# w_comment

created: 2002-02-26 17:57:18
subject: <b>I realy dont care abaut the clif this is jus something i came up with</b>
body:
i think it will be like this:<br /><br />Perrin will hunt down the shaido and it will eventualy be a great battle. Falie will die and the shaido will run.<br />Perrin will want to follow the shaido and hunt down them all but the coulors in his head will be stonger or something, he will know he must get back to Rand.<br />But Aram will say that the should hunt down the shaido.<br />Perrin will have a hard desicion to make and i think that Berlain, Balwer and Morgase will be important for the outcome.<br /><br />I dont know where the clif fits in, i leave that to u guys.<br /><br />


created: 2002-02-27 11:50:49
subject: <b>Perrins unseen cliff</b>
body:
I agree 100% with your theory, but I think I've figured out the unseen cliff. When Perrin first meets Elyas, he is advised to continue hating the axe, and if he starts to love it, it's time to put it down. Thats the cliff. Perrin is hacking the Shaido to shreds, and the whole while getting more familiar and comfortable with the axe. If he begins to enjoy using the axe to kill, he himself will turn into a mindless killer, abandoning all feeling. If this were to happen, it could be possible that he would turn to the shadow, and if he's not there to help Rand, the world is doomed. That is the unseen cliff.


created: 2002-02-27 21:54:58
subject: <b>*Applauds* That's exactly what I think too..</b>
body:
The cliff is falling in love with the axe and the consequences of it.<br /><br />Faile doesn't even have to die for this to happen (and don't think she will).  She could only be hurt badly when rescued and the Shaido leaders would escape. Perrin learns from Faile or other prisoners the full extent of what has been done to them and Aram fuels his hate even more and pushes Perrin to go after the Shaido (much like he did himself by forgetting his living grand-parents and fellow Tinkers to go on a Trolloc-killing campaign with Perrin to avenge his dead parents). <br /><br />At the same time the colors go crazy and the time has definitely come for Perrin to join Rand for some important reason not necessarily known to Perrin (and he has many people under his responsability too) yet Perrin is full of hate and very tempted to forget about the Ta'veren pull and go on a bloody Shaido extermination campaign for revenge's sake when it's quite pointless since Faile is now safe.<br /><br />That would remove the point that we could sympathize a bit too much with Perrin's desire for revenge if Faile has died .


created: 2002-09-29 21:19:40
subject: <b>i don't think so</b>
body:
i don't know what every one else thinks but i dont think that the 2 are canected it it was would not loial be in the dream 2 and i think that the dream will come true in cot during the rescue.<br />


created: 2003-05-06 22:06:49
subject: <b>Twice he has to be there...</b>
body:
To save Rand. Maybe the brambles was one part, and now that he's through that, he has to scale the cliff. Remember Min's viewing that Perrin had to be there to save Rand twice, or he would die? Maybe once was the brambles, and next, (at TG or something? Or, most likley, the Seanchan) he has to scale a cliff to save him. *sighs* Rand causes ALL the complications in these books!


created: 2003-06-08 21:28:41
subject: <b>Egwene`s Dream</b>
body:
First of all, the Dream took place in Bk 8, PoD, pg 308 HC. It could not possibly be related to Bk 6, LoC, with the events of Dumai`s Well.  Egwene`s Dreams do not take place in hindsight.<br /><br />Saying that, I do believe it has to do with the Shaido-in this case while they are holding Faile and the others in Altara.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2003-06-11 13:27:36
subject: <b>I think it is both past, and yet to come.</b>
body:
I think that that battle at Dumai's Wells is just a small part of that dream.  What people said was true, about how once they reach the 'cliff', that something bad would have happened, either Aram and Perrin, (or just Aram) start to enjoy it.  We already see signs of Aram starting to love battle and death already.  I believe Perrin's path will lead Aram to destruction, and that will be enough for Perrin to see just what he was becoming.


created: 2002-02-22 22:20:34
subject: <b>always thought...</b>
body:
that Paidan Fain would factor into the story in a more significant way. After reading this I think it's plausible to beleive that he could infact inherit that role of &quot;Dark One&quot;. The Dark One can't be all powerful because he is indeed less knowlegable and effective at getting his way than the creator. THousands of battles with the dragon would lead me to believe in your theory. I also don't agree wtih the admin. opinion that the dark one would be free in all lands. I think there are worlds where he has been freed and balance has been destroyed thus destroying that world. The Westlands are just a world that hasn't lost this conflict yet. If anything, the portal stones should be proof positive that there was a reason for traveling between worlds, enough so that people spent the time to figure it out. What if the portal stones were the last ditch attempt of a world's people to escape a planet that had lost the battle with their &quot;dark one&quot; and those people are the ancestors of modern Westlandia. Just a thought, nice theory.


created: 2002-02-22 22:47:21
subject: <b>Good job</b>
body:
Very well written theory...and quite humorous I must add.  I agree that the DO is not the antithesis of the Creator, but just a powerful creature with an evil bent (and not too bright).<br /><br />


created: 2002-02-22 22:49:12
subject: <b>I agree</b>
body:
I agree that the DO seems like a complete moron. It is amazing to me that he never learns from his mistakes. Evidently he remembers all of the conflicts that he has had with the &quot;Dragon&quot; through out the ages and he still has not come up with a way to permanently get rid of him. Wouldn't the DO justify balefire in this case? Another question that I have is what does the DO have to gain by destroying the pattern? And, the forsaken are afraid to use balefire for fear that it will destroy the pattern. What do they think they will rule when the DO destroys the pattern. Nobody who works for the DO is going to enjoy whatever &quot;reward&quot; he has in store for them.


created: 2002-02-22 23:17:28
subject: <b>The Dark One</b>
body:
Well I disagree with the theory (thought I believe that it was very well presented).  Aside from the fact that I believe that Jordan himself has given the co-equal status to the DO, I think that you are making a major fundamental flaw which leads to your conclusion.  That flaw is that you are using your conclusion (that the DO is simply another creature) as your starting premise.  The points that you present prove the DO to be a rather stupid and not very powerful creature; however, if you accept the co-equal status of the DO then a whole range of possibilities opens up to explain his behavior.<br /><br />If the Creator and the DO are co-equal (my &quot;Theory of Everything&quot; explains my beliefs of this in more detail) then it follows that any direct conflict between the two of them would be inconclusive.  Therefore, it appears that the Creator and the DO created a way in which they could have decisive conflict (think of it as creating a game).  In this game the Dragon is the only piece of any importance.  If you can accept this (and I think the books make it clear), especially the last part, then everything else can be fairly easily explained.<br /><br />1.a.) Dragon sealing the bore.  While only the Dragon can fully seal the bore, I believe that the books made it clear that only the Dragon can fully break the prison open.  Yes it is a risk for the DO to let the Dragon get powerful enough to seal the bore, but that is probably the only hope that the DO has of getting free.<br /><br />1.b)  Not converting the Dragon.  There could be many reasons for this (for the record HE was trying to convert Rand before he became too powerful).  The most likely reason is that the Creator and the Pattern insure that the Dragon grows up outside the influence of the DO.<br /><br />1.c)  Giving up.  It is probably not part of the DO's nature to give up.<br /><br />1.d)  Instant death and destruction.  Who says that HE doesn't sometimes.  The AoL was a special case.  The DO had to turn non-violent people into depraived mass murderers.  With the possible exception of Semhirage none of the Forsaken were the type to unleash trollocs as soon as the bore was opened.  The DO had to create that mindset among the people.<br /><br />2)  DO weak.  Who said anything about killing the DO?  No one (not even the Dragon) is going to fight the DO directly.  The Dragon may confront the DO, but it is unlikely to be any type of actual combat.  As for the DO not getting free once the bore was made.  That would fall under the rules of the game.<br /><br />3) The DO being unsure.  I don't really follow this one.  The DO doesn't want Rand killed (even in the cleansing it was stated to be a last resort).  While the DO doesn't want Rand killed, it can be allowed for since the DO knows quite well that the Dragon will be reborn again.<br /><br />4)  Fain is probably important in some way to help Rand completly seal the bore.  Since the DO has no need for Fain, it follows that HE would want Fain killed (also Fain is trying really hard to kill Rand).<br /><br />5)  The DO lashed out when the bore was made.  What makes you think that it was an attack?  So far as we know no one actually died at that time (Merin lived, and she was right on top).  It seemed (to me) like a release of pent up energies, not an attack.<br /><br />Like I said I believe that everything can be explained if you hold to two things.  One, the centarlity of the Dragon to the conflict between the Creator and the DO.  Two, if you take the long view for everything.  For the DO victory is perament, but defeat is only temporary.  Therefore, the DO doesn't really lose anything by letting the Dragon reach his full potiental, and at the same time sets the conditions for possible victory.<br /><br />


created: 2002-02-22 23:25:05
subject: <b>Well</b>
body:
Has anyone noticed one very big contradiction in WoT.<br />The Portal Stone worlds are meant to show every possibility.<br />If the DO is free in one he's free in all.<br />Now excuse me if this seems strange but isn't on possibility that the DO would win Tarmon Gaidan. Think about the world where Rand, Loial and Hurin went. There were no people. If there was no people then what would stop the DO from escaping?<br />I'm pretty much saying i agree with this theory.


created: 2002-02-23 00:20:14
subject: <b>To Flame</b>
body:
For ease of argument, all people will be considered in the male gender.<br /><br />&quot;Don't you think it odd that in all the traveling and portal stones and waygates that Randland folk have yet to encounter a creature that is significantly more powerful than them? In fact, on account of their channeling they are more powerful than anything else. &quot;<br /><br />No not odd at all, what as men and women today do we face that is any worse then man itself?  And wasn't it men that made the bore, and the shadowspawn? The only thing that is outside of mans creation that we know IS the dark one. Balance, there has to be balance, and if people can use magic today, maybe our foes would be worse.<br /><br />&quot;1. The DO is way too ignorant. Lets face it, he's powerful but if he really had to fight the Dragon millions of time over the turning of the Wheel do you really think that by now he would be smart enough to: a,b,c and d&quot;: <br /><br />The mantra of the series is that &quot;even myth is forgotten when the time that gave it birth comes again.&#8221;  Hey the DO is sealed up for the creator knows how long, maybe he forgets exactly what happened, or how many times it's gone on, just like man. He has even shown some traits of man, he gets pissed in TLoC when he discusses Ravin dead by bealfire with Demondread, and that EVEN HE can't bring him back. The DO has limits too. Even today most think that man was created in &quot;god's image&quot;, so maybe the DO is more human than we think.<br /><br />&quot;2. The DO is way too weak. C'mon, here we are talking about the foil character to the Creator. And he's gonna get whooped by a bunch of men and their tools. That's like Satan getting shot by a .22 and dying. OK, these tools are a little bigger than a .22 but even an RPG or a CBM vs. Satan wouldn't see Satan dead. On top of that the DO couldn't escape even with the bore open. He could only touch the world.&quot;<br /><br />Your blurring the lines of religion with a story. First we would have to believe that Satan is a real d00d and that we have to mess with him, but that brings up a hole nother can of worms. At any rate, none of us have ever proved satan to be real, maybe he is just a guy, maybe he the construct of man because we don't know why we are alive and we like to order the world in good and evil terms and hey if there is god their must be and anti god (ying yang) and he sure could kick my ass! This is all opinion, if there is a satan, who says he can't die via my Rugar .22?<br /><br />&quot;3. The DO is way too unsure. He keeps changing plans midstream. Example of that would be the new order to kill Rand rather than spread Chaos. Why in the world did he not want Rand dead before? After all Rand, or the hero of the Wheel that is Rand, has imprisoned him thousands and millions of times before. You would think the DO would be a little angry with him by now. Yet the order is not to kill Rand to the point that he even ordered Semhirage to send Trollocs to protect Rand in Tear. Strange behavior.&quot;<br /><br />He didn't want to kill Rand b4 because he wanted to make him his champion, this was his whole plan, to turn Rand, sounds to me that the DO is reaching, but he figures, maybe things will go his way if he can turn the light to dark. Maybe he does remember all those defeats and this is what he has come up with, turn the dragon.<br /><br />&quot;4. The DO wants Padan Fain dead. You may or may not understand this point but it is a theory in and of itself. This theory is already getting long enough so I'll forgo explaining and let you think about it.<br /><br />It is a great plot, evil used to kill evil, is evil squared, who knows what will become of this, we have already seen it counter the counterstroke.<br /><br />&quot;5. The DO lashed out immediately when the Bore was made. Now here is a strategy question for you... When you want to ambush someone do you attack as soon as the first person gets in the trap or do you wait until all of them are in your trap? The DO had to know a hole would eventually be re-drilled in his prison. He was laying an ambush. But he lashed out before they could drill a hole big enough to escape. Seems like he was as surprised as the drillers were but a lot more powerful.&quot; + all supporting paragraphs, which are great.<br /><br />Hrm, hrm hrm hrm hrm. I have always looked at this series as a struggle between good and evil, it is surly more clearly drawn then what we all must face on a day-to-day basis. But again, your points assumes the DO remembers everything, maybe he forgets with time too! I think the ultimate reason behind it is what has been stated, Humans screwed the world up (drilled the bore) and it is up to humans to make it right. If you look at the series as a whole, you have Rand, yeah he is getting arrogant, sometimes I see this, but mostly, he is dealing with the arrogance of other people, and trying to unite them for the greater good. He has to deal with all the nobles, all the greed, all the stuff that bore the hole in the first place, and he is trying to make it such as he remembered things back in his little small community (Everybody helping everybody else out.) He is a democrat trapped in a republican&#8217;s role. He has to use people, when he cares for everybody. He is trying to fix the problems of man, while only creating more, even if they will be for the ultimate good. This story is the ultimate metaphor for the struggle in us all. To do good. It's great, and sometimes I think we over philosophize it, but didn't RG make us do it? (the devil)<br /><br />In the end, I think this is a great theory; it really got me thinking, and wondering, about WoT, and how we react to WoT based on modern spirituality. Very well put, and nice to reply to a deep thinker. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Why on earth would anybody want to kidnap a groundhog?&quot;<br /><br />&quot;I can think of a few reasons, the pervert!&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-23 01:57:52
subject: <b>well, I have an unsubstantiated counterargument</b>
body:
You said :<br /><i>3. The DO is way too unsure. He keeps changing plans midstream. Example of that would be the new order to kill Rand rather than spread Chaos. Why in the world did he not want Rand dead before? After all Rand, or the hero of the Wheel that is Rand, has imprisoned him thousands and millions of times before. You would think the DO would be a little angry with him by now. Yet the order is not to kill Rand to the point that he even ordered Semhirage to send Trollocs to protect Rand in Tear. Strange behavior.</i><br /><br />Well, what if his own power, his True Power, has made him go insane?  It's definitely feasable.  And probably especially so to those that think the DO isn't an omnipotent being, but once a human or something very close.  Also the many millenia alone could have drained his sanity.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">My brain has been swiss cheesed like Scott Bakula's on Quantum Leap</font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-23 04:05:48
subject: <b>I dunno</b>
body:
About the DO launching attack as soon as the bore was open - The DO is a powerful being that can remember the last time this happens, why can't we assume that he doesn't underestimate his enemies and instead thinks that there might be some record of the last time surviving so someone might figure it out and try to stop him. Also when trapped in another dimension I think you might have trouble readjusting to the speed of life that humans on Westland live by, maybe to the DO he did wait a long time.<br /><br />What I think was interesting in your theory is about the other worlds and about the pattern. Maybe Westland didn't remember the last battle because it didn't happen on this world, maybe it happened on another world and Mierin and co traveled to that world by use of the Portal Stones were turned to the DO there, came back and bored a hole to allow the DO who had won the battle on the previous world to come over and try to conquer this one. Maybe that is the pattern, that the creator and the DO are fighting a running battle across one world after another of infinite possibilities. Why do they do this? Hey they are immortal, it's something to wear away the eons doing, beats sitting around being bored. If you play a computer game say Black and White, do you cry about the game peices that get crushed in your game, no you move on to the next level when you finish the current one.<br /><br />DO rules <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-02-23 06:35:32
subject: <b>I dont know but i think that..</b>
body:
the DO's mind is erased at the start of each new permanent sealing. and only have some distant awareness that it have happened before<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" />religious leader of elpimpos&#8482;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />-Bringer of useless things in tough times<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" />Forever friend of Fair Angel<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-23 08:00:50
subject: <b>As fas as I can tell</b>
body:
there are 3 possibilities that counteract almost your entire argument:<br /><br />1. The DO might have an extremely long memory, but even he cannot remember back to the last time it was the third age, so he doesn't know what will happen.<br /><br />2. When the DO is fully in his prison (ie it's complete, not just sealed) his memory is wiped.<br /><br />3. (My own) When the wheel completes its turning and goes from the seventh age to the first age, his memory is reset.<br /><br />It's very clear from the series that the DO doesn't remember the last time the third age came about, for whatever reason.


created: 2002-02-23 10:52:28
subject: <b>Two points:</b>
body:
1. Re: not being powerful enough. He is partially sealed in Shayol Ghul, remember? Therefore, he's not as powerful as he would be if he were totally free.<br /><br />2. One of the fundamental truths about the Wheel is that the differences between turnings become greater with each cycle (this is in the glossaries). Several hundred Ages ago, every 1st, 2nd, and 3rd Age was pretty much the same as the last 1st, 2nd, or 3rd Age. Now, they will be more different. Eventually, they will be completely different. Who knows where it will end. It would make sense that the reason RJ is concentrating on this Age rather than any other is that this Third Age is somehow different, that this time they have reached a &quot;critical value&quot; in the way the Ages differ, and that something drastic will happen this time round. Yes, I know it sounds like I'm saying the series exists without RJ, and that he's just writing about something that's true anyway, but my point is that it would make a good story to have this Age be the one Age where everything changes, the most pivotal point in history. And if you're about to scream &quot;But it's all about cyclical time!&quot;, remember how he loves setting up expectations and then overturning them? Like having a female warder? How many of us thought &quot;Hey, you <i>can't</i> have a female warder!&quot; before realising that RJ was the only person that ever told us that, so why shouldn't he undo it? This is one reason why I suscribe to the &quot;Rand breaks the Wheel&quot; theory, or does something similarly drastic anyway.<br /><br />Point 3 (no, three, three points. <i>Nobody</i> expects the Whitecloak Inquisition!): OK, that last one somehow evolved into a long 5-day hike through the countryside, so I'll keep this one brief. If the DO is the &quot;antithesis of the Creator&quot;, he's not a man, or anything else like one. He is a power/spirit/presence, whatever, like the Creator only evil. It just doesn't make sense for the DO to be just a man.<br /><br />Yours, <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/myrddraal.gif" border="0" />.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">You must chop down the tallest tree in the forest with... a herring!<br /><br /><br /><font face="courier new">l(a</font><br /><br /><font face="courier new">le</font><br /><font face="courier new">af</font><br /><font face="courier new">fa</font><br /><font face="courier new">ll</font><br /><br /><font face="courier new">s)</font><br /><font face="courier new">one</font><br /><font face="courier new">l</font><br /><br /><font face="courier new">iness</font><br /><br />F<font color="#111111">a</font><font color="#222222">d</font><font color="#333333">i</font><font color="#444444">n</font><font color="#555555">g</font><font color="#666666">o</font><font color="#777777">u</font><font color="#888888">t</font><font color="#999999">a</font><font color="#AAAAAA">n</font><font color="#BBBBBB">d</font><font color="#CCCCCC">n</font><font color="#DDDDDD">o</font><font color="#EEEEEE">w</font><font color="#FFFFFF">gone</font></font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-23 11:28:34
subject: <b>I agree in full</b>
body:
Great theory, I've have thought much the same myself. But with the portal stone stuff, if the DO is present in all of them as a different form and the only way to get to these other worlds is by portal stones then who creatd the portal stones. If the portal stones were created by the one power as a kind of ter'angreal then it would be concievable that the worlds are just a -look- at what could happen, with the exception that your there in the body, but hey it's possible to enter the world of dreams in the flesh. So going on the thought that theres a DO in each world, why not use the sa'angreal's with a group of men and women Aes Sedai and destroy the portal stones once for and forall. With all the power these people seem to have why don't they just simply kill the DO? Well would you willing go and fight something that people of greater knowledge have been fighting sense the beginning of time and still not killed, of course not. But Rand and company are not thinking about that they know they HAVE to kill him, no body said anything to them of re-sealing the silly bore. Somebody also said something about the DO being man in a sense. If that was so then like man he would die by blows to the head. So why not just send the DO a present marked explosive don't open and blow the hell out of Shayul Ghoul and watch the mountain crumble down to the ground.


created: 2002-02-23 13:22:14
subject: <b>No</b>
body:
&quot;It would make sense that the reason RJ is concentrating on this Age rather than any other is that this Third Age is somehow different, that this time they have reached a &quot;critical value&quot; in the way the Ages differ, and that something drastic will happen this time round.&quot;<br /><br />No it wouldn't make sense. It goes against what we know to be true about the series. Do you honestly think that Jordan has been setting us up all along, that really he's going to screw the whole idea of the series and have this Age a defining Age unlike any other Third Age before?


created: 2002-02-23 13:32:47
subject: <b>The Nature of the Dark One</b>
body:
Beeker and Windsor both bring up some really good counter-points to a well thought-out arguement - again, someone is really thinking out of the box.<br /><br />I think that this whole argument hinges on the actual nature of the DO. Is he equal/counter to the Creator, or the foil for the Dragon? If he is truely equal to the Creator, than the Creator did not create him, thus asking the question of the origin of the DO. If he is created by the Creator, then he is not equal to the creator, but still probably greater than man. This is a similar situation to God and Satan. God created Satan, Satan rebelled, God allows Satan to exist to show the universe to futuilty of evil. The creator may be allowing the DO his periodic influence in the &quot;real world&quot; to prove to his creation the futility of evil.<br /><br />Drawing from earlier posts in this discussion, RJ has done a good job in this series in demonstrating the problems with an infinitely repeating, cyclical timeline. I believe he said in an interview that one of the greatest contributions to the history of philosophy was the idea of linear time. The cyclical nature in WOT does indeed indicate that the DO's memory is not perfect, or is being periodically erased.<br /><br />My $0.02.<br /><br />Rob<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Rob<br /><br />&quot;I am satisfied that your answer is correct. I am not, however, satisfied that your answer is right...&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-23 14:53:07
subject: <b>A few thoughts...</b>
body:
I have a couple ideas about the nature of the Creator and the Dark One, and they are based on what we know to be true.  <br />1.  RJ has stated several times that the idea of balance is key in the series.  <br />2.  We know that at the moment of creation, the dark one was sealed away.  <br />3.  We know from #2 that the DO existed prior to the creation of the world.  <br />4.  The name &quot;Creator&quot; was given to the entity responsible for creation.(I know this is obvious, but for the argument to be complete, it is necessary).<br />5.  The DO and Creator are equal but opposite.  Exact opposites.<br />6.  Both are immortal.  <br />Therefore, we can make some conclusions from these premises.  Before creation, there was just the creator and the DO, by definition.  If the creator is the beginning, nothing existed prior to the creator.  However, we may ask where the DO came from.  We know the creator did not make the DO.  I think that they both represent the essence of the universe, an essence that exists necessarily and just &quot;is&quot;.  This is comparable to Plato's forms, where the essence of something like &quot;good&quot; and &quot;evil&quot; exist outside reality, and are merely represented in reality.  In other words, there is something that exists outside the pattern that is &quot;Good&quot;, and holds within itself the very essence of Good.  Therefore, before the creation of the world, there was a prior presence of &quot;Good&quot; and &quot;Evil&quot; in pure essence.  If you think about it like this, then the DO doesn't have to be created, and we don't have to account for his nature.  He is the pure essence of Evil that existed to balance the pure essence of Good, and was necessary &quot;a priori&quot;.  One cannot exist without the other; they are co-dependent.  Therefore, we can assume that this battle between Good and Evil is the very essence of the universe, and therefore everything afterwards (the world, reality) are merely representations of this metaphysical precursor.  <br /><br />RJ has shown us that the notion of Creation is attributed to the Light, or Good, while the notion of destruction is attributed to the Dark, or Bad.  Because metaphysically creation and destruction are co-equal, the world must have an equal balance of these.  However, since these essences are seemingly self-aware and independent, it follows that the creator made sure that the DO could not upset the balance in his world, hence sealing him away.  I think a few other theories have touched on this.  However, the notion of Good and Evil that we have today is a little skewed.  Evil is presented as an arbitrary characteristic that is not necessary and is to be avoided.  However, as I stated above, they are necessary as the very essence of this world.  You can't have the notion of creation without the notion of destruction.  You can't understand light if you don't also understand dark.  Therefore, Rand will not kill the dark one and undo the wheel.  Rand will simply ensure the pure balance of these two metaphysical essences.  I believe that if ever Creation or Destruction gained an unfair advantage in the pattern, in other words had more &quot;weight&quot;, then the pattern would be undone.  <br /><br />I know this was long, but I have one more point to clarify, and it is about the portal stones.  It seems that a couple key explanations have been left out, explanations that RJ has given us.  In tGH, Selene (Lanfear) explains the nature of the stones, and therefore the nature of this world.  She states that this world is &quot;the reality&quot;.  It is the one that counts, the one that is actually happening.  All others are mirror worlds of &quot;if&quot;.  When she talks about the world that Rand and co. are in, she says that the worlds of &quot;if&quot; are what could have happened, yet the more improbable the &quot;if&quot; is, the more faded and unsubstantial the world appears.  The world they were in had to do with the Trollocs winning the Trolloc wars.  However, since this was an extreme stretch of &quot;if&quot;, the world was faded and incomplete.  Because of this, we can assume that the DO being free or imprisoned is only important in the actual world that exists, not in the &quot;if&quot; worlds.  Think about it as a hierarchy of worlds.  We have our world at the top, and the decisions and actions of this world have a trickle down effect on the other worlds.  However, this trickle down effect can only go one way, meaning &quot;if&quot; worlds can have no influence over this one.  <br /><br />Well, that ended up being a lot longer that I had first expected.  I hope this clarifies some of the points against the theory.<br /><br />Dedric, the philosopher


created: 2002-02-23 18:10:22
subject: <b>Creator and Dark One NOT equal.</b>
body:
One is chained, the other is not.  This means that one is free to act while the other is not.  This also presupposes that one was not powerful enough to prevent being bound; ergo, there is a greater.<br /><br />As for the DO always losing...<br /><br />He's playing for high stakes -- the highest.  Essentially, the destruction of life, shattering of time, etc.  All of reality screams out against this. The Wheel of Time and the Weave of Life actively work against this, as well as the Creator.  Plus, he is not free to act (repeated). <br /><br />After all, he only has to win once....<br /><br />Plus, regarding the 'thousands of times' the Dragon has opposed him...we heard that from Ishamael, who is a renowned liar. <br /><br />There are amazing forces arrayed against the Dark One.  He's only able to affect the world just so much...bubbles of evil, the True Power (again, the Father of Lies says it's by request, but the naaaaasty side effects could well be so that the Forsaken don't dip into this precious reserve too often), the Forsaken.....<br /><br />We all see that the Dark One DOES have a tendency to conserve his power, though he disguises it as something else.  With the True Power, it eventually will destroy one who uses it too much.  He only brings dead Forsaken back once.  If he could do it freely, why not keep bringing them back?  <br /><br />His conservativism is disguised as pride and acting arbitrarily.  But...he is the Father of Lies.<br />


created: 2002-02-24 17:55:06
subject: <b>Mayb there is another explanation.</b>
body:
Think of the Ying/Yang symbol that RJ alludes to with the AS symbol.  In the Ying/Yang symbol there are also regions where the each side intrudes into the other.  Maybe the symbol represents not the difference between Saidin and Saidar but the fight between the Creator and the DO.  <br /><br />Verin mentions that the AoL AS thought there were worlds they couldn't reach that wove in the other direction.  What if these worlds were the worlds of the &quot;DO&quot; whom the creator of our world is trying to reach.<br /><br />In other words, assuming that WoT is set in the White portion of the Ying/Yang symbol.  (Sorry I don't know much about ancient Eastern philosophy except the symbol.)  SG and maybe the Blight to some extent represent the intrusion of the Black region controlled by the DO.  Remember the weather is completly different in SG, like they are in a different world.  RJ himself, if I read someone else's post correctly, says the blight is in a place different than our world.<br /><br />While this is happening the &quot;DO&quot; region (the Black region) is being invaded by the &quot;Creator's&quot; forces.  Except to the inhabitants of this world (the black section of the YY symbol) our creator is their DO and vice versa.<br /><br />A difficulty with this theory is that it suggests that there is a place in WoT that connects through a bore of our &quot;Creator&quot; to the land of the DO (with the wildly striated clouds Demandred saw.).  Then again maybe such a bore exists in the land of the madmen or else there is no physical connection between the two worlds.<br /><br />Anyway, it is just a thought.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">RabidWombat<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> Let the Lord of Rambling Thoughts rule <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> Proud owner of a 2 star rating! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /> Someone stole all my cookies <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-24 19:26:22
subject: <b>Interesting thought there</b>
body:
If that were the case, it may explain why the Creator won't take a hand. Perhaps he is too busy trying to break into the DO's worlds, in which the DO won't take a hand but has a hero (villian?) instead.<br /><br />I don't think I actually believe that, but it's nice to think about.


created: 2002-02-25 13:48:02
subject: <b>Ok, here goes everything...</b>
body:
Wow, I should've stayed on top of the comments a little better. I'll try to address all the opposition.<br /><br />First and foremost I will make a very important observation. Throughout the series we have NEVER had a POV from an omniscient being. Every thought, statement, and action has been based on personal interpretation of the situation. We can trust peoples' thoughts because I don't see anyone lying to themselves. We have to take verbal statements with some caution because they could be lies. In the same light we have to be careful with actions because some people act against their best interests if persuaded from above. Overall though any counter you give from the books is relative and subject to very careful examination. The same holds true for my arguments. I'm trying, here, to develop a coherent theory that explains the DO apparent lack of knowledge and experience.<br /><br />Jeordam, the DO could very well be the one and only and Verin could be right. She only tells what she knows and we have seen in the past where believing Aes Sedai 100% has led to. They aren't omniscient. BUT...if there is only one DO could it still be put in a place where it could be accessed by all the worlds of the Portal Stones? Of course. As long as there are Portal Stones there is no place the DO can be that one can not access him with the Power. I personally believe tehre is only one but I present the idea that there could be moer for those people who would claim there could be a Dragon on another world through the Portal Stone who is fighting a DO right now too. <br /><br />I believe the DO is imprisoned in a way very similar to the Black Wind in the Ways. In theory the Ways is just another world that was accessed by male channelers after the breaking. Here is the question, can Waygates be made in other worlds accessed by the Portal Stones? If the answer is &quot;Yes&quot; then there could only be one DO. If the answer is &quot;No&quot; then we might have to entertain the possibility that there is more than one DO.<br /><br />Beeker, Jordan has never given the DO equal status with the Creator. Randland people did that. It seems that the ignorant people think the Creator will save them and those that have been around for a while (ie Forsaken and LTT) believe that the Creator isn't going to take any part of the action (otherwise why would anyone be a Forsaken?). No, I think the whole idea of the DO being equal the Creator came from the people of the AoL who couldn't believe that at the pinnicle of their society there was still a being more powerful than them and, like thousands of societies in our own history, they created an explanation to what they encountered. The Romans had their &quot;Gods&quot;, we have our UFO sightings; why is it hard to believe they would believe this is some foil to the Creator? And as Jordan is prone to emphasize in every book...the power of rumor. Theory has a tendancy to very quickly become &quot;knowledge&quot; as an explanation for the unknown reaches the masses.<br /><br />As for the rest of your theory, why would the DO want to create the mindset in the people before taking them over? He has shown himself to have enough power to take over the world on his own if he was totally freed. (He would have to have that mouch power if he can raise the dead and destroy time itself). Heck, he could just have one trolloc and keep resurrecting it until everyone was dead. Why would he need to build a mindset. The other thing to taki into account is Ingtar. Ingtar wasn't a &quot;depraived mass murderer&quot;. But he was a darkfriend just the same. Becuase he was fighting what he felt to be a losing battle. &quot;Victory settles a lot of arguments in mens' minds&quot;.<br /><br />We don't know if anyone will kill the DO but we do know, from Master Fel, that Rand has to destroy the prison if he wants to rebuild it as it was before. He can't just patch it again. The prison was without patch before Meirin and Beidomon and must be again when the wheel turn around. Now whether Rand holds the DO while Nyn and friends build a new prison or Rand kills the DO, I don't know but I think the 2nd is more feasable. Afterall, if you have the power to throw a guy in prison shouldn't you also be able to kill him? Just a thought.<br /><br />We don't know how or why Meirin lived. We know she was one of the first to go to the DO. Couldn't the proximity to the DO influence her that way? Look what happened to Fain's guards in TGH. They changed. Now multiply that by 10,000 and you get what happened to Meirin. This actually goes against your earlier point that the DO would have to change their mindset. Fain doesn't have to change people. He just finds those who have had an evil thought and multiplies it until they are his.<br /><br />Windsor. I find it rather disturbing that you think man is the superior race in the universe but onther than that a good flame. We are the most powerful we have encountered so far, true, but we haven't gone very far away from home. Relativiely speaking, that is like a flea thinking he is the greatest and only intelligence because he is the only flea he has ever seen. Sorry but there are A LOT of dogs out there.<br /><br />I agree the DO is &quot;more human than we think.&quot; I'll use that later. I can see him forgetting once...or twice...BUT 10,000 or 10,000,000. Cmon...that is a little unbelievable on the verge of preposterous.<br /><br />I did &quot;blur the lines of religion with a story&quot; and it was to prove a point. Isn't that all religion is? A story? Especially to these people. Since ancient times people have used religion to explain the unexplainable. In our lives Satan is treated as a foil to God. Satan's power is dependant on which religion you hold to. None of them claim Satan can be beaten by any man-made tool though or even held for that matter. So if Satan here is a weaker foil of God and can't be beaten by us, and there the DO is an equal to the Creator...would it be reasonable to say that without the Creator's direct intervetion the Dragon will lose the Last Battle? Now we have a religion where perhaps we should just have an epic battle.<br /><br />I thank you for helping prove my point. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> &quot;At any rate, none of us have ever proved satan to be real, maybe he is just a guy, maybe he the construct of man because we don't know why we are alive and we like to order the world in good and evil terms and hey if there is god their must be and anti god (ying yang) and he sure could kick my ass!&quot; This has to be the opinion of most of the people in Randland. They meet this powerful being that causes them to do &quot;evil&quot; and so if there is a Creator this must be...a Dark One.<br /><br />I believe there is an aspect of Good vs. Evil in this but I think it is of a similar vein as WWII (Allies vs. Hitler), Cold War (Democracy vs. Communism (I'm not going to argue this one so don't try. In the opinion of the people of the time it was a moral fight.)), etc. I don't know that this is the epic &quot;armageddon&quot; that the Bible refers to though.<br /><br />farmboy, yes, the Dark One could be insane and that could explain everything. Thank you for sharing. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />jamesthornhill, since the DO can interact with people of Randland (speak to them, order them around, control the weather, etc.) we have to assume he knows the time scheme. Can you imagine tring to talk to someone that lived a relative one minute for every one year of yours? I would walk away ofter 10 seconds. Not worth my time. Besides, we haven't really dealt with time contingencies in the book and I don't wee RJ throwing that in now. (It would explain all the &quot;forgetting&quot; that the DO would have to have done though.)<br /><br />thinker, who erases the DO mind? Why? If it the Creator than the DO is no better than some pet that the Creator made for his enjoyment or something. &quot;Damn! Those humans drilled into Fido's cage again. I wonder what they will call him this time...&quot; I don't really think so. However you think of it, if the Creator has that much more power than the DO then the DO is only another creature, albiet more powerful.<br /><br />Three In A Boat, same as above. Why the memory reset? We tend to remember the epic events in our lives. It would be very boring sealed for a few ages (Didn't he refer to it as &quot;a long sleep&quot;? Have to check...). When he wakes up and is released you would think he would remember the previous time. If I were him I would play the whole thing over and over to try to find a mistake or a change that could work.<br /><br />Eyeless Myrddraal, ummm...RJ never told us anything except in chats and stuff. Anything in the books is POV only. We have some pretty knowledgable people (Birgette, Ishmael, Verin) but all their nkowlede is limited.<br /><br />Lol, nice Monte Python insert. But I think it doesnt make sense that the DO is a &quot;a power/spirit/presence, whatever, like the Creator only evil.&quot; I backed up my opinion in the post and here. Your turn.<br /><br />Rob the Poser. &quot;The cyclical nature in WOT does indeed indicate that the DO's memory is not perfect, or is being periodically erased.&quot; OR that the &quot;DO&quot; is not always the same DO and is not the antithesis to the creator.<br /><br />Dedric...*sigh*. Couple of points.<br />1. RJ has stated several times that the idea of balance is key in the series. (True)<br />2. We know that at the moment of creation, the dark one was sealed away. (False. The Creator never told anyone this.)<br />3. We know from #2 that the DO existed prior to the creation of the world. (ergo also False)<br />4. The name &quot;Creator&quot; was given to the entity responsible for creation.(I know this is obvious, but for the argument to be complete, it is necessary). (True, I won't argue semantics)<br />5. The DO and Creator are equal but opposite. Exact opposites. (False. Prove it)<br />6. Both are immortal. (False. Again, prove it.)<br /><br />Your whole post is on the premise that the religion that people in Randland have propogated is true. Why must there be a balance of good and evil? There must be both, true, but a balance? God is more powerful than Satan in most religions (I never could understand Satanism. The same book that teaches us Satan exists also tells us God will defeat him and his followers in the end. Sorry, offtopic rant).<br /><br />Portal Stones. Randland is Lanfear's reality. It is Rand's reality. Could you go to another world, one with people, and say &quot;Haha, I live in the real place and you guys are just one of my 'ifs'. Haha.&quot; No. Because to them you are one of their &quot;ifs&quot;. Lanfear didn't want Rand going to another world (afterall if there was a world for every 'if' couldn't there be one exactly like Rand's?) I like to think of it as the universe. Originally the whole thing was a single point. Then the Big Bang. Now it is immense and still growing. All from a single point. Does the fact thatwe are on Earth make Mars any less significant? No. It could have been one atom slightly to the side of another that put us in these positions instead of the others. Why does one world have to be inferior to another just because of an &quot;if&quot;?<br /><br />RabidWombat. The DO power has an opposite dark force. Remember the two wounds in Rand's side. The One Power has Saidin and Saidar. The &quot;Dark Power&quot; has the True Power and &quot;Fain/Mordeth Power&quot;? Just a though. The Ying/Yang doesn't always mean good/evil. It originally meant male/female and was a symbol of the unity or sex.<br /><br />Everyone - Most theories are dependant on a DO that gets memory wiped or is forgetful. This fact made me think about this idea in the first place. Try to find a solution that doesn't involve memory. That can't be it. No one has a memory that bad that 10,000,000 turnings of the wheel won't cure.<br /><br />My theory, at its base is this. Rand will kill the DO. Padan Fain will get trapped in the Ways and all the Waygates will die (Loial is going around right now closing them). Padan Fain + Mordeth + Black Wind. Bake for 10,000 years. Bore a small hole to see if done. Should explode if ready.<br /><br />Wow that was long enough to be a theory of itself. Kudos to anyone who reads it all.<br /><br />Flame on...Flame on...<br /><br />Ciel, the Baerlon Maid<br />doesn't need titles or smileys<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Ciel, the Baerlon Maid<br />doesn't need any titles or smileys</font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-25 14:12:57
subject: <b>Yes/But</b>
body:
Yes, the DO is the not the Anti-Creator (or the Creator would not have been powerful enough to seal him up in the first place!) But it is not the Anti-Dragon, either!<br /><br />There is only one DO.If it is freed in one world, it is freed in all of them.<br /><br />The DO does not want Padan Fain around because PF is now amalgamated with Mordeth. PF-M is a dangerously looonie guy, of no use to anyone who wants something done right.<br /><br />We do not hear the DO ordering Rand's death. We hear Morridin giving off-hand instructions. Maybe Morry knew that Rand couldn't be killed that easy, 'cos of unfulfilled Prophecies?<br /><br />The DO is sealed away, and is thus cut off from the pattern. With some seals broken/weakened, he can a) affect weather and b)know about events that Demandred knows squat about and c)make Moggy a coursouvra (I've forgotten the spelling).<br /><br />The theory has a few too many loose ends. Can you fill it in a bit?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" />Karlaan <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/myrddraal.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-25 15:11:56
subject: <b>Dark One gets killed</b>
body:
Now I along with probably everyone else who gave it a moment's thought realized the point about the Wheel turning long before Herid Fel pointed it out to Rand.  The only problem is that everything seems to assume the turnings of the Wheel are a continuous thing.  If that's the case, the world isn't in the 3rd age, but in the 1,328,967th age (or whatever number it really is).  People speak of the Age of Legends and there have been occasional references to the age before, but never more than one.  What if the world ends every 7th Age and the DO is dead by then?  What if the Dragon Reborn can kill him, let the next 4 ages work out their problems without the DO interfering, and then have him recreated and bound in the beginning of the First Age.  All that stuff about the Dark One being bound at the moment of Creation would make more sense.  Everyone says that it was the Creator's prison Mierin busted him out of, and at one point someone (possibly himself) refers to LTT's pride &amp; arrogance at trying to match the Creator's work.  There was the strong implication in the early books that the DO's counter-stroke was a just punishment for the hubris of the men (although that wouldn't have been his motivation). Finally even Lanfear seems to concede that the Dark One is less than the Creator when she tells Rand that they could use the Choedan Kal to chalenge the 'Great Lord' or &quot;even the Creator.&quot;  The clear implication is that the Creator is more powerful.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-25 15:55:33
subject: <b>karlaan</b>
body:
Sure. I can tie up a few loose ends.<br /><br />&quot;Yes, the DO is the not the Anti-Creator (or the Creator would not have been powerful enough to seal him up in the first place!) But it is not the Anti-Dragon, either!&quot;<br /><br />Either One: The Dragon is the Creator's hero to fight the Dark One. The Creator is giving man the power to do it.<br /><br />or Two: An interesting quandry. All prophesies have or will come true because if they don't there will not be a world left. The prophesies are steps the Dragon needs to take to defeat the DO. This leads into the question of how does Fortelling work, etc. I think Fortelling (or Prophesying) is the ability to see the pattern the way it needs to be or the way it will be if everything goes &quot;right&quot;. If both always came true then the won't the Dragon always win? I'm not sure. I never really thought about it.<br /><br />&quot;There is only one DO. If it is freed in one world, it is freed in all of them.&quot;<br /><br />We only have Verin's word for this one. But you may be right. I like to think so but why couldn't that DO be &quot;trapped&quot; in his own world and once he is freed into a world with Portal Stones and Waygates he is suddenly able to go to more. Oh, BTW, The Dark One can't channel the One Power. Just thought I would tell you all that. It is obvious when you think about it. He has other powers.<br /><br />&quot;The DO does not want Padan Fain around because PF is now amalgamated with Mordeth. PF-M is a dangerously looonie guy, of no use to anyone who wants something done right.&quot;<br /><br />Too simple. PF has power. Power that could challenge the DO. Power that is constantly increasing. RJ tells us this again and again. Why the buildup if Fain is just going to die out quickly. Fain has an important role to fill. What is it?<br /><br />&quot;We do not hear the DO ordering Rand's death. We hear Morridin giving off-hand instructions. Maybe Morry knew that Rand couldn't be killed that easy, 'cos of unfulfilled Prophecies?&quot;<br /><br />Moridin gave specific instruction to get whatever Rand had in his posessions (Choedan Kal) and to kill Rand if necessary. Killing Rand will be as easy as it is to kill any Ta'veren. If Rand was unkillable because of prophesies unfulfilled then why is he worried? Prophesy only tells the optimal route. Not the only route. Otherwise the DO will always lose. Min's viewings are different I'll address them in another theory post if I get time. I think someone else already has... I'll have to check.<br /><br />&quot;The DO is sealed away, and is thus cut off from the pattern. With some seals broken/weakened, he can a) affect weather and b)know about events that Demandred knows squat about and c)make Moggy a coursouvra (I've forgotten the spelling).&quot;<br /><br />Yes he can only touch Randland but even with the Bore open he could still only touch the land. As for his knowlege of events...remember when Moiraine was questioning PF in EotW and talked about his (Fain's) distilling by the Dark One. We have to assume the DO can take information from the minds of every person that visits him. Of course he'll know stuff Dem doesn't. Do we know of any other person that is developing the ability to manipulate people's minds w/o the Power? Fain. Interesting how much goes back to him. He has to fill a mighty role later in the books but I can't think of a better one than my proposal.<br /><br />Hope that helps.<br /><br />Don't stop flaming....Hold on to that feeling...<br />Streetlight people...<br /><br />Ciel, the Baerlon Maid<br />doesn't need any titles or smileys<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Ciel, the Baerlon Maid<br />doesn't need any titles or smileys</font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-25 16:17:46
subject: <b>Cannoli</b>
body:
To say the Creator rebuilds a DO and a prison every 7 ages means that the Creator is inferior to some other force that makes &quot;him&quot; do it. Why couldn't the wheel be continuous without the Creator throwing in his support? <br /><br />&quot;Everyone says that it was the Creator's prison Mierin busted him out of, and at one point someone (possibly himself) refers to LTT's pride &amp; arrogance at trying to match the Creator's work.&quot; <br /><br />Everyone, that is, except the Creator, and he is the ONLY one who knows. There are no records from the last time the DO got free. There are no records of a DO ever existing. We can not draw on common knowledge from the books. It will not lead to the right answer. Think outside the lines.<br /><br />&quot;Finally even Lanfear seems to concede that the Dark One is less than the Creator...&quot;<br /><br />Lanfear might have some suspicions being the one who freed the DO and being there when all the theories evolved about his nature. <br /><br />Here is a question for you... If you were the DO and were looking to take over a world. Would you make yourself out to be less than you are? There exist two possibilities:<br /><br />1. DO is a powerful &quot;man&quot;. When people made theories he accepted the one that made him to be most powerful in order to scare/influence people most. Maybe he spread the theories himself so as to scare/influence people to his side.<br />2. DO is Evil-Creator-like-being. He killed anyone who said differently. Now no one disputes it.<br /><br />Either way the DO is percieved as the same thing to the normal people of Randland. Since we only get their POV there is no way to tell what is the truth from that.<br /><br />IF I ACCOMPLISH ANYTHING WITH THIS POST IT WILL BE THAT YOU CAN'T ALWAYS TAKE THINGS THAT EVERYONE BELIEVES AT FACE VALUE. YOU CAN'T EVEN TRUST THINGS THAT EVERYONE &quot;KNOWS&quot;.<br /><br />Thanks for letting me vent for a sec. Hope it helps.<br /><br />Flame.<br /><br />Ciel, the Baerlon Maid<br />doesn't need any titles or smileys<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Ciel, the Baerlon Maid<br />doesn't need any titles or smileys</font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-25 18:07:40
subject: <b>Wrong, all wrong</b>
body:
The whole idea of your theory is based upon the fact that the Dark One is &quot;stupid&quot; or some such because he hasn't figured out a better way to win.<br /><br />There are a few facts that we know.<br />1)  There is a Creator.<br />2)  There is a Dark One.<br />3)  The Dark One is sealed in some way.<br /><br />So now we have this.  There is a being who is incredibly powerful.  This being is trapped.  The questions you should be asking are &quot;How did he come to be trapped?&quot;  &quot;Who trapped him?&quot;  and &quot;Why is he trapped?&quot;, not &quot;Why isn't he more effective?&quot;<br /><br />The answer of course to the question of why the DO isn't all that powerful is because he is TRAPPED.  He has all this power, yes, but he <i>can't use it</i>.  He has been sealed.<br /><br />So he's stuck doing pretty much the same thing, time after time after time, because that's ALL HE CAN DO.  Yes, there may be better ways to defeat the dragon, but he can't do any of them.<br /><br />As to the worlds of the portal stones...<br /><br />It is made very clear that there is only one reality.  One.  The worlds of the protal stones are <i>reflections</i>.  Unfortunately, there's no better way to say it than that.  If I look in the mirror, I see another me.  But that doesn't make that other me real.  It's virtual.  Same thing with the other worlds, except that the characters in the story found a way to interact with the reflections.  And they made a way for the reflections to reflect things slightly different than they are in the real world.  It's like looking in the fun house mirrors - that's what you would look like if you were 8 feet tall, but sort of, not really.  That's why they say that the further from reality it gets, the more shaded it is.  It's because you can't bend the truth very much without distorting the whole thing.<br /><br />I hope that explains why this theory is filled with holes.  Comments?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">::  I am the speaker at the dawn of the age<br />::  and I stand at the door to the west.<br /><br />~X~<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-25 20:06:06
subject: <b>Come on</b>
body:
OBVIOUSLY the DO has forgotten what happened in the last third age and all the third ages before that. Why else would he be making the same mistakes again? Even if he was the most stupid being alive, after having it drilled into him that many times with the wheel turning, he'd figure out he should do something different.


