# w_comment

created: 2001-07-20 04:43:13
subject: <b>I Don't Think So (Olver/3souls)</b>
body:
First, let me say great theory, and i'm sure it took you a long time. Now I'll shred it. <br />First there cannot be three souls. Reason? If the Dragon (Savior Soul) is eternal, then the elder soul would not matter at all. Why have LTT in Rand's head when the Dragon himself resides there? Don't forget, LTT was, in effect, The Dragon Reborn, too. So why should Rand have HIS soul in him instead of the Dragon who completley seals the DO away with no bore (It is done that way for Lews Therin, is'nt it?) Since they are the Dragon(s), they have no soul of their own, just that of the Dragon (I DON'T WANT TO HEAR ANY CRAP ABOUT TWO SOULS IN ONE BODY!), so why would the &quot;elder soul&quot; matter at all? I do, however believe that the third face is a future/past age Dragon (his body).<br /><br />2: Olver cannot be Gaidal Cain. You said yourself that the Dragon's soul is eternal, and therefore can reside in T'A'R. If this is true, then why doen't it come when Mat blows the Horn? The reason is it is reborn already. That means that once a Hero is reborn, it is no longer in T'A'R. This is supported by the Horn thing.Therefore, since Cain's soul answered the Horn at Falme, and he was there for the Ghenji meeting, he had to be born after. In real time (book2 to book4 to book5) that is less than a year or just over. Olver is 10-12. The age difference is too great. <br />Sorry to nitpick, but I want to get my own stories straight before book 10! Any holes there? Please respond for my sake.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" />  Green Gaidin,Ash'aman,he's your neighborhood badassman!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-14 21:47:13
subject: <b>So thats why the Aiel Dreamers say u lose some of yourself in TAR</b>
body:
<br /><br />  U said that the Over Soul lives in TAR, that is why Birgette looks like she does, yes? Well then when u enter TAR &quot; in the flesh&quot; as the Wise Ones call it, then the Over Soul must try to adapt, as the Elder Soul does. Everyone must have an Over Soul, even if it doesnt talk to them. But spent to much time in TAR, and it will slowly take u over. See any holes in that?


created: 2002-04-15 11:00:30
subject: <b>YAY!</b>
body:
Wonderful theory!!!!!! I especially like how it ties in w/ the trinity of the father, son, and holy ghost, b/c that's what the LTT/Rand/Dragon Core relationship is esentially like. (yes, LTT isn't rand's dad, i know, but its like two stages of the same soul... Comprendo? No? Nevermind then.)<br />Anyway, great job!!!!!!!!!<br />I totally agree <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">hot damn.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-29 22:42:34
subject: <b>Access Keys</b>
body:
I agree with most of this theory except for one thing. There is still another female access key for the Choedan Kal out there. I believe it is either Verin or one of the Forsaken, but someone does say that mupltiple access keys were made. All they need to do is find another.


created: 2002-06-12 07:15:04
subject: <b>About the &quot;Elder Soul&quot;</b>
body:
I was going to say that I thought your idea about the Elder Soul was flawed, but then I found the flaw in my own arguement.  Perhaps in TAR, after the death of the hero, the &quot;Center Soul&quot; immediately changes into the &quot;Elder Soul.&quot; The previous &quot;Elder Soul&quot; becomes just another part of the &quot;Over Soul,&quot; and the new &quot;Elder Soul&quot; takes a dominant relationship with the &quot;Over Soul.&quot;  That would explain why the TAR versions of the dead heros both look like their last incarnations and have the memories of all of the past incarnations.  Then when the soul is spun back out into the pattern a new &quot;Center Soul&quot; portion is created, having some of the characteristics of the &quot;Over Soul,&quot; but still being basically a different person (as we are seeing with Rand and LTT).  <br /><br />In fact, there may be a definate order of ascendancy.  The &quot;Center Soul&quot; is always the fully dominant part of the relationship.  The &quot;Elder Soul&quot; is part that is usally locked away once the new &quot;Center Soul&quot; is created.  The &quot;Over Soul,&quot; once in a new life, merely directs the type of person that the &quot;Center Soul&quot; will become, subject to the whims of the pattern and where the person was born.  <br /><br />Then the taint might just be messing with the balance between the &quot;Center Soul&quot; and the &quot;Elder Soul,&quot;  as you said, causing the barriers to break down.  It's not _really_ several different people in one head, it's just different portions of the same person who usually interact in a way that is being disrupted by the taint (like if you got a head injury which somehow made your conscious mind react in a different way to your unconscious mind).<br /><br />You can recognize a great theory when, in an attempt to disprove it, you find yourself making an arguement that actually helps prove it.  Excellent job. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /> Beware, Lawbreakers! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /><br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/uno.gif" border="0" /> 'Tis I, the Thieftaker! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/uno.gif" border="0" /><br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" />Faithfull servant of... <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/myrddraal.gif" border="0" /> Oops, forgot... I don't serve anyone! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-03 23:04:58
subject: <b>I definitely do NOT agree!</b>
body:
First, lay off the caffeine! It's hard to figure out what you're saying if you don't put commas in the correct spots. What I'm trying to say is that you have long sentences that are pretty much run-ons.<br /><br />Second, how could Olver be Gaidal Cain? Unless the Dark One or the Creator displaced Olver, much like several of the Forsaken, it just doesn't work. (In other words, the original soul in Olver's body was forced out to make room for Cain. Personally, I don't think that's going to happen.) You can't have seperate embodiments of the same entity in the world at the same time, unless you're saying that, as a younger child, Olver didn't have a soul at the time of the Falme battle. <br /><br />Did you have to say that the only possible way for the Dragon to triumph at Tarmon Gaidon is for Rand as we know him to die? I, personally, believe that it IS possible to raise the dead, IF, and only if, you have enough strength in both the Power and Healing.<br /><br />Overall, this was a well-written theory. Next time, though, try using facts from the Books more than the theories of others. You should use some of their ideas, just don't have most of your theory based off of other theories.<br /><br />Alrae <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /> <font color="goldenrod">Lady Alrae of House Carillon</font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /> <font color="maroon">Snooty Tairen Noble Extraordinaire</font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/15233.gif" /> AKA <b><font color="red">Paine</font></b> <img src="images/personalsmilies/15233.gif" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /><b>I HATE STUPID PEOPLE!</b><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />All Hail the <b><font color="blue">Yu</font><font color="orange">Ri</font><font color="red">Pa</font></b>!</font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-06 16:49:45
subject: <b>It was meant to be</b>
body:
I know this an old theory but I figured i'd respond anyway. I think that Birgitte was meant to be ripped out like that. So with that in mind wouldn't she have the correct face and age? <br />Even if she wasn't meant to be ripped out the pattern would have to bring them together it is part of the pattern, that the two should fall in love with each other. If they did not then the pattern may very well unravel.<br />


created: 2003-07-03 00:03:20
subject: <b>Incredible!</b>
body:
I can see it now...Rand dies in a single arrogant moment...The horn is blown...huge hundred foot tall red dragon comes flying out of nowhere and kicks some @#% @#$^@^%@^@^@ DARK $^@#^% ONE #%&amp;$&amp;&amp;! I can see it now...Rand is doomed...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">PsyKyle<br /><i>Good heavens, that name sounds more cliche everytime I post...</i><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2008-09-22 07:49:48
subject: <b>kudos!</b>
body:
i had exactly the same idea you have written about. luckily you are far more eloquent than i am with the writings of the theories. somewhere in rand's subconscious there must be the generic dragonpersonality from whence all dragons spring (your oversoul). this personality cannot be LT, he wasnt the first dragon, even if Ishmael's blabber isnt to be believed, he dies at the end of the second age, so there must have been a him before him, so to speak. <br /><br />regarding your theory on olver, his obsession with 'snakes and foxes' leads one to believe that his purpose is in some way tied to the finn. possibly as someone who 'beats' them  without cheating?<br /><br />good theory anyway XD<br /><br />


created: 2001-06-23 12:02:42
subject: <b>Good idea!</b>
body:
That would be good turning in the plot, makes me looking forward to the next book. Another interesting thing is who actually wrote the Dark Prophecies. I think it might have been Slayer? And Barthanes? The way he was killed was Gholam like but Slayer was part of the hunt. The guards of the prison were also slaughtered like that, ripped in pieces. Does anybody know more about that. Fain seems to know the guy who rescued him and I doubt that he could find a differences in Myrdaal or even a know Df from Fal Dara? The way the guards were killed seem to imply that Slayer killed him, the two guards that went with Fain might have only been touched enough by SL taint that they followed without being DF.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;All universal moral principles are idle fantasies.&quot;<br /><br /> Marquis de Sade</font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-23 14:38:04
subject: <b>what if...?</b>
body:
What if Slayer were a gholam? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-06-23 21:11:04
subject: <b>Dust</b>
body:
Slayer is Isam(cousin to Lan) mixed with Luc(Rand`s uncle)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot; cogito ergo doleo.&quot;<br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> Veni, vidi, volo in domum redire<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" />Ecce potestas casei.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-23 21:15:16
subject: <b>HEI</b>
body:
Do Belive that in the end of the next book invasion will come from the north. Perfect Timing while the Commanders of the defense army of the North is in the south with the bulk of the army. The Dark One must be a fool to let that oppurtunity go away.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot; cogito ergo doleo.&quot;<br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> Veni, vidi, volo in domum redire<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" />Ecce potestas casei.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-23 22:18:57
subject: <b>Hmmm...</b>
body:
The plague would be a great turn of events.  Nynaeve will have her work cut out for her!<br /><br />Creative thinking!  Wish I had thought of this.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-06-24 05:31:11
subject: <b>Randland</b>
body:
Man, we need to come up with a new name. &quot;Randland&quot; is not exactly the best alternative. And besides, if we come up with a nice name for the continent, maybe RJ will take notice!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Elan Morin Tedronai, Lord of the Dark, Sightblinder, Keeper of the Dragons</font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-24 08:20:49
subject: <b>Yes! Nynaesia!</b>
body:
Let's call it Nynaesia!<br />All against stand up<br />All for sit at your computers<br /><br />Then it's settled, the new name is...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Lironj (LEE-ron-JAY): A person around whom the Wheel of Time weaves all surrounding life-threads, perhaps ALL life-threads, to form a Web of Destiny.<br />See also Pattern of an Age; ta&#8217;maral&#8217;ailen <br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-24 12:52:51
subject: <b>bah</b>
body:
Death shall reap, and bodies fail... I thought that was reffering to the taints effect on male channelers?


created: 2001-06-27 15:10:48
subject: <b>Interesting theory..</b>
body:
I am more inclined to believe Moridin is preparing to start another Trolloc War.  But your mass plague theory is quite interesting.


created: 2001-07-28 16:20:37
subject: <b>who killed the guards in Fal Dara?</b>
body:
How would Fain know Slayer? We never saw him before Fain was well and truly gone from the DO's glory. I'm not convinced of that. More likely a couple of Darkfriends from Fal Dara (remember he took a whole slew of them with him when he left with the Horn), who had perhaps been around Fain enough (other guards? cooks for the jail?) to become twisted enough to make the carnage they made. I think Fain himself wrote the Dark Prophecy? Although it is in trolloc tongue...


created: 2001-08-13 04:15:35
subject: <b>Gain the seed</b>
body:
I don't think that's the Seanchan who is reffered to in &quot;gain the seed slays ancient wrong.&quot; Unless that is part of the quote--I can't find it right now. But going back to biblical background, and in fact in other works to a lesser degree, the &quot;seed&quot; was the messiah. So, that would be Rand I'm sure we can agree. So what is the ancient wrong to be slain? I could explain at length, but I don't have the resources at the moment. Sufficed to say, I believe that would refer to Shadar Logoth. So he has done away with the city, but the only taint left of it is Fain. So once he slays fain, we have that gain at the beginning of the line; which coincidentally means unless. So once Rand defeats fain, then victory is all but assured.<br /><br />As for death reaping and bodies failing. We can agree that war is one meaning, as well as those who the taint on Saidin has affected physically. So, the only question is the plague. Other than that, everyone is right. I love it when everyone's right.


created: 2002-02-22 11:57:32
subject: <b>Brrrrr!</b>
body:
I'm disagreeing with your theory because I don't want it to happen. <br />Rand is goIng to be a father, for Light's Sake! We can't have the babies die! Or even run the risk of it!!!<br />No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, NO!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" />Karlaan <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/myrddraal.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-14 15:48:42
subject: <b>Well...</b>
body:
I think that if a plague were to break out, the Yellows' Eyes 'n Ears will notice and it will be supressed, that's what yellows are for.  Unless the DO makes it break out all over, hmmmm.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Four things cannot be hidden- love, smoke, a pillar of fire, and a man striding across the open bled.&quot;<br />                               -<i>Fremen Saying</i><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-12-02 15:00:48
subject: <b>Plague?</b>
body:
I thought the author was referring to such a number of rats that they would be swarming the way the ravens were around Perrin and Egwene in tEotW.<br /><br />&quot;A pile of ravens as big as a hill, seething like maggots, fighting over a few bloody shreds.&quot; - Chap. 29<br /><br />Plague might be worse. Emphasis on <b>might</b>.<br /><br />However, I don't think that this event will come to pass.  For one, the main characters can't really fight such a thing themselves, relegating it to background noise. I mean, using <i>Callandor</i> to slay millions of rats? <br /><br />It is also much weaker as a spur for Rand and his crew to leap headlong into the Last Battle (LTT-style) than if there were that many Trollocs in the South.<br /><br />And it has taken an entire book to drop a few hints about it, when it should have happened immediately after PoD, when that long summer broke and Rand fought the Seanchan. It is now halfway through winter. And the Dark One has much more to worry about now than using a few rats, now that <i>saidin</i> is clean.<br /><br />A tempting minor detail, I think, but not much more.<br /><br />Elder Haman <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/loial.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-06-23 21:52:30
subject: <b>Dust</b>
body:
Dommeste teorien ei he lest!!!!!! Skam Dei.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angry.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot; cogito ergo doleo.&quot;<br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> Veni, vidi, volo in domum redire<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" />Ecce potestas casei.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-23 22:19:05
subject: <b>Ok, I may be losing my mind...</b>
body:
...but, I believe Saidin can kill Mat, thus his medallion cannot block it, destroy it, absorb it, whatever. This is apparent when Rahvin strikes Mat with the Power in Caemlyn.<br /><br />I may be off center with this, but it is as I see it.<br /><br />Rawin


created: 2001-06-24 00:10:38
subject: <b>A little correction...</b>
body:
This is to Rawin.  Matt was not destroyed by saidin in Caemlyn.  It is not the power that hit him.  It was a lightning bolt provoked by the power.  Only direct power is absorbed.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" />  Go Me  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />&quot;Have a Happy Day&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-24 05:40:51
subject: <b>I like this theory!</b>
body:
What if he absorbs Saidar instead?<br /><br />Then, (bear with me, this is a long shot) what if the women channelers go mad from the sudden loss of the power?  Then the Males would have to hunt them down! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />I know that will not happen, because it would be too hard to fix.  But it makes a nice &quot;What if?&quot; thing to think about...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> Jeremy H. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><b><font color="#cc33ff"><br />Run far and fast when a wizard frowns.<br />Run faster when he smiles.<br /></font></b></font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-24 08:34:59
subject: <b>Saidin can't touch Mat!</b>
body:
In Salidar Halima channeld against Rand and was shocked to see that the weave couldn't touch him. (S)he propably thought he were a Gholam. And I don't think Mat will destroy Saidin/Saidar, at least not until TG.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;All universal moral principles are idle fantasies.&quot;<br /><br /> Marquis de Sade</font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-24 12:48:48
subject: <b>An eye, not saidin/saidar</b>
body:
I thought it was a know fact that Mat would lose an eye <br />(give up half of the light of the world) Supports for that theory is Egwenes picture of him playing dice with the dark one, betting his eye.<br />   Besides, if Mat destroyed one part of the one power, he would not &quot;give up&quot; anything, since he cant channel


created: 2001-06-24 21:21:04
subject: <b>I don't think so</b>
body:
&lt;My guess is that he will have to destroy the male half to stop an insane Rand&gt;  If Mat did destroy the male half of the True Source, he would, in effect, stop The Wheel of Time.  The male and female halfs of the True Source are needed (working with and against each other, to drive The Wheel that weaves the pattern.  Thus, destroying either Saidin or Saidar would stop time and release the Dark One.  Indeed, I don't believe either Saidin or Saidar can be destroyed.  If either could, then why wouldn't the Dark One--who is co-equal with the Creator and had the power to taint Saidin--destroy either half, stop time, and free himself?


created: 2001-06-26 00:17:44
subject: <b>Matt and his eye</b>
body:
In tEotW Min saw &quot;And (Mat) - a red eagle, an eye on a balance scale, a dagger with a ruby, a horn, and a laughing face.&quot;  The eye is balanced against something.  From other theories/arguments it is the world.  His one eye represents half of his light of the world.  He gives up one to balance against the other.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Thou shalt not have any fun to speak of, ever, because God loves you.  Lies.9.13<br /><br />Sin being everything that feels good.  Romans.22.7</font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-28 08:11:35
subject: <b>Really good theory...</b>
body:
Before Winter's Heart, it might have gained prominence as a counter to the losing an eye theory.  But the latter had more evidence anyway, and with book 9 the point is moot.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Your.Master <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-30 13:11:39
subject: <b>Response to Jeremy H.</b>
body:
If Saidar was to be destroyed then the female channelers would certainly go mad, but so frickin what? If they have no source to draw the one power from the men folk (who still have saidin) could easily subdue them.<br /><br />   I do tend to get the feelin that by the end of the book Saidar MIGHT get tainted. It'd be the perfect kind of counterpoint to the first breaking of the world. I don't think there have been any allusions to it in the stuff at the beginnings and endings of certain book that are from the 4th age (I hope I didn't make that sound too confusing). Of course that could be considered an obvious thing that doesn't need stated. Kinda like none of the prophecies of the dragon dwelled on the taint on Saidin.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-01 06:00:06
subject: <b>In regards to Mat's medallion being used to destroy saidin.</b>
body:
I see two problems right off with this theory.<br />     1) Mats' medallion doesn't protect against saidin. It protects Mat against a womans channeling. No matter what the woman channels against him, whether it be saidar or , as in Halimas' (Aran'gars) case, saidin. Mat told the Aelfinn that he wanted a way to be rid of Aes Sedai for good. Now since they feed on thoughts, hopes, and dreams they know that Mat sees all woman who can channel as Aes Sedai so they give a ter'angreal that protects him from a womans channeling. No men, no saidin, not even saidar really. Just whatever a woman channels at him with.<br /> <br />     2) Saidin cannot be destroyed any more than saidar can. Only the Creator could do it, but why? He put it here and he'll leave it because he has given the Randland characters free will and he lets them use it. He won't interfere with the world like the Dark One. It would make him too much like the Dark One.<br /><br />    Besides Egwene has seen Mat in her dreams with an eyepatch and ripping his own eye out and pacing it on a set of scales. Now, granted there are some things that are just figurative, but I just don't think this is one of them. But, I could be wrong<br />    Anyway this has been my first comment on a theory thanks for listening. Er.....reading.<br />                          Vallon di'Tembraille  <br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-07-05 17:10:10
subject: <b>THis might be relavant</b>
body:
I have considered something like this as well.  I don't agree with you completly but I think Mat will be responsible for something either with the power or involving major factions of Channelers, the broken White Tower perhaps or the White Tower against the Black<br /><br />This is one of Egwenes dreams that seemed connected to me <br /><br />&quot;Mat, weighing two huge Aes Sedai on a huge set of balance scales, and on his decision depended.. She could not say what; something vast; the world, perhaps.&quot; PoD ( p308 )<br /><br />Im not sure how yet but if any one comes up with a specific idea please post it.  Im tired of the eye.  I really think its too trivial.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where did these Skimmers come from?  I mean if they didn't want to read the book they could have just Traveled to another author.  Why risk arriving at the wrong destination?  Why risk falling into darkness?</font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-20 21:00:57
subject: <b>Matt's Medallion</b>
body:
Help me out here - Is it possible that Matt gives up the medallion.  Giving up half the (protection) light of the world.  Often we have read how Rand cannot bear to hurt any female, including forsaken - Lanfear and company.  Now we know Rand is on a course to wind up in Shayol Ghul(sp? sorry terrible speller/memory/grammer) facing &quot;the dark one&quot;.  In other fantasy novels we have seen this same plot played out over and over.  I am suggesting that Rand will need the protection of the medallion to help him against the female forsaken that he must contend with before he can fight the big cheese.  I remember the limits of the medallion - only direct weaves - but as we've seen and been told on several occassions - the forsaken do not know everything.


created: 2002-03-16 15:45:44
subject: <b>He will be the determinant of the...</b>
body:
<br /><br />'Mat, weighing two huge Aes Sedai on a huge set of balance scales, and on his decision depended.. She could not say what; something vast; the world, perhaps.&quot; PoD ( p308 )<br /><br />I think this huge two aes sedai symbolizes war between Egwene's forces and Elaida's.And Mat would be the determinant factor in this war and his choice(Probably Egwene ) might have interesting implications for the Last Battle


created: 2002-04-27 02:49:51
subject: <b>Take into consideration</b>
body:
If you take into consideration Nicola's Foretelling in LoC: <br /><br />&quot;... The great battle done, but the world not done with battle... the guardians balance the servants...&quot;<br /><br />Now this seems to suggest that Tarmon Gai'don, being the great battle, is over.  The guardian's, Asha'man, balance the servants, Aes Sedai.  If one part of the True Source, saidar or saidin, were destroyed they could not possibly balance each other.  Now there are multiple interpertations to this Foretelling, as there are to almost all of them.  But for as much as is needed to rebuke this theory, I believe it suffices.


created: 2003-01-20 22:27:25
subject: <b>What about this...</b>
body:
I'm not sure if this is right, because it's not really light, but if the True Source is the Light of the World, then maybe the opposite side, the True Power (i think that's what it's called) that the Forsaken sometimes use could be the other half, so if he destroyed that it would still turn the Wheel and would also account for half of &quot;the Light of the World&quot; being destroyed.


created: 2003-02-12 20:20:13
subject: <b>um no..</b>
body:
The OP is what makes the world go, yes?  If Mat destroyrd saidin or saidar, that would destroy the world wouldnt it?


created: 2005-08-30 23:09:14
subject: <b>ummm, thats kinda dumb</b>
body:
this is mainly directed at the guy who thinks that mat's madallin only protects against women.  i highly doubt that the medallin takes into account the physical apperance of aran'gar (halima) when she channels saddin at him in salidar, especially since the meddalin can't look at people when its underneath mat's shirt.  while i belive that some accident while making cannons will take out mat's eye, i think that the dude that wrote the above argument against saddin being blocked is pretty stupid.


created: 2001-06-27 15:08:03
subject: <b>Never occurred..</b>
body:
It never occurred to me that anyone even thought the True Power and the taint were the same.  Thank you for clarifying for any people out there who didn't already know that.


created: 2002-04-17 18:29:44
subject: <b>Not the same, but connected</b>
body:
When Rand cut off Asmodean's link to the DO, he also cut off his access to the &quot;True&quot; Power.  This must be so, because it flows directly from the DO, and because otherwise, Asmodean could have escaped Rand by using it, since Lanfear's weave just prevented him from doing too much with the One Power.<br /><br />Also, remember, the Forsaken (except for Ishamael) don't use the &quot;True&quot; power very often, because it has nasty side-effects, at least as bad as the taint, I'm guessing.  So the taint isn't the &quot;True&quot; Power, but the two are quite organically connected.<br /><br />Florian


created: 2003-01-01 20:54:34
subject: <b>maybe, maybe not</b>
body:
Just because one can touch saidar/saidin doesn't mean one is invulnerable to, say, a fireball woven from it. Why should it be different with the True Power?<br />Just because TP and taint feel different doesn't mean anything either. Accessing the One Power feels different than, for example, having a fireball of it lobbed into your head.<br /><br />I don't actually believe the taint is TP, but I thought I should point this out anyway.


created: 2001-06-24 18:52:30
subject: <b>Quite simply....I love it</b>
body:
Now THAT would be the way I would like it to happen. And your reasoning is very good.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="blue"><img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /> <b>PROUDLY CELEBRATING 10 YEARS OF WOTMANIA!</b></font> <img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /><br /><br /><font color="purple"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <b>FAQ and WoT Admin</b></font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><font color="gray"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> <b>Part-time Philosopher of the Wheel</b> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /></font></font><p><a href="/wotmessageboard2showmessage.asp?MessageID=107993" target="_blank">New WoT quizzes!</a></p><p></p>


created: 2001-06-24 19:47:48
subject: <b>I'd love to see that!</b>
body:
But it certainly wouldn't be bloodless.  Imagine, Elaidia as a hero of the horn, ahhhh lOl. 0<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Efreet<br /><br />Extropian<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> Incurable Optomist <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" />Mainah<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" />Almighty ONSEC of MITSFS<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />Lover of Squaresoft, Manga, and Strategy Games<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/blush.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br />&quot;Liberate Natural Courgarness&quot;<br /><br />&quot;Reality is what you can get away with&quot;<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-25 11:59:58
subject: <b>I don't think that would happen...</b>
body:
I think I would like it...but then again I hate her as a CHARACTER, not just her actions, maybe she should just die.  Or perhaps Alviarin and friends and Myrdraal will turn her.  Then Nynaeve heals that and she's so sorry she goes up to a forsaken and pulls the Nuclear Gating blast a la Egwene.  Or not.  Probably not.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Your.Master <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-26 00:13:49
subject: <b>I hate Elaida</b>
body:
Damn it I hate Elaida, if she gets even an inkling of a chance to redeem herself I might decide to stop reading this series that's how much I hate her.  But I'll tell you what'll happen, she'll be given a place as regular Aes Sedai, and then out of jealousy or envy, she is going to trun herself to the dark, and have Egwene deposed just like in her little accepted trip.<br /><br />And you all know the rest<br /><br />Kidblondeel<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-06-26 09:34:55
subject: <b>You're right...</b>
body:
RJ has something in mind for he, that's for sure. She cannot stop thinking about how she'll avenge her pride with Alviarin... RJ NEVER puts a thought in the mind of a character without reason<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b><font color="dark yellow">A</font><font color="red">n</font><font color="orange">an</font><font color="red">k</font><font color="dark yellow">e</font></b><br />Creator of the <i>Glistering and Shining New and Improved Advanced Warder Spoon</i><br />Warder to Corail<br />Disciple-restaurator of WOOPAH!&#8482;<br />Vice-President of <b>BucketBaby's</b> fanclub -She Rocks!<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-26 19:59:25
subject: <b>Elaida and Foreshadowing</b>
body:
I believe RJ has been foreshadowing Elaida's downfall throughout the series.  I believe Elaida will be deposed like Bonwhin before her.  Their personalities and actions seem very similar.  <br /><br />In Elaida's foretelling from A Crown of Swords,<br /><br />&quot;The White Tower will be whole again, except for remnants cast out and scorned, whole and stronger than ever. Rand al'Thor will face the Amyrlin Seat and know her anger. The Black Tower will be rent in blood and fire, and sisters will walk its grounds.&quot;<br /><br />I believe Elaida will be stilled or killed and some members of the black ajah, like Alviarin, will be cast out and scorned.  I believe the White Tower will be made whole again by Egwene or the group of Aes Sedai in the Tower with the oath rods.<br /><br /><br />This I foretell.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Jcatbays


created: 2001-06-30 12:36:08
subject: <b>Good Theory</b>
body:
that would be cool and on what Burr said about Messana. if Elaida was going to pass on the stole and staff then she must of already told Egwene so they will link and kick some Chosen ass (witch is not good (ohh! wait a miniute i have ceased to exist damm!) <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Tel the ponderer of strange things <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wearer of the trilby <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> Blademaster <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-red.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-30 13:58:37
subject: <b>ELAIDA HAS A REASON TO BE STUPID!!!</b>
body:
Please remember that PADAN FAIN  mentioned that he had &quot;done&quot; something to ELAIDA to make her hate RAND when he was in the white tower on the trail of his dagger , so this would explain alot of her strange actions towards him , although she is power hungry and slightly mad ( the amrilyn`s palace she is building )<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> Pastor of the church of the probable opinions <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" />  marked with the dreaded LVIII  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" />  bearer of the monolith  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> Irish man of good Celtic stock <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> ready to answer the call of the horn <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> Fourth Letter Telamon <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-06 15:08:38
subject: <b>what about the black tower</b>
body:
I'm a newbie so bear with me... if we look at Elaida's fortelling:<br /> &quot;The White Tower will be whole again, except for remnants cast out and scorned, whole and stronger than ever. Rand al'Thor will face the Amyrlin Seat and know her anger. The Black Tower will be rent in blood and fire, and sisters will walk its grounds.&quot;<br /><br />we see that in the end of it she foretells that the black tower will be 'rent in blood' and that sisters will walk the black tower's grounds... it could be that in the future Taim gets out of hand and the Black Tower splits along the cracks which we can observe in WH. so back to the point what if when Egwene reunites the tower Logain and his followers join her to attack Mazrim Taim's Dark friend aglommeration. <br /><br />


created: 2002-03-12 20:55:15
subject: <b>shienarian soldier?</b>
body:
in the theory it says shienarian soldier. ingtar, right? everybody says hes a DF, but when does the BOOK say it???


created: 2002-04-13 11:29:54
subject: <b>Where did you that picture from?!!</b>
body:
Moridin_2000: I assume the picture with your personal info is Vimes in &quot;Guards Guards.&quot; If so, where did you get it? Did you draw it yourself?


created: 2002-06-18 23:12:28
subject: <b>Elaida's Fate</b>
body:
Elaida might possibly redeem herself but she is far too proud and certain of her eventual success to ever work with Egwene. I see the greatest likelyhood being that she inadvertantly helps out. <br /><br />As for the Aes Sedai being under Rand, it is very unlikely.  Elaida was Red and Fain got to her so she will never help or support Rand in any way. Egwene cares for Rand but her sense of duty to the Tower is too strong, she would never put up with Aes Sedai in that position.  Remember how angry she is when she hears rumours of Aes Seadi serving Rand.  Elayne loves him but still thinks that Rand should bow to Egwene (like that is ever going to happen).<br /><br />Perhaps the Asha'men and Aes Sedai will eventually work together, but a lot would have to happen before they will all work under Egwene or Rand alone.


created: 2002-08-06 16:59:47
subject: <b>um,ok, sure</b>
body:
Yes, we all know that Elaida has pride, but the kind of pride she has is commonly known as hubris(foolish pride). Lets look at what we know already. She's done a fine job of muffing everything she's put a hand to, i.e., the kidnapping of Rand and the whole Black Tower fiasco. Yes, she does have the Fortelling, but did you ever notice that she twists it to fit what she wants to happen? She never takes into account that it may not even pertain to her. Anyway, since she does have such a large amount of hubris, and I do mean tons of it, then she most likely won't be redeemed, since she won't ever entertain the possiblity thet she's not doing things in the right way.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">DO NOT TRIFLE WITH DRAGONS, FOR YOU ARE CRUNCHY, AND TASTE GOOD WITH CATSUP......</font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-10 11:53:27
subject: <b>not so sure</b>
body:
I think the hubris arguement is a strong one for the downfall of elida, also RJ has spent too much time on the cuilendar plot for it to just disapear.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Getting an education was a bit like a communicable sexual disease. It made you unsuitable for a lot of jobs and then you had the urge to pass it on. <br />-A thought by Susan Sto Helit<br />Hogfather<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-24 23:48:41
subject: <b>Aiel oath</b>
body:
I had thought that the &quot;On the last day&quot; was simply Rand completing the Aiel oath thingy that he was dredging up from the core of his being.  I don't think it has anything to do with the use of that sa'angreal.  However, I think you're right in saying that it will be used at the last battle.  Why wouldn't Rand use such a powerful weapon?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">cynic79</font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-25 00:00:40
subject: <b>NO RELEVANCE TO THE THEORY</b>
body:
GALINA'S GAY<br />THAT'S OK<br />NO ONE LIKES HER ANYWAY <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Hearts, stars, and horsheshoes,<br />Clovers and blue moons,<br />Pots of gold and rainbows, and me red balloons!!!<br /><br />If you go back in time and kill yourself, what would happen?<br /><br />Is that a penis in your pocket, or are you just happy to see me.<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-25 05:51:43
subject: <b>A bit of a disagreement</b>
body:
<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />. I don't know if that part really refers to the last battle since it was part of that Aiel saying which described for how long they would fight. However i find it extreme possible that these two Sa'angreals will be used in the last battle.


created: 2001-06-25 12:09:33
subject: <b>The theory of the Sa'angreal use in the Last Battle</b>
body:
Remember, in the Age of Legends the Choedan Kal were made specifically to imprison the Dark One.  The women sat on their hands, though, and wouldn't complete that.  Therefore Lews Therin took a desperate and successful (but costly) gambit and put into effect his plan to seal the bore.  Unfortunately, no females accompanied him and thus he was unable to properly align the seven seals.  I propose that the Choedan Kal will finally be used to complete their original purpose.<br /><br />It could certainly be done, Lanfear told us that she and Rand could use those and probably challenge even the creator.<br /><br />And a prehumous comment: if I don't say this inevitably somebody will mention it thinking that they're smart.  Two of the linking Ter'Angreal were melted in the Cleansing, NOT the Choedan Kal (as far as we know).  Lanfear made it perfectly clear that other Ter'Angreal links were made to the Choedan Kal that were lost or destroyed.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Your.Master <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-25 13:11:27
subject: <b>Heritage</b>
body:
I think that episode with the sa'angreal, was more of his heritage coming out. Like the thing with Mat going on constantly. The words come to him because he is Aiel.


created: 2001-06-25 16:45:11
subject: <b>Choedan Kal</b>
body:
The Choedan Kal (the access keys) are the linking ter'angreal, not the sa'angreal themselves. I don't think you can destroy those sa'angreal unless you overload them or destroy the world around them.<br /><br />And although Rand will probably use the sa'angreal, mumbling the quote was either recalling his Aiel ancestors, or physically remembering when Loial first met him and confused him for an Aiel.<br /><br />Just my 2 coppers. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Timekeeper<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Guardian of the Wheel <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />--The Creator made women to please the eye and trouble the mind. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br />--Kittens tangle your yarn, men tangle your wits, and it's simple as breathing for both. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-25 18:27:16
subject: <b>The eye</b>
body:
I agree with the idea of using the Choedan Kal.  I believe the current seal over the bore will be purposly destroyed.<br />This is because of something Fel said about taking away debree or something along those lines and I believe he found <br />out how to seal the Dark One the way it was sealed before the AOL.  Another thing I believe will play a large part<br />in the Last Battle will be the Eye of the World.  Here is something to consider if the Choedan Kal exists finished<br />in the present and Lanfear Knows of it being completed that means they were made before the Dark One's prison<br />was sealed (All the forsaken but Ishamael were bound, so how did she know they were finished?).  I also highly doubt they<br />would have been finished after the taint was on the male half.  There is statements saying that the Aes Sedai weren't ready<br />to use the Choedan Kal and the female Aes Sedai kept to the idea of using it, but the male Aes Sedai following LTT didn't <br /> believe there was enough time to finish what was needed so they went to seal the bore.  What wasn't finished yet, if the <br />Choedan Kal exists today?  I believe what wasn't finished was the Eye of the World.  The eye wasn't made until after<br />the taint was on Saidan.  Here are some quotes from the Eye of the World.<br /><br />Moraine speaking about the Eye &quot;No one living knows.  Neither the how, nor more of the why than that it would be needed<br /> one day, and that that need would be the greatest and the most desperate the world had faced to that time. Perhaps ever would face.&quot;<br /><br />Moraine:  &quot;I begin to wonder, The Eye of the World was made against the greates need the world would ever face, but was it made for the use to which... we... put it, or to <br />guard these things?  ( things being the horn, a seal, and the banner).<br /><br />I believe the greatest need would be during the last battle to perhaps help seal the Dark One's prison the way<br />it was before it was drilled into.<br />Throughout the book Rand is continually told that the eye will not serve him.  Loial says that that he heard<br />the Dark One wants to blind the Eye of the World.  The Dark One is also called sightblinder.  This means that<br />the Dark One absolutly doesn't want the Eye of the World to be used.  The number one reason could be that if Rand figures<br />out how to make it &quot;serve him&quot; he can imprison the Dark One.  <br /><br />There is more I could add, but this is already way, way too long.  Maybe I'll spend some time posting it in the theory section.  <br />Just one more thing.  Loial also asks Moraine something along the lines of, &quot;can the Dark One do that blind the eye<br />of the great serpant?  There are parts in later books showing Rand blindfolded and there is also an eye connected to mat in min's <br />viewing.  (If Mat's &quot;give up half the light of the world to save the world is connected to the eye viewing than it would<br />make some sense... Eye of the world.... Light of the world).  I think the blindfold, Mat and eye, sightblinder could be connected to<br />the Eye of the World and what it could be used for in the Last Battle.  Even if the blindfold over Rand's eyes and the eye with Mat<br />has no connection to the Eye of the World, I believe almost certainly that the Eye plays a bigger role than what it<br />appears to in the end of Book one.<br />


created: 2001-06-26 09:41:18
subject: <b>The eye of the world...</b>
body:
We know when the Eye was made! recall Rand's journey in the Rhuidean Ter'Angreal, his ancestor meets Aes Sedai who are preparing something, with &quot;young males, not yet touched by 'it'... They must do it before it is too late... it will be needed in the future...&quot; Those are not the words, but the meaning is the same: the Eye was made during the Breaking, by males who sacrificed themselves so the Eye would be pure, exempt of the Taint.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b><font color="dark yellow">A</font><font color="red">n</font><font color="orange">an</font><font color="red">k</font><font color="dark yellow">e</font></b><br />Creator of the <i>Glistering and Shining New and Improved Advanced Warder Spoon</i><br />Warder to Corail<br />Disciple-restaurator of WOOPAH!&#8482;<br />Vice-President of <b>BucketBaby's</b> fanclub -She Rocks!<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-26 11:13:54
subject: <b>Yeah</b>
body:
Reread what I wrote.  I said that the Choedan Kal was made before the taint.  The eye was made<br />after the taint was on Saidan.  That is why the Aes Sedai had to work so hard so the taint was not on the eye.<br />If you reread what it says in the books when Rand is seeing through the eyes of his ancestors the Aes Sedai are<br />saying &quot;The world rests on this!  The future! The wheel itself!&quot;  &quot;They are young and inexperienced, but barely touched by the taint&quot;<br />In the &quot;Eye of the World&quot;  Moraine says something about the sacrafice they paid to keep<br />the Eye free from the taint (Both the women and male Aes Sedai died).  So reread<br />what I wrote, I never said that we didn't know when the Eye was made.  I said we KNOW when the Eye and the<br />Choedan Kal were made.


