# w_comment

created: 2003-08-28 11:13:56
subject: <b>More responses</b>
body:
Etzel:<br /><b>You say that Mat will be humilated and forced by the Seanchan or Tuon to serve. <br />But wouldn't that change Mat's character too much? <br />One of the most beloved characters of the WoT (especially since he is so headstrong) would become a pet. <br />Not very likely in my eyes. </b><br /><br />I think that's the biggest problem is people don't <i>want</i> to see this happen to Mat.  I never said Mat would be her slave for long.  I think she will do it just to teach him that she is in charge.  And to me Mat has become comic relief because his character hasn't changed all that much (only person who's changed less in my mind is Elayne and don't like her either).  Mat is due for a change, and spending a short time as a slave might do that.<br /><br /><b>Hu? Marriage is always mutual! </b><br /><br />Not the case.  According to Texas common law Mat is married to Tuon but Tuon is not married to Mat (only valid in Texas).  I was mainly arguing that the Finn said they would marry each other (which they didn't), and that it is possible that Mat fulfilled their statement by completing his half of the ceremony.<br /><br />I should have stated clearly that I believed Tuon would complete the ceremony eventually.<br /><br /><b>Well, I think the High Blood can only marry High Blood. It's quite normal that in a society like the Seanchan nobleborn don't marry common people, less than ever da'covale.</b><br /><br />This has been the case in a lot of kingdoms in the RW, but it still happened that a King would marry a peasant.  RJ could also say that since Mat completed his part of the ceremony before being made da'covale (far-fetched, I don't believe he will).  <br /><br />Like I said, I don't think it will matter one lick to Tuon.  She knows she will marry him, but she has to tame him first.<br /><br /><b>And if you think that Tuon will break with all old customs why should she then keep the custom of da'covale especially for her own man whom she loves?</b><br /><br />I don't think she will.  She's not in charge yet and she needs to keep him from being killed.  As you said according to Seanchen customs she can't marry him now because he isn't High Blood.  The only way to save him is going to be to demand him as property.  When she separates from the Empire she can marry him.<br /><br /><b>Nevertheless, the dream could also mean Mat's situation when he was Tylin's lover or that he is bound by Tuon since he loves her. </b><br /><br />I've already admitted there are other interpretations (as there are for nearly every viewing/dream/foretelling/prophecy.  Glad you agree that my interpretation is possible though.<br /><br /><b>The dream is in CoT, ch.20, pg.492. <br />You are right it doesn't say that the men are Seanchan; I confused it somehow. </b><br /><br />Cool, I want to check that reference anyway though.<br /><br />Jofraz:<br /><b>Would also like to say, if Mat were indeed humiliated publically {being naked and bound}, it would be of very short order, until Tuon sets him free. This could be perfect opportunity for her to say &quot;he is my husband&quot; three times.</b><br /><br />Like Etzel says, from what we know/infer about Seanchan society she can't marry him because he is not High Blood.  Since the Deathwatch wants to kill him the only way to save him will be to demand him as property.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Fyatuk Loth<br />Pope Consort to Grand Mistress Krista Sedai<br />Minister to the Way of What<br />Warder to Egwene Dreamwalker (donate WSe please)<br /><br />Currently stalking Belals Girl.<br /><br />WTF?</font><p></p>


created: 2003-08-28 13:02:28
subject: <b>Well done!</b>
body:
So obvious &amp; we missed it! Good job!<br /><br />To the detractors/unswayed:<br /><br />Firstly, the Death Watch Guard are <b>not</b> a police force for the Seanchan Empire, they are an elite military formation. The Listeners &amp; the , well whatever that fellow that stalked Eganin &amp; talked with Kadere was, are the secret police. Remember, Kadere, as a captain of the Death Watch Guard, simply skewered the regular army commander who had blundered so badly in the opening of Rand's roll-up of Seanchan outposts/long range patrols. Then, he calmly took command, and no one said anything else.<br /><br />Secondly, Perrin's Dream. This was reported from <b>his</b> POV. Perrin knew it for the wolf dream. He didn't know that Dreamers saw glimpses of now &amp; the future in t'a'r, didn't know that he was in t'a'r, and didn't attach much significance to it. This could (and does in my opinion) explain why he didn't pin any importance to it, at least not enough to mull it over later in another POV.<br /><br />I know there were a few others I wanted to respond to, but I'll have to go find them &amp; post again.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;These guys are special... These are crack soldiers... They are everywhere&#8230;yes, they really have us by our balls here&#8230; Can you get us out of here?&#8221;<br />Zarqawi about 3/504 PIR</font><p></p>


created: 2003-08-28 13:13:28
subject: <b>Re:</b>
body:
<b> I think that's the biggest problem is people don't want to see this happen to Mat. I never said Mat would be her slave for long. I think she will do it just to teach him that she is in charge. And to me Mat has become comic relief because his character hasn't changed all that much (only person who's changed less in my mind is Elayne and don't like her either). Mat is due for a change, and spending a short time as a slave might do that. </b><br /><br />Well, I believe Mat has changed, is grown up, if you compare him to the boy in EotW.<br /><br />Anyway, I'm a bit confused. <br />On the one hand you say that Mat has a rough time ahead: Tuon will tame him, he will serve as a cupbearer and later become a general of the DWG (who are always property), so his personality will change through this process. <br /><br />On the other hand you say that he will be a slave only a short time. <br /><br />Will Mat change so much and forget his desire for freedom in only a short time without force? Not likely at all.<br /><br />So unless the Seanchan use nasty torture to break Mat (like they do with Damane), he won't really change. <br /><br />But you also say that Tuon makes Mat mainly to her property to save his life (since Tuon knows she will marry him &amp; starts to love him; that's quite obvious). <br /><br />So it's unlikely that Tuon would allow to break Mat, change the character she fall in love with, and then marries him later. <br /><br />(besides, note that we ignore the whole time everything what will happen with Rand, Suroth and Semirhage though it could influence everything Tuon wants to do with Mat)  <br /><br /><b> Not the case. According to Texas common law Mat is married to Tuon but Tuon is not married to Mat (only valid in Texas). I was mainly arguing that the Finn said they would marry each other (which they didn't), and that it is possible that Mat fulfilled their statement by completing his half of the ceremony.<br /><br />I should have stated clearly that I believed Tuon would complete the ceremony eventually. </b><br /><br />I've already heard that there are odd laws in the USA but that can't be true, or? <br />I can't believe that a man can perform the ceremony to marry a woman, and then he is married to the woman even if the she doesn't want it later and so doesn't become his wife. <br />That means the man is married and the woman not?<br />That's totally weird! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/oh.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Anyway, we learn in CoT that according to <i> Seanchan law </i> they are only married if the woman agrees three time before witnesses. <br />So Mat isn't married to Tuon yet.<br /><br /><b> This has been the case in a lot of kingdoms in the RW, but it still happened that a King would marry a peasant. RJ could also say that since Mat completed his part of the ceremony before being made da'covale (far-fetched, I don't believe he will). <br /><br />Like I said, I don't think it will matter one lick to Tuon. She knows she will marry him, but she has to tame him first. </b><br /><br />I think that Tuon could marry Mat now, even if he is not from High Blood (you can be promoted to the blood, e.g. Tuon promoted Tylin). <br />But I don't think that you are allowed to marry your property as one of the blood. That seems too kinky.<br /><br />Maybe Tuon doesn't really admit to herself that she loves Mat. <br />We see that she was angry about the foretelling which certainly was about her future husband Mat.<br />So maybe she thinks, 'if I make him my da'covale I can't marry him then the foretelling doesn't come true.' <br />But since we know that they <b> will </b> marry, Mat won't stay property, e.g. as DWG General, a long time. <br /><br />(besides, Mat will probably be needed to meet Perrin &amp; rescue Moiraine soon...).<br /><br /><b> I don't think she will. She's not in charge yet and she needs to keep him from being killed. As you said according to Seanchen customs she can't marry him now because he isn't High Blood. The only way to save him is going to be to demand him as property. When she separates from the Empire she can marry him. </b><br /><br />But that doesn't mean that Mat will be such a long time her slave that he finally becomes the Commander of the DWG. <br /><br /><b> I've already admitted there are other interpretations (as there are for nearly every viewing/dream/foretelling/prophecy. Glad you agree that my interpretation is possible though. </b><br /><br />In my opinion it's possible that the Deathwatch Guards bound &amp; humiliate Mat as we see in the dream and even tattoo him (though I think the two ravens are symbolical for the Seanchan who are a problem for Mat). <br /><br />But Mat will be quickly free again, he won't be tamed, serve as a cupbearer and then as a DWG General. <br /><br /><b> Cool, I want to check that reference anyway though. </b><br /><br />No problem. It's still possible that these men are Seanchan though.


created: 2003-08-28 14:28:22
subject: <b>To marry or not to marry</b>
body:
Interesting theory. Only one problem: How does Tuon's apparent ability to learn how to channel fit into it? By implication, she is marath'damane, thereby worse than da'covale. If Mat is caught by the Seanchan, Tuon would be in danger of her freedom, and status, if not for her life. Therefore, it is in her interest to keep running away from the Seanchan so that she could figure out what to do about her status within the Empire. I agree with the sentiment that those of the High Blood do not marry da'covale. Furthermore, once Tuon finally marries Mat and the Empress, may she live forever, dies, it is more than enough punishment for Mat to be a Royal Consort to the Empress of a very hierarchy-conscious empire without adding the horror of being property and a mere cupbearer. The stress of keeping the Empire together through the strife of the sul'dam revelation at the same time as helping with the effects of Tarmon Gai'don would age him rather quickly (just look at how fast American presidents age in their short terms <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> ).<br /><br />Etzel, I remember Tuon saying that her father died from losing a major gamble. I get the feeling that her father was not da'covale at all and that the gamble was his attempt to possess the Crystal Throne for himself.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Gaeran Amaconde<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />Grand Historian at the Court of the Sun<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />One of Those Chosen to Bring the Light<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" />Master of Graendal's Revels<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" />&quot;If sometimes our dreams come true, what of our nightmares?&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-08-28 15:49:17
subject: <b>I think everyone is forgetting something...</b>
body:
What about the Band.  The Band of the Red Hand is tied to Mat by more than mearly Loyalty earned through battle.  They are caught up in Mat's Ta'varen spinning of the web.  Talmanes says to Egwene that many in the Band have felt Mat pulling at them.<br /><br />I believe that the Band must play a roll in Mat's fate.  Which would be near impossible if he became commander of the Deathwatch or any other sort of Sanchen Servant.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> The Dancing Joker <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br />  Newbie Extraordinare


created: 2003-08-28 16:22:22
subject: <b>Filling in the details...</b>
body:
I'm going to do this from scratch because I noticed I was starting to get incoherent in my replies...<br /><br />First what I've noticed people say the major problems are really 2 things:  Tuon can't marry da'covale and Mat wouldn't get captured/made a slave/stay a slave.  I'm dropping the Finn statements and Perrin's dream (i've admitted perrin's dream could be something else and several have said mine is possible as well so why argue over it).<br /><br />1) Mat wouldn't get captured/made a slave/stay a slave.<br /><br />a) captured-<br /><br />I think I've given ample evidence to say he could get captured.  The opportunity is there and he's due (being pretty much the only major character to not be captured at some point).  He's not going to leave Tuon not that he knows who she is so its not like he's going to run away.  The DWG is trailing them and they are still close to patrol routes etc.  I think the opportunity combined with some of the quotes mentioned in the books and him being the only person not to have been leads to him being captured.<br /><br />b) made a slave-<br /><br />As Etzel said, Death and Shame.  That's pretty much what the DWG have planned for Mat (or at least Tuon's kidnapper since they don't know its Mat).  Most people have accepted the foretelling Tuon punished the damane for was Mat becoming her husband.  We know beyond any doubt she is interested in him at least.  I think its quite likely she would demand him as da'covale to save his life.  Its not that far of a stretch from Egeannin buying Bayle Domon (though that was only to keep from being separated).  This really isn't much of a stretch.<br /><br />c) Stay a slave-<br /><br />Here its been latched onto that he wouldn't like being a slave and they'd have to break him through torture.  I don't think this is the case.  We've seen very few circumstances of Seanchan treating their slaves badly.  Like I said, I think Tuon would make him do the cupbearer thing just to prove to him she could.  She wants him to know she is in charge.  After that she sends him off to command the DWG (or wherever if you don't want to deal with the DWG).  Even though he would technically be a slave, after the first day or two when Tuon is over teaching him his lesson it wouldn't be any real different than his normal life.  Run around, order troops, drink and play dice.  Only difference is I'm sure he wouldn't be allowed to dally any barmaids on his knee...<br /><br />If by this time Rand and the Seanchen are allies (I believe they will be) he has no reason to run off.  If he runs off he loses Tuon (which we've already seen he doesn't want to do), but if he stays he doesn't really lose Rand (since they would be allies).<br /><br />2) Tuon wouldn't/couldn't marry da'covale<br /><br />I really never saw why she wouldn't.  Yes its either illegal or not readily accepted (I think its just looked down on.  They mention that at least for sleeping with da'covale), but we've seen how obsessed she is with omens.  If an omen told her to do it she would without any doubt.<br /><br />I also don't think its actually illegal for someone to marry da'covale, I just think it's considered taboo.  We also know it is legal (and still taboo) to marry freed da'covale.  There's no reason why after she had her fun she wouldn't free him and then she can be free to raise him to the Blood and marry him (if that's how she'd do it otherwise).  I know I know, that would remove him from commanding the DWG.<br /><br />But here's what I think is the most likely to happen:<br /><br />I think Mat gets captured and Tuon claims him as da'covale to save his life.  I think part of Rand's truce/peace treaty with the Seanchen will be granting them the lands they already hold (plus maybe Tear, Illian, and Mayene, but that's a strong maybe), but in return he'll demand the damane be freed and explain that suldam can channel.  Tuon will agree to it since she herself is suldam.  However it will cause a big disturbance if you declare some property free without granting it to others so she'll also declare the da'covale free.  Empress will have a fit and Tuon will secede.  By then Mat should have served his term as cupbearer and already been tattooed and sent to the DWG.  That leaves the outcome of my theory standing and still allows her to marry him.  I have no real evidence for that particular series of events which is why it wasn't included in the theory.<br /><br />I hope that cleared up my thoughts...<br /><br />On a side note:  About Mat changing.  Yes he has changed, but I think he has changed a lesser amount than Rand or even Perrin so far.  He is still the kid who wants to drink and gamble and play pranks all day, he's just accepted some responsibility.  I think Tuon is going to &quot;grow him up&quot; some to make him a suitable husband while he is da'covale.<br /><br />about rescuing moiraine:  I don't think Mat will be a part of that.  Since everyone else is under Tuon's protection (well mostly we don't know who else isn't) I think Olver &amp; Thom will continue traveling with the show and meet up with Perrin.  Its either that or Perrin will get down to Ebou Dar to help out with Rand's rescue and run into Mat there.  <br /><br />(another side note...  Why didn't Perrin send one of the Asha'man to Rand and let him know he found the Shaido and they captured Faile and the Queen?  Then Rand and an army could show up, decimate the Shaido and find Morgase safe and sound while rescuing Faile and the other Queen...  That should probably be asked on the MB but I thought of it here...  damn lack of communication between characters.)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Fyatuk Loth<br />Pope Consort to Grand Mistress Krista Sedai<br />Minister to the Way of What<br />Warder to Egwene Dreamwalker (donate WSe please)<br /><br />Currently stalking Belals Girl.<br /><br />WTF?</font><p></p>


created: 2003-08-28 17:52:35
subject:
<b>It sounds much more coherent now!  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /></b>

body:
Now I think you could be right in mayn things. Good work! <br />A few comments.<br /><br /><b> I think I've given ample evidence to say he could get captured. The opportunity is there and he's due (being pretty much the only major character to not be captured at some point). He's not going to leave Tuon not that he knows who she is so its not like he's going to run away. The DWG is trailing them and they are still close to patrol routes etc. I think the opportunity combined with some of the quotes mentioned in the books and him being the only person not to have been leads to him being captured. </b><br /><br />Yes, it's indeed possible. <br />But I think in this case Mat will try to flee but is is then captured in the style of the dream, bound and naked.<br /><br /><b> As Etzel said, Death and Shame. That's pretty much what the DWG have planned for Mat (or at least Tuon's kidnapper since they don't know its Mat). Most people have accepted the foretelling Tuon punished the damane for was Mat becoming her husband. We know beyond any doubt she is interested in him at least. I think its quite likely she would demand him as da'covale to save his life. Its not that far of a stretch from Egeannin buying Bayle Domon (though that was only to keep from being separated). This really isn't much of a stretch. </b><br /><br />Also possible. <br />But does Tuon need to demand Mat as her property? Why can't the Throne Heir simply tell the DWG not to kill Mat?<br />Ok, you say she will tame him a bit...<br /><br /><b> Here its been latched onto that he wouldn't like being a slave and they'd have to break him through torture. I don't think this is the case. We've seen very few circumstances of Seanchan treating their slaves badly. Like I said, I think Tuon would make him do the cupbearer thing just to prove to him she could. She wants him to know she is in charge. After that she sends him off to command the DWG (or wherever if you don't want to deal with the DWG). Even though he would technically be a slave, after the first day or two when Tuon is over teaching him his lesson it wouldn't be any real different than his normal life. Run around, order troops, drink and play dice. Only difference is I'm sure he wouldn't be allowed to dally any barmaids on his knee... <br /><br />If by this time Rand and the Seanchen are allies (I believe they will be) he has no reason to run off. If he runs off he loses Tuon (which we've already seen he doesn't want to do), but if he stays he doesn't really lose Rand (since they would be allies). </b><br /><br />The problem is that the Seanchan accept being da'covale and even think it's an honor.<br />But not a normal Randlander like Mat. <br />What will they do if Mat refuses to serve as a cupbearer? Mat should know that they won't kill him since he will marry Tuon.<br />Of course it could be that Tuon says to Mat that if he wants to live he must play the slave and Mat resigns.<br /><br />In any case, Mat and Tuon must spend more time together so that they can truly fall in love!<br /><br />As a cupbearer Mat won't be very pleased. <br />If Tuon sends him then to command the DWG they won't see each other very often.<br /><br />So my idea is that the cupbearer Mat rescues Tuon in a gholam attack in which maybe Tuon's old bodyguard Selucia is killed.<br /><br />That would give the opportunity to <i> really </i> fall in love (<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />) and reward Mat with becoming a DWG. <br /><br />Then it could be that Mat not becomes the commander of the DWG (since then they can't spend much time with each other) but becomes Tuon's new body guard. <br /><br />So he will later be present in army matters and can use his superior tactical knowledge, too. <br /><br />Besides, I also think that Rand will kill or drive away Suroth &amp; Semirhage and take control of the Seanchan. <br />Maybe then he will even suggest Mat to stay with Tuon to control her a bit and provide the Seanchan army with bombs and grenades.<br />So Mat will be virtually the Commander of the Seanchan.<br /><br />As a sidenote,<br />Noal's recitation of the Prophecies of the Dragon (CoT, ch.28, pg.616):<br /><br />&quot;Fortune rides like the sun on high<br />with the fox that makes the ravens fly.<br />Luck his soul, the lightning his eye, <br />He snatches the moons from out of the sky.&quot;<br /><br />Maybe the &quot;fox that makes the ravens fly&quot; means not that Seanchan pursue Mat but that Mat will command the Seanchan.<br /><br />BTW, I think it's the first of the Prophecies of the Dragon which isn't apparently about Rand but about one of the other ta'veren.<br /><br /><b> I really never saw why she wouldn't. Yes its either illegal or not readily accepted (I think its just looked down on. They mention that at least for sleeping with da'covale), but we've seen how obsessed she is with omens. If an omen told her to do it she would without any doubt.<br /><br />I also don't think its actually illegal for someone to marry da'covale, I just think it's considered taboo. We also know it is legal (and still taboo) to marry freed da'covale. There's no reason why after she had her fun she wouldn't free him and then she can be free to raise him to the Blood and marry him (if that's how she'd do it otherwise). I know I know, that would remove him from commanding the DWG. </b><br /><br />I think like you she will free Mat in this case together with the damane and all other da'covale and then they will marry.<br /><br />But to the omen. The omen surely wasn't that Tuon <i> had to </i> marry a da'covale.<br /><br />The damane rather told Tuon that she <i> will </i> marry a Randlander, probably with some description of Mat or his property (the ring or the ashandarei). <br /><br />We see that Tuon doesn't follow an omen without doubt, otherwise she had already married Mat.<br /><br /><b> On a side note: About Mat changing. Yes he has changed, but I think he has changed a lesser amount than Rand or even Perrin so far. He is still the kid who wants to drink and gamble and play pranks all day, he's just accepted some responsibility. I think Tuon is going to &quot;grow him up&quot; some to make him a suitable husband while he is da'covale. </b><br /><br />Don't think Mat will be da'covale so long... <br />Anyway Mat will be a great husband, he is already a good surrogate father for Olver. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br /><b> about rescuing moiraine: I don't think Mat will be a part of that. Since everyone else is under Tuon's protection (well mostly we don't know who else isn't) I think Olver &amp; Thom will continue traveling with the show and meet up with Perrin. Its either that or Perrin will get down to Ebou Dar to help out with Rand's rescue and run into Mat there. </b><br /><br />Well, Mat &amp; the rest (Thom, Olver) who seem to be important for the Moiraine rescue could, if they go with Mat, get very soon access to many people who can make gateways in Rand's party. And I think Mat's friends are not under protection.<br />And note that Luca even wants to go to Seanchan now. <br />Maybe they will visit Perrin and then rescue Moiraine via gateways.<br /><br />The only problem is how Mat will give up half the light of the world to save the world (probably lose his eye or betrayal Tuon)? <br />The Finn indicate it will happen <i> after </i> Mat married Tuon in any case...<br /><br /><b> (another side note... Why didn't Perrin send one of the Asha'man to Rand and let him know he found the Shaido and they captured Faile and the Queen? Then Rand and an army could show up, decimate the Shaido and find Morgase safe and sound while rescuing Faile and the other Queen... That should probably be asked on the MB but I thought of it here... damn lack of communication between characters.) </b><br /><br />Perrin doesn't know where Rand is and doesn't want to lose an Asha'man in this situation.<br />


created: 2003-08-28 18:06:11
subject: <b>egwene's dream</b>
body:
as I said, not all dreams are of the future.  I was being lazy, so didnt site Egwene's dream in my original post, and it has, in my opinion, allready been explained away by other posters, but allow me to throw my opinion in.<br /><br />&quot;...two ravens alighted on his (Mat's) shoulders, talons sinking through his coat and into the flesh beneath.&quot; (Egwene's Dream, LoC, A Pile of Sand)<br /><br />the two ravens could be symbolic of the staff he attained, and the talons sinking could be the pain that was required to attain it.<br /><br />kazadorm<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Of all that is written, I love only that which is written in blood.  Write with blood, and you will discover that blood is spirit.<br /><br />It is not easy to understand the blood of another.  I hate the reading idler.  -Nietzsche</font><p></p>


created: 2003-08-28 18:19:50
subject: <b>Perrin's Dream</b>
body:
&quot;Mat stood naked and bound, snarling; an odd spear with a black shaft had been thrust across his back behind his elbows, and a silver medallion, a foxhead, hung on his chest.&quot; (Perrin's Dream, tSR, The Price of a Departure)<br /><br />First of all, I somehow doubt that anyone with a decent brain in their head would leave a weapon that close to a prisoner.  Also, if they took the rest of his clothes, wouldn't they take his medallion?<br /><br />I agree with someone up farther there, this is Mat struggling against Ta'veren and struggling against Rand.  Mat is immature especially around TSR.  This is his defining characteristic.  He can't accept the responsibility of being bound to Rand, much less the Pattern.  He fights and fights but the pattern fights back and makes him do what it needs him to do.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Signed with the Sign that sells!</font><p></p>


created: 2003-08-28 18:49:11
subject: <b>It seems more the way the Shaido treat their fresh captured gaishan</b>
body:
There's no way that Mat becomes a seanchan prisoner!!!  He could become a Shaido gaishan in order to help Perrin though.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-08-28 19:08:03
subject: <b>For all of those that seem to think Mat will be a Seanchan General</b>
body:
The Seanchan could be involved, but what of the Red Hand? I truly believe that Mat will be a chief commander General.  The Seanchan soldiers need to follow someone of their own, but Mat could coordinate forces of Agelmar, Rodel Ituralde, Bashere if he doesn't die, Rhuarc and perhaps some other good Generals out there among the non-channelers.  Only Mat could actually bring them together and organize them well to fight the shadow.   Amen!  And Tuon will have to eventually give in to Mat's Ways.  The Two Rivers way is way better than the Seanchan way, at least in this land.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-08-28 22:39:33
subject: <b>Why Perrin didn't send an Ashaman</b>
body:
Rand told him not to. Rand actually specifically told Perrin not to have any contact with him until he had Masema in front of him. Perrin obviously has no brains to question orders when situations change.


created: 2003-08-29 03:23:19
subject: <b>The Dice</b>
body:
This probably won't make any logical sense, but oh well.<br /><br />Mat's dice always start up when some big important event is going to happen or not happen, and it seems like they always lead him onto the right path.  Whenever they stop it's something good.<br /><br />They stopped when he met Setalle Anan who led them to the bowl.  They stopped when the wall fell on him (so he would meet Tuon).   They stopped when he actually met Tuon.  They stopped when he got past the guards inside Ebou Dar - because he wasn't caught.  They stopped when he shook hands with Tuon (because this meant she decided she'd keep her promise not to try to escape, which would likely have meant him getting caught).  They stopped when Renna couldn't make it to the Seanchan, which would've meant him getting caught.  So, getting caught is a bad thing obviously, but I don't think they stopped because he would have died in that event.  I think they stopped because he would've been made da'covale by Tuon.  We know she wants to do that to him.  She wanted to when she didn't know him at all and she still wants to when she's starting to like him.  I don't think Tuon would've let them just kill him.<br /><br />Basically, Mat just needs to escape their notice long enough for Tuon to fall in love with him.  Then it won't matter if they catch up because Tuon won't want to make him a cupbearer/slave anymore.  If they start trying to grab him or whatever, Tuon can just tell them to stop and if they ask why she can say &quot;because he's my husband, my husband, my husband.&quot;   IMO, the warrant is just a hard to get game for her.  She hasn't decided for sure what she thinks of him and doesn't want him to know that she might like him and wants to keep him on his toes.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Wartherded by Phil Reborn<br /><br />CW</font><p></p>


created: 2003-08-29 08:28:24
subject: <b>Dreams and other stuff...</b>
body:
Kazadorm Brightblade:<br /><br />I've already said there are other interpretations for the dreams.  I think mine fit in better with what else has been shown, but there are other interpretations, and no real evidence to show which is correct.<br /><br />Airlance:<br /><br />I've already covered that.  His hands are tied behind his back and his elbows are tied to the spear.  You can't use a weapon like that (exception of maybe Jackie Chan).  It would keep him off-balance and make it so he can't get through tight places easily.  He's wearing the medallion because it shows off who he is.  My guess is if we could have seen his hands we would have seen the signet ring as well.<br /><br />This has been used historically (of course since most times this is mentioned it dates to dark ages it's not entirely accurate) and in literature.  It's a way to embarass your foe, etc.  And again I've already stated there are other valid interpretations to the dreams, but no concrete evidence for which one is right.  My interpretation seems right to me.<br /><br />GameMaster:<br /><br />If Perrin's dream does symbolize capture it could not apply to the Shaido.  Newly captured gaishain are completely naked with no posessions until they put on the white.<br /><br />About the Band:<br /><br />Mat has been trying to deposit the Band into Talmanes's hands from the beginning.  What better time than now?<br /><br />Etzel:<br /><br />Glad I apparently got myself clarrified!  I kinda like your idea about Selucia, that would be kinda cool (especially since there's a Gholam in Ebou Dar that hates Mat eh).<br /><br />And I should have remembered that Prophecy, would have been useful in my theory.  And yes that is the first time we've seen one of the others mentioned, but I don't think it will be the last.  I imagine there's going to be mention of a Wolf of Blacksmith in them somewhere that will be revealed soon.<br /><br />(and Perrin could have easily sent an Asha'man to Carhein or Caemlyn and been able to track Rand or at least get help from Bashere or Legion of the Dragon)<br /><br />Adrian:<br /><br />I forgot that order, thanks.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Fyatuk Loth<br />Pope Consort to Grand Mistress Krista Sedai<br />Minister to the Way of What<br />Warder to Egwene Dreamwalker (donate WSe please)<br /><br />Currently stalking Belals Girl.<br /><br />WTF?</font><p></p>


created: 2003-08-29 12:05:18
subject: <b>I don't think so...</b>
body:
I voted No, for several reasons:<br />The first reason is, that we don't have that much time for all of this to happen (if R.J keeps his word and the series ends in 2 more books).<br />The second reason is how will Toun find out that Mat is an exceptional general?<br />And the last reason is why on earth will Mat agree to serve as a general for his enemies, his captors?<br />Lastly if it will come to that Mat will take Toun and Olver and will make a run for it and will probably make it. <br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" />  One man's theology is another man's belly laugh  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> A man who refuses to take his own death into account in making plans is a fool. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-08-29 17:06:21
subject: <b>Eugenic</b>
body:
Another thing against that theory is that marriages among royal families were usually deals between great families or nations. Or princesses like Tuon usually had to marry person who was selected by her ruler. In this case Empress. <br /><br />There were two major reasons. First was that heir was potential threat to ruler. So any sane ruler who wanted live long made sure that her heir didn't gain too much power too soon. Second was that wise ruler understood that her power is limited. Or empress can wipe out any minor rebellion. But if enough members of high blood rebel against her same time and they are united behind somebody like her heir's husband she would lost her throne and her life. So those are major reasons why I think that Tuon cannot legally marry Mat without permission.<br /><br />Another thing is that Seanchans think that their slaves are talking animals or they are not humans. So to them idea about marriage between member of blood and one of them is similar than to us would be idea that one of W's daughters would marry her pet dog.


created: 2003-08-29 18:07:28
subject: <b>What will really happen.</b>
body:
I like the theory, I just don't agree.  What will most likely happen is that Mat will show he knows more about Hawking from his memories.  The Seanchan will make him part of the BLOOD. They will give him his tattoos; Tuon will be put in awe of him.  Then he will get the dice rolling in his head and naturally assume command of whatever Seanchan forces are around by saving them.  Which will progress into him being commander and chief of the Seanchan while Tuon becomes the empress.  Just as a note, Mat is the only character that any guts when it comes to the female characters.  He is a gambling, womanizing common sense guy.


created: 2003-08-29 18:47:35
subject: <b>Bound to His Weapon</b>
body:
Look at the quote again:<br />&quot;Mat stood naked and bound, snarling; an odd spear with a black shaft had been thrust across his back BEHIND HIS ELBOWS, and a silver medallion, a foxhead, hung on his chest.&quot; (Perrin's Dream, tSR, The Price of a Departure)<br /><br />Notice the BEHIND HIS ELBOWS.  I originally thought he might have been bound to it.  You know... his arms around the spear.  That would in effect immobilize his arms.  If it's behind his elbows it must have either been just tied on to him on the back, or the weapon is just laying around on top of him.  Maybe what you were saying is that he had it tied onto his back, or interpret behind his elbows as something else.  I don't know.  However I did consider that he was tied to his spear.  From the wording I have gotten that he is NOT tied to it or either tied to it in a strange and useless way.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Signed with the Sign that sells!</font><p></p>


created: 2003-08-30 01:47:24
subject: <b>Perrin's Vision</b>
body:
Perhaps everyone is reading to much into this vision.  It happened way back in The Shadow Rising, perhaps it was just Perrin finding out that Mat had been through the doorway and now has the Medallion and Spear, thus taking his place for the last battle, just as Perrin was then taking his.  Especially since Perrin hasnt seen Mat since Tear.<br /><br />Perhaps???<br /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> The Dancing Joker <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br />   Newbie Extraordinar


created: 2003-08-30 12:22:13
subject: <b>More imput</b>
body:
Fyatuk--you keep repeating Tuon can only save Mat by making him Da`covale That is not true.  All she has to do with any Seanchan is tell them NO. She is, after all, the Head of all Seanchan in Westland. Rather than tattooing him, she will simply make him a Blood.  That takes care of the taboo of marrying a da`covale.<br />Kazadorm: I agree-the ravens sinking claws into Mat is symbolism of his connection with Tuon/Seanchan.<br /><br />Mat has grown a lot in WoT. He flat out told Egeanin that she was not the Captain of his party, and he also stood up to Tuon, telling her to buy her fabric now or forget about it, in effect, with Tuon`s apparent approval.<br /><br />Airlance &amp; The Dancing Joker have=it right.  Perrin`s window view of Mat showed the outcome of Mat`s dealings {or lack therof} with the Eelfinn in Rhuidean. <br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2003-08-30 13:13:51
subject: <b>Mat becoming da' covale</b>
body:
Firstly about my first post: After some re-reading I see I was wrong to suggest the DWG merly police the state. I first belived that Kadere killing the Seachan army commander (as mentioned above by File Leader) was merly punishing faliure, but the fact that he took command of the army suggest the DWG have much more authority. Thanx for correcting me!<br /><br />Alot of people have suggested that Mat could never be a slave to Tuon as it would be too out-of-charater. I disagree with this as RJ has shown many characters to act differently when matters of love are involved (Nyneave apologising is a good example!). RJ has played on this throughout the books (there are too many Lini quotes I could go through!). I belive Mat could willfully become (if reluctantly) Tuon's da'covale if its to belived he is in love with her.<br />


created: 2003-08-30 17:32:34
subject: <b>Secession</b>
body:
Fyatuk apparently thinks that Tuon will secede from her Imperial mother, seizing the Empire in the Westlands. Maybe. If Tuon actually do that, it would be suicide: to keep the Empire strong and expanding, a constant flow of reinforcements is needed from across the Aryth Ocean. That need is even more important in light of the approaching Trolloc invasion and Tarmon Gai'don. It would be better that Tuon ascends the Crystal Throne herself and keep both parts of the Empire together. Furthermore, all those empty lands in the Westlands (the Caralain Grass, anyone?) need to be filled up by settlers and Seanchan seems to be an inexhaustible source of colonists.<br /><br />Here's to having Mat as the Imperial Consort, Captain-General of the Deathwatch Guard and Commander of the Band of the Red Hand!<br /><br />We still haven't addressed the problem of Tuon's ability to channel and her implied apparent status of marath'damane.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Gaeran Amaconde<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />Grand Historian at the Court of the Sun<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />One of Those Chosen to Bring the Light<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" />Master of Graendal's Revels<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" />&quot;If sometimes our dreams come true, what of our nightmares?&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-08-31 12:55:10
subject: <b>A few thoughts</b>
body:
To Gaeran,<br /><br /><b> I remember Tuon saying that her father died from losing a major gamble. I get the feeling that her father was not da'covale at all and that the gamble was his attempt to possess the Crystal Throne for himself. </b><br /><br />Yeah, Tuon says her father was a gambler like Mat and &quot;died of a bad wager&quot;. <br />Sounds as if he tried to win the Crystal Throne but paid with his life.<br />Not so unusual, after all also some of Tuon's siblings tried to kill her and some died in the struggle.<br /><br /><br />To jofraz,<br /><br /><b> Fyatuk--you keep repeating Tuon can only save Mat by making him Da`covale That is not true. All she has to do with any Seanchan is tell them NO. She is, after all, the Head of all Seanchan in Westland. Rather than tattooing him, she will simply make him a Blood. That takes care of the taboo of marrying a da`covale. </b><br /><br />I think Fyatuk means that Tuon wants to save Mat's life but also don't want to show him her love yet (because she is not sure about her feelings).<br />So she rather wants to tame Mat a bit by making him da'covale and show him that she is in charge than to promote him to the Blood directly.<br /><br /><br />A few other points,<br /><br />In WH, ch.14, Tuon thinks that a sister and a brother of her had been made da'covale and had their names stricken from the records as firmly as it had been discovered they could channel.<br />This shows again that it is quite unlikely that Tuon would marry a da'covale. <br />That means if Mat becomes da'covale, surely not very long.<br /><br />BTW, Tuon thinks also that one single misstep could see her dead, or worse, stripped and sold on the public block. <br />That shows that da'covale are indeed nacked like in the dream about Mat.<br /><br />I think that the split from the Empress could in fact come with the realisation that sul'dam can channel and that Tuon is a marath'damane. <br />If she doesn't want to lose her status Tuon must secede from the Empire and will probably give freedom to the damane. <br /><br /><br />That the two ravens in Egwene's dream about Mat mean the Seanchan in general who cause problems and not Mat becoming a DWG is also indicated by another dream from Egwene in CoT.<br />In CoT, ch.20, Egwene dreams also of two raves who struck a little lamp. Egwene explains that this dream means that the Seanchan will attack the WT.<br /><br />If in this second dreams the two ravens stand for the Seanchan (army) in general, it makes only sense that also in the dream with Mat the two ravens symbolize the Seanchan and not the DWG tattoos.<br />We see also in other Egwene dreams that similiar dream symbols mean the same thing, e.g. a falcon in her dreams is always Faile. <br /><br /><br />Finally, I wonder if the ashandarei will have a plot significance with Mat and the Seanchan, especially the DWG. <br />Tuon wanted to buy it and it has the two ravens on it, too.<br />Or Mat's new ring who has a fox, moons and two ravens on it.<br /><br /><br />


created: 2003-08-31 14:16:02
subject: <b>Etzel</b>
body:
You and I are in almost complete agreement, except--<br /><br />In the matter of making Mat da`covale.  Even if its only for a minute, and she manumitted him, it would go against your arguement that the Blood can`t marry da`covale.  That is the same problem that Egeanin is wrestling with.<br /><br />It seems to me, also, that the General of the DWG would, by definition, be Property, ie da`covale.<br /><br />Whatever happens, I`m anxious to read about it!<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2003-09-01 03:17:18
subject: <b>Mat has been captured.</b>
body:
In the EoTW Mat was ensnared and captured by Mordeth, so starting his spiral into accepting his fate as tavern. If he had not been he would not have his new memories or the spear or medallion. So saying he is the only character not captured by some evil is false. And his being bound naked to his spear and with his medallion is symbolic of him being bound to his fate.