created: 2002-02-25 20:33:19
subject: <b>Xoe...</b>
body:
Excellent comments. Blunt responses deserve blunt replies. Let me seal those holes.<br /><br />&quot;How did he come to be trapped?&quot;  - We don't know<br />&quot;Who trapped him?&quot; - We don't know<br />&quot;Why is he trapped?&quot; - We don't know<br /><br />&quot;The answer of course to the question of why the DO isn't all that powerful is because he is TRAPPED. He has all this power, yes, but he can't use it. He has been sealed.&quot; - Right!!!<br /><br />&quot;So he's stuck doing pretty much the same thing, time after time after time, because that's ALL HE CAN DO. Yes, there may be better ways to defeat the dragon, but he can't do any of them.&quot; - Wrong.<br /><br />If every time he does the same thing and it doesn't EVER work then why is there any fear that the DO will take over and destroy the pattern? It's like playing basketball against your little sister...and she is only 2 months old. You are going to win. Period. What is the purpose of the DO existence if he can never win?<br /><br />As to the portal stone comment. Alice went through the looking glass and found a whole new world. Did the fact it was a new world lessen the fact that people lived out their lives there oblivious to the &quot;real world&quot;? Portal Stones are real worlds. There are real people there. <br /><br />With a mirror you are seeing a very physical and completely temporal reflection. That is to say, if you walk away the reflection does too. It interracts with you exactly with respects to physical location and time. The Portal Stones are like a mirror that gets tired of it and veers of its own direction at a random time. Your reflection may or may not appear depending on whether or not it happens to be in the room at the same time. The portal stones were mirror reflections of this world at some time but now they are not. The people there could very well say that Randland and its inhabitants are just &quot;ifs&quot; for them.<br /><br />I agree that the farther you get from reality the more... strange...the land looks but there are an infinite number of possibilities that are very realistic but are distinctly different than the present Randland. Want proof? TGH. Rand travels to Toman Head. How many lives did he live? An infinite number. Every single one of them began the same. Him in Two Rivers. Every single one had a different ending. Every one was one that could be accessed through the Portal Stone. None of them was distorted like the land Rand, Hurin and Loial went to. Were they real? Yes. But it seems that Rand just touched these worlds. Kind of like Egwene and Gaywyn's dream. She knew something was wrong too. It wasn't Rand's reality but it was A reality. Too bad we never found out what happened to the world after &quot;Rand&quot; died...eh? It would answer this question rather quickly. <br /><br />Lastly, my theory isn't solely &quot;based upon the fact that the Dark One is 'stupid'&quot; but more based on the inconsistencies of his actions with &quot;common knowledge&quot; of Randlanders about his origins.<br /><br />I personally (to state it again) prefer the theory that has only one Dark One for all the worlds. I think it makes more sense. But among my friends there are those that argue that if the DO is not a Creator-like-dark-person then he would also be influenced by the &quot;if&quot; worlds and so there would have to be one for each. I like the idea of there being only one trapped in one of those worlds and in all the Portal Stone experimentation they find a world that seems to emit power when it is &quot;touched&quot;...<br /><br />I think Padan Fain will be the next Dark One. I think the Dark One gets...not reborn but similar. Through a long process he becomes who he is and then gets sealed in a prison. People forget, or perhaps never even know. Fain could be accidentally trapped while travelling around and find that the last Waygate was locked behind him. No one would know. Everyone would think the DO was dead. It would be very easy to forget the DO if everyone thought him dead.<br /><br />Helpful?<br /><br />Ciel, the Baerlon Maid<br />doesn't need any titles or smileys<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Ciel, the Baerlon Maid<br />doesn't need any titles or smileys</font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-25 20:51:13
subject: <b>Three In A Boat</b>
body:
Have you been reading my replies? I've addressed this before INCLUDING in the original post <br /><br />You said: &quot;OBVIOUSLY the DO has forgotten what happened in the last third age and all the third ages before that.&quot;<br /><br />WRONG! You should have said &quot;OBVOIUSLY the DO doesn't know what happened in the last Third Age and all the Third Ages before that.&quot;  There is a VERY important difference. And it leads to AT LEAST two observations. <br />1. The DO would have had to forget. (Like you said)<br />2. The DO they are fighting now isn't the same DO the people fought in the previous Third Age. Then he wouldn't have had to forget. He wouldn't have known in the first place. (Like I am saying)<br /><br />This way the Wheel would be complete WITHOUT the Creator jumping in or some funky trickery or obscure fact like &quot;The Dark One forgets everything if the prison is whole but NOT if it is only sealed unless it's a Friday then he only loses half or if the Bore is opened in an age other than a prime number he'll lose 66 plus the Age squared percentage...&quot; BLAH!!<br /><br />Goodness, people it isn't THAT strange of an idea. Take it at the basic level. Work up on your own.<br /><br />Defend your flames! Why are they right? Why could that work? Don't just spout. My theory isn't perfect. Prove me wrong. <br /><br />Ciel, the Baerlon Maid<br />doesn't need any titles or smileys<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Ciel, the Baerlon Maid<br />doesn't need any titles or smileys</font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-25 20:55:03
subject: <b>so I was thinking</b>
body:
about that whole thing about balance and The Wheel of Time.  Well we know that it's not balanced....completely anyway.  The main example that comes to mind is in fact the prison that the Dark One is in and the fact that the Creator is not in a prison.<br /><br />There is that saying that &quot;The Dark One and all the forsaken are imprissoned...by the creator at the moment of creation&quot; and well whatever it says (I don't remember off the top of my head).  Well we know that the Creator didn't imprison the Forsaken that was LTT and the 100+ Companions (unless of course, the Creator imprisoned their souls which were not spun out until the DO was freed for the first time...but whatever).  My main point in all this is that the Creator was the one who originally sealed the Dark One away.  The fact that that can be done, means flat out that the two are not equal, but one has more power over the other.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Near-Brother to Roonas <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /><br />Admin of the Art Gallery<br />Admin of all that is WoT</font><p><a href="http://www.startrek.com" target="_blank">Boldly Go</a></p><p></p>


created: 2002-02-25 23:06:15
subject: <b>It IS possible that...</b>
body:
The creator can be = to the DO, yet one is imprisoned and the other is not.<br /><br />Let's take an example right out of WoT.<br /><br />Nyn vs Moggy<br /><br />They are roughly = in power, but Nyn wins because she distracts Moggy.<br /><br />Creator vs DO<br /><br />They are also =<br /><br />For eons the two are battling in a bunch of nothingness. They are equal, neither is more powerful than the other. The creator gets an idea &quot;I HAVE AN IDEA! LET'S DISTRACT THE DO SO I CAN WIN&quot; then, he creates the wheel of time. At this point, to DO decides to do something about this new thing, &quot;WOW, LOOK AT THAT! LET'S SEE IF I CAN MAKE IT MINE!&quot; so he becomes distracted by the wheel, which the creator binds him in.<br /><br />In this way can we see that =s can beat one another, if there are outside forces to distract one of the combatants.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">___________________<br />Evilmonkey<br /><br /><i>&quot;Madness waits for some. It creeps up on others.&quot;</i><br />-Lews Therin Telamon</font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-26 09:13:53
subject: <b>You</b>
body:
ACTUALLY believe that the DO will be replaced by Fain who will become a new DO? You really believe that and you're not just using it as a new theory?


created: 2002-02-26 12:43:46
subject: <b>-=OSAN-GAR=- and Three In A Boat</b>
body:
-=OSAN-GAR=-, Why would either care about the Wheel in the first place? To use your own example against you...Nyn distracted Moggy with something already there. She didn't have strength to make something of her own. If we are assuming the Creator bound the DO then we have to assume that the Creator held the DO while he was putting him into prison. Doesn't sound like equals to me. <br /><br />The other thing: &quot;For eons the two are battling in a bunch of nothingness. They are equal, neither is more powerful than the other. The creator gets an idea 'I HAVE AN IDEA! LET'S DISTRACT THE DO SO I CAN WIN' then, he creates the wheel of time. At this point, to DO decides to do something about this new thing, 'WOW, LOOK AT THAT! LET'S SEE IF I CAN MAKE IT MINE!' so he becomes distracted by the wheel, which the creator binds him in.&quot; <br /><br />I know you said it in a sort of jest but if the DO has equal power with the Creator why didn't he just make his own wheel. Space is infinite. Why would he want the Wheel for that matter? They're just mortals after all. Why does he care and try to take an active role with the mortals when he's been fighting the Creator? Doesn't make sense. Could you explain his motive a little better?<br /><br />Three In A Boat - Yes I do believe that Fain will be the next DO. It makes much, much more sense to believe that than to believe the DO will be bound again. <br />Fain has already proved himself to have the motive for taking over the world. <br />He has the hatred of the Dragon. <br />He is getting more and more powerful. He can control and/or manipulate every evil creature/human in the world. <br />He can even sense how evil they are. <br />It said once that he could tell if someone even once thought about becoming a DF. <br />He can kill with a touch.<br />Even the Black Wind, who kills Trollocs and Myrdraal, fears/recognizes him.<br />He is immortal now.<br /> I can't see a better alternative if Rand kills the current DO. How would you see the Last Battle ending?<br /><br />Ciel, the Baerlon Maid<br />doesn't need any titles or smileys<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Ciel, the Baerlon Maid<br />doesn't need any titles or smileys</font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-26 17:56:32
subject: <b>For the record</b>
body:
&quot;Windsor. I find it rather disturbing that you think man is the superior race in the universe but onther than that a good flame.&quot;<br /><br />In fact I don't think we are the most superior race in the universe, as I stated with my opening remarks: <br /><br />&quot;No not odd at all, what as men and women today do we face that is any worse then man itself?&quot;<br /><br />Key word there being &quot;today&quot;. Do I personally believe in life outside Earth? Yes, I find it improbable that there is not, but I doubt it will ever be proved in my lifetime. The sheer vastness of space makes it almost impossible to search outside our solar system let alone in different galaxies.  I don't loose sleep over alien invasions, but, for example, some nut in the middle east (some man), as has been all to real lately, can be a serious threat. <br /><br />My main point was that most of what happens in WoT, the good and the evil, is because of man's doing. Men drilled the bore, men created the shadowspawn, they did it because of promises of the Dark One of immortality, ultimate power/knowledge, etc etc. All things outside of mans ability. The Dark One promised his minions that they would be more then mere men if they swore allegiance to him. The Dark One touched the world, and infected men he has turned to the shadow do his bidding. <br /><br />The Dark One is Chaos personified (deified if you will) and it is his influence on man that spreads that chaos.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Why on earth would anybody want to kidnap a groundhog?&quot;<br /><br />&quot;I can think of a few reasons, the pervert!&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-26 20:31:37
subject: <b>What the...</b>
body:
&quot;It makes much, much more sense to believe that than to believe the DO will be bound again.&quot;<br /><br />Are you messin with me? Have you read the series? You don't believe the DO will be bound again...and you believe that Fain will be the new DO. Riiight.


created: 2002-02-26 21:01:08
subject: <b>an apology...</b>
body:
in the original sense:<br />Ciel, again, you are making false conclusions.  Here...<br />1. RJ has stated several times that the idea of balance is key in the series. (True)<br /><br />ok...<br /><br />2. We know that at the moment of creation, the dark one was sealed away. (False. The Creator never told anyone this.)<br /><br />No, but RJ did, and he is the creator that counts.<br /><br />3. We know from #2 that the DO existed prior to the creation of the world. (ergo also False)<br /><br />This is just logic.  Something cannot have an action done to it unless it exists before that action.<br /><br />4. The name &quot;Creator&quot; was given to the entity responsible for creation.(I know this is obvious, but for the argument to be complete, it is necessary). (True, I won't argue semantics)<br /><br />whatever...<br />5. The DO and Creator are equal but opposite. Exact opposites. (False. Prove it)<br /><br />Logic proves it.  If they were not equal, the Creator could just kill dark one and not have this infinite war.  Since the DO is shown to be imprisoned (which is how two equally powerful entities would attempt to control one another, through restriction and not destruction), they are equal.  Also, RJ has stated that they exist in a balance.  Balance implies equality, therefore they are equal.<br /><br />6. Both are immortal. (False. Again, prove it.)<br /><br />Prove it?  Alright...<br />1. Both existed prior to creation of the Wheel of Time<br />2. Existence prior implies existence &quot;outside of&quot;.<br />3. Existence outside of time means that time has no effect<br />4. If time has no effect, then the entity is immortal.<br /><br />Or, here...<br />1. The DO can grant immortality.  <br />2. One cannot grant what one cannot either control or possess.<br />3. A rational being, one that is self-aware, would not grant others immortality and deny it to itself, since the first and foremost universal constant of being self-aware is desire to maintain existence.<br />4. Therefore, the DO is immortal.<br /><br />Is it really that hard to understand?  RJ wanted to show that Good and Evil exist &quot;a priori&quot;. In other words, they exist outside of and regardless of any outside influence.  He has been quoted as saying that the existence of an actual good constituency and an actual bad constituency, both of which would be definable in their own terms, is the main theme of his writing.  The creator doesn't kill the DO because it can't.  The best he can do is shield his creation from becoming overwhelmed by the DO's influence.  The DO wants to undo the Wheel.  why? Because the Wheel is built on the premise of Balance.  However, the DO obviously is not balanced, he is pure evil.  So, for him to exact dominance over the world, he has to destroy it, since that is what he is...destruction.  Without the DO touching the world, there is still evil and destruction, but it is in its natural balance with good and creation, so everything works out.  <br />&quot;Strength comes from belief and order.&quot;  Or, you can logically turn that around and say &quot;Weakness comes from disbelief and chaos.&quot;  Order is balance, chaos is unbalance.  <br />As for your analogy to God and Satan, this isn't relevant.  Satan has been presented as the &quot;weaker antithesis&quot; to God to symbolize the greater strenght of the &quot;righteous&quot;, and is merely a literary technique.  Also, it just supplies humanity's natural desire for a villian to make the story interesting.  Satan as a rational thought is ridiculous.  Any intelligent person, even if they are Christian, will not seriously claim they actually believe in Satan.  RJ is not taking his idea of Light and Dark from Christianity anyways.  This should be apparent to anybody that has ever studied various religions, and I will leave it to you to research this claim since I am already taking up a lot of space.<br /><br />As for the portal stones, I gave you exact proof (from the books).  Lanfear said (i don't have my books, but it is tGH) that there is only one reality, and everything else is &quot;if&quot;.  Therefore, it only matters what happens in this reality.  The more unlikely the &quot;if&quot;, the less real the world looks.  This effect could only be possible if there was an original point of reference, which is the actual reality.  Plus, do you really think that RJ has put this much effort into showing the importance of this world if it was just an arbitrary &quot;if&quot;? No. Not a chance. <br />


created: 2002-02-27 02:05:51
subject: <b>AM I REALLY THE FIRST ONE TO THINK OF THIS?</b>
body:
You guys keep arguing over who is more powerful: Creator or DO, right? Some points to think on:<br /><br />1: The ONLY time that we have heard/seen anything directly from the Creator was in EotW when he spoke to Rand. More on his absence later.<br /><br />2: The Creator created the Wheel. This is obvious, since he is the CREATOR, and therefore he and his counterpart must have come b4 anything they built/created.<br /><br />3: The two ARE equal. Listen, if you want to tell RJ what he knows, be my guest. Me? I'll go by the Guide, thank you. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />4: Since the DO began to break free, the Wheel has brought together the needed elements for the Light to win. Therefore, we can deduce that the Creator created the Wheel, as it serves HIS purpose and not the DO's. <br /><br />What my idea is, is this: The Creator and the DO are equal, right? *everyone now nods* so how is it possible to imprison an entity? 'Physical' barriers wont work outside of time, so it has to be another force, right? The only force powerful enough to hold the DO would be the Creator. <br /><br />Only He would have the power to do such a thing, but why then, since the DO is breaking free, has he not taken a hand in the Westlands' struggle? Answer: He has, by having the wheel spin out 3 ta'varen and everything else they need. It is so simple and obvious! As soon as the DO had the power to break the first seal (before Rand was born, IMO.), the Creator had the power to spin out Rand, Perrin and Mat. As it happened more and more, the 'lightfriends' (sorry. Lack of a better word) got more and more help from different sources. Now, with more and more seals being broken, we see more things go right for Rand: Forsaken die at his inexperienced hand, nations gather under him, Aiel showing up to Tear at just the right time and follow him, the other peoples gather under him (sea finders), he does everything that a ta'varen does and it all helps him defeat the DO. Hmmmmm........ True, it can just as often go bad as it does good, but I think that was the DO trying to exert his influence (limited at this point)on the wheel through Rand to try and create Chaos.<br /><br />Tear away, if you can <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-27 16:02:47
subject: <b>For apologies, clarification and to flame</b>
body:
My apologies Windsor. I missed the subtleties of your statement. I apologize for that. <br /><br />I must admit I don't lose sleep over alien invasions either. If there was an invasion I would bet there would be no limit to the number of people who would sell out their neighbors to the aliens in exchange for some sort of amnesty. But if the aliens were that much more powerful than us I doubt that they would care or accept. Another reason I don't think the DO is as powerful as the Creator.<br /><br />Three In A Boat. You are very good at stating your opinion. <br /><br />Now defend it. <br /><br />It is true that A DO will be bound again. Will it be THE DO that they are fighting right now? I'm not arguing the need for a DO to be bound. I think it will be more climatical for Rand to kill the DO (balefire him or something) and for everyone to think it is over while Padan Fain gets trapped in the Ways to be forgotten.<br /><br />Dedric. Let me try to explain this again.<br /><br />1. RJ has stated several times that the idea of balance is key in the series. (True)<br />&quot;ok...&quot;<br /><br />...<br /><br />2. We know that at the moment of creation, the dark one was sealed away. (False. The Creator never told anyone this.)<br />&quot;No, but RJ did, and he is the creator that counts.&quot;<br /><br />Wrong. I've checked all the chats. He never said this outside someone's POV in the books. IF SOMEONE FINDS THIS IN A CHAT THAT I DIDN'T FIND PLEASE TELL ME.<br /><br />3. We know from #2 that the DO existed prior to the creation of the world. (ergo also False)<br />&quot;This is just logic. Something cannot have an action done to it unless it exists before that action.&quot;<br /><br />Ergo also False. Logically this is false too. Why couldn't the Creator make the DO and his prison at the same time? Why couldn't the DO just be anotehr creature of the Creation in his own little world.<br /><br />4. The name &quot;Creator&quot; was given to the entity responsible for creation.(I know this is obvious, but for the argument to be complete, it is necessary). (True, I won't argue semantics)<br />&quot;whatever...&quot;<br /><br />...<br /><br />5. The DO and Creator are equal but opposite. Exact opposites. (False. Prove it)<br /><br />&quot;Logic proves it. If they were not equal, the Creator could just kill dark one and not have this infinite war. Since the DO is shown to be imprisoned (which is how two equally powerful entities would attempt to control one another, through restriction and not destruction), they are equal. Also, RJ has stated that they exist in a balance. Balance implies equality, therefore they are equal.&quot;<br /><br />Who said this was a war was between the Creator and the DO? It seems like this war is between the humans and the DO with the Creator as a moderator. Want proof? &quot;I have won AGAIN Lews Therin&quot; (TGH) Think about the implications of the word AGAIN. RJ says this refers to a minor victory. The fact that the DO can have minor victories means a win on his part will not destroy the wheel as the DO believes. And why did the DO call Rand &quot;Lews Therin&quot;? Has the Dragon's name been Lews Therin every time he was reborn? Obviously not this time, eh?<br /><br />If the Creator wanted to he could destroy everyone and not have the continuous war. That isn't his point. I don't know what his point is but why put humans at stake? Why not directly intervene every time? BECAUSE HE DOESN'T HAVE TO. That is what his other creations (Humans, Ogier, others) are for.<br /><br />To continue:<br />&quot;Prove it? Alright...<br />1. Both existed prior to creation of the Wheel of Time (Not if my logic above is right)<br />2. Existence prior implies existence &quot;outside of&quot;. (ibid.)<br />3. Existence outside of time means that time has no effect (time is relative don't base arguments on relative things. If the Wheel didn't exist how was time treated to them? The Wheel just defines how time works in Randland.)<br />4. If time has no effect, then the entity is immortal. (Right and Wrong, depends on your definition of immortal. I'll explain below)<br /><br />&quot;Or, here...&quot;<br />1. The DO can grant immortality.<br /><br />Let's define the DO's immortality, shall we? The Forsaken have been promised immortality. Looks like they got it, right? Afterall Lanfear was like 3000 years old and none the worse for wear. But wait, oh yeah, Moiraine killed her. But then, she got ressurected so technically she is still alive. How about Rahvin then? or Sammael? Seems the DO's &quot;grant&quot; of immortality isn't all it cracked up to be. For all intents and purposes he is immortal though. As long as no one finds the way to kill him. But relative to us humans it is immortality.<br /><br />2. One cannot grant what one cannot either control or possess.<br /><br />He posesses an immortality by human standards. But the immortality he grants has very, VERY clear flaws. Obvoiusly he doesn't have &quot;perfect&quot; immortality that he can grant to others. What now is to say he has it himself? (Side note: Padan Fain has the same kind of immortality but he &quot;granted&quot; it to himself. Interesting&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />3. A rational being, one that is self-aware, would not grant others immortality and deny it to itself, since the first and foremost universal constant of being self-aware is desire to maintain existence.<br /><br />This statment no longer applies if you accept my proof that he can not grant true immortality. He can only grant long life and almost perfect resurection. Kind of a back door approach to immortality.<br /><br />4. Therefore, the DO is immortal.<br /><br />Therefore...nothing has been proven about his immortality. He still could be but not by your logic chain unless there is a point you didn't state.<br /><br />To go on, RJ never wanted to show ANYTHING a priori. He is telling a story about these people. He isn't creating a religion or defining the way the world works. He is telling a story and because it is a story we only get the views of the people living it.<br /><br />&quot;He has been quoted as saying that the existence of an actual good constituency and an actual bad constituency, both of which would be definable in their own terms, is the main theme of his writing.&quot;<br /><br />Is the Creator the good constituency? If so why does he not take a more active role as the DO has? Because he want us to solve our own problems? So a being that the Creator himself can not kill is going to be defeated by a bunch of little monkeys with sticks? Hmmm...<br /><br />&quot;The creator doesn't kill the DO because it can't. The best he can do is shield his creation from becoming overwhelmed by the DO's influence.&quot;<br /><br />Maybe but maybe not. Again I'll state the same thing. Prehaps we give the DO too much credit.<br /><br />&quot;The DO wants to undo the Wheel. why? Because the Wheel is built on the premise of Balance. However, the DO obviously is not balanced, he is pure evil. So, for him to exact dominance over the world, he has to destroy it, since that is what he is...destruction.&quot; <br /><br />Balance is important. Balance is created from opposition, not from the lack of it. When you have two opposing forces there is no moral claim one is good and the other evil. They are just different. The moral claims come when you have chosen a side. Evil is evil in this case because that is what we have defined evil to be. We have our own lives to draw upon as well as the dominant POVs from &quot;Lightfriend&quot; characters.<br /><br />&quot;Without the DO touching the world, there is still evil and destruction, but it is in its natural balance with good and creation, so everything works out.&quot;<br /><br />Which proves that the Creator is more powerful because he can make a plethera of good appear in time to counter the Dark One WITHOUT BEING THERE HIMSELF. Can you imaging the imbalance if he himself showed up as well?<br /><br />The &quot;God and Satan&quot; analogy was an attempt to get people to see things on a larger scale. It wasn't meant to be taken 100% literally since by all religions God has power over Satan. I do however still believe in Satan and I have studied many religions (Very petty of you to throw a religios slam in your post. I was shocked after what seemed to be a very good counter-argument).<br /><br />&quot;As for the portal stones...Lanfear said that there is only one reality, and everything else is &quot;if&quot;. Therefore, it only matters what happens in this reality. The more unlikely the &quot;if&quot;, the less real the world looks. This effect could only be possible if there was an original point of reference, which is the actual reality.&quot;<br /><br />Grrr... Let's think about this one at a different level. Why would anyone create a portal link to a world like the one Rand and Hurin visited? &quot;So far from reality&quot; I think someone said earlier? Yet there was an icon for it otherwise Rand couldn't have gone there. Here is a thought. Maybe when the link was made the world was only slightly off the AoL. Hmmm. Carry it forward a bit. Something changed. Decisions led to more decisions. Mix in some Chaos Theory. Suddenly you have the same time but a very different world. Did it still exist? Yes. Was it still and &quot;if&quot; world for Lanfear. Yes. (More so for her because she might have even gone there in the AoL). Lanfear is not a philosopher. Could the 'if' worlds have their own 'if' worlds? Yes. As for the &quot;reality skewing&quot; of the world Rand went to...what you are suggesting may be correct but what also may be is that the pattern there has been mostly unraveled. Like an unfinished cloth that is slowly coming undone. The Creator has no reaon to maintain it and the Dark One has no interest in taking it over (At least I wouldn't think he would). I can offer proof if you can't think of any.<br /><br />Does it work? Respond, Dedric. Your post show insight.<br /><br />Ciel, the Baerlon Maid<br />doesn't need any titles or smileys<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Ciel, the Baerlon Maid<br />doesn't need any titles or smileys</font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-27 16:21:50
subject: <b>Green Gaidin</b>
body:
&quot;1: The ONLY time that we have heard/seen anything directly from the Creator was in EotW when he spoke to Rand. More on his absence later.&quot;  <br /><br />Speculation is that the voice was the Creator. Since &quot;he&quot; said nothing of any real importance I am ambiguous in this claim.<br /><br />&quot;2: The Creator created the Wheel. This is obvious, since he is the CREATOR, and therefore he and his counterpart must have come b4 anything they built/created.&quot;<br /><br />Semantics...all I will say about the first part. Is there a counterpart? We know there is a Dark One. Is he the counterpart you mean? PLEASE SUPPLY QUOTES. CAN ANYONE SUPPLY A QUOTE?<br /><br />&quot;3: The two ARE equal. Listen, if you want to tell RJ what he knows, be my guest. Me? I'll go by the Guide, thank you.&quot; <br /><br />Does the Guide really say the DO and the Creator are equal? I haven't found that anywhere. Can you supply a quote? This would put this little concern of mine to rest. Though it would leave me without an answer to all the questions inthe original post. This is a THEORY. I'm trying to prove it right or wrong and explain some unexplained things.<br /><br />&quot;4: Since the DO began to break free, the Wheel has brought together the needed elements for the Light to win. Therefore, we can deduce that the Creator created the Wheel, as it serves HIS purpose and not the DO's.&quot;<br /><br />Right.<br /><br />&quot;Only He would have the power to do such a thing, but why then, since the DO is breaking free, has he not taken a hand in the Westlands' struggle?&quot; <br /><br />I DON'T KNOW. RJ tells us RAFO. Does that mean he will later? I don't know. Does that mean that the necessary tools are already there (ie Rand and Co.)? I don't know. IF the Creator DOESN'T take part later on then it would stand to reason that the DO is by no means as powerful as the Creator because the Creator's little toys can beat him back into prison. RAFO. I'm just giving you something to look for and try to figure out. Here are the problems I have seen. Here is what I think the solution is. Here is why.<br /><br />Ciel, the Baerlon Maid<br />doesn't need any title or smileys<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Ciel, the Baerlon Maid<br />doesn't need any titles or smileys</font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-27 20:52:11
subject: <b>Ciel...</b>
body:
Ok, I understand your fervor to defend your theory.  However, I believe that this message string has over-extended itself and I refuse to repeat myself.  Let me just say one thing.  POV's and narrations by other characters are the ONLY way that RJ can tell us anything.  I know that he has been known to mislead readers, but only about plot development.  To mislead readers about the entire premise behind the books would be ridiculous, since there is no other way for us to find out except by what he chooses to tell us &quot;within the scope of the story&quot;.  (The BWB is for clarification of &quot;details&quot; within the story, and should be viewed as such).  Remember, an author that writes a fictitious story must somehow incorporate the history of this fictitious world into the actual story.  Therefore, we can just think of the BWB as icing on our cake.  It serves its purpose by alleviating some of the maniacal cravings for closure that most readers have.  However, we can look to the actual story for all answers.  And, because RJ is not writing a series about the creation of the world and the original imprisonment of the DO, we can ASSUME that any information given us through ANY messenger concerning this topic would be true, since it does not do anything for plot development one way or another.  We have to have the knowledge of history, right?  Do you really think that RJ is misleading us on this?  <br /><br />Therefore, unless you maintain that RJ is playing some huge joke on us, you should understand what information is vital to plot development, and what is not.  If it is not vital, and is instead a backdrop to the story, we must take RJ's word for it, no matter if it was &quot;just&quot; a character's narration.  <br />That's all I have to say.  <br />Well, one more thing.  The DO is immortal.  The end.  You can question whether the sun is really that hot, but you can't logically defend a position like that.  This is the difference between a defendable theory and one that is, well, asinine.  I cannot even believe it is necessary to defend the DO's immortality.  <br /><br />


created: 2002-02-28 10:02:16
subject: <b>Well</b>
body:
I've seen nothing to indicate that Fain will be the next DO, I fully expect him to die at some point during the series. I've seen nothing to indicate that the DO will be killed, I have seen indications that he will need to be resealed properly.<br /><br />It's not a topic I care to discuss the much to tell you the truth, so I'll just say that we'll see who's right come the end of the series. Of course, I realise that the chances of both or even either of us still being around here by the end of the series is sliiiiim.


