# w_comment

created: 2005-09-14 06:45:38
subject: <b>The DO, time, and the Gholam.</b>
body:
From the BWB:<br />&quot;What is the Wheel of Time? Imagine a great cosmic loom in the shape of a seven-spoked wheel, slowly spinning through eternity, weaving the Fabric of the universe. <b>The Wheel, put in place by the Creator, is time itself, ever turning and returning.</b> The fabric it weaves is constructed from the threads of lives and events, interlaced into a design, the Great Pattern, which is the whole of existence and reality, past, present, and future.&quot;<br /><b>&quot;The only known forces outside the Wheel and the Pattern are the Creator, who helped shape the Wheel, the One Power that drives it - as well as the plan for the Great Pattern - and the Dark One, who was imprisoned outside the Pattern by the Creator at the moment of creation.&quot;</b><br /><br />So, there's a reason the DO says he can't step outside of time; he is trapped outside the workings of the Wheel, which is time itself. He is locked in a place where time does not flow, from all appearances, or simply does not exist. <br /><br />Perhaps the monotony of existing in such a void is what drives him to enter the Pattern in the first place? He can see some of what goes on, maybe even affect it in some small ways, but he can't enter and become a part of the ongoing cycles. So in his envy, he yearns to destroy that which he cannot partake.<br /><br />As for the Gholam, the only quote I found about his ability to sense channelers is from Mat, which says: <br />&quot;In fact, they can sense the ability to channel, if they're within, say, fifty paces of you. They can feel the power in you, too.&quot; ACoS, Promises to Keep. <br />This doesn't sound like Mat knows for sure to me, more like a rough guess. If Mat's estimate is true, it would outstrip anything we have seen previously from a channeler as far as I can tell.<br /><br />RJ has been rather ambiguous about this ability with channelers throughout the series. For instance, in tEotW when Nynave sneaks up on Lan and Moiraine after their escape from Shadar Logoth, Moiraine feels Nynaeve hiding behind a tree on the outskirts of their encampment after a little time has passed. Or, when Coiren, Galina and Nesune first visit Rand in Cairhien, and Egwene is hiding behind Rand's wall of invisibility. Egwene can sense that none of the servants bearing the chests at the far end of the room can channel, and Nesune senses Egwene in her hiding place off to the side of Rand's throne.<br /><br />Other times even strong channelers don't sense the ability until they are fairly close, either. One example of this is when Cyndane and Moggy visit Graendal. Graendal doesn't sense Cyndane's powerful ability until she is standing right in front of her, and both are among the strongest of all the known female channelers!<br /><br />However, feeling someone use the OP is something entirely different. Depending on the strength of the channeler and the amount of One Power being used, determines how far away they can sense weaving. <br /><br />For instance, Rand can barely sense Sammael weave his gateway back to Illian, while Rand is waiting for just that, and he is the length of the Square of Tammuz. (Guessing maybe a half-mile?) Most agree Rand is among the strongest and seems especially talented in this area. <br /><br />So, it begs the question. Can the Gholam sense a gateway from a few miles away? Or had it sensed the Bowl being used earlier? Its POV is all in the past tense in reference to the Power usage, so it's up to individual interpretation, IMO.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2005-09-14 11:11:27
subject: <b>Maybe not now..</b>
body:
Since she used Elayne's weave in PoD, I'd have to say that this won't work.  But who's to say that Avi can't create the time traveling weave later.  Or that the one to Seanchan wasn't a time travelling weave.  <br /><br />Sorilea and the Aiel have a weave for travelling.  They showed it to Cadsuane.  This could be the time traveler as well.  <br /><br />And I agree that even though the DO says he can't travel back in time, it may be possible.  <br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">http://www.green-machine.info<br />Making Money Online</font><p></p>


created: 2005-09-14 11:40:22
subject: <b>To Alydar</b>
body:
Sorilea learned her weave from the AS that learned it from Egwene who taught it to Elayne.  In other words, they have the same weave for Travelling. Egwene  re-discovered how to do it, so every modern channeller (besides Alviarin, who was taught by Mesaana) who can Travel uses the same weave. Avi also did it once on her own, but does not remember how.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">May you be successful  in all your projects.<br /><br />I am a pastafarion.  The Flying Spaghetti Monster created the universe, and no one in Kansas can prove me wrong.<br /><br />http://www.vengaza.org</font><p></p>


created: 2005-09-14 14:49:23
subject: <b>Mat</b>
body:
I'm not sure it is save to assume that Mat is liable to break rules easily.<br /><br /><i>Lord of Chaos/A Different Dance: It was important to make rounds every day, inspect something different every day; those other men's memories told him that, and he had come to trust them about things like this. If he was stuck in this job, he might as well try to do it right.</i><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">It&#180;s sometimes really inconvienient to have a real life besides WOT.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-09-14 16:13:23
subject: <b>Light in the Night</b>
body:
&quot;What is the Wheel of Time? Imagine a great cosmic loom in the shape of a seven-spoked wheel, slowly spinning through eternity, weaving the Fabric of the universe. The Wheel, put in place by the Creator, is time itself, ever turning and returning. The fabric it weaves is constructed from the threads of lives and events, interlaced into a design, the Great Pattern, which is the whole of existence and reality, past, present, and future.&quot;<br />&quot;The only known forces outside the Wheel and the Pattern are the Creator, who helped shape the Wheel, the One Power that drives it - as well as the plan for the Great Pattern - and the Dark One, who was imprisoned outside the Pattern by the Creator at the moment of creation.&quot;<br /><br />The above statement, I believe, says exactly the opposite to what you propose. If they are beyond the Wheel and the Time then they are not subjected to the same rules. If time is merely the Wheel of Time being driven (creating distance and thus time), then the Dark One and the Creator are both above these laws. However, the Dark One says that EVEN HE cannot break the rules of time. It is therefore the universal constant, to the Dark One and the Creator.<br /><br />I just don't see the point of this Talent anyway. What would be Jordan's logic in allowing Aviendha to time travel ... and perhaps only one or two hours. If it has to do with saving Rand after he dies or something, then I don't buy it. A certain amount of common sense should also be present in our debates - and I don't see why he would portray Travelling with this added little extra. Even Aviendha is oblivious to it, and she is using the same weave as Elayne uses.<br /><br />Aviendha already has a Talent. She can read residues.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">A One Power researcher<br />Defender of Lanfear<br />Grand Ninja-Nae'blis to be feared <br />Original Warder to Isa <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br />New Warder to Nossie <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />Toy to Seriana <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/winky.gif" border="0" /><br />Mystified by a Fan <br />Bonded Phelix - I was young, it happened so fast.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-09-14 18:55:37
subject: <b>Some defenses</b>
body:
First of all let me address the angle of the sun issue. Elayne thinks it's lower. If my theory is correct, than the sun would be lower...on the front side of noon not the back side. Maginor says that it would be from a different angle. True enough, tho it would be a slight difference this close to the winter solistice. But that doesn't matter. Elayne is in a different spot! She might notice the difference in direction if she were back in Ebou Dar, but she has no reference for where the sun should be north/south where she is now. That is a completely unsupportable argument.<br />I have done a lot of deep water sailing. I've used a sextant many many times. I know for a fact that it is extremely difficult to measure by eye anything smaller than about 5-10 degrees. That amount of distance would have put them about 450 miles! east of Ebou Dar. Not possible. A few miles is a few miles, and Elayne wanted to keep the Windfinders happy by being close to their ships. No, Elayne saw what she saw. The difference in angle cannot be explained away by the distance they Travelled. For one thing they would have been within sight of Ebou Dar itself, they can see the lightening bolts of the damane channeling. <br />Mat<br />Much of the criticism of this theory rests on the fact that Mat may have ignored his own order to return to Mol Hara after an hour. I completely disagree. One person said that he would continue searching because he was devoted to Olver. Yes he's devoted I agree, but it would make much more sense if he was worried about him to return after his hour. I would want to meet up with the others to see if anyone else had found him! They don't have any other way of communicating you know. In addition, and more importantly, Mat is becoming quite responsible. In the early books I would have not been surprised if he went running around w/o thinking of the others, but not by this time. He pays attention to what he's doing now. Several times in both WH and CoT he mentions how he wishes he had his carefree days back and how he feels responsible for everybody. Even back as far as LoC he gives up the chance to hang out with a good looking young woman (Betse from the Golden Stag in Merone) to go inspect his men. I'm sure that kind of dedication would have continued in a search for Olver. I'm pretty certain that if he gave an order to be back in an hour he would have been back in an hour.<br />The Seanchan<br />There has been some comments that the Seanchan invasion took longer than I expressed. No. As Light in the Night has said, it was really quick. Mat hears the booms of the ships blowing apart well before he gets to the harbor, and troops are on the ground when he starts back. There is no time lag. <br />Someone mentioned that he thought that Mat took almost two hours coming back from the docks when he said goodby to Tylin. I just looked. No mention of time at all, only the fact that his leg ached. <br />To be truthful, the only valid argument against the 'time gateway' is that Aviendha learned the weave from Elayne. Why would hers be different? I don't know. All I know is that Aviendha must use almost all of her strength to make it work and Elayne doesn't. They are very close in strength. Where does the extra power go if the weaves are identical? I don't know. But I suspect the go into making more time.<br /><br />NaCl(they must have some function)H2O <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Any comments on my photos appreciated</font><p><a href="http://saltwater.smugmug.com/" target="_blank">My photos, a work in progress</a></p><p></p>


created: 2005-09-14 19:08:39
subject: <b>Disagree</b>
body:
It is a well thought out theory that ignores one piece of evidence:<br />&quot;The One Power had been used below, and miles to the north.  To follow, or not?  The man who had wounded it was not with them; it had made sure of that before leaving the high vantage place.&quot;<br />This is from the gholam's POV at the end of &quot;Unweaving&quot; as he watched them leave.  If they had traveled back in time the gholam would not have been able to feel the exit of the gateway at the presant time, the exit would have appeared a couple hours earlier.


created: 2005-09-14 19:54:02
subject: <b>The gholam argument against</b>
body:
Several people have mentioned that the Gholam senses both the gateway in the palace courtyard and channeling to the north. They say this must be the other end of the gateway he senses. If I am correct what he senses isn't the gateway at all but the women using the Bowl of Winds. An open gateway doesn't use a lot of power. Rand can barely sense Sammy's from which is only a few hundred meters away. Is the Gholam that much more sensitive than Rand? It's possible. But it's more likely that the Gholam sensed the much greater weaving of the Bowl of Winds which at that moment was being used by a circle of 13 women.<br /><br />NaCl(it was the Bowl of Winds he sensed)H2O <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Any comments on my photos appreciated</font><p><a href="http://saltwater.smugmug.com/" target="_blank">My photos, a work in progress</a></p><p></p>


created: 2005-09-14 20:10:21
subject: <b>To those who disagree with this theory ...</b>
body:
How do you explain the time-discrepancy situation with Avi's first gateway, to Seanchan, in TFoH (as I outlined in a previous post above)?  I'm actually quite surprised the neither LitN nor Salt mentioned the TFoH episode to support their theories.<br /><br />If there had been just one episode where this idea seemed to be exhibited, I can understand attributing it to an RJ mistake, or to us mis-interpreting the information at hand.<br /><br />But, the fact that there are two episodes that seem to support this idea makes it highly unlikely that RJ did not have something deliberately in mind with Avi's gateways and their affect on time.<br /><br />There are very specific references to time/sun angles/shadows/etc. in the TPoD episode, the most blatant being Elayne's comment about the odd position of the sun.  This is a singular event - no other character comments on the odd position of the sun at any other time in the series (as far as I recall).  So, I think we must assume that RJ showed us Elayne's thoughts for a reason.  Why, if not to lend evidence to this idea?<br /><br />And, yes, Avi apparently used a different weave (learned from Elayne) in the TPoD episode than in the TFoH episode.  But, that doesn't mean she didn't create the same (or similar) affect.  Clearly SOMETHING is odd about the way she created the gateway in the TPoD episode - RJ went to great pains to show us that.  Again, why, if not to lend evidence to this idea?<br /><br />Whether Avi's gateways go forward or backward in time is, I'll admit, not entirely clear.  But, there's no doubt in my mind that they do one or the other.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Rise and fall, turn the Wheel,<br />'cause all life is<br />Is really just a circle.&quot;<br /><br />-BHT&amp;tM</font><p></p>


created: 2005-09-14 21:15:12
subject: <b>Some thoughts</b>
body:
First of all, the argument that the Gholam would not feel the other end of the gateway is flawed. Remember - Avi was using almost all of her power to create the gateway, and this makes it different from the case mentioned above - Sammael would have used only a small fraction of his power.<br /><br />This means that, since Avi is quite strong, it is not implausible to suppose that the Gholam could feel it.<br /><br />That is not to say that it couldn't have been the BotW that it felt, but the argument of strength is not applicable.<br /><br />Another observation is that time travel is not the only available explanation for the strange gateway. One possibility is that the strangeness involves the mirror worlds - perhaps Avi's gateway behaves like the portal stones, or something similar.<br /><br />Another possibility is that she forms gateways like men do (drilling/tunnelling through the pattern), and so when she tried to make a similarity, it created a twisted gateway that alters the perception of time (much like the Ways do).<br /><br />Yet another option is that the gateway was not all that she created. It is possible that she also created an effect in the vicinity of the gateway that caused the sun's position to appear shifted (think of how water makes angles appear strange - a straight stick that is half in water will appear to change angle at the surface). Perhaps it is this that produced the strange angle of the sun.<br /><br />I actually do believe that it may have been a time-travelling gateway, although I don't think it has anything to do with 'twice dawns the day'. One problem, however, with it travelling back in time is that Nynaeve observes that the sun has barely fallen, which implies that it is falling. If the sun were lower in the sky, and it had become morning, then it would have appeared to have risen, not fallen.<br /><br />Anyway, I'm still undecided on this issue, and I guess everyone will have to wait until KoD (or maybe even book 12) comes out before this is resolved.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Asmodean is alive and posing as Sammael!<br /><br />Sammael <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sammy.gif" border="0" /> is Sparticus.<br /><br />No, I'm Sparticus! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /> = <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />I'm Herid Fel Reborn!!!!! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shy.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-09-14 22:31:57
subject: <b>Why I didn't include the gateway to Seanchan</b>
body:
Basically it's too hard to prove. There are no real common denominators. They are near <i>an</i> east coast. Not necessarily <i>the</i> east coast. If you look at a map of  Seanchan (BWB pg 156) you will see that there are several areas that have east facing coasts that could have the kind of surf described in &quot;The Far Snows&quot; there are two places mentioned but neither is on the map. Since RJ has said that Seanchan is larger than the Westlands, the Aiel Waste and Shara combined, it's got to be huge. You could successfully argue for almost any time, just on earth curvature alone. The theory is &quot;strange&quot; anyway, giving people the continent of Seanchan to argue about also would have weakened my theory I think. Besides I wanted to concentrate on the time differentials between Mat and Elayne who are virtually next to each other.<br /><br />NaCl(Seanchan is too big)H2O <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Any comments on my photos appreciated</font><p><a href="http://saltwater.smugmug.com/" target="_blank">My photos, a work in progress</a></p><p></p>


created: 2005-09-15 00:15:03
subject: <b>Maybe</b>
body:
Your first two pieces of evidence are shaky. The third one a bit less so. True, you did make some good points that could turn out to be something, but the whole package isn't working for me. You said that it took a while for the Seanchan to attack the farm. This could very well be that they wanted to secure Ebou Dar before taking surrounding countryside. Or that they only came because they felt huge amounts of saidar being woven.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I am one can short of a six-pack!!<br /><br />Of spice-beer, of course.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-09-15 02:31:53
subject: <b>Re:sidious</b>
body:
Some faiths believe that the Creator is able to see all things at once, i.e. past, present, and future. Does the Creator, in these instances, have any sense of the passing of time? Or would it all run together? I guess it all depends on how you look at it. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />And this is not to say the DO is in the same place outside the Wheel that the Creator is, either. He was placed in a prison, more than likely to keep him from being able to tamper with the Wheel and the Great Pattern (and thus time). Imagine if the Creator had allowed the DO access to work time freely. He would have innumerable do-overs until he got the results he desired. (He still does, in a sense, but the do-overs are separated by several millenia.) <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />I have my reservations about the introduction of time-travel into any story myself. It can become paradoxical all too easily. However, RJ has been very careful when dealing with this issue in the series, and has held time differences and fluctuations above suspicion and confusion. This is a very special case, IMO. Aviendha nor anyone with her suspects anything, and its use will obviously be kept to a minimum, which I think we can all appreciate. (If true) <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />To Shiska: I suggested to Peter that he bring up the issue of her first gateway, but he decided to concentrate on the latter. But it does need to be brought up in the course of discussion for this idea. (I admit I didn't see that connection when I originally wrote my theory.)<br /><br />As you pointed out, the sun was half-showing above the horizon on the east coast of Seanchan when Rand and Avi left the igloo. Upon their arrival back in Cairhien, Asmo says it is about two hours before sunrise. Considering how far it is from Cairhien to the east coast of Shara, it looks to be at least a couple time zones. To explain this phenomena, the east coast of Seanchan that Rand and Avi were on, would have to be on the same longitude as the Shara east coast.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2005-09-15 10:25:59
subject: <b>re: Light in the Night</b>
body:
Judging from the world map in the BWB (p.146), the east coast of Shara is 4-5000 miles east of Cairhien (each square on the map is ~1000 miles - i.e. about 1 time zone per square).  So, really, Rand and Avi would have to have been on the same longitude as the eastern edge of the Aiel Waste / western edge of Shara (i.e. ~2000 miles east of Cairhien) in order for the sun positions to make sense.  Clearly, that's not possible, regardless where they were in Seanchan at the time.<br /><br />The biggest reason I think the gateways open forward in time is because of what we've seen happen in TAR and with the Portal Stones.  That is, when you're in TAR or using the Portal Stones, the peceived passage of time can be different from the actual passage of time.  You can't move BACKWARD in time, but you can move FORWARD (like Rand and co. did in TGH, when they spent ~4 months travelng to Toman Head in the Portal Stones, when the perceived elapsed time was only, what, a few hours?).<br /><br />So, what I'm thinking is, perhaps Avi's gateways don't actually open into the future, but rather, when you pass through them, the perceived passage of time is (significantly) slower than the actual passage of time.  Therefore, it's later than you think when you arrive on the other side.<br /><br />This solves the problem Skeeve raised about passing through the gateway in the opposite direction.  If the gateway itself opens into the future, then Skeeve is right - those on the other side of the gateway could use it to travel back in time, which seems to defy the physics RJ has used to create the series.  But, if my speculation above is correct, then those passing through the gateway in the opposite direction would also perceive time passing slower than actual, thus arriving on the other side later than anticipated.  So, no matter which direction you pass through the gateway, you end up, essentially, in the future.  This seems consistent with the other time phenomenons we've seen in the series.<br /><br />In the TPoD episode, the gateway was only used to travel in one direction, so no evidence about my idea.  But, in the TFoH episode, Avi and Rand went through the gateway in both directions.  It's possible they lost some time going through to Seanchan, and then more time going back to the Westlands.  Re-reading that scene, I can't see any evidence that precludes this idea.<br /><br />Just a thought ...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Rise and fall, turn the Wheel,<br />'cause all life is<br />Is really just a circle.&quot;<br /><br />-BHT&amp;tM</font><p></p>


created: 2005-09-15 12:52:39
subject: <b>The driving factor</b>
body:
Sidious, what drives the wheel of time?  The One Power!  The Dark One cannot channel or use the one power, so it makes sense that he can't affect time.  But Avi and the rest can indeed touch the one power, the very power that turns the wheel.  i think it makes perfect sense that a channeler can go back in time.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perrin.gif" border="0" /> Grizzled Old Peddler <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perrin.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-09-15 13:24:26
subject: <b>About my idea above ...</b>
body:
I think the TFoH episode actually disproves it.  Consider that it was ~7:00a in Seanchan when Rand noticed the sun.  Meaning it was ~7:00p in Cairhien.  But, it was already past 7:00p in Cairhien when Avi opened the gateway to Seanchan (Rand was getting ready to go to sleep).  From that alone, it's impossible for Avi's gateway to behave as I speculated above.<br /><br />I should have thought it through better before posting - that's what I get for being hasty <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Rise and fall, turn the Wheel,<br />'cause all life is<br />Is really just a circle.&quot;<br /><br />-BHT&amp;tM</font><p></p>


created: 2005-09-15 17:25:07
subject: <b>Mil Tesin</b>
body:
Yes, thank you for that, but it doesn't mean anything. The One Power is just a source of energy, and the True Power possesses identical capabilities to the One Power - as shown by Ishamael and his weavings.<br /><br />There has never been evidence anywhere in the series that this Talent could exist, or that time travel is possible in any capacity. All we know is that the perception of time can be altered by certain Power events - but you cannot physically go back in time.<br /><br />The Dark One's own statement indicates that his potential to affect the Pattern is far beyond any channelers. Look at how he changed the weather on a global scale, and the destruction he wrought when he was in contact with the world during the War of Power. However, his inclusion of the word EVEN indicates that if he cannot do it, no body can.<br /><br />Out of all the Talents which existed, there is no evidence that this one has ever existed because it would create such logical problems for the author. In the AOL there could have been a thousand channelers with this rare Talent, and yet it was never used to reverse the taint on saidin, or any other disastrous consequences. Time and again we have seen that when disaster strikes you can either live with it, or balefire the inducing event. But balefire doesn't create an alternate reality.<br /><br />The paradoxical implications of Aviendha and that group of women travelling back in time are so great to comprehend that I won't even list them here. It also flies against the whole concept of the Pattern which is driven by the Power - and thus cannot 'reverse'.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">A One Power researcher<br />Defender of Lanfear<br />Grand Ninja-Nae'blis to be feared <br />Original Warder to Isa <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br />New Warder to Nossie <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />Toy to Seriana <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/winky.gif" border="0" /><br />Mystified by a Fan <br />Bonded Phelix - I was young, it happened so fast.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-09-15 19:38:47
subject: <b>To Sid's post above</b>
body:
It's been very interesting reading you and LitN going back and forth about the paraphysics of the DO and time. However, you are missing one major point. This is RJ's <i><b>FANTASY</b></i> world. If he choses to, he can completely ignore the &quot;paradoxical implications of Aviendha and that group of women travelling back in time&quot; He's ignored other stuff almost as big. <br />Also to dismiss a time travel talent just because it's never been seen b4 in the series is a bit on the silly side. It's like that White in the WT who dismisses the possibility of the a'dam because nobody in the Tower has ever seen two identical ter'angreals before. There can be a first time for everything. <br />I don't pretend to know what RJ has planned for Avi's talent. I don't even want to speculate. All I can say is that there seems to be significant evidence for some sort of temporal anomaly connected to the events surrounding the using of the Bowl of Winds. It could all be mistakes by RJ, but I don't think so. The clues seem too well planted for that.<br /><br />NaCl(it is a theory after all...you could be right...but I don't think so)H2O <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Any comments on my photos appreciated</font><p><a href="http://saltwater.smugmug.com/" target="_blank">My photos, a work in progress</a></p><p></p>


created: 2005-09-15 21:09:42
subject: <b>In response to Sidious</b>
body:
&quot;Yes, thank you for that, but it doesn't mean anything. The One Power is just a source of energy, and the True Power possesses identical capabilities to the One Power - as shown by Ishamael and his weavings.&quot;<br /><br />The TP is not like the OP - in fact it is fairly different, given that it is not being used to drive the wheel of time, and that it comes from the DO. The fact that it can do the same thing in most cases does not imply that it is identical. In fact, it is clearly different, given that it is not split into two parts (like saidin/saidar), and no channeller of the TP can sense another one.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br />&quot;There has never been evidence anywhere in the series that this Talent could exist, or that time travel is possible in any capacity. All we know is that the perception of time can be altered by certain Power events - but you cannot physically go back in time.<br /><br />The Dark One's own statement indicates that his potential to affect the Pattern is far beyond any channelers. Look at how he changed the weather on a global scale, and the destruction he wrought when he was in contact with the world during the War of Power. However, his inclusion of the word EVEN indicates that if he cannot do it, no body can.<br /><br />Out of all the Talents which existed, there is no evidence that this one has ever existed because it would create such logical problems for the author. In the AOL there could have been a thousand channelers with this rare Talent, and yet it was never used to reverse the taint on saidin, or any other disastrous consequences. Time and again we have seen that when disaster strikes you can either live with it, or balefire the inducing event. But balefire doesn't create an alternate reality.&quot;<br /><br />There were no wolfbrothers in the AoL, either, but that doesn't mean that there aren't now (in fact we know there are). Similarly with sniffers and also Min's talent (is there a name for it, yet?). It has been stated quite clearly on a number of occasions that new talents and abilities are emerging. That the ability to weave a time-travelling gateway is a new talent is not out of the question.<br /><br />Also, look at what happened when Rand balefired Rahvin - three dead people came back to life, and didn't remember any of it, even though others remembered it. The rules aren't as simple as you imply. In the case of time-travel, I suppose you must think of it as being like in the movies 'back to the future', where future changes are incorporated into the timeline before they occur (from the traveller's viewpoint). This would be demonstrated by the Gholam sensing the use of the BotW even as Elayne and co are using the gateway (assuming that's what it felt).<br /><br />Also, RJ has made it quite clear that time is malleable, as is space. Space being malleable is what allows channellers to make gateways. By that logic, it is believable that they can travel in time as well. To add to this, consider that RJ has a background in physics, and a standard physics theory is that space and time are interconnected as 'space-time', and the same rules apply to both.<br /><br />The DO says 'even I cannot step outside of time', but that is easily explained. First of all, the quote indicates that he cannot know the future, and so he would not yet know that time-travel is possible using the OP. Second, he is trapped, as I understood it, within TAR, and so is actually trapped within time, but outside of the worlds. He literally cannot step outside of time, as he is trapped within it.<br /><br /><br /><br />&quot;The paradoxical implications of Aviendha and that group of women travelling back in time are so great to comprehend that I won't even list them here. It also flies against the whole concept of the Pattern which is driven by the Power - and thus cannot 'reverse'.&quot;<br /><br />If it is used carefully enough, there need not be a paradox. RJ is clearly very intelligent, and I am sure he can set up rules regarding time-travel that ensure no paradox can arise. Also, keep in mind that it is fantasy, and so paradox can even be embraced as part of the world.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Asmodean is alive and posing as Sammael!<br /><br />Sammael <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sammy.gif" border="0" /> is Sparticus.<br /><br />No, I'm Sparticus! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /> = <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />I'm Herid Fel Reborn!!!!! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shy.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-09-15 21:52:13
subject: <b>Read it!</b>
body:
Read the section where Avi makes her weave. It is NOT exactly the same weave as Eli's. She uses as much as she can remember of her old weave, including a gesture like opening a tent flap, that neither Eli nor anyone else uses.<br /><br />It is not the same.<br /><br />Also, read Moridin's thoughts again. He rants about all of the new things these untutored rustics have created, from healing stilling to unmaking weaves to controling the weather without using terangreal. Then he wonders what other new things they may have come up with. A strong hint, maybe, from RJ?<br /><br />Also, Mat may have lost track of time, but for the several hours necessary to make up for all of the time between the girls leaving and their detecting the channeling in the city? Seems a stretch. It is a minimum of two hours, and it seems like more like three, including travel time, catching the runaway wise women, using the bowl long enough to exhaust the users. Long enough indeed for scouts to be sent from the city to check out all of the saidar being used at the farm, in the middle of the battle no less.<br /><br />A big on the other hand, though, is that none of the trained wind finders, nor Nynave, nor Brigitte nor Lan, mentions anything strange about the sun. Odd that, although I suppose they all had other things to worry about, and it was a pretty strange situation for all of them.


created: 2005-09-16 08:45:55
subject: <b>Good theory</b>
body:
I don't agree with it, but is good to see all this discussion. That's what a theory should be about.<br />Nice one salty.


created: 2005-09-16 12:57:24
subject: <b>Indeed, it &quot;IS&quot; possible.</b>
body:
To &quot;Step outside of time&quot; and to &quot;travel &lt;b&gt;through&lt;b&gt; time, are &lt;i&gt;very&lt;i&gt; different. Indeed, it can be argued that Balefire causes the items which it strikes to travel backwards in time as it unravels them. Or to put it on other words, it instantaneously pulls the entire WoT universe backwards in time, unravels/destroyes the target, and then instantaneously jumps everything forward in time again. We have already seen that Gateways are NOT just for traveling. i.e. Rand's gateway into the &quot;World of Dreams&quot; the gateways opened up into the &quot;skimming plane,&quot; and etc. It would also be able to perfectly explain the &quot;Twice dawns the day&quot; prophecy. Min can &quot;view&quot; things, which &lt;i&gt;should&lt;i&gt; by all logical explanations be &lt;i&gt;&lt;b&gt;impossible&lt;i&gt;&lt;b&gt;, so why then, would it be so hard to justify the existence of Time travel? Indeed, I don't believe that Avhienda uses the method of Traveling imparted to her by Elayne, but rather that method which she (for lack of better words) Spontaneously learned. When she and Rand Traveled to Seanchan through it, it was, by all evidence, in the heart of winter. This was during a time when the World (and why not the Entirety of it?) was experiencing a &quot;massive-weather-anomaly&quot; in the form of a Summer that lasted (possiby, the exact length may be wrong) double the normal length. Perhaps this is another instance of time travel (however, it would have been a MUCH longer time if that is correct). Nice job, and I look forward to more such well-presented theories.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> &quot;I'm the D.O.&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /> &quot;No I am&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rand.gif" border="0" /> &quot;KILL THEM!&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /> &quot;You can't possibly win!&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" />*smirks* &quot;Ya wanna make a bet???&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perrin.gif" border="0" /> *mutters* &quot;stupid axe&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/avi.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/min.gif" border="0" /> &quot;YOU CAN DO IT!&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2005-09-16 16:48:05
subject: <b>to lil timmy</b>
body:
<i>A big on the other hand, though, is that none of the trained wind finders, nor Nynave, nor Brigitte nor Lan, mentions anything strange about the sun. Odd that, although I suppose they all had other things to worry about, and it was a pretty strange situation for all of them.</i><br />Surprisingly enough you are the first to mention this. I'm not sure about Birgitte or Lan. But the windfinders are definitely trained to tell time rather accurately. I was all prepared to offer this defense:<br />&quot;Horses and Aviendha&quot; essentially the windfinders don't notice the time difference because they are all so focused on riding. None of them has ridden before. If we can go by Shalon's PoV in WH, they are afraid of the horses and are concentrating on that. In addition to their fear of horses, Elayne sends Avi to &quot;bother&quot; them a bit. Which Avi obviously does enjoy doing, to the point that Renaile asks Elayne to &quot;snub her in&quot;  (good nautical term that, it means to tie closely and tightly to a pier). So the windfinders aren't looking at the sun, they are looking at the horses teeth, and Avi's. <br /><br />NaCl(and I imagine Avi can be quite disconcerting when she want to be)H2O <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Any comments on my photos appreciated</font><p><a href="http://saltwater.smugmug.com/" target="_blank">My photos, a work in progress</a></p><p></p>


created: 2005-09-17 02:40:05
subject: <b>Some more arguments ...</b>
body:
<i>Salt</i><br />You claim that the gholam sensed the Bowl of the Winds. This <i>would</i> be a paradox in my opinion. After they Travelled they travelled on horseback, debated, regathered the hysterical Kin and then finally fixed the weather. The implication is that several hours passed by - and probably half a day, which grossly exceeds the time travel period which you imply Aviendha produced.<br /><br />Despite it being fantasy, one must remember that the author is a physicist and that he has obeyed almost every other boundary of physics in his writing. Being a typical physicist - the Power is riddles with rules and limits (as Rand says), and I just believe that time is one of them.<br /><br />It is not so silly to dismiss the Talent because of lack of evidence. There have been no unexpected Talents in the series so far. The Guide and other sources mention the lost Talents (some of which have returned), Birgitte mentions that being a Wolfbrother is exceedingly rare but it has happened, and Jordan himself said that Min's Talent was not unique. The Forsaken often speak about other Talents and skills. There has never been the slightest reference to this Talent, and even worse, Jordan hasn't shown any desire to build upon this budding Talent of Aviendha's. We have received no comments about it from characters after the weather was restored, no repitition of this feat and no other evidence whatsoever.<br /><br />There is also another point. Aviendha Travels after this. For instance in CoT she Travels...<br /><br />CoT (Talk of Debts) - <i>The gateway was positioned so that Elayne seemed to be riding out of a hole in the wall &#8230; Aviendha was last to appear out of the gateway , of course , after she was sure that everyone was through , and before she let the gateway wink out of existence &#8230; </i><br /><br />Now I am not sure what the implication here is, but her feat was clearly unique, and for no good reason, because shortly after this they sense the Choedan Kal and there really is no way that they Travelled back in time.<br /><br /><i>Light in the Night</i><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> ... One must also ask that if the Creator is not bound by time then he could also stop, rewind and replay issues which he took exception to. I very much doubt he would accept a taint on his own Power - yet it was allowed. Unless you believe Rand's analogy to the gardener with the flowers?<br /><br /><i>Aielyn</i><br /><br />I don't agree with several points. I did not say the TP and OP were identical, I said they have the same potentials. Moridin has proved that he can do anything with the TP - and sometimes more - and by no means does it appear to be a less effective energy source. While it does not drive the Pattern, the DO has shown that it has more than enough influence to alter the Pattern i.e. the Weather, TP gateways rip the Pattern.<br /><br />I addressed the Talents comment to Salt above. Balefire doesn't cause the entire Pattern to reverse at all. It burns a thread out of the Pattern - destructive compared to Aviendha's supposedly constructive act. On the contrary to your argument I believe Jordan has made it quite clear that time is the one factor which cannot be disturbed by anyone - and thus the gravity of everyone's choices in the series. If time was malleable, then huge feats would have been undertaken in the AOL, yet they were not. All they could do was alter the perception of time, but very fast or very slow - time marches on. It is also unlikely that the DO doesn't know almost everything about the OP - considering he has been faced with it for countless Ages, he knows it's limits and he knows his enemy. I agree that he cannot see the future because he is apart from the Pattern. I just don't believe that no one in the AOL wouldn't have had this Talent - Aviendha isn't even trying anything. This isn't akin to Healing Stilling - experimenting etc. She is duplicating a known weave. So if anyone in the AOL had this Talent it would hence be manifested in the same way.<br /><br /><i>Lil Timmy </i><br /><br />The weave is identical to Elaynes ...<br /><br />TPoD (To Keep the Bargain) - <i>She fought the urge to draw more ; already she held almost as much as she could &#8230; The flows coalesced into a silvery , vertical slash that rotated and became an opening in the air , taller than a man and just as wide&#8230; The gateway filled her with dissatisfaction. <b>Elayne could make this weave with only a part of her strength</b> , yet for some reason it required all but a fraction of Aviendha&#8217;s. She was sure she could have woven a larger , as large as Elayne could &#8230; Unlike Elayne , she could not move more than five or six steps without this weave beginning to weaken , and the same if she tried to tie it off. It was all very frustrating. </i><br /><br />In fact, Aviendha appears to be rather dismal with this weave. So if she is time Travelling, she is doing it under the pretense that she is messing it up. It just doesn't make sense. Travelling is the one area I am convinced Aviendha is seriously deficient. All the evidence points this way. In fact, I think she is weak in Spirit, with unusual strength in Fire (there's enough evidence for this). She has no ability in TAR, and she Travels very poorly.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">A One Power researcher<br />Defender of Lanfear<br />Grand Ninja-Nae'blis to be feared <br />Original Warder to Isa <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br />New Warder to Nossie <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />Toy to Seriana <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/winky.gif" border="0" /><br />Mystified by a Fan <br />Bonded Phelix - I was young, it happened so fast.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-09-17 10:37:55
subject: <b>To sid; a few points</b>
body:
<blockquote>It is not so silly to dismiss the Talent because of lack of evidence. There have been no unexpected Talents in the series so far. The Guide and other sources mention the lost Talents (some of which have returned), Birgitte mentions that being a Wolfbrother is exceedingly rare but it has happened, and Jordan himself said that Min's Talent was not unique. The Forsaken often speak about other Talents and skills. There has never been the slightest reference to this Talent, and even worse, Jordan hasn't shown any desire to build upon this budding Talent of Aviendha's. We have received no comments about it from characters after the weather was restored, no repitition of this feat and no other evidence whatsoever.</blockquote><br />Basically what you are saying here sid is that RJ can't introduce anything new into the series. I mean, because it hasn't been mentioned before it can't exsist? Because there are vast paradoxes that <i>can</i> be introduced with time travel that the author can't introduce time travel? Besides, a good argument can be made for balefire being a limited type of time travel, so essentially RJ <i>has</i> already introduced the concept. Just because there have been no &quot;unexpected Talents&quot; (a fragile statement I'll let pass for the moment) doesn't mean there can't be any introduced. RJ has certainly introduced other &quot;unexpected elements&quot; balefire's effects and Forsaken reincarnations being just two. Birgitte mentions wolfbrothers <i>after Perrin becomes one!</i> so you argument there is completely invalid. Her mentioning it validates the concept, however the concept had already been introduced. <br />I come back to my original argument. This is <b>FANTASY</b>. This is RJ's fantasy. He can put anything into it he wants to, at any stage in the series. He can ignore things like a continent wide drought of 6 months or more would result in massive forest fires all over the place. He can ignore the impossibility of an insect larva infestation in an unheated warehouse in the middle of a hard winter. He can ignore the paradoxes apparent in time travel and he can introduce the possibility that one of our heroines just may have the Talent to make it happen. <br /><br />NaCl(just because it ain't been done doesn't mean it won't be done)H2O<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Any comments on my photos appreciated</font><p><a href="http://saltwater.smugmug.com/" target="_blank">My photos, a work in progress</a></p><p></p>


created: 2005-09-17 21:39:25
subject: <b>Very well done</b>
body:
not sure if I agree but you did a nice job of putting together related quotes and passages. very good research<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" />Screaming_Defiance<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" />I demand the return of Hurin<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />I love these smiley's<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/clap.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banghead.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shakefist.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-09-18 05:33:26
subject: <b>Salt...</b>
body:
If Jordan is introducing a new concept here then he is doing it in such a secretive and subtle way, that it would almost be impossible to comprehend.<br /><br />Let's look at the rediscovery of Cuendillar in CoT ... <i>Mother I can't believe you discovered Cuendillar. This is the most amazing discovery yet. It requires strength in Earth and the weave looks just so.... </i><br /><br />If we had to apply the same type of revelation that you are suggesting to cuendillar, it would look something like this... <i>Egwene passed a tent. There were sisters channeling inside working common metals into more valuable substances. </i><br /><br />In other words... extremely vague. Why would Jordan introduce this new Talent with the only evidence being paradoxes in the sun's position? Don't you think he would have been more obvious, like with every other Talent he has introduced i.e. Cuendillar, making ter'angreal, Healing, Listening to the Wind etc.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">A One Power researcher<br />Defender of Lanfear<br />Grand Ninja-Nae'blis to be feared <br />Original Warder to Isa <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br />New Warder to Nossie <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />Toy to Seriana <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/winky.gif" border="0" /><br />Mystified by a Fan <br />Bonded Phelix - I was young, it happened so fast.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-09-18 10:52:35
subject: <b>Reanne and the Windfinders</b>
body:
TPoD - ch.1(To Keep the Bargain) &quot;Everyone crowded close as she began to weave the flows ... Sumeko and, surprisingly, Reanne openly studied what she was doing ... All of the Windfinders had sufficient strength. They watched as hungrily as they had stared at the Bowl. The bargain gave them every right.&quot;<br /><br />This shows that all of them have learned the weave for Traveling from Aviendha. We have seen Reanne using gateways and there was nothing unusual about it. Windfinders were also using gateways and nobody mentioned anything unusual about those gateways and they were Traveling a lot, bringing supplies to Caemlyn. Aviendha was using the weave for Traveling that Egwene rediscovered, but with certain difficulties. You believe that the extra power she put in the weave was because of time-Traveling:<br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>All I know is that Aviendha must use almost all of her strength to make it work and Elayne doesn't. They are very close in strength. Where does the extra power go if the weaves are identical? I don't know. But I suspect the go into making more time.</b></font><br /><br />But here is a quote from TPoD - ch.12(New Alliances) &quot;The first way you learned the weave for a particular thing imprinted itself on you; learning a second was all but impossible, and even when you could learn, the second weave almost never worked nearly as well.&quot; (Cadsuane's POV)<br /><br />This is I believe the reason of that extra power and her difficulties with the weave. She was using a different weave than the one she used, when she was running from Rand.<br />


created: 2005-09-18 21:06:22
subject: <b>Aviendha's gateway in CoT</b>
body:
sidious - If you carefully read the part in CoT where Aviendha makes a gateway, you will notice that no mention is made of the motion she did in PoD (the opening gesture). Furthermore, Elayne makes no mention of Aviendha drawing almost all of the power that she could, or anything like that. Given RJ's penchant for re-explaining things in each book, it seems that Aviendha has learnt the normal weave by now.<br /><br />As for the explanation being secretive and subtle, you compare to cuendillar, but cuendillar was known in the AoL, and thus the knowledge was passed on. Time-travelling was definitely unknown in the AoL. It is more akin to the Wolfbrothers, and the only reasons why we know about wolfbrothers is that wolves (and heroes of the horn) have very long memories.<br /><br />Birgitte has no reason to comment about time-travel, given that she did not encounter it until most of her older memories had faded. She mentioned wolfbrothers because she met Perrin while in TAR.<br /><br />Also, I do not remember Birgitte commenting that Stilling had been healed in any of her past lives. Why is it justifiable for the healing of Stilling to be unknown and new, but time-travel has to be known of?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Asmodean is alive and posing as Sammael!<br /><br />Sammael <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sammy.gif" border="0" /> is Sparticus.<br /><br />No, I'm Sparticus! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /> = <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />I'm Herid Fel Reborn!!!!! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shy.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-09-19 09:50:09
subject: <b>Great work</b>
body:
I think you have it all right. Good job reading!<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">The Upper Peninsula...the Two Rivers of this world... <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-09-21 20:56:41
subject: <b>An Interesting Thought!</b>
body:
I just had a very interesting thought.<br /><br />Asmodean was never killed! He disappeared without a trace, and I know how.<br /><br />Aviendha's time-travelling gift is used (Rand asks her to use it) to travel back to the time when Asmo disappeared, hoping to save him from death. What they don't realise is that Asmo was fated to be saved by time-travel, and that had he been left alone, he would have survived.<br /><br />RJ has been leaving tiny clues all over the place, including the choice of words by the DO (Asmodean, TWISTED by his...).<br /><br />To be honest, I don't know whether I consider this serious or funny. I could imagine RJ doing this, but at the same time, it is WAY out there.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Asmodean is alive and posing as Sammael!<br /><br />Sammael <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sammy.gif" border="0" /> is Sparticus.<br /><br />No, I'm Sparticus! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /> = <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />I'm Herid Fel Reborn!!!!! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shy.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-09-24 02:16:40
subject: <b>.umm..</b>
body:
well I thought it was pretty obvious her gateway went through time.<br /><br />I'm kinda surprised it warrented a theory.