created: 2003-09-01 13:48:11
subject: <b>Freedom for damane</b>
body:
If Tuon does seperate from the main body of the seanchan and free all damane, there is still the matter of whether anybody will trust that many angry channelers running around loose.  Perhaps swearing the 3 oaths will ensure the safety of the surviving Blood of the empire on this side of the ocean, and swell the waning numbers of the AS.  Not to mention giving Egwene an overwhelming advantage in the war for the tower perhaps?  That would also leave Mat in a position to command all the armies in the west when the trollocs finally come south.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">-If a voice in my head is madness, I don't want to be sane.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-09-02 12:24:16
subject: <b>doubtful</b>
body:
etzel said<br />&quot;It's possible that Tuon tries to make of Mat a da'covale but especially Mat would never accept this (even Bayle Domon doesn't really accept it). <br />The Seanchan have a different culture which Randlanders don't understand; Mat would surely not be proud like Karede if he becomes Tuon's property but consider himself as just a slave.<br /><br />Besides, I doubt a bit that the Heir to the Throne could marry a da'covale, but both will marry as the Finn said. <br />I'm not certain though, do we ever learn e.g. about Tuon's father or if it's allowed for a high noble to marry a da'covale?&quot;<br /><br />i think he was on the right track, i forget where and don't have the books in front of me due to recently moving for school, but in one of the books i think it is mentioned that the nobles frown on marrying property, i think in one of the passages with bayle and egeanin(sp?). well think, if it is frowned apon for regular nobles what do you think would happen for the next empress to do such.<br /><br />no i doubt mat will be made property, i think tuon uses that threat as exactly that, just a threat. like someone else said tuon probably loves mat, even if she doesn't show it, and making him property would mean she couldn't marry him.<br /><br />as for the vision of mat bound naked with the spear etc etc i agree i think that was just a representation of him going to rhuidian, after all they did go in naked and he was bound (across the neck from a tree) with the spear nearby, and he has been metaphorically bound to the spear since then seeing as he keeps it near him constantly.


created: 2003-09-02 13:39:00
subject: <b>Replies to a lot of people</b>
body:
heh... here we go.<br /><br />Ashaman Udi:<br /><b>The first reason is, that we don't have that much time for all of this to happen</b><br /><br />I already discussed this.  It wouldn't take much time (in fact could already happen by the time Rand goes to meet Suroth).<br /><br /><b>The second reason is how will Toun find out that Mat is an exceptional general</b><br /><br />She already knows he's a general.  She has an inkling about his memories (do you remember hawkwings face).  Not hard to put 2 and 2 together.<br /><br /><b>And the last reason is why on earth will Mat agree to serve as a general for his enemies, his captors?</b><br /><br />Because he loves Tuon...<br /><br />PTH:<br /><b>Another thing is that Seanchans think that their slaves are talking animals or they are not humans. So to them idea about marriage between member of blood and one of them is similar than to us would be idea that one of W's daughters would marry her pet dog.</b><br /><br />A little extreme example.  Egeanin is considering it so it can't be that far from a stretch.  Besides, as has been pointed out Tuon can do whatever she wants (as has been used to push against her claiming him as da'covale to save his life when she could just say don't kill him).  On this side of the ocean she basically is the law (as soon as she &quot;removes her veil&quot; anyway).<br /><br />Sampson:<br /><b>The Seanchan will make him part of the BLOOD. They will give him his tattoos</b><br /><br />He wouldn't get tattooes if he was raised to the Blood.  The tattoos are basically a brand to mark the property of the imperial family.<br /><br />Airlance:<br /><b>Notice the BEHIND HIS ELBOWS...If it's behind his elbows it must have either been just tied on to him on the back, or the weapon is just laying around on top of him.</b><br /><br />If it's truly behind his elbows, then it would either have to be tied there or he would have to be lying down, otherwise it wouldn't stay there.  He doesn't seem to be lying down so I'd say its tied there.<br /><br />The Dancing Joker:<br /><br />It's already been covered that that dream can have several other valid interpretations.  People are trying to dissuade me of my interpretation.<br /><br />jofraz:<br /><b>Fyatuk--you keep repeating Tuon can only save Mat by making him Da`covale</b><br /><br />I never said it was the only way.  I said it is a reason she would make him da'covale.  (at least I don't think I said it was the only way, and if I did I apologize my head wasn't working).  I meant that it would make the most sense since just freeing him would show weakness on her part that her rivals would certainly take advantage of.<br /><br />Gaeran:<br /><b> to keep the Empire strong and expanding,</b><br /><br />That was partly the point.  It won't be the empire, and they won't need such a forced expansion because Rand will have granted the land to her.  The influx isn't needed any longer as they have enough military to hold the lands they have taken.  The armies of the entire world are slowly centering around Andor and the combined forces should be enough to stop and force back trolloc hordes.  Especially since that should be a relatively minor part of TG (as far as history will go, will make the reconstruction hell though).<br /><br /><b>We still haven't addressed the problem of Tuon's ability to channel and her implied apparent status of marath'damane</b><br /><br />That's one of the reasons I suggested she would secede (either here or on the MB).  If it's discovered she even has the ability to channel her life as a Seanchen heir is over.<br /><br />where is tylins head:<br /><b>Mat was ensnared and captured by Mordeth,</b><br /><br />Bad argument, we talking about physically captured, not metaphysically.  ie.  Rand was captured by the Tower, Egwene by the Seanchen, Nynaeve &amp; Elayne by the BA, etc.<br /><br />Mat being ensnared by Mordeth is more closely to Rand discovering he can channel.  Its why he is who he is (Mat, that is) not really anything else.<br /><br />Most of the other comments I saw again refer to Perrin's dream saying they agree with whatever interpretations so I'm not bothering with those.  (Not that they aren't worth bothering with, just its been covered repeatedly so there's no real point in it.)<br /><br />I really am suprised how much discussion this has brought out, and I'm really suprised that it's actually gotten as many Yes votes as it has.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Fyatuk Loth<br />Pope Consort to Grand Mistress Krista Sedai<br />Minister to the Way of What<br />Warder to Egwene Dreamwalker (donate WSe please)<br /><br />Currently stalking Belals Girl.<br /><br />WTF?</font><p></p>


created: 2003-09-02 18:57:47
subject: <b>Consider this</b>
body:
Mat is captured by Suroth and made da'covale so she can use him for the shadow, like what she plans for Rand.  But Tuon saves him by completing the ceremony. Yeah, I doubt it too, but how romantic!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Aviendah's toy boy<br /><br />Kaylee's doctor<br /><br />Tara trapped in a man's body...yes I avoid windows<br /><br />I'm a realist...it sounds like pessimism because the world sucks!</font><p></p>


created: 2003-09-03 23:28:30
subject: <b>NO!</b>
body:
NOO!! I dont want Mat captured! That would SUCK! BUt you DO have a compelling argument!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rand.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Kneel and swear to the Lord Dragon, or you shall be knelt! - Mazrim Taim<br /><br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-09-04 00:01:10
subject: <b>Where is Mat going?</b>
body:
I think peole are missing two main points.<br /><br />1) The major theme of the wheel of time is change. By the end of the series the world will be broken. The seachan with their customs and empress are not going to survive. I suspect that like Hawking's army that crossed the ocean, they came to conquer, but their culture will not survive. So why try to fit Mat into a scheme based upon the way things are now? The seanchan will be there for the final battle, but not as they are now. Their culture is already begining to crumble, that's what the whole sul'dam can channel thing is about. It's not simple to throw in a plot twist with Tuon. It is something that will help to break the Seanchan. Who the seachan are will crumble, and who they crumble into will fight the final battle.<br />This being said, it is totally impossible to uncover what major plot lines are going to occur, because we do not know in what way the world will change. <br /><br />2)Mat is ta'veren. &quot;A person around whom the Wheel of Time weaves all surrounding life-ghreads, perhaps all life threads, to form a Web of Destiny&quot; such a person is not going to become someone's slave, which is all that da'covale are in the end. The pattern will form around Mat and everyone else will conform to him. Just think of chapter 32 in EOTW when the lightening save Mat and Rand. It happens to show that the course of the ta'veren is set, and whoever that tries to stop it can not suceed. Tuon can not set the course for a Ta'veren. She is not sweeping him in to lead the seanchan, he is bringing her into his Web of Destiny.<br />


created: 2003-09-04 12:42:05
subject: <b>To slmrcs---Brilliant observations</b>
body:
You have presented the future far better than anyone that I have read.<br /><br />It sums up beautifully why Mat will not be da`covale. Besides, Mat has already shown that he will not be enslaved, nor his plans being changed.  If Tuon did in fact make him da`covale, and try to show him she is the master, that would certainly kill any love Mat could have for her.<br /><br />No one responds favorably to domination.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2003-09-04 19:05:54
subject: <b>Re-replies to Fyatuk</b>
body:
I do not remember exactly (my books are packed right now). But I thought the Seanchan both the DWG and the Listeners had tattoos only on (1) shoulder.  If I&#8217;m right about what I think is going to happen, they will give him a tattoo and the 2nd will appear on his other arm/shoulder which will be a sign of him being special.  <br />Wasn&#8217;t there something about a family back in Seanchan which got drunk or something and gave themselves a raven tattoo and all their descendants have the raven tattoo?  <br />The only tavern that hasn&#8217;t been marked by something special physically is Mat. Rand&#8217;s hands &amp; arms and Perrins eye&#8217;s.  I do not count the scar around Mats neck.  <br />


created: 2003-09-05 08:06:36
subject: <b>slmrcs ...</b>
body:
<b>The seachan with their customs and empress are not going to survive.</b><br /><br />That's basically what I've been saying.  I just think this is gonna happen before those traditions get thrown out the window.<br /><br /><b>This being said, it is totally impossible to uncover what major plot lines are going to occur, because we do not know in what way the world will change. </b><br /><br />This is an argument against any theory, and if you truly believe this why do you read them?  Wouldn't that be just a waste of time?  I agree that we cannot accurately predict them on any sort of regular basis, but we enjoy the speculation, so we ignore this.<br /><br /><b>such a person is not going to become someone's slave,</b><br /><br />If the Pattern needed it he would.  In fact, since he's ta'veren the extremes are more likely to happen to him.<br /><br /><b>Just think of chapter 32 in EOTW when the lightening save Mat and Rand.</b><br /><br />That was not ta'veren, that was Rand channeling.  Remember he got sick afterwords.<br /><br />You seem to think that because Mat is ta'veren not only wouldn't be made a slave, but nothing bad should happen to him unless he initiates it.  That's not how it works.  If it was Rand would not have been captured by the Tower, Mat would not have had a building fall on him, and Perrin would not be chasing Shaido after Faile.<br /><br />The Pattern decides where a ta'veren's life goes and if the Pattern needs Mat to be a slave, then he will be.  It would still be Tuon being caught up in Mat's swirl either way.<br /><br /><br />Others:<br /><br />jofraz:<br /><br />how has Mat showed he would not be enslaved?  Tylin did a pretty good job of it for quite a while.  And Mat apparently doesn't mind domination.  He was dominated almost completely by Tylin (She decided not only their sex life, but where he could go and what he would wear otherwise) and he still nearly fell for her.<br /><br />Sampson:<br /><br />re-read the Egeanin/Seeker segment in Tanchico.  DWG/Seekers have the Ravens on both shoulders, its the Towers (for Seekers, DWG don't wear the towers) that are not required on both shoulders (IIRC).<br /><br />And I would count the scar around his neck as a physical mark.  It is something Mat got in sealing his destiny (like perrin's eyes or Rand's hands/arms) as a general/leader.  Of course that doesn't mean its the only marks he'll get.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Fyatuk Loth<br />Pope Consort to Grand Mistress Krista Sedai<br />Minister to the Way of What<br />Warder to Egwene Dreamwalker (donate WSe please)<br /><br />Currently stalking Belals Girl.<br /><br />WTF?</font><p></p>


created: 2003-09-18 11:01:13
subject: <b>One Crucial Point!!!</b>
body:
This is a well thought out theory but there is one point missing. Everything about this theory makes sense, and that is precisely what's wrong with it! You are using examples like the deathwatch guards and Egeanin buying Domon, but there is one thing that separates these people from Mat. These examples are of normal people in extraordinary situations, and Mat is Ta'varen!!! While what they go through is not &quot;normal&quot; they are normal people and are just threads in the pattern, while poor Mat as a key thread must pull others around his shaping. Why make him escape from Ebou Dar if he just gets caught again?


created: 2003-09-19 11:33:50
subject: <b>To get caught...</b>
body:
He wasn't a prisoner in Ebou Dar (well, kinda a prisoner of Tylin), but in no way would he have any chance of joining the Seanchan.  Tuon couldn't buy him from Tylin (Tylin felt he couldn't be sold because he was a free person) and she obviously wasn't going to approach him there.<br /><br />By leaving he set the ball rolling on this particular series of events (the ones that will happen, not what I've said in the theory, though I do believe this theory will happen).  Without his escaping Ebou Dar he and Tuon wouldn't be getting to know each other.  There would be nothing for him to become a prisoner of the Seanchan for.<br /><br />That's one of the reasons I think this will happen is he is ta'veren.  Every one of his actions has repurcussions, and with him the least likely (which considering his personality is him being made prisoner and da'covale) is more likely to happen than with normal people.<br /><br />Yes he is ta'veren, which means the pattern leads him by the nose as his thread drags others.  Anyone thought that maybe the pattern has decided that Mat will be the lynchpin in evolving Seanchan society?  (He and Tuon breaking down the societal classes).  Or that this might be the only way to get him inside the meeting with Rand (if Tuon goes back to crash it)?  There are a lot of possibilites that can happen.  Him bein ta'veren does not exclude him from anything, and I think it makes this more likely to happen since otherwise he's out of commission for several weeks (he has nobody that can Travel with him and no one knows where he is at).<br /><br />What is more likely for a ta'veren?  Being dragged back to where important goings on are happening (a few days trip at most) or being left out of everything while you wonder your way to safer lands (a couple weeks at least)?<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Fyatuk Loth<br />Pope Consort to Grand Mistress Krista Sedai<br />Minister to the Way of What<br />Warder to Egwene Dreamwalker (donate WSe please)<br /><br />Currently stalking Belals Girl.<br /><br />WTF?</font><p></p>


created: 2003-12-10 12:45:30
subject: <b>thinking of eastern cultures..</b>
body:
Isn't the Seanchan empire based on eastern cultures? If so, and as far as I know, many people think it is, then Mart cannot be a slave for a short time. In those cultures being a slave was permanent, with no way to regain your freedom, not even if a lord or emperor said so (correct me if I'm wrong, cause the rest is based on this). Being a slave means that you're less than human and nobody wants to marry something that isn't even considered to be human, certainly not Tuon, who's reputation would get damaged. If her reputation was damaged enough the Empress might decide to make one of her other children the heir. <br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> OINK <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-06 18:30:55
subject: <b>Mat as an ally</b>
body:
While I do understand the sense of this theory, I find it hard to agree.  My reluctance to accept that Mat will become a captive comes from the Epilogue in CoT.  It states that High Lady Suroth has agreed to meet in regards to a truce, however, she wants Rand to meet with Tuon, aka The Daughter of the Nine Moons, who, we all know, is the captive of Mat and his future bride.  <br />I am led to believe that, instead of Mat becoming a captive, he will instead agree to serve Tuon, most likely as a general for the Seanchan (As mentioned in the theory, for the upcoming Last Battle, or Tarmon Gaidon.<br />While I won't say this is an ironclad argument, I have a feeling that it may be closer to the truth than the original theory.


created: 2004-01-26 19:20:45
subject: <b>Cookie for You</b>
body:
Nice theroy, but no.  Mats personality is too &quot;I hate being womens pets.&quot;<br />and &quot;i hate commitment&quot; and &quot;I like being free/making money.&quot;<br />Also your theroy requires Mat to go back to Ebou Dar and HE HAS BEEN THERE FOR TOO FREAKIN LONG!!!!!!!  I  think Kearde may catch them but Tuon may ask him to let Mat and comp. go proving she loves (or at least doesn't hate) him.  She may even say her vows then.<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> Inu yasha... FEH!


created: 2004-04-05 21:07:50
subject: <b>Replies, which I don't expect to be read since this is old</b>
body:
<b>moratraken</b>:<br /><br />You're forgetting something about CoT.  It was established that there is a fake DotNM running around Ebou Dar.  Its more likely Suroth is using the fake than the real one.<br /><br />With the image of the Ravens settling onto Mat's shoulders, it is most likely he will be property of some sort.<br /><br /><b>Anna Sedai:</b><br /><br />Mat's personality has little to do with it, but your analysis of it is incomplete.  You say he hates being a woman's pet, yet he grew fond of being dominated by Tylin.  You say he hates committment, but he's the one committing himself to Tuon.  And yes, he like being free, but he also prefers to avoid death, which would be the only other option if he's caught.<br /><br />I don't see her letting Mat go like that either.  The whole interplay between them so far has been her establishing her dominance.  She knows she's going to end up with him anyway, and she won't want to risk letting him go.  It actually wouldn't suprise me if she already said her vows (he doesn't have to know about them, vows are regularly done cross-continent in Seanchan so obviously the parties don't have to be together).<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Fyatuk Loth<br />Pope Consort to Grand Mistress Krista Sedai<br />Minister to the Way of What<br />Warder to Egwene Dreamwalker (donate WSe please)<br /><br />Currently stalking Belals Girl.<br /><br />WTF?</font><p></p>


created: 2004-05-26 13:06:14
subject: <b>.......Why?</b>
body:
Look..... Your post is definitely interesting, but from what I see, it can be boiled down to two major points of evidence, and one minor one<br /><br />Point 1:  Mat is due to be captured, as nearly every other major character has already been captured.<br /><br /><br /><br />Point 2:  Perrin foresaw a picture of Mat being captured, and Egwene saw an image of ravens appearing on Mat's shoulders.<br /><br />Minor point: Tuon says she might make Mat da'covale.<br /><br />Basically, while I find the basic idea of your theory interesting, it doesn't really seem to hold any water for me, from the evidence given. My response:<br /><br />Point 1: So?  Where does it say that every one of the main characters has to go through a similar cycle?  Robert Jordan isn't that much of a repetitive writer, and Mat's character makes it hard to imagine him imprisoned for any length of time.... Examples, his need for liberty and an intense desire to maintain it, and his extraordinary luck, both make it less likely for him to get captured.<br /><br />Point 2: Neither of these seperate points really suggest Mat will be captured AND become Deathwatch Guard.  First of all, both come from older books, and it seems that as dreams are simply likelihoods (Egwene says this, I forget where, but she says they are simply more likely, not certainties like Foretelling), then the further away from the event, the less likely they are.  Secondly, while Perrin's may suggest Mat's capture, it could easily be a reference to his capture by Tylin, or another analogy, rather than actual physical capture.  In fact, the nudity would seem to point more to Tylin <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />.  Egwene's dream, meanwhile, while it does suggest Mat's upcoming involvement with the Seanchan, it never really suggests that he will become property.  We all know by now that he ended up entangled with the Seanchan, and with Tuon herself.  That may be all that this is a reference to.<br /><br /><br />   Beyond this, there isn't any real support for your theory.  It's just conjecture.  The fact is, Ockham's razor (see this site: http://phyun5.ucr.edu/~wudka/Physics7/Notes_www/node10.html) tells us to reject hypotheses such as yours.  While the theory that &quot;Perrin's dream refers to Mat's capture by Tylin, and Egwene's to Mat's involvement with the Seanchan heir&quot; already has evidence to back it up (this is what happened), your theory requires us to accept the hypotheses that a) Mat will, in future, be physically captured by the Seanchan, b) Tuon will not have any way to save his life except by making him property, c) that the Seanchan will discover Mat's amazing abilities at generalship even when he's stuck performing meanial duties as property, d) that Tuon will find some way to marry a da'covale, as is necessary to fulfill the prophecy, e) that the Seanchan will be crazy enough to promote property which they've just captured to the status of general over all their armies immediately after he's run off with the heir to their throne (puh-lease, how likely is this? It'll take YEARS before they'll let Mat anywhere near Tuon, or to freedom), and f) all this will happen before Tarmon Gai'don, or the end of the series (whichever happens first<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />).  Basically, your theory promotes a host of needlessly complex hypotheses about the future based on a few strands of very old evidence (you're quoting books 5 and 6, we're on book 10 now) and gives no real necessity for any of them.<br /><br />I like the style, and the interesting new ideas your theory creates.  I just can't believe it.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;The buck stops here.&quot;-Harry S. Truman <br />&quot;Nobody pushes a dwarf.&quot; -Gimli, son of Gloin <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gimli.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" />Jester-Warrior of the Black Tower<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-09-29 15:19:55
subject: <b>she is supposed to marry him or him her...</b>
body:
not any other thing... or whatever... <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smackhead.gif" border="0" /><i><font color="blue">Stealer of Tigrs' Brain</font></i> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smackhead.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tinfoilhat.gif" border="0" /> <font color="red">Aes Sedai to Urza, Tayron, and Jojjo.</font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tinfoilhat.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> <font color="blue">Kuke will call you Prendergast Von Bimmle from now on.</font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" /> <i><font color="red">New mistress to Sheep, Slayer_2, &amp; Delireus!</font></i> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/crazy.gif" border="0" /> <font color="blue">Worshipper of Snoopster!</font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/crazy.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-10-16 08:49:48
subject: <b>Ooh, how intriguing....</b>
body:
I think that Mat and Tuon will need to be seperate in order for them to do what they have to do for the Last Battle... It's not likely that they'll go hand in hand like Perrin and Faile, since Mat has an army waiting for him and maybe even a woman that needs rescuing (Moiraine); and then Tuon has her crumbling Empire to fix. So I think that the Deathwatch will capture Mat (he's wanted by the entire Seanchan Empire, so it's only a matter of time before he really does get caught) and then Tuon will free him, which seems more likely than her running off with him, or her making him da'covale (too permanent, too complicated...). Plus, if he's rescued, he'll have to run - hard. But if she declares him her husband, or made da'covale, or whatever, chances are he'll linger and take his time. As for the death sentence that's on Mat's head... as soon as Tuon becomes Empress, she'll have it lifted (she'll wait for fun.)<br /><br />As for seceding... I don't think she will. What would be the point? To be with Mat? Not likely. But then, I actually don't think that she could channel, either, but that's just personal preference (every woman we meet seems to have the One Power in her blood...) My problem with her seceding is that if she does, nothing will keep the Seanchan from attempting to wipe out Rand and all his Dragonsworn, which leaves the only other option of the Seanchan retreating across the Aryth Ocean again, which I don't think will happen. Plus the prophecies said something about the land being divided into two after Tarmon Gai'don... so my guess, will be that Mat is going to keep things balanced and stop Seanchan and Dragonsworn from butting hands (but will favor Tuon more than Rand, of course <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" />).<br /><br />So that's my take on it. I don't think that he'll be a cupbearer, though (maybe when he comes back as quick punishment for kidnapping her) but right now it seems too... I don't know... it seems too lenient. If touching the Dot9M is punished by slow tortue, it's got to be a hundred times worse for kidnapping her. Certainly not being a cupbearer. Plus, it's too slow. With two books left, it's got to be fast-paced and suspenseful. Not only that, but Mat needs to be &quot;forced&quot; into being a hero; being a cupbearer will likely excuse him from those responsibilities <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> But I do like the idea of Mat being naked, bound, and snarling. (Sounds pretty kinky, come to think of it, hehe.)


created: 2005-05-29 12:29:26
subject: <b>don't think so.</b>
body:
I just don't think that Jordan is going to do that. It would really make the books feel like they all have one plot if everyone got captured. Besides, Jordans thing with mat is that he's the one always saving those who get captured, can't do that if you are yourself.<br /><br />I do however agree with teh two raven thing, but possibly he'll be marked like that when he marries tuon, of his own velision. <br /><br />I actually made a thoery on that..... if it'll ever get posted........ <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/frown.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Journey to the Tiger Sea,<br />Where legends die and stories be,<br />Where royalty rise and fall,<br />And Wotmania rules them all.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-09-04 08:50:07
subject: <b>The Path of Daggers, A Cup of Sleep, 643</b>
body:
&quot;A man, Demandred, or perhaps Asmodean come back at last.&quot;<br />During that attack Rand thinks that Asmo could be attacker.


created: 2003-09-04 09:35:03
subject: <b>nah</b>
body:
as PTH said, rand didn't know who killed him.<br /><br />nice idea though.<br /><br /><br />personally, i think it was luc / slayer<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Seeking Aes Sedai for Bondage... uhh bonding. <br /><br />We rode on the winds of the rising storm,<br />We ran to the sounds of the thunder,<br />We danced among the lightning bolts,<br />and tore the world asunder.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-09-04 10:31:05
subject: <b>Nuh-uh</b>
body:
Remember, after Asmodean was murdered, Rand was wondering where he had disappeared to, thinking that he ran away (beginning of LoC). This is not the POV of Asmodean's killer. It was Graendal in the Scullery with Saidar.<br /><br />In FoH, To Caemlyn, we find out that Graendal, Rahvin, Sammael and Lanfear were plotting to capture Rand, using Sammael as bait in Illian. As we know, Lanfear's anguish threw that out of kilter. At the time of Asmodean's death, Rahvin was balefired, and Lanfear was being held by the *finn. If it had been Sammael, Rand would have sensed his saidin and taken action. He didn't know Asmodean's fate and had to ask Graendal whether she knew. Therefore it was a woman. With Wise Ones everywhere, one more surge of saidar would not be out of place. Moghedien, illegally privy to the plot, was a'damed by Nynaeve. That leaves, out of the 4 plotters in Caemlyn, Graendal.<br /><br />Furthermore, Graendal said that Asmodean was dead; Asmodean recognized his killer (&quot;You? No!&quot; ); Asmodean felt a chill (woman channeling) just before opening the scullery door, but dismissed it due to his preoccupation with the Forsaken.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Gaeran Amaconde<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />Grand Historian at the Court of the Sun<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />One of Those Chosen to Bring the Light<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" />Master of Graendal's Revels<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" />&quot;If sometimes our dreams come true, what of our nightmares?&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-09-04 11:24:10
subject: <b>Thanks for theory--but PTH..</b>
body:
shot it down.  His reference to tPoD is page 565 HC.<br /><br />Gaeran made a great point for Graendal but his use of &quot;felt a chill&quot; caused me to look it up, and the exact wording is &quot;shivered&quot;, which is a man`s reaction to saidar being channeled.<br /><br />Having said all that, and RJ telling us only one person had the correct answer, how could it be Graendal?  Surely, more than one person had come to that conclusion.<br /><br />So, I`ll go out on a {weak} limb, and say Shaidar Haran!<br />Recall, he had felt a weakness when being away from Shayol Ghul for a while and wanted to overcome the problem. By killing Asmodean, he could snatch him into a vacu`ole {sp}<br />and combine himself with Asmodean to gain some of his great powers.<br />This is my theory.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2003-09-04 12:46:12
subject: <b>jofraz, you're forgetting something...</b>
body:
RJ has said repeatedly that at the moment of reading Asmo's death (the end of FoH) it should be &quot;obvious to the most casual observer&quot; who the killer was. Apparently we had all the necessary clues at that point to know who it was. Shaidar Haran was an unknown to us (just as was Moridin).<br /><br />I tend to agree that it seems likely it was Graendal, but I still hold out on commiting myself to that. I still think it was Lanfear, or maybe even Moiraine.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">--imlad</font><p></p>


created: 2003-09-04 12:49:51
subject: <b>imlaid</b>
body:
Thanks for the correction.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2003-09-04 13:42:42
subject: <b>How bout Lews Therin</b>
body:
Couldn't it have been Lews Therin who did it?  Perhaps in an instant Rand lost control over him, Lews Therin killed Asmodean andthen Rand forgot about it.  Might make a little bit of sense.  I still doubt it, but you can make an argument.  It might explain why Rand was so adamant about not giving control back to Lews Therin, since he had already lost control before and was scared of it.  In short, probably not, but its worth thinking about.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">StanfordMatt0<br /><br />&quot;Don't blame me; I voted for Kodos&quot;<br /><br />We're # 1!  And I was there! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/recap?gameId=240380024</font><p></p>


created: 2003-09-04 14:12:46
subject: <b>No</b>
body:
No it wasn't Rand. What would he gain by killing Asmodean?<br /><br />I don't know who it was, but here is a suggestion.<br />Since according to the post above, Asmodean looked surprised and know the killer, I will sugest this name.<br />Mat Cauthon.<br /><br />Why? Since I read this other theory about Mat surrendering to the Dark one in his dreams. Maybe he did carry this out without knowing. Personally I don't believe this. Only an suggestion.


created: 2003-09-04 15:57:32
subject: <b>t.neo....</b>
body:
While intriguing, we would have seen indications of this in Mat's POV. Maybe by way of &quot;Rand is better off without that sneaky Jasin Natael calling himself Court-Bard of the Dragon Reborn. Careful, Mat, Rand's asking questions!&quot;<br /><br />See <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /> shake his <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> at the Seanchan, especially Tuon! No Jasin Natael for Mat!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Gaeran Amaconde<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />Grand Historian at the Court of the Sun<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />One of Those Chosen to Bring the Light<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" />Master of Graendal's Revels<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" />&quot;If sometimes our dreams come true, what of our nightmares?&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-09-04 16:00:07
subject: <b>What happened to the body?</b>
body:
It wasn't Greandal because Aviendha was right there in the vicinity and she would have definitely felt a gateway open or read the residues of it. It wasn't Mat because he had no way of making his body disappear.  It was Isam stepped out of telaranrrhiod, killed him and took him back in.  Nobody felt a thing.  bam.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-09-04 16:55:12
subject: <b>Asmodean's shiver</b>
body:
I have a confession to make.  I believe it was Graendal.  I also want it to be Graendal ('cos I like her). But Asmodean's shiver had nothing to do with saidar. The whole passage must be read, in the context that Asmodean was killed by Rahvin's lightning, and brought back to life by Rand's balefiring Rahvin. I quote from the final chapter of tFoH:<br /><br />&quot;[Asmodean] was not sure what had happened that morning, and not sure he wanted to be sure.  Too many Aiel had expressed surprse at seeing him, had claimed they had seen him dead; he did not want details.  There was a long gas down the wall in front of him.  he knew what made that sharp edge [i.e. balefire], that surface as slick as ice, smoother than any hand could have polished in a hundred years.  Idly - but with a shiver, too - he wondered whether being rebornin this fashion made him a new man.  he did not think so.  Immortality was gone.  That was a gift of the Great Lord ... Immortality gone - he knew it must be imaginatio, yet sometimes he thought he could feel time dragting at him, pulling him toward a grave he had never thought to meet ...&quot;<br /><br />This explains the shiver: he realises that not only has he died once (enough to make me shiver if it were me, don't know about you), but also that he is no longer immortal and will die again. Saidar had nothing to do with it.


created: 2003-09-04 18:27:29
subject: <b>wtf</b>
body:
i gotta agree with the last post for someone whos re reading it you missed a lot but i gotta give you credit for at least thinking of something


created: 2003-09-04 18:46:37
subject: <b>Correct me if I'm wrong</b>
body:
Just before Asmo's death, we get a view of Rand looking down on the courtyard where Mat is talking to Avienha. The same courtyard that Asmo is leaving. This would make it virtually impossible for Rand to be in two places at once. <br /><br /> But not only that, it places a male channeler and a female channeler in close proximity to Asmo. If BF was used, Rand or Avi SHOULD have sensed it, UNLESS the TP was used.<br /><br /> If that is the case, I put forth the idea that it was an assasin sent by the DO himself. He did know about Asmodean's treachery, as well as knowing he was dead, almost immediately.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2003-09-04 20:56:31
subject: <b>Luc/Isam</b>
body:
I have always thought it was Luc/Isam, and I havent read anything here to shake that belief. Nice to have a theory to read tho! Thx!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-09-04 22:34:16
subject: <b>Um.. no</b>
body:
There was a MB post a few months ago in which someone had basically asked RJ to confirm it was Graendal, and he did.<br /><br />So there.<br /><br />Besides.. why in the hell would Rand kill Asmo?  It doesn't make sense to me.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>&quot;Those who beat their swords into plowshares will plow for those who don't.&quot; - Thomas Jefferson</i><br /><br /> PSUCOM Class of '09</font><p></p>


created: 2003-09-05 00:57:49
subject: <b>RJ never confirmed it was Graendal</b>
body:
And if you are thinking about that online chat transcript with Vercin.  then you have it backwards.  That was an edited transcript-- I don't know the full details, but it isn't what you think.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ADA- AlannaDawn Anonymous-- helping wotmaniacs recovering from their AlanndaDawn Addictions in a dynamic new 12-step program.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-09-05 06:08:04
subject: <b>several points</b>
body:
#1. he identified his killer.<br /><br />fit's with graendal AND luc/slayer<br /><br />#2. nobody noticed, hence rand thought he &quot;ran away&quot;<br />therefore, no body. <br /><br />balefire and channeling are NOT ruled out due to no-one sensing it, because of inverted weaves.<br /><br />#3. Isam / luc, also explains lack of sensing, becuase what &quot;they&quot; do is not done with the OP.<br /><br /><br />#4. what we really need, is to find out who was nearby at the time, and left shorlty before / after Asmo did.<br /><br />any takers on that one?<br /><br />i aint goin full blown on this, as this aint a theory on it's own, but please, help out, we must solve this mystery!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Seeking Aes Sedai for Bondage... uhh bonding. <br /><br />We rode on the winds of the rising storm,<br />We ran to the sounds of the thunder,<br />We danced among the lightning bolts,<br />and tore the world asunder.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-09-05 08:19:28
subject: <b>Damn.</b>
body:
I still think it was Graendal - saying &quot;Slayer did it&quot; seems like such a cop-out.<br /><br />I mean, maybe Graendal changed her appearance to LOOK like Slayer, and used a ter'angreal to kill Asmo.  <br /><br />Or maybe Bran Al'Vere is the Wanderer and can secretly channel the true power, and it was he who did it.<br /><br />Or maybe the person we think is Rand is really Asmo under a Mask, and Rand is hiding out somewhere, and some random dude was given the task of masquerading as Asmodean, and he got killed by Shaidar Haran, who resembled a creature from his nightmares as a child, which is why he would have recognized him.<br /><br />Or maybe Asmo was walking around near the blacksmith's shop, and the smith accidentally dropped a big pile of hot iron on him by mistake - wrong place, wrong time.<br /><br />There are a lot of possibilities - Graendal's definitely the most plausible one.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>&quot;Those who beat their swords into plowshares will plow for those who don't.&quot; - Thomas Jefferson</i><br /><br /> PSUCOM Class of '09</font><p></p>


created: 2003-09-05 15:58:43
subject: <b>luc/isam?</b>
body:
if it was isam, then how does he kill a forsaken? if he does have that kind of power, how can anyone controll him?


created: 2003-09-05 17:31:32
subject: <b>I thought we decided it was Bela!!!</b>
body:
you people are really pissing me off by re-hatching this whole controversy!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Pronounced: &quot;Rand was here&quot;<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shakefist.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-09-05 18:58:50
subject: <b>mussels</b>
body:
i dont think you can invert weaves like balefire, i believe that comes with a weave you tie off, like the illusion the girls use or the shield lanfear put on asmodean. i dont think its possible to shoot a bar of fire that a same sex channeler wont sense. or else the forsaken would always invert their attacks and we know they dont, eg nynaeve senses moggys BF right before she breaks her block. moggy may not have thought it necessary but we also know she never takes an unnecesary risk, so if she could have inverted her BF she would have. <br /><br />avienda would have felt graendal channel particularly if she made a gateway. it is possible that rand could have sense sammael but keep in mind men have a much shorter range, eg rand in straining to feel rhavin channel when they are in the same castle, but i also believe a man gateway takes too much power for rand not to sense it.<br /><br />in my opinion this leaves only slayer, but the weak point there is asmo instantly recognized his killer, he also instantly knew he was gunna die, i dont know its a tough one, i dont think it was rand because he wouldnt be shocked to turn a corner and see him. (whew) the end.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Whelp, I'm rich! So long losers who I've always hated.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-09-05 19:39:04
subject: <b>No way it is slayer</b>
body:
How on earth would he be able to look Asmo in the face and then stick a knife in him without Asmo being able to channel?  He could do a bit even with his shield (reference the battle for Cairhien where he does a bit of healing on Rand).  It has to be either Grendal or Lanfear.  Lanfear is a bit iffy because we are made to think she is dead.


