# w_comment

created: 2001-04-04 00:00:00
subject: <b>Like this thoery</b>
body:
I just wanted to say that I like this theory.  If you take into account the theory about how the taint put Rand in contact with LTT it could possibly open up a future dragon, or another past dragon.  I don't think it is Logain though.  As for the criticism of hoping that this is the true last battle, how boring would that be if it was.  Think about the Age of Legands, healing severing was thought to be impossible, unraveling weaves was thought to be impossible, as is the degree of control that Windfinders have over the weather without terangreal.  Without the DO coming in and the resulting breakdown of the establishment all of the things that have been discovered now most likely would never have been discovered.  Sometimes in order to move forward you must first move backward.  Or in other words don't think of the Wheel as being stationary, but moving in a vertical motion as well, so that each peak is higher than the peak before and each dip not quite as low as the dip before.


created: 2001-08-27 02:47:56
subject: <b>Moridin can't be Shaidar Haran</b>
body:
I can't remeber what book it was in, maybe A Crown of Swords, but I remember Shaidar spying on Demedred and one of the other female forsaken talking to Sevanna. He was using fancloth (same stuff used for cloaks by warders) so he would not be seen. When Demendred left using a gateway he said he could feel the pattern being ripped open. Male channelers do not feel saidin that way only myrdraal. Also, he felt a pull to return to Shayol Ghul. He said he could not stay away from there for long periods of time and that he wanted to find a way around that. I dont think Moridin has that problem. And why would Moridin need to make himself look like Shaidar and use fancloth to spy on Demendred when he could just use the &quot;True Source&quot; to hide himself. Demendred would not sense the &quot;True Source&quot;.<br /><br />I'm still not convinced Moridin is Ishamael. Maybe I've missed some evidence somewhere. I dont see why Moridin cant be just someone else the DO has been using and preparing for whatever it is he has planed.<br /><br />As for the third face, I have no idea who it is or what it will have to do with the story.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">DEATH TO ALL CLOWNS.<br />The only good clown is a dead clown.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-15 16:26:33
subject: <b>Sounds good</b>
body:
I like the theory. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Once, I submitted a theory about how LTT connected with Rand. (or rather how the taint worked.)<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Though for some reason, it wasn't posted on the site... <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angry.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />But I don't think Logain is &quot;the next guy&quot;, it doesn't make sence to me.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">da'covale d'Rie Bolmdahl <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /><br /><i>Deyeneiye, dyu ninte concion ca ye</i> <font color="white">(no, tia Rie Bolmdahl)</font><br />I'm sleepy. <br /><br />currently: away</font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-29 21:39:59
subject: <b>Moridin = SuperFade?</b>
body:
I don't think so.  Remember how Moghedien says (before her mindtrap) that she reaches out to Saidar, but nothing's there.  Not severed, or shielded, at least not in the normal way.  Apparently, Shaidar Haran has some weird ability.  But then, Moridin (do we all agree he's Nae'blis?  I'm not completely sure, just mostly) might have some abilities, too.<br /><br />Besides, don't we get a Haran POV?  He doesn't sound like Moridin does to me.


created: 2002-04-10 11:58:41
subject: <b>the face</b>
body:
my guess is the third face is that of rand/lews after they merge together.  thus the reference to &quot;We (you, i, and the other) are destroyers,&quot; (paraphrasing)  this is also why the face is vaguely familiar and blurred - the merge has not been complete, and each sees facets of each other in the third face.


created: 2003-07-02 23:50:53
subject: <b>I sigh....</b>
body:
I sigh...your theory is...well I sigh...Lets just face it, Rand is crazy.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">PsyKyle<br /><i>Good heavens, that name sounds more cliche everytime I post...</i><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-07-03 00:01:34
subject: <b>AIELSEIADOON</b>
body:
The guy in the fancloth <i>was</i> Moridin.  He had the saa and he channeled the TP.<br /><br />ToT<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> The wheel weaves...and weaves...and weaves...and weaves <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /> It's time for a showdown <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gholam.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2007-05-17 16:28:03
subject: <b>moridion</b>
body:
moridon is ishamael<br /><br />i remember one day i sat and worked it out as to why but that was a while back.<br /><br />but in knife of dreams graeandal says something like, &quot;moridon was insane in his last life as ishamael, graendal had no doubts as to who he used to be&quot;


created: 2001-08-24 08:03:30
subject: <b>i reckon</b>
body:
bare with me:<br />nynaeve healed logain and he was as strong as ever but when she healed siuan she wasn't as strong <br /><br />i think taim will learn how nynaeve healed him and either use this knowledge himself or pass it on to another ashaman<br />and they will  be able to heal siuan to any sister who has been cut off from the souuce to her former strentgh<br /><br />i think male has to heal female and female has to heal male for stilling to be completely healed


created: 2002-01-31 03:08:54
subject: <b>ummm...</b>
body:
did you read all of winter's heart before you wrote this.  if you did then you must not believe that they cured the taint eh?  anyway SUPPOSSEDLY they cured the taint in winter's heart so that rules out on theory.  on the other theory.  that really is hard to make find since it is stated earlier(not sure where and could be wrong) that everybody has a fixed power limit.<br /><br />raistlin dourden<br />archmage darkelf<br />master of time


created: 2002-02-07 03:54:04
subject: <b>Re: Umm (and Re: I reckon)</b>
body:
Well, just because Rand removed the taint later doesn't mean that Logain wasn't immune to it before. The Forsaken were immune to it while it was still there, so it IS remotely possible that there was another way to do it, and Nynaeve found it.<br /><br />But I like the first theory better. What Nynaeve said was [paraphrase] &quot;Logain had to be as strong in the Power as he used to be, or else he was fearsomely strong in the Power before.&quot;<br /><br />This is her view, and rarely is one character's view on a subject enough to prove anything. <br />He might actually be stronger now. If so, and if he knows what caused it, and if he's smart, it would explain his research.<br /><br />However, I don't think that Logain, being an male channeler who was captured and gentled, is weeping over the fact that Aes Sedai have been stilled. Even though it makes sense that males heal females and vice versa...the only women that have been stilled permanently are Reds who attacked Rand. Why should he help them?<br /><br />One last thought to stir the pot: The only other plot thread that involves Logain is Min's vision of glory. Could that be related to his un-severing research?


created: 2002-02-26 16:43:21
subject: <b>Logain's Glory</b>
body:
I personally don't think that just researching something that someone else already did is going to give Logain the kind of glory that Min has seen around him.  I believe that it is going to deal more with the division of the Asha'man and his part in bringing them back to Rand, and (hey why not shoot big) Logain leading the Asha'man to take the black tower to Tar Valon and then onto the last battle.<br /><br />Ipkin Styld<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> the black cated court jester <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-05-28 19:00:11
subject: <b>wrong</b>
body:
logain may just realize that only men can unsever women and only women can unsever men, has anyone else noticed that?(ie. logain's healing vs suian and leanes)


created: 2002-10-06 17:20:35
subject: <b>healing</b>
body:
logain could just be trying to find a way to heal stilling in case it happens to anyone sworn to him


created: 2005-10-13 14:31:38
subject: <b>Who Cares</b>
body:
I think you are looking to far into this. He prob just wants the knowledge.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">WAFFLES!<br />Bonded to Model_02<br />Alicia wishes she was as hot as me<br />Member of Anatidaephobians Anonymous<br />Not-So-Near Second Cousin to Saeric Greylord<br />Officially better at hockey than DREWRULESWOT!<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2009-01-28 17:25:16
subject: <b>because Nynaeve isn't in the black tower</b>
body:
It's as simple as that. Obviously the ability to reverse severing would be considered valuable by any group of channelers. But at that point the ability as far as he could see only belonged to the Salidar group, giving them an advantage. At this point he was still unaware that an Asha'man had also been able to duplicate the feat. He wanted somebody in the Black Tower to learn the skill simply because it's a valuable skill.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Is this in the Old Tongue?<br />&quot;Bah weep graaagnah wheep ni ni bong!&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2001-03-23 00:00:00
subject: <b>Third Destroyer</b>
body:
While its possible that the third face is Moridin's. I don't think it was an something he did on purpose. Moridin seemed surprised when they crossed beams.<p>I'm not sure who this third face. It could be Moridin or it could be Mordeth. Either way I believe this face is a result of Rand's two wounds.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Corinth<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> Scholar of Light <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/128.gif" /> Webmaster of SIFpedia<br /><br />Money can't buy happiness, but it can rent it for a while</font></p><p></p>


created: 2001-08-14 01:18:34
subject: <b>confuscationalism</b>
body:
I think the face is Lews Therin.  I think the sickness that takes rand when not channeling is because LT is pushing to get loose.  He wants to channel.  I think that Moridin is &quot;the other one&quot; -- who i also agree is ishy.  the stresses of the job/not to mention the posession of LT inside rand could be all mangling up his psyche(all battling the taint for supremecy in who will make a madman of Our Hero)<br />that's what i think


created: 2001-08-19 12:35:49
subject: <b>Moridin and the third face</b>
body:
Does anyone remember when Rand is told in EotW that he and Ishamael are two sides of the same coin? I think that might indicate a connection to the third destroyer. Could be wrong though.


created: 2002-02-03 23:21:33
subject: <b>Also...</b>
body:
...relating to what I posted on the MB a while ago, I think there is further evidence of Moridin/Ishamael's connection with Rand.<br /><br />If you read the chapter What Is Written In Prophecy, near the end of TDR, the apparent Nae'Blis seems to tear a part of Rand's 'soul', or something.  I'm tired, I put it much better than this last time, with quotes and all, but have another read of that bit, pay special attention to the dialogue between them, and then Rand's feelings as he is attacked with the TP...<br /><br />I concur that the third face is Moridin.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Viran Yevel <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> RL Nae'Blis of sorts <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Masticator Extraordinaire <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> 100% Spettio devotee <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/oh.gif" border="0" /> Co-Founder of Absurdity Anonymous <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/oh.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-15 00:16:16
subject: <b>Third face jargon!</b>
body:
Well, it's just a theory, but here goes: Why not have that third face be the creator himself? It makes sense if you look at it this way -- instead of channeling, Rand is beginning to tap into that ultra-powerful source. The one that dude with the black things floating across his eyes used, only from the creator instead of The Dark One. This would explain his queeziness!<br /><br />If it's true, I'll eat my shoe ala Tucker Carlson!


created: 2003-08-02 09:50:45
subject: <b>Yes!</b>
body:
I like NoonyNick's idea!  Finally, a post with interest!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Brianne Aes Sedai, First Weaver of the Yellow Ajah<br />Bonded to Daniel Gaidin<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />High Priestess of academic theories<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" />Amyrlin Seat of the Wheel of Time Club in Oklahoma City<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /> <br />'Helluo librorum'<br />'Bene legere saecla vincere.' <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-02 04:37:19
subject: <b>The Wheel Turns</b>
body:
I think the other guy was the Dragon before Lews Therin, he had him in his head, just like Rand has Lews Therin in his head


created: 2005-02-15 20:59:01
subject: <b>interesting</b>
body:
im not saying yes, and im not sayin no, im just sayin interesting<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">-Sabin<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-04-11 00:00:00
subject: <b>Maybe a DUNE thing will happen</b>
body:
Maybe by freak accident the babies will survive and *know stuff*.  Or not.<p>Your.Master <img src="images/king.gif" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Your.Master <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /></font></p><p></p>


created: 2001-06-12 11:20:21
subject: <b>DOh!</b>
body:
Of course they wouldn't know stuff, they would be bonded to Rand; the quote says so<br />anyway, Avi is not pregnant.. i think<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i><br /><br />Some times nothin' is a real cool hand.</i></font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-23 15:49:30
subject: <b>dune stuff</b>
body:
I think RJ has got enough Dune stuff going on already.  If Avi were pregnant (which she's not)  I really don't think he'd go that way.  Besides, if he was, then the other Aiel, or at least Amys, involved in the Elayne/Avi bonding ceremony would have realized that she was pregnant while it was going on.  If at that point they hadn't or couldn't stop it, she would have been digging a hell of a lot of holes with spoons afterwards.  Or running laps naked, take your pick which you like better. <br />   Not to mention that if Avi were pregnant and the others didn't pick up on it, Elayne would know by now.  And somehow I doubt that if Avi were preggers and Elayne knew before she had her &quot;turn&quot; with Rand that RJ wouldn't clue us in.  He likes to keep things hidden, but that scene would have been way too amusing.<br />  Anyway... So, I'm leaning towards the idea that Min's viewing of Avi's kids have to do with her bond with Elayne.


created: 2001-07-25 18:50:17
subject: <b>Just a comment...</b>
body:
I don't necessarily think that Avi is, pregnant, but I don't think that this theory rules it out completely.  Remember, Aviendha and Elayne were &quot;born again&quot; through Melaine.  I think the weaves would hurt Melaine's unborn children because they affect her uterus, to connect Elayne and Avi to her.  The weaves wouldn't have to pass through Avi's unborn child, so they would not hurt it.  Just an idea.


created: 2001-09-13 02:42:43
subject: <b>well</b>
body:
it was actually Amys!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I am dead <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /><br />I mean Death <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" />The Darkness to <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> balance the light<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" />More than a little insane<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br />AND MY HERO TALKS IN CAPITALS<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /><br /> <br />     &#223;&#174;&#220;&#169;&#163;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />The grave is no bar to my call - inscription on a mighty HORN</font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-15 20:30:02
subject: <b>Maybe this bonding just....</b>
body:
Maybe this bonding just deformed the little tykes and that id the &quot;something odd&quot; thet min saw.


created: 2001-10-29 14:47:06
subject: <b>Minus sign on the test</b>
body:
Rand and Aviendha had sex months ago.  I kinda think there would be evidence by now.  She might even be showing at this point.  I believe if on adds up the time since the battle of Cairhien (night before Nynaeve and Elayne borded ship during riots), several days after the gateway incident, the (WOT) week in Cairhien, the several weeks acquaitance Rand and Bashere develop before Taim shows up, the month or so until Aviendha goes to Salidar, and the month spent there, the number of days from the first snow until Egwene meets the Andoran nobles, and the month until se travels to Tar Valon (the same day Elayne met the Borderland rulers), and there is no way she wouldn't know or let Elayne know, if both were pregnant, and Elayne wouldn't have let it slide after the way Aviendha has been on her about diet, excercise, etc.  Not to mention Aviendha said that she herself &quot;will not drink the tea&quot; implying she has yet to conceive.  Finally, if she is her behavior has been utterly reprehensible, especially in light of her concern that Elayne do all the right things, and so forth.  Since, say, Lord of Chaos, she has encouraged Ebou Dari women with violent intentions, stayed in danger (gateway to Andor) which could have killed her child(ren), allowed it to pass unremarked in the Adoption ceremony, despite Elayne's concern about the effect on Birgitte, and got drunk enough to forget the fact that Elayne is expecting twins.  Elayne mentions her restricted diet and that she only minds when Aviendha &quot;was gobbling pastries.&quot;  It is hardly in character for Aviendha to keep her sister from doing things not conducive to a healthy pregnancy, and then indulging herself when she would be much farther along (also Min guaranteed the babies would be healthy and strong, and people who don't have prescient friends go for a couple of weeks without having to go through all that eat right and don't drink crap).<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-15 15:19:31
subject: <b>Re: Laying One Theory to Rest</b>
body:
Maybe she was pregnant and that is why her baby's will be different like Min predicted.  I don't know just thought I'd throw that out there.


created: 2002-06-28 06:56:46
subject: <b>Baby Bonding</b>
body:
I don`t think Aviendha got pregnant having sex with Rand, but the bonding in Caemlyn may have changed that. That could explain why Avi`s not showing any sign of pregnacy.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /> Shannath, the Eyeless-roaster.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> Shannath, the Eyeless-roaster <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-16 12:49:39
subject: <b>Maybe she is</b>
body:
I think it is possible that she is not only because of Mins viewing but also the fact that while Elayne was on a strict diet Avi was gobbling down lots of food.<br /><br />I am still undecieded. i guess we will have to wait until November.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-green.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former.&quot; <br />- Albert Einstein<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-07 16:29:02
subject: <b>She's pregnant</b>
body:
I think she is still pregnant.  RJ love to play with irony and then reveal it later.  Like when he talks about elayne eating all the healthy food because she is pregnant, and aviendha getting eggs and stuff because they don't know that she is.  This just makes it more convincing to me that avienda is pregnant now.  I also agree that this linking could be the reason that Min sees the kids as &quot;different&quot;.  I guess we'll just have to read and find out, hahahahahaha.<br /><br /><br />PS. Im still the real Car'a'carn<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /> the real car'a'carn <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-15 09:30:32
subject: <b>And Min???</b>
body:
Aviendha isn't pregnant. But the problem is the &quot;something odd&quot; about her babies. I think Aviendha will have twins and so will Min. Let me explain. Min couldn't have viewings about herself, maybe the things she saw on Aviendha is about her. This could explain the &quot;something odd&quot; and the babies will be strong. Min is Rand's &quot;official wife&quot; and they make love all time, I think she's pregnant or will be soon.<br /><br />I've a question. Min has viewings, she help Rand with her gift. Elayne can make ter'angreals, I think she will repear or make another Choedan Kal. They're important, but I don't see why Aviendha is useful. I love the character and she has to be important otherwise, RJ wouldn't create her, but I wonder what she 's used for. Someone could tell me???<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/min.gif" border="0" /> &lt;== Is she Min? I've always thought she has brown eyes</font><p></p>


created: 2002-12-24 00:10:13
subject: <b>hmmm...</b>
body:
maybe Min's viewing wasn't about Rand and Avi's kids.  Perhaps she performs one of the first-sister ceremonies for someone in the future and those are the kids Min's viewings are about- her &quot;kids&quot; being &quot;born&quot; fully grown would certainly be a little odd.


created: 2003-06-13 16:07:18
subject: <b>may i point out</b>
body:
May I point out that Min sees the FUTURE! She didn't necessarily mean that Aviendah was pregnant, it meant that she was going to get pregnant. Anyways, she said that Aviendah would have kids, and that's the final word.<br />Also, she said that something would be different about the kids. Monaelle had no way of knowing if Aviendah was pregnant, that might very well be the source of why the kids were different!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Shadow Spinner <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" />Spin nightmares out of shadows<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2008-08-07 21:24:14
subject: <b>come on ppl</b>
body:
if Avi was pregnant there was only one time that could have happened okay....<br />how long ago was that?<br />She would have been showing a rather enlarged belly by now!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I may be crazy but im still more---- OHH SHINY PENNY!<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Fear the ninja smiley<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ninja.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />ohhh pretty fire..Most not touch....OUCH IT BURNS!<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-03-27 00:00:00
subject: <b>Fuel for the fire</b>
body:
On page 321 of WH Tuon is thinking about herself and makes the following observation...<p>"When she forgot to keep a stern mask, her heart-shaped faced belonged on a michievous child."</p><p><br /></p>


created: 2001-04-01 00:00:00
subject: <b>I think it is true, but more important than that.</b>
body:
You see, Tuon has two faces, one stern and artificial, the other smiling, humane. She has to use the first more often. Now, perhaps Mat will change that. Simply put, the foretelling might have been about Mat changing Tuon's character in some important dimention.


created: 2001-12-27 19:55:52
subject: <b>ummm ok</b>
body:
the laughing face was the man called Bors, thats who i think it is, or more commonly know as Jaicham Carridin, the whitecloak ambassador that was kill in tPOD


created: 2002-09-15 17:47:19
subject: <b>I think that you might be right.</b>
body:
Some how Tuon has to come into Mat's life, and some how the rest of his viewings must come to a head.  I realize that Tuon has come into his life, but I think that the reading that Lidya gave Tuon is what makes her smile when Mat says that he is taking them with him, which of course completes his viewings and her's in a way!  Nice job.  I personally hadn't realized that myself.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="blue">Lady Faile t'Bashera</font><br /><font color="darkblue">The last of the Gunslingers and of the Katet 19</font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/disapprove.gif" border="0" /><br /><font color="green">Urza's and Jojjo's Aes Sedai!</font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shakefist.gif" border="0" /><br /><font color="blue">Aes Sedai to Rand the Dragon Reborn</font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br /><i><font color="red">New mistress to Sheep and Delireus!</font></i> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-12-20 05:41:15
subject: <b>tuon smiling?</b>
body:
We havnt seen tuon smiling yet. How do u know Tuon is that sort of person. She could have a falie type personality.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Lord of the Morning <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-02-20 11:16:55
subject: <b>Yes! Yes! YES!</b>
body:
I never thought of that, but I agree completely!<br /><br />Although I don't think it has anything to do with her secret smiles. Those scare him. I think it has to do with his love for her, because how many times had he commented on how beautiful she was when she smiled, or when she laughed? He especially noticed this when they were playing Stones together, and she laughed several times, and seemed like a &quot;different person.&quot;<br /><br />Aww that sounds so sweet and romantic, I love this theory!


created: 2006-02-05 14:14:20
subject: <b>Sorry - dont buy it</b>
body:
I just cant agree with this one. I dont associate Tuon with humour at all. Shes clever and calculating but not really taken with bouts of laughter at all. I dont think it's due to Mats personality either - he jokes alot but he's not usually the one laughing. I dont know who the laughing face could belong to - maybe something still to come?


created: 2007-02-04 21:53:08
subject: <b>I disagree</b>
body:
Mat is the trickster Archtype.  He's a joker, a prankster and generally described as often grinning/smiling.  He enjoys having a good time, which also implies a lot of smiling.  Happy/carefree(at least he was).  Even more smiling.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Proprium est pro insectis<br /><br />Fluffy says you walk the plank.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-03-23 00:00:00
subject: <b>Moiraine does not have blond hair!!</b>
body:
Moiraine does not have blond hair.  Moiraine had "dark ringlets"( from EotW, where Rand first meets Moiraine) so she has dark curly hair.  Also, several times in the books it mentions Moiraine having DARK EYES, like any Caihirien does.  So Cyndane's new body is short.  Big deal.  It doesn't make it Moiraine's body.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Vercingetorix<br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/803.gif" /><br />Theory Post Admin<br /><br />I went to the doctor the other day and all he did was drain some blood from my neck.  Don't ever go to Doctor Acula.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-03-24 00:00:00
subject: <b>Excuse me?!</b>
body:
As mentioned, Moiraine has DARK hair, and DARK eyes. Cyndane has SILVERY hair and LIGHT BLUE eyes. Lots of people are short. Also, MOIRAINE IS NOT DEAD!!!!! SHE IS COMING BACK!!! The indications are that Thom and a few others will come to her rescue. That is, unless you are sugesting Moiraine will come back in Lanfear's body and scare the heck out of everyone ?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Ruriha <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-04-06 00:00:00
subject: <b>Almost...but not quite</b>
body:
This theory would be acceptable if we had not read the previous books, but I believe we all have, and it clearly states in them that Moraine has DARK HAIR, it would be a nice plot twist though.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I'm not dead yet<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-04-06 00:00:00
subject: <b>Bah</b>
body:
Cyndane is most definetly Lanfear ressurected, due to her referign to Rand as Lews Therin. in WH, she also talks about how she would have turned on the DO himself for him, but he rejected her, so she was going to kill him. Rand hasnt had any other contact with a female channeler allied to the DO who would do anything for him. Only Lanfear. Her lower-amount of power is punishment from the DO for failure to due his bidding, and all her running around killing ' Innocent ' Darkfriends most likely. Somewhere it says that a Darkfriend's die when ending either land of the Finn, and you dont get much bigger a Darkfriend than one of the Forsaken/Chosen. Lanfear is ressurected, but Moiraine remains in the land of the Finn until Thom & unknown others go to save her.


created: 2001-05-16 17:29:36
subject: <b>Body Snatcher</b>
body:
Okay....If, and this is a big IF, Lanfear is reincarnated or &quot;merged&quot; with Moiraine's body, then how in the world is Thom going to rescue Moiraine and marry her??<br /><br />Now, this could be a viable theory, even with the difference of hair and eye color, because it is reasonable to assume that hair color can be changed by a simple herb (such as Nynaeve did with Elayne and her hair with Luca's menagerie) and that eye color can be changed with a simple parlor trick done with the OP.<br /><br />By the Gods, I am good. <br /><br />Anima Sedai <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /><br />Keeper of the Chronicles for the Green Ajah<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Anima Sedai <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br />Keeper of the Chronicles for the Green Ajah <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Married to the Dark One<br />Mother of the Dark One's Naeblis</font><p></p>


created: 2001-05-31 08:18:12
subject: <b>Cyndane</b>
body:
Type and strength of Power is tied to the soul, as proven by Aran'gar/Balthamel. However, for one reason or another, Lanfear's strength in Saidar has been reduced as Cyndane. In one Forsaken meeting, Demandred says he believed Cyndane to be Lanfear restored, until Mesaana told him that Cyndane was weaker than Lanfear. Nice trick on the DO's part to increase confusion among his Chosen at the same time.<br /><br />Now, Lanfear was by a great margin the strongest female Forsaken, as evidenced by Cyndane's first appearance, with Moghedien at Graendal's place. Graendal is wondering who this arrogant young wench is, then notes with surprise that Cyndane is stronger in the Power than she is. If Lanfear's strength was reduced, and is yet greater than other female forsaken, it becomes remarkable how Rand managed to survive her attack at the docks, considering both used angreal and Lanfear had much greater knowledge of inflicting pain. But that's history.<br /><br />Moiraine is not back yet, and she won't be in Lanfear's body when she gets back.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> Call_me_Tim <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> Call me Tim <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-15 11:52:09
subject: <b>No strong female??</b>
body:
I was just thinking about Nynaeve, Alivia, Elayne, Egwene, Aviendha, Jolein, Moiraine, Cadsuane...<br /><br />Enough is enough...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b><font color="dark yellow">A</font><font color="red">n</font><font color="orange">an</font><font color="red">k</font><font color="dark yellow">e</font></b><br />Creator of the <i>Glistering and Shining New and Improved Advanced Warder Spoon</i><br />Warder to Corail<br />Disciple-restaurator of WOOPAH!&#8482;<br />Vice-President of <b>BucketBaby's</b> fanclub -She Rocks!<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-14 17:26:40
subject: <b>Balthamel? Female?</b>
body:
Wasnt it Aginor who made the trollocs, hence he was the one to come back in the female body?  Book 9, he remembers fondly making the trollocs and in Book 1, it mentioned Aginor as the creator of the Trollocs<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Mikel Gaidin <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lan.gif" border="0" /> <br />Bonded to Aida Sedai<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-16 22:24:53
subject: <b>interesting but no!</b>
body:
it certianly would add an exiteing twist but in one of the other books i can't remember which but th DO needs a living body to put someones soul into it cause Aran'gar and Osan'gar were put into the bodies of captured Shenierians:0=<br />


created: 2001-11-05 19:20:45
subject: <b>YOUR WRONG AGAIN</b>
body:
You said that there is no good female with a power anywhere close to matching Rand. Your wrong, Nyneve and Cadsuane are both extremly strong in the power and have never been derecly comparied to Rands power (that I can think of).<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> Master of Wolves <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> King of Fire <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Weilder of Balefire <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br />      Maldais <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/myrddraal.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-13 22:53:58
subject: <b>uhhhhh</b>
body:
WT!? Nynaeve is stronger than Moghedien. Even if Lanfear was stronger, MOggie was at LEAST in her ballpark, seein as how they are both forsaken. Which means that Nynaeve is close in the power to Lanfear. And she hasnt even reached her full potential yet. And Lanfear was at LEAST as strong as Rand in the OP. So i would think that Nynaeve is almost as strong as Rand.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rand.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Kneel and swear to the Lord Dragon, or you shall be knelt! - Mazrim Taim<br /><br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-15 14:46:25
subject: <b>Moraine's deal</b>
body:
So Moraine and Lanfear fell through the doorway in which people get to &quot;make a deal&quot;. S'pose that Moraine asked to be the same strength as Lanfear. So the Aelfinn say &quot;okay&quot; and &gt;zap&lt; Lanfear now is the same strength as Moraine. <br /><br />That could explain the decrease in Lanfear's strength. There certainly was deal-making&quot; going on through that doorway. Lanfear may have requested that they keep Moraine prisoner for all we know.<br /><br />BB


created: 2002-05-18 19:25:04
subject: <b>Why Lanfear can't be in Moiraine's body</b>
body:
The first time Cyndane is seen in the story, when Moghedian and her go to Graendal, it says that she is short, which would show support for her being in Moiraine's body, but, it also says that she has silvery blonde hair....and that is NOT in support to this theory...just my three and 1/3 cents. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />


created: 2003-07-08 14:55:19
subject: <b>Appearances</b>
body:
Hate to point out the obvious, but Cyndane doesn't look anything like Moiraine! She's got blonde hair. <br /><br />Cyndane is probably some random body snatched out of the borderlands or somewhere.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>Master of the Revels</i><br /><br /><b>If I can't dance, then I don't want any part of your revolution</b></font><p></p>


created: 2004-11-22 13:06:22
subject: <b>rand is way above the others</b>
body:
when nyneave threw all of moghediens power at rhavin, he had enough power to fend of the attack with ease, (that he was harmed at all was due to the element of suprise). rand states that he was stronger than rhavin, but only by a whisker. therefore rand is a fair way above moghedien. lanfear is only a whisker below both rand (and ishmael, the strongest forsaken) this means that a channeler of lanfears strength would be VERY useful, afterall, didn't alvia have an angreal when she faced lanfear, and didnt lanfer handle aviendha and egwene with ease BEFORE she picked up the angreal on the wagon. by the way, moghedien and nyneave are equal, nyneave beat her in tanchico because she sent the sad bracelets at moghedien<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> let the speedbart ride again upon the winds of time <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Made the second post on the new WoTMB2 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-03-29 00:00:00
subject: <b>Taim=Demandred =)</b>
body:
Well hey, guess what,Taim is Demandred.  The scene takes place at dusk just before night sets I believe.  Obviously, it would be hard to make someone out that is say... 100 yards away.  He obviously isn't going to recognize somebody that far away.  And, how would he recognize the colors of the Asha'men's clothing?  He looks at the man and says, Gee Golly Aunt Bee, that an Asha'man.  Well, he doesn't say it exactly like that but he does say that it is an Asha'man.  He must be use to seeing the clothing warn by the Asha'men.  He obviously would know what the Asha'men are because he is a forsaken and he knows these kind of things but would he know what the clothes look like?  And finally, on one of the last pages in the last chpater, Demandred makes a comment about Generals leading their soldiers and not fighting against them.  I don't have book with me cuz i am at school but I will follow-up with another post with the exact statement by Demandred.  Take that anti-Taimers.


created: 2001-04-01 00:00:00
subject: <b>And take that, too!</b>
body:
Where do the books say that Taim knows Damer so well? When Rand picks who should go with him after Dumai's Wells, Damer is still a Dedicated. And, moreover, he does not encounter Taim after this point.<br />I admit the scene surprised me... but after some thinking, I came to the conclusion that nothing really has changed. JR is just toying with us a little. Mr. J., very bad of you, if true!<br />Whitefire.


created: 2001-04-07 00:00:00
subject: <b>Implications of Taimandred Debunking?</b>
body:
Having just re-read the now-infamous Demandred passage, I'd have to say that the Taim theory looks rather dubious (and this is coming from a former believer). When asked about a lot of the mysteries --Asmo's death, eg.-- that frustrate readers of this series, RJ always talks about how things should be "intuitively obvious" to reasonable observers. That said, the claims that Demandred could have known Damer and not recognized him are silly, because they defy the intuition of the passage. He has time to stop and observe them in some detail (the woman, "beautiful in a wild way"), consider whether or not to kill them, and finally to watch Damer's head turn toward him, just before the Asha'man's attack. Demandred talks like a man who feels that he has a clear view of the group (enhanced by the power?), yet doubts that Damer "could see very far." The distance between them, then, doesn't seem all that tremendous, at least with regard to Dem.'s abilities. The time he has to look at them is too long, his level of description too precise to be unable to recognize them. Damer looks right at him --wouldn't Taim recognize him then at the least?<p>What hasn't been answered is this: what the heck was Demmy cackling about at the end of LoC if he isn't Taim? It seemed so clear that it was the Tower kidnapping and subsequent appearance of the Asha'man at Dumai's Wells. Now that Dem probably isn't Taim, what the heck was going on in LoC? <br /></p>


created: 2001-04-26 00:00:00
subject: <b>Just some info from WH</b>
body:
The fight DOES NOT take place near dusk.  The scene where Demandred takes place like this.  Chapter: "With the Choedan Kal" page 644-645 "A bald-headed old man with a fringe of white hair was limping along between two women, one of them beautiful in a wild way, the other stunning.....,but Demandred doubted a fellow that decrepit could see very far......He was a general, a great general, but generals did not have to fight along-side the men they commanded!"  Now if he was close enough to think the man was decrepit and that the women are beautiful I would think that he would be able to recognize somebody he had been around before.  He was at Dumi's Wells when Damer was picked by Rand or by him (can't remember).  Also, if he was Taim wouldn't he know that there are old men in the Black Tower and that Rand had picked one to stay with him.  Considering the time and place would not dismiss someone that even closesly resembles that description.  The comment about being a general is just saying that he is not used to being in the middle of a battle but directing it.  The prove about the time of day comes from Osan'gar.  page 456 "He was not good at judging time by the sun, but it was obviously still short of noon.


