# w_comment

created: 2004-11-10 23:16:13
subject: <b>I'm putting this as my #2 suspect.</b>
body:
But only by lack of substantial competition. <br /><br />Lanfear ( Columbo's <i>The Homicide</i> ) and Graendal ( I don't know who wrote the theory, I read it from the FAQ ) are the best theories, but I never liked Graendal as a suspect. She doesn't seem to be the killer type, why didn't she just compel like she did Moghedien and Cyndane?<br /><br />All in all, this fits in with Etzel's Slayer theory. Neither is obvious, and both have holes in them you can run an airplane through. ( I have too much fun arguing with Etzel to put Slayer in my suspect list )<br /><br />What I'm saying is, I like your theory, and you've put in some interesting foundations, but there's practically nothing in it tying Taim to the murder. Most of the theory was explaining that Taim had knowledge, power, and was a friend of the dark. It also said that Taim was in the Royal Palace of Caemlyn, something I hadn't considered and that I think is possible.<br /><br />But you've not put in much tying him directly to the murder.<br />No reason. No explanation how he knew where to find him. And most of all, I don't think Asmodean would have recognized him.<br /><br />All in all, you've got to put more work on this one.<br /><br /><br />By the way, I think Asmodean, unshielded is at least as powerful as Taim. Remember, despite Rand's <i>angreal</i>, he still managed to put on a good show. More importantly, we know that <i>angreal</i> <b>multiply</b> the power of a channeler. And when Rand and Asmodean both held the Access Key of the male Choedan Kal, their powers matched out.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>War must be, while we defend our lives against a destroyer who would devour all; but I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend</i><br />~Faramir</font><p></p>


created: 2004-11-11 00:37:34
subject: <b>Several (Long-Winded) Points</b>
body:
&quot;However, what should stand out from those quotes is that mystery is obvious to a casual observer. A casual observer would not have access to Jordan quotes, nor the FAQ, just the books. Thus, I think the answer should be looked at in the books.&quot;<br /><br />What?  You mean RJ made a remark implying that the only people who can figure it out are the people who have never heard the remark he just made?<br /><br />&quot;I don't think the difference between faded and hung are without purpose.&quot;<br /><br />Be&#8217;lal&#8217;s voice faded after his body had vaporized.  In other words, you could still hear his voice after he was gone.  Then it faded.  None of the passages say anything about it being the &#8220;memory&#8221; of Be&#8217;lal&#8217;s voice, and if Jordan is as precise as you claim he is, wouldn&#8217;t he have made that distinction?<br />Asmodean&#8217;s voice did hang in the air, but unless there&#8217;s some hallway or closet in Caemlyn where you can still hear a voice yelling &#8220;You? No!&#8221; we have to assume that Asmodean&#8217;s voice also eventually faded.  So let&#8217;s review:  they both die; both of their voices can still be heard after they&#8217;ve died; both of their voices then fade out.  To say that there&#8217;s any difference is just semantic hairsplitting.<br /><br />&quot;Asmodean wasn't just made mortal by Jordan only to be killed by something that didn't matter if he was mortal or not. It would make no sense.&quot;<br /><br />What about the irony of balefire destroying Asmodean just a few hours after balefire saved him by reversing his earlier death?  Doesn&#8217;t that make sense?  What about the last death in a book where balefire is one of the central themes also being caused by balefire?  What about a man who has just spent a page musing about his ability to cheat death immediately opening a door and getting killed as thoroughly as you can possibly be killed?<br /><br />&quot;As for Graendal, her idiom is compulsion. In TPoD ch.12, for instance, when she believes herself under attack, she uses compulsion to strike out at Moggy and Cyndane, and at the CK Battle she tries using compulsion once again. There is no reason to believe Graendal uses anything else.&quot;<br /><br />	Rahvin&#8217;s idiom was also Compulsion, and yet he used a crapload of balefire when he fought Rand.  Why?  Because he was caught off guard and he panicked.  When Moggy and Cyndane showed up, Graendal was on her home turf, probably surrounded by her own traps and wards, and she had an angreal.  If she had been alone in Caemlyn, surrounded by enemy channelers, including Rand, and Asmodean accidentally walked in on her (and remember, she didn&#8217;t know that Asmo was shielded), we don&#8217;t know what she would have done.<br />	And by the way, reread the CK chapter.  There is absolutely no reference to Granny using Compulsion in that battle.  In fact, Verin&#8217;s PoV implies that she was using something much more deadly.<br /><br />&quot;For the first question, there only a few options. Either they were stolen, or a gift. Knowing that Taim was trying not to be found, stealing such said clothing which might have been valuable, would have attracted a great deal of attention.&quot;<br /><br />	There are a million ways to rob and kill people with saidin that would never attract attention as long as no other male channelers were nearby.  He could have easily followed someone into the middle of nowhere, done some strangling or neck-snapping with flows of Air, and made off with the clothes.  If he were far enough in the boonies, the bodies could easily go undiscovered for weeks. <br />	And then there are all of the other ways he could have gotten the clothes.  Maybe he bought them himself with money he either earned or stole.  Maybe he got some merchant to give them up willingly with some sob story.  Maybe he used Compulsion to convince a tailor to give them to him on credit.  There are a million possibilities that have absolutely nothing to do with Rahvin.<br /> <br />&quot;So once again, the questions arise, when did he shave? Did he steal a razor or use the OP? This would all, once again, be much better answered if Taim had time to rest in the Palace with Rahvin.&quot;<br /><br />	You don&#8217;t need a razor to shave.  You can use just about any sharp object if you&#8217;re careful (or desperate) enough.  And please explain to me how shaving with a belt knife on the fly is less plausible than a cocky, ambitious male channeler being the pampered guest of one of the most paranoid and territorial of the Forsaken.<br /><br />&quot;Knowing that Elegar meet Rahvin and Rand, it's hard to believe Elegar was really shocked and revolted by a False Dragon.&quot;<br /><br />	Re-read your first quote about Elegar.  He&#8217;s clearly scared stupid in front of Rahvin, and for all we know, he went off somewhere and retched right after that encounter.  And we didn&#8217;t see Elegar&#8217;s reaction to Rand&#8217;s arrival, so how do you know he didn&#8217;t retch then as well?<br /><br />&quot;If we take the approach that yes, Taim was working for Ishmael for years, then Asmodean has every reason to recognize and fear him.&quot;<br /><br />	In TGH, Asmodean may or may not have been free yet, and Taim was busy fighting a war.  In TDR, Asmodean was probably free, but Taim was in a cage somewhere in the boonies.  In the TSR, Asmodean was busy being Jasin Natael, and Taim was still on the run somewhere.  In TFOH, Asmodean was stuck with Rand.  So when exactly did the two of them meet?


created: 2004-11-11 03:38:05
subject: <b>To the Slayerdunnit sceptics above</b>
body:
Actually Slayer is the only person we can figure as the killer with just the clues from all books before LoC (&quot;Analytical Reasoning &quot; ), and thus he becomes the obvious killer (&quot;Obviosity&quot; ).<br /><br />I point it out in my theory, but once again in short:<br /><br />We had two other mysterious assassinations in the series before Asmo's death, namely the AS in the Stone and the Gray Man in the WT.<br />It is obvious that the same killer, who apparently can hit even in normally dangerous and inaccessible areas and then leave again without problems, also killed Asmo.<br /><br />One could figure that this assassin was Slayer with the clues in the books before LoC: <br />We know that Slayer is deadly and must be a skilled fighter from several sources; Slayer is well know and respected among the Shadow; the Shadow uses him as a kind of bounty-hunter/assassin to kill renegades; he can enter and leave TAR in the flesh everywhere.<br /><br />Of course the clues after TFoH further supported the Slayerdunnit theory since most Forsaken are ruled out, and we even get a Slayer PoV, where he thinks about his status and abilities and that he is indeed used by the DO or Forsaken to kill people, even other servants of the Shadow.<br /><br />On the other hand, Graendal became obvious to many people after other Forsaken were ruled out in the books &lt;i after TFoH &lt;/i&gt;, and Graendal stated in LoC (!), that she thinks Asmo is dead. <br /><br />Somehow the belief that Graendal is so obviously the killer become consensus among many fans (it was even stated that RJ said she killed Asmo, which is untrue), although actually one couldn't say that Graendal was the obvious killer at the end of TFoH.<br /><br />Also I agreed with this Graendal consensus without much thinking (it was somehow comfortable...), before I actually looked in the books and figured that the killer has to be Slayer.


created: 2004-11-11 07:14:20
subject: <b>I'm curious about the Graendal supporters</b>
body:
What makes her the &quot;obvious&quot; choice for Asmo's murderer at the instant of his death?<br /><br />From what I recall, she was supposed to be waiting in Illian. If she had learned that Rand had planned to go after Rahvin instead, like Moggy, wouldn't it make sense for her to bring Sammael with her, too? That was the plan after all, for the three or four (if you include Lanfear) of them to gang up on Rand. <br /><br />If you recall, they thought Rand would be able to tell if they were linked, so one person was going to be the bait, and not part of the circle. Since Sammael and Lanfear didn't go to Caemlyn, why in the world would Graendal go? She obviously wasn't there in time to link with Rahvin and help in any way, so why go later? Or, are we to believe she was there the whole time, but stayed hidden? It would seem to me that once they took their fight into T'A'R, she would have got out of there ASAP. <br /><br />The excuse of looking for angreal doesn't really wash, either, since Royal chambers wouldn't normally be on the ground floor, IMHO. And wouldn't it be more prudent to come back at a more opportune time to do something like that anyway, like she did in Illian? <br /><br />I'm with Etzel in this regard. Take away the later clues that point to Graendal, and there's little to no reason to suspect her.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2004-11-11 07:25:24
subject: <b>Problem with the Age card</b>
body:
Taim's age being estimated at 35 is used in this and most other theories about Taim's status as Darkfriend/Demandred.   The problem with using this as a piece of evidence seems wrong when we consider what we know about ageing.  Women channeling pure Saidar start to slow at 20 or so and look young for a long time.  But Rand who channels tainted Saidin is constantly being described as tired looking, different from the fresh faced lad.  Rand is looking a lot older, even people like Min recognise this and are blindly in love.  I'm sure Verin noticed a tightness around his eyes from coping with the struggle (of Saidin).  Sure you could attribute the change in Rand to the stress of being the Dragon Reborn but stress is relative.  Taim could be equally as stressed from being captured and subsequently hunted.  I guess my point is Taim could have started channeling fairly late for a man, lived with the struggle of Saidin (and the decaying taint)and the stress aforementioned and be 25 looking 35.


created: 2004-11-11 10:12:07
subject: <b>Light in the Night is correct</b>
body:
The only evidence in TFoH (in the books before TFoH Graendal is only casually mentioned once by Lanfear) for Graendal which is always quoted is that Moghedien tells Nynaeve in TFoH, ch.54, that Graendal is plotting with Lanfear, Rahvin and Sammael (what we also saw in the prologue). <br /><br />However, the plan was to draw Rand to Illian to attack Sammael (not to Rahvin in Caemlyn). <br /><br />Moghedien also tells that this is a trap and Rand will find Graendal &amp; Rahvin (and maybe Lanfear) in Illian.<br />But this plan was spoiled since Rand wants to attack Rahvin and as Moghedien also tells: Rahvin &quot;never trusted any of them. Why should he? He thought it all might be some trap set for him, so he has laid a trap of his own.&quot; <br /><br />So, it's clear that Rahvin wouldn't work together with the other Forsaken any more.<br /><br />Also nothing indicates that Graendal stayed in the Caemlyn Palace and helped Rahvin to fight Rand.<br /><br />Besides, her own thoughts speak against such courage, since Graendal considers in LoC, ch.6 &amp; ch.23, how dangerous Rand is and that she would even flee if Rand attacks her power base in Arad Doman.<br />Graendal is a very cautious Forsaken.<br /><br />Therefore even if Graendal was in the Caemlyn Palace at the time of Rand's attack for some strange reason (without the help of Sammael and Lanfear!), she would have left as quickly as possible then, and certainly not waited there several hours or come back on the same day.<br /><br />Considering this, it's really weird that so many people consider Graendal to be the a good suspect, just with the &quot;clues&quot; before LoC.


created: 2004-11-11 11:02:25
subject: <b>BUT...</b>
body:
If Jordan's comment that 'very, very few people' have guessed/reasoned out the true killer, doesn't this eliminate Graendal, Slayer and Lanfear as suspects??  However, perhaps when he made the comment (1998?) the majority of readers didn't have as much insight(theories and discussion) as we have now and all backed the wrong horse.  I still think Slayer is the best fit, but I hope sometime/someday we get a definitive answer from RJ.


created: 2004-11-11 15:35:46
subject:
<b>Good theory! Mad effort!  But wrong <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/frown.gif" border="0" /></b>

body:
I do not agree with this theory.  But sure do appreciate the effort and the logic you applied.  I gave it a thumbs up because you have presented a clear &amp; concise answer to the question that has been, dare I say the most heated subject for Wheel of Time fans.  <br />I&#8217;ve read so many theories and responses to this question, that I almost do not want to know.<br />But I am officially in the Ishamael / Moridin camp.  I think the only person who would want to be recognized before they snuffed out Asmodean would be Ishy.  <br />I think anybody else including Taim would have too many unanswered questions (i.e. is he really shielded? has he thrown his lot in with Rand? Can I kill him and get away with out being caught?)  EVERYBODY else would think it was a trap, and think they were being set up.  <br />Only Ishamael &amp; Slayer I think would have a in &amp; out that wouldn&#8217;t be detected by anybody in the palace.  Ishy is still crazy and still the most powerful and has started using the TP exclusively, all the other Chosen are afraid of him.  Slayer regardless of the logistics about being able to step out of Tel'aran'rhiod into that room at the right time, still wouldn&#8217;t be able to kill him because Asmo SAW him,  Slayer can not shield anybody, it would take Asmo a blink of an eye to wrap him up in air or worse before he could kill him. <br />So I liked and enjoyed your theory, I just do not agree.  Hell, as long as people continue to argue the point of who killed him, RJ will not ever tell us.  So until he does&#8230;..Moridin did it!<br />


created: 2004-11-11 17:47:04
subject: <b>At the time, the most obvious suspect was...</b>
body:
Sammael, no? Unfortunately, it's been proven he wasn't the one.<br /><br />So now we're left with a load of theories, each of them lacking crucial points at best.<br /><br />My favored theory is Lanfear, but even <i>it</i> has some unfortunate holes in it.<br /><br />The same goes for every other major theory. Graendal evidence comes almost entirely post-<i>The Fires of Heaven</i>, and is lacks some points. Why was she there? Why did she not use compulsion?<br /><br />This theory lacks practical evidence. I haven't seen anything solid at all, only detailing why Taim could become a suspect. Allright, I'll accept you gave him enough to put into the suspect list, but no evidence to suggest he <i>was</i> the murderer.<br /><br />Slayer is neither obvious nor logical. Even the faintest <i>hints</i> of his possible involvment come later than <i>The Fires of Heaven</i>.<br /><br />I wish RJ would just spill out the beans. Then again, it is fun to see new theories pop out regularly.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>War must be, while we defend our lives against a destroyer who would devour all; but I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend</i><br />~Faramir</font><p></p>


created: 2004-11-11 23:44:57
subject: <b>Yes, I've said as much</b>
body:
I've pretty much said what everyone else is talking about in one of my above posts.  Graendal wins the &quot;analytical reasoning&quot; venue, but fails obviosity.  Lanfear wins obviosity, but fails analytical reasoning.  But RJ says that few people are right about who killed Asmo.  So that rules out both of them.<br /><br />My opinion on the matter frequently wavers on the subject, because RJ's quotes are so ambiguous.  However, to the Slayer supporters out there (especially their leader Etzel), I can't even consider Slayer to be as viable a suspect as Taim, because of the fact that nobody really cared about Slayer after TSR.  If you go and look at the post-FOH WOTFAQ (and I know it's not perfect or even very good at this point...) and they don't regard Slayer as a non-loony suspect, either.  Perhaps as soon as Etzel read the passage, he instantly thought, &quot;Slayer!&quot; and if so, that's fabulous.  Me, I think slowly, and I ran through a couple possibilities, mainly Lanfear.  I admit that Graendal didn't cross my mind until I started looking at WOT websites, but the more I thought about it, the more Granedal seemed to work.  I know 90% of the clues came from post-FOH, but it still seems to be the best to me.<br /><br />None of the suspects are perfect.  Graendal certainly has many flaws.  Slayer would work, if RJ's &quot;obvious&quot; statement wasn't there.  Any 1st time FOH reader, intensely interested in the killer, would have to piece together clues from several books to pin down Slayer, and many of his abilities, only hinted at in TSR, were confirmed in WH.  Slayer is even further in the &quot;analytical reasoning&quot; camp than Graendal.


created: 2004-11-12 03:33:14
subject: <b>RJ's comments</b>
body:
I believe RJ's comments concerning Asmo's death must be regarded quite carefully.<br /><br />Especially his comment that it should be intuitively obvious to the most casual observer is clearly ironical and mocking. <br /><br />He also answered to another question about the Bowl of the Winds:<br />&quot;I think you know enough by this point. It is intuitively obvious to the most casual observer. I always hated it when my math professors said that.&quot;<br /><br />Also that only one person wrote him the correct answer, can't mean that just one person guessed the right name (everybody was suggested), but that one person wrote exactly who killed Asmo, why and how.<br /><br />On the other hand, I think it's true that RJ says one can figure the killer, and that all necessary clues are included up to TFoH.<br /><br />That means, like in another riddles in WoT, one has to connect several hints from several books (before LoC) to figure the killer.<br />Then the killer becomes indeed obvious.<br /><br />Of course with this RJ basically ruled Graendal out, even if their might be hints for her in later books.<br />For Slayer this hint searching and linking works perfectly.<br /><br /><br />One comment to AgingComputer<br /><br /><b>  My opinion on the matter frequently wavers on the subject, because RJ's quotes are so ambiguous. However, to the Slayer supporters out there (especially their leader Etzel), I can't even consider Slayer to be as viable a suspect as Taim, because of the fact that nobody really cared about Slayer after TSR. If you go and look at the post-FOH WOTFAQ (and I know it's not perfect or even very good at this point...) and they don't regard Slayer as a non-loony suspect, either. Perhaps as soon as Etzel read the passage, he instantly thought, &quot;Slayer!&quot; and if so, that's fabulous. Me, I think slowly, and I ran through a couple possibilities, mainly Lanfear. I admit that Graendal didn't cross my mind until I started looking at WOT websites, but the more I thought about it, the more Granedal seemed to work. I know 90% of the clues came from post-FOH, but it still seems to be the best to me. </b><br /><br />I pointed out above and in other posts how Slayer becomes the most likely suspect through the connecting of clues in the books, while Graendal is ruled out by RJ.<br /><br />And to be fair, you should also mention that Slayer <i> is </i> the main suspect in the WoTFAQ since WH!<br /><br />When I first read the scene of Asmo's murder, I probably didn't think much at all.<br />At this time, I wasn't already deeply lost in these many secrets of WoT...  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Later when I finally came to WoTMania, I first accpeted that it has to be Graendal since that seemed for some strange reasons almost to be the general consensus.  <br />Then I suspected Sammael for a short time. <br /><br />But in the end I figured that Slayer is most likely and obvious the killer, if you connect all hints (just before LoC) and hear what RJ said.


created: 2004-11-12 04:25:31
subject: <b>I agree</b>
body:
This is an excellent theory, yes there are some weak(ish) points but you point them out yourself. All of the theories on the Asmodean killing have weak points so that should not be a problem. Well done.


created: 2004-11-12 17:32:24
subject: <b>Murky Waters</b>
body:
The current WOTFAQ does hold Slayer as one of the top three suspects.  In fact, they say that he just might be more plausible that Lanfear or Graendal.  But here's the WOTFAQ's take on the &quot;obvious&quot; comment in regards to Slayer:<br /><br />&quot;<i>If Slayer did it, why keep it a secret? This one's pretty puzzling, since revealing Slayer as the killer wouldn't have solved anything - we'd still need to figure out who sent him. One possible answer is that RJ didn't want us to know too much at that point about Slayer's more interesting abilities - but this directly contradicts RJ's assertion that the killer should have been &quot;obvious&quot;. <br />This is as good a place as any to note that at least a few of the things that WH &quot;revealed&quot; about Slayer are really only confirmations of traits we should have known about from hints in TSR. The most relevant one of these is his ability to move around T'A'R in the flesh. Perrin's observations about Slayer's cold, inhuman scent, combined with Amys' warnings to Egwene about traveling in the Dreamworld in the flesh and what it does to you, should have prompted the connection between the two and led us to realize that Slayer could have gotten to Caemlyn as easily as any of the channeling suspects (see section 1.4.3 for a more detailed discussion of why we were confused). <br /><br />(To be fair, there is a difference between having reason to suspect Slayer might have special abilities (and people have) and having reason to be sure he does. Prior to WH, we had reason to suspect, but no reason to say for sure that he did, and thus, no grounds for reasonably basing a theory on those suspicions.) <br /><br />That said, the &quot;obvious&quot; criterion is still the biggest problem with the Slayerdunnit scenario. That is to say, since almost no one seriously considered him as the culprit until WH, Slayer is clearly not obviously the killer at all. <br /><br />However, we're using RJ's definition of &quot;obvious&quot; here, so who knows. Maybe RJ thought the knowledge from TSR that Slayer had been sent after Fain would make the connection between that and another assassination immediately apparent. Maybe the name, &quot;Slayer&quot;, was supposed to be enough of a clue [Young Blandford]. </i>&quot;<br /><br />There are just as many serious flaws with the Slayer theory as with any of the others.  For instance, how Slayer would know that Asmo was going to open the door at that exact time?  I don't buy the theory that Slayer can somehow &quot;see&quot; people through T'A'R, otherwise, why did he have such a tough time killing Perrin and Fain in the Two Rivers, and why couldn't he tell that the people in the inn weren't really Rand and Min?<br /><br />Second, the issue of Slayer being able to kill Asmo.  This is very ambiguous, because at one point, Asmo fights with the Power to kill Trollocs, and earlier in the book, he's struggling to make a goblet move.  Yet Rand says that he doesn't think that Asmo has been getting stronger.  Go figure.<br /><br />My other problem with Asmo's shield in regards to Slayer is the fact that even if Slayer killed Asmo, someone had to order him to do it.  And the ONLY person who knew that Asmo would be weak enough for Slayer to kill would be Lanfear.  And the same flaws for Lanfear-dunnit come into play for this, namely, how did Lanfear contact Slayer after her &quot;accident&quot;?  She wouldn't have ordered the hit before her tumble through the doorway, she knows Asmo's dreams and could just knock him off in T'A'R.<br /><br />I'd be interested to know who you think ordered Slayer, Etzel.  (Although I kind of feel like we've hijacked this BB <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> )


created: 2004-11-14 17:35:07
subject: <b>I like it</b>
body:
As has been said with all suspects there are holes, but I like this one.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">:0 Alea Sedai :0</font><p></p>


created: 2004-11-14 22:20:27
subject: <b>Not slayer again</b>
body:
I have never regarded Slayer as a suspect for one reason. It's not his style. Slayer appears out of the dream world at a destination he knows his quary will be in and does the deed nice and quiet like before stepping back into the dream. Asmo was walking around the palace in a random direction, opened a door and copped it. Someone sent to kill him would not have been looking for him there. Slayer would most likely have appeared in his room while he slept.<br /><br />The significance of Taim being in the throne room is twofold IMHO. 1st it shows that he was in the palace (obviously) and 2nd It demonstrates that he knows at least one of the forsaken, and therefore hints at the possibility he may know others.<br /><br />His reason for not uniting with Rhavin when Rand appeared is simply that they were caught unaware. Rhavin quickly shot off into T'A'R with Rand hot on his heals. Once that happened the window of opportunity for Taim was gone.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;I can express more emotion than laughter, anger and let's . . .&quot;<br /><br />Shooganooga<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-11-15 15:56:12
subject: <b>More on Slayer</b>
body:
To AgingComputer,<br /><br /><b> The current WOTFAQ does hold Slayer as one of the top three suspects. In fact, they say that he just might be more plausible that Lanfear or Graendal. But here's the WOTFAQ's take on the &quot;obvious&quot; comment in regards to Slayer </b><br /><br />Indeed, they consider Slayer to be &quot;perhaps more likely than either Lanfear or Graendal.&quot;<br /><br />As said, I differ about the meaning of RJ's obvious.<br />I think it's obvious if you actually <i> read and find out </i>, that means connect all clues in the books before LoC. <br /><br /><b> There are just as many serious flaws with the Slayer theory as with any of the others. For instance, how Slayer would know that Asmo was going to open the door at that exact time? I don't buy the theory that Slayer can somehow &quot;see&quot; people through T'A'R, otherwise, why did he have such a tough time killing Perrin and Fain in the Two Rivers, and why couldn't he tell that the people in the inn weren't really Rand and Min? </b><br /><br />Slayer spied on Asmo in the waking world, saw that he was alone and went in the room he believed Asmo would enter before him.<br />Note that Slayer is very familiar with the Caemlyn Palace. <br /><br /><b> Second, the issue of Slayer being able to kill Asmo. This is very ambiguous, because at one point, Asmo fights with the Power to kill Trollocs, and earlier in the book, he's struggling to make a goblet move. Yet Rand says that he doesn't think that Asmo has been getting stronger. Go figure. </b><br /><br />It's seen in the series that it is possible for non-channelers to surprise channelers, if they are quick enough, and hurt or kill them.<br /><br /><b> My other problem with Asmo's shield in regards to Slayer is the fact that even if Slayer killed Asmo, someone had to order him to do it. And the ONLY person who knew that Asmo would be weak enough for Slayer to kill would be Lanfear. And the same flaws for Lanfear-dunnit come into play for this, namely, how did Lanfear contact Slayer after her &quot;accident&quot;? She wouldn't have ordered the hit before her tumble through the doorway, she knows Asmo's dreams and could just knock him off in T'A'R.<br /><br />I'd be interested to know who you think ordered Slayer, Etzel. (Although I kind of feel like we've hijacked this BB  ) </b><br /><br />I agree that Slayer was ordered of course, but I'm not certain yet who did it.<br /><br />We know from RJ that the DO didn't order Slayer.<br />That means Slayer was sent by a Forsaken.<br />The candidates are Graendal, Moridin (if he was already back then), Lanfear or Rahvin (each before their death of course).<br /><br />One can consider different motives.<br />Of course most Forsaken have no interest that Rand is taught by Asmo since he becomes more dangerous.<br />Lanfear could have ordered to kill Asmo if something happens to her.<br />Moridin could have planned to sent Taim to Rand and thus wanted to get rid of Asmo.<br /><br />Since I'm on a re-read at the moment, I will look for clues to determine who most likely sent Slayer.<br /><br />For example for Graendal speaks that she also considers to use Sammael, so that he kills Rand.<br />This shows that she wouldn't attack by herself, but use others for such plans. <br /><br /><br />


created: 2004-11-15 17:24:27
subject: <b>To the Hijackers Etzel and Aging Computer...</b>
body:
The theory was about Taim not Freekin' Slayer. Argue somewhere else.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Ehhxxxhilennnt&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2004-11-15 23:39:44
subject: <b>at least argue the theory presented!</b>
body:
Not to be redundant, but I too feel the theory was well thought out and attempted to cover all bases. I also agree it fell short, just as most other theories do.  I just wanted to mention that if I spent the effort on formulating a theory, I'd at least want MY alternative theory &quot;flamed&quot; in my own theory post, rather than see it used as a means for others to reiterate their own theories ad nauseum.  A brief summary of/reference to your own already posted theories would definitely suffice, if it actually lends weight to your argument against this particular theory.


created: 2004-11-16 03:08:34
subject: <b>The big flaw of this theory is...</b>
body:
That it mainly uses clues from the books after Asmodean's death, especially LoC where Taim is introduced (like the Graendaldunnit theories). <br /><br />So, if any Taimdunnit supporter would be able to make a case for Taim only by using hints from the books before LoC (i.e. regarding this theory without the Arguments 2-5), he could probably become a very valid option.<br /><br />But till then, I believe that RJ's own words speak against Taim, namely that all necessary clues are included up to TFoH.<br />


created: 2004-11-19 16:43:42
subject: <b>You lost before you started.</b>
body:
A paragraph from the start of your post;<br /><br />And,<br />I asked about Asmodean again. He said that yes, we should be able to figure it out the instant he died. He said that he thinks it's obvious now and we should definitely be able to figure it out by the end of [TPOD].<br />[Aaron Bergman, report from NYC book signing, 20 October 199<br /><br /><br />You shot yourself in the foot with this piece of evidense, didn't you?<br /><br />There is no BASIS on which to surmize, at the instance of death, that Taim is the killer.<br /><br />The balance of the post only goes to strenghten the case for Lanfear or Greandal.<br /><br />Columbo is on the case!<br /><br />P.S. Their has only every been two suspects and they are Lanfear or Greandal.  As everyone knows, I'am strongly in Lanfear's camp.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2004-11-27 01:14:40
subject: <b>It was Semirhage</b>
body:
I don't have any proof. I'm not going to write an essay on why it was her. I didn't read any of the stuff you guys wrote. I'm tired. But I'm right, daggonit. And it was Semirhage. Goodnight.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">BOOBIES</font><p></p>


created: 2004-12-07 03:21:14
subject: <b>Re: Columbo</b>
body:
Columbo :<br />&quot;You shot yourself in the foot with this piece of evidense, didn't you?  There is no BASIS on which to surmize, at the instance of death, that Taim is the killer.&quot;<br /><br />I'd disagree.  Joiya's comments, clearly hinting of his dark connections and channeling power, combined with Bashere's mention of Taim being in Andor while the murder could have been taking place, is what I call a BASIS.


created: 2004-12-08 22:38:57
subject: <b>You don't have even a leg to stand on.</b>
body:
You can't even provide a crump.  There's no hint, anywhere, that Asmodean and Taim ever even met.  Asmodean clearly recognized his killer, and realized in a heartbeat, that he was about to die.  <br /><br />You forget that Asmodean had been tied to Rand for sometime before he was iced.<br /><br />Columbo is on the case!<br /><br />P.S. Rand was on the second floor directly above the scene of the murder at the time of the dirty deed.  Rand would have sensed Taim channeling.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2004-12-08 23:39:57
subject: <b>I like crump better...</b>
body:
[quote]You can't even provide a crump. There's no hint, anywhere, that Asmodean and Taim ever even met. Asmodean clearly recognized his killer, and realized in a heartbeat, that he was about to die.  You forget that Asmodean had been tied to Rand for sometime before he was iced. [/quote]<br />I have no objection to saying that Asmodean must have recognized his killer.<br /><br />However, why is it required that you see a meeting between the two in print?  Afterall, isn't there no hint, no &quot;crump,&quot; that says the opposite?  Where is the definitive proof that Asmodean wouldn't have recognized Taim?  See, you have no leg to stand on here either.


created: 2004-12-09 13:51:34
subject: <b>Xudoz, you're a funny guy.</b>
body:
You suggest that I cannot wipe Taim of the list because I have no evidense and I say Taims never even made the list.  How can you suggest that he killed Asmodean, when you don't have even a sniff?<br /><br />You're funny!<br /><br />Columbo is on the case!<br /><br /><br />P.S. What's Taim's motive?  You need a motive!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2004-12-10 13:50:59
subject: <b>I will let you go quietly.</b>
body:
Get out of jail free.<br /><br />Columbo.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2005-11-03 07:01:26
subject: <b>hmmm</b>
body:
I think it's a great theory. I would carry it even further though. Why not assume Taim trained with Rahvin, fought with the help of Rahvin against Rand at the end of tFoH, and got killed. Now Rahvin has taken his place, he let slip his disguise for Asmodean and killed him.


created: 2006-01-22 03:03:17
subject: <b>The reason</b>
body:
I don't think Taim would get involved in the battle.  I think Taim, who trained under Ishmael, would have known to not go after Rand.  That Rand was not to be killed until Ishmael did it might have been impressed in his mind.


created: 2009-01-25 00:01:44
subject: <b>Yup! And to add to that...</b>
body:
I don't remember where it was, but Taim was surprised that Rand did not know how to test for male channelers...I think this is because he knew Asmodean was teaching Rand, and he finds it surprising that checking resonance was not something that was taught. Maybe because that was one of the first things taught to him? hmmm<br />To take it even further, he has a reason to kill Asmo; he can't be recognized by Rand's tutor as a DF when he comes in to get all chummy. <br />Also, he wants to be the go to guy; not Asmo. <br />He had motive, he had means, and it is intuitively obvious. <br />Good job! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />


created: 2004-11-09 22:15:45
subject: <b>Nope, sorry</b>
body:
<b>And in Rand's POV, just prior to the murder, Bashere's introduction: 'He paused to make a leg and bow slightly, handling the curved sword at his hip gracefully despite the fact that incongruously he carried two silver goblets in one hand and a sealed pottery jar in the other.' Wine from a sealed pottery jar? Sounds like it came from a pantry. </b><br /><br />I have several BIG problems with this line of thinking.  First, you say so yourself, the scene with Bashere is BEFORE Asmo's death.  Second, Rand looks right down at Asmo, Mat, and Aviendha right before Bashere comes in.  So unless Bashere can be in two places at once, or can travel through time, this doesn't work.  Third, the door opens is NOT a pantry.  Asmo's just wandering around, looking for booze.  That Bashere has wine is not an indication that he killed Asmo.<br /><br /><b>I doubt that Bashere was waiting for Asmodean, it was just one of those circumstances surrounding the Dragon. As for the why, perhaps Min's viewing of Bashere (something dark) in CoT indicates that he is, in fact, a darkfriend. We gather from Asmodean that he spent time traveling the Northwest, having quoted an Arad Domani saying, not to mention the Hadnan Kadere connection. As a power in Saldaea, it is rather unlikely that Asmodean did not know of Bashere. If Bashere is a darkfriend, it is likely that he met Asmo (and provided Kadere for Asmo and Lanfear). </b><br /><br />The text around Min's viewing of Bashere distinctly implies that something bad may happen to Bashere in the near future.  Not that he is a DF.  This is one of those &quot;if&quot; viewings that Min considers so dangerous.<br /><br />Also, we don't know where Asmo's been.  He has information about Graendal, but that could mean anything.  The only reference we have as to Asmo's whereabouts pre TSR comes from Lanfear, who says the &quot;dug him out of a hole.&quot;  He was probably as far away from any of the other FS as he possibly could.  There's nothing to say that he was in Saldaea.  Just because it's BY Arad Doman is no proof.<br /><br />And BTW, what's this &quot;Kadere connection&quot;?  Kadere was a high-ranking DF, who happened to be a peddler, who was in the right place at the right time.  IMO, the whole peddler scheme was more likely to be initiated by Lanfear, she was the one doing all the planning.  AND she was Asmo's &quot;superior&quot; in their disguises.<br /><br /><b>From the timing of his arrival in Caemlyn, I assume that Bashere is serving Demandred. Also, from WH, &quot;You were supposed to be keeping an eye on him! You and Demandred both!&quot; (Graendal). This suggests that Demandred has an agent placed close to Rand. </b><br /><br />You neglected Graendal's lines about Demandred's desire to &quot;blunder&quot; into Rand.  This points to someone NOT particularly close to him, IMO.<br /><br />Sorry to be harsh, but this theory is pretty flawed.


created: 2004-11-10 04:47:02
subject: <b>No</b>
body:
Just one argument against it (though there are probably dozens).<br /><br />There is Bashere PoV in CoT, prologue where DF want to rob a seal in Bashere's possession.<br />If Bashere were a DF, he could simply give the seal to a Forsaken (he also calls them Forsaken in his thoughts, btw).<br /><br />It clearly shows that Bashere is not a Darkfriend, and nothing indicates that he was Asmo's killer.


created: 2004-11-10 10:03:52
subject: <b>A man of Bashere's status and courtly education...</b>
body:
...would never go to the Caemlyn palace to meet the DR and make an agreement with him so unprepared that he wouldn't bring his own bottle of wine and cups from his camp if its a Saldaean custom for greeting that he wanted to follow.<br /><br />Nobles don't order around other nobles' servants without permission anyway - he would have asked politely Renee Harfor if he could have wine. The idea that Bashere felt so much at his ease in the palace that he went to a servants' pantry to request from them a sealed bottle of wine is quite ridiculous.  The situation is totally different for Asmodean, of course - he's the man of the new master of the palace.<br /><br />Also, Bashere, who knows Southerners play the Great Game and is aware that Rand conquered the place and Andorans don't like foreigners, would most certainly bring one of his own bottles to be certain it hasn't been tampered with - and the fact he unsealed it only in front of Rand was to prove this too.<br /><br />Asmodean's strength has been reduced by the shield, but not so much that he can't strike at a non-channeler threatening him.  Bashere had absolutely no means to foresee where Asmodean was heading and couldn't be prepared for his entrance.  Bashere at no mean to kill Asmodean instantly either.<br /><br />Finally, why would Asmodean be so shocked to see a mere DF anyway? <br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="images/personalsmilies/30778.gif" />Wheel of Time Reference Library : Articles, maps, charts and misc.<img src="images/personalsmilies/30778.gif" /><br /><br /></font><p><a href="http://13depository.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">The Thirteenth Depository - a Wheel of Time Blog</a></p><p></p>


created: 2004-11-10 11:24:42
subject: <b>Erm...</b>
body:
You said that you believe Asmo wasn't balefired, only that his attacker has lightning reflexes.  Why? You present no evidence for this.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Chuck chuck bo buck, banana fana fo fu-...<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-11-10 12:00:00
subject: <b>?</b>
body:
I can not even begin to find a single part of you theory I can agree with.  I thank you for posting a new theory and stimulating discussion.  However, you idea is unfounded.  It has already been stated, but Asmodean could easly defend himself from a non channeler.


created: 2004-11-11 18:07:04
subject: <b>I've always thought it was Bashere to a degree</b>
body:
Firstly he could have been quick enough. He almost killed Rand to prove a point. Rand was standing a good distance away from Bashere when he threw that dagger at him, and like Rand said had he been a heart beat slower he would have been dead.<br />Close up, Rand would have been dead.<br />The same probably would hold from Asmo who was pretty much at point blank range.<br />And also the second bit of evidence is all the Saldaen refrences amongst the Darkfriends in tFoH as well.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Life is a journey of sorrow and agony, the only thing keeping us going is that light at the end of the tunnel.</font><p></p>


created: 2004-11-12 15:36:22
subject: <b>Why Bashere is not Demandred's proxy</b>
body:
There are better reasons against this particular theory, including lack of a motive, but I'm just going to focus on your assuption that Bashere is Demandred's proxy, watching Rand.<br />From the end of The Fires of Heaven until the prologue of Crossroads of Twilight, Bashere stays pretty much in Caemlyn.  He only leaves once, to take Illian with Rand and later fight the Seanchan in Altara (that was one trip).  After Rand disperses the army in The Path of Daggers, he and Bashere do not see each other on screen until the latter shows up in the rain with Logain &amp; co.  This can hardly be classified as &quot;watching&quot; Rand.  (The Asha'man with him, however . . . .)<br />The other problem with Bashere as Demandred's agent is the attempted theft of the seal he has charge of.  If the Shadow needed the seals badly enough to send thieves both to Bashere's camp and Dobraine's chambers, why could Demandred have not simply ordered Bashere to surrender it?  It seems like such a waste of valuable Darkfriends.  <br />The point of all this is, no, Bashere is not Demandred's agent, and therefore your only hope of a motive for his killing Asmodean is gone.


created: 2004-11-13 00:11:14
subject: <b>Hmm...</b>
body:
I guess it would be a surprise but I don't see it in Bashere. Even with the dark something referance from Min I don't remember the exact quote but that could also refer to Bashere's wife, SHE could be the darkfriend and SHE could have killed Asmo... Dun! Dun! DUN!


