# w_comment

created: 2002-11-25 14:53:36
subject: <b>Ogier can get to the Eye of the World</b>
body:
Ogier can get to the Eye of the World, and the last I heard they could not channel or visit TAR.  This of course could be a matter of omission rather than impossibility, but that wouldn't explain any non-dreamwalker (like Moiraine) getting there...especially since she was unable to create gateways and would have known if she were in TAR.<br /><br />Subbie<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">No matter how you shake and dance...<br /><br />When you die you're food for worms and ants!</font><p></p>


created: 2002-11-25 15:05:10
subject: <b>Egwene...</b>
body:
...told Nynaeve and Elayne you cannot use need to find the same thing twice. She compared it to eating the same apple twice. Though the Wise Ones did tell her (I believe using some sort of grub rather than an apple).<br /><br />I like the theory. I think there are holes in it, but the idea that it is in some way connected to TAR seems quite likely to me.


created: 2002-11-25 16:18:25
subject: <b>I like it But...</b>
body:
I like your theory but I think it will end up being one of the unanswered/unresolved issues that is never explained by RJ(along with numerous others I am sure).  I think you are on the right track, though I would assume it is a distant cousin to TAR and not really TAR (see Randwashere's comments for why I think it isn't TAR)...but still an interesting theory on a refreshing subject that hasn't been battered to death a la Taimandred etc.<br /><br />If we are all lucky, when RJ finishes this godawful long (and wonderful!) series he will release a book explaining all of the more obscure instances such as this that never were fully explained by anyone's POV.<br /><br />Good try and an interesting read...but I vote no<br /><br />Belgaria <br />Newbie to Wotmania


created: 2002-11-25 21:48:39
subject: <b>Noone's saying it _is_ TAR...</b>
body:
It's an interface - it's in TAR and the real world at the same time. Which is why Ogier can find it, they can go places in the real world, and why you don't have to have any talent at Dreaming to get there. The interface was created using the OP, but linked to the Green Man, so when he died it shut down as it were and the area became just part of the blight again (which is why everything died 'cept the tree 'cause Loial sung it.) I think Burr was right about the pre-existent dimensional funkiness thing, because it is mentioned somewhere that you can't enter the Blight in TAR. So maybe this means somehow the Green Man's garden could be placed part in TAR and part in the real world, because everything around it could only be got to through the real world. Maybe the isolation helped. Or maybe all of the above makes no sense, but it was worth a try.... <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Ruriha Sedai <img src="images/personalsmilies/2150.gif" /><br />Aes Sedai of the Green Ajah<br />Officially On Holiday <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />Middle-Earth Kiwi <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" /><br />She Who Has Returned <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-11-26 02:53:24
subject: <b>Many thanks</b>
body:
Thanks to geoff_mc and Three in a Boat for finding what I was unable to find concerning need and finding twice thing.  Do you guys have quotes?  Thanks to Ruriha Sedai for pointing out the interface/intersection thing.  Peopl were missing that.<br /><br />And thanks to Matrimony Cauthon for leading me onto the search for the Bowl of Winds part of the theory on the message board.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Bob L. Sedai (a.k.a. Luge) <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /><br />Fighting off the Taint - <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tinfoilhat.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" />Thanks given to Burr, the ever-helpful theory critic<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />And to Light in the Night, fellow theorist extraordinaire<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Voted Best Screenname 1 (one) years in a row.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-11-26 06:13:24
subject: <b>You don't need to channel...</b>
body:
to get there - if I remember every now and then a borderlander who has entered the Blight to search for the Eye of the World has found there way there, not often but it does happen. <br /><br />I think it can be assumed that they can't channel as there is no mention of them being Gentled on their return, the Greenman may have been using his power (something relating to his tree singing?) to hold it out of the Blight or maybe there is a Ter'Angreal left there by the AS. <br /><br />The Greenman then had the ability to allow his garden to return to the normal world from where ever it is (be it Tar or a different dimension etc) by simply stopping using his power/Ter'Angreal when he thinks there is someone looking for him, once he dies this is no longer happening so it returns fully to the Blight.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br /><font face="centuar">John Maynard Keynes <i>Capitalism is the astounding belief that the most wickedest of men will do the most wickedest of things for the greatest good of everyone</i></font><br /><br /><font color="purple">Patternweaver's fianc&#233;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /></font><br /><i>Denice</i><br /><font color="blue">KRO</font><br /><font color="gray"><i>*bowtieless*</i></font><br /></font><p><a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1t4sdgvy-pk" target="_blank">Guinness! Evolution!</a></p><p></p>


created: 2002-11-27 01:07:53
subject: <b>This is what Someshta said:</b>
body:
&quot;This place is always where it is. All that changes is where those who need it are.&quot; tEotW, The Blight Stirs, HB, p.621. This is a quote you should have included. <br /><br /> After I read your theory, I looked that up as well as something from the BWB: &quot;The Pattern that is woven of men's lives is only one reality, part of a greater Pattern woven of each and every possible reality. But between the weave of this Great Pattern are spaces, and it is there that the ancients believed Tel'aran'rhiod exists.&quot; BWB, p.200.<br /><br /> The AoL AS studied Portal Stones, and used what they learned to create the Ways. They also had ter'angreals to ease their way into T'A'R. It is quite possible they used what they learned there to create something similar to it, or found a way to hide the Green Man and the Eye, in one of these spaces between the weave of the Pattern. Either an intersection/interface, as you said, or an artificial/man-made T'A'R.<br /><br /> I like your theory and agree with it. Good thinking!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2002-11-27 06:08:48
subject: <b>Sorry bob</b>
body:
No quote, I did it from memory. I can help you find it though. Egwene tells them in TAR (so it's almost certainly LOC or later, I'm pretty certain it's later) and at the end of the meeting Nynaeve asks Egwene if she has heard anything of Lan and she hadn't. So there you go, shouldn't be too hard to find, it's sometime before Egwene finds out about Myrelle and Lan.


created: 2002-11-29 08:22:18
subject: <b>I kind of like this</b>
body:
The need to find the Eye of the World reminds very much of looking for the Bowl of Winds. I believe it kept saying need in italics.  These are too similar for coincidence. Good theory.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">And every move I make he's got a hand up just in time<br />He's throwing several punches, and he's blocking most of mine<br />Defeated now I sulk and squirm above the frozen heights<br />Waiting, calculating till he ventures onto the ice.<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-11-30 04:10:52
subject: <b>some very good connections</b>
body:
I really like the part about need. That fits almost too well. I also agree with the whole interface thing. Remember, a bunch of Aes Sedai died making the place, maybe they got caught in TAR? Or just burned out making a place that is neither here nor there? The Aes Sedai back then could do many a thing the Aes Sedai today can't do, like making Ter'Angreal, and dreamers and such. Who knows? But the need thing, and it cannot be found without it, are enough for me to give this one thumbs up <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />. I am sure I am not the only one who wondered why book 1 was so great in that it had things like the blight and the Green Man and that. Mystical things that in the later part of the story, we don't see much of. Of course, the last battle is coming, and a full on blight assult is coming (I pray). And maybe then we will see things like the &quot;worms&quot; pupate into.. what are they called? Jumari or something? Dragons? RAFO<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Why on earth would anybody want to kidnap a groundhog?&quot;<br /><br />&quot;I can think of a few reasons, the pervert!&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2002-11-30 07:08:56
subject: <b>The EYE</b>
body:
In EOTW the green man said that the Aes Sedia died making the EYE itself not his place.  As for the rest one the creator himself knows for sure.


created: 2002-11-30 15:20:49
subject: <b>Bla Bla Bla</b>
body:
The AS made the EOTW and requested that Greenie protect it. So, he set up a protective garden around it which, maybe is slightly out of sync with reality, like Myrddraal. I recall it mentioning that one second Rand was riding in the Blight, the next he was in the garden. <br /><br />In general though, I like this theory. It is refreshing to hear something new once in a while, even if it probably makes no impact on the plot at all. Good theory<br /><br />p.s. just a note to the guy who said the Taimandred theory has been beaten to death, I think he's wrong. Taimandred will probably not be laid to rest until RJ says so. Still loyal to Taimandred. But still, no harm in arguing.<br /><br /><br />Asha'Man of the Black Tower<br />Killing AS and Darkfriends since 999 N.E for fun and profit<br />


created: 2002-12-08 22:08:15
subject: <b>Just around the corner...</b>
body:
I think Light in the night is on the right track here. The description of Someshtas garden carries no smilarity with T'A'R. But it could've been an inspiration when creating the garden. A place slightly &quot;out of sync&quot; with reality. Perhaps it's in our physical reality, but with a shift along the timeline, allowing Someshta to feel (ok, I know it's the garden itself that's drawn to the need, but you get the idea.) and decide if the need is great enough to allow the garden to be found. <br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Hopelessly fighting the devil futility<br />Feeling the monster climb deeper inside of me<br />Feeling him gnawing my heart away hungrily<br />I'll never lose this pain<br /><br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/20659.gif" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-12-09 07:49:13
subject: <b>BWB?</b>
body:
Just out of curiosity, what's this BWB that Light in the Night mentions?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Bob L. Sedai (a.k.a. Luge) <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /><br />Fighting off the Taint - <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tinfoilhat.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" />Thanks given to Burr, the ever-helpful theory critic<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />And to Light in the Night, fellow theorist extraordinaire<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Voted Best Screenname 1 (one) years in a row.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-12-23 21:12:17
subject: <b>BWB</b>
body:
Big White Book, The Guide, The World of Robert Jordan's The Wheel of Time, that.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Four things cannot be hidden- love, smoke, a pillar of fire, and a man striding across the open bled.&quot;<br />                               -<i>Fremen Saying</i><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-12-04 18:45:23
subject: <b>Seems straightforward</b>
body:
... but I have to say, if it is, then RJ threw her in a bit late. Just make up a character on the spot, say she was important all along, and turn her into Mesaana. With all the other theories on Mesaana with equally slim evidence, I think it is clear only to RJ who she is. Also, there is the age old problem - if Silviana is so powerful that she managed to rise to Mistress of Novices and possibly head of the Red Ajah, how could Mesaana have taken over her role so easily? It would always be safer to create a 'new' personality and rise to power, than to dispose of an old already powerful person. Surely RJ should have mentioned some recently personality changes in Silviana, or maybe that she came out of retirement recently, or she is newly made Aes Sedi. We have no background on her, it is true, so she could be a fake, but the situation that allows fakes to fit in are so rare that the fact it is not commented on indicates Silviana has no such history.


created: 2002-12-04 23:28:17
subject: <b>It's the time factor that bothers me</b>
body:
I am pretty sure that Alviarin went _straight_ to her apartments, and Mesaana came maybe five minutes later. We know Silviana was with Elaida for half an hour, so that gives at least a five minute overlap even if it takes Alviarin twenty minutes to walk to her apartments and I doubt this very much. It is highly improbable Mesaana could do both things. Also, I think that Mistress of Novices would be too demanding a position for a Forsaken as they would be constantly tending to that business and having little time for their own. And there's the fact that Silviana is a Red whom Elaida trusts - an unlikely Forsaken. We know next to nothing about Tiana Noselle, Egwene's Mistress of Novices, except that she is a Grey and strict. Does that make her a likely candidate for a Forsaken? (Granted there aren't any she could be, but that's not the point.) Sheriam we learned lots about because she was to become important later on. These other Mistresses of Novices don't have much impact on the politics, so they aren't as important and we don't need to know about them. I find it way more likely Mesaana knew because she eavesdropped on the conversation.<br />Also, how could Silviana be head of the Red Ajah when Galina is? The Tower Reds don't know she's a captive of the Shaido, so to them she is still head. <br /><br />More importantly, Danelle is more likely as Mesaana as there have been several suspicious mentions of her, and moreover, she is the perfect example of not caring about power outwardly. All the other Aes Sedai involved in the coup, no matter what Ajah, clung to whatever power they could have for as long as they could. Danelle, according to Alviarin, didn't even seem to notice she'd been pushed out - maybe because she is Mesaana, and has the real power - and no need to worry about appearances.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Ruriha Sedai <img src="images/personalsmilies/2150.gif" /><br />Aes Sedai of the Green Ajah<br />Officially On Holiday <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />Middle-Earth Kiwi <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" /><br />She Who Has Returned <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-12-05 05:02:27
subject: <b>I like it</b>
body:
You never know.  At least now we have a second solid suspect.  The fact that we don't know anything about her is invalid.  The unveiling of Messanna might be a plot thread for two or three books from now so there is still plenty of time for RJ to start dropping hints.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I killed Asmodean.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-12-05 06:40:15
subject: <b>Time Factor since Release</b>
body:
The Foresaken were only released a few years ago.  The people they impersonated had to come from nowhere-like Rahvin posing as a lord from near Baerlon-usually somewhere distant.  Among Aes Sedai, where every full Sister is know to most by face, name, Ajah, personality, etc. since novicehood, simply appearing as a Sister from far away won't work.  The only two possibilities is that Mesaana is impersonating someone with very few friends that wouldn't have to interact with others much or an older Sister returned to the Tower following Elaida's message.  <br />Now, the Mistress of Novices is an important position.  Would someone with few friends and little apparent political clout be a good choice?  No.  Would someone just returned after being away for many years be a good choice?  No.  The position is one of power, true, but one given to a long-time ally or clearly qualified person of many years.  Mesaana's persona in the Tower, would not fit these requirments.  <br />Woody


created: 2002-12-05 07:28:41
subject: <b>This could be similar to Taim &amp; Demandred !</b>
body:
The evidence from the theory does seem to suggest a connection between Silviana and Mesaana though and as someone else pointed out there wasn't really time for Mesaana to have given Elaida her penance and gone to see Alviarin too.<br />So this could mean that Silviana is working for Mesaana (I'm not sure how controversial this next bit is these days !) just like Taim is working for Demandred.


created: 2002-12-05 07:36:54
subject: <b>I don't think it is her</b>
body:
As has been said above it would be to hard to have got herself in position within the timescale without anybody being very suspicio, it would be risky to use compulsion to make anybody think that they remembered her as well while. she would also have to have an inverted weave the whole time to disguise the fact that she doesn't have the ageless look, while if she took on the role of a non AS in the Tower it would be far easier to appear from no where as a servant looking for work - BA would make sure she got a good job, head chef or something<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br /><font face="centuar">John Maynard Keynes <i>Capitalism is the astounding belief that the most wickedest of men will do the most wickedest of things for the greatest good of everyone</i></font><br /><br /><font color="purple">Patternweaver's fianc&#233;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /></font><br /><i>Denice</i><br /><font color="blue">KRO</font><br /><font color="gray"><i>*bowtieless*</i></font><br /></font><p><a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1t4sdgvy-pk" target="_blank">Guinness! Evolution!</a></p><p></p>


created: 2002-12-05 09:29:25
subject: <b>Maybe. It's plausible.</b>
body:
But Silviana turns up only that one time - mostly, important characters, however disguised, show up a lot. <br /><br />We'll RAF<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br />I'm here.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-12-05 18:31:34
subject: <b>Thanks for posting this</b>
body:
I've thought about this for a while, but never got around to it. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> Here are a few more points that may help. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />1) Silviana was also in the prologue to tFoH (I think) when Elaida sets up her &quot;inner circle&quot;. She was one of the original 13 or so with Elaida.<br /><br />2) We know that Mesaana has increasingly important duties in the tower. While else would she teach Alvi how to Travel, and let Alvi run those errands for her?<br /><br />3) As the Mistress of Novices, her duties would be time consuming, giving Silviana a good excuse to distance herself from any old friends. Also, with her new duties, any change in temperment/behavior could be attributed to the new job.<br /><br />4) As to the timing, let's not forget Mesaana can Travel. She also would know how to invert her weaves, thus Traveling without anyone &quot;feeling&quot; it.  We don't know how long it took Alvi to get to her rooms, or how long she was there before Mesaana showed up.<br /><br />All in all, a very good theory. Even if Danelle is the obvious choice. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br />PS-Does it actually say the &quot;beating&quot; took half an hour, or did it just seem like half an hour to Elaida?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Throughout history, when people get wood, I want them to think of Trojans&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/oh.gif" border="0" /> Ned Flanders, aka The King Troy<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-green.gif" border="0" /> &quot;That's no Moon...&quot; &quot;Here, let me hike those up for ya&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-green.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-12-05 18:41:19
subject: <b>Very Interesting</b>
body:
I do admit that Silviana is still second on my list to Dannelle.  The Mistress of novices would be an Aes Sedai who was well known, but if Messaana is impersonating any Aes Sedai she is going to have to deal with this to some extent.  I mean yes it would be easier to impersonate a newly raised Aes Sedai, but even those will have spent atleast 5-7 years as a novice and accepted.  There really aren't any Aes Sedai that are isolated from the others.  They're are so few and the training process is so long that every Aes Sedai has a group of other Aes Sedai who know her well.  So the length of Silviana's carreer is a problem, but not insurmountable.  <br />    The part of this theory I really like however is the link between Mesaana as a former teacher and the position of Mistress of Novices.  I never thought of that before, but I agree with you.  If Mesaana could pick any one position in the tower she would probably pick that one.  Nice catch!


created: 2002-12-05 18:48:45
subject: <b>Missing the point...</b>
body:
As the author of this theory mentioned in his/her post.  The position of Mistress of the novices is up Messana's alley.  It's a perfect fit. It matches her profile from the guild.  <br /><br />Someone mentions that the timeline doesn't work.  I would disagree.  I beleive that it does work.  Silviana shows up right after Alvirian leaves.  Elaida has set up shop in the top of the White Tower.  It takes awhile to climb or decend from her study.  My next question is this.  Did Alvirian go straight to her rooms?  The reason I ask is because we know that Silviana showed up right after Alvirian left Elaida.  It seems to me that the timeline works.<br /><br />I believe that Messana was Danelle in the beginning.  She accomplished what she wanted to and now has assumed another alais. ( i.e. bringing down Suin and causing the split in the tower).  As Silviana she is now recruiting for the shadow.  Easier to convert the children.  Will the Edmonds field girls be among the converted?<br /><br />As for those that believe that the job is demanding I agree. Why do you think that Messana is delegating to Alvirian????<br /><br />Nice theory!  Well done.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2002-12-05 18:51:05
subject: <b>Forgot to add something....</b>
body:
Messana is calling the shots in the tower.  Its as easy as &quot;Alvirian have Elaida appoint Silviana as the Mistress of the novices&quot;.  DONE.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2002-12-05 19:02:27
subject: <b>I agree</b>
body:
Given that Aes sedai have very rigid systems of deciding deference, at that these can take many years to manifest themselves, I think it very unlikely that Mesaana, who has been trapped until a couple of years ago, could have risen to any great amount of power posing as an Aes sedai.<br /><br />LARAS for MESAANA!!<br /><br />Shooganooga<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;I can express more emotion than laughter, anger and let's . . .&quot;<br /><br />Shooganooga<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-12-05 21:25:42
subject: <b>Just a few thoughts to add</b>
body:
Just want to make a few additional remarks about my theory. First of all, let me say that I can definitely sympathize with  all the arguments against the theory, since I had to talk myself out of almost all of them when the idea first hit me. Some others have posted some ideas supporting the theory, but let me just run with objections for a bit, if you'll humor me. (Hey, give me a break, my friends are all tired of me spouting WoT theories!)<br /><br />Objection 1: Time-frame problems. <br /><br />My reply: If you accept the fact that Mesaana couldn't be Silviana because the time frame is too tight (in other words, Silviana's meeting with Elaida is simultaneous to Alviarin's meeting with Mesaana), logically, then, nobody would have had time to TELL Mesaana about the meeting, which means she has some secret means of eavesdropping anywhere without detection, at any time. However, if she has this ability, why does she need Alviarin to help her find out why the Ajah heads are meeting secretly? Why can't she just &quot;eavesdrop&quot; and find out? I don't buy it. If, on the other hand, we loosen up the time frame by a half-hour or so, hence allowing time for the news to travel to Mesaana via informant, we also allow the possiblity for the simplest solution to the communication problem--that none was required because Mesaana was one of the involved parties. BTW, the length of the penance is &quot;only a half hour by the chimes of Cemaile's clock&quot; according to Elaida's POV, so it's actually made perfectly, undeniably clear that the penance lasted for a particular, short length of time. Interesting.<br /><br />Objection 2. It's too difficult for Mesaana to have moved into this position of power so quickly. <br /><br />My reply: I don't think so; is it any less implausible that some random lordling from the middle of nowhere suddenly is a high lord of Tear? or a noble in Cairhien? I think the Forsaken have proven themselves pretty adroit at assuming postions of power in an unreasonably short amount of time. Also, taking on Silviana's identity as a Red would be a smart choice, since she'd have a plausible &quot;in&quot; with Elaida and with Galina, to anyone who might think the Mistress of Novices choice suspicious. Galina, as head of Elaida's former Ajah (before being raised Amyrlin), would maybe have some pull in voicing an opinion on who should be Mistress of Novices. And Galina, as a member of the Supreme Council for the Blacks, could have taken her request from anyone she knew was &quot;higher up&quot; as a Darkfriend, so Alviarin wouldn't even necessarily have to have been part of the decision--for all Alviarin knows, Silviana was Elaida's choice alone.<br /><br />Objection 3: It's too difficult for Mesaana to do her Forsaken &quot;job&quot; and still fulfill the duties of Mistress of Novices. <br /><br />My reply: I don't see that Mesaana had done anything much at all other than hang out in the WT--she never shows up at the meetings with other Forsaken; she's never seen doing anything else. She tells Alviarin (ch. 25 of PoD--again!) that Galina's &quot;gotten herself killed&quot; so that sounds to me like she's relying on Alviarin's information on that score, which means she's not running around outside the WT at all. Also, how better to know everything that happens in the WT, plus have a reason for talking to practically anyone, than  by being Mistress of Novices? She would have constant interaction with all the novices and Accepted, and with any Aes Sedai she chose if they had recently sent someone (or been sent) for punishment, which is rampant at the moment in the WT. But nobody'd really want to &quot;hang out&quot; with her, or befriend her, really, so she'd have the best of both worlds--lots of interaction and information but no friends. And she wouldn't have had to win any popularity contests to be appointed; she'd simply have to be known as a good teacher/disciplinarian and show a knack for keeping students in line to be a logical choice--gee, sure sounds like Mesaana to me!<br /><br />Objection 4: We haven't seen Silviana enough.<br /><br />My reply: Well, no, we haven't. But we haven't really seen Mesaana much either, have we? I'd be kind of bummed out myself if Mesaana's exposed as ANYONE in, say, Chapter 3 of CoT, but I'll be surprised if we don't see more of Silviana and further hints along this line in the next book. I'd say CoT would be the book for the definitive unmasking of Semirhage or Demandred, but not all 3. This is one objection where I look forward to some good ole RAFO action.<br /><br />Objection 5: Danelle is too suspicious not to be Mesaana.<br /><br />My reply: I think it makes sense to assume that Danelle is either Black Ajah, a Forsaken, or under compulsion by a Forsaken, due to her actions, but I can't find a Danelle scene or combination of facts about her that makes me feel, &quot;Ah ha! Caught her!&quot; which proves beyond doubt which of those three options apply. Personally, I like her as another direct informant, either through compulsion or BA connections, for Mesaana, giving her a simlar role to Alviarin. Since she's Brown, it would be awfully handy for Mesaana to be using her to a) be her secondary informant from the Sitters to keep tabs on Alviarin's reports, and b) research ter angreal and obsure prophecies of the Dragon for her while she's busy whipping novices. If she's busy running Mesaana's errands, it makes sense that she'd be distracted, and if she's under compulsion, her description as &quot;dreamy&quot; would jive with other accounts of compulsion, specifically from Verin's POV in the prologue for PoD. Even more suspicious Danelle activity, or signs of compulsion, are other things I'll be watching for in CoT as evidence.<br /><br />OK, I'll stop tormenting you all now! I have to finish rereading the series before Jan 7 so I'd better stop this post sometime! It will be fun to find out who Mesaana is, but, like I said, I think I'd be disappointed if RJ didn't keep us hanging for at least one more book. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Connie


created: 2002-12-05 22:06:03
subject: <b>cool.</b>
body:
Every other theory about Mesaana I've read was pretty thin, this one is cool. I honestly think conniechapple has uncovered Mesaana. I mean it is so obvious...Mesaana wanted to be a great teacher and was disgruntled by the fact she wasn't. The most obvious place in the white tower for Mesaana to take would be mistress of novices.


created: 2002-12-05 23:48:23
subject: <b>I like your theory but...</b>
body:
disagree that Messana cannot also be Danelle.  You mention that she is dreamy and this points to compulsion.  I will tell you that Suin also assumed she was dreamy until they showed up in her study to strip her of the stole.  Suin mentions in this scene that Danelle wasn't dreamy anymore, that she had a different look in her eyes.<br /><br />Early in the series;<br />Messana is Danelle = stilling of Suin and split in the tower.<br />Later in the series;<br />Messana is Silviana = recruiting dreadlords for the shadow and doing what she loves.  Also allows for Alvirian's role and Messana delegating to her.<br /><br />Messana is using both still or just Silviana and we will not see Danelle again.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2002-12-06 00:33:27
subject: <b>She can't be both.</b>
body:
If she has posed as both....we know Danelle was around before the coup, people know her, so it is safe to assume Mesaana (if she is Danelle) killed her and took her identity. She could not risk having the real Danelle around anywhere. But then, later, if she becomes Silviana, she would have to kill Silviana and become her. Who would be Danelle, who we know is still around? You'd have to say that she is being both at the same time, and that is not plausible. Either she's Danelle, or she's Silviana, and she has been one of those the WHOLE time. No having your cake and eating it too. I personally believe it's Danelle, essentially because there is a lot more subtle evidence for her, and Silviana is just not present enough. The only times she is mentioned is in the beating scene and once in TFoH when Elaida sends an Accepted to her. She is no more of a viable proposition than any other Aes Sedai mentioned in that chapter (who we don't know much about) and in some ways less due to the fact she must have that experience. She could be, but it would be extremely disappointing, not to mention feel like a &quot;oh, better mention the character Mesaana's hiding as&quot;job - Danelle, on the other hand, has the evidence, the screen time, and the other qualifications such as no friends and dreaminess. <br /><br />One other important thing you are forgetting is that Mesaana DID NOT want to be a teacher. She DID want to be a researcher, but was denied this. Teaching was something she was forced into, not something she wanted. I feel a member of the Brown Ajah would be a pose she would enjoy more as she could be a researcher, accepted as a researcher, instead of being shoved into the (to her) second-rate teaching position.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Ruriha Sedai <img src="images/personalsmilies/2150.gif" /><br />Aes Sedai of the Green Ajah<br />Officially On Holiday <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />Middle-Earth Kiwi <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" /><br />She Who Has Returned <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-12-06 13:28:52
subject: <b>Research vs. Teaching</b>
body:
Mesaana never wanted to be a teacher. She wanted to be a researcher. (See link below) Browns are researchers by nature. Mistress of Novices is primarily a teacher, secondary a disciplinarian. Both of these take patience. Mesaana is not a person known to have a lot of patience with dunderheads. Her reaction to Alviarin re: beating and at other times shows this.<br /><br />I don't discount the theory; however, the argument that she gravitated to the field (i.e. teacher) that she preferred doesn't hold water. If that was the case she would definitely have gravitated to the brown as opposed to any contact with novices.<br /><br />She turned to the shadow when turned down for the research job and instead was given a teaching job.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br />http://photeus.com/~ewot/characters/mesaana.html<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/myrddraal.gif" border="0" /> Gasper the friendly Fade <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/myrddraal.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-12-06 14:18:47
subject: <b>Ruriha Sedai...</b>
body:
I agree with you in that Danelle is the #1 suspect.  I always have.  Saying that, I believe that you are wrong when you suggest that she couldn't be Silviana as well as Danelle.  Or that she was Danelle and now Danelle is no more.  <br /><br />Give Messana some credit.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2002-12-06 15:00:04
subject: <b>I'm a little biased</b>
body:
since it's my theory and all, so of course I think I'm right, but actually I'm pretty thrilled that anyone at all agrees with me; the Danelle arguments are fairly convincing. I just think the Silviana evidence is incontrovertible. Should be fun to RAFO either way--I cannot WAIT for CoT! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Connie


created: 2002-12-09 00:28:42
subject: <b>Little known, Is not that the Game</b>
body:
From what we know of Jordan, we know little of the Forsaken and the suspects that they could be posing as.  For example, Anath is a mysterious new Voice of Truth for Tuon with relatively little history behind her.  We don't know what Semirhage is up to.  Gaebril, High Lord Samon, and Lord Brend were previous unknowns before being exposed as Rahvin, Be'lal, and Sammael (of whom we knew little).  Lanfear posed as Keille, the Darkfriend trader with Kadere.  Osan'gar as Dashiva, Aran'gar as Halima, a servant to Cabriana Sedai (Semirhage's questionee).  Asmodean as Natael, Moghedien as Gyldin.  Do we see a pattern yet?  Each Forsaken I am willing to bet has or had a disguise in which to hide behind, the bold as well as the cautious.  Taim despite heated debate still has suspicious comparable characteristics to Demandred, who is among the unplaceable.  The only Forsaken I know not to have a disguise or make an effort for one is Ishamael/Moridin.  Each time he is out in the open, but it seems he disdains the other establishments his colleagues indulge in.  However, he makes himself scarce even to the rest of the Forsaken, appearing only when he needs to.  Only Moghedien and Cyndane, his newly appointed servants, seem to have an idea at anytime where Moridin is.<br /><br />I will take a stab and guess that the disguises for the Forsaken have become more layered and convincing as Rand extends his influence and possible enemy strongholds (White Tower, Black Tower, Seanchan) become harder to infiltrate.  We saw Halima and Dashiva appear with sketchy histories, but I might point out that both were just newly reinstated to rank, probably with either Moridin or the Dark One taking a more direct approach as to how to integrate them into the enemy's bases.  We know Demandred was a master of disguises.  No one could place him anywhere.  No one could find out where his base was.  The same was for Mesaana.  Mesaana being in the White Tower was a surprise.  To get into the Tower, she would either have to be a servant, a novice, or someone else with an impenetrable disguise.  Forsaken being Forsaken, what must be done?  Perhaps it was easiest to steal an indentity already place.  We know they knew how to weave Illusion as well or better than those in the Tower.  Silviana we know little about.  Being a Red, she had no Warder, so no trip switch if anything happened to her.  But what about strength in the Power?  We do not know how strong she was, but we can reasonably suspect that if the Forsaken know how to hide their ability, what can keep them from disguising their ability as something else?  We must also remember that Compulsion opened up many doors with the Forsaken as anything else.  Mesaana could have Compulsed Silviana's life story from her and then dispose of her just as easily.  Being able to invert weaves must have been helpful.  Judging the Forsaken for what they are, what could be more fitting?


created: 2002-12-10 08:01:41
subject: <b>I have been for a while</b>
body:
been of the idea that Mesaana is posing as Tarna Feir...<br />it is not a bad argumet though... However, Silviana might as well have been black.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> <font color="a52a2a">Magnus Alexander corpore parvus erat </font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <font color="b8860b">Dissenting voice of wotmania</font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <br /><font color="6495ed">Frightfully stubborn pacifist</font> <br /><br /><i><font color="669900"> Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent</font></i></font><p></p>


created: 2002-12-10 09:29:29
subject: <b>Mesaana = nobody</b>
body:
The Tower is a perfect place to hide.  You could use compulsion to have your meals brought to you.  It would explain some why Mesaana cannot seem to find out some things without help.


created: 2004-11-06 02:27:33
subject: <b>Nope...</b>
body:
I can't believe that nobody has brought this up before.  The main argument for this theory is that the only people who know about Elaida's beating sessions are Silviana, Alviarin, and Elaida.  However, this is FALSE!!  In ACoS, Alviarin specifically comments on the fact that Mesaana has Alviarin go through everything that she and Elaida talk about -- <b>and corrects her when she leaves something out.</b>  Obviously, Mesaana is eavesdropping on Elaida frequently.  This is also a way of keeping her pupil in check.  Alviarin never knows when Mesaana is watching.  So, Mesaana could easily know about Elaida's beatings.  With this major argument trashed, we are forced to return to the old standard (and far more plausible) explanation that Mesaana=Danelle.<br /><br />AgingComputer is on the case.  (Hehe...I've always wanted to say that.)


created: 2007-12-14 00:54:07
subject: <b>cheeky response</b>
body:
Alviarin is actually Mesaana, but sadly she suffers from multiple personality disorder.  Poor thing makes a decision and then later punishes herself for it.<br /><br />Okay, I had to say it... <br /><br />I also have to say that this theory is as good as any, everyone seems to leap at the Danelle story because she had no friends, is dreamy and didn't hang onto her potentially powerful place via the coup.  But let's face it, that's a fairly standard description of nearly every Brown in the Tower (or Rebel Camp)... <br /><br />I do like the theory that Mesaana may not even be directly in the tower itself... I posed Sharina as a potential candidate on the MB, but that's no stronger than the rest.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I'm a Domani Drag Queen who went to the Black tower.  Leane is my 3rd cousin twice removed and I showed her how to use make-up!<br /><br />I don't deal in absolutes or spell check!</font><p></p>


created: 2002-12-11 15:01:30
subject: <b>the ToG is a ter'angreal !!!!</b>
body:
I see no reason there can't be other gateways to world of the snakes and foxes.  On the other hand, the tower of ghenjei is a ter'angreal as well and is probably one of the ter'angreal (if not the only ter'angreal) that RJ is talking about.   But before I say why lets deal with the other possibilities.<br /><br />In principle, the memories may come from people entering the snakey gateway which is now at Tear.  There are many indications that the snakey and foxey worlds are linked.  The major problem with that is that the snakey gateway has been used long after Hawkwing but Mat's memory extends only to the fall of Aldeshar during Hawkwing's lifetime.  There is a difference of 600 to 700 years or so.  Even if the gateway was used rarely there surely would be one memory from that period. Then again maybe not if the foxes had enough memories to choose from.<br /><br />There are two main reasons some if not all of the memories probably come from using the tower of genjei, though. <br /><br />The first comes from RJs statement and Birgittes statement about it to Perrin.  RJ states that only men/women? of daring entered the land beyond the ter'angreal.  Birgitte states that to win against the foxes and the snakes you had to cheat.  These facts seem to suggest it isn't a gateway.  Cheating doesn't seem to be necessary, if you know the rules, to use the gateways.  It takes some daring to enter the gateways, but it hardly seems quite enough.  Birgitte's shock seems to suggest that knowledge of the snakes and foxes was widespread during Birgitte's last incarnation (sometime before Hawkwing.)  If it wasn't extremely dangerous and the knowledge was as widespread as Birgitte seems to imply there would be as many people entering the ter'angreal as there are hunters of the horn now!  There probably wasn't so therefore entering the land beyond the ter'angreals must be <i>extremely</i> dangerous.<br /><br />The second reason the gateway is probably the tower of ghenjei is because most of Mat's memories come from Manetheren.  Manetheren contains the tower of ghenjei within its border.  This is also true about Aldeshar the country from which his last memory comes from.  (Mat has had other memories from countries that contain Illian and Mayene.)  The biggest problem with this is that Mat has no known memories from Aridhol and that the memories dry up after Hawkwing.  <br /><br />It is possible that all of Mat's memories were from the snakey gateway that was found first by Manetheren moved slightly to Aldeshar after Manetheren fell, was carted off by Hawkwing, and finally delivered to Mayene by Hawkwings lone 'son'.  On the other hand, I personally think it was the ToG.  (Maybe it was both.)<br /><br />Finally, I disagree completly with Lauriana Sedai when she says that RJ changed his mind by saying that Mat's memories are taken from people other than Mat's former lives.  The clues are there from the beginning.  One example is that Mat thinks about the memories coming from a hundred men (The most any one soul can live is about 30 times or so.)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">RabidWombat<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> Let the Lord of Rambling Thoughts rule <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> Proud owner of a 2 star rating! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /> Someone stole all my cookies <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-12-11 17:07:32
subject: <b>I agree about too many memories</b>
body:
Mat implies he has had several different points of view of Artur Hawkwing.  &quot;In some of those memories he didn't like Hawkwing at all.&quot;  (I believe LoC, but I'm not sure.  Maybe FoH).  Also, since most of his memories come from Manetheren, that would imply (if he was reliving past lives) that he was related to himself, if he was repeatedly reborn as Manetheren nobility, and is currently descended from Aemon, as Moiraine and Thom implied in EotW.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


created: 2002-12-11 18:27:32
subject: <b>Not all of Mat's memories come from OTHER people</b>
body:
When he is waking up from being healed from the SL dagger, in Book 3, The Dragon Reborn, Chap 19, Awakenings, he clearly has a flashback about the fall of Manetheren. In it he is commanding the Heart Guard that protects the King. This is where a lot of people draw the bit about him being Aemon reborn, concluding that Aemon commands his own guard, witch I can buy into. Anyway, this is BEFORE he goes to Rhuidean in book 4. So, book 3 is before book 4, and Mat clearly has a flashback in book 3. <br /><br />Now, the Tower of Ghenjei can be seen from the river Arinelle. If you look at the map this river forks off to cover quite a large area. So, can&#8217;t one assume that people, adventurous people, traveling the river, as we have seen people use the river for transportation, would see this metal tower off in the distance just like Rand did, go to investigate (it sounds like Bayle Domon has done this once to know it&#8217;s metal without any rust on it, you can&#8217;t tell this from the river). And perhaps they walk around it a few times, like Perrin was doing in TAR when Birgitte stopped him after he made two circuits around, but Mat and company makes 3 circuits around it counterclockwise and bam, they are in.<br /><br />Mat BTW, thinks their might be treasure in the Tower of Ghenjei. I can only assume that if he sees this thing again, on foot or in a boat, and his love for money, he is going to go check it out?<br /><br /> But really, it&#8217;s all RAFO. <br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Why on earth would anybody want to kidnap a groundhog?&quot;<br /><br />&quot;I can think of a few reasons, the pervert!&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2002-12-11 19:31:28
subject: <b>A possible twisted doorway in Seanchan ?</b>
body:
For this post I'm assuming that :<br />1. the things that the Foxes have in their realm that can be given to visitors (e.g. memories, objects) are taken in by other visitors, hence the memories given to Mat were taken from previous visitors and the Medallion and Ashanderei likewise.<br />2. the Ashanderei is from (or has been in) Seanchan - note the ravens on the shaft and blade, the raven is the sigil of the ruling family in Seachan, not Hawkwings family.<br /><br />With these assumptions I think it's worth saying that there was/is possibly a twisted doorway in Seanchan.<br /><br />Of course it may be that the Ashanderei somehow got from Seanchan to Randland and then into the Foxes realm before that doorway was moved to Rhuidean, i.e. before the Breaking.