created: 2002-02-28 11:43:20
subject: <b>*Laughs at Ciel*</b>
body:
Do you realise that when 'countering' me above, you cut out the part where my argument came to a head? My whole point was that the Creator had to BE the DO's prison; nothing else is strong enough to hold him in, and this is because they ARE COUNTERPARTS. RJ has MANY times told us that his world is based on BALANCE (if you argue against this then I won't be here to answer you). WHY oh WHY would he base his entire series on it, and yet at the series' base; it's very fundamental idea of good vs. evil, leave it unbalanced? If you can answer that with a straight face and not agree with it, then I don't think I have any need to respond anymore.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-28 14:37:35
subject: <b>Oh, and another thing........</b>
body:
Do you really think that any of the Dragons have gone head to head with the DO? The answer, my friend, is no.<br /><br />We can assume that LTT was equal in the Power to Rand because the Forsaken indicate this. NEWSFLASH: LTT did not defeat the DO one on one. All he did was lead the strike that resealed him. If you've read 'The Strike at Shayoul Ghul' then you would know that LTT's whole basis for striking soon was to reseal the DO before he/it got out of it's prison too far. As someone once put it; &quot;The DO being 'free' in the AOL was like a prison inmate putting his pinky through the bars up to the first knuckle.&quot; If this is the case (and we assume that it is if RJ's writing tells us anything. I'm talking about SaSG here) then LTT didn't stand a chance againt the DO at full power, even with the Choden Kal. True, Lanfear said that he might, but when did Lanfear see the DO? When he was at his pinky's full strength. Also, even though he was barely out, the DO still managed to come within a hair's width of winning.<br /><br />The DO is much stronger than you seem to think or give him credit for.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-28 15:33:55
subject: <b>F*** Balance!</b>
body:
Why does everyone seem to think a balance between Good &amp; Evil is a positive thing?  Just because in the English language, 'balance' has a positive connotation, simple-minded fantasy writers always want to stick in something about a necessary balance between good &amp; evil.  What's the point of fighting for good then? If you win then you have to take a major hit just so &quot;the balance is maintained.&quot; Evil has way too many advantages in acceptable tactics and methods, so why let them have anything you can keep them from?  Did anyone suggest leting Germany have its old boundaries back after the World Wars, in the name of Balance?  Did we let the Confederacy exist after the Civil War for Balance? Or slavery? Evil has no intrinsic value and Good would not collapse without evil.  Evil is the absence of good, not its counterpart, and you can't be too good, despite what Margaret Weis and Tracy Hickman tell you. The Whitecloaks may do evil in the name of good, but that's still evil. Shadar Logoth and the Shadow are opposites, but that doesn't mean one of them is automatically good or that both are automatically equal.  When RJ talks about balance being important in WOT, it doesn't mean good and evil have to be balanced.  Rather it demonstrates that lack of balance in other areas gives advantage to the Shadow over humanity (some of whom are evil, but on the right side).  <br /> I believe that in the world of WOT, the Westlands culture and civilization has become stagnant, due to the lack of balance, and is diminishing according to Ingtar's theory in GH. It's also why the White Tower fell apart. They were already inevitably losing their grip on events before there was any real possibility of the split.  Also notice the Tower's MO when dealing with that same possibility, &quot;They wouldn't dare.&quot;  Rand got away with founding the Black Tower, because no believed in his amnesty in time to prevent it. Part of the Tower's weakness is that they were top dogs for so long that no could challenge their authority, and as a result, they were unable or unwilling to deal with radical and drastic change.  Now, as Nicola foretold, the Guardians will balance the Servants, and the White Tower will be improved as a result.  Even Egwene admits to Elayne that her massive recruitment drive was partially inspired by Rand's amnesty (LoC &quot;When Battle Begins&quot; ch.37).  Furthermore, the White Tower has to re-establish itself to prevent the Asha'man from falling into the same trap as they did.  <br /> Other examples of this kind of balance include the unpredictable effects of ta'veren, where characters describe their effects useing the terms good and evil inadvisably in the context of balance.  Rather than evil, harm might have been a better term.  Marriages aren't necessarily good when one considers the amount of domestic abuse, and random freaky deaths are good if they punish or prevent evildoers.  The truly evil coincidences (or Bubbles of Evil)that happen are actually a result of the Dark One breaking free, not ta'veren, even if they are drawn to them.  <br /> Balance refers to a favorable state of affairs that allows for progress and good to prosper, rather then collapse into anarchy or wither in stagnation.  Just because there is a theme of balance does not prove that the Dark One is just as powerful as the Creator, or necessary in the scheme of things, or even capable of having a positive effect, except inspiring opposition to his cause.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-28 16:17:58
subject: <b>Cannoli</b>
body:
has a point, but went slightly to far with it.<br /><br />Look at the nature of 'good' and 'evil/Chaos'. If we had, say, 20% of the world's population riot, the world would be HURTING. Look at the continantal USA: Roughly 300,000,000 people, right? If 20% riot, that means that the 4,500,000 man army (assuming none of THEM rioted) would have to hold down 60,000,000 people. Fat chance. <br /><br />You see, for a true balance to be struck, the people who create the chaos have to be outnumbered, say, 30-1 or more, because most people don't want to get involved in a war. In that case, really the chaos folks are outnumbered 5-1, but the fight is still even. Why? As Cannoli said above, the dark side has more tactics available to them. This is why I can't understand how people can look at Jordan's characters and say that they are one dimensional, or straight out good/bad. Rand frequently says that he will use DF's if it will bebefit him. How 'Gray' is that? Can you be any more so? <br /><br />What I'm saying is this: The DO may have, say 5% of the Westlands population following him and an army of Trollocs/Myddrall that would number another 5%. So, the DO's 10% actually balances out the Westland's 90% bacause out of the 90%, only about 10-15% will fight. If the Light army outnumbers the Black even 3-2, it will be roughly even because the Trollocs don't have fear of battle as a normal man might. They don't have to think 'what if I don't make it hom e to my family?' <br /><br />Also, I don't remember the Creator ever saying/doing anything outright to help Rand &amp; co other than speak to Rand in EotW and try to influence the pattern in their favor. The reason? He's too busy trying to hold back the DO in his prison (the Creator himself).<br /><br />To any who would argue that the DO is less powerful than the Creator, I ask these 2 questions:<br /><br />1)Has the world EVER, to your knowledge, had to deal with the full force of the DO. If your answer is yes, then by all means; tell me where you found it so I can re-read it. If you answered no, then how could you possibly know how powerful the DO is? Don't forget, HE IS NOT FREE YET. He cannot really take action yet, and already his forces are doing pretty good. Oh, and he managed to completley change the equilibrium of the entire world's climate for almost a year. Not bad for someone who Rand is supposedly going to kill no problem.<br /><br />2) Where in the series does it say that the Creator is more powerful then the DO? Because he imprisoned him? Like I said before, if the DO can act right now although imprisioned, and the Creator can apparently not, then who is truly the more powerful? As before, any quotes on the Creator being more powerful would be appreciated.<br /><br />This is kind of a stupid thing to be discussing, isn't it? 'The DO is less powerful than the Creator.' Give me a break. What's the next theory? &quot;See, Rand really isn't the Dragon. It's...um... Perrin. Yes. Perrin.&quot; That really would make about as much sense as this.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-28 17:12:28
subject: <b>Green Gaidin...</b>
body:
*sigh* What a confusing thought. The Creator is the DO's prison? Wanna think that one through a little bit? So..um...if the Creator is the DO's prison then what did Meirin and Beidomon drill through? Does that mean that man and his tools are more powerful than the Creator now as well? Your &quot;whole point&quot; was deliberately ignored because I really didn't think you would say something like that except spur of the moment. I almost imagined you saying &quot;oops&quot; as you clicked the submit button. If the Creator is actively using his power to hold the DO in and is doing it successfully then how can he not hold humans (Like Meirin and Beidomon) out? Doesn't make sense.<br /><br />Thank you, Cannoli, for what you offered. Now that someone else has stated it maybe people will start to listen. Balance is NOT ALWAYS LIGHT VS. DARK. OK? RJ has about 5,000 mini plots going along right now (ok, maybe not that many but a lot). Every single one of them has a protagonist and an antagonist. Otherwise it wouldn't be a plot. Green Gaidin, you are right, there has to be balance. No argument. I said it from the beginning. RJ's series is dedicated to it. Now open your mind a little. If the Creator is equal to the DO then the Creator is very limited in his power.<br /><br />As far as your second post goes...you really surprise me. I had addressed this though more subtly above. I'm not here to make enemies but to get people to think about the realities of the universe RJ has created and give some insight on how I think the books will end. You seem to have made this a personal vendetta to prove me wrong. Alright. You want flame, I give you flame.<br /><br />&quot;Do you really think that any of the Dragons have gone head to head with the DO? The answer, my friend, is no.&quot;<br /><br />And how many turnings of the Wheel have you been to? Hmm...that's what I thought. In fact we have NO IDEA if the Dragon ever has or ever will face the DO. WE DON'T KNOW IF LTT FACED THE DARK ONE. To quote SaSG &quot;Exactly what occured that day can never be known, only the results. Of the soldiers, not a single man or woman returned to give any account&quot;. Moving on...<br /><br />&quot;If you've read 'The Strike at Shayoul Ghul' then you would know that LTT's whole basis for striking soon was to reseal the DO before he/it got out of it's prison too far.&quot; <br /><br />Which meant in the less-thatn-infinite wisdom of the AoL Aes Sedai it was possible to patch up their mistake in boring a hole in the first place. The only fear was that if they misplaced the patch they would be screwed. Corny example but it works. Ever watch &quot;Jurassic Park&quot;? The opening scene when they are tring to move the Velociraptor. The raptor got a small opening and absolutly slaughtered a man. What would've happened if he got all the way out? Meat fest. <br />Do you understand my point or am I being to vague. Let me put it to you a little more bluntly. The fact that they could contain the DO whether with cuendillar seals or with the Choeden Kal means that their methods can be more powerful than his. The raptor is still in the cage and it looks like we can keep him there. <br /><br />&quot;As someone once put it; &quot;The DO being 'free' in the AOL was like a prison inmate putting his pinky through the bars up to the first knuckle.&quot; If this is the case (and we assume that it is if RJ's writing tells us anything. I'm talking about SaSG here) then LTT didn't stand a chance againt the DO at full power, even with the Choden Kal.&quot;<br /><br />That someone wasn't the Creator, wasn't a Forsaken and wasn't RJ. Therefore it tells us nothing about the power of the Dark One. As fas as the SaSG quote you are talking about I am sooooo completely in the dark that you will have to enlighten me. I have looked all over that little work for anything by RJ that says that Lews didn't stand a chance even with the access keys. It isn't in there. Find it and give me a quote, 'K? Let me help you:<br /><br />http://www.tor.com/shayol.html<br /><br />Understand two things though. Ignorance goes both ways. THe DO could be WAY more powerful than the AoL people thought. He could just as easily be less powerful. Second the SaSG is an incomplete and patched together translation. What is quoted is clear, what is speculated is also clear. RJ never writes everything as the revealed truth. He writes POV and does it very aptly.<br /><br />&quot;True, Lanfear said that he might, but when did Lanfear see the DO? When he was at his pinky's full strength. Also, even though he was barely out, the DO still managed to come within a hair's width of winning.&quot;<br /><br />Lanfear know more about the power of the Dark One than almost ANY OTHER PERSON IN THE BOOKS. Ishmael probably knows more. LTT knows some but Lanfear has been to Shayol Ghul. She has bathed in the presence of the Dark One. She gloats about it. She has seen him in as much glory and power as he is able to show right. If she believes the Choeden Kal can defeat the Dark One we have to assume she might, just might, know what she is talking about. She may be wrong but it is the best thing we have to go off of so far.<br /><br />&quot;The DO is much stronger than you seem to think or give him credit for.&quot;<br /><br />Back it up. Why can you say that when the only thing I have said about the power of the DO is that it does not equal the Creator and than man probably has a chance of beating him. Tell me Rand was Be'lal's equal with swords. Or Ishmael's equal with the power. Or had Asmodean's knowledge when he battled him. How about the battle with Rahvin? Rand SHOULD have been killed every time. But he survived. The Creator didn't give Rand the DO's power but he seemed to have given him all of the DO's luck. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br />I won't presume to say how powerful the DO is. I will say none of us know or can say precisely how close the DO is to coming out of his prison. I doubt this is the case but for all we know we might just have a big flaming head telling us to &quot;pay no attention to the man behind the curtain.&quot; We all have seen that the DO has more power than that but how much more than what we have seen so far has yet to be determined. RAFO is, I guess, the only way to resolve this question. I just posted it in the hopes that someone would find conclusive evidence one way or another.<br /><br />Ciel, the Baerlon Maid<br />doesn't need any titles or smileys <br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Ciel, the Baerlon Maid<br />doesn't need any titles or smileys</font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-28 17:36:53
subject: <b>You posted while I was writing Green Gaidin...</b>
body:
...so here is a reply to your post.<br /><br />I think I have addressed most of the things in your post. Just one or two to talk about.<br /><br />&quot;2) Where in the series does it say that the Creator is more powerful then the DO? Because he imprisoned him? Like I said before, if the DO can act right now although imprisioned, and the Creator can apparently not, then who is truly the more powerful? As before, any quotes on the Creator being more powerful would be appreciated.&quot; <br /><br />Nowhere. Where does it say he isn't? But the same...myths...(about the DO being bound since creation...) are also the source of the idea that the Light is more powerful than the Dark. <br /><br />Now if you are claiming the Creator isn't the Light then you suddenly have no grounds to walk on in arguing with me because the only balance possible then is if the DO is not equal the Creator. So you have to be arguing that the Creator is Light. So the addage, &quot;If you walk in the Light...Dark One can't touch you...&quot; is decidedly false. Because you only have a 50-50 chance (if the DO is == Creator) So in the end the Creator will have to rebuild and reseal the DO. So my question is what the hell is the last battle going to be and why the Dragon to save all humanity then if the Creator is the only entity powerful enough to do it all for them?<br /><br />Or are you saying the DO == Creator BUT Rand can hold the DO and rebuild the prison? Either the Creator can seal the DO in and doesn't need Rand or Rand can do it and doesn't need the Creator. For it to require both would demean the Creator and his abilities. Certainly destroy the image of his omnipotence and raise the question of how he trapped and sealed off the DO the first time without a Dragon to help.<br /><br />&quot;This is kind of a stupid thing to be discussing, isn't it? 'The DO is less powerful than the Creator.' Give me a break. What's the next theory? &quot;See, Rand really isn't the Dragon. It's...um... Perrin. Yes. Perrin.&quot; That really would make about as much sense as this.&quot;<br /><br />No one asked or invited you to post comments. You did that all on your own. Kinda big of you to post comments when you think you are winning and being clever and then make fun of others when your point gets detracted from. Take it like a mature person and either get new evidence or admit you are wrong. I am kind of hoping someone can find something to settle this discussion so I won't have to wait for Tarmon Gaidan to find out.<br /><br />Oh and I did submit a theory once about Padan Fain being the Dragon Reborn but that was just because I was curious to see if we could ever get a 100% for or against vote. I even said that in my theory. It was never posted though. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Ciel, the Baerlon Maid<br />doesn't need any titles or smileys<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Ciel, the Baerlon Maid<br />doesn't need any titles or smileys</font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-28 17:57:19
subject: <b>My Conclusion and My Admission</b>
body:
Dedric. A spark of insight after so much drivel. Thank You. Your post was the best evidence I've heard yet as to why the DO just might be as powerful as the Creator. You are right that it would be a major shock to most readers (well not anymore) for my theory to turn out correct in the end. And it really isn't in RJ's writing style to shock readers in anything. I mean he has some cool plot twists but everything major is predictable a few chapters, if not a few books before it happens. Perhaps your plea to consistency is the best proof we will get. <br /><br />I do not agree that RJ &quot;is not writing a series about the creation of the world and the original imprisonment of the DO, we can ASSUME that any information given us through ANY messenger concerning this topic would be true, since it does not do anything for plot development one way or another&quot;. I think RJ is very much telling us many of these details and in the most realistic way possible. Which means that, in order to make it realistic, we only get the information it would be reasonable for them to have. Accurate or less than. Knowledge and information is one of the key themes in these books.<br /><br />&quot;We have to have the knowledge of history, right? Do you really think that RJ is misleading us on this?&quot; We have to have their understanding, their POV. Nothing more.<br /><br />&quot;Therefore, unless you maintain that RJ is playing some huge joke on us, you should understand what information is vital to plot development, and what is not. If it is not vital, and is instead a backdrop to the story, we must take RJ's word for it, no matter if it was &quot;just&quot; a character's narration.&quot; I agree that we have no choice but to take his word for it. I kinda hope he is playing a joke but that would be OOC for RJ.<br /><br />&quot;Well, one more thing. The DO is immortal. The end.&quot; <br /><br />One more thing. Define &quot;immortal&quot;<br /><br />It has been great. I will not respond to any more posts. If you have comments write me a note. If you care to. Dedric did the best job in his replies as to the only solution we can find so far. Keep thinking though. Life is meant to be lived with open eyes and quick minds.<br /><br />Lol, Three In A Boat. Keep posting, you're great.<br /><br />Ciel, the Baerlon Maid<br />doesn't need any titles or smileys<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Ciel, the Baerlon Maid<br />doesn't need any titles or smileys</font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-28 21:15:53
subject: <b>Wow.</b>
body:
He basically says &quot;You're all wrong and I'm right!&quot; and then leaves.<br /><br />A sad day for the blackboard. *shakes head. Goes off laughing. &quot;Creator stronger than the DO! What will they come up with next?*<br /><br />ps: I'm adding this to my favorite theories. That way, when I submit the question to the wotmania RJ interview: &quot;Are the DO and the Creator equal in strength and are they foils to each other&quot; and he answers &quot;Yes&quot;, I can come back here and just put one of these:   <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-01 10:52:31
subject: <b>Not Much but heres somthing to mess/your brains</b>
body:
I was reading through all these comments and something just popped up in my head, all this is coming straight from my head so bear with me. <br />    I believe that the DO can be killed, and has before. But he's still here. Well that I believe is the Dragon's fault. I believe that when the last dragon killed the DO he took his place, makes sense to me kinda the oppisit of moridin. Now saying that the DO is the dragon before LTT will sense because LTT didn't kill the DO only -sealed- him. Now Rand has it set in his mind to kill him, but this time there's a wrench in the gear see Fain wants to kill Rand but wants the DO to suffer but can't harm him. So why not let Rand kill the DO,Fain kills Rand and Fain is our DO till someone else steps up. Kinda far fetched but hey when I get a thought I let it go. <br /><br /><br />Life is like one elaborate story mankind searches for the reason and the answer.<br />


created: 2002-03-01 13:49:46
subject: <b>Green Gaidin...</b>
body:
...you can be so childish sometimes. <br /><br />I said I wasn't going to post but, Green Gaidin, you had to throw in a little cheap shot.<br /><br />I didn't say &quot;You are all wrong, I am right.&quot; What I did say was that no one knows right now and that I guess I didn't overlook some small detail. The whole purpose of the theory post is to discuss various ideas about the WoT series. I have a theory. I presented it. I was hoping to find conclusive evidence one way or another. We all failed to find any. Does that prove my theory right. No. Does that prove my theory wrong? No. <br /><br />I hope RJ answers your question. I even hope you are right. At least then your childish ego will be inflated a bit more. Much better than me being right and having to put up with your petty snipes for the rest of eternity. Grow up, OK?<br /><br />Jeesh...I'd rather have a friend than an enemy but you really make it hard.<br /><br />Ciel, the Baerlon Maid<br />doesn't need any titles or smileys<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Ciel, the Baerlon Maid<br />doesn't need any titles or smileys</font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-01 15:54:48
subject: <b>A Dragon gone bad</b>
body:
I think the Dark One is a former Dragon (from an earlier Age, an Age lost in the mists of antiquity...<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />) who was turned to the Shadow. This incredibly long-lived being is now ancient and (after all, who knows how long the Aes Sedai of the Age of Legends lived, and this being would have to be much,much older than them) is trying, in insidious (and some fairly (unDarth) sidious) ways, to subvert WoT humanity.<br />No proof available to support this one, except that LTT was called the &quot;Lord of the Morning&quot; and the quote regarding that famous fallen angel &quot;O Lucifer, Son of the Morning, how art thou fallen&quot;.<br /><br />Feel free to flame (that is, if this post ever gets to the Theory Post board, and doesn't go the way of its fellows...)<br />


created: 2002-03-01 16:03:57
subject: <b>Hey Ciel...</b>
body:
.<br />.<br />.<br />.<br />.<br />.<br />.<br />.<br />.<br />.<br />.<br />.<br />.<br />.<br />.<br />.<br />.<br />.<br />.<br />.<br />.<br />.<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-04 16:43:58
subject: <b>sorry</b>
body:
sorry, but i have to disagree with you here. if you remember when Mat sounded the Horn of Valere and the 100 champions came I believe it was Artur Hawkwing that spoke to Rand and said that he has fought with Him (Rand/Dragon) as many times as he has fought against Him. This tells us that the DO has been successful in the past at converting the Dragon to his side and having him as his champion, which is what he is trying to do again. He is not stupid. He knows that Rand can be a powerful ally if converted. We've all seen this before, if you're a Star Wars fan when the emperor tries to bring Luke Skywalker to the Dark Side and when this attempt fails he decides to kill Skywalker instead. Of course, he fails, but that's beside the point. The point is that the emperor (or in this case, the DO) is powerful and seeks more power by gaining powerful allies, or servants i should say. also, about the DO wanting Fain dead, Fain was originally a darkfriend, a servant of the DO. He has since changed into something much more powerful and horrible. Now his power comes from a source other than the DO and he no longer obeys the DO's will. Now, it doens't sound odd that a ruler would want one of his servants punished for straying from his loyalties and trying to rise above him. From the DO's POV Fain is guilty of insubordination and treason so to speak. Treason is a very serious crime, one that was punishable by death in a lot of societies. and the DO is not too forgiving, mildly speaking.


created: 2002-03-14 17:01:23
subject: <b>Like we need someone else chiming in...</b>
body:
I'm not sure that adding anything at this point serves a purpose. I'm not even entirely sure that my comments haven't already been made. The tone of the comments during the last half were such that I skimmed them.<br /><br />I agree with the thought that the dark one may well be insane. We know what the TP does to those who use it - this may well be a reflection of the DO's madness. Or he may be perfectly sane from his own view, but mad from ours. And both may be equally valid, depending on your viewpoint.<br /><br />Much of the arguments revolve around the DO not remembering the last 3rd age / the last time he fought this battle. This is a rather big assumption. As validation, the thought is that he must be either stupid or forgetful to do the same thing time and again (or, he is somehow limited in his choices, and thus does it because it is all he can do).<br /><br />So I'll throw in another (equally valid?) theory.<br /><br />We look at this battle from the viewpoint of a mortal. The DO is working very hard to win, because if he doesn't, he gets imprisoned again for another couple thousand years. Intolerable, so he must be trying desperately to win.<br /><br />I agree he is trying to win, but submit that he is far more careful. The DO has has thousands of times to try to break free. <br /><br />In Groundhog Day, the initial repetitions were careless and wild. Eventually, however, Bill Murray settles down and improves each repetition in small ways. Each day is a little better than the previous, until he has a perfect day and escapes the repetition.<br /><br />The DO is doing the same. He has used roughly this same plan for the last thousand repetitions or more, because this plan has brought him the closest to complete victory. The plan is modified slightly, to see if he can come closer to total victory, or if it reduces his chances of overall victory. His conflicting commands are given, not because he is mad or stupid or confused or forgetful. They are given because those commands have resulted in the closest final outcome.<br /><br />Even those times when the DO apparently won some of the battles, and may have been freer than he is now, did not come closer to giving him ultimate victory (the destruction of the wheel that he seeks).<br /><br />The DO seeks to destroy the Wheel and the Pattern because if the Wheel/Pattern survives, he is always rebound at some point (even if he perhaps wins one revolution of the wheel, he is subsequently bound again. We know this must be true, since he was bound in the AOL).<br /><br />The DO is indeed trying to win this time around. But He is far more interested in the overall victory than he is in this, from his point of view, minor battle. He has lived for hundreds of thousands of years. What is another few milenia in captivity if it gives him the information he needs to come closer to victory next time. He is immortal. He is powerful. Why can't he be patient? (and all the appearances of impatience are for the effects they generate, rather than actual impatience).<br /><br />Just a thought. Flame on!


created: 2002-03-29 22:53:14
subject: <b>Good one Denzien! I agree.</b>
body:
Oh, and Ciel.....<br />.<br />.<br />.<br />.<br />.<br />.<br />.<br />.<br />.<br />.<br />.<br />.<br />.<br />.<br />.<br />.<br />.<br />.<br />.<br />.<br />.<br />.<br />.<br />.<br />.<br />.<br />.<br />.<br />.<br />.<br />.<br />.<br />.<br />.<br />.<br />.<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />It WAS fun though, wasnt it?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-29 19:48:25
subject: <b>Yes, it was fun.</b>
body:
Oh, and one quick problem with denizon's theory. Using that logic wouldn't it be safe to say that eventually the DO will break free. Afterall, with an unlimited # of attempts even a room full of monkeys can compose the complete works of Shakespeare.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Ciel, the Baerlon Maid<br />doesn't need any titles or smileys</font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-22 20:49:48
subject: <b>Well..</b>
body:
I don't know if this has been suggested yet, because I didn't have the time to read 55 BB posts.. o.O;.. And most of them are exceptionally lengthy.<br /><br />I don't believe that we can say with any certainty that the same thing happens every turning of the Wheel.  (Bore opens, Bore is sealed, etc.) .. As I remember it mentioned, this was simply a theory, formulated by the philosopher Elan Morin Tedronai (Ishamael).  I believe this is in TBWB.


created: 2002-05-28 17:09:12
subject: <b>Okay</b>
body:
Your actually proving that theres a new DO for every turning of the flamin wheel of time.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cusser of words.<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> Killer of flamin darkfriends.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /><br />    Uno1<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/uno.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-24 10:14:18
subject: <b>Love Uno1's signature...</b>
body:
&quot;Cusser of words&quot;...lol<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="white">Do NOT highlight this space...</font><b><font color="#FF99FF"><i>P</i></font><font color="#006699"> Floyd</font></b><font color="white">...or you'll be in trouble!</font><br /><br /><font color="white">............</font><i>'You're a pacifist with a gun, Eileen.'</i> - Sam Roberts</font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-26 06:22:46
subject: <b>retrospect</b>
body:
Has anyone considered that although the creator and darkone are all powerfull they aren't all knoweledgable. The darkone may just not associate rand with the dragon at the begining, and just assume he is someone destined for great use of the power. Most things are clearer in retrospect.<br />Just one of my ideas to get out there.<br />If the dark one and the creator are both equal in power, why would only the darkone be locked in a prison? Could not the dark one construct the same sort of design around the creator? This could explain why the darkone has a weak spot on his prison: the creator never finished. Maybe the creator has a weak spot as well, and just needs to be let loose.<br />Sorry if all this has been said before, by the way.


created: 2002-07-05 13:35:23
subject: <b>Equal does not mean &quot;The Same&quot;...</b>
body:
This is a little late but I enjoyed reading both this theory and all of the posts and wanted to add my little two cents real quick.<br /><br />First of all: two things can be Equal without being the Same. Obviously the Creator and the DO are different beings (I think we can all agree on this!) and therefore have different abilities (I would like to think everyone will agree with this). <br /><br />The Creator creates. <br />The DO destroys and subverts.<br /> <br />This would explain why two equals are not in equal positions (i.e. both contained by the other). The Creator created the DO's prison; the DO's expertise lies in destroying said prison. The Dark One can not &quot;create&quot; in the general sense of the word; he can only subvert what the Creator has already made. On the other hand...The Creator does not destroy and therefore can not &quot;destroy&quot; the DO.<br /><br />The DO can not create a prison to capture the Creator, just as it would be against the Creator's nature to &quot;destroy&quot; the DO...but he can &quot;Create&quot; a Dragon to try to do just such a thing...and the DO can then try to subvert or &quot;Destroy&quot; the Dragon. Each has their own area of expertise where they are better than the other...it is this dichotomy which leads to the &quot;Equal&quot; connotation. They are &quot;Equally Strong&quot; but their expertise are in separate fields.<br /><br />Also I would contend that the act of &quot;creation&quot; is more time consuming than the act of &quot;Destruction&quot;...it can take years to build a building that is destroyed in one minute by a tornado or a hurricane. It is because of this that we see the DO taking more of a direct hand in the world than the Creator. .The creator is busy &quot;creating&quot; i.e. spinning the wheel of time, and the DO is using his powers in the more narrow field of destroying and or subverting certain obstacles to his release. <br /><br />Because one is equally adept at destruction as the other is at creation their struggle will continue for eternity. The Creator will continue to create the things needed to destroy and or control the DO and the DO will continue to try to find a way to thwart/subvert/destroy these creations. As quickly as he contends with one thing the creator will have thrown something else against him.<br /><br />This is just my humble opinion and please be nice to a newbie at wotmania. I know this doesn't go directly towards the original opinion (which I found refreshing if not necessarily true) but more towards the question of equal not equal, and I apologize for that. Also, if this has been addressed elsewhere I apologize for that also....I am still trying to make it through the voluminous past theories and BB posts.<br /><br />Belgaria <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /><br />A Lurker Newbie&#8217;s First post of any kind so please be nice!<br /><br />P.S. Men have both the power to create and destroy&#8230;therefore they are neither &#8220;good&#8221; nor &#8220;evil&#8221; in the general sense, and it is why even men of &#8220;good&#8221; qualities can be subverted to following the DO.<br /><br />P.S.S. I forgot to mention...this theory would then show that in effect the DO and the Creator rely on each other for their own existence to an extent. With nothing to destroy the DO would lose purpose and the Creator would eventually run out of things to create if nothing was ever destroyed. (this is based on the expectation that there is only a finite amount of space to be filled) ....Just something that occured to me just now and I thought I'd throw it out there <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-07-09 18:42:54
subject: <b>Whoa...</b>
body:
Lots if arguing here, this is the most posts I've seen so far for one theory.  Anyway, just thought I would throw in my own little bit; to begin, Ciel, you asked for a definition of immortal; it seems to me that in WoT immortal means that you do not die naturaly, of old age but you can be killed.  The Forsaken are immortal and Rand is dropping them like flies.  It seems perfectly plausible to me, though that doesn't mean I neccesarily believe it, that even the powerful immortal DO could be killed if enough power were brought to bear on him.  <br /><br />Now as for Fain taking his place, huh?  Where did that come from, no matter how evil and powerful he is, he is against the dark one, he hates the dark one. By the way, where does it say he is immortal, I don't remember that, though I have been known to miss things.  Anyway, has know one else thought about rebirth?  The Dragon keeps being reborn to fight the DO, why can't the DO be reborn to fight the dragon.  First Age, DO reborn, imprisoned quickly by Creator, Second Age, Bore drilled, Dragon seals, Third Age, DO breaks free of seal, Dragon kills, four ages of recovery and peace, cycle restarts.<br /><br />Anyway, I just thought of this and thought i might as well give you all something new to chew on.  Hopefully now you will back off from the childish battle of egoes this is becoming.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Four things cannot be hidden- love, smoke, a pillar of fire, and a man striding across the open bled.&quot;<br />                               -<i>Fremen Saying</i><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-16 16:50:40
subject: <b>Fain CAN'T become the Dark One</b>
body:
I just thought I'd add my bit to this. I was reading the guide and in it, it says : <br /><br />&quot;The only know forces outside the Wheel and The Pattern are the Creator, who shaped the Wheel, the One Power that drives it - as well as the plan for The Great Pattern - And The Dark One, who was imprisoned outside the Pattern by the Creator at the moment of creation. No one inside or of the Pattern can destory the Wheel or change the destiny of the Great Pattern&quot;<br /><br />Later on it describes the Dark One as &quot;being creature or force beyond creation&quot; <br /><br />Now, I've yet to see anything that says Fain or Mordeth are outside the Pattern, or that they are beyond creation in anyway, though I do agree that Fain will have a large role by the end.<br /><br />As for the D.O. being unable to beat the Dragon even after fighting him for so long, remember, that there are three Ta'veren fighting him, altering the Pattern as they go, thereby changing the fight, though if he can't beat them anyway after so many goes, he MUST be a bit on the simple side. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">It is one of the things Lini is for, taking the blame. She usualy deserves it even if I don't know how.<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-11 20:33:01
subject: <b>Angels</b>
body:
Good theroy and more than likely someone has already said this but you are right!  The DO is not the equal to the Creator.  RJ uses so many biblical images and I hope that everyone can see the Satan vs Micheal allagory.  Lucifer (Satan) was an Serphum and if you read Milton you will find he got his butt whipped by another angel, Micheal. Shaitain=Satan=Lucifer, Rand=Micheal.  Both are subordiante to God, both are very powerful.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Chronically late reader of posts and theories <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br />King of the Rejected Theory <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Founder of the WOT Old Bastard League (WOBL)<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/thom.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-11 20:52:38
subject: <b>Angels, More</b>
body:
To continue:  Satan was cast down in to the Abyss by the heavenly host of angels (100 compainions).  He could touch the Earth (Eve and the Serpent) and even go back and talk to God (Job).  But no where is he considered an equal, a threat yes but never an equal.  Not even to Christ, who did not by the way lead the Host against the Rebel Angels, but more to Micheal.  Sure there is a Balance. It is just below the level of the Creator who is beyond balance.<br /><br />Ps please don't think I'm a huge church goer.  Just a bad Catholic with a love of Mythology.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Chronically late reader of posts and theories <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br />King of the Rejected Theory <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Founder of the WOT Old Bastard League (WOBL)<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/thom.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-13 22:28:38
subject: <b>Has anyone focused on the Creator</b>
body:
OK, has anyone truly focused on the Creator, because he is as essential to this arugment as the DO. We have examined the possiblity of mulitple Dark Ones. WHAT ABOUT MULTIPLE CREATORS!!! Who says there is just one Creator. For each portal stone world, there might be (and im not endorsing any paticular theory) an individual Dark One. So if (and once again, im not endorsing one paticular theory) the Dark One and the Creator are two sides of the same coin, wouldn't there be a creator to match the DO in each world. And so therefore, wouldn't that put a whole new spin on all these comments and theories. I could come up with all these spinoff theories, but its late and im waaaay to lazy. Ill probably post these at a later time as an actual theory, and im sure you'll all flock to it, my minions. Thanks for your valuable (but that is debateable) time.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">If brute force isn't working, you're not using enough.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-12-12 15:44:05
subject: <b>old i know</b>
body:
ok i know this is old and was long thought done i am sure but anyhow.<br /><br />&quot;. If the Creator is actively using his power to hold the DO in and is doing it successfully then how can he not hold humans (Like Meirin and Beidomon) out? Doesn't make sense.&quot;<br /><br />i am not saying the creator is the prison or not however look to our world and a coke can, it is possible for someone to, while standing perfectly balanced, put their full weight on the can without crushing the can. let us say the creator is like the can and the dark one is the weight on the can, these can can hold sucha weight because forces are balanced. now if an &quot;external&quot; force were to touch the can the walls of said can collapse and the weight crushes the can. now we know the creator made the people who drilled the bore however as is obvious he gave them freedom of choice as well, they are then suddenly free radicals that could drasticly effect things minor and major. this also means they can be the &quot;outside&quot; force that taps the side of the can causing for a moment an imbalance between the can and the weight on it. if you followed along somehow then you can see that something similar could take place if the creator is the DO's prison and they are equal in power.<br /><br />again i am not saying the creator is the prison, i personally see the creator as someplace else sitting back and watching


created: 2003-03-01 17:37:39
subject: <b>Balance</b>
body:
If these battles have been fought without end, is it possible that the outcome is not what is important, but that the battle is important for itself?  If a person grew up never knowing evil, how would they know good when they saw it?  If a person was never sick, how could they appreciate health?  In other words, there cannot be evil without good and vice versa.  The Dragon has been reborn an infinity of times, and the D.O. exists constantly.  If they have always been fighting, why has neither of them won?  We all assume that when the D.O. is sealed away, he is beaten, but maybe it is like what Damer Flinn did for Rand after he got the wound from Fain, &quot;I sort of sealed them away from him for a while . . .&quot;  Sound familiar?  The Creator has created the Dragon and the D.O. exactly equal so that they can balance one another. There's that pesky balance thing again. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Brianne Aes Sedai, First Weaver of the Yellow Ajah<br />Bonded to Daniel Gaidin<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />High Priestess of academic theories<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" />Amyrlin Seat of the Wheel of Time Club in Oklahoma City<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /> <br />'Helluo librorum'<br />'Bene legere saecla vincere.' <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-05-25 21:18:24
subject: <b>The Dark One isn't just some powerful dude...</b>
body:
For Tolkien fans, I would liken Shai'tan to Morgoth.  I think he is a creation of the Creator, like some child gone horribly horribly wrong.<br /><br />Consider this:<br /><br />* Shai'tan has the ability to provide some people with an alternative to the One Power, the True Power.  <br /><br />* Everything I've read said that the Creator Himself sealed Shai'tan in a prison outside of the world.  How many other times have we read about the Creator operating in such a direct manner?<br /><br />Shai'tan is definitely set up to be Morgoth-esque, and as such he is set up against the Creator.  It's all there:  he wants to remake Creation in his own image.  He takes pleasure in turning the children of the Creator against each other.  He sets up his own &quot;Avatars&quot; i.e. Moridin against the Creator's &quot;Avatar,&quot; the Dragon.<br /><br />The Dragon is definitely set up to be a Jesus-like character.  Ishamael spoke about how in past turns of the Wheel the Dragon had been lured by to the Shadow - like Jesus succombing to the temptations of Satan.  This is another example of how Shai'tan is set up to be the opposite of the Creator.<br /><br />Let me make it clear:  I don't think Shai'tan is as powerful as the Creator.  That would be ridiculous.  This world is obviously established as a monotheistic one.  However I do think that Shai'tan is no more a &quot;creature&quot; than Satan is.  He's definitely more than that.<br /><br />Just remember that the WOT series definitely has Tolkien and Christian themes; as such everything that happens in Creation happens according to the plan of the Creator - even the Dark One.<br /><br />After all, what would good be without evil?  What would love be without loss?<br /><br />Odrion


created: 2005-02-23 21:09:42
subject: <b>True, true...</b>
body:
Yup, Shai'tan seems more than a little dull. ('Nuuu!' cries the voice of Bad, Potential Forskaen Me. 'Yes!' crows Lightfriend, Perrin's Soldier Me) Personally, it sickens me the way good always wins. Sorry, that was Potential Forsaken Me! But really, it's so cliche now. For once, can't Rand be dragged screaming into the Pit of Doom? Or, better yet, for once can't Rand convert to the Shadow and depose and replace Ishy as most powerful Forsaken? ('Gaa!' Lightfriend Me knocks out Forsaken Me) My favorite thing about the Forsaken is the names. Rand could be called Ishamael, Mat could be Sammael, Perrin could either be Demandred or Asmodean! But aaanyway, yeah, Shai'tan is making too many mistakes. Didn't count on balefire, eh, Shai'ty? &quot;I DON'T LIKE YOU, LITTLE HUMAN,&quot; rumbles Shai'tan. &quot;THE CREATOR SCORNS ME AT DINNER PARTIES OF THE THESISES, RAND WANTS TO BALEFIRE ME TO NO END, MY ONLY SUBJECTS THINK I'M PSYCHOTIC, AND MY CREATURES ARE AFRAID OF ME. THE PEOPLE OF THE WESTLANDS AND THE AIEL WASTE MAKE NASTY NAMES FOR ME, SHARA SILENTLY IGNORES ME, SEANCHAN WOULD LIKE TO TAKE MY HEAD (WHICH I DON'T PHYSICALLY HAVE) AND HANG IT FROM A GATE, AND... *SNIFF*&quot; ('Aww, so sad!' says Forsaken Me. 'Ahaha- gaack!' chokes Lightfriend Me as Forsaken Me strangles him) We'll get back to you folks. I'm off to the mental hospital.


created: 2002-02-25 16:20:49
subject: <b>perhaps...</b>
body:
...there are different ways of doing the weaves. Remeber Aviendha had a problem with it in Ebou Dar but not in Carhein. There might be a trick to gateways that takes a certain...mindset...to get right. Adeleas and Vandene might be so set in their ways they can't do it.<br /><br />Just a thought.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Ciel, the Baerlon Maid<br />doesn't need any titles or smileys</font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-25 20:01:22
subject: <b>I don't</b>
body:
have a quote, but I'm pretty certain Suian said that she was able to lift a weight much greater than Bryne before...so perhaps Vandene and Adeleas can just lift a man.<br /><br />Actuall I'd like that quote too as I don't remember it, depending on what ti says perhaps they just knocked fim through a window with a club of air.