created: 2005-09-25 02:20:15
subject: <b>Min_cauthon</b>
body:
How the hell is this obvious?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">A One Power researcher<br />Defender of Lanfear<br />Grand Ninja-Nae'blis to be feared <br />Original Warder to Isa <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br />New Warder to Nossie <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />Toy to Seriana <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/winky.gif" border="0" /><br />Mystified by a Fan <br />Bonded Phelix - I was young, it happened so fast.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-09-25 08:36:52
subject: <b>Sidious</b>
body:
Have you not, yourself, found things in WoT that you thought were pretty obvious, but others disagreed with you on?<br /><br />Min_cauthon's view is perfectly valid - that it is fairly obvious (to him), even if it turns out to be false.<br /><br />Why do you react with such antipathy towards this possibility? Why are you so against it that you cannot accept the slightest possibility?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Asmodean is alive and posing as Sammael!<br /><br />Sammael <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sammy.gif" border="0" /> is Sparticus.<br /><br />No, I'm Sparticus! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /> = <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />I'm Herid Fel Reborn!!!!! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shy.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-09-25 15:23:52
subject: <b>Aielyn</b>
body:
I don't agree with the theory which is perfectly within my right. I have also noted all my evidence which I believe refutes the idea. However, I am not opposed to anyone who believes this theory, even if it does seem farfetched to me. The theory is well presented and it is a possibility, but not in my opinion.<br /><br />What I do dispute is that this was obvious to anyone who read it. That is a lie. It would imply that the reader picked up a discrepancy in the sun's position when they first read the passage ... something I find highly unlikely ,just to put it mildly. To me it seems like a snide attempt to portray superior intelligence and diminish the originality of the theory.<br /><br />You seem to be targetting my responses, so perhaps I should refute some of yours. You are nitpicking regarding Aviendha's gateway just to convince yourself of the validity of the theory. Elayne was watching the weaving of the gateway and Aviendha clearly said that she was duplicating Elayne's efforts at Travelling. So it was Elayne's weave she duplicated in TPoD, and Elayne made no mention of an alteration in weaving, of any abnormality in Elayne's gateway etc. So basically no one is aware of this new Talent AND it manifests using a normal gateway i.e. not a different weave. Aviendha then Travels again in CoT without a gesture. All this proves is that she can Travel without gestures now, which proves that she is improving in her abilities. Jordan said she was struggling to Travel, now she has improved. <br /><br />As for cuendillar, it is one of the Lost Talents. On what basis do you presume that people in the AOL never knew about time travel? All your thoughts about Birgitte are totally invalid. As if Birgitte knew a thousandth of what was possible with the Power. She can't even channel. The whole series Jordan has said that two things are impossible - Healing stilling and Healing the Dead. So it comes as no surprise that he has made a remarkable revelation that these are possible.<br /><br />So time travel ... when has he ever mentioned it in the series? When has it ever been debated, or even the wish to Time Travel. Why <i>would</i> he make them Travel a few hours back? ... there is no good reason. And then he veils the Talent so subtley that less than 1% of readers will ever pick it up. Unlike the other Talents which he shouted regarding their discoveries i.e. Dreaming, Cuendillar, ter'angreal making, Healing stilling. It doesn't fit into the Pattern, and worst of all, it has no plot use or logic.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">A One Power researcher<br />Defender of Lanfear<br />Grand Ninja-Nae'blis to be feared <br />Original Warder to Isa <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br />New Warder to Nossie <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />Toy to Seriana <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/winky.gif" border="0" /><br />Mystified by a Fan <br />Bonded Phelix - I was young, it happened so fast.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-09-25 21:24:40
subject: <b>Sidious</b>
body:
First, I would like to say, once again, that I have not decided whether or not this theory is valid. I simply argue what I see, and what I see is that there is something odd about Aviendha's gateway, even if it is just a weak one. I gave a short list of other explanations for the observed effects in a previous post.<br /><br />That said, I will now respond to your refutations.<br /><br />It was not quite Elayne's weave that Aviendha was duplicating in tPoD. First of all, Aviendha still needs to make the gesture at this point, second it takes far more of her power than it should, and third she says herself that she incorporates what she can remember of her own weave. These three add up to the conclusion that her weave, at this point, does not match Elayne's. In the scenes in CoT, no mention is made of gestures or drawing most of her power, and so it is possible that Aviendha has managed to learn Elayne's weave by then.<br /><br />As for the paragraph about Cuendillar, you make my point for me - it is one of the talents known in the AoL, then lost in the third age. Also, Birgitte truly wouldn't know every feat possible with the power, and so would have no reason to recognise a time-travelling gateway for what it is. Also, RJ has made a character do what was previously thought impossible (healing stilling), so why can he not do it again.<br /><br />Sure, there has been no explicit mention of time travel in the series before this, but then again, if you agree with some of the proponents of the theory, there has been an implicit mention through 'twice dawns the day'. Just to emphasise, I doubt that time-travel would relate to the double-dawn, as it would be too easy for them to simply travel from, say, Rhuidean (just after dawn) to Arad Doman (just before dawn) to satisfy this prophecy. It would be unnecessary to use time-travel to satisfy it. This would, however, be one possible use for it. Another is the suggestion I put forth recently that perhaps it explains what happened to Asmodean (Aviendha fears what Asmo may have done and travels back in time to kill him just before they believe he escaped, of course it was her killing him that caused him to disappear in the first case).<br /><br />Finally, there are a number of event in the story that initially go unexplained, such as Rand at the end of EotW channelling (not explained until tGH, IIRC). Each of them gets explained eventually, but until then, not everyone realises what happenned (you probably thought it was 'obvious', but others may have thought otherwise).<br /><br />Now onto your direct reply to my last post. What Min_Cauthon said was 'I thought it was pretty obvious'. That doesn't mean obvious to everyone, it means obvious to the poster. For the record, I thought there was something funny going on when I first read that scene, but I was too absorbed in the story to spend time thinking about it, and by the end of the book, I had forgotten it, with the use of the bowl, and Elayne's unweaving, and other events.<br /><br />You said only 1% or readers would pick it up, but that is simply one of the effects of subtlety. The theory currently has a 77% positive response, implying that, once pointed out, it seems quite plausible to many, and some may even call it obvious, once it is pointed out. Another clarification - I have not voted on the theory, as I still have not made up my mind on the issue. You could say I am playing devil's advocate by arguing the point with you. If it had have been someone else who supports the theory, I just might have taken the opposed it in my posts for the same reason.<br /><br />I must say I am enjoying discussing this with you. The only way to find the truth on this is through discussion and debate (unless RJ decides to come out with a clear, exact answer).<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Asmodean is alive and posing as Sammael!<br /><br />Sammael <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sammy.gif" border="0" /> is Sparticus.<br /><br />No, I'm Sparticus! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /> = <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />I'm Herid Fel Reborn!!!!! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shy.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-09-28 16:54:37
subject: <b>I'm still undecided</b>
body:
There do seem to be chronological irregularities in both the Ebou Dar and Far Snows episodes. However, I can't make up my mind which makes more sense - that they Travel forward in time, backward in time, or don't Travel through time at all.<br /><br />On the Travelling backward issue, I have a problem with the gholam sensing the Power where he is and further north simultaneously. I don't buy the fact that he is sensing the bowl of winds being used. Firstly, it would seem awful coincidental that the two incidents were simultaneous. Secondly, if it isn't paradoxical, any of the female channelers yet to pass through the gate would feel the Bowl being used, and if not them then Moridin. It seems to be possible to feel the Bowl being used from Ebou Dar because that's what draws the Seanchan to investigate.<br /><br />I'm also pretty sceptical about the Travelling forward, even though I quite like the idea as explained by Shishka. To make the Far Snows timeline work it would seem that they would have had to Travel about 10 hours forward, remain in Seanchan for 10 hours, and Travel forwards another 10 hours on the return trip, making a total of 30 hours away, or a day and 6 hours. This would make sense with Rand leaving at about bedtime (say 11 pm) and returning a couple of hours before sunrise (5 am) but having missed a day. It is this missed day I have issue with, because I don't buy no-one missing either of them for a whole day.<br /><br />That leaves nothing happening at all, which I think is probably the most likely option, even though it leaves questions, especially with the Far Snows incident. I think the Ebou Dar incident can probably be made to correspond whether or not there is any time travel, due to the imprecision in the timings given.<br />Perhaps the Far Snows timings can be solved if the part of Seanchan they Travel to is very close to one of the poles (can't remember if it's summer or winter in Randland, but here we want whichever pole is in summer, so that the sun never sets). We also need them to be not too far West from Cairhien, so that the time difference is only about 5 hours.<br />Then Rand leaves at 11pm Cairhien time, and arrives at 6pm Seanchan time. He and Aviendha are there for 7 hours, watching the sun rise at 1am (having missed it set at 11pm because they were otherwise engaged). They then make their way back to the gateway, and go through about half an hour after sunrise, or 1.30am. They arrive back in Cairhien, where the time is 6.30 am, a couple of hours before sunrise.<br />What do you think? I'm not sure about the timings because I don't have the book handy, and the whole thing seems a bit contrived anyway. Still, I thought I'd put it out there.


created: 2005-09-29 06:59:55
subject: <b>Well...</b>
body:
I'm as yet undecided as to if this is correct, tho it certainly seems possible.<br />One thing you (people on msb) seem to be missing, is that Aviendha doesn't seem aware of being able to time travel. And neither does anyone else. So why would someone recognise something they're not aware that they're doing? Which in turn could imply that it's been done previously too, just that it went unnoticed.<br />Another thing, one shouldn't take what the BWB says as 100% to anything. If I'm not mistaken, it was stated that the BWB was written by som AS at some point. Also meaning that some information could be inacurate or incomplete.<br /><br />Just my thoughts.


created: 2005-09-29 15:08:36
subject: <b>To Hound ...</b>
body:
The problem you have with my idea is the same as the problem I have with it.  That is, in the Far Snows episode, I don't think Rand and Avi were gone for 1 day plus 6~8 hrs.  If they had been, Asmo, Moiraine, or one of the other charcters with them would have commented on it.  It seems they were only gone 6~8 hrs or so (i.e. just overnight).  So, the idea just doesn't work, unfortunately.<br /><br />Regarding your idea about Rand and Avi being near one of the poles, in Seanchan, at the time ... I proposed (and then rejected) that idea in a reply to a Message Board post that was made just after this theory came out.  The main reason it doesn't work is that the Far Snows episode occurred on ~Sept 1st - only 3 weeks from the autumnal equinox.  So, the sunrise and sundown times would have been very close to the same everywhere on the world, including the poles, at that time of year. <br /><br />Here's a link to that discussion, if you're interested.<br /><br />http://www.wotmania.com/wotmessageboardshowmessage.asp?MessageID=239724<br /><br />See my reply to the original post (and the discussion below it).<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Rise and fall, turn the Wheel,<br />'cause all life is<br />Is really just a circle.&quot;<br /><br />-BHT&amp;tM</font><p></p>


created: 2005-09-29 17:11:47
subject: <b>Fair enough</b>
body:
Shishka...<br />As I said I don't have the books handy, so I didn't know what time of year it was. I guess that blows the theory apart. Thanks for the link.<br /><br />I can't really make it add up any which way then. Maybe as I think someone mentioned Aviendha's first gate went to a mirror world, similar enough to have Seanchan, damane, and another Rand al'Thor somewhere, but with the sun at a slightly point in the cycle.


created: 2005-09-29 20:49:54
subject: <b>Aviendha causes the corenne</b>
body:
Has anyone considered the possibility that, in the Far Snows episode, Aviendha actually travelled a LONG way back in time? I mean, in the Far Snows section, she is using only her own weave, whereas in the Ebou Dar one, she is using a merging of her weave with Elayne's. Is it possible that Aviendha travelled back to before the Seanchan began the return, and it was her and Rand's appearance in Seanchan that triggered it.<br /><br />This would explain why the Seanchan arrived in such a timely manner (why else would they have chosen that exact time to cross the Aryth Ocean again?).<br /><br />Anyway, it is just a thought.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Asmodean is alive and posing as Sammael!<br /><br />Sammael <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sammy.gif" border="0" /> is Sparticus.<br /><br />No, I'm Sparticus! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /> = <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />I'm Herid Fel Reborn!!!!! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shy.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-09-29 21:44:55
subject: <b>To Aielyn ...</b>
body:
It's an interesting thought, but it's not possible.  The noble woman (Lady Morsa) who was, presumably, leading the Seanchan party that Rand and Avi encountered as they were trying to return to the Westlands, recognized Rand from Falme.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Rise and fall, turn the Wheel,<br />'cause all life is<br />Is really just a circle.&quot;<br /><br />-BHT&amp;tM</font><p></p>


created: 2005-10-02 16:39:44
subject: <b>Avi's Talent...</b>
body:
Umm maybe you missed it, but Avi *has* a rare talent:<br /><br />(after being yelled at for picking apart the gateway)&quot;Aviendha did not qutie include her in her exasperated look she gave the other sisters. 'This leaves to residue.'...<br />   Merilille snorted, a ver strong sound to come from that slight body. 'That is a rare Talent, girl. Neither Teslyn nor Joline has it.' <br />   'Few can do it,' Aviendha admitted calmly. 'But I can.'&quot;<br />tPoD Ch.2 page 77(paper-back)<br /><br /><br /> All this was breifly mentioned by wahooka, but I thought I'd give it a little back up.


created: 2005-10-10 11:38:09
subject: <b>talents and gateway physics</b>
body:
First, as mentioned earlier, RJ loves symmetry. Aviendha's ability to read residues is not really that &quot;unique&quot; compared with the ablilities of the other female characters associated with Rand.<br /><br />As for the time traveling, its definately a possiblity. Another thing RJ loves to do is leave little clues that mean nothing to us now, but that have a huge impact later. Someone said this in an earlier post. Im just agreeing.<br /><br />Also, I think it's important to mention one thing that has indeed been referenced through out the series by Rand and a couple others. Why hasnt one of the forsaken used a gateway to transport thousands of trollics...? I mean, why make them use the Ways? Have we yet seen evidence of this in the series? Who but the good guys have used gateways to move tons of people and equipment all at once? Even in the AoL, we know the AS helped individuals travel from one place to another. But to transport large items, they used planes, trains, and automobiles. Why fly when you can travel?<br /><br />Maybe doing this distorts the pattern in some way? Its just a thought. Ofcourse, this wouldnt explain the possible time discrepancy in the Far Snows episode, but actually, I dont think there was a time lapse there.<br /><br />Although, to poke a hole in my post, Sammael did infact use gateways to move a bunch of Shaido Aiel. However, he didnt go through the gateway himself, so who knows?


created: 2005-10-10 17:37:07
subject: <b>Avi's gateways</b>
body:
correct me if im wrong but has avi overcome her problem with weaving a gateway without using all her strength? if not then everytime she performes this weaving would be an incident of time travel. such as all the times she and elayne have hopped around andor. which would affect when elayne wouldbe expecting help from all those loyal houses they have visited. appologies if im wrong.


created: 2005-12-07 16:10:18
subject: <b>Another talent...</b>
body:
Well written theory but I don&#180;t agree with your conclusion. I don&#180;t think it&#180;s possible to travel backward in time but maybe forward ( even if i don&#180;t think that was what happend)...  <br /><br />Now you&#180;ve been proven  right about the special talent to (after KoD) Avienda really had a special talent<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" />


created: 2006-03-24 20:31:21
subject: <b>But wouldn't Moridin have noticed?</b>
body:
He would have noticed the huge use of Saidar and Saidin from the bowl of winds if he was still in Ebou Dar when Madic tells him about the weather changing.<br /><br />Otherwise good points all around...I did notice the quote about Elayne thinking the height of the sun was different but I had attributed it to them traveling and time zones and stuff like that, but I had forgotten it wasnt very far away in the first place so there wouldnt be a time zone change


created: 2006-05-01 10:33:50
subject: <b>it could work</b>
body:
Just because the sun is more east wouldnt mean elayne would notice it. If you go through a gateway and spin around you would not realise that the sun had changed direction. elayne would have had to come through the gateway keeping your bearings and looking at the sun again straight away, and even if she did she may have presumed she just lost her bearings, she wouldnt go through to check whilst they were rushing with the possibility of a gjolam or moghedien who had recently attacked nyanaeve on their heels not to mention she would have had to think of the whole theory in a few minutes before the gateway closed


created: 2006-09-25 18:31:05
subject: <b>Just Like Jordan</b>
body:
I can't believe I didn't notice that before... and it would be just like Jordan to encorporate something like that into his story.  And it makes much more sense than some of the other theories floating around out there.  Thanks for the clarification!


created: 2007-01-12 06:16:25
subject: <b>ravenx2k:</b>
body:
The forsaken didn't travel with huge numbers of trollocs because Shadowspawn are killed when they enter a gateway. That's how the &quot;deathgates&quot; work.


created: 2007-03-21 15:55:53
subject: <b>to the last two posters</b>
body:
Both points you make are very true, but the discussion in which the questions were raised, KoD hadn't come out yet.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I'm a gambler, a farmboy, and I'm here to take command of your bloody army.<br /><br /><i>Thus is our treaty written; thus is agreement made. <br />Thought is the arrow of time; memory never fades. <br />What was asked is given; the price is paid.</i></font><p></p>


created: 2007-07-04 23:48:12
subject: <b>A different opinion</b>
body:
I believe that the difference in time is due more to a lapse in RJ's attention to detail then to any specific plot.  The reason Avienda has so much trouble wiht the gateway weave is because she learend it differently the first time she did it, having done it by instinct.  I forget where but one Aes Sedai mentions that the tower dislikes teaching wilders because once a woman learns a weave one way, i is almost impossible to relearn it another way, and the weave is 'blocked' in some way, explaining why Avienda's gateway's are smaller and take more of her power then they should.


created: 2007-12-12 20:07:29
subject: <b>I agree but disagree</b>
body:
I agree with the theory but as others have stated RJ could have made a mistake he has been known to do that especially concerning Saidin and Saidar. But otherwise it is a good theory and well explained.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2008-07-28 16:02:27
subject: <b>Great Theory however...</b>
body:
I just dont see this being correct with Avi using the same weave Elayne had taught her.<br /><br />An interesting question here is How did she make her FIRST gateway? How was it different? is there something important here that we are missing? or is it just an unimportant little tidbit that Avi has trouble with these gateways? personally, i think it could have an interesting and important role later on.


created: 2005-09-18 10:23:23
subject: <b>Excellent theory!</b>
body:
I don't remember this captain at all, but you put it together so well, I have no choice but to agree!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Check out my WoT(ish) fanfic! Tentatively entitled, Sum of All Worlds, join Scimitar the Dreadlord as he begins an epic journey throughout the Worlds!<br /><br />http://www.worldofamadman.com/viewtopic.php?t=1023<br />Four of twelve updates finished.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-09-18 10:59:54
subject: <b>Hmm.. Interesting Theory.</b>
body:
I'll have to think a bit before I can say agree/disagree. The piecing together and quotes you used were perfect, and I'm leaning toward agreeing. Good job.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-09-18 11:13:19
subject: <b>No way <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /></b>
body:
Didn&#180;t read it completely till now but already there are some points i disagree with.<br />First: I always thought that the mention about Gareth Brynes age was because Caldewin wanted to make sure that Rand is what he seems (an andoran noble).<br />Second: I believe it was Selene who channeled. If it was Asmodean channeling would be nonsense. <br />Thirdly: If Asmo was present, he would be all over Rand when he tried to access the Choedan Kal directly.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">It&#180;s sometimes really inconvienient to have a real life besides WOT.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-09-18 12:19:25
subject: <b>Interesting...</b>
body:
I always thought he was in Cairhien, but Caldevwyn now? That's new. I don't agree with your assessment of some of his reactions, certainly. The question about Bryne's age seems like he was testing Rand's knowledge. And surely it was Selene that caused the serving girl to twitch - Rand would have seen the weaves, or felt Asmodean channel otherwise. Still, you make an intriguing case. I voted yes for &quot;hiding in Cairhien&quot;, but Caldevwyn... I don't think so.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>War must be, while we defend our lives against a destroyer who would devour all; but I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend</i><br />~Faramir</font><p></p>


created: 2005-09-18 12:32:38
subject: <b>Paranoia</b>
body:
Important thing is that Rand looks like an Aiel so any officer of Cairhien should has be suspicious. After all espionage and assasinations seemed to be national hobby of Cairhien. Or I think that officer did just his duty to make sure that Rand was not Aiel agent.


created: 2005-09-18 13:31:02
subject:
<b>I never even considered it <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smackhead.gif" border="0" /> ...</b>

body:
but you convinced me.  Like some others I think the comment about Bryne was probably just a test.  (Asmodean was cautious!)  <br />I think that you are right about him being the one who channeled.  First, I don't agree with the previous comment that he would have seen the weaves or sensed Asmodean channel.  To this point, Rand has not managed to channel 'on demand' and hasn't wanted to (I don't think.)..  it has been spontaneous or accidental.  It takes time to be able to sense someone or see weaves.  This is mentioned when Egwene sees the glow for the first time around Elayne when they first meet.  And I don't think she saw the weave either.  And this is after Egwene has been practicing and receiveing lessons for months!<br />Second, it is mentioned early in TEOTW that Rand 'gets a chill' or something similar when a woman channels near him.  Although Jordan doen't have Rand make the connection until later.  (I didn't notice this until my third re-read)  In the scene in The Nine Rings, Rand does not mention feeling cold or shivering.<br />Great catch and great theory!


created: 2005-09-18 14:06:13
subject: <b>No</b>
body:
1.For some reason, people of all classes and ages in the book like music. He stopped reading to appreciate a tune like anyone else.<br />2.He ordered soldiers out the room so he could talk to Rand and get as much info on him as possible. He did not want the soldiers to get the info, as information is important and he would not want to share the power of knowing about a new lord in town.<br />3.He made the &quot;slip&quot; and Bryne to test Rand out, to see if he had actually met him.<br />4.A big crystal statue under the earth would only be from the age of legends. He even states that he was told that, so he does not know for sure himself.<br />5.When he was talking about moving the statue, human arrogance made him say that &quot;Ogier aren't the only one's who can move stone&quot;, he then looked abashed because Ogier are respected and admired in this age, and probably scared. &quot;To anger an Ogier is to pull the mountains down on your swede&quot;. No contempt.<br />6.The reason he looked at Selene that way is because she is the most beautiful person anyone has met. I don't need to add dozens of quotes saying that. He was probably nursing a semi.<br />7.She channeled. I know there was no reference to Rand having goose bumps, but it was not established yet. He probably wouldn't notice anyway.<br />8.She don't like Caldevwhin because he is digging away at Rand, trying to get info.<br />9.Caldevwhin was angry that he lost Selene because a)his guards are pants and b)he lost more footing he could have gained from bringing her to Cairhein.<br /><br />He could have been in Cairhein, haven't really given it thought. Definately not Caldevwhin though.<br />


created: 2005-09-18 14:32:02
subject: <b>Good theory except for the Selene part</b>
body:
If you buy &quot;The Longest Theory - Part 3&quot;, then there's a disagreement with the interpretation of who &quot;Selene&quot; is.  And that leads to different reasoning for Lanfear grouping up with &quot;Natael&quot; because it wasn't really Lanfear that was in Cairhien.  Link to that theory is below:<br /><br />http://www.wotmania.com/theorypostdbtheory.asp?ID=1148&amp;Category=Forsaken


created: 2005-09-18 17:19:48
subject: <b>i disagree, i think he &lt;was&gt; in Arad Doman</b>
body:
i think asmodean was in the rahvin-lanfear-graendal-sammael alliance near the beginning of the series<br /><br />plus, this gives credit to the theory that graendal killed asmodean <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">idealism not pragmatism</font><p></p>


created: 2005-09-18 21:14:17
subject: <b>Agreed</b>
body:
The scenes with Caldevwin never sat right for me, and this makes alot of sence.<br />I knew there was a reason why i liked Asmodean!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">The Wotmaniac currntly known as &quot;Taint Bearer&quot;<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <i>If you ever catch on fire, try to avoid looking in a mirror, because I bet that will really throw you into a panic.</i> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Came in 13th place in the Wotmania Hunt 2005 with 3790 points!<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-09-19 01:14:03
subject: <b>Good show old boy</b>
body:
7.She channeled. I know there was no reference to Rand having goose bumps, but it was not established yet. He probably wouldn't notice anyway.<br />8.She don't like Caldevwhin because he is digging away at Rand, trying to get info.<br /><br /><br />Going by your line of thought she should have channeled at Calevwhin.  This would have stopped the questioning AND given her the opprotunity to slip out.  Chew on that!


created: 2005-09-19 06:19:35
subject: <b>Red Ear Evets</b>
body:
Channeled at Caldevwhin? And do what? Club him with air? Open a gateway and slice his hoop? Use compulsion? Gag him? Balefire him? Tie him up and throw him through the window?<br />That clearly would have told Rand that the One Power or something was being used and given away her position. Would it not be more inconspicuous to channel at a cat to cause a distraction than to channel at someone Rand is talking to?<br />I came, I chewed, I swallowed. Easy.


created: 2005-09-19 10:41:09
subject: <b>I'm shocked! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/oh.gif" border="0" /></b>
body:
Not only is this theory <i>not</i> based on One Power mechanics, but it also pertains to a Forsaken being disguised as someone. (This comes after we just recently had a discussion on this very topic, and which you seemed opposed to the idea.)<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2005-09-19 10:43:27
subject: <b>Nope</b>
body:
This theory is interesting, but just not plausible.  Caldevwyn is a cautious soldier, doing what cautious soldiers do: Questioning suspicious people.  <br /><br />He acts strange concerning Loial.  Well, Ogier aren't exactly commonplace, he may not have known how to handle himself.  It's a pretty rare bunch that just walked into this inn.  He may have thought Loial was challenging his authority and ability to move the stone, and whether it's possible or not, Caldevwyn obviously doesn't take well to being challenged.  <br /><br />Lanfear is frickin beatuiful, that's why he is interested in her.  <br /><br />Gareth Byrne was, as mentioned above, a test to see if Rand is really Andoran.  <br /><br />Caldevwyn orders his soldiers away because if it turns out that Rand is a nobleman, he doesn't want to seem to be intimidating him or strongarming him with a room full of soldiers.  That would be political suicide for Caldevwyn, and he should see that.  <br /><br />Not every strange person is a forsaken.  Sometimes, people are just weird.  Caldevwyn isn't even that suspicious.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">http://www.green-machine.info<br />Making Money Online</font><p></p>


created: 2005-09-19 10:54:39
subject: <b>Great original theory!</b>
body:
I think this is possible, though I agree with the objections above and would give it a less than 50/50 chance of being correct.<br /><br />I still think that Asmodean spent time in Arad Doman, though he may not have been based there. I think the main reasons for Asmodean being connected to Arad Doman and Graendal are to show who killed him, but that is talk for a bunch of other theories.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Need a book to read - check out my blog for ideas.</font><p><a href="http://nethspace.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">Neth Space</a></p><p></p>


created: 2005-09-19 12:20:22
subject: <b>Very Good</b>
body:
Only RJ can tell us if this is the case...but this and the Mesaana was masquerading as &quot;Selene/Lanfear&quot; as part of her alliance Be'lal theory make sense of lots of vague stuff at this point in the story.  It was presented in this vague way--I assume--because it was early in the story, and RJ was setting a tone to echo Rand's state of mind.  But, the ostensible explanations were never quite complete.  For example, it never did make sense that a junior officer would send men in pursuit of a noblewoman, to bring her back.  It would have made sense for him to ride after her with his detachement to see to her safety whereever she wished to go.  But this is not a medieval world, this is a renassance world, where protected coaches could be hired for a noble traveling alone.  But he would send soldiers to determine if she had traveled by conventional means...or if he should assume that she had traveled...


created: 2005-09-19 17:38:12
subject: <b>One big hole</b>
body:
Your reasoning about Asmodean being Caldewin is well reasoned, but the part about him channeling is pretty weak.  Asmodean may be a coward, but he is not stupid. If he recognized Lanfear, the possibility that her traveling companion might be LTT reborn would have occurred to him, even if the possibility seemed remote. With this in mind, there is no way he would risk revealing himself even if the risk was very small.  Asmodean could not know for certain that Rand was still an ignorant bumkin. Why would he risk ruining his plans if the channeling was detected. Lanfear/Selene channeled, end of story<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Funny thing about weekends when you're unemployed, they don't mean quite so much...except you get to hang out with your working friends.&quot;<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-09-20 08:31:16
subject: <b>Hmmmm</b>
body:
I tend to agree with this theory in general, except for Asmodean channeling. I agree with the last comment at the end there about him being afraid that LTT Reborn might be sitting right there in front of him. Besides Asmodean was/ is supposed to be one of the biggest cowards, next to Mogie, when it comes to direct confrontation. He would not do anything to directly anger Lanfear. Besides even if women can not tell when a man channels you can be sure she has had more than enough time to be observant and make a ^&amp;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" />%^&amp; good guess as to when it happens. Also, it has been said before in the books, no quote sorry, that Rand did not always feel when women were channeling until TSR and he gained more control over the power himself. In EotW he watched Egwene receive her first lesson in the power and there was no mention of him getting the chills at that time, at least I don't remember so (my books are packed up for a move can't read to verify). To say again, in general I agree with the theory nicely done and I like the way that you tied everything together with direct quotes, much better than my one lousy attempt at it.


created: 2005-09-20 10:59:01
subject: <b>Nice theory!</b>
body:
If true, it makes Lanfear's statement to Asmo:<br /><br /><i>Had I not hauled you out of your hole ...</i><br /><br />quite appropriate.  She literally did haul him out of a hole - the excavation pit of the Choedan Kal.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Rise and fall, turn the Wheel,<br />'cause all life is<br />Is really just a circle.&quot;<br /><br />-BHT&amp;tM</font><p></p>


created: 2005-09-21 04:45:42
subject: <b>I completely Agree...</b>
body:
The reasoning, by some posters, that Rand would have felt Asmodean channel is flawed. If Asmodean reversed his weave, Rand would have no inkling that a man had just channeled.<br /><br />In fact, since reversing does not seem to affect the goose bumps a man feels when a woman channels, Rand would be far more likely to sense Selene channel, even if she reversed her weaves, than sense Asmodean using a reversed weave.<br /><br />Why would Lanfear be driven off by a normal officer questioning Rand? She could just get rid of him in one of a hundred possible ways. No. I think it was Asmodean. Somehow she knew who he was. Maybe he had used this disguise before, just like Lanfear had used the Selene persona.<br /><br />It makes sense that familiarity with a specific disguise would make the weave easier to use.<br /><br />And furthermore, this strengthens my theory that Asmodean was a significant player among the Forsaken, easily capable of being a major threat to Lanfear's plans. At the very least, he was very close to her in One Power strength terms.<br /><br />I doubt Asmodean would have so categorically stated the facts about male strength superiority to Rand if the stronger female Forsaken actually surpassed him in strength.<br /><br />That would be a great embarrassment to Asmodean. Imagine teaching someone that <br /><br />&quot;Most men are taller than women, oh, but I (Asmodean) just happen to be a 5 foot dwarf, and am far weaker than the strongest woman in my group.&quot; Really embarrassing.<br /><br />&quot;It is not uncommon to find women stronger than even a very strong man&quot;, thereby compensating for his own lack of strength compared to Lanfear.<br /><br />No way.<br /><br />Asmodean was of male Forsaken strength, and easily capable of facing Lanfear, except in her own domain, which is Tel'aran'rhiod.<br /><br />This passage, where he blatantly throws a spanner in the works to disrupt Lanfear's plans fits in beautifully with such a scenario.<br /><br />I agree with this theory.


created: 2005-09-21 04:49:39
subject: <b>What I meant to include in the above post was...</b>
body:
..It is far more likely that Asmodean would have said something like:<br /><br />&quot;It is not uncommon to find women stronger than even a very strong man,&quot; thereby compensating for his lack of strength compared to Lanfear.<br /><br />The fact that he did not say that, makes me think that he included himself in the category of men stronger than women, even among his peers.