created: 2001-06-27 15:04:06
subject: <b>What if...</b>
body:
What if Rand used the Choedan Kal without the access Ter'Angrael?  He would probably be burned to a crisp and take out nearby mountains/cities/continents in the process.  Wouldn't that be a cute way to end the series?


created: 2001-06-30 13:51:05
subject: <b>Right on with that thought</b>
body:
Rand screws the pooch and kills off everyone by using the big CK with now key to buffer him.<br /><br />   Then Shaitan takes over and has the black Ajah organize broadway style musicals in the street with the children of dark.<br /><br />   Mat decides that he's so depressed that his best buddy is dead that he's gonna become a drunk. Then he realizes that he'd have to live with comparisons to the Thom who does it sooo much better. Then he decides to get addicted to super kaf.<br /><br />   Perrin realizes that Wolves should be the dominant and goes on a killing spree. Faile deciding that she loves her husband so much, decides to raise sheep as livestock so that the wolves can be well fed.<br /><br />   Elaida a Roihan and Verin Mathwin decide to devote themselves to starting a new ajah since the Reds are now perfectly usless. Then they remember that the dark one is in charge now and decide to go to Ebou Dar and work as strippers.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-12 03:20:24
subject: <b>Linked use of the Big Things</b>
body:
I say that Rand, Logain, Narishma or someother respected Ashaman shall have control of a circle of Amen &amp; Asedai to wield the big saangreals. For the other one a woman would lead the combined circle.<br /><br />If it was some other ashaman, that would mean there is Logain using Callandor, 2 circles using the CK &amp; Rand doing what ever he bloody well feels like during TG.<br /><br />Good Odds, the way the Forsaken are dropping like flys &amp; becoming Morindid's pets.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Keeper of Aquatic Mammals <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-07-31 13:54:51
subject: <b>The Eye of the world</b>
body:
is used up, it was only lots of Saidin brought into this world from whatever dimention it exists in. there's no need for the Eye now that Sidin has been cleansed...


created: 2002-08-31 06:50:07
subject: <b>Death of Dark one</b>
body:
Do you agree with in saying that rand with the Choedan khal will instead of reaseling the dark one forever will simply kill him.  It is possible as Lanfear said because before the breaking they were never testeded and lews therin would have sealed the dark one with his own power.  Lews therins power compared to the choedan khal is infinitely minute as they said kinda. <br />So Rand Could effectively Kill the Dark One for good and bring about the new age of paradise or whatever as the tinkers talked about instead of resealing him again and haveing another Lews thering/Rand al'Thor reborn and reseal the dark one again.<br />That is how i believe that it will finish as


created: 2002-10-10 15:33:14
subject: <b>RE: The Last Day of the Last Battle</b>
body:
Okay this is in response to the whole The Last Day of the Last Battle post by saion naroke. While commend the use of the phrase &quot;El Roberto&quot; I just cant agree with the theory and here is why.<br />Okay so he goes into trance infront of the giant Sa'angreal and says &quot;Power filled him. <br />He was one with the sphere... <br />into the shadow with teeth bared... <br />to spit in sightblinder's eye... <br />Power to break the world.&quot;<br />Ending with &quot;ON THE LAST DAY&quot; (I cut and pasted the quote from saion narokes post so if they are wrong...)<br />Okay at this point in the series Rand is  afraid of the one power and you find out that when he gets Callandor and the Keys that he is afraid of that much power fear of what he would do with it(a good example of something that a young Rand would be afraid of is breaking the world again) so I feel that explains that part.  <br />In reference to the spit in sightblinders eye on the last day... part  that is supposed to clue us into Rand's Aiel heritage which has been being hinted at but not yet laid out.  I feel it has nothing to do with prophecy...  Dissagree if you want that is what makes this fun.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Mjolner <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bobbafett.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br />Somewhere, something incredible <br />is waiting to be known. <br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-24 00:59:16
subject: <b>Maybe someone but not Rand</b>
body:
Someone may indeed use these in the last battle but it will be Callandor that Rand uses on that day.  Rand will use Callandors fatal (and I mean fatal literaly) flaw to overdraw on the power through the third most powerfull weapon ever made.  Only this will give him the power to reform the dark ones prison.


created: 2003-02-10 18:40:04
subject: <b>antagonistic pairing of chaneling</b>
body:
With the True Power a very real danger to Rand and nothing like it for the good guys to use. I believe that the Eye of the World is more than just a huge well of saidan, free from the taint even though it is now empty. With little or no proof except that only those with great need can find it and the jumara not yet maturing, I think Rand and his fellows will have to go find the Eye and open the thing! He'll need to use immense force to open it as it's a ter'angreal that allows male channelers to wield the light! There's all this talk about the &quot;light&quot;, the uncanny link between eye and light, and how the amount of light Rand will need will blind the eye of the world because it will never open again. Hence the double dawn since the strike will be made at dawn the sun rising in the East and the &quot;light&quot; from the west of TG. Rand will also be blinded or get a cyclops from X-men problem = Rand blindfolded.<br /><br />Full of holes, a couple of leaps of faith and plenty of things that would have to happen still, but RJ's still got two books. It COULD happen.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> If you could choose the world you lived in? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> - servant of <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /> - <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-13 15:53:10
subject: <b>.</b>
body:
The Choeden Kal are the huge sa'angreals.  The smaller ones are the access keys.  And wasn't the female access key destroyed at the end of Winter's Heart? If so, the female Choden Kal is basically useless unless Elayne discovers how to make another female access key (highly unlikely).


created: 2003-02-25 12:03:01
subject: <b>ummm</b>
body:
Wasn't it the male one that was destroyed? Or do i have to reread for like the 6th time? And even if elayne can make a new one, would she want to?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ph33r d4 133t! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />ph33r m4 4ut|-|ority! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-08-31 15:16:20
subject: <b>Corrections</b>
body:
It was the female access key destroyed (left on the ground to be picked up by an unwary female who does not know the danger).<br /><br />However, there were more than 2 access keys made, so let`s start looking for them, before the bad ones find them.<br /><br />The Eye of the World has been used up, and likely overrun by the Blight.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2004-04-19 05:57:21
subject: <b>I got some many considerations</b>
body:
Note: If the choedan kal together would be powerful enough to hold the dark one - look at what you're talking about! A whole out of this world being as powerful as the creator! The Source drives the pattern, and the choedan kal in the pattern uses the source, so it is possible that enough of the source can be handled to do something to the two celestrial beings creator and DO. Makes more sense than the source being made by the creator (something made inside a pattern cannot harm its creator with that much ease). ANYWAYS<br /><br />RJ mentioned in the Guide that saidin and saidar woven together would be ten times as more powerful as apart. So based on that word for word, the male choedan kal could not hold the DO in his prison ALONE.<br /><br />Another thing to consider if the sharing of the choedan kal. You know how Asmo and Ran each got half of the male twin when they touched the ter'angreal that LETS THEM TOUCH the male sa'angreal. So, if a giant circle of perhaps over...what was the number? 72? well, half male half female is strongest, but...just listen. If the least amount of males in a circle with the largest amount of females in it...the females could divide the flow almost 1/50th for each person, and the controller of the circle could use it as one flow. Might provide safety. Alternatively we could grab every single woman in the tower, sea folk, aiel, and let them all touch it - much less flow each handles, but hundred's of flows.<br /><br />Hmmm....i will post this as a theory later!


created: 2005-11-08 04:22:03
subject: <b>Just a quote to help</b>
body:
Just to help decide for those people who think the male ter'angreal was the one broken at the cleansing, I quoted it down here.<br /><br />Cadsuane let the thing that had been a ter'angreal drop to the ground. It could no longer be called a statue of a woman. The face was as wisely serene as ever, but the face was broken in two and lumpy like bubbled wax where one side had melted, including the arm that had held the crystal sphere now lying in shattered fragments around the ruined thing. The male figure was hole, and already tucked away in her saddlebags. Callandor was secured, too. It was best not to leave temptation on the open hilltop.<br /><br />Hope that helps.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">We rode on the winds of the rising storm,<br />We ran to the sounds of the thunder.<br />We danced among the lightning bolts,<br />And tore the world asunder.</font><p></p>


created: 2006-03-28 11:45:11
subject: <b>I think we know now..</b>
body:
That the female CK was indeed destroyed during the cleansing.  Both the access key and the &quot;parent&quot; statue were destroyed.  Anyways, still an interesting theory.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Me - &quot;So what you're saying is, he's not the brightest crayon in the box.&quot;<br />Joe - &quot;What, does that mean he's a deep chartruese??&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-25 19:26:05
subject: <b>Nail on the head</b>
body:
That is definitly what it means, but is Logaine gonna kill off all the new dreadlords by himself or is rand gonna help first(new dreadlords = bad asha'man)and is he blind?<br /><br />    Whenever I get a theory posted I like it when people support it so, thought I'd return the favour<br /><br /><br />Kidblondeel<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-06-25 21:14:45
subject: <b>I agree</b>
body:
I absolutly agree.  I would also like to add that the begger viewing with Rand could<br />refer to his current hiding from the public eye in Winter's Heart.  Remember what he makes himself<br />look like when he goes to get Nyneava (sp?) and Avienda, Min, and Elayne bond him.  He hides who he is<br />from the public.  The discription of his disguise does resemble a begger.  <br />


created: 2001-06-26 09:43:16
subject: <b>RIGHT!</b>
body:
Both the Theory and the two previous comments on Blackboard seem right to me. I start a Logain and Rand Theory support group here and there!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b><font color="dark yellow">A</font><font color="red">n</font><font color="orange">an</font><font color="red">k</font><font color="dark yellow">e</font></b><br />Creator of the <i>Glistering and Shining New and Improved Advanced Warder Spoon</i><br />Warder to Corail<br />Disciple-restaurator of WOOPAH!&#8482;<br />Vice-President of <b>BucketBaby's</b> fanclub -She Rocks!<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-26 23:21:25
subject: <b>RE: Logain and Rand</b>
body:
The begger guise I beleive is when he is hiding in the town where they have the shield to prevent channeling and in a way there he is blind since he is without the source.


created: 2001-07-01 19:55:44
subject: <b>Black Sheep</b>
body:
Now, I haven't read alot of the theories here so I don't know if anybody has said this yet. Rand will die and Narishma will take his place. I don't have my books with me, but look up the verse Rand quotes in tSR and it says that whoever draws Callandor out after him will follow after him. Logain won't take over.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="images/personalsmilies/890.gif" />StoneDogAiel<img src="images/personalsmilies/890.gif" /><br />Warder to Bethnei Sedai<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" />Clan Chief of the Hennic Clan of Aiel(15th Clan)<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /><br />Celebrating all 10 YEARS of Wotmania! WooHoo!<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-08 05:08:49
subject: <b>I agree</b>
body:
This seems much more likely than the body switch theory.  But Black Sheep what do you think of the foretelling of Nicola <br />&quot;The lion sword, the dedicated spear, she who sees beyond.  Three on the boat and he who is dead yet lives.&quot;<br />Will Narishma be embraced by the three women(Elayne, Aviendha, and Min) and how will he be dead and yet live.  I think that yes the prophecy of he who draws out Callandor has yet to be fulfilled but to take over for Rand as the dragon reborn seems very unlikely.


created: 2002-06-09 14:20:57
subject: <b>A comment on the beggar stuf and faking his death</b>
body:
I think that Rand won't fake his death on purpose , more likely is that he will be forced to do it . Why ?<br />He will be captured with teh male A'dam by tuon and she will take him to &quot;kneel before the crystal throne &quot; .It will take time for him to revert the flow and start controling the a'dam as is possible due to the explanation moghedien gave in TSR .<br /><br />SAWA AnonymousWOTAddict AWOTA <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sawa TAWOTA <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-24 06:33:06
subject: <b>hasn't Rand already faked his death</b>
body:
the &quot;general public hasn't seen hide nor hair of Rand since the 4 darkfriend Asha'man + Dashiva tried to bump him off.<br />Apart from Far Madding, but then haven't all records of him being there been destroyed?


created: 2003-01-23 12:57:46
subject: <b>I agree with spudman</b>
body:
Rand pretty much did fake his death, maybe not intentionally but after the renegade asha man tried to kill him in cairhein , then he goes to far madding without much word, and is told that half the people think he is dead or something like that, and he stays in far madding acting like a low life.<br /><br /><br />&quot;Tell me what you eat, and I'll tell you what you are&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />My Quizine will reign Supreme!!   - The Iron Chef <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-06-25 12:21:36
subject: <b>You can't really thumbs-down this one...</b>
body:
it gives both choices.  Oh well...<br /><br />Personally, I think the taint is finite and now nonexistent.  However, we're <i>pretty</i> sure that taint would not have happened if there were females at the hundred companions' strike.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Your.Master <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-25 14:10:30
subject: <b>Haven't seen the Guide yet, but...</b>
body:
Are you sure that there were no women when it came time for LTT to seal the bore?  After all, men cannot link without a woman present.  If all of the greatest feats of the Age of Legends were performed with both men and women, then why would LTT exlude women when it came time to defend humanity in their darkest hour?<br /><br />I do think the taint is gone, and only the 3,000 years of hysteria over men channeling is what makes the current Aes Sedai cautious.<br /><br />From a certain point of view,  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Statman<br /><br />- Thinks time is more of a Mobius Strip rather than a Wheel.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-25 15:48:47
subject: <b>I think there were no women.</b>
body:
I think somewhere in the internet there's a text named the sealing of the bore.(I think it's Jordans work). It's said there that there were no women present when the bore was sealed. And I agree that it would have worked good if women and men were present. It's also said that there 2 plans how to defeat the DO, the plan of LTT and another plan of a female AS who wanted to build a new prison for the DO with the Choedan Kal.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;All universal moral principles are idle fantasies.&quot;<br /><br /> Marquis de Sade</font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-25 19:11:24
subject: <b>Lack of women didn't cause the taint</b>
body:
You can't argue that &lt;The Taint was caused by the fact that there weren't any women with LTT when he sealed the bore&gt;--the question is whether the presence of women (especially if linked with men) would have protected the men from the taint.  This is possible, but, as The Guide points out, it is also possible that both the male and femal half of the One Power would have been tainted.  The result being that both male and female channelers would have gone crazy.  If this had happened, then the breaking would have much worse.  Indeed, the world probably wouldn't have survived.


created: 2001-06-25 22:56:38
subject: <b>The text</b>
body:
The text that Wotan is speaking of is The Strike At Shayol Ghul.  You can find a link to it in the Official Links section of the Links pages here at wotmania.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="white">|</font>&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;<img src="images/personalsmilies/747.gif" /><br />Only so evil.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-26 00:51:21
subject: <b>Taint and saidar</b>
body:
I agree with Shogun-- there's no evidence that the Taint wouldn't have affected saidar as well. I think that the emphasis on the fact that there were no women present serves two purposes: 1, to show that the forces of the Light were divided during the WoP, which is how the Shadow managed to have so many victories, which is why LTT&amp;Co. needed to make a huge strike at the enemy *anyway*, so that they wouldn't lose; and 2, because there were no women present, saidar *wasn't* tainted-- therefore forcing Aes Sedai to become exclusively female, which caused women to have a good deal of influence on the continent, and all the legends surrounding AS to crop up. I mean, if you think about it, Randland *wince* would be a different place if both saidin and saidar were tainted, or if saidar were tainted and not saidin. Consider any major event in *our* history either not occurring, or occurring differently than it did-- the world would be significantly altered, no?


created: 2001-06-26 02:24:31
subject: <b>The Proof</b>
body:
Basically, I think RJ devoted so much time to explaining why the gals WEREN'T at the Strike that the Taint was caused by it. Someone should ask. Anyways, they weren't there because some stuck-up old so and so decided LTT's first plan wouldn't work and bullied all the women strong enough into agreeing not to help. It'd be great if the Red Ajah found out...all that propaganda about the men bringing the Breaking and the Taint upon themselves, and it was because the women were too sure of themselves to help, and devoted their time to something else! Hah! I'd love to see Elaida's face..... <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Ruriha Sedai <img src="images/personalsmilies/2150.gif" /><br />Aes Sedai of the Green Ajah<br />Officially On Holiday <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />Middle-Earth Kiwi <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" /><br />She Who Has Returned <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-26 16:45:06
subject: <b>Positive</b>
body:
I think the taint is gone for good.<br />It had to, because Rand became more and more &quot;sick&quot; when he channeled. If the taint is not gone, Rand would get mad befor Tarmon Gaidon, which would be a pitty <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" />=<br />I don't think the taint will come back either. Several reasons.<br /> <br />1. Now, everybody know that the Asha Man won't go mad, therfore they can be trusted. <br /><br />2. Rand is not dangering the world any longer, he can walk free (somehow I doubt that <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" />= )<br /><br />3. Now the Aes Seidai and the Asha'Man can link together and kill all the Foraken. (Nynaeve and Rand will be very strong together)<br /><br />So therfore the taint is gone.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Adele Seidai<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />Reader of WoT<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-26 17:34:15
subject: <b>How I know</b>
body:
The part about there only being men, and the reasons, is explained in the Big White Book (the guide, for fellow newbie type people).  When I say that the abscense of women &quot;caused&quot; the taint, I mean only passivly, not activly.  And I gotta read the &quot;Strike at Shayol Ghol&quot; thingy.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Efreet<br /><br />Extropian<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> Incurable Optomist <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" />Mainah<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" />Almighty ONSEC of MITSFS<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />Lover of Squaresoft, Manga, and Strategy Games<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/blush.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br />&quot;Liberate Natural Courgarness&quot;<br /><br />&quot;Reality is what you can get away with&quot;<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-26 22:27:10
subject: <b>More on no females present at the sealing</b>
body:
Newbies aside, the following quote can be found at &lt;http://www.tor.com/shayol.html&gt; (Tor's official web site where Jordan's &quot;The Strike at Shayol Ghul&quot; was first published).  The quote is located as Jordan's first footnote to the story.  &quot;1. Speculation of the wilder sort is rife among some who call themselves historians, and the discovery of this material has resulted in the expected from the usual quarters. Would the great sa'angreal have proven effective used as Patra Posae desired? Had the seals been placed by a circle comprised of men and women together, might the men, or even saidin itself, have been protected in some fasion from the Dark One's counter stroke? Or would saidar have been tainted as well? The last possibility is enough to curdle the coldest blood, yet the fact is that events transpired as they transpired, and such speculation is no more than a fireside game to frighten the gullible. Those I speak of will know who I mean.&quot;  Thus, while it is quite possible that the lack of women ALLOWED saidin to be tainted or at least didn't protect the men, the reverse is also quite possible.  Saidar could have been tainted as well and the resulting Breaking of the World caused by insane males AND females destroyed it.  It should also be kept in mind that the version of &quot;The Strike at Shayol Ghul&quot; published in The Guide is an abbreviated version of the story.  Hope this helps.


created: 2001-06-27 14:57:03
subject: <b>The Taints Gone According to RJ</b>
body:
I just wanted to point out that RJ said the taint is completely cleansed from Saidin.  He said this over an online chat that use to have a link from this website.  <br /><br />Will the taint return?  I doubt it.  I don't think RJ will use the same thing that he used to shatter his fantasy world.  That just wouldn't be very interesting.  Its always up to RJ, but I suspect he is a better writer than that.<br /><br />In fact, if RJ really wanted to, he could finish the series in a short story.  It could be something like this:<br /><br />The Wheel of Time turns... yadayadayda..  Rand trips on a stone and break his neck.  In his last moments of life, Rand hears a voice say, &quot;I win Lews Thernin.&quot;<br /><br />My arguement is basically one of aesthetics.  I am hoping that RJ has better taste than to write either of those endings.


created: 2001-06-29 08:16:46
subject: <b>The taint......</b>
body:
After RJ went to all of the trouble of eliminating the taint in WH, I sure couldn't envision him resurrecting it again, certainly if he hopes to finish the series in 4 books.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" />= Ashaman66 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" />=</font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-02 01:54:12
subject: <b>irony</b>
body:
im preparing to get flamed for this but oh well . . <br /><br />wouldnt it be a great turnaround on all those women on their high horses in wotworld if they led a hundred companions type thing and they got the taint on saidar?? persoanlly i think it would be  hilarious and very fitting considering all the abuse men get for being tainted<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">CodeBlue Signature Virus! Copy me into your signature, help me spread.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-05 02:18:46
subject: <b>about the first point in the theory...</b>
body:
I hold to the belief that the reason that LTT and Co. went insane right after they sealed the Bore, is because they were at Shayol Ghul. I mean, think about it. All the Forsaken are afraid of channeling the True Power (is that right? the power the DO grants to the Forsaken) at all, but I remember in one chapter one of them mentioning, while they are at Shayol Ghul, that using the True Power so close would destroy them. It just makes logical sense to me. The backlash by the DO would obviously be strongly felt at first at his source of power, and the farther away from Shayol Ghul you get, the lesser the effects of the Taint.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">AshaMan-at-work, who's real name is &quot;Jon Snow&quot;<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/oh.gif" border="0" /> WARG! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/oh.gif" border="0" /><br /><i>Mass Genocide is the second most exhausting sport after soccer.</i> - Loki, &quot;Dogma&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-11 18:03:51
subject: <b>To the guy who doesn't want Rand mad</b>
body:
Don't you think Rand will be mad anyway? I mean, he was certainly becoming mad before the cleansing and who knows how far he was from total madness, but think about how much tainted saidan he had to channel to cleanse it. A huge amount, I can't see how Rand won't be totally mad.


created: 2003-04-15 16:58:08
subject: <b>Gone, but not completely.......</b>
body:
The taint on saidin is gone, but the taint that has seeped into the men using saidin will probably fester and grow inside them, because that taint wasn't removed.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Serpentine is road you take , wether you see it or no.<br />Serpentine is the creature of gold.<br />Serpentine is of course the Great Serpent of time.</font><p></p>


created: 2004-09-06 17:49:53
subject: <b>Taint the TP</b>
body:
Since the DO lashed out against LTT&amp;Co. before the sealing he may have used the TP which could have put the taint effect on saidin. Which could explain the destructive nature of both the TP and taint. For the taint destroying the men who've already channeled maybe nynave (however the hell you spell it) will figure out a way to filter the taint out like rand did to saidin. Or the taint as stated above will fester and all men will end up goin the way of the ways.


created: 2005-02-16 17:23:29
subject: <b>jcatbays just made me think of something</b>
body:
in one of the beginning books (GH?) rand uses one of those stones that let you travel to the Mirrors of the Wheel to travel westward quickly. The one he choses gets him there, but each traveler sees every possible aspect of what could happen in their lives, even if the change was, say, bela ate grass in a different spot. (isnt 'bella' friend in LOTR elvish?)at the end of each life when he dies, he hears, &quot;I have won again, Lews Therin.&quot; so, if one he sees with bela being named tela(light forbid!) the only difference, couldn't he have seen in that particular life what all the forsaken would do, how he could win the last battle, etc? plot hole, or is it covered?<br /><br />Wait, i think it is covered. one, with so many lives,  rand couldnt remember all of it, and if he did, he wouldnt know which would be closest to the truth.<br /><br />sorry to waste your time...<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />good theory, however!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">-Sabin<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2008-06-11 01:51:02
subject: <b>tp, biased gender True Source,</b>
body:
How does TP transcend the physical realm and abide glued to the Male half of the True Source? The DO needed men to access  Saidin and do the tainting. <br /><br /> Wouldn't the taint spill over to the female half eventually by virtue of proximity? Perhaps the TP is what divides the male and female halves? Kind of like how TAR is to the different dimensions of existence, &quot;the space between&quot;. This way, the TP is part of the True Source, and thus is part of how the Wheel spins. The Dark One, an unwitting accomplice to existence.ha. why can't men access saidar? too much testosterone? To divide it so simply is shallowly dualistic i think. its like reducing the purpose of sexuality to just reproduction without considering the cultural role it plays. Like, how Halima can access Saidin. good start in breaking these steriotypical relationships, i think. this actually supports my theory between the Power and consciousnes<br />


created: 2001-06-26 00:04:39
subject: <b>Craziest thing I've ever said</b>
body:
Ok first things first, I completely agree with every word of this theory.<br /><br />       Now here is one of my own.  Verin is Mat's Daughter from the future.  That's right! She can lie, Aes Sedai in future will not swear the oaths.  She can do things others can't.  <br /><br />      Now my biggest piece of evidence, in TGH when Rand is trying to choose a symbol on a portal stone Verin says,<br /><br />   like my father always said &quot;It's time to toss the dice&quot;<br /><br />Now that would be one hell of a twist, she could've gone to the foxy people and asked to be sent into the past.  And They'd of done it too.<br /><br />Well thats all<br /><br />Kidblondeel<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-06-26 00:18:06
subject: <b>No that's not all</b>
body:
I left something out, Mat's sister Bode can channle, and so can Tuon his soon to be wife, so therefore he has the one power in his blood, And I'm not sure if this means he could possibly learn to channel, because that would be really messed up, but he could definitly have a daughter who channled aka Verin<br /><br />Kidblondeel<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-06-26 05:53:28
subject: <b>In answer to Kidblondeel</b>
body:
I too have pondered about that incident and I believe that Verin's father was one of the generals in Mat's head.  This just points to the fact that she is VERY old, and possibly lived her life in several identities, much like the Kin.  She suggests this herself in WH.  Her father was probably one of those generals from Far Madding who for Hawkwing or something.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Lironj (LEE-ron-JAY): A person around whom the Wheel of Time weaves all surrounding life-threads, perhaps ALL life-threads, to form a Web of Destiny.<br />See also Pattern of an Age; ta&#8217;maral&#8217;ailen <br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-26 07:50:38
subject: <b>Responce to Lironj</b>
body:
The last genaral in mats head died in 2000 AB the curent time is 3000 AB That wood makr Verin about a milenia old.<br /><br />The years are not eksakt as the calendars have cangest some 3 times sins the braking.


created: 2001-06-26 13:58:11
subject: <b>Respons to answers and responses.</b>
body:
The main proof against Verin being the daughter of Mat is that we know that she was born and raised in Far Medding, don't we? I think there are many gamblers out there and &quot;it's time to toss the dice&quot; is a kind of proverb in WoTworld. If you can find more proof maybe you'll convince me but one quote is enough.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;All universal moral principles are idle fantasies.&quot;<br /><br /> Marquis de Sade</font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-26 14:53:02
subject: <b>This is amusing...</b>
body:
Nearly all of the blackboard posts are not in response to the theory at all.  It certainly WOULD be an interesting plot twist for the series.  But she would have to have been put back in time some 80 years(at least!) before the series began.  But about growing up in Far Madding.  I can see someone like Mat who hates channeling living in Far Madding later on, couldn't you?  This is by far the looniest theory I have ever heard.  I like it.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Vercingetorix<br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/803.gif" /><br />Theory Post Admin<br /><br />I went to the doctor the other day and all he did was drain some blood from my neck.  Don't ever go to Doctor Acula.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-26 23:35:15
subject: <b>Verin the gamblers Daughter</b>
body:
Damn, If I'd've known that I was gonna get this kind've response just from something on the blackboard I'd of made it into a theory and tried to get it posted with my Shacklance, and Isam/Luc theories.<br /><br />Kidblondeel<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-06-27 14:48:03
subject: <b>Verin the Darkfriend Rumors Gone for Good</b>
body:
The &quot;Verin the Darkfriends Rumors Gone for Good&quot; was a very well reasoned theory.  Thank you for taking the time to research it and post it.<br />


created: 2001-06-27 17:02:58
subject: <b>Simply Staggering</b>
body:
You took the time to make a long thought out explanation for what I thought was obvious. This theory was so big I took two days to finish reading it. I am really impressed!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-27 17:43:51
subject: <b>Er...I've got another two on her!</b>
body:
The next will be posted tonight if I can get it typed out. It is only 2 pages...and on Verin's cause having nothing to do with the Dragon Reborn.<br /><br />The third is a little trickier and might take a couple of days to write up. It's on what I think Verins cause really is and it takes a lot from the fact that she isn't Black or has any 70-year plots on the Dragon Reborn. I think that most people will like it but it will maybe be even longer! Im basically trying to convince EVERYONE on this third theory, and since I have the proof......<br /><br />I did post my ideas on her cause way back after WH was released under a post called Verin the Mysterious. Some may remember it, but Im not all that sure that it has been resurfaced since. Oh and its VERY much more beliveable than timetravelling, daughters with gambling streaks. I have proof, indeed nearly 3 pages...<br /><br />Thanks for the nice comments! <br />Moridin_2000<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="blue"><img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /> <b>PROUDLY CELEBRATING 10 YEARS OF WOTMANIA!</b></font> <img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /><br /><br /><font color="purple"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <b>FAQ and WoT Admin</b></font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><font color="gray"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> <b>Part-time Philosopher of the Wheel</b> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /></font></font><p><a href="/wotmessageboard2showmessage.asp?MessageID=107993" target="_blank">New WoT quizzes!</a></p><p></p>


created: 2001-06-28 01:51:09
subject: <b>Elza?</b>
body:
Was Elza a darkfriend?  I didn't even remember anyone named Elza, and I just finished rereading the path of daggers, but when I saw the quote i remembered the character, though still not the name.  Anyway, that's besides the point.  She was a black sister?  I didn't knwo that at all..<br /><br />johan


created: 2001-06-28 02:08:07
subject: <b>what about Cadsuane</b>
body:
I just want to preface this by saying that I agree with you on Verin not being black.  But in WH, Verin is just seconds away from poisoning Cadsuane.  This is directly contrary to the &quot;thou shalt not harm another sister&quot; oath.  Did she maybe get that oath removed?<br />I don't know, but I'm just curious as to your thoughts about that one part.  Other than that, great job.


created: 2001-06-28 05:47:37
subject: <b>Replies</b>
body:
Firstly Elza is quite a minor character, but you find out that she is a Darkfriend when she is fighting off the Forsaken in the WH finale and she thinks how the Great Lord wouldnt mind if she killed off a renegade, as long as she doesn't kill one of the Chosen. However that 'renegade' was Aginor. Doh!<br /><br />As for the poisoning of Cadsuane, it can be explained, but in another theory. <br /><br />Anyway, there's still no such oath about harming sisters. The Oaths are:<br /><br />1. Not to speak a word that is untrue<br />2.Not to forge weapons so that a man may kill another<br />3. Not to use the OP as a weapon except in the defence of your own life, that your Warder or another sister.<br /><br />So really there is a MASSIVE loophole. You can kill anyone as long as its not with the OP. And you can do all thats stuff that Cadsuane does, however, the problem is what Tower Law says. I think that Verin says 'the Tower took a harsh view on sisters that fell foul of the Law'. I know that is common sense, but if know one finds out.....<br /><br />Just another bit of speculation...we've seen the Black Ajah break the first and third Oaths, but they havent made any weopons as yet. Will we see this when the Dreadlords appear on the scene? Power wrought sword and the like? And if we do, will the WT have to keep up to defend themaselves? Abandoning one Oath is the first step to abandoning them all...<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="blue"><img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /> <b>PROUDLY CELEBRATING 10 YEARS OF WOTMANIA!</b></font> <img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /><br /><br /><font color="purple"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <b>FAQ and WoT Admin</b></font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><font color="gray"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> <b>Part-time Philosopher of the Wheel</b> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /></font></font><p><a href="/wotmessageboard2showmessage.asp?MessageID=107993" target="_blank">New WoT quizzes!</a></p><p></p>


created: 2001-07-01 02:22:34
subject: <b>Verrin is good!</b>
body:
I just wanted to help point out one more fact. Verin channeled inside the stedding, but Cadsuine channeled in Far Madding. Maybe Verrin has a well too.


created: 2001-07-03 19:22:05
subject: <b>Well interpret another way...</b>
body:
...Others have pointed out times when it doesn't take channelling to tell is someone is souless. Recall in TDR that Sheriam touched the grayman, gasped and pulled back her hand, then was surrounded by a white nimbus. That means she knew it was souless BEFORE she touched the power. That is the only way that the Ogier could have determined that (aside from observation) their lost brother was an empty shell.<br /><br />   BY the way I think Verin is smart enough to have figured out that the Black Ajah could circumvent the 3 oaths by using the rod again. She may have decided to try it herself just to prove the point. Once she was free of them she may have decided it was more practical to keep them off. This could account for that whole 'Moiraine sent me, I never sent Verin' thing.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-17 19:33:46
subject: <b>Verin is not bound by the 3 oaths the other sisters are</b>
body:
She lied in Far Madding when asked what her name was. Even the other sisters where taken aback by her blatant lie. Btw Cadsuane knows enough about Verin to not trust her.


created: 2001-07-24 16:38:24
subject: <b>She didn't lie</b>
body:
She said 'You may call me Eadwina'. That is very different from 'I am Eadwina'. The other sisters were just surprised thtat she should need to hide her identity<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="blue"><img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /> <b>PROUDLY CELEBRATING 10 YEARS OF WOTMANIA!</b></font> <img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /><br /><br /><font color="purple"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <b>FAQ and WoT Admin</b></font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><font color="gray"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> <b>Part-time Philosopher of the Wheel</b> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /></font></font><p><a href="/wotmessageboard2showmessage.asp?MessageID=107993" target="_blank">New WoT quizzes!</a></p><p></p>


created: 2001-08-01 14:28:35
subject: <b>VERIN=MESAANA</b>
body:
I'm sorry.  After reading the books twice, I'm getting the feeling that Verin isn't just your ordinary Darkfriend, she's a genuine Forsaken.  Just a few hints found along the way.  One being that Mesaana had on a bronze dress with scrollwork on the hem when meeting with one of the Black Ajah in the White Tower.  It's mentioned in WH that Verin wears a bronze dress.  Mesaana is also very elusive and does not show up at many Forsaken meetings.  She's not mentioned during the cleansing of saidin scene, probably because Verin is there doing other things; suspicious no less.  (What happened to Kumira?)  Numerous times in Cairhien, Verin is noted to being somewhere among the Aiel tents but no one knows for sure her location.  She's probably meeting Black Ajah (who don't know her identity) in the WT or having meetings with other Forsaken.  And, of course, the first clue was in BK2 when Moiraine tells Rand that she did not send Verin to help him.  Moiraine, by the way, also warns Rand that he shouldn't trust Aes Sedai, including Verin.  I think that Moiraine was on to her and when she comes back, light willing, Moiraine will be Verin's downfall.<br />


created: 2001-08-04 17:37:05
subject: <b>Please dont even entertain that idea!</b>
body:
Verin cannot be Mesaana!!!! She is much too weak, has a long history in the Tower, cant even use Compulsion properly, has a 70-year plan, hasnt tried to kill anyone....need I go on?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="blue"><img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /> <b>PROUDLY CELEBRATING 10 YEARS OF WOTMANIA!</b></font> <img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /><br /><br /><font color="purple"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <b>FAQ and WoT Admin</b></font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><font color="gray"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> <b>Part-time Philosopher of the Wheel</b> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /></font></font><p><a href="/wotmessageboard2showmessage.asp?MessageID=107993" target="_blank">New WoT quizzes!</a></p><p></p>


created: 2001-09-29 14:57:10
subject: <b>Verin is NOT Mesaana</b>
body:
In addition to all of the excellent reasoning in the main post (all of which I agree with) and Moridin 2000's response to the suggestion that Verin=Messana, there are Verin's thoughts during the battle at the end of WH.  <br /><br />&quot;Verin frowned at the apparition making its way through the trees off to her left.&quot;  WH p. 646.  Verin doesn't recognized Graendal or a strieth (the misty color changing dresses from the AoL that Graendal wears).  Messana would know what a streith is and would certainly recognize her fellow Forsaken.<br /><br />When deciding what to use on Graendal, Verin thinks, &quot;A sheild, she decided.  A captive Forsaken might prove very useful.&quot;  Not a thought Messana would have.<br /><br />Then she tries to shield her and her attempt fails.  She is shocked and thinks, &quot;The woman was already embracing saidar, though no light shown around her...&quot;  Mesaana would know about inverting weaves to hide your strength and holding the power.


