# w_theory

created: 2002-02-13 23:44:35
subject: Lews Therin's ultimate role
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<p>For a while now, I've been pondering an idea, and I wanted to get some opinions on the matter. Here goes. We know, of course how Lews Therin died, and how Rand came to be. In the world of WoT, all the souls of people are reborn as someone else. No one but Rand though, has a crazy guy in his head.    <br />   Several times now, we have witnessed the attempted takeover of Rand's body by Lews Therin and we know how his ideas and thoughts sometimes help our new little Dragon. But if Rand IS Lews Therin, how can they both exist at the same time? I've got no clue about the third person LTT talks about, maybe later on it will be a merger (temporary?) of Rand and LTT when he is re-learning laughter and tears, (LTT DOES cry a lot). Thats beside the point though.  <br />   The major thing that grabbed my interest was that in almost all of the prophecies where the Rand/LTT's title is used, it's always The Dragon, and never The Dragon Reborn. Whether that is signifigant or just RJ's need for fluidity in his prophecy writing, I don't know. Perhaps, when Tarmon Gai'don finally occurs, something will happen to Rand, either separating him from LTT physically, or maybe LTT will gain control of his body; and in doing so, he will at last have the opportunity to redeem himself, at least to himself. <br />   Of course Rand will still have the major role in the battle with Mat and Perrin, but perhaps the quote &quot;The Dragon's blood stains the rock of Shayol Ghul, and his blood shall free men from the Shadow&quot; means LTT dying somehow, and thus, allowing Rand to live. And maybe 'freeing men from the shadow' has a double meaning. One would be the typical &quot;Game over, you won at last&quot; type thing, and the second may mean that when he dies, the Dreadlords (the ones that were turned to the Shadow, not the willing followers) may be freed to join with the Black Tower Asha'man and finish a new 'hundred companions' type group, or something similar. RJ has focused so much on the wounds on Rand's side being what kills him. That is WAY to obvious for him.<br />   Anyway, that's about all I've got for now, so I thought I'd toss it out there as something new to chomp on.</p><p><b>Jeordam says:</b> Very interesting theory.  For sometime (in the books) we read that Rand was hearing LTT's voice in his head, but then at the same time, it always appeard to me that Rand was taking on characteristics of the Taint's effect on him (i.e-going crazy).  <br /><br />Well we catch a clue later (from Min's viewing) about Rand merging with another person and all that (we are assuming that it's LTT)... so we get a fairly certain ideal that LTT really is there.  So what if LTT took Rand over?  Would this help atone for what LTT did, and he could save the world, defeat the Dark One, and ultimately be at peace and then give Rand his body back?  We just don't know.  We have precious little knowledge about what is and isn't capable of being done by a reborn individual.  We know that all are reborn, but for everyone else (excepting the heros) it's just random.  Do all specifically reborn individuals have to battle with past selves for control of the corporial body?  Interesting<br /><br /><br /> </p>


created: 2002-02-14 00:57:40
subject: The Seals, The Bore, And The DO's Prison
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<p>I've had a long-standing personal theory that the DO's prison would only be resealed/remade when the three Ta'veren (Rand, Mat, and Perrin) gathered at the Bore. I've always thought that the prison actually WAS the Pattern itself, thus the DO's obsession with destroying it and breaking the Wheel that creates/renews it. Remember Min's vision? The one with all the stars trying to fill this black void? Whenever Rand was with either Mat or Perrin, the number of stars increased dramatically. Now I know that when Min first saw that vision, it was about the whole group that came out of the Two Rivers, but since then, she's only had that vision with Rand, Mat, or Perrin. Anyway, with all three Ta'veren at the Pit Of Doom, the Thread-tugging would be enormous. <br /><br />Now here's where one of my zanier Seal theories comes in. I think that the Seals may be holding the Bore open in some way. Herid Fel's &quot;clear the rubble&quot; comment in his last note to Rand got me thinking about that. What if, given enough time, the DO's prison would heal itself? What if that was why the DO, this immortal incarnation of evil, was always in such a hurry? While he had the chance, he needed to break the prison/Pattern/Wheel entirely before his chance was lost until the next turning of the Ages.<br /><br />Now, tying both of these hair-brained ideas together, Rand and friends need to break all the seals as soon as possible, then arrive at the Pit Of Doom promptly and give the Pattern a little help with resealing the Bore, so as to not give the DO time to whittle away at his cage.<br /><br />I have more thoughts on this matter, but this theory is getting long-winded. So, by all means, fire away <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /></p><p><b>Jeordam says:</b> Ok...I must say...way to look at it from a different perspective.  I have never thought of it from that direction.  The only glitch that I see in it is on the dynamics of the pattern and the seals.<br /><br />We know from the Guide that from the Boring to the realization that the DO was able to touch the pattern was about 10 years.  The War of Power itself also lasted for another 10 years, at which time the Shadow was pretty much winning, and about to totally destroy the forces of the Light.  At this time the Hundred Companions and LTT got the Seals in place, and the DO was sealed away (along with the Forsaken).  So we have 20 years for the pattern to have &quot;healed&quot; itself, yet in that time we have the DO's influence increasing?  It is very possible that the Patter itself could be the original prison of the DO (actually the prison is the DO's inability to influence the Pattern)...but in that 20 years it didn't appear to heal itself (perhapse the Bore did too much damange????)  If this is the case, then everything else in your theory fits in nicely (but my thoughts are that Rand, Mat, and Perrin would have to actually do something at the Pit of Doom rather than just show up...what that is, I have no idea).  All in all, very good...and I think it just might work (in a wierd zanie type of way) Good job.<br /><br /><br /> </p>


created: 2002-02-14 01:54:13
subject: The Identity of &quot;The Other One&quot;
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<p>let me preface this by saying that it is not what I believe, but a very eerie possibility nonetheless.<br /><br />Okay, so I was recently re-reading EoTW, when I came across a pretty interesting sequence of scenes that leads me to consider another possibility for the identity of the third &quot;destroyer&quot; that Lews Therin ranted on about in WH.<br /><br />First off, I don't believe that this third person is also inside Rand's head, and I don't believe that it is another incarnation of Lews Therin/Rand/The Dragon.  I believe that it is possible that it is someone that has been around since the beginning, has battled and defeated the DO, and has done nothing but destroy throughout the entire series...I believe it may very well be Padan Fain.<br /><br />don't laugh just yet, give me a chance here.<br /><br />A) what do we know about Fain?  He is an &quot;amalgamation&quot; of the soul of a darkfriend, and that of Mordeth.  Mordeth was the man whose evil is so dreaded that shadowspawn won't even cross his path, and we know that he has as much hatred for the shadow as he does for rand and company.  We also know that he has been alive and causing trouble for too long not to have some major role in the finale of the series.<br /><br />B) We have heard from many sources (Flinn, Nynaeve, etc.) that the two wounds in Rand's side are constantly fighting each other.  Why should the two evils within fain be any different?  Isn't it possible that the two evils will kill eachother off, the body left with only the powers Fain has gained via his various transformations?<br /><br />and now for the part where it gets intersting:<br /><br />C) In Min's first viewing of Rand (EotW, p. 180 in hard cover) she speaks of a bloody hand and a white hot iron.  While I admit that I have often assumed this to be Rand's hand, what if it isn't?  Moiraine, while telling the story of Aridhol, mentions that under Mordeth's influence, Prince Caar came to be known as Caar one-hand, a funny coincidence.  But that's not where it ends.  That very same night, Rand has a dream where (p. 245) &quot;He is a child, carrying Tam's sword with a cradle strapped to his back, running through empty streets, pursued by Mordeth, who shouted that he only wanted his hand.  And there had been an old man (Lews Therin?) who watched and cackled with mad laughter the whole time.&quot;<br /><br />I don't know if I can piece it all together well enough for it to make sense, but it certainly has enough in common to warrant serious thought.  What do you guys think?<br /></p><p><b>Jeordam says:</b> Honestly, I didn't laugh at all.  I've noticed that in the early books of the series that there are many instances where there seems to be a reverence to one thing repetedly...almost to the point where it would be too obvious, but it's also subtle that it's not always noticed.<br /><br />This third &quot;person&quot; may very well be a type of Fain thing.  Those two evils have been battling against eachother inside Rand for some time now, and a perfect personification of that entire internal battle is that of Fain himself...who has, sort of, undergone that battle himself (only on a grand scale).  Perhapse in Rand's thoughts (and subsequently LTT's as well) that that third, mysterious figure is the personification of that very battle itself....Fain.  So that in escence that third person is not actually there, but that third figure is the sub-conscious recognition of the personification of an internal battle?  I think it could just work. [Thanks Mrs. Burnsworth...my HS english teacher...who'd have thought I would ever use such literary powers as she made us have]<br /><br /><br /> </p>


created: 2002-02-18 16:05:22
subject: Annoura, Cadsuane and the Black Ajah
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<p>Now I know that there are some folks out there who believe that Cadsuane is a Black Sister (mainly fuelled by Moiraine hinting at it in New Spring)...<br /><br />Those parts of the Books showing her POV do not support that theory. Cadsuane does seem a woman who expects to die any day now, who just wants to get that last great coup done... not somebody who struck a deal with the DO for immortality, power, whatever. Right after her introduction (CoS Ch.30) however there is a hint that other members of the Black might take her for a Darkfriend: when Annoura, Cadsuane and Merana are alone in Merana notices Annoura &quot;rubbing her thumbs&quot;, which she thinks quite unusual for a seasoned negotiator like her... If you remember Halima/Aran'gar introducing herself to Delaine in LoC Ch.30, she does start by giving the &quot;secret sign&quot; of the Black Ajah: &quot;hands at her sides, thumbs between her forefingers&quot; which an outsider such as Merana might interpret as &quot;rubbing her thumbs&quot;...<br /></p><p><b>Burr says:</b> Aha!  Good work making that connection.  My memory is fuzzy, but haven't we received other indications that Annoura is Black Ajah?<br /><br /><br /> </p>


created: 2002-02-18 16:36:39
subject: Just Pointing Out the Obvious
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<p>Now that I can actually submit things I just wanted to point something out that has been bugging me in countless theories. It has to do with the White Ajah's theory about culling the ability to channel out of humanity. I don&#8217;t have books with me to point out where exactly what was stated or when so just bear with me.<br /><br />It was said early in the story that the 3000+ years of gentling is wiping out the ability to channel in humans and everyone has taken this at face value, which, knowing RJ, everyone should realize is a bad idea. The ability to channel is in no way dying out. My reasoning for this is as follows:<br /><br />1. Not nearly enough men have been gentled to take out more than a drop in the ocean of men able to do so. Just look at the number of men in the black tower. Again, I don&#8217;t have the books on me but I believe there are about 3 to 4 hundred men at present with more coming in all the time. And this is just right now. So imagine the number of male channelers that have been born and died over 3000 years. The number becomes even more mind boggling if you do submit to the idea that the ability is dying out. That would mean that at any given time in the past there would have been many, many more men able to channel at any given time than at present. They just weren&#8217;t found. In the history of the 3000-year history of the white tower I believe there have been less than 30 incidences of gentling.<br /><br />2. Why are there less Aes Sedai than ever before? The tower has always had a policy of letting women who want to become Aes Sedai seek them out rather than the other way around. True, if a girl with the spark is found, the tower will hold onto them until they can safely channel on their own, but how often do the high and mighty Aes Sedai mingle with the masses? Even then, many of them, like Moiraine, are probably to busy with their all important tasks to be bothered with helping a young girl, like Egwene (I know I'll get comments about this so I'll address it here to. The only reason Egwene wasn&#8217;t left to fend for herself is because she caught everyone trying to leave).  Over time, the aloof Aes Sedai have become more and more distrusted and detested throughout the known world. Therefore, the idea of a girl going to the tower to become one has become taboo.<br /><br />3. Now that people have been looking, women who can channel have been popping up left and right. When the Seanchan took Falme 1 in every X women they tested had the spark and a great deal more were able to learn. The same holds true for Salidar. Its stated at one point that the active seeking out of girls has brought in more young women able to channel than had come to the tower in something like 50 years. And that&#8217;s just searching one area.<br /><br />One final note: I would be interested in seeing the number of damane the Seanchan have since they find and kill men who can channel almost if not to the man. That would help to see if the ability to channel could in fact be diminished from the race.<br /><br />I know this has been a little long winded but I had to get it off my chest before I went crazy for all the theories using the White Ajahs &quot;culling&quot; as dogma.  Please feel free to point out my flawed logic.<br /></p><p><b>Burr says:</b> I happen to agree.  It just seems too ridiculous to think that the Aes Sedai would never miss a male channeler before the channeler has children.  If they do have a chance of missing a male channeler, then they always have that chance; so if they ever happen to pick one up that they missed the first time, it is likely that another one got away.  Given enough time, there should be a lot more channelers than their average constant number of gentling accounts for.  And they should be growing exponentially.  The Aes Sedai's average constant number becomes more and more insignificant compared to the number of male channelers.<br /><br /><br /> </p>


created: 2002-02-18 17:57:12
subject: Book 10 and a missing Rand
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<p>I believe that Rand will not show up in Book 10.  There is already enought stuff for Jordan to write about that he can avoid adding in Rand one entire book and I even think that he may want to do this for some reason I have yet to understand (try to explain Perrin and Mat in previous books).  Remember, he is unconscious at the end of the last book and he has previously disappeared for long lengths of time to do his own thing, starting with the Dragon Reborn.  Rand may exit center stage for book 10 so Jordan can try to finally get his millions of plots under control.  This way Jordan may be able begin his final build up in the Wheel of Time series towards the last battle with Rand re-entering center stage in Book 11 with a real bang.  Hopefully I'm right, this way he may actually be able to finish the series within 13 to 14 total books he said he knows he will write up to at a book signing I meet him at last year.  Hopefully he'll finish within that amount of books...<br /><br />Just thought I put this up for some discussion, I want to know what everyone else thinks about Rand disappearing for an entire book like Perrin and Mat already have.<br /></p><p><b>Bad Ash says:</b> Wishful thinking.<br /><br />Although I'd like to see less of Rand in this book, the fact is Rand is the Dragon Reborn.  He's going to save the world.  The series is centered on him.  I can't see Jordan excluding Rand entirely from any books here on in.<br /><br />I really wish he would cut down Rand's segment, because Rand plot threads seem closer to an endgame than any others.  With Mat getting the hell outta Ebou Dar, and Perrin galavanting all over Ghealdan, it seemed that only Rand made any real headway in WH.  <br /><br />On the flip side, there is the simple problem of all the colors the boys see.  Is that the Pattern's way of trying to get them all together again?  If so, than Mat is closer to a reunion than Perrin.  He's a short ship ride away.  Perrin has the simple problem of liberating his wife from the Shaido before he's heading back.<br /><br />Of course, we still forget all the other characters.  It makes my head hurt thinking about it.  Anywho, I hope Rand's role is significantly reduced in this book, but I doubt he'll be excluded entirely.<br /><br /><br /> </p>


created: 2002-02-20 00:01:02
subject: Who merges with rand???
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<p>Okay, I'll try and be quick about this one, since there's not that much to say about it.  Everyone seems to think (at least the vast majority) that Rand will merge with Logain or some other Asha'man in order to save his/their life and defeat the shadow at some point.  But as I was re-reading Eye of the World the answer as to whom Rand will merge with jumped right off the page.<br /><br />Chapter 24, Flight Down the Arinelle, begins with Rand having a dream in which Ba&#8217;alzamon is chasing him in a maze.  The dream concludes with this paragraph:<br /><br />     &quot;He found himself staring at the reflection of his own face, pale and shivering in the knife-edge cold.  Ba'alzamon's image grew behind his, staring at him; not seeing, but staring still.  In every mirror, the flames of Ba'alzamon's face raged behind him, enveloping, consuming, MERGING.  He wanted to scream, but his throat was frozen.  There was only one face in those endless mirrors.  His own face.  Ba'alzamon's face.  One face.&quot;--Page 296 in hard cover.<br /><br />We all know that Ba'alzamon was Ishamael, and that Ishamael is now Moridin.  When Moridin is playing Sha'rah, the game supposedly older than the Age of Legends, he claims that he cannot lose because he's playing both sides of the board, with Rand al'Thor playing the role of the Fisher.<br /><br />Combine these clues to the fact that Lews Therin mutters over some third entity (the other one) and we have our number one suspect for the dark man that merges with Rand.<br /><br />Sorry, I guess I didn't keep it short after all.<br /><br />TrailzTheAsha'man <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />Keeper of...Something cool <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /></p><p><b>Jeordam says:</b> Hmmm. delving threw the pages of the first books I see. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />  Well oddly enough, I think that much of what will actually happen towards the end of the series can be found in the first few books.<br /><br />Ok...as per your theory.  It is possible that Rand's dream could have a literary foreshadowing to it, but at the same time, it might just be a bad dream.  In addition to this, we have the knowledge that Ishamael could be playing &quot;both sides of the board&quot;.  This is again a possibility, but we have to take into account his delusions of grandeur as well as his insanity.  Guess we'll see<br /><br /><br /><br /> </p>


created: 2002-02-21 01:43:16
subject: The Grand Theory
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<p>Just bear with me here. All this is relevant. Mmmmkay. That face Rand sees and those colors Mat sees in their heads are the future. Think about it. They both have the past and present in their heads.<br /><br />   RAND<br />   Past- LTT<br />   Present- Himself<br />   Future- that viewing Min is always going on about.<br /><br />   MAT<br />   Past- the memories of the generals<br />   Present- himself<br />   Future- The Last Battle (moreover a specific part. That part is the reason it comes to mind when he thinks of Rand.)<br /><br /><br />  LAST BATTLE<br /><br />  First here is a thought. There are two sources of Light in Rand land (or HALF of one source.). Rand is one and the Creator is the other. This is important.<br /><br />  In the Last Battle, Shai'tan will come out to play with Rand, but the DO will need a body to do so. So he will kill Moridin and take over his dead body. This was the point of the Nae'blis, to be a vessel for the DO. At this point the Creator will appear, but he will not have a body to assume, as his Champion, Rand is still alive. <br /><br />  Now Mat's Future(as stated above), what the Aelfinn said, and my thought about the Light come into play. Mat has to give up half the light of the world to save the world, right. This is the moment he keeps seeing that is blurry. He will put 2 and 2 together (or 1 and 1 if u cant count that high). He will kill, yes kill, Rand (who is half the light of the world!) so the Creator can have a body. <br /><br />  Now Min saw one man dying and one living. Rand assumed LTT would die. But this is wrong. LTT has way more knowledge of the OP. The Creator will cast Rand's soul out and use LTT's knowledge. Now somehow, Perrin will die and go to the Wolfdream and the DO and the Creator will move their fight to TAR. <br /><br />  Now Egwene saw Perrin leading a huge pack of wolves. These wolves are all wolves that have ever died. Perrin will leave them and they will take down the DO. The Creator will kill him and all will be good again, unless the Pattern throws another DO out. <br /><br />  Now the Creator will give Rand back his body, minus LTT. Now is when Rand loses his hand. This may be a little difficult to understand. Picture Rand and LTT each being one of Rand's arms.  Each is a Dragon (represented by the Dragons) and each is a Blade Master (represented by the herons). But now LTT is gone, the second set of markings becomes useless. So when LTT leaves, he takes his arm with him. The Creator will make Rand give up all his power and glory (i.e. he becomes the persona of the viewing of his Future [see top]).<br /></p><p><b>Jeordam says:</b> Hmmm...I must say that it is an interesting theory.  And well, in a grand sort of way, that it is possible.  Your theory would explain away some of the viewings and dreams that we have seen threw out the series, and it would also take care of that &quot;Give up half the light of the world to save the world&quot; statement made to Mat.<br /><br />The one really big thing that sticks out in my mind is that the Creator doesn't take a hand in human events.  He sits back.  And then well...if the Dark One was &quot;killed&quot; well that would totally throw the entire balance out of wack.  Not to mention the fact that we have the statment from the Fade about Rand, Mat, and Perrin about cutting one leg off the tripod and it fails.  I guess we'll see.<br /><br /><br /> </p>


created: 2002-02-22 01:00:00
subject: Perrin's Brambles
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<p>I have been visiting this site often lately and came across Egwene's  dream about Perrin and a Tinker hacking through brambles toward a cliff they didn't see. I was rereading Lord of Chaos and came to one of the coolest scenes in the series, Dumai's Wells, when something caught my eye and sparked my memory. <br /><br />&quot;Perrin worked his axe methodically; he was hewing wood, not flesh; He was slashing a path through brambles.&quot; <br /><br />At the time of this quote Perrin was side by side with Aram and Loial trying desperately to reach Rand. Brambles are again mentioned, &quot;There were only the men before him, the brambles, to be cleared by his axe and Loial's, and Aram's sword.&quot; <br /><br />I don't know what the cliff they couldn&#8217;t see before them, but I think it is worth considering as a likely spot for Egwene's dream to have come true. It may be coincidence that Jordan linked Perrin's slashing through the Shaido to hacking through brambles, twice on the same page no less, side by side with Aram, but I have found that coincidences are a rarity in The Wheel of Time.</p><p><b>Jeordam says:</b> Actually this could totally work.  I agree...every time that there is a coincidence, it just seems too good of a set-up.  The only thing that comes to mind though, is the part about the cliff.  What would the cliff represent?<br /><br />Definitely danger if one goes off the edge? (Perhaps not getting to Rand at all...and he truly looses it.) Or perhaps a definite change?  Once past the cliff (event), things are never the same?  <br /><br /><br /><br /> </p>


created: 2002-02-22 22:01:20
subject: What is the Dark One?
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<p>We hear a lot of times the mantra &quot;The Dark One has been sealed since the Creation....blah, blah, blah.&quot; I'd like to argue that point. I think the DO is actually....just another creature albeit much, MUCH more powerful. <br /><br />Don't you think it odd that in all the traveling and portal stones and waygates that Randland folk have yet to encounter a creature that is significantly more powerful than them? In fact, on account of their channeling they are more powerful than anything else. <br /><br />I think the DO is another creature that, like Mashadar or Mordeth, has a much, much longer life and up until Lanfear and Beidomon bored the hole in his world lived his life separated from this world.<br /><br />Here are my reasons:<br />1. The DO is way too ignorant. Lets face it, he's powerful but if he really had to fight the Dragon millions of time over the turning of the Wheel do you really think that by now he would be smart enough to:<br /><br />     a. Not let the Dragon seal the bore again. Does the bore get sealed every time? Is there always a &quot;hundred companions&quot;? If so we have a very stupid DO<br /><br />     b. Not try to convert the Dragon Reborn before he gets powerful. If it didn't work the last million times why would it work this time?<br /><br />     c. Give up. If it is always the same DO since the creation and the wheel has turned, say only 1000 times, wouldn't the Dark One by now be tired of the whole thing. Talk about &quot;Groundhog&#8217;s Day&quot; to the extreme.<br /><br />     d. OK, maybe not give up but you would think with all this experience he would be ready and the moment the bore was made he would grab up some Forsaken, and teach them immediately how to make Trollocs, Worms and worse, and send every Light friend in the world to a quick death before anyone knew what was happening. But he doesn't. No, he came out, there were some problems, a time of armistice, then a big war. Blah!<br /><br />2. The DO is way too weak. C'mon, here we are talking about the foil character to the Creator. And he's gonna get whooped by a bunch of men and their tools. That's like Satan getting shot by a .22 and dying. OK, these tools are a little bigger than a .22 but even an RPG or a CBM vs. Satan wouldn't see Satan dead. On top of that the DO couldn't escape even with the bore open. He could only touch the world. <br /><br />3. The DO is way too unsure. He keeps changing plans midstream. Example of that would be the new order to kill Rand rather than spread Chaos. Why in the world did he not want Rand dead before? After all Rand, or the hero of the Wheel that is Rand, has imprisoned him thousands and millions of times before. You would think the DO would be a little angry with him by now. Yet the order is not to kill Rand to the point that he even ordered Semhirage to send Trollocs to protect Rand in Tear. Strange behavior.<br /><br />4. The DO wants Padan Fain dead. You may or may not understand this point but it is a theory in and of itself. This theory is already getting long enough so I'll forgo explaining and let you think about it.<br /><br />5. The DO lashed out immediately when the Bore was made. Now here is a strategy question for you... When you want to ambush someone do you attack as soon as the first person gets in the trap or do you wait until all of them are in your trap? The DO had to know a hole would eventually be re-drilled in his prison. He was laying an ambush. But he lashed out before they could drill a hole big enough to escape. Seems like he was as surprised as the drillers were but a lot more powerful.<br /><br />My theory about the DO is that he is a very powerful creature in another world. When Lanfear and Beidomon first sensed the power of this creature they probably thought it was another source of power. But they could only sense it through the walls of the prison/world that the DO lived in. So they bored the hole to access this power, never realizing exactly what they were doing.<br /><br />The DO lashes out and finds a new world to control. HE learns the current culture and starts to recruit a new following. Battle, blah, death, blah, sealed.<br /><br />This said I would think it would make sense then that at the Last Battle Rand will kill the DO. I can hear you screaming &quot;but what of the Wheel?&quot; I have two theories that are feasible responses. <br /><br />The first would be to consider the alternative. If the DO takes over the Wheel in Randland does that mean the Wheel is gone in all the variations? Or just that one? Could everyone just use the Portal Stones and go to another world where the DO isn't freed yet? Or is there one that is the DO for every world? In theory every variation world has to have another DO. Otherwise the pattern would center on the DO instead of the Creator. So if the DO from the world Lanfear bored into is killed chances are another Aes Sedai thousands of years later will bore into another DO that is still in his little prison or even a DO that has been freed and taken take over a couple of worlds. <br /><br />Sound weird, think of it this way. What would a world be like if the DO had free reign for a while then was killed off? Would it go back to normal? Would grass and plants and animals grow back? Yeah, I think so. Would the land be scared? Yep. Would the trees and the land itself be &quot;grateful for weapons to be made&quot; for a while afterwards? Yep. Would there be no real signs of life. Yep. Would the pattern ever rally come back? I don't know. Can you see where I am going?<br /><br />The world Rand, Hurin, and Loial went to was void of life. There were no people and the land itself was void. Now I don't see Trollocs ravaging the land unless there were people there but everything was skewed and destroyed. I theorize that world could be one where the DO ruled for a while until in some other variant of the Wheel the Dragon killed him. The pattern there has been destroyed. Obviously. <br /><br />My second theory (and the one I like best) on how the DO could be killed and the patter still move on would be if another DO entered the scene. It would have to be someone powerful, evil and have a good reason to hate humanity. Anyone come to mind readily. I'll let you figure that one out on your own. One point is that his power would have to be independent of the DO. If the DO dies he would still have to be very powerful. He would also have to be somewhat immortal and be sealed into a prison before the end of the series.<br /><br />Summation: The DO is not a foil to the Creator. He is a foil to Rand/Dragon. They will battle, he will die, and the Wheel will create or find another DO for the next turning.<br /><br />Flame away but be prepared to defend yourself.<br /><br />Ciel, the Baerlon Maid<br />Doesn&#8217;t need any titles or smileys<br /></p><p><b>Jeordam says:</b> Ok...I must say.  Very well written.  And it's a great theory, but I disagree with you at this one point.  In The Dragon Reborn, Egwene and Verin are talking about The Dream World, about the pattern in general, and they even touch on the subject of The Dark One.  Egwene asks specifically if there are more than a single Dark One and Verin says that there are not.  <br /><br />They also speak of the prison itself, and that if the Dark One is imprisoned in one &quot;reality&quot; than he is imprisoned in them all, and if he's free in one of them, then he is free in them all.  Verin is saying these things and by the Three Oaths, we know that she believes them for true.  But in this regard, I think that her belief is in fact true, because it&#8217;s consistent with what we know of the Pattern and it&#8217;s logistics.<br /><br /> I do agree with many of your points about the nature of the Dark One, and I agree with part of your summation...I don't think the Dark One is the anti-thesis of the Creator (which is the popular belief, because I don't believe that the Dark and Light are equal in any way), but instead he is suborn to the Creator, but he continues to fight against the Dragon (in each of his incarnations).  All in all though, I must admit...very well done.<br /><br /><br /><br /> </p>


created: 2002-02-25 16:05:18
subject: Vandene and Adeleas - more evidence for the extraordinary
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<p>This isn't a full-blown theory, but I just caught this while re-reading Lord of Chaos, and I thought I'd share.<br /><br />As Elayne, Nyn, Mat, Vandene, Adeleas, etc. are all preparing to leave Salidar for Ebou Dar, Vandeleas tells Mat that they're not strong enough &quot;for some of the new things&quot; - referring to the making of gateways.  This makes sense, as it is has been discussed how few sisters in Salidar had enough strength to make one, and some of these were only big enough to put an arm through.<br /><br />Fast forward to Ebou Dar - with Elayne &amp; Nyn in the Rahad district.  A fair amount of page space is devoted to how rough the sector was, and how not resorting to channeling had been difficult.  And then one of them then remembers how they'd witnessed Vandeleas being accosted while searching for the bowl.  One of them ended the incident lifting the assailant into the air and throwing him through a second story window.<br /><br />Now earlier in the book, from Siuan's point of view, we've learned that lifting a person was one of the more difficult things to do, and how at her full strength she could lift a man a fair ways into the air.  And I find it difficult to believe that Siuan (at full strength), was not strong enough to make a gateway, since Alviarin seems to be.<br /><br />In case you haven't figured out where I'm going with this, let me summarize.  Siuan (pre-stilling) was strong enough to lift a man, and make a gateway (a guess, but not one too many people will disagree with, I think).  Vandeleas is strong enough to lift a man, but not strong enough to make a gateway.  Something doesn't add up.<br /><br />It is possible Vandeleas linked to get the strength for the lifting trick, but the wording of the passage didn't suggest that to me (something about how the brown sister lifted the man - one of them is green).<br /><br />Anyway, it's an interesting discrepancy.  Add in Adeleas's murder, the seemingly random Draghkar attack, and other suspicions of that one of the sisters is Black Ajah, and it's a strong suggestion that there's more to Vandene &amp; Adeleas than we know of.<br /><br /><br /> </p>


created: 2002-02-26 13:39:42
subject: The many links between Julani and Sammael
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<p>In my recent re-read of LoC, I noticed a string of peculiar events that happened around Jalani, one of Rand&#8217;s maiden escorts.  My goal, here, is to positively link Jalani with Sammael, and prove who sent the gholam to kill Herid Fel.  This theory is almost like an FAQ and it is strongly based much more on quoted material than on simple conjecture.  It is also quite long, but all of the points are relevant to the subject, so please have patience.<br /><br />  We get our first clue in LoC in &#8220;A Taste of Solitude.&#8221;   Rand is walking into his new school in Cairhien and talking to Idrien.  Lews Therin is quite active in Rand&#8217;s mind at the moment.  Idrien welcomes Rand, and Rand, inappropriately replies, &#8220;How many spies do you have in the Sun Palace?&#8221;  Idrien was quite startled.  <br /><br /> I was confused by this comment on by first read of LoC, but I finally think I have begun to understand its true meaning.  When Rand asks Idrien how many spies are in the Sun Palace, it is one of Lews Therin&#8217;s first occurrences of speaking words through Rand.  As we know, Lews Therin often has a very deep, psychic-like, awareness of what is happening.  I believe that Lews Therin noticed that there were 2 spies in the school at the moment.  And these 2 spies were&#8230;.<br /><br /> Jalani and Dedric.  We get the first hints on pg. 411 when Idrien shows Rand the printing press.  &#8220;Dedric showed considerable interest in that, until Jalani apparently decided he should be watching for somebody trying to attack the Car&#8217;a&#8217;carn: she trod hard on his foot, and he limped after Rand.&#8221;  As we know, it is rare for an Aiel to get sidetracked from the duty.  Did Dedric also have another duty, perhaps spying, to perform?<br /><br />  On pg. 413 we get our 2nd clue from Rand&#8217;s POV: &#8220;A number of small things suddenly came together.  Jalani had not given his sword one disapproving look, something she made a point of&#8230;  Neither she nor Dedric had so much as glanced at his horse in the stable, or made a disparaging remark about how his own legs should be good enough for him, another thing she did regularly.&#8221;  What is going on here?<br /><br /> At first, I thought that Dedric and Jalani were wetlander-imposter-spies, posing as Aiel, but RJ quickly disassembled that idea.  &#8220;As if for confirmation, as Rand turned to the door (the door to Fel&#8217;s study), Jalani eyed Dedric up and down.  Briefly, but with decidedly open interest and a smile.  Dedric ignored her so intently he might as well have stared.  That was an Aiel way, pretending not to understand until she made herself clearer.  She would have done the same had he begun the looking.&#8221;  So we see that Dedric and Jalani are, in fact, Aiel, but their minds seem very preoccupied with something other than watching Rand.  What could this be?<br /><br /> A crucial point to mention is that Dedric and Jalani are the ones who are guarding the door as Rand enters Fel&#8217;s study to talk with Fel.  During this time with chat with Fel, Rand discusses the seals and the possibility of breaking them.  Note that Dedric and Jalani are the only other people around (that RJ mentions) and that Fel is killed at the end of LoC.  I believe that Dedric and Jalani&#8217;s minds were preoccupied that day- with spying on Rand.  This is why they were behaving abnormally.  I believe Dedric and Jalani are indirectly responsible for Fel&#8217;s death.  But who is directly responsible?  I will synthesis this information at the end of my theory, but first I want to finish presenting the facts.<br /><br /> Dedric&#8217;s story ends here, but Jalani&#8217;s does not.  In fact, there are many more clues that need to be considered.  To find these clues is as simple as following Jalani&#8217;s plotline.  In &#8220;To Shadar Logoth&#8221; we see Jalani and her nefarious behavior once again.  What suspicious event occurred in this visit to Shadar Logoth?  Liah disappeared.  Who was responsible?  You bet!  Jalani.  Jalani was Liah&#8217;s partner in Shadar Logoth.  &#8220;She was right behind me,&#8221; Jalani said.  She also said, &#8220;I do not think she would have gone this far&#8230; not unless she was trying to get away from us.&#8221;  Jalani is clearly trying to justify the disappearance of Liah.  Does Jalani have a need to justify Liah&#8217;s disappearance?  You be the judge.<br /><br /> Jalani&#8217;s suspicious behavior does not end in Shadar Logoth.  In &#8220;Letters&#8221; we see Jalani once again.  On pg. 566, Nandera says, &#8220;Jalani and I will take our places outside.&#8221;  Immediately after this, Rand noticed something, &#8220;The door had opened.  He was smelling filth, not just seeing it.&#8221;  Here, Rand gets his first practical experience of the powers of being a Warder- his bond gives him the power to sense shadow-spawn- he smells a gray man.  It is particularly interesting to note that the door opened immediately after Jalani and Nandera said they were leaving.  Did Jalani and Nandera have something to do with the gray man?  Based on my previous sketch of Jalani, my answer is yes- I think Jalani was the one who told the gray man that the moment was perfect for attacking Rand.  Since this theory is getting too long already, I am not going to dissemble the other events that happened in this chapter- namely Taim appearing and killing the gray man.  I will let you discuss Taim&#8217;s involvement on the blackboard.  Taim, however, did suggest that the gray man &#8220;had to come from Sammael.&#8221;<br /><br />Sammael. Everything seems to lead to him. Based on all the information I presented, I strongly believe that Jalani, Dedric, and Nandera are darkfriends.  Jalani, however, is the most interesting of the lot because of her three suspicious events.  Basically, I believe that Jalani is an agent of Sammael.  All the clues point this way. <br /><br />Sammael is also the most likely candidate, since he is the Forsaken with the most active interest in utilizing the Aiel. We haven&#8217;t really seen any of the other forsaken involved with the Aiel except for Asmodean and Lanfear.  Sammael also had principle roles in the Shaido battle at Cairhien, and in manipulating Sevanna. <br /><br /><br />Let&#8217;s briefly review the clues and draw some conclusions:<br /><br />1. Dedric and Jalani behave strangely at Idrien&#8217;s school.  Lews Therin suspects spies, and Dedric and Jalani the only people around when Rand discusses a paramount subject with Fel- the D.O.&#8217;s seals, and the possibility of breaking them.  Later in the book, Fel is killed by a gholam.  We know for a fact, from ACoS, that Sammael commanded a gholam.  Sammael is highly involved with the Aiel.  Everything here points in Sammael&#8217;s direction.  I believe Sammael ordered Fel&#8217;s death.  <br /><br />There is one unresolved point here, however.  On page 501, Nesune Bibara Sedai was mentioned: an Aiel said, &#8220;he heard her mutter something about seals.&#8221;  Why is Nesune suddenly so interested in seals, especially so shortly after Rand&#8217;s discussion with Fel?  Could Nesune also be linked with Sammael?  This is blackboard discussion fodder for all of you.<br /><br />2.  Liah, Jalani&#8217;s partner, disappeared in Shadar  Logoth.  I do not know why Jalani wanted Liah to disappear- I think Liah must have discovered something evil about Jalani and Jalani then tried to kill her.  However, we see Liah re-appear in ACoS during Rand&#8217;s final showdown with Sammael.  This is a very sketchy re-appearance by Liah and I am not going to go into it very deeply.  Basically, I think Jalani told Sammael about Liah, and Sammael later used an inverted-image of Liah to try to distract Rand.  It didn&#8217;t work.               <br /><br />3.  Jalani and Nandera are seen leaving Rand&#8217;s chambers at precisely the same moment that the gray man enters.  Taim suggests Sammael sent the gray man.  However, another Forsaken, particularly Demandred, may have been involved in sending the gray man.  This is the weakest point of my argument, but it needed to be raised.<br /><br />In this theory, I just wanted to link together various quotes in LoC and draw some conclusions- the most important of which is that Sammael ordered Fel&#8217;s death.  I hope to see a lot of replies to this theory- so get your books out- and rip apart my theory, if you can.</p><p><b>Burr says:</b> Well, the &quot;abnormal&quot; interaction between Dedric and Jalani can be easily explained as is implied in Rand's POV.  Normally, I would say that Jalani is attracted to Dedric and is acting like any lovestruck Aiel might.  However, that doesn't explain Jalani's connection to Liah's disappearance.  Maybe Jalani isn't really attracted to Dedric but is merely keeping his attention away from guarding.  Or I suppose her apparent affection is honest even if she is a Darkfriend.  Darkfriends are humans too, afterall.<br /><br /><br /> </p>


created: 2002-02-28 10:35:06
subject: Mask of Mirrors? ...Puh!
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<p>Lord of Chaos, Pg.183, 1st paragraph, reads as follows: <br /><br />   &quot;A scuff of boots announced an arrival, but not men to replace the carpet and remove Rashan.  Ebram was a tall, well-made young Domani in tight red breeches and a flowing white shirt; he could have fit into her collection of pets if he had been more than a merchant's son.  His eyes were intent on her as he knelt, dark and shining.  'The lord Ituralde had come, Great Mistress.' <br /><br />&#8220;Graendal set the goblet atop a table that at first glance seemed to be inlaid with ivory dancers. 'Then he shall speak with the Lady Basene.'<br /><br />&#8220;Ebram rose smoothly and offered an arm for the frail Domani woman he now saw.  He knew who lay behind the weaving of Illusion, but even so the reverence on his face faded slightly; she knew it was Graendal, not Basene, whom he worshiped.&quot;<br /><br />    What this passage evidently tells us is that there is some form of Illusion that is NOT affected by touch. While this may seem insignificant I think that it can tell us quite a bit. For one, if Mazrim Taim is Demandred than it would not be hard for him to disguise himself as such. The Forsaken still know a lot of things that the Aes Sedai and Rand don't. Well, the main reason for this &quot;theory&quot; was merely to prove that the Mask of Mirrors is not the only way to disguise oneself, and that it is not affected by touch. <br /><br />Feel free to rip this apart, (though I think this hard evidence to dispute), or tell me that we've been over this before. I researched of course before I posted but I easily could have missed something. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /></p><p><b>Burr says:</b> This has been argued elsewhere, I know, but I don't remember seeing it argued expressly on the Theory Post.  Because the touch test is so widely used when debating Forsaken identities, this theory may be something for us all to keep in mind.<br /><br /><br /> </p>


created: 2002-02-28 10:58:17
subject: No dragons
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<p>Many are claiming that Dragons are either a) mythological b) from Shara c) from the AoL.  However, I don't necessarily think that dragons exist in ANY of those places.  In fact, I think that the only time/place that dragons DID exist was before the AoL, kind of like portal stones.<br /><br />My Proof:<br /><br />a) Dragons are not mythology in Randland because then even the little folk from Emond's Field would have HEARD of them.  They'd heard of Myrddraal, Trollocs, the Age of Legends, the Forsaken-- and they all thought it was mythology.  But then they would have heard of Dragons as well.<br /><br />b) Going from my previous point, if Dragons had been roaming around Shara, someone (Jain Farstrider?) would have started some kind of rumors... enough at least for Dragons to be thought of as mythological serpents roaming around.  But in fact, no one does.<br /><br />c) I don't think dragons are from the AoL because they have NEVER been mentioned in the Guide or any other story.  I think that in AoL they may have been &quot;known&quot; or myth at least from the age before.  The portal stones are from a previous age than AoL, but people in AoL used them.  Perhaps they had an idea of what a Dragon supposedly looked like and named LTT after it.<br /><br />In LoC, there is a prophecy at the end in which this small phrase is located: &quot;Beyond the horizon, hidden fires swell, and serpents nestle in the bosom.&quot;  Some people have noted that this phrase points to dragons in Shara because &quot;beyond the horizon.&quot; I think it simply means in the coming future the chaos increases.  &#8220;Serpents in the bosom&#8221; I believe refers to LTT inside of Rand.<br /><br />Comments?</p><p><b>Burr says:</b> On your first point: legend fades to myth, but myth also fades.  It could be that the legend faded during the Breaking and the myth faded sometime later.  Furthermore, what is myth or not myth to Emond's Fielders may or may not be myth someplace else in Randland.  I don't know much about East Asian mythologies, but that doesn't mean they don't have their own mythologies, nor does it mean that they weren't based on some truth.<br /><br />For Jain Farstrider to give truthful testimony on the existance or nonexistance of dragons in Shara, he would first have to have visited Shara.  We don't know that he has truly done that.<br /><br />You make a good point about the Guide not mentioning dragons.  However, the Guide was written as if it were compiled after the time of the Breaking.  If little information about dragons survived the Breaking, then there isn't much chance it would be mentioned in the Guide.<br /><br /><br /> </p>


