# w_comment

created: 2003-04-11 04:09:31
subject: <b>But</b>
body:
Alivia used an Angreal (Nynaeve's bracelet); that's a fact (Wh, ch.35, pg.656). <br /><br />And (Three in a Boat said this already) since Cyndane isn't sure about this (she thinks Alivia &quot;must have an Angreal&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> it's clear you can't figure out if someone channels with an Angreal. <br />Only a very high strenght can indicate the use of an Angreal as we see in this scene.


created: 2003-04-11 06:01:39
subject: <b>Wow!</b>
body:
I'm not certain this theory is true, but it should be!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I love Trillessa</font><p></p>


created: 2003-04-11 07:02:59
subject: <b>I'll try to be more logical now</b>
body:
&quot;You're entire argument is based on a 'too.'&quot; Wrong, the basis for my argument stretches over many of the books.<br /><br />&quot;You then just ignore things I bring up.&quot; Wrong again, and somewhat unfair this time, for all of these posts I made - minus the first one - were based on good points you brought up.<br /><br />&quot;When Verin's little group face Granedal, they're in exactly the same situation.&quot; No, look at this quote from the Verin battle: &quot;Using the full strength of her circle, she wove her shield, and watched aghast as it rebounded. The woman was already embracing saidar, though no light shone around her, and she was immensely strong!&quot; No light shone around her! Verin couldn't even tell that she could channel; that is hardly the same situation.<br /><br />&quot;IF it was possible to judge her strength separately from the angreal, Verin would have done it, and wouldn't be in such awe (given that she's been around Alivia and Nynaeve so much).&quot; Yes Verin would have done it, but Greandal was hiding her ability to channel so Verin couldn't see anything.<br /><br />&quot;So until you explain just HOW Cyndane could possibly judge Alivia's strength without an angreal, then there's no point in the rest of your argument as it all becomes impossible.&quot; Sa'angreal are nothing but powerful angreal. The example I gave in the White Tower was with the Aes Sedai using a powerfull sa'angreal. There is no reason to believe that an angreal would work any differently than a sa'angreal. (Remember these words are in the old tongue and likely mean something like &quot;power-amplifier&quot; and &quot;really good power-amplifier&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> I havn't been able to find an example of someone using an angreal and someone looking at their glow yet, but, don't worry, I'm still looking.<br /><br />&quot;And an explanation that Lanfear will have faced angreal wielding women before and therefore can just tell, isn't very good.&quot; That wasn't my intent at all. This observation was based on the example with the sa'angreal. Cyndane is very strong in the power, which means her senses are also very sharp. (The stronger you are in the power, the better you can sense people channeling.) I was pointing out that she spent her whole carreer working with the power and objects of the power, she should understand how angreal work. The main point I was making there is that Lanfear would know that if someone is using two or three times as much of the power than she could handle, they have to be using an angreal. She wouldn't even consider that they could do that unaided.<br /><br />Your point two (sorry, little too much to reproduce) is a little far fetched I think. Lanfear needed an angreal to take Rand on, (before you say it, I know Rand had an angreal too <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />) and Rand - technically Lews Therin - still thought that he could finish her off if he just used some of the things she was trying to use against him. *This was Rand in The Fires of Heaven by the way, so he wasn't even at full strength yet.* We know that Rand in The Fires of Heaven was as strong as six linked Aes Sedai. Nynaeve thinks to herself in The Dragon Reborn that she could handle half the amount of the power that ten Aes Sedai with a sa'angreal could. (Yes, ten Aes Sedai and one of them using the sa'angreal, I was sceptical too, but she does think it.) This makes some sense because we know that when people link together their whole strengths are not added together. Recapping, Lanfear = Six Aes Sedai and Nynaeve(Dragon Reborn) = .5(Ten Aes Sedai+sa'angreal). Just looking at the numbers here we can tell that if Nynaeve doubled her power she would be stronger than Lanfear. That is Nynaeve in The Dragon Reborn. She gains strength as the series progresses and is largly overshadowed by Alivia. See where I'm going with this? Alivia, regardless of whether or not she was stronger than Lanfear, would have been two or three times her strength with the angreal. So I think we should be able to leave that part out of the discussion.<br /><br />&quot;You say you're not used to arguing&quot; - sorry, what I meant by that was this is the first time I have posted more than once on the same subject.<br /><br />To Sir Jim, Lord of Minutia, that was actually the point of this thread I think...lol. I don't believe that there is a set level of strength in the power that no one can pass. Just because I don't think it is likely doesn't mean it is false, however. I think that the author of this theory was right that Lanfear asked the fox people to be more powerful than any other female channeler she met. I think that would adequately explain her surprise in having met a channeler more powerful than her.<br /><br />If I missed responding to something, kindly point it out, I have to go now, so I can't check.<br /><br />


created: 2003-04-11 08:37:21
subject: <b>Re:</b>
body:
&quot;Wrong, the basis for my argument stretches over many of the books.&quot;<br /><br />But the clincher is the too, why the too's there, why it would be there for any other reason, and we have another reason now.<br /><br />&quot;Wrong again, and somewhat unfair this time, for all of these posts I made - minus the first one - were based on good points you brought up.&quot;<br /><br />Perhaps you're not conciously doing it, but you still are doing it, even in the last post.<br /><br />&quot;No, look at this quote from the Verin battle: &quot;Using the full strength of her circle, she wove her shield, and watched aghast as it rebounded. The woman was already embracing saidar, though no light shone around her, and she was immensely strong!&quot; No light shone around her! Verin couldn't even tell that she could channel; that is hardly the same situation.&quot;<br /><br />It's not exactly the same situation, yet it's the same as far as we need it to be. The glow isn't important in the situation as clearly Cyndane could not see a brighter glow to indicate an angreal. Ignore that situation though if it's not good enough. We still haven't seen a brighter glow from an angreal than the one around a woman and IF there was one, Cyndane would have seen it, which she clearly did not.<br /><br />&quot;Yes Verin would have done it, but Greandal was hiding her ability to channel so Verin couldn't see anything.&quot;<br /><br />Yeah, I forgot she would be hiding her ability to channel.<br /><br />&quot;Sa'angreal are nothing but powerful angreal. The example I gave in the White Tower was with the Aes Sedai using a powerfull sa'angreal. There is no reason to believe that an angreal would work any differently than a sa'angreal. (Remember these words are in the old tongue and likely mean something like &quot;power-amplifier&quot; and &quot;really good power-amplifier&quot; I havn't been able to find an example of someone using an angreal and someone looking at their glow yet, but, don't worry, I'm still looking.&quot;<br /><br />Yes, sa'angreal are just very powerful angreal, but that doesn't mean there can't be differences in the way they give off light. Perhaps there is a scale all the way through angreal and up to sa'angreal. The weakest angreal have such a weak light that it's completely drowned out by the woman's glow. The strongest angreal blends in with the woman's glow. The weakest sa'angreal is slightly brighter than the glow and therefore noticable, while the strongest sa'angreal is so bright that it practically overshadows (not a great word to use with lights, but you get the point) the glow. That's not exactly very far fetched. Whatever the case, even if there are examples of being able to see a glow from an angreal (and I don't believe there are), it doesn't matter, because Cyndane clearly didn;t see one around Alivia's angreal.<br /><br />&quot;That wasn't my intent at all. This observation was based on the example with the sa'angreal. Cyndane is very strong in the power, which means her senses are also very sharp. (The stronger you are in the power, the better you can sense people channeling.)&quot;<br /><br />That's true, but we know from the chapter that no matter how good she is, she was too far away to feel Alivia's power, she could only judge that when she was hit by it.<br /><br />&quot;I was pointing out that she spent her whole carreer working with the power and objects of the power, she should understand how angreal work. The main point I was making there is that Lanfear would know that if someone is using two or three times as much of the power than she could handle, they have to be using an angreal. She wouldn't even consider that they could do that unaided.&quot;<br /><br />As I've said, it was the shock of being hit by such power from this woman. As far as Cyndane is concerned, there is no woman in this Age who even comes close to her power, let alone Lanfear's. Not only that, but angreal are incredibly hard to get hold of. The ones that are known (to Cyndane) are either from Rhuidean, The White Tower or The Stone. This woman facing her clearly isn't an Aes Sedai so she couldn't get an angreal from the Tower, she isn't Aiel so chances of her getting one from Rhuidean are very slim and no one gets into the Stone, let alone some wilder. Hell, if she's the wilder Cyndane thinks she is, she wouldn't even know how to use an angreal! So Cyndane expects nothing from this woman, not even the ability to channel. That alone would have been a small shock, but not enough to throw someone like her. Bu there's more. She attacks and her weave falls apart. THAT would certainly be more of a shock, she's never come across this before even in her own Age, let alone this backwards time. This is swiftly followed by being hit by the sort of power she'd rarely have been struck by in her own Age, from this (what she believes to be) wilder. Is it any wonder she's shocked? It's not like it took more than a second for her to come to her senses and realise the woman must have an angreal!<br /><br />&quot;Your point two (sorry, little too much to reproduce) is a little far fetched I think. Lanfear needed an angreal to take Rand on, (before you say it, I know Rand had an angreal too ) and Rand - technically Lews Therin - still thought that he could finish her off if he just used some of the things she was trying to use against him. *This was Rand in The Fires of Heaven by the way, so he wasn't even at full strength yet.*&quot;<br /><br />I don;t have the book at hand, but I'm not sure LTT thought he could finish her off by using some of the things she was using against him, but rather exploiting her weaknesses that he knew from the past. Some of those might have been the same as weaves Lanfear was using I suppose.<br /><br />&quot;We know that Rand in The Fires of Heaven was as strong as six linked Aes Sedai. Nynaeve thinks to herself in The Dragon Reborn that she could handle half the amount of the power that ten Aes Sedai with a sa'angreal could. (Yes, ten Aes Sedai and one of them using the sa'angreal, I was sceptical too, but she does think it.) This makes some sense because we know that when people link together their whole strengths are not added together. Recapping, Lanfear = Six Aes Sedai and Nynaeve(Dragon Reborn) = .5(Ten Aes Sedai+sa'angreal). Just looking at the numbers here we can tell that if Nynaeve doubled her power she would be stronger than Lanfear. That is Nynaeve in The Dragon Reborn. She gains strength as the series progresses and is largly overshadowed by Alivia. See where I'm going with this? Alivia, regardless of whether or not she was stronger than Lanfear, would have been two or three times her strength with the angreal. So I think we should be able to leave that part out of the discussion.&quot;<br /><br />You know, there are a hell of a lot of inconsistencies in strengths in the Power in these books. I think Jordan's really screwed up on this point, though I don't suppose he imagined we'd ever analyze it so much. Nynaeve thinking she could hold half of all that power in TDR isn't a mistake though, as far as I can tell. I think she just doesn't realise quite how much is being used. There's no way that Rand, at the end of FoH, isn't as strong as Nynaeve was during TDR. I'd be shocked if he wasn't stronger in fact. Say Rand really could only take on 6 linked Aes Sedai. Nynave thinks she can take on 5 Aes Sedai (powerful Ses Sedai for their time) with (if I remember correctly) the most powerful sa'angreal the Tower has in it's possession. Now I think I'm not giving such a sa'angreal enough power here, but let's say it multiplies a persons strength by 10. It's the equivalent of 14 Aes Sedai, which would put her at over twice Rand's strength. There's no way. Another thing you might want to look at for the inconsistencies is the chapter in TSR where Rand channels against Egwene and Elayne. I wish I had the books with me, but I remember that Egwene says that channeling two weaves is more than just double the effort of channeling one, and 3 is more than double the effort of 2. And so on. I think she suspected Rand was channeling a dozen weaves at once, I believe she said at least. If you work it all out, her only handling 3-4 weaves, while Rand (who hasn't even had any training so is probably behind Egwene in terms of how far along they are) can handle a dozen puts him absolutely MILES ahead in terms of the amount of power he can hold. The point being that while Nynaeve is clearly stronger than Elayne and Egwene, she's never spoken of or shown to be THAT much stronger.<br /><br />Anyhow, I'm kind of writing a lot to make a simple point, you really can't rely on strength's in the power in these books unless people are actually compared to each other.<br /><br />Let's try to make this simple again, because we're going all over the place with arguments now! We're trying to argue who is stronger here, unaided. Lanfear, or Alivia. Your argument is that Alivia is stronger even without an angreal. My argument is she is only stronger with an angreal. Your main argument at the moment seems to be that if someone was THAT strong, it should be obvious to Cyndane IMMEDIATELY that she had an angreal. My argument is that it was ALMOST immediately apparent to her, but it is unsurprising that she was shocked for that brief instant. Then there's my argument that Cyndane COULDN'T judge Alivia's strength without an angreal, from what we've been told in these books, it's just not possible. She's not close enough to sense that Alivia can channel, so she can't judge it. If you can't give me a way for Cyndane to judge Alivia's strength without an angreal, we really can't say that she is stronger than Lanfear was. I think maybe you've realised this, which is why you've brought up the whole One Power thing with others, comparing them, but as I've shown, that's flawed.


created: 2003-04-11 11:11:18
subject: <b>about Nynaeve</b>
body:
You all should really check quotes before posting about things like this.  In tDR, CH Healing, Nynaeve says, &quot;I do <b>not</b> think I could handle half that much of the Power.&quot;(emphasis added)  So Nynaeve is not as strong as 5 AS with a sa'angreal.  <br /><br />Also, I believe you're missing a key point Deathwatchbob, Cyndane does not see an extra glow on Alivia's hand, Nynaeve's bracelet angreal, so therefore she has to reason out that Alivia is using an angreal.  That's all the quote is, nothing more than simple deduction, since Alivia couldn't be stronger than Lanfear was she must have an angreal, which he did.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sir Jim<br />Lord of Minutia&#8482;<br />King of WoT MB Posts&#8482;<br /><br />Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-04-11 16:55:53
subject: <b>Thanks for that Jim</b>
body:
I try to check quotes when I'm unsure, and I would have with that one but the books aren't near me.<br /><br />I believe we have become confused because the quote IS meant to show Nynaeve is very strong, but not because she could hold that much power, rather that she would even attempt to compare herself to such an amount. I think I'm remembering it correctly now.<br /><br />There's still some pretty big inconsistencies in One Power comparisons though. If RJ ever tours the UK again (not likely after Orbit broke the release date) I'm going to make some notes and ask him about it. No doubt he'll get angry at me like he always does when someone asks a reasonable question which he doesn't have an answer for.


created: 2003-04-14 16:37:21
subject: <b>Good theory,but it has some flaws</b>
body:
That&#8217;s a very good theory,but I don&#8217;t think it&#8217;s true.There&#8217;s several reasons for that:<br /> 1)If Lanfear has gained a lot of strenght after she visited the Finns in the AOW,don&#8217;t you think that the other Aes Sedai should&#8217;ve noticed that and asked her all sorts of questions about it.Every Forsaken for example would&#8217;ve wanted to do the same,and the DO should&#8217;ve made Lanfear to share the secret with the others so he can have then a much stronger bunch of Forsaken.At least some of them should&#8217;ve thought about the way Lanfear became so strong in their PoV&#8217;s in the series when they think about her,but that hasn&#8217;t happened.<br /> 2) &#8220;That was impossible; no woman could be stronger.&quot;<br /> I think that your read too much into this.Lanfear&#8217;s just over-confident,and self centered egocentric person.And she hasn&#8217;t seen someone as strong as her all her life,through the AoW,when supposedly the channelers were much stronger than now.<br /> 3)It&#8217;s not so strange at all to have a person which has it all like Lanfear in the world of WoT-think about Rand,Nynaeve,Egwene,Elayne,who are also very strong in the Power,very attractive,have special talents,and so on.In the real world it would&#8217;ve been a very unlikely coincidence,but that&#8217;s a fantasy novel after <br />all.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Proud member of the Egweenie Roasters Club</font><p></p>


created: 2003-04-14 20:28:47
subject: <b>An alternate Explanation?</b>
body:
I know this won't cover off why she has a new body, but is it possible that Lanfear had never been to *finnland, and when she was sent through channeling she was severed?  Then she could wish to be able to channel again, at which point they kill her knowing the DO will ressurect her in a channelers body.  OR she could have been killed going through and just ressurected in a weaker channelers body (if their wasn't any female stronger than Lanfear before, how could they resurrect her in a body of equal strength).  ALSO (and i don't know how this would work with the new body) maybe she was stilled and a Black Sister who has learned N's healing &quot;reconnected her&quot;.<br /><br />On another note, I don't see any difficulty with Lanfear being exceptionally attractive AND the strongest channeler; if you think about it, all of RJ's channeling females who are strong in the power are super-hot...  Aviendha, Elayne, Nyn (despite her attitude...), etc.  Maybe to be a strong channeler, you have to be drop dead gorgeous.<br /><br />I haven't thought this out too much, but maybe it'll be a little fuel to the fire.  Nice theory though, i enjoyed readign it.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Of course, that's just my opinion.  I could be wrong.<br /><br />&quot;Life is like WoT... You never know when it's gonna end.&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2003-04-15 12:37:52
subject: <b>As one of the local wot experts here...</b>
body:
...I'm definitely agreeing with Three in a Boat.  I have reread that section several times, and came to the understanding that he did as well.<br /><br />It makes more sense grammatically than what you are arguing, as well.<br /><br />Make sure to takes the quotes in their full context.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Vercingetorix<br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/803.gif" /><br />Theory Post Admin<br /><br />I went to the doctor the other day and all he did was drain some blood from my neck.  Don't ever go to Doctor Acula.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-04-16 19:17:47
subject: <b>I disagree</b>
body:
I don't believe Lanfear ever visited the *Fins before, but that she was born as beautiful as she was and as strong.  As was pointed out, this is fantasy.  Beauty and power go together in fantasy.  I'm sure she knew about the fins, but did not know the price for wishes - death.  She fell through, got her three wishes, was killed, and resurrected by the DO and put in the mind trap either because of her wishes, or because she provided Rand with training through Asmodean.<br />I only speculate on ONE of her wishes - that being that she could get revenge on Rand by killing Asmodean, whom she had threatened previously (if I remember correctly), and who was teaching Rand.  <br />Now, if the DO wants Rand on his side and Asmo was teaching Rand how to survive, then Lanfear would be in more than hot water for killing Asmo before he'd taught Rand all that he could - she would be punished by being reincarnated into a &quot;lesser&quot; body and then trapped and forced to serve someone the DO trusted.  Or, perhaps she was trapped merely because she provided Asmodean to Rand.  Moggy was punished partly because she was tcaptured and gave away a lot of powerful information.  <br />I think the fins did something else to Lanfear before they killed her which reduced her strength in the power.  That, or something about the new body she got made her weaker.<br /><br />As for Alivia - Lanfear was arrogant and thought ALL channelers of this age untrained, so she never put forth the effort to study them.  In her age there WAS nobody stronger than her, but in this age, due to seperate cultures, and &quot;inbreeding&quot; (like in the Two Rivers where all the girls were remarkably strong) the ability to be stronger in the power than anyone in the AoL naturally occured.  This would shock Lanfear, certainly.<br /><br />Just my two cents.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /> Survivor of Historical Inquizition ... barely <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Who can say if I've been changed for the better, but because I knew you I have been changed for good -- Wicked<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-04-19 19:08:36
subject: <b>i disagree</b>
body:
once you go through the gateway you can't go through again and moraine pushed them both through so there you go it just isn't possible.


created: 2003-04-20 18:10:04
subject: <b>Lanfear's source of power</b>
body:
Alivia could not be stronger than Lanfear naturally.  We know from Alivia's surprise at seeing the disguised Lanfear hiding her ability to channel, that Alivia didn't know how to hide or disguise her own strength.  Alivia couldn't have been walking around with more than Lanfear's strength easily noticeable to the other Aes Sedia, not without someone making a comment about it at some point in the series!<br /><br />Lanfear could not have changed her appearance or height at any point in the past without the other forsaken and LTT knowing she did.  They certainly would comment upon seeing Cyndane.<br /><br />Comments about Sharina seem to indicate that there is a limit to strength of the power, and that it is well known.  I have also believed Lanfear somehow surpassed this limit, which explains why she is the most powerful, and why it is impossible anyone is stronger.  Cyane has Lanfear's original strength, but it didn't nessasarily change as a result of a wish.  Lanfear was a researcher, and could have found another way.<br /><br />If it were easy to trick the finns into granting wishes, especially for more power, Lanfear would not be unique - all the forsaken would have done it.  More likely Lanfear found another way.  Also, I think Lanfear would have wished LTT's love, fame, or other things if she had the chance.


created: 2003-04-23 00:32:12
subject: <b>I had a thought....</b>
body:
Assuming that this theory is true, and I'm not really leaning one or the other on it, what did Lanfear have to give up? Perhaps she cheated, as you say, but even then I would think they exact some sort of payment. However, if she didn't cheat or if they did take payment, what could it have been?<br /><br />We all know what Mat had to pay for his 'wishes'. Just an idle thought here, but it seems to me what she would have to give up would be something very dear to her. Perhaps the love of Lews Therin?<br /><br />Again, assuming that this theory is true, we really have no idea when she would have entered the doorframe, it could have before or after she lost his love. But I think it was before. There's a lot of assumptions here, but it was just a thought.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Brown and Gold, baby!<br />UW Cowboys</font><p></p>


created: 2003-04-29 11:24:52
subject: <b>well then</b>
body:
This thread got just a wee bit off topic heh.<br /><br />On the one hand I really kind of like the theory that started this.  If Lanfear visited the Finn back in the age of legends via some other means than this doorway...tower of genji perhaps...and was granted some wishes such as greater strength in the power and stunning beauty it would make sense.  The 2 things she wanted most were unrivaled power (she was even willing to challenge the D.O. with the chodan kal) and the love of Lews Therin (what better way in her mind than ultimate beauty?)  If there was a third wish it isn't something quite so obvious as these 2 possibilities.<br /><br />Having visited them in another way in the past the redstone doorway would still be useable for her when she is pushed through.  Maybe she DID cheat them in the past and as punishment when she is back in their hands they strip her of her wishes.  Maybe it is possible to go back to Finnland by other means than the one you used first but doing so negates all that you had wished for?  In either case...or even in some other case I haven't thought of that would mean Lanfear lost her wishes....she would return to the world reduced in power and back to her old not nearly so stunning body.<br /><br />On the one hand I actually don't believe that this theory...as interesting as it is, is really going to hold water.  I think that Lanfear simply died as a result of being pushed into the doorway and was ressurected.  The one quote mentioned above about Alivia being stronger than her even before she was held by the Aelfin is the single thing that gives me pause and makes me consider this to be a viable theory though.  I feel that if this was true, however, that Lanfear as Cyndane has been in enough of the story that some more details should have been mentioned by now...but then again maybe that is just because there is more to come on the story of Moraine and RJ doesn't want to let the cat out of the bag on just what occurred in that doorway just yet.<br /><br />So anyway...I was a firm believer that Lanfear died plain and simple...no intricate story involved.  Now after reading this through I am on the fence.  Good theory whether it proves to be true or not =)


created: 2003-04-29 11:40:33
subject: <b>oops</b>
body:
Almost as soon as I posted I had another thought...this board needs an edit feature <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Another tantalizing tidbit that adds to the validity of this theory is something that isn't evident in the story to any of the characters but we as readers are at least somewhat privy to it.  We assume....mainly due to viewings by Min....that somewhere down the road Moiraine will make a comeback.  The Dark One has shown himself fully capable and willing to ressurect his fallen chosen into new bodies....I doubt that the same holds true for the Light as the old inhabitants of those bodies must obviously die.  Not a very &quot;good&quot; thing to do so if Moiraine was truly dead then she would be gone for good.<br /><br />Following that logic....if Moiraine is coming back then she can't be dead.  If SHE isn't dead....then Lanfear probably didn't die either.  If Lanfear didn't die then this theory is the only explanation for the changes in her looks and strength in the power.<br /><br />Hopefully it will all come clear in the next book...along with about 797987977 other things ;o


created: 2003-05-02 11:08:49
subject: <b>err....maybe it was just a side effect of the ter'angreal?</b>
body:
myself, i like the theory proposed 'cos it is quite comprehensive. but i also find it a little complicated.<br /><br />i think lanfear's ability to channel was a little warped after she came out. after all, she had been to another world and back. it might just be the side effects. maybe she channelled in the ter'angreal? remember the ter'angreal the accepted had to go thru, nynaeve was told that channeling in it could cause a woman to be stilled. plus, we have pretty good evidence that she *would* have channeled at moiraine when they both went thru the ter'angreal. that may have affected her ability to channel in more ways than one.<br /><br />what do the rest of you think?


created: 2004-05-06 18:05:19
subject: <b>Point</b>
body:
I can't believe no one's made this point yet ... By all the evidence so far , Cyndane was the victor in her clash with Alivia. All the above theories make it seem as if Alivia with her angreal pulverised Cyndane. Let's not forget whose arm was singed to the bone. I admit that we don't know if Cyndane is injured but we do know she isn't dead - Alivia never mentioned it and neither did Cadusane (who mentioned Dashiva's death).<br /><br />Apart from this , the books generally create the vibe that no one was ever stronger than or equal to Lanfear. It is never said outright but it is implied in several places in the series. It is the same with Rand ... he is as strong as is possible. It's never really said outright but implied. <br /><br />I also think it's stupid to try and equalise all the channellers on the 21-point system. Just because Alivia is markedly stronger than Nynaeve means nothing. This could put her on the same level as Semirhage and Mesanna , below them , at Graendal's level , or Lanfear's or anywhere in between. For all we know Lanfear was 5 times stronger than Graendal and a 100 times stronger than Moghedien ... you cannot say otherwise. The only fair comparisons are between Nynaeve and Moghedien , and between Mesaana and Semirhage who have factual comparisons between them. <br /><br />Cyndane is weaker than Lanfear and this still shocks Graendal who says that level of strength was even uncommon in men and very rare in women. So for Alivia to have Lanfear's strength would be extremely unlikely. I mean , how many Ashaman are as strong as Rand. None ... Taim and Logain are close so they might be the &quot;Graendal&quot; or &quot;Cyndane&quot; strength. Only Ishamael equalled Rand/Lews Therin. <br /><br />Thanks<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">A One Power researcher<br />Defender of Lanfear<br />Grand Ninja-Nae'blis to be feared <br />Original Warder to Isa <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br />New Warder to Nossie <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />Toy to Seriana <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/winky.gif" border="0" /><br />Mystified by a Fan <br />Bonded Phelix - I was young, it happened so fast.</font><p></p>


created: 2004-05-09 20:18:29
subject: <b>i don't think its that complicated</b>
body:
how about: Lanfear was stilled (several easy ways that could have happened) and then died (also several easy ways that could happen.) After being brought back to life by the DO, Moghedien Healed her stilling (makes sense because Moghedien was still in Salidar when Nynaeve figured out how, and now Moghedien and Cyndane are hanging out). Since when ur Healed (reattached?) by another woman u lose some of ur strength in the Power it explains Cyndane being relatively weaker. That seems fine and very likely to me. <br /><br />As for the DO not being able to get her soul while shes in Finnland, I don't see why that's a problem. the DO is outside the Pattern, so he can probably touch all the worlds equally, at least to the extent of grabbing a dead soul.<br /><br />~SuperN00b that knows nothing and hasnt even finished reading the books twice yet...but thinks hes smart...<br /><br />P.S. does RJ have something against Finnish people?


created: 2004-06-21 16:41:33
subject: <b>Lanfears power loss</b>
body:
I agree with this theory to the point that maybe Lanfear wished to be the most powerful sadiar channeler in her time.<br />But as for the beaty, I seem to recall rand saying in one of the books where he is done fighting Asmo that he remembers holding and kidding around with Lanfear when LTT and she were young and he doesn't say that she looked any different then. <br />But as far as her wishing she was the strongest channeler then I can see the connection. I also think that she may have got the ability to dreamwalk naturally becuase Rand can remember how it was for them ( him and her) to revel in there new found powers as they were growing up together.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Egwene Fan  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/egwene.gif" border="0" /><br />Elaida will fall!!! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /> <br />Egwene is meant to rule the White Tower and even Rand will know her fury!! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-07-24 02:32:13
subject: <b>Another way to Finnland? Portal Stones!</b>
body:
I like the theory. I think it's a possibility that had not occured to me. Sorry if this is redundant (I didn't read all the comments), but some had pointed out the problem of Lanfear getting in twice. To do so she would have had to use the ToG. While this is one way, I think Portal Stones are another. She is very knowledgeable, and we already know what the symbol would be. The Stones were said to connect to all worlds.<br /><br />Peace.<br /><br />


created: 2004-07-30 14:56:28
subject: <b>MAYBE</b>
body:
Your theory is good but i think that lanfear was reincarnated as cyndane (body only) because only that would really explain why her name changed and she now served Moridin, I think that her strength in the one power was similiar to moiraines while moiraine was channeling through the bracelet angreal and that somehow they switched strengths<br />It is also unlikely that Lanfear was actually  the strongest channeler a female could be because if that were so then why was she only a researcher in the time of legends?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /> lives <br />&quot;the <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> weaves as the <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> wills&quot;<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-08-21 18:54:33
subject: <b>Brilliant</b>
body:
I read this theory a year ago and I still think it's the best theory about WOT I've ever read. In fact , I use it as the base for all my thoughts regarding Lanfear and Cyndane. Congratulations.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">A One Power researcher<br />Defender of Lanfear<br />Grand Ninja-Nae'blis to be feared <br />Original Warder to Isa <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br />New Warder to Nossie <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />Toy to Seriana <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/winky.gif" border="0" /><br />Mystified by a Fan <br />Bonded Phelix - I was young, it happened so fast.</font><p></p>


created: 2004-09-09 06:45:39
subject: <b>Lanfears ego</b>
body:
Well, the word 'impossible' also could mean that Cynd/Lanf just doesn't believe there could be a stronger channeler... and she'd be just wrong.<br />Lanfear seems the kind of woman with an ego you could fit the world in.<br /><br />So it could be simply that Lanfear was stilled, got healed by a female channeler (because it's already pretty much proven that only healing from the opposite sex can fully restore the channeling ability) maybe even Moiraine herself! (though Mo's healing-ability is never quite actually described) Lanfear escaped Finnland and died somehow. (she did spent some time there she says so she doesn't die immediately)<br />The DO resurrects Lanfear as Cyndane and considerately weaker in channeling.<br />Now she meets an AS of this age and just doesn't believe some-one can be stronger.<br />IMHO it's just Cynd/Lanf's ego talking.


created: 2004-09-09 18:42:28
subject: <b>I think most of you are misreading the &quot;Alivia was stronger&quot; part</b>
body:
First of all, I want to point something out. At that point, Alivia had an angreal. The next sentence goes something like, &quot;No, she must have an angreal too!&quot; Lanfear is sensing Alivia at her current strength, with the angreal. Women can tell how strong other women are, yes, however, I think you have to be closer. Case in point, the whole planet could feel how much Nynaeave was holding. However, do you really think everyone immediately knew what Nynaeave's potential was? No. Thus, Lanfear's comments could be of her thinking of that with Alivia holding the angreal.<br /><br />Now, still, we know Alivia's a powerhouse. One that is so much stronger than Nynaeave that its almost impossible to believe. However, Lanfear was probably the same to Moghedian. Lanfear had a significant reduction and is still stronger than the strongest female, Graendal, who in turn, is much stronger than Mog. Now, that's impressive. Very. In the AoL, I bet more people knew about strength, especially Lanfear. People knew LTT and Ishamael were the top of the top of the top. They knew the other Forsaken men were close also. Now, Lanfear's pretty knowledgeable. And, we know of at least 2 men who were the top of the top-Rand and Ishamael. Now, let's show Lanfear. We know of no other woman who was stronger. Yet, from Graendal's point of view, people stronger than her, men were uncommon, and women were rare. And Lanfear's 2-3 levels above that. And, obviously, other women were. There were thousands, possibly millions of channelers back then. And, in all the comparisons ever, Lanfear was the strongest. Thus, I believe, Lanfear was the pinnacle of female strength. Thus, the statement, no woman COULD be stronger is absolutely true. Can any person be stronger than Rand and Ishamael? I believe all will agree when I say no. Thus the way with Lanfear. She knows the strongest a woman can be, and she is it.<br /><br />I used to believe this theory, but not sure if I still do. Regardless, its a great theory, and one I've mentioned many times. Keep up the good work!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Check out my WoT(ish) fanfic! Tentatively entitled, Sum of All Worlds, join Scimitar the Dreadlord as he begins an epic journey throughout the Worlds!<br /><br />http://www.worldofamadman.com/viewtopic.php?t=1023<br />Four of twelve updates finished.</font><p></p>


created: 2004-09-09 21:49:56
subject: <b>Minor point</b>
body:
It is commonly accepted that Moghedian is stronger than Lanfear in TAR, but never confronted her because, well, she's Moghedian and she's Lanfear (I believe this is stated several times all over the place but why look stuff up when you can suppose). Then again Moggy was beat by Ny in TAR, so a fat lot of good that did.


created: 2004-09-10 01:55:16
subject: <b>lanfear stilled</b>
body:
This is an interesting theory, but I tend to think Lanfear was stilled, and in being healed, is only a fraction of her own strength.<br /><br />The other possibility is that the &quot;price&quot; extracted for setting her free (i.e. Matt's hanging) was some of her channeling strength.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Show me the Frangipani.</font><p></p>


created: 2004-09-10 02:39:27
subject: <b>Very good theory except for one thing</b>
body:
You can't go through the doorways twice. As such, if she visited the Finn before, it <i>had</i> to be through the Tower of Ghenji. Now, if she did that, then this theory begins to have a great deal of merit. But without that, it falls apart. I don't agree with it all the same. It appears to complicate things a tad when there's bound to be a simpler explanation. However, it is very good theory and could very well be correct.<br /><br />Very good theory except for one thing<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Kalessin</font><p></p>


created: 2004-09-10 03:46:38
subject: <b>I agree</b>
body:
I like this theory and in truth something similar went through my mind when i read Cyndane's POV in Winter's Heart.  The only thing that I really differ with is what one of her wishes might have been.  <br /><br />Instead of wishing to be a dreamer i think she may have wished to be able to see, at least, the weaves of saidin.  It was during a reread of FoH that made me consider the possibility.  When Lanfear was attacking Rand by the docks of Cairhien she was able to slice apart all of his weavings of air.  They battled using their angreals so there were many weavings, Rand weaves clubs of air and tries to reach her by any angle but she cuts them before they can even stir one hair on her head.  Rand even thinks about her cutting them as if she could see them.  When Rand cuts her weaves its after they are affecting him or when he is defending his link to saidin, but even then he is slow in cutting her weaves.<br /><br />As for the doorway, Lanfear didn't go in by herself, she was grappling with Moraine when they fell through possibly even sharing the power of the angreal which in a way connects them.  That could even explain partly why the doorway was destroyed, the rules or treaty was broken when Lanfear managed to enter again.  Remember it survived being near a conflict involving the male Choeden Kal in Rhuidin.<br /><br />I am not sure it would be enough to enter the Tower of Ghenji.  The doorways were part of some arrangement with the finns, they had rules that had to be followed and obeyed.  The tower seemed designed to keep people seperated from the finns.  Going through the Tower of Ghenji would at least require you to fight to earn your answers or wishes.


created: 2004-10-05 07:21:50
subject: <b>Still stilling</b>
body:
Like the comment from ajah, I also tend to believe it was caused by stilling and then being healed. So far, in the series there has been only one way to become reduced in the power and the stilling and being healed was it, so I'm for sticking with that fact. I don't think RJ goes about explaining the reduced power in Siuan and Leane and then suddenly writes a second explanation for Cyndane. <br /><br />Now what makes it interesting is the fact that Cyndane obviously doesn't know why she's reduced in strength. And that one is reduced in channeling by being healed by the opposite sex.<br /><br />So when exactly was Lanf/Cyndy stilled and who healed her ?


created: 2004-10-05 07:38:21
subject: <b>my bad</b>
body:
Same sex... i meant same sex!! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/blush.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />So... could it be... Moiraine ??? It's never really revealed anywhere how strong a healer Moiraine exactly is, is there?


created: 2005-02-18 17:58:04
subject: <b>good,</b>
body:
most of this might already have been said, as I only really skimmed the board...<br /><br />In regards to going in twice, We might assume its going in that stops you from coming in again. what might be more acurate would be paying a price is what stops you from coming in once more. As Lanfear might have cheated and payed no price, she could come out again.<br /><br />The second time in, she would have died, but, as she was inside, she was given wishes. the Finn were looking out for cheating, and she couldnt get away with anything. she wished to live, and the price was her being restored to her original form and power. why her name is cyndane, instead of Mierin (is that how its spelled?), i dont know.<br /><br />Speaking of cheating, i must wonder, how could she cheat? Even Lanfear, at that time only mierin, isnt that powerful...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">-Sabin<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-03-23 20:55:43
subject: <b>Brilliant!</b>
body:
Just a thought to add, Lanfear was a scientist.<br />Isnt it possible that she was good at TAR before and that she CREATED the doorway Ter'angreal?<br />I liked your ideas thought, but if this is true, i wonder what her third wish was? Perhaps for Lews Therin to love her?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">The Wotmaniac currntly known as &quot;Taint Bearer&quot;<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <i>If you ever catch on fire, try to avoid looking in a mirror, because I bet that will really throw you into a panic.</i> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Came in 13th place in the Wotmania Hunt 2005 with 3790 points!<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-04-21 13:24:52
subject: <b>Doubtful</b>
body:
I disagree completely. I dont think the Aelfin would take away any wishes you had previously got. Besides if she had been in there before she could not have gone back. I think that as punishment for being of the shadow she was stilled. Then &quot;healed&quot; by another female channeler(some black Ajah rebels must know how by now and may have told a forsaken) and so her power is greatly reduced as Siuan and Leane's were. But that is all irrelevant as I believe that Cyndayne is actually Moraine as Liandrin would have never escaped the aelfin at all. This would explain why none of the forsaken recognize her besides noone else would either right away as she would have reverted back to youth. well that is my 2 cents<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /><font color="Red">You Are Now In The Presence Of High Lord Omega... BOW YOUR HEAD!!</font><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-07 18:16:23
subject: <b>not cheating</b>
body:
she might not have cheated. She could have set the price before she asked her wishes. If she was really smart this is what she would have done.


created: 2005-10-09 21:16:47
subject: <b>Lanfear was stilled...</b>
body:
Moirane ripped the angreal from her -- I believe this in effect stilled her.  At guess at some point she died with the Finns, too.  <br /><br />Nynaeve demonstrated her technique of healing in front many Aes Sedai, including Black Ajah most likely.  This technique was used to heal her after she was reincarnated --but just like Siuan and Leane, the healing wasn't 100%.<br /><br />


created: 2005-12-18 12:20:56
subject: <b>door way</b>
body:
Perhaps you can go through twice, but not safely, Lanfear went in the age of Legends, so when she was pushed through the Finn punished her by stripping her of her past wishes.  Moraine hadn't recieved any wishes, but may have accidently brought something forbidden, iron, for example, or perhaps she wove fire at Lanfear, and was imprisoned for breaking the treaty.