created: 2005-09-21 16:46:55
subject: <b>But Shannow...</b>
body:
Would Lanfear have left Rand alone with Asmodean had she known who he was?  I think not.  <br /><br />THe forsaken in general are a jealous lot, and Lanfear is moreso than most.  It leaves her sudden disappearnce suspicious still, but I'd think if she had known Asmodean was there, she would have stuck to Rand like glue.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">http://www.green-machine.info<br />Making Money Online</font><p></p>


created: 2005-09-22 00:34:33
subject: <b>I like it</b>
body:
This is as good a theory as I have found about who Asmo was hiding as. Great work Sid.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sister to Nossy<br />Shot swapper with a_fan <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br />Bonded to Phil Reborn and Sidious<br />&quot;Mommies are like wizards&quot; ~ CVH <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br />The fact that I don't agree with you in no way means I didn't understand you.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-09-23 18:10:41
subject: <b>Its simply not true!</b>
body:
I think this theory is appealing, but just too much conjecture to be plausible. I would agree with all the nay-saying above, and would include the following points.<br /><br />(1) Even if Asmodean was posing as Caldevwhin, concerning himself with the location of the Choedan Kal would be a waste  of time. They can only be used with the access keys, and the actual location of the statues has no bearing on that in any way. <br /><br />(1) If Asmodean/Caldevwhin actually recognized Lanfear/Selene, why would he even consider sending soldiers after her when she disappears. He would know that Lanfear could avoid the soldiers by Travelling, or simply destroy them in a heartbeat.<br /><br />I'm afraid Caldevwhin is just your typical suspicious Cairhienin, wrapped up in the Daes Daemar


created: 2005-09-25 02:36:10
subject: <b>Asmodean not brave enough</b>
body:
I just finished re-reading TGH and you&#8217;re off on several key points.<br />The first being this: Everybody in Cairhien is at this time playing a deadly version of The Great Game. Rand is dress as a lord and if you are a lord in Cairhien then you must be looking to advance your cause what ever that cause maybe.  A lord playing in a common room, that just is not done, that is what perks the captain attention. The reason he ask about Gareth Bryne is because even though Rand says he is from Andor he does not look like one unless you count the royal line (which we won&#8217;t go into right now). So he tests Rand to see that he is who he says he is. After all if he is an Andorian Lord he must know who Gareth Bryne is. Second: the reason he gets suspicious is because the captain is actually working for the Cairhien king (I forget his name); whose position is not very secure (incase people forgot Thom kills him near the end of the book). The captain is worried that Rand might be working with forces (i.e. other Cairhien lords) to thwart the kings plan to bring that statue to the city and show how powerful he is. Suspicion is very hind in Cairhien right now. The captain is just looking after his master. Now on to his reaction to Selene. The reason Selene wants to leave and not tell the captain who she is because she is Lanfear. Rand the guy she wants to fall in love with her believes she is from a Cairhien house Lanfear does not want him to know the truth yet. And here is this captain who knows all the houses probably all the lords and lady. He would know she was not from one of them. It was she who channel not him. If you notice everybody was surprise and turn towards the girl except for her. <br />But the reason why this theory is really wrong is because of the character of Asmodean. He is timid and scared; he is always there to pick of the scrapes but never on the front lines. Do you really image timid Asmodean would be snide to Lanfear a Chosen very much stronger then him. Without the key to the male Choedan Kal in his hand Asmodean would run and never look back as soon as he recognize Lanfear; he would never interfere with her plan. Beside all the male Chosen knew they needed the key before the Choedan Kal was useful. Why would he give the stronger male chosen reason to think as they would say &#8220;that he was raising above himself&#8221; without being assure he would win. Like I said it just doesn&#8217;t fit his character. Good theory though. <br />


created: 2005-09-28 20:44:03
subject: <b>I disagree</b>
body:
This is solely because of one thing.  He was surprised that she had escaped the in undetected, had he known who she was (which I think asmo would have) then he would have known she could just channel and open a gateway.  I also don't think that Asmo being such a pansy would channel in front of Rand, He would realize that Rand could channel (I believe) or at least be cautious about who he channels around.<br /><br />I think it is much more likely that Lanfear channeled and pinched the serving girls arm to get out of there, and she just didn't like Caldevwin because he would more than likely start asking after her house, and other pieces of information that she would be unable to provide.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Everybody dies alone</font><p></p>


created: 2005-09-30 16:55:27
subject: <b>I disagree</b>
body:
This is an interesting theory, but I don't agree.  The two major reasons are that you ignore that all of Caldevwin's actions are also explained with the understanding of how the Great Game is played in Cairhien.  The second thing is that if Lanfear thought that Asmodean was there, she never would have taken off and left Rand there.


created: 2005-10-04 03:44:26
subject: <b>You all underestimate Asmodean</b>
body:
Asmodean is NOT a pansy. The info about him picking scraps and such is solely given to us by other Forsaken, who hardly can be said to be concerned over each others reputation. Remember: Asmodean was among the 13 FOREMOST of the Darkfriends during the War of the Shadow. He didn't earn his place from flattering the DO, he earned it by SKILL.<br /><br />As for hiding in corners, people work in different ways. I don't agree that Moghedien is a coward (at least most of the time), she is just realistic. She realizes when her chances are low, and runs instead of being killed. (Although she can be overly arrogant sometimes, which is why she was bettered by Nynaeve.) The so-called &quot;brave&quot; forsaken include i.e. Be'lal and Sammael, and just look where they are now.<br /><br />No, Asmodean is clever, even if he is one of the weakest forsaken. His plot even worked; had Rand been a tad slower in following him to Rhuidean, Asmo would have gotten the male access key, and history would have been rather different.<br /> <br />It would make perfect sense for him to take control over Cairhien, and more importantly, he would not be intimidated by Selene. Remember: She is intruding on HIS soil, and has reason to be afraid of him. She is completely unprepared, and have no way of knowing what kinds of traps he has woven.<br /><br />There are obstacles to the theory, but they are not insurmountable. The reason Caldevwin is angry that Selene escaped may be because he had woven something to sense a womans gateway, and maybe she found a way past it. <br /><br />But all in all I'm not really certain. Although there are some oddities, Caldevwin acts very much in accordance with The Great Game. I voted yes, though.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before,' Bokonon tells us. 'He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way.'</font><p></p>


created: 2006-03-08 18:11:04
subject: <b>Good Theory!</b>
body:
I like this one! I've also wondered were Asmodean were hiding before joining Rand, and Cairhien would make a lot of sense since that is one of the places were he could use his skills best.<br /><br />We also know that he was searching for the Choeden Kal, and it is a really interesting idea that he would be disguised as the captain, but don't we see him in other scenes as well? I don't remember what happened to him, just that he happened to appear more than once.<br /><br />However, I am quite sure that it was Lanfear who started the fire in the inn. If Asmodean would have channeled, Rand would probably have noticed (however untrained by tGH), and Lanfear had obvious motives since she was asked some not pleasant question about her whereabouts in Cairhien (if I'm not wrong.)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" />For the honor of J.R.R.Tolkien <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gandalf.gif" border="0" /> <br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /> Gambler, I am <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /><br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-purple.gif" border="0" /> Tharand, I am <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2006-11-22 11:51:51
subject: <b>Well</b>
body:
in the age of legend the As sedai  was capable of shielding their city against travalling in time of war to prvent imm&#233;diat invasion.<br /><br />So maybe Asmo wove somethin similar and lanfear escape anyway


created: 2007-08-23 20:11:46
subject: <b>Hm..</b>
body:
I'm not sure<br /><br />a lot of it makes SO much sense, but the few flaws are strong enough to put me in doubt..<br /><br />My only thing to add is in response to Alydar in his response to Shannow: Alydar said Lanfear would not be willing to leave Asmodean with Rand, but, i think she would be willing to for a few reasons:<br />1)she's not sure if Asmo knows that Rand is LTT<br />2)Even if Asmo did know, given his personality, he might be more likely just to stay out of Rand's way and continue with his plan.<br />these reasons with her other reasons listed in the theory would be enough to get her to leave.<br /><br />I think it's right, but even if not, Wonderfully done theory!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">-Sabin<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-09-18 08:59:44
subject: <b>Interesting...</b>
body:
I like the theory, however I think I may be one of few people who think that Jordan may have just created these &quot;bubbles of evil&quot; with the sole intention of having the heroes stumble over some part of themselves...so in this regard I agree with the &quot;personalised&quot; bubbles assiciated with Rand, Mat and Perrin...however, let us reflect back to when Mat and Rand were leaving Rhuidean. A bubble evil arose to attack them, but to what point and purpose? The only reason (patternly speaking <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" />) to this attack would to make sure Rand exited Rhuidean at dawn by hurrying him along. There can be no other explaination. This just lends to the idea that Jordan got bored at this point...&quot;hmm, they don't seem to be doing much at the moment, lets make a bubble happen!&quot;...sorry, your theory is well thought out, and I agree with parts of it, but I don't agree with it as a whole.


created: 2005-09-18 10:27:49
subject: <b>Sure</b>
body:
It makes sense to me. Though I agree with the above poster that it just seems like something he invented to add a plot twist here and there and make it interesting. We haven't seen much of them lately anyhow.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Check out my WoT(ish) fanfic! Tentatively entitled, Sum of All Worlds, join Scimitar the Dreadlord as he begins an epic journey throughout the Worlds!<br /><br />http://www.worldofamadman.com/viewtopic.php?t=1023<br />Four of twelve updates finished.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-09-18 11:05:05
subject: <b>Nah.</b>
body:
You make sense, esp. with the first 3 bubbles, but after that it falls away. And the relating to dreams is completly irrelevant. The dreams, IIRC, were caused by Issy... Correct me if I'm wrong. There is no relation between personality and the bubbles.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-09-18 12:01:03
subject: <b>Yay, theory posted!</b>
body:
Some replies:<br /><br /><b>Eltheriond</b><br /><br />Ah, the bubble in Rhuidean. I didn't include this one ( and a few others as well ) because, aside from making the theory too long, they aren't as obvious as the five main bubbles. Still, once you know what to look for, the point of least resistance can be found.<br /><br />Dust, you see, is often associated with times past and forgotten, where it settles in areas undisturbed by the feet of men. Clearly, Rhuidean fits this criteria, a city lost and forgotten in the midst of the Waste, where none may tread but future Clan Chiefs and Wise Ones. But how is this evil? Well, forgetting the past makes one blind to the future. Stubborness in forgetting the errors of the past. Ignorance.<br /><br /><b>Mika Hopessorrow</b><br /><br />Yes, the dreams were Ishamael's making, but at the time he was still partly sealed in the Bore. What i wanted to point out is that the strength of Shai'tan's prison seems to vary according to what is found in this world. Shayol Ghul is the where the barrier is thinnest, and that is where he Ishamael appears first. Then there are beacons of evil in this world, and that is where Ishamael appears next, to Darkfriends like Padan Fain. Finally he appears to Rand, Mat and Perrin. But as you can see from the second example, evil in <i>this</i> world makes it easier for Shai'tan to reach through. Likewise, it makes sense that his miasma breaks through in similar weak points, the darker parts of a thread.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>War must be, while we defend our lives against a destroyer who would devour all; but I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend</i><br />~Faramir</font><p></p>


created: 2005-09-18 13:57:04
subject: <b>liking it...</b>
body:
nice theory.<br /><br /><br />very well thought out and explained in short simple terms. Thumbs up from me!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> let the speedbart ride again upon the winds of time <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Made the second post on the new WoTMB2 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-09-18 14:14:48
subject: <b>Personalised?</b>
body:
How? Perrin was attacked by his axe, true. But it was just something that could be used by the bubble. It was something close to hand. It would have been boring if Perrin was attacked by a piece of sliced beef.<br />Same with Mat, he was playing cards. The cards had pictures on which attacked him. It wouldn't have been as interesting if a coin tried to lodge itself in Mat's throat.<br />Maybe there could be a significance with Rand's Mirrors, but again, it was an interesting way for a bubble to attack him. better to read than a feather from his pillow tickling him to death.<br />The same way a bubble of evil hit Rand and Mat outside Rhuidean, there was sand about. They formed creatures to attack them. Just an interesting and exciting way for the bubble to manifest intself.<br />With the army, everything was chucked about, from bedding to weapons. That didn't need to be that interesting because it happened to show that the Salidar AS are unorganised, don't trust each other and are ignorant and arrogant (thinking it was Forsaken). It was to show their weakness.<br />I reckon so anyway.


created: 2005-09-18 14:59:04
subject: <b>harrymonk , I don't truly see your point.</b>
body:
The series is also more inetresting following a Dragon Reborn than watching Rand herd sheep. I don't get where you are getting with this.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>War must be, while we defend our lives against a destroyer who would devour all; but I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend</i><br />~Faramir</font><p></p>


created: 2005-09-18 15:06:51
subject: <b>You just made my point</b>
body:
It WOULD be more interesting to read about the Dragon Reborn rather that Rand sitting on his hoop all day. That's why the story is about the Drangon Reborn and not someones hoop.<br />All I was saying that the first part of the theory about the bubbles being personalised is wrong. There (in my mind) is no personalisation with the bubbles.<br />It is more interesting about a flying axe, or pictures from playing cards being alive or reflections of yourself killing you so that is why they were written. No personalisation.


created: 2005-09-18 15:48:48
subject: <b>So the fact that I can easily trace the way they are personalised</b>
body:
in <i>each and every case</i> is nothing but a huge coincidence?<br /><br />Let me put it thsi way. Everything in <i>The Wheel of Time</i> is written that way because it's how RJ thought it would be most interesting. By your logic absolutely every theory is false because &quot;it's just more interesting to write.&quot; Asmodean wasn't murdered by anybody, it was just more interesting for him to be murdered, so every whodunnit theory is wrong. The One Power doesn't follow any rules, it simply does whatever RJ needs it to do at the time, so every One Power theory is wrong. Rand will spill his blood on Shayol Ghul in the manner that RJ wants, so every theory about it is wrong.<br /><br />You see, although partially true, <i>The Wheel of Time</i> was written in a way as to hold itself together. Most information tries to be concordant with previous information, so as to make the world more realistic. The same goes for the bubbles of evil. Even though they are written, like everything else in the books, to be interesting, that does not change the fact that they follow a few principles. Like being attracted to <i>ta'veren</i>. And as I demonstrated in this theory, by manifesting themselves through the points of greatest evil on this side of the Bore.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>War must be, while we defend our lives against a destroyer who would devour all; but I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend</i><br />~Faramir</font><p></p>


created: 2005-09-18 16:02:39
subject: <b>erm not really</b>
body:
I think I noticed that some of the things that happen in the series are integral to the plot and therefore needed. Asmodean was murdered. Fair point. But not just because it was interesting. He was murdered because<br />a)someone wanted to stop him teaching Rand and therefore being able to kick hoop<br />b)the Dark One was annoyed and wanted him killed as punishment<br />c)the Forsaken ordered it (or did it or whatever) to eliminate an opponent for the Naeblis title.<br />The One Power does have rules so not sure what you mean there.<br />The whole series is about prophecy, one man meeting his destiny. So the blood on shayol ghul is fairly important, whatever it may mean. The theories are not wrong about the blood, well, all but 1 are I guess. It's integral to the story.<br />Bubbles of evil are not really integral to the plot, but are needed to show that the evil the Dark One has can touch the world in different ways. Indeed, the Bubble of Evil at Salidar was needed in the plot to show the Rebel AS weakness.<br />However, the personalisation of the Bubbles aspect has no bearing on the plot. It did not need to be Perrin's axe, or mirrors or cards. What was needed was the bubbles to happen, not they way they happened.<br />So when you say that all theories are wrong, you are partially correct. The one you just made was indeed wrong.<br />All I was saying that the Bubbles in Tear are not personalised, not a coincidence either. They just happened that way.<br />I could be wrong though.


created: 2005-09-18 18:36:31
subject: <b>What do you mean, they're not necessary?</b>
body:
Forsaken personalities are not necessary. They could just be the big bad evil people who get killed after every two books. What's necessary about the One Power being split into five elements? Heck, most of the rules concerning One Power use are rather pointless and only of interest for theorists. Likewise, what importance is it how Ishamael managed to be there every milennia? And yet he was.<br /><br />Let's go further. What importance that Ebou Dari dresses have an oval cut across the breasts? What matter if Illianers shave their upper lips? What is the importance of <i>ji'e'toh</i>? There is none. And yet they exist anyway. You know why? Because they put depth into the world. They give the world a &quot;feel&quot; that is different from others.<br /><br />As for the bubbles of evil, we already know that they follow some rules, I have merely revealed another. The fact that this is consistent with every other recognised bubble of evil in the series gives it credence.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>War must be, while we defend our lives against a destroyer who would devour all; but I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend</i><br />~Faramir</font><p></p>


created: 2005-09-18 18:58:43
subject: <b>What's not necessary?</b>
body:
The bubbles of evil? I didn't day they were not necessary. Far from it, whilst I said they were not integral, I said they were needed. Just not the way they were expressed, the whole personalised attacks. The act was important as it shows how evil can touch the world, or shows us that the Rebels are clueless.<br />Of course Forsaken personalities are necessary. They are characters in the series. The way they think and act has a huge importance on the way the series progresses.They have to have personalities. I never said they didn't, nor did I imply that.<br />The One Power is the most important thing in the series, it drives the WoT universe and makes the world completely different from anything we know. Except Uri Geller, he's exceptional... The rules governing the One Power, like the 5 elements give us an understanding of it. It helps us understand how it works (kind of), adds diversity to a rich series in that some people are better with Earth or Fire than others for example.<br />Ishamael being freed is pretty important too, it sets him apart from the run-of-the-mill Forsaken. He is the anti-Rand so to speak. He needs to be special.<br />I agree with you whole-heartedly with you about the different diversities regarding fashion, shaving etc, it does add diversity and depth. I never said they were not important.<br />All I said was that the way you theorised the bubbles of evil being personalised into some kind of warped 7-sins idea is wrong. That you're reading too much into it. Perrin was attacked by his axe, as it was in the room and made a better story than being attacked by his socks. It doesn't represent violence and that's why it attacked him<br />Mat was attacked by the cards because they were present and a good story. Not because they represent Greed.<br />Rand was attacked by his reflection because it was cool, not because it represents vanity.<br />The Salidar bubble of evil was crucial in pointing out the weaknesses of the Rebels to wahtever character (Nynaeve?) was there. It did in no way represent sloth.<br />The bubbles of evil are needed in the plot for the reasons I gave above.<br />To be honest, i'm not sure where you're basing your arguement against me. Where did you get all that spiel about dresses and beards, or ji et toh? Or Forsaken personalities? Not sure why you think that I think that...<br />


created: 2005-09-18 19:34:33
subject: <b>I'm getting rather confused now.</b>
body:
Are you saying that you refuse to accept the theory, regardless of the evidence I've pointed out, because they could work just as well with less details?<br /><br />Because, even if you believe it is coincidence that every bubble of evil thus far has manifested itself accordingly with the strongest evil in the vicinity, the facts remain that they did so. I simply point out that there is a reason why.<br /><br />You say Perrin's axe was chosen because it was &quot;cooler&quot; than being attacked by, say, socks. But why not the hammer as well. In fact, why not his socks? In Salidar, they were attacked by broomsticks and bedsheets and chamber pots. But not Perrin. Likewise, Mat could have been attacked by his daggers, but instead he's attacked by playing cards, things that, like Perrin, are obviously related to the darker aspects of his character, yet you would name them coincidence. Tell me then, what is the difference between Mat and Perrin's situation and the Salidar Aes Sedai's? I gave a reasonable explanation, is all you have to oppose it &quot;Well, maybe it just happened that way&quot;?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>War must be, while we defend our lives against a destroyer who would devour all; but I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend</i><br />~Faramir</font><p></p>


created: 2005-09-18 21:06:03
subject: <b>You did tell us to &quot;Flame Away&quot;...</b>
body:
I'm rather amused that you are getting all defensive about people giving critique to your theory when you openly invited people to do so <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />Look, your theory is well thought out. Granted<br />Not everyone is going to agree with you. Granted<br />Don't try to force people to see things your way!<br />(BTW, as to you saying the &quot;sand in Rhuidean was evil&quot;...come on, it's SAND, not &quot;dust being evil because it shows man's ignorance of the past&quot;....seriously)


created: 2005-09-18 22:04:19
subject: <b>Think about it</b>
body:
This theroy makes alot of sence if you ignore the literal meanings of what happens, and concentrate on the metaphorical, which i think was what Fanatic-Templar was trying to say.<br />Giving the characters a chance to reveal and fight their weaknesses lets them grow as people and characters.<br />the bubble of evil in Salidar gave the AS etc a chance to fight their idleness and they realised that they needed to be organised etc and listen to advice when its given.(or they should have anyway, damn stubborn AS)<br /><br />Anyways, well done!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">The Wotmaniac currntly known as &quot;Taint Bearer&quot;<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <i>If you ever catch on fire, try to avoid looking in a mirror, because I bet that will really throw you into a panic.</i> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Came in 13th place in the Wotmania Hunt 2005 with 3790 points!<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-09-18 23:01:03
subject: <b>Question for Fanatic-Templar</b>
body:
First of all, this is an interesting theory, though I'm not sure if I agree with it.<br /><br />Anyway, in ACOS chapter 17 there is mentioned another bubble of evil, in Ebou Dar. &quot;A fog. I heard there was ... things ... in it. I heard people just disappeared. And some was found eaten, parts of them.&quot;<br /><br />This is similiar (perhaps identical) to the later fog bubble of evil. Can you explain this one in terms of your theory?<br />


created: 2005-09-19 06:13:33
subject: <b>Ockham's Razor</b>
body:
&quot;It is vain to do with more what can be done with less.&quot;<br />That is my point. <br /><br />It is ludicrous (in my mind, such that it is) to say that Perrin's axe represents violence and therefore it is evil. That is why the axe was used by the Bubble, that it is the point of least resistance.<br />That playing cards represents greed and therefore the playing cards represent evil. Or mirrors with vanity. Laughable that dust represents evil because it symbolises forgetting the past. That the Aes Sedai and the soldiers were attacked by anything to hand because they did not move earlier and are therefore evil through the act of sloth.<br />I see where you're coming from, but I totally disagree. The &quot;evidence&quot; you have pointed out is weak at best. Maybe an axe could represent violence. Slight possibility that cards could represent greed. Don't really see mirrors as vain (surely painting/pictures of yourself everywhere is more vain). Dust is certainly not about forgetting the past. As for the Salidar bubble, I think it was just used to highlight the Aes Sedai being afraid of everything like Nynaeve says in her rant, LoC (paperpack) page 384. Certainly not because they didn't move quick enough and therefore are clearly evil through sloth.<br /><br />In your last post, you even say that Mat could have been attacked with his daggers. Do daggers not represent violence as well? So the evil there, from your &quot;evidence&quot; would be greed AND violence. Why not be attacked by both. Or wine. Wine could represent as evil because it is addictive and ruinous and serves no purpose except to cause pleasure. Rand had Callandor in the room. That is a sword of sorts, so certainly is associated with evil more than an axe because a sword has no function other than to kill. It is more likely that Perrin's axe was chosen as he was holding the hammer before the bubble happened, so he had a weapon to defend himself when the axe flew towards his swede.<br /><br />Think about it. Is the &quot;evidence you pointed out&quot; rock solid? No. Does it have any strength in it? No. Is it backed up by other evidence. No. Is it all cirumstantial? Yes.<br />It is just not strong enough for me to agree with.


created: 2005-09-19 10:19:53
subject: <b>Yes, I did say flame away...</b>
body:
But i never intended to leave my work undefended. I'm not thinking that you are foolish for not seeing what I see, I am merely trying to precise some things, to make the rest more understandable. If you refuse to believe, well, I can't do anything about it.<br /><br />Quite simply, I don't believe that <i>five</i> coincidences, out of five main bubbles of evil, is possible. At some point, there's a connection. I don't have my books with me this week, so other replies ( like the one concerning an Ebou Dari bubble of evil ) will have to wait until Friday.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>War must be, while we defend our lives against a destroyer who would devour all; but I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend</i><br />~Faramir</font><p></p>


created: 2005-09-19 11:16:25
subject: <b>To Fanatic Templar and Harry Monk</b>
body:
I think that many parts of your ideas make sense, but neither of you are correct on the whole.  The first three can be seen more like a foreshadowing of things to come.  As for the rest...<br /><br />I think the non-tear bubbles of evil are mostly used through the series as a way to get people moving.  To a certain extent the Tear ones have a similar function in the story.  Take the following examples:<br /><br />Saldiar AS are sitting around and wasting time.  Despite many &quot;plans&quot; developing to get them moving, they still sit.  It would take a monumental something to get them moving.  Insert Bubble of Evil.  <br /><br />Rand and Mat are talking in Rhuidean.  Mat is kind of injured after hanging from a tree, and Rand just went through a great ordeal in the Rings.  By all logical thinking, they should spend some time recuperating, but the problem is that there's some prophecy which needs fulfilling.  Rand and Mat need a reason to leave Rhuidean.  Insert Bubble of Evil.  <br /><br />Perrin is sitting around in Tear doing a whole lot of not much.  He's kind of accepted that he can't get away from Rand, and in order to make it worthwhile, he needs to be shown that it is not safe to be near him.  Insert Bubble of Evil.  <br /><br />Here's where both of your arguements fall apart.  For the Tear BOE, To a certain extent, they're personalized (and must be or else the story makes no sense and is random).  On another level, at this point in the story, I don't think there's a strong arguement that Perrin is violent, Mat is greedy, and especially for Rand is vain.  The salidar sisters are not slothful and lazy, as much as they're afraid and unwilling to change.  <br /><br />However, for the first three at least, the idea of the bubbles isn't to make the story more interesting without adding purpose.  If it was, Mat could have been visiting an armament store and had axes flying at him and Perrin could have fallen into a hole.  That wouldn't add any depth to the character or the story, and the reader would think to themselves &quot;Man, that was pointless.&quot;  By having a personalized attack on any single Salidar sister, everyone would think &quot;She's not Prepared&quot; instead of having a blanket fear settle over the camp. They have a purpose and have been created that way, but not for the purpose of being a tie in to the seven deadly sins.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">http://www.green-machine.info<br />Making Money Online</font><p></p>


created: 2005-09-19 11:48:33
subject: <b>True</b>
body:
I can fully accept that the Bubbles of evil are used to get people moving, that makes sense. I did say in earlier posts that they were indeed needed, if not integral. The point I was arguing was that the way they were expressed was not in any particular way.<br /><br />Perrin's was an axe because the axe was available and made an interesting story, not because the axe &quot;represents the evil of violence&quot;, or the mirror &quot;the evil or vanity&quot; or cards &quot;the evil of greed&quot; and certainly dust representing &quot;the evil of ignorance&quot;. I can see no correlation between what Fanatic-Templar was saying, it was grasping at straws to make a loose comparison.<br /><br />The BOE were probably a way to speed the story along and make the characters move. I never disputed that. That's not what they theory was about.


created: 2005-09-19 18:40:15
subject: <b>I agree</b>
body:
Tho I'd like to add ad others have, I'm sure, that the attack on Salidar was the result of arrogance. After all, they were planning to face off agaist the Forsaken, and get attacked by simple clothes and utensils, etc. Quite a humourous passage.


created: 2005-09-20 11:46:05
subject: <b>listen</b>
body:
I think that we tend to forget that jordan is not only &quot;creating a world,&quot; he is also writing novels.  the bubbles of evil are most often simply literary devices - in the case of tear, they were an outward display of an inner struggle.  that was really the only time that the bubbles were truly necessary - the others are just when RJ needs some action to get people goin homey.  that's what i think anyway.  i feel like we, as readers, like to rationalize everything RJ does because we want it all to be real.  oh well.


created: 2005-09-20 12:38:16
subject: <b>My thoughts regarding the Tear bubbles of evil....</b>
body:
RJ seems to have taken the opportunity with this event, to drive home some of the inner turmoil of his three ta'veren. Here's the way I see it:<br /><br /><b>Perrin:</b> His long struggle to come to terms with his own peaceful nature, vs. the needs the world has of his violent side. He's no warrior at heart; his most desired position in life is to be a blacksmith working away at building/making things with his hammer, not destroying people/lives with an axe. <br /><br />Look at some of the things that have been said to Perrin over the course of the series, like Elyas; &quot;If you get to liking it too much, then it's time to throw it away.&quot;, or Ila; &quot;He was such a peaceful soul once, I think.&quot; or Verin; &quot;When will you put aside the axe and take up the hammer?&quot; (Pardon for paraphrasing from memory) <br /><br />All of these people recognize Perrin's own internal struggle, and even Faile has seen it. The attack by his own axe is a little display of the same confict.<br /><br /><b>Mat:</b> You must remember what cards attacked him, not the fact that they were cards. They were the rulers. &quot;I'm no lord!&quot;, is one of Mat's favorite sayings, right up there with &quot;I'm no hero!&quot;. Yet time after time, what do we see? Mat dressed up in lace and fine coats, rubbing elbows with powerful, influential characters, leading soldiers as well as nobles into battle, and rescuing damsels in distress. While he denies being a lord, he has lordlings and other nobles doing as he commands. And look who he is destined to marry, the future Empress of Seanchan. <br /><br />Not only that though, Mat has faced-off against several &quot;lords&quot; or &quot;rulers&quot; a few times as well. He has stood up to Siuan as Amyrlin, when she came to him with her plans to use him to blow the Horn of Valere when the time came. Then he finds out &quot;Lord Gaebril&quot; is planning to kill Elayne, Egwene and Nynaeve, and he makes it a personal bet to go against that plan and successfully helps foil one of the Forsaken's plots. He fights Lord Darlin, the future king of Tear, during the attack on the Stone. Since then, he has confronted: Egwene as Amyrlin, Tylin as queen, and now he's playing love-games with Tuon.<br /><br />What is a rulers job? To lead, be responsible, and to make wise decisions. Facing those three things appears to be Mat's struggle. (among others)<br /><br /><b>Rand:</b> His problems are multi-faceted, and the mirror images reflect this. People have been pushing, pulling and trying to get him to do as they wish from the outset. While many have tried to control him, he has had to learn to be his own man.  <br /><br />Rand has given himself over to fate, realizing that his life isn't really his to control. However, being himself is perhaps the one thing he has stubbornly refused to concede. &quot;If I must die, then I will die as myself&quot;, or &quot;I am Rand al Thor&quot;, or &quot;That was one battle he couldn't afford to lose. If he came down on the wrong side, Lews Therin might seize control, and Rand al'Thor would be nothing more than a voice riding around in the back of Lews Therin's head.&quot;<br /><br />Rand suffers from multiple personality syndrome. His struggle is to maintain his own identity.<br /> <br />The &quot;bubble of evil&quot; in Tear was unlike the others, (except for the one in Rhuidean), mostly because it was centered only on the boys, and no one else was really affected. RJ used a little allusion to point out internal flaws in our heroes. <br /><br />How does the evil of the DO attach itself to a thread of the Pattern and know how to use their inner turmoil against them? I don't really know, but the scene worked well for me just the same. <br /><br />I agree at least in theory to your conclusion, even if not with the whole idea.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2005-09-20 15:18:10
subject: <b>Rand's reflection battle bubble of evil</b>
body:
It seems to me that you and Light in the Night have Perrin and Mat right.  However, I feel that Rand's battle with his reflections has to do with the fact that he is the Dragon Reborn.  He is the current 'reflection' of a rebirth cycle that goes back many many cycles.  At the time, he is struggling to accept and even to eventually draw strength and knowledge from his 'past incarnations'.<br /><br />Just an observation...


created: 2005-09-20 16:56:20
subject: <b>A very nice theory</b>
body:
I feel that it is necessary to point something out those who voice dissent. The bubbles of evil attach themselves to a thread. This is not debatable, as it is said straight out by our dear friend Moiraine (the &quot;all-knowing&quot; one, of impossible knowledge). If a bubble is attached to a specific thread, it can then be said to be &quot;localized&quot; to said thread, and by definition, it is also then &quot;personalized&quot; to said thread. End of story.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> &quot;I'm the D.O.&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /> &quot;No I am&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rand.gif" border="0" /> &quot;KILL THEM!&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /> &quot;You can't possibly win!&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" />*smirks* &quot;Ya wanna make a bet???&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perrin.gif" border="0" /> *mutters* &quot;stupid axe&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/avi.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/min.gif" border="0" /> &quot;YOU CAN DO IT!&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2005-09-20 21:48:21
subject: <b>Bubbles in my view</b>
body:
I agree with the general feel of this theory, but I do not agree with the specific interpretation.<br /><br />I doubt very much that the bubbles are specifically homing in on the evil in the target, but rather the weakness. I think that the bubble manifests as something representing their personal struggles, and that they are (in the literary sense) meant to help the various targets overcome their weaknesses.<br /><br />In the cases of the Tear bubbles, Perrin's weakness is his love for Faile, and the personal struggle is his dislike of the axe - hence, the bubble targetted him and Faile using the axe. Mat's weakness is that he is too lax and likes gambling too much, and his personal struggle is with gambling and with nobility - note that it is the 'royal' cards that attack him. Rand's weakness is his self-image, and his personal struggle is with the various parts of himself - hence the reflections.<br /><br />When the bubble hits Salidar, irrespective of who it was targetting, it is the weakness of knowledge (they are too sure that they know things, even when they don't), and the struggle is with their own desire to move, and to stay.<br /><br />Although I can see explanations for the Rhuidean one and the living fog one, they are difficult to put to words at this time, so I will post them later, if I can find the right words.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Asmodean is alive and posing as Sammael!<br /><br />Sammael <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sammy.gif" border="0" /> is Sparticus.<br /><br />No, I'm Sparticus! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /> = <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />I'm Herid Fel Reborn!!!!! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shy.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-09-21 06:20:15
subject: <b>Good work Light in the Night</b>
body:
I can agree with the theory that the Tear BOEs COULD represent a battle within themselves, you make a good point.<br />But with the other BOEs, can anyone see the pattern of an internal personal struggle with them? The Rhuidean one, the one at the Rebel Aes Sedai one, the Fain one and the one mentioned above by Eric119 in Ebou Dar.<br />For a theory on the BOEs to be correct, surely there must be a uniform pattern that applies to ALL of them. I can't buy the &quot;evil&quot; pattern, as there is so much violence in the world, so much greed, so much arrogance and ignorance, so much &quot;evil&quot; then BOEs would be alot more numerous. It's too loose, too many 'but's.<br />So unless we can find a similarity that is true to them ALL, like a strugle with themselves with ALL BOEs, then there is no pattern.


created: 2005-09-26 19:41:43
subject: <b>Actually, harrymonk...</b>
body:
As to the BOE in Rhuidean, I somewhat agree with Fanatic-Templar about the dust representing the past, but not ignorance. The reason for the conflict was not only a plot device to ensure that Rand would emerge at dawn, it also represented Rand's current internal conflict... coming to terms with his Aiel heritage, starting on the path to true self-discovery. He now knows for sure that his whole life has been a lie, that's gotta cause some sort of emotional turmoil, eh? And no, I'm not forgetting Mat. The bubble was centered on Rand, yes, but it also affects Mat because of his mental time travelling. Remeber that Mat has just had all the holes in his memory filled with pieces of a 1,000 year time period. That's gotta be tough to assimilate, as we've seen. At this point Mat's probably also confused as to what's going on in his life. Did he really stand against that light-eating banner in defense of Manetheren? Was that him dancing with a Sea Folk Wavemistress? It gets to the point where even <i>he</i> has difficulty differentiating between the memories that are genuinely his, and the ones that were given to him.<br /><br />And as for your refusal to believe that the bubbles are personalized, remember that Moiraine said that they drift along the pattern until they <i>attach themselves to a thread</i>. Now, as we all know, a &quot;thread&quot; is someone's life. So in attaching itself to a person's life, the bubble does indeed become personalized, and is expressed in a way that is relevant to that person.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Of course you should fight fire with fire! You should fight EVERYTHING with fire!<br /><br />-Al'Gai, the Son of Battle<br />A.K.A. Anaro Ravenclaw,<br />Technomancer for the next Millenium <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/borg.gif" border="0" /><br />Revenant Bounty Hunter Extroidinaire <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-09-27 11:21:10
subject: <b>The personalisation....</b>
body:
....mentioned in this theory was to do with the assocation between the bubbles of evil and the percieved evil of everyday items.<br />I mentioned in a post above that SOME of the bubbles COULD be (not 100% convinced) associated with inner struggles. With your point about the sand one, can that be a personal struggle? Surely everything up to that point was a struggle, but as now Rand had it proven to him that he was Aiel, struggle over. Would the BOE not have come up before he had this proof? Like when he first new that Tam was not his father? Or he found out that he could be Aiel from the Stone Aiel? The struggles within the characters happen all the time, so why are BOEs not happening all the time?<br /><br />Rand, Mat and Perrin are in constant struggle with the act of killing women. Has there been a BOE inner struggle with that? Nynaeve and her channeling block, does that not count as an inner struggle? Wanting to channel but being afraid. Has there been a BOE for that struggle? Nearly every character has at least one inner struggle but there are relatively few BOEs.<br /><br />Personalisation can mean different things, in this case, it was the personalisation of the bubbles manefesting themselves through &quot;evil&quot; items, the personalisation you're talking about is a different one. If the personalisation you're talking about is specific to a thread, or life, why were all the people at Salidar camp attacked in the same way? That's not personalisation, as it wasn't specific to a person. Unless the BOE personalised itself in the same way for all the different people there.