created: 2001-10-03 11:18:37
subject: <b>Moiraine and Verin</b>
body:
I just had a thought. As far as the &quot;Verin lied to Ingtar&quot; thing, do you think she could have used Compulsion on Moiraine? Verin obviously has some ulterior motive, and I'm sure wants to stay near the Ta'veren, specifically Rand. However, they wouldn't trust her without some shred of proof. So, she compels Moiraine to send her (this isn't using the OP as a weapon, so it doesn't violate the oaths). Now, she isn't lying, and Rand knows Aes Sedai cannot lie. One thing that confuses me though...when Rand said Verin said Moiraine sent her, Moiraine was obviously a bit surprised, frowning and whatnot. Why didn't she ask Rand exactly what was said? Moiraine has run into Black Ajah before, she isn't like most of the Aes Sedai around that time, with the Black Ajah being forbidden from being mentioned.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b> <i> KLitke7967 </i> </b></font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-30 17:43:18
subject: <b>I Don't agree (fully)[minority of one by the looks]</b>
body:
Firstly let me make it clear that I don't believe Verin is a darkfriend.  I just don't think it's anywhere near certain yet.<br /><br />Dealing with the theory:<br /><br />Darkfriend orders are generally varied (sometimes seemingly opposite) whilst Bors may have been given freedom to kill Mat &amp; Perrin it doesn't mean the others were.  Verin (assuming she was a darkfriend) could easily have received different orders and from a different source.<br />Also It seems to me that she may not have any link to the dark one YET, but may be planning to tip the balance at a key moment and take the inevitable dark reward.<br /><br />I don't think that killing Mat could be described as a 'main B.A. goal', it was incidental, if his death was so important, it could have been easily achieved in the white tower-or elsewhere.<br /><br />Events in the two rivers were driven mostly by Padan Fain, who we know has his own motives, it is unlikely they were part of any 'dark masterplan', even if they were, darkfriends are renowned for competing against each other.  Verins actions here certainly don't rule out her being with the shadow, nor does her antagonism to Luc/Isam, whom most of the Forsaken seem to be wary of.<br /><br />Suiane and Moiraine had little choice BUT to include Verin (G.H.)They couldn't really expect to get away with killing her, we know in fact that Moiraine DOESN'T trust her.<br /><br />With regards to Verin being happy to swear to Rand, she has shown herself desperate to be close to him (and his friends) on many occasions.  What better way to gain his trust ? Particularly if the oath means nothing as you are no longer constrained by the 3 oaths.  Again no proof that she walks in the light to be found here.<br /><br />1/ Ingtar<br />    Ingtar was desperate to atone for his misdeed, he was hardly doing the dark ones work, and would have been trusted by a darkfriend even less than anyone else.<br /><br />2/ Luc<br />    Luc/Isam has a strange relationship with other darkfriends, you cannot really tell how any of them will react to him<br /><br />3/ Alruddin<br />    Alruddins escape would concern anyone, light or dark who had plans invested in Rand.<br /><br />4/ Elza<br />    Verins possible compulsion of Elza is the best reason I've seen FOR Verin being black.  It is inconceivable that a true friend of Rands would allow a black sister to remain (undiscovered) close to him.  Much less at such a critical/vulnerable time as the cleansing of saidin(and Elza had access to an angreal at this time also).  We know that compulsion isn't perfect, suppose Elza changes her mind at the key moment-game over.  If Verin knows of Elzas black status the only reason to leave her there, is in the hope of using her in some way towards Verins own ends.<br /><br />Again, I like Verin and don't think she is a darkfriend. I do believe that she could very easily be however.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">For every soul lost through hatred in this world, ten are lost through indifference.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-12-27 04:53:59
subject: <b>The captive Forsaken quote and Cadsuane &quot;poisoning&quot;</b>
body:
I just did a re-read, and took long hard looks at Verin's PoV's. The theory posted was very well done, but I think the end of WH tops it off. There are two relevant quotes, both in reference to Graendal.<br /><br />1) &quot;And unless Verin was very much mistaken, she was one   of the Forsaken.&quot;<br />2) &quot;A captive Forsaken might prove very useful.&quot;<br /><br />The simple fact that Verin's PoV contained the word Forsaken instead of Chosen tells me she is not a darkfriend. Looking through all her other passages (although i nipped that out of the end of the book and am not quite through WH again) I have not seen one non-spoken quote that said anything about the Dark One or the Great Lord or any other hint of that type.<br /><br />If Verin was Black, or for that matter Mesaana (which she couldn't be and know what was going on in the Tower with Alvarian etc etc anyways) the word would have been Chosen. I think this one word should top off the arguement, imo anyways. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />The other point I wanted to make was Verin &quot;poisoning&quot; Cadsuane. First, a quote from when Verin was about to use compulsion on Beldeine. &quot;One of the smaller effects of this weave was to loosen the tongue and open the mind as well as any herb ever could, an effect that came on quickly.&quot; (PoD p. 2<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />The next quote is a bit long to type out, but the gist of it is that Cadsuane says Rand can do whatever he wants as long as he lives to reach Tarmon Gai'don and she can teach him to laugh and cry again. Then she says she's in a confiding mood, at which point &quot;Verin slipped the small vial back into her pouch unpened. It was good to be sure of Cadsuane at last.&quot; (WH, hardcover p. 495)<br /><br />If it was poison Verin was slipping into Cadsuane's tea, that was hardly the admission that would have made her stop if she was Black Ajah. Seems far more likely to me that it was one of the herbs she talked about while using compulsion on Beldeine.<br /><br />Another thing that occured to me, while writing this in fact, was that perhaps all of the prisoners swearing fealty to Rand was Verin's work. Ta'veren could account for it, but I do believe (I could be wrong here though) that several of the prisoners swore while Rand was in Illian. Verin talking about giving orders but each having to find a reason within herself, and Rand's &quot;why&quot; question would fit nicely with this. Still doesn't account for her motives though. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Ok i'm done!


created: 2001-12-29 17:29:12
subject: <b>I think Verin got the vial from a wise one earlier in the book</b>
body:
x<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">For every soul lost through hatred in this world, ten are lost through indifference.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-11 05:15:50
subject: <b>A few more things...</b>
body:
<b>I don't think that killing Mat could be described as a 'main B.A. goal', it was incidental, if his death was so important, it could have been easily achieved in the white tower-or elsewhere.</b><br /><br />Well, he was attacked by Howal Gode, Lady Shiaine, Melindhra, a Darkhound, three grey men, a group of Darkfriend beggars and a Gholam. I'm sure there are others. 'Easily achieved'. I think not. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> Plus Verin had him in a very vulnerable position. She could have simply let him slip away. Also, Lanfear didn't want him dead. She was the one protecting him in the White Tower. <br /> <br /><b>Events in the two rivers were driven mostly by Padan Fain, who we know has his own motives, it is unlikely they were part of any 'dark masterplan', even if they were, darkfriends are renowned for competing against each other. Verins actions here certainly don't rule out her being with the shadow, nor does her antagonism to Luc/Isam, whom most of the Forsaken seem to be wary of.</b><br /><br />Darkfriends also are renowned for obeying Darkfriends that might be higher up than them. They don't really have a choice in that matter. Also, the Black Ajah seems to be working with other Darkfriends and not against. Also, we don't know of any of the Forsaken having knowledge of Isam. <br /><br /><b>Suian and Moiraine had little choice BUT to include Verin (G.H.)They couldn't really expect to get away with killing her, we know in fact that Moiraine DOESN'T trust her.</b><br /><br />I'm not sure why you think Moiraine doesn't trust Verin specifically. I think she rather meant all Aes Sedai, even herself. The White Tower has a different agenda. This was before Dumais Wells. Before Rand had Verin's allegiance.<br /><br /><b>With regards to Verin being happy to swear to Rand, she has shown herself desperate to be close to him (and his friends) on many occasions. What better way to gain his trust ? Particularly if the oath means nothing as you are no longer constrained by the 3 oaths. Again no proof that she walks in the light to be found here.</b><br /><br />But would there not be penalties to helping the Dragon Reborn? Remember Asmodean the Traitor....Do you that Verin would ast longer than him. She didn't just swear the Oath and forget about him. She is actively helping him.<br /><br /><b>1/ Ingtar<br />Ingtar was desperate to atone for his misdeed, he was hardly doing the dark ones work, and would have been trusted by a darkfriend even less than anyone else.</b><br /><br />But why would Verin want to expose him? She was certainly undermining his authority. <br /><br /><b>2/ Luc<br />Luc/Isam has a strange relationship with other darkfriends, you cannot really tell how any of them will react to him</b><br /><br />But the question isn't why she didn't get on with him. The question is why she would warn Perrin about him and want to make people suspicious of Luc's origins.<br /><br /><b>3/ Alruddin<br />Alruddins escape would concern anyone, light or dark who had plans invested in Rand.</b><br /><br />Why would it concern her if she were Black? Also, we haven't really seen anyone worry about her escape other than Verin.<br /><br /><b>4/ Elza<br />Verins possible compulsion of Elza is the best reason I've seen FOR Verin being black. It is inconceivable that a true friend of Rands would allow a black sister to remain (undiscovered) close to him. Much less at such a critical/vulnerable time as the cleansing of saidin(and Elza had access to an angreal at this time also). We know that compulsion isn't perfect, suppose Elza changes her mind at the key moment-game over. If Verin knows of Elzas black status the only reason to leave her there, is in the hope of using her in some way towards Verins own ends.</b><br /><br />But instead of using this Talent aganst Rand, she uses it to help him. And not just Elza, every Aes Sedai in the camp. I think that Verin has neutralised Elza's threat. I have another theory on Verin's dealings with the Black Ajah that might explain why she would do this.<br /><br />_________________________________________________________<br /><br /><b>there were only two black ajah at that meeting in the prologue in book 2  </b><br /><br /><br />The Darkfriends were ordered to pass the information to all their followers. I would say that one of the Supreme Council of the Black Ajah would have been present, therefore this would have passed on to all Black Sisters. Verin came from the Tower. If she were black then she would have known the orders, especially since Liandrin seems to.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="blue"><img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /> <b>PROUDLY CELEBRATING 10 YEARS OF WOTMANIA!</b></font> <img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /><br /><br /><font color="purple"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <b>FAQ and WoT Admin</b></font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><font color="gray"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> <b>Part-time Philosopher of the Wheel</b> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /></font></font><p><a href="/wotmessageboard2showmessage.asp?MessageID=107993" target="_blank">New WoT quizzes!</a></p><p></p>


created: 2002-03-01 16:47:35
subject: <b>Verin and the &quot;Poison&quot;</b>
body:
If you recall, Verin got the vial from the Wise Ones for &quot;help with sleeping and headaches&quot;. This potion would have been perfect for Verin's uses. 2 drops would induce a sound dreamless sleep, 4 would cause the person to &quot;sleep&quot; considerably longer (weeks at aguess) more would be fatal. Verin could use a small amount if she wanted to use the quasi-compulsion, or more to put her out of the way. Verin is, like most AS, slightly in awe of Cadsuanne. She does not like to see other sisters beaten (though does not let that stop her from causing additional beatings). I don't think she would try to hurt Cadsuanne, but would not mind using the compulsion on here if it were thought to be necessary.<br />Powerfull BA seem to hold &quot;True&quot; AS in contempt. Verin never shows contempt except for lunacy or foolish behavior.<br />She does have her own agenda and does seem to be outside the oaths.<br />Additionally, she is at least 300 years old by some of her recollections. When one of the Kin said she was 600 years old with little sign of aging, all the full sisters were shocked and said that was over 3X the longest lived AS on record since the Breaking. I may be wrong about the 300, but Verin does not show the obvious signs of aging that even Cadsuanne has.<br />No one knows how old Verin is or just how powerful she is. It would also have been very hard to explain away a dead Cadsuanne when a number of people knew she had been sent for by Cadsuanne.<br />I believe it has been shown that Verin is VERY smart.<br /><br />RE her journal.<br />Cyphers are often used to protect such journals. The fact that she plans to write a translation for her cypher to enable future AS access to her journals argues against any nefarious scheme against the WT or AS.<br />She almost certainly has freed herself from some or all of the 3 oaths. The fact that she has to justify to herself that what she said was not a lie give proof of that. AS do not have to justify to themselvs, because they CANNOT speak an untrue word and therefore do not need such justification. However, those not bound but trying to live by the oaths (Egwene, Elayne, Nynaeve etc.) are always coming up with justifications to what they have said.<br />These justifications of Verin's are backchecks in case anyone decided to trace back to see if she had in fact did lie. If she were caught out, she would be denounce as BA immediately regardless of anything else she had done. The only reason to be freed from the oaths would be to be replaced by a new set of oaths.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/myrddraal.gif" border="0" /> Gasper the friendly Fade <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/myrddraal.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-13 08:09:00
subject: <b>I've read it!!</b>
body:
I read the entire thing, and I almost completely agree. But I'm not going to go into it here... maybe I'll write my own theory... and you have enough comments/conversations here to last you a lifetime. Anyway, good work!!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" />Karlaan <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/myrddraal.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-29 20:38:59
subject: <b>Something I posted earlier</b>
body:
Why Verin is not Black Ajah!<br />   Submitted by wismail on 4/29/2002 8:01:01 PM <br />   First off, Verin is bound to the oath rod; her face alone tells us this. She would look like a forsaken<br />   otherwise. But that doesn't tell us if she's Black Ajah. <br />   Now the lie is just as simple to explain away. I believe Asmodeon once told Rand when he was<br />   teaching that someone bound by the oath rod would say a lie if she believed it to be true. As long<br />   as Verin could convince herself that Moiraine wanted her to be around, she would be able to say<br />   that statement. I believe she made some reference to what Moiraine thought they'd need.<br />   Therefore she hasn't lied.<br />   And if you think that Verin thinking about poisoning Cadsuane is a very un-Aes Sedai thing to do,<br />   consider this. The Three Oath's say you cannot use the one power as a weapon. What about<br />   poison? It seems to me that poisoning someone she didn't trust would be acceptable under the<br />   Three Oath's. Please point out the many flaws. I'm sure I have many.


created: 2002-07-04 15:55:58
subject: <b>Wismail:</b>
body:
While I agree that Verin is not Black Ajah, your first point is void. BA are also bound by the Oath Rod and have ageless faces (cf. Galina, Liandrin, Elza; in fact all of them). They swear a different 3 oaths (Galina tells us this in her POV in PoD). It is suspected that one of them is not to betray the Black Ajah or its plans.<br /><br />Yours, <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/myrddraal.gif" border="0" />.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">You must chop down the tallest tree in the forest with... a herring!<br /><br /><br /><font face="courier new">l(a</font><br /><br /><font face="courier new">le</font><br /><font face="courier new">af</font><br /><font face="courier new">fa</font><br /><font face="courier new">ll</font><br /><br /><font face="courier new">s)</font><br /><font face="courier new">one</font><br /><font face="courier new">l</font><br /><br /><font face="courier new">iness</font><br /><br />F<font color="#111111">a</font><font color="#222222">d</font><font color="#333333">i</font><font color="#444444">n</font><font color="#555555">g</font><font color="#666666">o</font><font color="#777777">u</font><font color="#888888">t</font><font color="#999999">a</font><font color="#AAAAAA">n</font><font color="#BBBBBB">d</font><font color="#CCCCCC">n</font><font color="#DDDDDD">o</font><font color="#EEEEEE">w</font><font color="#FFFFFF">gone</font></font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-14 21:06:41
subject: <b>A Lie depends on your POV</b>
body:
AS are bound by the oath not to lie but only if they willingly and knowlingly lie.  The fact that Verin stretches the truth could be her own delusions.  And just because she changes her name in Far Madding is nothing really, Moiraine changed her name throughout the first book unless she too was released of her oaths which I doubt.  Considering how the Black Ajah hunters in the tower snagged the Oath Rod maybe other AS did too to release any one of the three oaths.


created: 2003-10-27 01:01:49
subject: <b>I agree w/ your theories</b>
body:
I most say I agree with the facts present, and in reading your message board I see some others claim she is Mats daughter. that couild very will be and I woild go along with it as well.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-12-15 08:51:19
subject: <b>What does &quot;Win&quot; mean anyway?</b>
body:
List of characters with &quot;whin&quot; in their name:<br /><br />&quot;Bonwhin, red, Artur Hawkwing's reign&quot;<br />&quot;Bodewhin Cauthon - Mat's sister&quot;<br />&quot;Alwhin-sul'dam, so'jhin, voice of the blood, tSR 35, also in tGH&quot;<br />&quot;Norowhin - Loc 189&quot;<br />&quot;Verin Mathwin&quot;<br /><br />Now what if the suffix &quot;whin&quot; actually means something like &quot;daughter of&quot;? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Just a thought in favor of this theory.<br />


created: 2004-12-16 06:35:44
subject: <b>Verin does not have the ambition of the other BA</b>
body:
One major thing that differs from the other BA is that they all hunger for power. This characteristic I have not seen once with Verin, on the contrary.


created: 2001-06-26 04:49:19
subject: <b>the prison</b>
body:
i think that the DO is weaker only because he is imprisoned. the prison prevents him from touching the wheel and the bore lets him touch it to some degree but the creator isn't imprisoned so he can use his full strength on the wheel<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">i'm bored</font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-26 10:51:24
subject: <b>And alien deity</b>
body:
I don't remember where I read it in the books, but I remember the dark one being referred to something un natural outside the pattern.  Perhaps It's not really a balance between good and evil, it could be that there was only suppose to be good, but then the Dark on came from where ever he came and the fights between him and the creator started up.


created: 2001-06-26 14:20:02
subject: <b>Obviously...</b>
body:
Of course the Creator is more powerful!  The Creator was able to tuck the Dark One into his prison at the moment of creation.  Do you think the DO would just put up with that treatment if he could do something about it?  <br />And now for a random thought of the day...Wouldn't it have been wild to see what might happen if Mat tossed the foxhead medallion into the Eye of the World.  Since the thing blocks or negates when the Power is directly sent against it, what would it do if it came in contact with the Power in pure concentrated form?  Weird...<br /><br />P.S.  Just in case... I KNOW this can't happen.  I don't want anyone posting &quot;Idiot, Mat didn't have the medallion when they went to the Eye.&quot;  Or,  &quot;Dumbface!  The Eye's been used up!  He CAN'T toss the medallion in!&quot;  This isn't a theory, just keeping myself busy till next book.


created: 2001-06-26 21:43:33
subject: <b>Creator won battle with Dark One</b>
body:
I just wanted to echo the thoughts of the other commentors.  Obviously the Creator is &quot;greater&quot; than the Dark One since he imprisoned him (or her?).  I personally equate the Creator/DO to the Judaic God/Satan (or Be'elzabub sp?).  At one time, Lucifer (angle of lights) was Gods &quot;right hand man&quot; but they had a &quot;falling out&quot;.  Lucifer convinces 1/3 of the angles to join him in a revolt.  But, as we all know, Lucifer and his boys loose, they get &quot;cast out&quot;, and effectively imprisoned in &quot;hell&quot; (yet arguably given dominion over the earth).  I have always viewed the Creator/DO relationship akin to this.  If so, I wonder about the equivilent 1/3 of the DO's angles that were cast out (imprisoned) with him and whether the DO has &quot;dominion&quot; over Randland. <br /><br />- Tim<br /><br />*  just another guy who reads the books...<br /><br />food for thought :  <br />&quot;the doors of Heaven and Hell are adjacent and identicle&quot;<br />(last temptation of Rand...  hehehehehe)<br />&quot;the history books will always be written by the victors&quot;  <br />


created: 2001-06-26 22:51:50
subject: <b>Ying Yang</b>
body:
Just like the AS symbol, good equals that of evil...<br />We all know that Lanfear has a strong sense of love for Rand and that she would do anything to have him.<br />That, i believe, is why she said they could overthrow the dark one.<br />Because the Dark One is Rands main enemy here, he wants to destroy the Dark One once and for all, so the thought that he and Lanfear could do this might be Lanfears way of appealing to him.<br />When she mentions taking on the Creator, this is her part of the plan she throws on the end while Rand is relishing the thought of destroying the Dark One.<br />She wants to be the supreme ruler of the world, and if both the Dark One and the Creator are out of the way, then she has her ultimate dream.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/oh.gif" border="0" />) Madrox the Malevolant <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/oh.gif" border="0" />)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Dzugashvilli Incarnate<br />                  Infamous Dreadnaught<br />                  Baptist of Blasphemy<br /> <br /><i>Rules and Order are the bane of life <br /> Only chaos frees the soul</i> - Madrox Stalin</font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-26 22:55:36
subject: <b>equals</b>
body:
I think of the creator managing to imprisoning the dark one as something like Nyneave's battles against Mogedien. They are equal strength but somehow the creator managed to get the upperhand in the battle, but not neccessarily by distracting the dark one like nyneave did to mogedien<br /><br />Another part in the series that indicates that the creator and dark one are equal is the ancient aes sedai symbol. A circle that is equal parts black and white. It doesn't take a genius to figure out which parts of the symbol represent the creator and the dark one.<br /><br />I don't think lanfears comment can be taken to mean the creator is stronger. The creator seems to prefer watching rather than interfering with the world, so how could Lanfear know the creator is the stronger if she has never had contact with him? I think everyone in the books assumes the creator is the stronger because at one point no one knew about the dark one and the creator had been worshipped by everyone, even the forsaken, as the only god. Even though the forsaken think of the dark one as powerful, they had beleived in the creator for the first couple of centuries of their lives.<br /><br />I'm not sure if anything I wrote backs up my idea that the creator and dark one are equal in strength but I'm too tired to think up more thoughts.


created: 2001-06-28 08:08:07
subject: <b>The Aes Sedai symbol:</b>
body:
Guys, that doesn't represent the Dark One and the Creator.  The books tell us SO many times that the white is saidar and the black is saidin, equal and opposite forces BOTH COMING FROM THE CREATOR.<br /><br />Although I think the Creator is stronger, I've never bought the idea that the Creator was stronger just because he imprisoned the Dark One.  Isn't it rather likely that you'd be able to keep your enemy out of a world of your creation if you were exactly equal?  And vice-versa, if the Dark One created a world.<br /><br />As to the Eye thoughts on the medallion - wow, I never thought of that.  I imagine that the eye would have been sucked up, but also that the foxhead medallion would become so cold that the air around it condensed.  But that's only idle speculation.  However, even if I don't think it will happen, it's technically possible that a new eye of the world will be created in the series.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Your.Master <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-28 08:38:49
subject: <b>Speaking of which</b>
body:
What was the eye of the world supposed to do anyway? As far as I could ever tell it was essentially a really big on time use sa'angreal meant to get Rand through his first major conflict alive. Does anyone else wanna add something to that?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-28 19:09:24
subject: <b>How Well Does Lanfear Know the Creator?</b>
body:
Based on the quote at the beginning of this theory, I wouldn't say either the Creator or the DO is stronger; Lanfear says what she does because she knows (at least somewhat) how strong the DO is. After all, she swore off her soul and body to him. The Creator, on the other hand, she has never met and so can't gauge how strong he is. So, she assumes if they can take on the DO, they can take on God. .I mean the Creator. Doesn't necessarily mean that one is stronger than t'other.<br /><br />~DC


created: 2001-06-29 09:12:10
subject: <b>Really good point, DarkCavalier...</b>
body:
Ouch, that's hard to defend <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />.  But I think that the DO would have an idea as to the power of the Creator, and, after all, Mierin drilled the bore into a shield made by the Creator.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Your.Master <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-29 17:22:21
subject: <b>It goes like this.</b>
body:
The creator and Dark one are exactly equals.<br />In the moment of creation somehow the creator got the upper hand and forced the DO into his prison, I will not speculate how it happened.<br /><br />The creator then retreated from the world he had created as a prision, because if he would have stayed the Positive/Negative good/evil differences between The creator and the Dark one would have torn the place apart.<br /><br />You know the rest of the story. Umans diggin him out etc etc.<br /><br />And what Lanfear meant with &quot;With the Choedan Kal, we could rule the world. More, we could overthrow the Dark One. We could probably even challenge the Creator&quot;.<br /><br />With Choedan Kal they hold something that is probably more powerful than any of them.<br />They can easily defeat Shai ta* cuz he is partially blocked in his prison and they know where that is.<br /><br />BUT the creator has withdrawn from this world so she means they will probably not encounter him at all.<br /><br /><br />PS. Balefire Boy, that is an very intresting theory <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />I would have to guess that the world ... kinda.... explode... or ... uhh Disintergrate.... I will have to try that someday <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">~From beyond the Haze~<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-30 08:15:53
subject: <b>aFFi...</b>
body:
Part of my problem with saying that the Dark One and Creator are equals is that there is absolutely no evidence to support that theory, yet there IS evidence the other way around.  Mainly, most wotworld philosophers think so, the whole DO imprisonment thing (which I agree, isn't all that strong), and the fact that the majority of wotworlders are good people.<br /><br />Your counter-theory basically says that Lanfear, the philosophers, and the world conscience doesn't know what they're talking about, THIS is exactly how it happened.  That's how it looks to me, anyway.  Oh well.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Your.Master <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-21 21:10:30
subject: <b>Eye</b>
body:
About what Lord Savaunt said:  Could there be a better purpose for the Eye of the World than to help Rand?  Unless you believe the theory that Rand is doing exactly what the DO wants... <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="images/personalsmilies/4162.gif" /> Cat Lover<br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" />Aes Sedai to Cavrin <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" />Proud Member of Allie's Angels!<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" /> December 18th! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" /><br /><i>The challenge is to be yourself in a world that is trying to make you like everyone else.</i></font><p></p>


created: 2001-12-01 02:28:36
subject: <b>A Thought</b>
body:
Why does the dark one want the world? If the dark one is equal to the creator, why not just make your own world? Unless old grim (I like that name) is as spitful as a six year old sibling, I think he cannot create. He is also limitated within the pattern. He could not ressurect Rahvin, and he was restrained by puny little us. I think that the Creator, being a creator, does not like destroying things. Including dark one type things, and the creator is currently shaking his head at the world in near disbelief at the situation. Just a thought or two on that


created: 2002-03-12 19:41:20
subject: <b>No, no, no, no!</b>
body:
I really don't need to take up too much time with this. The simple reason that the DO and creator are equal is because R.J. said so. To quote another thing that he has said, although not verbatim. &quot;I am the god of this universe. What happens, happens only because I say so. There is nothing that happens that I don't dictate&quot; etc... So that pretty much ends the argument. As for the medallion being thrown into the eye of the world I don't think that anything would happen. It absorbs power but only that which is directed against it. I think it would remain quisient unless someone tried to direct their power against it. If you bring up the golhm my response is that I don't know. Maybe the fact that it is created by the one power has something to do with this. Sort of the idea that it can't be turned off so to speak.<br />Kael<br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> &quot;es mejor ser la mano derecha del diablo entonces estar en su camino&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angry.gif" border="0" /> I would rather be feared than loved <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angry.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-08-09 02:06:54
subject: <b>The power to defeat the DO comes from the creator</b>
body:
ok this thought occurred to me, the creator has to be stronger then the DO.  Rand is supposed to defeat the DO.  Whats Rand supposed to do this with ? The one power, and where does this come from ? It comes from the creator.So the creator has enough power to defeat the DO but he doesn't, maybe its because hes not a stereotypical creator god like in christianity , who hoping we'll turn out good , maybe he created it all for fun and likes to see what happens, like a big movie or something.  I think back to when I was a kid I would build things and play with it and eventually I'd break it and build again and keep playing. Maybe he gets his kicks from this. Anys I think the creator is stronger.


created: 2001-06-26 09:21:55
subject: <b>MPS</b>
body:
When in Tel, Isam thinks of himself as Isam. When he leaves (via some ter'angreal obviously)Tel, he thinks of himself as Luc. Why? Becuase that is the body. While the soul is still important, the body affects it: see Asan'gar who thinks of himself as female.<br />Luc died in the Blight, probably killing Isam first (&quot;... Isam met Luc in the high passes, one died , two survive...&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> Isam took his body via the DO. Isam killed Rand's dad.<br />Now, who is going to kill Isam. Perrin is possible, BUT he would be unaware of the link so that is not so dramatic.<br />Galad, however, would be aware of how his uncle looks like..<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;We wont give a fig,<br /> We'll tell you to,<br /> Go stick your head in a pig!&quot;<br />  The Sirius Cybernetics Customer Services Helpline - Share and Enjoy!</font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-26 10:00:23
subject: <b>Here's My Take</b>
body:
Luc rode off into the blight and died somehow.  As stated above, Luc and Isam may have been fighting and Luc was killed and I believe Isam was mortally wounded.  So Luc's body was sitting there and the Dark One has his little trick of giving bodies to people i.e. The 'Gars.  So, in real life, Isam now looks like Luc.  But, when he goes to Tel' Aran' Rhiod, he looks like Isam again.  The reason for this is the little trick that deals with the mind in T&quot;A&quot;R.  When people think of something, the stuff they're wearing changes to that.  Well, since Isam's entire mind is still thinking like Isam, he will become Isam.  So that's why he looks like Isam in T'A'R and Luc in real life.  Thanks<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Hey<br />You're a crazy bitch<br />But you f<i></i>uck so good, I'm on top of it<br />When I dream, I'm doing you all night<br />Scratches all down my back to keep me right on</font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-26 10:43:56
subject: <b>I've got a little proof</b>
body:
They switch around, I can't remember if it was Egwene, Elayne, or Nynaeve, or perhaps all three but they saw a man in the royal palace in Andor and he got away before any of them could catch him, but they discribed him, and the discription was Luc not Isam, so if Slayer always looks like like isam in Tel, why did Mr. Jordan Switch Now.  But I do agree that Luc could possibly be dead, but in that dark prophesy the words were<br /><br />                one lived and one died but both are...<br /><br />But I mean death isn't always a very large barrier in Wot, The heroes of the horn are all dead, but the reside in Tel while they wait to be spun out again, Tel is also filled with hundreds of dead, alive, and unborn wolves, why can't there be special circumstances for Luc in this little arangement.<br /><br />Kidblondeel<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-06-26 10:45:20
subject: <b>Luc is working for the Dark One!</b>
body:
Luc has to be, because in one book or another ( I think 7 or 8 ), Luc/Isam kills some old people, and says he wishes it was his nephew instead. Lan is Isam's cousin, so it can't be him, but Rand is Luc's nephew!!!


created: 2001-06-26 10:53:19
subject: <b>Maybe he was turned</b>
body:
Maybe he was turned just like Stone Dog Aile suggests, I mean it's more than conceivable it's likely.  But then again that still makes him a prisoner in a sense.


created: 2001-06-26 13:41:30
subject: <b>Some comments</b>
body:
I thought only channlers could be turned, Luc showed no sign of being able to channel so far. I think it can be assumed that Luc was no DF when he went to the Blight, he listened to the fortelling of Gitara (?) who said  somthing about the Shadow winning if he didn't go into the blight but I don't know the fortelling exactly. So I don't know how the relationship between Isam/Luc is and how Luc became a DF, but according to the statement above Luc seems to be evil.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;All universal moral principles are idle fantasies.&quot;<br /><br /> Marquis de Sade</font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-26 14:41:12
subject: <b>I could be wrong....</b>
body:
But I thought Tigraine was the one who got the fortelling from Gitara.  She was told to go to the waste or the world would perish.  Luc went to the Blight because he was so upset that Tigraine had disappeared, since he was supposed to protect her and all.  I think that Isam attacked him, and in some strange way they became one, with Isam's evilness taking over Luc's personality when he was Luc.  So Luc was sort of turned but not in the traditional 13 fades 13 darkfriend channelers.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Vercingetorix<br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/803.gif" /><br />Theory Post Admin<br /><br />I went to the doctor the other day and all he did was drain some blood from my neck.  Don't ever go to Doctor Acula.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-26 15:22:42
subject: <b>I thought they both got</b>
body:
a foretelling but I'm not sure either. But still the way how Isam/Luc became Slayer is a mystery to me, but maybe they were distilled together in a way related to Fain. And Isam should an very interesting person since he was propably raised at SG. Btw have you ever asked yourself what the trollocs eat? Do they have human cattle? Once it's described how a Thrakandar sword is forged and there is a need of human blood there, too.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;All universal moral principles are idle fantasies.&quot;<br /><br /> Marquis de Sade</font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-26 18:06:09
subject: <b>Of Luc and Bondage</b>
body:
Luc and Isam both seem to be friends of the dark.  It seems that both Isam and Luc coexist in one body.  Both seem to have control and preferences.  When Luc was in the Two Rivers, someone said Luc claimed to be related to the royalty in Andor.  In his first POV in Winter's Heart, there is a line that seems to indicate two personalities with separate preferences.


created: 2001-06-28 02:31:00
subject: <b>Not the DO</b>
body:
You all talk about DO giving Luc the new body, but thats kind of impossible for me. It must have been made around 20 years ago, and DO was totally prisoned at that time. Ishamael could have done something, but did he have the required strength? Also, I think Ishy is the only one who could be the master of Slayer, because he was the only free forsaken at that time.<br /><br />Viking <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-06-28 08:52:32
subject: <b>Luc's body...</b>
body:
Assume: Luc and Isam are one.<br /><br />Isam, in Tel'Aran'Rhiod, is a residual self-image of the man who has stolen Luc's body.  He does, however, sometimes use Luc's body.  We remember one of the girls (I forget which) using somebody else's body (I forget whose...helpful, aren't I?) in Tel'aran'rhiod so that nobody would suspect them.  So, Luc went, somebody died, and Isam got Luc's living body, maybe with his mind tucked away in there.  Myself, I don't think Luc is a darkfriend.  But I think that some people come to the same conclusion as I do for all the wrong reasons.<br /><br />Assume: They aren't one.<br />Why on Earth did Lord Luc run from Lord Perrin wounded after Perrin shot slayer in Tel'aran'rhiod?  Usually characters don't make connections, but even Perrin figured this one out.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Your.Master <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-30 14:14:06
subject: <b>isam hmmmmmmmmm</b>
body:
well i assumed that luc went to the blite to basically kill himself fighting the DO and ended up being merged with Isam and as others have said the only one able to pull that off at the time would have been Ishmmael he also gave him the power to enter the world of dreams at will which made him the perfect assassin , although i have the strange feeling the channeler who was ordering him to kill aes sedai could have been Mazrim Taim , as he would i`m sure be glad to get rid of some aes sedai hanging around Caemlen without any evidence pointing his way as Rand would obviously kill him as he warned him  before. Although this raises yet more questions about Taim ......... hmmmmmmmmmmmm !<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> Pastor of the church of the probable opinions <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" />  marked with the dreaded LVIII  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" />  bearer of the monolith  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> Irish man of good Celtic stock <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> ready to answer the call of the horn <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> Fourth Letter Telamon <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-13 06:13:53
subject: <b>Hey, Your.Master</b>
body:
I think it was Egwene using Faolain's body, but I'm not sure.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Green Ajah<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br />Desiring to join the Wotmania Theatre Guild<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" />Proudly sticking a spoke in the Wheel<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-14 10:31:58
subject: <b>uncles cousins and nephews, oh my!</b>
body:
somewhere around the end of the shadow rising my mind was blown by the interconnectedness of the whole darn thing, but i can never seem to conjure up the words to artuculate the thoughts i had, let me try now.<br />When malkier fell, Isam was taken and possibly raised by trollocs and myrdraal in the blight. he learned how to fight and be evil, so he roams the blight all evil and looking for a fight. <br />gitara (electric or acoustic?) tells tigraine to break loose for the waste, ladeeda, luc gets bummed leaves for the blight. while up there he comes across evil isam and they fight, something happens they merge, blah. now luc/isam roam around looking to fight stuff cause they're evil, waiting for commands or whatever. while they roam, in luc's form, janduin happens apon them while being depressed. he sees someone who looks so much like the love of his life (her freakin brother) that he doesnt defend himself and gets his wig split. so rand's uncle on his mom's side killed his dad. talk about in-laws, eh janny?<br />anyhow, lan's cousin/rand's uncle killed rand's dad.<br /><br />also, the whole dark prophecy thing makes more sense if you figure isam was raised by trollocs, he's like the trolloc man, which explains why they kiss his ass and use his name as a battlecry. woulda been cool if lan had been in the two rivers to hear that. lan and rand/galad should at least meet up with luc/isam, maybe all of them. but i have a feeling perrin is gonna ice him.<br /><br />whew. not as good as id hoped.