created: 2006-06-25 22:56:45
subject: <b>Not sure why no one pointed this out.</b>
body:
This is a great theory and it has merits but there is a major flaw in one part.  <br /><br />You say that she wished to be the strongest female channeler in her lifetime.  Also, that she is now not as strong and this is probably because now that she has died and come back to life she went back to her 'original' strength.<br /><br />This Alivia girl is stronger than Lanfear even before the Aelfinn.  <br /><br />Well Lanfear only went through the doorway within the last couple of years which means Alivia being MORE than a couple of years old was still that strong while the original Lanfear was alive. <br /><br />That creates a paradox.  If Lanfear wished to be the strongest channeler during her life then only a woman born AFTER she fell through the door should be stronger than she was.<br /><br />Still a good theory though, maybe just needs some revisions.<br /><br />Wolv X


created: 2006-07-03 00:17:05
subject: <b>I agree</b>
body:
I agree with WolverineX.  This is a very good theory (regarding the fact that it is in fact plausible).  But isn't Alivia supposed to be the oldest person in all the world?  I thought I remembered reading something about her not remembering her age but that she had been a damane for like 400 years.  Isn't that right (or close enough)?  Which would definitely be within Lanfear's lifetime.  Alivia might have even been in Randland before Lanfear was captured.  I dont know if the books say when she was brought over to this side or not.  That's my two cents.  Thanks for reading.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Let the Lord of Chaos Rule<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Nothing ever goes as you expect. Expect nothing, and you will not be surprised.<br /><br />...if this keeps us, people will realize that I am as crazy as I think I am.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rand.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2007-08-30 21:44:12
subject: <b>So few good theories...</b>
body:
There really aren't a whole lot of theories that are as solid as this one. Most are put in by people who just want to say something. This one however, is GREAT!


created: 2008-03-10 10:59:34
subject: <b>Pretty Good</b>
body:
I think that your analysis is very complete and well thought out. I disagree that the Finns just took away her power for some unknown reason. I agree with your theory that Lanfear wished her powers, and because she wished them she was not able to make a wish when she went in with Moraine. But Moraine has never been in, and when she entered she got the wishes. I think that one of her wishes was under the line of taking Lanfear's power, and giving it to herself (Moraine). This could also explain why Moraine is still trapped, she had to stay as a payment. This may be why Lanfear is turned into Cyndane, because in the past she had a similar fate, and escaped like we hope Moraine will. I like to think that Moraine will show up at Tarmon Gaidon just in time to turn the tables.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">-The Force is like duct tape, it has a Dark side and a Light side and it holds the universe together.<br />-Come to the Dark Side, you'll get matching jackets!</font><p></p>


created: 2008-04-05 18:17:22
subject: <b>Really late to post on this theory, but it came up in a message Board</b>
body:
1.  I like this Theory as a whole.  It neatly explains why Lanfear believed it impossible for another woman to be naturally stronger than she was as Lanfear.<br /><br />2.  We actually have no way of knowing how much weaker she is as Cyndane, so many of the arguements on this are a little loose.  Cyndane could be 95% of her old strength and still be stronger than any other woman.  Graendal never tells us <i>how much</i> stronger Cyndane is than she, it could be a tiny margin.  All we know for sure is that Cyndane is much stronger than Moghedien, who is likely a lot weaker than Graendal and any other female Forsaken.<br /><br />3.  Sharina's strength is noted as &quot;ahead&quot; of Nynaeves, and AS <i>speculate</i> that she may become as strong as is possible to be, but it's noted as theoretical talk.  There is no proof that there is actually an upper limit to OP strength other than Cyndane's thoughts.<br /><br />4.  Alivia is called &quot;considerably stronger&quot; than Nynaeve in WH.  In PoD Elayne comments that neither she nor Nynaeve have reached thier full potential, Alivia clearly (after 400+ years) has reached hers.  It's possible that Alivia will only be somewhat stronger once Nynaeve's potential is hit... In fact, Cadsuane notes in KoD that Alivia is above Nynaeve, but doesn't say that she is considerably stronger... Nynaeve herself is so poorly trained she can't even judge another woman's strength.<br /><br />5.  We don't really know how close the contest between Cyndane and Alivia was... we know Alivia was injured, but not so badly that she couldn't get herself back to the hill after several hours of battling Cyndane.  It's clear that with the angreal she had a significant (maybe as much as 3x ) strength advantage, but Cyndane could have made herself effectively invisible and used inverted flows to throw all sorts of things at Alivia without actually trying to directly hitting her with weaves.  Think about the weaknesses in Mat's ter'angreal and how easy it can be to exploit.  Alivia only really knows weapon weaves, which are effectively useless if she can't see her opponent or sense her opponents weaves.  Strength in a battle like this is irrelevant.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I'm a Domani Drag Queen who went to the Black tower.  Leane is my 3rd cousin twice removed and I showed her how to use make-up!<br /><br />I don't deal in absolutes or spell check!</font><p></p>


created: 2008-04-06 11:12:56
subject: <b>I left one thought out!</b>
body:
6.  I also believe that the Eelfinn/Aelfinn cannot effect things outside of thier own dimension.  So wishing for the death of someone or a city etc... would be useless unless they were in Finnland.  This is why I believe they could effect Lanfear's ability to channel, she was there and thus they could manipulate her body/soul and make her stronger.<br /><br />Mat on the other hand wished for something that would take place outside of Finnland and thus they gave him the ter'angreal for when he was outside of their world.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I'm a Domani Drag Queen who went to the Black tower.  Leane is my 3rd cousin twice removed and I showed her how to use make-up!<br /><br />I don't deal in absolutes or spell check!</font><p></p>


created: 2009-01-14 06:20:32
subject: <b>Alternative...</b>
body:
Lanfear never visited the 'Finns before going through the doorway with Moiraine. There shouldn't be a problem with her being powerful and beautiful; it's fantasy, and it happens in the real world, on occasion...<br />I can't see the 'Finns being able to add power, but I don't see why they can't take it away...They killed Matt when he wanted to leave...so that shows they like to do things like take life...they could've killed her and reduced her strength when she wanted to leave. <br />This is inspired by the idea of them giving her strength, but I think it's far more likely that they would take it away...Just a thought. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />


created: 2009-05-23 17:18:57
subject: <b>Get a grip</b>
body:
Lanfear as Cyndane is stronger than all the other female forsaken - and definetly stronger than Alivia. We know for a fact she is stronger than moggy and Graendal. Granedal is most likely number 2 amongst the female forsaken - if not then she is either equal to or very similiar in strength to Messana and Semiharge. I assume she is stronger because when she senses Cyndane's strength she is surprised and her P.O.V states it was uncommon for men to be stronger than her and almost rare to find women stronger - and her time was full of powerful channellers. As for Messana and Semiharge they are equal - we know this from Messana's POV. when Cyndane fights Alivia she is shocked at her strength and ASSUMES (correctly) she must have an angreal - as it was not possible to be that strong. Now if Alivia was as strong as Lanfear, with an angreal, would have overwhelmed Cyndane. <br /><br />If Lanfear had been to the ellf/alf before why would she wish to be the greatest female channeller? why not ask to be the greatest channeller fullstop - in her time there were many strong channelrs - not only Lews Therin and ishy - u must remember even Rahvin and Sammeal feel they can over power - even kill her. if so they are more powerful which would mean Demandred too would be able to overcome her - and so would Agnior (number 2 as stated many times - although by book 8/9 he becomes a joke - and one of the forsaken even comments that Agnior was only a forsaken not for his strength but his genius at creating trollocks and such. - If lanfear had been to Elf/Alf - why not ask to be number one above all channellers - male and female - we know she is power hungry enough to want that.<br /><br />Plus let me make another point - RJ has stated that men were generally stronger than the female - except fo0r in freakish cases - I think Asmodean was also stronger than lanfear - he certainly wasn't afraid of her before she sheilded him - infact he openly rebuked her for risking their plans.  i admit lanfear must be freakishly strong - since we know Graendal was (ie uncommon to find stronger men than her). But I think Asmodean wasnt weak - maybe weak relativvely in comparison to other male forsaken - but not weak against any common male channeler - if you guys remember how Rand handles BOTH Elayne and Egwene as kittens however he fights for his life against Asmo even with an angreal at his aid.<br /><br />Finally someone mentioned how Moggy was stronger than lanfear in TAR but got beaten by Nyneave - jesus do u guys not read - or understand what u read? Nyneave escaped in and won in TAR by sheer luck - Brigette saved her - by shooting an arrow into Moggy - and the second time she won by fluke - Moggy was unaware of fookroot!<br /><br />to be honest it OBVIOUS RJ screwed up big time with the levels of power especially his bulls** 21 level theory. Agnior is called 2 nd most strongest forsaken over and over - even Agnior in book one boasts how he MATCHED lew therin blow for blow in the hall of servants or whatever...by book 8 Demandred is calling him a fool and he sits and takes it out of fear???? i doubt demandred would have dared challenge or humilliate Sammeal like that. Plus as i mentioned before Rahvin and sammeal reckon they can overcome lanfear - rahvin expresses surprise that rand could match lanfear so soon - but then we see his POV that he or sammeal could overwhelm her - Im sure he also threatens Moggy he will kill lanfear so does sammmea at one point. Now another point graendal threatens Sammeal tro his face that she will kill him if he calls her Maisa again - now this is Sammeal almost equal to the Dragon - Sammeal who is strong enough to kill lanfear - and Granny threatens him - she states it as a matter of fact 'I will kill you'. is she deluded? no - because Moridin who witnesses the exchange is certain if they fight one of them will die - but NOT SURE which one. Also please be aware just because we know Moggy is a coward SHE IS NOT weak NOR is NYneave just beacuse theres a Sharnia or another around - remember Egwene and elayne are the STRONGEST channelrs in a 1000 years - and moriane says egwene and elayne will be candles to Nyneaves BONFIRE.. also dont underestimate Elayne and Egwene - because even if they are now belwo Nyneave, Sharnia, Alivia and the seafolk girl - they were deemed stronger than any other living aes sedi - Moiraine, Siuane, Elaida, lelaine, and Romanda were CONSIDERED the strongest living aes sedai (Cadusune was ASSUMED dead) - and Verin states these five are strong enough to handle Choden Kal!!!!!! Cadusune is considerably stronger than these five - they say her kind (in strength) have not walked for 500 years - and our girls Elayne, egwene and Aviendha are stronger than cadusane - so as you see they are fairly strong.<br /><br />I think in terms of the forsaken - barring the contradictions - once u reach a certain level of strength the raw power becomes irrelevant and it has more to do with skill, cunning, bravery, wit and endurance 9moggy lacks most of these qualities). I say this becuase of how casually graendal has threatened sammeal - How Asmodean openly rebuked lanfear for trying to seduce rand in his dream and at other times in the aiel waste, how graendal makes jabs at Lanfear -during their meeting with sammeal and rahvin - she mentions how Lanfear was at Lews therrins beck and call - she humilates lanfear to the extent that both Sammeal and Rahvin embrace Saidin - Rahvin even tries to link with sammeal - plus finally when Cyndane and Moggy come to Granny's palace - she sense Cyndane's strength yet is more weary and apprehensive of moggy - even after she uses compulsion she fears moggy more (ie to seek revenge for her using compulsion). And finally remember how lanfear warns Rand that Saameal, Asomdean and Moggy will kill him - or will come after him - i cant remember exactly which 2 male forsaken she mentioned but of the females she mentioned Moggy more than once - even when he leaves callandor behind - she mentiones how Moggy will trade it with one of the male forsaken - however back to my point abt how moggy will come after rand and kill him - isnt that a contradiction - she's the spider and weaker than the rest of thye forsaken - yet lanfear fears that Moggy out of the female forsaken will come after him - and even BE ABLE TO DESTROY him?<br />


created: 2003-04-04 15:07:31
subject: <b>Well done.</b>
body:
Nice work. Good support, I enjoyed it. I think you have some good ideas, but some things are a bit shaky. I really enjoyed the Beidomon part, but as you said, it's pure speculation and there's no backing for it. But I did enjoy it.<br /><br />Have a cookie.


created: 2003-04-04 15:08:12
subject: <b>Beidomon?</b>
body:
If the DO could infuse part of him(her)self into any creature wouldn't it be better for him to do it with a powerful channeler than with a fade? Besides remember that the DO still can't touch the world as it is stated by various Forsaken. <br />Personally I think that when the 100 companions sealed the Bore some part of the essence of the DO was OUTIDE, infused into Ishy. Thus he was only PARTIALLY bound: his dark essence was outside. When in tDR Ishy became toast the essence went back to the Bore, found the seal and did the only logical thing- manifest itself into the closest creature- a Myrddraal! Happy birthday Shaidar Haran...<br /><br />burzum durbatuluk<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/seanchan.gif" border="0" /> Hagakure: prosto tak nichego ne byivaet <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/seanchan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Disclaimer: <br /><br />Any ideas written in this post are the author's personal opinion. Any offence taken is completely coincidential and unintentional.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-04-04 18:28:42
subject: <b>Congrats on a great, original theory!</b>
body:
I've liked the idea since the first time you kicked it in my direction. That said, I don't know how much I would agree with 100%, but that is not a failing of the theory: I just need a re-read <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Here's an interesting thought: I've always believed that the reason the DO will not let just anyone use the TP is because using the TP is like using him. It drains his power, and runs a part of him through the channeler. Take, for example, the effect on Ishy's eyes the more he uses the TP: They start out normal, and then they get very glazed and distant looking, then the Saa come, then they look like flame. It sounds more like Chaos than anything to me, and that's what the DO basically is: Chaos. <br /><br />Anyway, great theory, and I'll have to read it a few more times and try to re-format myself into WoT. lol.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2003-04-04 20:59:09
subject: <b>great theory</b>
body:
i liked this. it seems a great theory and would be interesting if that is the case. i dont agree with the deodomon part of it but otherwise great!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rand.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perrin.gif" border="0" /><br />I don't fail. I succeed in finding what doesn't work. <br /><br /><font color="00ff33">Official Sponsor of the Melindhra Fan Club</font></font><p><a href="http://www.illwillpress.com" target="_blank">Feel the Squirley Wrath!!!!</a></p><p></p>


created: 2003-04-04 22:14:49
subject: <b>Karaethon Cycle</b>
body:
Very interesting.  You did a dynamite job tying a mountain of material together, but there are certain parts I don't agree with.<br /><br />First, I'm suprised you didn't include the bit of Karaethon Cycle that Moiraine tells the Grrls at the beginning of TSR.  &quot;Power of the Shadow made human flesh, wakened to turmoil, strife and ruin.&quot; This almost certainly refers to Shaidar's birth.  The timing of the other events in the passage can be read to support your timing, although I would personally disagree.<br /><br />Next, I disagree with how you characterize Shaidar, as well as how you spell his name <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />  The spelling is actually important since the Shai is there, and Hand of the Dark seems literal. Shaidar is the Dark One, like my hand is me.  <br /><br />Nor do I think that Moridin was active during the prologue of LoC, because the WH Karaethon quote says, &quot;for winter's heart shall ride a black horse, and the name of it is Death.&quot; The &quot;it&quot; refers to winter's heart, not the black horse, and the whole thing is referring to Moridin.  This means that &quot;in the heart of winter shall winter's heart be born&quot; means that Moridin was born months after that scene in LoC. <br /><br />Actually, I think that Ishmael/Ba'alzamon/Moridin is so favored by the Dark One because of who he is.  Ishmael was a philosopher in the AoL, and has never shown any interest in money, land, power, armies, sex, day time talk shows, or anything besides freeing Old Grim.  I think it's because he understands what freeing the Dark One really means -- the end of existence.  The other Forsaken, Darkfriends, Black Ajah, et. al. don't seem to get that all that material crap is going to be useless if they win.<br /><br />Finally, it seems that your saying the Dark One's essence is only in Ishmael and Shaidar, and he doesn't directly influence anyone else.  I dispute both ideas, because the Forsaken also seem to have direct connections to Leafblighter, and Fain has had direct contact with Dark One according to Moiraine.  I think the Dark One has infected all his followers with some of his essence, and directly influences all of their actions.<br /><br />Anyway, I really enjoyed reading it.  I thought it showed some really nice style, and I liked your theories on Beidomon.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Diomedes <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-04-05 13:40:44
subject: <b>If ishy had the...</b>
body:
...dark ones &quot;essence&quot; why did he not use the true power or whatever Moridin uses now.<br />Also all the forsaken are immortal so it doesn't matter how far in the bore you are. So that rational for why the dark one HAS to have been in ishy is stupid.<br />I don't think realy proved or got close to really proving anything, but since I can't disprove much I guess it's ok if you take it as musings.


created: 2003-04-05 23:39:25
subject: <b>Actually Moridin Haran........</b>
body:
Ishy is the only one generally acepted to have been truly immortal (If Balthamel, for example, was immortal, he would not have rotted). The rest got ripped off and lied to. At least that's the concensus among many hardcores.<br /><br />Also, Ishy did use the TP. He used it to the point that his eyes became WAY more than speckled, and his face was rotting. <br /><br />Meh.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2003-04-06 11:17:48
subject: <b>Great Theory</b>
body:
Especially because I find everything with the Shadow, the TP etc. is one of the most interesting topics and I like to speculate about that.<br /><br />SH's words in CoT could be a hint that he begins to think that he is the DO like Ishy.<br /><br />But I have questions. <br /><br />When did Ishy get the essence and how long does it take to become such mad from the DO's essence? <br />As you said around 3000 years, shortly before the Forsaken came free (I think so much time is gone since the Breaking). <br />This seems to be a long time, especialy if the presumption is right that SH begins already now (in CoT) to believe he is the DO. <br /><br />Or, isn't it more likely that the essence made Ishy already mad in the time of the Trolloc wars or even earlier  (think at this time the name Ba'alzamon was mentioned the first time)? <br />This would also fit with the theory that Hawkwing's counseler Jalwin Moerad was Ishy. <br />Moerad is described as a person with a &quot;temperament that more than one observer recorded as 'more than half insane'.&quot; (Guide)<br />No surprise since the essence made him already quite mad. <br /><br />I think the essence made Ishy much quicker mad, it doesn't need 3000 years.<br /><br />And another question. <br />If it's possible to use a Myrddraal as a vessel for the essence, why didn't the DO give it to a Myrddraal from the beginning and not to Ishy. Ishy was bound, the Myrddraal wouldn't be bound.<br />Or is this in fact the reason. <br />The DO could only give someone in the prison the essecence because he had no access to the outside world, and he wanted to bring a bit of his essence in the world again. <br />You also think that Ishy got the essence after the Strike at SG, did I understand this correctly?  <br /><br />


created: 2003-04-06 17:20:11
subject: <b>hmm very interesting</b>
body:
i agree completely with you<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">The Truth is Shrouded by Darkness,<br />Only our Gaze Pirces the Darkest Night.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-04-07 10:21:27
subject: <b>Very Creative!</b>
body:
I think that the part where the Dark One desperately rushed through the breach in his prison into our world is very plausible. The destruction of the Sharom and the reality ripples experienced by the people of V'saine can be used to back that. Your take on Beidomon's fate is great! Even if he was destructively consumed by the Dark One, his soul is still part of the Pattern. You cannot completely take an entire thread out of the Pattern. Even Balefire cannot do that, merely burning out a small part of the thread. It was implied that others in the research team died in the disaster as well. What is your take on those deaths? Caused by the Dark One's lashes or black fires, or falling debris of the Sharom?<br /><br />Etzel, it has been mentioned (I don't remember exactly where) that &quot;Ba'alzamon&quot; was the name of a dynamic Darkfriend leader in the Trolloc Wars that Ishamael took for himself. Perhaps this indicates where Ishamael was sane enough to separate his identities. Certainly, the Ishamael we met in 'Dragonmount' was very sane, even if his arrogance seems insane in itself. While it has not been confirmed, it is widely accepted that Artur Hawkwing's adviser Jalwin Moerad is Ishamael, and Moerad is known to be more than half mad. Then we meet Ba'alzamon himself in WoT and he seem almost completely mad. Here we can measure the progress of his Dark insanity.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Gaeran Amaconde<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />Grand Historian at the Court of the Sun<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />One of Those Chosen to Bring the Light<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" />Master of Graendal's Revels<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" />&quot;If sometimes our dreams come true, what of our nightmares?&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-04-07 10:57:02
subject: <b>My replies and my thanks...</b>
body:
Thanks again, to Green Gaidin for your help and kind words.  And for answering some questions that were easily enough answered.  As for the rest....<br />'First, I'm suprised you didn't include the bit of Karaethon Cycle that Moiraine tells the Grrls at the beginning of TSR. &quot;Power of the Shadow made human flesh, wakened to turmoil, strife and ruin.&quot; This almost certainly refers to Shaidar's birth. The timing of the other events in the passage can be read to support your timing, although I would personally disagree.'<br /><br />  There is NO WAY that this passage refers to SH. The words are 'Power of the Shadow made HUMAN FLESH'  This passage has to refer to one of the Forsaken, if not all of them.  Or perhaps just Ishy, though his sleep was periodically broken. <br /><br />'Nor do I think that Moridin was active during the prologue of LoC, because the WH Karaethon quote says, &quot;for winter's heart shall ride a black horse, and the name of it is Death.&quot; The &quot;it&quot; refers to winter's heart, not the black horse, and the whole thing is referring to Moridin. This means that &quot;in the heart of winter shall winter's heart be born&quot; means that Moridin was born months after that scene in LoC.' <br /><br /> Moridin first appears in ACOS, long before the Winter.  He appears, unnnamed, watching from the shadows, in a chapter called 'Patterns within Patterns'.  This, I think, telss us this may well have been Moridin's 'pattern' of operation for some time.  I prefer to interpret this passage from the start of WH as describing the opening of the Bore in the heart of winter, with the DO being 'Death'.  Otherwise, it can be interpreted as a prophecy concerning the Dragon, as it IS from the Karaethon Cycle after all.  Rand's current emotional state could be described as cold and icy, perhaps like a winter's heart.  Death follows in his footsteps, and as for the 'it' in the above passage, I think it refers to the horse not WH.  Just dissect the passage properly and you should see this.<br /><br />'Finally, it seems that your saying the Dark One's essence is only in Ishmael and Shaidar, and he doesn't directly influence anyone else. I dispute both ideas, because the Forsaken also seem to have direct connections to Leafblighter, and Fain has had direct contact with Dark One according to Moiraine. I think the Dark One has infected all his followers with some of his essence, and directly influences all of their actions.'<br /><br />  I think he influences his followers more so than bestowing great power on everyone.  That could become difficult....The point is that this is an honour perhaps over and beyond that of being nae'blis.  The other Chosen seem unaware of this 'gift' of the DO's, with Moridin being the obvious exception.<br />  Thanks for your comments, but I'm sorry I can't agree with your interpretations of those passages.  I just read them differently, I guess, and I think you've got that first one all wrong.  SH is myrddraal, not human.<br />  As to some positive thoughts...<br /><br />'SH's words in CoT could be a hint that he begins to think that he is the DO like Ishy.'<br /><br />It was his thoughts, by the way.  I tend to think they mirror the DO's already, as they are both creatures of shadow, in a way.<br /><br />'When did Ishy get the essence and how long does it take to become such mad from the DO's essence?'<br /><br />No idea.  But you seem to be correct, he was certainly mad by the time of the Trolloc Wars.  It just seems the DO and SH are more compatible for some reason. (see above)<br /><br />'This would also fit with the theory that Hawkwing's counseler Jalwin Moerad was Ishy. <br />Moerad is described as a person with a &quot;temperament that more than one observer recorded as 'more than half insane'.&quot; (Guide)'<br /><br />  I like this idea, it's something I've thought before.  I think this guy was Ishy, it would fit his style.  This fits in well with my Moridin=Taim theory, as it gives precedent to the idea he preferred to act as second in command or right hand man to someone he wanted to destroy.  Hawkwing posed a serious threat to Chaos and disorder.  So he had to be stopped. <br /><br />'You also think that Ishy got the essence after the Strike at SG, did I understand this correctly?'<br /><br />  Yeah, that was the idea, but it doesn't necessarily follow.  He may have been granted the DO's 'gift' prior to the Bore.  Who knows?<br />  I've had no real further thoughts on this idea, as I'm currently moving, don't have my books available, and I'm reading Steven Erikson anyway.  I'll reply to any other challenging or thougt provoking stuff here if i can, but it's good to see we won't be getting 70+ responses on this one! <br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /> Baphomet 23 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br />Give me the strength to change the things I can, the grace to accept the things I cannot, and a great big bag of money.<br /><br />My online gallery:<br />http://daveb23.deviantart.com/gallery/<br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-04-07 18:22:49
subject: <b>Re: My replies and my thanks...</b>
body:
There is NO WAY that this passage refers to SH. The words are 'Power of the Shadow made HUMAN FLESH' <br /><br />The entry for Myrddraal in the glossary at the end of TEotW states, &quot;Twisted offspring of Trollocs in which the HUMAN STOCK used to create the Trollocs has RESURFACED, but tainted by the evil that made the Trollocs.&quot;  They also look human, except for their lack of eyes, and skintone, so I don't think it is inaccurate in any way to describe Fades as &quot;human flesh&quot;.<br /><br />Moridin first appears in ACOS, long before the Winter. He appears, unnnamed, watching from the shadows, in a chapter called 'Patterns within Patterns'.<br /><br />The timeline for WOT that can be found at www.users.bigpond.com/steven_cooper/wotchron.htm places the events from chapter 20 of ACoS a few days after High Chasaline, which ring in the new year, and over a week after the Festival of Lights, which is the shortest day of the year.  Even without cold weather and snow, both of those holidays are close in time to what could be considered the heart of the winter season.  This is months after Shaidar's first appearance in LoC, which the same website puts at September 22.<br /><br />as for the 'it' in the above passage, I think it refers to the horse not WH. Just dissect the passage properly and you should see this.<br /><br />In terms of grammer this bit of prophecy has four independent clauses with subjects and predicates.  The first line creates the first, lines 2 and 3 the second, and lines 4 and 5 the last two.  Since we're only really interested in the last bit here we can consider that in isolation: &quot;for winter's heart shall ride a black horse, and the name of it is Death.&quot;  This can be thought of as a compound sentence where &quot;heart shall ride&quot; is the first clause, and &quot;name is&quot; is the second.  The &quot;horse&quot; is the direct object of the compound verb &quot;shall ride&quot;, and &quot;it&quot; is the the direct object of the preposition &quot;of&quot;.  <br /><br />You're right in that &quot;it&quot; as a pronoun can refer to either of the nouns &quot;heart&quot; or &quot;horse&quot; as its antecedent, but there are three reasons why I think &quot;it&quot; = &quot;heart&quot;.  First, as the subject of its independent clause, &quot;heart&quot; is more essential to the sentence, and is therefore more likely the antecedent of the pronoun.  Second, and less important, &quot;heart&quot; is a gender-neutral noun, even though in this instance it is referring to a male or female person.  A &quot;horse&quot;, on the other hand, should be either male or female, would be more correctly referred to as &quot;his&quot; or &quot;her&quot; in this instance.  Finally, &quot;Death&quot; corresponds exactly to the meaning of &quot;Moridin&quot;, and the fact that it is capitalized only gives it added importance within this passage.<br /><br />I think he influences his followers more so than bestowing great power on everyone. <br /><br />There are two things I want to say about this.  First, I see it as a matter of degree.  Certainly the Dark One has granted some nice powers to the Forsaken.  Second, Darkfriends may not gain great magical power, but they do gain political, monetary, and psychological power from the Dark One.  Consider the example of beggars who can order around their noble counterparts.<br /><br />Anyway, please don't apologize for disagreeing with me.  I find that when everyone agrees conversations like this one quickly become pretty boring.  In terms of the WH prophecy, the fact is that Jordan comitted a classic error in writing this part of the prophecy, because &quot;it&quot; does not have a clear antecedent, and I believe he did that on purpose.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Diomedes <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-04-08 02:52:30
subject: <b>Why not Myrddraal from the start?</b>
body:
If it's possible to use a Myrddraal as a vessel for the essence, why didn't the DO give it to a Myrddraal from the beginning and not to Ishy. Ishy was bound, the Myrddraal wouldn't be bound?<br /><br /><br />Answer: there were no Myrddraal when Ishy was orginally made Avatar. They were made later.


created: 2003-04-08 04:27:13
subject: <b>But!</b>
body:
There were Myrddraals in the War against the Shadow, and Ishy got the DO's essence in the prison after LTT's strike at SG (so I understood this theory).


created: 2003-04-08 11:29:04
subject: <b>As for why Ishy got it first...</b>
body:
...I must admit I'm not sure.  This seems a good argument for the DO having bestowed this upon Ishy once the Bore was sealed.  It may well have been an 'emergency measure' on the part of the DO.<br />  Diomededes, you argue very well.  I can't agree with you, especially on the 'shadow...made human flesh' stuff.  Despite the prevalence of 'human stock', a Fade is not human; no more so than a Trolloc is human simply because it also contains 'human stock'.  Not many humans can see without eyes, have white skin, cloaks that don't move in the wind or be able to travel from shadow to shadow.  Despite having some human genes, and a general human appearance, they aren't human.  I hope you can see my point here.<br />  I can't compete with your dissection of the grammar in that passage, so I won't try.  However, a horse could quite easily be referred to as 'it'.  As for the seasons, they have been completely out of whack with the calendar, as you know.  So, despite the actual date, Moridin first appeared when summer was still burning.  Otherwise WH would have had to be renamed somehow (LOL).[&quot; A REALLY Cold Summer: bk 9 of the WOT by RJ&quot;]<br />  I don't feel bad at all in having a difference of opinion with you: that's half the fun.  Hope you don't mind me making light of some of your arguments; it's merely to illustrate a point.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /> Baphomet 23 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br />Give me the strength to change the things I can, the grace to accept the things I cannot, and a great big bag of money.<br /><br />My online gallery:<br />http://daveb23.deviantart.com/gallery/<br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-04-08 16:07:55
subject: <b>this IS fun</b>
body:
baphomet23, I have to say this has been one of the best discussions I've been involved in.  You're bringing up all the right points in a spirited argument.  I love it!  I'll try to be brief in this response <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />I'm not trying to say that Fades are human, per se, but that they could be described as having human flesh.  I know it's a fine distinction, however, I would compare it to describing a Trolloc as having an eagle beak, or goat hooves, without it actually calling it an eagle or goat.  That is, the prophecy is describing an external, physical trait, without actually saying that the Power of the Shadow was born as a human person.<br /><br />As for my little grammatical digression, you DID suggest that I look at those lines more closely <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" />  In any case, one major characteristic of prophecy is that it's obscure and open to many different interpretations.  What we're really talking about are possibilities, and there will probably never be any real concrete, yes or no answers to these questions.  Your points about season-appropriate weather, not mention the title of book 9, are totally valid, even though I read it differently.  I really like your views on this, and think they're insightful.  Of course, I like mine a little better <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />  Keep up the good work!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Diomedes <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-04-09 04:41:18
subject: <b>Two comments</b>
body:
First about the time Ishy got the essence,<br /><br />If it's true that the DO gave Ishy the essence not before the LTT's strike, maybe the DO gave Ishy the essence while he was tainting Saidin. <br />I don't know how exactly, but maybe the Taint was also the DO's essence and the DO spend a little part of it not on Saidin but to &quot;taint&quot; Moridin. <br />But it's just a thought.<br /><br />Second to Diomedes,<br />you said that the WH prophecy at the beginning refers to Moridin. <br />That's not right. Rand is winter's heart. <br />He even thinks several times in the books of himself as winter's heart. Rand, as the Dragon Reborn, will bring the people death of course. <br />Rand was born in a heavy winter at the Dragonmount (we will see this probably in one of RJ's new short stories).<br />And after all is this passage from &quot;The Prophecies of the Dragon- Karaethon Cycle&quot;. These prophecies are always about Rand and what he will do.   <br />


created: 2003-04-10 10:43:10
subject: <b>Hmmm...</b>
body:
I definitely agree with Etzel and Baphomet that &quot;Winter's Heart&quot; is Rand and the Horse is a euphemism for &quot;Death&quot;.  I do believe this book saw quite a lot of people dead...more so than any book in a while (don't have it in front of me and sometimes get confused to which events happened in which book...but didn't a ton of Seanchan die near the end? Not to mention his own troops?) <br /><br />I like the theory and find it interesting as well as all the discussion between Diomedes, Baphomet, and Etzel. Can't say I agree with every point and I think quite a lot will be left open to discussion even after the books end. <br /><br />Hopefully RJ will come out with another BWB that is much better than the last and ties up all the loose threads (at least from the past since I know he said in an interview he was purposely planning on leaving some loose ends when he concludes the final book.) &quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Keep up the good work and great discussion!<br /><br />Belgaria


created: 2003-04-11 14:59:38
subject: <b>Death and Winter's Heart</b>
body:
I agree with the position that Rand is winter's heart.  However, what about the possibility of the horse as a metaphoric reference to Moridin, as indicated through the name &quot;Death&quot; and the color of black.  This imagery would symbolize how Rand and Moridin are both shaping events within the world, sometimes with Rand in control and guiding events as Moridin goes unwillingly where Rand wants, while at other times Moridin has the advantage and events start running out of Rand's control.  <br /><br />It's much like an attempt to tame a wild horse.  At times the horse wants to buck the rider, which would symbolizes Moridin's occassional desire to kill Rand.  At other times, when the Horse is somewhat more comfortable with the rider, it will accept having the rider on its back, but still want to go where it wants to go, taking the rider with it, which symbolizes Moridin's attempts to guide Rand down the paths he chooses.  And finally, when the rider is in control, the horse goes where he wants it, which symbolizes when Rand makes Moridin dance to his own tune.


created: 2003-04-11 22:24:47
subject: <b>Well well well...</b>
body:
This is some GREAT WoT discussion! Unfortunately, GG isn't what he used to be, and a SORE lack of recent convo (partly due to the dissapointment of CoT) has crippled him in the matters of WoT discuission.<br /><br />HOWEVER! I will bring up two points.<br /><br />1: I find it surprising that no one has responded to my suggestion that the use of the TP is the use of the DO himself, and that he can be depleted. I thought it was a pretty good thought! Has this been discussed? Fill me in peeps!<br /><br />2: It is my opinion that Rand is Winter's Heart (doy) and Moridin is the Horse. After all, he IS leading Rand where he wants our boy to go. Rand thinks that he's running the show, but even the slightest mistake in handling those around him and he may not make it to TG, just as someone on a long difficult journey may not make it to their desitination should their horse die or buck them off.<br /><br />GREAT discussion, and great theory. Man, I need to re-read and get back in here!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2003-04-12 06:31:11
subject: <b>Green Gaidin</b>
body:
<b> &quot;This is some GREAT WoT discussion!&quot; </b><br /><br />It's sad that apparently so few people notice this great theory or at least vote thumb up for it.  <br /><br /><br /><b> &quot;I find it surprising that no one has responded to my suggestion that the use of the TP is the use of the DO himself, and that he can be depleted.&quot; </b><br /><br />The suggestion is original but I doubt it's right. <br />It's possible that the True Power is the DO's essence. That the DO is in other words the whole TP. Then the TP would be living in a way and be intelligent<br /><br />But I believe the TP is just the DO's power. He can spend it to his people or use it for his deeds, e.g. the Taint could be the True Power or the Myrddraal influenced by it. <br /><br />Also I don't think the TP can become less or the DO depleted. <br />As I understand the Power using, some people (who have the right gen) have access to the Power source, you take as much of the power as you need, channel e.g. a Gateway and then release the Power, so that it can flow back to it's source. <br />Also Saidin and Saidar don't become less, too, though many people use it.  <br /><br />Besides, note that the Forsaken were allowed to use the TP (before Moridin became Nae'blis at least). They just don't wanted it because it kills you. If the DO would deplete I expect him not to be such generous.  <br /><br />I think at the beginning of the WoT universe, there were two creatures. <br />The first had access to Saidin and Saidar, the One Power (Creator) and the other to the True Power (Shai'tan). Maybe the DO was degenerated from the TP though. <br /><br />In any case, the Creator used his power first to prison the DO, then he let it drift ashore the Time and give some people a Power source. <br />On the other hand it could be a mistake, not planned that some people learned to use the One Power since the people didn't know how to channel in the Age before the AoL.<br />Of course it's rather speculative.  <br /><br /><br /><b> &quot;It is my opinion that Rand is Winter's Heart (doy) and Moridin is the Horse. After all, he IS leading Rand where he wants our boy to go. Rand thinks that he's running the show, but even the slightest mistake in handling those around him and he may not make it to TG, just as someone on a long difficult journey may not make it to their desitination should their horse die or buck them off. </b><br /><br />I don't think Moridin is the Horse. <br />After all, the rider is the master, Winter's Heart rides  the horse and says where to go, and not the horse (at least it's not mentioned in the prophecy). <br />I think it's just a picture for Rand as a deliver of death to the people though he will rescue them in the end (similiar pictures are in other Dragon prophecies).