created: 2005-10-02 17:56:03
subject: <b>Nice rebuttal...</b>
body:
Though I still believe the Bubbles in Tear were meant to represent the aspects that Fanatic-Templar laid out. An axe, especially the one Perrin carries, is most definitely a tool of violence. And it has been pointed out several times that Perrin abhors violence, and struggles with his desire for a peaceful existence, and the need to be an axe-wielding warrior to ensure that peaceful existence. Perrin knows that the violence is necessary, but that doesn't mean he likes it. The axe trying to kill him, and Faile, was clearly a metaphor for Perrin's feelings that the axe, and subsequently, violence, are destroying his life, and everything he holds dear.<br /><br />Mat's Bubble, the playing cards, was indeed meant to be a tongue-in-cheek shot at his inability to deal with his gambling problem (though I personally wouldn't call it a problem, always winning sounds good to me). The fact that it was the Rulers and not, say, the Jacks, or whatever they're called, is an allusion to Mat's dealings with nobility. Even though he knows he's merely a country-boy, he still finds himself rubbing elbows with the rich all the time, whether he wants to or not. And as we've seen, many nobles play their own versions of <i>Daes Dae'mar</i>, often with deadly results. How many nobles do you think have tried to use Mat in some way?<br /><br />As for Rand's, this could go either way. I like the premise of him dealing with his own vanity, but he's still knee-deep in his self-discovery arc at this point. The reflections could be manifestations of his ego, or they could have been the different selves that Rand saw within him, Rand al'Thor, The Dragon Reborn, possibly(at that time) the <i>Car'a'carn</i>, not to mention god knows who else(Lews Therin and the Other, perhaps?).<br /><br /><b>...as now Rand had it proven to him that he is Aiel, struggle over.</b><br /><br />Actually, internal struggle just beginning. Yes, it was just proven to him, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that the last twenty years have been nothing but pure BS. Is he Rand al'Thor, a tabac farmer from Emond's Field? Or is he the son of one of the greatest Aiel clan chiefs to ever live? He knows now that he is the latter, though he grew up as the former. Tell me, how would you feel if you just found out your whole life was a lie? Sure he knows his history, now, but how does that help the emotional scars he now has to bear? He's still struggling to come to terms with his true past, still trying to hold on to the false one, even though he knows it's false. The human brain is a complex machine, not easily understood. Perfectly rational people make idiotic choices for the sake of love, hope, or money.<br /><br /><b>Rand, Mat and Perrin are in a constant struggle with the act of killing women. Has there been a BOE inner struggle with that?</b><br /><br />No, there hasn't, but then, they've come to grips with that struggle all on their own. Rand and Mat have both been directly responsible for the death of a woman. We know that Rand is torturing himself with his list, so from an author's viewpoint, a BoE for him concerning this would be redundant.<br /><br />Mat has personally killed a woman, and ordered the death of another, though both times had he not, his own life would have ended, which would have been disastrous. Not only because it would mean the end of the Wheel, but also because Mat's the coolest character in the series. He also feels responsible for Tylin's death, even though there was really nothing he could do. There've been relatively few PoV's where Mat has discussed or thought about what happened, though we know a part of him died when he gave the order to fire. Mat does feel guilty, but not to the point where a Bubble would manifest itself by centering on the guilt.<br /><br />As for Perrin, I don't think he's been responsible for the death of women, other than the Shaido Maidens at Dumai's Wells, but again, he knows that was a necessity. If he didn't creat enough of a distraction for the Asha'man to make their debut, how do you think the battle would've turned out? Not in favour of Rand and Co. Perrin has been the cause of so much death, that male or female really make no difference anymore. I'm sure Perrin would argue that point, but only because he doesn't see what the readers do.<br /><br /><b>If the personalization you're talking about is specific to a thread, or life, why were all the people at Salidar camp attacked the same way?</b><br /><br />Because all of their threads are entwined, woven together, reaching toward a common goal, from the lowest novice, to Romanda and Lelaine, the unity of the White Tower. They all want the same thing, and are working togethr to achieve it. Would you not say that it's reasonable to believe their threads are entwined? No? Well how about <i>tam'maral'aillen</i>(sp?)? The Web of Destiny? The &quot;whirlpool effect&quot; created by the boys? As readers, we know that Mat's going to be involved with the &quot;Rebels&quot;, and thanks to a prophetic dream from Egwene, as well as a Foretelling from Elaida, we know that Rand is gonna have a monumental confrontation with the Amyrlin, be it Egwene or Elaida, we have yet to see. This will most likely take place either near the end of KoD, or somewhere near the early middle of Book 12, but will need plenty of build-up, hence, drawing all the threads necessary together.<br /><br />As for Nynaeve's block, she overcame that herself. If there would be a BoE for her, it would probably be centered around her self-doubt and cowardice.<br /><br />Yes, nearly every chaacter has had some sort of internal struggle, but are these people really important enough to RJ for him to not only come up with a Bubble for each, but tailor it to that specific character and take the time to write it out, proof-read it, edit it, write it again, and then finally commit it to the book? I don't think so.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Of course you should fight fire with fire! You should fight EVERYTHING with fire!<br /><br />-Al'Gai, the Son of Battle<br />A.K.A. Anaro Ravenclaw,<br />Technomancer for the next Millenium <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/borg.gif" border="0" /><br />Revenant Bounty Hunter Extroidinaire <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-10-03 15:19:18
subject: <b>This is going on too long!! lol</b>
body:
Perrin.<br />As stated earlier, I could see that this BOE COULD represent a battle with himself over an inner struggle with his necessary violence. However, I don't believe the axe was chosen because it is &quot;the point of least resistance&quot; as &quot;evil attracts evil&quot; or whatever way that was heading. Maybe the axe was chosen as that is ONE of Perrin's inner struggles. However, i'm not entirely convinced.<br /><br />Mat.<br />He was attacked by the playing cards. I don't believe they were chosen as they were the &quot;point of least resistance&quot; through the &quot;evil of gambling&quot;. Maybe the card's faces, the Rulers, were used to represent his inner fight with socialising and becoming a noble (which he hates) or his fight with gambling. However, I see it as he needed money to escape, the Rulers were the highest hand (as any arrogant noble would have it) which would have ensured a big fat purse. If the highest hand had been a Royal Flush, then he would have been attacked by an Ace, King, Queen, Jack and a 10. Would be quite surreal though, not sure how that would work. Lol. Easier and better to read about a fight with humanised cards.<br /><br />Rand.<br />This could be a good inner struggle, certainly would be a more relevant than the sand one. He is still struggling with himself at this point, and the use of the mirrors physically shows that struggle with different selves, rather than mishapen lumps of sand creature things. Certainly not representing the &quot;evil of vanity&quot; or the &quot;point of least resistance&quot;. It was a very good piece of writing. This is the best (and in my view) only acceptable piece of proof of inner struggle.<br /><br />Sand.<br />As mentioned above, I think the mirrors would have been a more relevant way of showing inner struggles. Enough said really. There is no way I can accept sand/dust as being evil and &quot;point of least resistance&quot;. I think the visions of his heritage from Rhuidean were the last nail in the coffin. He's had proof of &quot;twice marked&quot; with the herons, and the fall of the Stone and even channeling. I think he was still trying to find a way out of being the Dragon Reborn before Rhuidean. But the visions he saw and the fact he was marked again killed off any doubts. He accepts what he is and has more of a plan, showing (in my view) that he is getting on with it. No point being a woolheaded sheeplover and struggling. Accept it and move on. Struggle over. Emond's fielders are notorious for that kind of thing.<br /><br />Women.<br />The bane of men everywhere, especially if you kill them. I don't think that they have come to grips with that struggle. Can't be bothered to find quotes, I know it's bad form and all that, but there are enough about to know they're there. Mat was recounting his deeds, &quot;the light burn him forever&quot; was the quote I remember about his reference to killing a woman (book 10, maybe 9), which was far stronger than killing men directly in combat or indirectly through his orders or actions. The fact that Perrin thinks of Dumai's Wells as doing a bit of hedge trimming shows that he still has trouble with killing women (and men admittedly). And Rand's list of dead women shows that he is far from over it. Clearly none of them are over it, even though it was a necessity. And as you say, it would be redundant for RJ to write about them, but if there is a link/rule between inner struggles and BOEs then he would have to. Although he writes the rules, he cannot pick and choose which to follow. Therefore he would have to have some more BOEs.<br /><br />Camp Salidar.<br />True, they are all linked together in a way. But do they all have the same goals? Not really. Aes Sedai want to reunite the Tower (equally to get rid of Elaida). Accepted may want the same as Aes Sedai, but they probably just want to be Aes Sedai more than anything. Novices want to be Aes Sedai, I don't think they really care which Aes Sedai. The soldiers couldn't care less about the Tower, men that do are rarer than rocking horse faeces. Most of them joined because they thought that they were going to fight the Band, not recapture the Tower. All they care about is getting paid and having a full belly. I'm sure they'd rather not fight. So although they are heading in the same direction, the different groups have different reasons. Still, since they are heading towards the same goal, they could be said to be entwined. As for T..Tam... Tam'mara...Web of Destiny, surely that in itself encompases most things in the world. At some point or another, everyone and everything can be linked in some way to the Boy's ta'veren-ness and indeed the all-encompassing Web of Destiny (since it is everthing). It is not exclusive to the Salidar Camp which means that there should be more BOEs happening than there is.<br /><br />Nynaeve.<br />You said yourself there was an inner struggle. So why did a BOE not appear? If her struggle with Channeling Block did not cause one, why did her cowardice not cause one? Or Elayne's? Or Aviendha's? Most characters, especially the female think they are cowards. Where are the BOEs for them?<br /><br />RJ being lazy.<br />True. Why bother writing about BOEs for each character? This shows that there isn't a link between struggles and BOEs, or if there is, it's a very weak one as they are not important enough to write about. Equally, there is so much &quot;evil&quot; (which is pretty much subjective, not black and white) that BOEs should happen loads. But since they don't, can you say there is a proper link.<br /><br />I know this arguement has been bouncing back and forth for weeks and i'm sorry. But to say there is a link, I think is wrong. With the original &quot;least resistance&quot; theory, the &quot;evidence&quot; provided is too weak and flimsy. Just not solid enough, link is tenuous at best. The &quot;inner struggle&quot; theory has too many exceptions, as I said above and in earlier posts. For a proven link to exist (for me), there can be no exceptions. Or in the least, very few exceptions. There are too many &quot;if&quot;s, &quot;but&quot;s and &quot;except when&quot;s. Too many inconsistancies.<br /><br />Of course, this is my view and I could be completely wrong. But from what i've read, there is no unifying truth.<br /><br /><br />


created: 2005-10-04 15:32:25
subject: <b>Way to go harrymonk</b>
body:
You seem to have swayed me on this one. I still find some relevance in a lot of Fanatic-Templar's points, though you are right about the lack of evidence. Although, something you said still bothers me...<br /><br /><b>Equally, there is so much &quot;evil&quot;, that BoE's should happen loads. But since they don't, can you say there is a proper link.</b><br /><br />Actually, BoE's do happen a lot, they're just not described like the ones that happen to the main characters. Not quite sure which book they're all in, though I remember reading testimony from minor characters about &quot;monsters and Shadowspawn appearing out of thin air&quot;. Now, true, it's possible that this is just one of the Chosen messing with people and sending Trollocs and whatnot through gateways, though there was never any mention of &quot;holes in the air&quot;. There were some other ones, though my memory's a little fuzzy. I should probably lay off the pot. Nah. I could go re-read the series, but I think I'll wait a week and a half first. Gotta read KoD. Though I may re-read the last chapter of CoT, just to refresh the story a little.<br /><br />Anyways, just to say it again, good work on changing my mind, harrymonk, it doesn't happen very often.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Of course you should fight fire with fire! You should fight EVERYTHING with fire!<br /><br />-Al'Gai, the Son of Battle<br />A.K.A. Anaro Ravenclaw,<br />Technomancer for the next Millenium <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/borg.gif" border="0" /><br />Revenant Bounty Hunter Extroidinaire <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-10-05 20:21:22
subject: <b>Good, but here's my take</b>
body:
The idea of the mechanics of the BOEs that you lay out is good, but not quite how I see them.  I'm going to use a rough explanation here, so please bear with me.<br /><br />Imagine the DO sitting next to the pattern with a big bottle of magic bubbles.  He gets bored and decides to take out the wand and blow a few bubbles of evil to mess with some people.  The bubbles float along the pattern, minding their own business until one of a few things happens.<br /><br />First, if a bubble attaches itself to a thread in the pattern, it personalizes its own evil to the thread, and as Moiraine said, the bubbles (like almost everything else in the pattern) are drawn to ta'veren.  This personalization could very well be what 'evil' is strongest in them at that time, but I find it more likely that when the BOE attaches itself to a thread, it finds that person's greatest weakness.  To Perrin, it was his struggle with his axe and if he wanted to continue to use it, and his need to protect Faile.  To Mat, it was the idea that one of the reasons he wouldn't leave Tear was because (in his mind) he could make much more money gambling with the lordlings, but he wanted to leave.  To Rand, he was battling with who he thought he was and what people wanted him to be and was having problems coming to grips with how he could be who everyone wanted and still be himself.<br /><br />Second, the bubble very well might not find a thread to attach itself to.  Imagine what happens when you blow a bubble and it pops next to your shirt.  You get soapy water on your shirt, right?  Now figure the BOE is floating over the pattern.  When it pops, it sprays the surrounding pattern with the evil it was made of, causing general chaos rather than a more personalized attack.  For a few examples, think of Salidar.  All of those people interacting with each other (at least how I imagine the pattern's weave) means that the pattern has woven their threads together, at least for that point in time, so all of the people at Salidar (their threads) were close together.  When the bubble floated over them, it popped, causing chaos to the people that were splashed with the evil soapy water.  For the Rhuidean BOE, the bubble could have been drawn to the ta'veren (like Moiraine said it would) but didn't have time to attach to Rand or Mat or both before it popped, causing chaos with whatever it could, and being in the middle of the desert while coming out of Rhuidean, sand and dust was the most abundant thing that the evil could throw at them.<br /><br />As to the idea that it's vain to do more when you could do less is a defeatest's theory.  RJ is creating a world here, and if he settled for the path of least resistence (i.e. writing things because they sound cool), we wouldn't have a major fantasy epic here.  I doubt his works would have gotten published.  Writers write what they do for a reason.  Everything has its purpose.  Not to say that he doesn't use these to spice things up every once in a while (this IS a fictional world, meant for our reading entertainment), but he does them in such a way that doesn't leave us all scratching our heads wondering, &quot;Now what the heck was the point of that?&quot;<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Test MEEEE! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shakefist.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />I wanna be an asha'man toooooooo! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shakefist.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-10-06 00:00:43
subject: <b>close but no tabac</b>
body:
First, the fog that attacked everyone was similar to Mashadar becasue it WAS Mashadar, released through Fain/Mordeth.<br /><br />Second, there have been plenty of instances of the bubbles hapening to regular, ordinary people.  Remember all of the rumors about nightmares stepping out of the air, etc.?<br /><br />It seems more likely that the bubbles have some different manifestations, but they seem to use something nearby that's dangerous.  Rand had to fight multiple Rands that stepped out of the mirrors.  Perrin had to deal with a possessed battle axe.  Mat had playing cards come to life.  When Salidar got hit, EVERYTHING got used, some more effectively than others.<br /><br />Maybe the difference in the personal touch is being taveren.


created: 2005-10-06 09:03:09
subject: <b>I stick to my guns</b>
body:
There are too many inconsistancies for me to agree with what you're trying to point out. I can see how some people may think the Boy's BOEs were a struggle with weakness, as I mentioned above. But for BOEs to have a pattern, there needs to be....a pattern. With very few, or better yet, no exceptions.<br /><br />There is some weakness involved with the Boy's, what was the weakness is Salidar? Or Rhuidean? Or that possible one in Ebou Dar (aCoS 17)? Or the weakness in the Mashadar-esque one (if it was one)?<br /><br />What about the other characters' weaknesses? Pretty much every character has a major weakness or struggle. So if BOEs happen at points of weakness, where are they all? They don't happen exclusively to ta'verens, we've seen that.<br /><br />As for your splash from the bursting bubble, interesting idea, but it doesn't add to a universal truth that unites all BOEs together.<br /><br />What is the common factor? I can't see one. Maybe each BOE has its own purpose, its own need, which is why RJ wrote them in. To say that he wrote them in with a pattern/law to link them together is where my quote (&quot;it is vain to do with more what can be done with less&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> comes in. Why try to fit a pattern to somewhere that doesn't need or have one? I never said RJ didn't have a reason for writing them other than for interest.<br /><br />Give me something that can link them all together.


created: 2005-10-06 23:02:09
subject: <b>Humorous</b>
body:
I know who killed Asmodean!!!!!<br /><br />It was..... A bubble of evil :-)<br /><br />(It would make sense that a bubble of evil would kill a major character somewhere along the line)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Asmodean is alive and posing as Sammael!<br /><br />Sammael <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sammy.gif" border="0" /> is Sparticus.<br /><br />No, I'm Sparticus! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /> = <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />I'm Herid Fel Reborn!!!!! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shy.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-10-09 04:04:46
subject: <b>The link</b>
body:
The evil in the bubbles from the boys (cards, axe, images) were a reflection of their greatest weakness at that point because the bubble had a chance to attach itself to their threads.  The only link in how it worked between those and the others (Salidar, Rhuidean, etc.) is the fact that it was a BOE that caused the chaos.  I'll elaborate.<br /><br />The reason that the BOEs with the boys 'attacked' using their greatest weakness (outside of RJ's writing techniques) was because they were able to attach themselves to the boys' threads and be personalized to the victims.  Alternatively, the one in Salidar was just general chaos because the BOE hadn't had a chance to personalize to one person/group of people and alter the attack as such.  This also brings into the idea of the SIZE of the bubble, which can affect the number of people involved, but I'm not going to get into that right now.  I'm going to try to keep it simple.<br /><br />The reason that a BOE doesn't pop up when a character is battling a weakness (and lets face it, everyone has weaknesses) is that the DO just hasn't been 'playing with his bubbles'.  A BOE doesn't just manifest itself wherever and whenever it wants, and they aren't triggered by the actions of humans.  There isn't an unlimited number of these floating along the pattern.  Besides, reading about another BOE every 20 pages wouldn't help the plot progression, and we'd be looking at a 20-30 book series instead of a 12-13 series.<br /><br />In the literary sense, yes, RJ DOES throw these in to 'motivate' his characters and spice up the writing, but that doesn't mean that he hasn't set up a system.  Doing so would allow him to show consistency in his writing.  An extra day or two setting up a system would more than likely save him weeks and months in the course of writing the entire series trying to figure out how he would fit a BOE into the story right.<br /><br />And harrymonk, I misread your statement about the futility of doing more when you could do less, apologies for anything I may have said against it.  I'm enjoying this discussion and really don't want to see it turn into a flame war. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Test MEEEE! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shakefist.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />I wanna be an asha'man toooooooo! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shakefist.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-10-09 15:12:25
subject: <b>Fair enough</b>
body:
Some good points there. But where is the link? Did I miss something?<br />I'm enjoying this discussion too, no offense taken at any point so far, no worries. I love a good mass debate.


created: 2005-10-22 21:52:41
subject: <b>So this theory goes down the drain.</b>
body:
Without going into specifics, <i>Knife of Dreams</i> simply has too many, and too monumental bubbles of evil to fit in with the pattern uncovered in the earlier books.<br /><br />Ah well, better luck next time.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>War must be, while we defend our lives against a destroyer who would devour all; but I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend</i><br />~Faramir</font><p></p>


created: 2009-02-04 04:40:45
subject: <b>Rands' issues</b>
body:
Rand's issue, from acknowledging himself the Dragon Reborn down to KoD as well as the primary focus of his brand of taint-induced madness, is that he is very much afraid of being taken over by his memories as Lews Therin. He is afraid that once he allows himself to accept Lews Therin's memories as part of him, it will allow LTT to take him over. The voice he starts hearing is actually his subconscious trying to compartmentalise LTT away from Rand.<br />This fear is given shape in his first bubble of evil. He was convinced that whichever reflection won, it would not be him. Ironically the solution was to simply accept them back into himself. A portent of how he should deal with Lews Therin's voice? Maybe.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Is this in the Old Tongue?<br />&quot;Bah weep graaagnah wheep ni ni bong!&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2005-09-21 05:13:07
subject: <b>the eyes let u down i think</b>
body:
hey<br /><br />great theory by the way. i totaly agree with u on the idea of the hand being taken away can improve his speed and effectiveness.<br /><br />my only problem is the eyesight. even if he were to establish his other senses to the highest degree, hearing especially, he still won't be able to know wer to channel at, only a general direction. its not lyk he is a bat, and able to use sonar. wen rand was on the chest, the only thing he cud see was the chest, and thus cud blow that away. he didnt know wat it was lyk outside, and cudnt affect wat was outside, because he cud not see. <br />the eyseight is integral to the channeler, the hand is not.<br />


created: 2005-09-21 05:44:10
subject: <b>i like it</b>
body:
except for the eyes bit. there was an aes sedai who had a block of where she couldn't channel with her eyes open, which severely restricted her skill...i think it was tarna<br /><br />anyway, i like the idea behind it, it certainly has merit<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">idealism not pragmatism</font><p></p>


created: 2005-09-21 14:50:44
subject: <b>power vision</b>
body:
he might be able to make up a way to see like a bat by shooting some weave out like sonar.  however, unless its some form of wound that cannot heal i think that he would rather get his eyesight back then spending the time to grow accustomed to channeling without it.


created: 2005-09-21 15:23:02
subject: <b>Sight and channeling</b>
body:
Interesting idea, if purely speculative.  In reply to the first comment, it is possible to affect things which you cannot see, it just takes a bit of skill.  Remember when Nynaeve uses her well to heal Rand and Lan while they are imprisoned in Farm Madding.  She could not see them, nor did she have any idea of their location in relation to herself, unless Min told her (I can't remember).  I hope to see this type of thing again in a fighting context.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Funny thing about weekends when you're unemployed, they don't mean quite so much...except you get to hang out with your working friends.&quot;<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-09-21 16:43:03
subject: <b>The Hand Part is good. The eyes...</b>
body:
...I don't like.  I think that were he to use anything like the example you used, he'd kill everything and everyone, including his allies.  <br /><br />Also, will he have enough time to learn how to use his senses better before TG?  I would presume that that takes an extremely long time to learn, having to relearn how to do EVERYTHING.  I don't know, so that's speculation.  I guess he could sense people with the void or something, but I'm not so sure I like this.  <br /><br />I've always thought that perhaps the blindness has something to do with something he can see but won't accept, despite the evidence.  Or something everyone else sees, but not himself.  Not sure on that, but that was always my interpretation.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">http://www.green-machine.info<br />Making Money Online</font><p></p>


created: 2005-09-21 17:22:39
subject: <b>Sweet Theory</b>
body:
I like the concept of the theory. It's great, but I don't agree. You see, Rand uses very few hand gestures except when he's aiming something at someone.<br /><br />Nice though <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">A One Power researcher<br />Defender of Lanfear<br />Grand Ninja-Nae'blis to be feared <br />Original Warder to Isa <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br />New Warder to Nossie <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />Toy to Seriana <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/winky.gif" border="0" /><br />Mystified by a Fan <br />Bonded Phelix - I was young, it happened so fast.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-09-21 17:44:29
subject: <b>Blindness</b>
body:
In reply to the last comment.  I can completely understand your take on Rand's &quot;blindness&quot; as a metaphor for stubborness, but there are several references to the Dark One, eyes, anbd blindness which make me think it might have a more literal meaning. <br />1.) Of course, the image of the Fisher as a blind beggar<br />2.) An Aiel term for the Dark One: Sightblinder. They also call him LeafBlighter which is true in a lteral sense.<br />3.) Egeanin and probably other Seanchan associate the Dark One with blindness. In WH she she asks herself in so many words &quot;What would happen next? Would the Dark One be released and come to steal her eyes&quot; It has the ring of a saying or legend.<br />4.) Ishmael's eyes of fire and the saa. Plainly the True Power has some effect on the eyes.  Perhaps this is an unintentional reflection of what the Dark One wishes to do or is destined to do to Rand. After all, the True Power is drawn directly from the Dark One. We see what happens when you use it, what happens when it is used against you?<br /><br />Overall, to many suggestions that Rand's blindness might be literal for me to accept the metaphorical explanation.   <br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Funny thing about weekends when you're unemployed, they don't mean quite so much...except you get to hang out with your working friends.&quot;<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-09-21 20:56:22
subject: <b>never thought of this before</b>
body:
but if Rand couldn't see, he could still link with a woman, draw on saidin, and the unit--say he and Avi or He Avi and Elayneor Nynaeve with avi or Nynaeve directing the flows would be a very, very powerful unit.<br /><br />Otherwise I don't see how he could effectively channel in other than restricted circumstances.<br /><br />If there is a literal blindness, my bet is that it will be temporary.


created: 2005-09-22 07:56:11
subject: <b>Theory withing Theory withing Theory...</b>
body:
I can tend to agree with Rand loosing a hand. I believe it is literate and not abstract like loosing the Band (and Mat with it), but REALLY loosing his hand.<br />Secondly, what if the Fisher peice isn't blind? But merely blindfolded? Perhaps chanelling that much of the One Power while cleansing Saidin temporerily blinded him, like Mat in tEotW.<br />Just a few thoughts.


created: 2005-09-22 12:10:43
subject: <b>Thanks for the feedback...</b>
body:
...but I warned you the eyesight part was wild speculation didn't I <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> At least i didn't invent a cheesy neo equivalent power vision <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Im not sure if I believe any of what I have written either, it was more of a &quot;what if&quot; theory. I also happen to be of the opinion that the fisher's bandage refers to Rand's ignorance and metaphorical blindness, but many don't and since either could be true I thought it would be interesting to see how Rand could deal with blindness and still stand a chance at Tarmon Gai'don.<br /><br />Finally i would like to thank you all for taking the time to read and reply to my theory. This was the first one i actually got accepted by the powers that be and Noobs like me really appreciate feedback and constructive critiscism like this, since it helps us become less Nooblike next time,<br /><br />Thanks again, thespeedbart.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> let the speedbart ride again upon the winds of time <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Made the second post on the new WoTMB2 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-09-22 13:22:43
subject: <b>Totally disagree with the blind theory</b>
body:
Here is quote from LoC, it's when Rand was in the chest and has just broken the shield:<br /><br />&quot;Aside from that, he still could only channel where he could see, and all he could see, dimly, was the inside of the chest, what he could glimpse of it with his head forced between his knees. Before he even finished with the fists of Spirit, he channeled Air. The chest exploded away from him with a loud boom.&quot;<br /><br />It was stated several times in the book that you could  channel something only if you can see it.<br /><br />That's why Rand was needed a big spy-glasses in the battle of Cairhien, for example.<br />


created: 2005-09-22 13:36:53
subject: <b>Reply to last</b>
body:
How did Nynaeve heal Lan and Rand while they were in the cells in Far Madding?  We know she did it, if you disagree, review the relevant chapter at the end of the Winter's Heart.  We should all realize by now that just because an Aes Sedai, or a Forsaken for that matter, believes something is impossible does not make it true.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Funny thing about weekends when you're unemployed, they don't mean quite so much...except you get to hang out with your working friends.&quot;<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-09-22 13:38:47
subject: <b>Reply to last</b>
body:
Nynaeve could Heal them because she saw them. She was in a company of the guards. And if you think guards are going blind to visit their prisoners - ok then.


created: 2005-09-22 18:37:31
subject: <b>Don't think so</b>
body:
Rand was taught to weave by Asmo. Thus he leanred how to form the weave used in the AoL. AoL channelers did not use hand gestures to weave flows.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">The Great Gonzales<br />Captain of the DF Rebellion against Moridin<br />Demandred for Nae'blis!</font><p></p>


created: 2005-09-22 20:01:04
subject: <b>hand gestures</b>
body:
the only hand gesture i remember rand using is balefire but it seems that everyone even the AoL channelers use hand gestures for that.


created: 2005-09-23 18:13:43
subject: <b>Reply to last: RE</b>
body:
My apologies to Skeeve. I just reread section where Nynaeve heals Rand and Lan in Far Madding several times and I'm not longer so certain of my interpretation.  I guess I had always assumed that when Nynaeve healed her friends, she did it while she was still in the Hall of Councils, because Cadsuane notes that Nynaeve held onto the power after the confrontation with the Far Madding rulers.  Hence the smile on Rand's face when the guards appeared to release him, he was already healed.  However, I suppose it is possible that she held onto the power and then healed the two after they were released.  However, if this were the case, I would expect her to release the power in between these two events so as not to drain her well (as Cadsuane notes) Still, she might have held on just because of the fact that she was in Far Madding.  I don't know.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Funny thing about weekends when you're unemployed, they don't mean quite so much...except you get to hang out with your working friends.&quot;<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-09-25 07:29:50
subject: <b>the blindness</b>
body:
hey guys, i realised the blindness theory is entirely plausible. in book 6 semirhage was working on cabriana and said quote:<br />&quot;Working on something you could not see was a difficult task, even this close, but she was as knowledgeable about the human body as anyone ever had been.&quot; Threads Woven of Shadow pg 189, Lord of Chaos.<br /><br />this quote clearly proves the point that you can work on something you cant see, if difficult, from the point of the Forsaken. so although this theory is unlikely, it is still plausible.<br /><br />however rand would hav to know exactly wer everything is, which is very difficult. so mayb it is still possible, if not probable.<br /><br />some food for thought


created: 2005-09-26 10:15:32
subject: <b>Re: food for thought</b>
body:
The Semirhage scene describes her channeling at parts of the brain.<br /><br />The 'thing' she can't see is the object she channels at (the brain..).<br /><br />Channeling is described as 'weaving flows' and can be as intricate as embroidery.<br />It is the weaving thats virtually impossible to realise without looking. Not directing weaved-flows at a target you can't see.


created: 2005-09-26 20:12:20
subject: <b>The blindness is literal...</b>
body:
I like what you've come up with, speedbart. I agree that Rand will go blind, and this will in effect, turn him into the ultimate weapon of the Light. Now to shoot down some nay-sayers...<br /><br /><b>Alydar</b>: &quot;will he have enough time to learn hot to use his senses better before TG? I would presume that that takes an extremely long time to learn,&quot;<br /><br />So does becoming a Blademaster, but Rand managed that in a little under a year.<br /><br /><b>Skeeve The Great</b>: &quot;Aside from that, he still could only channel where he could see,&quot;<br /><br />I'll give you that qoute again, with a bit of added emphasis, and a nice little quote from Semirhage. &quot;Aside from that, he <i>still</i> could only channel where he could see,&quot;, and from Semi: &quot;Working on something you could not see was a difficult task, even this close,&quot;<br /><br /><b>Meradin32</b>: &quot;It's the weaving that's virtually impossible to realize without looking.&quot;<br /><br />Can't remember, possibly another theory, but I do remember reading something about a sister who had a block, specifically, <i>she could not channel with her eyes open</i>. You don't need to be able to see to weave a flow, because you can see it in your mind's eye. So long as a channeler can tell one flow from another, they should literally be able to channel with their eyes closed, with a bit of practice.<br /><br />And now, to answer the one question left, how would Rand be able to know where to direct the flows? Simple, the <i>ko'di</i>. The Oneness. The Void. Whatever you want to call it. Recall what Lanfear said when she learned Rand used it. &quot;Wrap yourself up in it, remain in it at all times, and you will discover uses for it you never dreamed of.&quot; Recall the prologue to KoD, the sword fight between Galad and Valda, Galad envelopes himself in the Void, and suddenly <i>he is one with his entire surroundings</i>. He can sense the men behind him, feel the flies buzzing around <i>ten paces away</i>, hear them as if they were right at his ear. And presumably, he only uses it for practice and battle. Now if Rand were to remain centered in the <i>ko'di</i> from the moment he wakes to the moment he sleeps, and is constantly linked to <i>saidin</i>(which as we all know, already amplifies one's senses), it's quite feasible that he would know the exact location of everything around him within a 100 metre radius, or more.<br /><br />Well, that's the end of that chapter.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Of course you should fight fire with fire! You should fight EVERYTHING with fire!<br /><br />-Al'Gai, the Son of Battle<br />A.K.A. Anaro Ravenclaw,<br />Technomancer for the next Millenium <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/borg.gif" border="0" /><br />Revenant Bounty Hunter Extroidinaire <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-09-27 09:02:57
subject: <b>Reply to last</b>
body:
Meradin32: &quot;It's the weaving that's virtually impossible to realize without looking.&quot;<br /><br />Can't remember, possibly another theory, but I do remember reading something about a sister who had a block, specifically, she could not channel with her eyes open. You don't need to be able to see to weave a flow, because you can see it in your mind's eye. So long as a channeler can tell one flow from another, they should literally be able to channel with their eyes closed, with a bit of practice.<br /><br />No, it is not true. That sister (Tarna) could only touch the Source with closed eyes. And it is impossible to see the flows in your mind's eye.<br />Quote: &quot;The hours I spent howling and weeping before I could find saidar without my eyes shut tight; you cannot weave if you cannot see the flows. I understand Theodrin is using gentler methods with you.&quot; (LoC, Ch. 13)<br />Another quote: &quot;She could not tell what they were doing, not without seeing the flows, but by the same token, they had to see the flows to weave them.&quot; (Loc, Ch. 25)<br />


created: 2005-09-29 02:48:52
subject: <b>Uhhh...</b>
body:
I agree with the hand, but have to disagree with the eyes. You say that if blind, Rand would be able to attack and defend to a greater degree? Tell me, how does he identify the flows/weaves that are being thrown at him if he doesn't see them? I doubt he can taste/smell/touch/hear them. And with the whole Nynaeve healing in Far Madding thing -- she did it after they were released from jail, and before they left, with the remnants of what she had in the Well. Healing requires contact, remember?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">In war, you say a prayer for your dead and ride on, because there is always another fight over the next horizon.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-10-19 19:10:18
subject: <b>Sounds Good</b>
body:
Ok, since reading Knife of Dreams, I have to admit that this isn't as craz yas I would have said a couple of weeks ago. The 1st thing Rand says on realising he has no hand is that he will have to relearn the sword, so its just a quick step from there to relearning how to channel without his hands. The sight isnt that bad though, so maybe something else is gonna happen to blind him further. Apart from that, it could work, but knowing RJ, it wont<br />


created: 2005-11-04 20:25:52
subject: <b>Spoiler</b>
body:
Loses hand in KoD<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Wolf King <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perrin.gif" border="0" /><br />Bonded for life to amber <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-11-06 16:32:52
subject: <b>I agree whole-heartedly</b>
body:
with the second to last sentence.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>It's not apples and oranges, but no one paying attention could compare these apples without noticing: <br />(a) one is 12 times bigger and <br />(b) both of them are rutabagas.</i></font><p></p>


created: 2005-12-30 16:24:07
subject: <b>Ishmael</b>
body:
Well we can all see now that the loss of the hand and possibly sight were literal interpretations.   It's quite possible that Rands sight will continue to degrade after the attack, and will leave him blind.   <br /><br />I am of the opinion that he will be able to channel blind and my single piece of evidence is a big one.  Ishmael could channel without eyes.   Every time that we encountered Ishmael in the first 3 books as Ba'alzamon he had eyes of fire.. not eyeballs.. And when Rand finally did him in, the corpse had blackened hollows where his eyes should be.  Since he has been re-incarnated as Moridin he seems to have his sight back, but his original body appears to have not had eyes.   <br /><br />I can remember only one instance where we see Ishmael when he is not actively intimidating the trio of Two Rivers men.. and that's during one of Perrins wolf dreams..  I'm at work right now, so don't have the books in front of me, but I don't think that he was close enough to make out his eyes there.  It's possible he only appeared with flame eyes in the dream world where he could manipulate things and appear however he wanted.. but the body that is left behind when he dies seems to show that he was without eyes.   <br /><br />Anyway, that's the one thing that really jumps out at me as proof that Rand could very well channel without eyes, since it has been done by his nemesis, and arguably the other most powerful channeler that has ever lived.<br /><br />Hope at least someone agrees. hehe


created: 2006-02-25 00:12:43
subject: <b>Ouch...</b>
body:
...I love the theory, I really do...and I think it has merit...but I hope you're wrong, simply because I will be forced to beat my head against a brick wall if Rand ends up being a blind messiah with a group of desert warriors and a wife giving birth to a twin boy and girl while being manipulated by a clandestine female organization with supernatural powers.  As I've said, many times, I'll simply start calling Rand Muad'Dib at that point...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>Hi!  I'm Mat!  I'm just like Mat from the WoT...except I don't have that hat, medallion, sword-spear, and I can't speak the old tongue...although I did dance with one of the Forsaken once...</i><br /><br />-Mat <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2006-05-11 05:07:59
subject: <b>you're forgetting</b>
body:
Rand already can see without using his eyes. So can Perrin and Mat. Whenever they think of each other and the colors swirl, they can see quite well without using their eyes. The clarity and focus of those swirls has been increasing, also - it is now clear enough to even recognize a woman as aes sedai. RJ must have grander plans for that than annoying the characters, which is about all it does now.<br /><br />Rand losing his sight and depending upon Mat and Perrin in the Last Battle would be among the possibilities.<br /><br />- travis


created: 2006-06-13 17:03:56
subject: <b>Handless Rand</b>
body:
I agree with Rand becoming a better channler without the hand that has been cut off in (I believe KOD).  Once he overcomes the problem he has when he reaches out for saidin and learns to use only his one hand he will be an excellent channler.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Arik &quot;Wolfbrother&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Death to the Twisted Ones <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/myrddraal.gif" border="0" /><br />Follower of Young Bull <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perrin.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2006-07-08 07:35:39
subject: <b>Ahem... Logain/Capturing Aes Sedai at BT</b>
body:
Read the scene in which Logain captures his second Aes Sedai. As I recall the Aes Sedai thinks something to the extent of &quot;Men always thought that you had to see something to effect it&quot; or something like that. We see that Logain effects her without seeing her.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Egwene must die.<br />Rand Al'Thor will face her wrath...<br />And laugh in her face!</font><p></p>


created: 2006-10-11 03:32:22
subject: <b>.</b>
body:
when a man is cuting the weaves of a woman.. or however u want to say that he can not see them but he can still cut them. also u can shield or still someone im not sure how taht works but seeing as how there is no visible conection between someone and the power as far as i know (could be wonog) so it must be possible to effect things without seeing them as such


created: 2007-05-18 09:32:49
subject: <b>The Hand</b>
body:
Wouldn't it be cool if Rand could channel a new hand of light that he could use.  Kinda like wormtail's silver hand.


created: 2008-03-09 06:56:40
subject: <b>Almost there...</b>
body:
I think the theory about the hands is an extremely good one. However. I do not agree with the blindness.  The prophesy might be refering to the fact that he is blind to what others around him are doing.  We can see in the last book that he has no idea what any of his friends are up to and this could prove to be quite detrimental to his success. Also, he seems to not want to take anyone's advice.  This &quot;blindness&quot; could be what the prophesy is eluding to. Just because on part of the prophesy turned out to be litteral, doesn't necessarily mean that the whole thing is.  As with most of the prophesies, they all have multiple meanings and no one, not even the Brown Sisters who have studied them, can do anything but guess what they mean.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Life is meant to experiment. You get out of it what you put into it.  So enjoy the ride and don't complain about the outcome. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/clap.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2008-04-15 22:14:28
subject: <b>I Like!</b>
body:
I think the therory is going to deal with both the hand and the eyesight.the hand will make him relearn all the weaves and the sword,but now if he wants to do both at the same time he's either going to drop the sword to do weaves or he's going to have to drop the hand sings.<br /><br />For the eyesight, he's either going to live in the &quot;Oneness&quot; or learn how to channel blind.I would think the eyesight would just be another block like hand signs.I also think he will eventually get his eyesight back,too.


