had masks?<br />Just because its Elaynes kiddies, doesnt mean they can't <br />be Heroes reborn (maybe its more likely)<br />Maybe its just me, I can't find the relevant bit, I think <br />the taint has me........<p>Sorry, i forgot its cleansed</p>


created: 2001-06-18 10:40:06
subject: <b>To Raserai...</b>
body:
we haven't seen 89 births so far, so maybe there ARE twins just waiting to be born... Some Aiel are twins, I think...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b><font color="dark yellow">A</font><font color="red">n</font><font color="orange">an</font><font color="red">k</font><font color="dark yellow">e</font></b><br />Creator of the <i>Glistering and Shining New and Improved Advanced Warder Spoon</i><br />Warder to Corail<br />Disciple-restaurator of WOOPAH!&#8482;<br />Vice-President of <b>BucketBaby's</b> fanclub -She Rocks!<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-08 04:19:54
subject: <b>overlooked fact</b>
body:
rand will kill anyone related to him, especialy his children!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">i'm bored</font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-06 16:02:19
subject: <b>Doesn't Much Matter</b>
body:
Sure it could happen and yes Elayne's kids will be twins.  My thought on the black and white masks is just that it means they will be able to channel.


created: 2002-02-18 23:34:16
subject: <b>The Twins</b>
body:
I think the author has a great point about E kids, black and white masks, black tower and white tower, two channlers, and he's totally right on with the whole hearlds of the new Era, after the bore is closed it will be the new era and how like Jordan would it be to have the frist channlers of a new age be Rand's kids.


created: 2002-02-19 17:27:46
subject: <b>right on</b>
body:
Hey great idea with the twins.  But what about Melaine? Isn't she due to have twins as well? I thought I remember something of the sort... <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="Plum">Gena Sedai</font></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-28 23:10:26
subject: <b>The masks</b>
body:
where in the books does it mention the heroes of the horn and the black and white masks.  i would like to reread this.  i guess i have never picked up on it.


created: 2002-05-04 00:18:16
subject: <b>to gena Sedai</b>
body:
the way i read it Melaine's twins are both girs. i may be wrong I have to re-read.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Thinking of things for sig's is hard</font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-07 15:26:51
subject: <b>Both are able to channel...</b>
body:
I like your theory. To expand on it a little bit, perhaps, both are able to channel. They may bring balance to the relationship of male and female channelers by ruling both towers.  One for the Black Tower, &#8220;Black mask&#8221;, and the other for the White Tower, &#8220;White mask&#8221;. They may bring peace in the new age by ruling it. Who better than the children and heirs of the Dragon and queen of two realms.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;What I meant to say isn't what I said, but what I said is what I meant.&quot; --A day in my life</font><p></p>


created: 2003-03-24 14:26:31
subject: <b>Wrong. The masks are red and black.</b>
body:
The masks are red and black.  One is Shivan (obviously a reference to Shiva) and the other is Calian (Kali).  One is the Destroyer and one is the Chooser, but I can't remember which is which.  Their birth signals the dawn of a new age.  Maybe the twice dawns the day is the dawn of the day (&quot;Once for the morning&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> and the other dawn is the dawn of the Fourth Age (&quot;and once for birth&quot;, i.e., the birth of the twins).


created: 2005-08-14 02:01:34
subject: <b>Shivan and Calian</b>
body:
They're mentioned in Crown of Swords when Mat recognizes Birgitte, but they're just brother and sister, not twins.<br /><br />&quot;...Shivan the Hunter behind his black mask.  He was said to herald the end of Ages, the destruction of what had been and the birth of what was to be, he and his sister Calian, called the Chooser, who rode red-masked at his side.&quot;<br /><br />Not saying that they couldn't be twins, so your idea is plausible.  Of course they could be reborn somewhere else entirely, or even already have been reborn.


created: 2009-07-27 19:54:37
subject: <b>disagree...</b>
body:
I will have to disagree with your idea of the symbolism behind the masks. as stated above, the girl had a RED mask. I have a hard time finding a connection between a red mask and the white tower. I will grant that her children may be the heroes spoken of, but as to the symbolism behind the masks, due to the falseness of your theory, I will have to disagree.


created: 2001-03-28 00:00:00
subject: <b>Astounding</b>
body:
I just find it astounding that after all of the idiotic theories i've read about Mat (marrying moiraine, etc.) I could still find one that.....seems to be pretty dang good.  Keep up the good work!<img src="images/angel.gif" /> <img src="images/aessedai.gif" /> <img src="images/devil.gif" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />the lover of light and wisdom<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" />the all-seeing eye<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />the wandering wotmaniac<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-04-27 00:00:00
subject: <b>Tylin doesn't know that Tuon is Dot9M</b>
body:
Mat had talked to Tylin about Dot9M, but Tylin didn't know anything about it. Tuon wore a veil because she chose not to come officially as Dot9M. For some odd reason, of which I have no clue why, she wanted it to be secretive. Only the Seanchan know that Tuon is Dot9M. The fact was kept a secret from the time Tuon arrived at Ebou Dar.<p>The rest of the post is excelent. <img src="images/smile.gif" /></p><p>Wenrick<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font face="Palatino Linotype"> ~ Wenrick ~ <br />Journal updated 20-NOV-08.</font><br /><br /><i>&quot;. . . we'll keep feeding you small doses of socialism until you finally wake up and find you already have communism.&quot;</i><br />~ Nikita Khrushchev</font></p><p></p>


created: 2001-05-21 14:22:32
subject: <b>re: competition to marry the daughter</b>
body:
I like the theory, it works as far as I'm concerned - except that Tylin probably didn't know about the &quot;fortelling&quot; calling Mat &quot;the Fox&quot; it was more likely refrence to his medalion and ring and all the other fox connections you mentioned that she would have known about.<br />As for Tuon getting some hair - she probably will have to... Kinda hard to carry a Seanchan noble around &quot;against her will&quot; (yeah right... <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> ) when it's so obvious who she is. Tuon's gonna be growing out her hair weather she likes it or not, I'm sure of it.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br />&quot;you wouldn't threaten. You'd do it, your threats are just announcements of what you'll do&quot; ~MQJ about me. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-13 07:26:28
subject: <b>well well well</b>
body:
read the bit where tuon is on the ship......... Lydia is the damane!!!!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I am dead <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /><br />I mean Death <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" />The Darkness to <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> balance the light<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" />More than a little insane<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br />AND MY HERO TALKS IN CAPITALS<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /><br /> <br />     &#223;&#174;&#220;&#169;&#163;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />The grave is no bar to my call - inscription on a mighty HORN</font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-01 19:45:00
subject: <b>Penance</b>
body:
The reason she was hiding her status as Duaghter of the Nine Moons was as penance for having Lydia beaten


created: 2002-07-05 11:56:00
subject: <b>hairless</b>
body:
okay people, what is wrong with having no hair?  n my opinion i dont think Tuon will grow her hair out because thats how mat would like her.  We all know couples with RJ usually are opposite of what the characters actually want


created: 2005-02-21 12:15:14
subject: <b>no...</b>
body:
<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /> doesnt always do that. perrin&amp;faile, not really, a bit. well who cares about him anyway...but, egwene? no. Rand? no. Morgase? no. anyonelseIforgot? no. It doesnt happen that often.<br /><br />For those who couldnt figure this out, this is to the person above me.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">-Sabin<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-03-21 00:00:00
subject: <b>That's a lot of Blood...</b>
body:
If the remnant of the remnant is Avi's babies, than picture this: the whole Aiel Nation going on Shayol Ghul to spill their guts there <img src="images/dead.gif" /> ... that will make a lot of blood.<p>The DO will be d@mn proud of himself in doing such a massacre and Rand will have a pretty good reason to hide himself after such a carnage (maybe the beggar viewing??? <img src="images/biggrin.gif" /> ).</p><p>Anyways, that whole Aiel nation getting the beating of their lives just isn't realistic and if that's what happen, then I'll be REALLY disappointed...</p><p><img src="images/devil.gif" /> Catch ya all later <img src="images/aessedai.gif" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /> He Who Comes With The Oosquai <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> Crazy Frenchman Extraordinaire <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /> Unbonded Blademaster of the Spoon <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-blue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> Proud poster of the &quot;Slayer Killed Asmo&quot; theory <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /></font></p><p></p>


created: 2001-03-22 00:00:00
subject: <b>RAND'S FAMILY BLOOD</b>
body:
I'm not saying this is what will happen, its just a thought.<p>Lord Luc is Rand's uncle. Right now he is being controled by some one. Some believe it is Isam.</p><p>My teory is Luc will breake free of Isam's control and sacrafice himself in the last battle on the slopes of Shayol Ghul. Luc looks just like Rand. We know this from WH when Egwen and Elayne see him spying on them in the World of Dreams. Maybe I should say Rand looks just like Luc.</p><p>Just a thought.</p><p>Oh, just thought of something else.<br />Egwen "dreamed seeing Logain stepping over Rand's dead body but When she touched him it fell apart into ashes as if it was not really him. Maybe thats symbolism for it being Luc.</p><p>I know its way out there.<img src="images/tongue.gif" /> But thats it.</p>


created: 2001-03-22 00:00:00
subject: <b>Face the Facts...</b>
body:
Why are people trying to find a loophole in the prophesy so Rand can live a happy ending in either his own body of someone else's.<br />People also say the Aiel, Galad, Luc, or even his not-born children will take the fall for him.  Isn't it possible that Rand could actually<br />die at Tar'mon Gaidon?  For good?  Everyone says they like happy endings but I, for one, would think it would be more realistic, and<br />more artistic to have the hero fated to die to actually die.  Wars this epic and large aren't without casualties.<br />Others I could imagine dying are; Lan, Faile, Verin, Davram, Dobraine, Cadsuane, Gawyn, Galad, Alanna and Aram.<br />Please don't ask me for proof on those names, cause there is none, it's just a feeling I have.  My point is, I would be far more satisfied<br />with the series if Rand did in fact die in the end, and the Dark One forever destroyed, and the Wheel of Time shattered to continue in a linear fashion.<br />And the entire story slowly being forgotten until it was lost in the sands of time...


created: 2001-04-11 00:00:00
subject: <b>it is his blood!!!</b>
body:
with the way that rand removed the taint, don`t you think it`s obvious that his never healing wound filled with dark one`s evil + Padan Fain`s evil is probably going to pop , pouring a mixture that will defeat the dark one / seal the bore. I think the aiel theory is a little too complicated!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> Pastor of the church of the probable opinions <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" />  marked with the dreaded LVIII  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" />  bearer of the monolith  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> Irish man of good Celtic stock <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> ready to answer the call of the horn <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> Fourth Letter Telamon <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-04-23 00:00:00
subject: <b>DO killing DO?</b>
body:
So what you're saying is that the DO will kill himself?  But if his body is carrying two taints, and he destroyed the DO's tain't before, why wouldn't he just do it to his wounds?  If you look at it this way, the cleansing and TG go hand in hand, so that maybe the cleansing was actually practice for TG?  But then, he would need a sedai (or a very strong wilder with great control) with him, which might come into play with Moiraine, because, correct me if I'm wrong, he was told he couldn't win without her, so could she be a key with this?  *I apologize for anyone that I'm confusing, heck, I'm confusing myself*  That together they would turn the DO's taint onto the DO, causing the two evils to fight against each other (which is the nature of evil, so that makes sense) thereby destroying any taint of the DO and the DO in one blow?<br />We can only hope, and pray that I never log on again to confuse the world like I just did. <img src="images/aessedai.gif" /> <img src="images/jester.gif" />


created: 2001-06-06 00:56:15
subject: <b>blood</b>
body:
I have lost a considerable amount of blood from a cut on a tuna can, and ended up without even losing a finger (almost lost the finger, 4 stiches).  There is a heck of a lot of blood in 1 human body.<br /><br />Rands sacrifice of blood on the rocks could very well be his own blood, without him bleeding to death.  Thor (the Norse God, possibly where Jordan got the name Al'Thor) loses his hand in his biggest battle he is in after he wins.<br /><br />I believe Rand will somehow survive, I have always thought 'blood on the rocks' was far to general a term to take his death seriously.


created: 2001-07-21 10:07:06
subject: <b>He won't die at Shayol Ghul</b>
body:
I really have no idea of what to think about this &quot;his blood on the rocks...&quot;-thing. But what I do know is that sofar Jordan has been playing whith words to make us believe we know the answer, but we don't. So why make it simple now? Maybe just to fool us once more...<br /><br />Jordans truth may not be the truth you think you hear...<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-08-21 13:03:54
subject: <b>His blood on the rock</b>
body:
We all know that Jordan uses many mythological and Judeo-Christian beliefs in his books. If one has read the Bible  then  the blood of the lamb(Jesus) was sacrificed to wash away the sin from the well and bring the promise of heaven.(no I am not a Zealot). It could be as simple as that Rand must make a willing sacrifice of himself to free his people from the shadow of the dark one. Noone says he has to do but the blood itself could be symbol of him sacrificing himself to save his land.  Just a  odd thought. <br /><br />Random <br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Random Gaidin <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/myrddraal.gif" border="0" /><br />El Coyote <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-31 12:37:36
subject: <b>to go along with the Thor connection</b>
body:
Also, if he did lose his hand as Thor did, perhaps the connection between Elayne and the hot poker could be resolved. she could cauterize his wound with it. it seems that the severed hand is always mentioned in connection with the white-hot/red-hot poker. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-12-02 19:41:03
subject: <b>Remnant of a Remnant</b>
body:
A Remnant of a Remnant is like the leftover of the leftover. Who was left over in the past? The Tuatha'an. They are a remnant of the Aiel past. The Tuatha'an will also be horribly smited, and a remnant of them will survive. . .just a thought.


created: 2002-01-21 19:18:22
subject: <b>Well</b>
body:
This is one instance where I am quite content to RAFO.  Don't ask me why, but whatever the &quot;blood on the rocks&quot; prophecy means literally doesn't really matter because it's not going to be good for our pal Rand, anyway.  So I prefer to sit back and wait this one out.  I will say this, however: if RJ starts writing in infanticide I am going to be seriously pissed.  I think we can all agree that babies getting sacrificed is something we can all do without.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />  Erith  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />The higher, the fewer.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-01 22:47:49
subject: <b>Um...About Thor</b>
body:
In the turmoil of Ragnarok, the Great Serpent that sleeps around the world with it's tail in it's mouth (Hey...that would make a nice ring!) awakens and battles Thor, both are killed during the struggle.  Leastwise that was the way I heard it.<br /><br />So, mayhaps Rand WILL die...then again, RJ doesn't take everything from mythos...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>Hi!  I'm Mat!  I'm just like Mat from the WoT...except I don't have that hat, medallion, sword-spear, and I can't speak the old tongue...although I did dance with one of the Forsaken once...</i><br /><br />-Mat <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-01 21:54:42
subject: <b>Aviendhas's children</b>
body:
This isn't an actual theory , but more of an observation. Min said that there would be something odd about her children, not that they would have some problem.May  Maybe they will be born with some odd talent. Maybe they'll rediscover the song....<br /> Who knows?<br /><br />Geda va


created: 2002-05-02 02:37:39
subject: <b>my personal favourite</b>
body:
I am reasonably content to RAFO..but I do have some ideas which keep coming back about this question...(what does the &quot;blood on the rocks&quot; actually refer to?)<br /><br />I like the idea that the &quot;foretelling&quot; that Elaida had about the royal family of caemlyn (tigraine et al, not morgase as Elaida thinks) being connected to this &quot;blood on the rocks&quot;...and that Galad (being a part of that family) will have a bigger part to play that it would seem.<br /><br />He could lead the whitecloaks ultimately in defence of the dragon..<br /><br />Either Rand or Galad could be injured, or as people have posted here...even the Aiel.<br /><br />I don't want to see child sacrifice...that would turn me right off...but if Rand has to die...I'll be disappointed cos I want to see how Jordan resolves the love triangle thing..but I will live with it. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-05-05 01:45:23
subject: <b>Rand, the blood, and death</b>
body:
Does Rand have to die? Most likely. It seems his soul, when it is reborn, is always fated to die to save the world (JC, Lews Therin, plus more we just don't know of I am sure). His not dying would make a nice happy ending, but I don't believe that is what will happen. RJ has went to great lenghs to make this a believable story, and 'happily ever after' only happens in fairy tales.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Tai'Shar Preussen!<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/seanchan.gif" border="0" /> Der Ritter des Lichtes  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> Lord Protector of the Lady B.Alicia <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-20 16:35:27
subject: <b>hey i think this is good stuff</b>
body:
unlike most of these other guys, i like this theory, it sounds good, and just because the whole aiel nation dies dosent mean rand wont die too ya know, but we will all have to see, thats all there is too it.