created: 2003-04-12 11:51:54
subject: <b>Etzel</b>
body:
<b>&quot;But I believe the TP is just the DO's power. He can spend it to his people or use it for his deeds, e.g. the Taint could be the True Power or the Myrddraal influenced by it.&quot;</b><br /><br />But does it really make sense to create two powers? Who created these powers? The Creator, as per my understanding, did not create the OP, it was just there, along with the two deities, to turn the Wheel and create the Pattern. The DO, as I know him, cannot create things, only destroy them. That is his nature. So we now have the question of who created the TP if not for the DO? It is certianly not a balance to the OP: anyone can use it. They don't have to be a channeler. It's a gift from the DO to use it, and proof is SH. Fades can't channel, yet he can (apparently) use the TP.<br /><br /><b>&quot;Also I don't think the TP can become less or the DO depleted. <br />As I understand the Power using, some people (who have the right gen) have access to the Power source, you take as much of the power as you need, channel e.g. a Gateway and then release the Power, so that it can flow back to it's source. <br />Also Saidin and Saidar don't become less, too, though many people use it.&quot;</b><br /><br />Okay, let's look at the Taint. Men become insane because the Taint stays in them when they channel, right? Therefore, theoretically, the Taint is a finite amount that COULD be used up should enough men go insane channeling. What exactly is the Taint? Is it a part of the DO himself? Or is it a massive glob of the TP? Whichever it is, it IS finite (Rand cleansing it in WH), and so we have to say (By GG's incredible powers of deduction) that either the TP or the DO (or both, as per my idea) are finite. If the DO has a prison, he MUST have boundries.<br /><br /><b>&quot;Besides, note that the Forsaken were allowed to use the TP (before Moridin became Nae'blis at least). They just don't wanted it because it kills you. If the DO would deplete I expect him not to be such generous.</b><br /><br />Correct me again if I'm wrong here, but don't Lanfear <br />(tSR) and Demandred (Forsaken meeting in WH) both say that it is a gift from the DO to channel the TP? I'll look that up when I get home <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><b>&quot;I think at the beginning of the WoT universe, there were two creatures. <br />The first had access to Saidin and Saidar, the One Power (Creator) and the other to the True Power (Shai'tan). Maybe the DO was degenerated from the TP though.&quot;</b><br /><br />That would suggest that A) the deities are corruptable, which would lead to the hypothesis that the Creator himself should be tainted after all these turnings, and B) that each can only be used by their respective sides. That would mean that DFs would not be able to use the OP. Don't forget: Balance. All of a sudden the DO has a mysterious Power that only he and his cronies can use? The Light side can't touch it? Mucho suspicious.<br /><br />Oh man... I feel the WoTness flowing again! <br /><br />I'M BACK BABY!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2003-04-12 12:36:07
subject: <b>Well</b>
body:
<b> But does it really make sense to create two powers? Who created these powers? The Creator, as per my understanding, did not create the OP, it was just there, along with the two deities, to turn the Wheel and create the Pattern. The DO, as I know him, cannot create things, only destroy them. That is his nature. So we now have the question of who created the TP if not for the DO? It is certianly not a balance to the OP: anyone can use it. They don't have to be a channeler. It's a gift from the DO to use it, and proof is SH. Fades can't channel, yet he can (apparently) use the TP. </b><br /><br />If the OP can just be there, why not the TP? <br />I believe that the DO wasn't created by the Creator, too. It doesn't make much sense to create something and prison it then for eternity.   <br /><br />As you, I believe the Creator and the DO were from the beginning. <br />Maybe these two similiar deities found two power sources and each took one in possession; the first the OP and the second the TP. <br /><br />But now their difference began because the first one (the Creator) could create life with the One Power, while the second (the DO) could only destroy the life with the TP, and surley both creatures changed through the influence of their powers. The DO corrupted. <br />Therefore (to protect its creation) the Creator created a prison for the DO.<br /><br />Much speculation but I think the only difference between the Creator and the DO is, that the first can use the OP and the second the TP.<br /><br /><b> Okay, let's look at the Taint. Men become insane because the Taint stays in them when they channel, right? Therefore, theoretically, the Taint is a finite amount that COULD be used up should enough men go insane channeling. What exactly is the Taint? Is it a part of the DO himself? Or is it a massive glob of the TP? Whichever it is, it IS finite (Rand cleansing it in WH), and so we have to say (By GG's incredible powers of deduction) that either the TP or the DO (or both, as per my idea) are finite. If the DO has a prison, he MUST have boundries. </b><br /><br />No, just the Taint was finitive. <br />The DO could only put a part either of his essence or the TP on Saidin.  <br />That doesn't mean automatically that the DO or the TP is finitiv, I think.<br />Of course the DO has boundries through the Creator, and through the fact that Shai'tan's power is the True Power, which can only destroy. The DO can't create. <br />As I said above, the Creator has the One Power, the living power, in possession. <br /><br />Only while his strike the DO was able to touch at least Saidin. We don't know how or why, but I suppose it had something to do with the seals.<br /><br /><b> Correct me again if I'm wrong here, but don't Lanfear <br />(tSR) and Demandred (Forsaken meeting in WH) both say that it is a gift from the DO to channel the TP? I'll look that up when I get home </b><br /><br />Yes, the scene in WH is interesting. <br />Demandred says that &quot;he himself had never touched the True Power except at need&quot;. <br />The gift of the TP is, that the Forsaken have access to it (if not the DO forbid it). They don't have to ask the DO every time before they use the TP. <br />Though the &quot;normal&quot; Forsaken don't use it very often of course. <br /><br /><br /><b> That would suggest that A) the deities are corruptable, which would lead to the hypothesis that the Creator himself should be tainted after all these turnings, and B) that each can only be used by their respective sides. That would mean that DFs would not be able to use the OP. Don't forget: Balance. All of a sudden the DO has a mysterious Power that only he and his cronies can use? The Light side can't touch it? Mucho suspicious. </b><br /><br />I think the deities changed through their Power. But the Creator use his Power for the world, in other words its connected with the world. Therefore every channeler can use it.<br />The TP on the other side is probably with the DO outside the pattern, at least its not connected with the world. <br />Hmm, but I agree it's a very difficult matter and much speculation. But I think the TP isn't so great, after all it corrupts things and kills them.<br />Of course we haven't mentionde Mordeth's power yet and how it fits in; also a very interesting topic.<br />But I think for the moment I've wrote enough <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br /><b> Oh man... I feel the WoTness flowing again! <br /><br />I'M BACK BABY! </b><br /><br />Hui <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br />


created: 2003-04-12 22:44:26
subject: <b>GG, it's great to see you back!</b>
body:
But, I'm pretty darn sure only channelers can use the TP, with the possible exception of SH.  If you go back to Moghedien's chat with Moridin after SH took her from the vacuole, She thinks somewhere there that only channelers can use the TP.<br />  As for the TP itself, I think the DO somehow draws on the OP, twists it and passes it on as the TP.  The question then becomes whether or not the TP is a single power, or if the DO has to access and then twist either half of the OP depending on whether the user is male or female.  This seems a little unlikely for some reason, but is a good argument for the TP being something unique; unconnected to the OP.<br />  However, if only channelers can use the TP, there must be some essential similarity.  Balefire can be made from the TP.  The uses of each seem to be similar thus far.  Is the TP just the DO's twisted mirror of the OP, or an actual twisting of the OP itself?<br />  As I tend to agree that the DO must be finite in some regard, else he could not be imprisoned, and Rand would have no hope, I think the TP must be drawn from the OP. <br />However, if the DO was trapped in a vacuole, a whole other universe, he may well be nigh-on 'infinite'.  For myself, I think the DO is no balance for the Creator at all, and may well have an actual beginning/ending within the WOT.  This could well be why It wants to shatter the Wheel; so it can escape. <br />  It has just occurred to me that if the Taint was not infinite, then neither can the Source of saidin be infinite.  Otherwise, the Taint would have had to have been infinite to effect it.  I think.  Infinity is a dificult concept.<br /> I'm really enjoying this, guys, keep it coming!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /> Baphomet 23 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br />Give me the strength to change the things I can, the grace to accept the things I cannot, and a great big bag of money.<br /><br />My online gallery:<br />http://daveb23.deviantart.com/gallery/<br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-04-14 14:05:19
subject: <b>Infinity and Rand's Wintry Heart</b>
body:
I'll get to Rand's Wintry Heart in a second.  First, something doesn't have to be infinite in all dimensions.  Basically I think of it as saidin having a finite surface area, but infinite depth.  In this way the taint covers the finite surface area of saidin, without having to match its infinite volume, and channelers still need to reach through the taint to access the One Power.  One interesting thing here is that when LTT and company sealed the Bore using saidin they must have created a direct link between saidin and the Dark One that allowed the tainting to take place.<br /><br />Now, my biggest problem with ascribing &quot;winter's heart&quot; to Rand is that it implies a pretty drastic change in Rand's personality.  I haven't really seen Rand as becoming especially cold hearted, despite his own repeated references to it.  He still can't abandon his girlfriends. He hasn't done anything especially brutal, like sacrificing masses of innocents for some advantage.  The focus of his actions for the last two books was essentially a gift to humanity by cleaning saidin!  So, I'd like to hear some examples of how Rand is manifesting his winter's heart through his actions.<br /><br />I was going to respond to some of the other stuff about OP and TP, but I need to think out how I'm going to say it.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Diomedes <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-04-14 21:20:20
subject: <b>The Source IS finite</b>
body:
Rand passed it ALL through his Super Sive&#8482; in WH, so we know it's finite.<br /><br />Also, we know that the TP AND the Taint cause the residue to stay behind in the men (the oily, unclean feeling Rand talks about), and we have to assume that the same goes for the TP (Ishy's morbid, rotting face matches the description of what happens to male channelers who don't die of the Power's initial exposure), so from that, we can draw the following conclusions:<br /><br />1) The source, the TP, the DO, and the Taint are all finite.<br /><br />2) It is very possible that the Taint was a large glob of TP.<br /><br />3) GG is the man.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2003-04-15 04:26:38
subject: <b>answers</b>
body:
To Diomedes,<br /><br /><b> I'll get to Rand's Wintry Heart in a second. First, something doesn't have to be infinite in all dimensions. Basically I think of it as saidin having a finite surface area, but infinite depth. In this way the taint covers the finite surface area of saidin, without having to match its infinite volume, and channelers still need to reach through the taint to access the One Power. One interesting thing here is that when LTT and company sealed the Bore using saidin they must have created a direct link between saidin and the Dark One that allowed the tainting to take place. </b><br /><br />Very good explaination of the infinitive of Saidin &amp; Saidar! I agree of course with every point.<br /><br /><b> Now, my biggest problem with ascribing &quot;winter's heart&quot; to Rand is that it implies a pretty drastic change in Rand's personality. I haven't really seen Rand as becoming especially cold hearted, despite his own repeated references to it. He still can't abandon his girlfriends. He hasn't done anything especially brutal, like sacrificing masses of innocents for some advantage. The focus of his actions for the last two books was essentially a gift to humanity by cleaning saidin! So, I'd like to hear some examples of how Rand is manifesting his winter's heart through his actions </b><br /><br />Winter's heart doesn't only refer to Rand's personality (but also).<br />I believe it's a picture for Rand standing in the centre of all events at the moment (he is the heart). <br />The winter is not a real winter, but mainly a picture for a very hard and deadly time for mankind through the Return of the Dragon (though at the moment there is also winter in Randland).<br />And of course as I (and the prophecy) said, Rand was born in the heart of a heavy winter.<br /><br /><br />To Green Gaidin,<br /><br /><b> GG is the man. </b><br /><br />To start with this, it's hard to disappoint a young man's joy if he thinks he is right, but you are still wrong. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />It's difficult but I'll try to explain it to you, though. <br /><br /><b> Rand passed it ALL through his Super Sive&#8482; in WH, so we know it's finite. </b><br /><br />I'm sure that's a common mistake, so I'm glad to make it clear.<br /><br />Rand didn't send all Saidin through this Saidar flower sive! <br />Saidin (and Saidar) is infinitive (Diomedes explained it well). <br />Also if you would be right, don't you think it would take many weeks not only hours to channel all Saidin through a sive? Do you think there is so less Saidin?<br />One interesting quote (WH, ch.35, pg.665):&quot;...yet covering the vastness of the male half, it [the Taint] was an ocean in itself.&quot;  <br /><br />No. Rand pumped only so much Saidin through the sive until he knew that the Taint on the surface of Saidin was moving and flowing to SL on it's own, creating this great black dome. <br /><br />I believe the Tain was attrackted by the evil of SL (like magnets). <br />This quote (WH, ch.35, pg.65<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /> supports the idea: <br />&quot;The male and female halves of the True Source were alike and unalike, attracting and repelling, fighting against each other even as they worked together to drive the Wheel of Time. The taint on the male half had its opposite twin, too. The wound given him by Ishamael throbbed in time with the taint, while the other, from Fain's blade, beat counterpoint in time with the evil that had killed Aridhol.&quot;  <br /><br />And after the Taint and SL touched each other, they reacted in destruction.<br /><br />This shows that the Taint was in fact finitive and also connected (like oil on the sea). <br />On the other hand, the One Power is of course not finitive!      <br /><br /><b> Also, we know that the TP AND the Taint cause the residue to stay behind in the men (the oily, unclean feeling Rand talks about), and we have to assume that the same goes for the TP (Ishy's morbid, rotting face matches the description of what happens to male channelers who don't die of the Power's initial exposure), so from that, we can draw the following conclusions: </b><br /><br />That's right.<br /><br /><b> 1) The source, the TP, the DO, and the Taint are all finite. </b><br /><br />That's as I showed wrong. They are all infinitive except the Taint. <br />The DO was from the begining of time and will probably ever be till eternity. His only boundaries are the Creator and that he can use the TP but not the OP (he can destroy but not create). <br />Therefore you can say the DO is infinitive but not almighty.<br /><br /><b> 2) It is very possible that the Taint was a large glob of TP. </b><br /><br />Yes, or the essence of the DO (if there is such an essence as baphomet23 suggests).


created: 2003-04-16 01:24:16
subject: <b>lol @ Etzel.</b>
body:
You seem to be a new face, so I won't bother correcting you on calling me a 'young man'. I'm an elder concerning WoT matter on the net <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Your counter-evidence seems to be... a bit flawed. Your entire argument seems to stem from the fact that there is a lot of the OP. Agreed, of course, but to say that it is infinite is folly. Why do you assume it is infinite? What proof is there? I have proof: Rand putting it all through the sive (am I spelling that right?). The 'proof' seems to stem from Dio saying that he feels that the depth is infinite. If the depth is infinite, why wouldn't the surface area be, too? When you sit down and think about that, it just doesn't make any sense whatsoever, does it? There is NO proof for that whatsoever. The ONLY proof we have to the quantity of the power is that Rand passed it through a net designed to catch the taint. If the Taint is all gone (as RJ said it is) then Rand MUST have cleansed it all. How can a mortal work with infinity? Impossible.<br /><br />Now your next point concerned the timeframe of Rand's cleansing. It took hours, yes, but don't forget that the Power from ONE Chodean Kal can level a continent handily, and both together can destroy the world or &quot;Challenge the Great Lord Himself&quot; (Lanfear, tSR). Those things don't mess around. The pull was so strong that every channeler oin the westlands could point straight at them, INCLUDING women channelers, and don't forget that in CoT **SPOILERS** it tells that the amount that Rand took was like Dragonmount next to the White Tower. There was a gross amount of the power being channeled, and over hours it was enough to pass all of the Taint through along with the Power.<br /><br /><b> This shows that the Taint was in fact finitive and also connected (like oil on the sea). <br />On the other hand, the One Power is of course not finitive! </b><br /><br />Proof?<br /><br />Finally, RJ's world is based on realistic physics and perceptions of reality. The OP is just a hop skip and jump away from how waves and light work, and the rest follows suit, too. Everything has an explination (RJ has a 40 GB harddrive ful of notes including a 300 page outline on how the OP works), so how can you just say that the Taint was the DO's essence? There is no proof for that, nor is the concept of such an essence explained. The only way it CAN be explained is if the essence of the DO is the TP, which is what I've been saying all along <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Don't forget man: proof is needed here now that GG is back <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> Now all I need to do is get Columbo back here to make a splash <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2003-04-16 05:42:16
subject: <b>Green Gaidin</b>
body:
<b> You seem to be a new face, so I won't bother correcting you on calling me a 'young man'. I'm an elder concerning WoT matter on the net </b><br /><br />Was just a soft joke since I read you are 18 and it seems you were so happy that you are right. But I'm 22, also young and of course not long on this site; <br />in any case, not rude meant! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br /><b> Your counter-evidence seems to be... a bit flawed. Your entire argument seems to stem from the fact that there is a lot of the OP. Agreed, of course, but to say that it is infinite is folly. Why do you assume it is infinite? What proof is there? I have proof: Rand putting it all through the sive (am I spelling that right?). The 'proof' seems to stem from Dio saying that he feels that the depth is infinite. If the depth is infinite, why wouldn't the surface area be, too? When you sit down and think about that, it just doesn't make any sense whatsoever, does it? There is NO proof for that whatsoever. The ONLY proof we have to the quantity of the power is that Rand passed it through a net designed to catch the taint. If the Taint is all gone (as RJ said it is) then Rand MUST have cleansed it all. How can a mortal work with infinity? Impossible. </b><br /><br />Yeah, I know it's a very difficult scene, especially because we don't get everything from Rand's POV and it's described quite complicated.<br /><br />Why do you think (and where is it stated) that Rand puts all saidin through this flower sieve? <br /><br />If you read WH ch. 35 again after reading my answer (really do it), you will understand how it works. <br /><br />First Rand pushes saidin through the sieve, he says: &quot;Pure saidin, pure exept for the taint, touched Shadar Logoth. Rand frowned. Had he been wrong?.&quot; (pg. 659) <br />But then he realize a &quot;slight movement&quot; of the taint, &quot;all in the same direction&quot;. (pg.659) <br /><br />Because after some time this first bit of the taint was attracted by the SL evil, pulling the rest behind it, cause the taint &quot;was like oil floating on water in a coating so thin...&quot; (pg.665) . It's cohered. <br />The attracting quote was already in my first reply. <br /><br />Mainly the taint flows now through the sieve not Saidin, &quot;despite the tide of filth flooding through that odd flower, the taint on the male half of the Source seemed no less&quot; (pg.665). &quot;He had to hold on. But for how long?&quot; (pg. 665) <br /><br />A bit later &quot;the full ocean of the taint was flooding through him, howling with its speed [...] The only reason that he knew  that he still held the Power was the taint. [...] The taint was moving. That was all that conted, now. He had to hold on!&quot; (pg. 672)<br /><br />That's Rand last POV. We get to know that the taint is pulled faster from and into SL. Rand must just so long hold on until everything of the taint is in SL and vanished from Saidin. <br />All of the taint gathers (the black dome), Rand closes the sieve and hold not longer on. <br />Finally the taint-dome collapses, touches SL and they destroy each other. <br /><br />If you were right all Sadin would be in SL, too. That must be wrong. Especially if you see the Forsaken and Rand's Asha'man channeling much of Saidin, too!<br /><br /><b> Now your next point concerned the timeframe of Rand's cleansing. It took hours, yes, but don't forget that the Power from ONE Chodean Kal can level a continent handily, and both together can destroy the world or &quot;Challenge the Great Lord Himself&quot; (Lanfear, tSR). Those things don't mess around. The pull was so strong that every channeler oin the westlands could point straight at them, INCLUDING women channelers, and don't forget that in CoT **SPOILERS** it tells that the amount that Rand took was like Dragonmount next to the White Tower. There was a gross amount of the power being channeled, and over hours it was enough to pass all of the Taint through along with the Power. </b><br /><br />I hope you see now, that my timeframe is correct. <br />Again, it took hours for all the taint moving through the sieve. <br />Moving all saidin would be impossible (and senseless because Rand doesn't want the saidin in SL but the taint). <br /><br />It's infinitive in my opinion, or much more (1000x?) than the taint (as even you admit) and would take at least months. <br />And of course Rand needed all the the power from the Choedan Kal, but saidin (or saidar) wasn't empty though. <br /><br /><b> This shows that the Taint was in fact finitive and also connected (like oil on the sea). <br />On the other hand, the One Power is of course not finitive! <br /><br />Proof? </b><br /><br />Show above for the taint.<br /><br />At least the OP is as good as infinitive since it doesn't become less and is so much that even when the Choedan Kal, Callandor etc are used the OP is not empty. <br />I think it must be infinitvie because it's something like a life power,&quot;the source lay at the heart of creation. The Source was everywhere..&quot; (pg. 659). <br />And don't forget that the Source is the power behind the time (it turns the Wheel) and the time is infinitive as RJ says over and over again (&quot;Ages come and pass...&quot; ).  <br /><br /><b> Finally, RJ's world is based on realistic physics and perceptions of reality. The OP is just a hop skip and jump away from how waves and light work, and the rest follows suit, too. Everything has an explination (RJ has a 40 GB harddrive ful of notes including a 300 page outline on how the OP works), so how can you just say that the Taint was the DO's essence? There is no proof for that, nor is the concept of such an essence explained. The only way it CAN be explained is if the essence of the DO is the TP, which is what I've been saying all along </b><br /><br />Well, it's a good possibility that the Taint was the TP, but the essence idea was mentioned in baphomet23's theory (on its blackboard we write <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> )  <br /><br />He says that the essence was the black thing which fled from Ishy and now SH possesses it. As I understand him the essense shall be different from the TP. <br />It's a good idea in my opinion, and if it's right it could be that the taint was the DO's essence, too.<br />But as I said, the DO was corrupted by the TP, and so the differences between TP and his essence are probably not such big. <br /><br /><b> Don't forget man: proof is needed here now that GG is back  Now all I need to do is get Columbo back here to make a splash </b> <br /><br />I agree, you need proof. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />


created: 2003-04-17 18:44:06
subject:
<b>It's sieve <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> , the nature of stuff, baphomet's original theory</b>

body:
Very nicely put, Etzel. I want to add a couple things, but GG should have the opportunity to respond first <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />  I agree we've digressed a bit from baphomet's original line of thinking, and I want to go back there. However, the nature of the fantastical forces we're talking about is an important aspect of the overall theory. <br /><br />I've re-read the theory a couple of times now, and gone back to look at a couple of things in the books, and I like it more than ever, but still disagree with some of the particulars. I am unconvinced that the DO's essence actually inhabited Ishmael.  I think instead that It was more of a passenger, unable to act, but able to sense. <br /><br />First, baphomet left out two important parts of that  battle between Rand and Ba'alzamon at the Stone of Tear. After Ba'alzamon yells &quot;Aid me!&quot; he draws his ball of darkness from a shadow that is hanging around him.  When Rand severs the cords the shadow disappears, and presumably the ball with it.<br /><br />Now, recall the final battle of TEotW between Rand and Ba'alzamon. Ba'alzamon has a thick black cord connecting him to something unseen which snaps away from him and shrivels when Rand slices it. No mention of a shadow around Ba'alzamon is made.<br /><br />Next, jump up to the scene between Rand and Ba'alzamon in the &quot;other&quot; world where Rand meets Lanfear as Selene in TGH.  Here for the first time we see the shadow surrounding Ba'alzamon while he confronts Rand.  The shadow seems to be somehow seperate from the man, even exhibiting its own behavior.  <br /><br />Lastly, there is the final battle of TGH over Falme.  Again the shadow is present around Ba'alzamon, and again it is frequently distuinguished from him, even screaming on its own.  I think the shadow is the essence of the DO, somehow connected to, but seperate from Ba'alzamon.<br /><br />After the battle in TDR I couldn't agree more with baphomet. There is no reason to believe that the DO couldn't repeat this action with one of the other Forsaken, but he decided to upgrade and became Shaidar Haran instead.<br /><br />Basically, I agree with everything you said, except for how you characterize Ishmael, Ba'alzamon, and Moridin.  I agree with Burr's comments about Ba'alzamon and Ishmael, and would add that I think the guy acts quite rationally and logically for where he's coming from.  I think that there are limitations on how much the DO can influence humanity, because of free will, and every individuals existential reality.  People must choose to be corrupted by the Shadow, but even then there seem to be limitations on how far the DO can directly influence an individual.  Ishmael probably occupies the extreme end of a continuum in this regard, but even Ishmael must still choose his behavior himself.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Diomedes <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-04-17 20:59:37
subject: <b>Nah, respond as soon as you're ready Dio</b>
body:
Etzel doesn't seem to understand the concept of 'proof, so I'll have to claim victory from those who do <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2003-04-18 04:07:33
subject: <b>To Diomedes (and Green Gaidin)</b>
body:
<b> I've re-read the theory a couple of times now, and gone back to look at a couple of things in the books, and I like it more than ever, but still disagree with some of the particulars. I am unconvinced that the DO's essence actually inhabited Ishmael. I think instead that It was more of a passenger, unable to act, but able to sense. </b><br /><br />The question remains how this &quot;passenger&quot; could come to Ishy. <br />I think it has to do with the tainting of Saidin because from this time on Ishy began to become *really* mad (that would in fact be a hint that the taint was the DO's essence). That would mean that the DO tainted Ishy, too.<br /><br /><b> First, baphomet left out two important parts of that battle between Rand and Ba'alzamon at the Stone of Tear. After Ba'alzamon yells &quot;Aid me!&quot; he draws his ball of darkness from a shadow that is hanging around him. When Rand severs the cords the shadow disappears, and presumably the ball with it.<br /><br />Now, recall the final battle of TEotW between Rand and Ba'alzamon. Ba'alzamon has a thick black cord connecting him to something unseen which snaps away from him and shrivels when Rand slices it. No mention of a shadow around Ba'alzamon is made.<br /><br />Next, jump up to the scene between Rand and Ba'alzamon in the &quot;other&quot; world where Rand meets Lanfear as Selene in TGH. Here for the first time we see the shadow surrounding Ba'alzamon while he confronts Rand. The shadow seems to be somehow seperate from the man, even exhibiting its own behavior. <br /><br />Lastly, there is the final battle of TGH over Falme. Again the shadow is present around Ba'alzamon, and again it is frequently distuinguished from him, even screaming on its own. I think the shadow is the essence of the DO, somehow connected to, but seperate from Ba'alzamon. </b><br /><br />I also think that the shadows around Ba'alzamon are imortant. I'm not sure but I think also in Rand's early dreams of Ba'alzamon, shadows are mentioned.<br /><br /><b> After the battle in TDR I couldn't agree more with baphomet. There is no reason to believe that the DO couldn't repeat this action with one of the other Forsaken, but he decided to upgrade and became Shaidar Haran instead. </b><br /><br />But I don't think we see this shadows around SH. <br />On the other hand, everytime SH enters the room, he comes with a darkness and an aura which makes the One Power vanish. <br />In CoT it's mentioned that he wears something so black that it drinks the light, mabye this indicates that SH is more connected with the essence, so it seems not only to be shadows around him but his clothes.<br />And of course, we see with SH a &quot;dead black globe&quot; (PoD, ch.12), which seems similiar to Ba'alzamon's &quot;ball so black&quot; (TDR, ch.55) (and maybe to the black dome in WH, ch.35).<br /><br />In any case, very interesting dicussion. I believe I should read all scenes with Ba'alzamon and SH again, especially noting shadows, darkness, black and so on.<br /><br /><b> Basically, I agree with everything you said, except for how you characterize Ishmael, Ba'alzamon, and Moridin. I agree with Burr's comments about Ba'alzamon and Ishmael, and would add that I think the guy acts quite rationally and logically for where he's coming from. I think that there are limitations on how much the DO can influence humanity, because of free will, and every individuals existential reality. People must choose to be corrupted by the Shadow, but even then there seem to be limitations on how far the DO can directly influence an individual. Ishmael probably occupies the extreme end of a continuum in this regard, but even Ishmael must still choose his behavior himself. </b><br /><br />With one exception. The 13 Aes Sedai and 13 Myrddraals circle which can turn you to the Shadow. I think the important thing with this are the Myrddraals and their nature. <br />We don't know how it works yet, but I assume that it has also to do with the TP or the DO's essence. <br />Maybe all Myrddraal can at least use the TP unconscious, e.g. for their shadow traveling and bounding to a Trolloc fist, and the TP flows somehow through the circle. <br />Or they are such corrupted by the DO (or his essence) that a part of these corruption is put via One Power into the victem of the 13+13 circle.  <br />In any case, this circle is very interesting, too (hope we will learn more about it...). <br />Maybe someone else has other ideas about it. <br /><br /><br />(another thought) <br />Don't forget that even SH seems to be quite individual, wants to cut his connection to SG. <br />Though we don't know if this means that the DO (if SH is the DO) just wants to be free from his prison, or if SH wants to be free from the DO. <br /><br />Once again, great theory, great discussion! <br /><br /><br />Finally, to Green Gaidin,<br /><br /><b> Etzel doesn't seem to understand the concept of 'proof, so I'll have to claim victory from those who do </b><br /><br />Well, if you have still questions about the cleansing or other things just ask (but &quot;RAFO&quot; means &quot;Read And Find Out&quot;; so PLEASE don't ask this <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />)! <br /><br />Of course you can also NB me. After all, everybody wants to understand WOT better, so don't be shy <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> <br />


created: 2003-04-18 15:51:25
subject: <b>HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA</b>
body:
lol @ Etzel.<br /><br />Stick arouind for a couple of years, and THEN you can talk WoT with me, junior. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2003-04-23 16:04:06
subject: <b>A &quot;link between saidin and the Dark One&quot;</b>
body:
I've seen a lot of comments to the effect that only men were present at the sealing of the Dark One's prison.  As I understand things, for all of the men to be effective at the same time, women HAD to have been there.  As I recall, all that was said was that no woman of substantial power was there, but for all of the men to link, there had to be women to form the link.<br /><br />Subbie<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">No matter how you shake and dance...<br /><br />When you die you're food for worms and ants!</font><p></p>


created: 2003-04-24 05:20:30
subject: <b>few points, to etzel and green gaidin.</b>
body:
All this talk about proofs, and yet very little to be had <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br />The taint was finite, yet nothing in the scene of the cleansing says one way or the other about saidin being finite or infinite, only that it is alot larger in comparison to what the taint was like.<br />There is evidence to say, as GG put, that the TP may be akin to the taint , which could mean it is finite as well, but again no proof one way or the other.<br />One question I have (main reason for this comment): where is it said that the DO cannot use the One Power?<br />And if the DO is infinitive in power, how did the Creator manage to imprison him?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Moridin/Ishamael's spiritual advisor.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-green.gif" border="0" /> Jedi Knight <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-green.gif" border="0" /><br />Proud Warder to Tatayana and Lanfear81.<br />In love with a beautiful English lady.<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-04-24 07:26:59
subject: <b>Comments</b>
body:
To Subjugator,<br /><br /><b>  I've seen a lot of comments to the effect that only men were present at the sealing of the Dark One's prison. As I understand things, for all of the men to be effective at the same time, women HAD to have been there. As I recall, all that was said was that no woman of substantial power was there, but for all of the men to link, there had to be women to form the link. </b><br /><br />In RJ's short story &quot;The Strike at Shayoul Ghul&quot; (and other times) it is said that only LTT and his hundred male Companions placed the seals (though they were probably made by men and women together concerning their black/white colour). <br /><br />There were no female channelers because Latra Posae (a powerful female Aes Sedai leader) forbid it. <br />Therefore they couldn't make circles. <br />How they placed exactly the seals isn't known. <br /><br />I suppose the seals were placed by LTT and 6 other powerful men while the other men defend them (together with some ten thousend soldiers).<br /><br />The question is if it would be better if there were women because they had be more powerful and maybe faster, or if it had been even worse the DO had then tainted Saidar, too.<br /><br />In any case, you can read it all in the short story! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br /><br />To gban007,<br /><br /><b> All this talk about proofs, and yet very little to be had.<br />The taint was finite, yet nothing in the scene of the<br />cleansing says one way or the other about saidin being finite or infinite, only that it is alot larger in comparison to what the taint was like.<br />There is evidence to say, as GG put, that the TP may be akin to the taint , which could mean it is finite as well, but again no proof one way or the other. </b> <br /><br />That's right. But my explaination makes at least some sense. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br />We don't need further proofs if only one explaination is possible (it's proof enough)!<br /><br /><b> One question I have (main reason for this comment): where is it said that the DO cannot use the One Power?<br />And if the DO is infinitive in power, how did the Creator manage to imprison him? </b><br /><br />Sure, it's never said that the DO didn't use the OP. <br />You will notice that many things in WoT are never said. <br />By thinking about and RJ giving some hints, you can find the answer, though.<br /><br />The DO can use the TP (I hope that seems clear). The Creator used the OP to turn the Wheel and maybe to create the world.<br />Since the DO could only taint one half of the OP, when he was somehow connected to it through the seal placing, we can assume that the DO hasn't access to the OP. <br />And it makes sense if you say like I that the Creator's Power is the OP and the DO's power the TP, that the DO can't use the OP.<br /><br />OK, there is no sentence in the books, &quot;the DO can't use the One Power&quot;. But it's so obvious that we don't need such proof. <br />I'm the same sure that Bela isn't the Creator, though it's never <i> really </i> proved in the books. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />And to your second question, as I said I believe that the DO isn't allmighty and that is quite obvious, too, cause as you said, he <i> is </i> imprisoned! <br />He is limited through the Creator and his powers, and through the fact that the DO can only use the TP, a chaotic power of destruction.


created: 2003-04-26 04:57:52
subject: <b>re etzel.</b>
body:
agree with most, except one over TP / OP isn't necessarily correct. after all, none of the asha'man or the aes sedai could taint either source, yet they have access to it.  Just because the Dark One doesn't have control over the OP doesn't mean he doesn't have access to it.  No proof for this of course, but I don't think it need be summarily discounted as a possibility, only discounted for relevancy (i.e whether he can use it or not has no real bearing, as he can do anything with the TP he could have with the OP anyway).<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Moridin/Ishamael's spiritual advisor.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-green.gif" border="0" /> Jedi Knight <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-green.gif" border="0" /><br />Proud Warder to Tatayana and Lanfear81.<br />In love with a beautiful English lady.<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-04-29 23:51:59
subject: <b>Re the finite/infinite question.</b>
body:
I'm sorry Green Gaidin but I beg to differ with you. Saidar/Sadin MUST be infinite otherwise it would be possible to use up all the Power and it has been stated more then once in the books that that is not possible.<br />However the Taint must  have been finate otherwise it would have been a waste of time for Rand to try and clean it like he did. The exact mechanics of this give me a headache just thinking about them so I will not make an idiot of myself by speculating.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I am cool, are you? <br /><br />The kicker of the seals <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <br />The flame that burned down Tar Valon <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />My arse is the Amyrlin Seat</font><p></p>


created: 2003-09-09 19:21:18
subject: <b>Simply mind boggling</b>
body:
Baphomet... I'm beginning to come to the conclusion that ALL of your theories kick serious butt.  If you don't write your own original fiction, you SHOULD.<br /><br />That there is some connection between all these characters is beyond a shadow of a doubt (no pun intended).  I think I may have a suggestion as to the exact nature of this link.<br /><br />When Semhirage is &quot;interrogating&quot; the Aes Sedai and her Warder in LoC, she rambles to herself about quite a few things.  At one point, she starts talking about the Warder Bond, pointing out that it is something the Chosen know nothing about, and implies that they don't fully understand.  With little or no segue, she goes into talking about Shaidar Haran.  Could this be just a coincidence, or something more?  <br /><br />Said simply, could the link between Ishy and Baalzamon be something akin to the Warder Bond?  Take a look at what the bond actually does.  It provides a sense of location and well being of the person on the other end.  It increases the endurance of the Warder.  If Ishy was &quot;bonded&quot; in some way to the DO, it would explain much.  Able to move about the world, with the DO knowing the basics of what he is up to would be invaluable.  If the increased endurance a Warder recieves comes from the OP, what would come of a Bond forged by the TP?  Access to the TP, possibly?<br /><br />As for why this singular distinction went from Ishy to a Fade upon the death of Baalzamon, I would think the answer obvious.  At the sealing of the Bore, the DO merely needed a set of eyes in the world while he &quot;slept&quot;.  I'll also point out that we only assume that Ishy was trapped at all.  The Trolloc Wars and Hawkwing are the only examples everyone brings up, but Baalzamon takes credit for all the false dragons throughout history back in EotW.  That adds three or four different locations in time to the &quot;escape cycle&quot; (not counting the FD that Hawkwing fought).  In the case of Shaidar Haran, he is preparing a physical body to inhabit once the seals are all broken.  A large difference, I would think.  Maybe the experience with Ishamael convinced him a stronger (or at least different type of... ) host to contain the totality of his essence.<br /><br />I am itching with curiosity to hear your thoughts on this one.


created: 2004-12-01 16:43:37
subject: <b>good job</b>
body:
i like this theory. its so much more interseting to read long, well explained and backed up theories than it is to read rushed ones... great job!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> let the speedbart ride again upon the winds of time <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Made the second post on the new WoTMB2 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2006-01-16 20:32:37
subject: <b>one power, true power, and the taint</b>
body:
Okay, considering the &quot;infinite depth&quot;, think of saidin as a spring, saidin flows up from below in an infinite supply, while the taint settles on top, saidin refills itself as it is used, but you have to go through the taint to reach it.  Perhaps the taint is a product of the mingling of the One Power and the True Power.  Lews Therin channeled saidin at the bore to seal it, when the DO fought back, the contact between them tainted saidin.  the taint isn't the true power, but is in fact a combinationof the two, since all of saidin wasn't hit only a finite portion was tainted.  Shadar Logoth still fought the taint since it still retained properties of the TP.  The OP replenishes itself as its used- like spring water is replenished by rain created during it's evaporation soaking through the ground, the one power re-enters the Source as it is used, but from &quot;below&quot; so it doesn't pass through the taint.  The TP is the DO's essence, saa is the accumulation of TP within a beings body.  Ishamael channeled so much TP over time that the Dark One's essence possessed him.  Rand killed Ishamael, but the TP couldn't return through the bore so it was forced into the body of Shadar Haran.  Shadar Haran's power is finite initially, but as the seals break it becomes possible for him to restore his energy at Shayol Ghul, if he stays away to long he will lose the Power and be a normal fade once again.  He didn't possess a myrddraal in the beginning because only a channeler can draw it out, but once the TP is channeled it can be forced into a diffrent host once the channeler dies.  Moridin draws the TP because the Dark One wants more of his essence free to influence the world, perhaps persuading normal people to perform certain, small tasks, to assist him, becoming unwilling, unknowing pawns.  It would also cause the bubbles of evil.  The OP is effectively infinite, and the TP will be once the Dark One is free.  The taint is finite.  When Moridin channeled balefire and it met Rand's, they created taint and were caught with the full force of it, but since the balefire was nothing compared to the Bore's sealing the Taint was minor and went unnoticed by other male channelers, but Moridin and Rand were put in pain and they were tainted themselves, thus their connection was formed, they alone carry THIS Taint on their souls, that is why Lews is still mad, his soul and the hundred companions' souls were permanetly marked by the taint.


created: 2003-04-07 14:31:32
subject: <b>Good point, but...</b>
body:
I noticed this too, but I don't think that it means that he one of the forsaken.  It just means that he went to the DO and plegded his allegience to him.  The DO can make the taint not have an affect (as we all know)on you, or protect you from it.  It just proved to me that he was a dark friend from the beinning.  That was RJ's clue (a very simple one)for everyone to at least suspect him to be a bad guy.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Front Man for the MH club</font><p></p>


created: 2003-04-07 14:44:10
subject: <b>Not exactly...</b>
body:
Demandred is ruled out by RJ himself. In one of the more recent Q&amp;As, if you care to look it up.<br /><br />Moridin, nope. Taim attempted to kill Rand before Moridin lifted the ban on killing Rand.<br /><br />Osan'gar (or is it Aran'gar) is Dashiva IIRC.<br /><br />Are there any other living male Forsaken?<br /><br />Rahvin, Sammael, and Asmodean have all died, so that rules them out.<br /><br />So, it does show that Taim is strongly a Darkfriend and potentially has ties to the DO, but he cannot possibly be a Forsaken.


created: 2003-04-07 16:05:48
subject: <b>How do we know Taim has the spark?</b>
body:
Men begin channelling at 25 the latest assuming they have inborn ability. What if Taim is just one of the people who can learn to channel? He trained himself to reach the source. He would show his age and only start slowing once he started to channel.<br />


created: 2003-04-07 16:14:07
subject: <b>I am fairly certain I remember RJ stating somewhere....</b>
body:
I am fairly certain I remember RJ stating somewhere that some men started slowing around 35.  Men with the spark start later than women with the spark so it is likely that the begin slowing later as well.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">RabidWombat<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> Let the Lord of Rambling Thoughts rule <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> Proud owner of a 2 star rating! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /> Someone stole all my cookies <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-04-07 18:32:00
subject: <b>He dosen't have to be either the real Taim or Forsaken.</b>
body:
Bashere commented that Taim looked different when they first met - perhaps this was age related, as well as the beard. It would have been easy enough for one of the Forsaken to track down a Darkfriend who can learn to channel and train them up to replace Taim. Taim was captured and released, so there were good chances for a switch to be made. That kind of planning fits the Forsaken, especially Demandred, who likes proxies, or Moridin, who likes o work both ends of the board.