created: 2002-03-01 01:30:47
subject: Diamonds and Stars (Cadsuane and the Black Ajah)
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<p>Shortly after Cadsuane is introduced into the series there is this interesting scene (Diamonds and Stars, CoS Ch.19) featuring Cadsuane, Annoura and Merana (whose POV the reader experiences): Merana notices Annoura rubbing her thumbs nervously while explaining how she came to be Berelain's advisor, which she thinks is peculiar for such a skilled negotiator (Annoura is a Gray).<br /><br />Now Cadsuane tells about her retirement and how she decided to return when she heard about Logain. Suddenly, though, she asks whether any of the Sisters present had been involved in &quot;That vileness right after the Aiel War&quot;. Merana is confused, not quite knowing what to make of that question, while Annoura's eyes &quot;Speak of the block and the headsman&#8217;s axe&quot;. Annoura continues to stammer something about trying to strengthen the Great Coalition...<br /><br />As much as I would give for an account of those events from Annoura's point of view, this is what I make of it: When Annoura &quot;rubs her thumbs&quot; she is signaling membership to the Black Ajah (The signal, holding both thumbs between the first two fingers, is described in LoC Ch.30, when Halima introduces herself).  After a while Cadsuane takes her up to it: when she asks about &quot;That vileness right after the Aiel War&quot;, she does, of course, refer to the events told in New Spring (when the Black Ajah ran wild, killing men who were exceptionally lucky). Annoura, knowing about this, is quite shocked- no failure to negotiate a multinational alliance (even when mentioned by Cadsuane), could shock her that much.<br /><br />...I conclude that Annoura is definitely a Black Sister, who suspected to find someone likeminded in Cadsuane.  Cadsuane appears to know a great deal about the actions of the Black, even their way of recognizing each other.<br /><br />And yet I do not believe that Cadsuane is a Darkfriend- what we experience through her eyes does not look like the thoughts, ideas and the agenda of a Darkfriend. Maybe Cadsuane is a Black Sister, maybe she got that knowledge interrogating Darkfriends... or maybe she is playing some real high-stakes (what could be a higher stake than your very soul) double-cross version of Daes Dae'mar.<br /></p><p><b>Jeordam says:</b> Ok, I must say that you may be right on the mark with this one...but I see one leap that may be either you landing on solid ground or over a cliff.  &quot;That vileness after the Aiel war&quot; might not necessarily be the Black Ajah and it's hunting down of those &quot;lucky ones&quot; (as depicted in New Spring), but it could be in reference to the Red Ajah (and possibly other Ajah members as well) gentling men who could channel without taking them to the Tower (an example of this would be Thom's nephew Owen) or something else entirely that we have no clue about.<br /><br />But I must say that I have never liked Cadsuane, and my gut instinct was that she was definitely Black Ajah from the first.  Even though her recent actions have redeemed her a bit, I still wonder what a Black Aes Sedai might or might not do or allow if it suited her eventual goals.<br /><br /><br /><br /> </p>


created: 2002-03-02 12:20:14
subject: The Everlasting Fade
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<p>Shaidar Haran introduces himself in LoC (Prologue - The First Message), in a scene with Osan'gar (aka Aginor, AoL geneticist extraordinaire). Aginor created the Myrddraal, albeit accidentally, and it's a safe bet that he knows more about them than anybody else.<br /><br />So when Osan'gar thinks, &quot;the Myrddraal's bloodless lips twitched in a smile, except that was impossible, here or anywhere. Even Trollocs had a sense of humor, if a vile and violent one, but not Myrddraal,&quot; we must assume he knows what he's talking about.<br /><br />However, later in the same scene &quot;those thin lips twitched again.&quot;<br /><br />And finally, &quot;the Halfman did smile then. It was like seeing death smile.&quot;<br /><br />Let's not forget Shaidar Haran's very next appearance in LoC (Chapter 6 - Threads Woven Of Shadow), which has him checking up on Semirhage, and whereupon his &quot;bloodless lips twisted in a smile.&quot;<br /><br />All of which leaves us with the knowledge that Shaidar Haran is truly no ordinary Myrddraal, which Jordan emphasises with the fact that this Fade really likes to turn his frown upside down. A fact that becomes even more interesting when we notice . . .<br /><br />-------<br /><br />In tEotW (Chapter 17 - Watchers and Hunters), Rand is in Baerlon, in the inn known as the Stag and Lion, when he is confronted by a Fade whose &quot;thin, blood-less lips curved in a cruel smile.&quot;<br /><br />In tGH (Prologue - In The Shadow), the man called Bors is not impressed with the host of the Darkfriend Social, a Myrddraal whose &quot;thin, bloodless lips quirked in what might almost have been a smile.&quot;<br /><br />Again in tGH (Chapter 6 - Dark Prophecy), Fal Dara is attacked by unwelcome visitors, one of whom is a Fade who upon seeing Rand &quot;started toward him, smiling a bloodless smile, not hurrying.&quot; Indeed, things looked bleak for our intrepid young hero until &quot;abruptly the Myrddraal stopped, its smile gone.&quot; Luckily for Rand, the Fade is intercepted by Ingtar, allowing Rand to flee without seeing the outcome of the fight. Ah, verily, Ingtar is a brave and noble warrior!<br /><br />Of course, he's also a Darkfriend. <br /><br />And finally, in tDR (Prologue - Fortress Of The Light) the man called Bors again has trouble with a Myrddraal. During the course of their conversation &quot;the Halfman&#8217;s bloodless lips quirked in a smile,&quot; and only moments later &quot;the Myrddraal laughed, a sound that made Carridin&#8217;s bones shiver.&quot;<br /><br />And just when you thought this Fade couldn't get any happier: &quot;It smiled.&quot;<br /><br />Phew! And after all of that? My conclusion?<br /><br />Shaidar Haran has been around, and active, since Book One. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /></p><p><b>Burr says:</b> Wow!  That was quite comprehensive.  Of course, maybe this evidence just shows that normal fades can smile?  That's been the general consensus on Bors' fade.  Still, I personally think it makes a better story for Shaidar Haran to have been around for a while, rather than popping out of some Myrddraal factory one day with no build up whatsoever.<br /><br /><br /> </p>


created: 2002-03-04 14:12:52
subject: Anima
body:
<p>&#8220;Carl Jung proved beyond a doubt that each of us contains an unconscious map to salvation.&#8221;<br /><br />I encourage you to consider this essay as idea, not thesis. With the exception of the closing paragraphs of this section, the concepts used can be stated in non-Jungian terms without detriment to theoretical solidarity. We may bring Mary, Beatrice, or the Freudian mother-figure into this reading, and nothing fundamental changes. Throughout religion, psychology and mythology, the eternal feminine plays a key role in every hero&#8217;s life. Where there is a goddess, there is the dying god. <br /><br />A triumvirate goddess. Ilyena split into three bodies. Whether this is true symbolically or in narrative is irrelevant. Min, Elayne and Aviendha are to Rand what Ilyena was to Lews Therin. Now, in the incarnation of a feminine trinity, she is representative of a powerful archetypal concept. On one hand, this expresses the notion of time: past, present, and future (ie. Roman Fates; Norse Norns). On the other, it demonstrates the Hindu teaching that reality consists of three essential elements: matter, energy, and time. The trinity is therefore a symbol of all that is &#8211; ie., of the Universe, the great mother who gave us birth. Thus the tendency for trinities to be female. The goddess in any form is a strong anima symbol, and key to the dying god&#8217;s salvation. <br /><br />Anima is a term coined by Carl Gustav Jung, meaning &#8216;soul&#8217;, and referring to the feminine in man and woman. Anima is feeling and life: the wind upon the lake of Bethesda, in Jung&#8217;s words; a nymph-like, Lillith-Eve-angel with as many faces as there are men and women on the Earth. It is also &#8220;a definitive feminine image&#8221; in our unconscious, and at the same time the stratum between conscious and unconsciousness in men. <br /><br />In the case of The Wheel of Time, the importance of the anima&#8217;s appearance is obvious. This significance centres around the presence in The Wheel of Time of the &#8216;dying god&#8217; (Rand), a figure whose incarnation has appeared in every Age of our own time, under different guises. He is a figure occurring cross-culturally and independently throughout myth. The dying god is so called because he dies and is reborn; often he is connected with the health of the land. The dying god needs his lover for two, potentially three, reasons. One, is that Man requires an emotional life for health. The second, characteristic to the Fisher King tale and its siblings, we will explore now.<br /><br />When the anima is neglected neurosis can occur. Neurosis is when &#8216;one is divided against oneself&#8217;. To deny is to sicken: a fairly accurate summation of Rand&#8217;s current state. His particular illness (obviously not narratively due to repression; but in latent, psychological meaning) is tied chronologically to suppression of his emotions: ie. the anima. But to be whole, one must integrate both anima and animus (male half). To be healed, Rand must reopen himself to the anima: to pain, guilt, love. Above all things love. <br /><br />A parallel is found in Arthurian legend, where the eternal feminine is represented by the Grail. The Fisher King&#8217;s wound has caused his psyche to lose fertility and plunge into a Sheol-like wasteland. That King too was one with the land. It suffered with its king as does the moral landscape in The Wheel of Time. Only reclamation of the Grail can reverse this evil and save the King and his kingdom. The anima&#8217;s function as emotional life cannot be ignored; when it has been cut off, the only way to heal is to re-embrace it. This is the second significance of the eternal feminine, characteristic to the Fisher King&#8217;s archetypal tale.<br /><br />By becoming &#8216;as hard as he must&#8217;, Rand rebels against himself. The unconscious strikes back with an overcompensating effect when Rand is caused to compulsively lament the deaths of the women he has caused to die. The precedent in The Wheel of Time for Rand&#8217;s development is Shadar Logoth. It too became as hard as it must. The consequence was an ever-deepening spiral into destruction. Another example is found in Lucifer, whose title Rand euphemistically bears: that Prince too rebelled against unseen forces of life and suffered dire ramifications.<br /><br />We have three examples showing rebellion and consequent sickness. Only in one was the protagonist healed. Rand&#8217;s Grail is his three lovers; a trinity unified in Nynaeve. <br /><br />The third vital role of the anima is more complex and relies on a more distinctly Jungian interpretation. The dying god is that Christ-like saviour within: an energy source constantly renewing us (thus the death and rebirth motif) via its forged connection between two worlds, mortal and divine (conscious and unconscious). Perhaps it is Christ within us. The dying god is always coupled with a goddess who resurrects him after he travels to the chthonic dark of the human soul and thereby forges this connection. Adonis and Aphrodite. Tammuz and Innana. Attis and Cybele. Most typically, Osiris and Isis. Each dying god (here we find an interesting parallel to Rand&#8217;s future course) follows a characteristic cycle. He dies and faces, literally or symbolically, Hell&#8217;s keeper. By journeying into the other world and destroying his shadow he becomes holy (whole). He is resurrected by the goddess (another example is found in the journey of Theseus and Ariadne, where Theseus returns from the Labyrinth thanks to Ariadne&#8217;s thread). With his rebirth the world (the psyche) is renewed. <br /><br />Death and rebirth represent intense change. Hell&#8217;s keeper is our shadow, that part of ourself we are not aware of. First, as the anima is a stratum between the conscious and unconscious minds, we pass into the underworld via it (in myth, because of it; precedents: Tammuz; Adonis). Second, we confront the Dark One, destroying him with love (through anima). In the destruction of our shadow we find Enlightenment (dark is destroyed by light; once the dark is illuminated, it ceases to be dark, and all is light). <br /><br />There are fewer precedents in mythology to support this idea, and it is a personal contention based on the work of C. G. Jung. <br /><br />* * *<br /><br />Now having a strong inkling of the role of the dying god and the qualities of the anima, we can predict Rand&#8217;s fate.<br /><br />Like Pelias, Rand will sicken near death. He will strangle his anima within, but thankfully it is manifested without in the form of Egwene, Min, and Aviendha &#8211; and, as a single, unified figure, Nynaeve. Psycho-dynamically, these women are the Grail of our story, though the Horn shares certain connotations also. It is these women who will teach Rand tears and laughter; force his stone heart to recall and re-experience love. Nynaeve will resurrect Rand, as the goddess has resurrected the dying god in countless instances throughout myth, and Rand will confront and conquer the Dark One. <br /><br />In sum. -<br /><br />The mother goddess: life. Emotion. Anima.<br /><br />Mary, our intercessor with God: through her comes the breath of life. Ruach for an unholy nepesh.<br /><br />Beatrice: by her light we walk through the valley of the shadow of death and emerge triumphant.<br /><br />These are the eternal feminine&#8217;s key roles, and they will be played out in The Wheel of Time.<br /><br />The Wheel of Time&#8217;s inclusion of the dying god/goddess theme barely scratches the tip of the iceberg in the historical continuity of the ego/anima story. It is a story which will exist for as long as there are humans to experience it.<br /><br />For this reason, The Wheel of Time can be considered not only a literary experience, but also a religious one. <br /><br /><br />Durandir Nor<br /><br />PS. I am wary of strong masculine biases and interpretation in this post. Ironically, it is possible that the journey here described needs to be modified considerably to apply to the female perspective.<br /></p><p><b>Burr says:</b> Burr thinks to himself, <i>this stuff goes far above my head, but the people on the message board seemed to like it...</i><br /><br />*nods sagely*<br /><br /><br /> </p>


created: 2002-03-04 14:25:09
subject: Rand as Tyrant King
body:
<p>This is very rough. Some threads do not connect or connect imperfectly. Please help if you think it worth it. <br /><br /><br />&#8220;All looked upon the throne, and heard and saw<br />Nothing but Jemshid, he alone was King,<br />Absorbing every thought; and in their praise<br />And adoration of that mortal man,<br />Forgot the worship of the great Creator.&#8221;<br />- Zoroastrian Persian legend<br /><br />The above myth recounts the tale of the Persian King, Jemshid, who falls to the fatal flaw typical also of many classical Greek heroes: hubris (pride). &#8220;Only the fool, fixed in his folly, may think he can turn the wheel on which he turns&#8221; (Eliot, Murder in the Cathedral). Jemshid, urged on by devotees, neglects the worship of God and &#8220;brings desolation on his house and home&#8221;. In Robert Jordan&#8217;s The Wheel of Time we see a subtler interplay of this theme. Rand uses pride as a defence mechanism to deal with guilt and the challenges of his role as the Dragon Reborn. He is not a tyrant king &#8211; at least, not yet &#8211; but his attitude and actions reveal a factor that the tyrant kings and Rand have in common. This factor links Rand to those like Herod, Nimrod the Great, Nebuchadnezzar, and others. It is not that Rand&#8217;s kingdom suffers with him (&#8220;the land is one with the Dragon Reborn&#8221;: A Crown of Swords), as in the myth of the Fisher King, although this plays an important part: it is that, from many standpoint, significantly from a Jungian one, Rand symbolises the tenacious ego, as to the aforementioned tyrants. <br /><br />An extreme of the tenacious ego, as represented by the tyrant kings who hold brutal dictatorship over their lands, is what Rand is becoming. The repercussions for king and kingdom are invariably disastrous. <br /><br />Jung&#8217;s psychological approach to mythology is useful when discussing The Wheel of Time because fantasy literature is a conspicuous medium today for those concepts formerly expressed by myth and religion. These concepts include &#8216;archetypes&#8217;. Archetypes are universal human characteristics and experiences; understanding of them offers a guide for living. The tyrant king is one such archetype, one we are all in danger of becoming at some point in our lives. <br /><br />The late Joseph Campbell, prominent Jungian mythologist, noted that the hero who becomes king is essentially the ego who has faced the shadow &#8211; that dark part within (unknown or denied) represented by sinister forces like the Dark One and his minions. He has in so doing achieved atonement (at-one-ment) with the One Presence (his own core being). The hero-king&#8217;s role is to share this with his people; to bring harmony and peace to an often war-torn kingdom. <br /><br />However, when the hero-king is still undergoing his struggle with the shadow, as in Rand&#8217;s case, ideal governance is problematic. In such a king the continuing inner battle with evil is inevitably reflected by his kingdom. In Rand&#8217;s case, even nature is reflective of his inner state, a figurative representation of mental health or illness. The seasonal crises in The Wheel of Time are indicative of Rand&#8217;s battle with the Dark One &#8211; in Jungian analysis is the shadow within, expressed here as a force without. It is not hard to see then that Rand is suffering severe defeats.<br /><br />To overcome the shadow, one can utilise an inferior method: one reminiscent of Aridhol in the Trolloc Wars. One can journey to a place where all forces meet head on; where they do not meld together, do not integrate, but instead clash viciously within a man or woman&#8217;s soul so as to tear him or her apart. This is the place Rand has found in development by Book 9. Though our protagonist successfully resists the death force, by spending all his energies combating it he loses grip of the life force, too. He does not fall into Sheol, a shadowy caricature of his former self, or erupt in hell-fire and burning hatred like Ahab, but neither does he ever reach the Promised Land that will heal his kingdom through its work in him. <br /><br />The place Rand has found is the same that Shadow Logoth reached. Rand is doing a Shadar Logoth by becoming &#8216;as hard as he must be&#8217;. He blocks off &#8211; represses and suppresses &#8211; forces which require examining, understanding and finally integration. It is integration that turns devils into angels (and frogs into Princes). If Rand battles the Shadow with its own ideals of apathetic, brute force, the Shadow will remain; but this time, living in him. And what is worse, Rand will become a true tyrant king. <br /><br />&#8220;Through suffering . . . a brave man plumbs his own depths&#8221; (Anwar El Sadat). A fool denies them.<br /><br />From a psychological perspective &#8211; more specifically, from a Jungian one &#8211; the hero represents ego-consciousness journeying through the strange, unfamiliar fantasy-land that is the unconscious. Only through contemplation of the unconscious may we achieve fulfilment and thereby become the heroes of our own lives. But if we use brute force to make the elements of the unconscious (the land) do our bidding, there arises a veritable nemesis, a painful backlash. When the hero-king forces the world to his will by becoming &#8216;as hard as he must&#8217;, the symbolism is that of an ego tenaciously clinging to its control over the World (the psyche), even though a balance of unconscious and conscious forces is required for dynamics to operate effectively. The ego becomes a despot over the unconscious, and energy is blocked from progressive, potential life-giving capacities.<br /><br />Consider for a moment Captain Ahab, named after Ahab the &#8220;wicked king&#8221;. Captain Ahab&#8217;s ideal was to destroy a thing of evil; but the scarred ruler of the Pequod was consumed by the thing he fixated on. &#8220;And if you gaze long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you&#8221; - Nietzsche. In order to destroy a thing of evil Ahab became as hard and vengeful as the thing he fought. This is Rand&#8217;s danger. When the hero-king becomes hard like stone he loses his healing, renewing capacities and the land fails. The flow from the unconscious is choked. The land &#8211; or the ship, in the case of Ahab and the Peqoud &#8211; is brought to ruin. <br /><br />That is why Rand must be taught tears and laughter. <br /><br />***<br /><br />On an uneasy sea, clouds mark the horizon. The bow of an enormous ship sweeps through the waves. Inscribed into the charred wood are a multitude of names: Nimrod, Herod, Nebuchadnezzar. Add a few more: Jemshid. Ahab. Rand al&#8217;Thor, if he cannot continue to hold onto his humanity. The ship is Rand&#8217;s destruction, sailing ever closer; it is what he may become if he does not pull back from his current course. <br /><br />Consider Joseph Cambell&#8217;s view: &#8220;No longer referring the boons of his reign to their transcendent source, the emperor breaks the stereoptic vision which it is his role to sustain. He is no longer the mediator between the two worlds [the human and the divine; the conscious and the unconscious]&#8221; (Campbell, The Hero with a Thousand Faces, 349). As ruler, this is Rand&#8217;s peril. Of course we know he will overcome it, probably with help, especially from Sorilea and Cadsuane who will teach him tears and laughter; perhaps also from Lews Therin, who was a &#8216;pious man&#8217;, potentially virtuous even in his current insanity. But Rand will skirt close. Perhaps very close. Rand may save the world &#8211; but if only a remnant of a remnant is not destroyed, can his soul still achieve atonement? <br /><br />In myth and literature, redemption is seldom found by the tyrant figure. Look at Ahab. The flow of dynamics in the psyche is rarely reinstated once the ego has decided to suppress the unconscious. But Raistlin Majere, of Weis and Hickman&#8217;s Dragonlance Saga, redeemed himself by making the ultimate sacrifice in response to the love his brother held for him. Sydney Carton, Dickens&#8217; character of &#8216;unscrupulous doings&#8217; voluntarily stood to be executed at the hands of his fellow man. <br /><br />What price will Rand have to pay? What price, when there is already so much blood on his soul?<br /><br />I think we know. The Seals that hold the Dark One&#8217;s prison must be broken. Crippled, bleeding &#8211; dying &#8211; Rand must confront his shadow, this time with a sword of virtue. He must die to steal from the devil&#8217;s jaws the keys of death. He must emerge triumphant - for his kingdom and for his soul.<br /></p><p><b>Burr says:</b> Durandir recently submitted four well-thought and well-written theories with similar approaches/themes/whatchmacallems.  I've posted two of his theories today, and I'll post the other two tomorrow.<br /><br /><br /> </p>


created: 2002-03-05 10:37:46
subject: Rand as Dragon
body:
<p>&#8220;He shall be born to face the Shadow, born once more as he was born before and shall be born again, time without end. The Dragon shall be Reborn, and there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth at his rebirth. In sackcloth and ashes shall he clothe the people, and he shall break the world again by his coming, tearing apart all ties that bind. Like the unfettered dawn shall he blind us, and burn us, yet shall the Dragon Reborn confront the Shadow at the Last Battle, and his blood shall give us the Light. Let tears flow, O ye people of the world. Weep for your salvation.&#8221;<br />- The Great Hunt, Jordan, 1990<br /><br />Our hero is unique among men; he represents a union of opposites which are at war in his soul, the devil and the son of God struggling for expression against a backdrop of madness. Rand al&#8217;Thor&#8217;s uniqueness derives strongly from his figurative combination of the Lucifer and Messiah archetypes &#8211; the one a force of chaos and destruction, the other representative of order and creation. With the Creator having chosen Rand as champion, the better half of Rand&#8217;s nature is bound to overcome its inner adversary &#8211; its dark brother, lurking Seth-like in thin chains &#8211; although not without challenge and possibly temporary defeat, perhaps even death. But a hero is meant to show us the way to rebirth, so death will be all the more fitting. Rand&#8217;s eventual triumph for good, however, does not belie his essential encapsulation of opposites. It is prophesied that he will not only save the world, but destroy it. He is the breaker of bonds and the forger of chains. The Lord of Chaos striving for order in a world of turmoil. <br /><br />Rand&#8217;s incorporation of opposites is symbolised by the name &#8216;Dragon&#8217; given to him as Lews Therin&#8217;s incarnation. The dragon is certainly an ambivalent symbol that lends itself to either benevolent connotations &#8211; especially in the East &#8211; or malevolent ones &#8211; particularly in the West, and is thus fitting for a character who embodies both order and disorder. <br /><br />Throughout the history of myth the dragon has appeared in positive and negative manifestations. The dragon is the great serpent (in fact, the Greek word for dragon, drakon, also means serpent), reviled as a phallic symbol of venomous sexuality and temptation, and worshipped as a bringer of new-life for the same reason, shedding its skin in an act expressive of renewal. Negative manifestations include the first recorded appearance of the dragon: Tiamat of Mesopotamian myth, who symbolised Chaos, an ungovernable force of the primal waters &#8211; as did Leviathan, the biblical force destined in Hebrew tradition to be destroyed by archangel Gabriel. In Revelation Satan appears as a great red dragon. Egypt&#8217;s Apep lay in wait for the Egyptian sun-god trying to swallow his light. When Fudo-Myoo of Japanese Buddhism overcame the dragon he overcame ignorance; St. George&#8217;s slaying of the dragon symbolised good obliterating evil. <br /><br />And yet dragons have also been &#8220;celestial symbols of the life force and power of manifestation, ejaculating the primeval waters of the world-egg&#8221; (Penguin Dictionary of Symbols, 1996). Indeed, Hindu teaching identifies the dragon with First Cause; dragons play important roles in numerous creation myths. In Chinese folk religion, the Long Wang were dragon kings responsible for rain; strong, wise, and essentially benevolent. The dragon&#8217;s flight, its ability to breathe fire, and the ability to make rain are celestial activities, and therefore divine &#8211; its fiery breath associated with lightning, its ability to fly locating it in the heavens, and its rain-making ability celestial by contiguity and via connotations of fertility. <br /><br />There is a duality of gender too in the dragon symbol. Linked to the sky, the dragon is masculine. Typically the sky is considered male (eg. Zeus, archetypal sky-father), but there are also aquatic and earthy dragons, for example in Japanese mythology, which associate with the feminine (Gaia, earth-mother).<br /><br />* * *<br /><br />While the dragon&#8217;s positive or negative manifestations may seem endless, seldom in mythology has the dragon been used to represent both destructive and creative qualities simultaneously as it does for our hero Rand. In The Wheel of Time the dragon is used perhaps as is most appropriate considering its historical ambivalence. But this does not answer the question: Why is the dragon such a dualistic symbol and thus so appropriate for Rand? We can perhaps find the reason in its physical description. <br /><br />Quite possibly the dragon&#8217;s physical make-up &#8211; the scales, wings, breath of fire, etc &#8211; is significant in a psychological sense. It has arisen, with variations, independently in different cultures, suggesting it is archetypal. Chuang Tzu and others claimed that the celestial attributes (eg. wings, rain-making ability) in connection with its earthly, chthonian traits (eg. serpentine body) represent the resolution of opposites. If this is true, then it is because the dragon is a combination of these opposites, celestial and chthonian, and thereby represents the resolution of opposites, that the dragon as a symbol can be extended to represent good or evil, order or chaos, creation or destruction. Though some cultures have chosen to highlight one or the other opposite, Jordan has gone a step further in introducing the dragon as a simultaneous embodiment of both &#8211; its more natural form considering the full spectrum of the dragon&#8217;s potential symbolic meaning. <br /><br />We have in our hero a tragic and fascinating figure. Rand: wounded on his palms, his side, whipped and mocked, wearing a crown of swords. The saviour of the world; bringer of salvation. But also, Lord of the Morning, Prince of the Dawn &#8211; explicit euphemisms for Lucifer (Prince of the Morning). The Dragon: carrier of hubris, which caused Satan&#8217;s downfall &#8211; a bringer of blood and destruction to a world embroiled in chaos. <br /><br />Weep for your salvation indeed. <br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br />&#8220;Master of the lightnings, rider on the storm,<br />wearer of a crown of swords, spinner-out of fate.<br />Who thinks he turns the Wheel of Time,<br />May learn the truth too late.&#8221;<br />- A Crown of Swords, Jordan, 1996<br /><br /><br />&#8220;Only<br />The fool, fixed in his folly, may think<br />He can turn the wheel on which he turns.&#8221;<br />- Murder in the Cathedral, Eliot, 1935<br /><br /><br /><br />- Durandir Nor<br /><br />Any criticism is welcome, particularly symbolic quibbles, line editing, and . . . really, anything. Debate is as always especially welcome.</p><p><b>Burr says:</b> Do you think this is intentional on Jordan's part?  Did he really study all this dragon mythology and make a conscious choice to combine the positive and negative manifestations of dragons?  Or might it be the incidental effect of his drawing on legends about Aurthur and the Fisher King, or other broad myths?<br /><br /><br /> </p>


created: 2002-03-05 10:43:31
subject: Rand and opposites
body:
<p>The importance of opposites and particularly their reconciliation is stressed throughout The Wheel of Time, a fundamental theme inextricable from Rand's character and the supernatural war he is involved in. I therefore call on anyone with philosophical knowledge on the relationship of opposites to add to this theory and bring greater understanding to our approach towards The Wheel of Time.<br /><br />We will recall that Rand's symbol is a kind of Yin Yang representing the reconciliation of opposites: 'coniunction oppositorum'. Also, that Rand is the embodiment of warring forces: i.e., of forces in opposition. To borrow from my previous theory: Our hero is 'unique among men; he represents a union of opposites at war in his soul, as he struggles to bring them into balance. . . . Rand al&#8217;Thor&#8217;s uniqueness derives strongly from his figurative combination of the Lucifer and Messiah archetypes.' His wounds are Christ-like, but he is also Lord of the Morning, Prince of the Dawn (explicit euphemisms for the devil).<br /><br />Less obviously but equally explicit is the ambivalence in Rand's name 'Dragon'. Throughout myth the dragon has been portrayed as creator and/or destroyer (refer to 'Rand as Dragon'). Chuang Tzu and others claimed that its celestial attributes (eg. wings, rain-making ability) in connection with its earthly, chthonian traits (eg. serpentine body) make the dragon a symbol of the resolution of opposites. <br /><br />So Rand's two symbols, the Yin and Yang and the Dragon, both suggest a resolution of opposites, a theme which features strongly in Oriental philosophy and fascinated great men like Carl Jung and others. Obviously the theme is important to Jordan, perhaps key. Verin calls the DO the 'antithesis' of the Creator. <br /><br />If we apply philosophical speculation concerning opposites to the Wheel of Time perhaps we will gain insight into Jordan's world; is it dualistic or monotheistic? What is Rand's eventual goal? Is it, as motifs in The Wheel of Time suggest, balance between certain attributes as he walks his path of daggers? We can bring in saidar and saidin too; more opposites. And the greatest things are achieved when they work in unison. Is this a conscious philosophical treaty, or simply a manifestation of life's natural laws in literature? What does it mean, that evil entered the world because a channeler tried to find a unified power without regard to existing opposites?<br /><br />I hope this contribution indicates the significance of opposites in Jordan's work and inspires others to find answers to the questions I can only ask.<br /><br />- NR</p><p><b>Burr says:</b> Here's the second and final part in our &quot;The Best of Durindur&quot; series <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />: two theories dealing with the duality of the Wheel of Time, looking especially at Rand's character.<br /><br /><br /> </p>


created: 2002-03-07 10:24:53
subject: The True Identity of Halwin Norry
body:
<p>I've read through mahiro's arguments as to why Demandred is masquerading as Halwin Norry and I disagree with him on it. One of his major points is the similarity between the way they stand around and dominate rooms and refuse to sit. Well, read the opening section of WH about the meeting between Elayne and Taim, if that wasn't a man dominating a room, then I don't know what is. And the section about the M'hael and Demandred giving orders to the renegade, maybe Demandred felt the orders needed strengthening and did it as a Forsaken as well.<br /><br />The real theory I want to present here is not who Taim is, but who Norry is and why he acts the way he does around Elayne. Simply Halwin Norry is an agent for the Whitecloaks, spying on Andor and reporting via Balwer. Now, before you flame away, let me try justify this for you.<br /><br />Firstly, Norry talks about a network of clerks and secretaries that exchange information between the capitals, people who are often well connected. Who better than a clerk in a high position to act as an eye and ear for somebody. And he was one of the very few people who remained in the palace when Rand killed Rahvin. Balwer was able to get very accurate information about when happened in Caemlyn long before anyone else in his region.<br /><br />Next, being a Whitecloak spy would also account neatly for Norry's near-disrespectful behavior around Elayne. If he is one, then he probably follows their beliefs albeit in a less zealous manner. Being close to someone who could channel will cause an aggressive attitude, which he clearly displays.  It would be extremely difficult to get an active Whitecloak into the palace, or anywhere of power, he would break cover at the first sign of a Darkfriend.<br /><br />Thirdly, getting Norry converted could be very easy, after the troubles and the riots, where Whitecloaks were highly active in Caemlyn, there was time to bring someone, unhappy for some reason about the state of affairs, over to their side. A few whispered words at a time when the Tower was in a precarious state in Caemlyn, could easily sway someone.<br /><br />Lastly, it was said that the First Maid disliked Norry for an undisclosed reason. If he was a Whitecloak sympathizer, he might have tried to convert her. Possibly he badmouthed Elaida and the Tower, not something you do to a woman in this series unless she's Forsaken. Whatever he did, she probably has a personal dislike for him, but realizes that he is necessary for keeping the realm running. He would never have revealed that he was a Whitecloak spy to her if she reacted wrongly to a statement about Elaida.<br /><br />It is clear that Balwer's network of spies is highly placed in several areas, and for a devious group like the Whitecloaks, who better to use than people who are powerful, able to access information easily and well trusted. Nobody checks the servants, do they. And just about wherever Rand goes, the highest place servants always get mentioned, Shienar, Tear, Caemlyn, Cairhein and so forth. Why would RJ do that, it doesn't really add to the story unless they are being used in some other way.<br /><br />Now, feel free to FLAME ON.</p><p><b>Burr says:</b> While I can't recall Norry ever doing anything undoubtedly White Cloak-ish, I agree that it would make sense for Balwer to have had someone highly placed in Caemlyn, considering Niall's designs.  Also, in my opinion, it would make Balwer a little more realistic as a character.<br /><br />(Of course, even assuming your theory is true, Norry could still be Demandred.  Such a position as you describe would give Demandred simultaneous control over both Caemlyn <i>and</i> the Whitecloaks.)<br /><br /><br /> </p>


created: 2002-03-07 20:49:21
subject: Not all the Forsaken were Chosen
body:
<p>There are two theories on WOT that deal with this topic, which most voters and Wotmania itself seem to disagree with.  I wanted to outline this position further, and make it clear why I believe that there were more Forsaken than there were Chosen, and that the two terms should not be interchanged as we so often do.<br /><br />The Illustrated Guide states, on page 47, &quot;...a gathering of the thirteen most powerful leaders of the Forsaken Aes Sedai was taking place at the Pit of Doom...&quot;<br /><br />This quote indicates that there were indeed more than 13 Forsaken during the War of Power.  Earlier in the guide, it claims, &quot;Even Aes Sedai, drawn by promises of power, immortality, and in some cases, revenge, joined the ranks of those sympathetic to the Dark One, adding great strength to his cause.  These Aes Sedai came to be known as Dreadlords&quot; (42) (It may or may not be that the Forsaken considered themselves Dreadlords, or if at this time the Forsaken were considered superior to Dreadlords.  In the next age, of course, this is certainly the case).<br /><br />Moghedian's comment about &quot;Only 29 others have ever been granted&quot; the ability to use the True power (419, crown of swords) also seems to support the fact that there were other favored &quot;Forsaken&quot;.<br /><br />I don't think that Forsaken = Chosen.  Remember that one of Jordan's themes is how information gets twisted over time, so that history becomes legend becomes myth, but only a kernel of truth may remain in the end.  It is ,therefore, very likely that in modern times, the &quot;Forsaken&quot; is a term to describe those 13 who are sealed in Shayol Ghul, those who might one day be released from their prison to wreck havoc on the world.  The other, less powerful, (and more importantly, dead) forsaken, might not have survived the three thousand years of history to become part of myth.<br /><br />The 13 Forsaken all refer to themselves as the &quot;Chosen&quot;.  Think about what that term means.  They all went over to the shadow willingly; the word chosen implies that someone chose them in some way.  I believe that they were &quot;chosen&quot; as the leaders of the &quot;dark&quot; forsaken, the Dreadlord Aes Sedai who left the light to join the dark for reasons quoted above.  They are Forsaken, but they are also the &quot;Chosen&quot;.<br /><br />There is one thing I read that might be seen as a detractor: In the Strike on Shayol Ghul, Jorille Mondevin, the fictional author, writes that &quot;all thirteen of the Forsaken were at Shayol Ghul&quot;, implying that there were only 13 of the Forsaken.<br /><br />But this is not real evidence.  These words are those of a character in the books, in modern times (She is the advisor to Ethenielle, current queen of Kandor), and she would be under the same belief that I mentioned above: that there WERE only 13 forsaken, and therefore it would be correct to write that all the forsaken were present at Lews Therin's strike on Shayol Ghul.<br /><br />At no point do any of the Forsaken say that there were only 13 FORSAKEN, though they may have said that about the CHOSEN.  Moghedian's comment seems to imply that there were more with special powers.<br /><br /><br /></p><p><b>Jeordam says:</b> Ok...you have good quotes, but your debating the semantics of the situation...as to the titles of &quot;Forsaken&quot; and &quot;Chosen&quot;, whether they are one and the same or not.  We know that 13 individuals were sealed away in the assault on Shayol Ghul.  We know that those 13 individuals had all gone over to the Shadow of their own choice.  And specifically, these 13 individuals were the practical, main driving force in the War of Power.  Humanity gave those 13 individuals their names, which they pretty much embraced.  Those 13 individuals, as a group, were called the Forsaken.  Those who had not gone over to the Shadow...called them this nameand I'm just guessing here, but it's probably from the fact that they had forsaken the Light.<br /><br />Now on the other side of the coin, those 13 individuals, had to call themselves something.  We are not arguing that only 13 Aes Sedai went to the shadow...because undoubtedly, many did.... but instead we know that those 13 individuals were the most powerful, the most adept, the most intelligent, and the most cunning at pretty much anything.  Their abilities ranged from the art of spying, to interrogation, to military or governmental/political know-how.  They were the Dark One's Chosen leaders.... because of what they could do, what they knew, and how strong they were.  Depending on where you are looking at it from, the Forsaken and the Chosen are the same group of individuals.  Sure there were most likely others who went over to the Dark One, but they obviously couldn't hack it to make it into the &#8220;inner circle&#8221;.<br /><br /><br /><br /> </p>


created: 2002-03-08 21:02:50
subject: The Song - Has Rand found it?
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<p>I was reading through The Eye of the World again when I came across a passage that caught my attention. I think Rand inadvertently stumbled across the Tinkers' song in a dream, and he probably doesn't even realize it. This occurs in the first dream of Rand&#8217;s which is described to us by Jordan in chapter 9: &quot;The Tellings of the Wheel.&quot; The song that is being sung is mentioned twice. Here are the quotes:<br /><br />&quot;Music drifted down the streets, a hundred different songs, but all blending with the clamor of the crowds to make one, grand joyous harmony.&quot; (tEotW, p.122)<br /><br />&quot;First one, then another of the people began to sing, until every voice lifted into a glorious anthem. He could not understand the words, but a dozen interweaving harmonies shouted joy and salvation. Musicians capered through the on-flowing crowd, adding flutes and harps and drums in a dozen sizes to the hymn, and all the songs he heard before blended in without seam.&quot; (tEotW, p.123)<br /><br />Those two references show us how powerful the song might be. It could combine a hundred songs of different melodies into one single song. Jordan describes the song as shouting &quot;joy and salvation.&quot; The song made the people in the crowds happy and they started to sing the song when they saw that Rand was going to go to the Tower to save them (I'm assuming it's the White Tower that Rand is moving towards).<br /><br />Also, because the people seem to want Rand to save them and fulfill his destiny, it seems that the Song will be found before the Last Battle. The world will follow after Rand and they will sing the Song in support of him.<br /><br />It may sound a little farfetched, but I think this dream of Rand's may be a telling of his life. The past is represented by Dragonmount, which Rand explores in the first part of his dream. His present state is shown by his indecision to go towards the tower. And his future is shown through his acceptance of duty and the fulfillment of his destiny.  And included in this future, it seems, is the presence of the song.<br /><br />So, putting everything together, I think that even though Rand probably will not be the one to find the Song again, he has heard the Song and will hear it again and recognize it for what it is.<br /></p><p><b>Lauriana Sedai says:</b> I really like your idea here.  I'm definitely going to have to look closely at that dream-sequence the next time I re-read Eye of the World. I had assumed that all of the dreams in that part of the book were influenced by Ba'alzamon (Ishy, if you will), but I had always wondered why the Forsaken would give Rand such a pleasant dream.  And I'm dying to find out what's up with the Song; as often as it's mentioned in the book, I agree with your theory that it <i> will </i> be found before the last battle.  Great work! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /> </p>


created: 2002-03-08 22:20:04
subject: Why does Taim know of Asmodean's death?
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<p>Most evidence arguing for the &#8216;Taimandred&#8217; theory involves things Taim or Demandred did or said. This theory&#8217;s evidence is a little different.<br /><br />At the very end of Chapter 42 in LoC (entitled &#8216;The Black Tower&#8217; ), Taim and Rand have a heated exchange over Taim's desire to murder a few Aes Sedai in Caemlyn. Rand will simply not tolerate it. Rand warns him that if he so much as feels a man channel in Caemlyn, he will kill Taim.<br /><br />Taim replies with the following question: &quot;If Sammael or Demandred decides to taunt you with a few dead Aes Sedai on your doorstep, my veins are opened?&quot;<br /><br />Clearly Taim is trying to present Rand with alternative suspects for any saidin-related murder in Caemlyn; therefore he lists all of the living male Forsaken (aside from Osan'gar and Aran'gar who are not yet known to many besides the dark one). <br /><br />So my question is: why didn't Taim list Asmodean as a candidate?<br /><br />Taim could have learned of the deaths of Aginor and Balthamel, Rahvin, Be'lal, and Ishamael (Rand told him personally of this); and therefore had reason to exclude them. But as far as Taim is concerned (or perhaps should be), Asmodean should be alive and well. <br /><br />Rand continues to believe that Asmodean is alive and a possible threat, and was unlikely to have suggested otherwise to Taim. Rand voices his concerns about Asmodean at the beginning of LoC and in PoD when his first suspect for the Cairhien attack is Asmodean making a return.<br /><br />Many of the Forsaken are unsure of Asmodean's status. As late as LoC, Semirhage and Mesaana don't know for certain (Ch 6: &#8216;Threads Woven of Shadow&#8217; ). Sammael doesn't know either. Neither does Moghedien.<br /><br />In fact, the only three people who seem certain of Asmodean's fate are the Dark One, Graendal, and Demandred (he learned it directly from the Dark One).  None of these people seem likely to divulge information to Taim.  Graendal only tells Sammael under coercion. And Demandred doesn&#8217;t tell Mesaana and Semirhage what he knows about Asmodean.<br /><br />So how does Taim know? How does he know enough about Asmodean's fate to exclude him from a list of possible attackers?  And it's not as if the names were chosen based on likely threat. Presumably, Rand has not had any direct dealings with Demandred at all. And it does no good for Taim to leave Asmodean off of the list if the former is uncertain of the Forsaken&#8217;s fate.<br /><br />So, unless Taim was just being absentminded or careless, we are left with two possible scenarios:  (A) Taim murdered Asmodean himself, and that's how he knew. Taim was said to be in Andor at the time. However, this scenario is unlikely since Asmodean would not likely recognize the false Dragon, and he certainly seemed to know his killer. (B)Taim is Demandred, and that's how he knew. <br /><br />I vote for the second</p><p><b>Lauriana Sedai says:</b> I think it <i>is</i> odd that Taim doesn't mention Asmodean when he is suggesting other possible saidin channelers, and I hadn't noticed the wording before; he does seem to specifically limit his list to Forsaken.  If I were Taim, I would have pointed out that one of the other Ashaman could possibly channel in the city, as well.  I certainly wouldn't want an angry Rand coming after me with Balefire because someone decided to heat his bath water using the Power. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />I do think it is quite possible for Taim to have known about Asmodean's death without being either the Asmo's murderer or Demandred, though.  I think we all agree that Taim is up to no good.  Whether he's just a <i>little too eager</i> to take over the Black Tower, a Forsaken in disguise, or a new dreadlord, it seems like he's definitely gone over to the dark side.  So he might have contact with one of those few people who <i>do</i> know that Asmodean has been toasted.<br /><br /><br /><br /> </p>