created: 2003-01-06 21:57:51
subject: <b>What about Alivia</b>
body:
Doesn't anyone remember that viewing Min had of Aliva (the Saenchan wilder that is strange).  I mean, maybe I missed something in Winter's Heart, but Min said that Alivia would either kill Rand or help him die.  So, recognizing Jordan's love of his characters, because of this, by the last book Rand WILL DIE.  Now, I have absolutely no idea who Aliva really is, and I'd be pissed off if she was just some random Saenchan person.  But I can assure you that Jordan has some really big plans for Aliva.<br />Also look at the end of Winter's Heart.  From Cyndane's view, she see's a tall, blonde woman with a lot of jewelry on. This must be Aliva.  As Cyndane attacks her, the tall woman actually just dissolved the weaves which Cyndane uses and she says that she is much stronger than Cyndane (Lanfear) was before she went to the Aelfinn.  Of course, ter'angreal and angreal are used by Cyndane to explain this.  I'm pretty sure that this is just way to simple for Jordan to do.<br /><br />On a side note, basically the only grandoise explanation I have for Cyndane is that she is actually Morraine come back from the Aelfinn.  (just speculation with no basis behind it)<br />


created: 2003-01-11 08:14:44
subject: <b>Yes he will Die</b>
body:
Rand WILL DIE as the dude who pointed out the alivia thing mentioned that he'll die by the end of the series.. But even if he does die isnt there some part in the Prophecies of the Dragon That says twice dawns the day and Tice to live again ? not sure if thats exactly how it goes but yes im fairly Certain that he'll DIE but he's most likely comming but life!<br /><br />And have any of stop to consider that it might more than on of your theories that will happen at shayel ghul concerning' his blood in the rocks of shayal ghul' ?<br />What im saying is maybe Galad will die maybe many Aiel will die as well and maybe Rand will die on the same day as well Luc and Rand will come back to life..<br /><br />Im sure he will as RJ was foreshadowing someone commming back to life when Rand tried to heal that dead girl on the attack at Tear by the trollocs, It'll probly be flinn or Nyn will the choedan kal and linked but who knows... with just about everything im content to RAFO!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">For every instance of beauty, for every instance of triumph, many souls must be trampled - Hunter S Thomson.</font><p></p>


created: 2007-03-07 03:35:52
subject: <b>A point looked over</b>
body:
While I agree that the mention of &quot;his blood&quot; in the Prophecies may be entirely metaphorical and in fact mean someone related to Rand, I think you may have missed a significant possibility.  <br /><br />The most likely blood relative of Rand's to show up at Shayol Ghul is Luc; there to kill Rand.  Since channeling is dangerous he is an ideal assassin, there.  It would tear Rand up inside to have to kill him, too; the big softy.  He kills his enemies and pretends it doesn't hurt but he won't be able to fool himself over family.  A pretty tragic way to find lost  humanity, but his life should be used as a definition for tragedy in the next edition of Webster's.


created: 2001-04-05 00:00:00
subject: <b>Manetheren Reborn</b>
body:
Mattaz has come to the same conclusion i came to after re-reading the series for the eigth time.  As with the supplanted red-herring of trying to raise Manetheren, being Ta`veren, Perrin will inadvertantly raise the old Nation from the ashes of the Two Rivers, Ghealdan and the Black Hills.  What else has he done since TSR apart from bind and consolidate these lands into one alliance.<p>Faile has been waiting for him to claim his "glory and birth right" ever since they put down the Trolloc invasion via the Way Gate at the old site of Manetheren.  The crown fits in with this and it would bind another large swab of land to Rand.</p>


created: 2001-05-04 00:00:00
subject: <b>New Manetheren</b>
body:
It seems as if Perrin is already well on his way to uniting a New Manetheren.  He already has fealty sworn to him by Ghealdan and his native Two Rivers.  Obtaining Northern Altara and Western Andor (Baerlon area) shouldn't be very difficult, as neither is very tightly held by its current ruler.  Of course, being ta'veren always helps as well.  I think the real question lies in whether New Manetheren will rise before or after Tarmon Gai'don.  Should it be before, then these people just might be stubborn enough to survive the Last Battle as a whole nation.  Even though the original Manetheren was destroyed in that kind of situation, I think that the knowledge of that will only fuel these people's will to survive.  Just recall the effect that Moiraine's story of Manetheren had on Emond's Field.  And that wasn't even a gleeman speaking.  Now imagine if a ta'veren told it...<p>Anyway, should New Manetheren not rise in time for Tarmon Gai'don, I'm sure it will in the years immediately following it.  In either case, I think New Manetheren will serve as a model to lead the way into the New Age to follow, which will probably be somewhat akin to the fabled Age of Legends.  But that is a whole other story for its own....</p>


created: 2001-06-01 10:03:38
subject: <b>New Manetheren</b>
body:
Perrin tacitly owns the Two Rivers, since everyone who lives there refuses to not call him Lord Perrin of the Two Rivers. He owns Ghealdan by Alliandre's vow of fealty. He has the abdicated Queen of Andor as a personal servant. (Though he won't know that until Galad becomes involved, or until Gill or Balwer decide to tell him.) Once the dust settles and Morgase is returned to her home, Elayne will grant a portion of Western Andor to Perrin to complete a kingdom of New Manetheren. <br /><br />I don't see Saldaea being pulled into this, yet there is a small chance of Perrins forces running into the Borderlanders that Elayne has pointed towards Murandy. Something could easily happen that would oblige Tenobia to honor Perrin in some way. Certainly the Broken Crown business has to be resolved one way or another. Jordan doesn't insert a mysterious reference to a major character's family for no reason.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> Call_me_Tim <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> Call me Tim <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-22 16:16:44
subject: <b>I like it I like it I like it I like it I like it I like it I like it</b>
body:
<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b><font color="dark yellow">A</font><font color="red">n</font><font color="orange">an</font><font color="red">k</font><font color="dark yellow">e</font></b><br />Creator of the <i>Glistering and Shining New and Improved Advanced Warder Spoon</i><br />Warder to Corail<br />Disciple-restaurator of WOOPAH!&#8482;<br />Vice-President of <b>BucketBaby's</b> fanclub -She Rocks!<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-29 21:18:42
subject: <b>Me trying to make sense</b>
body:
This makes sense kinda ummm yea oh uh i forgot the rest sorry<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/frown.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Why fear death when your here its not and when its here your not<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-07-06 03:46:28
subject: <b>Wouldn't a crown be broken in two parts?</b>
body:
I can't help but associate Bashere's comment about the broken crown with Nynaeve's experience within the rings when being raised to Accepted. She found herself being told by Lan that, as his wife, she is Queen. Not like they do it in the Southern kingdoms, as they are borderlanders. Saldea is a borderland nation. <br /><br />Bashere mentioned it to Perrin to imply that Perrin was after riches and power. I thought he was making reference to Perrin's sharing of power with Faile should she become Queen. That would also explain why Faile smelled upset at the crown's mention. She knows how skittish he is about being called simply Lord Perrin. How worried he was about her being cousin to a queen. What would he do if he found out that &quot;King Perrin&quot; was a distinct possibility.


created: 2001-08-12 18:48:54
subject: <b>The Hammer Speaks</b>
body:
Bashere definitily asks Perrin about the Broken Crown<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">The Hammer of the Light,<br /><br />By The Grace of the Light,<br /><br />High King of the World,<br /><br />Lord of the Six Gates,<br /><br />Master of the Winds,<br /><br />Artur Hawking</font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-15 12:56:11
subject: <b>Blacksmiths wearing Crowns</b>
body:
I am rereading the entire series and am now in The Great Horn (one of my faves). I ran across this quote from Leane when Rand is being presented to the Amyrlin at Fal Dara. She is talking to Lan before Rand is presented to Siuan<br /><br />tGH, &quot;The Dragon Reborn&quot;, &quot;The world grows stranger every day. I suppose the blacksmith will wear a crown and speak in High Chant.....&quot;<br /><br />I agree that Perrin will eventually wear a crown and the most likely crown to wear would be that of Saldea. Eventually, that crown will expand to be that of all of Manetheren.


created: 2002-01-27 10:49:29
subject: <b>fnink</b>
body:
Im oretty sure the broken crown is the saldean, faile is 2nd in line to the throe, so if tenobia and davram bahere die faile is queen and perrin is king


created: 2002-02-12 14:07:35
subject: <b>Verin also made a comment about that</b>
body:
Verin may have hinted at that too - around the time of his wedding she told Perrin something along the line of &quot;Do you really understand what it means to marry Zarine Bashere?&quot; I once thought that to be a comment on having a Saldaean wife, but now I think it meant something more like &quot;Do you realize that a Saldean consort shares power and along Faile YOU will rule House Bashere and, if Tenobia dies without heir, the whole of Saldaea one day, mister &quot;don't call me a Lord&quot;?&quot;. And for some reason I think that Verin is quite convinced that it will happen...<br /><br />It would make sense that Perrin/Faile will be ruling Saldaea and a New Manetheren before the Last Battle - perhaps by the end of book 10 given that Tenobia and Bashere are now in the middle of the action and something might happen to them.  <br /><br />I'm really not convince that it will stop at that, though, but perhaps. Rand's half brother Galad could lead the South nations and reformed White Cloaks, Perrin holding an extended New Manetheren Empire, perhaps to Berelain would go Illian/Tear and Mayenne, Nynaeve might end up convincing Lan that Rand needs him to raise the banner of Malkier and unite the Eastern bordelands as was hinted at in GH. That leaves a united Andor and Cairhien to the Elayne, the heir of the Damodred and Trakand.  Or all these beautiful people could also unite under Perrin as a new High King of the Westlands, with Mat and Tuon in charge of the Seanchan fighting forces (damanes unleashed), and Egwene and Logain leading a re-united Hall of the Servants behind the Prince of the Morning and his Aiel and Ogier. <br /><br />They'd be about ready to face the Last Battle.... in a couple of books.


created: 2002-04-02 12:53:02
subject: <b>broken crown....</b>
body:
it does mean the crown was literally broken... a broken crown refers to the lack of a direct heir for succession... when tenobia dies, since she doesn't have a kid, then they'll have to start lookin for the closest royal kin... in the same way that the andoran noblette kept tryin to explain to rand how she was more closely related to the royal line than someone else... if elayne were to die the andor would have a broken crown too...<br /><br />it was in LoC when perrin met bashere for the first time when he said &quot;i suppose zarine told you all about my estates and the broken crown&quot;... and of course perrin's reply of &quot;who's zarine?&quot;.... &quot;im not a lord, im just a blacksmith&quot;... thats the point where bashere thinks perrin's a great pick to rule saldea, and to marry his daughter...


created: 2002-08-09 19:10:34
subject: <b>Dudas acerca la corona bashere??</b>
body:
Bueno,la verdad esq yo tampoco se mucho de la antigua corona de los bashere,pero creo q la corona rota a la q se refer&#237;a la visi&#243;n de min es,sin lugar a dudas,la del reino de manetheren.Sobre todo porque sus compatriotas de dos r&#237;os emplean el aguila de manetheren,al final perrin,tras la &#250;ltima batalla,reconstruira el reino de mantehren de las cenizas<br /><br />Saludos del <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-09 14:41:43
subject: <b>Nope.</b>
body:
I like this theory, but Glimmers says otherwise.<br /><br />From Davram Bashere's POV: &quot;<i>Doubtless they had reasons they considered good and sufficient, and doubtless Tenobia shared them. But he knew her; he had taught her to ride, watched her grow up, presented her the Broken Crown when she took the throne.</i>&quot; (GLIMMERS, ADOBE E-BOOK, PAGE 85)<br /><br />Clearly, this quote refers to the crown of Saldaea.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">-iluv2act<br /><br />Actor, singer, and ladies' man extraordinaire!</font><p></p>


created: 2002-11-26 07:33:06
subject: <b>who better to fix a broken crown...</b>
body:
than a blacksmith!<br /><br />And perhaps you are forgetting (post-glimmers) that perhaps Arad Doman is also involved. A stretch maybe.


created: 2004-06-18 18:03:34
subject: <b>saldea has no broken crown.</b>
body:
The broken crown could refer to Manetheren or Malkeri, two broken nations, and in my opinion, it refers to manetheren.  the crown was literally broken in the battle over Aedmonds Field,(Edmonds Field) and was brought North to Saldea, which would have bordered Manetheren (or Malkeri) had the still existed.  Perin will resurect Manetheren, claiming the long lost Manetherans broken crown.<br />But, alsas, you have more proof then I do.<br />           May you find dry feet and a warm fire.<br />                          Terin


created: 2005-06-24 15:54:14
subject: <b>No</b>
body:
The Broken Crown is the Crown of Saldaea. Bashere PRESENTED IT TO TENOBIA, according to her. Why would he do that if it was a Bashere crown? She's not of the House of Bashere.<br /><br />And what does restoring Manetheren have to do with the Broken Crown, whatever it is? Saldaea (now) WAS Basharande (free years) which WAS Jaramdide (ten nations). It's all the same land. You gain NOTHING by differentiating Basharande with Saldaea. And you're forgetting Indrahar, Oman Dashar, Oburun, and Masenashar which were nations BETWEEN Basharande and Dhowlan, Farashelle, Kharendor which were the four lands that Manetheren broke down to in the Free Years.


created: 2006-09-09 06:57:48
subject: <b>Viewing</b>
body:
I believe in EotW Min views a broken crown on Perrin.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Egwene must die.<br />Rand Al'Thor will face her wrath...<br />And laugh in her face!</font><p></p>


created: 2001-03-28 00:00:00
subject: <b>Drop the NORSE crap!</b>
body:
I think every1 needs to drop all the linking between the Norse mythology stuff because its not a factual basis that the wheel of timers are going to end up the same as them.  You're only adding to the confusion and a theory isn't based on opinion, its based on thought and scientific evidence.  K, i'm done...


created: 2001-03-28 00:00:00
subject: <b>Ummm . . .</b>
body:
Ragnarok means Last Battle in German?<br />Well . . no.<br />There's no such word as Ragnarok in German!<br />As far as I recall (loooong time I heard about it) Ragnarok is . . damn, forget which language, but where the norse mythology originates. <img src="images/viking.gif" /><br />Grrr . . forgot.<br />Anyway, Ragnarok isn't German is all I wanted to say.