created: 2003-04-07 19:28:56
subject: <b>Who Taim is, is a mystery</b>
body:
But he is not one of the original Forsaken.<br /><br />There is only one that he could be and that is Moridin-- and he doesn't seem at all likely to me.<br /><br />Moridin's personality is more of a behind the scenes manipulator, than a up front battle commander and army raiser.<br /><br />I wish we could answer this question-- but right now we can't.<br /><br />He is either the real Taim, possibly turned, or an imposter proxy Taim.  Beats me which.  RJ has clearly left this a mystery.  I can't wait to see why.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ADA- AlannaDawn Anonymous-- helping wotmaniacs recovering from their AlanndaDawn Addictions in a dynamic new 12-step program.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-04-07 23:03:03
subject: <b>The rules don't necessarily apply the same way to men</b>
body:
Assuming something happens to men 'cause it happens to women with the Power is dangerous.  As Egwene said, the similarities only seem to emphasize the differences.  Trying to assume they could make a weave the same way as a man could lead to anything from blisters to being sucked out of the Pattern (consequences of absorbing heat and boring a hole for a gateway, respectively, if a woman tries either).  And Nynaeve has been channeling for long than three years.  If all female channlers start to slow at the same age (they always do, according to Elayne), than it has to be past the maximum age.  If the White Tower won't take girls over eightteen, they must not start after 18 (in three thousand years, they would almost certainly found an exception if there were any).  Since the comparison of ages in regard to channeling seems similar to the ages at which men and women acheive sexual maturity, that could mean any age is when men slow.  Women would slow in early adulthood when they are at their most opportune period for conceiving a child, but since men don't lose the capacity as a standard of their life cycle, their early adulthood means very little as a sexual milestone.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


created: 2003-04-08 01:01:53
subject: <b>I may just be ignorant but</b>
body:
Does it ever say Taim is 35 or does he just look 35? The reason I ask is it is very possible to look a different age than you are (even without channeling effects). Also channeling slows getting old but it doesn't show growing up. What I mean is if a 2 year old were to start channeling (I know that can't happen) he wouldn't stay looking 2 forever. He would probably grow normally. Most 35 year olds don't have much in the way of old people features just maturity features implying to me that you really wouldn't notice a difference in age.


created: 2003-04-08 05:27:32
subject: <b>Sir Lancelittle</b>
body:
You're right.  Elayne said in CoS, that everybody (women at least) slow at the same age, regardless of when they start channeling.  She's 18, and too young to have slowed, according to Setalle Anan, while most people mistake Nynaeve for 20 or so (Queen Tylin in LoC, Moiraine &amp; Thom in EotW).  So women probably slow at 19 or 20.  Rand is 20 in the beginning of LoC, and says Taim looks 15 years older than he does.  That's where the age stuff all comes from.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


created: 2003-04-08 05:53:18
subject: <b>Taim is no Forsaken</b>
body:
The only possibility was Demandred. But after WH and RJ's comment, &quot;Taimandred&quot; is as good as impossible.<br /><br />Also Moridin is impossible (at least) after WH. <br />Taim gives the renegade Asha'man orders to kill Rand (what Moridin doesn't like so much). <br />It makes no sense at all, that Moridin gives the same Asha'man later different orders about Rand (bring his possession before everything else). <br />But there are of course many other points that speak against Moridin being Taim.<br /><br />Taim is probably a high Darkfriend (and has protection from the taint), was maybe Ishy's disciple and will become a new Forsaken in my opinion.


created: 2003-04-08 08:55:14
subject: <b>Agree with Etzel</b>
body:
I agree with Etzel in that Taim will probably become a new Forsaken.<br /><br />I think we are seeing a new generation of Forsaken evolving in this age - after all the wheel turns and another age will come. The current Forsaken were powerful Aes Sedai in a previous time.<br />So Taim, a very powerfull channeler will turn to the Dark One (if he hasn't already) for more power.<br />I believe that Nicola has great potential to be a &quot;future&quot; Forsaken as well: she is very powerful and a very naughty girl...<br /><br />First ever time I posted anything so apologies if I don't make any sense.<br /><br />


created: 2003-04-09 05:30:53
subject: <b>Why Taim doesn't slow</b>
body:
Aes Sedai can only tell the truth - as they see it, if they believe something wrong they can still say it. They believe that channeling makes your slow, and it onsets a while AFTER becoming Aes Sedai (ie swearing on the oath rod).<br /><br />None of the other channelers in tWoT have shown the signs of slowing like the Aes Sedai have - the Aiels channel a tonne and aren't described as ageless, the kin have channeled for centuries without attaining it, Ashaman train like a prize fighter before a big bout with no signs of slowing, even the Forsaken are normal looking.<br /><br />I always felt the reason Taim did NOT show the taint was because he hasn't sworn an oath upon the rod <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Jheran...<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" />Insert witty remark here<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-04-09 08:57:53
subject: <b>Taim NOT a Forsaken</b>
body:
Taim cannot possibly be a Forsaken. RJ has stated clearly that Taim is not Demandred. Who else is left? No one! All of the other male Forsaken are accounted for!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">May you always walk in the Light,<br /><br />Adan, Jenn Aiel</font><p></p>


created: 2003-04-09 15:23:12
subject: <b>Slowing isn't the ageless look</b>
body:
Slowing isn't the ageless look. You gain the ageless look after swearing on the oath rod but all channelers attain slowing. The Aes Sedai during AOL didn't swear on the rod but many of them becam eat least 600 years old.


created: 2003-04-09 21:17:19
subject: <b>question:</b>
body:
first off: how could taim have taught himself to channel? IMO he's done some (apparently) complicated stuff. i mean, rand needed asmo to teach him stuff, and he's the dragon reborn..<br /><br />second: if taim has been channeling for so long, how did he escape the Reds? and why did he wait so long to get his 'false dragon' on?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">-slider<br /><br />Yes, Rand al'Thor. I hate you with all of my heart. I do. And I always will.<br />     -Aviendha</font><p></p>


created: 2003-04-10 12:45:43
subject: <b>Enough with Taim being one of the Forsaken...</b>
body:
We know from the books how much Rand's face has changed. I can't remember which book it was in, but somewhere he was discribed as being hard, but not as hard and cold as either Taim or Logain were when they were claiming to be the Dragon Reborn. Now, if Taim was harder and colder than Rand, who is very stone like, then it only stands to reason that he would age a bit quicker than normal. Maybe this aging would be seperate from the Slowing, meaning that he could still go through the Slowing, but because he'd grown so hard, it would look like the Slowing had started later.<br /><br />Do I make any sense?


created: 2003-04-10 22:48:43
subject: <b>while I agree that it is possible for Taim to be much older than he appears</b>
body:
There's no real evidence for it.  Even assuming you're right that a man would start slowing at age 29, how much he slows depends on how much he channels and how strong he is.  Obviously Taim is quite strong, however, considering that he only proclaimed himself to be the DR a year or so earlier in the books it is unlikely that he was channeling much in the time before that, so he likely wouldn't have slowed much.  Then there's also the possibility that Rand just can't guess people's ages and Taim is only 27 or something and therefore has only been channeling for a few years.  No matter what the answer, he's not one of the original 13 Forsaken, he may however be a new Forsaken, that's my personal theory.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sir Jim<br />Lord of Minutia&#8482;<br />King of WoT MB Posts&#8482;<br /><br />Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-04-20 05:22:21
subject: <b>A more interesting line</b>
body:
I thought Taim being a darkfriend was pretty well established, but this still doe not make him one of the Forsaken.<br />On a more interesting note, I'd like to know how old Logain is and how long he's been channeling. We know he's been channeling longer than Rand, probably years longer if he's reached his full strength and knows all the cool stuff he knows. The taint has not affected him and we've never even caught a glimmer of it from his point of view.  Perhaps he has some sort of protection (i.e. the Creator or the DO). Wouldn't it be cool if he was protected by the Creator?


created: 2003-04-27 23:30:50
subject: <b>where?</b>
body:
I keep hearing that RJ refuted Taimandred in an interview.  Does any one have link to this? I have not been able to find it.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Semper Fi</font><p></p>


created: 2003-05-01 11:05:13
subject: <b>Slowing, Taim, and his age</b>
body:
Perhaps Occam's razor is appropriate here.  We all look older after a particularly difficult night with little sleep, or in times of lots of stress.  I think that Taim's entire life qualifies as a time of stress.  Even the Aes Sedai (Don't remember who or where) have been described as furrowing their brow in times of stress or concentration, and that makes you look like you have wrinkles, if only momentarily. This may be stretching a bit, but if slowing starts at 30, and he looks 35, well, I just don't see him getting much sleep.<br /><br />Wenchgirl


created: 2003-05-22 13:36:12
subject: <b>assumptions are the mother of all</b>
body:
*ahem* anyways. They're talking about slowing with female Aes Sedai. Do we have any proof of that with Taim? Also, look at how late some tower residents jsut develoepd touching the souirce heavily. Slowing is a part of using the power. Taim may not have used it till he was much older.


created: 2004-07-18 13:45:09
subject: <b>SLOWING HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH HOW MUCH YOU CHANNEL</b>
body:
just look at the kin!!! They hardly ever channel so they dont draw attention, but the oldest kin is over 600 years old! And most of them are older than many of the Aes Sedai.<br /><br />I dont have my books with me so i cant get the quotes but just reread the parts where Nynaeve and Elayne deal with the kin.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">There can be only one, may it be <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/uno.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-08-29 14:54:06
subject: <b>Taim's age</b>
body:
Maybe I missed this somewhere, but everyone seems to forget one important thing.<br /><br />Yes, men do slow. What if they channel the tainted saidin? We haven't got a single valid example! The taint is definitely not healthy. Maybe it cancels the slowing, or maybe it makes you age faster.<br /><br />So Taim could be 30 but looks 35.


created: 2004-10-07 19:07:58
subject: <b>I've always thought that Taim is just a modern dreadlord</b>
body:
it makes the most sense<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">badassasha'man<br />Life is Good</font><p></p>


created: 2006-05-18 15:21:25
subject: <b>Just because...</b>
body:
I agree that Taim may be rather old,<br />but that does not make him a Forsaken.<br /><br />Also, though I can't be dead sure on this,<br />the &quot;old&quot; Forsaken have not mentioned any new ones.<br />And while all Forsaken business is slightly on the secretive side,<br />I do think a &quot;new&quot; Forsaken would be brought up at some point.<br /><br />


created: 2003-04-09 12:38:22
subject: <b>Hah!</b>
body:
&quot;The implications of this line of conjecture are nothing short of astounding&quot;<br /><br />Heh, sorry, this line just made me laugh.<br /><br />It was pretty obvious that Mat and Perrin are on their way to meeting up (assuming something doesn't happen) just from general reading of CoT, but it's good to have this theory to refer to so I can stop saying &quot;Mat is heading generally in Perrin's direction&quot;.


created: 2003-04-09 15:14:33
subject: <b>I hope so!</b>
body:
I really hope this theory is right. Perrin and Mat have been seperated for so long, and each of them has what the other needs. And your right. Poor Perrin has gone for books and books now with absolutely nothing to do except sigh about Faile and complaine about what must be done. Poor guy.<br /><br />


created: 2003-04-09 15:50:13
subject: <b>Why, Perrin, Why?</b>
body:
I don't see why Perrin doesn't have his two asha'man dress up like nobles and ride into the shiado camp &quot;by mistake&quot; and be made gai'shan. The two ahsa'man could search the shiado camp quickly and easily for the prisoners and gate them out of their without any trouble at all because the women would not be able to sense them channeling. Heck, if the asha'man infiltrated the camp, they could probably kill most of the wise ones before they left too. If they were careful about it. - End rant.


created: 2003-04-09 16:46:51
subject: <b>I hope</b>
body:
Good theory, I was concerned it wasn't going anywhere but it does show us that the two are on a collision course.  I like it.  Good job, must have been tedious(sp) work.  I do like deathwatchbob's comments about sending an asha'man into camp, makes sense.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Front Man for the MH club</font><p></p>


created: 2003-04-09 17:26:44
subject: <b>Another side consequence---</b>
body:
Excellent theory.  Excellent work.<br /><br />If this actually comes together, it may make me start liking WoT again.<br /><br />There is one corollary effect.  You mentioned the Band, Tallanvor's Shaido, Perrin's forces, masema, and Mat's little circus.<br /><br />There is also the Seanchan forces that are trailing Mat.  These may come to be the X-force.  If Perrin has a scroll, and if Tuon intervenes, then Perrin might end up with alot more than just 15,000 Seanchan.  And he is going to need them...<br /><br />Perrin and Mat meeting up, may also give Mat the Asha'man he needs to go and find his Band in time, and also learn of other events in the world.<br /><br />This could be very, very interesting, and very, very messy.<br /><br />I also liked how you threw the Tower of Ghengei into it, but I have no idea how that would come into the plot considering that they are currently no where near it.<br /><br />One last thing I've wondered about is if Mat and Perrin will still get along.  Things have greatly changed, and Perrin and Rand no longer get along so well.  I would really like to see those 2 together, because we have never had that many interactions between the 2.  It could be really cool.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ADA- AlannaDawn Anonymous-- helping wotmaniacs recovering from their AlanndaDawn Addictions in a dynamic new 12-step program.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-04-09 23:02:38
subject: <b>An Explosive Combo</b>
body:
Assuming your conjectures are true, and I believe they are, we are going to see the birth of modern seige tactics.  Perrin has trouble with the wall and the cistern.  He is thinking of ways to turn the cistern to his advantage.  Enter Mat with gunpowder.  Cistern and walls go boom!  That would be most distracting and dangerous for the Shaido.<br /><br />Woody


created: 2003-04-10 00:12:13
subject: <b>Cool</b>
body:
It would indeed be great fun if Perrin and Mat got together.<br /><br />I also like the idea about the Asha'man infiltrating the Shaido.<br /><br />You know, the Shaido really bug me. What is their purpose? I mean, how stupid are they? Couladin has been dead for 5 books already and they were clearly shown up (by Sammael) -what are they even trying to do now?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">May you always walk in the Light,<br /><br />Adan, Jenn Aiel</font><p></p>


created: 2003-04-10 03:34:05
subject: <b>It makes some sense</b>
body:
But I don't think Mat will stay long with Perrin. <br />I have the feeling that Rand and Perrin will meet soon because of Min's viewing (that something bad could happen to Rand otherwise). <br />It's not yet the time that all ta'veren are together again.  <br /><br />I think the Shaido battle will be done before Mat and his crew arrives at Perrin's army. Mat will be reliefed, at last a he can rest some days there. <br />But shortly after that, Thom says something like:&quot;Mat, you and the others are secure now here with Perrin. I have to go to Caemlyn! Rescue Moiraine. Read her letter&quot; <br /><br />Everybody is confused and stuff, but then Mat takes his hat, the Ashandarei and mumbles: &quot;Blood and bloody ashes...&quot;, and aloud, &quot;I come with you, Thom!&quot;<br /><br />Several people will join Thom and Mat (Noal, Olver, Tuon and a few more). <br />And what is important, Mat has now access to someone you can channel a Gateway, the Asha'man. <br />One of them (I say Grady) will bring the group to the Tower of Ghenjei. They will rescue Moiraine, she will know important things and then the Asha'man brings them fast to the place Moiraine wants to, probably to Rand &amp; Perrin. <br />Voila, all ta'veren are together with Moiraine, shortly before TG. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />In any case, even if it doesn't happen so exactly, I believe the reason of Mat's plot meeting Perrin's plot will be &quot;just&quot; that Mat gets a Gateway making guy (but he can rescue Moiraine then!! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> ).<br /><br />Good theory, Diomedes!


created: 2003-04-10 08:31:30
subject: <b>not bad!</b>
body:
I think this theory was the best I've read in some time. Congratulations.<br /><br />Concerning Etzel's comment: we know since The Eye of the World that something horrible will happen to Rand. Min had viewings, later supported by some of Egwene's dreams, that Rand would become a beggar, and something like death would happen to him. He wouldn't die but he'd be buried or something of the sort. Maybe Perrin won't be there for the second time, and that will lead to all this.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">My head aches through trying to stop you giving me a headache. - R. D. Laing<br /><br />When in doubt, look in the Books. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-04-10 13:38:58
subject: <b>Since when does anything in WoT happen the way we expect</b>
body:
I find this theory interesting and well thought out.  (The only problem with it is that the author should have started with the main point to hook in the readers from the beginning.)  I don't, however, necessarily agree with the consequences.  Mat and Perrin may meet up but then again they may not.  RJ is adept at (and seems to take perverse pleasure in) taking the story down paths noone expects.<br /><br />Another possibility is that Mat, Perrin, AND Rand may meet in Ebou Dar.  Perrin can Travel there to pick up Seanchen reinforcements, although it would be risky.  Rand is heading there to meet Tuon.  (I don't buy the fake DotNM argument for 2 reasons.  First Tuon isn't likely to remain captive for much longer (she has a job to do).  Remember Tuon has openly taken control of the situation at the end of CoT and that there are raken nearby.  Second, epilogues are by definition after the main action. Sometimes the occurance happens in the timeline of the next book or even 2 books later as in the siege of the WT.)  If Tuon leaves it is possible she will drag Mat with her.<br /><br />Having them all meet in Ebou Dar would open up a lot of possibilities.  Perrin will have evidence that Suroth is conspiring with Masema.  Rand could be collared and hurt by women who can chanell and Perrin will be near to save him.  Rand could pick up Mat and Perrin and send them on any number of missions.  Perrin could pick up some extra troops maybe even a few more asha'man.  Mat would gain the ability to travel, plus in Ebou Dar he will be closer to bell-founders.  Plus Mat has unfinished business with a gholam.<br /><br />RAFO, my friend, RAFO<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">RabidWombat<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> Let the Lord of Rambling Thoughts rule <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> Proud owner of a 2 star rating! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /> Someone stole all my cookies <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-04-10 16:43:59
subject: <b>Wow</b>
body:
I must admit that I did not expect this kind of consensus.  Where are all the flames, outraged denials and counter arguments?  Ah well, I guess I'll just have to take the good with the...good.<br /><br />Hey thanks, guys.  I'm glad people are getting something out of it.  I was actually inspired to write this after seeing a theory on the MB that Mat was headed to the White Tower to help Egwene. I'd like to respond to some of you specifically:<br /><br />Three in a Boat: You have no idea how many mutations that particular sentence went through, all for your amusement <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Matrimony Cauthon:  Channelers, Spears, and Gardners, oh my! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" />  I hadn't thought that Mat and Perrin might not get along, because even when Rand was acting like a jackass in TGH Mat and Perrin were still very close.  A lot has changed, though... <br /><br />Adan: I think Jordan's using them as a wildcard element, and part of &quot;human&quot; evil. An added challenge and distraction to the guys in white hats.  Also a vehicle for the uber-bitch Sevanna's character.<br /><br />RabidWombat: Thanks for your comment on the hook.  I did that on purpose, but tried to leave a tantalizing clue in the intro paragraph.  I thought the clue might not be strong enough, and will definitely keep your comment in mind next time.<br /><br />As for the rest, I really thought this was a fun theory because it is a nice starting point for a lot of speculation.  I really like the ideas everyone is coming up.  Before I become really long winded (too late? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/blush.gif" border="0" />) I'll end this one with something that occurred to me recently: &quot;Daughter of the Nine Moons&quot; is Tuon's title as heir to the throne, and she has been simply High Lady Tuon since donning the veil.  What if, due to Tuon's disappearance and/or political wrangling, there is a new heir?<br /><br />ps. Come on guys, no thoughts on Berelain PAENDRAG's future role in all this??<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Diomedes <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-04-10 18:34:14
subject: <b>Rabid Wombat</b>
body:
RW actually has one of the best ideas.  One that I have seen before, actually.<br /><br />Let's consider a scenario:  Rand goes to Ebou Dar and he ends up getting captured by Semirhage.<br /><br />Eventually, Mat and an outraged Tuon learn of this.  Perrin, in the vicinity, also learns.  Perrin is, of course, fated to save Rand one more time.  This could be that time.<br /><br />This could lead to a great convergence near Ebou Dar, almost like a Roman orgy of a great majority of the armies in WoT.  Let us also not discount the Whitecloaks.  And the Black Tower could arrive at any moment should they wish.<br /><br />Actually, this kind of clustering could be the kind of thing that leads to the last battle.<br /><br />My original thought was that the White Tower would lead to the Last Battle.  <br /><br />But we will have to see.  Who is to say that Rand's ta'veren effect will not bring stop some of the conflict of the White Tower, and bring all eyes to his own situation?  <br /><br />I don't know, but this theory is definitely something to think about.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ADA- AlannaDawn Anonymous-- helping wotmaniacs recovering from their AlanndaDawn Addictions in a dynamic new 12-step program.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-04-10 19:43:02
subject: <b>Huhuh, you said Roman orgy!</b>
body:
Good posts everybody.<br /><br />I have been more than stimulated by the discussion.<br /><br />I can't wait to get my digits on this one!


created: 2003-04-10 23:36:27
subject: <b>Malden found</b>
body:
<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> Malden is a small town located due North of Boston, MA as the Dark One's raven's fly. There is a small, uninhabited, but lovely stedding Nor'east of Malden in Swampscot near the ocean.<br /><br />Just a little aside:  Please if you've never been to Boston in the Fall, visit once before Tarmon Gaidon!<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Good work Diomedes <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> It's only a flesh wound <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-04-11 00:04:51
subject: <b>Too easy</b>
body:
Dude, that's just too easy.<br /><br />I am telling you, RJ reads all these comments and goes<br />something like this:<br />&quot;So you have all figured out what's going to happen in the next book? Ha! *Throws thousands of pages into a fireplace*<br />I'll show them!&quot;<br /><br />And then we will see Perrin travel to Shara, and Mat <br />will take a southeast fork down the road to Illian,<br />and Tuon will become a Maiden and play Cat's Cradle<br />with Aviendha day and night.<br /><br />I WANT MOIRAINE BACK!!!!<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />


created: 2003-04-11 04:07:01
subject: <b>Counter-arguments, as requested.</b>
body:
Diomedes said, &quot;I must admit that I did not expect this kind of consensus. Where are all the flames, outraged denials and counter arguments? Ah well, I guess I'll just have to take the good with the...good.&quot;<br /><br />I have two points wher I think you're wrong -- veryminor points, but possibly significant.<br /><br />First, I don't think Malden is on the Lugard Road from Ebou Dar.  Your general location of 150 miles east of the Eldar river is a bit further than &quot;three days travel&quot; at the pace of Perrin's supply carts.  I don't think it can be much over 90-100 miles from the Eldar River.<br /><br />More importantly, the Lugard Road is a main artery of trade, and there are no signs of heavy traffic on the road through Malden.  <br /><br />Malden would therefore be on a secondary route to Boanda in Ghealdan from east-central Altara and somewhere northeast of Salidar.<br /><br />Second, Even if Malden is on the Lugard Road, there are still a good many leagues between Mat and Perrin.  I estimate that it is 70-80 leagues from Mat's last known position one day from the Eldar river crosssing, about 20-25 leagues from Ebou Dar, to a point on the Lugard Road due east of Salidar -- 280 to 320 miles.  At a normal pace of travel, that's a month or more; at the pace Valan Luca's Show travels, that's as much as six months travel.<br /><br />However, you've done an impressive job of narrowing down the location of Malden and I heartlily commend you for a good theory.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">You can't win T'G with the <i>Half</i> power.<br /><br />It will tke the <i>ONE</i>  Power -- <i>Saidin</i> and <i>Saidar</i> in equal parts, woven into a single weave!</font><p></p>


created: 2003-04-11 05:56:05
subject: <b>Great Theory</b>
body:
This theory really makes me see how the series could be wrapped up in just a few books.  I wonder if RJ intended Mat and Perrin meeting as a big surprise, like some of the surprise reunions in the Lord of the Rings.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I love Trillessa</font><p></p>


created: 2003-04-11 09:08:11
subject: <b>Malden's Breach</b>
body:
ctown woody momentarily touched on how the Battle of Malden could be fought. Perrin's Wise Ones, Aes Sedai and Asha'man might stand beside Seanchan damane in spite of the Seanchan's horror of marath'damane, against the Shaido Wise Ones. To balance out the Shaido's Wise Ones, Mat could put gunpowder into play with Aludra.<br />This could mean that this would be the first time ever that Aiel take refuge behind city walls in the siege, with Sevanna taking up residence in Malden's fortress, naturally. Gunpowder or the One Power could be used to attack Malden's weak spot: the aqueduct. Blow a part of it up and there's only the cistern to give water to the Maldeners and Shaido. With such a limited supply of water, the Maldeners would be that much more willing to betray their own city to Perrin and the Seanchan. The only ways to get into the besieged city would be a betrayed city gate, through the aqueduct, or Gateways opening within the city.<br />Burn me, this could be how the Seanchan damane finally learn how to Travel: Perrin, in order to get Faile and not caring about the consequences, might order his Aes Sedai to teach the sul'dam how to Travel. From there, other Seanchan would eventually know how to bypass the nations and go straight to Tar Valon. Let's not forget Tuon. She's with Mat and Mat may soon meet Perrin, and Perrin has 15,000 Seanchan allies through Tallanvor. The Daughter of the Nine Moons is suddenly found in Malden's province!<br />Of course, the above is merely speculative imagination. The Light illumine the next book's revelations!!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Gaeran Amaconde<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />Grand Historian at the Court of the Sun<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />One of Those Chosen to Bring the Light<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" />Master of Graendal's Revels<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" />&quot;If sometimes our dreams come true, what of our nightmares?&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-04-11 12:44:21
subject: <b>Convergence</b>
body:
I have been thinking (vaguely) that some major convergence is coming in this part of the world that will likely either be or at least be a major precursor to the Last Battle. One other thing... The Borderland Armies. I know they're still far away, but didn't Elayne say that they would profit by searching for Rand in Altara? There you have another major army moving in that general direction which will have some yet-to-be-determined role to play.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />I need a nap.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-04-11 12:56:04
subject: <b>Rand could get in this, too</b>
body:
For one thing, his truce with the Seanchan is already a rumor among the Seanchan in the Mat chapters, so it's only a matter of time before them finding out it's Rand, which would provide impetus to go looking fpr him with a little more speed than Mat has been moving at so far.  With Tallanvor feeling the need to look south combined with Egwene's extorted rpomise not to get involved in fighting in Murandy, he might be moving in Mat's direction already.  Don't forget, Mat is one of the few wetlander military leaders to have any sort of successful experience against the Shaido, so he could be the missing piece to help combine all these elements into a force capable of beating Sevanna<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


created: 2003-04-11 14:18:19
subject: <b>Weird Harold, Mountains, and Maps</b>
body:
Hurray! I knew I could count on Weird Harold! Also, I blame Matrimony for dragging this discussion into the gutter <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Harold, I disagree with your assessment that they're NE of Salidar.  I think they're SE of that town, because they traveled somewhere between 18 and 30 leagues south of Abila before turning east.  I also think the crossed the Eldar AT LEAST 3 days ago, and probably more like 5 or 6.<br /><br />Also, in terms of how long Mat will take to get there, think about the idea that the Shaido probably have scouts out, and are likely disrupting life in general in their area.  Remember, Rolan and company were scouting 10 leagues from the main body when they captured Faile.  Now, the show is traveling 2.5 leagues &quot;on a good day&quot; and your estimate of distance to the Road east of Salidar seems reasonable, but that means about 35-40 days.  Since I disagree with your estimate of Perrin's location, and if Mat sees signs of the Shaido he's probably going to ditch Luca in an effort to bypass the Aiel(at leat I would in his position), I would estimate he might be no more than a week or two away from Perrin. <br /><br />I said in the body of the theory that Therava was probably referring to the Hills of Kintara, but I'm disclaiming that now. I finally finished a re-read of CoT, and Mat mentions the Dorion(sp?) Mountains on the Altara-Murandy border, and it seems more reasonable that she meant these.  This also shows how bad the maps are, because there is no indication of mountains on the black and white map on this border, and the color map does show some brown here, but it's really hard to see where this range extends.<br /><br />Anyway, the glaring hole in this theory is Arganda, Alliandre, Seonid and Masuri.  They should all be at least somewhat familiar with the area, but none of them have named it the Great North Road.  However, this is a good opportunity for RJ to bring several things together. I especially like the idea of Tuon meeting her long lost cousin Berelain.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Diomedes <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-04-15 02:22:28
subject: <b>Why I think Malden is NE.</b>
body:
<font size="-1"><b>Harold, I disagree with your assessment that they're NE of Salidar. I think they're SE of that town, because they traveled somewhere between 18 and 30 leagues south of Abila before turning east. I also think they crossed the Eldar AT LEAST 3 days ago, and probably more like 5 or 6. </b></font><br /><br />To me, two points argue against them being SE of Salidar.<br /><br />1) space:  There is more space (and foothills) between the Eldar River and the Lugard Road north of Salidar than there is south of there.  There is no indication that they've crossed the Lugard Road or are in close proximity to it, so they have to be west of the road.<br /><br />2) Previous wanderings:  <br />Salidar is about 25-30 leagues south of Boanda, at the juncture of the river joining the Eldar at the border of Ghealdan and Altara.  There is one other major city on that stretch of river as well as disclose by Nyneave and Elayne's trip to Salidar.  <br /><br />Siuan, Leanne and Logain arrived in Salidar from the East/North East and encountered a few towns in that direction, IIRC.  <br /><br />Perin and co have to have traveled NE from a river crossing South of Boanda and North of the other border town north of Salidar to reach un-traveled territory.  <br /><br />IIRC, the crossed theEdlar River about 6-10 days ago, <i>but they haven't moved since they found the Shaido</i> -- they're camped two days travel by pony cart from So Habor, which is NOT on the Eldar River, but on a tributary that probably isn't shown on the map.   They're also camped about one day's hike/ride West of Malden.  That puts Malden three days travel -- 30-40 leagues east of So Habor and four days (40 -50) leagues East or Northeast of where they crossed the Eldar River.  <br /><br />They did travel south from Abila -- which I place nearly due west of the river junction and Boanda -- and then generally East.  However, turning due East would put them passing nearly through Salidar or the Border Town just north of there and into the territory traveled by Siuan and Co or Gareth Bryne and his troops.  Only slighty North of that line would put them into the territory the SAS army and Band of the Red Hand traveled through to get into Murandy, but they haven't had any word of two big armies passing through, only of the Seanchan and Whitecloaks to the East.  <br /><br />There simply is too little space to hide Malden in South of Salidar and East of the Lugard Road, so I believe they had to have turned Northeast just after the river crossing.<br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Also, in terms of how long Mat will take to get there, ... Since I disagree with your estimate of Perrin's location, and if Mat sees signs of the Shaido he's probably going to ditch Luca in an effort to bypass the Aiel(at leat I would in his position), I would estimate he might be no more than a week or two away from Perrin. </b></font><br /><br />That assumes that a) Mat would abandon Valan Luca's Show to the Shaido's depredations and b) Mat is still in charge of where he's going.  <br /><br />Mat denies being a Hero, but he's NOT the type to abandon people to face the Shaido when he can do something (like use Aludra's firework mortars to defend the show) to protect them.<br /><br />Also, it's fairly clear that Tuon has taken control of things at the end of CoT.  I believe Mat is, quite against his will, headed back to Ebou Dar and will help Tuon and Rand foil Suroth and Anath's plans.  <br /><br /><font size="-1"><b> Mat mentions the Dorion(sp?) Mountains on the Altara-Murandy border, and it seems more reasonable that she meant these. </b></font><br /><br />The border between Altara and Murandy is the Manatherendrelle River, which the color map I have shows as flowing through plains along that stretch.  There are the &quot;Dorloth Hills&quot;(sp) in the North of Illian along the Murandy border which are generally East of Salidar -- however, they're a hundred leagues or so beyond the Lugard Road.<br /><br /><font size="-1"><b> However, this is a good opportunity for RJ to bring several things together. I especially like the idea of Tuon meeting her long lost cousin Berelain. </b></font><br /><br />I agree it's a chance to bring some storylines back together, but I think the reunion will happen in Ebou Dar.  Rand has an invitation to visit Ebou Dar.  Tuon has pressing business she's been neglecting in Ebou Dar.  Perrin is NOT with Rand and should be to prevent &quot;women who can channel&quot; from hurting him.  He's got the capability to get to Ebou Dar on short notice, and the Rainbow Effect to tell him when Rand needs him -- whether he'll rescue Faile in time to heed the Rainbow Effect is the big question.<br /><br />Berelaine and Tuon's meeting could be interesting, but I suspect it will be somewhat less interesting than people would like it to be.  <br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">You can't win T'G with the <i>Half</i> power.<br /><br />It will tke the <i>ONE</i>  Power -- <i>Saidin</i> and <i>Saidar</i> in equal parts, woven into a single weave!</font><p></p>


created: 2003-04-17 15:29:41
subject: <b>Weird Harold</b>
body:
I went back and looked at &quot;To Boannda&quot; and &quot;Sallie Daera&quot; in TFoH, and I couldn't disagree more with Weird Harold.<br /><br />1) space: There is more space (and foothills) between the Eldar River and the Lugard Road north of Salidar than there is south of there. There is no indication that they've crossed the Lugard Road or are in close proximity to it, so they have to be west of the road.<br /><br />I'm going to adress the first point you raised here in a second. As for the second, I listed 3 things I thought indicated that Malden is actually ON the Lugard Road.  The most important is that Perrin describes an actual road running generally north-south through the city.  The second is that he describes Malden as a CITY, not a town, village, etc. Finally, someone designed an elaborate system for bringing water to that specific location with aqueducts and windmills, when it would have been much easier to build the city at the water source.<br /><br />2) Previous wanderings: <br />Salidar is about 25-30 leagues south of Boanda, at the juncture of the river joining the Eldar at the border of Ghealdan and Altara. There is one other major city on that stretch of river as well as disclose by Nyneave and Elayne's trip to Salidar. <br /><br />I won't argue with your estimation of distance, because it seems pretty reasonable, and, if your interested, the river joining the Eldar at Boannda is named the Boern.  I saw absolutely no indication of another population center between Boannda and Salidar, however, and here's Nynaeve description of the river journey south of Boannda: &quot;Below Boannda, woods closed in tightly on both sides of the river, unbroken tangles of trees and vines.  Villages and farms vanished.  The Eldar might as well have run through wilderness a thousand miles from human habitation.&quot;<br /><br />Siuan, Leanne and Logain arrived in Salidar from the East/North East and encountered a few towns in that direction, IIRC. <br /><br />That's right, they hadn't seen even a village for two days, and there are a couple other interesting aspects to the information in &quot;Sallie Daera&quot; as well .  One is the distance they travel, from Lugard to Salidar in only 15 days.  Another is that they were on the road from Lugard to Jehannah, and turned south shortly after crossing the Manetherendrelle (there's spelling bee word for ya <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />) and weren't on the Great North Road from Ebou Dar at all.<br /><br />IIRC, the crossed theEdlar River about 6-10 days ago, but they haven't moved since they found the Shaido -- they're camped two days travel by pony cart from So Habor, which is NOT on the Eldar River, but on a tributary that probably isn't shown on the map. They're also camped about one day's hike/ride West of Malden. That puts Malden three days travel -- 30-40 leagues east of So Habor and four days (40 -50) leagues East or Northeast of where they crossed the Eldar River. <br /><br />By combining the information found on pages 220 and 592 of CoT, we know that Malden is 14 leagues E-NE of So Habor.  We also find out on page 170 that it has been 22 days since Faile's capture, and on 173 we learn that, &quot;Yesterday morning, he had come to a tiny village...Brytan,&quot; where he learns that the Shaido are only 2 days ahead.  So, this is the 1st day that they haven't moved.  By your own estimation they have been riding east from the Eldar, through gateways, for 5-9 days and have only gone 10-20 leagues.<br /><br />Perin and co have to have traveled NE from a river crossing South of Boanda and North of the other border town north of Salidar to reach un-traveled territory. <br />There simply is too little space to hide Malden in South of Salidar and East of the Lugard Road, so I believe they had to have turned Northeast just after the river crossing.<br /><br />This goes back to your very first point, too, but I would like to point out that Altara has no northern border.  We know that Tylin didn't ever really control much of the country beyond Ebou Dar.  It seems like as you progress north from that city you pass through districts, towns and cities that more or less govern themselves.  Eventually you pass in true hinterlands with basically zero population before crossing a border into another country.  My main point to all of my arguments in this post is that we see from two perspectives, Min and Nynaeve, that the area north of Salidar is essentially vacant, while Perrin has seen a sizable city, a large town, two specifically mentioned villages (there was one where he crossed the Eldar) and many general descriptions of Shaido depredations.  All of this indicates to me that Perrin is south of Salidar, in lands that are at least somewhat populated.<br /><br />That assumes that a) Mat would abandon Valan Luca's Show to the Shaido's depredations and b) Mat is still in charge of where he's going. <br /><br />I didn't mean to imply a) I think that Luca will simply turn around and head back to Ebou Dar as soon as they start to hear rumors of trouble ahead.<br /><br />Also, it's fairly clear that Tuon has taken control of things at the end of CoT. I believe Mat is, quite against his will, headed back to Ebou Dar and will help Tuon and Rand foil Suroth and Anath's plans. <br /><br />The relationship between Mat and Tuon is going to be very interesting, but I would point out a couple of things.  First we still don't know much of anything about Tuon in terms of what motivates her, or what she wants.  She does seem to have some positive qualities, but is mostly still unknown.  It also remains to be seen how much influence she will exert over Mat's future course of action.  She can certainly tell the sul'dam, her maid, and maybe Egeanin and Setalle what to do, but the rest are firmly behind Mat.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Diomedes <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-04-18 22:04:36
subject: <b>Just like old times....</b>
body:
....haven't been here in a while.  Good theory/ Good comments.  The old boys are out as well.  Thanks for the good reading.<br /><br /><br />Columbo is retired!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2003-05-02 06:40:04
subject: <b>A little late Light</b>
body:
Just to put in my 2 cents.<br /><br /> Mat has to be captured soon, as per Egwene's dreams of him having his arms tied around his back to his ashandarei. This also balances out Perrin's and Rand's earlier capture as well. This may come about by Semirhage and Suroth.<br /><br /> Also, the Finn's saying he would give up half the light of the world to save the world could very well mean he surrenders Tuon(DotNM- sun/moon, each representing half the light of the world)<br /><br /> BTW, great work!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2003-05-12 18:35:55
subject: <b>makes sense</b>
body:
it makes sense to me.  for one, mat seems to be heading where perrin is right now. and mat seems to be drawn into battles (part of him being taveren?) even if he doesn't want to. though the presence of Tuon and Egeanin might cause some stir among the seanchan party, it'd make more sense for having a pretense that Tuon is married to Mat (or maybe not a pretense) to work things out---unless Mat could find a way to hide 3 damanes, 2 suldams and Tuon/Selucia. Also, if Mat gets drawn to Perrin's situation, he would most likely think of having more reinforcement (as a good battle strategist). using the ashamans, it's possible for Mat to get his &quot;band&quot;. the only problem with this is that Mat knows that his band is with Egwene, and if he ever traces them near tarvalon, a presence of an ashaman would cause a stir among SAS coz of the &quot;mysterious deaths&quot; and the fact that he could also get drawn to SAS trouble of having to rescue Egwene.