created: 2002-03-10 17:05:02
subject: A Possible Explanation for Carridin's Fade
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<p>I was reading the &quot;Everlasting Fade&quot; theory and decided to reread the prologue to tDR where the Fade meets with Carridin.  Reading through the entire confrontation, some minor things struck me as odd.  I wouldn't have thought twice about them if not for the fact that in the first three or four books RJ was drops quite a few subtle clues, sometimes too subtle according to him.  With this in mind, I attempted to explore just how subtle RJ could have been.<br /><br />I am proposing that it could be possible that Ishamael or Demandred was in disguise as the Fade, and this explains the laughing thing. (If I had to pick, I would say there is more clues for Ishamael, but Demandred can't be ruled out).<br /><br />One of the first things that stand out is the fluid, articulate rhetoric that the Fade uses with Carridin.  While not proof in itself, I can't remember another Fade being so...verbose.  Some examples:<br /><br />Carridin: &#8220;What are you doing here?&#8221;<br /><br />&#8220;The Halfman's bloodless lips quirked in a smile. &#8216;Where there is shadow, there may I go.&#8217; Its voice sounded like a snake rustling through dead leaves. &#8216;I like to keep a watch on all those who serve me.&#8217;&#8221;<br /><br />1.  &quot;Where there is shadow, there may I go.&quot;  This sounds completely like rhetoric to me, and not the common Myrddraal way of talking.  If this is Ishamael, the smile could be his little inside joke on a Fade.  I took &quot;shadow&quot; to mean &quot;the shadow&quot;, similar to saying, &quot;Where the shadow holds sway, there may I go.&quot;  Everybody knows the myth that Myrddraal can disappear and reappear, and perhaps Ishamael is using this as a ruse.<br /><br />2.  &quot;I like to keep a watch on all those who serve me.&quot;  This is definitely a forsaken-type thing to say.  So much so that it seems obvious.  I cannot remember a Fade ever asserting such a personal dominance, especially to a high-ranking darkfriend.  They always say something like &quot;Serve the Great Lord,&quot; not &quot;Serve Me.&quot;  And how can a regular Fade, without the Power, possibly keep watch on &quot;all&quot; those who serve him.  Distance would destroy that plan.  We know Demandred likes proxies, so it could be him.  Even stronger is the comparison here to Ishy, who we know is a &quot;watcher&quot; throughout the series.  <br /><br />3.  The &quot;me&quot; sounds entirely too much like the self-aggrandizement that Ishamael is known for.  No other entity, besides SH, has attempted to make itself synonymous with the DO.  And, the &#8216;a man in form, no larger than most&#8217; seems thrown in there to discourage us from thinking it is SH.  <br /><br />Another example...<br /><br />Carridin: &#8220;I serve the Great Lord of the Dark, as you do.  We both serve.&#8221;<br /><br />&#8220;&#8216;If you wish to see it so.&#8217; The Myrddraal laughed, a sound that made Carridin's bones shiver.  &#8216;Still, I will know why you are here instead of on Almoth Plain.&#8217;&#8221;<br /><br />1.  It is important to note that the Fade laughs outright, which means he is not a normal Fade.  However, I think it is more important to note what makes him laugh.  It is Carridin saying &quot;We both serve.&quot; mixed with his response &quot;If you wish to see it so.&quot;  And then ha ha.  Therefore, we can assume that &quot;If you wish to see it so&quot; is his witty remark on what Carridin says.  I think it is a remark on the comparison of both of them &quot;serving.&quot;  Ishamael, we know, thinks that he is the DO, at least he acts like it.  Doesn't this sound like Ishamael?  All through the novels Ishamael finds everybody's ignorance funny.  He thinks that it is humorous that he is the only one that really knows everything.  I think he is laughing about Carridin asserting that they were equal servants.  Ishamael doesn't see himself as a servant, but as a master.  And Fade's don't laugh; they just smile cruelly.  <br /><br />2.  We know from tGH prologue that Ishamael gave the orders to Carridin, then Bors, to go to Almoth Plain.  The Fade alludes to the orders, but continues to talk in first person.  Instead of saying, &quot;Our master wants to know why...,&quot; he says, &quot;I want to know why.&quot;  He goes on to ask why Carridin is not obeying, and shows a comprehensive knowledge of the orders that Carridin received from Ishamael, and appears to be angry that the orders were not followed (this shows personal involvement with the orders).  I was under the impression that Ishamael and Carridin were the only ones that knew the orders.  Every other Fade we have seen in the story (minus SH) has not been so knowledgeable about plans and schemes.  They were just pawns.  Why is this one different?<br /><br />I won't use quotes, but further into the confrontation the Fade tells Carridin that he is not to question him, and then tells Carridin that he will be required to obey like a dog.  Doesn't this sound exactly like the confrontation between Bors and Ishamael in tGH, when Bors says he doesn't understand?  Ishamael tells him it is not for him to understand, just obey.  Again, the Fade asserts personal dominance in the situation.<br /><br />His orders are this: &quot;Find this youth and kill him as quickly as possible.&quot;  Who would want Rand dead?  Perhaps Ishamael, who just lost to him for the second time, and is realizing that Rand could be just too dangerous to let live.  Ishamael was behind the orders to send Carridin to Almoth Plain.  Perhaps this was because Ishamael knew Rand was going there (Dark Prophecy) and would proclaim himself &quot;above the watchers&quot;.  I think he wanted a security blanket (Carridin and his legions) to ensure Rand didn't escape.  And, even though it is in another book, the fight between Rand and Ishamael occurred &quot;just&quot; before we see the Fade with Carridin, as far as the timeline is concerned.  It just makes sense.<br /><br />&quot;Do not think you can dissemble.  There are others of your &quot;Children&quot; who will tell me if you turn aside in your purpose.&quot; -- Again, a very Ishamael-like thing to say, since we know that he gets info from a great many places to ensure absolute knowledge.  Also, isn't &quot;dissemble&quot; rather good diction for a Fade?<br /><br />&quot;I will take you to Shayol Ghul itself.&quot;  The distance would tend to make this a large boast for a Fade.  After all, Carridin is in Amadicia.  This point is weaker, but it&#8217;s still valid when taken with all of the others.<br /><br />&#8220;...the Myrddraal hurled him across the room.  Carridin slammed against the far wall and slid to the rug.  Facedown, he lay fighting for breath.&#8221;<br /><br />-- Have we seen another Myrddraal exhibit so much strength?  He hurled Carridin completely across a room so hard that his entire body hit the wall, then slid down to the rug.  This sounds like the Power to me<br /><br />...He turned his head, wincing at the pain in his neck.  The room was empty except for him.  Halfmen rode shadows like horses, so the legend said, and when they turned sideways, they disappeared.  <br /><br />-- I don't remember where, but at one point Mat (I think) commented on how inaccurate it was to say that Halfmen disappeared if they turned sideways.  This Myrddraal disappeared from a room that had the door closed, and he disappeared in an instant.  The Myrddraal in Baerlon ran and faded; he didn't just disappear.  The only other people we know can just disappear are channelers and Gholam.  I think that RJ put the &quot;legend&quot; part in there to show Carridin's attempt at rationalizing the situation, and can be taken ironically if in fact it was Ishamael.  As Cadsuane once stated, &quot;Sometimes it pays to be a legend.&quot;  People tend to overlook possible explanations if they think they are dealing with a legend.<br /><br />Also, right then Sharbon, Carridin's attendant, comes in the &quot;closed&quot; door.  We know for certain (don't we?) that a Fade can't just vanish and reappear; it has to obey some rules (they can't travel).  They can definitely vanish into a shadow, but it is daytime during this confrontation, and I would assume the Fortress of the Light would be just about the most difficult place for a Fade to enter unseen.  Also, how would it manage to squeeze through the closed door? <br /><br />Other small hints and clues:<br /><br />Sharbon &quot;conveniently goes to buy fruit,&quot; allowing the Fade to have an unadulterated conversation.  Too convenient, I think.  Perhaps compulsion?<br /><br />Sharbon returns at the exact right time.<br /><br />&quot;Dead black clothes and cloak, hardly seeming to stir as it moved...&quot; <br /><br />-- Is it me, or have all the other Myrddraal cloaks and attire not moved at all.  RJ used the word &quot;hardly&quot;.  If I am wrong, oh well, but please reference where else the word hardly describes the movement of a Fade's cloak and clothes.<br /><br />Anyways, it may be wrong, but there are enough points there to at least raise some eyebrows.  Have fun tearing it apart...<br /><br />Dedric, the philosopher</p><p><b>Burr says:</b> A lot of the things you say make sense...but why would the Forsaken disguise himself to Carridin?  He was playing almost completely on the value of intimidation.  Wouldn't Carridin have been more intimidated by a Forsaken than a mere Fade?<br /><br /><br /> </p>


created: 2002-03-11 19:47:22
subject: Thoughts on the title Crossroads of Twighlight
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<p>Perhaps this is a silly post, and I guess if it is, it won't be posted!  But I just had a really simple thought about what the title of the new book means.<br /><br />I think it has to do with Darkhounds.  There is some evidence that suggests a connection between Darkhounds and crossroads, such as this passage in <u>The Fires of Heaven</u>, in which Rand thinks:<br /><br />&quot;The tales he had heard said the Darkhounds ran the night in the Wild<br />Hunt, with the Dark One himself the hunter, they left no print on even the<br />softest dirt, only on stone, and they would not stop until you faced and<br />defeated them or put running water between you. <i>Crossroads were supposed<br />to be particularly dangerous places to meet them, and the time just after<br />sunset or just before sunrise</i>. He had seen enough old stories walking by<br />now to believe that any of it could be true.&quot;<br />                                                                           --Chapter 6, &quot;Gateways&quot; <br />He's thinking about CROSSROADS of TWIGHLIGHT.<br /><br />Sorry if this was obvious to everyone, but I thought it was rather clever. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /></p><p><b>Lauriana Sedai says:</b> Maybe it was obvious to some people, but I'm not above admitting that I didn't even think about it(and I just finished re-reading tFoH! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/blush.gif" border="0" />). Now that you point it out, though, I do see a connection. I don't even pretend to know what Jordan was actually thinking about when he named it, but your guess is as good as any I've seen; nice catch! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> Lauriana Sedai <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /> </p>


created: 2002-03-11 21:03:45
subject: Tarmon Gai'don: The Musical
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<p>I believe that Rand is quite confused about the nature Tarmon Gaidon. Why, you may ask? I'll tell you in this explosive theory that unearths the true nature the Last Battle:<br /><br /><br /><b>Section 1: The Dark One</b><br /><br />I now believe that the Dark One is indeed....Michael Jackson.  BUT WAIT!!!  Before you click that back button, hear me out. My proof is as follows:<br />1)<i>The DO's voice</i><br />   a. In the books, we can only SEE what The DO is saying with his ALL CAPS LOCK TALK; we cannot hear the pitch of his voice. Even though you might be tempted to assume that this voice is deep, this is just Michael Jackson talking through a microphone (the Bore).<br />   b. Despite his popularity with his Darkfriends, (whom I will call Mikefriends), he doesn't care at all about what becomes of them unless they are of use. Just like MJ!!!<br /><br />2)<i>His evil lackeys (not the Forsaken just yet...):</i><br />    When the MJ breaks free of his prison in Neverland Valley Ranch (what we in WoTland call Shayol Ghul), he will meet Rand at the Last Battle. Little do the heroes know that it will be a live stage performance complete with all the little nasties:<br />    a. Myrddraal: the perfect Jacksonspawn. With its snaky appearance and its spiffy costume, the Myrddraal is the perfect back up dancer. They can REALLY do the Moonwalk!!!<br />    b. Dreadlords, Trollocs, Draghkars, Worms, Darkhounds, etc. will play the miscellaneous zombies dancing around making guttural noises (as in Thriller).  The Dreadlords are his diehard fans from the mid 80's and channel to create the special effects.<br />    c. The Tuatha'an: Upon realizing that the Song has been Thriller all along, and has been out on video for years, the traveling folk give their souls to the MJ and play the major dancing rolls in TG (well, most of them).<br /><br />3)<i>The Forsaken and Padan Fain:</i><br />    a. At last, the reason for the constant death/rebirth of the Forsaken: after Rand killed them, the ones that were brought back were less than human...they were ZOMBIES!!!. They will be the lead dancers, all lined up together on stage for the first time in 3,000 years.  Moridin will lead, of course.<br />    b. In the place of honor, though, even ahead of the Forsaken, will be Padan Fain. Holding the Shadar Logoth Dagger in the air, point curved down like a claw, he will dance back and forth, with his neck hunched forward, both arms high in the air with one hand bent like a claw, also, singing,<br />          &quot;Soon comes the day all shall be free.<br />           Even you, and even me. <br />           Soon comes the day all shall die.<br />           Surely you, but never I.&quot;<br />with a maniacal grin on his face.<br /><br />4)<i>Conclusion</i><br />   a. I hope this was comical<br />   b. The MJ hopes to win the Last Battle by disturbing the heroes to the depths of their souls... with his come back video.<br />   c. (side note) If anyone wants to see a hilarious parody of the Thriller video, check out the extras section in &quot;Final Fantasy: The Spirits Within&quot; DVD.<br /><br />That's all for now!!!<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /></p><p><b>Lauriana Sedai says:</b> I don't know what to say, man, except your theory makes me LMAO!! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />I always knew that I sensed something evil about Michael Jackson, and it wasn't just because of all the crotch-grabbing. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /><br />Excellent deduction! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> Lauriana Sedai <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /> </p>


created: 2002-03-13 13:45:56
subject: The Horn, the Dragon and Possibilities
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<p>While skimming through the Enyclopedia here, something crossed my mind:<br /><br />Artur Hawkwing told Rand that many times they'd fought together, and would many more.<br /><br />...but not via the Horn of Valere. <br /><br />The Horn was placed with the artifacts of Lews Therin into a casket and put within the Eye of the World.  Now, it is possible that it was put in AFTER the making of the Eye, but highly unlikely.  First of all, who knew where to find it?  the 100 Aes Sedai (male and female) who created it all died.  <br /><br />And who would've had access to both the Horn AND Lews Therin's belongings?  I seriously doubt it was someone who was just strolling around with them.<br /><br />Thus, the Horn was not blown since the Breaking of the World and creation of the Eye...<br /><br />...which is centuries before the birth of Artur Hawkwing. <br /><br />Hawkwing came after LTT and before Rand.  How would he recognize either?  Plus, other heroes have come and gone; most uniquely being Birgitte and Gaidal Cain. Now we know through the Portal Stones that there are other possibilities; mirror worlds.  Perhaps Westland is the True World, and the others are mirrors, or perhaps it's the first time that all the pieces are fitting into place, or perhaps it's even an issue of the Bore...that Westland is the weak point as much as Shayol Ghul is.<br /><br />But in any event, there must be other possibilities that are real, because a character who was real has memory of them.  And not only by Hawkwing do we know this, but by Rand as well.  In TGH, he recognizes all the Heroes of the Horn, and he recognizes the same individuals by multiple/similar names.<br /><br />There are many connections where these worlds sometimes meet or touch...TAR is one, the Portal Stones, the Horn of Valere, likely Finnland, and others.  <br /><br />But the Horn of Valere cannot have been blown since the Breaking of the World or at least the Eye of the World, so how do people here know about it? <br /><br />Simple:  The Horn is one of these juncture points (with rules), and it demonstrates that even death is a mere shifting of existence.  We know this because of the Heroes of the Horn, and because the Dark One is able to retrieve those who have died.</p><p><b>StoneDogAiel says:</b> That is very interesting thought. If you are correct, it would put a whole new dimension on who this world works with respect to how the Pattern works with all the other possibilities.<br /><br /><br /> </p>


created: 2002-03-14 11:17:22
subject: The Homing Device Theory
body:
<p>Premise<br /><br />The idea is that the Shadow is able to pinpoint Rand&#8217;s exact location through the use of one or more homing devices.  Likely candidates range from the Dragon Scepter &amp; Crown of Swords to something as simple as a belt buckle.  <br /><br />Evidence<br /><br />1)  At the end of tPoD, the Asha&#8217;man that attacked Rand knew exactly where to strike, despite the fact that they were not in the same room.  <br /><br />-Prior to the attack, Rand did some very interesting things that the reader passes off as inconsequential.   <br />&#8220;For a long moment, Rand stood staring at the throne.  Or maybe at something beyond it.  Abruptly, he gave himself a shake and strode the remaining distance to pick up the Crown of Swords.  On the point of setting it on his head, though, he hesitated, then put it back. Donning the coat, he left crown and scepter where they lay.&#8221;  (tPoD, ch. 29, pg. 641)<br /><br />After this, he turned away from the throne, and began walking out with Min.  It is at this point, there was an explosion that took out the throne, the wall behind it, and the doors leading to the apartments.  All of this, wrecked and ruined, yet both the Dragon Scepter and Crown of Swords survive unscathed.  (tPoD, ch. 29,  p. 649)<br /><br />So we know that both of these artifacts have power of some kind, to have survived the blast that took out an entire wall.  While either could be the homing device, it is more likely that the Crown of Swords is the culprit.  When Rand touched the Crown of Swords to place it on his head, he set of some kind of alarm.  This alarm signaled to someone that Rand al&#8217;Thor was in possession of the crown.  This someone could have been one of a number of people: Dashiva, Gedwyn, Rochaid, Torval, or Kisman.<br />Consider the following quote from Gedwyn, after the explosion: &#8220;&#8230;telling you I felt nothing&#8230;He&#8217;s dead!&#8221; (tPoD, ch. 29,  p. 647)  Why did Gedwyn emphasize that he felt nothing?  Any of the others could easily have also felt Rand channeling.  Perhaps Gedwyn is attuned to the homing device.<br /><br />2)  After Rand&#8217;s battle with Dashiva and company, Taim is able to find Rand when he is obviously hidden pretty well with no maidens or his own asha'man nearby.   (tPoD, ch. 29, pg. 650)<br /><br />-There&#8217;s no way Taim, on his own, could have found Rand in a &#8220;small stone-walled room&#8221; that was &#8220;deep below the Sun Palace.&#8221;  (tPoD, ch. 29, pg. 649)  The only ways he could have found him without the aid of a homing device would be if he was searching the whole Palace room-by-room or focusing in on Min, if she is really transmitting to the Shadow (see Evil Min Theory).  The alternative is that Taim is attuned to the homing device.  Since we mention Ishamael as being likely to have tuned into something on Rand in the battle at Shadar Logoth (see below), we have to wonder if multiple people can tune into the same homing device.  It could also be that there are multiple homing devices on Rand&#8217;s person.<br /><br />3)  How did Taim know to go to Dumai&#8217;s Well just in time to save Rand?<br /><br />-When the Red Ajah shielded Rand, Galina took the Dragon Scepter.  It was taken with the sisters as they left to return to Tar Valon (LoC, ch. 51, pg.897).  This means that the Dragon Scepter is a homing device, unless Min was again the unwitting culprit.<br /><br />4)  How did Taim know exactly when to show up to kill that Gray Man?  (LoC, ch. 28, p. 566)<br /><br />-One explanation would be that Taim sent it himself.  Another explanation is that some Forsaken sent it (whether Taim is a Forsaken or not is irrelevant), and Taim was either clued in or simply blew it up for his own reasons.  A third explanation is that he is innocent, and just happened to walk into Rand&#8217;s bedroom at the very moment the Gray Man was poised to leap at Rand.  In the light of Taim&#8217;s other miraculously coincidental entrances, this third explanation is not likely.  So then, if Taim sent the Gray Man, or at least knew of its coming, he would need some kind of beacon telling him of Rand&#8217;s exact location.  In fact, if the whole event was timed perfectly by Taim to instill some trust from Rand, he would need some way of knowing exactly when the Gray Man stepped into Rand&#8217;s room.<br /><br />*Rand has had the Dragon Scepter since ch. 32, tFoH, when Rand gets the Seanchan spear.<br /><br />5)  How did Moridin just happen to be around when Rand walked into Shadar Logoth?  (aCoS, ch. 41, pg. 846)<br /><br />-Moridin could've felt the gateway being woven like Sammael did with Rand, but he would&#8217;ve had to already been in either Shadar Logoth or in Illian.  That means he would've had to know when Rand went to Illian, in order to see where Rand&#8217;s gateway went.  Otherwise, Moridin would have to somehow have expected Sammael and Rand going to Shadar Logoth.  So, unless Moridin orchestrated the events in Illian and Shadar Logoth, then the only logical explanation for Moridin knowing Rand&#8217;s whereabouts is the homing device theory.<br /><br />6)  The 1:30 am meeting, where Rand Travels into Mat&#8217;s room to talk.<br /><br />&#8226;  Chapter 56, tFoH:<br /><br />	Mat and Rand are both in Caemlyn at the very end of tFoH.<br /><br />&#8226;  Chapter 3, LoC:<br /><br />	Rand Travels with the Maidens from Caemlyn to Cairhien.<br /><br />&#8226;  Chapter 4, LoC:<br /><br />Still in Cairhien, Rand tells Weiramon, &quot;I've given your orders.  You hold here until Mat arrives to take command, and even then, no one moves a foot until I think I have enough numbers here.  There are more men on the way, Tairens, Cairhienin, Aiel.  I mean to smash Sammael, Weiramon.  Smash him forever, and bring Illian under the Dragon Banner.&quot;<br /><br />&#8226;  Chapter 5, LoC:<br /><br />Mat and the Band of the Red Hand are in Maerone (town) facing larger Aringill (town) across the River Erinin.  Edorion, a young Tairen Lord, says, &quot;There's a good deal of wondering...about when we'll be heading south.&quot;  Mat bets there are spies in Maerone, but that doesn't explain the following rumor.  &quot;There are rumors...There's also a rumor the Lord Dragon was in the town yesterday,&quot; Edorion said, as softly as the street noise would allow.<br /><br />Mat wonders, &quot;He would have given a pretty to find out how that rumor began.  Only off by half day, and there certainly had been no one to see.  It had been the small hours of morning when a slash of light suddenly appeared in his room at The Golden Stag...Rand, stepping out of one of those bloody holes in nothing, apparently from the palace in Caemlyn by the columns visible before the opening winked out.  It was startling, him coming in the middle of the night, without any Aiel, and popping right into Mat's room, which last still made the hair on Mat's neck stand up.&quot;<br /><br />During the meeting, Rand says, &quot;Make haste slowly, Mat...He has to see it coming.  Everything depends on it.&quot;  This is, of course, in reference to the plan that Mat is to lead an army towards Illian.<br /><br />Those are the facts.  Rand apparently sent Mat on his way towards Illian when they were both still in Caemlyn.  Then, at some point before he Travels to Cairhien, Rand Travels into Mat's room in the town of Maerone.  Whatever number of spies in Maerone, none were around to observe the meeting.  In fact, by Mat's telling of it, he didn't even expect the meeting.  So how was it that anyone in Maerone knew that Rand was in the town?  Only way is if there's a homing device on the person of Rand al'Thor.  There was no mention of Rand carrying the Dragon Scepter into that meeting, but there was no mention of him not carrying something.  Besides, there could be anything that's been turned into a homing device, like a belt buckle, or something used commonly.<br /></p><p><b>Burr says:</b> Could be, but I hope not.  I'd prefer a more original twist.<br /><br /><br /> </p>


created: 2002-03-18 09:52:50
subject: Tying together a few dreams . . . .
body:
<p>I'm not sure how valid this is, but it combines some of Egwene's dreams in a way that I don't think has really been discussed yet.<br /><br />First, a few relevant excerpts from Egwene's dreams:<br /><br />&quot;Why did he (Mat) keep shouting, 'I am coming!' and why did she think in the dream that he was shouting at her?&quot;<br /><br />&quot;Straps at waist and shoulder held her (Egwene) tightly to the block, and the headsman's axe descended, but she knew that somewhere someone was running, and if they ran fast enough, the axe would stop.&quot;<br /><br />&quot;A golden hawk stretched out its wing and touched her, and she and the hawk were tied together somehow; all she knew was that the hawk was female.&quot;<br /><br />&quot;Mat, weighing two huge Aes Sedai on a huge set of balance scales, and on his decision depended.  She could not say what; something vast; the world, perhaps.&quot;<br /><br />&quot;Rand confronting her, and the women with her, and one of them was a Seanchan.&quot;<br /><br />Now, on first read, the hawk stretching out its wing to touch her makes us think of Berelain - since she's almost certainly the Hawk in Perrin's life.  But the fact that it's a <i>Golden</i> Hawk makes me believe it's not Berelain.  Nowhere in the series (that I've found) is the hawk on Perrin's shoulder mentioned as being &quot;golden&quot;.  The golden hawk is, however, the royal sigil of the Seanchan, which implicates Tuon (conviently traveling with Mat).<br /><br />That being said, here's what I suggest could happen  . . . .<br /><br />Egwene &amp; company besiege the tower, and things don't go very well.  She's caught, and is about to be executed for being an imposter Amyrlin - where it is Mat's role to arrive just in time to save her (along with Tuon).  Mat is forced to make a choice between Elaida &amp; Egwene (the two huge Aes Sedai).  Mat obviously chooses Egwene, the world is saved, yaddah, yaddah, yaddah.  And down the road, Tuon remains in the White Tower (learning how to channel?) when Rand confronts her, which explains the Seanchan presence.<br /><br />And if you believe that Mat really does (or did) have a thing for Egwene (which I do), it explains how &quot;she and the Hawk are tied together somehow . . .&quot;<br /><br />Anyway, just some ideas.</p><p><b>Burr says:</b> Makes sense to me.  But I wonder how Egwene would lose in the first place, what with all her side has got going for her.<br /><br /><br /> </p>


created: 2002-03-19 21:41:10
subject: The Last Battle (Source....or
body:
<p>The Rebels have been biding their time, but now their leader Rand Skywalker has finally decided it is time to destroy the Dark One's Empire once and for all.<br /><br />Rand has many to aid him in his task.  His two friends, Mat Solo and Perrin (an Ewokbrother); the ghost of Moiraine-Wan Kenobi (who keeps babbling on about Rand's destiny), Princess Nynaeve (who wraps her braid around her ears so she doesn't have to listen to Rand's 'wool-headed ideas') and Loial (Mat's Wookiee companion).  Together, these folks study the holographic schematics of Shayol Ghul and decide to use a small sqaudron of the new sho-wing class fighters carrying paradox-inducing balefire bombs. According to the plan, they will fly down the Thakan'dar trench and bomb the crap out of the Bore, wiping the Dark One out of existence and reverting everything back to pre-Empire days...<br /><br />Everything is going according to plan when (alas!) the sho-wings run out of fuel and crash into the Blight. There, Rand and his friends meet a short, green, pointy-eared sage  (Asmodean reborn) who completes Rand's training in the use of the True Force. Now confident, Rand and his friends march up to the slopes of Shayol Ghul, but are confronted by ten thousand angry Jawas!!!  Perrin shrugs and summons fifty thousand rabid Ewoks who tear the Jawas to pieces. Rand then breaks the last seal and releases the Dark One.  Perrin immediately commands the remaining forty thousand Ewoks to attack the Dark One.  The Ewoks fly at the Dark One like little demented Pikachus, but unfortunately are carved into pieces by the Dark One's red sword made out of solidified balefire. Rand creates his own green sword and engages the Dark One. It is an even fight till Rand leaves himself open and the Dark One cuts off his hand. As Rand is kneeling there crying, the Dark One reveals that he is Rand's father and that he should stop being such a wuss.  Princess Nynaeve tells the two to stop being wool-brained idiots and starts tugging at her hair buns. Out of fear, the Dark One and Rand make up and everyone goes for a drink at the Mos Eisley cantina.<br /></p><p><b>Lauriana Sedai says:</b> LOL!!  I don't even want to know what sort of chemical <i> inspiration </i> brought about the birth of this idea, but I'm highly impressed. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" />  Star Wars and WoT- what more can you ask for in a theory?<br /><br /><br /> </p>


created: 2002-03-19 21:57:52
subject: Is Galad Berelain's Man in White?
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<p>In LoC Min expresses tells us that she has had a viewing of Berelain's future:<br /><br />'I saw nothing of any use to you.  Just a man in white who will make her fall head over heels.'<br /><br />Although the First has been hounding Perrin up until this point, I do not believe that he is the man in white.  I think that this man is Galad.  Since Min's viewing goes nicely with Egwene's dream of Galad putting on white like a death shroud (obviously, his becoming a whitecloak)  I think that Galad is going to be Berelain's man.  Since Berelain is currently with Perrin who is close to where the whitecloaks are concentrated, I think that Galad might meet up with Perrin and Berelain fairly soon.  <br />There is also another question of Galad being able to return Berelains attentions.  Even discounting her relationship with Gawyn, Galad cannot have a relationship with Egwene since she is Aes Sedai and that would go against his whitecloak laws.  However, could he give her up for another woman?  Would Galad consider that right?  I do not think so.  I think that Galad is Berelain's man, but that he will not return the love she feels for him.</p><p><b>Lauriana Sedai says:</b> I've wondered about the 'man in white' viewing myself, and Galad is obviously one good posibility.  First, they're both absolutely beautiful people; it seems like having the two most amazing looking people on the planet get together would be a good idea (both for Jordan's plot's sake, and the WoTland gene-pool).  Secondly, I don't think that Perrin will return Berelain's affections if there is any chance that Faile lives.  One other option, though, could be that the 'man in white' is a man in Saldean mourning garb (which, we are told at one point, is traditionally all white).  <br />As far as Galad not returning Berelain's affections, I don't see why he would continue to remain faithful to the idea of her when he discovers that his brother loves her.  He seems too 'honorable' to even continue feeling something for her after finding out that Gawyn has 'dibs' on her.<br /><br /><br /> </p>


created: 2002-03-20 01:40:57
subject: Mat Cauthon cannot channel
body:
<p>In several theories, I have seen suggestions that Mat Cauthon can channel.  One of the most prevalent reasons given is that Mat's sister, Bode can channel.  Since Bode can channel, they say that Mat might also have the genetic ability to channel.  Let's put this theory to rest right now.<br /><br />In the glossary of LoC, under the word a'dam, we see:<br /><br />&quot;Simply touching an a'dam can result in pain for a man who can channel when the a'dam is being worn by a woman who can channel.&quot;<br /><br />We see a practical example of a man who can channel touching an a'dam worn by a woman in the Epilogue of LoC.  When Aran'gar is taking off the a'dam that Moghedian is wearing, she wonders, &quot;about a woman who apparently channeled Saidin and was hurt, however faintly, by touching what should only hurt a man who could channel.&quot;  Aran&#8217;gar clearly felt some pain in taking off the a'dam.<br /><br />In WH, In 'What the Aelfinn said' we get a practical example of Mat taking the a'dam off of Nestelle din Sakura, &quot;Her hand guided his to the segmented collar around her neck, and it came open for him with a metallic snick.  She drew a very long breath.&quot;<br /><br />Mat Cauthon felt no pain sensation as he took the a'dam off Nestelle.  Therefore, Mat cannot channel.</p><p><b>Jeordam says:</b> Yes, I completely agree.  Whether the ability is dormant, or trained...the spark or not...the a'dam doesn't care either way.  We know this is the case from the knowledge that men of the Blood (back at the Court of Nine Moons) are sometimes put in contact with an a'dam and a damane.  And that it's some serious entertainment for them.... because sometimes it ends in them both dying quite painfully, and sometimes in nothing at all (and they never know until it's done).<br /><br />So then basically.... we finally see...Mat cannot channel.  He doesn't have the spark inborn, and he can't even learn. <br /><br /><br /><br /> </p>


created: 2002-03-22 21:59:02
subject: Rand's Fifth Wound
body:
<p>I want to preface this by saying I am not a Catholic, but this theory relates to the Catholic belief of stigmata. Very Holy people since the 13th century sometimes show signs of the wounds of Christ. These being:<br /><br />(1)	Slashes across the back from the scourge that the Romans beat him with <br />(2)	The holes through his wrists <br />(3)	 And feet from the stakes driven through them to hold him on the cross during his crucifixion<br />(4)	The wound in his abdomen from the spear in his side<br />(5)	 Finally the bleeding wounds on his head from wearing the crown of thorns that was placed upon his head.<br /><br />  Now for my theory, that Rand has shown parallels to the stigmata. First, he received his never healing wound in his side from his battle with Ishamael, which is akin to Christ's wound from the spear. Second, his hands were burned with the mark of the heron on either hand and on top of this he is marked on both forearms with the dragons, which are akin to the holes in the wrists of Christ. Third, the Tower Aes Sedai beat him after they captured him and carried him towards the tower; this is akin to the whip slashes. Fourth, he had the crown of swords placed upon his head after he defeated Sammael and took control of Illian, which is akin to the crown of thorns.<br /></p><p><b>Jeordam says:</b> I'm not Catholic either, but I see where you are going.  When reading the series, it's obvious that Robert Jordan has done his research... and specifically, he knows his Bible.  I've also seen something like this coming (I know the Bible fairly well myself).<br /><br />So I guess we'll see.  The only thing that doesn't parallel is this.  Jesus was resurrected; he did it himself, no one brought him back.  And likewise, Jesus said he was the Son of God (and in fact God himself).... Rand has never said that he was the Creator (or backed it up).<br /><br />So although it seems that there is a strong parallel, there are also inconsistencies.  What I find interesting though is this.  If there is a betrayer...who will it be?  Come on now, if you read the Bible, you can see Judas coming a mile away.  Curious.... hmmm.  *Thinks*<br /><br /><br /><br /> </p>


created: 2002-03-22 22:43:41
subject: Lord of the Grave
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<p>The Dark One is not &quot;The Lord of the Grave&quot; no matter what he claims.  There is only evidence that he can raise chanelers from the dead, and more specifically chanelers who are tied to it.  Throughout the series there has been no other resurrections of people, with perhaps the exception of Kari al'Thor though we do not know for sure whether that was a real vision or not.  It also explains why Asmodean was not revived after his death.  He could have easily been put in a mind trap for Moridin to play with and control as soon as he was revived, and the fact that Moghedien was not killed even though she also helped instruct the &quot;enemies&quot; of the Dark One shows that it is not a great enough of an offense to merit destruction.<br /><br />However, this did not occur, making many speculate that he was killed by balefire.  There is no concrete evidence that this is, or is not the case; however, we do know that his &quot;link&quot; to the dark one was severed.  And I would argue that it was because he was no longer linked to the Dark One that he could not be revived, regardless of how he died.  This would also explain how the Dark One could grant immortality to the Forsaken: as long as they are tied to him they cannot die because that bond protects them from death.<br /><br />Also, even though there is no mention of the women having a connection to the Dark One as male chanelers have to protect them from the taint, it is reasonable to believe that such a thing exists.  After all how could the Dark One grant someone the right to use the True Power if such a link did not exist?<br /><br />It is true that Rand was told that he would serve dead or alive, but as we know one of the names for the Dark One is &quot;The Father of Lies&quot; and only things that he says that have occurred can be believed, and even then sometimes not with absolute certainty.  It is however a great scare tactic, and I believe that was its purpose.  This inability to revive anyone, also explains why the Dark One does not want Rand dead, because he cannot revive him unless he is linked to him, so in the interest of controlling the most powerful chaneler and ta'veren he needs to remain alive, at least until he can be forcibly turned.</p><p><b>Jeordam says:</b> Interesting....very interesting.  A few things though come to mind.  We do not know the how or the why of Asmodean's death.  It could have been punishment, but my belief is that it was an accident (and not by Balefire).  But as to why he wasn't brought back, it is a mystery.  We do know that it's not a thing easily done.  <br /><br />Knowing all this, the link to the Dark One might be exactly what the Dark One needs to keep track of a certain individual after they have died.  Without said link, he looses their thread in the tides of the pattern as it weaves by (and of course, he could not bring said thread burnt out by Balefire for obvious reasons).  But you are correct. Very interesting indeed.<br /> <br />Here is something though.  End of Eye of the World.  Rand cuts Ba'alzamon black cord (his attachment to the Dark One), and it appears that Rand also kills Ba'alzamon.  But if it hold true that Ba'alzamon was Ishmael, who then became Moridin...then either there is a way to re-establish said cord, or it's not needed for the return.  Either way, very interesting.<br /><br /><br /><br /> </p>


created: 2002-03-26 22:18:16
subject: Rand moved the taint, but did not destroy it.
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<p>I know that Rand did not remove the taint from the male half of the source; he simply relocated it to wait for the next Age. <br /><br />My facts are as follows. <br /><br /> The Taint is always described as filthy and oily.   As the taint was &#8220;removed&#8221; in WH, we are told that the taint is &#8220;black as night&#8221;<br /> <br />1. As soon as I finished WH, I was going to drive to the store for cigarettes, but about a block away my car stopped, and refused to run.  I thought nothing of this, but walked home to call the tow truck.  I wasn&#8217;t sure what had happened.<br /><br />2.  When I got back my cat was running around in the lawn, obviously insane.<br /><br />3.  When I told my wife what happened to the car, she said, &#8220;Man, things have just been crazy around here.&#8221;<br /><br />That is when I saw it.  The taint was in my driveway.  It was a big large black spot on my driveway, black as night and filthy.  Where it had run off the driveway, the grass was black, or brown and dying like in the blight.  It had obviously corrupted my once wonderful car like the ways.  I think it is obvious that Rand put the Taint in my driveway to wait for the Wheel to turn back where it will be needed again.  <br /><br />I must say, I don&#8217;t really want the taint in my driveway, or my lawn to turn into the blight, but I guess the Wheel weaves as the Wheel wills. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rand.gif" border="0" /></p><p><b>Jeordam says:</b> Ok...I must say that I was rolling when I read this. From the cat freaking out, to all the wierd drama, to the lawn being corrupted...<br /><br />It all fits!<br /><br />But on another note...how could Rand and Nynaeve move something that is infinately large?<br /><br /><br /> </p>


created: 2002-03-26 22:44:34
subject: Courage to strengthen...
body:
<p>Having read some excellent theories on the title of the next book, I am convinced that one of the main focuses of Crossroads of Twilight will be Moiraine's rescue, which got me thinking again.<br /><br />&quot;Courage to strengthen, fire to blind, music to dazzle, iron to bind.&quot;<br /><br />That is of course the chant that is said to open the game Snakes and Foxes. We know it is more than that; that fire, music, and iron are the only ways to win against the Finns, cheating as it were. However, I think it's giving us even more hints than just that. I believe that from it we can see who will rescue Moiraine.<br /><br />Thom - Thom is obvious. He and Moiraine have been linked for a long time now, she is Aes Sedai; yet, he has called her a fine woman. And well, I won't go into the unnecessary details, suffice to say that Thom and Moiraine seem highly likely to end up together. Then there is of course the most obvious indication yet, Egwene's dream: <br /><br />&quot;Thom Merrilin put his hand into a fire to draw out the small blue stone that now dangled on Moiraine's forehead.&quot;<br /><br />Mat - Mat is heavily linked with the Finns. I think it's clear that it's one of his main story threads. He has been to both the snakes and the foxes ,and he'd do anything to get back at the foxes (which conveniently is where Moiraine is). He plays the game with Olver a lot too. Mat is with Thom right now as they leave Ebou Dar ,and if I am indeed right in my belief that Moiraine's rescue will happen in the next book, it will hardly be surprising for Mat to go with Thom. There is also the same dream that I mentioned above, but expanded on:<br /><br />&quot;Mat throwing dice with blood streaming down his face, the wide brim pulled low so she could not see his wound, while Thom Merrilin put his hand into a fire to draw out the small blue stone that now dangled on Moiraine's forehead.&quot;<br /><br />It could well be separate, but the specific use of the word &quot;while&quot; seems to indicate the events are happening at the same time, possibly together.<br /><br />Perrin - Perrin knows about the Tower of Ghenji from Birgitte. I can't see why Jordan would mention it if someone wasn't going to have to enter there through T'A'R, Perrin's as likely as anyone else.<br /><br />Egwene - I understand that Egwene will be busy with the White Tower conflict, but that means little to a Dreamer. If she was to find out that Moiraine is trapped there through Perrin in T'A'R, I'm sure she would try to rescue her. It could be over in a night.<br /><br />No doubt you are thinking that the last two are a bit dodgy and have no real evidence over the usual theory of Mat and Thom. That is where the chant comes into it. If we separate the chant into it's four components we begin to get some clues:<br /><br />&quot;Music to dazzle&quot; - Thom. Thom will have his harp or flute, it doesn't matter which, he's a musician, and this line refers to him.<br /><br />&quot;Iron to bind&quot; - Perrin. Not only have we seen that Perrin knows of the Tower of Ghenji, he is also a blacksmith and iron really does go with him. His hammer perhaps will be required.<br /><br />&quot;Courage to strengthen&quot; - Egwene. Why Egwene? There are plenty of other characters in the series that have shown courage. Well, I am basing my theory upon a chapter in LoC, chp. 33 which is called...wait for it...&quot;Courage to Strengthen&quot;, an exact quote from the chant. Now this chapter is split between Mat playing the game with Olver (among other things) and Egwene admitting to the Wise One's that she has lied about being Aes Sedai and taking her punishment. At first, it seems the chapter has been named after the Mat bit, after all the chant is said in that very chapter, but the more I think about it, the more I think it refers to Egwene. She is the one who shows courage in this chapter, not Mat. In fact, I think Jordan only included the middle bit (sandwiched between two parts of Egwene showing courage) with Mat playing the game with Olver in this specific chapter as a sneaky way of hinting at Egwene's involvement in rescuing Moiraine.<br /><br />&quot;Fire to blind&quot; - Well, the only one left is Mat. We also know that fire is connected to Mat as he is going to discover how to use the powder they use in fireworks as a weapon. However, I don't know how he would have time to figure this out before going to rescue her. I can't leave Mat out though, or replace him, he's so clearly connected with both Thom and the Finns that ,surely, he must go.<br /><br />So, I believe that Mat and Thom will be involved in rescuing Moiraine through the real world ,and Egwene and Perrin will through T'A'R. Of course, they don't need to know the other pair is going there at all. In fact, it wouldn't surprise me if Egwene and Perrin go into the Tower for an entirely different reason. Perhaps Egwene will be chasing Slayer as Perrin once did ,and he will once again hide in the Tower of Ghenji. Perrin will see Egwene and warn her about it; she will reassure him that she knows more about T'A'R than he in her usual arrogant manner and proceed anyway ,and he'll be forced to follow. Only then will they discover Moiraine.<br /><br />Anyway, that's just a possibility, who knows how they'll all end up there, but that's my theory. Any comments? <br /></p><p><b>Jeordam says:</b> Not bad, not bad at all.  I've read that chant a million times, but I've never really paid it much thought besides the fact that it could have some real value.  As for accrediting each &quot;function&quot; to a different character, I think it's a possibility, but I wonder at the choices.  The music is most likely Thom.  While the Fire could also be him (remember that gleeman use fire in their acts).  As for the Iron, it very well may be Perrin, but not necessarily.  (But remember, that fire is to be used to blind...not necessarily a weapon...so it could be either Thom or Mat.)  <br /><br />As for the courage....very, very interesting pick up seeing the title in place with reference to the obvious Mat, and the not so obvious Egwene.  I had honestly never thought of that.  Of course, it could be coincidence, but then again, it may not.  Likewise, very interesting that the word &quot;while&quot; is used in that dream of Egwene's...connecting Mat and Thom.  It is a very good possibility that those four may be involved in Moiraine's rescue...I guess we'll see.<br /><br /><br /> </p>