created: 2001-05-22 15:48:47
subject: <b>Predators</b>
body:
<br />Taim isn't Demandred for a few reasons I can think of. <br /><br />1) The Forsaken act like Predators each holing up in a specific kingdom, meaning that they would not appreciate competition meaning that two would never try to claim the same area, they would robably end up killing one another.<br />This leaves one to believe that because Osan'gar was the Forsaken in the Black Tower, Taim wouldn't have allowed him inside the place even for his basic training. They all fight amongst themselves to much. Because of this I think Taim may not be Demandred but still could be promoted at a later date to be one of the new Forsaken (because face it they need to do more recruiting think about they've lost maost of their male members some permeantly), and Taim may be able to acend to that type of power. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />2) Taim and Demandred don't seem to know about each others plans. I mean why order someone something twice it's a futile waste of effort, but i doubt Demandred could stand the repeatition. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />3) Taim has lead men he commanded his dragonsworn in Saldaea he fought alongside them and I doubt he is afraid of a straight up fight, now in WH demandred seems cowardly and runs away something so very untiamish. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-05-30 15:45:48
subject: <b>Taimandred can't be dead. He was never alive.</b>
body:
Damer Flinn was the very first candidate tested at the Black Tower. On a later visit by Rand, we see Flinn blowing up a rock and nearly getting his own head taken off because he forgot to weave a shield against the debris. <br /><br />At Dumai's Wells, Flinn is among those brought by Taim. He is also one of the Dedicated chosen by Rand to stay as his bodyguard, something Taim would take note of.<br /><br />After the attack at Cairhien, Rand tells Taim to add seven names to his list of deserters. Gedwyn, Rochaid, Kisman, Torval, Flinn, Narishma, and Hopwil. And tells him he wants Dashiva's head on the traitor's tree the next time he visits the Black Tower. Only Rand new that Flinn, Narishma and Hopwil were not truly deserters.<br /><br />Now how could Taim not know Flinn well enough to recognize him? Sorry, it fails the smell test.<br /><br />Going back to the attack of the renegade Asha'man, they were told to kill Rand by Taim, Demandred, and Moridin all separately, according to Kisman's POV after running from Rand in Far Madding.<br /><br />Lastly, Demandred's comments about not fighting alongside his men as a general. When Taim was captured, it was during a melee when he got knocked from his horse.<br /><br />Taim may very well be a puppet of a Forsaken, and if so my money is on Mesaana, but he isn't Demandred.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> Call_me_Tim <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> Call me Tim <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-20 02:07:36
subject: <b>Right on Tim!</b>
body:
Good Job, Call_Me_Tim, my thoughts (almost) exactly.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ph34r!</font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-31 05:54:28
subject: <b>The POW in WH isn&#180;t enough evidence.</b>
body:
A lot of people seems to think that Demandreds POW in proves that he isn&#180;t Taim. But what most people fail to see is that it eliminates every other candidate as well. What we do know from the meeting of the Chosen is that Demandred and Osan'gar are responsible for watching Rand, therefore they must be somewhere close to him. Whoever Demandred is hiding as or even if he isn&#180;t hiding at all, he should be close enough to Rand to recognise one of his personal Asha'man if he gets a good look at him. So that he doesn&#180;t recognise flinn isn&#180;t enough to kill the Demandred theory. Especially as RJ apperantly has said that we now should be able to figure out where every Chosen is hiding, and to my knowledge no one has been able to produce another credible theory about where Demandred is. <br /><br />Mattias  <br />


created: 2001-09-09 21:55:37
subject: <b>Weiramon</b>
body:
duh!  how much evidence does RJ give to point to where the forsaken are?  just BARELY enough, most especially in these later books. In PoD when attaking the Seanchan Weiramon is unstained when mud is on everyone else, Rand wonders how he does this. also, which forsaken was it that said something like... events in the south have his name all over them... something like that. ok people in the south are... Tearin high lords, Illian council (did we ever get hard evidence that the king of Illian was killed by Samael?), Ebou Dar(no men there), and then Tarabon(nothing pointing there), there also are the Whitecloaks, but we havent seen hide nor tail of(i am betting $'s we see them in next book) it could be the whitecloak leader, but shouldnt Galad have a handle on that?<br /><br />my 2 cents<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Rand will lose a hand and be a beggar.<br />Logain will kill Taim, after Rand is &quot;killed&quot;.<br />Mat will save Egwene from the headsmen.<br />Cadsuane will teach the Asha'man the taint isn't cleansend.<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-14 11:33:02
subject: <b>May Taimandred live for ever</b>
body:
If Demandred isn't taim, who is?? It must be a forsaken. Noone else could be that strong in the one power.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Wielder of Manshima <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" />  Killer of Chat  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />&quot;kn&#228;b&#246;j inf&#246;r hans n&#229;d draken. Eller era kn&#228;n kommer att b&#246;jas &#229;t er.&quot; - Mazrim Taim in the Swedish version of LoC</font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-20 01:07:06
subject: <b>Gee, Phoenix...who could Taim possibly be?</b>
body:
Could it be...TAIM?!?!?! (NOTE: Taim's name is to be said with the same voice as Dana Carvey's Church Lady from SNL)  I've always thought of myself as being rather arbitrary when it came to Taimandred, I could see it going either way.  But it was prettymuch spelled out in Winter's Heart...if it had been any more obvious Mr. Jorden would be wielding the fact like a blunt instrument.   He (RJ) never really went in for being uber-direct in things, he rare says anything utterly straight out...he doesn't like things to be too obvious, it makes for shoddy writing.<br /><br />Methinks some people really need to admit they're wrong and move on...hell, some of my favorite and personal theories have been sunk faster than a Polish battleship, you live with it and move on.<br /><br />-Me<br /><br />PS  I would like to extend my apologies to any members of the Polish Navy that have ever been lost in the sinking of one of their fine war vessels, as well as their friends and relations.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>Hi!  I'm Mat!  I'm just like Mat from the WoT...except I don't have that hat, medallion, sword-spear, and I can't speak the old tongue...although I did dance with one of the Forsaken once...</i><br /><br />-Mat <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-09 00:54:36
subject: <b>VIOLENCE AND BLOODSHED</b>
body:
Even with all the evidence each way i think it is all a bunch of useless blabber(but we all have to get our kicks somehow) <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />.  Maybe jordan is just jerkin our chains, or hes just so much smarter than all us that he thinks we would be able to figure it all out.<br /><br />the evidence:<br />F=for taimadred<br />A=against<br /><br />A---dem sees them though the trees and reconizes there features pretty well<br />F---however, they are &quot;sheltered behind a rough grey trunk&quot;<br />F---he has no clue who they are and since he isnt expecting flinn why would he recognize him in full daylight, senses augmented by saidin, but partly behind a tree. &lt;-people often dont see what theyre not looking for-&gt;  even if he is an 'omnipotent' forsaken <br />F---once flinn points and attacks dem realizes the obvious(the old man is ashaman) but in his surprise and sudden defense againt Flinns attack he doesnt recognize the face(imagine how many peeps the forsaken have known in their long ass lifetimes)<br />F---&quot;He was a general, but generals didnt have to fight alongside the men they commanded!&quot; (notice the !) i take this to mean that dem realizes he's fighting &quot;alongside&quot; the man he commands= the ashaman. he knows that not all ashaman are &quot;evil&quot; like him and some are fighting for Rand<br /><br />im for taimadred<br /><br />a few more thoughts:<br /><br />-Read the paragraph again when dem first sees flinn how long would it really take to go through those brief thoughts and any man will recognize a &quot;stunning&quot; woman and he then wouldnt be lookin at the old man<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />-The page telling that it's noon is p646 not p456 and if dem just meant being in the battle instead of commanding he would have said it, not the way he did.<br /><br />-1)the forsaken are only predators when they are equal. aginor/dashiva is definitly below in rank than Dem, and if the DO told them to man the BT together theyd do it. <br /> 2)when taim and Dem give the order to kill rand (you know, that stuff that happened at the end of book <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" />they were making sure they got that very important order across, not a waste of time<br /> 3)the original taim and Taimadred might not be the same man<br />if dem killed the original taim when he 'escaped' he may have never had a battle. there was, as i remember, a vagueness or discrepency in how taim went from being held by Aes sedai to appearing in Caemlyn before rand<br /><br />thats it i think. any i too tired <br /><br />**you know im right**<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;Bob, the Happy Vampire   <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />=</font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-17 08:25:34
subject: <b>It still could be..</b>
body:
It obvious that while wandering around, Demandred was hit on the head by some exploding rubble and developed partial Amnesia... okay maybe not, but how about while using Mask of Mirrors to pretend to be Taim, Demandred's eyes get a little messed up and... err... Maybe Damer is really Lanfear using Mask of Mirrors....<br /><br />Humm... There must be a reason ! There must ! Taimandred is Immortal !!!<br /><br />Seriously, I think RJ originally planed Taim to be Demandred, but everyone twigged so fast, he reorganised. It could explain why Demandred hasn't appeared as anyone definate yet.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">It is one of the things Lini is for, taking the blame. She usualy deserves it even if I don't know how.<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2008-07-07 14:07:36
subject: <b>Demandred &amp; Damer</b>
body:
So I have been reading a fair number of comments stating that Demandred cannot be Taim. The primary argument being presented for this statement is based on Demandred's encounter with Damer during the battle surrounding the event of Rand cleansing Saidin. <br /><br />Demandred is shocked by the power and speed of the old man's attack. This is often seen as proof that D cannot be Taim, as Taim would have trained Damer. However, didn't Rand observe that while female channelers grew gradually and slowly with the power, males seemed to &quot;jump&quot; in power and ability. Could this be an explanation as to why Demandred was surprised at the old man's abilities?<br /><br />


created: 2001-03-21 00:00:00
subject: <b>Taimandred Followers Undeniably Defeated. Thank the Light!</b>
body:
Well done, Wolf Brother.  Your evidence is the nail in the coffin for the Taimandred theory as far as I'm concerned.  Just wanted to express my appreciation for an excellent theory.


created: 2001-03-25 00:00:00
subject: <b>Lanfear</b>
body:
The Forsaken have been known to give orders as more than one person before.  Remember Lanfear going to the waste and giving the darkfriends orders as both herself and as her character?<p>just for the record I am not and have never been a supporter of the taimandred theory but this isnt evidence against it <img src="images/jester.gif" /></p>


created: 2001-07-16 13:17:27
subject: <b>Taim in Demandred's posse</b>
body:
They aren't the same person, but that doesn't mean one isn't under the command of the other (obviously Taim is under Demandreds command unless something strange has happened <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-07-20 05:28:49
subject: <b>Sorry, not quite.</b>
body:
To be honest with you, I thought the same until last night in the shower. I thought: If Rand caught them, would Demandred want him finding out who he is? No. Rand could have threatened/tortured him until he spit out that Taim/Demandred sent him. If that happened, it would be over for Taimandred. This is just another red herring (CRAP!) by RJ. Think about it, and you'll see.<br /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" />Green Gaidin,Ash'aman, he's your neighborhood badass man!<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-20 18:37:16
subject: <b>While I am not...</b>
body:
While I am not a Taimdemandrod believer, I can see the logic behind Demandred giving the same order twice. If Taim was Demandred, and no one knew about it, wouldn't it make sense that he would not want his position to be discovered, there by giving the order two times to conceal his identity?. I can see RJ putting that little plot twist in there just to confuse us. But, I guess there are stubborn people who believe those two are one and the same.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /> True Power is knowing that you can, but you don't. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-red.gif" border="0" /> -Deathbone1 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-green.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Current rank in Wse PTS: 164 out of top 1000 (7/8/03)<br />We are men of action. Lies do not become us.<br />Life finds a way.<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-03-09 02:23:21
subject: <b>Excuse me, what?</b>
body:
Enough people have pointed out how this evidence is not evidence, so I won't echo their arguments. I was just wondering if the vote about Bashere being Demandred was serious or not. If a joke, well, ok. If Not, I think it would be difficult for Taim to fool Bashere's wife, daughter, soldiers, etc. <br /><br />Taim still COULD be Demandred, and is all in all the most likely of the characters we know. Either Taim is Demandred or Demandred has not taken on an alter-ego and is working through Taim as a Proxy. It's one or the other, folks.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Honey, come to bed.&quot;<br />&quot;I can't. Somebody is wrong on the Internet.&quot;<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> Still a Stubborn supporter of Taimandred after KoD!  <br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-03-12 00:01:02
subject: <b>WOW</b>
body:
So many votes and so few comments sounds to me like someone wants to have a popular theory.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" />Be who you are<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" />and say what you feel <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> those who mind don't matter <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" />and those who matter don't mind<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br />       -Dr. Suess-</font><p></p>


created: 2001-03-25 00:00:00
subject: <b>Numbers</b>
body:
There are hundreds of people in the black tower.  It is that Demandred didn't recognize his own student. <img src="images/jester.gif" />


created: 2002-01-26 14:13:21
subject: <b>Of course he knows Damer</b>
body:
Yes but Damer was the very first student Taim found so him not recognizing can't be true. Besides it is highly unlikely that Taim doesn't know which particular asha'man are arround Rand.


created: 2002-01-27 08:47:15
subject: <b>Why Taim and for that matter Logain have survived so long.</b>
body:
Cadsuane Sedai.  Cadsuane has had interaction with both men ,and while it hasn't been revealed yet,<br /> taught or interacted with both somehow  which has enabled both men to stay sane longer than any<br />of the others. It most likely is the thing she is to teach Rand and all of the other Asha'Man that Min has viewed.


created: 2002-02-06 22:04:12
subject: <b>Cadsuane</b>
body:
I thought the thing she was trying to teach them was how to laugh again - didn't they say that in Winter's Heart?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Susan <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" /><br />WoT swearer</font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-25 11:18:32
subject: <b>Taim and Demandred</b>
body:
Demandred knew there were Asha'man about - why not just be Taim? Then they wouldn't have attacked him. The reason is that he's not Taim.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">You must chop down the tallest tree in the forest with... a herring!<br /><br /><br /><font face="courier new">l(a</font><br /><br /><font face="courier new">le</font><br /><font face="courier new">af</font><br /><font face="courier new">fa</font><br /><font face="courier new">ll</font><br /><br /><font face="courier new">s)</font><br /><font face="courier new">one</font><br /><font face="courier new">l</font><br /><br /><font face="courier new">iness</font><br /><br />F<font color="#111111">a</font><font color="#222222">d</font><font color="#333333">i</font><font color="#444444">n</font><font color="#555555">g</font><font color="#666666">o</font><font color="#777777">u</font><font color="#888888">t</font><font color="#999999">a</font><font color="#AAAAAA">n</font><font color="#BBBBBB">d</font><font color="#CCCCCC">n</font><font color="#DDDDDD">o</font><font color="#EEEEEE">w</font><font color="#FFFFFF">gone</font></font><p></p>


created: 2001-03-30 00:00:00
subject: <b>Theory II</b>
body:
<br />Mat will buy Moiraine out(Finnland) with his eye, Lanfear had much more power that Moiraine, so she might have powerful enough to buy herself out from there?????


created: 2001-04-06 00:00:00
subject: <b>The Power is not a form of money</b>
body:
Lanfear buying her way out because of her amount of power..... I don't know about that, unless you know of a way to divide the power into five dollar bills.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I'm not dead yet<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-04-11 00:00:00
subject: <b>Shields can be broken</b>
body:
I seem to recall that when Lanfear put the shield on Asmodean, she said something about the shield being able to be broken, but that it would cause an immense pain.  If Cyndane had a shield on her, she would be able to break it if she really wanted to, and if she is Lanfear reincarnated, she probably would try.  This is assuming that there is not another type of shield that only lessens the amount of the Power that can be taken in.  Also, Moridin might have put the shield on her, and then commanded her to leave it intact, and she would have obeyed with the mindtrap around his neck.  He could have done this to keep her identity unknown to the rest of the Forsaken, but for what reason I don't know. <img src="images/smile.gif" />


created: 2001-06-20 01:33:05
subject: <b>finns</b>
body:
I belive WH mentioned Lafear having greater strength before being taken by the 'finns, not before she died.  Very likely she lost power becuase of the 'price' or something else with the 'finns before losing her life as well.


created: 2001-07-15 02:09:37
subject: <b>You can't give up strength in the power</b>
body:
If strength in the power is something inborn and natural, noone can take it away except by stilling. you cant &quot;give it up&quot; as a price, because then you would be giving away part of yourself.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" />Prince Kheldar<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />Master Theif<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />Practiced Liar<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />The Guide<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-12 18:31:09
subject: <b>CynFear</b>
body:
I too don't think that  Lanfear aka Cyndane bought her way out of Finnland by loss of channeling-ability. After all she appears in a new body, and that means she died. I think the Finns killed her, and The Big Bad Shaitan took some of her ability to instill some loyalty to her and to teach her a lesson.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Death is lighter then a feather, Duty heavier then a mountain.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-07 15:46:11
subject: <b>Strength in the Power used to pay a price...</b>
body:
Just a couple of things that I want to mention.  <br /><br />First, strength in the Power is not necessarily an inborn trait.  It is alterable.  This is proven by several facts, including a statement made by several Aes Sedai that one must reach their potential through physical attempt, it does not merely happen out of nowhere.  You cannot reach your full potential unless you work towards this goal.<br /><br />Also, strength in the Power can, in a sense, be given up in exchange for a more desirable occurence.  The largest example of this occurs with the curing of severence.   Women who were once able to channel, and who have been severed from the source, can be cured.  This is a proven fact.  However, as payment for this cure, they sacrifice much of their previous strength in the power, as in the case of Siuan and Leene.<br /><br />These prove that, despite what some people have previously said, one's strength in the power is not written in stone.  It is actually quite malleable.<br /><br />Although I do not truly believe that Cyndane and Lanfear are one and the same, I beleive that this evidence at least makes it more plausible.  This *COULD* explain their difference in strength with the One Power.  Just something to think about...<br />


created: 2002-04-17 15:00:47
subject: <b>theory</b>
body:
isn't it reasonable to assume that Lanfear could have and would have gone to the fins in taol? and if so wouldn't she most likely request additional power? i seem to remember there being a part of one of the books with cydane saying that no one could be stronger than her before the fins got her, this would support the idea that lanfear requested to be the most powerful female chaneler in her first trip.  the matter of being able to enter fin land twice could simply be that she was dragged in by moraine which could have caused the distruction of the doorway, because terangrel are virtually indestructable with the exception of balefire and i don't remember that being in the sceen.


created: 2002-06-01 20:30:17
subject: <b>Hmmm...</b>
body:
Well, it might be possible that when she fell through the portal she was stilled.  Therefor, when resurected part of her power in the source was restored, but she lost a large chunk of it.  Much like when Suian was stilled and latter healed by Nyneave.


created: 2002-06-03 12:45:35
subject: <b>power</b>
body:
im pretty sure Cydane says shes weaker because of something the Finns did to her.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/seanchan.gif" border="0" /> Dragons Wriath <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /><br />   &quot;And can you by no drift of circumstances<br />   Get from him why he puts on this confusion<br />   Grating so harshly all his days of quiet<br />   With turbulant and dangerous lunacy&quot; - Hamlit</font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-20 04:58:49
subject: <b>Men V Women</b>
body:
Lanfear is the first female we have met to be brought back from the Dead by the Dark One so maybe this is an effect of that, We know that there are differences between saidair and saidin channellers soo this may be the reason for the reduced strength.


created: 2001-06-22 11:33:33
subject: <b>Yes</b>
body:
We actualy discussed this at Asmodean's (sob).  Anyways, I agree, its just the sort of thing that 1: will get them married despite the appartent dificulties, and 2: will make life more interesting for poor Matt.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Efreet<br /><br />Extropian<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> Incurable Optomist <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" />Mainah<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" />Almighty ONSEC of MITSFS<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />Lover of Squaresoft, Manga, and Strategy Games<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/blush.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br />&quot;Liberate Natural Courgarness&quot;<br /><br />&quot;Reality is what you can get away with&quot;<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-15 08:45:32
subject: <b>of all the stupid questions...</b>
body:
of course they are already married. This is R.J.-books, remember?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> <font color="a52a2a">Magnus Alexander corpore parvus erat </font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <font color="b8860b">Dissenting voice of wotmania</font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <br /><font color="6495ed">Frightfully stubborn pacifist</font> <br /><br /><i><font color="669900"> Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent</font></i></font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-21 01:27:13
subject: <b>There oughtta be a law...</b>
body:
You mean like the American culture called a &quot;common law&quot; marrige?  Possibly, but typically there has to be some agreement on the part of the woman or her family.  Now I personally disagree, but I'm guessing that there's probably nothing on the Randland lawbooks about claiming somebody is your wife if she's not (which would allow for no obvious bodily harm remarks).  Obviously from the remarks (and several character's memories) you are not allowed to harm the Blood.  Selucia's behavior is to be expected if you consider that the High Lord's servants stabbed themselves after he died.<br />However, if you want a different theory altogether for Tuon's smile (like she knows something) at the end, what do you want to guess that Mat is the reason Tuon through a fit and caned the damane?  &quot;My Lady, I see that some commoner gambler is going to walk in, claim you as his own, and carry you off somewhere.&quot; That'd go over REAL good (it'd make me loose MY temper).<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Reality is not what it used to be. <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-25 21:44:34
subject: <b>Probably Married.......sucks to be mat</b>
body:
Let me put it this way If In Seanchan all you have to say is Youre marriedand you are then as far as tuons concerned they are<br /><br />but if so Mat has noidea they already are married<br /><br />the last thing we hear from mat in WH is<br /><br />A boy slim little woman, when he liked women with flesh on their bones. Heir to the seanchan throne, when noblewomen gave him goosebumps. A woman who had wanted to buy him, and now likely wanted to put a knife in his ribs. And she WOULD BE his wife.<br /><br />This implies that Mat doesnt think Theyre married however note what Mat observes about Tuon right then<br /><br />At last Tuon showed expression. She smiled, as if she suddenly knew a secret. She smiled and he shivered, Oh light how he shivered.<br /><br />So My guess is Tuon indeed knows theyre married but Mat certainly does not<br /><br />Peaceout


created: 2002-07-06 23:06:22
subject: <b>sounds ok...</b>
body:
i mean, it seems probable that rj could put something like this into the plot, especially with mat, since he'll make the events to come even more humerous. i know this would really stink, especially if it turned out that he hated tuon or something, but somehow, i doubt that could happen. mat is the type to get along with most people.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Egwene the Dreamer <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/egwene.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />the shy aes sedai <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shy.gif" border="0" /><br />with her head in a book <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-12-23 23:51:19
subject: <b>...</b>
body:
... The implications here are pleasantly mind-boggling and all too believable. However, with the advent of CoT, I think I might disagree... <br /><br />... There doesn't seem to be any indication of it in chapter one...<br /><br />... *crosses fingers*<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">livejournal: /~asmodeyum<br />(visit me at www.onetallcat.com)<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gimli.gif" border="0" /> that axe! those braids! i am smitten.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-02 19:36:31
subject: <b>good for you!</b>
body:
you figured it out before CoT!!! *hands out kudos* <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">hot damn.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-03-24 21:58:56
subject: <b>hmmm</b>
body:
i though i remebered reading something about the saying 3 times that some1 is your wife/husband all they have to do is say they are  your spouse 3 times within a  year and boom your officially married in seachen.  Im not sure its right because i forget where i read it.  might of been in CoT.  though im pretty sure its in an exchange between mat and Doman's master or whatever he is to her now.....i just cant spel the name.(this is what i think, im rereading everything so i may find it then, thou im only on Wheel)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">The Truth is Shrouded by Darkness,<br />Only our Gaze Pirces the Darkest Night.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-05-04 03:43:12
subject: <b>maybe u posted thoery before cot but....</b>
body:
EACH of them have say that to be married in a year and a day or something.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">If you lend  someone 20 bucks and never see them again it was worth it.<br /><br />penguins will come into storyline i just kno it<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-05-31 08:24:10
subject: <b>Mor=Ishy</b>
body:
Moridin may well be the third destroyer, since it's possible that he somehow invaded a piece of Rand's mind when OP balefire crossed TP balefire in SL. Jury is still out on whether that was intentional. Perhaps Ishy/Mor wanted to give Rand a taste of real evil, and didn't expect to have his own bell rung for the trouble.<br /><br />Moridin is, however, Ishamael. Demandred's POV in a Forsaken meeting notes that he (Moridin) always was mad, considering the regularity of the saa in Moridin's eyes. Other comments are very familiar in nature, as of someone the other Forsaken knew well, and only correspond to Ishamael's personality.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> Call_me_Tim <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> Call me Tim <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-14 05:18:11
subject: <b>3 1/2 books is optimism??!??!?!?!</b>
body:
Quote:<br />-------------------------------------------------------<br />Pento McGreno says: 3 and a half books? Well, someone's optimistic...<br />-------------------------------------------------------<br /><br />How's that optimistic?  10 books would be, 3 1/2 is (in my rather sad opinion) a little on the pesimistic side of things.


created: 2002-05-03 06:02:57
subject: <b>3 1/2</b>
body:
well Jordan has been saying for the last three books that it would be at least another three books and also that the last battle would probably cover an entire book and seen as in book nine there is no longer the taint on saidin I think the plot will speed up a little..... so 3 1/2 is a little optimistic (if we're wanting the series to end as soon as possible which I CERTAINLY DON'T WANT!!!!!) my 2 cents


created: 2003-02-13 09:40:02
subject: <b>Sorry</b>
body:
Moridin cannot be an alter-world dragon, since it is stated quite clearly that if the Dark One escapes his prison on one world, he will escape on all worlds.<br /><br />It is possible, however, that Moridin is an alter-world Ishamael, where the seals are not breaking, and so he has no alternative but to sabotage another world to free the Dark one.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Asmodean is alive and posing as Sammael!<br /><br />Sammael <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sammy.gif" border="0" /> is Sparticus.<br /><br />No, I'm Sparticus! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /> = <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />I'm Herid Fel Reborn!!!!! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shy.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2007-08-02 17:33:14
subject: <b>Maybe...</b>
body:
As far as Moridin keeping his identity secret from the other Forsaken, remember how paranoid &quot;Chosen&quot; are.  Do you really think he would reveal himself if he didn't have to?  <br />Also, what gives you the idea that he is alter-world at all, Aielyn?  He could be, but I do not think RJ would pull something like that without some precident.


created: 2001-04-09 00:00:00
subject: <b>Good try</b>
body:
Nope. Good try, but nope. He'll lose an eye. RJ would not get MAT to marry and then kill off his wife. That would just be too cruel. I mean, we've waited since TSR, and then his wife dies on us? He couldn't do that to us poor readers! Or could he.... Nope. Sorry, Mat.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Ruriha <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-04-28 00:00:00
subject: <b>HAHA!</b>
body:
no offense, but i feel that this is a fantabulously wrong idea.  But regardless of that, i am now going to selfishly use this space to post an idea of my own.  You may see this elsewhere seeing as i am posting one in a theory in every category.<p>[ahem]...In the begining of my fourth reading of WoT, an idea suddenly stuck me like a pie thrown by an evil clown.  Assuming that everything we know about the power is true, meaning that it really does turn the wheel of time, then wouldn't it stand to reason that in an age where nobody used the power(i remember reading about ne of those), the age would never end? What would happen? Maybe the downfall of that age is when people first begin to use the power in that turning of the wheel.  Please  contact me with your opinions on this.<br />                                          sincerely,<br />                                       the town drunk<img src="images/clown.gif" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />the lover of light and wisdom<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" />the all-seeing eye<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />the wandering wotmaniac<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font></p><p></p>


created: 2001-05-04 00:00:00
subject: <b>Eyes and Losing Half the Light</b>
body:
It is my belief that Mat will be sacrificing an eye for something crucial.  I've come to this because of two things: 1) The propehcy of losing half the light of the world, and 2) Min's viewing.  If we remember way back to "The Eye of the World", Min tells of a viewing about Mat in which he is weighing an eye on a scale.  This, I think is the convincing thing, because Min's viewings have never failed, even though we don't always know the scenarios surronding them.  The viewing seems to suggest Mat considering the cost of giving up an eye to the cost of some other undisclosed event.  Remember the old saying, "Take what you want, and pay for it."  We don't, however, know if the eye is Mat's own, or if it is, say, someone's whose vision is extremely important to Mat.  I kinda doubt it's the latter because I can't even begin to imagine who that other person could be.  Then again, there could be a first time for anything -- even for one of Min's viewings to fail.  It seems like achieving the supposed impossible is a repeating theme within the story.


created: 2001-06-15 22:34:15
subject: <b>Mat's Light is his Vision</b>
body:
You cant gain much in WoT without sacrifcing something. the Finn's are a good example of this. Mat asks for protection against Aes Sedai, something to help him win battles, and a weapon to fight the battles with, and has to hang from a tree for 9 or so days. <br /><br />i think it was Egwene who saw Mat reaching up into an Illuminator's fireworks display and grasping it in his hand. she then knew men would die because of this.<br /><br />The most likely explination is that he swindles the secret of gunpoweder out of the Last Illuminator, and loses an eye doing so.<br /><br /><br /><br />some more evidence for this is that Mat is based almost entirely on Odin. Odin hung from a tree for 9 days to gain almost all the knoledge in the world, Mat hung from a tree for 9 days to become the ultimate general. Odin sits in the Halls of Valhalla, where the bravest hero's eat and listens to them talk. I think this could be Mat's memories of a couple hundred different soldiers. Odin wears a hat very similar to that of Mat's. Odin had two ravens on his shoulders, Thought and Memory who told him everything. Mat has that spear-thing-a-mah-boobber with two ravens. And Finally, Odin gave up one of his eyes for the remaining knoledge of the world. Mat will lose his eye for the price of becomeing a General with the two most feared armies in the world. The Band of the Red Hand, and The Legion of the Dragon ( no offense to any fans of his, but Bashere is an idiot comapred to Mat. Mat thought of everything, and therefor its his bloody army )


created: 2001-06-17 01:41:43
subject: <b>Hmmmmmm......</b>
body:
I seem to be using that title a lot.  Anyways....<br />Knave, the two ravens may be the spar, or they may be something else (remember the sign of seanchan royalty is the raven), and one of Egwene's dreams is &quot;Two ravens alighted on his shoulders, talons sinking through his coat, into the flesh beneath.  He...didn't...seem aware of them, yet defiance passed across his face, followed by grim acceptance.&quot;  I don't know what this means, but I think those are Odin's two ravens for you.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ph34r!</font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-28 20:28:03
subject: <b>It seems more likely than an eye to me</b>
body:
well the title say it all.  When i first came in and read all that eye stuff i have to say i thought it was ridiculous.  Half the light of the world just sounds a little more serious than an eye, regardless of if he loses one or not.  This theory of losing his moon i.e. dauthter of the nine. and as her husband taking her place in relationship to the thone of seanchan seems much more along the lines of phophetic verbiage to me than any theory where he actual loses his eye.  There is no real reason except for habit to associate Mins visions with Egwene's dreams and the Finns truths. So half the light of the world and Mats eye on a balance scale could be completely unrelated.  In fact most ofthe things that have come blatantly true so far were near exactly the same in their parallel visions<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where did these Skimmers come from?  I mean if they didn't want to read the book they could have just Traveled to another author.  Why risk arriving at the wrong destination?  Why risk falling into darkness?</font><p></p>


created: 2001-12-06 05:17:09
subject: <b>Ya...</b>
body:
I almost never post but I thought I had to get this off my back.  I don't think he will lose an eye; it makes the prophesies about Mat trivial because all of RJ's prophesis had symbolic meaning, they are not a perfect snapshot of the future.  Second, i remember Egwene dreaming that Mat giving up half the light of the world would have terrible implications and men would die; isn't safe to say that if many random lifes (not to mention that half the light of the WORLD part) are on the line it than the choice has to be something MAJOR dealing possibly with the odd union of Tuon and Mat and what influence he may possibly have amoung the Seanchan.  No matter how insane it sounds (remember, RJ has pulled fast ones on all of us, who amoung you thought the taint would be cleaned way before the Last Battle, if at all?), and how the Seanchan prophesy has been discounted in the books, i think Rand has yet to &quot;kneel&quot; to the crystal throne with those handcuffs still out there and maybe Mat has something to do with that (if you still think the kneeling part is ridiculous, remember how much stock RJ puts in humility, especially for the Dragon Reborn...).


created: 2002-03-05 12:33:52
subject: <b>Half the forces of the light</b>
body:
I always thought that the westlands were half and the Seachen were the other half of the light, they are both fighting (most of them) for the light after all. <br /><br />And hes the only one that has any real links to both power bases. <br /><br />In bringing Tuon with him to Illian (where they most likly are already. if you look at the time line and the fact that if Rand clensed the source would have been noticed by the AS and Sul'Damme.) Will expose Tuon to AS and to the truth of the matter that Sul'Dam can channel, thus meaning SHE can channel, it has been stated many times that the fact that Sul'dam can channel may shake the Seachen to there core and maybe even break them, half the light of the world broken... <br /><br />


created: 2002-10-10 01:18:45
subject: <b>Lord of the Morning</b>
body:
I agree with this thought! The sun could represent Rand (As LLT) Who is also called the Lord of the morning.


created: 2001-04-02 00:00:00
subject: <b>But that contradicts your earlier evidence...</b>
body:
If Mat were Hawkwing (or Olver Gaidal Cain), you're getting much of your evidence from prior sources. Like Mat using the old tongue in many instances, or his odd memories. However, if he wasn't Hawkwing until AFTER the Rhuidean incident, then none of that matters. Likewise, for Olver, if he wasn't Gaidal Cain until he almost died, then his appearance and age don't matter.<p>Besides, I don't like the idea of skinwalkers (a soul taking over someone else's body.)</p>


created: 2001-06-01 08:51:35
subject: <b>Look to the foxes</b>
body:
Mat's ancient memories aren't evidence of another personality inhabiting Mat ala LTT with Rand. In Mat's unbridled ignorance with the Eelfinn, not knowing that they grant requests instead of answering questions, he wished for the holes in his life and memory to be filled in, and the Fox-folk said &quot;Done&quot;. The holes in his brain caused by his time cursed with the Shadar Logoth dagger were filled in with the greatest military memories of the last three millenia.<br /><br />Making the comparison, Birgitte says that in past lives she doesn't know she's tied to the wheel while living the life, nor have any memories of past lives, only when she's between lives in T'A'R. She also says shes born into each new life, not deposited into an existing person.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> Call_me_Tim <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> Call me Tim <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-18 23:30:47
subject: <b>Duh....</b>
body:
of course olver is cain....  that's obvious.  he was born cain.<br />-cain was always ugly.  olver is ugly<br />-cain was always first.  he was this time, too.<br />-it's SO OBVIOUS!!!!! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> lol.


created: 2002-01-03 15:22:29
subject: <b>the T'A'R angle</b>
body:
is very fuzzy for me... Hawkwing wasnt seen in the dreamworld at all, there is no mention of him by brigette, and none of the travels who arent heros have seen his likeness... but there are precepts correct? the heros arent supposed to show themselves... brigette was seen only because she wanted to be, and gaidal's shadow (or glimpse out of the corner of our dreamwalker's eyes) were seen perhaps only because of birgette's presence...<br /><br />while i will go along with gaidal's rebirth in the boy, i must go with a negative on Mat being hawkwing reborn<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Can you see the line where the water ends?<br />Draws itself off into oblivion...</font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-22 23:33:12
subject: <b>No your Wrong</b>
body:
Mat was a general for Hawkwing and not Hawkwing himself. He remembers parts of that even though i cant recall teh page numbers plus (this part really gets me ) mat sounded the horn and Hawkwing was one of the heros. So how can Mat be Hawkwing reborn if Mat was there when Hawkwing came back from the Horn. And when Gaidal Cain gets pulled from T'a'R Birgette said that she would go soon too but thats besid ehte point the truth is if they are tied to the wheel through the horn then how do they get called to the horn when they are alive. Its cause they dont get called when they are alive they go on with there lives until they do something to become tied to the wheel again.


created: 2002-07-01 20:33:01
subject: <b>A comment from Thom</b>
body:
One comment supporting this theroy comes from Thom in tEotW when Rand and Perrin say that Mat might be Aemon reborn, Thom tells them that it isn't a joking matter and that souls can take over a body.  So RJ has put this in the books at some stage.


created: 2001-03-20 00:00:00
subject: <b>Elephant tie in</b>
body:
Mat will build a big heavy cannon.<p>How will he move it around?</p><p>Mat is meeting up with the Valan Luca's menagerie soon.</p><p>He will use the elephants to deploy cannon.</p>


created: 2001-03-26 00:00:00
subject: <b>Good circus theory</b>
body:
I like that about the elephants being used to move the cannons.  Keep in mind too that one of the inventors in Cahriehen (sp?) is fairly close to creating a steam engine.


created: 2001-06-01 09:02:04
subject: <b>Getting the cart before the horse</b>
body:
Well, the explosive powder in the fireworks that Mat is always so curious about is already gunpowder, even if it's not known by that name. What Aludra is on the point of devising is the mechanism for launching a projectile using the powder. That's why she set Mat the riddle of her need for a bellfounder.<br /><br />I don't know that the guns to be made will be so large as to require the s'redit to tow them, and I'm not sure that Valan Luca would agree to put his precious beasts to such a task. It may come later, when they meet up with the steam engine in Cairhien, that a rolling artillery is constructed.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> Call me Tim <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-13 23:21:52
subject: <b>Well...</b>
body:
Considering that the s'redit are from Seanchan, and Mat is destined to marry the DotNM, I don't really think that getting s'redit will be a problem. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Thrain (stillnoname.com)<br /><br />Beware the engineers of society, I say, who would make everyone in all the world equal. Opportunity should be equal, must be equal, but achievement must remain individual.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-17 01:46:42
subject: <b>And remember...</b>
body:
The Illuminator lady from the circus is making firesticks (matches)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ph34r!</font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-03 21:53:12
subject: <b>I never thought of that....</b>
body:
...but now that you mention it it seems pretty obvious.  Remember that guy in the Cairhien school who was building something that sounded like a steam engine?  I'm thinking that by the end of the series we'll have colonial-esque inventions.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">When in danger, when in doubt, run in circles, scream and shout<br /><br />&quot;It's the owner of the flowerbed<br />She grew roses to hide her brother, dead<br />This is the proof that I must show<br />Watch this tape and you will know&quot;<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-07 23:45:27
subject: <b>Call_Me_Tim....</b>
body:
It doesn't matter if Valan Luca doesn't want to use the elephants (forget the name) that way; they belong to Cerandin (sp?) and she is the only one who can control them.  Luca realy has no choice in the matter.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ph34r!</font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-04 15:02:20
subject: <b>besides...</b>
body:
wasn't cerandin returned to her ranks as was indicated by Valan Luca being honored by Lady Suroth for harboring her and her s'redit? i am more in tune with the theory that Mat will use his connection to Tuon to rally some or all of the Seanchan in favor of the Light<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Can you see the line where the water ends?<br />Draws itself off into oblivion...</font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-12 11:38:19
subject: <b>Bang, bang.........</b>
body:
Guns are definately on the way, but in what form? Artillery probably (although I have doubts on mechanised guns, its too early, technologically-wise), but what about personal weapons (muskets, etc.)? Also, has anyone considered the idea of cannons on the Athan'Miere ships? That could cause huge problems for our friends from Seanchan!


created: 2002-06-29 20:32:47
subject: <b>Bellfounder for 'works. not guns</b>
body:
i agree that the explosive powder in the fireworks could be used to manufacture guns I disagree that Aludra is on the point of devising a mechanism for launching a projectile. I think her sending mat to the bellfounder actually has to do with the making of the fireworks.  Mat on the other hand i could see finding a bellfounder and then trying to shoot projectiles. I also had a stray thought about her being able to channel but that's another not well thought out post<br /><br />-------<br />Well, the explosive powder in the fireworks that Mat is always so curious about is already gunpowder, even if it's not known by that name. What Aludra is on the point of devising is the mechanism for launching a projectile using the powder. That's why she set Mat the riddle of her need for a bellfounder.<br />I don't know that the guns to be made will be so large as to require the s'redit to tow them, and I'm not sure that Valan Luca would agree to put his precious beasts to such a task. It may come later, when they meet up with the steam engine in Cairhien, that a rolling artillery is constructed.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">-- <br /><br />Lord Perrin &quot;Goldeneyes&quot; Aybara  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />I am the Diamond. Long live the 'king' of the wolves<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-08 11:03:43
subject: <b>your right</b>
body:
Also Ibelvieve at one point mat was talking about how if one was to set a firework on its side it would go &quot;a thousand paces&quot; and thats basically a cannon right there.


created: 2003-06-18 03:13:10
subject: <b>Bingo</b>
body:
Mat has already said that one of Aludra's devices could throw a firework a thousand paces. He also is familiar with using fireworks as a weapon since he used that set to break into the Stone of Tear with Julian Sandar in TDR.<br /><br />Absolutely No One<br />


created: 2004-10-22 06:43:09
subject: <b>Yes!</b>
body:
I also saw this, and highly agree.  Gunpowder, or some form of it will be made.  He has very interesting thoughts on what the Illuminator 'Fire Tubes' could do, if placed on their sides... And who knows?  Maybe Aludra will break down -finally- after some good kisses, and she'll spill all.  Thus, guns are made!