created: 2002-12-12 01:00:50
subject: <b>I totally agree</b>
body:
In fact you beat me to the punch. I was recently going through the RJ interviews and came to the same conclusion. I feel very strongly that the ToG is the ter'angreal doorway that they used. It's location points to this, as well as its description of being made in the AoL(shiny metal, no rust). Very likely, since most of Mat's memories are from Manetheren. Good Work!<br /><br /> A little more Light in the Night.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2002-12-12 08:19:38
subject: <b>well let's see..</b>
body:
Most his memorys must be from finnland ok i don't remember pages or books they from but.. Mat has had 2 views from same battle...one flash back he's the guy on one side the other a guy on other. sometimes he's faced himself *someone he has memory of* so those memorys MUST be from the finns..as how can your soul be in 2 bodys at once??  <br /><br />It seems the taint of the dagger opened up memorys of earlier lives  but also corupted his memory in general *all the holes* maybe it's him not being able to channel..the taint that breaks down the wall between present and past memorys..  <br />So he had flashbacks of past lives like maddened male channels do..but he had missing memorys too..so he gets goes to finns and get's filled with the memorys of the others..<br /><br />The Ravens on his Ashanderei /seanchean link is vage..maybe the pattern/his taverness just made it so of all the Ashanderei he's hanged on it had to be one with ravens to open up the DOTNM interest in him.. that is how they ended up hooking up isn't it..<br /><br />Twisted doorway..ok i forgot if he has memorys from finns AFTER the fall of Manetheren... If not then the doorway  most likely in Manetheren it falls in the Trollwar and BOOM no more ppl enter to add to his memory ..also there's most likely another doorway somewhere...all that knowledge about the Waterfolk ...*the women vs mat thing about the bowl of the wind*


created: 2002-12-12 09:33:03
subject: <b>I just re-read my comment...</b>
body:
And I can't find the part that Rabid Wombat disagrees with! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> I just said that RJ is tricky - I don't recall ever mentioning that he'd 'changed his mind.' <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" /> Not to nit-pick, but if you want to argue with me, at least argue a point that I've actually addressed. I just mean to say that I've gotten to the point where I don't like to guess about this stuff because RJ has surprised me with a couple of _other_ issues that have nothing to do with this theory. Still, it's good to know that people like Rabid Wombat are around to keep me on my toes. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><font color="blud">The Blonde Domani</font><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><b>Bonded to Crazy ol Lews Therin</b><br /><font color="blue"><i><b>God is a comedian playing to an audience too afraid to laugh. -Voltaire</b></i></font><br /><font color="blut">No man in his heart is quite so cynical as a well-bred woman.</font></font><p></p>


created: 2002-12-12 09:41:05
subject: <b>I don't think Ravens has to mean Seanchan</b>
body:
There are Ravens throughout westland, surely somebody else could have put them on things. Also, Ravens are like Mat. RJ said in his latest interview on this site that Ravens will pretty much chase off a Hawk or and Eagle. So I did a little net research, and this turns out to be true. Ravens are said to be some of the smartest and clever birds there are. By working in teams, one would sneak up on another bird, and bite its tail, while others would swoop in and steal the eagle's food. They also have the largest brains of birds. And can do small problem solving. They are not all like this, but like humans, there are few in every group who shine. <br /><br />Ravens are also the only birds you will ever see goofing off. That is, some of them seem to spend some time just playing. They will do things like show off in front of other Ravens by hanging upside down with one foot. Lay on their backs and juggle things with their feet. They also have been known to do things like fly upside down, and other aerial maneuvers that serve no purpose but &quot;hot-dogging&quot;. Ravens are the tricksters of the bird kingdom you might say. <br /><br />I don't know where they got Mat's Naginata (his sword staff, what it&#8217;s really called) or his foxhead. Maybe they were with the other Ter&#8217;angreal the Aiel hauled to Rheudean. Maybe they came from their realm. But I don't think the Ashanderei had to come from Seanchan just because it had ravens on it.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Why on earth would anybody want to kidnap a groundhog?&quot;<br /><br />&quot;I can think of a few reasons, the pervert!&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2002-12-12 10:58:33
subject: <b>In a web chat</b>
body:
Jordan was asked if the ashanderei came from the Age of Legends and he said yes. Of course that doesn't mean the ravens were originally on it, but they could have been.


created: 2002-12-12 16:11:32
subject: <b>Re: &quot;The most any soul can live is 30 times or so&quot;</b>
body:
That's probably a mathematical assumption and should be tagged with &#8220;per age&#8221;. If a person lives 70-80 years, then in a 3000 year-long age, assuming a little lag time between incarnations, each soul could be recycled approximately 30 times.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Rob<br /><br />&quot;I am satisfied that your answer is correct. I am not, however, satisfied that your answer is right...&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2002-12-12 16:12:14
subject: <b>An apology (to Lauriana Sedai) and other stuff</b>
body:
First of all I apologize to Lauriana Sedai for putting words in her mouth.  I reread what she wrote and found nothing to support my statement.  The only thing I can say in defence of myself is that I was tired and I completely misread it!  (The sad part is that I considered trying to get an exact quote, but I was too tired to put in the effort <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/frown.gif" border="0" />  .  Sometimes not taking the extra effort causes more effort in the long run. )<br /><br />Second, I made another error in the above post.  I stated something to the effect that the 'maximum number of times a person can be reborn is around thirty.'  What I meant to say is that a maximum reasonable amount of times that a person can be reborn over the period of Mat's memories (which span around 1700 years) is around 30 times.   For a person to live one hundred times over that period they would have to have an average lifespan of 17 years!  In any case the memories would not be near continuous because there wouldn't be many useful memories from the person's childhood.   We can, of course, ask the question of how accurate Mat's figure of 100 is.  <br /><br />I still think that the most of the rest of my post is reasonable and I will stick by it until the next person blows a major hole in it <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/frown.gif" border="0" /> .<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">RabidWombat<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> Let the Lord of Rambling Thoughts rule <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> Proud owner of a 2 star rating! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /> Someone stole all my cookies <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-12-12 18:02:39
subject: <b>Rabid...</b>
body:
I think you were thinking of the last line written by &quot;scogcat&quot; where he says <br /><br />&quot;Of course, this whole loophole may have been inadvertently created by Jordan while trying to close another&quot;<br /><br />...you just attributed it wrongly to Lauriana <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Anyway, I think this is a good theory.<br /><br />Belgaria<br />


created: 2002-12-13 01:33:18
subject: <b>you know what I think?</b>
body:
I think a lot of people are reading this theory wrong. What orig poster is saying, is that there are other ways to enter Snaky/foxy folk realm other then the ToG (Tower of Ghenjai). He/she (not sure) is suggesting that there are other paths in, either via Seanchan or by like other country&#8217;s&#8230; ergo, another Ter&#8217;angreal doorframe. I am saying NO, I think they will enter via the Tower of Ghenjei. Mat will come across it, and want to go in. It is all going to be by accident. I am saying that the other fellows in Mat's head, are there because they went down the Arinelle, saw the tower off in the distance, and went into it, via a mistake, they were just circling around it, counterclockwise, looking for a way in, and that was all they needed, they did three loops around counter clock, and they got in.  These are the adventurous fellows that Mat now has in his head. How much do I think this will happen, well, say 80%, I better give myself some room. After all, it's RAFO.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Why on earth would anybody want to kidnap a groundhog?&quot;<br /><br />&quot;I can think of a few reasons, the pervert!&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2002-12-13 04:25:12
subject: <b>Reflections</b>
body:
First, I would retract my statement about this being an inadvertant loophole created. I agree that there are too many men's memories for them to have been originally intended to be Mat's former lives alone. <br /><br />Second, I doubt there would be any ter'angreal in question to be in Seanchan. Or at least ever used. I doubt it because of two reasons: 1. Seanchan fear/hatred of the One Power, and anything connected to it. I do not think any ter'angreal would be about for just anyone to hop through. And 2. becuase none of Mat's memories are from Seanchan men. <br /><br />Thirdly, while I will concede that the ter'angreal in question may in fact be the ToG, I still am not completely sold on it. Granted, its location within the borders of Manetheren fits great. However, RJ's statements make me think that the ToG is not our suspect ter'angreal. To me, his statement makes me think that people knew right off the bat that what they saw was a ter'angreal. If the ToG were the suspect ter'angreal, I believe Mat would have memories of poor fools who just happen to be walking around the thing and happened to be transported to the Aelfinn land. <br /><br />No, to me, it seems that the ter'angreal we are looking for is/was something more like the twisted doorways. Something that made the common man take a detour well away from. <br /><br />Now, with that said, the ToG is still fully capable of being the transport for Thom and co. to use in rescuing Moiraine. Even if the ter'angreal that I propose did exist, that isn't to say that they are still around somewhere. They could have been destroyed at some time in the past.


created: 2002-12-13 05:37:33
subject: <b>Jordan's misstep</b>
body:
If I recall well, Mat had seen himself diying in at least one of his memories. If the memories are from adventurers who had crossed to *finnland... How can anyone cross being dead?<br />(sorry for the bad english)


created: 2002-12-13 09:00:46
subject: <b>Some good points</b>
body:
Quote:<i>I believe Mat would have memories of poor fools who just happen to be walking around the thing and happened to be transported to the Aelfinn land.</i><br /><br />It&#8217;s not a bad point, but then again, he doesn&#8217;t recall them walking into Redstone Doorways either, so I don&#8217;t know if that matters.<br /><br />Quote:<i>&#8220;If I recall well, Mat had seen himself diying in at least one of his memories. If the memories are from adventurers who had crossed to *finnland... How can anyone cross being dead?&#8221;</i><br /><br />I guess that depends on how long the snakes can savor ones memories. Maybe the visit works like a flag, once you&#8217;re in; they get all your memories till you die, ergo, you&#8217;re flagged to pass them all your memories. Another possibility is that that mat&#8217;s memory of dying is from a former life. Like I said earlier, and regardless of what RJ said during the Q&amp;A, Mat has his first flashback before he ever visit Rhuidean, in chapter 19 of book 3, it&#8217;s in the very beginning. This can only be a past life, and not the memory of some other person.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Why on earth would anybody want to kidnap a groundhog?&quot;<br /><br />&quot;I can think of a few reasons, the pervert!&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2002-12-13 09:03:47
subject:
<b>*nods to wombat* Thanks! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /></b>

body:
A man who can admit his mistakes is truly a rare find. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> Thanks to Belgaria, too, for figuring out where the confusion came from. I'm going to be a little slow until I recover from finals. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> Actually, it's just good to know that the other voice in my head isn't typing up erroneous comments while I'm away. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> *cocks head to one side as though listening, then nods decisively*<br /><br />Gee, the voice is telling me to go delete all the pending theories - gotta run. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> Heh-heh. Just kidding folks. <br /><br />Oh yeah, Spanish_fan raises an interesting question. How does Mat remember dying? If the finns were somehow in possesion of that particular man's memories of death, wouldn't that suggest that the man had gone to 'finnland' _after_ his death? Is this an RJ accident, or are the finns in some way a part of the afterlife-experience in the WoT universe? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> It's great to have _something_ new to consider! You people rock!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><font color="blud">The Blonde Domani</font><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><b>Bonded to Crazy ol Lews Therin</b><br /><font color="blue"><i><b>God is a comedian playing to an audience too afraid to laugh. -Voltaire</b></i></font><br /><font color="blut">No man in his heart is quite so cynical as a well-bred woman.</font></font><p></p>


created: 2002-12-13 10:39:15
subject: <b>Ways that Mat could remember dying</b>
body:
I can think of 2 ways the Finns could have access to memories where the person seems to die<br /><br />1. The person is delivered a near fatal blow and recovers later to journey to the land of the Finns (this assumes that Mat has only chunks of people's memories so it just cuts of a certian points)<br /><br />2. It has been sugested that the Finns have a link to T'A'R, maybe once they've seen a soul when someone comes to see them they can then find it again after they die and the soul goes to T'A'R where they take some of it's memories<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br /><font face="centuar">John Maynard Keynes <i>Capitalism is the astounding belief that the most wickedest of men will do the most wickedest of things for the greatest good of everyone</i></font><br /><br /><font color="purple">Patternweaver's fianc&#233;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /></font><br /><i>Denice</i><br /><font color="blue">KRO</font><br /><font color="gray"><i>*bowtieless*</i></font><br /></font><p><a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1t4sdgvy-pk" target="_blank">Guinness! Evolution!</a></p><p></p>


created: 2002-12-13 11:19:05
subject: <b>This throey has to be correct!</b>
body:
Why??  Cuz the sea folk are aware of the Finns.  They would not have had access to either dorrway, nor the ToG.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I killed Asmodean.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-12-13 11:47:56
subject: <b>random thoughts, RE: Finns</b>
body:
We've seen huge sa'angreal (The Choedan Kal)  why not a ter'angreal as the ToG?  <br /><br />Has anyone seen the ToG in the real world, or only in TAR? <br /><br />Anyone have guesses on how Mat &amp; Co. will cheat the Finns?  I think they will use Aludra's 'firesticks'(matches) to claim they have no fire when asked.  Not sure about music or iron...<br /><br />I find it interesting that one of the Two Rivers family's last name is Torfinn...  (tower of the Finn)  Anyone else notice this?<br /><br />How do people add non Wotmania smiley codes(gifs)to their sigs?<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Asha'man Jasin <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br />Aspiring dentist and friend to <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /> Narl the Red-nosed Trolloc <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />And always a <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/seanchan.gif" border="0" /> Staunch Seanchan Supporter <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/seanchan.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-12-13 13:30:51
subject: <b>When did Mat remember dying?</b>
body:
The only specific quote that springs to mind is his memory of Mindean Ford (spelling?), where his last memory was trying to cross the river all shot with arrows.  While this is very like a George R.R. Martin betrayal &amp; death scene, it doesn't necessarily mean Mat's memory donor died there.  He could have blacked out or something, and then gone back to the capital of Manetheren to report, and stopped in the Tower of Ghenji on the way.  <br />Also references were made to his memory in tDR, after he had been healed.  The Amyrlin said it was an ancestral memory rearing up, so he was likely remembering stuff from his Old Blood.  It was another book yet before Rhuidean, so that memory doesn't count as evidence to compare aout the Finns.  <br />Also, if the spear was made from the Power, it would have been made in the Age of Legends, 2000 years before the Seanchan, and if it was a power-wrought weapon, it's indestructible and can't be carved or etched after it manufacture, anymore than it can be or needs to be sharpened.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


created: 2002-12-13 18:03:25
subject: <b>Mat's death memories and why his first flashback is before Rhuidean</b>
body:
Why does Mat have many memories of dying.  (I wish I remember where, but somewhere Mat thinks to himself that he has more memories of himself dying than he wished to count.)  The second problem is how did Mat get his knowledge of the Old Tongue and his memory in TV, both of which happened before he entered Rhuidean.)<br /><br />IMHO, an explanation of both (and possibly part of the reason for the destruction of the foxy gateway) is how you enter the land of the Finn.  Three things are important about the gateways.  When you enter you see a large flash of light.  Second, you can only enter once.  Third the snakes can predict with absolute certainty what will happen in your life (and only your life).  The snakes do so by staring a little past you.<br /><br />An explanation that fits all these facts is that when you pass through a gateway your whole thread (including past, present, and future passes through).  The snakes can somehow see the whole thread, past, present and future.  It are these experiences that they rummage through.  This explains the light as well, because you are seeing all the light that you have ever seen, or will see.  A person cannot enter the gateway a second time because two threads cannot occupy the same space.<br /><br />If you accept this argument, then it is easy to see how Mat may have gotten some of his memories before he entered Rhuidean.  The foxes had access to Mat's past, present and future memories.  Who knows, maybe they placed each memory at a certain time so that Mat will remember it when he needs it!  If Mat had asked the foxes might even be able to implant memories of Mat's future in his head.  (In case you think this is far-fetched consider that the rings of Rhuidean, performs almost the same function.)<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">RabidWombat<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> Let the Lord of Rambling Thoughts rule <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> Proud owner of a 2 star rating! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /> Someone stole all my cookies <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-12-14 03:26:34
subject: <b>This is a theory I can camp out on, nice thoughts by all!</b>
body:
snoopster<br /><br />Your point #1, is totally obvious. Thanks for bringing it up. I once got a deep cut on my face, that bled all over, and I passed out. if I never came to, what diff is death? Get me? Coo. Nice point. Near death feels like death.<br /><br />Your point #2, is exactly what I am saying with the flag idea. Maybe it's a bad way of explaining it. I get the concept from MMORPG's. That is Massively Multiplayer Online Role Playing Games (heh, why we call them MMO's for short). The flag, is like, ok, you entered the Finn land, now your flagged. Because of that flag on your soul, you will give up ever experience to them. Not just the ones you had, you're flagged, and they all go; Past Present and Future. In MMO's, maybe you have killed some monster, and because of it, you can enter the dungeon of shadow. It's very basic code, if you didn't kill that monster, you can't enter the dungeon, now that you did, and you&#8217;re &quot;flagged&quot; for entry. You have met the requirement. Comprende? Or is Windsor off on his own little world again (happens).<br /><br />wotenslaved  <br /><br />Quotes and proof are all meaning. Where do the Sea Folk say this, or know of the Finns. Back it up please, or you&#8217;re blowing hot air <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />. <br /><br />Ashaman Jasin <br /><br />Yes we have seen the ToG in the waking world; it is where we see it first. It is in the Eye of the World, right after the Shadar Logoth scene, when Mat and Rand are on the boat with Dolman. Rand sees it off in the distance, and Mat thinks there might be treasure in it. It's before Whitebridge, when they are on the river, if you want to look it up.<br /><br />I think that the matches will have something to do with it to, or at least, based on that, something to do with fireworks anyway.<br /><br />How do people add non Wotmania smiley codes(gifs)to their sigs? Well, buy a premium account, and help foot the bill. And you can upload your little 60x60 pixel gif too.<br /><br />Cannoli  <br /><br />Aye<br /><br />RabidWombat <br /><br />This is exactly what I have said before with the &quot;flagged&quot; idea. If you enter, your soul gets a flag, and then ALL your memories get passed up. They are &quot;flagged&quot; to do so. Never considered the &quot;pre fox&quot; stuff you mention though. That being, that his past was full of his future memories from other people, that he got them, in the past, because he was getting them in the future. That could poke a lot of holes in the Mat is Aemon thing. <br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Why on earth would anybody want to kidnap a groundhog?&quot;<br /><br />&quot;I can think of a few reasons, the pervert!&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2002-12-14 08:19:46
subject: <b>Mat remembers battle!</b>
body:
One thing about Mat remembering all these past lives.  it has been mentioned several times in the books that although he does remember other stuff such as dancing and singing most of Mats memories from the past are of battle.  Therefore they are not complete memories of other peoples entire lives, just the bits that would be useful to him as a soldier.  This means that he cannot be remembering entire past lives and so it is more than likely that these are not his memeories from past incarnations but bits of &quot;other mens memories&quot; that the Finn have put in his head.<br /><br />It is likely that he does also remember his past lives, as has been mentioned he started to have these memories (and start speaking the old tongue) long before he went to Rhuidian.  So the total answer is probably typically RJ and a bit complicated!  after all, he doesn't like straight solutions!!!


created: 2002-12-14 12:14:54
subject: <b>Good Theory, but...</b>
body:
Your theory is good, however I would point out one thing, the ter'angreal that Mat used in Rhuidean brought him to the Eelfinn, it was the ter'angreal in the Stone of Tear that brought Mat to the Aelfinn, who told him about the Daughter of the Nine Moons and his other fates. This is evident in WH Ch 31 when Mat finds out that Tuon is the Daughter of the Nine Moons, the chapter is called &quot;What the Aelfinn said.&quot; That aside, I agree that there must be ter'angreal somewhere west of the Dragonwall that can send someone to the 'Finn lands, possibly to both at once.<br />


created: 2002-12-15 10:35:32
subject: <b>Here's my take</b>
body:
My take is that the Finn have an arrangement or something with each other that allows the Foxes (Eelfinn?) access to memories collected by the Snakes (Aelfinn?).  IMO, the Snakes get glimpses of your thread in the Pattern regarding the questions you ask.  This makes sense with what was suggested above about a person bringing in their whole thread (past, present and future) with them through the ter'angreal.  So a person asks a question about their own life, the Snakes rummage around and get to look at (and record?) that part of your thread.<br /><br />So, some of the people who's memories Mat now has asked about battles they were to face, or even how they were going to die.  Thus, the Snakes look at that part of their thread and get to keep that memory, even though it's from the future.<br /><br />So I think they don't get to look at your whole thread, just what you ask about, just one specific part.  This would explain why Mat's memories are filled in with lots of little random memories.<br /><br />So I think the memories came from men who went through the ter'angreal that is now in the Stone.  It used to be in Mayene, and elsewhere before that.  So there may be other ter'angreal doorways out there, but there's now way to know at the moment.<br /><br />And yeah, where'd that comment about the Sea Folk knowing about the Finn come from?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Bob L. Sedai (a.k.a. Luge) <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /><br />Fighting off the Taint - <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tinfoilhat.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" />Thanks given to Burr, the ever-helpful theory critic<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />And to Light in the Night, fellow theorist extraordinaire<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Voted Best Screenname 1 (one) years in a row.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-12-15 11:25:29
subject: <b>It makes a lot of sense.</b>
body:
And may I congratulate you on a short, concise, interesting theory.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br />I'm here.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-12-16 02:25:43
subject: <b>Mat's memories a mix</b>
body:
Mat's memories are a mix between past lives/ancestors and memory holes filled by the finns from people who have entered the ToG. The old blood stuff, teh fluent old tongue before the finns, points to the fact that Mat was already more open than most to recieving memories from past lives/ancestors. I don't know which, past lives or ancestors, but I lean towards ancestors more. We see other people open to memories from ancestors, Egwene when she can almost understand Mat, and the fact that moraine even knows about such a phenomenon, proves its fairly common, relative. Mat is just stronger in the &quot;old blood&quot;, i.e. he's more open to receiving memories from ancestors, especially after the business with the dagger and cure. This does two things, proves that Mat comes from Manetheren nobility, which I like, and explains his Manetheren flashbacks. For his memories of hundreds of other lives, they are just what RJ says, memories from daring men who risked the dangers of entering the ToG.<br />  in short, Mat has memories from his ancestors and from the Finns. There need not be crazy time explainations to explain Mats first flashback, and the death at the river was a Manetheran General dieing, so that could be an ancestral memory. Though I do like the flag bit.<br /><br />As long as I'm giving my two cents I would not like it at al if Mat and co. get lost in the woods, discover a strange trail and happen upon another twisted doorway. I think there were only two doorways, one for each finn, and all the daring men were going through the Tower.<br /><br />BTW I don't by that walk around the tower three times counter clockwise bit. Just sounds so corny, like tap the ruby slippers together three times and say there's no place like home. Maybe I'm wrong, I understand the mythological logic that went into that theory, but man. I just don't dig it.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Junius Maltby Lives!</font><p></p>


created: 2002-12-16 12:46:26
subject: <b>Mat, Thom and the ToG</b>
body:
Since Mat took in Oliver, he has been playing alot of the snakes and foxes games with him.  I seem to remember him stating after loosing yet again that the only way to beat the game would be to cheat.  This sounds like what Birgitte says when she is talking about the snake and foxes.  Maybe Mat figures out a way to cheat and with Thom's help, they go in and rescue Moiriane.  I don't know what reason they would have to think they could rescue her, but we all are pretty sure these two will be responsible.  Nice comment on the matches not being fire.  Maybe this is how Mat cheats, by lying, to get an advantage over the foxes.  As for another doorway, who knows, but the ToG is a way in, per Birgitte, and Slayer uses it often.  Maybe Perrin will be needed to get them in, and lead them thru the maze to get them to where they need to go.  Then again, maybe not.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">lowmanbuys<br />And I'm tired of buying! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angry.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />What would men be without women?<br />Scarce sir, mighty scarce. -Mark Twain</font><p></p>


created: 2002-12-16 17:32:09
subject: <b>Nice comments HoratioBoobles</b>
body:
But I do feel pretty strong about the walk around 3 times to get in bit. <br /><br />Chapter 28 of The Shadow Rising<br /><br /><i>Two hundred feet the tower rose, and forty thick, gleaming like burnished steel. It might as well have been a solid column of metal. Perrin walked around it twice without seeing any opening, not so much as a crack, not even a mark on that smooth, sheer wall. The smell hung here, though, that cold, inhuman stink. The trail ended here. The man-if man he was-had gone inside somehow. He only had to find the way to follow. <br />Stop! It was a raw flow of emotion that Perrin&#8217;s mind put a word to. Stop!</i><br /><br />Actually from the passage, it's hard to say if it's Bergitte or Hopper who tells Perrin to stop, but the &quot;walked around it twice without seeing an opening&quot; bit is significant I think. Wouldn't most people circle the thing a few times looking for an opening?<br /><br />Also, for those that haven't you should read the theory about the Finn's and how they are like fairys.<br /><br />That can be found here: http://35.10.40.62/wotmania/theorypostdbtheory.asp?ID=713&amp;Category=MythRel<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Why on earth would anybody want to kidnap a groundhog?&quot;<br /><br />&quot;I can think of a few reasons, the pervert!&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2002-12-17 21:03:28
subject: <b>You know, something came to me the other day</b>
body:
Of course Mat could have the memories of these other men dying (even if they die after they visit the Aelfinn). It is what the snakes do, they savor a persons memories, and at least part of that has to include that persons future memories, or how else do they foretell it? They answer 3 questions, dealing with future events in the person&#8217;s life they are reading. Wouldn't &quot;how am I going to die?&quot; be an often-asked question, as it is one we all often wonder about?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Why on earth would anybody want to kidnap a groundhog?&quot;<br /><br />&quot;I can think of a few reasons, the pervert!&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2002-12-18 06:21:04
subject: <b>Can't oneself change his own future?</b>
body:
I am reading about taking whole memories from someone, including future memories, but came to think with me...<br />What memories have taken the finns from Mat? The one with him going to Rhuidean? or the one not going and dying? It was Mat's election to go, and I can't believe the finns can read one's mind from the moment they see you to the moment you die. I think one character has (perhaps a little being taveren) a margin of election, and how can they know what election will you take in a future? How can they know ALL the future?... &quot;Go to Rhuidean or die&quot; lefts Mat an election to take<br /><br />Spanish Fan<br />'The translations to spanish are bad, my english is worse'


created: 2002-12-18 14:56:49
subject: <b>Mat's Ravens</b>
body:
I didnt get all the way through the board before posting but i didnt see anywhere where anyone said that mat's sword/staff thingie was FROM seanchan, they just stated that the ravens marked on it were going to be part of mats connection to the seanchan.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Ipkin Styld<br />Channeling Borderlander<br />Slayer of renegade Whitecloaks<br />Kicker of major Trolloc Rear-end</font><p></p>


created: 2002-12-18 18:21:49
subject: <b>Well spanish_fan</b>
body:
I don't think they know wall the future, just the future of the people that come to visit them. As for Mat electing to go, well I think they could see that if he didn't go, he would die, they say as much, so of course telling him meant he would go. It was a sure thing. Just by telling him that he had to go, they sealed his fate.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Why on earth would anybody want to kidnap a groundhog?&quot;<br /><br />&quot;I can think of a few reasons, the pervert!&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2002-12-18 21:50:39
subject: <b>I don't know...</b>
body:
I think by saying IF, they do imply that he has choice, so they are more like the Wise One test, where they see multiple futures depending on your choices.


created: 2002-12-19 02:12:14
subject: <b>Well, I read the bit with Mat with the snakes:</b>
body:
The Shadow Rising, Ch 15<br /><br /><i>&#8220;If you do not go to Rhuidean,&#8221; the woman on the right said, &#8220;you will die.&#8221;<br /><br />&#8220;Burn your soul for a craven heart,&#8221; Mat growled, &#8220;I will that! Why will I die if I do not go to Rhuidean? I very likely will die if I try. It makes no - &#8221;<br /><br />The man cut him off and spoke hurriedly. &#8220;You will have sidestepped the thread of fate, left your fate to drift on the winds of time, and you will be killed by those who do not want that fate fulfilled. Now, go. You must go! Quickly!&#8221;</i><br /><br />The whole part about <b>&quot;you will have sidestepped the thread of fate&#8221;</b>, is significant I think. He was not given a choice, they were just explaining to him why he would die if he didn't go. He would not meet his fate. I don't know if that is even possible. Why else would it be called fate?<br /><br />No, my opinion still stands. He didn't really have a choice, by telling him, they sealed his fate, and his visit, and it's consequences, were all part of Mat's fate, and it WAS going to happen. It does tell us though; that the snakes can read the other threads a life might go down. The portal stone worlds are worlds that might have been, or are they worlds that are, but on a different dimension? When the DO asks Demondread &quot;how fares this world&quot;, clearly he plays a part in the other &quot;worlds&quot; too, as he speaks as if the world Demondread resides in is not the only one. I think this all goes back to that quantum physics stuff that some who know of such things have suggested. That is, that every possibility of you choices exists, and all possible outcomes exists in other dimesnions. I don&#8217;t claim to understand this stuff at all, as I know nothing of Quantum Physics, but I would like to more. Now in WoT, the least likely outcomes, are dimmer, as they exist in these other dimensions, it is why the world that Rand and Loial and Hurin entered in tGH didn't seem quite that real (tunnel vision world). There, the shadow had won against Hawkwing, and it just wasn't a strong possibility. We also know that the beasts the Seanchan use are taken from these worlds, and from the Big White Book, that some of them die, because they were not made for the reality they are brought into. I dunno really, it is theory beyond me, but right up the ally of a physics guy I suppose (quantum physics). <br /><br />But, the bit about fate, Mat&#8217;s fate, and what the snakes can see, and Mat&#8217;s free will, I think is explained by the snakes, when they tell him that to not go to Rhuidean, would be sidestepping his fate. <br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Why on earth would anybody want to kidnap a groundhog?&quot;<br /><br />&quot;I can think of a few reasons, the pervert!&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2002-12-19 02:32:32
subject: <b>finns more like min..</b>
body:
Well i think it's more like Min where what she sees will happen if or if she doesn't tell them..some times her saying something leads to the fate other times it comes by it self *she doesn't tell them* think of it this from the moment it happened *the person telling or not telling * ALREADY happened..  when u look at the future the events leading upto it already took place upto that monent .... <br /><br />i'll try to explain it ..Finn tells jack he'll die by the sword ..the vision Finn sees is based in the future when Jack dies..that means it's already accepted that Finn told him.. so it goes ..   <br />finn meet Jack ..Finn tells jack **Time between foretelling and time of vision**  jack dies Vision here<br /><br />In a foretelling look at it backwards..<br /><br />Vision first and piece back to when the vision is told.. <br /><br />thus the Do i tell them or not debate in the Fortuneteller's head is not important..as the vision they saw already KNOWS if they told or didn't ..**yes it's a paradox**


created: 2002-12-23 20:40:01
subject: <b>Couple of points</b>
body:
First of, why do the ravens on mats weapon have to be linked to seanchen? Aren't ravens also linked to the shadow? And the shaft of the thing (whats it called again?) is also black, a favourite colour of darkfriends. A forsaken or other dark channeler during the age of legends could have made it for someone, just like the aes sedai made them for their own use etc.<br /><br />Also mat speaks some old tongue sentences and doesn't even recall saying anything afterwards, during the first book. This according to moiraine is rare but not unheard of. I don't remember her ever saying that people who did this ever understood the old tongue when it was spoken to them as mat did during his trip to the aelfinn in tear. Remember rand and moiraine both got translators for them to communicate, where as mat didn't even notice until rand told him of his. Then he freaked out.<br /><br />One more thing: how would mats medallion react to entering a creation of the power like the ToG? Hell it could explode for all we know, or not even let him in. Then again it might be the thing he needs to cheat ie a weapon NOT of steel that hurts them like the gholam. And i very much doubt mat would face the finns again without his amulet.


created: 2002-12-30 22:35:27
subject: <b>yes-sir-eeee-bob</b>
body:
What About the Portal Stones ?????????<br />Won't one of the little symbol thingeys take them there???<br />or to the Eelfinn<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br />


created: 2002-12-30 22:57:29
subject: <b>A solution</b>
body:
Wasn't there a door way in Tear's cache of power items?  If I am remembering right then it is very possible that something from the two rivers area could end up in tear.