created: 2001-03-28 00:00:00
subject: <b>Ragnarok and severed hands</b>
body:
Ehhrm... First of all, I want to clear up a few things. Ragnarok, Ragnarök in Swedish, is the last battle between Gods and Giants, men and Gods and so on, and the end of the world as well.<p>As for the viewing of Rand without a hand... (oh, rhyme... <img src="images/wink.gif" /> NOPE!!! It was ELAYNE who had a severed hand and a hot iron rod when Min viewed her in Falme, before they tried to rescue Egwene from the Seanchan. End of discussion.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Emyrlin<br /><i>Who is dwelling in the shadows of the Black Hills...</i></font></p><p></p>


created: 2001-03-29 00:00:00
subject: <b>You missed quite a bit...</b>
body:
After all, Odin hung from Yggdrasil, the TREE OF LIFE, to gain wisdom, and almost died in doing so.  I hope this one is obvious.  There are many other connections to the Norse <img src="images/viking.gif" /> as well that I won't get into.  And there are Arthurian <img src="images/king.gif" /> and obviously Chinese <img src="images/aessedai.gif" /> mythological connections too.<p>It is neat, but it's not the be all and end all of the story.  However, I believe it is important to the story in that it is further proof to the theory that wotworld is just a later age of Earth.  We are the "first age", and therefore know nothing of the wheel of time yet, and the power has yet to be discovered, this is the "time before the power, when men walked with wolves"...both the Norse and the Natives have stories of wolf-kin like happenings, as well as werewolfism.</p><p>Your.Master <img src="images/king.gif" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Your.Master <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /></font></p><p></p>


created: 2001-04-09 00:00:00
subject: <b>Neat, but things are not that obvious</b>
body:
Your essay is very neat. You have missed a few things, though. First, Odin has two ravens with him, but also two WOLVES. Second, i think it funny that Rand is surnamed al'THOR... Third, there could be some connection with Tyr losing his hand WHEN HE PUT IT IN THE MOUTH OF FENRIS TO CHAIN HIM. Fenris (the evil wolf helping the Serpent kill the tree of life) was asked to "test" the new chain the gods had forged (in fact they wanted to chain the wolf). Fenris asked that a god put a hand in Fenris' mouth, so that if the chain was not removed, the god would lose his hand... Tyr was god of justice, and bravest of all gods.<p>Dead heroes go to the Valhalla where they wait the Last Battle (Ragnorak). They will fight alongside the gods against Fenris and the Serpent, but they will lose...</p><p>in short, there are allusions to norse myths in WoT, but everything is NOT straightforward.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b><font color="dark yellow">A</font><font color="red">n</font><font color="orange">an</font><font color="red">k</font><font color="dark yellow">e</font></b><br />Creator of the <i>Glistering and Shining New and Improved Advanced Warder Spoon</i><br />Warder to Corail<br />Disciple-restaurator of WOOPAH!&#8482;<br />Vice-President of <b>BucketBaby's</b> fanclub -She Rocks!<br /></font></p><p></p>


created: 2001-04-13 00:00:00
subject: <b>Fain's Role</b>
body:
While I like the parallel between Fain and Garm (what about Fenrir, out of curiousty?), I am more in favour of the Fain/Gollum idea. I think those two characters have a lot in common, and I'd like to see Fain be the one to stick it to the Dark One during the Last Battle (remember Gollum going into the fire in Lord of the Rings? Anyone thinking Pit of Doom here?). Anyway, just a random thought. . .<img src="images/aessedai.gif" />


created: 2001-06-03 13:59:49
subject: <b>just semantics</b>
body:
Ragnarok hasn't happened yet.  It will be the end of the world and the entirety of the battle has been foretold.  Nothing really major, it just sorta tweaks me when I hear everyone refering to it in past tense.<br /><br />I'm not certain but I'm pretty sure the whole Tyr/wolf thing is destined to happen just prior to Ragnarok also.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">TiCaudata<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-01 22:08:37
subject: <b>no</b>
body:
ragnorok has happened. Dont you know anything? According to mythology, the old world had a sun named sol, and a moon named mana or something like that. both were chased by wolves.  <br />   Anyway, the gods and the giants struggled in the old world, the giants always trying for domination.  In the twilight of the gods the giants attacked the gods in a large battle. The giants were stopped, but the gods died as well. Then the wolves ate the sun and moon.  Everything was wiped away.<br />   Then a new sun and new moon, both larger than their predesors, appeared. And two humans came out of the woods where Odin had hidden them, trying to save the human race. And so the world was started anew.  It was the beginning of the age of man.<br />   Don't critisize people on things you obviously dont no about.  <br />


created: 2001-07-30 05:14:05
subject: <b>a few tings korwain</b>
body:
&gt;According to mythology, the old world had a sun named sol, &gt;and a moon named mana or something like that. both were &gt;chased by wolves. <br /><br />In Swedish sun=sol, moon=m&#229;ne.<br /><br />All in all i think that you should do a little more reading before you post nonsense. How, for example, do you explain the stories where Oden meddled with human affairs 1100 years ago? <br />Ragnar&#246;k hasn't taken place yet...<br /><br />/Jimmy


created: 2001-10-19 12:33:21
subject: <b>hypocrisy is bad m'kay</b>
body:
All right, so the literal translations he had in his post didn't prove his point, but if you read his post, he didn't say that men were created after Ragnarok, only that the Age of Man began then because the last 2 humans came out of hiding then.  Thank you.<br /><br />Torin


created: 2002-01-12 06:42:09
subject: <b>Korwain, you are wrong</b>
body:
Ragnarok has not happened yet<br />it was  foretold by a volve, and therefore we know what will come to pass, but it has not happened.if it had, Odin,. Tohor all the gods would be dead.<br />trust me, it has not happened. You never have a mythology where the gods are all ready dead...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> <font color="a52a2a">Magnus Alexander corpore parvus erat </font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <font color="b8860b">Dissenting voice of wotmania</font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <br /><font color="6495ed">Frightfully stubborn pacifist</font> <br /><br /><i><font color="669900"> Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent</font></i></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-10 08:40:50
subject: <b>norse mythology</b>
body:
is actually germanic in origin, not really worth mentioning.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">what? sorry,.....I'd stopped listening.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-06 05:56:57
subject: <b>Norse inconsistencies</b>
body:
There are a few details which don't quite fit into the theory that Rand = Tyr<br />            Mat = Odin<br />            Perrin = Thor<br />   first is that, in another set of theories on the site somewhere, i saw a bit about Rand, Mat and Perrin equating to the Destroyer, Protector, Builder trinity in Norse mythology, with Rand as the Destroyer, of course, Mat as the Protector and Perrin as the Builder. This would suggest that Rand ought to equate to Odin, as he was god of battle and destruction, and Mat to Tyr, as he was a protector god.<br />   Also, Norse myth contains a Magic horn that will summon the gods and heroes for Ragnarok, clearly something to do with the Horn of Valere. However, this did not belong to Odin (Mat), but to Heimdall, the watchman of the Gods.<br />       basically, although I think there are norse influences in WoT, i don't think they're going to be rigidly followed at all.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Seia Cair</font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-23 07:57:02
subject: <b>corr:correction...</b>
body:
please disregard the post above...<br />next time i'll check before posting bull....<br />the horse had eight legs, and probably belonged to odin (as far as i was told, anyway....)<br />never heard about any goats, though...<br />


created: 2003-05-23 00:54:22
subject: <b>Nine daughters?</b>
body:
&quot;And consequently, Odin had Nine Daughters, errr...Daughter of the Nine Moons?&quot;<br /><br />No, Odin had six sons and one daughter with his wife Frigg.<br />One son with Rind whom he, in the shape of a woman, raped.<br />It's also very likely that Odin, under the name of Od, had two daughters with Freya.<br />That's what I've read, maybe I'm wrong. =)<br /><br />Where did you read that he had nine daughters?


created: 2001-03-25 00:00:00
subject: <b>The light, the iron, and the musical instrument.</b>
body:
Alrighty, I've got a theory about what these mean.  The light, is Moiraine, because, you know, Aes Sedai make light, and they channel, etc. (you know what I mean).   The musical instrument is Thom, for the obvious reason (he's a gleeman).  And the iron is Mat, with his knives and his other spear-like weapon (sorry, I forgot the name, something like Ae'shandar, or something)  Anyways, those three are going to defeat the Finn...  <br /><img src="images/aessedai.gif" />


created: 2001-03-27 00:00:00
subject: <b>NEGATIVE</b>
body:
Mat will provide the fire using firestickes (matches) provided by Aludra, the former Illuminator. Thom will provide music with his harp or flute. And lastly Mat will also provide the iron with his ashandarei (his staff with the sword blade attacked to the end).


created: 2001-03-28 00:00:00
subject: <b>Mat twice doesn't work.</b>
body:
This last blackboard posting doesn't wotk because it only includes two people in a symbolism of three.  I agree whole-heartedly though that Moiraine is the third person.  Fire, Music, and Iron.  Fire because moiraine can channel it, Music because Tom can make, and Mat I am still a bit confused on.  I suppose the ashendrei is ok but I am still a little 'iffy about it because it is an power-wrought blade and isn't necessarily iron.  If anyone can show that power-wrought blades are made from iron and the true source, please post it because this is a very good addition to the original post.


created: 2001-03-28 00:00:00
subject: <b>4 not 3</b>
body:
Recall that the little song before the Snakes & Foxes Game mentions courage, fire, iron, and music. I think that would work the equation out to Olver showing courage (him being so young his courage would be most impressive anyway). Thom would of course be music. That leaves Moiraine as Fire and Mat as Iron. I think it would all work out rather nicely.<p>   By the way I don't think that Mat Ashanderi will count as the iron and not just because it's a power wrought blade. Let's remember that it was given to him by the Eelfinn. Are they really going to give him a weapon that would be harmful to themselves?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font></p><p></p>


created: 2001-03-31 00:00:00
subject: <b>Missing parts</b>
body:
You are mising a part of the whole Mat losing an eye.  The Finns told him that he would lose half the light of the world to save the world.  By assuming Mat is losing half the light of the world saving Moiraine.  How is is saving half the light of the world?


created: 2001-04-02 00:00:00
subject: <b>One small correction</b>
body:
You people are saying Moirane stands for the light.  I have to disagree due to the fact that she got stilled.  I think Aluadra might go along after some begging (and kissing) from Mat.  She might use her fireworks as weapons thus giving Mat the idea to make cannons and such.


created: 2001-04-03 00:00:00
subject: <b>Stilled???</b>
body:
Where does it say that Moiraine is stilled?  Evidence of the bond between her and Lan being broken is not enough.  How do we know that when the doorway melted it snapped the bond without stilling her?


created: 2001-04-05 00:00:00
subject: <b>Just a couple things</b>
body:
Moraine transfered Lan's bond before she went through the doorway. Lan mentions this new bond at the end of the Fires of Heaven.<p>The line that is spoken from the game of Snakes and Foxes is "Courage to strengthen, fire to blind, music to daze, and iron to bind." I interpretted "Iron to bind" as in iron bindings, like handcuffs or something, not Mat's spear.<br /><img src="images/aessedai.gif" /></p>


created: 2001-04-09 00:00:00
subject: <b>On Olver...</b>
body:
Don't beleive that he is a waste of writing...Do beleive that because he is a child, he will come up with the solution to a problem.  Children don't have the constraints of an adult...They're more open to free thinking and the thought that anything is possible...He'll come into play with the answer and blow everyone away with the simplicity of it all!!!


created: 2001-04-17 00:00:00
subject: <b>Importance of Moiraine</b>
body:
"Give up half the light of the world to save the world."<br />And yet it seems Mat will give up half the light of his world just to save Moiraine.<br />But Min had a viewing that Rand will fail without Moiraine, so I think Moiraine will come back just in time to save Rand and help win The Last Battle, thereby fulfilling the Finns' prophecy.  And Mat losing an eye will therefore save the world.


created: 2001-04-24 00:00:00
subject: <b>The rhyme</b>
body:
"Courage to strengthen, fire to blind, music to daze, and iron to bind"<p>Thom - music<br />Mat  - fire</p><p>Olver may solve the riddle, not necessarily to enter with them.</p><p>They are there so save Moiraine so she may not be a part of it (and if she is, she could just as easily be courage or iron as fire). </p><p>So who best fits courage and iron?</p><p>maybe perrin as courage and rand as iron?</p>


created: 2001-04-25 00:00:00
subject: <b>Moiraine's Rescue</b>
body:
Does anyone remember in Eye of the World where Mat, Rand, and Thom are traveling down the river away from Shadar Logoth?  Rand and Mat see an iron tower off in the distance, perhaps the Tower of Genjei?  I don't think it will be necessary to go there in Tel'aran'rhiod to rescue Moiraine.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Dajeth<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /> El Pollo Loco <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-04-25 00:00:00
subject: <b>The Tower of Ghengei</b>
body:
Yes!  In fact I stumbled over that as I was rereading EotW, AFTER I wrote this theory.<p>Why has no one mentioned that Tuon might be involved in this somehow?  There's a very good chance she can channel (and just doesn't know it yet) so SHE might be the fire part.  Also, I get the feeling that now that she has Mat she's not going to let him out of her sight.  This is why she smiled when he said they would bring her with them.  So it's right out of the question that she will let him go to Finnland without her!</p>


created: 2001-04-27 00:00:00
subject: <b>Riddle from Olver's Game</b>
body:
This idea just occured to me as I was rereading this theory.  RJ likes to use characters for several purposes, they each have several functions.  Maybe one of Olver's functions is to provide the answer for how to beat the Finn through his board game.  <p>"Fire to blind, Music to daze, Iron to bind..."  Each of these has been attributed to characters up until now, but what if they are all related to one object?  What about some form of a firearm?  </p><p>The noise from a firearm would daze and the flash would blind. Maybe the iron to bind is the iron that holds the weapon together?</p><p>Olver provides the answer in the form of a riddle, Matt solves it, and Thom carries out the rescue?  Anyway, what do you think?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Dajeth<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /> El Pollo Loco <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /></font></p><p></p>


created: 2001-05-30 09:00:00
subject: <b>Birgitte knows how to deal with the Snakes and Foxes</b>
body:
In the Shadows Rising Perrin meets Birgitte in Tel'aran'rhiod where she warns him about the Tower of Ghenjei.<br /><br />.Courage to strenghten, fire to blind, music to daze, iron to bind' ... 'Those are the ways to win against the snakes and the foxes. The game is a remembrance of old dealings.'<br /><br />Birgitte will probably get fed up with Olver for always playing that fool game and tell him how to win it, thus depriving Olver of any reason to live, which will also be the end of that character, and Mat the way to save Moraine, or probably even better a way to get back at the foxes (or whas it the snakes) rescuing Moraine in the process...<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" /> Bakkie <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /> &quot;I know you believe you understand what you think I said, but I am not sure you realise that what you heard is not what I meant.&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-05-30 13:56:30
subject: <b>Some theories blasted</b>
body:
Courage to strengthen,<br />Fire to blind,<br />Music to dazzle,<br />Iron to bind.<br /><br />Olver's purpose is certain to involve solving a way to take advantage of the Aelfinn and Eelfinn. But there's more there than just that. I don't see him as Gaidal Cain, but I can't disprove it beyond the time issue, that when Birgitte notices him gone from T'A'R, Olver already had to have been born. Olver's other purpose is something to do with Aviendha. She cares for him, though he's Cairhienin, and that surprises her.<br /><br />As for Moiraine's rescue, Thom and Mat are giveaways to be involved. I've no clue who else might be, but symbolism is always carried out in this series, so there will be four involved, and I can't include Moiraine among them. I'd like to think Aludra will provide the fire, in repayment for Mat's help in making a cannon. (The need for a bellfounder)<br /><br />On Lan's bond being severed/loosed/broken, there is no trouble believing that she released the bond, which would then instantly transfer to Myrelle. The only thing which bothers me about this is his reaction as if Moiraine had died traumatically. Would a warder who wanted his bond released suffer the same fate? It doesn't seem right. I tend to think the destruction of the doorway broke the bond, producing a traumatic result for Lan.<br /><br />Tuon channeling? She boasts of having taken all the tests for damane and for sul'dam, from her sixteenth year, even though it's not required of her, and there's no way she would have been missed if she could channel. There's one chance on this, and that would be that the Empress sent instructions to pass her over if an ability was sensed. I don't see it.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> Call_me_Tim <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> Call me Tim <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-05-31 10:03:39
subject: <b>Gaidal Cain</b>
body:
The time issue between cain dissappearing and olver is explained by birgette, i think it's around when she gets dragged out of the world of dreams.<br /><br />She explains how days and years mean nothing in the dream world. she says that days in the dream can be years in the real world and vice versa thus explaining howif cain has only dissappeared for a few days he can in fact have been in the real world for years.<br /><br />Also Olver is ugly and cain is ugly,the description of the 2 with the duff noses is pretty close match<br /><br />thats the best i got


created: 2001-06-09 01:24:21
subject: <b>Olver, Tuon, and all the rest</b>
body:
As i don't have my books on me this is probably gonna be pretty sketchy but oh well, here goes.<br /><br />1.) in EotW Thom says something to the effect of the dead are reborn or can posess an already living human.  I don't remember the actual wording but this could explain how Olver could be Gaidal Cain<br /><br />2.) Tuon could have been a *suldam*.  She can be TAUGHT to channel, but the Seanchan don'tnow it can be taught (as far as we know.).<br /><br />3.)Courage to strengthen,<br />Fire to blind,<br />Music to dazzle,<br />Iron to bind.<br /><br />music = Thom a bard<br />fire = mat's fireworks or tuon channeling<br />courage = olver finding the way in and out of the tower of Ghenji<br />iron = tuon channeling earth <br /> <br /><br />That's my two cents..<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Imagen<br /><br />Bringing the Light to all who don't think Olver is Gaidal <br /><br />If Polgara and Sephrenia helped out, poor Rand would be doing whatever any woman told him to do.<br /><br />Is it just me or have the smiley&#8217;s gotten waaaaaaaaaaaay outta control?<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-26 16:33:48
subject: <b>Re: The tower of Genej</b>
body:
I don't think the tower that Mat and the others saw when they traveled down the river is the tower of genej (don't remember the spelling, sorry <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> )<br />When we first heard of the tower was when Perrin entered tel'alan'roid. This was near the Two Rivers, and there was not any river near to it. <br />But I'm wondering what kind of tower the other is, it will be interesting to find that out.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Adele Seidai<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />Reader of WoT<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-02 18:45:20
subject: <b>tuon's damane</b>
body:
I am glad that soebody else sees an uncanny resemblance between tuon's special damane and moiraine.  The physical description of Mylen(?) and Moiraine are quite similar.  Mylen was acquired on a dock and used to be aes sedai.  I know that later in the book Mylen and another are seen by an aes sedai and she is recognized as being someone other than moiraine.  <br />When I read the book the second time I noticed the moiraine mylen thing then found the debunk later.  I was looking for a theory on it because you folks are a lot better at this stuff than I.  What do you think?