created: 2002-02-25 20:24:13
subject: <b>Suian's lifting capacity</b>
body:
I actually just reread this about two hours ago, and Suian was shocked because after being Healed by Nynaeve she couldn't lift Bryne, but before being stilled could lift thrice (yes, it's a real word!) her own weight.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">It is not over, it is just the end.<br />Every end is a new beginning.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-25 21:01:59
subject: <b>About Avi. having issues with the Traveling</b>
body:
We know what her problem is.  She is trying to do basically the same thing, but weaving it two completely different ways.  We already know that this is a problem...that once a channeler learns to do something one way, it's next to impossible to teach her to do it another way.  An example is throwing fireballs.  The Aes Sedai literally throw their hand out...and whooosh.  Meanwhile the Wise Ones later make fun of them with all their arm flailing and what not.  <br /><br />Anyway...Aviendha Travels way before any of the other girls...and is infact the first of the girls to do so.  She was running from Rand when he caught her bathing wetlander style (book5, far snows).  She didn't remember how she did it.  Later, she had problems Traveling because she is weaving it as Elayne taught her how...which is obviously not the same way that she did it the first time....due to the fact that she has more than enough strength in the power to do it, but it requires her utmost concentration as well as everything she's got.  Both of these are examples of a woman trying to channel the same action in a different way than what she previously knows.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Near-Brother to Roonas <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /><br />Admin of the Art Gallery<br />Admin of all that is WoT</font><p><a href="http://www.startrek.com" target="_blank">Boldly Go</a></p><p></p>


created: 2002-02-25 21:36:53
subject: <b>I'm not even sure why they posted this theory</b>
body:
The quote clearly stated that Siuan could lift THREE times her own weight.  You didn't even bother to put this in your theory.  <br />       Maybe Vandene or Adeleas could only lift the weight of one man.  This would make Siuan 3 times stronger than Vandealeas.  That is a huge margin of difference between the old Siuan and Vandealeas.<br /> <br />            I guess I am just have a bone to pick, because both Haman and myself have both had well-quoted theories about the killer of Adealeas and Ispan deleted.  This theory however does not even bother to provide the right quote and it gets posted.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ADA- AlannaDawn Anonymous-- helping wotmaniacs recovering from their AlanndaDawn Addictions in a dynamic new 12-step program.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-25 21:47:52
subject: <b>the passages . . .</b>
body:
Here are the passages I am talking about.  Page numbers refer to the hardcover edition of the book.<br /><br />Siuan's prior strength (LOC, p. 426):<br />  &quot;. . .  His (Gareth's) boots never stirred from the floor.  It was impossible.  True, the simple act of picking something up was one of the hardest in channeling, but she had been able to lift nearly three times her own weight.&quot;<br /><br />Leaving for Ebou Dar (LOC, p. 560):<br />  &quot; 'I fear you are speaking to the wrong one of us,' Vandene said.  He (Mat) looked at the other white-haired woman, who shook her head as Vandene said, 'Nor Adeleas, I fear.  It appears we are not strong enough for some of the new things.' &quot;<br /><br />Incident in Ebou Dar (LOC, p. 644):<br />  &quot;As far as Elayne could see, no one in the Rahad would speak two willing words to Aes Sedai.  People melted away as soon as they realized what they were; she had seen two women try to stab Adeleas, no doubt to rob the fool walking the Rahad in a silk dress, and by the time the Brown sister lifted the pair on flows of Air and stuff them through a window two floors up, there was not another person in sight.&quot;<br /><br />And another addition I'd like to make to my observations include the scene where Egwene throws the Sea Folk into the water, (LOC, p. 449):<br />  &quot;. . .  she (Egwene) embraced saidar and channeled four flows before the Windfinder could react. . .    . . . One flow was Spirit, a shield she shoved onto the Windfinder to keep her from interfering.  If she knew how.  Each of the other three was Air, woven almost delicately around each woman, binding her arms to her sides.  Lifting them was not precisely difficult, but not easy either. . .    . . . With an effort she hoisted them higher, some ten or twelve paces above the surface; no matter how hard she strained, that seemed to be the limit.&quot;  Granted, Egwene is shielding the Windfinder, as well as lifting three people, but even with her sizable strength advantage, she is not able to lift them very high.<br /><br />So it seems that Vandene &amp; Adeleas weren't linked in the Rahad, and the Brown sister (Adeleas) was able to lift 2 men as high as Egwene.<br /><br />Again, I'm not sure what all of this means, but considering all four of these passages occur in the same book, within a span of around 220 pages, it seems too much evidence to ignore.  Robert Jordan's trying to tell us something.<br /><br />Of course, a large X factor in all of this are the unknown &quot;limits&quot; to the physics of channeling (how big you can make a platform while skimming, how high you can make a bridge from air, how high you can lift someone, etc.)<br /><br />Food for thought.


created: 2002-02-26 03:04:40
subject: <b>just an idea</b>
body:
i dont nessesarly know if i beleive this, but its possible vandene just wasnt strong enough in certain aspects of the power. we know that to lift someone requires air. im not sure what is needed to make a gateway but its plausable that vandene was very strong in air but weak in the elements needed for a gateway.


created: 2002-02-26 06:12:37
subject: <b>i seem to remember</b>
body:
someone commenting that lifting objects with the power is one of those things that has a different limit for every channeler (like bridges, platforms, etc) and isn't necessarily limited by strength in the power.  i'm too tired to look it up now (this could just be a false memory brought on by sleep deprivation), but if anyone's interested i'll try to find it later.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>L&#237; blauf B&#250;j is L&#250;vhauf&#237;, lhei kaimei lheic Brauc.</i><br /><i>(On a wild ride to oblivion, I lost my mind.)</i></font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-26 08:03:05
subject: <b>Trick?</b>
body:
Could this not simply be one of the 'Tricks' they learned as novices / yuung girls and can do it automatically without thinking of the limitations? (Avienda's gateway, Moiraines evesdropping stone, Liandrins compulsion)<br /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" />  Nik The Greek Is Our Hero!!   <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />SAFC 0  NUFC 1  24/2/02 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Toon Army:- The Creators choice<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/thom.gif" border="0" /> = Sir Bobby Robson IS the Creator<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/thom.gif" border="0" /> = <br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-26 10:41:05
subject: <b>good ideas . . .</b>
body:
Heartshade - that's an interesting idea.  But I can't help thinking that if anyone was going to be limited by preset conceptions of what was possible, it would be Vandene &amp; Adeleas, not Egwene.  But I suppose if it is a 'trick' like Geordie mentioned, it would make sense.  But I'm not sure lifting someone really high counts as a lost Talent.  Unless it has something to do with flying . . . .<br /><br />Eddard - Also a good idea.  Anyone remember what flows are used to create a gateway?  Spirit &amp; Fire?  But again, it's tough to imagine Adeleas having a comparable amount of strength in Air as Egwene.  It'd be interesting to see how high Elayne could lift someone.  After her Windfinder training experience in The Shadow Rising, her strength in Air should be pretty substantial.<br /><br />And Matrimony, I stated right from the beginning that this wasn't a full-blown theory.  Just an observation.  I think it's an interesting one, and one that hasn't been beaten to death yet.  If you don't agree with it, fine.  But I'm not sure what there is to disagree with.  I'm stating some situations that represent an inconsistency in what we know of Vandene &amp; Adeleas.  What it means, I don't know yet.


created: 2002-02-26 13:12:49
subject: <b>A &quot;pace&quot;...</b>
body:
...is about 5 feet. So Egwene lifted 3 people 50-60 feet in the air while shielding one of them. Adeleas lifted 2 people 10-15 feet. Big difference.<br /><br />Ciel, the Baerlon Maid<br />doesn't need any titles or smileys<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Ciel, the Baerlon Maid<br />doesn't need any titles or smileys</font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-26 15:41:45
subject: <b>Big Damn Pace</b>
body:
I would think a pace is more like 2 1/2 to 3 feet, about like a grown man's pace. Especially in a culture like Westlands, bodily measurements are really popular as easy ways of describing distances to others.


created: 2002-02-26 16:36:30
subject: <b>paces, longbows, &amp; stories</b>
body:
I had assumed a pace to be about a yard.  For instance, a Two Rivers Longbow has a range of 300 paces, right?  If a pace equaled 5 feet, we're looking at a range of 1,500 feet . . . .  We know they're big bows, but that's over a quarter mile.   If a pace were 2.5 to 3 feet, we've got a 750-900 foot range, which about matches the range of a Medieval (sp?) English longbow.<br /><br />There's some decent reading on this here . . .  http://www.stortford-archers.org.uk/medieval.htm  Wade through the equations, and you eventually find out that the maximum range for the English Longbow was probably around 240 meters.<br /><br />And I figured that &quot;a window two floors up&quot; meant the 3rd floor - so at least 30 feet in the air or so.  After all, &quot;a window one floor up&quot; wouldn't be the ground floor, would it?<br /><br />I still hold to my opinion that there's something odd going on.


created: 2002-02-26 18:26:27
subject: <b>paces</b>
body:
One pace is equivalent to <i>two</i> steps, not one step.  Two steps (for an adult) will be closer to 5 feet than 3 feet, I think.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="white">|</font>&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;<img src="images/personalsmilies/747.gif" /><br />Only so evil.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-27 10:57:43
subject: <b>Found this link:</b>
body:
http://personal.nbnet.nb.ca/ppostuma/wot_23.htm<br /><br />Backs up my opinions regarding measurement.


created: 2002-02-27 11:15:09
subject:
<b>length, units of (as in the appendi<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /></b>

body:
3 hands= one foot; 3 feet= one pace; 2 paces= one span<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />no &quot;steps&quot; there... anyway, this supports the theory that one pace about equals a yard/meter.


created: 2002-02-27 18:24:12
subject: <b>A &quot;pace&quot;... for the record -</b>
body:
pace1   Pronunciation Key  (ps)<br />n. <br />1. A step made in walking; a stride. <br />2. A unit of length equal to 30 inches (0.76 meter). <br />3. The distance spanned by a step or stride, especially:<br />   a. The modern version of the Roman pace, measuring five English feet. Also called geometric pace. <br />   b. Thirty inches at quick marching time or 36 at double time. <br />   c. Five Roman feet or 58.1 English inches, measured from the point at which the heel of one foot is raised to the point at which it is set down again after an intervening step by the other foot. <br />4. <br />   a. The rate of speed at which a person, animal, or group walks or runs. <br />   b. The rate of speed at which an activity or movement proceeds. <br />5. A manner of walking or running: a jaunty pace. <br />6. A gait of a horse in which both feet on one side are lifted and put down together. <br /><br />--------------------------------------------------------------------------------<br />[Middle English, from Old French pas, from Latin passus, from past participle of pandere, to stretch, spread out. See pet- in Indo-European Roots.]<br /><br />http://www.dictionary.com/search?q=pace<br /><br />There. Everyone can be right.<br /><br />Ciel, the Baerlon Maid<br />doesn't need any titles or smileys<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Ciel, the Baerlon Maid<br />doesn't need any titles or smileys</font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-27 18:29:56
subject: <b>Oh, one more thing.</b>
body:
No one has 3rd floor windows 30 feet in the air. That would mean 9 1/2 foot ceilings or close. Closer to 6 1/2 or 7 foot cielings in Rahad and since windows are closer to middle/bottom than top of floor I would say 20 feet is a VERY generous estimate.<br /><br />Have you ever been in a 3rd world country apartment complex? I have and I would think they are about the same in dimensions if not construct.<br /><br />Ciel, the Baerlon Maid<br />doesn't need any titles or smileys<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Ciel, the Baerlon Maid<br />doesn't need any titles or smileys</font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-27 18:53:54
subject: <b>1,500 feet...</b>
body:
...is a long way but remember you have a mass of Trollocs running towards them and any arrow that gets to them will hit something. Perrin timed it so the arrows hit just as the Trollocs ran into range. The Two Rivers men only got off 3 shots (I think) before the Trollocs reached the barrier. So I think the distance was closer to 230 paces or so when the first arrows reached them. Kinda close if 1 pace = 3 feet and kinda far if 1 pace = 5 feet. <br /><br />The Appendix says:<br /><br />3 hands= one foot; 3 feet= one pace; 2 paces= one span<br /><br />Well if we can't take &quot;pace&quot; at face value then we can't take &quot;foot&quot; either. A hand is probably the length or the width of the hand. So either 4&quot;(wide) or 7&quot; (long). That means a foot is 12&quot; or 21&quot; and a pace is 36&quot; or 54&quot;. The appendix doesn't help then because we don't know how long a &quot;hand&quot; is. There is no solution in sight...<br /><br />Ciel, the Baerlon Maid<br />doesn't need any titles or smileys<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Ciel, the Baerlon Maid<br />doesn't need any titles or smileys</font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-27 18:56:10
subject: <b>oops 63&quot;, not 54&quot;</b>
body:
My bad.<br /><br />Ciel, the Baerlon Maid<br />doesn't need any titles or smileys<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Ciel, the Baerlon Maid<br />doesn't need any titles or smileys</font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-28 09:50:09
subject: <b>john</b>
body:
in the books it says 1 foot equals 10 inches so a pace is 30 inches i dont know why there is so much arguing about this fact<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">f@@k it im ganging tae the boozer<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-28 14:47:28
subject: <b>Units of length</b>
body:
In the Guide or possibly the RPG, it says a foot is a real-world foot, so an inch is a little bigger than ours, and a pace is a yard.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-01 01:47:07
subject: <b>Or..</b>
body:
Remember, channelers can be stronger in one area, and weak in another. Aviendha can't make a gateway that large at all, and she is supposed to be about as strong as Elayne. See?


created: 2002-03-04 01:58:39
subject: <b>Adeleas might just be stong in air</b>
body:
Couldn't it just be possible that Adeleas is strong in Air (to the near possible exclusion of the other 4 powers)?  Besides, 10 or 12 paces (in reference to Eg's feat) measures about 30-36ft!  Adeleas only had to lift those two 12-16 ft to stuff them into the 2nd floor window.<br /><br />And if you don't agree with my reasoning/math, just consider the fact that Eg. is extraordinarily strong in earth and fire (probably spirit too), which means her abilities in air and water might be a little lacking.  Remember, just because women &quot;tend&quot; to be strong in certain powers doesn't mean that they always are.<br />


created: 2002-03-04 11:17:40
subject: <b>read the previous remarks . . . . .</b>
body:
Aviendha's gateway issues have nothing to do with her strength, and it was a 3rd floor window - probably 20-25 feet up (good point re: third world ceiling height, Ciel).<br /><br />We know Egwene's got strength in Earth, but I don't recall anything about her being especially good in Fire.  Nor do I recall any mention of her being handicapped in Air because of her ability in Earth.<br /><br />What we know about Adeleas' strength?  I'm not sure we've seen her do a whole lot of channeling, but I always got the impression she wasn't very strong.  Anyone know of other situations where she does some channeling?


created: 2002-03-04 20:05:43
subject: <b>true... 20-25ft, but that is still 2/3-3/4 what EG did with 3 people</b>
body:
-EG comments to herself in CoS about her &quot;extraordinary&quot; strength with both fire and earth (I assume she is strong with spirit since it is the power most associated with dreaming)<br /><br />-In The World of RJ's WoT, it is claimed that most channelers are only good with 1 or 2 of the powers to the detriment of the others with &quot;for example, someone strong in wind may be all but unable to weave fire... some few rare individuals have been found to be good in as many as 3, or in very rare cases 4... but since the AoL no one has had great strength in all 5, and even then they were very rare&quot;( p.18 )<br /><br />-This passage implies that it is possible that EG might be good in (at the most) 4 of the powers, since she stands at least a step below Nynaeve (who, while equaling Mog, probably stands a step below most of the other forsaken in strength)... Who knows? Air might be her weakest...  At the same time I doubt Adeleas (considering her general standing) is strong in more than 2, maybe only 1 of the powers, which in this case would most likely be Air.<br />


created: 2002-05-04 06:12:23
subject: <b>Back to the V&amp;A mystery issue</b>
body:
I dont recall the book etc that had the dragkhar attack in it, although I do remember after reading it that first time that it seemed to come from no-where for no reason.  My immediate suspicion was that one of either A&amp;V must have taken exeption to Moiraine/Moiraines agenda and summoned the draghkar to deal with her.  Therefore there is a black connexion there.  <br />I seem to recall Vandene was quite upset with the two novices Zarya &amp; ? putting together their black sister theory, insisting they be put to more novice lessons to occupy their time - yet why wouldnt she be keen to explore any suspicion that would help her discover her sisters assailant?  It seems she wants them shut up &amp; not digging - did they touch a nerve with V?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="00aa00"><b>Member of Wotmania Writers Guild</b></font><br /><br /><font color="00aa00"><b>S</b></font><font color="00cc00"><b>o</b></font><font color="00aa00"><b>m</b></font><font color="00cc00"><b>e</b></font><font color="00aa00"><b>s</b></font><font color="00cc00"><b>h</b></font><font color="00aa00"><b>t</b></font><font color="00cc00"><b>a</b></font><font color="00aa00"><b>l</b></font><font color="00cc00"><b>i</b></font><font color="00aa00"><b>n</b></font><font color="00cc00"><b>a</b></font><br /><font color="00aa00"><b>(Help me sink this world into the shadow - of beautiful trees)</b></font><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><font color="00aa00"><b><i>Blessed Be</i></b></font><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-03 22:28:04
subject: <b>Measurement</b>
body:
Here's a good website that demonstrates measurements in the WOT http://members.rogers.com/paupos/wot/wot_measures.htm


created: 2002-02-26 15:03:56
subject: <b>One small point.</b>
body:
I haven't got time or energy to go into a big argument, but there is one small thing: we know from tDR that Warders can't sense Grey Men, when one tries to kill them in an Illian inn.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">You must chop down the tallest tree in the forest with... a herring!<br /><br /><br /><font face="courier new">l(a</font><br /><br /><font face="courier new">le</font><br /><font face="courier new">af</font><br /><font face="courier new">fa</font><br /><font face="courier new">ll</font><br /><br /><font face="courier new">s)</font><br /><font face="courier new">one</font><br /><font face="courier new">l</font><br /><br /><font face="courier new">iness</font><br /><br />F<font color="#111111">a</font><font color="#222222">d</font><font color="#333333">i</font><font color="#444444">n</font><font color="#555555">g</font><font color="#666666">o</font><font color="#777777">u</font><font color="#888888">t</font><font color="#999999">a</font><font color="#AAAAAA">n</font><font color="#BBBBBB">d</font><font color="#CCCCCC">n</font><font color="#DDDDDD">o</font><font color="#EEEEEE">w</font><font color="#FFFFFF">gone</font></font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-26 15:08:00
subject: <b>Rand is different type of Warder because he can channel</b>
body:
Rand did smell the evil of the gray man- the quote is right there.<br />         Rand might have more powers than the typical warder because of his ability to channel- this might make the bond slightly different.<br />           Rand did not have the ability to smell evil before, so I am assuming that the bond gave him this ability.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ADA- AlannaDawn Anonymous-- helping wotmaniacs recovering from their AlanndaDawn Addictions in a dynamic new 12-step program.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-26 15:19:59
subject: <b>Another nail in the coffin.....</b>
body:
Nesune was sent to the library to look for the seals by the head of the Aes sedai delegation.<br />(who interestingly is Galina Sedai, head of the BA)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/frown.gif" border="0" />I`ve got Dyslexia<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/frown.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" />Surely the reason for my spelling errers<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-26 16:25:50
subject: <b>Sammael's motive?</b>
body:
The problem I still have with Sammael ordering the murder of Fel is always the same : why would Sammael care about Fel if he intended to have Rand killed long before TG anyway?  Sammael is much more likely interested in Rand's doings with the Saldaeans and Mat than with his &quot;school&quot;.<br /><br />It's possible, even very likely, that the Cairhien gholam is the same one that shows up later in Ebou Dar and &quot;belongs&quot; to Sammy, but I think it's another Chosen from the &quot;Chaos&quot; bunch who asked Sammael to send something fast to kill Master Fel - quite possibly Graendal or Mesaana who are much more believable Chosen to keep a watch on Rand's &quot;school&quot;. Mesaana could have asked the BA to keep an eye on the school or Graendal is likely to have spies in the Palace. Not only she would get rid of Fel's dangerous knowledge, but by attacking someone Rand likes with shadowspawn and watch what happens, she might learn from his reaction the truth about the &quot;truce&quot; between him and Sammael and if she's lucky enough she might get from her spies the confirmation of her suspicions that Sammael has found a gholam.  <br /><br />It's a bit unlikely that Sammael has a spy among the Maiden close to Rand, especially in Cairhien. All his Cairhien/Caemlyn news about Lanfear, Rahvin and Asmodean he got second hand from Graendal, who incidentally pointed out to Sammael his weakness of not paying enough attention to the people outside Illian (implying that she does follow her own advice and have &quot;pets&quot; scattered around the world - among the servants I guess).<br /><br />


created: 2002-02-26 18:07:23
subject: <b>dam</b>
body:
anyone ever get the feeling their just one of the farm animals listening to the pigs debate in ANIMAL FARM?


created: 2002-02-26 20:27:36
subject: <b>Burr has a point</b>
body:
They could just be in love<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><i><b>DARTH DRAGON</b></i> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><b><i>&quot;Truth begins as heresy.&quot;  </i></b><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-27 02:12:25
subject: <b>Burr does indeed have a point</b>
body:
It makes far more sense for them to be attracted to each other than to be spies. Rand thinks that, and we have no reason to disbelieve it. Moreover, Dedric's interest in the printing press is typically Aiel - they love books and are great readers, so he would be naturally interested. Jalani would, but she is a Maiden and so more intent on guarding the &lt;i&gt;Car'a'carn/i&gt;. Jalani and Dedric are merely in love, not DFs. <br />As for Nesune Bihara, we have a good PoV from her which is not one of a Black Ajah. She might be, but I find it extremely unlikely.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Ruriha Sedai <img src="images/personalsmilies/2150.gif" /><br />Aes Sedai of the Green Ajah<br />Officially On Holiday <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />Middle-Earth Kiwi <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" /><br />She Who Has Returned <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-27 06:56:58
subject: <b>Very nice theory.</b>
body:
I agree that Sammael sent the <i>gholam</i> after Fel, (that's not actually proved, but unless there's 2 <i>gholams</i> still around, from Sammy's POV it's very likely that Sammael sent it after Fel) but I can't say for sure that Julani and others were involved. You present a very convincing case , that it happened, but Taimandred believers did the same from the LOC until WsH debunked that theory. I'm a sceptic on any theory, until I see a POV to prove that this or that piece of evidence proves that it actually has happened as the evidence may suggest.<br /><br />Simon<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Founding member of the ASI</b><br /><br /><b>TP ADMIN</b><br /><br /><b>Simon</b><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-27 08:53:31
subject: <b>the spies</b>
body:
Rand told Idrien Tarsin &quot;How many spies do you have in the sun Palace&quot; because she knew he would come when Rand havn't annonunced his arrive. It was only a wry comment about the cairhienin attitude on spying.<br /><br />


created: 2002-02-27 09:38:58
subject: <b>Well</b>
body:
I can see where you're coming from with Julani, I'm not sure if she's a DF or not (I don't think we'll ever find out for certain either), but I think you go too far to accuse the other Aiel you mentioned.


created: 2002-02-27 10:18:27
subject: <b>I'm not saying whether I believe it or not</b>
body:
but I can at least explain it.<br /><br />Sammael has people spying on Rand.<br /><br />Julani is one of his spies.<br /><br />Julani overhears Rand and Fel's conversation.<br /><br />She tells Sammael what she heard them say and while Sammael doesn't entirely understand it, he knows that Fel is close to figuring out how to improsen the DO once again, so has him killed before Rand can get him to speak sense.<br /><br />That's what the theory author is proposing anyway.


created: 2002-02-27 13:02:56
subject: <b>This is the reason Sammael Cares about Fel</b>
body:
Sammael doesn't care about music or philosphy, but he is not an idiot.  <br />        Sammael is interested in war- and thus he would be highly interested in Rand's school, because Rand's school will logically produce the technology of war.  We know Sammael is a big-time technology junkie.  Who else has spent so much time looking for ter'angreal stashes?  <br />       It follows that Sammael would try to get a few spies around the school.  And as Sammael has a prized interest in using Aiel, it makes sense that they are Aiel.<br />One of these spies, which I am assuming is Jalani, overheard a juicy bit of info with Rand and Fel.  The reason I think Jalani- is because Jalani and Dedric were the only people in all of LoC that were ever anywhere near Fel and Rand when they talked.  The only exception is Min.<br />         The info was philosophical, it pertained to philosospical questions, but it was also highly practical.  Fel was giving Rand advice about winning a war- and to Sammael this is what really matters.  When Fel began discusses the dark one's seals, to Sammael he is not just a harmless philosopher, he is someone that poses a dangerous threat to Sammael's chances of defeating Rand and becomming Nae'blis.  Thus, I think Sammael very well could have been interested in Fel.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ADA- AlannaDawn Anonymous-- helping wotmaniacs recovering from their AlanndaDawn Addictions in a dynamic new 12-step program.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-27 13:36:45
subject: <b>A theory poster's response</b>
body:
I think the couple obviously has great affection for each other, and that is the most logical reason for them ignoring their duties.  But why is Jordan drawing so much attention to it?  As far as I recall, Jordan has never drawn so much attention to Aiel in love- not in this same way.  We have seen various glimmers of Aiel in love such as in Gaul, but they never seemed to be off their mark because of their affections.  And my thought was that  it seems like it would be very unusual for an Aiel to slip up in their attentions when they were around the Ca'ar'carn (sorry about spelling).  To the maidens, they regard protection of Rand, as their greatest honor, and their honor is greater than their life, or their love.  <br /> <br />         This is why I including these comments in my post. My next comment is about Rand's comment about the spies to Idrien.  It is, of course, most logical to think that the reason Rand said something about the spies is because Idrien was completely ready for Rand when he arrived- and she must of had some spy in the palace to alert her.  However, Jordan often uses double meanings, and may have also been referring to something else.<br /> <br />       I should have explained these points better in my theory, but I didn't want it to become too long.<br /><br />    Now when you take these points and you add them to the progression of Jalani's plotline, I think it makes a notable theory.  I am not sure if it is correct or not, but on my reread it really stood out to me- and since most of the best theories have already been written, we are left to writing about more subtle and more philosophical titles.  I just Jordan comes out with his book soon, so that we get some fresh stuff!<br /><br />     I have always wondered about Fel, and about how one of the Forsaken knew about Fel's discussion with Rand about the seals.  If you look through LoC, their are only 3 people that are anywhere near Rand and Fel:  Min, Jalani, and Dedric.<br /><br />     So, in this theory I considered Jalani and Dedric as my suspects.  I think I went overboard to consider Nandera as a suspect, and possibly Dedric as well.  But if you look at Jalani and Dedric's strange behavior that day (which most likely can be attributed to love, even though it is odd), if you look at Jalani's association with Liah in SL, and you look at Jalani's exit of Rand's chamber at precisely the same moment as a gray man entered, it presents quite an interesting picture.  <br /> <br />     No one here has yet entertained the topics of Jalani and Liah, and Jalani leaving at the same time as the gray man arrived.<br /><br />      It could very well be that Sammael did NOT send the gholam. I don't think my theory proves anything, it just provides a perspective. But in my mind, this implies that there are either 2 gholams, or that Sammael did not originally control the gholam and borrowed it from someone else.  If Sammael borrowed it, the only likely suspect would be Graendal, who has had a nasty experience with a gholam, and whom Sammael is in partnership with.<br /><br />       To add a point about Liah's re-appearance in SL- I think that Liah was dead when she re-appeared.  How much time elapsed between her disappearance in mid-LoC, to her re-appearance at the end of ACoS?  Alot.  I think the taint would have killed her by then- recall that all her food and water would have been tainted.   In my theory I stated that I thought Liah may have been an illusion by Sammael, but now I recant and think she may have been an illusion by the SL evil.  We have already seen Fain create a similar illusion of the dead Ashamen in WH.  It probably wasn't Sammael because Sammael didn't know where Rand was at the time of the illusion.  <br /><br /><br /> As for my point about Nesune, I did not mean to imply that Nesune was a darkfriend.  I just threw that into the mix to add another perspective to the leak of info about the seals.  To whoever added that point about Galina (BA) ordered Nesune to research the seals, I thought that is an important point- and it might shed a little light on who killed Fel.  But as far as I know, Mesanna is the most likely person to have ordered Galina.  <br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ADA- AlannaDawn Anonymous-- helping wotmaniacs recovering from their AlanndaDawn Addictions in a dynamic new 12-step program.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-27 17:00:38
subject: <b>Something odd about Sulin during all this</b>
body:
At the end of this chapter, Sulin is outside when she hears a rock owl cry, and knows that Rand has left his room. But then we go to Rand in the next chapter and he hasn't left his room, he has bad dreams, and then just lies awake all night until morning. Then Rand has that incident with her where he says that from now on two guards will be good enough, refering to when he had Jalani and Dedric with him the day before at the School. Sulin is taken off guard by this remark from Rand, almost as if she isn't aware of what Rand is talking about. What am I missing here?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Why on earth would anybody want to kidnap a groundhog?&quot;<br /><br />&quot;I can think of a few reasons, the pervert!&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-27 17:26:00
subject: <b>The timing</b>
body:
The early conversation between Rand and Fel is roughly 60 days before the murder.  If it's that conversation that worried a Chosen, why take the risk of leaving 60 days to Fel to actually find the answers and report?<br /><br />Moridin might have waited to learn more, but Sammael? I can't imagine Sammael learning about Fel and waiting 60 days to act. Worrying about the the pattern philosophy is not like him, let alone waiting to be sure of what Fel could discover - he was never the careful type, a few Chosen have commented on it. If he did order the murder nonetheless, he must have learned about Fel later, not from the maiden.<br />


created: 2002-02-27 17:59:13
subject: <b>A few more points</b>
body:
Hmm, the timing is an interesting question-  where do you get your 60 day cycle from?  If it really is 60 days, you're probably right- Sammael would not have waited that long to have executed Fel.  Assuming your 60 days is right, which I am not sure it is, there is no way in hell that Liah could have survived in SL as long as she did.  Especially considering that she was in SL much longer than your estimated 60 days.<br /><br />         Unless there are 2 gholams, I still can't imagine Moridin as being the one who ordered Fel's death.  As far as I remember, Moridin hadn't really appeared in LoC, had he?  The WOT search certainly says he hadn't.<br /><br />        Besides Sammael, I think Graendal is the only real option.  I personally think that Graendal is one of the most dangerous Forsaken.  Sammael had a great deal of power over Graendal at the time he commanded the gholam to come to Ebou Dar.  It could be that he borrowed the gholam from Graendal, because we know that Graendal had an experience with a gholam  once before.  <br /><br />        But there is still the question about Nesune researching the seals-  Clearly Nesune was ordered by Galina to do the research.  Could Mesanna have ordered Galina?<br /> <br />  I don't think Mesanna commands a gholam, but we do know that Mesanna, Demmy, Graendal, and Semi all were having meetings with each other during LoC.  Graendal could have shared her knowledge with Mesanna- who then conveyed the orders to her B.A. to research the threat.  Nesune, ordered by Galina may have researched it and further and told Galina   (from her perspective) that breaking the seals could offer some hope of re-prisoning the D.O.  After this info was conveyed, Fel may have been executed.<br /> <br />       I'm stretching here, but clearly RJ has alot that is happening in between the lines in this instance.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ADA- AlannaDawn Anonymous-- helping wotmaniacs recovering from their AlanndaDawn Addictions in a dynamic new 12-step program.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-27 18:55:04
subject: <b>another thing I just thought of...</b>
body:
Sammael can hardly have a spy among the Maiden near Rand.  <br /><br />It's Graendal who tells him (LOC 23) that Rand is seriously disturbed when the Maiden die for him and Sammael is very surprised of that and is puzzled about the concept which he hardly believes, to which Greandal replies that he never paid enough attention to the people and that's the Aiel who might have changed the least since the Breaking. What she doesn't tell him is that two of her spies reported to her that Rand wants to kill Sammael because he killed Maidens in the Cairhien siege.<br /><br />So, Liah was lost in SL in chapter 20, before Sammael even knew about the Maidens.  He might have used the information provided by Graendal later on if he saw a maiden lost in SL while preparing his plan, though.<br /><br />If Jalani works for anyone, it could well be for Graendal. <br /><br />It would make sense that Graendal has a spy very close to Rand :<br /><br />- She is worried about him and fears he will come after her. Having a spy nearby is a good way to be warned in time.<br />- She knew about Lanfear's death and might actually be the one who first told Demandred (after telling the DO about Lanfear, and Asmodean who she killed).<br />- She knew about Rand's fear of the Maidens dying and this is not something she could pick out from the streets' rumors. Actually, I think few people outside the Aiel and a bunch of Caemlyn nobles in front of which Rand made an outburst about Sammael knows about it, I think.  <br />- She knew well the state of Rand's armies near Tear, but pretended she went there herself (if she lied, Jalani went there with Rand)<br />- She was told by a spy that Rand killed Sammael's messenger. In theory, only maidens, Bashere and Saldaean soldiers were present.<br /><br />Interestingly, if Jalani is Graendal's spy, she would know about the trip to Shadar Logoth.  It would be just like her to pretend babbling about it in front of Sammael and later warn Moridin that Sammael had set up something for Rand in SL...<br /><br />Moridin might have found out about the existence and whereabouts of the gholam too. He knew *a lot* about Sammael's actions : Shadar Logoth and his trap there, the callboxes etc.  He must also have informants very close to Rand or to Sammael to know the precise moment when Rand went after Sammael.  In theory, only Bashere and Mat knew the real plan, so I guess his mole is in Illian (or it's simply Osang'ar).<br />


created: 2002-02-27 19:51:17
subject: <b>Reply to Dom's comments</b>
body:
Dom you have some damn good blackboard posts- you should post  some of your theories to the theorypost sometime.  This is why I like theorypost, because of the black-board- some really interesting ideas can arise from here.<br /><br /><br />Sammael can hardly have a spy among the Maiden near Rand.<br /><br /> - -I think you are really giving pretty conclusive evidence here that Sammael doesn't have any spies near Rand, but that Graendal does.  Jalani fits this profile very well.<br /><br />It's Graendal who tells him (LOC 23) that Rand is seriously disturbed when the Maiden die for him and Sammael is very surprised of that and is puzzled about the concept which he hardly believes, to which Greandal replies that he never paid enough attention to the people and that's the Aiel who might have changed the least since the Breaking. What she doesn't tell him is that two of her spies reported to her that Rand wants to kill Sammael because he killed Maidens in the Cairhien siege.<br /><br />- -good point- Sammael is just too plain ignorant of Maidens to have a Maiden as a spy.<br /><br />So, Liah was lost in SL in chapter 20, before Sammael even knew about the Maidens. He might have used the information provided by Graendal later on if he saw a maiden lost in SL while preparing his plan, though.<br /><br />-  another excellent point.  Liah's appearance in Shadar Logoth has been one of the most perplexing unresolved questions to me in WoT.  As I said earlier, I think Liah died.  This leaves 2 options to who she was- an illusion by either Sammael or by the SL evil/Mashadar.  I was leaning on the SL evil, but if Sammael ran into Liah when he was setting up his traps, he would be perfectly able to create an illusion of her.  Another point I just thought of was that, Sammael didn't have to know where exactly Rand was to create an illusion of Liah-  he could have used Liah's illusion to find Rand.  <br /><br /><br />If Jalani works for anyone, it could well be for Graendal.<br /><br />---  One other point that made me realize that Jalani might not work for Rand is when Rand to SL and set his traps around the waygate.  If Jalani worked for Sammael, she might have reported that Rand did something to the waygate.  However, during Sammael-Rand showdown, Sammael, by sending trollocs through the waygate, seemed completely ignorant of any such trap.<br /><br /><br />It would make sense that Graendal has a spy very close to Rand :<br /><br />She was told by a spy that Rand killed Sammael's messenger. In theory, only maidens, Bashere and Saldaean soldiers were present.<br /><br />---  I take issue with this point.  She might have had a spy tell her of the messenger's killing, but the spy could not have been present during the actual killing.  If this were so, then Graendal would have known that there was no truce between Rand and Sammael, and she would not have submitted herself to Sammael.<br /> <br /><br />Interestingly, if Jalani is Graendal's spy, she would know about the trip to Shadar Logoth. It would be just like her to pretend babbling about it in front of Sammael and later warn Moridin that Sammael had set up something for Rand in SL...<br /><br />-- I'm not quite sure what you mean here.  Did Graendal babble something about Shadar Logoth to Sammael?  I don't remember anything like that.  I don't think Graendal would have warned Moridin this early.  Graendal didn't really submit herself to Moridin until WH.  Moridin probably found out through his own means.<br /><br />Moridin might have found out about the existence and whereabouts of the gholam too. He knew *a lot* about Sammael's actions : Shadar Logoth and his trap there, the callboxes etc. He must also have informants very close to Rand or to Sammael to know the precise moment when Rand went after Sammael. In theory, only Bashere and Mat knew the real plan, so I guess his mole is in Illian (or it's simply Osang'ar).<br /><br />-- that's a good point.  Are you saying that Moridin might have learned of the whereabouts of the gholam through his spying, and then turned the gholam to his own use?  I don't think that is likely, based on the gholam's wandering in Ebou Dar.  <br /><br />     Basically, the picture I think that is emerging is that Graendal was the one who found the gholam and ordered it to kill Fel- based on the spy reports from Jalani.  Later, after  Graendal submitted herself to Sammael, she let him borrow it and gave him control.  Once Sammael died, the gholam just started wandering on its own without anymore orders to go anywhere.  <br />       The only other likely possibility is that there is another gholam- which Moridin commands.  Recall in TGH where  Barthanes was killed?  Barthanes was killed in a manner that is startingly similar to the way that the gholam kills.  Interestingly, Fel was killed in the school, which is Barthanes old palace.  It could be that there was a gholam around back even in TGH.  However, I don't think that Moridin was the one who killed Fel, because Moridin didn't really start appearing until ACoS.      <br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ADA- AlannaDawn Anonymous-- helping wotmaniacs recovering from their AlanndaDawn Addictions in a dynamic new 12-step program.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-27 20:35:11
subject: <b>60 days</b>
body:
&quot;Where do you get your 60 day cycle from?&quot;<br /><br />From one of the Timelines I found.<br /><br />http://www.users.bigpond.com/steven_cooper/wotchron.htm<br /><br />It estimates that Fel and Rand met on Nesan-11<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bobbafett.gif" border="0" />Nov-06) and that Fel is killed on Taisham-13/Jan-03.  I simply trusted it, though - I don't know if it's totally accurate.     <br /><br />&quot;there is no way in hell that Liah could have survived in SL as long as she did.&quot; <br /><br />She disappeared the day after Rand and Fel met. I always found it extremely odd that she survived at all too, that somebody close to Rand could have set it up is what I find the most interesting in your theory.<br /><br />&quot;Unless there are 2 gholams, I still can't imagine Moridin as being the one who ordered Fel's death. As far as I remember, Moridin hadn't really appeared in LoC, had he?&quot; <br /><br />Indeed. It would make sense that he reappeared before or at the same time as Shaidar Haran, Osang'ar and Arang'ar though, and that Jordan kept it from us (and the Forsaken).<br /><br />&quot;Besides Sammael, I think Graendal is the only real option.&quot;<br /><br />I agree, I don't really believe it's Moridin either.<br /><br />&quot;I personally think that Graendal is one of the most dangerous Forsaken.&quot;<br /><br />Oh yes, she's the really devious of the lot. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" /> She even dares plotting against the DO's orders if she can find a way to have Sammael take the blame in her place... Nasty woman, trying to fool the DO himself... The deaths of Sammael, Rahvin and Asmodean could probably be blamed on her and I still don't rule out that she manipulated Lanfear to attack Rand too, like she set up Sammael and Rahvin.<br /><br />I wouldn't put it past Graendal that she was the one who controlled the oh so beautiful Isendre that Lanfear came to despise so much and who told Lanfear's agent Kadere that Rand was sleeping with Aviendha...  Not only Isendre fits almost perfectly her pet profile and actually tried often to sleep with Rand (on Graendal's orders to make Lanfear furious?) but we also know that Asmodean was previously in Arad Doman and Graendal could well have provided the information about Asmo's whereabouts and Lanfear's escort to the Waste in the first place, without of course telling Rahvin and Sammael that she was plotting with Lanfear and knew that Asmodean was not really a traitor. If she did that, no wonder that she wanted Asmodean out of the way before Sammael or the DO learned about it... This initial plan could have been set between the women to get rid of Rahvin and Sammael, simply Graendal pierced Lanfear's true intentions about Rand and she double-crossed *all of them* (and poor Asmodean, the road kill).<br /><br />She also says herself that her pets are just a smokescreen and that the others don't understand their extent of their purpose, no doubts she has many in very interesting places to hide this from even the Chosen. And we still don't know what she was up to in the White Tower for Alviarin to have met her...<br /><br />&quot;Sammael had a great deal of power over Graendal at the time he commanded the gholam to come to Ebou Dar. It could be that he borrowed the gholam from Graendal, because we know that Graendal had an experience with a gholam once before.&quot;<br /><br />Or she could have asked Sammael to do it to make him reveal his suspected gholam to her or because she thought she could use such a trademarked death to eventually make Rand discover that Sammael killed Fel. <br /> <br />&quot;Clearly Nesune was ordered by Galina to do the research. Could Mesanna have ordered Galina?&quot;<br /><br />This is what I think, but I'd have to read this chapter again.  As far as I remember, there was nothing to prove that Galina asked her to investigate but I remember that Nesune was not asked if she wanted to join the expedition, she was rudely ordered to by the Head of the Brown Ajah and ressented it.  I'm not sure what kind knowledge about the Seals could escape Mesaana and be expected by her to be found by a Brown sister, though. If Mesaana learned of Fel, it could be a coincidence or she could have been clued by Graendal, as you suggested. Graendal might have offered to ask Sammael to take care of it.<br /><br />In the end I think only one thing is clear : the &quot;should I break the seals already?&quot; issue is something that could seriously hinder the &quot;Let the Lord of Chaos rule&quot; plan and Sammael happens to be the one who didn't know the DO's true intentions about Chaos.  I think RJ would rather have a Forsaken who cares about the plan kill Fel - it will be more interesting when it's revealed than if Sammael did it out of nowhere and we never even learn about it since he is dead.<br />


created: 2002-02-27 21:03:57
subject: <b>Answer</b>
body:
--- I take issue with this point. She might have had a spy tell her of the messenger's killing, but the spy could not have been present during the actual killing. If this were so, then Graendal would have known that there was no truce between Rand and Sammael, and she would not have submitted herself to Sammael.<br /><br />Your absolutely right, whatever she learned from her spy, she didn't know what Rand has said... Hmmm... someone in the palace but not in the inner circle then... I still suspect that one of the 2 spies who told her about the Maiden is in Caemlyn, a darkfriend we once saw close to Rahvin, one of the Lords who was also happened to be present when Rand made his outburst about Sammael when Taim introduced himself. I don't remember his name, was it Lord Pelivar?<br /><br />&quot;-- I'm not quite sure what you mean here. Did Graendal babble something about Shadar Logoth to Sammael? I don't remember anything like that.&quot;<br /><br />I meant behind the scenes.  She could have arise Sammael's curiosity about Shadar Logoth and let him know incidentally that a maiden was trapped there, and like a good puppy Sammael went there to see for himself. Of course, she wouldn't tell him what Rand did to the Waygate.  If she was lucky, both Rand and Sammael might die fighting in that place and the DO couldn't blame her.    <br /><br /><br />&quot;I don't think Graendal would have warned Moridin this early.&quot;<br /><br />You're probably right on that.  If it happened nonetheless, it must have been through a visit of Shaidar Haran where Graendal was asked to reveal some stuff about Sammael that he communicated to the hidden Moridin, like he acted between Semirhage and Asang'ar (one torturing, one using the informations gathered to become &quot;Halima&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />.<br /><br />I'd have more, but I must work a bit for now!