created: 2005-03-05 02:16:56
subject: <b>Mats Military Deployment</b>
body:
I think Mat'll invent guns, not for any reason in particular, but mostly because of the way he trained the Legion of the Dragon. He trained ALL of them to use the most powerful projectile weapon that can be used by a relative amateur - Crossbows. He 'didn't have a pike in the lot' if I remember my quote correctly. I recall another quote from somewhere about &#8216;the ratio in the Band of the Red hand was two crossbowmen to every pikemen, or would be once the Band got them trained.&#8217;  Mat's memories make him a clever cookie - he knows that fewer men die if you project your power forward from your line. Mat&#8217;ll recognise the artillery as useful, then will speed up development to make muskets.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Crossy</font><p></p>


created: 2005-04-28 21:12:45
subject: <b>The bellfounder</b>
body:
The reason for the bellfounder is to make the cannon for the the fireworks. To make a cannon ball go you need a lot of force behind it. And when I was watching the history channel on ancient weapon I learned that bell makers were brought in to make the first cannons because they were the only people able to make a tube strong enough to do what it was designed for, i.e Making a big explosion that throws a heavy ball at stuff. Thats why cannons look so much like long narrow bells.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Put Signature Here<br />Put Signature Here<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-09-20 17:59:02
subject: <b>maybe</b>
body:
i think the first form will be more like a mortar (light ordenance) as he was considering just tossing night flowers at the Seachean. Oh and on the bell founder and this is just a wild stab in the dark maybe she needs him to make... bells, gasp.


created: 2006-03-01 07:57:30
subject: <b>damn i was hoping...</b>
body:
THat he uses the idea of gunposer in sacks as a form of explosion as it lands in the middle of the field filled with Trollocs, sending it to there he would use Trebuchet to fire these sacks over.<br /><br />I can actually envision hundreds of those pulled by horses, and all firing at random at the last battle<br /><br />gad.. what a mess that would create...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">www.spartanis.tk</font><p></p>


created: 2006-09-09 05:53:03
subject: <b>Spartanis...</b>
body:
In KoD Mat uses something similiar(in practice), to what you just proposed called slingmen. Basically throw big balls of gunpowder into enemies and have pellets around them... can anyone say &quot;canister shot&quot;?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Egwene must die.<br />Rand Al'Thor will face her wrath...<br />And laugh in her face!</font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-17 20:49:54
subject: <b>Must I Say This Again?!!!</b>
body:
You need to be either shot or have a catscan. How many poor people have you exposed to this poorly thought out theory! *sigh* There is really only one word that i must say to totaly shred your &quot;theroy&quot;. Falme.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">An Opptimist Knows The World Is Good... A Pessimist Fears This Is True. <br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /> IM IRISH!! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-05 07:17:03
subject: <b>Dont think so</b>
body:
Dont remember in wich book this was, but mat had memories of fighting Hawkwing. now that would not be possible if he was him yes?


created: 2002-03-14 15:26:28
subject: <b>...</b>
body:
Yes Mat have got memories from fighting Hawkwing, but those memories does not haft to be his memories. However, it's poor theory, and all that has to be said to crush it is &quot;Falme,&quot; just like you said seal.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">May the Vikings unite and bring terror to the world once again <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-03 16:00:57
subject: <b>Nah.</b>
body:
I would have loved this theory (I like the thought of Artur Hawking being reborn and somehow having something to do with the Seanchan) but you'll notice that the heroes at Falme call Rand Lews Therin.  Lews Therin himself isn't there as a hero because he'd been reborn as Rand; thus, Artur can't have been there if he'd been reborn.


created: 2003-04-30 00:40:40
subject: <b>Leave the poor fellow alone</b>
body:
Rand and LTT exist at the same time.<br />Why couldnt AH and Matt exists at the same time as well, because the heroes of the horn never physically existed cos when people tried to fight them their swords could not do anything because they were not made of the flesh.<br />As for you seal, do you think you are some sort of genious, if someone has a theory that you dont like then dont like it. But dont think you s*$t dont stink mate.


created: 2001-04-07 00:00:00
subject: <b>problem is...</b>
body:
his memories from that particular battle are of the kings general, not the king himself<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" />Hopper<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> Property of Eniariom <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><i>To realise the value of one hour, talk to two lovers waiting to meet<br /><br />It's safe to fall if you just trust the ground that you stand on.</i></font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-12 21:47:08
subject: <b>You Fool!</b>
body:
You Fool! Why in all of blood and bloody ashes would King Aemon be linked to the wheel?! Unless you've paid attention, KINGS AND ROYALTY AND USELESS. This king was no different. True, history remembers him taking a stand in his country, but then again thats how history remembers him.<br /><br />Mat's memories cover a huge range of random people. the Finn's who gave them to him though prolly picked the ones with the best battle data or something, cause somewhere he says he can remember fighting against Arthur Hawking, but also for him. He had his memories a book before he went into the doorway, so think of them as his special talent. Min has her viewings, Perrin's a wolfbrother, others can channel. Mat has his luck and his memories. <br /><br />In TGH, when Mat calls the Hero's with the Horn, about a hundred or so show up. Why, in all of the bloody Creation would King Aemon be in a group of great warriors and soldiers?


created: 2001-06-17 01:51:27
subject:
<b>Now you're a Fool! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angry.gif" border="0" /></b>

body:
EVERYONE is reborn, but only the Dragon, and the Heroes, come back as the same person (or almost the same)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ph34r!</font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-26 15:36:03
subject: <b>One Little Problem</b>
body:
King Whats-his-face was a WARDER to an AES SEDEI! If Mat was King Aemon(sp?) reborn, than why is he so uneasy around Channelers? They have their similarities but the odds are to hard to beat, even with Mat's bloody luck. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angry.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Eben Hopwil <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-14 12:00:24
subject: <b>Memories</b>
body:
Mat's memories are not a random collection the Fin's decided to through in there.  They are 'his' memories, memories from previous lives that he lived as a hero of the horn.<br />The dager or dager cure put holes in his memories.  He asked the Fin to get rid of the holes in his memories.  The Fin have to do as he says [not necesarily what he wants].  he wanted this lifes memories back, but they gave him memories from his past lives.  <br />The memories are all about battles and wars because, dah he is a hero, and not any hero, but a General Hero.  Like Hawking his hero work is leading armies, unlike brigite who was more a special forces archer type hero.<br />However, he canot be Hawking because he remembers fighting Hawking, and other reincarnations of Hawking in past lives.  Also although they are both always Generals, they differ in style.  Hawking was a strategist and purely brillant.  Mat's was always a gambler {which appears to be his hero name, The Gambler} and a risk taker, and was always lucky.<br /><br />Also,<br />Mat is Tavern, unbelievable lucky, and spoke the old tongue without knowing it before the Fin's.  He has to be a Hero reborn.


created: 2001-08-20 18:39:29
subject: <b>Remember Suian?</b>
body:
Remember when the AS heal Mat? Egwene or someone asks why he says such bitter things about AS and Suian replies that men sometimes don't know themselves how they truly feel? This would be perfect in summing up the Aemon/warder conflict--imagine if answers were given at the same time a mysterious and relevant event has just occurred! I fully expect Tuon's ability wih the OP to rival Eldrene's. The focus on her strength is just as important as Aemon's bravery (btw, I think Jordan indicates that Aemon is more a general than a king because Manetheran has a Queen and her king is always her Warder--obviously very battle-ready). If Eldrene has not become Tuon, I fully expect Nyn or Egwene to have become her because, despite one's attitude toward Aemon, Eldrene was quite a woman.


created: 2001-09-27 12:13:26
subject: <b>Mat is not Aemon</b>
body:
One of his memories was WATCHING Aemon die at the fall of Manetheren.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font face="old english text mt"><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />  Lord Avatar Darkstorm <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />  King of the Morning   <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />  Prince of the Day     <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />  He Who Rules the Night<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font> <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-29 02:22:11
subject: <b>mmmmm</b>
body:
mat is most definately many memories of his past lives as shown in pg619 of TSR in this we are shown mat falling with tree arows in him (dieing of course) he and his armie had been fighting a youngish Aedomon. and then later he remembers seeing aedomon graying dying with a spear in his back.<br />which shows that he was seeing it through a different persons eyes at a different time (maybe 30 years later) but it is still him just reborn


created: 2002-01-08 00:03:44
subject: <b>Alittle order in the chaos</b>
body:
As noted in the previous post it was Aedomon he saw die not Aemond.<br /><br />secondly his memories of the battle of Manetheren occur after his healing from the dagger wound and well before he enters the Ter'Angreal of the snakes.<br /><br />thirdly, If you remember Moirane or Suian reveals that Bonwhin the last Amyrlin had betrayed Manetheren and refused to send aid because of jealousy of Eldrene's power. Now if the head of the White power had betrayed me and my people to utter destruction I might carry just a little antipathy towards AS into my next life.<br /><br />I find it quite likely that Mat is Aemon, Tuon is Eldrene (she couldn't have passed her Sul'Dam tests if she couldn't wield the one power as has been explained several times now. My question then is Elaida Bonwhin?


created: 2002-01-24 14:44:48
subject: <b>There's Aemon's battle cry too...</b>
body:
In EOTW, Mat used both the battle cry of Manetheren, &quot;For the honor of the Red Eagle&quot; and the battle cry of Aemon himself,  Carai an Ellisande! Al Ellisande!, &quot;for the honor of the Rose of the Sun&quot; that referred to his wife Eldrene.<br /><br />During his healing, the AS translated part of what he said as orders given most likely at the last stand of Manetheren.<br /><br />Something similar occurs when Mat wakes up in the tower afterward, once again ordering the army against Trollocs.<br /><br />This was way before the events with the Snakes. It's only after the snakes that Mat seemed to have memories from multiple lives. Before it always related to Aemon himself (or possibly to yet to be revealed hero or Manetheren Lord very close to Aemon, but it's doubtful). <br /><br />There's also Birgitte's remark that he speaks the Old Tongue like a Manetheren First Lord.<br /><br />All in all, I too think it's quite likely that Mat is Aemon reborn and Tuon is Eldrene. That's would quite similar to Birgitte and Cain's incarnations meeting each other over and over again.  I guess it's not impossible that Elaida was both Tetsuan and Bonwhin (the one who tried to run Hawkwing).<br /><br />There's still much mystery built around what really happened at Manetheren, remember notably Loial's puzzling remark to Rand in EotW 36 that the Ogier couldn't come in time.  I'm quite convinced that the bit by bit revelations about Manetheren's Fall since book 1 are hiding something important.<br /><br />Now that we know Tuon can channel and has finally entered Mat's life, it will be interesting to see if Mat's screams during his Healing &quot;I am a free man, I am no Aes Sedai meat&quot; relates to Aemon's relationship with Eldrene or if this rather involves the Amyrlin Tetsuan and what she and the Tower may have wanted from or done to King Aemon.


created: 2002-04-18 15:59:35
subject: <b>Perrin - King Aemon</b>
body:
I belive that Perrin is King Aemon.  I think this because of the fact that Perrin is building a kingdom where King Aemon's once stood.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">-0-&quot;When all else fails just remember that your not real.&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /><br />&quot;Free will is mearly an illusion that your mind uses to keep you sane.  If you knew any better you would know that all of our actions are programed responses&quot;-0-</font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-10 14:04:16
subject: <b>Hmm...</b>
body:
Was any hero missing when Mat blew the Horn of Valere?  If he was reborn then the Hero wouldn't have been in T'A'R and thus not be available for the Horn to call.  I remember Rand listing some of the Heroes off, but I don't have the books handy.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">The ever cynical...<br />Taurus</font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-31 15:22:05
subject: <b>Why? Why? Why?</b>
body:
Why does everyone want to make all the characters in the book a Hero of the Horn?  <br /><br />Mat is tavaren.  This means the pattern uses him to steer itself towards its ultimate goal.  It is very difficult for one person to change the world, which is why there are three working together right now.  Although it would be difficult to change the world with one person, a person with an army that never loses (The Band of the Red Hand), memories from great warriors and generals of the past, and a way to always be able to finance the actions of his army (his luck with dice) would be able to do quite a bit in the big scheme of things.  And I didn't even mention the usual benefits of tavaren that Rand and Perrin also enjoy.  <br /><br />Someone above mentions that Mat's memories were there before he went through the doorway.  I don't think this is true, but if you can find a quote to prove it, I would love to see it.  The poster also said that this was an ability such as Min's viewings or Perrin's wolfbrotherhood.  I like the idea that Mat has a special ability, but I think his uncanny luck would fit the bill a bit better.  <br /><br />About the memories, Moiraine says the Finns get your memories and experiences from you when you go through the doorways and this causes the feeling of your skin crawling.  I thought that when Mat asked for memories to plug the holes, they gave him memories from others who had gone into the land of the Finns.  Why they decided to give him memories of battles, I don't know.  Perhaps they like war movies and so the only memories they had to give were of battles and war.  The important thing is that the memories came from the Finns, so just because he remembers Hawkwing, Aemon, or any other old kings and famous people doesn't mean he is one of these people reborn.  It just means that someone who knew Hawkwing, Aemon, etc went to see the Finns one day.  <br /><br />I think that Mat's talents and other peculiarities are not indicators that he is a Hero reborn, but that he is tavaren and the pattern thinks he needs those attributes to fulfill his destiny.  <br /><br />Sorry about the long post.<br /><br />Onnestabe


created: 2005-06-11 03:52:51
subject: <b>not Aemon</b>
body:
I don't think that Mat is Aemon. I think that he is one of Aemons Generals probably the original leader of the Red Hand


created: 2006-04-28 14:30:51
subject: <b>ummm.the band of the red hand?</b>
body:
Aemon didnt lead the band of the red hand mate--if i remember corectly we dont know wh did, but we are told that it wasnt Eamon somewhere


created: 2006-08-24 11:50:58
subject: <b>I can believe it.</b>
body:
Mat could very easily be Aemon or one of his generals. As pointed out previously, the mistrust of Aes Sedai could have something to do with their betrayal of Menetheran.<br /><br />Not sure about the Tuon deal but Mat is a go. <br /><br />No on the Finn/memory debate. He DID speak the old tounge periodically before he enterd the gate. Moiraine makes comments about the &quot;old blood&quot; running strong in the Two Rivers. And I can believe he lived at least on life in that great land. However, his memories from after the Finns are not necessarily al HIS mamories. He said he wanted the gaps in his memory filled. He didn't say by what or whose. He never said anything about wanting his own memories back. I think most of his clear memories of the past after the Finns are from various other wrriors and generals that may not even have had contact with any of his past lives.<br /><br />Sorry about the tangent. I really do like your post.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~<br />Shadow men talk a real good game<br />Every punchline has your name<br />You cried out and no one came to you<br />~Tom Petty~<br /><br />Is is bad that I hear WOT references in my music collection?</font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-01 09:14:28
subject: <b>A family thing</b>
body:
I agree that all of Mat's unexpected actions prior to the Rhuidean trip are attributable to the 'genetic memory' concept, as explained by Thom. But the memories that the Eelfinn filled his head with are from all across the land. He remembers battles in every area of the known world, and from many different perspectives. <br /><br />When Mat recognizes Birgitte, and they agree to keep one another's secrets, she comments that when he's speaking the Old Tongue, his accent is different each time, and she never mentions Manetheren, but widely dispersed places of ancient times. When the Old Tongue slips out of him, it is in the accent related to the one who's memory is causing it.<br /><br />Part of Mat's Old Tongue usage is &quot;the old blood singing&quot; out of his family past, and part is the various military memories that have been stuffed in his head to fill the holes caused by the Shadar Logoth Dagger's curse.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> Call me Tim <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-20 23:48:51
subject: <b>Love it but...</b>
body:
Anything resonable about mat, i find great. I think Mat, with his memories and battle experiance is awsome<br /><br />But anyway<br /><br />I disagree, mainly because the twisted doorway people are VERY litteral. It has been said that the doorways were most often used by generals and princes, captains and high ranking military men, for help coming up (i have no idea where, i am realy sorry about that) Obviously, this would be what the people through the door way know the most about. When mat asked for his memories filled, he got the filled - with whatever was lying around.<br /><br />OF course this is all for a purpose, mat will be Rand's top general for the last battle, before he gets fed up with being on the sidelines and runs into the thick of things. We all know thats the truth <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Calis, Lover of many<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sleepy.gif" border="0" /> Spettio - One and True Love &quot;Moo&quot;<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /> Rhapsody - Sinfilled Love<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> Hollie - Forbbiden Love<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/clown.gif" border="0" /> B.Alicia - Emotional Love<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shy.gif" border="0" /> Clover - Love in Waiting<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /> Catriona - Princess Bride Love</font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-28 07:30:53
subject: <b>New blood</b>
body:
Basic problem with concept old blood is that everyone should have it, bc every person living in Randland is descendant of people who survived breaking of the world just 3000 years ago. That time is too short for radical changes in genomes of people and I don't know any reason why people living in Manetheren should have had special abilities. So people in Manetheren had to get their special talents during 1000 years after breaking, bc bf that Breaking people mingled, or they moved a lot, so there could not be any groups of people who were different than another groups of people. People Traveled used Showings and so on. So how people of Manetheren got their special talents and where people with new blood came from?


created: 2001-07-03 04:29:06
subject: <b>Mat can channel.</b>
body:
I don't think he has the spark, but Mat can surely channel.  If not all along, than since the doorways.  Isn't the best protection against Aes Sedai to become one?  The Foxhead is just a joke.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="blue"><b>Arok Manok</b></font><font color="green"> - Ex-admin Extraordinaire</font><br />Future Post-Apocalypse Warlord<br /><br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/2241.gif" /><br /><br />I'd rather be throwing a frisbee right now</font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-15 12:19:41
subject: <b>in addition to the genetic memory...</b>
body:
Correct me if i'm wrong, but don't the wolves remember their ancestors memorys of hunting with men?<br /><br />just a thought.


created: 2001-07-18 14:28:29
subject: <b>just a small thought.....But i do agree!!</b>
body:
well basically i thought that the author of this theory said that mat started speaking old tongue right after the twisted doorway...but mat spoke fluently in the old tongue b4 that ..wat about in these doorways...<br />after mat is thrown out of the first doorway he meets rand and moiraine and rand says sumthing about a translatlor.<br />But mat didnt have 1 he had been able to talk to these snakey folk neway.  i believe that mat could always speak in the old tongue he just had to forget himself enough to do so....like nyneaves block!-he had a block preventing him too...the finns just well removed the block (how kind of them!)<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/myrddraal.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-08-03 09:12:50
subject: <b>Second that</b>
body:
I agree with the block theory also.  It just seems too shady for Jordan to fill his memories with whatever and have Matt speak the old tounge from the begining of the book also.  Jordan has a way of tying things together, and I believe he will tie this up as well.  In supporting the block theory...who said they were actually holes in matts memory?  Maybe like Nyn he blocks those memories, and at the time those memories were begining to bust through (becasue of the tainted dagger experince) and matts block wouldn't allow him to realize these memories so it denied access to those memories and in replace left a feeling of emptiness like something is suppose to be there.  All the finn guys did was lift the block and open the floodgates to his memories that were always there....Perrin and his ability to talk with wolves (a lost gift from the past), Rand and Dragon Reborn (enough said), and Matt and battles, memories, and the old way (almost like an ability).  Anyway, just a thought <br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> ,<br />AC<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;I could die for you, but I couldn't and wouldn't live for you&quot;--Ayn Rand 'The Fountainhead'<br /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Philosopher of the Ages <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /> Master of Time Wasting <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> One Who Does Nothing At Work <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-12-06 17:50:44
subject: <b>Mat channel? dont think so..</b>
body:
Mat touches a a'dam in ebou dar, but dont feel any pain. It is proven that men whith the spark to channel or the ability to learn, cannot touch a adam whitout suffering horrible pain. Therefore Mat + channeling = NoWay


created: 2001-12-13 14:07:35
subject: <b>almost</b>
body:
I agree with everything in your theory except the last paragraph i dont think Mat can channel and I would be very dissapointed if RJ made another main character a channie.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lan.gif" border="0" /> scarred warder of the orange death Ajah <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sammy.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> Lyjan Morillin <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />


created: 2002-01-25 10:28:09
subject: <b>No sparky for Mat</b>
body:
If Mat could channel he'd be alomost untouble. He could sit back and throw lightning bolts all over and laugh when ever some silly Aes Sedai tried to use the One Power against him. Ontop of that he always has his trusty knives and spear.<br /><br /><br />Hmm? That would make rand no longer needed I believe. Maybe I'm wrong.


created: 2002-04-11 20:41:22
subject: <b>Genetic memory = the death of reincarnation.</b>
body:
The genetic memory link is a rather novel idea, in certain regards. However, the flaws in it are rather obvious if you stop and truly look at it. Genetic memory falls along the same lines as animal instinct and evolution, since it is an acquired 'trait' developed for survival. HOWEVER, one does not need a genetic memory to understand that 'fire is hot and will hurt you' and one can easily argue that if fire was even a RECENT discovery, it wouldn't take too long before people were wary of it, simply for its physical properties. Sitting with your back to the door, likewise, is something obvious to anyone who has a remote understanding of vulnerabilities; ie what you can't see can suprise and kill you. Again, it doesn't take a 'genetic memory' to teach us that. Simply being paranoid or put in threatening situations enough times will do that to a person. Sitting against a secured surface, with your face towards the open, is not that hard to grasp.<br /><br />What does this have to do with Mat? Simply that the theory of genetic memory is what the scientific community uses to explain what could be, and is, best explained by the metaphysical theory of reincarnation. When Mat does something that points to his being there before (reincarnation,) very often the incident is simply too specific to have the general characteristics of a 'common ancestral acquired memory.' Speaking in the Old Tongue and leading men wisely or bravely into battle ,or declaiming 'I am no Aes Sedai meat' in the Old Tongue, is certainly not a 'generic human trait' and therefore fails the characteristics of a 'genetic memory.' Wild cats have learned to stalk and suddenly leap upon their prey, but they use those techniques against EVERY prey, whether it be wilderbeast, antelope, or, if you go back far enough to a sabre-tooth cat, a wooly mammoth. It is a generic, and essential, tool for survival, thus it would be necessary to pass it along as an 'instinct.' <br /><br />Also, the more complex something is, the harder it is to master or gain mastery over. The reason animals can pass along instinctual behaviours is because those behaviours are very very BASIC and necessary to their survival, stripped down to their bare essentials. The harder you make something, the harder it is to remember. The sheer amount of genius and nuance it takes to command troops on a battlefield, especially back then when information was not instantaneously relayed via satellites and digital imagery, cannot be underestimated, and thus fails as something that could be passed on as a 'genetic memory,' but is more than possible as a memory related to an actual individual you once were (reincarnation.)<br /><br />Also, if you discount the theory of reincarnation, then you discount the entire premise of the series; namely that Rand is the Dragon Reborn. If Mat is not his memories, then Rand's claims fail, and thus is only Lews Therin's pupil, not Lews Therin himself. Certainly, the split between Rand and the voice in his head could be explained psychologically (seeing himself different from then, therefore needing to seperate the two aspects of himself, then and now) but if you see it as literal, then the entire series is shaken to its core. I am not sure you want to do that.


created: 2002-06-30 04:05:51
subject: <b>genetic memory needs long time to settle ...</b>
body:
in the blood, DNA ore habbits like the caveman thing. <br /><br />But Mat&#180;s memories all lie in the time between the Trolloc Wars and Arthur Hawkwing.  <br /><br />&quot;Those were the earliest and latest of the memories that had been planted in his skull. Nothing after Arthur Paendrag Tanreall, and nothing before Maecine of Eharon.&quot; (The Fires of Heaven, Birdcalls by Night)<br /><br />That&#180;s just a period of about thousand years, that lie thousand years back.<br /><br />And what about Brigitte&#180;s fading memories of her past??


created: 2002-08-25 10:36:07
subject: <b>the real answer.</b>
body:
in a interview with RJ, a question was just as if the memories Mat have was from his former lifes, as you remembner he got them after pasing true the ter- in the aiel desert.<br /><br />The holes in his memory is a result of the sickness he got in Shador Ghul, in the seconds portal ter- he entered the rules was different but he did not know, he wanted to get ride of trhe holes in him memory so the tel- filled them with other memories.<br /><br />Exeuse my really bad english now, but that is kinda whaty rj said.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>s</b>&amp;nbsp;<b>h</b>&amp;nbsp;<b>a</b>&amp;nbsp;<b>b</b></font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-17 12:46:59
subject: <b>Just one thing</b>
body:
MAT CAN'T CANNEL!!!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/min.gif" border="0" /> &lt;== Is she Min? I've always thought she has brown eyes</font><p></p>


created: 2002-11-25 03:12:08
subject: <b>Just wanted to add</b>
body:
That if you look at it, Genetic memory would be passed down when a ancestor had sex with another ancestor.  So why does Mat remember battles he didnt come out of alive?  Just a flaw i saw in it, i guess he could remember if his ancestors like you know did it on the field while fighting but thats pretty err ahh messed up.<br /><br />Ash


created: 2002-12-05 11:49:18
subject: <b>Good!!</b>
body:
I totally agree with you except the part about Mat channeling. I have seen theory after theory bashing it down, but people keep bringing it up. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> Oh well, it was good anyway.


created: 2003-01-09 17:21:52
subject: <b>I agree....mostly</b>
body:
I agree 100% with the genetic memory bit, but Mat being able to channel is a bit far-fetched.. Wouldn't the &quot;spark&quot; have already manifested itself in him.. and you cant exactly say that his medallion has anything to do with it not mainfesting because he has taken it off for periods of time and didnt have it before the fox-folk gave it to him. Wouldn't it have manifested about the same time as Rand's did or before if he could channel?


created: 2003-09-11 22:51:23
subject: <b>Genetic Memory</b>
body:
Genetic Memory would not be a true memory. Your DNA doesnt change as you grow so how could you possibly pass memories of things that happened after you were born. Genetic Memory would instead be instintual(sp?).


created: 2004-10-22 06:27:09
subject: <b>This theory keeps popping up out of the damn grave....</b>
body:
&gt; Mat can't channel. He touched an a'dam. That makes his inability to channel a fact, not a theory, because male channelers can't touch the a'dam without feeling pain. Second of all, do you really want him to channel? I mean, come on. The point of Mat is that he's all weapons, and he's got that sexy ashanderai from the Age of Legends, and like a million knives up his sleeve. I do not want to see him trade those in for lightning bolts.<br /><br />&gt; Genetic memory is the memory of an instinct, not an actual visual memory, like what Mat had after being Healed. Let's use your door example. With genetic memory, you'll just feel uncomfortable doing it, because it's instinct (it's also logic, but that's another thing.) You won't remember actually sitting across from a door all those thousands of years ago, and what the door looked like, and who walked in at noon... Also, and I this --ing hilarious. You mentioned that there were too many clues lying around for Mat to channel, and yet you're willing to pass off his memories as just &quot;genetic memory&quot;? And there are no clues. Those are just so that we won't think, &quot;Where the hell are all these channelers coming from?&quot; Warders can't channel, so the King being the Queen's Warder means nothing. I think you're reading way too much into nothing, and far too little into everything.<br /><br />&gt; Thirdly, you lost all credibility when you said you believed that Mat's memories from the ter-angreal are from his ancestors, too. Jordan gave a flat out &quot;no&quot; when asked if that was the case. And then later on explained that they really were just memories from other men who walked through the doorway, with no relations to Mat at all.


created: 2001-07-31 20:35:12
subject: <b>Galad Damodred seems to be Hawkwing</b>
body:
It has always been my assumption that if Hawkwing is back, it is in the form of Galad. (Hates Aes Sedia, very perfect, and something just not right)It seems there were other things that pointed me to this conclusion but I can't think of them now. Hasn't anyone else made this connection?


created: 2001-08-07 23:48:06
subject: <b>well...</b>
body:
Everyone else seems to think Galad is Jearom, (Which he is NOT!  I think it's Gawyn) but I think you could very well be right.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ph34r!</font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-11 15:27:22
subject: <b>WHAT?!?!</b>
body:
Galad or Gawn as Jerom?!?!?!?   Are u kidding me?  We have a character named Lan in the WOT series, in case u forgot..im sorry, but he would OWN Galad and Gawn together worse than Mat did.  Did u read what he did to that Toram Raitin dude in WH?  Rand chases Fain out of the room then slashes his face and sees him running away when Lan comes out with a bloody sword..remember, Raitin was just as good as Rand, and i think that Rand is atleast equal to Galad or Gawn.  When he was kidnapped, he killed one warder with his bare hands, then killed another before the Aes Sedia could even stop him!!!  Warders are blademasters!!


created: 2001-12-21 04:43:28
subject: <b>Mat [or others] can't be Hawkwing Reborn</b>
body:
When Mat blew the Horn, Hawkwing came, but the Dragon didn't because he was currently reborn as Rand.  If Hawkwing had been reborn at that time, he wouldn't have come at Falme.<br /><br />Raistlan<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Raistlan<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> I think you may have me confused with someone else. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-02 12:25:50
subject: <b>toram riatin</b>
body:
was not as good as rand.  rand fought him once, without using the oneness, and the only reason toram won is because rand got distracted by a cry for help.  <br /><br />sincerely,<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />the lover of light and wisdom<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" />the all-seeing eye<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />the wandering wotmaniac<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-09 17:38:03
subject: <b>Comments about Lan and Toram</b>
body:
Interestingly,<br />         Lan is portrayed to be one badass untouchable swordfighter, and he is probably the best active swordsman in WoT,<br />   but I'm not so sure he is greatly above the rest of the competition.  In New Spring, Lan defeats Ryne by a very small margin.<br />        One comment Moraine made was that &quot;It seems Ryne was wrong as well as a darkfriend.  You were better than he.&quot;<br />        Lan replied, &quot;He was better.  But he thought I was finished, with only one arm.  He never understood.  You surrender after you're dead.&quot;<br />        Bukama was also at least as good or better than Lan with a sword.  <br />        I'm sure Elyas is probably at least as good,and most likely better, than Lan with the sword.  <br />          Lan was probably in his late twenties when New Spring happened, which means he probably had already reached come very close to his full potential.<br />          The only other comment I can add is that Lan being bonded might have increased his ability at the swords.<br /> So, with all these other people that just about match Lan, I don't think Lan is Jearom reborn, but I think that he probably is one of the heros from the horn reborn.<br />        I was really surprised to see that Robert Jordan gave so little attention to the duel between Lan and Toram Riatin.  It was almost as if Toram was an amateur beside Lan, based on the one sentence description by Jordan.  <br />       I think it is fun to consider how Lan ranks in comparison to other blademaster-types such as Valda, Elyas, Galad, Gawyn, Rand, and Shaidar Harnan.  <br /><br />           Someone, mentioned something earlier about Rand and Toram fighting with swords twice, the first time being without the void.  As I recall Rand only fought Toram once.  Remember, Toram did not know Rand was the Dragon Reborn when he was fighting him.  If Toram had fought Rand before, he would have known who Rand was the second time.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ADA- AlannaDawn Anonymous-- helping wotmaniacs recovering from their AlanndaDawn Addictions in a dynamic new 12-step program.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-10 07:59:46
subject: <b>It cant be</b>
body:
know one can be Hawkwing, becaus he is still tied to the wheel. Or unless he decided to poses a body after Flame.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br />-I know i have bad spelling and punctuation you dont have to point it out to me- <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rand.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-blue.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-15 00:12:02
subject: <b>One reason this is true</b>
body:
Hawkwing was among those brought back by the horn in TGH.  If hawkwing was reborn in Mat then he could not have been summoned by the horn.


created: 2002-07-09 16:59:19
subject: <b>Mat is Aemon</b>
body:
Too many allusions have been made about it, and that would explain why Aemon wasn't there when Mat sounded the Horn of Valere.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br /><i>I will try. Before surrendering to dreams or death, I will try.<font color="black"></font></i></font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-25 04:05:46
subject: <b>exactly</b>
body:
in Glimmers one of the questions RJ gets is about Mat and RJ answers that it is just memories to fill up with. since he asked for that he wanted memories not his own memories.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> Wielder of the HOlY Kizer <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lan.gif" border="0" /> Warder of Andor <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lan.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/crazy.gif" border="0" /> The sleepiest dude in the world <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/crazy.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-12-18 09:53:08
subject: <b>Not Hawkwing</b>
body:
Teh mother of all reasons why Mat CANNOT be Hawkwing is:<br />when MAT blew the Horn of Valere HAWKWINg appeared.<br />Hawking would not be able to appear as a Hero of the horn while he's actually himslef blowing it in one of his reincarnations.<br />If Mat belw the Horn now, we would for instance neither see Gaidal, of whom we know he has been Reborn meanwhile (Birgitte states so) and Birgitte would be missing, too. Since she's there in the flesh!<br /><br />So logic tells us a reborn Hero will not show up among the others, who are currently staying in T'A'R, when he's been reborn meanwhile.<br />Conclusion: Mat cannot be Hawkwing. NO WAY


created: 2004-03-08 13:59:02
subject: <b>This Theory is Correct...But For The Wrong Reason</b>
body:
This theory is correct in the fact that Mat is not Hawking reborn.  However, the assumption used in coming to this conclusion is incorrect.  Mat has memories that were given to him by the Snakes and Foxes.  It is very possible for Mat to remember winning and losing the same battle.  Mat has memories from multiple people and not just Hawking.  The reason Mat can not be Hawking is b/c when he blew the Horn, Hawking rode out.  Only heroes who have not been reborn ride out when the Horn is blown.  You did not see LTT ride out b/c he has been reborn as Rand.


created: 2005-05-23 14:26:12
subject: <b>Lol</b>
body:
I've always believed he wasn't Hawkwing solely on the fact that Mat HATES Hawkwing. He never once served the man in any of his memories, only fought him as enemies, and almost always lost to him. And he's always saying what a hard man Hawkwing was, and how difficult to get along with. It would make no sense if he ended up BEING Hawkwing.


created: 2006-04-07 08:55:46
subject: <b>My theory on Mat, Hawkwing and Ameon</b>
body:
Thats not true almira Mat recalls working in hawkwings court in one of his old memories anyway mat cant be the reason you give for matt not being Hawkwing was that hawkwing was among those brought back by the horn in TGH. If hawkwing was reborn in Mat then he could not have been summoned by the horn yes this makes sense but the reason ive always thought mat was Hawkwing was because the Alefin called him the King of Battles and the fact that mat has no love for Aes'Sedai however i hardly think theres support for him being Ameon either as Ameon loved and was married to an Aes'sedai, Eldrene ay Ellan ay Carlon and as weve heard matt state time and time gain in all the books andso far and I qoute &quot;A man would have to be crazy to jump into bed with Aes'Sedai id rather jump into a pit of vipers atleast with the vipers id have half a chance&quot;<br /><br />SO heres my theory i think that mat is both Hawkwing and Ameon and neither i think he is mixture of the two heros because things in visions dreams etc etc always to point to both such as the red eagle of manetheren, and mats title the King of battles aswell as hawkwings golden hawk in flight and in the WOT Companion it states how hawkwing got his name.<br /><br /><br />by FY942 general Arthur Paendrag Tanreall was called Hawkwing his personal sigil was the Golden Hawk and the banner of Shandalle featured three golden hawks in flight but everyone agreed that the name came from the speed with which he could move his troops and several of the great generals of wot world such as gareth bryne Bashere have stated that mats army can move faster then any they had ever seen before. so the fact still remians if he isnt Hawkwing and he isnt ameon and im sure some of you will say he cant be both then who is he?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Far ayende far shain e far daishar <br />Birgitte Rules!!! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/birgitte.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-01 10:25:15
subject: <b>Yep yep, and nope.</b>
body:
I've posted elsewhere my belief that Perrin will rule a New Manetheren, and how that will come to pass. The destroyer, protector, builder comparison of the three ta'veren friends is right on. Perrin having the confidence of the people because of his nature and link to common folk will be significant. All that is agreed.<br /><br />Ethenielle isn't the ruler of Saldaea, that's Tenobia, who is Faile's cousin. I don't know if it's clear whether Uncle Davram would be next closest in line to the Saldaean throne in the case of Tenobia's death, but it's possible since she isn't married yet. But Lord Bashere has that broken crown in his own history, and I think it far more likely that we'll see that be restored and come to Perrin and Faile, than for them to become the rulers of Saldaea.<br /><br />Isn't Ethenielle from Kandor?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> Call me Tim <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-29 21:26:25
subject: <b>Me again</b>
body:
Perin is  important he shal save Rands life one more time (i think) and he might end up as the leader of the world.<br /><br />To tim<br />She is she is she is she is she is (hope you got that)<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" />Death comes to us all why fear it<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-09-03 02:53:00
subject: <b>stuff</b>
body:
in the prologues to one of the latest books (i forget which ) it states that davram bashere is next in line to the throne of saldea after tenobia.As it stands anyway (whoever said it seems to think that tenobia will never marry, as she is too picky when it comes to men - typical woman). I have serious doubts about perrin becoming some sort of ruler of the world. I still think rand will NOT die at shayol ghul, rather rand as the embodiment of Lews Therin will die.


created: 2001-09-21 03:55:45
subject: <b>Ain't Ethenielle, but Tenobia</b>
body:
Tnobia is the queen of Saldea not Ethenielle.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Lord Sigmar<br /><br />Today is a good day to die</font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-03 14:20:55
subject: <b>perrin as protector</b>
body:
Min's viewing says that Perrin needs to be with Rand twice or something bad will happen.  That seems more of a protector to me.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Follower of Lan <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lan.gif" border="0" /> <br />Married now <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/oh.gif" border="0" /><br />Loves Japanese history <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ninja.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" />Historian of History<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lan.gif" border="0" />Mandrag<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lan.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-26 02:13:43
subject: <b>to Call_Me_Tim</b>
body:
Yes, Ethenielle is from Kandor, and to the theory itself, NO, the borderland monarchs are NOT marching AGAINST Rand. Just making my point. And regarding the axe, Perrin doesn't like the axe but still needs to cut down trees in the future since wood is still a major building material there. Unless someone discovered concrete? <br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bela.gif" border="0" /> The Horse of Eternity <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bela.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> The Dark Werewolf <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Elan Morin Tedronai, Lord of the Dark, Sightblinder, Keeper of the Dragons</font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-26 01:29:17
subject: <b>I agree mostly</b>
body:
The only thing I want to add is that Rand, Mat and Perrin also have other roles in a trinity against the DO. Rand represents the one power, Mat the people of humanity and Perrin nature. With each one responsible for leading thier respective elements towards the last battle. A unity of all 3 forces of Randland against the DO.