created: 2001-08-09 11:42:53
subject: <b>Tuon the Suldam</b>
body:
Tuon took the test and passed for a suldam.  But, being the daughter of the nine moons, she can't be a suldam to.  The book does talk about her personally training her Damane.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /> Warder of Eolair <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> Burn <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Burn<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />-The Pope of Chili Town<br /><br />Why so blue pandabear?</font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-14 14:55:20
subject: <b>fire courage music iron</b>
body:
Music.  Every is pointing at Thom for the music.  he's not the only one who can play.  Rand has been known to play a flute too.<br /><br />Iron.  Since Mat's ashandarei has come under question, we need to look at normal weapons, like maybe Perrin's axe.  Or his hammer.<br /><br />Courage.  They all seem to possess courage.<br /><br />Fire.  Rand can channel it, Mat has his fireworks.<br /><br />Keep it all in their little threesome.


created: 2001-08-23 14:03:35
subject: <b>Kaboom!</b>
body:
OK, the tower is iron. Music could be the boom of the fireworks, fire IS the firework, and courage could be someone going into the tower of Genji (where people don't often come out from) and setting off a huge supply of fireworks. This will blow a huge hole in the tower, so the iron can't bind Moiraine anymore, thus freeing her from the Finn.<br />Well, it's an idea anyway! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Light and darkness in harmony <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /> Protecting innocent damsels since 1999 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> The Lone Wolf <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-29 01:56:11
subject: <b>i think</b>
body:
its not<br /><br />music = Thom a bard<br />fire = mat's fireworks or tuon channeling<br />courage = olver finding the way in and out of the tower of Ghenji<br />iron = tuon channeling earth <br /><br />its<br /><br />music = Thom a bard<br />fire = mat's fireworks or tuon channeling<br />courage = olver finding the way in and out of the tower of Ghenji<br />iron = perrin.<br /><br />why perrin instead of tuon you might ask? <br />well thats simple he used to be a blacksmith's apprentice . so if any1 knows about iron it is perrin.<br /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lan.gif" border="0" /> why would he lie? I'm getting to suspicious. No. I have to be suspicious. As trusting as a viper, and as cold.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lan.gif" border="0" /> <br />


created: 2002-01-10 09:03:10
subject: <b>There is a similar theory elsewhere.</b>
body:
And it uses the old cannon idea for music/fire/iron.<br /><br />It goes a little like this,<br /><br />1, Bellfounders/makers(whatever) make cannon, there is your music (I never said it was a sound/solid theory). - MUSIC, vaguely). or big cannon goes boom, musical sound but I think the cannon blowing the 9 layers of hell out of the side of the tower of gimpy sounds like a more interesting chapter.<br />2, Bells or at least cannons are made out of iron (probably).  If not, it's the cannon balls. - IRON.<br />3, Fire makes cannons go big boom <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> - FIRE.<br />4, if you want courage you can use having the balls (that's almost, almost vaguely humorous) to use the thing. - COURAGE.<br /><br />so what we've got is breaking into the tower of gimpy using a cannon to blow the side of it off, or some such.<br /><br />It makes sense so I thought I'd pass it on. IT IS NOT MY THEORY so I take NO CREDIT FOR THIS and bitch at me if you disagree.<br /><br />Bored_Foul, the 'I'm not working' - 'I really should'<br /><br />I do agree that Olver will suss it though and I'm feeling generous today so he can be a hero of the horn as well.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/myrddraal.gif" border="0" />Lord_Foul<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/disapprove.gif" border="0" />One day I'll spend more than 2 minutes on a post<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/disapprove.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-06 20:36:56
subject: <b>Yeah...</b>
body:
Well, I really don't know about the others, but I think that Perrin has to be the iron.  I have been re-reading the books, and Perrin is the only one that has ever been mentioned as having iron.  That uiron is his hammer.  So, he's going to go with whoever else comes, and he'll bring his hammer.  (for the iron).   This will also solve the thingy with choosing axe or hammer.He'll ditch the axe, because it's not iron, (it says specifically that it's steel)  and he'll stick with the hammer.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ph34r!</font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-19 07:47:06
subject: <b>More On Moiraine's Resuce</b>
body:
I agree that Olver will find a way to win Snakes and Foxes, probably through cheating, which is right up Mat's alley.  Plus, if there WAS a legit way to win the game, SOMEBODY would have discovered it before now.<br /><br />I agree that Olver is Gaidal Cain.  As stated before, Birgitte explains the passage of time in T'a'R and that current bodies can be adopted by souls spun out back into the pattern.<br /><br />I agree the Music is Thom.  It's just too perfect, since we all seem to agree he's going to be the rescuer<br /><br />I agree Mat will lose an eye to save the world<br /><br />I agree Mat/Aludra will provide the fire.  We've just spent too much time with firesticks and rockets, and Aludra has a responsibility to prove herself a more intriguing character.<br /><br />I disagree with most Iron theories.  The Iron is either the Tower itself (&quot;. . . to bind&quot; ), or possibly has something to do with Mat's foxhead medallion.  I know, I know, it's silver, but there's probably some iron in there somewhere.<br /><br />I disagree that Moiraine will be stilled.  For all her depth, she has always been an unyielding, unchanging and static character.  She will be back to her old self once free.<br /><br />I disagree that the Courage will come from Olver, even if he is Gaidal Cain.  There's just not enough info to make a good decision.  And, discovering a way to cheat at a child's game is no way to prove Courage.  My best guess is Mat's Courage in sacrificing his eye.<br /><br />I have no opinion one way or the other concerning whether Tuon will accompany Mat/Thom(/Olver) into the Tower.  Again, we just don't know enough yet.<br /><br />-Braidtugger


created: 2002-04-08 06:25:40
subject: <b>Mythology of the Fae</b>
body:
Iron and Fire are feared by Fae (faeries/Finn/Eelfinn&amp;Aelfinn). Music can be used to lull them, entertain them, escape them, and barter with them. In common mythology, this really common for Faefolk, and the finns are DEFINATLY based on these myths. I agree with the symbolism representing people or abilities or actions, however, in myth, these guy just really hated Iron and fire, and music was a weakness as well. So, don't think too hardly on this one....<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">-nickIQ<br />www.InsertQuoin.com<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /> Aiel = Fremen... common, think about it <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /> Bene Gesserit, the origional Aes Sedia..<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br />Hi! I'm a signature virus! Copy me to your signature, and help me spread!</font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-22 14:26:15
subject: <b>eh</b>
body:
BTW, Moiraine will come back, and even if she's stilled someone will just heal her. and Also she is NOT Tuon's damane i dont think. If she is, then i'll kill myself in shame.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rand.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Kneel and swear to the Lord Dragon, or you shall be knelt! - Mazrim Taim<br /><br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-25 01:14:42
subject: <b>seanchan and the light of the world</b>
body:
Ever sense i read about Mat haveing to sacrifice half the light of the world to save the world, i thought that it would be something with the Seanchan. Link One: He's gunna marry the Daughter of the Nine Moons, AKA the empress to be. Link 2. In one of the first books Ishy says something about whispering in hawkwings ear, and sending the invasion fleet to seanchan, thus dooming the other side of the world. Hmm maybe i'm on crack but that do be me 2 bits....


created: 2002-05-20 15:20:37
subject: <b>Oliver is comming of age</b>
body:
Oliver may be a great warrior, Cain or a woodcarver for all I really care.  In reality he's not taking up much space really, because he's signifying Mat growing up.  Notice as a Father figure Mat is trying to stop doing all of the really bad things he did when he was younger and is having to chastize Oliver for doing them.  Mat is developing a sence of responcibility to the boy, something he wasn't really developing to anyone or anything else for the entire series.  so no matter what Oliver will become his time with Mat has been well spent


created: 2002-07-22 23:02:51
subject: <b>Just a random thought</b>
body:
It's been forever since I have read the books so I guess I should get on it before the new one comes out in novemeber and re-read them. Just a thought though and admittedly this comes from something said in an earlier post and something seen on Buffy: The Vampire Slayer.<br /><br />Could it be as simple as having a bell to ring that could unravel whatever hold the Finns have? I mean it's a musical instrument bound in iron and forged in fire. The courage is supplied by whoever faces up to them and rings the bell. I don't know. It's late and came to me reading that and seeing the Buffy episode of Hush where the sound of a human voice broke the spell the demons cast and destroyed them. What do you guys think?


created: 2002-08-26 16:51:50
subject: <b>Olver and Brigette</b>
body:
I like the idea of the rescue by Mat, Thom and Olver, and it also solves a problem that has bothered me.  Clearly Olver is Brigette's lost love, but there is an age difference.  Is it possible that during the rescue Olver is caught and somehow ages to be closer to Brigette?<br /><br />


created: 2002-10-01 22:12:02
subject: <b>olver=courage</b>
body:
<br /> Olver is most definately Gaidal Cain, he is learning how to be a soldier from the best. Also remember that Birgitte is quite fond of him &quot;I would just die if anything happened to him&quot;<br /> and as for his place in the story, who else could have greater courage than a hero tied to the wheel of time. I believe he is courage, thom is music, mat is iron, and after they rescue her moiraine will be fire.


created: 2002-11-03 02:06:17
subject: <b>Moiraine is not Tuon's special damane</b>
body:
for all of you that thought that Moiraine was Mylen, that special damane that Tylin has, you are wrong. <br />Winter's Heart, What a Veil Hides, pg 327   <br /><br />&quot;Tiny Mylen, shorter even than Tuon herself. Mylen was Tuon's special pride among the six.&quot;<br /><br />And then, proving that Mylen is not Moiraine....<br /><br /><br />Winter's Heart, Three Women, pg 411  <br /><br />&quot;'The others do be. . . changed.' Teslyn's mouth tightened.'Guisin and Mylen--I did know her as Sheraine Caminelle, but she do answer only to Mylen, now...&quot;<br /><br />Kaboom! there it is straight out. Mylen is not Moiraine, she is Sheraine Caminelle.  <br />


created: 2002-11-22 09:35:22
subject: <b>Matt ???</b>
body:
Sorry, but I don't know Matt. Who is he?<br />However, I think Mat (only one T), Rand, Perrin and Thom are the rescue. Who better than the three ta'veren and Moiraine's lover could rescue her?<br />Moiraine isn't that special damane (Mylen ???), or I don't think so.<br />Olver isn't a waste of time, Robert Jordan created him for one reason: he's Gaidal Cain. But I don't think he's part of the rescue.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/min.gif" border="0" /> &lt;== Is she Min? I've always thought she has brown eyes</font><p></p>


created: 2002-12-11 00:58:32
subject: <b>Placement of the Tower of G</b>
body:
About the tower being near the two rivers, i belive Perrin Chased Slayer over hundreds of miles before reaching the twoer didnt he? So that chould be the same tower.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Anick alSev<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /><br /><i>&quot;Till shade is gone, till water is gone,<br />into the Shadow with teeth bared,<br />screaming defiance with the last breath,<br />to spit in Sightblinder's eye on the last Day!&quot;</i><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-green.gif" border="0" /> Jedi Guardian <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-green.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-24 22:03:41
subject: <b>Olver has served a purpose</b>
body:
If Olver hadn't been out and about when Elayne left Ebou Dar Mat would have left also. Olver is the over all means by which Mat meets Tuon. No Olver no late night escape no meeting the daughter of the nine moons. This may not be his sole purpose, but it is an important part of the weave.


created: 2004-10-12 13:40:41
subject: <b>Also</b>
body:
I forget the guys name, but there are a lot of clues that Olver is Brigette's male friend there that she always is reborn in close proximity with.<br /><br />He is described as an ugly little boy afterall.


created: 2005-03-26 11:52:33
subject: <b>Moiraine stilled, Thom's letter, and Olver</b>
body:
Moiraine:<br />Moiraine could be stilled or not, it doesn't really matter.  Nynaeve or Flinn could Heal her, and that would explain why Lan's bond was broken.<br />If she's not stilled, though, what would happen?  We know Moiraine is strong in the Power, but Lanfear lost some of her strength after she fell through the door, and she died.  How did Moiraine survive, then?  I also think I remember Moiraine saying she saw one more thing in Rhuidean after her and Lanfear falling through the door ter'angreal, and I wonder what it was. <br />Thom:<br />At the Stone, Moiraine told Thom if he went with Nynaeve and Elayne to Tanchico, she would give him the names of the Red sisters who gentled Owyn.  It would be reasonable to assume that's what's in the letter, but you never know, there could be something else.<br />Olver:<br />I agree that Olver is Gaidal Cain--he is really ugly.  But I would think that would mean that she would go along with them to the Tower of Ghenjei, since she seems to consider it her duty to take care of Gaidal.


created: 2005-04-11 23:01:42
subject: <b>too many possibilities...</b>
body:
i agree mat will be a major component of moiraines rescue. not because he wants to rescue her (he would have no idea she is alive), but because he wants his revenge on the finns.<br /><br />im not sure how exactly the whole thing will play out, but i think he either has to get into finnland through the tower of genjei (i think i spelled that right) or through a portal stone. if you disagree, with the portal stone theory, look at all the places where someone is at a portal stone. i cant remember exactly which one its in, but one of them mentions upside-down triangles and sinuous lines as symbols on the stone. which are, conveniently, the same symbols on the doorframe ter'angreal.<br /><br />i also agree that he will definitely lose an eye as a price for her rescue. min's viewing says that rand will fail without moiraine, and mat is supposed to give up half the light of the world to save the world. thus, by him giving up half the light of his world, he saves the world by bringing moiraine out so she can help rand again.<br /><br />still havent figured out the whole courage, music, fire, iron thing, but im working on it, even if im not sure ill ever have a clear answer. now im just rambling, so i might as well just stop.


created: 2001-03-20 00:00:00
subject: <b>A couple of questions...</b>
body:
If he DID make a new taint insted or moving the old one, then what was that great big black dome over Shadar Logoth, and why did he keep thinking that the taint was moving?<p>Just wondering.. <img src="images/smile.gif" /></p>


created: 2001-03-20 00:00:00
subject: <b>Re: similarity to Rand's wounds</b>
body:
I agree with the theory in that it reminds me of the two evils in Rand's wound fighting each other on a larger scale.  When I first read the Choedan Kal chapter, I thought he destroyed one taint with another.  It's the simplest idea and makes the most sense.<img src="images/smile.gif" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Miss you Kory.<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /> Trigger  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> Tehanu's honourary Aussie <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />  Taimandred still LIVES... as a proxy<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> Lanfear killed Asmo <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />Aliena's | &gt;  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /> <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-03-21 00:00:00
subject: <b>nope, buddy</b>
body:
I'm sorry but whatever Rand did moved TOWARD  Shadar Logoth, not From it.<p>The end<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b><font color="dark yellow">A</font><font color="red">n</font><font color="orange">an</font><font color="red">k</font><font color="dark yellow">e</font></b><br />Creator of the <i>Glistering and Shining New and Improved Advanced Warder Spoon</i><br />Warder to Corail<br />Disciple-restaurator of WOOPAH!&#8482;<br />Vice-President of <b>BucketBaby's</b> fanclub -She Rocks!<br /></font></p><p></p>


created: 2001-03-22 00:00:00
subject: <b>I don't think so</b>
body:
When Saidin was first tainted The Hundred Companions went instantly insane not even knowing that they succeeded in sealing the Bore. If Rand put a new taint on I would think they would notice. Remember when Rand was Slashed with Fains dagger the Aes Sedai healing him could feel the two evils, and so could the Asha'man.


created: 2001-03-22 00:00:00
subject: <b>Flip the Script</b>
body:
I don't know how to explain this, and i can't really back it up, but what if Rand took the taints, and somehow moved them into himself?  Damer said that the wounds in his side were unchanged after the cleansing of the taint, even though he thought they would be.  So I propose that Rand took the taints, let them fight each other off, and what was left he sealed behind the Ward that was keeping the taints from him in the first place.  I don't really know if this makes much sense, but it sounded a lot more coherent in my head, believe me.  I think he did this by funelling saidin through his own body,using the wound in his side as a type of filter.  With the amount of the power that he was drinking (Demandred's words) this just might work.  The reason that the wounds were not changed following thte feat was that the filter was just dirty, like pouring oil through a screen.  He had to do it at Shadar Logoth because he needed a catalyst, the two evils beat in counterpoint to each other.  Is this making any sense?  One of these days, I'm gonna have to develop this a little more, but it's the best I can come up with spur of the moment.  OUT.