created: 2004-11-22 04:24:04
subject: <b>Details</b>
body:
I don't agree with your theory, but I was intrigued by the goblets and clay jar. Interesting detail.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Show me the Frangipani.</font><p></p>


created: 2004-11-27 01:18:09
subject: <b>Semirhage did it.</b>
body:
I like this theory better than the &quot;Taim did it&quot; one I just read because it's shorter, I'm tired and I don't want to read a lot. And I'm sorry but you're wrong, it was Semirhage because I said so.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">BOOBIES</font><p></p>


created: 2004-12-23 18:19:14
subject: <b>Why are we still having this debate...</b>
body:
..Graendel clearly did it. We've already thoroughly discussed motive, capability and obviousness, so no need to go into it AGAIN. The fact is, she is the only one who seems to have been aware of the murder. Don't forget she is the last FS known to have visited the DO prior to Demandred's summons to SG. Why else would the DO even discuss the possibility of becoming Naeblis with her, what else could explain that? Bear in mind RJ is trying to give us clues... yet people seem happier to come up with fantasies about why it could be someone else! I submit to you that nothing has happened since, that makes it &quot;obvious&quot; it could be anyone other than the FS. In light of that by simple elimination it has to be her. Humor me for a second. Assume it's one of the FS, then run through why it can't be anyone else but her.<br /><br />Rahvin, Belal, Asmodean - obviously can't be any of these. Either balefired or the victim!<br /><br />Lanfear, Arangar, Osangar, Ishamael - can't be any of these because they were dead or at the least incapacitated at the time. Simply put they require you to exercise artistic license to place them at the scene of the crime. It seems to me you wouldn't have to do that for something that's obvious.<br /><br />Moghedien - we know exactly where she was. Not guilty!<br /><br />Demandred - we know he can be discounted. You're letting your imagination run away with you if you don't agree!<br /><br />Sammael - I can't see why anyone would think he did it. Simply not his style. It's not obvious<br /><br />Why anyone would think it's either Semirhage or Mesaana escapes me right now. Many obvious reasons why it couldn't be them.<br /><br />That leaves Graendel. Everything points to her. Furthermore I think it's sanctioned. This is why the DO knows - he wouldn't want anyone aiding his ancient enemy, least of all one of his Chosen. Hard to believe any other DF would be permitted to pop one of the FS. It would diminish them, not to the DO's benefit.<br /><br />People think obvious. Think Graendel!<br />


created: 2004-12-27 17:57:22
subject: <b>And another thing...</b>
body:
the repeated argument that Aviendha would have felt the use of saidar is flawed. Ever heard of inverting a web!? Remember in WH at the cleansing, when Verin battles Graendal. She is unable to sense the use of saidar. Nuff said!!


created: 2005-02-04 18:17:10
subject: <b>no...</b>
body:
Bashere has a small ability to have killed asmodean, he can channel, if not much. seconed, how would asmodean possibly know who bashere was? even if he was working for demandred (which i also find hard to believe) Asmo wouldnt know demandreds plans. <br /><br />also, bashere has no motive. none whatsoever.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">-Sabin<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2006-12-28 09:56:47
subject: <b>Why the matrix is off, Bashere could easily have done it.</b>
body:
I personally support this theory, except for the part about Arad Doman.  Okay I know respectable members of the wotmania staff took a poll, but it left out one major part-the evidence.  Robert jordan clearly states that every single bit of evidence is obvious.  there was no poll on who had the most proof against them stright out.  And since Robert Jordan said this the other points are less, and someone with less means could still kill Asmo.


created: 2008-10-27 23:44:07
subject: <b>Three pointless ideas: Bashere's motive, means, and &quot;You? No!&quot;</b>
body:
I think Bashere's motive would have been that he suspected &quot;Jasin Natael&quot; (Asmodean) was a Darkie and thought it was time for him to go.<br /><br />Bashere could have killed Asmodean.  One, Asmodean was partially shielded; he may not have had the channeling power to defend himself against even conventional physical attacks.  Two, he does not have the reflexes, awareness, or skills to survive an attack from Bashere like Rand did.  Therefore, another thrown dagger could have done it for him.<br /><br />&quot;You?  No!&quot; could have been because he knew Bashere knew he was no good guy, and thought he might be in for the big plunge.<br /><br />That's a lot of &quot;could haves.&quot;  However, it was early pointed out that the logistics do not work, so...never mind all of the above. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />


created: 2004-11-16 05:28:40
subject: <b>Sorry, I don't agree</b>
body:
I also think you've got a few things wrong here.  Shaidar Haran's ability to stop people from channeling is definitely NOT shielding in the normal sense.  Those who have experienced it describe the Source as being completely absent; they cannot sense it AT ALL.  This is strongly at odds with shielding as it has been presented in the novels.  It seems more like a stedding effect, from the way it has been described.  <br /><br />Furthermore, Slayer thinks to himself that few men besides the Forsaken know of him, and NONE OF THOSE can channel, which you quote, and then brazenly state that somehow you think this means that some of them CAN channel.  Nice work!  Here's the quote: &#8220;Few save the Chosen knew how to reach him, and<font size="-1"><b> none of the men among those few could channel</b></font>, or would have dared trying to command him. &#8221;  So, none of them could channel, nor would any of them have tried to give him an order.  I find it difficult to find any other meaning in this passage.<br /><br />I think the reason Slayer is so confident in his attacks on channellers is because of stealth.  It's difficult to know whether or not he can see the 'real world' whilst still in TAR, but if he can, then it would be very simple for him to pop out of TAR behind a channeler and kill them before said channeler could react -slit their throat or something similar.  Slayer's arrogance stems from his ability to move to and from TAR at will, in my opinion.  This gives him an advantage against everyone, channeler or not, because he can pop out of thin air, without being sensed by either male or female channelers, or, presumably, by anyone who isn't looking straight at him when he leaves TAR.  <br /><br />Your point about the parallels between the abilities of shadowspawn and channelers is well made, but unfortunately Slayer already has an ability which is unique to someone who cannot channel - he can physically travel through TAR, which is what, it seems to me, RJ was referring to in your quote.<br /><br />My biggest disagreement with this idea though is the parallels between our three tar'veren and those who seem (to me) to be their equal and opposite opponents amongst the Shadow; ie Rand and Moridin, Mat and the Gholam and Perrin and Slayer.  Rand and Moridin are obvious opposites, both being the leaders of their respective sides, powerful channelers, one the champion of light the other of darkness, etc.  Mat and the gholam both have lightning fast reflexes and the ability to absorb weaves which are channelled at them.  Perrin and Slayer both have the ability to enter Tel'aran'rhiod (although Perrin can only do so in his dreams) and have that wolves vs darkhounds kinda thing going.  Whether Slayer also has enhanced senses in a similar fashion to Perrin is unknown, but he certainly cannot see in the dark like Perrin can (which we know from when he popped into Far Madding to attempt to assassinate Rand and Min - he had to light a lantern to see who they were after the killing).<br /><br />Overall, I think that there is little if any evidence for Slayer having such an ability, and I don't think he really needs it.  If, for example, he had the ability to become invisible in the 'real world' (which I'm not saying he does, it's just for the sake of argument) then he could leave TAR and strike at channelers with impunity.  It has been well established in the novels that any channeler can be killed by a surprise attack, and surprise attacks, I would argue, are Slayer's specialty.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /> Baphomet 23 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br />Give me the strength to change the things I can, the grace to accept the things I cannot, and a great big bag of money.<br /><br />My online gallery:<br />http://daveb23.deviantart.com/gallery/<br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-11-16 07:12:26
subject:
<b>Ah, a comment! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /></b>

body:
To baphomet23, <br /><br /><b> I also think you've got a few things wrong here. Shaidar Haran's ability to stop people from channeling is definitely NOT shielding in the normal sense. Those who have experienced it describe the Source as being completely absent; they cannot sense it AT ALL. This is strongly at odds with shielding as it has been presented in the novels. It seems more like a stedding effect, from the way it has been described. </b><br /><br />My point is that the DO can give gifts which are twisted abilities, normally only channelers have.<br /><br />That means SH's ability is not like an OP shield.<br />But it has the same effect, that means your opponent can't channel anymore.<br /><br /><b> Furthermore, Slayer thinks to himself that few men besides the Forsaken know of him, and NONE OF THOSE can channel, which you quote, and then brazenly state that somehow you think this means that some of them CAN channel. Nice work! Here's the quote: &#8220;Few save the Chosen knew how to reach him, and none of the men among those few could channel, or would have dared trying to command him. &#8221; So, none of them could channel, nor would any of them have tried to give him an order. I find it difficult to find any other meaning in this passage. </b><br /><br />In my view Slayer means that some of these others who know how to reach him could not channel (that rules them already out as the possible patron). <br />And even those who know how to reach Slayer and can channel would not dare trying to command him, as the patron does (that rules them out).<br />The Forsaken are an exception, they can channel and dare to command him. <br />Therefore the patron has to be one of them.<br /><br /><b> I think the reason Slayer is so confident in his attacks on channellers is because of stealth. It's difficult to know whether or not he can see the 'real world' whilst still in TAR, but if he can, then it would be very simple for him to pop out of TAR behind a channeler and kill them before said channeler could react -slit their throat or something similar. Slayer's arrogance stems from his ability to move to and from TAR at will, in my opinion. This gives him an advantage against everyone, channeler or not, because he can pop out of thin air, without being sensed by either male or female channelers, or, presumably, by anyone who isn't looking straight at him when he leaves TAR. </b><br /><br />Note, though, that Slayer got many gifts to become an assassin, not just using TAR. <br />These gifts are apparently almost as useful as immunity against weapons or poison.<br />Shielding a channeler fits with this. <br /><br /><b> Your point about the parallels between the abilities of shadowspawn and channelers is well made, but unfortunately Slayer already has an ability which is unique to someone who cannot channel - he can physically travel through TAR, which is what, it seems to me, RJ was referring to in your quote. </b><br /><br />Again, I believe Slayer's ability to be the top-assassin of the Shadow because of his many gifts, can't be that he can just use TAR.<br />Therefore I believe RJ also hints at a gift Slayer got, which is especially useful against channelers.<br /><br /><b> My biggest disagreement with this idea though is the parallels between our three tar'veren and those who seem (to me) to be their equal and opposite opponents amongst the Shadow; ie Rand and Moridin, Mat and the Gholam and Perrin and Slayer. Rand and Moridin are obvious opposites, both being the leaders of their respective sides, powerful channelers, one the champion of light the other of darkness, etc. Mat and the gholam both have lightning fast reflexes and the ability to absorb weaves which are channelled at them. Perrin and Slayer both have the ability to enter Tel'aran'rhiod (although Perrin can only do so in his dreams) and have that wolves vs darkhounds kinda thing going. Whether Slayer also has enhanced senses in a similar fashion to Perrin is unknown, but he certainly cannot see in the dark like Perrin can (which we know from when he popped into Far Madding to attempt to assassinate Rand and Min - he had to light a lantern to see who they were after the killing). </b><br /><br />Well, Mat is not immune against weapons and can't vanish through little holes like the gholam.<br />Rand can't use a Power that no one detects like Moridin.<br /><br />I don't see at all, why Slayer can't have another, additional ability against channelers, compared to Perrin, especially since you admit that Perrin has also other abilities, namely his wolf senses.<br /><br /><b> Overall, I think that there is little if any evidence for Slayer having such an ability, and I don't think he really needs it. If, for example, he had the ability to become invisible in the 'real world' (which I'm not saying he does, it's just for the sake of argument) then he could leave TAR and strike at channelers with impunity. It has been well established in the novels that any channeler can be killed by a surprise attack, and surprise attacks, I would argue, are Slayer's specialty. </b><br /><br />I think it makes sense that Slayer got such an ability among the many gifts, and nothing really speaks against the possibility in my view. <br />Slayer's confidence seems to support it, too.<br />Of course we never explicitily saw Slayer using this gift, so that it could become a surprise in the next books.


created: 2004-11-16 07:50:14
subject: <b>Erm...</b>
body:
I'm sorry but I don't agree either.  You've taken a premise, and then tried to find justification for it rather than allowing a conclusion to flow from the facts. If you had an example of a situation where Slayer appeared to have actually shielded a channeler then your theory would be a lot more credible.  Apart from anything else, it wouldn't be like Jordan to waste such a useful plot device, we'd have heard a lot more about it.<br />You say in your comment's to Baphomet 23 that there is nothing to speak against your theory.  No there isn't, but there isn't anything to really speak for it either.  Sorry.


created: 2004-11-16 08:17:58
subject: <b>Well, I think there are clues, jaheira.</b>
body:
Probably not many noted that the Forsaken must have certain marks from the DO. The hints in the books are spare.<br />Nevertheless RJ stated now that they have these marks.<br /><br />I believe also in Slayer's case subtle hints can be found, which show that he can shield channelers, even if we never saw it.<br /><br />Slayer speaks of many important gifts he got from the DO.<br />It's seen that Slayer is very respected among the Shadow. <br /><br />It just makes sense to give him such an ability.<br /><br />We even know that the DO can give such a gift with the TP. <br />Also Moghedien considers in ACoS, ch.25, about channeling near SH:<br />&quot;The strange shield Shaidar Haran had used on her &#8212;Myrddraal could not, but it did&quot;.<br /><br />Slayer killed already several AS, and has no problems to try to kill even the strongest channelers.<br /><br />Of course RJ wants to keep it as a surprise for many readers. <br />Therefore he doesn't tell or show at once what Slayer's abilities are. <br />


created: 2004-11-16 08:49:44
subject:
<b>A reply to your reply <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /></b>

body:
I still think Slayer's thoughts about those few besides the Chosen who know how to find him not being able to channel means they can't channel; but that's just me, I'm silly that way. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />  I guess the use of 'or' as opposed to 'nor' does add a tiny bit of ambiguity to the passage, but not really.<br /><br />Anyway, I've suggested other abilities that might be just as responsible for making Slayer so arrogant when it comes to channelers, such as the ability to see out of TAR into the real world.  I think this is much more in-line with the abilities Slayer has displayed thus far and therefore makes it a bit more likely.<br /><br />As for the question of who the patron might be, I think you worked that one out when you suggested in another theory that it was Osan'gar.  This fits very nicely with all the facts.<br /><br />Also, Mat does have an uncanny ability of getting out of tight squeezes!  Mebbe the Gholam's similar ability is something of a humorous parody of said nack of Mat's.  And he's also bloody hard to kill, being Ta'veren and all...<br /><br />Slayers other 'gifts' could be just about anything.  No, he can't see in the dark like Perrin, but maybe his senses of hearing or smell are just as accurate.  Or maybe he has been given uncanny accuracy with projectile weapons and such.  Maybe he has lightning quick reflexes.  Maybe he CAN turn invisible. There are so many gifts he might have that would account for his arrogance.  Maybe he can change his appearance in TAR and then carry that change out into the 'real world' -and he just hasn't done so thus far in the novels because he IS so arrogant.<br /><br />I just don't think it's likely that he'll be able to block or shield a channeler.  He doesn't need it, he already has a very useful, unique ability, that no-one knows of other than the Chosen and a select few darkfriends.  I don't think you have anything to back this up, other than the fact that he does have other gifts besides being able to enter TAR in the flesh, and he doesn't seem to fear channelers as much as the average man on the street.  Mebbe he's been told a dark prophecy that told him he'll be present at Tarmon'Gaidon.  If so, then he KNOWS he's not gonna get killed beforehand and acts as if he's bulletproof.  There are so many possibilities...<br /><br />I'll be more surprised if this turned out to be correct than if Moridin turned out to have been masquerading as Taim since LOC.  Seriously.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /> Baphomet 23 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br />Give me the strength to change the things I can, the grace to accept the things I cannot, and a great big bag of money.<br /><br />My online gallery:<br />http://daveb23.deviantart.com/gallery/<br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-11-16 09:18:51
subject: <b>I, too, beg to differ...</b>
body:
One point no one has addressed is that the Shadow already has specialized killers for channelers - the gholam (gholams? ghola? gholamses?).  It's not like RJ (or the DO, for that matter) to go around doubling up functions.  Granted, one could argue that perhaps only one gholam has been found, and him only recently -- this would have given the DO reason to create an assassin for channelers.  But I agree with previous posters that there isn't a great need for shielding capabilities when you can pop in and out of TAR at need.<br /><br />I have long been tantalized by what Slayer's gifts are.  I don't have my books with me, so I would love to see someone tackle the &quot;why&quot; of Slayer.  Why was he created?  Is it important (I cannot imagine otherwise) that he is a fusion of Isam and Luc - relatives of Lan and Rand?  I think that if we could chip away at the reasons for Slayer's creation, we should be able to better extrapolate some more of those mysterious gifts.<br /><br />Ultimately, I agree with the earlier posting - you prove that your theory could be true, not that it is.  I am pretty convinced, however, that Slayer killed Asmo.<br /><br />Thanks for a fun theory.<br /><br />TFK


created: 2004-11-16 13:18:03
subject: <b>hmmm..</b>
body:
other people have presented points as to why they disagree, and i agree with them, so i'm not gonna bother with saying all that again. a point i wanted to bring up was the Shaidar Haran thing -- i always thought that he had access to the True Power.<br /><br /><u>A Crown of Swords, Chapter 40: Spears</u><br /><i>Angry black flames raced down the spear haft from Shaidar Haran's hand, the hand of the Hand of the Shadow.</i><br />and a little later in the same chapter,<br /><i>With a snarl, it turned to find the edge of the shadow that it needed.</i><br /><br />the first passage kinda shows that he's got something more than a &quot;stedding&quot; effect, and the 2nd shows that myrddraal can't travel, but they do something with shadows and whatnot. they're <i>&quot;slightly out of phase with time and reality.&quot;</i> (POD, chapter 12, New Alliances). it's also worth mentioning that he makes a ball of light in the same chapter. more TP evidence?? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">In war, you say a prayer for your dead and ride on, because there is always another fight over the next horizon.</font><p></p>


created: 2004-11-17 03:17:07
subject: <b>I have too disagree</b>
body:
His arrogance extends to everyone as we see when he meets Perrin in the real world for the first time. &quot;Lord Luc comes too the same farm as Perrin were he meets Verin, dismisser her and see her Warder.<br />&quot;Thomas he barely glanced at. He had to know him for &quot;mistress Mathwin&#180;s Warder, yet dismissed him out of hand as clearly asif he had shouted it. That was purely strange. However good he was with that sword, no one was good enough to dismiss a Warder. Arrogance&quot;<br />His arrogance probably comes from, as said, a prophecy telling him that he will fight att TG or som such. Maybe he can &quot;jump into&quot; TaR instantaneously...


created: 2004-11-17 05:56:56
subject: <b>To baphomet23</b>
body:
<b> I still think Slayer's thoughts about those few besides the Chosen who know how to find him not being able to channel means they can't channel; but that's just me, I'm silly that way.  I guess the use of 'or' as opposed to 'nor' does add a tiny bit of ambiguity to the passage, but not really. </b><br /><br />I agree that there are men who can't channel, but know how to reach Slayer.<br />On the other hand, I believe there are also men who can channel but wouldn't dare to command Slayer.<br /><br />Considering that channelers are mainly in higher positions among the Shadow of course, and we know that there are male channeler Darkfriends, it would be quite strange if some lesser men know how to reach Slayer, but the new &quot;Dreadlords&quot; not.<br /><br /><b> Anyway, I've suggested other abilities that might be just as responsible for making Slayer so arrogant when it comes to channelers, such as the ability to see out of TAR into the real world. I think this is much more in-line with the abilities Slayer has displayed thus far and therefore makes it a bit more likely. </b><br /><br />Well, Slayer didn&#8217;t really display all of his many gifts.<br /><br />Nevertheless, I believe it makes sense that Slayer got an ability which is especially useful against channelers, at least in an emergency situation.<br /><br />Considering that the gholam was the best weapon for the Shadow, it&#8217;s likely that if the DO wanted to create a new assassin, he would give him also at least a little protection and advantage against channelers.<br /><br /><b> As for the question of who the patron might be, I think you worked that one out when you suggested in another theory that it was Osan'gar. This fits very nicely with all the facts. </b><br /><br />Yes, indeed, I believe Osan'gar is Slayer's patron.<br /><br /><b> Also, Mat does have an uncanny ability of getting out of tight squeezes! Mebbe the Gholam's similar ability is something of a humorous parody of said nack of Mat's. And he's also bloody hard to kill, being Ta'veren and all... </b><br /><br />Hmm...<br />Anyway, just because Perrin can't shield channelers, it doesn't mean that also Slayer can't.<br /><br /><b> Slayers other 'gifts' could be just about anything. No, he can't see in the dark like Perrin, but maybe his senses of hearing or smell are just as accurate. Or maybe he has been given uncanny accuracy with projectile weapons and such. Maybe he has lightning quick reflexes. Maybe he CAN turn invisible. There are so many gifts he might have that would account for his arrogance. Maybe he can change his appearance in TAR and then carry that change out into the 'real world' -and he just hasn't done so thus far in the novels because he IS so arrogant. </b><br /><br />Hmm, it&#8217;s surprising that you consider all possible kind of gifts, but shielding a channeler, which is after all something also seen used by another creature made by the DO, namely SH, seems so unlikely to you.<br /><br /><b> I just don't think it's likely that he'll be able to block or shield a channeler. He doesn't need it, he already has a very useful, unique ability, that no-one knows of other than the Chosen and a select few darkfriends. I don't think you have anything to back this up, other than the fact that he does have other gifts besides being able to enter TAR in the flesh, and he doesn't seem to fear channelers as much as the average man on the street. Mebbe he's been told a dark prophecy that told him he'll be present at Tarmon'Gaidon. If so, then he KNOWS he's not gonna get killed beforehand and acts as if he's bulletproof. There are so many possibilities... </b><br /><br />I can imagine situations were Slayer would need it.<br /><br /><b> I'll be more surprised if this turned out to be correct than if Moridin turned out to have been masquerading as Taim since LOC. Seriously. </b><br /><br />Well, contrary to this theory, there are several clues which speak against the idea that Moridin is disguised as Taim.<br />


created: 2004-11-17 06:14:45
subject: <b>Other replies</b>
body:
To The Fisher King,<br /><br /><b> One point no one has addressed is that the Shadow already has specialized killers for channelers - the gholam (gholams? ghola? gholamses?). It's not like RJ (or the DO, for that matter) to go around doubling up functions. Granted, one could argue that perhaps only one gholam has been found, and him only recently -- this would have given the DO reason to create an assassin for channelers. But I agree with previous posters that there isn't a great need for shielding capabilities when you can pop in and out of TAR at need. </b><br /><br />I believe that the usefulness of the gholam is actually the reason why the DO would consider to give also Slayer an advantage against chanellers.<br /><br />And as I said, one can easily imagine situations where a shielding ability could be crucial.<br />For example if Slayer were held with the OP, he couldn't enter TAR.<br /><br /><b> I have long been tantalized by what Slayer's gifts are. I don't have my books with me, so I would love to see someone tackle the &quot;why&quot; of Slayer. Why was he created? Is it important (I cannot imagine otherwise) that he is a fusion of Isam and Luc - relatives of Lan and Rand? I think that if we could chip away at the reasons for Slayer's creation, we should be able to better extrapolate some more of those mysterious gifts. </b><br /><br />That are good questions.<br />At least the gifts come certainly from the DO, and thus there origin must be the True Power (like in SH's case).<br /><br /><b> Ultimately, I agree with the earlier posting - you prove that your theory could be true, not that it is. I am pretty convinced, however, that Slayer killed Asmo. </b><br /><br />Of course, it's just a theory. We will read and find out.<br /><br />But at least you are in the Slayerdunnit-camp... <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><b> Thanks for a fun theory. </b><br /><br />No problem, it's my job. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br />To Mintharis, <br /><br /><b> the first passage kinda shows that he's got something more than a &quot;stedding&quot; effect, and the 2nd shows that myrddraal can't travel, but they do something with shadows and whatnot. they're &quot;slightly out of phase with time and reality.&quot; (POD, chapter 12, New Alliances). it's also worth mentioning that he makes a ball of light in the same chapter. more TP evidence?? </b><br /><br />If you read SH's PoV it's quite clear that he doesn't channel, though.<br /><br />Of course I agree that his abilities originate from the True Power, like the abilities from other Shadowspawn, like Slayer's.<br />Therefore also Slayer could have an ability to shield channelers, just not as strong.<br /><br /><br />To meeku,<br /><br /><b> His arrogance extends to everyone as we see when he meets Perrin in the real world for the first time. &quot;Lord Luc comes too the same farm as Perrin were he meets Verin, dismisser her and see her Warder.<br />&quot;Thomas he barely glanced at. He had to know him for &quot;mistress Mathwin&#180;s Warder, yet dismissed him out of hand as clearly asif he had shouted it. That was purely strange. However good he was with that sword, no one was good enough to dismiss a Warder. Arrogance&quot;<br />His arrogance probably comes from, as said, a prophecy telling him that he will fight att TG or som such. Maybe he can &quot;jump into&quot; TaR instantaneously... </b><br /><br />Of course as a person who stands such high among the Shadow, he is arrogant.<br />Still, that Slayer shows no fear to take on channelers shows that he must have a trump card as a last resort.<br /><br />


created: 2004-11-17 12:23:16
subject: <b>Don't we already know the other gifts Slayer is referring to?</b>
body:
Maybe I'm wrong, but it seems to me that this theory is based largely on the fact that Slayer thinks about receiving many &quot;gifts&quot; as opposed to receiving a single &quot;gift&quot; (ie, the ability to use TAR.)  The truth is that we already know some of the other things that Slayer has received from the DO.  First, the DO kept either Luc or Isam from being killed (I believe it's Luc, and I think you're pretty certain it's Isam, but the details aren't particularly important for this conversation.)  Connected to that is the ability to switch from one personality to the other, which may or may not be considered a seperate gift.  Finally, we also know that Slayer can command Myrddraal and Trollocs, not something the average DF can do.  This could also be considered a gift from the DO.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Diomedes <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-11-17 23:42:10
subject: <b>I doubt it</b>
body:
If this were one of his gifts you would think he would have thought about it when he might have to try and kill Rand again.  Besides, who needs to shield someone when they're already asleep as Rand was in Far Madding and would likely be again if Slayer tried again.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sir Jim<br />Lord of Minutia&#8482;<br />King of WoT MB Posts&#8482;<br /><br />Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so.</font><p></p>


created: 2004-11-18 00:43:52
subject:
<b>Replying to your reply to my  reply, Etzel <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /></b>

body:
<font size="-1"><b>Considering that channelers are mainly in higher positions among the Shadow of course, and we know that there are male channeler Darkfriends, it would be quite strange if some lesser men know how to reach Slayer, but the new &quot;Dreadlords&quot; not. </b></font><br /><br />I still disagree.  In the latter books, it has clearly been shown that amongst some of the modern darkfriends there are cases where those who can channel are beneath those who can't.  Furthermore, the Shadow seems to operate on a need-to-know basis, and it might just be the case that none of the men who can channel who are DFs needed to know how to contact Slayer.<br /><br />  But I have a better reason than this to disagree, which goes back to the original quote, once again. So here it is, again: <i>&#8220;Few save the Chosen knew how to reach him, and none of the men among those few could channel, or would have dared trying to command him.</i><br /><br />Now, pulling this sentence apart, bit by bit.  Few except the Chosen knew how to reach Slayer, ie knowledge of how to contact Slayer is not common.  And NONE of the men among those could channel.  Note the phrase there.  It doesn't say &quot;most of those couldn't channel&quot;.  Many theories are based upon the exact words RJ uses, and in this case he has used the word &quot;NONE&quot;.  This means, I think, none.  I can't see how you can argue with this.  Furthermore, if you think a bit more about it, those who can channel probably wouldn't need to use Slayer's services, which explains why there are no male channelers amongst those few.  It has nothing to do with seniority.  Anyway, then it goes on, to add, that not only could none of those men channel, none of them would have dared to give him an order.  This is very straightforward.<br /><br />Finally, we've never seen Slayer attack anyone in a straightforward manner, as far as I can recall.  He relies on stealth and surprise.  Any channeler can be killed by a surprise attack.  Slayer does not need the ability to shield channelers. <br /><br /> As for the DO's ability to provide such a talent, I'm not convinced.  If it was supposedly so easy to do, then why don't gholam produce a stedding effect like SH.  I think SH is a very special case, and that, perhaps, the presence of the DO within SH creates a field in which connection to the OP is not possible.  <br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /> Baphomet 23 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br />Give me the strength to change the things I can, the grace to accept the things I cannot, and a great big bag of money.<br /><br />My online gallery:<br />http://daveb23.deviantart.com/gallery/<br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-11-18 01:49:44
subject: <b>Slayer - subset of the Chosen</b>
body:
Diomedes pointed this out earlier, but I thought I'd just say it again: Slayer's gifts are the ability to switch bodies, the T'A'R stuff, and the ability to command Fades and Trollocs, just like the Forsaken.  We know from RJ's recent comments that Dreadlords in the Trolloc Wars did not have this ability, they had to &quot;negotiate&quot; with the Fades to make them fight.  But Slayer, as we see in TSR, has the ability to command the Myrddraal.  What more of a gift does he need?  This in itself already places him on a level with the Forsaken.<br /><br />Slayer certainly seems limited in what he can do.  His tactics rely mainly on surprise.  IMHO, it's clear that Slayer CANNOT see people through T'A'R, in WH he paces the room in Far Madding, but sees no reflection of the people in the waking world.  Otherwise, he would have known that the people in the room were not Rand and Min.  Similarly, he fails to kill Perrin or Fain in the Two Rivers -- if he could see their reflections through T'A'R, it would be child's play to leap out and whack them before they knew he was there.<br /><br />As to this supposed ability of blocking channelers, there is little or no proof for it.  The channelers we KNOW he killed were either sheilded or unable to channel (asleep AND in Far Madding).  His encounter with Nynaeve in TSR is irrellevant because he had no idea who she was, they just rounded a corner at the same time and his lightning-fast reflexes allowed him to get the draw on her.  (Besides, Nynaeve is still blocked at this point, anyways).  <br /><br />As to his spying on the Wonder Girls in WH, Slayer comes across as pretty pathetic.  Even Temaile comments that Slayer &quot;let himself be seen&quot;.  This particular glimpse of him doesn't present him in a very positive light, IMO.  If T'A'R is his domain, why was he so easily seen?  The prohibition on killing Rand has been lifted, so it makes sense that any similar prohibition (if there was one) on killing Rand's compadres would also be gone.  If Slayer COULD shield channelers, why didn't he do so and whack the Wonder Girls instead of running away in fear?


created: 2004-11-18 09:53:11
subject: <b>A new theory-always welcome.</b>
body:
I will keep an open mind on the possibility that Slayer has the ability to shield.<br /><br />To why Slayer was created: <br /><br />This happened before the Aiel War (20+ years ago) and also before the Gholam was freed from the Stasis Box (? years ago). To extrapolate on this, it may well be that the DO felt the need for an anti-channeler at that time, because there was no way of knowing a Gholam would be found after the Breaking.<br /><br />To the much quoted reference, it seems likely that Slayer was used by non-channelers as an assassin, prior to the Forsaken breaking free. This would have been set up by Ishamael who was free prior to the Aiel War, IMHO.<br /><br />Conversely, the DO may have added extra powers at a later date, as he did for Shaidar Haran.<br /><br />Definitely a RAFO.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2004-11-18 11:12:59
subject: <b>Don't think so.</b>
body:
He's not afraid of channelers, but he's not afraid of anyone else either - someone previously referred to Verin's Warder - because he doesn't consider him doesn't mean he can turn his blade to jelly.<br /><br />It would be interesting, but don't you think it would be a bit risky? Shai'tan himself said that none were above his Chosen, and if Slayer had such an ability, the Forsaken would quite likely be submissive. It would make a good point for your Salyer killed Asmodean theory, but unfortunately, there's not enough to support it. And Slayer did not kill Asmodean.<br /><br />Someone mentioned that Slayer might be capable of seeing the realworld through T'A'R. That can't be. In his own PoV, in WH, he claimed he saw the ripples in the bedsheets, proving that someone was sleeping there in the realworld. If he could see them, he wouldn't need to see the ripples.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>War must be, while we defend our lives against a destroyer who would devour all; but I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend</i><br />~Faramir</font><p></p>


created: 2004-11-18 12:45:32
subject: <b>Many replies</b>
body:
To Diomedes,<br /><br /><b> Maybe I'm wrong, but it seems to me that this theory is based largely on the fact that Slayer thinks about receiving many &quot;gifts&quot; as opposed to receiving a single &quot;gift&quot; (ie, the ability to use TAR.) The truth is that we already know some of the other things that Slayer has received from the DO. First, the DO kept either Luc or Isam from being killed (I believe it's Luc, and I think you're pretty certain it's Isam, but the details aren't particularly important for this conversation.) Connected to that is the ability to switch from one personality to the other, which may or may not be considered a seperate gift. Finally, we also know that Slayer can command Myrddraal and Trollocs, not something the average DF can do. This could also be considered a gift from the DO. </b><br /><br />Well, I don't think that the merging of Luc and Isam (I believe Isam died and his soul was put in Luc's body) can be considered as a gift he had been given, as Slayer means in his PoV.<br /><br />Especially if you compare it to the gifts Slayer didn't received, namely immunity to poison, or any other weapon, it's clear that &quot;gifts&quot; are certain abilities. <br />Probably the merging was the condition to get any gifts.<br /><br />If Slayer can really command Shadowspawn like the Chosen, or if Ishy ordered Shadowspawn to follow Slayer, is not clear. <br />But that could be another gift, that's right.<br /><br /><br />To Jim, <br /><br /><b> If this were one of his gifts you would think he would have thought about it when he might have to try and kill Rand again. Besides, who needs to shield someone when they're already asleep as Rand was in Far Madding and would likely be again if Slayer tried again. </b><br /><br />I don't think it's so likely that Rand still stays in Far Madding when the patron gives Slayer sometime later the order to try again to kill him.<br />Nevertheless both consider this in the scene.<br /><br />This shows in my view that Slayer has no fear to try to kill Rand, even if Rand is somewhere where he is able to channel; this indicates again that Slayer has a special ability against channelers.<br /><br /><br />To baphomet23,<br /><br /><b> I still disagree. In the latter books, it has clearly been shown that amongst some of the modern darkfriends there are cases where those who can channel are beneath those who can't. Furthermore, the Shadow seems to operate on a need-to-know basis, and it might just be the case that none of the men who can channel who are DFs needed to know how to contact Slayer. </b><br /><br />If the Forsaken interfere, it might be that a non-channeler is placed higher. <br />But normally channelers are more important than non-channelers.<br /><br />And to the need-to-know basis, why should normal DF channelers don't have the need for Slayer then, but the Chosen, who are much more powerful, have the need?<br /><br /><b> But I have a better reason than this to disagree, which goes back to the original quote, once again. So here it is, again: &#8220;Few save the Chosen knew how to reach him, and none of the men among those few could channel, or would have dared trying to command him.<br /><br />Now, pulling this sentence apart, bit by bit. Few except the Chosen knew how to reach Slayer, ie knowledge of how to contact Slayer is not common. And NONE of the men among those could channel. Note the phrase there. It doesn't say &quot;most of those couldn't channel&quot;. Many theories are based upon the exact words RJ uses, and in this case he has used the word &quot;NONE&quot;. This means, I think, none. I can't see how you can argue with this. Furthermore, if you think a bit more about it, those who can channel probably wouldn't need to use Slayer's services, which explains why there are no male channelers amongst those few. It has nothing to do with seniority. Anyway, then it goes on, to add, that not only could none of those men channel, none of them would have dared to give him an order. This is very straightforward. </b><br /><br />As said, one can understand the quote in another way, namely that the last part of the sentence rules out normal male channelers as the patron, since they wouldn't dare to command Slayer, but would beg (while other men are already ruled out because they can't channel).<br /><br /><b> Finally, we've never seen Slayer attack anyone in a straightforward manner, as far as I can recall. He relies on stealth and surprise. Any channeler can be killed by a surprise attack. Slayer does not need the ability to shield channelers. </b><br /><br />As pointed out above, in critical situations, e.g. if he is hold with the OP, Slayer could need such an ability very much.<br />With it, it's more secure to use Slayer for assassinations of channelers. <br /><br /><b> As for the DO's ability to provide such a talent, I'm not convinced. If it was supposedly so easy to do, then why don't gholam produce a stedding effect like SH. I think SH is a very special case, and that, perhaps, the presence of the DO within SH creates a field in which connection to the OP is not possible. </b><br /><br />We see in the series that the DO can give his minions gifts through the TP, since most can't channel.<br /><br />The gholam was somehow changed to be immune against the OP; also SH can negate the OP. <br /><br />I don't see why the new assassin of the Shadow, Slayer, couldn't get such an useful ability, like to shield channelers, from the DO (though as I said in the theory, it'a certainly not as strong as SH's).<br /><br />It would explain Slayer's worth much better.<br /><br /><br />To AgingComputer,<br /><br /><b> Diomedes pointed this out earlier, but I thought I'd just say it again: Slayer's gifts are the ability to switch bodies, the T'A'R stuff, and the ability to command Fades and Trollocs, just like the Forsaken. We know from RJ's recent comments that Dreadlords in the Trolloc Wars did not have this ability, they had to &quot;negotiate&quot; with the Fades to make them fight. But Slayer, as we see in TSR, has the ability to command the Myrddraal. What more of a gift does he need? This in itself already places him on a level with the Forsaken. </b><br /><br />See above, also about the usefulness of a shielding ability.<br /><br /><b> Slayer certainly seems limited in what he can do. His tactics rely mainly on surprise. IMHO, it's clear that Slayer CANNOT see people through T'A'R, in WH he paces the room in Far Madding, but sees no reflection of the people in the waking world. Otherwise, he would have known that the people in the room were not Rand and Min. Similarly, he fails to kill Perrin or Fain in the Two Rivers -- if he could see their reflections through T'A'R, it would be child's play to leap out and whack them before they knew he was there. </b><br /><br />Agreed.<br /><br /><b> As to this supposed ability of blocking channelers, there is little or no proof for it. The channelers we KNOW he killed were either sheilded or unable to channel (asleep AND in Far Madding). His encounter with Nynaeve in TSR is irrellevant because he had no idea who she was, they just rounded a corner at the same time and his lightning-fast reflexes allowed him to get the draw on her. (Besides, Nynaeve is still blocked at this point, anyways). </b><br /><br />You are right. <br /><br />Still, Slayer and the patron indicate that Slayer could kill Rand, even if he is able to channel again, outside Far Madding. <br />This speaks for a special ability against channelers. <br /><br />I expect a scene in the next books where Slayer will surprise a channeler (and RJ the reader) with such an ability...<br /><br /><b> As to his spying on the Wonder Girls in WH, Slayer comes across as pretty pathetic. Even Temaile comments that Slayer &quot;let himself be seen&quot;. This particular glimpse of him doesn't present him in a very positive light, IMO. If T'A'R is his domain, why was he so easily seen? The prohibition on killing Rand has been lifted, so it makes sense that any similar prohibition (if there was one) on killing Rand's compadres would also be gone. If Slayer COULD shield channelers, why didn't he do so and whack the Wonder Girls instead of running away in fear? </b><br /><br />As I said in the theory, Slayer is certainly not as powerful as SH.<br />Probably he can shield only one channeler for a few moments.<br /><br /><br />To jofraz,<br /><br /><b> I will keep an open mind on the possibility that Slayer has the ability to shield. </b><br /><br />Yeah, I think we can't exclude the possibility.<br />Therefore I wrote this theory. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><b> To why Slayer was created: <br /><br />This happened before the Aiel War (20+ years ago) and also before the Gholam was freed from the Stasis Box (? years ago). To extrapolate on this, it may well be that the DO felt the need for an anti-channeler at that time, because there was no way of knowing a Gholam would be found after the Breaking.<br /><br />To the much quoted reference, it seems likely that Slayer was used by non-channelers as an assassin, prior to the Forsaken breaking free. This would have been set up by Ishamael who was free prior to the Aiel War, IMHO.<br /><br />Conversely, the DO may have added extra powers at a later date, as he did for Shaidar Haran.<br /><br />Definitely a RAFO. </b><br /><br />Yes, it is a RAFO.<br /><br />I agree that the gholam was still bound somewhere, when Slayer was created. <br /><br />In this case the DO would certainly like to create an almost similar dangerous assassin for the Shadow, who also has a special weapon against channelers.<br /><br /><br />To Fanatic-Templar,<br /><br /><b> He's not afraid of channelers, but he's not afraid of anyone else either - someone previously referred to Verin's Warder - because he doesn't consider him doesn't mean he can turn his blade to jelly. </b><br /><br />Channelers are basically the most dangerous characters in the WoT.<br />Therefore, if Slayer isn't very afraid of them for good reasons, it's no surprise that no one scares him.<br /><br /><b> It would be interesting, but don't you think it would be a bit risky? Shai'tan himself said that none were above his Chosen, and if Slayer had such an ability, the Forsaken would quite likely be submissive. It would make a good point for your Salyer killed Asmodean theory, but unfortunately, there's not enough to support it. And Slayer did not kill Asmodean. </b><br /><br />I think the shielding ability has limits. <br />Slayer can use it against only one channeler at the same time and probably only for a short time.<br /><br />Besides, Slayer seems to be very loyal to the DO and the Chosen (who, btw, were not already back in Randland when Slayer was created).<br />Thus I don't think it would be risky but rather useful, to give him such a gift.<br /><br /><b> Someone mentioned that Slayer might be capable of seeing the realworld through T'A'R. That can't be. In his own PoV, in WH, he claimed he saw the ripples in the bedsheets, proving that someone was sleeping there in the realworld. If he could see them, he wouldn't need to see the ripples. </b><br /><br />Agreed.<br />


created: 2004-11-18 16:29:08
subject: <b>Interesting idea....</b>
body:
And given what you pointed out about nature of the Gholam, and Shadar Haran's abilities, it does appear to be within the DO's power to give such a gift.<br /><br />I also seem to recall that Slayer made it sound as if he had killed other Aes Sedai when we got this pov in WH. We can probably surmise that these others were not shielded by someone else when he did the deed. Which does beg the questions of: who was it he killed, and who asked/ordered him to do it? <br /><br />Like Jofraz, I will keep an open mind on the subject, since there is nothing to prove nor disprove the idea. Thumbs up for originality!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2004-11-19 08:32:28
subject: <b>Thanks, Light in the Night!</b>
body:
<b> And given what you pointed out about nature of the Gholam, and Shadar Haran's abilities, it does appear to be within the DO's power to give such a gift. </b><br /><br />Plus, I think the scene with Ishy and Rand in TGH, ch.42, where the OP is apparently soaked up by the TP, might indicate this as well (of course it's an ambiguous scene).<br /><br /><b> I also seem to recall that Slayer made it sound as if he had killed other Aes Sedai when we got this pov in WH. We can probably surmise that these others were not shielded by someone else when he did the deed. Which does beg the questions of: who was it he killed, and who asked/ordered him to do it? </b><br /><br />Indeed, Slayer considers that neither Isam nor Luc got to kill an Aes Sedai very often. <br />That means in reverse that sometimes Slayer is ordered to kill an AS and was successful; it seems quite certain that these AS could channel.<br /><br />I think we can't say, though, who these AS were (BA or not), or who exactly ordered Slayer to kill them (the DO, Ishy, other Forsaken or other DF).<br />At least I can't remember that it was ever told that any AS was assassinated in the past.