created: 2005-09-21 12:41:57
subject: <b>Not to be harsh, but....</b>
body:
Aviendha is among the least likely to be Asmo's killer, simply because we know where she was. Asmo's pov has him walking away from her and Mat at the fountain, saying neither of them appreciated his music, and thus one of the reasons he got up and left. <br /><br />The biggest issue is timing. With Asmo walking away and leaving those two behind him, how could Aviendha get ahead of him to the other side of the door he opens to meet his killer?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2005-09-21 15:36:31
subject: <b>Doubt it</b>
body:
The Aiel dont even know how to shield a man. The weaves Lanfear wove around Asmo were reversed also, im sorry.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Awaiting the attack on the White Tower, and the Red's demise. <br />Hope RJ releases tid-bits of book 12, before three years passes us by            <br />   -LOS <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /> <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-09-21 15:48:19
subject: <b>I find your very first quote intriguing.</b>
body:
Although, of course, it would be just like a WoT-woman to choose what risks Rand can take after declaring he had no choice in which ones she took.<br /><br />Still, why would she be sent to kill Asmodean, after she had just had the crap beaten out of her by a weaker Forsaken? I seem to recall Wise Ones to be rather protective of their apprentices. It doesn't make sense.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>War must be, while we defend our lives against a destroyer who would devour all; but I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend</i><br />~Faramir</font><p></p>


created: 2005-09-21 16:31:48
subject: <b>Of course I agree..</b>
body:
Seeing as I wrote a longer theory on the same topic, but I would like to add that I don't think she knew Natael was ASMODEAN, but instead she knew that he was a DARKFRIEND.  Notice that Moiraine never mentioned his true name either, and her letter was going to disappear after Rand read it.  <br /><br />The people of WoT don't know much about the AoL, and at some point, an Aes Sedai (Moiraine I think), said that they don't know much about forsaken at all.  Of course, she did directly call out Sammael in Illian, but presumably, she knew about or saw his scar, or had some other kind of sign.  <br /><br />I think Avi and co knew that Natael was a Darkfriend, and probably assumed that he could channel (as he makes a number of suggestions that say he knows more than he should on the subject).  They may not have thought that he was Asmodean in particular.  <br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">http://www.green-machine.info<br />Making Money Online</font><p></p>


created: 2005-09-21 17:28:39
subject: <b>I don't think so I thing it was Sammael</b>
body:
I found this on encyclopaedia WOT, now I have researched it just as much as then next man and drew the same conclusion.  However this explains it much better<br /><br />The Two Servants Theory<br />Here it is. This is the first time the theory has ever been posted as a whole in one place. Part 1 explains why one of the two servants was the killer. Part 2 identifies the servants.<br /><br />The Two Servants Theory Part 1<br /><br />Of all the theories and discussions on Asmodean's death, I have not seen a single one posted here which explains the very peculiar location, just past a random door in a random hallway. I have a scenario that explains the location. <br /><br />It is early morning. Rand is chasing Rahvin.<br /><br />   1. Walking down a hall, he runs into Queen's Guards led by a Fade and freezes them.<br />   2. He turns a corner and runs into a couple of servants. This is odd since, the next morning, Rand notes that the servants all ran away and have not returned.<br />   3. He walks down the hall a little further and ducks balefire. He blows open the doors in front of him and<br />   4. enters a sitting room. He passes through the sitting room and<br />   5. enters a courtyard with a fountain. He detects traces of the gateway Rahvin used and follows him into Tel'aran'rhiod.<br />   6. That afternoon, Asmodean is sitting by a fountain in a courtyard. He goes looking for wine and<br />   7. passes a wall with balefire damage.<br />   8. On down the hall, looking for the pantry, he opens a small door and gets nuked. <br /><br />The key to the location is that 3 and 7 are the same place. The balefire was only used once before Rahvin and Rand entered Tel'aran'rhiod, so the damage noted by Asmodean must be the same as the first balefire attack on Rand. This being the case, the courtyard with the fountain that Rand entered must be the same as the one Asmodean sat in just before he died. Now note the proximity of 2 and 8. Asmodean was killed a short distance from the place Rand found those two servants.<br /><br />Conclusion: One or both of the servants killed Asmodean. Obviously, they were more than servants. One or two of the Forsaken stopped by to watch the fun in disguise. After the fight, they hid in a convenient cubbyhole to wait for the dust to clear. Asmodean walked into their hiding place and had to pay. Why wait around for hours? Enough One Power to open a gateway would be detected by Rand and/or Aviendha with unpleasant consequences. Better to wait until late at night when everyone is asleep.<br /><br />Who were they? Well, that is Part 2.<br />The Two Servants Theory Part 2<br />I think I have a new analysis on this question which leads to a previously discounted suspect in addition to the most common suspect. I will start with just two assumptions: 1) the normal whodunit rules of motive, means and method apply and, 2) Jordan's claim of sufficient clues through TFoH is correct. This does not mean eliminate suspects till only one is left. It means a solid case can be built which leads to a specific suspect(s) who had the ability to kill him the way he was killed, had a good reason to kill him, and was probably there to do it.<br /><br />First, let's look at method since that is the easiest. Even though weakened, Asmodean still had about as much strength as a Wise One channeler. Given his Age of Legends education, he should be a pretty formidable opponent against anyone but a strong channeler. Someone who could strike terror into Asmodean and kill him nearly instantly would almost certainly have to be Forsaken-level.<br /><br />Motive is surprisingly difficult to start. Asmodean was killed instantly and his body removed. Why? Over and over, the Forsaken have shown they are like cats. They love to play with and torment their victims even when it is a risk. For example, Ba'alzamon with Rand, Lanfear with Rand, Moghedien with Nynaeve, Be'lal with Rand, even Lanfear with Asmodean. The general motive &quot;any Forsaken would kill Asmodean on sight&quot; does not really hold up. There must be something more.<br /><br />Means provides the real evidence and comes from a host of small coincidences at the end of TFoH. First, we can use the rules of means and motive to eliminate most of the Forsaken. Be'lal and Rahvin were killed with balefire. Aginor and Balthamel are not yet resurrected. Demandred and Semirhage have POV monologues in LoC,Prologue and LoC,Ch6 wondering about Asmodean. Moghedien is collared. Eliminating these seven leaves five: Graendal, Ishamael, Lanfear, Mesaana, and Sammael.<br /><br />Invoking the rules of means and Jordan's statements, Ishamael, Lanfear, and Mesaana can be eliminated. There is no evidence whatsoever that Ishamael or Lanfear were physically back at all, much less Caemlyn, at the time of the murder. The earliest of the possible new Ishamael's, Shaidar Haran, is not even introduced till the day after the murder in the LoC,Prologue. After falling through the twisted red doorway, the only evidence that Lanfear is even alive is also in the LoC,Prologue where Demandred says that Lanfear, Asmodean, Rahvin, and Moghedien are missing and the Dark One only acknowledges that Asmodean and Rahvin are dead. The appearance of Cyndane makes it all the more likely that Lanfear was dead at the time of the murder. Likewise, I eliminate Mesaana and other incarnations such as Fain, Shaidar Haran, Moridin, The Previously Unknown Bad Guy in Winter's Heart, etc. since there is no evidence that they were in Caemlyn and no reason for them to be in Caemlyn at the time of the murder.<br /><br />Let's now focus on Sammael and Graendal and a bunch of small facts, potential Jordan clues, which add up to a big picture. First of all, we know that Sammael, Graendal, Lanfear, and Rahvin were consorting and plotting for some time. The Royal Palace palace was one of their meeting places. Most of the action in TFoH stems from their plans. Their basic plan was to goad Rand into chasing Sammael. When Rand attacked, the other three were to be waiting, linked, and take him out. The last we see, TFoH,Ch34, Sammael was trying to renege on his role, but we do not see the conclusion of the meeting. Needless to say, they needed lots of spies to make sure they knew when he would attack. Kadere and Melindhra are the two we know about.<br /><br />Also, we know that Moghedien kept track of this quartet. She listened in on their meetings in Tel'aran'rhiod. Also, from the LoC,Prologue, we know she set up meetings with Graendal for the day of the killing and the day after.<br /><br />Now let's carefully examine events just before the killing. It is clear that there is another high level spy with the Aiel who reported to one or more of the Forsaken during the night before the attack. Rand and his party show up in Caemlyn to find the streets deserted and the nearby houses and Royal Palace full of Trollocs and Fades. They were already there waiting when Rand opened the skimming gate. When Nynaeve collars Moghedien, she knows that Rand is on his way to Caemlyn and about when he will arrive. Finally, after a long absence, Lanfear arrives in Cairhien to quiz Kadere right when Rand is planning to leave.<br /><br />So, which of the Forsaken knew of the pending attack? For sure we know of Rahvin since he had the counterattack ready, Lanfear since she arrived at Cairhien so fortuitously, and Moghedien since she said so. Since Moghedien gets her info from listening to meetings of the four or possibly directly from Graendal, it is very probable that both Sammael and Graendal also knew about it.<br /><br />Let's envision a meeting between the four sometime during the night before the killing. They've found out that, instead of coming after Sammael in the future, Rand is coming after Rahvin first thing in the morning. Rahvin already has his wards set to detect Rand (because he is suspicious of the others). They send Lanfear to scope out the latest information. They quickly rearrange the plan so Rahvin is the target and the other three will trap Rand.<br /><br />Moghedien is listening in and catches up on the plan. If she is perceptive enough, loner that she is, to figure out that Rahvin does not trust the others and Lanfear has her own agenda, then surely Sammael, a great general, and Graendal, a psychologist, can do the same. When Lanfear does not return, it is no stretch at all to assume that Sammael and Graendal plan to double cross Rahvin. Bottom line: Both Sammael and Graendal had every reason to be in the Royal Palace during Rand's attack.<br /><br />Now let's look at more events. When Rand gates directly into the throne room Rahvin &quot;started up in surprise.&quot; Why is he surprised? He knows Rand is attacking. He knows that Trollocs and Fades and his lightning will take out some Aiel but are unlikely to get Rand. He knows Rand can Travel. He did not expect Rand to reach him because Sammael and Graendal were supposed to intercept Rand.<br /><br />Part 1 goes here. It is most likely that one or both of the two servants offed Asmodean.<br /><br />We have: It is quite plausible that Sammael and Graendal were in the Caemlyn palace. A couple of &quot;servants&quot; were hanging around where they had no business being. Asmodean was killed in a good hiding place, a servants passage, in the same hall.<br /><br />Scenario: Sammael and Graendal were in the palace to trap Rand with Lanfear. When he shows and she does not, they say &quot;Hey. Let's wait a bit. See who wins. The winner may be so weak we can take him out, too, with little risk.&quot; They hang out in disguise to watch the action. When Rand wins, they hide out in the nearest servants passage (remember, the servants have all fled) to wait their chance. Eventually, Graendal has to leave for her meeting with Moghedien, the one Demandred says Moghedien missed in the LoC,Prologue. Asmodean walks in on Sammael and has a natural reaction. What are Sammael's choices? Their plans are in disarray. The last thing Sammael wants is Rand coming after him now. If Asmodean gets away, he will certainly tell Rand and who knows what will happen? Clearly Asmodean has to go. Immediately. Now Sammael has a body on his hands. If he leaves it around, Rand will certainly be suspicious and may guess what happened. Better to remove the evidence.<br /><br />Of course, Graendal can be interchanged for Sammael in the previous paragraph. Most folks seem to think she is the much more likely culprit primarily citing the scene described in the following paragraph. In addition, there is the possibility that the two servants were a Forsaken and the world's unluckiest genuine servant. If that is the case, then the Forsaken was definitely Graendal as the female servant appeared to be in charge.<br /><br />We now come to two final tidbits from the last two books. This first point actually weakens the case a little. There are two dialogues in LoC,Ch6 and LoC,Ch23 between Sammael and Graendal mentioning Asmodean, one from each point of view. They both verbally imply they do not know about Asmodean although Graendal states that he is dead. However, neither one clearly states, in their thoughts, that they really do not know about Asmodean. So, possibly, either one could have done the dirty deed. The only point that is clear, from their verbal sparring, is that they did not kill him together. The only reason to lean toward Sammael as the culprit is that Graendal had that appointment. The second point of interest is the scenes with Sammael, Graendal, and Sevanna's crew in ACoS,Ch20 and ACoS,Ch40. For no obvious reason, they adopt disguises and act roles with the Shaido. Note that they avoid being touched as did the woman servant. As soon as they are out of sight, they drop the Illusions. This fits well with Sammael having his normal appearance when Asmodean walks in on him.


created: 2005-09-21 21:26:39
subject: <b>The &quot;Two Servants&quot; theory has bitten the &quot;Big One&quot;, wotguru.....</b>
body:
Unfortunately, RJ recently disproved this theory when he said the servants were just that; servants. <br /><br />No Forsaken in disguise in this instance.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2005-09-22 00:07:37
subject: <b>Tad Bit Long</b>
body:
Next time you come up with a long, convuluted theory, wotguru, you should probably post it on the theory post.  The blackboard is for short critisisms of the posted theory.


created: 2005-09-22 08:03:28
subject: <b>Quick thought...</b>
body:
Maybe it really was Avi that did it. The 'How did Avi get ahead of Asmo to kill him?' thing?<br />We have already speculated that Avi can channel gateways through time. Maybe she went back in time a few moments (or minutes, whatever) after knowing Asmo would goto that particular pantry looking for wine, go back and kill him, then take his body back into the past with another gateway, leaving no trace of him in the present. Hmmmm. The more I think about it, the more I like it!


created: 2005-09-23 00:18:05
subject: <b>already been argued</b>
body:
I believe this theory is already in the books and is better explained by Alydar. Check the archives before you post a redundant theory.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Vlad Taltos<br />Jhereg ex-assassin<br />Witch<br />Sorceror<br />Friend to Old Ladies</font><p></p>


created: 2005-09-23 20:10:00
subject: <b>The most obvious suspect</b>
body:
I think, the very fact that Aviendha was there does not rule her out. It makes her an OBVIOUS suspect.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>&quot;Rest if you must, but do not quit&quot;</i><br /><br />The Lady Vivienne <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shy.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-10-05 02:33:09
subject: <b>Avi is obvious</b>
body:
The entire book leading up to his death there are questions about Asmo giving away too much infront of people and really the only one this really applies to is Avi.<br /><br />There is also no need for Avi to be infront of him.<br />I think this is the confusing part for most people.<br />There are a miriad of possibilies here. He could have been taken from behind.<br />He himself could have been lost and bumped into her.<br /><br />There is no definite time differential from the time he left till the time he opened the door. We dont know how far the traveled or even if Avi had remaind with Mat when Asmo left.<br /><br />Ive always thought that the blood draining from his face was not fear but rather the reaction of being stabbed.<br />You cannot heal yourself. Any fatal wound would have done the trick Espeically if, as Asmo was doing, the channeler was day dreaming.<br /><br />How often have we been treated to the often used experssion about Knifes or Arrows through in the ribs when warders or others are talking about AS need to be careful.<br /><br />I have always suspected Avi always felt she was obvious.<br /><br /> <br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">See that Seagull in the sky Im just glad cows dont fly.</font><p></p>


created: 2007-02-21 17:07:08
subject: <b>No</b>
body:
She was off at the battle. She didn't follow. Rand was with her the whole time. I thought it was her as well, till I read the last chapter where he runs up to her after he cured her of dieing when Ravhin killed her.


created: 2005-09-29 07:36:52
subject: <b>It's interresting</b>
body:
It could be the case. Tho there's not really substential evidence for or against.<br />One thing tho, I don't think it's necessary for a hero of the horn who's previously been Ta'Veren, to be it again. I'm quite sure it could be possible for them to be re-born without being Ta'Veren. If I'm not mistaken, you can stop being Ta'Veren when the patern is done with you. (Not sure about this or where i got it from, but I'm sure I heard or rather read it somewhere)<br /><br />Anyways, it's possible that he could be, tho I don't see any way of knowing for sure.


created: 2005-09-29 07:41:29
subject: <b>One hole...</b>
body:
Lews Therin Telamon, the Dragon, the strongest of all souls, the strongest ta'varen, and most likely most powerful &quot;Hero&quot; (if you believe all three are Heroes as well as Ta'varen as do I), has only been reborn once.<br /><br />Ta'varen are very special, and are only born when the pattern need fixing. Regular souls, even Hero souls, are spun out much more frequently I believe.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Check out my WoT(ish) fanfic! Tentatively entitled, Sum of All Worlds, join Scimitar the Dreadlord as he begins an epic journey throughout the Worlds!<br /><br />http://www.worldofamadman.com/viewtopic.php?t=1023<br />Four of twelve updates finished.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-09-29 09:13:34
subject: <b>Ta'veren</b>
body:
I neglected to mention this in the original, but perhaps this is why we have not seen a Hawkwing parallel with anyone else. He's such a unique individual, even compared to the rest of the Hero's that having him reborn frequently would be pretty disruptive to the pattern. Thus the Creator would only spin him out in cases of extreme need. He's special even as Hero's of the Horn are concerned.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Funny thing about weekends when you're unemployed, they don't mean quite so much...except you get to hang out with your working friends.&quot;<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-09-29 11:06:14
subject: <b>Rebirth</b>
body:
One major factor in this theory is how frequently Ta'veren are spun in and out. We only know that Moghedien has a hatred for Birgitte; there is no solid knowledge that Birgitte has been reborn frequently enough to have fought moghedien several times, or that she just fought her in the world of dreams.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;What do you mean, why's it got to be built?&quot; he said. &quot;It's a bypass. You've got to build bypasses.&quot; - Mr Prosser, head builder</font><p></p>


created: 2005-09-29 12:43:23
subject: <b>Re: Rebirth</b>
body:
You'll notice that I never stated that Birgitte fought Moghedien more than once, simply that Birgitte was alive during the War of Power.  I only bring this up because later when her memories start to fade, these memories are referenced in relation to the founding of the White Tower. If she had no rebirths in between the War of Power and the founding of the White Tower, I would expect her to refer to to her memories as pre/post War of Power rather than pre/post White Tower founding, although we only her about it from Elayne's POV<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Funny thing about weekends when you're unemployed, they don't mean quite so much...except you get to hang out with your working friends.&quot;<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-09-29 13:04:25
subject: <b>I just dont buy it.</b>
body:
What about the fact that when the horn was blown by Mat we saw the High King as himself with his sword Justice as he appeared in his own life time, and not as Janduin? The horn summons hero&#8217;s who after some many lifetimes the stories of them depict common characteristics as we have seen with Brigitte. If these heroes have parallels why would; a hero, with a named sword would be spun out again as a clan chief of a society of people who despise swords. Nice idea but I just don&#8217;t buy it. Sorry.


created: 2005-09-29 13:40:32
subject: <b>NO GO but good Idea</b>
body:
I liked the feel of this, but I still don't agree with it.  <br /><br />It did tickle one memory from TDR though, when Matt summoned the Hereos of the Horn to fight against the Seanchan there stood Hawkwing on his horse, with Justice his sword in his hand.  He spoke to Rand, I don't have the book with me so I can't quote it exactly but the following sums it up. <br /><br />He stated that he knew who Rand was, even if Rand didn't know himself.  Now this could lead you too two possible conclusions, the Janduin one, or the fact that of course Hawkwing would recognize the only man to be stronger Ta'avern than himself, The Dragon, Lews Therin Telamon reincarnated.  A.K.A.  Rand.  <br /><br />Just thought I would through this in there. <br /><br />LR<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">AballaSonDis<br /><br />ASD-- &quot;The King Approaches <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" />&quot;<br /><br />&quot;The Idiot Warrior&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-green.gif" border="0" /> Warder to Jackie <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-green.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-09-29 15:37:34
subject: <b>A little more evidence - maybe</b>
body:
I like your theory although it has little 'concrete' evidence to back it up. However I did think of this. Both Hawkwing and Janduin where involved in Wars that had failed attempts to attack the White Tower.


created: 2005-09-29 18:07:13
subject: <b>To: Podge</b>
body:
If this theory is correct, which I am not voting either way, the reason that they saw Hawkwing with his sword is probably the same reason that Birgitte was seen with a bow, although by her won admission we know for a fact that she used a sword at least a couple of times. The reason is probably because that's what the stories remember and the main reason they were bound.


created: 2005-09-30 00:11:39
subject: <b>Not Likely</b>
body:
I doubt that there is a link for one simple reason.<br /><br />The heroes of the horn appear in T'A'R and for the horn in their most recent incarnation. That is why Birgitte thinks of herself and appears as Birgitte Silverbow, and same with Gaidal Cain. By this logic, since Hawkwing appeared, when summoned by the horn, as Hawkwing, and not as an aiel, it is likely that Hawkwing's last incarnation WAS as Hawkwing.<br /><br />Birgitte's life, IIRC, was during the period around the founding of the white tower, and before that she was in the war of power as another person. Her memories of things before the founding were fading, which implies all of her earlier memories and perhaps even her childhood. Even if her life was after the founding, it seems that she survived (in the past life) the war of power, or at least some of it, and so to use the war of power as a reference point seems less likely.<br /><br />Either way, I doubt that Janduin was actually a hero of the horn at all, given that he was never considered as a hero, per se, but simply as a leader.<br /><br />Of course, it is still possible, but to what end? Why would RJ bother making Rand's father the rebirth of Hawkwing?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Asmodean is alive and posing as Sammael!<br /><br />Sammael <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sammy.gif" border="0" /> is Sparticus.<br /><br />No, I'm Sparticus! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /> = <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />I'm Herid Fel Reborn!!!!! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shy.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-09-30 03:10:27
subject: <b>perhaps,,,perhaps not</b>
body:
perhaps not....you can see that the POV that we have of the heroes of the horn are based on the perceptions of the characters that they appeared to. this would influence our opinion of the heroes themselves. <br /><br />another point to consider is that when the horn is sounded, the heroes are called forth in there greatest role....so while Janduin may have been hawkwing, but not hawkwing at his greatest point


created: 2005-09-30 11:03:24
subject: <b>Still a Good Idea</b>
body:
Most of this theory is based on how frequently ta'veren are reborn, and we simply don't have enough information. Janduin and Hawking were both great generals, but that is still not enough to verify Janduin as Hawking. For example,<br />Agelmar is also a very great general, as well as Bashere, and many of the Seanchan. Birgitte may/may not have been reborn frequently, but more important ta'veren,namely Lews Therin, and Hawking aren't reborn too often<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;What do you mean, why's it got to be built?&quot; he said. &quot;It's a bypass. You've got to build bypasses.&quot; - Mr Prosser, head builder</font><p></p>


created: 2005-09-30 18:32:22
subject: <b>Nice idea.</b>
body:
But the Heroes seem to call themselves by the names of their last incarnations, that would be why their names are recognisable. I think if Artur Hawkwing had been reborn as Janduin, he would have appeared as so at Falme.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>War must be, while we defend our lives against a destroyer who would devour all; but I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend</i><br />~Faramir</font><p></p>


created: 2005-09-30 21:36:18
subject: <b>Seeming to does not make it true</b>
body:
Firstly, excuse me Fanatic Templar, but w/ all due respect: Based on what evidence are you making the assumption that Heroes call themselves by their last incarnations? Wouldn't it be more likely/logical that they would manifest themselves, when they are called by the Horn or residing in T'AR, as the person they were when they were originally bound.  At some point they had to perform some act/deed that made them worthy of being bound to the Wheel.  One of the heroes (I am not sure which at the moment) intimates just that to Hurin when he decides to march on Falme w/ the Heroes.  Look it up.   <br />Secondly: Bada**es they may be, but Davram Bashere and Agelmar Jagad, to my knowledge, have never performed any act profound enough to create &quot;ripples&quot; through the Pattern strong enough to be felt years or generations into the future.  Wouldn't siring the DR be distinction enough for Janduin to be admitted into such an exclusive club?  How about mobilizing the military action that led to Rand's being born on the slopes of Dragonmount, thus providing the oppportunity for Tam to find him and raise him among the &quot;ancient blood&quot; (I think that is how the prophecy goes, more or less)?  This still doesn't prove the theory, much to the chagrin of Logain Reborn.  However, I applaud him for his effort.  I must still ride the fence, but still, I have yet to see any definitve evidence thwarting his theory.  Not even the fact the Aiel do not use swords.  The Wheel weaves the heroes for its own designs not theirs.  We may never know.


created: 2005-09-30 21:36:46
subject: <b>Appearances</b>
body:
It was my interpretation that the heroes appear as their archetype in the TAR. That is, each rebirth adds a little or a lot to the legend (depending on exactly what they do during that lifetime), with the parallels between different rebirths corresponding to certain things which are tied to the soul itself.  I'm not sure how important physical appearance is to all of this, as Birgitte remembers some lives where she did not have the distinctive blond braid.  <br /><br />To me the person who mentioned Hawkwing's sword Justice makes a good point.  It seems to me that this is an integral part of his character and legend, the type of thing which would show up repeatedly and is hard to reconcile with an Aiel clan chief. Still, providing &quot;Justice&quot; might simply be part of his character, corresponding to Janduin seeking &quot;justice&quot; for Laman's Sin.  I confess that I am surpised that so many people voted &quot;yes&quot; on this theory because the evidence is pretty circumstantial.  Still, we haven't had a good discussion of the Heroes and their importance since the whole Olver/Gaidal Cain argument so I'm pleased that people wish to debate the matter<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Funny thing about weekends when you're unemployed, they don't mean quite so much...except you get to hang out with your working friends.&quot;<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-09-30 23:29:44
subject: <b>I wonder myself</b>
body:
I think that everybody is missing the point. The heros bound by the horn are not all necessarily ta'veren. They are merely heros who are bound by their own actions to be reborn time and time again. Remember when Hawkinwing told Hurin the sniffer that he too may be bound (believe it was Hawkwing) and Hurin is far from ta'veren. Not only that, but it is said that Birgette was reborn after the founding of the tower. Remember when she told Elayne about the Accepted who had bonded a Warder before she was raised to full Aeis Sedai? How could she know that unless she was there? Come on people!! Most of you slam everyone for not coming up with more information for their theories while at the same time you forget half of the relavent points to these same theories. I think that before you start slamming a theory maybe you should pick up the books that hold the pertinant information and reread a few chapters.


created: 2005-10-01 06:38:31
subject: <b>IIRC Hawkwing tells Rand they've been together and opposed in battle.</b>
body:
I suppose on occasion father and son might both have the opportunity to be in the same battle, but not often.  But FIGHTING each other, frequently?  Seems unlikely.  Of course, this is only a problem if we require Janduin to parallel Hawkwing, and all of Hawkwings incarnations to mirror the most famous one.  But much of this theory rests on such parallels, so without them it's little more than speculation.  I'm not syaing it's not so, but I'd bet against it.  Heavily.  <br /><br />Just my two cents; as always, I reserve the right to eat my words should occasion arise.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Warder to the unrivalled Rival.  Let the competition (such as it is) fear my wrath!<br /><br /><i>For full disclosure, subtract ~2000 from my CMB views.</i><br /><br />Love can't be coerced.<br /><br />Seek in Joel what goodness God gave me; seek the ill no more, for it and I are dead.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-10-01 16:11:12
subject: <b>Not seen by the Aiel</b>
body:
One point I think needs to bw looked at is that no Aiel saw Hawkwing, it was only the people in that particular party. Perhaps to the Aiel he would look like Jandiun.<br /><br />The vision the people see when summoned, my be based upon the legends they imagine in there mind. When we think of a hero or a story character we put a little bit of ourselves in it. Personally when I imagine a hero, he has a more herculean look to him, as I look at physical power as more 'powerful' than say a more agile person.<br /><br />Think of the first time you read LOTR, with the vague reference to the way people looked everyone had there own images of how the heros looked. I hate to bring up other books and authors but it is the best way to compare. Another case point is Garet Jax from the Shannara books, when they actually had a picture drawn of him, he was taller and thin, I personally imaganed him as a shorter Conan figure, strong as an ox and agile as a cat, when I think of a weapon master, I think you have to be very strong to use the great 2 handed axes or halberds, but apperantly the author thought otherwise.<br /><br />Everyone sees heros and described figures much differently in there heads, if you never see them it is all based on your points of veiw no matter how well discribed. Since the only POV we have from the battle have the same backgrounds, they of course have a large amount of similarity from that fact the stories where all told from the same people.  They probably all got together and heard there dads tell them the stories. and it more than likely has been that way for at least 3 generations from the books.<br /><br />I believe that the next time the horn is blown we may get a better 'look' at these heros....


created: 2005-10-01 17:53:44
subject: <b>I think it is interesting</b>
body:
If nothing else, it is nice to hear something original! Good work!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sister to Nossy<br />Shot swapper with a_fan <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br />Bonded to Phil Reborn and Sidious<br />&quot;Mommies are like wizards&quot; ~ CVH <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br />The fact that I don't agree with you in no way means I didn't understand you.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-10-02 03:00:12
subject: <b>Not much proof, but a likeable theory</b>
body:
BTW, it makes sense, though I only skimmed the Hero's Appearance debate, that they would appear in their most famous incarnation.  Also, remember Rand was able to attach a plethora or names to each hero, as if he was recognizing them from all their incarnations, but his mind just settled on the appearances that Rand al'Thor knew best. They called him LTT, because in this reincarnation he was the specific rebirth of one particular incarnation, not the same Horn-bound soul popping out for an &quot;ordinary&quot; purpose.  He is here to finish the work of his last incarnation. <br />Regarding whether Aiel would consider Janduin a hero: he was a unifier, true, but the average Aielman might not hold that sort of man in high esteem.  The war he led the Aiel on is not seen as a war by the Aiel, just a necessary task.  Also the end of his life is marred by two serious derelictions of duty: failing to uphold the law in the case of Shaiel's pregnancy, and walking away from his post as clan chief.  I think that would be sufficient to muddy his good name among the Aiel.  Even if there were Aiel at Falme to see the Heroes, Artur Hawkwing might be a more significant name to them than Janduin.  They did have some contact with him, and have shown that they do admire wetlander military heroes, however contemputous they might be of wetlanders in general.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


created: 2005-10-02 15:15:50
subject: <b>Just gotta ask this</b>
body:
If I've misread the books four times I'm quite prepared to accept it, but why do people presume that the Dragon is also bound to the Horn?  Personally, I've always felt that the only link between the Horn and the Dragon is the fact that it must be present at Tarmon Gaidon (as can be seen in Moiraine's POV in TGH, when she visits Adeleas and Vandene.<br /><br />Well done with the theory though, I voted yes


created: 2005-10-02 18:37:35
subject: <b>To: Paetar</b>
body:
Hawkwing's statement to Rand at Falme that went something like, 'if you could remember when you wore flesh...' strongly implies that Rand/LTT is one of them.  Furthermore, he said that they come for the Horn's call, &quot;...but we must follow the Dragon...&quot;  They required the Dragon Banner before they could advance at Falme.<br /><br />The Horn &amp; Dragon are linked in more ways than one.  It is established in tGH that the <i>Prophecies</i> for both Horn and Dragon don't mention each other, except in the way you mentioned, but it is also well demonstrated in the books that what people think the prophecies say is not what they mean, and things they think are figurative are literal ( &quot;...above the watchers he will proclaim himself in flames...&quot; Vandene believed in meant the Dragon would appear <i>north</i> of Flame, when in reality, it meant exactly what it said: above, in the sky).  Also, they believe there is no reference to companions of the Dragon in the Karaethon Cycle, but Noal quotes a few lines that almost certainly are a direct reference to Mat.  Moiraine thought there was no reference to the Aiel, but it turns out they are in the Prophecies, she just didn't recognize the references (People of the Dragon, Maiden wedded to no man, leads the spears to war, etc).  So just because it isn't in the Prophecies, doesn't make it irrelevant.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


created: 2005-10-03 02:27:39
subject: <b>Remembering lives</b>
body:
I remember reading about Birgitte's other lives, one of which was Marion. She chose the name as a disguise when she first came to Valan Luca's show, as she could not use Birgitte. She remembered the life as Marion quite clearly but her every appearance to date was as Birgitte until she was ripped out of TAR.<br /> I believe their first life that binds them to the horn sets there image and name in TAR. Any additional acts just reinforces their image.<br /> Janduin may very well have been Hawkwing, but is also likely he was just a taveren, pulling people to his cause or thread in the pattern.<br /> Mat also remembers many lives and deaths after his coming back to life ( maybe Rand can visit him in TAR after his next death) so anything may be possible.<br /> Good original theory, I think I will vote yes. Congrats.


created: 2005-10-03 12:27:25
subject: <b>Naming conventions.</b>
body:
For one thing, the Dragon is spun out every turning of the Wheel, so &quot;Lews Therin&quot; cannot possibly the incarnation under which he was bound to the Wheel. And yet it is by that name that the Heroes call him. Similarly, do you truly believe that Artur Hawkwing was the first incarnation of the hero? Think back to Falme. Rand knows the heroes by their more commonly known names, but also by others, <i>names he does not recognise.</i> Which, in itself, demonstrates that the names under which they are commonly known are <i>not</i> the first names they had.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>War must be, while we defend our lives against a destroyer who would devour all; but I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend</i><br />~Faramir</font><p></p>


created: 2005-10-05 19:54:20
subject: <b>Thought.</b>
body:
Well, I do agree with the theory, I think. As a gut instinct I do, but once I think it over....<br /><br />Anyway. Random thought of the moment -- So if this theory is true... Then Mat is Rand's father?! (Mat = Hawkwing = Janduin) Now that's a plot twist....<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Lady Amalthea Pendragon<br /><br />&quot;Lan is Shrek! Lan is Shrek! Look! Rand describes him as an onion! He's Shrek!&quot; ... wtf, mate...</font><p></p>


created: 2005-10-05 23:18:42
subject: <b>full marks for originatlity</b>
body:
unfortunately i really don't agree<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">idealism not pragmatism</font><p></p>


created: 2005-10-06 01:17:12
subject: <b>ummmmmm</b>
body:
This is ridiculous. It's based of thin THIN lines of logic and pure presumption.<br /><br />Extra points for orgininality though, so I give it an A-!!!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Empress of the Poofy Pillow Pile Palace. Perpetually.<br /><br />Comtesse of The Court of High King Tayron; Lady of the Horse and Various Fauna.<br /><br />Lord Gaidin's Aes Sedai<br />Sister of the Sisterhood of Oscar<br />Sister to Becca&amp;Sara<br /><br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/34381.gif" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-10-06 10:20:43
subject: <b>doubt it</b>
body:
The first line in the theory says it all, there is not a lot of evidence for it.  It is just speculation, and as such, we will never know unless RJ choses to answer it.  To some people, it will sound cool and make Rand and Janduin seem even more special.  To others, Rand is special enough and does not need his father to be a reincarnated hero of the horn.  Same goes for Janduin.  I personally do not think that everytime someone does something remarkable you have to go looking for a parallel in 'history' to find their souls. <br /><br />I have one question. By all accounts  Hawkwing was a strong tavern and a real bastard.  He allowed himself to be duped by Ishy to delcare war on the WT and send half his armies across the ocean.  I do not think he was compelled.  He mostly united the westlands by force.  What did he do to become a Hero of the Horn?  Killing thousands of people to force them to obey you is not exactly what I would call heroic.  If it is from a previous incarnation, I can understand that, but then why does he appear as Hawkwing when the Horn sounds?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">May you be successful  in all your projects.<br /><br />I am a pastafarion.  The Flying Spaghetti Monster created the universe, and no one in Kansas can prove me wrong.<br /><br />http://www.vengaza.org</font><p></p>


created: 2005-10-06 15:52:08
subject: <b>Questions</b>
body:
Course the real question is does it matter and what does it change if true or if false? I voted for it because it makes sense and has a certain level of poetry in it. But, if true, it doesn't let him tie his bloodline back to Hawkwing in any legal, magical or super-tav context. If false than just as good. Rand is still Rand with all the powers we've grown to know and hate. What's more, it says you don't need to have some horn ghost out there playing Zeus to have wheel spin out this season's heroes. Like I said I voted for it because it sounds like Jordan but seriously think about asnwering this:<br /><br />1) If Hawkwing IS Rand's father how does that fact change anything? Would such a connection make a difference at the last battle?<br />2) Do Perrin or Mat's parents also have ties to the horn and in this turning did their jobs as heros between the sheets and in the midwife's care?


created: 2005-10-09 18:55:58
subject: <b>sorry nope</b>
body:
i kinda like this theory, but i have to conclude that it is only a string of coincidences resulting in similar personalities between Hawkwing and Janduin.  My own biggest doubt is, if Janduin had the same soul as Hawkwing, then wouldn't Hawkwing have been a tall Aielman at Falme, instead of a hooknosed king.  I only say this b/c i assume the soul that lives in Tel'aran'rhiod, in the times between being reborn, takes upon the physical characteristics and personalities of their last life.  This is because that would be the image of him/herself that the recently dead hero would have of themself when they return to T'a'r again.  And we all know how one's self image affects how one appears in T'a'r, and thus affect how one looks when summoned by the Horn.  Had Janduin been Hawkwing, when Janduin died the soul of the 2 men would have thought himself looking like Janduin once back in the dream world.<br />-qBall


created: 2005-10-10 11:32:20
subject: <b>I disagree</b>
body:
For many of the same reasons as others have stated, I doubt your theory. You make a hasty conclusion about Birgitte having been spun out several times when infact there is nothing to indicate that she was. During important and troubled times she apeared twice closely after each other, but the pattern was in an uproar at that time so it might seem natural that heroes were spun out more often at that time. However, Birgitte Silverbow was her last incarnation as far as we know.<br /><br />I find it a lot more likely that each hero is spun out once or twice per each age than that he or she were spun out dozens of times. These are supposed to be special people whos lives are reserved for special events and points in time. They don't get to live lives without the purpose of the pattern tugging at their cape.<br /><br />All in all, this theory seems to shut its eyes to many known facts and many hints which we see in the books and picks from what is left that which suites its needs and drawes false conclusions based on this evidence.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sun_Tzu of the Olmit<br />One goal, one motion, perfection achievable - [TreKronor]<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2006-04-26 06:18:12
subject: <b>good...</b>
body:
great idea. don't no where u got the inspiration to look for evidence of it tho.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" />


created: 2006-05-24 20:15:56
subject: <b>very good idea!</b>
body:
well<br />i think that it was a little out there<br />but definatly a possibility!<br /><br />i personally liked the thought.<br /><br /><br />keep up the good work!<br /><br /><br /><br />Shippo<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Shippo</font><p></p>


created: 2005-10-13 21:01:49
subject: <b>I think I agree</b>
body:
You are right about the last chapter of the book there.  Now why would she do that, as red's they know that the men will hate them, but she talks them into it.  As they say &quot;Let the lord of Chaos Rule&quot;<br /><br />I agree yes.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">AballaSonDis<br /><br />ASD-- &quot;The King Approaches <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" />&quot;<br /><br />&quot;The Idiot Warrior&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-green.gif" border="0" /> Warder to Jackie <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-green.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-10-14 00:05:48
subject: <b>I said no</b>
body:
You're forgetting the bronze skirt w/ black scrollwork. As far as I can remember, it mentioned Tsutama wearing not bronze clothes. Quite possibly even red ones.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I am one can short of a six-pack!!<br /><br />Of spice-beer, of course.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-10-14 00:22:34
subject: <b>Not a Red</b>
body:
I do not think that she is a Red, as the color is never associated with Messena, but all Reds seem to wear to compulsively.


created: 2005-10-14 07:19:42
subject: <b>Disagree</b>
body:
RJ stated several years ago that we had the clues to identify Mesaana so it's not likely to be a new character.<br />KoD mentions a couple of sisters in brown/bronze skirts so I think RJ is happy with everyone struggling to work it for now.<br />


created: 2005-10-14 12:48:26
subject: <b>I agree</b>
body:
I have not read KoD yet, still waiting for the dang thing. I have to agree though, you tie it all together rather nicely. I am sorry to say that the color of a dress is not a very good thing to try and tie anything to. How hard would it be for someone to change? How about this, change your shirt, there you are now &quot;disguised&quot;. See what I mean, it is a good theory.<br />


created: 2005-10-15 20:22:40
subject: <b>Doubtful but I voted yes anyways</b>
body:
Simply because it was a good catch of the eye.  Many things do fit.  Also, she comes back seeming broken, but now people realize she isn't.  Or, possibly, could she have really come back a broken reed, then murdered by Mesaana, and now that people see she isn't a broken reed, they're really looking at Mesaana instead?  Despite her punishment, Mesaana is far from a broken reed.  Still, I find this all unlikely.  Too difficult of a masquerade.  Interesting nonetheless.