created: 2002-01-24 00:49:36
subject: <b>bleach!</b>
body:
1.  Perrin will be a major developing character.<br />2.  Faile will die.(I hope)<br />3.  I VERY strongly doubt that RJ will right very much more about WoT after TG.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" />Rand will not die<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" />Egwene will<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />ashaman04</font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-22 17:15:36
subject: <b>fighting wolves</b>
body:
I'm new around here but I think that Perrin is something worth talking about. I've heard many ppl's opinions but no one seems to agree that Perrin's ability to summon wolves will be of any help at TG. Since wolves hate so much the creatures of the DO and would unrestfully fight till they die, I think a reasonably huge pack of wolves led by Perrin will do Rand a lot of good at TG...


created: 2002-05-30 11:29:34
subject: <b>Very Nice</b>
body:
Good work with this theory, and I definatly agree!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> &quot;Yes Forsaken,&quot; Moiraine said, her voice as cold as deep-winter ice. &quot;Past time!&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Heroes are the people who do what has to be done, when it needs to be done, regardless of the consequences.<br /><br />     -Silverlight<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-08 12:19:08
subject: <b>I mostly agree</b>
body:
I would have to agree on a lot of this post. Perrin is the most likely candidate to lead after TG. Rulers follow Rand in fear. So far the only ruler that Perrin has following him is following him by choice (Taveren too, but also choice). <br /> As far as the return of Manetheran to a country in its own right, I say no. <br />  The Wheel of Time turns, and Ages come and pass, leaving memories that become legends. Legends fade to myth and even myth is long fogotten when the age that gave it birth comes again.<br /> I think that Manetheren will remain a small part of Andor for years and years. Perring will probably stay lord, but he will also be King of Saldea and rule Ghealdan through... uh what's her name that swore fealty to him in WH. As a lord of an Andoran province, those extra titles should give him a good bit of sway with Elayne, so he will not be far from ruling there as well. It just makes sense that Rand will appoint him an Overlord type ruler over all other nations, with Mat to command the combined armies, before TG hits. Sort of like a UN with a lot more power and all manifested in one person. <br />Gotta go now. Hope this makes sense, didn't have much time.


created: 2002-12-04 22:03:26
subject: <b>Unifier</b>
body:
Yes but here is the biggest peice of &quot;evidence&quot; for his being the actual Unifier and builder afterwards: He already has four nations tied to him in a non-fear route.<br /><br />1) Manetherin (His own, and yes it will be a nation)  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br />2) Andor (Morgase has served under him)<br />3) Alandre (?) (the Gheldean girl who's already sworn to him)<br />4) Mayene (through Berlaine, plus no matter what i dont think she will ever totaly let go of him)


created: 2003-01-27 11:10:07
subject: <b>Perrin as the leader of the world</b>
body:
Perrin, the down to earth country boy blacksmith the ruler of the world? quite possibly.<br /><br />One thing that is a constant thread throughout the WOT books is that characters quite often end up doing that which they least wish. <br /><br />Mat the one who wants the quiet life of drinking, carousing, and gambling, not being tied to any one place or person, is always in danger leader of the best fighting force in the Westlands fated to marry a noblewoman - DOTNM<br /><br />Rand - the Dragon Reborn - he really didn't want that.<br /><br />Perrin - Just perrin not Lord - The Ruler of the World???<br /><br />Of course being Taveren shapes the persons life not leaving much choice so it could just be that.<br /><br />Just a thought.


created: 2003-03-24 00:44:54
subject: <b>Include Loial?</b>
body:
Great theory.  I too was wondering how Perrin is going to fit into the whole plot.  One point to consider is how close Perrin is to Loial.  Sure the other characters are friend with Loial, but I believe that Perrin is his closest friend.  Witht the help of the Ogier's masonary abilities, Perrin could help build a world that would make Tar Valon seem as drab as a Borderland town.


created: 2004-02-29 15:39:46
subject: <b>Perrin's Wolves</b>
body:
Don't forget also that wolves are expected to be at the Last Battle. There history with the Trollocs cretainly suggests this. Surely their hatred of Trollocs will send them there, if nothing else. Therefore Perrin's role would be command them, insofar as wolves will follow orders. They followed him at Dumai's Wells, so why not at Tarmon Gaidon<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" />The wheel wills as the wheel wells...no wait...the wheel wills as the weel wells...hang on...the wheel weaves as the wheel walls...errr...the wheel...you know what? Sh*t Happens.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />I apologise here for the awful spelling in the message</font><p></p>


created: 2004-10-03 22:55:16
subject: <b>Huh?</b>
body:
Why is everyone so convinced that Perrin is the Builder?  What has Perrin done to build?  He's a leader and protector.  Check out the end of TGH, with the Heroes of the Horn.  I think Hawkwing sums it up pretty nicely:  Perrin, as the &quot;Bannerman,&quot; is the protective vanguard, while Mat, the &quot;Hornsounder,&quot; is more of an inspirer and uniter (the Seanchan, for instance).


created: 2001-03-22 00:00:00
subject: <b>Perrins past lives</b>
body:
In The Dragon Reborn (pg 67 paperback) Perrin has a "dream" were he is wearing a gilded helmet worked like a lions head and some other armor. He feels as if it belonged on him. The axe was hanging at his side and a voice in his head, his own, told him he would choose over any other weapon and that he had carried it a thousand times, in a hundred battles.<br />Was he remembering past lives or was it Lanfear, who appeared to him right after this, trying to influence him into something. I havn't heard any thing about this on the Theory post before. Maybe I missed something.


created: 2001-06-29 21:30:53
subject: <b>Perin king of the world</b>
body:
Perin will rule randland after the Last(?)battle!!!!!!<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />better beeing dead than beeing old<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-08-31 00:26:29
subject: <b>Ummm.... No</b>
body:
Artur Hawkwing was from Shandalle, in the middle of Randland. Nowhere close to Saldea. Look in the guide thing.


created: 2001-10-17 15:01:46
subject: <b>PERRIN WILL RULE!</b>
body:
Read the title silly!  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-10-26 12:53:38
subject: <b>Perrin the KING</b>
body:
RJ is setting up Perrin to rule a big chunk of the &quot;Westlands&quot; certainly. He is married to someone who is third in line to being a queen. I think Tenobia and Bashere will die, giving Faile(and thus Perrin) the throne. Remember, Perrin is also Alliandre's Liege Lord. In a country with a problem of succession, an unstable queen gives her titles to a ta'veren. Ghealdean is so his. I don't think he will get all of the world though, because unless Elayne, Rand, and their children die, there is someone to rule the east part. I do think Perrin could sweep over the western shores and return order to Arad Doman and Tarabon. I think Galad will rule over Amadicia, the Whitecloaks, and possibly Ebou Dar. <br /><br />One other thing. I can completely understand Perrin raising Manetheren, but why throw Saldaea into the mix? Better if Faile had been cousin to the queen of Ghealdean. I hope we will get to see some development in this area soon


created: 2001-11-11 20:51:27
subject: <b>Perrin isn't at all like hawkwing</b>
body:
Elenye already has a prbelm with Perrin if he tries to take anymore contries then the three that are pretty much his I think he would end up with a dagger in his back.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> Master of Wolves <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> King of Fire <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Weilder of Balefire <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br />      Maldais <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/myrddraal.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-12-14 13:50:21
subject: <b>Can't be Hawkwing</b>
body:
While it is possible that Perrin could play a similar role to that Of Artur Hawkwing, I think it is just about impossible for either Him or Mat to be Hawkwing reborn.  I say this because in the end of The Great Hunt, Mat sounds the HoV and all of the heroes, who are not currently alive in some incarnation, appear.  They are led by Artur Hawkwing, so it seems unlikely that Perrin or Mat could have fought side by side with their own entity.


created: 2002-02-05 00:44:58
subject: <b>Good theory</b>
body:
It's a good theory.  I could very well see Perrin setting up the creation of a vast united country, and then his son, whoever that could be (Artur Hawkwing reborn perhaps,) coming along and bringing them all back together.  My only qualm is that Hawkwing hasn't been dead long enough to be reborn, (or so i think), cuz it takes about 3000 years (Dragon took 3000, Gaidal Cain took about 3000, birgitte said that he had just been reborn).  Perhaps being ta'veren is a familial trait.  Who knows?  But a good theory nonetheless.


created: 2002-03-23 20:39:55
subject: <b>your wrong</b>
body:
if you read the guide carfully you will disscover that auther hawkingwing was the king of a country that is north of present day Tear<br /><br />get your facts straight please


created: 2002-03-29 14:23:01
subject: <b>Saldaea, and Ghealdan? Some Nation</b>
body:
Saldaea, Manetheren, and Ghealdan are separated by natural barriers that would screw up any union.  There's no road from Manetheren to Saldaea, but there's alot of land.  Ghealdan faces a similar problem- we learn in tEotW that the forests south of Deven Ride are nasty in nature and uncrossable.<br /><br />There's no way anyone could hold together a nation that is split so.  Except for Rand (Cai, Tear, Ill) but he DOES have Travelling, after all.<br /><br />Now, how about this for an idea.  Rand unites the nations for TG, and dies in the Last Battle.  PERRIN TAKES OVER.


created: 2002-05-02 08:30:15
subject: <b>Hawkwing was from where???</b>
body:
Hawkwing was King of Shandelle, which ran from about where Aringill is now and covered the land between where the Rivers Erinen and Alguenya diverge, to an area just north of and according to the map, including the city of Cairhien. About the only way he could be farther from Saldea would be if he was from Mayene or Tear. That and the fact that Perrin led Hawkwing and the other heros into battle at Falme after Mat blew the horn.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Tai'Shar Preussen!<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/seanchan.gif" border="0" /> Der Ritter des Lichtes  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> Lord Protector of the Lady B.Alicia <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-03 15:39:20
subject: <b>He's the king of the future nations</b>
body:
Well,the first is excuse for my english.I'm spanish fan asi q voy a escribir en espa&#241;ol lo siento si molesto a alguien.<br /><br />Yo creo q el papel q perrin va a desempe&#241;ar despu&#233;s de la &quot;&#250;ltima batalla&quot; ser&#225; el de unificar los restos q queden de las naciones despu&#233;s del nuevo desmembramiento,q creo q ser&#225; como acabar&#225; el tar'mon'gaidon.<br /><br /><br />Saludos desde Espa&#241;a del <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-05 13:21:26
subject: <b>Ghealdan was part of Manetheren</b>
body:
The title says it all. When Perrin raises the Manetheren flag in Ghealdan in PoD, it is mentioned that Ghealdan had been part of Manetheren at its height, natural barriers aside.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />I need a nap.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-25 15:51:04
subject: <b>Do Look at the Guide.</b>
body:
And I believe you will find that Manetheren, in addition to the far west of Andor, and Ghealdan, contained at least the southern have of Saldea.  And...if Faile's family comes from southern Saldea...as I seem to remember they do.  The &quot;broken crown&quot; could very well be the crown of Manetheren.  And her family could well be the heirs.<br /><br />So...with the Two Rivers and Ghealdan, he's just married the rest of Manetheren.<br /><br />And wasn't there some prophecy that Manetheren would be vital to defeating old Shai'tan at the end of this age?  And that's why Ishamael made such a point of crushing it during the Trolloc wars?


created: 2002-10-05 23:51:40
subject: <b>Perrin CANNOT be Artur Hawkwing</b>
body:
Please people.  Artur Hawkwing was called out of Ter'aran'rhoid by the Horn of Valere in the Great Hunt.  Perrin was alive then.  If Perrin were Artur Hawkwing reborn then Artur Hawkwing would NOT have come out of Ter'aran'rhoid because he wouldn't have been there.  When Elayne and Nynaeve meet Birgitte, she tells them that Gaidin (her lover) has been reborn and is therefore NOT IN tel'aran'rhoid anymore, and so therefore would not be called out by the Horn of Valere, so therefore, Artur Hawkwing still lives in tel'aran'rhoid and is therefore NOT Perrin.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Am I a star beneathe the stairs?<br />Am I a ghost upon the stage?<br />Am I your anything?</font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-12 17:19:38
subject: <b>sorry</b>
body:
We all know that Rand is Lews Therin reborn.  Lews Therin was not called when the Horn was blown because RAND WAS AT FALME.  If Perrin was Hawkwing reborn, Hawkwing would not have been called.<br /><br />At least thats how I see it.


created: 2003-01-08 03:59:40
subject: <b>hmm</b>
body:
Sounds interesting, though there's a mistake along the lines:<br />Saldea is not were Artur Hawkwing was born. He was born a prince of Sh-something (I think Shanell, Shonell or something similar but I don't have the Guide with me to check, so I won't pin my self done on that term), but that country was situated were in nowadays Randland is Cairhien, or rather part of Cairhien (central era sort of).<br />Apart from that: the Broken Crown has always been troubling me and somehow my mind insists on remembering it has some connection to &quot;Hawkingian&quot; times - don't ask why, it just feels like I remember that much..<br /><br />


created: 2003-06-09 14:05:53
subject: <b>Manetheren will nOT be raised now</b>
body:
It is a part of this 3rd Age- we will NOT see it again until the wheel has a full turning.  <br /><br />Daughter of the Sun-- Thank you, thank you, thank you.  Why can`t the readers see the wheel as it is?  I`ve just about given up on trying to enlighten them.<br /><br />The Broken Crown is the one on Tenobia`s head, placed there by Bashere {GLIMMERS-CoT}<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2004-06-18 17:51:05
subject: <b>Rand seems more a Hawkwing to me.</b>
body:
Look at what Hawkwing did.  He created an empire stretching from the waste to the ocean,and Rand is making one that strethes farther. But Hawkwing was not a builder, he is a destroyer.  He set up his Empire like bowling pins, and they got knocked down. and this started larger and bloodyer wars then there were before. Rand IS the destroyer, but os was Hawkwing. Perin is not like hawkwing.     <br />        May you find dry feet and a warm fire. <br />                       Terin


created: 2005-05-08 20:18:45
subject: <b>not possible</b>
body:
He can't be Hawkwing for a simple reason. Hawkwing was fighting the Seanchan in Falme. If Perrin was hawkwing he would not have been there.


created: 2001-07-14 05:43:12
subject: <b>finally</b>
body:
finnaly another jew! i was starting to feel lonly!<br /><br />ps are you from israel<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">i'm bored</font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-18 22:30:10
subject: <b>i think not</b>
body:
your 1st &#182; makes some sense, but you lose it in the 2d. where does it say that? not it the text, nor any commentataries, nor in midrashic. please tell me your source for this.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Yuri the Yid, Captain of the Black Orchid and overall really fierce Pirate <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/uno.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br />Warder to the beatiful Danu <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br />M-Cat Baseball- Its a way of life<br /><br />Vive Real Madrid!</font><p></p>


created: 2001-12-21 16:14:55
subject: <b>hello</b>
body:
im christian but have studied this, and you are 100% correct, and yes, strongbow, he is correct<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Hi! I'm a signature virus! Copy me to your signature, and help me spread!</font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-25 19:26:50
subject: <b>Not Enough Evidence</b>
body:
I'm afraid I have to poke a hole in your theory.  Rand/LTT/Dragon is arguably on the Creator's side, and we know the creator doesn't intervene, but...<br /><br />&quot;On that day the Lord with His great, cruel and mighty sword will punish [Leviathan the slant serpent, and Leviathan the tortuous serpent].&quot; (Isaiah 27:1)<br /><br />So the Creator intervenes and does so to the Light's detriment.  Not likely.<br /><br />Also, the idea of the Slant Serpent AND the Torturous Serpent indicates a duality of the Dragon, which is not revealed in WoT thus far.  And I don't think Ba'alzamon is the Torturous Serpent... because Ba'alzamon's counterpart is not the Dragon but, rather, the Creator.<br /><br />I am open-minded, however, and will welcome any new ideas.<br /><br />-Joshua Paquin<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" />Pretending to be a knowledgable scholar


created: 2002-02-07 18:33:56
subject: <b>Possibly..</b>
body:
The connection sounds quite plausible, and I think most of the critics of tihs theory tink it said Rand=Leviathan, and not DO=Leviathan as it really says. This does not have to mean that RJ have even read the Torah though. This story is not really unique to the Torah. It is as you said translated to become the Old Testament, but is do not stop there. Something resembling this story is known from many cultures, and it is proabably even older than the Torah! This means that RJ could have got these ideas from many scources, but my guess is simply that he have read the Bible (which seems to be easy to get hold of in the US). <br /><br /><br />I apologize if I have insulted anyones religion, and for my bad english. It's not always easy to be a norwegian atheist, in the international and mulit-cultural community. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />ProXimA<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" />The Norwegian Atheist<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-02-22 07:53:07
subject: <b>RJ definetly Jewish scholar</b>
body:
RJ definetly took inspiration from the Torah and the Talmud, but there is another hole in the theory.  In Jonah it is G-d who commanded haLevitan (yes, I know that's not the English spelling!) to spit Jonah out.  If, as you say, haLevitan is the DO, than the Creator certainly doesn't command the DO to do anything.  If, as it has been said many times, haLevitan refers to Rand, then we know it's just as invalid because the Creator never commands Rand, he merely sets the path and hopes Rand can follow it.  The Creator never directly intervenes, except for maybe that part at the end of EotW.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">It is not over, it is just the end.<br />Every end is a new beginning.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-08 15:15:54
subject: <b>RJ took from many religions</b>
body:
First off, nice theory, great insight.  Many people before have made the obvious religious connections between WoT and Norse mythology; you are the first I have seen to relate it to the Torah.<br /><br />I would also like to point out that RJ seems to take a great deal from the Bible too: <br />The 12 tribes of Isreal and the 12 desciples vs. the 12 Aiel Clans and the 12 Aiel septs.<br />Rand, the savior is a shephard, as is Jesus.<br />Rand, like Jesus, was not born of those who raised him.<br /><br />Of course, it would be hard to say that RJ's idea of rebirth and reincarnation came from anything but Eastern religions such as Buddhism and Hinduism.<br /><br />Anyway, I seem to have rambled...<br />Nice theory!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />&quot;TSOROVAN MISAIN YE&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gandalf.gif" border="0" />Arcane Invoker<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gandalf.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />Member of the Shadow Council<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-13 04:47:41
subject: <b>Don't think so</b>
body:
If you read the hebrew form IN HEBREW you'll understad that it IS Beraysheet and not Baraysheet. In hebrew there is no vowls, but there is something like it...<br />and I don't remember anything about that Leviathan...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /> an angel reborn <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-28 17:28:02
subject: <b>Mmmmm</b>
body:
'Moridin...I am your father'<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="blue"><img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /> <b>PROUDLY CELEBRATING 10 YEARS OF WOTMANIA!</b></font> <img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /><br /><br /><font color="purple"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <b>FAQ and WoT Admin</b></font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><font color="gray"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> <b>Part-time Philosopher of the Wheel</b> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /></font></font><p><a href="/wotmessageboard2showmessage.asp?MessageID=107993" target="_blank">New WoT quizzes!</a></p><p></p>


created: 2001-09-10 09:19:27
subject: <b>?</b>
body:
What in the name of everything good and holy were you doing reading the Bible?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i><font face="times new roman"><br />But the dogs you say they fed you to<br />Lay their muzzles in your lap<br />And the lions that they led you to<br />Lie down and take a nap</font><br /></i><font face="wingdings"><font color="blue">h</font></font></font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-10 17:59:58
subject: <b>Luke..</b>
body:
You are my father? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-05 12:03:39
subject: <b>say what????????</b>
body:
I dint meen to be disrespectful or anything but light, the Bible makes a Dr. Suess book seem like an easy read<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br />-I know i have bad spelling and punctuation you dont have to point it out to me- <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rand.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-blue.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-05 12:06:10
subject: <b>RAFO</b>
body:
look above, i know i have bad spelling but i ment DONT not DINT<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br />-I know i have bad spelling and punctuation you dont have to point it out to me- <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rand.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-blue.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-18 18:13:48
subject: <b>Following through</b>
body:
Following through with your theory to modern day, we see the crux or the beginnings of the stife between the Muslim religion and Christianity. Hummm - now what does that say about RJ's thinking.  Or may it just express my own slant on current day politics.  You see that Ishy was an illegitimate son (as we view things) and was cast out as you note.  Muslims see that the Ishmael character as the true son and follow his descendents. While Christians would argue that he is not the &quot;true&quot; son of Abraham.


created: 2003-07-13 05:14:45
subject: <b>following through what Asha man EB said...</b>
body:
If the muslims follow Ishmael, and Ishamael follow the DO, then the muslims follow the DO... <br />now seriosly: <br />Abraham can't be something like LTT or Rand, becouse in the Bible, when Abraham is mentioned, he's always mentioned with his son and grandson - Isaac and Jacob (Ytzhak and Yaakob)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /> an angel reborn <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-08-30 01:54:06
subject: <b>there's another Ishmael</b>
body:
The narrator of that book &quot;Moby Dick&quot; is also named Ishmael. But that's all I know. I never wanted to read that book, and I forget what the Cliff's Notes said.<br /><br />I recognized the similarity between the two names right away, but I am puzzled as to why RJ named a Forsaken Ishamael... the Ishmael in the Bible is a wanderer, or an outcast, but not at all evil, as far as I know.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="#99CCFF">Shall we go shopping for a dress? Or will it be bare breasts and ankles, all the way? -- Elizabeth Swann<br /></font><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-02-05 16:41:24
subject: <b>Also</b>
body:
2 religious groups actually spread from abraham, Jews and christians...which could be like the aiel and the tinkers...(hmmm?)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2006-03-30 18:52:20
subject: <b>Re: Also</b>
body:
Oddly enough the Jew-Christian/Tinker-Aiel connects holds up - at least on a superficial level - when scrutinized. Like the Tinkers, Jews hold to an ancient and somewhat marginalized religious belief, and have not had a homeland to call their own (until recently some would say, but lets not open up that can of worms). They have been persecuted and misunderstood historically, just as the Tinkers have in WoT. Like the Aiel who forsoke the 'way of the leaf', Christians were initially followers of Judaism - before St Paul's conversions among the gentiles - who abandoned it for a new belief system. This system was much less demanding in many ways, and the Christians like the Aiel grew and strengthed, marginalizing their own progenitors. As I already stated, this is a horribly superficial and flawed hypothesis, but it does fit in many ways. The first glaring flaw that occurs to me is that Christianity quickly became a dominant force in world affairs - taking only a few centuries to gain dominance - while it took the Aiel much longer to emerge as a military power, and their cultural and social conventions never enjoyed the widespread power of those of Christianity.<br /><br />Back on the Ishmael topic, I must add that this is not the only pseudo-Hebrew name in the series. A number of the Forsaken and other characters also have distinctly ancient-Semitic names.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Honk if your Demandred... Please!&quot;<br /><br />Jak'O</font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-03 10:58:50
subject: <b>was there not...</b>
body:
a viewing by min stating something to the effect of an eye on a balancing scale?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Can you see the line where the water ends?<br />Draws itself off into oblivion...</font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-13 08:55:28
subject: <b>Heimdall</b>
body:
What I remeber, Heimdall blew a horn right before the last battle (Horn of Valere?) That way, if any of Mats unborn sons will play a big role in tarmon Gaidon, Mat has to be dead, otherwise, the Horn wont give any Heroes.


created: 2002-06-04 18:00:55
subject: <b>mins veiwing</b>
body:
doesnt min view around mat an eye on a balance scale? i cant find the qoute but i am pretty sure she does somewhere.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> trust is the colour of death <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br />mynamestodamnlong <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br />


created: 2002-09-28 08:23:40
subject: <b>AAARRRGGGHHH</b>
body:
Will you stop it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!<br />I'm sure that everone has had enogh of the WOT/mythology links. RJ is probably not even aware that he has made these links, it's just theorists, who like to make the same point over and over again. how about this I'll just summarise.<br />Rand is the king/lord figure. thats all you need to know.<br /><br />Knower of all things mythalogical<br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> sister of veritas <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/birgitte.gif" border="0" /> <br />   Lady of honour <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br />     carri


created: 2003-05-23 01:29:57
subject: <b>Gah!</b>
body:
Odin hung himself from Yggdrasil to obtain knowledge of the runes. He hung there for nine days impaled by his own spear. <br />He sacrified his eye to Mimer so that he could drink the water from Mimer's Well and obtain wisdom.<br />


created: 2003-05-23 02:31:40
subject: <b>Some minor corrections...</b>
body:
Saga was Odin's only daughter with Frigga, not his wife.<br />Rind was raped by Odin when he was disguised as a woman.<br />Gunlod was not Odins wife, he just slept with her to get his hands on some enchanted mead.<br />Odin had a son with Grid, but i don't think they were married.<br />Jord was married with Fjorgynn, but had Thor with Odin<br />And finally Skadi, a giantess, who was married with the Aesir Njord.<br />Odin was however married with Frigga.<br /><br />Geirrod didn't commit suicide. His death was an accident.<br />


created: 2001-09-10 09:10:09
subject: <b><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />))))))))))</b>
body:
I like all this Norse mythology stuff.<br />( I'M FROM NORWAY I'M FROM NORWAY I'M FROM NORWAY I'M FROM NORWAY I'M FROM NORWAY I'M FROM NORWAY I'M FROM NORWAY!!!!!)<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i><font face="times new roman"><br />But the dogs you say they fed you to<br />Lay their muzzles in your lap<br />And the lions that they led you to<br />Lie down and take a nap</font><br /></i><font face="wingdings"><font color="blue">h</font></font></font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-11 09:47:14
subject: <b>So do I.</b>
body:
And I like other myths and legends.<br /><br />I'M FROM EARTH, I'M FROM EARTH, I'M FROM EARTH.<br /><br />although I'm not too sure about the rest of the human race.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/myrddraal.gif" border="0" />Lord_Foul<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/disapprove.gif" border="0" />One day I'll spend more than 2 minutes on a post<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/disapprove.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-05-14 00:16:38
subject: <b>Need a hand?</b>
body:
the bit about Tyr losing his hand to Fenrir could have to do something with Perrin attacking Rand later; there is the risk of going to deep into the Wolfdream, like that guy with yellow eyes that Perrin let go


created: 2001-04-30 00:00:00
subject: <b>HAHA!</b>
body:
I would tend to agree with Wotmania on this one, but that will still not stop me from using this space for my own selfish, and let's face it,  purposes.  I am going to state a theory of my own which many of you may have already seen due to the fact that I am attempting to pist one in every category. <p>[ahem]...I was in the middle of my fourth reading of WoT, when something jumped out at me like a kangaroo on .  Assuming that the one power really is the force that turns the wheel of time, and assuming that my memory serves me in my recolection of an age without the power, then how would that age ever end.  If no one used the power, then the wheel wouldn't turn.  What would happen.  Maybe the creator gives the wheel a spin out of sheer boredom, or maybe the power is discovered at the very end of that age, causing the wheel to turn, and creating the first channelers of that turning of the wheel.  please mail me your thoughts.<br />                                       sincerely,<br />                                       Lucifer<img src="images/devil.gif" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />the lover of light and wisdom<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" />the all-seeing eye<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />the wandering wotmaniac<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font></p><p></p>


created: 2001-08-21 22:30:15
subject: <b>Re: Water on sand.</b>
body:
I believe Min's viewing had more to do with Rand's turning on the fountains in Rhuidean than with the Seanchan.<br /><br />Vandevere<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-blue.gif" border="0" /> Vandevere <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-blue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /> If the human brain were so simple we could understand it, we would be so simple we couldn't understand it.</font><p><a href="http://www.fanfiction.net/u/436696/" target="_blank">Vandevere's Fanfiction</a></p><p></p>


created: 2002-01-29 02:11:24
subject: <b>Wait...</b>
body:
How does water on sand mean invading Seanchan?<br />I can't see any connection at all.<br /><br />You might as well have chosen &quot;the woman who is dead and gone&quot; vision, which also hasn't happened yet.


created: 2002-06-27 03:38:07
subject: <b>probably not</b>
body:
i think it refers more to the aeil waste and so on, all the water at rhuidean(sp?).<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> keeper of the truth <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> reader of all things bookish <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> is better than <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-green.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> keeper of the truth <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> reader of all things bookish <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br />to those gone, lest we forget.<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-31 08:06:50
subject: <b>Golden Bowl</b>
body:
The pouring water on sand has to do with the 'golden bowl.'  When Rand confronts Couladin and in the end brings forth a storm.  Then he skimms to Rhudien following Asmo, he doesn't make it rain in Rhudien, he pulls the water up from somewhere below.


created: 2002-10-30 17:42:28
subject: <b>Both are wrong</b>
body:
First off, there is no connection between water on sand and Seanchan.  You would have to be dense not to make the connection between the Waste and the water.  Not to offend....<br /><br />Secondly, I believe the Power will turn the wheel without people channeling it, in fact, im almost positive about that, can anyone back me up?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sewiouswy.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-25 18:36:31
subject: <b>Shara</b>
body:
I would rather tend to think that such a quote may indeed have something to do with Shara.  Remember, that the sea folk have a saying about the sharans and the ever-shifting sands.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">The Great Ipkar burns with hellfire and He shall smite all that are in His path and lay waste to the land and leave carnage in his wake.  Deal with the Ipkar and deal with Shai'tan.</font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-14 20:42:16
subject: <b>agreemant</b>
body:
I agree that the water on sand was the Lake at Ruidan(sp?) and I don't understand the sand connection... the only weather we have seen in Seanchen is snow... but maybe know that there is snow in Randland there is going to be a drought in Seanchen... but thats the only way I could see it working out....


created: 2004-11-28 12:58:19
subject: <b>water on sand</b>
body:
no offense intended here but i thought it was fairly obvious that rand pouring water on sand was his rainstorm at al'cair'dar (i think thats what golden bowl is in the old toungue anyway<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" />)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> let the speedbart ride again upon the winds of time <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Made the second post on the new WoTMB2 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-05-31 14:37:31
subject: <b>Well.</b>
body:
since nobody seems to use the Blackboards here often, I will!  It looks like after Winter's Heart that Mat will end up married to Tuon, the Daughter of the Nine Moons.  She will then become Empress of Seanchan, and Mat will be her uber-general.  Remember in The Path of Daggers when Rand was fighting the Seanchan?  During one of the bouts, a general named Miraj(????) was killed.  It's later mentioned, almost as a sidenote, that he was the best general the Seanchan had, the Lord Captain Commander of the Seanchan, for lack of a better term.  Mat is certainly the guy to fill his place.


created: 2001-06-17 02:30:28
subject: <b>Hmmmmm....</b>
body:
I really do use that title a lot.  Anyways....<br />RJ has already said that no big huge things are going to happen at the Seanchan homeland, so Rand's Traveling there with the horn is very unlikely<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ph34r!</font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-12 23:08:11
subject: <b>stuff about Mat</b>
body:
Does anyone remember when either Egwene had a dream, or Min had a Viewing, about Mat getting ravens on his shoulders? Settling into his skin, like? <br />He'll become something in Seanchan society cause that'st he mark of a Deathwatch guard, or something like that, and since Viewings and/or Dreams always appear to come out true in the end, something important'll have to happen in Seanchan for him to get those.<br /><br />I wish I could attend on of the online interviews with RJ, so I could learn some of the things that these people are throwing about, like the no more Seanchan stuff, and Asmodean never coming back.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Ninya Evoneigh<br />Aes Sedai Wanna-be <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> X)</font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-25 21:14:36
subject: <b>Hav you read the latest book or wot?</b>
body:
That was a nice wee bit of thought that I see here! However many of the answers to these questions have come in the latest book! Did you read it!?! Mat ends up meeting the daughter of the nine moons and carrying her away with him .<br />The Seanchan are not unbeatable as has been proved in &quot;The Crown of Swords &quot;, They have no knowledge of gateways and let people walk away who mearly promise to 'obey and wait for the return'.<br /> <br /> In answer to the theory that Arthur Hawkwing himself will come back after mat has Sounded the Horn once again, Well this is a bit unlikely ! Anyway I think it will be Berlain who make the Treaty with The Seanchan as she is a direct decendant from Arthur Hawkwing himself(so it is  claimed), But this will only happen after Rand defeats them in a huge battle..Hey , thats what we are waiting for!


created: 2001-12-04 08:06:15
subject: <b>Hmm</b>
body:
U are forgetting Nicoles prophecy.<br /><br />The Last Battle Done, but the world not done with battle. The Land divided by the return.<br /><br />Not exact quote, but the point stands. Maybe a ceasefire to after TG. But I don't see the Seanchan leaving or stopping wanting to take back all that Artur once ruled.


created: 2001-12-30 16:08:56
subject: <b>i wonder</b>
body:
would the seanchan listen to artur hawking?  if their commanders or the empress told them to, they would try to kill him as an &quot;imposter of a great man.&quot;  also, concerning the horn of valere... i wonder what effect its being blown would have on rand.  the last time, was before any trace of lews therin was in him.  now that lews therin sees all of these fellow heroes of the horn, who knows what will happen.<br /><br />sincerly,<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />the lover of light and wisdom<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" />the all-seeing eye<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />the wandering wotmaniac<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-07 01:00:02
subject: <b>the horn, huh??</b>
body:
i think the whole thing is a bit far fetched and i agree with the comment about ravens and mat from further up. also, of course,tuon will have to play a role in there somewhere too. i just think it would be real cool if<br />hawkwing was summoned by the horn( i love the horn of valere and if i were mat i'd be tootin' on the thing all day). hawkwing would slap these seanchan idiots up real quick and tell them to stop their damn whining and play nice with the other children!<br /><br />Mr_Molson XXX


created: 2001-11-11 17:26:36
subject: <b>yeah....</b>
body:
When i read that 'al meaning 'sone of', that was stil back when rand was discovering himslef, so i was looking for some guy named thor. i never thought of thor, the mythical legend. good theory. GJ's got to have infulences somewhere....


created: 2001-12-11 17:23:13
subject: <b>What choice do they have?!</b>
body:
The Seanchan will follow Rand because the only alternative is to follow the Dark One.  That does not seem plausable.  I suppose there is some entertainment in attempting to figure out the specifics of the &quot;why&quot;, for some.  I am more interested to see how he integrates the unique fighting strategies of the Seanchan into the armies he already controls.


created: 2005-05-16 15:52:56
subject: <b>The Hammer</b>
body:
The way Rand wield Hawkwing &quot;The Hammer of the Light&quot; is as the leader of the Heroes of the Horn, because at Falme Hawkwing says &quot;You are here. Have you the banner?...We have come to the Horn, but we must follow the banner. And the Dragon.&quot; The Seanchan will follow Rand, but because of Mat and Tuon.


created: 2002-01-24 19:42:08
subject: <b>A good idea....</b>
body:
I really like the idea!  It does make sense that Alanna was the only one in Rand's head at the time, and from the frame of mind (no pun intended) that LTT was in at the time, he may just see the OP (and thus channelers) as a solely destructive force.  It is akin to a Social Psychology concept of Diffusion of Responsibility....I really like your idea...and to those who would spite it, I haven't seen many others with plausable ideas (and I've read most of them on the t.p.).<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" />     Asha'Twan     <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br />To use no way as way, to have no limitations as limitiation.<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Lee Jun Fan<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-08 10:38:51
subject: <b>Small Flaw</b>
body:
Just a quick correction to Asha - whatevers post - Rand had already bonded his three girls by then (in Far Madding).  Of course, you might say that Rand thought that being bonded to them was a natural as breathing, whereas Alanna felt more and more the intruder...