created: 2003-01-07 19:52:53
subject: <b>Not meant to be in that reality?</b>
body:
Huh?<br /><br />&quot;We also know that the beasts the Seanchan use are taken from these worlds, and from the Big White Book, that some of them die, because they were not made for the reality they are brought into. &quot;<br /><br />I don't remember reading that in the BWB.  Got a page and paragraph number?<br /><br />To be honest, I don't have serious doubts about this being truth (I'm not as well schooled in this as most on this site), but I never remember seeing that the creatures came exclusively from the Worlds of If.<br /><br />Subbie<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">No matter how you shake and dance...<br /><br />When you die you're food for worms and ants!</font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-09 21:01:17
subject: <b>What if it is?</b>
body:
Ok, while i do agree with you concerning the ter'angreal on the west side of the Dragonwall, isn't it possible that the Tower is that ter'angreal.  I mean, Perrin was chasing Slayer through Manetheren when he came upon the Tower, and only men of daring would go in that way, considering it is almost impossible to return from.  Thats all.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Life is not tried it is merely survived if  you're standing outside the fire.&quot;<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> Kwestfall06 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-21 02:07:29
subject: <b>maybe the doorway wasn't always where it is now.</b>
body:
I would have thought that the doorway was just moved from place to place, but then i remembered that the doorway was given to the Aiel to keep in the AoL to safegaurd. But maybe they carried it with them before they all ended up in the desert.  This would explain why only certain countries have people who went into the doorway. who knows<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> Ghost rules.</font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-08 05:59:00
subject: <b>The twisted doorways...</b>
body:
could be access keys to the Tower of Ghenjei, just like the figures of a man and a woman are access keys to the Choedan Kal... And remember that those who built Rhuidean had brought with them ter'angreal where they came from


created: 2004-04-15 07:46:39
subject: <b>Nice theory but there is one large hole.....</b>
body:
i dunno if someone pointed this out before me... i'm in a bit of a hurry and do'nt wanna read the almost 50 comments before me... yeah i know... i'm lazy <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~<br /><br /><b>passage from book 4 chapter 26...</b><br /><br />&#8220;We must, Oselle. They are young and inexperienced, but barely touched by the taint, and . . . . And we have no choice.&#8221;<br /><br />&#8220;Then we will do what we must. The sword must wait. Someshta, we have a task for the last of the Nym, if you will do it. We have asked too much of you; now we must ask more.&#8221;<br /><br />Jonai bowed his way out formally as the Nym rose, his head brushing the ceiling. Already immersed in their plans, they were not looking at him, but he did them this last honor anyway.  He did not think he would ever see them again.<br /><br />He ran from the Hall of the Servants, all the way out of the city to where the great gathering waited. Thousands of wagons in ten lines stretching nearly two leagues, wagons loaded with food and water barrels, wagons loaded with the crated things the Aes Sedai had given into Aiel charge, angreal and sa&#8217;angreal and ter&#8217;angreal, all the things that had to be kept from the hands of men going mad while they wielded the One Power.<br /><br />~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~<br /><br />The things in Rhuidean were things that were given to the Aiel to kkep safe during the breaking... including the Avendesora...<br /><br />the major flaw i saw with this is that alot of the memories Mat got from the Finns were from men of the Age of Legends... and in the AOL, the Doorway was <i>not</i>  in the Aiel Waste... the city of Rhuidean didn't even exist then... so it is not nessecary for there to have been more than one doorway or other way into Finnland.... this doorway would have been accessible out of Rhuidean in the AOL...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Bonded to <font color="indigo">Hunter_of_trollocs1204</font> and <font color="indigo">Malkier Fighter</font>, sword sister to <font color="indigo">el_nynaeve mandragoran</font><br /><br /><br />&quot;You can't spell <font color="red"><i>Slaughter</i></font> without <font color="red"><i>Laughter</i></font>!<br />~ Natch Evil</font><p></p>


created: 2002-12-11 15:14:25
subject: <b>Tesen has always been somewhat suspicious to me</b>
body:
I have wondered if he could be either Demandred or Padan Fain, simply because of Gawyn's extreme change.  I would hope that RJ would give more information to go on if it was either of them, though.  I don't know if I have enough energy to completly check your timeline.  I was rather impressed with the effort you put into it if nothing else.<br /><br />I give is a thumbs up, although I still have doubts about your conclusion.  For one it is a large leap.  Second timeline problems are very tricky for authors to keep fully straight so I wouldn't be suprised if it was a small error. <br /><br />Good Job!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">RabidWombat<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> Let the Lord of Rambling Thoughts rule <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> Proud owner of a 2 star rating! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /> Someone stole all my cookies <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-12-11 15:43:23
subject: <b>well i have to agree.</b>
body:
im not complity sure of it beeing Demandred but since i come up with no one better i have to agree with you.<br /><br />and i could not be Padan Fain he have already gived away all the seeds he took from shadar logoth to the Elaida and some more with i cant remember.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="teal">Vantan hr&#237;veress&#235; helka</font><br /><br /><font color="white">spacespacespace...</font> <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-12-11 17:25:28
subject: <b>Ingenious</b>
body:
I've always put that as a big old check in the minus of Gawyn, the fact that he is letting a comment from a man he obviously had no great reason to put implicit trust in rule his thinking on a particular topic, especially going against the impression he had received in person and what his girlfriend insisted.  I haven't ever really felt much sympathy for him since, and I was happy about him &amp; Egwene, as I wouldn't wish her on any halfway decent character.  If Gawyn was under a compulsion to believe Tesen, that might explain alot.  Look at his (and Elayne's)first meeting with Rand.  It just smacks of a ta'veren dominated event, like the meeting with the Sea Folk.  Gawyn and Elayne's casual conversation, held in the face of a complete stranger revealed all the pertinent details about that family in a nutshell, and Elaida and Morgase gave very personal lectures to the kids in front of a complete stranger and a lot of guards.  Elayne later admits she fell in love with Rand on meeting him, and considering they start making out the very next time they are face to face (and both conscious), it had a profound impact.  Gawyn's babbling suprised Elayne, so it was obviously out of character for him.  If Rand made such a strong ta'veren impression on Gawyn, it seems very odd that he should go right to incontrovertible, raw hatred based on the words of a self-contradicting peddler.  He didn't seem affected at all by Rand's treatment when captive, the way almost all the good guys would be.  Even as furious as Rand was at Rahvin for killing Morgase &amp; Aviendha &amp; Mat, I find it hard to believe he would have condoned torturing him.  He merely tried (and succeeded) at destroying the man as thoroughly as possible.  Elayne, raised the bt same people as Gawyn, and trained to a certain necessary ruthlessness (witness her casual discussion of murder in Tear, where she nearly matched Moiraine) was uncertain she could bring herself to torture Black Ajah for necessary information.<br />As soon as I read the title of the theory, I thought &quot;Duh!&quot;  The excellent timing evidence given only cemented the idea.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


created: 2002-12-11 17:31:38
subject: <b>He seems kinda subserviant, indimidated for Demmy</b>
body:
I'm not saying he's not, but I'm just not sure how good of an actor Demmy was. Demmy is quite arrogant and might be reluctant to let anyone grab his collar. Just a thought on that anyway. It does help to infuriate Gawyn, but I've never heard Demmy mention him before, and didn't realize that was one of his goals.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Pronounced: &quot;Rand was here&quot;<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shakefist.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-12-11 18:03:56
subject: <b>Great work LitN!</b>
body:
I think this fits perfectly with Demondread and even his visits to SG. At the beginning, he is told to LtLoCR, and then later, asks if he did not do well. It seems he has accomplished just that. I am reminded of Gawain&#8217;s last words to Rand at Dumai's Wells, something like &quot;I will see you dead Althor&quot;. Rand could have used both of Elayne's brothers, as generals or whatever, but now, they are both off doing their own thing, and Gawain, is in about as much Chaos as one can get.<br /><br />Thumbs way up!<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Why on earth would anybody want to kidnap a groundhog?&quot;<br /><br />&quot;I can think of a few reasons, the pervert!&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2002-12-11 23:51:18
subject: <b>Okay, not time here for a devoted comment(have to hurry for school)</b>
body:
But wouldn't let say Sammael be a better choice due to the fact that he has had encounters with Sevanna and the shaido. He would better know the position of Gawyn and what exactly to say to him.<br />Just a thought. No evidence so far.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">The most experienced and dangerous hitman of wotmania's Mafia<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bobbafett.gif" border="0" /><br />When it's us vs. them<br />You can always count on me!<br />THE HEELFLIP MASTER<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-12-12 00:02:09
subject: <b>Demandred?</b>
body:
I do agree that this peddler was excedingly dodgey, both in what he so casually revealed and what he was doing there in the first place. I like the whole compulsion bit, and the idea that he was actually one of the Forsaken. It makes alot of sense, especially with the whole let the lord of chaos rule thing. However, I'm not convinced that he necessarily had to be Demandred. The way I see it, any of the Forsaken still kicking around could have done it, even the women. In fact without going over the time lines in detail as you have, I would like to suggest Graendael as my most likely contender. She has been shown to be a master at manipulating people, especially by playing with their minds, and is also quite free with compulsion. Don't know how much power would be needed for such compulsion or if it would have been detected by the sisters, but if I remember correctly the younglings were off scouting aways so it may have been safe.<br /><br />Shooganooga<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;I can express more emotion than laughter, anger and let's . . .&quot;<br /><br />Shooganooga<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-12-12 00:52:19
subject: <b>Thanks for the comments</b>
body:
Actually, I tossed around the idea for awhile before pointing to Demandred. When the Forsaken met later, Graendal said that Sammael wasn't going to be there because he was &quot;marshalling his forces.&quot; So I figured he was busy preparing his defense of Illian. Plus Demmy had just met with the DO in the same prologue and given instructions to stir up chaos. And there were 17 days where he wasn't around afterwards. I wonder what else he might have been up to? <br /><br /> As for it being one of the female Forsaken, I discounted them because Gawyn grabbed the lapels of the peddler, must have been face-to-face with him in fact. And the MOM doesn't hold up under that type of close scrutiny. Demmy OTOH wouldn't even need to disguise himself.<br /><br /> A little more Light in the Night!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2002-12-12 01:16:08
subject: <b>Well I suppose that we can exclude Sammael then</b>
body:
However, as I do not have my books here now...have we received an outer appearance description of this peddler<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">The most experienced and dangerous hitman of wotmania's Mafia<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bobbafett.gif" border="0" /><br />When it's us vs. them<br />You can always count on me!<br />THE HEELFLIP MASTER<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-12-12 07:32:39
subject: <b>If it was Sammael..</b>
body:
..then I think it doubtful that Gawyn wouldn't have noticed or mentioned his scar. And of course, if he was using the mask of mirrors, it would have broken when being grabbed.<br /><br />I'm impressed by the theory and it seems more than likely that Mil Tesen is not what he seems. I'm not totally convinced he's Demandred, but I can think of no one more likely.<br /><br />One point though, the Aes Sedai from the WT might have taken so logn getting there simply due to a reluctance to face the Dragon Reborn. As in, they know they have to go, but they're not looking forward to it and would take any opportunity to delay the arrival.<br /><br />Not that I took much notice of the timeline, I think the best parts of the theory are in the other parts and I would have given it the thumbs up without knowing the dates.


created: 2002-12-12 08:41:05
subject: <b>1 More clue</b>
body:
WELL since EVERYONE over looked it i'll state it..it lept out first time reading in this theoty<br />*guess since i knew to look for something*<br /><br />&#8220;Tesen rolled his eyes looking for help, but he spoke, and quickly. &#8216;That's what they say, my Lord. Old Mil don't know, but he thinks it so. Everybody says it, my Lord. Everybody says this Dragon did it. My Lord? Old Mil's neck, my Lord! My Lord!&#8217;<br /><br />   **Gawyn jerked his hands away as though burned** . He felt on fire inside. It had been another neck he wanted in his hands. &#8216;The Daughter-Heir.&#8217; His voice sounded far off. &#8216;Is there any word of the Daughter-Heir, Elayne?&#8217;<br /><br /><br />ok he was choking Mil Tesen one sec while he was enraged..next thing his hands seemed on fire..<br /><br />Lets see the Forsaken is getting choked ..so he uses the OP to get Gawyn *who's enraged* to stop..the hands on fire is the important thing <br /><br />Now the on fire inside thing can just be rage but why would his hand's be onfire? so it seems to me it was a weave <br /><br /><br />


created: 2002-12-12 10:53:40
subject: <b>That's pretty...</b>
body:
...flimsy damon, it's a common phrase afterall to jerk back as if burned when in this sort of situation.<br /><br />Besdies I don't think Demandred would be foolish enough to risk channeling in that way. As subtle as he could be, if Gawyn felt his hand physically heat up to the point where it felt burned, he'd be suspicious. That'd be such a risk and it's not like Demandred (if it was him) was in that much trouble, he could still talk. If Gawyn hadn't let him go and proceeded to try to choke him, perhaps then Demandred could risk something like that.


created: 2002-12-12 17:35:27
subject: <b>Demandred in Caemlyn</b>
body:
We know that Demmy has some interest in Caemlyn and Elayne so this fits perfectly.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I killed Asmodean.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-12-13 12:16:48
subject: <b>Nice work, and don't forget...</b>
body:
... that if it was Demmy, he was probably disguised using the OP. Which means that he should have been very nervous that Gawyn would be touching his face (and thereby revealing him).<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>F&#246;r &#246;vrigt anser jag att Mordor b&#246;r f&#246;rst&#246;ras.</i></font><p></p>


created: 2002-12-14 06:59:19
subject: <b>freaky</b>
body:
I have to say, I have read all the books at least twice, and it happened that on this very day, I read this section, where Gawyn meets the peddlar.<br /><br />I was struck by the significance of the meeting.  The other thing that struck me which occurs in the very next section, is the shaido hussy Sevanna remembering the little cube which she received from a &quot;strange wetlander man&quot; in who found her in the mountains.<br /><br />There is nothing to say that Mil Tesen HAS to be Demandred, but I do believe he is more than just a peddlar, and it is possible that he is a Forsaken.  If not a Forsaken, a Darkfriend working under orders from one of them.<br /><br />


created: 2002-12-14 20:44:20
subject: <b>He certainly wasn't what he seemed</b>
body:
Dunno about him being Demandred though. Certainly a Darkfriend<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-12-15 08:30:10
subject: <b>Three in a Boat</b>
body:
Does the MOM break when someone is grabbed? I understand why people, including myself, think so, since you only weave the Power around yourself. And, obviously, you can't simulate a face or something with the Power that you could touch.<br /><br />But what about Lanfear disguising herself as Keille, or Elayen and company in Ebou Dar. Lanfear certainly added to herself with her disguise, unlike Elayne who probably just altered her appearance.<br /><br />But surely Lanfear would have worried about her mask being broken during the month or so she spent in the wagons.<br /><br />So, either no one touched her the whole time, or the MOM can still hold when being touched, or she used something else. I don't know.<br /><br />About the theory, Tesen was much more likely to be Demandred than Sammael (if Tesen was a Forsaken) even if the MOM can hold when touched. As the author pointed out, Dem has more reason to do this and be there than Sammael would.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="white">Do NOT highlight this space...</font><b><font color="#FF99FF"><i>P</i></font><font color="#006699"> Floyd</font></b><font color="white">...or you'll be in trouble!</font><br /><br /><font color="white">............</font><i>'You're a pacifist with a gun, Eileen.'</i> - Sam Roberts</font><p></p>


created: 2002-12-15 09:52:53
subject: <b>Alviarin</b>
body:
breaks Mesanna's MOM when kissing the rim of her skirt, she sees that it is bronze edged.<br /><br />No doubt Lanfear did worry about being touched, but she made herself not only extremely fat, but also she gave off the impression of being a strong, intimidating woman. It is unlikely anyone would touch her intnetionally as long as she avoided doing things she shouldn't. Then again perhaps someone did touch her and she used compulsion on them (or simply desposed of them).


created: 2002-12-15 11:19:24
subject: <b>Um. I still think he might have been Demmy's pawn.</b>
body:
He wouldn't have come himself. What, the great demandred dress as a peddlar? nah.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br />I'm here.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-12-16 07:34:58
subject: <b>HMM..</b>
body:
didn't it say somewhere that if the MOM was fine enough it could bee toutched? I could remember this wrong so... I agree that it was demandred. wouldn't it bee nice if he didn't use the MOM but was there as he is... then gawyn could regognice him!!! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-12-16 21:55:54
subject: <b>RE: Mil Tesen was Demandred</b>
body:
This isn't something i really thought of but it ties in with something else i puzzled out.<br /><br />Namely that one of the forsaken leaked the information about Morgase being dead.  I had always wondered how Mat got this information before Moraine did.  That in itself is strange, but even weirder is how that information got to Mat in Cairhinien yet Rand is almost universally blamed for Morgases death.  Granted this could have just have been taveren but i don't think so. The simple answer is that some darkfriends were told to tell Mat that Morgase was dead.  <br /><br />Some of the Forsaken probably knew about Elayne and Rands relationship from darkfriends from the stone.<br /><br />Leaking this information led Rand into direct conflict with Rahvin and also caused him to be blamed for Morgases death.  Sounds like something demadred would do to me.  Trying to turn the woman who loves him against rand.<br /><br />


created: 2002-12-17 13:44:15
subject: <b>Sounds good to me</b>
body:
As someone else mentioned it gives something that Demandred did onscreen to be claiming to have done well at the end of LoC, since he's not Taim.  Also by getting Gawyn to want Rand dead he has someone else hunting Rand that he is not responsible for and Demandred definately wants Rand dead.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sir Jim<br />Lord of Minutia&#8482;<br />King of WoT MB Posts&#8482;<br /><br />Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-12-17 15:33:24
subject: <b>*Strides in to end the discussion*</b>
body:
Alright here it is folks.<br />A) We have no idea if the MOM is the only disguising weave. There can be another one for minute details.<br />B) Hands jerking away can go either way, thereby it is a nullified detail for this argument.<br />C) Who says it can't be a women? Compulsion my friends, compulsion. Thereby this brings any of the women in, though Graendal in the forefront.<br /><br />Graendal Possibilities.<br />A) Compulsion allows her to give details without fear of them spreading beyond her control or anything else.<br />B) Graendal and Sammael are a team. Whilest Sammy is busy who says our buddy Graendal can't be finishing up working on the Aiel and AS?<br />C) Finally, we all know Graendal has a thing for handsome, noble men. Who knows if she doesn't have some grand plan for Gawyn? Its always a possibility.<br /><br />And with that i bid you ado.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sargon of Akkad<br />Owner of the <font color="silver">Silver Couch</font><br />The Unknown Elder<br /><i><font color="crimson">I feel like grandpa on the porch with his stick grumbling about whipper-snappers      *giggles*</font></i>~Jenn<br /><font color="green">Doesn't Gary just love us all? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /></font>~Spettio<br /><font color="gray">The Sultan of Swing&quot;</font></font><p></p>


created: 2002-12-18 12:55:01
subject: <b>Forsaken disguises</b>
body:
<b>A) We have no idea if the MOM is the only disguising weave. There can be another one for minute details.</b><br /><br />If this was true, then I imagine that Mesaana would have used such a better form of disguise when meeting with Alviarin, which she obviously doesn't.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Olu Thales<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-12-18 19:30:53
subject: <b>Illusion</b>
body:
I have noticed a few people saying that it might have been a woman or there is something else you can use for disguising yourself with the Power. Here is a POV from Demmy after Graendal shows him her Domani guise: <br /><br /> &quot;One touch would prove the angular contours of that face were not hers - only the most subtle use of Illusion could pass that test - but Graendal seemed wedded to flamboyance.&quot; LoC, Threads Woven of Shadow, HB p.132.<br /> One of the girls, either Elayne or Nynaeve says much the same thing in Ebou Dar when they are waiting for Birgitte to get back from her talk with Mat in ACoS, Swovan Night, HB, p.367.<br /><br /> Simply stated, the less you change what is already there, the better the illusion holds up under close scrutiny.<br /><br /> A little more Light in the Night.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2002-12-22 10:52:03
subject: <b>no no no!</b>
body:
There's no way Demmy would have let himself be manhandled. Can't you see Demmy hauling off and thumping Gawyn?<br /><br />This applies to all of the Forsaken. Why would any of them let themselves be pushed around by Gawyn when a low level Darkfriend could soak it up for them? <br /><br />My guess is, the peddler was just another Darkfriend. <br /><br />Alaerien<br />Wild Child<br /><br />


created: 2002-12-31 13:20:09
subject: <b>Jesus, why can't he just be a friggin' peddler?!?!??</b>
body:
Are we this hard up for content, that some dude we see once is worthy of a theory, and it gets posted? <br /><br />It was well written, yes, but I find the subject and content lacking.<br /><br />And 25 people were each developing their own theory on this guy, apparently.<br /><br />Does it get this bad during every wait for a new book?<br /><br />(BTW, Light, this is not directed specifically at you; It's a culmination of the frustration I've felt for months, each time I look at the content of the message board, and you and Mil Tesen were in the wrong place at the wrong time. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> )<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;You seem a decent fellow... I'd hate to kill you.&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-01 00:07:42
subject: <b>To Oldmanfish</b>
body:
No offense taken, I'm pretty thick-skinned. This originated as a blackbord post I made about 3 or 4 months ago. You do have to admit, I think, that the peddler seemed out of place. I too, was getting bored with the lack of good stuff on the MB, so I thought I would run this one up the flagpole. Let people shoot it or salute it. <br /><br /> I'm currently working on another with quite a bit more to it, hopefully, while I await CoT.<br /><br /> A little more Light in the Night!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-20 16:15:49
subject: <b>it's obvious!</b>
body:
THE MULE IS BELA!  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&lt;rant&gt; Canadian and proud of it! &lt;/rant&gt;</font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-11 07:36:59
subject: <b>A good theory but...</b>
body:
This is without a doubt the only good theory I've encountered for Demmy other than Taim.<br /><br />Some supporting comments on here suggest an assumption that Taimandred is dead.  &quot;Since he isn't Taim...&quot;  &quot;Since there's no one else...&quot;  I think that's premature.<br /><br />I interpret &quot;Let the Lord of Chaos Rule&quot; differently than those who mention it here.  I think it means to let Rand do what he's doing and then turn it to advantage.  (Let him build the most powerful army in the world and then put you in charge of it.)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />Humility tutor to Aes Sedai <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> Sparing partner of Lanagorn <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> Believer in Taimandred the theory <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angry.gif" border="0" /> Sworn enemy of Taimandred the man <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angry.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/berelain.gif" border="0" /> Hopelessly in lust with Berelain <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/berelain.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-11 11:35:19
subject: <b>Re: A good theory but...</b>
body:
I will agree with you on that point. Taim/Demmy is using the Black Tower for recruiting male channelers for the DO.<br /><br /> As to them being the same person, I once thought they were. In fact, I am one of those that think RJ changed his mind about it. <br /><br /> Now, supposedly, RJ has said at a book signing, that we have not seen Demandred as anyone but Demandred. With as much controversy as there has been on this issue, I cannot understand why he would do that. It has been one of the things that has encouraged much debate here and elsewhere. Why would he reduce one of the biggest mysteries of the series to an answer at a book signing when he could keep his true identity hidden until the last book?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2004-07-02 16:44:38
subject: <b>nice ....</b>
body:
nice theory i can say ... well defended but ... small posibility to ... be real ... some coincidence i think


created: 2005-06-13 10:35:01
subject: <b>Overlooked???</b>
body:
I agree about Dem not letting anyone choke him, or grab him.  I certainly don't think he would whine and beg to a none channeling nobody...  But i bet he would command a poor putz of a Darkfriend to do it....  they get put in harms way and end up whining while doing it all the time....<br /><br />Call the peddler a dark friend commanded by who ever and I like it...  <br />A powerful forsaken doing this low level chaos seeding and getting roughed up and yelled at for it???  no<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">BORDERLANDER<br /><br />TAIM WAS NEVER DEMANDRED<br />&quot;All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident.&quot; <br />- Arthur Schopenhauer <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-12-25 11:53:10
subject: <b>Hmmmmmm</b>
body:
I always assumed that the True Power was the single undivided energy source that Lanfear was trying to reach in the AOL.  Unfortuneatly this power is connected to the Dark One and we know the rest of the story.  Collapse, war of power, the hurting and the biting etc etc.  Anyway, the way I read it, the True Power is derived from the DO and therefore can only be channelled by those in his favour.  i.e. the DO grants the ability to touch the source.  <br /><br /><br />Anyway, we know Ishy channelled the True Power.  It has been remarked, I beleive in that same chapter in WH among others.  People have even theorized that Ishy's fire eyes are an advanced from of the saa.  We have been lead to beleive that the True Power is more powerful then the One Power, which is why Isy uses it almost exclusively.  In fact it is the same usage by Morridin that is one of the major arrows pointing to him being Ishy.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I killed Asmodean.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-12-25 12:12:02
subject: <b>Hey, you got your theory posted on Christmas</b>
body:
What a present! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />The cords connected to the make Forsaken were their protection from the Taint. Asmodean said this to Lanfear in Rhuidean after Rand captured him. The female Forsaken didn't have the cords because they didn't need the protection, thus the DO didn't trust them as much as he did the make FS. Am I right on this??<br /><br />I agree with you. It would make sense that Moridin would channel the TP exclusively after being reborn since he would be susceptible to the taint. Good theory.<br /><br />To wotenslaved:<br /><br /><i>We have been lead to beleive that the True Power is more powerful then the One Power.</i><br /><br />Where did you get this from? I can't recall hearing this or &quot;being led to believe this&quot;. Rand killed Ishy in the Stone, and Ishy was using the TP against him here. Obviously, Rand was significantly weaker then than he is now. This indicates, to me at least, that the TP is neither stronger nor weaker than the OP, just different. Just like the OP, I think it depends on the strength of the wielder.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="white">Do NOT highlight this space...</font><b><font color="#FF99FF"><i>P</i></font><font color="#006699"> Floyd</font></b><font color="white">...or you'll be in trouble!</font><br /><br /><font color="white">............</font><i>'You're a pacifist with a gun, Eileen.'</i> - Sam Roberts</font><p></p>


created: 2002-12-25 12:56:13
subject: <b>Corrections</b>
body:
1) Cocolino states that a large number of saa aren't present in Moridin's eyes until WH. However, during his &quot;watcher&quot; POV scene in aCoS, <i>Patterns within Patterns</i> (his first definite appearance btw), <i>the black flecks filled his eyes, a horizontal blizzard.</i><br /><br />2) RJ was asked the following question about the TP:<br /><br /><i>Can you clarify who can tell when one is using the True Power?<br /><br />No one can tell if you're using the True Power, except the Dark One, of course</i><br /><br />Had the black cords been made of the TP, then Rand wouldn't have been able to see or sense them, no matter what.<br /><br />I personally believe that Ishamael was channelling the TP exclusively throughout the Third Age, due to it's extremely addictive nature (as Moghedien mentions), if nothing else. Once reborn, Moridin simply continued the habit. After all, since he's willing to accept the consequences of using it, why not use it exclusively instead of detectable <i>saidin</i>?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Olu Thales<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-12-25 13:23:09
subject: <b>Addendum to <i>Corrections</i> post</b>
body:
<i>From what we know, one can safely assume that these lines are made of the True Power. This is mostly because Rand had to imagine the lines that connected Asmodean. If these lines were made of saidin he would have seen/sensed them without any problem.</i><br /><br />Rand has only ever seen the black cords in other dimesions (T'A'R, the Skimming void). He cuts Asmodean's cords in the real world where they are invisible, &amp; so has to imagine them at that time. Since he did sense them in T'A'R, etc.,  they couldn't have been TP-made.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Olu Thales<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-12-25 17:48:33
subject: <b>Response to Olu</b>
body:
Well, the quote about Moridin's saa - I cannot check at the moment because I do not have my books, but I will respond to it ASAP.<br /><br />As for your second argument - you, yourself, point out that all the info we have about the TP is about the channeling itself. Throughout the series we have never heard of anyone strenghtening the weaves and leaving them like that for thousands of years. So no one can tell what will happen if someone leaves the weaves like that. Maybe (no proof for this either) they will eventually become visible in T'A'R and the skimming dimension.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">The most experienced and dangerous hitman of wotmania's Mafia<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bobbafett.gif" border="0" /><br />When it's us vs. them<br />You can always count on me!<br />THE HEELFLIP MASTER<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-12-25 20:42:08
subject: <b>Black Threads</b>
body:
Please follow this logic.<br />1) If you KNOW or force yourself to believe something is real in the dream world, then it becomes real.<br />2) Ishmael can feel the threads connecting him to the DO.<br />3) Ishmael KNOWS that the threads exist.<br />4) Ishmael KNOWS or thinks he knows that the threads are black.<br />5) Due to this the threads of TP appear in the dreamworld for Rand to see. NOTE: Rand does not &quot;feel&quot; the threads through saidin, he SEES them with his eyes.<br />6) You do not need to be able to see a weave to cut it, only know what it is and approximately where it is.<br />7) Rand, in the real world, knows WHERE and WHAT the black threads are, thus he can cut them.<br /><br />Conclusion:<br />Although only those using the TP can sense things made from the TP, its weaves can still be cut using the same principles that a saidin channeler cuts saidar weaves and vise versa.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> Asha'man Isaac <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> Student of Fel <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> <br />Theology, Philosophy, and Science.<br /><br />Religion without science is blind, science without religion is lame.  -Albert Einstien</font><p></p>


created: 2002-12-25 23:24:50
subject: <b>not likely, here's why</b>
body:
First off you're wrong about the only times we see the black cords.  Rand cuts Ishy's off in tEotW, for the first time and it is reattached later, since Rand does the same thing in tDR.  This alone makes it likely that the DO would have reattached the cords to Moridin once Ishy was put in his new body.  I also don't see how Moridin's increase in saa has anything to do with his old body.  It seems to me that the saa is something conected to the body not the soul, so there should be no tranference.  Therefore when Ishy was put in his new body, Moridin had no saa, but because of Ishy's habit of exclusive TP use he quickly develops them.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sir Jim<br />Lord of Minutia&#8482;<br />King of WoT MB Posts&#8482;<br /><br />Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-12-26 01:00:27
subject: <b>Hmm Hmm...</b>
body:
A couple of points, first to Olu about seeing the saa, the person whose eyes the saa inhabit see many more than somone who looks at his or her eyes. So when Moggy sees a single saa float across Moridin's eyes he is seeing a whole lot more.<br /><br />Second, I kinda like the idea of the black cords being some manifestation of the true power, there really isn't anything to prove one way or another. If you have problems with being able to see black cords in T'A'R and it still being true power think of it like this. A non-channeler can't see an Aes Sedai making a weave but they can see the beam of balefire that comes out.<br /><br />Lastly a good and well thought out theory, I enjoyed reading but I think Jim's post is a rather good argument against it, that being cords being reattached to Ba'alzamon. Keep up the theorizing though <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Quanchack<br />High Seat of House Guardianous<br />I'm Trigger happy!<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br />Nah, Trigger is even cooler than that<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Sa mashiara desora jeade ain tai'ayendi.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" />Al'da'din desora misain ye.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br />It's all about the evidence...</font><p></p>


created: 2002-12-26 02:25:03
subject: <b>wait...</b>
body:
Doesn't Rand specifically state that one of his &quot;ideas&quot; about how to cleanse the taint on saidin came from those black cords, because the cords were responsible for protecting the male forsaken from going mad?  The cords might be &quot;made&quot; of the TP, but there function is to filter clean saidin to the male forsaken, hence Rand's ultimate plan.


created: 2002-12-26 02:50:21
subject: <b>I guess that I have to read more carefully</b>
body:
&quot;It is ended,&quot; Rand said, and he swung the sword at Ba'alzamon's black cord.&quot;<br /><br />                Against the Shadow, The Eye of the World<br /><br />I guess you people are right after all. Although there is something interesting to note here. In ALL of the other cases we are told &quot;threadS/cordS&quot;. Anyone know why there is a difference in the forms fot this case only?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">The most experienced and dangerous hitman of wotmania's Mafia<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bobbafett.gif" border="0" /><br />When it's us vs. them<br />You can always count on me!<br />THE HEELFLIP MASTER<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-12-26 05:12:39
subject: <b>To dedric</b>
body:
Doesn't Rand specifically state that one of his &quot;ideas&quot; about how to cleanse the taint on saidin came from those black cords, because the cords were responsible for protecting the male forsaken from going mad? The cords might be &quot;made&quot; of the TP, but there function is to filter clean saidin to the male forsaken, hence Rand's ultimate plan. <br /><br />No his idea came from the wound in his side. &quot;The taint on the male half had it opposite twin, too. The wound given him by Ishamael throbbed in time with taint, while the other from Fain's balde, beat counterpoint in time with the evil that had killed Aridhol&quot;<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Founding member of the ASI</b><br /><br /><b>TP ADMIN</b><br /><br /><b>Simon</b><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-12-26 10:21:37
subject: <b>To Quanchack</b>
body:
<font size="-1"><b>A couple of points, first to Olu about seeing the saa, the person whose eyes the saa inhabit see many more than somone who looks at his or her eyes. So when Moggy sees a single saa float across Moridin's eyes he is seeing a whole lot more.</b></font><br /><br />Since we haven't had a single scene from Moridin's POV &amp; an outside observer while he's channelling the TP, both at the same time, that assertion is purely speculative. <br /><br />Once the saa have begun to manifest, their appearance at any given time seems relative to the amount of TP that is being channelled <i>at that time</i>. When Moridin weaves a Gateway in <i>Patterns within Patterns</i>, a blizzard of saa appear during the weaving. Moridin probably wasn't actively channelling when Moghedien first met him. He likely just channelled enough to make a single saa visible for dramatic effect, to unsettle Moghedien.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Olu Thales<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-12-26 11:19:03
subject: <b>TP</b>
body:
&gt;It would make sense that Moridin would channel the TP &gt;exclusively after being reborn since he would be &gt;susceptible to the taint. Good theory<br /><br />Then why didn't Aginor channel the TP after being reborn ?<br />Or was he also susceptible to the taint after his rebirth and did he enter the black tower not only to spy on Rand but to be taught to channel again with the taint ?<br />(don't believe this myself)<br /><br />The other forsaken are also allowed to use the TP, but they don't use it except in great need, because of the danger of going mad.<br /><br />Why does Moridin make use of only the TP and what's the story then with SH, who also seems to use the TP ?<br />


created: 2002-12-26 13:36:31
subject: <b>Only Moridin is allowed to use the TP</b>
body:
Demandred said only Moridin had that &quot;privelege, since his annointing.&quot;<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


created: 2002-12-26 17:07:52
subject: <b>This is crazy.</b>
body:
This is crazy.  If the DO can reach out of the Bore enough to resurrect someone, why can't he reattach the black lines.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Life is not tried it is merely survived if  you're standing outside the fire.&quot;<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> Kwestfall06 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-12-26 21:30:23
subject: <b>right...</b>
body:
Why can't the black cords be something that the DO had created, almost like his hand extending protection to his Chosen?  Who ever said it had to be the TP or the OP?<br />Sorry, dont like the theory.


created: 2002-12-27 13:36:36
subject: <b>a couple of thoughts</b>
body:
it's given that the True Power can only be weilded with the Dark One's blessing. i don't think that the dark one is responsible for creating the black cords, because only recently has he been able to affect things in Randland. (and if he could do something like that, he could have as easily messed up stuff for the good guys) therefore i propose that it is the responsability of a male channeling the True Power to create them. i say Ishy/Moridin reattached the cord to himself and to Osan/Aran'gar. Asmodean knew he could never get his reattached because he effectively changed sides.<br /><br />i do believe that the cords are made from the true power. i also like the idea that the cords are only visible in T'A'R locales. the thing is, if the TP weaves are visible in T'A'R, why aren't also weaves of saidin/saidar visible to females/males?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/thom.gif" border="0" />The Old Guy<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gandalf.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" />Who loves ya, baby?<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" /><br />In an attic somewhere there's a portrait of you getting prettier. - Stewie Griffin</font><p></p>


created: 2002-12-27 22:47:03
subject: <b>umm. duh.</b>
body:
the black cords are their ties to the DO, y'know make an oath, become bound... try reading all the quotes about asmo... yes it protected them from the taint, it also allows the DO to grab their souls to re-incarnate them.... etc.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Seeking Aes Sedai for Bondage... uhh bonding. <br /><br />We rode on the winds of the rising storm,<br />We ran to the sounds of the thunder,<br />We danced among the lightning bolts,<br />and tore the world asunder.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-12-28 06:15:00
subject: <b>This be no making sense</b>
body:
The threads would originally have been attached *after* the DO was sealed, because they are a protection against the taint, which was only put on just *after* the DO was sealed.<br /><br />Ishy uses the TP because he's a mad idiot. No problem. :-)


created: 2002-12-28 22:20:09
subject: <b>This is pointless</b>
body:
RJ himself has stated, point-blank, that channeling the TP has nothing to do with the black cord/cords.<br /><br />I don't have it in front of me, but I believe the actual quote is: &quot;Channeling the True Power is a matter of wanting to and the Dark One letting you, NOT black cords.&quot;<br /><br /><br />-Toivo<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-12-29 16:36:38
subject: <b>Once again, the point is missed.</b>
body:
This theory is saying that the reason that Moridin channels the TP is because his protection wasn't rebuilt. The black cords are that protection somehow. Whether they're build from the TP or the OP, and the TP seems more likely, is irrelevant to the theory.<br /><br />He isn't saying that the black cords are the links to the TP as some people are saying. Makes me wonder about how much English language comprehension is still taught in schools.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />   the Harvester of Mankind    <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />      the Thief of Years       <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />     the Slayer of Worlds      <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />     the Ultimate Reality      <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Blog - brucetheloon.blogspot.com</font><p></p>


created: 2002-12-31 07:11:28
subject: <b>What About Aginor and Balthamel?</b>
body:
When Aginor and Balthamel died in tEotW, they were &quot;forced&quot; back to life by the Dark One.<br /><br />Now they are Arangar (Halima) and Orangar (Dashiva)<br /><br />How come they can still channel saidin?<br /><br />If they can, Ishy (who I will assume is Moridin now) should still be able to channel saidin!!<br /><br />So maybe Moridin is not Ishamael??<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">DaNi3L<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /> RuLeR oF tHe FrEe AnD uNfReE wOrLd <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /> eViL <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" /> &quot;Trying is the first step to failing&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" /><br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> ~ Homer Simpson <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" /> ...i EnVy RaNd... <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-01 04:15:35
subject: <b>hmmm</b>
body:
Seems to me a huge leap of logic in this theory.<br /><br />The black cords seem to be a metaphorical link created by Dark one to protect the male channelers from insanity.<br /><br />It is unclear what they are made of, or either whether they actually exist beyond the mind of the channeler who bears that set of cords.<br /><br />If Demandred says that only Moridin has permission to channel TP, and yet SH channels that also, is it not possible that Demandreds comment of &quot;only Moridin&quot; refers to &quot;only Moridin out of the remaining Forsaken&quot; and that we are supposed to make that assumption.<br /><br />It is unclear to me what exactly is going on with the saa, except vaguely I recall that the condition increases with use of TP.  I can't see that the number or frequency of the saa proves anything about Moridin's original identity.  We just aren't given enough information to draw useful conclusions about that aspect of his character.<br /><br />It may be that the black cords COULD have been reattached, but that they weren't needed as Moridin had the TP to use instead.<br />


created: 2003-01-02 07:13:03
subject: <b>i don't think it matters</b>
body:
as far as i vaguely remember in tFoH after Asmodean had his cords cut he told lanfear that they were his protection. his oaths to the dark one.<br />also i remember though not where that ishy always wanted the dark one free, not so ishy could rule but rather to free his master.<br /> if someone wants to chech i think first book prologue ishy talks about using a greater power now? cuold be wrong.<br />i think the reason ishy uses the TP is simply that <br />1) he is addicted<br />2) it's his way of proving his support to the dark one. he is prepared to pay any cost in his service to the dark


created: 2003-01-03 00:30:12
subject: <b>Because he has to?</b>
body:
Maybe he cant channel saidin anymore?<br /><br />Just a thought<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> DaNi3| <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /> RuLeR oF tHe FrEe AnD uNfReE WoR|d <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rand.gif" border="0" /> ...the REAL dragon reborn... <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/avi.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />&quot;Trying is the first step to failing&quot;<br />~ Homer Simpson <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /> eVi| <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-05 13:58:05
subject: <b>ehrm...</b>
body:
'When Aginor and Balthamel died in tEotW, they were &quot;forced&quot; back to life by the Dark One.<br /><br />Now they are Arangar (Halima) and Orangar (Dashiva)<br /><br />How come they can still channel saidin?<br /><br />If they can, Ishy (who I will assume is Moridin now) should still be able to channel saidin!!<br /><br />So maybe Moridin is not Ishamael??'<br /><br />Ishamael doesn't use the one power because he chooses not to. It's evident in the prologue to the first book, &quot;I follow a different power now&quot;. The reason is probably because he's so addicted to the true power. <br /><br />A thought is that the true power tears down the walls between the different lives of a 'soul' and that is why the chosen keep their memories. That would stand to reason in Rands case too, and possibly in the case of every mad asha man who is hearing voices.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Topace_III<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/seanchan.gif" border="0" /><br />Proud property of some Seanchan lord.<br />I just CAN'T remember his name....<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-06 17:57:30
subject: <b>Hmmmm....</b>
body:
That makes sense. It also helps debunk a theory that Moridin/Ishy weren't the same because Moridin used the True Power. Good!


created: 2003-01-08 18:39:16
subject: <b>Moridin and angreal &quot;attuned&quot; to men</b>
body:
I am pretty sure Moridin can channel saidin and is only happy to do so.<br /><br />Get out your books and open to Path of Daggers, Chapter 2: Unweaving.<br /><br />As the girls escape Ebou Dar with The Bowl of Winds, Moridin watches from the roof of Tylin's castle. He knows that they are escaping with some of the items from the storage room. <br /><br />We get Moridin's POV: &quot;It was possible they were carrying away some item he could use - angreal attuned to men, perhaps - but the chances were small.&quot;<br /><br />I guess he theoretically could have been interested in an angreal for men as a gift to one of the other male Forsaken, but that doesn't really feel right to me.<br /><br />Of course, just moments after this, he draws huge amounts of the True Power as he becomes enraged at the idea that the girls have gotten away with a ter'angreal that can change weather. No mention of grabbing saidin for his little tantrum.<br /><br />More interesting to me is this: Can an angreal be &quot;attuned&quot; to male or female? As in, changing from one to another?


created: 2003-06-11 14:03:03
subject: <b>Nope.</b>
body:
I do not agree. Your theory fits, however, I believe the Dark One's reincarnation is not what you say it is.  If you recall, Cyndane (prolly spelled it wrong) is weaker in the Power than she use to be (Lanfear), so Ishy could have used the True Power all he wants, but the new body means new Saa.