created: 2005-10-15 20:25:08
subject: <b>Disagree</b>
body:
You fail to recognize the evidence RJ presented himself quite some time ago. He did in fact come out and say that we had seen Mesanna's alter-ego. Therefore, you must rule out Tutsama as a possibility, since she has never been seen/presented until the KoD prologue.<br />And besides that there is much more evidence against your theory, you will see if you journey on down to the FAQ's here on wotmania and on tWoT FAQ's.<br /><br />I do , however, like your conclusion. It is well thought out, and it certainly does draw attention. But, then again it could be a Red Herring. <br />Your conclusion only works if in fact Taim is connected with Demandred and not Moridin.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Awaiting the attack on the White Tower, and the Red's demise. <br />Hope RJ releases tid-bits of book 12, before three years passes us by            <br />   -LOS <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /> <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-10-17 23:01:40
subject: <b>I'm very tired, frankly, of all these theories that somebody is posing</b>
body:
There were like millions theories that somebody is posing as someone known character. Have we EVER see that in the book? No. There were very short periods of time when Graendal posing as some High Lady invalid, but even Graendal did not pose on the constant base as some known person.<br /><br />So I say quit posing Forsaken as sombody - it's nearly impossible to duplicate the person.<br /><br />Mesaana is in White Tower. But not posing as a sister known to everybody ans she's likely using her own face.<br /><br />Frankly it's easy for me to imaine she is posing the chair in Elaida's study, we keep reading about.


created: 2005-10-18 02:23:18
subject: <b>Shouldn't this theory be in the KoD folder?</b>
body:
There are some spoilers in it, after all.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before,' Bokonon tells us. 'He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way.'</font><p></p>


created: 2005-10-18 15:52:50
subject: <b>Tsutama mentioned before</b>
body:
In A Crown of Swords, Lightnings:<br />&quot;The other two Red Sitters who had resigned and gone into a &quot;voluntary&quot; retreat at the same time were nervous-eyed women now, but unlike Lirene and Tsutama, Toveine had only hardened in her solitary exile.&quot; <br /><br />So Tsutama has been mentioned before, and I think her being mentioned only in passing once would fit Robert Jordan's humor. Plus, the assuing the identity of someone who has been gone for a while has been done before (Halima and Cabrianna).


created: 2005-10-18 17:52:28
subject: <b>About the &quot;horror&quot;</b>
body:
Did i mix up something, or was that horror about galina being black ajah explained because they were pillow friends in as accepted?<br />Or was that another POV...


created: 2005-10-18 21:03:18
subject: <b>2 Nefesis Sorander</b>
body:
Aran'gar is not posing as Halima, because Halima is not a real person. Aran'gar was given a body and he just uses Halima name. Nobody knows the body or the name.<br /><br />As for Cabriana - she is dead and nobody is posing as her. Halima was saying she is friend of her and provided some pieces of evidence she knew a lot of her. That's it. No posing at all.<br /><br />Posing as a full sister is a dumb theory. A lot of Aes Sedai would remember you from Acepted and novice days. Hell, they all know each other! Did you noticed how easily they defer to each other based on how many years one spent as Acepted and as novice? Taking in account that the number of Aes Sedai not that big, the full sisters would know each other well. Espesially from the same Ajah. In &quot;New Spring&quot; we got the scenes how the sister accepted to the Ajah, what she is doing etc. It's very obvious she is spending a lot of time in the Tower when raised. And her own Ajah would know her very well. I would not beleive a bit, when somebody is posing as the person you know that you couldn't figure out that sooner or later. Especially Aes Sedai, who pay attention to every little detail.


created: 2005-10-18 23:45:15
subject: <b>Partial Masking?</b>
body:
For Mesaana to be Tsutama, she would not be able to completely mask her ability to channel, but she would have to partially mask it, so that every sister who walked by her didn't realize her tremendous strength in the Power. Is partial masking possible? I don't know, but that seems like the kind of thing they would have learned from Moghedian. I have to disagree with the Tsutama theory.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-10-19 04:57:27
subject: <b>A couple replies with spoilers from KoD....</b>
body:
First, to chumpy5; yes. RJ has stated in several interviews that not only is it possible to completely mask the ability to channel, but also to make yourself appear weaker in the OP.<br /><br />To Skeeve the Great: Have you read KoD? If you haven't, you should wait until you have before you read any further.<br /><br />S<br />p<br />o<br />i<br />l<br />e<br />r<br />s<br /><br />c<br />o<br />m<br />i<br />n<br />g<br />.<br />.<br />.<br />.<br /><br />In Chapter 3 of KoD, we see Moridin say that Sammael has apparently resurfaced. After Graendal and Demandred express their doubts and stating he must be dead, Moridin continues:<br /><br /><b>&quot;Nevertheless, Sammael, or someone disguised as him, gave orders to Myrddraal, and they obeyed, so it was one of the Chosen.&quot;</b><br /><br />Then, from Aran'gar's pov, we have this:<br /><br />&quot;That sounds like Sammael,&quot; Demandred said thoughtfully, twisting his goblet and studying the swirling wine. &quot;Perhaps I was mistaken.&quot; A remarkable admission, coming from him. <b>Or an attempt to hide being the one who had worn Sammael as a disguise. She would like very much to know who had begun playing her own game.</b> Or whether Sammael really was alive.&quot;<br /><br />So, either Sammael has been resurrected, or one of the Forsaken used his appearance as a disguise to order the Fades. Since this is coming from Moridin, the Nae'blis, we can probably assume he would know if the DO had transmigrated Sammael into another body. And since he also doesn't know that the Shadowspawn were sent to kill Rand, (something we know he wouldn't do), we can be fairly certain that one of the Chosen did indeed pose as Sammael.<br /><br />Regardless of that, Aran'gar admits to using the very same type of deception herself. (note the last highlighted statement) Apparently at least one, and most likely another Forsaken, has taken the risk of disguising themselves and successfully passing themselves off as one of the other Chosen. Aran'gar's admission makes it sound as though she's done it on more than one occasion, too. <br /><br />Pretty chancy I'd say, but apparently they thought it was a clever thing to do and worth the risk. The question that remains; who did Aran'gar pass herself off as? One possibility is as Slayer's patron in WH. (This could explain Slayer's pov that he was <i>sure</i> it was a man, making him partly correct if it was him/her, all the while RJ is laughing up his sleeve at the joke.) <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> However, this doesn't qualify as posing as one of the Chosen, since that disguise was blurred beyond recognition. <br /><br />Another possibility lies in the multiple orders received by the asha'man to kill Rand. (Too many hands in the pie there makes it suspicious, and difficult to explain away easily.) So perhaps she passed herself off as Demandred as well. (since Aran'gar uses saidin, it would have to be a male).<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2005-10-19 08:18:08
subject: <b>To Ornthoron</b>
body:
This was posted under the KoD Category. I don't let through spoilers in the wrong Category.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Founding member of the ASI</b><br /><br /><b>TP ADMIN</b><br /><br /><b>Simon</b><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-10-19 15:26:54
subject: <b>2 LitN</b>
body:
Yes, I've read KoD. But my point was not about that nobody disguises, but rather that nobody disguises as KNOWN PERSON on constant bases.<br /><br />You should agree with me that diguising as a dead Sammael for a couple of minutes in front of Myrdraal (or as unknown &quot;male&quot; Forsaken that you can't even see in front of Slayer) is totally different than disguising yourslef as well known Aes Sedai almost 24/7, in front of bunch Aes Sedai who know you for centuries and that you should remember very well what is your strength is comparing to each one of them.<br /><br />I say the latter is almost impossible.<br /><br />The possibility of Mesaana was using Selene disguise was more believeable than that and only because nobody knew Selene and nobody could catch a lie from her, etc. (I still don't believe TLT, mind you <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> )


created: 2005-10-19 15:54:39
subject: <b>She swears too much...</b>
body:
to be a Forsaken.  The Chosen see themselves as far too sophisticated to be that gutteral -- especially considering the would be no need when Tsutama was not known for it before her exile.<br /><br />That and the character is too new.<br /><br />


created: 2005-10-19 18:15:00
subject: <b>I think</b>
body:
It has to be one of the women in the room with Elaida when Alvarain returned to the tower and was stripped of the Keepers title.<br /><br />


created: 2005-10-20 08:46:04
subject: <b>Laras??</b>
body:
I think Mesaana is masquerading as the cook. Who else gets to know whats happeing EVERY where in the tower. They all eat...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rand.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perrin.gif" border="0" /> The fourth ta'averen <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/crazy.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-10-21 02:54:17
subject: <b>Laras?????</b>
body:
I doubt it is Laras - Everyone knows Laras, and would know if she started acting different.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Asmodean is alive and posing as Sammael!<br /><br />Sammael <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sammy.gif" border="0" /> is Sparticus.<br /><br />No, I'm Sparticus! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /> = <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />I'm Herid Fel Reborn!!!!! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shy.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-10-21 21:36:40
subject: <b>Vandene may = Mesaana</b>
body:
Not sure how much evidance there is for this but thought I'd throw it out there <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />


created: 2005-10-22 06:05:05
subject: <b>Vandene =/= Mesaana</b>
body:
Definitely not.<br /><br />Since this is in the KoD section, it is allowed to have spoiler info, but I will try to be vague.<br /><br />If you have not read KoD, then I suggest you avoid any theories in the KoD section.<br /><br />We know (as of KoD) with 99.999999999999999999999% certainty that Vandene is not Mesaana. Even before KoD it was 99.99999%.<br /><br />There is one scene in KoD that proves it, and it's in the 600's (after page 599 and before page 700).<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Asmodean is alive and posing as Sammael!<br /><br />Sammael <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sammy.gif" border="0" /> is Sparticus.<br /><br />No, I'm Sparticus! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /> = <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />I'm Herid Fel Reborn!!!!! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shy.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-10-22 19:26:21
subject: <b>A Settled Question</b>
body:
I really like this theory. It's so good it ought to be true. Unfortunately RJ's been pretty blatant about Mesaana's identity ever since Siuan's overthrow. <br /><br />In the Guide she is described as &quot;often taken for being dreamy&quot;. Among the group of Sisters that come to Siuan's study to bind her is one who Siuan describes as &quot;dreamy&quot;. Later when Elaida meets with these same Sisters, she uses the same description. Interestingly RJ does not even name much less describe most of those attending these meetings. Those he does must have significance.<br /><br />Still later Alviarin uses the same language when describing the same Sister. Alviarin, who knows more about these things than we do, even considers her as a candidate for Mesaana, but thinks the dreaminess eliminates her as a possibility! As readers know, RJ is fond of irony: The very factor that Alviarin could have used to identify Mesaana is the one she used to remove her from the suspect list.(If Alviarin only had access to the Guide...)<br /><br />RJ tells us about three different people noticing that one Sister has Mesaana's demeanor. There is a message there. Of course none of them know it is Mesaana's demeanor, but reader's of the Guide do.<br /><br />Furthermore, when the group of Sister confronts Siuan in her study this dreamy-faced Sister changes her demeanor for a moment and smirks. Siuan notices this and calls it to our attention. Apparently RJ is telling us this Sister is more than what she seems.<br /><br />Yet after this point this Sister retreats into the background, holding no important posts, but still receiving an occasional mention from various characters. Oddly enough this further identifies this character as Mesaana.<br /><br />The Guide also tells us something of Mesaana's character. She is not interested in the appearance of power only the power itself. She is not going to be an Amyrlin, Keeper or Ajah Head, she is going to be someone behind the scenes giving orders to those people.<br /><br />One last item that is not in the FAQ. On the day that Siuan was deposed and Elaida raised, the Tower was still whole. Although the some did not like the manner of it, it had been done lawfully; Elaida's stole still had seven stripes. Later in Salidar even the Blues said that the only injustice done to Siuan was the stilling. They implied that if given the chance they might have voted to depose Siuan too. Although this was probably hyperbole, the Tower did not split until blood was shed.<br /><br />The bloodshed started only after some masons attacked warders. Who was in charge of those masons? This same dreamy-faced Sister.<br /><br />This Sister pulled the strings that split the Tower. That by itself should be enough to identify Mesaana.<br /><br />There has been so much subsequent shouting of &quot;Elaida split the Tower!&quot;, that we should take a moment to remember that that was never true. Mesaana split the Tower.<br /><br />Btw, she is a Brown which, according to the Guide, is also consistent with Mesaana's character as a researcher and explains the bronze skirt business.<br /><br />One Sister looks like Mesaana, acts like Mesaana, and even dresses like Mesaana. On top of that she split of the White Tower.<br /><br />OK, she doesn't wear a &quot;Hello, my name is Mesaana&quot; name tag, but she might as well. RJ has provided enough pointers in her direction.<br /><br />Her name and more is in the FAQ.<br />


created: 2005-11-01 10:46:36
subject: <b>Tsutama former Highest?</b>
body:
I don't know if I just made this up, but wasn't Tsutama the Highest before she was sent away?  Because that would explain how she became the Highest again so easily.  Also, I think she just returned to the tower very recently, and Mesaanas been there most of the series.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">All I know is, if I had three girlfriends like Rand, I'd be spending a lot less on servants.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-11-02 11:46:00
subject: <b>Thumbs up!</b>
body:
Yes, I thought the same thing when I read the prologue (great minds think alike<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" />).<br /><br />Everybody agrees that if Mesaana is posing as a sister, it has to be someone who has been away from the Tower for a long time. This fits Tsutama. Furthermore, Pevara thinks that the exile has changed Tsutama a lot.  'Though it's not a proof, the personality change does support your theory in a circumstantial way. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Apart from the sanitation, medicine, education, wine, public order, irrigation, roads, the fresh water system and public health, what have the Romans ever done for us?&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2005-11-05 07:10:04
subject: <b>I don't agree</b>
body:
First, it's clear from the LoC prologue that by then mesaana is in the Tower and has been there for some time (looking around for angreals and such, etc). That doesn't fit with Tsutama.<br /><br /> Also it seems quite likely that Mesaana was quite involved in the Tower coup in TSR. That means she was probably already in the Tower by that time, which eliminates Tsutama.<br /><br /> Besides, I don't think being the Head of the biggest Ajah in the Tower is a good position for a Forsaken. There's too much attention on her, too many responsibilities taking up her time. <br /> <br /> I still think it's Danelle. She fits the bill much better than the other candidates IMO. She's brown Ajah, dreamy, no friends, she was involved in the Tower coup, she's blue-eyed, etc.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Proud member of the Egweenie Roasters Club</font><p></p>


created: 2005-11-08 20:57:12
subject: <b>The librarian</b>
body:
I think that mesaana is the librarian that alviarin sees as she returns from her secret gateway hiding place.  She is a brown sister, is described as dreamy and insignificant, and was said to have supported elaida early on and then faded into the background.  It would give mesaana easy access to the ancient histories of the aes sedai (since she was working in the forbidden section) and could also tamper with them (let loc rule)


created: 2005-11-30 19:21:27
subject: <b>Disagree</b>
body:
Taim is taken completely by surprise by Pevara's suggestion.  He thinks it's a great joke to then say yes (as he's a DF and it's in accord with Moridin's &quot;Let the LoC rule&quot; instruction). If he was expecting it due to Demandred telling him about this great idea he's cooked up with Mesaana, then he would not be surprised.<br /><br />Oh, and the idea was originally Tarna Feir's not Tsutama Rath's, so shouldn't the theory have picked her to be Mesaana?


created: 2007-01-10 04:45:33
subject: <b>Mesaana's words</b>
body:
&quot;For now, I have a tiny task for you. In spite of the walls that have gone up between the Ajahs, the heads of the Ajahs seem to encounter one another with surprising frequency. By chance, they make it seem. All but the Red, at least; a pity Galina got herself killed, or she could tell you what they are about. Very probably it is trivial, but you will learn why they bare teeth at one another in public, then whisper together in private.&quot; (POD, chapter 25 &quot;An Unwelcome Return&quot; - Mesaana to Alviarin)<br /><br />I don't think Mesaana would give away that task, if she was the new head of the Red Ajah, would she?


created: 2005-10-14 22:31:48
subject: <b>Disagree</b>
body:
First of all, these are seen as sacrifices, sad, but needed.<br /><br />Secondly, the windfinders know very few weaves that the Aes Sedai do.<br /><br />Thirdly, as you said, complete ignorance.<br /><br />If they WERE acting as spies to give out information, they sucked. Now, however, that they are being returned...then, yes, maybe this'll change, and they will reveal a lot.<br /><br />But, mostly, I think, we'll never really know, as it won't be a plot point that gets wrapped up or really mentioned again.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Check out my WoT(ish) fanfic! Tentatively entitled, Sum of All Worlds, join Scimitar the Dreadlord as he begins an epic journey throughout the Worlds!<br /><br />http://www.worldofamadman.com/viewtopic.php?t=1023<br />Four of twelve updates finished.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-10-15 09:39:38
subject: <b>Maybe...</b>
body:
I don't no. there is evedence possibly that the sea folk are holdin info about there personalities and how they only really talk to each other. On the other hand that would be a very big threat on the wt this far into the books. Unless that would tie into egwene bringing all the windfinders to the wt....hmmm i don't no....<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">WAFFLES!<br />Bonded to Model_02<br />Alicia wishes she was as hot as me<br />Member of Anatidaephobians Anonymous<br />Not-So-Near Second Cousin to Saeric Greylord<br />Officially better at hockey than DREWRULESWOT!<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-10-15 11:24:11
subject: <b>I agree</b>
body:
You have to realize, people do wright letters to one another. Not to mention that they are in the perfect position to hide any facts that may have come up over the centuries about channelers among the Sea Folk. Being in the library they could locate any references to them and quite easily make them dissappear. If someone were to quetion what had happened to the reference, well how hard is it for someone to use Compulsion? Come on, the WT was supposed to have existed for 3000 years or so! Do you think that NO ONE in all that time did not at least once look into the Sea Folk? I think that some people out there in WOTmania just don't agree with any theories that they don't post themselves. Have an open mind for a change and actually use your heads when people put these theories out there for you to read.


created: 2005-10-15 20:16:55
subject: <b>I think they're loyal to the tower</b>
body:
I seriously think that they are actually loyal Aes Sedai.  If they weren't, why would they stay around long enough to attain the shawl?  Aes Sedai are convinced that there is little channeling ability among the Athan'miere because so very few come to the tower, and they are very weak.  BUT, they stay, work their butts off and become full sisters.  If all the athan'miere sisters needed to do was make the Aes Sedai think Athan'miere have little OP talent, they would on purpose fail or refuse to do the test for accepted.  Then they would get to return to their ships and the Tower would be convinced there is little ability among the sea folk.  But, they don't!  Why not?  Because after being in the tower for a while, they realize that this is what they want with their lives.  Thus, I think they are as loyal as any other aes sedai.  The only reason they don't let out the truth about windfinders is because they probably made an oath (not on the oath rod, just one of those classic &quot;I swear by my hope for salvation and .. blah blah&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> and they wouldn't break it.  <br /><br />Hm, I also suppose this argument could support them being disloyal also.  Sigh, that wasn't very good of me was it?  Perhaps they attain the shawl only to destroy Sea Folk documentation.  This is possible.  <br /><br />The truth will be seen when we see if the Sea Folk sisters decide to return to the ocean or not.


created: 2005-10-16 14:04:50
subject: <b>I disagree....</b>
body:
...with griefold.1's theory on some people voting 'no' just because they didn't write the theory themselves. Just because they don't agree with a theory, it doesn't mean they have a closed mind and don't use their heads.<br /><br />Good theory from KCF though.


created: 2005-10-17 10:36:20
subject: <b>A couple responses...</b>
body:
Just general, not to anyone in particular...<br /><br />I don't see any evidence that actually supports that the Sea Folk AS have shared any of the secrets...yet. The Sea Folk typically show just as much ignorance of the Aes Sedai as they AS do of them. This indicates to me that no sharing of secret info has happened. And that the Sea Folk AS probably have very little if any contact with family and such. There is a possibility that info has been shared at the highest levels, but I think it's quite small.<br /><br />The real importance to the theory is that when the terms of the bargain are met, all the WT's secrets will be in the hands of the Sea Folk. And this gives them a huge advantage in future bargains.<br /><br />Anyway, this theory was inspired by a question and answer from a recent signing.<br /><br /><blockquote>&lt;/i&gt;3) The Thirteenth Depository has never been revealed by a non-channeler<br />librarian for three thousand years. How is this possible? -- Because<br />there are no non-channeler libarians; the librarians of the Thirteenth<br />Depository are all Aes Sedai.<br /><br />&quot;Brown Ajah?&quot; I asked.<br /><br />He hesitated a moment. &quot;Yes.&quot;<br /></blockquote>&lt;/i&gt;<br /><br />It's the hesitation that got me. I think that he considered a RAFO, and in the least answered carefully (as any AS would). Of course he told the truth, since the Sea Folk are indeed Brown Ajah, but the key is that they are more than that - they are Sea Folk. And though they don't know it yet, a bargain was made to 'free' them from the WT.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Need a book to read - check out my blog for ideas.</font><p><a href="http://nethspace.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">Neth Space</a></p><p></p>


created: 2005-10-17 10:43:03
subject: <b>I see a pattern</b>
body:
I agree with this theory.  It's suspicious that all of the SF happen to be Brown and all work in the 13th Depository.  That's major coincidence or whatever you want to call it for such a diverse people. Why aren't there Blue, Green or Yellow SF Aes Sedai? We've seen evidence that they have fierce women among their people and a lot of them would be great Green's. But instead they are all Brown's with access to records that most of the Sisters in the Tower know nothing about.<br /><br />It's a pattern and a plan IMO. <br />


created: 2005-10-18 01:28:33
subject: <b>to Lord Scimitar</b>
body:
You can't teach a weave to someone in a letter so it would make perfect sense for the Windfinders to NOT know many Aes Sedai weaves.


created: 2005-10-18 13:23:06
subject: <b>The brief pause</b>
body:
Could have been trying to remember the ajahs of the characters because they are minor. However it is more than plausable that he was considering weather or not any of the being black constituted a RAFO or some other than yes answer.<br /><br />I find the description of RJ answering like an AS very funny. Maybe its actually the other way around and the AS answer questions like RJ after all he is thier creator.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">See that Seagull in the sky Im just glad cows dont fly.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-10-18 16:43:01
subject: <b>I disagree</b>
body:
I have always thought that the Sea Folk sort of cut themselves off from the women they sent to the tower. Since they are so uncomfortable with being away from the water I have always believed that those who make the sacrifice are left alone so they don't have to face what they have lost. It is definately an interesting pattern that they all work in the 13th depository, but as for choosing Brown, I think this also plays in to making as large a division from their past as possible. Just my two cents.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sister to Nossy<br />Shot swapper with a_fan <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br />Bonded to Phil Reborn and Sidious<br />&quot;Mommies are like wizards&quot; ~ CVH <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br />The fact that I don't agree with you in no way means I didn't understand you.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-10-19 05:56:43
subject: <b>I'm going to agree</b>
body:
Maybe because I'm a suspicious person when it comes to WoT and possible conspiracies. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> Whatever the case, it is a bit odd that the only three Sea Folk Aes Sedai all end up in the same ajah, <i>and</i> working in the same place. I'm not sure what all the ramifications of that &quot;coincidence&quot; might be, but something smells fishy. <br /><br />Perhaps if Egwene tries to force the Windfinders into allegiance with the White Tower, the Athan'Miere will simply blackmail the Tower by threatening to expose embarassing Aes Sedai dealings which the Tower would rather keep hidden. That should effectively put an end to that power-grab by Egwene. (I'm not an Egwene hater, but I've never understood why she thinks all female channelers, perhaps <i>all</i> channelers for that matter, should answer to her or whoever sits the Amyrlin Seat. The Wise Ones, the Kin, and the Windfinders have all done a much better job of attaining positions of respect among their people than the Aes Sedai have, and even Egwene wonders at this phenomena. Why she thinks she could do better or force these alliances to accept her authority is beyond me, and takes on an aura of arrogance.) <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/crazy.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2005-10-19 17:02:33
subject: <b>This theory makes sense</b>
body:
If the Sea Folk are going to send a few of their own in order to give the impression that that there is no reason to go looking there for more channelers, then why not send those willing to acquire as much knowledge of AS as possible -- i.e. those inclined to Brown Ajah.  Not to send them as spies, mind you, but as a clever bonus in case they were to return.  I could not imagine they were intended as spies because AS can't lie and as such they would be far easier to expose than regular spies.  Also, i get the impression it isn't the Sea Folk way to use spies.  They use honest -- but hard -- bargaining to get what they want.  They may have forseen that someday the AS would find out about windfinders.  It may even be in their Prophesies.<br /><br />In addition, as librarians of the ulra-secret 13th Depository they probably had to take an oath never to reveal the contents, or even it's existence.  I'm not sure if Egwene took any such oath (which wouldn't matter so much for her since she can lie anyway), but it's possible that Amirlyns and Sitters must also make a similar one.  It's clear that the 13D is a very, very well kept secret.<br /><br />Now if all that were true, it would this means is that the Sea Folk AS wont be able to reveal the secrets unless they are also realease from the three Oaths when they go back to the Sea Folk.<br />


created: 2005-10-19 18:19:44
subject: <b>no additional oaths...</b>
body:
There would be no need for additonal, secret oaths to protect the 13th Depository. There are existing laws (that are secret) that protect against it. Speaking of these secrets to someone who is not one of the few allowed to see the 13th Depository is breaking the law. Those people allowed knowledge of the 13th Dep. are the Amyrlin, the Keeper, Sitters, and those in charge of keeping the records (the Sea Folk sisters). <br /><br />The oaths would make it difficult for the Sea Folk to be spies. As would the 'brainwashing' that occurs as a novice and accepted. So, I really don't believe that any spying has occurred (yet). The real key is that if/when the Sea Folk are released from their oaths and returned to the Sea Folk they will posses knowledge that the WT keeps secret. This will cause problems.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Need a book to read - check out my blog for ideas.</font><p><a href="http://nethspace.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">Neth Space</a></p><p></p>


created: 2005-10-20 10:57:53
subject: <b>I was thinkning an oath was involved...</b>
body:
...because the depository is an EXTREMELY well kept secret.  So well kept there is not even the hint of a rumour that it might exist.  Tower laws are broken all the time, but an actual oath combined with the First Oath means it could be near-impossible to reveal it's existence.  Without such an oath in place, i find it hard to believe that a Sister who has been around a long time wouldnt have even the slightest clue that there might be secret records known only to the Sitters, etc.


created: 2005-10-20 17:05:49
subject: <b>Disagree</b>
body:
One thing to remember, Sea Folk had been sending weak channelers to the WT for a while in order to convince the AS that the Sea Folk had few channelers.<br /><br />The Sea Folk had no idea that a bargain would be struck, therefore, from their perspective, the Sea Folk would be spending their entire lives in the tower, a sacrifice for their people. Thus, when would they report back?<br />


created: 2005-10-21 16:51:07
subject: <b>Yes and no..</b>
body:
<br />I agree that the fact that all the Sea Folk sisters are Brown is odd, but I don't think that it means they're reporting back to their people. I agree with some of those who have posted before me: novice and Accepted training brainwashes them too much, their loyalties will inevitably shift. <br /><br />Though...if it does, why haven't they told the Tower about the Windfinders before now? Hmmm...I may be putting holes in my own theory.<br /><br />There is definately something odd about it all. But I don't think it's as simple as espionage.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">-- Order burns to clear his path --</font><p></p>


created: 2006-02-27 17:56:20
subject: <b>Nice theory Ken</b>
body:
The Sea Folk Aes Sedai have a part to play in the last book. <br /><br />They were assigned a duty - to become Aes Sedai and this keep the Tower away from the Sea Folk - and they are fulfilling it. Dereliction of duty is a serious crime among the Sea Folk so naturally they would follow their assignments. And properly.<br /><br />Which means not giving away Tower secrets to the Sea Folk while they are considered Tower secrets. Disclosing the existence or contents of the Thirteenth Depository to those not entitled is treason for Aes Sedai and is punished by beheading.<br /><br />Now that Egwene is spreading the knowledge of the Thirteenth Depository among rank-and-file Aes Sedai, and is likely to be sent to the headsman for it (and fulfilling a dream she had, see my theory on TP called Treasonous Thoughts), the situation will change.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> Linda Sedai <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Proud member of the Embroiderer's Guild of the White Tower<br /><br /><b><font color="red">FAQ admin</font></b> </font>'cos the FAQ is where it's at.<br /><br /><b>Currently working on:</b> my 70th FAQ<p><a href="http://13depository.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">The thirteenth depository : A Wheel of Time blog</a></p><p></p>


created: 2005-10-23 06:44:50
subject: <b>Unlikely</b>
body:
IIRC, Luthair was presented the adam when in Seanchan, not in the Westlands. The Black Ajah operate in the Westlands. It is possible that the channeller that presented the adam to Luthair was a darkfriend, but to be Black Ajah, you must be Aes Sedai (in the Third Age sense - three oaths).<br /><br />Other than that, Ishamael refers to it as 'enforced circles', not 'forced circles'. There is a significant difference between these two.<br /><br />I might be wrong, though.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Asmodean is alive and posing as Sammael!<br /><br />Sammael <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sammy.gif" border="0" /> is Sparticus.<br /><br />No, I'm Sparticus! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /> = <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />I'm Herid Fel Reborn!!!!! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shy.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-10-23 09:33:40
subject: <b>Deain was described...</b>
body:
...as 'one who called herself Aes Sedai'.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="blue"><img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /> <b>PROUDLY CELEBRATING 10 YEARS OF WOTMANIA!</b></font> <img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /><br /><br /><font color="purple"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <b>FAQ and WoT Admin</b></font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><font color="gray"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> <b>Part-time Philosopher of the Wheel</b> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /></font></font><p><a href="/wotmessageboard2showmessage.asp?MessageID=107993" target="_blank">New WoT quizzes!</a></p><p></p>


created: 2005-10-23 09:35:21
subject: <b>As much as we might like to blame them....</b>
body:
I don't think we can safely make that association. For one, according to Renna, the sul'dam that tells us about Deain, says this: <br />&quot;When Luthair Paendrag Mondwhin, son of the Hawkwing, first faced the Armies of Midnight, he found many among them who called themselves Aes Sedai. They contended for power among themselves and used the One Power on the field of battle.&quot;<br /><br />This tells us a couple things. He did not take these Aes Sedai with him to Seanchan; these women were already there making up part of the Armies of Midnight. It becomes obvious these women were separated from the mainland of Randland due to the Breaking, (or rather their forebearers were.) Those survivors from the Breaking continued recruiting channelers and carried on with the name Aes Sedai, much as the White Tower did, although they took a different direction than those on the mainland. I say it's obvious because they used the One Power on the field of battle, something AS sworn to the three oaths cannot do freely. This is further supported  by the fact that Luthair later used his collared AS against the other AS that opposed him.  <br /><br />It's rather plain that they didn't have an oath rod, IMO, and we are fairly certain the BA swears new oaths on the oath rod to maintain the AS &quot;ageless look&quot;, as well as to prevent them from revealing Shadow plots. So, while Deain might have been a Dark Friend, she wasn't Black Ajah from the White Tower.<br /><br />Another thing to keep in mind is that Ishy had a hand in creating the situation in Seanchan, settng up the &quot;Return&quot; as part of his plan for the Last Battle. It would be pretty safe to assume, therefore, that he knew about the a'dam, which was invented in Seanchan shortly before his 40 year cycle was completed after Hawkwing's death. However, when we get his pov as Moridin in PoD it says this:<br />&quot;These barbarous rustics offered too many surprises. A way to Heal being severed, however imperfectly. That was impossible! Except that they had done it. Involuntary rings. Those Warders and the bond they shared with their Aes Sedai. He had known of that for a long, long time, but whenever he thought he had the measure of them, these primitives revealed some new skill, did something that no one in his own Age had dreamed of.&quot;<br /><br />The way I read this, is that Healing severing is new to him, and so is the involuntary rings he mentions. (The Warder bond he learned about a long time ago, probably from Hawkwings' time.) So, if he was referring to &quot;involuntary rings&quot; as being the a'dam, he should have included this in the list of things he knew about for a long time, too. It looks like from this, that the forced circles first referred to in the glossary of ACoS is much newer. It says:<br />&quot;Entering a link is normally a voluntary act, requiring at least acquiescence, but under certain circumstances, a sufficient circle already formed can bring another woman forcibly into the circle as long as no man is a part of it.&quot; <br /><br />So while the forced circles and a'dam accomplish much the same thing, they are vastly different, and apparently created separately on two different continents, especially since there is no evidence showing any communication between the two lands, with the possible exception of Ishy. And since the female a'dam doesn't work on men, and men can't take part in the forced circles, I see no way for him to be involved in its development. (Plus he denies knowledge anyway.)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2005-10-23 09:37:28
subject: <b>'one who called herself in the AoL terminology'</b>
body:
i think that the aes sedai in AoL that were in Seanchan after the Breaking still called themselves aes sedai, but they wouldn't have had the oaths, still the fact that she was a df has merit<br /><br />however, doesn't moridin muse in suprise about the a'dam?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">idealism not pragmatism</font><p></p>


created: 2005-10-23 11:22:44
subject: <b>Involuntary rings &amp; forced circles</b>
body:
<b>To LitN</b><br /><br />There is a contradiction in your arguement. You say that Ishamael would have known about <i>adam</i> for a long time and forced circles was only recent knowledge. From the information from the glossary, it would seem that forcing a woman into a circle is pretty easy. Surely this would have been known in the AoL, and therefore Ishamael would have known for a long time?<br /><br />I didn't know about the glossary info when I wrote thios theory, but it doesn't imply that the circle can be used to inflict pain upon the forced woman or used in bending her to the will of the leader of the circle. The <i>adam</i>, however, does just that. <br /><br />This knowledge seems to be specific to the Black Ajah, also implying that Ishamael would have known about it for a while. The Black Ajah as an organisation is around 2000 years old and was started and guided by Ishamael, after all.<br /><br />Nevertheless, it is possible that Deain was an 'Aes Sedai' native to Seanchan who was not bounded to the Oaths. There is no proof direct proof for or against this, as far as I know. The chances are that she was still a Darkfriend, and all Darkfriends are controlled by Ishamael. Even if Deain had not come with Luthair, Ishamael could have still arranged for a Black sister to be brought to Seanchan so that he could futher the war - and Ishamael likes creating wars. That's a long shot, I'll admit, but still possible.<br /><br />What strikes me, however, is the similarity of purpose betwen the <i>adam</i> and the Black Ajah interrogations. It might be that Ishamael is the link between the two, but how would a male teach a female a weave? Why would the Black Ajah be the only ones to develop this weave? I'm convinced he had a hand in both, if the Black Ajah did not. Is it not more likely that Ishamael could have provided Deain, Seanchan or not, with an adam prototype, possibly made by the Black Ajah? If Adam had existed before, how is it that one Aes Sedai faction did not become dominant? Surely, as legend says, Deain had the first <i>adam</i> and, for some reason, gave it to Luthair. Where did she get this knowledge from?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="blue"><img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /> <b>PROUDLY CELEBRATING 10 YEARS OF WOTMANIA!</b></font> <img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /><br /><br /><font color="purple"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <b>FAQ and WoT Admin</b></font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><font color="gray"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> <b>Part-time Philosopher of the Wheel</b> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /></font></font><p><a href="/wotmessageboard2showmessage.asp?MessageID=107993" target="_blank">New WoT quizzes!</a></p><p></p>


created: 2005-10-23 11:37:12
subject: <b>It's possible.</b>
body:
But it would require Ishamael transmitting the Black Ajah's weave to the Seanchan Aes Sedai. Otherwise, it would be parralel development.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>War must be, while we defend our lives against a destroyer who would devour all; but I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend</i><br />~Faramir</font><p></p>


created: 2005-10-23 23:41:26
subject:
<b>There is a good chance of there being a link between these technologies but I think it goes the other way</b>

body:
You make a valid point that the a'dam and the forced linking using a circle of 13 share a common principle and probably a common OP tech.  There is a lot of evidence to support this.  <br /><br />The most likely situation is that Ishy transfered the technology between the two camps.  On the other hand, there is no possible way to rule out parallel development. Further, there is no reason that the technology had to flow from the BA to the protoSeanchen and not the other way around.  Indeed, I think it much more likely that the technology went from the protSeanchen to the BA since there is no evidence that the BA have knowledge of how to make a ter'angreal.  <br /><br />Assuming that the protoSeanchen 'AS' created the a'dam and that Ishy was still around it would be a simple manner for Ishy to use a little compulsion on her to determine how the a'dam works then forcing her or someone else to modify the technology to get it to work with a circle of 13 and 1 other.  Sure the process would be complex, but it is much simpler than going the other direction, IMHO.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">RabidWombat<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> Let the Lord of Rambling Thoughts rule <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> Proud owner of a 2 star rating! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /> Someone stole all my cookies <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-10-24 07:26:46
subject: <b>I agree</b>
body:
I agree with RabidWombat, it would not have been that hard for Ishy to have someone reverse engineer an idea. All he would have to do is appear in her dreams as Balzamon (?), who was running around near forever. If you would all remember when he was tormenting Rand, Mat and Perrin in the dreams he killed a few people for messing up. How hard would it be for him to just torture the info from someone, if they wouldn't give it freeling to him? It makes more sense that he gave it to the BA in the main continent rather than they simultaniously developed such a thing.