created: 2002-04-26 14:59:53
subject: <b>nuh-uh</b>
body:
Well, so Alanna bonded Rand, so did Min, Elayne, and Aveindha. So by your logic, Lews should be complaining about 4 people. The third is definately someone else.<br />


created: 2002-08-12 21:31:47
subject: <b>i think</b>
body:
i think that the admins should keep their rude comments to themselves<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /> Friend of the Light<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" />Subject of Perrin Aybara<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" />Friend of Jaim Aybara<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" />Soldier for the Two Rivers army<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-04 21:15:00
subject: <b>I agree with had</b>
body:
That was a pretty lame response to the theory.  They should at least be polite, if they disagree with something.<br /><br />As to the theory, it's not bad at all.  I don't agree with it because of all the different people in Rand's head these days, though.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">The ever cynical...<br />Taurus</font><p></p>


created: 2003-03-11 14:28:59
subject: <b>???</b>
body:
Alanna = Destroyer? <br /><br />NO<br /><br />Alanna = Aes Sedai, who bonded Rand, who feels her, as any warder would feel the bond with Aes Sedai<br /><br /><br />Point Made<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">mystik_raider@hotmail.com<br /><br /><br />Thats my email and my MSN thing...</font><p></p>


created: 2001-05-31 08:42:49
subject: <b>Is Logain for the Light/Cadsuane's lesson</b>
body:
I tend to believe Logain's conversion to someone not so hard. I don't believe he was ever for the Shadow. He is very specific about noticing Rand up on the palace wall when he was being taken to Caemlyn in a cage, and how brightly Rand glowed to his eyes. Rand wasn't holding the Power, so this is more akin to Nicola's ability to see ta'veren, or perhaps just a personal epiphany to Logain that Rand was something larger than he. Whatever the case, Logain is convinced, and remember that his current driving motive is retribution against the Reds.<br /><br />It certainly appears that Logain is also not trusting of Taim, as shown by the formation of factions loyal to each within the BT. Since Rand can be fairly sure that Taim is an enemy by now, he can borrow from the arabic saying that &quot;The enemy of my enemy is my friend.&quot;, and consider Logain as a solid ally.<br /><br />Cadsuane's intended lesson is to remind Rand that he's human, and to bring him back to both laughter and tears. It's not that Rand is beginning to believe himself deific, but that he has mistakenly decided that in order to survive the destruction caused by and around him, he needs to insulate himself from human emotions. Cadsuane talking with Sorilea says that he needs to be strong, and instead he's making himself hard. The fear is that someone with a totally hard heart winning Tarmon Gai'don might be worse for mankind than to lose.<br /><br />Whether that lesson is the one Min's viewing says Cadsuane will give to ALL the Asha'man, isn't certain. What people intend, and what happens, are rarely the same, even sometimes for Cadsuane.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> Call_me_Tim <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> Call me Tim <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-02 08:03:20
subject: <b>sorry</b>
body:
It doesn't hold up.  if she wants to take away his ability to channel then she could have left him in Far Madding under guard.  You can't touch the source there and even a blademaster can't fight off 25 guards at once.  Also remember she talks to soreilla(sp) so we know what she wants to teach Rand. &quot;How to laugh and cry again&quot;.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Zeddicus<br />zedd@wotmania.com<br />&quot;Life is a dream.  All dreams must end.&quot;<br />&quot;The last embrace of the mother welcome you home.&quot;<br /><br />If you must mount the gallows, give a jest to the crowd, a coin to the hangman, and make the drop with a smile</font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-03 02:31:44
subject: <b>Light! How would she possibly do that?</b>
body:
There are over 400 some men that can channel in the BT.  When Elaida sent out some 60(or was it 50) sisters to 'gentle' them all, at least one group was caught without any casualties.  How would Cadsuane who has currently refuses to align herself with either faction of the tower possibly sever that many men?  Even if the BT crumbles before this happens(Taim/Logain conflict) you can assume that the larger/more powerful force will win.  So now you have at the least 150 Asha'man.  Since men are usually more powerful than women it will take at least 1 sister for every soldier, 2 for every dedicated and 4 for every Asha'man.  That adds up to too many sisters for such a small group as Cadsuane Sedai's to take by force.  <br />   Now if you think that the men will willingly allow themselves to be 'gentled' then I can't argue that further thatn to say you are crazy!!!


created: 2002-12-26 02:05:17
subject: <b>Not gonna happen</b>
body:
There's one major thing preventing Cadsuane using this as a lesson: if you were a &quot;demigod&quot; and someone took your powers from you to teach you a lesson and then you got your powers back from another source (no pun intended) what would your first action be? I know I'd go after the person who took away my powers in the first place. Plus we have Cadsuane's conversation with Sorilea where they agree to teach Rand to laugh and to cry again.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> Member of the Crimson Corps <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Loyal to the Dragon Reborn <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Death rides on my shoulder, death walks in my footsteps; I am death...</font><p></p>


created: 2001-03-23 00:00:00
subject: <b>No way José!</b>
body:
Alright, I think you are forgetting something.  RJ said that we should have been able to figure out who killed Asmodean the moment we read the passage.  And if that wasn't enough, by the end of Lord of Chaos we should DEFINITELY be able to do so.  And since the last time we saw Slayer was near the end of TSR riding on his horse as Luc out of Emond's Field with an arrow through his chest.  Tell me how his fleeing with an arrow in his chest makes it obvious he's the killer a whole book later.  Also, about this stepping out of the dream thing.  I got the impression that he just kind of appears out of thin air(Hence the chapter name) and does not open a portal.  So he could only really take with him to TAR what he was carrying(Like the crossbow bolt he stole from the tower after killing the greyman).  Finally, I really don't think that all of the forsaken knew of Slayer, especially Asmodean.  Lanfear said that he had just been hiding in some safe little spot not doing anything until she drug him out of there so she could use him to teach Rand.  Now, if Asmodean hasn't been doing anything, what chance is there that he met Slayer?  Also, we don't find out that the forsaken know of Slayer until WH.  The only person we knew that was evil that knew of him was Fain.  So how does that qualify as being obvious by the end of Lord of Chaos?  It doesn't!  All this stuff was thrown in there to explain how other people had died(like the greyman and the two black ajah), not how Asmodean died.  I doubt RJ would hold such crucial evidence secret until now.  That's ridiculous.  Especially since Slayer is not even mentioned in Lord of Chaos, how could there be any more evidence to support his being the killer?  No, Slayer did not do it.  I will not go into who did do it or wy it is obvious, the theory post holds more than enough evidence for that.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Vercingetorix<br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/803.gif" /><br />Theory Post Admin<br /><br />I went to the doctor the other day and all he did was drain some blood from my neck.  Don't ever go to Doctor Acula.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-04-02 00:00:00
subject: <b>Graendal killed Asmodean</b>
body:
Graendal killed Asmodean. The evidence is in the theory below.<p>Graendal <br />Submitted by Raolin Darksbane </p><p>"The chill that Asmodean felt was probably saidar. He recognized his killer - so it was probably a Forsaken. Lanfear is presumably dead - she later reappears as Cyndane. Moghedien is a prisoner. That leaves Graendal, Semirhage, and Mesaana. Graendal had been present in Caemlyn before and was party to the four Forsaken plot against Rand. She later speaks as if she is pretty sure that Asmodean is dead when others are unsure. IIRC, she talks about being named Nae&rsquo;blis after Asmo&rsquo;s death. Why? What has she done to merit it? Kill Asmodean. Also, she later loots Sammael&rsquo;s palace after his death - the comparison to looting Rahvin&rsquo;s palace is striking. I would definitely accuse Graendal."<br /></p>


created: 2001-04-03 00:00:00
subject: <b>Graendal???</b>
body:
I personnally think that there are a few things that doesn't add up with the theory that Graendal did it.<p>First, about the chill. The way it was described, a forsaken can make the difference between a normal chill and Saidar-induced chill. I don't have the book at hand so bare with me for a moment. At a point, a Forsaken (Demandred???) held a meeting and there was a quote that went along those lines:<br />"He felt the goose-bumps all over him, so he knew that {insert the name of the female Forsaken here} was arriving through a portal EVEN BEFORE IT WAS VISIBLE."</p><p>Maybe he knew since he was expecting it, but I don't think he would have confounded the 2 chills even if he wasn't expecting visits.</p><p>Second: If it was Graendal, she channeled her way in (since she wasn't in T'A'R in the flesh, it would have been stoopid from her) and with the amount of Channeling women around, that much Saider channeled wouldn't have gone unnoticed (remember, modern A.S. didn't know how to travel yet)</p><p>Third: How Asmo was killed? Again, Saidar must have been used since Asmo died the final Death, so that leaves Balefire. Wrong again, as that much Saidar (remember that Moraine was one of the strongest A.S at the time and she barely could channel a thread thin bar...) wouldn't have gone unnoticed either. "[...] A beacon for channeling women miles around [...]" as Mog. put it once.</p><p>Inverted weaving? That fails to answer the obviousness of R.J. since we never heard about it at that time.</p><p>I admit that my theory may not be perfect, but Graendal's also have some big flaws to deal with...</p><p><img src="images/devil.gif" /> Catch you all later <img src="images/aessedai.gif" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /> He Who Comes With The Oosquai <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> Crazy Frenchman Extraordinaire <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /> Unbonded Blademaster of the Spoon <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-blue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> Proud poster of the &quot;Slayer Killed Asmo&quot; theory <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /></font></p><p></p>


created: 2001-04-05 00:00:00
subject: <b>Response to Graendal???</b>
body:
The chill that Asmodean felt may not have been from Saidar.  That is just speculation.  The biggest unknown here is the distance.  We have no idea how far away the wine closet was from where everyone else was.  We also don't know how far Asmodean was from the closet when he felt the chill.  A small weave would not be felt from very far away, and since we don't know the distance we cannot say for certain saidar would have been felt.  Also, as far as I know Aviendha was the only channeling woman around, so it is distinctly possible she might have been far away enough not to notice it.  And what's to say Graendal wasn't in the flesh?  Maybe she was.  I am not sure.  Either way she would have had to channel some sort of gateway to leave TAR or to get there unless she was hiding in the closet for a while.  The biggest argument for Graendal though is there is no evidence against her.  yes, not all of the evidence is rock solid and some of it can be argued as not true, but there is NOTHING that says Graendal didn't do it.  My main point was that Slayer couldn't ahve done it.  While I agree that Graendal did it I wasn't here to argue that as everything has pretty much been said in the theory post about Graendal anyway.  By the way, does anyone have any response yet to my slayer comments from before?  I'm waiting...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Vercingetorix<br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/803.gif" /><br />Theory Post Admin<br /><br />I went to the doctor the other day and all he did was drain some blood from my neck.  Don't ever go to Doctor Acula.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-04-05 00:00:00
subject: <b>100%</b>
body:
Finally!!! I've been a huge believer in this theory for a really long time. It's about time someone put it together choc-full of sensical explainations and more proof thatn 181 rum...well done!!


created: 2001-04-06 00:00:00
subject: <b>Short break</b>
body:
I can't really argue anymore... for now! My last reading dates from a while ago and I don't have the books near at hand (damn my brother who lives 400 miles away...) <img src="images/darkone.gif" /><p>But I don't take that Graendal did it for granted. </p><p>YOU'LL BE HEARING FROM ME SOON! MWAHAHAHAHAH...</p><p>err... I mean:</p><p><img src="images/devil.gif" /> Catch ya all later <img src="images/aessedai.gif" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /> He Who Comes With The Oosquai <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> Crazy Frenchman Extraordinaire <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /> Unbonded Blademaster of the Spoon <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-blue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> Proud poster of the &quot;Slayer Killed Asmo&quot; theory <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /></font></p><p></p>


created: 2001-04-11 00:00:00
subject: <b>Actually Vercingetorix, I do . . .</b>
body:
Cutting down a four page 'essay' of why it was Slayer (My own) into a couple of paragraphs should be 'fun', but I'll give it a go . . .<p>We knew Slayer could step into and out of TAR from TSR. We also knew he was the DO's best assasin, he was sent to kill Fain instead of sending a normal Myrddraal. Therefore, he is as obvious as Graendal. The main reason I dispute Graendal is that before LOC there is no evidence to put her higher than Sammael. If you know of something in the first five books that puts Graendal higher on the list than Sammael, please tell me, but I have never managed to find anything.</p><p>WH also proves that Slayer can take things with him (the candle and poisoned daggers), and being an assasin this isn't that big a leap to make anyway. At the very least he must be able to take clothes (the fast get-a-way after Perrin shot him in TAR) and a dagger for the assasinations.</p><p>And Balefire and Traveling are not small weaves, they take a strong channeler and so can be felt from quite a distance away. The gateway is proved by Rand sensing the renegade Asha'man leaving in POD and Balefire was proved earlier by al_Telchar.</p><p>But if anyone is interested in my full reasons or quotes on why it was Slayer and NOT Graendal then I'll post them here as a theory. The older posts on the forum I visit have disappeared. <img src="images/frown.gif" /></p>


created: 2001-04-11 00:00:00
subject: <b>Nevman...</b>
body:
The problem though si that Slayer ran off with an arrow in him.  That was the LAST we saw of him UNTIL Winter's Heart.  Seeing as how he was absent for 1200 pages before Asmodean's death, and 2000 afterwards kind of makes me think he isn't too obvious.  And there are things that make Graendal more likely than Sammael.  Here are those things:<p>First off, Sammael has been wiating in Illian all this time in case Rand shows up so he can lay an ambush.  As soon as he gets there Sammael lets Graendal and Rahvin know(and lanfear though she's toast) and they come in and attack Rand.  That was their plan.</p><p>Secondly, Sammael goes off when he is COMPLETEY out of control about how he is going to kill Asmodean next time he sees him, completely full of rage and not in control of himself.  This is in LOC.  </p><p>Thirdly, Graendal tries to convince everyone that Asmodean is dead, and thinks to herself that she is suprised to hear something in her voice, can't remember what that was though.</p><p>Fourthly, Graendal doesn't recognize Shaidar Harian when he comes to her in POD.  Earlier she thought to herself how she alone knew she had made her own secret trip to Shayol Ghul and been all but promised to be Naeblis.  now she had to go before LOC because SH was there in the very beginning, which took place the day after Asmodean's death.  So logically she went before the day after Asmodean's death.  And since she doesn't have anything going for her in FOH to get her to almost be promised Naeblis she obviously did something to get that.  I think killing one of the DO most powerful servants who was a traitor(granted he's one of the weak forsaken but he's still a forsaken) would warrant that.  nothing else would.</p><p>So since Slayer was last seen with an arrow through his chest fleeing and there are all sorts of things to make Graendal the killer, I think she is more likely the killer.</p><p>Now, about Slayer carrying stuff.  Sure he can probably carry small items like that.  but could he carry a dead body?  I highly doubt it.  And could he kill Asmodean with the speed of what might be balefire?  Not a chance.  And there's also the problem that Asmodean did not meet Slayer before.  RJ said this at the dutch fantasy fair thing.  here is the question and answer:</p><p>Q (by Emma): Did Slayer meet Asmodean before he was killed? No.. am, no. Not in the books</p><p>And given with the information in the books this is how it plays out.  All of the forsaken know of the evil that is Slayer, meaning how his evil is old and stuff like that(what birgitte told Perrin).  As of the end of WH Slayer has met all of the forsaken.  Now this means all fo the current forsaken.  He didn't meet Asmodean before he got whacked.</p><p>Another thing, I don't think that the DO really considers Fain that big of a deal.  He's more of a minor annoyance.  Sure he's dangerous and a traitor, but it's not like he's that awful, especially by TSR.  Sure he gets worse and worse later on but he's still not someone for the DO to really pay attention to at that point.  I think i covered all of your points.  Care to respond?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Vercingetorix<br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/803.gif" /><br />Theory Post Admin<br /><br />I went to the doctor the other day and all he did was drain some blood from my neck.  Don't ever go to Doctor Acula.</font></p><p></p>


created: 2001-04-12 00:00:00
subject: <b>Sure, it's always good to hear someone else's opinion <img src="images/smile.gif" /></b>
body:
So you're saying that no matter what you use, you can't kill someone faster than with Balefire? It is possible to kill someone quickly with a knife if you know where to stab them. <p>Rand's sword was detected by Sammael in ACOS, and that uses a small amount of OP. Balefire on the other hand uses a lot, Aviendha(sp?) would surely have sensed it and/or any gateways.</p><p>And those two question on the transcript, I just want to point out the wording of the question (well, the first one at least, the second is slightly mangled <img src="images/wink.gif" />):</p><p>"Did Slayer meet Asmodean BEFORE he was killed?"</p><p>emphaisis mine, but this just shows that Slayer and Asmodean hadn't met BEFORE then. If the 'before' hadn't been put in the question it would almost definatly have been RAFO'd as it would either cross out a suspect or prove a murderer.</p><p>It's the second one that is important though, at least the answer is as Aan'Allein/Sander mistyped the question:</p><p>Q: Have ALL the Forsaken of Slayer? <br />A: Yes, they've heard of him. Slayer is not old in the way they are. Slayer does not come the Age of Legends, Slayer is something much newer. </p><p>again emphaisis mine (can we use bold and italics here?) but the question was about all the Forsaken, and they'd all heard of him, not the evil that is him, which is in fact not that old, no way near as old as themselves. And being an assasin for the DO, it shouldn't have been that big a leap to presume that the Forsaken would have found out about one of the tools at their disposal.</p><p>And Fain is a big deal to the DO. He is a 'renegade' and the Dark side doesn't accept failure. The Do spend a lot of energy in creating Fain, distilling his soul twice I think so that he could sense the Dragon Reborn.</p><p>Why does Slayer have to appear in later books to make it 'obvious'? It isn't obvious, the reason we're arguing now. But RJ could have simply been removing suspects in the later books until WH.</p><p>Moghedien knew Rand was attacking Rahvin, your saying Graendal knew as well. If Graendal knew, Rahvin must have known and called her in t help. If he called in Graendal, he would have also called in the last surviving member of the plot, Sammael. The plan was to attack Rand from behind with a link. It would have worked just as well as Rahvin's as it would have at Sammael's. It never happened though. As for the LOC and later events, how can they help make Sammael look less obvious when Asmodean died?</p><p>Graendal also was certain Lanfear was dead and certain Moghedien was dead. Lanfear was only missing though and Moghedien captured. So if she was wrong about them, why does she have to be right about Asmodean? Sure, she was right. But it still wasn't more than an opinion in the end because of the other two.</p><p>To sum up a very incoherent response<br />1)Sammael would have been there if Graendal was, so not obvious.<br />2)quotes from LOC and later don't make Sammael sound less obvious at the moment of Asmodean's death.<br />3)Graendal was also sure about Lanfear and Moghedien, but was wrong on at least one with no way of knwoing on the second.<br />4)Slayer doesn't have to appear if the others are being put down.<br />5)ALL the Forsaken had heard of Slayer.<br />6)Slayer hadn't met Asmodean BEFORE Asmodean died.<br />7)Fain was important - alot of time and energy had been invested into him and failure/renegades normally = death.<br /><img src="images/cool.gif" />Daggers with poison can kill as quickly as Balefire if used by an expert.</p><p>I think I covered all _your_ points, your turn. <img src="images/wink.gif" /></p>


created: 2001-04-12 00:00:00
subject: <b>Alright, challenge accepted.</b>
body:
>So you're saying that no matter what you use, you can't kill someone faster than with Balefire? It is possible to kill someone quickly with a knife if you know where to stab them. <p>This is what I am saying.  The way Asmodean's death was described was exactly like Belal's death.  now, I am not SAYING that Asmodean was balefired because I don't think it matters.  but I doubt even Slayer could kill someone fast enough so that his voicer rang in the air as deatht ok him or whatever he said.</p><p>>Rand's sword was detected by Sammael in ACOS, and that uses a small amount of OP. Balefire on the other hand uses a lot, Aviendha(sp?) would surely have sensed it and/or any gateways.</p><p>Aviendha is still being trained in the power.  Plus we have no idea as to what the distance was between them.  plus, Sammael was looking for Rand channeling.  Aviendha wasn't looking for anyone channeling.</p><p>>And those two question on the transcript, I just want to point out the wording of the question (well, the first one at least, the second is slightly mangled ):</p><p>"Did Slayer meet Asmodean BEFORE he was killed?"</p><p>>emphaisis mine, but this just shows that Slayer and Asmodean hadn't met BEFORE then. If the 'before' hadn't been put in the question it would almost definatly have been RAFO'd as it would either cross out a suspect or prove a murderer.</p><p>But if Asmodean meets Slayer for the first time as he is being killed why did he say "You, no!"  If he had never met the guy he wouldn't have had the blood drain from his face and make him shout that.</p><p>>It's the second one that is important though, at least the answer is as Aan'Allein/Sander mistyped the question:</p><p>>Q: Have ALL the Forsaken of Slayer? <br />A: Yes, they've heard of him. Slayer is not old in the way they are. Slayer does not come the Age of Legends, Slayer is something much newer. </p><p>>again emphaisis mine (can we use bold and italics here?) but the question was about all the Forsaken, and they'd all heard of him, not the evil that is him, which is in fact not that old, no way near as old as themselves. And being an assasin for the DO, it shouldn't have been that big a leap to presume that the Forsaken would have found out about one of the tools at their disposal.</p><p>But just because they heard of him doers not mean they've met him or know what he looks like.  Again, there are a lot of assumptions going on around here.</p><p>>And Fain is a big deal to the DO. He is a 'renegade' and the Dark side doesn't accept failure. The Do spend a lot of energy in creating Fain, distilling his soul twice I think so that he could sense the Dragon Reborn.</p><p>Hmmm, yes, I can see that I suppose.  I will give you this point.</p><p>>Why does Slayer have to appear in later books to make it 'obvious'? It isn't obvious, the reason we're arguing now. But RJ could have simply been removing suspects in the later books until WH.</p><p>Look, RJ said it should be obvious the moment we read it.  Slayer was not in the last 1200 pages and he had just run with an arrow through his chest.  All of the other viable suspects, Sammael, Graendal, Semirhage, and Mesaana were all in that book.  no wait, I don't think Semirhage OR Mesaana were even seen in it, at least not to any great detail at all.  But Graendal Sammael Lanfear and Rahvin all were, with lots of information about them in that book.  that makes them the best suspects.  Plus RJ said after POD that if we couldn't figure it out after FOH, we should CERTAINLY be able to figure it out by now.  There is STILL no mention of Slayer at all.  As far as we know he's still got an arrow through his chest somewhere in the two rivers.</p><p>>Moghedien knew Rand was attacking Rahvin, your saying Graendal knew as well. If Graendal knew, Rahvin must have known and called her in t help. If he called in Graendal, he would have also called in the last surviving member of the plot, Sammael. The plan was to attack Rand from behind with a link. It would have worked just as well as Rahvin's as it would have at Sammael's. It never happened though. As for the LOC and later events, how can they help make Sammael look less obvious when Asmodean died?</p><p>What I am saying is Graendal and Rahvin were waiting in Caemlyn for Sammael's signal.  So she was already there.  rahvin was COMPLETELY not expecting Rand to attack, so he would not have had time to send a message to Sammael.  Sammael however has been expecting Rand for the last few weeks, ready to send for help at a moments notice.  The events in LOC show that Graendal made the trip to SG, which you haven't addrressed yet.  You might want to address that point, yes?  Secondly, Sammael in his rage said when he found Asmodean he would kill him, meaning he thought he was still alive.</p><p>>Graendal also was certain Lanfear was dead and certain Moghedien was dead. Lanfear was only missing though and Moghedien captured. So if she was wrong about them, why does she have to be right about Asmodean? Sure, she was right. But it still wasn't more than an opinion in the end because of the other two.</p><p>Well, we still don't know if Lanfear died or not.  Everyone THOUGHT she was dead.  She surely heard about the great battle at the docks and deduced she was dead.  Also, didn't Graendal only say that MAYBE moggy was dead?  She saw Nynaeve feed her something and then she disappeared.  Who knows what's become of her now.</p><p>>To sum up a very incoherent response<br />1)Sammael would have been there if Graendal was, so not obvious.</p><p>Not if Graendal was already there.</p><p>>2)quotes from LOC and later don't make Sammael sound less obvious at the moment of Asmodean's death.</p><p>Maybe not, but they make Graendal more likely in my opinion.</p><p>>3)Graendal was also sure about Lanfear and Moghedien, but was wrong on at least one with no way of knwoing on the second.</p><p>She said maybe(at least I think she did)</p><p>>4)Slayer doesn't have to appear if the others are being put down.</p><p>Yeah he does.  I hadn't thought about Slayer since TSR until Wh came out.  he was an unimportyant character as far as I knew.</p><p>>5)ALL the Forsaken had heard of Slayer.</p><p>Heard, not met.  And whose to say which kind of all he meant?All as in all of all as in all currently alive.</p><p>>6)Slayer hadn't met Asmodean BEFORE Asmodean died.</p><p>Then he wouldn't recognize him.</p><p>>7)Fain was important - alot of time and energy had been invested into him and failure/renegades normally = death.<br />Daggers with poison can kill as quickly as Balefire if used by an expert.</p><p>Okay</p><p>>I think I covered all _your_ points, your turn.</p><p>Address the Shayul Ghul comment by Graendal, plus these ones...  </p><p><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Vercingetorix<br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/803.gif" /><br />Theory Post Admin<br /><br />I went to the doctor the other day and all he did was drain some blood from my neck.  Don't ever go to Doctor Acula.</font></p><p></p>


created: 2001-04-14 00:00:00
subject:
<b>Challenge?! I didn&rsquo;t even get a chance to do the gauntlet thing <img src="images/wink.gif" /></b>

body:
But if you don&rsquo;t think Asmodean was Balefired, doesn&rsquo;t it destroy the point of the argument? Anything could have killed him then as long as it was quick. But anyway . . .<br />You don&rsquo;t think a dagger could kill instantaneously? OK then, I can&rsquo;t see any way to convince you of that (I just believe it can) but with no body or blood found, Slayer could have taken him into TAR as he stabbed him. This would cut off any extra sound and kill him, so giving the effect of instantaneous death, words hanging in the air. Is this any easier to believe?<p>Distance, um, I&rsquo;m most used to arguing this point from the point of view of someone that believed that Graendal stayed close to the fountain, gating out in front of Asmodean. But anyway. Asmodean &ldquo;drifted away from Mat and Aviendha&rdquo;, so walking slowly. We are hearing his thoughts as he walks, and they aren&rsquo;t that long or many, so I think he didn&rsquo;t walk far. He was looking for the pantry, but hadn&rsquo;t found it. So nothing can really be gained from that. I suppose in the end though not much is really said on how far he goes. </p><p>But you do have to wonder why he didn&rsquo;t try to defend himself. He may have been too weak to challenge Rand, but he survived an attack by trollocs. I therefore suggest that the reason is he was afraid Rand would sense it, an ingrained fear so instinct didn&rsquo;t overcome it. If he was afraid to channel, then they must have been fairly close to Rand or his quarters. And Rand is looking down at Mat and Aviendha though a window, so she must have been as close unless Asmodean went upstairs to find a pantry. Now Aviendha is strong in the OP, one of the strongest four in the White Tower (I know she isn&rsquo;t part of the WT <img src="images/smile.gif" />) and strength plays a big part in how far someone can sense the use of the OP. She is also a quick study, which also has a strong correlation with Strength. Therefore, with Rand being able to sense as far as he can, and afraid that the Asha&rsquo;man might sense him if he was much closer to them in WH when he visits Cairhien (he was about half the city away I think, and a palace is a lot smaller than a city) then it shouldn&rsquo;t be too unreasonable to presume that they would have sensed the large amounts being channeled even if they weren&rsquo;t &lsquo;looking&rsquo; for it.</p><p>But in the prologue of TGH, Ishamael (At least I'm pretty sure it was him) showed all the Darkfriends an image of Rand, Perrin and Mat. So the Forsaken might . . . no, you'll probably disagree with that one. But how many people do you know that can step out of thin air without channeling? It wouldn't have taken a genius to work out who it was, especially if he was brandishing a dagger or two at the same time.</p><p>As for obvious, at the time of publishing RJ said that the majority of letters he got were wrong. We're still arguing four books later, so it can't be _that_ obvious. But as an argument - why would Graendal be there? They had been taunting him on Sammael's behalf for ages, before he even got out of the waste. Do you really believe that Graendal would have spent that much time waiting round with Rahvin? It must have been weeks between the first attack and the time Rand attacked Rahvin, and there is no way that Graendal was with Rahvin the whole time. For a start they don't trust each other enough, plus Graendal loves her 'servants' too much to be away from them that long.</p><p>And did anything happen in POD to help with this? I can&rsquo;t remember it if it did. Everything you&rsquo;ve said so far happened in LOC and can be used just as easily to show that Sammael didn&rsquo;t do it and Graendal didn&rsquo;t know what she was talking about as it can to promote Graendal.</p><p>And I fail to see the significance of Graendal going to SL a couple of times before Demandred told them of the DO's plans. The DO wasn't there each time as far as I recall, so she couldn't have found out about Asmodean that way, if that is what you're getting at. But she must have eyes and ears with Rand if she knew about Lanfear&rsquo;s disappearance, and so she would also know about Asmodean's disappearance. She then presumed that they were both dead. And Sammael&rsquo;s rage is all very well, but this is still LOC. It doesn&rsquo;t help separate the two during TFOH.</p><p>You're right about Moghedien though, at least the first time. But she also said it again to Sammael when he said he had been named Nae'blis, and said it with even more conviction.<br />LOC, chapter 23, &ldquo;To Understand A Message&rdquo;. p499.<br />&ldquo;Asmodean and Lanfear are dead, and I am sure Moghedien must be too.&rdquo;<br />That is the one I base my claim on, she is not in control of the conversation like last time.</p><p>My main argument against Graendal though is that she isn&rsquo;t obvious (rather like your one against Slayer) because at the end of TFOH Sammael is just as likely to have been there and done it as Graendal. Two channelers, both have someone who could sense them and they can&rsquo;t be told apart without something from a later book. If you could convince me that Sammael definitely couldn&rsquo;t have been there then you&rsquo;ll have me almost convinced it was Graendal. But as I see it, if Graendal was there, so was Sammael. And if he was there, there is no way to say which one did it, which equals not obvious.</p><p>If RJ thought it was obvious, as he does, he could have been providing clues by crossing off suspects. He didn&rsquo;t want to paint a big sign saying &lsquo;This person did it&rsquo;, so he could have. At this point though, 8 years or so after it happened, he could have decided it was about time he gave a bigger hint.<br />And as for the arrow wound, what about the Black Ajah? Or, Asmodean is a very important target, the DO might have ordered Slayer to do it anyway, he could have just had a bandage around his chest at the time.<br />But if I can use his appearance in WH (Yes, not obvious, but the truth non the less, so does show that it probably happened, making it look more likely, if not more obvious) Slayer wasn&rsquo;t wounded then, so probably _was_ healed.</p><p>If you want to get into a debate about what &lsquo;all&rsquo; RJ meant, we might as well debate RJ&rsquo;s definition of &lsquo;obvious&rsquo;. Does he mean obvious to everyone, obvious to people with an IQ of 170, obvious to people who can read minds or just obvious to people who already know how the series is going to end?! Or we could do the same for any number of things. Aan&rsquo;allein believed that RJ meant Asmodean had heard of Slayer. He was there, he heard the tone and expression RJ put into those words. We weren&rsquo;t. I&rsquo;m pretty sure Aan&rsquo;allein thinks Graendal did it, so he wouldn&rsquo;t have been biased.</p><p>I think that that covers everything you brought up, your turn again! <img src="images/biggrin.gif" /></p><p>Lol, these responses are getting longer and longer!</p>


created: 2001-04-15 00:00:00
subject: <b>Evidence against Slayer</b>
body:
The Great Lord of the Dark is unable to reincarnate Asmodean. The only reason I know that this could be possible is if Asmodean had been balefired. I don&rsquo;t think that Slayer has the ability to wield balefire. Therefore SLAYER DID NOT KILL ASMODEAN.<p>If you&rsquo;re still wondering, GRAENAL KILLED ASMODEAN.</p><p>Sorry, I didn&rsquo;t mean to shout.<br /></p>


created: 2001-04-15 00:00:00
subject: <b>Evidence against evidence <img src="images/biggrin.gif" /></b>
body:
Ah, sorry Bors, but that is an easy one to counter. If you re-read the paragraph in question:<p>LOC, Prologue: The First Message, p5.<br />&ldquo;THE CHOSEN DWINDLE, DEMANDRED. THE WEAK FALL AWAY. WHO BETRAYS ME SHALL DIE THE FINAL DEATH. ASMODEAN, TWISTED BY HIS WEAKNESS. RAHVIN DEAD IN HIS PRIDE. HE SERVED WELL, YET EVEN I CANNOT STEP SAVE HIM FROM BALEFIRE. EVEN I CANNOT STEP OUTSIDE OF TIME. For an instant terrible anger filled that awful voice, and &ndash; could it be frustration?&rdquo;</p><p>The DO is talking about Rahvin, and only Rahvin, when speaking about Balefire. Balefire doesn&rsquo;t destroy a soul, the soul can and will be reborn again. It just can&rsquo;t be touched by the DO. Asmodean isn&rsquo;t coming back because the DO won&rsquo;t bring him back, not because he can&rsquo;t. He turned renegade, just like Fain, and for that he was killed.</p><p>A similarity springs to mind when thinking of this which I didn&rsquo;t notice earlier (thanks Bors! <img src="images/biggrin.gif" />), Slayer was sent to kill Fain because he was a renegade, Asmodean is also a renegade . . . Plus, when thinking about WH, Slayer was also sent to kill the two captured Black Ajah, who were turning renegade, and the Grey Man. Basically everyone that gets captured and/or turns renegade seems to get &lsquo;visited&rsquo; by Slayer. <img src="images/smile.gif" /></p>


created: 2001-04-15 00:00:00
subject: <b>Graendal in the Pantry with the Balefire</b>
body:
If the Great Lord could reincarnate Asmodean, he would. He could have him controlled to serve the Great Lord with a mind trap. The fact is that the Great Lord can&rsquo;t bring him back, not that he won&rsquo;t. It&rsquo;s ridiculous to think that the Great Lord wouldn&rsquo;t use all of his resources. He has so far. He has reincarnated whom he can and has had captured Chosen freed. <p>After the conversation that you quoted between Demandred and the Great Lord, Demandred comments on the extent of the Great Lord&rsquo;s knowledge concerning the death of Rhavin and Asmodean, and he is surprised to know how well informed the Great Lord is. The reason for this is explained on page 183 of the LOC. Graendal mentions having already visiting the Great Lord, &ldquo;Only she herself knew that she made her own journey to Shayol Ghul and down to the lake of fire. . . she would sow chaos till the harvest made Demandred&rsquo;s lungs explode.&rdquo; The Great Lord knew that both Rhavin and Asmodean were dead because Graendal told him (By the way, she knew that Asmodean was dead because she killed him). </p><p>As far a Slayer is concerned, his murders are marker by violent massacres, not by missing people. Also, not all incompetents are killed by Slayer, especially not Chosen. Both Lanfear/Cyndane and Moghedien come to mind, Moghedien and probably Lanfear/Cyndane were freed from their captivity, not killed by Slayer. Can you indicate another Chosen that Slayer has killed?<br /></p>


created: 2001-04-17 00:00:00
subject: <b>Slayer, just outside the Pantry, with the Daggers <img src="images/tongue.gif" /></b>
body:
I disagree with that. Although I must admit that Slayer going after all the renegades is pretty shaky when thinking about Moghedien. But Lanfear had it spread around that Asmodean turn to the light of his own accord. The DO probably knows that his link to Asmodean had been severed. Without Lanfear&rsquo;s knowledge of what really happened, the DO would most likely think that Asmodean turned to the light, this is a _very_ grave offence in the DO&rsquo;s eyes, punishable by death. <p>And the mind traps didn&rsquo;t appear until ACOS. Moghedien wasn&rsquo;t released until the very end of LOC. How can you say for sure that the mind traps were even around until the end of LOC? Moridin certainly wasn&rsquo;t until half way through LOC and wasn&rsquo;t known to us properly until ACOS.</p><p>And that quote you were referring to:</p><p>LOC, Prologue, p5.<br />&ldquo;Another point pricked him. The Great Lord already knew how Rahvin had died. And seemed to know more of Asmodean than he.&rdquo;</p><p>Where does it imply that the DO knows how Asmodean died? Surely if he did, Demandred would have thought &lsquo;The Great Lord already knew how Rahvin _and Asmodean_ had died&rsquo;. The DO only seems to know more about what happened to Asmodean, not how he died.</p><p>As for Lanfear and Moghedien, we don&rsquo;t know what happened to Lanfear. She might have died or been rescued. Either way, there was no order about not killing Rand when she tried. And Moghedien, she might just have had the _fortune_ to have been in captivity while a mind trap was found. Plus she didn&rsquo;t exactly go along with it willingly like Asmodean, she had an a&rsquo;dam around her neck the while time.</p><p>The DO obviously can&rsquo;t bring back people that have been dead for a while. With no mind traps to be found at the time, Asmodean was killed. Now it&rsquo;s just too late. As RJ said, he&rsquo;s &ldquo;road kill&rdquo;, &ldquo;a cat that tried to cross the tracks and didn't quite make it.&rdquo;. The DO just doesn&rsquo;t like traitors! <img src="images/biggrin.gif" /></p>