created: 2001-03-28 00:00:00
subject: <b>95% Clean</b>
body:
For all intents and purposes, I believe that saidin is clean. Jordan probably tossed Cadsuane's comment at the end to screw with his readership's collective head. I think that those of us who think that there needs to be more explanation on the "How" of the cleansing will be disappointed.  Besides, did Rand really KNOW what he was doing? There seems to be plenty of uncertainty in his mind before the group Travelled out to SL.    <p>True, he did get the crux of the idea from the beat/counterbeat of the two wounds in his side. And elsewhere (sorry no immediate textual evidence at hand)it has been implied that one of the questions he asked through the doorway in Tear concerned the cleansing of the Taint.</p><p>Anyway, from what I could gather from With The Choedan Kal Rand used opposing forces of saidin&saidar; to channel the Taint into SL.  This follows with what Jordan has been saying since Day 1: the greatest feats of the power were done with the two powers working together. Rand just took that ball and ran with it.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">RTWL<br />If you meet Buddha on the road - kill him.</font></p><p></p>


created: 2001-03-28 00:00:00
subject: <b>So fresh and so clean</b>
body:
I would just like to announce that Rand did not get his plan from his wounds, but from the Aelfinn (or is it Eelfinn?).  I can tell this from the fact that.....he said so ya' idjits.  He said he asked how to cleanse Saidin "where answers are always true," and got a riddle.  He set out on having Fel work out the meaning to it, but Fel was killed.  Rand eventually figured it out.  Whether the wounds in his side helped him figure out the riddle or not is a mystery, but the crux of the idea came from Finnland. <br /> And another thing.  I think that Saidin is clean.  What I believe that Rand did is mix in saidar with saidin to dilute the taint.  We know that it is possable for men and women working together to do that type of thing from "The Eye of The World."(F.Y.I. the eye of the world itself was actually just about that.  I don't think Rand's wounds represent anything in proximity to that.  I think that this is clear because the fisher piece (from an age before the age of legends) always had the wound.  The Dragon, eborn or otherwise, always had that wound.  <img src="images/aessedai.gif" /><p>P.S.  How come I can't get no Tang 'round here? <img src="images/jester.gif" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />the lover of light and wisdom<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" />the all-seeing eye<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />the wandering wotmaniac<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font></p><p></p>


created: 2001-03-31 00:00:00
subject: <b>The Taint Was Moving</b>
body:
I love the idea of the two "evils" cancelling each other, but I seem to remember Rand thinking that "the taint was moving" and as he was linked with Nynaeve, the taint could have moved into saidar.<p>The only evidence I have is that Jordan has gradually reversed or broken several natural (and unnatural) laws throughout the series, i.e Nynaeve's ability to Heal stilling/gentling, Aviendha's trick with the gateway (whic I still don't understand!), the DO's corruption of the seasons, the DO's tainting of the OP in the first place.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;When the sun goes out, all deeds, significant or not, will be forgotten together&quot;</font></p><p></p>


created: 2001-03-31 00:00:00
subject: <b>One bite in the bit.....</b>
body:
While that does seem like a neat twist to things (Rand doesn't actually go mad and break the world himself, he just becomes the impetus for the female breaking [and if you thought the breaking round one was bad hoo boy...] because of his arogance and pride), I have to argue one thing.<p>   If Saidar had taken the taint all evidence suggest that it would have been known to the Aes Sedai in a heartbeat. A woman old as Cadsuane would know lickety split that the female half was dirty.</p><p>  I like the idea though, maybe the second prison at Shayol Ghul could factro that in.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font></p><p></p>


created: 2001-04-03 00:00:00
subject: <b>Why he did it at Shadar Logoth</b>
body:
I think that Rand carried out the cleansing there not only to free saidin of the taint but to destroy Shadar Logoth. so he just killed two birds with one stone.I don't necessarily think that the two evils cancelled out each other, cause if that was true his wounds would have healed. <br />     Also on his wounds, some expressed the thought that with the cleansing of the source that his wound would be cleansed, but the wound is a result of ba'alzamon's sword not a result of channeling


created: 2001-04-04 00:00:00
subject: <b>well....</b>
body:
In small dosages the evils balance each other out. In larger quantities however they kill each other. See it's like oxygen and flame in small portion it's not a big boom, or maybe no noticable ignition. But if you get a room full of Ox and light a fire then you get some BOOM.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-04-04 00:00:00
subject: <b>What about this?</b>
body:
I agree that Rand got his idea from the 2 wounds working against each other, but what about this...  What if the 2 wounds were working against each other in the same way that Saidin and Saidar do?  Against each other, but driving one another.  Without one the other wouldn't exist.  Rand's newest wound came from the dagger... from Shadar Logoth.  What if Mashadar was the source of the evil in the dagger, and Rand destroyed Mashadar?  Without one the other can't exist...<img src="images/biggrin.gif" />


created: 2001-04-05 00:00:00
subject: <b>Not quite, but what if...</b>
body:
Jordan actualy describes the cleansing of Saidin quite thouroughly.  Rand used Saidar to create a funnel through which he pushed Saidin, and the taint along with it.  There were several reasons for doing this at SL.  One reason was that if anything were to go wrong, at least SL would probably be destroyed, instead of an innocent village.  More importantly Rand wanted to not only remove the taint, but destroy it, if possible.  As has been mentioned, the wound two wounds throbbed in counterpoint.  They not only fought to destroy Rand's body, but also eachother (think of Fain's madness).  So, Rand funneled the taint into SL where the two evils faught eachother(thus the dome of darkness) and ultimately destroy eachother.  OK, I'm not entirely sure they are destroyed, but the bubble imploded at the end.  The reason that the wounds did not disappear is that they were protected from what Rand was doing by the containing wards. <br />Of course, the original idea of how to cleanse the taint came from the Aelfinn, and the wounds gave more clues.<img src="images/aessedai.gif" />


created: 2001-04-06 00:00:00
subject: <b>More on the Cleansing</b>
body:
Just a thought, but for everybody that says that he did it at SL for any reason other than he had to think about this.  Saidin and Saidar can not mix.  They can touch but not mix.  Now the two wounds Rand has are of two evils that are able touch (thus able to fight) but not mix.  The reason that he had to go to SL was becuase the taint was mixed with saidin and needed something that saidin could go through but not the taint.  Thus the evil at Sl was required.  As Rand poured saidin through SL it went through fine but the taint could not.  It was left hanging about SL (the big black dome) the rippling that occurs in the dome (the flame that was blacker than black) was the tain collapsing under its on "weight"  It had nowhere to go and was not mixed with saidin so it could only collapse in upon itself and sucked in SL with it when it went.


created: 2001-05-31 09:31:25
subject: <b>Opposites attract, except when they repel...</b>
body:
The evil that created Mashadar was born of a fight against the Shadow. The paradox is that a mad-made evil destroyed Aridhol as completely as the Dark One's evil ever could have, even though that evil was created by good intentions. In fact, the hatred, rage and desire to destroy the Shadow at all costs which made Mashadar is evil, and yet dstructive of Shadowspawn.<br /><br />Imagine a circle, say like a compass. For argument's sake, say that the North ordinal of the compass points to the Light. The evil of the taint on Saidin is deflected from the Light in the East direction, and Mashadar is deflected from the Light in the West direction. Brought within proximity of each other, the Dark One's taint and Mashadar are attracted as opposites, and as opponents they fight and consume each other.<br /><br />In a similar theme, Rand uses forces which are unlike (Saidin and Saidar), to form a conduit which at once draws the taint of Saidin into the conduit, filters the taint away from Saidin into the center of the conduit, and aims it at Shadar Logoth.<br /><br />Both the taint and Mashadar are now gone. Now about Rand's wounds. One is imbued with the evil of Mashadar, the other with an evil connected to the True Power, when Ishamael stabbed Rand with his staff. I can't say that this is akin to Saidin's taint, so I don't know if it could be expected that his wounds would clear up, but if nothing else, one explanation for why his wounds aren't any better would be that they have been warded to contain them away from the rest of his body. Perhaps.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> Call_me_Tim <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> Call me Tim <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-10 16:40:28
subject: <b>Mutual annihilation.</b>
body:
It would appear to me that what Rand did at Shadar Logoth was use the taint on that place to destroy the taint on Saidin. Both were a taint. Call the taint on Saidin Taint+ and the taint on Shadar Logoth Taint-.<br /><br />   As with the Positron and the Electron, the Proton and the Anti-Proton, you get a reaction when + and - come together. This reaction is called Mutual Annihilation. The combining of matter (+) and Anti-Matter (-), causes Mutual Annihilation, producing a release of energy. In this case, a flash of light, as it were.<br /><br />With Taint+ and Taint-, you get this reaction also. The globe of blackness was the taints coming together near each other, yet not touching. When enough of the Taint+ was accumulated over Taint-, you get a Critical Mass. Both + and - come into contact due to mutual gravitation and annihilate themselves. The energy release was in this case, an implosion.<br /><br />The land on which Shadar Logoth rested was tainted, thus destroyed in the process, creating a pretty crater lake (the water from the river which flowed past Shadar Logoth will fill in the bowl that was left.)<br /><br />Taint+ and Taint- destroyed each other by canceling out the existance of each other. Mutual Annihilation. (I just like the sound of that word, don't you?)<br /><br />In summation... The Taint is removed from Saidin for good.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/oh.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Ptolomaeus<br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" />Defender of Innocents<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" />Conservor of Useless Knowlege<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br />CompTIA A+ Certified Professional<br />CompTIA Network+ Certified Professional<br />CompTIA Security+ Certified Professional<br />Microsoft Certified Professional <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-20 23:15:32
subject: <b>the wounds</b>
body:
I think the fact that Rand's wounds didn't heal is going to have some MAJOR implications later.  Not just for Rand and the whole keeping him alive thing, but for all of Randland.  His whole point was to remove and possibly destroy both taints, and yet now he's carrying the only remaining vestiges of them around in his own body.  RJ doesn't do anything without a reason, and there has to be a big one behind this.  I just wish I had a little bit more of a clue to what it is.


created: 2001-06-25 08:23:10
subject: <b>Sorry</b>
body:
Sorry, but I believe that it is quite clear that he used a conduit of Saidar to dump the taint into Shadar Logoth.  He definitely would have felt if the evil of Shadar Logoth seeped back up the conduit.  If anything got a new taint, it's Saidar.  Now that would be interesting.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Hope of Mankind <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /> Protector of Blondes <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> Poster Guy for the Incurably Wacky <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /> Priest of Narg<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> Owner of the Endless Decanter of Booze <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-05 15:23:26
subject: <b>Just a thought.</b>
body:
Does anybody remeber the Eye of the World? It was the pure essence of saidin and was made by male and female Aes Sedai together, does this ring any bells?<br /><br />Rand used both Saidar and Saidin to cleanse the taint from the saidin, and I think that he did it in very much the same way as those Aes Sedai made The Eye Of The World. How did he know how? I don't know, it's just a thought, but remember that he didn't know what he was doing when he killed all those Trollocs in the Stone of Tear either, so it could have been another one of those things. <br /><br />As for Shadar Logoth, it was destroyed when Rand cleansed the taint from Saidin and I think that's why he chose that location. Or it could have been a focus point of some kind.


created: 2001-09-07 15:45:23
subject: <b>A Part of Shadar Logoth Remains</b>
body:
As Rands wounds are still tainted, Fain and his dagger will still be <br />tainted also. All of Shadar Logoth is not cleansed yet


created: 2001-09-11 16:49:07
subject: <b>The Cleansing</b>
body:
Based on various bits of evidence, I think it's obvious what happened with the cleansing. Normally, when a flow is not directed at something or another, it simply dissipates. If Rand were to channel saidin through the sa'angreal (I don't have the book handy) it would either dissipate or have to be used on whatever he was aiming it at. Rand is described as creating a tube of saidar, directing unwoven saidin into Shadar Logoth. If he were to use this &quot;tube&quot; procedure anywhere else, saidin coming out the other end would probably just dissipate. Shadar Logoth is different however. Note that throughout the books, there have been references to The Taint resonating with the evil of Shadar Logoth. What seems to have occured is that once he directs saidin into the city unwoven, the resonence starts &quot;vibrating&quot; off of the power, like dust when exposed to loud noise. This vibration keeps the taint (which has frequently been described as a &quot;film&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> away from saidin long enough for the Power to dissipate. The Taint is then has no choice to continue resonating with the evil of Shadar Logoth. Presumably, this process continues as Rand channels the Power all day. As more of the taint is trapped in resonance with Shadar Logoth, the interaction becomes more and more violent, becoming visible to the world in the form of the globe of darkness. I'm not certian what happens at the end, but my guess would be that the whole of the taint finally balances out shadar logoth and they just cancel each other out, although I think this is a scetchy coincidence. This explains the tube of saidin, how the taint is removed, and the black mountain. Comments?


created: 2001-11-22 15:57:38
subject: <b>Effects of the taint remain, though the taint is gone</b>
body:
Wow, many interesting theories on what actually happened at SH. I liked the &quot;Mutual Annihiliation&quot; stuff! Regarding the fact that Rand's wound are still there; RJ has on several occassions said that the effects of the taint will remain, even if the taint is gone, i.e. mad male channelers will still be mad. I believe it is the same simple case with Rand's wounds.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> Let the Lord of Chaos rock'n'rule <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-03 12:29:05
subject: <b>No taint at all</b>
body:
Well nobody expected to know what the original taint was supposed to feel like either.  I would say there is no more taint.  If there were any type of taint one would think that the Asha'Man would feel something different other than just the &quot;lack&quot; of taint.  Well thats my 4 and 1/2 cents.


created: 2001-03-20 00:00:00
subject: <b>Fain better not turn back to the Light...</b>
body:
Personally, I know I hope that Fain doesn't turn back to the Light - it would just strike me as rather unbelievable given everything that has gone on in WoT to this point.  I mean, I could sort of envision Lanfear/Cyndane turning back to the Light, if Rand asked her to.  I think that would be neat.  But it just doesn't seem reasonable to imagine Fain turning back to the Light, ever...<p>Though I do agree that Tarmon Gai'don will be the LAST Battle, and I definitely see Fain playing some major part in it.  It would be a nice twist if he ended up helping Rand win somehow...  <img src="images/smile.gif" /></p>


created: 2001-03-20 00:00:00
subject: <b>Support of Fain as Danger to DO</b>
body:
Moridin's reference to his assigning Slayer to hunt down and kill Fain could support your theory that the Dark One has forseen Fain as a possible threat.  Unfortunately, so little was said on the subject.  In true RJ fashion, he entices us with a most interesting sub-plot line by baiting us with one sentence.


created: 2001-03-20 00:00:00
subject: <b>Fain coming back to the light</b>
body:
My only comment on this theory is that it could be possible for one of the forsaken or perhaps Fain to come back into the Light. We all know how much the characters (and so therefore Jordan)have stressed since the beginning:<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sally Sedai<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> Brown Ajah <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Trained by Verin <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> The ultimate answer to life,<br />the universe, and everything: 42</font><p></p>


created: 2001-03-20 00:00:00
subject: <b>Fain is the next DO</b>
body:
I personally believe that in some way Fain himself will overthrow the DO, and in a sense become the Dark One. I have nothing to substantiate this, but its a wager.