created: 2003-09-06 08:31:44
subject: <b>Matrimony's right, rahien</b>
body:
It was from a Barnes and Noble chat and I asked the question.  First off, it was originally a &quot;note, Graendal killed him&quot; rather than just a simple Graendal killed him, making it seem that that's what RJ was agreeing to.  Second, if you read the damn sentence even with the bloody editing it's clear english wise that RJ is answering the actual question, not my comment at the end.<br /><br />And it's not bloody slayer.  Can anyone PLEASE tell me why the bloody hell slayer would be instantly obvious after the last time we saw him was 1500 pages ago, not even in this book, and he was running away with an arrow through his chest.  Wow, he's almost dead!  So surely he is death too!  Death took him!  Slayer did it, man!<br /><br />Whatever.<br /><br />On a side note I laughed at this theory when I read it in the pending files...almost deleted it, but I'm glad someone posted it for the humor it provides.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Vercingetorix<br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/803.gif" /><br />Theory Post Admin<br /><br />I went to the doctor the other day and all he did was drain some blood from my neck.  Don't ever go to Doctor Acula.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-09-07 20:26:10
subject: <b>NOpe</b>
body:
It was Graendal, either somehow shielding Saidar's use or using the True Power. ANd if you dont believe me you'll find out.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rand.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Kneel and swear to the Lord Dragon, or you shall be knelt! - Mazrim Taim<br /><br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-09-08 20:16:48
subject: <b>who knows</b>
body:
i think this isnt going to be fully answered until rj puts in a pov that clearly states it. im think ishamael or graendal did it, im not decided. but then, u have to realise, that chill could have been anyone of the ladies channelin, aviendha or somethin.  but either way, im convinced the evidence lies more in the points of view of the forsaken that anywhere else. <br /><br />and why the hell would asmodean be afraid if he saw rand? he has no reason


created: 2003-09-09 06:38:19
subject: <b>RJ Disproved this</b>
body:
I believe he said in one interview that death was referring to actual death - some kid asked him if 'death took him' could be literal<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">In religion and politics people's beliefs and convictions are in almost every case gotten at second-hand, and without examination.  -- Mark Twain</font><p></p>


created: 2003-09-09 12:24:41
subject: <b>what....</b>
body:
later on in path of daggers, hes thinking to himself, finally demandred came after him  or maybe it was asmodean finally returned. he doesn't know what happened to asmo. not alot of people do. so *razberry*<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rand.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perrin.gif" border="0" /><br />I don't fail. I succeed in finding what doesn't work. <br /><br /><font color="00ff33">Official Sponsor of the Melindhra Fan Club</font></font><p><a href="http://www.illwillpress.com" target="_blank">Feel the Squirley Wrath!!!!</a></p><p></p>


created: 2003-09-10 17:43:44
subject: <b>Of course it wasn't Slayer, and it was Graendal</b>
body:
I agree totally with Vercingetorix.  I would add that we don't know of Luc/Isam/Slayer being an assassin for hire by Forsaken etc. until several books later, so it is not remotely intuitive or obvious that he should be the killer. Hence (as RJ said the killer was) he ain't. Period.<br /><br />I agree the TP would be more subtle, but as Moridin hasn't been re-introduced, let alone shown as Mr TP, it's not really a starter.<br /><br />While Rand would certainly notice a man channelling (there weren't that many channelling men then - just him and Asmo, who barely could manage it), the women probably wouldn't notice a woman doing that specific channelling as there were quite a lot of female channellers around, and in any case a woman channelling is something people are fairly used to (as opposed to a man channelling).<br /><br />So a woman is indicated, and it would have to be one that a) knew Natael was Asmo and b) Asmo recognised. Lanfear and Moiraine are almost certainly ruled out as still with the Finn (and possibly dead - and no it's not Cyndane as Asmo wouldn't recognise her - none of the other Forsaken do), which leaves Graendal, Semirhage and Mesaana.  Of those, we only knew of a reason for Graendal to kill Asmo (she/Rahvin/Sammael say they will when they next see her).<br /><br />QED


created: 2006-07-11 11:50:31
subject: <b>Interesting...</b>
body:
But one major flaw. Such an act would have been revealed in Rand al'Thor's point of view.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I lost the game.</font><p></p>


created: 2008-04-14 17:37:05
subject: <b>&quot;Oh, god, no&quot;</b>
body:
My biggest argument against this particular theory--that &quot;Rand was death&quot; and &quot;death took him&quot;--although I don't believe that Rand killed Asmodean, either--is that if Robert Jordan said, &quot;Oh, God, no,&quot; (and he apparently did) to the idea that it was Moridin (whose name actually MEANS death) that &quot;took him&quot;, then he wouldn't have done it like this, either.  <br />Which pretty much pisses me off, because I thought Moridin was the most &quot;intuitively obvious&quot; (although I still vote for Lanfear!).<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">May you find shade this morning.</font><p></p>


created: 2009-07-23 11:02:55
subject: <b>sounds good???</b>
body:
You make some good points,I like the theory .I really like the idea that Rand gets his revenge on all these bad guys .He has really stepped up and kicked ass .Keep it up ,great theory.


created: 2003-09-05 08:37:39
subject: <b>Good Call!</b>
body:
I had often wondered about that..<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>&quot;Those who beat their swords into plowshares will plow for those who don't.&quot; - Thomas Jefferson</i><br /><br /> PSUCOM Class of '09</font><p></p>


created: 2003-09-05 11:09:13
subject: <b>I disagree</b>
body:
I always assumed the question was rhetorical.  I think most Aes Sedai who were in the tower would know her by face.  She was one of three of the strongest accepted/novices in a thousand years.  The ajahs seem to compete for finding such women, so I would think many would have come to take a look at her.<br /><br />If not, your answer would certainly cover it.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">May you be successful  in all your projects.<br /><br />I am a pastafarion.  The Flying Spaghetti Monster created the universe, and no one in Kansas can prove me wrong.<br /><br />http://www.vengaza.org</font><p></p>


created: 2003-09-05 11:27:27
subject: <b>Well, it could have been just plain that they new her face</b>
body:
It is widely known in the WT that Egwene is the rebel Amyrlin.  Also it is pointed in a few places that Egwene together with Nynaeve and Elayne occasioned a large discussion in the WT so many AS actually knew of them and probably encountered them in the tower.  Additionally if the captors were Black Ajah, they may have been additional descriptions of the girls since there was a request for Egwene and Nynaeve to be captured and send to Seanchan in the 2nd book.  Many reasons there pal but none can be truly conclusive.  I seem to believe that they recognized her right away, not after searching her.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-09-05 11:41:07
subject: <b>I'd have to agree with the last two posts</b>
body:
I don't really remember anything in the books hinting that the captors didn't recognize her right away.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">--If they ever come up with a swashbuckling School, I think one of the courses should be Laughing, Then Jumping Off Something--</font><p></p>


created: 2003-09-05 13:08:22
subject: <b>To bme, GameMaster &amp; Captain Awesome</b>
body:
As I pointed out the Aes Sedai didn't recognize Egwene otherwise the question &quot;Do you know who this is?&quot; would be quite strange.<br /><br />It's also surely not a rhetorical question, bme.<br />We read that the Aes Sedai were already talking with excited voices when Egwene wakes. <br />It would be very odd if after some talk one Aes Sedai suddenly asks the other (rhetotical) if she knows who the girl is. <br />And also the answer &quot;Well, well. We certainly got better...&quot; shows that the other Aes Sedai didn't take it rhetorical.<br /><br />It makes more sense that Egwene was searched, the Aes Sedai found the stole, they were excited about it and then one asked the other who the girl could be.<br /><br />Besides, I think even if an Aes Sedai already saw Egwene once they wouldn't recognize her. <br />It's quite dark, Egwene is completely wet (especially her hair), she wears plain clothes and also Egwene thinks shortly before this scene &quot;without the stole dangling from her neck, she could have been anyone&quot;.<br /><br />Finally, as Game Master said &quot;if the captors were Black Ajah, they may have been additional descriptions of the girls&quot;. <br />That the Aes Sedai need the stole to recognize Egwene's worth indicates that they are in fact not BA.


created: 2003-09-05 13:26:17
subject: <b>Even if they did not recognize her in the dark?</b>
body:
I tend to believe they recognized her from her face rather then from searching her pockets.  They had no reason to search her pockets, they wanted the person.  Remember the black ajah did not search Egwene when they got them in Tear and left her the dreaming terangreal.  Also there's no proof nor comment that could suggest that they were NOT Black Ajah or otherwise.  It is very possible that they were BA.  They  just recognized her man, and either way it makes no friggin difference.  Perhaps someone came later and said Do you know who this is? or perhaps she wasn't unconcious for a very long time, she could have come to herself as soon as they took her out of the water.  Geez!!!


created: 2003-09-05 14:15:04
subject: <b>If you put the em-phasis on the other syl-lable...</b>
body:
it makes sense that they recognized her right off and one of them still made the remark.<br /><br />&quot;Do you know who this IS?&quot; with the right tone and the emphasis placed on the correct words would indicate excitement over their grand luck at capturing the Rebel Amyrlin.  The speaker isn't necessarily asking their companion if they recognize Egwene the person; she is asking if her companion recognizes how lucky they got capturing her.<br /><br />At least, that's the way I always read it.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />  Erith  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />The higher, the fewer.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-09-05 14:17:37
subject: <b>Oh yeah, and</b>
body:
it would also explain why the companion's answering remark was, &quot;Well, we certainly got better than we bargained for tonight.&quot;<br /><br />Whether they knew who she was by recognition or by searching her possessions is kind of a moot point, IMO.  They have her, they know her, she's in trouble.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />  Erith  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />The higher, the fewer.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-09-05 17:27:27
subject: <b>I agree that I don't agree</b>
body:
I always read that as rhetorical, with the empasis on &quot;is&quot;. But I could be wrong...<br /><br />Have you noticed how people recognize other by written or oral accounts. I'd need to see a photo, and even then I'd have a hard time. Do these people have good powers or perception, or have I just been warped by television?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Pronounced: &quot;Rand was here&quot;<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shakefist.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-09-05 17:52:23
subject: <b>Why wouldn't they know what she looked like?</b>
body:
If you were faceing an invading rebel army wouldn't you put up signs of some sort with pictures of the rebel leader and what they looked like, probably with some reward for capture?  During WWI most every one in America knew what the Kaiser looked like, probably the same here.  Oh and yes you have been warped by television voices are writeing styles are very distinctive, though I would have a hard time distinguishing people from them as well (sigh)


created: 2003-09-05 18:25:58
subject: <b>I gave a thumb up...</b>
body:
Another small detail picked up by Etzel.  I agree, with her water-logged, bedraggled, no one could recognize her immediately.  Certainly, I wouldn`t.  It makes perfect sense that they found the Amyrlin sash.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2003-09-05 18:44:29
subject: <b>what about her strength in the power?</b>
body:
they could all sense that. i dont know what that would mean exactly but, if her captors were BA they might be pumped to turn someone so powerful to the dark. i mean egwene is stronger than cadsuane the strongest aes sedia in ect. or perhaps that is how, if they werent black sisters, they knew they caught the rebel amyrlin as well. i mean there are no sisters in the tower with egwenes strength.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Whelp, I'm rich! So long losers who I've always hated.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-09-05 20:13:39
subject: <b>NO</b>
body:
the reason why they are excited is because they (and im pretty sure about this) is that they knew who the rebel amyrlin was and, from Egwene's time in the tower, knew what she looked like because of all the talk they she created due to her strenght in the One Power.


created: 2003-09-06 03:20:57
subject: <b>Some replies</b>
body:
To RandThor, <br /><br /><b> I tend to believe they recognized her from her face rather then from searching her pockets. They had no reason to search her pockets, they wanted the person. Remember the black ajah did not search Egwene when they got them in Tear and left her the dreaming terangreal. Also there's no proof nor comment that could suggest that they were NOT Black Ajah or otherwise. It is very possible that they were BA. They just recognized her man, and either way it makes no friggin difference. Perhaps someone came later and said Do you know who this is? or perhaps she wasn't unconcious for a very long time, she could have come to herself as soon as they took her out of the water. Geez!!! </b><br /><br />Of course they had reasons to search her pockets. Note that no one knew Egwene wanted to go. So they expected someone else. They maybe wanted to find weapons and find out who the girl is.<br />It's pretty clear that Egwene wasn't captured by the BA (who probably knew Egwene). <br />Consider to read the theory &quot;The Tower Ajah&quot; by Sir_Lancelittle.<br /><br /><br />To Shaitan&#174;,<br /><br /><b> And what the hell is the difference of when they found out who she was??? I can't think of one. </b><br /><br />You (and some other people) missed the point of my theory. <br />I wanted to explain the dialogue which confused some people and doesn't seem to make real sense.<br /><br />Also it could play a role if the captors know that they have Egwene or if they just believe to have a person with some worth as they did at the moment.<br />Or, if the Tower Ajah shows the Rebel Ajah the stole it could be used as a proof that they have captured Egwene.<br /><br />Maybe someone else has other ideas.<br />After all RJ let Egwene take the stole with her and not let it in her rooms. <br />I'm sure he had a reason.<br /><br /><br />To all who think all Aes Sedai should know Egwene's face,<br /><br />I said something about this in my last reply. It was dark, Egwene just fished out of the water with plain clothes.<br /><br />The last time Egwene was in TV is around a year ago. In this time Egwene experienced quite much, in the Aiel Waste and as Amyrlin. I think that surely her face changed a bit and seems now more adult or hard, not the face of a young Accepted anymore.<br />Even in her time in TV surely not all Aes Sedai knew her face (and some Aes Sedai have returned recently to the Tower!)<br /><br />Besides, the Aes Sedai didn't expect the Rebel Aes Sedai.<br />And since there are many new female channeler with the Rebel Aes Sedai also Egwene's strength couldn't identify her (e.g. Sharina is stronger than Egwene)<br /><br />All in all it's pretty clear that the Aes Sedai couldn't recognize Egwene and that indicates also that they are not BA. <br />Only the stole gave them a clue that the girl could be someone important.    <br />


created: 2003-09-06 04:16:49
subject: <b>Sorry Etzel, I disagree</b>
body:
Every time I read that passage, the question looks rhetorical, made to look even more so, by the other one's response.<br /><br /> Not only that though, you say that most AS wouldn't know who Egwene is. I strongly disagree with that statement. Her, Elayne and Nynaeve elicited too much comment upon their arrival in TV. Add to this that Elayne says there is only 40 Novices in the WT, and only seven or eight will go on to become Accepted. That is not that many new faces to distinguish; about the size of a normal classroom of students at any school in the U.S. Most teachers would be able to recognize their students faces after only a few days, and put names to faces within a few weeks, IMO. But we are talking about one of the three wonder girls here. One whose potential makes her stand out. Even in wet hair and plain clothes, I think she would be easily recognized.<br /><br /> You also assume they have searched her and found the stole. I see no conclusive evidence to back this up, although that is not to say that they haven't found it, or won't.<br /><br /> I WILL agree that Jordan mentioned her taking it with her for a reason, though. <br /><br /> It is evidence. It will be used against her at her trial for impersonating the Amyrlin.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2003-09-06 09:19:05
subject: <b>Light in the Night</b>
body:
<b> Every time I read that passage, the question looks rhetorical, made to look even more so, by the other one's response. </b><br /><br />I read the passage so that after some time Egwene slowly awakes. First she feels that she is lying on a hard ground. Then seh hears women voices. Then she realizes that these voices are xcited. Then she comprehends what the women are talking.<br />If this is correct the Aes Sedai were already talking some time and waited till Egwene awakes to give her the cup to drink. <br />Note that the cup was already filled and everything prepared when Egwene awakes.<br /><br />Then it would be strange that this rhetorcial question was first asked at this point. <br />It makes more sense to me that they searched Egwene, found the stole and this was of course a big surprise for them therefore they sounded excited. <br />They discuss about the stole a bit and then one Aes Sedai asks the other in principle as I understand it:&quot;[Oh my god how exciting she has the Amyrlin stole in her possession] do <i> you </i> know who this is?&quot;   <br />And the other says:&quot;[Not really though I have a suspicion but] Well, well. [It seems] we have certainly got better than we bargained for tonight [concering the stole she had].&quot;  <br /><br /><b> Not only that though, you say that most AS wouldn't know who Egwene is. I strongly disagree with that statement. Her, Elayne and Nynaeve elicited too much comment upon their arrival in TV. Add to this that Elayne says there is only 40 Novices in the WT, and only seven or eight will go on to become Accepted. That is not that many new faces to distinguish; about the size of a normal classroom of students at any school in the U.S. Most teachers would be able to recognize their students faces after only a few days, and put names to faces within a few weeks, IMO. But we are talking about one of the three wonder girls here. One whose potential makes her stand out. Even in wet hair and plain clothes, I think she would be easily recognized. </b><br /><br />I think not. <br />There were many hundred ( 800? don't know...) Aes Sedai in the WT when Egwene and the other were Novices.<br />Most of these Aes Sedai aren't teachers and don't have to do with the Novices classes.<br />Of course I agree that every sister in the WT heard of the three wonder girls. But that doesn't mean that everyone saw them often and would match the right name to their face a year after they left the WT (especially in the circumstances in this scene).<br />Thus I think the stole was needed to realize Egwene's worth.<br /><br />Besides, many Aes Sedai returned to the WT after the coup. That means they had never the chance to see Egwene's face.<br /><br /><br /><b> You also assume they have searched her and found the stole. I see no conclusive evidence to back this up, although that is not to say that they haven't found it, or won't. </b><br /><br />It makes sense that they searched Egwene. <br />Especially if they couldn't recognize her what the dialogue indicates in my view.<br /><br /><b> I WILL agree that Jordan mentioned her taking it with her for a reason, though. <br />It is evidence. It will be used against her at her trial for impersonating the Amyrlin. </b><br /><br />That's possible. I have also a scene of Book 11 in my mind with Elaida accusing Egwene of her betrayal, the Rebel Amyrlin stole in her hand.<br /><br />On the other hand, surely all Aes Sedai know that Egwene is the Rebel Amyrlin. <br />If as you say every Aes Sedai knows her face then the stole isn't really needed to proof her betrayal. <br />But the stole could be a proof to convince all Aes Sedai in the Hall that the girl before them is indeed the Rebel Amyrlin Egwene since she had the Amyrlin stole in her possession.<br />


created: 2003-09-06 15:28:07
subject: <b>Ok is this voting rigged??</b>
body:
Most replies are AGAINST this proposal by Etzel, but the voting indicates otherwise? hmmm.  I still think the emphasis was on IS!!  Etzel stop rigging the voting <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-09-07 04:17:52
subject: <b>GameMaster</b>
body:
It seems a silent majority believes my theory is right. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />But you should say something to the points I've brought up in my blackboard replies!<br />You just think that the emphasis was on is?


created: 2003-09-09 05:40:37
subject: <b>As I see it...</b>
body:
It looks to me that the question is asked with a note of surprise. The answer, &quot;Well, well. We certainly got better than we bargained for tonight.&quot; And if you read down to the second to last sentence, it says, &quot;She had been betrayed.&quot;<br /><br />I think that a spy (Chesa) for the WT told the plans for that night. The Aes Sedai expected to find Bode, and were pleasently surprised to find Egwene. I also think that they had no need to search her, they would have known her on sight.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Dinkle Donkle, Dinkle Donkle<br />Someone's calling you.<br />GOULET!<br /><br /><b> <font color="C11B17"> <br />Yvonne</font> APPROVED! </b></font><p></p>


created: 2003-09-09 12:15:30
subject: <b>Of course they are surprised....</b>
body:
<b> It looks to me that the question is asked with a note of surprise. The answer, &quot;Well, well. We certainly got better than we bargained for tonight.&quot; And if you read down to the second to last sentence, it says, &quot;She had been betrayed.&quot; </b><br /><br />because they found the Amyrlin stole in the pocket of a woman who seemed to be an Accepted!<br /><br /><b> I think that a spy (Chesa) for the WT told the plans for that night. The Aes Sedai expected to find Bode, and were pleasently surprised to find Egwene. I also think that they had no need to search her, they would have known her on sight. </b><br /><br />But how can you assume that all Aes Sedai know Egwene's face? <br />Read my comments above for my view.<br />


created: 2003-09-15 16:12:55
subject: <b>Maybe</b>
body:
They seemed to talk right after they found her, though. Another possibility, however, is that the AS in the tower knew who was leading the rebals, which is not a great leap in logic, and one of the women seemed to recognize her. Perhaps she was a teacher, or she had seen her in the halls before. <br /><br />But I think the best bet are those &quot;Darkfriend hunters.&quot; They've got the Rebel AS in the tower under their thumb, and very likely have had them spill all sorts of information about the Rebels. Including Egwene's appearance. That would also explain why there were AS waiting there at all. The Rebel AS could have tried to get a message to their &quot;insiders&quot; about the seige, or the infiltraition, or anything. They, in turn, had to give the message up to the darkfriend hunters.


created: 2003-09-16 13:05:10
subject: <b>Another little point</b>
body:
is that Egwene apparently doesn't recognize the women voices and the face of one of the Aes Sedai.<br /><br />That also shows that they were not teachers of Egwene or other Aes Sedai she met in the WT. <br />


created: 2003-09-16 21:09:56
subject: <b>Alaisa Askala-</b>
body:
The rebel AS in the WT held by the Black Ajah Hunters, left Salidar before Egwene arrived.  There is nothing they can tell about Egwene or all the new discoveries, or about the SAS plans.<br /><br />You say that the rebels may have been in contact with the ferrets, but that is so unlikely as to be nonexistant.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2004-02-29 15:21:58
subject: <b>Has to know her</b>
body:
Logicaly (God I sound like a White(God I'm obsessed)) it would have to be someone who knew Egwene personally, either as a novice or from elsewhere because, as she has not taken the three oaths, she will not have the ageless Aes Sedai face, so anyone who does not know her will not think of her as Aes Sedai, much less the rebel Amrylin<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" />The wheel wills as the wheel wells...no wait...the wheel wills as the weel wells...hang on...the wheel weaves as the wheel walls...errr...the wheel...you know what? Sh*t Happens.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />I apologise here for the awful spelling in the message</font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-08 10:02:02
subject: <b>The question is not how the found out.....</b>
body:
thats important. The reason is they found out wether they recognized her or found the sash. The point is they KNOW who they have captured. <br /><br />The important ? is WHO captured her? The BA or the WTAS. I find it more likely that it was the BA personally. Concidering atlest one of the forsaken has an interst and has had one since b4 Falme. Also you have to remember the SAS has a forsaken in there midst who has been trying to ruin Egwanes plans by killing off her confidants. While it could have been Nicola that tipped someone off i dont thingk so. Halima(FORSAKEN) is there and would know the BA and send someone to stop Egwanes plan. While getting her was a treat and that is more likely the reason they were happy about getting who they got. <br /><br />The WT getting there or setting a trap would be unlikly. Yes they might thik that someone would try to sink ships in the harbor would be a reasonable thought. But having someone go to the chains only and either pull them down or making them Cuendillar would be something i dont think they would think of. You have to remember AS arenot stupid why would they think someone would be stupid enough to do that especially other AS. They may not respect what the SAS are doing but they know they are facing AS nontheless. So i dont think it was WTAS the just happend to be there. Too coincidental for me. <br /><br />Just my 2 coppers.<br />Ashandari<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I killed the whole world, and you can too, if you try hard.<br />     -Lews Therin Telamon<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" />Me and Gabril have a wager.....and i never lose<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-11-18 10:19:30
subject: <b>Huuhhhh...</b>
body:
Well, I wasn't going along with your theory until I read the part where you assumed they searched her belt pouch.  That works.  I always took the dialogue to mean &quot;Do you know who this is&quot; as in, &quot;Holy cow!  Can you believe who we just caught?&quot;  and &quot;We certainly got better than we bargained for tonight&quot; to mean that they clearly meant only to catch a Novice or Accepted to use as a hostage, based upon the plans the spies within the Little Tower were reporting, but wow!  They acutally had the Amyrlin come to do the deed.<br /><br />The interesting thing here is that clearly the sisters who captured Egwene are Black.  They used Air to strike her on the head...as a weapon.  So there are no Three Oaths binding at least the two who captured her.  Definitely adds some spice to this scene and I can't wait for Knife of Dreams to see what happens to Egwene, my favorite character!  *biting nails*


created: 2007-11-22 08:07:06
subject: <b>it's been said before but...</b>
body:
She one of the strongest women in a long time, people will <br /><br />a. know what she looks like<br /><br />b. hear from other people what she looks like &amp; sense how strong she is instantly and then easily make the connection


created: 2003-09-05 11:42:03
subject: <b>Good long theory, but</b>
body:
1) Jordan said it was Graendal<br /><br />2) He said when someone asked him, &quot;Was 'when death took him' a pun for Moridin?&quot; something like, &quot;Dear God, no!&quot;<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br /><i>I will try. Before surrendering to dreams or death, I will try.<font color="black"></font></i></font><p></p>


created: 2003-09-05 11:42:24
subject: <b>Ok you started ok but then you went crazy!</b>
body:
I didn't feel like finishing the whole theory because you started assuming many things afterwards and started to answer many other questions that could have many answers but forgot to stick to the main question.  I do agree that it is a very good possibility that Moridin killed Asmo, and the reason that Rand did not notice anything is because Moridin was using the True Power and not saidin.  This alone can have most other channelers disqualified, yes even Greandal because at least Aviendha would have felt something.  But it leaves the question of how did Asmodean recognize his killer.  There was a recognition there in the last statement of Asmodean.  Moridin definitely has a new face, and if he was skulking then he wouldn't have made his appearance clear to Asmodean.  So I voted no.  It is possible that Moridin did communicate to Asmodean via dreams though, but no evidence of that.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-09-05 11:45:39
subject: <b>To Crazy Ole Lews Therin</b>
body:
RJ did not say Greandal was the killer.  He was just agreeing with a fan sarcastically.  RJ has not told anyone who the killer was!!!!!!!!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-09-05 12:08:24
subject: <b>Problem</b>
body:
When Ishamael has been watching in the real world, characters usually notice him... Aviendha, Rand, etc... he seems to attract their eyes. Someone would have noticed him in Caemlyn that day had he been there. I still believe it was one of the Forsaken plotting with Rahvin, likely Graendal.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">kinghomer <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />&#8220;Marge, don&#8217;t discourage the boy. Weaseling out of things is important to learn. It&#8217;s what separates us from the animals &#8230; except the weasel.&#8221;</font><p></p>


created: 2003-09-05 12:13:31
subject: <b>Some doubts..</b>
body:
Most of the theory concentrates on proving Ishamael was alive before his first official appearance as Moridin. That seems clear. Yet I'm not certain if his motive is as strong a proof as Rand's after Moiraine's death he might've actually indirectly blamed Asmodean for, like Etzel wrote. Else, there are so many good points I wouldn't rip the theory to shreds at the first sight..<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />


created: 2003-09-05 12:14:32
subject: <b>Nah...</b>
body:
Still don't think it was him. <br />But congratulations on getting your looooooooong theory posted. U lucky bast.rd! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />


created: 2003-09-05 12:50:31
subject: <b>not so sure</b>
body:
Could it have been Moridin?  Yes.  Was it?  I am not so sure.  I agree he was likely around for a while before we first really see him named.  The saa are your best argument for that.  Some of the other stuff could easily be covered by standing orders.  How would Slayer know Ishamael was dead?  He was told ot hunt down and kill Fain. Same with the killing of Bor's family.  Kill them, one a month, until you hear otherwise from me.<br /><br />I still lke Graendal.  The whole hair on his neck tingling right before he buys it.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">May you be successful  in all your projects.<br /><br />I am a pastafarion.  The Flying Spaghetti Monster created the universe, and no one in Kansas can prove me wrong.<br /><br />http://www.vengaza.org</font><p></p>


created: 2003-09-05 12:52:17
subject: <b>Thumb up for me!</b>
body:
Because I really like your thoughts, that you doubt the common believe that Graendal must be the killer and present many good &amp; important points to discuss.<br /><br />We really don't know when Ishy was back in Randland. <br />I tend to think it was shortly after the beginning or in the middle of LoC. <br />So Moridin had probably still enough time (a few months) to get the Saa. But you could be right. <br />It would explain some things. <br />Indeed if Moridin was already alive in TFoH and the DO ordered to kill Asmodean, then Moridin, his most trustful servant, should be the best/only choice not Graendal.<br /><br />But somehow I doubt that Moridin would show Asmo the old Ishy face for the split second till his death. Why?<br />Though it would explain Asmo's horror since he believed Ishy was dead, and probably all Forsaken were a bit afraid of him.<br /><br />Well, I don't believe that Moridin killed Asmo. <br />But you convinced me that it's at least possible that Moridin killed Asmodean! <br />Other people will of course say that Moridin isn't <i> obvious </i> in RJ's sense but the obvious argument is quite a nonsense in my eyes (that shows alone the long lasting discussion).<br /><br />My mind says Graendal killed Asmodean, while my heart says Sammael did it. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> <br />I hope we will RAFO it sometime... <br />


created: 2003-09-05 14:19:34
subject: <b>Huh?</b>
body:
Your theory goes everywhere... it rambles.  And I don't agree with Ishamael killing Asmodean.  <br /><br />I do agree that Moridin (Ishamael) was active before the first time we see him.  That makes sense to me.


created: 2003-09-05 14:25:37
subject: <b>Intuitively Obvious?</b>
body:
Your theory requires a lot of careful thinking and analysis. That Moridin existed in Fires of Heaven is NOT intuitively obvious. That required a lot of detective work which you appear to have done rather well.<br /><br />And don't forget that Asmodean shivered before opening the door. That is the reaction of any male channeler get from sensing a woman channeling.<br /><br />Allow me to attempt clearing the mud out by referring you to the Two Servants Theory in Encyclopaedia WoT: http://www2.photeus.com:8090/~ewot/main/theories.html<br /><br />The absence of Rand's sensing male channeling and Asmodean's shiver makes Graendal more likely than Sammael in that theory.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Gaeran Amaconde<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />Grand Historian at the Court of the Sun<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />One of Those Chosen to Bring the Light<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" />Master of Graendal's Revels<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" />&quot;If sometimes our dreams come true, what of our nightmares?&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-09-05 14:34:03
subject: <b>your theory has too much speculation, not enough proof</b>
body:
you don't present any info really proving that it was Ishy, just that it could have been him.<br /><br />there's far more reliable evidence for other characters, specifically, graendal.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>&quot;Those who beat their swords into plowshares will plow for those who don't.&quot; - Thomas Jefferson</i><br /><br /> PSUCOM Class of '09</font><p></p>


created: 2003-09-05 14:54:26
subject: <b>How Much OP does it take?</b>
body:
i'd imagine it wouldn't take alot to kill Asmodean ...why? suprise..he's walking in the room with no alertness ...his mind was wandering and he's not use to killers on the other side of the door... Now Rand and Company are NOT close enuff to hear him scream...so unless a Gateway is made or a huge bar of Balefire was used they'd not notice it... so Graendal did it... she escaped the palace by MOM with inverted weaves since a gateway was to risky near Rand and his friends and used a small bar of Balefire or another means...as he's opening the door she could have had weaves ready so the death was instant... so i doubt it was Ishy...could have been but doubt it


created: 2003-09-05 17:21:36
subject: <b>hey daymon</b>
body:
You realize of course the same arguments you gave could apply to more than just graendel right?<br /><br />Just to bring that up...<br /><br />As for the theory, i think it got bogged down.  I only got half-way through it before I decided to stop.  It went of on using slick thinking to prove the supposition and a lot of &quot;this quote could mean Ishmael reborn was already active&quot;.<br /><br />Overall I think there was just too much info and a lot wasn't necessary.<br /><br />But yes I believe Moridin was active before we were introduced (and Shaidar Haran for that matter, I always thought the Fade who visited Carridin was Shaidar Haran).<br /><br />But no I don't think it was Moridin who killed Asmo for all the reason's listed above.  I lean most towards Sammael (though I love the idea of LTT taking over and doing the deed), although I will give credit and say Graendel is a strong possibility as well (since mostly those 2 use the same evidence...)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Fyatuk Loth<br />Pope Consort to Grand Mistress Krista Sedai<br />Minister to the Way of What<br />Warder to Egwene Dreamwalker (donate WSe please)<br /><br />Currently stalking Belals Girl.<br /><br />WTF?</font><p></p>


created: 2003-09-05 17:45:56
subject: <b>saa problem</b>
body:
You seem to assume right from the begining that moridin is ishy reborn which though it is most likey true hasn't been proven absolutley.  Also you are assuming that the Saa are a body effect I always thought they were more of a soul/mind effect since addiction comes from that even in real life.  Useing this thought proceses he should have the same amount of Saa regardless of his new body simply because his soul the essence of what is him (which isn't his body) has accessed the true source the same number of times as before.  Just my thoughts.


created: 2003-09-05 18:38:13
subject: <b>wait a minute</b>
body:
to dacole: how much friggin proof do you need that ishamael is moridin?? its him, trust me. 2) the if the saa carried over through the mind/soul moridin would have flaming eyes.<br /><br />anyway i like this theory there is ALOT that you pieced together here, im not convinced ishamael is the killer, but, regardless of what jordan said about the pun on death, i think it is possible he did it. good work!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Whelp, I'm rich! So long losers who I've always hated.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-09-05 19:15:57
subject: <b>Great theory</b>
body:
You spelled it out perfectly.<br /><br />Some responses above say they didn`t read the whole theory. Then they fail to see your logic. It has more going for it than Graendal.  Also, if Moridin did the deed, then the DO could well have used Asmodean`s essence to enhance Shaidar Haran`s power.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2003-09-05 21:43:10
subject: <b>In responce to Gaeran</b>
body:
Intuitively obvious to the _most casual observer_.<br /><br />Meaning Rand defeated Ishy once, twice, why wouldn't he still be around.  If you remember back to the end of 2 beginning of 3 Rand thought Ishy was dead, but he wasn't.<br /><br />Also, getting a general feel of the things that happen means that while you can remember exactly all the evidence you can draw conculsions through intuition.<br /><br />All the author did was put all the general feelings we have and provided specific examples.<br /><br />I give it thumbs up.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Well Mom, that's because I hate your cretinous friends, and if I did somehow get drunk and knocked up, I'd be skewering your unborn grandchild with a knitting needle right now.<br /><br />-Krakow 2.0<br /><br />http://www.nerdparadise.com</font><p></p>


created: 2003-09-05 22:17:33
subject: <b>Powerful</b>
body:
It was worth my time to read your theory.  Good job.  I agree that it is posible for Ishy to have been the killer, but at this point in the WOT game who cares.  I just want it all to be over.  Good job<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Chronically late reader of posts and theories <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br />King of the Rejected Theory <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Founder of the WOT Old Bastard League (WOBL)<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/thom.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-09-06 03:18:33
subject: <b>Yes, it was a long theory</b>
body:
But I just so happen to be a fan of long theories, as long as they have some bite to them. I felt you did a great job in searching out so many quotes in so many books. All of them relevant in some way or another to bolster your argument. <br /><br /> I have long been convinced that Ishy/Moridin was around a lot longer than we knew because of the saa. Likewise, I am also pretty confident that if BF was the means used to kill Asmo, then it was the TP that was used. Rand and Aviendha were too close, to not have sensed someone channeling even a weak flow of BF. Also, the way his voice hung in the air like Bel'al's did when he was BF'd is well documented, making it the most likely means of death.<br /><br /> I felt you did a good job overall. To those that thought it too long, what else are you here for if not for the enjoyment of reading something WoT related? Heaven only knows when we will get our next fix from RJ. <br /><br /> One nit-pik though. You kept refering to the &quot;fancloth skulkers mask, made from the True Power.&quot; I thought that fancloth was the same cloth from which Warders cloaks are made. According to Vandene, in tPoD, this cloth is produced by a ter'angreal made for that purpose, and was quite stylish in the AOL, as we learn through the POV of Charn, in Rand's trip through the Glass Columns of Rhuidean, in TSR.<br /><br /> Anyway, I give it a thumbs up for the possibility of being right.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2003-09-06 14:08:08
subject: <b>Moridin has no evedence for him.</b>
body:
All your theory shows us is that Moridin was reborn before we saw him. There is no evedence to show that Moridin was the killer, only that he has been around.<br /><br />And your first ponint, the DOs power over death, on Theoryland.com there is a good sized debate over how much souls can be controlled. We came to the conclusion that the DO has control over souls sworn to him. If there were more souls he controlled, then why not just have the Dragon reborn early, and turned to the do with 13 BA and 13 Fades. <br /><br />Lan's comment I always believed to mean that eventually everyone dies, unless they serve the DO, in which case they live forever unless killed, like the Forsaken do. Gode could just be an example of darkfriend ignorance.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sir, I admit your general rule<br />That every poet is a fool.<br />But you yourself may serve to show it,<br />That every fool is not a poet.<br /> <br />Shendolin Valderen on the RPG <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-09-07 14:15:10
subject: <b>Just a minor point...</b>
body:
Slayer was responsible for the deaths of Amico and Joiya.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Luck is a horse to ride like any other<br /><br />StaffWielder@wotmania.com</font><p></p>


created: 2003-09-08 05:45:06
subject: <b>The reason..</b>
body:
that we say it was slayer is....<br /><br /><br />#1. no channeling needed. he can pop in and out of T'A'R at will, AND can take other objects with him. (poisoned daggers etc) so why not a corpse?<br /><br />#2. Balefire. even moirane a FEMALE CHANNELER, can sense the &quot;residue&quot; of rand's balefire, so BF using a different &quot;source&quot; makes no difference.<br /><br />(by the way, great evidence of Ishy being around, i liked that part)<br /><br />i just havent found ANY evidence that it was graendal.<br /><br />slayer is used only by the forsaken, from one of his POV's, and as such i'm sure asmo would have recognised him, there was no weaves to sense etc.<br /><br />i think we need a good discussion on the MB about pointers either way between graendal + slayer<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Seeking Aes Sedai for Bondage... uhh bonding. <br /><br />We rode on the winds of the rising storm,<br />We ran to the sounds of the thunder,<br />We danced among the lightning bolts,<br />and tore the world asunder.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-09-08 11:19:22
subject: <b>You - No! - means no to this theory</b>
body:
I agree Ish/Moridin was around during the time Asmo was killed, but the key point you bring up at the end of your theory is its downfall. Asmo knew his killer and Moridin has a new face - Asmo would not have known him.  <br /><br />I do not buy the explanation that Moridin put Ishy's face on to get the satisfaction of Asmo knowing who killed him.  Moridin has shown himself to be much more cagey and secretive than Ishy ever was.  He does not gloat in front of the other Forsaken about being Na'eblis, he just demands their obediance. <br /><br />I do not think he would have needed the ego satisfaction of having Asmo know who killed him - quite the opposite - he would have used his new face, done it quickly and efficiently, and been gone.