created: 2005-06-23 03:01:55
subject: <b>Ummm...</b>
body:
I disagree...only becuase I think that Ishy used the True Power...alot and I mean...prolly almost all the time to counter the balance between him and the Dragon.  My Proof?  We see the Forsaken are very very careful when they talk over using the TP...so..it must have a  nasty side effect more then the Saa..and as we know...Ishy was very very off his rocker...and I fon't think the flames coming from his mouth and eyes were just to scare Rand...the flames I think are the climax of the sideeffects...what it final does to you physcally.  So when Ishy bit the big one in TDR at the stone of tear...and the Dark One took his soul and put it in some man's body and he took the name Moridin...all the effects of the True Power were gone..but he choose to channel it in this life once agian...cause he though he could defeat Rand.  I think that at the Last Battle...Moridin will become the flames eyes Forsaken we missed so much...of course I think that last battle will be more of Rand against Moridin then Rand against the DO...but thats another story


created: 2009-08-13 23:25:47
subject: <b>He was stilled</b>
body:
I believe that Moridin was stilled, hence why the DO still trusts him more than the other FS.<br /><br />There's definitely more to it than just being the DO's favourite.  It's also possible that Moridin is trying to get in sync with the DO in order to gain immortality (which none of the FS really have; Aginor and Balthamel aged because they were only just barely trapped.<br /><br />My pet theory is that Moridin actually seeks to TAKE OVER the Dragon Reborn's soul.  However, when he attacks, and overcomes Rand, LTT will spring up and fight him off, taking each other out in the process.


created: 2002-12-25 12:15:52
subject: <b>this is very well done</b>
body:
i think it is a good theory and quite possible.<br />Jordan does love to use what others call &quot;too much&quot; detail to plant his &quot;logical&quot; clues.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">patiently waiting for October 2009</font><p></p>


created: 2002-12-25 12:28:34
subject: <b>Good job</b>
body:
<i>It is the most detailed account on this subject that you will find on the internet.</i><br /><br />A little presumptious, eh. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> But you're probably right, and I have to say good theory.<br /><br />As the admin mentioned, that was a good catch on the blue Domani dress. I don't really have anything to add...that's all.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="white">Do NOT highlight this space...</font><b><font color="#FF99FF"><i>P</i></font><font color="#006699"> Floyd</font></b><font color="white">...or you'll be in trouble!</font><br /><br /><font color="white">............</font><i>'You're a pacifist with a gun, Eileen.'</i> - Sam Roberts</font><p></p>


created: 2002-12-25 15:07:01
subject: <b>About Moghedien and Moridin</b>
body:
Moghedien was not mindtrapped when she sent Ispan and Falion,<br /><br />but she did have a mindtrap by the point that Noal was seen spying on Falion and Ispan.<br /><br />It is VERY likely that Moghedien told Moridin about the cache.<br /><br />This is because Moridin later knew all about it, even though he didn't seem to have much interest in it.  In PoD, we saw Moridin watching all of them.  <br /><br />Since Moghedien told Moridin about the cache, then she most likely told him about the agents she had looking for the cache.<br /><br />The quote we have from Moridin about Cyndane, &quot;She tells me everything&quot; would imply there are very few things that Moghedien would be able to hold back from Moridin.<br /><br />Therefore, it seems unreasonable that Charin was Moridin's agent at this point.  He simply had no need.<br /><br />The arrows all point towards Graendal.<br /><br /><br />&quot;I am incognito&quot;


created: 2002-12-25 17:53:56
subject: <b>About Noal spying on Ispan and Faolain -</b>
body:
Where is that? I have to admit - it's been a few months since my last re-read. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/blush.gif" border="0" /> I'd really better get started, though, since CoT will be out soon (yeah, I know, _some_ of us have already read it... hmmmph). I'm sure you know what you're talking about here, but I totally missed it apparently. What's the book, chapter, whatever?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><font color="blud">The Blonde Domani</font><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><b>Bonded to Crazy ol Lews Therin</b><br /><font color="blue"><i><b>God is a comedian playing to an audience too afraid to laugh. -Voltaire</b></i></font><br /><font color="blut">No man in his heart is quite so cynical as a well-bred woman.</font></font><p></p>


created: 2002-12-25 22:19:55
subject: <b>Hint,</b>
body:
Breath, is just an alias.  It's my Christmas Day facade.<br /><br />But who is the wotmaniac behind the disguise?<br /><br />Who could it be?<br /><br />I'm not telling, at least not yet.


created: 2002-12-26 09:59:35
subject: <b>The cache........</b>
body:
I always thopught it was somewhere in Illian, because i remember when we first see Grendal with her ring angreal, she says something about it being difficult to get it out with Al'thor all around or something like that (ill repost if i get exact page and chapter) then again there have been many things that i was sure about and was completely wrong, so i could have misinterpreted the quote.


created: 2002-12-26 11:35:23
subject: <b>Would you believe</b>
body:
that I submitted this theory about two weeks ago with almost the exact same title? However you included the part about Sammael calling her a traitor that I left out. <br /><br /> Good job, better than my own!<br /><br /> A little more Light in the Night.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2002-12-27 09:30:44
subject: <b>Good Job With One small Problem</b>
body:
I agree with your theory about Graendal spying on Mat but I think she is doing it in person for the msot part and therefore doesn't need anyone else.  I think she has used the Mask of Mirrors and become several different women around Ebou Dar to spy on Mat.  It's that easy to do.  Mat loves being around lots of women and until the Seanchan arrived RJ pointed out many different women who had contact with Mat including your blue dressed Domani.  <br /><br />So yes she is spying on him but no Noal isn't her goon.  She doesn't need one. Besides I have a problem wtih Jain Farstrider working for the Forsaken.  I just can't stomach the thought.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Danu referring to Tigr:  &quot;...his tongue is amazing!&quot;<br /><br /><br /><br /> <br /></font><p><a href="http://tinyurl.com/sygea" target="_blank">Neil Gaiman Revolving Book Club</a></p><p></p>


created: 2002-12-27 11:30:49
subject: <b>Tigr, You must get used to stomaching it....</b>
body:
Because Farstrider has already unwittingly worked for Ishmael once before.  Check the FAQ about him.<br /><br />Here is the thing, Noal is showing big signs of compulsion.<br /><br />He is not doing this voluntarily.<br /><br />Most of Graendal's pets do not appear to be darkfriends, just pets under compulsion.<br /><br />Check the FAQ about him, and Matrimony Cauthon's 2 theories about Farstrider and Graendal.


created: 2002-12-27 13:47:58
subject:
<b>Who the heck are you really, Breath? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /></b>

body:
Honestly - as the kind-hearted admin who posted your theory, you at least owe me a noteboard telling me who you normally masquerade as here. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />  C'mon, you  know you want to...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><font color="blud">The Blonde Domani</font><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><b>Bonded to Crazy ol Lews Therin</b><br /><font color="blue"><i><b>God is a comedian playing to an audience too afraid to laugh. -Voltaire</b></i></font><br /><font color="blut">No man in his heart is quite so cynical as a well-bred woman.</font></font><p></p>


created: 2002-12-27 15:00:28
subject: <b>You may be right</b>
body:
but Graendal is a master of compulsion and uses it often.  Do you really think that she would allow one of her pets to show &quot;signs of compulsion&quot; as you say?<br /><br />Nynaeve and Elayne didn't show any signs when Moggi used compulsion on them briefly and compared to Graendal, Moggi is an amateur.<br /><br />I do think it is a good theory and worth discussing but I just can't agree with that part of it yet.  Maybe COT will shed light on this.  Then again, Breath seems like a very smart and resourceful person, maybe he(she) has already read it and knows this stuff for fact.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Danu referring to Tigr:  &quot;...his tongue is amazing!&quot;<br /><br /><br /><br /> <br /></font><p><a href="http://tinyurl.com/sygea" target="_blank">Neil Gaiman Revolving Book Club</a></p><p></p>


created: 2002-12-27 15:52:31
subject: <b>I am Breath</b>
body:
I typed this theory as Breath cause I didn't really want to claim credit for this theory personally.<br /><br />I wrote some of the parts, but at least half of them actually belong to Light in the Night.  I hadn't realized it, but LitN was actually trying to post this same theory.<br /><br />But since this place has been so BEREFT of theories, I wanted to give everybody a Christmas gift.  I was actually trying to sound kind of arrogant in it.  Just to be funny.<br /><br />I thought someone might recognize my style of theory writing, but I haven't seen all the normals around lately.  I think it is 'cause there have been so few theories.  Well, oh well.<br /><br />Have a good New Year<br /><br />MC<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ADA- AlannaDawn Anonymous-- helping wotmaniacs recovering from their AlanndaDawn Addictions in a dynamic new 12-step program.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-12-27 17:30:46
subject: <b>Thanks for the plug MC!</b>
body:
We actually discussed this way back in Sept. on a blackboard post, then again on a MB thread in Nov. I was attempting to put it up for the same reasons. I don't like coming here every day and not seeing a new theory for people to comment on. I am sure MC feels like I do, that it does show the Forsaken have been covertly active, and Graendal has always been pretty mysterious with her actions. <br /><br /> I know we will have plenty of new theories to flame shortly. I just hope the admins will level the playing field for those of us that don't have a copy of CoT yet. Of course, they probably don't have their copy yet either, so that should help.<br /><br /> A little more Light in the Night!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2002-12-27 23:34:25
subject: <b>Ahh! Accidently erased my well-crafted argument!</b>
body:
Okay, here's the bare bones of my argument for Graendal being disguised as Noal.<br /> -Jordan says in several places that Noal is surprisingly spry, unusual for an old man.<br /> -Noal's &quot;bumpy and broken fingers&quot; = Graendal's ringed fingers in disguise.<br /> -In the summary of CoT on amazon, it says the Shadow is chasing Mat. I haven't seen it recently, maybe it's Graendal disguised as Noal.<br /> -Noal seems to have extensive knowledge of the Shara, even Thom seems convinced. Only other character we know who has that kind of knowledge is Graendal.<br /> -Noal shows little surprise at the gholam.<br /> -I forgot my other reasons.<br />Well, that's what's left of my argument.<br />  -woohoo


created: 2002-12-28 10:22:49
subject: <b>I think you are incorrect.</b>
body:
Mat sees the woman in the Bar, and thinks on her attractiveness.  Graendel, on the other hand, changes into an older, &quot;frail&quot; woman in front of Sammael.  The only things that are similar are a blue dress and the rings, two things which may well be coincidence.  It seems they are entirely different people, in fact.  <br /><br />I re-read this about two days ago, so perhaps I have missed something.  I think you are stretching this, though.  Perhaps I have missed something; I'll go and check.  <br /><br />Also, I am not saying your entire theory is wrong, merely this point.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">eatbugs, when asked of her favorite philosopher: <br /><br />&quot;<i>favourite? non of them. unemployed dole bludgers, all of them. get a real job. bunch of hippies</i>&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2002-12-28 16:15:14
subject: <b>I don't have the books on me so I cannot quote</b>
body:
But as I recall,<br /><br />the older frail lady you refer to is one of Graendal's other disguises 'Lady Basene.'<br /><br />i remember having that same thought.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ADA- AlannaDawn Anonymous-- helping wotmaniacs recovering from their AlanndaDawn Addictions in a dynamic new 12-step program.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-12-28 16:27:50
subject:
<b>I guessed it was you MC <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> - although I hardly ever post here...</b>

body:
I recongised your style of writing. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> <br />I agree with the theory. Well done LItN et MC - I voted 'yes'.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">~ <font face="Kristen ITC"> <font color="#1382FF">T</font><font color="#1313FF">h</font><font color="#8213FF">e</font> <font color="#F113FF">A</font><font color="#FF139E">r</font><font color="#FF132F">t</font><font color="#FF6613">f</font><font color="#FFD513">u</font><font color="#BAFF13">l</font> <font color="#4BFF13">D</font><font color="#13FF4B">o</font><font color="#13FFBA">d</font><font color="#13D5FF">g</font><font color="#1366FF">e</font><font color="#2F13FF">r</font> ~</font><br /> <font face="Monotype Corsiva">-The One Who Dodges Art-</font></font><p></p>


created: 2002-12-29 18:10:19
subject: <b>Aw, nuts</b>
body:
I thought it was Matrimony when I read Breath's comment, and I was going to post it, but then I got a little farther down the posts to find he'd already announced himself.  Shucks.  Good theory though, to MC and LitN.  <br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Luck is a horse to ride like any other<br /><br />StaffWielder@wotmania.com</font><p></p>


created: 2002-12-30 08:29:58
subject: <b>Graendal/Noal</b>
body:
I thought your evidence was well presented, but there is one assumption which, I think, does not have to be made. <br /><br />You point out that because Noal is spying on Carridin, et all, he must be an agent of Graendal. I agree that, circumstancially (based on the rest of your evidence), this would seem correct. However, there is another way to look at it. Since when did any of the Forsaken trust anybody? Since when did any of them have any respect for any of their servents--or anybody else who is alive in this age? Like I said, I agree that it points to the Graendal/Noal connection, but Noal could just as easily belong to one of the other Forsaken. He might just be keeping tabs on some of his colleagues. The cache might just be important enough that Sammy don't want his idiot servants messing up, so he's got Noal keeping an eye on them. Something like that. <br /><br />Just pointing out the possibility.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Regardless of whether the glass is 'half full' or 'half empty,' half of it is definitely in my tummy--and if I'm lucky, it's beer.&quot;<br />-A Very Wise Man</font><p></p>


created: 2002-12-31 05:52:30
subject: <b>Lauriana Sedia</b>
body:
I just read the theory and your question about spying on Ispan peaked my interest because I had just read it.  It is written about in the last 6 paragraphs of ch. 17 &quot;The Triumph of Logic&quot; in ACOS. :80 I'm just a humble servant of the light


created: 2002-12-31 22:20:55
subject:
<b>Greymans Bane, you are great! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> Thanks a lot!</b>

body:
Love the name, by the way. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> I'm glad to finally have that question answered. I'm also way too wasted (it being new years eve and all - woo-hoo!) to keep typing. Being an admin and all, I'd hate to do or say something embarassing. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br />*climbs up on table and begins to dance like those wacky Tinker gals* <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/blush.gif" border="0" /> I'm gonna regret that tomorrow. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Happy new years, guys!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><font color="blud">The Blonde Domani</font><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><b>Bonded to Crazy ol Lews Therin</b><br /><font color="blue"><i><b>God is a comedian playing to an audience too afraid to laugh. -Voltaire</b></i></font><br /><font color="blut">No man in his heart is quite so cynical as a well-bred woman.</font></font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-01 10:08:09
subject: <b>The only time Sammael sees her...</b>
body:
...change her appearance is when she changes into Basene.  Later in the book, both Elayne and Nynaeve weave the mask of mirrors to alter their appearance, and they become attractive (in fact, I think one wears a blue dress).  I believe these two things have simply mixed you up.  She does not change into the woman from the bar in front of Sammael, she only changes into Basene (or whatever the name is).


created: 2003-01-03 15:55:27
subject: <b>So?</b>
body:
I say again....<br /><br />SO???<br /><br />okay.. so your probably right.... <br />but really.... how interesting is that...<br />it`s not a BIG thing that the forsaken spy.....<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">You are all MAD I tell you! <br /><br />Mwahahahahahahahah! hahahhaha! hahaha....haha....ha..h....eh?<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-07 18:56:41
subject: <b>Modest vs. 'More than hinted...'</b>
body:
I disagree with the basis of this, though I do assume that she is watching him.<br /><br />Here's why...<br /><br />She'd not have to change the level of modesty she presented to be disguised, and yet one dress is described as 'modest' and one is described as 'more than hinting.'  That would seem to indicate a different state of mind for the person displaying it, and I'm not buying it.  Maybe I'm holding on too long (as the numbers would tend to indicate most would believe), but I don't find that to be compelling.  I'd figure her to be disguised as a serving girl or something less obvious, and if she's going to spin the mask of mirrors, she'd also disguise her rings and the like.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Just me...<br /><br />Subbie<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">No matter how you shake and dance...<br /><br />When you die you're food for worms and ants!</font><p></p>


created: 2003-04-25 15:00:48
subject: <b>Very interesting</b>
body:
Both a good and a bad theory IMO.  Quite good and well supported as far as the Noal/Greandal connection goes.  I just posted in another thread about how that wrinkled old man in Greandal's palace had been bothering me.  There is no way that such a thing was mentioned if it didn't mean something.  Therefore Greandal has some use for a wrinkled old man that supercedes her usual need for beautiful, powerful, servants.  I'm not really sure how I missed the obvious connection between that old man and Noal before.  I guess it's becuase of what I see as the bad side of this theory.  I LIKE Noal heh.  I don't really want to see him wind up being either a tool of the forsaken or a darkfriend himself.<br /><br />I do like the Greandal character though...layers upon layers with that one.


created: 2003-10-31 08:56:07
subject: <b>perrin's spy</b>
body:
Luc/Issam had been doing the spying on perrin for a while... currently many people believe Annoura to be black ajah so that could be the current Perrin spy<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Serack Doushi</font><p></p>


created: 2004-10-19 17:26:36
subject: <b>But what FORSAKEN...</b>
body:
...is sending the bug on Perrins wall?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">The only way to convince me is by providing some evidence!</font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-25 18:22:55
subject: <b><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /></b>
body:
very well written.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">A team is only as good as its worst player. That would be me. <br />Proud Collaborator of the imaginary band Dumai's Wells<br />boys can dream... Girl's dreams come true.<br />Mat is not a bloody lord. However, I am <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /><br />Resident Mat Worshipper <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /><br />~GMR</font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-05 03:10:29
subject: <b>good theory... but not biblically accurate</b>
body:
while yes... the Bible does say that an angel bound Satan up for a thousand years, and that he came back and gathered the whole earth against the city of saints (I assume this is the War of Shadow). But then: &quot;And the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur.. and they were tormented day and night forever&quot; (Rev 20:10). This does not sound like what LTT did. <br /><br />Or you might be saying that when he was released was when the bore was made... and the entire third age is while Satan gathered the Earth. But this does not explain LTT or why the shadow was so inactive for a good part of the third age.<br /><br />In addition the River of Life (along which the Tree of Life grows) exists in the New Jerusalem <i> after </i> Satan was in the pool of fire. Don't get me wrong, I am sure that Jordan borrowed from the Bible... but not at all to the point that you are suggesting. It just does not fit. <br /><br />As for the world existing before Adam and Eve I can see that much. Maybe the Last Battle at the end of the seventh age resulted in the world being flooded entirely with water and all life destroyed.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;With the recent accomplishment of the manned lunar landing.... The 1981 manned Mars mission (1982 landing on Mars) is shown as an integral part of the total space program in the next two decades.&quot;<br />- Space Task Group August 4. 1969</font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-05 04:00:11
subject: <b>Nice theory</b>
body:
And Nicholi,<br />In the sense of the story, remember each book starts off with &quot;History becomes Legend, Legend becomes Myth, and even Myth is long forgotten when the age that gave it birth comes again&quot;. That is to say, RJ is borrowing from these things, yes, but he is also twisting them a bit. It's as if he is telling the real story behind our myth. Fantasy all the way mind, he is no prophet, but thats the fun of it. Our myth is their history, their myth is our history &quot;lenn flying to the moon in the belly of an eagle&quot; == John Glenn in the Lunar Module, the LEM (Lenn) and &quot;the <b>eagle</b> has landed&quot;. It's really fantasy to the core. Never look for a play by play parallel, always look for the hint at our lore (myth). Another is the arch angel Michael being the M'heal (Taim), after so much time passes, the &#8220;ic&#8221; is dropped, and Michael is remembered as a good guy... just fiction and fun, but it is fun no?<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Why on earth would anybody want to kidnap a groundhog?&quot;<br /><br />&quot;I can think of a few reasons, the pervert!&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-05 06:04:03
subject: <b>just a bit of a correction</b>
body:
I like the theory, but I had to point out one Biblical innaccuracy. In the theory, you quote Genesis 9:11 and mention that God promised never to destroy the world again. But the actual verse says, &quot;...Never again will all life be cut off by the waters of a flood; never again will there be a flood to destroy the earth.&quot; God is merely promising not to destroy the Earth using water. It never says that He will not destroy, or allow it to be destroyed, by another means. Just wanted to add my two cents.


created: 2003-01-05 17:53:08
subject: <b>Before the Beginning...</b>
body:
All in all a very good theory! Though you missed a good opportunity...If you had compared the original Hebrew Genesis with the Bible's you would find different wordings. For instance, a more accurate translation of the first two verses of Genesis would be &quot;In a former state God perfected the heavens and the earth. But the earth had become a ruin and a desolation, and the darkness of judgment was upon the face of it.&quot;<br />That gives a much stronger suggestion of an Earth existing before the Creation.<br />Furthermore, when God created Adam and Eve, His first commandment was &quot;Be fruitful and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it.&quot; The key word was replenish, suggesting that a past catastrophe destroyed the earth, and that life was re-created to replace what had perished before. This is even more glaring once you read the Judeo-Christian Apocrypha (collection of Bible stories taken out of the Bible by the Church): Lucifer and his angels rebelled against God before the Creation of Eden, in an attempt to turn God's Kingdom into a kind of &quot;the Angels' Republic of Heaven.&quot; The rebellion was defeated and to remove every trace of this war, the world was completely destroyed, then re-created. Even so, a second Angelic civil war is prophesied as part of Armageddon. Very like the War of Power before the Breaking of the World, then the buildup of Shadow power for Tarmon Gai'don, wouldn't you say?<br /><br />That part about Satan being thrown in the Lake of Fire to perish forever...doesn't that sound like the Dark One being thrown into that lake of fire in the Pit of Doom?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Gaeran Amaconde<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />Grand Historian at the Court of the Sun<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />One of Those Chosen to Bring the Light<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" />Master of Graendal's Revels<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" />&quot;If sometimes our dreams come true, what of our nightmares?&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-06 21:24:40
subject: <b>It's always the 3rd Age</b>
body:
Memories fade to legend, legend fades to myth<br /><br />So the 1st age would be the age of myth, the second age could be the &quot;age of legends&quot;, and the 3rd age contains current memories.<br /><br />By this logic, when the fourth age is reached the first age will be forgotten (before the age that gave it birth comes again) and so people can only remember the previous two ages. Therefore the age you are currently in is always going to be the third


created: 2003-01-06 21:25:21
subject: <b>A few incorrect Biblical references</b>
body:
Especially by the poster above me.  The original Hebrew, which, I sadly can't put on this site, because it doesn't support my IME, reads, &quot;B'reisheet bara Elohim et hashamayim v'et ha aretz.  V'ha aretz haya tohu vavohu, vhosheh al pnei t'hom.&quot;  Then, later, it says, &quot;V'yomer Elohim, y'hi rakiya b'toch hamayim, v'yhi mavdil beyn mayim l'mayim.&quot;<br />Oh, translations?<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />  Sure:  In the beginning (which is only missing one letter to be &quot;during creation&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> God created the heavens and the Earth.  And the Earth was void and without form (one of these words is only seen once more, and the other never, but they are accepted to mean chaotic, formless, etc.), and darkness was on the face of everything.  The next part reads: And God said, &quot;There will be a barrier in the midst of the water, and there will be a division between the water and the water.&quot;<br />Basically, there is nothing to suggest that the Earth existed, in any form, before Creation.  One could say that the entropy mentioned is the end stage of the universe, as determined by science, so the universe could have just ended, and then was restarting, but that's kind of stretching it.  I think you wrote an excellent theory, although I think the point of the Voice was to say that Rand's tantrum at the pass was not the final ground.  I simply think that the wheel idea, which is borrowed more from eatern religions than from Judaism or Christianity, does not coincide quite so heavily with the Bible.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">It is not over, it is just the end.<br />Every end is a new beginning.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-07 01:09:22
subject: <b>Nice Theory</b>
body:
Even though I voted against your theory, I liked the originality.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> AOBtD <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />It`s frustrating when you know all the answers, but nobody bothers to ask you the questions.<br /><br />Never be afraid to try something new. Remember, amateurs built the ark. Professionals built the Titanic.<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-07 11:58:19
subject: <b>Except...(CoT spoiler ahead)</b>
body:
I know it's new, but I just wanted to point this out first;-)  I found this passage while flipping through my brand new copy of Crossroads of Twilight.<br /><br />In CoT p. 558, Rand thinks to himself, &quot;Did he think the Creator had decided to stretch out a merciful hand after three thousand years of suffering?  The Creator had made the world and then left humankind to make of it what they would, a heaven or the Pit of Doom by their choosing.  The Creator had made many worlds, watched each flower or die, and gone on to make endless worlds beyond.  A gardener did not weep for each blossom that fell.&quot;<br /><br />Even though this is only Rand thinking, it lends credence to the notion that RJ has set up a cosmology that owes strongly to deism.  Lews Therin, by the way, agrees with Rand on this point.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">cynic79</font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-10 15:04:09
subject: <b>Hmmmm</b>
body:
Whilst it is true that RJ <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> manages to 'borrow' many threads from world beliefs, histories, folktales, mythologies, and even modern fiction to weave into his tale - you have to admit that you're stretching the credulity of your readership to suggest this is anything like a parallel to the world of the bible.<br /><br />Try reading CS LEwis' Narnia series - unabashedly symbolic. <br />Maybe you should just enjoy WoT for the fiction it is, and if you want to study the bible do it for it's own sake.<br /><br />Peace<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> The spider's bane<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Maegnas is my name<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-blue.gif" border="0" /> I am the spider's bane<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/birgitte.gif" border="0" /> <i>Elven lover of Legolas</i><br /><br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-11 18:25:19
subject: <b>i now realize this question is pointless</b>
body:
Windsor: so you are suggesting that Jordan takes prophesy and twists it? While I agree on him taking the past events and distorting them, I don't see why he would take something that works the other direction and distort it.<br /><br />As for it always being the Third age that is stupid. Here is why: if the people in the third age realize that they are in the third age, and another age passes, then they say: &quot;it was the third age. The next age has begun... so it must be the fourth age.&quot; I would have to agree with Bookman186 that the Wheel of Time is not totally compatible with our conceptions of the universe (which are the ideas put forth in the Bible). I would have to say that that CoT spoiler is kinda pointless. I mean, how on earth would Rand know if the creator was like a gardener? While I like the idea, from where he is I would say it could be nothing more than a personal belief. After all... since when has some sheepherder became a philosopher? That is Ishy's job.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;With the recent accomplishment of the manned lunar landing.... The 1981 manned Mars mission (1982 landing on Mars) is shown as an integral part of the total space program in the next two decades.&quot;<br />- Space Task Group August 4. 1969</font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-11 18:30:23
subject: <b>Anohter thing.....</b>
body:
The bible isn't all translated correctly, durning the medieval times, so many kings changed things in the bible, things that they don't like.  There is things that are not changed and some that are not.  So I really don't trust everything in the bible.  You have a different version of the bible of ours cause it said &quot;Never again I will FLOOD the Earth.&quot;


created: 2003-01-14 14:14:28
subject: <b>Yes that is what I am suggesting Nicholi</b>
body:
You see, their myth is our history, their history is our myth. It's a wheel you see, a wheel of time. <br /><br />QUOTE: While I agree on him taking the past events and distorting them, I don't see why he would take something that works the other direction and distort it.<br /><br />Ok, see being that it is a wheel, it doesn't go the other direction, it just comes back around to that place again. This is fundamental to the book series. I gave some examples for both. In their myth&#8221;<br /><br /> they have a bit of our history; John Glen in the LEM (lunar module) and &#8220;The eagle has landed&#8221; == their myth about Lenn flying to the moon in the belly of an eagle. <br /><br />And part of their history that is our myth. That being Lews Therin == Lucifer (notice both start with &#8220;Lews&#8221; sound) and Taim the M'hael == Arc Angel Michael (just drop &#8220;ic&#8221; from Michael) as being a part of their history that is our myth. it keeps repeating like this because time is a wheel, and these events keep getting spun out again and again and again, though slightly different each time according to RJ. Now it is just fantasy, but I think it is very clever on RJ&#8217;s part.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Why on earth would anybody want to kidnap a groundhog?&quot;<br /><br />&quot;I can think of a few reasons, the pervert!&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-05 21:48:37
subject: <b>Hope you don't see this as too critical...</b>
body:
I generally liked it. But...<br /><br />&quot;I believe that the Gholam is a human Ter'angreal because of the similarities between the creature and the fox-head medallion that Mat wears. And keep in mind the fact that we have been shown at least once that humans can be altered by using the one power. For instance the once- human playing pieces used in the game Zara.&quot;<br /><br />Firstly we have seen ter'angreals that can do things people can. For example, the dream ter'angreal allows people to enter TAR, while Egwene can just do it. Egwene clearly is not a ter'angreal. So just the similarities between the two is not enough.<br /><br />I believe the gholam is a construct. Like the Nym. The Nym were created by man, but their souls are real, they are borrowed from the Pattern as it were. The Nym have abilities humans do not, yet they are not ter'angreal. Therefore while the gholam may well be able to do things humans can't, it does not mean they are ter'angreal. After all, Aginor created the gholam, the Myddraal (indirectly), the trollocs, the draghkar. He created the trollocs by combincing genetic material from man and beast. The draghkar were also human once, before thye were corrupted (genetically). The tollocs may not be able to do anything over man, but the draghkar can, with their song. That does not make them ter'angreal, they are constructs. I believe in a similar way to their song, the gholam's ability to repel the One Power does not need to be through a ter'angreal.<br /><br />&quot;I believe that the Gholam was created using the True power. This was done for a very practical reason: to insure stealth. If you consider that almost every Aes Sedai can detect and identify objects of the power, it is likely that every channeler in the Age of Legends would have been able to do so.&quot;<br /><br />As I have said, other Shadowspawn were also created through use of the One Power, to combine their genes or whatever else. It does not mean they are objects of the Power to be detected. If they were made OF the Power, then perhaps, but they are simply made WITH the Power instead, and, just like if you are healed with the Power it does not show to other channelers that that is how, it would not be detectable.<br /><br />I'm not discounting the idea that they were made with the True Power however.<br /><br />&quot;Also, recall the Gholam's reaction to the use of the True Power:<br /><br />&quot;And a feel ... of something. Not the One Power, but something that made it ... itch, if not quite in the same way. ...The Gholam seemed to remember something that made it itch in that manner, yet so much of what he recalled was fogged and dim.&quot; (PoD (paperback): ch.2, pp.83-84) <br /><br />It's obvious that the Gholam could not identify the True Power here. We can assume that the creature would not have simply forgotten it, since it clearly seems to remember Saidar and Saidin quite well. So it was most likely never directly assaulted with the True Power.&quot;<br /><br />We can't assume that, in the War of Power saidan and saidar would have been used FAR more than the True Power, it would be much easier for the gholam to remember them, even if there was an attempted attack on him once with the True Power.<br /><br />&quot;The Gholam may only have felt the True Power used a few times (or possibly only once, at its &#8216;conception'). If the True Power had been used during its creation, it might well remember how it felt but definitely not clearly.&quot;<br /><br />You might well be right, I just don't think the evidence you gave holds up.<br /><br />&quot;The Ter'angreal were similar in that both allowed access into another world, or possibly the same world. When the two were brought together, it created a resonance causing a near catastrophic (or at least an unpleasant) event.&quot;<br /><br />True, but we have seen Nynaeve and Cadsuane close together with many similar, even indentical in purpose ter'angreal.<br /><br />It seems clear that the reason the gholam was hurt was because of the foxhead's similarity to it. However, a stedding also has very similar properties. A stedding isn't a ter'angreal. I have no evidence (though hopefully I will one day), but I believe a gholam will die if it enters a stedding.<br /><br />&quot;The second scenario requires a little more thought, you also have to buy into my idea about the Gholam being created by the True Power. First I will state that the True Power is like the negative balance to the One Power's positive charge.&quot;<br /><br />Perhaps. It's a big jump to make though, with little evidence. If anything it seems saidar can be destructive, saidan is naturally destructive and the True Power is terribly destructive. It seems like saidan, only more so, rather than opposites.<br /><br />&quot;This reaction could explain how a Ter'angreal created by the True Power (the Gholam) and one created by the One Power, (the medallion) could affect one another in a violent manner.&quot;<br /><br />How do you know the foxhead was created by the One Power? It probably was, but that could be True Power too. I don;t believe there is any evidence either way, though True Power seems unlikely.<br /><br />&quot;As to why the creature has a need for blood, I theorize that it is the human part of the Gholam that makes it a useful tool. It is cunning, thinks for itself and is capable of fear (dodging the fox head medallion); these are not common traits among inanimate Ter'angreal.&quot;<br /><br />Which is why I believe it's a construct, with a &quot;borrowed&quot; (stolen) soul.<br /><br />&quot;So keeping the body alive would be an essential part of being an effective killing machine. The consumption of fresh blood would in a way replenish the body and mind of the Gholam (therefore keeping the human part alive).&quot;<br /><br />I've never really thought about the fact that the gholam eats before. I just...accepted it and moved on. Interesting. The gholam describes fresh blood as a &quot;necessity&quot;. But is it necessary to keep him alive, to keep him strong, or neither, it was simply built into him to make him want to kill even more. A most dangerous weapon. I don't know how you could possibly ever get a gholam in a situation where it couldn't kill anything, but if you somehow could...could it die from hunger?<br /><br />&quot;Now the important part: how to kill it. Based on its need for blood, you could trap it somehow (possibly with indirect channeling) and starve it&quot;<br /><br />Oops, I'd forgotten you typed this bit while I did the above, oh well, see above on this point.<br /><br />&quot;Another option is to attack the Gholam with indirect channeling, lightning, fire or an earthquake might do the trick.&quot;<br /><br />I don't think that would work,it is a difference between Mat's foxhead and the gholam. The gholam were active during the War of Power, yet says nothing had ever harmed it before Mat, and I find it very hard to believe no one attempted to call lightning down or throw a fieball at him in all that time. I would find it hard to believe none of those in the room with the Bowl of Winds didn't try a fireball, even if they initially tried to wrap him in air.<br /><br />&quot;But in my opinion, based on the fact that it is still hanging around Mat (and we have all come to grips with the fact that he will eventually harness the power of gunpowder. &quot;May the light have mercy on you if you haven't&quot; )  the Gholam will most likely be blown into a million tiny pieces of meat.&quot;<br /><br />I doubt it, far more powerful weapons existed during the AoL than a cannon.<br /><br />Personally I believe Mat will lead it into a stedding, probably by accident, and the gholam will buuuuurn!


created: 2003-01-05 21:50:03
subject: <b>Not entirely sure I agree</b>
body:
I understand where you are coming from with a gholam being a ter'angreal, but I don't think that's why Mat's medallion hurts it.  I always had a feeling it was more from the sense that Mat's medallion absorbs/destroys any power channelled at it.  If the gholam was made from the power or is a product of the power, then Mat's medallion would have a similar effect, ie: trying to absorb or destroy it.  Who knows what would happen if Mat's medallion came into direct contact with any other ter'angreal, hmmmm, like an a'dam or something.  Interesting.  I hadn't thought about this before.<br /><br />As for the need for blood, sure the gholam needs to feed on it for strength etc, but I'm not sure starving it from blood would necessarily kill it.  It wouldn't have been near blood since the Breaking when it was locked in a stasis box or whatever.  Then again, I suppose that depends on how a stasis box works.<br /><br />In any case, my instincts tell me that you may be very close on some points, and yet miles away on others (oh, what a helpful comment!!)


created: 2003-01-06 09:05:55
subject: <b>I like but...</b>
body:
as i said i like this thought, but few probs. also u cant trap a gholam with air or whatever - flows just melt when they touch the gholam so it could just walk through.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/berelain.gif" border="0" /> = The Dude That Had Your Momma  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/berelain.gif" border="0" /> =<br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> = Tai'Shar Alsation <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> =<br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" />  The WoT's Repairman  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> The Third Destroyer <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> The Great Lord Cheesemonger <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br />       LOGAIN FOR PRESIDENT</font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-06 11:00:44
subject: <b>.</b>
body:
&quot;. . . . far more powerful weapons existed during the AoL than a cannon.&quot;<br /><br />True, but they were all One Power-based (shocklance, etc.)  We've seen that the Gholam deals with physical damage pretty handily (daggers, etc.), due to the infinitely malleable nature of his body.  But I have to believe that if Mat were to embed an explosive into it's chest, it'd slow him down some.<br /><br />I can't help but think of Terminator 2.<br /><br />Given current One Power based methods of attack, I think the best way to incapacitate the thing would be to get someone fairly strong at weaving Earth and pull up a big stone box around the Gholam.  Seal it off completely, and put a big &quot;Do Not Open&quot; sticker on it.  Even if he doesn't starve to death, he'd be out of the picture for quite a while.<br /><br />The trick would be to encounter the thing in a position where that'd be possible.  Despite it's obvious combat advantages, it doesn't seem to favor a full frontal assault.  Because of that tendency, I imagine the Gholam itself is fully aware of its own limitations &amp; vulnerabilities.