created: 2001-03-20 00:00:00
subject: <b>well...</b>
body:
i think you are wrong..i think rand will kill the shai'tan fellow...blow his head off...btw...rand is aginor!!!! *runs and hides*


created: 2001-03-21 00:00:00
subject: <b>not bad</b>
body:
I think your idea of Fain killing the Dark One is not bad, but here's my view: Fain has in himself all the evils he can get (Shadar Logoth's, the Dark One's, and Machin Chin's - remember book two, he orders the Wind to keep guard-). Fain would thus be a good candidate to REPLACE the dark One, in the hypothesis 9already suggested by somebody) that the Dark One is a (powerful) man who "discovered" the True Power. So, Rand would (could) kill (desroy, ban, etc.) the Dark One, and fain would set himself (somehow, don't ask how please...) as the new evil Overlord.<p>I don't know how it sounds, but I like it...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b><font color="dark yellow">A</font><font color="red">n</font><font color="orange">an</font><font color="red">k</font><font color="dark yellow">e</font></b><br />Creator of the <i>Glistering and Shining New and Improved Advanced Warder Spoon</i><br />Warder to Corail<br />Disciple-restaurator of WOOPAH!&#8482;<br />Vice-President of <b>BucketBaby's</b> fanclub -She Rocks!<br /></font></p><p></p>


created: 2001-03-23 00:00:00
subject: <b>I like it, I like it a lot</b>
body:
I find this idea of Fain becoming the DO intriguing, and wouldn't mind if it happened.  After all, he has played a rather large supporting role since book One. But I don't think RJ will go that way. We know that Fain is a different sort of evil to the garden-variety Darkfriend, and even different to the Forsaken, but he cannot channel a whit, so how would he be more powerful than the Forsaken, any one of who could easily destroy him using the One Power or True Power. Unless he somehow killed all the Forsaken, which is highly unlikely


created: 2001-03-28 00:00:00
subject: <b>LotR Ripoff</b>
body:
I know Bobby Jordan has more taste than to do that kind of Tolkien ripoff. He's more creative than that, he's done he level best to distance himself from Tolkien since Page 100 in EotW. <p>As to Fain's actual role in the overarching storyline, it seems he is Jordan's wildcard.  The one character who can act as a foil to every other character. He is not beset by other duties. The Shadow wants to overtake the world and remake it in the DO's image. Rand wants to save the world from the DO. Fain/Mordeth wants to use his power for evil. And just to screw with everyone.</p><p>Moridin/Ishamael knows that Fain is enough of a threat to the Shadow's plan to send Slayer/Isam to kill him. I just don't think that Fain is a threat to the Shadow itself - rather he's just a thorn in the side, that needs to be removed.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">RTWL<br />If you meet Buddha on the road - kill him.</font></p><p></p>


created: 2001-04-07 00:00:00
subject: <b>Not a Ripoff, but better</b>
body:
Call it a ripoff if you want, but the fact is, Fain is almost certain to inadvertently aid Rand in the Last Battle.<p>Tolkein, IMNSHO, did a less interesting job with Gollum.  The evil of the ring (Gollum) destroys the evil of the ring (the ring itself).</p><p>Jordan, OTOH, has repeatedly built up Fain as a *different* evil, a vileness that matches the intensity of the Shadow, but remains, as was stated before, foil to both Light and Shadow.</p><p>So when we get to TG, we're left with a few primal forces, plus their minions:  Rand(Good), DO(Bad), Fain(Ugly).  *That* will be the Last Battle, and Rand, who will be "fast on attack, but slow in defense" will need Fain's support at the last.</p>


created: 2001-06-11 14:45:28
subject: <b>Fisher on Black?</b>
body:
Sorteith, I understand your reference to Rand being &quot;fast on attack, but slow in defense&quot; as coming from Moridin's sha'rah game, but I question how you arrive at the Fisher in that stance.<br /><br />Is it your opinion that at Tarmon Gai'don, being on the DO's turf, Rand will be considered in Black territory? If so, I don't think the analogy follows.<br /><br />The conditions are more along the lines of which side of a game is controlling the Fisher, not so much where he stands on the board. Of course, an argument about such breaks down quickly since we haven't a more thorough run-down of the rules.<br /><br />If I remember right, when controlled by white, the wording is something like &quot;Weak on attack, but agile and wide-ranging in defense&quot;, and when controlled by black, &quot;Powerful on attack, but slow and vulnerable in defense&quot;.<br /><br />I could be wrong, my books aren't handy.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> Call me Tim <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-12-31 12:04:14
subject: <b>I HOPE not</b>
body:
Just because Padan Fain is so utterly despicable, it'd be rather cheap if the series ended with him turning to the light instead of getting killed. Besides, he's so full of evil that I doubt there's enough good left in him for him to be ABLE to turn to the Light. Fain's not even human any more, let alone capable of good.<br />And second, how could Fain be powerful enough to damage the Dark One? We know that he has the power to rip up other humans pretty badly, but it'll take more than that for him to actually be able to hurt the DO. Even a powerful channeler like Rand would have to be using the Choedan Kal, probably, and maybe balefire, to get rid of the Dark One. Fain, who can be rendered helpless by a channeler of even moderate strength (see his encounter with Alviarin in the White Tower storeroom in TFoH) wouldn't have the ability to even scratch the DO. Let alone *become* the DO.... the DO is an immortal being, made since the dawn of time as the exact opposite of the creator. It seems unlikely that he could be replaced by a mortal man.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Doesine<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" />Aes Sedai of the Yellow Ajah <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />intermittent lurker<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-02 14:07:16
subject: <b>Fain as DO??</b>
body:
I think it's an interesting idea...BUT how could Fain have the sheer power to overthrow the DO. Sure he has Shadar Logoth behind him, but I get the impression that the DO is a lot more powerful than that. I mean, if it's going to be hard for Rand even with the most powerful sa'angreal in existence, how could Fian do it?? He can't even channel!


created: 2002-06-02 14:10:04
subject: <b>oops</b>
body:
I just realized I juts rephrased what Doesine said...sorry! I didn't even take the time to read the comments! (Hangs head in shame) <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/blush.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-08-17 12:00:32
subject: <b>Right and Wrong</b>
body:
I believe that Fain can and possibly will &quot;help&quot; the light by killing, not in a rush to join the light, Darkfriends, or even major DarkCharacters. I just don't see him being able to take on the DO. It's not possible. Maybe I'm regurgitating what already been said, but I don't see him as being able to stand against the DO. I must disagree with many who claim the DO as a God-like entity. I don't think he is equal to the Creator in the same way that I don't believe Satan to be equal in evil as God(Yahweh) is in good. But I still believe the DO, or any channeler, could hinder or even kill Fain without any trouble. I see Fain reeking havok and causing problems, maybe even major problems. I just Don't see him as the trump card to the DO, or anywhere near a powerful enough being to become the DO.


created: 2002-09-30 17:36:55
subject: <b>What are you basing that respect on Bad Ash?</b>
body:
How many major elements of this story, characters names/behavior, and creatures are blatant rip-offs from Tolkien, the Arthur legend, and the Bible?  There's nothing original in the basic premise of the novel either(young &lt;farmboy/boy from small town/orphaned boy/prince&gt; has &lt;ability/weapon/knowledge&gt; destined to save the world), for examples see every other fantasy novel written in the last 30 years.  There are characters that hold my interest and I enjoy Jordan's writing style but this is not revolutionary literature.


created: 2003-01-25 16:37:31
subject: <b>Two Evil Cancels Out</b>
body:
i agree that padin fain will have a role in the last battle as being the one to actually seal thet bore. remember that rand uses his evil to cancel the dark ones taint on saidin so it &quot;could&quot; be possible to use his evil to close the hole in the dark ones prison. this might be the reason he is being hunted by the dark one now as he realises the danger he posses. also fain is now outside the pattern so to say that he wouldn't be a threat to the forsaken would be wrong he is prob a bigger threat to them than a person that can channel, i can't remember the last time that some one channeled at him so we don't know how it would affect him. i think it would be a very cool ending if fain and the dark one trapped each other in the Prison to fight it out for the rest of time


created: 2006-02-16 04:30:26
subject: <b>You forget...</b>
body:
The destruction of the Great Lord of the Dark would undo reality, much like the destruction of him would do. The only way for the Light to win Tar'mon Gai'don is to completely reseal or remake the Dark One's prison; this way maintaining the balance of Light and Dark and preventing the unravelling of reality.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>Lord Culex al'Sornum</i><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" />Wise men speak because they have something to say; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" />fools, because they have to say something.<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" />The rule is perfect: In all matters of opinion our adversaries are insane.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2006-02-16 04:33:32
subject: <b>Please forgive me</b>
body:
I posted on the wrong topic...my apologies.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>Lord Culex al'Sornum</i><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" />Wise men speak because they have something to say; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" />fools, because they have to say something.<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" />The rule is perfect: In all matters of opinion our adversaries are insane.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2007-12-25 17:59:21
subject: <b>He kills rand's body</b>
body:
as a previous theory i agree with rand &quot;merges&quot; with moridin like isam and luc. I think padan fain will kill lewis therrin who has rands body and luc, fending off isam, will appear and kill off fain and then somehow help the &quot;good guys win&quot;.... the alternative isam takes over and lan kicks his ass.


created: 2001-03-20 00:00:00
subject: <b>then wouldn't that make the banner a...</b>
body:
a terangreal...? i would assume that the horn is a terangreal of some kind (i could be wrong, im alittle behind on my reading).  and i dont remember anyone saying that the dragon banner was a terangreal,or is it more of a personal obligation to fight the DO by the hero/heroines...? i think that the pattern will weave it so that the banner and the horn are at the same place at the same time.


created: 2001-03-20 00:00:00
subject: <b>Um. Who says he's not linked?</b>
body:
This has always bugged me no end.  Mat didn't die in Rhuidean - you can't revive a dead person with simple CPR, as Rand did.  Mat did die in Caemlyn, but due to the balefire paradox, he didn't really.  Therefore, he's still connected to the Horn.  Simple as that. <img src="images/biggrin.gif" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>&quot;I suppose if we couldn't laugh at things that don't make sense, we couldn't react to a lot of life.&quot;</i><br /><br />- Hobbes the tiger</font><p></p>


created: 2001-03-21 00:00:00
subject: <b>GOOOOOOD</b>
body:
I LIKE that!<p>Even of Mat hasn't already "died" (relly die, I mean), he will sometime, we're sure of that. I personnaly think he died when Rand attacked Caemlyn, but that's not the point.</p><p>The horn will NOT be linked with Mat at the last battle.</p><p><img src="images/smile.gif" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b><font color="dark yellow">A</font><font color="red">n</font><font color="orange">an</font><font color="red">k</font><font color="dark yellow">e</font></b><br />Creator of the <i>Glistering and Shining New and Improved Advanced Warder Spoon</i><br />Warder to Corail<br />Disciple-restaurator of WOOPAH!&#8482;<br />Vice-President of <b>BucketBaby's</b> fanclub -She Rocks!<br /></font></p><p></p>


created: 2001-03-21 00:00:00
subject: <b>Not strictly true, imho...</b>
body:
I quote your quote: "We have come to the Horn, but we must follow the banner. And the Dragon."<p>As I see it, this quote *must not* mean, that the Heroes of the Horn must follow the banner and/or the Dragon. Technically it must not, but I believe it, as you as well seem to do. <img src="images/biggrin.gif" /></p><p>But, if they must follow the banner and/or Dragon - what if the banner and Dragon are in different camps? Who will they follow?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">===={::&#187;<b>&#223;@m&#402;</b>&#171;::}====</font></p><p></p>


created: 2001-03-22 00:00:00
subject: <b>Spaeking of....</b>
body:
...The Dragon Banner, does anyone else find it to be a bad idea on Rands part to leave it flying over the stone of Tear? The last time it was mentioned was book 4 or 5 as still being above the stone, and Rand surely knows how important a thing it is. For all he knows one of the Forsaken might know how important the banner is as well (hell Moiraine seemed to have guessed since she told Ingtar that it might save his life when she gave it to him in TGH). So what's he do? Leaves it flapping in the breeze for any number of enemies to go after. I have a strong feeling that this will eventually bite Rand in the ass. Mark my words, before the series is done he'll regret leaving that banner laying around.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-03-22 00:00:00
subject: <b>There is another option kids...</b>
body:
If we agree that Mat's link to the Horn is broken and that the Heros must come to the Horn, but must also follow the Dragon and the Bannor we must remember there is still a way fot the Horn and Heros to be called on the side of Dark. The Drangon can be turned to the Dark, same as anyone else. If Rand turns or is turned then any Darkfriend can blow the Horn and the Heros will come, and they will fight for the Dark.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Wotmania Tournement VI 2007<br />Head Healer<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-03-22 00:00:00
subject: <b>Still linked</b>
body:
Hi!<p>I would have to say Mat is still linked with the Horn.</p><p>The link is broken only at death (as far as we know) and Mat has yet to die.</p><p>He *nearly* died at Rhuidean, but was revived in time.</p><p>Once dead, not even the OP can restore him.</p><p>EJL</p><p></p>


created: 2001-03-22 00:00:00
subject: <b>Sigh</b>
body:
People, Mat DID die by Rahvin's lightning at the end of the FoH!  Rand balefired Rahvin, and guess what...Mat's alive again!  Prophesy fulfilled.  Mat was hit by lightning and dead before he knew it,<br />and brought back as fast as he died so he can't recall ever being dead.  Even though I think he has a clue that something had already killed him.  Who knows, he might think it was those friendly Ael'finn hanging him.<br />But once again Mat was never truly dead during that Rhuidean episode.  Page 438 paperback, Rand listens to Mat's chest and finally hears a slow, weak heartbeat.  And it was slowing... Rand thinks to himself, "But Mat was still alive...He might yet be kept alive."(pg. 438 pb)<br />Mat would've died soon but he didn't because of Rand.  Anyway, because balefire erases anything that the person did, in this case, Rahvin, Mat was back alive again like nothing ever happened and I strongly believe the Horn is still linked to everyone's favorite gambler.<p>P.S.  Do you think Mat, Avi, and Asmo would drop back dead if someone balefired Rand right after he balefired Rahvin?<br />That means Rand's balefire would be undone and Rahvin would be back and anything he did would re-happen.  Then if someone else balefired the person who balefired Rand then Rand would be back and Rahvin would be dead again and Mat, Avi and Asmo would be alive again...<br />Gotta love balefire, me and my friends have a hayday discussing balefire.</p>


created: 2001-03-24 00:00:00
subject: <b>Resigh, Balefireboy...</b>
body:
Do not forget, that if Rand gets balefired his *latest* actions are undone (how long, depends on how strong balefire), and I do not personally think that is quite possible for an ordinary Forsaken to release such a strong balefire that Rands balefiring will cease to exist. It is to far back in the weave by now! <img src="images/biggrin.gif" /><p>(imho)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">===={::&#187;<b>&#223;@m&#402;</b>&#171;::}====</font></p><p></p>


created: 2001-03-24 00:00:00
subject: <b>Problems With Balefire</b>
body:
Welcome to the wonderful world of balefire.  This paradox is why both sides stopped using balefire without any agreement.  Balefire has the potential to unravel the pattern.  It just to unpredictable.


created: 2001-03-28 00:00:00
subject: <b>Tsk Tsk Tsk.</b>
body:
Ok....i'm pissed.  Seriously, i can't believe people are saying that Mat "Died" at Camelyn.  Listen people, "Rand Balefired Rhavin.  Balefire does not 'erase' what the person did, it burns that persons strand in the pattern...how far back is determined by the strength of the channeler.  If Rhavin's thread in the pattern is burned back, Rhavin DID NOT EXIST when Mat 'died.'  I highly doubt that RJ would stress over and over again that balefire burns the pattern unless thats exactly what it does.  So there you have it<img src="images/king.gif" />."  Read WoT and read between the lines.  <img src="images/aessedai.gif" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />the lover of light and wisdom<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" />the all-seeing eye<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />the wandering wotmaniac<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-03-28 00:00:00
subject: <b>It doesn't really matter</b>
body:
It really doesn't matter whether Mat and the Horn are still linked in actuality.  Without exception, everyone who knows about the Horn still thinks that Mat blew it.  Regardless of whether or not he got toasted and then untoasted at the end of FoH.<p>The Horn is still boxed up in yon Tower, but does Elaida know that she has the Horn in her possession? Does Alviarin?  I think, Not. Otherwise, Alviarin woulda just taken it, and since she hasn't, why doesn't Mesaana? Just to stop Rand & Co. from using it. </p><p>The handful of people who know Mat blew the horn, think he's been constantly alive, and take it for granted that he's still linked to it. </p><p>The problem is how the Horn will be removed from its current confines so that Mat may wind it again.  Which he probably will.  Egwene knows the Horn is in the Tower, but I don't think she's told anyone else - of course who's to know if the Horn has really entered into her plans to depose Elaida...amazing how things can spiral outward, no?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">RTWL<br />If you meet Buddha on the road - kill him.</font></p><p></p>


created: 2001-03-29 00:00:00
subject: <b>The Great Hunt for the Theory</b>
body:
In The Great Hunt Moiraine asks Vandene if the Horn and the Dragon are linked.  She answers, "No, only that the Horn must be found before the last battle and the Dragon must be there to fight the Last Battle." PG 327 Paperback.<p>So nothing shows that the Horn will be used for the Light.  There will most likely be any number of smaller skirmishes and battles before the Last Battle.  The Horn can be used to weaken the forces of the Dragon.  What I mean is Rand cannot be everywhere at once.  So the Dragon and the Banner may not be present at every battle where that the Shadow could possibly use the Horn. If it has the Horn.</p><p><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sheepherder <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> <br />Pain in the Dark One's butt <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/myrddraal.gif" border="0" /> <br />Snot on the Door Knob to his hand <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/crazy.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font></p><p></p>