created: 2003-09-08 15:59:02
subject: <b>grandael using the tp?</b>
body:
don't have a quote readily at hand, but at various times in the books, the forsaken have mentioned that they can use the tp in great need or with permission from the dark one.  is it not possible that it was granny using the tp?? i think the d.o. would consider killing a traitor acceptable use of tp.


created: 2003-09-08 23:11:53
subject: <b>2 things...</b>
body:
first, to Crazy ol Lews Therin - He said when someone asked him, &quot;Was 'when death took him' a pun for Moridin?&quot; something like, &quot;Dear God, no!&quot;<br /><br />Jorden didn't say, no, it was not Mordin, all he said was that no, it wasn't intended to be a pun... and besides, if Mordin didn't acctually take him away, then the pun would not be applicable.<br /><br />and second<br /><br />I liked the theory... I'm not sure if I agree that it was mordin who killed asmo, but I liked the evidence showing that Mordin was around and active early in the series. very nice theory...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">___________________<br />Evilmonkey<br /><br /><i>&quot;Madness waits for some. It creeps up on others.&quot;</i><br />-Lews Therin Telamon</font><p></p>


created: 2003-09-09 10:06:17
subject: <b>a few thoughts....</b>
body:
It seems to me that Moridin cant be Asmo's killer for the simple fact that he (Asmo) recognized him. Remember when Asmo first sees his killer he says &quot;You?&quot;. This means he knows his killer by sight. The other Chosen that have met Moridin did not recoginize him...why is it that Asmo would? RJ did say we can deduce who killed Asmo by the clues he left in the books. - some clues:<br /><br />* Asmo was killed either by Saidar or the TP (Hince Rand would have sensed it being in the close vicinity)<br />* Probably killed by balefire (no body/evidence) or the body was taken.<br />* Asmo recoginized his killer (as i say above)<br />- true Rand does have a limited ability to sense Saidar too, but could he have sensed that?<br /><br />I've only read the books twice so I'm no expert...I would appreciate any clues I might have missed.


created: 2003-09-10 14:38:56
subject: <b>I like it, I agree.</b>
body:
I like this theory and I agree with it.  Everybody has said he couldn&#8217;t recognize Moridin/Ishy.  But from the very first book, Ishy healed LTT so he could recognize and know who it was that brought him down and was going to kill him.  I do not find it unbelievable that he would let Asmo know who it was that was going to kill him.  Plus Asmo thought that Ishy was dead. All the forsaken feared Ishy, so the surprise and fear before he was terminated, would help explain that it was Moridin/Ishy.


created: 2003-09-11 03:31:35
subject: <b>Well done...</b>
body:
But I don't believe Moridin is Asmodean's killer, I think it was Slayer because that's his purpose in this life.<br /><br />Also...<br /><br />I interpreted &quot;You?&quot; as a moment of confusion because the person Asmodean thought he recognized standing there was last seen in Cairhien that same morning.<br /><br />Lan got on his horse and rode away after Lanfear and Moiraine fell through the ter'angreal.<br /><br />Isam (Slayer), by appearance could be Lan's brother. The two look that much alike that Perrin and Nynaeve both make note of the likeness. (TSR: 42, A Missing Leaf &amp; TSR: 39, A Cup of Wine) <br />


created: 2003-09-14 14:55:48
subject: <b>Graendal seems more likely</b>
body:
First off I don't think Moridin is the culprit because too much of the evidence for him doing the deed has to be found in the books after FoH. We've been told that we should have all the evidence we need in the first 5 books.<br /><br />   Also the strongest point to me about Greandal is that she seemed like a loose thread at the end of FoH. We were told earlier in the book that Ravhin had allied himself with Sammael and Graendal. Events in the fifth book give us a clear idea of what Sammael is up to, but Graendal doesn't ever seem to show up at all.<br /><br />   So to me it would seem that Graendal being unaccounted for makes her the perfect 'intuitvely obvious' killer. There's some more evidence that I could offer, but I'll save that for a theory of my own if I decide to do one.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-12-09 08:47:42
subject: <b>not very likely</b>
body:
You seem to forget that Asmodean is killed in an act of surprise, and as argumented before, very likely by a female channeler. As I dont have the book here with me, i cannot confirm it but I'm almost positive that Jordan states this.<br />this will easily remove Morridin as a possible killer. Morridin is very calm, he never rushes, and always fulfills the plans of DO.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Pain is my way of self expression<br />A fatal choise, haze above...<br /><br />Love what I kill,<br />Kill what I love<br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-07-12 08:43:28
subject: <b>I concur</b>
body:
Asmo's murderer's identity was cleared up as I began to reread the series again.  In Wheel of Time, the Prologue to the book.  Betrayer (Ishamael) did have the ego to show up to ensure the LTT knew the face of his killer.<br /><br />He even used the True Power to heal him so that he'd see the carnage he had wrought in his insanity.  I just noticed this part because Jordan uses the phrase that the sun seemed to darken when Betrayer embraced the source.<br /><br />Also, from what I've seen in the series, the book &quot;The World of Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time&quot;, and the WOT RPG campaign setting, Rand is one of the only males that can sense the use of the Female source.  <br /><br />


created: 2004-09-29 15:37:38
subject: <b>everyone knows that....</b>
body:
isamael is moridin.  bah  ^ ^'<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smackhead.gif" border="0" /><i><font color="blue">Stealer of Tigrs' Brain</font></i> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smackhead.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tinfoilhat.gif" border="0" /> <font color="red">Aes Sedai to Urza, Tayron, and Jojjo.</font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tinfoilhat.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> <font color="blue">Kuke will call you Prendergast Von Bimmle from now on.</font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" /> <i><font color="red">New mistress to Sheep, Slayer_2, &amp; Delireus!</font></i> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/crazy.gif" border="0" /> <font color="blue">Worshipper of Snoopster!</font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/crazy.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-11-21 10:24:36
subject: <b>i have a cunning plan...</b>
body:
i have just had an interesting thought. what if ishmael wasnt resurected normaly, but was put back into a 'repaired version' of his old one. i think that ishmaels death was planned by ishmael to guide rand down the path to tarmon gai'don. it therefore seems logical that he would be rewarded and he was, by being made nae'blis. maybe another reward was a choice of body, unlike aginoor and balthalmel, who died through their own weakness and were therefore given bodies that were convienient. i like the theory a lot by the way. having examined the evidence given it does appear slightly obivous that ishmael wasn't dead for good...again!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> let the speedbart ride again upon the winds of time <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Made the second post on the new WoTMB2 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-02-04 18:37:04
subject: <b>Very good</b>
body:
very detailed, slightly long winded, but very dietailed. My self, i've always believed whoever killed asmo had to be a channeler. but then, someone would sense them channeling. the true power is something i never thought of.<br /><br />this, of course, points to moridin, the only frequent user of the true power. in a roundabout way, i am definitely convinced moridin/ishmael could have done it. the only thing im unsure of, is would he do it? besides the small lack of a motive, this theory is very good.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">-Sabin<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2007-06-10 19:23:57
subject: <b>&quot;Intuitively&quot; - this makes the most sense!</b>
body:
I started to believe it must have been Ishamael/Moridin when I read the &quot;death took him&quot; part. Even though RJ has dismissed this pun as ridiculous, I kept feeling attracted to the theory of Moridin having killed Asmodean because of his means and motive. I.m.o. Asmodean was killed because he betrayed the Lord of the Dark, and because there was a good opportunity for the watcher to kill him without a trace. I fail to see how anyone else could do that without taking a heavy risk - a risk not countered by anything important enough to be caught.<br /><br />The whole Graendal case is just too much a matter of dismissing others, in my opinion. There's just no feeling of 'yes, she must have done it' in any way. When RJ tends to say RAFO and 'it's obvious' - to me that means, learn to interpret the characters, their interests and characteristics - not go about as a CSI agent and theorize on the detailed characteristis of the Eelfinn or the time it takes to slow aging because of channeling - this is all just too far-fetched. <br /><br />Graendal just doesn't fit the assassin profile - moving in the direct vicinity to the Dragon Reborn to make a useless kill; whatever Asmodean taught Rhand was already done anyway, why would someone with her careful personality avenge anything? Sammael or Demandred could have, but it's made more than clear that they didn't do it.<br /><br />Moridin / Ishamael, the sha'ra player, only concerned with power, the one with the fancloth skulker mask and the True Power at his disposal, has all the means to make a perfect clean kill. To me, he makes the perfect suspect, even if he wasn't introduced under this name at the time. Perhaps RJ was surprised about all the fuss about Asmodean's death because he thought it was clear it was the Lord of the Dark who ordered his death because of his treachery. And afterwards he put in some extra clues to help us sorry folk figure it out. Think about that.


created: 2007-06-11 14:04:19
subject: <b>Or..</b>
body:
Ishamael disguised as Lanfear.. now that certainly would drain the blood from Asmodean's face <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/clown.gif" border="0" />


created: 2003-09-05 19:00:48
subject: <b>yeah</b>
body:
i like it. also wasnt one of the AS killed good at reading saidin residue? maybe i imagined that, but anyway yes i agree thumbs up.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Whelp, I'm rich! So long losers who I've always hated.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-09-05 19:26:47
subject: <b>Or...</b>
body:
Believing in Egwene's Dreaming is certainly the most obvious explanation, but RJ has a penchant for using the obvious to disguise the hidden.  There's a good theory out there that Anaiya was Black Ajah, and the reasons for her death could very well relate to that.  How and why... perhaps only Halima knows.


created: 2003-09-05 19:34:44
subject: <b>That was always obvious to me</b>
body:
Kairen was killed because she was so good with cuendillar.That sounds like a theory to me!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2003-09-05 19:37:20
subject: <b>Maybe</b>
body:
It makes a good amount of sense, though I'm not entirely sold just yet.  Are there any other competing explanations or is this it?  After all, perhaps it is just Halima offing people in general who were close to Egwene, maybe to make it easier to manipulate her, or maybe one of her close advisors *wink *wink is BA, and Halima wants to get rid of the competition, so to speak.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">StanfordMatt0<br /><br />&quot;Don't blame me; I voted for Kodos&quot;<br /><br />We're # 1!  And I was there! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/recap?gameId=240380024</font><p></p>


created: 2003-09-06 05:57:18
subject: <b>Yeah, it's possible</b>
body:
Though I think another (main) purpose of the murder was to discredit the Asha'man and foil a possible cooperation between WT and BT in the future.<br /><br />Did Halima knew that Anaiya believed in Egwene's dreams? And if she knew did she really fear that Anaiya could convince the Hall? Anaiya apparently didn't convinced other Aes Sedai before her death and what could the Hall do at all if they believed that the Seanchan would attack one day?<br /><br />But it's possbile. Halima is Moridin's pet and he surely is informed about the early Seanchan attack.<br /><br />The other question is why Kairen was killed too. <br />The second murder with saidin indicates that Halima indeed wants to descredit the Asha'man. <br />Of course Kairen should turn the chain into cuendillar but why is this something the Shadow don't want?<br /><br />So your explaination is likely, but I also think it was especially important for Halima to make it plain to the Aes Sedai that both were killed with saidin.


created: 2003-09-06 11:09:18
subject: <b>Why Anaiya was REALLY killed</b>
body:
There are two interlocking reason she was killed.  It all starts with the assumption that no matter whether another Aes Sedai agreed with her, they liked her.  She reminded everyone of their mother or a kindly aunt.  Her death would be felt as a great tragedy.<br />So...<br />First, her death by Saidin means one of those Asha'men did it.  (At least to other Aes Sedai)  That drives a sharp wedge between the Asha'men and the Aes Sedai.  It taints their possibility of forming a lasting relationship.  Heck, the Aes Sedai don't trust themselves to be alone with one now.<br />Second, Sheriam is spying on Egwene, probably for the Shadow.  We have clues that it might be another Blue Ajah.  Aside from Sitters, which are too high profile a target, Anaiya is/was Ajah Head and influential outside her Ajah as well.  She also supported Egwene.  Her death forces Egwene to look to other Blues, say like...Sheriam, for more support, or to look to other Blues, say like one that's a Black Ajah.<br />If the Shadow can do all this in one murder, does that makes more sense than to worry about those prophetic dreams Egwene tells Halima?


created: 2003-09-06 13:22:27
subject: <b>Etzel</b>
body:
IMO, the Shadow doesn`t want the chain turned to cuendillar because that would make the siege effective, and bring to fruition a whole WT in a shorter period of time. The Shadow doesn`t want the AS united.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2003-09-06 14:11:12
subject: <b>Maigan, her replacement, was a pain in the butt</b>
body:
She hung out being rude in the Amyrlin's study for no obvious purpose, and unbeknownst to her and Egwene, she kept Myrelle from telling Egwene that Lan was near Shadar Logoth on the big day.  Maybe Arangar didn't like how close Egwene was to her council of advisors and wanted to break up the smoothly functioning team.  Remember, her tool, Delana, tried to sow suspicion between Egwene and the council by warning her that they were spying for their Ajah heads.  Anaiya could have been the first one Aran'gar had a shot at, or she might have an additional motive for targeting the Blue sister of the group.  In any case, she could have arranged for Maigan to replace Anaiya and told her to hang out and be a jerk so they can't plot together.  As for the possibility that Maigan was a Darkfriend, well she was in Fal Dara, and maybe she and Alviarin were helping Liandrin bust out Fain.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


created: 2003-09-06 15:59:54
subject: <b>Anaiya is also BA!</b>
body:
I believe that Anaiya is BA, no proof of that about Kairen though.  I guess it could have been more than one reason for their execution.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-09-06 18:33:44
subject: <b>Fools!</b>
body:
Really, and who says Halima can read Egwene's dreams? Egwene is one of the best, I think she would notice someone looking.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">PsyKyle<br /><i>Good heavens, that name sounds more cliche everytime I post...</i><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-09-07 04:26:50
subject: <b>jofraz</b>
body:
<b> IMO, the Shadow doesn`t want the chain turned to cuendillar because that would make the siege effective, and bring to fruition a whole WT in a shorter period of time. The Shadow doesn`t want the AS united. </b><br /><br />Possible. <br />Maybe it becomes more boody and more chaotic if the WT has still access to new soldiers and other supplies.<br />It would also indicate that Halima or the Shadow in general, had no interest that Egwene turned the chain and becomes imprisoned in TV. <br />So it's further evidence that Egwene is not in the hands of the BA. <br /><br />On the other hand, if the Shadow wants anyway that the Seanchan attack the WT soon it doesn't matter if the chain is cuendillar or not. <br />Also Bode and Leane who should turn the chain weren't killed by Halima.   <br />


created: 2003-09-07 15:42:14
subject: <b>Etzel...</b>
body:
...maybe Leane and Bode would have been the next to be killed if  Egwene had not pushed on with the turning...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gimli.gif" border="0" /> Llaydwhonn Gaidin <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gimli.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> The disguised Asha&#180;man <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> Still unbonded <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/r2d2.gif" border="0" /> Dedicated to the Black Ajah <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/r2d2.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-09-07 16:04:12
subject: <b>Etzel</b>
body:
Iagree with your theory that the Black Ajah did not capture Egwene.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2003-09-08 11:21:18
subject: <b>Llaydwhonn Gaidin</b>
body:
<b> maybe Leane and Bode would have been the next to be killed if Egwene had not pushed on with the turning </b><br /><br />Egwene did not quicken the turning. <br />She replaced Bode in the last moment before Bode herself was going to turn the chain.<br />If Halima wanted to foil the turning she had killed Leane and Bode earlier.


created: 2003-09-09 19:55:07
subject: <b>Well you've got me thinking......</b>
body:
I always thought it was just to sow seeds of chaos and terror.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>you know you can't leave Wotmania. It's kinda like herpes, you can just never really get rid of it.</i><br />Kit <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /></font><p><a href="http://www.cbgxtra.com/" target="_blank">Comics Buyer's Guide XTRA</a></p><p></p>


created: 2003-09-13 13:03:34
subject: <b>(Title)</b>
body:
I figured Halima was killing off Aes Sedai who could make cuendillar in order to force 1) the plan to be stopped OR 2) Egwene into being one of the Aes Sedai turning the chain.<br />Possibly a 3rd reason to kill them off: The Aes Sedai were also going to bring in money with the cuendillar items, and killing off those who were most proficient at the skill slowed down their ability to get money, lessening their chances of success.<br /><br />I don't think it has a thing to do with Egwene being a dreamer.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /> Survivor of Historical Inquizition ... barely <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Who can say if I've been changed for the better, but because I knew you I have been changed for good -- Wicked<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-09-06 05:11:32
subject: <b>Why not Siuan or Leane?</b>
body:
There's one thing that itches in the back of my head reading the theory and the follow-up posts.<br />Halima clearly has Egwene under some kind of compulsion (it's not directly stated anywhere in the books, but given the headaches and influence we can safely assume that).<br />Now if Halima is aware of all the plans and dreams of Egwene she would also know the influence of Leane and Siuan. <br /><br />Now killing Leane, with her eyes and ears inside the white tower and experience as keeper, would certainly delay the unification of the white tower. <br /><br />Killing Siuan would mean ofcourse Egwene losing her number one trustworthy advisor and a chance for Halima to get even closer to her, especially since Halima must know that Siuan doesn't trust Halima.<br /><br />So if Anaiya was killed for the only reason that she was supportive of Egwene and believed her dreams, why not Siuan or at least Leane ?


created: 2004-12-20 07:41:17
subject: <b>does that</b>
body:
mean that Siuan and Leane are going to be bonked off next? hey hey, this is how Halima will get found out.......  she will attempt to kill Siuan with saidin but i duno, somehow she'll be stopped and found out..... by Gareth Bryne? he needs some more importance in the story<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Surprising what you can dig out of books if you read long enough, isn't it?&quot; -- Rand Al'Thor<br /><br />&quot;I of course have zero evidence for this, but since when has that stopped any of us?&quot; -- David Wren-Hardin <br /><br />Oh, transatlantic Love!<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-12-20 07:45:22
subject: <b>does that mean</b>
body:
that Siuan and Leane (the only others who believe Egwene is a dreamer, can adequetly use T'A'R and are closest advisors to Egwene) are going to get bonked off next? hey......... then somehow she'll get stopped and caught.... try to kill Leane but Siuan will be there or vice versa and she can't handle two at once.....<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Surprising what you can dig out of books if you read long enough, isn't it?&quot; -- Rand Al'Thor<br /><br />&quot;I of course have zero evidence for this, but since when has that stopped any of us?&quot; -- David Wren-Hardin <br /><br />Oh, transatlantic Love!<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-09-22 00:32:29
subject: <b>Seems to me</b>
body:
that Karien was killed so Egwene would have to go to the docks and get captured.  Also, Halima probably has some control over Egwene, she could have encouraged her to replace Bode


created: 2005-09-24 08:48:47
subject: <b>Good</b>
body:
I like it. I completly forgot about Anaiya beleiving Egwene. I guess it makes sense that Halima would keep her secret by killing the only beleiver.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">WAFFLES!<br />Bonded to Model_02<br />Alicia wishes she was as hot as me<br />Member of Anatidaephobians Anonymous<br />Not-So-Near Second Cousin to Saeric Greylord<br />Officially better at hockey than DREWRULESWOT!<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-10-26 03:19:01
subject: <b>Too much coincidence</b>
body:
I can't accept that it's pure coincidence that Aran'gar has chosen to murder Cabriana's two closest friends (Anaiya because of the dreams and Kairen because of the cuendillar).  But I can't think of a better reason, either . . .


created: 2007-03-21 08:51:52
subject: <b>The murder of Kairen</b>
body:
If the dark forces want to supress the creation of Cuendillar, I doubt it is/was because of the Tar Valon harbor chain. The seals on the Dark One's prison are made of Cuendillar - if new ones are to be created, there will need to be Aes Sedai who can create cuendillar.


created: 2003-09-11 09:30:46
subject: <b>Really,</b>
body:
You people disgust me.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">PsyKyle<br /><i>Good heavens, that name sounds more cliche everytime I post...</i><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-09-11 10:01:07
subject: <b>When does she push for Perrin to seek glory?</b>
body:
She always wanted to be in the stories herself, but she never tried to push Perrin to seek glory.  In fact, in tSR, he seemed to think she'd leave him if he could find an adventure for her. She pushes and manipulates Perrin in a lot of ways, but not to seek glory - to fill a leadership role, yes, because he's good at it, and it's sort of necessary for his destiny; she tries to make him conform to her ideals of a good husband, but that does not include glory-seeking.  Most of her manipulations are for his protection and her view of his benefit.  In Winter's Heart, she is intent on escaping before Perrin can try to rescue her.  Fighting through a horde of Shaido to rescue damsels in distress in a good way to gain glory, but Faile seems more concerned about the danger to Perrin if he has to fight the Shaido.  Finally, in tPoD, she is impressed by his modesty.  She would resent his modesty and his interference in her clandestine activities much more if she wanted a husband who would win glory and fame.  <br />If you're going to make such an iconoclastic proposal, submit some evidence, at least.  I've had much better and more original theories, with far more evidence rejected. This should never have made it out of the Pending category.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


created: 2003-09-11 10:15:47
subject: <b>Nah</b>
body:
I know some people think that Faile is <i> at least </i> as evil as the DO and that probably the whole family Bashere are Darkfriends.<br /><br />I didn't believe in the past that Faile serves the Shadow and your point surely don't convince me either.<br /><br />Faile helps Perrin several times, especially against the Trollocs (in other words the Shadow) in the Two Rivers.<br /><br />Besides, we have several PoVs and I didn't find an indication for Faile being a DF.<br /><br />And to think that the Shadow sent someone like Faile (not really good looking and very stubborn) to get Perrin's trust and marry him finally is quite absurd.<br />How could the Shadow know that Perrin would fall in love with a woman like Faile? <br />Or what do you think were/are Faile's orders? <br /><br />No, that Faile wants her husband to get some glory can be explained with her love to Perrin and her being a Saldaean noble. <br /><br />BTW, it had been nice if you had at least offered some quotes to prove your statement that &quot;whenever Perrin goes back to wherever Rand is, Faile is always complaining that he is content to stay in the Dragon Reborn's shadow, that he should earn his own glory&quot;. <br /><br />


created: 2003-09-11 10:53:39
subject: <b>No</b>
body:
Just, No.<br /><br />I hate her and all.<br /><br />But no.<br /><br />(Heck, I've come up with much better evidance for this for Faile being a darkfriend.  But it doesn't change the fact that she isn't.)<br /><br />And just because, no.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Well Mom, that's because I hate your cretinous friends, and if I did somehow get drunk and knocked up, I'd be skewering your unborn grandchild with a knitting needle right now.<br /><br />-Krakow 2.0<br /><br />http://www.nerdparadise.com</font><p></p>


created: 2003-09-11 12:37:43
subject: <b>Good talking</b>
body:
couldn&#180;t agree more, cannoli <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />btw. i think faile is the coolest girl in WOT<br />(except The orsaken, but they doesn&#180;t count, do they)


created: 2003-09-11 12:48:37
subject: <b>I'd considered that before</b>
body:
At one point I had thought she might be a Darkfriend (considering how Perrin is Falling because of his love for her, potentially handicapping Rand in his fight against the Shadow). But I have since been convinced she isn't.<br /><br />And, BTW, I like Faile. She is probably the most likeable woman in the entire series. <br /><br />I really don't understand how so many people can't stand her.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">--imlad</font><p></p>


created: 2003-09-11 12:51:33
subject: <b>Faile</b>
body:
Although there isn't any hard evidence to the fact that she is a darkfriend, there are two things that make me think that there is more to Faile than she lets on.<br /> <br />It always seemed strange to me how quickly she took to Perrin, and how their relationship started.  I did get odd feelings from her in TDR and in the beginning of TSR.  Also, Min saw a dark vision around Davram Bashere; she told Rand that if he died, or turned against him, that he would need a year to recover from it.<br /><br />I don't think that the Bashere's are darkfriends, but maybe they know something that we don't.  Have they visited the Finn?  Does the Broken Crown have anything to do with it?<br />Does Mazrim Taim, another Saldaean who escaped from Bashere and the Aes Sedai, have some other connection to the Basheres?  Am I asking too many questions?


created: 2003-09-11 14:07:35
subject: <b>Nah. Faile is a goodguy</b>
body:
&quot;It always seemed strange to me how quickly she took to Perrin, and how their relationship started. I did get odd feelings from her in TDR and in the beginning of TSR.&quot;<br /><br />You forget something. Perrin is taveren.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;That all men are equal is a proposition which, at ordinary times, no sane individual has ever given his assent.&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2003-09-11 14:37:15
subject: <b>Theory Category</b>
body:
I got the feeling while reading this theory that the category should have been &quot;Humorous Theories&quot; and not &quot;Perrin and Faile&quot;.  Still, call the lynch mob and hope they are from Texas because there are about 357 characters we need to get rid of in this series right now.


created: 2003-09-11 17:22:40
subject: <b>been a long time</b>
body:
since I've taken part in a good ole texas lynching...  I think the last one I was the lynchee though....<br /><br />Don't remember much about it....<br /><br />And the theory did seem more humourous than anything, and I've seen nothing to support any idea that Faile might be a DF and her actions point otherwise.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Fyatuk Loth<br />Pope Consort to Grand Mistress Krista Sedai<br />Minister to the Way of What<br />Warder to Egwene Dreamwalker (donate WSe please)<br /><br />Currently stalking Belals Girl.<br /><br />WTF?</font><p></p>


created: 2003-09-11 20:20:25
subject: <b>Theories must be getting thin for this one to get through</b>
body:
I've got one of my own: Bashere turns up at the end of TFOH with two glasses and a jug of wine, just as Asmodean is murdered near the wine pantry.<br /><br />PS: Faile please sleep with Rolan and then Perrin can smell him on her everytime he's near her. Let wearing white be a divorce custom along with funeral  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />


created: 2003-09-11 20:48:07
subject: <b>Everybody does NOT hate Faile</b>
body:
There are a few things mysterious about Faile, but she is not a DF.  Perrin, in COT POV, thought something along the lines that Elyas had let slip something re the Broken Crown [which the Reader doesn`t know, of course}] and he is going to confront Faile about it.  Perrin will start standing up to her, which is what she wants, and this insane jealousy will disappear, with his firmess toward her.<br /><br />Cannoli pretty much covered my thoughts about Faile not being a DF.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2003-09-11 23:39:53
subject: <b>Whatever !!</b>
body:
Look thats a pretty stupid theory if i ever heard one.<br />If Faile is a darkfriend then Im president.


created: 2003-09-12 05:36:51
subject: <b>Wrong</b>
body:
This theory is not only wrong, it honestly borders on offensive with its tone.  Some of the best moments in the entire series are from Perrin's struggle to save Two Rivers and how Faile's love helped him through it.  If Faile was a dark friend, it would destroy Perrin.  It would be sad beyond words.  But she isn't.  IMPO, Faile deserves more respect.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I love Trillessa</font><p></p>


created: 2003-09-12 08:12:07
subject: <b>The Truth About Faile - HA HA HA I THINK NOT!!!</b>
body:
If Faile is a darkfriend then every Saldaean woman is a darkfriend (or borderland female for that matter - see the Tenobia wanting to go off to war incident as evidence). Faile's mother is another example; she wanted her daughter to have a husband who was not weak and soft, etc. Wanting Perrin to have his own glory is not a sign of a darkfriend, it just reflects a typical barderland female characteristic. If it wasn't the Barderlands would have fallen long ago and the blight would be as far south as Andor and Carhien!<br /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/w00t.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/w00t.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/w00t.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/w00t.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/w00t.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/w00t.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/w00t.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/w00t.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/w00t.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/w00t.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/w00t.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/w00t.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/w00t.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/w00t.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/w00t.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/w00t.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Your Soul is Mine!!!  MWHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-09-12 17:58:16
subject: <b>Not enough evidence</b>
body:
Sorry there is just not enough evidence.  I agree the girl needs some alone time with a Drakhar, but she not cool enough to be a darkfriend.  By the way, I think people should come up with more than one piece of evidence before they submit something as absurd as this.  Sorry to sound harsh, but reality sucks.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">To be honest with you I don't believe on . . . <br />REINCARNATION or REBIRTH, it just doesn't feel right.<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lan.gif" border="0" /> Bonded to Locin Sedai <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/avi.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-09-12 19:12:16
subject: <b>Well although i hate Faile....</b>
body:
And i have since TSR when she plays stupid games with Perrin when he is just trying to save his people and her. I dont really agree with this. The thing is, we see from her PoV and i dont ever recall &quot;Great Lord of the Dark&quot; If she doesnt say it she would at least think it if she were a Darkfriend.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Anick alSev<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /><br /><i>&quot;Till shade is gone, till water is gone,<br />into the Shadow with teeth bared,<br />screaming defiance with the last breath,<br />to spit in Sightblinder's eye on the last Day!&quot;</i><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-green.gif" border="0" /> Jedi Guardian <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-green.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-09-13 05:04:15
subject: <b>your theory is bunk</b>
body:
I think that you should post more facts before you spout out at the mouth.  Just because Faile's actions are similar to an (relatively) unimportant darkfriends's doesn't make her evil.  <br />This is coming from someone who isn't even Faile's biggest fan. (Personally I find her annoying, but not part of the shadow).  PEACE.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">The Mofo J.A.R.<br />Head of Public Relations, Al Bum's Records<br />Lead Guitarist, Inspected by 40<br />Singer, Songwriter, multi-instrumentalist<br />Viking <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /><br />WoT addict<br />http://www.inspectedby40.com<br />First post on TP blackboard 4 times.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-09-13 05:30:07
subject: <b>your theory is bunk</b>
body:
I think that you should post more facts before you spout out at the mouth.  Just because Faile's actions are similar to an (relatively) unimportant darkfriend's doesn't make her evil.  <br />This is coming from someone who isn't even Faile's biggest fan. (Personally I find her annoying, but not part of the shadow).  PEACE.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">The Mofo J.A.R.<br />Head of Public Relations, Al Bum's Records<br />Lead Guitarist, Inspected by 40<br />Singer, Songwriter, multi-instrumentalist<br />Viking <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /><br />WoT addict<br />http://www.inspectedby40.com<br />First post on TP blackboard 4 times.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-09-13 17:56:11
subject: <b>No really, she is the Dark One.</b>
body:
Really.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">No longer a user of the forbidden &quot;P&quot; word.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-09-14 23:55:12
subject: <b>u shouldn't let your upbringing cloud your judgment</b>
body:
Guy, <br /><br />Faile comes from a land where the men bluster and brag, true most of their threats are carried out. She's in a strange environment with Perrin, he's different from what she thought a man should be, he is quiet and reserved. From her viewpoint she believes that those qualities tell others that they can walk all over you, she want to protect him by &quot;Toughening&quot; him up. Now the real reason she pushes him, is that she wants to be in a familliar environment, with Perrin acting like her accepted view of what men should be like


created: 2003-09-15 19:15:33
subject: <b>Okay, I TRULY <i>&lt;b&gt;do not</i>&lt;/b&gt; like Faile...but</b>
body:
She's not a Darkfriend. There's just no way, despite how much I'd be happy over it. She's just her mother's daughter, and Perrin doesn't have the experience yet to handle her as well as Davram does Deira.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br /><i>I will try. Before surrendering to dreams or death, I will try.<font color="black"></font></i></font><p></p>


created: 2003-09-15 19:17:31
subject: <b>Bah</b>
body:
Bold doesn't work in the title field, I see. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br /><i>I will try. Before surrendering to dreams or death, I will try.<font color="black"></font></i></font><p></p>


created: 2003-09-16 10:50:43
subject: <b>Crazy ol Lew Therin</b>
body:
As I posted above, Perrin is on the right course now. He is going to sit her down hard!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2003-09-18 09:28:45
subject: <b>Ummm.....no!</b>
body:
First off not everyone dislikes Faile. He personility is just a great part of how vast an realistic RJ's writing is. - As far as the &quot;facts&quot; go....wanting their husband not to be in the shadow of another does not make them a darkfriend. Saldaean women are surley strange...for one thing they want their husbands to shout at them!- but they also want a stong man, one who takes charge (when they want them too<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />)...we have seen from Faile's point of view that she thought Perrin was lacking is this area...all she wants its for her husband to be his own man.- So i'm afraid if thats all the evidence you have, no offense, but thats a joke!- better to say Faile killed Asmodean...its easier to believe.


created: 2003-10-25 11:42:59
subject: <b>Darkfriend,not likely.</b>
body:
I don't agree with the theory that Faile is a Darkfriend.But there really is no evidence either way,so anything is possible.<br /><br />The Bashere family has something hidden in the closet,but what.<br />I've also noticed the relationship between Asmodeans death and Basheres arrival.And he has wine!And RJ say's that the killer is easy to spot!<br /><br />As for Faile I think her part in the plot is to force Perrin towards violence(Destroyer).She will betray him with Aram, and drive Perrin into a rage.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> It's time to toss the dice.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-12-27 05:12:08
subject: <b>Faile is no dark friend</b>
body:
Faile comes from a noble house for one, and her father is very loyal too Rand, and like the others on this message board  who say she isnt I agree with them, Faile loves Perrin, after all if you recall in the Dragon Reborn, Perrin risked his life too save his falcon, and faile is worryed something will happen when Perrian stages a rescue, and that is why she is trying too escape. So no I dont buy her being a dark friend. untill I can see more proof I am going too defend her<br /><br />Robb<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-20 16:26:45
subject: <b>Unlikely</b>
body:
What do you mean everybody hates Faile. She is my Fifth favorite character in the series. And i doubt she would be a dark friend if she helped bring the help in the Two Rivers. I think Robert Jordan put the glory thing in their to keep us guessing.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br />Red Sox Fan &amp; Yankee Hater<br />kim: it's too cold there to smell<br /><b>Warder to the wonderful, amusing and ever so smart Elayne_Sedai</b><br />Friends don't let friends read Goodkind<br />My mind isn't always in the gutter, it just has VIP access</font><p><a href="http://tinyurl.com/45t6t" target="_blank">Simply Splendid </a></p><p></p>


created: 2004-03-13 17:35:29
subject: <b>I may not like her but dark friend not</b>
body:
Faile is no darkfriend, her loyalty is too Perrin RJ has made that quite clear, However I do believe her Father serves the shadow<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-21 17:09:50
subject: <b>no way</b>
body:
i think your proof is a bit on the dody side! ok, i admit i'm a bit biased, because i LOVE faile, but i still think your argument is a simple generalisation. all your saying is that any woman in wot, who urges her male counterpart to be more ambitious is a df - very weak evidence in my opinion.


created: 2004-06-03 21:35:23
subject: <b>Faile is not a Darkfriend</b>
body:
<br /><br />Faile isn't a darkfriend because she loves Perrin.<br />Robert Jordan has made a point that only characters of the light ever find love.  Why turn around and change everything to make a darkfriend have love.  Also, if she were a darkfriend she has had so many times to kill Perrin that since she hasn't by now she probably won't.  Remember, that Melihndra or whatever, was Mat's &quot;lover&quot; therefore she really only slept with him and doesn't care too much if he lives or dies.  We all know that Selene was Lanfear and is just obsessive compulsive over Lews Therin.  She is just a control freak.  So, unless you can find way more conclusive evidence, Faile is not a Darkfriend.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />&quot;Death is lighter than a feather, Duty heavier than a mountain.&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-07-29 22:57:43
subject: <b>YEAH BABY!!!!!!!</b>
body:
Oh yeah!!!! finaly, someone who agrees with me!! you go!!! and don't worry about what others say, you are correct!!!! they will see the light sonner or later...ignorant fools!!! she's totaly evil and i hope she cheats on Perrin, but then i hope he dunps her and goes with someone...ANYONE....new!!!!!!<br /><br /><br />I'm..........<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/crazy.gif" border="0" />!!!!~YEP, THAT'S ME!!!!!!!!!!1


created: 2004-08-08 13:01:26
subject: <b>Insane Theories, part II</b>
body:
Nonesense, here are the facts :<br /><br />Faile is Saldaean, who else is ?<br /><br />Faile is arrogant and controlling. Who else is ?<br /><br />Faile has never been in the same room at the same time with...<br /><br />Mazrim Taim !<br /><br />That's right, Faile is Taimandred !!!!<br />And all this using rock-solid evidence.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>War must be, while we defend our lives against a destroyer who would devour all; but I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend</i><br />~Faramir</font><p></p>


created: 2005-01-18 01:30:29
subject: <b>No.</b>
body:
Faile is as nasty a piece of work as you'll find in any of RJ's  writing. But she is not a Darkfriend. Maybe she is Mesaana? If Diomedes can have a crackpot theory on Berelain really being Mesaana, surely we should have one about Faile since she is more EVIL?!!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">i have severed all my former allegiances to The Forsaken Who Shall Not Be Named Any More Because She Was Dumb Enough To Get Captured (TFWSNBNAMBSWDETGC).<br /><br />sigh. now i must find a new forsaken to root for.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-09-16 20:27:15
subject: <b>Loony</b>
body:
Sure Faile isn't very likeable IMO (Though I can understand why some people are Faile fans, I'm simply not one of them)but there's no way she's a DF, we've seen some PoVs for her, and they show she is not working for the Shadow.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Number of people I've gotten into Wheel of Time: 6  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smirk.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smirk.gif" border="0" /> Velahrn of the Order of Cadsuane Haters  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smirk.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wheel of Time, Lord of the Rings and Star Wars fans unite! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-blue.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gandalf.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gimli.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rand.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2006-05-18 06:18:00
subject: <b>Huh????????</b>
body:
Why do so many people hate Faile - what is your problem with her? So she gets a bit jealous sometimes, big deal its only because she loves Perrin. Shes such a cool character as well, she is intellegent and she can kick ass. And if shes not as pretty as Berlain who cares, Berlain is just a manipuative cow who should try wearing clothes that actually cover her!!!! (Sorry that was rather bitchy <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/blush.gif" border="0" /> )<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />Light burn all you Faile haters - she is the best!!!!!!!