created: 2001-04-17 00:00:00
subject: <b>Gauntlets are fun!</b>
body:
>But if you don&rsquo;t think Asmodean was Balefired, doesn&rsquo;t it destroy the point of the argument? Anything could have killed him then as long as it was quick. But anyway . . .<br />You don&rsquo;t think a dagger could kill instantaneously? OK then, I can&rsquo;t see any way to convince you of that (I just believe it can) but with no body or blood found, Slayer could have taken him into TAR as he stabbed him. This would cut off any extra sound and kill him, so giving the effect of instantaneous death, words hanging in the air. Is this any easier to believe?<p>I just am not sure if he was balefired.  Perhaps he was.  but I don't think Slayer could pull him into TAR.  I always inagined as he just kind fo steps in and out of TAR, you know, "out of thin air," and that he doesn't open a portal or anything.  If that were the case I really don't think he could snatch anyone and physically haul them off into TAR.  Even if the person was dead.  At least that's how I always viewed it.  We don't really know, so it's really hard to debate it.</p><p>>Distance, um, I&rsquo;m most used to arguing this point from the point of view of someone that believed that Graendal stayed close to the fountain, gating out in front of Asmodean. But anyway. Asmodean &ldquo;drifted away from Mat and Aviendha&rdquo;, so walking slowly. We are hearing his thoughts as he walks, and they aren&rsquo;t that long or many, so I think he didn&rsquo;t walk far. He was looking for the pantry, but hadn&rsquo;t found it. So nothing can really be gained from that. I suppose in the end though not much is really said on how far he goes.</p><p>True. </p><p>>But you do have to wonder why he didn&rsquo;t try to defend himself. He may have been too weak to challenge Rand, but he survived an attack by trollocs. I therefore suggest that the reason is he was afraid Rand would sense it, an ingrained fear so instinct didn&rsquo;t overcome it. If he was afraid to channel, then they must have been fairly close to Rand or his quarters. And Rand is looking down at Mat and Aviendha though a window, so she must have been as close unless Asmodean went upstairs to find a pantry. Now Aviendha is strong in the OP, one of the strongest four in the White Tower (I know she isn&rsquo;t part of the WT ) and strength plays a big part in how far someone can sense the use of the OP. She is also a quick study, which also has a strong correlation with Strength. Therefore, with Rand being able to sense as far as he can, and afraid that the Asha&rsquo;man might sense him if he was much closer to them in WH when he visits Cairhien (he was about half the city away I think, and a palace is a lot smaller than a city) then it shouldn&rsquo;t be too unreasonable to presume that they would have sensed the large amounts being channeled even if they weren&rsquo;t &lsquo;looking&rsquo; for it.</p><p>Remember when belal was killed?  Moiraine shouted something, he turned around, and she frapped him?  He didn't really hvae time to do anything, and he certainly could have.  I think it's more of a timing thing then a skill thing.  plus if whoever channeled inverted the weaves Aviendha would not have detected them anyway.</p><p>>But in the prologue of TGH, Ishamael (At least I'm pretty sure it was him) showed all the Darkfriends an image of Rand, Perrin and Mat. So the Forsaken might . . . no, you'll probably disagree with that one. But how many people do you know that can step out of thin air without channeling? It wouldn't have taken a genius to work out who it was, especially if he was brandishing a dagger or two at the same time.</p><p>See above</p><p>>As for obvious, at the time of publishing RJ said that the majority of letters he got were wrong. We're still arguing four books later, so it can't be _that_ obvious. But as an argument - why would Graendal be there? They had been taunting him on Sammael's behalf for ages, before he even got out of the waste. Do you really believe that Graendal would have spent that much time waiting round with Rahvin? It must have been weeks between the first attack and the time Rand attacked Rahvin, and there is no way that Graendal was with Rahvin the whole time. For a start they don't trust each other enough, plus Graendal loves her 'servants' too much to be away from them that long.</p><p>>And did anything happen in POD to help with this? I can&rsquo;t remember it if it did. Everything you&rsquo;ve said so far happened in LOC and can be used just as easily to show that Sammael didn&rsquo;t do it and Graendal didn&rsquo;t know what she was talking about as it can to promote Graendal.</p><p>It's not that something happened in pod.  It was after POD when the question was asked, meaning that stuff in LOC through POD would help, just not which book.  And since RJ just killed Asmodean, the next book would be a good one to give more hints, hence why most of the quotes are from LOC.  </p><p>>And I fail to see the significance of Graendal going to SL a couple of times before Demandred told them of the DO's plans. The DO wasn't there each time as far as I recall, so she couldn't have found out about Asmodean that way, if that is what you're getting at. But she must have eyes and ears with Rand if she knew about Lanfear&rsquo;s disappearance, and so she would also know about Asmodean's disappearance. She then presumed that they were both dead. And Sammael&rsquo;s rage is all very well, but this is still LOC. It doesn&rsquo;t help separate the two during TFOH.</p><p>No no no no, what I am trying to say is that Graendal went own to Shayul Ghul and was all but promised to be naeblis.  The only thing that could possibly have warrented that was killing Asmodean.</p><p>>You're right about Moghedien though, at least the first time. But she also said it again to Sammael when he said he had been named Nae'blis, and said it with even more conviction.<br />LOC, chapter 23, &ldquo;To Understand A Message&rdquo;. p499.<br />&ldquo;Asmodean and Lanfear are dead, and I am sure Moghedien must be too.&rdquo;<br />That is the one I base my claim on, she is not in control of the conversation like last time.</p><p>Ahhh, good point.</p><p>>My main argument against Graendal though is that she isn&rsquo;t obvious (rather like your one against Slayer) because at the end of TFOH Sammael is just as likely to have been there and done it as Graendal. Two channelers, both have someone who could sense them and they can&rsquo;t be told apart without something from a later book. If you could convince me that Sammael definitely couldn&rsquo;t have been there then you&rsquo;ll have me almost convinced it was Graendal. But as I see it, if Graendal was there, so was Sammael. And if he was there, there is no way to say which one did it, which equals not obvious.</p><p>Hmmmm, well, I am maintaining that Sammael was waiting in Illian because he was expecting to be attacked after what's her name was sent to kill mat.  That's why he wasn't there, because he was waiting in Illian.</p><p>>If RJ thought it was obvious, as he does, he could have been providing clues by crossing off suspects. He didn&rsquo;t want to paint a big sign saying &lsquo;This person did it&rsquo;, so he could have. At this point though, 8 years or so after it happened, he could have decided it was about time he gave a bigger hint.<br />And as for the arrow wound, what about the Black Ajah? Or, Asmodean is a very important target, the DO might have ordered Slayer to do it anyway, he could have just had a bandage around his chest at the time.<br />But if I can use his appearance in WH (Yes, not obvious, but the truth non the less, so does show that it probably happened, making it look more likely, if not more obvious) Slayer wasn&rsquo;t wounded then, so probably _was_ healed.</p><p>Ummm, healed by the end of FOH?  MAYBE.  Who knows.</p><p>>If you want to get into a debate about what &lsquo;all&rsquo; RJ meant, we might as well debate RJ&rsquo;s definition of &lsquo;obvious&rsquo;. Does he mean obvious to everyone, obvious to people with an IQ of 170, obvious to people who can read minds or just obvious to people who already know how the series is going to end?! Or we could do the same for any number of things. Aan&rsquo;allein believed that RJ meant Asmodean had heard of Slayer. He was there, he heard the tone and expression RJ put into those words. We weren&rsquo;t. I&rsquo;m pretty sure Aan&rsquo;allein thinks Graendal did it, so he wouldn&rsquo;t have been biased.</p><p>Good point</p><p>>I think that that covers everything you brought up, your turn again! </p><p>>Lol, these responses are getting longer and longer!</p><p>It seems that neither of us are going to be able to fully convince the other exactly what happened.  And with some of the stuff going on on the board I am going to have to reread the books and see what this whoe Lews therin did it nonsense is. </p><p><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Vercingetorix<br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/803.gif" /><br />Theory Post Admin<br /><br />I went to the doctor the other day and all he did was drain some blood from my neck.  Don't ever go to Doctor Acula.</font></p><p></p>


created: 2001-04-21 00:00:00
subject: <b>lol</b>
body:
Oh no, not the &lsquo;LTT took over Rand&rsquo;s body and killed Asmodean without Rand knowing&rsquo;! RJ has said that Rand didn&rsquo;t do it, and even without that I don&rsquo;t see how there could possibly be anything to support it. Rand was watching Mat and Aviendha from a window, then talking with Bashere, it doesn&rsquo;t leave much time for it.<p>I also didn&rsquo;t and don&rsquo;t think Slayer opens a portal between TAR and the Real world, he just steps out of one and into the other. But I don&rsquo;t see why what he&rsquo;s holding won&rsquo;t go with him. His clothes etc do, and without a opening around him, he must take everything he&rsquo;s touching.</p><p>Inverted weaves weren&rsquo;t known to the reader until later, so I don&rsquo;t see how a Forsaken could have used them and still be obvious.</p><p>I read that chapter with Graendal and Sammael again, and you were right about Graendal. I must have been thinking of Mesaana. She went, seeing only Shaidar Haran, but not the DO. I can see your point though about her being all but promised the title. It doesn&rsquo;t say when she went though. She might have also gone after Demandred, like Mesaana. I wonder why the DO didn&rsquo;t speak to Mesaana . . .</p><p>I got the impression in that scene with Mat and Melindhra that she tried to kill him when he told her that Rand was aiming at Caemlyn and Rahvin next, because of Morgase. At least she attacked him right after he told her by accident that that was what was happening. But if he was waiting for an attack, why would Graendal still be with Rahvin? If Rahvin was expecting an attack, why would Sammael not be there? If Rahvin wasn&rsquo;t, why would Graendal be there? Sammael was not afraid to leave his city for a while. He did so when planning the whole thing, and he did again when meeting with Graendal in LOC. I just find it very hard to see why Graendal would be with Rahvin without Sammael, Graendal doesn&rsquo;t trust Rahvin, so is unlikely to have stayed there while Rand cooled off even if she did go.</p><p>But I agree with your last comment though, I doubt either of us will manage to convince the other.</p><p>How does this sound as a compromise, it&rsquo;s generally what gets suggested in the end of this discussion on the forum I visit. What if Graendal ordered Slayer to kill Asmodean? It would then pose no risk to herself, it explains the possibility of her knowing and of the DO knowing. Plus it gets round the argument of no channelers felt.</p>


created: 2001-04-23 00:00:00
subject: <b>A good compromise...</b>
body:
...leaves everyone unhappy.  Personally I don't think there is anyway Slayer could have done it, no matter who sent him.  The only reason the LTT theory intrigued me was because Rand had been drinking wine and then Asmodean was looking for some wine.  But as I am thinking about it at this very late hour maybe it WAS Lanfear.  Hmmm...soon, I might be changing my stance to "I don't care anymore," I think that is the best thing to do.  Alright, from here on out, except concerning questions about my question to RJ in the CNN chat on December 12, 2000, I now have an official "I don't care" stance on who killed Asmodean.  Finally, some peace and quiet around here.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Vercingetorix<br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/803.gif" /><br />Theory Post Admin<br /><br />I went to the doctor the other day and all he did was drain some blood from my neck.  Don't ever go to Doctor Acula.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-04-24 00:00:00
subject: <b>My Thoughts</b>
body:
I won't be back for this one, but I may as well chime in with my own thoughts: <p>1) Asmodean's death was described almost exactly like Be'lal's. That suggests balefire. </p><p>2) The "Kill Rand" plot involved Rahvin, Lanfear, Sammael and Graendal. Lanfear became indisposed, and Rahvin died. That leaves Sammael and Graendal. </p><p>3) Asmodean feels a chill on his way to the wine cellar. He would feel the amount of Saidin being channeled, but Saidar leaves men with a chill.</p><p>Obviously, I think it's Graendal.</p><p></p>


created: 2001-05-20 14:42:42
subject: <b>new one</b>
body:
It was the one legged man on the grassy knole.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-20 05:22:14
subject: <b>Is This A Joke?</b>
body:
Every body pay attention: This is my impression of Robert Jordan reading this post/resopnse: *ahem*:<br />Hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha. Ahahahahahahahahaha. Hehehehehehahahahahaha. Hohohohoho!(wipes a tear from his eye) AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!HAHA! FUNNY! HAHAHAHAHAHA! I HAVEN'T LAUGHED THIS HARD SINCE SOMEONE SUGGESTED MOIRAINE WAS DEAD! MOIRAINE? AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.<br /><br />                                          Thank you.<br /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" />Green Gaidin,Ash'aman, he's your neighborhood badass man!<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-20 11:40:07
subject: <b>A point regarding the original theory</b>
body:
It is suggested that Slayer would have killed asmodean by order of the Dark One.  Asmodean died quickly, and I am sure that the Dark One would order a lengthy, painful death to one who (in his mind) is a traitor.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">~netweaver~<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-21 01:24:24
subject: <b>it's so obvious</b>
body:
[Asmodean] pulled open a small door, intending to find his way to the pantry. There should be some decent wine. One step, and he stopped, the blood draining from his face. &quot;You? No!&quot; The word still hung in the air when death took him. [TFOH: 56, Glowing Embers, 682] <br /><br />Notice Asmodean says &quot;You?&quot;<br /><br />He was wondering why Lan would have come back, but it wasn't Lan it was Isam. And we know from everyone who has seen him to this point thinks he could be Lan's twin.<br /><br />Then he says &quot;No!&quot; as Isam snatches Asmodean into TAR and shuts his doorway.<br /><br />


created: 2001-05-07 21:01:49
subject: <b>Bah, I think Mashadarman has looked too deeply.</b>
body:
I think the power is the power.  Ogier were MADE with the power, it says so in the guide, and therefore have amazing abilities.<br /><br />Hate to fall into Mashy's trap, but...the power doesn't exist in the stedding, it can't even be FELT to exist, as it would if humans just distilled it.  The only way to use the power in-stedding is to carry it with you, like you do in Far Madding.  Otherwise, it doesn't exist.  After all, you don't believe that Cadsuane has &quot;pre-distilled&quot; power that she must re-distill to channel, do you?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Your.Master <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-03 14:26:31
subject: <b>Power, Power, who's got the Power?</b>
body:
There are three categories of cosmic forces. Elemental forces (earth, air, fire, water), the ethereal force (spirit), and the life force.<br /><br />If the life force were not a separate thing, then one or a combination of the others could be used to bring the dead to life. Additionally, if you say that life is a product of Spirit, then either you should be able to channel Spirit inside a stedding, or nothing living should survive the lack of Spirit inside a stedding.<br /><br />Ogier treesinging, the growing songs of the Nym, and such things are a product of the living force, and nothing to do with the forces associated with the One Power.<br /><br />When the Old Song is recovered, when the Aiel return to the Leaf, there may well be some remarkable discoveries made. Then again, that might just be my wishful thinking.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> Call me Tim <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-29 21:05:30
subject: <b>Makes some sense</b>
body:
It makes some sense really<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> AC/DC RULES <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" />im banned from heaven and hell<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-10-08 09:00:46
subject: <b>Another connection....</b>
body:
I've noticed that Ogier have &quot;Talents&quot; (note the capital &quot;T&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />, such as Treesinging, just like Aes Sedai.  hmmm...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">When in danger, when in doubt, run in circles, scream and shout<br /><br />&quot;It's the owner of the flowerbed<br />She grew roses to hide her brother, dead<br />This is the proof that I must show<br />Watch this tape and you will know&quot;<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-12 11:02:38
subject: <b>Ogier were not made</b>
body:
In response to Your.Master's post, you have the Ogier confused with the Nym (such as the Green Man).  The Nym were made in the Age of Legends, whereas the Ogier are a naturally appearing non-human being.<br /><br />The Ogier are the only race we've seen so far without the ability to channel, so it would be interesting to learn that perhaps they do have some use of it. However, I doubt that we'll see an Ogier that can channel to any degree due to the Longing they experience away from the stedding. The One Power is addictive like a drug and all the channeler POVs that have appeared throughout the series has never shown a desire to be cut off from the True Source as one would be in a stedding.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-01-19 22:27:22
subject: <b>Saidin??</b>
body:
why aren't the male orgier crazy?<br />human may not be able to channel inside steading bc the orgier distill the power so much inside it eclipses the human abilitie to channel, their ability to channel also prolongs their life?<br /><br />well there is my first theory responce how was that?<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" />=


created: 2002-01-30 15:42:13
subject: <b>Treesinging</b>
body:
I always took Treesinging to be a communication between Ogier and trees.  Kind of like a language that only they can understand.  When Loial needed a quarterstaff in the mirror world, I think he just asked for one from the tree.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />  Erith  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />The higher, the fewer.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-30 15:44:19
subject: <b>Maybe Ogier channel the normal way...</b>
body:
...but they live in stedding, so don't know it.  i don't know if this has been discussed to death here or not, so please don't kill me.  just thought i'd mention it<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Mortecareus<br /><br />Everyone is someone else's weirdo<br /><br />Madness takes it's toll.  Please have exact change<br /><br />ASCII stupid question, get a stupid ANSI<br /><br />There are 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary, and those who don't</font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-10 10:26:13
subject: <b>wasting away?</b>
body:
if you remember, Ogier outside of the stedding for too long die, but it is different for each Ogier...<br />What if the Ogier (male and female) could channel the TP, but they cannot do it inside of the stedding.  Maybe when they leave the stedding, they are affected by the TP and slowly die, unless they go back to the stedding.<br />(if you remember, Jain Farstrider had some OP/TP sickness that was healed just by being in the stedding, and Ishmael was the one who gave him the sickness, so it could have been the TP)<br /><br />not saying I agree with this post I'm just thinking out loud<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Come against me, if you dare! I am the storm! <br />Come if you dare, Shai'tan! I am the Dragon Reborn! <br />-Rand al'Thor</font><p></p>


created: 2001-05-07 21:05:56
subject: <b>Umm...wotmania?</b>
body:
The guide says the Ogier predate the Nym etc.  It does not say they were not constructs, it in fact implies that they were constructs of if not the power, then genetic engineering.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Your.Master <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-05 10:10:18
subject: <b>across the sea</b>
body:
what about the sechecian&lt;SP&gt; ogier they do not seem to be affected by the longing.  RJ may have been forgetting about that, but i dont think so.  so maybe something is wrong or different with randland's ogier.


created: 2001-06-27 14:22:16
subject: <b>Maybe...</b>
body:
... the Seanchan Ogier are coping by becoming very grim. The Deathwatch Ogier are in no way like Loial, except when he fights Shdwspwn.<br />Those Ogier may have some ter'angral that helps them also.<br />Remember the Ogier wandered over the whole world in the Breaking, so the Longing must have come to all of them.<br />Finally, the Seanchan must have found some stedding by now? My bet is Mat and Loial will meet again and Tuon will try to act as if she owns Loial / some bother about Seanchan Ogier will come up.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;We wont give a fig,<br /> We'll tell you to,<br /> Go stick your head in a pig!&quot;<br />  The Sirius Cybernetics Customer Services Helpline - Share and Enjoy!</font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-09 00:33:13
subject: <b>Tree singing</b>
body:
Hey nice theory.<br /><br />Sorry I have to disagree with one point. Treesinging is not neccesarily connected to the one power. We see through Rand's Aiel ancestors when Rand goes to Rhuidean, that the Aiel sang with the Ogier at Spring &amp; there seemed to be little differentiation between regular aiel &amp; aiel with the power. Surely they couldn't have missed people who could channel in those days. It is described as just a talent. <br /><br />Perhaps the aiel work through the ogier, but there is no evidence that there are flows working. Rand &amp; Moirane have watched Loial sing to the GreenMan's tree &amp; at other times &amp; there has been no indication that flows of the Power were in use.<br /><br />But good idea with the rest of it!<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-08-28 14:47:29
subject: <b>Reply to Treesinging</b>
body:
Thanks!  (It's my theory, btw - decided to change the online name due to 'Paul' being more than a tad boring)<br /><br />Now I reread it (it's a while since I submitted it) I can definitely spot a couple of things up with it ... but I'll defend the treesinging point.<br /><br />1)  Loial is male.  If he's got any link to the power, it's probably a reasonable assumption to make that he'd be using saidin in some respect.  Moiraine would not see anything.<br /><br />2)  Which of course gives the question &quot;Aha!  But Rand must see something!&quot;  I can think of a couple of reasons why he might not.  Firstly, he's only just become aware of the fact that he can channel at this point (singing to the Green Man's tree) - he might not be able to determine other connections to saidin.  It's certainly similar for female channelers - it's usually a little while before they see the aura around others channeling saidar.  Of course, he does see these 'cords' - one to Aginor and the other to Ishamael/Ba'alzamon, but one could argue that this is to do with the link to the Eye of the World/being in Tel'aran'rhiod (I know!  I'm grasping!)<br />Secondly - the power passing through Ogier may simply be inverted, making it invisible to all.<br /><br />As I said, though, it's a whole lot of conjecture.  It's just as easily argued that it's nothing to do with the One Power.  The only person who knows for sure is Mr Jordan, and I bet you he ain't ever tellin'!<br /><br />(Rathan - it's spelled 'definitely' <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> )


created: 2001-10-08 22:45:47
subject: <b>Perhaps</b>
body:
The Seanchan Ogier have a bargain with the Empress (may she live for ever) and if other theories are to be beleived then the crystal throne may have influenced them so that they have to follow the Empress'wishes (may she live for ever). this conflict might be the source of the grimness. Just a thought.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I am dead <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /><br />I mean Death <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" />The Darkness to <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> balance the light<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" />More than a little insane<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br />AND MY HERO TALKS IN CAPITALS<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" />Battle Brother to all the Dark One's Children <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-01 15:30:57
subject: <b>Nym..</b>
body:
wasn't they natural???<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" />religious leader of elpimpos&#8482;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />-Bringer of useless things in tough times<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" />Forever friend of Fair Angel<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-04 20:16:07
subject: <b>Talent with no connections to the One Power</b>
body:
Ogier treesinging doesnt have anything to do with the one power. Just like Min and her viewings and Perrin and the wolves. Both kinds of things had been studied in the White Tower and niether was found to have a link to the one Power. Also I have a thought that the fact that there is no way to channel in or into a stedding so what if because of this unknown source that stops the one power my idea is that, that stops the &quot;spark&quot; from being brought into the ogier and inturn makes it so that the ogier cant channel. Just an idea but i think its pretty good.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-02-07 16:16:28
subject: <b>Comment to the last post.</b>
body:
I totally agree. I am quite certain that the White Tower, especially the Brown Ajha wold have discorvered the connection betwen these talentes and the Scource. Even if they just used saidin or used some other obscure form of the Scource. At least Elayne seems quite confident that she can detect *any* angreal or ter'angreal, even those made for men.<br /><br />(I even suspect the Red Ajah of knowing how to detct men channeling... This is of course pure speculation.)<br /><br />Proxima


created: 2002-04-02 18:26:44
subject: <b>ELEMENTALS</b>
body:
I'm beleiving that the Ogier are elementals.  What I mean by this is that they are imbued with the power (both sides) but don't ever consiously touch it.  They are an ancient race... Much like the Elves from other books, or the Green man from this series.  As such they are, more or less, a part of the sources.  Being able to use it without actually channelling (tree singing, growing The Ways, seeing the Ta'veren). This may also be the reason for their long lives.<br /><br />...Also have to agree that The Longing that they get is probably due to the Taint.


created: 2003-07-14 19:33:09
subject: <b>This is</b>
body:
the dumbest theory that I've ever read.  If the Ogier could use the TS and use it undistilled then they would use both sides of it.  They only use the energy around them and from the source and don't channel it.  The Seanchan Ogier aren't special at all.  Loials been outside his stedding for what? 10 years or so?  The Seanchan Ogier just come out when needed and can stay out for long periods of time.  The only reason that they can still survive the longing while in the Westlands (I hate it when people call it &quot;Randlan&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> is because they have only been out for maybe 2-3 years tops.  <br /><br /><br />I hate stupid people.<br />That means you.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> Ghost rules.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-08-24 15:03:57
subject: <b>hmmm</b>
body:
maybe steedings had a sheild to the taint on saidin and ogier have an inborn talent but do not now how to use saidin<br />also now with the taint destroyed or suposibly destroyed would the longings be gone?<br />i think maybe the taint causes the longings so maybe....<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former.&quot; <br />- Albert Einstein<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-04-23 00:00:00
subject: <b>Agree!</b>
body:
Wolves are the lightfriends!  I never thought of it that way untill now, but it seems they have powers not available to any other group, even humans, they would have to be blessed for that!  Good idea man!<br /><img src="images/aessedai.gif" /> <img src="images/jester.gif" />


created: 2001-05-04 00:00:00
subject: <b>wolves are just wolves</b>
body:
wolves just hate fades and trollocs because they are innatural they are made by aginor! he has abused nature while making trollocs and fades! wolves don't care about humans remember in THFTH wolves don't care about the darfriends and in COS other wolves are laughing at the wolves who helped Perrin free Rand at Dumais!


created: 2001-12-01 00:16:58
subject: <b>hmm</b>
body:
What about cats? Dogs/wolves I suppose don't like females who can channel. Toveine was mauled by dogs if Winter's Heart pg.62-63. Her savoir mentioned that cats wouldn't stand her husband. I assume he would be Asha'man. Does this mean that cats are creatures of the dark. I personally belive this is the case in our world. Anyway, I think the only really good evidince the thoery has is the scene where Perrin tells the wolves who was captured, and they went nuts. I think it was because the wolves respected &quot;Shadow killer&quot; because of the amount of shadowspawn he has killed. The wolves probably just like his style. Remember Hopper helped save faile, but other wolves think Perrin is overreacting. The wolves probably just help who they like.


created: 2002-01-07 14:56:52
subject: <b>Ravens in the DO's service</b>
body:
I don't really believe that wolves would be Lightfriends that carries out the Creators will. But something that speaks in favour of that theory is the fact that ravens (and maybe some other animals that I don't remember) serves as spies for the DO. Couldn't the wolves be doing the same thing for the Creator?<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /> some kind of shadowspawn on acid


created: 2002-04-08 17:12:47
subject: <b>Light Spawn?</b>
body:
The Shadow has Shadow spawn so maybe... in a turnig of the wheel far removed some one created wolves to serve the Creator.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-07-13 04:22:21
subject: <b>Other animals can enter T'A'R</b>
body:
All untamed animals can enter T'A'R. Umm, what else? <br />Shadowkiller is the wolves' name for the Dragon- just like Car'a'carn, Coramoor,the Dragon Reborn. Possibly the wolves even knew LTT.<br />The dog attack just shows the reverses of Saidin vs Saidar yet again. Cats prefer Saidar, but dislike Saidin. Dogs prefer Saidin, but dislike Saidar. This is a particularly cliched bit of WoT- cats and women, dogs and guys.<br />And i believed wolves dislike Trollocs because of the mutation of wolves, etc with humans- humans are, on the whole, nowhere near as nice as animals. Animals are innocent- and possibly they dislike the mutation of their own species in particular. I don't think wolves engage in fullscale war or murder except for food, so perhaps that is what they dislike the most- creatures who don't just kill, but are a twisting of their own species with their entire purpose being to kill needlessly.<br />B<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" />  Tuibird in Aotearoa <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-04 22:27:33
subject: <b>Umm, what about the horsey's?</b>
body:
I could be mistaken, but in the Shadow Rising, didn't Egwen, I think when she first tried to enter Teleranhoid (&lt;--sorry) without the ring, notice that there were other animals in the world of dreams,like rats and goldfish and some other stuff. In fact I think the only animals that were'nt there were humans, and for some strange reason, horses?


created: 2005-02-05 12:36:51
subject: <b>'lightspawn'</b>
body:
there is light spawn IT IS EVERYTHING the creator made everything so everything is lightspawn (except shadowspawn)<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gholam.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sammy.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/seanchan.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lan.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perrin.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" />;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bela.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rand.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/min.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/thom.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/avi.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/uno.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/birgitte.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/berelain.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/egwene.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/loial.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-09-18 20:18:08
subject: <b>lightspawn</b>
body:
the DO had no hand in shdowspawn (except myrddraal).  Shadowspawn were made by Aginor in immitation, sort of anyway, of the Nym (Tolkien alert).  the Ogier are like natural lightspawn.  Oh, and the everything except SS are lightspawn thing is good too.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>It's not apples and oranges, but no one paying attention could compare these apples without noticing: <br />(a) one is 12 times bigger and <br />(b) both of them are rutabagas.</i></font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-04 17:46:08
subject: <b>Why Rand Didn't Get Sick</b>
body:
I may have a possible reason why Rand didn't get sick the first time he channeled...<br /><br />First of all, he didn't use a full Healing or anything like that, just a bare brush of the Power to make Bela less tired and more able to keep up. So it wasn't like Nynaeve's first Healing experience, where she used probably all the Power she could handle at that time to completely Heal her dying friend. So maybe we wouldn't necessarily expect Rand to get as sick. He does become very ill after he drops a lightning bolt on the inn in Four Kings... his first real use of a signifigant amount of the Power.<br /><br />Secondly, after the first leg of their journey, what is the first thing that happens when they start to make camp? Moiraine goes around and heals everyone. Again, not a full heal, just a little &quot;booster shot,&quot; but coupled with the fact that Rand might not have gotten very sick in the first place, it could have been enough to wash away everything except the dizziness and light-headedness you mentioned.<br /><br />Just a thought.


created: 2001-09-09 00:42:43
subject: <b>Rand's sickness</b>
body:
Rand was separated from Moiraine about a day after he channeled at Bela.  There may not have been enough time for him to get sick in her presence.  I think this because I'm not sure Rand got sick instantly after he channeled on Domon's boat or at the Four Kings Inn. Even if he did, the speed with which the sickness took hold may have a direct relation to the amount of the One Power used.  So I don't think Rand used the extra power there.<br /><br />Also, the Forsaken seem to know the difference between when they grab the OP and when they use the TP, they must have some different way of opening themselves to it.  Rand would have noticed this difference when he was channeling cups to float, or make it rain in the Waste, or the other non-violent uses of the One Power. Or when he tried to heal the girl in Tear (trying to save someone's life).<br /><br />In good fun, I must point out that if the Lightfriends' power was created to oppose the Dark One's power, it would be the False Power.  And it probably is false.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-11-21 10:23:16
subject: <b>wrong.....</b>
body:
The speed that they get sick after their first touching of the one power is not determined by the amount of power drawn or anything like that.  It is said, I believe by Moraine, that the touching and the sickness are a time apart and that the time between touching and sickness keeps decreasing with each touching untill they both happen simultaniously.<br /><br />PS, the whole lightfriends theory is pretty loony.


created: 2001-11-27 20:29:39
subject: <b>Creator and Dark One</b>
body:
The DO has the True Power, to help out his most important followers.<br /><br />The Creator has the one power, to help turn the wheel, his most important follower, among those who use it. (Bear with me)<br /><br />The Dark One also has his own little cabal of followers, that don't use any kind of power.<br /><br />The Creator is the accepted God of Randland. His followers are whoever worships him (he has no cabal of followers, that's something the dark one does) pretty much everyone but the Darkfriends, who still have the benefit of the world he created. (interesting fact, Shai'tan means satan in, I think,not sure, a language from around the sahara, I know it means Satan though)<br /><br />The Dark one one gives his True Power to a very select few of his followers, out of those whom the creator gave the inborn ability to channel.<br /><br />The Creator gives his power to a randomly chosen few, you'd think it's random, of those who he created. The Light is more random and peaceful, seems to me, he Created the world at the begginning of time, along with the Dark One, and stays out, seldom so much as speaking to anyone of his creations. (Except Rand, once, who can wield the power...)<br /><br />See what I'm getting at?<br /><br />The Creator gives the spark or ability to learn to channel at a person's birth, where they are completely innocent, and therefore his followers. The Creator, it seems throughout the books, only gets involved at the begginnings<br />of things: the creation, Rand's first actual channeling, etc... He would not, therefore, get involved in a person's life later, after they join the Dark, to rip away their ability to channel. It makes sense to me at least.<br /><br />As I have been leading to, the Creator creates, and let's things grow on their own.<br /><br />The Dark One, Perverts, and changes things as they go.<br /><br />They are opposites, but not equal opposites, the Creator not only created the Dark One, right? (I'm not sure if he did in the story) But even so, he can always create, perversion stems from creation, when something in a thing's growth goes awry.<br /><br />Sorry for dragging on, but I justy want to put in all of my thoughts, leading to this theory. And it is my first theory post.


created: 2002-01-20 22:05:50
subject: <b>Re-read and get your facts straight</b>
body:
First of all, about the only thing you got right was that Rand's first touching of the Source was helping Bela during the flight from Emond's Field.  Go back and read everything that happened in Baerlon a week later.  You will notice Rand has a terrible headache; the headache fades and is replaced with a feeling like his head is &quot;packed with wool.&quot;  Not too much later, after running into Padan Fain and then Mat, he feels dizzy, then giddy, then flushed and excited.  After the incident with the Whitecloaks, the feeling suddenly disappears.  Now, skip ahead to the events following their short stay in Shadar Logoth.  Everyone gets separated, and Ny runs into Moiraine and Lan.  Moiraine proceeds to reveal to Ny that she, too, can channel and describes in perfect detail everything that we just saw Rand experience...that EVERY wilder experiences when they must channel alone for the first time.  Ny is dumbfounded because it all happened to her, as well.  So, sorry to blow your original theory totally out of the water, but the reason Moiraine missed seeing Rand's reaction to his first touching was because Rand didn't tell her.  He wouldn't tell her about his nightmares...what makes you think he'd tell her he was feeling a little sick?  Oh, and as an aside, Rand is the Dragon Reborn...LTT didn't channel a True Source from the creator anymore than I can so neither does Rand.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />  Erith  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />The higher, the fewer.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-18 12:53:51
subject: <b>creator talking to rand?</b>
body:
could you tell me when the creator talks to rand cos I probably missed that bit when I was readin the books.. and what did he say?


created: 2002-05-08 19:14:25
subject: <b>rand did get sick</b>
body:
rand got sick and had fever and all the other stuff,in eotw when him and mat were attacked by the lady darkfriend(the foxfaced women in wh)so rand did suffer from the usual pains.<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-08-21 21:43:12
subject: <b>Rands sickness</b>
body:
Ok, everything happened exactly like Moirraine said.<br /><br />1.) Channeled to heal Bela, acts crazy, sickly w/ Whitecloaks at Baerlon.<br /><br />2.) Channeled on Spray to keep the Trolloc from gutting him right after running from Shadar Logoth. Later he feels lightheaded and funny on the mast of Spray and pulls the stunt that scares Thom and the rest of the crew and makes them think he's crazy.<br /><br />3.) Channeled in Four Kings, got the bad sick fever chills a few days later.<br /><br /><br /><br />I am trying still to figure out what Rands block was... I think he has to have one, because with what happened after Four Kings he was sick just a couple days later, and the next time he channeled we dont here anything about when he was sick. That means he learned to channel safely by then, just like when Moirraine said 1 out of 4 could do that, but they always didn't realize they could channel and they always had a block. Maybe because he knew he was channeling at the Eye he didn't get a block...


created: 2003-01-26 13:46:27
subject: <b>he did too get sick!</b>
body:
Rand at first channeled unconsiously, and he did get sick<br />1. He helped bela run faster, and he got dizzy.<br />2. He channeled somewhere in caemlyn and got dizzy and giggly soon after<br />3.  Before caemlyn, he channeled at that inn with the skinny innkeeper, and after, he got really sick, so sick he couldnt stand up.<br />4. He channeled somewhere in shadar logoth, dont remember where, and then on Domon's ship he took foolish chances and felt very giddy, which are also symptoms of touching the power unaided.  Getting sick is not the only symptom of using the one power, if you remember what Moiraine said.


created: 2004-10-26 13:34:11
subject: <b>Go read the WOTFAQ</b>
body:
Every lurker on wotmania should at the very LEAST go read the WOTFAQ before they post stupid crap.  People seem very confused.  Straight from the source, here's Rand's Power Acquisition Fever Syndrome:<br /><br />1.<br />ACTION:  Made Bela run faster.<br />RESULT:  Dizziness in Baerlon, followed by giddiness.  Pulled a stunt in front of Dain Bornhald and the other Whitecloaks.<br />DELAY TIME:  At least a week (10 days), perhaps a little longer.<br /><br />2.<br />ACTION:  On Spray, caused the boom to swing over and whack the Trolloc in the chest, saving Rand's life.<br />RESULT:  Giddiness and feeling of invincibility, resulting in Rand's acrobatics on top of the mast.<br />DELAY TIME:  Four days.<br /><br />3.<br />ACTION:  Calling down lightning in Four Kings.<br />RESULT:  Sickness, fever, shaking (influenza symptoms)<br />DELAY TIME:  Two days.<br /><br />4.<br />ACTION:  Using the untained saidin from the Eye of the World.<br />RESULT:  Temporary memory loss.<br />DELAY TIME:  Almost immediately.<br /><br />So there you have it.  Rand did have the symptoms of the Power Acquisition Fever Syndrome, and there is no &quot;False Power&quot; to combat the DO's &quot;True Power.&quot;  The Creator's power is the One Power.  Wait, doesn't Rand channel that?  I think he does!


created: 2004-10-26 17:47:22
subject: <b>C'mon...</b>
body:
This theory doesn't make very much sense and is wrong in alot of ways. Besides the faults already pointed out above, the Jenn Aiel are not the Tinkers. There were two splits from the Jenn Aiel (The tinkers split off then later the Aiel as we know them split off.)<br /><br />I think reading the series at least 2 or 3 times through should be a prerequisite to posting any theories.<br /><br />(&quot;Amen&quot; to AgingComputer btw.)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Ehhxxxhilennnt&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2005-08-30 21:51:46
subject: <b>UHH... no</b>
body:
Rand did get sick.  in Baerlon.  He had a cold.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>It's not apples and oranges, but no one paying attention could compare these apples without noticing: <br />(a) one is 12 times bigger and <br />(b) both of them are rutabagas.</i></font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-19 23:37:41
subject: <b>Dead</b>
body:
The others who were granted the privelage of using the True Power are all dead, after the War of Power. The only reason we have these thirteen around in the present time is because they happened to be at Shayol Ghol(sp?) when the Dark One was sealed. They were sealed with him, trapped outside of the pattern (And time) and thus they are around today. The others who were granted the true power were probably hunted down before the breaking or killed in it, but because they weren't sealed, they died eventually.


created: 2001-06-20 02:33:07
subject: <b>No</b>
body:
I disagree, but it would be kind of funny if Rand ran into a Forsaken that no one knew about.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ph34r!</font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-19 10:13:05
subject: <b>Taim</b>
body:
What if Taim is one of the forsaken? We know he is not Demandred, but how about this? Taim was one of the chosen, but after the sealing of the others he was hiding for a couple of thousand years(like that guy in highlander).<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">IRAFO*<br /><br />*I Read And Found Out</font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-10 09:23:01
subject: <b>let's do some math over</b>
body:
moghedien said : only 29 OTHERS <br /><br />so that would mean(in your theory) there are 4 others<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">His name is not an<br />Hava is not a word<br />He has no inn<br />He is an hava inn</font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-27 23:51:01
subject: <b>killed each other off???</b>
body:
I just have a feeling that there were two different factions that tried to kill each other off...<br /><br />Obviously, they would need a male and female channeling together and so we have four people that killed each other.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Short and sweet</font><p></p>


created: 2006-03-07 21:12:29
subject: <b>duh</b>
body:
That's no bloody theory!!! It's a flaming question burn you. (I felt like talking like Uno)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Poets have been mysteriously silent on the subject of cheese.&quot;     -G. K. Chesterton<br /> <br />My naked walrus is on fire. <img src="images/personalsmilies/41668.gif" /><br /><br />TEVT: We are back in business! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/w00t.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2006-07-30 17:47:25
subject: <b>IMO</b>
body:
In the Age of Legends, there were numerous dreadlords and quite a few Forsaken (or Chosen, as they would name themselves).  At the moment Lews Therin sealed the bore, 13 of the strongest were having a meeting at Shayol Ghul.  All the other Forsaken outside the bore eventually died off when the breaking took place.  Most likely it was amongst those other darkfriend-channelers that Moghedien got her number of 29 people given access to the true power.