created: 2004-11-19 13:55:00
subject: <b>Well...</b>
body:
Slayer could have this special gift and there isn&#8217;t anything to disprove it. However, I don&#8217;t believe he needs such a power. He already has the very special (and deadly in his case) power to &#8220;pop&#8221; in and out of TAR. I think that this &#8220;popping&#8221; power is more than adequate to deal with any channeler when they sleep. RJ has left the avenue open to give Slayer this power (or others for that matter, remember &#8220;he had been given many gifts&#8230;&#8221;?) but I would be surprised if he did give it to him. <br /><br />Like jofraz. I will (try to) keep an open mind.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" />&quot;Slayer of the dreaded fruitfly&quot;<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Ehhxxxhilennnt&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-26 22:05:06
subject: <b>much more reasonable....</b>
body:
I think its much more reasonable for slayer to ahve something like what mat has, not that shields chanellers but makes their flows disolve. It would in many cases have a better effect, seeing as a woman who has been blocked will know imeadiatly, while it may take minutes of smugness before a chenllerler discovers her weaves have disolved, and by then, is too late.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Journey to the Tiger Sea,<br />Where legends die and stories be,<br />Where royalty rise and fall,<br />And Wotmania rules them all.</font><p></p>


created: 2004-11-19 21:51:25
subject: <b>Why are you looking for what is already there?</b>
body:
The part of the Prophecies about Mat and Tuon's marriage is right there in the first part:<br /><br />&quot;Fortune rides like the sun on high<br />with the fox that makes the ravens fly.<br />(The fox that makes the ravens fly is obviously Mat. He has been likened to a fox many times, and he has a fox signet ring. &quot;that makes the ravens fly&quot; most probably means that Mat will somehow move the Seanchan to war on (on the side of the Dragon?) because the raven is a repeated symbol of Seanchan. And, of course, fortune most certainly &quot;rides..on high with Mat.)<br />Luck his soul, lightning his eye,<br />(Luck is most definately Mat's soul. As for &quot;lightning his eye&quot; that's your guess.)<br />He snatches the moons from the sky.&quot;<br />Snatching the moons (notice the pluralirity) from the sky, means that Mat is snatching Tuon away from the Seanchan. This could also mean that Mat may snatch the moons from the sky by destroying the Seanchan.<br /> <br />Well, those are my thoughts. Thought I guess you can think what you want.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Persons of the Dragon Unite!!!<br />   -Me<br /><br />No one would attack abunch of fierce goats!-Me<br /><br />Party on dudes!!!-Abraham Lincoln<br /><br />&quot;What's wrong Colonel Sanders? CHICKEN!!!&quot;-Dark Helment</font><p></p>


created: 2004-11-20 03:33:10
subject: <b>Not fair!</b>
body:
I posted the same thoery around 3 months ago, only mine was that she knew she would marry him because of the fortelling she recieved from the damane who could fortell during the journey into randland. Very unfair that mine wasn't posted and yours was since we both wrote about excactly the same points <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/frown.gif" border="0" />  (except for the who she knows it from part, where I still think mine is more logical as she punishes the damane after hearing she will marry someone not of the blood )


created: 2004-11-20 04:09:22
subject: <b>yep, i agree totally</b>
body:
mutant, your definately right. I agree that was the part talking about mat and tuaons marriage.<br />but my theory was more geared towards showing that there may be a seanchan prophecies of the dragon version that is just as correct as the version known by Noal...<br /><br />and Iden, im sorry your theory didn't get posted. <br /><br />i don't think Tuon is sure she will marry mat. yet. That is why I think she asked the question about hawkwing, to see if it was a possibility he wasn't crazy.<br /><br />im sure that the damane's fortelling will also relate to tuon's marriage, but I think there are already a few theories on that subject. So I felt it was overkill to mention it here.


created: 2004-11-20 05:29:17
subject: <b>i don't really think so...</b>
body:
I am not sure where it says it but I think that Ishy mixed up the prophecies so that the seanchan would be looking for signes that won't happen. Or atleast that are not real prophecies.  <br /><br />I also have another slight theory for ya to think about.  What if her damane (sp?) said something along these lines.<br /><br />&quot;You will be married within 1 year to a man of this land and that man will remember the face of Hawking&quot;<br /><br />Just a thought.


created: 2004-11-20 06:27:15
subject: <b>I rather believe Ishy faked the Seanchan Prophecies.</b>
body:
Thus manipulating the Seanchan, so that they return to Randland.<br /><br />Rand will certainly not bow before the Crystal Throne.<br />I believe this was probably a plot by Ishy; he wanted to achieve that by using Egwene and Nynaeve as decoy.<br /><br />Because the Randland Prophecies of the Dragon state, on the contrary, that Rand shall bind the nine moons to serve him.<br />IIRC even RJ said that we most likely won't see anymore of Seanchan.<br /><br />In WH, ch.14, Tuon (who btw, thinks that she is the Daughter of the Nine Moons; there is no doubt that she is) considers:<br /><br />&quot;Lidya had been responsible for her anger last night. No, she had caused it, but Tuon herself was responsible for her own emotions. She had commanded the damane to read her fortune, and she should not have ordered her caned because she disliked what she heard.&quot;<br /><br />and:<br /><br />&quot;Only luck had kept anyone from overhearing Lidya's cryptic words. Everyone knew that damane could foretell the future, and if any of the Blood had heard, they would all have been chattering behind their hands about her fate.&quot;<br /><br />I believe Lidya told Tuon that she will marry someone, who maybe met Hawkwing, has an ashandarei and a ring, or something like this in cryptic words.<br /><br />This would explain why Tuon was that angry about the future she heard, since she certainly also would want to choose her husband without any predestination, and why other nobles would chatter about this.<br /><br />Another point, since Tuon &quot;commanded&quot; Lidya to &quot;read&quot; her future, has she a similiar talent like Min?<br /><br />Fortellings normally occur coincidentally and can't be commanded.<br /><br />Plus, also Min <i> reads </i> the images and auras of other people. <br /><br />Of course later Tuon thinks that damane &quot;foretell&quot;  the future, and that Lidya used &quot;cryptic words&quot;. <br />This rather speaks for a real foretelling.<br /><br />Anyway, for the reasons above, I don't think that Tuon learned from the Prophecies of the Dragon that she will marry Mat, but from Lidya.


created: 2004-11-20 08:27:42
subject: <b>Tabula Rusa</b>
body:
I agree with Tabula Rusa and was going to say the same thing, when the damanae gave her fortelling to Tuon, Tuon lost her temper (which was rare) and it was to an extent that she imposed a penance on herself.  There's no doubt that she was told that she would soon meet her future husband, a roguish man who remembered Hawkwing.  My two cents...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.&quot; - George Orwell</font><p></p>


created: 2004-11-20 10:03:09
subject: <b>mat's raven's</b>
body:
i always believed that the ravens that fly are the dark ones minions. that's all i got, though. i think this is a great post.


created: 2004-11-20 11:27:14
subject: <b>&quot;Hawkwing's Face&quot; comments</b>
body:
Judging from Tuon's reaction, after Mat says (in effect) &quot;WTF?  Hawkwing's face?&quot; it was a ta'veren thing that got her to say it in the first place.  It certainly puts Mat off-balance, but Tuon is even more surprised that she said it in the first place.  Selucia probably isn't surprised because she's got that whole Tuon-can-do-no-wrong mindset.<br /><br />I'm with Etzel in the fact that Ishy mucked around with the Seanchan prophecies.  In the early affairs of the Seanchan empire, such obvious tie-ins to the Prophecies such as &quot;Court of the Nine Moons&quot; and suchlike were not immediately present.  It makes sense that Ishy had something to do with them, the Guide says he was &quot;frequently absent&quot; from the court of Hawkwing.


created: 2004-11-20 13:23:47
subject: <b>its entirely possible...</b>
body:
its possible that ish screwed with the prophecies that the seanchan know. Also very possible that Lidya's foretelling involved Mat and Tuon. <br /><br />All I was trying to do was give a reason for a very cryptic, yet important, line that I havn't seen any explanation on.<br /><br />None of this could be explained unless we either actually get to see more of the prophecies, or learn what exactly was in Lidya's foretelling. Therefore....Go THEORY POST!


created: 2004-11-20 17:01:59
subject: <b>There could be something in the prophecies</b>
body:
Tuon probably read something in the prophecies and then the foretelling was that she would be the one to fulfill them.  So my guess is that she was upset to find out that a path was chosen for her, and whatever the path is I don't imagine it's something she's terribly happy about.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">One day I'll have a quote to put you all to shame.</font><p></p>


created: 2004-11-20 19:33:12
subject: <b>As said by others</b>
body:
I too feel that Tuon's question came from the fortelling on the ship and not from the Seanchan Prophecies of the Dragon.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-11-20 21:12:18
subject: <b>Why the Seanchan prophecies are different than those in Randland</b>
body:
I believe that the you are on the right track.  But I think that the prophecies of the Dragon that the Seanchan know are different from those in Randland are for 2 reasons.  <br />One, because the Seanchan are under a dictatorship and it would be in the best interest of the Crystal Throne to tweak the original prophecies to make it centered around it(the throne).  It is a lot like the way the USSR and even the Third Reicht used to use propoganda to influence its people.  The same technique could definately be used by the Seanchan.  <br />Two, it could have started with Ishy.  He could have manipulated the royal line of the Crystal throne to change the focus of the prophecies long ago.


created: 2004-11-20 23:20:14
subject: <b>The Crystal Thrown?</b>
body:
Your theory suggests Tuon might be the DotNM? Are you sure?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">The Mofo J.A.R.<br />Head of Public Relations, Al Bum's Records<br />Lead Guitarist, Inspected by 40<br />Singer, Songwriter, multi-instrumentalist<br />Viking <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /><br />WoT addict<br />http://www.inspectedby40.com<br />First post on TP blackboard 4 times.</font><p></p>


created: 2004-11-21 00:33:10
subject: <b>She has got to be...</b>
body:
There is what TWO books left. That would have to be one book where Mat suddenly realized he doesn't really like Tuon at all. Then &quot;Ta-Da&quot; he falls in love with somebody else or in the least is somehow forced to marry somebody else. Now that would further prove This Theory in that Tuon would have to have gotten it from the prophecies and not a foretelling &quot;For Her&quot; otherwise what would it matter if somebody told her that she was going to marry a peasant.


created: 2004-11-21 01:19:52
subject: <b>Rand's kneeling.</b>
body:
We all know that Suroth has the Ter'angreal that can control Rand with Suldam assistance. They may meet soon, and Rand may yet kneel before the Chrystal throne. Would'nt that throw a wrench into things.


created: 2004-11-21 05:31:24
subject: <b>Hate to do it but i've got to disagree</b>
body:
I tend to fall into the the category of those Seanchan prophecies being a type of propaganda.  While i'm more inclined to believe it to be a result of the Blood's arrogance; Ishamael could have added a few colorful bits, but i doubt he sent those armies across the ocean for any other reason then getting those forces and a Hawkwing heir out of the way.  The preparations for the Corenn(sp?) started long before Ishamael was free again, so i'm also less inclined to believe that he is responsible for that, just willing to use them to his advantage.<br /><br />I can't remember where specifically the quotes are, (in the same place where the crystal throne is mentioned i think) it makes mention of someone reading the prophecies in Randland and believing them to be &quot;corrupt&quot; like the ones that used to be in Seanchan before Hawkwings armies crossed the ocean.  That either means that the crystal throne references are propaganda, or come from a more complete version that was available during the High Kings reign and were lost in the Hundred Year War.  Either case these prophecies can be said to really come from Randland.  <br /><br />There could be subtle references to Mat, and Perrin too i guess, in the prophecies and some of Tuon's knowledge may come from there, we know of too little of them to say but it is certainly possible and not much to say it isn't.


created: 2004-11-21 10:36:17
subject: <b>well....</b>
body:
I've always wondered why Tuon aksed Mat &quot;Do you remember Hawking's face?&quot; It seemed kind of random so I attributed it to Mat's Ta'veren forces. But maybe not. It could be a prophecy. I like the idea. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br /><br /> <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-11-21 15:22:49
subject: <b>Why?</b>
body:
why are there still questions about whether or not Tuon is the Daughter of the Nine Moons? It says she is in CoT (Egeanin or Selucia tells Mat after he says she is his wife three times).<br /><br />This theory is interesting, but I am not sure I agree. Would have to find out more...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="images/personalsmilies/33828.gif" /><br /><br /><br /><i>Ka mate! Ka mate! <br />Ka ora! Ka ora!<br />Ka mate! Ka mate!<br />Ka ora! Ka ora!<br />Tenei Te Tangata Puhuru huru<br />Nana nei tiki mai <br />Whakawhiti te ra <br />A upa ne ka up ane<br />Upane, Kaupane<br />Whiti te ra<br />Hi!</i></font><p><a href="http://in.youtube.com/watch?v=3GpTsPNwwms&amp;NR=1" target="_blank">Haka from the Good Times</a></p><p></p>


created: 2004-11-22 11:13:45
subject: <b>everything you state is stated point blank in the books.....</b>
body:
so i agree with your theory, since it is stated in the books...it says there is alternate prophecy in seanchan, it outright names tuon as the daughter of the 9 moons, and they say the the dragon must kneel to the crystal throne...lol is this really a theory?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Mat better hope Tuon is a gymnist in the bedroom...</font><p></p>


created: 2004-11-22 12:01:01
subject: <b>age of prophecies</b>
body:
The prophecies that Rand and Morraine discuss are older (written in the old tongue) than the Seanchan versions, ergo, the most unaltered.  &quot;Pulling the sword from the stone is but one prophecy, but how will he destroy his people with the leaf, bind the nine moons etc.&quot;  (citing from memory here)  This is when Rand is trying to find his path at Tear.<br /><br />There is an interesting thought here, and I am never sure if RJ meant it this way or not.  Matt has seen Arturs face, and even talked with him (at Falme) but that is not the memory that occurs to him.  He remembers Artur alive, in a battle centuries past.  My opinion is that Tuon, who is as skilled a player of the GoH as currently lives, read the frozen moment on Matt's face like a book.  <br /><br />She has heard the unknown prophecy from her damane, which we assume gave her enough information to pick out Matt before the kidnapping.  She was kidnapped because she was following Matt around, not the other way around.  At this point, she probably does not know Matt knows Rand, if fact, she still may not know.  However, she knows that she is sunk just as much as Matt does.  It leaves an interesting twist to the games that they are playing with each other.  I wonder if we will ever get a Tuon POV and whether or not she told her duenna/bodyguard (I suspect a yes here).


created: 2004-11-22 12:02:05
subject: <b>Agree with Etzel and others</b>
body:
I`m afraid you are confusing the Karaethon Cycle Prophecies with Lidya`s &quot;foretelling&quot;.<br /><br />To support this, we have Furyk Karede`s POV, in addition to Tuon`s, that all versions in Westland plus the ones in Seanchan do not mention bending knee to the Crystal Throne, prior to Hawkwing`s invasion.<br /><br />It`s my opinion that Ishamael set up the Return and changed the Seanchan Prophecy when he had Hawkwing send his heir and others to Seanchan.<br /><br />This also explains why Ishamael set up the capture of Nynaeve and Egwene, to be made Damane and shipped immediately to Seanchan, so that Rand (DR) would go there to rescue them, and fall into the hands of Semirhage/Anath.<br /><br />That plot failed, but is back in operation at the end of CoT.<br /><br />There is no evidence of any other changes for the 2 versions.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2004-11-23 05:32:50
subject: <b>Exact words</b>
body:
There are two things we have to have in mind:<br />First: The damane said something Tuon doesn't want to belive because &quot;if any of the Blood had heard, they would all have been chattering behind their hands about her fate&quot;, it has to mean that they would supouse something that would be bad, that would change her fate...<br />Second: She asked about hawkwing face, so it may have some relation... or not.<br />Well mi bet is that the damane said she was going to marry someone with the sign of the raven, or attached to the raven or something similar, it is of course Mat, but any of the blood earing it (and she in the beginig) would think in one of the properties of the blood.<br /><br />&quot;You would wed a man attached to the raven who knows the face of Hawkwing better than you do&quot;<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">How much is the butcher's bill for 300gr of ham?<br />Flashman <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/troll.gif" border="0" /><br />The big traveler...<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-11-23 14:25:38
subject: <b>kneeling/marrying</b>
body:
I belive that Rand will &quot;bind the nine moons to serve him&quot; through Toun, or by kneeling to the Crystal Throne.  Mat will marty Toun, and I believe that her question about Mat seeing Hawking came from the Dominea(sp?) fortune telling.  As to that being a foretelling I do not believe so, as it says when we first meet Toun that all dominea can read the future, so I am more inclined to believe that it is like Nayneaves listening to the wind.  Given that Rand will almost certainly be ensnared by the male adom in Kinfe of Dreams.  I believe that one of two things will happen, Perrin will rescue him after saving Faile with the seachans help, or he will be taken to kneel before the emporess, to the detrament of the seachen empire.  when naynaeve was looking at it mohogidean said that it the man would be able to take control of the link, so I believe that as he kneels before the crystal throne he will gain control of the link and the emporess will learn that sul'dam can channell.  as for the profissy i do not believe that his kneeling to the crystal throne was put in there to control the masses or by the original writers, I believe that it was put there to make a seachan emporer/emporeress of the past happy.


created: 2004-11-23 18:19:05
subject: <b>Good thinking, but I don't agree</b>
body:
We don't really know where she got the Hawkwing comment from, I think it was probably from the Damane's foretelling, but am not sure.<br /><br />Hammer posted an interesting comment on Dragonmount a while back in which he pointed out that it is likely that the Seekers, and therefore Tuon, know that the Horn was sounded at Falme (and therefore there was a Hornsounder as mentioned above)and that a male channeller was in Seanchan some months back (when Rand popped through the hole into the snow after his young lady).  Likely the Seekers, and therefore Tuon, know what Rand looked like (those people sketching the image from the Duel in the Sky--copies went to other Westland rulers).  <br /><br />It MAY be that Tuon is putting two and two together and realizes that Mat may have seen the face of Hawkwing as one of the returning heros fighting at Falme.  Of course that face might not have resembled the face of Hawkwing in life (Rand doesn't look like Lews Therin) which Mat can also remember Hawkwing's living face.<br /><br />So I feel that Tuon might be checking out info/deductions derived from more than one source.  But maybe the prophecies fit in also.


created: 2004-11-27 01:41:32
subject: <b>kneeling to the crystal throne</b>
body:
Based on everything i've read in the books, i was sure Suroth would somehow clap the necklace on rand and ship him across the sea to &quot;bend knee to the Seanchan Throne.&quot;  Two reasons being Rand's bargain with the Sea folk for use of their ships and the other because Mat saved the windfinders at Ebou Dar.  I envisioned some daring rescue across the sea, some epic naval battle written in the style of Patrick O'brian after Mat invents cannons(gunpowder and bellfounders, right?), Perrin having to save him again(Min said he would have to again), but my grand idea got shot to hell when RJ said the action would NOT move to the Seanchan continent.  So much as i'd like to agree, I'd like to think, now, that this just gets tied in with the whole miscommunication process and we all have to RAFO.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> &quot;A One that is not cold, is scarcely a One at all.&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-01-09 11:48:12
subject: <b>What if.......</b>
body:
Ok  here it goes.  What if Rand's &quot;bending knee to the Crystal Throne&quot;  is Rand bending knee to Tuon?  I mean why can't the current Emperess have and &quot;accident&quot;?  Wouldn't that make Tuon the Emperess?  And if Suroth captures him with the male a'dam and then takes him to her new Emperess not really knowing that Tuon had married one of the Dragon's best friends then that would be that for Suroth.  Mat would tell Tuon about her consorting with known Darkfriends.  Plus Rand's bending knee could be as simple as making an alliance with his old buddy Mat and his new wife.  Bending knee doesn't have to mean that he is submitting.  It could be like Kings bowing to each other.  Plus that also keeps us right here in Randland and away from Seanchan like RJ says.  Just a thought<br /><br /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" />  Stop the ride Carnie Bum!<br />    I Want OFF!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /> Grand Mistress of WHAT <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br />    WTF<br /> Empress of the world <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br /> Fyatuk the LongEared is my Pope Consort <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />I am the banana queen!!!!!<br /> <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-03-08 22:42:01
subject: <b>No different prophecies.</b>
body:
I believe that the Prophecies in seanchan and randland are the same. Everyone knows that direct translations from the old tounge have variations, isnt it possible that the copies taken by Luthair may have been in the old tounge?<br />I think they originally said something along the lines of &quot;He and the crystal throne shall be bound to serve&quot;, meaning they forge an alliance, but the scholars in both areas translated what the wanted to hear.<br />It is well known that Hawking started schools during his reign so the students may have studied the old tounge like students today study latin.<br />Additionally, i think the ravens refer to the seekers. The moons has control of them does she not? I got this from the &quot;Tower of the ravens&quot; thing on Seanchan.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">The Wotmaniac currntly known as &quot;Taint Bearer&quot;<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <i>If you ever catch on fire, try to avoid looking in a mirror, because I bet that will really throw you into a panic.</i> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Came in 13th place in the Wotmania Hunt 2005 with 3790 points!<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-11-22 20:01:07
subject: <b>only one strike</b>
body:
my biggest concern with the theory is that your only negative point against both perrin and galad is that min would recognize them... however, you're under the assumption that when she sees something in her visions, she sees everything about that image... there's no way to know that she can clearly see the face of the man in white...<br /><br />of course, i feel there's no way in shayol ghul that the man in white is perrin... i think she sees him and Faile as playthings and that she actually is very sorry about Faile being captured...<br /><br />now the thing with beslan is that he can't possibly wear white forever and the chances that berelain will see beslan during his time of mourning seems both unlikely and temporally impossible...<br /><br />the quote you stated about galad wearing white as a shroud seems to me to be a point for his being berelain's main in white because there's no reason to believe that berelain's man in white need live long... just long enough for berelain to fall in love with him and to do something important to the plot as a result of him (or his death)... finally, the physical proximity definitely works in favor of Galad being most likely to be her man in white...<br /><br />as of now, i can't agree with your theory because i just don't see the evidence... show me more ev!!


created: 2004-11-22 20:29:52
subject: <b>I agree with imfunny81</b>
body:
There is nit enough against Galad, who most people think id the man in white. Beslan is another canidate, but I still think Galad. He is closer to Berelain, and more likley. The WHITEcloak just fits perfectly.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br /><br /> <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-11-22 20:40:24
subject: <b>A few mistakes</b>
body:
First of all, RJ has a pattern with the choice of partners. Each main character is paired off with someone totally opposite them. For example-<br /><br />Mat and Tuon - Mat dislikes nobility, likes to sleep around, and is very playful, but Tuon IS nobility, would have strict ideas of proper behaviour, and is quite serious.<br /><br />Perrin and Faile - Perrin is a large, but quiet, gentle man who is just a farmer. Faile is slender, she is loud, she is tough, and she is the Queen of Saldaea's cousin.<br /><br />Following this pattern, Berelain will most likely choose someone much different from herself. Beslan and Berelain are both rulers, so they are similar. On the other hand, Galad is a whitecloak and Rolan would be gai'shain - much different from rulers. I never thought it could be Perrin.<br /><br />Also, you say Berelain is a lot older than Rand, Perrin, or Beslan, but it is quite specific in tDR that she is young, not much older than Rand.<br /><br />You say that it can't be Galad because Min would recognise him, but if she recognised the 'funeral white', she would have said 'funeral white', and not just 'white'.<br /><br />The quote doesn't even imply that she will fall in love with the man in white - it says 'fall head over heels'. Given Min's reaction - 'Some women have no shame at all', it is possible she meant something else entirely.<br /><br />You also say it is unlikely that Berelain will fall in love with a servant, but love is not an intellectual thing - she would probably deny loving a servant, but she would love him all the same.<br /><br />The quote about Galad and the shroud does not give a timeframe, so it could be that Galad will not die until the Last Battle, which could be a WoT year or more after she falls in love with him, or the dream may have been misinterpreted by everyone.<br /><br />It is not a bad theory, though. I like the fact that you considered other possibilities than Galad, Perrin, and Rolan, and you did develop your arguments, although some were slightly erroneous. Keep up the good work.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Asmodean is alive and posing as Sammael!<br /><br />Sammael <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sammy.gif" border="0" /> is Sparticus.<br /><br />No, I'm Sparticus! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /> = <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />I'm Herid Fel Reborn!!!!! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shy.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-11-22 21:33:33
subject: <b>Bravo!!!</b>
body:
A well reasoned Theory.<br /><br />Thank the Light you eliminated Perrin.<br /><br />As for Galad and the man in white-I never thought Egwene`s Dream meant a literal funeral shroud, but his WC uniform.<br /><br />Rolan was my 2nd choice before...<br /><br />Beslan came along. While reading the Theory, my first thought was of Paendrag connection, and the Seanchan, who, IMO, will continue to be the rulers of the lands they now hold after TG, under Tuon.<br /><br />This makes Beslan a very good choice for Berelain.<br /><br />I feel strongly that Perrin, with Berelain, could be in Ebou Dar after Rand is collared, drawn there by the swirling colors picture.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2004-11-22 21:57:56
subject: <b>Good Job Etzel</b>
body:
Very well reasoned.  However, I don't want to agree for two reasons (purely personal in nature, though).<br /><br />1.  Gah!  I'm sick of Ebou Dar!  RJ better not take us back there.  Overused cities got old very quickly, (as evidenced by Caemlyn, we've been there for how many books?) and I think it would only bog things down if Beslan was brought back into the story at all.<br /><br />2.  This is probably going to be one of those loose-ends.  If the next book will be dominated by Rand's capture by the Seanchan, and Egwene's WT struggle (and maybe the BT struggle too!), and then the last book will be TG, then I doubt there will be enough time for Berelain.  Unless it's covered in a single paragraph, or the last two books are 2000 pages long each.<br /><br />But that's just me.  Once again, good theory


created: 2004-11-23 04:28:52
subject: <b>Answers</b>
body:
To imfunny81,<br /><br /><b> my biggest concern with the theory is that your only negative point against both perrin and galad is that min would recognize them... however, you're under the assumption that when she sees something in her visions, she sees everything about that image... there's no way to know that she can clearly see the face of the man in white... </b><br /><br />Min can obviously most times recognize other people's faces in viewings, e.g. Elayne, Aviendha and herself (with Rand), around Thom she sees another man than Thom juggling with fire, most say she saw Thom around Moiraine.<br /><br />These examples show that normally Min recognizes a person she knows.<br />Since Min also doesn't say that she can't recognize the man, like e.g. in the viewing where Rand and another man merge, it's clear that Galad and Perrin can't be the man in white.<br /><br />Besides that, I gave other arguments, why I don't believe that Galad or Perrin is the man in white.<br /><br /><b> of course, i feel there's no way in shayol ghul that the man in white is perrin... i think she sees him and Faile as playthings and that she actually is very sorry about Faile being captured... </b><br /><br />Agreed.<br /><br /><b> now the thing with beslan is that he can't possibly wear white forever and the chances that berelain will see beslan during his time of mourning seems both unlikely and temporally impossible... </b><br /><br />Why is it impossible? <br /><br />We don't know how long Beslan would wear white. <br />It's possible that there is a custom in Ebou Dar to wear white for a month or 6 months, or whatever. <br />Also the marriage knives are worn for a long time.<br /><br />BTW, it's notable that a widow wears the knife in a &quot;white sheath&quot;, as the Guide tells.<br />Another hint that white is also the color of grieving in Ebou Dar. <br /><br /><b> the quote you stated about galad wearing white as a shroud seems to me to be a point for his being berelain's main in white because there's no reason to believe that berelain's man in white need live long... just long enough for berelain to fall in love with him and to do something important to the plot as a result of him (or his death)... finally, the physical proximity definitely works in favor of Galad being most likely to be her man in white... </b><br /><br />Of course, Galad wears white and is pretty...<br /><br />Nevertheless, in my view you can hardly explain why Min wouldn't say to Rand that Galad is Berelain's man in white since she recognizes persons in her viewings.<br />Thus Galad can't be the man.<br /><br />I think Galad's future is rather that he won't fall in love, but die.<br /><br /><br />To ems,<br /><br /><b> There is nit enough against Galad, who most people think id the man in white. Beslan is another canidate, but I still think Galad. He is closer to Berelain, and more likley. The WHITEcloak just fits perfectly. </b><br /><br />Distance is hardly an argument in a series where many people can Travel.<br /><br />White clothes of grieving fit as perfectly as a whitecloak.<br />Besides, it would explain why Min says, Berelain has no shame. <br /><br /><br />To aielyn,<br /><br /><b> First of all, RJ has a pattern with the choice of partners. Each main character is paired off with someone totally opposite them. <br /><br />Following this pattern, Berelain will most likely choose someone much different from herself. Beslan and Berelain are both rulers, so they are similar. On the other hand, Galad is a whitecloak and Rolan would be gai'shain - much different from rulers. I never thought it could be Perrin. </b><br /><br />Rand and Min or Aviendha are also not nobles.<br /><br />Besides, one can hardly say that Beslan and Berelain are such similiar in their characters.<br /><br /><b> Also, you say Berelain is a lot older than Rand, Perrin, or Beslan, but it is quite specific in tDR that she is young, not much older than Rand. </b><br /><br />I said in my theory that Berelain is some years older than Beslan (6 or 7?).<br />It's not clear how old Berelain is.<br />But if she is younger, it fits even better with my theory... <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><b> You say that it can't be Galad because Min would recognise him, but if she recognised the 'funeral white', she would have said 'funeral white', and not just 'white'. </b><br /><br />Indeed, Min would have recognized Galad or Perrin.<br /><br />Min doesn't say funeral white, but apparently recognizes the clothes of grieving, since she says that Berelain has no shame.<br />It could be considered as shameless to court a grieving man.<br /><br /><b> The quote doesn't even imply that she will fall in love with the man in white - it says 'fall head over heels'. Given Min's reaction - 'Some women have no shame at all', it is possible she meant something else entirely. </b><br /><br />Sorry, but that's nonsense, &quot;fall head over heels&quot; and the comment about shame imply of course that Berelain will fall in love with the man in white.<br />At least I never saw that anyone understood this in another way.<br /><br />What is your interpretation of this viewing then?<br /><br /><b> You also say it is unlikely that Berelain will fall in love with a servant, but love is not an intellectual thing -she would probably deny loving a servant, but she would love him all the same. </b><br /><br />I don't think that it would fit at all with Berelain's character, if she suddenly falls in love with a submissive gai'shain.<br /><br />I also don't see any plot relevance if Berelain is in love with a gai'shain.<br />It seems rather absurd.<br /><br /><b> The quote about Galad and the shroud does not give a timeframe, so it could be that Galad will not die until the Last Battle, which could be a WoT year or more after she falls in love with him, or the dream may have been misinterpreted by everyone. </b><br /><br />See my points about Galad above.<br /><br /><b> It is not a bad theory, though. I like the fact that you considered other possibilities than Galad, Perrin, and Rolan, and you did develop your arguments, although some were slightly erroneous. Keep up the good work. </b><br /><br />Thanks, I will. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br />To jofraz,<br /><br /><b> A well reasoned Theory.<br /><br />Thank the Light you eliminated Perrin.<br /><br />As for Galad and the man in white-I never thought Egwene`s Dream meant a literal funeral shroud, but his WC uniform.<br /><br />Rolan was my 2nd choice before... </b><br /><br />Thanks! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><b> Beslan came along. While reading the Theory, my first thought was of Paendrag connection, and the Seanchan, who, IMO, will continue to be the rulers of the lands they now hold after TG, under Tuon.<br /><br />This makes Beslan a very good choice for Berelain.<br /><br />I feel strongly that Perrin, with Berelain, could be in Ebou Dar after Rand is collared, drawn there by the swirling colors picture. </b><br /><br />Yes, I think as you and many others, that an important part of the plot in KoD will happen in Ebou Dar.<br />Thus it's very likely that Berelain will meet Beslan.<br /><br /><br />To AgingComputer,<br /><br /><b> Very well reasoned. However, I don't want to agree for two reasons (purely personal in nature, though). </b><br /><br />Thanks, though personal reasons are difficult to argue...<br /><br /><b> 1. Gah! I'm sick of Ebou Dar! RJ better not take us back there. Overused cities got old very quickly, (as evidenced by Caemlyn, we've been there for how many books?) and I think it would only bog things down if Beslan was brought back into the story at all. </b><br /><br />Well, I'm sorry to say this, but I think with the Seanchan head quarters there, it's more than likely that the city Ebou Dar will be the stage for important developments in KoD.<br /><br /><b> 2. This is probably going to be one of those loose-ends. If the next book will be dominated by Rand's capture by the Seanchan, and Egwene's WT struggle (and maybe the BT struggle too!), and then the last book will be TG, then I doubt there will be enough time for Berelain. Unless it's covered in a single paragraph, or the last two books are 2000 pages long each. </b><br /><br />I think it won't take long. <br />RJ will simply mention Beslan in white and let him meet Berelain. <br />Then a few hints which indicate that both feel something for each other, and the viewing is fulfilled.


created: 2004-11-23 07:01:58
subject: <b>I had never considered this....</b>
body:
But I really do think it's a viable option. For one thing, it would ally two nations together through marriage, which actually happens in real life situations. The fact Mayene is a minor coastal nation with a choke-hold on oil, makes them a good match with a major port like Ebou Dar and Altara, for after TG.<br /><br />Plus, it seems Berelain is destined to eventually come face-to-face with the Seanchan, Tuon most likely, because of her ties to Hawkwing. So I do envision her in Ebou Dar at some point.<br /><br />We have already seen that Lord Darlin's stewardship of Tear has matched him with Caroline Damodred, an ex-powerful house, and will lead to his eventual Kingship there.<br /><br />Lord Dobraine currently holds the same position in Cairhien, supposedly holding it for Elayne. But she is so embroiled with troubles in Caemlyn that it's questionable she will ever rule anywhere but Andor. (Besides, she is associated with Rand, and therefore Illian, too.) This of course led to all the speculation about Galad eventually ruling Cairhien, as his father had hoped. (There and Andor, IIRC.) <br /><br />Given Galad's boyscout nature, I don't see him ruling that type of country, or any for that matter. It looks as if he is stuck with the White Cloaks, a once noble ideal, and it appears to be his job to return them to its beginnings, IMHO.<br /><br />Given the match-up games that RJ might try, I wouldn't be too surprised by your idea, or to see Dobraine and Alliandre end up together, either.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2004-11-23 09:47:15
subject: <b>Still think it's Galad</b>
body:
Although going just by evidence it's impossible to say Beslan is any less (or more) likely.  Still, I have three reasons for staying with Galad.<br /><br />Aielyn made a very good point above about opposites being brought together in the series.  Who could be a more humourous mis-match with Berelain than an overly-serious Whitecloak?  They will each frustrate the other to no end.<br /><br />Min's wording (&quot;make her fall head over heels&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> suggests to me that the man in white will be someone Berelain would NOT choose on her own.  I expect her to reluctantly fall for this man.  RJ has demonstrated Galad's effect on women multiple times in the series, and it's easy to imagine a woman being swept away by his beauty.<br /><br />Both Galad and Berelain are currently in love with or pursuing someone who is unavailable.  The shared frustration could be something that ultimately brings them together.<br /><br />A further thing to consider is that Min never mentioned whether or not the man in white would share Berelain's feelings.  Of course, this doesn't make it more or less likely that the man is Galad, Beslan, or Rolan.<br /><br />Note that I won't even consider Perrin as a possiblity.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Veteran of the Butcher's Yard <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Remember Eben Hopwil <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-11-23 11:19:36
subject: <b>Frankly, I don't want another Ebou Dar</b>
body:
I'm tired of this city and I don't want more Ebou Dar and I don't care about Beslan. Besides Galad must end up with someone otherwise he will cause more trouble.


created: 2004-11-23 13:34:34
subject: <b>Not Beslan</b>
body:
In TDR Mat is wandering around the stone and its says of his meeting with the first that she discounted him as being too much like herself, and in CoS (I think thats the one anyway) we see that Mat and Beslan are very similar, if anything Beslan is more like Berelain than Mat, I am in the group supporting Galad.