created: 2002-02-27 22:28:37
subject: <b>Another response</b>
body:
Since we our clearly evolving some interesting- and deep ideas- here, I'll will continue the discussion.<br />   I must say that is plot is getting really in depth, I really have to concentrate to keep up with everything you are saying.<br /><br />&quot;but we also know that Asmodean was previously in Arad Doman and Graendal could well have provided the information about Asmo's whereabouts and Lanfear's escort to the Waste in the first place, without of course telling Rahvin and Sammael that she was plotting with Lanfear and knew that Asmodean was not really a traitor. If she did that, no wonder that she wanted Asmodean out of the way before Sammael or the DO learned about it...&quot;<br /><br />      I am not sure exactly what you are saying here.  Are you saying Graendal was currying favor with Rahvin and Asmodean?  Why would it have mattered if she told them about Asy's whereabouts?<br /><br /><br /> &quot;This initial plan could have been set between the women to get rid of Rahvin and Sammael, simply Graendal pierced Lanfear's true intentions about Rand and she double-crossed *all of them* (and poor Asmodean, the road kill).&quot;<br /><br /> It seems to me that the only reason Rahvin was removed was because he angrered Rand by removing Morgase.  Otherwise it just makes sense that Rand would have ignored Rahvin until he finished with Sammael.  The original plan, I thought was for them to link up and face Rand together.  <br /><br /> <br /><br />&quot; And we still don't know what she was up to in the White Tower for Alviarin to have met her...&quot;<br /><br /> Refresh me here.  Was there a passage that said that Graendal was working with Alviarin?<br /><br />&quot;Or she could have asked Sammael to do it to make him reveal his suspected gholam to her or because she thought she could use such a trademarked death to eventually make Rand discover that Sammael killed Fel.&quot;<br /><br /> That is another excellent idea- but so, so involved- no one would ever be to figure that out, unless they saw it from someone's POV.<br /><br />&quot;Clearly Nesune was ordered by Galina to do the research. Could Mesanna have ordered Galina?<br /><br />This is what I think, but I'd have to read this chapter again. As far as I remember, there was nothing to prove that Galina asked her to investigate but I remember that Nesune was not asked if she wanted to join the expedition, she was rudely ordered to by the Head of the Brown Ajah and ressented it. I'm not sure what kind knowledge about the Seals could escape Mesaana and be expected by her to be found by a Brown sister, though. If Mesaana learned of Fel, it could be a coincidence or she could have been clued by Graendal, as you suggested. Graendal might have offered to ask Sammael to take care of it.&quot;<br /><br />Since Nesune knew about the seals, it probably means that more than one forsaken were involved in killing Fel, or at least more than one Forsaken knew about Fel.<br /><br /> &quot;I think RJ would rather have a Forsaken who cares about the plan kill Fel - it will be more interesting when it's revealed than if Sammael did it out of nowhere and we never even learn about it since he is dead.&quot;<br /><br /> That's another good point, and one I bet we will learn more about, especially when the seals come back into play in the story.<br /><br /> &quot;Your absolutely right, whatever she learned from her spy, she didn't know what Rand has said... Hmmm... someone in the palace but not in the inner circle then... I still suspect that one of the 2 spies who told her about the Maiden is in Caemlyn, a darkfriend we once saw close to Rahvin, one of the Lords who was also happened to be present when Rand made his outburst about Sammael when Taim introduced himself. I don't remember his name, was it Lord Pelivar?&quot;<br /><br /> Here is another possibility-  Graendal might have some Aiel spies in Cairhien, but not in Caemlyn.  That makes some sense.  There probably wouldn't be too much communication between the 2 camps in different cities.  Actually, the 4 nobles- Dyelin, Luan, Abelle, and Pelivar were present immediately before the messenger from Illian arrived.  So one of them could have keyed Graendal abou the event.  I have always thought that Dyelin might be a darkfriend- because she was so conveniently with Elayne when Hanlon executed his plan.  <br /> <br /><br />&quot;I meant behind the scenes. She could have arise Sammael's curiosity about Shadar Logoth and let him know incidentally that a maiden was trapped there, and like a good puppy Sammael went there to see for himself. Of course, she wouldn't tell him what Rand did to the Waygate. If she was lucky, both Rand and Sammael might die fighting in that place and the DO couldn't blame her.&quot;<br /><br />This is an another good point.  I wish to add one more piece of complexity to the puzzle.  On pg. 458, when Rand travels to Shadar Logoth, Lews Therin suddenly thinks, &quot;I must kill Demandred.  Does Demandred have some connection to Shadar Logoth.  To here?&quot;  I have been highly perplexed by this comment.  I have come to believe that Lews Therin does not babble, everything Lews Therin thinks means something. And I have no idea why Demandred's involvement would have been at SL- but from WH, we know that Demmy did know a little bit about SL, because he reasoned out Rand's plan to clean the taint so quickly when he realized he was in SL.  Perhaps Demandred could have had some involvement with Graendal in setting Sammael up.  Otherwise, I can't think of anything, definitely nothing longterm, because Shadar Logoth is know destroyed.<br /><br />     Finally, I have been wondering about who sent the gray man.  Is it possible that both Graendal and Demandred, together, worked out a plan to send the gray man?  Taim, by all evidence so far, appears to be an agent of Demandred.  I think it is not coincidental that both the gray man and Taim arrived simultaneously.  I also think it is not coincidental that Jalani left the room as the same time as the gray man entered.  Basically, what I think might have happened is that Graendal and Demandred may have worked up a plan together to set up Sammael and make Rand more angry with Sammael.  Graendal sent the gray man, and used Jalani to help coordinate when the gray room should have entered the room, and Jalani could have also coordinated the timing of Taim entering.  Meanwhile, Demandred sent Taim to kill the gray man so that Rand could not truly know who sent it, and had Taim suggest that the gray man was &quot;had to be sent by Sammael.&quot;  This is a plan truly worthy of both Graendal and Demandred.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ADA- AlannaDawn Anonymous-- helping wotmaniacs recovering from their AlanndaDawn Addictions in a dynamic new 12-step program.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-27 22:39:22
subject: <b>Graendal</b>
body:
&quot;I personally think that Graendal is one of the most dangerous Forsaken.&quot;<br /><br />Absolutely.  And dangerous for reasons beyond just power.  I rank her just behind Moridin, even though he's got her whipped in sheer power, and perhaps even intelligence.  He's just not as sneaky as she is.<br /><br />She seems the most flexible of the Forsaken.  All of them, even Moghedien, seem rigid in their style and manner.  She managed to stay out of the cous'a'coura (sp? soul cages) because she bent with the wind.<br /><br />Everyone's hung up on Demandred, but that's because we haven't seen him within his disguise -- only as himself.  And frankly, I think he's a bit of a lunatic.  Mesaana probably ranks right behind Graendal, but she limits herself in staying unseen.<br /><br />Another thing: on 2 occasions (maybe 3, going on memory here), it has been mentioned that Graendal has a tiny, simple, golden ring.  This is surely an *angreal of some sort -- and not a minor one.  No other item of power has been mentioned as much that has not played a major role.  Even Demandred wondered about it, but foolishly dismissed it.  Graendal is strong, but not like the others; with this item she will surprise the snot out of someone.<br /><br />And don't forget -- she was quite willing to destroy Moghedien and Cyndane (not then known as Lanfear, and weaker than she had been, but still powerful).  And it is not her manner to act in such a way unless she was certain she could do it.


created: 2002-02-28 10:08:32
subject: <b>It</b>
body:
is an angreal, it states it somewhere in the books.<br /><br />I'd agree that Graendal is probably the second most dangerous Forsaken, although I wouldn't put her so close to Moridin. Lanfear is ruled by her emotions, Moghedien is just too weak to compete, Demandred is twisted by his hatred of Lews Therin. Then again, I don't think we've seen enough of Mesanna and Semirhage to say if they're more dangerous. Though just going off what we've heard, I'd say it's possibly that semirhage is just as dangerous, after all it's the only one of the Forsaken LTT seems afraid of.


created: 2002-03-01 12:10:15
subject: <b>another possible reason Graendal has spies around Rand</b>
body:
In WH, during the Forsaken meeting, we see Graendal's reaction to hearing about the Choedan Kal from Demandred's POV.<br />  Demmy thought she was a touch too flamboyant, even for Graendal.  He thought that he needed to keep a closer eye on her.<br /> <br />If it is true about Graendal knowing about the Choedan Kal, how did she find out?  That is a good question!  There aren't a whole lot of suspects:  the people who knew included Asmodean, Lanfear, Min, Nynaeve, Lan, and Rand.  I don't think any of them are really good suspects, unless of course, Graendal has Min under some kind of compulsion, which very well could be possible.<br /><br />Of course, one of the Aiel could have reported to Graendal of the devastation of Rhuidean, and Graendal could have reasoned out that a power angreal/sa'angreal must have been involved.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ADA- AlannaDawn Anonymous-- helping wotmaniacs recovering from their AlanndaDawn Addictions in a dynamic new 12-step program.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-01 12:19:51
subject: <b>For those of you who think I am crazy...</b>
body:
Here is the Link to the evil Min theory<br /> <br />This is  a great theory if you haven't already read it!  There is also another excellent theory here that says that Rand  has a homing device on his person (most likely his Illian crown or dragon scepter) and that is why the Black-coats are able to find him so easily.  Both theories are by Perrin Goldeneyes; they are well-researched and 2 of my favorite theories on the net.<br /> <br /> http://www.runningstone.com/wot/data/theories.html<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ADA- AlannaDawn Anonymous-- helping wotmaniacs recovering from their AlanndaDawn Addictions in a dynamic new 12-step program.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-01 13:03:57
subject: <b>Every point...</b>
body:
1) Rand asks Idrien how many spies she has in the palace since she is always ready to greet him when he arrives, even when he desn't send word that he is coming. Idrien looks surprised because a)she didn't expect him to know and b)this is Cairhien. No one talks of The Game of Houses and related activities openly.<br /><br />2)Jalani and Dedric are attracted to each other. The Maiden flirt rituals are quite distinct... can't be mistaken.<br /><br />3)Jalani feels the need to explain Liah's dissappearance because it is odd, unnatural.<br /><br />4)Jalani, even if she were a DF, couldn't have alerted a Grey Man 'cos she wouldn't have noticed him! The GM just bid his time until he knew that Rand as relatively alone, THAT'S ALL!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" />Karlaan <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/myrddraal.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-01 15:32:49
subject: <b>Another reply</b>
body:
I've already explained the first 2 points elsewhere no this blackboard. <br /><br /><br />&quot;3)Jalani feels the need to explain Liah's dissappearance because it is odd, unnatural.&quot;<br /><br />What about the fact that they were together?  This is the best clue in my theory, although it is not really evidence.<br /><br />&quot;4)Jalani, even if she were a DF, couldn't have alerted a Grey Man 'cos she wouldn't have noticed him! The GM just bid his time until he knew that Rand as relatively alone, THAT'S ALL!&quot;<br /><br />Well, I've ellaborated one of my other points a few posts ago.  First of all, Jalani could have seen the GM appear, if the GM showed himself to her!  No one considers this possibility.  If Taim really knew about the GM before-hand, which is most logical, then he very well may have needed someone to coordinate his timing, so that he did not arrive too early or too late.  This coordinator could very well have been Jalani.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ADA- AlannaDawn Anonymous-- helping wotmaniacs recovering from their AlanndaDawn Addictions in a dynamic new 12-step program.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-01 20:09:41
subject: <b>Re: The many links between Julani and Sammael</b>
body:
One thing I'd like to point out. Rand asked that question as himself. The reason he asked it was because they already knew he was coming. They were waiting for him, that is why he asked about spies in the palace. It wasn't LTT it was Rand.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Asha'man al Cor<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Asha'man of the Woman-Loving Ajah<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" />Gaidin of the Iron Mountain Taardad<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" />Carneira of Moiraine Sedai<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Protector of the Night<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Asha'man al Cor<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-06-10 20:18:01
subject: <b>my thoughts</b>
body:
this has been a rather interesting discussion........even though it happened a year ago.  As to the gholam in Ebou Dar, didnt it say somewhere that it was under orders to kill Mat?  Mabee not but it is possible.  I really like the point of Graendal being one of the most powerful Forsaken.  With Messana being....reigned in....by our Myrdrall friend, I think that Graendal's power will become more effective.  There wsa a comment about Osan-gar or sumone like that being a spy and relaying stuff.  He was Dashiva, and wouldnt have in a position to do such tasks like that.  One problem I have with the Taimendred theory, is that why would Osan Gar put himself in such a position of submission to Demandred?  I mean.... the Forsaken are all rather pround characters.........unless he didnt know that Taim was Demandred.  Anyway...that is off the subject, and I should have read the discussion more carefully, oh well


created: 2002-02-28 10:46:37
subject: <b>Probably not</b>
body:
I don't think the mask of mirrors shatters when someone toches it.  I just think I just think your hand would pass through it.  Like when Elayne is drunk through her bond to Brigitte, you can see her dress through itas she moves and it falls outside the weave.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cheers!</font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-28 12:01:22
subject: <b>Why haven't Graendal and Sammael used this elsewhere</b>
body:
Remember when these two go on one of their visits with Savanna, they shy away from being touched, so as not to affect their Mask of Mirrors.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-02-28 12:15:56
subject: <b>It might be posible...</b>
body:
...that only the one who actually touches a MoM can see the truth behind it...this explains both Graendal&#180;s behaviour toward her servant and Sammy&#180;s shying away from Sevanna&#180;s touch...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gimli.gif" border="0" /> Llaydwhonn Gaidin <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gimli.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> The disguised Asha&#180;man <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> Still unbonded <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/r2d2.gif" border="0" /> Dedicated to the Black Ajah <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/r2d2.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-28 13:44:52
subject: <b>Darkfriends, Compulsion, and the Mask o' Mirrors</b>
body:
Ebram appears to be a darkfriend under compulsion, so I don't think Graendal cares what he knows. From other scenes (Forsaken meetings), we know she is obviously very confident in her skills in compulsion.<br /><br />Also, there is nothing to indicate that the &quot;Lady Basene&quot; would be leaning on her escort when they reach Lord Ituralde.<br /><br />Also, I am a little unfamiliar with the exact weakness of the Mask of Mirrors - does the illusion fail only to the person touching the disguised individual, or does everyone see through the disguise if one person makes contact? If it's the former, then Graendal is in no risk from Ebram touching her in Ituralde's presence.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">kinghomer <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />&#8220;Marge, don&#8217;t discourage the boy. Weaseling out of things is important to learn. It&#8217;s what separates us from the animals &#8230; except the weasel.&#8221;</font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-28 16:52:47
subject: <b>The Mask of Mirrors is not undone by touch...</b>
body:
the Illusion remains, though someone touching one using the Mask of Mirrors would know something was wrong.  The Mask of Mirors only hides, not changes, the physical characteristics of a person.  In WH, Rand uses Illusion to assume the persona of a short, gnarled, ugly man.  Waving your hand over the dwarf's head would have revealed the Illusion as your hand would suddenly bump into something that wasn't there.  Rand would not suddenly reappear.  Sammy and Graendal would not want to be touched as the Shaido, already naturally suspicious of wetlanders, would realize they were being duped in some way.  <br /><br />As for Graendal's henchman, we've seen in WH that though someone knows an illusion is in place there is still a change in their attitude towards the one using Illusion.  I refer to Min's revulsion at the Illusion Rand assumes in Caemlyn.  Min knew who was behind that mask...  Graendal's henchman knew who was behind the face of Basene.  His touching her would not, however, destroy the Illusion.


created: 2002-02-28 20:04:53
subject: <b>Mask of Mirrors? ...Puh! - REJECTION!</b>
body:
Although the passage quoted states &quot;Ebram rose smoothly and offered an arm for the frail Domani woman he now saw&quot; , no where does it say she took his arm. Thusly there is no irrefutable or 'hard evidence to dispute'as you claim.<br /><br />Not only does this maintain the validity of the Mask of Mirrors weakness, it also removes the possibility of some new unknown Forsaken only powers.<br /><br />Hm!  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> =  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> =


created: 2002-02-28 20:58:36
subject: <b>I can't remember exactly where...</b>
body:
but when Lanfear was posing as Selene, she was using the Mask of Mirrors only slightly, right?  She wanted to appear young enough that Rand would fall for her.  However, throughout tGH Rand repeatedly touches her.  For one, he throws her to the ground in the illuminator's Guild house, and gets on top of her to protect her from the explosion.  From this it appears that the MoM doesn't pop or become ineffectual if the person is touched, it just cannot hide the physical presence that it is masking from the person doing the touching.  Because Lanfear's MoM was really small and just had to do with her face being younger, it was not affected by Rand throwing her body around.  However, what if he had kissed her?  I don't think that this would have made a difference either, since her lips would be overall the same shape and in the same place regardless.  <br /><br />I am not 100% sure, but it seems that only physical inconsistencies, such as height, color, width, or tecture, can be dangerous to the touch if using MoM.  It could be that the arm that the servant was holding was not &quot;inconsistent&quot; with Graendal's arm, and therefore the MoM would be unaffected to anyone watching.  <br /><br />Now here is a question...<br />What if somebody like Graendal, powerful and extremely good at compulsion, could force somebody to see her as she wanted to be seen?  In other words, she wouldn't have to worry about somebody questioning her mask of mirrors if she could ensure that within their minds they saw what she wanted to see.  Hmm...I will have to think more about that.<br />


created: 2002-03-01 12:20:30
subject: <b>Mesaana</b>
body:
Messana uses the MoM to disguise herself in her dealings with Alviarin.  Her dress pokes through giving Alviarin a &quot;clue&quot; to work on, but the MoM remains.<br /><br />The MoM touch test is irrelevant to the Taimandred theory as no-one knew what Demandred looked like &amp; Taim had previously had a beard.  So he wouldn't need the MoM.  Likewise Osangar didn't use the MoM when posing as Dashiva.  We have to go on the other, stronger evidence of his not recognising the first Ashaman Taim had recruited.


created: 2002-03-01 13:08:59
subject: <b>Graendal..</b>
body:
G is a mind-messer, so noone would notice even if she did shimmer a bit (ref:the guide). Also, The passage doesn't specifically state that the Mask DID NOT SHIMMER, or that the guy touched it (he took her arm not her face, I'm assuming he touched only cloth, though I need to reread).<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" />Karlaan <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/myrddraal.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-01 15:59:34
subject: <b>Well...</b>
body:
The passage reads that she becomes a &quot;frail Domani&quot; we all know that Graendal has a little bit of meat on her so for her to change so dramatically it would make iteraction extremely dificult. Also, (though i am not sure about this) when Elayne and party are looking for the bowl of winds they disguise themselves. Now whether or not this is the MoM they are using it aides this theory. two ways: One-if it is the MoM then when elayne feels the effects of being drunk through the bond with Birgitte then when she turns Nyneave into a topless Atha'an Miere and Nyneave franticly jumps up and down interrupting the illusion that means that it is affected by movement. i don't think Graendal would risk an illusion that fickle when conversing with foriegn diplomats. Two- if it is not the MoM then if there is an illusion more advanced than the one the Elayne and party used, then why couldn't there be a more advanced one that some of the Forsaken know? Oh, about the whole touching the arm bit, if Jordan snuck that in to deceive readers, then no wonder it takes him so long to write. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> Besides, i don't see why another form of illusion is such an improbable idea. Afterall, i'm sure there is still some advanced channeling that we have yet to see. Kinda makes you wanna go Hmmmmm...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;I just figure that we have two things we can do. Help, or we can sit back and watch a country destroy itself on CNN.&quot; <br />      -Black Hawk Down<br /><br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-01 16:03:58
subject: <b>Oh yeah,</b>
body:
Plus, why did't Jordan say the Mask of Mirrors when describing the weaving that Graendal had manipulated?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;I just figure that we have two things we can do. Help, or we can sit back and watch a country destroy itself on CNN.&quot; <br />      -Black Hawk Down<br /><br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-01 18:58:37
subject: <b>Demandred</b>
body:
&quot;he wouldn't need the MoM. Likewise Osangar didn't use the MoM when posing as Dashiva.&quot;<br /><br />Osang'ar's body was new and thus unknown to everyone including most of the other Chosen. LTT in Rand's head would go completely crazy should he meet Demandred in person, actually I think Rand even state once that he now knows what all the Chosen look like from LTT's memories.<br /><br />It's quite possible that a more elaborate form of Illusion than the MoM exists, otherwise Lanfear took much risks if someone touched &quot;Keile&quot; in the Waste as her illusion was very fat and short while she is very tall and slim.


created: 2002-03-02 21:05:52
subject: <b>That's what i was thinking of!</b>
body:
I agree with Dom. i knew i had forgotten part of the theory. When Lanfear was diguised as Kielle in the waste, she almost certainly had to be using some other form of illusion. Thanx for reminding me Dom. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;I just figure that we have two things we can do. Help, or we can sit back and watch a country destroy itself on CNN.&quot; <br />      -Black Hawk Down<br /><br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-04 17:20:30
subject: <b>Demandred</b>
body:
<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br />Of course.  But the best reason why Taim was not Demandred is that Demandred would have been completely stupid to bury himself in the back country of Andor and burden himself with the day-to-day business of the Asha'man, especially since Osan'gar was already there, possibly to make sure Taim was doing the job properly.  I'm sure Demandred himself has much more important things to do, especially since Rand comes rarely to the Black Tower...<br /><br />I think the key to Demandred was given by Sammael early on : Demandred is safely hidden and controlling many proxies. And he is a general and likely to come up with some grand military plan to secure territories to the Chosen.<br /><br />I think Taim is probably one of his proxies since Moridin was hmmm... indisposed when the Asha'man appeared, but I'm sure there are many others. One could be Masema whom he can control through &quot;visions&quot; and a few darkfriends around him. I'm sure he has various others that prepare the ground for the arrival of Semirhage and the Seanchan (notably I'm sure he one way or another removed the &quot;great captain&quot; Pedron Niall in prevision of the invasion of Amadicia), and I wouldn't be surprised that it's under his influence that the Borderlanders went South - to create more chaos and possibly in prevision of a sudden major Shadowspawn attack coming from the Blight while Semirhage comes from the South and Mesaana laughs out loud as she removes the BA sisters chosen as drealords to safety, brings a huge army of shadowspawn into Tar Valon and watch as Rebels and Elaida are forced to ravage TV to get rid of them.  And I'm sure there's more proxies involved and close to Rand. Perhaps Berelain's advisor Annoura, people in Andor close to Elayne, in Cairhien etc. But that demands a lot of free time to oversee things, which he wouldn't have as Taim or anyone so involved in the day-to-day affairs of the Westlands.<br /><br />Poor Rand, betrayed on all sides. When Moridin/Demandred/Mesaana/Semirhage's trap is going to fall on the Lord of Chaos, it's might fall big time. They might provide Rand with the keys to unite rapidly what's left of the forces of the Light... but the question is what will be left then?


created: 2002-03-04 17:49:10
subject: <b>Lanfear's Illusion in the Waste</b>
body:
Whatever she wove, she clearly took into consideration that she could be touched and that she would have to handle objects.  As far as we know, she should have betrayed herself when she handled Kadere's hat to give it to Mat or handling money with the Aiel she traded with. Big hands, thin hands, the hat and money would have passed through the MoM. <br /><br />Also, being tall, wouldn't somebody remark something odd, for instance in the way the small Keile was never quite looking at people correctly or reacting to their facial  expressions?  I'm quite convinced that Lanfear used something much more elaborate than a MoM, something that bend the law of physics to make herself appear fat and small. The only flaw seemed to be that she was moving too lightly, like she didn't have the real mass of Keile to support. Lanfear couldn't afford being betrayed and unaware of it, unlike Mesaana who was not in danger from Alviarin. Lanfear had to account for Balefire Damodred and Aiel Wilders being too close for comfort.<br /><br />For sure Moghedien tried to teach as little as possible about Illusion to the girls, probably just the most basic of its arts, a screen easy to make and quite imperfect that the Chosen use only to disguise themselves temporarily or when they only need to mask their apparence, for instance Mesaana meeting Alviarin didn't need more than hiding her face and general features from her, not quite the same as pretending convincingly she was someone else.


created: 2002-03-09 21:34:39
subject: <b>touching the mask</b>
body:
I recall a quote from one of the Forsaken that it took a master at Illusion to create a mask which would pass the touch test. I think it may be around the same passage which is mentioned in this theory.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Balefried<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-10 08:17:05
subject: <b>MoM can be touched</b>
body:
Sammael visits Graendal in LoC at chapter 6. When Graendal changes her apperance to an older woman it reads:<br /><br />&quot;Her skin became coppery but dull, her hair and eyes dark but flat; she appeared gaunt and frail, a once-beautiful Domani woman slowly losing a battle against illness. He barely stopped his lip from curling. One touch would prove the angular contours of that was not hers--only the most subtle use of illusion could pass that test--but Graendal seemed wedded to flamboyness.&quot;<br /><br />That pretty much proves MoM can pass the touch test, but it requires vast knowledge to do so.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I can no longer rest under the tree of wisdom, since you have axed down the roots feeding it.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-10 17:48:14
subject: <b>Subtle != masterful</b>
body:
Subtle here means changing a few small aspects of an appearance, not that a master in the field can work miracles. Look at Selene and Lanfear, there was minimal changes made when she revealed herself to Rand. And she would have been the greatest of all with Illusion.<br /><br />Gross changes such as Graendal was doing would be discoverable by touch.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />   the Harvester of Mankind    <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />      the Thief of Years       <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />     the Slayer of Worlds      <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />     the Ultimate Reality      <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Blog - brucetheloon.blogspot.com</font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-10 08:35:17
subject: <b>Arm?</b>
body:
Maybe Graendels arm isn't so different from Lady Basene's?<br /><br /><br />Warlord of Gore<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">-Warlord <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/troll.gif" border="0" /><br />Join the WASPT. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br />You might get a free crowbar.<br /><br /><font color="dark orange"><b>C</b></font><font color="orange">y</font><font color="dark orange">a</font> <font color="orange">K</font><font color="dark orange">o</font><font color="orange">r</font><font color="dark orange">y</font><font color="black">.</font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/frown.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><b><font face="Comic Sans MS"><font color="green">Terribly </font><font color="brown">Lucky</font> <font color="green">And</font> <font color="brown">UnDeserving</font> <font color="green">Warder</font> <font color="brown">to</font> <font color="green">~BELA~</font></font></b> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Member of the wotmania Starcraft Clan. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-11-22 15:32:32
subject: <b>One Power equivalent of a padded body suit?</b>
body:
I don't see that it would be that difficult to produce the effect that Lanfear uses when pretending to be Keille. To become fatter you could just pad yourself out with a weave of Air and then weave the mask of mirrors over the top of that. This fits in well with what lanfear did (become fatter) without the risk of anything piercing the weave and also why Graendal's disguise wouldn't work as she was becoming thinner.<br /><br />It would also be a 'very subtle' use of the power as getting a weave that had the consistancy of flesh when touched and that followed your body etc would probably require quite a bit of skill.<br /><br />When I think about it though this wouldn't enable Lanfear to appear shorter. Perhaps when she needed to actually handle stuff she could kneel down behind the weave so that her arms head etc were in the same place as the illusion? I can't recall any instance when she is moving and handling stuff that requires dexterity (rather than an extra weave just to hold something near enough in the position where the illusion's hand is).<br /><br />My $0.02 and it's a bargain at twice the price.


created: 2007-12-22 11:06:07
subject: <b>Agree</b>
body:
I agree with some previous posters. The Mask of Mirrors would not shatter upon touch, instead, it would FEEL as if it was not there. The Mask of Mirrors only works with vision. For example, if Lanfear had made her skin all black, (like she ever would<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" />) no one would feel something wrong. BUT, if she made herself half the length she is now, if you moved your hand over dwarfed Lanfears head, you would feel her body as it is without the Mask of Mirrors. End of statement.


created: 2008-04-18 16:12:43
subject: <b>what about</b>
body:
When LTT laughed at the Mask of Mirrors when they were pissed off at him because one of thier party was nearly killed?<br /><br />Im thinking this can mean a few things here.<br /><br />One the mask of mirrors is either not that strong/can be discovred via touch however used in small ammounts its not that bad...But I think the Mask of mirrors might be the only one that can make you grow.<br /><br />Lanfear had some other illusion in the waste, something stronger.  <br /><br />from the way LTT laughed at the mask of mirrors its more of apprantice weave, where I think Lanfears illusion was at a masters level.<br /><br />Not to say a master using the Mask of Mirrors could do great things but its just not as good as other weaves.


created: 2002-02-28 11:37:16
subject: <b>Worms?</b>
body:
I've wondered if maybe the Worms in the Blight could be dragons in some form or another. Didn't one of the Forsaken say that the worms were an immature form of some creature? (jumara?) Maybe these are &quot;Wyrms&quot; that for whatever reason (hey, maybe the taint) can't evolve in to what we all think of as Dragons.<br /><br />Just a thought.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Long Live Taimandred! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sammy.gif" border="0" /><br />Cybrmnk <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gandalf.gif" border="0" /> -One of the last remaining believers in the Taimandred theory.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-28 17:19:48
subject: <b>Proof of Dragons</b>
body:
Thr proof of the Dragons lies in the bones inside the museum in Tanchico.  TSR<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where is my Hannelore?<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-28 21:14:41
subject: <b>unfortunately, there is no proof either way.</b>
body:
Because we know that LTT was called the Dragon doesn't mean that it was in reference to something from the AOL.  Remember, the DO addresses him as &quot;Dragon&quot;, and knows his soul to be the Dragon.  We also know that the Dragon has fought the DO an infinite amount of times, so there is no way of knowing where the name first came up.  Also, RJ has not even given us a hint that dragons exist in this world.  Therefore, no one can say decisively if they existed recently or not.  We can assume that they did at one time or another exist, merely because everything must have a cause if it exists, and the name Dragon and the serpent symbol do exist and represent each other.  The name may have several causes, but there must have been a creature that existed that resembled the symbol we know to be the dragon.  Maybe in the very first age there were some serpents that exhibited the traits of what we know to be a dragon.  Perhaps they breathed fire, and since fire is Light, and it illuminates the Dark, the champion of the Light was comparable.  Who knows...


created: 2002-03-01 07:27:15
subject: <b>Who knows?</b>
body:
My personal view is that Dragons aren't alive today, nor were they in the AoL. As to whether they were before that or if the name came from a myth, well, we'll probably never know.<br /><br />However, as to this point:<br /><br />&quot;a) Dragons are not mythology in Randland because then even the little folk from Emond's Field would have HEARD of them. They'd heard of Myrddraal, Trollocs, the Age of Legends, the Forsaken-- and they all thought it was mythology. But then they would have heard of Dragons as well.&quot;<br /><br />That doesn't make sense. They don't remember gholams, they don't remember worms, they don't remember dragkhar (as far as I know). Yet these creatures were alive in the AoL.


created: 2002-03-01 12:05:25
subject: <b>Finally!</b>
body:
Finally somebody submitting a theory saying that dragons aren't real!<br /><br />For anybody who DOES still think that dragons are real, and are in Shara, or Seanchan, or anyplace, Jordan himself has said that dragons do not exist in Randland. So unless you're saying that the creator of the series doesn't know what he's talking about, then there are no dragons.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>Stories grow from everywhere, they&#8217;re like some hideous alien moss that can just sprout up.</i><br />--Joss Whedon<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-01 12:25:12
subject: <b>No dragons in our world either.</b>
body:
We know what dragons are even though there are no such things.<br /><br />By the time our world (or the alternative version of our world) has evolved into the future world ofthe WoT they remember only the name &amp; not the mythical creature - except for the figures on the Aeil.


created: 2002-03-01 17:55:18
subject: <b>Banner</b>
body:
If they're myth, where does the figure on Rand's banner come from? Someone had had to see a dragon sometime...


created: 2002-03-01 18:23:47
subject: <b>they are as real as they are here</b>
body:
They are a myth, just like in our world. A symbol of power, and of the Aiel. Nothing more.<br /><br /><br />


created: 2002-03-02 18:08:36
subject: <b>Had to be Somewhere, somewhen</b>
body:
1.  There is a banner with a creature on it. Coincidentally enough, it is in the figure of what rl fantasy calls a 'dragon'.  Also, it is the symbol of a person who was called the Dragon.<br /><br />2.  Nobody has a clue what a dragon is, in Westland.  They recognize the symbol as the symbol of the Dragon -- i.e. the symbol is identified with the man, not the man with the symbol.<br /><br />3.  Westland has 'normal' animal creatures and no fantastical ones.  However, in other lands, there are certainly creatures that are seen as strange to us (and them).  <br /><br />4.  Nobody even has legends of creatures known as Dragons, only a person.   And nobody save historians recognize the creatures, and only the historians because it's LTT's symbol. <br /><br />But... the symbol had to come from SOMEWHERE.  Lews Therin didn't just come up with a cool, serpentine, animal-like monster and name it after his own nickname (where'd that nickname come from, anyway?).  <br /><br />Interestingly (and I hope someone can support or refute this), if my memory is correct, Lews Therin in Rand's head NEVER refers to himself as the Dragon, but as the Lord of the Morning.  Was the nickname applied after the Age of Legends?  Hmm...can't be, since it was his standard.<br /><br />Dragons MUST exist, or have existed, for continuity purposes alone (else I'll be sure to show up at a book-signing and hurl feces at RJ when this is over and done for the horrific lapse in standards).  <br /><br />To me, what's more curious about whether they existed is who gave him the nickname and why?


created: 2002-03-02 18:22:58
subject: <b>doh doh doh!</b>
body:
I forgot something fairly big (and so has everyone else so far)....<br /><br />one other group of people is familiar with dragons, though they don't know them as such:  the Aiel.<br /><br />Every clan chief wannabe who enters Rhuidean and survives emerges with a dragon tattooed on his forearm.  Curiously, only men are marked; women are not.<br /><br />One notable exception:  Mat. Why? Because Mat got something else (several things, actually).  Interestingly, Mat's the only one who went in and returned who was not of Aiel stock -- before Rand and Asmo blew it apart, at any rate.<br /><br />It would be very interesting to see if there's any way to find out if Lews Therin was born of the stock of people who later became the Aiel, but that's an aside.<br /><br />Now, we know of two other people besides Mat who went into Rhuidean (intimately, that is)...Rand and Moiraine. And all three ended up going into Finnland.  Now, back to the Aiel clanchiefs....they not only get tattoos, but they get memory.  And we know Mat got memory for certain, Rand for almost certain...and quite likely Moiraine. <br /><br />Ergo, the Finn would know of dragons.  Hence, the dragons may have come from Finnland. <br /><br />One more note:  Asmodean had reason to search Rhuidean for the Choden Kal.  And, after all, he was a bard/gleeman of incredibly long life.  He should have many memories of songs and legends forgotten -- even more than most Forsaken.<br /><br />*sits back with a satisfied smile*<br /><br />


created: 2002-03-03 04:48:14
subject: <b>To Vashti and the other supporters of the &quot;it must come from somewhere&quot; theory...</b>
body:
Please just tell me, if you believe that the symbol of a dragon proves that a dragon exists in Randland, then do you also believe that dragons are here on Earth, Where We Also Have The Symbol?  The griffon?  Unicorn?  Hippocampus?  Satyr?


created: 2002-03-03 05:44:03
subject: <b>Agrees with Eggtooth22</b>
body:
To all those who are saying Dragons are real, just because Rand is named the dragon, so that proves that there must be or must of been dragrons, do you believe that dragons are real on earth ?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Founding member of the ASI</b><br /><br /><b>TP ADMIN</b><br /><br /><b>Simon</b><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-03 12:49:10
subject: <b>To Eggtooth</b>
body:
No, not 'real'.  But there is a concept that exists.<br /><br />When you refer to Dragons, Satyrs and Unicorns, an image instantly springs to mind.  In fact, there are even personality traits you can associate with them: Dragons are vain, regal, wise and ancient; Unicorns are pure, good, symbolic of spring, wise and joyful; Satyrs are horny, musical, love dancing and lack foresight.<br /><br />In Westland, nobody has an ideal or concept for the word 'Dragon'.  Great, serpentine beasts that may or may not have wings and belch fire and hoard gold do NOT spring to their minds -- at least, we can assume that from the generally universal 'huh??' people have about it.  <br /><br />The only concept that people get is a person.  Who gave Lews Therin the nickname if the concept didn't exist?  They may as well have called him &quot;The Fluuber&quot; (and Rand would be The Fluuber Reborn).<br /><br />Without a concept and without an actual creature, it'd just be gibberish.  Yet we all know it's not.  In the real world, we have the concept. We lack the creature.  There, they don't have the concept....<br /><br />By the way, associating Westland with our real world is a bad move -- to make that a valid association, you'd have to demonstrate that we have magic (channeling) and still don't have dragons.  In our fantasy, dragons are magical creatures.  We don't have magic, and we don't have dragons.  It stands to reason that they DO have magic (and fantastical creatures), and they DO have a word for and accurate reproduction of a dragon, so we have to accept the possibility -- in fact, the probability bordering on certainty -- that dragons either do exist or have existed.