created: 2002-03-26 23:29:11
subject: The Gholam- Creatures of the One Power
body:
<p>You know you've read too much Wheel of Time when you spend that time just before you fall asleep contemplating the WoT universe. Such a thing happened to me, and I came up with something that I haven't seen posted elsewhere.<br /><br />The gholam are without a doubt the nastiest Shadowspawn in the Westlands. They can slide under the cracks at the bottom of a doorway, or other thinner places. They are immune to the One Power as well, thus making them lethal to Aes Sedai, or any channeler in general. With their very strong strength, they can rip out a man's throat, or tear a person limb from limb. The only weakness that has been found is Mat's foxhead medallion, which hurts a gholam very much when hit with the medallion. How are the gholam able to do this?<br /><br />I believe that gholam are not only creatures made from the One Power, but are actually creatures made OF the One Power. I don't believe that any explanation has yet been given, from the glossary, the guide, or the man himself. Here is why I believe they are made of the One Power.<br /><br />They are made of the One Power itself, in the shape of a human. Thus, they have no bones, which explains how they can fit through tiny cracks. Since they are nothing but a conglomeration of the One Power, they can shift however they want. They have no blood, which Mat found out after stabbing the gholam in Ebou Dar three times and yet the blade of the knife was clean. They do have the ability to talk. But this can be explained as nothing more than the One Power that makes them up being arranged to allow them some speaking and thinking ability as well.<br /><br />Since they are made of the One Power, the One Power would not hurt the gholam at all. Think of an RPG, where using a Fireball spell on a Lava monster just causes the monster to absorb the spell. Since the gholam is made of the One Power, it would just absorb any weaves used against it made with the One Power. And since it is made of the One Power, it would be attracted to other reservoirs of the One Power, such as the channelers. Thus the gholam can track any channelers in the area.<br /><br />Since the gholam are made of the One Power, this can also explain their very strong strength. The more strength in the One Power a person has, the more they can use it to perform tasks. If the gholam were indeed made of the One Power, it would be very strong.<br /><br />And this would also explain how Mat's foxhead medallion hurt the gholam. If his foxhead medallion, really a ter'angreal, nullifies the One Power used against the thing or person it is on, this would totally hurt the gholam. A creature made of the One Power, who is hit by an object that nullifies that same One Power, would indeed be hurt.<br /><br />Since only Moridin can now use the True Power, and the others used it rarely, we can't be sure how the True Power would work against the gholam. The gholam can pick up True Power channelers as well, but they &quot;smell&quot; differently than One Power channelers. If the True Power is the counterpart to the One Power, just as Saidin is the counterpart to Saidar, then it is not likely that the gholam is immune to the True Power. Or else, how would Moridin manage to control the gholam he orders around? He has to have some sort of power over them.<br /></p><p><b>Jeordam says:</b> Very interesting theory.  I've been wondering why the flows do not work on the gholam...and why something that nullifies said flows does work.  It would be very interesting to see what happens to a gholam in a stedding.<br /><br />So...the literal personification of the One Power itself.  It does sort of work, but the logistics of it all (like how do you bring to life something that is not alive) are a mystery.  I guess we'll see.<br /><br /><br /><br /> </p>


created: 2002-03-27 15:37:52
subject: Ages in the Wheel/Rand as Christ/The Source
body:
<p>Yes, I know the whole Randland/Earth thing gets done into the dirt, but I&#8217;d thought I&#8217;d take a shot at putting a little extra spin on it.  I am not putting forward a belief system or trying to bring lower any religion or religious views.  This is simply my take on the use of real life events and objects in a FICTIONAL world.  Forgive the small mistakes, as I don&#8217;t carry my library around with me.<br /><br />As it says in the beginning of each book, Myth fades to Legend, and even that is lost once that age comes again.  In reconstructing the ages of the Wheel, all we should have to do is go though both Randland and our own Mythical Past and future (as in current prophecies) and piece the puzzle together.<br /><br />First, we put Randland in the third age (as it is called by some).  We know the age of Legends was before that, so the second age.  That leaves us with five ages to fill in.  From what we can see in Randland, both ages have/will end with a major cataclysmic &#8220;end of the world&#8221; event, as well as one person who will be a savior to the world; Rand in the third age, Hawkwing in the previous.<br /> <br />If we go through our own folklore, we have a Christ who will end our current age in his return, and ended the previous age when he came before.  We can also piece together (with continuing difficulty, because as Thom said, no one knows how the story will change in the ages to come), that the age before Christ began with the Flood.  The world was saved at the end of that age by one man, Noah, but it is possible there was someone else not mentioned in the lore. That&#8217;s three ages.<br /><br />A little more on the scientific bent is the fact that every several millennia we have an Ice Age.<br /><br />Summing up.  Each age, both in Randland as well as in our own lore being used in that world, ends with the coming of a savior.  Christ is referred to by many names, and it wouldn&#8217;t surprise me that in a couple of Ages it wouldn&#8217;t also be Dragon.<br /><br />First Age:  Christ-Current day.<br />Second Age:  Age of Legends.<br />Third Age:  Randland.<br />Fourth Age:  Post-Randland (because we do hope for a happy ending)<br />Fifth Age:  Ice Age<br />Sixth Age:  Adam-Noah<br />Seventh Age:  Noah-Christ<br /><br />All ages end with a victory for the Light, but to varying degrees.  For example, the end of the Noah Age ended with the Flood, thus being the savior of the living; the end of the Christ Age ended with the the current age, the current Age (supposedly) should end with a new Age of Legends, AoL ended with the tainting of Saidin, etc., etc..<br /><br />The use of Saidin/Saidar is not necessarily ever forgotten completely, as it was used extensively in the AoL, even today there are Cloistered peoples who do &#8220;miracles&#8221;.  Catholic Nuns (which also start as Novices), for example, or monks and priests around the world.  There is even a group in Asia which can unexplainably stay in sub-zero whether for long periods of time without any effect to them, even melting the snow around them.  These groups are a shadow/precursor/etc. of things to come/have come in Randland.<br /><br />There&#8217;s the basic jist.  Myth fades to Legend, and even Legend fades from memory.  Good fiction.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /></p><p><b>Raserei says:</b> Normally, I'm an advocate who loudly says Randland is not earth, but, seeing this, i couldn't help but conceed that it's a neat idea.<br /><br />When I looked at your cycle you gave, I was thinking that perhaps God/The Creator, or whatever he might be called in another age, really continues his role as a deity.<br /><br />Though, there is one element that goes against the grain of the Creator in Randland.  The Creator is thought to never touch the world, for he is the one who made it, and he leaves it to the devices of man.  While this is also true for God and our current state of being, having free will and such, the one act of flooding the world during Noah's time isn't like the Creator.  He wouldn't act out like that.<br /><br />Unless, the flooding was in fact an act of the Dark One/Satan, in which the bible covers it up by saying the people were impure.<br /><br />All in all, I sorta kinda like this idea, while I still adamantly say Randland is not Earth. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /> </p>


created: 2002-03-27 18:43:36
subject: Verin Channeling in Stedding Tsofu
body:
<p>I have always leaned toward the theory that Verin is something more that ordinary.  However, during my latest run through book 3, I came upon this:<br /><br />&quot;Sheriam put a hand to the man's chest, and jerked it back twice as fast, hissing.  Steeling herself visibly, she touched him again, and maintained the Touch longer.  'Dead,' she muttered.  'As dead as it is possible to be, and more.'&quot; (Dragon Reborn; pg. 143 HB)<br /><br />This, of course, is the scene in which the Gray Man tries to kill Egwene in the tower.<br /><br />It seems to me that Sheriam's ability to sense the soul of the man (or lack thereof) is exactly the same as Verin's ability to sense the soul, or lack thereof, of Trayal, the Ogier from Stedding Tsofu who survived his meeting with the Black Wind (in a manner of speaking).<br /><br />Since Verin was in a <i>stedding</i> she shouldn't have been able to  channel.  Also, in the scene in book 3 (pp.143-144), Sheriam hides the body, but it specifically shows that she did not embrace the power until after she touched the Gray Man.<br /><br />I do not wish to attempt to disprove the Verin lightfriend theory here, but I am merely stating that her actions in Stedding Tsofu cannot be used as evidence for her being a lightfriend.</p><p><b>Vercingetorix says:</b> Finally, someone submitted a theory saying this.  I have been an ardent supporter of Verin not being able to channel in the <i>stedding</i>, and of the non-existence of lightfriends in general.  Two other things to support why Verin didn't channel also should be noted.  First, the Ogier Elders <i>asked</i> Verin to touch him, and they know she cannot channel in a <i>stedding</i>.  Secondly, in Winter's Heart we hear Slayer describe what it feels like to touch a Gray Man, that &quot;they felt cold and empty to the touch.  It had been like killing a corpse.&quot;  Clearly, the souless need only to be touched for one to know that they are so.  Nice job.<br /><br /><br /> </p>


created: 2002-03-30 16:14:52
subject: Science of Randland&#8482; : Genetic Manipulation of a Race
body:
<p>This theory is jointly authored by nUUdleman and myself (Geoff).  Before we get into the details a little background is necessary.  This theory is not based on any direct quotes from the books but more from a general impression created over the course of the series.  It originated from a conversation between us about the odd starting age of the main characters.  In any equivalent society (medieval/renaissance) boys and girls are considered men and women at a far younger age than in Randland (or the Westlands as it is now known).  This led me to make the observation that it seems that people live to be far older in general in Randland than they would in an equivalent society of our own history.  nUUdleman then pointed out that disease seems almost unheard of and death far less frequent, especially at early ages.  For example, only 1 in 6 people even lived to see the age of 20 even in the mid 18th century.  And most of those that did not live that long died by the age of 5.  One need only look at statistics of Africa to see the trend such as it was in the developed nations some 250 years ago.<br /><br />So what do we have?  From the commentary in the books people live to ages comparable with our modern society quite regularly and the death of the young is infrequent and something to be greatly mourned.  People do not have huge families of multiple children to make up for the deaths because the deaths do not occur and, certainly in Andor, children are not considered adults until around their early 20&#8217;s whereas in a comparable society of our time they would be considered adults at the ages of between 13 and 16.  We then moved onto was why this is the case.  Why in Randland is disease and the death of the young so comparatively scarce?  There are a few realistic options.<br /><br />The first is advanced medical technology.  It is plainly obvious that the society of Randland does not have a level of medical technology anywhere near comparable to our own.  The most your average citizen will have access to is a herbalist, a village wisdom or whatever the local equivalent is.  Herbalism can cure basic ailments and, if the practitioner has a good level of knowledge of hygiene, can even give reasonable care for serious wounds.  It would seem from the scenes after the Trolloc attack in Emonds Field in <u>The Eye of the World</u> that this level of hygiene can be assumed (Nynaeve and Egwene were filthy all over except their hands which Nynaeve insisted were kept washed and clean constantly whilst tending the wounded) at least among those in the profession.  (<u>The Eye of the World</u>, Chapter 7, Out of the Woods, pg. 91-94. Paperback.)  That is the limit of the medicine available to most though.  True there is Aes Sedai Healing which, especially when Nynaeve&#8217;s advanced Healing weaves are taken into account, is probably more effective than our own medical technology.  But the vast majority of the population never have access to it.  Most of them would refuse it even if offered Healing anyway.  So this is obviously not the reason.  So what else could it be?<br /><br />There are two other major possible options and, in our opinions, it is quite likely a combination of the two.  They both go back to the Age of Legends when technology and the use of the One Power were far in advance of that in the Third Age.  These two possibilities are that the AoLers either a) wiped out disease; or b) genetically altered the human race to be more resistant to disease, probably as one modification among many.  We know that they had the ability to do this, in fact they had far greater capabilities than this.  Witness Aginor&#8217;s creation of Trollocs and the other shadow-spawn through genetic manipulation of humans and animals for (rather twisted) evidence of this.  If they were able to bring about this genetically mis-matched melding of species then they were certainly able to genetically alter the viruses and bacteria of the world and beneficially modify their own genetic structure.  In fact given this level of technology and the presence of the One Power to aid it, there is no good reason for them to <i>not</i> have done this.  So what are the problems with these ideas?<br /><br />We shall deal with the points in order.  Firstly point a), what would happen if the AoLers totally wiped out all disease on the planet and kept suppressing the emergence of new strains until the Breaking? It seems likely that the immune systems of people who were not exposed to disease would severely degrade over time with the emergence of new strains of bacteria and new viruses, the population would drop like wheat beneath a scythe in a rampage of plagues of what we would consider common illnesses that their bodies were just not able to handle.  This can be dealt with simply by assuming that case b) is true.  If their immune systems were modified with the rest of their genetic structure then there is no reason that they should degrade over time and therefore the population would be no more susceptible to these newly evolved strains of common illnesses than we are today.<br /><br />&#8220;But&#8221; - I hear you non-believers cry &#8211; &#8220;why are people in the Third Age affected by fevers and colds now then?&#8221;  It seems, even with their startling technology and capability with the One Power, unlikely that the AoLers would have wiped out <i>every</i> disease in the world.  In fact it would have been impossible; Flu, the common cold, etc. can come, literally, out of nowhere and they mutate with each new host be that host human or not.  What they <i>could</i> have done was wipe out the big diseases.  The real killers.  They could have done away with Typhoid, Polio, Small Pox, Aids, Ebola, Hepititus, Malaria, Cholera, Tuberculosis, Tetanus, Measles and so on and so forth and there is no real reason that they wouldn&#8217;t have done so.  Now consider the diseases that we see in the Third Age.  We don&#8217;t see any of the big killers, none of the epidemics which ran rife through medieval Europe.  All we really see are common colds and fevers, the kind of things that could be brought about by mumps or chicken pox and the like.  Diseases which, with the correct care and medicinal treatment, are very much treatable even in a society whose medicine is based upon herbalism.  True there will be deaths from these diseases and some of the worst epidemics in history have been caused by various strains of the flu virus, but once again if point b) is the case then the generally hardier, modified immune systems of the populace would account for the limited number of these deaths and the lack of epidemics.<br /><br />As to point b), the genetic modification of the human race, there are few arguments that can be made against this.  From the evidence we have seen - the lack of disease and seeming general resistance of the population to disease, the general longevity of the population, the lack of deaths among the young and very young and the fact that such manipulation was obviously possible &#8211; it seems extremely likely that this modification occurred.  The only major argument against this is the simple fact that some sections of the society may have resisted having the changes made.  This is a contemporary problem and one which our society will have to deal with in the very near future.  We can see in the media just how divided opinions are in our own world.  Therefore, it is entirely reasonable to believe that such division of opinion was present in the Age of Legends as well, or at least in the culture leading up to the Age of Legends where the beginnings of the reprogramming of the human genome would have begun to take shape.<br /><br />With the culture present in the Age of Legends it is perfectly reasonable to assume that the modifications, if made, were made in one sweeping change to the human genetic code.  Even if this was not the case and it was done bit by bit the result would eventually be the same.  Those who had not been modified would intermingle with those who had and the modifications would be spread throughout the human species.  The description of the culture and society of the AoL indicates that it was one cohesive whole across the entire planet with no national or racial divides and so any genetic modifications made would have been spread to at least some degree throughout the entire population.  Thus if the modification was done, and I firmly believe that it was, the entire population would have been affected to some extent, even those whose ancestors had resisted the initial modifications.<br /><br />So in the Third Age, an Age with a level of medical technology that amounts to nothing more than skilled herbalists, there is no plague, no real killer diseases.  The average member of the population has a good life expectancy, far better than would be assumed for a comparable culture of our history.  And the death of young people under 20, and especially under 5, is virtually unknown hence families are not huge and children are considered to be children until their late teens/early 20&#8217;s.  There has to be some explanation for these factors and with this theory we hope that we have presented a logical and well thought out explanation for them in the form of the genetic modification and elimination of killer diseases arguments.  They had the capability, the society and the reason.  There is no good reason that they would not have done this, every reason that they would and evidence to support that they did.<br /></p><p><b>Vercingetorix says:</b> Wow.  You guys have put together quite an elaborate theory.  There's not much I feel I can say against this, so I'll just say good job.<br /><br /><br /> </p>


created: 2002-03-31 21:48:40
subject: Mesaana is NOT Zaida!
body:
<p>In the FAQ and other theories, people have proposed Mesaana to be hiding out among the sea folk as Zaida din Parede Blackwing. Here is some of what is said:<br /><br />'&quot;Try again&quot;, Zaida commanded, leaning forward intently. &quot;I want to see something.&quot;...Nynaeve considered telling the woman she could not see anything they were doing anyway, but rejected the thought immediately.'<br /><br /><i>...These seem to suggest that Zaida can, in fact, see what Nynaeve and Talaan are doing - that she can channel. There is also a lot of possible circumstantial evidence surrounding Zaida - her last name contains the word &quot;Black&quot;, she is mentioned as tapping her lips as Mesaana has, she is mentioned as standing on her tiptoes as Mesaana did...</i> (from the FAQ)<br /><br />NOW, It's true that if Mesaana was Zaida, she could hide her ability to channel.  However, I think these quotes are being over analyzed.  What Zaida wants to see in this passage is if Nynaeve can break a shield...after a couple rounds of going at it; she is intent because she is a Wavemistress and she wants <i>in full</i> the Aes Sedai end of the bargain fulfilled, that is, she wants to make sure that her strongest are learning the most they can.  <br /><br />In response to a quote in Yubi's theory regarding the fact that perhaps Zaida can see Nynaeve's flows: <i>This is also a quote that is dubious. Nynaeve, despite being way stronger than the other Aes Sedai in the palace, probably knows the least of what could be of interest to the Atha'an Miere. There is a sentence following this quote, saying how Nynaeve couldn't understand in what way she was be more edifying than the others. I can't either, assuming Zaida is just another Windfinder. Remember also that Zaida specifically asks for Nynaeve to come the next day, instead of anyone else.</i><br /><br />Look, We know that Nynaeve is a bit mercurial, and she will go off at the slightest annoyance... we also know that Zaida is bossy and stern (like Nynaeve) and so those two butt heads.  A quote from WH, Prologue: &quot;Zaida din Parede --- carried an air of command rather than arrogance, a certainty that she would be obeyed&quot;. Does this sound like Nynaeve? Yes. These two obviously just clash. That is a much simpler explanation for why Zaida keeps pressing Nynaeve and why Nyn thinks of retorting back. And as for why Nyn was called back the next day... well, 1) Talaan had success and Zaida wants to see it duplicated and 2) both Z and N get pleasure out of irritating the person who challenges their power (think of Nynaeve and the Kin), so why <i>wouldn't</i> Zaida want to use Nyn again if it's just going to further annoy Nyn? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Another idea that is put forward is that Zaida and Mesaana are the only two women in WOT that tap their fingers to their lips.  Yubi's theory states: <i>I don't think any other Forsaken have done it , and we know Mesaana has, so if the point is to distinguish Mesaana from other female Forsaken, this is an obvious gesture to use.</i> (here Yubi is comparing Zaida's lip tapping to Mesaana's). Yes good thinking, BUT in TSR, chapter 1, pg 33 (paperback): &quot;The Amyrlin tapped a finger against her lips and looked at Min consideringly.&quot;  I really don't think RJ wanted to associate Suian Sanche with Mesaana or Zaida, and so I don't think that this is acceptable evidence for why Mesaana is Zaida.<br /><br />Also, in reference to height: yes, both Mesaana and Zaida go onto their tiptoes. I do not think that this comparison works either. Mesaana is tall (when Alviarin sees her) and she doesn't have to raise herself up that much next to Semirhage (who is as tall as a man). Zaida is SHORT. Ok, sure she COULD disguise her height, but that's pretty damn difficult, especially if she's gonna be around other channelers (and ones who know how to mask oneself) and be on a BOAT.<br /><br />To sum up:<br />1. Zaida can't channel; she wants her bargain fulfilled.<br />2. Zaida and Nynaeve are similar, they clash, and they purposely irritate one another.<br />3. The Amyrlin taps her lips...So Mesaana and Zaida cannot be compared on this level.<br />4. Zaida is short; Mesaana is tall; they are not really comparable.</p><p><b>Burr says:</b> But we <i>know</i> Siuan isn't Mesaana, so could she be the exception that proves the rule?<br /><br /><br /> </p>


created: 2002-04-02 18:44:24
subject: The Science of Randland: Entropy for Beginners
body:
<p>As you may be able to guess from the title this theory concerns entropy and its consequences for the Wheel of Time, mainly the whole concept of an infinite repetition of events, seven Ages coming again and again for all time.<br /><br />Now for this post to be valid there is one major assumption to make which people may disagree with me on.  What I am assuming is that the series is set in a universe where, bar possible trickery involving the One Power, the laws of physics apply as we know them.  The simple facts of gravity, sunlight and human beings even existing support this assumption very well as very minor differences in the underlying physical laws of the universe would mean that life, of our type at least, could not exist and stars would not form, certainly not with planets in their life-zones.  Add to this the fact that it is set on an Earth-like planet (possibly the Earth itself though that is not a topic of this theory) and I believe that it is safe to conclude that it is valid to apply our physics to this universe barring the possible exception of the One Power as I have previously noted.<br /><br />What does this mean then?  Well quite simply it means that the laws of thermodynamics are valid in Randland, among others.  This leads to entropy, the transformation of order to chaos, being an essential part of the universe.  A standard example of this is breaking a glass, the glass is a highly ordered structure of molecules arranged in a rigid and unnatural way, and it is sitting on the edge of a table.  It gets knocked off of the table and shatters as it hits the floor, this is a change from order to chaos on an easily observable scale.  It is also a bad example in terms of physics but one which is easy to visualise and hence often used.  A far better example is the interaction of gases at two different temperatures.  If you put a hot gas together with a cold gas (relatively speaking) inside a container (a perfect one for this example, i.e. ignoring the rest of the universe) then after a time the two gases will have interacted such that they are at the same temperature, they have become a uniform temperature mix of particles which, in reality, would continue to expand and cool along with the rest of the universe.  This is an increase in entropy.  In fact the eventual fate of our universe, providing no Big Crunch occurs in the future which seems very unlikely at this point in our understanding, will be an entropic heat death.  This is the eventual cooling and expansion of the whole universe after billions or even trillions of years until it becomes a gas of uniform density and temperature.  A very boring and unsatisfying end I&#8217;m sure you&#8217;ll agree but currently the most plausible.<br /><br />&#8220;Now&#8221; - I hear you cry  - &#8220;what has all of this to do with the Wheel of Time?&#8221;  Simple, if the turning of the ages is infinite and has had no apparent beginning and will have no ending then why are the planet and people still there?  Why does the sun still shine and stars still light the night sky?  True it is possible that we are looking at the Wheel early enough for the heat death to not yet have occurred.  But then we must ask the question &#8216;in an infinitely old system what meaning has the word early?&#8217;  The answer is &#8216;none at all,&#8217; if it has been going for an infinite time then it would be in heat death with an average of one proton per billion light years cubed or something equally stupid.  In fact if current predictions by GUTs (Grand Unified Theories) are correct there wouldn&#8217;t be any matter left at all, everything would have decayed to energy which would be stretched so thinly across spacetime as to be virtually undetectable, even the protons!<br /><br />So maybe the system isn&#8217;t infinite then, maybe there was a beginning a few billion years ago, like our universe, and the system will eventually go on to heat death, like our universe.  Then again isn&#8217;t it supposed to go on forever, the turning of the wheel and the coming again of ages past and ages future?  The point is that there is no way the system can be infinitely old as many seem to assume, there must have been a beginning and there must, eventually, be an end.<br /><br />What, then, can possibly change all this and make the system infinite?  The only possible &#8216;human&#8217; answer is the One Power, but what can it do.  Is it possible that Channellers in a later Age, maybe the Seventh, are <i>far</i> more powerful than those described in the books?  By that I mean powerful enough to make those two giant sa&#8217;angreal look like kiddies toys without external help.  Due to the apparent limitations of the Power, such as its effectiveness over distance, it would require Channellers of incomprehensible strength to alter the course of the universe, reset it to the point of the first Age (maybe) and begin the cycle all over again.  This is highly unlikely but I will accept it as possible if I have to.  There is one other possibility for Channellers that would require less, but still unbelievable, strength in the Power.  Maybe the universe has died a heat death, an equivalent infinite time ago, but the portion of the universe inhabited by humanity in the books, i.e. their galaxy in it&#8217;s entirety, has been kept together by Seventh Age Channellers, the process knocking civilisation back to barbarianism and beginning the cycle over each time at the First Age.  This is about all the One Power could do to counteract entropy and how it would be accomplished I dread to think.<br /><br />There is a final One Power possibility that I can think of.  The last chance for the One Power to do something is quite an interesting idea, currently the evidence is that no Big Crunch is ever going to occur to reset our universe or create a new one from the ashes of the old.  What if, however, powerful Channellers, maybe the two giant sa&#8217;angreal would be enough for this, were to cause a catastrophe on the quantum scale, a vacuum collapse or some such, which led to a Big Crunch and the birth of a new universe from it&#8217;s destruction.  By inflation theory if this universe somehow (the Creator?) had the same physical laws then the seed universe present before inflation occurred wouldn&#8217;t matter and a universe like ours would be formed, maybe to have Randland form and humanity evolve, with some type of soul memory linking them to their past lives in the previous universe.  Interesting though this idea is I personally feel that it is even more unlikely than the possibility of immensely powerful Channellers resetting the entropy of the universe or a part thereof.<br /><br />The other possibilities for the universe of the Wheel of Time actually being infinite as claimed lie in the two Deity figures in the Wheel of Time universe, the Dark One and the Creator.  The Creator is an infinitely powerful being outside of time if He really is as claimed.  If this being were to intervene, possibly in a final conflict against the Dark One at the end of the Seventh Age, and set the clock back to the beginning then the whole argument would be null and void.  A being of this power level can do pretty much what He wants after all. Why such a being would do such a thing I really don&#8217;t know, but who am I to question the motives of infinitely powerful deities?  Oh right, I&#8217;m a physicist, it&#8217;s kind of my job, maybe I should get a new career&#8230;<br /><br />The final possibility as I see it is that at the ending of the Seventh Age having failed to defeat the Creator, destroy time itself, etc. the Dark One resets the universe.  As a being I believe that the Dark One may have the power to do this.  Unfortunately this aspect of the theory is in some ways the least likely of all.  If the Dark One were free of His prison and able to touch the world enough that He could reset the entropic state of the entire universe, of even a galaxy sized portion of it, back to how it was at the beginning of the 1st Age then He would be able to destroy time itself and win the struggle for control of Randland.  This would be a bad thing and can be assumed to not have happened given that the world is not under the Shadow as we are reading the books.<br /><br />Looking back at these possibilities none of them seem likely.  The Dark One would win if he were able to touch the world to the degree needed to change the entropy value of the universe.  The amount of the One Power needed to make such a fundamental alteration to the universe on such a huge scale is totally unprecedented and, finally, the Creator isn&#8217;t exactly known for getting involved.  This makes it very unlikely that He is the one to reset the universe every seven Ages.  All of this points to the fact that the universe in which the Wheel of Time is set has never had an entropy reset of any form.  This being the case and the physics of the natural world applying to that universe (which I believe they must) there is no way that the Wheel of Time is infinite.  It is in fact very finite and has been turning for billions of years.  This may seem like an infinite time or as good as to most people but trust a physicist, it&#8217;s not.</p><p><b>Vercingetorix says:</b> Yet again, another one of those theories that I am simply going to say that you did a great job and leave it at that.<br /><br /><br /> </p>


created: 2002-04-03 12:08:47
subject: A little evidence for Graendal
body:
<p>From Path of Daggers, it is made clear that Graendal made a visit to Illian after Sammael's death, looking for Angreal and other such things amidst his former possessions:<br /><br />'Graendal wished there had been even a simple transcriber among the things she had removed from Illian after Sammael's death'<br /><br />tPoD - New Alliances (Chapter 12)<br /><br />She is clearly not dissuaded from this by the presence of Rand and his Asha'man:<br /><br />'A pleasant surprise to find anything useful with Al'Thor and his puppies who called themselves Asha'man constantly in and out of Sammael's chambers in the Great Hall of the Council'<br /><br />tPoD - New Alliances (Chapter 12)<br /><br />Knowing this, it seems very likely to that Graendal spend some time in Caemlyn after Rahvin's death, looking through his possessions.  She knew where Rahvin was, having been involved in the little conspiracy of four (Rahvin, Graendal, Lanfear, Sammael).  <br /><br />This would be an explanation for her presence in Caemlyn at the time of Asmodean's death.<br /><br />Regarding Asmodean's death, I am certain that he was not killed by one of the Chosen with the intent of punishment for his treason.  His death was far too quick and painless for this.  In addition, his corpse was not put out as an example, but destroyed.  Semhirage could have carried out punishment for his treason far more efficiently than the quick death he was allowed.<br /><br />This leaves the death as either a private motive, or a spur of the moment act that was entirely unpremeditated.  It seems unlikely to me that it was a private motive, as there are none that we know about, and so it would not be 'obvious'.<br /><br />The unplanned death seems to fit well with Graendal as the killer. If Graendal was in Caemlyn, and ran into Asmodean while looking around, she would certainly have killed him on the spot to avoid him raising an alarm.  <br /><br />This avoids the question of how Graendal knew where Asmodean was to kill him, as she did not need to know.  Another question that this avoids is why the body was disposed of - if it were not, Rand would have found out about the presence of someone capable of killing one of the Chosen - i.e. another Chosen. <br /><br />Admittedly there is some conjecture here, but I think some of it may be of value.<br /></p><p><b>Burr says:</b> We <i>do</i> know of possible private motives for other suspects, such as Slayer and Lanfear.  What is in question about either of those two suspects is generally whether or not he/she had the opportunity, not motive.<br /><br />Also, Graendal stole Sammael's *angrael because she knew they were there and about where to look for them.  She didn't know either of those things in the case of Caemlyn.  She had absolutely no reason to suspect that Rahvin had *angrael.  Thus, going to Caemlyn was a very large risk, but without the high probability of reward as there was in Illian.  <br /><br />Moreover, if she <i>was</i> searching for Rahvin's supposed *angrael, why would she be searching in the same area in which Asmodean was searching for a pantry?  I don't think a King's quarters are likely to have been near the kitchens.<br /><br /><br /> </p>


created: 2002-04-04 10:07:27
subject: Rands seizing sickness
body:
<p>The origin of Rand's seizing sickness, and proof it wont happen anymore (maybe).<br /><br />LoC, Ch 21: To Shadar Logoth, pg 460:<br />&#8220;He began weaving sadin around the way gate, using all five powers&#8230;from the first flow he channeled, the taint seemed to pulse inside him, a slowly building vibration.  It must have been the evil in Shadar Logoth itself, a resonance of evil to evil.  Even in the Void he felt dizzy from those reverberations, as though the world swung beneath his feet in time to them; they made him want to vomit up anything he had ever eaten&#8230;.&#8221;<br /><br />(461) &#8220;&#8230;tying off the weave and loosing sadin brought only some relief.  The residue fifth that always seemed to remain behind still throbbed; it almost felt as though the ground were throbbing beneath his boots. His teeth and ears ached.&#8221;<br /> <br />This description is very like those of Rand's seizing sickness. <br /><br />In CoS, Ch 36: Blades, Fain cuts Rand with the dagger from Shadar Logoth, on top of the would that Rand suffered in his fight with Ishamael.  The power of Shadar Logoth is in the knife that cut Rand, so a part of Shadar Logoth is in Rand's wound.  So every time he channels the evil of the taint and the evil of Shadar Logoth reverberated off each other, and made him sick.  Now that the taint is gone there won't be any reverberation from taint to Rand's wound, so no more sickness.<br /><br />However the Taint in his bones could still reverberate.</p><p><b>Burr says:</b> I think Rand just removed the taint from saidin, not from his wound.  If the premise of your theory is correct, all that channeling in Shadar Logoth may make his sickness even worse, not better.<br /><br /><br /> </p>


created: 2002-04-04 23:05:35
subject: The Nature of Ta'veren
body:
<p>This may be a little long, but I'll try to keep it as concise as possible.<br /><br /><b>PART 1 - The Magnet Theory</b> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Going by the theme of the books that everyone's life is a thread in the weave, then a <i>ta'veren</i> would act as a magnetic thread (without any polarity issues).  Hence the closer in contact that a regular thread is to a <i>ta'veren</i> thread the greater the pull on the thread to conform to the <i>ta'veren</i>.  The greater the strength of the <i>ta'veren</i> the greater the pull (and hence effect).<br /><br />This explains why those around <i>ta'veren</i> are pulled to do and say things that they would not normally do, or would only do on the odd chance.  It also explains why <i>ta'veren</i> have less choice in life than regular people.  If you look at individual threads they are drawn to the magnet (like when you put a magnet into a pile of paperclips and pull it out).  But there are many more regular threads than <i>ta'veren</i> threads, thus the magnet is forced to conform to the pattern of the weave (one magnet surrounded by millions of moving paperclips).<br /><br />This agrees with what Rand figured out, by saying that he learned not to fight his <i>ta'vereness</i> because he only had some control in his life if he went along with it.<br /><br />So simply put:<br /><br />Macroscopically -&gt; <i>Ta'veren</i> are pulled by the pattern.<br />Microscopically -&gt; <i>Ta'veren</i> pull the pattern.<br /><br /><br />Now if <i>ta'veren</i> are like magnets, those in contact with <i>ta'veren</i> become somewhat magnetic themselves, just much less so (like a paperclip connected to a magnet able to pick-up another paperclip).  So the other major characters in the story have some virtual, or latent <i>ta'veren</i> ability as well, just more subtle and less strong.<br /><br />A few examples of this is:<br /><br />A half trained Nynaeve noticing something bizarre about Moghedien just in time to confront her, or moving to a safe place just in time to avoid being balefired.<br /><br />Talmanes (a pretty bright fellow) wonders aloud as to whether Egwene is <i>ta'veren</i> after noticing the same kind of effect as Mat elicits.<br /><br />... and so forth.<br /><br /><i>Ta'veren</i> are also drawn to one another as noted most recently by Rand and Mat's swirling colours, or Perrin &quot;knowing&quot; that Rand needed him.<br /><br />These secondary &quot;magnetic&quot; threads connect to yet more and more people creating a swirl around the <i>ta'veren</i> thread.  This effect is enhanced by multiple <i>ta'veren</i> threads being linked together.<br /><br /><br /><b>PART 2 - THREADS WITH A PURPOSE</b> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />The presence of a <i>ta'veren</i> affects chance, but this chance is not completely random, it has a purpose.  Each of the three main characters is twisting chance for different reasons.<br /><br />Mat - Chaos<br /><br />Mat's <i>ta'vereness</i> is based on chaotic items like battle, dice and the likes (no need to elaborate on this).  Much like the &quot;raging power&quot; <i>saidin</i> portion of the one power.<br /><br />Perrin - Order<br /><br />Perrin creates order and stability.  This was best exemplified by banding together the people of the Two Rivers to fight the Trollocs and create a nation, unlike what happened when Manethern was destroyed.  Perrin's <i>ta'vereness</i> acting through Faile (to get additional aid) was the deciding factor in changing the outcome of the battle.  This is much like the &quot;tranquil river&quot; <i>saidar</i> portion of of the one power.<br /><br />So if Mat is like <i>saidin</i> and Perrin is like <i>saidar</i>, then what is Rand, and why does he have to be a more powerful <i>ta'veren</i> than either of the other two?<br /><br />Rand is Unity, he is the sinewous line that joins the two halves, or as Cadsuane noted in her needle point - a hand holding the two sides together.  To join two items that repulse each other like <i>saidin</i> and <i>saidar</i>, or chaos and order, the item that joins them must be significantly stronger.  This unity is apparent in many things, banding together of the Aiel (almost complete), banding together of the nations (however imperfectly).  Vast majority of characters that come in contact with him now have amourous attachments that did not previously exist.  <br /><br />And by Rand being the unity aspect he has effects of both order and chaos surrounding him, hence the reason Min noted that there is a balance in his <i>ta'veren</i> effects.<br /><br />Now why are some of these unities imperfect?  Because Rand has (had) not fully accepted his <i>ta'vereness</i>.  He accepted being the Dragon Reborn, but he has not accepted being a unifier.  He is trying to do everything by himself or only with Asha'man, by not accepting the need for others or Aes Sedai his plans fall short.  But as seen in Winter's Heart he is beginning to learn this and sent off Aes Sedai to resolve the problems with the rebels in Haddon Mirk.  Tear will finally be 100% behind him soon.</p><p><b>Vercingetorix says:</b> Excellent way to illustrate how <i>ta'veren</i> work.  I don't know if I agree about their <i>ta'vereness</i> rubbing off on others though.  That's debateable.  What do the rest of you think?<br /><br /><br /> </p>


created: 2002-04-05 22:50:35
subject: Bloody rocks and Slayer's ultimate role
body:
<p>&quot;Twice dawns the day when his blood is shed<br />Once for morning, once for birth<br />Red on black, the Dragon's blood stains the rock of Shayol Ghul<br />In the Pit of Doom shall his blood free men from the Shadow&quot;<br /><br />The two dawns are easily explained.  What will happen is the Dark One will free himself and will darken the sky, as he did when the bore was drilled.  Then Rand will win and the sky will return to normal; there you have your two dawns.   <br /> <br />	Now the blood part is a little harder to explain.  All through the story blood has been used to mean relatives. Rand has only two living relatives: Galad and Luc.  I believe that the &#8216;Dragon's blood on the rock of Shayol Ghul' is probably going to refer to the death of his half brother Galad.  I am not sure of the events but I believe that Galad will be at Shayol Ghul during the last battle and his death will some how help the side of good. <br /> <br />	Luc has way too much history in the books for him to be simply an assassin for the dark side (and a wolf-killer).  He has been included in a foretelling, and the first time he is mentioned in the books is in a dark prophecy.  This tells me he is going to be a very big player in the final battle.<br /> <br />	What we know of Gitara Moroso is that she was a very strong &#8216;foreteller', and using that talent she has set the stage for the big players in Randland.  She is the one directly responsible for setting in motion the actions which led to Rand's birth.  And she is also the one that indirectly created slayer by telling Luc to go to the blight.  Since Luc is the center of so much prophecy, I think he has been over-looked and that he has a major role yet to play.<br /><br />	When Rand finally makes it to the Pit of Doom I believe that Slayer/Luc will be waiting for Rand.  I then think that a major sword fight will take place and in the end Rand will slay his uncle and this will help free men from the Shadow.<br /><br />Lord Kaloff <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /></p><p><b>Lauriana Sedai says:</b> Well, I've seen a lot of speculation about whose blood will be spilled on the rocks. I know that it's entirely possible that it will be Rand's, as much as I don't like the idea of it. I had already considered that it might be the blood of one of his children (that's been thrown around a lot, I know) but I hadn't thought about Galad or Luc.  I'm not sure that we have any proof that either one of them will be there at the last battle, but it's possible. If you're right and it is one of the two of them, I personally hope it's Luc- that stuck-up pretty-boy darkfriend really ticks me off... grrrr... Faile should have knifed him when she had the chance. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /> </p>


created: 2002-04-06 19:17:02
subject: Moiraine is really Gandalf!
body:
<p>Moiraine is Gandalf!  Don&#8217;t laugh (well, okay &#8211; do)! But just bear with me and I&#8217;ll show you how it works.  The similarities between the two are startling  (they will hereafter be referred to as M and G):<br /><br />M &#8211; Comes out of nowhere, is an impressive and mystic figure, and sends four youngsters (Rand, Perrin, Mat and Egwene -- Nynaeve just tagged along) off on a desperate journey to combat an immense Evil  <br />G &#8211; Comes out of nowhere, is an impressive and mystic figure, and sends four youngsters (Frodo, Sam, Merry and Pippin) on a desperate journey to combat an immense Evil<br /><br />M &#8211; Has a great warrior as a companion and partner, who is a king of a lost kingdom (Lan) <br />G &#8211; Has a great warrior as a companion and partner, who is also a king of a lost kingdom (Aragorn)<br /><br />M &#8211; Her aforementioned companion bears a legendary (heron mark) sword<br />G &#8211; His aforementioned companion bears a legendary (Narsil) sword<br /><br />M &#8211; Fell in a battle of mutual destruction to a horrific monster that is really of the same race (Lanfear, human female turned Mega-Harridan)<br />G &#8211; Fell in a battle of mutual destruction to a horrific monster that is really of the same race (a Balrog, considered to be one of the twisted Maiar; Gandalf is also thought to be of the Maiar)<br /><br />M &#8211; It is assumed that she will return from &#8216;death&#8217;<br />G &#8211; Did return from &#8216;death&#8217;<br /><br />M &#8211; Known for roaming far and abroad, trying to forestall the plan of the Ultimate Evil (the DO)<br />G &#8211; Known for roaming far and abroad, trying to forestall the plan of the Ultimate Evil (Sauron)<br /><br />M &#8211; Seriously annoyed a character (Nyn.) because of  her relationship with the Warrior/King companion (Lan)<br />G &#8211; Seriously annoyed a character (Boromir) because of his relationship with the Warrior/King companion (Aragorn)<br /><br />M &#8211; Frequently went to do battle or carry out missions in the Wastelands (the Blight)<br />G &#8211; Frequently ventured into the Wastelands on missions (Mordor, Emyn Muil)<br /><br />M &#8211; Wore ankle-length dresses<br />G &#8211; Wore ankle-length robes<br /><br />M &#8211; Annoyingly implacable and bitingly sarcastic to her companions<br />G &#8211; Annoyingly implacable and bitingly sarcastic to his companions <br /><br />M &#8211; Slept around in a bout of shocking impropriety with a powerful magical figure of the opposite sex (Logain)<br />G &#8211; slept around in a bout of shocking impropriety with a powerful magical figure of the opposite sex (Galadriel)<br />(okay, this one&#8217;s just a goof to see if you&#8217;re paying attention!)<br /><br />And Lastly:<br />You never see the two of them together, hmmmm???<br /><br /></p><p><b>Vercingetorix says:</b> I would just like to point out that Lan's blade is NOT heron-marked.  That is Rand's blade.  Otherwise, this is an, *ahem*, exceptional theory.  Really.</p><p><b>Lauriana Sedai says:</b> I like it, but that last one was WAY out there (see- we admins really do read the theories before we post/delete them!).  Moiraine would certainly sniff at the idea of sleeping with a False Dragon, and as far as Gandalf and Galadriel- ick!  And you're right- you never do see them together, kind of like Mike and Pento... hmmm....<br /><br /><br /> </p>