created: 2006-06-21 10:18:19
subject: <b>Taile?</b>
body:
Thats right Fanatic-Templar, Faile is probably Taim... Maybe even Demandred as well? It all makes so much sense now. Tailendred!!! psssst.... why doesn't someone move this theory to the humurous section?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Egwene must die.<br />Rand Al'Thor will face her wrath...<br />And laugh in her face!</font><p></p>


created: 2007-05-17 23:58:39
subject: <b>Realistic thinking</b>
body:
Flaile was raised in a high house, she thinks that way. If she perhaps pushes Perrin not to stand in Rand's shadow, then because she's seeing that there will be a time AFTER the dragon reborn where Perrin will be on his own. (Assuming he survives Tarmon Gaidon.) <br />It reminds me of the &quot;REALPOLITIK thinking&quot; you see in the Tear Nobles, Morgase and others.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Why did I follow him? I don't know.<br />Why do things happen as they do in dreams?<br />All I know is: when he beckoned I had to follow.<br />From this moment on we journeyed east.<br />Always to the east.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-09-12 09:12:56
subject: <b>first comment!</b>
body:
finally a worthwhile theory!<br /><br />dunno if they're important though, RJ said Shara wasnt gonna be in the series. (i think)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Seeking Aes Sedai for Bondage... uhh bonding. <br /><br />We rode on the winds of the rising storm,<br />We ran to the sounds of the thunder,<br />We danced among the lightning bolts,<br />and tore the world asunder.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-09-12 09:12:56
subject: <b>Will these Giants have a role to play?</b>
body:
What you say about them being constructs could very well be true. We do know from Graendal's conversation with Sammael, that Shara has had the same government for close to three thousand years. So, they have been sealed away from the rest of the world since the Breaking, lending credence to your theory.<br /><br /> Jordan hasn't given us much on Shara, but, eventually it might come into play. We know there is civil unrest there now, either because of Rand or Graendal kidnapping those two.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2003-09-12 09:57:51
subject: <b>maybe</b>
body:
Could be you are right.  I don't know if they will play any role.  It could be just a thing Jordan put in to full out the richness of his world.  I don't like callig them lightspawn however.  To me that sound too much like you are implying they were made to combat the shadowspawn.  I don't think you are tring to do that.  I agree with Light in the Night, let's call them constructs.<br /><br />Good theory, much better than the one on Faile.  For that alone I voted thumbs up.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">May you be successful  in all your projects.<br /><br />I am a pastafarion.  The Flying Spaghetti Monster created the universe, and no one in Kansas can prove me wrong.<br /><br />http://www.vengaza.org</font><p></p>


created: 2003-09-12 10:16:44
subject: <b>Might explain their lack of contribution so far</b>
body:
In Tolkien, the Elves are the equivalent of 'Lightspawn' and they don't help out much in the War of the Ring.<br /><br />That said, I don't think there are any Lightspawn, aside from humans and Ogier, who have the responsibility of freeing their world from the Shadow.  If the Creator made Lightspawn, it would be for the same purpose that the DO made Shadowspawn - to enforce his will and serve his agenda.  It seems the Creator's agenda is allowing people to live out their own destinies in the world he made for them, and if they don't want to live under the Shadow, they have to use their free will to resist.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


created: 2003-09-12 12:47:19
subject: <b>Aes Sedai construct or yet another race of beings?</b>
body:
Cool idea.  Nice imagination.  I love new ideas!<br /><br />But, it is a bit of a leap to attribute creation by Aes Sedai just because these giants sound different from anything else that we have seen.  Ogier were not created by Aes Sedai.  Neither were s'redit, raken, grolm...etc.  And these beings are not commited to the Dark.<br /><br />Without more evidence, I will not conclude that these giants are constructs.  However, it is very clear from your evidence that they exist in Shara!<br />


created: 2003-09-12 13:20:53
subject: <b>This Theory agrees with...</b>
body:
my conclusions based on your quotes.  However, as to Constructs, I don`t know, but your idea of them being miners would tie in to Tolkien. Perhaps they are just another sentient being, like Ogier.<br /><br />Thanks for theory.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2003-09-12 13:26:57
subject: <b>my take</b>
body:
There really isn't much to speculate with, but I have a hard time believing that any creature truly exists with their faces in their bellies.  I am more inclined to believe that it is a form of trickery (for good or evil) involving either the Ayaad (with illusion weaves) or by having two people balance on top of each other with an elaborate costume.  (One person with a very large 'hat' might do as well.)<br /><br />Such trickery would be simple to perform and may be done for any number of purposes.  (Entertaining the masses or keeping people out of a certain territory.)  Another important point is that Noal would not have to go to the territory where these creatures live (if such a territory exists).  He could have seen such a creature in a parade for instance.  Maybe it is a standard trick employed by menageries.  I could imagine Luca creating such a beast and telling people to step on up to see the feirce 'Belly face giants'.<br /><br />hmm... If I remember correctly there is another reference to Giants with their faces in their bellies.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">RabidWombat<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> Let the Lord of Rambling Thoughts rule <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> Proud owner of a 2 star rating! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /> Someone stole all my cookies <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-09-12 13:37:05
subject: <b>Faces in their bellies</b>
body:
I know this may be stretching it, but the giants may have tattoos of faces on their bellies or some such. Think about how the insect-like armor of the Seanchan made people afraid of the 'monsters' when they invaded.


created: 2003-09-12 13:57:15
subject: <b>Interesting but no</b>
body:
Had to vote no on this one, the leap to make them constructs seems to much.  Still was interesting though, will have to try and find the theorys that prove Noal is farstrider sounds interesting.  Again good idea, definitly think they are real.


created: 2003-09-12 14:05:29
subject: <b>Reply</b>
body:
Thanks for the comments!<br /><br />I don't know if the giants will be important. But they are mentioned two times. <br />The Ring of Tamyrlin or the Nine Rods of Dominion are only mentioned once in the 10 books. Nevertheless many people believe that they could be important and want to know what they are.<br /><br />In any case this theory gives an explaination what RJ could have thought when he wrote about these giants.<br /><br />I chose the word &quot;Lightspawn&quot; because I thought it's a handy term for living constructs like Nym and in my view the Shara Giants.<br /><br /><br />To Cannoli,<br /><b> That said, I don't think there are any Lightspawn, aside from humans and Ogier, who have the responsibility of freeing their world from the Shadow. If the Creator made Lightspawn, it would be for the same purpose that the DO made Shadowspawn - to enforce his will and serve his agenda. It seems the Creator's agenda is allowing people to live out their own destinies in the world he made for them, and if they don't want to live under the Shadow, they have to use their free will to resist. </b> <br /><br />The Lightspawn (e.g. Nym) was created in the AoL by the Aes Sedai (not the Creator), while the Darkfriends (especially Aginor) later created the Shadowspawn (not the DO).<br /><br /><br />To jofraz,<br /><br /><b> my conclusions based on your quotes. However, as to Constructs, I don`t know, but your idea of them being miners would tie in to Tolkien. Perhaps they are just another sentient being, like Ogier. </b><br /><br />Can you explain why it ties in with Tolkien? <br /><br /><br />To RabidWombat,<br /><br /><b> There really isn't much to speculate with, but I have a hard time believing that any creature truly exists with their faces in their bellies. I am more inclined to believe that it is a form of trickery (for good or evil) involving either the Ayaad (with illusion weaves) or by having two people balance on top of each other with an elaborate costume. (One person with a very large 'hat' might do as well.)<br /><br />Such trickery would be simple to perform and may be done for any number of purposes. (Entertaining the masses or keeping people out of a certain territory.) Another important point is that Noal would not have to go to the territory where these creatures live (if such a territory exists). He could have seen such a creature in a parade for instance. Maybe it is a standard trick employed by menageries. I could imagine Luca creating such a beast and telling people to step on up to see the feirce 'Belly face giants'. </b><br /><br />Interesting idea but Noal says that the giants live under the mountains and that he was there. Why should he lie?<br /><br /><b> hmm... If I remember correctly there is another reference to Giants with their faces in their bellies. </b> <br /><br />I found only these two.<br /><br /><br />To tydogg,<br /><br /><b> I know this may be stretching it, but the giants may have tattoos of faces on their bellies or some such. Think about how the insect-like armor of the Seanchan made people afraid of the 'monsters' when they invaded. </b><br /><br />Yeah, I also thought first that could be tattoos and searched for any myth with tattooed giants. But I found nothing.<br /><br />Anyway, since tattoos are known in Randland and Noal saw these giants in Shara, I don't think that he would say that they have their faces on their bellies if it were in fact tattoos.


created: 2003-09-12 14:11:16
subject: <b>At last, a THEORY!</b>
body:
Wow! This is a theory that takes an idea from the books...finds meaning in  the idea...shows proof for the idea...AND tells a purpose for the idea!<br /><br />Now, all that is left is tell us how, if RJ goes to Shara, these will fit in to the story.<br /><br />Then again, don't! Using giants for mining seems like it could actually have happened. What do the giants do now though?<br /><br />All in all, a very good idea! Imaginative! Who cares if it is screwy, I LIKE IT!


created: 2003-09-12 14:43:10
subject: <b>Used for mining?</b>
body:
Oppression! Lightfriends or not, the giants are about to cast aside their chains, rise up, and eat everyone.<br /><br />Could <i>that</i> be how RJ plans to tie up all the loose plot threads? Everyone gets eaten?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i><font face="book antiqua"><font color="FF0000">W</font><font color="FF3300">a</font><font color="FF6600">r</font><font color="FF9900">d</font><font color="FFCC00">e</font><font color="FFCC33">r</font> <font color="FFCC33">t</font><font color="FFCC00">o</font> <font color="FF9900">s</font><font color="FF6600">t</font><font color="FF3300">a</font><font color="FF0000">r</font><font color="FF0000">r</font><font color="FF3300">y</font><font color="FF6600">_</font><font color="FF9900">n</font><font color="FFCC00">i</font><font color="FFCC33">t</font><font color="FFCC33">e</font></font></i><br /><br /><font color="white">One day.</font><br /><br />May I suggest:<br />http://onceuponagourd.etsy.com/<br /><br /><i>one two three four five six nine and ten<br />money can't buy you back the love that you had then</i></font><p></p>


created: 2003-09-12 14:48:13
subject: <b>I too seem to remember...</b>
body:
... seeing another reference to these giants somewhere else in the books, but I don't recall where. Perhaps during my next reread next year I'll spot it and tell you all (of course, I'll be pretty busy then, joining the US Navy in March).<br /><br />I had looked into real world myths of creatures like this at one point a year or two ago, and found something (though I don't remember where). If IRC, they are a myth from the &quot;Near Far East&quot; like India. It surely doesn't seem farfetched for their mythology to include such bizarre creatures when you consider some of the other beings in Hindu/Indian mythology/religion.<br /><br />As to this theory, I like it. It does seem to me that these creatures could indeed be constructs for the purpose of (not so much mining) as quarrying (sp??). As to how it might relate to Tolkien, consider this: Ogier are to elves as Belly-faced-giants are to dwarves. One is a woodland people, the other mountain-and-rock loving people. I know it isn't a complete analogy, but I can see what Jofraz was talking about. And don't forget that the dwarves are not really a &quot;natural&quot; part of Middle-Earth. They were created by one of the Valar, without the consent of the Creator (Iluvatar or Eru), unlike the elves and humans. Of course, I've always wondered where the halflings come from. As well as the ents/ent-wives and trolls (which I personally think are Morgoth-corrupted Ents).<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">--imlad</font><p></p>


created: 2003-09-12 15:26:19
subject: <b>Belly-face Giants</b>
body:
It is too farfetched to believe that there are giants with faces in their bellies. Maybe they actually exist in Shara.<br /><br />But I believe that RJ is merely embellishing Jain Noal Charin Farstrider's resemblance to Marco Polo. Marco Polo travelled to China and returned to Venice with reports of such odd creatures as giants with faces in their bellies, men with only one foot large enough to use as shade against the sun when they lie down. According to Marco Polo, these giants had no head, merely faces in the belly or chest between the shoulders. &quot;Under the mountains&quot;...did Noal go under the mountains or was that merely a convenience of Sharan legends? Like &quot;I've heard of a monster from a cousin's brother's nephew's friend that terrorizes the villages far over there.&quot; <br /><br />What about cannibals? The lack of cannibalism in WoT is odd considering that in our world, we have tons of stories of cannibals in the jungle. That would be much more believable coming from Shara than Belly-faced Giants. It would still be more believable if cannibalism appeared in the Breaking of the World when food ran out and people had to turn on to each other for survival.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Gaeran Amaconde<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />Grand Historian at the Court of the Sun<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />One of Those Chosen to Bring the Light<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" />Master of Graendal's Revels<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" />&quot;If sometimes our dreams come true, what of our nightmares?&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-09-12 16:23:00
subject: <b>Very well done.</b>
body:
I agree with this theory.  I never considered much about the Giants, and of course since I don't have the BWB I didn't have all the evidence available, but seeing it put together it makes a lot of sense.  Especially when you take into account what we have done in our world.<br /><br />Like the Nym we have created ways to help plants grow faster and larger using irrigation and fertilizers and such.<br /><br />We've also created machines to help us mine the important metals and fossil fuels we need.  Why wouldn't there be an AoL equivalent to these?<br /><br />I seem to remember some myths about giants with faces in bellies but I can't remember what they are or from where, maybe I'll look for it and see what I find...<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Fyatuk Loth<br />Pope Consort to Grand Mistress Krista Sedai<br />Minister to the Way of What<br />Warder to Egwene Dreamwalker (donate WSe please)<br /><br />Currently stalking Belals Girl.<br /><br />WTF?</font><p></p>


created: 2003-09-12 16:24:27
subject: <b>Giants</b>
body:
&quot;Interesting idea but Noal says that the giants live under the mountains and that he was there. Why should he lie?<br /><br />hmm... If I remember correctly there is another reference to Giants with their faces in their bellies. <br /><br />I found only these two.<br />&quot;<br /><br />The word &quot;Giant&quot; occurs 3 times in the first nine books.<br />&quot;GiantSlayer&quot; once. (hmm)<br />&quot;giant&quot; occurs 31 times.<br />&quot;gaints&quot; 8 times.<br />&quot;giantsbroom&quot; 2 times.<br /><br />Just a FYI.  I haven't referanced them yet.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Well Mom, that's because I hate your cretinous friends, and if I did somehow get drunk and knocked up, I'd be skewering your unborn grandchild with a knitting needle right now.<br /><br />-Krakow 2.0<br /><br />http://www.nerdparadise.com</font><p></p>


created: 2003-09-12 17:23:31
subject: <b>Some interesting web searching finds out...</b>
body:
Most &quot;giants&quot; live in caves.  Many are either miners or collect gems and such.  There are a couple types that have odd appearance (I found 2 with low hanging faces and 1 whose &quot;eyes were at the shoulder&quot; with the rest of the face below).  However most of the ones I found refer to European mythos.<br /><br />Shibouya is probably related to Shibuya (a district in Tokyo) and Shara is India, but could not find any good details on giant myths from those regions, at least nothing but the normal giant people are afraid of (and the one footed giant who lies on his back in the sun to shade himself with his humongous foot).<br /><br />That's about all I have time to look for today.  some of you might find this interesting...  http://www.herper.com/ebooks/library/biofort/Curious.pdf.<br /><br />It has some fairly interesting sections in it (I only browsed through since its 200+ pages)...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Fyatuk Loth<br />Pope Consort to Grand Mistress Krista Sedai<br />Minister to the Way of What<br />Warder to Egwene Dreamwalker (donate WSe please)<br /><br />Currently stalking Belals Girl.<br /><br />WTF?</font><p></p>


created: 2003-09-12 18:32:10
subject: <b>The Oddyssy(sp?)</b>
body:
The Oddyssy has giants with faces in there bellies, that also eat humans.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/seanchan.gif" border="0" /> Iluminaten <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/seanchan.gif" border="0" /><br />Lord of the Iluminati</font><p></p>


created: 2003-09-12 18:55:24
subject: <b>Good, except...</b>
body:
I see no evidence whatsoever to support that the giants were used by the Aes Sedai to assist with mining. You could just as easily say that giants were quite clearly made to help Aes Sedai build sho-wings and jo-cars, since these things were made in the AoL and somebody had to make them... besides that, good theory.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Who can deny a Fremen the right to walk or ride where he wills?<br />      -Dune<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-09-12 21:19:05
subject: <b>Etzel- I do like your theory</b>
body:
To paraphrase Tuon &quot;That was a foolish statement&quot; However. my convoluted thinking carried my mind to the dwarves in the mountains and then to the super orcs being constructed in an old mine.<br /><br />But to two others above, I too, have a vague memory of a 3rd reference. Could it be the Oddysey? Just a senior moment.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2003-09-12 22:07:42
subject: <b>Your still at it I see.....</b>
body:
...good theory.  I have nothing of any value to add.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2003-09-13 00:08:08
subject: <b>My First Post and Already I'm Being Verbose</b>
body:
Hey, everybody.<br /><br />As others on the board have noted, the whole giants-with-faces-on-their-chests thing is a common theme from ancient myth.  Medieval intellectuals honestly believed that Africa and the &quot;Antipodes&quot; were full of cannibals with faces on their chests called blemmyae (among other names).  They got this information from the alleged first-hand accounts of ancient and contemporary travelogue writers--the very writers upon whom I'm assuming Jain/Noal Charin is based.  <br /><br />I think that RJ's face-in-chest giant stories are another example of his fascination with the invention of myth.  For ten books now, he's hit us on the head with the idea that people really like to make stuff up, and other people really like to believe it.  Think of all the crazy myths that people invent every time Rand invades some new territory (which, incidentally, is very similar to what's going on in Iraq now, where the locals are convinced that US troops have X-ray vision).  Lots of supposedly smart people in WoT believe these stories about Rand, and we _know_ they're not true.<br /><br />Furthermore, as I think others have mentioned, Shara seems to play the same role in WoT that the exotic Orient played in the Medieval European imagination; it's that mysterious land where everything is topsy-turvy and all your most bizarre fancies just might be true.  So I think that, like the stories of Marco Polo, anything Jain/Noal or one of Idrien's &quot;scholars&quot; says about Shara should be taken with a grain of salt.  If Jain/Noal is anything like his real-world analogs, then he's far more interested in telling a good yarn than he is in telling the truth. <br /><br />Finally, we should remember that if Noal was the Barrel Geezer from ACoS (and other theories have pretty conclusively proven that he was), then some event in his past has more or less reduced his mind to jelly, and he himself might not even be sure which of his memories are true anymore.<br /><br />Whew.  Why, oh why, did I just type all that?


created: 2003-09-13 03:48:52
subject: <b>Another reply</b>
body:
It seems very likely that RJ got the idea from a myth as some people comment. <br />Nevertheless I believe that there <i> are </i> these giants in Shara and that Noal saw them. He doesn't fake his other stories so I don't see why the giants should be only a fairy tale.  <br />I also believe it isn't a natural race. <br /><br />And again to the tattoos. <br />Another story of Noal is that the female channeler in Shara have tattood face. <br />So Noal knows tattoos and would say that also the giants have tattood bellies.<br /><br /><br />To ngallagher,<br /><br /><b> Oppression! Lightfriends or not, the giants are about to cast aside their chains, rise up, and eat everyone.<br /><br />Could that be how RJ plans to tie up all the loose plot threads? Everyone gets eaten? </b><br /><br />Great point! Made me laugh. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br />To Gaeran,<br /><br /><b> What about cannibals? The lack of cannibalism in WoT is odd considering that in our world, we have tons of stories of cannibals in the jungle. That would be much more believable coming from Shara than Belly-faced Giants. It would still be more believable if cannibalism appeared in the Breaking of the World when food ran out and people had to turn on to each other for survival. </b><br /><br />Well, Noal doesn't say that they eat men though it would give his story a special zest.<br />Do you believe then that the faces on the bellies are skulls or shrinkheads?<br /><br />In any case, these giants are not human, they are too tall.<br /><br /><br />To Fyatuk,  <br /><br /><b> Like the Nym we have created ways to help plants grow faster and larger using irrigation and fertilizers and such.<br /><br />We've also created machines to help us mine the important metals and fossil fuels we need. Why wouldn't there be an AoL equivalent to these? </b><br /><br />Yes, and I found it especially strange that besides the Nym RJ never mentioned another of these living constructs. Therefore I think it could be very well that these giants are Lightspawn.<br /><br /><b> Shibouya is probably related to Shibuya (a district in Tokyo) and Shara is India, but could not find any good details on giant myths from those regions, at least nothing but the normal giant people are afraid of (and the one footed giant who lies on his back in the sun to shade himself with his humongous foot). </b><br /><br />BTW, in the glossar of CoT under &quot;Shara&quot; we find that &quot;Shibouya&quot; is another name for Shara. So it's probably not a special place but the whole country.<br /><br /><br />To InsaneJawa,<br /><br /><b> I see no evidence whatsoever to support that the giants were used by the Aes Sedai to assist with mining. You could just as easily say that giants were quite clearly made to help Aes Sedai build sho-wings and jo-cars, since these things were made in the AoL and somebody had to make them... besides that, good theory. </b><br /><br />Well, my thinking was that these giants live under mountains and that the Aes Sedai used the Nym for planting, why not these giants for mining.<br />Of course it could be that the giants had another purpose. <br /><br /><br />To Youker,<br /><br />Welcome! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><b> Finally, we should remember that if Noal was the Barrel Geezer from ACoS (and other theories have pretty conclusively proven that he was), then some event in his past has more or less reduced his mind to jelly, and he himself might not even be sure which of his memories are true anymore. </b><br /><br />Note that Noal didin't forget everything. He remembers his past, e.g. the time in Shara quite good and even cooks in CoT a Shara meal. <br />He only can't remember really what he did in the last time and his name.<br />I think these recent memories were deleted or burried somehow, probably by Graendal if Noal was also the old man in her palace. <br />


created: 2003-09-14 12:58:32
subject: <b>I agree</b>
body:
With just about everything in this theory.<br />It sounds very reasonable and I congratulate you for digging this out!


created: 2003-09-15 19:20:15
subject: <b>I think this is a clever theory,</b>
body:
Whether it's correct or not remains to be seen, but I'll give you bonus points for creative thinking, if nothing else. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br /><i>I will try. Before surrendering to dreams or death, I will try.<font color="black"></font></i></font><p></p>


created: 2003-09-17 07:56:29
subject: <b>Etzel</b>
body:
<b>BTW, in the glossar of CoT under &quot;Shara&quot; we find that &quot;Shibouya&quot; is another name for Shara. So it's probably not a special place but the whole country.</b><br /><br />Sorry, wasn't trying to imply that Shibouya was a province or anything like that (I remembered reading somewhere they were the same place) was just trying to explain why I was specifically trying to find Asian giant lore.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Fyatuk Loth<br />Pope Consort to Grand Mistress Krista Sedai<br />Minister to the Way of What<br />Warder to Egwene Dreamwalker (donate WSe please)<br /><br />Currently stalking Belals Girl.<br /><br />WTF?</font><p></p>


created: 2003-09-17 08:13:51
subject: <b>It was my mistake</b>
body:
<b> Sorry, wasn't trying to imply that Shibouya was a province or anything like that (I remembered reading somewhere they were the same place) was just trying to explain why I was specifically trying to find Asian giant lore. </b><br /><br />I said in my theory that Shibouya seems to be a place in Shara. <br />Later I found out that it's apparently just another name for Shara.<br />I wanted to correct that.


created: 2003-09-17 12:38:53
subject: <b>Lightspawn...</b>
body:
i like the theory its well thought out but the use of lightspawn??? its almost as bad as lightfriends....good theory though...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rand.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perrin.gif" border="0" /><br />I don't fail. I succeed in finding what doesn't work. <br /><br /><font color="00ff33">Official Sponsor of the Melindhra Fan Club</font></font><p><a href="http://www.illwillpress.com" target="_blank">Feel the Squirley Wrath!!!!</a></p><p></p>


created: 2003-09-18 13:06:37
subject: <b>Not true</b>
body:
You should look better at your history lessons.<br /><br />In the middle ages the peole in Western Europe(to compare with Randland) thought that in China(Shara)there lived such creatures (they called them Blemmiae).<br /><br />They were created from stories of the few people (like Noal) who ventured into the far east (along the silk road). When they came back they invented such creatures to make their tales more impressive.<br /><br />Even some medieval manuscripts(like the book that probably isn't from the AOL) talked about such creatures because people did know very little about the east. <br /><br />So RJ was just making a referention to our real world.


created: 2003-09-19 01:57:51
subject: <b>Another way to look at it</b>
body:
People have said on here that they don't believe that there could be giants with faces on their bellies- that it is implausible.  But remeber people-this is a work of fantasy!  Its very purpose is to present implausible ideas.  In the real world, if someone told me this story, I would not believe it.  Hearing it from Noal, who has probably been there, and can probably remember it clearly, is another matter.  If he says he was there, and that he saw them, I believe it.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Yes, Cuban B...<br /><br />I crashed my van into Jesus!<br /><br />If you try to fail, and succeed, which have you done?</font><p></p>


created: 2004-04-15 00:47:00
subject: <b>um, no</b>
body:
the giants in the Oddessy do NOT have faces in their bellies (if only i could find the person responsible for such a conjecture, they would soon think better of it)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> &quot;I'm the D.O.&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /> &quot;No I am&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rand.gif" border="0" /> &quot;KILL THEM!&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /> &quot;You can't possibly win!&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" />*smirks* &quot;Ya wanna make a bet???&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perrin.gif" border="0" /> *mutters* &quot;stupid axe&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/avi.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/min.gif" border="0" /> &quot;YOU CAN DO IT!&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2003-09-12 23:48:36
subject: <b>Very good.</b>
body:
Triva or not, you make a good point.  Good job.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I love Trillessa</font><p></p>


created: 2003-09-13 00:15:48
subject: <b>Well...</b>
body:
There are really three possibilities here:<br /><br />1) You've made an astute observation about yet another male/female channeling difference.<br /><br />2) Jordan just screwed up again, and it will be emended in later editions.<br /><br />3) Moggy refrained from teaching the girls certain things about skimming, including some trick for tracking another person in the skimming plane, which Rand used unconsciously by accessing a weave from LTT's memory.<br /><br />My guess is either 1) or 3), and I'm perfectly willing to believe 1) until persuaded otherwise. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" />


created: 2003-09-13 00:26:57
subject: <b>It could be that...</b>
body:
Asmodean was working from Mat's description, and with Skimming, you must be familiar with your destination, rather than the starting point, so maybe Rand and Asmodean were both trying to reach the place Mat described: where he and Rand entered the fog. Just a devil's advocate thing, because Egwene did say &quot;aiming for the same place.&quot;<br /><br />It might be interesting to know the reasons why, as most of the differences in male/female capabilities reflect the natures of the two genders: for instance, men can't link, while women can, and can enable men to link.  Women can also tell much more about another woman's channeling: her strength, the existance of her ability, the glow when a woman is channeling.  This seems to imply or relate to the generalization that women communicate better and express themselves better, and cooperate more naturally than men do; while men communicate better with women than they do with other men (as per example, Aviendha probably knows Rand better fter a few months than Mat or Perrin does after 20 years; by the same token, Elayne or Egwene know Aviendha much better than Rand does, for all that they lived in one another's pockets for half a year). In the interests of good taste, I will not directly comment on the Freudian symbology inherent in Rand &amp; Egwene's discussion on how men Travel. To make a long post shorter, could there be some commentary about the nature of men and women implicit in the differences in Skimming?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


created: 2003-09-13 01:19:43
subject: <b>ha</b>
body:
I just believe the first one. I can easily see just little things like that being differences between male and female channelling.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rand.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Kneel and swear to the Lord Dragon, or you shall be knelt! - Mazrim Taim<br /><br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-09-13 03:14:22
subject: <b>Differences, yes. But...</b>
body:
How does Egwene know this for a fact?<br /><br />Is this just another case of Aes Sedai arrogance (read ignorance)?<br /><br />Remember that stilling/gentling/severing could definitely NOT be healed according to AS and AOLers. And according to AS someone had to teach the WO all those weaves and there couldn't be very many in the Kin.


created: 2003-09-13 04:00:12
subject: <b>Never noticed...</b>
body:
and who needs Skimming if you can travel! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />So does that mean that e.g. Rand couldn't follow Egwene with Skimming?<br /><br />In any case, it could be that men and women use different Skimming techniques. <br />Also Travelling is a bit different between men and women.


created: 2003-09-13 05:12:08
subject: <b>This male/female stuff makes me wonder.</b>
body:
In tFoH, Rand reads the residue of Rahvin's gateway to T'A'R, and duplicates it, following him for the battle.  Later it is revealed (in tPoD) by Elayne that the ability to do the first is very rare, and the second takes very great skill.  With this theory, I now have to wonder, is the Talent to learn a weave from the residue THAT rare among all channelers, or just among women?  Does it take &quot;VERY great dexterity&quot; for a man to reproduce another's gateway, or is that something else men are more naturally adept at?  Is Rand that good, and that lucky with his Talent? or is it that just about all men can do this, and Rahvin was counting on it so Rand would follow him into T'A'R, where Rahvin's experience would offset Rand's angreal-enhanced strength?  For that matter, on his first trip to T'A'R, Rand didn't have nearly the same amount of problems most of the women did controlling the little changes - does T'A'R react less to men's stray thoughts, or was Rand so focused on getting Rahvin, that either a) he didn't notice any changes or b) his thoughts didn't wander enough to change clothing or c) men don't care about their clothing in the same way women might, so their feelings and thoughts are less likely to be reflected by their garments?<br /><br />All this speculation from one incident!  How many other things are there like this that could be more little differences in the way the sexes channel, or mistakes or coincidences.


created: 2003-09-13 08:13:32
subject: <b>Nice observation</b>
body:
There are obvious differences between male and female channeling. Who knows whether RJ had his story abilities firmly fixed in the beginning. This was supposed to be a 3 book story.<br /><br />Saranov-<br /><br />A correction- Rand always enters T`a`R in the body.  The women enter in their &quot;dreams&quot;, except for Egwene`s travelling to Salidar.  Rand has no need to keep his clothes firmly fixed in his mind.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2003-09-13 10:44:13
subject: <b>Saidin and saidar are different</b>
body:
we know that everything is different between the 2 halfs of the one power.  Makinga gateway is different for them so i would assume that skimming would be different 2<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Gwydion Quatar <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br />    Champion of Mankind<br />       Knight of Passion<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-09-13 10:49:51
subject: <b>Ta'veren anyone???</b>
body:
<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Seeking Aes Sedai for Bondage... uhh bonding. <br /><br />We rode on the winds of the rising storm,<br />We ran to the sounds of the thunder,<br />We danced among the lightning bolts,<br />and tore the world asunder.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-09-13 13:09:40
subject: <b>umm..</b>
body:
Don't forget that this is Egwene's POV.  She may just be assuming this about skimming.  Has she tried it to know, or is RJ just feeding us wrong information because it is what Egwene assumes to be true.  RJ has stated before that just because a character thinks something does not mean it is correct.<br /><br />Perhaps she got the information from other Aes Sedai who had been skimming lately, or from Moggy, but... we don't know.  Nice observation, though.  It could be correct.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /> Survivor of Historical Inquizition ... barely <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Who can say if I've been changed for the better, but because I knew you I have been changed for good -- Wicked<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-09-13 14:56:01
subject: <b>About Egwene's knowledge of Skimming</b>
body:
It was stated that Salidar sisters were constantly skimming to and from Salidar to retrieve messenger pigeons that were left there. Thus, there were probably sister who Skimmed to or from Salidar at nearly the same time and place and didn't see each other, which made them start experimenting...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Who can deny a Fremen the right to walk or ride where he wills?<br />      -Dune<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-09-16 12:05:13
subject: <b>Destination</b>
body:
Skimming seems to be driven by the will.  You will it to the destination you want.  Rand's destination was not a place but to catch Asmodean.  I believe that is why Rand saw him.


created: 2003-09-16 12:44:37
subject: <b>Jonath</b>
body:
What an original idea.  I like it. Why not try it on the MB.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2003-09-16 15:41:14
subject: <b>I totally agree with Mussels</b>
body:
But will flesh it out in a sentence or two.<br /><br />The other option that hasn't been mentioned is that Rand is the strongest ta'veren going, so gets by on luck in ways that other people never possibly could. Which could well be the explanation for him seeing Asmodean while skimming. <br /><br />I like the idea that he saw him because he was pursuing him, too.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />I need a nap.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-09-16 23:56:55
subject: <b>Possibly a Lew Therin Trick</b>
body:
It could also possibly be that Lews Therin was working through Rand once again. Remember that in tFoH, Chapter 31, The Far Snows, when Aviendha weaves a gateway to try to escape Rand, he blocks it in some way that Asmodean didn't know. Could it be possible that following another person skimming could be another trick by Lew Therin Telamon?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Incantrix <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-09-19 01:43:13
subject: <b>Whether or not it was LTT...</b>
body:
doesn't really mean anything.  The gist of the theory was that different things are possible for men and for women.  If LTT channeled through Rand or lent him the knowledge subconsciously, it is still an action performed by a man, that Moghedian claims is impossible for a woman.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


created: 2003-12-01 23:07:40
subject: <b>jofraz and Saranov</b>
body:
Concerning males entering TAR. If you remember, Perrin never has any trouble controlling his clothing or the small changes. He enters in his sleep just like the dreamwalkers and people using Ter'Angreal. Granted, he's there a little more strongly than them, but isn't there in the flesh like Rand always is. So, it's not necessarily because Rand enters in the flesh that he has better control over things.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Brown and Gold, baby!<br />UW Cowboys</font><p></p>


created: 2004-04-26 17:24:15
subject: <b>Two and two together..</b>
body:
This is tied to the theory posted by TAR and Other Dimensions the other week. He/She said Skimming might actually take place in TAR, seeing as TAR is described as filling the 'spaces' in the Pattern, and Skimming is just taking a shortcut outside the Pattern. If this is true, and since its been experienced that TAR is malleable to the will of the dreamer, maybe the difference is only a manifestation of the dissimilarities in how men and women think?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Granting you and I argue<br />If you get the better of me<br />Are you right and I wrong?<br />If I get the better of you<br />Am I right and you wrong?<br />Or are we both right?<br />Or are we both wrong?<br />Since you and I cannot know<br />We all live in darkness</font><p></p>


created: 2008-05-11 13:29:13
subject: <b>Ta'veren and Differences</b>
body:
The Difference in Male/Female channeling seems the most obvious explanation, tho ofcourse the 2wish/desire&quot; driving that particular skimming is also reasonable.<br /><br />That aside the 2wish/desire&quot; explanation migth expalein how the Forsaken can meet in thier T'A'R meeting places, mainly cuz where they are seem to be in the&quot;Skimming&quot; void.


created: 2003-09-15 10:51:38
subject: <b>blech</b>
body:
If this happens I will once and for all denounce RJ as a plagiaristic fraud.  I hate this possibility, but it seems possible with RJ's scheming up till now. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="images/personalsmilies/80.gif" /><br /><br />Bad Ash<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-09-15 11:17:06
subject: <b>An old idea</b>
body:
Many people have already pointed out this idea.<br /><br />But trust me as I trust RJ: he is a much more original, proud and clever writer and wouldn't copy another author in such a boring, shameless and dumb way.


created: 2003-09-15 11:29:11
subject: <b>Some of your facts are wrong</b>
body:
You state it was the dagger that transforms Fain. This is not the case. He met and merged with Mordeth in Shadar Logoth, thus the transformation. The dagger is later said to make him &quot;whole&quot; when he retrieves it from the storage room in the White Tower.<br /><br /> It's been about 25 years since I read Lord of the Rings. Did destroying the Ring kill Sauron, or just weaken his possibility of winning? In any case, I don't believe it is possible to destroy the Dark One, only to seal him away, else the Creator likely would have done so long ago. One of the main themes of the series has been about balance. Saidin/Saidar, Creator/DO, good/evil, men/women. <br /><br /> Fain, I'm sure will play some kind of role which will help Rand win, possibly weakening the DO's power somehow, or serve as a distraction, else the other creator(Jordan), would have gotten rid of him already.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2003-09-15 11:38:14
subject: <b>No</b>
body:
I go along with Bad Ash and Etzel.  If RJ did this, he would lose the vast majority of his fans.<br /><br />But he won`t do it.<br /><br />LitN says Fain/Mordeth will be used, somehow, to inadvertantly help Rand.  To me, this is a possibility, but not with your ending.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2003-09-15 11:45:02
subject: <b>wildcard</b>
body:
I like to think of Fain as a wildcard.  Someone here described him that way once, and I like it.  From Moridin's point of view, Fain might be a wrench that could ruin any number of Moridin's elaborate intrigues.  With Fain in the mix, any of the main characters plans could go awry.<br /><br />I also don't see any kind of collaboration between Rand and Fain.  But even this kind of development would make me scratch my head at RJ and think 'plagerism??  How could he do it to us??'