created: 2004-11-23 14:39:10
subject: <b>Plot relevance of Rolan as the Man in White</b>
body:
You say it has none - you don't see one.<br /><br />I disagree - it would have a lot of relevance and tie together a few things in an interesting way.<br /><br />I'll try to explain :<br /><br />- Faile is planning her own rescue<br />- Rolan is likely to provide her some help<br />- Rolan has made Faile gai'shan and has an inner debate about this. Sevanna &quot;stole&quot; Faile from him.<br />- Rolan has some interest in Faile, perhaps attraction or affection, perhaps frienship or perhaps just empathy for her situation. Hard to tell yet, but Faile seems to believe she has found an hook.<br /><br />- Berelain has no real interest whatsoever in Perrin except perhaps some growing friendship. Beside this, I sense in Berelain a true desire to serve the Light because it is right, as well as a desire - also very present - to serve the DR for political, and Mayener, motives.<br />- Perrin is merely the object of a challenge between Berelain and Faile.  Faile knows very well Berelain merely wants to bed her husband to win the contest - and that's it. Berelain, who seems to consider it cheating to win Perrin while Faile is away, offered to Perrin to postpone the challenge until Faile is back - as if she believes Faile has explained to Perrin the challenge. Perrin, who has not been told what's going on, misunderstood and refused her offer.<br /><br />So, I believe Rolan is the resolution to the Faile-Berelain conflict, and one heavily tainted with irony and humour.<br /><br />To keep it simple I won't include Perrin's role in this (I speculate he might be a &quot;wolf&quot; at that point or recuperating from such an ordeal, because the battle of Maldon has raged before he could put his plans in motion and he believes Faile was killed).<br /><br />I believe Rolan will bring Faile back to Perrin's party - they escaped before the battle began or found a way to hide in the aqueduct system. To clear his honor Rolan will swear himself as Faile's gai'shan, perhaps because Perrin's WOs will decide this is what honor and obligation requires, because of what he has done to her (I know, it's not according to Aiel custom, but neither was his fault of capturing and making gai'shan a non-Aiel). There is most likely not enough classic gai'shan clothing for Rolan in Perrin's camp - he will put on whatever white clothing can be found - and I think this is why Min did not recognize him as an Aiel in her viewing.<br /><br />Berelain will notice Rolan's interest in Faile and the contest between Faile and her, in which Perrin is merely an object, will transfer to <i>Rolan</i>. Faile might well play that game to fool Berelain. The irony is that Berelain will fall madly in love with Rolan, <i>for real</i> - and Rolan will probably ignore her because his honor requires it. It will be in Faile's hands.<br /> <br />I'm not sure how this would end, but I guess Faile, who will no doubt have grown up a lot from her recent experiences, may show some magnanimity and tell Berelain that maybe she understands now how she, Faile, feels.<br /><br />Quite frankly, I don't think any other man in the plot would fit for this purpose of tying together the &quot;conflict&quot;. That Berelain just drops everything because she falls in love with someone totally unrelated to Faile is extremely unsatisfactory to me - it's as if this plotline had been all for naught, and Jordan has put to much effort in it not to have a relevant ending in mind.<br /><br />Not that Beslan and Berelain wouldn't be a good match, but I really see nothing tying the Perrin and Ebou plot together.<br /><br />I believe Beslan's future role, as part of the underground resistance in Ebou Dar, will be to provide Tuon and Mat with inside help and information in KoD and he will get his revenge for his mother just like Mat will get it, because the gholam will strike during Rand's rescue, perhaps even snatching an eye from Mat while Mat is killing it by keeping the medallion in contact with its skin long enough to destroy the monster.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="images/personalsmilies/30778.gif" />Wheel of Time Reference Library : Articles, maps, charts and misc.<img src="images/personalsmilies/30778.gif" /><br /><br /></font><p><a href="http://13depository.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">The Thirteenth Depository - a Wheel of Time Blog</a></p><p></p>


created: 2004-11-23 17:37:05
subject: <b>Gotta be Galad</b>
body:
I would have to disagree with your theory.  Here is why:<br /><br />&#8220;Galad wrapping himself in white as though putting on his own shroud&#8221;.<br /><br />This was foretold right before Galad became a whitecloak.  That is what the foretelling was about, everybody (at least the main characters with Aes Sedai bias) feel like the whitecloaks are just as bad as darkfriends.<br /><br />I personally believe it is Galad, he has the lineage, he has the skills, he has the looks and he basically has the correct attitude to be a ruler.  He does what is right and just regardless of whom it hurts.  The majority of people could live with that.  Plus he has his own sense presence which can keep Berelain in check while complementing her skills.<br />To be honest, I think there should be more about Galad.  He is a great character that got a bad wrap from the beginning because of Elayne. He could be the best blade around, they said he had a quicker mind for strategies and warfare while training with the warders.  His only hang up is that Elayne won&#8217;t give him a break. I think it would be cool to have Berelain fall in love him, and somebody finally take her down a few pegs, she needs it.<br /><br />About Rolan:<br /><br />&#8220;The problem is that Berelain is a person who prefers powerful and important men. After all, Berelain is a noble. That she would fall in love with a servant seems very unrealistic.&#8221;<br /><br />If ended up with Rolan it would be poetic justice. Plus you got to take into consideration that he supposedly looks allot like Rhuric who acts like Berelain&#8217;s daddy.  Some woman find that kinda attractive, or so I have heard.<br /><br />Also, say Rolan saves Fail, Moragase, and the other queen.  He will now be part of Perrin&#8217;s group close to Berelain. It could happen!?!<br /><br />About Perrin:<br /><br />There is not any way that Perrin could ever end up with Berelain.  It is not part of his character given the history they have.  So whatever reason you give is good enough.<br /><br />About Beslan:<br /><br />You give a half way good argument.  But he will be a ruler of Ebou Dar and she has Mayene.  That alone should make them incompatible.<br />


created: 2004-11-23 18:38:25
subject: <b>Probably not</b>
body:
Interesting imaginative theory that has opened up some thinking on the subject.<br /><br />My objections?  Mainly the intuition that Beslan isn't a match for Berelain.  It's not so much that she is older (she's not by much)or more mature but rather she is so much more experienced as a ruler.  She is tougher.  Also, where does it go; how does it develop the plot?<br /><br />Galad is the obvious foil.  Two gorgeous people, one skilled at political manipulation, the other intelligent but straightforward and dutibound to a fault.  The obvious place for Galad would be as regent or ruler of Cairhien for his sister; but he doesn't seem well adapted to playing the game of houses.  Berelain, on the other hand ....  The skills of each are complementary; and the honesty could be exciting to her having lived in, and survived in, a swamp of duplicity her whole life.<br /><br />Still, I'm not entirely convinced of the Galad-Berelain match.  It's too easy.  Jordan is too tricky.<br /><br />I guess we'll have to RAFO


created: 2004-11-23 23:41:08
subject: <b>I like it, but not enough to say yes.</b>
body:
Beslan is too dangerous for Berelain. She needs a man she either count on to stay perfectly balanced, or to play the game as skillfully as she does. If a man is unbalanced, he can be toppled, pulling her down with him. If he doesn't plot well, he's useless as her partner.<br /><br />Galad though, would work, IMO. He's so balanced he's practically flat. I doubt he could plot well, but he'd be good for her armies... except she already has that guy who's fanatically devoted to her.<br /><br />Rolan, I think, would work too. If, somehow, Faile manages to escape, and then one of Perrin's Aiel takes the man as gaishain, then he'd be serving while he's around Berelain. She'd see the fire in his eyes when she ordered him to act like a servant for her, and she'd be intrigued, and try to toy with him. When his year and a day were up, he'd be after her like ... analogies fail me.<br /><br />That's just my opinion though.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Warder to Be'lal's Girl<br />Wotmania Lottery<br /><br /><br /><br />&quot;Meh. A good relationship is like fireworks: loud, explosive, and liable to maim you if you hold on too long.&quot; ~ Sven, Questionable Content<br /><br />Bonded by Sidious. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-11-24 06:30:39
subject: <b>Replies to the comments</b>
body:
Thanks to all who replied so far! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> <br />I want to adress the counter-arguments:<br /><br />To Nameless Ashaman,<br /><br /><b> Aielyn made a very good point above about opposites being brought together in the series. Who could be a more humourous mis-match with Berelain than an overly-serious Whitecloak? They will each frustrate the other to no end. </b><br /><br />As Light in the Night pointed out, also Darlin and Caraline, both nobles, will marry.<br />So, there are examples that not only opposites come together in the WoT.<br /><br />Besides, it would be ironical, too, if Galad, the most beautiful man, doesn't get any woman in the end.<br />It would show that the personal qualities count more.<br /><br /><b> Min's wording (&quot;make her fall head over heels&quot; suggests to me that the man in white will be someone Berelain would NOT choose on her own. I expect her to reluctantly fall for this man. RJ has demonstrated Galad's effect on women multiple times in the series, and it's easy to imagine a woman being swept away by his beauty. </b><br /><br />But not any woman is truly in love with Galad, although he looks so pretty.<br /><br />I think a grieving Beslan could catch Berelain's heart as well.<br /><br /><b> Both Galad and Berelain are currently in love with or pursuing someone who is unavailable. The shared frustration could be something that ultimately brings them together. </b><br /><br />Don't think that Galad is really in love with someone.<br /><br />Anyway, after his mother's death, also Beslan is certainly in a situation where he could need a partner like Berelain.<br /><br /><br />To AlgSpkr,<br /><br /><b> In TDR Mat is wandering around the stone and its says of his meeting with the first that she discounted him as being too much like herself, and in CoS (I think thats the one anyway) we see that Mat and Beslan are very similar, if anything Beslan is more like Berelain than Mat, I am in the group supporting Galad. </b><br /><br />I think his mother's death and his coronation will change Beslan and make him more mature and meditative. <br /><br /><br />To DomA,<br /> <br />Interesting thoughts as always.<br /><br />Nevertheless, it's clear that at the point when Berelain falls in love with her man in white (whoever he is) the conflict with Faile &amp; Perrin will be solved.<br /><br />I believe that Faile will be rescued and the Shaido defeated quite quickly in KoD.<br />Perrin will be overjoyed, and Berelain will realize that she has no chance (if she actually still wants Perrin).<br /><br />After that, Perrin &amp; his party will travel to Ebou Dar since Perrin learns (through the ta'veren connection) that Rand is in great danger, and that he has to try and rescue him.<br /><br />In the end, I believe the three ta'veren will all come together again in Ebou Dar, and the Seanchan will be bound by them.<br />Anyway, I believe Berelain will meet Beslan in Ebou Dar and fall in love.<br /><br />As I pointed out in another reply RJ can make this happen very quickly, just a few hints are needed (e.g Berelain blushe when Beslan makes a compliment , or something, like this). <br />On the other hand, your suggestion for the solution seems quite longer (Berelain must learn of Rolan, court him, talk to Faile etc., etc.).<br /><br />I also believe &quot;it makes much more sense for the pattern&quot; (so to speak), especially for the time after TG, that Beslan and Berelain fall in love, than Berelain with a normal Aiel.<br /><br /><br />To Sampson,<br /><br /><b> This was foretold right before Galad became a whitecloak. That is what the foretelling was about, everybody (at least the main characters with Aes Sedai bias) feel like the whitecloaks are just as bad as darkfriends. </b><br /><br />The word &quot;shroud&quot; indicates that Galad will die as a result of becoming a WC.<br /><br /><b> I personally believe it is Galad, he has the lineage, he has the skills, he has the looks and he basically has the correct attitude to be a ruler. He does what is right and just regardless of whom it hurts. The majority of people could live with that. Plus he has his own sense presence which can keep Berelain in check while complementing her skills.<br />To be honest, I think there should be more about Galad. He is a great character that got a bad wrap from the beginning because of Elayne. He could be the best blade around, they said he had a quicker mind for strategies and warfare while training with the warders. His only hang up is that Elayne won&#8217;t give him a break. I think it would be cool to have Berelain fall in love him, and somebody finally take her down a few pegs, she needs it. </b><br /><br />As said, I believe Galad will die. <br /><br />Plus, it would be ironical and meaningful if he doesn't get any woman.<br /><br /><b> If ended up with Rolan it would be poetic justice. Plus you got to take into consideration that he supposedly looks allot like Rhuric who acts like Berelain&#8217;s daddy. Some woman find that kinda attractive, or so I have heard.<br /><br />Also, say Rolan saves Fail, Moragase, and the other queen. He will now be part of Perrin&#8217;s group close to Berelain. It could happen!?! </b><br /><br />It could happen, but I believe Beslan makes more sense, since this would connect two countries.<br />Therefore I believe, contrary to you, that Beslan will be King, makes him very compatible.<br /><br /><br />To Reptile,<br /><br /><b> My objections? Mainly the intuition that Beslan isn't a match for Berelain. It's not so much that she is older (she's not by much)or more mature but rather she is so much more experienced as a ruler. She is tougher. Also, where does it go; how does it develop the plot? </b><br /><br />I believe it will be good for Beslan to have a woman like Berelain as his Queen, especially for the time after TG where the Westlands have to be rebuild.<br /><br /><b> Galad is the obvious foil. Two gorgeous people, one skilled at political manipulation, the other intelligent but straightforward and dutibound to a fault. The obvious place for Galad would be as regent or ruler of Cairhien for his sister; but he doesn't seem well adapted to playing the game of houses. Berelain, on the other hand .... The skills of each are complementary; and the honesty could be exciting to her having lived in, and survived in, a swamp of duplicity her whole life.<br /><br />Still, I'm not entirely convinced of the Galad-Berelain match. It's too easy. Jordan is too tricky. </b><br /><br />Yub. Galad is too obvious, not RJ's style.<br />Beslan is a surprise.<br /><br /><br />To Phelix,<br /><br /><b> Beslan is too dangerous for Berelain. She needs a man she either count on to stay perfectly balanced, or to play the game as skillfully as she does. If a man is unbalanced, he can be toppled, pulling her down with him. If he doesn't plot well, he's useless as her partner. </b><br /><br />Well, I think Beslan's character will change and Berelain simply fall in love.<br /><br /><b> Galad though, would work, IMO. He's so balanced he's practically flat. I doubt he could plot well, but he'd be good for her armies... except she already has that guy who's fanatically devoted to her.<br /><br />Rolan, I think, would work too. If, somehow, Faile manages to escape, and then one of Perrin's Aiel takes the man as gaishain, then he'd be serving while he's around Berelain. She'd see the fire in his eyes when she ordered him to act like a servant for her, and she'd be intrigued, and try to toy with him. When his year and a day were up, he'd be after her like ... analogies fail me. </b><br /><br />Look above for my reasons against those two.<br /><br />


created: 2004-11-24 17:32:37
subject: <b>Time...</b>
body:
Etzel :<br /><br />Where our &quot;predictions&quot; differ completely is that I don't believe the Maldon situation will be resolved quickly in KoD at all - or be resolve so happily. I think it's only gonna just grow worse and worse. I believe Perrin is set for a failure. Not matter what he does the &quot;blacksmith puzzle&quot; won't solve itself, and worse, it's going to become more and more intricate as new players join in. A nightmare. I believe the Masema situation is gonna go out of control as well - and the Seanchan 15,000 won't give a hoot about Perrin's wife being a prisonner. I believe an &quot;accident&quot; will happen and a bloodbath will ensue. I think it's quite possible Masema has tipped Suroth about Perrin and the Shaido and Moridin has decided to get rid of both parties that way and destroy a few thousands of Seanchan at the same time (he don't want <i>those</i> to escape his traps and fight for the Light - their job is to leash the AS and deliver them to the Shadow - as soon as it's done they Seanchan will become targets of the Shadow as well). I don't rule out either that the darkhounds <i>were</i> after Perrin and the Shaido, in the sense that they were mere <i>scouts</i> because Moridin wanted a very fair assessment of the situation before committing himself (Masema, who I believe to be a Chosen pawn, is really way too insane to be trusted, IMHO).<br /><br />My prediction is that Perrin will become quite crazy because he believes Faile is still in the middle of this disaster and rush desperately into the battle after Aram (also going crazy in his bloodlust) while Berelain tries to stop him for sacrifying his life for absolutely nothing &quot;Rand needs you Perrin!!!!&quot;, falling down the metaphorical cliff at last and turning himself to wolf in his despair. When Faile finally shows up at the end of the book Perrin, in chains or cage, won't even recognize her. It's gonna take the wolves and her love to eventually bring him back - and possibly help from Healers. I think this will be one of the cliffhangers of KoD, another might be Rand not being rescued yet or Egwene about to be executed.<br /><br />Faile's rescue has been well set up in CoT - and it may come from within the Shaido camp - it might even bring Galina the viper along - so that eventually Rand will show her he no longer have any problem killing evil women (it would be a shame if Galina dies in the battle of Maldon without coming back to TV - there's just too many characters waiting for a life face-to-face with her, such as Pevara).  <br /><br />Now the twist is that either this set up or Perrin's &quot;puzzle&quot; is some sort of red herring that won't be the true rescue but will be used to show how desperate things are becoming. I decide to pick Perrin's puzzle as the red herring, and Faile-Rolan and the aqueducts as the true rescue. It's pretty much flipping a coin, and it derives from my belief that KoD is gonna be the darkest book of all...<br /><br />I disagree the &quot;Rolan&quot; set up would take too much time, however - this &quot;man in white&quot; thing doesn't have to get resolved before the very end of book 12 and might actually provide a little bit of comic relief in a set of two very gloomy books.<br /><br />I see another problem about Beslan.  Nobles marry in other countries all the time, to make alliances.  Two acting <i>rulers</i> never do that.  Beslan can't rule Mayene from Altara and vice-versa. There are laws against this in most monarchies anyway (that's the case in Andor/Cairhien as NS showed - Taringail had to lay down his claim to the Throne to marry Morgase). <br /><br />That Faile wins the contest by default because Berelain falls in love and gives up is one of the resolutions I would personally consider unsatisfactory - and it's way too close to the foreshadowing for comfort. Jordan always gives it a twist, it's never exactly as it seems. <br /><br />We agree Galad will most likely die - I think he will sacrifice himself to save someone when he realize how the WK have used him, how his &quot;mother&quot; would have needed him, how his half-sister needed him etc. To clean his honor Galad will do what is &quot;right&quot; and get himself killed.  I would add Beslan to the mix, however - I think he would make a good martyr.  Jordan needs to kill many secondary characters in the two last books (and it's no wonder he kept so many alive over the 10 books - he has all he needs to turn this to a slaughterhouse soon) and Beslan, like Tylin, has been made just sympathetic enough for us to care about his fate. He's not the only one in the cast, there are many others like him.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="images/personalsmilies/30778.gif" />Wheel of Time Reference Library : Articles, maps, charts and misc.<img src="images/personalsmilies/30778.gif" /><br /><br /></font><p><a href="http://13depository.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">The Thirteenth Depository - a Wheel of Time Blog</a></p><p></p>


created: 2004-11-24 22:44:03
subject: <b>I still doubt it</b>
body:
First, I never said that the difference was always nobility in my counterargument. Each of the pairings in the series involve opposites, including all three of Rand's pairings:<br /><br />Min - He channels, she doesn't. She loves knowledge (reading Fel's books), he just wants to get things done. He is the dragon reborn, but she is just an ordinary woman - nothing special about her. etc.<br /><br />Aviendha - He's a wetlander (although of Aiel blood), she's Aiel. She hated him when they first met. He intends to save the world by any means necessary, she, like the Wise Ones, wants to save the Aiel. etc.<br /><br />Elayne - She was Daughter-Heir, he was a farmboy. He learnt to channel on his own, she was taught. etc.<br /><br />As for the argument about Min recognising Galad, I am still not convinced that she always recognises people. She may have simply seen a man covered in white, covered so even his face was not visible. She also fails to name Moiraine (assuming that was who it was) in her thoughts when she has the vision about 'a woman who dead and gone'.<br /><br />It is quite a jump to assume that she would not say 'funeral white', and then make a comment of it being shameless. Besides, Min says she will fall 'head over heels', but never says she will chase him. How is it shameless to fall in love?<br /><br />I actually believe that she WILL fall in love with the man in white, but that does not make it right. I can see that others COULD see it another way, perhaps literally falling somewhere, like down a hill, because he frightened her.<br /><br />The point is, most of the characters fall in love with someone not fitting their character. It is not in character for Darlin, a Tairen, to fall in love with Caraline, a Cairhienin, given the mutual animosity of the two nations.<br /><br />DomA made a good point regarding the plot relevance of Berelain and Rolan. It is very possible that this is what RJ is leading up to with that plot line. An additional possibility forms, with the brotherless following Rolan, which resolves the danger of the Shaido to Rand.<br /><br />Additionally, Beslan is not a good choice, because he would be ruling Ebou Dar, grieving his mother's death, trying to fight the seanchan secretly, and being courted by Berelain, all at once. This seems a lot for a (currently) minor character. Add in Berelain saying Mat was not her type, and Beslan being like Mat, it seems unlikely.<br /><br />It is more likely that Berelain will pair with Galad, and then end the fighting between the whitecloaks and the seanchan because the is effectively 'of the blood', being descended from hawkwing.<br /><br />All of this doesn't prove that you are wrong, however. You could still be right.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Asmodean is alive and posing as Sammael!<br /><br />Sammael <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sammy.gif" border="0" /> is Sparticus.<br /><br />No, I'm Sparticus! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /> = <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />I'm Herid Fel Reborn!!!!! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shy.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-11-25 05:24:48
subject: <b>Response</b>
body:
To DomA,<br /><br />I think it's likely that the Shaido conflict will end bloody.<br /><br />But I rather believe that Perrin will destroy the Shaido and then hurry to Ebou Dar; that seems to be overdue before TG. <br /><br />Of course I'm also not sure how he will achieve it exactly, considering their number of channelers (as I pointed out at the WoT MB a while ago, Balwer and his possible knowledge of forkroot could be important).<br /><br />I also agree that Rolan's relevance could be that he rescues Faile.<br /><br />However, I don't see why Berelain should fall in love with him later.<br />Beslan seems to be a much better match in my view.<br /><br /><b> I see another problem about Beslan. Nobles marry in other countries all the time, to make alliances. Two acting rulers never do that. Beslan can't rule Mayene from Altara and vice-versa. There are laws against this in most monarchies anyway (that's the case in Andor/Cairhien as NS showed - Taringail had to lay down his claim to the Throne to marry Morgase). </b><br /><br />Well, we see that Mayene can apparently survive quite good without its ruler for a long time. <br />Berelain doesn't seem to care much about Mayene anymore (since you mentioned it, I wonder who actually rules there at the moment...).<br /><br />Therefore I don't see why Berelain couldn't be Queen of Altara (with much more power &amp; prestige), and Mayene a dependency, so to speak. <br /><br /><b> That Faile wins the contest by default because Berelain falls in love and gives up is one of the resolutions I would personally consider unsatisfactory - and it's way too close to the foreshadowing for comfort. Jordan always gives it a twist, it's never exactly as it seems. </b><br /><br />Frankly, I found this conflict always quite tiresome. <br /><br />I think at the latest when Perrin and Faile see again, Berelain will realize that she doesn't have a chance.<br />Then a bit later, she will fall in love with Beslan in Ebou Dar<br /><br />I don't see why Berelain should tranfer her attention to Rolan, just because he fancies Faile.<br />Seem very childish. <br />Probably also Faile wouldn't care at all, if she has Perrin for her own.<br /><br /><b> We agree Galad will most likely die - I think he will sacrifice himself to save someone when he realize how the WK have used him, how his &quot;mother&quot; would have needed him, how his half-sister needed him etc. To clean his honor Galad will do what is &quot;right&quot; and get himself killed. I would add Beslan to the mix, however - I think he would make a good martyr. Jordan needs to kill many secondary characters in the two last books (and it's no wonder he kept so many alive over the 10 books - he has all he needs to turn this to a slaughterhouse soon) and Beslan, like Tylin, has been made just sympathetic enough for us to care about his fate. He's not the only one in the cast, there are many others like him. </b><br /><br />Yub, Galad will most likely die.<br /><br />But Beslan's role is in my opinion that he will be another young ruler, who will build again after TG (together with Berelain).<br /><br /><br />To aielyn,<br /><br />As I said, I believe Beslan's character changed during his experiences.  <br /><br />Also the ta'veren changed very much in a short time; maybe Berelain would consider to take Mat now.<br /><br /><b> As for the argument about Min recognising Galad, I am still not convinced that she always recognises people. She may have simply seen a man covered in white, covered so even his face was not visible. She also fails to name Moiraine (assuming that was who it was) in her thoughts when she has the vision about 'a woman who dead and gone'. </b><br /><br />It's clear that Min knows who the woman is, otherwise she couldn't know that she is dead and gone.<br />Or what image do you think saw Min around Rand? <br /><br /><b> It is quite a jump to assume that she would not say 'funeral white', and then make a comment of it being shameless. Besides, Min says she will fall 'head over heels', but never says she will chase him. How is it shameless to fall in love? </b><br /><br />In my view Min apparently means that it is shameless to court a man who is grieving, since that is what Berelain would certainly do, if she falls in love with this man.<br /><br /><b> I actually believe that she WILL fall in love with the man in white, but that does not make it right. I can see that others COULD see it another way, perhaps literally falling somewhere, like down a hill, because he frightened her. </b><br /><br />Oh, well, I suppose maybe <i> someone </i> could think that...<br />Anyway, then the shameless comment makes no sense at all.<br /><br /><b> Additionally, Beslan is not a good choice, because he would be ruling Ebou Dar, grieving his mother's death, trying to fight the seanchan secretly, and being courted by Berelain, all at once. This seems a lot for a (currently) minor character. Add in Berelain saying Mat was not her type, and Beslan being like Mat, it seems unlikely. </b><br /><br />Berelain could help him very much.<br /><br /><b> It is more likely that Berelain will pair with Galad, and then end the fighting between the whitecloaks and the seanchan because the is effectively 'of the blood', being descended from hawkwing. </b><br /><br />Well, I think we will simply read and find out. <br />In my view, Beslan is much more likely for the reasons I pointed out.<br /><br /><b> All of this doesn't prove that you are wrong, however. You could still be right. </b><br /><br />Yes.<br />Above all, I just wanted to make a case with this theory for someone I consider at least as likely to be the man in white, as the other candidates who were mentioned, namely Beslan.


created: 2004-11-25 13:03:37
subject: <b>And again...</b>
body:
Nice discussion.<br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>But I rather believe that Perrin will destroy the Shaido and then hurry to Ebou Dar; that seems to be overdue before TG.</b></font> <br /><br />Ah, this is where we differ - I think Perrin will totally miss this rendez-vous, that it is part of the cliff (A recurring Dream that was a warning to Perrin not to follow Aram's example in his grief and lose himself in it). Min had a viewing that Perrin would be greatly needed twice near Rand, and that it would be very very bad situations. One was Galina &amp; co - merely an appetizer and Rand got freed a couple of chapters later. The second encounter where Rand might face women who channel is rather obviously Semirhage - and this time it won't be resolved so easily as Dumai's Wells or else leave a been there done that feeling. <br /><br />The viewing was not telling that Perrin would be there, nor that things would be fine even if Perrin was there - just that it would be really bad if he wasn't. Again, this was a warning Viewing and the thing certain to happen is the &quot;bad thing&quot;. A warning that was not heeded, much to Min's worry.<br /><br />Another foreshadowing is the dismissive way Perrin treated the Colors in CoT.<br /><br />I believe Rand and Perrin will pay the price for all this in KoD. In the end, Mat might have to pay a high price too, for being the sole &quot;savior&quot;. If he litterally loses an eye, I think it's gonna related to Perrin's absence in a way.<br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Of course I'm also not sure how he will achieve it exactly, considering their number of channelers (as I pointed out at the WoT MB a while ago, Balwer and his possible knowledge of forkroot could be important).</b></font><br /><br />The forkroot in the water system. I don't see how this could be - it's very unrealistic - though I guess the possiblity might be raised as a red-herring. But the logistic is totally unworkable - it's no small village with a well, cisterns or a trickle from an aqueduct. Not only it would be nearly impossible to taint with forkroot such a vast amount of running water (just imagine the amount of forkroot tea that would need to be brewed.. and the amount of forkroot needed period), but forkroot also has effects on non-channelers. There is no way enough people would drink the tainted water before the alarm was raised that it's been poisonned. No way. Sevanna would send scouts, find Perrin and attack.  I don't see any other way Perrin could poison 500 WO efficiently - there just isn't one.<br /><br />I believe Berelain's role in KoD will be two-fold. First she will discover and reveal very threatening information about Masema and the Seanchan that will complicate Perrin's dilemna. He should go and warn Rand - but he won't, nor will he agree to let the Asha'man go. Secondly, when the Seanchan approach, Berelain will make a daring and risky attempt to gather their help or delay battle because she is a Paendrag. It won't work, because of Masema or because of Suroth's orders. The 15,000 Seanchan change nothing in the end - they won't be more able to free the prisonners without a bloody battle.  I believe many characters will die in this battle, such as Aram and the Queen of Ghealdan (thus Ghealdan will fall in Perrin's hand as the Queen's overlord - half of Manetheren already).<br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>However, I don't see why Berelain should fall in love with him later.</b></font><br /><br />Well, he's got the built she likes. Frankly, I don't see why she would fall in love with an Aiel warrior either but weird couple are the trend in WoT... The first Prince of Andor and an innkeeper's daughter, the Daughter-Heir and a farmboy, Mat and the Seanchan heiress - weirdest of all, Bryne &amp; Siuan, Nyaneve and Lan, a blacksmith and a woman in line for the Saldaean Throne etc.  The fact Beslan is a good match is most likely a big strike against him! Same for Galad the Martyr.<br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Well, we see that Mayene can apparently survive quite good without its ruler for a long time. <br />Berelain doesn't seem to care much about Mayene anymore (since you mentioned it, I wonder who actually rules there at the moment...).</b></font><br /><br />Berelain still cares a lot. Her whole service to the DR is first and above all a gamble to make sure he won't give Mayene to Tear - and it still is. He promised her he wouldn't, but Berelain also wishes for real to fight for the Light. Mayene's fate is always in her mind, she still worried Rand would forget her and his promise.<br /><br /><br />I believe Jordan gave the answer to the ruling in absentia. Mayene is quite a bit like Venice. Anyway, the answer is that the Second Lord or Lady of Mayene rules the Lords' council in her absence according to her instructions. It can't go on forever like this, though.<br /><br />Annoura, who was in contact with the First, probably advised the Council before her departure. The position of First Lord is hereditary in Berelain's House, the highest  in Mayene because they are Paendrag descendants.<br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Therefore I don't see why Berelain couldn't be Queen of Altara (with much more power &amp; prestige), and Mayene a dependency, so to speak.</b></font> <br /><br />Mayene would almost certainly depose her in favor of the second House rather than risk to become a dependancy or principality - and that's assuming Berelain wouldn't simply step down to spare this to her proud native land. <i>She</i> fought fiercely for its independance too after all.<br /><br />The whole history of Mayene was a fierce and proud struggle to maintain its independence from its bigger neighbours - and they are very very proud of this. I don't believe they would give up their independance and agree to let the position of First pass to the Mitsobar heir of Berelain and Beslan, King or Queen of a Foreign country. Beslan would probably have to marry into House Paeron and adopt the Paendrag surname for Berelain to keep her position or she would have to officially renounce to Mayene or name her closest Paeron relative be her heir instead of her son/daughter.  Beslan could marry into Paeron, but this would make him a foreign lord in Altara, where his House barely held to power before the Seanchan arrived.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>I think at the latest when Perrin and Faile see again, Berelain will realize that she doesn't have a chance.</b></font><br /><br />Berelain already knows she doesn't have a chance, but her &quot;honor&quot; is at stake. She knows Perrin loves Faile deeply. The whole point of the exercice is to seduce him and bed him, or come close enough, to show to Faile that she can bed any man, and thus win the &quot;challenge&quot;.<br /><br />You see, I believe <i>Faile</i> issued the challenge, not Berelain, so certain was she that Perrin would never fall for Berelain's tricks. Faile probably insulted Berelain and claimed a cheap whore like her could never seduce a man in love with Faile - that a man who love her have much better taste than that - that she could make a man so taken with her that he wouldn't even look at Berelain.  That's why she is so furious Perrin doesn't just ignore Berelain. That's why Berelain herself doesn't give up unless Faile admits that Perrin finds her attractive. That's why Berelain offered, out of compassion, to put it all on the ice until Faile returns - because she likes and even begin to admire Perrin and he has nothing to do with her contest with Faile. He's just a victim.<br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Then a bit later, she will fall in love with Beslan in Ebou Dar. I don't see why Berelain should tranfer her attention to Rolan, just because he fancies Faile.<br />Seem very childish. <br />Probably also Faile wouldn't care at all, if she has Perrin for her own.</b></font><br /><br />Well, I believe childishness is precisely the point. It is a totally stupid, annoying and childish contest - always was.  And, given the way Perrin reacts and the way he finds absolutely no pleasure in the &quot;game&quot; (other men would have), it's a pretty mean contest for the two women to continue - but both are too stubborn and too proud to give it up.  I believe Berelain might transfer her attention on Rolan for several reasons. First, she will notice that Rolan fancies Faile and so he becomes a target eligible for the game. Then I believe Berelain will do it to win the contest and prove her point, and finally she will transfer it to Rolan out of compassion for Perrin.  If it wasn't for her pride that prevents her from admitting defeat, Berelain would have given up long ago - she's a nice girl.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="images/personalsmilies/30778.gif" />Wheel of Time Reference Library : Articles, maps, charts and misc.<img src="images/personalsmilies/30778.gif" /><br /><br /></font><p><a href="http://13depository.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">The Thirteenth Depository - a Wheel of Time Blog</a></p><p></p>


created: 2004-11-28 12:52:37
subject: <b>It's a very interesting theory</b>
body:
I don't agree with it though.  I agree with DomA that plot relevance of pairing Berelain with Beslan seems uncertain to me.  Actually, I think the same about pairing Berelain with Galad, too.  I'd also agree with some of the BB posts above that question whether Beslan would really wear white for mourning, and whether Berelain would fall in love with while he was wearing white.  Those two things seem like pretty big assumptions to me.<br /><br />All of that has been covered, however.  I think the biggest assumption that I question is the idea that Min would recognize Perrin as the man in white.  You base this on the fact that Min recognizes the people she knows in her viewings.  I have to point out, however, that almost all of Min's viewing are solely about the person, or people, that are right in front of her.  Of the handful of viewings that do relate to a person that is not immediately present, only Min's viewings about Gawyn and Egwene <i>The Truth of a Viewing</i> encompass someone that she knows.  That can be fairly easily explained, however, since Gawyn has expressed his concern for Egwene to Min.<br /><br />Basically, I don't think that Min has any reason to associate Berelain with Perrin.  She hasn't witnessed those two together, and doesn't know anything about the relationship between hawk and wolf.  While we don't know what the custom is for mourning in Ebou Dar, we do know for a fact that Two Rivers folk don white for mourning.  <br /><br />Finally, RJ uses some interesting descriptive language that could be foreshadowing at the very beginning of <i>Customs</i>: &quot;From the first hour after being captured, laboring through the snowy woods, Faile worried about freezing.  Breezes stirred and died, stirred and died.  Few of the scattered trees still carried leaves, and most of those hung dead and brown.&quot; <br /><br />I usually sit and take notice when an author repeats a phrase, and I think this could be a foreshadowing of Faile's doom.  While I'm not entirely sold on that course of events, I have to say that I find it much more likely than Berelain and Beslan ending up together.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Diomedes <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-11-29 19:25:14
subject: <b>Wow! What a fabulous lot of discussion!</b>
body:
Nice idea, Etzel!  I voted 'yes' before I read the discussions.  Remind me not to do that again *chuckles*.<br /><br />Beslan is still a possibility, but I like the 'Rolan as another pawn in the Berelain/Faile challenge,' and possibly the last one.  One very big theme in this series is balance - and that has a nice ring to it, with everybody (possibly) happy at the end.  Happy - well, once things settle down, perhaps.  I'm also getting the distinct impression that KoD is going to be downright nasty, and break a lot of the 'rules' RJ has followed to this point.<br /><br />Berelain does seem to like a muscular figure (while Beslan is slender), and has already expressed interest in someone with Aiel colouring (okay, he's the Dragon Reborn, but...)<br /><br />Rolan isn't a nobody, either - he's someone the Mera'din acknowledge as their leader, in a society (using the word generally, not Aiel-specifically) where rank depends heavily on perceived merit.<br /><br />Wondrous discussion!  You're always good for theories that do that, Etzel.<br /><br />Branwhin <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />


created: 2004-11-30 20:39:24
subject: <b>Beslan? Isn't he dead by now?</b>
body:
Isn't Beslan the guy who hates the Seanchan so much that he is planning a rebellion.<br /><br />KoD Page 232. Juilin entered the wagon with a grim look on his face, 'Rumours say of a battle in Ebou Dar itself. Turns out the new King called for a rebellion. His head is now on the walls with all the other rebel leaders'<br /><br />A joke of course, but would his mothers death change him so much?<br /><br />Interesting how many people believe Berelain is a love at first sight person rather than the attraction, knowing them, attachment, falling in love phase which 99.99% of us go through?!?!?<br />


created: 2004-12-02 05:38:14
subject: <b>MIn's Viewing - a side topic</b>
body:
I don't believe that Min always recognises people in her viewings unless all the people concerned are together at the same time.  In Baerlon Min saw that she would fall in love with Rand and have to share him with two other women, this comes out when Elayne declares her intentions about Rand, but not through Min recognising her. I don't think Min knows that Berelain is Perrin's hawk although she knows Berelain.<br /><br />Min was in a position to view Moraine and Thom together in Baerlon and Siuan and Gareth Bryne together in Salidar, also Caraline Damodred and Darlin together, I don't believe that Min not recognising the man in white is proof that it can't be Galad or Perrin or anyone else she knows.<br /><br />Rolan - an admirable candidate would have to be taken gai'shan - not impossible,  also I have never taken Galad's shroud as being literal - it could just as easily be resignation on Galad's part as things he as always believed proved false ie The White Tower treatment of his sister.


created: 2006-04-09 17:42:35
subject: <b>wow</b>
body:
If I weren't just as obsessed about WoT as all o you I would be scared by how much discussion can be generated over a single comment.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/w00t.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Masria Sedai of the Brown Ajah<br />The Zaftig Cat Girl<br /><br />http://serpentinepoet.proboards107.com/index.cgi</font><p></p>


created: 2006-04-11 19:08:00
subject: <b>seriously</b>
body:
If galad doesn't die soon he must be berelains man in white because he's just too much of a problem walking around single. think about all the fangirls....<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Masria Sedai of the Brown Ajah<br />The Zaftig Cat Girl<br /><br />http://serpentinepoet.proboards107.com/index.cgi</font><p></p>


created: 2006-07-06 23:42:39
subject: <b>Am I seriously the only one...</b>
body:
who didn't think that Rand would be held prisoner in Ebou Dar by Semirhage? Guess it was kind of good that I didn't even know about wotmania.com until I finished KoD. Anyway, as of KoD I'm pretty sure the belief that Perrin/Rolan could be the man in white is dead as Perrin now has Faile back(yay!) and Rolan was killed by Perrin. Beslan was a good idea, but now I see no reason as to why Berelain would be in Ebou Dar, and thus it all falls apart. Seriously love that no one argued the &quot;fact&quot; that Rand would be captured by Semirhage though, kinda goes to show that it is not smart to assume anything in the wotworld. I mainly didn't consider it because I always that that Rand was kinda smart, at least compared with idiots like Egwene who did not even disguise her flows and is now being beaten every day... serves that arrogant wannabe right. Sorry about this long post... and I am well aware that this theory is pre KoD. I'm just trying to point out that just because all foreshadowing etc seems to support something like the Rand in Ebou Dar idea, doesn't mean RJ has to do it. I've seen lots of &quot;facts&quot; that no one has argued with on here by going over older theories which were really just assumptions, I finally decided to comment on one. Anyway great idea Etzel, it shows thinking outside the box. I doubt Galad is the man in white as well, mainly because of what I just stated above... not always best to assume things.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Egwene must die.<br />Rand Al'Thor will face her wrath...<br />And laugh in her face!</font><p></p>


created: 2004-11-22 20:24:40
subject: <b>I like it</b>
body:
It explains why Cyndane is weaker in strengh! I like it. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br /><br /> <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-11-22 20:35:45
subject: <b>I don't like it.</b>
body:
Why then not create the super-puper male channeler and super-puper female channeler? Then you don't have to worry about LLT or any other Aes Sedai from AoL. It absolutely doesn't make sense that if DO can manipulate strength of One Power he would stop at such small pocket change as increase a little some Forsaken strength, and not all of them at that. Also, why suddenly make Lanfear the strongest and not Semmy or Grany? Or all of them equal the strongest? No, I don't like that theory, because it tries to solve one-two problems in favor of creating thousands more.