created: 2001-05-21 12:24:46
subject: <b>Semiraghe and the Seanchan</b>
body:
In WH, Tuon was looking at her soe'feia in one of the first chapters and the description of the Truth Speaker leaves little doubt in my mind that she is Semiraghe.  First point, she is described as wearing all black all the time (something we know that Semiraghe does), doesn't sweat ( something that only Aes Sedai, Asha'man and the Forsaken know how to do), and enjoys punishing Tuon when she feels that the DotNM is doing something foolish ( Tuon remembers her punishment as being one of the most physically painful thing she had ever experienced).  Also, the soe'feia has just barely the accents of Seanchan in her speech as if just acquiring them.  All this evidence brings me to believe the Semiraghe is now posing as Tuon's soe'feia and is withTuon, Mat and his companions.


created: 2001-05-30 10:33:50
subject: <b>Anath</b>
body:
I agree with the post by Someshta, Semirhage is Anath, Tuon's truthspeaker.<br /><br />When Semirhage is torturing Cabriana and her Warder, Semirhage notes to herself that if she loses her patient before getting useful information from her, she will be forced to remain wherever she is at the moment, until another Aes Sedai is caught. This just after a summons to Shayol Ghul, and IIRC, she believes that the place she is working in isn't far from S.G.<br /><br />The conclusion from this is: Cabriana is captured, Shaidar Haran summons Semi, puts her to work doing what she does best, and then passes the briefing to Aran'gar for her trip to Salidar. As long as Semirhage's work is satisfactory, she will be allowed to return to her normal location immediately.<br /><br />None of this precludes her from being Anath, and the description of both Anath's appearance and behavior are beyond coincidental with Semirhage.<br /><br />Besides, after nine books her location has to have been given by now, and this is all we have. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> Call_me_Tim <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> Call me Tim <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-20 02:39:44
subject: <b>Hmmmmmm.....</b>
body:
I really need to stop using this title.  Anyways....<br />I have yet to read WH, so I have no idea who Tuon or        A-what's-her-face is, except from you people's posts, but I do know this:  Semi is not at the White Tower, that is Mesaana.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ph34r!</font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-30 17:55:16
subject: <b>More Proof of Anath=Semirhage</b>
body:
I'm totally in agreement of the Anath is Semirhage theory and I think I have another reason that hasn't been mentioned yet. In Lord of Chaos, Semirhage kills the Aes Sedei, Cabriana Mercandes, before getting all/any of the information from her. But she doesn't care since she knows she could get another soon. If she was anywhere in Randland a disappearence of an Aes Sedei would probably be noticed by the commoners (or royalty). Plus, many Aes Sedei have friends in the tower. I haven't ever read the Guide yet but I know that they rarely go into the Aiel Waste, board Sea Folk ships, enter Shara, and I doubt they have ever been on Tremalking or that giant female sa'angreal would be carted of to the tower. Anyway, the only land I think of that an Aes Sedei would be fairly easy to come by would be Seanchan. I know that the Seanchan got a couple Aes Sedei on Toman Head and I can't remember if they had continued their invasion of Randland by book 6. If so they probably got some more. Anyway thats just what I think. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Eben Hopwil <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-13 07:30:56
subject: <b>Semirhage is the Amyrlin's Maid</b>
body:
Now, it is fairly obvious that Semirhage is in Salidar. Demandred, Mesaana and Semirhage was working on a plot together, and most likely the other two are in the two other towers. Now, someone once said that Semirhage has a willful charge. This could of course be Sevanna, but I think it is Egwene. We know she is willfull enough. By the way, Semirhage is described as being quite motherly, and what better description to apply to Chesa.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> <font color="a52a2a">Magnus Alexander corpore parvus erat </font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <font color="b8860b">Dissenting voice of wotmania</font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <br /><font color="6495ed">Frightfully stubborn pacifist</font> <br /><br /><i><font color="669900"> Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent</font></i></font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-07 23:34:25
subject: <b>Interesting, but...</b>
body:
I really think Semirhage (sp?) is with the seanchan.  For one, there is a supply of AS there, as the Seanchan seem it is there job to stuff all of the AS in collars.  For another, the AS in Salidar would <i>definately</i> notice if people started dissapearing.  I mean, there are not that many of them anyways.  That all seems to point to the Seanchan.<br /><br />I wonder how long she will stay with them now that Tuon is gone with Mat....<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ph34r!</font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-13 17:11:40
subject: <b>Probably not with Seanchan</b>
body:
The Seanchan leash all of their channelers, how could Semirhage escape being leashed around all of those channelers.I think it more likely she is in Shara, and Mesaana is bringing her Aes Sedai.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> DarkKnight <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />&quot;What is, is, don't fight the past.&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-07 17:03:27
subject: <b>Semirhage as Anath</b>
body:
I just have a few things that I want to point out.  <br /><br />First, it is very feasible that Semirhage could survive in Seanchan, despite her ability to channel.  Many of you seem to have forgotten that at some point in the series it is made known that people in the Age of Legends had the knowledge of masking one's ability to channel.  Moghedian was held captive among so many Aes Sedai in Salidar using this technique, and no one even SUSPECTED that she could channel, let alone who she really was.<br /><br />Second, women who can channel are not called Aes Sedai in Seanchan, so the theory that there are several Aes Sedai available for torturing over there is entirely untrue.  And besides, any channelers found on the other side of the Aryth Ocean would have no useful information for Semirhage anyway..  OK, I know this seems like I am contradicting myself, but bear with me.  The only way that Semirhage could obtain more Aes Sedai (if she is indeed disguised as a Seanchan) would be for the Seanchan to leash another as damane (and we all know that they would NEVER dream of doing this... <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" />).<br /><br />OK, now for the third.  Semirhage's &quot;willful charge&quot;.  It is fairly obvious, since the release of Winter's Heart, that Suroth, the current leader of the Seanchan's preparatory mission, is a Darkfriend.  Semirhage being with the Seanchan, and a Darkfriend who holds a prominent position in Seanchan hierarchy says, to me, that it is more than simply coincidence.  I offer that Suroth is Semirhage's willful charge.  Draw your own conclusions as you will.<br /><br />Alright, enough of my ramblings for now.  Just wanted to give you folks some food for thought.<br />Peace.


created: 2002-02-19 19:53:55
subject: <b>Well...</b>
body:
It's unlikely that Semirhage killed Cabriana Mercandes before extracting the necessary information from her, she's not even dead by the end of the chapter and when Asan'gar shows up in Salidar, she is posing as a travelling companion of Mercandes before she was killed, using the information gathered by Semirhage to flesh out her cover story.  Quite obviously, that's why Semirhage was requested by Shaidar Haran to question an Aes Sedai in the first place : so that Asan'gar could infiltrate Salidar safely, have a motive to go there and a reason to know that the AS were gathered there. The reference to waiting for another AS to be captured if Sem killed CM was just a clue for us to understand that any AS would do (not one from Salidar, though!), Semirhage wasn't looking for specific knowledge, just for personal information from one sister.<br /><br />The mysterious woman is Salidar I always believed to be the Tower envoy who seeks to see Elayne and Nynaeve shortly after.<br /><br />I agree that Semirhage is most likely Anath.  It must have been to her that Ishamael/Mesaana intended to send Egwene and Nynaeve in TGH (when Liandrin delivered them to Suroth to bring with her to Seanchan, etc.).  I think that Ishamael as leader with Demandred, Mesaana and Semirhage had a rather coordinated plan since their release and part of it was for the Seanchans to invade the Westlands. Mesaana, I think, was to assume control of the BA/WT in Ishy's place and to weaken the Tower and dirty it's reputation (which certainly worked).  My guess is that Semirhage is watching over the Seanchan and Demandred was busy creating chaos using multiple proxies to weaken the South and the West (Saldaea, Arad Doman, Tarabon, Amadicia, Altara, Ghealdan) to facilitate the invasion.


created: 2004-07-27 01:58:23
subject: <b>errr...</b>
body:
i know no one will read this as no one has posted in this theory in like 2 years, but this is bothering me. The woman in the window is Moghedien! i thought that was obvious.


created: 2005-09-23 06:25:13
subject: <b>Salidar</b>
body:
The person that Nyneave saw in Salidar was Moghedien.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">WAFFLES!<br />Bonded to Model_02<br />Alicia wishes she was as hot as me<br />Member of Anatidaephobians Anonymous<br />Not-So-Near Second Cousin to Saeric Greylord<br />Officially better at hockey than DREWRULESWOT!<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-20 03:47:02
subject: <b>Cool, but....</b>
body:
Actually, a couple of buts.<br />One, she probably wouldn't keep her obsession with Rand since the reason she was in Finnland origonally was Rand said he didn't love her, and so she tried to kill him.  Doen't sound like there was any love lost there, does it?<br />Second: How, in all that's holy, will Rand get a Mindtrap from someone who uses the True Power?!?  Moridin could probably tie Rand in knots without breaking up a sweat, unless Rand sneaks up on him, which is not likely.  Moridin strikes me as an incredibly alert man.  Also, Moridin has access to fancloth, and it's kind of hard to kill someone you can't see (remember, fancloth makes you invisible).  And even if Moridin didn't use his fancloth, or Rand and Moridin don't use their respective powers, (One and True) the Mindtrap is EXREMELY fragile.  If they got into a wrestling match for it, it would probably break, and leave Lanfear as a mindless, soulless machine, doing only what it was told, and nothing else.  That would kind of defeat the purpose of having Lanfear on the Light's side, as her wiles, mind, and experiance are what makes her so strong (and those are exactly what she would lose if it was broken).<br />All this makes it kind of difficult, don't you think?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ph34r!</font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-20 04:13:11
subject: <b>Oops...</b>
body:
Scratch my previous comment, I have submitted it as a theory.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ph34r!</font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-02 00:31:58
subject: <b>Missing Lanfear</b>
body:
I'm with JMC on this one but stricly for selfish reasons.  If Cyndane is Lanfear, and I assume this to be a foregone conclusion, after reading &quot;Winters Heart,&quot; her thoughts reflect a very angry woman and that anger is directed at Rand.  Given this, it is highly unlikely (as much as JMC and I wishes it) that Cydnane/Lanfear will take any action that would help the Dragon Reborn.  But from a selfish standpoint, I was dismayed when Jordan chose to &quot;kill&quot; Lanfear off in her battle with Moraine.  Then he resurrects her as Cyndane, a character no where near as beautiful as my favorite forsaken.  Maybe Lanfear is using the &quot;mask of mirrors,&quot; to look like Cyndane-and for what purpose, no one knows, but that's a theory for another time.  Come on Mr. Jordan, give us (the Lanfear groupies) a reason for hope.  Maybe in book Ten eh?


created: 2002-01-26 17:21:17
subject: <b>Lanfear</b>
body:
I really wish Lanfear would come back.  I totally hated it when Jordan decided to kill both Lanfear and Moiraine off.  Those two were my favorite characters, for different reasons.  It'd be really cool if Lanfear were not reborn, simply using the mask of mirrors or something like that.  But, of course, with Jordan we never know.  It would be really cool if some sort of turn over were to happen with Cydane/Lanfear turning to Rand, who cares about the light, but on his side.  Now all we see from her POV's is a crazy bitch who only wants to kill Rand.  I liked it when she would speak to him, I loved it when I'd see her POV, her total POV.  Not what we see now, only that she hate's him and wants to kill him.  Well lets just hope that Cydane develops to be such a cool character like she was previously.


created: 2002-05-31 20:24:44
subject: <b>But then again....</b>
body:
I hadn't considered Lanfear/Cyndane turning back(?) to the Light until reading this post. While the possibility is remote, who better to help Rand repair/&quot;remove&quot; the Bore than the one who made it to begin with?<br />Of course, as wotmania says, &quot;How can rand make Lan-dane 'see the Light' again?&quot;<br /><br />I agree, this is an awesome site!<br /><br />Aloha,<br />Joe<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Awesome June Jones...I'm glad you took your 1-11 season to another WAC - expatriot. You truly are the most over-paid Division I coach. Go Bows!</font><p></p>


created: 2002-11-12 21:46:09
subject: <b>Lanfear is evil, period!</b>
body:
Her one single motivation is POWER.  Where there is power, there is Lanfear.  Think about it, that is what drove her to drilling the bore in the first place: her desire for more power than people already had.  Then, she was enticed by the power of the DO.  However she is a woman and she does have feelings, so she loved LTT.  And hoped with all hope that he would love her in return and lead her to a greater power still.  Now she is returned and still hopes to make Rand love her as well as her ulterior motive of gaining power again.  And if she can not make Rand love her and use him to gain greater power then she wants him to be destroyed so that he will not be greater than she.  Lanfear even suggested challenging the Creator!  How can someone who wants that ever be good?<br /><br />Cassandra <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />


created: 2003-01-03 00:08:33
subject: <b>just one point</b>
body:
you made a comment about the things lanfear did geing far into the past and therefor she could be differnt or somthing along those lines. But she was sealed in the bore and was untouched by time in a dreamless sleep if i am remembering corectly so without any thought to give a reference to her it could feel like a few days. therefore the gap in timeline isnt realy a reason for considering she might welcom the chance to repent.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /> ITS TIME TO TOSS THE DICE <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Seine sovya caba'donde ain dovienya<br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-17 22:09:02
subject: <b>My take from there</b>
body:
I have alwways had Lanfear as a character only second to Moiraine on my favorites list. This is the first time I've read theories on her, but for a long time I've fantasized about her turning to the Light. She clearly is always out there for herself, so if she sees a better oppertunity, she'll go for it! Plus, Rand never really seemed to hate her. I think this is all going to happen the same time Moiraine comes back, shorlty before Tarmon Gai'don. Rand is clearly going to kill Moridin and all those other people shortly before that happens. When he does kill whoever (most likely Moridin) has the mindtrap, he will take it and be able to free Lanfear of it. Though &quot;a woman dead and gone&quot;, I believe, applies to Moiraine, it could apply both to her and Lanfear. Remember her &quot;Whatever you can do, Lews Therin, I can do. And better&quot; ? She AND Moiraine could both be involved in helping Rand succseed at TG. She had to be reincarnated, plus it COULD be considered &quot;dead and gone&quot; if she turned to the Light. She'd be dead to the Shadow, in a sense. Over all, it's a wonderful theory. If it's true, I could stop saying &quot;Dark illumine you&quot; when my friends say &quot;Light illumine you.&quot; (we enjoy speaking from our fav character's PoV, and speaking from Lanfear's is more entertaining than from Moiraine's). So, as I love to say to my best WoT fanatic friend &quot;The wheel weaves as Robert Jordan wills. Let's just hope that's what WE will too!&quot;


created: 2003-11-25 03:41:57
subject: <b>I can't see it happend</b>
body:
Lanfear is my favourite female character, mainly because she was evil, if LanfearCyndane returns to the ligth it would ruin the character. Lanfear is evil... Besides, I can't see how her ambition for power ever would be satisfied if she had to submit to rand. Face it the womans only ambition is to gain power... It's the only thing that drives her. Not love of RandLews Therin... She only loved Lews Therin because he was the most powerfull man in his age, and she loved Rand because he was to become the most powerfull man of his age. Besides, if the LanfearRand match ever was to take place what then about MinElayneAviendha? In order for the LanfearRand match to happend Rand has to abandon the three loves of his life, and that I'm sure would never happend in a million years...


created: 2001-04-06 00:00:00
subject: <b>WH spoiler</b>
body:
OK, it is January 01, I believe that WH was out by then.  At the end of the book it is said that Dashiva was Oran'gar (sp?).


created: 2001-06-23 19:54:45
subject: <b>Re: Who is Dashva Really?</b>
body:
In WH, it was mentioned that Dashiva is really Osan&#8217;gar.  Also, Osan'gar is definitely Aginor, since both were mentoned to have created the Shadowspawn.  When Osan'gar first appeared in the book series, he was told he was responsibe for the creation of the Shadowspawn.


created: 2001-11-20 00:16:38
subject: <b>One little problem?</b>
body:
Perhaps I am missing something , but since when can Orangar channel anything but saidar . Surely Dashiva cannot be Orangar simply for the fact that Rand and everyone can sense saidin in him .


created: 2002-01-03 16:02:39
subject: <b>piney k</b>
body:
first of all, it's osan'gar, not oran'gar.  second of all, he could never channel saidar.  osan'gar and aran'gar (halima) are both male forsaken who were ressurected by the dark one.  aran'gar/halima is balathamel, and osan'gar/dashiva is aginor.  whats with all this crap from people about &quot;who is dashiva?&quot; Read WH for crying out loud.  sheesh. <br /><br />sincerely,<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />the lover of light and wisdom<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" />the all-seeing eye<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />the wandering wotmaniac<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-09 16:28:59
subject: <b>Wow</b>
body:
What a genius. Did you figure this out all by yourself? See, cuz in Winter's Heart it states pretty clearly that Osan'gar is, in fact, Dashiva. So where in the hey-yall did you get the idea that Osan'gar was Corlan Dashiva?<br /><br />God, I love bashing theories. There's nothing quite so satisfying in the whole damn world.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> former Akutenshi member <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> Organizer of TRACS <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> member of the Trigger fan club <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />Trigger fears: <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/berelain.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> I'm aliena's jig-dancing partner <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> jealous? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /> If I'm here, consider yourself blessed by my presence <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-31 07:44:03
subject: <b>There must be...</b>
body:
...something very wrong with the dates on the early theories on this board...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> I'm Jacks complete lack of suprise <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-20 02:21:24
subject: <b>Not Likely</b>
body:
I remember in one of the books, (I think it was tDR) Ishmael(sp?) told Lanfear that &quot;the Great Lord's oaths are not so easily broken as the bonds of the Light that you forsoke(sp?)&quot; or something to that effect.  I think I got a couple of words wrong, but that's what was said.<br /><br />I it is so hard to break free of the DO, will Lanfear really try?  Rand has already made it plain that he does not love her, so that won't be modivation.  I think she will stay Lanfear.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ph34r!</font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-25 11:51:13
subject: <b>True... not very likely, but...</b>
body:
Even if Lanfear is Cyndane(I'm convinced), who better to help or show Rand how reseal the Bore properly than the woman who made the infernal thing? <br /><br />Also, if she ever manages to break free of the mind trap, she might find that the ties that bind to the DO have become a little too tight.<br /><br />If she turned &quot;good&quot;, I wouldn't trust her farther than I could kick her (which wouldn't be far, I doubt she'd give me the chance <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> ).<br /><br />I personally don't think this would happen, her personality and pride would get in the way, but it's always fun to speculate. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;The law of probabilities decreed me guiltless of his blood for in all my small experiences with guns, I had not hit anything I had tried to hit, and I knew I had done my best to hit him.&quot; ~ Mark Twain</font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-17 10:38:49
subject: <b>...</b>
body:
I think when Min had that viewing she knew it was Moiraine.. I can't remember if it was said outright, but I'm pretty sure it was strongly implied <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-02-08 12:06:38
subject: <b>Hmmmmm</b>
body:
I believe that it is basically agreed that Cyndane is Lanfear.  The only way that I can see Lanfear turning to the light is for one last desperate stuggle in which she dies to save Rand or someone close to Rand.  I cannot believe that she would go to the light in terms of a complete conversion for a couple reasons...A) It is  assumed that Moridin's other mindtrap is Cyndanes; and where I bet we will see someone break a mindtrap, i'm not confident that it will be her (or even moggie), and B) I dont think anyone would trust her enuf if she came to the light...Granted she could make up some story about who she is...remember, she is not the same as any of our friends of the light remember.<br />          I believe that she has a part to play yet for good, but I'm unclear as to what that is.  =)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" />     Asha'Twan     <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br />To use no way as way, to have no limitations as limitiation.<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Lee Jun Fan<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-29 11:19:32
subject: <b>It'd be cool but...</b>
body:
I doubt it. We can hope though can't we?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br /><i>I will try. Before surrendering to dreams or death, I will try.<font color="black"></font></i></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-14 15:59:54
subject: <b>Olver actually Gaidal Cain?</b>
body:
Is little Olver actually Gaidal Cain, he who was always connected to Birgitte? Is he too old or is he the right age? Just a thought that appeared while reading book 5 for the second time. Any comments?


created: 2003-02-25 00:35:25
subject: <b>Lanfear rules, incase any of you didn't know</b>
body:
To start, I love the theory. Before I read this, I was useing some of the same principle ideas that you mentioned to prove to my friends that it is possible. I very much favor the idea that Moiraine is that person, but I find it entirely possible that this applies to two people. Also, since Lanfear would be dead to the Dark, and Moiraine really hasn't ever died, that almost makes Lanfear more likely. Moiraine will probably help in a smaller way, but she isn't near Lanfear's strength in the Power, or at least she wasn't before Lanfear became Cyndane.


created: 2003-04-29 11:33:19
subject: <b>The oaths to the dark</b>
body:
Certainly are harder to forsake than the ones to the light.  The D.O. has shown that he takes a far more active role in the day to day goings on of the world than does the creator who seems to pretty much be a non entity so far.  You forswear the oaths to the dark and you will very soon find a myrdraal waiting in your closet for you.<br /><br />While I wouldn't be surprised completely to see Lanfear/Cyndane be involved in somehow helping Rand again.....I do think that even that has a small chance of happening.  Her rage at finding out he had slept with Avhienda seemed to finally wake her up to the realization that not only was Rand NOT Lews Therin....but he didn't now and never would love her.<br /><br />No way does she turn to the light for him.  She is far more likely to do so as an act of rebellion and/or a grab for power because of the way she is being treated by Moridin and because of the humiliation of the mind trap.  And that isn't too bloody likely either <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />


created: 2004-10-14 10:25:24
subject: <b>*sighs*</b>
body:
The person long dead is more likely to be moraine, in the books she has been gone a very long time<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Look whos talking you surrendered just like france!&quot;<br />&quot;Maybe we should try to reach a compramise, WHY IM NOT FRENCH!&quot;<br />&quot;A true warrior is prepared even in times of peace&quot;<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />Evil Incarnate<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2007-12-04 00:28:02
subject: <b>I'm undecided.</b>
body:
I think that woman long dead is Moiraine, But it would be absolutely cool if Lanfear turned back to light.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /> Carai an Caldazar! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Warder to Model_02<br /><br />Hyv&#228; Suomi!!! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/w00t.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Taking responsibility takes all the joy out of life, and drains a man to dust.  -Mat Cauthon<br /><br />Never kiss a girl whose brothers have knifescars.          -Mat Cauthon</font><p></p>


created: 2008-03-10 11:03:29
subject: <b>Moraine</b>
body:
I think that Cyndane is Lanfear reincarnate, and that she is definitely not returned to the Light. I also believe that &quot;the woman long dead&quot; or whatever, is probably Moraine.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">-The Force is like duct tape, it has a Dark side and a Light side and it holds the universe together.<br />-Come to the Dark Side, you'll get matching jackets!</font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-20 04:17:55
subject: <b>Cool</b>
body:
Great idea.  I never really thought of Taim.<br />Cool  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ph34r!</font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-24 10:57:50
subject: <b>Moridin</b>
body:
Ishamael is Moridin. RJ says as much in Winter's Heart if not sooner.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-04-10 18:19:24
subject: <b>Taim=Ishamael?.</b>
body:
The darkfriend Ashaman were instructed not to allow anyone to find out their plans about killing Rand.  They also had orders form Taim to kill him, but Taim especially was not supposed to know the darkfriend plans.  I think that this points away from Taim being Ishamael, but perhaps the person who gave the ashaman their orders did not know that Ishamael was Taim, if he is Taim.<br />Book 8, one of the ashaman think it, the one killed by Fain's dagger in the street.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Wotmania Writers' Guild</font><p></p>


created: 2003-04-28 12:22:27
subject: <b>I think</b>
body:
that one problem that we as readers and moreso as posters of various theories we have is this.  We assume to readily that all the characters of the shadow MUST have some secret identity to puzzle out.<br /><br />In many cases this is true...Annath(Semirhage), Dashiva(osan'gar..I think...always get the 2 gars mixed up when not actually looking at the book =p), Mesaana(someone in the tower as yet unidentified)  Halima(the other Gar)  The list goes on as many of the followers of the dark One have found ways to disguise themselves and infiltrate the followers of the light.<br /><br />Not ALL of them have though.  Some of the Forsaken are seemingly content with working through proxies and have maintained their own identities at least for the most part.  Ishamael in particular I think...is one os these.  Apart from appearing as Baalzamon and &quot;The watcher&quot; both of which are not really hidden identities, he has been only himself.  Despite various theories that link him to Taim I feel that not only is Ishy/Moridin NOT him...but that Taim is just himself as well.  No forsaken masqerading as Taim...he is merely a Darkfriend albeit a fairly powerful one.<br /><br />There are any number of hidden sub plots, mysteries and intrigues buried in the details of this series.  In the course of figuring some of them out, either ahead of time by piecing together various clues or simply because eventually Jordan exposes things, we come to always expect there to be surprises.  Despite the fact that there ARE many surprises....some things actually are as they appear.  In my opinion...Taim is one of those things.<br /><br />As with any other poster here....I could be wrong and in this case I didn't even bother to dig through the books looking for quotes or specific evidence to back myself up.  For all I know it will become obvious in the next book that Taim is actually the real father of Rand and it has been his constant working with the power that has slowed him thereby disguising his age.  The fact that he is Rand's father means that first prophesy wasn't fulfilled and it comes out that in fact the real Dragon Reborn is Moridin and he has already been turned to the Shadow.  Of course the odds on this being true are about as good as the cubs winning the world series this year =D


created: 2003-06-13 13:53:45
subject: <b>Ishamael was never sealed.</b>
body:
Lews Therin goes insane after the Bore is sealed, and he has his encounter with Ishamael after he has went insane, if we remember.  He was never sealed.


created: 2005-02-18 19:22:35
subject: <b><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /></b>
body:
this is good, and i think i finally found someone i can think of as who taim is.<br /><br />I think some posters are confused. (correct me if im wrong, but) the theory is not saying ishy is taim, as in IS taim, but ishy is masked as taim.<br /><br /><br />Good!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">-Sabin<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-11 08:02:28
subject: <b>Dashiva</b>
body:
I thought it was quite obvious that Osan'gar=Aginor=Dashiva. After reading the last part of WH where you see trough Osan'gar`s POV he practically tells you that he is Aginor resurrected(shadowspawn creation <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" />) and masked as Dashiva(he says so... <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />).


created: 2002-05-15 19:34:01
subject: <b>Osan'gar Dead Again...</b>
body:
Yeah, Osan'gar WAS Dashiva, but he got blasted at the end of Winter's Heart (With the Chodan Kal) while trying to stop Rand from cleansing Saidin.<br /><br />Elza: Today, she had been forced to fight the Chosen. Surely the Great Lord would understand if she had actually killed any of them, but Corlan Dashiva was only one of those Asha'man.<br /><br />Cadsuane: [she] did not like losing two of her people in return for no more than a few singed Forsaken and one dead renegade.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Heh, Heh... Aiel are cool! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rand.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/avi.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-03-02 12:55:41
subject: <b>osan gar is ishmale?</b>
body:
osan gar is deffinitly not osangar. one thing he would be named nae'bliss. second he would be tons more powerfull in the power. third osangar is prety scared of shadar haran. shadar haran would not cut off ishmale from the power because ishmale is the DO's favorite sevant. also ishmale/moridin is not afraid of shadar haran.


created: 2001-06-14 22:45:02
subject: <b>It wasnt niall . . .</b>
body:
in the fires of heaven . . it was one of Myrelle's warders, Nuhel, who was talking about the great generals (p. 469 paperback) and the fifth guy in Arad Doman Rodel Ituralde<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">CodeBlue Signature Virus! Copy me into your signature, help me spread.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-30 12:36:50
subject: <b>Old Cully....</b>
body:
Old cully would be the fella you be talking about, but its doubtful he would be a general...I dont think great war generals would scanter about in public wearing rags doing survelence on other darkfriends...<br />But Jordan is a wonder<br /><br />so let it be as it lays<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Dzugashvilli Incarnate<br />                  Infamous Dreadnaught<br />                  Baptist of Blasphemy<br /> <br /><i>Rules and Order are the bane of life <br /> Only chaos frees the soul</i> - Madrox Stalin</font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-09 02:42:42
subject: <b>About Old Cully</b>
body:
We were told by either Carridin that Old Cully was the leader of his circle of darkfriends. Carridin is not from Arod Domon, so he could not be the great general talked about.<br /><br />Cya<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-09-09 02:29:50
subject: <b>The old man in Ebou Dar</b>
body:
WINTER'S HEART<br />S<br />P<br />O<br />I<br />L<br />E<br />R<br /><br />...was Noal Charin (the old dude with Mat), isn't he?. And hile he might be Jain Farstrider, it would be a bit much to believe he is also Ituralde. (Unless he is a plant of Graendal's to assess Mat's command abilities--which is unlikely because she wouldn't interfere with Semirhage/Anath's territory)


created: 2001-09-11 10:00:00
subject: <b>Padan Fain</b>
body:
I may be wrong but I think Graendal's old man is Padan Fain.<br />Wasn't Graendal in the White Tower?  At the same time that the old man in the wrinkled coat was seen through the gateway by Rahvin (I think he was the one) Padan Fain was at the WT because just a few chapters before that he had just talked to Elaida in the Amyrlin's study.<br /><br />Just a thought, I could be wrong, however.<br /><br />Krane


created: 2001-10-28 17:49:48
subject: <b>The Dude</b>
body:
What we know of Rodel Ituralde:  He's old and in Arad Domain and he is a member of the Royal Family.  He could be one of Graendal's pets.  Or it could be Noal/Jain.  When we find Noal in Ebou Dar, his mind is all out of whack, spending time with Granny can do that


created: 2002-04-30 16:49:35
subject: <b>It isn't Fain.</b>
body:
Fain has said several times that he wants to kill all the Chosen because they always get in the way. He wouldn't hang around with one of them. But I could be wrong. Won't know until the next book comes out.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> ..Graendal, she had many shades as a jegal had scales, slipping from one to another like lightning..<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> Proud Founder of &quot;The Chosen&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Everyone needs their Edgucation! A.24-M.24<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-29 12:29:44
subject: <b>Mightn't he just be the king?</b>
body:
It's certainly possible he's the general, but he also might be the king of Arad Doman (who I also don't recall having ever seen onstage). That's what I thought reading that same passage. I doubt (for no particular reason) that Graendal's old man is the same one also seen in Ebou Dar.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />I need a nap.</font><p></p>


created: 2004-02-04 06:32:17
subject: <b>Rodel Ituralde</b>
body:
Ok, he's known as the Wolf, he's going to lead Domani and Taraboners against the Seanchan in Arad Doman, he serves the king of Arad Doman...my bet is that he's the other great general.


created: 2001-07-09 02:59:12
subject: <b>We saw her</b>
body:
Aliandre observes that Mesaana had gold on the hem of her dress &amp; remembers it in PoD.<br /><br />Later, either Eliada or Seaine, the white sitter who is hunting the black ajah, is walking through the hallways &amp; notices a white sister with gold &amp; black on the hem of her dress &amp; takes note because White ajah usually don't adorn their clothing. <br />This sister is Mesaana.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> That's what I think anyway <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> Doubt at your PERIL!!! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-03-19 17:48:57
subject: <b>Sounds aboot right</b>
body:
I'd hazard a guess that Mesaana will end up being someone who occupies a post that does minimal work and attracts little/no attention: NOT AES SEDAI!!!!!!!!!!<br /><br />We will probably see Mesaana ending up being a minor sevretairy to an Aes Sedai that is conveniently never in the tower.  (In a disguise of course).  It just doen't make any sense for a Forsaken to make such a stupid mistake as becoming an Aes Sedai in the middle of a revolution in the White Tower.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&lt;rant&gt; Canadian and proud of it! &lt;/rant&gt;</font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-05 16:00:38
subject: <b>Not to mention....</b>
body:
Egwene sees your Stranger 2 with the Aes Sedai embassy in T'A'R, and she is positively identified as Suane.  Sorry.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Questions, Comments, Thoughts?<br /><br />Geoff<br /><br />Artificial Intelligence <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/r2d2.gif" border="0" /> <br />is no match for<br />Natural Stupidity <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-07 17:46:21
subject: <b>response to mesaana's identity</b>
body:
the 2 women in the tower in tel aran roid were suane and leane... remember leane had eyes in ears in the city itself and suane was rooting thru the amyriln's study... this was while egwene was still with the wise ones but after min and co reached salidar...


created: 2004-09-02 15:24:59
subject: <b>They are Siuan and Leane!</b>
body:
We learn that in LoC too. You just have to read. Egwene talks about seeing the determined woman with the Salidar Six in LoC, and then she learns about Siuan and Leane.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">If you talk to God, it's prayer. If God talks back, it's schizophrenia.<br /><br />Studded belts don't make you hardcore, honey. They just make you a safety hazard.<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-14 20:56:29
subject: <b>Alwhin</b>
body:
Anath is much more likely to be Semirhage than any of the other Seanchan unknowns, with most of the evidence in the chapter with Tuon on the ship.<br /><br />Don't mind my speling, it's horrable today.


created: 2002-07-15 22:22:47
subject: <b>what about the sharan's????</b>
body:
i agree that the Forsaken are trying to infiltrate all the various channeling societies. i am even leaning toward the <br />Seanchan as Semirhages choice. But what about these mysterious Sharan's. we know that they have elaborate ways of dealing with and breeding channelers. which of the Forsaken, if any, do you think are wriggling into that mess? that is where i believe Demandred is anyway. the whole Taimandred thing is a joke in my opinion. my two cents. <br /><br />Mr_MolsonXXX


created: 2003-08-17 23:08:42
subject: <b>Good theory!</b>
body:
Just one thing, though. You said the DO is trying to infiltrate Forsaken into all major military/channeling forces, i.e., White Tower, Black Tower, Salidar, and Seanchan. However, you left out the Sharans, Aiel, Seafolk, Kin, and Whitecloaks. Shara hasn't really played much of a part yet, so she probably isn't there since so far it's not important. She also probably isn't w/ the Whitecloaks since being a woman she wouldn't be able to get a position of power and w/ Carridin there the Dark side already has a powerful spy already in place. <br /><br />She could be, but most likely isn't, with the Kin, but I don't think she is b/c they seem to be more of a sideshow piece (at least so far) and are under the thumb of Rand/Elayne in Andor, and so are not a central power. She sould be hiding w/ the Sea Folk, probably as a Windfinder, but so far I haven't been able to find anything to prove or disprove this. My personal opinion though is that she isn't b/c the SF aren't influential enough in the story yet for the DO to need to place a Forsaken w/ them.<br /><br />My opinion is that she is hiding either w/ the Seanchan, as you said, or w/ the Aiel. We know the DO has some way of getting info from the Waste (i forget which book, it was when Rand was about to leave for Far Madding and visiting all of his cities, including Rhuidean, before disappearing), and the DO knew about it from spies there, possibly Semirhage. Personally, though, I think she is with the Shaido (maybe as Therava), b/c 1.Therava has nothing but contempt for Galina, as Semirhage has nothing but contempt for all AS. 2.Therava absolutely delights in terrifying (and presumably, torturing) people, a la Semirhage. 3.The Shaido were forcibly dispersed, presumably by the DO's orders, so it would make sense for him to have her there to make sure they are &quot;spreading chaos&quot; and whatever else the DO wants. 4.(Not sure about this), but I think Semirhage is one of the few Forsaken left to not have been &quot;taken over&quot; by Moridin or Shaidar Haran, possibly b/c she is out in the wilderness w/ the Shaido, preventing them from finding her or reaching her w/o being seen. <br /><br />What do you think?


created: 2001-06-20 05:01:08
subject: <b>Nice!</b>
body:
I like the Laras/Semirhage thing, and have something to back it up.  When Laras was in the room with Siuan and Leane, she wanted to leave immediatly, maybe so they couldn't sense that she couldn't channel?<br />Hmmmmm....<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ph34r!</font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-21 13:05:47
subject: <b>Ummmm</b>
body:
I agree with the essential theory (Mesaana = Danelle) but not with your reasoning. There are better clues.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" />Karlaan <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/myrddraal.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-11-06 02:30:58
subject: <b>What?!? No!! You Lose</b>
body:
No, the masons hired by Danelle seized the Tower and Grounds, and fought AGAINST Hammar and Coulin, who attempted to free Siuan and Leane.  They didn't help them!  Sheesh.  I know this is an old post, but seriously, come on.  This excellent use of tactics (Mesaana is described in the BWB as an accomplished general) is one of the major reasons people point to Danelle as having suspicious Mesaana-like behavior.