created: 2002-04-06 19:44:22
subject: How the series must end....
body:
<p>This has been touched on before, but I believe my version of this theory (that EITHER  this age is not special at all and is one age in infinite, OR that Rand will allow the DO to be released from his prison and break the Wheel) is the most convincing. So, read and decide...<br /><br />What is Tarmon Gaidon, exactly? Or, more specifically, is there a Tarmon Gaidon for every rotation of the Wheel, or will it be the Battle to End All Battles? In the beginning of the first book  Ishmael says, &quot;...This war has not lasted ten years, but since the beginning of time. You and I have fought a thousand battles with the turning of the Wheel, a thousand times a thousand, and we will fight until time dies and the Shadow is triumphant!... It is not done between us. It will not be done until the end of time.&quot;  Does &quot;the end of time&quot; mean after Tarmon Gaidon, at which point Rand &amp; Ishy's battles will be &quot;done&quot; or....<br /><br />Or is this whole series of books just one episode in a never-ending cycle? Just when my mind grasps one answer, the other ruins it. Since it's obvious (?) that the books will end with Tarmon Gaidon, will this be the event at which point &quot;time ends&quot; and the cyclic turning of the wheel ends with it? One would think that it _has_ to be, otherwise we're just reading about one Age in one turning of the Wheel that has been repeated before and will occur again. There has to be something different about this specific Age in this specific turning RJ chose to write about, doesn't there? Otherwise there's nothing to look forward to; our heroes will win and the bore will somehow be completely sealed by Rand, only to have meddling Aes Sedai in the second age one revolution of the Wheel later to mess up, counterstroke again, etc. Why keep reading?<br /><br />Yet seems that there is a Tarmon Gaidon at the end of every third Age in a turning of the Wheel. There's an Age of Legends in each rotation of the Wheel (RJ quote: What is/was the Age of Legends _will_ repeat eventually, but not until the Wheel turns considerably further) in which the Dragon (LTT in this turning of the Wheel) seals the prison that was punctured (thanks Lanfear), a third Age in which the Dragon Reborn (a guy named Rand this time around) is reincarnated and then fights in Tarmon Gaidon, and a fourth Age after that... (where the prophesies/histories of the Karath. Cycle come from) until you get to our time now (RJ quote: Time is a wheel. If you look in one direction, you are looking at the past. If you just turn around and look in the other direction, you are looking at the future. The books are set in our future _and_ in our past, depending on which way you look) until you eventually get back to the AOL, etc. ad infinum.<br /><br />It also seems to me that, since there seems to be a Tarmon Gaidon at the end of every third Age (how else would people be able to write the K. Cycle about it in the fourth Age for Rand to read later?) something unique and different must occur at this one if we are to get more out of all of these books than a glimpse of a random third Age in an infinite turning of this Wheel. As Ishmael says, time must &quot;end&quot; if we are to hope for anything more than a fleeting glimpse of the ever-turning Wheel. How is this to happen?<br /><br />Let's ask RJ ourselves:<br /><br />&quot;Given that time is cyclic, you must assume that there is a time when the prison that holds the Dark One is whole and unbroken. There is a time when a hole is drilled into that prison and it is thus open to that degree. And there is a time when the opening has been patched in a makeshift manner. But following this line, the cyclic nature of time means that we have at some time in the future inevitably a whole and unbroken prison again. Unless, of course, the Dark One breaks free, in which case all bets are off -- kick over the table and run for the window.&quot;<br /><br />RJ also seems to admire civilizations that think of time in a linear fashion: (from CNN http://asia.cnn.com/COMMUNITY/transcripts/2000/12/12/jordan/index.html &quot;Many older cultures believe that time is cyclic, that it repeats. In fact, I believe the best thing the ancient Greeks gave us was (the idea) that time was linear and change was possible.&quot;<br /><br />I see it one of two ways: either we are just reading something that will happen over and over and over again for forever after our books end, or Rand will in fact allow the Dark One to be freed from his prison, breaking the wheel entirely and ending the whole freakin thing for better or worse. He's obviously willing to risk the whole planet on an educated hunch (Choedan Kal anyone?). It's either that, or pass off the Dragon label to the next poor sap, only to have the whole thing repeat infinitely.<br /><br />Perhaps, Fel may have meant just this when he suggested to Rand to &quot;clear the rubble before you can rebuild.&quot; Certainly reason enough for him to be assassinated. I'd like to think that Rand isn't content with somehow shoving the Dark One back into the bottle for the rest of history to have to deal with...<br /><br />PS Except for the CNN one, The RJ quotes come from Thus Spoke The Creator http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Stargate/8513/creator.htm</p><p><b>Lauriana Sedai says:</b> I&#8217;m no Ishy, and philosophy isn't really my bag.  Basically, if Fel was right and the whole process of patching and re-opening the Dark One's prison is not only <i>going</i> to repeat infinitely, but <i>must</i>, according to the creator's plan, then we are left with a problem.  Namely, the fact that none of our precious characters are <i>really</i> so special and unique as we'd like them to be.  Not to get too psychological here, but this just sounds like the basic human condition: our personal achievements and individual lives seem vastly more important to us than they will to the zillions of other life-forms that co-exist with us and those that will come after us.  Kind of bleak and depressing, but hey- that's life.<br /><br /><br /><br /> </p>


created: 2002-04-08 00:52:59
subject: Asmodean's Killer Confirmed
body:
<p>Please look over at the CNN chat transcript in the articles section of this site. You'll notice a question regarding the death of Asmodean that is not answered by a &quot;Read And Find Out.&quot;<br /><br />It is as follows:<br /><br />&quot;Question from Vercingetorix: Why do you think everyone has a hard time figuring out who killed Asmodean? Graendal killed him. <br /><br />Robert Jordan: I don't know why people have a hard time figuring that out. To me it seems intuitively obvious even to the most casual observer. The reason I won't tell people though is that I am enjoying watching them squirm entirely too much. It's probably bad for me.&quot;<br /><br />Catch that? Look closely:<br /><br />Q: &quot;... Graendal killed him.&quot;<br />A: &quot;I don't know why people have a hard time figuring -that- out.&quot; (emphasis mine)<br /><br />That looks to me like a confirmation that Graendal's the one who offed Asmodean.</p><p><b>Vercingetorix says:</b> *Sigh*  I am posting this theory because I am <i><b>tired</b></i> of having to explain about this quote.  Okay, first off, if you take a look at Robert Jordan's words here, it doesn't say he is referring to the second statement, so you cannot say he is confirming it.  He is merely stating that he doesn't understand why people have a hard time figuring out who killed Asmodean, not referring to my statement that Graendal killed him.  This is just general semantics.  <i><b>Also</b></i>, this is an <i><b>edited</b></i> version of the quote.  I originally started that second statement with &quot;Note: Graendal killed him.&quot;  So clearly, Robert Jordan is not confirming that Graendal killed Asmodean(even though she did<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />), but that he finds it confusing why people find the murderer's identity confusing.  I had actually submitted about 15 different questions that night, and this was the worst question of all of them, because I couldn't think of anymore at that point.  So of course they chose this one.  So anyway, you are wrong, because I was there and I know what he said.  Everyone got that?  I do not want to have to repeat myself, yet again.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /> </p>


created: 2002-04-08 11:53:00
subject: Of Ogier and Stedding
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<p><b>Part 1 - The Ogier</b><br /><br />It is becoming increasingly obvious that the Ogier are going to leave the <i>stedding</i> and be an active part of the world leading up to Tarmon Gai'don.  Now why have the Ogier retreated from the world and returned to the <i>stedding</i>?  The answer to this is that the Ogier are sensitive to things that others are not.  It was noted in The Dragon Reborn that in both Tear and Illian that Loial sensed something was wrong, as did the Ogier stone masons.  What was common about both of these cities was the fact that there were male Forsaken there.  We know there is a direct link between the male Forsaken and the Dark One.  We also know that even though they did not use it they could access the True Power.<br /><br />So what changed during the Breaking that forced the Ogier to be bound to the <i>stedding</i>?  It can only be the taint on <i>saidin</i>.  Obviously the taint (a product of the True Power) seeps into the Ogier in some fashion, and they need time in <i>stedding</i> to remove it from their systems before it causes permanent damage.   It is extremely likely that now the taint is gone from <i>saidin</i> that the Ogier will be able to leave the <i>stedding</i> without the longing overcoming them.<br /><br /><b>Part 2 - <i>stedding</i></b><br /><br />It was theorized in Part 1 that the Ogier are sensitive to the True Power and are forced to the <i>stedding</i> to preserve their health.  Therefore the <i>stedding</i> not only provide protection from the One Power, but the True Power as well, and cannot be entered from <i>Tel'aran'rhiod</i>.  Now why would a region that prevented channeling exist, what would be the purpose?<br /><br />The reason for <i>stedding</i> is that they are locations of previous bores into the Dark One's prison.  (No I haven't gone insane <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> ).<br /><br />Consider that the focal points for the seal were made with the indestructible <i>cuendillar</i>, but those seals have been weakened.  Now the One Power only strengthens <i>cuendillar</i> (how they know an indestructible substance got harder/stronger I'll never know), so it is reasonable to assume that only the opposite (the True Power) could weaken the seals.<br /><br />So the seal that will be put on the Dark One's prison will require protection.  The only regions that we know that could provide this kind of protection are <i>stedding</i> and (possibly) Far Madding.<br /><br />This would fit in well with the whole light/dark theme that Robert Jordan has in this series.  The Aiel went from abhorring violence to being the most violent of all peoples.  The Dragon went from being saviour to feared and reviled.  It only makes sense that evil Shayol Ghul would become a peaceful <i>stedding</i>.<br /><br />It is my belief that the new seal to be put on the Dark One's prison is essentially like a One Power concrete.  If you attack a concrete shortly after casting with salts and the likes it will be very weak and crumble.  However if you let it cure properly you can then apply the same salts with little or no effect to the concrete.  So the seal placed by Lews Therin Telamon was unprotected and enabled the Dark One to attack it early and weaken them to the point we see today.  However the new seal will be protected by the creation of a &quot;Channel Free Zone&quot; or <i>stedding</i> and be given time to properly harden so that the new seal will be be as hard as the original prison.<br /><br />Now at this point in time you are thinking okay so eventually the whole world gets covered over by <i>stedding</i> and the wheel is broken.  Not so, this is taken care of every time there is a new breaking.  The madness of the men channeling cause great eruptions and folding of the land, such that the land changes shape.  It is possible that the land gets folded in such a manner that a <i>stedding</i> may disappear all together.<br /><br />So to summarize:<br /><br />1) Ogier are sensitive to the True Power.<br /><br />2) Now that <i>saidin</i> has been cleansed the Ogier will no longer be tied to the <i>stedding</i>.<br /><br />3) <i>Stedding</i> are locations of previous bores into the Dark One's prison.</p><p><b>Vercingetorix says:</b> Well, this is certainly an interesting theory, but I have a few things I want to point out.  I don't think you can say that &quot;Obviously the taint seeps into the Ogier&quot; without even considering the other possibility for the explanation of the longing.  And that is simply that the Ogier were just away from the <i>stedding</i> for a very long time, which caused them to get the Longing.  Also, it has been stated that once the taint is cleaned from <i>saidin</i> that nothing is healed, only that further madness/corruption is halted.  This may very well be the same with the Ogier Longing, so it is certainly possible that the Longing remains.  Also note that Shayol Ghul was originally a resort island in a cool sea.  Certainly the change there is reflected with the overall theme of good/peaceful to evil/violent better than Shayol Ghul changing to a <i>stedding</i>.  Certainly an interesting theory though.  Comments anyone?<br /><br /><br /> </p>


created: 2002-04-08 22:32:40
subject: Olver - Gaidal Cain
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<p>While I will not try to list the already proposed abundant reasons why one would think that Olver is Gaidal Cain, I do have some input. <br /><br />The biggest problem with the Olver-Gaidal Cain theory that I have seen is that Olver would have already been born when we see Gaidal in Tel&#8217;aran&#8217;rhiod. <br /><br />However, as I started re-reading EotW, I came along the following passage from Thom in the chapter,&quot;Shadow's Waiting&quot;:<br /><br />&quot;The dead can be reborn, or take a living body, and it is not something to speak of lightly.&quot;<br /><br />According to this quote by Thom, Gaidal Cain could have taken Olver's body. While it does not give concrete evidence, this does set up the possibility for Olver to be Cain.</p><p><b>StoneDogAiel says:</b> I like it. I think that this is the first time I have heard anybody address that particular fact. I think that the reason he took a living body is to try to catch up to Birgitte and fix the temporal discontinuity.<br /><br /><br /> </p>


created: 2002-04-10 19:56:08
subject: Zaida and Talaan are Darkfriends!
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<p>Think about it... Zaida is intent on making sure this really low ranking girl, Talaan, can learn tricks *against* Nynaeve.<br /><br />Now while I have argued in the past that Zaida is not Mesaana (which she <i>isn't</i>), that doesn't mean that she isn't a darkfriend in general.  I think that Talaan is a darkfriend (reason will come later), but because she is so low-ranking, Zaida, a Wavemistress, is needed to help.<br /><br />Talaan has proven herself to be untrustworthy, and IMHO a darkfriend.  Way back when the Aes Sedai in Ebou Dar were moving the Kin and the Atha'an Miere away to the farm, Avienda made a gateway for everyone.  As she did so she saw a man (which we know is Moridin) in a window above the street.  Aviendha then asks an Atha'an Miere girl, <i>Talaan</i>, to tell Elayne and Nynaeve and warn them about this guy watching.  A little while later, we find out that Talaan DID NOT give the warning.  As I saw in someone's comments on another black board, &quot;we have previous examples of incompetence being the mark of a darkfriend. Danelle, for example, seemed incompetent to Siuan Sanche for hiring too many masons. Some readers have suggested Weiramon as being a darkfriend, he has also proved himself incompetent.&quot;  <br /><br />The second point against Talaan is that she wanted to go <i>with</i> Nynaeve when she was leaving Caemlyn... that is, she wanted to stay as close to Nynaeve as possible.  This seems rather strange--yes she had an excuse, that she wanted to be Aes Sedai--but that could easily be a lie in order to keep tabs and be with Nynaeve for her master.  To me, these are both strong marks in favor of Talaan being a darkfriend.<br /><br />But now, <i>who</i> would put them to this?<br /><br />Well the obvious answer would be Moghedien, but I in fact think it was Moridin.  I think that when Moghedien was put in a mind trap, Moridin learned of everything--especially of Nynaeve's abilities.  He then knew of the A.S. in Ebou Dar (remember that he and Moggy were there) and sent Zaida, Talaan and their entourage along.  So when Talaan sees Moridin, she obivously sees her master in the window.  And this way, we can see why it would be so important for Talaan and Zaida to not only practice with Nynaeve all the time, but also simply why Talaan should learn these skills <i>against</i> Nynaeve (something Moggy couldn't do).</p><p><b>Burr says:</b> I like the idea that the Dark will have its fair share of the newfound channeling strength.  Also, since we know Wavemistress Harine to be a &quot;good guy&quot; (and the eventual Mistress of the Ships), it makes good duality for Zaida to be a Darkfriend.  I do wonder if just one act of incompetence is enough to condemn Talaan, though.  The good characters have done plenty of incompetent things as well, in my opinion.<br /><br /><br /> </p>


created: 2002-04-11 21:04:26
subject: Untouchable Blacksmiths
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<p>Ok I'm going to keep this short and to the point.<br /><br />Leave it to Robert Jordan to drop a clue and then not act on it for a few thousand pages.<br />Early in the series, Rand is being quizzed by Aviendha regarding what he has learned from her about Aiel culture.  She explains that blacksmiths are not to be taken Gai'shain because they are considered the same as Wise Ones and children; that is, essentially untouchable.  She never explains why, though. <br /><br />Now fast-forward to Winter's Heart.  Perrin is desperate to rescue Faile from the Shaido.  He is a blacksmith and, therefore, according to the Aiel culture he is untouchable.  <br />Hypothetically, he could walk into Sevanna's camp and take Faile back without a battle.  If Sevanna (who we know believes that it's time to change the Aiel culture) tries to hurt him and is found out, it will cut to the core of all that is Aiel.  We will probably see her downfall brought about in the same chapter (likely by Therava and her other &#8216;loyal&#8217; Wise Ones).<br /><br />I am going to have to share the credit or the blame with my wife for this theory.</p><p><b>Lauriana Sedai says:</b> That's a really neat idea, and I had never even considered the connection, but I do remember that Jordan seemed to make a point of mentioning the blacksmith issue, but never explaining the 'why' of it (quick quiz: Who knows why it is that when one takes a silver-smith Gai&#8217;shain, one must let her work one day for herself for every day that she serves?  Hmmm?). I do think that more of the Shaido than just Sevanna seem to have abandoned the traditional Aiel values, so I think that she would have at least a few supporters if she did want to attack Perrin in some way.  I'd love to see it end up that simply, though. It would make so many people furious, heh-heh-heh...<br /><br /><br /> </p>


created: 2002-04-12 10:53:25
subject: Grand Unified Theory
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<p>My theory is that the Wheel of Time series is modeled after the conflict between Death Row Records and Bad Boy Records.<br /><br />In real life, Tupac Shakur (Death Row Records) was shot in a car with Sug Knight. However, Tupac was not wearing his Kevlar like he usually does, so he died, while Sug lived.<br /><br />Afterwards, while in California promoting his music, Notorious BIG (Bad Boy Records) was shot by a fanatic (this man is still shrowded in mystery, much the same as Padan Fain).<br /><br />Therefore, based on this, there will be TWO major deaths.<br /><br />As Notorious BIG was credited as being the best rapper in history, I tend to equate him with Rand al'Thor. Tupac, the man who used to be friends with Biggy, could possibly be Galad.<br /><br />So, to make it easier:<br /><br />1) Rand al'Thor will be slain in some mode of transportation (as Biggy was), and his successor will be Logain (Puff Daddy).<br /><br />2) Galad will be killed, because DR records was very brutal, and Tupac was trying to get away from them, much like what Galad will do.<br /><br />3) Padan Fain is the one that kills Galad (the mysterious fanatic, remember?).<br /><br />4) The Dark One (Britney Spears) will bring about a new era of terror and destruction (boy-bands).</p><p><b>Raserei says:</b> Holy canoli! It all makes sense! In Crazy-Land!<br /><br /><br /> </p>


created: 2002-04-13 00:32:59
subject: The Nature of Balefire and Reincarnation
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<p>Just a warning, this is a long, multi-part argument, so be warned.<br /><br />I was thinking about the nature of balefire last night, and I thought of something that might be of interest to the Wotmania community.  When balefire is used on a living being, that person&#8217;s thread is burned out of the pattern.  This destruction is so radical, that not even the Dark One can retrieve that thread.  I had always assumed that the soul was completely destroyed when hit with balefire.  However, I am not so sure that this is the case.  Scientific theory indicates that there is a finite amount of matter and energy in the universe.  We can assume that this applies to all aspects of Creation, such as souls.  So, when a soul is blasted with balefire it is not just destroyed, since matter and energy cannot be wiped out of existence.  The soul must be reduced to some other form of energy (since souls are not matter, or else we could take one out of our bodies and throw them at passing cars).  What happens to this energy?<br /><br />	Let us, for a moment, leave the question of what happens to soul energy (good band name) when it is balefired to deal with a slightly different topic.  What effect does balefire have on the pattern as a whole?  We know that balefire is capable of destroying the pattern, since it can unravel the threads that make up the pattern.  However, what I am referring to is how the pattern is affected with each turning of the Wheel.  If balefire was capable of totally destroying a soul, or of destroying its component energy, then how would this affect the Wheel the next time it turns around?  There is a finite amount of building material for Creation, so there must be a finite amount of energy set aside for souls.  If this is the case, humanity would eventually be wiped out, since balefire would continue to be used in each turning, and the number of souls would decrease in each turning.  We know that tens of thousands of people were annihilated with balefire in the Age of Legends, and if this happens in every turning, then it would only be a matter of time before there were no human souls.  Since the turnings of the Wheel appear to be infinite to some degree, this cannot be the case.  There must be some way for this soul energy to be reformed into complete souls.<br /><br />	Now, let us look at some theories on reincarnation.  Reincarnation is a given in the series since without it we wouldn&#8217;t have Rand, Moridin, Cyndane, or any of those other wacky characters, so I won&#8217;t bother to explain the concept.  What I will do is look at the nature of reincarnation.  There are two theories about how souls are reincarnated.  The first is the one we are all familiar with: A person dies and that person&#8217;s soul is put into a new body at some point.  In this theory, the soul remains the same, it is only the body that changes.  This appears to be the standard way that reincarnation works in the Wheel of Time.  There is another theory though.  When a person dies, that person&#8217;s soul energy dissipates, to join in a cosmic cloud of soul energy (my terminology).  When a person is born and a soul is needed, parts of this cosmic cloud are taken to form a new soul.  This new soul may have parts of many other older souls.  Think of it like a glass of water and a pitcher.  The water in the glass is a soul, and the pitcher is the cosmic cloud.  When a person dies, the water in the glass is poured into the pitcher, mingling with the water in the pitcher.  When a person is born, water from the pitcher is poured into the glass.  This new glass of water may contain molecules of water from the old glass, but it also contains other particles of water.<br /><br />	Now, to tie this all together, soul energy cannot be destroyed (otherwise, the world would be empty of humanity after a few turnings).  Soul energy can be dissipated though.  Reincarnation of a complete soul from life to life appears to be the norm, but there is the possibility that dissipated soul energy can be turned into new souls.  Do you see where I am going?  When a soul is balefired, it is broken down into a formless mass of soul energy.  As the Wheel turns, this cosmic cloud of soul energy is drawn upon to create new souls to replace those that have been balefired.  I think this explains why the Dark One cannot retrieve the souls of those who have died due to balefire.  These souls are no longer complete; they are without form.  Also, the breaking down of the souls into soul energy would seem to destroy the connection that the soul had with the Dark One, which might be how the Dark One retrieves these souls (kinda like a dark bungee cord).  This last point might also explain why Asmodean was not brought back, besides being a traitor and all.  This is probably not an issue that will be addressed in the books, but I thought it might provoke some interesting conversation.<br /></p><p><b>Jeordam says:</b> Is a soul really energy? Or could it perhaps be something that is outside of reality as we know it?  Is creation finite, when the Creator isn't?  Could the Creator not work outside of the limits of the creation that was made at his own hand?<br /><br />Very interesting theory, and one that I find very thought provoking as well...and I'm not even White Ajah!<br /><br /><br /> </p>


created: 2002-04-14 15:58:24
subject: Moghedien, Sammael and the great 'cache' of Ebou Dar
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<p><b> Intro </b><br /><br />This is my 3rd draft of this theory and it is about the bowl of the Kin's cache in Ebou Dar and how it was located.  Basically, as you all know, there was a 3-way race to find the cache.  The first person to learn of the cache was Moghedien.  We learned from the Epilogue of LoC that Moggy sent Falion down to Ebou Dar well before she was captured.  We don't know who learned of the cache next, but it was either Elayne and Nynaeve or Sammael.  A big and troubling problem arises, however, when you ask the question:  <b> How did Sammael and Moghedien each learn of the cache?</b>  This question is the premise of my theory.  At the end of this theory, I will make a list of likely suspects. <b> This theory points heavily towards darkfriend Kin members.</b><br /><br />On the surface, the answer appears simple.  But when delved, this subject is quite complex.    Therefore, brace yourself for a long theory.    At the end of this theory I have proposed a whole list of suspects in the order of greatest to least likelihood.               <br /> <br /><b> Background info </b><br /><br />Let's begin with what we know:<br /><br />       In LoC in A Pile of Sand, Elayne and Nynaeve confront 3 Aes Sedai (Morvrin, Carlinya, and Sheriam) about the Bowl of the Winds- <br /><br />&quot;and out tumbled the story of their trip to Ebou Dar and finding the bowl ter'angreal. Not in proper order, and not mentioning the Tower, but all the essential points were there.&quot;<br /><br />No specific mention of other ter'angreal is made. The Bowl is clearly the focus. However, they did mention something about the other 'essential points.'  So it is quite possible they mentioned something about other ter'angreal as well.   <br /><br />The 3 Aes Sedai were Sheriam, Morvrin, and Carlinya.  Sheriam warded the room, so there is no possibility of eavesdroppers.  As far as we know none of these sisters are black (although Sheriam is a suspect, and I will elaborate on this later).  Interestingly, Sheriam comments, &quot;We will send a letter to Merilille.&quot;   Later in the chapter we see a comment by Sheriam, &quot;There are ears where we least expect them.&quot;<br /> <br /> Nynaeve and Elayne's affair with the 3 sisters is very private, and the 3 sisters are all concerned about secrecy.  As far as we know, they told nobody about the ter'angreal stash.  As far as we know, they did not even address the hall about this issue.  The only possible thing that they could have done was to send a letter to Merilille.<br /> <br /> Yet 8 chapters later, with no other POV's from the Salidar camp, we see that Sammael has already learned of the ter'angreal stash.  In To Understand a Message, Sammael says, &quot;I all but have my hands on a cache of angreal and who can say what else.&quot;<br /><br /> Where did Sammael learn of this stash from?  I find it interesting that Sammael doesn't first mention the cache until after Nynaeve and Elayne located the Kin's keep.  This suggests that Sammael did not learn of the cache until after Nynaeve and Elayne located it.  <br /><br />However, there is an important point to analyze in Sammael's semantics; Sammael did not mention ter'angreals or the bowl ter'angreal.  His quote was about 'a cache of angreals and who can say what else.' As I said before, the focus of Elayne and Nynaeve's conversation with the 3 Aes Sedai was about the Bowl of the Winds.  But we don't know for sure whether they mentioned anything about the rest of the cache or not.  Thus it could be that Sammael learned of the bowl from other means than Elayne and Nynaeve (which is also likely, because Moghedien learned of the Bowl through her own means).<br /> <br /> Of course, Elayne was well aware that there were angreal.  In 'Under the Dust' she said, 'it (bowl of winds) isn't the only ter'angreal in this room.  I think there are angreal, too, maybe even sa'angreal.?   Elayne also most likely mentioned something about the angreal to the 3 sisters.   Elayne thought this issue was extremely important (especially to Rand), and that is why they used need in the first place.  The Aes Sedai were also in a desperate position (still unsure of whether to re-unite with the Elaida ).  Nynaeve and Elayne were also desperate to convince the sisters to send them to Ebou Dar, and a flourish about an angreal cache would not have hurt their argument.  From Elayne's POV we also see, 'I know a cache of ter'angreal and angreal has to be put in the right hands.  It's our duty to hand them over to the Hall.  To Sheriam,  anyway.'  So, by this quote, it seems likely that Elayne may have mentioned something about angreal to the sisters.  It is important to know precisely what Elayne and Nynaeve said to the sisters, because one of the sisters may have been the leak to Sammael.<br /> <br /> <br /><b> Analysis </b> <br /><br />  There are two different branches of analysis we can use here, both with several sub-branches.  I will briefly look at both branches.  The first branch is that Sammael learned of the ter'angreal stash through his own means.  In this branch, I will also examine how Moghedien may have learned of the cache.  The second branch is that Sammael learned of the stash through the Aes Sedai camp.   <br /><br /> <b> 1. Sammael and Moghedien learned of the cache through their own means </b><br /><br /><i> a.   Darkfriend Kin members told them about the cache </i>- This is an extremely likely possibility.  Only a few of the leading Kin members seemed to actually know of the cache- for example, Falion was in the Kin briefly, but she didn't know about the stash.  Although Elayne and Nynaeve don't suspect any of the Kin in the Ispan and Adeleas murders, it does not mean that none of the Kin are black. <br /> <br />However, none of the Kin leaders such as Reanne and Alis who knew of the location of the stash are black.  If a Kin member who knew about the stash was black, then Sammael/Moghedien would not have had to wait for Elayne and Nynaeve to arrive physically at the cache, before they could begin looting.  Moggy/Sammy would have immediately known where the cache was and would have looted it right away.   <br /><br />What this suggests (assuming that they learned of the cache from a darkfriend Kin member) is that there are 3 categories of knowledge about the cache in the Kin.  Most of the Kin probably didn't know about the cache's existence (as in Falion's case who didn't think the cache existed).  A few of the Kin with some power probably knew about the cache but not where it was located.   Finally, the very top Kin leaders knew about both the cache and its location.  Therefore, if Sammael/Moggy learned about the cache from a Kin member, it was from someone who knew about the cache, but not where the cache was.  So it is quite likely that one of the 800+ members of the Kin is a darkfriend and leaked info about the cache to either Moghedien or Sammael, or both.    <br /><br /><i> b.   The cache was leaked through Aes Sedai who knew of the cache </i>- While the Kin was no secret to the Aes Sedai, it seems unlikely that the Aes Sedai knew of the cache.  Otherwise, the Aes Sedai most likely would have tried to retrieve it a long time ago.  We know how much Aes Sedai treasure objects of power.        <br /><br /><i> c.  They learned of cache by using need </i>- This also seems unlikely.  First, the need has to be truly genuine.  Most forsaken have very selfish motives for finding their angreal.  Secondly, need is obviously not easy to perform.  Otherwise, all of the forsaken would have their own angreals by now.  Third, If Moggy or Sammael had found the cache through using need, they probably would have been able to easily re-find the cache in the physical world.<br /><br />My logic for this is that Nynaeve and Elayne didn't know the limitations of need, that need could only be used for the same object once.  Thus, they didn't spend very much time in making a mental map of trying to re-find the cache. A forsaken, however, would know the limatations of need, and would be smart enough to make a strong enough mental map so that they could easily locate the cache in the flesh.  Therefore, I dont think that even a powerful dreamer, such as Moghedien learned of the cache through dreamworld.<br /><br /><i> d.  Sammael (Moghedien does not qualify for this statement) learned of the cache by spying on the girls, or by using a spy in Dreamworld </i>-  We have definitely seen spies in Dreamworld, but we have seen no evidence of Sammael using Dreamworld to spy.   Although there is no mention of spies while the girls were searching, we cannot rule out this possibility.  Sammael may have overhead part of Elayne and Nynaeve's conversation about the cache in dreamworld.  <br /><br /> <b> 2.  Sammael learned of the cache through spies in the Aes Sedai camp </b><br /><br /><i>a.  Morvrin, Carlinya </i>-  We have no evidence that Morvrin or Carlinya are black.  They would be the least likely of the suspects.<br /><br /><i> b.  Sheriam </i>- It is quite possible that Sheriam may have told Sammael directly-  We have seen several suspicious events happen around Sheriam (gray man, torture scene).  Sheriam is high on the list of suspects.  Although Sheriam may be black, she does not appear to be one of Sammaels agents.  My main proof for this statement is we saw Sheriam get beaten up in PoD. At this point, Sammael was dead.  Therefore, if Sheriam is BA, she is an agent of another Forsaken besides Sammael.   I am not ruling out the possibility that she could be an agent of two forsaken, but I am saying that I don't think it is all that likely.  The only other sister we have seen who has worked for more than one forsaken is Aliviarin.  <br /><br /><i>c.  Merilille </i>- A letter was sent to Merilille to inform her of the Bowl of Winds (and probably the cache).  As we know, Merilille is also a suspect in the murders of Adeleas and Ispan.  Could this be another addition to that theory?  However, Merilille does not appear to be a very strong suspect- we have seen no outward evidence of Merilille being black.<br /><br /><i> d. A spy overheard Nynaeve/Elayne and their conversation </i>- A very unlikely possibility.  At the end of 'Under the Dust' when Nynaeve/Elayne were discussing the cache back in non-dream Salidar, they did not mention Ebou Dar.  However, a spy could have overheard their conversation at another point in time.  <br /><br /><b> Results and Discussion </b><br /><br />You have arrived at the final part of my theory.  In this section, I am going to analyze the most likely suspects.  I am going to look at the list of suspects from 3 perspectives, from the perspectives of Moggy, Sammael, and both Moggy and Sammael together.  It is possible that both Sammael and Moghedien learned of the cache from the same source.  <br /><br /><b>Question One-  How did Moghedien learn of the cache?</b><br /><br />There are only 2 probable answers here.  However, the most likely way that Moghedien learned of the cache is through a darkfriend Kin member.  The other possibility, although I don?t think it is likely, is that Moghedien learned of the Kin through dreamworld.  As I mentioned above, Moggy most likely did not learn of the cache by using 'need.'  <i>Thus, Moggy probably learned of the stash through the Kin.</i> <br /><br /><b> Question Two-  How did Sammael learn of cache? </b><br /><br /> Sammael had quite a few more options than Moghedien.  There are four possibilities here.  The first is that Sammael learned of the stash through a darkfriend Kin member.  This option is quite reasonable.<br /><br />The second is that Sammael learned of the cache through a black Aes Sedai.  This option is less likely than the Kin.  As I mentioned before, we have no reason to suspect Morvrin, or Carlinya as a darkfriend.    Merilille is still a suspect in the Ispan/Adealeas murders, but we have seen no suspicious behavior from her.<br /><br />We have good reason to suspect Sheriam, but as I mentioned earlier, if Sheriam is black (and there is still reasonable doubt of this) she is already an agent of another Forsaken.  She could be an agent for two forsaken, but why would she tell Sammael about the stash and not her tell her other boss?<br /><br />The third option is that Sammael learned of the cache through Nynaeve and Elayne.  This is a possibility.  However, we have never seen Sammael in dreamworld, and he would have had to be almost ta'veren to be in dreamworld at the same place and time as Elayne and Nynaeve.  <br /><br />The fourth option is that Sammael learned of the cache in dreamworld by using a technique similar to Need.  As mentioned in Moggy's case, this option is not likely. <br /><br /><i> Therefore, I think that Sammael probably also learned of the cache through darkfriend members in the Kin.</i><br /><br /><br /><b> Question three- How do the suspects from Sammael and Moghedien's list correspond?</b><br /><br />There are two points of convergence between Sammael and Moghedien:  darkfriend Kin members, and need techniques in dreamworld.  <br /><br />The need technique is not the likely.  But it is quite possible that both Sammael and Moghedien both used a darkfriend Kin member, possibily the same one, to find the cache.  Moghedien almost certainly did, and it is also quite likely that Sammael also used a black Kin member.    <br /><br /><b> Conclusion </b><br /><br />In conclusion, Moghedien most likely learned of the cache through a darkfriend Kin member.  It is also quite probable that Sammael learned of the cache through a df Kin member.  However, Sammael could also have learned of the cache through black Aes Sedai, or through Elayne and Nynaeve.<br /><br />With 800+ members, there are undoubtedly, some df Kin people. The existence of df Kin members has some interesting repercussions on other pending theories at this site.  DF Kin members certainly extend to the murder case of Adeleas and Ispan, so don't be quick to disclude them as suspects.</p><p><b>Burr says:</b> I also see darkfriend Kin as a possibility, though not as strong of one as you see it.  However, I'm not quite ready to discount some of the other possibilities just yet.  <br /><br />First, you give Alviarin as the only BA known to have served two Forsaken.  Alviarin is the Keeper of the Chronicles in the Tower just as Sheriam is the Keeper for the Salidar camp, for Egwene no less.  If Alviarin is important enough for two Forsaken, then it seems Sheriam would be as well, if she is a darkfriend.<br /><br />Second, you completely discount the other two Aes Sedai in that meeting because there is no external evidence showing that they are darkfriends.  But can't the same be said for the hypothetical Kin darkfriend?  At least with the two Aes Sedai we have <i>real</i> suspects instead of hypothetical ones.  As compared to a member of the Kin who may be a darkfriend and may know of the cache, we have two Aes Sedai, one of which may be a darkfriend and who <i>certainly</i> knows of the cache.<br /><br />Anyhow, as you say, there probably are darkfriends in the Kin; if so, the culprit is probably one of them that we have seen before.  It might be well to keep an eye out.<br /><br /><br /> </p>


created: 2002-04-14 20:02:53
subject: Elayne's Children will be Heroes of the Horn
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<p>At this point we can assume that Elayne will give birth to a set of twins: one boy and one girl.  My theory is that these twins will be the reincarnations of Shivan and Calian, the masked brother and sister who are said to herald the end of an Age.<br /><br />We are definitely coming to the end of an Age in the storyline of the books.  Shivan and Calian will have to show up very soon.  It's unclear whether just their births will be enough to end the Age, or if they have to be old enough to do something.  Either way, if Olver can be Gaidal Cain (just speculation, of course), then unborn babies can become heroes as well!<br /><br />He-he-he, maybe by the time Mat tries to blow the Horn of Valere again there will be no more Heroes waiting in Tel'aran'rhiod to answer the call because they'll all have been reborn!<br /></p><p><b>Lauriana Sedai says:</b> I'd like to see some of the other heroes come into the story before the horn is blown again, and this would be a nice way to bring it about. Don't know about that last part, though... <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /> </p>


created: 2002-04-16 20:38:10
subject: Unraveling the mystery of 'Spinning Earthfire'
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<p>The guide tells of three lost talents with intriguing and mysterious names:  Spinning Earthfire, Milking Tears, and Aligning the Matrix.  It is common knowledge that &#8220;Aligning the Matrix&#8221; involves creating ter&#8217;angreals.  And most of us are still mystified by the talent of &#8220;Milking tears&#8221;.  However, during my reread of PoD, I think I may have discovered the true meaning of &#8220;Spinning Earthfire.&#8221; <br /><br /> Apparently the talent of &#8220;Spinning Earthfire&#8221; has not yet been completely lost.  The Seanchan damane still apparently know of its use.<br /><br />In PoD, &#8220;Threads,&#8221; we see the Chulein say, &#8220;I&#8217;ll use my share (of money from capturing female channelers) to buy a damane and hire a sul&#8217;dam.  A damane trained to make Sky Lights.  When I leave the sky, I&#8217;ll be as rich as one of the Blood.&#8221;<br /><br />Directly after this, she thinks, &#8220;They had something called &#8216;fireworks&#8217; here- she had seen some fellows vainly trying to interest the Blood in Tanchico- but who would watch such a pitiful thing compared to the Sky Lights?  Those fellows had been bundled out and dumped in the road outside the city.&#8221;<br /><br />Now, some of you might be thinking that this all fine and well.  We see the fire, but where is the earth?<br /><br />Well, the answer is as simple as Chemistry 101.  The colors produced by fireworks are heavily dependent on the various earth metal powders placed inside the firework.  Here is a quote from the fireworks listing in the New World encyclopedia:<br /><br />&#8220;Manufacturers add small amounts of special chemicals to the gunpowder to create colors.  They add sodium compounds to produce yellow, strontium compounds for red, and copper and barium compounds for blue and green.  Charcoal is another substance that can be added.  It gives the rocket a sparkling, flaming tail.&#8221;<br /><br />So we see that in order for fireworks to be as dazzling as they are, both earth metals and fire are needed.  Hence, we get the name &#8220;Earthfire.&#8221;  The Spinning part comes from the actual design and pattern of the weaves by the channeler.  Voila:  &#8220;Spinning Earthfire.&#8221;<br /><br />In conclusion, I would like to add one more note.  From the Guide, we know that the AoL was a very peaceful time.  Violence was virtually unknown.  We also know that most of the lost talents are remnants of the AoL, lost in the Breaking.  Therefore, it makes sense that most of the lost talents are not talents of war and destruction, but rather talents of healing and of civilization.  From this perspective, it makes sense that &#8220;Spinning Earthfire&#8221; is about fireworks, and not about some lost talent of war.</p><p><b>Burr says:</b> If the Seanchan still use the weave, why don't they still use the name?  We could say that they lost the weave and then rediscovered it, but why would Jordan write the story that way when he could have otherwise produced a gasp of surprise when the Seanchan casually mentioned the lost weave?<br /><br /><br /> </p>


created: 2002-04-17 13:31:31
subject: Mat, Bayle Domon, Tuon, and Tremalking
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<p>I was thinking about what options Mat really has as he flees from Ebou Dar, and it occurred to me that there are not many.  I don't think the whole story about Bayle Domon and Egeanin getting a ship would have been built up if Mat were <i>not</i> going to escape on a ship, and so I think he and his party will indeed make it out of Ebou Dar by sea, one way or another.<br /><br />The problem is this: if Tuon is discovered missing early on, the Seanchan may be looking for ships leaving Ebou Dar, and perhaps especially for ships heading east, toward Dragon-held lands.  Even if the Seanchan are <i>not</i> looking, I think it will occur to Mat and Domon and company that heading east would be a mistake, what with faster ships, not to mention raken and tor'raken, to contend with.<br /><br />So I think they will have to head west, and they may be unwilling to dock in Seanchan-held lands.  I realize there are good reasons why they <i>might</i> choose to dock in Seanchan-held lands -- for instance, Tuon may promise everyone immunity -- but there's another possibility.<br /><br />I think Bayle Domon may suggest, and the others agree, that taking temporary refuge on the island of Tremalking would be the best plan.  It makes a lot of sense.  The Seanchan don't hold it.  It is something of an enigma to everyone I think, and it would be a very good place to hide out for a while or plan a next move.<br /><br />So it's just a guess, but I think Mat and Tuon are going to end up on Tremalking.  I think the Jendai Prophecy is going to have something to do with them, or at least with Mat, or with whatever happens with everyone there.  <br /><br />I also think something in the events on Tremalking will lead to Mat and Tuon's marriage.  <br /><br />Just to make it interesting, there may even be the first hint of the need to rescue Moiraine -- maybe.  BIG maybe!  There are definitely other ways that could happen.  But the presence of a Twisted Doorway on Tremalking could not only be very interesting, and lead to Moiraine's rescue, but would also allow the whole crew to escape Tremalking through the world of the Aelfinn and re-emerge at the Tower of Genji further north.<br /><br />That last part is just my imagination at work, but I do think Tremalking is a definite possibility.<br /><br />-OA</p><p><b>Burr says:</b> But I want them to rescue Moiraine <i>now</i>!  Not after they go play with the Oompa Loompas on Tremalking!  *curses the unfairness of it all*<br /><br /><br /> </p>


created: 2002-04-19 15:54:08
subject: Cadsuane caught in a lie.
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<p>I've been a loyal fan of wotmania for a long time now, and the Theory post had been my favorite section. I've read almost all the theories in the Theory Post, but this is my first attempt at writing one. (If someone has already caught this then my apologies)<br /><br />My &quot;theory&quot; isn't really a theory at all, more just something I noticed while re-reading WH. In the Chapter &quot;Wonderful News&quot; we see a meeting between Cadsuane and Harine din Togara and her Sailmistress. The meeting is becoming rather annoying for Cadsuane and on pg. 346 this is how she ends the meeting:<br /><br />&quot;Escort these two to their rooms,&quot; Cadsuane commanded. &quot;They wish to fast and meditate on civility.&quot;<br /><br />Now it is obvious that Cadsuane knew that they wished no such thing. Yet she states as FACT that they do wish it. Hence she is not bound by at least 1 of the 3 oaths. <br /><br />I don&#8217;t think this means she is Black Ajah because of some of the thoughts she has about the BA later in the chapter, but that&#8217;s a separate theory.<br /><br />I do ask everyone to carefully read this section before telling me I'm wrong =)<br /><br /></p><p><b>Burr says:</b> Well, I've got to disagree with your conclusion, if only because I don't believe Cadsuane would break an Oath so casually and obviously.  To  me, her statement does not sound like she meant it to be taken literally.  However, the quote does seem to meet the technical definition of a lie, unlike previously quoted statements by Verin and Moiraine (i.e., &quot;Moiraine sent me,&quot; and &quot;You may call me Alys,&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />.<br /><br />Rather, I take this as evidence that the Oath conforms to the Aes Sedais' definition of untruth.  So far, that definition seems to require both technical untruth <i>and</i> an intention to deceive.  Cadsuane's statement, while technically untrue, was not intended to deceive.  Verin's and Moiraine's statements, while intended to deceive, were not technically untrue.<br /><br />OTOH, you could be right.<br /><br /><br /> </p>