created: 2005-10-24 08:41:17
subject: <b>It's puzzling....</b>
body:
but from Ishy's pov, it seems he didn't know about forced circles until recently.<br /><br />I agree he should have known about the a'dam, since he pointed Hawkwing's attention to Seanchan in the first place. Most of us thought that's what he was referring to when he mentioned &quot;involuntary rings&quot; in PoD, and if we missed reading the passage in the glossary, that would be the logical thing to assume, too. <br /><br />Then when KoD revealed the BA using forced circles to inflict pain and putting someone to the question, it became apparent he most likely was <i>not</i> referring to the a'dam. <br /><br />At any rate, this technique is new to him, as he says not even in the AoL did they know about it or thought it possible. His lack of knowledge and surprise about the BA being able to do something similar, says he didn't show them how to do it, IMO.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2005-10-24 14:07:15
subject: <b>I agree with LitN</b>
body:
Even when we read it in PoD I was suspicious of the phrasing.  While an adam is a forced circle of sorts at the same time its not.  It is my opinion that an adam only gives you control over the other woman's ability not a joining of your power like a true circle.  In fact the only reason Nynaeve is able to weave Moggy's power at all is because she is actually a trained channeler unlike sul'dam who don't actually control the weaves they just allow the woman to channel and tell her what they want her to do.  But please note that neither sul'dam or Nyn are themselves holding the power in either instance which negates the idea that it is really a circle.<br />Whatever the BA does clearly involves a real circle and would therefore be the forced circle Ishy refered to and separate from the adam.<br /><br />But I would not say completely.  In both instances you are directly affecting the persons ability to channel.  In both instances you have access to her emotions and her physical sense of self.  Therefore I would say that both sets of &quot;Aes Sedai&quot; could very well have dicovered the forced circles independantly.  But that social structures, particulary the three oaths in the Westlands, are responsible for how that information was used.<br /><br />In seanchan you had independant AS who seemed to rarely trust each other or form alliances.  Without that trust capturing and controlling other AS would be impossible since the forcing circle requires a significant number to already be a part of the circle.  However if you made a ter'angreal to perform the same function you could remain independant and capture other women that might even be superior to you.  In the Westlands using a circle as a weopen would be cutting the three oaths to a hair and limited to the secret sisterhood that is the BA who while very ambitious are still a sisterhood.  The information would never have needed to progress to adam.<br /><br />The main reason I don't beleive that Ishy is the link between the two similar procedures is because as LitN pointed out he doesn't seem to associate the two himself.<br /><br />The adam is not the forced circle he refers to in his list of new things and he must have known about adam prior to being sucked back into the Bore and assumedly had enough time to give it to the BA if he were so inclined.<br /><br />Also I believe one could argue that being forced into the circle is independant of being tortured within a circle.  This is assuming that the torture is adam like and only in the victims mind.  If this is true it is more reason to believe that the adam is an independant invention caused by a random AS thinking &quot;I wish that b**** was on fire&quot; and suddenly having that woman screeming in agony and then trying to figure out how to do it without being in a circle. I.E. the adam was invented because the Seanchan AS still didn't believe it was possible to force a woman into a circle.  Particularly in the Seanchan instance, where there were no rules, if you discovered you could be harmed in a circle and at least one other person knew it then you would be even more wary of joining into one without being in charge of it.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where did these Skimmers come from?  I mean if they didn't want to read the book they could have just Traveled to another author.  Why risk arriving at the wrong destination?  Why risk falling into darkness?</font><p></p>


created: 2005-10-24 16:18:07
subject: <b>Further comments</b>
body:
At the risk of discrediting my own theory, but furthering the discussion of course <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />, we seem to have three seperate things here.<br /><br />Perhaps forcing a woman into a circle is common enough, even in the AoL, but the BA appear to have modified it so that they can inflict pain on the forced sister and bend them to their will. This <i>could</i> be a result of twelve women working together to control the thirteenth, or perhaps something seperate. I vote for something seperate because it would surely be known by other ajahs if this was the case. It would be in the records possibly, if not in practice. <br /><br />As you say, there doesn't seem any circle involved with the <i>adam</i>, that we know of anyway, but there is definitely something forced about it. It could be the case that the forced circle idea and the adam (if they are not the same thing) are linked only be some kind of physical principle. In a final defence of my theory, it would not be much of a leap to imagine that someone who knew a way of forcing women into a circle and control their pain could adapt what they knew into a device. As far as we know, all you need to make an adam is a silver leash. It could be as simple as tying off a weave within the metal, akin to Moiraine's tracking weaves or something like that. If the Black Ajah did come up with something like that (a long time ago, the knowledge would be lost now), then Ishamael could make great use of it in his schemes. Egwene and Elayne were able to figure out these things and there would have been enough women of similar strength at the time.<br /><br />Nevertheless, this is a bit of a mixed up picture ATM, especially with Moridin's PoV. For my own part, I don't think he really had that much to do with the introduction of the adam.<br /><br />The parallel development works, but my problem with that is that Deain is supposed to have come up with the <i>first</i> adam. That she is 'Aes Sedai' and ws able to come up with the adam and present it to the right person seems a little too coincidental to me. It implies that it is part of a plan, but I'll agree that it could all be happenstance nonetheless.<br /><br />As for Ishy's involvement, that will take some futher theorising. I've certainly been given a lot to think about anyway. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="blue"><img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /> <b>PROUDLY CELEBRATING 10 YEARS OF WOTMANIA!</b></font> <img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /><br /><br /><font color="purple"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <b>FAQ and WoT Admin</b></font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><font color="gray"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> <b>Part-time Philosopher of the Wheel</b> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /></font></font><p><a href="/wotmessageboard2showmessage.asp?MessageID=107993" target="_blank">New WoT quizzes!</a></p><p></p>


created: 2005-10-24 17:37:55
subject: <b>Hey if I didn't metion it already</b>
body:
I really think you made a lot of good observations when writing this theory.  And I agree with you that there is something akin between the adam and whatever the BA does to their forced memeber however as my previous post indicates I don't believe that either is directly related to each other.<br />The main points for believing they are in your theory are that it was an AS who made the adam and that Ishy was a central force in guiding the Seanchan empire which is reliant on this invention.  The problems that have been pointed out here are that Westland AS and Seanchan AS had no known contact and that the one person who could have connected them togeather doesn't seem to know about both instances of forcing.  I think you have agreed overall that this means the two instances could have evolved separately.<br /><br />But lo and behold there is something else to talk about which is definitely proof of a good idea.  The first being, how does a forced circle practice its torture.  Alviarin does mention guiding flows but as that is what the leader of a circle does it is possible that it is simply how that position in the circle is described even if she doesn't channel anything.  By this I mean I'm sticking to the idea that the torture is mental or psychic like it is with the adam.  If all they do is beat her with the power then there is no real reason for her to be introduced into the circle.  Well there might be one.  If it is possible to detect lies then this might be an explaination but I think there is insufficent evidence to support this. Lying is a mental activity not an emotional or physical sensation, which are the only sensations we have seen apparent in a circle.  Barring use as a lie detector I think it is inherent that the psychic connection of the link is the real weapon.<br /><br />Additionally to explain why this torturous potential is not common knowledge you really only need to look at the circumstances surrounding linking.  Most times links are only used to perform particular tasks and especially in the case of the Seanchan AS how often would you give up control of your channeling ability without great need.  I would postulate that the only reason forcing was discovered in the Westlands is because of the desire to capture men and because of the hesitant answer that Careane gave surrounding the issue apparently it was discovered at that time of research.  Only a BA would have been able to test the link further once she knew that you could force someone into a circle.  What could you force them to do if you could force them into a circle.  Only a BA would be able to pursue that question.  Maybe even to have the thought in the first place.<br /><br />As for the adam I think that a regular circle was shared by especially hostile partners and somthing went amiss that the AS who came to Luthair used to further her own goals at world domination.  Luthair was the only army in Seanchan without AS allies and therefore was the only one without competition for her.  The other armies would not have benefited from her invention and she most likely would have ended up collered by her own device even more quickly if she was amongst other AS.  It is quite possible that she expected to be gifted with freedom and power by virtue of her alliance and these were unbound AS so she had every expectation that she would outlive Luthair and perhaps replace him as leader of Seanchan.  It was a very interesting if flawed plan.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where did these Skimmers come from?  I mean if they didn't want to read the book they could have just Traveled to another author.  Why risk arriving at the wrong destination?  Why risk falling into darkness?</font><p></p>


created: 2005-10-25 04:51:21
subject: <b>I agree the circumstances and coincidences are suspicious</b>
body:
And a major point to be made in regards to this is that we have seen absolutely no evidence that the WT Aes Sedai have shown any proclivity to invent anything new on their own. This would include weaves and the making of angreal, etc. <br /><br />Even Moiraine knowing how to bend light and make things appear invisible was known in the AoL, as was balefire. It seems most likely she read about these weaves somewhere and perhaps learned them by their description and a little trial-and-error with lots of practice. Or perhaps she was able to find someone to show her, as we have seen instances of AS keeping secret weaves to themselves.<br /><br />But for the most part, what we have seen is the lost knowledge of weaves, and not the introduction of new ones until our heroes came along. Traveling, Skimming, the Mask of Mirrors, disguising your voice, hiding your ability to channel, inverted and reversed weaves, and the &quot;new Healing&quot; weaves are among them. All this alludes to the WT Aes Sedai becoming static or stagnant in regards to being experimental and inventing new weaves or rediscovering old ones.<br /><br />Being that the a'dam was invented shortly before Ishy was sucked back into the Bore, it's possible he took the <i>idea</i> to his BA and planted the seed. Since making ter'angreal is a Talent and appears lost to the mainland AS, perhaps they thought to develop this idea in another way instead, i.e., the forced circles. (They had roughly 1,000 years to work on and perfect it before he reappeared.) Given his attitude about their abilities, it's no wonder he was surprised to learn they had actually succeeded in duplicating the effects of the a'dam when he returns from captivity.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2005-10-28 19:40:41
subject: <b>Consistent</b>
body:
You have a strong case!<br /><br />Well presented<br /><br />It's been a long time Moridin 2000, hope your doing well!<br /><br />Columbo is on the case.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2005-11-21 16:17:42
subject: <b>Good theory, I voted Yes, but disagree</b>
body:
I disagree that we can be certain. But it's a possibility.<br /><br />Ishamael, perhaps, and not the Black Ajah did the inventing (a slight difference, but a real one).<br /><br />Or the BA might not have had anything to do with it.<br /><br />This is a very innovative theory.  While I'm not convinced by it, the thinking and work should be applauded.


created: 2005-12-16 19:46:13
subject: <b>The principles for the a'dam were known since the Breaking era</b>
body:
The Sad Bracelets, to control a man.<br /><br />It may be documented, Moghedien knew a few things about it.<br /><br />I don't think the Shadow is behind the a'dam. I think the Pattern is.<br /><br />If we go by the KC, Luthair's heir had to survive, establish a court of the Nine Moons and come back to be bound at the time of the LB, when she would marry the Fox.  The Pattern provided the means by which Luthair could overcome the &quot;evil&quot; AS of Seanchan, IMHO.  Same trick as Elayne, Nynaeve etc.<br /><br />In Ebou Dar I believe Moridin was referring to the Black Ajah's method to force someone into a ring.<br /><br />I don't really see why the AoL Aes Sedai would have cared much to experiment with that.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="images/personalsmilies/30778.gif" />Wheel of Time Reference Library : Articles, maps, charts and misc.<img src="images/personalsmilies/30778.gif" /><br /><br /></font><p><a href="http://13depository.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">The Thirteenth Depository - a Wheel of Time Blog</a></p><p></p>


created: 2007-10-10 15:29:07
subject: <b>Maybe</b>
body:
Well... I partly agree. First, it is possible that they invented it. But how did the Seanchan Aes Sedai get it? It could have been the Forsaken, which sounds good to me, buf not the Black Ajah. Well, at least it is less likely:<br /><br />1.The Black Ajah has no way to know what Seanchan is before the attacks on Falme. Sometimes while the books go it is said that not long after Luthair Paendrag landed on Seanchan, he was given it by Aes Sedai. Those Aes Sedai are often stressed NOT to be much related to Aes Sedai in the Wetlands.(like that name most<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />)<br /><br />2. I don't think that the Forsaken have trusted the Black Ajah more in the past than they do now, but maybe they got informed about the Adam invention by the Black Ajah, and went to Luthair Paendrag to give it to him. The wierd thing with that is, that the Aes Sedai who gave him the adam was also collared... Would any Forsaken let herself be treated like that?<br /><br /> I apologize for eventual things in this post being wrong<br /><br />/Taman


created: 2005-10-23 10:25:37
subject: <b>Nicely pulled together</b>
body:
Nicely pulled together.  I'm not quite sure though what your conclusion is?<br /><br />One thing that did strike me though - do you think her capture and little speech could be an attempt to direct Rand and his force's attention to Graendal?<br /><br />Graendal and Demandred have until now avoided direct confrontation with Rand and co.  Most of those who have confronted him have ended up toast.  One sure way to be Nae'blis is to be the last one standing.<br /><br />I suspect that she expects Rand's team to think along the lines of &quot;Rand's mad.  Graendal has healed that in the past.  We need to find Graendal!&quot;  I wouldn't be surprised if the first information Cadsuane oh so reluctantly drags from Semi is Graendal's location.  Her comment about the &quot;abrupt&quot; descent into madness in particular may be aimed at manipulating them into hasty action.  Of course from Semi's point of view if Graendal were to be toasted in a confrontation she wouldn't exactly weep buckets!


created: 2005-10-23 11:41:38
subject: <b>Even small errors could make a theory worthless.</b>
body:
Semirhage wasn't at SL. <br />We know it as a fact. <br />And we know that Moridin and Shaidar Haran have found the reasons for her absence ligitimate.


created: 2005-10-23 12:20:11
subject: <b>Tricksy...</b>
body:
You are right I think .<br />She did not need the image of Tuon to complete her disguise. She is reguarded as a deft planer and manipulater, amoung some talented company. I dnt think she make mistakes, she does'nt rush in to any thing like some of the others. She watchs and waits for the exacst right time to strick. Hence she wuld have brought overwhelming power if that was her aim.<br /><br /> She has planted herself closer than any other forsaken has gotten, with the illusion of captivity so they dont view her as much as a threat. This is her historicly strongest suit (the prison she got out of with the help of her captors). She also planted seeds of doubt as to rand's sanity in those he needs the most. She is coragous enough, and confident enough to put herselfin this position.<br /><br />I think her &quot;proclivity&quot; is pain, hence the knife sticking out of her collar bone and no wincing. A'rangar liked inflicting, not recieving pain.


created: 2005-10-23 14:10:35
subject: <b>I agree</b>
body:
Something is suspicious about the whole setup. There are a hundred ways in which she could have captured Rand, if that was her intention. If she'd woven invisibility over twenty additional damane, it would have been over in moments. <br /><br />Perhaps it needed to be secret from the Seanchan as much as from everybody else? That's why she couldn't take soldiers and servants for believability, because rumours would have started and interfered with the others she and Suroth sowed. <br /><br />Maybe she plans to work from within, rather like Egwene. She'll bet on the fact that he doesn't like to kill women, work on her guards, spread chaos and discord. It would be like her. <br /><br />My final thought is that she may be relying on being taken to the White Tower for trial - where Mesaana can have her freed.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">-- Order burns to clear his path --</font><p></p>


created: 2005-10-23 14:24:44
subject: <b>My problem with this.</b>
body:
I just don't see Semi taking this kind of personal risk.  How could she possibly be sure she wouldn't be killed in the initial confrontation?  Just one of Rand's party using Balefire and it's game over.  She can't be sure that none of them know the forbidden weave (as Moiraine did).<br /><br />More importantly, she seems to know something of what is going on in Rand's head.  What would have happened if LTT had successfully seized saidin at the beginning of that encounter?  LTT doesn't have Rand's hang-ups about killing women, and even if he did, it seems likely he'd make an exception for Semi.  If LTT is in control during that fight, Semi dies.<br /><br />Frankly, neither scenario makes sense.  As a plan to defeat Rand, her arrangements were foolhardy.  But a plan to allow herself to be captured seems even more so.  There are too many variables, any number of which could have easily led to a dead Forsaken.  Unless RJ has major puzzle piece yet to be revealed (and I suppose he probably does), then Semi looks like an idiot either way you slice it.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Veteran of the Butcher's Yard <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Remember Eben Hopwil <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-10-23 16:09:27
subject: <b>Mostly right</b>
body:
Most of your assumptions regarding Semirhage destabilizing Rands forces from inside ring true. But in Winter's Heart we learn that Semirhage was nto at the forsaken coffee social. Also she certainly was not at SL. one of the groups would have encountered her and mentioned her presence. I am sure she wasnt present there. Also Moridins comment that a man or somebody disguised as Sammael sent thousands of trollocs and a hundred myrdrall into the ways. Illusion works best when the appearance is close to the real person. I dont think Semirhage could have impersonated Sammael. but otherwise agree with ur conclusion that the whole capture was staged. Demandred, Messana and she could be playing a game all their own against Moridin's wishes.


created: 2005-10-23 18:54:45
subject: <b>Emendation</b>
body:
The sul'dam were all outside the house, as was &quot;Tuon&quot; when Nynaeve's ter*angreal caught that someone was channeling.  <br /><br />Both Nynaeve and Cadsuane were holding the source at the time and preparing weaves.  Was the Illusion that Semirhage created an active weave, or could it be tied off?  My point is that why did Nynaeve's ter'angreal respond to Semi and not Cadsuane  or herself.


created: 2005-10-24 00:03:17
subject: <b>It was an ambush that could very easily have worked.</b>
body:
I agree with 99% of this but the 1% I disagree with changes the conclusions dramatically.<br /><br />First, all of the servants were mute not just for psychological reasons, but because she didn't want to risk the Seanchen finding out.<br /><br />Second, Suroth, has already mentioned that there were very few DF sul'dam.  Suroth thought that Elbar might be able to find one.  It is quite possible that Semerhage would have an even harder time finding one DF sul'dam much less 6.<br /><br />Third, Semirhage, herself, had a huge advantage, just by being who she is.  A few reversed weaves of air to simultaneously knock out all of the men or some other weave similar to what was used on Elayne and company later on.  Rand and company would likely not even notice that Semirhage was chanelling and focus on the Suldam and damane, giving Semirhage even more time to take care of business.  <br /><br />Without the element of suprise, Rand and company, wins every time.  With the element of suprise Semirhage wins every time.  Semirhage simply didn't plan for the remarkable Cadsuane and her toys.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">RabidWombat<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> Let the Lord of Rambling Thoughts rule <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> Proud owner of a 2 star rating! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /> Someone stole all my cookies <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-10-24 02:54:59
subject: <b>Male a'dam</b>
body:
Two small points. The a'dam were probably left in the box to conceal the fact Rand's party were to be captured. And secondly the male a'dam give pain to women who can channel when they are held. That would be awkward for any channeler to hide on her person.


created: 2005-10-24 04:14:07
subject: <b>Semirhage's trap</b>
body:
I don't believe she planned to be captured - Cadsuane's toys were her undoing. I believe that she set up a trap that would have been sprang had they got into the house. The confrontation happened outside - prematurely. Whatever it was she set up unravelled when she was shielded. The adam box was right next to the door, conveniently located to capture them as soon as they got inside and into the trap.


created: 2005-10-24 04:47:53
subject: <b>Something surely smells</b>
body:
This scene felt very fishy to me and I think a couple of things shold be considered about this encounter.<br /><br />First, Semirhage knows that as long as shes not killed with balefire The Great Lord can bring her back.<br /><br />Secondly, a fireball&#8230;she uses a wussy fireball, why? She surely knows a thousand more dangerous weaves. She should be pretty surprised when it actually connects.<br /><br />Thirdly, why not have 50 damane hidden in the manor.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/seanchan.gif" border="0" />


created: 2005-10-24 16:30:09
subject: <b>to 327s10</b>
body:
Only that one male adam should feel sad.<br />New ones shouldn't feel like anything as no one has suffered in them.  What Nynaeve felt in the bracelets was the pain of the former wearer.  Just like she felt the pride in car emblem.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where did these Skimmers come from?  I mean if they didn't want to read the book they could have just Traveled to another author.  Why risk arriving at the wrong destination?  Why risk falling into darkness?</font><p></p>


created: 2005-10-24 16:40:34
subject: <b>i disagree</b>
body:
First Nyn notices someone channeling and Cadsuane say,&quot;I can do something about it. Once we are closer.&quot; The channeling that Nyn ditected was Semi's 'Tuon mask' inverted. Then at twenty paces Tuon &quot;flickered&quot; revealing Semi with a 'surprise' on her face. That 'flickering of Tuon' was a direct result of whatever Cady had up her sleeve. Rand recognizes her. That small ball of fire was Semi's red button. She panicked. This was clearly not a plan to be captured by Rand and his posse. Once team Rand was in the house the damame were going to shield them and collar Rand. It was a Dragon-napping gone wrong........But I am willing to admit that maybe Semi has pre-planned what to do if this was to happened. If she has it is definately a back-up plan. The main plan failed thanks to Nyn and Cady.    <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> my first post btw <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Fan of Rolan is my warder dont tick me off or you will endure the wrath of one of her 'moods'.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-10-24 17:11:32
subject: <b>Not necessarily</b>
body:
We do not know enough about the situation to judge it properly.  Does a weave of Illusion need to be held, or can it be tied off?  The rules of inverting/reversing are not clear--both Nyn. and Cad are holding and weaving, yet Ny's ter'angreal doesn't pick up on them for some reason, nor does Cads ter'angreal affect either of them.  &quot;Fury&quot; is perceived here by Rand.  Think of all the times Graendal manipulated Sammael.  <br /><br />Semi, barring her having a ter'angreal of her own to know if Rand and his Asha'man were channeling, can not expect them not to, and cannot expect to shield them with her 6 sul'dam.  And, because they are loyal sul'dam, the moment that Semirhage reveals herself as a channeling marath'damane, she faces everyone.


created: 2005-10-24 23:36:30
subject: <b>Good theory but</b>
body:
first off can I comment to a couple of the above posters?<br />Evelynne Sedai: Like you my immediate thought was &quot;she's setting him (Rand) up to go after Graendal.&quot;<br /><br />misty: if &quot;A'rangar liked inflicting, not recieving pain&quot; then they are the perfect couple <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> I know Balthemel was a letch - but hey why not! I'm not sure if he liked to cause pain in his women. If he did and Semi was a masocist then as I said they are a perfect couple.<br /><br />Rabidwombat: I too agree that she almost won with the element of surprise.<br /><br />Stinker AlTinker: Again I feel that if it wasn't for the ter'angreal of Nynaeve &amp; Cadsuane Semirhage would have won. The comments from Nynaeve afterwards indicate that the &quot;scoreboard&quot; doesn't tell the full story.<br /><br />BUT I am sure that I wasn't the only one who thought at the time &quot;this is too good to be true&quot;<br /><br />The fireball may have been just one of many weaves (webs) that she was flinging out in that moment of immediate panic.<br /><br />Her having back-up plans in place would explain her calm demenour when captured and her subsequent comments thereafter.<br /><br />cheers,<br /><br />MickeyDee<br />


created: 2005-10-25 05:37:21
subject: <b>Her plan was based on deception</b>
body:
Semirhage had obviously hidden her ability to channel, and the plan was to take them by surprise when their guard was down. If she had managed to get them inside the house and relax enough to release the Source, she might have been able to quickly shield all of them. (We've seen how fast Moggy was earlier in the series, when Liandrin tried to attack her.) Of course she probably would have had her attempted shields fail on Nynaeve and Cadsuane, but at least she could have successfully taken the men out of the fight.<br /><br />Her plan was foiled by Nynaeve's and Cadsuane's ter'angreal revealing her ability to channel first, and then by uncovering her disguise second, so the deception was foiled before it ever got a chance to happen, and had everyone on their guard except Rand.<br /><br />Since so much of the scene is from Rand's pov, we really don't have a clue as to how much of a battle took place. Logain and Narishma undoubtedly had defensive shields up, while we know Nynaeve's ter'angreal dissolves webs. (I think RJ said Cadsuane has a similar one.) Semirhage may have launched several weaves against all of these people, but the only ones that got through successfully were against Rand, who was unprepared, and Narishma who somehow sustained a broken arm.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2005-10-25 12:06:03
subject: <b>The image of Tuon</b>
body:
The image had to be right for the 6 she brought with her.  She had to tell them who she was impersonating, and she had to impersonate the correct DofthNM because Rand's party did, and should have, known that she was short and a general description.  And the damane did know what Tuon looked like.  Easier to meticulously make a disguise that was correct that you did not have to explain, than one that was incorrect that you had to explain.<br /><br />And I too have wondered what sort of trap she had in that house.  She had set it up so that she could get all of Rand's group into the house before she and the damane followed.


created: 2005-10-25 12:25:08
subject: <b>To Light In the Night</b>
body:
<i><b>Since so much of the scene is from Rand's pov,</b>we really don't have a clue as to how much of a battle took place. Logain and Narishma undoubtedly had defensive shields up, while we know Nynaeve's ter'angreal dissolves webs. (I think RJ said Cadsuane has a similar one.) Semirhage may have launched several weaves against all of these people, but the only ones that got through successfully were against Rand, who was unprepared, and Narishma who somehow sustained a broken arm.</i><br /><br />I think that this is the reason so so many see the battle as being too quick...They have not taken into account that Rand's pov also includes a time of uncociousness...and Min was unable to sense weaves..so she knows next to nothing of the fight..on the results.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>you know you can't leave Wotmania. It's kinda like herpes, you can just never really get rid of it.</i><br />Kit <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /></font><p><a href="http://www.cbgxtra.com/" target="_blank">Comics Buyer's Guide XTRA</a></p><p></p>


created: 2005-10-26 11:05:01
subject: <b>I agree with comments of RabidWombat and LitN</b>
body:
Semirhage would have succeeded except for two things - Cadsuane and her ter'angreal/angreal and Nynaeve and her ter'angreal/angreal. Though Cadsuane's experience was the more important of the two.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Need a book to read - check out my blog for ideas.</font><p><a href="http://nethspace.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">Neth Space</a></p><p></p>


created: 2005-10-26 13:40:56
subject: <b>voted yes but...</b>
body:
very well put together thinking.<br /><br />It DOES feel too easy.<br /><br />On the other hand, she faced more than she knew.  AND she was taking a risk to get RAND in her hands.  Worth a lot.<br /><br />Still I'm not sure that it wasn't a set up.<br /><br />My inclination is that she didn't intend to get captured.<br /><br />My thought also is that she may have a card up her sleeve about escape.  Something more concrete than overaweing her captors.<br /><br />But may not work.<br /><br />Be nice if Cadsusne had an Oath Rod.  Like was intended for Semirhage in the age of legends


created: 2005-10-27 20:50:18
subject: <b>Arad Doman?</b>
body:
You all do know that Rand has concentrated a significant amount of his forces up at Arad Doman now? You know...the last known whereabouts of the Forsaken we all know as Graendal?<br /><br />Semi's plan has just begun....<br /><br />


created: 2005-10-28 07:40:51
subject: <b>About Graendal</b>
body:
I doubt Semi is setting her up.<br /><br />The problem with &quot;Rand's mad. Graendal has healed that in the past. We need to find Graendal!&quot; is that no way in hell would Rand ever let a Forsaken weave on his brain.


created: 2005-10-28 21:40:15
subject: <b>i think she planned it</b>
body:
2 things.  1, aginor tortured myrddraal to find out about shadow movement, not semi.  2, every female channeler WAS channelling when they walked up.  What is the reason for the ter'angreal detecting channelling other than theirs, specifically in the house?  Maybe the ter'angreal that faces the way the channelling comes from will decidely point multiple directions over time to show all different ones?<br /><br />Personally, I think it was planned.  The circumstances, the lack of preparing many trap, inverted weaves to stun the party, and lack of having killed anyone, makes me think she hoped to get caught, under good circumstances.  Had she killed anyone, reparation would have most likely been demanded and her death imminent, but without putting up a fight at least and acting as if it all went bad, it would have been more questionable as to why things had gone so well against one of the most powerful and feared female channellers ever.


created: 2005-10-29 00:49:12
subject: <b>On the power detecting ter'angreal</b>
body:
Just to remind you all, at the cleansing, Cadsuane had Nynaeve's power-detecting ter'angreal, which allowed her to detect the channelling of the forsaken while HUGE amounts of the power were being channelled by Rand and Nynaeve.<br /><br />There must be some way to filter the detection of any weaving you already know of. That must be how Nynaeve knew that people were channelling in/near the house.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Asmodean is alive and posing as Sammael!<br /><br />Sammael <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sammy.gif" border="0" /> is Sparticus.<br /><br />No, I'm Sparticus! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /> = <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />I'm Herid Fel Reborn!!!!! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shy.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-10-29 04:29:24
subject: <b>Hum</b>
body:
Well Rand has always whined about nobles not doing what he's telling them to.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">~From beyond the Haze~<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-10-29 13:40:22
subject: <b>Plan B</b>
body:
Being captured is definately not the end of the world for Semi. Bringing Rand to Grendal is probably Semi's grand skeam but she would much rather have RAND COLLARED. It would be much easier for her to control a collared Rand than to manipulate him in a cell, shielded. Semi is definately having to revert to Plan B and is going to need darkfriend help to get her hands back on the collar. Plan B!<br /><br /><br /> Dont you think? . <br /> A thought.Maybe it's part of Rand being tavern not Semi's plan at all..(probably wrong but a thought)<br /><br />I say we balefire her in the buttocks<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Fan of Rolan is my warder dont tick me off or you will endure the wrath of one of her 'moods'.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-10-30 01:16:05
subject: <b>HAHAHA</b>
body:
&quot;I say we balefire her in the buttocks&quot;<br /><br />The newest method of liposuction - guaranteed to reduce your weight.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Asmodean is alive and posing as Sammael!<br /><br />Sammael <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sammy.gif" border="0" /> is Sparticus.<br /><br />No, I'm Sparticus! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /> = <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />I'm Herid Fel Reborn!!!!! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shy.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-10-31 14:29:00
subject: <b>Destiny</b>
body:
Rand should make Semi as head of IRS. After all like all rulers he needs revenues. One way to make sure that people pay their taxes would be that anyone who neither pays or thinks that he should pay less taxes would be personally audited by director Semirhage.


created: 2005-11-02 10:05:56
subject: <b>Agree with multiple comments but not the main theory</b>
body:
-Why did Semrihage impersonate Tuon?<br />1. She has to play two sides, fooling both the suldam and Rands party<br />2. It's impossible to set up another fake Tuon unless that person would've been let in to the plan.<br />3. LTT KNOWS Semirhage's face! Semi knows Rand has LTT in his head.<br /><br />-Why was the plan safe enough?<br />1. Looking like Tuon, inverting weaves and hiding the ability would free her from every suspicion of being a channeling threat. Especially with Suldam around.<br /><br />Semi was detected and thus defeated by a ter angreal which detects channeling (nynaeve's), and unmasked by a trick of Cadsuene.<br /><br />-Planning for capture?<br />1.What fool would do that when getting to choose between captor or captive?<br />2. As others pointed out; can't plan HOW you will be captured, what injuries you will sustain, or if it could cost you your life.<br />Don't think that reincarnation is thought of lightly! It comes with a random body, an unpleasent time in limbo and a lot of dissatisfaction and punishment from the DO.<br />Never think one of the Forsaken would willingly risk this.<br /><br />Also think about getting balefired or getting severed (as they think it can't be healed). No rpoud powerhungry forsaken will ever risk this willingly for what cause so-ever.<br /><br />3. The ragecontorted face was not faked.<br />4. The fireball was either a reflex reaction or maybe a less damaging attack so as not to kill Rand and disobey Morridin with it.<br /><br />5.RJ could've described the fighting and then switched over to Rand so it didn't appear that capturing Semirhage was a walk in the park.<br /><br />BUT....now that Semirhage is captured don't think she'll lick boots and stop playing games. They have just captured a wild lion with some sticks and ropes and they need to be as wary from her as she from them.<br /><br />


created: 2005-11-02 18:23:56
subject: <b>-High 5's Meradin33-</b>
body:
About time someone else sees the Light. Read my above posts.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Fan of Rolan is my warder dont tick me off or you will endure the wrath of one of her 'moods'.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-11-05 09:35:33
subject: <b>I don't see what this all leads up to...</b>
body:
... that Semi allowed herself to be captured etc so that she could make Rand &amp; co to believe her lie about him being insane? Yet you seem to believe that it's not a lie, but the truth... So...<br /><br />Your point being...?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">The only way to convince me is by providing some evidence!</font><p></p>


created: 2005-11-07 17:13:40
subject: <b>a couple of things- but i agree</b>
body:
Semi wants to torture Rand. The only way she could do this is psychologically. Wasn't she excited to torture that warder via his aes sedai? She can't kill Rand, but she can torture him and serve the DO. That comment about her jailors letting her go just foreshadows her belief- probably rightly- that she'll get out. The attack was meant to get Semi captured. She knew that Rand couldn't kill a woman, and so was furious that Cadsuane's ter'angreal revealed her like that. In a panic moment, anyone could have killed her by mistake. She could have been balefired. Her plan was to trick Rand into a meeting in the house, where somehow, Rand and co. would find the adam for him and her (shouldn't Rand be paranoid about security at this point), and then unmask Semi. The way this would happen would be through shielding and a removal of weaves. But everyone would be much more calm, and Semi would not be killed in the heat of battle. The ter'angreal revealing her almost got her killed. But I think that the party that Semi used and the way it happened is just too suspicious for it to have been the actual plan. The sad bracelet was just to make the attack look real, and to scare everyone to the point in which they would not realize that the attack was a rouse. I'm sure Semi has enough sad bracelets to take the most of the black tower, but she just needed to scare them enough to overlook the fact that Rand just invited a snake into the garden.


created: 2005-11-12 20:41:27
subject: <b>I agree...</b>
body:
The Dark ones greatest  weapon against the Dragon Reborn is his eventual madness.  So far all the battles have seem to have been taking place with sheer force and trickery.  Rand is on the verge of madness, his allies know it and the Forsaken know it.  During the battle with the trollocs Rand was on the verge of having LTT completely take over, unable to release the source.  If semirhage sent those trollocs, it could have been a test to see just how close he was to the edge, and to perhaps push him that little bit further.  She got confirmation that Rand was about to go insane (as do his closest friends from numerous other battles against the seanchean and the like).  Why would the dark one not play the ace up his sleeve?  And what better time after sheer force or trickery has shown minimal results thus far except making him more and more like stone and thus more and more insane.<br /><br />Could it have been the plan the whole time.  Slowly but surely attack at Rand's psyche, placing just enough heartache and just enough betrayal to make him not even human anymore.  When the time is right, place Semi close to a Rand as a captive where she is as dangerous as behind a palace wall.<br /><br />Cadsuane and Semi will have a battle for Rand's psyche, with the arrival of Moiraine making the difference.<br /><br />I also think that Graendal and Damondred will be a part of the plot as well, Semi is just the first chip falling in place.


created: 2005-12-01 23:52:29
subject: <b>Wacky Theory Post #2</b>
body:
Since I'm a bit pedantic about the Seanchan. Suroth is not the highest ranking Seanchan, technically she is since the Hailene is still in control. But technically, Gailan is the highest since he controls the Correne which has the power to absorb the Hailene.<br /><br />I have a question, I seem to remember something about the male a'dam only being used by men on either side of the leash. And unless my memory fails me or I have missed something, there were no men with Semirhage when she was captured. So that said, why would she bring /six<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bobbafett.gif" border="0" />or was it five?) male a'dam if you don't have anyone to use them on. Either she was planning to be captured and the male a'dam were there to reinforce the impression, or there are darkfriends among the Ashaman Rand brought with him. This assumption is made because female a'dam can't be used on/by men, and vice versa, at least I'm hoping so.<br /><br />Plus, wouldn't Semirhage have some sort of backup plan in case stuff was wrong. And assuming how meticulous she is made up to be. I would think that she would have an option included if she was overwhelmed. Semirhage either does not fear pain, or perhaps she even relishes in it, I think about one of the worst things that could be done to her would be pain (if she was collared perhaps), and how do you hurt the person who enjoys pain?<br /><br />Another wacky theory of mine is that she might have been captured intentionnally in order to panic Rand's crew into thinking he's nuts and Graendal could help him. They might start disobeying him, and might even lock him up for his own  safety and try to go after Graendal with an a'dam. Maybe this is the second hurt Perrin saves him from?<br /><br />About the Trollocs attack, perhaps it was Demandred who sent them disguised as Sammael. I personally find it suspicious that he would even remotely believe that Sammael was back when Morridin told the Forsaken.<br /><br />I'm not sure, if I'm wrong, please let me know. And I repeat, I am aware that there is little to no proof backing this up, call it wishful thinking.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Self-appointed #1 Mat, Tuon and Seanchan lover and protector. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2006-01-06 20:48:38
subject: <b>Just to confuse you more...</b>
body:
I haven't been able to figure anything out really, but I've noticed a few things that might be worth mentioning.<br />1)Semi would've needed to disguise herself as Tuon, because I don't think people in Semi's position really have much power, even over sul'dam<br />2)It seems like lots of people are assuming that all the sul'dam were DF, but when Rand told everyone who she was, the sul'dam couldn't even bring themselves to say her name.  Although, they could've just been trying to cover up, which makes it more confusing.<br />3)I'm leaning to the theory that Semi planned to get caught.  But I've got lots of things contradicting things here that depend on things we don't really know.  If she really planned to do anything, I don't think she would've started walking toward Rand.  Also, if she really meant to get out of there alive or uncaptured, I think she would've had the sul'dam ready to fight, and we know that only Semi was channelling, and that was probably only her illusion.  If she had planned to do anything besides die or get captured, she would've been much more prepared.  and lastly, Lanfear could've told her that Rand wouldn't kill a woman, so she could've been confident to come out alive.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">All I know is, if I had three girlfriends like Rand, I'd be spending a lot less on servants.</font><p></p>


created: 2006-01-08 20:28:42
subject: <b>What's your point?</b>
body:
I'm not sure what her plan was...but I don't think it was to be captured.  I think she planned to do one of two things.  Either she would overpower and capture/kill Rand and his cohorts, or if she found that impossible (through too many channelers or Callandor) to begin &quot;negotiations&quot; with the Dragon Reborn under the guise of the Daughter of the Nine Moons...leading to...well...I suppose that another theory, to be posted another day.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>Hi!  I'm Mat!  I'm just like Mat from the WoT...except I don't have that hat, medallion, sword-spear, and I can't speak the old tongue...although I did dance with one of the Forsaken once...</i><br /><br />-Mat <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2006-02-06 14:43:57
subject: <b>There was something wrong...</b>
body:
I thought there was something wrong with Semi's attack on Rand as well. Something just didn't ring right. Why would she allow even odds when from what we know of her she is very careful. And the odds are not that even since her channelers seem to be pretty much in the dark about what is going on and are really nothing more than weapons.. not knowing the more intricate weaves that Aes Sedai or Ashaman know. If she meant for a successful outcome to her treachery why not go all the way and have a dozen a&#8217;dam with her&#8230; two dozen! Have a force of them that could not be easily overcome.<br /><br />It is commented that she is brave but I just can't see how this plan was ever going to succeed. Some people say she could have won with the element of surprise. I don&#8217;t see that. The Ashaman at the encounter all held the Power. How did she expect to take them? I heard someone mention inverted air clubs&#8230; maybe? Seems pretty far-fetched to me - too simple. When Semirhage expresses her comment of a knife in the back from a kitchen girl and then faces the Dragon Reborn on even odds&#8230; it just seems wrong. <br />


created: 2005-10-25 07:35:52
subject: <b>A swordfight... Please no!</b>
body:
I always thought that defeating the DO would mean binding him to the Pattern and so making him obey the rules so to say. (btw. Idea comes from Steven Eriksons-House of Chains).<br />Hopefully Elayne and her giving birth on the Slopes of Shayol Ghul will play a part in this.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">It&#180;s sometimes really inconvienient to have a real life besides WOT.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-10-25 08:41:58
subject: <b>I really hope not.</b>
body:
Too many fantasy series have finished in this way. Unless RJ could really make this &quot;sword fight&quot; something truly different than what you've described it would really suck and I don't think this will be case. We have had the &quot;sword fight&quot; at the end of TGH. I can't see RJ going back to same sort of ending now.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Founding member of the ASI</b><br /><br /><b>TP ADMIN</b><br /><br /><b>Simon</b><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-10-25 09:42:52
subject: <b>Not sure, but I like the general idea</b>
body:
This agrees to some etent with what I've been thinking for a while, especially since Rand began experiencing problems with channeling.  I think it comes down to the fact that although Rand is a very powerful and skilled channeler, he is still just a human being and much inferior in strength and ability to the Dark One.  What sets him apart from almost all other channelers is that he has an extraordinary skill with the sword and the fact that he is ta'veren. I'm not sure if or how swordfighting might play a role in the Last Battle, but I definitely see him defeating Taim or Demandred in a series of events leading up to the Last Battle.  I think that such a one on one battle, face to face with swords would appeal to Demandred at least.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Funny thing about weekends when you're unemployed, they don't mean quite so much...except you get to hang out with your working friends.&quot;<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-10-25 11:38:28
subject: <b>Yes and No</b>
body:
My own thought was more in line with two concurrent battles where Lewis Therin takes control of the OP and fights independently at that level while Rand fights Moridin with a sword. Moridin's focus must be split between the two different battles somewhat making up for Rand's lack of a hand (which of course is just a gimmick to allow us to think Moridin actually has a chance in a sword fight with Rand). Lewis counters Moridins weaves and vice versa. Occassional weaves are deflected into opposing forces ranks killing thousands but this battle will be layered with layers. Mat's forces, Lan's forces, Borderlander's forces, allied weavers, axis weavers, Choosen, trollocs, dark friends, Padan Fain, orgies, wolves, dark wolves, etc, etc, etc...everybody gets their 15 minutes of fame in the fighting. Add to that the layer of clearing the seals and creating new using Eugwene's, Elayne's, and Avienda's special ter-angreal talents.