created: 2001-11-26 19:07:42
subject: <b>binded</b>
body:
i think that it is a possibilty that Luc has been bonded/binded to the shadow. As this is i would have to say<br />that that may be y he is with the shadow and just might still be alive.<br />later<br />paul


created: 2002-03-28 16:57:08
subject: <b>Rand &amp; Luc</b>
body:
Since Luc is Rand's Uncle, think of his motives for going to the Two Rivers!<br /><br />Luc/Isam is there to kill Rand out of a mixed Love &amp; Hate for him, I'm sure of it.<br /><br />I also suspect that Luc/Isam knows about Tam taking Rand after his birth, and probably followed him to the Two Rivers, giving away his location to the DO, so the DO sent His hound (Padan Fain) to keep an eye on him.<br /><br />Luc/Isam Returnes to the Two Rivers to hunt Rand as another one of the DO's hounds... I could be wrong, but I think I remember Fain saying that there were two Hounds for the DO... That might also explain why Fain and Luc/Isam were there at the same time during Perrin's fight.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /> Ruler of the Empire <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> Laughing Amphibian of Dreams <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /> Valiant Servant <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-10 23:09:52
subject: <b>you misunderstand...</b>
body:
Slayer is NOT always Isam in TAR and always Luc in the real world.  In WH ch22, it plainly says that Isam was the one who killed the AS in the Stone of Tear, and then he thinks &quot;Neither one of them got to kill AS very often.&quot;  it also says that when he left TAR, he became Luc, not because he HAD to, but because &quot;it seemed fitting.&quot;  and when he goes back into TAR to meet with his employer, he remains Luc.<br /><br />Luc and Isam are completely interchangeable in both worlds.  with this in mind, it's pointless to try to figure out which lived and which died; it doesn't matter because Slayer can be either one whenever he wants.


created: 2002-07-04 17:25:37
subject: <b>Clear up some misunderstandings</b>
body:
1st   Slayer was in the Two Rivers to kill Fain.<br />2nd   Isam killed the Aes Sedai in Tear in Tel lonroid, after Egwene had left them bond and sheilded. NOT IN THE REAL WORLD!  In the dream he is Isam and in the waking world he is Luc.<br /><br />Columbo is on the case!<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-07 00:07:32
subject: <b>Hey Columbo...</b>
body:
Actually it would have been impossible for him to have killed the Aes Sedai in the world of dreams, because their bodies were still in the prison, unless you think that he came into the real world, grabbed them, brought them back, they somehow weren't able to channel still(Egwene in TRD), and then after he killed them he brought them back? Ummmm...No. We don't even know that he can bring people with him when he hops between dimensions, and he wouldn't have wasted the time anyway. And also in WH, he is Isam in TAR, then he steps out as Luc, and then back in TAR again, he is Luc while talking to his master, then he switches back to Isam to kill wolves.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/seanchan.gif" border="0" />&quot;The Black Knight Always triumphs!!!!!&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-05-19 23:23:19
subject: <b>timing</b>
body:
Luc left Caemlyn BEFORE Tigraine did - see chp. 16 of LoC.  It's in Rand's conversation with Dyelin.  So, therefore, he didn't leave because he was depressed about Tigraine.  He left because Gitara told him to.  Therefore, there's nothing to suggest he was a DF.  I mean, he's the 1st prince of the sword, and skipping town when he knows (or, well, MAY know) that his beloved (or, well, possibly beloved) sister is trapped in a loveless marriage to a megalomaniac's son (Taringail, son of Laman)?  Sounds awfully like ignoring your duty, and these Andorans take duty seriously.  No, likely Gitara convinced him he HAD to go.  But, alas, he died fighting either Isam and/or the Blight, and his body got re-shuffled.  Somehow.  Unless he was turned.  Maybe he had LATENT channeling ability that didn't show up until late.  After all, Damer is pretty old to be channeling for the first time, so we see that for men, at least, there's no telling when the power will show up.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Live as if you were living for the second time and had acted as wrongly the first time as you are about to act now.  -VF</font><p></p>


created: 2003-06-29 15:46:30
subject: <b>Luc and Isam</b>
body:
&quot;Luc went to the mountains of Dhoom where Isam waited... one did die and one did live but both are.&quot;<br /><br />Isn't it possible that Isam is in Luc's body or something of the sort.<br /><br />he is Luc in the waking world and Isam in the Dream World.


created: 2004-02-27 22:40:06
subject: <b>Random Thoughts</b>
body:
~~When Luc was in the Two Rivers, someone said Luc claimed to be related to the royalty in Andor.~~<br /><br />Actually, it&#8217;s mentioned that they think he&#8217;s related to royalty in one of the borderlands. <br /><br />~~It would have been impossible for him to have killed the Aes Sedai in the world of dreams, because their bodies were still in the prison.~~<br /><br />Now, I&#8217;m not saying he killed them in the World of Dreams or not, because at the moment I really can&#8217;t remember, but it is perfectly possible for him to have killed them in the world of dreams even though their bodies were still in the prison.  It&#8217;s mentioned time and time again that if you die in the world of dreams you  never wake up.  It&#8217;s also mentioned time and time again that any hurts that you receive in the world of dreams appear on your body when you awake.  Verin even says at one point that she has a scar because the wound that was there when she woke up didn&#8217;t heal the way it was supposed it.  <br />


created: 2004-08-02 17:28:14
subject: <b>royalty?</b>
body:
when luc was in the two rivers he claimed to be from a small but old murandian house<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I'm not Homsar. Really.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-08-19 00:14:46
subject: <b>Nothing to do with the theory</b>
body:
Slayer doesn't think of himself as Luc or Isam.  They are two entities inhabiting the same body and sharing memories and experiences.  think of it like a Venn diagram: the circles are the appearances and personalities, and the overlap is the actual body consciousness.  So the middle can decide which appearance and personality to use.  so the collective &quot;thing,&quot; for lack of a better word (at 11:44 pm, anyway) is Slayer, which can be either Luc or Isam in either the waking world or TAR for reasons stated by others.  How they ended up in the same body or whose it is is a mystery to me.  Personally I don't think it matters.  I think that Luc started out good, but had the seeds of Evil in him already, and was corrupted by his exposure to Isam.  Not all that different in principle than the 13 Myrddraal an 13 DF channelers if you think about it, even if done in a very different way.  Oh, and Wotan, it says somewhere the trollocs capture the people the need, for food and to make weapons.  While in the Two Rivers, Luc claimed to be of a minor Murandian house, but hinted at connections to Saldaean royalty, and there were rumors he had a claim to the throne of some nation, probably Andor (&quot;Andor has queens,&quot; Perrin.)  The DO was still mostly imprisoned when Slayer was created, but he may have had enough power even then.  I doubt Ishy did.  Those of you who think Ishy is Slayer's master should get this through your heads: SLAYER HAS NO ONE MASTER, HE IS HIRED BY ANYONE WHO NEEDS HIM! HE ANSWERS ONLY TO THE DARK ONE!  A bunch of people say Isam was &quot;raised&quot; by Shadow Spawn.  I don't know what that is supposed to mean, so I'll leave it alone.  I also don't know wtf you mean by by bonded/binded (bound, dumbass) to the shadow.  Slayer obviously killed the two BA AS in the waking world, he isn't a Dream walker.  He could just do what he did in Far Madding.  Luc probably didn't have any ability to channel.  Damer's wasn't even inborn, he was just able to learn, like the Sul'dam are.  Thats why he didn't  channel till so lat in life.  Wow, that turned into a full-fledged theory, if I reword it.  Btw, the actual theory sucks.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>It's not apples and oranges, but no one paying attention could compare these apples without noticing: <br />(a) one is 12 times bigger and <br />(b) both of them are rutabagas.</i></font><p></p>


created: 2005-08-19 00:18:27
subject: <b>quick correction</b>
body:
in the part about the Venn diagram, it should be body and consciousness, not just body consciousness.  Y'allmight be smart enough to figure that out for yourselves, but I probably wouldn't be.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>It's not apples and oranges, but no one paying attention could compare these apples without noticing: <br />(a) one is 12 times bigger and <br />(b) both of them are rutabagas.</i></font><p></p>


created: 2006-04-23 13:26:22
subject: <b>hrmmm</b>
body:
First off, Janduin was struck down in the blight because he came across a man that looked like Shiel (tigraine) and refused to lift a hand against her.<br /><br />In the TR Luc claims rights to both a Borderland title, and the Nobility of Andor. This suggests that they share a conciousness, but sometimes surface as one or the other. The Murandian house was just a cover.<br /><br />Luc is Luc in the real world, Isam is Isam in TAR there is no change.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Lugh of the Vanth<br />Prince of Coolavin<br />Lord of the Darmods<br /><br />&quot;If you must mount the gallows, give a jest to the crowd, a coin to the hangman, and make the drop with a smile on your lips.&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2007-06-10 00:23:57
subject: <b>They certainly can change</b>
body:
Slayer doesn't have to be Luc in real world and Isam in TAR, he can be whoever he wants, in WH Isam steps from TAR to the real world he didn't have to change, he thought it was approapriate, and when Luc went back into TAR, he changed to Isam because Isam liked killing wolf more than him.<br /><br />As for what happened in the blight, they might have had a duel or something happened, but it is certainly Isam who died, why? because we see slayer as Luc, that mean Luc must have suvived,  DO probably fused them into Slayer.


created: 2001-06-26 01:56:18
subject: <b>More Support</b>
body:
Mat wil pull it all together when he puzzels out the need for a bell founder(sp?).  They will be used to forge cannons and eventually will be used against generic Foresaken A and they will refer to them as shocklances.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Thou shalt not have any fun to speak of, ever, because God loves you.  Lies.9.13<br /><br />Sin being everything that feels good.  Romans.22.7</font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-26 07:13:17
subject: <b>Tank</b>
body:
Mat will eventaly develop a steam tank whit the help of the man who tries to make a steam driwen wagon. Why else menshon the steam wagon at several okasions.<br /><br /><br />Sorry fore the spelling (dyslektic)


created: 2001-06-26 08:28:00
subject: <b>Hmmm</b>
body:
I always thought shocklances were weapons that used the one power...ter'angreal.  I could be wrong though...<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />*braces for the rebuttals*<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">~The Finkster~<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> Mischief maker <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> Eater of giant marshmallows <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /> Procrastinator extraodinaire <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><i> Memento, homo, quia pulvis es, et in pulverem reverteris</i><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-26 12:22:00
subject: <b>I agree with thefink</b>
body:
I don't think the Shocklances are just guns, I think they have a well as storage of power and fire with the power. The technology in the AoL was power based, I don't think that Sho-Flyers, jo-cars and jumpers are normal planes and cars since it's mentioned somewhere that there were no pollution in the AoL.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;All universal moral principles are idle fantasies.&quot;<br /><br /> Marquis de Sade</font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-26 13:03:50
subject: <b>I agree with Wotan</b>
body:
Also it was mentioned I believe when Rand was viewing the AOL through his ancestors eyes that there used to be no need for soldiers.  No one even knew what war was then.  I am pretty sure that they are not referring to Earth since there has been very little peace in our history.  I am of the camp that the WOT is NOT Earth's future/past, whatever (even if RJ says something to that effect).


created: 2001-06-26 15:51:49
subject: <b>Future Earth Invention</b>
body:
I think that the shocklances, jo-cars and jumpers were from a post-present, pre AOL era. I think that they were the result of the fusion of channelling with science. I think that sometime in the near future, on RJ's earth, we discover channeling, and use it to perfect several of our scientific inventions, like cars &amp; planes. I also think that when channelling is discovered, the limitations that the DO has on earth today (we don't see the DO nowadays, save the direct actions of humans) will be reversed during the next AOL, which could be LTT's AOL.So to sum up, it goes like this:<br /><br /><br />Present day Earth: Our earth<br /><br />Not too distant future: Some genius discovers channelling<br /><br />Pre AOL, Post Modern era: We learn to mix channelling with science, creating shock lances, jo-cars, etc.<br /><br />AOL; As channelling proficiency increases, less science (in the form that we would recognize) is needed, as the OP replaces many science based tools. (ie, jo-cars are dumped in favor of Travelling and Skimming)<br /><br />Late AOL: Some moron decides to drill into the Bore, and here we go again!<br /><br />The rest is in the books!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angry.gif" border="0" />DWarder<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angry.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-26 17:12:41
subject: <b>1st bomb</b>
body:
Mat has already constructed and used the first gunpowder-bomb...when he blew hole in the side of the Stone.  Everything else I agree with you on, Mat re-invents the rifle and shocklances=guns.


created: 2001-06-26 18:00:28
subject: <b>Shocking Theories</b>
body:
I do believe Mat will bring fire-arms into the series.  I do not believe, however, that he is necessarily going to create shocklances.  Shocklances always seemed related to the one power in the books.  Not everything that was lost during the War of Power will be rediscovered.  In fact, some new discoveries will be made in this age.  I believe guns will be a new discovery.  Of course, the books haven't really stated one way or the other if that is the case.  I guess we will just have to RAFO.


created: 2001-06-26 20:13:09
subject: <b>Words for things in the past are mixed up</b>
body:
Let me try to enlighten you all, break up the two words that make up shock lance<br /><br />                Shock        Lance<br /><br />The shock, could be related to the recoil and explosion inside the tube.<br /><br />Lance is just a long metal weapon/ or wood that was used like a giant spear to run people through.<br /><br />Now why wouldn't they call a rifle a shocklance.Just like in our world, when you translate one language to another the thing gets all mixedup.TryBablefish on altavista to do a French project and you'll get my point.  Translation from old tongue to new tongue would be difficult since there is no word for gun in the third age, so they'd make one with the discription.<br /><br />Say it was called a rifle or something else kind've like how the matches aludra is trying to make aren't called matches.<br /><br /><br />Now see how easy it is if you break words up, for instance<br /><br />Mankind is one of the most confusing and difficult things to comprehend in our world, let's break that up in order to understand it better.<br /><br />             Mank &amp; Ind<br /><br />Both of which make no sense adding to all the confusion about Mankind


created: 2001-06-26 21:17:13
subject: <b>What I envisioned...</b>
body:
I don't know if anyone here has played the game Unreal for PC, but I always envisioned a shocklance as something similar to that game's ASMD. It is a weapon that essentially fires a pulse of pure energy (in WoT's case, the OP) and near lightspeed. I always thought of &quot;shack&quot; as having to do with what happens to the victim.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" />-&gt; O  O  O  O  O  O  O  O  O  O<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/oh.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;The law of probabilities decreed me guiltless of his blood for in all my small experiences with guns, I had not hit anything I had tried to hit, and I knew I had done my best to hit him.&quot; ~ Mark Twain</font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-26 21:32:47
subject: <b>#'s</b>
body:
Think of how few of the channelers in the age of legends could make ter'angreal (none of the forsaken can or else they would have made some, at least if they can they need something else to make it)?  Now think about how big the armies they were using in the war?  there is no way they could have produced that many shocklances.  Shocklance are not a thing of the power.


created: 2001-06-27 18:47:00
subject: <b>Another thought.....</b>
body:
If shocklances were guns and rifles then some of the forsaken should have some kind of vauge idea of how they worked. I'm not saying that they should have knowledge of how to build one, just of what they did. You'd think they'd maybe try to get some one to produce a new one if it didn't involve having to create something with the power.<br /><br />   Until we know more about shocklances we won't have a true answer though. At this point I'll say 50/50.<br /><br />   By the way I think it's innacurate to say that Mat will discover gunpowder. The illuminators guild has already discovered it. Mat will just figure out a new use for it.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-27 20:40:10
subject: <b>Something to add</b>
body:
I just looked up something about Bayle's treasure to answer the above theory. There I stumbled over the lightstick. It looks like a neon light but doesn't use any electricity. That's a proof that in the AoL very trivial things were run by the OP or another higher technology.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;All universal moral principles are idle fantasies.&quot;<br /><br /> Marquis de Sade</font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-28 08:27:01
subject: <b>Shocklances aren't guns...</b>
body:
We have the Forsaken's points of views on this.  They remember things called shocklances, not called guns.  Problems in translation?  I think not.  Usually, when the Common Tongue doesn't have a translation for a word the Forsaken just use the Old Tongue word.  It's THAT easy.<br /><br />Rand also had LTT memories of shocklances.  Remembering that the Vulgar (New) Tongue did not spring into existence until after LTT's death, how would he make the exact same translation as the Forsaken even when it's so inaccurate?<br /><br />To our knowledge, only the Forsaken, Rand, and the most learned of other individuals remember Shocklances.<br /><br />I tend to agree with the WoT is Earth believer above (guess why? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />).  Shocklances are electrical sticks - cattle prods for people.  Perhaps they even have a firearm-like range, who knows.<br /><br />I want to point out that shocklances are in no way unique to or made up by RJ.  Many factasy writers have written about shocklances using the same word.  Usually it means something that resembles a small lance but does immense damage on a very short (i.e. hand-to-hand) range.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Your.Master <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-29 05:24:35
subject: <b>My opinion =)</b>
body:
I believe that they may be some type of projectile weapon but i believe they are much much more then what has been discussed.  We look at how the AoL is set up, 90% if not all of the world is developed with a infusion of science and a outside mystical force, nothing is as simple then as science to explain.<br /><br />We look at the growing of thier groves, an infusion of tree song and biology, now most everything else is a little more complex then in the present age, because the one power was so accessable that most found it common place, and it was probably used as such.<br /><br />Now if he was talking about a weapon which uses gun powder then there would be better words to describe it, but he uses the word shock.  The deeper question is: &quot;was it used to restrain or eliminate?&quot;.  The word shock can be used for both, either a minor shock to daze and stun, or a large shock to kill.<br /><br />In the end though, i think gun powder or the such would be too &quot;crude&quot; in thier opinions, why use gun powder when you can simply infuse the one power into a item of destruction for anyone to use, especially since it was so easy to come by... =)<br /><br />well thats my 4 1/2 cents<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /> when someone goes bad in randland, they dont hold back <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /> When good boys go bad watch yourself <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shy.gif" border="0" /> When good girls go bad.... run and dont look back <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-30 11:55:05
subject: <b>Shocklance = longe range weapon</b>
body:
there is no dout that the shocklance is a ranged weapon. if it was a melle weapon why woud they euqip solders whit swords to counter the mydraals?<br /><br /><br />


created: 2001-06-30 20:22:22
subject: <b>I don't need no stinkin' title...</b>
body:
Isn't it possible that a Shocklance is merely a very powerful cattle prod? I find it unlikely that the SL is a ranged weapon, and weapon technology in the AOL was nonexistant. Plus SLs seemed to be used en masse, so they probably weren't anything Aes Sedea..sediae?(damn, I forgot how to spell the end of..well, you know!) made. Remember that something like electricity is broadcasted throughout the world, and is accessible to anyone with the right equipment? It doesn't take a genius to stick a receiver in a sharp pointy thing and pump the power right into the sharp pointy thing's surface.


created: 2001-07-01 16:07:48
subject: <b>in an age of peace...</b>
body:
...There probably wouldn't be much use for a gun powder weapon. Cattle still needed to be raised and herded, so a cattle prod makes sense. When Violence broke out however, there was a new use for the 'shocklance'. <br /><br />   There are lots of examples of common place items being turned into weapons of war in history. I think that the shock lance is one of them.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-02 01:41:56
subject: <b>ever read modesitt??</b>
body:
in one of the last books there is a young chaos mage (lorn or something) who usesa a lance that could be a shocklance. . . its sorta like a regular lance only it hasa certain amount of charge to sprt and even hurl fire like a mage would, only without actually havin to have the talent of a mage<br />too me this would fit nicley because in the War of Power  there were only so many channelers albeit more than at present . . but wouldnt it be a goal  to make a non channeler as powerful as a channeler with a lance that did some crazy stuff?? my thought is that it could be taken literally and be a lance or terangreal athat shot some lightning at the other dudes. . just a thought<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">CodeBlue Signature Virus! Copy me into your signature, help me spread.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-02 00:05:10
subject: <b>Guns?</b>
body:
I agree.  Although the shocklances are more likely to be beam weapons-phasers, lasers, or turboblasters-than the bullet-firing variety.<br /><br />Vandevere<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-blue.gif" border="0" /> Vandevere <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-blue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /> If the human brain were so simple we could understand it, we would be so simple we couldn't understand it.</font><p><a href="http://www.fanfiction.net/u/436696/" target="_blank">Vandevere's Fanfiction</a></p><p></p>


created: 2001-08-09 14:08:07
subject: <b>Nooooooo!!</b>
body:
I don't want firearms or any other high-tech foolishness! I want middle-age, WoTish fantasy and the One Power!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gandalf.gif" border="0" /> Gandalv the Gray <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gandalf.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Aes Sedai of the Age of Legends <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> Faithful servant of the Creator <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /> Bringer-back of Moiraine <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" /> Decapitator of Myrddraal and their Kin <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-17 12:18:19
subject: <b>Shocklances' are dead and buried</b>
body:
I don't think shocklances were just AoL rifles, more likely OP attuned CQB weapons that just have to tap a myrdraal and he goes Bang!<br /><br />Wouldn't it be more fun to have Mat lighting a fuse whilst a Forsaken proclaims &quot;You can't stop me with your funny shaped bell!&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> Dai Lau go home now <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-08-30 11:15:26
subject: <b>theyre ter'angreal</b>
body:
shocklances were ter'angreal in all likelyhood<br /><br />why cant forsaken make them, well, probably because that would require male and female forsaken to co-operate<br /><br />i suppose with grendal and moridin it's possible, but the fact is, shocklances were probably something niether of them had any experience with.  the only one of the forsaken that was into that sort of thing was aginor iirc<br /><br />i cant really see them being guns as we see them now, everything was run by the power, and why use a small projectile that would need to be reloaded when a ter'angreal could do the same damage (if not more) and not require a reload


created: 2001-09-10 22:15:18
subject: <b>shocklances</b>
body:
I always thought of SL as kind of like the rail guns in Eraser since there was so much death in the WoP. I don't think that SL are ter'angreal because there was such a small SL to Aes Sedai ratio in AoL. I also think that Mat will make the first guns (Much to my dismay) and they will be used in the LB. If he doesn't invent guns, then he already found the destructive power of fireworks and aludra will eventually come around (or Mat will find a bell founder) and she will tell him how to make explosives, which will be used in the LB.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> Stupidity got us into this mess--why can't it get us out? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /> The ultimate Pink Floyd fan <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /> Shine on you crazy diamond! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /> A storm is coming, <i>our</i> storm. Long live the fighter! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-08 19:22:28
subject: <b>I agree with Dai Lau</b>
body:
Shocklances are gone and it would be more fun having Mat liight a fuse at a Forsaken<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">FanFic Girl <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-28 20:23:41
subject: <b>Yeah</b>
body:
It does not sound wrong and it even makes sense.  I would laugh if the Forsaken flip when Mat uses shocklances in battle because the Forsaken always talk about them.


created: 2001-11-13 00:36:00
subject: <b>Re: Shocklances...</b>
body:
They're beam weapons:  Like phasers or blaster-rifles.<br /><br />Vandevere<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-blue.gif" border="0" /> Vandevere <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-blue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /> If the human brain were so simple we could understand it, we would be so simple we couldn't understand it.</font><p><a href="http://www.fanfiction.net/u/436696/" target="_blank">Vandevere's Fanfiction</a></p><p></p>


created: 2001-12-13 17:06:37
subject: <b>my opinion...</b>
body:
Well, I think shock-lances looked like those lance-like things that we can see in STAR GATE. I think they were powered by the OP and they had different modes like long-range, short-range, stun, kill, burn to little unrecognizable pieces and so on.<br />Maybe you could even attach a bayonet for the old-style kill. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />


created: 2002-01-26 12:33:58
subject: <b>They are guns.</b>
body:
Sammy was(or is?) a military genius . He did not fight with the power like some of his peers, He had armies composed of fighters of steel and these shocklance things. He did not fight with armies of ter-angreal. He defended Illian by creating military defenses but it appears that he lost his fight by the power. Has anyone played Age of Empires II? There are these soldiers called Hand-Cannoneers and mounted ones. They fire a primitve gun that is a tube stuffed with gunpowder. That is how I imagine shocklances. They could also be taser- like things not cattle-prods.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">And every move I make he's got a hand up just in time<br />He's throwing several punches, and he's blocking most of mine<br />Defeated now I sulk and squirm above the frozen heights<br />Waiting, calculating till he ventures onto the ice.<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-16 12:09:52
subject: <b>Pollution free, remember?</b>
body:
The AoL was polution free. Gunpowder is not pollution free. Even in our world, you hear things like &quot;the smell of gunpowder.&quot; <br /><br />I always figured that shock lances had some electrical connotation. Solar powered batteries?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" />Karlaan <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/myrddraal.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-08 15:18:08
subject: <b>star gate phasers</b>
body:
I agree with sjk about shock lances being the type of lances used in star gate... and I don't believe that they were ter'angreal though cos otherwise some would have survived... but what I do beelieve is that the shocklances were mass produced by ter'angreal wheich are now broken... the shock lance probably shot some sort of energy balls that would kill over short distances and stun at long. we have to keep in mind as well that aginor as halima is dissing bryne's camp saying that he did not know what was going on a hundred miles around him and that the army's maximum range was a few hundred paces etc... so shocklances probably did have quite a long range.....


created: 2002-04-10 18:29:44
subject: <b>well it took some time...</b>
body:
i was kinda surprised that the stargate thing came on so late...4 me it was clear from the start that SL are kinda stargate like thingies<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />...on the other side i&#180;m new here so my opinion dosnt really matter <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/disapprove.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font face="Lucida Blackletter"><font color="pink"><b>Pink-Fluffy Bunnies are evil</b></font></font><br /><br /><br /><br /><font face="Lucida Blackletter">In the <b>BucketBaby</b>-Fanclub</font><br /><br /><font face="Lucida Blackletter"><font color="navy">Warder to Zyallira Sedai</font></font> <br /><br /><br /><font face="Lucida Blackletter">Unbowed,Unbent,Unbroken</font><br /><br /><br /><font face="Lucida Blackletter"><i>SQUEAK!</i> - <b>The Grim Squeaker</b></font><br /><br /><br /><font color="blue">Think of the kittens!!!!</font></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-24 02:53:21
subject: <b>Why haven`t anyone made one?</b>
body:
If shocklances are guns, why haven`t anyone made them? <br />At one point in the books (WH I think). Demandred thinks about some of the things of the Age of Legends that are no more. Shocklances are one of them. As a gun is a relatively simple thing (all there basically is to it is a pipe (the barrel), a bullet and gunpowder), I believe a relatively knowledgeable person such as Demandred would know how a gun worked if he had ever seen one. Consequently it wouldn`t be a problem for Demandred, or any other of the forsaken for that matter, to have a gun made instead of complaining that they are a thing of the Age of Legends. <br /><br />On the other hand, the introduction of guns would probably be of most benefit for the forces of the light. And anyhow the forsaken don`t need guns.<br /><br />Still, as shocklance might actually be a good metaphor for gun, due to my theory above I don`t think they can be the same thing.


created: 2002-05-19 17:25:03
subject: <b>I always assumed they were energy weapons</b>
body:
Maybe ones that were mass produced by ter-angreal like the fan-cloth that is used for warders cloaks and used to be part of soldiers' uniforms during the AoL.<br /><br />They probably used a rudimentary form of the OP, maybe firing a small blast of fire. Anything that involves the word &quot;lance&quot; would generally be too unwieldy to use in melee combat.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gandalf.gif" border="0" />It's all in fun until I get hurt.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" />It's still fun if you get hurt. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />If someone else gets hurt, who cares?<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gandalf.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-20 11:22:13
subject: <b>WoT RPG</b>
body:
if the wheel of time RPG book is indeed approved by RJ, then the answers are right there. <br /><br />&quot;Shocklances: These fearsome weapons from the War or Power emit devistating bolts of energy...(blah blah blah, how much damage they do in game and other game information)...A Shocklannce contains an internal power supply that allows it to fire eight energy bolts beofre recharging...&quot;<br /><br />it also says in the game play info that they shoot 150 ft.<br /><br />now admitedly, im new to this site, so im not sure if theres a site-wide view on the reliability of the WoT RPG manual... but it does say &quot;...approved by robert jordan&quot; on the cover, and RJ even writes the forward. if there is a diference between the book series and the RPG manual, then RJ knows about it. and energy weapons that shoot deadly bolts up to 150 feet dont sound like primative guns... or advanced guns for that matter. i can only hope RJ wouldnt approve of a change that large.<br /><br />


created: 2002-09-05 15:16:24
subject: <b>Shocking shocklance</b>
body:
I agree with the RPG definition of shocklances.......as to their appearance, they may be something like what Ra's guards have in STARGATE, but more streamlined and aesthetically pleasing.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Gaeran Amaconde<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />Grand Historian at the Court of the Sun<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />One of Those Chosen to Bring the Light<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" />Master of Graendal's Revels<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" />&quot;If sometimes our dreams come true, what of our nightmares?&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-30 16:08:05
subject: <b>What RJ said.</b>
body:
I do agree that Mat will introduce powder weapons to Randland, however shocklances are not powder weapons.<br /><br />In the &quot;What did Robert Jordan say?: On topic questions&quot; FAQ on this site, there is an entry under the &quot;History (Age of Legends to Present Day)&quot; entry that reads:<br /><br />&quot;Are shocklances guns, or an energy discharge weapon?<br /><br />Energy discharge weapons. &quot;<br /><br /><br />


created: 2003-01-01 20:16:46
subject: <b>shock LANCE</b>
body:
I think shock lances would probably look like a medieval lance that fires stuff from the tip. Randland already has lances(in the borderlands) so it would probably have to look like one to be called a lance


created: 2003-01-15 01:08:11
subject: <b>Hmm</b>
body:
I believe in one interview RJ has definded shocklances as energy discharge weapons, and that sounds like a Star Trekish type phaser or laser rifle. It does seem  to me that, ter'angreal or no, is gone. Elayne, by the Second Oath, cannot make a shocklance (Well, she can, but only until she swears the Three Oaths on the Oath Rod) with the OP. Mat sounds like he will make guns simliar to muskets.<br /><br />As for me...OP+ Two Rivers bowmen+cannon fodder keeping screaming hoards of trollocs from annilhating your channelers/bowmen=OWNAGE.<br /><br />Think. A shocklance can shoot half as far as a Two Rivers bow (150 paces, according to a post on here). Perrin hit a darkhound at 300 paces. Nyneave said a kid in the Two Rivers can hit anything at 200. Meaning, anyon with a shockland is in for a rude suprise when arrows start flying like hail. Muskets are notorisouly inaccurate, take forever and a day to reload. They may outrange a Two Rivers bow, though if they do, I'll bet at that distance a primitive musket would be hideously inaccurate+not much power. (Now, something on the order of cannons capable of blowing city walls apart...)<br /><br />Getting off from that tangent, it DOES say that the was no pollution in the AOL. But during the War of the Shadow, &quot;all facets of war were rediscovered.&quot; War tends to bring pollution, sometimes deliberately. (Chemical/bio weapons, atom bombs, anyone?) I don't know if shocklances were ter'angreal; I'd bet they were devices that could focus light at a very high intensity over short distances powered with, well, the Power. These would be pretty complex, meaning Sammy cannot just make a few thousand of them (Besides, he wou;d likely need precision equipment, and where is he gonna get that?) and he may not know how anyway.<br /><br />My 0.02.


created: 2003-01-27 20:27:53
subject: <b>Sammael's comment</b>
body:
At one point, Sammael wishes either to himself or aloud that he had a shocklance and thought he may find one in a stasis box.  I seem to remember him thinking even one of them would be quite a devastating weapon in this time period.  If this is so, it must be more than a gun or a hand-to-hand weapon.  No one gun or one axe (no matter how efficiently it killed once you hit the target with it) could turn the tide of a war.  <br /><br />Even with Rand, Egwene, and Aviendha channeling for much of the day did not help much to crush the Shaido.  If Sammael thinks that one shocklance would be that much more useful to him than his mastery of the One Power, it must be an amazing weapon that is able to deal large amounts of damage at range and quickly.<br /><br />Now I may be incorrect about what Sammael said/thought seeing as how my books are a 6 hour drive away, so anyone who cares to look it up may feel free to call me an idiot.  I believe it is during the time when Sammael was looking for the cache of angreal in Ebou Dar.<br /><br />Onnestabe


created: 2004-07-13 17:00:24
subject: <b>guns are not shocklances</b>
body:
I think not.  In the prologue to LoC, Sammael laments not having Shocklances to arm his troops with.  If shocklances were merely guns, it would not be difficult for him to obtain them.  He must know of the existance of fireworks in the present time, which means he knows there are people who can make gun powder.  And, even if he cannot design a fully functional gun himself, he no doubt understands that a gun is, in it's simplest form, nothing more than a metal tube that uses exploding gun powder to launch a projectile.  As one of the Forsaken, and as ruler of Illian, it wouldn't be terribly difficult for him to round up the needed materials and the people with the skills and knowledge to turn that rudimentary discription into a functional gun.  Most likely, he just considered early guns not worth the effort it would take to create and manufacture them.  Fortunately, none of the Forsaken seem to have any knowledge in the engineering fields, perhaps if they did, Sammael could have had his shocklances.


created: 2006-06-10 13:19:53
subject: <b>Related RJ Quote...</b>
body:
I found this on Dragonmount. It's from a book signing by RJ at Dayton, Ohio.<br /><br />Q: Was the gizmo used to capture Elayne a shocklance?<br />A: It was a variation. A shocklance is more like a rifle, and this was more<br />like a pistol.<br /><br />Interesting...so this indicates that shocklances may come back to WoT. Also, notice that they seem to be a ranged weapon. Remember that it wasn't one of the Blacks that fired it. Instead, it was someone from another room, some ways off.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;SHAIDAR HARAN, GET ME SOME LEMONADE.&quot; (Lord of Chaos, sort of)</font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-26 12:20:41
subject: <b>One Problem</b>
body:
If Gareth could channel, he would be dead and insane by now.  Gareth is described as a man who is graying at the temples.  We know from Rand's alternate future that he would've touched the source eventhough he didn't realize he could.  Even if Gareth could touch the source, he would've either been burnt to a crisp when he accidently channels for the first time and he would've began to go insane as he touched it more often.  We'll assume Gareth is in his mid 40's to mid 50's.  Male channelers begin to touch the source at 18 or so.  That means he would've inadvertantly been touching the source for nearly 30 years.  He would've been insane by now.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Hey<br />You're a crazy bitch<br />But you f<i></i>uck so good, I'm on top of it<br />When I dream, I'm doing you all night<br />Scratches all down my back to keep me right on</font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-26 12:27:14
subject: <b>Maybe he has to learn to touch the source?</b>
body:
If he never learned he would never have touched Saidin. I'm not convinced that he can learn to channel but since Siuan just fell in love with him Jordan might have given him the talent so the can live together a longer period?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;All universal moral principles are idle fantasies.&quot;<br /><br /> Marquis de Sade</font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-26 15:32:53
subject: <b>Learn, not born with.</b>
body:
gareth bryne hasn't touched the power because, unlike Rand, he was not born with they ability, but he has the capacity to learn. That is why he wouldn't have touched the power. (This is of course, hypothetically speaking, because I'm not sure if he can learn or not) Just like the old lady who is just beginning to channel, the same thing could happen to Gareth Bryne. maybe when Rand goes to see his old friend the Amyrlin Seat, Egwene at her house warming when she gains the White Tower, he'll notice that Gareth has the ability and will start teaching him. Having Mat, Gareth and the Aeil chiefs leading the Army of the Dragon will be pretty useful, especially if one of those generals is one of the best in the world and the consort to the assistant to the Amyrlin Seat herself. <br />


created: 2001-06-26 17:00:17
subject: <b>Bukama is right.</b>
body:
Period<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b><font color="dark yellow">A</font><font color="red">n</font><font color="orange">an</font><font color="red">k</font><font color="dark yellow">e</font></b><br />Creator of the <i>Glistering and Shining New and Improved Advanced Warder Spoon</i><br />Warder to Corail<br />Disciple-restaurator of WOOPAH!&#8482;<br />Vice-President of <b>BucketBaby's</b> fanclub -She Rocks!<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-26 20:25:18
subject: <b>i agree with apollyon</b>
body:
PERIOD<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /> Gladiator Extraordinaire <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Holder of the Cup <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" /> Defender of the Front Line <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /> Champion of his Land <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/oh.gif" border="0" /> Singer of the Songs <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/oh.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /> True North Strong and Free <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> Crusher of All <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-26 23:48:43
subject: <b>Writing styles</b>
body:
Now I haven't seen any of this shivering done by Gareth, in fact, being one of those blade masters, he probably moves like a wolf yada yada, he doesn't seem like the shivering sort of character.<br /><br />But besides that, it would just be too much for him to be able to channel.  All the good characters are sort of devided into their own spectrums, you know how Rand and the aes sedai, and others sort of fit into the one power slot, whereas Mat and Bashere, and others, (mainly soldier tyrpes) fit more into the military slot.<br /><br />Gareth is a Military slot kind've guy.  He is the general of the warriors going to Tar'valon, him being able to channel would be like Matt or Perrin learning to channel, just too much.<br /><br />Not that Matt couldn't possibly learn, he has the one power in his blood, just look at his sister bode, power is born into her.<br /><br /><br />Kidblondeel<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-06-27 08:07:20
subject: <b>Need to check</b>
body:
But early in the series, I remember Mat and Perrin both shuddering at the thought of saidar being used on them.  Garreth Bryne may be the finest military mind in RandLand, imho, he still doesn't like the idea of being channeled at.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />There's a certain mindset that most people in RandLand seem to have about channeling in general.  Just becuase Bryne tolerates Aes Sedai, does not mean that he like having flows of Air stop his feet.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Statman<br /><br />- Thinks time is more of a Mobius Strip rather than a Wheel.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-27 09:18:18
subject: <b>shiver not shudder</b>
body:
The choice of words is explicit: shivering. That word has always been used in conjunction with those male channelers detecting saidar use.<br />Also, I said he has the potential to learn. Rand, remember, is like Egwene and Nynaeve: so powerful that he would channel even if not taught. To me this suggests that those that can learn  but not spontaneously channel MAY have some<br />abilities in terms of sensing Power. After all, that is how they are detected. <br />Damar Flinn: Exactly :-)Look how old he is and yet only now can channel.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;We wont give a fig,<br /> We'll tell you to,<br /> Go stick your head in a pig!&quot;<br />  The Sirius Cybernetics Customer Services Helpline - Share and Enjoy!</font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-27 09:57:52
subject: <b>that won't happen appolyon</b>
body:
Rand wouldn't just randomly notice that Gareth Bryne can learn to channel.  Remember, the testing requires an active part on both the tester and the testee.  I doubt Rand is going to all of sudden ask Gareth Bryne to stare at a flame for ten minutes and try and feel a resonance.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Vercingetorix<br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/803.gif" /><br />Theory Post Admin<br /><br />I went to the doctor the other day and all he did was drain some blood from my neck.  Don't ever go to Doctor Acula.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-01 02:08:04
subject: <b>Shivering?</b>
body:
Where does this shivering of Bryne happen? It's not in the scene where Siuan tries to lift him but can't.  She is the one who shivers.  Page 426 LoC:  &quot;Just to drive it home, she embraced saidar--that missed sweetness was so wonderful she shivered--wrapped him in flows of Air, and lifted him.&quot;  Is there some other place in the books where Bryne shivers when Aes Sedai channel? That would be very interesting--but this isn't one of those places.