created: 2001-03-30 00:00:00
subject: <b>Mark My words</b>
body:
The Banner is going to become a in Al'Thors hind. I'm fairly sure that Rand needs the Banner found out the Eye of the World that was Lews Therins. In fact I seem to recall that it had a look that seemed like no other banner, made in some way so as not to look woven but a single piece or something of the like.<p>    Rand having carelessly left it flapping over the stone will prove to be the second biggest mistake of the good guy team. The number one blunder was everyone and their little brother forgetting a minor detail like Mazrim Taim being mentioned as part of a plot of the BLACK FREAKING AJAH!!!! but I digress.</p><p>   Anyway my point (assuming that I even have one) is that by now I think that some Forsaken could have had ample time to play capture the flag, and replace it with a reasonable copy so no one ontices til too late.</p><p>   I am by the way just itching to see some dark friend toot the horn even if it is in a parallel world just to see what happens.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font></p><p></p>


created: 2001-03-30 00:00:00
subject: <b>tsk tsk tsk right back Metallica-Man2</b>
body:
Balefire is very tricky.  And I totally agree that everyone should read between the lines.  But for this particular theory on if Mat truly died at Caemlyn you just have to use simple White Ajah logic.  Now I realize crazy balefire just totally undoes things like it never happened.  But if you were to ask Rand if he remembers Mat being briefly toasted he would say "Yes".  Remember afterwards he runs out of the palace and is so relieved to see Mat and even more so, Avi, back alive he tries to hug both of them. (Mat wouldn't have it<img src="images/viking.gif" />  "He did not care if his blast at Rahvin had unraveled half the pattern.  Not if this was the result."(pg 953 pb) Anyway, according to Rand's memory only, Mat has been dead, and because of balefire he is back alive.  Of course, it's only from Rand's memory.  If we had Mat's take on the entire battle he probably say he killed a few trollocs and maybe a myrddral.  He was dead before he even knew it...and back just as fast.  So therefore, Rand is the only one with the whole story and that story is "Mat was dead, but I balefired that one guy and then Mat was alive again.  Pass the oosquai."<br />One question I have concerning balefire is... why can people recall the person they balefired when all of that non-existant person's actions were like they never happened?  You'd think that as soon as Rand balefired Rahvin he'd look around and wonder why he's standing in the middle of the destroyed palace, what's he doing in T'A'R, and where in the foolery is Rahvin.  If all of Rahvin's ACTIONS were undone (Mat, Avi and Asmo being killed) then doesn't that mean that Rahvin himself WASN'T around then to kill Mat and Avi and also lead Rand around the palace?  Why would Rand supposedly be able to retrace the step of the battle, if Rahvin simply wasn't there (from at least before he killed Mat with lightning), to, in fact, HAVE the battle with Rand?!  <br />Weird.  I really hope you follow me.  Could it be that RJ has created a concept too complex for mere humans to understand?  Or am I, in fact, a rambling, raving lunatic? (Don't answer that)  This is what the WoT does to you...please balefire me, then maybe I wouldn't have been around to write this absurdly long theory and all memories of it would be erased from your lives like it never happened.  (sigh)<br />


created: 2001-04-01 00:00:00
subject: <b>Hmmm... perhaps I'm wrong, but are you guys sure...</b>
body:
that the Horn is still in the Tower? Didn't Fain take it along with the dagger? Or perhaps I'm wrong, I've read it quite some time ago.<br />Whitefire.


created: 2001-04-02 00:00:00
subject: <b>Fains opinoins and the Balefire black board</b>
body:
No Fain left the Horn because A) He knew that if he took it there'd be another hunt and he doesn't want that (if for no other reason than that he doesn't like repeating a plot or trick) B) Alviarnin showed up and made sure he left with the dagger and nothing more (regardless if she knows what else was there) C) THat light blasted horn caused him enough troble once thatnk you very much High Lord Turak D) Fains thoughts would go 'bugger the horn I want my knife and finally E) THis gives RJ the chance to tease us with the thoughts of Mat using the horn and getting a war of heroes at Tar Valon.<p>   NOW come close and pay attention kiddies. Let's say that history and the pattern is all on the equivalent of black board. Balefire is then an eraser. If I take an Eraser and wipe the boared nothing on the board remembers what it was. I however held that eraser so I recall the erasing and what brought it about. A part of Rand Al'Thors ubersoul stepped outside of the wheel ever so briefly to erase a part of the pattern. </p><p>   However once your back on the board and of it your memory adapts to the board. So Rand still remebers that he erased Rahvin, but by now he's forgotten why with mabye on or two details like his lady love and best bro being killed. Maybe he only remembers a profound sense of loss that provoked him to erase Rahvin and undo something that he couldn't let sit. </p><p>   He erased the black board even though he couldn't grab the chalk (the creator is the hand that holds the chalk, and the chalk and the black board and the eraser all at once). He will always remember the erasing even if he forgets why he did it.</p><p>   Mat died and that broke the link to the horn, but his death was wiped off the black board, so the link was never really borken anymore. Mat is still linked because his death never happenedin the new pattern post Rahvin. Since his death and the break to the bind was erased the chalk still shows him as linked. Mat has long had the creepy feeling that he's already used up his get out of death card once. He thinks it was Rhuidean because he knows of nothing else that fits. He avoids all things power related so probalby doesn't know that the Power can't restore the dead.</p><p>   By the way Rand wasn't the only one who knows that Rahvin was Balefired. Asmodean was distinctively thinking about the fact that he'd been dead before he got killed again (dude twice in one day, we now have the award for the least lucky of the Forsaken). He has held the eraser I think at least once. He was alive in the war of the power and was at least strong enough to use Balefire before the silent pact. Having held the eraser once he is more sensitive to it's use if it involves him directly. He recalled that he'd been dead and was then on his feet again trying like crasy to A) not die and B) not use the power to stay alive so that he didn't have to reveal who he was.</p><p>   Now if you'll exscuse me I have a bottle of Ooosquai, a nice phat bowl of Two Rivers leafy buds tabac, and I am going to go out of my skull and back so I can forget this whole thing.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font></p><p></p>


created: 2001-04-02 00:00:00
subject: <b>Let's look at the quote again . . .</b>
body:
"We have come to the Horn, but we must follow the banner. And the Dragon."<p>It sounds to me that the Horn calls the Heroes.  That's all.  All being linked to the Horn means is that you're the only Hornblower.</p><p>From the way the quote is worded, the Horn calls them out of T'A'R, yet they follow the Dragon/Banner, no matter who the Hornbloer is.</p><p>But, if Mat isn't connected to the Horn anymore, and, say, one of the Forsaken get hold of the Horn, they could be bonded to it, and effectively take the Heroes of the Horn out of the equation for the Last Battle.</p><p>Whaddya think?  <img src="images/jester.gif" /></p>


created: 2001-04-08 00:00:00
subject: <b>My thoughts on the subject</b>
body:
I am one of those that believes Mat did die in Caemlyn, but rather than trying to explain the whole effects of Balefire, I'll leave it alone. About Rand being the only one who remembered the death of Mat, I would have to disagree, there is a quote right before Asmodean gets killed about how some Aiel swore that they had seen him dead just minutes before, I don't remember the exact wording, but I do remember that states clearly that the Aiel remember him dying.I am not the best when it comes to proving anything, but I hope this helps someone improve their theory.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I'm not dead yet<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-04-08 00:00:00
subject: <b>a thought</b>
body:
When the Horn was sounded for the light the heroes showed up and follwed the dragon (the leader of the light or whatever they called him) and since they were called for the light they follwed also the banner of light (i think that is what the dragon flag was once called) but what i think is if they were called for the dark they would follow not the dragon but the leader of the dark, or that N word i can't think of, but only if they were summoned by the dark. So i think they will follow the wishes of whoever calls them. or maybe not.<p></p>


created: 2001-04-11 00:00:00
subject: <b>Yes balance makes sense</b>
body:
I think that N word you wanted was Nae'Blis (A.K.A. Poppa Shai'tans number one Homie).<p>   This makes sense considering the prevalent theorie that the Horn being blown by a Dark Friend would call back the Major Villians of Legend.</p><p>   It would make sense given all the other balances that we've had that the Horn would call back historic evil doers that had to folloqw the Nae'Blis and/or the Dark one. All we would need now would be an equivalent to the Dragon Banner.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font></p><p></p>


created: 2001-07-09 17:22:33
subject: <b>Mat is still linked</b>
body:
1 Mat &quot;dies&quot; in TSR <br />2 Brigitte is torn out of the Dream World in TFOH<br /><br />In ACOS Brigitte calls Mat the Hornsounder . So Until she was in the Dream World she still felt tied to the Horn and thruogh it to Mat . She didn't feel the link break so I belive MAt is still linked to the Horn .<br /><br />Now why wasn't the conection blocked , I duno , maby Avendesora blokc Mat's dead , maby it was because Rhudiean was shilded somehow against channeling until the battle betwen Rand and Asmodean , so the &quot;signal&quot; didn't reach the horn , or maby something else .<br /><br />Sawa TAWOTA <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sawa TAWOTA <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-21 23:08:19
subject: <b>Rhuidean and T'A'R</b>
body:
I've read through all these rebuttles and counter-rebuttles, and decided... I've had a long day and don't want to think too philosophically tonight.  <br /><br />But just something that caught my eye.  Somewhere in tSR, one of the Wise Ones (teaching Egwene) mentions how there are certain places in the world that you can't enter as a dreamwalker. She mentions Ogier steddding, Rhuidean, maybe a few others, I forget.  Anyway, because you can't see what happens in Rhuidean from T'A'R, it's possible that Birgitte is ignorant that Mat spent time in Rhuidean.  Which could mean she's wrong, that Mat's not longer linked to the horn.  But if she can feel the link, not just know about it, that's different, and Mat's still the official, certified Hornsounder.<br /><br />~Eswana~<br />~smile always~<br />LIVE OUT LOUD<br />


created: 2001-12-02 23:23:28
subject: <b>Just because it was there</b>
body:
I think that when Artur Hawkwing said &quot;And the banner&quot;, it was only because it was there. He knew it had been hidden with the Horn. The Horn was there so he figured the banner was there to. I think if it had not been there, he and the other Heroes would have followed Rand anyway. Lews Theron Telamon to them.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">DEATH TO ALL CLOWNS.<br />The only good clown is a dead clown.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-12 21:06:59
subject: <b>You are forgeting something important</b>
body:
When Hawkwing was called by the horn he said that he has fought with dragons and fought the dragon on other turnings of the wheel.  They are two things that could cause the heros to fight the dragon.<br />1.The dragon turned to the dark.<br />2.The horn was blown by a someone of the dark.<br /><br />So what I am geting at (based on Hawking coment of fighting the dragon before) is that neather the banner, or the dragon has to be present for the heros to fight they will fight for whoever blows the horn.<br /><br />BTW I personaly belive that mat has never realy died.<br />because if balefire was enough to bring him back to life it would be enough to make the horn &quot;forget&quot; that the link was ever broken.<br />this was my first post.  How was it?


created: 2002-03-07 14:18:27
subject: <b>People Believe</b>
body:
Why does everybody believe that the Aes Sedai know everything?  Even though they say that the Dragon and the Horn are not connected doesn't mean they aren't.  Maybe, just maybe, the Aes Sedai are WRONG!!!<br /><br />As for Fain taking the horn...<br />If you recall, the dagger was placed in a heavy metal box, NOT back in the box which held the Horn, oterwise more people would know about the horn in the tower.<br /><br />I definatly, agree with the fact that Mat is still connected to the horn.  The balefire thing again.  Mat did die and the connection was lost.  Since balefire undoes everything that happened (dependind on strength) for a period.  Why would the connection be lost, but not Mat's death?  <br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" />  Read the books again and you will see the truth.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">A man who has nothing for which he is willing to fight nothing which is more important than his own personal safety is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself. - John S. Mill</font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-07 17:25:52
subject: <b>is mat still linked?</b>
body:
Mat did die in Caemlyn, but due to the balefire paradox, he didn't really. Therefore, he's still connected to the Horn. Simple as that. <br /><br /><br /><br />When mat died the link was broken, and when he was revived it was not repaired? There is no way to tell if he is still linked or not. We will all just have to wait for the next book for an answer.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Bodyguard to the Creator, Franco Columbo <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /> Destroyer of Trollocs <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> Wielder of Callandor's twin brother, Kallandor <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" /> Seeier of all <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/seanchan.gif" border="0" /> The Divine Dragon <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/seanchan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br />Couchrunning! It'll move you.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-20 18:15:39
subject: <b>No more balefire talk!</b>
body:
This theory of mine was never about the balefire paradox. Balefire and this theory have nothing to do with each other.. Nothing! Ok with that straight, the reason i believe that Mat is not linked anymore is because he &quot;died&quot; at the hands of the aelfinns in Rhuidean. Technically since he stopped breathing and his heart stopped beating he died. Think buffy the vampire slayer and the kendra alter-vampire slayer situation. Some quotes to back up my line of thought. In the hardback 1) &quot;He [Mat] had been told that he was fated to die and live again - a prophecy, or near enough one- but he was pretty sure that had happened already&quot; p. 568 Winter's Heart, Cold, Fat Raindrops. And 2) &quot;He [Mat] would die and live again, if he had not already&quot; p. 588 Winter's Heart, What the Aelfinn Said. He died, no link, thank you!


created: 2002-11-08 09:01:21
subject: <b>Everyone still has the memories</b>
body:
Everyone still remembers what the balefired person thing did.  When the dark hound attacks Mat he remembers it chewing through the tent even though it did not after it was balefired.


created: 2003-05-04 17:27:45
subject: <b>Mat's Death and the Nature of the Horn</b>
body:
First, I think that Matt did die in Rhuidean, at least technically.  Medically, someone is dead once their hart stops beating, and cpr can be used to bring someone whose heart has stopped beating back to life.  Or other more advanced things - to see more on this topic watch Flatliners, it's a good movie and it's about med students who let themselves die and then revive themself. Anyways, Mat died, medically speaking, and Rand revived him using cpr.  <br /><br />As for the nature of the Horn.  True, Artur Hawkwing said he follows the dragon banner  and not the horn sounder but he also said he'd fought with Lews Therin and against Lews Therin hundreds of times.<br /><br />So this seems to be a contradiction, however if you take into account that the horn was sounded by a good guy and he was in great need, thus not sounding the horn for himself (something that is necessary when sounding the horn).  Thus my theory about the nature of the horn.  If it is sounded for the proper reasons, follower of the light who sounds it becuase of need, then the heroes have no choice but to follow the dragon and the banner of the dragon.  However, if these two prerequisites aren't met, who knows.  <br /><br />


created: 2003-07-11 06:04:55
subject: <b>Are people stupid?</b>
body:
My answer is yes. I am not discounting myself from said &quot;people;&quot; I am fully stupid at times, to which I freely admit now. But right below &quot;No More Balefire Talk!&quot; someone has to go and talk about balefire some more. So I am going to put this theory to bed right here and now with the final and definitive (NOTHING TO DO WITH BALEFIRE!!!!) quote: ~~~ &quot;HE HAD BEEN DEAD FOR SURE UNTIL RAND CUT HIM DOWN AND REVIVED HIM.&quot; ~~~ (Lord Of Chaos, A Different Dance, p. 113 in the hardback). Sorry to be so anal and sarcastic but people are stupid.