created: 2003-09-15 12:49:05
subject: <b>what I think...</b>
body:
molec said :   &quot;I like to think of Fain as a wildcard. Someone here described him that way once, and I like it. From Moridin's point of view, Fain might be a wrench that could ruin any number of Moridin's elaborate intrigues. With Fain in the mix, any of the main characters plans could go awry.&quot;<br /><br />Personally I believe that Padan Fain is the ultimate pawn of the DO (albeit a reluctant pawn now). I think that the DO has no real plans/expectations to win against the Light this turning of the wheel. Rather, I think the DO expects to loose, and Fain is his(? it's ?) backup plan for the next time around. <br /><br />Fain is supposed to survive TG, and spread his corrupting evil across the land, in a sinister, covert manner. When again the Wheel turns to the point of a Champion being sent to fight the next TG, there will be more places of darkness and evil like Shadar Logoth, causing the next Champion major league problems.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">--imlad</font><p></p>


created: 2003-09-15 12:54:13
subject: <b>Not likely</b>
body:
I agree with Bad Ash and Etzel.<br /><br />RJ has said that when he started writing WoT, he only had the first and last scene. I have always thought that ment they were connected in some way (LTT and Ishamael in some sort of struggle). <br /><br />


created: 2003-09-15 17:01:32
subject: <b>Come on, there hasn;t been any LotR stuff for a while</b>
body:
The parallels pretty much stopped after the Great Hunt.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


created: 2003-09-15 17:52:15
subject: <b>Let us hope he doesn't do this</b>
body:
First let us hope he doesn't do this since it would stink terribly.  Second, I don't think there is enough evil in fain of the mordeth type to actually kill the dark one.<br /><br />In the lord of the rings, the ring was sauron himself to some weird extent, as soon as the ring was destroyed he was not only defeated but destroyed.


created: 2003-09-15 19:50:44
subject: <b>Don't Forget the Prophecy</b>
body:
I agree that Padan Fain may have a major role in TG, but you forgot the prophecy. It mentions Rand's blood on the rocks of Shayol Ghul, and the double dawns, so either your scene idea is incomplete or inconsistant. It also seems like a kind of dissapointing ending for the series. Knowing Jordan, and especially considering that he thought of the last scene first, it's going to be a big wow event that nobody will have thought of. Or at least not yet.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Incantrix <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-09-15 20:55:55
subject: <b>ugh</b>
body:
RJ isnt stupid enough to end his very original series in a very unoriginal way just because he makes a few allusions.


created: 2003-09-16 01:14:57
subject: <b>?</b>
body:
&quot;RJ would lose a lot of fans&quot;.<br /><br />Well considering this may be the last act of the last book I don't think he could care less.<br /><br />Bu Fain does 'balance; something and its got the Forsaken worried enough to send Slayer and Darkhounds after the &quot;Renagade&quot;.<br /><br />All we know is that he doesn't 'balance' Machin Shin. <br /><br />


created: 2003-09-16 13:24:15
subject: <b>I agree with so many of the above...</b>
body:
RJ wouldn't do that to us.  If that was the ending he had in mind I don't think he even would have started writing.<br /><br />Though I do group Fain in the &quot;wildcard&quot; group with Gollum from LotR and Agent Smith from Matrix (and many many others).  Their role almost always ends up unwittingly saving the day.<br /><br />Thus Fain will likely end up saving Rand's life at some point (probably from one of the Forsaken or Slayer or SH).<br /><br />It'll be interesting to see what role Fain plays in TG, but I don't think it will be easy to predict what RJ will do (or at least it hasn't been).<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Fyatuk Loth<br />Pope Consort to Grand Mistress Krista Sedai<br />Minister to the Way of What<br />Warder to Egwene Dreamwalker (donate WSe please)<br /><br />Currently stalking Belals Girl.<br /><br />WTF?</font><p></p>


created: 2003-09-16 20:48:39
subject: <b>i think you put yourself in a tough spot by</b>
body:
mapping out the exact events, but i've agreed with the idea for a while. I think Mordeth's evil will counterbalance the DO's evil and patch the hole. Mainly because Mordeth's evil is as powerful as the DO's evil. Think about it- Mordeth created Shadar Logoth- an evil equal to the most powerful one stroke move the DO could make (tainting of Saidin). I think Mordeth's evil is the prison itself- the creator placed the two evils together beyond reality to let them bind each other there. A piece was broken off one (the bore made), and the DO's evil followed out. Just i think the DO's evil is more immediately acting than Mordeth's, but both are equally potent (which is worse- AIDS or anthrax?).  <br /><br />So, in summation- if Rand want's to reimprison the DO, then he'll need Mordeth. Perhaps a bit of the DO will live on outside the prison in the form of Fain minus Mordeth in the next age.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;I'm sorry Marge. But whenever i was holding the gun i felt this incredible surge of power. Like God must feel when he holds a gun..&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2003-09-17 02:01:27
subject: <b>This sounds possible</b>
body:
I agree that is sounds like a copy of LotR, but this is a very good and very likely situation that could happen to end the series. We all know there has been a showdown between Rand and Fain since the beginning, and it seems to me like the end of the war will more likely be a showdown between them than Rand and the DO. Still, RJ will think of something original, because it would be too blatant of a copy from Tolkien.


created: 2003-09-17 11:02:49
subject: <b>No,</b>
body:
but maybe Fain could play a part in &quot;Rand's death&quot; on the slopes of dragonmount. And by doing so destroying the aching evil in Rand's side.<br /><br />But put a huge questionmark on the the statement above!?


created: 2003-09-18 11:56:31
subject: <b>That is completely absurd</b>
body:
Robert Jordan has too much respect for himself, his fans, and J.R.R. Tolkien (as evinced by multiple tributes to the father of modern fantasy) to rip The Lord of the Rings off that overtly.


created: 2003-09-19 01:04:23
subject: <b>Just a quick note in defense</b>
body:
First I'd like to thank the admins for posting this theory.  I've been frequenting this site for some time now, and this was my first theory.<br /><br />Now, to the theory itself:<br /><br />I really don't think that this specifically will happen.  I don't hold with the &quot;RJ won't do this because he will lose fans&quot; camp becuase, if that were true, the last few books would have moved the story a lot further.  Instead, he has done things that leave many of the people I have seen on this board posting how they are almost too bored with it to go on reading.<br /><br />Second, even if this did happen, it wouldn't happen in the way that I laid out.  I'm not a writer.  Even if I were, I don't think that I would be in the league of authors like RJ.  If he were going this way he would have it fleshed out much more, and it would probably take up about 150 pages!<br /><br />I would like to thank everyone who read and responded to this theory, especially LitN for his correction on my facts.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Yes, Cuban B...<br /><br />I crashed my van into Jesus!<br /><br />If you try to fail, and succeed, which have you done?</font><p></p>


created: 2003-09-19 01:08:43
subject: <b>About Sauron</b>
body:
One last thing-<br />LitN-<br /><br />When Isiador (sp?) cut the ring off of Sauron's finger, that dispersed his essence and destroyed his physical form.  I think the explanation for this was that Sauron had put a lot of his life force into the ring.<br /><br />By that same token, when the ring was destroyed Sauron was destroyed.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Yes, Cuban B...<br /><br />I crashed my van into Jesus!<br /><br />If you try to fail, and succeed, which have you done?</font><p></p>


created: 2003-09-19 02:04:27
subject: <b>Bluster and Hooey</b>
body:
Your theory is nothing more than pure supposition.<br />peace<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">The Mofo J.A.R.<br />Head of Public Relations, Al Bum's Records<br />Lead Guitarist, Inspected by 40<br />Singer, Songwriter, multi-instrumentalist<br />Viking <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /><br />WoT addict<br />http://www.inspectedby40.com<br />First post on TP blackboard 4 times.</font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-21 01:24:31
subject: <b>Another possible ending.</b>
body:
Maybe the DO will possess Rand then Fain will knife him thus killing both Rand and the DO.  Hey it could happen. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />


created: 2007-06-11 22:12:28
subject: <b>What???</b>
body:
Why do so many people think Fain can kill the DO? the only person/thing capable of killing DO is the creator and he hasn't done it!!! <br /><br />so simply, the final battle is between the Nae'blis and the Dragon, DO isn't going to die or break free, he will just be sealed away.


created: 2007-10-20 00:03:48
subject: <b>Why Your Theory is Impossible</b>
body:
Well you have a good theory but that ending is impossible. I think it's impossible because in every Prophecy about The Dragon says that the DRAGON will defeat DO and not someone else and on the last part you said that the DO will be destroyed but that is impossible because the DO is the opposite of the Creator and if the DO is destroyed then balance will be destroyed and maybe the Wheel of Time itself. But good work though


created: 2009-01-05 08:58:02
subject: <b>something is there</b>
body:
There is a connection and i think  that you sort of have somethinng but i dont know if PF is going to win the last battle for us,and if you think about it froto failed and did and wanted to keep the ring for himself,gollum was the true hero even if buy accedent. <br />  I really hope it isnt the harry potter endind or the lord of the rings.IT seems the RJ has aalways given us good stuff and i dont think he will disapoint after all of this.<br />  Maybe he will try the enemy of my enemy thing ,but I think it more likely the there will be alot of things that will determine the outcome and that we are all wasteing our time focuseing on the obvious few.


created: 2003-10-31 13:45:29
subject: <b>Hey- I'm the first!!!</b>
body:
And there hasn't been any posts on the TB for a long time! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> I'd almost given up hope....<br /><br />Oh, is there any precedence for having someone hole a white hot rod to see if they are the true Queen??? Not that I know of. I think these things still represent something to do with Rand.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Pronounced: &quot;Rand was here&quot;<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shakefist.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-10-31 14:09:57
subject: <b>Ordeal of a trial</b>
body:
While this is original, allow me to explain the ordeal. The English (and those on the Continent) in the Dark Ages were a superstitious lot and believed that God would intervene for the innocent accused holdin the red-hot iron. The Westlanders (including the Andorans) &quot;know&quot; that the Creator does not get directly involved in human affairs, so the English ordeal does not fit their mindset (except maybe the Whitecloaks). I don't think Elayne will suffer this way or that she will fall in the siege of Caemlyn. Elayne has her allies in the Borderland monarchs coming into Andor. Furthermore, should Caemlyn fall, she could escape through a Travel gateway made by herself (or if pregnancy interferes, one of the other channelers available in the Royal Palace). The taking of Caemlyn by itself would be difficult: if the rebel nobles manage to breach the city walls, they would only be taking the New City and has to lay siege to the Old City (Hai Caemlyn) which has its own walls and contains the Palace itself.<br /><br />I think the danger refers to Elayne's pregnancy itself. She has repeatedly said that should anyone find out that the babies were from the Dragon Reborn, her life would be in danger. Thus her maintenance of the fiction that Daved Hanlon is the father. The axe would be refering to the headman's axe used for execution (the crime of being the Dragon Reborn's consort would be heinous indeed in the eyes of the common people). The red-hot iron, I'm not sure about, but if the Whitecloaks are sick enough, they might just use the iron for a form of abortion to prevent the birth of the children of the hated Dragon Reborn.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Gaeran Amaconde<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />Grand Historian at the Court of the Sun<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />One of Those Chosen to Bring the Light<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" />Master of Graendal's Revels<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" />&quot;If sometimes our dreams come true, what of our nightmares?&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-10-31 21:41:55
subject: <b>i agree with the guy above...</b>
body:
...on everything BUT the red hot iron part... that's just too sick for RJ.<br /><br />i disagreed with the theory, but i really dunno about that viewing.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Seeking Aes Sedai for Bondage... uhh bonding. <br /><br />We rode on the winds of the rising storm,<br />We ran to the sounds of the thunder,<br />We danced among the lightning bolts,<br />and tore the world asunder.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-11-01 04:15:42
subject: <b>I figured...</b>
body:
that this theory would not be very popular. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Nevertheless I think it's just consequential if we look at Min's viewings in general.<br /><br />They always represent very important turning points for the person and the plot. <br />Both, red-hot iron and axe are together in one viewing. <br />Min says it means trouble. <br />Plus, we know that Min's viewings are mainly very concrete, not only metaphors.<br />While we can explain Rand's white-hot iron with balefire, we can't do that with the red-hot iron and the axe.<br /><br />We see that Moridin himself directs the buisness in Caemlyn; that shows us the importance of Andor for the Shadow. <br />In CoT Lady Shaine already meets Elayne's enemies.<br />Some time a plot of the Shadow must be successful. <br />Since the title &quot;Crossroad of Twillight&quot; indicates that there will come darkness for some characters in the next book; Elayne's plot needs such a twist.<br /><br />Therefore I believe that Elayne will fall in the hands of someone who threats her with a red-hot iron and an axe.<br />To me it sounds like a trial/ordeal. <br /><br />Of course, as I said, an ordeal would probably only suit the WC (who apparently believe in the Light as an authority).<br />But maybe also the nobels would use a red-hot iron. <br />We will see.<br /><br />In any case I'm curious how everyone who disagrees with me interprets the viewing because to imagine the red-hot iron &amp; axe has to do with Rand losing a hand is much more unrealistic in my view.


created: 2003-11-01 04:47:39
subject:
<b>Am I the only one who thinks <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perrin.gif" border="0" />?</b>

body:
It feels unlikely but Perrin is, after all, a blacksmith (red-hot iron) and he carries an axe. I don't really see how it would happen, as he's busy in Ghealdan, and that's my main problem. Maybe it has something to do with raising Manetheren, but I don't see how Perrin would make Elayne lose a hand. <br /><br />Hmmm... I think I'll let some of the bright people in here think about that for a while... (I'm not very good at creating theories)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font face="bitstream vera">Quality procrastination should always be given the time it needs.<br /><font color="white"> BLANK SPACE BL </font><i>&#169;amilla</i></font><br /><br /><br /><font color="#999999"> Add yourself to the map below</font></font><p><a href="http://www.frappr.com/wotmania" target="_blank">See where wotmaniacs live!</a></p><p></p>


created: 2003-11-01 06:25:09
subject: <b>bloody hands axes and perrin</b>
body:
I'm not sure if anyone remembers but in CoT Perrin chops off an aielman's hands with his axe to extract information about Faile from the man. So maybe Perrin's fanatic attitude will have some sort of impact on Elayne's future life...


created: 2003-11-01 07:09:34
subject: <b>Agrees on some points</b>
body:
I will agree that the two separate viewings are not related. The first one was told to Elayne in the Tower. She is telling Egwene what Min saw: &quot;One of the things she said when she saw me was a severed hand. Not mine, she says.&quot;<br /><br /> The second viewing is in Falme, after Min meets back up with Elayne and Nyn: &quot;...Min found herself reading the auras of the other two women. There was danger, but that was to be expected-and new things, too, among the images she had seen before; it was like that, sometimes. A man's ring of heavy gold floated above Nynaeve's head, and above Elayne's, a red-hot iron and an axe. They meant trouble, she was sure, but it seemed distant, somewhere in the future.&quot;<br /><br />I am one of those that believes the severed hand is the Band of the Red Hand. My reasoning is that Elayne was as instrumental as Egwene, if not moreso, in separating Mat from the Band. She was eager to get her hands on Mat's medallion to study it,  as well as teach him some manners and how to be a good leader. This effectively severs him from his army, while at the same time making the Band into mercenaries. How convenient is that, now that Elayne finds herself employing mercenaries to defend her city?<br /><br />When I look at the second viewing, it clearly states that the red-hot iron and the axe, is new. To me, this indicates that her meeting with Min in Falme and what they are about to do, has either brought something in the future more clearly into focus, OR, is creating new possibilities of other events. <br /><br /> I totally agree with you, that the red-hot iron and the axe have something to do personally with Elayne. The severed hand was a more peripheral viewing, IMO, something that she caused and will affect her, but in a less direct way than the other.<br /><br /> As for the rest of what you say, it raises some possibilities. However, Gateways render seiges useless. The Andoran nobles will ultinately fail in that. Treachery from within, is another matter.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2003-11-01 08:44:11
subject: <b>UNRELATED</b>
body:
The severed hand and the bloody hand were viewings for two different people who have very little to do with one another (aside from incidentals like a Warder bond and a couple of buns in the oven) over the course of the story.  Rand's hand is very  distinctive.  He has a heron brand on both palms and a dragon's head on the backs of both hands.  When he visits the Cairhienin rebel camp in aCoS, he uses no disguise except a pair of gloves.  If it had been Rand's hand Min viewed, she would have mentioned the markings. She would also not have known it for Rand's hand, because he did not yet have the markings when she had the viewing, so she would have had no motivation for withholding that fact.  Rand's &quot;bloody hand&quot; viewing is unlikely to be connected to Elayne's &quot;severed hand.&quot;  Min saw crowns on both of them and those have not turned out to be related.  I'm sure if this site had predated LoC, there would have been people suggesting the &quot;golden crown of laurel leaves&quot; was the crown of the Prince Consort of Andor.  <br />Also the severed hand would hardly be appropriate for Elayne, as the Band of the Red Hand is in the next country over, and if they do leave Murandy they will probably be heading south to look for Mat, rather than north into another civil war (also the Band is mostly Tairens and Cairhienin, and Murandy shares an enemy with both countries [Illian and Andor, respectivly], so they aren't necessarily in a hostile country).  Elayne would hardly use them in any case as about half the Band is from Cairhien, and they are seen as Dragonsworn (Egwene's 'logic' in LoC aside, they aren't really Dragonsworn - they follow Mat, and he is not sworn to Rand: he is more of an ally than a follower) which is another connection Elayne want's rather badly to avoid.  If the hand had been symbolic or representaive of something, rather than an actual part of a real person, there would likely have been some indication in the viewing, as most symbolic dreams and viewings have.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


created: 2003-11-01 13:12:35
subject: <b>Re:UNRELATED</b>
body:
Just a few points to consider. Even though the Band has felt drawn to go south looking for Mat, I have doubts as to them going that way. When they parted company with Mat, he was with Elayne, with orders from Rand to see her safely back to Caemlyn. With news of civil war in Andor, and the armies gathering there, it is almost a sure thing that the Band will learn or already knows that Elayne is in Caemlyn. I believe it would make sense for them to have every reason to believe that Mat is there with her. Maybe they won't go there specifically to help Elayne, but they would sure go there if that is where they thought Mat was. <br /><br />If Mat is destined to marry Tuon and help bring the Seanchan to Rand's side, he doesn't need the Band there. He will have the Seanchan army. <br /><br />Also, unless the Last Battle is going to be fought in the south, going that way puts the Band moving in the wrong direction. Not that I think all the fighting is going to happen in one place, but, I believe the bulk of the battles are going to occur to the north, most likely in the Carralain Grass, IMO.<br /><br />One other viewing of Min was of Thom and the White Tower. Unless Mat and Thom split up pretty soon (which I don't foresee), this means Thom, Mat and Tuon will be going that way in the near future. Thom's letter from Moiraine is evidence against Elaida. Egwene's dream about being saved by Seanchan almost surely indicates Tuon. Mat will almost certainly stick with her. The Band isn't really needed in Tar Valon, since Gareth Byrne already has an army there. So perhaps it is not too far-fetched to believe that the Band will end up helping Elayne.<br /><br />Min's viewing of Elayne's severed hand that wasn't hers, makes no mention of it being bloody, so this could easily indicate that it was indeed symbolic and not literal.<br /><br />IIRC, the Band is made up of people from quite a few countries(originally around 6,000 mostly Tairen and Cairheinen, now more than doubled in size from the refugees picked up along the way). When they marched south from Maerone, Mat made it clear to them that they no longer belonged to the country they were born in, rather they now belonged to the Band.(LoC, A Different Dance). It almost looks like RJ specifically put that little bit of information in there for a reason, especially given Elayne's illogical line of thinking. She may not want them, but they may be her only recourse. <br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2003-11-01 16:14:37
subject: <b>hallejulah!</b>
body:
a theory, finally!<br />not quite sure what i think, but congrats on getting this past the theory-eating-monster....<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">hot damn.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-11-01 17:58:12
subject: <b>execution</b>
body:
I think that an axe sybolinbg an execution makes sense. Perhapes Elyane will lose the siege and be captured and shieled by a tratior or something and will be set up for execution, but she'll get away, of course. Or maybe not. Who knows?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>Insert theme music here</i></font><p></p>


created: 2003-11-01 21:12:52
subject: <b>Splitting Mussels</b>
body:
To Mussels: The Whitecloaks embody all the fanatism and sadism of the Teutonic Knights and the Spanish Inquisition. It may shock you, but the use of the red-hot iron in this fashion was common in the Inquisition's torture chambers for both women and men. I'm sure that RJ is aware of that (why do you think he has so far not shown the Questioners in action?). I wouldn't be surprised (though sickened) if the Whitecloaks tortured like the Inquisitors (who made the Nazi SS look like abusive amateurs). I admit that it's possible the red-hot iron would merely be used to torture Elayne. Abortion and execution does seem overkill.<br /><br />I agree with the notion that Andor is important to the Shadow, and that treachery will come from within to help escalate the fall of Caemlyn. And that it's important to the weaving of the Pattern. Witness all the different armies converging on Andor and the presence of Moridin. Andor is entwined with the White Tower due to its old alliance with the Aes Sedai. All we know is that the iron and axe mean danger to Elayn and that's not good for the Light. Let's not forget two huge foreshadowing in previous books: in Egwene's Testing Arch experience, Caemlyn fell to the Shadow and was scoured by Myrddraal; in one of Rand's possible world experiences (in the travel to Falme) Caemlyn fell to the Seanchan. Twice has such an important capital suffered this possible fate in the books! If this is not foreshadowing, I don't know what it is.<br /><br />This is widely taken for granted, I know, but serious kudos to RJ for such byzantine thinking and intrigues!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Gaeran Amaconde<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />Grand Historian at the Court of the Sun<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />One of Those Chosen to Bring the Light<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" />Master of Graendal's Revels<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" />&quot;If sometimes our dreams come true, what of our nightmares?&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-11-02 14:19:11
subject: <b>Agree, sorta</b>
body:
I like your evidence that dis-proves the Hand theory, but i dont really agree with the theory of a trial.  I still voted you up, though.<br /><br />kaz<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Of all that is written, I love only that which is written in blood.  Write with blood, and you will discover that blood is spirit.<br /><br />It is not easy to understand the blood of another.  I hate the reading idler.  -Nietzsche</font><p></p>


created: 2003-11-02 18:40:40
subject: <b>My take on the Red hot iron and axe.</b>
body:
I agree, the iron and axe fit with Perrin. <br /><br />IMHO, when Rand is collared by Suroth, Semirhage, Tuon or an imposter, those swirling colors in the taverens` heads will manifest into a stark picture for Perrin, and Rand`s great pain will be felt by the women he is bonded to.<br /><br />BTW, before I go any further, Rand`s meeting coming up with Suroth at the end of CoT, is a jump ahead in time, much as Egwene travelling to Dragonmount in an earlier book. IMO.<br /><br />By the time the collar is made, Faile will have been rescued, and Perrin gets the picture in his head.<br /><br />He knows he must be there for Rand a second time, so will Travel to Rand. Likewise, Elayne and Avienda will do the same. Perrin will chop off the hand of the damane holding the leash and that takes care of part of the viewings.<br /><br />Or not!<br /><br />I`m not totally sold on this anymore, because the hand viewing was not described as bloody {but it could have been.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2003-11-02 23:59:39
subject: <b>Question?!</b>
body:
why do we keep making theories with out facts to back them up<br /><br />Don&#8217;t get me wrong &#8230; I&#8217;m happy we finally have the site back, let alone some theories but really, not to lower anyone&#8217;s moral &#8230; could we please support our theories with fact instead of imagination <br /><br />at this point in the box we still shouldn't be think of Perrin with an axe do to the fact he tossed it away. and left it stuck in a tree. secondly there is nothing showing in RJ style of writing that he would put Elayne in to any kind of torture IE abortion from a red hot iron .... the only kind of torture we have see from RJ is the nightly beatings back when he was shield and pulled in and out of &quot;the box&quot; and that wasn't all that violent...<br />


created: 2003-11-03 05:33:21
subject: <b>Simple is often the best</b>
body:
Hey guys, I don't know if anyone has ever thought simply along the interpretation of this viewing, but a red-hot iron and an axe, are symbols of two common themes...anywhere.  The first is torture.  This would imply that Somewhere in Elaynes future there is torture.  Now we already know that after Pedron Niall's death that Morgase (Elayne's mother) was tortured by the questioners.  Red-Hot Irons are a particular favourite of The head of the questioners.  The second part is more grim.  The axe is a common symbol for execution.  This obviously means that somewhere in Elaynes future (I hate to ponder this) there will be an execution.  Perhaps the fact that they are together means something significant.  Perhaps Elaynes future holds that as Queen she will inflict torture and execution.  There are rebelling Nobles on their way to Andor after all.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;If it moves, you can kill it.  If it bleeds you can eat it.&quot;<br /><br />- Some guy who is particularly nasty<br /><br />The Gaidin of the Wolf speaks<br /><br />&quot;My God, I'm such a nerd&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2003-11-03 10:48:34
subject: <b>Don't agree</b>
body:
I don't agree with all of your interpretation.  I am not sure the siege can fail except from within.  The inner city is easy to defend and there are many who can travel to keep supplies coming.  However, what if Elayne's using of Daved Havlon to protect the identity of the kids' father allows him to get close enough to kidnap her?  This could lead to potential torture.  I do not necessarily believe this either.  I think this issue is still very much a RAFO.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">May you be successful  in all your projects.<br /><br />I am a pastafarion.  The Flying Spaghetti Monster created the universe, and no one in Kansas can prove me wrong.<br /><br />http://www.vengaza.org</font><p></p>


created: 2003-11-03 14:04:43
subject: <b>Foreshadowing</b>
body:
&quot;Perhaps Elaynes future holds that as Queen she will inflict torture and execution.&quot;<br /><br />And I guess the viewing would refer to a specific decision she will have to make about torture and/or (versus?) execution. <br /><br />I'm still not sold to one theory about this viewing but the symbolism of torture/execution makes a lot of sense.  There could well be foreshadowing to support this intepretation : Elayne's reflections and feelings about the questionning/torturing of Ispan.  Jordan insisted quite a bit on that and brought up her ongoing reflections on the matter a few times later on.<br /><br />


created: 2003-11-03 18:20:09
subject: <b>Ummm..... No</b>
body:
specifically to the notion that Elayne will have to endure some strange test holding an iron.  Nothing supports the existence of that psychology in the WOT.  However as of concrete information there is definitly something that we already know, the Whitecloaks are connected to whoever rules Andor.  IMO many of these hand references refer to the Hand of the Light and coupled with hot irons and axes I am even more encouraged that Elayne's future troubles will revolve around her mother's folly.  I have much doubt that she will be the one tortured but one of her main concerns (allowing foreign soldiers to fight in the succession) has already been compromised by Morgase hand.  In short a foreign army has already been hired.  Using them, while seemingly unlikely, shouldn't get her into more trouble and so she may choose to use them while concocting a way to eliminate their contract.  She may actually see it as her duty to accept their help as the other challengers to the throne may reject the contract in whole and throw the Andorans from one war into another, the second war more likely to leave people dead.  And there will be an advantage in her favor to help her gain the upperhand.  Consider that the balance of power between an Aes Sedai Queen with Whitecloak allies will be a little more equal than one with a non chanelling one.  Even considering this if Elayne suceeds(which we can all assume she will) there is a major potential for blood shed and strife between her and the Hand that would be worthy of Min having a vision.  Unless or until the Whitecloaks are disbanded Elayne is going to have to deal with them.  Valda alone will make that a trial and we are only beginning to know Ansuwana(forgive my spelling).  Ahh! perhaps you are right after all if not exactly.  Elayne has to see if she can wield the red hot iron(Whitecloaks) without getting burned or face execution(perhaps political)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where did these Skimmers come from?  I mean if they didn't want to read the book they could have just Traveled to another author.  Why risk arriving at the wrong destination?  Why risk falling into darkness?</font><p></p>


created: 2003-11-04 00:53:47
subject: <b>Come to think of it....</b>
body:
We know that Daved Hanlon is a Darkfriend, but Elayne doesn't know it. If people find out that Hanlon is of the Shadow, by association, Elayne is guilty through having children by Hanlon. The torture and execution may be related to this, either directly threatening Elayne or Hanlon. Quite a quandary here: Daved Hanlon, the &quot;father&quot; of Elayne's children is found to be a Darkfriend. Suspicion falls on Elayne, with evidence and/or accusations given by Lady Shiaine and Shadow agents, and the rebel nobles. To save herself from this, she must reveal the truth of her pregnancy. Yet, if she tells people that the babies were from Rand, she's still in hot water. The rebel nobles would still use this to try to remove her claim to the Lion Throne. Guilt by association to the Shadow and guilt by consorting with the dreaded Dragon Reborn are both potentially fatal to Elayne (a riot nearly overthrew Queen Morgase only because of her association with the White Tower). Thus the danger of the red-hot iron (torture) and the axe (execution) to Elayne, either directly putting the queen-to-be to the question and/or her associates. Even her female channeling friends would not take kindly to Elayne's association with a Darkfriend (who was highly placed and maintained by Elayne in spite of the loathing he inspires--very suspicious in itself) or the Dragon Reborn.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Gaeran Amaconde<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />Grand Historian at the Court of the Sun<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />One of Those Chosen to Bring the Light<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" />Master of Graendal's Revels<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" />&quot;If sometimes our dreams come true, what of our nightmares?&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-11-04 01:25:56
subject: <b>dunno</b>
body:
Min viewed the rose crown above Elayne's head, so it's pretty certain she'll become queen.  I doubt it was just because her mom was queen at the time.  I like the post about it just meaning torture and execution, but not it turning out that way.  Daved Hanlon plans on kidnapping and &quot;breaking that longlegged bit to saddle,&quot; so that would fit in with the first part.  No matter how it turns out, I doubt Hanlon will survive it, so that could be the execution part.  Although I don't see under what circumstance he'd be executed.  I think he'd just be killed on sight.<br /><br />Another idea I saw on the message board was that Daved Hanlon IS the axe.  He is the only character described as having an axe-like face.  But Min hasn't had any other viewings of an item being a person.  Just animals being people.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Wartherded by Phil Reborn<br /><br />CW</font><p></p>


created: 2003-11-04 11:15:04
subject: <b>Rand would never let Elayne lose Andor</b>
body:
We all know that Elayne is pregnant with Rand's children.  That only forces me to conclude that he will not let anyone really put her in danger.  It obvious the Aiel and Saldaens have orders to interfere if she starts to lose the rebelling nobles.  Just food for thought.


created: 2003-11-04 13:41:54
subject: <b>Put to the Question</b>
body:
Perhaps the red-hot iron represents Elayne putting someone to the question, something that she has yet had to do. RJ has made a point of showing how Elayne is intrigued (well, maybe just interested) by the subject of torture in it's various forms (she has no clue what method the Sister's use and WANTS to know).<br /><br />We know that she is trying to play a young Agatha Christie around the Palace, trying to figure out who killed Adeleas. She might end up seeing the need to use torture to question her suspects. Maybe something else will happen and she will feel the need to resort to torture to get to the bottom of it. Considering Elayne's personallity, I really don't think using this method would go easy on her conscience, and could have a drastic effect on her emotionally (much like Perrin's using his axe to question a prisoner).<br /><br />And, of course, the axe in the vision of Elayne would be the Executioner's axe that is used to put the person she has questioned to death (maybe she even does it herself as several real world kings have been wont to do, although i don't know if any real world queens ever did so).<br /><br />Of course, I am assuming that Elayne is the person using the red-hot iron (or ordering it done). It could quite possibly be that SHE is the victim of these two items.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">--imlad</font><p></p>


created: 2003-11-04 18:16:21
subject: <b>Regarding the a'dam</b>
body:
That couldn't happen.  You stated that theories are floating around that Elayne may chop off Rand's hand to free him from the a'dam and then cauterize the wound with the iron.  The portion of the a'dam that would be put on Rand is the collar, not the bracelets.  And I doubt anyone will be chopping off Rand's head.<br /><br />I disagree that Elayne will be put to some sort of trial by fire.  While I agree that the world of WoT has a bit of a medieval feel to it, I just don't see this happening.  I'll eat my words if I'm wrong, but I don't see Elayne losing a hand any more than I see Rand losing his head.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />  Erith  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />The higher, the fewer.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-11-04 19:38:15
subject: <b>There is still no answer to the Viewings.</b>
body:
Would like to clarify a point or two:<br /><br />Onarishma---About Morgase`s Treaty with the White Cloaks:<br />Balwer, in his POV, {don`t remember which book, sorry}, said he had taken the Treaty with him when they fled Amidor. But, of course, only we, the readers, know this.  Therefore, the White Cloaks have no Treaty, and noone but Balwer and Pedron Neald knew about it-not Asunawa or Valda.<br /><br />Gaeran, etal----I don`t understand why the Andorans would be fighting mad about Rand being the father of the babes. After all, he IS the Dragon Reborn and IS the son of Tigrain, the previous Daughter Heir of Andor. If the crunch came, surely this would become known. <br /><br />Daved Hanlon is another matter. It could be that will be a connection to the viewing. It would be a danger to Elayne.<br /><br />We will have to RAFO.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2003-11-05 09:37:11
subject: <b>Hey deadsy</b>
body:
Your idea of Hanlon being the axe kinda makes sense.  That would make Lady Shiaine the &quot;red-hot iron&quot;.  I think that fits her pretty well (a little more symbolic, but she's definitely iron and has anger issues, plus we saw her use a dagger that charred wood in EotW).<br /><br />Min said the viewing meant danger, not anything else.  There does not have to be anything bad happening to or from Elayne to fulfill that, as long as the danger exists then the viewing is fulfilled.  The red-hot iron and axe would be representative of the source of the danger.<br /><br />From what I've seen, there are only 2 possibilities for that.  Either the viewing depicts Shiaine and Hanlon as items (they are definitely a danger to Elayne, fulfilling the viewing) or the Whitecloaks (she's AS and claiming a prolly soon to be discovered DF is the father of her children, more than enough to turn her over to the Questioners if they can get her).  <br /><br />I don't think the WC are likely since they aren't really in the area and are trying to meet with a potential Ally who has the power to control AS.  Of course if they do gain the ability to control/shield AS then they would definitely become a threat to Elayne.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Fyatuk Loth<br />Pope Consort to Grand Mistress Krista Sedai<br />Minister to the Way of What<br />Warder to Egwene Dreamwalker (donate WSe please)<br /><br />Currently stalking Belals Girl.<br /><br />WTF?</font><p></p>


created: 2003-11-05 10:47:03
subject: <b>Some replies</b>
body:
Overall I'm glad that it seems I could at least convince most people that the iron &amp; the axe have nothing to do with Rand losing a hand, and that the axe means a potential execution of Elayne.<br /><br />I admit that it's possible that the red-hot iron just means a bit torture for Elayne as Wolf_Gaidin suggested. <br /><br />But since both symbols, iron and axe, are close together in one viewing I believe both will also be connected in reality. The first symbol will lead to the second. <br />If Elayne will be tortured it's seperated from an execution.  <br /><br />Furthermore, if someone wants to execute Elayne, I don't see why he wants to torture her before that.<br />Besides, a red-hot iron would probably not be the best and only item to torture someone. <br /> <br />Therefore I believe in a trial, that Elayne has something to do with the red-hot iron because if she fails the axe awaits her. <br /><br /><br /><br />To Floffe, Tomas &amp; jofraz,<br /><br />You all said that the iron and the axe has something to do with Perrin.<br />I don't understand that because it's a viewing around <i> Elayne </i>. That means the symbols are important for her.<br /><br />Besides, normally Perrin's symbol is a wolf.<br />I don't see why a red-hot iron and an axe points to Perrin. <br />E.g. also Loial could hold a red-hot iron and has an axe.<br /><br /><br /><br />To BlindSight24,<br /><br /><b> why do we keep making theories with out facts to back them up<br /><br />Don&#8217;t get me wrong &#8230; I&#8217;m happy we finally have the site back, let alone some theories but really, not to lower anyone&#8217;s moral &#8230; could we please support our theories with fact instead of imagination <br /><br />at this point in the box we still shouldn't be think of Perrin with an axe do to the fact he tossed it away. and left it stuck in a tree. secondly there is nothing showing in RJ style of writing that he would put Elayne in to any kind of torture IE abortion from a red hot iron .... the only kind of torture we have see from RJ is the nightly beatings back when he was shield and pulled in and out of &quot;the box&quot; and that wasn't all that violent... </b><br /><br />That's of course an absurd argument. <br /><br />RJ has also not killed a main character, nevertheless it's possible that it could happen in the future. Only because something did not happen in the yet, doesn't mean it will never happen. So far it was not neccessary for the plot to burn Elayne with a red-hot iron. <br />If you would be right RJ could never surprize us again.<br /><br />Besides, note that I did not say that Elayne will be tortured (for torture's sake) or spoke of an abortion.<br /><br />Finally, we have seen several times that people were tortured, not only Rand (e.g. Damane, Darkfriends etc).<br /><br /><br />To Deadsy &amp; Fyatuk,<br /><br />Yeah I suggested not long ago on the WoT MB that Hanlon could be the axe because of his axe-like face.<br /><br />But as Deadsy already said, an item in a viewing never meant a person. <br />Sometimes an animal can be a person but even then the animal is closely connected with the person.<br /><br />And, Fyatuk, I really don't see that Shiaine is a red-hot iron. <br /><br /><br />To Erith,<br /><br /><b> That couldn't happen. You stated that theories are floating around that Elayne may chop off Rand's hand to free him from the a'dam and then cauterize the wound with the iron. The portion of the a'dam that would be put on Rand is the collar, not the bracelets. And I doubt anyone will be chopping off Rand's head. </b><br /><br />Yub. That's another reason why this theory makes not much sense. <br /><br /><b> I disagree that Elayne will be put to some sort of trial by fire. While I agree that the world of WoT has a bit of a medieval feel to it, I just don't see this happening. I'll eat my words if I'm wrong, but I don't see Elayne losing a hand any more than I see Rand losing his head. </b><br /><br />Rand will lose a hand but not Elayne. <br />


created: 2003-11-05 11:45:40
subject: <b>Etzel-you Have changed my mind about Perrin</b>
body:
As you could see at the end of my reply, I didn`t want to defend my post!<br /><br />Nevertheless, I had lived with this idea so long, it took your Theory to start thinking in another direction.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2003-11-05 12:44:01
subject: <b>To jofraz</b>
body:
Well, it makes me glad that I changed your view about this topic. Then this theory has some merit!<br /><br />In any case, I think it's not a shame to change ones mind if there is someone who points out convincing reasons against a (pet) theory.<br /><br />I also thought  that the iron &amp; the axe had to do with Rand losing his hand in the past because I could not find a better explaination. <br />But now I'm sure that this can't be right.<br /><br />


created: 2003-11-05 13:36:13
subject: <b>Response to Etzel's responses...</b>
body:
*grumble* dang thing didn't take my post...<br /><br />Let's re-create...<br /><br />Etzel Says:<br /><br /><b>Overall I'm glad that it seems I could at least convince most people that the iron &amp; the axe have nothing to do with Rand losing a hand</b><br /><br />I'm glad of that.  I always thought those were quite annoying and unfounded theories myself.  I couldn't see how they relate, especially since that would imply Min had the same viewing of Rand and Elayne (rand's bloody hand, the 3 Elayne's in question) and except for the lights/darkness viewing she doesn't see the same thing around multiple people (and the lights/darkness is merely a depiction on how the war is going).<br /><br /><b>Furthermore, if someone wants to execute Elayne, I don't see why he wants to torture her before that.&lt;B&gt;<br /><br />Umm, that's what the Questioners do.  By the time they start the questioning they know the person is going to be killed, though they seem to prefer hanging to the headman's axe (and as you said more than just a hot iron rod).<br /><br />Also Shiaine and Hanlon and company would gladly do it.  Hanlon wants to &quot;break&quot; Elayne and if Shiaine is involved you can pretty much guarantee the plan is to kill her (especially since at the very least you remove a powerful ally from Rand permanently and distract him).<br /><br />&lt;B&gt; I really don't see that Shiaine is a red-hot iron.</b><br /><br />Yeah it's a stretch.  But with RJ's penchant for foreshadowing real early on (ie Mat's noose in tEotW), I think Shiaine's first appearance could fit into that.  We saw her use a dagger that charred wood (not eatting it away like acid would, but charring).  The dagger is most assuredly iron and charring would could represent the red-hot aspect.  Also red-hot is quite often used to represent danger (white-hot is usually used to represent a grand goodness, etc), and the way Shiane talks she seems she's succeeded in making herself hard as iron (like Rand is trying to do).  There are several correlaries and I personally think its stronger than Hanlon being the axe because he's described as having a face like an axe, but definitely more symbolic.<br /><br />At the moment I'm definitely leaning towards the torture/execution translation of the viewing.  Min said the viewing meant danger and when she knows she knows, so the viewing itself means danger and the red-hot iron and axe would be representative of the cause (which Min would have no way of recognizing anyway).  By assuming that the red-hot iron and axe are the cause of the danger, then it doesn't quite fit with the trial/testing interpretation.<br /><br />NOTE: I really haven't formed a strong opinion on what is does represent, I just feel the trial/test interpretation is wrong, but then again I am often wrong.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Fyatuk Loth<br />Pope Consort to Grand Mistress Krista Sedai<br />Minister to the Way of What<br />Warder to Egwene Dreamwalker (donate WSe please)<br /><br />Currently stalking Belals Girl.<br /><br />WTF?</font><p></p>


created: 2003-11-05 18:23:25
subject: <b>close but no cigar</b>
body:
i recently tried to do a theory on this and ilthough i agree on the red hot iron to do with Elayne i think we are forgetting something here.<br />Min, if i remember correctly, had another viewing also of a white hot iron and a bloody hand. <br />the red and white irons are the same colours as Andor's.<br />the white hot iron and the bloody hand i think had to do with Rand. i think Elayne will try and cut off all ties Rand has with Andor,his hand and the axe, so that when she is Queen she will have full power, branding with the irons to fully stop him.<br />sort of.