created: 2004-11-22 21:04:24
subject: <b>No question re men`s benefits</b>
body:
And I like the part of boosting the women.<br /><br />As you state, the DO was able to do this only a little bit. However the makeup of the channeling apparatus, it is shown that Healing bridged a gap.<br /><br />Therefore, thinking of the connection as a finite size, then it is understandable that stretching the access would be limited.<br /><br />All in all, a well reasoned Theory.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2004-11-22 22:13:48
subject: <b>I was wondering when this would become a theory</b>
body:
Very well written, Linda_sedai!  It's certainly plausible and viable.  However, I disagree for a couple of reasons.  <br /><br />First, the poster above me is right, this would give the DO and his minions an incredible advantage.  Think of it this way:  Rand and Moridin are supposedly tied in OP strength.  Don't you think the DO would give his most trusted servant every advantage?  Such a boost, even a small one, would give all the Forsaken an incredible advantage over whomever they faced, and I find it hard to believe that the DO would pass something that good up.<br /><br />Second, there is no real proof for this theory.  The points that you gave can be argued either way.  First, the quote by Rand is definitely no proof.  He has only seen the black cords on the men, he has no reason to say that they are on the women too.  As it says in the quote, he's <i>taunting</i> Lanfear.  Second, the Lanfear quote, in my mind, argues that it was something that the Ael/Eelfinn did that reduced her strength.  Clearly she wasn't stilled, but I think the *finn could do something like this.  They were able to make Mat appear on Avendasora with a noose around his neck, without actually entering the real world.  Who knows what they are capable of?<br /><br />In conclusion, I think that the relative strength of OP channelers is one of the fundamental aspects of the Creator's world that the DO cannot tamper with.  The fact that Aran'gar is the same strength proves nothing, it just shows that the channeling ability is linked to the soul.  Since the DO grabbed the soul before it could go to wherever souls go, he could put it wherever he liked.<br /><br />Well written theory, just can't agree.


created: 2004-11-23 04:58:49
subject: <b>Bribes and punishments</b>
body:
Interesting theory.  Obviously he does bribe his followers - with the promise of immortality (though, see RJ's comments on how reliable that promise is).  I wonder though whether he needs special inducement to keep the female forsaken loyal; after all it's women - Moggy and Cyndane - who are in mindtraps (is there another mindtrap?  I can't remember).  Also, the comment about the cleansing of the source and male loyalty seems a typical forsaken taunt (they do enjoy stirring!).  So, it's not necessary that the DO gave them that as a bribe, he might have done it more to keep his top men useful - rather than gibbering timebombs.  Anyway, I think it's in his style to keep people in line with punishments and threats (and a distant carrot-on-a-stick promise of immortality - after all, what reward do most darkfriends get?)


created: 2004-11-23 07:54:19
subject: <b>I see the black cords as more than filters for the men....</b>
body:
When Rand makes the statement to Lanfear, he says: &quot;you Chosen allow the DO to attach himself to you.&quot; He isn't singling out just the males, and Lanfear doesn't try to correct him, nor does Asmo. Therefore I see the cords on both male and female Forsaken, for several reasons.<br /><br />For one, it lets him know where they are at any given time. (This would explain how Shadar Haran knew Mesaana didn't show up at the Cleansing. Unless you think him or Moridin were hiding in the bushes to see if they all showed up. As far as we know, the ones that did show up didn't say anything about seeing the others, and they didn't work together.) <br /><br />If one dies, he knows immediately, not because he is Lord of the Grave, but because the connection is broken. This gives him time to grab their souls for transmigration if he so decides.<br /><br />Access to the True Power. Unlike the One Power that is all around them, this is not so for the TP. It comes directly from the DO, and it makes sense that if you are connected to him, then you can access his power. Otherwise, I don't see how it could be done.<br /><br />As to the Finn, I find it rather unlikely that they have powers that supercede the Creator or the DO, the two most powerful entities in the universe. Certainly if the Finn can make someone more or less capable of handling the One Power, then the DO or the Creator should also. <br /><br />Like Jofraz pointed out, the connection is a &quot;bridge&quot;, and as such, some are weaker or stronger than others. To me, it makes sense that these bridges can be given extra strength, or made weaker. Taking into account that they occasionally drew the TP straight from the DO, a stronger connection could even be required.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2004-11-23 08:10:47
subject: <b>What about before?</b>
body:
If this is true then what would have men received before the DO tainted Saidin?<br /><br />No I think Graendal's comment was more out of nervosity.It's common knowledge that the Forsaken have their own agenda and rarely cooperate.As long as there was the taint,the men could not afford disobeying the DO too much,wich left the women with more freedom to act.Now that Saidin has been cleansed,the men have more freedom wich could go against some of the women's plans,especially Graendal who likes her comfort and does not want to be found in her new identity.


created: 2004-11-23 11:29:06
subject: <b>Light of the Night, here is a problem</b>
body:
We never saw a cord around female Forsaken. Not when Moggy and Nynaeve battled, not when BA confront Moggy and she taught them a lesson. Not during Cleansing. Notice that Nyanaeve was able to see Moggy channeling, but she have not noticed the cord. I don't think that DO need a cord. Otherwise, during War of Power the Forsaken would be very noticable by other Aes Sedai, don't you think?<br /><br />The cord thing appeared after male Forsaken woke up from the Bore. It was needed to protect them. That's it. There is no reason for female protection at all. They are tight to him anyway.


created: 2004-11-23 13:09:49
subject: <b>Hmm...</b>
body:
I think the theory belongs to the realm of the possible, but I don't think it is right.<br /><br />I agree Graendal was under shock and might not have reflected on this properly at the time, but Demandred also reflects on this issue later and he ruled out (wrongly), contrary to his first belief, that Cyndane was Lanfear because when they discussed this issue between them Mesaana objected that Cyndane was weaker than Lanfear was (I'm paraphrasing).<br /><br />I would find it more than a bit curious that neither Demandred nor Mesaana, who both are extremely interested in figuring out if Lanfear is back or if the DO is making new Chosen, would not consider the possibility that Lanfear has been punished and not granted her OP boost.  I guess the only option left would be that Mesaana lied purposefully to Demandred and the OP boost was succesfully kept secret by the women. I doubt it's the case.<br /><br />The partial shield option you refer to at the end is interesting, because Cyndane is apparently forced to tell all the truth to Moridin, SH and the DO, and this partial shield, just enough to hurt her ego but not enough to impair her service to the Nae'blis, would be an extremely fitting punishment for her given what the DO must have learned about Asmodean's so-called &quot;treachery&quot;.<br /><br />In the end I believe like LitN that all the Chosen are Marked and tied to the DO, but I'm inclined to believe the protection from the taint has nothing to do with ensuring the men's loyalty. It is something the DO had to do to ensure his male Chosen wouldn't go crazy before TG. It's a scarecrow Graendal, ever the mind manipulator, pull out of a hat to frighten the men -  and this worked so well that none of them objected that the women did not have such a damocles sword over their head.<br /><br />As I believe that the &quot;Tea Party&quot; was in part a staged event by Moridin and the cleansing was also in part a test of the Chosen's loyalty - I don't rule out that Graendal was asked by Moridin to put that idea in Demandred's mind.<br /><br />There is one thing that is not considered enough regarding the male Chosen's loyalty : Asmodean had to cut (well... with some help) his tie to the Dark One to betray.  The men have only Asmodean's choice or loyalty if they don't want to be cut by the Master, go crazy and die. If saidin is cleansed they no longer have this problem and the fact saidin can possibly be cleansed can be construed as a temptation. If they don't make all the necessary efforts to stop Rand from doing it, or if Rand cleansed saidin and it is not possible to ascertain afterward that the men did everything they could to stop this from happening - if only in order to get rid of their necessity to have the DO's protection - something the women don't have, then the DO may well doubt their loyalty. I guess the Chosen may also fear Moridin or Shaidar may the judge of that, the procurer who will bring their case to the DO.  In fact, it is a bit like a test, as if the Dark One was asking the male Chosen, do you really trust me to the point you put your lives in my hands, or will you jump at this opportunity to be rid of these shackles I've put on you to save you?<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="images/personalsmilies/30778.gif" />Wheel of Time Reference Library : Articles, maps, charts and misc.<img src="images/personalsmilies/30778.gif" /><br /><br /></font><p><a href="http://13depository.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">The Thirteenth Depository - a Wheel of Time Blog</a></p><p></p>


created: 2004-11-23 13:47:23
subject: <b>It is wrong</b>
body:
I cannot believe that a boost was givin to the forsaken, male or female due to the fact that Nyanaeve defeated Moggy.  I think that if the DO could boost their power Moggy would atleast beat Nyanaeve as we have see several others who out strip her.


created: 2004-11-23 14:02:27
subject: <b>I stand corrected....</b>
body:
<b>From [ACOS book signing, Dunwoody, Georgia; 9 October, 1996, report by Erica Sadun], &quot;Access to the TP is a matter of wanting it and the Dark One letting you. NOT black cords.&quot;</b><br /><br />I wasn't sure when I posted earlier whether or not RJ had definitively stated the black cords allowed access to the TP. Apparently he did some time back according to this quote.<br /><br /><b>Another suggestion is that the presence or absence of the threads could be used to identify male Forsaken. Unfortunately, this is not the case. The black cords are only seen/sensed under very special circumstances. Rand has only seen them in two places--T'A'R and the in-between space used for Skimming. Note that Rand has seen male Forsaken without seeing the cords: Aginor and Balthamel at the Eye, Be'lal in the Heart of the Stone, Moridin in Shadar Logoth, and Dashiva/Osan'gar on many occasions. Furthermore, he doesn't ALWAYS see the black threads when he's in T'A'R with a Forsaken--he never saw them on Rahvin. So, the black threads are not a reliable way to identify Forsaken under any circumstances, even those under which the threads have been seen in the past.</b><br /><br />Both of these statements are from the WOTFAQ. It is not proof the female Forsaken are or aren't attached by cords to the DO. It only goes to show that the cords are not a reliable way to find Forsaken, and that Rand is the only one to have seen them on three separate occasions.<br /><br />To DomA:<br /><br />I agree that the filters were to keep the males from going mad, too. While it may not have originally been intended as an inducement for their loyalty, it is nevertheless an effective one. <br /><br />As for the Tea Party, it is rather evident that it was a test of loyalty for the men. Demandred notes that the scene is an outdoor type of setting, which he thought strange since Graendal was supposedly the first to arrive and chose it. The lack of all the female Chosen being present and the topic discussed lets us in on the ploy. Plus Moridin gives Osan'gar a subtle threat, saying it's a good thing he had never considered a method to cleanse the taint.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2004-11-23 14:09:23
subject: <b>Still black cords are not matter of access to TP</b>
body:
LitN, you provided a quote: &quot;From [ACOS book signing, Dunwoody, Georgia; 9 October, 1996, report by Erica Sadun], &quot;Access to the TP is a matter of wanting it and the Dark One letting you. NOT black cords.&quot; That means black cords are not matter of TP access.


created: 2004-11-23 15:00:11
subject: <b>Re:Skeeve the Great</b>
body:
That was why I said &quot;I stand corrected&quot;. After it was  posted, I realized my reply was worded wrong, but you can't edit BB posts. <br /><br />I meant to show that RJ had addressed this issue and said the black cords do not give access to the TP, that's why I provided the quote. I took the time to go find it because I remembered RJ saying something about it.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2004-11-23 15:08:26
subject: <b>Re: Light of the Night</b>
body:
Sorry, I haven't noticed the subject of your message. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/frown.gif" border="0" />


created: 2004-11-23 15:33:53
subject: <b>To LitN</b>
body:
Wow, it's rare we agree on the interpretati of the great lines of a scene with the Chosen! Nice <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />I think it's clear Graendal did everything she did and said everything she said with the purpose of unsettling the men -whether she was instructed to do it is less obvious.<br /><br />The setting she chose that gets on Demandred's nerves and that he sees as untypical of her, her little show with dropping her cup as if she was surprised - which didn't fool Demandred - he knew she knew beforehand and that might actually have been her real purpose when she did it, the psychological games about loyalty.<br /><br /> Moridin comes up at the best possible point in the conversation, as if he was listening and waiting for the right moment to interfere. His toying with Cyndane in the way he did also greatly suggests calculation - as if he was revealing without revealing it that Cyndane is mindtrapped and forced to obey, IMO, and so was his little show of &quot;insanity&quot; with the rat as if he was daring Demandred to see this as a weakness in the Nae'blis and an opportunity to disobey the upcoming orders.  All this makes me believe Moridin staged all of it and the Cleansing was the last test to see who he and the boss would let die, who would prove too weak and die and who would live to see the Day of Return. I believe Semirhage, about whom I think the DO and Moridin have no doubts - was spared due to her too important mission.  I'm a bit undecided whether Moridin or the DO used Graendal's great skills as a manipulator at the Tea Party (Graendal who made her obedience to Moridin recently) or if it was a matter of coincidence.  I tend to believe the former is the most likely.  I'm still undecided whether the Dark One really cared <i>that much</i> about the Cleansing. Clearly, he didn't care enough to allow the use of the TP, nor would he risk loosing the Nae'blis to stop Rand - nor risk his Seanchan plan or unveiling large armies of Shadowspawn. Personally I believe a little more that the Cleansing comes so late in the game that the Dark One didn't really care - and this aloofness and overconfidence in the plans will come back to haunt the Shadow when the AS and &quot;Logain's faction&quot; escape the traps Moridin has designed for them.<br /><br />I believe we are not done yet with the aftermath of the Cleansing.  Mesaana got severly punished (I speculate she is either mindtrapped or forced to assume all the time her disguise as an AS - and that she will present herself that way to Alviarin and tell her she must consider her as one of the BA from now on). I'm undecided about Demandred, and whether Moridin will see or not what he is planning. <br /><br />The comment by Moridin to Aginor suggests to me that as a punishment he was not granted protection from the taint until he proves himself and therefore he was more tempted to devise a way to remove it than the others. Belthamel, I think was simply &quot;punished&quot; by putting him in a female body, though in fact it had nothing to do with it and all with the necessity of putting a female spy in Salidar. Still, Aginor believes it is a display of the DO's cruelty and this too suggests <i>he</i> too was punished in some way.<br /><br /><br />Finally, I believe Moghedien or Cyndane, one, the other or both, may soon be freed of their mindtraps for the role they played at the Cleansing.  If Moridin observed it, however, I guess Moghedien will remain trapped for sitting it all out while Cyndane did take risks and will be freed.  If Cyndane was partly shielded by the DO or not granted a boost I guess this is when we will learn the truth about it too - no doubt she will beg to get this corrected now that she prove herself.<br /><br /><br /> <br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="images/personalsmilies/30778.gif" />Wheel of Time Reference Library : Articles, maps, charts and misc.<img src="images/personalsmilies/30778.gif" /><br /><br /></font><p><a href="http://13depository.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">The Thirteenth Depository - a Wheel of Time Blog</a></p><p></p>


created: 2004-11-23 17:25:51
subject: <b>Osan'gar -- taint protected?</b>
body:
Hmmm... interesting thought that Osan'gar was not protected by the Taint as punishment.  This brings up the speculation of what WERE Aginor and Balthamel's orders at the Eye?<br /><br /><b>Drain the Eye</b>  Possibe, but unlikely.  Moiraine said that the Eye was there for a particular purpose, and I doubt that purpose was to destroy a Trolloc army, but look at what Aginor uses the Eye for.  He uses it to renew his body (which raises an interesting question.  Could he not do this with the saidin the DO filtered?  Do the black cords restrict the saidin used in some way?)  If Ag/Balth's orders were to drain it, why hadn't Ishy done it over the 3000 year interval?  Perhaps because he couldn't FIND it before -- the Aes Sedai put in an anti-Forsaken ward or something.  Ag/Balth could only get in because of the Shadar Logoth dagger.<br /><br />It certainly looks like Aginor violated the DO's orders, at least to an extent, at the Eye.  &quot; 'Now that I have found what I need' -- his eyes went to the stone archway...' &quot; (TEOTW, paperback ed., p750)  What Aginor needed was the Eye, not what the DO needed.  It looks like only the pure saidin in the Eye could heal Aginor's body.  This would certainly lessen the DO's power over him.<br /><br /><b>Kill Rand</b>  Unlikely, because Ishy could have whacked Rand at any time in his dreams throughout the entire book.  So Ishy's trying to turn Rand at this point, not kill him.  I'm one of the proponents that Ishy is NOT, and never was, mad.<br /><br /><b>Bring Rand to Shayol Ghul</b>  This is very likely, especially if Ishy's cycle was ending and could only communicate with people at Shayol Ghul or in T'A'R.  He sent Ag/Balth because he couldn't do it himself.  This option is also supported by what Aginor says:  &quot;We know the one we seek, now, and there is no more need for the rest of you.&quot;  (TEOTW, p749 )  And later, he says &quot;Ba'alzamon will give rewards beyond mortal dreaming for the one who brings you to Shayol Ghul.&quot; (TEOTW, p755 )<br /><br />So did they fail?  Balthamel seems to have failed miserably -- he got himself killed by a plant.  It looks like Aginor was using the Eye for his own purposes, to renew his body, as well.  This could warrant punishment when they were reincarnated.  Indeed, Aginor goes as far as to think about violating Ishy's orders, when he says &quot;What difference if you serve the Great Lord of the Dark alive or dead? ...Why should I share power with you?  Why should I bend knee to you?&quot; (TEOTW, p755 ) So Aginor thinks about killing Rand, when Ishy told him to bring Rand to Shayol Ghul.<br /><br />This would make sense, in hindsight.  Balthamel died, but didn't really betray the DO... he was just stupid.  I agree with DomA that Balthamel's new female body is just for convenience.  But Aginor, on the other hand, was about to kill Rand and possibly used the Eye to help himself when he shouldn't have.  This would definitely warrant punishment.<br /><br />However, the one time we get an Asmodean POV, he comments that saidin is like &quot;sewage&quot; without the protection.  In Osan'gar's POV, we get nothing of the kind.  Maybe it's just RJ not giving us any more info than we need to know.


created: 2004-11-24 10:05:30
subject: <b>Interesting thoughts</b>
body:
Graendal was the correct choice for the Tea Party, I doubt it was coincidence. The whole scene reeked with pre-planned undercurrents. Having part of it presented from Demandred's pov was brilliant too, IMO. It let us see that he had already considered the loyalty issue if the taint was removed, he spotted Graendal's over-acting role and involvement, he showed concern that Mesaana might be forging off on her own, and gave us a little insight into his ambition as well. (With his thoughts of usurping Moridin.) We finally got a chance to see why he was considered such a great general and tactician, picking out all these details.<br /><br />Whether or not Mesaana is indeed mind-trapped as many expect, RJ may have just layed the groundwork for Demandred's demise. Obviously he doesn't blindly trust her, but one way or another, I see trouble brewing from this. Will she betray him in some fashion because she's mindtrapped, or will his doubts about her trustworthiness cause him to go against her, even though she isn't? At some point this alliance that everyone knows about, is going to fall apart, and I think the first piece has been chipped away.<br /><br />Interesting idea about Osan'gar not being granted protection from the taint. It might have helped carry out the role of Dashiva, but would certainly have risks, too, when you consider how fast the taint overcomes some of the asha'man. Channeling only when necessary would minimize the exposure, though. OTOH, his pov when he gets his new body does show that he wasn't well-pleased, either: &quot;An ordinary face, and he had always hated being ordinary&quot;, might prove to be that this was his only punishment.<br /><br />I don't know about Cyndane being freed from her mind-trap, either. Lanfear was definitely a loose cannon, and I have my doubts that Moridin or the DO would allow her the chance to foil their plans at this late stage. However, I do think she will find a way to interfere that will be devastating to the Shadow, and end in her death. <br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2004-11-24 12:44:33
subject: <b>Original theory</b>
body:
And it provoked an interesting discussion!<br /><br />Your idea would smartly explain Lanfear's OP strength loss. <br /><br />We know that the DO can give his servants certain gifts through the TP and thus change them. <br />It's possible that he can also change the part of the soul or body which defines the OP strength, of course with some restraints.<br /><br />On the other hand, I have doubts like some others.<br /><br />I'm especially not sure what benfit the DO would have, if he reduces or shields Lanfear's strength.<br />After all, due to the mindtrap, Lanfear is now under control (and the mindtrap is already one of the worst punishments).<br />If I were the DO, I wouldn't reduce Lanfear's strength, but use her full potential.<br /><br />I ever believed that Lanfear burned out when she fell through the Doorway with Moiraine. <br />This explains why the Finn could held Lanfear, although she is a strong channeler. <br />After Lanfear died somehow and was reincarnated, her ability to channel was just imperfectly Healed by a Forsaken.<br /><br />Anyway, if you are right, also Alviarin could get such an OP boost, after she already received the mark, since she is pretty weak compared to the Forsaken.


created: 2004-11-24 17:12:40
subject: <b>There is a major problem here</b>
body:
The theory is very original.<br /><br />However , I think Demandred's comment about Cyndane disproves the theory. He clearly thought that Cyndane was Lanfear until Mesanna told him she was weaker. Therefore ...<br /><br />1. Demandred has put the possibility out of his mind<br />2. Mesanna never mused about the possibility that Lanfear's gift was retracted.<br /><br />If Demandred and Mesanna never consider the possibility , then I think its safe to say that it is not the reason for Cyndane's strength reduction.<br /><br />Apart from this , the taint on saidin was not always present. The males now require protection and this is a new development. Therefore the female's boost in power would be new too , and none of them has ever mentioned an increase in their strength. I especially think that Graendal would have mentioned it by now with all her thoughts on challenging Sammael and her comments on Cyndane. Graendal's comments on Cyndane also make it seem as if Graendal is commenting on her AOL strength which has not changed.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">A One Power researcher<br />Defender of Lanfear<br />Grand Ninja-Nae'blis to be feared <br />Original Warder to Isa <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br />New Warder to Nossie <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />Toy to Seriana <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/winky.gif" border="0" /><br />Mystified by a Fan <br />Bonded Phelix - I was young, it happened so fast.</font><p></p>


created: 2004-11-24 19:09:22
subject: <b>Good thoughts</b>
body:
&quot;Graendal was the correct choice for the Tea Party, I doubt it was coincidence. The whole scene reeked with pre-planned undercurrents. Having part of it presented from Demandred's pov was brilliant too, IMO. (...) We finally got a chance to see why he was considered such a great general and tactician, picking out all these details.&quot;<br /><br />Wow.  We really see this scene the same way.  I agree it was utterly brilliant to present this from Demandred's POV - especially if we're right and he was the target of all this.  A brilliant way to keep it obscure.<br /><br />I think Jordan was subtely setting up the elements for the defeat of the Shadow and typically he may not insist too much on this aspect in the next two books, where, I believe, they will win major victories.  Two of the major themes in WoT are rivalry/team work and miscommunication/chaos vs. order.  <br /><br />Moridin and SH have all but resolved these issue for the Shadow side, for now. The Chosen are forced to work together and forced to obey. But it's totally artificial; they still all hate and despise each other.<br /><br />Rand and co. are still deep down in trouble and victims of disorganization and misunderstanding. This will have to be resolved and as it is not at the moment I think CoT set up nicely a turning point and KoD will show us the price they have to pay for their failures in this domain. <br /><br />I think by the end of the series the Light will get organized and communicate, and work as friends and teammates at last - while on the Shadow side betrayal and greed for power will ultimately bring the downfall when at the peek of TG the Chosen like Lanfear and Demandred will seize their last chance to end up on the top of the pile. This is the last time they might become Nae'blis - afterward it's eternity under Moridin and the Great Lord. Graendal has no said her last word either - and by her own admission she intends to let all the others die, with her help if needed.  I believe this is the true reason for not revealing Asmodean's killer (who I think is Graendal, but it works just as well if it's one of the others - or if one of them ordered Slayer and co - really it works with all the theories). Jordan will use it in a POV scene in TG where Asmodean's killer will kill or let die another Chosen and reflect she/he has done it to Asmodean and won't let pass another opportunity.  I prefer if it's Graendal because I think she considers Sammael's demise as yet another personal victory.<br /><br /><br />I speculate another major element of Shadow &quot;miscommunication&quot;, hidden for now, is that Semirhage has kept secret from the Nae'blis that she has lost Tuon. She thinks that with her fake DotNM she can still safely accomplish everything she needs to. It's what <i>Tuon</i> might accomplish (such as saving the AS) that she failed to foresee. Unlike Moridin she may not know or realize that the DotNM is part of the prophecies. Another example of miscommunication : one of Moridin's weakness is that he has to keep too much secret not to be betrayed - his pawns don't know enough.<br /><br />On the Light side what I imagine, for example, is situations where Faile and Berelain will have to rely on one another to survive or save Perrin's soul. Etc. Trials to be overcome, otherwise final defeat would happen.<br /><br />&quot;Whether or not Mesaana is indeed mind-trapped as many expect, RJ may have just layed the groundwork for Demandred's demise.&quot; Obviously he doesn't blindly trust her, but one way or another, I see trouble brewing from this. Will she betray him in some fashion because she's mindtrapped, or will his doubts about her trustworthiness cause him to go against her, even though she isn't? At some point this alliance that everyone knows about, is going to fall apart, and I think the first piece has been chipped away.&quot;<br /><br />I predicted the exact opposite would happen, but it can go both ways.<br /><br />One hunch I feel for sure is that Mesaana was not summoned to the Tea Party - she was summoned privately and didn't go, missing the order to go to the cleansing. I think the clear intention of Moridin by doing this was to isolate Demandred at this meeting and ascertain how far he was still relying on his alliance, how much the absence of his two partners would upset him - to stretch his limits as much as possible and thus make sure how loyal and obedient he can be.  Moridin did that to Sammael, and let him be killed. In Demandred's case it might mean the mindtrap, but I guess the fact he went to the cleansing and fought might have fooled Moridin.<br /><br />Graendal might even have suggested this strategy - Moridin would be stupid not to use her skills and knowledge as the best psychologist now that she is forced to obey him.<br />...  <i>Semirhage</i>, I think, is the &quot;weakest link&quot; in the trio. Her true allegiance is to the Dark One and by extension to Moridin because He ordered her to obey him - it has always been that way and Semirhage believes that's the way for her to reap the rewards. She associates herself with Demandred-Mesaana because it's a very convenient power play against the others and to further her goals, but only as far as it doesn't contradict her orders from the DO, open or secret. <br /><br />I believe Mesaana (whose purpose in the WT has been mostly fulfilled, IMO - Alviarin can easily take over at this point and <i>she</i> will obey blindly) might be so incensed by her fall from grace and the dismissal of her achievements and her skills (especially if she is forced to obey Alviarin and worse, <i>teach</i> her a couple of tricks...) that a replay of her AOL story that lead her to embrace the Shadow might take place (much like Demandred... he too is re-living his old trial of the AoL now that he can't escape the truth that Moridin <i>is</i> #1 and he number #2 - it's LTT all over again : there is no Shadow of the Shadow to join... so he reacts by planning to kill Moridin much like he wanted to defeat LTT - and the DO's goals can go to the Pit of Doombe damned!).  This leads me to speculate Mesaana and Demandred might join cause during TG to trap Moridin, after they realize Semirhage went to his side.<br /><br />All this disunity and selfishness, and Lanfear's strike as you describe below, will make the Shadow collapse at the end - after they appeared unbeatable earlier.<br /><br />&quot;Interesting idea about Osan'gar not being granted protection from the taint. It might have helped carry out the role of Dashiva, but would certainly have risks, too, when you consider how fast the taint overcomes some of the asha'man. Channeling only when necessary would minimize the exposure, though. OTOH, his pov when he gets his new body does show that he wasn't well-pleased, either: &quot;An ordinary face, and he had always hated being ordinary&quot;, might prove to be that this was his only punishment.&quot;<br /><br />True. This idea is not mine, I must say.  It might be Jim's, I don't remember.  I like it though - especially if it was coupled with a promise that the better he performed and the soonest he accomplished his mission the sooner he would get his protection from the taint back.<br /><br />&quot;I don't know about Cyndane being freed from her mind-trap, either. Lanfear was definitely a loose cannon, and I have my doubts that Moridin or the DO would allow her the chance to foil their plans at this late stage. However, I do think she will find a way to interfere that will be devastating to the Shadow, and end in her death.&quot;<br /><br />I agree on the last part. I think she will attempt something at the wrongest possible moment. As for her being release I agree in 20/20 hindsight that it would be foolish.<br /><br />There are two mindtraps for now, and there might be more that would change the picture I paint below.  I think RJ will have Moridin kill one of the two mindtrapped Chosen and free the other one. Moghedien and Lanfear have this big disadvantage, plotwise, of sharing the same TAR skills. I would love to see the &quot;Dream Team&quot; forced to collaborate on some elaborate TAR scheme, however.<br /><br />Strange as it may be it's Moghedien who proved herself untrustable so far. First she went against Nynaeve without orders, obeying her emotions much like the old Lanfear would have done and then she sat through the Cleansing doing strictly nothing. Cyndane apparently obeys, and she risked her life at the cleansing for the Shadow, throwing herself fully into a daring attack.<br /><br />My hunch is that the mindtrap reduces Cyndane and Moghedien's capacity to use TAR - and that Moridin has kept these two around mostly because he needs them in TAR sooner or later. So it would be necessary to release them.  It might turn out into a &quot;survival of the fittest&quot; game and in this I guess Cyndane has proven herself to be the one up to the job - especially if there are risks to be taken.  I imagine a scene where Moridin would have these two in front of him, revealing that he has a huge TAR job to be done (manipulating dreams on a massive scale so elements in the armies around Caemlyn go crazy and start fighting one another - just enough to create an unstoppable domino effect - It's been done in the WoS - Lanfear has won battles for the Shadow using dreams, and she created massive riots that way too). Then Moridin would say that, however, he doesn't need two Chosen for this... &quot;You should have worked harder Moghedien&quot;. Crush. and then Cyndane would be told the she has an appointment with the Dark One : &quot;Cyndane, remember you are still Cyndane. Fail and you will die. Displease me and my Nae'blis and I might not have more need of you when this task is done. Show me why I should give you power on the Day of Return&quot;.  <br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="images/personalsmilies/30778.gif" />Wheel of Time Reference Library : Articles, maps, charts and misc.<img src="images/personalsmilies/30778.gif" /><br /><br /></font><p><a href="http://13depository.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">The Thirteenth Depository - a Wheel of Time Blog</a></p><p></p>


created: 2004-11-25 11:51:50
subject: <b>Good stuff, as usual DomA</b>
body:
<b>I think by the end of the series the Light will get organized and communicate, and work as friends and teammates at last - while on the Shadow side betrayal and greed for power will ultimately bring the downfall when at the peek of TG the Chosen like Lanfear and Demandred will seize their last chance to end up on the top of the pile. This is the last time they might become Nae'blis - afterward it's eternity under Moridin and the Great Lord. Graendal has no said her last word either - and by her own admission she intends to let all the others die, with her help if needed. I believe this is the true reason for not revealing Asmodean's killer (who I think is Graendal, but it works just as well if it's one of the others - or if one of them ordered Slayer and co - really it works with all the theories). Jordan will use it in a POV scene in TG where Asmodean's killer will kill or let die another Chosen and reflect she/he has done it to Asmodean and won't let pass another opportunity. I prefer if it's Graendal because I think she considers Sammael's demise as yet another personal victory.</b><br /><br />I would compare Moridin and Rand as two player/coaches trying to ready their respective teams for the &quot;Big Game&quot;. Both are assembling their rosters from the available players, but the DO's team is a bunch of over-achieving misfits that all want to be the star performer that wins the game by himself, and grabs all the glory as well. Of course Rand's team is comprised of the players with less talent, and represent the underdogs. Not only that though, the other team has spies in the Rand's huddle, so they know all of his plays. (Or think they do, anyway.) Classic.<br /><br />As for Asmo's killer, I think most of the Forsaken had motive for doing away with him. They saw Rand as a threat to their aspirations for Nae'blis, so depriving him of a teacher was paramount. Other motives come into play as well. Some of them could have feared Asmo would give away their hiding places, reveal ongoing plots, possibly identify them for Rand, or as some think, make way for Taim. As you point out, about the only way it will be resolved is in a pov this far after-the-fact.<br /><br /><b>I speculate another major element of Shadow &quot;miscommunication&quot;, hidden for now, is that Semirhage has kept secret from the Nae'blis that she has lost Tuon. She thinks that with her fake DotNM she can still safely accomplish everything she needs to. It's what Tuon might accomplish (such as saving the AS) that she failed to foresee. Unlike Moridin she may not know or realize that the DotNM is part of the prophecies. Another example of miscommunication : one of Moridin's weakness is that he has to keep too much secret not to be betrayed - his pawns don't know enough.<br /><br />On the Light side what I imagine, for example, is situations where Faile and Berelain will have to rely on one another to survive or save Perrin's soul. Etc. Trials to be overcome, otherwise final defeat would happen.</b><br /><br />Both excellent points. It will be interesting to see where RJ starts off in KoD. At the end of CoT, Rand's timeline is about 16-18 days ahead of Mat, and that's about how long it took him and Tuon to get as far away from Ebou Dar as they are. Travelling back would take less time since they were with the menagerie, so they have time to encounter Karede first, work out some issues, and then still be back in Ebou Dar in time for Rand's meeting. I also like the idea of Faile and Berelain having to work together; such irony that would be.<br /><br /><b>One hunch I feel for sure is that Mesaana was not summoned to the Tea Party - she was summoned privately and didn't go, missing the order to go to the cleansing. I think the clear intention of Moridin by doing this was to isolate Demandred at this meeting and ascertain how far he was still relying on his alliance, how much the absence of his two partners would upset him - to stretch his limits as much as possible and thus make sure how loyal and obedient he can be. Moridin did that to Sammael, and let him be killed. In Demandred's case it might mean the mindtrap, but I guess the fact he went to the cleansing and fought might have fooled Moridin.<br /><br />Graendal might even have suggested this strategy - Moridin would be stupid not to use her skills and knowledge as the best psychologist now that she is forced to obey him.<br />... Semirhage, I think, is the &quot;weakest link&quot; in the trio. Her true allegiance is to the Dark One and by extension to Moridin because He ordered her to obey him - it has always been that way and Semirhage believes that's the way for her to reap the rewards. She associates herself with Demandred-Mesaana because it's a very convenient power play against the others and to further her goals, but only as far as it doesn't contradict her orders from the DO, open or secret.</b><br /><br />Semirhage will be in the driver's seat if she can get the a'dam on Rand, but for how long? Most people see a bad end for her because of this, me included. If she dies, then the alliance is down to two, and this is what I was basing my thoughts on. Of course Semi could escape, too, or other possible outcomes could happen as well, all of them bad for Rand. (If she collars him) <br /><br />The biggest determining factor for most theories is how long will RJ keep Rand a prisoner so close to the end, and with so much organizing left to do? Either it will be very short, (My hope), or he will remain collared until the eve of the final major conflict, IMHO. The former is much more plausible, the latter way more difficult to pull off with so many dreams/visions/prophecies to be fulfilled. With only two books left, it almost has to be one or the other, with no middle ground as far as I can see.<br /><br /><b>I believe Mesaana (whose purpose in the WT has been mostly fulfilled, IMO - Alviarin can easily take over at this point and she will obey blindly) might be so incensed by her fall from grace and the dismissal of her achievements and her skills (especially if she is forced to obey Alviarin and worse, teach her a couple of tricks...) that a replay of her AOL story that lead her to embrace the Shadow might take place (much like Demandred... he too is re-living his old trial of the AoL now that he can't escape the truth that Moridin is #1 and he number #2 - it's LTT all over again : there is no Shadow of the Shadow to join... so he reacts by planning to kill Moridin much like he wanted to defeat LTT - and the DO's goals can go to the Pit of Doombe damned!). This leads me to speculate Mesaana and Demandred might join cause during TG to trap Moridin, after they realize Semirhage went to his side.</b><br /><br />More irony, and I see this developing as you state, too. Both of our ideas could still be right, (or wrong), though, just happening differently than we expect. At some point all three will fall away from the alliance, since it was a temporary arrangement until the others were out of contention. (At least that's the way I see it). Messy and Demmy both have too much ambition, and will eventually make their move independently.<br /><br /><b>My hunch is that the mindtrap reduces Cyndane and Moghedien's capacity to use TAR - and that Moridin has kept these two around mostly because he needs them in TAR sooner or later. So it would be necessary to release them. It might turn out into a &quot;survival of the fittest&quot; game and in this I guess Cyndane has proven herself to be the one up to the job - especially if there are risks to be taken. I imagine a scene where Moridin would have these two in front of him, revealing that he has a huge TAR job to be done (manipulating dreams on a massive scale so elements in the armies around Caemlyn go crazy and start fighting one another - just enough to create an unstoppable domino effect - It's been done in the WoS - Lanfear has won battles for the Shadow using dreams, and she created massive riots that way too). Then Moridin would say that, however, he doesn't need two Chosen for this... &quot;You should have worked harder Moghedien&quot;. Crush. and then Cyndane would be told the she has an appointment with the Dark One : &quot;Cyndane, remember you are still Cyndane. Fail and you will die. Displease me and my Nae'blis and I might not have more need of you when this task is done. Show me why I should give you power on the Day of Return&quot;.</b><br /><br />Again, good ideas. Moggy has been detrimental to the Shadow if anything, so far, (much like Asmo was), so it is rather surprising she's still around anyway. And the KoD title certainly suggests we might see a lot more action in T'A'R, too. <br /><br />Two things I am looking forward to with Cyndane: Going after Rand's women, and going after him personally. After the showdown at the docks, and Rand telling her he could never love one of the Forsaken, left an issue unsettled that begs for vengeance and resolution. In my eyes, if there is one woman that Rand has to kill to get over his &quot;female problem&quot;, it's her. Many have predicted that Min will die at some point, and Lanfear could be the one to do it. This would provide Rand with all the motivation he needs to kill her. (It's not that I want it to happen that way, but it's a possibility.)  <br /><br /><br /> <br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2004-11-27 13:35:55
subject: <b>I just realized this.</b>
body:
It took them about 100 years or so to realize the DO was free and several hundred years to seal him back up. The inducement to join (as stated in your theory) was because of the taint and something for the women. The taint wasn't a factor until AFTER the bore was sealed and all the forsaken had joined up by then. I think that they joined up for their own personal reasons....<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rand.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perrin.gif" border="0" /><br />I don't fail. I succeed in finding what doesn't work. <br /><br /><font color="00ff33">Official Sponsor of the Melindhra Fan Club</font></font><p><a href="http://www.illwillpress.com" target="_blank">Feel the Squirley Wrath!!!!</a></p><p></p>


created: 2004-11-28 13:39:24
subject: <b>I voted yes, but......</b>
body:
Are not immortality and power the stated reasons for most Forsaken going over to the DO.<br /><br />Well...except for Ishy... <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>you know you can't leave Wotmania. It's kinda like herpes, you can just never really get rid of it.</i><br />Kit <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /></font><p><a href="http://www.cbgxtra.com/" target="_blank">Comics Buyer's Guide XTRA</a></p><p></p>


created: 2004-11-28 14:54:32
subject: <b>I totally disagree with this theory</b>
body:
There is not a single shred of proof to substantiate it. It is all conjecture.<br /><br />It makes no sense that the Dark One would grant only the women extra strength.<br /><br />Besides, channeling strength is related directly to the soul, and there is no evidence that the Dark One can alter it in the slightest. If he could, he certainly would do it for all his minions. Any strength advantage would make them more useful to him.<br /><br />And also, the female Forsaken were among the most powerful women of the Age of Legends - Lanfear was THE most powerful woman in the world. <br /><br /><br />If they were given additional boosts in strength on top of that, I find it highly unlikely that you would find so many modern female channelers who match, and possibly even exceed the female Forsaken in strength. Sharina, Alivia, Nynaeve, Talaan, all of them would then be matching the female Forsaken even though the female Chosen have a strength boost from the Dark One. <br /><br />That is inconceivable, because it would mean that without the Dark One's boost, the modern female channelers would be stronger than the strongest women from the Age of Legends.<br /><br />As for the &quot;partial shield&quot; theory relating to Cyndane. No, that is not possible.<br /><br />A partial shield would stop an individual from channeling her full strength, but her natural potential would remain unchanged. That is an attribute of the soul.<br /><br />When Graendal comments on Cyndane's strength, she refers to Cyndane's potential, which is greater than Graendal's. <br /><br />If Cyndane's reduction in strength was caused by a partial shield, Graendal and Mesaana would still have sensed Lanfear's original potential when seeing Cyndane.<br /><br />From all the evidence, it is Cyndane's potential which has been changed after her fall into Finnland.<br /><br />By far the most likely theory, is still the one which states  that Lanfear had previously visited the Finns, and made a wish to be as strong as a woman could possibly be.<br /><br />When she fell through the doorway again, that wish was reversed by the Finns.<br /><br />All in all, I cannot agree with the &quot;female Forsaken strength boost&quot; theory at all. It is simply not supported by the evidence.<br /><br />The books, and the reactions of the female and male Forsaken when in each other's presence, make it clear that there is indeed a significant gap in strength between the males in females. It is no different than it was in the Age of Legends.<br /><br />The males's strength superiority is alluded to by among others:<br /><br />Rahvin<br />Asmodean<br />Moghedien<br />Graendal<br />Cyndane<br />and<br />Sammael.<br /><br />It exists, and it is as great as it ever was.