created: 2003-07-28 00:22:54
subject: <b>A completely new thought</b>
body:
Ok try this one on for size:  I agree that by this point, Mat has died at least one one way or another.  While he was dead, he was not linked to the horn.  But when he came back he was again.  He was still the same person that sounded the horn, and he was alive.  I do believe those meet the criteria for being a certified Hornsounder.<br /><br />Now, I don't know what would have happened if somebody could have sounded the horn while Mat was dead, and then he came back to life.  And the Creator only knows what would happen if a Hornsounder from a previous Age woke up in a stasis box or something.  Hmmmmm...  Let's think of some more ridiculous paradoxes.<br /><br />Two hornsounders at once, one of them is a Darkfriend, one is Mat.  Tarmon Gaidon comes, the Dragon Banner gets cut in half, and the Light and Dark each fly one half.  The horn somehow gets blown twice in the same battle, once by each Hournsounder.  LOL.  Now, do the Heroes of the Horn start fighting eachother, or do they commit mass suicide?  <br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />how about them apples<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" />Rand will not die<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" />Egwene will<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />ashaman04</font><p></p>


created: 2004-05-22 00:10:01
subject: <b>Concering the Rhuidean &quot;death&quot;</b>
body:
People have denied over and over again that Mat died in tSR because &quot;CPR can't bring back a dead person.&quot;  Now, I'm not sure exactly how Rand revived Mat, however I do have one suspicion; the only thing I can think of really, but I'll get to that in a moment.  First, however:<br /><br />Rand and Mat begin walking to Rhuidean and reach it a little before nightfall the day they set out.  Once there, Mat enters his ter'angreal, Rand enters the other.  We see Mat go and visit the 'finns and then get a rope around his neck.  Afterwards, we are sent off to Rand's POV.<br /><br />Rand spends time looking at the Aiel history, then emerges from the ter'angreal assuming that it is still the same night that he went in.  He cuts Mat down, revives him, and they emerge from Rhuidean as the sun rises.  They both believe that they only spent one night there.  Mat even shows surprise that they were there for so long, saying, &quot;...we were in there all night.  It's nearly sunrise.  I didn't think it was that long.&quot;<br /><br />When they reach Chaendar, where everyone is waiting for them, Egwene says she was worried b/c they were &quot;gone so long.&quot;  Rand expresses confusion, and she informs him that &quot;This is the seventh day.  The seventh day since you all went down into the valley.&quot;<br /><br />So, as Rand thought he had only been there for a night, time was obviously distorted in the ter'angreal that he entered.  The question is, what about Mat's?  There is no way to really know, but it seems that time flowed normally in the one in Tear.  Otherwise, people would have been quite upset if Rand, Mat and Moiraine all vanished for a few days.  Now, if the same is true of the doorway in Rhuidean, Mat spent an hour or two there before he was hung.  This meant that he was hanging from a tree by a rope around his neck for *six or seven days* until Rand emerged from his ter'angreal and saved him!  No one could survive that.<br /><br />When Rand first checks out Mat, he listens for a heartbeat and hears nothing.  Rand gets very upset and pounds his fist on Mat's chest, checking again, and there is still no heartbeat.  He hits Mat another time, and Mat's heart starts up again, really faint and slow, and slowing.  Then Rand does CPR, not daring to use the One Power and &quot;praying&quot; the whole time.  Mat regains consciousness soon after.<br /><br />I think, due to the &quot;seventh day&quot; comment, that Mat was clearly dead.  How did Rand bring him back then?  I'm not sure at all.  Perhaps, as Rand so desperately wanted Mat to live, he actually did channel without realizing it.  I know, he's been channeling for so long that he should be able to recognize when he is doing it by this point, but remember EotW?  The times he used the OP there, the experience was quite different from anything that is described later on (the void, etc.).  Both times he uses it in that book are through desperation.  The first, he is incredibly worried about Egwene, so he channels to make Bela stronger.  The second, he and Mat are in trouble and he channels lightning to save them.  He doesn't realize he is using the OP, doesn't go through any special siezing saidin moment, he merely does it.<br /><br />Now, if RJ has been dropping hints with all his &quot;death can't be healed&quot; comments, as people believe, and a cure will be found to revive those who have died (presuambly by Nyn.), then perhaps this special cure has already been used.  Perhaps, in his desperation, Rand unwittingly used the OP to revive Mat.  Just a suggestion.<br /><br />Whatever the case concerning his resurrection, it seems that all the evidence points to Mat's &quot;death&quot; in Rhuidean being the real thing.<br /><br />So have a flamefest.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> The wheel weaves...and weaves...and weaves...and weaves <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /> It's time for a showdown <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gholam.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-05-22 03:24:15
subject: <b>Just as in the Aiel history terangreal, time can elapse</b>
body:
differently in the doorway terangreal. THe Finns' world is not part of our universe, and the Finns are completely alien.<br /><br />So it is unknown how long Mat spent in the Finns' world since it is not part of the main world. He may well have spent the entire week there and only a short time on the tree before Rand found him.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> Linda Sedai <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Proud member of the Embroiderer's Guild of the White Tower<br /><br /><b><font color="red">FAQ admin</font></b> </font>'cos the FAQ is where it's at.<br /><br /><b>Currently working on:</b> my 70th FAQ<p><a href="http://13depository.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">The thirteenth depository : A Wheel of Time blog</a></p><p></p>


created: 2004-12-08 15:46:58
subject: <b>Your last point has a flaw</b>
body:
Why would Shai-tan, a Forsaken or a Trollok for my part want to blow the horn at the last battle, if the Heroes of the Horn will follow the banner or Rand anyhow??? Doesn't make any sense, unless the blower (if not Mat) doesn't know what he's doing, in wich case I think Shai-tan would true-power the poor chap to stop him from doin that (S(h)a(-)tan can do that at Shayol Ghul)


created: 2005-06-21 14:31:39
subject: <b>No</b>
body:
Mat is still linked to the Horn. It's the law of balefire.<br /><br />Mat gets killed by lightning by Rahvin and Mat's link breaks. Rahvin is balefired. Mat gets UNkilled by Rahvin and Mat's link UNbreaks.<br /><br />Therefor he is still linked.


created: 2007-03-19 09:02:59
subject: <b>Why the link may be broken</b>
body:
This will sound lame, but here's one more reason why the link between Mat and the horn could be broken. In Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Buffy is briefly 'killed' and revived by CPR. Regardless of whether she was technically dead or not, this blip in the grand scheme of things was enough for a new Slayer to be created (Faith). If this were the WoT, the link with the horn would be broken.


created: 2001-03-20 00:00:00
subject: <b>I dont think so</b>
body:
I really dont think that Rand's relationship has anything to do with Perrin and Faile.  You have to keep in mind rand *is* the strongest taveren in the history of the world.  That just *might* have something to do with it.  Sides, he didnt get avi pregnant on his first time at bat.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">A logical progression on the timeline<br />The seperation narrowed down to a fine line<br />To blur the edges so they blend together properly<br />Take you on an audible odyssey<br /><br />Its Goin Down</font><p></p>


created: 2001-03-20 00:00:00
subject: <b>what i know about making babies</b>
body:
when the mom and dad are ready, they tell santa claus to tell the strok to get a baby...the stork goes to a cloud in the sky, and then babies are taken and given to the parents..such a good way...


created: 2001-03-21 00:00:00
subject: <b>Well...</b>
body:
You know, the only reason that we know that Elayne is pregnant is that Min had a viewing. Min has not had a viewing of Faile, but does that mean anything? No. As far as I know, Faile could be pregnant already, without it having started to show.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> Henke <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-03-21 00:00:00
subject: <b>Interesting</b>
body:
I think maybe Faile is sterile and that would make Parrin have to look elswhere (Berelain).  This would be a good way to make Perrin go w/ Berelain b/c i don't think he is capable of seeing the light w/out a little prodding.


created: 2001-03-21 00:00:00
subject: <b>it's possible...</b>
body:
Perrin's been working as a blacksmith for quite a few years now, and that involves a lot of working around forges - which tend to be quite hot. Sperm counts are negatively affected by intense heat, thereby bringing to mind the possibility that Perrin could quite possibly have some fertility problems. <p>Of course there IS the chance that Faile has simply decided that she's too busy for children this early in her marriage, and has taken precautions in the form of some sort of WOT birth control device. I haven't got any real theories on THAT.</p>


created: 2001-03-22 00:00:00
subject: <b>Something to Think On...</b>
body:
It doesn't necessarily have to do with this thread, but I wouldn't be surprised if Min becomes pregnent herself.<br />She's seen the future for Avi and Elayne, but she can't tell viewings about herself!  (At, least not that I know <br />of.)  On Faile and Perrin,  I could see a little hawk-nosed, yellow-eyed bundle of baby in their future.  I highly <br />doubt either are inept at having a baby, just a feeling I have.  I think Perrin would make the best father of the <br />guys in series.  Though Mat is cooler...  Faile discovering she was pregnent while under captivity would be one<br />of the most interesting plot twists in the series.  Imagine Perrin's feelings if he somehow finds out she is <br />pregnent while she is being held gai'shain by the Shiado.  Sevanna, I'd watch out for a wolf infestation if he found <br />out...


created: 2001-03-24 00:00:00
subject: <b>Pregnant Gai'shan</b>
body:
That could be an interesting plot twist indeed.  If it is discovered that Faile is pregnant while she is a captive, we have the making of another power struggle among the Shaido.  Aiel are not allowed to take gai'shan any woman who has children under the age of 10, and 'Unborn' probaby falls into that category, too.  Faile could become a focal point for discontent among the Shaido as they become more and more removed from their traditions.


created: 2001-03-27 00:00:00
subject: <b>birth control????</b>
body:
Min mentioned to Avi that Elayne should have taken X herb to prevent conception, and that she uses it.  Now, isn't is possible that Faile uses something similar.  OK, herbal birth control is not that reliable, but it is better than nothing.  I see Faile as very ambitious, and at the same time sensible.  If she is working on building and consolidating Perrin's (read "her") position and if her husband's nature as Taveren and relationship to the Dragon re-born means potential battles (which it does), wouldn't she try to avoid getting pregnant if she had any choice?  Remember, Saladean women accompany their husbands into battle...this is one tradition Faile would insist on keeping....but if Perrin knew she was pregant, I imagine he would be quite *forceful* in forbidding her, and for once she would obey.  Again, i think she would take measures to prevent that situation occuring until things settle down...


created: 2001-03-30 00:00:00
subject: <b>Faile's Pregnancy</b>
body:
I believe Faile is indeed pregnant.  She seemed eager to concieve, not at all as though she wanted to put it off(this is totally apart from enjoyment).  I think this will cause problems between the Shaido and the Brotherless and between Savanna and the other wise ones.  The reason we don't know yet is because she doesn't know.  Not all women suffer morning sickness, and although the marriage was back in book 4, they've barely been married half a year!  She could have been two months pregnant at the time of her capture.  Keep in mind, they haven't had Min do a viewing in quite a while.<img src="images/wink.gif" />


created: 2001-04-08 00:00:00
subject: <b>Something to chew on...</b>
body:
What makes anyone think that the Shaido will care if she has a baby or not? They don't care that she's a Wetlander. It's against Aiel law for wetlanders to be gai'shain, and she is anyway. It's against Aiel Law for Wise Ones to fight or kill one another, and Sevanna did anyway. Against Aiel Law for a Wise One to be clan chief, as well, as she is anyway. I think I've made my point... And the Shaido might take her kid and ransom it to Perrin or something. That would be BAD, because they might not hold onto their end of the bargain. I don't much like those renegades of the renegade Da'shain Aiel. <br />And this next has nothing to do with this, except that I'm curious. Am I the ONLY person who likes Faile? I've been noticing that people tend to pick on her. She's like me...except I don't look like her.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Ninya Evoneigh<br />Aes Sedai Wanna-be <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> X)</font><p></p>


created: 2001-04-09 00:00:00
subject: <b>Faile</b>
body:
In response to Ninya's message, I (at least) like Faile!  Perrin and Faile are my favorite "couple" in the book.  The first book Faile is mentioned, (what was it, TSR?) she was kinda annoying, playing those mind games with Perrin.  I felt so bad for him!  But, after they got married, I started really liking her. She is an assertive, smart, capable woman who really loves Perrin, just like I do!  I just about cried when I read that they were going to be married, it was so wonderful!!  Back to the subject that this theory is about...Faile would know if she had been pregnant for more than a couple months because "Aunt Flo" would have skipped her visits!  And if Aunt Flo skips her monthly visits, you know you're in trouble!  How long has she been gai'shain?  If it's only been a little while, like a month or so, she could be pregnant, but not be sure yet.  I always have a hard time keeping track of the timeline in the books, I read them so fast, I forget the story isn't happening as fast as I read it. <img src="images/blush.gif" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Arien <br /><br /><i><font color='blue" size="2'>nobody said it was easy/nobody said it would be this hard</font></i></font><p></p>


created: 2001-04-11 00:00:00
subject: <b>Faile is the ideal woman</b>
body:
I have to say that un-like a lot of others I dig Faile and enjoy her presence in the book (same goes for Olver, who gets just as much flack).<p>   First off  Faile shows the time honored truism that the big problems usually start with marriage. Perrins life has become infinitely more complex since he got hitched. Faile is the kind of gal that most guys would like. She's assertive without out being unreasonable over the important things. </p><p>   She's willing to risk her life and get her hands dirty to save her husband and keeps things flowing smooth as possible. He might not always like her methods, but she'll do what she has to and take a lecture later. Any man would be lucky to have a woman like her at his side. Unless he had pissed her off.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font></p><p></p>


created: 2001-06-21 05:45:03
subject: <b>Hee Hee</b>
body:
LOL, Mojo, not a bad idea, find me one too please.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ph34r!</font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-23 23:21:58
subject: <b>Ninya Evoneigh</b>
body:
About the Shaido not caring if Faile is pregnant as gai'shain, I think the Shaido in general would care, Sevannah(sp?) would not.  Sevannah(?) is the bad, bad Wise One who is trying to be a chief, and forced the other Wise Ones to battle, because she knew that they had killed a Wise One.  So, Sevannah probably wouldn't give a crap, but some of the Shaido, like a Maiden or Wise One, might care (and perhaps arrange for her to conveniantly &quot;escape&quot;?).<br />By the way, I also like Faile, she's probably the coolest female in this series, besides Min.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ph34r!</font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-28 22:54:32
subject: <b>Faile is pregnant</b>
body:
This makes an excellent reason why she was suddenly abducted by the Shaido. She has just become pregnant and Perrin will not find out until someone from the Shaido camp (maybe one of the prisoners escapes?) tells him, and then all sorts of wolfish hell is going to break loose....<br /><br />Not that we'll see her again for a few books. Man, RJ has so many plot threads going that he can't even address them all in each book anymore!<br /><br />LTT


created: 2001-10-14 14:36:13
subject: <b>Showing my bias</b>
body:
I just hope Faile -doesn't- have children. *sidesteps all of the Faile fans* Yeesh.<br /><br />It does sound like something RJ would do, however, you're right. Oh well. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b><i><font color="green">EmilyRose</font></i></b> <br />Roving webdesigner and graphic artist</font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-10 10:55:22
subject: <b>i know why...</b>
body:
rand obviously knocked up elayne while perrin's not quite getting faile because rand's a stronger ta'veren!!! that has to be it!!


created: 2002-02-28 22:25:46
subject: <b>The Wolf Dream</b>
body:
Let me just start this with: FAILE RULES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Okay, now, onto the good stuff. I can't remember exactly which book it was in, but some time in the wolf dream Hopper told Perrin that his She will bear him many cubs. I know there is no proof that wolves tell the future, but RJ dosen't usually say things that don't come back later. I agree that it would be cool to have Faile pregnant in the Shaido camp. That would defiantly be a problem.<br /><br />PS. I like Faile<br /><br />PPS. I REALLY like Faile<br /><br />PPPS. Faile is cool<br /><br />PPPPS. FAILE IS REALLY COOL<br /><br />PPPPPS. That's all I have to say<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> Smiter of cornflakes <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/blush.gif" border="0" /> Lover of Legolas <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/blush.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /> Queen of the Sporks <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> The one and only BogDog <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-20 12:07:47
subject: <b>You know how Faile is</b>
body:
I don't believe that Faile or Perrin are sterile.  We all know how Faile is I think she's using some sort of birth control(like Min) and not telling Perrin because she doesn't think it's the right time to have a baby.


created: 2002-05-09 03:27:34
subject: <b>Perrin+Faile = Chimaera</b>
body:
Perrin is a wolf, Faile is a falcon. So i think their combination is a lethal match. Honestly, I think they'll have kids, maybe six kids at the same time! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" /> &quot;Truly, if there is evil in this world, it lies within the heart of mankind.&quot; -- E.Morrison, ToP <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-27 11:47:06
subject: <b>this would be intersesting...</b>
body:
I like Faile Too!<br />but thats besides the point...<br />just to throw out an idea, what if Rand and the entire gang aren't supposed to fight in the last battle but the next generation? Since Mat and Tuon are pretty much married and for all i know Tuon could become pregnant in the next book as well, Mat seems pretty active in his love life...but i am wandering...but in the next few books i bet Mats, Perrin's and Rand's kids are going to meet up become buds and such. They are going to raise an army together and fight the last battle. Then Loial and Edrith's (sp?) kid come into the mix (much later because Ogier's like to take life slow) because he inheirited his father's wandering spirit.<br />I don't know, i am going off on tangents...<br /><br />Oh another idea...Faiel has her kid among the Shaido (sp?) and some wolves tell perrin and it launches a huge wolfwar on the Shaido because Perrin wants to protect his kid.<br /><br />I dont know...just a thought...  <br /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> Snarl of the Wolf King <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> Snarl of the Wolf King <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />As the darkness deepens<br />Young Bull waits,<br />the fires of his anger<br />burning bright in the night<br />His eyes glowing golden<br />Ax shimmering with the cold moonlight;<br />Young Bull crouches<br />awaiting the Dawn<br /><br /></font><p></p>