created: 2001-10-11 14:45:51
subject: <b>Ridiculous</b>
body:
This is false. As the above person posted, it was Siuane who shivered not Gareth. The ONLY reason he knew she channeled, was that she WRAPPED HIM UP IN AIR!!!! Whether he was lifted from the ground or not, she stopped him in his tracks and he was unable to move. I don't know about you, but when I get paralyzed for no reason, I figure something fishy is going on. This is a false theory.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" />Easing The Badger<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-15 19:51:38
subject: <b>I bet,</b>
body:
that there are several men we know, and think are normal that can channel too, like Gawyn maybe.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><i><b>DARTH DRAGON</b></i> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><b><i>&quot;Truth begins as heresy.&quot;  </i></b><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-25 14:09:50
subject: <b>sorry</b>
body:
Gareth Bryne recognized Siuan chanelling becasue she tied him up with Air before she tried to lift him.  I just reread that passage, and I didn't see any shivering.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gimli.gif" border="0" /> Dwarven Lord <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gimli.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> Blademaster wannabe <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-green.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-15 00:55:44
subject: <b>Gareth rising to high rank</b>
body:
Gareth Bryne rose to the rank of General because,he is arguably one of the finest military minds living.This has been commented on numerous time in several books.Nothing to do with channeling.


created: 2004-12-19 12:27:41
subject: <b>technically......</b>
body:
take a look at Damer Flinn. he is like, anicient and only recently discovered he could learn t mchannel. Like Sharina Melloy- she is over 100 yet is a new novice. people who have the ability to learn how to channel can go all their lives not noticing, so gareth bryne COULD learn to channel if he had the abitity. <br />i know this has been pointed out already a few times, but he would have noticed that he couldnt move his feet, how she was straining, and her shock when nothing happened beyond that. also it was SIUAN who shivered not him.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Surprising what you can dig out of books if you read long enough, isn't it?&quot; -- Rand Al'Thor<br /><br />&quot;I of course have zero evidence for this, but since when has that stopped any of us?&quot; -- David Wren-Hardin <br /><br />Oh, transatlantic Love!<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-27 05:36:56
subject: <b>split</b>
body:
not all asha'man will go with taim. rand is still ta'veren and there is still logain. the breaking might be a battle between rand's black tower and taim's black tower<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">i'm bored</font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-27 08:01:16
subject: <b>But what about Logain</b>
body:
The last part of Winter's Heart seemed pretty clear that there will be a split in the Black Tower (since there is one in the White Tower).  Logain has a caderie of younger Ashamen around him.  If Taim can influence impressionable men, so can Logain.  <br /><br />It's all a matter of balance.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Statman<br /><br />- Thinks time is more of a Mobius Strip rather than a Wheel.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-27 09:25:40
subject: <b>Dragonsworn</b>
body:
A good number of those in the BT are recruited by trawling through those who volunteer to follow the DR. Taim's lot seem to be those he has personally recruited, with personal loyalty to him. Most ofthe Ashmn are prob. neutral in the conflict between T and L. Some get pulled to one camp or another by greeed (T) or belief (L). In the end, those Aes Sed will widen those gaps to open conflict. People will have to choose. The maj will follow Logain, as he is more in touch with the ordinary Ashmn. This and the fact that L's group has Aes Sed Bonded to them more than T's will mean L wins.<br />The traitors will flee to bcome Dreadlords.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;We wont give a fig,<br /> We'll tell you to,<br /> Go stick your head in a pig!&quot;<br />  The Sirius Cybernetics Customer Services Helpline - Share and Enjoy!</font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-27 10:47:07
subject: <b>The Symbol does not show harmony</b>
body:
I have to take issue with the first point of this theory - Jordan specifically said in an interview that he did not want to have the symbol of the Aes Sedai exactly duplicate the Chinese symbol balancing Yin and Yang (Spelling Note: it is NOT &quot;Ying Yang&quot; but &quot;Yin Yang&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />.  Instead, he wanted to show that the two forces were separate.  In equilibrium, perhaps, but in harmony - no.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Annoying wotmaniacs for 10 years.<br /><br />Oh, I don't have time for this. I have to go and buy a single piece of fruit with a coupon and then return it, making people wait behind me while I complain. - Prof. Farnsworth<br /> <br /><b>The Voice of Lews Therin</b><br /><br /></font><p><a href="http://www.waronterrortheboardgame.com/" target="_blank">Find out what WOT really means...</a></p><p></p>


created: 2001-06-29 14:06:03
subject: <b>This is a very interesting theory........But&gt;&gt;&gt;</b>
body:
I've been re-re-reading book ate, and I think that Rand and Taim's influence with themselves and the Asha'man is going to drop from Male super Power to being exactly what they where or close enough to what they were like in the age of legends.  I read the part where Min see's what Cadsuane is going to do to the Asha'man, Min says it won't hurt them but they aren't going to like it.  What else could that mean but teach them humility...?<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Life is a sexually transmitted disease with a 100% fatality rate!!<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-30 11:34:13
subject: <b>Truth...</b>
body:
Yeah i like what Gill' is saying there...<br />It was just a theory i would like to see, coz i hate the serene White Tower Ladies....(cant swear, thats poop)...so yeah Gill ur a champ and i am content<br /><br />Mad out<br /><br />Cheers<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Dzugashvilli Incarnate<br />                  Infamous Dreadnaught<br />                  Baptist of Blasphemy<br /> <br /><i>Rules and Order are the bane of life <br /> Only chaos frees the soul</i> - Madrox Stalin</font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-01 17:01:13
subject: <b>Question</b>
body:
Did not Elaida have a Foretelling where the black tower would be destroyed. i will suppose that will happen because the struggle between Logain(Good) and Taim(Evil) will go into full scale war.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot; cogito ergo doleo.&quot;<br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> Veni, vidi, volo in domum redire<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" />Ecce potestas casei.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-03 19:08:15
subject: <b>Well almost, but no cigar</b>
body:
Elaida do Avrihny a Roihan a Hankramp fro Writine the Name actually said in her foretelling that the black tower will be 'rent in blood and sisters will walk it's grounds'. I don't know if she said sisters or Aes Sedai or somethin else, but she did say 'rent in blood'. This either means bloody fighting with a bunch of bloody ashamon, and a bunch of bloody Aes Sedai, and a bunch of bloody blood stains on the bloody ground. I think it will also include people saying th word 'bloody' like it's going out of style.<br /><br />   The other option is that Ablar will turn the Black Tower into a hotel and people will have to donate a pint of blood so that they can stay there for a night. This will be given to one of Rands schools where a genius has discovered transfusions. <br /><br />  I'll leave it to you to decide what is more likely.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-04 01:25:31
subject: <b>Additional info on the symbol</b>
body:
To add to what was said above of the Symbol, when the two dots are not present in the symbol, that means the forces are in conflict. Only when the dots are present in the opposite half of the symbol is there harmony (symbolizing and undestanding of one by the other)


created: 2002-05-01 23:44:43
subject: <b>This has nothing to do with the theory, but I hope...</b>
body:
Logain rips Taim apart. Taim is so creepy. He reminds me of those greasy bus drivers that wait for little girls to walk by and entice them with candy. *shudders* He is a creep.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> ..Graendal, she had many shades as a jegal had scales, slipping from one to another like lightning..<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> Proud Founder of &quot;The Chosen&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Everyone needs their Edgucation! A.24-M.24<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-19 01:52:47
subject: <b>Here is a what if.......</b>
body:
I found this theory quite intriguing.  I have been pondering for quite awhile about how the whole Logain/Taim thing and Egwene/Eladia thing might play out.  After reading this theory and the other comments, I had an idea.  What if Taim took the BT to fight the WT at the same time that Egwene began her attack.  Then to make things interesting, Logain followed Taim to stop him and help the Aes Sedai out (because Rand has said that the Ashamen are to leave the AS alone).  So here we have both sides (good and evil) of both towers engaged at the same time.  Something I think that would definately have to involve Rand, though I am not sure at the moment how.  Taking mjasghai's comment into account (cause I thought it had a great idea) perhaps because of this battle the white tower will once again become whole and the black tower will be rent with blood because both sides of good will come together and chase Taim (and some of the evil AS too) back to the BT where the battle will be finished.  The survivors--Taim, Eladia, and some others will escape to become dread lords and TG.<br /><br />I will be interested to see what others think of my first attempt at a response to a theory.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/egwene.gif" border="0" /> Guerrielle Vertrepas <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />New to Wotmania and <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-19 14:38:05
subject: <b>Unite</b>
body:
It seems to me, the tower will finally be whole again after two thousand years of lacking the male half. It hasn't really been whole sonce the male half was tainted. But with the Bowl of the Winds, wee've seen that one both halves (saidin and saidar) are used together, true miracles the forsaken never imagined possible are quite within grasp. As soon as someone realizes the power of the WHOLE One Power working for each other, it stands to reason would try to bring it back together. The tower must be whole.


created: 2002-10-30 21:47:11
subject: <b>Small Correction</b>
body:
This isn't about the theory, just a spelling mistake.  It's actually Yin and Yang, not Ying and Yang.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Bob L. Sedai (a.k.a. Luge) <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /><br />Fighting off the Taint - <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tinfoilhat.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" />Thanks given to Burr, the ever-helpful theory critic<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />And to Light in the Night, fellow theorist extraordinaire<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Voted Best Screenname 1 (one) years in a row.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-27 18:39:16
subject: <b>Sammael is dead.</b>
body:
RJ said himself that Sammael is dead, but I am not sure about Osan'gar.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Ellerys Amberyle <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-27 19:22:05
subject: <b>I Agree, Somewhat</b>
body:
I agree that Osan'gar is not dead. However, i have always had the impression that Moridin is now the only one who can use the True Power(excluding perhaps Shadar Haran)<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Hearts, stars, and horsheshoes,<br />Clovers and blue moons,<br />Pots of gold and rainbows, and me red balloons!!!<br /><br />If you go back in time and kill yourself, what would happen?<br /><br />Is that a penis in your pocket, or are you just happy to see me.<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-27 19:31:09
subject: <b>Well....</b>
body:
Where does it say that there wasn't any remains of Osangar to be found? Cadsuane was thinking about the fact that a few dead forsaken and one renegade ashamon being dead wasn't worth the loss of life on their side.<br /><br />   So if Dashiva is alive, who was cadsuane thinking about? Hmm.... Looks like an indication that Osangar is very freakin dead to me.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-27 19:36:45
subject: <b>Has to be dead</b>
body:
Why don't we just say that everyone who is supposedly dead in the books is really alive and is going against all their usual behavior and hiding somewhere twiddling their thumbs and waiting to jump out and surprize everyone. No! <br /><br />If no one died in these books, it would be pointless for Rand to even bother killing the in the first place.  Rahvin is dead(bale fire) Sammael is dead, and out of the Dark one's reach because he was swallowed up by a different evil.<br /><br />And not that you're wrong, this is just my opinion, I'm really sick of all these people coming back to life, I mean what the hell, Aginor and Balthemal however you spell it came back, Ishy's back, so is Lanfear.  Why can't they just die!<br /><br />If one more of them comes back I swear I'm gonna have a connption.<br /><br />Kidblondeel<br /><br />PS don't take this personally, You are probably right for all I know, but it doesn't mean I have to like it.


created: 2001-06-27 19:55:41
subject: <b>Sob...I dont want Aginor to die!</b>
body:
But Im afraid he probably did.<br /><br />Cadsuane said that the 'price they paid was too much for a few singed Forsaken and a dead renegade' <br /><br />I think he is dead, but he had so much potential....but then again that's realism for you. Good guys dont always win, bad guys dont always lose and bad guys dont survive for a sequel.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="blue"><img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /> <b>PROUDLY CELEBRATING 10 YEARS OF WOTMANIA!</b></font> <img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /><br /><br /><font color="purple"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <b>FAQ and WoT Admin</b></font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><font color="gray"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> <b>Part-time Philosopher of the Wheel</b> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /></font></font><p><a href="/wotmessageboard2showmessage.asp?MessageID=107993" target="_blank">New WoT quizzes!</a></p><p></p>


created: 2001-06-27 23:14:10
subject: <b>Dead, dead, dead</b>
body:
I agree with points made by others who have posted.  Osangar did not have access to the true power.  It was mentioned earlier in the book that only Moridin had access to the True Power since being named Nae'blis.  Also, it does not seem that any of the Forsaken would have been prepared for direct attacks by the One Power.  Remember that most of the ones who attacked almost died because of the retaliation by the Aes Sedai and Ashaman protecting Rand and Nyneave.  Also, it is true that bone burns at a high temperature.  However, I think the temperature of the fire was enough to destroy any trace of a human being.  The hill wasn't lower just because the top of it was pushed away!  It was burned into nothingness, just like Dashiva.  He's dead!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">cynic79</font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-28 01:10:55
subject: <b>Sammael's dead according to R.J...?</b>
body:
I know that I've read a hundred times on this site and others that Robert Jordan has stated straight out that Sammael is dead and gone, but I haven't read it myself. <br /><br />Could someone PLEASE show me where he's said this (at a signing or...?), not that I doubt what you're saying, but would love to read it for myself.<br /><br />So, can anyone help?


created: 2001-06-28 01:39:18
subject: <b>Re: Sammael's Dead</b>
body:
http://www.cnn.com/chat/transcripts/2000/12/12/jordan/index.html<br /><br />It's about a third of the way down the page. I'll even provide the actual quotation. That shows that I'm a nice guy. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />&quot;Question from Arsolos: It has been reported that you have confirmed that Sammael died at the end of Crown of Swords. Could you confirm that you have said this and elaborate on whether Rand was correct? <br /><br />Robert Jordan: Mashadar killed Sammael. Sammael is toast!&quot;<br /><br />Hope that helps. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/blush.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Timekeeper<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Guardian of the Wheel <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />--The Creator made women to please the eye and trouble the mind. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br />--Kittens tangle your yarn, men tangle your wits, and it's simple as breathing for both. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-28 08:20:32
subject: <b>i strongly disagree</b>
body:
The main reason i disagree is that this theory hinges on osan`gar using the true power to escape. Sadly we have already been told in the same book that Mordin is the only forsaken allowed to use the true power since his `annointing` as the dark one`s champ. Also a fire hot enough to lower the level of the hill by a noticable amount including all the trees and a sizable amount of dirt is bound to turn bone to ash , when aes sedai throw balls of fire at enemies it tends to leave large holes in bodies burning bone and organs so i think it only sensible to assume that the 2nd most powerful sa`angreal ever made for a man would burn bone. And after all e has to get rid of some forsaken now and again , i thought the irony of the situation was that he was killed by a member of the black ajah !!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> Pastor of the church of the probable opinions <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" />  marked with the dreaded LVIII  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" />  bearer of the monolith  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> Irish man of good Celtic stock <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> ready to answer the call of the horn <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> Fourth Letter Telamon <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-28 08:21:51
subject: <b>What are the chances...</b>
body:
...That Shaitan woould even want to bring back Osangar (or Arangar if she turns up dead, which was insinuated at the end of Book 9)? The Dark One seems to have a big problem with failure and Aginor has failed him twice now.<br /><br />   I'd say that he has almost as small a chance as Asmodean of getting resurrected. Well maybe there's a wider gap but not too wide. If Belthalmel ends up deceased again (what with the way that ashamon leaped at her I'd say the chances are 75%) then she'd be in trouble too. At least this is what I hope. If bad guys keep coming back from death that'll get old real fast.<br /><br />   By the way an interesting thought occurred to me the other day. When Rand and Nynaeve were using the access keys to cleanse the taint there was a simple way to end things that none of the forsaken ever thought of. Instead of gating to where Rand was, why not gate to the site of the Choedan Kal(s)? If they bale fired the sa'angreal themselves (or even just one) that would nip the problem right in the bud. Just a thought.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-28 08:39:30
subject: <b>Balefiring a used uber-sa'angrael?</b>
body:
Don't you think that would be more than a little dangerous?  Sounds to me like destroying a Choedan Kal, especially one in use, would cause mass destruction to shame a fusion bomb from which said Forsaken could not escape.  It might even make that Forsaken non-resurrectable, after all, it is a HUGE amount of One Power.  Also, we know that they knew what was going on by the huge amount of power in one place, like a second sun.  Who says the Forsaken know where the Choedan Kal are?  We know that Lanfear knows about the male one in Cairhien, but she's Cyndane now and has to follow Moridin's orders, and if Moridin didn't know, the sa'angreal doesn't blow.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Your.Master <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-28 09:57:50
subject: <b>My Impressions</b>
body:
Osan'gar might have actually pulled off something for the Dark One (although Rand didn't need help to distrust his Asha'man) but I too think Aginor died a second time. <br /><br />Remember his thoughts as he prepared his attack on Rand's company--he was almost giddy over being the one to destroy Rand. He did not expect an attack. That was when the Black Ajah woman (forgot which one. Elza?) made a hole in the hill the size of a bowling alley. <br /><br />On this subject, I think that if Moghedien was sucked into a swirling mass of two powerful evils, if she lived she will be completely insane. I don't expect her to come back as a female version of Padan Fain.<br /><br />Cyndane and Aran'gar lived. Cadsuane's thoughts of &quot;a few singed Forsaken&quot; suggested that Cyndane lived, and Aran'gar's attackers hadn't regrouped as of the time we left that section--they were shocked, disturbed and confused over a woman--a woman Egwene described as &quot;more of a male fantasy than actual woman&quot;, no less--was channeling Saidin. I'm betting she got those guys.


created: 2001-06-28 10:09:36
subject: <b>Aginor is Dead</b>
body:
&quot;...Cadsuane did not like losing two of her people  in return for no more than a few singed Forsaken and one dead renegade.&quot;  The dead renegade would be Corlan Dashiva AKA Osan'Gar.  He probably showed up in his asha'man uniform.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Hey<br />You're a crazy bitch<br />But you f<i></i>uck so good, I'm on top of it<br />When I dream, I'm doing you all night<br />Scratches all down my back to keep me right on</font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-28 14:32:50
subject: <b>Osan'gar is dead.</b>
body:
Callandor vaporized the top of the hillside.  The book does not say the rock turned molten and ran down the hillside in streams of lava.  The fireball vaporized everything.  <br /><br />Regarding using the True Power to escape: Moridin and Shadar Haran are the only ones who can use the True Power.<br /><br />Regarding that he's an AoLer and could have made a shield to defend himself: I suspect even the strongest shield made by one person, no matter how powerful, is not as strong as Callandor controlled through a circle of three.  Rand barely deflected Osan'gar's attack in TPoD with an AoL super-shield dredged up from Lews Thernin's memories.  Then there's the fact that Osan'gar's PoV shows he was convinced no one knew he was about to attack.  Since Osan'gar had no real combat experience, there's even more reason to think he was fried. <br /><br />Regarding how Cadsuane could say there was one dead renegade: Elza recognized him as a renegade before she vaporized him.  Surely she would have told Cadsuane and the others that she just destroyed a renegade.  Before Osan'gar closed in Elza had stopped divesting the forest with Callandor.  Osan'gar's PoV even stated she was circling the hilltop, scanning the surrounding area for the Forsaken.  Her deliberate destruction of a hilltop would have called for an explanation.  And for that matter, if Elza didn't report that she killed a renegade, then why would Cadsuane think they killed a renegade?  Who else did they have a confirmed kill on?  From the content of the book, I would say Cadsuane thinks Elza killed a renegade with Callandor.<br /><br />Regarding whether Osan'gar can be resurrected: Who knows.  The Dark One resurrected him previously when all that was left of him was greasy ashes.  The Dark One probably can resurrect him, but it really comes down to whether the Dark One would want to.  My thoughts are Osan'gar is gone for good.


created: 2001-06-28 15:26:02
subject: <b>He is dead</b>
body:
Aginor was concentrated on weaving balefire. He had no defenses. Keep in mind that no one of the forsaken knew where the would be going.<br />   Besides, the DO claimed that balefire would throw the dead forsakens beyond his reach... He never mentioned it, but shouldnt Belal be (finnaly) dead too? Moiranne toasted him with balefire


created: 2001-06-28 15:53:06
subject: <b>i can't believe it!</b>
body:
47% actually think that he's alive... come on, folks! NO WAY that he could have survived. and as for sammael: he's dead, dead, dead. RJ said so.


created: 2001-06-28 16:37:24
subject: <b>Oh my God!</b>
body:
They killed Aginor!  You (bleep)!<br /><br />All I can say is he's dead and not coming back.  I'm sure the DO smacked himself in the forehead when clever ol' Osan'gar tried to be sneaky and ended up being the first Forsaken to die twice.  I wonder if Elza would've killed Osan'gar if she knew it was a Forsaken...Verin's little tricks really seem to make the Aes Sedai worship Rand and what he has to do.  <br /><br />Aginor is definently the &quot;Kenny&quot; of WoT.<br /><br />


created: 2001-06-28 22:28:18
subject: <b>Counter</b>
body:
I never once said that the Dark One would ressurect him again.  I think that if you fail him twice, you are gone for good.<br /><br />As for the True Power thing, I agree that he probably did not use it.  I only said that it was a slim possibility.<br /><br />As for him having no defenses, I do not believe this is true.  True, none of the Forsaken were expecting to be attacked when they first gated in, which is why a couple almost died from the blasts.  After that, though, only an idiot would not be prepared to defend him or herself.<br /><br />I just reread the chapter, and nowhere does it say he was not expecting an attack.  It only says that his genius was not suited to military matters.  This may mean that he was silly enough to walk around unprepared, but I do not think that this is the case.<br /><br />I agree that my bone argument was probably ill thought out.  I wasn't remembering that part of the chapter correctly.  My bad.<br /><br />However, no one seems to have countered my argument that he used Saidin to escape.  Recall, Elza was the only one walking around.  Narishma had his head in the other one's lap, and wasn't paying much attention.  With all the Saidin in the area, it's easy to see why he missed a gateway forming, especially when he's not alert.  Also, recall that Osan'Gar was watching the hilltop as he wove balefire.  It's possible that he saw Elza spot him and sensed her draw on Callandor (though that may not be true.  there WAS a lot of Saidin in the area <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> ).  I believe that he had time to get away, fearing death more that he did Moridin.<br /><br />Plus, there is no real need to be rude in your comments.  It is, after all, just a theory.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Hope of Mankind <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /> Protector of Blondes <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> Poster Guy for the Incurably Wacky <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /> Priest of Narg<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> Owner of the Endless Decanter of Booze <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-29 17:40:57
subject: <b>RJ...</b>
body:
... said Sammael got eaten up. Sml's soul may come back (even Balefired people are reborn except maybe the Grey People) in another life. BUT he failed so the Do is not gonna give him a new body. Aginor failed twice, no body this time... Say Tubby Bye_bye you Forsaken git Aginor!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;We wont give a fig,<br /> We'll tell you to,<br /> Go stick your head in a pig!&quot;<br />  The Sirius Cybernetics Customer Services Helpline - Share and Enjoy!</font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-01 17:36:59
subject: <b>At least he had guts!</b>
body:
I don't know guys.  I think that Aginor at least had the kahoneys to get close.  Half of the other chickens were running screaming through the forest with fireballs landing 5 feet behind them, or else hiding.  And they call themselves the 'chosen'!  lol  I think the Dark One will at least give Osan'gar a break because he wasn't panicing about saving his own hide.  Even though he failed at least he tried!  Can't say that about any of the others.  If the DO has any idea what happened there I'll bet he's really pissed at most of them.  If they were a little less self-serving and a little more loyal to the shadow they probably would have succeeded.  Its nothing for the DO to resurrect someone, loyalty on the other hand, among the forsaken seems hard to come by lately.<br /><br />     The only question that I have, is that if this whole event were really that important, then where were Moridin, and Shaidar.  Why not bring out the big guns?  I can just see shaidar stepping out of the nearest shadow, and Cadsuane runs like she's on fire screaming like a banshee, not to mention the rest.  Wait a second who's side am I on here!?   lol<br /><br />P.S. Not that I think that Agi'gar necessarily should come back, just that they're good odds that he could.


created: 2001-07-04 17:13:49
subject: <b>Good Point Monkey</b>
body:
I think that Aginor is more likely to be on Shaitans Good side than say Moghedien. When Shaitan gets a hold of her, and finds out that she just sat on top of a hill and watched the taint get sucked off the source like she was at a pick nick. If I know ol ShaitDawg like I think I don't, he's gonna have Shadar Haran rip her a new... well you get the idea I think.<br /><br />   In fact one of the things I like to imagine is who among the forsaken is on the lowest rung (that is to say among the still living ones).<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-10 07:22:16
subject: <b>Osan'gar is Taim: Demandred is Dashiva</b>
body:
The start of this theory is that we do not see Taim till after the appearance of the 'Gars. In LoC prologue Shaidar Haran says the bodies were the best that could be found at that time. Now at that time the black ajah had already freed Taim and taken him somewhere, In my opinion to SG. The only reason everyone thinks that Taimendred exists is because of the fact that at the end of LoC he Dem says to the DO &quot; Have I not done well?&quot; Now wouldn't it be Plausible to say that this meeting is actually after the return to Cairhein because when would Dem have time to go to SG. Now wouldn't the DO really like one of the Chosen to be a spy extremely close to Rand. Who does Rand pick out of the Asha'man but Dashiva. Also, who gave Flinn the suggestion (albeit gudgingly) to learn healing to a higher degree, Dashiva. Now at the end of PoD Taim is shocked that Dashiva would attack Rand because Dem was the one who was always sayin not to touch Rand cuz of the DO's orders.<br />I'm sorry if this seems like rambling but if you think about it Doesn't Robert Jordan love misdirection. I think that this would be the best way to misdirect everyones ideas of who Osan'gar and Demandred are masqerading as. By switching the identities as it would seem.


created: 2001-07-11 15:06:46
subject: <b>No Chance</b>
body:
Not a chance.  The POV from the battle proves that Osan'Gar was definitely Dashiva.  He's there in the bushes weaving balefire. Elza spots who she thinks is Corlan Dashiva and incinerates him (or drives him off).  No balefire, so that was Osan'Gar.  Unless you think that Elza would mistake Taim(who she has not seen) for Dashiva (who she has seen a LOT).<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Hope of Mankind <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /> Protector of Blondes <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> Poster Guy for the Incurably Wacky <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /> Priest of Narg<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> Owner of the Endless Decanter of Booze <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-16 13:24:53
subject:
<b>The Forsaken Ressurectees (is that even a word? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /></b>

body:
... are all on their last chance. Cyndane even *meaning* last chance in the OT, means its kind of a gimmie that the rest are back on the same terms.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-10-17 14:11:13
subject: <b>NO WAY!</b>
body:
this is to Rezekiah.  Not a chance is demandred osangar! hello, Elza only spots the RENEGADE ASHAMAN about to unleash something nasty toward Rand.  before this, we are actually at Dashiva/Osangar's side as he giggles that it is HE who will take out the Dragon.  and i think everybody is convinced now that Taim is just Rand's 2nd tier jerk; ala Dema being LTT's 2nd tier jerk.  read the books!


created: 2001-10-22 06:34:22
subject: <b>Sorry..</b>
body:
Osan'gar was burned out. How would a burned out channeler, even a Forsaken be able to form a gateway and get out of there when not able to channel? Hmmm?


created: 2001-12-19 12:22:52
subject: <b>Aginor the genius?</b>
body:
If Aginor is so smart how come he's the only guy who has managed to die twice.<br /><br />I reckon that at this stage RJ should be looking to tie things up rather that create more open ends (but then who can say).<br /><br />Oh why do people keep bringing up that loser Sammael.  Killed by fog, it doesnt get much more embarrassing than that.  I bet all the other dead forsaken are taking the piss (I was killed by the Dragon Reborn, you on the other hand...)<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />   My minions


created: 2002-05-06 00:34:22
subject: <b>Um...Morbid Angel</b>
body:
...Osan'gar burnt out?  Did I miss something?  He was in the process of weaving balefire, if he was burnt out he wouldn't be able to channel his way out of a wet paper bag.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>Hi!  I'm Mat!  I'm just like Mat from the WoT...except I don't have that hat, medallion, sword-spear, and I can't speak the old tongue...although I did dance with one of the Forsaken once...</i><br /><br />-Mat <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-20 21:51:41
subject: <b>Osangar is dead</b>
body:
&quot;I will not be undone!&quot;Ba'alzamon cried. His mouth was fire; his shriek echoed among the columns. &quot; I cannot be defeated! Aid me!&quot;<br /><br />&quot;You are destroyed!&quot; Rand shouted.Callandor spun in his hands.Its light roiled the darkness, severed the steel black lines around Ba'alzamon, and Ba'alzamon convulsed. &quot;You are undone!&quot; Rand plunged the shining blade into Ba'alzamon's chest.<br /><br />If Callandor killed Ishamael why would it not kill Osan'gar. <br /><br />To paraphrase RJ Aginor is toast.


created: 2002-10-16 06:50:17
subject: <b>Born again Osan'gar?</b>
body:
Cadsuane ruminated over a dead renegade - Corlan Dashiva.<br />As balefire was not used to level the hill top, presumably his thread has not been burned out of the pattern.<br />Therefore it does not mean that Aginor will not get another body. Unless of course the Dark One decides that this Forsaken has made one mistake too many. :-)<br />


created: 2002-12-12 07:03:32
subject: <b>I agree with Aizela.</b>
body:
After all, if he was busy making balefire then he couldn't Travel away, and the 'coruscating fire' that leveled the hill made the new hilltop SMOOTH AS GLASS. What a way to die.<br />Of course, if he comes back YET AGAIN, the series may never end.<br /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/myrddraal.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">The lateness has come to the thrashing.<br /><br />Visit www.aww-mud.org and click Telnet.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-12-30 00:30:13
subject: <b>Lets Think This Through</b>
body:
Ok as for Sammael we know that he is dead since Robert Jordan said so making all the theories that say otherwise null and void. We also know that none of the forsaken except for Moridin and Shaidar Haran still have the privilege to touch the true source so that's not an option. As for using Saidin to escape I would imagine that if Aginor was about to use Balefire on the dragon reborn it would be a large dose and as far as we know he did not poses even an Angreal so the possibility that one forsaken that we have already seen defeated without the help of Angreal could have stood up to three channelers linked and wielding Callandor is a hard pill to swallow. There is also the point regarding Aginor being prepared in a dangerous situation but we see in almost every scene that Corlan Dashiva isn't a very focused person and that is not very odd considering he is more of an inventor then a general or even a soldier so he could have never even given that thought all together it really points to Aginor being dead yet again. We may see him resurrected again but I doubt it unless the DO wants to go with the 3 strikes and your out deal, not likely but it is possible. I would like to point out also that people often seem rude in the black board because they are making direct statements and given that there are few ways to make a typed message impart the authors intended inflection and temper those statements can easily be interpreted as rude. So if they are not directly insulting you or your theory and it hurts your feelings then you are being insecure and over sensitive.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br />  As for the rest of the black board comments when and where was it mentioned that Dashiva was burned out? If you believe RJ when he wrote that Dashiva was in the process of channeling Balefire then that would be impossible and I doubt that RJ is even capable of overlooking a mistake that size. As for the comment by mjasghar stating &quot; Sml's soul may come back (even Balefired people are reborn except maybe the Grey People) in another life.&quot;  I guess it is possible for Sammael to return I don't think it has been explained what the effects Mashdar has on the souls of the people it devours but based on RJs comment that Sammael is toast id bet against it. But it has been stated that when a person is Balefired it burns their thread out of the pattern the stronger the weave the further back they disappear but their soul is unreachable so it is gone for good it no longer exists they will not be reborn.  Finally can we please quit pretending that Taim is Demandred or any other forsaken I agree that he fits a few of the criteria to be Demandred but the timeframe doesn't work so please stop posting Taimandred theories and posts if it turns out that you were right all along ill apologize humbly but until that time give it a rest. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /> ITS TIME TO TOSS THE DICE <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Seine sovya caba'donde ain dovienya<br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-21 14:19:53
subject: <b>No</b>
body:
While I may agree that Aginor was a genious, but he was his own biggest fan.  This is the second time he has died from his overconfidence.  The first time he made the mistake of underestimating Rand.  This time it seems obvious that he was unconcerned with the &quot;so-called Aes Sedai&quot; (even though they were linked to callandor) that he practically strolled right up to Rand.  I doubt anyone so sure of success would have had adequate protection.<br />   As far as the body goes, if the hill is fifty feet lower than it was before, I think it's safe to assume that the body burned up.  Elza knows what she is doing and she was linked to the second most powerful sa'angreal in the world.<br />   I'm not saying that we won't see him again, but for now he is dead.


created: 2003-05-02 23:40:05
subject: <b>Tom Grinwell</b>
body:
Lanfear said it was the third-strongest man sa-angreal &quot;'Not with that certainly', she added, gimacing at Callandor. 'There are only two more powerful a man can use. One at least, I know, still exists.&quot; (tSR, ch. 9, &quot;Decisions, p. 127-128, Hardcover). I suppose it could be the second-strongest surviving sa'angreal, but it may be third.


created: 2005-09-18 15:03:23
subject: <b>Interesting point New Forsaken</b>
body:
I'd forgotten that Lanfear said there's a male sa'angreal weaker then Choedan Kal but stronger then Callandor.  Hmm, any theories on whether it survived to modern times?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Number of people I've gotten into Wheel of Time: 6  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smirk.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smirk.gif" border="0" /> Velahrn of the Order of Cadsuane Haters  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smirk.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wheel of Time, Lord of the Rings and Star Wars fans unite! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-blue.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gandalf.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gimli.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rand.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2007-06-10 19:23:23
subject: <b>I think he is dead</b>
body:
I would say that Osan'gar got killed, but this also reaises another issue why are the forsakens so USELESS? back in book one they seemed Godlike, now as we read most of the books they seems to die like flies.


created: 2001-06-27 20:05:27
subject: <b>It can't be that powerful.</b>
body:
When Nynaeve observes the AS using it, in a circle no less, she commments that she could probably channel half as much unaided. <br />That's assuming my memory serves me correctly <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;The law of probabilities decreed me guiltless of his blood for in all my small experiences with guns, I had not hit anything I had tried to hit, and I knew I had done my best to hit him.&quot; ~ Mark Twain</font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-27 20:35:11
subject: <b>I just looked it up at tGH</b>
body:
Do you think the lightstick is the Sa'Angreal or does Bayle accuire the Rod later. But it's described as a plain glass rod so you probably think of this. I don't think that a lightstick is a Sa'Angreal and here's the quote why: &quot;Lightsticks shattered like glass, too; he nearly lost Spray  in the fire by the first he owned&quot;. So if you are refering to this I have to dissapoint you. But about the Angreal you'r probably right, here's the quote: &quot;who sold it [ivory statue] had claimed it if you held it long you started to feel warm&quot;. Egwene has a different experience when touching a Angreal in Tanchico in Tel. So the man who sold it was probably a male channler who could have used it better than Bayle.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;All universal moral principles are idle fantasies.&quot;<br /><br /> Marquis de Sade</font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-28 05:26:20
subject: <b>Small correction</b>
body:
Bayle Domon has his collection no more. All his belongings were handed over to High Lord Turak (sp?), when Egeanin intercepted his ship near Falme.