created: 2002-03-03 13:28:19
subject: <b>Really?</b>
body:
What is a hippocampus?  95-99% of the world's population would have no concept of what a hippocampus is.  However, 2000 years ago, the western world would have known.  We've seen the images as well; they are common in nautical monuments.  No concept.  No creature.  <br /><br />As to comparing Randland to our world... the application of your argument to other situations is a test of validity. <br /><br />I am NOT saying that there are not dragons in Randland.  I simply do not believe that there is proof of their existance yet.  I personally hope that there are not dragons.  I believe it would detract from the unique flavor of Mr. Jordan's works.  Unless, of course, the dragons are more Eastern in nature.  Few popular writers utilize that portrayal of the mythological creature.<br /><br />


created: 2002-03-03 15:03:25
subject: <b>What's the argument?</b>
body:
I wasn't trying to prove that they specifically do exist somewhere.  I was merely refuting the original theory -- that Dragons don't exist.  <br /><br />I can't pinpoint where they are or when they were or whatever, but I don't need to.  Somewhere along the line, dragons have existed in Westland.<br /><br />The theory says they haven't.<br /><br />As for hippocampi...maybe you're right. Maybe 95-99% of our world doesn't know what they are -- but I submit that 95-99% of our world DOES have a concept of dragons.  If you're going to pinpoint your argument that a minor mythical creature and people's general lack of knowledge regarding it in our world establishes that dragons don't exist in Westland...you need a better argument.<br /><br />We don't have &quot;Richard the Hippocampi-hearted&quot;, or &quot;Saint George slaying the Hippocampus&quot;  or the Hippocampi that circles Midgard.<br /><br />Hence, Lews Therin wasn't called &quot;The Grolm&quot; and Rand isn't the Grolm Reborn.  They were named after symbols of great power and significance -- and they had a picture to go along with it.  And the Aiel are marked with the images of dragons (the clan chiefs, that is), though they don't know it.  <br /><br />Yet this symbol of great power and significance, that is still very real for whatever power/element that is marking the Aiel (the Finn?), is unknown to the rest of the world, or at least the extended continent.<br /><br />


created: 2002-03-03 15:13:54
subject: <b>Dragons</b>
body:
1.  The dragons in WoT seem to be based on chinese dragons.  Much more benign creatures than western dragons,<br /><br />2,  The world of the WoT is clearly the earth in the far future (though possibly the future of an alternate time line from ours)<br /><br />3.  Dragons have never exosted in our world but we have them on flags (ask the Welsh) <br /><br />4.  A  llong time has passed, legends fade as the man says.


created: 2002-03-03 15:37:07
subject: <b>Er....</b>
body:
Somewhere along the line I missed the assumption that Westland is Earth, in the far future.<br /><br />We have no magic, yet that is a fundamental element of stories.  Just ask Tolkien, Jordan, leGuin, et al.  Also, to our knowledge, in Earth there is no 'dream world' that spans other realities.<br /><br />If we go by the assumption that Westland is Earth, then magic came into play somewhere.  So, too, could dragons, eh?<br /><br />Anyway, I'm not going on about this anymore.  The precision of detail and the fantasy element pretty much precludes that there are or have been dragons.  The theory makes a declarative statement that there have not.  The theory is wrong, or at the very least fails to prove its point.<br /><br />Done, bye. <br /><br />


created: 2002-03-03 17:41:10
subject: <b>Dragons by any other name would not stop being dragons...</b>
body:
..'y know, like that rose saying. Ah, forget it.<br /><br />Anyway, who cares. There has to be dragons, right. I mean, after all, this is fantasy, right.<br /><br />We know what dragons look like, because we've seen drawings of them here. Well, I for one don't thick dragons EVER existed on Earth. And I don't think Randland is real. If they exist, we got a few more books for them to show up in. IMHO we will never see them and RJ will never decide if they were/are real.<br /><br />As far as worms go, I remember reading that they were created by Aginor. I think that is from The Lord of Choas. Grendael I think mentions it to another of the Forsaken. Sammael maybe. They are real showdowspawn creatures<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Pronounced: &quot;Rand was here&quot;<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shakefist.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-03 19:24:14
subject: <b>Hey Everyone!!!!!</b>
body:
The fact that there is a concept of something does not prove that it existed in this world or any other.  There is the concept that there is a man in the moon, but that doesn't make him real, magic or not.  <br /><br />I'm not saying dragosn don't exist, but it is a logical fallacy to assume they exist because of the concept.  All you can say for sure is that the CONCEPT of a dragon existed at sometime in the past.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> AOBtD <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />It`s frustrating when you know all the answers, but nobody bothers to ask you the questions.<br /><br />Never be afraid to try something new. Remember, amateurs built the ark. Professionals built the Titanic.<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-04 09:04:58
subject: <b>The last guy</b>
body:
is right, the concept of Dragons must have existed at some point, that is all.<br /><br />As for Mat, the reason he didn't come back from Rhuidean with a dragon on his arm isn't that he had other things, it's because he never entered the glass columns.<br /><br />Oh and somewhen?


created: 2002-03-04 20:53:54
subject: <b>what about the Dragon's Fang?</b>
body:
what about the 'dragon's fang' reference to the black half of the ancient AS logo?  I'm guessing that it doesn't really refer to LTT's teeth as it seems a bit weird to word it that way.  So, I guess you'd have to know what a dragon was to know that it has fangs?  Or at least have some kind of idea....


created: 2002-03-05 06:05:33
subject: <b>We do have magic, we just don't believe it any more.</b>
body:
All examples of magic, shamanism &amp; miracles noted in the past &amp; present are examples of what becomes known as chanelling in the AoL, when scientific knowledge has advanced to a point of being able to understand it.  The true source is discovered &amp; chanelling becomes a science that can be learned.


created: 2002-03-06 10:54:51
subject: <b>Okay...</b>
body:
At this point, probably no one is going to read this because it's so far down, but oh well.  RJ has said that WoT is a reworking of our legends in his own fantasy world. Therefore, WoT things are precursors to us in a different dimension. Yet at the same time time is circular, and they have knowledge of things that are known to us (that oft-quoted question of Egwene's asking about the Merc and Mosk, or whoever, is an example.) So we know about dragons (and really, who knows who first made them up?)... so they were integrated into WoT. It doesn't require much logic. And I wonder if RJ really thought so deeply about this as we all are-- wouldn't it just seems kind of cool to stick a dragon in your fantasy story? It's sort of traditional.  <br /><br />~Jynna


created: 2002-03-06 12:29:03
subject: <b>Not Necessarily</b>
body:
I don't think it would fit his world to have a great dragon curled up somewhere or flying in to burn a city or kidnap a princess.  It just wouldn't jive with the feel in my opinion.<br /><br />However, a friend of mine mentioned that he is of the opinion that dragons are natives to the dream world.  He bases this of off the dragons that were swimming about before two settled on Rand's arms.  That actually sounds more reasonable to me for some reason.


created: 2002-05-31 21:39:45
subject: <b>Vashti:</b>
body:
Earlier on you said that Mat went into Rhuidan and came out outmarked, but how Rand got marked and all the rest.<br />Well, going into Rhuidan isn't enough, those who get marked are those who go into the glass pillars.<br /><br />Just a reminder.


created: 2002-08-31 20:57:02
subject: <b>but they are marked.</b>
body:
if you notice, everybody to enter rhuidean has returned marked in some way. the clan chiefs with the single dragon, rand with his two, the wise ones with the near aes sedai appearance, and last but not least (at least to him) is that mat WAS marked. he has a scar from the hanging.<br /><br />now to get on topic, i agree with that opinion of some of you that are saying that there must have been dragons is some age of forgotten antiquity. though the theory that they live in some other world (of if?) is intriguing both in randland and in RL.<br /><br /><br />PS. i hope to contribute as much as possible to these innane disscussions <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" />


created: 2003-03-19 09:11:21
subject: <b>Emond's field</b>
body:
I  bet that the people of Emond's field never heard of To'raken or lopar, but they exist.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;If you Don't Kill It Today, It Will Eat You Tomorrow&quot;<br />                                          Me <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tinfoilhat.gif" border="0" /><br />&quot;How; The Birth Of Science. Why; The Birth Of Relgion.&quot;<br />                                          Me <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tinfoilhat.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-04-11 11:57:17
subject: <b>Try this</b>
body:
Most people agree that dragons, griffins, unicorns, etc...<br />don't exist. Why? because they are not alive today and we have no physical proof. How do any of the people on earth know that george washington was ever alive, the only proof we have is that he was written about in a book. No one alive today has meet him or talked to him but we all agree he was alive at some point. So likewise dragons were written about in books but that doesn't mean that they actually roamed the earth. We believe that dinosaurs roamed the earth at some point, because we have the bones to prove it.(they are also written about in the bible in the book of JOB)<br /><br />What i am saying is that just because we don't have proof that dragons existed in randland doesn't mean that they couldn't have. The dragon could have been the invention of a creative housewife trying to scare her child to sleep...or they could have been real<br /><br />So as always RAFO<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> foolish_gaidan <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />There must be a reason for a name like this <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />One ring to rule them all, one ring to find them<br />One ring to rule them all and in the darkness bind them<br /><br />And that belongs to Me <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/crazy.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-02-20 12:53:10
subject: <b>lets get a few things straight</b>
body:
THE PLANET EARTH IS_NOT_WOT!!!sorry for the caps and all, but even i have a life. Where you are sitting at your computer is not the seventh age, there is no real One power, no dragons, no hippogriffs, and no hippocampuses, whatever they are. and george washington does exist, hate to break it to you... if this is WoT, how does rj write about it, what is he some prophet? give it up guys...<br /><br />i forgot all about the theory, but i remember the posts, so, here we go, ill talk about them. Wait....no....forgot them, too, sorry.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smackhead.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">-Sabin<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-02-23 15:05:02
subject: <b>GHAAA! TAKE IT BACK! TAKE IT BACK!</b>
body:
BAD PERSON! I, too, apologize about the Caps, but... Ghaaaa!<br />*attempts to stab saibin* Fool! RJ said the First Age is our Age, I bet by the Seventh Age humans won't even exist! And besides, dragons might exist now, who has proof there aren't animals as intelligent as humans? Maybe dragons are too intelligent to capture, and they hide their existence. And they may have survived into the early Age of Legends, when they were finnaly discovered. Then, their myths may have survived until the War of Shadow, and then been lost in the Chaos of the War and the Breaking! I shall respond if you object! *unsheathes osan'gar and aran'gar from the War of Shadow* Understand?


created: 2005-07-17 18:25:16
subject: <b>The Mythological Trickle Down theory</b>
body:
I agree with your theory in that I believe dragons are real from before the AoL, but I think your point about myth is a crappy one.  I mean, think about it, the two rivers folk thought that real things such as Ogier, the Green Man, and even Aiel were a myth, so as such there could very likely be things that others thought of as myth that they never even heard of.  After all, not everyone knows every myth, especially as it could be a myth from the age of legends.  I mean, even Aes sedai never heard of Jo cars and the like, so it's very possible that it is a lost myth.


created: 2005-09-07 04:26:00
subject: <b>Maybe we will see, maybe we won't</b>
body:
Hello,<br /><br />As a comment to some other innaccurate assumptions (posted long ago lol)<br /><br />-Mat never went into the glasscollums, thus not being considered for the dragonmarks.<br /><br />-These glas collums were orchestrated by the ancient Aes Sedai who came to the waste alongside the Jenn Aiel. The served to preserve the memory and true identity of the Aiel. The dragons were meant to remember them they were once called the people of the Dragon, serving as Daishin Aiel under LTT.<br />Therefore the Aiel clanchief dragons are indirectly created by Aes Sedai and find their origin in LTT's nickname.<br />The clanchief dragons can not be seen as separate proof for the dragon legacy.<br /><br />-LTT was the Dragon-reborn just as Rand is, this is confirmed many times also by the DO<br /><br />-The symbol on the flag had to come from somewhere, it wasn't just made up and given a name. The dragon is without wings and resembles the Chinese version of dragons.<br />So in the discussion concerning dragons, flying creatures or raken-like creatures cannot be mentioned.<br /><br />-I think their isn't enough proof to be found whether in the WoT Dragons are mythological creatures from stories (like it seems to be the case in our world) and than later totally forgotten, or whether they have existed at some point in time.<br /><br />-One fact i see no-one mentioned is a small scene in CoT which struck me:<br /><br />We follow the Deathwatch guard who gets apporached by the seeker, and will later go search for Tuon.<br />He has a bodyservant. One he describes as extremely primitive, from a primitive tribe in Seanchan. At one point this servant catches a Rat and the DWguard knows he'll eat it. He also drinks from skulls. The DWguard remarks to himself that his primitive servant will eat anything, but for some funny reason doesn't eat lizards or anything like it...<br /><br />Primitive tribes are know to pass on and conserve history and traditions. This above passage clearly indicates to me that save Aiel, there is another human fraction that has at least some rememberance or left over tradition concerning dragons.<br />They clearly honor the creature or are in awe of it, or even fear it.<br />Dunno if that is because of the symbol or the real species of Dragons but i thought it a very 'suspicious' part for RJ to throw in so casually...


created: 2006-05-01 21:13:21
subject: <b>it's not &quot;hippocampuses&quot;</b>
body:
To clear up confusion over the hipocampi (not hippocampuses)they are creations of the god poseidon in greek mythology. poseidon being god of the sea created horses from sea foam and then, seeing that his new pets couldn't come under water with him created hippocampi which are half horse half fish. i'm not surprised most people don't recognise the allusion, they don't show up very often even in the greek myths.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Masria Sedai of the Brown Ajah<br />The Zaftig Cat Girl<br /><br />http://serpentinepoet.proboards107.com/index.cgi</font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-01 03:37:42
subject: <b>umm...</b>
body:
a nearly identical theory was posted less than two weeks ago.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>L&#237; blauf B&#250;j is L&#250;vhauf&#237;, lhei kaimei lheic Brauc.</i><br /><i>(On a wild ride to oblivion, I lost my mind.)</i></font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-01 07:17:58
subject: <b>The</b>
body:
theory board was getting better, don't let it go downhill again. At least read the theories that have already been put up so identical ones aren't. The only thing that this added was that Cadsuane is recognising BA signals rather than just happening to mention it at the right time, which is clearly something for the blackboard of the other theory, not a new one.


created: 2002-03-01 09:51:35
subject: <b>Annoura...</b>
body:
Is definitely a darkfriend.  RJ does not drop hints like &quot;rubbing her thumbs&quot; for an experienced negotiator without meaning it.  I, too, do not think that Cadsuane is BA. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="Plum">Gena Sedai</font></font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-01 14:01:20
subject: <b>Perhaps Cadsuane...</b>
body:
...merely recognizes the thumb and forefinger signal because she came close to unearthing the black ajah before.<br /><br />She claims that they have just managed to slip through her fingers after a thorough investigation by her, and it would seem to me that perhaps she can indeed identify black members through their signs, just that the lack of any other evidence to prove a sister is black kept her quiet.  <br /><br />&quot;She rubbed her thumbs, lets BURN HER!!!&quot;<br /><br /> If Cadsuane revealed something like that the White Tower would become something like the witch trials, where someone even touching their thumbs would be considered black ajah.  <br /><br />&quot;Look she used her thumb to hold that tea cup, BURN HER!!!&quot;<br /><br />In addition the Black Ajah seems to be very adept at removing obstacles that pose a threat to them, Kings, Queens, even an Amyrlin or two supposedly, if Cadsuane has any brains at all, and I think she does she would most likely search in secret for the black ajah, and with her intelligence most likely be smart enough to keep her investigations from discovery, or at least how much she has discovered.


created: 2002-03-02 05:48:44
subject: <b>we all know there was a similar theory posted not long ago</b>
body:
...so I will not comment on that.<br />I doubt strongly that Cadsuane is Black. I have always seen it as rather obvious that she hunts the Black. Much like Verin. They are old accomplices, I think. Both from Far Madding, btoh behaving oddly, both showing interest in the Black without actually seeming to be BA... And they are both prepared to do anything at all to see Rand to the last battle.<br />It would be very likely for Cadsuane to learn the signs of the BA if she was to hunt them. Merely going around checking if every sister speaks truth or does not make weapons, would be rather... uhm... unproductive...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> <font color="a52a2a">Magnus Alexander corpore parvus erat </font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <font color="b8860b">Dissenting voice of wotmania</font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <br /><font color="6495ed">Frightfully stubborn pacifist</font> <br /><br /><i><font color="669900"> Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent</font></i></font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-04 15:22:44
subject: <b>Cadsuane</b>
body:
I really don't think Cadsuane is Black (IMO there's enough small clues in her POVs to prove it) but I don't think hunting the BA is a big focus for her either. In the end I think she is above all anti-Red in her philosophy, but also pro-White Tower to the bone. She seeks to strenghten the Tower to win the Last Battle, IMO, and seeks for a way to avoid a second Breaking in the aftermath. <br /><br />Cadsuane is Green, of the Ajah that prepares itself to fight the Dreadlords and Forsaken in TG. She has been hunting men would can channel for years and years, in many eyes she is like a Red. But apparences can be deceptive... what hidden motive could a Green have of doing that, of becoming the sister who knows male channelers the best in the whole Tower? <br /><br />An obvious reason for a Green would be that she plans to seek male channelers and bring them back to the Tower once the Dragon is reborn, and to have the Tower accept them back in the fold.  Not only it would be extremely useful if not vitally necessary to fight the Forsaken and their Dreadlords with powerful circles (like the Chosen would stop at circles of 13 women just because the AS do...) and having the males and the Dragon within the Tower fold would help a great deal to avoid or limit another Breaking.  <br /><br />She clearly despises the idea of the Black Tower and the ways of the Asha'man, but she doesn't talk of &quot;dealing with them&quot; in Red fashion either, like many AS factions in both the Rebel and Tower camps would like.  Among all the sisters so far, she's the one who deals the best with the existence of the Asha'man. And she wants them strong yet humane, not meek and obedient but civilized and respectful, and caring about the world... yet strong enough to do what they have to do. In other words, she wants them to be Aes Sedai.<br /><br />So I think Cadsuane has studied men would could channel a lot for that purpose, finding ways to humanize the gentling (that would become an act of mercy toward Brothers who can't fight their madness any longer), studying their madness and its symptoms and perhaps finding tricks to fight it etc.  I think her plans involved asking the men they would find to swear Oaths to accept the gentling if necessary and perhaps to be bound as Warders to the Battle Ajah sisters.  <br /><br />There's also the clue of that embroidery of hers depicting a male hand holding a cracked symbol of the AOL Aes Sedai surrounded by flowers and thorns amd briars. Is the hand seeking to protect the symbol or to break it is unclear, but Cadsuane knows what she wants it to mean even if she thinks the events might alas go another way. I think it symbolizes the Dragon reforging the broken alliance of men and women channelers. The blooming flowers represent Saidar and probably the Ajahs (Rose the Red, Sunflower the Yellow, etc.) and the thorns and briars between each the tainted Saidin of the males.<br /><br />I think that's why Cadsuane's plan is hindered by Rand and his Asha'man who make the Red hidden in every sister come out, hindered by Elaida who severely deepened the mistrust between males and sisters and weakened the Tower when Cadsuane needed it to be united and strong to make a bold move, hindered by the Rebels who are also destroying the trust between the nations and the AS. Etc. Unsurprisingly enough, the Chosen are behind all her problems...<br /><br />But Rand cleansing Saidin might have helped her a great deal, if she can teach him to laugh and cry and if she can repair in time all the broken bridges between him and the Tower... if there is such a thing as the Tower after the Siege of Tar Valon.  For some reason I expect the Chosen to see that there isn't one by forcing Egwene to a One Power mega-battle that will ruin TV and seriously damage the image of the Aes Sedai when the tales spread. One obvious way to reach this goal would be to swarm TV with Shadowspawn to attack Elaida when Egwene arrives in front of TV, forcing Egwene to an all out Power battle to &quot;save&quot; Elaida and the Tower.   But I'd bet the Chosen had miscalculated the consequences and their attack will end up reuniting the all channelers in a new and very different Hall of the Servants, weaker and disorganized for a while but stronger in the end if they succeed rapidly at unity. <br /><br />-------------------<br /><br />As for Annoura, I can well see her being Black and manipulating Berelain very subtely since the beginning, including her early alignement with Rand and her insistence to serve Rand closely (I don't think Berelain is aware at all of this, but she is cunningly adviced by Annoura to act that way). That would explain a lot, including her very timely return to Cairhien with an army and her advisor in tow.   I think Annoura probably always thought Cadsuane to be Black without knowing for sure, because of rumors etc. She might have sent a signal to warn Cadsuane that she is on a mission and not to interfere, and she was stunned to realize she was totally wrong about her.  I wonder a lot who could be Annoura's boss though.  Ishamael is probably the only one who could have set it up long ago, but it doesn't seem to be Mesaana who holds the reins now.  Perhaps Demandred?


created: 2002-03-05 11:31:58
subject: <b>But..</b>
body:
I always imagined that the 'vileness' referred to the murders of the Amyrlins, which led to the promotion of Siuan. I don't know whether Caddy is DF, or just very clever, though... or where exactly that leaves Siuan...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" />Karlaan <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/myrddraal.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-05 19:49:17
subject: <b>Cadsuane is really... who?</b>
body:
I'm not sure about Cad one way or the other, but I've always thought it would be cool if she turned out to be Mesaana. Who better for a Forsaken to become? She has more real authority among AS than the Amyrlin (either one), and she has been away from the Tower for many years. I thought it was fun that every sister who met her on her return had assumed that she was dead. Maybe she was. I think her own POV goes against this idea, but I don't remember it actually being ruled out. Also imageine the shock of a darkfriend (Anoura) who, thinking she was talking to a fellow DF, suddenly realises she is face to face with one of the Chosen!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Treetop level, man<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-06 11:12:31
subject: <b>It would be very cool but...</b>
body:
Her POVs actually rule it out.  Cadsuane could fake being a sister in front of other people, but unless Mesaana has serious mental problems, why would she lie to herself in her POVs?  <br /><br />I'd have to check the books for quotes, but I can think of a few things that don't match.  Mesaana controls Elaida through Alviarin and is quite happy how things are going, though she thinks they might have to get rid of her at some point. OTOH, Cadsuane, in her thoughts, is completely furious about Elaida and all her actions and thinks she would skin her alive if she was in front of her. Cadsuane has reminescences of her past in the Tower, in Ghealdan and Far Madding that can't possibly be assigned to any of the Chosen.  There's also the scene where Cadsuane learns how to Travel and loses her countenance so much she is stunned about it. It's very doubtful that the Chosen don't know yet that Rand's Wise Ones can Travel just like they know the sisters in Salidar can, they have way too many spies around Rand to miss that.   For sure Mesaana could have faked not knowing how to weave Travelling, but why would she consider herself in the debt of Sorilea for it? Cadsuane clearly thinks that she is. When she allies herself with Sorilea to teach Rand to laugh again, she wonders if the Wise One shares the same goal that she has. Obviously, a Chosen wouldn't wonder about that - they know they have a radically different goal - and in fact the same is true for a BA sister as well. <br /><br />There's also the whole issue of the Warders. Cadsuane thinks of her former Warders, of why she doesn't take a new one and she thinks that she considered bonding Rand herself or to force Alanna to pass her the bond.  That rules her out being a Chosen altogether and almost rule her out being BA since no Chosen would allow a BA sister to bond Rand and gain favor in their place with the DO. <br /><br />Cadsuane also wonders if Rand can Travel.  No doubt all the Chosen know very well the answer to that question at that point.


created: 2003-01-03 15:23:47
subject: <b>NO!!!</b>
body:
The Black Ajah signal is described in &quot;Lord of Chaos&quot;, and it's pushing the thumbs hard between the middle fingers. NOT twiddling.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/clap.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lan.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/clap.gif" border="0" /><br />Nynaeve and Lan!<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-23 14:30:25
subject: <b>&quot;Vileness right after the Aiel War&quot;</b>
body:
I think the vileness right after the Aiel War refers to the Red Ajah gentling men who can channel withought taking them to Tar Valon (Like Owyn) it is mentioned in a discussion with on of the Red Sitters that that could ruin the Red Ajah.


created: 2007-06-29 12:33:00
subject: <b>-</b>
body:
I disagree; you are incorrect. It would simply not fit in with the plot.<br /><br />a) Cadsuane has quite the collection of ter' angreals not to mention perhaps an angreal (don't hold me to that part); this in turn confuses me because I feel confident that those tools would be highly desired by the Forsaken. <br />b) Cadsuane is practically a legend among the Aes Sedai, and has to this point been loyal (in her own way) to Rand and the battle against the DO.<br /><br />More than enough.


created: 2008-12-02 20:55:57
subject: <b>Vileness</b>
body:
Trying to sort out vileness from vileness is sort of like missing the forest for the trees. Somehow its all connected; The Reds gentling of men, the Blacks murder spree, and the death of Amyrlins. I always thought that Galina was a big driving force in most of it. If she didnt sit on the Blacks Supreme Council while Highest of the Red before it went down, she was promoted soon after. Also, (forgive my fuzziness) wasnt the unpleasantness in Far Madding from that period as well? Whatever it was, it linked Verin and Cadsuane during that time frame. I also believe Romanda was involved as well. (rule of threes?)


created: 2002-03-02 13:10:10
subject: <b>Wow, I never noticed that!</b>
body:
Hmm,<br />     I think your theory is pretty conclusive, especially with the quote by Aginor.  Aginor once killed over a hundred fades just to see how they disappeared into shadows.  So Aginor would know the truth.<br /><br />This is one of the best posts I've seen here in quite a while, Good Job.  But it still raises interesting questions:  Who is Shaidar Harnan, and how has he been free for so long?  <br /><br />If this Myrdraal really is SH, then it means that SH has been just about everywhere and is the greatest organizer of the D.O.<br />It also changes certain perceptions about the beginning books: for example that the shadow was trying to kill Rand from the very get-go.  In my opinion the shadow has not been trying to kill Rand at all, they have been trying to convert and use him the whole time.  This seems much more likely if SH has been around the whole time- cuz I always thought, since he first appeared in LoC, that he was one of the principle proponenets of the Let the LoC rule plan.<br /><br /><br />Poor Thom!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ADA- AlannaDawn Anonymous-- helping wotmaniacs recovering from their AlanndaDawn Addictions in a dynamic new 12-step program.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-02 14:35:29
subject: <b>Someone bought them a joke book in the last 3000yrs...</b>
body:
The previous Myrdraals were not Shadar Haran. Demandred shows his surprise at the size of the Fade, so surely Ingtar would also show surprise at the size as he has fought them before (even though he's a darkfriend). Bors was also the same height as the Fade in tDR in the fortress of the Light. The Halfmen seen were not Shaidar Haran.


created: 2002-03-02 15:45:51
subject: <b>Wierd.</b>
body:
I never knew that Myrdraal were such a jolly bunch. It's a cool idea, but unfortunately, as the post above me states, Shadar Haran's smile isn't the only unique thing about him; he's much bigger than a standard Myrdraal.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>Stories grow from everywhere, they&#8217;re like some hideous alien moss that can just sprout up.</i><br />--Joss Whedon<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-02 15:59:00
subject: <b>Height = Mask of Mirrors</b>
body:
If a mask can be woven of One Power, it certainly can be so of True Power.  That means it could have been Shaidar Haran in those stories.  But I still think he would have used his height to frighten, unless he didn't want to give the fact away that Myrddraal were changing.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Guy who likes to play basketball and wants sports in Randland other than sha'je <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br />Master player of stones <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gimli.gif" border="0" /><br />Generally a good guy <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-03 04:28:21
subject: <b>The Everlasting Fade</b>
body:
I think the two posts after the first one are to quick to rubbish the theory. After all Ingtar was a darkfriend (albeit a swing-vote one) and he may have already come across this new Myrddraal (S.H.), whilst letting his conspiritors into Fal Dara.<br /><br /><br />As for Demandreds surprise being an excuse to disregard the theory,  HA!!!   , the Forsaken, as we have seen, are in low favour with the Dark One, especially after Aginor's and Belthamel's bungling and subsequent deaths in the first book.<br /><br />It is entirely possible that Shaidar Haran was sent to deal with &quot;failures&quot; and clean up &quot;messes&quot; left by his high ranking minions.<br /><br /><br />As for the height issue, well. <br /><br />It's not as if a persons (or Myrddraal's) height cannot be tinkered with by using either forms of the power. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br />


created: 2002-03-03 07:41:25
subject: <b>Doesn't Measure Up</b>
body:
Your forgetting Shaidar Haran is unnaturaly tall for a fade I find it unlikely that no-one in the books found this odd also fades probably find killing and the like worth a grin but Shaidar Haran has more of a human type sense of humor.


created: 2002-03-03 08:57:42
subject: <b>NONONONONONONONO!!</b>
body:
Shaidar Haran's first appearance was in LoC. He did not use any power to make himself smaller; what would be the point? Rand also saw the suspect Fade in tGH and didn't show surpise (even though he may be uneducated in the Shadow), he's seen fades before, and Rand is certainly not a darkfriend. Shaidar Haran is no the kind of creature that's worried about what other people think of him. And as for the Forsaken being in low favour of the DO, I wouldn't say that Myrdraal are higher, they are just minions easily created. Shaidar Haran is one of a kind and the first time we see him is in LoC. Nuff sed.


created: 2002-03-03 12:32:01
subject: <b>I Agree</b>
body:
This makes sense, sounds like something RJ would throw at us.  Also, if our old friend SH was also the Fetch that attacked them at Whitebrige it would make sense.  The blue flashes could have been the True Power, seeing as the Myrddraal couldn't draw it's sword before Thom tackled him.  It would also explain why Thom's wound didn't kill him (as a Thakan'dar wound is fatal without Healing)...if it was just a Power wound it wouldn't have that effect.  And still more, it would make more sense for Thom to make it out alive...SH wouldn't care about a pithy gleeman when the Dragon was nigh, however any other Myrddraal would probably take a few extra minutes to tear him to pieces (I don't think the average Eyeless would take kindly to being knocked down by an old dude with knives).<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>Hi!  I'm Mat!  I'm just like Mat from the WoT...except I don't have that hat, medallion, sword-spear, and I can't speak the old tongue...although I did dance with one of the Forsaken once...</i><br /><br />-Mat <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-03 17:32:08
subject: <b>Ya, too short</b>
body:
I just finished re-reading TDR. I also had that idea that the Fade that came to see Bors was SH. Howeverm the passage reads: &quot;It was a man in form, no larger than most, but there the resemblance ended.&quot;<br /><br />As to the mask of mirrors thing, we know mydraal do have certain abilities, such as being able to &quot;ride shadows.&quot; We also know that in TDR, a mydraal gets a chill when Egwene starts to channel, just like male channelers do. However, there has been no other suggestion to indicate they can channel like normal channeling people do. Speaking of which, that is one more mydraal who seems to be going about in an orderly fashion and not just randomly killing people. Hummmmmmmm.<br /><br />My own thought is that maybe RJ developed SH from a compolation of these fades from the early books and later on and decided to make him larger than life once he gave him a name. Just my thought.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Pronounced: &quot;Rand was here&quot;<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shakefist.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-04 01:26:38
subject: <b>well I have read the replys, and I say great theory</b>
body:
most of the replies here don't really discuss the original theory&#8217;s points. Instead they come up with sightings from our inexperienced small town heroes. Rand is an expert in Myrdrall?! hardly, he has seen like what, 10? Tops? He can pick out the bigger and the smaller now? No. And, how much sense does it make, that a certain shadow spawn has been following them since book one? It makes 100% sense. This is just like the layers of the books that RJ talks of, it is just a new layer that has been discovered tonight. Sometimes I think you guys work so hard at disproving crap, you don't see good theory when it smacks you in the face and says &quot;listen to me&quot;. <br /><br />Well on that token, I could be wrong too, but the whole Aginore shocked at the smile, and all the other smiles Darth pointed out from pervious chapters, is just nail in the coffin for me, RJ had this guy stalking from book one, and put in subtle clue after clue, that&#8217;s all. <br /><br />GREAT THEORY, I put my money on it.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Why on earth would anybody want to kidnap a groundhog?&quot;<br /><br />&quot;I can think of a few reasons, the pervert!&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-04 01:43:33
subject: <b>wow...</b>
body:
...i love that theory.<br /><br />just a few comments against though.  alot of those incidences just don't seem like SH's style.  he's more of a behind the scenes type of guy - he'd rather manipulate those who are afraid of him as opposed to confronting the big bad Rand, putting his own existence in jeopardy.<br /><br />especially in the inn and with Ingtar.  i can't see him putting himself in that position, risking his own life, when he could just send a normal Fade to do the job.  they're intelligent enough and that's what they're for.<br /><br />and why does he no longer make these appearances after we've seen him introduced?  once SH is introduced, we don't see him talking to darkfriends (like Bors) anymore.  only the Chosen.  nor do we see him confronting Rand anymore.<br /><br />i just don't know.  i think this time, one of the Chosen may be wrong.  maybe fades can and do enjoy some things (ie killing those pesky kids).


created: 2002-03-04 02:22:15
subject: <b>Fade's don't have a sence of humor... but that doesn't mean they can't smile</b>
body:
Just because fades lack a sense of humor doesn't mean they don't smile... Do you smile only when you&#8217;re laughing?  Of course not; you smile when you're happy, when you get something you want, or when something goes your way...<br /><br />What seemed to stun the forsaken was that SH seemed to be smiling at something perversely funny.  Remember, AG wasn't reacting to the smile so much as the impossibility of a fade having a sense of humor.<br /><br />That said, it still is a good theory, and plausible too (especially the WB fade that Tom fought).  Besides, most of the time in those early books Rand was so frightened by fades i doubt he would have noticed if one was bigger than another... Don't forget that the one fade in Baerlon fled when he heard Lan coming, when a quick strike with his sword would have ended it all (was he there to kidnap Rand?).<br />


created: 2002-03-04 03:14:01
subject: <b>great</b>
body:
great point ingtar, humor is not the same as victory, but Jaren, SH would change his tune at the same time the DO did, when they started to let the lord of chaos rule, ergo, stop trying to kill Rand and start letting him rule/chaos. Your mention of books only says when this stuff came out.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Why on earth would anybody want to kidnap a groundhog?&quot;<br /><br />&quot;I can think of a few reasons, the pervert!&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-04 04:13:35
subject: <b>Certainly an enticing theory...</b>
body:
..but I'd have to say that it might be too much to expect of Shaidar Haran to have been all those Fades, and here's why:<br /><br />That Fade was working in collaboration with Ishamael, when he was pretending to be the Dark One. I doubt the real Dark One would have approved of that.<br /><br />We never saw any other indication that these other Fades were SH. Don't forget that SH is well above average height, even for a Fade, it seems he can use the True Power and he is usually in charge. He seems to be above most Forsaken, if not all.<br /><br />Also, Shaidar Haran can't stray far from Shayol Ghul for long. He would have had to travel from Shayol Ghul to Baerlon and Amador, and travel back again. While this might explain the disappearing act in Baerlon, it wouldn't explain why Shaidar Haran would be carrying out such menial tasks, when he could be organising the Forsaken as he did from LoC onwards. <br /><br />An explanation, even if Aginor knew about Myrdraal, he might not have taken natural evolution into account. After all, we have seen other genetic changes since AoL. Poisonous peaches and six-toed cats. Not a very satisfactory explanation, I'll agree, but it's the best I can come up with.<br /><br />Possibly, Myrdraal learned that smiling was a good way to scare Darkfriends. There is a difference in putting on a smile and having a sense of humor. Maybe, with Shaidar Haran, the smiles actually mean something.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="blue"><img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /> <b>PROUDLY CELEBRATING 10 YEARS OF WOTMANIA!</b></font> <img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /><br /><br /><font color="purple"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <b>FAQ and WoT Admin</b></font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><font color="gray"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> <b>Part-time Philosopher of the Wheel</b> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /></font></font><p><a href="/wotmessageboard2showmessage.asp?MessageID=107993" target="_blank">New WoT quizzes!</a></p><p></p>


created: 2002-03-04 11:55:41
subject: <b>Size matters</b>
body:
SH's first appearance was in LoC. Moridin has some sensible reasons why it's most likely not them which counters Windsor's enlightened arguement about Rand not being able to tell the difference between bigger and smaller...


created: 2002-03-04 13:14:23
subject: <b>Shaidar Haran</b>
body:
I have 3 ideas:<br /><br />1. SH used the TP to make a Mask of Mirrors. Like Mike, I hate it when the TP has to be an explanation for everything.<br /><br />2. RJ forgot. (Nooooooooooo!!!!!! *makes a cross with his fingers to ward off evil spirits and ideas that RJ isn't perfect in his memory of WoT<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/myrddraal.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />3. While Aginor was trapped in Shayol Ghul, Myrddraal evolved the ability to smile. They do come from Trollocs and humans, after all, which can both laugh and smile. This is a bit tenuous, I agree, but as Dr. Spok said in Star Trek VI, &quot;When you have eliminated the impossible, the remaining option, however unlikely, must be the truth&quot;. And no, I'm not a Trekkie - Star Trek VI is the only ST film with a number that I've ever seen.<br /><br />I have however, drawn one conclusion from this discussion: less than half of the Wotmania community can spell Myrddraal.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">You must chop down the tallest tree in the forest with... a herring!<br /><br /><br /><font face="courier new">l(a</font><br /><br /><font face="courier new">le</font><br /><font face="courier new">af</font><br /><font face="courier new">fa</font><br /><font face="courier new">ll</font><br /><br /><font face="courier new">s)</font><br /><font face="courier new">one</font><br /><font face="courier new">l</font><br /><br /><font face="courier new">iness</font><br /><br />F<font color="#111111">a</font><font color="#222222">d</font><font color="#333333">i</font><font color="#444444">n</font><font color="#555555">g</font><font color="#666666">o</font><font color="#777777">u</font><font color="#888888">t</font><font color="#999999">a</font><font color="#AAAAAA">n</font><font color="#BBBBBB">d</font><font color="#CCCCCC">n</font><font color="#DDDDDD">o</font><font color="#EEEEEE">w</font><font color="#FFFFFF">gone</font></font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-04 16:27:34
subject: <b>Cruelty vs. Humor</b>
body:
Hmmm... I like the theory a lot (I like wheels within wheels plots) but I don't think I agree with the conclusions.<br /><br />Fades can smile. They're cruel and like to kill. But that's smiles of bestial contentment at killing, it's different from having a sense of humor like Shaidar Haran. <br /><br />I guess Aginor was really surprised by the smile itself rather than the situation in which it happened, it was the humor of Shaidar Haran that puzzled him. Unless I'm mistaking, he's not the only one of the Chosen to have made that remark too. Wasn't Graendal visited by Cyndane, Moghedien and SH in tPoD thinking the same thing as Aginor?<br /><br />Cruelty smiles vs. humor-induced smiles. that still doesn't explain the laughs of Ishamael's Fade that visited Bors in Amadicia in TDR.  That could be an inconsistency, that's the only other laughing Fade, but I guess it's the kind of thing RJ would have amended in recent printings if the concept of SH wasn't fleshed out at the time he wrote TDR.<br /><br />That leaves four possibilities. <br /><br />- All the Fades have evolved naturally a sense of humor in the last 3000 years and some the Chosen just noticed it now while others who might have noticed it earlier kept it to themselves or are dead. <br /><br />- Ishamael/Moridin tampered with his Fades with help from the DO and kept these new characteristics secret from the other Chosen. <br /><br />- Shaidar Haran grew in size and wasn't as tall earlier on.<br /><br />- The DO has been experimenting with the Fades for some time in order to create the super myrddraal Shaidar Haran. They are no longer quite like the Chosen remember them to be.<br /><br />


created: 2002-03-04 22:03:40
subject: <b>I don't buy it</b>
body:
I think we are ignoring some facts about fades.  They are cruel.  Talking with several of the Borderlander's about prisoners, &quot;the fades need to have their fun&quot; referring to women.  Fain rode smashed in a cookpot for his failure.  The Fades smile at cruelty.  There is no humor involved.  They smile (I think) when they view pain or are anticipating causing pain.  Shaidar Haran can make cold jokes and laugh about them.


created: 2002-03-05 23:02:43
subject: <b>I agree and this is why</b>
body:
Well, I have to agree with Oz on this one.  Everyone has been bringing forth the size issue.  In truth, size doesn't matter (make your own joke).  I think everyone is taking for granted that we, as the reader, are omnipotent.  We know that Myrddraal are of one basic mold but that does not mean that that the residence of Randland know such a thing.  I doubt that any Randlander gives Myrddraals the scrutany that we, the readers, are allowed to do.  This may have some merrit, indeed.