created: 2001-07-19 12:15:30
subject: <b>Hindsight</b>
body:
In hindsight, this is all crystal clear of course, but also think of Dashiva flinching at rand's &quot;No one stands toe to toe with the dragon reborn!&quot;<br /><br />Blood of Kings


created: 2001-11-12 11:07:20
subject: <b>About Healing</b>
body:
I don't think Healing has anything to do with knowledge of the body and how it works.  A geneticist wouldn't be able to perform open heart surgery, so why should Aginor be able to Heal, necessarily?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font face="old english text mt"><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />  Lord Avatar Darkstorm <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />  King of the Morning   <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />  Prince of the Day     <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />  He Who Rules the Night<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font> <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-13 09:55:56
subject: <b>Dunno</b>
body:
The fact that he can heal may not be very important. But added with the other stuff, it does incriminate <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Wielder of teh Dutch l00ny!<br />(*mumble* Did that make sense? .... Oh well)</font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-20 07:12:21
subject: <b>Nice one mate.</b>
body:
Coming up with that before WH, good effort.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">You must chop down the tallest tree in the forest with... a herring!<br /><br /><br /><font face="courier new">l(a</font><br /><br /><font face="courier new">le</font><br /><font face="courier new">af</font><br /><font face="courier new">fa</font><br /><font face="courier new">ll</font><br /><br /><font face="courier new">s)</font><br /><font face="courier new">one</font><br /><font face="courier new">l</font><br /><br /><font face="courier new">iness</font><br /><br />F<font color="#111111">a</font><font color="#222222">d</font><font color="#333333">i</font><font color="#444444">n</font><font color="#555555">g</font><font color="#666666">o</font><font color="#777777">u</font><font color="#888888">t</font><font color="#999999">a</font><font color="#AAAAAA">n</font><font color="#BBBBBB">d</font><font color="#CCCCCC">n</font><font color="#DDDDDD">o</font><font color="#EEEEEE">w</font><font color="#FFFFFF">gone</font></font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-21 13:17:42
subject: <b>Yes. Yes. Yes!</b>
body:
I agree completely. And regarding your healing problem... Dashiva/Osan'gar was the one who started Damer Flinn off as a Healer in the first place. D/O probably recognised the healing potential in F. Actually, the scene where they say that Dashiva was just 'wondering' about different weaves for Healing was when I began to suspect him. Try to draw a paralel with Nynaeve-it doesn't work.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" />Karlaan <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/myrddraal.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-27 21:30:29
subject: <b>Dashiva IS Osan'gar</b>
body:
Check out page 645 in the Hardback Winters Heart:<br /><br />&quot;Crouching behind a fallen log, Osan'gar panted from the exertion of running.  Those months masquerading as Corlan Dashiva had not made him any fonder of exercise.&quot;<br /><br />This proves beyond a doubt...  Dashiva is Osan'gar.


created: 2004-10-21 14:32:57
subject: <b>Healing</b>
body:
AoL Healing and present day healing are quite different. It might look very suspicious if someone &quot;rediscovered&quot; a lost Talent like that.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">The only way to convince me is by providing some evidence!</font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-19 15:33:03
subject: <b>Are you guys ill? It's very simple.</b>
body:
Anyone who has read Winters Heart and does still not know who Cyndane is needs to be cuffed upside the head. GO AND REREAD THE LAST CHAPTER, SPECIFFICALLY PAGES 641 AND 648/649. Then procede to call yourself a woolheaded sheepherder for being so slow that you missed it the first time!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-16 08:32:54
subject: <b>Of course Cyndane is Lanfear</b>
body:
In Finnland Lanfaer mad her wishes and the price she had to pay was her beauty. It is made pretty clear in Winters Heart that she Lanfear, becouse there isn't anybody else that has the same obsession with Rand. The Dark One was pissed at her for conspiring against her so he gave her to Moridin.<br /><br />The only other person that could be so obsessed with The dragon Reborn I can think of (and I know this sounds absurd) is Lews Therins Wife.<br /><br />Greetings


created: 2002-11-16 05:43:34
subject: <b>Civility</b>
body:
Children, of course I know now that Cyndane is Lanfear. This theory was posted before WH. Just watch your flaming tounge Green Gaidin.


created: 2001-07-13 09:59:28
subject: <b>She still could be</b>
body:
The mindtrap could be taken by the light...<br /><br />I used to believe this theory, but it just doesn't work given the last few books.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Your.Master <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-05 18:53:20
subject: <b>Lanfear</b>
body:
If she did get turned to the light she would want the dragon and all to herself.  So she would try to kill Min, Elayne, and the Aiel women (I forget how to spell her name). Rand might not like that, so I think RJ would have run into a dead end. Rand couldn't and wouldn't kill her, she would be hard to send away, so the only other opption is to ditch the other women and get it on with her. So he has the same probelm with his X-girl friends. (two of witch can channel.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> Master of Wolves <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> King of Fire <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Weilder of Balefire <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br />      Maldais <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/myrddraal.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-21 19:01:51
subject: <b>Nah...</b>
body:
Lanfear loves herself above and beyond anyone else, and Rand knows it.  So does the DO, I'm sure, now that I think of it.  Should she turn, her hypothetical allegiance to Rand would be tenuous at best.  And even then only until it became painfully obvious he only has enough love for three women, which would happen pretty quick.  Her only alternative then would be to break off from both sides, in which case she would likely be hunted by both Dark- and Lightfriends.  I doubt even Lanfear could keep clear of both sides for very long.  The only thing that MIGHT keep her on Rand's side is if she decided he was absolutely going to win, but we all know she would manipulate everyone and everything to get her way.  Rand wouldn't stand for that, because the only one in his camp that gets his way is Rand.  It's charming and romantic to think Lanfear might change her ways, but it's not going to happen.  It might be interesting to see who would kill her first though...my money is on Aviendha.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />  Erith  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />The higher, the fewer.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-03-05 22:34:35
subject: <b>power monger</b>
body:
The biggest problem I have with this theory is that Lanfear is a power monger. She would only share power with someone would be if the second person was her subordinate. Her idea of sharing is like that of a two year old. The entire reason she thinks of maybe betraying the DO (In TGH when with Rand) is for the thought of absolute power and being able to control Rand who she sees as a mere child.


created: 2005-02-18 18:03:57
subject: <b>eh.....</b>
body:
good, yet bad.<br /><br />My biggest problem is how would lanfear deal with Min,elayne,and aviendha? Lanfear being who she is, she would definitely not deal well with sharing rand, or Lews Therin, in her mind, with THREE other people...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">-Sabin<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-06 11:40:47
subject: <b>How could she NOT be?</b>
body:
Cyndane makes her first appearance at Graendal's place along with Moghedien, and then is at a meeting of forsaken at which Semirhage is present. That would only leave Mesaana among the non-Lanfear choices, and Mesaana doesn't appear to have failed anyone in her work in the White Tower.<br /><br />That Cyndane is of the Forsaken is certain. She has personal knowledge of the AoL, and speaks with the other Forsaken in far too familiar terms to not have known them already.<br /><br />Cyndane echoes Lanfear's wishes, that her and Rand could challenge the Dark One or even the Creator by using the Choeden Kal, but since Rand yet again spurned her affections and temptations and let Nynaeve use it with him to cleanse Saidin, he would have to die. Cyndane and Rand have had no direct contact, so who has tried to tempt or seduce Rand? Among the female forsaken, Lanfear is it. Rand has never come face to face with Graendal, Semirhage, or Mesaana, and the closest he's been to Moghedien was while Moggy was leashed to Nynaeve in T'A'R and they watched Rand finish off Rahvin. <br /><br />Cyndane is Lanfear. Not Lanfear+Moiraine. Just Lanfear.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> Call me Tim <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-19 15:42:27
subject: <b>Are you guys ill? It's very simple.</b>
body:
Any body who has read winters Heart and does not know for sure who Cyndane is needs to give their heads a shake. GO AND REREAD THE LAST CHAPTER, SPECIFICALLY PAGES 641 AND 648/649. Then go ahead and call youself a woolheaded sheepherder for not seeing the first time.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-29 23:07:08
subject: <b>its true</b>
body:
read those pages and its very simple.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />the lover of light and wisdom<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" />the all-seeing eye<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />the wandering wotmaniac<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-21 21:21:04
subject: <b>Thank the light!!!</b>
body:
Whoever wrote that theory that cyndcane is not Lanfear needs to be shot. I can MAYBE, just maybe, though barely, believe that maybe C is a combo of Lanfear and Moraine, but I highly doubt that too. But, to say that she is either Messana or Sem. is just insane and stupid. For all that don't believe me, just look at the above posts. End of story<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /> True Power is knowing that you can, but you don't. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-red.gif" border="0" /> -Deathbone1 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-green.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Current rank in Wse PTS: 164 out of top 1000 (7/8/03)<br />We are men of action. Lies do not become us.<br />Life finds a way.<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-16 15:55:01
subject: <b>Lanfear is Cyndane</b>
body:
The pages said above prove it with her mention of Aielfinn. I made a theory proving with quotes from those pages that Lanfear is Cyndane but it has not been posted yet.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former.&quot; <br />- Albert Einstein<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2008-10-25 04:29:07
subject: <b>whatever...</b>
body:
&quot;was turned over to Moridin? Perhaps Semirhage failed in some way as well? Anyway who ever she is, she just can&#8217;t be Lanfear. If she is Lanfear where is Moiraine?&quot; <br /><br />You say that Cyndane &quot;just can't be Lanfear.&quot; For Light's sake why not? There are more questions in your theory that answers, and no evidence or quotes at all. General consensus in the WoT community is that Cyndane IS Lanfear, and this is born of the fact that it is simply OBVIOUS. Who else would speak of LTT in such ways (see KoD, its in another theory somewhere) and take meetings and familiarity with other Forsaken? Perhaps a review is in order.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">rebel_ashaman   <br /><br />We rose on the winds of the rising storm<br />We ran to the sound of thunder<br />We danced amoung the lightning bolts<br />And tore the world asunder<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-26 18:01:27
subject: <b>have NONE of you even read the books??????</b>
body:
First, Cyndane is Lanfear.  Read the chapter called &quot;With the Choedan Kal&quot; almost ever Forsaken is mentioned and their true identity given.  Ever mention of Cyndane, even thought Cyndane has, even ALL of her mannerism points out that she is Lanfear.  <br />Need more proof - this seals it.  <br />Same chapter, page 649 harcover version - &quot;Then the woman struck back at her, and she suffered her second shock.  She was stronger than cyndane had been before the Aelfinn and teh Eelfinn hald her!&quot;            <br /><br />Suck on that!!!


created: 2001-08-25 17:01:27
subject: <b>Of course she's lanfear!</b>
body:
I completely disagree with this theory, Cyndane does = lanfear. I don't know how lanfear got back, but here is one idea, you said the only way for lanfear to get back was for moiraine to kill her. Moiraine knocked lanfears angreal out of her hand during their battle. No one knows what happened then, but it is very possible that some of lanfears channeling ability was burned out at that time. Also, maybe moiraine GOT that angreal, in which case she could most likely beat her. I haven' read that specific book for a while, so if the angreal was left behind in the real world don't yell at me! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-09-10 08:44:22
subject: <b>haHA</b>
body:
In Winters Heart, Cyndane thinks something like &quot;he had refused her love, and she would kill him for it.&quot; I know that wasn't exactly what she said, but it was somewhere down that path. That would point to Rand rejecting Rand, so there's no doubt in my head.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i><font face="times new roman"><br />But the dogs you say they fed you to<br />Lay their muzzles in your lap<br />And the lions that they led you to<br />Lie down and take a nap</font><br /></i><font face="wingdings"><font color="blue">h</font></font></font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-16 22:31:32
subject: <b>read WH</b>
body:
it all but spells it out for you in the last chapter cyndane is lanfear resurrected woolhead <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angry.gif" border="0" />=


created: 2002-03-21 21:27:32
subject: <b>Ummmm....</b>
body:
My god, thank you everyone. Maybe this screwed up theory can finally be put to rest. There is soooooo much more proof of who C is compared to some of the other forsaken (ex: demandred). Again. Thanx for pointing out the obvious guys.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /> True Power is knowing that you can, but you don't. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-red.gif" border="0" /> -Deathbone1 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-green.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Current rank in Wse PTS: 164 out of top 1000 (7/8/03)<br />We are men of action. Lies do not become us.<br />Life finds a way.<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-01 19:41:40
subject: <b>strenght in the power</b>
body:
but they also say that lanfear was more pwerful than cyndane is, and we know that strenght in the power doesn't change with a new body from the DO. (aran'gar and osan'gar)<br /><br />the finns did something, maybe even switched their souls or something? is there a physical description of cyndane anywhere?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Seeking Aes Sedai for Bondage... uhh bonding. <br /><br />We rode on the winds of the rising storm,<br />We ran to the sounds of the thunder,<br />We danced among the lightning bolts,<br />and tore the world asunder.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-28 11:57:13
subject: <b>Lanfear is Cyande</b>
body:
Lanfear is weaker as Cyande because she had her three wishes or questions or whatever from the Finn, and thus the price she paid was losing some of her strength in the power.  Seems prettye asy to understand to me, What do ya'll think?


created: 2002-09-03 11:58:25
subject: <b>Cyndane isn't weaker</b>
body:
When Moghedien and Cyndane go to visit Graendal to tell her she must serve Moridin, Graendal thinks to herself that Cyndane is stronger in the power than she herself is, which was rare in the AoL, let alone in this time and that it was odd for Moghedien to be in her company since she is jealous of anyone having more of anything than she does. I don't believe it ever says Cyndane is weaker than Lanfear.


created: 2006-02-19 00:53:25
subject: <b>Lanfear could have died.</b>
body:
If she entered once before and asked for strength in the power, she went through again and the finn killed her, Moraine only went through the door for questions.  She wasn't killed, it wasn't her second time through.  She made requests, but forgot the price, her price was imprisonment.  Lanfear was revived by the DO, but her wishes were for her body, not her soul, she returned to her original strength.


created: 2001-07-15 12:24:28
subject: <b>Cyndane is Lanfear Reborn</b>
body:
While it is possible that Cyndane is meerly the real Lanfear with an inverted weave, this is highly unlikedly due to her changed name, as well as her decreased power level.<br /><br />Cyndane means &quot; Last Chance &quot; [ as Moghedien told the reader ]. Why would she take the name Cyndane for herself? She wouldnt. The Dark One re-named her Cyndane, just like he re-named Aginor and Bathameal, so that they didnt remember their other name. <br /><br />Cyndane is also a little less powerful than Lanfear, but pretty much still the most powerful female Forsaken. Only that Seanchan sul'dam is more powerful than her, and thats just because of ' old things returning '. Also remember that Cyndane is Moridin's little servant and does whatever he tells her to. While they were Lanfear and Ishamael, things didnt work exactly that way, but the two still got along amazingly well considering their both Forsaken, and Forsaken scheme against each other more than they do against the Light. Lanfear also has to watch whatever she does now, because of she screws up again and dies, theres no coming back. The big D.O. isnt going to ressurect her this time. I think the only reason he brought her back in the first place is because shes powerful , and can be a usefool tool. She's lost without guidence though. The first time she actually fights anyone after coming back [ her little ' fight ' with Rand in the Stone, TSR, wasnt to the death or anything. she pretty much just told him to use Callandor and walked away ] she gets killed by one of those children who call themselves Aes Sedai<br /><br /><br />Knave<br />Master of the Editors<br />Perviest of the Perv<br />Slave to the World


created: 2001-11-13 10:01:21
subject: <b>I think</b>
body:
That Lanfear's decreased power was Moiraine's wish.  She wanted to be as strong as one of the Forsaken, so they took the ability from Lanfear and gave it to everyone's favorite meddling little so and so.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font face="old english text mt"><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />  Lord Avatar Darkstorm <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />  King of the Morning   <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />  Prince of the Day     <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />  He Who Rules the Night<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font> <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-10 17:33:33
subject: <b>Nice thought</b>
body:
Here's a thought why the DO would like to disguise Lanfear as someone else.  As Lanfear her mere presence and looks would tell the story of power to everyone including the Forsaken.  They pretty much all fear or have respect for Lanfear, but if they don't know it's Lanfear because different body, they will believe she is someone new.  This nocks Lanfear down quite a bit in the social hierarchy if no one can recognize her, and she really can't disobey the mind trap or the holder of it which probably won't let her tell who she is.  It's all a psychological thing man.


created: 2003-04-29 10:50:28
subject: <b>I don't think</b>
body:
That it is anything quite so complicated here as far as motives for hiding who she is on the part of the Dark One.  It has become quite obvious that th D.O. has the ability to ressurect his fallen chosen as long as they didn't succumb to balefire.  In order to ressurect them he needs a new shell as it were.  Some body to put them into.  I don't think that he is neccessarily hiding anything from anyone any moreso than that he simply doesn't usually provide very much information at all to anyone.  He tells each of his chosen what he wants from them...sometimes even giving them conflicting orders and enjoys watching them sqabble amongst themselves for power.<br /><br />The fact that the D.O. doesn't send out a memo letting everyone know all that he has done and who is who isn't surprising at all.  I think that Lanfear did in fact die as a result of the aelfin doorway...whether it was the simple destruction of the doorway or a later death at the hands of the finn or whatever....she died in there and I think the means aren't terribly important or it would have been part of the story and we would know.  She died....D.O. ressurected her.<br /><br />Why Lanfear herself doesn't come out and reveal herself to the other chosen?  This also seems to have a simple reason behind it.  Revealing her true identity means letting the other chosen know of her tremendous blunder.  As stated above...Cyndane means last chance.  This signifies that the D.O knew at least in part of her plans and ambitions.....probably not all of them as plans against the D.O. himself probably wouldn't have warranted that &quot;last chance&quot; even under the strictures of the cour souvre(sp).  I would guess that what he did know was that despite his orders she was plotting for her own gain on a personal level and when she discovered that not only had &quot;Lews Therin&quot; spurned her but actually slept with another woman she went on a rampage and tried to kill him thus going against the D.O.'s wishes to keep him alive and turn him to the shadow....&quot;let the lord of chaos rule&quot;<br /><br />In short (OK I very rarely say things &quot;in short&quot; =D)  I don't think that this particualr area needs a &quot;theory&quot;.  This is one of the few parts of the series where I think we were handed all the pertinant information right up front and there is no hidden meaning or agenda.


created: 2004-10-23 15:19:43
subject: <b>Cyndane's Strength</b>
body:
The thing that hangs up everyone in refernce to Cyndane is simply her change in strength in the OP.  Cyndane is still more powerful than Graendal, but not as powerful as Lanfear was.  That means that Lanfear was the strongest female channeler by a fair margin.<br /><br />So let's take this logically.  First, the change in power is NOT, I repeat, NOT a punishment from the DO.  The DO can place souls in a new body, NOT change their strength in the OP.  If he could, the ressurected Forsaken would be super powerful.  Yet we see Dashiva holding the Power in ACoS, and Rand thinks that it's ALMOST as much as he himself can hold.  Aginor was the 2nd most powerful male Forsaken.<br /><br />Second, I don't believe that the change is the result of being healed from severing.  One reason is that while Lanfear might have been burnt out, she was not stilled -- and RJ has told us that being burnt out is completely different than being stilled.  So its unlikely that Nyn's healing would work the same way on a burnt out person.  Another reason is the difference in strength afterwards.  OK.  Before Nyn, Elayne, and Eg, Siuan Sanche was as powerful as an Aes Sedai could be (except for Cadsuane).  Delana thinks how Suian was always more powerful than her by a fair margin.  So, if the cut-off point for Aes Sedai is level 4 (this is all supposition, btw, but it illustrates my point) and Delana is 7, then Suian is level 9.  Now, post-healing, Delana thinks that the power margin now goes the other way.  So Delana is 7, and Suian is 5.  This makes sense because while Suian isn't the very weakest an Aes Sedai can be, she's describes as so far down that it doesn't really matter.  So, that's a drop of 4 levels.  Depending on whether or not that's based on PERCENTAGE of OP strength, or just a change in levels, Cyndane should be MUCH weaker than she is.  Say Graendal is a level 15.  Cyndane is a 16.  Lanfear is a 18 (to give her that fair margin).  If you go by levels, Lanfear would be down to a 14, weaker than Graendal.  You can, of course, say that Lanfear might be more powerful than level 18.  But remember, Suian lost nearly 50% of her strength.  That would place Lanfear pretty far down there.  Therefore, the change in strength wasn't a result of healing being severed.<br /><br />Third, the quote is &quot;she was stronger than Cyndane had been before the Aelfinn and Eelfinn held her!&quot;  This implies that the change took place while she was being held, i.e. as a result of a wish.<br /><br />In conclusion, this all ties together to show that Lanfear's power change to Cyndane is a result of the *Finns, not anything else.


created: 2001-08-20 02:44:18
subject: <b>Olver is too old</b>
body:
Cain was spun out of the wheel not long before Birgitte was ripped out. The boy is much older than this, but that was right around the time Rand and Aviendha laid together.... hmmm?


created: 2001-12-11 16:51:03
subject: <b>The Wheel makes it all possible</b>
body:
Because we are dealing with so many futures that can be changed by certain things, balefire for one, we have to consider that the Wheel forsaw that Birgette would be pulled from the World of Dreams and therefor spun Gaidal Cain out in the form of Olver.  I would love to be Olver! :b


created: 2002-01-30 18:39:15
subject: <b>Agree</b>
body:
I agree.  Didn't Min say that there would be something &quot;odd&quot; about Aviendha's babies?  Wouldn't reincarnation (not to mention ugliness) be uncommon coming from two (relatively) normal people?


created: 2002-05-16 20:32:55
subject: <b>We'll know when...</b>
body:
It  seems that we'll  know when Min views Olver and says, &quot;I see you with an older, but gorgeous archer.&quot;<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Awesome June Jones...I'm glad you took your 1-11 season to another WAC - expatriot. You truly are the most over-paid Division I coach. Go Bows!</font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-15 22:25:28
subject: <b>Old chicks</b>
body:
Amys' comment was because Aviendha had gotten Rand in the sack, not because she was pregnant.  She isn't, at least not yet, certainly not from that roll in the hay (er, snow).  If she is going to have Gaidal Cain as her son, I certainly hope he likes older women.  A LOT older.  Because Aviendha still has to get pregnant, pop the sucker out, let him grow up, reach puberty, and suddenly find himself incredibly attracted to this middle-aged, slightly sagging woman with blond hair and a bow.  And even if Gaidal is one of Aviendha's offspring, what makes the other three so special?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Luck is a horse to ride like any other<br /><br />StaffWielder@wotmania.com</font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-22 03:16:43
subject: <b>Not pregnant</b>
body:
I don't think that Aviendha is with child. Everyone knew almost instantly that Elayne had been impregnated. Also I think she would be showing too much to hide it now. If you have not read all the books you may not know this and sorry for the spoiler.


created: 2005-12-12 08:11:48
subject: <b>babies!</b>
body:
I agree with your theory, it makes lots of sense.  I had just been wondering if maybe Elayne's offspring could end up being heroes from the past...I do recall thinking Aviendha was pregnant, but since there is no word of it(that I recall) I'll keep waiting for more information.


created: 2006-04-07 08:33:08
subject: <b>My theory on Gaidal Cain so far</b>
body:
I think that maybe Jaril or Seve the orphans who were supposed to be Moghedians children in salidar may be Gaidal as there around right age and i dont recall any other children being given names by RJ howver this is mere conjecture and not based on much fact.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Far ayende far shain e far daishar <br />Birgitte Rules!!! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/birgitte.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-02 16:22:25
subject: <b>Impossible Due to Time</b>
body:
Olver cannot possibly be Gaidal Cain due to age. He may be a ugly little kid, but Gaidal was seen to late in the series and Olver is just to plain old to be him. He may be another hero though, ranging from Rogosh to Hawking, maybe even the crazy dude in the black mask who will &quot;Herald the end of Ages&quot;<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">The Hammer of the Light,<br /><br />By The Grace of the Light,<br /><br />High King of the World,<br /><br />Lord of the Six Gates,<br /><br />Master of the Winds,<br /><br />Artur Hawking</font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-26 10:38:56
subject: <b>Hehehe, I can see Olver wearing a mask.</b>
body:
He is suggested to be ugly, so why not wear a mask.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-01-29 20:43:29
subject: <b>Maybe, but...</b>
body:
Olver seems to be the most likely candidate (now) for Gaidal Cain.  As was mentioned before, the ugliness, he's good w/ horses, etc.  But also, it's right that he is too young.  Cain was seen in Tel'Aran'rhiod in some books, but Olver had to be 4? 5? in tEotW.  But then, maybe the Creator made an exception w/ Olver.  Hey, the DO made the 'gars, maybe the Creator put Cain into a child's body.  Though why he would do that (Birgitte seemed to think he was born normally, and nothing to go against that), I have no idea.  <br />Suggestions?


created: 2002-05-14 22:53:54
subject: <b>Others</b>
body:
That is quite possible, but Gaidal Cain could also be Aram. He is great with a sword, and his love of fighting is strange for a Tinker<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" />


created: 2003-01-13 21:25:00
subject: <b>Yes</b>
body:
Noxlip has it right.  In one, or more,  of the books (so many, forget which one) it's mentioned that time acts really, really weird in the World of Dreams.


created: 2003-02-26 12:20:20
subject: <b>Er...</b>
body:
<i>That is quite possible, but Gaidal Cain could also be Aram. He is great with a sword, and his love of fighting is strange for a Tinker</i> - Lord Slaanesh<br /><br />Nope.  Aram has been described as good looking, which Gaidal <b>is not</b>.<br /><br />Olver doesn't look too likely for Gaidal either, he's too old.  Birgitte told Elayne that Gaidal has recently turned up missing at one time in a TAR visit, and this wasn't four years prior to meeting Olver (in Elayne's time).


created: 2001-11-12 13:24:05
subject: <b>Thats right</b>
body:
I also remember Birgitte stating that he(Gaidal) always hated her in the beginning.<br />One thing I think will be interesting is the fact that now Birgitte was spun out as an adult when Gaidal is a boy, while usually she was spun out a little while after him.<br /><br />Looking forward to book 10....<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-01-31 16:38:32
subject: <b>I don't think so...</b>
body:
If you'll remember it was only a short time before Brigitte was torn out of Tel'aran'rhiod that Gaidal Cain was spun out. Now by counting and using logic Gaidal Cain would have to be no older than two years old. So through this logic Olver can't possibly be Gaidal Cain.


created: 2002-04-07 19:06:54
subject: <b>Olver-Gaidal... why I don't like it, and who I choose.</b>
body:
I have read some of the posts concerning this connection, and I have to admit, it does make one stop and think. However, Jordan has a tendency to 'pair' up his main characters in relatively romantic ways. The Olver-Gaidal connection presents several obvious problems to how Jordan runs his series:<br /><br />1) Gaidal Cain is a hero for the wheel, and thus heroes are spun out when they are most needed. However, unless Olver sacrifices himself in order to save Birgitte, I do not see how he could mature in enough time to take part in the events that are happening. Would Gaidal Cain be spun out and mature as a 8 yr. old boy while the Dragon Reborn is running loose in the world? I do not think Jordan plans on stretching Rand's battle out until Olver grows up to 'fulfill' his destiny as the wheel would demand of Gaidal Cain. That is a point against Olver<br /><br />2) Seeing as how Jordan is following a rather romantic view of attachments, pairing up main and sub-main characters, and since the Birgitte-Gaidal connection is one of the strongest romantic histories of the wheel, WHY would Jordan make it so that Birgitte would look towards Gaidal as a mother to a son, rather than promoting the love affair? Again, it would take the story to stretch until many years, for Olver to mature a LITTLE at least, before Jordan could even conceivably arrange the two as 'romantically' involved. Birgitte has suffered considerably enough as it is, and despite Moggy's warning about 'weeping for eternity' I still doubt Jordan fulfilling that prophecy, especially for someone so beloved and held in awe. Another point against Olver.<br /><br />3) Jordan likes to play against type, for the most part. With some characters, such as Elayne and Rand, their physical attraction is meant to convey historical connection (Rand/Lews and Elayne/what's-her-name-I-forget) but Mat and Tuon are mismatched, so are Perrin and Faile, Siuan and Gareth, even Rand and Min (Min, earlier, states that the sheepherder is not her type.) So not every romantic attachment follows 'historical' precedence. Again, one has to take Birgitte's behavior into context. Her memories of Gaidal Cain are of an 'ugly' man, so she finds ugly men attractive. Olver, because he is so ugly, reminds her of Gaidal, thus she has an attachment to him. This does not indicate that Olver is Gaidal, just that he REMINDS her of Gaidal. Again, nothing conclusive.<br /><br />4) For a long time, I had a different theory in mind. Part of it comes into play because of Jordan playing character's against type. Part of it is because Gaidal is so renowed for his swordwork. I find it hard pressed to see Olver picking up a sword, although it is not unlikely. My theory, based upon the opposite expectation theory, revolves around Galad. As with most theories, the biggest stumbling block is to get past the 'born again' dating, along with Gaidal's appearance at Falme. I find it quite believeable that Gaidal can occupy a body while 'awake' and roam Telarhiond while asleep. However, I cannot find much evidence to state whether or not Birgitte has ever met Galad. Given the understanding that the two would 'recognise' each other, I honestly have to state that I dont think Bigitte has met Gaidal yet.<br /><br />5) Galad intrigues me more as Gaidal for a number of other reasons. The name proximity is quite interesting, for one. The second is Galad's insistence on 'following the rules' no matter who it hurts (remember Gaidal cautioning Birgitte about breaking the rules?) Third, Galad is incredibly talented when it comes to the sword, and whose only defeat, so far, has come at the hands of Mat. Fourth, let us not take Birgitte's assesement of Gaidal too seriously. Birgitte is the 'flighty' one, since she is the one who took risks to help out Nyaeve, therefore she provides the adventure to Gaidal's caution, and he provides stability to support her flights of fancy. Gaidal, in addition, sounds alot like Lan, a stuffy stodgy guy whose rough exterior is only breached by a woman he loves. Galad, so far as it is known, loves no one, and only his sister can make him go against his 'better judgement' (he procured a ship for her in Ebou Dar or Tanchico, I forget which, at the cost of fighting the Prophet.) Galad, up to this point, however talented he is with a sword, is otherwise quite robotic and unemotional. And, seeing how handsome he is, would prove QUITE a blow to Birgitte, much in the same way Tuon went against Mat's expectations.<br /><br />Birgitte would play quite nicely against the stodgy Galad, and so far, that is my best guess. And with Elayne back in Camelyn, if Gawyn is forced, or chooses, to go with Egewyn as her Warder, he cannot be in both places. Thus, Galad, and Birgitte, will be co-captains of the Sword. And, I dont know about anyone else, but the thought of Birgitte and Galad leading my army would make me feel ALOT better, since Galad is sooo much better than Gawayn anyway. BIG point for Galad.


created: 2002-04-16 18:01:42
subject: <b>I just doubt it!</b>
body:
I also remember Birgitte saying that Gaidal Cain disliked her at first.  And yes, Olver fits the bill.<br /><br />BUT there is that little age problem!  Although we can debate how time travel may be possible through tel'aran'rhiod (for instance, the theory of how Lanfear may have traveled through time to kill Asmodean), I respect RJ's great love of hinting and foreshadowing.  He's not the type of writer who would throw &quot;IT WAS TIME TRAVEL!&quot; at the readers without even a hint of it beforehand.<br /><br />Birgitte does need a partner, which means she needs Gaidal Cain.  And I recall her saying (after being ripped out of the Wheel) that she hadn't seen Gaidal Cain in awhile.  This indicates that he was born already.  I am tempted to think &quot;Uno.&quot;  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/birgitte.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-04-19 05:18:05
subject: <b>Galad as Gaidal? Nay</b>
body:
Khnopff made a number of points above as to why he thinks Gaidal Cain may be Galad.  I would simply like to pick apart the few I find fallable.<br /><br />First: Galad fights with a sword.  Gaidal Cain fights with two swords.  Always.  There is a huge difference there, and one can really not be interchanged with the other.<br /><br />Second: Gaidal is always ugly.  While it may be an amusing twist to see him end up as a pretty boy this time, it seems that the heroes retain certain characteristics throughout all of their lives, and this is one of Gaidal's.<br /><br />Third: Galad loves Egwene, or at the very least says he does.  He does not love no one but his sister.<br /><br />Fourth: I don't buy Gaidal inhabiting the body of Galad while awake and wandering the world of dreams while asleep.  First of all, Birgette has been through this many times before; I'm sure she would have mentioned if, after being spun out, she still was in the dream world for a time.  She seems to know right about when Gaidal has been spun out, and mentions it as being when she can no longer find him in the world of dreams.<br /><br />Five: When Birgette notices that Gaidal is gone, she says something to the effect of &quot;He is out there in the world now, as a baby or a young boy.&quot;  Again, she knows how this works, and she never mentions the possibility that he could be in a full grown body.  While some may think this quote allows for him to be Olver, I think you would have to stretch it a lot for it to apply for to a man of 20 or so.<br /><br />Side points: Birgette has indeed never met Galad.


created: 2002-04-23 18:25:04
subject: <b>Olver is Cain? maybe...</b>
body:
Chapter 52 of Shadow Rising, Birgitte says of Cain, &quot;He is usually born well before me--so I know my time approaches again when I cannot find him--and I usually hate him at first sight in the flesh.&quot;  In her last life, Lanfear promised &quot;to make me weep alone for as long as the Wheel turns.&quot;  Then in Fires of Heaven, Chapter 14, when Birgitte says that Gaidal Cain has been spun out by the Wheel, there's a paragraph about how that means that he's an infant in the real world, and Birgitte says she could be spun out in days, weeks, or years.  There is no indication at all that Gaidal could have been born <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smackhead.gif" border="0" />10 years before he was spun out...so I don't think he could be Olver based on the time difference.  Otherwise I think Jordan would have foreshadowed it at least a little.


created: 2007-06-17 13:23:44
subject: <b>Yes</b>
body:
&quot;1) Gaidal Cain is a hero for the wheel, and thus heroes are spun out when they are most needed. However, unless Olver sacrifices himself in order to save Birgitte, I do not see how he could mature in enough time to take part in the events that are happening. Would Gaidal Cain be spun out and mature as a 8 yr. old boy while the Dragon Reborn is running loose in the world? I do not think Jordan plans on stretching Rand's battle out until Olver grows up to 'fulfill' his destiny as the wheel would demand of Gaidal Cain. That is a point against Olver&quot;<br /><br />I think this is irrelevant because Birgitte has often mentioned that herself and Gaidal played a part in the founding of the White Tower. Olver is being raised by the Band, and being so close to Matt will probably develop strong leadership qualities.<br /><br />Gaidal being well trained in the sword has also been mentioned. Olver is 9 years old in KoD, and is growing up with soldiers for &quot;uncles&quot;. To think that he would never touch a sword is slightly ludacris


created: 2002-06-26 00:35:30
subject: <b>interesting</b>
body:
i just thought it was sad that this had been here for over a YEAR and no one had commented.<br /><br />i always thought that Gaidal Cain was Oliver and just chalked up the timeline problems to one more of Robert Jordan's little mistakes, like Perrin's insta-sisters.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> Choosin' to be Chosen <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-29 04:40:50
subject: <b>Hmm......</b>
body:
Interesting theory. I seem to remember a reference to Birgitte being fond of ugly men. &quot;The uglier the better&quot;<br />From Olver's description I don't think he fits the bill. But maybe so. I wonder if Birgitte would recognize Gaidal. I think she would considering that this time she is in full possession of all of her past memories. Hmm.....


created: 2002-01-07 13:42:31
subject: <b>ahhhhhh, but...</b>
body:
as we can see, she is losing all of her past lives and is quickly becoming just one woman, one lifetime...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Can you see the line where the water ends?<br />Draws itself off into oblivion...</font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-15 17:33:03
subject: <b>she won't recognize him.</b>
body:
the hero's probably look different each time they are spun out. at least LTT never was described as looking like rand, and i think lanfear commented that he looked completely different.


created: 2002-10-14 11:05:48
subject: <b>Nah, Olver's a baddie</b>
body:
I swear I think Olver's one of the Forsaken re-embodied.  Who'd suspect a child? What an easy way to sneak up on a taveren and get close to him.  He acts like a little sneak all the time anyway, and remember his grown-up tastes when it came to his buxom tutor in the palace in... jeez, I can't remember the name of the town now. Too long between books. You know the one I'm talking about, the one with the Rahad and the marriage knives and lemonade and all. Anyway, that Olver's a rotten egg, I say.  He's going to stab Matt in the back (or maybe the eye!).<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Eric, the inkeeper whose girth strains his apron</font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-30 10:37:23
subject: <b>Rebirthing theory</b>
body:
Every one seems to think that being reborn means always the same as literally being born.<br />It's also possible that heroes are being &quot;made&quot; by events.<br />I mean that the people evolve into a heroes and when they are ready hero in question disappiers from the world of dreams.<br />Remember that birgitte has mentioned that she couldn't remember her past lives until she died again.<br /><br />Very deep throats


created: 2001-03-29 00:00:00
subject: <b>Agelessness</b>
body:
Correct me if I'm wrong, which I very well could be, but I thought that the ageless appearance of the Aes Sedai had to do with the use of the One Power.  At least that is what I was lead to believe throughout the books.  While Egwene, Nynaeve, and Elayne were pretending to be Aes Sedai in The Shadow Rising and The Fires of Heaven, I remember several people (Rand, Mat) thinking that Egwene was starting to resemble Moiraine in that way.  Egwene had not used the Oath Rod, so it would have to be a result of channeling.  But then again, maybe the boys were just trippin'.<p>In the name of love, <br />Arien<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Arien <br /><br /><i><font color='blue" size="2'>nobody said it was easy/nobody said it would be this hard</font></i></font></p><p></p>