created: 2001-06-28 05:47:47
subject: <b>I think only the Seal was handed over</b>
body:
to Turak if I recall it right. The other things remained at his ship. But if he lost this ship now so I'm not sure he the things still.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;All universal moral principles are idle fantasies.&quot;<br /><br /> Marquis de Sade</font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-28 08:07:33
subject: <b>If he did lose those things...</b>
body:
...Then Eagenin may have them. She did end up buying him afterall. Of course other things of his may have been auctioned off. I recall that Eagenin made a comment about how expensive Bayles freedom was to her, so she may not have had the money to get his precious items.<br /><br />   If the item is indeed the male sa'angreal that has been alluded to, then I imagine we'll find out sooner or later what happened to it.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-28 08:55:55
subject: <b>All of Domon's collection is stolen...</b>
body:
but I believe that though it wasn't the crystal rod, Domon probably does have that.  He has SO many strange things.  How many people walk around with a seal (which the Amyrlin is supposed to keep)?  Even if the second sa' isn't his, his collection will likely prove of importance in the future.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Your.Master <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-04 14:18:08
subject: <b>I think you're all looking too deep into this...</b>
body:
I remember Moraine or someone else saying something like &quot;Callandor is a very powerful Sa'Angreal. Only 2 were more powerful.&quot; Many people here seem to be assuming that this means that there is a most powerful one, and a second most powerful one. The way I see it is that the Female Statue Thing Sa'Angreal and the Male Statue Thing Sa'Angreal (the ones used to cleanse the source) are the two more powerful than Callandor. This means that in terms of power, Callandor is the second most powerful Sa'Angreal, but 2 Sa'Angreal are more powerful than it.


created: 2001-07-04 17:07:13
subject: <b>From what I recall....</b>
body:
...It was Lanfear who told Rand that there were only two Male Sa'Angreal more powerful than Callandor. If the masculine Choedan Kal was one, then where's the other. By the way isn't the point of a theory board to look at things too deeply?...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-23 10:53:47
subject: <b>Lanfear's Speech</b>
body:
Okay, I'm not exactly looking through the passage or anything, but I'm pretty sure I remember that when Lanfear was talking to Rand in<br />TSR just before the attack, she talked about this missing sa'angreal as though she didn't even know whether it still<br />existed. Maybe it was destroyed in the Breaking or something. Or maybe Lanfear knows for a fact it doesn't exist<br />anymore. Who knows? In any case, from what I've seen of the male Choeden Kal and Callandor, they're powerhouses<br />enough by themselves! In another note, about those lightsticks... They seem like some kind of lightbulbs or something to<br />me. Sure, more advanced than ours, but isn't everything in the Age of Legends? Besides, I was thinking it said it didn't<br />have to do with the One Power anyway... Well, that's about it..


created: 2001-07-28 15:51:26
subject: <b>looking too deep...</b>
body:
Unless someone finds the quote of Lanfear saying specifically two _male_ Sa'angreal, I think Dave is correct that the 'two more powerful sa'angreal' are the Choeden Kal.


created: 2001-09-05 16:48:08
subject: <b>Lanfear's quote about male sa'angreal</b>
body:
Lanfear:<br /><br />&quot;'[I won't trust you] with that, certainly,' she added, grimacing at Callandor. 'There are only two more powerful that a man can use. One at least, I know, still exists.&quot;<br /><br />from The Shadow Rising, Chap. 9, p. 182 (paperback)<br /><br /><br />Maybe the elusive second one is so elusive because it was destroyed.<br />


created: 2001-11-04 00:27:37
subject: <b>missing Sa'angreal is in the mountains of mist</b>
body:
I think the missing Sa'angreal is in the mountains of mist and was used by its queen in the trolloc wars that subsequently destroyed manetheren.  I think it is also possible that this Sa'angreal may be used by either a man or a woman...


created: 2001-12-13 14:44:07
subject: <b>MIssing Sa'angreal</b>
body:
I just came across something in &quot;The World of Robert Jordan's The Wheel of Time.&quot; Page 44 talks about Callandor in the side margin. It says, refering to Callandor &quot;possibly second only to the giant male and female statues...&quot; This seems to indicate it may be the second most powerful, but it still leaves room for doubt. I don't know, but just thought I'd throw that out there and let everyone pick over it.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Pronounced: &quot;Rand was here&quot;<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shakefist.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-24 14:56:31
subject: <b>Not Quite</b>
body:
You all are forgetting that the two staues holding the crystal globes are the most pwerfull, and that callandor is second for men. The &quot;ivory&quot; wand is the most powerful sa'angreal the tower has, and although it is certainly weaker than the statue, it isn't necessarily the second most powerful female sa'angreal at all.


created: 2005-07-03 22:54:17
subject: <b>Present tense</b>
body:
When Lanfear referrs to the two more powerful sa'angreal, she referrs to them in present tense. She simply is unsure of what happend to one of them. Jordan must have included Lanfear's comment on the sa'angreal for a specific reason. However, the questions is how come Lanfear seems the only one to posses such knowledge. None of the male Forsaken mention this mysterious sa'angreal.


created: 2001-06-29 17:36:05
subject: <b>This is a darn good Theory!</b>
body:
And I will have to think about it for a while.<br /><br /><br />But here comes my random thoughts.<br /><br />1. Mat doesnt like Elayne cuz she is snobbish and he definatley doesn't like Nynaeve (guess why) Egwene however have been a close friend for most of his life so he would surely want to protect her the most.<br /><br />He finds they have been taken at Mother Guenna's. He punches the wall and she replies &quot;it seems you care for them, one of them at least&quot; and &quot;whoever you have your eye on will have a hard time training you&quot;. Mat doesn't reply directly to the question.<br /><br />Ofcourse he doesnt reply, He likes Egwene as a friend and he doesnt like Elayne or Nyna. If someone tells him that they think he is in love with em WHY should he reply <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br /><br /><br />Thom has witnessed all Mat's concerns for Egwene. Later when Mat is fretting over Egwene becoming Amyrlin he tells a story of saving a woman he loved from her bootmaker husband. Mat replies that he is just trying to &quot;save her fool neck&quot;. Thom murmurs &quot;save her from the bootmaker you mean&quot;. Mat ignores what he said.<br /><br />This is about Mat trying to get Egwene away from being an Aes Sedai even though she wants to be it <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Thanks for my word <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br /><br />Ps. It was a great Theory, work on it a bit and it will be more convincing.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">~From beyond the Haze~<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-30 08:00:14
subject: <b>Wow...I've NEVER thought of this before</b>
body:
As Bad Ash and whoever's above me said, you pose a very convincing argument.  If true, though, I doubt it will have a major effect on the series.  It will be one of those &quot;I have a secret crush on you and it can never come to be&quot; replied by &quot;Okey-Dokey.  I'm lucky about the second part of your sentence&quot; scenes.  Then Mat grows to love the DotNM, Gawyn and Egwene get married, end of plotline.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Your.Master <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-30 11:31:48
subject: <b>NO!</b>
body:
Egwene is his childhood friend. Do you forget people you lived together with for 18 years like that.<br />   I dont think RJ will make this thing more complicated now. Egwene will marry Gawyn, and Mat Tuon


created: 2001-06-30 17:26:07
subject: <b>Danged good theory...</b>
body:
You picked up on some things I miss. By the way did anyone else think for a minute that the guy above me said that egwene would marry a guy named Mat Tuon? I just found that to be a bit funny is all.<br /><br />   By the way put me down in the 'child hood friends category'. I think that Mat is displacing his worry for his sisters on Egwene. She's the last link he has to his child hood (aside from Rand Perrin and Nynaeve). When he thinks of her he thinks of the sisters he left behind at home and what might happen to them.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-02 20:10:28
subject: <b>What are we 12?! Who cares!</b>
body:
RJ has enough loose ends to tie up to last him another 9 books and I don't even want to contemplate a Jerry Springreresk Mat, Egwene, and Tuon tryangle of lust.  This plot goes nowhere!  <br /><br />Nuff Said


created: 2001-07-02 23:51:22
subject: <b>Well for clarification purposes</b>
body:
If Mat does have some kind of repressed feelings for Egwene then we'd get a Love Hour Glass not a Love Triangle.<br />That's because it'd be two Triangle that share a common point. THat be Gawyn and Galad who both like Egwene, and Egwene and Tuon who are both liked by Mat. Once Berlaine Gets thrown in (she is Galads man in white afterall) then things will get REALLY interesting.<br /><br />   Of course we're all 12 year olds by the way, it just depends on how you count age is all. Who knows how long a year is anyhow.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-03 04:05:24
subject: <b>If not Eggie, maybe Layny?</b>
body:
I've noticed all of what you pointed out and thought about it a lot.  Maybe MAt just never said anything to Egwene because best bud Rand was her man, but when that's over with, Mat spends a lot of time wondering about his feelings.  If we accept what some people hold, that Mat sees Egwene only as a friend, then he must feel something towards Elayne.  Reasons/proofs?<br /><br />Mat seems to comment quite a bit on how he would dance with Elayne if she wasn't so priggish, even if Rand had a thing for her.<br /><br />Mat says how much he hates nobles entirely too much, like on the disclaimer level, people.<br /><br />Mat seems to pay a little more attentuion to Elayne in CoS than is prudent when he is just supposed to watch her for Rand.  Notably, he lets himself see her bodice-oval and admires in the house in the Rahad.  <br /><br />Elayne has promised herself that she is going to show him some manners.  This foreshadows them spending a lot of time together.<br /><br />As I mentioned, Mat isn't really bothered that the Dragon Reborn staked a claim on her slopes.  I foresee a real fight, moreso than Rand's with Perrin, and might not one of their injuries, Mat's eye or Rand's hand, come from this?<br /><br />It could just as easily be Egwene Mat likes.  She could bond him warder along with Gawyn.  She is Green.  Wouldn't be surprised to see Gawyn kick the bucket though.  A sort of Ingtar like death, though Gawyn is not a darkfriend.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="blue"><b>Arok Manok</b></font><font color="green"> - Ex-admin Extraordinaire</font><br />Future Post-Apocalypse Warlord<br /><br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/2241.gif" /><br /><br />I'd rather be throwing a frisbee right now</font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-04 22:47:32
subject: <b>Oooh, a foursome...</b>
body:
Let's see, if the theory is true, Mat+Tuon, Mat+Egwene, Egwene+Gawyn, Galad+Egwene, and Berelain+Galad.  Hell of a love pentagon.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /><br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /><br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /> <img src="images/personalsmilies/81.gif" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-07 20:26:01
subject: <b>mat.......and...egwene.........jesus...</b>
body:
am i the only one who's seen the way Mat dismisses women based SOLEY on the fact of them being Aes Sedai? in TDR, after he beats the hell out of Galad and Gawyn, and the Aes Sedai and Accepted go over to tend to Galad, he sees a plump girl he &quot; might have asked to dance if she wasnt going to be Aes Sedai &quot;<br /><br />Mat probably cares about Egwene the way Elayne cares about Aviendha and Min. brother/sister kind of stuff. Trying to protect her. Mat's experiance with sisters is a bunch of older girls who get him in trouble. Egwene, who isnt quite as bad, is a better person to think of as a sister.<br /><br />Evidence that Mat will fall in love, deep, for Tuan is when he looks at her , before she offers him money for his spear, and he says something along the lines of &quot; most women you could look at and imagineing dancing or kissing them, but not Tuon &quot; this means she's different than any other woman he's ever met, esp since she can match, and some-what beat him in hand( literal )-to-hand combat, and him with the fastest hands Thom has ever seen. <br /><br />Thinking about Galad, Gawyn, and everybody else....i just realized that, since Galad is still in Ghealdea(sp?) as far as we know, he will prolly come in contact with Perrin and their group. Maybe the Whitecloaks with Galad will finally get some sense smacked into them, and help Perrin &amp; co. hunt down the Shaido. That would allow Galad to save Berelain at some point, making her fall head-over-barely-clad-bosom for him. <br /><br /><br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" /> Knave <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" /><br />    Master of the Editors<br />    Perviest of the Pervs<br />    Slave to the World<br /><br /><br />time to roll the dice


created: 2001-07-08 15:35:36
subject: <b>Small point Knave</b>
body:
If Galad should eventually meet up with Perrin and co. then he will not have to save Berlain. She wasn't taken prisoner by the Shaido. Of course if this does happen and Berlain gets all googly eyed over Galad, Perrin will finally get some much needed relief.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-20 20:28:54
subject: <b>Hey!</b>
body:
Maybe Egwene and Tuon will fall in love!!!  Tuon ditches Mat, Egwene ditches Gawyn, Galad won't be angry with Gawyn...  That would solve all this third party stuff... heh heh... <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />		- Lan_Rocks! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="images/personalsmilies/4162.gif" /> Cat Lover<br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" />Aes Sedai to Cavrin <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" />Proud Member of Allie's Angels!<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" /> December 18th! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" /><br /><i>The challenge is to be yourself in a world that is trying to make you like everyone else.</i></font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-03 00:34:08
subject: <b>NO WAY</b>
body:
He loves Egwene as a sister.  He thought of rescuing Egwene first because 1. He barely knows Elayne, and 2. He doesn't care much for Nynaeve.<br />Perrin has also demonstrated the same fierce loyalty and caring towards Egwene as MAt has.<br /><br />altho, I don't know why...  If someone kidnapped her and it was up to me... I'd leave her there.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">~*~Evamarie~*~<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /> The Egyptian Goddess <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /> Princess of Eva Corner <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /><br />Rose of the Sun<br />Daughter of the Four Moons<br />Beloved Follower of Min<br />Devoted to the Destruction of Egwene<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/blush.gif" border="0" /> The Cutest Ever <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/blush.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-28 00:04:52
subject: <b>Just for the record</b>
body:
I don't have any opinions on this theory that have not already been said, but if Mat DID love egwene (he doesn't), and if it came to a fight between him an Gawyn, or Galad, or both, for her love, mat would kick their asses.  When Mat was starving, and weakened immensely by mahsadar, he whupped both of them into oblivion.  Admittedly galad and gawyn are both a little better than they were then, but mat is MUCH better.  he's got more memories of the past now, more battle experience, and a kick-ass ashandarei with an unbreakable blade.  Mat would           both.<br /><br />sincerely,<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />the wandering wotmaniac<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" />the wandering wolfbrother<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bela.gif" border="0" />the wandering cowbrother?<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bela.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />the lover of light and wisdom<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" />the all-seeing eye<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />the wandering wotmaniac<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-08 18:31:42
subject: <b>Mat does not have a 'thing' for Egwene</b>
body:
It referrs to &quot;Egwene and the others&quot; because Egwene and Mat grew up together.  Nyneave was in the same village, but she being the Wisdom that put a large gap between them.  Mat doesn't say much about Elayne because he thinks she's just some snotty brat.  It's the friendship of two people who grew up together, not to mention the fact that Rand is his friend, and he and Egwene were so close.  Mat is looking out for his friend, and his friend's ex.  Nothing more.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Kaldric<br /><br />Of course, [Quixote] carried it a bit too far. He thought that every windmill was a giant. That's insane. But, thinking that they might be...<br />--Justin Playfair, <i>They Might Be Giants</i></font><p></p>


created: 2001-12-06 15:17:32
subject: <b>No</b>
body:
I know its an old theory but for anyone else reading this...<br /><br />Quote from aCoS, Chapter 28: Bread and Cheese. From Mat's point of view, when he realises for the first time that he's never thought of Birgitte as anything other than a friend:<br /><br />&quot;Some women were just friends of course. A few. Egwene, for one, though he was not sure how that friendship would survive her becoming Amyrlin&quot;<br /><br />So there, he only thinks of her as a friend and is simply concerned about their friendship, nothing more.<br /><br />Nice idea though<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Jimbo <br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> We come, brother. We hunt. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />&quot;But I don't want to go among mad people,&quot; Alice remarked.<br />&quot;Oh, you can't help that,&quot; said the Cat: &quot;we're all mad here.&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2001-12-21 17:41:15
subject: <b>Perhaps once....</b>
body:
....Mat had a crush on Egwene when they were growing up together.  However, it was understood in Emond's Field that Rand &amp; Egwene would marry.  <br /><br />This would explain why he is so protective of her, but why he does not/could not pursue her.  He loved her while growing up and could not marry her.  Now, that love has simmered down... but he is still protective.<br /><br />Just a thought...<br /><br />- Eriya


created: 2002-01-05 21:32:38
subject: <b>He just might have that &quot;thing&quot; for Egwene</b>
body:
Now, I might just post this in a theory, but I do want to get it down here while it's fresh in my mind.<br /><br />Having read this I've now got this idea percolating in my head.  Also, I'm gonna make one remark to a theory about the Golden Hawk in Egwene's future.  What if... as Egwene is seiging the tower, Gawayn pulls a Galad, decides that following the &quot;Rightful&quot; Amryln (Elaida) is the good thing to do, so he goes to Egwene's camp, she is in love with him, so she would let him in, he could then capture her, and bring her back to Tar Valon, I think that Elaida said something about executing the false Amryln, so she would of course chop Egwene's head off.  But what if before this could happen, Suian took over the rebels, having been an Amryln and all, and sent someone to see Talmanes about getting the Band to help take over Tar Valon before Egwene could be executed, and at this moment, Mat and Tuon happen upon the band just as they are about to leave.  Mat would then be that person who is running to save Egwene, or if she is killed, then we could have Mat dicing with the Dark One, presumably to restore Egwene to life, as we all know that he can do that.  Should this happen, I think it would be proven that Mat has more than a &quot;Thing&quot; for Egwene.<br />And as my post-note, if Rand has 3 women, why can't Mat have two for himself, that would be quite the writing material for Robert Joran to work with.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">JeevesI<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /><br />Wielder of &quot;&#8482;&quot;<br />Asha'man extrodinare<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br />Ruler of the WoT faction at Mass-Defect</font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-10 12:29:37
subject: <b>swingers</b>
body:
hey what if mat + tuon and egwene + gawyn are swingers <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br />just a stray thought could get interesting though <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Lytjan Morilin<br /><br />


created: 2002-02-07 15:28:08
subject: <b>I've kind of thought this for a while . . . .</b>
body:
Isn't there more to that scene with Thom &amp; Mat in Salidar?  I remember Thom asking Mat something to the effect of, &quot;What are you feelings towards Egwene?&quot; . . .<br /><br />Mat didn't really understand what he was getting at &amp; just responded, &quot;I dunno, she's Egwene&quot;.<br /><br />I'll try &amp; find the scene when I get home tonight - maybe post again with the details.<br /><br />But Thom definitely noticed something, and he's not one to make many errors in judgement.


created: 2002-03-13 19:47:27
subject: <b>Might be reciprocal</b>
body:
In the chapter &quot;Hard Heads&quot; in The Shadow Rising (It takes place right after Egwene leaves Rand and Elayne alone), Egwene and Mat talk, and she seems awfully sympathetic towards him, wanting to put her arm around him, etc.  That plus the scene in Mother Guenna's house brought the possibility to mind, and no, I'm not rooting for it, so wishful thinking is not involved.  Also remember in CoS, Birgitte wonders aloud what is upsetting Mat about Elayne and Nynaeve.  She says it can't be that he has to follow them to Ebou Dar, since Egwene was involved in that too, and Birgitte &quot;saw him treat her with more respect than most Sisters (or Sitters).&quot;  The reason she seems to discover is Mat's rescue of them from the Stone of Tear, which she seems to find significant, even coercing them to apologize for their ingratitude.  Yet, to borrow a phrase, &quot;Egwene was as deep in that as (Elayne and Nynaeve),&quot; and she's never mentioned.  What better way for Nynaeve to regain a bit of moral grounds from Egwene than by nagging her to apologize to Mat and thank him.  Mat seems to think that Egwene doesn't owe him for that.  Maybe there is something going on and he's in denial, especially knowing he's going to marry someone else.  Rand and Lan denied being in love for a while too.<br />Finally, RJ himself has said there are strong King Arthur parallells in WoT, and note name similarities: Tigraine/Ygraine (Rand's and Arthur's respective mothers) Morgan-Morgause-Morgas LeFay/Morgase; Galahad/Galad; Gawain/Gawyn; Percival/Pelivar; Elayne/Elaine (Galahad's mother and/or [ha, ha] Lancelot's wife).  Now, whose name does Egwene al'Vere most closely resemble? Gwenivere! Famous for...? Cheating on her husband! Ta da!!  Also in the story of the Green Knight, Sir Gawain is forced to marry a witch, and part of the secret to his having a happy marriage is to acknowledge that she wants to have her own way, and submit to her wishes.  Sound like Gawyn's preordained love life?  I think so too.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-06 23:57:25
subject: <b>Come on</b>
body:
They grew up in a village together. Egwene is a major hottie. Some of the other girls in the village are cute, but Egwene is made out to be the cutest. We know Rand had a thing for her from most of the books. We know Perrin had a thing for her from their time with Elias Manchera in tEotW. We can assume Mat had a thing for her from the quotes above.<br /> But guess what? They left their village. Rand found another hottie... or three. Perrin found his... hottie I guess, if you go for big noses. And now Mat has found his hottie, though he certainly doesn't think of her as a hottie, except when she gets that mischevious look.<br /> Do you remember the first person you had a crush on? I do. Vaguely. I have moved on. So have they. Nothing will come of their previous relationships ecxept for the lasting friendship. Egwene will rule the Aes Sedia (eventually both male and female). Perrin will rule the unified countries after Rands drop from prominence following TG. Mat will be the General of the armies facing the Seanchan and the few surviving armies of darkness. All these leaders with their Two Rivers mentality and close friendships to heal the world.


created: 2002-09-11 23:53:54
subject: <b>Much as I like this theory...</b>
body:
... I can't see RJ setting up such a mess with Mat/Tuon/Egwene/Gawyn/Galad/Bela/Narg/etc... with so little time left to resolve it.  Sure he's sprung stuff on us before, but most of the romances had more foreshadowing than we've seen here.<br /><br />However, it would be worth all the mess just to see Mat whip Gawyn's candy-ass all over Randland one more time.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Veteran of the Butcher's Yard <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Remember Eben Hopwil <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-11-16 11:01:25
subject: <b>on raserei's comment</b>
body:
it wouldn't be Mat+Tuon, Mat+Egwene, Egwene+Gawyn, Galad+Egwene, and Berelain+Galad it would be Mat+Tuon,Mat+Egwene, Egwene+Galad, egwene+gawyn,Berelain+Galad, Mat+Elayne, Elayne+Rand, Rand+Min, Rand+Aviendha<br />Sounds like they need a couple king sized beds


created: 2003-01-07 03:44:23
subject: <b>Emotional Hopscotch</b>
body:
Given Jordan's penchant for giving most of his characters a rather murky self image, it's entirely possible Mat does inded--or did--love Egwene. It's a safe bet he just never realized it... or more accurately he never admitted to himself that she could be more than a friend, even after Rand was out of the picture.<br /><br />It is doubtful that this affection would be introduced as a new plot arc, especially when it seems to already be a complete one. Likewise, I don't see how it could affect Mat's prophesied relationship to the Daughter of the Nine Moons.<br /><br />As for me, I've always thought Mat felt more for Egwene than he let on; it's part of the realism of WoT... and an echo of real life's loose ends. Especially when it comes to matters of the heart.<br /><br />~ Eldrene's Veil <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" />


created: 2003-01-10 12:07:18
subject: <b>My God, yes!</b>
body:
It's about freakin' time!  Reread the first two, too.  Read them carefully.  It was obvious to me the <i>first</i> time I read it, but nobody else was saying anything so I kept my mouth shut <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shy.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">My brain has been swiss cheesed like Scott Bakula's on Quantum Leap</font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-21 05:20:56
subject: <b>A 'THING'????</b>
body:
But seriously, do you really think this is gonna happen after reading CoT? I found it pretty obviuos that the only female Mat had positive feelings about is Tuon. Kinda.<br /><br />And that stuff about him saying 'Egwene and the others' 8 times: She was the one of them he knew best. Why should he care about some stuck up noble with her nose in hte air. And Nynaeve? She spanked Mat when he was a truoblemaking kid back in Emond's Field, so I don't find it strange that he excludes her too.<br /><br />(The one I thought would get her hands on young Matrim, was actually Moiraine.. but with Thom in the picture? No.)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">The Shadow at Noon<br /><br />Economic liberalism and social darwinism has unnervingly much in common...</font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-07 00:28:39
subject: <b>You are unbelievably ignorant</b>
body:
First, both Mat and Egwene have romances already, nothing is bound to happen there. Second, we've already seen a &quot;hawk&quot; most likely it's just Berelain again. Third, WHY ON EARTH DO YOU CARE?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/egwene.gif" border="0" />Zerinia Faershiam<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/egwene.gif" border="0" /><br />129 w 87 tree<br />Murrinell Wood, WE, 98833<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-09-19 09:48:14
subject: <b>ladida</b>
body:
Mat has a thing for every girl...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">~From beyond the Haze~<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-10-25 09:03:02
subject: <b>Tai'Shar Manetheren!</b>
body:
Or: What about the Old Blood?<br /><br />What if Eg is Eldrene and Mat is Aemon reborn?<br /><br />From Moiraine's history in EothW:<br />&quot;Aemon al Caar al Thorin, Aemon son of Caar son of Thorin, and Eldrene ay Ellan ay Carlan was his Queen.&quot; <br /><br />Just before she says: &quot;You have forgotten who you were, forgotten what you were, but I had hoped some small part was left, some memory in blood and bone.&quot;<br /><br />Well, there it is: Mat speaks the Old Tongue, Egwene almost understands it. Eg and Mat's sisters are channelers.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">The only way to convince me is by providing some evidence!</font><p></p>


created: 2005-07-08 15:32:48
subject: <b>Actually...</b>
body:
Alot of people keep saying that if Mat did have a thing for Egwene at one point, it would do nothing for the plot. That's not exactly true. If Mat had actually been in love before, then it would help quicken his relationship with Tuon. Think about it. He won't be in denial for a freaking long if he had actually been in love with somebody else. And if that were the case, then, well, it will be a lot faster - and a lot easier - for Mat to fall in love with Tuon. <br /><br />So, yeah, I agree with this. It's so sweet I can't not agree with it <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-06-30 00:05:49
subject: <b>The armies are the borderlanders</b>
body:
There are four borderlander armies that Elayne visits and they agree to march to Camelyn to help her get the throne. The armies are not Androean nobles but the borderlanders!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> LordDrgn <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-30 08:05:56
subject: <b>You obviously spent time on the theory...</b>
body:
But I think those are the borderland armies, mislocated by bad intelligence, or a quick move, or something.<br /><br />My gut says Dyelin is a good person who won't betray Elayne, and I am happy with it so I feed it.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Your.Master <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-30 09:53:32
subject: <b>question.</b>
body:
did not she try to help Elayne against the Assasins?<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot; cogito ergo doleo.&quot;<br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> Veni, vidi, volo in domum redire<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" />Ecce potestas casei.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-30 16:44:52
subject: <b>Sweet mother love bone!</b>
body:
That was a good theory yo!<br /><br />   By the by since we haven't had a look into Dyelins head yet (i.e. a chapter from her perspective [that I can recall anyway] to show us her motives) we can't really fathom her motives. I still think there is a BA in the palace that came with Elayne, but Dyelin might be a DF.<br /><br />   If she is a friend of the dark, then trying to save Elaynes life is the best thing she could do. This gets her in close enough to Elayne that she will be trusted with out a doubt. The same principle is working for Hanlon. <br /><br />   The BA clearly wants that Trakand gal alive. So scaring her, and then having one or two people that she really trust in good with her might get their goal acheived.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-14 14:43:00
subject: <b>It can't be the borderlanders.</b>
body:
For one thing, they're coming from the wrong direction to the borderlanders.<br /><br />Next thing? She had -just- Traveled back when she was told the armies were approaching. They can't move that fast, and I doubt Elayne lost time in the Traveling.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b><i><font color="green">EmilyRose</font></i></b> <br />Roving webdesigner and graphic artist</font><p></p>


created: 2001-12-10 02:01:15
subject: <b>What about the Whitecloaks?</b>
body:
Why is everyone counting out the Whitecloaks.<br />The fact that:<br /><br />1. Pedron Niall and Eamon Valda both were planning to invade Andor because they had Morgase's treaty. Since Amadicia is overrun by the Seanchan, might they not continue with that plan and move on to easier pickings.<br />2. Galad was certainly in charge of same part of the Whitecloak army and would have more incentive to bring them to his sister's aid than trying to retake Amador.<br /><br />At least one of the armies approaching Caemlyn is a Whitecloak army, possibly two if Eamon Valda and Galad are leading separate factions of the Whitecloaks.  <br /><br />Also wild ass theory: What if Two Rivers is sending an army, don't know why, but it would be interesting for that region to stay involved with the world.<br /><br />Finally, ya'll need to give up on this Dyelin DF theory.  She would be dead trying to save Elayne if not for nearby Aes Sedai.  No one knowingly throws themselves on a dagger that is possibly poisoned in order to get closer to someone they are trying to overthrow or advise.  DF are inherently looking out for themselves and death would surely prevent them from getting the riches and immortality they all are promised.  You should be assuming that Daved Hanlon's person already in the palace is the same Aes Sedia involved in Adelas and Ispan's death. Occam's Razor, the simplest answer is always the best unless proven otherwise.


created: 2002-08-01 09:30:30
subject: <b>Remember they're coming from the East</b>
body:
The fact that they're coming from the East precludes a lot of possibilities.  It can't be the borderlanders, because they would be coming from the North.  It can't be a band from the Two Rivers, because they would be coming from the West.  It can't be Whitecloaks or the Band of the Red Hand, because they would be coming from the South.  That leaves Andoran nobles(likely), Gawyn and the Younglings(also likely, remember that Elaida didn't allow him back in Tar Valon), Carhien(maybe), Rebels from Haddon Mirk(possible I guess), Aiel(doubtful), or troops from Far Madding(very unlikely).  So the theory is most likely right on the mark, there aren't many possibilities..


created: 2001-06-29 21:38:50
subject: <b>What about Verin</b>
body:
So  if there are no such things as lightfriends, or as a true power that stems from the Creator, how the hell do you explain what Verin does in the stedding.<br /><br />When the elders bring the guy in, the stump lady tells verin to see for herself, and verin looks at her for a long moment before getting up to try.  Robert Jordan wouldn't put something that obvious in if it wasn't for a reason.  <br /><br />To be blunt, I think you're very wrong, and I'd like you to explain the above<br /><br />Kidblondeel


created: 2001-06-29 22:19:41
subject: <b>Verin and the stedding</b>
body:
Now this is mostly opinion and speculation, but it might answer a few questions.<br /><br />All AS have the ability to sense the DO and his creations regardless of whether or not they are channeling. (Dragkar for example. TGH) Now recognizing that, why wouldn't they be able to sense other things, regardless of whether or not they are channeling. (Egwene and the iron mine. TGH)<br /> So why wouldn't Verin be able to sense whether or not somebody had a soul in their bodies regardless of whether or not she could channel.  Cadsuane could see Nynaeve channeling in Far Madding when they weren't able to channel without Wells?  Think about it.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Imagen<br /><br />Bringing the Light to all who don't think Olver is Gaidal <br /><br />If Polgara and Sephrenia helped out, poor Rand would be doing whatever any woman told him to do.<br /><br />Is it just me or have the smiley&#8217;s gotten waaaaaaaaaaaay outta control?<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-29 23:17:49
subject: <b>Possibly a ter'angreal</b>
body:
There is also the possibility the Verin has a &quot;well&quot; ter'angreal.  That cool jiggy that allows Cadsuane and Nynaeve to channel in Far Madding.  I'm not saying that is the only for it to have worked, but I really hate the Lightfriend theories too. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angry.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Thou shalt not have any fun to speak of, ever, because God loves you.  Lies.9.13<br /><br />Sin being everything that feels good.  Romans.22.7</font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-29 23:44:26
subject: <b>Why do we need Lightfriends</b>
body:
Most people are good in this world, similarly in the world of WoT most people are good. So all of these people are potential fighters for the Creator. Lightfriends are not needed because most people feel He is the ultimate force and is worth supporting. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Hearts, stars, and horsheshoes,<br />Clovers and blue moons,<br />Pots of gold and rainbows, and me red balloons!!!<br /><br />If you go back in time and kill yourself, what would happen?<br /><br />Is that a penis in your pocket, or are you just happy to see me.<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-30 00:25:07
subject: <b>*applauds*</b>
body:
About time someone put the Lightfriend theory to rest. Thank you! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />~Jynna


created: 2001-06-30 08:19:09
subject: <b>Verin theory crushed like goo...</b>
body:
Remember the gray man when the girls first arrived in the tower?  Verin touched him, recognized him as a gray man immediately after contact (gray men have NO SOULS), and THEN we see the glow of channeling surround her.  Besides, how would the Ogier have known that Verin could touch that Ogier and know the she had no soul?<br /><br />Now, I always agreed that the voice at the end of tEOtW was that of the Creator.  But many believe it is the Dark One exerting his influence.  He speaks in much the same manner as later in the books, and talks of the chosen or chosen one (I forget which, but the DO has both).  So it isn't exactly commonly accepted.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Your.Master <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-30 11:29:46
subject: <b>Children of the Light</b>
body:
The Whitecloaks are your common 'lightfriend', but as we see fanatic followings always makes the line between right and wrong intertwined...<br />I think they would define themselves as lightfriends, so technically they do exist...<br />But as you say, there are no normal people who are secretly selling their bodies to the creator for a few secrets about the sins of the Dark One...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Dzugashvilli Incarnate<br />                  Infamous Dreadnaught<br />                  Baptist of Blasphemy<br /> <br /><i>Rules and Order are the bane of life <br /> Only chaos frees the soul</i> - Madrox Stalin</font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-30 14:01:34
subject: <b>Hey BLondeel!</b>
body:
To explain Verin....<br /><br />...Mayhaps she has some kind of talent that doesn't require channeling. By you're reasoning that Verin did something in a stedding that wasn't normal we can site Perrin as a light friend. How the hell else do you explain in EotW that he was able to talk to wolves IN A STEDDING!!!???<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-30 14:25:29
subject: <b>lightfriends suck !!!</b>
body:
this stupid light friends theory should be buried the people who think it up have no real clue about these books to invent such a stupid theory. As previously said elsewhere the light friends are everyone!!. the creator created the world and everyone in it the darkone gets darkfriends by turning these people to him , people who are not darkfreinds are obviously lightfriends , if Verin can touch the ogier and know he has no soul SO WHAT the other ogiers obviously could also tell and they dont channel or are they light friends too ???? Its just a pity bad language can not be used on this site as nice words just don`t describe the stupidity of people supporting the Lightfriends theory , I call for a ban to all such stupid postings ( or public floggings )  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> Pastor of the church of the probable opinions <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" />  marked with the dreaded LVIII  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" />  bearer of the monolith  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> Irish man of good Celtic stock <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> ready to answer the call of the horn <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> Fourth Letter Telamon <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-01 16:23:38
subject: <b>It All Depends</b>
body:
...on what you call a Lightfriend.  Now the Whitecloaks say that if you do anything to help the DO then you're a Darkfriend.  To take the opposite, then, a Lightfriend is anyone who helps the Creator (or, since the Creator's desires seem rather vague, oppose the DO).  If you accept that, then Rand and company are ALL Lightfriends. <br />But if you mean Lightfriends as in a big organization like the true DFs seem to be, then no, they don't exist -- or not by that name, anyway . . . Rand seems to be collecting all sorts of groups (Dragonsworn, Black Tower, etc.)<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> Possessor of a list of titles so long they can't all fit here. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I may be love's bitch, but at least I'm man enough to admit it. -- Spike</font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-01 17:37:44
subject: <b>sidebar</b>
body:
When Verin touched the Ogier she was not Delving(channeling).  Where has it ever said in any of the books that Moiraine or anyone else was channeling when they asses the spirit of anything,  It seems as if it is more their ability to be aware of things that gives them the insight.  The stedding does not stop their awareness it just hides the True Source from that awareness, nothing else.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where did these Skimmers come from?  I mean if they didn't want to read the book they could have just Traveled to another author.  Why risk arriving at the wrong destination?  Why risk falling into darkness?</font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-02 09:59:13
subject: <b>Explanation of Verin in the stedding in full</b>
body:
Alright, you wanted an explanation, you got one.  Here goes.<br /><br />The Ogier know that that guy had his soul eaten out by the black wind.  How do they know?  Did an Aes Sedai come and do something to let them know he was souless?  How did they expect Verin to know he was souless if it requires channeling since they KNOW no one can channel in a stedding?  In TDR we see through Nynaeve's or Egwene's eyes the body of the greyman with a dagger in him(the one who fired the crossbow bolt at him).  Sheriam comes by, touches the body, says &quot;Egad a greyman&quot; and THEN we see the halo of light surround her(IE she touched and identified him as a greyman before channeling) so she can hide his body.  Then in WH we see from Slayer's point of view, when he is recollecting about the very same greyman, that the body was very cold to the touch and had a sort of sucking feeling.  So clearly, since slayer cannot channel, touching a thing without a soul has physical characteristics.  In other words, Verin did not bloody channel in that damn stedding.  Is that proof enough for you kidblondeel?  Verin didn't use a well or any other such thing.  Although I suppose it's possible that I could be making all of this up...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Vercingetorix<br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/803.gif" /><br />Theory Post Admin<br /><br />I went to the doctor the other day and all he did was drain some blood from my neck.  Don't ever go to Doctor Acula.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-02 11:25:55
subject: <b>That it be, Jive Turkey!</b>
body:
Thank you for that discertation, V.  I am so damn sick of people saying that Verin must've channelled to determine the lack of soul when repeatedly it's been shown in the books that determining a lack of soul does <b>not require channelling!</b> (note bold type)<br /><br />Ok, I'm done. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="images/personalsmilies/80.gif" /><br /><br />Bad Ash<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-02 17:59:08
subject: <b>Vercingetorix.....</b>
body:
.....that was very good work there man.<br /><br />   By the way to all those still harping about whether or not Verin told a lie in TGH think about how practical the woman is. By now she has more than likely long since figured out that the Black Ajah can use the oath rod to revoke their anti-lying oaths. Verin may have done this for confirmation. Once she did it may have occurred to her that leaving those oaths (or at least the no lying clause) off might be a bit beneficial.<br /><br />   The reason that she's telling the truth most of the time is because she's keeping in habit so as not to raise the suspicions of other sisters. Now that the most likely candidate is out of the running that leaves us with the only likely light friend as Bela. Do I even need to elaborate on that?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-03 07:57:12
subject: <b>Elaborate! Elaborate!</b>
body:
Else I will contend that Bela is the Creator, so HA! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="images/personalsmilies/80.gif" /><br /><br />Bad Ash<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-03 23:03:21
subject: <b>Well if anybody sees this</b>
body:
I'm convinced, that Verin is not a Lightfriend and have buried the subject from my mind.  Good evidence, very conclusive.<br /><br />Well that's the last you'll hear me mention lightfriends or a true power that stems from the creator<br /><br />Kidblondeel


created: 2001-08-17 22:21:01
subject: <b>Even if...</b>
body:
Verin had to channel in the Stedding to do what she did, it's still only one piece of evidence against all kinds of evidence that there are no lightfriends.