created: 2002-03-06 21:46:37
subject: <b>But.........</b>
body:
Aginor is thinking that a Fade has no sense of humor, people smile grimly, not necessarily out of mirth.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><i><b>DARTH DRAGON</b></i> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><b><i>&quot;Truth begins as heresy.&quot;  </i></b><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-07 00:25:53
subject: <b>Great Job</b>
body:
I really like this theory.  I have to agree with the quotes that you took out of the different books.  It makes a lot of sense for the D.O. to send a COMPITENT denizen of evil to look after Rand and company.  So far out of all of the D.O.'s trusted villians, Shaidar Haran has succeeded the most, and seems the most capable to carry out the D.O.'s wishes.  Once again super job.<br /><br />Guaire Amalason<br />The most kick-ass False Dragon ever <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> =


created: 2002-03-07 16:00:22
subject: <b>More about size</b>
body:
I don't think the size issue matters.<br />S.H. could have gotten taller and more powerful as the series progressed, as the seals weakened, and as the DO became more powerful in the world.  <br />   I will resort to Aginor's POV as my belief in this theory.  As I mentioned before, Aginor once dissected over a hundred of these suckers, so I think he knows much more about them than anyone.  <br />   I just think it makes sense that the DO would want to have his 'hand' wherever the action is most important- or in all the places that the theory poster mentioned.<br /><br />Hmm, as for mirth, I think this is a good argument, but I still think the pattern of all the fades smiling is just too reminiscent of SH.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ADA- AlannaDawn Anonymous-- helping wotmaniacs recovering from their AlanndaDawn Addictions in a dynamic new 12-step program.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-07 18:56:10
subject: <b>I like, I like...</b>
body:
Good, well thought out theory. I tend to agree with some other posts here that SH's size COULD change. Like it is said, SH is a unique creature. It could possibly have additional powers to it's shadow walk and fear gaze. It may even be able to access the True Power. I suppose we just have to &quot;read, and find out&quot;.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="blue"><b>oddflow</b></font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/crazy.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-08 10:59:12
subject: <b>hmmm?</b>
body:
Shaidar Harn is very important to the series. I believe we will soon see him gather the largest army ever to fight Rand.Hmm? Perhaps this theory will help make my theory make sense. Thats if it gets posted


created: 2002-03-09 08:16:09
subject: <b>I love it!</b>
body:
Personally, I think this theory's absolutely perfect. And everyone who's complaining about SH's size, I think you should get over it. I mean, look at inverting weaves. Elayne and Nynaeve just discovered that technique in Book Six, (because Jordan probably just thought of it himself) and yet the Forsaken act as if they knew how to do it all along. If that were true, then in the beginning books the Forsaken would have whipped major ass. When Nynaeve was fighting Mog for the first time in Tanchico, Mog could have easily inverted her weaves and severed Nyn. Jordan is allowed to think up new ideas and slip them into later books. So if you take that into consideration, then Jordan could have wanted a powerful Myrdraal as a main bad guy and then later decided to spruce him up by making him bigger.<br /><br />I dun know if that made sense, but someone might eventually work it out <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">~ Tag ZERO<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" /> Worm <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /> Is that a sun, or a shuriken?<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> Spontaneous Combustion Man! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> I am not the Royal Jester. I am the Royal Fool!<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" /> WoT Women all sniff entirely too much <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /> All hail the Egorian Queen! .... King! King I say! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/disapprove.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-09 21:46:31
subject: <b>SH's height</b>
body:
I disagree. SH is noticeably taller than other fades, as they all look like they were poured from a mold. I'm sure someone would have noticed - especially the borderlanders or aiel, who have faced them b4.<br /><br />i could be wrong, but if the smile is mentioned why not the height.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Balefried<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-10 17:39:33
subject: <b>Shaidar Haran and Ishmael</b>
body:
I love your theory, i think it works perfectly, but while i was reading it i started thinking.  Well if everything in your theory holds true, and Shaidar Haran has truly been around since book 1, it would be most likely that he has been in the services of Ishmael.  Shaidar Haran was at the Darkfriend Social, and kept the darkfriends in order until Ba'alzamon appeared, thus implying he's in the service of Ishmael.  Also, Ishmael has been able to touch the world for quite a world, possibly has been able to since the seals were first placed on the Bore, according to Aran anyway.  Shaidar Haran has been around since almost before the Forsaken began making themselves known, and certainly before they got to power.  It would make sense for Ishmael to send his too-tall myrdraal out to do what he wished, since he himself could not touch the world physically yet.  Ishmael was certainly highest among the Forsaken before he died (else he probably would not have been able to call himself the Dark One without serious repercussions).  Moridin then comes around who turns out to be Ishmael brought back from the dead, and Shaidar Haran is in his service.  I think Shaidar Haran was merely taking over for Ishmael until he returned as Moridin.  Sorry I took up so much time just to explain that one sentence...<br /><br />Listranda<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-04-28 17:45:29
subject: <b>Shadar Haran...</b>
body:
You guys grasp at straws. I might not tell the difference between short and a bit taller, but SH is a LOT taller, even Rand would have noticed the difference between a 6' odd&quot; Myrrdraal and a 7' one. Its stupid. GET THIS JORDAN ISN'T PERFECT, GOOD, BUT NOT PERFECT.<br /><br />Example,<br />In TDR, when Perrin thinks Min has fallen for him, he says &quot;I never had a sister, but...&quot;, then 1 book later, Perin remembers his sisters with flowers in their hair when they died. If any Myrrdraal displayed a sense of humor befor LoC, it was merely a mistake. Even with this, all the Myrrdraal smiling was not at humor, as others have said. What was so funny in TEotW that the smiling Myrdraal was laughing about? It was a 'mean&quot; smile, not a humorous one. Geez, you people will overlook the obvious just to say something. Shadar Haran is new at LoC, end of story.


created: 2002-05-10 10:14:17
subject: <b>No it's wrong!</b>
body:
Hi, I'm new here!<br />The theorie is very nice but I think it's wrong. If SH was a character from the beginning why doesn't he meet the Forsaken before LoC and keep them in line? We know that the Forsaken are regular at SG.<br />And why is SH in such high regard? If he was all this Fades he often failed!<br />And by the way another question: If SH was created by someone why does he get sense of humor? What is the advantage of this? I mean SH becomes more human and can tell funny jokes but I don't see why this is useful for a superfade!


created: 2002-05-12 06:17:09
subject: <b>Fades might be changing</b>
body:
It might be evolution, Myrrddraal might be evolving towards something else than trollocs and humans, who know they might be able to channel soon


created: 2002-05-23 12:21:42
subject: <b>Cool</b>
body:
Great thoery. Though i don't think the others were Haran because they were never described as tall and Haran is very tall. Maybe its showing an evolution of the Fades.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/seanchan.gif" border="0" /> Dragons Wriath <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /><br />   &quot;And can you by no drift of circumstances<br />   Get from him why he puts on this confusion<br />   Grating so harshly all his days of quiet<br />   With turbulant and dangerous lunacy&quot; - Hamlit</font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-01 04:26:36
subject: <b>pick me</b>
body:
I've solved it, SH is actually Taimandred. the whole smiling thing gives him away, HA HA HA<br /><br />(This was Taimandred joke #3754)<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sammy.gif" border="0" />Taimandred jokes, just say no<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sammy.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-06-15 21:59:24
subject: <b>SH something else.....</b>
body:
I have read elsewhere a theory stating that the Fade who visited Carridin in TSR was actually one of the Chosen in disguise, and i agree with this.  I also think SH is something special, and something new.<br /> It occurred to me just now, that if the soul of a man can be put into the body of a woman, then why not into the body of a Myrrdraal??  What if SH is Ishy reincarnated, and MOridin is someone else? J/K, but SH could be anyone, but it seems probable the DO has become tired of his agents stuffing up, and wanted an agent he could really trust.  Howevr, the one POV we have from SH casts doubts on this.  Finally, what evidence has there been of SH using the OP?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /> Baphomet 23 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br />Give me the strength to change the things I can, the grace to accept the things I cannot, and a great big bag of money.<br /><br />My online gallery:<br />http://daveb23.deviantart.com/gallery/<br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-10 23:39:11
subject: <b>Maybe Ingtar created Shadar Haran.... sort of...</b>
body:
I agree that Shadar Haran could be the &quot;smiling&quot; fade discussed in this theory.  He is apparently not as important, as vocal, or as large as he is by LOC; however.  Perhaps Ingtar did dispatch the original &quot;Shadar&quot; and the DO was so pleased with his conduct he issued Shadar Haran a new body and a higher status, much like Moridin.


created: 2002-08-16 13:29:14
subject: <b>Great Theory...but..</b>
body:
I think that this is a great theory, but the fact that some mythraddal smiled in other books is not enough support for your theory. I still think it is a great theory and maybe true. <br /><br />And who cares what height he was... maybe he had a growth spurt before LoC.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former.&quot; <br />- Albert Einstein<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-11-03 16:03:59
subject: <b>I agree</b>
body:
This makes sense because we know that the myrddraal in Baerlon was not killed. The one in Fal Dara was not killed. That one had defeated seven armed Shinearan soldiers. If Lan could kill a Fade one-on-one, then surely seven skilled soldiers could...but Saidar Haran is not a normal Myrddraal! Also...in tEoTW when Narg tells Rand that the myrddraal wants to talk to him...what myrddraal would want to do that? Maybe SH would...? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/myrddraal.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Jaszia K'Tinarth <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/avi.gif" border="0" /> <br />Aes Sedai of the Green Ajah <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br />Lover of warders <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lan.gif" border="0" /> <br />Omnipotent Queen of the world <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-11-04 15:35:03
subject: <b>it's wrong</b>
body:
in the prolouge of the grate hunt the myddraal is trambling in fere for baalzamon witch i have a hard time beliving that shaidar haran would have done


created: 2003-01-02 14:59:07
subject: <b>Shadar Haran</b>
body:
1. I think Shadar Haran is just there to add a more powerful foe to the scene. Myddral no longer appear to be a true threat. Everyone can easily dispose of a Myddral now. I think RJ just wanted to give the Myddral back some of its scariness. Think about Rand is killing all of the Forsaken now. He is killing them for good with Bale Fire. RJ may just want to add a more formidable foe for Rand to face. Remmber Rand wouldn't be able to channel arround him.<br />2. Shadar Haran serves Moridin. He is his right hand.<br />Moridin is the top guy in charge. He has always been the DO sarogate. He has always been the one to face Rand/Lews Therin fo the Do. Rand is for the creator and Moridin is for the DO.<br />


created: 2003-02-19 09:41:33
subject: <b>Fade from Fal Dara</b>
body:
I like this theory and it would be great if it is true, however, the Fade from Fal Dara that Ingtat was unable to kill in the Great Hunt, didn't that leave with Fain's party like the trollocs? If so didn't he end up nailed to the door or something in a village?<br /><br />I'm pretty certain that the Fade In Fal Dara is not Shadar Haran.<br />


created: 2003-03-19 12:03:27
subject: <b>Re: Fade from Fal Dara</b>
body:
But do we know for SURE that that fade left with Fain? No, we don't. He could have been rescued by a myrddraal, and ran away with that one, all the while Shadar Haran runs away to report.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ph33r d4 133t! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />ph33r m4 4ut|-|ority! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-04-06 07:12:55
subject: <b>Hey, can his smile &quot;Touch his eyes?&quot;</b>
body:
Every body in WoT smiles at times when they don't mean it, and according to the PoV character, the smile &quot;never touched his eyes.&quot;  That's how you know it isn't a sincere smile.  So, how do we know whether or not Shaidar Haran is sincere in his smiling?  We can't see if it touches his eyes or not.<br /><br />Seriously, we are probably going to find out eventually what Shaidar Haran's deal is; this isn't something we can theoretically spot from clues, like Asmodean's killer.  Jordan will tell us if only to impress us with his creativity.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


created: 2003-09-10 10:40:07
subject: <b>good theory...</b>
body:
I think this theory is good, although i'm not so sure I agree yet.- The main point against it is that RJ made a big deal of SH's intro into LOC. Everyone (Chosen especially) was surprized by the Fade. I think if he really was around since EOTW the Chosen would have known.- As far as what's going on with the previous Fades smiling...well RJ CAN be suttle in his hints (or he could have overlooked it...hey he is human). If it truly is him I would once again be wow'd by RJ's mind <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />


created: 2003-12-11 07:22:11
subject: <b>I</b>
body:
like it.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Red vs. Blue<br />&quot;Sorry It's pretty clear your not very popular around here and if I'm going to make any progress at all I cant be directly associated with you I'm sure you understand.&quot; Doc to Griff then Griff to Doc</font><p></p>


created: 2004-02-05 15:05:49
subject: <b>could be...</b>
body:
Much as I don't like to say this, not everything in the books has to be perfect. RJ is only human, and he may not have noticed all the smiling going on, or just thought it looked sinister. All authors make mistakes. Of course, he may have planted those there on purpose. Or maybe he didn't. And whoever said that SH has a more human sense of humour is right. He's not a normal fade, is SH.


created: 2004-02-26 13:42:18
subject: <b>Shadar Haran and Ishamel revisited</b>
body:
As icegirl30327 points out earlier SH probably has been in Ishamels service if he indeed is the other smiling myrddraals.  SH has then always been a &quot;special&quot; myrddraal trusted in running ishamels more sensitive errands, checking up on Rand and talking to darkfriends etc so that everything is proceeding as planned (eg. not killing Rand but turn him over to the dark side..). Ishamel is given this special servant since he is the DOs most trusted servent and being the only way for the DO to really influence the world at this point. But after Ishamels &quot;death&quot; and rebirth as moridin and him then being Nae'blis, SH also has been given greater power and thus also grown in size.. Moridin is the DOs avatar and since SH is moridins right hand he is also DOs right hand. He has not appeard any more in proximity ro rand since moridin not need him to check up on rand any more, and his new power makes him more usable in the watchdog theory posted by Olu..<br /><br />hmm.. hope this makes sense the words doesnt sound as convincing as those in my head that I cant get out.. =)<br />


created: 2005-05-21 14:25:12
subject: <b>size difference</b>
body:
Some people seem to think that the characters would notice the size of SH. I think that he has only become big as the DO gets more released from his prison, which sorta ties in with all the avator theories.


created: 2005-06-08 08:35:39
subject: <b>i have to disagree</b>
body:
in ACoS, Spears: SH is spying on Sammael and Graendal when he feels the pull of being too long away from SG. if your theory is correct then near the beginning of the DO power-gain SH is hopping all over the place without any due concern<br /><br />i just don't buy it<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">idealism not pragmatism</font><p></p>


created: 2005-09-01 15:29:51
subject: <b>A direct answer</b>
body:
An answer to these questions by RJ himself:<br /><br />Question:<br /><br />Was the Fade who visited Jaichim Carridin in the Prologue of The Dragon Reborn an early version of Shaidar Haran? Its response that it likes to keep an eye on 'all who serve me' and its apparent sense of humour are behaviour atypical of a Fade.<br /><br />Robert Jordan Answers:<br /><br />I was wondering who would spot that. Shadar Haran Version 0.5! The Dark One doesn't get it spot on the first time every time.<br /><br />full list of questions and answers here:<br /><br />http://www.tor.com/jordan/questions.html<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Reality for mingling dreams to scurry back and get in line.</font><p></p>


created: 2007-03-26 13:27:20
subject: <b>Note on Size</b>
body:
In the prologue of book 3- Fortress of the Light the Fade that met Bors was not Shaidar Haran<br /><br />&quot;It was a man in form, no larger than most, but there the resemblance ended.&quot;<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Alea iacta est<br /><br />Dovie'andi se tovya sagain</font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-04 14:18:39
subject: <b>Exactly!!!</b>
body:
Just what I was about to say... <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/blush.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-03-04 15:29:58
subject: <b>Well thought-out theory....</b>
body:
There is not a lot to say about it, really, except that your emphasis on Carl Jung's psychology is surprisingly relevant in some areas, yet not so much in others.  You touch on the fact that Rand will die, yet you fail to touch on Jung's psychological determination that &quot;fear of death&quot; is a most prevalent psychological impetus.  If Jung's theory is correct, Rand would act in a way to avoid death, correct?  However, this would fail to be relevant in RJ's world.  The characters in the story have quite a bit more information on death and what happens when somebody dies.  The unknown plays a very substantial role in Jung's theory, rendering Jung's psychology not wholly relevant to the novels.<br /><br />However, I have nothing but admiration for analogical thinking.  Good theory.<br /><br />One small point...Carl Jung, while being a genius, did not &quot;coin&quot; the word anima.  That would be difficult to do since &quot;anima&quot; is the Greek word for soul, life-force, pure spirit, etc.  Like most Greek words, it does not translate exactly. Jung picked up on the phrase from Aristotle's Ethics and Plato's dialogues, among others, due to the liberal usage of the term in all early philosophy.<br /><br />Dedric, the Philosopher


created: 2002-03-04 17:10:15
subject: <b>My name has sigificant meaning????</b>
body:
I didn't plan this.  Um, I don't understand everything, but it sounds really intelligent.<br /><br />My name has significant meaning in WoT?  I just picked it out of my slew of character names from my books I write.  Way wicked cool!!!!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Anima Sedai <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br />Keeper of the Chronicles for the Green Ajah <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Married to the Dark One<br />Mother of the Dark One's Naeblis</font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-04 17:48:51
subject: <b>Interesting tid-bit...</b>
body:
Freud and Jung were the two greatest pioneers in psychological theory, and both lived during the same era in the early 1900's.  While both contributed greatly to the advancement of psychology, they disagreed on one substantial point.  Each man agreed that there existed an emotive drive behind all action, yet they did not agree on the nature of this emotive drive.  <br /><br />Freud asserted that this primary subconcious emotive drive was sex.  Well, basically. (In layman's terms)  Everything could be explained with sex as the impetus for action.  <br /><br />Jung thought differently, and asserted that the fear of death was the subconcious drive that ruled all others.<br /><br />Ironically, Freud with all of his emphasis on sex ended up sleeping with Jung's wife.  <br /><br />


created: 2002-03-04 19:09:42
subject: <b>Not bad...</b>
body:
Dedric,&quot;anima&quot; is Latin, not Greek but other than that a very well stated counter.<br /><br />...and, I might add, rather amusing (that last part).<br /><br />Ciel, the Baerlon Maid<br />doesn't need any titles or smileys<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Ciel, the Baerlon Maid<br />doesn't need any titles or smileys</font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-04 19:45:30
subject: <b>So......</b>
body:
Is Anima Sedai neccessary for life. If so I'll give her all my points if she spares me.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">MoelBrain: The other MB</font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-04 20:06:41
subject: <b>Considers changing name to &quot;Three In A Boat Oh And Nynaeve Too&quot;</b>
body:
&quot;PS. I am wary of strong masculine biases and interpretation in this post. Ironically, it is possible that the journey here described needs to be modified considerably to apply to the female perspective.&quot;<br /><br />I agree, it just wasn't pink enough.<br /><br />::runs::


created: 2002-03-05 11:01:41
subject: <b>The Basis of the Theory is Good but I Don't Agree</b>
body:
Jung's ideas were based on myth and religion and I think that this theory, while grounded in concepts very relevant to the Wheel of Time, is confusing Robert Jordan's world needlessly by taking the psychological analysis of world myths and implying that Jordan is using such analysis, as opposed to the underlying myths, as his driving force.<br /><br />Don't get me wrong; I would heartily agree that the universal appeal of such religious stories is due in no small part to its psychological underpinnings.<br /><br />This topic has been touched on before in the Theory Post, when a previous poster (I'm sorry, I forget who) mentioned that Rand would have to let his lower soul die in order for his higher soul to live.  I'm not sure if the author of this theory is familiar with the alchemical and mystical terms that Jung was using, so I'll VERY briefly explain the philosophy of Western mysticism: people are made up of a body, soul and spirit.  The spirit is the rational, higher self that is eternal, and the soul is a mortal nonmaterial entity that connects the spirit to the body.  The alchemical analogy is the egg: the shell is the body, the yellow is the spirit, and the soul is the white that lets the yellow bob around within the shell.  Of the three, only the yellow has the potential to develop farther.<br /><br />The concept is in many belief systems: in Hebrew we have the Nephesh and the Ruach, in Arabic this is Nafs and Rukh, in Greek psyche and pneuma, and in Latin anima and spiritus.  Freud took the system to have the body be the id, the &quot;soul&quot; the ego and the &quot;spirit&quot; the superego (note that in Hebrew and Arabic, Nephesh and Nafs, respectively, can also mean ego or personality).  Jung took this system and adapted it.  The anima is not the higher force, it is merely the subconscious foil to the conscious self.  It is the psyche's buried self.<br /><br />The death-and-rebirth analysis is really about killing the desires of the ego (nephesh, nafs, psyche, anima) so that the spirit will govern the body and soul and lead to the enlightenment of the individual.  Jung's mistake was to get caught up in anima symbolism.  It was as though the psyche is an iceberg, and Jung somehow thought the submerged portion was made of something different than the exposed tip.<br /><br />What this is all leading to is my conclusion that to introduce Jungian analysis to Wheel of Time not only goes much farther than Jordan intended, but also leads to erroneous conclusions.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Annoying wotmaniacs for 10 years.<br /><br />Oh, I don't have time for this. I have to go and buy a single piece of fruit with a coupon and then return it, making people wait behind me while I complain. - Prof. Farnsworth<br /> <br /><b>The Voice of Lews Therin</b><br /><br /></font><p><a href="http://www.waronterrortheboardgame.com/" target="_blank">Find out what WOT really means...</a></p><p></p>


created: 2002-03-05 12:37:54
subject: <b>that's right...</b>
body:
Anima is latin.  Good observation, Ciel.  i was thinking of Aristotle's &quot;De Anima&quot; when I wrote that last statement, and after all, Aristotle was a Greek.  Damn Latin translation...


created: 2002-03-14 06:13:32
subject: <b>Impetus and coining</b>
body:
Dedric:<br /><br />* Emphasis Jung placed on impetus eclipsed by content I included. Let's not try to out esoteric knowledge each other. I don't want to.<br /><br />* I didn't say he coined the word, which indeed is Latin. I said term. You know by now what I meant.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>aerocontrols has already posted this</i><br /><br />This post was funded by Hamas.<br /><br />http://www.seanet.com/~billr/xbs/DontdisElisha.htm</font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-13 02:38:31
subject: <b>Extremely Interesting.</b>
body:
I find your points about the trinity of women, and the oneness of the trinity in Nynaeve, very interesting. But why, then, didn't Rand get Nynaeve? Maybe because Jordan wanted to show the fragmentation of Rand's psyche with the 3 women??<br /><br />And please clarify what each woman in the trinity represents.<br /><br />Also, I like your theory of the Dragon as a dying/resurrecting God figure. He IS a messiah (Christian/pagan-speaking). This is apparent even in The Great Hunt. Definitely good ideas in here, maybe enough for an academic essay!!<br /><br />-Rivka <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-03-04 16:21:18
subject: <b>Nice. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /></b>
body:
I enjoyed this theory more than the prior one. I'll admit that is mostly because it is that much less technical. However, well done, and I can't wait to see the others.


created: 2002-03-04 19:44:14
subject: <b>Really well done.</b>
body:
This essay-thory trend is interesting.<br /><br />You point out that Rand has become a sort of Shadar Logoth, hardening his heart to fight the Shadow. However, at the end of WH, Shadar Logoth was destroyed. Symbolic foreshadowing?<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>Stories grow from everywhere, they&#8217;re like some hideous alien moss that can just sprout up.</i><br />--Joss Whedon<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-04 19:49:37
subject: <b>Are you saying Dragon........</b>
body:
that Fain(the remants of Shadar Logoth) will cause Rand's destruction, or will the wounds, corrupt with amazing evil do it. Or will he learn that the DO absorbed the evils from Logoth. Wait. I'm confused.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">MoelBrain: The other MB</font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-04 20:23:50
subject: <b>Please believe me</b>
body:
when I say that I don't mean any insult to the work you've put into the theory, but it's really not telling us anything new. Well, that's probably not the best way of putting it, it's telling us plenty of new things, it's not however a new theory. You can easily discern the basis of the theory just from reading the books, but I did enjoy your far more detailed explanation.<br /><br />Then again, perhaps I'm just over estimating the intelligence of the average Wheel of Time reader.


created: 2002-03-04 21:25:27
subject: <b>If I followed correctly</b>
body:
all your really saying is that Rand must conciously accept his emotions as good things, not detrimental to his fight with the dark one. If he doesn't then he becomes another shadar logoth/Ahab/Tyrant King. I personally think this will go down in the next book, and good point the guy above me with teh destruction of Shadar Logoth as a foreshadowing of the destruction of Rands shadar logoth properties. I must say that I can only hope that someday I have at my command all the literary, mythical, and historical references you made. I am stil trying to retreive my jaw from where it fell. Just can't reach it as much as I stretch.


created: 2002-03-04 21:49:50
subject: <b>Because I'd hate to think</b>
body:
Three in a Boat doubted my intelligence I will add that this idea was pretty apparent and has been around awhile. But never before have I seen it said with such intelligence. I would also like to add that it adds many literary and mythological sourses not previously seen. Ahab, the Tyrant King concept with appropriate examples, Jung all add significance and meaning.


created: 2002-03-05 01:28:57
subject: <b>I like that</b>
body:
you used Raistlin Majere from Weis and Hickmans Dragonlance Saga.  When talking about good fantasy, people never seem to mention them near the top.  This isn't really relevent to the rest of the theory, but I enjoyed seeing one of my favorite charactors mentioned.


created: 2002-03-05 09:58:12
subject: <b>Been a while since DragonLance</b>
body:
***MAY CONTAIN SPOILERS FOR DRAGONLANCE*****<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br />But didn't Raislin pretty much do everything to further his own ends. He did end up wearing black, after all. And wasn't he Deified?<br />And to the above (please don't take this as a personal affront, just my opinion) <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" />  I'd consider DragonLance more of Pulp fantasy than &quot;good&quot; fantasy.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" />  It's entertaining, but I was never really drawn into the series with the gotta-get-the-next-book feel that I get from WoT. And yeah, I did play RPGs when I was reading Dragons of this and that. But the characters just never grew on me. <br /><br />Peace.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Long Live Taimandred! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sammy.gif" border="0" /><br />Cybrmnk <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gandalf.gif" border="0" /> -One of the last remaining believers in the Taimandred theory.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-05 11:25:06
subject: <b>Keep the Faith...</b>
body:
Rand is not as close to Tyrant as you suggest. Oh, he's getting there, and if left alone, he'll soon 'do a Shadar Logoth' but he's bonded to some very determined women. Now I don't like Elayne and Aviendha, but that doesn't mean that they are't going to be good for him. And Elayne is PREGNANT, a softening influence on any man. Min's influence is already apparent, she's a poke-nose, exactly what he needs. The Lord alone knows what Allanna is gonna do. Plus you have Cadsuane rolling up her sleeves to beat a few tears out of him...when he finds Moirraine he will be eased of another burden...and even now his 'hardness' falters, despite his best efforts at maintaining it.<br />Like I told someone else, i wouldn't worry. He'll be given a few hard knocks, but he's strong, he'll get through.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" />Karlaan <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/myrddraal.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-19 08:05:00
subject: <b>These theories might come in handy later</b>
body:
THe whole point of discerning a pattern or precedent in a story as this author did, is that it can help to understand the hows and whys and put consequent events in a context with other events.  Some responders seem to think all this theory does is restate things already said in the books, but actually, I had never really got Cadsunae's declaration that if Rand keeps on the way he is going, his victory at Tarmon Gaidon could be as bad as his defeat.  I liked how this theory draws a parallel of Shadar Logoth, especially as Rand himself has noted, Shadar Logoth has been a catalyst for so many key events in the series and the characters' development (set Mat on the road to his memories, which seem like they'll play a part in his marriage to Tuon; separate Perrin to meet the 'intermediary' Elyas Machera, who introduces him to the wolves; the cleansing of the Taint; Rand's 'abandonment' of Liah &amp; battle w/ Sammael)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


created: 2003-11-12 21:30:45
subject: <b>What an excellant theory.</b>
body:
The importance of Cadsuane and Sorilea are pointed up beautifully.<br /><br />I, too, see the necessity of Rand spilling his blood after crushing the Seals.    <br /><br />After CoT, he is well on his way to make his journey, after which, his world will complete the great battle.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-05 11:16:07
subject: <b>Nice work, but...</b>
body:
You've done your research, and I do agree, but... so? That Rand represents most of this is already apparent in the books, if you read with an eye towards a career in Psychoanalysis.<br />So.. I agree, but I wouldn't worry about it too much, if I were you.<br />P.S. Are you studying History, or is this just a hobby? Either way, shake hands!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" />Karlaan <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/myrddraal.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-05 12:59:36
subject: <b>I've got your LONG WANG right here!</b>
body:
Just kidding, Nice theory.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> AOBtD <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />It`s frustrating when you know all the answers, but nobody bothers to ask you the questions.<br /><br />Never be afraid to try something new. Remember, amateurs built the ark. Professionals built the Titanic.<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-05 13:02:45
subject: <b>Heh</b>
body:
Yes, as I said in the other theory, as interesting as I find all this (and it really does fascinate me), it's not really a theory. Unless the theory is that Jordan has drawn from the same place you have.


created: 2002-03-05 13:34:44
subject: <b>i agree...</b>
body:
it is just not really a theory; it's more like a thesis.  However, I must say that you have quite a comprehensive understanding of the references you use.  That's something, at least.<br /><br />I have also been guilty of being too obscure.  It's better than being trite, I guess, yet falls short of being practical.<br /><br />If you want some brain exercise, try comparing Plato's forms with the idea of a transcendant Creator and Anti-creator, with the focus being the absence of their actual presence in what we know to be reality, realizing that the true essence of each necessarily transcends their representation.<br /><br />Or...<br />How about just watching some T.V.


created: 2002-03-05 15:13:18
subject: <b>yeah</b>
body:
Do you look for all of this stuff as you read, or is it all hindsite?  If you look for it as you read, how do you get any enjoyment out of it???<br /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> Wolfbrother <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-03-05 15:30:18
subject: <b>as I see it...</b>
body:
I think the point of all that was that Rand is going to turn into a giant dragon at the end of the series.  He'll eat the Dark One and start flying around burning stuff, thinking he's all powerful.  Then the Creator will slap him down and imprison him, making Rand the next Dark One.  A great theory post if you ask me...


created: 2002-03-05 17:36:15
subject: <b>Could it be???</b>
body:
the thing is, you dont really know. jordan could have just called rand a &quot;dragon&quot; bacause he likes dragons... maybe he didnt consider all these mythological stories...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" />Ervs Ironfist<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /><br />-escape is not an option <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /><br />&quot;The only thing I know is that i know nothing&quot;-Socrates <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/thom.gif" border="0" /> <br />&quot;We stand alone&quot;-Pantera</font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-05 18:23:23
subject: <b>if it is...</b>
body:
If my last post is right, everyone on here owes me a dollar.  I think you guys should be able to accept that.


created: 2002-03-05 18:32:06
subject: <b>Some actual critique of the theory</b>
body:
While everybody has been posting their opinion of the theory, I think some actual criticism of the information contained in the theory should be stated.<br /><br />I think that Durandir's motives behind these theories were perhaps not explanatory in nature.  It appears to me that these theories are, if anything, merely meant to be provocative, which was my original complaint.  However, if we take them to be a theory, some interesting predictions arise as far as plotline is concerned.  If Rand is a dual archetype, a blend of Christ and Satan, then the last internal struggle would involve a battle between Humility and Pride (Humility is always symbolic of Christ, and as Durandir stated, Hubris or pride is symbolic of Satan).  <br /><br />Anybody who reads Nietzsche is familiar with &quot;slave morality vs. master morality&quot;, and would understand that humility as a virtue is contributed to slave morality, while pride was a virtue in master morality.  However, while pride is a vice in slave morality, humility is not necessarily a vice in master morality.  <br /><br />It's kind of difficult to explain without writing another thesis-looking theory.  Virtuous men in master morality exhibited excellence as human beings, being successful in all areas of human activity.  However, a humble man was not considered unvirtuous, he was merely dominated.  Actually, virtue completely changed its meaning with the dawn of Christianity.  In other words, unlike today, the greater the success a man had during the rule of &quot;master morality&quot;, the greater the virtue.  Therefore, what if RJ was a &quot;master moralist&quot;, or better yet, what if he was an Ayn Rand objectivist, where the one virtue of man is success above all else.  Perhaps then Rand's internal struggle would not be humility vs. pride, but would be self doubt vs. will to power.  (Again, Nietzsche)  <br /><br />My point (do I have a point?) is that it is possible to analyze the series from one point of view and draw conclusions, and then draw separate conclusions from another point of view.  I think these theories of Durandir would have had more merit if he had discussed how he thought these Jungian ideas would contribute to the developments of Rand's plotline, perhaps how the last battle will be affected because of this.  Instead, it appears that the theory contains only lateral thinking and analogies, albeit very impressive lateral thinking and analogies.<br /><br />Also, one point of contention...<br />RJ has stated that he wanted to write a story about what it would be like if somebody &quot;tapped you on the shoulder and told you that you had to save the world.&quot;  This sounds like he is taking the archetype of a more human type of hero, one that is an average joe with an unbelievable job to do.  I don't see any room for a Satan archetype at all.  If anything, he is just playing on the human psychology of this situation, one that is grounded in realism.  <br />


created: 2002-03-05 20:31:46
subject: <b>K.I.S.S.</b>
body:
For those who don't know, that means Keep it simple.  <br />I think the theories are great, even if they have an essay feel to them.  The problem with these posts lies with the fact that people like to KISS.<br /><br />So, it might have been easier to understand had the author of the theories just said something like:<br /><br />Robert Jordan is once again using his vast knowledge of mythology and symbolism by using &quot;the Dragon&quot;, and then explaining what the dragon means.  <br /><br />(People who don't know diddly about Jung don't get all of the &quot;Jungisms&quot;.  Wait! Isn't he that guy that...?)  <br /><br />However, I do think that for most of us who are rereading the books, these theories give us even more insight to possibilities behind the plotline and further remind us of Jordan's ability to utilize his own store of knowledge in weaving such a great tale.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /> Queen of her own castle and ruler of none <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> Shameless member of the Babefest '90 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-07 13:49:30
subject: <b>Just a stray thought</b>
body:
I was about to say something very insightful, but I completely forgot what I was going to say.<br />Didn't Nietsche die of syphillis?


created: 2002-03-07 16:18:43
subject: <b>Yes He Did</b>
body:
Nietzsche died of syphilis at a sanatarium in Weimar.  Of course, the poor man had his problems, what with growing up in a household dominated by women and confusing Wagner's wife with his own.<br /><br />Jung was influenced by Nietzsche.  After all, they were both Classicists to a certain degree (for those of you who didn't know, Nietzsche's &quot;real job&quot; was initially in the sphere of Greek and Latin Studies, and he translated a LOT of Greek into German).  <br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Annoying wotmaniacs for 10 years.<br /><br />Oh, I don't have time for this. I have to go and buy a single piece of fruit with a coupon and then return it, making people wait behind me while I complain. - Prof. Farnsworth<br /> <br /><b>The Voice of Lews Therin</b><br /><br /></font><p><a href="http://www.waronterrortheboardgame.com/" target="_blank">Find out what WOT really means...</a></p><p></p>


created: 2002-03-14 06:10:29
subject: <b>Conscious influence</b>
body:
It is obvious Jordan has made 'the Dragon' in The Wheel of Time a symbol of two opposites: destruction and creation. Rand is destined to save the world, and destroy it, yada yada. Perhaps, I was contending, this was facilitated by the dragon's physical make-up and the psychological effect, conscious or unconscious, this has in symbolism.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>aerocontrols has already posted this</i><br /><br />This post was funded by Hamas.<br /><br />http://www.seanet.com/~billr/xbs/DontdisElisha.htm</font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-25 05:19:07
subject: <b>Dedric vs. Durandir</b>
body:
in a steel cage!<br /><br />Barring that, maybe wotmania should schedule them to be in a chatroom for a series of debates on topics like this one. Log them, summarize them, and post them in the FAQ or an even more relevant section. Three in a Boat is another person who could participate.<br /><br />Such great work on the series needs to be encouraged, and also made more visible than in the Blackboard of some random theory I only found by refreshing the main page twice.<br /><br />Congrats to the both of them!


created: 2002-06-27 21:49:49
subject: <b>COMBINATIONS! ! !</b>
body:
I find it rather interesting how Jordan decided to combine the bad and the evil but a viewing that Min had suggests<br />that there will be a struggle between Lews Therin Telamon and Rand al'Thor at some point in the future and that<br />only one of them would survive.  I think will probably occur at the Last Battle and it will be at that point that Satan/evil<br />will be destroyed once and for all, but there will be a lot of destruction along the way because whenever good and <br />evil clashes, the sparks destroy everything around it.  But, I believe good will prevail, Lews Therin will die(thus the <br />blood of the dragon will be spilt on the rocks of Shayol Ghul), and Rand will rule peacefully with a new generation<br />of people who will strive to make the world a better place and not put themselves upon a higher order, like what <br />happens in their version of polotics(hopefully).  I mean, what would the Last Battle be like without Lews Therin?<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/egwene.gif" border="0" />  Lucienne Sedai Purple <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/egwene.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-purple.gif" border="0" /> Still Awaiting The Creation Of The Purple Ajah <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-purple.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-10-01 15:25:18
subject: <b>Can Evil be destroyed?</b>
body:
I think a real question is, can evil be destroyed? How can good exist without evil? Life is defined by opposites; we know what something is by knowing what something is not. How can we call something good if we don't have an evil to compare it to? So I feel that evil cannot be completely destroyed. So therefore, the Dark One will always exist, as will the Creator. Even if the D.O. breaks free from his prison, the Creator will still exist, if the Creator is destroyed, then the Dark One would no longer be the Dark One, there would be no &quot;Light One&quot; (Creator) to oppose and define him.


created: 2002-12-13 18:23:21
subject: <b>history</b>
body:
Thanks for the history lesson<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> I know my name<br />is spelt wrong but<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> the wheel weaves<br />as the wheel wills <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> to speak ill of The Wheel Of Time is blasphemy, walk in the light <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-10-25 17:23:48
subject: <b>Just a small note on the dragon's appearance</b>
body:
As has been stated, dragons are good in the East and bad in the West.  They also look different, the Eastern dragans look like the dragon banner, while those of the West look like the raikin(sp?) of the Seachan.


created: 2002-03-05 11:11:07
subject: <b>I don't understand...</b>
body:
So what's the point?<br />Neat theory, though.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" />Karlaan <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/myrddraal.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-05 11:29:53
subject: <b>Give Me My Barf Bag</b>
body:
I've just read four of these theories and I have the same criticism to every single one of them.  Simply put: Robert Jordan is not writing a Carl Jung-inspired opus.  The Wheel of Time is not his Master's Thesis on Hero Symbolism a la Joseph Campbell.  Durandir is applying a purportedly Jungian analysis to Robert Jordan because Jordan draws on the same symbols that Jung drew on when he wrote on archetypes of the unconscious mind.  It's just not relevant.<br /><br />It's also needlessly maudlin: &quot;I hope this contribution indicates the significance of opposites in Jordan's work and inspires others to find answers to the questions I can only ask.&quot;  &quot;Contribution&quot;?  Has this Theory Post gone from being a collection of fans who speculate about a series of books to the faculty of the Augustissima Universitas Roberti Iordannes debating the metaphysical significance of the books' deep psychological impact on our lives?  Excuse me if I have to vomit.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Annoying wotmaniacs for 10 years.<br /><br />Oh, I don't have time for this. I have to go and buy a single piece of fruit with a coupon and then return it, making people wait behind me while I complain. - Prof. Farnsworth<br /> <br /><b>The Voice of Lews Therin</b><br /><br /></font><p><a href="http://www.waronterrortheboardgame.com/" target="_blank">Find out what WOT really means...</a></p><p></p>


created: 2002-03-05 11:54:13
subject: <b>yeah, these last couple of theories....</b>
body:
were kind of a waste.  While I usually praise this type of thinking, it really is irrelevant to this theory post, which I assume exists so us readers can try to make some accurate conclusions about the novels.  Theories like these do nothing to advance our understanding of the novels.  Instead, it attempts to enlighten us on some rather obscure philosophical and psychological references.  If somebody wants to use a Jungian model to help predict the outcome of the last battle, fine.  Otherwise, I think we should leave these essays in their proper place: academia.


created: 2002-03-05 14:05:34
subject: <b>Well, I kind of agree with you guys...</b>
body:
But on the other hand, I personally am glad these were posted up.  They were interesting to read, and they were a refreshing change from the usual theories.  Not that there is anything wrong with anyone else's theories, but it's nice to see some that have utilized someone's higher thinking skills, rather than their skill with looking up obscure quotes.  Just my opinion, of course.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;With fear, serve with death.  Glee with fear, kiss thy child.  Perhaps He shall bestow thou into oblivion in vain.  Amen.&quot; - Knight of the Church Paladin Alexander Anderson</font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-05 14:59:13
subject: <b>It'd be</b>
body:
better if there was a section called WOT Essays or something, cos I agree that I'm glad these were posted (well, not really this last one which seems to just be a series of questions) just so I can read them, but they don't necessarily belong in the Theory Post.