created: 2004-11-27 07:16:58
subject: <b>nice one</b>
body:
I'll vote yes because it's a very nice theory. But I don't agree with all of it, tough: <br /><br />a)<b>Either achieve his greatness or set the mechanism in motion for him to achieve his greatness.</b><br /><br />This aready happened. We know that Min's viewings always come true. So, when Min saw Logain with the greatness aura in the Tower, the mechanism already came into motion -i.e.: Elaida Sedai rebelling against Siuane Sanche.<br /><br />b) <b>The second will be the first preeminent example in the 3rd Age of men and women working together with the OP (what a coincidence that the taint was recently removed). With men and women working together again with the OP a new Age will be ready to emerge after the Last Battle.</b><br /><br />This already happened Before the taint was cleaned. When Rand was about to clean the One Power, his 'bodyguards' linked together in order to protect him (and themselves) against the Chosen and any other interfering Aes Sedai or Asha-man (or channelers like the Seanchan or who-knows-what)<br /><br />Apart from that, nice theory


created: 2004-11-27 14:01:35
subject: <b>good idea...</b>
body:
i also wonder about the laughter and tears part, but i do like your theory.  but i always figured Narishma would be the one to continue to use Callandor, since he has been the one using it.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Roll Tide Baby!<br /><br />Mat = too good</font><p></p>


created: 2004-11-27 18:31:37
subject: <b>I don't like it.</b>
body:
Callandor will be wielded by Jahar Narishma!<br /><br />He is the coolest Asha'man out there. Logain is just a pimp!


created: 2004-11-28 08:20:27
subject: <b>I agree..</b>
body:
That Logain will wield Callandor with his AS, since he is certainly the one who shall follow after, mentioned in the prophecy in TSR, ch.21 (Narishma's role was too minor).<br /><br />It's possible that Cadsuane will somehow teach the Asha'man to work together with AS to achieve great things, although we already see in CoT that all camps consider this on their own.


created: 2004-11-28 13:43:28
subject: <b>I'll give a yes vote.............</b>
body:
I can find nothing to disagree with...and I am sure RJ had Logain bond those two for more than just showing that it could be done.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>you know you can't leave Wotmania. It's kinda like herpes, you can just never really get rid of it.</i><br />Kit <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /></font><p><a href="http://www.cbgxtra.com/" target="_blank">Comics Buyer's Guide XTRA</a></p><p></p>


created: 2004-11-28 17:27:07
subject: <b>Logain's glory</b>
body:
From what Min says I always got the feeling that it would be a glory beyond all other men, there is only one man in one case who could have such. That would be the Dragon after winning the Last Battle. Or someone who everyone thinks is the Dragon.    To me this is backed up by Egghead's gream where Logain steps over Rand's body onto the speaking stone at the BT.


created: 2004-11-28 19:11:12
subject: <b>Cadsuane will bring men to trust Aes Sedai?</b>
body:
I'd sooner cut open my own veins then trust Cadsuane! And this has nothing to do with the fact that I really don't like her. She has done nothing to bring people to trust her, or Aes Sedai.<br /><br />I also find it strange that she should teach Rand to trust Aes Sedai, when from Moiraine's letter, I figured he had to distrust Aes Sedai, and Cadsuane in particular.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>War must be, while we defend our lives against a destroyer who would devour all; but I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend</i><br />~Faramir</font><p></p>


created: 2004-11-29 00:22:40
subject: <b>What does Caddy have to do with this?</b>
body:
I agree completely that Logain will wield Callandor with the help of his two bonded Aes Sedai and also that this will be another step towards the two Towers working together (following the cleansing, AS bonding Ashaman and vice versa, and The Rebel Tower already having agreed to sending envoys to the Ashaman to propose working together).<br /><br />But how does Cadsuane fit into this? I can see no reason why she should play a role other than the fact that she knows of the supposed flaw in Callandor. That might help in the incidence of Logain and his AS working together, but much of the bigger picture of the two towers combining is nothing to do with her (The Ashaman started bonding AS of their own accord, Egwene has arranged the Rebel envoy to the BT of her own accord)<br /><br />So, while I agree with most of you say, I can't see this as being what Caddy will teach Rand and the Ashaman.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Kneel or you will be knelt&quot; - Mazrim Taim</font><p></p>


created: 2004-12-02 05:13:10
subject: <b>The one who would follow after</b>
body:
One of the prophecies (and I can't remember which one and which book) links Callendor and the 'one who would follow after&quot; .  We all know that Narishma retrieved Callendor so it's pretty safe to assume he is the one who follows after.  I don't know of anything that links Logain to Callendor.  The glory Min sees coming for him may have nothing to do with Callendor or even the OP.


created: 2004-12-04 06:47:06
subject: <b>Irrelevant?</b>
body:
I haven't gotten back around to that point in my rereading yet, so I may well be wrong.... But didn't the flaw in Callandor have to do with magnifying the taint? If the taint really is gone now, then magnifying it isn't a risk.<br /><br />Of course, we could see a repeat from the original books....<br /><br />Rand: &quot;I killed Ba'alzamon!&quot;<br />   Ishy: &quot;Hahah! No you didn't!&quot;<br />Rand: *uses fiery sword* &quot;NOW I've killed Ba'alzamon!&quot;<br />   Ishy: &quot;Hahah! No you didn't!&quot;<br />Rand: *channels something in desperation* &quot;NOW?&quot;<br />   DO: &quot;HAHAH! NO, YOU DIDN'T!&quot;<br />   Moridin: &quot;That was really close!&quot;<br /><br />Rand: *Shadar Logoth ploy* &quot;I got rid of the taint!&quot;<br />   To be continued?


created: 2004-12-18 00:05:17
subject: <b>I agree</b>
body:
for the most part. But speaking of men &amp; women coming back together... I figured Logain would end up as some sort of Amyrlin Seat. Maybe working in conjunction with Egwene? It would certainly be an honor not experienced by many men, and it would keep him out of the Dragon's way!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>~<font color="#3300CC">Ran</font><font color="#0066FF">do</font><font color="#99CCFF">m</font> <font color="#0066FF">Dr</font><font color="#0000CC">eam</font>~<br /><font color="#000066">Question everything.</font></b> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/crazy.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-01-22 11:21:44
subject: <b>Caddy and Callandor</b>
body:
2 comments, first based on  kyuss's comment, &quot;the fact that she knows of the supposed flaw in Callandor&quot;, is there really a flaw or is she decieving Rand.  He used it twice successfully, to kill Ba'alzamon, and latter in defending the Stone of Tear.  The only other time he used it was to attack the Seanchen, but there was a real issue with Saidin, shortly before that Adley lost control of saidin killing a bunch of Ailil's and Anaiyella's men, just like Rand did with Callandor.  And remember Dashiva's comments about Saidin.  Is Callandor really flawed?  Can Logain use it safely without Aes Sedai?  Did Cadsuane lie, is she truly not under the Three Oaths?<br /><br />Next Cadsuane will teach them something needed to defeat the Dark Lord.  At the end of the second age, 2 methods were proposed to contain, but not defeat the Dark Lord.  If they could not do it, what can Rand and company do to win.  Put Herid Fel (and Min still studying his writings), with what happened in Ebou Dar, including with Callandor.  Something  interfered with Saidin and Saidar from being used propery (the Bowl of Winds or Elayne's weave exploding?).  Can something be done to make it not usable at all, any where in the world.  The statue Sa'angreal can break the world, can they put a barrier between the world and the One Power?   <br /><br />Cadsuane will not only teach them to work together but also to discover a way to spearate the Dark One from the pattern by putting a barrier between the One Power and world so no-one can use it, including the Dark One, with the result of putting the Creator's barrier back in place???  No-one will be able to use the One power for ages to come, just like it was in ages past.


created: 2005-03-27 23:18:35
subject: <b>In replie to Logain, Cadsuane and the future</b>
body:
Your theory sounds good but correct ne if I'm wrong. But the flaw in Callandor had!!!!! two parts to it.<br /><br />The first is that it does not have a safety cap so to speeck to stop the chaneler for over chaneling and therefore burning themselfs out. this flaw remains and is a small problem that would call for restrant when using Callandor. but is not in itself the reason that Cadsuane insisted that two women be linked to a man so Callandor could be safely used in Winters Heart. <br /><br />The second flaw was that Callandor made the taint several times more potent and that a man risked instant madness when he used it. <br /><br />Read Winters Heart again if you do not believe me but I tell you now Callandor will always be dangerous but it is no longer deadly to its user.


created: 2005-09-05 22:14:43
subject: <b>I like your theory</b>
body:
but I think that Logain's glory will be because he will be the Tamrylin.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sister to Nossy<br />Shot swapper with a_fan <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br />Bonded to Phil Reborn and Sidious<br />&quot;Mommies are like wizards&quot; ~ CVH <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br />The fact that I don't agree with you in no way means I didn't understand you.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-09-22 13:26:30
subject: <b>Logains great deed and gainig Rands trust</b>
body:
Could it be that Logain will kill Taim and replace him as the head of the Black tower?<br />Continuing the theory that the White and Black tower will merge I see Logain as the male amyrlin after Rands death.


created: 2006-10-16 17:39:31
subject: <b>Right...</b>
body:
It is a good theory, but in case you have forgotten... RAND is meant to use Callandor.  I mean, Rand is the Dragon Reborn, and Logain isn't!


created: 2007-04-22 21:07:26
subject: <b>logain, cadsuane and the future</b>
body:
I have to applaude you on the callandor theory! I had not thought of that as a possibilty for Logain to prove himself, but i disagree with Cadsuanes' involvement. Her lesson that is so vital to male channelers, i think, will be something else entirely.<br />   I hate to discredit personally such a good theory though, so well done on callandor<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">When one person suffers from a delusion it is called 'insanity'; When many people suffer from a delusion it is called 'religion'</font><p></p>


created: 2004-11-27 11:54:08
subject: <b>Naked as the day she was born....</b>
body:
In TSR, she was naked. thats a time weve seen her without a cloak....<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rand.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perrin.gif" border="0" /><br />I don't fail. I succeed in finding what doesn't work. <br /><br /><font color="00ff33">Official Sponsor of the Melindhra Fan Club</font></font><p><a href="http://www.illwillpress.com" target="_blank">Feel the Squirley Wrath!!!!</a></p><p></p>


created: 2004-11-27 16:00:37
subject: <b>sorry</b>
body:
Just like Iodlom said. Beside, most stuff you indicate as &quot;proof&quot; can be interpreted in many ways. For example, at the Eye of the World, pale skin can be interpreted as being scared to the death. <br /><br />Lanfear getting irritaded is true but for another reason. Lanfear was channeling so much power she taught she could ignore the other humans. When Moiraine got in her way, Lanfear  just didn't realise what threat Moiraine was.<br /><br />I can go on and on, but I don't feel like it. Sorry


created: 2004-11-27 16:44:39
subject: <b>I like it</b>
body:
I thought it was a pretty good arguement.  (You will note this is a HUMORUOS theory.)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">:0 Alea Sedai :0</font><p></p>


created: 2004-11-29 07:34:12
subject: <b>jees</b>
body:
Just saw it was with the humourous theorys. Could have sworn it wasn't there when I checked. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sleepy.gif" border="0" /> You got me there mate.


created: 2004-11-30 06:30:36
subject: <b>Good One</b>
body:
I like it, you back it up perfectly and leave no cracks for anything to slip through! Very well thought out! If you thought this was good though, just wait until they post my theory about how Rand is actually a talking horse who thinks he's the Dragon Reborn and eveyone else is just humoring him.


created: 2004-11-30 06:41:51
subject: <b>Some points</b>
body:
Maybe all her extra powers come from her being a female draghkar?<br /><br />Besides, her being naked doesn't count. Why would any male notice any wings while seeing her <i>naked</i>?<br /><br />Good theory. Though I wonder, could it be that she isn't really conscious about being a draghkar herself, seeing as she doesn't seem to think about that all that much in her POV?<br /><br />Or maybe there are two Moiraine, The human one and the evil-twin draghkar. The dark secret of House Damodred; they allied themselves with Draghkar to become invincible in Daes Daemar!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">The only way to convince me is by providing some evidence!</font><p></p>


created: 2004-12-01 10:27:37
subject: <b>Moiraine's POVs</b>
body:
While it is true that Moiraine doesn't really think of herself as a Draghkar in her POVs, this is so for a very good reason.  You see, Draghkars are generally taller than the average man.  Moiraine, however, is a Cairhienin Draghkar.  Like all things Cairhienin, she is touchy about being short.  This is particularly bad among Draghkars, who are very &quot;height&quot;-ist and ostracize those more than a hand shorter than the norm.<br /><br />In fact, it's a sad story.  Ever since Aginor created them, every so often there has been a runt Draghkar in a litter.  All of the other Draghkar used to laugh and call these runts names (like &quot;Dragh-kompact-kars&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />.  They never let the poor runts play in all the Draghkar games.  Then one foggy Bel Tine eve, one runt (Moiraine) came to the Two Rivers to get Rand et. al. out of Dodge.  As you will remember, she was accompanied by her boyfried Draghkar, Chet, who was flying around that night.  Chet wasn't looking for his she-Draghkar - no, no - he was trying to find out what had happened to his lovechild with Moiraine, Narg.<br /><br />As you know, Narg was killed by Bela (Rand doesn't remember this right, either), and this upset Moiraine so much that she has blocked out most of her Draghkar-thoughts from her conscious mind.  This blocking was only intensified when the ancient twins fried her boyfriend.<br /><br />So there you go, being short, Moiraine is shunned by other Draghkars, and having lost her shadowspawn love, she is sad.  That's why she doesn't like to think about her heritage.


created: 2004-12-08 12:38:56
subject: <b>Sorry but no</b>
body:
There is no way I can accept this theory. I very seriously dought RJ would do something like that without giving us some better clues. Not to mention, if it were true, it would fundimentally change the way we have all looked at the story from the begining. Sorry but no, you are reaching too far.<br /><br />gandalf79


created: 2004-12-12 17:37:52
subject: <b>LOL</b>
body:
I love it when someone doesn't see the &quot;Humor&quot; section for a theory and thinks it's serious.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">A One Power researcher<br />Defender of Lanfear<br />Grand Ninja-Nae'blis to be feared <br />Original Warder to Isa <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br />New Warder to Nossie <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />Toy to Seriana <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/winky.gif" border="0" /><br />Mystified by a Fan <br />Bonded Phelix - I was young, it happened so fast.</font><p></p>


created: 2004-12-18 08:51:03
subject: <b>sh*t</b>
body:
ahhaha really stupid theory ont you remember that in new sring she was nakked and also when perrin came in her room in the DR she also was nakked no wing no nothing .... i thik you have something wrong in your head ..... DONT EVER SAY BAD THINGs FOR MOIRAINE IN MY PRESENCE !!!!!!!!


created: 2005-01-30 13:20:13
subject: <b>lan</b>
body:
hey <br /><br />you forgot one detail what about lan. if moiraine is a draghkar like u say who is lan ?<br /><br />


created: 2005-02-02 13:28:30
subject: <b>HUMOR!</b>
body:
Note. This is a HUMOROUS theory. I love it when people fail to see it though <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br />Really funny theory BTW <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perplexed.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smackhead.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /> LLT <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-04-02 10:45:27
subject: <b>Yeah, just what is Lan anyway?</b>
body:
Seriously if Moiraine was a draghkar then lan would have to be shadow spawn to. I mean he wouldknow with the bond right? And if he's shadowspawn then Nynaeve is gonna be really mad when she finds out. Sniff of the century!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Masria Sedai of the Brown Ajah<br />The Zaftig Cat Girl<br /><br />http://serpentinepoet.proboards107.com/index.cgi</font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-23 15:03:15
subject: <b>Died her wings blue...</b>
body:
We HAVE seen Moiraine without her cloak, in New Spring!!!! But i still might agree with you, except for the wings part, because she cant keep her wings hidden away at the dressmaker's in New Spring.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">A team is only as good as its worst player. That would be me. <br />Proud Collaborator of the imaginary band Dumai's Wells<br />boys can dream... Girl's dreams come true.<br />Mat is not a bloody lord. However, I am <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /><br />Resident Mat Worshipper <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /><br />~GMR</font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-23 15:06:17
subject: <b>Also...</b>
body:
If Lanfear sent Moiraine to watch Rand for her, why did she kill Lanfear? unless it was her instinctive draghkar abilty taking over. and maybe the ter'angreal doorway cant hold anything but humans and aelfinn. I MIGHT vote for you, but chances are becoming slimmer<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">A team is only as good as its worst player. That would be me. <br />Proud Collaborator of the imaginary band Dumai's Wells<br />boys can dream... Girl's dreams come true.<br />Mat is not a bloody lord. However, I am <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /><br />Resident Mat Worshipper <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /><br />~GMR</font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-23 15:08:41
subject: <b>Actually...</b>
body:
oN second thought you confirmed all of my doubts except for the wings part. I'll vote yes.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">A team is only as good as its worst player. That would be me. <br />Proud Collaborator of the imaginary band Dumai's Wells<br />boys can dream... Girl's dreams come true.<br />Mat is not a bloody lord. However, I am <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /><br />Resident Mat Worshipper <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /><br />~GMR</font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-26 17:50:44
subject: <b>duh ppower surgery</b>
body:
i agree with everything you have there except the wings-- i find it hilarious that you didnt see that she obviously removed them with the power.


created: 2005-09-09 00:42:01
subject: <b>Except that</b>
body:
Perrin saw her without her cloak, or much else for that matter! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/winky.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sister to Nossy<br />Shot swapper with a_fan <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br />Bonded to Phil Reborn and Sidious<br />&quot;Mommies are like wizards&quot; ~ CVH <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br />The fact that I don't agree with you in no way means I didn't understand you.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-09-13 20:15:07
subject: <b>This is totally...</b>
body:
...BRILLIANT !!!!! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">It's enough now~</font><p></p>


created: 2005-09-29 01:25:00
subject: <b>Not this again!</b>
body:
BALROGS DON'T HAVE WINGS, IT'S JUST A METAPHOR!!!  Oh, wait, wrong Theory....<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Warder to the unrivalled Rival.  Let the competition (such as it is) fear my wrath!<br /><br /><i>For full disclosure, subtract ~2000 from my CMB views.</i><br /><br />Love can't be coerced.<br /><br />Seek in Joel what goodness God gave me; seek the ill no more, for it and I are dead.</font><p></p>


created: 2006-07-02 17:07:37
subject: <b>Sweat-Baths<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /></b>
body:
Moiraine was seen by other women (not men) in Rhuidean during an Aiel sweat-bath, in one of the books towards the middle of the series.....Egwene noticed particularly that she semed to be &quot;completely unaware of her pale nakedness, with sweat slicking her skin and plastering her dark-brown hair to her head.&quot;<br /><br />Sorry, but it WAS a funny theory (so I guess you succeeded). <br />PMZ<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Luck is a horse to ride like any other.&quot;<br />~Mat Cauthon~<br />&quot;Meddle not in the affairs of dragons, for thou art crunchy and  good with ketchup.&quot;<br />~Anonymous~<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2006-09-19 01:26:22
subject: <b>Mask of Mirrors</b>
body:
Possibly by the time of Rhuidean etc she had learned the MOM (maybe from the same source she learned Balefire)so that is why no one remarks on her blue wings<br /><br />Also maybe the draghkar's wings dont grow while they are young...ie:new spring<br /><br />obviously lan is a result of a rarer throback to human stock or however it is that fades are made...thus he has eyes but he still has a cold gaze...many references are made to this thru the series<br /><br />just my 2 cents<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">There is no river<br />that enough earth couldn't dam or enough fire evaporate,<br />nor is there a wind<br />so strong that an earthen wall cannot deflect or a hot<br />enough fire fend off its chill.<br /><br />Any equivalent saying among women is irrelevant<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2006-11-13 13:43:14
subject: <b>it was brilliant</b>
body:
The way you had written it was excellent. you did leave room for some doubts though. When Perrin walks in on her naked in TSR, and in the Aiel sweat tents she definately has no wings. other than that I thought it is believeable, I vote yes.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Ishamael, Power over all<br />Nae'Blis to the end<br />Immortal<br />He will forever be Nae'Blis<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2007-03-19 19:42:50
subject: <b>And now Mat will go and bring her back?</b>
body:
Oh dear...there will be trouble. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" />


created: 2007-06-24 02:10:23
subject: <b>...</b>
body:
some people don't realise that this is the humor section, and a thumbs up means you like a theory, not agree with it. It's pretty funny, and who cares about apposingevidence that can be found easily in  HUMOR theory?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/egwene.gif" border="0" /> Pyro sedai of the Green Ajah <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/egwene.gif" border="0" /><br />sh! I'm planning world domination! <br />anyone fancy playing maidens kiss?<br />Video games: my anti real life. <br />rpgs did not replace my common sense, they just filled the void. <br /> <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2007-09-10 03:24:07
subject: <b>.... it all makes sense now</b>
body:
OMG they're all draghkar! Perin didn't mention the wings because he's a draghkar too ... so is everyone else. Except for Elyane, because me and Elyane are gonna get married, and no way i'm marrying shadowspawn, imagine what the kids would look like.


created: 2004-11-27 11:05:02
subject: <b>nice!</b>
body:
Great Job on the theory... though I had kind of assumed this was true... thanks for putting a lot of the pieces together and outlining the major players and events...<br /><br />I think a lot of people already kinda 'knew' this was true... but your attn to detail and the fact that you really stuck to what was in the books without making up random assumptions makes this a truly great theory...<br /><br />Again, Well Done!


created: 2004-11-27 14:44:55
subject: <b>Nice</b>
body:
Very nice.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /> would approve.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Who we were is lost to all men, and life is bitter.&quot;<br />&quot;Expect nothing, and you will not be surprised.&quot;  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-11-27 18:18:11
subject: <b>I dont see the point</b>
body:
Why this secrecy? The primary goal of the Reds is to Gentle men. Why the extra trouble of defying tower law and doing it in secret? It would be so much more easy to kart them off to the tower and Gentle them.


created: 2004-11-28 00:43:02
subject: <b>Chesmal Emry</b>
body:
One of the 13 BA that fled the Tower with Liandrin, claimed to have induced the Reds to kill Sieren. (This conflicts with Alviarin, who claims no BA involvement in that. Perhaps she just didn't know about Chesmal's inducement.)<br /><br />Anyway, there has been speculation that Tamra ordered her searchers to hunt down those that might be the Dragon Reborn and return them to the Tower. There it could be determined if he was, and protect him. If that's the case, the BA could have learned of this plan when they tortured Tamra, and used the Reds to start gentling men at large to prevent them from being brought to the Tower. (Of course they were unaware that he would have been a child at this time. They were still looking for &quot;lucky men&quot;, possible male channelers.) <br /><br />Good theory, BTW. thumbs up.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2004-11-28 06:33:27
subject: <b>Great on Black, weak on Red</b>
body:
Great theory and thought.  I agree with the Black Ajah getting invovled and influencing/directing other Ajahs.  I disagree in that the theory implies in the end that the Red Ajah was just a tool in the gentling of males and the implication that the Reds would have never done it.  I disagree.  The Red Ajah is based on controling and diminishing the power of men.  Unlike the Green Ajah, this isn't Dark One- Final Battle based.  The Reds don't focus on the Dark One, they focus on men.  Blending the 2 together to make their position stronger just makes their job easier.  The fact that there are Reds who went along with the slaughter of men without Black Ajah knowledge is another sign, not an exception.  The Red Ajah exists to keep men channelers dead or controlled, bottom line.  they seem, without Black Ajah influence, to be stubborn, strong headed and DEDICATED TO THEIR CAUSE.  If anything, the Black Ajah, helped nudge them into doing something they were already doing or at least, mentally and emotionally accepted as the &quot;right thing to do&quot;.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.&quot; - George Orwell</font><p></p>


created: 2004-11-28 10:02:59
subject: <b>Yes, good theory...</b>
body:
And as a reply to Betrayer Of Hogs and Nikolai al Farran:<br /><br />The Red Ajah's cause is to gentle all male channelers, <i> except </i> the Dragon Reborn of course. <br />After all, he shall fight the Dark One at TG.<br /><br />Therefore Tower law says that male channelers shall be brought to Tar Valon and be gentled there, apparently after some kind of test if the man is the Dragon Reborn. <br /><br />What the Red Ajah did in the past, namely to gentle men outside of Tar Valon without knowing if it was the Dragon Reborn, was illegal and thus certainly a BA plot.<br />


created: 2004-11-28 15:48:55
subject: <b>well,</b>
body:
but it seems to me a big risk for the BA. Why not wait until the male channelers are in the tower. Even if they fear, they might stumble upon the Dragon Reborn, they have should be confident to kill him in the case he escapes Genteling.I mean, they actually plottet to get Rand in the tower. so it would be a stupid move to risk exposure and to damage their best tool (the reds) for a something that is almost a guaranteed outcome of the legal procedure.


created: 2004-11-28 17:26:40
subject: <b>Er...</b>
body:
Um, isn't this common knowledge?  It's pretty much spelled out that the BA was behind the Red Ajah extra-judicious gentling in the WOTFAQ and the FAQ here, right?  Seems like this is a bit redundant.


created: 2004-11-28 21:14:58
subject: <b>What about Owein?</b>
body:
Here is a thought - wasn't Owein (Thom's nephew) gentled during this period? It think this would tend to support this theory.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Asmodean is alive and posing as Sammael!<br /><br />Sammael <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sammy.gif" border="0" /> is Sparticus.<br /><br />No, I'm Sparticus! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /> = <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />I'm Herid Fel Reborn!!!!! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shy.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-11-29 18:55:40
subject: <b>Ummm.... not to burst your bubble, but</b>
body:
This is a well written article, but it's really nothing new and is almost point for point a repitition of the WOTFAQ entry on the subject:<br /><br />http://www.darkfriends.net/wheel/2_nondark/2.4_yore/2.4.11_vileness.html<br /><br />High Lady Cionath<br />Lady of the Broken Lands<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" />


created: 2004-11-27 12:41:21
subject: <b>pretty good</b>
body:
I think this is a very interesting spin on things. some of the reasons can be elaborated on and I think there are better reasons for some of the situations but all in all pretty good


created: 2004-11-27 15:18:17
subject: <b>I agree</b>
body:
I agree, except for the part about if the taint were on women instead the world would have never climbed out of the barbarian age.  For every Mazrim Taim or Charl Gedwyn in the world, there is a Jahar Narishma or an Eben Hopwil.<br /><br />The world would of course be drastically different if <i>saidar</i> were tainted instead of <i>saidin</i>, but don't be so quick to draw sexism into the argument and start making conclusions based on it....<br /><br />However, the comment that Aes Sedai have only hurt themselves by their own policies is misguided--they hurt <i>everyone</i> by using their power the way they do, themselves most of all.   I heartily agree.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Who we were is lost to all men, and life is bitter.&quot;<br />&quot;Expect nothing, and you will not be surprised.&quot;  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-11-28 06:20:10
subject: <b>Well Done!</b>
body:
Well done, this is a very well thought out and explained theory.  It's theories like this which make this my favorite part of wotmania.<br />I have thought of this as well but never posted it.  I could even tie it into a simple aspect of the power of women (look at all societies, even the 2 Rivers, women have a very relevant- if not dominant role) over men and the need to rebalance that.  I can't think of any nation where women either dominate the show or are a major force in the decision making process of a society.<br /><br />As far as the Cold War hysterics part, I bet you are young enough to where you don't remember it as an adult or teenager and just got your info from a college class/discussion group.  Nuclear war is still a threat, the bombs are there (I admit, not as much as last time) and the possibility of a nuclear war (while small) is still there. If you lived during that time you would know the fear and paranoia that came from the Cold War.  We didn't need politicians telling us to be afraid, knowing that the 2 most powerful nations were run by people like that and that they were aiming nukes at each other IS scary.  I'm amazed that people don't pay more attention to China and what may come from her...my two cents on that.<br /><br /><br />Nikolai al Farran<br />Supporting the Black Tower- dominance over all<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.&quot; - George Orwell</font><p></p>


created: 2004-11-28 17:18:11
subject: <b>*standing ovation*</b>
body:
Disclamer: My hatred of AS is superceded only by my haltered of Egwene. <br /><br />Bravo, in some post I said that AS are obsolete, rotting from the inside like a peice of wood, and so far above the &#8220;common people&#8221; that they might as well be on Mars. You said it better ^.^<br /><br />But there is something to add I think(more AS bashing).   AS power and authority is a bluff.  AS hold power because they have been convincing everyone including themselves that they should, repeat fiction long enough and it becomes truth. Granted they did save civilization in the Westlands, and helped in the Trolloc Wars as well as other things. But in general all they have been doing for three thousand years is trying to guide nations in the ways they wanted. AS firmly believe that they are above all, that all other people are children to be guided so that they do not hurt themselves.  All if not most rulers have AS advisors who are clearly the executors of the WT&#8217;s will.  They are listened to because they are AS, because everyone thinks that they possess great and secret  knowledge. This myth of knowledge is backed up on the fact that they wield the OP, and the fear of that. All the centuries AS have done nothing to maintain the substance which supported that bluff, that substance has been slowly withering, instead they have just piled illusion upon illusion, so much so that they themselves no longer see it as such.  Eventually however this card castle has to fall under its own weight and it has begun to fall. How AS will handle it, incapable as they are of dealing with the changes that are happening, is yet to be seen. So far they are failing, trying to use traditions and ways of thinking that no longer apply and it has only made things worse, for them and everyone else.


created: 2004-11-28 18:26:32
subject: <b>Not exactly an illusion</b>
body:
The Aes Sedai's power, though built on a bluff of knowledge and authority, is real by this time.  Regardless of how smart you are, if enough people listen to you, you have real power.  The Aes Sedai definitly have power - that was the point of my theory.  The point is though, they are misusing the power and it is the FACT that they are the ultimate power that is causing humanity to fade away.  The Aes Sedai wouldn't be responsible if they weren't really in charge.  I'm not necessarily saying they SHOULDN'T be in charge, just dealing with the fact that they ARE.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


created: 2004-11-29 01:47:21
subject: <b>I think I said that badly.</b>
body:
I agree that they have power, the problem is where it came from as well as how it is being used.  AS demand to be obeyed because they are AS, when someone says no(and can back it up) they are unable to handle it. I think they should not be in command.  Anything  most of them do has as its ultimate or at least peripheral goal the increase of the strength of the WT.  And all seem to have the &quot;we know best because we are AS&quot; attitude, even when it is clear that someone else has better knowledge and experience.


created: 2004-11-29 07:33:07
subject: <b>Big Bluff</b>
body:
Aes Sedai have always bluffed.They seem to meddle in everyone's affairs and then,if it goes right,it's because it was the will of the Tower,if it goes wrong,it's because of everyone else's incompetence.<br /><br />Great theory.It's obvious by now balance is needed to succeed in Randland.Has anyone else noticed how all the good guys have a significant other,while none of the bad guys do?<br /><br />


created: 2004-11-29 16:57:56
subject: <b>Another explanation</b>
body:
Society has been waning since the Trolloc wars, and the AS have been part of it.  Ok, I agree.<br /><br />However, a slight difference of opinion about the why.  The Black Ajah started in the Trolloc wars.  The AS policies have slowly changed to divide the Tower and alienate it from society and my explanation is that the BA and Ishy have been at the heart of it.  Ishy has the mndset and understanding to change the course of history incrementally.  <br /><br />I don't see this as sexism, or lack of balance.  I see enemy action


created: 2004-11-29 19:44:49
subject: <b>The difficulty with that idea, hassman...</b>
body:
Is that there is no available data to support the theory that the dwindling goes back that far.  In fact, 1,200 years after the Trolloc Wars, there were enough people to populate nations which occupied all the land between the Blight, the Aryth Ocean, the Sea of Storms and the Spine of the World, and that was right after a massive world-wide conflict lasting more than a century which devastated civilization to the point that a new calender was needed.  No nations died out or disappeared between the Trolloc Wars and Hawkwing's time, so rather than evidence in support of a 2,000 year fading away, there is actually some evidence against it.  Of course, the population could have been decreasing before Hawkwing's time, but it has tailed off rather sharply in the last millenium.  I'm not saying your suggestion is wrong, simply that there is no evidence to support the theory that this is a 2,000 year trend.  I'm sure that the Black Ajah could very well have played a part in setting White Tower policy on the disastrous course it has taken, but the only supporting evidence you offer is that the population drop aallegedly started with the formation of the Black Ajah, of which I believe there is no evidence.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


created: 2004-11-30 11:49:29
subject: <b>Dwindling, yes. Gender conflict, no.</b>
body:
I think that there is vast support for the notion that humanity, at least in the main part of the world, is dwindling.  If nothing else, this premise convinced Ingtar to turn to the dark side (TGH).  However, I think that there are far more plausible explanations for this change.<br /><br />I don't think it has much to do with gender.  Undoubtedly, the Aes Sedai have cloistered themselves in a stultifying conservatism - but so have other nations and ethnicities.  I think that a better explanation is the simple ebb and flow of dominance between various groups overtime.<br /><br />Seanchan - there can be no doubt that the Seanchan are anything but dwindling.  The Hailene and Corenne are the culmination of a 1000 years of Seanchan hopes and dreams.  They have taken over a third or so of Randland and seem bent on taking more.  Yet the Seanchan are terribly conservative.  Ideas are squelched so thoroughly that deviating from the norm is unthinkable.  The Blood are wholly exalted.  The Empress is basically deified.  There exist whole bunches of Deathwatch guards just waiting to slit their throats when their Lord or Lady dies.  Above all, channelers are not just suppressed - they are commodified.  Women who can channel are stripped of all humanity and collared, their powers absolutely controlled.  The Seanchan seem to explode this theory - they are simply a people whose time has come.<br /><br />The Aiel, too, are deeply conservative.  Things are done a certain way and a healthy disdain is maintained for all Wetlanders.  It doesn't help that their one gesture to the outside world resulted in Laman's folly.  Yet that being said, the Aiel are ascendant.  <br /><br />The same can be said of the Sea Folk and their client people, the Amayar.  I have always tended to think of the Sea Folk as the Aiel with boats.  Nevertheless, they are dedicated to one goal - finding and serving (in their own way) the Coramoor.  They shun contact with outsiders and even often up a &quot;Sacrifice&quot; to maintain their isolation.<br /><br />I think, ultimately, that balance does play into everything.  But I think it can be tied more broadly to the age lace and the turning of the Wheel.  In the Age of Legends, society had progressed to something akin to our real world civilization - at least the First World part of it.  Communication, travel, agriculture, architecture, art, science, etc. had all reached amazing heights.  The Breaking was essentially similar to the effects of a nuclear holocaust -- a long nuclear winter where much of the world is uninhabitable.  It is no surprise that faced with a continually worsening loss of technology, infrastructure and one-half of all channelers that this dwindling occurred.  <br /><br />I imagine that food production alone played a major role in the diminution of humanity.  You cannot support nearly as many people on crops grown in field plowed by oxen as you can with blight resistant &quot;sung&quot; crops.  Also, as transportation and communication break down, it is far more difficult to assert control over far-flung territories.  As the ability to command centrally deteriorates, internecine squabbles flare up.  This focuses everyone on protecting their own.  This is how Ishara managed to hang on to Andor when the world was disintegrating around her; she focused on consolidation. <br /><br />This process is continuing - note that the Two Rivers used to be a regularly visited portion of Andor (at least by tax collectors).  Now, it is an isolated backwater.  The Two Rivers, by the way, also shows that conservatism isn't always an eroding force.  Sometimes conservatism generates throwbacks to sources of power, like Manetheren.  The Aiel, with their unbroken tradition (at least until now) of going to Rhuidean, had a similar unifying force at work in their lives.<br /><br />To me, RJ's world seems to be about life cycles.  The White Tower was born, weathered storms, aged, and rejuvenated.  Now it has undergone mitosis.  Similarly, the Whitecloaks flourished for a season and now are being forced into a different role entirely.  I think the message here is about both adaptability and preserving force.  The world, exposed to the Dark One, has been drastically altered since the AoL.  It is now convulsing in birth pangs, awaiting Rand's triumph at TG and rebirth into a new AoL, or at least the precursor of it.<br /><br />Above all, I think RJ is communicating the need for people to be a part of something greater than themselves, or even their nations.  They need a philosophy, an ethic, that is malleable enough to withstand the wracks of time - which over 3000 years &quot;grinds exceedingly fine&quot; - and is still sufficiently resilient to inspire confidence and unity in its adherents.  Witness the difference Sorilea speaks of between being strong and being hard.  When this ethic fades, so do nations and organizations.  <br /><br />As you point out, the Aes Sedai have matured and become decadent and complacent.  The Whitecloaks are less about spreading Randland's equivalent of the gospel and are more about inventing darkfriends and attaining worldy power.  The nobility of Cairhien, Tear and, to a lesser extent, Andor, have become fat and ineffectual.  Their life cycle is approaching an end and they must be recast and reborn.  The Seanchan, Aiel, the Sea Folk, the Two Rivers folk, the new refugees in the Two Rivers -- they are all reaching their primes and breathing new life into decrepit institutions.<br /><br />This is why Rand must learn how to laugh and cry again.  If he does not, the world remade in his image will be hard and brittle, not strong and vibrant.  This is what Sorilea, Cadsuane, Moiraine understand and what Mat, Perrin, Min, Egwene and Berelain sense.<br /><br />(I just don't see gender playing that big a role here.  Yes, it is everywhere, but the differences are sufficient to cancel out most of the points you make.  However, I do think that if the women had gotten the Taint, things would have turned out differently, if only because men cannot link with each other without a woman.)


created: 2004-11-30 12:59:30
subject: <b>well...</b>
body:
the shadow rising is the book after the great hunt.  lord of chaos is book six.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;It's ridiculous to suggest that a team could go through a season in our league without losing. It's comical, just comical.&quot; Alex Ferguson 27th September 2002<br /><br />gooner...red and white army...<br /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gimli.gif" border="0" /> my soulmate<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/clown.gif" border="0" /> my nemesis</font><p></p>


created: 2004-11-30 14:25:30
subject: <b>I agree with some of what you said, but not all.</b>
body:
Specifically the part about things being a lot worse if men had not been Tainted and the women had.  The very chaos that you talk about is what was going on in Seanchan before Hawkwing sent his son there.  I think that this is evidence that the women could be just as bad as the men channelers, and the men would've had the possibility of making their own organization that stabilized large regions.