created: 2001-10-24 01:58:02
subject: <b>Thwart the DO's efforts</b>
body:
You make some valid points in your arguement, but there are a few things to consider.  First I'd also warn against using modern theology in WoT world mainly becuase RJ mixes and matches theology and mythology and will and trying to draw too deeply from one could lead you astray.  The second point I'd make is about the Creator not interfering.  If the Creator wishes the Pattern to weave as the Pattern wills than its possible that the Creator would not be pleased that the DO was interfering with that, so he imprisons the DO.  After he is released and starts interfering again is it not possible that the Creator sends agents, Lightfriends for lack of a better name, to thwart the DO's plans, thus letting the Pattern weave as the Pattern wills, just the Creator wanted all along.


created: 2001-11-13 09:23:03
subject: <b>lightfriends as agents..</b>
body:
this theory of yours says that the Creator won't take part... I agree with you on that... but I believe he might have agents out in the world and I believe Verin one...<br />I can support my saying of his agents by saying: While letting agents do his bidding he don't take part... but the dark one has both agents and tries to take part himself...<br />the Creator just stays at agents...<br /><br />and why Verin, whell u hve all read this one before, but in the stedding before entering the Ways she can feel that the &quot;once ogier&quot; is empty inside, though noone else can feel it, except for the ogier that I believe is somewhat beeings of the earth and the wheel and have some abilities that the One Power gives without having to use it...<br /><br />Verin feels that, and Verin does many other strange things aswell. It can't be just happenstance that it is Verin that is in the Two Rivers when the trollocks come and Perrin is to defend the village. She seems to have real intrest in all of the 3 ta'veren boys even after Rand proclaimed himself. Not many other Aes Sedai have that intrest in neither Perrin nor Mat... <br /><br />Verin tells Rand what she knows of Saidin, and that is more than any other Aes Sedai know (not counting the forsaken/chosen) about it... she must have gotten that info from somewhere... and I believe she got it, at least indirekt, from the Creator himself...<br />Or she just might have foretelling and have been able to hide it for VERY long... one can't control foretelling as u know and thus it is hard to hide...<br /><br />


created: 2002-01-23 22:33:11
subject: <b>Lightfriends and Barney...</b>
body:
I've always thought lightfriends and Barney were a lot alike.  Not real, loved by children (or at least, by the childlike), and encouraged by most adults to DIE, DIE!, **DIE!!** (note the use of asterisks, exclamation points, and all caps in lieu of bold type).<br /><br />There are no lightfriends.  Taim is not Demandred.  Etc.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" />  Discoverer of logical inconsistencies  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-01 04:08:52
subject: <b>neither in favor of, nor against.....lightfriends</b>
body:
First, I have to say I'm not sure if there are any of these lightfriends or not. It would seem that if there were, we would have had at least some sort of clue so far. I don't believe that Jordan is that devious. <br />However, now that I have said that, I have a comment to make about several peoples assertion that anybody who is not a darkfriend must be, by default, a &quot;lightfriend&quot;. That is not nesesarily (sp?) so. As an example, I will use a &quot;well known fact&quot; from our own history. It is taken as a given that during the American revolution that it was 13 colonies full of people united against the evil rule of King George III. Not so. At most, perhaps 1/3 of the colonials supported independence, the 'patriots'. Another 1/3 actively supported the King, the 'Loyalists'(mostly known today as &quot;Canadians&quot;, because they had to abandon their homes and flee to lands still held by the King after 1783 to escape the sometimes small minority of patriots who were also out to get whatever they could from their former neighbors). That is only 2/3 of the population, so what about the other 1/3? They were the folks stuck in the middle, who didn't think the King was so bad, or that the patriots were really disloyal, but instead just wanted to get on with their lives and wished and hoped that the soldiers on both sides would fight somewhere else. They just wanted to pursue their chosen profession's in relative peace and stability. Who actually was at the head of the government didn't really matter to them as long as they were treated fairly and justly.<br />I believe that the world of the wheel would most likely break down along similer lines. Perhaps 10-20% of the population would actively seek out the dark, with 10-20% actively seeking out the light. The rest would just want to continue to be just farmers or smiths or merchants, and please keep your swords out of my backyard, thank you very much. If forced to choose between one or the other they would most likely choose the light, but if they had a couple fists of trollocs and a halfman at their front door who said &quot;fight in our army or be trolloc-chow&quot;, I'm sure they would take up a sword or pike, stay in the back, and hope nobody noticed them enough to stick something sharp in them.<br />The 10-20% who seek the dark on purpose and swear the oaths are, of course, the ones we call dark friends. The 10-20% who actively seek out the light are??? They gotta be called something. The Children of the Light could possibly fall somewhere in that category, as could the Aes Sedai (at least the ones in those groups who have not already sworn to follow the dark) BUT, not everybody who actively follows the light would want to seek out and join the Children, and not all would seek out Aes Sedai. They gotta fit in somewhere, so why not lightfriends?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Tai'Shar Preussen!<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/seanchan.gif" border="0" /> Der Ritter des Lichtes  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> Lord Protector of the Lady B.Alicia <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-19 07:41:23
subject: <b>Can we end this please</b>
body:
This thread seems to have devolved into petty bickering. Come on, can't we all just get along {without the use of ad Hominum}. In my opinion {everybody has one, just look up} there are two sides which are refusing to give up ground. So why not just let the other side think what they chose. Say what you think and stop trying to convert. You know, put a little bit of that post modern thought to good use. However to exercise my right to believe what I chose and express this belief I say this: &quot;A rose by any other name...&quot; What you chose to call them is up to you.


created: 2002-06-30 04:14:36
subject: <b>My 2 cents <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /></b>
body:
On the issue of lightfriends.  What would you call the heroes of the horn.  They are bound to the wheel by the creator through the pattern to fix stuff when it's about to get out of whack.


created: 2002-11-26 08:46:33
subject: <b>Lightfriends...hah!</b>
body:
You know, this theory is well thought out, and makes a lot of sense.  I do have one thing to say about the Creator's version of the True Power.  There really is one, and its called: The One Power.<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> Samshaidar Mhael,<br />                Leader of the Destroyers of Shadow<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Samshaidar Mhael<br />The Leader of the Destroyers of Shadow <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-blue.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-red.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/borg.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-green.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-purple.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />I am immortal, I have inside me blood of kings <br />I have no rival, no man can be my equal<br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-04-22 10:41:57
subject: <b>a few points!</b>
body:
i completely agree that the whole lightfriend thing is crap- surely if they existed rj would have told us by now!! another point is that not every one acceopts that it was the creator talking to rand at the end of tEotW- i sure dont!! if u remember rand was talking to ba'alzamon (i.e. the DARK ONE!!)when the voice spoke to him. it was typed in exactly the same way the DO talks later in the books and surely if the creator was going to start talking to the characters surely it would have happened again?!<br />well thats what i think anyway.<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-purple.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tinfoilhat.gif" border="0" /> Deranged and Loving It!! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tinfoilhat.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-07-30 08:23:34
subject: <b>big fat waste of time</b>
body:
this is the stupidest theory i have ever heard.  <br /><br />and i have heard a lot of stupid ones.<br /><br /><br />but this is the stupidest.<br /><br /><br /><br />big time.


created: 2006-04-22 04:31:27
subject: <b>Lightfriends and Original Sin</b>
body:
Obviously Jordan has involved many theological aspects into his books, and contemplation on this subject is quite varied, but I seriously doubt the existence of &quot;Lightfriends.&quot;  The fact that there is a darker nature to humanity doesn't neccessarily mean that there is an opposing sect to those darker parts.<br />  To put it in terms of Lord of Flies and Dungeons and Dragons:  On the island most of the kids eventually resorted to chaos, which led to a lack of self-control and evil acts resulting from that.  Thus, they became Chaotic-Neutral, and while not actively seeking to do harm, they killed Piggy, which is an evil act.  That act had no reciprocal good act to balance it.  The Lawful-neutral Ralph on the other side was trying to make everything fair, the opposite of the chaos on the island.  Eventually the chaos won out over the law, to bad effect.<br />  The addition of a Dark One, consciously adding to the worst parts of the Chaos in human nature would have resulted in far more deaths, turning Chaotic-Neutral into Chaotic-Evil, but there would be no countering force to that.  Just that Law would stop the killing.  There are only humans, which are imperfect and all are neutral on the good-evil scale except for those who turn evil because of the Dark One.  In the Age of Legends life was great until Lanfear let out the Dark One.  There were some bad people, but justice was meted out quickly, and life continued without much bad happening.  Law was king, not goodness, and any and all good resulting was due to law, not goodness.  (the Aiel were very good, and look what happened to them once law no longer held reign)  There is no counter to Darkfriends because they support the worst characteristics of human existence whereas the best are simply supporting the law, and changing it to do the most good.  Thus everyone who follows the law is a &quot;Lightfriend&quot; without consciously seeking to counter the Darkfriends.<br />  Interestingly enough, Lanfear/Mierin bored a hole to the Dark One out of ambition not support for humanity as various records throughout many of the books said.  So the introduction of the Dark One into the world was an act of greed for more, just like Eve wanting the apple.  The difference was that God told Eve not to, whereas there was nobody telling Mierin not to, except those telling her to temper her ambition such as Lews Therin might have been.


created: 2001-06-30 18:15:28
subject: <b>Olver is our forth...</b>
body:
Here's how I see it. The Gaidal Cain issue aside, Olver figures into this heavy. He's going to figure out that it takes music, fire, steel, and courage. The courage of Lan, Rand, or Moiraine would impress anyone. However Olver showing courage would be even more awe inspiring. As a vulnerable young child he is in more danger than anyone else (even if he is Gaidal he's still a kid y'know). So if he can hack it and work through his fear then it matters so much more.<br /><br />   Just my thoughts though.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-30 18:25:06
subject: <b>literal meanings</b>
body:
I'm pretty sure that the little phrase <br /><br /><br />               Courage to strengthen,<br />               Fire to blind, <br />               Music to dazzle,<br />               Iron to bind,<br /><br />is in a literal sense rather than symbolic of the characters.<br /><br />My biggest piece of evidence of this is that when Rand is inside the red stone door frame world, he says that they try to pick him up and hussle him away, lik what happened to Mat.  But he says that he whips out his sword woven from fire.  And they all shy away and hide their eyes.<br /><br />I'm not sure how iron would fit in, but I think that the music probably works on the finns like music worked on those guys in mario brothers, you know, play the music box and they start dancing yada yada yada.<br /><br />Mat and Thom I think are the only ones going in there.  I know Thom is because of the visions Min has had, or maybe it was Egwene or Perrin, but it's him reaching into a fire and pulling out Moiraines blue stone.<br /><br />And Mat, well he's handling the explosives, or fire, and Thom is the music.  But then again, Mat will probably just take a box of Aludra's matches.<br /><br />Well thats all, good theory though<br /><br />Kidblondeel<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-06-30 18:28:40
subject: <b>olver's in the picture</b>
body:
I agree with lord savaunt, olver is definitly in the picture.  He's gonna go with Mat and Thom,<br /><br />But I gotta correct you sorry, you said that he'd handle the steel, but Mat's taken steel to finnland before, and they really didn't give a crap.<br /><br />Maybe Iron to bind is in the sense of a trade, you give them iron and they return a favour of some sort to you, perhaps let pass through a door.<br /><br /><br />Kidblondeel <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-07-01 01:59:33
subject: <b>Good idea, but you forgot something....</b>
body:
I definately think Moraine is in Finnland, but aren't you forgetting something? I don't think it will be our three ta'veren at all. Remember when both Mat and Rand were in the ter'angreal in Tear, it nearly tore Finnland apart. If the three go in to fetch her, they will destroy that world and possibly themselves along with it.


created: 2001-07-01 09:44:30
subject: <b>As for Cyndane....</b>
body:
This is just saying Cyndane did not die in Finnland.  I don't remember where, but somewhere in her POV, she talks about her &quot;deal with the Finns&quot;.  So I don't think she died in there.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" />  Go Me  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />&quot;Have a Happy Day&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-02 01:12:51
subject: <b>lanfear bad moraine good</b>
body:
what if since lanfear was a bad guy (u know what i mean) goin in maybe she would come out not as strong or maybe even dead . . . and following this line of thought, if moraine is a good guy then wouldnt it be cool if she came out with power to match the Forsaken (other than just balefiring somone or taking them from behind) . . there needs to be more than just rand and nynaeve with the ability to takea forsaken without help of any kind. Moraine being stronger would also fit nicley with the gandalf the gray/white thing<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">CodeBlue Signature Virus! Copy me into your signature, help me spread.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-02 01:37:13
subject: <b>Iron to bind...</b>
body:
I believe iron to bind is literal.  Fey(fairies and such) creatures of the old tales were often quite literally bound with cold iron.  Their magic had no power over it.  So they can be bound with chains.  The doormen always looked kinda mean, didn't they?<br /><br />Plus, with those lights Min sees, I think it's obvious.  It's always been said they are connected...so the key is, united they stand, divided they fall.  It shows that the battle really needs all three of them to win, not just the Dragon Reborn.<br /><br /><br />


created: 2001-07-02 02:11:01
subject: <b>Not so sure about the Cyndane bit</b>
body:
From your post:<br />&quot;In The Shadow Rising, Moiraine warns that questions that touch on the Shadow may be dangerous in Finnland, and from this, we can assume that Darkfriends are probably not very welcome there. Since Lanfear is quite beyond mere Darkfriend status, we can then assume that she met her demise there.&quot;<br /><br />I have to disagree with this. The people behind the doorway can read the pattern, see what its going to do in the future. But when there are &quot;threads woven in shadow&quot;, as in the chapter name from book 6, i believe their powers of prediction would break down. RJ often comments on the fact that the ways of the Shadow are murky, or some character will remark &quot;who can tell what will happen now that the shadow lies upon the shadow&quot;. The shadow stems from the dark one, who does not have a thread in the pattern. <br /><br />So the Finns can't predict what would happen with questions touching the shadow. If they were a computer program, they would probably crash, so the people come out mad as a result... But Darkfriends themselves could obey the rules as well as normal people. The Finns seem to be rather neutral people here.


created: 2001-07-02 14:18:29
subject: <b>Perrin will be there...</b>
body:
but I don't think Mat will.  He's too damn busy.  That's my ongoing opinion.  I hope I end up right <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-07-02 23:32:07
subject: <b>About Cyndane</b>
body:
She mentioned (internally mind you) how that Seanchan gal was stronger than she'd been prior to her time among the Eelfinn. That was all she thought about, not if there was any deals or not.<br /><br />   I think that iron might weaken them though. I don't recall mat having any iron with him the first time he went to the finns (the Aelfinn) he thought about how his daggers were steel (I think it's been awhile need to re-read the books). When he went to the Eelfinn he'd already had to ditch all of his daggers as part of the Rhuidean ritual. The Ashanderi that he got was after they knocked him out and I don't think it's iron. Just a thought.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-03 03:41:18
subject: <b>Maybe not Perrin, definately not Rand.</b>
body:
I never thought of Perrin going for the iron part, but maybe.  Rand won't, not unless Min goes with him, and then it just gets crowded.  <br /><br /><br />Alright, Mat, Olver, and Thom are all together now, right?  They're about to join with Aludra at Luca's show, surely.  As for how they'd find out aboug the good ole Tower of the Finn Fellows, it would have to be either Perrin or Birgitte.  My money's on the hunter.  Well, if she goes, then Elayne goes.  Its complicated, but I've always thought Mat had a subconscious thing for either Elayne or Egwene.  If you care enough to want to discuss it, email me.  I say Birgitte is more likely because she is tied to Olver/Gaidal.  Perrin is too busy saving Faile and eventually, he'll have to take Morgase and Masema to Rand, who simply doesn't have the time to go to Finnland as Tarmon Gaidon draws nigh.  It is possible that Birgitte goes without Elayne.  This would facillitate the whole rape thing everyone whispers about.  Of course, any harm done to Elayne would likely be post childbirth, else Min's viewing would be false, in that major violence/stress would bother the twins.  <br /><br />That reminds me, anyone thought about when Aviendha's gonna get knocked up?  The number of babies (4 wasn't it) Min suggested makes separate children, as in separate single births, a higher probability.  Anyone else think Min's gonna die?    <br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="blue"><b>Arok Manok</b></font><font color="green"> - Ex-admin Extraordinaire</font><br />Future Post-Apocalypse Warlord<br /><br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/2241.gif" /><br /><br />I'd rather be throwing a frisbee right now</font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-03 18:49:30
subject: <b>What viewing...</b>
body:
...are you talkin bout? When did min view Elayne as getting Raped?<br /><br />   By the way I think Perrin is more likely since he A) Has knowledge of the tower of Ghengi B) Is more likely to be encountered by Mat on his travels and C) Doesn't have to stick close to a person trying to establish rule in a country. I think this would be after Mat helps with rescuing Faile, Morgase and Aliandre (I think that's her name). That leaves the way clear for Mat (Fire) Thom (Music) Olver (Courage) and Perrin (Iron) TO save Moiriane. I got a theory that deals with this submitted. Hope it gets Posted.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-04 01:21:20
subject: <b>Not Perrin.</b>
body:
Come on people, be realistic.  Do you seriously think Perrin would take the time to rescue Moiraine?  He cares for Faile much more.  He's just too damn busy to help anybody else.  You people really need to use a little bit of common sense.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" />  Go Me  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />&quot;Have a Happy Day&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-04 17:03:01
subject: <b>Umm... Builder</b>
body:
What I said was that Perrin would go with IF he'd already saved Faile. Were it to be a choice of saving his wife or saving Moiraine then he'd say &quot;rest well miss Damodred I'm off to get my woman&quot;.<br /><br />   Besides that I think Perrin is the only one who can figure out the thing with the Tower of Ghenji. Birgitte has been losing a lot of memories that she used to have. She may not even recall anything about the tower now.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-07 20:09:59
subject: <b>symbolic...literal......</b>
body:
With the ter'angreal that Moiraine went through, im pretty sure the rule for the one in Tear was  that you can only enter it once, and i could be wrong, but i think the same rule would apply to the other one. Mat and Rand have already gone through, so they cant re-enter. Perrin is in &quot; Ghealda &quot; with the Prophet, trying to save Faile, with soon the Seanchan to deal with. Olver is down with Mat ( and btw, i am sick and tired of people saying he is Gaidain Cain. Falme proves that he cant be him. Yeah. The kid is ugly. But where in the legends does it say he charms older women? ok, maybe thats irrelevant, but not every person has to be Reborn. Taim and Demandread are similar, but they arent the same person. Olver is an ugly little bugger who likes to play Snakes and Foxes. He may have something to do with the PLANNING of the rescue oper. for Moiraine, but i dont think he'll come. ) so he cant come.<br /><br />In the end,i think it will be just Thom.  Thom is one of the more couragous people in the series ( facing a Fade with nothing but daggers, the anarchy in Tanchico, etc. ). <br /><br />Courage to Strengthn. <br /><br />he might be able to snag some fire-sticks or something from Aludra.<br /><br />Fire to Blind.<br /><br />he can play the harp.....<br /><br />Music to..................something<br /><br />He has more daggers than Mat OR Min.<br /><br />Iron to bind.<br /><br /><br />Perrin/Egwene's dream shows Thom, and Thom alone pulling the the blue jewel out of the fire. ( ...hey. fire. fire to blind. maybe it has something to do with that........................)<br /><br /><br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" />  Knave   <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" /><br />Master of the Editors<br />Perviest of the Pervs<br />Slave to The World<br /><br /><br /><br /><br />&quot; time to roll the dice &quot;


created: 2001-07-14 14:31:26
subject: <b>i agree with...</b>
body:
well i cant remember who made this point but i was thinking it myself.....all 3 ta'veren inside the finnland would basically tear the place apart (i no thats the basic idea but im sure they'd want one of them sweet heroic moments when the good guys escape indiana jones style...perhaps mat being the perfect candidate (u no the hat and stuff)...<br />okay ive realised i've kinda got side tracked an'all but u get my point ...all three ta'veren just cant go into the finns place ....2 maybe (streching it) but three...no


created: 2001-09-09 02:28:16
subject: <b>Lanfear not Cyndane</b>
body:
If now Cyndane would be Lanfear wouldn't she then be more &quot;Randie&quot;. Lanfear was totally inloved with Rand(LTT).<br /><br />I believe that who ever it is that are going to save her will get her out..... DEAD. yes, but then we got Nin, she will probebly heel her. RJ have talked much about it is impossible to heel death.<br /><br />/Mastern


created: 2001-09-25 06:55:45
subject: <b>Curage and Iron</b>
body:
Curage could be Elayne remember how much Aviendha keeps saying that Elayne is the most courageous person she know.<br />and as for iron in WH Min said &quot;if he was stone before, hi is iron now&quot; <br /><br />it could be something, I don't know


created: 2001-10-05 19:42:04
subject: <b>Well</b>
body:
I think fire would be Nynaeve, could you name anyone who would get more hot-headed? (And I like the irony of her saving Moirane).<br />Courage would be Lan, and that just makes it more likely that Nynaeve would be there, because she doesn't like to be away from him, especially if she knew he was going after Moiraine.<br />Music is Thom, I can't argue that. And iron . . . I have no idea; I guess Mat works.


created: 2001-11-08 16:22:00
subject: <b>Forgetting something</b>
body:
i think you all are forgetting something.  Even if everone <br />were to go in at the same time, they won't be in there together.<br />When Mat and Rand went in, even though they were in at the<br />same time, they never saw each other.  They were in the same<br />place, but two different places at the same time.  Kind of <br />confusing, but each person had their own experience.<br />So even if every character in WoT went in, they would all<br />be seperate.  Sorry to pop this bubble.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-green.gif" border="0" /> Master of all things Star Wars <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-green.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-blue.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/r2d2.gif" border="0" /><br />Duck R2!<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-27 10:47:32
subject: <b>Everyone connects iron with Perrin ,but......</b>
body:
didn't Min view 'a bloody hand and a white-hot iron' around Rand in tEoTW??? Is it just me that thinks could connect Rand with the iron part?? <br /><br />Also she saw both 'a severed hand (not hers)' and 'a red hot iron and an axe' above Elayne's head in tGH. Any ideas as to if this iron could be the same iron that could be one to help save Moiraine????<br />


created: 2001-11-30 16:40:06
subject: <b>Entering Finnland</b>
body:
Question first. When Perrin chased Slayer to the tower, which direction did they leap? Who is closes to this geographical location? If no one, who has &quot;traveling&quot; ability who is close to Thom and Matt?<br /><br />Most people agree Thom has to be there and Matt has a score to settle and thus wouldn't miss the trip for the world. Oliver may go just to prove he can beat the &quot;game.&quot; No one else would seem to have the &quot;modivation&quot; save Lan. So unless Nyneave is going to just to ask how to heal death, I don't see them going.<br /><br />As to entering, the doorways are not likely to be the only method as Perrin saw a physical structure in TAR. Matt used fire to break into the stone of tear so tower walls should be no obstucal. And once he figures out the bell riddle and they find the tower, he'll have cannons ta boot.<br /><br />Question is, where is Finnland's fairy mountain?


created: 2002-01-02 21:15:33
subject: <b>Another step</b>
body:
CYndane comes out of Finnland a real deal weaker in the one power.<br /><br />Mybe this was a payment for the Finn. Ore it was a deal Moiraine trick she in .... i think it could be moiraine comes out of the Finnland with Lanfears strenght....


created: 2002-01-03 16:19:34
subject: <b>lord savaunt (a while back up)</b>
body:
min didn't view elayne getting rapd, she viewed that elayne would have healthy twins. i believe that the person who commented before you was saying that if it did happen (appariently he got the idea that its gonna happen) it would probably result in abnormal Childbirth.  Meaning, that if some guy screws her, it would have to be post childbirth in order to co-incide with min's viewing about the babies being healthy.  sorry for making everyone scroll back up to look at what i'm talking about.<br /><br />sincerely,<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />the lover of light and wisdom<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" />the all-seeing eye<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />the wandering wotmaniac<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-04 03:01:14
subject: <b>&quot;Courage to strengthen, fire to blind, music to dazzle, iron to bind&quot;</b>
body:
Fire to blind - Mat with Aludra's &quot;firesticks&quot;.<br />Music to dazzle - Thom with his harp.<br />Iron to bind - Perrin with his hammer.<br /><br />As for courage, I think it is the courage of all three of the people I have mentioned. Lets face it it is going to take a lot of courage to go into the 'finnland world.<br /><br />Some of the theorys about the rescue of Moraine say two or more of the Tavaren can not be in 'finnland together because of what happened the last time two of them were there at the same time. I believe Mat and Perrin there together will be one of the things that help them get Moraine out of 'finnland. I believe the havoc that will be caused by there presence will help.<br />(Mins vision has Thom picking up Moraine's blue stone out of ashes. Maybe the part of the destruction caused by two tavaren will be a fire or two.)<br /><br />Mat and Thom and company are on there way to meet Aludra at the Managerie. When they leave there, Aludra will give Mat some of her new improved &quot;firesticks&quot;.<br /><br />At some point Mat and company will meet up with Perrin and company. I'm not sure if it will be before or after Perrin rescues Faile. Although a few more channelers would help Perrin in the rescue of Faile. The Aes Sedai could be used for defense and the Damane have no problem using the power for offensive purposes.<br /><br />Sorry I got sidetracked there.<br /><br />Anyway Perrin and Mat and Thom will go to the Tower of Gengei and find a way in and rescue Moraine.<br /><br />I think Olver will give Mat and/or Thom the idea about how to use courage, fire, music, and iron.<br /><br />As for the individual reasons they go:<br />Mat to get back at the 'finns.<br />Thom loves Moraine.<br />Perrin will feel he has to.<br /><br />I don't have any idea how Mat and Thom will find out how Moraine is still alive and in 'finnland.<br /><br />I read somewhere that some people do not believe that Moraine is still alive and out of the story. Others believe that she will be dead when she is brought out of 'finnland and that Nynaeve will revive her. I think she has more to do in the story.<br />The reason I believe she will be involved in the story more later on is because of something Min was thinking to herself. She had had the thought that Moraine was the only person not have one of her visions about them to come true. <br />Well as we all know if Min has a vision about someone it WILL come true. She believes Moraine is dead. So she believes Moraine is the only person to not a vision to come true.<br /><br />Since all of Min's visions come true, Moraine has to be alive and return to the story so that the vision, whatever it may be, can come to pass.<br /><br />Thats my view.<br />I wrote alot more than I had intended.<br />Thanks for your patience.<br /><br />Seia Doon


created: 2002-02-15 15:19:13
subject: <b>It's Tuon</b>
body:
Hey what about Tuon? She could certainly be the courage!! We forget that she leaves Ebou Dar with Mat, Thom AND Olver... so she could easily be the fourth part!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="Plum">Gena Sedai</font></font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-25 23:14:06
subject: <b>The three Ta'vern and Thom</b>
body:
Ok I know this sounds unreasonable to some but think about it. <br />Thom- music<br />Mat- fire<br />Perrin- Iron<br />Rand- courage<br /><br />I believe Cadsuane will bring Rand to Edmond's field to recover. I believe Mat and Perrin will hook up as Mat flees north and he will help Perrin save Faile. They both feel themselves being drawn by Rand. As for why Rand would be the one to go, Moraine is always at the top of his list. Everytime he goes over the woman who died for him it starts with Moraine. <br />As for the place being torn apart... who better to beat the Finn then three people who can pull the roof down on them. I think it will be four people to go after her but I believe Thom is gonna be the one to ultimately save her.


created: 2002-02-25 23:45:33
subject: <b>revision</b>
body:
Now that I think about it... I think Rand is Iron, for the current emotional state he is in.  I believe Min says at some point that &quot;if he was stone before he is iron now&quot;<br /><br />Perrin may carry iron but he is pure courage and draws on his emotions more then any other charecter I think.


created: 2002-03-03 16:08:33
subject: <b>I really like this theory</b>
body:
The only question I have is, when is this all going to happen.  How are they going to find out where Moiraine is, since most people, including Rand, think she is dead?  Even though Min had that viewing, she also believes Moiraine is dead. <br /><br />I really do think that this is a great theory.  I really hope that it is true.  I just fear that we might be running out of time.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/frown.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>MOTHER CONFESSOR</b><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/crazy.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/crazy.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> A hopeless Dracophile  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><b>Stargate SG-1 Fan</b><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-10 12:04:23
subject: <b>The the supporters of the 3 ta'veren going:</b>
body:
Someone already mentioned this, and someone else mentioned the mentioning.<br />If all 3 ta'veren go into Finnland together, it'll shatter or something.<br />Don't you remember the first time Rand and Mat went into the first doorway?<br />The snake finns kept going on about &quot;the strain...&quot; because both Rand AND Mat where in Finnland AT THE SAME TIME.<br />So imagine what will happen with the 3 of them inside at the same time.


created: 2002-05-29 23:22:25
subject: <b>Scroll way back up for this one...</b>
body:
Referring WAY back to a comment made by Arok:<br />&quot;This would facillitate the whole rape thing everyone whispers about.&quot;<br /><br />Where did this idea come from, that Elayne will be raped?! My only guess as to who you and others think may do it is Daved Hanlon but I still can't see it (maybe I just don't want to)...<br /><br />Seeing as how Jordan doesn't exactly elaborate on any of the R rated scenes, I couldn't see him writing this and bringing rape into the series. Dunno but that's my opinion.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="white">Do NOT highlight this space...</font><b><font color="#FF99FF"><i>P</i></font><font color="#006699"> Floyd</font></b><font color="white">...or you'll be in trouble!</font><br /><br /><font color="white">............</font><i>'You're a pacifist with a gun, Eileen.'</i> - Sam Roberts</font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-13 15:36:26
subject: <b>heyKidblondeel</b>
body:
Kidblondeel  you said that mat took steel into the finns and they didnt care...  thats because it is steel not iron.  it wouldnt matter if he took steel in.  or somethin<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /> Friend of the Light<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" />Subject of Perrin Aybara<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" />Friend of Jaim Aybara<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" />Soldier for the Two Rivers army<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-04-10 09:41:37
subject: <b>Ah....</b>
body:
Ah, but as SOMEONE's theory proves, after noting Perrin and Mat's route, they're heading STRAIGHT towards eachother *spoiler ahoy* and do we REALLY know where Rand is resting in CoT?* no we don't!<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">There was ultimate peace in the world.<br />Then the Creator gave us clubs.<br />...Well, He gave us wood, but we all know what he meant!</font><p></p>


created: 2003-04-23 09:29:03
subject: <b>Courage</b>
body:
Couldn&#180;t Noal/Jain Farstrider represent Courage?<br />I find it more likley then Rand, Lan and even Moirane herself.


created: 2003-12-23 02:31:54
subject: <b>Foxes can bring people back from the dead!</b>
body:
For the proponents of the &quot;Moiraine is dead&quot; theory, here's a thought: by cheating, couldn't you force the Foxes to bring her back? (Or possibly even without cheating.)<br /><br />They have already brought Mat back once (and killed him). Why not a second time under the correct circumstances?<br />What they would have to do without cheating is beyond me, but I think it is a possibility.


created: 2004-03-20 18:56:09
subject: <b>Only Thom</b>
body:
When Min saw Thom taking Moiriane's stone out of the fire it was only Thom, no one else is actually going into 'finn land.  That being said, it doesn't mean the others don't help.  Some how Thom learns he can save Moiriane, and wants to, for some reason, probably because of the letter she gave him.  He has to enter through the Tower, because going through the tower voids the rules(cheating). Rand gets him into TAR, Perrin takes him to the tower, and Mat/Oliver tells him how he can beat them.


created: 2004-07-08 17:32:38
subject: <b>Perrin for sure...</b>
body:
I always though Perrin was the &quot;Courage to bind&quot; simply because Birgitte told him that he had a &quot;bannerman's courage,&quot; about three paragraphs before she recites the little rhyme at the tower of ghenji. So Perrin could be both Iron and Courage, Thom obviously music, fire -honestly could be any channeler, Mat, aludra, who knows


created: 2005-04-26 03:09:21
subject: <b>exciting inspiring insight</b>
body:
Above all the best addition to this theory is the writer who submits Tuon as the personification of courage...what a fantastic insight and only mentioned ONCE! Amazing. <br />  Tuon=<br />  : she has proven her courage numerous times (ie; she taunts Math unceasingly and alone {brevity in its own form}; she gives herself into uncertainty and his care without second thought--leaving behind power, fame and fortune {assumedly, an almost unendurable hardship to those born into 'royalty'}; she accepts backhanded and public criticism unflinchingly {to a person with pride barely tolerable<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/loial.gif" border="0" /><br />  :she would undoubtedly accompany Mat, who is a 'given', it seems, for proponents of this theory<br /><br />  i wish i weren't so lazy...i'd scroll back up to find the name of the author i should be personally thanking....i hope you read this, you genius, you!