created: 2002-03-05 15:44:31
subject: <b>bah!</b>
body:
I liked all of these &quot;essays&quot; a lot.  I think the intention was to get us to think about the possibilities of more depth in the series.  If you read them you could come to some conclusions as to what might happen in the future of the novels, therefore having them here is as good a place as any.  Praise to the author!


created: 2002-03-05 20:44:50
subject: <b>I like this theory of questions.</b>
body:
Theories are supposed to attempt to explain things.  In this theory, Durandir points out opposites and tries to establish why and how they might work out.  This is a strong theory in my mind because he also raises questions to be stirred by later theories.  No theory accurately explains everything; all raise some questions, be they religious, scientific, or WoT.  To me your thinking is praiseworthy, and the logic in looking at Jordan's influences (especially his admitted and obvious ones like the ones you cite with Opposites) can help us predict the course of his novels.  Well done, Durandir.  Thanks for the thought.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Guy who likes to play basketball and wants sports in Randland other than sha'je <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br />Master player of stones <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gimli.gif" border="0" /><br />Generally a good guy <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-06 01:24:36
subject: <b>HMMMMMM</b>
body:
BONNNGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Go read a Bret Easton Ellis novel (Glamorama, Rules of Attraction, American Psycho)<br /><br />&quot;But so it is that few cannot always stand against the many....&quot;  -J.R.R Tolkien, The Book of Lost Tales (The Fall of Gondolin)<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-06 05:33:05
subject: <b>To &quot;Peace-Favor-You &quot; ...</b>
body:
that post added so much to the discussion which was occuring in this thread. I must congratulate you on how thoughtful your contribution was. That had to be the most enlighting thread, to ever be posted in the theory post. ~I must bow to your skill .~ &quot;Peace-Favor-You&quot; the main MB is the place for SPAM or idiotic replies . <br /><br />Simon<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Founding member of the ASI</b><br /><br /><b>TP ADMIN</b><br /><br /><b>Simon</b><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-06 09:04:06
subject: <b>Shut up brain, or I'll poke you with a Q-tip! -Homer</b>
body:
Durandir make big post.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gandalf.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br /><br />Durandir use big words.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br />Durandir write long sentence. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br />Cybrmnk brain hurt. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perplexed.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br />All in all an interesting post, but I think it belongs more in the &quot;articles&quot; or &quot;encyclopedia&quot;<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Long Live Taimandred! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sammy.gif" border="0" /><br />Cybrmnk <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gandalf.gif" border="0" /> -One of the last remaining believers in the Taimandred theory.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-07 08:10:22
subject: <b>I know people who talk like that</b>
body:
And I never liked them, either. It is possible to express your ideas without confusing the hell out of the rest of us. In my experience, people who write using all the big words, complicated sentence structure, and philosophical allusions they can possibly come up with are usually not-so-smart people trying to impress everyone else with their intelligence.<br />Maybe we should have a translation in normal-people-speak at the bottom, m?


created: 2002-03-07 16:10:03
subject: <b>Durandir Was Paraphrasing Jung's Style</b>
body:
Much of the post was directly taken from Jung's writings.  I assure you that Durandir did not come up with the phrase &quot;lurking Seth-like in thin chains&quot;.  Of course, he mentioned that he was taking from Jung's ideas, and he's not trying to get the theories published, so it seemed to me that he didn't need to provide footnotes and references.<br /><br />On the other hand, everyone around here seemed to think that he made this up (&quot;Oh Durandir, you're so intelligent&quot; ), or that he was the one who decided to use the more esoteric &quot;chthonian&quot; as opposed to the more everyday &quot;earthly&quot;.  He wasn't.  Jung loved to talk like that.  He also loved to talk about syzygy and homoousia and eschatological theriomorphs.<br /><br />My problem wasn't with his style, but the propriety of the ideas on a theory post of this sort and the mistakes.<br /><br />Still, the tone is just another reason I think the theories shouldn't be posted in the same place with the others.  It's just pretentious.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Annoying wotmaniacs for 10 years.<br /><br />Oh, I don't have time for this. I have to go and buy a single piece of fruit with a coupon and then return it, making people wait behind me while I complain. - Prof. Farnsworth<br /> <br /><b>The Voice of Lews Therin</b><br /><br /></font><p><a href="http://www.waronterrortheboardgame.com/" target="_blank">Find out what WOT really means...</a></p><p></p>


created: 2002-03-14 06:18:38
subject: <b>The Voice</b>
body:
Your attempt to make me feel terrible has succeeded. You accuse me of plagiarism - which is utterly false. You tell me I make you want to be sick. I do now feel stupid and alone. <br /><br />I am sorry about my tone - I will not post anything with this tone, which you don't like, again. Stylistically my writing is very similar to Jung's in 'anima' and 'rand as tyrant king', yes - which is interesting in a post written on Jung's psycho-analytical methods by a person who reads a lot of Jung, isn't it? I am unsure how to respond to this criticism.<br /><br />I did not take anything directly from Jung's work except his model, which I explicitly stated. No quotes were used without due credit.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>aerocontrols has already posted this</i><br /><br />This post was funded by Hamas.<br /><br />http://www.seanet.com/~billr/xbs/DontdisElisha.htm</font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-14 06:19:30
subject: <b>PS. Mistakes?</b>
body:
??<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>aerocontrols has already posted this</i><br /><br />This post was funded by Hamas.<br /><br />http://www.seanet.com/~billr/xbs/DontdisElisha.htm</font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-14 08:23:20
subject: <b>&quot;From the Mouth of Babes&quot;</b>
body:
Oh, how to begin. . . . Well, with my thoughts on the post&#8212;and perhaps on the others, which I have not responded to&#8212;of course, but really there isn't much for me to say aside from the usual &quot;I like it.&quot; Durandir has an interesting mind, and if his thought patterns stem from reading copious amounts of Jung, well, that merely implies by his interest that his mind already works in a similar fashion, no? As far as I'm concerned, it's nice to see these random bits of philosophy floating around<br /><br />Let's see, now. . . . Mierrisenne Sedai entered the chat early this morning (by wotmania time -- EST) and apologised for her remarks to Durandir, noting that she was cranky at the time. *nods sagely* We've all been there.<br /><br />*Considers* To some who responded here, such as the oxymoronic (at least in conjunction with his name) &quot;The Voice of Lew Therin,&quot; I should note that a philosopher, by nature, cannot be narrow-minded, else he or she will lose sight of his or her philosophical goals. One cannot define or even comment on philosophy by any means other than equal or greater philosophical analyses, for any other consideration must be incrementally flawed by simple merit of seeking definition. You see, the point of philosophy is not merely to seek the answer but to seek that which brings the original question back into view.<br /><br />Again, The Voice of Lews Therin, you attempt to place Durandir in bad light, try to associate him with plagiarism, yet once more you seem to be speaking much whilst in actuality saying little. Mostly, you seem simply to be passing somewhat flammable material. Recall, if you may, that the simplest path to understanding is typically to ask questions, not make accusations&#8212;nor may a question be accusatory; it must be in the spirit of a truly inquisitive nature. I myself might ask questions of you, but at the moment, less direct methods would seem to be more effective.<br /><br />Well, that about wraps it up, in a philosophical sense. *chuckles amusedly, then tips a non-existent hat*<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Draco Paladin<br /><br /><br /><i>Reason is illogical.</i></font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-14 19:09:21
subject: <b>If You Wish to Discuss...</b>
body:
...my comments on the Durandir posts, the proper place is probably the Noteboard.  Durandir has already sent me messages with his reaction and I've responded.<br /><br />For the record, to speak about dragons as combining celestial and chthonic influences, etc. is to paraphrase Jung.  His sentences weren't direct quotes that should have been put in quotation marks.  I felt that I made this clear.  My point was that Durandir had taken Jung's archetypes and pasted them on to figures in WoT, as opposed to (as some seem to have thought) developing the concepts on his own.  In keeping with the tone of the post, the archetypes did not spring from his mind like Pallas, full-armored.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Annoying wotmaniacs for 10 years.<br /><br />Oh, I don't have time for this. I have to go and buy a single piece of fruit with a coupon and then return it, making people wait behind me while I complain. - Prof. Farnsworth<br /> <br /><b>The Voice of Lews Therin</b><br /><br /></font><p><a href="http://www.waronterrortheboardgame.com/" target="_blank">Find out what WOT really means...</a></p><p></p>


created: 2002-03-15 07:21:03
subject: <b>There seems to be no need to use the noteboard in this instance.</b>
body:
Yes I gathered that speaking of dragons in such a manner may be paraphrasing; in fact, you made it so abundantly clear that it seemed as though you were implying something, thus, perhaps, the atmosphere of my post. I understood your point quite well, and as far as I can tell, neither he nor I have specifically debated it&#8212;as Durandir has noted to me, the writings of Jung hold a strong influence on the mode of his thoughts, which is why, whether consciously or not, the posts turned out in the manner that they did. My point, you see, was and is the accuracy of the philosophy involved, which seemed to be without flaw.<br /><br />Now, I would advise that, in the future, you refrain from insulting an author; rather, if you feel that something is not right, do make accusations but ask questions, for it is in blithe assumption that you run headlong into the wall of ignorance.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Draco Paladin<br /><br /><br /><i>Reason is illogical.</i></font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-15 12:03:17
subject: <b>Flawless? I think not</b>
body:
Durandir's theory post was far from flawless.  He talks about a &quot;coniunction oppositorum&quot; (it's coniunctio, not coniunction, by the way) and mentions how Eastern philosophy highlights reconciliation of opposites (which is true), but then goes on to say that the Aes Sedai symbol represents this as well.  That's flat out wrong: Jordan has said on numerous occasions that, unlike the yin yang symbol, which has a white dot on the black half and a black dot on the white half to symbolize reconciliation of opposites (which Jung uses to illustrate the concept of the anima as an unconscious feminine influence in men, and the animus as an unconscious masculine influence in women), the Aes Sedai symbol is a stark contrast.  There is no harmony, there is no reconciliation.<br /><br />Durandir later asks whether Jordan's cosmic system is monotheistic or dualist.  Jordan has answered this question: he's said he envisions his world as a Manichean sort of dualism.  It's been mentioned in several interviews.<br /><br />Durandir tries to apply this sort of dualism to Rand by mentioning that he combines the Messianic with the diabolic.  There is absolutely no basis on which one could say this.  None.  Zero.  Jordan is merely playing with Christian stereotypes, just as early Christians played with the Greco-Roman pagan system to twist meanings.  <br /><br />After all, Lucifer means &quot;bearer of light&quot; and was the Roman god of the dawn. But when St. Jerome translated Isaiah from the Hebrew (and partially from the Greek Septuagint), he decided to translate the phrase &quot;son of the morning star&quot; as &quot;Lucifer&quot;.  And while modern theologians are almost in universal agreement that this does not mean Satan, but rather a king, probably of Assyria, the connection stuck and Lucifer was transformed from a minor god of the Roman pantheon to the Prince of Darkness.<br /><br />Durandir then goes on to ask: &quot;Is this a conscious philosophical treaty, or simply a manifestation of life's natural laws in literature?&quot; I believe he means &quot;treatise&quot;, not &quot;treaty&quot;, except to the extent that diplomatic agreements among nations can be philosophic.  He also has made no effort to show how the symbolism he is highlighting manifests itself in actuality as opposed to perceived reality.<br /><br />He also talks about a &quot;philosophical&quot; approach while dealing with Jung's psychoanalytical theories, with little to distinguish philosophy from psychology.  While at a purely academic level one can argue whether there is a distinction between the two, the methods used and the focus of the two disciplines are varied.  Jung looked for symbolism because he believed that a collective unconscious existed, something like instinct in animals, and that these images were burned into that collective unconscious, the proof being that they appeared in disparate cultures at various points in time and cultural development.  He used it to help patients deal with issues by letting them use the psychological power of the images, which, coincidentally, Jung felt could not be encapsulated in the way which Durandir has done, for, as he put it, &quot;the archetype, once defined, will lose its meaning&quot;.  Philosophy is much more open-ended.  It doesn't try to prove via theory and experiment.  <br /><br />So, for these and yet other reasons, I disagreed with Durandir's points.  None of it, however, really needs to be on Theory Post.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Annoying wotmaniacs for 10 years.<br /><br />Oh, I don't have time for this. I have to go and buy a single piece of fruit with a coupon and then return it, making people wait behind me while I complain. - Prof. Farnsworth<br /> <br /><b>The Voice of Lews Therin</b><br /><br /></font><p><a href="http://www.waronterrortheboardgame.com/" target="_blank">Find out what WOT really means...</a></p><p></p>


created: 2002-03-17 05:31:47
subject: <b>Thank God</b>
body:
This is much better than 'Oh Durandir, you're so intelligent' and accusations of plagiarism (re-read your post). Great points, which you've never mentioned as yet, and I'm glad you did. <br /><br />Spelling/term mistakes: Oh. Geez.<br /><br />Paraphrase thing: If anyone thought I came up with these concepts myself they are too stupid to be commenting on anything. I made it so explicit I have trouble believing this is true. <br /><br />&quot;There is no harmony, there is no reconciliation.&quot; Now I'm interested. I'm prepared to concede this point, if you can show me how the exclusion of the dots change the symbol from a reconciliation of opposites to whatever. I don't quite understand that, so I'm all ears.<br /><br />&quot;Durandir later asks whether Jordan's cosmic system is monotheistic or dualist. Jordan has answered this question: he's said he envisions his world as a Manichean sort of dualism. It's been mentioned in several interviews.&quot;<br /><br />I confess I don't feel stupider because I didn't know of these interviews, but thanks for pointing it out. So, cool. What is a Manichean sort of dualism? And what's your point - are you answering one of my questions (thanks) or criticising the question - for 'ignorance', perhaps?<br /><br />No basis? OK, here I can disagree. As Rand is both world destroyer and creator, both Messiah and a bringer of suffering, and as he is struggling with hubris at the moment, which is the same thing that caused Satan's downfall . . . I'd say I do have a basis, at the least one which needs serious argument to refute. <br /><br />&quot;Jordan is merely playing with Christian stereotypes, just as early Christians played with the Greco-Roman pagan system to twist meanings.&quot; Not familiar at all with the Greco-Roman pagan system and how it twisted meanings, please elaborate. I confess to complete ignorance. (Damn that esoteric material).<br /> <br />Please keep the barf bag comments out of your reply. So far so good.<br /><br />&quot;the connection stuck and Lucifer was transformed from a minor god of the Roman pantheon to the Prince of Darkness.&quot; Yes, it did stick. In fact, it's stuck rather firmly, as you may have noticed, and Jordan could well have used Lord of the Morning as a euphemism for Prince of the Morning despite translation errors in the distant past. <br /><br />&quot;treatise&quot;. Heh. Doh. Thanks for fastidiously pointing that out.<br /><br />&quot;He also talks about a &quot;philosophical&quot; approach while dealing with Jung's psychoanalytical theories, with little to distinguish philosophy from psychology.&quot; If you're referring to my Rand and Opposites post, which did not rely on the work of Jung much at all, and only mentioned him once, in fact, almost in passing . . . I asked for people to tell me about the philosophy of opposites so that we could maybe draw inferences about how Jordan envisions the world of WoT. This has nothing to do with psychology. If you're talking about something else, go for it. <br /><br />So, I disagree with every point except possibly to your contention regarding the Aes Sedai symbol - though keep in mind that the Rand and Opposites theory can incorporate the Aes Sedai symbol in this new light without detriment. However, I'm interested in seeing how this one, at least, turns out.<br /><br />As for the whole 'don't use the theory post for this' stuff . . . <br /><br />Who cares??? Let's not be anal. This is not an academic institution. It's just a casual fan site . . . <br /><br />Perceiving that discussion with The Voice is taking an immensely worthwhile turn,<br /><br />- Durandir<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>aerocontrols has already posted this</i><br /><br />This post was funded by Hamas.<br /><br />http://www.seanet.com/~billr/xbs/DontdisElisha.htm</font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-17 05:35:26
subject: <b>Also</b>
body:
Please publicly take back your attempt to discredit me re: the 'Seth' sentence. We both know this is a lie.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>aerocontrols has already posted this</i><br /><br />This post was funded by Hamas.<br /><br />http://www.seanet.com/~billr/xbs/DontdisElisha.htm</font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-18 12:13:53
subject: <b>RE: Aes Sedai symbol et al.</b>
body:
First of all, I will not take back my comment on the Seth sentence.  Perhaps you've forgotten that you read it, but it is not original - I am convinced of this and will find it.  I reiterate that it cannot be a lie if I believe it; at most, I can be mistaken.<br /><br />Second of all, Robert Jordan himself mentioned the Aes Sedai symbol point.  He said that he intentionally removed the dots from the symbol because the dots represent harmony.  There is a bit of darkness in light, a bit of light in darkness, etc., in the &quot;yin yang&quot; symbol.  However, there are no dots in the symbol because Jordan wanted to show that there was no such reconciliation.  He said this explicitly and in terms similar to those I'm using in an interview when asked about the Aes Sedai symbol.<br /><br />He also said that his world is a Manichean dualism.  Mani was supposedly from Persia and he became very popular in the eastern Christian world as a Christian teacher (this is prior to the fall of Rome; if you want concrete dates I can dig them up).  However, among other things, he said that God and Satan were equals (which follows Persian cosmology).  This led to persecution as a heresy.  The heresy cropped up again later on in Eastern Europe as the Bogomil heresy (with some modifications, of course).  Jordan actually used the word &quot;Manichean&quot; in the interview where he was asked if the Creator was more powerful than the Dark One, as I remember - either that or the person asking did and he confirmed it.<br /><br />Finally, as I stated earlier there have been absolutely no hints or foreshadowing that Rand is anything less than a savior of good, unequivocally and without reservation.  My point was that Jordan was trying to show how legends get twisted around.  I believe I explained how Lucifer went from being the minor Roman god of the morning to being another name for Satan.  Other examples of Christian distortion of Greco-Roman beliefs abound.  For example, the Christians wrote so-called &quot;Sibylline&quot; prophecies (after similar Roman works) which supposedly foretold the birth, death and resurrection of Christ but were in fact forgeries from later centuries.  When confronted with mystery religions, such as those of Dionysus, Attis, Cybele and others which had rites and beliefs of a God-man who dies and is resurrected (and which were in existence for at least a full century before the birth of Christ), the response was that Dionysus, Attis and the others were all demons, and that Satan had sent them to preach a false message because he knew Christ would be coming and wanted to deceive mankind.  A pathetic explanation, but as the world became increasingly ignorant with the disintegration of the Roman world, it was accepted lock, stock and barrel.<br /><br />The legend about Satan having been an angel before being cast out of heaven is not one that comes from the Bible, unless the &quot;Lucifer&quot; reference in Isaiah 14 is so interpreted, where Jerome took &quot;quamquam cecidisti de caelo lucifer&quot; to refer to Satan. Modern theologians do not think this is a reference to Satan.  The story is an apocryphal one for Christians at least.  In any event, Rand hasn't shown hubris of a quality on par with Satan's - he doesn't pretend that he's more powerful than the Creator.  I don't think he's suffered from any delusions about that since the beginning of Shadow Rising when he tried to bring the little girl killed by Trollocs in the Stone back to life and all he could do was make the corpse dance around.<br /><br />Using theory post for these sorts of things is fine...I never objected.  I meant that personal messages back and forth are better put on the message board.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Annoying wotmaniacs for 10 years.<br /><br />Oh, I don't have time for this. I have to go and buy a single piece of fruit with a coupon and then return it, making people wait behind me while I complain. - Prof. Farnsworth<br /> <br /><b>The Voice of Lews Therin</b><br /><br /></font><p><a href="http://www.waronterrortheboardgame.com/" target="_blank">Find out what WOT really means...</a></p><p></p>


created: 2002-03-18 16:29:09
subject: <b>Manichean Duality</b>
body:
It was in the Compuserve interview given in June 1996 (you can see it at theoryland.com's archive of interviews - I don't know why it's not on wotmania's interview archive):<br /><br />Martin Reznick asks: How was the Dark One created, i.e. is he a fallen angel, an inherent part of the universe, etc.?<br />------------------------------------------------------------<br />Robert Jordan: I envision the Dark One as being the dark counterpart, the dark balance  if you will, to the creator...carrying on the theme, the ying yang, light dark,<br />necessity of balance theme that has run through the books...<br />it's somewhat manichian i know, but I think it works.<br /><br />We'll just look the other way on Mr. Jordan's misspellings (ying yang instead of yin yang, Manichian instead of Manichean).<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Annoying wotmaniacs for 10 years.<br /><br />Oh, I don't have time for this. I have to go and buy a single piece of fruit with a coupon and then return it, making people wait behind me while I complain. - Prof. Farnsworth<br /> <br /><b>The Voice of Lews Therin</b><br /><br /></font><p><a href="http://www.waronterrortheboardgame.com/" target="_blank">Find out what WOT really means...</a></p><p></p>


created: 2002-04-20 11:11:01
subject: <b>Geeshhhh!!!</b>
body:
Good Theory mate! Only problem is, I don't think 20% of all readers understand your psychological war with TVofLT. Why don't you two visit each other over a cup of tea and sort this out while the rest of us half litterate crowd decide what to think of how the young hero is supposed to win the dark one.


created: 2004-06-21 02:22:26
subject: <b>Paradoxical Harmonies</b>
body:
I accept the fact that I may get ripped over this idea, but here it is:  When dualities are considered, there is usually some balance between the two, some equilibrium constantly occurring as two opposing sides battle for position. It is my belief that in the world of the WOT, the pendulum is currently swinging more towards the dark end of the spectrum, with the Dragon Reborn being called upon to restore the balance...which is how the Creator designed the Wheel.  In a small way, this is parallel to the paradoxical relationship between saidin and saidar.<br /><br />I realize that there is no vying for position - the previous paragraph was designed to illustrate the reconciliation of opposites into a balance.  The claim was made that saidin and saidar are not harmonious.  This isn't true...because they are harmonious, if paradoxically.  The fulcrum of this theory is the idea of checks and balances which contribute to the forces being in equilibrium.  It is generally believed that males are generally stronger than females in the raw aspect of strength in wielding the power, and so males cannot link without a woman.  On the other side of the lever, to balance this, a circle of women cannot go beyond 13? without a male, which interestingly enough, would probably be necessary to hold Rand.  The harmony comes with the statement that is repeated throughout the books that the greatest achievements in the Age of Legends were accomplished through the combination of both saidin and saidar.  There is a balance, and there is a harmony despite the depiction of what are obviously contrasting forces.  <br /><br />This theory could also lead to the question that the world is only in harmony when there is a balance between the forces of light and the forces of dark.  Too much influence by either side could have negative impact on the world.  Maybe the Creator knows this which is why it doesn't interfere, and maybe Shai'tan knows, but simply doesn't care.  The Creator understands and promotes order, and by staying out of the affairs of the world maintains that end of the deal, while the Dark One opposes order and seeks to destroy it, and maintains the position of antithesis.  Thereby, the Creator included the rebirth of the heroes of the wheel in order to do the Light's part in maintaining the balance, and thus creating a fluctuating harmony.  <br /><br />


created: 2002-03-07 14:07:06
subject: <b>I don't agree, BUT ...</b>
body:
Well, like I said, I don't agree that Norry is Demandred or an agent of Balwer, BUT I like this theory.  I always like to look at the &quot;nuts and bolts&quot; behind a story (guess that's why I like Tom Clancy so much, too), and I've often wondered about Balwer's spy network.  I would &quot;give a pretty&quot; to know who his spies are and how he networks them.  However, I think Norry is loyal to Caemlyn, not neccessarily the Trakands or any other Houses, and wouldn't be turned against Caemlyn for anything.  After all, Andor has a long tradition of sending it's Queens and Daughters Heir to the Tower for training, even if they never actually become Aes Sedai.  So why would he go contrary to one of Andor's traditions to spy?<br /><br />Just a thought.<br /><br />The Traveler<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">The Traveler <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Health nuts are going to feel stupid someday, lying in hospitals dying of nothing. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Society is floating in the toilet bowl of life, and Political Correctness is doing a dance on the handle! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gandalf.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-07 14:39:54
subject: <b>Why Demandred is norry</b>
body:
I have one simple reason for Norry not being Demandred. Rahvin rule the city. The Forsaken don't trust anybody<br /> least of all Demandred.  We have never seen two Forsaken in one city working together.  Rahvin would know if <br />another forsaken were in the city, unless it was perhaps The Spider who is a master of hiding.  If Demandred is<br />in a city, then it is one that hasn't been occupied by another Forsaken, (Cairhein)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Halt here! Now! Else he'll channel your head <br />into your belly and feed you your own feet for breakfast<br /><br />Mat Cauthon<br /><br />Tai'shar Wardsville</font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-07 15:09:03
subject: <b>He's just working for money</b>
body:
Everyone knows accountants don't get paid enough <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cheers!</font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-07 15:54:12
subject: <b>In reply to Paedrig</b>
body:
One thing I think people never understand about the possibility of Norry being Demandred, is that Demandred could have entered Caemlyn AFTER Rahvin was disposed.  Norry's first appearance was in LoC afterall.  I have a whole theory about this, and I will post it to the blackboard shortly.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ADA- AlannaDawn Anonymous-- helping wotmaniacs recovering from their AlanndaDawn Addictions in a dynamic new 12-step program.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-07 16:02:01
subject: <b>Possibilities with Demandred and Norry</b>
body:
In this theory, I am going to elaborate on what I think Demandred's plan is.  It builds off of Mahiro's previous theory.  I will build on the basic conjecture that Demandred is posing as Halwin Norry, and that Mazrim Taim is one of Demandred's agents.  <br /> <br />  In determining who Demandred is, I think that there is one very important clue that has been neglected.  This clue occurred in LoC, in The First Message.<br />    Mesaana says, &quot;Where is Demandred?  Seventeen days since he went to Shayol Ghul, but he waits until now to inform us of a message, then does not appear.&quot; <br /><br />          She seems surprised about the 17 days, and also about the fact that Demandred is running late.<br />       Why did Demandred wait 17 days before sharing his plan with the others?  Was it because he was putting on Nae'blis airs before Semirhage and Mesaana? I don't think so, Semirhage and Mesaana are important allies of Demandred and he would not want to risk losing them. Then, Why 17 days?<br />         Recall that this Forsaken meeting is 18 days after Rand's conquest of Andor, and the death of Rahvin.<br />           It is HIGHLY likely that Demandred couldn't meet for 17 days because he was so busy setting himself in a new position, and he needed all that time in order to do a convincing job and to enact the D.O.'s plan.  It is also highly likely that this new position has something to do with Andor.  The timing is perfect.  Demandred meets the D.O. only a day after Rand obtained Andor.  Much of their meeting relates to the events that just took place in Caemlyn, &quot;DEMANDRED.  HOW FARES THIS WORLD?&quot; ect, ect.  I think it is very likely that the D.O. plan related to how to use these events to their advantage. It is only a day after Caemlyn fell, and Demandred has the perfect window to infect Caemlyn with his presence.  But what new position would Demandred be setting himself into?<br /> <br />          Norry is a powerful figure who &quot;had kept Caemlyn alive since her mother had fallen into Rhavin's clutches, though Norry was vague about that.&quot; (WH, 191).  This would make Norry a very busy man, keeping Caemlyn alive. And if Demandred really is Norry, it would greatly explain Demandred's need to disappear for 17 days.  I personally don't think Demandred was in Caemlyn when Rahvin was, I personally think Demandred entered into Caemlyn a day or two after Rahvin died.  I am just making the point that Norry would have had an extremely busy job shortly after Caemlyn fell to Rand.  Demandred would not have much other time during those 17 days than to attend to his job if he were Norry.  His workload would be even more if he was setting up Taim.<br /><br />   Using my logic that Demandred penetrated some position in Andor, The only good options for who Demandred installed as himself are Norry and Mazrim Taim. (there are only options, or course, but none enticing). <br />.    Both Taim and Norry appeared in Andor in Book 6, shortly after Demandred's visit to Shayol Ghul.  No other characters around Andor seem like really good suspects except perhaps Bashere, but we know that Bashere submitted himself to Rand in FoH, before Demandred made his epic visit to Shayol Ghul.  Thus, Bashere is a much less likely suspect than Norry or Taim.<br />          I personally think that Halwin Norry is the better candidate, as WH exposed several new problems with the Taimandred theory. However, we do know that Taim is a darkfriend and that he is most likely working for Demandred.  I personally think Taim is an integral part of Demandred's plan.  We also know that Demandred is fond of using proxies.  In Threads of Woven Shadow Sammael thinks and says, &quot;Events to the south had Demandred's mark all over them.  Demandred had always liked using proxies. 'Tell him to be careful.  I won't have him or his friends(italics) interfering in my plans...'  'So long as they steer clear of me, his lackeys can carve out what he wants, but they will steer clear or he will answer for it.&quot; In this passage, I think Sammael is referring to Taim and the Ashamen.  When Sammael mention friends(italics) I don't think he is referring to anyone other than the Ashamen.  Friends is plural, and thus I don?t think Sammael is referring to army. Also, I don't think that Sammael would have used this term with the Whitecloaks or the Dragonsworn or some other force to the south (of Graendal's palace).  I think the word 'friends' fits much better  with Ashamen.  Taim is the proxie, and the Ashamen are the lackeys.  Sammael, for good reason would be afraid of the Ashamen, and this is why he warns Demandred to keep them away from him.  I don't think Sammael would be nearly afraid of another group like Dragonsworn as he would of the Ashamen, and that is why he warns Demandred to keep them away from him.  Recall that Sammael has a good army, so he has less reason to be afraid of an army than of male channelers.  <br />           Many people think that Sammael?s comment about proxies indicates that he knows who Demandred is.  But this is not at all the case.  In To Understand a Message Sammael says to Graendal, ?I am sure I know what Demandred is scheming, but where is he hiding??  Based on my interpretation of the Sammael?s quote about the proxies, Sammael thinks Demandred is involved with Taim and the Ashamen.  However, as we see from the quote I just gave, Sammael does not know who Demandred is or where he is hiding.  To me, this may be more evidence that Demandred is not Taim.    <br /><br />   To return to Demandred?s plan, I think Demandred has at least a two part plan to sow chaos, using the powers of both Norry and Taim.  Demandred?s plan could also have a few more proxies involved.  Demandred is a brilliant organizer afterall.  Both Taim and Norry appear at the right time to be part of the plan that the D.O. handed to Demandred.  Taim is the perfect proxy for Demandred, and as Norry, Demandred can fulfill his orders of keeping a watch on Rand.  <br />   To go back to Norry, I think it is quite possible that Norry could be Demandred. Luther Paendrag has pointed out an important point on the blackboard to mahiro's original post about Demandred being Halwin Norry.  He pointed out that  it IS possible to mimic someone?s behavior with the mask of mirrors.  He cites the example of Lanfear posing as Else Grinwell in TDR.  Go to his post for more detail.  Perhaps Demandred found Norry, put him under compulsion, and forced him to answer his questioning.  Once Demandred learned enough, he could comfortably pose as Norry.  His job would also be made easier by the fact that Harfor and Elayne are the only people in the Royal Palace that really knew Norry.  Therefore Demandred had a certain margin of error in the presentation of himself as Norry.  <br />          But there are other benefits of Demandred posing as Norry.  Personally, I think Norry is the perfect saboteur job.  Demandred can totally manipulate the light into thinking that they are winning, and then he can implode Andor from the inside.  This is why Norry is keeping Elayne and others in the palace alive, so that Rand and the light think they control Andor and then put a great deal of stock into it, and then Demandred can crash that stock and dash Rand's chances of winning the Last Battle.  Ultimately, Demandred's motive is to see Lews Therin/Rand defeated, and posing as Norry gives him an excellent opportunity to do just that.  In addition, by using Taim as a proxie, Demandred has  another perfect tool available to sabotage all of Rand's plans to build an Ashamen, and to destroy half the world why he is at it.<br />       By this plan, Demandred would want to keep Elayne alive, at least for while.  Keeping Elayne alive also matches with the orders he received from the D.O.  &quot;WOULD YOU BE NAE'BLIS?  THEN LISTEN AND SERVE.  HEAR WHO WILL DIE AND LIVE.&quot;  It is possible that Elayne was one of the people that the D.O. wanted Demandred to keep alive.  My theory on Demandred's plan also fits with his order of, &quot;Let the Lord of Chaos rule.&quot;  Letting the Lord of Chaos, Rand, rule also involves letting his ally?s rule, for a short time at least.   But I think the D.O?s plan for Demandred goes much farther than just destroying Andor from the insdie.<br />       By destroying Andor from the inside, the D.O. is effectively destroying Rand from the inside.  Andor is Rand?s great hope for the world.  Rand wants to get Andor whole and strong for Elayne, and has much emotion tied into it.  Note that Caemlyn is the only city that Rand didn?t let the Aiel take their 5th from.  Rand?s love of Elayne extends to Andor, and if the D.O. can break Andor- especially at a time when Rand is getting desperate- then the D.O. may very well break Rand.  Ultimately, I think the D.O.?s plan for Rand is to turn Rand into the Nae?blis.  Thus if the D.O. can break everything Rand loves and cherishes, then Rand has nothing else to live for and may very well turn to the shadow.  Thus, Caemlyn is a fantastic place for Demandred to station himself.  <br />        To add another point, about the destruction of Caemlyn , I want to bring up Egwene?s experience going through the rings during her accepted test.  In ?The Price of a Ring? in TDR, Egwene experiences a devastated Caemlyn.  Caemlyn and the Royal Palace have been utterly ruined.  She sees Myrdraal and darkfriends walking the street.  The Royal Palace has been completely destroyed, Egwene sees the hand of an Aes Sedai sticking out, and she finds Rand trapped in the Palace remains.  Rand asks Egwene to kill him, because Rand is afraid of being turned to the shadow.  Rand is also afraid of the madness inside his own mind.  <br />        I personally think that at least some of the events that transpire in the rings become true.  For example Egwene witnessed herself wearing the shawl, and she learned that she would be Green Ajah. Nynaeve also learned of Sharina.  Therefore, I think that there is a strong possibility that Caemlyn will be destroyed.  If Caemlyn is to be destroyed, it means that there has to be some high insider darkfriends pulling the strings.  There are several possibilities, but Demandred as Norry is a perfect candidate.  Norry in a seemingly small position (though it is actually very important) could bring Caemlyn and Andor to its knees.  Thus this position makes much sense for Demandred.<br />      From Mesaana's point of view in The First Message we know that Demandred's plan was brilliant.  &quot;Mesaana found herself shivering and did not know whether she did so from excitement or fear.  It could work; it could hand them everything.  But it required luck, and gambling made her uncomfortable.  Demandred was the gambler.&quot;<br />            What Mesanna was thinking is in perfect accord with my theory about Demandred's plan.  The plan was extremely risky, and it could them everything.  Demandred posing as Norry is extremely risky, but if he sabotaged Andor- and perhaps more using Taim as his proxy, this would be a major blow to the light, and it could hand everything to the D.O.  <br />   Thus, I think Norry is a very likely person for Demandred to hide as, and I think that Taim is one of Demandred's proxies.  Both  could very well be part of his plan.  And there may be other proxies involved as well.  However, there is still the possibility that Demandred is just himself. He doesn?t have to be Norry, Norry could just be another of Demandred?s proxies.  This could also be.  However, due to Demandred?s orders to watch Rand, and due to the importance of Andor, I very well think Demandred may be Norry.<br />     Please write your feedback. <br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ADA- AlannaDawn Anonymous-- helping wotmaniacs recovering from their AlanndaDawn Addictions in a dynamic new 12-step program.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-07 16:03:37
subject: <b>Norry and alum</b>
body:
This theory builds on the original posted by Mahiro.  I posted this on the blackboard a while ago, but I have expanded it a little bit, and wanted to give it a little more spotlite.  While this evidence is a tangential, I at least wanted to bring it to the surface. <br />   One interesting point about the Nor-mandred theory is that Halwin Norry magically saves the day for Elayne. When Elayne is finacially deprived and the banks won't lend, she is in a very precarious position. Elayne needs lots of green to finance armies to defend her claim, and not to mention keep her people fed.<br />   Halwin Norry shows up as the hero by telling Elayne<br />that one of her estates, Danabar, has a huge stash of a certain highly valuable mineral called alum. Now, I found this to be a little stretched. Seriously, how long has this estate been possessed by Elyane's family? And why did the metal show up at precisely this<br />instant?<br />   There are several viewpoints to consdier , but one I would like to introduce is Nor-mandred located the metal for Elayne. We know that male channelers are very good with channeling and probing for metal.<br />If Demandred really was Norry, he would definitely be in the position to probe for Elyane's new stash of metal.  Especially since all of his Ashaman are out looking for stones and other materials to build the<br />black tower.  Adding locating alum to their workload wouldn't be that difficult.<br />   Basically, my thought is that the Dark One wants Elayne in control of Andor. One example is that Daved Hanlon was set up as the captain of Elayne's bodyguard. Elayne is part of the Dark One's plans (or at least of another Forsaken's plans) and Nor-mandred's orders were to help Elayne secure her throne. This included helped Elayne find the<br />financial resources. Nor-mandred would go at great length to find the cash. There were many different ways Demandred could find money, due to his extensive knowledge from AoL, but offering Elayne something<br />that Elayne already owned was the simplest and least suspicious.<br />   Therefore, Norry, or one of the darkfriend ashaman, traveled to all of Elayne's estates and probed them for their potential worth. He happened to<br />find alum.<br />   We know that Norry is a powerful figure who &quot;had kept Caemlyn alive since her mother had fallen into<br />Rhavin's clutches, though Norry was vague about that.&quot; (WH, 191).  Elayne is also not sure if she can count him in her camp. With all the previous evidence, I think it is quite possible that Norry may<br />just be Demandred. <br />     Before ending, I wanted to elaborate on the darkfriend plots taking place in Caemlyn.  Some people have expressed doubt that the D.O. wants Elayne in power, but I think there complete evidence of this. <br />In 'A Plan Suceeds' in WH, we see that the POV of the darkfriends in Caemlyn.  At Lady Shiaine's estate, Marillin gets her orders to enter Elayne's palace.  Marillin denies being able to get into the palace,<br />but says that she can make contact with a black Aes Sedai inside. <br />Later in this chapter, Daved Hanlon enters the scene.<br />       From 'A Plan Succeeds' we get total evidence that there are at least two forsaken involved with in setting up agents in the Royal Palace: Moridin and Moghedien. If Demandred really turns out to be<br />Halwin Norry, then then that makes 3 forsaken around Elayne.  With all of the armies converging into Andor, I think Andor will be one of the focal points<br />of the last battle.  And clearly, right now, Moridin is pulling many strings.  By manipulating the strings, Moridin can cause Rand's team to implode from the inside.  Basically, I think that is what Moridin is doing.  He is letting Rand, 'The Lord of Chaos' rule.  This includes all of the people close to Rand.  But Moridin is getting a very tight leash, a leash that he will be sure to take advantage of when the moment is ripe.  <br />      Perhaps, Nor-mandred fits into that plan.  Some people don't think Demandred would take such a lowly postion as Halwin Norry, but I think Demandred is highly intelligent.  He has seen the consequences of trying to force a hand with Rand.  Rather than being directly combative, like Samuel and the other dead Forsaken, he is keeping a low profile- a low profile where he has a great deal of power- and where this particular postion will be key to his future battle plans.  I think Demandred is perfectly willing to be second in command for a while- as long as it gives a future advantage of being the first in command.  We have already seen this once with Demandred and Moridin.  Demandred was willing to accept Moridin as Nae'blis, but he felt that just cause he was Nae'blis today didn't mean he would be Nae'blis tomorrow.  Demandred is clever, and as Mahiro pointed out, he has a great deal of experience in various 'high public offices.'  <br />     Eventually, I'd like to see another theory/faq made about the mask of mirrors.  This could add more prove/disprove about the Normandred theory.<br />            Please comment<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ADA- AlannaDawn Anonymous-- helping wotmaniacs recovering from their AlanndaDawn Addictions in a dynamic new 12-step program.</font><p></p>