created: 2002-04-22 13:04:11
subject: Demandred's Possible Identity
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<p>So far, we've only had a few clues on Demandred's location and the identity of his alter ego. And here are all the clues I could find that could hint at who Demandred is posing as.<br /><br />1. Demandred's looks: Graendal's comments to herself in the introduction of Lord of Chaos that Demandred is hawk-nosed, good looking, but not enough to make women's hearts race. Demandred is also a little bit shorter than Rand. With these looks, Demandred could easily fit in with Saldeans. The most prominent features of Saldeans seem to be their large noses.<br /><br />2. Previous Occupation: In the last chapter of Winter's Heart, we find out than Demandred was a soldier but unused to face-to-face combat with enemies. Upon arriving at Shadar Logoth, a gateway explodes right after Demandred goes through it, which he says he expected since he was a soldier. However, when he&#8217;s confronted with an Asha'man and two Aes Sedai, he tells himself that he's a great general, and generals don't have to fight in battles. He'd have an easy time fitting into an army (like Bashere's) or a warrior society (like the Aiel). <br /><br />3. Close to Rand: Graendal comments in Winter's Heart that Demandred's supposed to be keeping an eye on Rand, but all he's been doing is hoping to blunder into Rand. I think that Demandred is posing as someone important enough to meet Rand and run into him from time to time, but not important enough to meet with him frequently. So I think Demandred is most likely an officer of some sort. If Demandred were a general or a secretary, he'd be able to see Rand frequently without raising suspicion. And he wouldn't be hoping just to blunder into Rand. I think this also rules out Demandred being a servant, because servants can be anywhere in the palace near Rand, anytime, and no one would notice. Remember Silvie, the old woman in the Stone of Tear that Egwene talks to the first time she enters <i>Tel'aran'rhiod</i>? (Ch 27 of The Dragon Reborn) Silve says that no one sees a servant, and servants are in the best position to spy on the people they're serving. Graendal's comment also rules out Demandred posing as a noble. The nobles in the series seem to think they're important enough to demand an audience at will, and Demandred wouldn't have to wait to run into Rand.<br /><br />4. Current location: Demandred's in Caemlyn!! Demandred spies on Elayne in <i>Tel'aran'rhiod</i>, and makes a gateway out of <i>Tel'aran'rhiod</i>. (Lord of Chaos; last page of Ch 7) Up to now, it seems when someone who is in <i>Tel'aran'rhiod</i> in the flesh makes a gateway out of <i>Tel'aran'rhiod</i>, they arrive in the same spot in the waking world. (When Egwene went to Salidar, she had to go to Salidar in <i>Tel'aran'rhiod</i> to get there.) The only people in Caemlyn at the time are Bashere's army of Saldeans, local Andorans, and Rand's Aiel. Since Demandred is in Caemlyn, we can figure out when he started spying on Rand: Demandred had to have met Rand after Rand left Tear for the Aiel Waste. The only people that came with Rand from Cairhien to Caemlyn are the Aiel. Demandred had to have met Rand either in the Waste or in Caemlyn. Demandred has to be in one of the above groups in order to be spying on Rand. <br /><br />5. Demandred hasn't met Min: She can tell on site if a person can channel or not because she gets a mass of visions every time she sees one. So if Min has met Demandred, then she would be able to tell if he could channel. When she got there, she read everyone that Rand met. I think if Min met a Forsaken, she would know that they were out to get Rand, but she's never had a viewing that a man would hurt Rand. I think Rand's met Demandred before Min got to Caemlyn. Min's visions have nothing to do with the One Power, and, so far, no one is able to shield themselves from Min's viewings. If Demandred knew about Min's viewings, he would probably try to stay as far away from her as possible. If he doesn't know about the viewings, and met Min, she would see his auras and other stuff, and know that something wasn't quite right about him. This also explains why Demandred probably isn't posing as an Andoran. Rand met with all the Andoran nobles in the presence of Min, and she didn't see any channelers among them. And Min was roaming through the palace for half of the book. She would have seen most of the people in the palace (including servants, visitors, and advisors), but she never mentioned seeing an Aes Sedai-like viewing around any Andoran. <br /><br />6. Groups he could be in - Aiel or the Saldean army: Demandred is a character that we have seen in Caemlyn in Lord of Chaos. He's someone who arrived in Caemlyn around the same time that Rand did. The two groups that came at the same time were Rand's Aiel, and Bashere with his Saldean army. I don't think he's posing as an Aiel. I think that a Forsaken would have a very hard time posing as an Aiel. The Aiel are way too close knit as a society, and they seem to all know each other. I think that some Aiel would notice if a new person suddenly appeared. There's no Aiel leader who hasn't been known to others for a long time. Also, Rand is only medium height for an Aiel. Since Demandred is shorter than Rand, he'd be short for an Aiel, and that'd bring attention to him. Demandred likes to do things through proxies, so he seems that he doesn't like to bring attention to himself.<br /><br />7. Demandred's posing as a Saldean in the army: I think Demandred is probably a Saldean; his hawk-nosed profile fits the description of Saldean, and it's easier for him not to use mask of mirrors if he doesn't have to (Demandred doesn't seem like he'd take the risk of someone discovering it). He's also probably an officer; an officer would be able to bump into someone randomly. <br /><br />8. Conclusion: Demandred is posing as Tumad Ahzkan. So far, there's one person who fits this description: Tumad Ahzkan (a Saldean who tells Bashere about Taim and escorts Taim to Bashere). He's a minor character, just like Anath (Semirhage). The evidence of this is:<br />-Lews Therin Telamon rants and raves about the forsaken when Tumad came into the room, and when he returned with Taim (it seems that Lews Therin Telamon is ranting about Taim, but Lews Therin Telamon starts his ranting before seeing Taim and after seeing Tumad)<br /><br />-The description of each character is similar: Tumad's a head taller than Bashere. That would make Tumad a tall guy. Since he's Saldean, he's probably got a hooked nose. And Tumad's in an army. Demandred's mentioned that he's been a soldier, and Tumad is a soldier of some kind.<br /><br />-Tumad's the only one who escorts Taim in Bashere's tent who's named. There were a few other guys that helped bring Taim in, but none of them were named. When Tumad comes in to tell Bashere about Taim, there's no need for Robert Jordan to mention his name at all unless Tumad's important to the plot in some way. Also, Rand's probably met quite a few people since arriving in Caemlyn. Why would Rand remember this guy (and his last name!)? But, if Lews Therin Telamon recognizes him in some way, the recognition might have passed on to Rand. (Rand doesn't have many of Lews Therin Telamon's memories at this point, and I don't think he knows what the Forsaken look like yet.)<br /></p><p><b>Vercingetorix says:</b> Wow.  Now THIS is what I call an original theory!  Good job!  My only comment at the moment is that Rand has been able to picture some of the Forsaken before he met them, Sammael for example.  So, Tumadred is born.  What does everyone else think?<br /><br /><br /> </p>


created: 2002-04-24 12:15:32
subject: Twelve Aes Sedai
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<p>In the prologue to The Path of Daggers, we found that thirteen Aes Sedai were accompyaning the Borderlands armies - Coladara, adviser to King Paitar of Arafel, seven Aes Sedai who are her &quot;visitors&quot;, and five Aes Sedai who found Tenobia before she left Saldaea, led by an Aes Sedai called Ileisien. The question is, what were those Aes Sedai doing in the Borderlands? <br /><br />In The Shadow Rising Siuan got a message announcing that Mazrim Taim had escaped, and two sisters had died. She decided to send twelve sisters after him, along with two hundred of the Tower Guard with orders that he be gentled on capture. These sisters have not been heard from since. I say that the twelve sisters with the Borderland army (apart from Paitar's advisor) are those same twelve. It is unlikely to be coincidence. They probably hope to influence the Borderland rulers' actions. There are, however, questions to be answered. One - what happened to the Tower Guards with them? Two - what of the sisters who were holding Taim captive, where did they go? Three - which side are they on? <br /><br />It has been six months in between Siuan deciding to send them and the Borderlanders meeting in the prologue to The Path of Daggers. This is, however, a reasonable gap given the sisters had to be chosen, sent, ride to the Borderlands, and come back slowly with the Borderlanders. The question of the Tower Guard remains unanswered - maybe they deserted? Who knows? It is probable that the sisters who had held Taim captive may have returned to the Tower, but there is also no real answer to this. I think that the twelve/thirteen sisters are waiting to see who wins - returning might not be a good idea as they were sent out by Siuan Sanche. Roughly a third of all Aes Sedai are doing the same. <br />The real question, of course, is whether the sisters are still planning to attack their original target - Taim. It seems unlikely that they have told the Borderland rulers that, as when Tenobia complained about Bashere and Taim she made no mention of them, so they may just be going along with the Borderlanders' plan...presumably to contact the Dragon Reborn, but with two hundred thousand soldiers...who knows?</p><p><b>Burr says:</b> If Siuan Sanche sent them, I'd guess at least a majority of them are on the side of the Light.  I don't think Siuan would trust such a mission to anyone she suspected of being Black Ajah, especially not when she'd want to keep a sharp eye on anyone she <i>does</i> suspect.  Of course, that doesn't necessarily mean they will on the side of Salidar or Rand.  But if they have any ulterior motives to advising the Borderlanders, I think you are right that Taim would have something to do with it, at least if they are the same Aes Sedai that Siuan sent.<br /><br /><br /> </p>


created: 2002-04-24 12:22:56
subject: Mattin Stepaneos is in Tar Valon
body:
<p><b> Where is Mattin Stepaneos, former King of Illian?</b><br /><br />Rand asked this question to the Council of Nine when they offered him the Crown of Swords.<br /><br /><i>&quot;King Mattin did disappear two days ago,</i>&quot; Gregorin replied.  <i>&quot;We do fear Lord Brend may have something to do with it.  Brend did have a great deal of influence with the king, some might say too much, but he did be distracted in recent months, and Mattin had begun to reassert himself.&quot;</i> (ACoS, 'A Crown of Swords.')<br /><br /><b>Most people think that Mattin is dead, that Sammael toasted him.  I wish to offer a different possibility for two reasons.</b><br /><br /><u>1.  Mattin Stepaneos was known to be a great general, and among the top 5 greatest living generals.</u>  He was captured once before by the Whitecloaks and then ransomed back to the Council of Nine.  Thus, he is no stranger to kidnappings.  A man with his history does not go down easily.<br /><br /><u>2.  RJ is a veteran at making characters disappear and then reappear at another time.</u> Look at Jain Farstrider, look at what is doing with Moiraine. In the The Guide, it says &quot;the whereabouts of Mattin Stepaneos are not known, nor, despite rumors even whether he is alive.&quot;  RJ has clearly left a huge opening for Mattin to return.<br /><br /><u>3. Elaida intended to kidnap the king.</u><br /><br />From Mesaana, we see Elaida had plans to kidnap Stepaneos:<br /><br /><i>&quot;Will she(Elaida)succeed in having the King of Illian and the Queen of Saldea kidnapped?&quot;</i> (ACoS, 'Lightnings')<br /><br /><u>4. Egwene heard a rumor that Mattin was kidnapped.</u><br /> <br />In PoD, 'Unexpected Absences,' Egwene hears two rumors about what happened to the former king: <br /><br /><i>&quot;A printer in Illian asserted that he had proof Rand had killed Mattin Stepaneous with his own hands and estroyed the body with the One Power, while a laborer on the docks there claimed she had seen the former King carried, bound and gagged and rolled in a rug, aboard a ship that had sailed in the night with the blessings of the captain of the Port Watch.&quot;</i><br /><br />Obviously, we know that Stepaneos was not killed by Rand.  However, The 2nd option, that he was kidnapped is quite likely.  It dovetails perfectly with Elaida's plans.  The details also match with Aes Sedai's work.  For example, the ship had the blessings of the Port Watch.  Who better to get the blessings than an Aes Sedai?  It is absolutely probable that Elaida would have kidnapped Mattin.  Especially, in the view that she already tried to kidnap Rand, and that she also had plans to kidnap Tenobia.  <br /><br /><b>Conclusion</b><br /><br />Mattin Stepaneos is not dead.  He has been kidnapped by Elaida.  Everything in the books point in this direction.  Therefore, expect to see him sometime soon, especially now that the tower conflict is escalating.</p><p><b>Burr says:</b> The way you put it, it sounds obvious.  However, I remember when everyone seemed sure that Graendal was controlling this particular great general.  Of course, I suppose the two theories aren't exactly contradictory.  Maybe some of the blackboard experts can help us out...<br /><br /><br /> </p>


created: 2002-04-24 12:48:22
subject: Traveling
body:
<p>I believe that a person can Travel (capital T, using the One Power) from a point that he/she knows well to anywhere (even if he/she doesn't know the destination well). I am more inclined to the belief that a person can Travel <i>to</i> a person or a thing or a purpose (take your pick) rather than to a place.  I am not sure but I am under the impression that most of us here believe that Traveling requires that you know well both the starting point and the destination. <br /><br />I added several quotes that I stumbled upon reading Lord of Chaos and a quick reference to The Fires of Heaven and A Crown of Swords.<br /><br /><i>&quot;In any case, Traveling required that you know your starting point very well. It seemed more logical to him that you should have to know where you were heading well, but Asmodean seemed to think that that was like asking why air was not water.&quot;</i> <b>The Fires of Heaven, chapter 6 <i>Gateway</i></b><br /><br /><i>&quot;She was hard muscle and soft curves; she glistened damply from head to feet. He had never imagined that her legs were so long. 'I thought you would remain longer at the bridge. I . . .' Her voice rose in pitch; her eyes widened in panic. 'I did not arrange for you to see me! I must get away from you. As far away as I can! I must!'<br />	Suddenly a shimmering vertical line appeared in the air near her. It widened, as if rotating, into a gateway. Icy wind rushed through it into the room, carrying thick curtains of snow.<br />	'I must get away!' she wailed, and darted through into the blizzard.&quot;</i><b>The Fires of Heaven, chapter 31 <i>The Far Snows</i></b><br /><br />Here, Aviendha doesn't know where she went only where she came from.<br /><br /><i>&quot;A moment later, a slash of light appeared not twenty paces from him, slicing through several men and a horse like a huge razor as it widened into a gateway. A black-coated man with a sword jumped out of it, and went down with a Shaido spear through his middle, but a moment later eight or nine more sprang through as the gateway vanished, forming a circle around the fallen man with their swords. With more than swords.&quot; </i> <b>Lord of Chaos, chapter 55 <i>Dumai's Wells</i></b><br /><br />Here the Ashaman can't possibly know where exactly Rand is at that very time but they probably know where they came from (from the Black Tower, I assume). And after this, they can&#8217;t make a gateway immediately because it takes time to know the terrain more. <br /><br /><i>&quot;It had been the small hours of morning when a slash of light suddenly appeared in his room in The Golden Stag. He had thrown himself desperately across the four-posted bed, one boot on and one half off, pulling the knife he wore hanging between his shoulder blades before he realized it was Rand, stepping out of one of those bloody holes in nothing, apparently from the palace in Caemlyn by the columns visible before the opening winked out. It was startling, him coming in the middle of the night, without any Aiel, and popping right into Mat's room, which last still made the hair on Mat's neck stand up.&quot;</i> <b>Lord of Chaos, chapter 5 <i>A Different Dance</i></b><br /><br />Here Rand wouldn't know where Mat is exactly. Provided he knows Mat is in Maerone, Rand wouldn&#8217;t know that Mat stayed in the Golden Stag, much less, his room.<br /><br /><i>&#8220;He had a different destination than the palace in mind, but Traveling required you to know the place you left from even better than the place you were going.&#8221; </i> <b>Lord of Chaos, <i>Lessons and Teachers</i></b><br /><br />This is Rand&#8217;s point of view and happened after he was bonded by Alanna and decided to go to the Farm and warn the Ashaman.<br /><br />And the best quote comes from Graendal&#8217;s point of view; <br /><br /><i>&#8220;And she had not wanted to risk anyone being able to draw a line from Sammael to her. Yes, she must increase the pace of her own plans, and distance herself from Sammael's disaster.<br /><br />Abruptly a vertical slash of silver appeared at the far end of the room, bright against the tapestries hanging between the heavy gilded mirrors, and a crystalline chime rang loud. Her eyebrows rose in surprise. Someone remembered the courtesies of a more civilized Age, it seemed&#8230;.<br /><br />&#8230;The gateway opened, and two women in nearly identical red-and-black silk dresses stepped through warily. At least, Moghedien moved cautiously, dark eyes flickering in search of traps, hands smoothing her wide skirts; the gateway winked out after a moment, but she held on to saidar&#8221;</i><br /><br /><b> A Crown of Swords, chapter 12 <i>New Alliances</i></b><br /><br />Now, how would Moghedien and Cyndane know where to find Graendal when Graendal is in Sammael&#8217;s place and &#8220;<i>distancing herself from Sammael&#8217;s disaster&#8221;</i> They probably know  that Graendal is connected to Sammael but how did they know that she was in that exact place at that exact  time?<br /><br />If this is true, then this explains how the Forsaken meet each other, they Travel <b>to</b> each other not to each other&#8217;s place.<br /><br />Oh, remember Mat's remark about Traveling?<br /><i>&quot;That thing could have sliced him in two had he been standing in the wrong place&quot;</i> <b>Lord of Chaos, chapter 5 <i>A Different Dance</i></b><br /><br />Well, he doesn't have to worry about that because unless someone wants to do it on purpose, like what Sammael did to that poor servant of Graendal, <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/frown.gif" border="0" /> he is as safe as if he had been cradled in his mother's arms. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /></p><p><b>Vercingetorix says:</b> I completely agree with this.  It certainly makes sense and would explain a lot of cicumstances, particularly Dumai's Wells.  Nice job.<br /><br /><br /> </p>


created: 2002-04-25 13:44:14
subject: The Order of the Ages
body:
<p>Why do we assume that our world fits into the WOT as the first age? Is it because the AOL is referred to as the second age and that is so obviously just one tiny step above ours? I am not attempting an essay on human nature here however.<br /><br />Close to the beginning of every book Jordan writes &quot;In one age, called the Third Age by some...&quot; This is the only point in ANY of the books that the age we are reading about is referred to as the Third Age in the narrative perspective&#8230;and it is only called that by some.<br /><br />At the beginning of each book we are thrown a loop, be it directly or otherwise, by Jordan. The second paragraph of every book we assume &quot;This is how it is, let's get to the juicy stuff&quot;. Yet we overlook an OPINION in the NARRATIVE. Three words...[called][by some]. What can this mean?<br /><br />Logically speaking, this is not the Third Age. More likely it is the Fifth or Sixth. Three things in the series as well as the white book point directly to this. <br /><br />1) The skeleton on display within the Panarch's palace in Tanchico. The description of it (TSR, Egwene's POV, pgs 144 and 146) sounds nothing like a dragon as some have claimed. Rather it sounds like some tusked creature, a mammoth given the &quot;great age&quot; description of it. If it is indeed a mammoth then it lends credence to our age being that before the AOL. It also suggests that the fossils of earlier creatures would be either too far buried or demineralized to be found in this time. <br /><br />2) The somewhat repeated statements in both the series and the white book that the population is declining in both numbers and channeling ability. As far as the latter is concerned, yes it is declining. The fewer the people = the fewer the people who make up the percentage of channelers.<br /><br />3) The Land of Madmen. Described by the Sea Folk on page 150 of the white book. To summarize, it is populated by primitive people who exist in a tribal social structure.<br /><br />Point one suggests that there were creatures that are now extinct at some time or another. Possibly even dinosaurs.<br /><br />Points two and three obviously point to mankind itself being in a state of decline. Point three so casually shown as to surely suggest this.<br /><br />To summarize we are witnessing the decline of mankind. Tarmon'Gaidon is indeed the last battle. It is the last battle faught against the DO before mankind itself fades to myth. The logical order of ages could be something like this...<br /><br />1. Age of dinosaurs. Big lizards who weren't too bright. Most likely ending in a cosmic event. <br />2. Post dinos. There are mostly mammals now. Mankind makes his appearance towards the end during the most recent &quot;Ice Age&quot;.<br />3. Genesis. Mankind is spreading. Civilization begins. However that is washed away when all that aforementioned ice melts. Thank you Noah for your foresight. <br />4. Our time. We dream of ways to do things great with minimal work, hence our technology and rudimentary belief in magic. <br />5.AOL. Begins with the discovery of magic (channeling). Great things are done in this age. We know how this one ends.<br />6. Randland. Mankind is slowly fading away. Most likely it will end with the DO being sealed away and, as a consequence of that, the OP as well. <br />7. Post-Randland. Mankind struggles to maintain what it has. However, due to the lack of technology and channeling, it is destroyed by a cosmic event or a planet-wide rebellion by nature.</p><p><b>Burr says:</b> Well, I think point three stretches the facts a bit.  First, we don't really know if the &quot;madmen&quot; are truly primitive.  For instance, if they happen to have any competent channelers, then I would say they aren't &quot;primitive&quot; no matter what their societal structure or physical technologies.  Second, the existance of primitive society can't possibly be taken as proof of societal decline, especially if the only apparent primitive society is on an island cut off from the rest of civilization.  History as we know it in the real world has had its ups <i>and</i> its downs, and there have been primitive societies all the way through.  Finally, if we look only from the Breaking onward, it rather seems that WoT society is rising.<br /><br /><br /> </p>


created: 2002-04-25 21:13:33
subject: Noal Charin and his connections to Graendal
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<p><b>Introduction</b><br /><br /><i>My theory is that Noal Charin is currently under the control of Graendal.</i>  I am not suggesting that Noal is a darkfriend, rather I am suggesting that Charin is under compulsion.  I have four main points to support my theory.  <br /><br /><b>Note </b><br /> <br />I am not assuming Noal Charin is Jain Farstrider.  Please note that all the points in this theory are valid for Noal Charin being just Noal Charin.  All the points work (except for the second of half of my fourth point) even if it turns out that Charin is not Jain Farstrider.   However, if one wants more information about the connection between Noal Charin and Jain Farstrider, check out Ruhira Sedai's FAQ on this site. <br /><br /><b>Point 1: Graendal's 'lean old man'</b><br /><br />In the prologue of The Fires of Heaven we see a glimpse of Graendal's palace: <i>&quot;a lean old man in a wrinkled coat sat disconsolately among the performers.&quot;</i>  Clearly, this old man who is wearing a wrinkled coat is very different from Graendal's usual collection of pretties and fancy noble people.  Since all of Graendal's pets have a use to Graendal in some way, this old man must have some sort of prominence or skills to counterbalance his unsightly appearance. <br /><br />The identity of this old man is believed to be Noal Charin.  From 'White Plumes' (A Crown of Swords), Noal Charin is described to be <i>&quot;a scrawny, white-haired fellow... his stooped shoulders and weathered face did not fit his fine gray coat...the old man tapped a gnarled finger against the side of his beak of a nose. Both looked to have been broken several times.&quot;</i><br /><br />Charin obviously seen quite a bit of the world and is quite talented at the work he does.  For example, Charin is a highly accomplsihed spy, he is very resourceful (as in finding Mat and helping him out with Tuon and the gholam), and he always seems to be in the right place at the right time. Graendal obviously needs talented field agents such as Charin.  And if Charin turns out to be Jain Farstrider, it gives even more explanation for why Graendal would want Noal around.  <br /><br /><b>Point 2:  The Shara connection</b><br /> <br />So we a see a resemblance in their age, but physically there is little else to connect the two men.  I would like to suggest another connection: Shara.<br /><br />In 'Threads Woven of Shadow'(Lord of Chaos), one book after we saw Graendal's 'lean old man,' we see Graendal say to Sammael: <br /><br /><i>&quot;My newest acquisitions from the lands beyond Aiel Waste (Shara)... Chiape was Sh'boan a sort of Empress, newly widowed and Shaofan was to marry her and become Sh'botai. For seven years she would have ruled absolutely, then died. Whereupon he would have chosen a new Sh'boan and ruled absolutely until his death in seven years...&quot;</i><br /><br />Clearly, Graendal was up to something in Shara.  It has been suggested that Graendal's kidnapping of Chiape and Shafoan, the two most powerful people in Shara, even led to the reported fighting in Shara.<br /><br />But let's get back to the point.  In Winter's Heart, 'News in a Cloth Sack,' we see that Charin <i>&quot;told stories before going to sleep... about a place called Shibouya, supposedly beyond the Aiel Waste, where women who could channel had tattooed faces, over three hundred crimes carried the penalty of death...&quot;</i> <br /><br />So we see that both Charin and Graendal have a connection to Shara.  It is quite possible that Charin may have even been  Graendal's primary source of intelligence on Shara.  It is quite important to note that Graendal's 'lean old man' and Graendal's quotes on Shara occurred right around the same period of time in the Wheel of Time.  Therefore, there may be a connection.  <br /><br /><b>Point 3:  Graendal, Charin, and the cache of Ebou Dar</b><br /><br />In A Crown of Swords, we see a little more of Charin.  Charin was seen both outside Carridin's palace, and outside the houses where Falion and Ispan stayed.  Clearly, Charin was spying.  And since both Carridin and Falion were looking for the cache, it is within reason to suggest that Charin also was looking for information on this cache.<br /><br />In To Understand a Message (Lord of Chaos), Sammael said to Graendal, <i>&quot;I all but have my hands on a cache of angreal and who can say what else.&quot;</i>  Therefore, Graendal knew of this cache and most likely sent spies with instructions to watch Sammael's agents and to find out more about the cache.  It is highly possible that Charin was one of Graendal's spies sent to learn about the cache. <br /><br />Please note that I am not suggesting that Charin is a darkfriend. Most of Graendal's pets are not darkfriendss, they are merely under heavy compulsion.  Obviously, Charin has a flair of adventure (who else would go to Shara) and some talent at being in the right place at the right time (helping Mat with the gholam, kidnapping Tuon, etc.) Graendal knew of Charin's talents, and she used them accordingly.<br /><br /><b>Point 4:  Noal Charin and Compulsion</b><br /><br />Let's answer the question a little more clearly about Charin's involvement with Graendal.  <br /><br />Could Charin be under compulsion?  Examine Noal's point of view from 'The Triumph of Logic' (A Crown of Swords):<br /><br /><i>&quot;Suddenly he realized he was touching his head again. He did not have a headache, but his head felt 'peculiar' sometimes. Most often he thought of what he could not remember... once again he pulled his hand down from his head. Sooner or later, he would remember. He did not have much time left, but it was all he did have. He remembered that much.&quot;</i> <br /><br />Clearly, Noal is having some memory problems.  His problems are also somewhat unnatural and 'peculiar.'  Charin seems to have some sort of task assigned to him, but he can't remember what it is.  All he knows, is that he doesn?t have much time.  Although it cannot be proven conclusively, Noal's point of view suggests the use of compulsion.<br /><br />If it pans out that Noal Charin really is Jain Farstrider, then it means that Noal has most likely been under compulsion before: by Ishmael.  <br /><br />In 'Against the Shadow'(The Eye of the World) we see Ishmael tell Rand, <i>&quot;Jain Farstrider, a hero... whom I painted like a fool and sent to the Ogier thinking he was free of me&quot;</i><br /><br />This quote by Ishmael implies that Jain Farstrider was under some sort of compulsion, especially when seen in the light of Loial's quote in 'Remembrance of Dreams' (The Eye of the World): <br /><br /><i>'There was a man (Farstrider) came to Stedding Shangtai a little while back... what you humans call the Aiel War. He was at the point of death, although there was no wound or mark on him. The Elders thought it might be something Aes Sedai had done, since as soon as he was within the stedding he quickly got well. A few months. One night he left without a word to anyone, simply sneaked away when the moon was down. Before he left, he told a curious tale which he said he meant to carry to Tar Valon. He said the Dark One intended to blind the Eye of the World, and slay the Great Serpent, kill time itself&quot;</i> <br /><br />The Ogier Elders thought that Farstrider had been affected by the power somehow.  This means that Ishmael used the power, most likely some form of compulsion, on Farstrider.  If Ishmael used the power on Farstrider, then it follows that Graendal might do the same.   <br /><br />The last question I want to address is this: 'How did Graendal gain control of Noal Charin?  If Noal really is Farstrider, then it means that Noal was once under the control of Ishmael.    <br /><br />So, why is Noal suddenly with Graendal?<br /><br />The answer is quite simple.  Graendal could have claimed Charin after Ishmael died in The Dragon Reborn. Many of the Forsaken scrambled to steal Ishmael's network after he died.  For example, Mesaana claimed control of Aliviarin and the black Ajah and Sammael claimed control of Carridin.  Therefore, it is no leap in logic to suggest that Graendal gained control Charin shortly after Ishmael died.<br /><br /><b>Conclusion</b><br /><br />There are several connections which suggest an association between Noal Charin and Graendal:<br /><br />1.  The physical similarities between Graendal's 'lean old man' and Noal Charin.<br /><br />2.  The Shara connection between Charin and Graendal.<br /><br />3.  The fact that Graendal knew that Sammael was looking for a cache of 'angreals,' and the fact that Charin was spying on the two parties that were looking for the cache: Carridin and Falion.<br /><br />4.  The possibility that Charin is under compulsion by someone powerful (Graendal?).<br /><br />Therefore, there are at least four important points that suggest that Charin is under compulsion by Graendal.  If I am right, this spells terrible news for our friend Mat Cauthon.<br /></p><p><b>Vercingetorix says:</b> I always believed Graendal's old man to be Ituralde, one of the great Generals of the world that was last seen in Arad Doman.  But this may be right too, assuming Noal isn't Ituralde, which would just be loony.  She has to have better use for a general than to spy on Sammael.  What do you all think?<br /><br /><br /> </p>


created: 2002-04-25 21:25:45
subject: WoT is our Past...
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<p>...and I have the proof yo. The Dragon is reborn and her name is Charlize Theron (the actor who played Keanu Reeves wife in Devils Advocate). I mean c'mon her last name is THERON! That's only one letter off from THERIN! She's blonde, she destroys all around her (notice how men just lose all sanity in her vicinity), and she's really good at having a crazed look in her eyes.<br /><br />   Oh and I heard from a friends, cousins, roommates, auto-mechanics, chiropractors, aunts, neices, pet groomers, third cousin, (whom happens to be my roommate) that knows a tatoo artist in L.A. who swears on a stack of back issues of Bizarre magazine that he gave Charlize Theron a tatoo of a Unicorn her backside. Let me repeat a UNICORN TATOO! Now what is a unicorn? Why nothing short of the female equivalent of a dragon as far as fantasy animals go. Don't ask me for explanations. If you walk in the light then you know this to be true.<br /><br />   Let's not forget the Ashamon. Now we all know that the Dark Tower Saga is the future of our world. In that time the ashamon will have become Gunslingers. They go through 3 stages. Students, Apprentices, and Gunslingers. The goal that they are taught feverently from training is to get to the Dark Tower (a.k.a. the Black Tower) and make things right. It seems that the struggle for power between the dragon and the M'Hael continues on even into Mid-World.<br /><br />   So the question that's left is where are the ashamon in todays realm. Why they're the M.i.B. of course. Men In Black. J, and K are nothing less than modern day ashamon. The only reason they don't talk about the tower in that documentary that came out a few years back is because that's knowledge that is only privy to initiates, not people watching movies. Don't ask me for explanations. If you walk in the light then you know this to be true.<br /><br />   So where would you find the Aes Sedai you might ask? Nuns of course ya silly nootch. They've had to go into hiding because they know that the Unicorn reborn (the Dragon in female form) is about to taint the female half of the source. By some accounts she may have already done so. In fact that'd explain alot of things.<br /><br />   The White Tower is currently in Pisa Italy and has been rebuilt. However, it is still in danger of falling. Very much in danger, it leans more and more towards the path of the shadow every year. We must unite the Men In Black and the Hiding Aes Sedai to se things right. Then we'll have to find the Black Tower. My first guess on places to look is New Jersy.<br /><br />   The there's the Ogier. Unfortunately they are all but wiped out if not totally gone in Roland of Gileads time. They still live among us today however. Where are they? All around you, they are now known as hippies. C'mon you don't need an explanation, you aren't really surprised anyway are you?<br /><br />   The Amayar became the greeks, The Seanchan became the Japanese, and the Sharans became the Chinese. The Borderlanders became the Irish and the Scottish. The people of the Two Rivers are now known as southerners, with the rest of Andor being called america.<br /><br />   All the shadow spawn are of course lawyers now. The forsaken went into politics. Rahvin took on the name Clinton, Demandred took the name Bush, and Ishamael is known by a more dreaded name, Perot.<br /><br />   The Dark One used his favorite agent Padan Fain (they made nice and buried the grudges after they realized that they were both too cool to die) to spread his Evil in a new way. He went by the name of Walt, this once peddler of the two rivers. Now the Disney Ones empire is ready to strike.<br /><br />   Thom Merrilin has been reborn. People now call him George and he tells Gleeman tales about a galaxy far far away where others battle the dark in the name of the light.<br /><br />   Let us all swear allegiance to the champion of the creator and the light. Let us all swear our oaths to Charlize Theron and hope she doesn't go batty like she once or twice did.<br /><br />   Oh by the way, the Canadians are the descendants of the Aiel. Don't ask me for explanations. If you walk in the light then you know this to be true.</p><p><b>Vercingetorix says:</b> Why didn't I think of that?  It's so obvious.<br /><br /><br /> </p>


created: 2002-04-28 08:37:01
subject: The Lord Martim Cauthin ... A King Reborn?
body:
<p>This Theory is going to try to prove that Mat is actually King Aemon al Caar al Thorin reborn.  Probably the biggest reason people will vote against his theory is the reasoning the reasoning that Aemon didn't do enough to be tied to the Horn as a Hero to be reborn. I personally think that it is not necessary for a person to be tied to the Horn to be tied to the Wheel and reborn.  I take this belief from another belief that the Dragon's soul is not tied to the Horn but rather just to the Wheel because well if the Dragon was tied to the Horn it could only cause more problems then it would solve.  I also believe that lesser heroes such as Aemon can be tied to the Wheel in the same way only to be spun out when they are needed and not to be called when the Horn is blown.  <br /><br />Well on to why Mat is Aemon.<br />1) During Moraine's tale of Aemon in tEotW she tells of Manetheren's fall and Aemon's death, at Emond's field.  Now I'm trying to say is that is easier for someone to be reborn if the body they are reborn in is born at the place of their previous life's death a la LTT to Rand at Dragonmount.<br /><br />2) Min&#8217;s first viewing of Mat includes a red eagle which if Mat is Aemon he would definitely have.<br /><br />3) Next is Mat's first spouting of the old tongue.  While Rand and Perrin use the war cry of &quot;Manetheren&quot; Mat screams &quot;Carai an Caldazar! Carai an Ellisande! Al Ellisande!&quot; (Pg 265 ppb, tEotW, The Caemlyn Road) later Moraine explains that Mat's war cry means &quot;for the honor of the red eagle! For the honor of the rose of the sun! For the rose of the sun!&quot;  She continues to explain saying that this was the war cry of Manetheren namely its last king, Aemon.  <br /><br />4) The three Ta' veren say (in Shadows Waiting, pg 287 ppb, tEotW) that Mat may be Aemon reborn and then Thom interrupts them then tells them that the dead can be reborn or that they could take a living persons body.  This could just be preparation for Rand being LTT reborn but I think it&#8217;s more than that.<br /><br />5) Later in tEotW (The Dark One Stirs, PG 736 ppb) Mat adds more to his war cry.  He adds &quot;Mordero daghain pas duente cuebiyar!&quot;  This means death holds not fear within my heart! This shows that wherever Mat got his old tongue from he knew he was going to die and was not afraid of it.<br /><br />Okay enough from tEotW not to switch gears to tDR<br /><br />6) During the healing Mat shouts &quot;Mia ayende Aes Sedai! Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misian ye! Mia ayende&quot; (Healing, pg 212 ppb, tDR) which Suian translates that &quot;I am free man, Aes Sedai, I am no Aes Sedai meat&quot;. Suian says before translates that she states that she thinks for a moment past and present were one.<br />Mat would have had the same soul in both times otherwise there would never been the slip to the past.<br />This makes mat someone who was at the last battle of Manetheren, knows the old tongue fluently and freely uses Aemon's war cry as if it were his own.  I believe that this points to the King himself and not to some unnamed general. <br /><br />7) Finally is Mat's first ancient memory.  He clearly remembers the final battle of Manetheren, where he commanded the heart guard, what I assume to be Manetheren&#8217;s elitist soldiers. So he would have had to be of extremely high rank in order to lead them.  Mat remembers giving orders and making decisions during this battle which even a high ranking general would not do if the warder/king was on the battlefield.  <br /><br />Lastly I must address the point that if Mat is Aemon and Aemon was a warder how come Mat dislikes Aes Sedai so.  Well there are two reasons for this,  (Healing, pg 214 ppb, tDR) Suian states, &#8220;Who can know the heart of a man? Not even he himself, I suspect.  A man is the easiest animal to put on a leash and the hardest to keep leashed, even if he chooses it himself.&#8221; So answer one is maybe even though he was a warder Aemon wasn&#8217;t too fond of Aes Sedai himself.  Answer two is a question: if your kingdom was destroyed and you, your wife and several thousands of people were killed because Aes Sedai betrayed you wouldn&#8217;t you hate the Aes Sedai for it?<br /><br />Wow that got long fast.  To wrap it up shortly I believe that Mat is Aemon and it will take a lot to convince me otherwise.  Oops forgot to mention Tuon channeling and Mat marrying her and possibly becoming her warder. But that&#8217;s a theory for another time. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br />Thanks <br />Lytjan Morillin<br />King Aemon&#8217;s stable boy reborn<br /></p><p><b>Roonas says:</b> Well ... I like your thought process, and you do have alot worked out here, but the part where he remembers giving orders at the last battle of Manetheren still doesn't sit well with me as proof that he WAS king Aemon.  I definitely will have to go back and read that part again, but from what I remember of it - it didn't give me the impression that it was the King himself.  So basically I will throw this one up to the masses and let them reason out your proof here.<br /><br /><br /> </p>


created: 2002-04-29 17:44:05
subject: Seeing ta'veren does not require channeling
body:
<p>This may have been stated before, and I don't know if it's important, but since you never know what RJ is going to come up with next, I thought I should point it out anyway.<br /><br />We have seen that there are people who are able to see if someone is ta'veren. Two of those people are channelers: <br /><br />The Amyrlin touched the fractured seal, and her voice grew tight, as if she were forcing herself to speak. &quot;I saw the boy, you know, in the courtyard during the Welcome. It is one of my Talents, seeing ta'veren. A rare Talent these days, even more rare than ta'veren, and certainly not of much use.&#8221; (The Great Hunt, Chapter 2: The shadow in Shienar)<br /><br />Siuan Sanche was speaking of Rand here, who we know to be ta'veren. The other channeler who has the Talent to see ta'veren is Nicola, the novice in the Salidar Tower:<br /><br />The young woman's mouth tightened slightly, but she certainly let no irritation into her voice. &quot;He still seems to glow, or shine. I really do see it. I just don't know why.&quot; Anaiya gave her a delighted smile. He's ta'veren, Nicola. You've uncovered your first Talent. You can see ta'veren.(Lord of Chaos, Chapter 38: A Sudden Chill)<br /><br />This implies that seeing ta'veren is a Talent limited to channelers. However, it is not: <br />Alar eyed them each in turn, then settled to a study of Rand. She looked as if she knew things; all the Elders did, but she most of all. &quot;Verin says you are ta'veren, &quot; she said at last, &quot;and I can feel it in you. That I can do so means that you must be very strongly ta'veren indeed, for such Talents ever run weakly in us, if at all. (The Great Hunt, Chapter 36:Among the Elders)<br /><br />The woman speaking here is Alar, an Ogier Elder, who is in stedding Tsofu at the time. Since it is not possible to channel in a stedding, seeing ta'veren does not require channeling. Of course, it could be that Alar is a channeler without knowing because she is in a stedding most of the time and has thus never had the chance to find out, but that seems unlikely.</p><p><b>Burr says:</b> I can't think of any plausible applications for your theory at the moment, but it would be odd for Jordan to put that in there if he didn't mean to use it somehow.  Good observation.<br /><br /><br /> </p>


created: 2002-05-02 02:25:02
subject: Fain, the oneness and Rand......
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<p>Rand can become invisible to Fain by summoning the Void or the Oneness. He doesn't become invisible to Fains eyes but to his awareness of Rand's whereabouts. We know that Fain can feel Rand as a result of his Distilling at SG, and that every day his sense of Rand's whereabouts grow sharper. We know that his sense of Rand creates an itch that can only be scratched by Rand's death. When Rand is surrounded by the Void, Fain is unable to sense him. <br /><br />Qoutes from the books supporting this theory:<br /><br />page 166 tGH, Hardcover. (Rand)&quot;An exhausted sleep finally came, and with sleep, unbidden, the Void surrounded him, flickering with an uneasy glow that disturbed his dreams.&quot; (With Ingtar just after they started out from Fal Dara on Fain's trail). <br /><br />That same night at the EXACT SAME TIME , page 168 tGH Hardcover. (Fain) &quot;Lying there in his blankets, he stared northward. He could not feel al'Thor, now; the distance between them was too great. Or perhaps al'Thor was doing his vanishing trick. Sometimes, in the keep, the boy had suddenley vanished from Fain's senses. He did not know how, but always al'Thor came back, just as suddenley as he had gone. He would come back this time, too.&quot;<br /><br />In Fal Dara Rand practised the sword with Lan. When practising the sword Rand would surround himself with the void, blocking out all emotions and Fain.<br /><br />Later in the book, when Rand and Loial go to steal back the dagger and the Horn (bidden by Lanfear), Rand assumes the Void as he leaves the camp. When he arrives at Fain's camp, he sees that chest containing the Horn and a man (Fain) sleeping only a few feet away. He remarks that no one else sleeps even near to it. He crawls to the Chest...<br /><br />Surrounded by the Void Rand is able to approach Fain's camp undetected.<br /><br />page 245 Hardcover. &quot;His hand touched something else on the lid. The dagger, barebladed. In the dark, his eyes widened. Remembering what it had done to Mat, he jerked back, the Void shifting with his agitation. The man sleeping nearby, no more than two paces from the chest; no one else lay so close by spans - groaned in his sleep and thrashed at his blankets. Rand allowed the Void to sweep thought and fear away. Murmuring uneasily in his sleep, the man stilled.&quot;<br /><br />Rand touches the dagger and loses his control over the Void momentarily. At that moment Fain sturs in his sleep. Rand regains control and Fain falls back to sleep.<br /><br />Rand and Loial then take the chest and Dagger and begin to leave the camp. Fain awakens not the the awareness of Rand, but to the disturbance of the Dagger. <br /><br />page 245 Hardcover (Fain) &quot;The man who had been sleeping near the chest suddenly sat up with a strangled yell, then leaped to his feet. 'It's gone! Wake, you filth! it's gooooonnnnneeeee!' Fain's voice, even in the Void Rand recognised it. The others scrambled errect, darkfriends and Trollocs, calling to know what was happening, growling and snarling. Fain's voice rose to a howl. 'I know it is you, al'Thor! You're hiding from me, but I know you are out there! Find him! Find him! al'Thoooooor!' Men and Trollocs scattered in every direction. <br /><br />Wrapped in emptiness, Rand kept moving. Almost forgotten in entering the camp, saidin pulsed at him.<br /><br />'He cannot see us', Loial whispered low.&quot;<br /><br />Rand was on the edge of the camp and Fain should have been able to point directly to him. In Fal Dara Fain would look at an angle through the stone to where Rand was staying.<br /><br />When Rand returns to the camp, he is afraid and wanted to leave immediatley. Lanfear said no. <br /><br />page 250, Hardcover. (Rand) &quot;Rand shook his head. 'We are too close. Fain seems able to find me, sometimes.'<br /><br />'Seek the Oneness, if you are afraid.' Selene said.&quot; <br /><br />After reading this, it is obvious that Rand can block Fain's awareness of him by summoning the Void. When in the Void, he can block out pain and emotion, Lews Therin and Alanna almost completley, and now we know that he can add Fain to that list.<br /><br />This raises two interesting questions:<br /><br />1) How will this come into play later in the series? Jordan MUST have more than Rand stealing the Dagger planned.<br /><br />2) How did Lanfear know that the Oneness would block out Fain's awareness? She tells Rand that he should assume the Oneness at all times. <br /><br />Can we connect the Oneness with The Gholam? After all, there had to be a way to escape it, since Graendal had a near death experience with one but escaped. There HAD to be a way to escape, and mabye this was it. After all, the Gholam WAS only attracted to Nynaeve and Elayne and was ordered to kill them specifically.</p><p><b>Roonas says:</b> Interesting Theory ... I liked the thought process here, and I also really liked the idea of it being a more important detail (of which I seemed to have passed over more than once) ... <br /><br />Very nice!<br /><br /><br /><br /> </p>