created: 2003-05-17 22:18:43
subject: <b>Mat and Perrin might not be the only reunion...</b>
body:
...if this theory is right, and I think it basically is.<br /><br />Consider the possibility of Thom meeting Morgase!<br /><br />Very messy indeed.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="green">Heterodox but Orthoprax</font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/crazy.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><font color="purple">As fast on the draw...<br />...as he is in the drawing room!</font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smackhead.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-05-25 12:57:59
subject: <b>Tried to check the facts...</b>
body:
...it's not easy, given the nature of the books. Essentially, the thing that disturbs me the most is teh strong Seanchan presence where Mat is, and the near-total lack of it near Perrin. It could be a ploy by RJ, blinding us to the fact that Mat and Perrin are aproaching each other.<br /><br />My question is, couls someone pinpoint the dividing line between Seanchan rule and the lawless lands Perrin is travelling?<br /><br />respectfully<br />-Heiti<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">The only way to convince me is by providing some evidence!</font><p></p>


created: 2003-11-17 01:59:19
subject: <b>How to win?</b>
body:
I always assumed the reason Tuon gave Luca the warrant but specified Mat and his crew as not being protected by the warrant was to force him to leave the traveling show. Which would mean they cover about 10-20 times as much ground per day. So Mat could arrive on scene with Perrin any time. I would not be happy if Mat went straight back to Ebou Dar after spending the entire book 10 leaving the damn place, so hopefully he'll link up with Perrin.<br /><br />However, I see no solution for the problem of how to take on 500 Wise Ones. Also there is the problem that anything strong enough to beat 500 wise ones is going to cause mass havoc. Sure, Rand could grab a few hundred channelers from all over and that would be enough to win the battle. But another Dumai Wells sort of thing would kill Faile and the rest of her captive friends. Unless the Shaido do something stupid like put all the gai'shain inside the city and all the soldiers outside or something.


created: 2004-01-08 17:26:55
subject: <b>It adds up to me</b>
body:
Hi,<br /><br />I just wanted to say that I agree with the idea that Mat and Perrin will be hooking up, and causing a multitude of forces to come together. Recapturing Faile is important to Perrin, for obvious reasons, but I like the idea of this many characters coming together for the simple fact that RJ has indicated he is beginning to wrap up the story (supposedly only two more books). I can't help but think of the aftermath of combining the forces in this area. Tuon and a sizeable (not overwhelming but still significant) contigent of Seanchan. Perrin's troops, Tallanvor, and Mat. <br /><br />I think Mat will find out that Egwene has been captured, and he'll want to 'save that fool girl' again. We already know/expect the Seanchan forces to successfully invade Tar Valon, and now Mat came help them do so, by commanding the Hand and the Seanchan troops in battle.<br /><br />I also like it because Perrin can run south to save Rand, while leaving Mat with a predicament. Remember how Mat is supposed to betray Rand? What if it is as simple as he and Perrin disagreeing about going to Rand's aid. Maybe Perrin goes, and Mat goes to Tar Valon. <br /><br />I think this is most intruiging because it helps to finally resolve some of the major issues remaining prior to the outbreak of Tarmon Gai'don. By my reckoning there are at least 5 major actions which must occur before the Last Battle begins; the Andoran situation/Borderlander army/Black Tower scenario, the rescue of Moraine from the Tower of Ghenjin (pardon the spelling errors), Rand must confront the Seanchan, be collared and be rescued, Perrin must save Faile, the White Tower must be invaded by the Seanchan and presumably the situation with the remaining Aes Sedai (with their army) must be decided/reunited with White Tower survivors; all before and our heroes must gather to fight the Last Battle.<br /><br />Minor plots abound to be resolved during the mean time (Berelain and Galad, Morgase, etc), so Jordan has a lot of material to cover if he's really going to finish in just two more books. It would also be a fitting conclusion to many of the plot lines, and a true start to the climatic ending.<br /><br />We'll RAFO, but I think this must be near RJ's plan.


created: 2003-04-23 16:56:20
subject: <b>I think its the Seanchan</b>
body:
I'm convinced that the light refers to the White Tower and/or Aes Sedai.<br />Perhaps with Mat's aid, the Seanchan can enslave the White Tower, which would unite the remaining Aes Sedai, as well as unite most of Randland under the Seanchan.<br />It would be half the light because the Salidar Ajah still stand, or because of the Black Tower.  <br />We know that Mat has had to make difficult decisions in the past, but since he has become affiliated with Tuon and the Seanchan, this may be the key to him 'giving up half the light of the world.'


created: 2003-04-23 18:39:25
subject: <b>The One Power?</b>
body:
Maybe Mat could be responsible for the world giving up the One Power? That could be considered a direct tap into the Creators light, so giving it up (for example to make the walls around the Dark One's prison whole) could give up half the light of the world (since the Creator would still be there it wouldn't be giving up everything). Seems more like a job for Rand, but Mat could have some pivitol role, possibly by betraying Rand.


created: 2003-04-23 21:09:20
subject: <b>I think you have the wrong idea about Mat's comment</b>
body:
and the portal stone.<br /><br />Mat's comment was:  &quot;Rand, I'd never tell anyone about--- about you.  I wouldn't betray betray you.  You have to believe that!&quot;<br /><br />I think what Mat actually saw, was that he betrayed that Rand could channel to some Aes Sedai.  They then wanted to gentle him.<br /><br />The first line, when Mat says that he would never tell anyone-- about you, explains it all to me.<br /><br />If you just read the 'I wouldn't betray you' part, I think you could come up with some other explanation, but it seems pretty clear that he was just talking about Rand's identity as a male channeler and nothing more.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ADA- AlannaDawn Anonymous-- helping wotmaniacs recovering from their AlanndaDawn Addictions in a dynamic new 12-step program.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-04-23 22:18:36
subject: <b>I thought this had already been written on, but we needed a theory...</b>
body:
I think that also another interpretation of the &quot;i wouldn't betray you&quot; thing might be taht they go somewhere and are trying to accomplish somethign and they are &quot;undercover&quot; and Matt might accidentally let slip that rand can channel and people somehow get ahold of him *seachan?* *shrugs* its all so vague,we really won't know until we have more info or more books. *sighs*<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /> True Power is knowing that you can, but you don't. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-red.gif" border="0" /> -Deathbone1 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-green.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Current rank in Wse PTS: 164 out of top 1000 (7/8/03)<br />We are men of action. Lies do not become us.<br />Life finds a way.<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-04-23 23:35:29
subject: <b>Battle Decisions</b>
body:
I'm still leaning to Demandred using a 'gateway blitzkreig' at the start of the Last Battle by attacking a number of the 'Light's military strength' on the same day. Mat with the HoV in Illian can only defend one place.<br /><br />The Black and White Tower will be attacked on the same day. Mat chooses the Black Tower (half the light (eye) of the world - saidin) and Egwene and Gawyn die a horrible death  and the majority of WoT readers begin a ten day feast of thanksgiving to RJ that he finally killed the two most stupidiest and irritating characters in WoT   <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Well one can dream  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />


created: 2003-04-24 04:57:24
subject: <b>Good idea</b>
body:
People thought that the &quot;giving up half the light of the world&quot;-prophecy was connected with Egwenes dream in TFoH, ch.15: &quot;Mat throwing dice with blood streaming down his face, the wide brim of his hat pulled down low so she could not see his wound&quot;, and with the Odin-like character of Mat, the god who spend an eye to get wisdom.<br /><br />Therefore it seemed obvious that &quot;give up half the light of the world&quot; refers also to Mat's losing of an eye.<br /><br />What speaks for your interpretation is that &quot;give up&quot; sounds quite voluntary: Mat gives something up. <br /><br />It's hard to believe that Mat would give up voluntary one of his eye;, cut it from his face, or something. <br />And I think most people who say that Mat will &quot;lose&quot; an eye say it will happen by accident/unvoluntary (e.g. when he invents cannons).<br /><br />On the other hand, if Mat would betrayal Rand/the Light it will happen voluntary (even if Mat doesn't like it). The &quot;give up&quot; would fit better.<br /><br />The scene with the portal stone seems to support your theory, too. <br />Although matrimony cauthon has given another likely explaination. <br /><br />Besides, I think Perrin is the more likely candidate to betrayal Rand/the Light at the moment (and I doubt both friends would betrayal Rand).<br /><br />Of course it could be that Mat loses an eye AND betrayals Rand. <br />Which of both things was meant in the giving up-prophecy is then everybodies choice. <br /><br />I must say I still believe Mat will lose an eye and that this is meant in the Finn prophecy. Perhaps Perrin will betrayal Rand.  <br /><br />In any case, your idea is good and maybe right, who knows.


created: 2003-04-24 14:24:06
subject: <b>No no no, you all are missing the most obvious...</b>
body:
The earth is lit by TWO sources - sun in day, moon at night. <br /><br />Tuon is the Daughter of the Nine MOONS and Rand is the Lord of the MORNING/He Who Comes with the DAWN.<br /><br />The phrase in the prophecy simply plays with the meanings of these two titles. Mat will have to &quot;give up&quot; Tuon or Rand to save the world. <br /><br />I will not try to predict what &quot;give up&quot; could mean.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Husband of B.B.McGee. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/egwene.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-04-24 16:31:36
subject: <b>I'm not convinced</b>
body:
I'm still inclined towards the conventional 'lose an eye' theory.<br />Besides, I think we need a major character with an <br />eye-patch <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/uno.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="orange"><i>She bit the bowl clean off the spoon<br />http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8uozGujfdS0&amp;feature=related</i> <br /></font><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-04-24 22:53:00
subject: <b>Agree!</b>
body:
Finally, someone put into writting what Ive believed but been to lazy to write. I think that part someone mentioned about the porthol stones works as a side bit, too. I think that he will actual turn to the Shadow with the intention of getting &quot;inside&quot; information for the Light, then turn back right before TG.<br /><br />Someone earlier mentioned Egwene and Gawyn dieing-a ten day feast wouldn't do. More like 10 thousand!


created: 2003-04-25 00:06:49
subject: <b>Another Possibility...</b>
body:
Of course the other possibility, especially since both the Mat viewing and the Thom viewing were in the same sentence, is the following. Mat now knows some of the formalities of the Aelfinn and he sets the price of saving Moraine as his own eye. But that does not necessarily goes in accordance with Jordan constantly mentioning that the only way to win at the game Snakes and Foxes is by cheating. Odin gave up his eyes to drink from Mmir's (sp?) Well to gain wisdom, it is possible that the same could be true - gaining wisdom from the Aelfinn. All good things come in time, and I do not think that there is enough evidence to lead us to believe one thing or another.


created: 2003-04-25 12:41:09
subject: <b>heres an idea</b>
body:
its a little thin but I don't think that this quote neccesarily has to come true before TG. Maybe when Rand/LT seals the bore again the dark lord will retaliate and taint saidin once more. If that happens and rand survives mat might give away half the light of the world ig rand to save the world from a second beaking. <br /><br />Its just a thought and i can't prove any of it is true so go ahead and rip it apart<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> foolish_gaidan <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />There must be a reason for a name like this <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />One ring to rule them all, one ring to find them<br />One ring to rule them all and in the darkness bind them<br /><br />And that belongs to Me <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/crazy.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-04-25 15:34:47
subject: <b>I like it!</b>
body:
&quot;Its a little thin but I don't think that this quote neccesarily has to come true before TG. Maybe when Rand/LT seals the bore again the dark lord will retaliate and taint saidin once more. If that happens and rand survives mat might give away half the light of the world ig rand to save the world from a second beaking. <br /><br />Its just a thought and i can't prove any of it is true so go ahead and rip it apart&quot;<br /><br />No, I'm not going to rip it apart. I like this idea. I doubt the book will end as soon as TG ends, and there aren't too many theories about what's going to happen after. It also fits in with Humperole's idea about Dawn/Moons or Rand/Tuon. If he had to &quot;give up&quot; Rand, that could be seen as &quot;half the light of the world&quot; considering Rand is his best friend and, he will probably end up marrying Tuon.<br /><br /><br />


created: 2003-04-25 21:26:25
subject: <b>On a tangent,</b>
body:
The author appears to believe we will get Book 11 in 1.5 years (18 months).  Does this strike anyone else as being overly optimistic?  I mean, FoH (11/93) to LoC (11/94)= 12 months; LoC to CoS (6/96)= 19 months; CoS to PoD (10/9<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" />= 28 months; PoD to WH (11/00)= 25 months; WH to CoT (1/03)= 27 months.  Crossroads of Twilight has been out for three and a half months, which means the theory's author expects Book 11 to be out less than 22 months after CoT.  We can only dream.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


created: 2003-04-26 04:02:37
subject: <b>A Brain-collision</b>
body:
First: Talmanes, Amen. I heartily agree.<br /><br />The ideas about Mat's betrayal (via matrimony cauthon) and Tuon/Rand (via Humperole) just collided in my brain with the last scene from CoT, and Masema's ramblings, and everything else...Bear with me.<br /><br />Rand has been called  &quot;the Creator made flesh&quot; and also his character borrows liberally from Christ symbolism.  Rand as the Son, with the Creator as the Father and the OP the Holy Ghost? And the Creator is the &quot;light of the world&quot;, so would half of that be....Rand?<br /><br />Plus Rand is walking into Semirhage/Suroth/Demandred trap using a false DotNM (since the real one is with Mat).<br /><br />And Rand must still &quot;kneel before the Crystal Throne and swear to the Empress, may she live forever&quot; (yeah I know that's corrupted, but it's more Rand+Seanchan stuff)...<br /><br />So, say Rand and Mat and Tuon are captured in this big trap.<br /><br />Does Mat betray the open secret of Rand's channeling <i>saidin</i> to the Seanchan? Is it to them, and not Aes Sedai, to whom he spills the beans? And don't they kill male channelers on sight?<br /><br />However that's resolved (with the good guys winning), it would lead in nicely to the viewings/dreams of Seanchan attacking and leashing half the White Tower, and Rand seeing the full fury of the Amyrlin Seat (Egwene, by then), since Rand would be with the Seanchan and with Mat and with the real DotNM, and thus probably allied/in control of them.<br /><br />Anyway, this sounds really half-baked because I am tired, but it all seems to fit together to me so far.


created: 2003-04-27 11:07:48
subject: <b>Get your theology right</b>
body:
Rand is referred to as the &quot;Light made flesh&quot; and only in a metaphorical way by people who have gone around the bend.  In Christian theology, Christ is consubstantial with God the Father, meaning They are equal and &quot;one in being.&quot;  They are not &quot;halves&quot; of a single divinity and are not individual 'gods.'  They are two of the three distinct Persons in One God.  WoT theology seems to lead more to a sort of Gnosticism anyway, with a good god and a bad god, and to the idea of the Creator as a clockmaker, who winds it up and sits back without participating.  See Rand's mental rant during his meeting with Logain and Bashere for an example of this line of thought.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


created: 2003-04-27 18:00:28
subject: <b>OOOOOO</b>
body:
or by betraying rand he just goes off with Tuon and her crowd keeping them out of the final battle...maybe the emperess is a darkfriend or something


created: 2003-04-27 19:42:40
subject: <b>i dont think so</b>
body:
i think the half the light of mat's world is his immunity to the one power.and also losing an eye is connected. i think he will bargain his medalion which only has one eye for the release of a certain Aes Sedai there by fullfilling both visions concerning him.


created: 2003-04-27 21:49:55
subject: <b>its late and im having a rant...</b>
body:
Love some of the ideas here, maybe a lot are half baked but all makes you think. It should be obvious by now that giving up half the light of the world does mean Mat losing an eye, there have been enough hints and visions (to the person that mentioned the sun and the moon being the 2 major sources of light, the moon is not a source of light it reflects the sun you fool, its just a big mirror!).<br /><br />The question is how does he lose an eye? There have also been hints that Mat will betray Rand some how. So maybe he does have to make some sort of temporary unholy alliance with the shadow (giving this prophesy 2 meanings). I am not certain who or why but my theory is since they are now both connected with the Seanchan it will involve Semirhage (Anath, if you need to ask).<br />


created: 2003-04-28 03:30:22
subject: <b>The moon is a source of light!</b>
body:
It may not produce light, only reflect it, but at night time, it reflects light onto the earth that wouldn't otherwise be there i.e. it is a source of light.<br /><br />Especially considering the age this is set in, the people would look up and say, &quot;hey look the moon is bright, it is easy to see at night by a full moon, can't see much by stars only, therefore the moon is a source of light&quot;.


created: 2003-04-28 09:08:53
subject: <b>How about this?</b>
body:
I posted this same theory basically several times and it never got up. Thank the light that someone else saw it my way. But I also wrapped another part into it. I think the partial betrayal will be when the Dark forces Mat to blow the Horn of Valere in a battle against Rand. This, would of course backfire, because Mat would not have the Dragon Banner, but you understand how it could be possible. I figure, Jordan kept saying in TGH that the Shadow could use the horn as well, so it stands to reason that it would at some point, be used by the shadow. <br /><br />Man, if I were an Aes Sedai, I'd be white<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">By the way of the leaf, I shall obey</font><p></p>


created: 2003-04-28 14:36:06
subject: <b>I agree</b>
body:
I think Matt will betray Rand.  I recently tried to post a theory on this but it was not well received.  I believe that Isshi/Mordin has established a link with Mat (tide a string to him)  In TEoTW, Matt wakes up streaming that Isshi took his eyes.  I believe that this is how Isshi is using Mat and how Mat will Lose an Eye.  He will realise that Isshi has tided himself to him and remove an eye, which will free him from Isshi's power.  A very good theory on this is in the message board (a theory I found) entitled A Mat Pawn.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Front Man for the MH club</font><p></p>


created: 2003-04-28 15:21:57
subject: <b>Good point</b>
body:
Matt giving up his eye volunterily to save Moirane makes a lot of sense - he is giving it up rather than loosing it, and if we take Min's viewing about Rand failing without a woman who was dead and gone to mean Moirane, it all comes together nicely. So far, RJ is very literal in explaining the prophecies and dreams(the herons, the dragons, Perrin's women, Nine Moons, the one who is no longer,etc.) even when neither the readers nor the characters know what they mean, so it makes sense that Matt would lose an eye literally.


created: 2003-04-28 15:46:09
subject: <b>hmmmmm</b>
body:
i know everyone (well almost everyone) is convinced mat is going to lose an eye, and with all the other odin references in his character i wouldn't be surprised, but i don't think giving up half the light of the world has anything to do with the eye - prophecies aren't usually that self-centered.  it would be pretty silly to think just because one character can only see out of one eye, that the loss of vision represents the light of half the world.  personally i think he's going to lose the eye while trying to develop the gun in some explosion, but anyway.. . <br />i take the light of half of the world a little more literaly.  who populates half of the world? the seanchan.  mat is marrying into the ruling family of half of the world, and he knows the secret that can destroy them - the sul'dam can channel.  we all know what this would mean to seanchan - it would destroy its very ideals.  moreover, since tuon is able to channel, it seems likely she wont cover this up, a la suroth. hmmmmm, sending half of the world's civilization into utter chaos in an effort to save the other half. . . sounds an awful lot like the prophecy to me.


created: 2003-04-29 00:10:56
subject: <b>Mat as a darkfriend</b>
body:
there's a great theory about mat being a darkfriend on the wot message board.  it's called:  &quot;a theory i found&quot;<br /><br />it basically says that mat was converted in tEotW when they were having dreams with ishmael in them.  he was then given subtle directions to follow. (freeing fain from fal dara.) and others.  and when he picked up the dagger, it disolved his memory of bending to ishmael.<br /><br />this effectivaly makes him a &quot;sleeper&quot; darkfriend, an unkknowing servent.<br /><br />but i haven't done this theory any justise, so check it out yourself.


created: 2003-04-29 14:36:02
subject: <b>I agree in part</b>
body:
Yes, this will look familiar as I've posted this before.<br /><br />I agree that the &quot;giving up half the Light of the World&quot; does not necessarily refer to his loss of an eye (which I still think is going to happen). I think it has to do with Mat betraying and killing Rand at Tarmon  Gai'don.<br /><br />The Light of the World, IMO, is the Creator and the Dragon. So if you got rid of the Dragon, you've gotten rid of half the Light of the World.<br /><br />You pointed out Mat's exclamation of &quot;I'll never betray you.&quot; A statement like this is blatant foreshadowing of an eventual betrayal.<br /><br />The reason Mat will kill Rand is he has no choice. Rand will turn to the Shadow in the end, becoming the Champion of the Dark. Mat will replace him as Champion of the Light, and will have a showdown with Rand. Rand can't hope to beat Mat. Why? Mat has that neat foxhead ter'angreal which negates Rand's only advantage (don't forget RJ favors staff fighters over sword users).<br /><br />Of course, the death of Rand isn't truly death. Somehow, Nynaeve or someone else will Heal Rand back to life. Either that or some other mechanism will be used by RJ to save Rand al'Thor from death, if not the Dragon (Rand&amp;LTT).<br /><br />Crossroads really didn't give me any reasons to think this idea is wrong.<br /><br />And yes, for those who remember, I do still think Perrin will fall to the Shadow for at least a short time before the end. How does that line go? &quot;The right hand falters and the left hand strays...&quot;???<br /><br />--imlad<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">--imlad</font><p></p>


created: 2003-04-29 21:08:22
subject: <b>yeah</b>
body:
that's weird how eyes work. Did you know that if you lose your eye, you only lose 1/5 of yor vision?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I like PSO. Oh, and yeah, I hope Egwene dies. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-05-06 19:24:02
subject: <b>Nice.</b>
body:
I like this theory. I agree that we really don't know what will happen, but I tend towards believing that Mat losing an eye and giving up half the light of the world are two separate events.<br /><br />I also noticed, that several people in this thread mentioned Mat giving up half the light having to do with the Seanchan, but noone at all mentioned the male a'dam, which, the Seanchan have.<br /><br />Food for thought?


created: 2003-05-11 22:24:00
subject: <b>Hail!</b>
body:
I raise your Chalice to hail you! You've finally put the right words (and some proof) behind what I've been thinking/saying for quite some time now. This was, in fact, my very first interpretation of the prophecy... despite the fact that the loss of an eye makes sense...<br /><br />I still think this is the correct answer to the enigma. It's definitely the most interesting, plot-wise!


created: 2003-06-21 17:31:14
subject: <b>food for thought</b>
body:
Everyone knows Rand has been called the Light of the World. So what is half of Rand? LTT! I have no idea what this means. Just something to think about.


created: 2003-08-04 17:27:18
subject: <b>what if?</b>
body:
Now this is a pretty thin theory itself but think about it.  Now the Horn that is connected to him has the essence of all the heroes that are constantly reborn what if giving up half the light of the world is centered on mat somehow destroying the horn?  once again probably not true but something to think about, or what if it has to do with the illuminator stuff that he is dealing with what if the fireworks backfire and end up killing his own people or the aes sedaior someone similar?


created: 2003-11-05 19:26:43
subject: <b>One Wonders...</b>
body:
My first thoughts upon reading the theory were that Matrim giving up half the light was infact to help Rand, not betray him.  I thought that Mat would do this by marrying Tuon and somehow convincing her to set the Aes Sedai, sul'dam and damane free.  In a way pacting with the devil to save the light.  <br />     However I also like the idea of Mat losing an eye, it does make perfect sense, and seems quite an interesting theory.  But I DO NOT think that Mat will betray Rand in any intentional way.  As to the theory that Mat will have to give up either Tuon or Rand, is it not obvious that he would give up Tuon, he doesn't want to get married, espescially to Tuon, who is royalty, which he hates, Seanchan, which he hates, and last but not least, a channeller, which HE HATES!  So the fact that he would have to give up one or the other wouldn't be traumatic enuf, it would be an easy decision.<br />    Another thought that crossed my mind was that the last time we saw Mat in CoT he was laughing because Tuon was wearing the fabric rosebuds he'd bought her.  And did he not say three times that she was his wife and that was basically his &quot;I do&quot; by Seanchan standard, so if Tuon were to say three times &quot;He is my husband&quot; they are automatically married.  And since she was wearing the rosebuds, I'm doubting Mat's gunna be a bachelor for much longer, if he still is one at all.  I doubt I'm right in any of my theories, but maybe a few things for the rest of you to chew on?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">master of clumsyness <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /><br />born without common sense<br />fighting crime with a bass guitar named ruby <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tinfoilhat.gif" border="0" /><br />fan of cows<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br />and saner than the insane <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/crazy.gif" border="0" /><br />CANADA KICKS SLANG FOR MALE DONKEY!!!!</font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-20 19:40:21
subject: <b>Two things</b>
body:
First of all, (IMO) when it says &quot;the right hand falters&quot; it's reffering to Mat, who's more or less the General of Rand's army getting deep into Seachan affairs.  &quot;the left hand strays&quot; is Perrin who's going to make an alliance with the Seachan to save Faile.<br />Now, when it says Mat is going to give up half the light of the world to save the world, it proves that he couldn't really be betraying Rand, because he wouldn't do that &quot;to save the world&quot;.<br />Now, this is waaaaay out there, but what if you see Rand as being &quot;the world&quot;.  If Rand is captured by the Seachan, they'd try to use the Sad Bracelets to control him.  What if Mat secretly gets him stilled, then the bracelets wouldn't work and he'd be saving Rand, and giving up half the light of the world (Rand's ability to channel), not all of the light, because Rand could still be healed.


created: 2004-07-08 09:52:18
subject: <b>WOW</b>
body:
i don't know, man.  i am fairly new to this site.  i have been reading the WoT series since i was 14 and some neighbor gave me book one.  i only read it because i thought he was cute.  anyway, he surely passed, but the books are still my obsession.  i am in the middle of my 4th reading of the series.  just opened up FoH his morning.  i have always thought i was a little 'different' because of how deeply i was involved with RJ's world.  but here.... seeing all these post.... all you people..... i have never felt more at home in my life!  heh heh heh.  matrim cauthon is my favorite character.  and you guys have some great theories.  i agree that mat would look really cool with the raven tatoos, i don't remember who said that.  and i think he will actually love Tuon and be loyal to both her and her country, should she choose to remain loyal to them.  i think our matrim will find a way to be faithful to his love as well as to his friend.  that is where the prickly situations, calling for some sort of compromise, will come into play.  but we've all seen mat handle those situations plenty of times.  and i think that the eye will be a play in freeing moiraine also.  i can't wait to see the way Jordan unfolds this.<br /><br />AAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!<br /><br />-pepper.


created: 2003-04-24 11:19:57
subject: <b>Slayer</b>
body:
I don't understand why this knocks slayer out?  It seems to me that Slayer can and will kill in a particularly evil and violent manner, so why shouldn't he be able to rip someone  apart?  And why send a gholam after people who can't channel?  You can, I suppose, but it seems like a waste of the gholam's talents. It makes more sense to send Slayer out on a contract killing.  Although, I do like the connection between the two deaths. After all, once you've scouted out a place to kill one person, the same killer being sent to the same place makes sense.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> My prophecy states that this prophecy will come true <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tinfoilhat.gif" border="0" /> My prophecy kicks your prophecy's butt <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tinfoilhat.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-04-24 12:07:50
subject: <b>Slayer</b>
body:
Why I know Slayer out is becouse, why would be sneak around in the real world when he can just step out from the dream world, take him with him and kill him there, no body to be found no proof, nothing.<br /><br />+ We haven't seen Slayer kill anyone like that before, we have seen the gholam, so the gholam makes more sence even there.<br /><br />That's my thought's about it atleast.


created: 2003-04-24 12:37:52
subject: <b>some good thoughts</b>
body:
On the one hand it seems logical that there are two gholams. <br /><br />I think Mat met the gholam in Ebou Dar only a few days after Fel was killed in Cairhien by a gholam. <br />Is it possible that he can travel so fast from city to city?<br />Even for a gholam it's a far distance so I doubt he run to Ebou Dar.<br />A gholam can surly not use Gateways (and with this not TAR) to travel. <br />What is with Waygates? There is one in Cairhien (was it closed, I really can't remeber). Maybe a gholam can use the Ways?<br /><br />If not, it's probably impossible that the same gholam was in Ebou Dar so fast after Fel's death; there must be two.<br /><br />Another interesting thing is that the Ebou Dar gholam doesn't recognize Moridin or more exactly the True Power. If Ishy was the master of Fel's gholam (or/and Barthane's gholam) he should recognize it.<br /><br />But on the other hand, I wonder where this first Cairhien gholam is at the moment? Why doesn't he do something useful like the Ebou Dar gholam? <br />We know that gholam need blood to drink (maybe that's also the reason why they like to torn off heads- they get easily blood...) but we don't hear of victims of the first gholam in Cairhien (or someone else) anymore.<br /><br />Also we have in no Forsaken POV a mentioning of a gholam, or that someone found a stasis box where a gholam must be into to still live (like Sammy's gholam).<br /><br />Maybe the first gholam is the DO's gholam at the moment and is back at SG. That would be an explaination. Perhaps the DO send the first gholam to Barthanes and Fel. <br /><br />But I still tend to believe that there is only one gholam in Randland. He killed Fel and then hunted the girls &amp; Mat in Ebou Dar. Somehow he could travel fast from Cairhien to Ebou Dar.<br />Barthanes was probably killed by Ishy for incompetence. <br />We see that Forsaken can also take heads of (Cyndane does it with this man shortly before the cleansing). Surly a Forsaken (especially Ishy) can kill like a gholam with the TP or OP if they want.<br /><br />In any case, some good thoughts with good arguments though I don't think yet it's complete right (e.g. that Ishy and the gholam are connected or that there are two gholam). <br /><br />But I will further think about it and mabye the discussion here can finally convince me. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />


created: 2003-04-24 12:42:57
subject: <b>maybe</b>
body:
maybe a gholam is just traped in Barthanes palace for some reason<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;so exactly what sound does a goat make when you throw it out a window?&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2003-04-24 13:08:18
subject: <b>As for the gholam killing non-channelers....</b>
body:
He has done it before, (Fel), and he was also sent after Mat Cauthon.<br /><br />Therefore, it there is a precedent for gholams killing non-channelers.<br /><br />Basically, this theory is based on 2 coincidences between Fel's and Barthanes death.<br /><br />1.  Being torn limb to limb<br />2.  Barthanes manner<br /><br />I think they may just be coincidence.<br /><br />At this point, I would say that the most likely explanation was probably that Fain left a few trollocs behind to take care of Barthanes for him.<br /><br />However, my only point about this is, who was the lurker that Rand heard?  Could a trolloc really have vanished that quickly?<br /><br />Or maybe it was a fade?  Except who commanded the Fade?  Fain didn't have under that time?  Shaidar Haran?  <br /><br />This is really a question that we need to ask RJ.<br /><br />It could help us solve some other problems in the wot theory universe, such as how many gholams there are, and who commands them.<br /><br />As for the grass quote, I don't think it means anything, but it does seem odd that Jordan put such a pointless observation in there like that.<br /><br />And how are sheep supposed to get in a tiny walled in structure, that didn't have a door on it (at least by recollection of this story?)<br /><br />Ahh, maybe it was just lack of sunlight?<br /><br />Who knows--- this whole problem has bothered me for a while, and bothers me even more that there are so many loose ends.<br /><br />Happy theorizing!<br /><br />Hopefully we can get Green Gaidin, Columbo, Light in the Night, Windsor, Rabid Wombat, Dom, and all the rest of you theorizers in here for old times sake!<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ADA- AlannaDawn Anonymous-- helping wotmaniacs recovering from their AlanndaDawn Addictions in a dynamic new 12-step program.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-04-24 14:41:31
subject: <b>Comments</b>
body:
First, I think that this theory is right, in that it would be interesting to know why Barthanes was killed and by whom.<br /><br />Second, the name is &quot;Ishamael&quot; not &quot;Ishmael.&quot; Notice the &quot;A&quot; after the &quot;H&quot; in his name!<br /><br />Third, the Guide says (if I remember correctly) there were six gholam created (3 &quot;male&quot; and 3 &quot;female&quot; - this is just how they appear, of course, since they're not sexed creatures).<br /><br />Fourth, I think that Herid Fel was killed because of his theories about the Bore and how to re-seal it (not because of his theories about cleansing saidin).<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">May you always walk in the Light,<br /><br />Adan, Jenn Aiel</font><p></p>


created: 2003-04-24 16:51:58
subject: <b>Why couldn't it be a myrddraal?</b>
body:
I don't a gholam would stick someone's head on a pole.<br />The gholam don't seem to have an evil &quot;sense of humor&quot;.  They just do their job, me thinks.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="orange"><i>She bit the bowl clean off the spoon<br />http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8uozGujfdS0&amp;feature=related</i> <br /></font><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-04-24 17:49:34
subject: <b>Fade?</b>
body:
It is interesting that some have made comments that the true killer would be a Fade.  If the lurker in the enclosed area was a fade, then why didn't it attack Rand, maybe take him into the waygate and staight to the Dark One.  In fact, this goes for everyone that might do this.  They could then turn Rand to the dark (13-13).  I don't think anyone was in the area.  Rand's just crazy.  Good try though.  I think that RJ may be planting a red herring.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Front Man for the MH club</font><p></p>


created: 2003-04-24 19:21:35
subject: <b>Quartering Idrien's Knowledge</b>
body:
The statement about Idrien hearing about people being torn limb from limb is not so unusual when we think about the era that Idrien lived in. RJ have repeatedly said that the story is set in an era similar to the 16th-17th century without gunpowder. Back then in our real history, a favorite form of execution was being drawn and quartered. I would not be surprised if a noble person or a monarch in WoT has ordered someone's limbs to be tied to horses or oxen and thus is torn apart to death. Barbaric, but common in Medieval and Renaissance Europe. Believe it or not, such violent executions were great entertainment for the public. Therefore, Idrien's knowledge may not be a real clear clue about the Shadow.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Gaeran Amaconde<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />Grand Historian at the Court of the Sun<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />One of Those Chosen to Bring the Light<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" />Master of Graendal's Revels<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" />&quot;If sometimes our dreams come true, what of our nightmares?&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-04-25 03:04:35
subject: <b>Sheep and grass</b>
body:
I find the sheep quote really interesting, because sheep don't just graze on grass, they will literally eat it down to nothing if they aren't moved.  So the fact that Rand thinks of sheep makes me think that the grass was VERY short; shorter than other grazing animals or someone shearing down the grass would have cut it.<br /><br />It's a fascinating clue, even if it is a red herring.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Raistlan<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> I think you may have me confused with someone else. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-04-25 05:34:45
subject: <b>Nope Kallandryl,</b>
body:
Thom killed the Cairhien King Galldrian after the king hired people who killed Thom's girlfriend Dena.


created: 2003-04-25 12:31:26
subject: <b>interesting</b>
body:
It is interesting that both the murders, fels and barthanes occered in the same place and in the same way. but i don't think that it leaves any definite clues as to who or what killed each of them although the ghoalm is a definite possibility.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> foolish_gaidan <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />There must be a reason for a name like this <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />One ring to rule them all, one ring to find them<br />One ring to rule them all and in the darkness bind them<br /><br />And that belongs to Me <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/crazy.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-04-25 15:09:43
subject: <b>40% Yes</b>
body:
Hey, what is going on?<br /><br />My theories usually score in the 90s or in the 00s.<br /><br />People either love them or hate them.<br /><br />40%?<br /><br />Maybe I'm not working hard enough, eh?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ADA- AlannaDawn Anonymous-- helping wotmaniacs recovering from their AlanndaDawn Addictions in a dynamic new 12-step program.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-04-25 16:40:51
subject: <b>The Gholam could have traveled via Gateway</b>
body:
We all know that a Gholam cannot be affected by the OP.  This does not mean that a Gholam cannot use things that are themselves affected.  Mat's medallion, in my understanding, absorbs OP flows just like a Gholam does.  It basically seems to give him the same immunity from the OP.  But as Elayne demonstrated, Mat can still be hit by pieces of manure propelled by the OP.  The clincher is that Mat can use gateways.  Unless I severely misremember (sorry, I'm at work and can't get my books now), Mat has used gateways since gaining the medallion from the Foxes.  I'm thinking specifically of the assault on Rahvin in Caemlyn and his transportation to Ebou Dar.  But I could be wrong.<br /><br />At any rate, if Mat can use a gateway, I see no reason a Gholam could not.  As such, there could be only one gholam.  Still, I would like to see some of the other gholams make an appearance or two before TG.  <br /><br />If the medallion / gholam connection holds up, I wonder if Mat could use the medallion to sense the TP (like the Gholam kinda can).<br /><br />The Fisher King


created: 2003-04-25 19:21:08
subject: <b>Thumbs Up</b>
body:
I'm conviced.<br /><br />Relieved as well. It's been so long since we've had a good and original theory around here.<br /><br />And I like the idea of there being more then one gholam.


created: 2003-04-25 22:57:57
subject: <b>Fain?</b>
body:
&quot;If the lurker in the enclosed area was a fade, then why didn't it attack Rand, maybe take him into the waygate and staight to the Dark One. In fact, this goes for everyone that might do this. They could then turn Rand to the dark (13-13).&quot;<br /><br />True, but this could have been done a thousand times in the series already, so it is not evidence against there being a fade. To me this just says that the DO needs Rand to willingly embrace the Shadow to win for all time.<br /><br />The mode of death also sounds just like Mashadar in Shadar Logoth or the Black Wind in the waygate. Maybe it was Fain?


created: 2003-04-28 11:30:54
subject: <b>RE: Barthanes Death- Short Grass Observation</b>
body:
I don't have my books with me, I'm at school, but I seem to recall in an interview, someone asking if Gateways could be made to open different directions.  Jordan replied, yes, they could, but he hadn't done any yet.  Perhaps, as it was mentioned, the flash of light could be seen, if someone was there who opened a Gateway to leave the area (the scrape of a boot), but what if the Gateway was made close to, and level with the ground?  Then the person escaping just drops into it and if it was down far enough, then the flash of light wouldn't be as noticible.  It certainly takes care of any tall grass as well. New way to mow your lawn!<br />Just a thought.