created: 2003-11-05 23:47:00
subject: <b>or</b>
body:
I think Rand's already happened.<br /><br /><br />&quot;Rand screamed as he felt it pierce his side, burning like a <b>white-hot poker</b>&quot;<br /><br />later when the wound broke open:<br />&quot;Rand pulled his right hand from under his coat, <b>a hand covered in blood</b>.&quot;<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Wartherded by Phil Reborn<br /><br />CW</font><p></p>


created: 2003-11-06 01:50:23
subject: <b>abortion is very unlikely</b>
body:
unless mins viewings suddenly stop coming true. remember she viewed elayne right before (i think) she and rand went to go knock boots, and said she would have twins.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Whelp, I'm rich! So long losers who I've always hated.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-11-06 09:22:45
subject: <b>One thing to remember...</b>
body:
THere are a lot of references to the MIddle Ages here as examples of precedent.  WoT isn't a Middle Ages culture, its social and technological development match the late Renaissance in many ways.  It's closer to the 16th century than the 11th or 12th, and nationalism is clearly the order of the day rather than fuedalism or tribalism.  There are printing presses and extensive trade and literacy, and some cultures have access to advanced navigation methods.  Most of the ways WoT is still behind the Renaissance is because the dominant cultural institution is the White Tower, rather than the Catholic Church, so instead of monks preserving knowledge in monasteries and starting schools and universities or bishops patronizing artists, we have the Aes Sedai hording knowledge and suppressing innovation in order to protect their kind from oppression (they are dedicated to preserving a genetic trait rather than any moral or spiritual ideals).<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


created: 2003-11-06 10:34:42
subject: <b>Cannoli makes a good point</b>
body:
In fact, I have often seen people ask if there is religion in WoT. I have always viewed the WT as being both Vatican-like, and something almost the exact opposite. All male vs. all female, the secret machinization of selecting a new leader, sending out missionaries, influencing kings and queens, etc. Has anyone ever wondered where TV gets all of its wealth? Tributes?<br /><br />Of course the WT has supposedly always stood for the Light, by keeping the world safe from false Dragons(spelled false prophets). They are the reminders of the Prophecies of the Dragon, the reappearance of a saviour, and the end of the world(Armagaedon), all foretold in Revelations.<br /><br />The similarities and polar dissimilarities are almost endless.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2003-11-06 11:31:24
subject: <b>To Etzel...</b>
body:
I have changed my mind too, just like jofraz... I had *forgot*  (horrible thought) that, as Blindsight24 pointed out, about Perrin sticking the axe in a tree. Just a little defense of my post though, the red-hot iron could have something to do with Perrin because he's a blacksmith, but now I'm pretty sure it doesn't.<br /><br /><br />How could I totally forget such an important part of CoT? Must have been too long since I read it (2 months or so <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font face="bitstream vera">Quality procrastination should always be given the time it needs.<br /><font color="white"> BLANK SPACE BL </font><i>&#169;amilla</i></font><br /><br /><br /><font color="#999999"> Add yourself to the map below</font></font><p><a href="http://www.frappr.com/wotmania" target="_blank">See where wotmaniacs live!</a></p><p></p>


created: 2003-11-07 10:35:15
subject: <b>Response to Cannoli</b>
body:
The Spanish Inquisition's era was 1478 to 1834. It still fits RJ's timeframe of the 16th century. Sure, nationalism was only beginning to emerge, but it meant rulers having more direct involvement in torture, trials and executions. Andor is supposed to be like Elizabethan England. Torture and horrific executions still happen under the reigning Queen. If anything, the twisted creativity of the Middle Ages still continued.<br /><br />Perhaps Arymilla Marne, leader of the rebel nobles, will serve the role of Mary, Queen of Scots (she went to the headman's block), if Elayne win the siege. That's another possibility entirely for the outcome of the siege. Elayne somehow wins the siege, capture the rebel leaders, and faces the dilemma of whether to execute the pretender(s). Queen Elizabeth agonized over whether to execute Mary, but was forced by the facts and by her advisors to sign the death warrant.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Gaeran Amaconde<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />Grand Historian at the Court of the Sun<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />One of Those Chosen to Bring the Light<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" />Master of Graendal's Revels<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" />&quot;If sometimes our dreams come true, what of our nightmares?&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-11-09 18:38:13
subject: <b>who let u post this?</b>
body:
i mean really?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;You must be losing it Mulder, I can beat you with one arm.&quot;<br />&quot;Isn't that how you like to beat yourself Krycek?&quot;<br /><br />&quot;You're a funny guy Sully. I like you. Thats why im going to kill you last.&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2003-11-11 17:50:46
subject: <b>Clarification for Etzel</b>
body:
Just to clarify my point on this.  The idea of Elayne being linked with torture isn't about HER BEING tortured but about her being THE TORTURER.  I think it was the person who posted two after mine that picked this up so if the Iron and Axe are linked, then this will link in quite perfectly with her TORTURING someone and then EXECUTING them.  <br />One other point is that if this age is somehow paralleling the age of legends, we may have to accept that Elayne may not survive this battle and Rand may go insane because of her torture and death causing him to make his final strike at Shayol Ghul somehow crossing through the bore to literally go for the &quot;throat&quot; of the DO and the rest of the male &quot;good-guy&quot; channelers remaking the DO's prison behind him closing the DO off till Meirin returns to bore through it.<br />First paragraph clarification, next paragraph speculation...I don't necessarily agree with that bit.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;If it moves, you can kill it.  If it bleeds you can eat it.&quot;<br /><br />- Some guy who is particularly nasty<br /><br />The Gaidin of the Wolf speaks<br /><br />&quot;My God, I'm such a nerd&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2003-11-13 00:23:32
subject: <b>Just a point:</b>
body:
The FACTS that &quot;forced&quot; Elizabeth to execute Mary Stuart (Queen of Scots)included Mary's superior claim, based on her legitimacy.  Elizabeth was born to a woman not wed to her father according to the rules of the time period (his first marriage was not validly annuled, thus Henry was still married to his first wife), and thus her claim was inferior to her legitimate cousin, Mary.  Her son, James succeeded Elizabeth anyway.  Arymilla does not have a superior claim, but she could therefore be executed for a legitimate reason like opposing a lawful succession, or treason.  It is interesting to contemplate whether or not Elayne's daughter's claim is affected by the fact that she is illegitimately conceived (even according to the cover story that Hanlon/Mellar is the father).  Since she isn't (unlike in, say, Song of Fire and Ice, or the Farseer and Tawny Man trilogies, or the Serpentwar Saga) making any issue of it, one would assume that doesn't matter (especially since a Queen's bastard is undeniably hers, while even today, genetics cannot prove that a man fathered a child, while eyewitnesses can testify as to who gave birth to a baby).  The next point, is that while relationship to the prior Queen seems to be the main tie-breaker, a significant one is how many lines of ancestry one can trace back to Queen Ishara (Dyelin's claim over Elenia is based on the fact that while Elenia has more ancestors descended from Ishara, Dyelin is more closely related to Morgase).  If this is the case, Elayne's daughter might have a better claim than Elayne herself, as she has all of Elayne's lines to Ishara, plus Tigraine's.  Elayne is daughter to a queen, while her daughter is the descendant of the last two (3 if you count Elayne) queens.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


created: 2003-11-13 15:45:34
subject: <b>Response to Cannoli</b>
body:
You're right about those facts forcing Queen Elizabeth I to execute Mary Stuart. As to the blood claim to the Lion Throne, that is difficult to discern. In LoC, ch. 26, Elenia explained to Rand that after Elayne, Elenia has the best claim to the throne according to the number of bloodlines to Ishara. Lady Dyelin had the third best claim. During the last Succession struggle, Lady Elenia and Lady Naean wanted the Lion Throne for themselves (from this, we can conclude that Naean had a good legitimate claim). Now Elenia and Naean support Arymilla's claim. Granted Arymilla may be just a puppet (a lady who keeps fainting cannot be a good Queen, yes?), but having the support of two of the closest relatives of Ishara makes Elayne's claim be on equal footing with Arymilla (her relation to Morgase and Dyelin's support may not be enough. Dyelin's support is still suspect, as Elayne has told us). The other major Houses had very young High Seats, so their support doesn't really count for the other older High Seats. This means the present Succession is a very balanced civil war, not to speak of how Elayne still needs to present her claim for the Sun Throne in Cairhien. It needs a Dragon Reborn or the Shadow to tip the scales either way. Thus the stage is set for the prophesied danger of the red-hot iron and axe.<br /><br />Going off tracks from this, has anyone noticed how the youth of Andoran High Seats is similar to the youth of the rebel Tower Hall? Egwene is supported by &quot;too-young&quot; Sitters against Elaida and her elder Sitters, while Elayne is supported by &quot;too-young&quot; High Seats against a claimant and her elder and experienced High Seats. I'm sure if Siuan Sanche knew of this, she would see a pattern forming. Does anyone have a theory concerning this?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Gaeran Amaconde<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />Grand Historian at the Court of the Sun<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />One of Those Chosen to Bring the Light<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" />Master of Graendal's Revels<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" />&quot;If sometimes our dreams come true, what of our nightmares?&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-11-13 17:23:40
subject: <b>The Sitters</b>
body:
Hasn't it been mentioned that Elaida's Tower Sitters are also having the too young thing going on?  There have been hints that the Ajah heads are behind it, but I have no idea.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Fyatuk Loth<br />Pope Consort to Grand Mistress Krista Sedai<br />Minister to the Way of What<br />Warder to Egwene Dreamwalker (donate WSe please)<br /><br />Currently stalking Belals Girl.<br /><br />WTF?</font><p></p>


created: 2003-11-14 01:46:38
subject: <b>Yeah, I was going to mention Elaida's youth problem</b>
body:
Of nineteen houses, what are the odds that all of them would be led by middle-aged or elderly men and women?  Most of Dyelin's sort-of faction seem in fact to be older than Arymilla's, since Naean, Elenia, Arymilla and Karind aren't that old (none of their hair is described as all gray or white, and wrinkles aren't mentioned either).  It does seem more likely that Catalyn and the 2 guys who made their own decision to come might have been swayed by the fact that Elayne isn't that much older than they, and may be more willing to give them the respect due their stations.  Younger people in WoT seem touchier in general about the prerogatives of their offices than peers with more years on them.  <br />I think, Gaeran, that you have pulled the rules about status among the heads of houses out of your own head.  The most powerful House in Andor is said to be the lecherous senile lord seen in CoT harassing Elenia (Lir, maybe? ). That would make his granddaughter as the best claimant to the throne, if relationship to Ishara was a factor in practical power politics. House Mantear, which supports Elayne, was the closest to Queen Modrellin (her own House), only losing the throne due to a lack of female heirs, but Elayne makes no mention of that house having more status.  Status among the 19 great houses seems to have more to do with troops and funds available for use, than ancestry, which only has a bearing on right of sucesson to the throne.  Even that seems to be of less practical effect than real-world power, since Elenia and Naean are said to have a superior claim than Arymilla, but follow her because she has them in her power.  From what Elayne said in CoT, each house has one &quot;vote&quot; so to speak, and if you have a majority of the houses you win, regardless of which House among your supporters has a better claim.  Arymilla's entire faction opposed Morgase, and she won anyway.  The important thing is which INDIVIDUAL WOMAN is closely related to the Queen.  Elenia isn't even the High Seat of her House (it's her husband), and she has a better claim than Dyelin based on their lineage, while Dyelin's claim is better based on her relationship to the prior Queen.  Elayne has a closer relationship to the prior Queen that either woman, and Morgase and she were closest in blood to Ishara (even Elenia admitted as much to Rand), but Dyelin was ready to oppose her claim if she intended to submit Andor to Rand's authority, regardless of the rightness of her claim.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


created: 2005-02-18 21:07:52
subject:
<b>people who think that it means that Elayne will chop off Rand's hand to free him from an a'dam and later use a - iron to close the wound.</b>

body:
are idiots.  First, the a'dam would be on his NECK, and someone else's wrists, meaning that Elayne chopping his hand off wouldn't do much good.  Second, if he were wearing the bracelets for some odd reason, she would chop off both hands, which I don't see happening.  For that matter, I don't see any characters losing limbs.  Especialy Rand.  Rand is a swordsman, who needs two hands to use his blade.  He could make due without the sword, but like I said, I just don't see it happening.  As for the rest of the theory, I don't think even Whitecloaks are stupid enough to do a trial by ordeal like that.


created: 2003-11-13 21:41:10
subject: <b>missing uncommitted</b>
body:
Add to the list of uncommitted AS the 2 (minumum) AS that were made damane, the 13 BA that left the tower, Annoura (Berelain's advisor).<br /><br />Your numbers look like decent estimates.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Fyatuk Loth<br />Pope Consort to Grand Mistress Krista Sedai<br />Minister to the Way of What<br />Warder to Egwene Dreamwalker (donate WSe please)<br /><br />Currently stalking Belals Girl.<br /><br />WTF?</font><p></p>


created: 2003-11-13 22:56:33
subject: <b>Spectacular theory but...</b>
body:
You've already said you're being very approxiamte about these numbers.  Keeping track of one or two more or less Aes Sedai is a bit nit-picky considering you're just guessing about overall totals.  I mean, when the Wise One with Perrin spying on the Shaido camp in CoT (I don't remember the name, and I'm not opening CoT until the paperback is out) gives the total number of Shaido Wise Ones, she says 500, and Annoura says &quot;Half the Tower from one clan.&quot;  That could be literally interpreted to mean there ARE a thousand Aes Sedai.  Or 1,000 initiates.  You're obessing about one or two sisters and what happens to them, when the difference between 985 and 975 total could mean ten more Whites or 1.3 more for each Ajah.  This theory did a superlative job of giving a general amount of sisters existant and their relative distribution, but the numbers cannot be used as a basis for trying to pinpoint a specific woman or carp about the numeric inconsistancies, unless is on a massive scale (like 200 Reds suddenly attacking the Wise Ones, or a secret faction of 100 Blues discovered in hiding somewhere).  As I recall, there was mention of a single White with the Black Tower attack party, and this theory does an excellent job of why the Whites would only include one sister if being represented was important enough to raise a fuss about (Gabrelle mentions the Whites insisting one of them be included, but for one out of fifty, they might as well not have bothered).  The Whites simply could not spare anyone else.  It also explains how Seaine and Pevara were able to discover inconsistancy in the Salidar provocateur's story - her return to the Tower was not just a pair of woman slipping back in, but actually a 10% increase in the White Ajah's strength!  The return of 10 sisters who are not Reds would be noteworthy in itself (about 20% increase), and the fact that these 10 are hunting the Black Ajah means the hunt is more advanced than we would assume without counting heads.  This should be a FAQ.<br />Only fact problem I have is the mention of the 4 Reds in ACoS, p36 (I thoght they were part of the group sneaking up on the Black Tower, and so should be numbered in the 51)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


created: 2003-11-14 00:15:34
subject: <b>as for uncommitted Aes Sedai</b>
body:
i thought that there were some with the borderland armies but i really cannot remember if they were specified by number and ajah.<br /><br />also do not forget about the sisters in the woods where fain brought the fog beast.  i know one red died.<br /><br />that is all i can remember off the top of my head.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">patiently waiting for October 2009</font><p></p>


created: 2003-11-14 00:58:13
subject: <b>Cadsuane</b>
body:
The 4 Reds in the above post and the Reds in the woods where Fain was are the same chapter.<br /><br /><br />Anyway.. I think the uncommited group is supporting Cadsuane, but I don't know if she knows about it or cares.  Like those sisters in Caemlyn that said her name (COT12). It could be like when people were trying to raise her as Amyrlin and she ran away.  Does she ever mention how many friends/supporters she has?  We only know of Samitsu, Kumira, Merise, Daigian, Corele.. ?  Any others?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Wartherded by Phil Reborn<br /><br />CW</font><p></p>


created: 2003-11-14 02:17:22
subject: <b>Wow!!!!!!</b>
body:
That really blew me away!You must have put a lot of time into working all that out!It all sounds good to me.I wonder how many SAS novices will be raised to the shawl before TG?None, some, all, will be interesting to find out.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" />Tai shar<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Is it my imagination <br />Or have I finally found something worth living for <br />I was looking for some action <br />But all I found were cigarettes and alcohol<br />-Oasis</font><p></p>


created: 2003-11-14 03:52:35
subject: <b>Number of AS in WT (After split before COT)</b>
body:
I just wanted to mention one thing. The number 294 was given in COT after 51 AS were captured in BT and 20 by Rand, so there were 365 AS in the WT <br /><br />And keep in mind that a good number of the Red's were captured by Rand and Ashaman so there are maybe 160 or 170 reds in the tower, which leave 140 from other Ajahs.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Everything that has a begining has an end. And we wake from our dream.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-11-14 03:56:36
subject: <b>Well done!</b>
body:
Wow, that is surely a helpful tool for coming theories or discussions, though I need some time to comprehend everything.<br /><br />By the way, proteus2, you seem familiar... <br />Is it possible that you already wrote something like that about the numbers of the BA? <br />I can't really remember but I'm sure there was something... <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />


created: 2003-11-14 10:13:07
subject: <b>Thumbs Up</b>
body:
I like this theory and voted it up, but there is one variable that is underplayed: the nature of the Ajahs.  It seems to me that like the Reds and the Blues, the other Ajahs are likely to lean disproportionately toward one of the three factions, because they don&#8217;t have a dog in the fight, they wouldn&#8217;t be unanimous as are the Reds and Blues, but they would lean one way or another.<br /><br />It seems to me the nature of their work would cause the Yellow and Gray to lean neutral.<br /><br />The Greens, being activists, would lean toward the SAS faction.<br /><br />As RJ loves showing the Whites reaching irrational conclusions, they would probably &#8220;logically&#8221; conclude that supporting the strength of the Tower and the rule of law over mere justice would be the way to go.<br /><br />That leaves the Brown and I&#8217;m of two minds about them. On the one hand, their indifference to immediate events makes me think they are the most likely to split evenly.  On the other hand, prioritizing the library and their work might make them disproportionately want to stay in the Tower, albeit as the Sisters least dedicated to Elaida&#8217;s cause.<br /><br />Anyway, it&#8217;s a thought-provoking theory, if for no other reason than making you realize that the entire White Ajah in one room really would make up little more than a cocktail party.<br />


created: 2003-11-14 10:40:15
subject: <b>Good work</b>
body:
Loved this theory - it really will help in thinking about what the uncommitteds are up to, e.g. the group in an inn in Caemlyn.<br /><br />Incidentally (purely to be nit-picky, but then as others have been I feel reasonably justified in mentioning it), Alviarin is White not Red.<br /><br />But seriously, thanks for this.


created: 2003-11-14 12:53:08
subject: <b>Cadsuane and the other Third.</b>
body:
I agree with the idea that a significant portion of the third standing aside is organized to the benefit of Cadsuane.  In WH, Ch. 13, pg 311, Cadsuane thinks &quot; She had begun gathering sisters she trusted, those here (in Cairhien) with her and others, the day she first heard of strange events in Shienar.&quot;  I think this includes the sisters in Cairhien, Caemlyn, with the Borderlanders, and others (such as Tear, Illian, Lugard, etc...).  <br /><br />     In CoT, Elayne pictures a large number of sisters coming and going from the major cities like some kind of moving sea.  I think that that while these sisters are not specifically aligned to Cadsuane, she probably organized their current actions to maximize their usefulness.


created: 2003-11-14 14:03:14
subject: <b>A great reference guide.</b>
body:
Whether correct in every jittle and tot, it gives a feeling for where the Ajahs stand.<br /><br />As for the unknown one-third, some will be fence-sitters and some are definitely in Cadsuane`s camp. From other`s POVs, as well as her own, we know she has many plans, some designed to fail and some not.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2003-11-14 16:09:59
subject: <b>Fred</b>
body:
Thanks.  I couldn't remember if Cadsuane had ever thought or talked about any others<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Wartherded by Phil Reborn<br /><br />CW</font><p></p>


created: 2003-11-14 19:21:28
subject:
<b>this could be in the FAQ <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /></b>

body:
seriuously. isnt there one about the approximate size of rands armies? this seems just as good to me as those estimates if not better.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Whelp, I'm rich! So long losers who I've always hated.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-11-15 09:49:54
subject: <b>Thanks all</b>
body:
Thanks to those who posted replies<br /><br />Fyatuk, had forgotten about Annoura, the 13 BA and the damane, thanks!<br /><br />To Cannoli, I agree with you 100%, the numbers are too fluid and the given info insufficient to allow me to make assumptions about particulars...I was simply playing with ideas that stem from the numbers that I worked out. However, as you point out, I felt more confident in making statements about the White Ajah. No matter how you work out their numbers, the White Ajah is the smallest, and is going to be significantly affected by all aspects of the split. Thanks for your info on the Reds in ACOS, I hadn't considered that option.<br /><br />Deadsy and Fred Gaidin, I keep getting the feeling that Cadsuane's network is a good deal more extensive than we get to see in the books. In COT Ch12, a Brown sister heads east and a Yellow sister heads south towards Far Madding, Cadsuane's last known position. Why? To keep Cads up to date? Also, remember the other sisters Cads had with her in Cairhien before the Asha'man tore the Palace down. She only has a couple with her at the moment, where did the others disappear to?To keep her own network of Aes Sedai informed perhaps? Don't get me wrong, these are only suppositions, but I keep getting this nagging feeling...<br /><br />Tai shar, thanks!<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />amirebram, the number of AS associated with Elaida is specifically stated in LOC, Ch7 as being 294, and by the time of COT, prologue, the number of AS actually in the Tower, by definition associated with Elaida (except, of course, for moles), as being more or less 200. Take the 39 sisters sent to capture Rand, and the 51 sisters sent to the Black Tower, and you get more or less 200. Thus I have to disagree with your post. My theory tried to deal with all 294 AS associated with the Tower, despite where they currently find themselves.<br /><br />I am also waiting for Book 11!<br /><br />Etzel, this was my first attempt at a theory (indeed, a post!), but I am extremely interested in the numbers and distribution of the BA. Pity so little is revealed about them, I thought COT would at least begin the Great Purge...there are so many questions: who are members of the Great Council? How are the currently known BA arranged in their hearts? We only know of 2 complete hearts, that of Talene, Galina and Temaile, and Amico, Chesmal and Rianna in TSR. How many BA are there in total, and how are they distributed between the SAS, the TAS and the uncommitted faction? Anybody who has any info will find me extremely interested...<br /><br />Justa Boy, I agree that the nature of the Ajahs will affect the way they split. I considered using the way the Sitters split between the various factions as a reflection of how their Ajahs might split. All Tower Ajahs represented in the  Salidar Hall, except the Blue and the Brown, have only one pre-split Sitter, Blue and Brown having 2 each. If this was carried across to the way their Ajahs split, it would mean that there was more support for the SAS cause amongst the Brown Ajah, less amongst the other Ajahs. I also considered using the info gleaned from the beginning of the tGH, where Siuan is telling Moiraine about the Hall voting to let her go to Fal Dara. However, I eventually decided this was all simply too tenuous to go on, and decided to be, at least like the White Ajah, logical and systematic. Time will tell if this was irrational or not <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />. <br /><br />Jordanian, thanks, I know Alvy is WA. Sorry if this is ambiguous in my post.<br /><br /><br /><br />


created: 2003-11-15 10:19:43
subject: <b>Oh sorry, proteus2...</b>
body:
I thought you were RabidWombat (another member of this site) under an alias. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />He posted a similiar topic about the number of the BA on the WoT MB. It's called &quot;BA!&quot;.<br /><br />Here is the link if you are interested: http://www.wotmania.net/wotmessageboardshowmessage.asp?MessageID=64655<br /><br />Again, great work &amp; a warm welcome to wotmania! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />


created: 2003-11-15 12:34:57
subject:
<b>As all else have said..great work...   <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></b>

body:
I worked something similar out ..but no where near as well researched...for my own reference. Thanks for the hard work.<br /><br />One comment I do have to make though about Reds with Cadsuane..If I remember correctly when Fain attacked the tent with Rand and Cadsuane in it..the Aes Sedai that got killed was of the Red...so some Reds must be with Cadsuane.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>you know you can't leave Wotmania. It's kinda like herpes, you can just never really get rid of it.</i><br />Kit <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /></font><p><a href="http://www.cbgxtra.com/" target="_blank">Comics Buyer's Guide XTRA</a></p><p></p>


created: 2003-11-15 15:33:58
subject: <b>the red, &amp; 294</b>
body:
bcondray: I thought the same thing, so I looked. The 4 Reds and they were pretending to ignore Cadsuane &amp; her friends.<br /><br />proteus: I'm not sure if I agree about what the number means.  It says &quot;Two hundred ninety four Aes Sedai in the Tower, supporting Elaida. Nearly one-third of all Aes Sedai, almost as many as had gathered in Salidar.&quot; It was after the embassy had been sent to Rand and before Toveine had been sent.  It could be taken either way though.  We don't know how old the paper is or whether Elaida/the Tower are including the people who left in the numbers.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Wartherded by Phil Reborn<br /><br />CW</font><p></p>


created: 2003-11-15 17:17:31
subject: <b>Deadsy....</b>
body:
Thanks for clearing that up...memory can twist many things.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>you know you can't leave Wotmania. It's kinda like herpes, you can just never really get rid of it.</i><br />Kit <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /></font><p><a href="http://www.cbgxtra.com/" target="_blank">Comics Buyer's Guide XTRA</a></p><p></p>


created: 2003-11-15 17:47:25
subject: <b>There are a little over 300</b>
body:
Mat told the total number of Aes Sedai when he went to get Nyneave, Egwene, and Elayne.  I am not positive but check book six.  Oh and look at Egwene's point of views.  She may talk about it in CoT when they are talking about feeding everyone and the number of accepted and novices.  It is there quite a few times, but I can not be exact.  I do not have my books with me.


created: 2003-11-20 22:00:44
subject: <b>The Green</b>
body:
I'm pretty sure I recall reading somewhere that, due to their close affiliation with the blues over time, a large number of green's defected from the tower. This would cause a fairly sizeable hole in the numbers presented, being that the greens represent the second largest of the ajah's.<br /><br />Of course, I could be imagining things.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;I can express more emotion than laughter, anger and let's . . .&quot;<br /><br />Shooganooga<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-11-21 00:05:54
subject: <b>Shooganooga is right.</b>
body:
In &quot;The Truth of a Viewing&quot; TSR Min told Siuan and Leane that 'there isn't a blue sister still in the tower, not alive.' and 'there are not many greens left, either.' Sorry but the Ajah's didn't spilt all that equally like you suggested.<br /><br />Absolutely No One


created: 2003-11-21 00:10:35
subject: <b>Shooganooga is right.</b>
body:
In 'The Truth of a Viewing' in TSR Min told Siuan and Leane that &quot;there isn't a blue sister still in the tower, not alive, I know that.&quot; and &quot;There are not many greens left either.&quot; And in 'Seeds of a Shadow' in TSR Eladia said to herself, &quot;White stood with Blue.&quot; There will be proportionally more whites, greens and blues with the SAs than any other Ajah's. Sorry but the ajahs didn't split equally.


created: 2003-11-21 03:25:35
subject: <b>Thanks for the last quotes</b>
body:
Thanks shooganooga and absolutely no one, I missed those quotes...when I have time I'll try and work out more realistic values...<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />


created: 2003-12-01 23:20:26
subject: <b>Where the Ajahs are</b>
body:
You have undoubtably spent more time running the numbers than Robert Jordan.  All the Aes Sedae are where we think they are.


created: 2007-11-14 19:42:36
subject: <b>all those variables...</b>
body:
it's already been mentioned that most of the greens would have gone to Salidar. Min mentions that not many are left in the tower which means your number of greens on that side will go down. However we have no gaurentee how many of these greens made it to Salidar.<br /><br />When Siuan tells Moraine in the second book about what the Hall has been upto in her absence we learn Reds and Greens *really* don't get along, even less than Reds and Blues. This says to me that the greens are extra motivated to pull down Elaida.<br /><br />When we try and figure out who ended up in Salidar, we also need to wonder who could find out about it. It was originally a secret spot of the Blue ajah that you had to be able to decipher the clue to get to. This again holds well for the greens as possibly being the most friendly with the blues but it could pretty much point to anybody.<br /><br />It has been mentioned that most of the whites left the tower when it broke but most aes sedai actually left around then and this was before people started coming back. I feel that since the Keeper is White, we would have a lot of white returnees.<br /><br />also I think there may be more yellows in Salidar because of Romanda.<br /><br />(a bit irrelevant possibly but the tower most likely has a disproportionate amount of the Black Ajah as well. We know two of the supreme council and both of those have been from the tower.)


created: 2003-11-13 22:03:19
subject: <b>intersting idea</b>
body:
I like it a lot - good evidence, etc.<br /><br />peace<br />kaz<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Of all that is written, I love only that which is written in blood.  Write with blood, and you will discover that blood is spirit.<br /><br />It is not easy to understand the blood of another.  I hate the reading idler.  -Nietzsche</font><p></p>


created: 2003-11-13 22:15:18
subject: <b>Interesting</b>
body:
Good one. I got a mental picture of poor Machin Shin being run from one end of the world to the other trying to keep up with Rand's travelling.


created: 2003-11-14 00:08:51
subject: <b>Maybe it was after Perrin in The Shadow Rising</b>
body:
After all, Fain was made to track all three of them, he just feels Rand more strongly.  If the Theory is true, then Machin Shin would have gone after the only ta'veren in the place.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


created: 2003-11-14 00:10:07
subject: <b>Very good</b>
body:
nice ideas-- It is just conjecture, but good conjecture, nonetheless<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ADA- AlannaDawn Anonymous-- helping wotmaniacs recovering from their AlanndaDawn Addictions in a dynamic new 12-step program.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-11-14 03:10:13
subject: <b>Yub...</b>
body:
that is right.<br />Even Machin Shin was corrupted by Fain and inherited his desire to follow Rand. <br /><br />That raises some questions, though.<br /><br />Exactly how and why did Machin Shin take this up? <br /><br />Apparently Fain doesn't know about this. <br />I wonder if he could control Machin Shin if he knew?<br /><br />Also did Fain get something from Machin Shin?<br /><br />Is it possible that Fain's own desire has become less because of that and that this was one/the reason why Mordeth could become stronger compared to Fain's personality?<br /><br />


created: 2003-11-14 07:28:22
subject: <b>good thinking</b>
body:
I was wondering about why machin chin was waiting for Rand. I don't think it managed to consume Fain's soul though, but Fain's soul is so twisted that it changed the wind's being. Fain has that effect, like a desease. He infects everyone and everything he touches.<br /><br /><br />One another note, i was thinking about how to fix the ways and kill the wind. Rand hit it with pure Sadin and it seemed to be harmed and run. The ways were made with Sadin so it seems logical that clean, pure Sadin can fix the ways and purge the taint from it.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Fortune rides like the sun on high<br />with the fox that makes the ravens fly.<br />Luck his soul, the lightning his eye,<br />He snatches the moons from out the sky.&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-11-14 09:19:19
subject: <b>What Fain got out of the deal</b>
body:
Machin Shin consumed part/all of the soul that was Fain. Mordeth's presence though left a good portion of Fain's memories/attitudes. I remember someone once saying(has to be from the tGH, probably Verin) saying Machin Shin was the essence of insanity in a way. Well, Fain was certainly disturbed and driven before coming to Fal Dara, but he distinctly slides down the path into a whole nother level of cracked nut afterwards....Maybe that was Machin Shin, the result of still having something left of your soul after contact with the Wind...


created: 2003-11-14 10:18:22
subject: <b>uhhh...</b>
body:
I thought that this was common knowledge. I thought somewhere in the books it stated this exact theory (or maybe i was just talking about it with a friend). Either way its a good theory, just one i though everyone knew


created: 2003-11-14 14:59:07
subject: <b>Great Idea</b>
body:
This is a fantastic theory.  It explains a lot about Fain and Machin Shin, and it's well researched. Good Job!<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Squirrel Sedai <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smackhead.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/crazy.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smackhead.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/crazy.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smackhead.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/crazy.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smackhead.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-11-14 19:10:55
subject: <b>you got it</b>
body:
i always thought it was b/c rand was ta'veren and the pattern wanted him to go through the portal stone to experience all those probable lives. however, this explanation is much better. Good work<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Whelp, I'm rich! So long losers who I've always hated.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-11-14 23:38:14
subject: <b>Interesting, but...</b>
body:
This is a really interesting theory, but it begs one question: If Machin Shin hunts Rand and stays as close to him as he can, why wasn't it waiting for Rand at the waygate in Tear when Perrin used that gate?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /> Survivor of Historical Inquizition ... barely <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Who can say if I've been changed for the better, but because I knew you I have been changed for good -- Wicked<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-11-16 22:25:24
subject: <b>i disagree</b>
body:
IN the eye of the world moraine says soemthing about his envelopment.  something like some of it welcomed him as a firend?  she says it at fal dara. when they capture him and she examines him.  anyway. yah that seems to me to shoot a big hole in that.. UNLESS i am misreading it... which could be the case.. as i am under the weather and cant concentrate for more than ten minutes.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Mjolner <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bobbafett.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br />Somewhere, something incredible <br />is waiting to be known. <br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-11-17 08:54:04
subject: <b>Rand, the Ways, and Machin Shin</b>
body:
Good theory<br /><br />I'v always thought and I'v heard others mentioned it to, Machin Shin could have come from Shadar Logoth and that's why it greeted Fain like a friend when he encounterd it in the Ways.<br /><br />So Fain probably did transfer his desire to find Rand to Machin Shin, but not becouse it devoured his soul.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">You were just taking a basic personality test, and you chose to matched against men. After some serious number crunching, the personality test determined that you are most like Logain.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-12-04 14:06:50
subject: <b>Not exactly a revelation :</b>
body:
I agree with dilirah -- I'm fairly certain someone (I think Rand) explicitly states this in the books somewhere. Certainly I've always assumed this was the case.<br /><br />Still, a good collection of the evidence that led the character to posit this theory in the books (assuming it's true).<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Wood Shavings!<br /> -YusakuGodai</font><p></p>


created: 2003-12-18 07:58:13
subject: <b>Good theory</b>
body:
i like and agree completely.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Red vs. Blue<br />&quot;Sorry It's pretty clear your not very popular around here and if I'm going to make any progress at all I cant be directly associated with you I'm sure you understand.&quot; Doc to Griff then Griff to Doc</font><p></p>


created: 2004-08-06 22:02:12
subject: <b>Nexus</b>
body:
If Padan Fain consumed a part of Machin Shin, that means he's becoming a Nexus of Evils.<br /><br />He's got something of Ishamael ( or the Dark One ) inprinted on him...<br />He merged with Mordeth and carried the curse of Mashadar ( in the Dagger, all from spring to autumn in The Great Hunt )<br />And now he's exchanged a part of his soul with Machin Shin.<br /><br />The Dark One will bow before Padan Fain !!!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>War must be, while we defend our lives against a destroyer who would devour all; but I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend</i><br />~Faramir</font><p></p>


created: 2005-04-11 21:18:27
subject: <b>hm</b>
body:
mostly good, but alot of people are saying how machin shin consumed Fain, this didnt happen at all. Fain says it in (i think its) TGH, he says he encountered machin shin but it didnt do anything, machin shin was in awe of fain and didnt corrupt or consume him.