created: 2003-01-06 11:45:54
subject: <b>One Power/True Power Detection</b>
body:
Aren't channelers able to sense shadowspawn? Since the shadowspawn are constructs created by the one power, that is one, fairly likely, reason that other channelers can sense them. They are living beings created by the power rather than inanimate objects created by the power.<br /><br />If that is true, then it follows that constructs created by the TP might well not be sensed by channelers.<br /><br />Also, I believe that the arguement between construct and ter'angreal is academic. It is highly unlikely that the Gholam's OP-absorbing abilities are anything but directly power-related. Therefore, as a construct, it displays many of the same properties of a ter'angreal. I believe the rest of the arguements stemming from the &quot;living ter'angreal&quot; point still stand.<br /><br />Finally, Three in a Boat, your observation that Nynaeve and Cadsuane have similar ter'angreals in close proximity doesn't hold up, because in the other two cases, that of Egwene's dream ter'angreal and Mat foxhead medalian, the ter'angreals actually came into physical contact (or one entered into the other). We also have to consider the effects of the various ter'angreals before we can make blanket statements like they always or never react. In Egwene's case, both ter'angreal were designed the take the user into another dimension. The cumulative effects of that could be disasterous. In Mat's case, both ends worked to absorb the power. Maybe the fact that they were trying to absorb each other caused the damage. Hard to say, yet.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Rob<br /><br />&quot;I am satisfied that your answer is correct. I am not, however, satisfied that your answer is right...&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-06 14:07:20
subject: <b>Pretty Neat!</b>
body:
Several things.<br /><br />First, really well thought-out!  Kudos.  I liked the long responses, too.<br /><br />Now, I think a Gholam is made with the True Power, the One Power's opposite number - though the ter'angreal thought does hold water.<br /><br />My opinion is that we were given a clue when Rand met Moridin in Shadar Logoth and they did the 'cross the streams' thing.  The OP and TP clearly don't mix - maybe especially when similar-effect weaves are used.  Mat's ter'angreal dissolves weaves, and so does the Gholam.<br /><br />My thoughts - Hwyl! (Welsh 'bye' - literally 'fun'!  I like the Welsh...)<br /><br />Branwhin <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />


created: 2003-01-06 14:44:23
subject: <b>My 2 cents..</b>
body:
First ... <br /><br />Channelers sensing Shadowspawn... Yes in most cases the The Aes Sedai Their Warders (somethin to do with the bond or gifts they gain) and Ash'aman are able to sense them ....2 times i can think of that they failed are..  In book 2 When Moiraine Stops by The Two Twin sisters (one dies in book 8/or 9)  and a Draknar attacks her.. Now she thinks to herself...It must have been warded by a Black Sister..or she'd know it was coming.. <br /><br />seconnd is in Illian Book 2 or 3 ..Perrin Faile,Moiraine and Lan sit down to eat...They get attacked by 2 greymen...and Perrin afterwards smells sulfur..later lan and him see tracks of darkhounds outside..neither Lan or Moiraine sense the darkhounds..I'm not sure if They can't no matter hat or if sammy warded his Darkhounds..<br />Now many times in the series Shadow Spawn have been sensed by AS and rand Before he knew it.. Theres the attack on Elmonds Field.......Moiriane and Lan burst out of the Inn rdy to fight.....<br /><br />How would the Gholam be attacked by the True power??  First note that around 30 ppl have ever been able to channel it..those were the Forsaken/chosen of the the AOL/AOP only 13 lived...Now there was 6 Gholam 3male/3 female (unless they breeded and well..then theres more =P) Now i doubt that Aginor would unleash these terrors apon the world without someway to control them.. So there must be a way for the Forsaken to Control them... <br />Now i doubt that  the competing forsaken would use Gholams to kill each other... ..It's messy..leading to the others left to know it was a Gholam...   and only Aginor..or aginor and 5 other have control over one so it was one of them ...theres other ways to kill other forsaken without it being know it was another forsaken....<br /><br />Now it could happen that a Forsaken Gets on the DO's badside so he wants him/her killed Aginor Unleashes one of his 6 pets to kill the Forsaken to gain favor without risking himself....the thing is  the TP would never be used ..If the DO wants a Forsaken dead...when tjhe gholam shows uphe's not gonna let them Use ther TP to stop/kill the gholam...<br /><br />My point is this....I doubt that a Gholam has had the TP used Against him...he mighht have sensed it used around him...Ishy loves to use the Tp ..<br /><br /><br />Finally, Three in a Boat, your observation that Nynaeve and Cadsuane have similar ter'angreals in close proximity doesn't hold up, because in the other two cases, that of Egwene's dream ter'angreal and Mat foxhead medalian, the ter'angreals actually came into physical contact (or one entered into the other). We also have to consider the effects of the various ter'angreals before we can make blanket statements like they always or never react. In Egwene's case, both ter'angreal were designed the take the user into another dimension. The cumulative effects of that could be disasterous. In Mat's case, both ends worked to absorb the power. Maybe the fact that they were trying to absorb each other caused the damage. Hard to say, yet.<br /><br />Rob thew poser<br /><br />One thing you forget is Egwenes Dream Ter'angreal never enters the ring..it was by her clothes  as few feet away where she left them (had to be naked to enter the Accepted rings) as to why the Dream Ter'angreal; effected the Rings yet Nynaeve and Cadsuane Ter'angtrals didn't conflict may be one of many reason...first The dream/accepted ter'angreals both do something ith t'a'r BUT differently...(i'm guesinng the world the rings lead to is a part of TAR)<br />Now the rings let you enter in the flesh into another world the Dreamer Terangeal was created to aid AOL AS to learn how to enter T'A'R (Demmy sees one using it when Egwene Nyn and Elyane have one of their meetings and thinks to himself one of the girls is using a Stuidents Ter'angeal or somethin..) the key thing is the 2 Ter'angreals both deal with T'A'R but differently...<br /><br />Now Nynaeve and Cadsuane both have well, angeals, ithink ter'angeals that have the Foxhead effect and Detect where someone is channeling...the key thing is that they all seem to work JUST ABOUT the same way...the 2 wells both require that u channel into them and they both work the same way... and so one.. that means that since the Dream/accepted ter'angeals both deal with t'a'r but in WAY different ways theres a chance they will mess each other up..but 2 wells or dreamer ter'angeals or what ever u use that Work THE SAME way won't


created: 2003-01-06 15:03:06
subject: <b>additional question about gholams to ponder (spoiler)</b>
body:
There is not enough evidence, yet, to prove or disprove any of these theories.  Not even a little.  All of the theories are very good and thought out however.  I appreciate well thought out and well written theories.<br /><br />My addition:  No one mentioned the fact that the properties of both Mat's medallion and the gholam resemble cuendillar.  Since Egwene can now convert metal into cuendillar via saidar (the ability probably learned from a forsaken), who is to say that gholams were not made of another material (even flesh) which was converted via the True Power by a forsaken.  I think this idea is possible.<br /><br />I have to admit I have no idea why the gholam appears to need blood.  Too many possibilities.<br /><br />I'm not disagreeing with any of you or with any of the above theories.  After all nothing yet can be proved.  I'm just adding another not so far out addition to the above theory.<br /><br />RIP<br /><br />


created: 2003-01-06 15:25:58
subject: <b>Lots to respond to</b>
body:
Daemione-<br /><br />Birgitte remembers the gholam, so clearly they were a known threat in the AoL (ie. they weren't secret, killing all those who might report on them). I'm sure as soon as it was discovered that power based attacks cannot hurt it, others were tried.<br /><br />Agreed on the big box of stone thing, but that would ruin the plot! Probably. It should work though.<br /><br />Rob-<br /><br />As others have said, Egwene's ter'angreal was not touching the other one. And from the description of when it's been seen before (simply trying them in the same room), it doesn't seem likely they were touching that time either.<br /><br />Daymon-<br /><br />Your posts are SO hard to read, but I'll try.<br /><br />A gholam killing doesn't have to be a messy death, if it's current master gives it specific instructions to kill in a certain way.<br /><br />As for Aginor not making something so powerful without a way to control them, Jordan has described the man as almost a traditional mad scientist, if he thinks of something he'll try it, not even considering the consequences. Plus Graendal has thought this in LoC:<br /><br />&quot;She had had an umpleasant, in fact almost fatal, experience with one of Aginor's creations. The man had been brilliant in his way, but mad. None but a madman would have made the gholam.&quot;<br /><br />It's possible, if not probable in my view (espcially given the gholam's specific mention right after), that her experience was with a gholam, but even if it wasn't I doubt Graendal would think Aginor mad for creating the gholam if the Forsaken had a way of controlling them.


created: 2003-01-06 19:53:39
subject: <b>Just a minor point</b>
body:
DAYMON: &quot;Now there was 6 Gholam 3male/3 female (unless they breeded and well..then theres more =P) Now i doubt that Aginor would unleash these terrors apon the world without someway to control them.. So there must be a way for the Forsaken to Control them... &quot;<br /><br />I don't remember where the exact quote is from but I recall one of the other forsaken wondering why Aginor ever made the jumara, or worms, as they were very destructive and uncontrolable, so clearly Aginor made things without making sure they were controlable first.<br />OTOH, The forsaken must be aware of some way to control the gholam since he is doing their dirty work for them.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;I can express more emotion than laughter, anger and let's . . .&quot;<br /><br />Shooganooga<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-06 20:03:37
subject: <b>Strength of a <i>Gholam</i></b>
body:
- Daemione <br /><br />&quot;Given current One Power based methods of attack, I think the best way to incapacitate the thing would be to get someone fairly strong at weaving Earth and pull up a big stone box around the Gholam. Seal it off completely, and put a big &quot;Do Not Open&quot; sticker on it. Even if he doesn't starve to death, he'd be out of the picture for quite a while.&quot;<br /> <br />Exactly how strong <i>is</i> the <i>Gholam</i>?  I mean, even in an air-tight stone box, could the <i>Gholam</i> tunnel through stone with his bare hands?  What about solid steel?  Any material we can name (short of Heartstone)?  I don't know...<br /><br />The <i>Gholam</i> is an assassin, thus subtlety is probably in his mission profile, so he might not want to display his full powers (for this reason we might not have seen the extenet of his strength).  But in the interest of survival (and completion of his mission), the <i>Gholam</i> would unleash any and all abilities at his command.  Even if he was unable to frre himself - to what ends would the Shadow go to retreive the <i>Gholam</i>?<br /><br />Just a thought about the strength of the <i>Gholam</i>...<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Rob Moore<br />Bromly Falco<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /> Da'Rie <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /> King of WoT <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> The 15th Chosen <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-06 23:16:38
subject: <b>wow</b>
body:
honestly I'm just glad that people actually read it all. I was a bit concerned about the length of the theory.<br /><br />I suppose it is just as likley that the gollam is a construct as it is a Ter'angreal but I don't think that the two terms discribe such different things. Of course one is a thinking and moving creature created by the power and the other is more of a tool but both seem to be able to draw on the power to acomplish a task (the nym's ability to make plants grow) so perhaps i used the wrong term to describe the gollam, but I believe that the points still stand on that issue.<br /><br />I'd also like to point out that if you did seal the gollam in a stone box It would have to be one unbroken peice if there were any gaps even if they were sealed with the power the gohlam could probably still escape and it might work better if the box was then turned into cuedillar so the gollam could't simply tunnel out over time<br /><br />I would also realy like to Know more about the stasis boxes because if they do not exist seperatly in time then my point about starving the Gholam dosn't realy hold water but if they do then im good to go.<br /><br />well i already forgot the other things that i wanted to respond to so ill get to them later. I want to thank everyone for pointing out a few things i might want to consider.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /> ITS TIME TO TOSS THE DICE <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Seine sovya caba'donde ain dovienya<br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-07 09:36:04
subject: <b>.</b>
body:
&quot;Exactly how strong is the Gholam? I mean, even in an air-tight stone box, could the Gholam tunnel through stone with his bare hands? What about solid steel? Any material we can name (short of Heartstone)? I don't know...<br /><br />The Gholam is an assassin, thus subtlety is probably in his mission profile, so he might not want to display his full powers (for this reason we might not have seen the extent of his strength). But in the interest of survival (and completion of his mission), the Gholam would unleash any and all abilities at his command. Even if he was unable to frre himself - to what ends would the Shadow go to retreive the Gholam?&quot;<br /><br />Good thoughts, Bromly.  If I recall correctly, at the end of Path of Daggers, Rand protects himself from the renegade Asha'man attack by weaving a stone-like encasement around himself, that would keep out &quot;anything short of balefire&quot;.  I imagine that would be inclusive of fists &amp; kicking, no matter how strong the creature . . .   <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />  Of course, that's assuming the gholam can't melt himself down to a sub-atomic level to squeaze through the pores of the stone.  Who knows what the thing is capable of.  Hopefully the thing has a dependency on blood, and would expire from it's lack before the Shadow figured out what happened &amp; frees the thing, or he manages to get out.<br /><br />Of course, someone could always lob the stone encased gholam into a stedding to see what happens . . . .   Although I'm not sure the Ogier would be very impressed.<br /><br />And Daymon, I agree with Three in a Boat, your post was very difficult to read - I don't know where a quote starts &amp; your response begins.  And a spell-check wouldn't hurt . . .    <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Anyway, time to go to Borders . . . .


created: 2003-01-07 14:15:28
subject: <b>details, details</b>
body:
Absolutely EXCELLENT theory--well constructed, logical, and not hard to read at all. My only question is with regards to this statement: <br /><br />&quot;This reaction could explain how a Ter'angreal created by the True Power (the Gholam) and one created by the One Power, (the medallion) could affect one another in a violent manner.&quot;<br /><br />In fact, the physical damage seemed entirely one-sided.  The gholam got to know what bacon feels like, but all that happened to the medallion was it became &quot;cool...Just the cool of silver.&quot; Hmmmm...SILVER.<br /><br />What makes silver so special? Recall that it's been traditionally used to kill off werewolves and the like--in other words, scary and nigh-invulnerable creatures of the night. Cooling may have been silver's reaction to encountering the distinct surface of the gholam's skin, just as sizzling was the reaction of its flesh to the medallion. If, in fact, the only reason the gholam got fried was because of the properties of silver, then that might shoot your ter'angeral theory in the foot. <br /><br />*scratches head* In any case, while the gholam is murderously effective, I vote for Mat smooshing it into little gholamettes with a gunpowder-propelled projectile. <br /><br />Great theory, keep 'em coming!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/clap.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lan.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/clap.gif" border="0" /><br />Nynaeve and Lan!<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-07 21:05:19
subject: <b>How to kill a gholam</b>
body:
Ok, if there was a gholam after me and I was an Asha'man type guy, then I'd try all these things and i think at least one would work:<br /><br />1. Use Earth to weave a big metal bubble around him then stop weaving... trapped mwaha, then use air to lift up that bubble and go and bury it under a mountain real good.<br /><br />2. Weave a Travelling Gateway and jump through, but leave it open. When he steps into it, it dissolves, but hopefully not until hes at least halfway through so it chops him... mwahaha again...<br /><br />3. (This ones a bit evil) Use the power to slice and dice the nearby herd of buffalos, and get all their blood, which I would deposit on the gholam. Then hes my best buddy cos I fed him real good.<br /><br />4. Run into Far Madding. Far Madding is the same sort of thing to the foxhead, so hopefully that gholam would get a bit of anguish and death from going there (though i dunno if the same would happen in a Stedding, seeing as its not actually a ter'angreal)<br /><br />6. Use Earth to chop out the ground from under him and quicly use Water to put a big deep pool there. Then weave super metal strong sides to the pool and a roof as well so hes stuck..... can those guys drown?? I sure hope so...<br /><br />7. Last ditch effort after hes escaped all my other schemes:<br />Whip out my deadly balefiring heronsword and slice his head off! He can't reattach it can he? I mean, hes pretty bendy, but one its off, its off right?<br /><br />Yeah. So don't u Gholam's go messin with me.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> &lt;-- My balefire heronsword. Don't touch.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-08 13:18:37
subject: <b>Addative + Subtractive</b>
body:
The notion of the One power and True power being opposing balances - smarts of Goodkind magic to me - yucky sword of truth stuff.<br /><br />Perhaps Jordan intends the TP to be a balance to the OP, but I find it more likely that the TP is a twisted/hazardous form of the OP designed especially by the DO to snair channelers and corrupt them, and make them utterly dependant upon him.<br /><br />The OP must be something like Crack - it's real addictive, but most people can control their use with the exercise of a bit of self-control.  The TP is like Cranked up Crack that the DO only gives to junkies he know won't be able to control themselves.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/egwene.gif" border="0" /> Feet spread to maintain balance on a windy deck <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-10 15:25:19
subject: <b>Alternate Gholam possibility</b>
body:
This theory is quite interesting, and one previous comment about it really got me thinking.  The mention of the idea that entering a Stedding might kill a Gholam made me think that perhaps the Gholam is neither a construct made with the (One|True) Power nor a Ter'Angreal, but essentially a tied-off weave of the TP.  It's possible that Aginor might have taken a human victim, done some trickery with the TP, and tied off the weave.  As the TP flows directly from the Dark One, it might mean that the DO himself would be the one maintaining the weave.<br /><br />In any case, this would mean that the TP would be constantly used to sustain the Gholam.  Since it's the TP, nobody can sense it, and since it's an active flow the foxhead (or a Stedding) would interfere with it.  We know how the foxhead reacts to the One Power, but are there any confirmed cases of it interacting with flows of the True Power?<br /><br />I'm sure someone will poke this idea full of holes, but it's at least a different idea. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Take a rabite and a man...&quot;<br />&quot;I lamented that I had no shoes,<br />until I met the man who sold them.&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-10 17:27:07
subject: <b>Gholam from Aelfinn/Eelfin Land?</b>
body:
Seeing as Mat obtained his medallion from The Aelfinn/Eelfin people perhaps the gholam has something to do with Aelfinn land?  Perhaps the medallion is made from something that would poison the Aelfinn/Eelfinn.... Hence the reason you can't take music, or iron, or (what's that other thing) into the doorways?  Just a thought.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Bonded to balefire78<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Danea Sedai of the Green Ajah<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-11 07:24:05
subject: <b>Good theory, but...</b>
body:
...I do not think that the True Power is the opposite of the One power. I do more believe that their excists three different powers representing one force each:<br /> An unnamed power from the Creator, representing Good.<br /> <br /> Saidin/Saidar, power used by humans, half good, half evil, representing Balance.<br /> <br /> The True Power, from the Dark One, representing Evil.<br /><br />Otherwise I think you might be right about the gholam...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i><font face="sylfaen">&quot;Life? It's just something that happens. It isn't really much we can do about it.&quot;<br /><br />-Gog<br /><br />http://myrmarker.blogspot.com/</font></i></font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-14 23:45:25
subject: <b>.</b>
body:
open a skimming gateway, make the gholam go through, and through some trickery push him off, then watch him get smaller, and smaller, and smaller, and smaller. Most likely however, this would not work. The damn thing would probably melt away the gateway. Take him the the Ways then, since I think they are the same place, push him off to the same effect, and hope machhin chin doesn't get him to create something truly freaky, of the likes of Fain.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Junius Maltby Lives!</font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-26 22:03:30
subject: <b>ive gotta question</b>
body:
wheres the admins comments? maybe this has been asked before, but im too lazy so i just post my own comments to look @ the already posted comments...if that made any sense, good for you.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Press START</font><p></p>


created: 2003-04-11 18:46:35
subject: <b>my gholam theory</b>
body:
i will start my thoery with my own brand of psycology(if i even spelled it right). the minute i read th gholam charater i immediatly thought of how out of place it was with the sort of shadow spawn that usually threatened the main chars. most of them montsers visualy frightening as well as capable. the only shadowwalkers that are even close are grey men...but even they arent as outlandish and a fully grown man who can squeeze through a crack in anything.lol. in this age the common man is even afraid to think of the dark one or even aes sedai.let alone dream up something so evil as this.  even the chosen shudder at thing too evil.so i began to think, these sort of things could not have been imagined and trained into any grown man, no matter how devoted the dark friend, no matter how much of the true power used. operating on the premise that a gholam is a man changed, the amount of changing needed,  judging by the reactions to healing,delving, bonding and even oath taking, could be survived by no man. and if he did i doubt he would be mentaly fit for training.<br />where is the one place the things a gholam does could be taken par for course? Tel'Aran'Rhoid. my theory is the gholam are people whos spirits were purposefully manipulated in the dream world, including training and the complications with the power, then extracted nearly the same way birgette was. what do you think?


created: 2003-06-01 20:20:28
subject: <b>Some comments</b>
body:
I agree the One Power and the True Power do not mix. Consider the last scene of aCoS in Shadar Logoth: Rand's and Moridin's balefires cross, and do indeed create something of a spark. Moridin's was True Power, as Rand says about a page later that he hadn't felt the One Power.<br /><br />Now we come to the problem: the gholam absorbs the One Power, he doesn't react to it. Therefore the gholam cannot be a True Power construct, though he could I suppose have been made with it if he has NO True Power left in him now. But that would appear to contradict the fact that he reacts to the foxhead medallion if the reaction is indeed a True Power / One Power antithesis (I'll come to this).<br /><br />A further possible problem with the gholam being a True Power product is that he was made by Aginor. The True Power is only available as a special favour and that may not have been forthcoming - also, it is very addictive, and there is no hint either in tEotW or the BWB that Aginor either had the True Power available to him (he desparately needed the One Power in the Eye, rather than calling on the True Power), or was addicted to it (i.e. the saa). As a general rule, the Forsaken did not believe using the True Power was worth the consequences (I can't remember where this came up, though it was when one of the other Forsaken was musing on the saa after seeing Moridin, so probably PoD or WH somewhere), though as I have argued, I don't believe it was an option for Aginor anyway. It may further be of note that making the gholam sounds like something that would take a lot of whatever Power it was, and per the BWB Aginor was the second strongest male in the One Power after Ishamael.<br /><br />My conclusion to this is that the gholam (from my second paragraph) is definitely not a True Power construct, and (from my third) was probably not made with the True Power. Therefore he would have been made with the One Power.<br /><br />I think it most likely that both the gholam and the foxhead medallion are One Power wells (like Cadsuane's and Nynaeve's ter'angreals, though with much more room in them). Therefore I agree with the Theory that he is a human ter'angreal construct. I also like the idea of him being defeated with indirect channelling - we've already seen this work on Mat (on the way to Ebou Dar).<br /><br />Now we come to the final issue: why does the gholam react to the medallion? It is possible that it is a general reaction of similar ter'angreal, as in Egwene's Accepted test (this is incidentally a pointer that the world of the Accepted test ter'angreal is Tel'an'rhiod, though that's a theory for a different day). But this doesn't explain one fact: it is only the gholam that suffers ill effects of touching the medallion - the medallion and Mat do not. Though come to think of it, there is no hint that the ring ter'angreal suffered when Egwene was being tested for Accepted. I haven't a solution to the question at the start of this paragraph, but I thought I'd set my thoughts down in case they spark something off for someone else.


created: 2003-11-17 17:03:39
subject: <b>gholam and worms</b>
body:
in one of the later books, i can't remember what one, one of the forsaken says that in the waste they have stunted gholam. he also says that these stunted gholam are called worms by the borderlanders. i was wondering what people think of this as far as the creation of the gholam.


created: 2004-07-01 22:28:18
subject: <b>good but</b>
body:
this is a generally good theory. just one thing. in your theory, you said <br /><br />       &quot;Given this, we know that it is possible to &#8216;realign the matrices' of a human&quot;<br /><br /> when will people learn! aligning the matrix/matrices has nothing to do with *angreal. in LoC, egwene says tha moghedien told her, nynaeve,and elayne that aligning the matrix was to metals stronger<br /><br />good theory, though<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perrin.gif" border="0" /> + <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/berelain.gif" border="0" /> = me <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /> chris the great <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/seanchan.gif" border="0" /> master of the known universe <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/seanchan.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" /> and military dictator of orions belt <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lan.gif" border="0" /> gaidin chris <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lan.gif" border="0" /><br />bonded to<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/leia.gif" border="0" /> princess leia sedai <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/leia.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Was'up</font><p></p>


created: 2004-11-22 21:24:29
subject: <b>Another way to kill it</b>
body:
All right. He's pretty much said that the only ways to kill it are to starve it, blast it with gunpowder or hit it with indirect channeling. Now what about the True Power? Assuming this theory is correct, then wouldn't it make sense that the Power that created to gholam could kill it also? I know that there is very little possibility that any of the Forsaken are gonna channel; the True Power at it, but say the gholam pisses off Moridin and he gets an idea to teach it a lesson. It might just collapse into a pile of ter'angreal goo.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Rest in Peace, RJ</font><p></p>


created: 2005-07-11 03:09:21
subject: <b>Double Negative.</b>
body:
Referring to the pain caused by the medallion:<br /><br />The medallion is inanimate. As such, we don't know if it is in pain, stressed, or damaged. <br /><br />When the Gholam comes into contact though, he feels like he is burning. <br /><br />Think about the two of them, and the functions built in.<br /><br />Medallion: Stops the power, disrupts it before it can affect the wearer. Occam Says: Made with One Power.<br /><br />Gholam: Invulnerable to the power. Disrupts it before it can affect the Gholam. Occam Says: Made with One Power.<br /><br />So, you have a construct of the power that disrupts and dismantles constructs of the power, meeting a construct of the power that disrupts and dismantles constructs of the power.<br /><br />I'd say they're just working normally on each other, but the medallion doesn't feel pain like the Gholam does. I'd bet that in order for Mat to destroy the Gholam, he'll lose the medallion, as they'll both be destroyed.<br /><br />


created: 2006-03-20 06:02:40
subject: <b>The way the Gholam dies...</b>
body:
Just wanted to agree with two comments I've read here.<br /><br />I sort of agree and thank the person who pointed out the feel of &quot;silver&quot; that the medallion makes Mat think of. I remember when reading the book again I noticed that and felt it was very significant - yes, it is a VERY common myth that silver can kill evil things like werewolves and vampires. I've noticed that RJ likes using parallels in his writing and think that this might be one of them.<br /><br />On the gholam being a True Power construct/ter'angreal... that is ALSO a very appealing idea. I never thought about that before seeing it mentioned here and well, bravo to you who thought of it and wrote it down. I find it astounding and really interesting.<br /><br />Have to say I don't fully believe any of the theories cause RJ does tend to surprise us on things like this. But at the same time the arguments for and against this theory are all compelling... I find myself agreeing with everything!<br /><br />So, as far as I can tell there are three main ways that people have mentioned might kill the gholam. Here they are as I understand it:<br /><br />1) Isolate him and starve him - don't really agree with this; it's possible but not very much like RJ's style so I don't think it'll happen. Not to mention that sealing it in a box probably won't stop it from digging its way out. Its strength is remarked upon and I think anything short of cuendillar will hold it. But, remember, we see that Egwene's cuendillar factory doesn't produce it that fast! It isn't possible to build a prison of heartstone fast enough!<br /><br />2) This is quite likely...<br />2a) Mat's medallion is the key and he uses it in a tussle with the gholam and manages to make the gholam choke on it (LoL <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" />). This method and the next sort of coincide and hence they are both stated as the either/or of a single method.<br />2b) Aludra's fireworks help blow the gholam up using silver as ammo - OR......... maybe they construct a cannonball of silver using the medallion at its heart or whatever. Here Elayne might come in handy as - if she discovers the properties of the foxhead and is able to reproduce it, she just may be able to create ammo for Mat to kill the gholam with, in conjunction with Aludra's fireworks. Yes, we'll blow the gholam to SMITHEREENS using a shrapnel grenade (made with foxhead material tidbits) launched at it with Aludra's help! Yee-Haw!!!!<br /><br />Finally, in closing - people, I'm very curious but tell me, is the Aelfinn prophesy about Mat's &quot;losing half the light of the world to save the other half&quot; related to killing the gholam? Is it possible that in killing the gholam Mat loses an eye (as someone mentioned in another post as an explanation for &quot;half the light&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />? Or is it possible that &quot;half the light&quot; has something to do with the fact that the medallion CANNOT be reproduced and hence is &quot;half the light&quot; in some strange manner and will be consumed by destroying the gholam? Is losing the foxhead the sacrifice that Mat will make?<br /><br />I donno the final answers but I loved reading all the possiblilities about them! Thanks for all the great stuff!!!<br /><br />Cheers <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />


created: 2006-04-17 03:27:55
subject: <b>You Ready for this?</b>
body:
OK here is the real way to kill a gholam and it should have been done in the AOL.<br /><br />Dun da da dun.  A DEATHGATE.<br /><br />2 reasons why this will work. Along with another possible method.<br /><br />1)  KoD pg 413 Vows----- Rand: &quot;It doesn't matter where they went,&quot; ... &quot;Shadowspawn cant survive passing through a gateway&quot;<br /><br />And for the sake of arguement lets say this is a special shadowspawn who can somehow survive passing through a gateway. Then comes method 2.<br /><br />2) A deathgate or any gateway at all.  We know that a gholam will not make the gateway wink out before it walks into it because mat has gone through a couple of them while wearing his medallion in his own time.<br /><br />THEREFORE If the gholam's target were to make a gateway and lure the gholam through it, said channeler could drop the weave and effectively cut the gholam in half.  Simmilar to how Sammael did to the Shaido with their &quot;channeling boxes&quot;<br /><br /><br />Alternate method.  Open a gateway as if to skim and either lure the gholam onto your platform (read: not gonna happen) OR make the gateway and shove the gholam into it with indirect channeling.  Or better yet have 4 channelers, make a gateway box if you will and close it on the gholam.  This would not kill it but he would fall forever and probably starve as mentioned in earlier posts.


created: 2006-05-04 18:30:37
subject: <b>only one thing wrong</b>
body:
ordinary weapons can't touch the Gholam...<br /><br />Knives didn't (WH?)<br /><br />They can go through little holes, under doors etc. <br /><br />probably can't blow him up...<br /><br />good otherwise...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">At the Citadel, Charlie Company rules<br /><br />RJ went to my school. Yay.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-06 17:31:48
subject: <b>Nice</b>
body:
I like it, even if it is a bit unlikely. It would also fit in with Elaida's Fortelling of Sisters walking on the Black Tower's grounds. Just wanted to say I liked this theory.


created: 2003-01-06 17:44:54
subject: <b>very Interesting</b>
body:
I love your theory. Having the borderland army try to attack the BT could force Rand to finaly take some action and it will also unite the ashaman and teach them the truth about peoples atitude. It coud also help them unite with the WT since the AS seem to be the onlyones that are starting to openup to the Ashaman.<br /><br />But an actual war would be a desaster.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Everything that has a begining has an end. And we wake from our dream.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-06 17:46:06
subject: <b>Unlikely</b>
body:
To Jaric Mondoran: sisters have already walked the BT's grounds- Toveine &amp; the other bonded sisters.<br /><br />To Mahiro: The Borderland rulers are very concerned about the WT not discovering their plans. I don't think the rulers would care if they were going after the BT. They're also smart enough &amp; practical enough to know that 200,000 soldiers without help from channellers couldn't do squat about the Asha'man. They would likely be actively seeking AS help.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Olu Thales<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-06 18:42:35
subject: <b>Love the theory, another idea..</b>
body:
Just thought I would say this is a really good theory. Another possibility, though, is that the Borderlanders are concerned with the Seanchan threat and plan to do something about it. It doesn't answer the Andor connection, but it might explain why they would be happy to have Aes Sedai along. Just an idea.


created: 2003-01-06 19:09:49
subject: <b>Don't worry, no spoilers, but...</b>
body:
it's a pity you didn't wait for CoT before submitting this theory.<br /><br />I do wonder why you use the fact that the Borderlanders will not go against Rand (whether they believe him the Dragon Reborn or not) as reasons for that not being possible for some, such as Bashere, yet not for the Black Tower. Only a deaf fool could have missed that the Black Tower is Rand's doing and, even if these Borderlanders do feel they can deal with them, they can hardly think Rand will sit back and let it happen, they'd have to face his forces just as they would if they were after Bashere (or whatever else they could do against Rand). I don't see how they could possibly know of the Black Tower factions, especially not when they set out on this campaign.<br /><br />I support the theory though, just not all of the reasons which got to the main point.


created: 2003-01-06 19:46:27
subject: <b>nice effort</b>
body:
It was a nice effort, but I find your theory laughable. I'm sure everyone around Randland has heard about the slaughter at Dumai's wells. 13 Aes Sedai would hardly help. Any army going to the BT would get butchered.


created: 2003-01-06 20:07:01
subject: <b>Motive???</b>
body:
maybe i havent read the theory properly, but why would they want to attack him in the first place?<br />The BT poses no threat to them and Lan would whip their topknots off if they did attack the BT


created: 2003-01-06 20:12:58
subject: <b>The Black Tower</b>
body:
represents a threat to the entire world. Men. Channeling. Doomed to go mad and tear the world apart again.<br /><br />Not anymore, but few people know that and it certainly wasn't cleansed when we last saw the Borderlanders anyway.<br /><br />Some of these replies would be very different if the people had read CoT. Well, not very different, people could still have the same view, but they wouldn't be so dismissive.


created: 2003-01-06 21:09:01
subject: <b>don't think so...</b>
body:
I like the theory but I can think of a few reasons why it might not be true. Mainly It seems the Borderlanders are actually looking for rand. I think the point raised earlier that they should be aware they are going to be wiped out if they try is a good one. Finally why would all the rulers come. You would think Aglema should be enough leadership to handle it. <br /><br />Nah they want to meet Rand and if he can prove himself openly declare for him and try to force the rest of the world to fall into line.<br /><br />Still I reckon the borderlanders and the BT will actually come into confrontation. Taim has no idea of Elaynes plans and their is no way telling what that arrogant bastard would try...


created: 2003-01-06 21:36:10
subject: <b>re: the target of the borderland armies.</b>
body:
This is the conclusion i came to as well.<br /><br />Most of the negative comments against this theory don't make any sense. <br /><br />First, the borderlanders probably have no idea how many men who can channel there are. After all Elaida only thought there was 2 or 3 men who can channel after the borderlanders left their kindgoms.  <br /><br />Second, the rulers might still attack the BT even knowing they would all be killed if they thought they could do enough damage.<br /><br />I think this theory might be incomplete though.  There is too much contradictory  information to be certain though.  For example, after the ceremony they say they say they must find this al'thor and do what must be done.  This leads me to believe they are going to kill rand, but if that was so why mention the fact that al'thor will have their heads on pikes for what they are going to do?


created: 2003-01-06 22:09:52
subject: <b>The motive &amp; my take...</b>
body:
To: albo88 <br /><br />The proposed motive for the attack on the Black Tower is the fear of men able to channel.  This theory put forward that the Borderlanders are coming south as an execution squad for the Asha'man - similar to the party the White Tower sent.<br /><br />While I disagree with the theory, following a more mundane trail of thought with the rulers of the Borderlands nations coming south to determine the character of Rand and then (assuming they accept him) swear fealty to him.  The armies are along to protect the rulers from bandits, small bands of Aiel, and anything else that happens along (a wise precaution in times such as these).<br /><br />The rulers would want to avoid White Tower notice because of Elaida's decree (actually Alviarin makes Elaida sign the decree).  I quote from Chapter 25 of Path of Daggers:<br />&quot;The Dragon Reborn is granted the protection of the Tower, but whosoever attempts to approach him save through the White Tower lies attainted of treason against the Light, and anathema is pronounced against them now and forever. The world may rest easily knowing that the White Tower will safely guide the Dragon Reborn to the Last Battle and the inevitable triumph.&quot;<br /><br />Treason against the Light &amp; anathema!  Not exactly the best things to have the White Tower declare upon you.  Suitable reason to avoid Elaida's notice in this endeavor.  <br /><br />Why might the thirteen Aes Sedai be useful?  Perhaps the Borderlanders are thinking as the Aes Sedai thought.  Even a King would not have so many Aes Sedai sent to his court at one time.  They might believe that Rand will be honored.<br /><br />Tomorrow may provide all the answers to this question... or not...<br /><br />One other thing - A minor point from the theory:<br /><br />&quot;Neither are the borderland armies going after the Aiel. In Glimmers, Lord Ituralde had a POV where he was discussing the Aiel war. He is one of the acknowledged four Great Captains. He thought it readily apparent that the Aiel were not defeated. He knew that they chose to withdraw and that <b>no one, not even Hawkwing has ever defeated them in battle</b>. In the Aiel War, 120,000 men could not defeat 4 clans. As one of the Great Captains and a student of military history, he should very well know that 200,000 men have no chance against 11 clans. To go after them would also require discussion since they follow Rand of whether or not Rand is the Dragon Reborn. The Aiel are not their target.&quot;<br /><br />Actually, the Aiel have been defeated in battle.  It might be more accurate to say that no one has ever defeated the Aiel on a large scale.  I quote from Chapter 37 of The Shadow Rising - I've omitted text for time's sake:<br />&quot;'How do Aiel fight, Lan?' <br />(Lan describes a common Aiel tactic to Rand) <br />'How do you beat that?' Rand asked.<br />(Lan describes a counter-tactic)<br />(Aviendha makes some comments about asking Aiel about fighting Aiel then finishes with) 'His way will not work.'<br />'It has worked well enough with Bordermen from time to time.' Rhuarc...&quot;<br /><br />Lan knows how to defeat Aiel in battle, and Rhuarac says that it has worked in the Borderlands occasionally.  Anyway, the Aiel have been defeated in battle by non-Aiel.  Not that I'm saying the Borderlanders are planning to attack the Aiel, but just to make a correction.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Rob Moore<br />Bromly Falco<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /> Da'Rie <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /> King of WoT <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> The 15th Chosen <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-06 23:00:48
subject: <b>Seeking Rands attention</b>
body:
I think that all the 4 rulers of the borderlands have brought such large armies south just to get Rands attention. Rand has made himself known to just about all other countries except the borderlands. The borderlanders have been fighting back the shadow for far too long, and with the Dragon Reborn (the one that is supposed to rescue the world from shadow) not showing himself and his plans to them is a bit of a slap in the face. With the borderlands now weakly manned, they might get their message across to Rand as to where the fight is going to be happening.<br /><br />I don't think they have any other hidden agenda's apart from this.....but who can really say for sure.....RAFO I guess.


created: 2003-01-07 01:33:56
subject: <b>what about masema?</b>
body:
Just a little comment...Why wouldn't the borderlanders be going after Masema?  After all, a fellow borderlander with a HUGE army of &quot;Dragonsworn&quot;?  After tGH, Hurin had time to go back to Agelmar and tell of both Rand, AND Masema.  At least of Masema's peculiar way of acting towards Rand.  Couldn't they be going down to stop him from connecting the &quot;Dragonsworn&quot; with &quot;Sheinaran&quot;, or &quot;Borderlander&quot;?