created: 2005-10-25 13:47:49
subject: <b>Sure</b>
body:
Ok well a sword fight might work but as for the sheathing the sword..<br />I dont think Morridin is stupid enough to fall for that again. Also i think that STS had its moments of glory in TGH and is now over and done.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">WAFFLES!<br />Bonded to Model_02<br />Alicia wishes she was as hot as me<br />Member of Anatidaephobians Anonymous<br />Not-So-Near Second Cousin to Saeric Greylord<br />Officially better at hockey than DREWRULESWOT!<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-10-25 17:53:46
subject: <b>Nice...</b>
body:
I think that was very well written out.  Very well thought out.  Good point on the swordsmanship - it is in our faces constantly, and I've always been glad that Rand had clutched on to that - as a reminder of his humanity, when everything in and around him tells him that he is the Dragon Reborn.  The sword is his relationship with Tam, the Two Rivers, and the young farm boy that was summoned strangely that one fateful Bel'Tine.  And I think those are things that Moridin will never have.


created: 2005-10-25 18:07:49
subject: <b>I'll agree on the how but not the who</b>
body:
Well I will agree that sowrds will play an important role in it I say he will fight Sadair harin or an upgraded version of SH <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/myrddraal.gif" border="0" /> .  Because SH can channel the true power(I think that's the dark ones thing, I can never keep them strait), and the fact that he is not the typical fade, and the forsaken even own up to him that he will be the Dark Ones rep at the last battle, however it's just my opinion and could be wrong. also, I figure for some kind of sistamatic kicking of forsaken but, Rand will hunt them down and take each one out, also I'm betting that any channeling in the last battle against the DO will be carried out by rand linked with someone or ones, because that was the fundemetal weakness of LTT's resealing of the boar, that it only had the male half that's why it was not a very good patch, and why it failed...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">no one esle is quite as insane as I well maybe we are but we are not telling I about it.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-10-25 19:53:02
subject: <b>Hmmmmm...</b>
body:
Isn't it convienent that one of the most powerful Sa'angreal ever made for men, Callandor is also functional as a weapon. According to the guide which i just started reading it was the only angreal ever made as an actual weapon. This would be nice to have a sword and a sa'angreal rolled into one in this scenario. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/clap.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" />Screaming_Defiance<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" />I demand the return of Hurin<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />I love these smiley's<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/clap.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banghead.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shakefist.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-10-25 21:47:59
subject: <b>Rand has to make the DO prison whole again...</b>
body:
...and i can't see how he can do that without the OP.  I personally think Rand will go completely mad before the end, so swordsmanship may not be possible at that point, but LTT can still channel.


created: 2005-10-26 00:06:30
subject: <b>Nice, Ashaman Consultant</b>
body:
I never knew that you could fight wars with massive amounts of orgies. I'll have to look into that.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I am one can short of a six-pack!!<br /><br />Of spice-beer, of course.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-10-26 00:09:10
subject: <b>I am not totally convinced</b>
body:
I do think that there will be sword-play but the LB will be described on so many levels and from so many POVs that it will be completely satisfying. I did think that the interaction between Rand and Ishy will take place in TAR or in another plane of reality in any case.<br /><br />At the same time conventional forces and Channellers galore will be going it with a gusto in and around Shayol Ghoul. (watch out for continuous cries of &quot;Have at you!&quot; and &quot;Ni!&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />BTW Ashaman Consultant: I love your idea of there being &quot;orgies&quot; taking place in the middle of a battle. Very original. Given RJ's recent addiction to &quot;pillow-friends&quot; I predict a very high male audience <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />


created: 2005-10-26 03:55:23
subject: <b>reponses</b>
body:
Just a few quick points, the theory I posted towards the end was really just an 'example' of what it might look like, and not an actual 'theory' theory about the last battle.<br /><br />That, and I'm definitely not arguing that there's going to be no OP or armies or stuff like that, I'm pretty sure that there's going to be an orgasmically good battle that RJ will provide.  Just wanted to point out another (possibly major/primary) component no one's seemed to mention.<br /><br />I do think that it will be with Moridin Rand fights, and not Shaidar Hairan, simply because of Moridin's comments throughout the first few books about how they had fought time after time again.  SH is the Dark One's Avatar, definitely...but Moridin is still Nae'blis, and probably has always been in every Turning.<br /><br />Personally, I don't believe that Rand is going to 'fix' the Bore in the conventional sense, simply because it's obvious that he can't fully repair it (he's not the Creator, and as LTT said and others have remarked, only the Creator can repair his work), and a patchwork wouldn't suffice.  So I'm postulating strongly that the Seal will somehow, eventually, heal itself.<br /><br />Oh, and Ashaman_Consultant, that is a VERY sexy idea.


created: 2005-10-26 10:51:43
subject: <b>blush</b>
body:
&quot;I never knew that you could fight wars with massive amounts of orgies. I'll have to look into that.&quot;<br /><br />Blush...well, umm...oops?


created: 2005-10-26 20:26:14
subject: <b>About Moridin</b>
body:
I think Moridin is actually the only forsaken who would sacrifice himself to allow the dark one to win the last battle.<br /> <br />As a philosopher he realizes that when the dark one breaks free he will break the wheel and have no use for the Chosen.  The others think that they will be immortal and rule the world  if their side is victorious, but Moridin has no such illusions.<br /> <br />He has decided to help destroy the world because in his madness he has decided that it must be done.  If sacrificing himself ensures victory, he might do it.  It would be interesting Rand had an invitation to sheath the sword used against him.


created: 2005-10-26 21:02:08
subject: <b>One power failing</b>
body:
I'm definitely in favour of aspects of the last battle being entirely physical as opposed to power driven.   With the little hints throughout book 11 about how wards have been failing recently, it seems that as reality begins to unravel perhaps the power will no longer be as potent as it has been in the past and more unpredictable.    <br /><br />This would turn the majority of the last battle into a matter of numbers and strategy.  Matt with his superior knowledge of commanding armies and his new weapon (cannons) will play a large role and Perrin with his two rivers men and rapport with wolves will also fit in.  It's a nice way to use the abilities of the other ta'veren that the forces of the dark have been neglecting for so long and are only now realizing their importance.  I think that will come back to bite them in the ass in the end.   <br /><br />And it does seem as though a climactic battle between Rand and Moridin is in store.  My worry is his possible blindness.   I believe he will be able to learn the sword again with one hand, but what of him losing his vision?  We all remember that his vision has been messed up by the explosion that took his hand, and the figure of the Fisher in the ancient chess type game that Moridin plays has an unhealing wound in his side and cloth bound around his eyes (representation of Rand).  I think that's going to be very important later on.  The object of that game was always to capture the Fisher and it's undeniable that the Fisher is some sort of representation of Rand.    <br /><br />Anyway, just some thoughts as to why it will be a battle less of the One power and more of tactics and numbers (Jordan did attend a military school).   And some worries about what will become of Rand in the next book.   That vision of him as a beggar hasn't happened yet, and there is the theory that he will fake his own death and disappear for a while.   And I always wondered about the prophecy that said whoever pulled Callandor out after Rand had thrust it into the stone would follow after him.  Perhaps Narishma will have a much bigger role to play in the last battle than anyone thought.<br /><br />Thanks for reading this long post.


created: 2005-10-27 09:26:57
subject: <b>Moraine?</b>
body:
like your theory, it's great. I think maybe when mat, tom, and whoever venture to go get Moraine they will find she's been recruiting snakes and foxes(forgot names) for the last battle to come aid rand. So go ahead and add some snakes to the massive orgy<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">YodasFather<br /><br />There are only 10 types of people in the world - those who understand binary, and those who don't.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-10-27 14:29:36
subject: <b>nice theory</b>
body:
But I have one question. Where do Mat and Perrin fit in with a sword fight? I should hope Mat is there personally for Rand rather than becoming Emporer of the Seanchan and leading them to battle side by side with Rand's forces. And Perrin has yet to fulfill the second time he must be there for Rand according to Min's viewing.


created: 2005-10-27 14:47:30
subject: <b>Couldn't think of a title</b>
body:
I'm still not completely convinced that it'll be Moridin that Rand faces in the end, and not Shaidar Haran. There've been too many subtleties about SH that lead me to believe he's more that just a &quot;SuperFade&quot;, and is actually a Myyrdraal possessed a portion of Shai'tan's conciousness. I don't know why, but for some reason, I see the seals being broken, Shai'tan taking full control of Shaidar Haran's body, and going on a whooping spree until Rand, having just finished with Moridin and thinking he can relax for a minute, realizes what's happened, and steps up. Some sort of cool battle between the two, and then, well, I don't know. This is why I don't write books. Well, that and poor concentration. But I still stand by what I said about the DO and SH. So yeah, I'm done now.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Of course you should fight fire with fire! You should fight EVERYTHING with fire!<br /><br />-Al'Gai, the Son of Battle<br />A.K.A. Anaro Ravenclaw,<br />Technomancer for the next Millenium <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/borg.gif" border="0" /><br />Revenant Bounty Hunter Extroidinaire <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-10-28 00:25:46
subject: <b>Moridin vs. Rand...</b>
body:
...I can get. Sounds really cool, actually. But as for Shaidar Haran, I still think that our pal Fain will be matched up with him. No one else stands a chance against SH. And besides, the Gollum factor is gonna come into play sometime.<br /><br />And please do NOT add the Aelfinn/Eelfinn to the orgies. I'm not a fan of bestiality. Pillow friends I'm all for.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I am one can short of a six-pack!!<br /><br />Of spice-beer, of course.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-10-28 14:46:51
subject: <b>Mat/Perrin</b>
body:
Mat, aside from the Seanchean, is still the blower of the Horn of Valere, remember?  Incidentally, won't it be simply -delicious- when the Seanchean, the 'children' of Artur Hawkwing, are led by him to battle?<br /><br />Perrin is going to call the wolves to the Last Hunt, to take out the 'shadowbrothers', the Darkhounds.<br /><br />Everyone has their own role to play; Mat generals the armies and calls on the Heroes, Perrin takes out the Darkhounds and calls the wolves, Aes Sedai/Ashaman will probably be duking it out with the new Dreadlord's/remaining Forsaken.<br /><br />Fundamentally, though, this is still Rand's story.  The story of the Dragon Reborn.  So he's going to be the one duking it out with Moridin (and the reason I say Moridin, is because according to him, he's been fighting with the Dragon thousands of times across the ages).


created: 2005-10-28 17:05:55
subject: <b>Horn of Valere?</b>
body:
I mean it is prophecied to be there and play a role.  How does it fit in this scenario.  Also the wolves are prophecied to be there to fight the Darkhounds, or the Darkhounds were invented to fight the wolves at TG.  I think there will be more to it than that, but I do like the idea of it boiling down to Rand vs. Moridin or Shadar Haran.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


created: 2005-10-28 20:52:50
subject: <b>rand vs. moridin, TP vs. OP ?</b>
body:
so, assuming Rand and Moridin face each other at the end, I would think it more than likely that with the scenario of a sword fight and power battle going on, that Rand will use the OP and Moridin the TP.  the problem here?  no one can see when  someone is using the True Power, so it would be very one sided, Moridin seeing Rand's weaves, but Rand not seeing his.   The same goes foes anyone facing SH, since h can use the TP too.  However, two possibilities, this new &quot;link&quot; Rand has with Moridin may allow him to see the TP weaves and allow him to counter them, or this difficulty with his vision may open up some new senses, a realization that you can actually tell when someone is using the true power.  The latter is not as good a theory as the first, but something to think about i guess.  If neither is the case, well, then we have a BIG problem.


created: 2005-10-28 21:32:21
subject: <b>thorn in Rands side</b>
body:
using the body of this theory and the idea that RJ has been wafting the importance of sword play before us on a fairly consistant basis, could there be a third factor thrown into the mix in the final battle concerning Rands never healing side wound? Perhaps this will also have an impact into this potential sword fight. Beyond the importance of the sword, this is one of the most discussed subjects overall in the books. Any ideas?


created: 2005-10-30 06:09:31
subject: <b>okay possible reason for never-healing-side</b>
body:
well................<br /><br />one of rands answers to survive the last battle from the aelfinn was:<br /><br />&quot;to live u must die&quot;<br /><br />that gives way to the STS theory, and provides the importance to the never-healing side. i the end, the never healing side must hinder rand in some way, possibly going for another STS moment, and dying as a result, leaving Alivia to patch the seal up, cos she's gonna help him die.<br />


created: 2005-10-30 13:51:53
subject: <b>Sorry, I can`t agree with this, but we`ll see.</b>
body:
Rand made sure the Asha`man learn the sword, and also guerilla-like tactics.<br /><br />IMO, this will play a major role in bringing down Taim`s Ashaman, since apparently, Taim is uninterested in that with his followers.<br /><br />The part Rand /LTT, and a small group,possibly including wolves and Heroes of the Horn will play will be at Shayol Ghul.<br /><br />TG itself will mostly occur in Westland, where all the weapons will be used: i.e. OP, swords, cross-bows, bows, hammers and whatever else comes to hand.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2005-10-30 17:07:33
subject: <b>Hahaha..... NO</b>
body:
You are correct in pointing out all the evidence of swords taking a major part. But notice except for rand's Gotta relearn the sword comment there are none in the later books. <br />    After Asmodean swords started becoming useless cause if your swordfighting and your abotu to lose just run through a gateway right?<br />  Well after asmodean rand learns alot of the OP vvery quickly. the OP is obviously more effective than the sword. Rand's power is getting so much stronger than it used to. Take the trolloc scene in KOD. IF rand has used his fire-sword and say lightning bolts. Tey would all be screwed now wouldn't they.<br />  I can see the last battle in your idea now.<br /><br /> Moridin run toward rand with his cloak billowing behind and swings-up for a strike, Suddenly rand pulls out his hand and casts *insert random OP gesture* (ligthing balefire blossom arrows that trolloc searching thingy fireballs ice, a rock) and hits him in the head. And he falls over and dies.<br />  Rand then decideds that life sucks, takes mordins sword and cuts his wrist. and the blood pulsates onto the mountain. And as he is dying he blows up the world.<br /><br />(then in multiple POV's all the characters realized they are screwed, say it, then eat drink and be merry)


created: 2005-10-30 17:57:29
subject: <b>Eh? No quotes after Asmodean?</b>
body:
There's quite a few quotes past Asmodean's death involving the sword's importance to Rand.  Best examples could be the arguments he gets into with both Mazrim Taim and Davram Bashere about it.  Read the books more closely.


created: 2005-10-31 03:55:47
subject: <b>I've had similar thoughts</b>
body:
Its quite possible the Rand and Morodin will fight with blades because the One power and the True power has a disorienting effect on both channelers when the weaves touch how the hell can you fight eachother when the person in front of you keeps spliting in two and your constantly trying to retain your last meal?


created: 2005-10-31 17:05:14
subject: <b>Ya well look at it this way</b>
body:
Oh come its obvious the farther into the books the less the sword is of use.  I mean can you really see a big last battle of huge armies marching on to each other with 10000k trollocs coming and rand using his sword?? i don't think so <br />And yes there are sword usage after asmodean but is it as big and as effective as of before?<br />With these new styles of channeling the sword is becoming more and more impractical and with the discovery of gunpowder soon the sword will be useless.


created: 2005-10-31 22:13:26
subject: <b>Right.</b>
body:
That's exactly why it's so curious why Robert Jordan continues to write so much about the sword's importance to Rand.  It shouldn't be important, Rand should view the sword as useless, but Robert Jordan continues to have him view the sword as something super-important to him.<br /><br />Why?<br /><br />Smells like a slice of foreshadowing pie to me <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />


created: 2005-11-01 11:45:41
subject: <b>Mordin</b>
body:
I think Mordin will shieth the sword.  I have a theroy pending on this actually, the even if Rand kills mordin, he will have to kill himself as well so that Mordin (who is in his head) can't take him over the way that LTT currently can.  I think that is how he will die.  He will defeat Mordin, and then have to take his own life.  OR, when Mordin takes him over, the opposing evil in his side from Fain's Dagger resists so hard it rips his side open and he bleeds out.  <br /><br />As to sealing the dark ones prison, I am not even sure Rand will be the one to do it.  The prof's state that Rand has to be there fighting, and that he has to die.  It never says he does any of the sealing, or that his fighting is epic or the the tide turning blow.  I think it would be very cool for the series if Rand dies very early in TG having fulfilled all he was supposed to do.  He kills Mordin, and then dies protect the world from himself/Mordin.  And in doing so he has left the world at a point where it has a chance to win, from that point on it would be a desprate struggle between all the factions that have come togethor becasue of Rand, and the forces of Dark.  The Dragon shreads appart the world forcing it into shape to be able to fight TG, Breaks the seal to start it, marches them into battle, then dies, his duty to the pattren done, and the fate of the world in the hands of those who will inherit it.  That is how TG should go!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">BORDERLANDER<br /><br />TAIM WAS NEVER DEMANDRED<br />&quot;All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident.&quot; <br />- Arthur Schopenhauer <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-11-02 23:09:32
subject: <b>Sharkbait hoo he ha</b>
body:
Think u might be on to something there, Borderlander.  Rand has done many heroic things in his life, so technically that makes him a hero, right.  Well if Rand did fight with the sword and die after either getting killed by Moridin, SH or any other guesses at the finale boss battle, or killing the baddie he&#8217;s still a hero.  So maybe he would be called back when Matt arrives with the seanchan army, blows the horn, Rand reappears in spirit to fight the DO, because, sure, Rand is powerful but RJ likes balance and the DO is the balance to the Creator so&#8230;surely you see the end result of that battle.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">YodasFather<br /><br />There are only 10 types of people in the world - those who understand binary, and those who don't.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-11-04 23:20:45
subject: <b>Just Thinking Out Loud Here..............</b>
body:
Reading all these posts at once, they just sort of meld in my mind..............<br /><br />1. To survive TG, the foxes told Rand &quot;to live you must die.&quot;<br />2. Alivia will help him die.<br />3. Somebody here suggested Rand will use Callandor at the last battle for its dual use as sword and sa angreal.<br />4. Cadsuane told Rand that Callandor was flawed so it could only be safely used by a man linked with &amp; controlled by a women.<br />Therefore: Rand + Alivia + Callandor = victory!<br />Maybe, instead of LTT directing the power while Rand fights, it's Alivia.  And maybe, after/while defeating Moridin, SH, etc., Alivia helps Rand fulfill the &quot;to live you must die part.&quot;  Instead of 'killing' Rand, she enables him to live, so Min should really cool it with her dislike of Alivia.<br /><br />Also, somebody mentioned the snakes and foxes getting involved somehow.  Well, if they're in Matt's head, then aren't the foxes also in Rand's head?  So far, he's been joined in there by LTT, Moridin, the foxes, Elayne, Aviendha, Min, and 'what's her face' that bonded him first...  maybe Rand needs to die just to clean house.<br /><br />And, speaking of everybody involved in TG, don't forget about Slayer.  He's probably still stuck in the Tower of Genjei, but he'll be at TG, and I bet he gets into it with Lan, Rand and Perrin at some point.


created: 2005-11-07 17:05:49
subject: <b>Interesting theory</b>
body:
While I don't agree with all of it, you do make a convincing point about Rand's insistence on learning/using swords. I wonder if this could be the final answer he got from the finns?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;I can express more emotion than laughter, anger and let's . . .&quot;<br /><br />Shooganooga<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-11-19 06:02:32
subject: <b>No way!</b>
body:
Let us not forget one of the weaves LTT was trying to remember in Rand's head.  The one that created Dragonmount.  (KoD)<br /><br />Oh yes, Rand is going to &quot;Sheathe The Sword &quot; -- One Power style.  There is a good chance that his madness will be quite well along, too.  My Ilyena...<br /><br /><br />Of course, in all the fighting and working his way to where the DO is sealed (and he will definitely go through Moridin in this), there is a good chance he will leak blood from his injuries on the rocks of SG.  Then he'll blow himself up to take out the DO or SH.<br /><br />Of course, all this falls apart if Nynaeve finds a way to enhance her healing skills on those areas touching madness and achieves some kind of &quot;reintegration&quot;.  Still, Suicide and Salvation makes a nice ending <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br />


created: 2005-11-25 01:56:52
subject: <b>Sounds familiar</b>
body:
&quot;I see this contest cannot be won by our knowledge of the Force, but by our skills with a lightsabre.&quot;<br /><br />And then Rand will use the Cat-on-Crack sword technique...


created: 2006-01-10 10:19:48
subject: <b>Sorry if this has been mentioned before but...</b>
body:
Channelling close to Shayol Gul is extremely dangerous, the forsaken won't do it. I can't remember whether it's said that this is because the DO actively discourages channelling or because of the nature of the pattern around Shayol Gul. The latter might be a good reason why sword fighting would play a major part in the last battle.<br /><br />I'm not sure how that squares with Lews Therin channelling to seal the bore...


created: 2006-01-18 18:05:57
subject: <b>A Few Things to Point out</b>
body:
You know, I noticed a few things that I can't get out of my head.  So here they are.<br /><br />1.  I personally think Logain will play a big role somehow, i.e. Min's vision of future glory.  I don't think he's really at the glory stage yet.<br /><br />2.  Despiser, I can't really see Rand and Moridin chatting it out and deciding to fight with the sword.  Isn't it a little unlikely in the middle of the battle of the age?<br /><br />3.  I don't remember if this was said or not, but to counter the problem about sealing, I think Rand and possibly someother people will kill the Dark One.  Possibly the Dark One could be the headline fight instead of Moridin/Shaidar Haran.<br /><br />4.  I think also that your putting too much emphasis on the sword.  Yeah, it's been mentioned a lot.  I agree with whoever said this, but a little bit more.  I think that it's Rand's link to his past and Tam.<br /><br />That's all for now.  One final note, though, is that Jordan will do something crazy for Tarmon Gaidon.  You never know.<br /><br />Redick<br />Duke Fan Extraordinare<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">A jury is a group of twelve people chosen to see who has a better lawyer. -Douglas Adams<br /><br />Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent<br /><br />Go Duke!</font><p></p>


created: 2006-07-14 07:49:45
subject: <b>Remember</b>
body:
Don't forget:<br /><br />According to Herid Fel the Dark One's prison must be destroyed before it can be rebuilt.  This means we wont see a resealing or healing of the bore.  And where will the Dark One be while a new prison is formed?<br /><br />Callandor's flaw was in it's lack of a protective buffer and it magnitude of the taint's effect.  Now that the taint is gone, there is no need to worry about insanity from use of callandor.  In fact, unlike other angreal, callandor can be used to draw unsafe amounts of the power.  <br /><br />Dovien Gleeman


created: 2007-01-16 00:54:04
subject: <b>Yes....</b>
body:
I have to deffinitely agree with your opinion on the final swordfight between Rand and Moridin, especially on how it will end with Rand &quot;sheathing the sword.&quot;  When &quot;Heron Wading the Rushes&quot; and the talk about sheathing the sword from Lan, that was my first thought was this would be the end of the final battle.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Toad D-Manz <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/crazy.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2007-08-30 14:09:17
subject: <b>rand wont relearn the sword</b>
body:
When Rand creates a sword of fire with the one power then he will also create a hand of fire in the place of the hand that got blown off. Just like when he doesnt have a sword while fighting Bel La at the end of the third book. he could just create a hand from the one power whenever he needs it.


created: 2005-10-29 09:30:59
subject: <b>IM FIRST</b>
body:
i agree and it was all gd an all but.....who cares all the sea folk do is annoy me...they should all be shot. I hope rand just gets pissed at them one day and blows em all to hell.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">WAFFLES!<br />Bonded to Model_02<br />Alicia wishes she was as hot as me<br />Member of Anatidaephobians Anonymous<br />Not-So-Near Second Cousin to Saeric Greylord<br />Officially better at hockey than DREWRULESWOT!<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-10-29 13:12:59
subject: <b>I pity the foo</b>
body:
Man your dedicated Mordin...Wonder where Mr. T would rank?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Fan of Rolan is my warder dont tick me off or you will endure the wrath of one of her 'moods'.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-10-29 14:57:06
subject: <b>Great research!</b>
body:
The hierarchy stuff seems right, though there doesn't really seem to be much evidence about the ring thickness stuff. What you've come up with is as good a guess as any, but still just a guess, I think <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />. You've done a really good treatment of the ring numbers though.<br /><br /><br />I'm not sure I agree, however, on the attitude to channeling. Yes, they stay one rank down from their Sailmistress or Wavemistress, but this is from necessity. A ship can only have one captain. You might point out that the Sailmistress and the Cargomaster have the same rank, but they are never equal. The Cargomaster has complete control of trading, and the Sailmistress has absolute control when it comes to matters of the ship. It simply wouldn't make sense for the Windfinder to have the same rank as her Sailmistress, because only one can be in command.<br /><br />Of course you are right that channelers are unable to reach the higher positions of power such as First Twelve and Mistress of the Ships, but I feel this is more to do with the fact that Sea Folk society is very much based on people doing what they are best suited for. If someone is capable of using the power to navigate and bring good winds, then it would be a waste for them to spend their time looking after running the ship as a Sailmistress.<br /><br />I think you have it wrong when you refer to distaste. The windfinders are very well respected by most Sea Folk. There is only one case that we know of where a Wavemistress bullies her windfinder, and that is Harine? and Shalon. There may equally be cases where Wavemistress is under the thumb of her windfinder.<br /><br />I think there is another angle to the Sea Folk view of the Tower. Rather than distaste, I think they feared the Tower. They hid the number of channelers because they believed (possibly wrongly) that the Aes Sedai would swoop down and take away all their windfinders. They sent a few channelers because they thought it would be suspicious if they didn't, and they sent the weakest because they didn't want to waste the strongest. (By the way, having met Aes Sedai, I think fear has been converted to disdain, but it used to be fear)<br /><br />I don't think the Sea Folk in general fear the influence of Talaan's family. The concern she mentions seems to be about the advancement of apprentices, which of course would be a matter for windfinders alone. The way I read it was that they didn't want anyone to be promoted through family favouritism. I feel this is merely concern from other senior windfinders that Gelyn does not indulge in cronyism, so they keep a sharp eye out. I doubt it actually has anything to do with the non-channelling hierarchy, even the Mistress of the Ships.<br /><br /><br />Finally, I had a few thoughts on clans. I had assumed that people were born into a clan and stayed there, but it would seem that windfinders, at least, can go into any clan. After all, Talaan's family seems to be spread out over several clans. Is it unique to windfinders, or does everyone join a clan only when they come of age and join a ship. Interestingly, it seems from Renaile's case that once a windfinder is part of a clan, they stay that way even after being demoted.


created: 2005-10-29 16:45:17
subject: <b>Not really a fear of channelers....</b>
body:
..maybe I didn't get this across very well in the theory. What I mean is that the Sea Folk seem to promote equality in all sections. Being a channeler is a big advantage and, without the measures they have in place, they could easily become dominant as in nearly all other WoT cultures. In the Guide, it implies that the Sea Folk are much more advanced than other cultures, so I see this as a further indication of that. Most of the time, Windfinders are still high above the average sailor, but they don't let them take over.<br /><br />I would, however, disagree that the Sea Folk don't disdain Aes Sedai. They could get away with sending no channelers to the Tower, just as the Aiel do- though you make a very valid point that they would only send away their weakest women because they are  not as useful. Still, there are non-channeling Wondfinders and all channelers except those sent to the Tower are <i>forced</i> to become Windfinders. Those few that are likely don't have an aptitude for being a Windfinder. <br /><br />It's very interesting that the Aiel treated Aes Sedai so highly, yet the Sea Folk never respected them. They see channelers as being useful, unlike the Seanchan, but don't agree that they are inherently superior. The White Tower is a bloated organisation with influence almost everywhere simply because they can channel. Such an unbalanced view would be as distasteful to them as the notion of a 'superior race' or a society where women are given not even basic rights.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="blue"><img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /> <b>PROUDLY CELEBRATING 10 YEARS OF WOTMANIA!</b></font> <img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /><br /><br /><font color="purple"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <b>FAQ and WoT Admin</b></font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><font color="gray"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> <b>Part-time Philosopher of the Wheel</b> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /></font></font><p><a href="/wotmessageboard2showmessage.asp?MessageID=107993" target="_blank">New WoT quizzes!</a></p><p></p>


created: 2005-10-29 17:02:25
subject: <b>On joining a clan...</b>
body:
I think that anybody can join whichever clan they wish, but traditon means that they join a clan based on where they are born and what clan their family members belong to. A bit like political parties, but with more family influence. <br /><br />All Sea Folk also have tattoos on their hands that state their clan. It is never mentioned when these tatoos are given, but it is probably when they come of age. Windfinders likely change clans more often because they are a rare commodity and go where they are needed - just like any high status job sector. <br /><br />On Windfinders abusing their power, it is faesible that any Windfinder could use the power against another woman or man. They have no Three Oaths - IMO, their system is actually better. It limits there influence rather than forcing them to become more devious.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="blue"><img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /> <b>PROUDLY CELEBRATING 10 YEARS OF WOTMANIA!</b></font> <img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /><br /><br /><font color="purple"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <b>FAQ and WoT Admin</b></font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><font color="gray"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> <b>Part-time Philosopher of the Wheel</b> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /></font></font><p><a href="/wotmessageboard2showmessage.asp?MessageID=107993" target="_blank">New WoT quizzes!</a></p><p></p>


created: 2005-10-30 08:24:05
subject: <b>But at first contact...</b>
body:
... between the Sea Folk and Aes Sedai (or at least people claiming to be Aes Sedai) in the books, when Nynaeve and Elayne got passage to Tarabon, the Sea Folk were very respectful to them. They were initially concerned about letting Nynaeve and Elayne on, but that was because they didn't want Jorin? revealed as a channeler. Otherwise they granted them the same sort of respect as we saw from the Wise Ones when they first met Moiraine.<br /><br />Of course, Coine and Jorin were not very high ranking at the time (and probably still aren't), but they are the first and longest example of Aes Sedai - Sea Folk interaction before the Bargain.<br /><br />The next was when Egwene was dumped in the river, which wasn't very respectful, but it may have been the only way to stop Egwene boarding and &quot;discovering&quot; that windfinders could channel (though I'm not sure why they dropped the ladder down in the first place).<br /><br />After that we have the bargain between Rand and the Sea Folk in Cairhien, at which the Sea Folk were forced to let Aes Sedai on board with Rand. I don't remember the details, but I don't think the Aes Sedai were treated terribly respectfully once Rand had left. However, the cat was already out of the metaporical bag, and Harine needed to get down to bargaining after the d&#233;bacle with Rand. Once they've started bargaining, I think the Sea Folk forget how they view whoever they're bargaining with and just try to get the best deal possible, so I don't believe this incident can be counted.<br /><br />Finally we come to the Bargain between Nynaeve and Elayne and Nesta din Reas. Before the bargaining started, there was some respect, though tempered by the fact that Elayne and Nynaeve were so young, and the fact that they already knew about channeling windfinders. Once the bargaining started the usual bargaining etiquette took over, and afterwards, the Sea Folk no longer had anything to fear from Aes Sedai.<br /><br />The point of all this is that the only real evidence of the Sea Folk view of Aes Sedai came from Coine and Jorin, which was respect combined with fear that they would take Jorin to the Tower. Although they are not terribly high-ranking, this does not mean it is not useful evidence. In the other cultures, the lower classes and the upper classes all have echoing views of women who can channel. In the Westlands, it depends to some extent on the country, but the most common views range from distrust to hate in both nobles and commoner. Among the Aiel, everyone respects Wise Ones, from goatherders to Clan Chiefs. Among the Seanchan, everyone despises channelers.<br /><br />These views are the effect of long years of social evolution. In the Westlands, Aes Sedai were known to meddle and felt they were superior. At the same time, they only took in people who came to them to learn, and these people would obviously be the ones who wanted to be all-powerful, and thus were unlikely to try to change the image of Aes Sedai once fully trained. As a result, mistrust of Aes Sedai is rife in the Westlands.<br /><br />In the Aiel, the Wise Ones have to go to Rhuidean twice, where the Clan Chiefs go only once. This means instant respect. Couple this with the fact that going to Rhuidean twice guarantees that only the best return, and the fact that being a Wise One is possible for talented non-channelers, and you have great resons to respect anyone who reaches the status of Wise One. Years of children being taught to respect Wise Ones add up.<br /><br />In Seanchan, what is essentially indoctrination has taken the culture to a point where channelers are universally despised, even generally by themselves.<br /><br />I am trying to show that the way any culture sees a particular section of society is more due to tradition than rank. This makes my point twofold. First it suggests that Jorin and Coine's view of Aes Sedai is perhaps fairly universal. <br />Secondly it suggests that, because I don't believe the average deckhand is concerned about windfinders becoming too powerful, such a fear is probably not widespread among the upper ranks either. While I agree that Sea Folk hierarchical structure prevents channelers taking over, I don't think this arises from any fear of it happening, or conscious effort on before of the Sea Folk, but rather on the general Sea Folk view, built over many generations since the breaking, of a place for everyone and everyone in their place. Everyone is brought up believing this, so when someone is found to be a channeler, they simply believe that their place is to be a windfinder, without any ambition to be anything greater (this is not to say that ambition doesn't exist among windfinders, but it is limited to advancement in the windfinder ranks).<br /><br />In conclusion, I believe that the general view of Aes Sedai was fear that they would take away all the windfinders, until the Bargain meant that this was no longer an issue.<br />Also, I believe that limits on windfinders' influence is more to do with natural social evolution than any social engineering.<br /><br />Sorry about the long post <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />.


created: 2005-10-30 08:25:51
subject: <b>great job!</b>
body:
I liked it, and the attention to detail is superb. It's just a shame I can't make myself like the sea folk because of the stupid terms of the bargain they made with Rand. The dragon reborn has more important things to do than meet with the mistress of ships - saving the world for example. Still, none of that has anything to do with your theory, which didn't annoy me and had no stupid terms at all! Well done!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> let the speedbart ride again upon the winds of time <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Made the second post on the new WoTMB2 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-10-30 13:32:33
subject: <b>A nice tribute to the Athean Miere</b>
body:
Don`t have any quarrel with your Theory.<br /><br />I can see it changing, along with all other cultures and societies, after going through Tarmon Gaidon.<br /><br />As they are now, it is very, very difficult for me to like the vast majority!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2005-10-30 13:34:53
subject:
<b>You get my vote!!  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /></b>

body:
I love that it's a theory on something &quot;new&quot; and it reads so well ..it needs to be a FAQ. Kudos...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>you know you can't leave Wotmania. It's kinda like herpes, you can just never really get rid of it.</i><br />Kit <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /></font><p><a href="http://www.cbgxtra.com/" target="_blank">Comics Buyer's Guide XTRA</a></p><p></p>


created: 2005-10-30 15:35:46
subject: <b>Nice theory</b>
body:
A well written and nicely set out theory. I would like to see it added to the FAQ. Congrats <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">A One Power researcher<br />Defender of Lanfear<br />Grand Ninja-Nae'blis to be feared <br />Original Warder to Isa <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br />New Warder to Nossie <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />Toy to Seriana <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/winky.gif" border="0" /><br />Mystified by a Fan <br />Bonded Phelix - I was young, it happened so fast.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-10-30 17:04:55
subject: <b>It will be added to the FAQ...</b>
body:
..though I will tighten up the aspects that are speculation and add more quotes. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="blue"><img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /> <b>PROUDLY CELEBRATING 10 YEARS OF WOTMANIA!</b></font> <img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /><br /><br /><font color="purple"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <b>FAQ and WoT Admin</b></font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><font color="gray"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> <b>Part-time Philosopher of the Wheel</b> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /></font></font><p><a href="/wotmessageboard2showmessage.asp?MessageID=107993" target="_blank">New WoT quizzes!</a></p><p></p>