created: 2003-11-13 21:58:22
subject: <b>Graendal is a good candidate</b>
body:
She certainly seems the more astute of all the Foresaken. IMO, the DO wants the Seals, not to break them, but for stopping Rand from doing so. For some reason, the DO is not yet ready for the Final Battle.<br /><br />I believe Rand has this 2nd on his agenda, after obtaining a treaty with the Seanchan.<br /><br />To me, the foreshadowing is evident, both from Rand`s POV, and from Cadsuanes`s POV.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2003-11-14 00:04:41
subject: <b>Yep</b>
body:
Sounds about right.<br /><br />Obviously there is a Forsaken hand behind this.  Graendal's is as good as anyone's, especially given her predilection for forgery.  <br /><br />She was my number one suspect as well.<br /><br />As far as I know, the only other forger we have seen is Thom.<br /><br />Obviously it's not Mat Cauthon <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ADA- AlannaDawn Anonymous-- helping wotmaniacs recovering from their AlanndaDawn Addictions in a dynamic new 12-step program.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-11-14 00:31:04
subject: <b>I always assumed Galldrian's letter was real</b>
body:
It was just part of the irony of the convolutions of 'Daes Daemar' they were going on about in Cairhien later in the book.  In other words, the two most powerful men in the country, who were archrivals, and hated each other more than anything, were both Darkfriends, and each could have brought the other down if only he knew the secret that they shared.  <br />The Shadow can discover a man is close to a dangerous secret from a little hint on a scrap of paper that Min uses for a bookmark, and have him killed, or slaughter a man in his own bedroom undiscovered, or kill two women in cells in the most secure fortress in the world.  It is not beyond the realm of possibility that they employ TWO forgers.  They were pursuing the seals long before Domon met Rand, which was weeks before the very first pair of Forsaken popped out (think how long it must have taken Rand and Mat to walk several hundred miles from Whitebridge to Caemlyn, stopping or slowing due to channeling illnesses or temporary blindness, plus the time it took Domon to get from Maradon to Whitebridge, the length of Rand's stay in Caemlyn, and the couple of days to get to the Eye - no way was Graendal out by then).  In any event, she has been concentrating her attentions elsewhere, and not very well, as Rodel Ituralde has slipped through the cracks in her scheme and seems to have found a way out of her chaos.  She seems to have been too busy to betrying to steal from Rand, and her sources of information would have been better (does anyone else think Rand or Moiraine packed up the two seals in Rhuidean into casks filled with wool and loaded them into wagons without servants or gaishain helping - people who could be Compelled to tell Graendal what they know? ).  By the way, what happened to those wagons with teh Rhuidean loot and the seals anyway?  Lost in the Merovingian's world with the Pending Theories and interesting and intelligent Quick Poll questions, perhaps with Hurin and Else Grinwell playing a game of stones? )<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


created: 2003-11-14 03:38:08
subject: <b>Rand hid the Seals him self</b>
body:
Back in LOC in Egghead's POV she thinks that Rand had hidden the two seals and he wouldnt tell her where the were(not an exact qoute). This was before the battle and he didnt trust Dobraine much back then. <br /><br />So i think that he hid the Seal in a manner similar to the way he had hidden the Chodan Kal, no need to give the to any one. <br /><br />That would make it so that that there were to that he only knew where they were and one that Bashire would keep safe from him untill he went mad.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Everything that has a begining has an end. And we wake from our dream.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-11-14 03:42:13
subject: <b>I agree...</b>
body:
and I believe that Graendal did it on the DO's orders. <br /><br />What should she do with the seals on her own?<br /><br />Besides, it seems at least in Bashere's case that Slayer was on location.<br /><br />The question is why does the DO want the seals such urgently?<br /><br />If it is right that Taim is a DF (and everything points to it), then it's quite strange that he gave Rand one seal in LoC.<br /><br />Something must have changed. I believe that probably Rand's surprising plan of using the Choedan Kal for the Cleansing was the reason.


created: 2003-11-14 04:40:05
subject: <b>Just for fun &amp; controversy a different thought</b>
body:
Is it possible that a Forsaken (i.e. most likely Graendal) travels to the persons whose handwriting is needed, uses compulsion so that the person writes and seals a letter and makes that the person forgets this act?<br /><br />Moghedien does something like that with Nynaeve &amp; Elayne in TSR, ch.46. <br /><br />After all even if Graendal is a good forger (what is never told in the books), she still has to get examples of the handwriting and learn it, though she surely has better things to do.<br /><br />It's probably faster to travel to the person and compel him. <br />Especially if you get a last minute order from the DO you should be fast. <br /><br />Finally we know that Graendal was a famous psychologist in the AoL and thus is very good in compulsion. <br /><br />I think that is a (more?) likely explaination.


created: 2003-11-14 07:52:35
subject: <b>it is a looooong time since I have seen such a nice theory</b>
body:
very well thought out. <br /><br />as for Etzel: there is the scene where she signs with a flourish, quoted in the theory itself<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> <font color="a52a2a">Magnus Alexander corpore parvus erat </font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <font color="b8860b">Dissenting voice of wotmania</font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <br /><font color="6495ed">Frightfully stubborn pacifist</font> <br /><br /><i><font color="669900"> Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent</font></i></font><p></p>


created: 2003-11-14 07:53:51
subject: <b>I have an idea..</b>
body:
on why the DO needs them so urgently all of a sudden. Sure, he might have been hunting them down before, but it was far more subtle, never to the degree it is now (basically sending thieves and killers in to try and get them).<br /><br />My theory is this:<br /><br />We all know that when close to the seals there is a strong sense of the taint there, which many have speculated to mean that the taint is the reason the seals are weakening (which I don't want to go into right now, let's just say it's a possibility). IF this is so, it gives a very clear reason for the sudden increase in activity in terms of trying to find the seals. Before the taint was removed, the seals were going to break eventually anyway as they got weaker and weaker, whether they were found or not. They were being searched for still as it would be better to speed it up, but it wasn't that vital. Now however, the taint has been removed. The seals will no longer weaken, the DO needs to find them as soon as possible or they might never break. Hence the increased activity.<br /><br />Like I say, if you don't believe that the taint is weakening the seals then you won't believe my theory, but if you do, then I think it makes sense.


created: 2003-11-14 08:10:54
subject: <b>I meant, mierin sedai,...</b>
body:
that it is never explicitly stated (in a Forsaken POV or in the BWB) that Graendal is <i> a good forger </i> and thus can immediately copy any handwriting (though it's a spectacular ability).<br /><br />As I said it's just a different idea I wanted to point out. <br />It's possible that Graendal only forged Alsalam's letter but Dobraine's and/or Galldrian's letter was made in the way I suggested via compulsion.<br /><br /><br />To Three In A Boat,<br /><br />Yes, that makes sense to me, too! Good idea.


created: 2003-11-14 11:45:00
subject: <b>Like theory, but disagree on Graendal being the &quot;forger&quot;.</b>
body:
I agree that those hunting seals in CoT were acting on the same orders behind Domon's story in the first two books. But I don't believe that these &quot;hunters&quot; were sent or helped by Graendal. The timeline doesn't fit. As far as we know, no FS, besides Ishy was in the world until the very of TEotW. Domon's first thought on his troubles leaving Saldea occur months before the end of TEotW and what happens in TGH. IMO the orders to find the &quot;Seals&quot; came from Ishy (Moridin). After Ishy's death, these orders weren't really enforced , but still maintained. ie: those ordered to find the seals would do so, but with not the same vigour as if Ishy was looking over their shoulders. Then Ishy becomes Moridin. And as Moridin he finds out that Rand thinks he knows a way to cleanse saidin. Moridin/Ishy remember their old plan to get the seals, so Rand can't hurt the DO. So he goes back to his hunters from this first book and makes sure that they find the seals this time. The &quot;Hunters&quot; find the most likely candicates to have the &quot;Seals&quot; and go after them.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Founding member of the ASI</b><br /><br /><b>TP ADMIN</b><br /><br /><b>Simon</b><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-11-14 12:59:54
subject: <b>etzel</b>
body:
shouldn't she just as easy have compelled them to give her the seals? she was there to have them write something and sign it and she was using compulsion. why wouldn't she just get the seals?


created: 2003-11-14 13:16:21
subject:
<b>Yeah, you are right, peerio <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /></b>

body:
Actually it's quite stupid that the Shadow doesn't simply send someone who can use a MoM &amp; compulsion to get the Seals.<br /><br />At least I have no idea which speaks against it besides that RJ wants to make it more dramatic.


created: 2003-11-14 13:50:54
subject: <b>Simon and Three in A Boat</b>
body:
Simon`s theory about Ishamael being the one to have Domon pursued makes sense because no other Foresaken were yet free, and also having Moridin continue the search in CoT.<br /><br />Three in A Boat- I don`t agree that is was the taint on the Seals alone making them weak, but the increasing presence of the DO in the world, that was destroying them. As I said above, I don`t think the DO is ready for the showdown with the Dragon. Therefore he wants them so the DR cannot break them at this time.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2003-11-14 14:26:23
subject: <b>for the most part I agree, however...</b>
body:
You mention Loial's quote in CoT: <font size="-1"><b>&quot;But this makes no sense,&quot; the Ogier muttered, frowning as he read. &quot;No sense at all. Unless-&quot; He cut off abruptly; long ears flickering, and exchanged a tense look with the pale-haired fellow, who gave a curt nod. &quot;Oh, this is very bad,&quot; Loial said. &quot;If there were more than two, Karldin, if they found-&quot; He choked off his words again at a frantic head shake from the young man.&quot;</b></font><br /><br />To me this seems like it has nothing to do with the Seals. I think it more likely they were looking for the access keys (ter'angreal) to the Choeden Kal. Loial refers to &quot;more than two.&quot; It is known that there are more than two seals. And Loial would know that.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">--imlad</font><p></p>


created: 2003-11-14 15:34:49
subject: <b>Late with my responses</b>
body:
I see at least a few people have doubts about when the Forsaken were released. I may not convince anyone , but I'm going to try to explain my take on it. <br /><br />In tEotW, Moiraine first states the seals are weakening. I think everyone agrees with that assesment. We don't see ANY Forsaken in the flesh until the very final chapters of that book, not even Ishy. If everyone remembers or not, Fain tells Mo that he was summoned to SG where he is made into the DO's hound, then later returns there to have his mind distilled. I believe it also says that Ishy came to Fain in his dreams several times, but, no personal visits. This says to me that even Ishy was sealed away at this point, not free on one of his 40 year cycles.<br /><br />By the time our heroes reach the Eye, Aginor and Balthamel make their first appearance. It is not known for sure if the first seal is broken yet, but by the time the Eye is drained it is for sure. We also see how Aginor and Balthamel have aged, especially the latter. This was explained by saying they were trapped closer to the surface than the other Forsaken. <br /><br />The next Forsaken we see(in the flesh) is Ishamael in the prologue of TGH, at the DF gathering. So we know he is now out as well.(Rand's battle with Ishy may have taken place in TAR, so we can't be sure if he was free then or not). <br /><br />IIRC, the next is Lanfear, disguised as Selene, in TGH. We later learn from her, in TSR that she was buried deeper than Aginor and Balthamel: &quot;I was buried deeply, in a dreamless sleep where time did not flow. The turnings of the Wheel passed me by.&quot; TSR, Decisions. <br /><br />Given that fact and the early first sighting of Lanfear in TGH, leads me to suspect that all of the Forsaken were released shortly after the first seal was broken. Certainly some will disagree, but I see no reason to believe otherwise. If Aginor and Balthamel were released simply from the seals weakening, then the breaking of the first seal would be like opening a flood-gate, IMO. Afterall, the seals were designed to contain the DO. Trapping the Forsaken was just a side benefit, and seeing as how Ishy was not truly caught, shows how imperfect their imprisonment was.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2003-11-14 17:21:15
subject: <b>Moridin is after the Seals</b>
body:
&quot;Loial refers to &quot;more than two.&quot;&quot;<br /><br />Hmmm... I think Loial was simply expressing his fear there were more than the two dead attackers and that a third one succeeded in stealing the seal from Dobraine.<br /><br /><br />I don't think Graendal would be interested in the Seals.  What for? Graendal's personal &quot;goals&quot; are ways to undermine and get rid of the others without them and Moridin knowing - not much more, IMO. And she did well so far...  Her orders to Itulrade were increasing chaos but also helping her own interests in the sense that it played against Semirhage and whoever else is working on the Seanchan plan, and she will have the excuse of saying &quot;I didn't know you were involved&quot; while IMO she figured out recently at least a bit of what Semirhage is doing.  Possibly IMO, she also made Masema totally crazy using Compulsion or other psychological tricks and controls him trough visions and dreams, but that's another topic...<br /><br />Jordan gave us a few clues already that the Chosen are not interested in the Seals or believe them really important. IMO, if they know about them or care to give some time to think of them they probably believe there's nothing to stop or hinder the weakening so that the issue of who has the Seals and where they are is not an issue at all.<br /><br />Moghedien left one untouched in Tanchico - if she recognized what it could be. Someone, most likely Demandred, even provided Taim with one to entice Rand to trust him.  Asmodean was never very curious of them either.  <br /><br />There's also the fact that the hunt for the Seals took place so far only before Ishamael's death and after Moridin's return.  In between, the Shadow didn't seem to  care. IMO, this is no coincidence.  It's Moridin himself who is after the Seals and if other Chosen are now involved its on his orders.<br /><br />A further clue to that is the fact Moridin is the Philosopher and that Jordan clearly linked the question of the Seals to philosophy a few times with the Harid Fel plot.<br /><br />Another subtle hint it's the same person looking for the Seals then and now is the fact forgery of handwriting is used both times, back then in Tear as in CoT. And that makes twice for the Cairhien palace too.  Perhaps its Jordan giving us a clue it's linked.    <br /><br />Perhaps another one is the fact no Chosen but Moridin would even have known anything useful about the Seals, their history and location early on in the series.  Only he had the long years for preparation/reaearch and such.<br /><br />I don't have a definitive theory as to why Moridin would want one or more seals. Maybe he wants to break them, maybe he wants to prevent Rand doing so before the DO wants it to happen or maybe he and the DO will be able to tell precisely from the state of the remaining seals when TG will happen and plan accordingly.   Or something else altogether, like he wanted Rand to believe that the Shadow is after the Seals badly (and in that case, it means he was after Domon's one for another reason early on, perhaps to check on the state of one of them, IMO).


created: 2003-11-14 20:19:27
subject: <b>I like it so much i'm gonna believe it. But there's a big hole.</b>
body:
If Graendal was always in charge of collecting the seals for the DO, then why did the DO let Taim give his seal to Rand?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;I'm sorry Marge. But whenever i was holding the gun i felt this incredible surge of power. Like God must feel when he holds a gun..&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2003-11-14 21:17:09
subject: <b>Several things</b>
body:
A few people have wondered why Taim(an apparent DF, thought to be trained by Ishy) would give a seal to Rand. I don't think it's a big mystery myself. Giving the seal to Rand is a way to earn his trust. Plus, I'm sure it was an eye-opening experience to the Shadow as well, considering Rand's reaction to it. Maybe that was part of the reason as well.<br /><br />On top of that, the Shadow doesn't really lose the seal anyway. They know exactly where it is if they decide to get it back. Rand hands it over to Bashere in Taim's presence.<br /><br />I have also seen a few other replies asking why Graendal didn't just use compulsion and take them herself. We have seen time and time again, the Forsaken work behind the scenes. Moving openly is not their way.  Plus, Bashere has 9,000 soldiers in his camp. An arrow will kill even a Forsaken if she was seen prowling through Deira's tent. Why risk yourself, especially given the chance that Bashere might have had it hidden somewhere else? And there are AS as well as Aiel WOs in the palace in Cairhien. Again, why should she risk herself in that situation? Knowing who has the seals is not the same as knowing where they might have them hidden.<br /><br />Also, the Shadow has been rather ambivalent about the seals throughout the series. First chasing Domon in an attempt to get that one. Then later we see Moggy with the one in Tanchico within her grasp, but she decides to hide it instead of taking it. And what about Ishy? He has been free on and off for three thousand years. Why didn't he track them all down? As three-in-a-boat stated above, events are accelerating. It's obvious they knew who had the other seals, but now the Shadow is more urgent in its attempts to get them. <br /><br />I think the reason is apparent here as well. TG is fast approaching. When the last seal is broken, the DO will be able to exert much more power. If he can be the one to determine when, then he can catch Rand unaware and unprepared.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2003-11-15 02:27:11
subject: <b>Good theory here, people.</b>
body:
One question, though: do you all feel that the DO (I'll assume that this is being done on his orders) wants the seals to break them, or to keep them unbroken? I know this second one is not initially a sensible choice, but once you think about it that's the perfect plan: Rand is the Lord of Chaos. The longer he rules, the more screwed up things are. If Rand were to just smash the Seals (as Lews Therin almost made him do) then he would have it out with the DO spur of the moment, no Trolloc waves from the Blight, no broken Towers (not really; not yet. Not enough time to organize them into Dreadlords, anyway), and it would be Rand vs. the DO, mano a mano with the Chodean Kal and Callandor. This would be bad for the DO: at least this way Rand has a chance without having lost his hand (forthcoming), having his armies split, etc. etc.<br /><br />Anyway, I thought it was a neat idea: the DO waiting for Rand to get into a worse position (Moridin's gameboard) before he pulls the plug. This way (Rand having the seals) the DO is disadvantaged, while his having the seals would be a big boost for him.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2003-11-15 02:57:28
subject: <b>But...</b>
body:
if it is now such urgent for the Shadow to get the seals as it seems and even Forsaken are involved (Moridin gave the order, Graendal forged the letter) then why send only normal Darkfriends to get it? <br /><br />Moridin has with Cyndane &amp; Moghedien two Forsaken directly under his thumb (remember the attack on Bashere and Dobraine occured before the Cleansing) and he uses them for any other, compared to the seals unimportant stuff.<br /><br />Where is the great risk to send one of them, disguised with a MoM, to the persons where the Shadow expects the seals, using inverted weaves &amp; compulsion (either to get the seal or ask where it is)?<br />Or Moridin himself could go, no one would detect the TP.<br /><br />Of course there is a little risk but that never stops the Forsaken to act.<br />As I said Moghedien did something similiar with Elayne and Nynaeve.<br />Also Rhavin used compulsion quite openly on Morgase. <br />We have countless other examples for Forsaken acting (often under a disguise) in public for their plots.<br />And when Rand is ready to cleanse saidin all Forsaken are risked.<br /><br />Many people think that there are Aiel Dreadlords in the Blight (I don't believe that). <br />If you don't want to risk a Forsaken for some reason send one of them. <br />Or a DF Asha'man. Or Slayer (who maybe <i> was </i> on site in Bashere's camp), Shaidar Haran, the gholam. <br />Everybody is better than just a few DF for such a urgent task.  <br /><br />Hope someone can give me a good explaination, otherwise it seems like a huge flaw.


created: 2003-11-15 12:26:00
subject: <b>Something very important to add</b>
body:
(I had also forgotten it...)<br /><br />CoT, ch. 24, pg.558:<br /><br />'&quot;Two men ransacked my tent,&quot; he [Bashere] said, setting his winecup down on a carved blue table against the wall, &quot;one carrying a note I could swear I wrote myself if I didn't know better. An order to carry away 'certain items.' Loial tells me the fellows who knifed Dobraine had the same sort of note, apparently in Dobraine's hand. A blind man could see what they were after, with a little thought. Dobraine and I are the most likely candidates to be guarding the seals for you. You have three, and you say three are broken. Maybe the Shadow knows where the last is.&quot;'<br /><br />Also Bashere's thieves had a forged letter which proves the connection between the two attempts in CoT and very strongly indicates that the seals were the target.<br /><br />BTW, the last seal Bashere mentions is broken IIRC. <br />That means only two are still intact.<br /><br />


created: 2003-11-15 12:48:53
subject:
<b>Very well done you two.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /></b>

body:
I love this theory. Keep 'em coming as long as they're this well thought out, researched and written.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />You two have linked things for me that I never had seen before. Thanks.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>you know you can't leave Wotmania. It's kinda like herpes, you can just never really get rid of it.</i><br />Kit <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /></font><p><a href="http://www.cbgxtra.com/" target="_blank">Comics Buyer's Guide XTRA</a></p><p></p>


created: 2003-11-15 16:58:44
subject: <b>The theory is good.</b>
body:
I think it was Ishy that sent the DFs to get Domon's seal. Ishy was out longer and had more opportunity to track it down.<br /><br />It was a bold stroke by the Shadow to let Taim (a DF) give his Seal to Rand. They thought it necessary so that Taim would gain Rand's trust and then get close to him. (Serpent nestling in the bosom, to quote the Prophecies).<br /><br />They didn't think Rand capable of subtleties, so they used this rather obvious ploy. It always screamed 'fake' at me from the moment I read it. I think they should have come up with a better tale to tell Rand than this risky strategy. Players like Ishy often take such risks if they think it worth the price. Obviously they were in a great hurry to get Taim close so he can find out what Rand's plans are and then use them for the Shadow.<br /><br />No wonder Taim nearly fainted when Rand/LTT wanted to break the Seal! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" />  And now the Shadow wants the Seals back...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> Linda Sedai <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Proud member of the Embroiderer's Guild of the White Tower<br /><br /><b><font color="red">FAQ admin</font></b> </font>'cos the FAQ is where it's at.<br /><br /><b>Currently working on:</b> my 70th FAQ<p><a href="http://13depository.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">The thirteenth depository : A Wheel of Time blog</a></p><p></p>


created: 2003-11-15 17:31:51
subject: <b>I like the theory... but</b>
body:
I don't think it was necessarily Graendal. Either way, I do not think that it was an order from the DO because there is no reason he would give that solely to Greandal.  My opinion is that all the Forsaken have their own opinions on how important it is to control the seals, and each of them play their own games. I can definitely see Graendal taking a hand (no pun intended) in some of these instances, but it seems odd to me that she would be the sole participant.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="Plum">Gena Sedai</font></font><p></p>


created: 2003-11-17 00:23:43
subject: <b>Thanks Etzel</b>
body:
I almost can't believe that quote got left out, as it was part of the original idea in the first place. I must have messed up when I did my final version, and saved it to the wrong title. Even worse, Weird Harold didn't notice it either. <br /><br />Sometimes I wish I could go back and edit a posted theory. Anyway, thanks again.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2003-12-05 18:54:20
subject: <b>Well done...</b>
body:
works well....seems to fit.  <br /><br />As usual well done!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2005-02-03 18:01:28
subject: <b>Regarding why the seals were targeted ...</b>
body:
Sorry for such a late response, but I thought this might be worth mentioning ...<br /><br />I think it's important to consider the fact that the attempt to steal the seals occurred before Rand cleansed saidin (although we're not privy to it until after the fact).<br /><br />At that time, the most important thing on the Forsakens' agenda was to stop Rand from cleansing saidin.  This seems pretty clear from the &quot;coffee hour&quot; scene in WH.  Perhaps someone (probably Moridin) thought that Rand's attempt to cleanse saidin might somehow involve the intact seals (in addition to the Choedan Kal), and therefore arranged the theft to prevent it.  This fits in with why Moridin had Fel killed (assuming that's who arranged Fel's death).  Rand did discuss how to cleanse saidin with Fel (he thinks about it in POD, at the end of ch.14), and even speculates that Fel was killed because he might have &quot;puzzled out the riddle&quot; (as told to Rand by the Aelfin).<br /><br />This better explains, IMO, why Taim was allowed to give a seal to Rand in the first place.  That is, the seals were unimportant to the Shadow's plans, up until the point they thought Rand might need to use them to attempt the cleansing.  If the Shadow ever thought the seal would be needed again in the future (i.e. after enough had been broken to free them) for their own plans, they would never have allowed Taim to give Rand one.  Yes, it provided a good method to get Rand to trust Taim.  But other less risky methods could have been used, if they had plans for the seal in the future.<br /><br />Of course, this doesn't explain the plot to take the seal from Domon in the first 2 books.  But, I think that can be explained simply - at that time, the Shadow still needed to break a seal or two in order to free all of the Forsaken (even after one was broken at the end of TEOTW).  However, once all of the Forsaken were free, there was no longer any need to break (or do something else with) the others.  Therefore, they allowed Taim to give one to Rand.<br /><br />Of course, this could be entirely wrong, and the Shadow really does need the seals for some plot of their own at this time.  But, it strikes me as too coincidental that the attempted thefts occurred just prior to the cleansing.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Rise and fall, turn the Wheel,<br />'cause all life is<br />Is really just a circle.&quot;<br /><br />-BHT&amp;tM</font><p></p>


created: 2003-11-14 00:06:50
subject: <b>Cool theory</b>
body:
I don't believe that RJ ever follows a linear pattern of mythology.  However, if nothing else, this was an interesting lesson in history.  Thanks.  food for though<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ADA- AlannaDawn Anonymous-- helping wotmaniacs recovering from their AlanndaDawn Addictions in a dynamic new 12-step program.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-11-14 01:18:53
subject: <b>Not bad. Wrong, but not bad.</b>
body:
First of all, Illium (as Troy was also known), was famous for its invincible walls, which was the reason the Greeks used trickery.  Illian is notably lacking that feature.<br />Secondly, the militaristic and structured Spartan culture as we know it did not exist at the time.  The early Greeks who sacked Troy were Mycenaeans and instead of sity-builders, were a race of maritime priates and raiders.  The Illiad describes chariot warfare and individual combat between champions, which the Spartans as we know them shied away from (and didn't use chariots).  There were Greek soldiers from the city of Sparta, but they were one group among many, the expedition being led by Agamemnon of Mycenaea.  Later the Greek lands were overrun by Dorian barbarians, who were the ancestors of the warrior-Spartans.  The militaristic organization was promulgated by Lycurgas in about the seventh century BC, well after the Trojan War.  They taught discipline and subdual of individuality to the greater good of the city.  A Spartan mother told her son before going to war to come back with his shield, &quot;or on it.&quot;  In other words, better to die than lose your shield.  In phalanx fighting, your shield protected the guys behind you and to your left.  You were protected by your armor and your buddy to the right.  If you dropped your shield, you were letting down the whole formation, and endangering the city's success in the battle.  These were not the type of people who sat out the battle because their favorite hooker was confiscated, or let their best friend fight and die in their place, or start a bitter feud over who gets to keep a dead buddy's armor, or chase down an enemy warrior solely for personal vengeance and ignore the battle so you can run all the way around the entire city several times trying to kill him.<br /><br />Third, and most important, WHY WOULD THE SEANCHAN DO IT? It is a well established trait of the Seanchan that they plan everything out, and look ahead to future campaigns and battles.  They are extremely aware of the immenence of Tarmon Gaidon, and the importance of the Dragon Reborn's role in it.  They believe it is necessary for him to kneel before the Crystal Throne in order to win, which is most likely the reason for their positive response to Rand's offer of a truce - if they are continuoously at war with him they have to get him to kneel the hard way, by defeating him in battle and capturing him and dragging him across the Aryth Ocean in chains.  While they might be able to do it, it would be really hard, given his ability to Skim out of danger to anywhere in the world.  Once they get a hold of him and bend him to their will, Illian and the other lands he rules will be theirs into the bargain.  The Seanchan scout in Ebou Dar said the Blood wouold aloow Ebou Dar to be looted if the city resisted.  Therefore the Seanchan don't believe in wanton destruction of future conquests.  Suppose their plan as suggested above works - what the heck would they get beyond Illian (which they get for free when they make Rand submit).  It isn't ever his HQ, so they aren't likely to catch him there; Illian trades with their possessions, so the sack of Illian would hurt them economically; Tear is far more important to the Dragon Reborn, and Illian might be willing to ally with the Seanchan against Tear if Rand isn't there to make them toe the line, so it's a bad political move.<br />If they do make peace with Rand, they will lose everything they gained from a peace treaty, for no good reason, and it will likely crystalize the resolve of other nations to fight, as it will become obvious that the Seanchan aren't trustworthy.  <br />The author suggests they believe Rand is involved in the DotNM's disappearance, so they will sack Illian to find her.  Right, he's gonna keep her in the city closest to the Seanchan-conquered territories!  If he is the one behind her disappearance, why the heck would he meet with the imposter DotNM Suroth has set up, since he would know she isn't with the Seanchan?!<br />Suroth's personal integrity was also called into question, suggesting that she would almost certainly betray Rand somehow.  Wrong.  She's a Darkfriend, so she's implicitly dishonorable, and will have the Shadow's intterests as her highest priority, and is therefore not to be trusted, but to a certain extent, the Seanchan concept of honor and hierarchy tie her hands.  Remember how scared she was of Tuon, under the veil or not, and how her thoughts in tSR were of the political consequences of failure?  I don't believe that there is any overt reference to her being a Darkfriend since her conversation with Liandrin in The Great Hunt.  She still has to work as a Seanchan High Lady, very conscious of the concept of personal honor and face.  To betray a truce or a ruin a peace conference just to be evil would be a hideous shame and would probably result in her arrest by the Seekers, if she dd something that disastrous for no real gain.  The Shadow wouldn't order her to mess up on purpose when she can be of use where she is.  What are the odds her successor as leader of the Corenne would also be a Darkfriend?  CoT proves even the Dark One is careful about wasting Darkfriend when there is still use to be had from them, since he orders Alviarin to protect the Black Ajah (who, let's face it, have a crummy track record so far).<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


created: 2003-11-14 03:19:22
subject: <b>They wont take it so long as Rand lives</b>
body:
You should remember that Rand left some 200,000 Aiel in Illian. Aiel dont care about &quot;wetlanders&quot; but they certainly fight anyone who is Rand's enemy. Seanchan dont like Aiel and they will fight Aiel even if the Aiel dont start the fight first. <br /><br />They might very well ignore any peace after Rand is dead, but not now.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Everything that has a begining has an end. And we wake from our dream.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-11-14 03:30:51
subject: <b>I don't think so...</b>
body:
We just don't have enough plot time for that in the coming books. <br /><br />At the moment the Seanchan want to attack the WT, that's the most important plan.<br />Maybe after that they plan to attack the BT, an even bigger threat. <br />But I don't believe they will ever attack the BT because shortly after the WT war the Seanchan will stand on Rand's side (there are serveral prophecies who support this but I have no time to quote them).<br /><br />I suppose the Seanchan will capture Rand at the meeting, not shortly after that he will be freed, Suroth &amp; Semirhage are killed or expelled and Rand binds the Seanchan due Tuon.<br /><br />In any case, there is not enough time and it is not important enough to sack Illian (especially, this is again plot related, if Rand becomes an ally shortly after such a sacking it doesn't make much sense), although the Seanchan would surely try it if Rand wouldn't become their ally.<br /><br />


created: 2003-11-14 07:08:20
subject: <b>Well!</b>
body:
Theoies based on comparisons to real world events and myths always make me think twice.<br />Good pointing out. It's possible, but i don't think they'll keep hold of it.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Fortune rides like the sun on high<br />with the fox that makes the ravens fly.<br />Luck his soul, the lightning his eye,<br />He snatches the moons from out the sky.&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-11-14 10:53:44
subject: <b>I think that Tear is also part of the Trojan story</b>
body:
I agree that Illian is suppose to represent part of the Trojan mythology.  There is definitly going to be a big battle there.  Mat is supposed to blow the horn of Valere there.<br /><br />On the other hand, I think that Tear (which has some similarity to Troy in terms of its name) plays a role in some of the mythos as well.  The battle for Troy starts because the most beautiful woman (Helen) of the world is abducted.  The walls of Troy were built by the gods Zeus and Hermes and are invulnerable.  The city is finally captured only by a sneak attack.  In tDR, two of the most beautiful women in the world are abducted (Elayne and Berelain.  Elayne's name is similar to Helen.  In fact Elayne is a derivative of Helen.)  The walls of Tear were built by the AS and are darn near invulnerable.  The city is only captured by a sneak attack.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">RabidWombat<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> Let the Lord of Rambling Thoughts rule <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> Proud owner of a 2 star rating! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /> Someone stole all my cookies <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-11-14 11:27:17
subject: <b>Some more on the Greeks</b>
body:
Thanks to Cannoli for some details on the Spartans.  To add to his points there, not only did the Archaic/Classical Greek Spartans (i.e. the Spartans as we know them) not exist at the time the Iliad was set, they barely existed at the time it was written either (approx. 750 BC), so there is no Spartan (as we know them) - Iliad connection.<br /><br />There were of course Spartans of some sort in the Iliad: Helen was Helen of Sparta (married to the Spartan king Menelaos, who was the brother of Agamemnon, who led the expedition) before she became Helen of Troy.  But those Mycaenean Spartans, as Cannoli points out, bore no relation to the Archaic/Classical Greek Spartans of popular image apart from the fact they inhabited the same city and were hence both known (in English) as Spartans.  In Greek they were never called Spartans in Archaic/Classical times, but Lakedaimonians. Sparta was the capital city of Lakedaimonia.<br /><br />(By the way, if anyone's interested in the Spartans, I recommend the historical novel The Spartan by Valerio Massimo Manfredi - a very good read, and you will learn a lot about this fascinating, but from a modern point of view rather disturbing, people.)<br /><br />A more fundamental point perhaps is that (as I have written above) it was the Iliad with one &quot;l&quot;, not the Illiad with two. Incidentally Troy was Ilion in Greek (not Illium or Ilium, which was the Latin translation of Ilion).<br /><br />Finally, the Trojan Horse had nothing to do with Sparta (or Menelaos, who was rather dim) but was in fact the brain-child of Odysseus, king of Ithaca.<br /><br />Moving on to more WoT related comments:<br /><br />Regarding strategy, I hardly think the Seanchan will need to use a Trojan horse to get inside the walls when they have damane capable of blowing the walls up.<br /><br />Tuon was nothing like Helen, who was renowned as the most beautiful woman in the world. Tuon is nothing of the kind. Mat will go for pretty much anything in a skirt (or preferably out of one), but even he isn't interested.<br /><br />I could go on, but it's not really worth it - you get the point. An emphatic NO to this theory.


created: 2003-11-14 12:53:48
subject: <b>Matrimony Cauthon has it right, IMO.</b>
body:
Jordan never follow myth and legend exactly. He borrows names, situations etc, and mixes and matches to create his own fabulous world.<br /><br />Just consider his treatment of racial characteristics and cultural characteristics. Saldeans have tilted eyes, but not copper skins. Arad Domani have copper skin, but straight eyes and eat with chopsticks.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2003-11-14 13:30:29
subject: <b>To matrimony cauthon &amp; jofraz</b>
body:
As I said I don't agree with this theory but if it is true then you could not say that it's an exact and blatant copy of the Ilias.<br />It's still quite different as InsaneJawa points out though some parallels are identifiable (and that is what RJ wants). <br /><br />But e.g. Callandor as the sword in the Stone of Tear would rather remind of Excalibur than a Seanchan attack on Illian of the Ilias.  <br />


created: 2003-11-14 18:52:46
subject: <b>Ha</b>
body:
Good theory. your evidence doesnt convince me that this is exactly what will happen, but it was well worth the read. the idea of a 'trojan horse' is particularly evocative and i wouldnt be suprised if we saw some derivative of this happen in Illian.<br /><br />BTW isnt lanfear by far the most beautiful woman in the world?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Whelp, I'm rich! So long losers who I've always hated.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-11-15 12:53:20
subject: <b>I think Illian will indeed suffer, but....</b>
body:
I always figured it would be the Forsaken helping tens of thousands of Trollocs Travel to the heart of the city just to cause chaos.<br /><br /> I think your theory is weel written..I just don't see Rj going in that direction...I could be wrong, though..I've been wrong many times before.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>you know you can't leave Wotmania. It's kinda like herpes, you can just never really get rid of it.</i><br />Kit <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /></font><p><a href="http://www.cbgxtra.com/" target="_blank">Comics Buyer's Guide XTRA</a></p><p></p>