created: 2003-01-07 03:11:34
subject: <b>war on the BT is just silly</b>
body:
no group of nation leaders would even consider attacking the BT without having SOME sort of intelligence on the place before committing that many soldiers and more importantly, the nation leaders themselves to the battle... any intelligence they got would tell them that there are more than 2 or 3 male channelers there and the ashaman's deeds at Dumai's Well is too well known for them not to know anything of it... they would know that fighting them on their own ground would be just plain dumb...<br /><br />I think the most convincing reason that it isn't the BT that the Borderland leaders are there for is the fact that an army of Borderlanders could be almost forgiven by whoever's land they stop on... but why would the assault on the BT be led by the leaders of the Borderland nations? or for that matter, why would it be done without any support from the Southern nations? If these male channelers scare the poop outta them, they should assume the same for the rulers in the South... in the end, it just doesn't seem to make sense...<br /><br />I feel that only meeting with the Dragon Reborn and figuring out what he's about would be reason enough for all the leaders of the Borderlands to abandon their capitals and come covertly south... and i think that bromley falco's quote of Elaida's proclamation (even if forced by alviarin) is more than reason enough for it to be done secretly...<br />fighting masema also seems highly unlikely since it also fails the question of why the leaders of the borderlands must actually be there and why would any such blood ritual take place just to take on masema's dragonsworn... for a ritual that is kept for only the most dire situations, it would seem inappropriate in that situation...


created: 2003-01-07 03:17:13
subject: <b>A few comments</b>
body:
First off, thanks for the comments everyone.<br /><br />My belief is that the borderlanders are not going after the Seanchan.  As Nevman pointed out on wheeloftime.com, they are going the wrong direction if they wanted to go fight the Sheanchan.  Plus, they still had lied to Elayne.  Why lie to her in that case?  <br /><br />One of the themes in the series is that not everyone knows all there is to know.  Only a few believe that Saidin is clean.  Even people who were there like Cadsuane aren't certain it is clean.  As far as the vast majority are concerned, Saidin is still Tainted.  This is even reflected in the book jacket text.<br /><br />Nor do people know the exact numbers of male channelers.  As a few people pointed out, most think there are only a few dozen.  Elaida thought there were at most 10.  <br /><br />Also along that theme of not knowing everything...  in several places in the series, it was commented in rumors that Rand was gathering the men TO HIM.  That would reasonably explain why the borderlanders need to seek Rand out.  They probably think that the channelers are with Rand.  Rand certainly did always seem to have a number of them with him in Cairhien, Tear, and Illian.<br /><br />I don't think they are going after the Prophet.  Certainly not with 200,000 men.  Masema has what 10,000 ill trained, undisciplined, ill equiped men?  Masema is also too far south of them.<br /><br />Again, thanks for the comments,<br />mahiro<br /><br /><br />


created: 2003-01-07 11:21:57
subject: <b>The short term plans...</b>
body:
First off, this theory's got loads of good points and was well worth being made, but I don't agree that the target of the armies is the BT.<br /><br />The facts as I see them are:<br />They must all have a supremely important reason for leaving the border basically undefended, this could be that the risk of leaving must be outweighed by the risk of not acting as they are now doing.<br /><br />They are attempting to stay hidden to avoid rumours from reaching their target before they do, this implies that they want to avoid their target from getting the wrong impression for as long as possible.<br /><br />The rulers presence with the armies will tell their target that the entire borderlands support their message, which obviously gives it extra weight.<br /><br />The presence of the vast armies (200,000 soldiers) enables the rulers to act quickly with a great force without having to send messages back to the borderlands (none of the AS with them seem to know how to Travel). This also suggests that they don't think their task will be finished by delivering the message.<br /><br />The rulers know that the EoTW has been found and used, which indicates that a great need has been met. They know that the Horn has been found and probably sounded. They know about the multiple DR claims in recent years. I would guess that by these indications they would believe that TG is coming.<br /><br />They have fought to defend the world against the DO and ShadowSpawn for 3000 yrs and know that it's not pleasant and can be destructive (e.g. Malkier was wiped out) so they would not be sqeamish about working with the DR, knowing that he is a destructive saviour.<br /><br />They will be aware of the prophecies regarding TG and must believe that the DR has to be there for the DO to be defeated.<br /><br />Some of them know Rand and all of them must know that he's declared himself the DR without dispute from other claimants.<br /><br />I believe that the only thing that would drag them away from the border would be to ensure that the DR reaches TG.<br /><br />So they must be going to meet Rand to confirm to themselves that he is the DR. They will want to ensure that his plans will allow him to survive till TG. If his plans don't satisfy them I would guess that they would try to guide him so that he doesn't ruin the Light's chances of victory.<br /><br />They may well end up fighting against the Seanchan, the Dragon Sworn, Taim's Asha'man, the White Tower, the Shaido, etc, but I don't think any of these are their targets.<br /><br />I'm not sure why they may have lied to Elayne, but they probably don't know about her's and Rand's relationship.<br /><br />I've read the first 9 books so I know it won't work out as easily as this, there'll be DFs among them and some of them will want to control Rand too much and inevitably wind him up so that he doesn't trust them etc. But I'll certainly be RAFOing for the next 3 books or however many it takes. ****I'm getting COT tonight !!! Praise the Light !!!!****


created: 2003-01-07 12:25:45
subject: <b>could it be..</b>
body:
That The see Rand as the DR ...or the biggest threat a False Dragon of the third age...he controls 3 countrys and has aiels on the side...maybe....just maybe ..First they want to Decide if hew is the DR or just a False Dragon.<br /><br />Then if he is then make a plea with the weight of all the Borderlands for men to defend the Blight. <br /><br />If they decide he's a False dragon..Have 13 sisters still him while the 200,000 men hold off what forces rand will have when he meets them..


created: 2003-01-07 13:14:46
subject: <b>Not gonna happen</b>
body:
The Borederlanders would still have to move east past Caemlyn to get to the Black Tower and I think Elayne would realize that they weren't intent on going after Rand since she told them he was south.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sir Jim<br />Lord of Minutia&#8482;<br />King of WoT MB Posts&#8482;<br /><br />Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-07 17:06:21
subject: <b>The Boderlanders</b>
body:
are 50 miles to the north of Caemlyn, so they would not have to march past the capital. I can't actually remember where the BT is exactly, but somewhere not far to the north east of Caemlyn I believe. So if the Borderlanders did intend to attack the BT, they could pretend to be marching on Caemlyn, but in fact be aiming at the Asha'man.<br /><br />Plus I can see a reason that they would need to stay where they are for a while, which they have, but it's a CoT spoiler so you'll just have to believe me that there is a possible reason.


created: 2003-01-07 17:57:22
subject: <b>Target: Black Tower</b>
body:
They might be going after the black tower, only one problem I see. If they AM start losing too mnay men, won't they just Travel away? Plus the fact that that many AM could kill a huge number of ordinary soldier easily.


created: 2003-01-07 18:52:24
subject: <b>Info from CoT....</b>
body:
Some spoilers....<br /><br /><br /><br /><br />Elayne has planned that the Borderlanders are to go near Caemlyn.  The Black Tower is a few miles from Caemlyn.  Elayne wants to send them on the Lugard Road that does not take them near the Tower.  She specifically states that she plans not to have them near the Asha'man.  Forshadowing perhaps.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />  The best laid plans...<br /><br />The borderlanders are going slow...  very slow.  IIRC in LoC, Gareth Bryne said he would do something similar when nearing his target with an army.  Rest them and then move them slow to conserve strength...  Just a thought.<br /><br /><br />Thanks for the comments,<br />mahiro<br /><br /><br /><br />


created: 2003-01-07 22:14:21
subject: <b>That...</b>
body:
...isn't even the CoT thing I'm talking about, you might not be up to it yet. When you are, we can discuss it.


created: 2003-01-08 00:32:36
subject: <b>Of Queens and Shielding...</b>
body:
The Borderland rulers said they needed to remind Rand of the importance of the Borderland nations. Assume that was the truth. I agree with the notion that Ran's ignoring the Borderlands is a slap in the royal faces.<br />Go after the Black Tower? I don't think so. Surely, these rulers would intelligently guess that their armies wouldn't do squat against a group of determined male channelers (to be a ruler of a Borderland nation, you MUST not be a fool--fools are quickly slain in the Blight, hence the pickiness of Queen Tenobia). Not with 13 Aes Sedai. At least 6 Aes Sedai are needed to capture a male channeler. With particularly strong male channelers you need between 9 and 13. Think back to Ch. 51 (The Taking) of the Lord of Chaos. Coiren, Galina and Katerine with their dozen &quot;serving girls&quot; shielded Rand. Threafter, Galina thought 6 Aes Sedai sufficient to hold Rand's shield, even three in a pinch.<br />In addition, Aes Sedai could link only up to 13 sisters without a male channeler. So, I believe these Borderland rulers intend to take Rand and &quot;remind&quot; him of the Blightborder's importance through the 13 Aes Sedai. And Elayne is a way to reach Rand al'Thor. When has the definition of &quot;reminding&quot; meant a gentle sitting and talking over tea to medieval monarchs?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Gaeran Amaconde<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />Grand Historian at the Court of the Sun<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />One of Those Chosen to Bring the Light<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" />Master of Graendal's Revels<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" />&quot;If sometimes our dreams come true, what of our nightmares?&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-08 14:16:00
subject: <b>I don't buy it</b>
body:
I like this theory. It was well thought out. But this long after Dumai's Wells, I can't beleive the rulers wouldn't have heard about that battle, and know that the Ashaman would be nearly invincible to a non-channeling army. Granted, I'm sure they don't know that sadin was cleaned, but it is a suicide mission.<br /><br />Plus, I don;t think the rulers themselves would goif their intentions weere any other than to present themsleves to Rand and call him to task for ignoring the boarderlands<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Pronounced: &quot;Rand was here&quot;<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shakefist.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-08 15:31:23
subject: <b>A Tangent</b>
body:
I wonder if this has anything to do with Lan.  120,000 soldiers might convince him, by their way of thinking.  Taking Lan with them might anger Rand or the White Tower.  <br /><br />Having brought this up, I believe they are trying to determine if Rand is the Dragon Reborn.  But I wanted to add this for completeness.<br />


created: 2003-01-09 09:11:52
subject: <b>Lan</b>
body:
Talking Lan to return to the borderlands and raise the banner of the crane would be something most borderlanders would rally around, as seen in New Spring. But it's not Rand or the white tower the borderlanders would have to fear, it's Nyneave. 200,000 soldiers may not be enough!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Pronounced: &quot;Rand was here&quot;<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shakefist.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-09 12:44:21
subject: <b>Sheer Stupidity</b>
body:
To attack the Black Tower would mean that you would face a few hundred, military trained, Asha'man - not counting the great amount of Soldiers and Dedicated. At the end of Lord of Chaos we see how a few dozen asha'man annihilated thousands with ease. And there is no doubt that news of that battle must have reached the Borderlands. Also - how much can 13 Aes Sedai help? They would not stand a chance - of course they do not know of the attack already made upon the tower. Even though I liked the theory - it certainly brought up many things I hadn't thought of - but I find that I can't really agree with it. The whole idea seems too simple and basically too stupid.


created: 2003-01-09 17:29:53
subject: <b>Don't buy it.</b>
body:
I've held the point before that the Pattern is bringing what is needed into place. As some characters have commented, why would the rulers bring so many out of the Borderlands. I've suspected that the Pattern is guiding a massive army, experienced in fighting Shadowspawn, to where it will be needed when the Last Battle breaks out.<br /><br />This does hinge on my pet theory that the Shadow will gateway Trollocs somewhere in the Westlands instead of boiling out of the Blight into the Borderlands. Rand has commented several times on why they don't just do that.<br /><br />Rand draws what he needs to himself. Both the Prophecies say that and just being an uber-ta'veren.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />   the Harvester of Mankind    <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />      the Thief of Years       <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />     the Slayer of Worlds      <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />     the Ultimate Reality      <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Blog - brucetheloon.blogspot.com</font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-11 01:25:13
subject: <b>That would be a waste</b>
body:
If they were going after the Black Tower, I think they would have gotten the information on just how many men were there, and would have learned that they can Travel. Even if not, The Borderlanders stand no chance, and wouldn't if they had twice the numbers, for two reasons. First being that all the Ash'aman need to do is put a solid shield of Air in front, and then do their &quot;Ring of Fire and Death&quot; or whatever, and the Borderlanders would be slaughtered. Second, if they couldn't do that, they could just drop a couple lightning bolts into the armies each, and then Travel a league away, and then drop another couple, etc, etc, etc.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/seanchan.gif" border="0" />&quot;The Black Knight Always triumphs!!!!!&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-11 20:10:40
subject: <b>Well...</b>
body:
We know that the Borderlanders think that Rand is not concentrating enough on the Blight. However, they know the Eye of the World has been found, and that the Horn of Valere has been found. We also know there was fighting in the Borderlands between men around the time the Stone fell. When Hurin arrived in Shienar bearing news the Dragon had been Reborn.<br /><br />I think they are going to find out if Rand is a False or True Dragon. If he is false, they probably figure 200,000 men can dispose of him. (Remember, they know he has Tear and Cairhien, and they don't want another War of the Second Dragon w/out Artur Kawkwing) They may not know how many Aiel Rand has; thus they may think 200,000 men more the sufficient. <br /><br />If Rand is the real Dragon, they will swear to him (w00t for ta'veren!) and tell him to pay a bit more attention to the north, hmm?<br /><br />If they were going to the Black Tower, why send all those kings/queens? Sure, they may be decent tacticians, but Agelmar Jagad would surely suffice. Tenobia may not be an idiot, but I can't see her planning and executing an attack on a fortress harboring multiple channeling men.


created: 2003-01-20 17:46:26
subject: <b>He picked the wrong target...</b>
body:
This theory's conclusion is completely wrong. It makes no sense for them to be attacking the Black Tower. I think, for all the reason listed in this otherwise well above, it would make more sense that they are intending to go at the Seanchan, but even that has it problems. The line about the world crumbling around them could be a reference to the unstoppable might of the Seanchan. The only problem with them having a goal of attacking something is that it has to be something directly responsible for the &quot;crumbling&quot; of the world. Think of it this way. If Rand can use those troops, as well as the co-operation of those nations, to conquer, control and thus have, the whole world at his back, would that not create a world that is far from crumbling.


created: 2003-01-20 20:59:21
subject: <b>To UltimateReality</b>
body:
I have a similar theory and posted it a few months ago (&quot;Why the Rulers Came South, Metaphysically Speaking&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />, however, I pointed out that though the Pattern might be using any excuse to draw the rulers south with the bulk of their forces, it lets them make up their own reasons to do so.  This theory we are writing about offers one of those motivations.  Remember Verin's compulsion technique-It requires you to come up with your own reason to obey her command.  The Pattern works the same way, and Mat, in particular, is aware of the way he thinks he's doing something on his own only to find himself forced into unpleasant situations, and he can see in hindsight how he was led to that point.  Just because the Pattern is placing the rulers well behind the frontlines for a purpose is no reason to assume that a theory about their motivation is wrong.  This theory could indeed have hit on the excuse to come south the rulers made up to convince themselves, like Rand's obession with going back into Falme.  He had a brief glimpse of Egwene in an a'dam, not even enough to really convince him at first, yet when the Pattern needed him to lead the Heroes against the Seanchan, and the Horn to be sounded, he could feel the need to go back.  Egwene was simply the only excuse he could think up, and he had every reason to doubt that brief glimpse.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-24 11:38:21
subject: <b>The Black Tower is too general a target</b>
body:
I think the theory proposed here is probably about 3/4 right. I think the conclusion the Borderlander army is marching on the Black Tower is very possible, but I don't think it is to attack and destroy the Tower. <br /><br />I can't help but think the Borderlanders have decided to seek out Rand and swear to him. While they are doing that they will remind him of the importance of the Borderlands. I think though they have a price, and not one they will negotiate on. I think they are marching to the Black Tower, with 13 Aes Sedai, to capture Taim and punish him for the destruction he caused in the Borderlands BEFORE he joined Rand. So, why do they need an army to do this you ask? Because the first army they sent after Taim failed. That's right, we need to remember Bashere (one of the great captains) was sent to capture/subdue/punish Taim. The great problem then is that Bashere accepted Rand (a political decision) and let him overrule Tenobia's instructions regarding Taim.<br /><br />So then, the Borderland rulers need to reach Rand and resolve the political issues that he represents (remember these people know the Prophecies of the Dragon, their very existence is dedicated to resisting the DO), but I don't think they are willing to simply let Taim go. I think they intend to capture Taim and have the sisters still him for what he has done to the Borderlands. I think they have decided to do this, even if it incurs Rand's wrath. Certainly, they have indicated they will do something that may displease him, and that they will accept the consequences as Rand sees fit. <br /><br />I like this idea for another reason as well. We all know death and destruction must visit the Black Tower. I am not convinced the ill conceived assault led by the Red Ajah was that event. I like the idea that the Borderlander army will arrive and try to take Taim into custody. Then the 'special training group' of 20-30 (is there anyone who doesn't think they are all Darkfriends?) will fight under Taim. I think that will blow the top off the BT and make Rand deal with it. I also think that group, led by Taim, will in the course of its actions finally spring the DO and TG will begin. I can't help but remember how the Bore was drilled into in the AoL. I can't tell you how they will get their hands on the remaining seals, just that I think they will. I would also expect this to happen sometime around the end of book 11 or beginning of book 12. Plus, an event of such magnitude may also bring to a head Elayne's problems in Andor, wrapping up 2 major issues, and aligning several of the major characters for the outbreak of TG.<br /><br />I'm sorry not to have more supporting evidence on hand, but I'm at work and don't have access to my books. I would just refer everyone back to the main Borderlander rulers conversation, there are certainly several quotes from it above.


created: 2003-02-17 07:53:34
subject: <b>you have to see this</b>
body:
ok its so obvious what they are doing I mean come on. they are marching to capture Rand 13 as are useless against any thing but one channeling man. so why bring 13? because you want 1 man may it be to take him or just to insure he listen is up to speculation but I believe it has to be to capture some one who will destroy them they are out to capture the DR.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">There are three kinds of people in this world. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /> 80 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br />Those who can count and those who cant.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /> 80<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-05-20 00:33:15
subject: <b>They might still be looking for Rand</b>
body:
Don't forget, this is a politically important mission as well.  Regardless of whether or not you actually mean to fight, having 200,000 soldiers lends weight to your arguments.  Everyone here seems to be thinking the Borderlanders stated their purpose, when in fact, they never have.  Elayne even said so, AFTER they made all those statements about Rand ignoring them.  They just stated their feelings of dissatisfaction, never actually revealing what they intended to do.<br /><br />Also regarding Rand's &quot;insult&quot; of not seeking out the Borderlanders' approval, he had far more important tasks than worrying about people who were already prepared to fight the Shadow.  The southern lands &quot;haven't seen a myrdraal since the Trolloc Wars&quot; in the words of the rulers themselves, so quite possibly they need a bit more preparation.  Also, what other four nations are capable of a combined, cooperative effort, like the borderlanders' march south?  How about Tear, Illian, Cairhien, and the Aiel.  And why are they capable of that?  Why because Rand has been wasting all his time with these lands that have never seen a myrdraal.  Aviendha got it in one when she said, &quot;...if you follow (Rand) you dance the spears where he tells you...&quot;<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


created: 2003-06-06 20:38:22
subject: <b>Your theory may be right-</b>
body:
But I agree with Cannoli on this.  The Wheel {Pattern} has in some fashion sent this army south in order to fight the Last Battle, IMO, in The Caralain Grass.  It would be an excellant battleground, sparsely populated, if at all. contains many wolves, has a huge numberof armies in close proximity or on the move in that direction.  <br /><br />Perhaps, even Ituraldi`s second plan is in that direction-who knows?  I have absolutely no proof of this, but if anyone wants to make a Theory, please feel free to go ahead~<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2003-12-08 16:42:10
subject: <b>Skeptical</b>
body:
While many (a vast majority) of the elements of this theory are extremely sound, I'm very skeptical about the conclusion it comes to.<br /><br />I don't believe they are going to war with the Black Tower.  I am more inclined to agree with Cannoli, but that seems like perhaps just a better conclusion and not necessarily a solid one.<br /><br />This is on of the biggest riddles in the series.


created: 2005-01-14 04:00:06
subject: <b>Just wanted to add...</b>
body:
I just wanted to add my opinion of Jordan's horrible event.<br />I've said this for some time on other bboards and I thought I would put it down officially here. <br /><br />It's fairly certain that if the borderlander's attack the Black Tower, they will be crushed.   I think the horrible event will be the destruction of the Borderland armies to practically the last man - all 200,000 of them.


created: 2005-02-07 15:49:29
subject: <b>why it is not the black tower</b>
body:
first off. i assume that they borderlanders, being the battle sauvy people that they are, are staying relatively up to date on events in the world. they would not want to fall behind on the happenings in the world. this being said i think that they have heard about dumais wells and what happened. if the ashaman could take out the shaido clan with hundreds of wise ones how could they hope to stand a chance with thirteen sisters.<br />  i am more in favor of the thought that they will join the fight against the seanchan. i believe that this is what they are referring to when they comment on the crumbling of the interior countries.


created: 2005-04-13 10:03:09
subject: <b>Taim is the answer</b>
body:
I'm so glad someone else saw this, i was tearing my hair out reading all these comments that didn't factor him in at all.  I believe the forces intend to eliminate Taim and began gathering and planning this well before they had current information about Dumai's Wells and certainly before they heard about Elaida's proclamation.  I don't think they intend to fight their way to Taim through the Black Tower, though.  I think they intend to get Rand's attention so they can force the issue of Taim.  Certainly they can't mean to do it before he notices.  Therefore they must mean to use the force as they claim &quot;to get the Attention of the DR&quot; but what they intend to do with that attention is force the issue of Taim's crimes and find a way to bring him to their justice.  <br /><br />Most likely this will involve a more detailed exposition of Taim's history than we have had previosuly enlightening us as to why specifically his elimination is of dire interest to the alliance of borderlanders.


created: 2005-06-02 18:01:46
subject: <b>hold on a minute isnt Lord Ituralde</b>
body:
one of Grendeals puppets?<br /><br />I have a feeling the Borderland armies are being duped as part of a Dark plot. <br /><br />Thier actions seem a bit wierd to me.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">See that Seagull in the sky Im just glad cows dont fly.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-08 19:35:50
subject: <b>Remember the other access key?</b>
body:
Remember when Egwene was seeking/dreaming in reference to Tanchico?<br /><br />She ends up in the room with the seal, the male adam, and... a broken figure of a woman... <br /><br />At some other point (don't have books with me) Moghedien sees the broken woman and thinks something like &quot;A nice surprise for some woman who didn't know better than to touch it.&quot; And then thinks something about the choedan Kal in reference to this broken statue. <br /><br />So I think the broken female figurine in Tanchico was another access key to the Choedan Kal that had broken or melted.... I wish I could find the passage. Will look tonight.<br /><br />But I believe Moghedien also thinks something about the female access keys having been flawed.<br />So I think Nynaeve's key melted b/c it was like the other female access key and was flawed.<br /><br />Goddess Dictator<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Goddess Dictator <br /><br />Secret Ruler of the World <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />(Don't worry Rand, its only a flesh wound... or two.) <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-09 00:38:38
subject: <b>Alviarin not on Mesaana's orders</b>
body:
Hey, i would like to point out that Alviarin thought about asking Mesaana about the 'impossible flare in the Power' and she 'have to be careful not to let slip anything that suggested that she had actually visited the site'. <br /><br />It seems to me that she actually had investigated the cleansing by herself and that she was returning from some errand involving darkfriends with a little sidetrip to Tremalking. She probably knows about the Choedan Kal and merely went there to confirm it. <br />


created: 2003-01-09 04:38:46
subject: <b>Alviarin did more than just take a vacation</b>
body:
If you really look at what Alviarin said about her trip to Tremalking it becomes more obvious (at least to this writer, who is writing this at 2:30 in the morning after just finishing the book) that she was there for more than just a vacation. <br /><br />p. 503<br /><br />&quot;She almost wanted to tell Zemaille what was happening on Tremalking, just to see whether the woman would flinch.&quot;<br /><br />I think she was there to do something evil to someone or something, not to mess with the greatest magic amplifier around.  As to what she is actually doing there, I'm up for suggestions.  I'm just having trouble seeing her there to do something that important for one of the Chosen that decided not to even show up to the battle (this could be because she didn't want to get destroyed, I'll grant you that) Also, I think that she would have been just a little worried that Mesaana would have her head for not making Rand and Nyneave's plan blow up in the first place.  I can believe that Alviarin was sent by Mesaana (she'd be wetting herself to even think of leaving the tower without her permission) but I don't think that she was there to mess with a Sa'angreal


created: 2003-01-09 11:14:10
subject: <b>Either very right or very wrong...</b>
body:
Did Al leave the tower on Mesaana's orders? Definitely. Anything else is unthinkable.<br /><br />Did Al ONLY do whatever Mesaana had told her to do while being out of the tower? Doubtful<br /><br />If Al travelled in from Tremalking, she might have first been to SL to try to figure out what had happened there, then gone to Tremalking to see if the sa'angreal itself had been hurt. Why? <br /><br />What happened on Tremalking? <br /><br />Was the female access key flawed? If not... Why didn't the male access key break? Much less Saidar than Saidin was channeled at through the Choedan Kal. <br /><br />How is Nynaeve? Did the destruction of the female ter'angreal harm her?<br /><br />There's so much I can't answer. All I know is that this theory is either very right or very wrong...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">The only way to convince me is by providing some evidence!</font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-09 13:56:38
subject: <b>Tremalking</b>
body:
At the end of WH, we see from a person POV in Tremalking that the Choedan Kal was being used and that it was the indication that the end of illusions had come for her (i think it was a her) people.  I think that's what Alviarin is commenting on.  The end of illusions sounds like a serious thing for the people of Tremalking and probably has resulted in some sort of huge change in the way of life there... I think that would be what she was talking about.  I think it has to be more than just that the female choedan kal was being used because it would be easy to believe that from the 'beacon' every female channeler has felt without describing anything in Tremalking... obviously i have no real evidence to go on, except just a feeling on why Alviarin worded it that way...


created: 2003-01-09 17:33:12
subject: <b>Why send Alviarin?</b>
body:
why wouldn't Mesaana just do it herself?  It would be much simpler, since she wouldn't have to teach what would likely be a complicated weave and she also wouldn't have to <b>trust</b> Alviarin with such a task.  It's just not a good idea to have someone else do something like this, at least not to me.  It seems more likely that Alviarin went to Tremalking to check on something related to the end of the Time of Illusions.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sir Jim<br />Lord of Minutia&#8482;<br />King of WoT MB Posts&#8482;<br /><br />Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-10 16:43:45
subject: <b>I just figured...</b>
body:
that Alv was in Tremalking to kill Nesta din Res, the mistress of ships and stir up trouble with the Sea folk.  I figure Mesaana sent her to get her out of the tower so Mesaana could have the hall kick Alv out as keeper and install herself as Tarna Feir.


created: 2003-01-11 07:44:27
subject: <b>I thought</b>
body:
that MoS and her master of blades were already executed by Seanchans bc they were traitors and Mat&amp;Co saw their heads during early WH.


created: 2003-01-12 10:31:26
subject: <b>the destruction of the female Choeden Cal</b>
body:
Cadsuane may have caused the destruction of the female Choeden Cal. While Nyn was handling the enormous flows, Cadsuane decided that she would eliminate some of Nyn's fatigue. Nyn, being the stubborn type, may have reacted badly to someone trying to &quot;heal&quot; her while she was using the key. Nyn may have paused in her channedling or changed her flows, leading to the destruction of the key. <br /><br />Or the key itself may have reacted to someone weaving flows into the person using the key. Some flaw or self-destruct mechanism.<br /><br />OR - Cadsuane may have decided to destroy the key purposely. There is the old argument that she is a DF.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">It's time to plant my garden.<br /><br />EntWife</font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-12 16:53:37
subject: <b>Broken Keys</b>
body:
Is it possible that so much Saidar was pulled through that the key was broken? Rand is the strongest in the world as holding and spinning Saidin so maybe that accounts why the male key was not broken. Short of Aliva I doubt there is a woman alive that can wield that much Saidar with out a key breaking. Also how could Alviarin mess with the key? The Access key is with Rand or Nynaeve moost of the time. The Choedan Kal for Saidar is on Tremalking where the age of illuision has ended. Besides Alviarin was gone for a month, in that time the rebel army shows up and the cleansing takes place. What every Alviarin was doing there predates both events.


created: 2003-01-12 20:55:46
subject: <b>Not plausible</b>
body:
Wait a second...<br /><br />alviarin, a puny Aes Sedai, being sent to &quot;tamper&quot; with the most powerful Sa&quot;angreal ever? Doesn't make sense. Either Mesaana told Alviarin exactly what to do, in which case she wouldn't have failed as she is not incompetent, or she didn't tell Alviarin what to do, which would show that Mesaana is stupid, which she isn't.<br /><br />Tampering with the Sa'Angreal affecting the access key? Doesn't make sense either. The way i see it, the access key allows someone to touch the power from the Choden Kal without touching the statue. The statue doesn't affect the key. Sorta like moving your mouse affects your screen, but your screen having no way of moving your mouse.<br /><br />My own two canadian pennies.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b><font color="dark yellow">A</font><font color="red">n</font><font color="orange">an</font><font color="red">k</font><font color="dark yellow">e</font></b><br />Creator of the <i>Glistering and Shining New and Improved Advanced Warder Spoon</i><br />Warder to Corail<br />Disciple-restaurator of WOOPAH!&#8482;<br />Vice-President of <b>BucketBaby's</b> fanclub -She Rocks!<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-13 16:02:52
subject: <b>Punishment</b>
body:
As with all the overly complicated schemes of the Forsaken, I believe there was more than one reason for the trip.  <br /><br />I believe Mesaana is punished so severely because she was using agents (like Alv) to hunt for an access key.  She was hoping to gain an edge in the hunt to become Naeblis.<br /><br />It appears that she did not like Alv's position.  Even though she showed her how to Travel, she has many negative comments even before SH shows up.  I believe that she blames Alv for giving away to much and causing the Black Ajah hunt.  It is ironic that it was not Alviara's doing that Siuan escaped.<br /><br />Of course, didn't Mesaana miss the meeting?  I doubt any of the others told her about the orders.  <br /><br />Or, Alv could have been doing something with the Seanchan.  The usual handlers are busy.  We know that that Mesaana, Semirhage, and Demandred work together normally.  Semirhage as Anath cannot get free.  Demandred, as Masema, is now tied up with Perrin and cannot vanish as he did before.  Mesaana feels she cannot leave the Tower, so she sends Alviarin.  Perhaps she is upset with Alviarin's failure to accomplish something.  That may be why she helped set in motion her downfall as Keeper.


created: 2003-01-15 01:31:55
subject: <b>gone for a month...</b>
body:
Alviarin was gone for that long, but it does not say she spent that entire time on Tremalking.  Mesaana taught her how to Travel and then sent her on some errand.  That much seems very obvious, since Alviarin wouldn't dare leave without permission.<br /><br />Here's my main idea...  At the end of WH, it says that the melted access key was left on the ground, as it was unusable and worthless.  So let's say Alviarin sneaks to investigate at Shadar Logoth and finds the still recognizable figurine on a hill top surrounded by the evidence of a battle fought with the power.  She recognizes it for what it is and goes to Tremalking to see if the female Choedan Kal is also ruined.  <br /><br />There are some possible flaws with this, I know.  For instance -- If the globe and arm were melted away on the access key, why would she connect it with a buried statue on an island in the middle of the ocean?  And it still leaves us with not knowing why she left the tower in the first place.  I like the idea that Mesaana sent her to find an access key, since all the Forsaken seem to be searching for and hoarding items of the power.  That would explain how she might recognize it.  <br /><br />But since it's 1:30 in the morning, I'm going to say this is the best I can explain it and hope it still makes sense in the morning.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">...but that's just my opinion <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/blush.gif" border="0" /> Now resuming lurk mode<br /><br />Brown Ajah<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shy.gif" border="0" /> Hmmm...fascinating<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> (scritch, scri, scritch)</font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-15 22:40:54
subject: <b>Broken things</b>
body:
I think the most compelling argument so far is the fact that the other choedan kal was broken.  How was the one in Tanchico broken?  It is possible that what ever caused the first one to break could also be the cause of the destruction of the second.<br /><br />I do not remember where it said this but I do remember the choedan kal cannot be used directly. You must the keys as buffers to protect the user.  Any one who tries to use them directly will be destroyed.  Now I do not believe we have seen the last of the choedan kal.  If there were two keys, why couldn&#8217;t there be three?  It will most likely require both to seal the dark one&#8217;s chamber.  So, where is the third key?  Maybe there is no third key and Egwene will have to make a new one because she is the only one with any knowledge about such things (even if she isn&#8217;t any good at it).  If there is no key then all they have is a very big and pretty statue on Tremalking (I just can&#8217;t believe Jordan would do that.  As we all know he has a habit of bringing things back we may not expect).<br /><br />As for Alv, I really dought she did anything with the choedan kal simply because it cannot be used directly and also because of the above mentioned theory on its breakage.  Maybe she was going to check on the third key.  That would be more than enough to make Zemaille flinch.<br /><br />p. 503<br /><br />&quot;She almost wanted to tell Zemaille what was happening on Tremalking, just to see whether the woman would flinch.&quot;<br /><br />That might also motivate her to go SL.  Mesaana sent Alv because Mesaana is not the type to do things directly.  She likes to work from the background.<br />


created: 2003-01-20 00:44:56
subject: <b>Access Keys &amp; &quot;Untrained Children&quot;</b>
body:
The point's made strongly that Mesaana is real stingy with knowledge, dribbling little bits to whet Al's appetite and only teaching her enough to make her useful for running errands. It's certain the Tower knows what the Choedan Kal are (if not by name) but nothing even hints at knowledge of the access keys. Aside from basic contempt, not trusting a 'so-called Aes Sedai' to tamper with a device capable of drawing enough OP to destroy the world, I can't imagine Mesaana letting Al know a ter'angreal exists to make it a practical weapon.<br /><br />Just guess-timating, the scene takes place 1-2 weeks following the cleansing. Time enough for the Amayar, recognizing the end of illusions, to really upset the relationship they had with the Sea Folk? Possibly. And, IIRC, the Seanchan have a presence on Tremalking, too. Any damane or sul'dam there would have been climbing the walls knowing something was going on. All kinds of potential chaos and lots of opportunities there for spreading more.<br /><br />Are access keys needed to use the Choedan Kal? Rand in tGH instinctively recognizes the male device, we get some light and a little ranting, and Selene/Lanfear gets real nervous. I can't remember where/if it says the buffer is in the key(correction?). The only one we know for sure is unbuffered is Callandor. Even if no other keys remain, the male key is still portable and a link/circle could provide its own buffer. (kinda makes me wonder if other male keys are out there somewhere...)<br /><br />Stepping down from the soapbox...


created: 2003-01-24 01:56:11
subject: <b>Chronology</b>
body:
1.  Rand finished a Shaidar Logoth<br />2.  Alvairin visits Shaidar Logoth<br />3.  Alvairin visits Tremalking<br /><br />We know the events happend in this order, since Alvairin returned to the tower directly from Tremalking, and she visited Shaidar Logoth AFTER Rand was done.  We also know Avairin had very limited knowledege of what happend at Shaidar Logoth, so she could not have been involved.<br /><br />The Choedal Kal, or anything similar to them, was never used before, so the key could simply have failed.  <br /><br />Given Moghedian's comments, it seems more likely a woman too weak to use the key would destroy the key and herself, this probably happend to the first key.  Nyaneve WAS able to finish her job (saidin was cleansed) before the key melted, at which time she was struggling and barely able to go on.  Most likely she wasn't as strong a women as the key was intended for, and almost got killed or failed to do what Rand needed her for.


created: 2003-01-29 21:58:14
subject: <b>Something is happening on Tremalking</b>
body:
&quot;She almost wanted to tell Zemaille what was happening on Tremalking&quot; - this indicates something is still &quot;happening&quot;, not that a key was found, not that something happend to the statue.  Whatever it is, it isn't over.  <br /><br />Remember the end of WH?  The people on Tremalking say the &quot;age of illusion has past&quot;.  We don't know what this, but it sounds like an important, massive change - not someone simply finding a key or breaks a statue.


created: 2004-12-14 09:48:08
subject: <b>acces keys</b>
body:
I think someone can put a trap on the acces keys trough the original statues. The way I see it for someone to draw power through the acces keys a connection has to be made so someone can send a burst of power trough that connection. Combined with the gigantic amount of power already flowing through the connection this could be enough for the acces keys to melt, hopefully along with anyone nearby. This doesn't require a difficult weave (just a burst of power when someone uses the keys) so alviarin could have figured it out on her own or mesaana could have shown alviarin how to do it without running the risk of her becoming to powerfull.


created: 2003-01-09 03:25:02
subject: <b>The Shadow has a plan</b>
body:
Why would Merillie run??  I think Lady Shiane said it best.  &quot;How would you like to see Cemlyn looted?&quot;<br />&quot;The Taraboner&quot; and the talk of &quot;cords&quot; has me convinced that the forces beseiging Caemlyn are forces of the shadow and that Armyllia is most likely a DF.  I think in the next book Elayne is going to realzie that she doesn't hace things nearly in control as she thinks<br />This gives Merillie a reason to get out of the palace and city, taking with her Talene, who has always been supicious.  <br />In short, yes I think this points the finger at Merillie as BA, and most likely the killer.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I killed Asmodean.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-09 06:08:41
subject: <b>I have been saying it was her for ages...</b>
body:
I even queried the FAQs, (to which I was basically brushed off - understandable I suppose, there was only circumstancial evidence.)<br /><br />Who would know better that Adeleas had changed her taste in tea than a lady's maid, and who had a lady's maid with her in Ebou Dar? Merilille.<br /><br />Indeed Pol (that's her name by the way) was conspicuous by her absence in CoT.


created: 2003-01-09 08:13:48
subject: <b>Mellar...</b>
body:
As a remember, at excactly the same time as Elayne and her party arrived at camelyn, capten mellar also arrived, so i thought it quite obvius that it was Mellar who killed her.