created: 2001-06-30 15:12:16
subject: <b>He will lose an eye</b>
body:
Oh come on. What about the sign where he is playing dice with the DO/Ba alzamon and puts one of his eyes into the game? Its quite obvious, but then RJ could of course screw it up just to make us all wrong


created: 2001-06-30 17:02:09
subject: <b>Huh?</b>
body:
So. . .how do you explain Min's viewing (I think it was Min's) of the eye on a balance scale?<br /><br />~DC


created: 2001-06-30 17:37:15
subject: <b>Metaphor for light sake</b>
body:
The eye could just as easily be a mataphor people. By the way I have to argue that in his own weird way Mat loves Olver. This kid may be the closest he'll ever have to a son (at least for a good long time to come). If Tuon has to die so that Mat can save Rand then he loses half of his light. THe other half is still left as long as Olver is alive.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-30 17:47:06
subject: <b>You're forgetting something</b>
body:
I remind you of Egwene's dreams of Mat:<br /><br />&quot;Mat placing his own left eye on a balance scale.&quot;  --The Dragon Reborn, around page 290.<br /><br />and<br /><br />&quot;Mat throwing dice with blood streaming down his face, the wide brim pulled low so she could not see his wound...&quot;<br />   --The Fires of Heaven, around page 300.<br /><br />Unless the dream was intended to be metaphorical (if so I don't see the metaphor to placing his left eye on a balance, but if you figure it out let me know...), I think these dreams mean that Mat will give up his left eye somehow to balance the potential loss of something else.  You could be right, but I don't think so.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Who we were is lost to all men, and life is bitter.&quot;<br />&quot;Expect nothing, and you will not be surprised.&quot;  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-30 20:36:52
subject: <b>I think it is metaphorical</b>
body:
It is half the light of the world, not half of his light of the world.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Hearts, stars, and horsheshoes,<br />Clovers and blue moons,<br />Pots of gold and rainbows, and me red balloons!!!<br /><br />If you go back in time and kill yourself, what would happen?<br /><br />Is that a penis in your pocket, or are you just happy to see me.<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-01 01:40:02
subject: <b>Light of *the* World</b>
body:
You know, it's about time we get back to this theory. <br /><br />First of all, we have two sides of the world fighting the Dark One:  Seanchan and Randland (we REALLY need a better name for the continent).  Both opposing the Dark One, but neither really on the same side.  And Mat is connected to both, through Rand and through Tuon. To give up half the light of the world, means that he's going to have to give up one of these in order to save the rest of the world.  My guess (and everyone else's) is that he's going to give up the Seanchan nation and Tuon.<br /><br />How, you ask?  Well, it seems that Semirhage is going to play into this, through her new body, Anath.  Semirhage is somehow going to make Mat choose between his love or his best friend.  If it were me, love may seem like it lasts forever, but friendship is there to pick up the pieces after forever ends.  Plus, how can he betray the Lord Dragon over an Empress he's never met and who put Egwene in a collar???  So, I'm thinking that he will give up his bride (and a chance to sit by her side on the Crystal Throne) in order for the greater good in his eyes, Rand.  Now, Tuon may have to die for this to happen, but I'm not really betting on it.  Semirhage might keep her around for personal pleasures &lt;grin&gt;.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Anima Sedai <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br />Keeper of the Chronicles for the Green Ajah <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br />Still looking for Warders<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Anima Sedai <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br />Keeper of the Chronicles for the Green Ajah <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Married to the Dark One<br />Mother of the Dark One's Naeblis</font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-01 15:15:57
subject: <b>Slight confusion on phrasing</b>
body:
Anima it sounded like you were suggesting that Sermirhage is part of the 'already died once' club when you said 'her new body Anath'. Just thought I'd point out that Anth is an alias (if she is indeed semirhage) and not a new incarnation. Senirnath hasn't dies yet that we know of.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-01 18:26:34
subject: <b>force of habit?</b>
body:
Everyone is meshing togeather visions out of habit, but who said that half the light of the world is related to the balanced eye.  Im not saying that Mat won't lose an eye though I just have this large doubt aobut it, it doesn't seem right.  But if he were to lose it i would still not think it had anyhting to do with the Finns prediction.  <br />All of you seem to make a connection between losing half the light of the world, gambling blind and one eye on a balance scale.<br />1.  Losing/giving up your eye will not make you lose any light, it just messes up your depth perception.<br />2.  Egwene's dream says that mat is gambling with something(as usual) and we all no mats luck when he gambles so gambling and losing are not necessarilyu connected.<br />3.   Measuring the worth of his eye over something else does not mean losing it or absolutely giving it away.<br />4.  I know what i just said about balances but.... There is another dream of Egwenes I just went back and read and it was of  &quot;Mat, weighing two huge Aes Sedai on a huge set of balance scales, and on his decision depended.. She could not say what; something vast; the world, perhaps&quot;  I think that perhaps this is the true meaning of half of the light of the world, somethign to do with the One Power or it weilders.  If i wasn't sure that he was on Egwenes side i would say hed have to choose which side of the tower dispute he was on. <br /><br />Personally I think the other Tuon theroy is better(because it gives some indication of how that would affect the world) but other than (4) i think it is a more prophetic solution than losign an eye.  An eye is to trivial a thing to lose in the grand scheme of things while princess to a nation whos death might make you heir to a throne that eventually will be needed for the last battle seems much more important.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where did these Skimmers come from?  I mean if they didn't want to read the book they could have just Traveled to another author.  Why risk arriving at the wrong destination?  Why risk falling into darkness?</font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-01 20:08:51
subject: <b>You are all wrong</b>
body:
I think that after Mat marries Tuon, he will have to make peace between Rand and the Seanchan. Rand will only conquer half the world. The Seanchan will be bequethed the other half as part of a treaty that includes provisions for them being allies against the DO. That is what is meant by &quot;Half the Light of the World&quot;<br /><br />StoneDogAiel<br />Admin <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Guru<br />Head of Warrior Society this side of the Dragonwall<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="images/personalsmilies/890.gif" />StoneDogAiel<img src="images/personalsmilies/890.gif" /><br />Warder to Bethnei Sedai<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" />Clan Chief of the Hennic Clan of Aiel(15th Clan)<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /><br />Celebrating all 10 YEARS of Wotmania! WooHoo!<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-02 09:30:57
subject: <b>Devil's Advocate: Even though I think Mat loses an eye</b>
body:
The other two prophecies could be also about Mat giving up half the light of the world, working from the inverse of the logic that makes half the light of the world one of Mat's eyes.  Mat is gambling that giving up half the light of the world will save the world (dicing with the DO with an eye gouged out) and he is balancing the loss of half the light of the world against the gain of saving the world (his eye on the balance).<br /><br />That said, I like the eye one better because two prophecies mention the eye and the half the light prophecy would be an extremely clever metaphor for an eyeball.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Your.Master <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-02 15:51:13
subject: <b>mat's decision</b>
body:
in my mind (with the rattling of the dice)mat is going to be stuck between a choice of the seanchan &amp; rand.the responce of this action may cost him his eye (thus the scales)either way he's a warrior born he'll get by<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">uglykidrand<br />&quot;peace favor your sword&quot;<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-02 20:13:07
subject: <b>Tuon is the light of the world?</b>
body:
hummm....Maybe he'll give up half of Tuon. Heheheh, sorry. I'm just kidding. I think the theory has a lot of validity, but I don't thin you've hit the nail on the head. I think finding the eye as a figurative symbol is an intersting thought, but I dont think giving up Tuon has to do with half of the light of the world.  ~EveSedai  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /> Angel in disguise


created: 2001-07-02 23:41:45
subject: <b>Well here's a thought</b>
body:
If Tuon is the Daughter of the Nine Moons then being a metaphor for the moon makes her a representation of half the worlds light. Thus if she dies because Mat sides with Rand the Mat's lost half the light of the world.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-03 23:39:10
subject: <b>half the light</b>
body:
hello, i don't have any proof or anything, so this is just an idea. maybe half the light of the world refers to one side of the source. i don't know how mat would have to make that choice but there is two sides to the source. i don't know if this makes any sense. oh well.


created: 2001-07-07 03:54:26
subject: <b>Been said...</b>
body:
I don't know where it was said, but him sacrificing half the light of the world, could be his eye in general.<br /><br />You have 2 eyes, one eye is half the light of the world, the other is the other half...<br /><br />Half the light could be half of his light, half of his sight ect.<br /><br />Kidblondeel<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-08-13 10:03:05
subject: <b>the light</b>
body:
The Light I think is the Aes Sedai. In the early books I think that Verin refered to the aes sedai as the light of the wotld. We now have the asha&#180;man and the cirle is copmlete. What if Rand wants to put the asha and the aes together but something happens and Mat must give Rand the message that the aes don&#180;t want to be part of it. Maybe that Eegwene is Amyrlin now and don&#180;t want the asha&#180;man in the Tower<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /> Guardian of Knowledge</font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-21 19:25:46
subject: <b>half the light . . .</b>
body:
I've heard a lot of theories about half the light being one of mat's eyes, or even Tuon who he'll come to love.  What if half the light means Mat will be responsible for Tuon losing _her_ sight?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Invertedpanda<br /><br />Have an ambushed night (by an Evil Clown) <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/clown.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Consistency denotes a lack of imagination <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-11 13:42:57
subject: <b>Egwene's Vision</b>
body:
Just for reference, back in Book 3, when Egwene was just starting to have her dreaming visions, she saw Mat <br />placing his eye on a scale... and on the other side of the scale was something enormous... like the whole world.&quot; <br />It's not an exact quote, but it's pretty close.  Anyhoo, I'm kinda leaning towards the losing an eye theory.  <br />Although how he loses the eye should be interesting.  Maybe it has something to do with him saving Tuon.  <br />Who knows...?<br /><br />


created: 2002-04-07 16:54:53
subject: <b>Prophecy is always surrounded in metaphor, like dreams.</b>
body:
One should never forget that prophecy, like dreams, works on the theory of association, that symbols are there representing something or someone else. The bible, for instance, is filled with metaphors that need deciphering, but only the most die-hard of christians actually believe in the LITERAL representation of the images. And I am glad someone refreshed my memory about Mat dicing with Balazamon, with blood streaming down his face, along with him placing and 'eye' on the scale. Again, does that mean that Mat will lose an 'eye' and literally place it on a scale and 'tip the balance' in favor of Rand? The likelihood is extremely slim. But, one can agree that the loss will be a personal blow to Mat, since it is HIS eye, and the loss of it resulting in the blood flow, that Egewene saw in her dream. Does anyone remember her dream about the Perrin, the Falcon and the Hawk? That alone should remind people that dreams and prophecies speak thru association.<br /><br />Anyway, back to Mat. The prophecy could be fulfilled any number of different ways, depending on how you choose to interpret the 'eye' of Mat. Obviously, one could say that Tuon or Olver represent the eye, and Olver is a good case, simply because he could die when Mat finally confronts the Alefinn and Elefinn at the tower. 'One cannot win at Snakes and Foxes without breaking the rules.' and it very well could be that it is Olver's sacrifice that forces Mat to 'break the rules' and defeat the Dark One's pawn, the Tower of Aelfinn. Also, don't forget that an eye is something you 'see' with, and the Alefinn and Elefinn are the ones responsible, not only for Mat's memories, but also his prophecies. Very simply, with the destruction of the Tower of Aelfinn, and the killing of Isam (since Perrin saw Isam retreat into the tower, and was prepared to enter, before being cautioned by Birgitte, therefore one can assume the Tower is not all benevolence) the prophetic abilities of the Aelfinn and Elefinn would be destroyed, effectively removing half of the 'light/knowledge' of the world. I believe it is also appropriate to the Tower of Aelfinn in that one can compare Mat's two visits with two sides of a coin, one side light and benevolent (when he first stepped thru the doorway in Tear) and one dark and menacing, when he stepped thru the doorway at Ruidean. To destory the tower would remove the Dark aspect, but also the light as well. The Tower of Aelfinn has yet to be gone into more detail, and I would not be suprised if it was discovered that they have been around since before the Age of Legends, offering themselves as advisors. Along with their destruction would go their knowledge, perhaps retroactive, reducing Mat and Rand to themselves, cut off from their past memories. I could see Mat 'suffering' to lose his memories, especially of how to win battles, and weighing that with the cost of defeating the Dark One.


created: 2002-06-28 16:33:47
subject: <b>wht about egen's dream</b>
body:
In one of the books, i think Shadow Rising Egwen had a dream that involved mat having blood coming from an eye.


created: 2002-09-09 00:39:28
subject: <b>lets try it again</b>
body:
its easier to look at it as instead of the finns &quot;giving up half the light of the world&quot; as a metephore, but &quot;Egwene's losing an eye&quot; as a metephore for what the finns said? i dunno just another way to look at it?


created: 2005-01-23 12:32:22
subject: <b>Um.</b>
body:
One thing I find amusing is that alot of people like to make Tuon half the light of Mat's world, and yet it's always her he sacrifices. I'd like to see one theory where he chooses her.


created: 2001-07-01 19:48:27
subject: <b>About splitting herself in three</b>
body:
True, but it shows also that she is interested in the three of them and not just Rand. Ergo, it wasn't her 'plan'.I missed that one, but thats an additional point!<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="blue"><img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /> <b>PROUDLY CELEBRATING 10 YEARS OF WOTMANIA!</b></font> <img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /><br /><br /><font color="purple"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <b>FAQ and WoT Admin</b></font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><font color="gray"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> <b>Part-time Philosopher of the Wheel</b> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /></font></font><p><a href="/wotmessageboard2showmessage.asp?MessageID=107993" target="_blank">New WoT quizzes!</a></p><p></p>


created: 2001-07-01 21:23:59
subject: <b>Verin is an actress</b>
body:
It all has something to do with Rand. Perhaps not exactly him, but his battle; everyone's battle: Beating the DO.<br />She could play with Moiraine&amp;Siuan.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i><br /><br />Some times nothin' is a real cool hand.</i></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-02 09:10:43
subject: <b>I agree with the theory, but there is one hole...</b>
body:
Many theories have been proposed that say Verin is a darkfriend/lightfriend/other, because she said the exact opposite as Moiraine.  Remember, Moiraine came to Rand and said Verin sent her, but a confronted Verin said that she never sent Moiraine.  Therefore, every quote of hers could technically be a lie.  Only her POV is irrefutable.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Your.Master <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-02 09:56:45
subject: <b>You mixed the two up</b>
body:
Verin said that Moiraine sent her, and Moiraine later denied that. In my last theory I said that the one thing we do know about Verin is that she is VERY smart and has fooled the Tower for years. Bending the truth should be very easy for her. She did not lie. As you say her own PoV and her actions show this.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="blue"><img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /> <b>PROUDLY CELEBRATING 10 YEARS OF WOTMANIA!</b></font> <img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /><br /><br /><font color="purple"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <b>FAQ and WoT Admin</b></font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><font color="gray"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> <b>Part-time Philosopher of the Wheel</b> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /></font></font><p><a href="/wotmessageboard2showmessage.asp?MessageID=107993" target="_blank">New WoT quizzes!</a></p><p></p>


created: 2001-07-02 14:15:59
subject: <b>Nothing from Winter's Heart?</b>
body:
There were a few things on Verin from WH too.  For one, 70 years ago she was exiled from Far Madding.  She also almost kills Cadsuane before realizing that she is looking out for Rand.  Perhaps there were other things as well?


created: 2001-07-02 15:12:05
subject: <b>What is her plan?</b>
body:
Hunting the Black Ajah maybe?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Efreet<br /><br />Extropian<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> Incurable Optomist <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" />Mainah<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" />Almighty ONSEC of MITSFS<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />Lover of Squaresoft, Manga, and Strategy Games<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/blush.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br />&quot;Liberate Natural Courgarness&quot;<br /><br />&quot;Reality is what you can get away with&quot;<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-02 17:29:20
subject: <b>Spot on Efreet!</b>
body:
I posted the theory before on the MB, months ago. But now Im back armed with pages of proof. But please dont discuss it before my theory is posted! It might take a few days before it is processed through WoTmania. <br /><br />BTW it never mentions the date that Verin was exiled.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="blue"><img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /> <b>PROUDLY CELEBRATING 10 YEARS OF WOTMANIA!</b></font> <img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /><br /><br /><font color="purple"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <b>FAQ and WoT Admin</b></font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><font color="gray"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> <b>Part-time Philosopher of the Wheel</b> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /></font></font><p><a href="/wotmessageboard2showmessage.asp?MessageID=107993" target="_blank">New WoT quizzes!</a></p><p></p>


created: 2001-07-02 18:20:31
subject: <b>Maybe, but maybe not.</b>
body:
Maybe Verrin was more involved than you think. Long before Rand ever came to be, a young woman abandoned her son and headed into the Waste where she became a Maiden of the Spear. Maybe Verrin helped with that. The Seventy years part could go all the way back to making sure everything happened to ensure his bitrh.


created: 2001-07-02 23:09:12
subject: <b>Giatra Not Verin</b>
body:
The Aes Sedai that engineered Rands Birth was Giatra Morose, not Verin Mathwin. According to the wiseones that was the name that Rands mother gave as the Aes Sedai that sent her over the Dragon Wall. Dyelin also confirmed that Giatra was Tigraines advisor thus letting Rand put 1 and 3 together and get 4. She may have also been the one who sent Lord Luc to the blight (either that or he fled in grief I don't recall which have to re-read the books). All this was done through powerful foretellings of things that HAD to happen.<br /><br />   Her last foretelling was when Rand was (re)born on Dargonmount. This was such a shock that it killed her in front of the current Amrlyn Seat and two novices named Moiraine Damodred and Siuan Sanche. That is the only reason why they ended up being part of the search for the Dragon. Just you're friendly trivial tomes expert giving you somethin to chew on.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-01 18:11:59
subject: <b>Nothing to do with Rand? Hardly...</b>
body:
The first question I must ask is what it would mean that Verin's theory has nothing to do with Rand. It almost certainly has something to do with Tarmon Gaidon, and since Rand is one of two main characters in that battle, it seems a stretch to say it has nothing to do with him. I do believe Verin's plan does not end with TG though, but rather with the next Age starting.<br /><br />Anyway, I'll say some of my thought on this:<br /><br />Now, let's see. Let's start from this theory (which I am not sure I believe is exactly true, but probably a bit on the way). Verin's plan is to see that Tarmon Gaidon is won and that any kind of &quot;Breaking of the World&quot; is limited. This means that her plan would not end with Tarmon Gaidon, but when the world has settled following it. Since the Dragon Reborn, according to prophecies, is responsible for the Breaking, he is an integrated part of this plan.<br /><br />If she started on this 70 years ago, conveniently just after her exile from Far Madding, she has probably had time to, whether alone or with collegues (I strongly suspect Adeleas and Vandene), studied more or less EVERYTHING on Tarmon Gaidon and the Dragon Reborn (RAND). Despite this, it's doubtful prophecies and the like has given any directions on particular instances. She would know what Rand is to do, but there is always the matter of how it is to be achieved the best way. Some ways are likely better than others. Even if she actually has made up her mind, it's hard to believe she wouldn't doubt her own decisions. Remember that this is THE PLAN, her reason to live. I can't even make up my mind on buying a new computer... Decisions are hard for everyone.<br /><br />Before taking your points one-by-one, I'll give my overall thought on one detail: I am a big Verin fan myself, and I get the feeling that you underestimate her grossly. Verin is extremely intelligent, and she does EVERYTHING for a purpose, if her actions this far is any guide. If she thought chopping off the legs of Rand would make the breaking less severe, she would. But, she goes even further: In all likelihood, she believes she mustn't alienate Rand until the very end, and therefore she would find some peculiar way of chopping off his legs that could NOT be traced back to her. Every act of obvious support as well as obvious attack must be omitted because it's dangerous. Those are things that can come back at you. Therefore it's natural she has chosen to sit low at times and almost never letting Rand know what she really thinks. Now, to some of your points:<br /><br />Your first points are in my opinion wrong because of what I have said above. Of course she would doubt her own decisions. When they are made, it's also quite self-evident that she would like the prophecies to be fulfilled as fast as they can. Verin's goal is not to bask in the glory of the Dragon Reborn. She is a practical and intelligent woman, so that if basking makes the world the best place to live in after TG, that's what she'll do. But if the best way is to ignore the Dragon Reborn, she will chose that instead. She cares about what Rand does and is going to do. This does not necessarily mean she cares much about Rand as a person. She cares about him as means to an end.<br /><br />Now for what you say about her plan:<br />The fact she says that her first clue on Moiraine and Siuan came 20 years ago, does not mean her 70-year plan does not have to do with Rand. It means that her first clue about Moiraine's and Siuan's involvement with the Dragon, came 20 years ago. In all likelihood it would be much easier for a woman who is researching the Dragon, than someone who isn't, to find out someone else is too. Since Moiraine and Siuan hasn't worked on it much more than 20 years, of course Verin couldn't have found out about them earlier. Siuan and Moiraine wasn't even BORN when Verin started her reasearch...<br /><br />Next, she says she has lived too long, been through too much etc... Now, think of it this way: Verin has been Aes Sedai for more than 100 years, probably 150. For 70 of those years she has researched for one specific goal, which I believe happens to be TG and its aftereffects. Rand, the Dragon Reborn is the start of the End Game. She will be around him for probably less than 5 years before her plan is finished. This is one young boy standing between catastrophy and success for Verin. In that light, the quote seems pretty understandable.<br /><br />Next, you seem to take for granted it's self-evident that Verin would want to protect Rand. Well,she probably would if not something else would be more important to her. Verin believes the prophecies must come true, and by speaking to Moiraine and Siuan, she has already shown that she will let their plan continue, by being a part of her own. By leaving Moiraine to take care of Rand, she can try to take care of things she can't tell Moiraine and Siuan about, by herself. As I said before, this is the End Game. While planning for 70 years was important, this is where she has to set up her scenario. This is her Great Plan, and as such it's doubtful she can do everything herself. Moiriane and Siuan has already been described as being two of Verin's half-allies, and therefore it's just natural she is prepared to let them do part of the job. By talking to Moiraine, she IS protecting Rand, although not doing it in person.<br /><br />Furthermore, Verin doesn't claim her involvement is because of Taveren swirl. She claims she swore fealty to him because of it. Verin has shown pretty clearly by now how her manipulations and plans work, and she would never swear fealty to Rand by her own choice, simply because she would think there were too many disadvantages with it. When she HAS sworn fealty, she simply has to adjust to the situation. Note that Verin hides her plans almost to EVERYONE and has a very subtle way of manipulating. It's also quite apparent by now that Verin's way works better than Moiraines &quot;my way or the highway&quot;-manipulation.<br /><br />The embassy confrontation is not hard to explain. It could have been the best way to be about, if the Aiel who scared and hurt the Aes Sedai actually HAD been ordered by Rand. In that case, Rand would have had to be handled differently, and Verin could not have known she had been mislead. It DID become disastrous, since the information didn't fit reality. Verin has also shown that she does not want to scare off anyone. If something possibly could go wrong, she would prefer to not be involved enough so that Rand could blame her and be alienated from her. She acts the way she knows best, in other words.<br /><br />Reaction to Alanna - I am pretty sure there actually is a quote where Verin said she DID consider bonding Rand, but chose not to. Since I don't have the books with me I can't find it though. Now, what good would berating Alanna do? Nothing. Instead she tries to influence Alanna (as she has the other Aes Sedai) to do things her way. It fits the way she is thinking. Don't underestimate Verin. What would worrying achieve? Nothing. She would have to think practical, because the situation has changed. Verin adapts and her first thought is, as it should be: How can I use this new situation (the bond) to my advatage. To care about Rand's actions is not at all the same as being a supporter, but you have actually said that her plan has nothing to do with Rand, not that she isn't a supporter of him. To keep him safe is not necessarily a goal of hers, even if her goal involves him intricately.<br /><br />Why the secrecy - This is easy: It's her style. She apparently has some sort of pact wioth Moiraine and Siuan, since she talked to them. Overall, her secrecy is part of her never wanting to tell what she is about. This works excellently in one way: You don't alienate even your main target, because he/she does not have any clue your after him/her. If say a pact with Cadsuane happened to be known by others, she would lose momentum. She could no longer negotiate with all parts of the puzzle. This is a tactic that has been used succesfully by, among others, my own country Sweden, which has led it to remain in peace for a world record of 180 years. Even if everyone suspects you one way or the other, it's what is KNOWN that makes things impossible. This way, Verin will still be able to talk with Rand WHATEVER HAPPENS. Sorilea might turn out black. Cadsuane might try to still Rand. Any actual ties with such people are dangerous, and Verin has decided that unless 100 per cent necessary, it should be avoided. It's her style...<br /><br />Regarding your quotes: <br />1) has been discussed above.<br />2) This quite expertly defines Verin's way of working. The most important is to use now what can be used and when tomorrow comes, be prepared to adapt to a new world. While planning is good, it is now that is important, because too little is known about tomorrow. This does not mean it's not possible to have a goal, but it's impossible in advance to know exactly how this goal is to be achieved. While it's an interesting quote, it does not say anything either for or against your point, but rather defines Verin's way of thinking.<br />3)-5), you even admit yourself, actually could say she DOES care about Rand. I think a much easier way of explaining this is that Rand has been an integral part of her plan ALL ALONG, rather than that it's only something for this very moment. <br /><br />The last part of your theory mostly considers things she does that can only be pointing towards concerning Rand. Since this is what I have been saying here, I don't need to address them. While I think it's an interesting theory, I can't see it can be correct, stated as strongly as it is. This is Verin's GRAND PLAN. If Rand was not part of it, she wouldn't concern herself with him, which even you yourself admits she does. She will never move on with her 70-year plan again, simply because she has worked with that ALL ALONG. While I can be very wrong in my own guess of her theory (it seems a bit too simple, doesn't it...), I would be more than surprised if Rand had NOTHING TO DO with it. Nothing up to now, indicates such. Verin is just a very very clever Aes Sedai.<br /><br />It's for RJ to tell us in the future, though. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /> Yubi <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Disclaimer:<br />This person has a bad memory, too much belief in his own opinions and hasn't read the books for 30 months. Therefore take anything he says with a huge load of salt. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-03 04:59:46
subject: <b>Right and yet not....</b>
body:
I think you are right...in a way, but at the same time not. Anyway it is my conviction that she is black, and I'm working on a grand theory that will prove this beyond the shadow of a doubt.


created: 2001-10-26 13:51:43
subject: <b>Thoughts on Verin</b>
body:
A very well thought out post, but I'd like to share a few observations about the Verin situation.  Lets talk about what we do know.  Verin has a task.  She has been working on it for 70 years.  This task is the most important thing to her, has been for 70 years, and will be till she completes it.  <br /><br />Whatever this task is, it is ground shaking in scope.  I don't think she is working on something of limited use, or something that affects only her or a few people.  I'm talking about things like boring a hole into the dark one's prison, the breaking of the world, the discovery of something major from the Age of Legends etc (this was not meant to suggest she is working on any of these things).<br /><br />I agree that her task is not directly related to Rand since it seems to predate him by several decades.  But she does seem to have at least some interest in keeping him alive and in the right hands.  This could indicate that Rand surviving is important to her task, or at least keeping him alive for some event is important to her plans.  If that is the case, her task may not be completed till the last battle is good and finished.<br /><br />However, her interest in Rand's welfare could also be that however much of a Brown Verin may be, she is still aware of the world around her, and may just be doing what is necessary to help Rand succeed.  Her comments about keeping him alive till he needs to die could just be her interpretation of the Prophecies of the Dragon. Many, including Rand, believe that he will, no, must die in/around/during the last battle.  A studious Brown is bound to have some decidedly firm opinions on this situation.  But this is all just speculation.<br /><br />Secrecy seems to be second nature to Verin.  Blinking her eyes may require more concentration than being secretive to her.  She is always playing her game.  In every situation, she never loses focus of her task.  Everything she does, she does to help her task.  Remember Cadsuane's comment about Nyneave needing to learn the lesson about what must be endured could be endured (Winter's Heart, p624).  She endures the little annoyances of Aes Sedai life.  The deferring to the right women, ordering around those she can, and telling noone what she is doing.  The fact that she doesn't reveal her plans to Rnad is nothing special.  Cadsuane doesn't reveal her plans to Rand.  Morraine never did.  Why should Verin?  Even Egwene doesn't.  I wouldn't call her Aes Sedai if she did.<br /><br />The only thing Verin seems to lack in comparison to Cadsuane is the age and legendary reputation.  Other than that, they appear to be very much alike.  Both seem to be atypical members of their ajahs.  For a Brown, Verin seems to be involved in causes one would normally associate with the Blues.  Cadsuane catches male channelers and false dragons enough for any five Reds and has no warder depsite being Green.  Sure she says she just doesn't have the time to train/acquire another but it is a little odd.  Both play their cards very close to their vest and rarely let others even know what game she is playing, let alone on which side she is playing.  Reminds me a lot of Morraine and Suian, though the two Blues seem children at play compared to Verin and Cadsuane.<br /><br />Granted, Aes Sedai play these games like you and I walk and talk, but Verin and Cadsuane seem to take it to the extreme.  For some reason, I keep thinking back 70 years.  I can't remember exacly where, but I seem to recall a comment from Verin that Cadsuane had been active back then, but Verin really didn't know her.  Cadsuane seems to have been one who was always off doing things, chasing after something.    My mind keeps throwing Gitara Moroso into the picture.  Signs keep pointing to her as the one playing the game that controls a wide array of people (if I've got the right name).  She started Morraine and Suian on their journey.  She send Rands mother to the Waste, and his uncle to the blight.  Why do I think she set Verin on her task?  While Verin's task may not be directly related to Rand and his destiny, they are linked in some way.  Was Gitara the who had the gift of Fortelling?  Or was she just there for it.  Whichever it was, she seems to have started a lot of things happening.  It might be that all these little tasks come together in some way allowing victory for one side or the other.  Perhaps Verin cannot accomplish her task unless Rand stays alive long enough to fulfill a certain piece of prophesy.  Which all seems to beg the bigger question, what exactly was Gitaro aiming at, and which side is she on.  <br /><br />Sheesh, all that and I'm still confused ...<br /><br />C ya<br />Dolphineus


created: 2002-09-07 12:42:34
subject:
<b>That all sounds pretty good <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /></b>

body:
...and I agree with all of it. Which is why I think she's a Black Ajah hunter. Take a look at the 'Verin the Mysterious' theory. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="blue"><img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /> <b>PROUDLY CELEBRATING 10 YEARS OF WOTMANIA!</b></font> <img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /><br /><br /><font color="purple"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <b>FAQ and WoT Admin</b></font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><font color="gray"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> <b>Part-time Philosopher of the Wheel</b> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /></font></font><p><a href="/wotmessageboard2showmessage.asp?MessageID=107993" target="_blank">New WoT quizzes!</a></p><p></p>


created: 2003-01-27 00:34:00
subject: <b>Verin</b>
body:
We know the forsaken and darkfriends want to keep Rand alive until TG.  Verin wanting Rand alive, or helping him, doesn't mean Verin isn't a darkfriend - Mordin has done the same.  Her cause seems unrelated to the black ajah, or anything they do - that, along with Morraine's trust, is probably the best clue Verin is not a darkfriend.  We know she isn't working for a forsaken directly - separate from the black ajah - unless its Ishmaemel, as he was the only one free 70 years ago.<br /><br /><br />From reading what Verin said about Rand and her quest, I got the impression her cause is something that will happen years after TG.<br /><br /><br />We know Verin or Morraine wasn't telling the truth about whether Verin sent Morraine to Rand.  This is the most interesting clue I think we have.  The only possibilities I can think of are:<br /><br />1) Something Verin did incidentally caused Morraine to find Rand.  Verin doesn't know she sent Morraine to Rand, so neither is lying.<br /><br />2) Morraine thinks Verin sent her, but someone pretending to be Verin sent her.<br /><br />3) Morraine or Verin forgot - possibly because of compulsion or similar use of the power.<br /><br />4) Morraine is lying, Verin is telling the truth.  Morraine had reason to hide Siuanne sending her.  This involves Morraine not being oath bound, and is very unlikely.<br /><br />5) Verin is lying.  This is the most commonly assumed, but most people forget something.  Aes Sedae, even if not Oath bound, never lie without having a reason.  Verin didn't deceive anyone, since Morraine already said Verin sent her, so people would still suspect Vernin's involvement.  This means either:<br /><br />a) Verin wanted to be caught in a lie, she wanted to show someone she isn't oath bound - without directly saying it.<br /><br />b) She wanted people to suspect Morraine isn't oath bound.<br />


created: 2003-08-23 13:44:41
subject: <b>Very good theory, Moridin2000</b>
body:
BradB-<br />You have the whole incident backward.<br />Verin told Ingtar &amp; Co. that Moiraine sent Verin.<br />Moiraine later denied this to Rand.<br />My conclusion: neither woman lied-Verin merely had in mind that &quot;Moiraine sent her&quot; {for a cup of tea the last time they were together}. The AS have telling the truth down to an art.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2006-01-26 18:32:54
subject: <b>Lies, lies, lies?</b>
body:
Concerning the claim that Verin lied - I found these claims in one of the elder Verin Theories:<br /><br />what Verin said <br />Submitted by the drewman reborn on 8/24/2002 1:29:21 AM <br />was to Intgar. Moiriane said she did not send Verin to shepard rand. Which she didn't. She sent her to watch over Intgar whom she knew was a Darkfriend.<br /><br />Verin's lie? <br />Submitted by Call_me_Tim on 5/22/2001 7:30:52 PM <br />I believe that RJ has stated quite clearly that the business of Verin telling Perrin that she was sent by Moiraine was a miswrite on his part, and not intended to be a lie of Verin's. It then follows that RJ's bother to state this endorses the concept that Verin has not clearly lied. I can find nothing else that she has said which could be a clear lie. Yes, she has many secrets, has a hidden past, and misdirects folks left and right, but that is the most common behavior of Aes Sedai if you take the entire story as a whole. When Aleis Barsala in Far Madding seeks her name, her answer is, &quot;All of you may call me Eadwina.&quot;, which isn't a lie. She wasn't directly asked her name, which makes the ruse even easier.<br /><br /><br />I have no idea what to make of them, but they do seem to make sense...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Several palms short of an oasis.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-02 03:41:18
subject: <b>Evidence</b>
body:
Oh my god!<br /><br />What is with you tedious Wotmania people and rummaging through novels just to find a single sentance.<br /><br />If I wanted to waste my time looking through the books for sentences proving my theories, I wouldn;'t be able to look at myself in the mirror anymore.<br /><br />forget it, from now on, I'll be like everyone else and spend a week writing a theory too long and boring for anyone to bother trying to read all the way through instead of cutting to the chase, and not wasting peoples time.<br /><br />Kidblondeel  &quot;bah I'm so disapointed in all of you&quot;


created: 2001-07-02 10:32:17
subject: <b>Well...</b>
body:
If you tend to make up stuff or remember something incorrectly(which many people do) then you might get this sort of reaction.  People want quotes so they can verify what you are saying is accurate and not just made up hooey.  A good theory should include the quotes.  And it doesn't take a week.  It should only take about 5 minutes to find the quote you're looking for.  Speaking of which, when Egwene uses Moiraine's trick it is in LoC when she is spying on the aes sedai sent by Elaida to &quot;escort&quot; Rand to Tar Valon.  This is part of the reason why the aes sedai think Moiraine is still with Rand.  She was known to do that kind of trick, there was a short geen sister among the wise ones, and Moiraine was short, so why not fake her own death and reappear as a green sister, plus the fact that she was in the room at one of the meetings.  At least that is their thinking anyway.  And the admins comments are very appropriate to your theory.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Vercingetorix<br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/803.gif" /><br />Theory Post Admin<br /><br />I went to the doctor the other day and all he did was drain some blood from my neck.  Don't ever go to Doctor Acula.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-02 10:43:52
subject: <b>redundant</b>
body:
Because Elayne is pretty well on the road to making Angreal, it's no longer important for Jordan to <br />to spend time in the books for them to discover the trick for doint it--Elayne already has.


created: 2001-07-02 11:07:20
subject: <b>I don't understand the logic here...</b>
body:
You recall that Moiraine says her staff and stone have no power and are NOT angreal, and then you link them to angreal by using some obscure wording about &quot;focusing&quot; or some such. Are they or are they not angreal? Are you saying that Moiraine made a couple of angreal without any Aes Sedai realizing it? Yeah, right.<br /><br />The part about Egwene is also wrong. If you actually read that part with any attention, you would realize that she did not use the stone to magnify her power, she used it to eavesdrop (like Moiraine often did with hers).<br /><br />Moral of the story: good luck next time.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/clown.gif" border="0" /> Myme <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/clown.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-02 12:40:40
subject: <b>What the !?</b>
body:
Alright, I am starting to get real sick of your theories and such because they almost never make sense. I dont even understand why they keep posting them. Wotmania really needs to clean up the theory post and only put out the good ones even if it means going back to a couple theories a week. This is starting to get on my nerves and I just needed to say something about it.<br /><br />Damer Flinn <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Damer Flinn <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sleepy.gif" border="0" /> Ashaman of the Black Tower <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sleepy.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /> Healer among the Guardians <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> Craziest channeler of them all! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-02 13:39:25
subject: <b>They use the stone and staff to concentrate</b>
body:
Moiraine and Egwene use these objects to concentrate. Because the eavesdropping trick is not common even though most people learned it on their own, it is like a wilder trick. There seems to be a small block with the trick so they need to use something to achieve an even greater level of concentration or &quot;focus.&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Hearts, stars, and horsheshoes,<br />Clovers and blue moons,<br />Pots of gold and rainbows, and me red balloons!!!<br /><br />If you go back in time and kill yourself, what would happen?<br /><br />Is that a penis in your pocket, or are you just happy to see me.<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-02 16:48:56
subject: <b>Do a little more research</b>
body:
If you could give an apporximation of the quote and what book it was in then I might take it a bit more seriously.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-03 02:40:07
subject: <b>Formal apology</b>
body:
I apologize for offending anybody, In truth I'm just really lazy, so here's your proof:<br /><br />p 272 TEOTW Starts at the last bit of dialogue plus the last paragraph.<br /><br />After Moiraine uses the power to put the parties scent in a different direction then they plan on going, before they go to shadar logoth.<br /><br />&quot;Your staff is very powerful,&quot; Egwene said, earning a sniff from Nynaeve.<br />Moiraine made a clicking sound.  &quot;I have told you, child, things do not have the power.  The One Power comes from the True Source, and only a living mind can weild it.  This is not even an angreal, merely an aid to concentration.&quot;<br /><br />Now I know that that is certainly ambiguous, but when you put it together with every discription of angreal, they relate in many ways.<br /><br />For the next bit I have to thank Vercingetorix for pointing out the book to me and being one of the few who didn't condemn my half assed theory.<br /><br />p 506 last paragraph is where it starts:<br /><br />  Well, she had not come here just to stare.  Edging back so only one eye peeked around the corner, just enough to see the great house, she drew a small red stone from her belt pouch, took a deep breath and began to channel.  If one of them was looking out on this side, she would be able to see the flows, but not Egwene.  It had to be risked.<br />   The smooth stone was just that, a stone polished in a stream, but Egwene had learned this trick from Moiraine, and Moiraine had used a stone for a focus-a gem as it happened, but the kind did not matter-so Egwene did too.  It was mostly air she wove, with a touch of fire done just so.<br /><br />The rest of the paragraph is irrelevent, but I hope these satisfy you all, usually whenever an angreal is described, they just say that it allows the person or persons to channel more of the ability than would usually be possible, but just as new things are explained as you go farther into the books (like how there isn't any really mention of &quot;weaving&quot; of the flows through the first couple books) angreal are more described as magnifying glasses for the power.  Objects that &quot;focus&quot;, or &quot;concentrate&quot; the processes involved in channeling.  And if you don't feel like taking my word for then take a look for yourselves, or just try to remember to notice it if you are reading the series over, cause it's there believe me.<br /><br />well sorry again, hope you can forgive my lack of a quote on the discription of angreal usage...<br /><br />Kidblondeel<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sleepy.gif" border="0" /><br />