created: 2004-12-01 20:14:46
subject: <b>Some responses...</b>
body:
To Fisher King:  Who says the Seanchan squelch ideas and innovation?  All we know is they have a caste society with a rigid hierarchy.  This is not automatic proof of conservatism, and the one sure example we have of the Seanchan is that they are continuously adapting their military tactics and doctrine to meet changes in their opponents.  The real world parallells of conservative caste societies don't really hold up, because the Seanchan has the damane and the genuine loyalty of the people (enforced by the Crystal Throne, which is an awe-inspiring ter'angreal).  The Aiel may be conservative in some ways, but the point is their leaders are magically selected for adaptability, and their glass columns prevent them from losing sight of their original purpose, or at least the role they need to play.<br />Like the Aiel, the Sea Folk are isolated, but again, that is not a stagnant society.  They are secretive, out of a perceived necessity, and to protect their advantages.  Our culture likes to portray stagnation and conservatism as linked and isolation is portrayed the same way.  These are merely cultural prejudices of our time which don't really apply in a world with supernatural aids to cheat social entropy (i.e. ter'angreal to preserve your culture, Windfinders and damane to give you a competitive advantage).  In the big white book, the Sea Folk are held in direct contrast to the conservatism of the &quot;shorebound&quot; who don't develop ships and sailing techniques capable of challenging the Sea Folk.<br /><br />My point was that the Aes Sedai aren't adhering to anything bigger than themselves, they simply look inward and keep entrenching themselves further in an untenable position.  Their dominance of the world enforces that outlook to some extent on the rest.  Artur Hawkwing was a great hero and leader, who saved the White Tower and his hostility maybe directly attributed to Bonwhin's unspecified &quot;manipulations&quot; for which she was stilled.  The Tower almost certainly would never condone another Hawkwing though, because of the danger he would possess to their authority.  Even Rand says he would never have been able to make the changes he needed to without the Tower being taken out of the picture.  And nealry every time an Aes Sedai advises him on politics, he ignores her and it works better than they would have expected.  Moiraine would have got him tied up in an internecine war with a powerful Forsaken with a personal grudge.  She tried to disuade him from going after leadership of the Aiel despite the prophecy that seemed to refer to them (leads the SPEARS to war once more - when talking about wetlander armies, it would certainly have said swords, which are a symbol of war).  The sole reason for this was, MOIRAINE could not imagine a use for them, because the Tower had no influence and could not dominate them.  If they don't know it, the Aes Sedai pretend it doesn't exist.  The civil war in the Tower is a case in point - from the Aes Sedai PoV, they are NECESSARY to keep order and guide the nations properly, but they are so focussed on the Tower, which they see as vitally important(both side keep saying &quot;we have to unite to save the world, the Tower must be whole for TG&quot; ), that they are neglecting their self-asumed &quot;responsibilities&quot; to the rest of the world.  An inherent paradox imposed by their insular world-view!<br /><br />To all you knee-jerk male defenders: I'm not saying men are inherently violent, I'm saying in WoT, there are certain assumptions one can make about gender differences, and in many ways these are embodied in saidar (tranquil, peaceful, co-operative, women feel kinship and can easily discern a channeler and her strength) and saidin (chaotic, uncooperative, men feel &quot;menace&quot; when another man is channeling, etc).  These are generalizations about men and women: women communicate better, and men communicate better with women than they do with each other.  Women are naturally cooperative, men are naturally competitive, and so on.  Another generalization in this chain of thought, is that women instinctively protect their own, while men align themselves with something outside, and bigger.  Look how the Towers formed: Pre-existing co-operative groups of women came together to build aplace to nuture and train their &quot;offspring&quot; so to speak (and ruthlessly eliminated all outsiders); A leader gathered men loyal to his cause and gave them practical training to serve his purposes and obey.  The WT's focus is on nuturing and training Aes Sedai - a training fatality is a grevious loss.  For the BT, the focus is on making men useful to the cause, and too bad about the ones who get broken while being hammered into the design.  The factions in the BT are built around cults of personality, whereas the WT factions are influenced by millenia-old grudges (&quot;...Women forgive, but never forget...&quot; - Thom Merrilin).  I am not making value judgments on either outlook, simply pointing out the WoT view of gender roles, and I believe a civilization dominated by male channelers would not solve its disputes in as civilized a manner, but would be more dynamic and advanced (at least intellectually and technologically - women prefer not to rock the boat, and can be more hesitant about introducing new ideas which upset the status quo, while men are more accomplishment-oriented, with less concern for the consequences).  The &quot;Westlands&quot; however, would more likely resemble late Renaissance Europe - a shifting mass of countries with widely different cultures, competing desperately for economic and political advantages and going faster and to a greater extent. In this hypothetical alternate world, She-Rand (Latra Posae reborn? ) would have a great deal more trouble getting the nations to unite and cooperate and her problem would be not goading the (male) Aes Sedai into action, but restraining them to keep them from going off half-cocked like LTT did.  I don't make the rules here - I'm just trying to project according to how I perceive them working in WoT.  Rand must dominate the world to make it follow him, as he must dominate saidin.  The female &quot;Cutter of the Shadow Reborn&quot; would have to guide a more fractious world into a more ordered and stable society to cooperate against the Dark One, just as she would have to guide saidin by surrendering to it.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


created: 2004-12-01 22:02:07
subject: <b>A very well-written theory</b>
body:
I hope to see the AS get back to what they originally were in the AOL, &#8220;Servants of All.&#8221; The AS of the present time are not Aes Sedai in the true sense of the word. Rather they are manipulators of thrones, etc. Instead of climbing the slippery slope (the Pattern, Wheel, etc.), they are trying to make the slippery slope change to their ideas. While they are doing this they are gradually falling back down the slope. Instead of going out into their world and helping the sick and injured, etc. they are sitting in their Tower and plotting and maneuvering. This makes the rest of the populace fear and mistrust them, not love and respect them. If they could get love and respect they could increase their novice population as more women would want to be tested to see if they could be AS. (A quasi-return to the AOL when everyone dealt respectfully with each other, or so we hear.)There are a lot more women out there who can channel than they think. I can&#8217;t remember the exact quote, but remember when the Seanchan invaded at Falme? They tested every woman to see if they could channel and took away quite a few. And those were only the ones with the spark born in them. That doesn&#8217;t take into account the ones who could learn. <br /><br />I would like to see Jordan move the sexes out of their stereotypes that he has established in these books and into a more loving relationship with each other. And by &quot;loving&quot; I don't mean romance. I mean a healthy respect and admiration of the other sex. To me the clashes between the sexes is a huge downfall in the series that prevent me from enjoying them as much as I wish I could. True, everything and everyone can't be perfect, but I would like him to present some more &quot;nice&quot; people in the books like Min, or ...or... Well I can't really think of anyone else that doesn't have some sort of agenda that they will do practically anything to achieve.<br /><br />Sorry about the ranting.<br /><br />good theory<br /><br />and I'm out<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Ehhxxxhilennnt&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2004-12-04 05:09:24
subject: <b>looks very good, but you missed 1 thing to further prove another point you made</b>
body:
why are the channeling population down to 1%, yuo made a lot of proof, but one key factor is that the aes sedai of this age is a lot more centralized in the tower, and they arent exactly known for adding to the population of the lands (giving birth).<br />whereas aes-sedai in the age of legends seemed to be a lot more decentralized, and probably proliferated a lot more


created: 2004-12-05 16:03:51
subject: <b>Generalising to WOT women bashing....sort of..</b>
body:
Now you say that women cooperate and communicate better. That is just plain false. But perhaps in a sort of wisted way a redress of the balance in the women dominated world. <br /><br />Abby( has already said far better than I could so I will quote(plus I'm lazy ^.^). <br /><br />&quot;The strong virtues that you mentioned in these female characters--strength, independence, equanimity--are all virtues that the male protagonists have, as well. But the male characters are less likely to withhold information from allies, browbeat their friends, make unwise decisions, or deny responsibility for their own errors in judgment. Both Perrin and Mat are always forthright with their allies and their armies, and they make a point of informing their people what danger lies ahead. When Nynaeve and Elayne were in Ebou Dar and Tarabon, they specifically kept their male allies in the dark about what was going on. Elayne, Nynaeve, Aviendha, and Min all obsess over their clothing--what to wear, when to wear it, who's wearing what--while important events are taking place. The male characters stay focused on the important events. When a bunch of the female protagonists get together in a group, it seems they are always bickering about who gives orders and who takes responsibility. The male protagonists just fall into a hierarchy without a problem, with the exception of Mat's attitude toward Rand when Mat had the Shadar Logoth dagger. Lastly, the male characters feel more sorrow, guilt, and agony over the destruction that they cause. Mat feels guilty about the Seanchan Windfinders that destroyed Ebou Dar. Rand chants a list of every woman he's ever killed. Perrin feels terrible that his kinsman have to die for the causes that he fights for Rand. Meanwhile, Egwene lays seige to Tar Valon and barely spares a thought for the killing that will result. Elayne leads a war for her own status, and she seems more focused on taking a bath than how many soldiers might die. And I just realized now--the female characters lead wars against potential allies, while the male characters only fight Darkfriends or Seanchan. &quot;<br />From: http://www.abbygoldsmith.com/articles/wot-Sexism-rebuttals.html<br /><br />While I do think is some ways what she says is a bit extreme, it is still true in general.


created: 2005-04-09 19:46:58
subject: <b>I pretty much agree with everything you say but...</b>
body:
why does all that contribute to the declining population of the wetlands?<br />Population decline is very simple...more ppl die than are born and survive to adulthood. Many of the Real World factors aren't factors in Wotworld. People are generally more healthy than the RW counterparts of the 17th century (RJ's model). We don't hear much about infant mortality, large area plagues, women dieing in childbirth (for the most part...Shaiel is a noteworthy exception) etc. I also think that famine isn't a particular heavy killer it the wetlands, we hear of people going hungry but very few starving. Finally there have been few wars to cull the population. War being the greatest of all killers not only because of the battles, but because of the famine and pestulance it fosters. <br />So why are the Westlands (excepting the Aiel and possibly the Sharans) declining in population? They really shouldn't be. I would say the answer is simple...RJ wants it that way.<br />NaCl(the AS are everything you said they are...but you can't blame declining population on them)H2O <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Any comments on my photos appreciated</font><p><a href="http://saltwater.smugmug.com/" target="_blank">My photos, a work in progress</a></p><p></p>


created: 2004-11-27 13:46:48
subject: <b>Sounds right to me.</b>
body:
The Healing weave has always been described as one of the most complex, and I think you've done a great job of showing that. Strength in the Power and dexterity due to that, has long been established as well, IMO. (Healing as a Talent is a given.) Taking all of those factors and tying them together, I can think of nothing to dispute your claim.<br /><br />Good job, sidious! Thumbs up from me.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2004-11-27 15:47:07
subject: <b>All I want to know iw...</b>
body:
How do we know Semirhage is stronger than Nyneave... thats not quite for certain.  Though it is totally possible she is.


created: 2004-11-27 16:35:15
subject: <b>One thing:</b>
body:
I agree, and very much, with almost everything, except: Sumeko is better at Healing than Nynaeve. In fact, at one point, Sumeko says that Nynaeve's Healing weaves are clumsy.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">http://www.orkut.com/Profile.aspx?uid=4841668765074332965<br /><br />&quot;It's like God gave you the tools to build a house, and the blueprint is in you. Just remember to use rubber gloves.&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2004-11-27 16:47:36
subject: <b>to Zehguga..... and a few other thoughts.....</b>
body:
<b>I agree, and very much, with almost everything, except: Sumeko is better at Healing than Nynaeve. In fact, at one point, Sumeko says that Nynaeve's Healing weaves are clumsy.</b><br /><br />Ny has been healing for very few years....and even fewer with cognizant effort.... Sumeko has been Healing for hundreds of years.... Ny will surpass her.<br /><br />I agree with Sidious' theory...voted yes..<br /><br /><br />A few points..<br />1. I believe ny will be Stronger in the OP since her use of the Choedan Kal....stronger...not just at her potential.<br /><br />2. I see Ny, Samitsu, Corele and Damer Flinn doing a bit of teaching/study/research in the time leading up to the &quot;meeting&quot;. Ny will grow in skill to a vast degree during this time..<br /><br />3. I wonder if Semi will capture Ny and train her to be the 2nd best Healer then try to use a few Fades... <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/myrddraal.gif" border="0" /> to help turn her... <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/oh.gif" border="0" />  Just a bit of speculation...Can you imagine having to learn all Semi wants to teach...while collared with an a'dam and Semi using all her &quot;skills&quot; at persuasion?  ::: <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/oh.gif" border="0" />  :shudder:<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>you know you can't leave Wotmania. It's kinda like herpes, you can just never really get rid of it.</i><br />Kit <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /></font><p><a href="http://www.cbgxtra.com/" target="_blank">Comics Buyer's Guide XTRA</a></p><p></p>


created: 2004-11-27 18:48:28
subject: <b>True, but remember difference between male &amp; female</b>
body:
I agree, however there also is the point of female channelers being more dexterious overall than male channelers. It might be that in healing, female dexterity and male strength cancel each other out in channelers of equal talent and skill.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Incantrix <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-11-28 08:50:38
subject: <b>I agree as well</b>
body:
To become a <i> really great </i> Healer, you also have to be strong in the One Power.<br /><br />One remark, though.<br />You say about Mat's Healing that &quot;none of the sisters in the circle were of the Yellow ajah.&quot;  <br /><br />It were ten sisters in the circle.<br />Only eight of them are identified (and it's correct that none of them is a Yellow).<br />So, it's at least possible that the other two AS were Yellows.


created: 2004-11-28 14:35:52
subject: <b>I agree for the most part</b>
body:
But how do we know Semi is stronger than Nynaeve? She could be though. <br />I think strength has a part to play in healing, though. <br />Adn Cadsuane's comment about how strong Samitsu(sp) it doesnt really mean much. She was trying to boost Samitsu's self confedence.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br /><br /> <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-11-28 17:23:38
subject: <b>Not only Sumeko</b>
body:
There are a number of the Kin who have supposedly outstripped Nyn in healing ability, and while they all used Healing in their work as Wise Women it seems that real study only began when they came to Caemlyn.


created: 2004-11-28 22:54:35
subject: <b>Verin weak in the power?</b>
body:
Much of your theory is good and makes a lot of sense.  However, I think that Verin is considered to be one of the strongest channelers in the tower, up there with Moiraine and Suiane.  Are you sure that she is weak?  I think she is just weak when it comes to healing, not the power, which would change her category according to your theory.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Peace is only found through victory, and fools aspire to peace and freedom without cost.</font><p></p>


created: 2004-11-29 10:31:10
subject: <b>This needed posting?</b>
body:
While I agree that this was a very well thought out and researched post, I thoguht it was pretty obvious.  I agree 100% with this theory, as I inferred it all from reading the clues that were referenced in the theory.  One thing is that an above poster mentioned that the female healers are more dexterious than the males.  I don't remember which book, probably somewhere between 6-7 (I know , not very narrowed down) someone says that in the AoL males had better skills at healing than females, which Nynaeve considered to be proposterous.


created: 2004-11-29 13:49:24
subject: <b>Nynaeve WILL be stronger!</b>
body:
How long a time has passed by in the series since nynaeve started to channel? I`m not quite shure, but i do not believe it to be more then 3 or 4 years... I dont think she is anywhere near her potensial. My reason? This is my reason: In New spring, I think it is when Moiraine attacks Merean at the end of the book, she thinks something like this: &quot;Even with the surprise, she wasnt shure if she would be able to shield Merean while she was holding the power. She would be stronger than Merean eventually, but that was 4 or 5 years from now...&quot; You see? that was after Moiraine had reached the shawl! I think Nynaeve will definately be stronger than Semirhage...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perplexed.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smackhead.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /> LLT <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-11-29 16:32:09
subject: <b>I&#180;m sry...</b>
body:
I know what i have written above is probalbly really wrong, but Moiraine says something svery similar somewhere in New Spring...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perplexed.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smackhead.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /> LLT <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-11-30 12:04:26
subject: <b>Great Theory</b>
body:
This theory is incredibly well organized and articulated.  You do an excellent job of stating your case, drawing conclusions and marking out its deficiencies.  Well done.<br /><br />My sole criticism relates to the Healing of Mat from the taint of the Shadar Logoth Dagger.  Note that the Aes Sedai first sought to break the bond and only then could repair the damage it had done.  Unlike normal wounds, infirmities occasioned by a brush with the Shadar Logoth taint contain their own active evil.  Thus the circle was not merely reknitting bone, sinew and flesh, it had to dispel a powerful, malevolent force from Mat in order to restore him to health.  The argument can be made that this is what required so much of the power.  Note that even the best male healer, Damer, could only cordon off Rand's Shadar Logoth wound.  Once the connection was broken between Mat and the Dagger, he could be Healed normally.  Granted, this was a difficult Healing because of the extremely adverse effects of the Dagger, but was still probably a normal procedure.<br /><br />That being said, I think you are probably right.  I was just concerned that Mat's Healing did not offer as much support as you derived from it.


created: 2004-11-30 18:33:24
subject: <b>I agree but...</b>
body:
The example of Mat may be off.  I'm pretty sure that any talent with Healing wasn't even involved in the removal of the connection to the dagger.  Although I agree completely with what you said, I'm just fairly certain that Mat wasn't an accurate example.  I think what they did with him was more similar to the cleansing of Saidin than healing.  I could be wrong, I haven't read the books in a while.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">One day I'll have a quote to put you all to shame.</font><p></p>


created: 2004-12-01 08:17:30
subject: <b>I agree for the most part...</b>
body:
Just so you all know, this is my first post ever. I've been a member for maybe two years, but I'm the lurking type.<br /><br /> This is a great post. I agree with Sid's thoughts on healing and the OP but I don't feel that Mat and The Dagger were nessisarily a prime example of this. On that point I whole heartedly agree with DreamStalker.<br /><br /> It is my thought, that The Dagger's effect on Mat, and Fain for that matter is more of a &quot;Corruption&quot; of the soul. Actually more of a &quot;Cancer of the soul&quot;. My bases for this is in tDR, and I belive it was Siuan who said something to the effect of having to &quot;Cut it out&quot; or &quot;Dig it out&quot;.<br /> <br />Leading me to the conclusion this was what may have directly left holes in his soul/memory only to be filled by past lives or close threads to his thread in the pattern/lace?<br /><br /> My understanding or as I see it, Healing, as it is in this Age, is more of a forced regeneration. Hence Moiraine's comment on Healing coming as much from the Healer as the Healed. Resulting in hunger to replace what was used of &quot;The Self&quot;.<br /><br />Great post, thanks for drawing me out of the Lurking Closet.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Remember Ralphie, if your nose is bleeding your picking your nose too much!...or not enough&quot;. ~Chief Wiggem</font><p></p>


created: 2004-12-01 15:58:58
subject: <b>Addressing concerns</b>
body:
Thanks for the compliments guys<br /><br />I see the recurrent argument here is to do with Mat and his dagger. I was in two minds about using it as evidence for my theory because I realised this criticism was inevitable.<br /><br />The only reason I added it was that the Aes Sedai refer to the process as Healing. Selene also comments that the side-effects of the process are hunger and that the contribution comes from the patient. Very similar to healing but also difficult to interpret because the evil of SL also caused Mat to waste away.<br /><br />Anyway , I'm more than willing to accept that Mat's evidence is tenuous but I believe there is still a sea of evidence to use for the conclusions about Healing and Strength.<br /><br />Until then ...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">A One Power researcher<br />Defender of Lanfear<br />Grand Ninja-Nae'blis to be feared <br />Original Warder to Isa <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br />New Warder to Nossie <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />Toy to Seriana <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/winky.gif" border="0" /><br />Mystified by a Fan <br />Bonded Phelix - I was young, it happened so fast.</font><p></p>


created: 2007-10-25 16:25:13
subject: <b>What about Siuan(New Strength)</b>
body:
Siuan still has the exact Talent and capacity for healing in her new very lkow strength in the power as she did with her old High Strength.   Moiraine and Siuan were well matched, but Moiraine far outstripped her in Healing-even outstripped Cadsuane who is way stronger.<br /><br />So Healing, I think, is a Talent and doesn't have anything to do with strength, per se


created: 2007-11-08 13:23:56
subject: <b>Siuan(New Strength) Part Two</b>
body:
I was going to bring that up.   Mooiraine and Siuan, when raised, were both strong in the Power, and both could Heal greatly(I don't remember where it ever said that Moi outranked Siuan in Healing)  Siuan's New Strength, though, is very near the bottom, yet she can Heal as well as she did.  (Off note-Verin can Heal mildly-but Sheriam, almost as stong as Moi, can heal little more than bruise)<br /><br />So, I think Healing is a Talent and has nothing to do with strength in the Power-after all Caddy is quite strong in The Power and cannot Heal very well at all!


created: 2008-03-06 01:55:46
subject: <b>Rand</b>
body:
What about that time in SR (I think) when Rand heals Mat, I reckon Rand should be place a level up not just that he has great strength but he must have had some ability to heal what was near the brink of death.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2008-05-11 09:49:31
subject: <b>Heling and Strength</b>
body:
My best guess is that One Power Talents determines your Dexterity when useing THAT PARTICULAR TALENT. An other pointer may be thatevery channeler has a maximum potential, and possibly a general dexterity when weaving, and here is where Talents come into play: A great Healer such as Nynaeve has tremendeous dexterity when weaving Healing waves, but as Cadsuan points out her skill with most other sorts of weaves are poor.


created: 2004-11-28 11:39:43
subject: <b>Why not keep it simple.</b>
body:
Ok I thought you theory was exellent. Why didnt Ishmael just go to the Eye on his own and use up the power in what ever way he say fit. ANd now i will anwswer myself. First he would have to find the eye and if the eye dosent want to be found it isnt right?<br />ANd secondly it wouldnt have added anything to the story for him to keep it simple and to not be manipulating poeple.<br />One last thing for them to have been premature in the use of the eye then that would mean that they werent meant to have the Horn and the Dragon Banner until later...and I dont believe that is true. SO if you can explain that away ....bc I cant think of anything....  then I will accecpt that you are 100% right.


created: 2004-11-28 14:27:06
subject: <b>The destroing of Trolloc's army was a &quot;side-effect&quot;</b>
body:
1) I agree that the Eye is some sort of the well. That's given.<br /><br />2) Maybe blinding the Eye wasn't the sole puprose, maybe it was a trap, maybe DO wants Rand to taste saidin that he starts channeling. Maybe all above. There are various possible explanations of the Eye. The things is - it holds the Banner, the Horn and the Seal. That's the first thing to announce to the world - the Last Battle coming, here is the Dragon. It allows the Dragon recognize himself, to show him a non-tainted saidin, to force him start channeling.<br /><br />3) Destroying Trollocs was not planned by Rand or Moiraine or Aol Aes Sedai. It's side-effect if you will.  It's just a lucky day that Trollocs were nearby <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />.<br /><br />4) I don't see how destroying the Eye will have &quot;dire consequences&quot; after several years. Unless you meant that Dragon appeared, the Last Battle is coming...


created: 2004-11-28 14:27:49
subject: <b>I dont think we can take most of TEOTW for truth</b>
body:
The minor details werent worked out for an (about) 12 book series.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br /><br /> <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-11-28 16:17:46
subject: <b>Very interesting</b>
body:
So... Luring the ta'veren there, so the duo could find the eye. Then drawing from the eye, to make Rand do so as well... And dire consequences? Possibly. If you're right, and the well was meant for another purpose, that should mean dire consequences. Hmm.. where would a well that big be needed (remember need being the key to finding it)? SG, possibly?<br /><br />But if it's a well, it should be possible to refill it. How that would be done is another matter.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">The only way to convince me is by providing some evidence!</font><p></p>


created: 2004-11-28 17:45:02
subject: <b>Why do they need the Eye anymore?</b>
body:
The whole purpose of the eye was to have a source of pure saidin.  Unless there is a problem with the cleansing, all saidin is now pure.  The Eye would be useless now.


created: 2004-11-28 17:49:52
subject: <b>here's what i think</b>
body:
in the aol the aes sedai probably didn't forsee any way to clear the taint, the eye was needed for a source of power that was clean when the time came.  i think it was suposoed to be used to reseal the prison after the seals have all worn away.  this is because tainted sadin can only destroy, not build.  also, the bannar and horn were not suposoed to be used until the last battle also.  i think the dragon was suposoed to proclaim himself when he led the march to shouyl ghul, this way the shadow wouldn't know who the dragon was until it was too late.  it would be the ultimate surprise attack.  the as in the aol also thought people would have immediatly supported rand, as they would have in the aol, united instead of sepreate countries fighting each other.


created: 2004-11-28 19:16:06
subject: <b>Banner and Horn Not Necessary</b>
body:
If Rand had not used the eye, the pattern probably would have found another way to get him the dragon banner.  For example, Selene could given one Rand.  Also, the horn has not yet been used for its intended purpose of summoning the heroes for the last battle.  So while the horn and banner moved the plot along, it was probably not necessary for Rand to have them at the exact point he did.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br />


created: 2004-11-28 20:55:48
subject: <b>Response to responses:</b>
body:
Ems: What do you mean we shouldn't take it as truth?  Regardless that the feel of the first three books is different than the later books, they were still written by the same guy, so what makes you think you can put words into RJ's mouth and tell us that he decided to throw out the background he'd written when he moved further into the series.  Yes, climax as the Eye in tEoTW is presented differently than it would be today, but if you look around this site, there's a very nice translation someone did as to what is assumed happened in Tel'aran'rhiod at the end of the very first book.  Go find it.  Furthermore, i like how it stands today, because as the characters learn more about what is really going on, the author describes it in greater and greater detail.  It's a learning curve, and just because you've (and the rest of us too) have moved beyond it, don't dispair that it served it's purpose.<br /><br />DrunkenUno:  Good point.  Here's a thought, what if the disasterous consequence is that people begin to lose the ability to channel?  (I'm sure the thought has been mentioned before elsewhere)  SO maybe the purpose of the eye was not to be pure sadin, but to be sadin that was reachable?  Just a random thought that has to support.<br /><br />Khayman89:  Just because something will have 'dire consequences,' don't forget this: it is part of the pattern, and what is suposed to happen, happened.  The first, and biggest, hole in your idea is the fact that (though we don't find out about it until early in book 2) as early as book 1, the wheel was pushing for the Dragon Reborn to come forward, announcing himself, and it kept throwing up false dragons.  (read the conversation between Moiraine and the Amyrlin Seat at the beginning of tGH for more details.)  The dragon was supposed to go forth.  Secondly, the Shadow already knew that The Dragon was there; they may not have know how old he was, but they knew he was alive (see New Spring: The Novel).  Thirdly, the Horn was supposed to be blown at the end of tGH; Hawkwing himself says that he feels constrained from riding out until certain conditions are met, the dragon and the banner.  THis means that the use of the Horn is constrained to very very specific times (and that's another post, asking whether those conditions are universal) but when they are met then it's supposed to happen.  And lastly, what do you mean when you say that tained sadin can ONLY destroy?  The taint lay on top of the sadin, and male channelers had to go through it to use the one power, but it didn't change the nature of the one power itself.  Sadin could be used for good or evil as the channeler saw fit (depending on his attitude and sanity, of course).


created: 2004-11-29 06:27:10
subject: <b>just a thought</b>
body:
as i was reading a thought came to me <br /><br />every time a seal is found it happens when good and evil meet <br />when good wins the seal remains intact but when the bad guys win it breaks <br /><br />so doesnt this mean that the shadow won at the eye <br />just a thoght


created: 2004-11-29 10:39:06
subject: <b>hrmmm</b>
body:
I thought the even that would have dire consequence would be that Doman and Eagainin did not destroy the &quot;male a'dam&quot;  but instead had it confiscated, if I am not mistaken, which I very well may be, by Suroth (a known Darkfriend) herself.  This is an interesting post, but several of the commenters bring up salient points.<br />So as useless as this comment may be, I no longer have any idea, at the least you have given me pause in my belief if what the event was.


created: 2004-11-29 17:18:20
subject: <b>Even Moiraine wonders if the Eye was misused ....</b>
body:
since it was created for &quot;mankind's greatest hour of need&quot;, IIRC, then it was almost certainly not used as it was intended. <br /><br />Here's a scenario I mentioned on the MB the other day: Rand has successfully defeated every Forsaken, and now he comes face-to-face with Shadar Haran. This is bad news since the Super Fade has the ability to cut off the True Source from channelers. This leaves Rand having to face him in a sword fight, while Shadar Haran can still tap the TP. Hardly a fair fight. <br /><br />Too bad Rand doesn't have access to a well of pure saidin to counter with. Oh wait! He did! Except he used the Eye up already, and <i>now</i> is the hour of mankind's greatest need! <br /><br />Is this the kind of &quot;dire consequences&quot; you had in mind when you wrote this? If it is, then I can agree.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2004-11-29 17:41:10
subject: <b>Another book after KoD</b>
body:
If the dire consequence is going to happen in the next book, I hardly think Rand will have killed all of the Forsaken, and gone one-on-one with Shaidar Haran by the end of KoD.


created: 2004-11-29 18:01:24
subject: <b>Many responses</b>
body:
Thanks, everyone, for your comments.  I submitted this theory a little over two months ago, when I first came to this site, and just when I'd given up hope that it would ever be posted, it popped up.  However, I realized that several things about it were out of date.  First and foremost, upon looking a bit closer at the critical chapters, I realized that it was quite clear what Aginor and Balthamel's orders were:<br /><br />&quot;Ba'alzamon will give rewards beyond mortal dreaming for the one who brings you to Shayol Ghul.&quot;  (TEOTW, paperback ed., p 755)<br /><br />That is their task, but Aginor has other things on his mind.  Namely, the use of the Eye to renew his body.<br /><br />&quot; 'Now that I have found what I need' -- his eyes went to the stone archway...&quot; (TEOTW, p750)<br /><br />So Ishy sent the two Forsaken at his disposal out in the world to bring Rand to Shayol Ghul.  The fact that the boys were at the Eye seemed to be pure gravy for Aginor, who appears to not be able to use the &quot;filtered&quot; saidin to renew his body.  The untainted saidin in the Eye was another story.<br /><br />So I think it's safe to say that it was pure coincidence that Aginor and Balthamel found Rand at the Eye.  The whole &quot;blind the Eye of the World&quot; plot by Ishy seems to be completely unrelated to Rand's showdown with the two Forsaken.  Look at it this way -- if Rand used the Eye prematurely, no matter <i>what</i> he did with it, even kill Ishy, would be just fine if it was out of the way... after all, Ishy could always be reincarnated.  This is apparent even in the first book.  <br /><br />&quot;Soon the Great Lord of the Dark will be free, and give us new flesh...&quot;  (TEOTW, p749)<br /><br />sir lego:<br /><b>One last thing for them to have been premature in the use of the eye then that would mean that they werent meant to have the Horn and the Dragon Banner until later...and I dont believe that is true.</b> <br /> <br />One possibility is that Ishy didn't know what was inside the Eye.  This is a bit unlikely, however, because we know Ishy was active for the forty years after the Bore was sealed.  There is another possibility, but for this to work, you have to consider to what extent Ishy knew the DO's grand master plan.  First, the Horn seems more like a curiosity to the Forsaken.  Since it doesn't appear in the Prophecies, it seems likely that the Horn was more like a curious artifact in the AOL (some people have speculated that the Horn only works in certain Ages).  Lanfear certainly shrugs it off in TGH.  So perhaps Ishy considered the Horn unimportant.  Now, about the Dragon banner.  The only affect this could really have, as we saw from TGH and TDR, is for Rand to proclaim himself the Dragon.  However, this spirals to only good things for the Shadow -- namely, the &quot;Let the Lord of Chaos Rule&quot; plan.  If you think that Ishy knew the master plan of the DO, all the way back in TEOTW (which is certainly plausible), then it wouldn't have really mattered to Ishy had Rand obtained the items in the Eye.<br /><br /><b>I don't see how destroying the Eye will have &quot;dire consequences&quot; after several years.</b><br /><br />I know it's tenuous, but it seems to me that the Eye had some larger purpose than just containing the Horn and the Banner.  Think of it like this.  It seems that the properties of the Green Man's garden prevented Darkfriends, Forsaken, the Blight et al from entering.  Aginor implies that Mat's dagger is what lets them in the place.  So this seems like a pretty good protection for such important items like the Horn and Banner.  Chuck them in a stasis box, tell the Green Man to watch over them.  Done and done.  But no, that's not what they did.  Many Aes Sedai gave their lives to create the Eye.  It seems rather a waste of life to just put it there to protect some items when the Eye could be used by any male channeler that entered the place.  Besides, Ishy wanted Rand there for a purpose.  What would that have been but draining the Eye, which Rand would need later for some greater purpose?<br /><br />ems: <br /><b>I dont think we can take most of TEOTW for truth...The minor details werent worked out for an (about) 12 book series.</b><br /><br />Actually, I think pretty much everything can be explained just fine from the final scene, which probably contains the most discrepancies.  Many times, Rand isn't aware of what he is doing in the early books.  In TDR, he doesn't even recognize that he channeled at all.  First, Rand Travels to Tarwin's Gap.  Destroys the army.  All pretty straightforward.  The only real ambiguous part of the scene is the following passage:<br /><br />&quot;Steps rose before him, each standing alone and unsupported, stretching up into the murk that obscured the sun.&quot; (TEOTW, p758 )<br /><br />Well, the only plausible location for the final confrontation with Ishy is in T'A'R.  These steps, to me, sound like a T'A'R construct.  Rand is really being guided by the Pattern, or the Creator, or whatever it is that he does that makes him channel correctly in the early books.  He opens a gateway into T'A'R directly from Tarwin's Gap (which, remember, is difficult to see).  Because Rand doesn't know anything about T'A'R, the steps are a sort of projection of his view of &quot;reality&quot; upon the strange world of T'A'R.  Compare this to Rand's first experience with the Skimming Place in TSR:<br /><br />&quot;Plain gray stone steps rose in front of him, each step hanging unsupported, arching out until they dwindled from sign.  He had seen these before, or their like; somehow he knew they would take him where he had to go.&quot; (TSR, paperback ed., p965)<br /><br />Straight from the text, these &quot;steps&quot; are Rand's projection of reality into a world that he doesn't understand.  Once Rand sees Asmo Skimming along properly, he learns and corrects himself.  But observing what Ishy and Rahvin do in T'A'R, he learns about that place, too.  Of course, RJ will always make mistakes, such as in TSR when Rand Skims, it's described as a door, not the usual sideways flash of light, etc.  Nobody's perfect.<br /><br />DrunkenUno:<br /><b>The whole purpose of the eye was to have a source of pure saidin. Unless there is a problem with the cleansing, all saidin is now pure. The Eye would be useless now. </b><br /><br />Of course, but the Aes Sedai who created the Eye knew of a way to cleanse saidin.  Therefore, they knew it wasn't impossible.  Remember, the basis of the Eye and the things in it were from a Foretelling by Aes Sedai in the AOL:<br /><br />&quot; 'What good is your Foretelling,' Oselle was almost shouting, 'if you cannot tell us when?'  Her long black hair swayed as she shook with anger.  'The world rests on this!  The future!  The Wheel itself!' &quot; (TSR, p427)<br /><br />So while this could very well be referring to the Horn and the Banner, it is also plausible that the Eye itself was supposed to serve some purpose.  I said above why the Eye seems a redundant protection for the items.<br /> <br />ashtrey843:<br /><b>I thought the even that would have dire consequence would be that Doman and Eagainin did not destroy the &quot;male a'dam&quot; but instead had it confiscated...</b><br /><br />Yeah, that's definitely a viable option.  Elayne and Nyn did seem rather thick-skulled into handing the a'dam over to some people they barely knew.  I'm just throwing out there the option of the Eye.  I think that the Eye is just as likely, for one reason because it seems to have been rather neglected and unexplained, and deserves a revisit by RJ.


created: 2004-11-29 18:04:06
subject: <b>I like this theory</b>
body:
You presented it very well , but I can't agree with it.<br /><br />RJ said that he made the first book like it was because he was planning for a trilogy - if he was lucky. I can't believe that he would put this fact into the first book on the off chance that there would be an 11th book to reveal a dire consequence.<br /><br />However , I also agree that it was a well of saidin. It brings me to my second point which disagrees with your theory. The Aes Sedai in the AOL made the Eye because of a foretelling which they had about the Dragon Reborn. Therefore it had to come true. There is no way in which Rand could have used it incorrectly - the foretellings are always fulfilled. <br /><br />My final point is the ultimate proof against the theory. The Eye was filled with objects of great importance like Lews Therin's banner , the seal and the Horn of Valere. If they didn't get their hands on these objects at this point of the story , things might have been difficult for them , especially at Falme.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">A One Power researcher<br />Defender of Lanfear<br />Grand Ninja-Nae'blis to be feared <br />Original Warder to Isa <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br />New Warder to Nossie <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />Toy to Seriana <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/winky.gif" border="0" /><br />Mystified by a Fan <br />Bonded Phelix - I was young, it happened so fast.</font><p></p>


created: 2004-11-29 18:10:37
subject: <b>To LitN</b>
body:
Sorry, you posted after I started typing up my response.  But, yes, your suggestion is pretty much what I had in mind.  It seems deadly dangerous to channel the OP or TP around Shayol Ghul.  The DO has the ability to touch the Pattern most directly there, and the OP which drives the Pattern theirin.  If Rand used the Eye at Shayol Ghul, then the OP would be safe from any meddling.<br /><br />Also, since the Eye moves according to the &quot;need&quot; of the one seeking it, it's certainly plausible that the Green Man's garden could show up at Shayol Ghul in Rand's most desperate hour.  Oops.  He already used it.


created: 2004-11-29 18:32:16
subject: <b>to sidious</b>
body:
Sorry about the double posts, but I keep missing you guys by five minutes or so.  Anyways...<br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>RJ said that he made the first book like it was because he was planning for a trilogy - if he was lucky. I can't believe that he would put this fact into the first book on the off chance that there would be an 11th book to reveal a dire consequence.</b></font><br /><br />Just because RJ waited a while doesn't mean he didn't plan it out.  It seems almost inconcievable to us that he had the last scene of the books planned out in his head all those years ago, and yet still only planned for it to be a trilogy.  Think of all the leadup he's had to do to get just two books away from Tarmon Gai'don.  I don't think it's implausible that RJ intended to have Rand's use of the Eye, which, in hindsight, seems a bit disjointed from the rest of the book (it only takes about 200 pages to introduce and conclude this new plot thread).<br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>It brings me to my second point which disagrees with your theory. The Aes Sedai in the AOL made the Eye because of a foretelling which they had about the Dragon Reborn. Therefore it had to come true. There is no way in which Rand could have used it incorrectly - the foretellings are always fulfilled. </b></font><br /><br />You have to remember, Foretellings are very confusing things.  The Aes Sedai could have misinterpreted the Foretelling to mean that Rand had to use the Eye correctly to win the Last Battle.  However, Rand's misuse of the Eye can result in &quot;gasp, how horrible&quot; and he can still win the Last Battle.  It doesn't matter how the Aes Sedai interpreted the Foretelling.  What matters is what is happening in this Age, and Rand seems to have tossed away something that would come in handy later.  It can be a &quot;gasp, how horrible&quot; and not be his ultimate downfall.<br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>My final point is the ultimate proof against the theory. The Eye was filled with objects of great importance like Lews Therin's banner , the seal and the Horn of Valere. If they didn't get their hands on these objects at this point of the story , things might have been difficult for them , especially at Falme.</b></font><br /><br />The Pattern looks out for the Dragon Reborn.  Since he misused the Eye, the Pattern provided him the Banner and the Horn.  Think of it from a 'Portal Stone' perspective:  If Rand had not gone to the Eye at that point, then things would have been completely different.  The entire confrontation at Falme might not have even happened.  What would have been different for the Light or Shadow if Rand had not used the Eye, not realized he could channel at that point, not killed Aginor, not wounded Ishy?