created: 2003-01-09 09:34:45
subject: <b>Merilille's harrowed look</b>
body:
Merilille started teaching the Sea Folk even before Adelas was killed. And it was shortly after starting her &quot;classes&quot; that she started looking harrowed. So it is most probably NOT because she killed Adelas that she looks harrowed, but because the Windfinders are rather harsh towards her.<br /><br />I'm not denying that it is unlikely that she has gone of with the apprentice to enroll her as a novice, but the fact that it's winter doesn't stop her from weaving a gateway to Tar Valon. The only problem there is that I don't remember if she's strong enough to make one.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">give me what I want, and I'll go away... <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-09 09:43:00
subject: <b>Interesting.... Some more evidence to add to Merillille</b>
body:
I hypothesized that Merillille may have been the killer several months before CoT.<br /><br />The evidence is not very strong, but it is at least something to consider in light of everything else here.  You can find the complete run-down in my theory, &quot;Sammael, Moghedien, and the great cache of Ebou Dar.&quot;<br /><br />Merilille - A letter was sent to Merilille to inform her of the Bowl of Winds (and probably the cache). As we know, Merilille is also a suspect in the murders of Adeleas and Ispan. Could this be another addition to that theory? <br /><br />This is an excerpt from my theory:<br /><br />&quot;In LoC in A Pile of Sand, Elayne and Nynaeve confront 3 Aes Sedai (Morvrin, Carlinya, and Sheriam) about the Bowl of the Winds-<br /><br />&quot;and out tumbled the story of their trip to Ebou Dar and finding the bowl ter'angreal. Not in proper order, and not mentioning the Tower, but all the essential points were there.&quot;<br /><br />No specific mention of other ter'angreal is made. The Bowl is clearly the focus. However, they did mention something about the other 'essential points.' So it is quite possible they mentioned something about other ter'angreal as well.<br /><br />The 3 Aes Sedai were Sheriam, Morvrin, and Carlinya. Sheriam warded the room, so there is no possibility of eavesdroppers. As far as we know none of these sisters are black (although Sheriam is a suspect, and I will elaborate on this later). Interestingly, Sheriam comments, &quot;We will send a letter to Merilille.&quot; Later in the chapter we see a comment by Sheriam, &quot;There are ears where we least expect them.&quot;<br /><br />Nynaeve and Elayne's affair with the 3 sisters is very private, and the 3 sisters are all concerned about secrecy. As far as we know, they told nobody about the ter'angreal stash. As far as we know, they did not even address the hall about this issue. The only possible thing that they could have done was to send a letter to Merilille.<br /><br />Yet 8 chapters later, with no other POV's from the Salidar camp, we see that Sammael has already learned of the ter'angreal stash. In To Understand a Message, Sammael says, &quot;I all but have my hands on a cache of angreal and who can say what else.&quot;<br /><br />Where did Sammael learn of this stash from? I find it interesting that Sammael doesn't first mention the cache until after Nynaeve and Elayne located the Kin's keep. This suggests that Sammael did not learn of the cache until after Nynaeve and Elayne located it.&quot;<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ADA- AlannaDawn Anonymous-- helping wotmaniacs recovering from their AlanndaDawn Addictions in a dynamic new 12-step program.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-09 11:02:54
subject: <b>Weak...</b>
body:
I think that for a theory to be called realistic, it has to have some rather convincing arguments to counter the evidence against it. To just label anything that goes against your theory as red herrings, does not convince me that your theory is correct, it makes me wonder whether there really is no better explanation. <br /><br />Never mind Elayne's comment, Merilille's behavious had changed since she started teaching the Sea Folk. It cannot be explained away by a guilty conscience (in ADVANCE?), when it is so clearly related to the the Windfinders and the way they treat teachers (not just according to Merilille, but the other AS as well). Just see how well Nyn's behaviour after a lesson fits Merilille's attitude. BOTH Nyn and Merilille have experience of handling difficult people, BOTH fail to control the Windfinders.<br /><br />Further, it is more than likely Talaan asked the same of Merilille as from Nyn. Maybe Merilille promised that she woudl not have to return to the sea, before the Windfinders got her under their control. As AS Merilille can't break her promise, so when it seemed the windfinders were leaving, she took Talaan and ran. <br /><br />And to assume Sareitha is so dazzled by the Captain is simple foolishness. She is AS, assumed to know Daes Dae'mar and in that light for her to go against El, her superior, is more than illogical. There has to be some strong motivation for that kind of foolish behavious, like some threat from her fellow DFs. Shiane seems to have an ability make the BA forget their high horses when it comes to DFs.<br /><br />Elayne was one of the girls sent by SS to hunt the 13 escaped BA. If she sees any hint of them in Caemlyn, they are exposed.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">The only way to convince me is by providing some evidence!</font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-09 12:33:17
subject: <b>Well...</b>
body:
it would not be the first time we have seen foolish Aes Sedai, Sareitha really could just believe Mellar to be a hero and worthy of praise.<br /><br />As for the theory...if the others are red herrings, why can't Merilille's leaving be one? It seems SUCH an obvious pointer towards her being the killer that it makes me suspicious. Suspicious that Jordan is leading us away from the truth I mean.<br /><br />Not that I have another suspect. After WH I was definitely leaning towards Vandene, in fact the only thing holding me back was the fact that I didn't know whether those who had worked out it HAD to be one of the four current suspects had dismissed Vandene as a possibility simply because she was Adeleas's sister. I don't think there's anything in CoT that proves it can't be Vandene, but the description of what she's been doing and her behaviour suggests it isn't her.<br /><br />Which is a real pity as there were so many good clues dragged up to point the finger towards her.<br /><br />I don't know if all the clues have been shown yet for the killer, if they are they aren't in this theory, but it could still be right. Perhaps come TG we'll have Talaan fighting for the Shadow and we can all speculate that Merilille turned her with 12 others and a 13 Myrddraal.


created: 2003-01-09 13:27:02
subject: <b>Wasn't it Talaan</b>
body:
who did pass Aviendha's message of the gray man when the sisters traveled from Ebou Dar to the Kin's Farm.  If so, this makes Merillile suspicious by association.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Miss you Kory.<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /> Trigger  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> Tehanu's honourary Aussie <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />  Taimandred still LIVES... as a proxy<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> Lanfear killed Asmo <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />Aliena's | &gt;  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /> <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-09 17:26:00
subject: <b>too many problems</b>
body:
The first, which others have mentioned has to do with the fact that Merilille had that hunted look before the murder, it came about right after she started teaching the Sea Folk.  It's also unlikely that any BA would feel guilt about killing an Aes Sedai, at least we have seen none of it in the 13 BA that fled the White Tower and killed 2 Aes Sedai, IIRC.  You are right about Sareitha having no reason to praise Mellar, however that cuts both ways.  There's no reason for the praise if she's not a DF, but if she is then it may be a part of some plan that we don't know about.  Your point about Aes Sedai thinking that other DFs were lower than them is valid, but it makes no difference since any Aes Sedai would do whatever a Forsaken told them to do, or whatever someone working for a Forsaken told her to do.  As for her leaving in the middle of winter, it's unlikely that she would draw such attention to herself if she believed she were a murder suspect.  The reason for the hoods was so that none of the Sea olk would see her leaving and at least give her a headstart if they did choose to come after her.  As for the apprentice, it is most likely talaan who asked Nynaeve if she could be enrolled in the White Tower as a novice.  Nynaeve also thinks that the White Tower would definately want Talaan since she was the fifth generation in her family to channel.  As for Tar Valon being under seige, it doesn't matter since Merilille will be meeting up with Egwene's group outside Tar Valon.  Plus there's the fact that Sareitha had Nynaeve cover for her teaching the Sea Folk, just after we learned that one of the BA mentioned knowing someone in the Palace that could do as Lady Shaine(sp?) wanted.  Anyway, the last thing is that just because it's obvious doesn't mean it can't be right, I mean RJ thinks that Asmo's killer is obvious, it's not like he intended it to be difficult to figure out.  Likely this is another such case that is equally easy, but everyone is overanalyzing it.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sir Jim<br />Lord of Minutia&#8482;<br />King of WoT MB Posts&#8482;<br /><br />Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-10 13:41:04
subject: <b>Vandene</b>
body:
I hold with the theory that Adeleas was BA and Vandene discovered it... She also discovered at that time that another BA was wandering around with them, and that is why she is still looking so furiously for &quot;the murderer.&quot;<br />


created: 2003-01-14 02:21:01
subject: <b>Merilille, Taalan, Adeleas and Slayer</b>
body:
The most obvious reason for Merilille to flea is because she doesn't want to be stuck teaching the Sea Folk harridins for the rest of her natural born life.  Now obvious doesn't equal correct, but we've seen no other real motivation for her to leave, Black Ajah or no Black Ajah.  I personally still dispute the idea that it was any of the sisters present at what's his faces manor house that actually killed Adeleas.  Why would a Black Ajah sister risk exposing herself after Vandene and Adeleas had already had plenty of time to question Ispan?  That death, and Asmodean's too quite honestly, reek of Slayer.  Isam, looking enough like Lan to fool a woman distracted by questioning a baddie enters with tea, then does what he does best.  Not to say that one of the sisters in Elayne's crew is not Black Ajah, I just don't think that they would be foolish enough to nearly expose themselves by killing someone who's already spilled most of her beans.  And one  small quote is not enough for me to discount Slayer as the killer.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Diomedes <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-14 09:22:57
subject: <b>Careane</b>
body:
If it is not Sareitha, that does not mean it needs to be Merillile.  Careane is also a suspect.  If RJ made Sareitha a red herring, why not make Merilille one as well?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="white">|</font>&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;<img src="images/personalsmilies/747.gif" /><br />Only so evil.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-16 09:27:35
subject: <b>Uhm...</b>
body:
Am I the only who read this:<br /><br />&quot;What would they of later, though? Weather Elayne was having a spat with the father of her child? Weather they had successfully hidden their guilt in killing Adeleas?&quot;<br /><br />About Merilille, Sareitha and Careane at the very end of Chapter 11, after she talks down Hanlon.


created: 2003-01-16 09:30:04
subject: <b>Typo's...</b>
body:
&quot;What would they talk of later, though? Whether Elayne was having a spat with the father of her child? Weather they had successfully hidden their guilt in killing Adeleas?&quot;<br /><br /><br />...


created: 2003-01-21 09:47:04
subject: <b>Two strong younglings on the Lam</b>
body:
Well I just finished reading CoT, and I haven't got to read all these theories yet, but I just wanted to throw in that now two young channelers of great potential have disappeared. Talaan with Merilille from Elayne's camp, and Nicola Treehill from the Rebel Aes Sedai. Perhaps the shadow is gathering young ambitious girls for its own purposes. Just more to chew on.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Why on earth would anybody want to kidnap a groundhog?&quot;<br /><br />&quot;I can think of a few reasons, the pervert!&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-08 21:09:37
subject: <b>Not that damning.</b>
body:
Talaan told Merilille to take her to the Tower, same as she asked Nyv. Merilille has shown she'll accept any reason not to go with the Sea Folk, so she left, or Talaan blackmailed/forced her etc, etc. Plus, even if Merilille can't make a gateway (which she can't, yes?) Talaan is definately strong enough, and she probably knows since the Sea Folk know, and they are taught via the apprentices, or Merilille could show her (like Sorelia could show Cadsuane even without being strong enough). Just because something is obvious doesn't mean it isn't true - Mat will discover gunpowder.


created: 2003-01-09 21:28:10
subject: <b>This needed a theory?</b>
body:
I quote from CoT, Chapter 3, A Fan of Colors:<br /><br />&quot;And I (Mat) left her tied up and gagged so she couldn't even call for help, easy prey for the gholam,&quot; he said bitterly. &quot;I was looking for me. Don't shake you head. Thom. You know it as well as I do.&quot;<br /><br />...<br /><br />(Thom) &quot;Well enough of that. Mat, she could have had a hundred guards round her, and it wouldn't have stopped that thing.&quot;<br /><br />Still, I certainly prefer theories to be posted which perhaps don't need to be over theories not being posted which should.


created: 2003-01-09 21:51:56
subject: <b>how did this make it?</b>
body:
It's not a theory at all, it's paraphrasing what Mat already concluded. A fictitious character beat you to the punch. Lately, the theories have been pretty bad, I wonder if the admins are slackin a bit more than they should (or maybe the community!). <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />


created: 2003-01-09 23:39:58
subject: <b>I echo the thoughts of the first 2 posters</b>
body:
..<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ADA- AlannaDawn Anonymous-- helping wotmaniacs recovering from their AlanndaDawn Addictions in a dynamic new 12-step program.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-10 04:49:15
subject: <b>the book suck</b>
body:
the book suck is there anything esle to say<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /> Master of all <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /> Bringer of Darkness <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/seanchan.gif" border="0" /> Ruler of the World <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/seanchan.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-10 05:46:39
subject: <b>Thank you Captain Obvious...</b>
body:
Ican't believe this was posted.  Mike, do us a favor and take this off the theory page.  Mat friggin says it's the gholam!!!


created: 2003-01-10 11:18:07
subject: <b>*shrugs* Better than other stuff that's been posted</b>
body:
For example...<br /><br />http://www.wotmania.net/theorypostdbtheory.asp?ID=404&amp;Category=Daughter<br /><br />That one's still there, and this theory actually discusses other possibilities.  Mat says it was the Gholam, but he can't really <i>know</i>.  This just covers all of the possibilities.<br /><br />And if you're going to complain about the theories posted, submit some GOOD theories.  There has been very little worthwhile among the drivel we get.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Vercingetorix<br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/803.gif" /><br />Theory Post Admin<br /><br />I went to the doctor the other day and all he did was drain some blood from my neck.  Don't ever go to Doctor Acula.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-10 11:43:02
subject: <b>My God I think your right dear chap...</b>
body:
...there was me thinking it was Taimadred.<br /><br />I think I might submit a theory that Rand Al'Thor is the Dragon Reborn.<br /><br />Dai Lau.<br /><br />Guess we all be blushing if it turns out Gholam wasn't responsible.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/blush.gif" border="0" />


created: 2003-01-10 12:37:45
subject: <b>Yeah..</b>
body:
well that Tuon one was clearly intended as a joke theory by the author. I doubt this was. Besides, we all complained a while ago when Raserei kept posting rubbish theories and it stopped, it doesn't mean they were taken down though.<br /><br />Perhaps if there was some debate over the truth, these sort of theories should be posted, but it was so obvvious it was the gholam even without Mat saying so and Thom reluctantly backing him up.<br /><br />As for good theories, I have submitted theories in the past which I know were good and have been rejected. One Buur responded to in a note (thanks again for that Burr, I know you're under no obligation to) saying it just needed that little bit more evidence to be posted. I realised I didn't have all the answers for that one though and no more clues came up in CoT for it, so I'll wait on it. It might sound arrogant to say the theories were good, but they were! And I know they were original for this site and pretty damn certain they are on the net (someone somehwere is bound to have thought the same thing, but if we use that as the definition of original then no theories would make it). I submitted one about why Min's viewings fade when a channeler holds the power. I still believe it to be true. I don't have a clue why it wasn't posted, I'm gonna submit it again sometime and hope someone else reads it and actually understands what I'm saying.<br /><br />The amount of times I see people posting their theories on the message board after having them rejected by the theory post, frequently bad yes, but every so often they're great and spark lots of discussion. Every time that happens I stare in wonder at the screen trying to work out how it could possibly have been rejected.


created: 2003-01-13 18:02:43
subject: <b>not the gholam</b>
body:
i don't believe the gholam did this for the simple fact that the gholam drinks the blood of it's victims.  Ebu dar was already on alert for the killer who drank blood when mat left, and if tylin was found with no head and no blood, mat would for sure have heard it in the rumor.


created: 2003-01-14 04:27:58
subject: <b>T'would seem obvious to most, I know...</b>
body:
To those who complained at the obviosity (sp.) of Tylin's Fate: I have written several theories, some of which were good, only to find them cyber-balefired (as ThreeInABoat had pointed out). I wrote this on the unlikely off chance it would ever make it. I was slightly surprised that it made it (though glad).<br />To oletobias5: Thom has indeed assassinated King Galldrian for the murder of his beloved Dena. Check it out in TWoTRPG. If this is not enough, follow Thom's POV in Ch. 34 of TGH. Thom initially wanted to kill Lord Barthanes (who was meanwhile torn to pieces by a gholam...perhaps that's who you were thinking of?) due to the assassins' &quot;confession,&quot; but the innkeeper Zera recognized the assassins as being in the pay of Galldrian. From Thom's train of thought, it is obvious the King would die. Besides, for what reason would the Shadow have the king killed? Galldrian was not important to the plot or to the Shadow except so far that his death precipated bloody chaos in Cairhien.<br />To khayman89: gholams DO leave corpses lying around. Lord Barthanes and Herid Fel were both torn up. Those murder victims were found drained of blood in Ebou Dar, so how would the murders be known unless people found the bodies? Tylin's head was torn and left lying around. Need I say more?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Gaeran Amaconde<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />Grand Historian at the Court of the Sun<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />One of Those Chosen to Bring the Light<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" />Master of Graendal's Revels<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" />&quot;If sometimes our dreams come true, what of our nightmares?&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-16 02:19:17
subject: <b>The Dice</b>
body:
&quot;Perhaps the dice tumbled at the danger of being caught by the gate guards. Perhaps they also tumbled at the momentous murder of the Queen of Altara and as luck (or the very generous Pattern) would have it, Mat chose to flee Ebou Dar on the very night the gholam would have tried to kill Mat.&quot;<br /><br />Mat also comments on the dice rolling at that time too...he was wondering what Rand was doing at the time the Dice were rolling.  He also had an image of Rand and Nynaeve at the same time too...they were cleansing the male half of the source.<br /><br />In book 9, he also mentioned how the dice only roll for him.  When he first meets Tuon, and the dice just stopped on him, with nothing obviously disasterous happening. (Bah spelling.)<br /><br />He mentions something about how it couldn't be for Tylin sitting there the Seanchen, or how she is now under Seanchen rule etc...because the dice didn't work that way. They only rolled for him...for danger, something momentous/significant happening to him.<br /><br />Maybe since he's connected to Rand, they were rolling for Rand at the time he was cleansing the male half of the OP.<br /><br />Sar. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/min.gif" border="0" />


created: 2003-01-16 16:53:12
subject: <b>I thought</b>
body:
when I read the title, that there might be some revelation as to why Tylin was killed. Maybe something along the lines of Suroth or Semirhage finding her, and questioning her about the disappearance of Tuon and Mat. Not being pleased with her answers, the One Power is then used to rip her head off, to make it appear the gholam did it. This would make as much sense to me. Suroth would certainly be anxious over losing the heir to the throne, and has damane at her disposal. Semirhage cannot be happy about losing her charge either. Even though tearing someones head off is not her style, Semmy could have been in a hurry with all the channelers around, and the gholam could take the blame. We don't have any indication of her blood missing, and the gholam has been known to tear bodies to pieces, not just rip off the head.<br /><br /> A little more Light in the Night!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-17 09:33:19
subject: <b>Thom did NOT kill the king</b>
body:
and this was not a theory.  I don't give a hoot what the RPG says.  It wasn't done by RJ and that means it's little more than fan fiction.  Read the books and you'll see Thom intended to kill Galldrian, but somebody beat him to the punch.  As for the &quot;theory&quot;, here I have some more for you:<br />&quot;Why Rand may be the Dragon Reborn&quot;<br />&quot;Is Mat lucky&quot;<br />&quot;I think Perrin can talk to wolves&quot;<br />&quot;Aes Sedai might be stubborn and complacent&quot;<br />&quot;Ishmael is a bad guy&quot;


created: 2003-01-17 14:51:21
subject: <b>Shane Reese</b>
body:
There's no need to be so insulting. It demeans us all. If people are so put off by obvious &quot;theories,&quot; the admins would simply push the delete button, yet they didn't.<br />So....shain! (peace)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Gaeran Amaconde<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />Grand Historian at the Court of the Sun<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />One of Those Chosen to Bring the Light<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" />Master of Graendal's Revels<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" />&quot;If sometimes our dreams come true, what of our nightmares?&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-24 01:12:05
subject: <b>Good Theory</b>
body:
This is a very vaild theory:<br /><br />The killing isn't completely consistent with the other descriptions of the gholam victims.<br /><br />It is very unlike RJ to kill a ruler without the murderer having deep political motives.<br /><br />Tylin was bound - the gholam could have killed any of the guards as easily if it was just hungry - but whoever found the queen tied and gagged would see an easy chance at murder, if they had thought or planned one earlier.<br /><br />I thought Thom knew some secret about this - from the way he was talking with Matt.<br /><br />The gholam is still the obvious answer, but I had immediate doubts when I read that passage, and I have too many doubts to disregard this post entirely.


created: 2003-02-02 20:01:21
subject: <b>Yes, but WHY?</b>
body:
I think it's fair to say that we all find it blindingly obvious that the gholam killed Tylin. But with that as a given, the important question becomes why. <br /><br />As has been mentioned above, there was no talk of her blood being consumed, so it wasn't due to hunger. And very possibly it did go looking for Mat, but upon finding him elsewhere, why kill Tylin, especially given that she was tied up to boot. We know the gholam can sense channeling, and would have been able to track Elayne's party with ease. He knew where they went, despite the fact that they travelled, and thought about going after them, but decide to stay and get Mat, who was wanted dead, &quot;almost as much as the others&quot;. However, upon finding Mat gone how was the gholam to track him. That is why I believe Tylin copped it. The gholam was trying to pump her for information and presumably, she didn't give it any, thus it ripped her head off. Although, to be fair, I doubt she had any info to give in the first place.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;I can express more emotion than laughter, anger and let's . . .&quot;<br /><br />Shooganooga<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-06 03:13:20
subject: <b>Re: Tylin' Fate</b>
body:
I lean toward Semi being responsible, for reasons mostly outlined in a theory I submitted.  As far as I know, Four people know that Tuon is the DoTNM before the escape.  Anath, Eagenin, Suroth, and likely Tylin.  Anath is probably Semi, Suroth is her stool pigeon, Eagenin escaped with Mat and co. which leaves Tylin, tied under a bed, the only other person who can recognize Tuon face to face.  Most of the rest of the time she was veiled.  That means to me, Tylin is the only one around who could contest a Stooge DoTNM that Semi/Anath and Suroth put in front of Rand's face.  <br /><br />Now it may be that the Gholam did the tearing, but I doubt he'd be hunting on Semi's turf, in her residence at the moment as it happens to be, without her consent.  maybe SHE wanted tylin dead, or maybe she sent him after Mat, and Mat wasn't there, regaurdless, if anything Gholam's just the colt 45 here.  Likely though, Semi did it with the power, just to connect it with the Gholam's murder spree outside the city, and thus ecshew all doubt that a murder was commited by someone residing  in the palace, or by the gods, someone killed with the power in some strange way!  that couldn't happen here with 50 some odd sul'dam up in the attic.


created: 2003-02-08 20:37:24
subject: <b>Umm</b>
body:
Yes, a little obvious. And an error - Aes Sedi can kill, just not with the One Power.<br /><br />I have to agree that the Theory Posts are a bit strange, they like obvious theories, but not interesting ones. And since when do you need proof? If you can prove it, it is not a theory. Just a few indications that you are onto something unique should be enough, then let us rip it to shreds.


created: 2003-02-12 15:08:57
subject: <b>Looks like a semi truck struck Tylin to me</b>
body:
I am leaning towards Semi being the culprit for similar reasons to others who have posted previously.  These reasons being:<br />1.  Semi is not Aes Sedai, and therefore she can do whatever the hell she wants to do with the one power. (accepted yes?)<br />2.  It seems part of the process to get all who have personal, up-close knowledge of Tuon out of the immediate picture.  I can't think of any other reason to specifically kill Tylin. (refer to #4 below)<br />3.  The whole kidnapping situation was probably displeasing to Suroth and Semirhage who happen to be two pretty evil ladies with maldeveloped senses of empathy. (minor point)<br />4.  I didn't think gholams killed out of spite.   &quot;Just 'cause she was there&quot; seems kind of limp.  If there have been any cases of such occurences please let me know.<br />5.  This one i'm not sure of, but either way it goes back to #4, Don't gholams drink the blood of their victims?  If there have been cases of assasination by gholam w/o feeding, again please let me know.<br />


created: 2003-07-14 14:57:18
subject: <b>You have a marvellous talent...</b>
body:
for stating the bloody obvious.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>Master of the Revels</i><br /><br /><b>If I can't dance, then I don't want any part of your revolution</b></font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-30 23:07:26
subject: <b>You obviously skipped a few parts of the book</b>
body:
Mike, why post this one?  I've had better theories that didn't blatently state the obvious!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" />Rand will not die<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" />Egwene will<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />ashaman04</font><p></p>


created: 2004-10-15 00:12:47
subject: <b>Don't be hurt</b>
body:
I liked your theory. Though many said it was ovvious, I think it also spurred conversation, as to what else could have happned. And that imo is good.<br /><br />Love always and forever,<br />Phoenix


created: 2005-02-20 15:37:36
subject: <b>ditto</b>
body:
to everyone who said 'this is really, really, really, really, obvious'<br /><br />however, im liking the idea of a theory explaning rand being the dragon reborn. the whole, lews therin in his head, taking the stone of tear, cleansing saidin, forsaken all trying to kill him... im just not convinced. oh, yeah, and the book title 'The Dragon Reborn' with a picture of rand on the front. doesnt quite do it for me...<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">-Sabin<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2006-03-20 05:01:00
subject: <b>This has gotten me thinking - isn't that the point???</b>
body:
To all of you who think it is glaringly obvious that it was the gholam that killed Tylin - I used to think this as well. But somewhere above on this blackboard someone has mentioned a theory that it might have been Semirhage and PEOPLE!!! this made me start second guessing what seemed obvious!<br /><br />Now tell me something, isn't this second guessing the whole point of these theory posts? I mean, these posts are for those of us who love the series so much that we want to be even more immersed into RJ's world that we look for other ways to do it while waiting for his new releases. So, stating what may be glaringly obvious is not a crime but should be viewed as what I think the author of the post wanted - just a way to reopen conversation on this particular topic. That isn't a bad thing... is it?<br /><br />Well, as I mentioned earlier, I really did think it was the gholam but for me now I'm pretty sure it wasn't. People keep mentioning that the gholam ALWAYS drinks the blood of its victims - no it does not as we have seen with Herid Fel. Yes it does delight in tearing human flesh into iddy-biddy pieces - and hence just Tylin's head being separated from her body no longer clinches this for me.<br /><br />I think I agree with the person who said that Semirhage staged it so that she could get the final person who could recognise the DotNM out of the way and therefore place someone else in Tuon's place. I don't remember exactly where but I'm pretty sure that her intention usurp Tuon's place is mentioned by RJ.<br /><br />Anyhow, good work everyone and let's not degrade people for &quot;stating the obvious&quot;. In fact - tell me something - if Rand is the Dragon Reborn, why is there a discrepancy with him and his previous avatar??? Has no one noticed that MAT'S PREIVIOUS LIVES DO NOT TALK TO HIM??? Tell me something people - how EXACTLY is Rand the Dragon Reborn? I think we can safely say that he is actually a vessel that CARRIES the Dragon and is not ACTUALLY TOTALLY the Dragon - otherwise wouldn't he simply have access to LTT's memories as opposed to being able to speak to him.<br /><br />I know that this is a long reply and that I've digressed from conversation about Tylin, but one last thing I must mention that sort of refutes my own proposed question about Rand and LTT is that the Wise Ones warn that you lose something when you enter T'A'R in the flesh - sooooooo... maybe it was entering T'A'R in the flesh that sort of created a chance for LTT's personality to cleave from Rand and form something of a separate entity - a separate soul so to speak. You lose your soul if in T'A'R in the flesh right? Rand lost part of his soul to a part of his past... is this possible???<br /><br />Well, cheers all, let's keep talking, it's fun! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />


created: 2008-04-28 01:52:46
subject: <b>wow...</b>
body:
this theory is retarded...<br /><br />bela and narg hahaha <br /><br />ok, and mumbaindude, your retarded...I mean really, if you THINK that RJ has gone through all of this to pull a fast on everyone that the main character isn the main character then you must think RJ is the worst writer ever, no one would do that.<br /><br />and as for only hearing voices and not being LTT, lets see there is the taint for one thing and matts memories were put there by the flin thats being reborn as someone from a previous life...thats sayn a apple is better then pizza, they are not both fruit, how can you being to compare the two?<br /><br />


created: 2003-01-10 21:42:02
subject: <b>Quokka?????</b>
body:
I suppose this makes me seem like an ignorant newbie (and not that i'm not one..)  but WHAT IS A QUOKKA?????????<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Signed with the Sign that sells!</font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-10 22:21:50
subject: <b>*gives Airlance a small piece of paper...</b>
body:
...and sends them in wads' direction*<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Catriona</b>, Countess of Options<br /> Still searching for that one great love...<br /><font color="gray"><i>Hunter</i></font><br />Eternal Wotmaniad Fangirl<br />But now you're cooler than Mr. T. - OA  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><font color="orange"><i>For Kory and Joe:</i></font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-12 11:55:11
subject: <b>LOL</b>
body:
<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> that cheered me up <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">hot damn.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-12 17:33:31
subject: <b>A Quokka is.....</b>
body:
Picture a Kangaroo, now picture a fairly fat Kangaroo, now picture a fat kangaroo that is only about 50 centimetres tall. That is a quokka. They only live on one small island off the coast of Western Australia. The island is actual called Rotnest Island baecause when the first people landed there they thought it was infested with giant rats. They don't do much except eat and participate in quokka soccer when they encounter people staggering home from the pub. However they dont even remotely look like:<br /><br /> &quot;an odd animal shaped roughly like a pig, but with a large round snout and feet as wide as its thick legs&quot;<br /><br />I always assumed this was describing Oprah.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;I can express more emotion than laughter, anger and let's . . .&quot;<br /><br />Shooganooga<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-14 04:22:40
subject: <b>Of course it didn't!</b>
body:
That would be sacrilege!  Didn't you pay attention? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Catriona</b>, Countess of Options<br /> Still searching for that one great love...<br /><font color="gray"><i>Hunter</i></font><br />Eternal Wotmaniad Fangirl<br />But now you're cooler than Mr. T. - OA  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><font color="orange"><i>For Kory and Joe:</i></font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-16 18:01:04
subject:
<b><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/oh.gif" border="0" /> I always thought you guys were just kidding!!</b>

body:
I never thought that these things actually existed.. Then I went and searched for it (keep in mind I've been thinking that quokkas are fake since I've been here [about 9 mos], never looked before now) and I found a webpage on them! http://home.mira.net/~areadman/quokka.htm How suprised was I, right?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="blue"><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> Shameless Chatroom Flirt <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /><br />Warderette to Dodem <br />Aes Sedai to Jarrod<br />Alexia is my Cowgirl on shining mower <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> <br /></font><br /><br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-01 10:03:47
subject: <b>Quokkas Rule</b>
body:
Just like this theory. Is good. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>Prepare to experience the fury of ... </i></font><p></p>


created: 2003-11-09 16:23:29
subject: <b>right...</b>
body:
two things:<br />WHAT THE HELL IS A QUOKKA?<br />and<br />THAT IS THE STUPIDEST THING I HAVE EVER READ!<br />have a nice day<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">A closed mouth gathers no feet<br />Democracy is the art of saying &quot;nice doggy&quot; until you can find a gun<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/loial.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perrin.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-11-29 16:55:47
subject: <b>*agrees with Mormegil*</b>
body:
QUOKKAS<br /><br />LMAO @ mormegils profile<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">~TMM<br /><br />Commander of the Lemurs, Destroyer of Worlds<br /><br /><b><font color="red">This message was edited by 100 lemurs at 25:25:25 AM 13/39/3000</font></b><br /><br /><font color="red">Hail the lemurs. They know where you live.</font><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-06-09 01:37:44
subject: <b>Austrailia?</b>
body:
Austrailia is not in danger. I think that it has accualy bennifited from the invation of the...er....quokkka, was it? Well, all I'm saying is that i dont think Austrailia could GET much worse.'<br /><br />P.S. No, I have never accualy been there but i have talked to several people who have. They were never the same again.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/frown.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">The one and only Ring of Tamyrlin.<br />Yes, that Ring of Tamyrlin<br />Plauge of Chat Mods<br />The one chat would be so empty without<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-01-17 21:57:27
subject: <b>Vile assertion shooganooga!</b>
body:
Quokkas are actually cute and have some social value!<br /><br />Regarding the sound of a quokka bouncing off the car roof, this varies dependent upon the following factors:<br /><br />a) model of car<br />b) length of car<br />c) speed of car<br />d) how many spikes are embedded in roof of car


created: 2007-06-24 02:44:03
subject: <b>poor me</b>
body:
poor old Aussie me :-(...lol<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/egwene.gif" border="0" /> Pyro sedai of the Green Ajah <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/egwene.gif" border="0" /><br />sh! I'm planning world domination! <br />anyone fancy playing maidens kiss?<br />Video games: my anti real life. <br />rpgs did not replace my common sense, they just filled the void. <br /> <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-10 23:47:26
subject: <b>Another one</b>
body:
You guys are on fire with these theories.  I can't beleive I missed that.  <br /><br />One possibility why she waited.  Nynaeve was in a coma after the event, so Lan would have been tense, upset, etc and Myrelle would have felt it but wouldn't have known why.  The fealings she had are in line with what Lan could be feeling if he had been involved with a Foraken.  However, after Nynaeve recovered, he may have gotten better.  This would show Myrelle that it wasn't something so dire.<br /><br />As to why she didn't say anything earlier....  Well she is Aes Sedai.  They love to keep things to themselves.   Especially if she thought that the revelation that Lan was there ouwldn't change anything.<br /><br />Also this IS WOT.  None of the characters ever talk to each other.  Something that really bugged me is that the people protecting Rand have seen all the Forsaken.  If they talked, Halima would be toast.  But of course, they don't.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I killed Asmodean.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-11 10:01:33
subject: <b>Lan</b>
body:
is a LONG way from Myrelle at all these times, whether he's in Far Madding, Shadar Logoth or Tear. It's unlikely she could sense anything from him other than a direction and that he lives. Even if he was closer his emotions are probably held tight, he's not trying to be iron like Rand, but he's just as hard.<br /><br />As for Halima, I'm sure the Aes Sedai who faced her either have told Cadsuane that they faced a woman who could channel saidan, or they will reveal it soon. It's too important to keep to themselves. They don't know Halima or Aran'gar though, so they won't realise she is with the rebels. They may well see her at some point though...


created: 2003-01-11 20:11:48
subject: <b>Does it matter?</b>
body:
Egwene doesn't seem to know half of what she should.  In reference to Rand's visit to Elayne in WH, Elayne says that she told Egwene everything but the bonding, but in CoT, Egwene does not know about Aviendha &amp; Rand (her phrasing of her belief that Aviendha loves him strongly suggests that she doesn't remember Elayne telling her that.  She also does not remember Min's feelings for Rand, which she discovers in tGH, still knows about in tDR, never mentions to Elayne in spite of Elayne's fear of sharing him and Min being mentioned together in tSR, and appears not to understand any references to Min in LoC.  Egwene doesn't remember things very well.  Myrelle could have mentioned it, and it would have done no good.  One would think as well that Aviendha and Elayne could have come up with a subtle way to let Egwene know that Rand was there.  Finally, the two strongest women Elayne and Aviendha have ever met (except Talaan) disappeared from the Palace the same time as Rand, and when they feel a vast amount of saidar channeled where Rand is, they never make the connection.  Elayne knows of the existence of Choedan Kal access keys, and Egwene and Aviendha have seen them in Rand's possession.  Lan mentions danger in Elayne's and Aviendha's prescence, and Nynaeve snorts and touches the bag (with the access keys).  That should have been a message that she felt there was a solution to any danger in it.  Like always the characters are woefully inadequate at remembering anything that might be important, and all to often dismiss important stuff as minor details.  Heck if everybody in Mat's little group sat down and peiced everything out, they have between them the whole story that gave rise to the Seeker Mor's conspiracy theory, and evidence of the truth behind the damane/sul'dam distinction, not to mention proof of Suroth's underhanded dealings.  As it is, they think she's just a harsh ruler with too-great ambition.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-11 20:47:06
subject: <b>Yeah, well...</b>
body:
it wouldn't make a very good series of they all sat down and worked mysteries out now would it? Wouldn;t give us much to do either.<br /><br />&quot;In reference to Rand's visit to Elayne in WH, Elayne says that she told Egwene everything but the bonding, but in CoT, Egwene does not know about Aviendha &amp; Rand (her phrasing of her belief that Aviendha loves him strongly suggests that she doesn't remember Elayne telling her that.&quot;<br /><br />Perhaps she didn't tell her that part either, if she doesn't see it as something Egwene should know then she might not include it in &quot;everything&quot;.<br /><br />&quot;She also does not remember Min's feelings for Rand, which she discovers in tGH, still knows about in tDR, never mentions to Elayne in spite of Elayne's fear of sharing him and Min being mentioned together in tSR, and appears not to understand any references to Min in LoC.&quot;<br /><br />Where does it suggest she doesn't remember about Min? I must have missed it.<br /><br />&quot;One would think as well that Aviendha and Elayne could have come up with a subtle way to let Egwene know that Rand was there.&quot;<br /><br />They probably could have, if they had had time to plan it.<br /><br />&quot;Finally, the two strongest women Elayne and Aviendha have ever met (except Talaan) disappeared from the Palace the same time as Rand, and when they feel a vast amount of saidar channeled where Rand is, they never make the connection.&quot;<br /><br />Ok, but it's so much more saidar than either Nynaeve or Alivia could handle that clearly a powerful sa'angreal is in use, so there's no real connection to make, as far as they know any woman could be using the sa'angreal. We know they have to be strong enough through Forsaken comments, but they wouldn't.<br /><br />&quot;Elayne knows of the existence of Choedan Kal access keys&quot;<br /><br />She does? Again, I must have missed it. How did she learn of them?<br /><br />&quot;Egwene and Aviendha have seen them in Rand's possession.&quot; <br /><br />Seeing small statues in Rand's posession may well be a good indicator that they are some kind of objects of the power, but I don't see how they could suspect they are immense sa'angreal (well, ter'angreal linked to sa'angreal, thats even harder to guess).<br /><br />&quot;Lan mentions danger in Elayne's and Aviendha's prescence, and Nynaeve snorts and touches the bag (with the access keys). That should have been a message that she felt there was a solution to any danger in it.&quot;<br /><br />There are a lot of dangers in their world, and lots of ways to counteract them. I don't think it's reasonable to expect Elayne or Aviendha to recall Nynaeve touching a bag with who knows what in (to their view) when Lan mentions danger when presented with the massive surge of power. It's not like they didn't have other things on their minds at the time with Rand there.<br /><br />I agree that characters don't pass on information enough, but it's so easy to miss little details in real life, you can't expect characters to recall them all and work things out.<br /><br />Now if Daigian ends up in Egwene's camp and is walking along only to see Halima and only thinks: &quot;Stupid woman, flaunting her chest like that&quot;, then I'll start to see it as ridiculous.