created: 2002-05-03 02:59:09
subject: Loial know the Tinker's song?
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<p>Just a quick little theory with only one quote to back it up.  Well here goes.<br /><br />To start we all know Rand is Aiel, we also know that the Tinkers and the Aiel are descendants of the Da'shain Aiel from the Age of Legends.  We also know that the Tinkers would know the song when they heard it.  So I think that [The Tinkers] would find it familiar and because they seek the song they would instantly attribute the familiar nature of the song to it being the song they seek. <br /><br />Next is the quote in The Great Hunt, (chapter Kinslayer, pg 236 ppb) while Loial sings to a tree to create a quarterstaff in the alternate world Rand took himself, Loial and Hurin to with the portal stone &quot;Rand opened his mouth, but the song quieted him.  It seemed so familiar, that song, as if he should know it.&quot;  <br /><br />Now the conclusion.  Rand would recognize the song but he wouldn't know that it is the song the Tinkers seek cause well as of this point in the story he hasn't met a Tinker yet.</p><p><b>Roonas says:</b> Good theory, but have you considered that Loial may not know the whole song, only a portion of it? Or even that the Ogier might only know portions of it? Because Loial used what he knew of the song to make that staff does not prove outright that he &quot;knows&quot; the song. Ogier and Tinkers are not strangers necessarily, and I would have to assume that the Ogier would've been sought out by the Tuatha'an as a lead and that some sort of dialogue might have started between them. Just starting some debate. Otherwise, interesting observation.<br /><br /><br /> </p>


created: 2002-05-03 03:17:27
subject: The DO Wants Rand to Succeed -- Sort of
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<p>This is a theory of supposition.<br /><br />The Dark One wants Rand to succeed -- to a point -- and is actively helping him.  <br /><br />First, the 'Hows'<br /><br />(in no particular order)<br />He tells Demandred to &quot;Let the Lord of Chaos rule&quot;.  He wants Rand to gather strength,<br /><br />He strongly admonishes his Chosen to NOT kill Rand.  This is supported by several factors:  <br />     A) Trollocs coming to his aid in Tear<br />     B) Moridin helping him in Shadar Logoth<br />     C) His permissablity of Asmodean's teaching (you must accept that the DO -could've- killed Asmo off if he wanted -- I don't think that's a stretch).<br />     D) His constant pushing of Rand when he could've destroyed him (mostly highlighted by Ishy's attempts at conversion)<br />     E) etc.<br /><br />His failure (by choice) to have key agents of his kill key figures aiding Rand.  These are too numerous to mention, but don't tell me Halima couldn't snap Egwene's neck during one of those massages if she wanted to.  Daved Hanlon could've either allowed Elayne's death or aided it. In many instances, the DO has demonstrated that he COULD strike at key opposition figures, but does not do so. <br /><br />The Dark One HAS demonstrated that he can exert heavy-handed control over the Forsaken, if he so chooses.  He allows them their rivalries and schemes, but when it gets serious, he leans on them hard.  And in the background lurks Shaidar Haran.<br /><br />Okay...so why?<br /><br />Because Rand and his opposition is the DO's gambit to break free of his prison and shatter the Wheel of Time.  If he could've done it himself, he would've, over the aeons.  <br /><br />He is making a calculated gamble and why not? He's been imprisoned for incomprehensible lengths of time.  If it doesn't happen this age, it'll happen another.  He only has to win once.  This time is taking on a sense of urgency, because his schemes are succeeding, to a degree -- though that carries the danger of greater defeat. <br /><br />Notes:<br />Rand is referred to as the &quot;Lord of Chaos.&quot;  Creation is about Order -- the Pattern. Chaos is the antithesis of Order.  <br /><br />Every single time Rand has a watershed event -- a victory -- one of the seals erodes and breaks.  Rand's successes are weakening the DO's prison. <br /><br />Analysis:<br />The Dark One is positioning Rand to do what is needed to weaken/unlock the prison, allowing him to break free, all the while establishing his agents (Forsaken, DF, Taim) in critical areas so that when Tarmon Gaidin comes, he can hamstring Rand and complete his escape. <br /><br />Commentary:  <br />It's working -- to a degree. But there are some very troubling elements.<br />1.  Rand cleansed the Taint -- That is BAD. We do not know the ramifications of that yet, but they aren't beneficial for the DO, and it's a move he absolutely did not see coming.  Rand is capable of surprising him, and that's worrisome.<br /><br />2. Fain's uncontrollability -- Fain is a tool warped way out of control, and has become a major power in his own right.  And he desires Rand's destruction desperately.  And he just might have the wherewithal to pull it off. <br /><br />3.  The Finns' unpredictabilty -- What are they doing?  They obviously possess tremendous power and are beyond control of the DO.  And while they do him some service or aid (per bargaining), they also do so for the forces of Good as well.<br /><br />4.  Fel and Rand -- Fel's insight and Rand's intelligence and unconventional thinking are making a very dangerous mix, even after Fel's death. <br /><br />But in any event, the Dark One is aiding Rand with the hopes of allowing Rand just enough strength to free him, yet not enough to win (or at least that's the plan).</p><p><b>Roonas says:</b> Good theory, nuff said.<br /><br /><br /> </p>


created: 2002-05-03 03:22:17
subject: WoT Aid
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<p>Now we all know that eventually tarmon Gai'don will come and most people believe that it will destroy the world of WoT as we know it today. What we don't know, (though it's quite obvoius), is that to help the people through this time of fear and worry they shall do as they have always done. Africa had Band Aid, South Park had Chef Aid and Randland shall have WoT Aid.<br /><br />It shall be organised by a group of wealthy people and the Amyrlin Seat. She will want to rebuild the reputation of the Tower after the whole Elaida and Breaking of the Tower incidents. It shall involve all the nations of the world coiming together by means of Travelling. Ex-Aes Sedai and Asha'men will supply this.  After all they will help to destroy the world as it's inhabitants know it and they will want to try and rebuild their reps ( their PR manager told them to). All the nations and their inhabitants shall give money which will be used to re-build the cities which still partially stand. The rest will go to the poor and hungry and lazy of Randland.<br /><br />The music shall go like this:<br /><br />1: The Dead Soldier's Tribute Band: &quot;Do you Really want to Hurt Us?&quot;.<br /><br />2: The Asha'man Tenors: &quot;Nussun Dorma: The Old Tounge Version&quot;.<br /><br />3: Whitecloaks: &quot;YMCA&quot;.<br /><br />4: Aes Sedai go Disco: &quot;I will survive&quot;.<br /><br />*Intermission in which rampant money taking will take place among the organisers of the concert*<br /><br />5: Seanchean: &quot;S.O.S&quot;.<br /><br />6: Egwene, The Amyrlin Seat: &quot;Hazy Shade of Winter&quot;.<br /><br />7: The Dark One: &quot;MY EVIL SHALL LIVE ON! (To the tune of My Heart Will go On&quot;.<br /><br />*Intermission in which the now greatly reduced dark One is crushed by a small man wearing a barrel who's out of a job (Moridin)*<br /><br />The concert now enters the final four songs. These are sung by groups of people especially affected by the tragedy.<br /><br />8: Aviendha's Quadruplets: &quot;It's a Hard Knock Life&quot;.<br /><br />9: Falie ( Perrin died in the Final Battle): &quot;Goldeneyes&quot;<br /><br />10: Rand'al Thor (he survived but now that he's fulfilled all the profechies no one has much time for him, but that's another story): &quot;Starry, Starry Night&quot;<br /><br />11: The Creator ( now that the Dark Ones is dead he has no evil opposing force to contend with): &quot;All by Myself&quot;.<br /><br />With the final song over and all the money collected civillization can begin the long climb back into a feudal society filled with hate, war and blood. Thanks be to the Creator.<br /><br />&quot;All by myse-e-elf, dont want to be by myself anymo-o-ore. Hard to be sure....sometimes i feel so insecure. So distant and obscure....&quot;.<br /><br />*Most of the money did end up fueling guerilla warfare in southern Tear though and the rest was used to pay for a new ivory back-scrather for Egwene*<br /><br /><br /> </p>


created: 2002-05-03 03:27:08
subject: A look at the Wheel of Time
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<p>The Wheel of Time, it weaves out the threads that decide the fate of humankind and puts them together in a divine tapestry. It seems to be overlooked often in the series that the Wheel of Time is such a magor contributor to everything that's happening, sure they recognize it, but it seems that they all fail to recognize the true power that the Wheel encompasses.<br /><br />I think it was Verin who said that the only constant thing in the worlds in the Portal Stones were the Creator, the Dark One, and the World of Dreams (aka Tel'aran'rhiod). It strikes me as odd that the Wheel is also not mentioned in this. The only way that the Wheel will not exist is if the Dark One has broken free and stopped it from turning. Yet if the Dark One breaks free in one world, then he (or she) is free in all of the worlds, so it stands to reason that the Wheel should exist in these other worlds too. My theory is that the Wheel is Tel'aran'rhiod.<br /><br />The Wheel turns and endlessly spits out variations to what happens in the world. These variations can be shown in either the Portal Stones or the World of Dreams, where the Wheel &quot;stores&quot; them until there is need to spin them out again. The Wheel can go in an infinite number of ways, anything can happen. This is much like the rules of Tel'aran'rhiod, if you can believe something in Tel'aran'rhiod (it's becoming annoying typing that over and over so I'll start calling it T'A'R) then your belief will happen, example: Egwene flying in her little T'A'R trip to Tanchico.<br /><br />Where do the dead heroes of the past get sent when it's not yet their time to come out into the world and play? T'A'R. These heroes have stated that they are tied to the Wheel. This kind of gives the impression that they are stored on the Wheel and tossed out whenever needed. This is very similar to T'A'R where the heroes claim residency, they are kept there and tossed out of it when it comes time for them to be re-born.<br /><br />Well, there ya go. The World of Dreams is really the Wheel of Time.</p><p><b>Roonas says:</b> Interesting, if not a little weak on &quot;proof&quot; ... but an interesting theory none the less. It seems to me that the idea presented here is just a bit shy of the &quot;total picture&quot; but could be good insight with some discussion to broaden its scope.<br /><br /><br /> </p>


created: 2002-05-03 03:55:06
subject: What if Noal can channel? (Because I think Farstrider can)
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<p>Part 1<br /><br />I'm just curious if this thought has occurred to anyone else, but has anyone considered the possibility that Farstrider can channel. Think about all the discussion about him during tEotW. Remember that Loial says that...<br /><br />'There was a man came to Stedding Shangtai a little while back... what<br />you humans call the Aiel War. He was at the point of death, although there was no<br />wound or mark on him. The Elders thought it might be something Aes Sedai had<br />done, since as soon as he was within the stedding he quickly got well. A few months.<br />One night he left without a word to anyone, simply sneaked away when the moon was<br />down. Before he left, he told a curious tale which he said he meant to carry to Tar<br />Valon. He said the Dark One intended to blind the Eye of the World, and slay the<br />Great Serpent, kill time itself&quot; <br /><br />Now assuming that the man was Farstrider, isn't it possible that he was being affected by the taint, and once he entered the stedding, that is why he started to get better. After all, &quot;he was at the point of death, although there was no wound or mark on him.&quot;<br /><br />Furthermore, consider what Ba'alzamon tell's Rand<br /><br />&quot;Jain Farstrider, a hero... whom I painted like a fool and sent to the Ogier thinking he was<br />free of me&quot;<br /><br />We know that the DO prizes channelers more that anyone else for his servants. That is why they tend to rank highest. That would show another perspective on Ishy's interest of Farstrider. Now it Farstrider can in fact channel, it could also lend some interesting arguments to the Noal Charin theory. I've always though Farstrider was a channeler, and since I didn't see any posts on this subject, I thought I'd see what the rest of you thought.<br /><br />Part 2<br /><br />Now I recently posted a theory regarding the possibility that Jain Farstrider can channel.  Assuming this is true, what if Noal Charin is Farstrider.  Having looked at the Noal Charin being under Graendal's control, which I find to be fascinating and which I agree with many of it's points.  <br /><br />Matrim points out that Charin has seen much of the world, and is obviously a very talented individual.  Furthermore, he knows things about Shara that many people do not. In WH, Charin tell's stories to Mat's men &quot;about a place called Shibouya, supposedly beyond the Aiel Waste, where women who could channel had tattooed faces, over three hundred crimes carried the penalty of death.&quot; We know this to be true from Graendal's discussion with Sammael, so for Charin to know this, he has either been to Shara, or knows Farstrider's book really well.  I'm inclined to believe he's been there, because there is a natural quality to the storytelling in the way he downplay's his own role.  But this leads to the question, how did Charin survive in a land that is not friendly to foreigners.  The ability to channel would go a long way towards survival, considering that women cannot sense a man's channeling<br /> <br />Another thing to remember is the old man in aCoS.<br /><br /> &quot;Suddenly he realized he was touching his head again. He did not have a headache,<br /> but his head felt 'peculiar' sometimes. Most often he thought of what he could not<br /> remember... once again he pulled his hand down from his head. Sooner or later, he<br /> would remember. He did not have much time left, but it was all he did have. He<br /> remembered that much.&quot; <br /><br />Assuming this is Noal, which I believe it is, since he matches Charin's description, you cannot help wondering why he is having some problems remembering.  While Compulsion is a possibility, I think it is more likely that it is the taint having its affect on him.  This combined with the implied butt-kicking he got from Ishy, could easily contribute to his memory problems.<br /><br />Finally, we see in aCoS that Charin is &quot;a scrawny, white-haired fellow... His stooped shoulders and sad weathered face did not fit his fine grey coat... The old man tapped a gnarled finger against the side of his beak of a nose. Both looked to have been broken several times&quot;  I believe there is also mention of him no longer being able to hold a sword properly, because of his hands, although I can't find the quote.  This could be the start of the rotting disease in him.<br /><br />Overall, I think the possibility of Farstrider channeling could be very interesting, considering Mat's view of Aes Sedai, and the fact that there is no longer a taint.  <br /></p><p><b>Roonas says:</b> Again - not enough to prove or disprove yet, but I will put it up to the public to vote on. (and on a side note - you stated an incorrect fact - Men can sense women, and women can sense men channeling, they cannot see the weaves, but they can feel the channeling of the opposite sex. It also helps if the person channeling is strong in the power etc. but otherwise the theory is open for discussion.)<br /><br /><br /> </p>


created: 2002-05-03 13:16:33
subject: Will Mat betray Rand?
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<p>Just thinking out loud...<br /><br />In TGH: Chapter 37, the chapter where Rand, Verin, Mat and crowd use the portal stone to go to Toman Head, each person sees many unpleasant alternative futures.<br /><br />Mat grabs Rand by the coat with both hands and says, &quot;...I wouldn't betray you.&quot; What did Mat see in his alternative lives?<br /><br />Since that point in the story, Mat's current life has taken a few twists! But I would like to contrast his life against another: Barid Bel Medar - better known as Demandred.<br /><br />Demandred was one of the great generals for the Light. A gambler, he played the odds with strategic vision and tactical flare. When Lews became Commander of the Light, Demandred's hatred grew. He turned to the shadow in the third year of the War of Power.<br /><br />Mat is turning into one of the great generals of the current age, he is a gambler and he certainly plays the odds with great vision and flare. More and more he dislikes being tied to Rand though he continues to stay connected. And if I am counting correctly, we are getting nearer to the crowd being three years away from the Two Rivers...<br /><br />Interesting similarities, huh? I am not saying Mat is Demandred. I am only wondering out loud; the similarities are interesting. Coincidence?<br /><br />What a twist it would be if Mat were to betray Rand in the third year of the current struggle - or if he comes close but decides not to do so.</p><p><b>Burr says:</b> I doubt Mat would join the Shadow, though I kinda wish either he or Perrin would.  Several people theorize that Mat will join the Seanchan, though, and maybe that would work as well.  Good connection on the number of years, but maybe that much of it <i>is</i> coincidence.<br /><br /><br /> </p>


created: 2002-05-05 14:52:16
subject: Chaos, Order and the Strength of the Seals
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<p>After pondering this for quite some time, I&#8217;ve come up with a theory about why Fel was killed. If his has been done, sorry, but I&#8217;m taking a shot at it.<br /><br />The Dark One told Demandred to 'Let the Lord of Chaos rule,' meaning, of course, that Rand was to be allowed to continue doing his thing (and creating chaos in the process). There was a theory just posted that talks about why the DO wants Rand to succeed and I agree with it. There've simply been too many attempts to kill him and the other ta'veren that have failed when they ought to have succeeded. While it may just be that their ta'veren-ness has kept them alive, I don't believe that's all of it.<br /><br />It's obvious that the DO would like Rand to turn to the Shadow as much as he would like to destroy him (if not more so), yet what the DO wants above all is to be freed from his prison. Rand is probably THE strongest ta'veren ever, or at least as strong as Lews Therin was. And as it is described so many times, Rand is like a ripple or whirlpool in the Pattern, affecting countless lives, both near and far. <br /><br />Shortly before Fel was killed he gave a note to Rand that said, &quot;Belief and order give strength. Have to clear rubble before you can build. Will explain when see you next. Do not bring girl. Too pretty.  -Fel&quot; (LoC p.880, &#8216;Thorns&#8217; ).  I think that Herid Fel may have realized that the DO, who calls Rand the Lord of Chaos, knows that Rand is inadvertently weakening the seals. That is why the DO wants Rand to live for now and doesn't want the Forsaken interfering with Rand in any way. It is also why he had Fel killed, because the man had realized that there was a connection between the chaos springing up around Rand and the weakening of the seals. If he were allowed to live and had told Rand then a way might be found to stop the weakening of the seals.<br /><br />To sum it up:<br /><br />1) DO calls Rand LoC<br /><br />2) Order strengthens the seals, Chaos weakens them<br /><br />3) The DO wants out of his hole, and so he tells the Forsaken<br />to leave Rand alone so that he can spread more chaos<br /><br />4) Fel found out about this, was going to tell Rand, but was killed <br />for knowing too much about the true nature of the DO&#8217;s plans<br /><br />5) And so Rand the Ta'veren continues to weaken the seals <br />holding the Dark One's prison shut <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-red.gif" border="0" /><br /></p><p><b>Lauriana Sedai says:</b> I like this theory.  I just finished re-reading LoC myself last night, and this is the first time around that I've really paid attention to Fel's note.  I came up with pretty much the same conclusion- great minds think alike, I guess. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />  Nice job!<br /><br /><br /> </p>


created: 2002-05-07 17:33:05
subject: Balefire- is it really just a weave?
body:
<p>When Rand is trying to lay waste to Rahvin, he is balefirin&#8217; as if he were a shocklance.  Balefire pierces through walls, but unlike the boat, they remain intact.  Rahvin is doing the same, but the walls are not destroyed.  <br /><br />I know, they&#8217;re in the World of Dreams, and manipulation of their surroundings is possible, but that should not daunt this theory.  A strong dreamwalker could make imaginary walls real, replacing the missing walls, but neither Rand nor Rahvin was versed in the ways of this realm, so it would be unlikely for them to do so.  The walls would have had to stay intact on their own, without the aid of The Dream World.<br /><br />Their intent would be to keep the walls intact as a source of protection, cover, and to hide behind, so their intents acted on the balefire, which is subject to their minds, and the walls were left unscathed save for the areas where balefire touched them.  <br /><br />When a Black Sister uses the balefire rod against Nyneave, the blaefire released by the ter&#8217;angrael passes through the walls and destroys them.  How is it that Rand&#8217;s balefire pierced through walls, while the Black Sister&#8217;s balefire, in a sense, destroyed the wall.<br /><br />Chew on that for a second while I feed you more.<br /><br />When Rand balefires Darkhounds, the balefire does not continue through the Darkhounds.  When Moghedien balefires the ship that Nyneave is on, the balefire kills (passes through) <i>two</i> of the band <i>and</i> destroys the ship. <br />What was the intent of Rand&#8217;s balefire?  To kill only the Darkhounds.<br />What was the intent of Moghedien&#8217;s balefire?  Not to kill the Band, as they do not matter to her, but to destroy the ship, or kill Nyneave, or whatever, but definitely not to kill Band members.<br /><br />The balefire did its job in accordance with the intent. <br /><br />When Rahvin is killed, Rand hopes to change the pattern so that Aviendha can live once more.  Neither he nor LTT would be well practiced in the use of balefire, and so would not know how strong a weave would be needed.  The intent was to revert to the time before her death, and so, the intent acting upon the balefire, the net result was pleasing to the channeler, coinciding with the intent.<br /><br />So far as we know, everyone has their own style of weaving, but never two styles of weaving the same thing.  Weaves can be stronger or weaker, or cut off, but no person knows two different styles of weaving balefire.  Balefire is hot, liquid fire.  It annihilates.  We don&#8217;t know much about what balefire is, but it would have a lot of kinetic energy, and would travel faster because of this, if it were physical.  If it were based on waves, then the massive heat would mean that the wave would move very quickly.  I can rant on and on about physics, but the point is it moves quickly, so a weave of balefire will not be stopped by will.<br /><br />How then can balefire kill multiple people in one blow, while in another, one target is destroyed?  To recap, the weave cannot be altered in mid-swing.  The possibility of one person knowing multiple weaves for balefire is too slim to count.  What is evident in all these examples above?  The intent was carried out and was evident in the end result of the balefire.  Balefire is more than a weave, more than Earth, Fire, Water, Air, and Spirit.  It is a reflection of one&#8217;s desires, and acts in accordance with those desires.  It is not so much a weave as it is an extension of one&#8217;s self, a way for the mind to act beyond its limited control of the world.</p><p><b>Burr says:</b> Why should Rand have to use exactly the necessary strength of balefire to fulfill his intent of saving Aviendha, Mat, and company?  All we know is that he used <i>enough</i> balefire, not that he used <i>just</i> enough.  The same goes for Moghedian when she was destroying Nynaeve's ship.  All that scene shows us is that she channeled enough to destroy the two men and the boat, not that she channeled <i>just</i> enough to destroy the two men and the boat.  Besides, if killing the two men was not part of her intent, then why were they killed, if your theory is true?<br /><br /><br /> </p>


created: 2002-05-08 10:56:42
subject: Why the Whitecloaks' Cloaks Are So White
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<p>They sparkle.  They shine.  They never turn pink!  I was cruising the &lt;kiss up&gt;lovely MB of everyone's favorite site&lt;/kiss up&gt; when I ran across a survey that posed a question as to whether the WC's cloaks were really that white.  Well, they must be, since RJ said they were, and we all know that RJ is really the Creator, therefore everything he writes about WoT is true.  (Well, most anyway, but I digress.)<br /><br />Now, keeping a cloak sparkling clean in Amadicia, especially in Amador, can't be all that hard.  You're not really fight or riding hard with that cloak on, no one would DARE soil your snowy garment, so only a light rinse is necessary on occasion to keep it as pure as every Child's sterling heart.  But what happens when you go gallivanting across the Westlands in search of Darkfriends, that plague of all plagues?  After all, your cloak is bound to get sweaty, dusty, muddy, and bloody (the ones with red shepherd's crooks are especially prone to little red dots for some reason...) as you track down the vermin.  But bottles of bleach take up so much room that could be better used to hold ropes, chains, implements of tortu-... uh... persuasion, and, of course, food.  They simply aren't practical.  What's their closely-guarded secret?<br /><br />The One Power.<br /><br />I know you're shocked, but it's true.  A fair number of WCs are actually male channelers, especially members of the lowest ranks, the ones doing the laundry.  Highly prized for their cleaning skills, they use Water and Earth in order to get out even blood and wine stains to restore that just-sewn sheen.  The effects of the Taint increase the potency of their zeal, turning it into madness in and of its own self.  Consequently, there are more of these men who turn to the Questioners as a vent for their insanity.  These men are also the primary reason that the Children fight/hate the Aes Sedai so vehemently:  They keep losing their best launderers to those dang Reds!<br /><br />Now you know. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /> &quot;Walk in the Light!&quot;<br /></p><p><b>Burr says:</b> I'm not sure I agree.  Surely they can acquire the bleach they need from towns along the way.  Wisdoms and Wise Women probably sell it from their back porches, at least when they aren't forcing it down the throats of people they dislike.  Or perhaps there is a conspiracy among Wisdoms, Wise Women, Whitecloaks, and all the other worrisome 'W's...<br /><br /><br /> </p>


created: 2002-05-09 01:49:32
subject: The Song Will Be Sung...
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<p>Once again, I was bored, and began to research another theory. I think I may have found the true purpose of the Song. This may get a little lengthy, but if it gets posted, I hope it may spark some good discussion.<br /><br /> First of all, part of the credit for this theory has to go to the person who wrote a theory on the Song being in a dream of Rand's in The Eye of the World. Sorry that I can't remember who wrote it, but thanks to whoever did! We all know, (or at least STRONGLY suspect), that the Song is really a composition of different songs, which the Tuatha'an believe will bring a new Age of Legends.<br /><br /> One thing I am hypothesizing is that each part of the Song may do something different. Such as using it to help men corrupted by the Taint I have no solid evidence of this, but I believe it to be so.   Above all, I think the main purpose of the Song is going to be to drive back and destroy the Blight. My evidence is as follows:<br /><br /> (The Eye of the World, Ch.9: Tellings of the Wheel. Pg. 123 paperback) &quot;First one, then another of the people began to sing, until every voice was lifted in a glorious anthem. He still could not understand the words, but a dozen interweaving harmonies shouted joy and salvation.&quot;<br /><br /> This was in the dream where he was on a set course to the White Tower, and all the sad, hopeless people became joyous and sang as he neared. This is part of my evidence that it does more than one thing. Not only, I believe, does the Song affect plants and such, but also the human sprit, at least emotionally as well.<br /><br /> Robert Jordan has shown us several instances where Ogier Treesinging has produced growth that 'no blight may touch'. I do not believe this to be mere happenstance.<br /><br /> (The Eye of the World, Ch.53: The Wheel Weaves, Pg.775 Paperback) &quot;Before the oak, Loial knelt, closing his eyes, and stretching out his arms. The tufts on his ears stood straight as he lifted his face to the sky.<br /> And he sang.&quot; (Later on the same page), &quot; I've never sung so hard before. I could not have done it if something of Treebrother were not still here. My Tree Songs do not have his power. This little space, at least, will not sink into the Blight. The Blight will not have Treebrother.&quot;<br /><br /> The giant oak tree, where Someshta died, will never fall to the blight. Loial's song, probably part of THE Song, saved it.<br /><br /> (The Shadow Rising, Ch.26: The Dedicated, Pg. 433. Paperback) &quot; Coumin could hear the seed singing around the other fields, hear the women clapping to urge the men on, their rhythm the heartbeat of new life, but it was a distant knowledge. The song caught him up, and he almost felt that it was himself, not the sounds he made, that Someshta wove into the soil and around the seeds. Seeds no longer though.<br />Zemais sprouts covered the field, taller wherever the Nym's foot had trod. No blight would touch those plants, nor any insect; seed sung, they would eventually grow twice as high as a man and fill the town's grain barns.&quot; &quot;...The song faded slowly, the Aiel guiding it's end. Someshta danced a few steps more after the last voices ceased, and it seemed the song still hung faintly in the air for as long as he moved. Then he stopped, and it was done.&quot;<br /><br /> Again we have a quote about plants no blight can touch, because of a song, As I said earlier, about the Song helping men twisted by the Taint, I know it sounds far fetched, but I found a passage that shows a possible attempt. It may have failed because it was only part of the Song, not all.<br /><br /> (The Shadow Rising, Ch.26: The Dedicated, Pg.42<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smackhead.gif" border="0" />429 ppb) &quot; ...You Da'shain have more courage than...Ten thousand Aiel linking arms and singing, trying to remind a madman of who they were and who he had been, trying to turn him with their bodies and a song. Jaric Mondoran killed them. He stood there, staring as though at a puzzle, killing them, and they kept closing their lines and singing. I am told he listened to the last Aiel for almost an hour before destroying him....&quot;<br /><br /> It may not be what I think, but it's possible isn't it? Anyway, that's all I've got. Comments anyone?</p><p><b>Jeordam says:</b> I agree with you...in part.<br /><br />The song very well could help push The Great Blight back.  But I would think that it would need the Ogier to do it (since they are the last ones that have an actual affinity with the natural world). But keep this in mind.  In the Age of Legends, the boys were chosen to sing the song.  Meaning not everyone got it...so there were criteria for those who got to sing it.  What that criteria are (whether an actual Talent, or just the ability to sing at all) we don't know.<br /><br />As for snapping someone out of the effects of the Taint.  I'm not too sure of that one.  That quote has more of a feel as people singing against hope, knowing that only a madman would be doing something such as he's doing...but not someone who is insane...more of them desperately wanting him to remember that he is taking life.  But that's just me.<br /><br />Oh, and as for that dream of Rand's where the people are singing, and it's all joyous and all that.  Just remember two things about those dreams.  The first being is that their validity or truth-telling quality is quite...subject to question.  Secondly, the analogy falls way short considering all those people were inhabitants of the island of Tar Valon.  They were not Lost Ones....err....Tinkers.<br /><br /><br /> </p>


created: 2002-05-09 22:22:13
subject: Is Compulsion being used on Egwene?
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<p>We are all aware of the &quot;new&quot; Forsaken known in Salidar as Halima Saranov.  Halima of course is nothing more than the &quot;recycled&quot; Aran'gar.<br /><br />As Halima, the former male Forsaken now has the body of a gorgeous woman stolen from the borderlands, slender and lush.  &quot;She&quot; has green eyes, an ivory oval shaped face and long glossy black hair.  More importantly, now although a woman, &quot;she&quot; still channels saidin - the male half of the One Power.<br /><br />Halima became Delana's Secretary, and then became Egwene's maid, putting Egwene firmly under her watch and subject to her manipulations.<br /><br />But what else do we know about Halima?<br /><br />We know Halima orders Delana to support all the factions in Salidar.  &quot;She&quot; also orders Delana to press for gentling or killing Logain (LoC, Ch37).  Carlinya, Sheriam, Lelaine and Romanda all want Logain gentled again.  Delana, clearly under Halima's influence, presses to have him killed (LoC, Ch52).  Egwene will have nothing to do with killing Logain and in LoC, Ch52, she says, &quot;They will gentle him, Siuan.... That, or someone really will do what Delana has been hinting at.  I won't allow murder!&quot;<br /><br />Delana is of course by now only a pawn in the whole matter, voicing Halima's wishes.  To Halima, Logain is extremely dangerous to her plan and &quot;disguise&quot; being the only one around who could sense &quot;her&quot; channeling saidin.  As soon as Logain is gone, Halima's free to make her move on Egwene.  Well, that day finally comes... read on.<br /><br />In ACoS, Egwene comes down with an epidemic of nasty headaches.  The only way she can manage to get rid of them is for Halima to give her a massage.  Coincidence?  I think we all know better than that.  One of the oldest tricks in the book - cause a problem that only you can fix so you can win somebody's favor and confidence.<br /><br />Egwene's headaches continue to get worse (ACoS, Ch12).  When Halima arrives with a note from Delana (she is putting before the Hall a motion to declare Elaida Black Ajah because of Halima's account from Cabriana) we learn that Egwene's headaches began the day after Logain escaped, the first time she talked to Halima.<br /><br />So here we have the obvious connection between Halima and the headaches.  With Logain now out of the way &quot;she&quot; is free to work on Egwene without fear of discovery.  Apparently &quot;she&quot; is giving Egwene headaches through a nightly massage as well as torturing her with nightmares.<br /><br />By TPoD, Ch15 Halima has moved into Egwene's tent.<br /><br />But is it possible that something more menacing is going on than a Forsaken gaining Egwene's favor that allows her to easily spy on her?  I think so.<br /><br />In ACoS, Ch12 (paperback pg.312), as Halima massages Egwene, Halima says, &quot;You're stiff as a board... Just put yourself in my hands.&quot;  Egwene's sleepy response to this is, &quot;That will be nice.&quot;<br /><br />At first glance, this appears to be an acceptance of Halima's offer of a full-body massage after a hot bath.  But is it?<br /><br />Egwene immediately begins thinking of pledging long ago that one day she would bring Sheriam to heel and &quot;today was the day.&quot;  It is a rather worrying exchange, considering who the two parties are - the Amyrlin Seat and a Forsaken.<br /><br />Could Halima be using a bit of Compulsion on poor Egwene?  I think so.<br /><br />In WH, Ch 13, at the meeting of the Forsaken, Aran'gar (Halima) says, &quot;her own charge is fully under control.&quot;  I believe she is attempting to use Compulsion to control Egwene.<br /><br />But to what end?  Perhaps another theory for another day...<br /><br />Suggestions? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gandalf.gif" border="0" /><br /></p><p><b>Jeordam says:</b> It's very possible.  But here are some thoughts to kick about.<br /><br />At the Chos....err...Forsaken meeting, she says that her charge is fully under control.  Does (s)he mean literally?  As with Compulsion or just that she is in hand? To appear in higher standing with the other Forsaken, Halima could just be saying this to show that she isn't dropping her end of the deal (so to speak).<br /><br />As for the headaches and their origin, as well as the motive to get rid of Taim, I agree with you.<br /><br />Jeordam<br /><br /><br /> </p>


created: 2002-05-10 22:35:26
subject: Rand not your typical Dragon Reborn?
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<p>This isn't my theory, but one of my friends', so bear with me as I attempt to repeat it...<br /><br />Basically, the thought is that, as the Wheel has turned and ages have come and gone, Lews' spirit was born and died, then he is reborn and does whatever the Dragon REBORN has to do to fix things up. However, I don't think anything has ever been mentioned regarding the Car'a'Carn or the Coramoor in the Prophecies of the Dragon. In short, perhaps the Car'a'Carn is always destined to come, as is the Coramoor and the DR, but never before has one man been all three at once.<br /><br />So, the question is: is the Dragon Reborn always also He Who Comes With the Dawn and all the rest, or is what makes *this* turning of the Wheel a story worth telling the fact that Rand is the first incarnation of all of them in one man?</p><p><b>Roonas says:</b> Interesting theory. I must say even though this is short, I really like the idea of it ... basically stating that the wheel was turning out people in different roles, waiting for all three or more to be combined into one person ... interesting indeed!<br /><br /><br /> </p>


created: 2002-05-10 22:57:23
subject: The Taint as an Effect on Reborn Lives.
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<p>It has been questioned whether or not LTT is really in Rand's head, or whether he is simply a taint-induced figment of Rand's imagination. I think it is a little bit of both.<br /><br />Obviously Lews Therin is really there.  There are things about the voice that Rand could not possibly know even subconciously, such as remorse for killing Ilyena, knowledge of channeling, and the ability to make detailed drawings.<br /><br />But since every soul in Randland is reborn as someone else, why doesn't anybody else hear the voices of their old lives?<br /><br />I believe the answer lies in the Taint.  My theory is that the Taint breaks down the barriers between lives, somehow giving male channelers access to their old souls.  Cadsuane mentions that when male channelers begin to feel the Taint, they start to hear voices.  I believe these are the voices of their past lives.  Most male channelers aren't around long enough to make anything of them the way Rand has of LT's, and most simply aren't very important anyway (an old dead carpenter probably doesn't have anything very significant to say).<br /><br />And here's where this theory really gets juicy.  It finally gives us an alternate explanation for Mazrim Taim.  Since he is almost obviously not Demandred, as indicated by events in WH, I believe that he is the actually the reborn soul of an old foe of Lews Therin's, perhaps a Dreadlord, or one of the Forsaken who weren't at Shayol Ghul when the Bore was sealed (note that the Forsaken who were there were not all of them, just the most powerful).  Whispers from an AoL life would explain his channeling knowledge and his &quot;so-called Aiel&quot; remarks, and his being an enemy of Lews Therin's would explain his contempt toward Rand.  Perhaps it is even worse due to the amount of time he his been channeling, and that the extended exposure to the taint has actually caused the AoL soul to take over entirely.<br /><br />Just a thought.  Thank you for your time.</p><p><b>Roonas says:</b> I agree with the taint being a catalyst for opening up the soul's (or voices) in the Male Channelers heads, yet, I think the connection between Lew Therin and Rand is much more than that.  I believe there is something special to the connection of Lews Therin being the Dragon and Rand being the Dragon Reborn - as for Taim though, who can say ... maybe the Taint has unlocked some &quot;bad memories&quot; ... this also calls into question the &quot;third voice&quot; Rand hears ...???<br /><br /><br /> </p>


created: 2002-05-14 15:26:24
subject: Moiraine untied a weave
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<p>At the beginning of the chapter &#8220;The Dark One Stirs,&#8221; on page 733 of TEOTW, we find Moiraine engrossed in some kind of One-Power related activity:<br /><br />&quot;&#8230;the Aes Sedai stood in the middle of the hilltop with her eyes closed, not even seeming to breathe.  Nothing happened that Rand could see, except that Nynaeve and Egwene shivered despite the heat and rubbed their arms briskly.  Egwene's hands suddenly froze on her arms and she opened her mouth, staring at the wisdom.  Before she could speak, Nynaeve also ceased her rubbing and gave her a sharp look.  The two women looked at one another, then Egwene nodded and grinned, and after only a moment Nynaeve did, too, though her smile was only halfhearted. &quot;<br /><br />In the next paragraph Rand wonders to himself about what is causing the women to smile, while Matt demands to know what is causing the hold-up:<br /><br />&quot;What are we waiting for?&quot; Matt demanded, the low band of his scarf across his forehead.  <br /><br />And here is the big Answer from Moiraine:<br /><br />&#8216;Moiraine opened her eyes and started down the hill.  &quot;For me to remove the last vestige of what I did here last night.  The residues would have dissipated on their own in a day, but I will not take any risk I can avoid now.  We are too close, and the shadow is too strong here.  Lan?&quot;&#8217;<br /><br />First of all, Moiraine was obviously doing <i>something</i> with the one power.  It also had to be something that used a great deal of the power for our two as-of-yet untrained channelers to get the shivers from it (something that had not happened before in the series, despite the numerous times that Moiraine channels around them).  It also took a look of <i> intense </i> concentration on Moiraine's part.   She doesn't even strain like that when she casts Balefire (a strange and unexplained skill for her to possess, in its own right&#8230; ). <br /><br />The only time we find any reference to removing residues is when Aviendha unties the weave that allows Elayne and Nynaeve&#8217;s party to escape Ebou Dar at the beginning of PoD (&#8220;Unweaving&#8221; ).  When she does this, the Aes Sedai with her (who all wish to see her in novice white) begin to yell at her and tell her what a fool wilder thing it was to do, and that she should become a novice and receive proper training.  When she explains the residues to the group of women, though, the Aes Sedai appear to be surprised by her knowledge.  Not one of them says anything like &quot;there is another, safer way to remove residues, and you would know it if you were a novice&#8230;,&quot; etc.  <br /><br />Presumably, since no one but a channeler can see the residue left by a weave, there would be no reason for a sister to know how to hide a residue; no reason for the tower to even conduct research into such a dangerous area.  Particularly considering the fact that the White Tower did not (until very recently) believe in the Black Ajah. It is safe to assume from the women&#8217;s reaction to Aviendha&#8217;s knowledge that the White Tower did not do much research in the area of &#8216;unweaving.&#8217;<br /><br />Also, Moiraine is really concentrating in the earlier scene, in much the same way that Aviendha and Elayne have to focus in order to safely untie their weaves.  Thus, the only answer that I can see is that Moiraine knows how to untie weaves.  This is very interesting since the Tower offers no classes on the subject; it is, in fact, something that seems to be forbidden.  In the scene in PoD, Moridin said that unraveling a weave was &#8220;something that no one in his own Age had dreamed of,&#8221; (p.81) so it is not old knowledge.   The Wise Ones knew how to do it, but it seems highly unlikely that Moiraine spent any extensive amount of time with Wise Ones prior to when she meets up with Rand.  In my opinion, all of this suggests that there is more to Moiraine than meets the eye. <br /></p><p><b>Lauriana Sedai says:</b> I noticed Moiraine doing this during a recent re-read of tEotW, and I agree with you. We've seen Moiraine use Balefire (as you point out) and we <i> know </i> that the Tower doesn't teach you that in novice classes! As you say, there's more to Moiraine than meets the eye. So many of the Aes Sedai characters are bound and determined to see everyone (sisters included) follow Tower-Law to the letter that Moiraine certainly seems to be an anomaly. My feeling is that she's a lot like Verin.  Both of them respect the authority of the Tower, but at the same time each has her own agenda that she feels is too important to be put aside, whatever the cost. Nice work! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /> </p>


created: 2002-05-14 15:47:42
subject: Lan did it!
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<p>With thanks to The Markus Reborn, for getting me started on this theory, I present the following. Ahem.<br /><br />For a long time the question of who killed Asmodean has tormented the valiant denizens of wotmania; but it will no longer. For I have discovered the true identity of the killer and his name is: Lan.<br /><br />That's right, Lan. The last man you would expect, I know. But don't let his good-guy facade fool you. Lan is a man with problems, as you shall see. All of the marvelously circumstantial evidence points to the obvious conclusion.<br /><br />After Moiraine vanished, Lan rode off into the sunset, heading generally west toward his new Aes Sedai. He happened to come to Caemlyn (he rode really quickly because he's just that cool), and being thirsty, took a break to raid the pantry for wine. At this time, Asmodean stumbled in and became the first witness to Lan's shocking drinking problem. Asmodean, recognizing that all the wine was gone (and having a hankering for some himself) of course shouted &quot;You? No!&quot;  Lan reacted with his usual speed, skewering Asmo on the end of his sword.  Lan then took the body and rode out of Caemlyn, depositing it in Lugard on his way to meet the Rebel Aes Sedai. It all makes sense!<br /><br />I mean, come on, think about it!  RJ said it was obvious, and what's more obvious that this?  <br /></p><p><b>Lauriana Sedai says:</b> My God, it's been under our noses all this time! Your deductive powers astound me, my friend. Maybe Lan got upset when Asmo suggested that Rand and a few of the others were planning an 'intervention' to discuss the warder's rampant alcoholism. Heh-heh-heh. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /> </p>