created: 2004-11-29 19:55:50
subject: <b>Even if it was a mistake, it isn't a dreadful one.</b>
body:
For one thing, Rand has all three intact seals in his possession or control, and they are all weakened.  Moiraine tells him they could be easily smashed by &quot;men with hammers&quot; and when Taim brings the last one, I believe it is suggested that it is weak enough (don't have LoC handy)to be smashed physically as well.  I doubt the Eye was created to do a job that 3 men with hammers could do a year and a half later!  Also, regarding Aginor's use, it is kind of a wild speculation - he likely didn't have the raw power available to heal himself, or maybe his &quot;freebasing&quot; saidin made him healthy as a side effect.  Just channeling extends your lifespan by nearly a factor of ten with no conscious effort.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


created: 2004-11-30 11:31:19
subject: <b>Disagree</b>
body:
It certainly wasn't a mistake, but it happened exactly as it should happen (even if the AS who made the Eye might thought something else). <br />As others said, otherwise Rand wouldn't have the Horn of Valere and the Dragon Banner.<br /><br />We also never see Ishy/Moridin, SH, the DO or any Forsaken triumph because Rand used the Eye, and thus has already all but lost.<br /><br />Note that if Rand had come later, the Green Man's place would probably have been consumed by the Blight according to the Green Man's words.<br /><br />Apparently the first seal already broke before the Eye was used, so a Forsaken could have blinded the Eye as well. <br /><br />As you, I also don't know what terrible cost the use of the Eye could have. <br />At least in my opinion, RJ's words that &quot;something that has previously happened in the series&quot; will lead to a terrible cost in KoD, don't sound as if it happened at the very beginning of the series, but maybe two or three books ago.<br /><br />BTW, where did RJ say that the use Rand put the Eye to was not the one the makers intended it (and what did he say)?


created: 2004-11-30 13:50:39
subject: <b>I agree with some parts, disagree with others</b>
body:
First I don't think this is the &quot;horrible consequences&quot; - what troubles the opening of the Eye could cause has already happened, IMHO. As early as TGH.<br /><br />Like you I think Rand made a big mistake opening it so soon, however. He gave a seizable victory to Ishamael and the DO.<br /><br />The way I see it, I suspect the saidin at the Eye was not meant to be channeled at all (there was not such a huge amount of it, all things considered) - it was a screen protecting the Seal hidden there from the Dark One and the Taint (True Power, probably) - similar to the Patch on the Bore, and maybe that's the reason saidin and not saidar had to be used. Even if the taint weakened this seal (and it did), the screen of saidin would act as a failsafe - a secondary focal point to the real sealing at SG. Until LTT-reborn opened the Eye, the last seal would hold.<br /><br />I believe the Eye was also built partly out of &quot;reality&quot;, not a real physical place, a bit like the Bore - for one thing, it answers to Need, and only once - just the way Need works in TAR (Moiraine went twice, but it's Rand whose Need it answered the second time). The Green Man might have been long lived, but the 3,000 years he might also have spent partly out of time.<br /><br />However, I speculate a further purpose for the Eye which might explain Aginor's greed and Ishamael's long planning to get Rand there the minute he appeared : this focus point for a Seal hidden at the EotW was the one under which the 13 Forsaken had been trapped. Its weakening over 3,000 years was enough to free Aginor and Balthamel, but not the others. Ishamael also needed Rand to open the Eye to finally re-enter the Pattern completely. Rand handed him his 11 associates on a silver plate.<br /><br />I also speculate that without this seal destroyed the DO was not able to touch reality enough to grant his protection from the taint to Aginor and Balthamel - that's why Aginor wanted the pure saidin there and to get his hands on the Seal.<br /><br />I believe going to the Eye was one the very last things Rand was supposed to do before TG started : destroy the last Seal, free the Chosen because he had no other choice (it was foretold they would be freed) and then grab the Horn of Valere and LTT's banner (that apparently was to be shown to the Dead Heroes - Falme seems to imply) - and hop we all go to meet the DO. <br /><br />Ishamael managed to trick him into releasing his fellow Chosen <i>way</i> earlier than it was supposed to be, after Rand had united the world and was ready to face the DO.<br /><br />I think Rand was supposed to &quot;channel out&quot; saidin there through Callandor - and it might even be why this flawed san'angreal was left for him. I think the fact Aginor also used the Eye saved Rand from burning himself out.<br /><br />I think it was no coincidence at all that the EotW was accessible <i>on the way</i> to Shayol Ghul.<br /><br /><br /> <br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="images/personalsmilies/30778.gif" />Wheel of Time Reference Library : Articles, maps, charts and misc.<img src="images/personalsmilies/30778.gif" /><br /><br /></font><p><a href="http://13depository.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">The Thirteenth Depository - a Wheel of Time Blog</a></p><p></p>


created: 2004-11-30 13:52:47
subject: <b>More responses</b>
body:
Cannoli:<br /><font size="-1"><b>For one thing, Rand has all three intact seals in his possession or control, and they are all weakened. Moiraine tells him they could be easily smashed by &quot;men with hammers&quot; and when Taim brings the last one, I believe it is suggested that it is weak enough (don't have LoC handy)to be smashed physically as well. I doubt the Eye was created to do a job that 3 men with hammers could do a year and a half later!</b></font><br /><br />Yes, you are probably right, the breaking of the seals is probably not the reason the Eye should be used.  Perhaps it's the &quot;build&quot; part of the statement, which will probably have to be done by Rand alone?<br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Also, regarding Aginor's use, it is kind of a wild speculation - he likely didn't have the raw power available to heal himself, or maybe his &quot;freebasing&quot; saidin made him healthy as a side effect. Just channeling extends your lifespan by nearly a factor of ten with no conscious effort. </b></font><br /><br />I don't think it's a wild speculation at all.  The Eye is a Well.  It does not magnify your use of the Power, like a sa'angreal.  You use what you want, just like the Wells used in Far Madding (where Cads uses only a trickle but Nyn retains the Source and drains her Well).  If the black cords bind the male Forsaken to the DO, I think it only makes sense that it in some way restricts why the Forsaken can use.  Why would the DO want Aginor to renew his body without the DO's help?  That is one thing that ensures Aginor's loyalty, especially since he seems consumed by the thought of &quot;new flesh.&quot;<br /><br />Etzel:<br /><font size="-1"><b>It certainly wasn't a mistake, but it happened exactly as it should happen (even if the AS who made the Eye might thought something else). </b></font><br /><br />I'm sorry, but I can't see how it happened exactly as it was meant to happen.  The AS put the Eye there for a purpose, and Ishy was apparently aware of the purpose.  He planned to &quot;blind&quot; the Eye.  But we all agree that the Forsaken couldn't enter into the Garden without Mat there.  So how was Ishy planning to &quot;blind&quot; the Eye?  The whole Shadow plot in TEOTW is to lure Rand to the Eye.  Ag/Balth were just a catalyst that made Rand tap the Eye and drain it.  So if it's something Ishy wanted, then it can't be good for the Light.<br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>As others said, otherwise Rand wouldn't have the Horn of Valere and the Dragon Banner.</b></font><br /><br />Yes, that's true.  I explained this earlier, though.  The Pattern provides for the Dragon Reborn.  By giving up his advantage of the Eye, the Pattern provided him with the Horn and the Banner.  If Rand had used the Eye differently, or not at all, another, completely different course of events might have resulted, one that might not have had a &quot;Falme&quot; at all.<br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>We also never see Ishy/Moridin, SH, the DO or any Forsaken triumph because Rand used the Eye, and thus has already all but lost.</b></font><br /><br />It's more a matter of the Shadow depriving the Light/DR of an advantage.  If the dire need doesn't come up until KOD, then what need has the Shadow to flaunt the fact in the faces of the good guys?<br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Note that if Rand had come later, the Green Man's place would probably have been consumed by the Blight according to the Green Man's words.</b></font><br /><br />Eventually.  But it would have taken a long while.  The Green Man says he has been fighting with the Blight for mellinnia, just that the fight has been a bit tougher lately.  It might have taken several more &quot;turnings,&quot; as the Green Man calls the passage of years, for the Garden to be completely consumed.<br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Apparently the first seal already broke before the Eye was used, so a Forsaken could have blinded the Eye as well. </b></font><br /><br />No.  The Forsaken only got into the Garden because of Mat and the presence of the Dagger.  If Ishy wanted the Eye blinded (as seems certain), then he would have done it himself, years and years ago.  No, he didn't because he couldn't.<br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>As you, I also don't know what terrible cost the use of the Eye could have.  At least in my opinion, RJ's words that &quot;something that has previously happened in the series&quot; will lead to a terrible cost in KoD, don't sound as if it happened at the very beginning of the series, but maybe two or three books ago.</b></font><br /><br />Well, of course the Eye is just one option for &quot;gasp, how horrible.&quot;  However, something that &quot;previously happened in the series&quot; could be anything, not just three or four books ago.  As I said earlier, just because something's bad for the Shadow doesn't mean the DO's shoving it in the good guys' faces.  Quite the contrary.<br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>BTW, where did RJ say that the use Rand put the Eye to was not the one the makers intended it (and what did he say)? </b></font><br /> <br />Blah.  On this, I got nothing.  When I submitted the theory two months ago, I seem to recall having heard it...somewhere... but, just the same, it shouldn't have been in the theory.  Let me backtrack.<br /><br />If the Eye was not used improperly, then all it was meant for was a storage facility for the items inside.  If that was the case, then the AS would have woven a DR-only ward around them, like Callandor.  Note that the same AS have the charge of Callandor and the Banner in Rand's flashback in TSR.  Therefore, the Eye had to be there for another purpose.


created: 2004-11-30 14:44:39
subject: <b>Eye intended for the sealing of DO mebe?</b>
body:
it culd have been intended to seal the DO's prision because if u remember saidin was impure then and mebe the only way to seal it wuld b with pure saidin so inorder to do that u wuld have to use the pure saidin in the well and channel to seal it, which also could be why the EOTW is in the blight too so you would be close to the prison.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Watch out! Its the kid who cant speel <br />|<br />And remember kids always drink till you cant think!</font><p></p>


created: 2004-11-30 16:46:03
subject: <b>Removing the taint</b>
body:
Although there are several quotes like 'maknids greatest need' and 'the power to heal the DO's prison, or break it open completely', I still think that the whole purplose of the EotW was to cleanse saidin.<br /><br />Basically, Rand has ballsed up the plans of the ancient Aes Sedai, he used the EotW at the wrong time, and even if he hadn't, he just randomly cleanses saidin when it suits him.<br /><br />I think that there was supposed to be a set time and place, similar to the drawing of Callandor, when saidin was to be cleansed. I think this because like someone said earlier, after the  taint is removed, the EotW is effectively pointless, as all saidin is pure anyway. So this suggests it was built to be used to achieve this.<br /><br />Also the quote about sealing/breaking the DO's prison can be seen as a means-to-an-end in that by cleansing saidin you are deciding whether you will be able to seal/break the prison simply as an effect from the now-healed male channelers.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> Vaguely Remembered <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-12-01 18:37:31
subject: <b>Something that occurred to me,</b>
body:
is that the danger for the OP to be Tainted again while attempting to re-Seal the Bore is still there.  RJ has also said that if the women had aided LTT that day, then saidar would've been Tainted too.  However, if the Seal was made with the OP from a source other than the main OP Source then the DO's backlash might only extend to the source being used.  Meaning, that the Eye and its' OP would've been Tainted, but the True Source.


created: 2004-12-02 00:21:55
subject: <b>To getto_man</b>
body:
&quot;every time a seal is found it happens when good and evil meet<br />when good wins the seal remains intact but when the bad guys win it breaks<br /><br />&quot;so doesnt this mean that the shadow won at the eye<br />just a thoght&quot;<br /><br />It would be more accurate to say that a seal was found right after a key turning point in the Light's cause (i.e. Rand's battle with the Shadow).  The seal remained intact whenever Rand maintained control over himself and <i>saidin</i> (i.e. the Stone, Rhuidean, and Caemlyn--though he was pretty close to breaking that one until Bashere stepped in...).  When he lost control and channeled subconsciously (i.e. at the Eye and Falme), the seals were destroyed.<br /><br />I believe there was a theory about <i>why</i> this was the case.  For example, recall the Lews Therin is constantly trying to break the seals; when Rand isn't fully conscious of his channeling, it is fairly standard to assume that LTT is guiding Rand's hand, in a way.  Thus when LTT took over, the seals went out the window.  When it was Rand, they're fine.<br /><br />There are many other explanations, but I think it's important to point out it was more closely correlated with Rand's internal struggle for control than it was with the Shadow's victory or defeat.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Who we were is lost to all men, and life is bitter.&quot;<br />&quot;Expect nothing, and you will not be surprised.&quot;  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-12-02 12:08:21
subject: <b>Doesn't Matter</b>
body:
I do not have an opinion either way about if the &#8220;eye&#8221; was used like the AOL Aes Sedai created it for.  That is irrelevant.   I think the &#8220;eye&#8221; did serve the purpose of placing Rands feet on the path that he had to travel.  It was the first step in the path that would enable Rand to meet what was prophesized, tying a string to him and pulling him toward what needs to take place if you will.  It also accomplished what other people have said, it gave Rand a chance to channel un-tainted Saidin and destroy a Forsaken.  It gave Rand the Horn &amp; Banner which was required at the battle of flame.  It tied that core group of characters together for all the future events.  But most of all it caught the attention of all of us so we would continue to read and purchase the books in the series. <br />Now if it was not used like the AS of AOL had intended, it doesn&#8217;t matter now because Rand has removed the taint.  So whatever they had intended the well of pure saiden for still can be accomplished thanks to the events that had taken place. Plus the Dragon now has more knowledge, purpose &amp; additional resources to use to accomplish &quot;Must clear rubble before you build.&quot;<br />


created: 2004-12-07 12:47:24
subject: <b>perhaps..</b>
body:
we know that chanelling into the seals makes them stronger (the substance they are made of, im not even going to try to spell it). So perhaps the well of saidin was there to keep at least that one seal strong through the ages?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">In space no one can hear you scream.</font><p></p>


created: 2006-02-25 00:31:16
subject: <b>Eh...</b>
body:
...it's a nice theory, but there are two major snags...both of which have been mentioned.  The items found in the Eye, for one...especially the Seal.  We don't know if the Seal was broken before the Eye was used...if it wasn't TG may never have been able to occur, the Seals need to break.  Additionally, the Eye is completely negated by the cleansing of Saidin...what good is a limited pool of the Power when you have a thousand Asha'man running around channeling pure unleaded ultra-grade Saidin?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>Hi!  I'm Mat!  I'm just like Mat from the WoT...except I don't have that hat, medallion, sword-spear, and I can't speak the old tongue...although I did dance with one of the Forsaken once...</i><br /><br />-Mat <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2006-07-22 02:26:06
subject: <b>Shadar Haran</b>
body:
I keep seeing references to this is various posts, and yet in re-reading the series I can find no evidence.<br /><br />Many people seem to think that SH can cut off channelers from the Source.  The only channelers I have seen him cut off from the source are Forsaken/Darkfriends.  Which makes sense, since he is the Hand of the Shadow.  The DO can keep FS from channeling, so it makes sense that his Hand can do the same, but in re-reading the series, I have not yet seen him chut off a non FS/DF.  When it comes to FS and DF's.. the DO giveth, and the DO taketh away.<br /><br />Now, if someone can cite a source where SH does actually prevent a non-FS/DF from channeling, please point it out to me, because I must have missed it somewhere.


created: 2007-01-04 05:10:28
subject: <b>Need was the Key?..Remember</b>
body:
I don't think they would have found the Green Man or the Eye if need was not truly the key.  They all needed to be there, just as I believe the pattern directs Rand's steps no matter how much he tries to leap about himself.  If that was a problem, I doubt the pattern would have allowed him. Not to mention that had he not used The Eye, the banner, the seal and the HOV would not have been found.  Whether the Eye was intended for the specific use of how Rand used it, the Aes Sedai who created it, created it out of some possible need in the future and while they had their ideas of why does not necessarily mean that it need to be carried out in that way.


created: 2008-04-27 17:42:02
subject: <b>excellent theory</b>
body:
my thinking exactaly one thing though, I think the other use of the eye was to hold off the dragon reborn from going mad, if he used that instead of drawing from normal sadin he might not go mad when the time comes for him to seal up the DO


created: 2004-12-02 09:29:40
subject: <b>Well, no.</b>
body:
The tainting wasn't a mistake by LTT but a purposeful counterstrike by the DO (as also the Story &quot;Strike at Shayol Ghul&quot; tells). <br /><br />Only in the moment of the sealing the DO had access to saidin, probably through the special weaves of the seals, and could taint it with his Power. <br />Therefore the DO couldn't taint the OP before.<br /><br />It's also shown when Ishy tells LTT in EotW, prologue:<br />&quot;Remember, you fool! Remember your futile attack on Great Lord of the Dark! Remember his counterstroke!&quot;<br />If it had been a mistake by LTT, Ishy would certainly rather mock him with this.<br /><br />Saidar wasn't tainted because no female channlers participated at the sealing.<br /><br />Finally, maybe one can say that the tainting and the Breaking was indirectly LTT's fault since it was his plan.<br /><br />On the other hand, it's likely that otherwise, without the sealing, the DO would have broken free completely. <br />Thus it was better that saidin was tainted than that the DO &amp; the Forsaken were still free (especially since the Shadow almost won the War of the Power at this point). <br /><br />Of course later LTT became the Kinslayer due to his deeds and was hated by everyone (though some stories about him are simply twisted and wrong). <br />But all in all, I believe LTT did the right thing and saved the world, even if mankind suffered the Breaking later.<br />


created: 2004-12-02 11:44:12
subject: <b>question?</b>
body:
if the taint is held on by the seals does that mean rand has had to break them to cleanse the male power? i don't get that impression from the strory line. but the theorys logic this would be the only way to cleanse it.


created: 2004-12-02 13:59:55
subject: <b>Etzel's right</b>
body:
Think of the myths and legends about LTT during the current age.  This is most prevalent during TEOTW, when we see the villager's references to the Dragon.  They all hate and fear him.  This is because he brought the Breaking, not because of the Taint.  The average Joe al'Schmuck isn't aware of all the facts around the Strike and the ensuing Tainting.  Even the White Tower doesn't have the whole story (Moiraine telling it to Egwene in TEOTW seems to make LTT as the antagonist).<br /><br />Whether the Taint is something that the DO uses as a tactic against AS in every Age is up in the air, however.  It really seems to be some sort of accident.  RJ says in &quot;Strike&quot; that the Taint wasn't noticed, at first, so it seems like it was just a seed of the TP that was introduced onto saidin, and it slowly grew to become the viscious scum that Rand feels.


created: 2004-12-02 14:35:18
subject: <b>Possible</b>
body:
My biggest problem with this theory is that by your reasoning, Rand had to simply break the rest of the seals to cleanse Saidin.  Of course, it could be a clue to Herid Fel's note to Rand,  &quot;...clear the rubble...&quot;  We've assumed that Rand's question to Fel was about resealing the bore.  What if it was about cleansing the taint instead?  As for it being LTT's fault that the DO could taint Saidin, that's for the most part true and proven.  Because the seals were made without Saidar, they were not as powerful as they should have been to block the DO's counterstrike.  Because the women Aes Sedai did not take place in the making or using of the seals, they were flawed, and the fact that they were made of Saidin gave the DO a route directly to the Source.  So, since LTT went ahead with his plan with the weaker seals, he was responsible for both the Tainting and the Breaking.  My 2&#162;.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Questions, Comments, Thoughts?<br /><br />Geoff<br /><br />Artificial Intelligence <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/r2d2.gif" border="0" /> <br />is no match for<br />Natural Stupidity <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-12-02 23:29:25
subject: <b>Agree, sort of</b>
body:
I agree with your reasoning behind why Sadin got tainted, though I do not believe that the taint is connected to the seals, and I do not believe that the entire blame for the taint can be laid at LTT's feet, as he did not know what the consequances would be to sealing the DO as he did.


created: 2004-12-03 00:21:53
subject: <b>More Than Probable!</b>
body:
Great theory!  In response to the others above: nothing in this theory requires Rand to break the seals before cleansing the taint.  First, let me add a bit of support to the theory, and then I'll explain.<br /><br />The way Rand cleansed the taint implies that it was finite (albeit enough to fill a giant sphere), whereas philosophy in the WOT world implies the OP is infinite.  More precisely, the OP is sort like a fluid flowing in a closed loop.  Channeling it redirects the flow but does not consume it, so it is basically infinite.<br /><br />So why would the taint be finite but the OP inifite?  The answer is that the DO's counter-attack with the True Power got trapped in saidin when the DO was sealed away, and this bit of True Power became the taint.  Perhaps LTT actually created the taint on purpose: sensing that the DO was striking back and knowing he couldn't stop it, he attempted to deflect the blow behind the seal.  LTT failed though, and instead some of the True Power got trapped outside the seal.  Normally saidin and the True Power would never mix but, in this unique circumstance, the True Power had no choice but to be carried along with saidin like oil on water.<br /><br />Now back to why the seal didn't need to be broken to cleanse the taint.  When LTT made the seal on the DO's prison, he didn't make it with ropes: he made the seal with tubes of saidin's flow.  The seven disks were just focus points for the tubes, holding them in place.  The True Power counter-stroke (aka the taint) became trapped in those tubes.  As saidin flowed through the tubes, it carried and evenutally all of saidin was contaiminated with it.  To cleanse the taint Rand funneled saidin's flow using saidar, squeezing the taint off and dumping it above Shadar Logoth.  The saidin flowing through the DO's seal eventually flowed through Rand's funnel--all of saidin flowed through that funnel.  Saidin leaving the funnel was pure, and eventually flowed back through the seal.  Clearly the seal (which is really just tubes of flow) didn't need to be broken for Rand to succeed.  All Rand needed to do was make sure that he skimmed off all of the taint.


created: 2004-12-03 02:30:31
subject: <b>I can see it either way...</b>
body:
Etzl lays out some rather convincing arguments against it... that lasy guy had some good arguments for it... your theory over all was good... but I can't say yea or nay until I've read more... Sorry.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Warder to Be'lal's Girl<br />Wotmania Lottery<br /><br /><br /><br />&quot;Meh. A good relationship is like fireworks: loud, explosive, and liable to maim you if you hold on too long.&quot; ~ Sven, Questionable Content<br /><br />Bonded by Sidious. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-12-03 07:17:02
subject: <b>Interesting</b>
body:
Very interesting theory. There is one more argument, which supports this theory very well, that you don't mention. RJ himself said, that if women had participated, saidar would have been tainted as well.<br /><br />One question: Do you mean that the taint actually is TP that is (sorry, was<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />) attached to saidin, but not mixed with it? It woud mean that whenever a male channeler channeled, he would not only channel saidin, but TP as well<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/oh.gif" border="0" />. This could have tremendous implicatins!!!<br /><br />PS: Sorry for my english<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/blush.gif" border="0" />, it's not my native language.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Apart from the sanitation, medicine, education, wine, public order, irrigation, roads, the fresh water system and public health, what have the Romans ever done for us?&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2004-12-03 13:16:54
subject: <b>Evets is Right</b>
body:
I have to agree with Red Ear Evets - it makes sense that the Dark One would have been more interested in breaking the weavings than in tainting saidin at the moment that he was about to be tied up.  The tainting of saidin could only have been a method of revenge.  Though the taint caused some traumatic world events, the Dark One had plenty of other opportunities to get revenge while he was trapped through his proxies.<br />


created: 2004-12-03 13:33:15
subject: <b>Arrogance?</b>
body:
I like and agree with the main thrust of the post, but I don't agree with or see the connection to LLT's alleged arrogance.  IMO his arrogance is typically the jelousy of other forsaken.


created: 2004-12-03 13:56:33
subject: <b>2pentiumhead</b>
body:
I don't understand your argument. You are saying it's impossible to have finite taint in infinite OP. But later you are saying that &quot;a little bit&quot; of TP was trapped in OP and became a taint. How is that? A little bit of something means finite amount of something and you are arguing against that in the beginning.


created: 2004-12-03 17:52:43
subject: <b>I dunno...</b>
body:
It really seems like this theory is merely recap.  In addition, it doesn't really make sense to say that LTT was responsible for the Taint... it was the DO's counterstrike that caused the Taint.  LTT was arrogant, but he really had no other choice thanks to the female Aes Sedai boycott and the loss of the Choedan Kal to provinces under the Shadow's control.  It's likely the DO would have broken free completely if LTT had waited too much longer.<br /><br />As to the fact that only saidin was Tainted, it's because the DO can exert some sort of power over the OP when at Shayol Ghul.  This is why the Forsaken are afraid to channel at Shayol Ghul.  Do you think the DO would be willing to sacrifice a single female Forsaken for a chance to Taint saidar?  Of course he would.<br /><br />From the books, we know that the DO's retaliation came at the instant of the Sealing.  Since the plan was probably held very close to the chest, it's unlikely the DO knew what the 100 Companions were planning until they started laying the weaves.  How they actually did it is a mystery, but it's possible that each of the seals were laid at the same time, with each one being woven into place by 1/7 of the 113 Companions.  If it was quick enough, then that would only give the DO an instant to strike back, which would explain the amount of Taint originally on saidin.<br /><br />I don't think the reason that the 100 Companions went insane instantly is the OP/TP battle.  From the Forsaken, we know that to channel the TP at Shayol Ghul means instant death.  Whether this is a property of the thin Pattern, or just that the DO will kill you is up in the air -- as is the question of if Ishy was holding the TP at the moment of Sealing and that is what caused him to be partially bound.  I think the fact that the 100 Companions were laced with the TP from the DO is why they went instantly insane.<br /><br />As for the finite/infinte thing, from &quot;Strike&quot; we learn that the Taint was not immediately detected by the male Aes Sedai.  So it seems like the Taint was a tiny seed of TP that slowly grew to cover saidin.  However, saidin is finite in the same sense that the Taint is finite.  The metaphor Moiraine uses to describe the OP is that the OP is the water, an Aes Sedai the waterwheel.  The Aes Sedai never consumes any OP when they channel, because when the flows are done, they dissipate.<br /><br />It's all relative, and doesn't really make sense however you talk about it.  But since the Taint was finite, that means saidin is finite, as well... but it doesn't matter because an Aes Sedai doesn't use up OP as they channel.<br /><br />But still, it wasn't LTT's fault... he couldn't have predicted the DO's retalitory stroke.


created: 2004-12-04 01:06:32
subject: <b>I like it, but I need to address some things....</b>
body:
I almost didn't make it through this theory because of the murderous spellings of names you used...I like the theory, or at least most of it, but please observe the following for future reference:<br /><br />A. They were called the Hundred Companions, so OHC is a bit odd to use for an abbreviation.<br />B. The man who ruled much of the world 1000 years before the births of Rand <i>et al.</i> was Artur Hawkwing.  His name was not Hawking; the famous Hawking in the world is a physicist with ALS.<br />C. Ishmael was the son of Hagar, Abraham's maidservant, in <i>Genesis</i>.  Ishmael was also the main character in <i>Moby Dick</i>.  The most powerful Forsaken was named Ishamael (note the extra 'a').<br />D. Jain Farstrider's alter ego is named Noal, not Noel.<br /><br />Sorry to nitpick, but as someone who read the first three or four books without realizing I was spelling Tardaad wrong until somone on wotmania pointed it out four years or so ago (I was spelling it Taraad), I feel I should make my contribution to the functionality of tWoT.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Who we were is lost to all men, and life is bitter.&quot;<br />&quot;Expect nothing, and you will not be surprised.&quot;  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-12-06 00:25:05
subject: <b>TO: Skeeve The Great</b>
body:
I am arguing that there is only a finite amount of the OP, but that it never gets used up.  It's just recycled, like the coolant used in your refridgerator.  Rand however managed to &quot;use-up&quot; the taint.  Therefore the taint and the OP must be two different things.  The DO didn't change saidin when he tainted it, he poluted it by added something.  The True Power seems the most plausible polutant, as argued by the theory.<br /><br />In response to vidarfe:<br />Male channelers direct saidin's flow and in so doing brush against the taint, which is a tiny bit of the True Power.  They can't direct those True Power flows though without the DO's permission, and so they aren't actually channeling the True Power.


created: 2004-12-07 07:56:19
subject: <b>I'm with Etzel</b>
body:
It was the DO's counterstrike, which is what Jordan described it as, so it was intentional. <br /><br />That the taint was only placed on saidin has to be explained by the circumstances surrounding the event. Two noteworthy things: The seals were being used as focal points to tie the weaves to, and only saidin was actively being used. IMHO, both the seals and the Hundred Companions, (as well as LTT), served as a conduit that the DO could reach through to cause the taint. It took both to be able to do it.<br /><br />The seals, while not physically touching the Bore, <i>are</i> touching it metaphysically, allowing the contact the DO needed to work through. The male channelers using saidin to secure the weaves to the seals, provided an open pathway for the taint to travel through. Since saidar wasn't being used, that pathway was not open for the taint to reach. <br /><br />BTW, for whoever it was that suggested the seals were defective because saidar wasn't used, what are you basing this on? In CoT we saw the rebel Aes Sedai making cuendillar without men to help by adding saidin. As far as we can tell right now, making Heartstone doesn't require both halves of the Power. Most likely the seals metaphysical contact with the Bore, (and thus the DO and his True Power), is the cause of their deterioration.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2004-12-09 21:05:59
subject: <b>you can mix oil and water !</b>
body:
You know i've never liked the metaphor about oil sitting on top of the water and that to get to the water you have to go thru the oil. In actual fact you can MIX oil and water. Think about this : if you pour oil into water it will just sit on the top and do nothing, BUT, if you pour water at a fast pace into oil it will mix. We do it at work all the time. Also if you stir the wateroil fast enuff it will also mix, because you are breaking down the atoms small enuff that they will bond together and stay mixed !<br /><br />Where am i going with all this you ask ?? I've got NFI where, but it has to do with a partial theory thats in the back of my head about Rand cleansing the taint, but its unfinished and i cant seem to wrap my head around it !<br /><br />cheers,<br />Demon <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cheers,<br />Demon</font><p></p>


created: 2005-04-09 06:12:36
subject: <b>Whacka whacka</b>
body:
Fy faen vidarfe du suger i engelsk ass...<br /><br />I have to say I agree partially with this theory. I do not think the taint was caused by an amount of TP in the seals. I cannot really say I believe the taint was caused directly by LTT; It was the dark ones counterstroke. That means the dark one did it himself. I agree Shai'tan couldn't have tainted the OP without LTT and his men, but it wasn't LTT's fault. It was just the circumstances. I agree with Light In The Night on most points. However I think the sealing would have worked better with Saidar involved. It wasn't the Cuendillar that sealed up the DO. The heartstone was just the base for the weavings that are the actual seals. Wasn't this mentioned in &quot;The Strike at Shayol Ghool&quot;? (I mean the part about the women). <br /><br />Nice theory, though. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perplexed.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smackhead.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /> LLT <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-04-23 01:04:33
subject: <b>Re: The Taint</b>
body:
i like ur theory and i agree and the only thing i would change is that i believe the DO 'taint as a result of the knotting weaves on the patch&quot; thing should have also said that the taint is also wut caused it to BE only a patch i believe that it would have permanantly repaired it for the coming ages but now that Rand has removed the taint he will heal the bore fully until it is once again opened in the return to the age of legends as the wheel spins.<br /><br /><br />i hope u understood that cus its kinda hard to explain wut i mean


created: 2005-04-29 19:30:35
subject: <b>TP in the OP</b>
body:
i don't believe that the TP is the oil on the water (OP).  if this were true, would that not mean that sensing and feeling this Taint would be just as pleasurable as the Forsaken say it is?  they say that to use the TP too much you will eventually not be able to resist drawing more, however the Taint makes one despise using the OP sorta in the way that it makes you feel almost sick and even after releasing the OP, you still feel that rottenness and filth that the Taint exudes.  these metaphors do not seem to be descriptions of something like the TP and plus, this would also mean men were using the TP at the same time they used the OP, so technically they would get the saa, which is never evident...<br /><br />it could be however that the Taint, the TP, and the DO are one in the same.  the Taint is the TP and its like being touched by the DO (he is the TP), however in small amounts.  when the DO lashed out in retaliation, it was his full power touching the HC that caused them to go mad instantly.  with the Taint, it takes a while longer to go mad because he is not touching you directly, but it is a touch from the DO all the same


created: 2005-09-05 20:55:16
subject: <b>When in doubt,</b>
body:
agree with Etzel. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sister to Nossy<br />Shot swapper with a_fan <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br />Bonded to Phil Reborn and Sidious<br />&quot;Mommies are like wizards&quot; ~ CVH <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br />The fact that I don't agree with you in no way means I didn't understand you.</font><p></p>


created: 2009-01-25 17:37:59
subject: <b>only saidin was tainted</b>
body:
I think it is significant that at the time the bore was sealed, only Saidin was being used. This is what allowed the Dark One to taint only Saidin and not Saidar.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Is this in the Old Tongue?<br />&quot;Bah weep graaagnah wheep ni ni bong!&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2009-05-30 10:12:40
subject: <b>shayol ghul</b>
body:
i have allways thought that the dark one could taint only saidin because only male channelers were present at the strike. throughout  all the books it has been stated that some things can only be done at shayol ghul and as only male channelers were present the dark one could only taint saidin but if the dark one could do this he would have ordered the capture of female channelers and used there connection to saidar to taint the female half of the source.but after reading your theory i have come to the conclusion that the dark ones counter stroke was only an etempt at defence and the taint was an unintentional side effect.


created: 2004-12-04 11:39:02
subject: <b>Can't agree</b>
body:
The &quot;Fox&quot; is clearly Mat in my opinion. <br /><br />Even if the Seanchan believe that Thom could be responsible, the person who prophesied this event means Mat. <br />With the kidnapping of Tuon, Mat provoked the Seanchan to follow him.<br /><br />If you look at the whole prophecy it's apparent that it describes Mat's attributes and his deeds.<br />


created: 2004-12-04 12:35:21
subject: <b>Possibly</b>
body:
The trick of your interpretation lies in your assumption that Fortune is Mat (or maybe whether Fortune is personified in Mat).  Etzel assumes that Fortune is not personified as Mat.  If that is the case, then of course your interpretation does not work.  Whatever the correct interpretation is, this is an excellent fresh look at a theory I for one considered settled.


created: 2004-12-04 12:35:59
subject: <b>As with many a prophecy....</b>
body:
Why could it not be about both of them?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>you know you can't leave Wotmania. It's kinda like herpes, you can just never really get rid of it.</i><br />Kit <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /></font><p><a href="http://www.cbgxtra.com/" target="_blank">Comics Buyer's Guide XTRA</a></p><p></p>


created: 2004-12-04 14:54:36
subject:
<b><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /> It's <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/thom.gif" border="0" /></b>

body:
I fully agree that <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/thom.gif" border="0" /> is the fox. I think I even wrote a theory about it myself, though not quite so well versed.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> <br />It's way too easy to count the entire piece to be about <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" />. Just look at the context; Noal is telling <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /> there are others than the Dragon mentioned in the prophesies. Would this mean only <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" />?<br /><br />Also, being up to my neck in grammar-studies at the moment, I cant't help to point out, that &quot;with&quot; defines Fortune and the Fox as different entities: <br /><br /><i>Fortune rides like the sun on high<br /><b>with</b> the fox that makes the ravens fly.</i><br /><br />This, however, still leaves room for interpretation. If you claim that <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /> is the Fox, &quot;Fortune&quot; might be a power/god (cf. Bayle Domon's &quot;<i>Fortune</i> prick me&quot; expression) that accompanies him.<br /><br />Or you <i>&gt;could</i> claim Fox is <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" />'s foxhead, Fortune is his luck, etc. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perplexed.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />However, if one is to interpret the semantics so, that the third and fourth lines refer to Fortune, fortune has to be a male entity, a <i>he</i>. And since everyone seems to agree that these lines refer to <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /> :<br /><br /><i>Luck his soul, lightning his eye,<br />He snatches the moons from out of the sky.</i><br /><br />Furthermore, I think there's some meaning behind: &quot;Like the sun on high&quot; Does it mean among nobility/high ladies/lords? Literal riding? Has the sun some connection to the real sun, the sun thone or saidin/saidar (cf. To Loose the Sun, WH ch 23) ?<br /><br />We don't even know if the quote actually is in the Karaethon cycle, or if it was something else (another of Ishy's games/ Farstrider fighting through his Noal-identity), now do we?<br /><br />Or, in conclusion: It's definitely not as simple as it looks. Whether theory is right, or another, doesn't matter. What matters is not taking it at face value. <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> over<br /><br />Not my quote, but:<br />&quot;Just because you aren't paranoid...&quot;<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">The only way to convince me is by providing some evidence!</font><p></p>


created: 2004-12-04 17:03:30
subject: <b>Definitley Matt without a doubt.</b>
body:
&quot;Fortune rides like the sun on high<br />with the fox that makes the ravens fly.<br />Luck his soul, lightning his eye,<br />He snatches the moons from out of the sky.&quot;<br /><br />I disagree with this theory for several reasons, though it is interesting that someone else was actually considered for who this prophecy was about.<br /><br />First of all, there's the fox medallion that Matt has that identifies that as his symbol.  And then there's the ring he buys with the fox chasing the ravens.  <br /><br />Fortune riding with that fox?  Luck his soul?  Perhaps its time to roll the dice on this one, but I'd say that this is a pretty safe reference to Matt's incredible luck.<br /><br />Snatches the moons from out of the sky?  I thought it was pretty clear that this was a reference to Matt marrying the Daughter of the Nine Moons.


created: 2004-12-04 19:09:59
subject: <b>To WindbitersFinger</b>
body:
I think the theory says that those lines do refer to Mat - Fortune, snatching the moons out of the sky, etc.  It's only the second line about the fox that's supposed to refer to Thom.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Bond-holder of Falon Deathwatch Guard, having earned the right in bloody combat.<br /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bobbafett.gif" border="0" /> Loyal Fan of Achates <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bobbafett.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /> Staunch Ciceronian <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> Acute Greekling <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-12-04 19:12:55
subject: <b>I agree with Heiti</b>
body:
And he said it all a whole lot better than I would have to!<br /><br />I always figures there were two people identified in that fragment, but I never would have thought of Thom myself. Thanks for the theory!<br /><br />And as for the sun on high... well, the sun does give light to the world, and that's related to Mat as well...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>War must be, while we defend our lives against a destroyer who would devour all; but I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend</i><br />~Faramir</font><p></p>


created: 2004-12-05 05:35:27
subject: <b>well...</b>
body:
I havent honestly though to much of it until you guys mentioned it. But my initial interpretation is like this:<br /><br />Fortune rides like the sun on high<br /> <br />Fortune refers to just plain fortune. the reason for the capital letter is that it is the first letter. And fortune is what follows Mat. Like the sun on high i think is just there for the rhyming part <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /> <br />with the fox that makes the ravens fly. <br />Mat kidnapping and marrying Tuon would make the Ravens, deathwatch, fly after him to crack his skull <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Luck his soul, lightning his eye, <br />He snatches the moons from out of the sky.<br /><br />well.. these two is already debated..<br /><br />i dont think the second line refers to thom at all. But it MIGHT so ill keep my mind open <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />good theory btw.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> Wielder of the HOlY Kizer <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lan.gif" border="0" /> Warder of Andor <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lan.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/crazy.gif" border="0" /> The sleepiest dude in the world <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/crazy.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-12-05 11:32:59
subject: <b>Another interpretation</b>
body:
I think we are forgetting the obvious solution. let's take another look on those lines:<br /><br /><br />&quot;Fortune rides like the sun on high<br /><br />whoever this refers to got his current fortunes from someone hish and shiny like the sun. lets say, Greandel<br /><br />with the fox that makes the ravens fly.<br /><br />this could be either mat or thom riding with this mysterious prophecied character.<br /><br />Luck his soul, lightning his eye,<br /><br />this is one lucky fella who's got some fast eye to hand reflexes. comes to your rescue at the most opportunate moments and is so lucky as to escape the clutches of a couple of forsaken sharans and whatnots<br /><br />He snatches the moons from out of the sky.&quot;<br /><br />now this is an obvious reference to somebody who snatches toun from out of the air while she is in the middle of a major ass-whoping-kicking.<br /><br />sounds familiar? that's right the prophecy refers to none other than our favourite Noal Farstrider. the lines talk for themselves. I rest my case.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'My name is a Guttering Flame, king of kings:<br />Look on my works, ye Mighty, and despair!'<br /><br />Every great journey begins with at least one small crunched snail.<br /><br />Agree, Disagree or don't give a damn?<br />That is indeed the question.<br /><br /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smackhead.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/crazy.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