created: 2003-04-29 21:05:59
subject: <b>could it have been...Be'lal?!?</b>
body:
he was around...wait, no he wasn't...<br /><br />bu8t realle, how does this have anything gto do with the storyline? Who killed Fel?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I like PSO. Oh, and yeah, I hope Egwene dies. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-04-30 00:47:38
subject: <b>Why not Demandred?</b>
body:
Hey, I really like your theory, the one question I do have is why not Demandred?  I know he &quot;wasn't&quot; around per se in the narrative, but that doesn't mean he wasn't out and about in the world doing the work of the Dark One.  If the killer is the Gholam (which I agree with), I think we still need to consider the possibility that Demandred is the controlling entity.<br /><br />My other concern about the theory is we know the Forsaken are nervous around Gholam.  Someone (Moggy?  Asmo?) expresses discomfort at Gholam being loose because they are impervious to the OP and created solely to kill Aes Sedai.  Given this, I find it a little odd that a Forsaken would take the extreme risk of being in close quarters (the walled area) with a potential assasin of extreme power for the sole purpose of killing a non-channeling DF.  I think, then that this lends credence to the possibility that the unseen lurker was a Fade, possibly sent to make sure the job gets done.  Or maybe the Fade did it after all...<br /><br />Anyway, to summarize my points: I think there is a high probability that a Gholam (assuming there are 2 loose, which I also believe) killed Barthanes.  This Gholam was operating under Ish or Demandred's command, and the unseen lurker is a minion of the Dark, probably a Fade, because no Forsaken would take the chance of stepping into a cage with a creature whose sole purpose for existence is to kill channelers.<br /><br />But I guess you could say I agree with the basic premise of your theory.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Of course, that's just my opinion.  I could be wrong.<br /><br />&quot;Life is like WoT... You never know when it's gonna end.&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2003-04-30 23:39:30
subject: <b>I like it</b>
body:
But then again, I've always thought it was a Gholam since I read Fel's death scene.  And it most definitely was not Thom.  Thom hears about Barthanes death from his innkeeper, and then he resolves to kill the King of Town(doo hoo!).<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Vercingetorix<br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/803.gif" /><br />Theory Post Admin<br /><br />I went to the doctor the other day and all he did was drain some blood from my neck.  Don't ever go to Doctor Acula.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-05-01 11:03:50
subject: <b>Still</b>
body:
It still sounds like Slayer to me.  To me, the manner of death indicates that it wasn't a gholam at all, but someone or something else.  I don't think a gholam would put someone's head on a pike simply because I haven't seen it elsewhere.  Everytime the gholam kills, it does so in a methodical manner, i.e. rips the throat out and drinks the blood or rips the body completely apart but then it just leaves the body.  So the head on a pike indicates possibly a fade or slayer.<br /><br />matrimony -- Good point about the gholam being sent after other non-channelers.  Perhaps that indicates who killed who.  After all, if you know that there is only one gholam out there and one master of that gholam, then you know who sent it.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> My prophecy states that this prophecy will come true <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tinfoilhat.gif" border="0" /> My prophecy kicks your prophecy's butt <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tinfoilhat.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-05-01 14:30:53
subject: <b>Why not Fain</b>
body:
Paiden Fain plays a large role the TGH and we know he is around Cairhein.  He has also the he likes to kill vilently and that he more than human strength. He did nail a fade to the side of a barn


created: 2003-05-01 19:25:15
subject: <b>Not Fain....</b>
body:
Because Fain had already travelled through the ways.<br /><br />REcall that Hurin was able to smell his trail, and the trail ended right at the end of the ways.<br /><br />Fain had already left, and I doubt he would have returned.<br /><br />If Fain was involved, it would have been more likely that he would have left a Trolloc or 2 to finish off Barthanes.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ADA- AlannaDawn Anonymous-- helping wotmaniacs recovering from their AlanndaDawn Addictions in a dynamic new 12-step program.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-05-02 05:51:06
subject: <b>Why was Barthanes killed?</b>
body:
The answer to that question might help us figure out who had him murdered.<br /><br /> He was obviously a high ranking DF,- powerful,(influence, wealth, etc.)<br /><br /> We have seen the Shadow's minions offed for screwing up. What was Barthane's transgression? Helping Fain escape.<br /><br /> Who has had someone hunting Fain since TGH as a renegade?<br /><br /> Ishamael.<br /><br /> Does this mean that Slayer did it?<br /><br /> Not in my opinion. The method of the murder suggests a Gholam to me, although Ishy might have done it himself to make an example.<br /><br /> Sammael located a stasis box, as did Graendal, in a short amount of time upon their release. <br /><br /> Ishy has been in and out continuously since the sealing of the Bore. I think it is highly likely that he may have located many stasis boxes over that time, and may very well have a gholam of his own to command.<br /><br /> Even though Ishy was dead at the time of Fel's murder, I believe that he had more reason than anyone to have him killed. Ishy is the only one of the Forsaken to really know the DO's full plans, and thus would know that Fel was a true danger with the knowledge he had to give Rand. <br /> Just because we didn't see Moridin until later, is not indicative of when he was actually resurrected. When Moggy first sees him, his eyes are already showing the saa, an obvious sign of much use of the One Power. And being the DO's champion would assure him of a quick comeback in a good body.<br /><br /> Another thing to keep in mind, is Jordan's propensity to pair up couples. When we get the Gholam's POV about his thoughts of not being compelled, being free to do as it will, along with the fact of female Gholams being made, I see a Shadowspawn pairing in the future.<br /><br /> It's good to be back, and see MC back as well!<br /><br /> A little more Light in the Night!<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2003-05-02 07:44:51
subject: <b>@ Light in the Night</b>
body:
You gave some good points which made me see it in a different light.<br /><br /><b> We have seen the Shadow's minions offed for screwing up. What was Barthane's transgression? Helping Fain escape. </b><br /><br />That's right. But Barthanes did even more! <br />He delievered Fain's message to Rand that he waits for him on Toman Head. Therefore he was Fain's tool in this matter (maybe also corrupted?). So Barthanes is at least a bit responsible for Rand's travel to Toman Head (and to send Rand into a trap). <br /><br />Maybe someone had no interest that Rand goes to the Toman Head and is in great danger there and was angry about Barthanes help for Fain.<br /><br />I don't know if several points speak against it, but can't it be that Lanfear killed Barthanes? <br />As Selene she traveled with Rand not long before he arrives Cairhien. <br />At this time she still &quot;loves&quot; Rand/LTT, and maybe was angry about Barthanes sending her lover to death (we see how angry Lanfear can be in the scne at the Cairhien docks..).<br /><br />Indeed Lanfear appears at the end in Falme and says an intereting sentence to Min: &quot;Ishamael thinks he controls everything, but I do.&quot; (TGH, ch.48, pg.671)<br /><br />And a little hint in WH, ch.35, we see that Cyndane has no problems to kill a man by taking off his head...    <br /><br /><i> Who has had someone hunting Fain since TGH as a renegade?<br /><br />Ishamael. </i><br /><br />Hmm, I really doubt that Ishamael hunts Fain since TGH (later in TSR he does). <br />On the contrary I believe Ishamael was the person who ordered to free Fain from the prison (maybe Liandrin did it). <br />If that's the case he had no real reasons to be angry about Barthanes becuase it was Ishy's plan that Rand follows Fain.<br /><br /><br /><b> Not in my opinion. The method of the murder suggests a Gholam to me, although Ishy might have done it himself to make an example. </b><br /><br />Every Forsaken, of course also Lanfear.<br />But as I said above it was probably Ishy's plan that Rand follows Fain.<br />The more I think about it the more it makes sense that Lanfear killed Barthanes.<br /><br /><br /><b> Ishy has been in and out continuously since the sealing of the Bore. I think it is highly likely that he may have located many stasis boxes over that time, and may very well have a gholam of his own to command. </b><br /><br />But where is the second Gholam now? Why don't we hear from this gholam's victims? Why doesn't Moridin send him to do something after Fel's death or thinks about his best weapon?<br /><br /><b> Even though Ishy was dead at the time of Fel's murder, I believe that he had more reason than anyone to have him killed. Ishy is the only one of the Forsaken to really know the DO's full plans, and thus would know that Fel was a true danger with the knowledge he had to give Rand. <br />Just because we didn't see Moridin until later, is not indicative of when he was actually resurrected. When Moggy first sees him, his eyes are already showing the saa, an obvious sign of much use of the One Power. And being the DO's champion would assure him of a quick comeback in a good body. </b><br /><br />Probably right.<br /><br /><b> Another thing to keep in mind, is Jordan's propensity to pair up couples. When we get the Gholam's POV about his thoughts of not being compelled, being free to do as it will, along with the fact of female Gholams being made, I see a Shadowspawn pairing in the future. </b><br /><br />Well, I think one Gholam in Randland is really enough for the story. But maybe...<br /><br />Anyway, though I'm still confused who ordered Fel's death and why, I'm quite certain that Lanfear killed Barthanes.<br /><br />Maybe I or someone else can find some more hints which support it.


created: 2003-05-02 12:00:25
subject: <b>Lanfear could be a suspect...</b>
body:
But for some reason, I have never seen her as a really brutal, ruthless, gory kind of Forsaken.<br /><br />I know she took that guys head off, but that is cause she was in a hurry.<br /><br />Another question to ask is this:  Why would someone make an example of Barthanes?<br /><br />Why would they mutilate him in that gory fashion and leave his head hanging on a pike?<br /><br />Gholam seems to be the most logical explanation from what we know at this point. <br /><br />I think I agree more with Light in the Night, that it was Ishamael.<br /><br />Ishamael had more motive to kill Barthanes, and to kill him in a brutal way.<br /><br />This is because Ishy was miffed about Fain double-crossing him.  Also, to Ishy, it would have appeared very strongly that Barthanes was working with Ishy.  The most obvious reason is because Fain went through his waygate without a hitch.  Plus, Ishy might not have known completely of Fain's powers of persuasion at this point, and he might have been especially miffed at Barthanes cause he thought he would have shifted allegiance too readily.<br /><br />The other reason is, of course, the message delivered to Rand.<br /><br />I am gearing more towards Ishamael.  Perhaps it was Ishamael doing the hit himself.  Perhaps it was the gholam, but those are still my best bets.<br /><br />If any of you guys see RJ anytime soon, ask him this question.  I think he might answer it.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ADA- AlannaDawn Anonymous-- helping wotmaniacs recovering from their AlanndaDawn Addictions in a dynamic new 12-step program.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-05-02 17:50:52
subject: <b>As always, I love your theories Matrimony!</b>
body:
I think the similarites between Fel's and Barthanes attacks provide conclusive evidence that it was a Gholam.  <br /><br />I, too, was wondering what the means for killing Barthanes was.  After reading LitN's explanation, Ishmael makes the most sense.  Even if he were yet to be resurrected, he could've left orders with the Gholem, I guess.<br /><br />Anyway, nice theory <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Miss you Kory.<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /> Trigger  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> Tehanu's honourary Aussie <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />  Taimandred still LIVES... as a proxy<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> Lanfear killed Asmo <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />Aliena's | &gt;  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /> <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-05-05 15:21:24
subject: <b>seeing evidence of gholams</b>
body:
Pardon this newbie <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/blush.gif" border="0" /> but I noticed that a few responders to this theory mentioned that if a gholam was involved, there should be victims found left and right in Cairhien.  What if the gholam came in, did its job (killing Barthanes, or Fel), and left in fairly short order?  Then it wouldn't need to hang around the city getting hungry.  I thought gholams were fairly mission-based creatures -- they're &quot;bound&quot; to do their job, and after that they basically have to return to their master or Shayol Ghul or some such, right?  The gholam hanging around Ebou Dar, however, had plenty of cause to hang around and get hungry, because he hadn't manage to successfully complete his mission.<br /><br />-anaria-<br />


created: 2003-05-05 22:09:21
subject: <b>Thought provoking Matrimony.....</b>
body:
...as always.<br /><br />Don't have a lot of time, but I will suggest that their is only one Gholam.  When Sammuel hears of Mat's presence in Ebou Dar ( memories foggy here) while speaking with Carridon, he mentions he has a way to deal with him.  Reading further we find out that Sammy sicks the Gholam on Mat.  I always believed that Sammy brought the Gholam via Gateway to Ebou Dar.  <br /><br />I'll return later with something more, when I have more time.  <br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2003-05-05 23:10:39
subject: <b>This is true Columbo....</b>
body:
And we have also established that the gholam can travel by gateway, since Mat can with his foxhead.<br /><br />But the only problem we had is if there is only one gholam, this means that Sammael ordered the hit on Fel.<br /><br />I am not saying that it is not possible, but it just doesn't seem that Sammael would be the most likely person to order that hit.<br /><br />The most logical would be Ishamael, or perhaps Demandred.<br /><br />But I never saw Sammael doing that, cause he always presented himself as a very 1-dimensional kind of person, not into philosophy and stuff.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ADA- AlannaDawn Anonymous-- helping wotmaniacs recovering from their AlanndaDawn Addictions in a dynamic new 12-step program.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-05-06 14:28:16
subject: <b>Well...</b>
body:
maybe the DO gave Sammael the order to send the Gholam for Fel's death. Semirhage was ordered to send Trollocs to the Stone of Tear, I think. <br />Do we know if Sammael was at SG before the killing, or if SH could have visited and ordered him?


created: 2003-06-30 22:26:27
subject: <b>the fat guy</b>
body:
In the theory you said murder wasn't Lanfear's style yet didn't she turn the fat trader (I can't remember his name) inside out in the waste when she was disguised as the grossly fat woman (again who's name I can't remember)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Shad40 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br />To spit in Sightblinder's eye etc. etc.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /> Mat's Oosquai drinking partner <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angry.gif" border="0" /> Protector of Princess Aleena <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angry.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> Haiku writer<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br />And all round WoT Lover.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-08 00:56:35
subject: <b>?Why are you ruling out Ishamael as the one giving orders?</b>
body:
Okay, I'm new here, but I'm rereading the series and am right now in the CoS, and just read about the watcher (who is watching Sam and Gren meet with Sevanna).  The watcher has the black stuff floating in his eyes, and I think that's from using the TP - something that we know Ish does as a habit, so I'm thinking that he must be Ish reborn and I'm pretty sure that Moridin is Ish reborn, so I'm making a connection between Moridin and this watcher guy.  Now this scene takes place right around the same time that Fel has been killed, so the point I'm making is couldn't we suppose that Ishamael gave the orders for both deaths?  Lot's of supposition, but that's my opinion. Thanks.


created: 2004-08-07 23:05:58
subject: <b>The Great Hunt</b>
body:
Interesting though it may be to connect to murders of similar style in the same location, isn't two murders of near identical style in the same book better ?<br /><br />&quot; On either side of the still-burning lamp, as if to make a centerpiece, sat the heads of the guards in two pools of blood. Their eyes stared at him, wide with fear, and their mouths gaped in a last scream no one could hear. ( ... ) Bloody lumps of flesh lay scattered through the straw... &quot;<br /><br />This is the scene when Rand enters the dungeons at Fal Dara after the Trolloc raid. And the main thing I wanted to point out is that they both had a centerpiece. ( the heads, with lantern or the pike )<br /><br />I'd say that Fain, after getting to Falme, was waiting for Rand, but since they were stuck reliving lives for a season, he began to think that Barthanes betrayed him and didn't give the message, and went back through the Waygates to teach him better.<br /><br />Of course, this is totally impossible, because we learn of Barthanes' death in chapter 34 &quot; The Wheel Weaves &quot;, the same chapter where Fain gets to Falme and before Rand &amp; co. reach Stedding Tsofu. Still, I hope it gave some ideas to some of you.<br /><br />Of course, if Ingtar is the one to have done the slaughter in Fal Dara, he could have done the one in Barthanes' manor as well, seen how he had been invited. But I don't believe he did it, or I would have changed my Favorite Character <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>War must be, while we defend our lives against a destroyer who would devour all; but I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend</i><br />~Faramir</font><p></p>


created: 2003-04-25 11:08:10
subject: <b>Well...</b>
body:
aren't these both proofs absolutly common knowledge? <br /><br />If not, good to have someone pointed it out. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />


created: 2003-04-25 11:16:09
subject: <b>Oh I forgot...</b>
body:
the third proof is that Moiraine says one time to the girls, she probably knows her coming husband (Thom?) better than they, or something like that. <br />I think she learned that either from Min or from the Finn. <br /><br />And the fourth is that Min says all her viewings were correct except the one about Moiraine. But we know Min is always correct and so Moiraine <i> will </i> return. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br />


created: 2003-04-25 12:16:16
subject: <b>problem</b>
body:
Moiraine could have said they will meet again if she BELIEVED they would meet again. Giant loophole. Belief doesn't imply fact, yet an AS can say something she thinks is true, ergo bypassing the oath. <br /><br />Of course, I think that Moiraine will return, but you used an unreliable piece of evidence.


created: 2003-04-25 12:20:19
subject: <b>Though I think she will...I hope she won't</b>
body:
Not because I don't like her, I do.  I'm the weirdo that likes all the WOT women.  Yes there strong and stubborn but that gives them character, I mean come on do we really want yet another fantasy book with one dimensional women that exist only to be saved by men?  <br /><br />The reason I hope she doesn't come back is that it would be a refreshing change for a main character to die so early in the series, bypassing the hero shield that seems to be all the rave now in movies and books.  That not withstanding all the evidence does point to her returning.


created: 2003-04-25 12:21:50
subject: <b>works for me</b>
body:
see title<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> foolish_gaidan <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />There must be a reason for a name like this <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />One ring to rule them all, one ring to find them<br />One ring to rule them all and in the darkness bind them<br /><br />And that belongs to Me <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/crazy.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-04-25 12:25:07
subject: <b>all too common</b>
body:
I think we have seen this evidence before.  The only reason this was put in there was due to the lack of theory posting in the last week.  Come on, I summitted a theory that was less common then this and had better evidence.  I agree with it but EVERYBODY knows these things and the author even forgot the other half of the evidence.  The one about how she knows her future husband better than the girls know theirs and there is at least one more piece but I can't remember it right now.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Front Man for the MH club</font><p></p>


created: 2003-04-25 12:56:15
subject: <b>Re: Cougar10's comments</b>
body:
<i>&quot;The only reason this was put in there was due to the lack of theory posting in the last week.&quot;</i><br /><br />Actually, no, that's not the reason that this one was posted. It was posted because it was concise, well-cited, required very little spelling/grammatical editing on the admin's part and makes a (very-nearly) air-tight arguement.<br />Admittedly, the person who commented that Moiraine might just _believe_ that she and Thom would meet again makes a valid rebuttal.<br /><br /><i>&quot;Come on, I summitted a theory that was less common then this and had better evidence.&quot;</i><br /><br />If this is the case, please noteboard a copy of that theory to me, and I'll either see that it's posted or explain to you why the admin who deleted it did so (it actually wasn't me, so I don't know why it was axed). <br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Lauriana Sedai<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><font color="blud">The Blonde Domani</font><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><b>Bonded to Crazy ol Lews Therin</b><br /><font color="blue"><i><b>God is a comedian playing to an audience too afraid to laugh. -Voltaire</b></i></font><br /><font color="blut">No man in his heart is quite so cynical as a well-bred woman.</font></font><p></p>


created: 2003-04-25 14:13:06
subject: <b>Liked it</b>
body:
While it was like several posts I had read, it had it all laid out very logically and was easier to read than some theories out there.


created: 2003-04-25 15:33:17
subject: <b>The counterargument</b>
body:
Why would Moiraine have given Rand the letter for Thom if she was absolutely positive she would meet him again in the future.  It seems unnecessary to me.  You have to think she went through the ring in Rhuidean that showed her all the possibilities of her life.  It would be easy for her to believe stuff that could happen from that.  <br /><br />In anycase, I do agree that she'll come back.  But still, it's not 100% set in stone.<br /><br />


created: 2003-04-25 18:38:09
subject: <b>Moiraine will NOT be rescued</b>
body:
I can't explain the Thom Merrilin dream, but I believe that Moiraine will either a)rescue herself somehow, or b)she died of starvation and will be coming back from the dead. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/frown.gif" border="0" />


created: 2003-04-25 21:16:37
subject: <b>Re: the Counterargument</b>
body:
Remember in FoH, when Moiraine looks at the ter'angreal where she learned of her confrontation with Lanfear, she thought, &quot;A spoonful of hope, and a cupful of dispair,&quot; or something to that effect, when she was contemplating exactly how much hope the rings had given her.  Now she could be talking about her chances of stopping Lanfear, but her letter to Rand reveals that she saw three paths, and implies that her actions determined which future she was to follow.  Also she went in planning for success.  If she really thought her odds of success were so slim, why go handing out letters and dressing up, and acting nice to people as is you're about to die?  Plainly she knew it would be her choice how things would turn out, and intended to sacrifice herself.  Moiraine's spoonful of hope was for her own survival.  Remember Min says that Rand will almost certainly fail without Moiraine (we assume it's her in that viewing anyway), so maybe Moiraine saw that she'd have to fight Lanfear, get herself stilled (explaining Lan's bond breaking), come back and save Rand's butt again.  If she was simply talking about her chances for success against Lanfear, she had no reason to dispair, since in Cairhien, she was acting as if it was all in the bag.  She seems to have survived in both the bad alternate futures, so preparing for her death is preparing for success.  Moiraine would be more the sort to lay in safeguards against failure.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


created: 2003-04-25 21:22:59
subject: <b>My Defense- <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /></b>
body:
Some people made some interesting rebuttals to the theory- so here's my response to them-<br /><br /><b>aren't these both proofs absolutly common knowledge?</b><br /><br />Probably- but no one has ever bothered to submit it I guess. <br /><br /> <b>the third proof is that Moiraine says one time to the girls, she probably knows her coming husband (Thom?) better than they, or something like that.<br />I think she learned that either from Min or from the Finn.</b><br /><br />Moiraine says that before she pays a visit to the doorway, and she then right after that said that perhaps that meant they shared a common <i>ignorance.</i> <br /><br /><b>Of course, I think that Moiraine will return, but you used an unreliable piece of evidence. Moiraine could have said they will meet again if she BELIEVED they would meet again. Giant loophole. Belief doesn't imply fact, yet an AS can say something she thinks is true, ergo bypassing the oath.</b><br /><br />It isn't totally unreliable, valid point, yes, but would she say something in that manner, in those circumstances, after  visiting the doorway, that she only merely believed?<br /><br /> <b>Why would Moiraine have given Rand the letter for Thom if she was absolutely positive she would meet him again in the future. It seems unnecessary to me. You have to think she went through the ring in Rhuidean that showed her all the possibilities of her life. It would be easy for her to believe stuff that could happen from that.</b><br /><br />She says in the letter that she was unsure what would happen from that point in time- maybe it was just so Thom would get the letter soon, or perhaps the letter said something totally different.<br /><br /><br />Looks like that's all. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> If you want to debate me on any of this stuff just NB me. <br /><br />Thanks, <br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><i><b>DARTH DRAGON</b></i> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><b><i>&quot;Truth begins as heresy.&quot;  </i></b><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-04-25 21:26:21
subject: <b>I thought</b>
body:
That this was all pretty much a forgone conclusion. I suppose some people might need this clarification...


created: 2003-04-25 23:02:14
subject: <b>Who needed convincing?</b>
body:
It is true that Moiraine only needs to believe something is true, but the reason she believed it is because the Aelfinn told her so. Now, either the Aelfinn and Min are wrong, she doesn't come back, and Rand looses, or they are right, she comes back and helps Rand win. Not a tough call.<br /><br />But how she comes back is still open.


created: 2003-04-26 02:12:23
subject: <b>The help Rand needed from Moiraine</b>
body:
I like the post that suggested that perhaps Min's viewing has already come true. Rand definitely would have failed if Moiraine hadn't gone down this specific path, but on one of the two others.<br /><br />But then, another possibility is that Moiraine was included in the group of people that makes a difference in Min's  viewing of the darkness and the lights, and that ever since Moiraine was gone, the light hasn't been winning like it used to.<br /><br />Who knows? RAFO<br /><br />Helene<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Wouldn't it have been funnier if JFK had gone to Hamburg?</font><p></p>


created: 2003-04-26 06:44:25
subject: <b>of course she will return...</b>
body:
The real question is how and from where. <br />Correct me if i'm wrong but Min has a wieving of Rand failing without Mo _after_ she went through that doorway with Lanfear??<br />Anyway, Lan's bond died when Mo fell through the doorway. That leads to the conclusion that she's either dead or stilled and trapped in Finnland. Most seem to think that she's stilled and trapped and that Thom will rescue her somehow (if that's the case, that will have to involve the Tower of Ghenjei in some way, it drives me mad just sitting out there in the middle of nowhere without no real purpose <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />). <br />If she's dead it wil be a lot trickier for Thom to rescue her. Although, keep in mind that Lanfear probably died when she fell through the doorway (but that might have to do with her channeling in Finnland, they don't like that, remember?).<br />A possibility that just came to mind is that Elayne (or someone else for that matter) creates a ter'angreal that allows passage back to the Aelfinn, making it a lot easier for Thom to rescue Mo.<br />And then there's Mat and Olver and the game Snakes and Foxes that probably has to fit in somewhere in the equation....<br /><br />This gives me a headache...<br /><br />But somehow she will come back, i just can't figure out how <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/frown.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Gawyn shouldn't have had a chance against Hammar. <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-04-26 10:16:29
subject: <b>The full reason why I don't think Moiraine will be rescued.</b>
body:
I actually originally posted this as a theory, and I thought it was better written than this one, but that was a while ago, so I'm assuming it was rejected. So here I go again:<br /><br />1)Moiraine is probably DEAD. Assuming she didn't die from falling, (landing head-first or some such), the ter'angreal exploding, from Lanfear trying to kill her, from the Foxes trying to kill, her and get's locked up, WHY DOESN'T SHE DIE FROM STARVATION?<br /><br />2)Assuming she's alive and trapped, how are Mat and Co. supposed to know she hasn't died yet? I mean, Mat said that those ppl cheat, so he'd assume they &quot;cheated&quot; with Moiraine. Besides, when was the last time since maybe LoC that Mat or Perrin  thought about Moiraine? Thom's letter contained just what Moiraine said it would, just the names of AS who gentled Owyn. <br /><br />3)Why on earth would Perrin or Birgitte talk about the ToG. I mean, ppl seem to think the conversation would look like this <br />Perrin: Hey Mat.<br />Mat: Hey Perrin.<br />So, you seen any big white towers that weren't in Tar Valon since we last met?<br />Good lord! Their conversation will be absolutely nothing like that. Also, where they're going to possibly meet soon, is nowhere near Whitebridge and the ToG. Refer to Theory: Where the heck is Malden?<br /><br />4)How is Mat going to connect the Snakes and Foxes game to the Aelfinn and Eelfinn? I mean, he's not likely to unless or Perrin or Birgitte tell him that it is a &quot;remembrance of old dealings&quot;(tSR, ch. 28, &quot;Through the Tower of Ghenjei&quot;, p. 323 hardcover) In Cot, Birgitte begins to lose her memory, so she not remember ToG anymore, and Perrin thinks Moiraine is dead b/c Rand told him so, so he wouldn't mention it either.<br /><br />5)How is Perrin supposed to know that the ToG, even with Mat's reference, is not let's say, in Seanchan? For all they know, big white towers might've been common in the AoL, and ToG might not've been the only one to survive.<br /><br />6)How do they get in? I suppose they could Travel in, but remember that Mat is a good general. In war, it is a bad idea to move in to totally unknown territory w/o even scouts, which is exactly what everyone seems to be suggesting.<br /><br />7)Once he's inside the dimension of the Aelfinn and the Eelfinn, assuming he can find his way there, how is he going to find Moiraine? I mean, assume, for the sake of argument, that the Realm is the size of their Earth(I will NOT use the &quot;R&quot; word), than TG would be fought long before the time that Moiraine would be rescued. <br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" />I know this is a really weak point, considering the books, Mat doesn't like channelers in general and AS in particular, and also nobles. Moiraine Damodred is both.<br /><br />9)Another weak point is that RJ has his hands full (I think) with this dimension. With irritating another dimension when they're(the good guys) aren't holding their own in the area where they fight, which is pretty small, then irritating the 'finns would probablt be a mistake.<br /><br />10)I don't about the Thom pulling the blue stone out of the fire, but the Mat dicing w/blood going down his face is easily explained. In the early books, Mat put his eye on a balance scale, there were numerous dreams about Mat dicing, and there was giving up half the light of the world to save the world, which I personally believe means losing an eye to save his life. The blood - well, when you pull out an eye, it's probably going to cause blood.<br /><br />IMPORTANT: I do believe that Moiraine will come back, allowing Min's viewings to take place. IMHO, the most likely scenario is that she's dead from starvation and somehow gets raised from the dead, but if she's trapped, you have to remember that she's an extremely dangerous, intelligent and capable woman. Not only is she one of top ten most powerful AS, she has two angreals, which I believe allows you to channel through one then channel that flow through another, allowing you to multiply your strength using both at once. IMHO, she'd escape, then while fighting a 'Finn, set him on fire and find the others looked away or some such, then find a way out through the ToG. That's all.


created: 2003-04-26 11:15:01
subject: <b>I didn't know this was theory material...</b>
body:
That said, I agree with Lauriana: short, sweet, and to the point. Moreover, correct. <br /><br />Now let's just hope it happens before book 15: Gas Station of Darkness.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2003-04-27 09:28:20
subject: <b>probably</b>
body:
Moiraine will return....probably as the DO's manucurist, but at least she will stay busy.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Is that gum? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-04-27 10:57:00
subject: <b>The Aelfinn are the snakes in the doorway inTear; Eelfinn are foxes in the Rhuidean doorway</b>
body:
Mat refers to &quot;what the Aelfinn said&quot; when he realizes who Tuon is, and the snakey people in Tear are the ones who told prophecies.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


created: 2003-04-27 15:34:58
subject: <b>Moiraines assumption...</b>
body:
I agree that one thing Moiraine possibly asked and received an answer to pertains to her knowing that she will indeed come back...but *prepares to start a fire* what if she only saw herself in other dimensions? Mirror worlds, or possibly she saw herself being respun, because as we all know that souls get 'recycled'. If she didn't ask a direct enough question then it's very likely she could have been given an answer that didn't have to do with the world she was came to Finnland from, but another one where she did indeed go back to. Now, you may say that she couldn't tell Thom (or anyone) that she would be back because in that world it wouldn't be true, but thats where the Oaths come in handy! Moiraine probably didn't know that what they told her didn't pertain to her world; hence allowing her to BELIEVE it applied to the one she came from and tell Thom she would see him again.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Folder of IroningBoards&#174;<br />Operator of Microwaves&#174;<br />Cat to the Man who rules the Universe<br /><br />&quot;`Ford, you're turning into a penguin. Stop it.'&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perplexed.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-04-28 12:33:15
subject: <b>About the dream&gt;&gt;&gt;</b>
body:
Dreams don't always come true. There is only a chance that it will. So that means Egwenes dream of Thom rescuing Moiraine will never happen.


created: 2003-04-28 22:20:55
subject: <b>Also</b>
body:
Not only that, but did anyone notice for a few books in teh glossary at the back, under Moiraine they said she was supposedly killed?<br /><br />^_~ think Gandalf, people!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">In religion and politics people's beliefs and convictions are in almost every case gotten at second-hand, and without examination.  -- Mark Twain</font><p></p>


created: 2003-04-29 03:01:32
subject: <b>I am surprised...</b>
body:
that people felt this was a bad theory. After all, it did cite some new evidence and it was written in very clear English, which definitely cannot be said of all posts. Frankly, it was a relief to me to read something I could easily understand. Perhaps some people have more original theories but what good would it do if nobody is able to decipher what they are trying to tell?


created: 2003-04-29 11:14:58
subject: <b>I agree</b>
body:
As for the possibility of Moiraine dying from starvation, it&#180;s possible that the Finn keep her alive.<br /><br />Another thing when it comes to her return is what she says to Egwene later. Something along the lines that &quot;nothing or no one can be more imortant than that&quot;. (Supporting the Dragon Reborn.) <br />I thinks she means Thom, but if it is then I assume he will have to put himself into danger to do save her.


created: 2003-04-29 20:59:01
subject: <b>*gasp*</b>
body:
what is Moiraines *gasp again*....BALCK AJAH!?!?<br /><br /><br />jk. nice theory.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I like PSO. Oh, and yeah, I hope Egwene dies. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-04-29 23:32:54
subject: <b>Re: Stone5</b>
body:
She may have just wanted something to tide Thom over, perhaps he needed that letter in some way...perhaps not unlike an influence in prophecy or something (kind of terry goodkind-ish?)...just a thought =)<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" />     Asha'Twan     <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br />To use no way as way, to have no limitations as limitiation.<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Lee Jun Fan<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-04-30 02:37:32
subject: <b>TEOTW, The Dark Along the Ways, TOR, HC, p. 568</b>
body:
While reading TEOTW again I noticed a conversation that could mean something or nothing in the Moiraine and Thom debate.<br /><br />[quote][i]Too important?[/i] Rand thought. [i]How could Moiraine know . . . ?[/i] &quot;Min? She saw something about Thom?&quot;<br /><br />&quot;She saw a great deal,&quot; Moiraine said [B]wryly[/B]. &quot;About all of you. I wish I could understand half of what she saw, but even she does not. Old barriers fail. But whether what Min does is old or new, she sees true. Your fates are bound together. Thom Merrilin's, too.&quot;[/quote]<br /><br /><br />Main Entry: wry<br />Function: adjective<br />Inflected Form(s): wry&#183;er  /'rI(-<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/leia.gif" border="0" />r/; wry&#183;est  /'rI-&amp;st/<br />Date: 1523<br />1 : having a bent or twisted shape or condition &lt;a wry smile&gt;; especially : turned abnormally to one side &lt;a wry neck&gt;<br />2 : WRONGHEADED<br />3 : cleverly and often ironically or grimly humorous<br />- wry&#183;ly  /'rI-lE/ adverb<br />- wry&#183;ness noun


created: 2003-04-30 04:25:58
subject: <b>then I WILL Stop Reading</b>
body:
Sigh, this isn't a theory, it's an FAQ entry.<br /><br />But the whole Moiraine thing is so figured out that I almost don't want RJ to bring her back, against all logic, just to confound and prove us wrong. Same with the Mat-eye thing, how can that possibly live up to all that's been written about it, and does it even seem necessary (other than justifying your theory) anyway? <br /><br />Like the Taimandred thing, if RJ had written that, we'd all have stopped reading at aCoS probably. But he spared us from that stupid idea, and we've read three books since.<br /><br />If the best upcoming scenes include Mat's eye and Moiraine, WoT shouldn't be defended from charges of &quot;losing steam&quot; or just plain &quot;sucking more and more&quot; by anyone, and will end up on millions of garbage heaps.


created: 2003-05-01 11:16:23
subject: <b>moiraine will be back</b>
body:
i dont know but moiraine will be back. this is because i think min had a vision about the only way rand can win the last battle was with the help of a dead female (sorry bout not exact quote). well as i know moiraine will be the only dead female which rand could use to fight the dark one. come on lets face it who actually believes that robert jordan will end the series that the dark will destroy the light? i cant see this happening so hence moiraine will retrn. when and how i cannoy say


created: 2003-05-02 18:01:35
subject: <b>Question.</b>
body:
What will be the motivating factor in a character rescuing Moiraine.  We may have put all of this information together, but being how no of the main characters ever talk to each other about stuff like this <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> , what will motivate who(m) to rescue Moiraine?<br /><br />What's the impetus?<br /><br />Will it be coincidence? Or another way of saying- will the characters have another reason to enter Finnland and end up rescuing Moiraine 'on the side'?<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Miss you Kory.<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /> Trigger  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> Tehanu's honourary Aussie <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />  Taimandred still LIVES... as a proxy<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> Lanfear killed Asmo <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />Aliena's | &gt;  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /> <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-05-04 01:36:55
subject: <b>On the subject of mirror worlds...</b>
body:
Does it say in any of the books that it has to be this particular dimension's Moiraine that has to help out?  What if there's one of her in another world that isn't imperitive to whatever fight's going on over there?  She could be bored, walk over to a portal stone and find herself whisked away to this world where she's not only important but downright necessary.  It's still her, just not the one trapped with the finns.<br /><br />*shrug*  I've not been around long so if this has been discussed at length already I'm sorry.  Feel free to flame.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">~~Aolani<br /><br /><br /><br />&quot;Everybody's seen the things they've seen<br />We all have to live with what we've been&quot;  <br />~-~ Bruce Cockburn, Justice<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-05-07 23:57:13
subject: <b>The Wise One's dreams as well</b>
body:
When Amys confronts a mourning Rand right after Moiraine vanished into the ter'angreal.  I don't remember the exact quote but it goes along the lines of he's a fool about this, as he is in so many other things.&quot;<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Life is a journey of sorrow and agony, the only thing keeping us going is that light at the end of the tunnel.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-05-11 03:44:11
subject: <b>The reason...</b>
body:
The reason that Moiraine gave letters to Thom and generally acted like she was marching into the clutches of death may be because she wanted people to look back upon her actions prior to, and think that she did infact die.<br /><br />    Many Aes Sedai seem to do it, among others, and I don't think that Moiraine should be an exception. If the Verin theories are to be believed, that's one. I believe Cadsuane did it, that's two. Shai'tan did it with a handful of the Forsaken (Osan'gar, Asan'gar, Moridin, Halima, etc). That's at least six so far. <br /><br />    So maybe Moiraine saw herself as being more able to protect Rand if she was not out in the open where people could plan a counterattack for her defense of Rand. If they don't know she's there, they can't anticipate her interferance, and she may be able to foil their plans more successfully.<br /><br />   Just a thought.


created: 2003-05-16 23:56:01
subject: <b>The big question is...</b>
body:
...when will Moiraine return?  We only have what, two books left.  She needs to come back now.  And on the point of people not knowing that she's still alive... has anyone thought that she could have written something about her being alive in the letter to Thom?  Maybe I'm completely off on this, but has it ever said that the only thing in the letter was the list of Aes Sedai that killed Owyn.  Anyway, there's my thought.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">egwene03</font><p></p>


created: 2003-05-31 13:07:09
subject: <b>Of course she will</b>
body:
Min`s viewing guarantees she will, whether by rescue by Thom, Mat, Olver and others is not yet known.  <br /><br />Correct me if I`m wrong, but wasn`t Moiraine`s promise to Thom was that he would survive Tanchico, not she would see him again?  The implication was there that she would, but not stated.<br /><br />In any case, she will eventually hook up with Thom. They will be a perfect match with the Game of Houses!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2003-06-19 16:51:17
subject: <b>Another bit of proof...</b>
body:
<br /> Do you remember the leter she gave to rand to give to thom, RJ never told us what it sayed. Maybe it told him where and how to save her. <br /><br /> Just a thought


created: 2003-06-28 18:21:58
subject: <b>hmmmmm......</b>
body:
although Aes Sedai cant lie they can say things if they truly belive them so Moiraine might know that Thom would survive Tarabon but she could simply belive they will meet again which would allow her to say it.


created: 2003-12-11 01:39:47
subject: <b>I'm so annoyed</b>
body:
Why won't RJ just leave her dead. Yes, she is one of my favorite characters and the only Aes Sedai I can tolerate (Egwene and crew included), but she needs to die. Not her necesarily, but a main character. Why? Becasue none have died yet and its getting on my nerves. My personaly belief is that one main character per book should kick the bucket. It makes books much more interesting to read, because when someones hanging off a cliff, they might actually die. So yea. Start killing off mains. And not Tarmon Gaiden doesn't count. It should also be mentioned that Rand will probably be the only main death for thw hole thing. Everyone else is married/engaged/found the preson they're gonna marry. Soooo yea, my rants over have fun!<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Evilest of the Evil Jawas.</font><p></p>


created: 2004-04-02 22:57:44
subject: <b>On one aspect....</b>
body:
In book six, it was explained that Lan's bond was passed to Myrelle. This can be taken split ways, either moraine knew she would die and passed the bond so that Lan won't die too, or moraine was stilled and the bond passed to myrelle which would be absurd because Lan is still fine irregardless of what Nisao or myrelle thought, same goes for dying.<br /><br />I would personally like to see Moraine come back again, cadsuane seems ruthless. But another strong point is that Lanfear did die, sooo how could moraine survive when lanfear couldn't.