created: 2002-05-16 19:12:15
subject: Graendal's Lean-Old-Man --
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<p>&quot;Oddly, a lean old man sat disconsolately among the performers.&quot; (tFoH, The First Sparks Fall, p31)<br /><br />There has been some speculation linking the Lean Old Man with General Rodel Ituralde (the &quot;great general&quot; from Arad Doman).  So what do we know of Graendal's subjects?  We know that Graendal chooses her pets for their beauty and station.  But she also makes use of those who aren't so pretty.  She tends to overdo it with Compulsion.  Rahvin says she has no &quot;finesse.&quot;  Even &quot;just a touch&quot; leaves the subject able to do little more than follow her orders to the exclusion of all else, as Rahvin (tFoH, The First Sparks Fall, p32) and Moghedien, I seem to remember, both note.  They become essentially mindless, drooling toadies.  And I can't imagine that the lean old man would only sit disconsolately if he weren't being Compelled.<br /><br />A general wouldn't be much good to her Compelled.  Graendal puts in a little more effort (than would be necessary to convince a Compelled subject) when it comes to Gen. Ituralde.  On p183 of LoC, Threads Woven of Shadow, she hides her identity when he comes to see the Lady Basene.  And on p289, of tPoD, New Alliances, she develops an elaborate deception in order to convince Ituralde to do what she wants.  If he were Compelled this wouldn't be necessary.</p><p><b>Burr says:</b> I think it is becoming clear that Farstrider, not Ituralde, was the old man; but let's see if this nails the coffin shut.<br /><br /><br /> </p>


created: 2002-05-17 14:02:49
subject: Elaida's Foretelling and the Black Tower
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<p>Just an idle thought, but interesting nonetheless. When Elaida, in Book 7, has her Foretelling in Alviarin's presence, she says that:<br /><br />&quot;The Black Tower will be rent in blood and fire, and sisters will walk its grounds.&quot;<br /><br />I think that most people (Elaida included) have always taken &quot;sisters&quot; to mean Aes Sedai. Yet whenever someone refers to Aes Sedai as such, they use the capital letter to make &quot;Sisters.&quot; With this in mind, I present my alternative theory.<br /><br />Elayne and Aviendha will play a significant role in the Black Tower conflict between Taim and Logain. Why? Because they are sisters, of course. Elayne has already taken an interest in Taim and the Black Tower, and anywhere she goes Aviendha will follow.<br /><br />Perhaps they will be the ones to make Logain stand up to Taim once Taim becomes dangerous (more dangerous than he is already, that is). The two &quot;sisters&quot; will either precipitate the conflict or be there to clean up the mess afterward, perhaps both. Regardless, I believe that Elaida's Foretelling shows that Elayne and Aviendha will walk the grounds of the Black Tower as the conflict there rages.</p><p><b>Burr says:</b> Good observation, and it does seem likely that Elayne would take an interest in the Black Tower.  But considering that there are already Sisters in the Black Tower, I don't think your interpretation is necessary for the prophecy to be fulfilled.  One consideration we should make is Elaida's Foretelling was vocal, not written; and one can't pronounce a capital letter.  That doesn't mean your take on it won't happen, though.<br /><br /><br /> </p>


created: 2002-05-18 13:09:07
subject: A Possible Way to Enter the Tower of Ghenjei
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<p>This is the first time I have written a theory, so if it sounds stupid, I'm sorry.  But here goes.  After reading many theories on here, I am convinced (as so many of you seem to be) that Moiraine is alive and that someone needs to get into the tower of Ghenjei to rescue her.  But as far as we know, there is no way in.  <br /><br />I noticed that in <u>A Crown of Swords</u>, Rand is jumping all over the place in Illian with gateways, because he explains that &quot;you didn't need to know a place at all to travel to it if it was very close.&quot;  So basically, couldn't Rand (or anyone who can make a gateway) go just outside the Tower of Ghenjei, open up a gateway, and then have Thom or Mat (or whoever) just walk right in?  I think so.  I know this seems so simple, but I think it is the easiest way to get in.  So if they ever do go to rescue Moiraine, why not do it this way?  <br /></p><p><b>Lauriana Sedai says:</b> It may be a fairly simple way to get in, but it just might work! I never considered this as a way to reach Moiraine, although I did wonder what (if anything) Jordan was going to do with the 'short-distance' traveling idea. One problem <i>might</i> arise because the tower is in some way related to the One Power.  I don't know how this might affect someone trying to travel into the tower, but it's one possible flaw that I can see with the idea.  I'm just playing devil's advocate, though <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />  Nice work!<br /><br /><br /> </p>


created: 2002-05-18 13:19:53
subject: Oath Rod/Compulsion
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<p>Is Oath Binding a form of Compulsion?  Here are some interesting coincidences I noticed.  Not enough to be conclusive, but I think it qualifies as a maybe.<br /><br />We know now that Binding shortens the life span, (mini-theory here, hope I&#8217;m not repeating something already posted) though I hypothesize that this is because of an unnatural restriction put on the mind and body.  The more the recipient &#8220;fights&#8221; the restrictions, the more forcefully she is bent to obey them.  If she were buried up to her eyebrows in the need to hide the truth without lying (like typical Aes Sedai), it would become rather stressful for the mind, and thus the body, to be so bent.  For an Aes Sedai (like Cadsuane) whose nature is to do what she thinks is right and the DO take the White Tower&#8217;s conniving, plots and intrigue, she wouldn&#8217;t fight those restrictions as much, and if I&#8217;m right, would live longer.  (It could help if she spends a good deal of time in retirement hoeing in a garden.)  <br /><br />As for the form of &#8220;Compulsion&#8221; that Verin uses on the da&#8217;tsang Aes Sedai in the Aiel camp, it&#8217;s not as intricate as was used in the AoL (according to Verin), but more complex than is used by channelers of the day.  &#8220;The woman might die inside the year, or in ten, as a result of this, but the weave itself would not harm her (tPoD 27).&#8221; Hers is the only detailed description of Compulsion weaving we have.  <br /><br />The Oath Rod is activated by a weave of spirit (tPoD 573).  With Verin&#8217;s Compulsion, &#8220;Spirit predominated by far (tPoD 27).&#8221;  With Liandrin&#8217;s, I seem to remember that it was partly Spirit, but I can&#8217;t find my index card for her, and right now, I don&#8217;t feel like flipping through nearly 1000 of them to find where I misplaced it.<br /><br />The Oath Rod&#8217;s weaving is described as being made into the bone, being made a part of the person.  And Verin describes her weave as, &#8220;Those faintly glowing threads sank into her, vanished (tPoD 31).&#8221;  And Delving was not likely to find it.<br /><br />So, are the Aes Sedai using (*gasp!* ) Compulsion on themselves?  Wouldn&#8217;t that be ironic, considering it&#8217;s forbidden?</p><p><b>Burr says:</b> Possibly, but there are some differences in the Compulsion weave and descriptions of the Oath Rod that we should consider.<br /><br />The Compellor does not merely weave the Compulsion weave; rather, they also determine what the victim is Compelled to do.  The victim has no choice in the matter.  With the Oath Rod, the person swearing the Oath has the freedom to swear anything they wish.<br /><br />On a similar note, when being Compelled, a victim will at least temporarily idolize the person doing the weaving.  But an Aes Sedai giving an oath on the Oath Rod neither idolizes the rod nor the person channeling Spirit into the rod.<br /><br />Finally, and probably the biggest difference, a strong-willed person can fight against Compulsion, and even defeat it.  But if that were true of the Oaths, I doubt there would be many Aes Sedai still subject to them.<br /><br /><br /> </p>


created: 2002-05-19 15:29:00
subject: Courage, Fire, Music and Iron
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<p>This theory was in part a result of reading a theory by Had, &quot;A Possible Way to Enter the Tower of Ghenjei,&quot; which states that Rand will Travel into the Tower from outside or close by it. It is also influenced by Three In A Boat's theory &quot;Courage to Strengthen,&quot; but some of my points disagree with his.<br /><br />Let us examine the chant:<br /><i>Courage to strengthen, fire to blind, music to dazzle, and iron to bind.</i><br /><br />The game Snakes and Foxes is said to be a memory of dealings with the Finn, and a person can only beat them by cheating. The Finn forbid people who visit them using the two <i>ter'angreal</i> to bring lanterns, musical instruments, or things made of iron into their world. Obviously they're scared of them, so they can probably be defeated by these things. Children's chants can be very indicative of past events, both in real life and in the Wheel of Time (for instance, the &quot;Let the Lord of Chaos Rule&quot; chant), as they are passed down orally and often do not change very much over the years. In fact, they are one of the last remnants of our ancient oral traditions. I would imagine that Jordan knows this. Thus, it could well be that the rhyme is the only remaining memory of dealings with the Finn in the last Third Age. The suggestion is that only by using these four things, and in perfect unison, can one beat the Finn at their own game. The chant may (or may not) be a memory from when they were defeated by Rand, Mat, Perrin and Thom &#8216;archetypes&#8217; seven Ages ago.<br /><br /><b>1.)Mat: Courage to strengthen.</b> He is a great general, and has many memories of being a soldier, therefore I feel he represents Courage. He has dealt with the Finn before, having visited both <i>ter&#8217;angreal</i> worlds, and would love to get back at them both for cheating him (as he sees it). His fox head amulet may be important in some way, too. Perhaps seeing it will make them listen to the heroes instead of killing them, or something of a similar nature.  And when Egwene has her famous viewing of Thom pulling a blue stone out of a fire, Mat seems to be connected to the situation, as well:<br /><br /><i>&quot;Mat throwing dice with blood streaming down his face, the wide brim pulled low so she could not see his wound, while Thom Merrilin put his hand into a fire to draw out the small blue stone that now dangled on Moiraine's forehead.&quot;</i><br /><br />There is a chance that they are not related, but the &quot;while&quot; does seem to suggest that they are linked. And Mat is with Thom at the moment.<br /><br /><b>2.)Rand: Fire to blind.</b> He can Travel, so he can get the guys into the Tower in the first place. When he went to see the Aelfinn in Tear, he blinded them with his sword of Fire. Enough said, I think.<br /><br /><b>3.)Thom: Music to dazzle.</b> Obviously: he's a musician.  Add in Egwene&#8217;s dream of him pulling Moiraine's stone out of a fire, and I think it&#8217;s simple enough.<br /><br /><b>4.)Perrin: Iron to bind.</b> As we all know, he's a blacksmith. He is also the most likely one to figure out exactly where to find Moiraine in the first place. He knows more about the tower than anyone else, and it seems obvious that, since he has conversations with Hopper and Birgitte about the tower, he's probably going to go in there some day.<br /><br />I think Perrin will not go in together with Rand, Mat and Thom (assuming, of course, that it does even happen this way). I think there is a chance that he will enter it via the Wolf Dream. He has seen the Tower there, and I have a feeling that his rescuing Faile from T'A'R in tDR was a foreshadowing of this. Perhaps they will all meet there, somehow being in the same place although Perrin is in T'A'R and the others are in the real world (I think Finnland is probably like that - a mixture or <i><b>Crossroads</b></i> between the two worlds). The fact that they escape at all afterwards will probably have something to do with the fact that Perrin is there in the dream-world and not in the real world. Perhaps he can change stuff around in order to get them out, or can exit by waking up.<br /><br />Much of number 4.) is influenced by Three In A Boat's theory, &quot;Courage to strengthen...&quot; in the &quot;Moiraine&quot; section of the Theory Post. However, before you rally with cries of plagiarism, he thought that Egwene was the courage and Mat was the fire.  So there are distinct differences.<br /><br />Conclusion: Mat, Rand, Thom and Perrin are, respectively, Courage, Fire, Music and Iron.  These &#8216;elements,&#8217; used in conjunction with each other, can defeat the Finn and rescue Moiraine.<br /><br />Yours, <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/myrddraal.gif" border="0" />.<br /></p><p><b>Lauriana Sedai says:</b> I think we can all safely assume that Thom will be involved in the rescue, and I've suspected that Perrin would go along, as well, ever since he discovered the Tower.  I agree that Mat and Rand work nicely as Courage and Fire.  I had assumed that Mat would go along just because if anyone's going to cheat the Finn, it's got to be dear Master Cauthon. I hadn't considered the Rand/Fire connection, but it seems obvious to me now that you point it out that <i>someone</i> who can channel should probably go along with the rescue party.  And it's been a long time since we've gotten to see the three Ta&#8217;veren in action together.  Nice work! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /> </p>


created: 2002-05-23 13:52:37
subject: Origin of the Seanchan Prophecies
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<p>There appears to be two versions of the Karaethon Cycle in existence.  The first is the common version found in the Westlands with several references made to in the books.  The second version is found among the Seanchan.<br /><br />One of the first hints of a differing version of the Prophecies of the Dragon occurred in PoD, A time for Iron, where we have the point of view of Captain General Kennar Marij.  He thinks, &#8220;The Prophecies of the Dragon had been known in Seanchan ever before Luthair Paendrag began the Consolidation.  In corrupted form, it was said, much different from the pure version Luthair Paendrag brought.&#8221;<br /><br />He later muses, &#8220;Maraj had seen several volumes of the Karaethon Cycle printed in these lands and they were corrupted too...&#8221;<br /><br />The only known distinction is the prophesied relationship between the Dragon Reborn and the Seanchan.  In TDR The Hunt begins, Moiraine quotes several lines to Perrin: &#8220;...shall bind the nine moons to serve him.&#8221;  We know that the Court of the Nine Moons is the court of the Empress of the Seanchan, and this version of the prophecy suggest that Rand will force the Seanchan to help him fight the Last Battle.<br /><br />On the other hand, the second version, as known by the Seanchan, has the relationship the other way around.  Maraj, when considering the versions of the prophecies printed in the Westland thinks, &#8220;no one mentioned him serving the Crystal Throne...&#8221;<br /><br />Also in WH, What a veil hides, Tuon states, &#8220;&#8216;I must find a way to make contact with the Dragon Reborn as soon as possible.  He must kneel before the Crystal Throne before Tarmon Gai'don, or all is lost.&#8217;  The Prophecies of the Dragon said so, clearly.&#8221;<br /><br />It seems likely that the corrupted version found in Seanchan matches those found in the Westland when the Seanchan returned.  If this is the case where did the Seanchan get their version?  The thoughts of the Seanchan general offer some clues.  Hawkwing&#8217;s son, Luthair, brought the version the Seanchan are currently using across the sea.<br /><br />We know from the Guide and hints through out the series that Ishamael was imperfectly imprisoned in the sealing of the bore and that he gained a degree of freedom from time to time.  During one of these periods he took on the identity of a man called Moeran who became the chief advisor to Hawkwing.  He first appeared around FY 973 and remained on the scene for 40 years.  The expedition to Seanchan was launched in FY 992, well within the time he was around.<br /><br />In EotW, The Stag and the Lion, Ishamael confirms this to Rand.  &#8220;...I whispered in Artur Hawkwing's ear and the length and breath of the land Aes Sedai died.  I whispered again, and the High King sent his armies across the Aryth Ocean, across the World Sea, and sealed two dooms.  The doom of his dream of one land and one people, and a doom yet to come...&#8221;<br /><br />It seems clear that Ishamael encouraged Hawkwing to send the armies to Seanchan for his own purposes.  If he had a hand in sending the armies, and if he knew their eventual fate, then Ishamael would probably not want them to have anything that would lead their descendants to serve his ancient enemy, the Dragon.  As a Councilor high in the service of the High King he could easily have given Luthair a going-away present, an amended version of the prophecies of the Dragon, one which predicts that the Dragon would serve the Nine Moons.<br /><br />The deception was probably easy.  It is known that few outside scholars and Aes Sedai study the prophecies of the Dragon.  A merchant's guard who came to the Two Rivers was fired when Nynaeve reported to the merchant about him talking about the prophecies.  Only a select few knew the exact details of the prophecies.  Ishamael could quite easily have told Luthair that the copy he was giving him was one of the oldest, purest form and should be guarded carefully and that he should not be fooled by fake corrupted versions.  He might even have blamed the Aes Sedia for changing the prophecies to serve their own ends.  Given the Hawkwing-Aes Sedai relationship at the time, Luthair would probably have believed the Aes Sedai capable of any deception.<br /><br />Like so many other events in the Prophecies, this minor act could echo down the years to have major reverberations.</p><p><b>Burr says:</b> Whether the Dragon servers the Nine Moons or the Nine Moons serves the Dragon, bringing the two together still leads them to negotiate.  If Ishy were going to corrupt the prophecies, surely he could make them serve him better than that.  On the other hand, maybe he has, and we just don't know the full story yet.<br /><br /><br /> </p>


created: 2002-05-23 15:36:44
subject: Is Chesa a Darkfriend?
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<p>Don't kill me if this has been mentioned before, but I haven't seen it brought up.<br />In <u>The Path of Daggers</u> we discover a number of interesting things going on around the 'rebel' Aes Sedai.  For one thing, Halima/Aran'gar is getting a little <i>too</i> close to Egwene.  Also,  Sheriam turns out to be either Black Ajah or at least an 'unwilling' sort of darkfriend.  <br />In the chapter &quot;Unexpected Absences,&quot; a couple of things occur that I find very coincidental. On pages 372-373 we find Halima burying a body in the snow.  The identity of the corpse is unknown at the time, but then on page 378 Chesa tells Egwene that Meri has run away, so I think it's safe to assume that Halima (who has become yet another of Egwene's 'maids') was likely burying Meri.<br />Then on page 380, Chesa returns and reports that Selame is absent, as well. Her quote is interesting: &quot;Who'd expect Selame to go missing, too?...Off canoodling with the soldiers, I expect. That Halima's a bad influence.&quot;<br />I find it very interesting that Halima kills all of Egwene's maids except Chesa, particularly because Sheriam was the one who picked Chesa out originally.  If Halima wants to be Egwene's only confidant, then wouldn't it make sense to kill Chesa, too?  The only answer that I can come up with is that when Sheriam (who is at the very least affiliated with the Shadow, if not an out-right darkfriend) picked the maid that she was going to give to Egwene, she picked a darkfriend.  That would explain why Halima chooses not to kill Chesa: because they're on the same side.  It would also explain why Chesa is such a wonderful servant.  Because she has an ulterior motive, she doesn't want to risk getting fired.<br /></p><p><b>Lauriana Sedai says:</b> I'm totally in agreement with you here. I love Chesa's character, but she's just too good to be true. Plus, I've had my suspicions about her ever since I read the scene that reveals Sheriam's work for the Shadow.  Nice job. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /> </p>


created: 2002-05-24 11:58:56
subject: Asmodean's Addiction.....and why he was taken
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<p>Asmodean has a problem.  While he hangs out with the Dragon Reborn, his sworn enemy, why doesn't he spend all of his time trying to break through the shield? Why does he just sit there playing music (or, rather, why did he before 'death took him')?  I have an explanation for this; it will answer all your questions as to why Asmodean was so complacent about teaching Rand.<br /><br />The answer concerns the Dreaded Girl Scout Cookie! That's right! Asmodean is addicted to Girl Scout Cookies, their sweet goodness is too much for him to handle (note: it is a little known fact that Girl Scout Cookies are the real source of the True Power).  When he heard that Lanfear was looking for a male channeler (or, rather, one of the male Forsaken) to help Rand, he tells her that he'll help her out if she can get him away from the Girl Scout Cookies, as he was becoming overly addicted to them and didn't want to spend his life sitting on a couch chomping away at them and growing fat. So Lanfear put a shield on him, which really keeps the Girl Scouts from finding him and tempting him with the sweet Girl Scout Cookies that they sell. So he sat there content, strumming his harp, fighting his addiction. Of course he went through withdrawal symptoms, but he overcame those easily by drowning himself in oos'quai (or some such spelling, whatever the Aiel drink).<br /><br />Moridin always has a few boxes of Girl Scout Cookies on him and when he gets a spare moment he always sits down and chomps on a few.  On one occasion, this gave him the insight to see where Asmodean was hiding. So he popped up in the wine cellar in Caemlyn and waited there for Asmodean. He knew he would come because he was still going through GSCWS (Girl Scout Cookie Withdrawal Symptoms) and would have to get drunk in order to endure the cookie-withdrawal. So, after his massive battle with Trollocs and other nasty things with big sharp teeth, Asmodean naturally became very hungry, he felt deprived of something, and he recognized this as GSCWS and decided to go get drunk. So he walks in the wine cellar not expecting anything/one to be there, but of course Moridin is waiting for him there. Moridin stuffs a cookie down Asmodean's throat and forces him to come with him to Shayol Ghul, manufacturing plant of Girl Scout Cookies. Since Moridin means death, it is safe to say that death took him to Shayol Ghul for cookies and milk. He also removed Asmodean's shield so that he could have freer access to Girl Scout Cookies.<br /><br />So, to all of you who think that the True Power extends from the DO or is the taint or anything else I have but one thing to say, HAH. You never realized that it was the cookies did you? And I have but one thing to say to those of you who think that Slayer or Moridin or someone else killed him, HAH he just went to get some cookies and milk! He didn't die! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sleepy.gif" border="0" /><br /></p><p><b>Lauriana Sedai says:</b> Jaric, I can honestly say that I've read more outlandish theories about Asmo's killer, and many of them were just as absurd AND they were serious!  I, too, have always felt a great evil lurking just below the surface of the Girl Scout Cookie Empire.  I complement your brave attempt to unmask the evil cookies that are the source of the True Power, and I can only hope that the masses heed your warnings and resist the sweet cookie temptation in the future. Our society is still not at a point where Girl Scout Cookie addiction can be discussed in polite company, and I think it's time for a change.  You, sir, are a true trendsetter as well as a humanitarian. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /> </p>


created: 2002-05-24 13:27:05
subject: Addy Vandy and Messy (or The Adeleas-Vandene-Mesaana Connection)
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<p>Other people have posted theories suggesting that there is something fishy about Adeleas and Vandene, and I'm not going into details here since so many others have pointed out these inconsistencies already.  Instead, I will present my own ideas about the sisters' suspicious behavior.  For one thing, I believe that Adeleas (Addy) is posing as Vandene.  To take this a step further, I believe that she is really Mesaana.<br /><br />First, let me explain why I think Addy is posing as Vandene.<br /><br />The two of them are nearly identical. There are numerous occasions in the books when people have gotten the two of them confused. The most convincing piece of evidence I have is that the two of them can (and often do) swap identities (or at least allow people to be confused about which is which) occurs in a scene involving Mat.  Mat is in the palace in Ebou Dar trying to get a message to Elayne and Nynaeve, when he is accosted by one of the elder sisters.  If the luckiest man in the world can't tell the difference, then why expect anyone else to be able to?  There are other subtle clues like this one in the books, and suffice it to say that the old 'twin-switcharoo' trick would be something that I would not put past Aes Sedai.<br /><br />With that said, lets take a look at the reasons I believe that Addy faked her own death. One problem that I see involves Jaem (Vandene's warder).  We know that a warder can have his bond passed along to another sister against his will.  For example, Moiraine does this to Lan.  However when Egwene (Eggy) meets Lan after he has been passed along, she notices that something about his eyes had changed. <br /><br />Now fast forward to the scene in which we discover the murdered sister.   We are told just a bit about Jaem's condition, and it is said that &quot;his eyes were nearly as hard as Lan's.&quot;  Why would RJ say something like that unless it was meant to be a clue (perhaps a clue that Jaem has had his bond passed along and that his original Aes Sedai, Vandy, is dead)?<br /><br />Ok, now on to the Messy part (pun intended).  While the party is at the Kinswomen's farm, Addy does the Mesaana lip-tap while trying to convince Elayne leave Ispan's 'questioning' up to more experienced sisters. <br /><br />I know it may be a bit of a stretch, but consider the Draghkar in EotW and all the other fishy stuff going on with the sisters.  And I would not put it past RJ to pull the Twin-Switcheroo on all of us. <br /><br />Any comments are welcome and more importantly any evidence pro or con.<br /></p><p><b>Lauriana Sedai says:</b> Hmm...this is an interesting idea. First, let me say that regardless of any evidence presented, I wouldn't put it past RJ to confuse us with the 'twin switcheroo,' as you put it. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> The lip-tap does seem to be a bit coincidental, and Jaem is definitely on edge. I do think that he <i>could</i> look so upset because he is feeling Vandene's loss through their bond (and she would certainly be upset about Adeleas's death even if, as some have speculated, she actually killed her sister herself). This isn't an idea I've encountered before, though, and it has potential. Good job! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />P.S. Chapter 4 &quot;A Quiet Place&quot; in PoD is the section in which Elayne and the older sisters discuss Ispan's interrogation.<br /><br /><br /><br /> </p>


created: 2002-05-25 13:26:18
subject: Narishma Will Wield Callandor
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<p>There must be, what, twenty-something theories saying that Logain's glory will come from weilding Callandor and saving Rand at the Last Battle, or using the Sword That Is Not A Sword to fry Mazrim Taim. While I do believe that Logain will either run off or kill off Mazrim Taim, and then take over as M'Hael, and while it is entirely possible that Logain will save Rand at the Last Battle, I disagree with Logain holding Callandor.<br /><br />Let's take a look at the obvious: Rand sent Narishma to fetch Callandor from the Heart of the Stone. The prophecies state (they clearly state this, yes, CLEARLY for once) that the man who draws Callandor from the Stone will follow after Rand. Did Logain draw Callandor from the Stone? No, I don't think so. I'll re-read Path of Daggers just in case I missed something, but I'm pretty sure Logain was at the Black Tower at the time, and Rand had no idea that the False Dragon was even enrolled as an Asha'man.<br /><br />Now I'll point out the not-quite-so-obvious-but-still-incredibly-obvious: Rand is not a trusting person. Rand doesn't even trust himself with Callandor. Yet he trusted Narishma, if barely, to go get Callandor from Tear. He trusted Narishma, at the end of Winter's Heart, to use Callandor safely in a link with Rand's loyal Aes Sedai while Rand and Nynaeave were busy cleansing said'in. Also, I believe Rand will grow to trust Narishma more now that said'in is free from the taint and Rand knows that Narishma and the rest of the Asha'man won't go mad and break the world. And when Cadsuane teaches Rand to be human again, his hardness and lack of trust may crumble. But even when Rand is human again, I have trouble picturing Callandor in the hands of a False Dragon. Rand handing over Callandor for Logain, a former False Dragon, to use in either the Black Tower's Civil War or in the Last Battle is something I have trouble swallowing.<br /><br />The way I look at it, if Rand gives any Power-magnifying items to Logain to use, it will be the fat-little-man angreal for Logain's use in the Last Battle. Rand will use the Choedan Kal and Narishma will use Callandor in a link with two of Rand's fealty-sworn Aes Sedai. Narishma drew the Sword That Is Not A Sword from the Heart of the Stone, and he'll be the one to use it when Tarmon Gaidin comes along, not Logain.</p><p><b>Burr says:</b> You make a good case.  On the other hand, &quot;will follow after&quot; does <i>not</i> CLEARLY mean &quot;will wield Callandor from now on.&quot;  For example, maybe it simply means that he will be the next leader of the Black Tower, possibly because Logain and Rand will no longer be available after the Last Battle.<br /><br /><br /> </p>


created: 2002-05-25 15:44:04
subject: What Happens to Pending Theories
body:
<p>I don't know about the rest of you, but the Theory Post is one of my favorite sections on this site. I tend to swing by here at least once a day, looking for the latest theories on anything WoT (such as the brilliant theory by borderlander on Moiraine unraveling her weave!). Thanks to Mike's amazing submission system, we can all watch the number of pending theories rise each day, and build up our hopes of reading a new, inspiring theory in the near future.<br /><br />The next day comes, and what happens? The night before, the number of pending theories was somewhere around ten or eleven, now it's zero! Number of new theories added? None.<br /><br />Considering the relative intelligence of the wotmania community, I submit that it would be IMPOSSIBLE that all of these missing theories were not up to par, that ALL of them were unworthy of being posted with the other brilliant hypotheses we already delight in reading. Which leaves us with a very simple question: Where do all these missing theories go? The answer is simple: <b><i>Mike eats them</i></b>.<br /><br />The evidence is plain and easy to corroborate. First of all, whenever Mike comes into chat, what happens? Invariably, someone offers him a drink, a wedge of cheese, a strawberry, a jauntily, (M&amp;M Maddy might offer him something a little more exotic... cough, cough), and what does he do? He takes them, but what does he EAT them? No! All the rest of us drink our drinks and eat everything else (even the jauntilys), but Mike eats NONE of them. Since Mike does not eat anything normal people eat, I submit to you that Mike is, in fact, <b><i>a robot</i></b>.<br /><br />Since Mike is clearly a robot, we must determine what HE eats - which must be something electronic. This webpage?  Clearly not... he can't undermine his own creation! wSE points? Obviously not - I tried to give him 100 a couple days ago, and he turned them down! If he ate wSE points, he certainly would have jumped on an opportunity like that.<br /><br />So what is left on this site to eat (that's electronic)?  Something that wouldn't ever be missed; something that's not Raserei or Jeordam, and comes in large quantities.  That's right - <b><i>the missing 'pending theories'</i></b>.<br /><br />Sorry people. It's not that your theories aren't good enough to be posted. Mike's just too hungry, that's all.<br /></p><p><b>Lauriana Sedai says:</b> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" />  This is just another example of the disaster that can ensue when robots suffer from compulsive over-eating.  I think that Mike has agreed to go onto one of those talk-shows and try to get over his problems, though.  Here's wishing him luck: the road to health will be long and hard, but the wotmania community is behind you, boss-man. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /> </p>


created: 2002-05-26 23:03:53
subject: Moiraine's New Warder
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<p>I apologize for the length of this theory in advance, but I think you'll find it more than worthwhile.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />******<br /><br />Well, since pretty much everyone believes that Moiraine is coming back eventually.  Although that isn't the point of this theory, it is the basis for it - so let me reiterate a couple points to try and rope in you non-believers:<br /><br />In The Fires of Heaven (page 214, hardcover), Egwene has the dream that has led everyone to believe Mat and Thom will be involved with Moiraine's eventual rescue:  <i>&quot;Mat throwing dice with blood streaming down his face, the wide brim pulled low so she could not see his wound, while Thom Merrilin put his hand into a fire to draw out the small blue stone that now dangled on Moiraine's forehead.&quot;</i>  This point has been made several times - most of you probably are very familiar with this quote.<br /><br />Less widely known is this vision of Min's from A Crown of Swords (page 543, hardcover):  <i>&quot;What good to tell him [Rand] he would almost certainly fail without a woman who was dead and gone?&quot;</i>  Now, it is possible that this could be referring to another woman.  However, it is extremely unlikely.  What other woman, besides Moiraine Damodred, has died AND was important to Rand's success?  In addition, the chapter this viewing is drawn from mentions Moiraine a peculiarly large number of times - knowing Robert Jordan, this is probably not a coincidence.<br /><br />Finally, later in this same chapter (page 546, hardcover), Min's inner monologue reveals an important clue as she sees Caraline Damodred, Moiraine's (distant?) cousin:  <i>&quot;Min sighed regretfully, but it was not as if she had really expected Moiraine to turn up alive.  <u>Moiraine was the only vision of hers that had ever failed</u>.&quot;</i>  This seems wrong, somehow...  Min's visions have been established, time and time again, as infallible.  I don't think Robert Jordan has created an exception now!  Min's vision - apparently that Moiraine would die and live again - simply has yet to be fulfilled.<br /><br />From all this evidence, I am led to believe that Moiraine is coming back.  She died, as Lanfear did - who had to have been resurrected by Shai'tan to gain a new body.  I don't know if Moiraine will recover her original body or not (I'm guessing Robert Jordan will make it happen, somehow), but that is beyond the scope of this theory.<br /><br />******<br /><br />Now that I've more or less established that Moiraine is coming back, let's consider the fact that she will likely want a Warder again.  al'Lan Mandragoran is completely out of the question - He is happily married to Nynaeve now, and I doubt that once Nynaeve assumes Lan's bond she would be willing to share him with anyone ever again.  Obviously Moiraine and Lan's bond has already been dissolved by her death, so that's not an issue either.  Some have suggested Moiraine will be stilled - which I don't believe for a second, considering Cyndane.  Even if she was, a handy Asha'man could fix her up in a jiffy.<br /><br />So, now Moiraine's coming back, and she will be able to bond a <u>new</u> Warder - which she will almost certainly want to do (due to her large amount of experience with one before...  I think she's come to depend on having a Warder around).  Who will she bond?  Some have suggested Mat, Perrin, and Thom... none of which I think is up for it.  Mat is Tuon's now and Tuon's alone, and the same for Perrin and Faile.  Neither could be a Warder and a husband to different women.  As for Thom, he's old, and still holds a grudge against Aes Sedai because of Owyn.  I don't think he would let Moiraine bond him just because she told him which Reds severed his nephew.  I'm also not in the Moiraine-getting-together-with-Thom camp, so I won't address that idea further.  So again I ask, who does this leave for Moiraine to bond?<br /><br />******<br /><br />Holding that thought for a moment, let's consider another situation which needs to be resolved - Alanna's bonding of Rand.  Rand's in a hard situation here - he doesn't like the fact that he's bonded to her (because of how she did it).  Multiple times when Rand thinks to himself that he will never trust Aes Sedai again, he specifically thinks of Alanna.  Although in recent events he has come to trust her in a limited fashion (because of her oath, I'd bet), the bond is still an awkward situation for him that he'd rather be out of.<br /><br />Alanna also would most benefit from ending the bond between herself and Rand.  Primarily because I think Elayne, Min, and Aviendha will follow through on their promise to make her &quot;wish I [Elayne] had just killed her after I lay hands on her!&quot;  (Winter's Heart, page 228, hardcover).  Alanna herself has expressed interest in ending the bond multiple times - once when she offered to pass the bond to Cadsuane, and once when Rand told her he had allowed someone else to bond him.  Therefore, Alanna should still not have any great issue with ending or passing her bond to Rand.<br /><br />This raises another question - SHOULD Rand and Alanna dissolve that bond?  It would be in their best interests in many ways, but it has already been theorized by many people that multiple Warder bonds are having a cumulative effect on Rand, giving him more of the Warder advantages than he would get by being bonded once. (<i>http://35.10.40.62/wotmania/theorypostdbtheory.asp?ID=665&amp;Category=Bonding</i>).  If this is true - as I assume it is - then Rand's many bonds may be the slim margin that saves his life at the Last Battle, and in situations before (I'm in the camp that thinks Rand will live, and Lews Therin die at Tarmon Gaidon).<br /><br />So what option does this leave?  The Aes Sedai have no problem with the voluntary passing of a bond...  if Rand asked Cadsuane to assume his bond, for example, she might be willing to do that.  However, what about Moiraine?<br /><br />******<br /><br />At this point, the point of my theory should be apparent.  I think that when Moiraine comes back, she will assume a similar position in respect to Rand as she held before her fateful battle with Lanfear - an advisor position like what Cadsuane holds.  Many of her lessons have already been learned and she would not try to guide him as before (&quot;Even the best intentioned of my sisters may well try to guide your steps as I once did,&quot; {The Fires of Heaven, 638, hardcover} ), but her experience would definitely be beneficial to Rand - not to mention the fact that Rand trusted Moiraine almost absolutely at the end.  I'm also not suggesting that Moiraine will have learned anything important from her time with the Finn...  I'm satisfied with her returning with the knowledge and experience she already had.  Anything else is a bonus.<br /><br />Since this is the most likely scenario - that Moiraine will end up becoming an advisor for Rand again - who better to be her Warder than Rand?  He is certainly able to protect her when the Source is not available (as he is a blademaster), and if she is advising him, she won't need to go off on her own without him much - eliminating the need for someone free to follow her wherever she goes.  I'm going to guess that the cumulative effect of Rand's bonds will be either discovered or theorized, and that Rand will agree for Alanna to pass her bond to Moiraine, to make things easier on everyone.  If Elayne, Aviendha, and Min could choose <u>anyone</u> else to hold Rand's bond, I think they would all choose to trust Moiraine - making that side of the equation add up nicely as well.<br /><br />******<br /><br />Comments and criticism welcome!</p><p><b>Burr says:</b> Well, I wonder if maybe you brushed off Thom too easily.  I <i>am</i> in the Moiraine-getting-together-with-Thom camp.  And his pulling her out of a &quot;fire&quot; would prove to me he is still capable of Wardering (not that I doubt his abilities much anyway.)  Your other reason for discounting Thom is that he distrusts Aes Sedai.  Does he have any more reason to distrust them than Rand?  If Rand can learn to trust Moiraine, surely Thom can.<br /><br />Still, I like your point about Alanna's bond with Rand.  I agree it would be better for everyone involved if Moiraine accepted the bond.  Hmm...do you think maybe this particular Blue would take two Warders?<br /><br /><br /> </p>


created: 2002-05-30 11:22:50
subject: Callandor
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<p>It seems to me that the general consensus on the board here is that Rand will personally use the <i>Choedan Kal</i> at Tarmon Gai'don because they are the most powerful <i>sa'angreal</i> in existance.  I have to disagree, I believe that Rand will use <i>Callandor</i> in the final battle.<br /><br />Why?  <br /><ol><li><i>Callandor</i> was the instrument to herald the arrival of the Dragon Reborn.  It has only been used by Rand 3 times:<br />&#8226; To kill Ishamael<br />&#8226; To kill the trollocs in the Stone<br />&#8226; Against the Seanchan<br /><br />But any of these could have been done with the male access key.  So why did the <i>Aes Sedai</i> decide to use <i>Callandor</i> instead of something else unless those in the Age of Legends knew more about the need for <i>Callandor</i> by the Dragon Reborn by foretelling than is currently revealed?</li><br /><br /><li>The sword is historically a symbol of power, and <i>Callandor</i> is no less so.  In the prophesies the Dragon Reborn is a destroyer and in the songs from the fourth age he is known as a protector, both of which are accomplished with a sword.  To quote from the end of <i>The Great Hunt</i>,<br /><br /><i>Let the arm of the Lord of the Dawn shelter us from the Dark, and the great sword of justice defend us.</i></li><br /><br /><li>Every time that Rand fought who he thought was the Dark One, it was always with a sword.  Further, when he cut Asmodean's link with the Dark One it was with a weave like a sword of light.</li><br /><br /><li><i>Callandor</i> is unique in that it is the only <i>angreal</i> or <i>sa'angreal</i> that we know of that has no buffer against taking in too much of the One Power.  We have learned time and again in this series of books that in Randland there is no limit to how far back in the age lace required elements can be created.  The lack of a buffer on <i>Callandor</i> will be the deciding factor in the final battle.</li><br /></ol> <br />So now that I have listed some of the key elements to <i>Callandor</i> I will try to show how it will all come together.  It is known that the Dark One's prison will either have to be mended or recreated all together after the last seals have been broken.  It is obvious that this will require immense power and will require the combined power of the <i>Choeden Kal</i>, but nothing says the Dragon Reborn has to be the one to do that.<br /><br />It is my assertion that Rand's role will be to hold the Dark One until the prison is mended/reformed, hence Egwene's dream of him walking into a dark hole in the earth.  I believe that Rand will link with Alivia (probably the strongest female channeler alive), him using <i>Callandor</i> and her using the <i>sa'angreal</i> wand used to heal Mat.  This will fit with Min's vision that Alivia will help Rand die.<br /><br />We have seen twice before the immense power available when a channeler in despair draws too much power into themselves.  The first when Lews Therin died on the Dragon Mount, and the second when Eldrene died killing all of the Dreadlords in Manetheren quite some distance away.  Now imagine the amount of <i>Saidin</i> that Rand could channel drawing too much through an <i>angreal</i> like <i>Callandor</i>.  Linked with Alivia he may be able to equal or surpass the <i>Choeden Kal</i> for a short period of time.  With a bit of poetic flair <i>Callandor</i> will shatter as Rand dies.<br /><br />How Rand comes back alive is part of a future theory! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />He who lives by the sword dies by the sword.<br /><br />Geer <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /></p><p><b>Burr says:</b> Good theory.  It would be poetic, in Rand's case.  On the other hand, if Rand pulls a Lews Therin, won't a lot of the other main characters die from the OP explosion?  It seems to me that, one way or another, they would have to be near the Bore to fix the Bore.<br /><br /><br /> </p>


created: 2002-06-01 16:49:22
subject: Loial the Ogier
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<p>Who represents Loial in mythology?<br /><br />In the Wheel of Time many of the stories characters represent one or more mythological persons.  For example we associate Rand with both the Norse god Tyr and also King Arthur.  Some semi-important characters also have mythological connections:  Galad and Gawyn.  But so far no one has come up with a match for Loial the Ogier.  I think I have in the personage of the Danish hero Ogier.<br /><br /><br />Who is Ogier the Dane?<br /><br />Ogier the Dane was born a prince of Denmark.  At birth he was surrounded by six fairies, one of those being Morgana.  Among the gifts he received were &quot;to be the bravest warrior of your times,&quot;   to have &quot;abundant opportunities to display&quot; his valor,  and to never be vanquished.  He was educated to be the perfect knight and in all arts to make him a hero.  He later became a paladin of Charlegmagne.  Ogier served faithfully until being drawn into Avalon by Morgana.  There he forgot who was and what he ever did due to a crown place on his head.  He stayed in Avalon for a hundred years and then the crown was knocked off and he regained his memory.  He returned to France to the castle where he served Charlegmagne and found they were long gone.  He chose to serve Hugh Capet against the Saracens.  The King later died and the queen wanted to marry Ogier, but Morgana returned for him.  She brought him back to Avalon.  He is in the company of his friend King Arthur whom he will return with.  (I tried to keep this brief, covering only the important points.)<br /><br />The Similarities<br /><br />In general most of the Ogier would be similar to the description above.  All Ogiers are strong and have great endurance.  Most all Ogiers are scholars believing it is not good to lose history.  Like Ogier the Dane they have the education to be a perfect knight.  In fact in the Age of Legends and in present day Seanchan, Ogiers were and are not people to cross.  Past and Present Ogiers have been soldiers.  But what makes the connection solely Loial is that he is the only Ogier that is friends with Rand (king Arthur).  Like all other Ogiers he is strong, he is a scholar, and has great endurance.  He lived in a rather peaceful place for almost 100 years before leaving to go visit Ogier groves.  Loial has shown ample bravery and has proven his valor many times.  He traveled the Ways, took off on his own to close the Manetheren Gate, outrunning hordes of trollocs, to name a few.  Not to mention Loial is quite chivalrous<br /><br />In Summary<br /><br />Both are long lived, both are knight material, both are brave, both have had chance to prove valor, both are friends of the King Arthur personage<br /><br />What does this mean?<br /><br />I believe this means there is another plotline to catch up on.  Loial still hasn't seen a grove yet and I believe like Ogier the Dane he still has to go to Avalon or T.V.  The last we heard of Loial he was skimming with an Asha'man to close all the Waygates so they couldn't be used by the badguys anymore.<br /><br />Speculation:  In the next book we may get to see some of the T.V fight and I think that Loial will make an appearance.  First, and most importantly, to close the gate.  Secondly, because deep down inside Loial wants to see the one grove that remains.  My personal theory is that while in Tar Valon, Egwene will be betrayed and Loial will save her.</p><p><b>Burr says:</b> Ah, I've been wondering how and when we might meet Loial again.  I wouldn't mind this being the case.  Loial <i>is</i> rather chivalrous, isn't he?<br /><br /><br /> </p>