created: 2003-01-12 16:59:48
subject: <b>She puzzled out what happened.</b>
body:
It is known that when the Eye of the World was created that Saidin was spun through Saidar to clean it. Given what she knows about Lan's location and who he was with and since she knows all to well about Nyneave's desire to heal anything and everything maybe she puzzled it out but was not sure. She didn't not sound sure when she started to talk.


created: 2003-01-14 19:33:16
subject: <b>Angry</b>
body:
This not sharing info pisses me off to no end. Egwene has taken it a step further, though, by forgetting who Rand is, the guy she once planned to marry. Now he's a monster capable of useing dirty, dirty compulsion. She doesn't even give him the benefit of the doubt anymore, she just assumes he did it. She's a control freak now, forgetting who her freinds are. Egwene is quickly becoming my least favorite character. And how has she not even casually linked the start of her headaches to Halima? Maybe she shouldn't be able to say, &quot;Halima is giving me headaches!&quot;, but she should be able to say, &quot;Isn't it add that halima's around everytime my headaches start and that shes the only one who can make them go away? Oh well, back to making descisions it is clear I'm not capable of.&quot; <br /><br />None of them even make an attempt at sharing knowledge. They don't need to sit down and compare every single note, but they could at least get the big stuff out of the way, such as, &quot;Oh that gargantuan burst of the power was just Rand cleaning the Taint, which is clean now, so you don't need those maddening gender biases any more.&quot;<br /><br />Sorry, just venting frustrations after a very frustrating book. I expected some threads and mysteries to be cleared up. Instead he gets everything murkier, his characters stupider, and even adds stuff, like those damn ghosts and the wheevils. well, at least he told us what Shadar Haran is, the actual dark ones, or as much as he can be, presence in the world.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Junius Maltby Lives!</font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-15 18:10:19
subject: <b>You are dead on Horatio</b>
body:
I agree completely.  Egwene has the most preposterous worldview of any WOT character.  Her assumption that what happened at Shadar Logoth had to be the Forsaken was the most mind numbingly stupid conclusion that we've seen in the series.  Certainly, the Forsaken would be high up on the list of suspects, but just to assume that it was them and then act on that assumption with everything going on in the world Rand, the Seanchean, etc, was just unbelievable.<br /><br />Her assumptions about Rand using compulsion are also totally inexcusable.  What blew my mind the most though, was her rediculous decision to take part in the cuendillaring of the harbor herself.  She told the Hall her plan, she knows there's an extremely high likelihood that there are Darkfriends in the Hall.  She knows that Darkfriends are unpredictable and could very well disrupt her plan.  She knows that she's too valuable to be in such a risky situation.  <br /><br />Yet, somehow for some unknown reason the news of Nicola disturbs her to the point where she makes a ludicrous last second alteration to her carefully thought out plan.  Frankly, I was thrilled to see her kidnapped.  Even leaving out her biased attitude towards the entire male gender, she is far and away the stupidest character in WOT, and she deserves everything she's gonna get.


created: 2003-01-15 20:43:25
subject: <b>Right on Dominion Guy</b>
body:
Right on. What the hell is the whole turning the harbor chain to heartstone about anyway? What the hell is that gonna do? Maybe she'll get some sense tortured into her, if we're lucky.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Junius Maltby Lives!</font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-15 21:32:48
subject: <b>Very good</b>
body:
I was wondering when or if Myrelle was going to say something. Never a sure thing in WoT. And of course, another secret doesn't get shared.<br /><br /> I agree whole-heartedly!<br /><br /> Light in the Night!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-15 23:54:22
subject: <b>Just a thought....</b>
body:
Maybe Egwene's newfound airheadedness and general pissy attitude lately could be from Halima's ministrations on her noggin.  Halima isn't just rubbing her head for the fun of it.  While she is rubbing her head, she is slowly and methodically hooking up Compulsion to Egwene.  She can channel saidin so anyone looking at her giving the massage would not see it.  I don't understand about the chain to the harbor, either.  Maybe once it turns to cuendalar (sp?) the links are fused together.  That would mean that the chain stays level straight across the harbor mouth.  It would not sag down into the water so ships can sail over it.  Just a thought.


created: 2003-01-16 00:05:32
subject: <b>To three in a boat</b>
body:
I want to say good call on catching this one. I was wondering when I read the passage what her message could be, but I didn't put two and two together. Well done. I completly agree.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Junius Maltby Lives!</font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-16 00:28:54
subject: <b>Good point about the headaches</b>
body:
Yeah, I had meant to include that caveat in my original posting.  There is, of course, the possibility that Egewene's irrational behavior can be traced to Halima's headaches.  After all, Halima does make some comment in WH about how her &quot;charge&quot; is well in hand or something like that.  I truly hope that is what is going on here, though I'm somewhat dubious considering the bizarre and irrational behavior of most of the WoT women, practically every single one of whom seems to think that she is basically omniscient (read: Cadsuane, Nyn, Aviendha, Every Single Sea Folk Woman, Joline, etc.).  But, we shall see, I'm hopeful that the headaches may offer some explanation.


created: 2003-01-17 12:54:05
subject: <b>communication</b>
body:
The one thing that bugs me the most is the lack of communication among the main characters. Especially when dealing with Rand.  All these people assume they know what Rand is doing. But is it really that hard to Travel and ask him for yourself. Elayne is by far the most irritating character in all of WOT.  She gets upset when Mat tells her that Rand will give her the throne, but heaven forbid that she ask him what he really meant. For some reason the women of WOT are getting more self centered and stupider.


created: 2003-01-20 11:51:30
subject: <b>Yes those WoT women get more ridiculous each book.</b>
body:
Someone should go ask Jordan if he makes them so stupid on purpose. The huge and ridiculous misunderstandings the women have when it comes to men and the total lack of exchange of information between characters who ought to be fairly close sets my teeth on edge. I find this weird tendency of Jordan in the last few books almost as annoying as the total lack of progress in CoT. Though I must admit he has always portrayed his female characters like that just never so strongly as in the last two books. I think that is why a lot of people hate to read about Elayne, Nynaeve or Egwene.


created: 2003-01-20 20:07:33
subject: <b>Excuse for Myrelle</b>
body:
Don't forget, Elayne was geographically closer to Shadar Logoth than Myrelle was, and she admitted she didn't have any certain proof that Rand was there.  Myrelle was near Tar Valon at roughly the same longitude but much farther north.  Even when Elayne gets to Caemlyn, she is still only operating on the assumption that Rand is there.  In other words, Myrelle might not have known.  She would likely be feeling Lan only faintly (remember, Elayne was relativley close to Rand when he was in Far Madding, but she couldn't say with any certainty where he was, and Alanna being almost as close though he might be farther away, claiming she thought she might have to go to Tear) and there would have been maybe a lot more places on a line from where she was.  Maybe she thought he was in the Two Rivers, or Ghealdan, or Amador or even Tarabon.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-20 20:23:56
subject: <b>Joining the Egwene-bashers above....</b>
body:
Another thing about her, she is extremely critical and assumes that Rand has used compulsion on sisters to make them obey him, and yet she never thinks for a minute of swearing fealty, when she herself did that very thing, AFTER the Wise Ones asked if the Salidar group would swear to Rand. Further more she spends a lot of time in CoT establishing to the reader that Aes Sedai are not a unified army, but rather an association of Ajahs which are a loose club of individualists, and no one can oreder their comings and goings. Therefore the idea of swearing fealty to an Amyrlin seat should be even more ridiculous than the idea of them swearing fealty to a ta'veren, especially as Aes Sedai would be on guard against any potential exceding of her authority at their own expense.  In fact, Rand's accepting oaths of fealty was not nearly as bad as Egwene BLACKMAILING the very people she is supposed to be leading and lawfully governing.  Regardless of what Taim told them at the time, all the Aes Sedai see their oaths as given freely and without being forced, even if it was a ta'veren thing that motivated them rather than any threat from Taim.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-21 15:15:02
subject: <b>heacaches</b>
body:
Something just occured to me.  With Egwene away from Hamila the headaches will stop.  Even Egwene is smart enough to say &quot;hey, wait a minute.  Maybe something or someone was causing them.&quot;  When she finally escapes or is rescued that could be the down fall of Hamila.


created: 2003-01-22 19:17:02
subject: <b>But Egwene won't because she's fickle</b>
body:
Egwene shifts her friendship and respect with the wind.  Remember EotW when she couldn't even listen to her future fiance's story of seeing a myrdraal, heck he didn't even try telling her because he knew she wouldn't trust him, and why?  She was sucking up to Nynaeve to be the Wisdom-in-training, and remained Nynaeve's faithful follower until Moiraine offered something better.  Then she dropped Nynaeve like a hot potato, and couldn't lose her long-awaited braid fast enough.  After that, she sided with Moiraine over all of her friends and spent tDR viciously and spitefully resisting any idea Nynaeve had because she felt Nynaeve didn't respect her as an equal.  Could her wretched performances in her last two pressure situations (Falme, while trying to sneak out; and Tar Valon, while confronting the Whitecloaks) have affected Nynaeve's trust of her?  And let's not forget her dragging Mat into her visits to Padan Fain which resulted in his near death because he was handy to steal the dagger from.  She sided with Moiraine against Rand in Rhuidean even though Moiraine was wrong!  She promised Rand Salidar's support, yet when the Wise Ones ask her if she'll support him, when she's in something of a position to actually come through on that support, she reneges.  Now in Salidar, she's reversing the few original thoughts she has had as a result of her own experiences in favor of Siuan's point of view.  Everything is now 'Siuan claimed' or 'Siuan often said.' Never mind the fact that every plan Siuan ever made has gone badly (let's get the Dragon Reborn into the Tower where we can control everything; let's be the ones to establish proof that Rand is the Dragon Reborn so we'll have control of him; let's keep it a secret and then tell the Hall suddenly; let's put an easily manipulated girl on the Amyrlin Seat; now that we're Healed let's claim our old jobs again).<br /> The other four Two Rivers people support each other and trust each other due to their common background, even Nynaeve and Mat, who dislike each other as much as any two main characters do.  The exception, who manipulates, spies on and assumes the worst of her fellow villagers, is Egwene.  <br />  Regarding the orginal point of this rant, she currently likes Halima, so Halima is always right and she makes excuses for her behavior, so she will overlook even the most glaringly suspicious facts about her.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-23 14:37:37
subject: <b>Elayne / Aviendha communicating with Egwene</b>
body:
&lt;quote&gt; One would think as well that Aviendha and Elayne could have come up with a subtle way to let Egwene know that Rand was there...&lt;quote&gt;<br /><br />Assuming they wanted to. Egwene meets with Aviendha in TAR, remember, and Aviendha doesn't mention anything about Rand being near the surge of the Power. You'd think that this would be important enough to warrant discussion at this meeting, really. I assumed that A didn't trust E fully any more, at least not with information about Rand. Seems odd considering how close they were when they were training together in the Waste; perhaps A knows E well enough to notice differences in her behaviour from Halima's tender ministrations?<br /><br />Speculation.<br /><br />Another example of characters not discussing things, anyway.


created: 2003-01-23 18:23:03
subject: <b>No, it's the bond</b>
body:
Aviendha and Elayne can't tell Egwene how they know where Rand is, and they have the actual brains as opposed to a certain other girlfriend of his who lets people know right and left due to her inability to keep a cool head in any sort of emergency.  Basicly, with the consequences a warder suffers when his bondholder is killed, Rand's girlfriends are liabilities.  If anyone finds out, they're targets, and the fact that Elayne is pretending her kids aren't Rand's indicates she and Aviendha at least have thought it through, and admit they are easier target than he is.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-05 02:42:17
subject: <b>someone Egwene trusts did not tell her about....</b>
body:
When Egwene meets Aviendha in Telandriod, Egwene talks about the Beacon of power and how the fear of the Forsaken is spurring them to make an alliance with the Black Tower.<br /><br />Aviendha KNOWS that Rand was at the center of that beacon, not the Forsaken. And she does not tell her, I speculate because she thinks the alliance with the Black Tower is a necessary thing, and she does not want to say anything that would jeopardize it.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-08 20:54:14
subject: <b>Yeah - Egwene bash!</b>
body:
Fantastic, everyone is saying what I'm thinking! Egwene is just a stupid bitch, no two ways about it. And a hypocrite - blackmailing someone into swearing on the Oath Rod is sooo compulsion. And of course, sexist - we have to put Aes Sedi in complete control of the bond with the Ash'aman (without using compulsion true, but she wants them in charge) because men have no brains. A bit fickle when she is always saying that practically no Aes Sedi but her has a brain! Keep up the good work!<br /><br />Hey, do you think the title of the chapter 'What the Oath Rod can do' was not refering to Egwene breaking the news about early death, but instead is a hint that Elaida is going to force Egwene to swear personal feality to her - just like Elaida said she would? Now I'm really starting to like Elaida!


created: 2003-05-09 13:03:04
subject: <b>Myrelle might know something different</b>
body:
While I like your theory about Lan a lot, I had originally thought of something different.<br /><br />I thought Myrelle was going to say something like: I went looking for Halima that day for something and she was missing from camp all day.<br /><br />Just a thought ...<br /><br />I agree with the CoT bashing, too. Especially when I thought some issues would be cleared up, maybe a couple people killed off, and instead we got a whole bunch of new characters to try to keep track of.


created: 2003-05-20 20:46:50
subject: <b>Good Theory</b>
body:
I liked your theory on Myrelle-she would have been hesitant in telling Egwene about it in Maigan`s presence. But in reply to the last posting before this, I don`t believe she would be hesitant about not seeing Halima {or seeing her} in fromt of Maigan.<br /><br />I agree with those who despise non-communication.  Rand has Nynaeve with him and still doesn`t know the 7th Seal was returned from Tanchico {albeit broken} to Salidar.  It is now in SAS possession.<br /><br />To Horatio Boobles and all other Egwene bashers:<br /><br />Maybe now that she is in the WT, progress will be made in WoT!  Away from Halima, she`ll have time to cogitate on the headaches, Suane` and Chesa`s warnings.  Egwene is NOT stupid. <br /><br />To The Ninth Rod of Dominiom:<br /><br />Egwene is in the WT because the Wheel put her there, to accomplish all the things needing to happen--such as uniting the Tower, disposing of Elaida, dealing with the Sanchean attack, getting together with Gawyn and a myriad of other things.<br /><br />To Shaved Ape:<br /><br />You got a full net on the first cast!The Cuendellar chain will blockade TV without Gareth Bryne having to be put into TV by Gateway, thereby avoiding a pitched battle, which is the last thing Egwene wants.  Bryne has mentioned several times that finding ships to blockade the harbors was a must, but he was unable to find them because the army Travelled to Dragonmount.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-26 13:02:51
subject: <b>Cannoli</b>
body:
You are becoming more and more an Egwene basher, completely blind to events controlled by the Wheel and Pattern.<br /><br />As for bashing Egwene about not swearing the Salidar group to Rand, that is absurd.  Neither have the Wise ones Aiel. Yet Egwene and the WOs support Rand.<br /><br />How dare critize Egwene for forcing oaths on her little group and completely exhonerating Rand for forcing the SAS sisters to swear to him at Dumai`s Well?  At least, Egwene had good reason to get some sisters on her side, even if by force.  The entire Salidar group was ignoring her authority, except for Siuan and Leane, and going their own merry way.  <br /><br />You have repeatedly called Egwene stupid, but I see her as extremely astute.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-06 15:34:56
subject:
<b>You are so on target here, Jofraz....  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /></b>

body:
Sometimes I think many of these posters are reading an entirely different WoT than we are.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>you know you can't leave Wotmania. It's kinda like herpes, you can just never really get rid of it.</i><br />Kit <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /></font><p><a href="http://www.cbgxtra.com/" target="_blank">Comics Buyer's Guide XTRA</a></p><p></p>


created: 2004-03-10 10:24:18
subject: <b>Egwane Not what alot of you think.</b>
body:
Although I belive that Egwane has forgotten much of the friendships of her youth and is distrusting of the man she wanted to MARRY. I don't think Egwane is what everyone says. Just think if you were in her place what would you do. Bring a man who channels ( who is suppose to go mad) to a bunch of Aes Sedai and say here he is please let him do whatever he wants. NO! She has to do everything in her power to pull the WT together and asking them to just accept Rand would cause further turmoil and dissention between the Aes Sedai. She also is under alot of stress. Think about it you are 1<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smackhead.gif" border="0" />19 years old and you are the Amerlyn, I mean come on how would that weigh on you. You would make wrong desicions just as easly. I am not saying that every thing she has done is wrong. Just saying stess is a very real part of life and other than Rand she is under more than everyone else in the series. <br /><br />Just my 2 coppers<br />Ashandari<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I killed the whole world, and you can too, if you try hard.<br />     -Lews Therin Telamon<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" />Me and Gabril have a wager.....and i never lose<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-10 23:40:55
subject: <b>Hmmmm</b>
body:
Either BA or trying to escape Sea folk.  From what we know, either is possible.  Neither can be dismissed at this time.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I killed Asmodean.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-12 20:16:07
subject: <b>I like it</b>
body:
I'll give Merillile the benefit of the doubt.  If I were in her shoes I'd be ready to snap to.  She most likely went north to take Talan to the Rebels.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Life is a journey of sorrow and agony, the only thing keeping us going is that light at the end of the tunnel.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-13 04:07:08
subject: <b>Also,</b>
body:
didn't Elayne say that Merilille would go wth the sea folk upon leaving to teach and that none of the apprentices could stay to make gateways?  Merilille would neither want to teach the sea folk for a year not lose a girl of talaan's power.  In Meri's position, I would do everything  could to get out of town with that girl.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">E.M.T.<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-14 12:47:22
subject: <b>Keeping the agreement...</b>
body:
Merilille may be trying to skirt the spirit of the agreement with the Sea Folk.  She is part of the agreement to teach the Sea Folk.  Unless she is Black Ajah (which is definately a possibility) she would feel bound by the new agreement.  Perhaps she's rationalized taking Talaan as a way to continue teaching the Sea Folk without being ordered around all the time.  <br /><br />Not that I believe that at all, but you asked for other possibilities.. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />


created: 2003-01-16 02:45:57
subject: <b>Strength</b>
body:
Merilille is not strong enough to weave a gateway by herself.  When she was sent to talk to the Borderlanders Reanne Corly had to weave the gateway for her to return (WH Expectations).  Whatever her reasons for running away, this explains why she took Talaan with her.  Talaan is strong enough to weave a gateway.


created: 2009-02-04 21:14:12
subject: <b>off to have her enrolled</b>
body:
Merilille most likely went to have Talaan enrolled as a proper novice.<br />The conversation depicted is rather humorous but makes sense for the most part. If Talaan were to go to the White Tower willingly she could stay willingly and would not be covered by the bargain. The bargain was created with the three Sea Folk Aes Sedai already in the Tower in mind. It simply means that they would have the option to go back if they wish. That would mean starting from the bottom of the pecking order so I can't really say how they would react to that.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Is this in the Old Tongue?<br />&quot;Bah weep graaagnah wheep ni ni bong!&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-10 15:17:17
subject: <b>Re:Messana is a Sitter</b>
body:
Ok, I'm at work and don't have the book with me.  I'm going on memory here - <br /><br />1) I thought when Messana was revealed/knocked out of her illusion, A said/thought it was a face she didn't recognize.  <br />If she was a sitter, A would have run into her at one point or another in Elaida's room - even if it was way back in the beginning after SS was stilled/sent on her way <br />(didn't she used to have meetings with all of them?)<br /><br />2) As for M knowing something was up - When A arrived through her gateway, walking through the library.. she ran into another sister who startled her. A said something to the effect<br />of walking through the peaceful library (or somesuch) and the sister said something to the efffect of &quot;especially for you&quot; and A didn't know what she was talking about.  The tower knew<br />that A had been ...demoted... as Elaida had asked for them to remove her and appoint another.  So at that point, everyone in the tower knew except A.  <br /><br />Messana, knowing this just from being in the tower while A was running to Tremalking, and also knowing the hell A put Elaida through...isn't it safe to assume that she knew Elaida was going <br />to get revenge?  She said as much when she said &quot;I told you not to go too hard on her...&quot;<br /><br />shrug. Just my thoughts. As I said, I don't have the book otherwise I'd give direct quotes.<br /><br /><br />TAS<br />


created: 2003-01-10 16:07:18
subject: <b>Mesaana NOT a Sitter</b>
body:
Old Arguement repeated here:  Sitters are Sisters who have had the shawl at least 100 years.  They are well-known and very closely watched Sisters.  For a Foresaken to make one disappear long enough to gain EVERY detail about them without notice is impossible.  As for the younger Sitters, who are only 40-60 years in the shawl, just as impossible.  Even more so considering they were appointed specially by the Ajah Heads yet Mesaana doesn't know what the Ajah heads are doing (ruling out Compulsion).  <br /><br />Woody


created: 2003-01-10 16:17:39
subject: <b>Who is Masaana</b>
body:
What do we know about a channeler trying to hide as a sister in the tower? First, they would have to hide the strength or their channeling ability without actually hiding the ability. Also, they would have to pose as a sister that either no one knows, or so few people know that they can be taken care of by compulsion.<br /><br />I think I have a much simpler answer: Mesaana is posing in the tower as a noblewomen on &quot;retreat&quot; just a Min did. She can continually mask her ability to channel, no one in the tower will think that they ever knew her, and she would be walking around wearing fine silk with bronze embroidery (or fine bronze with silk embroidery, I don't remember which).<br /><br />That being said, I don't think that we have been introduced to her alter ego yet, not that it matters, and she was probably waiting in one of the sitter's rooms for a report about the meeting with Elaida.<br /><br />Slam dunk - any thoughts?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Rob<br /><br />&quot;I am satisfied that your answer is correct. I am not, however, satisfied that your answer is right...&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-10 16:30:07
subject: <b>People, people, people</b>
body:
C'mon folks!  Could Mr Jordan have made it any more obvious?  Mesaana is Tarna Feir.  When the mask of illusions is ripped away by Alv, she is described as a blue eyed woman in a green dress with bronze embroiery.  Alv, doesn't recognize her, but she does seem familiar.  Alv leaves, and Mesaana is punished by the now known for sure, Shaidar Haran, the Great lord himself.<br />In the very next chapter, Pervara is visted by the &quot;new&quot; keeper, Tarna.  Mesaana has now reached the power behind the throne position.  Tarna is described as a blue eyed woman in a grey dress with crimson embroidery.  Different dress, because it was destroyed by SH, but still the same type.  Pervara describes her movements in a very detailed way.  She seems stiff, has trouble sitting still, shifting eyes around.  Mesaana is still very on edge regarding her recent punishment.  From a plot stand point, doesn't something strike you as odd that the fervent witch hunt with Pervara and the Black Ajah is casually shunted aside?  Any other time and she would have been taking her to be tested with the oath rod for black ajah.  I'm not saying compulsion, i'm saying writing to avoid plot entanglements.<br />Honestly, I didn't think Jordan could have made it much clearer.


created: 2003-01-10 17:33:52
subject: <b>About Tarna</b>
body:
Why would she spend so much time across the river stuck in a small hovel of a town if she was Mesaana. She could have Travelled across and claimed she found a boat.<br /><br />Tarna also took long to get from Salidar to Tar Valon. I doubt Mesaana would waste any time at all.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />   the Harvester of Mankind    <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />      the Thief of Years       <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />     the Slayer of Worlds      <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />     the Ultimate Reality      <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Blog - brucetheloon.blogspot.com</font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-10 17:58:13
subject: <b>Rob...</b>
body:
Actually, Jordan says we have been introduced to all the Forsaken's alter egos...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Four things cannot be hidden- love, smoke, a pillar of fire, and a man striding across the open bled.&quot;<br />                               -<i>Fremen Saying</i><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-10 19:08:39
subject: <b>Shaidar Haran/DO</b>
body:
Alviarin refers to Shaidar Haran repeatedly as the Dark One, but I don't this should be taken to be the final truth on the subject.  For all that Alviarin is head of the Supreme Council of hte BA, she is still extremely ignorant, and I would chalk up her calling Shaidar Haran the Dark One to her never having seen him before and being shocked by his little shielding trick (not to mention the TP use).  I don't think he is the DO, by any means.  Just a SuperFade.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Luck is a horse to ride like any other<br /><br />StaffWielder@wotmania.com</font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-10 20:44:03
subject: <b>looking familiar</b>
body:
If Mesaana is acting as a sitter, part of her disguise must be the &quot;ageless look&quot;. This might accound for Alvirian not recognising her, but still thinking she looks familiar. (not an earth shaking revelation I know, just an idle thought)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Insert sig here <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-10 23:38:52
subject: <b>Muahahahahaha</b>
body:
Messana is not an Aes Sedai.  I knew this before COT but this just proves my point.  M disguises herself from Alviarin because whoever she is in the tower looks just like her.  No ageless look.  A woman that Alviarin kinda recognizes.  I'm not sure on this part, I lent my book out, but I remember someone saying she knew all the sisters at least enough to put face to name.  I'm pretty sure it was Alviarn.  <br />Now who said that the woman A saw when SH entered the room was disguised?? come on people, why did the disguise fall &quot;You will not channel in my presence&quot;  sound familiar??  The woman we saw is M, her face as she looked in the AOL and as she looks in the tower.  This is why she had to kill A.  <br /><br />Responses to repsonse.<br /><br />SH is the DO, or he at least will be when his transformation is cpomplete.  Remember the armour falling???<br /><br />Tarna??  Possibly, but the travelling etc etc throws us off.  Unless it is a ploy just to meet up with the other BA who was there.  It still does not explain the disguise, or the lack of her ageless face.  Also, Tarna is Red as is Elaida.  I think (next reread couple of weeks lol) that Tarna and Elaida are connected in the past.  So, why would Mesanna allow Elaida to get rid of Alviarin just to take her place??  I'm really not sure about this although there is some more &quot;evidence&quot;.<br /><br />I'm not sure about this but I think that the wording of RJ's comment was that we have met all the forsaken.  I don't think alter ego's were mentioned, but I'm sure he wants us to think that.  <br /><br />In conclusion, M is not disguised as an Aes Sedai.  I knew it!!   I knew it!!  I'm leaning towards the noble woman idea.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I killed Asmodean.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-11 11:54:44
subject: <b>reply to one of wotenslaved's comments</b>
body:
<font size="-1"><b>SH is the DO, or he at least will be when his transformation is cpomplete. Remember the armour falling???</b></font><br /><br />A better explanation for him doffing his armor is that he's getting ready to rape Mesaana, just as he did to Moghedien during her time in the vacuole. That's why he tore her clothes off. That's why he asked Alviarin &quot;Do you want to watch?&quot; Having Alviarin watch her being raped would be that much worse of a punishment.<br /><br />I'm not saying that Shaidar Haran is or isn't the avatar of the DO, but Alviarin's assumption &amp; his armor falling off aren't conclusive pieces of evidence.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Olu Thales<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-11 18:49:40
subject: <b>the armour</b>
body:
I'm not sure if you meant this as a joke or not.  When the armour fell off, he was still clothed.  The interesting part is it appears he and Morridin have the same tailor.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I killed Asmodean.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-11 23:57:12
subject: <b>A little yes, a little no</b>
body:
1) It's not my idea, but I love the thought that SH was about to rape Mesaana. Great thought, I totally missed that.<br /><br />2) I guess I wan't clear enough, cause I though it went without saying, that when SH appeared, and Alvi saw Mesaana's face, it was her face from the AOL. <br />2b) Because neither Mesaana nor Alvi could touch the Source, Mesanna could not maintain her weave (shadows and siler lips, mouth, etc). She would automatically revert to her real face.<br /><br />3) I don't like the idea of just assuming that the Sitter;s are all who they say they are (or maybe appear would be better). They may have been there for 100 years, and then Mesaana killed her and took her appearance. Maybe not.<br /><br />4)It's not Tarna. After the talk with Pevera, it's not her. Mesaana wouldn't be in the position to come to others. All the other Chosen have their pawns come to them. I doubt Mesaana has to go acting to get others to follow her desires<br /><br />It's not Tarna.<br /><br />5) Sitters Present at the meeting: Suana (yellow), Doesine (Yellow), Shevan (Brown), Ferane (White), Yukiri(?) Andaya (?),  Talene (Green/Black), Rina(Green), Rubinde (Green)<br />these are the sitters lister at the meeting.<br /><br />My argument about the eyes still holds; she could have used illusion to change her face - nose, teeth, hair, eyes, etc. <br /><br />6) I still think it was too much of a dig when Mesaana said the comment about Alvi going to the Mistress of Novices. Too much of a shot for it to be &quot;just something she heard&quot; or something mentioned or threatend in th etime prior to Ali's return that AS mentioned or gossiped about.<br /><br />


created: 2003-01-12 10:23:56
subject: <b>Shaidar Haran's clothes</b>
body:
<font size="-1"><b>I'm not sure if you meant this as a joke or not. When the armour fell off, he was still clothed. The interesting part is it appears he and Morridin have the same tailor.</b></font><br /><br />So he removed his remaining garments after Alviarin left. No reason to rip up his cool threads like he did Mesaana's.<br />&amp; I think he almost certainly raped her, which is a greater psychological trauma than simply torturing her with the TP.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Olu Thales<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-12 18:34:13
subject: <b>She's a Green</b>
body:
We know from previous books that relations among the ajahs in the tower are not going well and that the sisters are all wearing ajah colors and their shawls.  So, when SH shows up, the illusion drops and Mesaana no longer has her &quot;Aes Sedai&quot; face that she's using, but she is still wearing the same clothing.  She's wearing Green.  I also believe she is a sitter.  As for Sitters being Aes Sedai for too long for someone new to come in, we know from Siuan that she sees some kind of puzzle in the fact that the sitters for both the Salidar faction and the Tower faction are surprisingly young.  On p. 441 she says, &quot;Andaya Forae was raised for the Gray, Rina Hafden for the Green and Juilaine Madome for the Brown.  None has worn the shawl more than seventy years at most.  Elaida has the same problem as we do, Mother.&quot;


created: 2003-01-14 19:52:06
subject: <b>Very probably not a new Sitter</b>
body:
I can't speak about Andaya and Juilaine, but Rina is the most likely new Sitter candidate for Mesaana as she's Green and Mesaana was wearing green. Rina is...dah dah dah dum...Elyas' Aes Sedai. Now, obviously she can't be Mesaana because Elyas hasn't felt his AS die (for Mesaana to take her place) and I find it extremely improbable that Mesaana would have slipped out and bonded a Warder some thirty or more years ago! Of course, Elyas could be lying about his AS' name - but why? And it could be a different Rina - but given Jordan's propensity for slipping characters in in a small way and then bringing them back later...yeah right. <br />Oh, BTW, something no-one has commented on - Mesaana has blue eyes. <br />So does Danelle. Who Alviarin knows, but dismisses - and so might not recognise her voice. <br />Any takers?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Ruriha Sedai <img src="images/personalsmilies/2150.gif" /><br />Aes Sedai of the Green Ajah<br />Officially On Holiday <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />Middle-Earth Kiwi <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" /><br />She Who Has Returned <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-15 03:19:23
subject: <b>Still don't think she is a sister</b>
body:
Aes Sedai's have histories.  Mesaana would have to change her appearance with the power to impersonate an Aes Sedai.  If that was the case then why would she not want Alviarin to see what she really looks like?  If she's wearing a disguise, why does she care?  The only thing that explains the disguise of shadows is that she is not wearing a disguise in the Tower, which means she can not be Aes Sedai, unless she could find a newly raised sister, without the ageless look, that happens to look just like her.<br /><br />All that not withstanding, I'm sure she will be eventually revealed to be an Aes Sedai, but it will forever bother me.  If I was a gambling man, I would bet Danelle.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I killed Asmodean.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-15 12:36:51
subject: <b>Virtual Proof Mesaana CANNOT be Aes Sedai</b>
body:
Kind of complex argument here, sorry about the length.<br /><br />Ok, part of this has been brought up before, but i've never seen the whole thing spelled out.  <br /><br />If Mesaana is Aes Sedai, it is reasonable to assume that she must have some way of making herself appear weaker in the power than she truly is.  Although she is not one of the stronger Forsaken, she would clearly stick out like a sore thumb with her true channeling ability.  Now, in the current Age, it has been made abundanty clear that, although certain characters have rediscovered the weaves necessary to completely mask their channeling ability, nobody knows of a way of altering the appearence of their strength in the power.<br /><br />However, perhaps this sort of talent was common knowledge in the Age of Legends, and something therefore that Mesaana could do with ease.  Fortunately, we have strong evidence indicating otherwise.  I direct your attention to Winter's Heart, Pg. 318 (Wonderful News)<br /><br />&quot;She [Cyndane] was a puzzle to Demandred.  At first he had thought she was Lanfear reincarnated . . . He had been sure, until Mesaana told him the girl was weaker than Lanfear.  Mesaana and the rest thought she was of this Age.&quot;<br /><br />So, we know with certainty that Demandred, at least, knows of no way to partially mask one's ability with the power, since he accepts Mesaana's argument prima facie.  Mesaana herself draws the conclusion that Cyndane cannot be Lanfear precisely because of this discrepancy in strength in the power.  Clearly, hiding one's strength in such a fashion is not common knowledge among the Forsaken.<br /><br />Of course, there is the possibility that Mesaana is simply lying to Demandred.  Why she would want Demandred not to think that Cyndane is Lanfear is beyond me, but the Forsaken are shifty folk, and their motives are often unclear to the readers.  Nevertheless, it seems like a bit of a stretch to assume that for some unknown reason, Mesaana is lying to Demandred, and that furthermore, she herself possesses knowledge of a technique completely unknown by him.<br /><br />So, that's that.  It bothers me a lot that the biggest piece of &quot;evidence&quot; for Mesaana masquerading as AS is not actually from the books, but rather RJ's comment that we have enough info to identify all the Forsaken.  Frankly, I don't put a whole lot of stock in that comment.  And I will be extremely dissapointed (though hardly shocked), if all the evidence from the books turns out to be mistaken and Mesaana does turn out to be Aes Sedai.


created: 2003-01-16 01:17:57
subject: <b>Mesaana not ageless</b>
body:
We know all the names of the sitters - the 3 browns are Shevan, Saerin and Juilaine.<br /><br />Besides, Mesaana looked &quot;just short of her middle years&quot; in other words, not ageless.  So she is either not an aes sedai, or a recently raised one to not have the ageless look.  She could also be a novice or accepted or non-channeler.


created: 2003-01-16 10:47:13
subject: <b>Strength in the Power</b>
body:
Just a thought... we don't know if there's any trick to make Mesaana appear the same in the power as the woman she took over.  I think it's unlikely.  This means that Mesaana would have had to have taken over an Aes Sedai of the same strength as her.  I think it would have been unlikely to find one that strong and impossible to make her disappear.  Therefore, I think Mesaana is hiding as someone who can't channel at all.


created: 2003-01-16 14:29:49
subject: <b>&#8220;A tantalizingly familiar woman who looked just short of her middle years.&#8221;</b>
body:
When Siuen and Leane appeared at Salidar, none of the sisters recognized them.  Even after they knew who they were looking at, they had to study the young looking women to match them to the ageless faces they remembered.<br /><br />So what if Mesaana has been wearing two disguises all along?  One, the big silver for when she was manifesting as &#8220;Mesaana the Chosen&#8221; for Alvirian; and the second, an ageless version of her own &#8220;just short of her middle years&#8221; face that she uses in order to pass as a sister.  It would be such a small disguise that motion and even touch would still not be enough to penetrate it, and to pass as a sister, she&#8217;d need it.<br /><br />Shaidar Haran&#8217;s arrival strips away both disguises, and Alvirian &#8211; like every sister we&#8217;ve been show meeting a sister who&#8217;s lost her ageless features &#8211; fails to connect the middle aged woman she&#8217;s seeing to an Aes Sedai she knows.


created: 2003-01-16 21:36:55
subject: <b>Mesaana, vis a vis first principles</b>
body:
I don't have much to say.<br />Mesaana is Silviarin, the new Mistress of Novices.<br />I am too lazy to compile the abundant evidence, thus I prove it to you with the simple concept of first principles.<br />Mesaana does the whole corrupt teacher thing, thus she went to the White tower and set up shop.<br />All the Sisters teach classes we are led to believe.<br />But only one is regularly in contact with novices and can shape and guide their evolution.<br />The Mistress of Novices, it's all in there.


created: 2003-01-17 02:39:09
subject: <b>Not Silviana - probably</b>
body:
Apart from the whole time issue on Silviana's appearance, which has been discussed extensively here, Silviana has dark eyes. Mesaana has blue. Not that it's proof, but a blue-eyed person is more likely to be Mesaana than a dark-eyed one. And Silviana only appears once - when she beats Elaida. After that she's offscreen. I doubt a Forsaken's alter ego would only appear once - Jordan likes to give a little more than that.  <br />Also, it is far more likely for Mesaana to be hiding as a Brown (Danelle) or even Green than Silviana, who is Red. She has been seen wearing a)Bronze with black embroidery and b)green with bronze embroidery. Since bronze is the connecting thread, if we're looking at her clothes Brown is more likely although Green is possible. But if she was hiding as a Red, wouldn't she be likely to be wearing red - even if only in embroidery?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Ruriha Sedai <img src="images/personalsmilies/2150.gif" /><br />Aes Sedai of the Green Ajah<br />Officially On Holiday <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />Middle-Earth Kiwi <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" /><br />She Who Has Returned <br /></font><p></p>