created: 2004-04-28 18:38:38
subject: <b>because</b>
body:
Moraine could survive when Lanfear could not because Lanfear is an agent of the shadow. Moraine says that one of the big rules in the world of the stone doorway is not to ask questions that touch the shadow. Soooo, if you can't ask questions about the shadow, what would happen if someone that is in league with the shadow wound up there? Moraine is alive and will return soon.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sister to Nossy<br />Shot swapper with a_fan <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br />Bonded to Phil Reborn and Sidious<br />&quot;Mommies are like wizards&quot; ~ CVH <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br />The fact that I don't agree with you in no way means I didn't understand you.</font><p></p>


created: 2004-10-09 21:22:16
subject: <b>Someone has probably arleady mentioned this, but...</b>
body:
The Three Oaths leave a loophole. If an Aes Sedai believes something to be true, she can speak it without the restrictions of the First Oath. If Moiraine believed that she and Thom would meet again, she could say it. Maybe she just believed something wrong.<br /><br />But I still think she will come back, and I certainly hope so.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">If you talk to God, it's prayer. If God talks back, it's schizophrenia.<br /><br />Studded belts don't make you hardcore, honey. They just make you a safety hazard.<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-04-02 19:35:59
subject: <b>Hmmm...</b>
body:
To Alanna... I really don't think Moiraine would assure Thom the way she did if she was just believing he would survive. <br /><br />I believe Mo will survive. Even though it might seem a bit too obvious for RJ, I think it was part of the original storyline. RJ NEVER changes the storyline. He has clearly told us so in many intervues.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perplexed.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smackhead.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /> LLT <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-08-22 15:52:15
subject: <b>hmm i hope so</b>
body:
My friend and I were talking about this, he thinks she is dead for good, never to return. I disagree, but there is one problem I can't sort out. How would Moriane survive, as he said without food. I kind of laugh at such a matter of fact point. When I think about it, do we know if Finnland has the same time flow as the world or Rand? Anybody wanna help out with this, it is driving me nuts.<br />


created: 2005-09-21 01:32:48
subject: <b>Thanks for citing the most explicit and oft ignored evidence.</b>
body:
How often do we see Aes Sedai, much less Moiraine, say something flat out and unequivocally?  How sad that when one actually does, much more Moiraine herself, people ignore it, and dismiss it when reminded.  And aren't I glad I checked the FAQ and Theory Post after the TSR re-read?  I may post on WMB with a link anyway.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Warder to the unrivalled Rival.  Let the competition (such as it is) fear my wrath!<br /><br /><i>For full disclosure, subtract ~2000 from my CMB views.</i><br /><br />Love can't be coerced.<br /><br />Seek in Joel what goodness God gave me; seek the ill no more, for it and I are dead.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-04-26 19:49:57
subject: <b>First</b>
body:
I voted no, I think this is just another example of the Browns seeming disconnectedness. Besides, she took Verin away from Cadsuane, and don't you think she would've mentioned Shadowspawn in Tear to her? Also, How would they get there w/o getting spotted?


created: 2003-04-26 20:10:04
subject: <b>Well...</b>
body:
&quot;I voted no, I think this is just another example of the Browns seeming disconnectedness.&quot;<br /><br />Do we need another example?  Well, I suppose this is Robert Jordan we're talking about...<br /><br />&quot;Besides, she took Verin away from Cadsuane, and don't you think she would've mentioned Shadowspawn in Tear to her?&quot;<br /><br />She obviously thought it was important in <i>some</i> way or she wouldn't have mentioned it at all.  And from her quote, I doubt she recognized it as Shadowspawn.  And why should she have, considering there hasn't been a fully grown one in who knows how long?<br /><br />&quot;Also, How would they get there w/o getting spotted?&quot;<br /><br />I would guess they do it the same way Trollocs got Caemlyn without being spotted, probably via Travelling.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="white">|</font>&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;<img src="images/personalsmilies/747.gif" /><br />Only so evil.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-04-26 23:40:28
subject: <b>I didn't vote yes or no but...</b>
body:
I really like this theory. I always thought that scene was significant in some way. As to the posting above saying they would have mentioned it to Cadsuane, I don't agree. For one you don't mention things to Cadsuane unless you're absolutely sure. And more significantly it seems the characters in WoT never communicate vital information.<br /><br />I really want this theory to be right. I'm sick of sniffing, foot tapping and fighting between the good guys. Bring on the shadow spawn and give us some monster bashing!


created: 2003-04-27 06:01:01
subject: <b>brilliant!</b>
body:
You have put together all the clues. I allways thought, that they merely used a Brown's cypher. I still think, they use one, but your &quot;Worms&quot; theory is a very plausible one.


created: 2003-04-27 07:13:57
subject: <b>Cool theory</b>
body:
I had completely forgot these snake scene. <br />I think it's likely that the &quot;snake&quot; is shadowspawn, probably a jumara. <br /><br />If it lost its skin while a metamorphosis, in what is it tranformed now? <br />Like caterpillars and butterflies in something that can fly? <br />Maybe in Book 11 we hear from a mysterious big flying creature, then your theory is right. <br /><br />Of course we have already seen I think two times in CoT mysterious flying things, in the prologue at the BT and in the last chapter at the WT. <br />I still think that was a Seanchan scout but maybe is was a jumara flying home to the blight?<br /><br />Just some thoughts...


created: 2003-04-27 11:10:20
subject: <b>To Build on what Etzel said...</b>
body:
A new large flying creature.... what about a &lt;gasp&gt; DRAGON????<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">It's time to plant my garden.<br /><br />EntWife</font><p></p>


created: 2003-04-27 14:40:54
subject: <b>A new large flying thing?</b>
body:
It would seem that if this is a jumara, or a worm that metamorphed into something that can fly, it would be the western idea of a dragon. Raken and To'raken are pretty close too, but too small (for my taste anyway). Even if it is a western dragon I don't think that it would be called such or linked to Rand since the dragon on his banner is very eastern in design. It would be kinda crappy though if it was connected to him and was shadowspawn. Might ruin his credibility a little bit.


created: 2003-04-27 17:04:13
subject: <b>no Dragons</b>
body:
What Dragon could possibly contained in a Stasis Box?<br /><br />But another thing. Verin likes to write about flowers and such but is really writing in ciphers. One might think that those Brons talk about in a kind of code. I don't see Verin as a real expert on swamp creatures.<br />Another suspicious point is her helpless look to Cadsuane. Would she really show weakness and resignation to another AS or is this another mask?


created: 2003-04-27 17:44:55
subject: <b>The first oath</b>
body:
Nesune made a direct statement, regarding being shown a snakeskin, so unless she is not bound by the first oath, then it is a true statement, as is the statement regarding Verin's writing of a paper on the Drowned Lands, and her conviction that she saw it somewhere else.  <br /><br />Unless she is a darkfriend, then it is basically implied that she was being on the up and up (or if she is speaking in code, she is still telling the truth but it is a roundabout way of doing so).


created: 2003-04-27 19:15:40
subject: <b>A slight problem</b>
body:
Is it just me, or aren't Jumara absolutely massive. I'm thinking more like those worm thingies in dune. I don't see the shedded skin of a Jumara being mistaken for a snake skin, and I don't see Lan and Moiraine being frightened of anything the size of a normal snake, even if there is a pack of them.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;I can express more emotion than laughter, anger and let's . . .&quot;<br /><br />Shooganooga<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-04-27 20:28:07
subject: <b>the size of the skin</b>
body:
It isn't the size of a normal snake.  The skin is a &quot;large snakeskin.&quot;  And one must wonder why Nesune would have been shown this skin at all, if it wasn't for its largeness, as that seemed to be the only obvious characteristic that Nesune bothered to comment on (or that Jordan bothered to write about).<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="white">|</font>&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;<img src="images/personalsmilies/747.gif" /><br />Only so evil.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-04-28 00:05:30
subject: <b>Too speculative</b>
body:
I would say that if it is anywhere near the size of a worm, she would have said a lot more than 'large'.<br /><br />Also, look at the quote &#8220;Lord Algarin showed me the skin of a large snake he claims came from the Drowned Lands, but I&#8217;m convinced it is the same as I observed. . . .&#8221;<br /><br />Here, Nesune is straight out calling the animal a snake, and does not say &quot;...showed me the skin of an animal he claims is a large snake from the Drowned Lands&quot;. Furthermore, this is not just the opinion of someone who is ignorant, as she follows on to say that she is convinced that it is the same as she has previously observed. So she has seen them before, and still believes that they are snakes. The context of her comments makes the point that she is simply disagreeing with the likely location of the origin of the snake.<br /><br />Unless Nesune is Black, but then why give out good information simply to distract Verin? She could have babbled about anything.


created: 2003-04-28 12:48:08
subject: <b>Lots of laughs...</b>
body:
If this thing transmutates into a <b> Dragon </b>, I am going to pull a Charles Barkley and kiss a Donkey's arse on National Television.<br /><br />That is my vow.<br /><br />Thanks<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ADA- AlannaDawn Anonymous-- helping wotmaniacs recovering from their AlanndaDawn Addictions in a dynamic new 12-step program.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-04-28 18:40:31
subject: <b>humidity</b>
body:
The blight is humid remember loial complaing about it in the first book?  they wouldnt have needed to go to the drowned lands for water.  unless it needed to be submerged, I suppose.  In that cause i would plunge into the river Erinin(sp) as it is far closer<br />I really think it is just an anaconda-like snake.  but it would be cool if it were a jumara.  I agree with whoever said it.  bring on the shadowspawn.  a little less conversation and a little more action.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Mjolner <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bobbafett.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br />Somewhere, something incredible <br />is waiting to be known. <br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-04-28 22:32:09
subject: <b>Location</b>
body:
The Drowned Lands would also be a good place for Sammael to keep an army of these shadowspawn, if he had designs on taking Tear away from Rand, since Sammael had control of Illian.


created: 2003-04-29 00:25:38
subject: <b>jumara are transforming</b>
body:
the big bird-things that the senchan fly on have been described as &quot;as close to shadowspan as you can be.&quot;  it stands to reason that there were shadowspan on the senchan islands, and if they need water to transform, that inviroment would be perfect for them.  and arn't the drowned lands currently in the possesion of the senchan?<br /><br />i think the senchan are using shadowspan to ride around on.


created: 2003-04-29 22:43:15
subject: <b>Seanchan don't ride SS</b>
body:
I think it was explained that the beast of the Seanchan came from different worlds through Portal stones.  After all, Rand Loial and Hurin 'saved' Lanfear from a grolm in another world during TGH.<br />And The Drowned Lands are next to Mayene, so the Seanchan don't have possession of them yet.  Maybe Berelain and her Aes Sedai advisor know something about the DL...


created: 2003-04-30 07:51:02
subject: <b>'large snakeskin' = baby jumara</b>
body:
Beautiful theory - it is theories like this one which keep me reading them.<br /><br />Don't be confused that this 'large' snakeskin is the molting of a fully grown jumara.  <br /><br />As Sammael says to Graendal, fully grown jumaras cannot transform.  If this theory is worth a grain of salt, this statement by Sammael hints that he is nuturing baby jumaras so that they CAN transform.  <br /><br />Therefore, it is quite likely (bordering on certainty, knowing Jordan), that this 'large snakeskin' is in fact from a growing baby jumara.  <br /><br />Good one on ya!


created: 2003-05-01 11:00:02
subject: <b>Browns in general</b>
body:
From what I've noticed in reading WoT, most browns do not just talk about flowers, or animals...Most of them USE that cover to get away from other Aes Sedai, though.  I don't have any quotes on me at the minute, but I seem to remember Verin donig just that at one point, and then thinking about it in her PoV.  Judging by the fact that Cadsuane thought they were really talking about a large snake, this ploy would work perfectly...<br /><br />Another quick note, just because she mentioned a snake, or seeing a snake skin, doesn't necessarily mean that she actually saw the skin of a SNAKE.  What I mean to say is, even if she's under oath, if she considers an individual that she doesn't think highly of as a 'snake' (a term often used to describe disliked or venomous human beings), then she can still say she saw a snake.  <br /><br />So she might have been teling VErin a number of things, but I agree that this theory is extremely plausable... <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Whatever...<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> Arkon <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" />The Bringer of Torment <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> <br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" /> The Baron of Blood <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /> The Lord of Torture <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />As my Lord says, my Lord's leg is not a side of beef. <br />Thank you, my Lord, for instructing me. <br />-Nerim, to Mat Cauthon</font><p></p>


created: 2003-05-03 22:06:03
subject: <b>they havent transformed. yet!...</b>
body:
Lets just forget that its the cocoon of a transformed jumara, all that has been found is the skin, and since this skin has been seen before it would mean there are transformed jumara already about. I think we would have noticed since they are supposed to be big nasty things. <br /><br />Though that would be funny with the borderlands rather de-militrised at the moment!<br /><br />I like the post saying that its the skin of growing baby jumaras. That makes so much sense. Speculating what they will tranform into is another theory altogether I think. <br /><br />Good to see an excellent theory based on picking up small conovsations and tid-bits. Much more refeshing than Demandred is taim, Mesaana is everyone in the white tower, and other daft theories based on guess work and not much else.


created: 2003-05-10 23:48:42
subject: <b>Hmm</b>
body:
I'm new here, so maybe it was already covered, but where exactly did it say that Worms were huge? I just remember Lan and Moraine knowing that they would get worked by a pack of them and that Worms never stop once their on the trail.<br /><br />Somebody said that Moraine and Lan would not be afraid of something the size of a normal snake. There are two things of which I disagree with in that statement.<br /><br />1. It wasn't normal sized.<br /><br />I believe that it was described as very large or at least large.<br /><br />2. Yes they would.<br /><br />You wouldn't think that Moraine or Lan would be afraid of something the size of a normal man, right? I mean, Lan is the last Malkeri Battlelord and Moraine is a very powerful Aes Sedai with an angreal. However, I'm pretty sure that those two would be quite deathly afraid of a golem, and the golem that Mat fought was the size of a normal man. <br /><br />In that case, and possibly in this, it would not be the size of the worm in the fight, but the size of the fight in the worm. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />However, I do think it would be much much cooler if they were like the worms in Dune.


created: 2003-05-11 21:52:08
subject: <b>Jumara fighting abilities</b>
body:
According to Lan (or Moiraine) in EOTW, a Worm could kill a fade.  So if that is the equivalent fighting ability, they probably aren't THAT big.  But they were being chased by a pack of them before the reached the Eye.  So if they travel in groups they could be a big problem.<br /><br />Also, they were making a lot of noise on the ground, so it's unlikely that they fly, at least in the state they were in in EOTW.


created: 2003-05-11 22:34:09
subject: <b>If it IS a Jumara...</b>
body:
Right well... regarding size and all...<br /><br /><br />Let us assume for now that it is a Jumara.<br /><br />They HAVE to start out relatively small, right? The they grow? Much like snakes? It would only seem logical. So, assuming this IS the skin of a Jumara, it's likely that of a younger one going through 'Jumara Puberty', no? It is in fact quite plausible that they can no longer grow to into their final stages, as Sammael states. After all, the world they were created in is much different from this one. Also, Sammael seems to be saying that Jumara required special attention if they were to spin the caterpillary whatsits and morph. So, rather, they've been reduced to just being LARGE snakes. Thus shedding skin over and over and over, but not necessarily growing after reaching Jumara adolescence... eh?<br /><br /><br /><br />Wheatevo.


created: 2003-05-27 21:19:37
subject: <b>Verin's Museum of Natural History</b>
body:
She does have an interesting skull on display in her office, of a large reptile/lizard with very long pointy teeth - perhaps it is from a Jumara? (The Dragon Reborn, when Verin gives the Tel'aran'rhiod ring to Egwene)


created: 2003-05-30 14:14:39
subject: <b>Interesting...</b>
body:
...obviously not reaching their final state has not stopped them from breeding.<br /><br />Maybe two final-stage jumara would be too dangerous even to one another to be able to breed. Anyhow... Interesting animals.<br /><br />Now, too bad Aginor's no longer around. He'd known a jumara and why they don't reach their final stage.<br /><br />Btw, why is &quot;jumara&quot; lower-case, when Myrddraal, Gholam, Darkhound, Draghkar, Trolloc etc. are all begun with a capital?<br /><br />respectfully<br />-Heidi<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">The only way to convince me is by providing some evidence!</font><p></p>


created: 2003-05-30 14:18:08
subject: <b>Jumara</b>
body:
Jumara with a capital is the name of a month... Now this makes even less sense!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">The only way to convince me is by providing some evidence!</font><p></p>


created: 2003-06-29 11:16:01
subject: <b>Jumara is possible</b>
body:
It sounds very like Sammael`s doings.<br /><br />He found embryos in his Stasis Box and planted them in the Drowned Lands. We`ll have to RAFO.<br /><br />One question is, if it only took water for them to transform, why did they not use the lakes in Malkier?  Maybe the huge creatures in the lakes would eat them.<br /><br />Good theory.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2008-05-12 08:52:41
subject: <b>Jumara=Shapeshifters?</b>
body:
In one of Rand's few PoWs in TDR he states that he's being stalked by Shadowspawn with his friends faces on them, could this be trasformed Jumara? My guess is that a Forsaken activily needs to direct the transformation, so the Jumara knows what to look like.<br /><br />Of course what he sees migth just be weawings of T'a'r tho  I am inclined to my own thinking, it would be horrible in the extreme to wach your firends and loved ones faces on what is basicly a 20 feet long snake with tentacles that end in human hands. *shudders*


created: 2003-05-02 20:18:26
subject: <b>It would have been arse easy for Corianin....</b>
body:
to do and undo her vows on the oath rod.<br /><br />This is because she could have just accessed the rod in Tel'aran'rhiod, and then sworn the vows.  Of course, the physical effects would have lasted upon her in the waking world.<br /><br />Knowing Verin's curiosity, if she really was Corianin, I would not have put it past her to explore the Oath Rod in dreamworld.<br /><br />Good theory.  And recall Verin's angered reaction to Egwene in TDR as they went back to the tower.<br /><br />She was in a huff about how important the Oaths are to the Aes Sedai.<br /><br />Could this fervor not have something to do with her own experience?  <br /><br />Verin is very mysterious, and very important.<br /><br />I have always thought that she might be Corianin, but we have never seen enough into her persona to prove it either way.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ADA- AlannaDawn Anonymous-- helping wotmaniacs recovering from their AlanndaDawn Addictions in a dynamic new 12-step program.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-05-02 21:21:16
subject: <b>verin did not lie</b>
body:
in the great hunt chapter nine or so moriane is speaking with suian and verin about the horn and dagger,  she says to them<br /><br />we must get the horn back sisters <br /><br />now this is not a direct &quot;verin go with lord algemar&quot; but it can be interpeted that way.<br /><br />hence &quot;Moriane sent me&quot;  can be true from verin's point of veiw<br /><br />it has been updated in the verin FAQ not as an absoulte but as a quote to show the possibilty.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">patiently waiting for October 2009</font><p></p>


created: 2003-05-03 00:34:15
subject:
<b>I am almost positive that Verin has a PoV where she thinks about Corianin Nedeal being someone else.</b>

body:
I seem to remember that after Verin gives Egwene the ring in tDR she has a PoV in which she reflects how suspicious that Corianin Nedeal was.  (If I have the name right.)  Why would Verin <i>think</i> of herself as someone else?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">RabidWombat<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> Let the Lord of Rambling Thoughts rule <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> Proud owner of a 2 star rating! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /> Someone stole all my cookies <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-05-03 00:50:17
subject: <b>Verin could be bound by other oaths</b>
body:
Just because Verin has the ageless look of an Aes Sedai doesnt mean she is bound by the &quot;Three Oaths&quot;.  For all we know, she could have only sworn one of the three oaths or none of them at all.  She may have sworn a very minor simple oath on the rod, like not eating meat on a sunday.  Even a minor oath like this would give her the ageless look, but not hinder her in any real way.  Good work though.


created: 2003-05-03 02:40:28
subject: <b>No</b>
body:
So hwo do the Black Ajah get the Ageless look??<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Everything that has a begining has an end. And we wake from our dream.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-05-03 06:00:28
subject: <b>black ajah</b>
body:
the black ajah have sworn not to reveal nething bout the black ajah and u can see this in the dragon reborn or the shadow rising how elayne is questioning two of the black ajah, sorry bout exact quotes, but one was stilled and so no longer bond by any of the oaths that she took and sai the black ajah was in tachino?? while the other who was still bond couldnt say a word


created: 2003-05-03 06:25:39
subject: <b>Well...</b>
body:
I agree that Verin is bound to the Three Oaths. I found two passages (and I mean there are others) where Verin could have lied but didn't and RJ explains the reader why it is not a lie.<br /><br />The first is in PoD, prologue, pg.19, Verin tells a Wise one: '&quot;...The Car'a'carn was to be housed in the Tower until the Last Battle. His...um..mistreatment...began because of an escape attempt. But you know zhat already, of course. Never fear, though; I'm sure I will learn more&quot;. All true, if not all of the truth...'. <br />Then Verin thinks about the term &quot;mistreatment&quot; etc.<br /><br />The second passage is on pg.27, when Verin uses her compulsion. The Aes Sedai Beldeine asks what Verin does to her, and she answers:&quot; Nothing what will harm you.&quot;<br />Verin thinks: &quot;The woman might die inside the year, or in ten, as a result of this, but the weave itself would not harm her.&quot;<br /><br />These scenes with Verin's inner justifications strongly indicates that Verin is still bound to the lie Oath, and probably the others. <br /><br /><br />But she can't be Corianin. <br />As RabidWombat already said, Verin thinks of Corianin in her PoV in TDR, ch.21. <br /><br /><br />And to the Black Ajah, they replace the Three Oaths, probably to stay ageless as Galina thinks (ACoS, ch.40, pg.697): &quot;She had been broken free of the Three Oaths on joining the Black Ajah, replacing them with a new trinity, but at the moment she truly believed she would keep her word, if it brought rescue.&quot;<br /><br />An interesting question (not answered yet), is what are these Three Black Oaths? We can only speculate...


created: 2003-05-03 21:32:21
subject: <b>Verin HAS broken the three Oaths</b>
body:
In the fight for Edmonds Field, Verin made those rocks to explode on the Trollocs. It states quite plainly that she altered the rocks so that they would explode when they hit, rather than directly exploding the Trollocs. This is clearly making a weapon (think of a bomb) that could be used against humans (it nearly was against the Children). Therefore, she broke the Oath to never make a weapon with the One Power (which prevents you from making weapons even if you think they will only be used against Shadowspawn). In combination with all the &quot;semi-evidence&quot; that she has lied, this is conclusive. (Or did RJ stuff up - why else would Verin break this Oath in front of villagers that could talk - especially the girls she takes to the White Tower, and another Aes Sedi?).<br /><br />But the odds are that she has taken some Oaths (or is using an inverted weave to change her appearance). I don't think she's Black (I'd be dissapointed in RJ if that is all Verin's mystery comes to), but maybe she undid all the Oaths, and then said something like, &quot;I vow that I will do anything it takes to aid the Dragon Reborn to defeat the Dark One&quot;, or something like that (Lightfriend?).


created: 2003-05-04 12:18:47
subject: <b>Regarding the Oath Rod &quot;violation&quot;</b>
body:
Intent is the key to avoiding the Three Oaths.  If you do not intend to lie, you can say a flasehood you believe true.  Siuan made a sword and a knife out of Air the way Rand makes a sword out of Fire, but she had no intention of letting them be used, so she could still do it.  Thus, Verin could use the Power to make a weapon against Shadowspawn, and the catapult aimers could misuse it later.  If a Myrdraal is using a human shield, and Aes Sedai could destroy it even if the human was likely to get hurt as well. The Oath says &quot;...never to use the One Power as a weapon, except against Shadowspawn...&quot;  If you are killing Shadowspan, you can sink a ship containing other sisters, warders and dozens of helpless widows and orphans, as long as there is a Shadowspawn on board.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


created: 2003-05-04 12:26:57
subject: <b>The reference to the older Kinswomen swearing</b>
body:
In Winter's Heart, &quot;A Plan Succeeds,&quot; Egwene and co. are discussing the Oath Rod in T'A'R, and Nynaeve questions the effect swearing will have on the women older than a normal Oath Rod lifespan allows.  Egwene basically says, &quot;Tough $#!^; if they want to be sisters, they have to swear.&quot;<br /> <br />However, if Sammael and Semirhage's references in LoC to binding criminals (...bound, never to know her pleasures again...)and shortening their lifespans is a reference to the Oath Rod's original purpose, then one has to assume an older Kinswoman's life expectancy will be shortened from the time they swear, but they won't automatically drop dead because they're &quot;past due.&quot;<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


created: 2003-05-04 18:39:34
subject: <b>To Cannoli</b>
body:
Actually I was referring to the other Oath - to never use the One Power to make a weapon. You are correct in that Verin could use the One Power to destroy shadowspawn DIRECTLY, but the Oath directly prevents her from making a weapon for people to use, even against shadowspawn. She did not directly hurl fireball at the Trollocs, she instead modified the rocks so that they would explode, making them more powerful weapons. This is exaclty the same as making unbreakable blades from the One Power, which Aes Sedi are now prohibited from doing (which is why they are so rare) even if it is for their Warder to use against shadowspawn. Therefore, Verin DID break one of the Three Oaths.


created: 2003-05-05 03:55:04
subject: <b>NO SHE DIDN'T! READ THE LAST MSG PROPERLY!</b>
body:
Cannot make a weapon for one MAN to use against ANOTHER (another MAN), EXCEPT SHADOWSPAWN!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">My real life photo is at:<br /><br />http://groups.msn.com/ClanUL/hbiram.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&amp;PhotoID=863<br /><br />KLINGON bastards.... you've killed my SON!<br /><br />WoT: Good story... if only he knew how to tell it. Kerching.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-05-05 03:58:24
subject: <b>Sorry...i mean read THIS msg, not the last one...</b>
body:
Regarding the Oath Rod &quot;violation&quot;<br />Submitted by Cannoli    on 5/4/2003 12:18:47 PM <br /><br />this person quotes the Oath in question. Read it.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">My real life photo is at:<br /><br />http://groups.msn.com/ClanUL/hbiram.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&amp;PhotoID=863<br /><br />KLINGON bastards.... you've killed my SON!<br /><br />WoT: Good story... if only he knew how to tell it. Kerching.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-05-05 13:17:38
subject: <b>RE: Read it</b>
body:
You are combining and confusing the two oaths.  The one above says not to use the OP as a weapon, the one Adrian is talking about says not to make a weapon for one man to kill another.  that's it, that's the list.  no exceptions.  So, by making a weapon for a man that can be used to kill another man, Verin is breaking that oath.  Which is why an AS can't make a sword for her warder to kill shadowspawn with, because it can be used against another man.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Shadow Killer<br />Wolfbrother</font><p></p>


created: 2003-05-06 16:40:28
subject: <b>Verin isn't Corianin</b>
body:
I haven't had time to read all the previous comments, so I apologize if this has already been said.<br /><br />Shortly after Verin gives Egwene all of Corianin's stuff, we see a POV from her in which she thinks of Corianin as a separate entity.  She can't be Corianin.<br /><br />Also, Verin is bound not to lie.  In the prologue for PoD, when she's telling half-truths to Wise Ones, Aes Sedai, and whoever else is in the tent, in her head, she is justifying the words by amending things.  I remember one being &quot;I have felt lightheaded once or twice today, myself&quot; ... from using too much of the One Power, not from the heat.<br /><br />Just my two cents!


created: 2003-05-07 08:26:54
subject: <b>You forgot something</b>
body:
Sorry to disapoint you, but the almighty god Jordan said in an interview that Verin is old, but not more than 300 years old. Somebody asked hm and, for once, the answer was not RAFO. You can read by yourselves, its on this site, somewhere, sorry i don't really remember where.<br /><br />p.s. You'll have to excuse my english since it is not my first language.


created: 2003-05-11 12:17:53
subject: <b>Not that I think</b>
body:
Verin is in fact Corianin.....but she definitely does have some sort of ulterior stuff going on.<br /><br />The only thing I have to add to this topic is this.  People are pretty focused on the fact that swearing on the oath rod is the cause of the reknowned Aes Sedai agelessness.  That certainly does seem to be the case and I won't dispute it.  Nowhere, however, does it say that if you use the rod to remove those oaths that you immediately revert back to a non ageless looking state as if you had been stilled.  It would seem to me to be perfectly feasible for an Aes Sedai to swear the oaths and live out whatever length of time it takes to achieve &quot;the look&quot; and then remove those oaths and still look ageless.<br /><br />I don't know as this possibility will ever be the focus of anything important in the storyline...but I haven't seen any evidence to dispute it.  The fact that Verin thinks of Corianin in the 3rd person leads me to believe that they are in fact different people.....but other than that it would be possible.


created: 2003-05-12 00:28:57
subject: <b>Goaswerfraiejen has a very good point</b>
body:
Now that could very well be true.  Or, she was a student of a student of Coriannin.  Hmm . . . Perhaps Coriannin was the last of the Lightfriends (maybe they were all Dreamers) and decided to pass on a very special, very unauthorized mission to watch for the Dragon.  Who knows? I'm on thin ice here, but it feels right.


created: 2003-05-12 09:41:49
subject: <b>Just a thought</b>
body:
But .... time doesn't work normally in TAR, right?  Perhaps Corianin/Verin stayed there for a while.  Maybe even -trapped- there.<br /><br />Or in a parallel world, a la the Portal Stones.<br /><br />*shrug*


created: 2003-05-12 11:55:38
subject: <b>Agelessness and Oath Removal</b>
body:
I can't for the life of me remember if there is any sort of dramatic change when the Tower BA Hunters and Talene remove and reswear the Oaths.  We know that stilling breaks the Oaths and removes the agelessness, but <i>removing</i> the Oaths may not have any physical effect on the Aes Sedai.  Does anyone remember a change in the appearance of Seaine, Pevara, Yukiri, and the rest?  <br /><br />Unfortunately, no matter what removing Oaths may do, Verin still has to be bound against lying.  Or at least, she usually behaves as if she is (PoD Prologue and all her justification for half-truths).  But it's an interesting question, at the very least!


created: 2003-05-12 20:58:27
subject: <b>Of course she behaves like she can't lie...</b>
body:
...if she didn't constantly behave like she couldn't lie, she'd be caught out by the other Aes Sedi. Even known Black Ajah (known by us, not others) don't go around lying - they would only lie when they absolutely have to, and no one else could find out (which is why the small lies we find for various characters are more likely to be a slip-up of RJs). So if she is trying to not lie, she probably starts to think like that.<br /><br />Besides, we still have direct evidence that she broke the Oath not to make weapons with the One Power.


created: 2003-05-13 08:54:40
subject: <b>Sorry Adrian, but it doesn't make any sense</b>
body:
Are you suggesting Alanna is a Black Sister too?<br />Surely, if the whole turning-rocks-to bombs was corrupt, then Alanna would recognise it.<br />Busted!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="orange"><i>She bit the bowl clean off the spoon<br />http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8uozGujfdS0&amp;feature=related</i> <br /></font><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-05-14 01:17:34
subject: <b>blah</b>
body:
You all totally discount Time Travel and Verin being Mat's Daughter. Verin once said, &quot;like my father used to say, 'time to toss the dice'&quot;. This obviously means that Verin is Mat's Daughter. Mat survives the last battle, or at least knocks up Tuon before he dies (because my bet is on Mat dying in the Last Battle, poor Mat), Tuon gives birth to Verin, she grows up, and then via some deal with the Finns, or her mysterious understandings of the portal stones (she does know more then she eludes to no?), she travels back in time to fulfill her destiny she learned of in TAR, ergo, the Verin we read about in present time as far as the books are concerned. It's so obvious it smacks me in the face and asks me &quot;whose your daddy now?&quot;.<br /><br />Yes, it's late and I should quit drinking and go to bed... How come I never post here anymore?<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Why on earth would anybody want to kidnap a groundhog?&quot;<br /><br />&quot;I can think of a few reasons, the pervert!&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2003-05-14 08:21:18
subject: <b>Rocks and Bombs</b>
body:
I may be remembering wrong, but I'm pretty sure that making bombs to throw at Trollocs isn't breaking <i>any</i> oath.  The Oath is &quot;make no weapon for one man to kill another.&quot;  Nothin' in there about Trollocs.


created: 2003-05-14 16:55:48
subject: <b>Verin has no hidden identity - Far Madding incident</b>
body:
In &quot;Winter's Heart,&quot; Verin went by an alias while she was in Far Madding, her town of birth.  From her own POV, this was because she was afraid the townspeople would remember that she had done something which they couldn't forgive.<br /><br />Cadsuane was also wary of returning to her home town of Far Madding under her own identity, but she did not hide under an alias.  So whatever Verin did was far worse.  And she did it under her own identity (as Verin) all those years ago.


created: 2003-05-14 22:45:54
subject: <b>Second Oath!</b>
body:
I'm not suggesting that either Alanna or Verin are Black sisters, I'm only sugesting that Verin is not bound by the Three Oaths.<br /><br />For those that question the oath, &quot;To make no weapon for one man to kill another&quot;, I guess you could make it sound ambiguous if you mean for no man to kill another man, however in context that is not what it means. Afterall, Aes Sedi are prohibited from making swords from the One Power to give to their Warders, even if they tell their Warders to only use them against Shadowspawn. And they do not make One Power weapons for the Borderlanders, where they would be of enormous use, and would only be used against Shadowspawn (remember the suprise everyone felt when there was a Borderlands civil dispute because &quot;Borderlanders NEVER fought against each other, they were kept too busy by the Blight&quot;. It is clearly stated in the books that the reason for the second Oath is that once made, a weapon can be used by any person, for any purpose. So even if the Aes Sedi thought they were fighting Shadow, the weapon could be used against men, and therefore is not allowed to be made. When Verin made those rocks to explode, Perrin could have used them against anyone - for example the Children that were threatening him, so it clearly breaks the second Oath.<br /><br />What does this mean? Well:<br />1) Verin is Black Ajah (and probably Alanna for watching)<br />2) Verin (and probably Alanna) is unbound by the Three Oaths for the purpose of good (eg unbound themselves and then swore to do anything to make the Dragon win - would explain many actions by both of them)<br />3) RJ stuffed up, and wasn't really thinking about the second oath when he wrote this scene (explains why the oath was fluanted in front of many people)<br />4) RJ considers swords a weapon, but not bombs (can Aes Sedi help Mat make guns from the One Power?)<br />Personally I think #3, but if RJ did it on purpose, then I'm going for #2.


created: 2003-05-15 12:15:38
subject: <b>Another Possibility</b>
body:
It could also be that Verin did not perceive making the rocks explode as making weapon but as using the OP as a weapon. She would just have to believe it herself and then she could do it. The Oaths are based on perceptions.


created: 2003-05-15 12:47:46
subject: <b>Kind of a stretch, but...</b>
body:
there are a couple possibities.<br /><br />1) Verin doesn't consider the rocks to be weapons.  The catapault is the weapon, much like a gun is a weapon, but a bullet is ammunition.  *shrug*<br /><br />2) Verin believes she can prevent the rocks from being useg against man.  Unlike a sword or knife, which can be taken anywhere by anyone, big rocks aren't terribly mobile.  Someone trying to walk off with them would be noticed, and she could use the Power to stop them from being launched against people.<br /><br />Either way, I think Verin and Alanna are both bound by the Three Oaths.


created: 2003-05-15 13:35:08
subject: <b>not exactly</b>
body:
your theory only proves that she is bound by the oath rod not by the three oaths<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I slept and dreamed that life was beauty.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" /><br />I awoke -- and found that life was duty.   <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lan.gif" border="0" /><br /> <br />Ours not to reason why <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/loial.gif" border="0" /><br />Ours but to do and die.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/uno.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />may you find a she that will bring you many cubs  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-05-16 01:21:59
subject: <b>Second Oath</b>
body:
1) Verin doesn't consider the rocks to be weapons. The catapault is the weapon, much like a gun is a weapon, but a bullet is ammunition. *shrug*<br /><br />Maybe *shrug back*. That is pretty weak on RJ's side though - could Verin make One Power butcher knives? If a rock is going to explode and kill tens of people, it is a weapon. And why don't they use these exploding rocks all the time in the Borderlands - get those Aes Sedi advisors to spend 10 minutes a day making rocks to get carted to the border, they would be fantastic stockpiles for when the forts get invaded.<br /><br />2) Verin believes she can prevent the rocks from being useg against man. Unlike a sword or knife, which can be taken anywhere by anyone, big rocks aren't terribly mobile. Someone trying to walk off with them would be noticed, and she could use the Power to stop them from being launched against people.<br /><br />I absolutely disagree with this one. Once she made a weapon, she has no control over where it goes. The rocks don't need to be mobile, Perrin could easily have used them against the Children (everyone else wanted him to). And the Oath prohibits her from making weapons, not just giving them out. Otherwise, again, an Aes Sedi could give a power-wraught sword to her Warder, and make him swear to never use it against a person.


created: 2003-05-17 20:32:52
subject: <b>a quick question</b>
body:
i know this is a question not a comment,but what is the effect of compulsion on those who have sworn the oaths can they lie or kill if compelled? and also when mog did that thing to liandrin told her to live will she live past the 300 or so years of a normal aes sedai? if so then verin could be nedal. and jordan could have meant the personality of verin is old, like nedal assumed it 300 or so years ago. just a thought if anyone can shed a little light on these questions i would greatly appreciate it


created: 2003-05-18 01:15:06
subject: <b>just a thought</b>
body:
I did not read your entire post because I am very sleepy... but I did see one major flaw in your reasoning.  You say that to get the ageless look up must be bound by the 3 oaths.. this is very wrong in that no black ajia would last very long under this idea.  The truth is you just have to be bound by &quot;an&quot; oath of the rod... not the 3 oaths.<br /><br />Thats all (sorry for the misspelling)


created: 2003-05-18 02:31:01
subject: <b>a little obvious</b>
body:
egwene is not bound by oaths but tries to live by them. and any one who calls themselves aes sedai must at least appear to follow them. because if caught in a lie they would be exposed. and verin thinking of nedal in third person could be like thinking of your childhood it is almost like it was some one else.and after 300 years of being verin nedal would seem like another person. the far madding event can be explained as follows nedal assumes name of verin get in trouble in far madding then leaves. technicly verin is a new personality so young in comparison to nedal


created: 2003-05-21 10:50:07
subject: <b>Verin=Corianin</b>
body:
I think that you are very much right in assuming that Verin is Corianin. I think that Corianin in one of her studies got either trapped in the finnlands/DreamLand/alternate reality, only to return decades later. After all, time in those other places does not flow the same way. She might have spent two days in one place and returned hundreds of years later. Just like it happened when Rand tried to use the stone while chasing after the Horn. That way her agelessness and old age would be explained.


created: 2003-05-22 21:47:20
subject:
<b>Hey Windsor, you're not completely full of crap <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /></b>

body:
There was an idea being passed around a couple of years ago that said that Verin was a daughter of Hawkvving (he was the only other one quoted as saying &quot;time to roll the dice&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />, and while I can't prove or refute that, the possibility of a type of time travel is not out of the question. after all, Verin tells Rand about the possible differences in time between the real world and the portal worlds. Perhaps Verin stayed in one of those other worlds for a time, and bypassed hundreds of years. Not likely, but something of the like Is possible. There doesn't seem to be any other explination as to how Verin knows so much about the Portal Stones.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2003-05-23 11:58:59
subject: <b>rocks and oaths....</b>
body:
Sorry if this has already been stated....<br />When Verin altered the rocks to explode, she didn't break the oath not to make a weapon for a man to kill another.<br />This is because the weapon was the catapult.  She didn't make the catapult.  Sure she altered the &quot;bullets&quot;, but the rock sitting on the ground when she altered it was not a weapon at that time.  It was a rock.  We know how Verin bends the oaths to the breaking point.  This is just another example.  Also, they weren't for one man to kill another man.  They were for men to kill shadowspawn.  There's a fine point for her to justify her actions by there as well<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /> Survivor of Historical Inquizition ... barely <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Who can say if I've been changed for the better, but because I knew you I have been changed for good -- Wicked<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-05-25 11:48:53
subject: <b>Yes, but...</b>
body:
Yes, Verin is bound by the oath rod. Otherwise she wouldn't have the looks.<br /><br />But, is she bound by the three oaths? Or has she substituted them for something? Maybe she's just bound by one oath, thus limiting the devastating effect of the rod?<br /><br />As you've said, she's smart. Why, if she had made the connection and had the opportunity to get rid of some excess bagage, would she NOT take the chance?<br /><br />respectfully<br />-Heiti<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">The only way to convince me is by providing some evidence!</font><p></p>


created: 2003-05-25 19:03:37
subject: <b>Could be the same</b>
body:
While I don't really mind one way or the other about whether Verin is Corianin or not, either is exciting for me, it is possible for Verin to be Corianin.<br /><br />As for the whole appearance issue, we've seen how easily that can be changed with a simple weave, which is inverted. Changing her appearance to both Corianin's and agelessness.<br /><br />She doesn't have to be sworn on the oath rod in order not to lie. After living how many years with Aes Sedai, even if not sworn she would not have dared to lie for fear of being caught.<br /><br />As far as breaking oaths goes when exploading stones at trollocs, you forget that Alanna was there too and since she is oath bound she would have had to object, but both of them went ahead. Since it is not physically possible to do anything against the oaths, that must have been allowed. Of course this brings into speculation that they are both black and working together, but not now.<br /><br />When you say that she couldn't have been Corianin because she gave the notes and ter'angreal to Egwene, and talked about her in the third person, that is no real reason.<br />She has lived long enough as Verin to think of herself as Verin and thus could simply be reflecting on what she considers another person a lifetime ago, also she could not call the notes her own in front of Egwene. <br />As far as actually giving the notes to Egwene goes, she could have decided that since Egwene showed signs of being a dreamer, she would have better luck with the world of dreams than she did, which Egwene did.<br /><br />Since Corianin was into the whole research and experimentation thing with weaves and ter'angreal, and if Verin, then she has lived a long time, she would know weaves that other Aes Sedai don't by virtue of that experimentation and experience. An example of this is compulsion. So she would find it easier to hide.<br /><br />So it's entirely possible that Verin is Corianin, and/or is not bound by the three oaths. I don't like it probable, but it is possible.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /> Zenithstar <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Zogone: one who complains</font><p></p>


created: 2003-05-26 22:38:37
subject: <b>Which oaths?</b>
body:
Verin has the look, so she has sworn some oath. Certainly she swore the three oaths when raised. But she easily could have removed those oaths and sworn any other she chose. I don't think she is Black, but that doesn't mean she necessarily is sworn to the three oaths. I wouldn't be surprised to learn that many of the sisters are free of the three oaths.<br /><br />Verin is certainly up to something she really does not want the other Aes Sedai to know about, and has been for a long time.


created: 2003-05-27 16:07:01
subject: <b>The three oaths:</b>
body:
According to The Owrld of RJ's WoT:<br /><br />1. To speak no word that is not true. <br />2. To make no weapon with which one man may kill another. <br />3. Never to use the One Power as a weapon except against Shadowspawn, or in the last extreme defense of her own life or that of her Warder or another Aes Sedai.<br /><br />So, what would be the problem with killing Trollocs with teh OP?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">The only way to convince me is by providing some evidence!</font><p></p>


created: 2003-05-29 07:38:59
subject: <b>Two faults in the theory!!!</b>
body:
There are two faults in the theory.<br /><br />The first one is that you read, in &quot;The Dragon Reborn&quot;, chapter 21, from Verin's POV that 'Only chance and a habit of rummaging through old papers in the library had led Verin to them (Corianin's notes about the stone ter'angreal that Verin gives Egwene). For the theory to work, she must have entirely forgotten about the notes, which is unlikely since Verin is Brown Ajah.<br /><br />The second mistake is the same mistake which I have seen many times. Verin did not lie, and neither did Moiraine. The liar was Liandrin, who told Verin that Moiraine wanted her to go with the party who were searching for the horn. Since she is BA, she is able to lie, and she had reason to separate Verin from Moiraine. In fact, it was most likely Liandrin who got the draghkar to go for Moiraine at Vandene and Adeleas' house.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Asmodean is alive and posing as Sammael!<br /><br />Sammael <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sammy.gif" border="0" /> is Sparticus.<br /><br />No, I'm Sparticus! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /> = <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />I'm Herid Fel Reborn!!!!! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shy.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-05-31 08:18:42
subject: <b>Some thoughts on Verin</b>
body:
There is no way Verin is Corianin (henceforth V and C).<br /><br />All the evidence you need is in Ch.21 of tDR. Some quotes:<br /><br />1. &quot;Corianin Nedeal had that ter'angreal in her possession for most of her life&quot;. If C = V then V has lived 473 years after C died / disappeared, presumably without the ter'angreal. You cannot even try to read into it that V has had it for 473 years, and she could be C too, because of the word &quot;had&quot;. That is an aorist tense - it is long done. If RJ wanted to leave the possibility it was in C/V's possession right up to the now when it is in Egwene's possession, he would have to use &quot;was&quot; - the imperfect allows duration of time up to the present, the aorist doesn't.<br /><br />2. V: &quot;'I tried it myself, once, some years ago.'&quot; - and she needed healing. Surely C must have tried it more than once!!! She studied umpteen ter'angreal that allowed her access to TAR, and the ring was one of the few that did not require channelling - surely safer to use if you may need to channel in TAR. And a competent dreamer could have dealt with anything in TAR before the Forsaken were loose and Luc/Isam born. An additional point: if C knew all about several ter'angreal, and V kept only the ring with her, if C=V that MUST have been the one she used regularly.<br /><br />3. &quot;Pulling the red box to her, she opened the lid all the way and frowned at what nearly filled the space.  Page upon page, covered with a precise hand, the black ink barely faded after nearly five hundred years. Corianin Nedeal's notes, everything she had learned in fifty years of studying that peculiar ter'angreal.&quot; - C studied it for 50 years, not the intervening 500 in disguise as V. Also C had a precise hand - I cannot substantiate this one, but I'm fairly sure it says somewhere that V's hand is untidy. Also in PoD Prologue, V thinks: &quot;One day she would have to write out the cipher she used in her notebooks - a lifetime's worth of them filled cupboards and chests in her rooms&quot; - if these notes were written by V for personal use in her lifetime, they would be in code. They are not, and were written 500 years ago, not recently copied out for Egwene's benefit.<br /><br />4. &quot;A secretive woman, Corianin, She had kept by far the greater part of her knowledge from everyone, trusting it only to these pages. Only chance and a habit of rummaging through old papers in the library had led Verin to them. As far as she could discover, no Aes Sedai besides herself knew of the ter'angreal; Corianin had managed to erase its existence from the records.&quot; - If they were C's notes, and V was C, why would V have to rummage in a library for them. Also in this and in previous passages, V speaks of C as a different person far too many times for coincidence. If RJ were trying to show that V could be C, he would have included at least one ambiguity.<br /><br />And aside from the evidence provided in that chapter, Verin is never seen in TAR - surely a Dreamer of C's stature would be unable to stay away?<br /><br />Since I'm writing I'd like to make a few points in connection with others' comments:<br /><br />a) It is not losing the Oaths but being stilled that takes away the ageless look. As people have pointed out, the BA do not lose the ageless look, neither is Talene mentioned as losing the ageless look when being stripped of the Oaths. Therefore Verin could have been released.<br /><br />b) When V and A turn the stones into bombs in tSR Ch.44, there is no indication what they did. They could have warded the stones against Shadowspawn, rather than turn them into general weapons. Then the second Oath would not have been broken.<br /><br />c) Incidentally the person who thinks Verin is Mat's son because of a phrase needs his head seeing to. Even if the phrase is significant, Mat has lived umpteen times in the past, and only started using that phrase after &quot;recovering&quot; memories of those past lives. In the unlikely case this phrase (which is not particularly obscure) is significant, Verin could be a daughter of one of Mat's previous lives, though it is far more likely she just knew him or someone else that used the phrase and picked it up.<br /><br />There are incidentally a few times RJ has hinted (no more than that) that V is not bound by the Oaths - he cannot do more than hint without giving the game away. Here are a couple of instances that have not been mentioned above:<br /><br />1. When Verin learns Katerine is BA (after K kills four people to escape (PoD Prologue)) she thinks: &quot;A pity she had no way to make sure Katerine met with a fatal accident.&quot; This could be because she could not do anything to harm her, but more likely because Katerine had escaped and no one knew where she was. This is an indication (no more than that, because it can be construed two ways) that V can contravene the third Oath.<br /><br />2. In WH end of Ch.25, it looks as if Verin is going to poison Cadsuane by putting into Cadsuane's tea the sleeping draft Sorilea had given her in Ch.13. This is a drug that kills if more than 3 drops are taken, and has no taste in tea. Of course it could be a completely different drug, but why need RJ bring up the sleeping draft at all if it was not to be used? This also makes it look as if V can contravene the third Oath.<br /><br />So my conclusion: Verin is not Corianin; and she may have been released from the three Oaths (whether or not she tries to maintain the form in public).


created: 2003-06-23 15:39:31
subject:
<b>To Jordanian...... <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /></b>

body:
Nicely done.<br /><br />I agree with you 100%.  I feel that most of the postulations about Verin are just, if you'll pardon the usage, &quot;flights of fancy&quot;. I have thought from the beginning that she is nothing approaching all the theories about her. The truth will be even more fantastic/satisfying than we can being to guess.<br /><br />Brad<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>you know you can't leave Wotmania. It's kinda like herpes, you can just never really get rid of it.</i><br />Kit <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /></font><p><a href="http://www.cbgxtra.com/" target="_blank">Comics Buyer's Guide XTRA</a></p><p></p>


created: 2003-06-29 18:17:48
subject: <b>Okay.</b>
body:
Regarding the explody rocks.  <br /><br />NOT a violation of the Oaths.<br /><br />The rocks were already set up in and beside the catapults to be used as weapons.  She knew they would be used against the Trollocs, exploding or not, and probably thought &quot;Hey, I'll give these a little extra kick&quot;.  The Two Rivers men wouldn't have known what she was doing, and were probably quite surprised when they exploded.<br /><br />The rocks were already weapons, to be used against Shadowspawn.  She didn't make any weapons, she just juiced the rocks up a bit.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gandalf.gif" border="0" /> A true WOTism.org original <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />LONG LIVE WOTISM PARACHAT!!!!!<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Ardente Veritate Incendite Tenebras Mundi</font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-17 03:37:16
subject: <b>Reply to Jordanian</b>
body:
1. When Verin learns Katerine is BA (after K kills four people to escape (PoD Prologue)) she thinks: &quot;A pity she had no way to make sure Katerine met with a fatal accident.&quot; This could be because she could not do anything to harm her, but more likely because Katerine had escaped and no one knew where she was. This is an indication (no more than that, because it can be construed two ways) that V can contravene the third Oath.<br /><br />2. In WH end of Ch.25, it looks as if Verin is going to poison Cadsuane by putting into Cadsuane's tea the sleeping draft Sorilea had given her in Ch.13. This is a drug that kills if more than 3 drops are taken, and has no taste in tea. Of course it could be a completely different drug, but why need RJ bring up the sleeping draft at all if it was not to be used? This also makes it look as if V can contravene the third Oath.<br /><br />The 3rd Oath says never to use the OP. #1 of your post has no indication that she is going to use the OP. #2 clearly dictates she is not going to use the OP.


created: 2003-07-24 17:37:08
subject: <b>Thank you Aliver_md</b>
body:
Yes that's perfectly true, I completely overlooked the &quot;with the OP&quot; part of the oath. So ignore the last bit of my posting. I think the main part of it (that V is not C) still stands though.


created: 2004-02-07 10:31:38
subject: <b>the oaths</b>
body:
i like this theory overall, but I have issue with the oath rod/agelessness thing.<br /><br />The Black Ajah, if everyone who was free of the oaths stopped being ageless, wouldn't it be a hell of a lot easier to find BA?<br /><br />I think the reversal  of agelessness comes not from not being oathed but from being cut of from the source.  As if Saidar acts as a cocoonal dimension, then once removed the person becomes some sort of blend of the age they were when first touched the source and an aura of maturity.<br /><br />So there are actually 3 different &quot;realms&quot;  the ageles look of Aes Sedai where the oaths do limit lifespan<br /><br />The look of old wilders, i.e., kins who are neither ageless nor age limited<br /><br />and the &quot;New Sheen&quot;  (haha) of being removed from the source.  The fact that Suiane and Lianne can channel again is circumstantial to their appearance.


created: 2004-06-25 12:28:25
subject: <b>Verin and Corianin and the Tower of Ghenjei</b>
body:
Corianin vanished through using a ter-angreal didn't she?  Couldn't she have been held in a sort of dreamworld, in a static condition so she never aged at all (like those stasis boxes the chosen have found) but hidden away in the Tower of Gehnjei (where we seem to think Morraine has ended up).  Maybe when she eventually managed to get out (hundreds of years later, having not sworn on the oaths and still looking like a novice should) she decided to recreate herself, start through the White Tower again, and seeing her previous self in the third person that way helps to remind her of what she is doing.  Possibly while being locked away for so long she was able to learn about the past, present and what could be from the aelfin and eelfin.  Being brown ajah could cover the fact she has billions of notebooks full of coded info and is always seeking more information as she goes (to give her ideas on where to go next with the information she got out of the Eelfyn Tower.)  Wasn't it Birgitte who said that it took a long time to get out of the Tower if you were awake, almost impossible if you were dreaming?  If thats the case it would explain why it took her so long (and hopefully why it doesn't take Morraine so long seeing as she went in it awake!)  <br />


created: 2004-08-26 04:59:37
subject: <b>The Three Oaths</b>
body:
Everybody is is looking at the wrong Oath, its not Oath 2 we should be looking at in the TR incident and saying she broke the oath. We should be looking at Oath 3 (Never use the OP as a weapon except against shadowspawn, or in the last extreme of defense of her own life, or that of her Warder or another Aes Sedia) If the Shadowspawn had distroyed Emond's Field then her, her warder, and Alanna(sp?) would have all died. Also they were altering the stones when they were put in the catapults so they knew exactly what they were going to kill.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">There can be only one, may it be <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/uno.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-08-16 00:34:03
subject: <b>Verin is NOT Coriannin (sp)</b>
body:
For Verin to be a fairly well known Aes Sedai, she would first have to disappear long enough so that EVERYONE forgets what she looks like.  Then she would have to somehow become a novice at 200-250 years old, OR somehow convince everyone that &quot;Oh yeah, I've been a sister for AGES, I've just been out of the tower for a long time and nobody remembers teaching me or being my friend when I was a novice or accepted.&quot;  Unless of course there was another Verin Mathwin that the &quot;new&quot; Verin killed, learned every detail about her life asn has been masquerading as for a century or so.<br /><br />Plust there's the evidence that Jordanian et.al. posted.<br /><br />She's NOT black and she is NOT someone else.  Get over it.


created: 2005-09-18 15:05:30
subject: <b>The stones for the catapults</b>
body:
I might be harassing details here, but she/they could have, for example, made such a weave that if the stone isn't shot in, say, 24 hours, it falls  apart because of internal tensions. Now a OP'd pile of sand is not a weapon for one man to kill another. It would be reasonable to assume that the rocks wouldn't be used against humans in next hours, what with a wave of trollocs pouring in.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" /> Seita <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Just because you're paranoid does <i>not</i> mean they are <i>not</i> out to get you!</font><p></p>


created: 2005-10-08 15:33:25
subject: <b>Does the second oath specifically say ONE man?</b>
body:
As quoted above:<br />1. To speak no word that is not true. <br />2. To make no weapon with which one man may kill another. <br />3. Never to use the One Power as a weapon except against Shadowspawn, or in the last extreme defense of her own life or that of her Warder or another Aes Sedai.<br /><br />After all, there is no way that ONE man can use a catapult stone to kill another.  Catapults are a crew-served weapon...<br /><br />Seriously, I don't believe she violated the second oath regardless.<br />- She altered the rocks moments before they were to be fired at shadowspawn.  No chance of them being used against men.<br />- &quot;juicing&quot; ammunition is technically a very different action from crafting a weapon.  It is a semantic argument, for sure, but the question isn't whether we accept that rationalization, but whether or not she could.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Veteran of the Butcher's Yard <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Remember Eben Hopwil <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-10-22 00:27:46
subject: <b>Intent is the key</b>
body:
When Verin and Alanna turned the rocks into bombs, the rocks were intended to be used against shadow spawn.  If the Whitecloacks had been attacking the village, she wouldn't have been able to do it because they would have been intended to be used against men.


created: 2006-09-07 16:44:29
subject: <b>Rocks As Weapons</b>
body:
That isn't the first time that sort of things happen, and it is not breaking any of the Three Oaths. She altered the rocks to explode, Moiriane did the same in Eye Of The World, she has a switch and everytime she hit a Trolloc with it, the Trolloc burst into flames, also, later on Moiraine engulfs Mat's arrow with Balefire.


created: 2006-09-08 15:35:44
subject: <b>Sry</b>
body:
Sry there was an error in my last post, I hadn't read eye of the world in a long time and went back to look at it, there is no switch or Trolloc bursting into flames


created: 2006-09-11 21:51:56
subject: <b>Moiraine + Switch again (Sry)</b>
body:
I'm sry I'm posting agian, but there is a Point that Moiraine uses a Swith in tDR, Chapter 5, Page 75.<br /><br /> Moiraine was out in the night as well, dancing her own dance amoung the Trollocs. Her only apparent weapon was a switch, but wehere she slashed a Trolloc, a linr of flame grew on its flesh.


created: 2007-10-26 10:23:51
subject: <b>Verin-not C and not unbound</b>
body:
As quoted above:<br />1. To speak no word that is not true. <br />2. To make no weapon with which one man may kill another. <br />3. Never to use the One Power as a weapon except against Shadowspawn, or in the last extreme defense of her own life or that of her Warder or another Aes Sedai<br /><br />This doesn't mean she cannot physically kill someone-she simply cannot kill them with the OP-which means she could have poisoned Caddie, and she could arrange for Katerine to meet a fatal accident.<br /><br />She also states that Corean was the last Dreamer the tower ever had  and states &quot;and from what I can make out she barely deserved the name&quot;<br />She does state that C is dead-but not from a ten'greal.  She just says that she &quot;died&quot;.<br /><br />She never lies, trutly, but stands truth on it's head, but then, so can Moiraine when she wanted to-all Aes Sedai do it


created: 2008-12-04 12:25:31
subject: <b>what if she was stilled then healed by a man</b>
body:
if verin was stilled as corianne she would have lost her oldness as suian did then she gets healed by a man and is verin, goes to the white tower and so on so forth


created: 2003-05-02 20:09:28
subject: <b>Good Work</b>
body:
I'm no expert in mythology but I do know a bit and this was put together very well. The only thing I can add is that the God Perun was known by other names in parts of Europe.<br />Pyerun in Russia, Piorun in Poland. After the rise of Chritianity in Russia he was transformed into St Elijah.In his effigy at Kiev, he appeared with a silver head and golden moustache.<br /><br />Surviving details of Perunu's worship suggest that he was originally believed to be an aid to agriculture. Rainmaking ceremonies are known to involve a chaste girl, naked and decked with flowers, dancing in a magic circle.<br /><br />There is other stuff, but I'm to lazy to type it out.<br /><br />Dedrah Sedai


created: 2003-05-03 00:21:46
subject: <b>Good job</b>
body:
Excellent theory, and you haven't offended this Hindu!  Your use of ancient mythology was very well expressed and written.  <br /><br />I agree that Rand, Mat, and Perrin play different nature roles in the WOT series.  The &quot;trinity&quot; theme seems to be a commonality in many religions, and I think Jordan has also been influenced with his characters by a variety of mythologies and religions.  It certainly keeps it interesting for the readers, and it's a good way for all of us to learn about ancient cultures and ideas. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" />


created: 2003-05-03 05:10:37
subject: <b>Woah! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /></b>
body:
I always like these theories about mythological influences  in the WoT, you learn something and it's always fun. <br />Sometimes I wonder if RJ can really be such a genius (<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" />) to put it all together in his story, or if some things are just coincidence.<br /><br />Anyway, your theory fits so perfect with the story that I also believe RJ is very influenced by all these archetypes.<br /><br />Concerning Perrin as a rebuilder, I want to add that Min saw these flowering trees and the brocken crown around Perrin. <br />I think these viewings are further hints that Perrin will become the rebuilder after TG. <br /><br />Some people connect the trees with the Song and the cleansing of the nature from the DO's influence. <br />I think they symbolize together with the Saldaea crown Perrin's family tree, him with Faile as king &amp; queen, the beginning of a new generation and rebuilder of nations.<br /><br />If my view or the view about the Song is right, in any case it supports the part of your theory that Perrin will be the rebuilder after the Last Battle.  <br /><br />Brilliant work!


created: 2003-05-03 10:53:45
subject: <b><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /></b>
body:
I'd forgotten about the flowering trees.. good point.<br /><br />Perrun, Thor, and their ilk were often worshipped in fertility rites.. and the Nym/Ogier/Daishain Aiel singing was certainly a fertility rite.  <br /><br />The broken crown in the viewing is almost certainly the Broken Crown of Saldaea.  I mean, Faile mentions it once, by mistake, and then basically tells Perrin to forget she ever said it - it's GOTTA be significant, viewing-worthy stuff.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">-slider<br /><br />Yes, Rand al'Thor. I hate you with all of my heart. I do. And I always will.<br />     -Aviendha</font><p></p>


created: 2003-05-03 11:09:40
subject: <b>Great Job!</b>
body:
I must say, this is absolutly brilliant.  I like the idea of Rand getting a rest from politics (Perhaps a manor in the country with Min and Aviendha while visiting Elayne in Andor?)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Brianne Aes Sedai, First Weaver of the Yellow Ajah<br />Bonded to Daniel Gaidin<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />High Priestess of academic theories<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" />Amyrlin Seat of the Wheel of Time Club in Oklahoma City<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /> <br />'Helluo librorum'<br />'Bene legere saecla vincere.' <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-05-03 16:55:28
subject: <b>Wohooo! Damn cool! Go Slider go!</b>
body:
Perun eh? That brings a whole new perspective on god ol` Perrin!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">You are all MAD I tell you! <br /><br />Mwahahahahahahahah! hahahhaha! hahaha....haha....ha..h....eh?<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-05-04 01:07:28
subject: <b>Good work</b>
body:
... on finding out all the mythology, although I am never really convinced at its importance. Afterall, I don't think you can look at a single fantasy series where you can't draw parallels to various gods. The old mythologies gave such influence to the fantasy genre (Tolkien's aim with the Lord of the Rings was to create a pseduo-mythology, so he simply mixed up old ones, and added a dash of his own genius), that without even thinking about it, authors seem to use all the same sterotypes. RJ has admitted to this himself, yet would he be so uncreative as to follow each sterotypical character to the obvious end? I really hope not, so I don't think predictions based on the mythological sterotype are valid or accurate. He has just used the sterotype as the base for each character, and is evolving them according to his own story. He is not just giving us a rewrite of an old story.


created: 2003-05-04 06:49:55
subject: <b>Agree with Adrian</b>
body:
I wrote a post about how it's possible to draw parallels to almost everywhere but there's at least often as much pointing the other way. Unfortunately my post and it's contents (mostly about the parallels to Norse mythology (i'm Swedish so i know something about that)) vanished somewhere in cyberspace.<br /><br />If you see it please tell it to come home or at least call me and tell me where it went <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Gawyn shouldn't have had a chance against Hammar. <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-05-04 12:01:38
subject: <b>some minor thoughts</b>
body:
well, I have always seen Indra/Thor/zeus for more fitting for Rand's character and role (protector of mankind against chaos, throwing lightning, king of the world). but, yo have a point when comparing the 3 archtypes to our heroes, and yes the wolf power and link to fertility all boil down to Perrin.<br /><br />we all know that rj mixes a lot of myths and stuff, so according to me:<br />   Rand= mix between the thunder god and the sky god<br />   Perrin= the appearance of the thunder god, with the role of the earth god<br />   mat= culture hero mixed with some trickster and war dieties (these 3 are all found in odin's character)<br /><br />for Hera ... well, sure Faile is jealous and stuff, but i think that Hera's character fits better on Lanfear.<br /><br />but the rest was excellent, slider196. <br /><br />it's always fun and intersting to read these posts.


created: 2003-05-04 12:06:32
subject: <b>What is your source for the archetypes?</b>
body:
I'm just curious, because one of my interests is this concept of cross-cultural mythological archetypes (i.e. a Great Flood, three female personifications, three fates, forthcoming apocalypse, etc.) which appear in widely separated cultures.<br />Anyone interested in other fantasy with quasi-Indian mythology in a Western context (as this theory's author contends WoT might be) should read Chris Bunch's trilogy set in Numantia (&quot;The Seer King&quot; &quot;The Demon King&quot; &quot;The Warrior King&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />, or the later books of the Black Company, by Glen Cook (&quot;Dreams of Steel&quot; and subsequent books).  The first part of that series tells about a band of mercenaries who are working for their world's equivalent of the Forsaken.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


created: 2003-05-05 15:10:17
subject: <b>my sources</b>
body:
cannoli:<br /><br />i found the first bit of etymology at behindthename.com<br /><br />i found the archetypes at fantalov.tripod.com/EMPIRE.htm<br /><br />also, some good mythological information can be found at indianmythology.com and pantheon.org.<br /><br />any other info came from google searches - honestly, all you need to do is type in keywords, something like 'wolf shepherd' or 'slav myth perun' and you'll get good sites within 10 hits.<br /><br />best of luck!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">-slider<br /><br />Yes, Rand al'Thor. I hate you with all of my heart. I do. And I always will.<br />     -Aviendha</font><p></p>


created: 2003-05-05 16:12:29
subject: <b>Adrian (in defense of myth):</b>
body:
in response:<br /><br />you say &quot;without even thinking about it, authors seem to use all the same sterotypes.&quot;  i see what you're saying. the same themes tend to resurface, the same characters emerge, and comparisons can always be drawn between great works of fantasy that may have been unintended by the authors.<br /><br />still, i really must disagree - some of the parallels are simply too striking to be ignored as coincidental, and some are just too obscure or odd to be considered stereotypical.  <br /><br />also, in saying RJ uses these ideas 'without thinking,' you must imply that he knows mythology well enough to implement it subconsciously, but not well enough to recognize it when he writes it, and also that he has not planned out his characters well enough to realize what direction they are going.  in the FAQ on wotmania, you can read where RJ says that he is never surprised by what his characters do, as he knows exactly who and what they are.<br /><br />RJ <i>does</i> make active use of ancient myth in his books.<br /><br />while i agree that it would be somewhat uncreative to merely rehash old stories, you must agree that the old myths are there.  a brawny young man carries an axe and a hammer, and talks with the wolves.  he who is chosen to lead the world pulls an ancient and magical sword from the heart of a stone.  the lord of the world weds a queen, a warrioress, and an oracle.  twelve tribes of hardy, desert-going people,live in the wasteland as a penance, and a thirteenth tribe, who is not counted among the twelve, cares for the holiest of artifacts.<br /><br />they are there, in part or in whole - the question is, for what purpose?  <br /><br />i suggest these three:<br /><br />1) Easter Eggs, for his obsessed and cultish readers, who read and re-read the books, squeezing every bit of worth out of them.<br />2) to lead us off in a blue-sky direction (he has admitted to laying false trails) because he enjoys playing with the minds of his obsessed and cultish readers.<br />3) self-satisfaction, to see how many myths he can weave together, and to flex his literary muscles.<br />4) <i>clues</i>, as to the storyline, character development, foreshadowings, etc.<br /><br />thus, you're right in that not all of this mythology stuff is truly significant.  however, some of it definitely is important.  some of the old stories <i>are</i> being retold.  some of the old myths will play out, much as they have for centuries.<br /><br />on one level, this is uncreative.  but don't be disappointed - you have to remember how a myth is made.  stories like <u>Beowulf</u>, <u>Judith</u>, Greek myths, and Arthurian legend started as tavern tales about ordinary men.  but as they spread, they merged, and grew, and eventually became epics of the supernatural, rooting themselves deep into the history of nations.<br /><br />in other words, it is not the creation of a story that makes it great, it is the <u>retelling</u>.  <br /><br />and in that light, how is that any different from what modern fantasy writers do?  how is that any less creative?  any less impressive?<br /><br />all the same, thanks for the input Adrian <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> <br />( and really, don't take this personally, i'm just tired of the random people who get on the myth theory posts and say &quot;OMG g37 4 l1f3 u r3t4rdz!!1&quot; )<br /><br />keep posting!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">-slider<br /><br />Yes, Rand al'Thor. I hate you with all of my heart. I do. And I always will.<br />     -Aviendha</font><p></p>


created: 2003-05-05 18:07:47
subject: <b>Let's not forget Fain</b>
body:
OK, so this theory is about Perrin.  I'm just writing to take issue with the often unquestioned notion that Mat is the personifcation of the mythological trickster.  Yes, Mat is a fun-loving, womanizing son of a gun, but his sense of responsibility prevents him from ever living his role to the fullest.  He wants to drink and dance and sleep around, but he doesn't because his friends (and the world) are depending on him.  This is fundamentally different from the trickster archetype.  <br /><br />The easiest parallel to draw is, of course, Loki of Norse mythology.  Loki displays a disturbing amorality, fighting for and against the Aesir at different times.  Mat lacks this inherent disloyalty.  Granted, when he &quot;gives up the light of the world&quot;, we may see some sort of betrayal on his part, but even then it will likely be done out of a sense of duty to &quot;save the world&quot;.  I think that Mat is much more akin to a Han Solo scoundrel blended with an Odin archetype.  He is the scoundrel with a good heart who goes through some serious trials to gain knowledge and powerful tools to help the world.<br /><br />Padan Fain, on the other hand, fits the trickster role in a much more intimate way.  First, as a peddler, he was able to come and go as he pleases, appearing wherever he wanted.  This is crucial to the trickster, who must have access to good and evil alike.  Next, his agenda is clearly his own.  Although he has been used by the DO, he now has a source of power independent from the light and the dark (though one wonders what will become of the evil of Aridhol).  Finally, he will also (I believe) play a pivotal role in tilting the outcome of the final battle.<br /><br />Obviously the similarities between Fain and Gollum from LOTR are quite striking (corrupted by a magic object, used by the evil dude as a bloodhound, seeking desperately for his precious, split personalities, etc.).  Here I think we see RJ revamping the trickster for use in WOT by adding some serious darkness (and power) and then taking the whole thing out for a spin.  I love the results.  Fain is one of my fave characters and I want to learn more about him and what he hopes to accomplish.<br /><br />In short, Mat is like a failed trickster too decent to really get into the role.  Fain, on the other hand, is one bad mutha.<br /><br /><br />TFK


created: 2003-05-05 18:31:21
subject: <b>tricksters indeed</b>
body:
i'd originally seen fain as too dark to be a real 'trickster.' he just conjures an image too twisted for me to really agree with a parallel to loki.<br />but he does fit the profile you put forward, far better than mat does <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> question: would you characterize gollum as a trickster as well?<br /><br />i like the idea of mat being like han solo &lt;G&gt; fits him well, the reluctant, swaggering fella who is plucked from bandithood to become a real hero. does that mean tuon is princess leia? and bayle domon c3p0? interesting consequences abound..<br /><br />fain is, indeed, a terrible foe. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bobbafett.gif" border="0" /> ?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>&quot;Those who beat their swords into plowshares will plow for those who don't.&quot; - Thomas Jefferson</i><br /><br /> PSUCOM Class of '09</font><p></p>


created: 2003-05-07 01:47:16
subject: <b>Other Myth</b>
body:
I sent a theory similar to this a while ago. It never appeared. Looking at Mat, he also follows the Greek god Hermes. He is a trickster, and the luck and gambling this is one of Hermes characteristics. He also wears a wide rimmed hat. <br />Also the Greek character Selene is a lot like Lanfear. In Greek mythology she is in love with a shepard. She is also the daughter of the night being the moon god. <br />Last the Aiel as a society mirror Athena. They dont usually marry. They carry a spear, a shield. They are great in battle. The biggest is thet height and grey eyes. Two big characteristics of Athena.


created: 2003-05-07 12:26:36
subject: <b>Hah!</b>
body:
How cool is that? It fits oh so well. *tsk tsk* RJ, you didn't modify it enough to confuse us.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br /><i>I will try. Before surrendering to dreams or death, I will try.<font color="black"></font></i></font><p></p>


created: 2003-05-12 21:25:14
subject: <b>. . . .</b>
body:
Punkbiker, that makes sense, but you've got your facts mixed up.  Why do you think the Aiel don't usually marry?  The SPEAR MAIDENS don't usually marry.  The Aiel marry all the time.  Heck, they marry more than one person usually.  If they didn't marry, *poof* no more Aiel!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">In religion and politics people's beliefs and convictions are in almost every case gotten at second-hand, and without examination.  -- Mark Twain</font><p></p>


created: 2003-05-14 01:03:58
subject: <b>Just points out</b>
body:
How good of an author RJ is. He has taken all these old myths and legends, and put characters to them. While it might give us some insight as to Perrin's future, remember, that RJ says; legend becomes myth, and even myth is long forgotten when the age that gave it birth comes again. So, interesting, yes; dead on insight to the draws that RJ uses, yes; a foretelling as to what will happen with Perrin, sadly, no. The story RJ is painting is long forgotten when we get back to our age, ergo, we don&#8217;t know too much of these old legends your telling us, they have been passed down from generation to generation, though mouth and book, but doubtless there is a truly accurate version of the people in these old &quot;real&quot; legends. (in the WOT story sense, they are the same folk after all). Nice work, it's interesting to read, we learn a little more where RJ comes up with his chars, but that&#8217;s just it, we just learn where RJ has drawn from to make his chars. It&#8217;s why even on a casual level wheel works so well, it&#8217;s all part of old school legend, he&#8217;s putting new skin on the bones of the past all for the sake of fiction and story. Great read, thanks!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Why on earth would anybody want to kidnap a groundhog?&quot;<br /><br />&quot;I can think of a few reasons, the pervert!&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2003-05-30 19:57:03
subject: <b>Almost...</b>
body:
I can see many of them fitting where you put them...but Mat is no way a gemini...he's a Saggitarius--especially since a well-known fact about Saggitarians are that they &quot;Love to drink and gamble&quot; and &quot;have to rely on their luck 'cause they have no skills of their own.&quot;<br /><br />other than that, it was very close to how I'd put it...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">When Day and Dream unite the end is near...<br />...you better be prepared.<br /><br />~Blind Guardian</font><p></p>


created: 2003-08-05 06:17:50
subject: <b>OUTSTANDING!!!</b>
body:
Slider,<br /><br />You are, without a doubt, the most thorough, insightful, and original theory poster in the &quot;Mythology&quot; section--perhaps in all sections.  Even armed only with Google (a little knowledge is a dangerous thing!), you've stitched together an entirely new analysis of the parallels between ancient myth and the Wheel of Time.  You've taken one character and unveiled him like no theory before this--aren't we all tired of hearing that Perrin MUST  be responsible for the loss of Rand's hand (whenever that happens, or IF  it happens), because Fenrir bit off Tyr's?  <br /><br />I especially admire your insight into the dual nature of Perrin.  Most readers I've theorized with automatically assume that either the protector or the destroyer is Perrin at his heart--he is just provoked to terrible actions by his circumstances.  No, he's not!  He's in denial!  You see what I mean?  I am much more in favor of your take on the character.  Your Thunder/Earth god Perrin has the aspect of divinity, yes, but I like him for the contradictory roles he must play and the threads of his life pulling him in opposite directions, as they often do real people.  He seems much more realistic than the schizophrenic Perrin who cannot decide who he really is (or who he really wants, for that matter).<br /><br />I have to disclaim this entire message post by saying that I possess no knowledge whatsoever of the myths you cited, or myth in general, beyond a few very basic Greek stories known to most.  Therefore, I write without authority of any kind.  But nevertheless, you might want to know that someone thinks your child of love and labor (entire HOURS of research you put into this baby--har) is fantastic.  It is a shining example of what the wotmania theory post could be, if only we all cared enough to back our ridiculous posts up with some hard evidence.  That said, would you consider writing more like this?  I know I am not the only reader who'd appreciate the effort.<br /><br />Cheers,<br />dragonodare<br /><br />PS-I would LOVE to know those websites you mentioned at the end of your theory.  Do you mind sharing?  Thanks.


created: 2003-08-05 06:39:19
subject: <b>Oops</b>
body:
Slider--<br />I posted without reading previous messages.  How stupid.  No, this is not a retraction of anything I wrote before.  Your theory is still well-written, incisive, and awesome in general.  Just an admission, and a big cyber smile for seeing that you've already shared your sources.<br /><br />dragonodare <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perrin.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Shouldn't the Perrin smiley have yellow eyes?


created: 2003-09-05 14:53:03
subject: <b>just saw your post, dragonodare</b>
body:
[btw - rahien din = slider196.  new name]<br /><br />thanks for the post!  i was afraid my theory had been lost in the bowels of the academic section, and all the people looking for &quot;ishy killed asmo&quot; theories would miss it.<br /><br />and you know, i WAS getting pretty tired of those ridiculous fenrir-perrin theories. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> take it easy, thanks again!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>&quot;Those who beat their swords into plowshares will plow for those who don't.&quot; - Thomas Jefferson</i><br /><br /> PSUCOM Class of '09</font><p></p>


