# w_comment

created: 2006-01-10 15:48:56
subject: <b>sickness</b>
body:
Just wanted to put in a comment about the sickness that Rand feels when he channels.  I think the majority opinion these days is that the sickness is a result of the two wounds in his side battling against each other.  The awful effects of that battle are felt much more when he takes hold of the power, because his senses are heightened.   We know from the cleansing of the source that the evil of Aridhol and the evil of the dark one are two very different kinds of evil and will cancel each other out.. but not before they do a lot of damage (ie. the destruction of Shadar Logoth).   This same battle is taking place within Rand's body and definitely can't be good for him.   He probably doesn't feel at peak shape any time of the day, but when he embraces the source, that sickness is magnified and he feels sick.    His body probably acclimates itself to the pain after a while so a while after he touches the source he doesn't feel as sick, but the initial shock always overwhelms him.  Until this battle in his body is finished he will continue to feel the effects.<br /><br />Hope that helps with that point.


created: 2007-01-04 05:00:15
subject: <b>Concerning the Horn of Valere and other ramblings</b>
body:
This is just a thought, but for all we know, the Horn of Valere..which is a ter'angreal has not been used since the Age of Legends which would not prove one way or the other that LTT was a hero of the horn.  That being said I do believe he is spun and re-spun from the Wheel of Time when he is needed and that when Artur Hawkwing spoke of fighting along side LTT as well as against him has nothing to do with LTT being a HOTH, but the fact that they were spun out since the beginning of time and have either stood together and faced it each other as such as the Pattern needed.<br />As far as LTT's voice in Rand's head, wouldn't it be funny to ponder if it is Rand Al'Thor having Lews Therin Telamon's thoughts, or Lew's Therin Telamon having Rand Al'Thor's thoughts?...it would explain LTT's madness if a split in time occured and he was seeing things through Rand's eyes hence his breaking the world fighting &quot;invisible&quot; foes?...hmm..guess we'll find out when this is all over...or not.  Either way, it is an interesting theory and I would atleast say somewhat plausible despite the fact that I'm not sure LTT was a HOTH.


created: 2008-05-08 18:57:55
subject: <b>LTT Madness</b>
body:
My guess is that Ishy managed to heakl LTT's madness from the Taint, but he couldn't do anything, inded did not want to heal the more &quot;normal&quot; madness of realising that you have killed everyone you love. Lets face it: if someone tricked you into killing your own loved ones in the same manner as LTT was you would go mad from remorse, you don't need a supernatural influence for this kind of madness.<br /><br />But the Dragon is probably a Hero of the Horn, how can he not be? He's the very soul that the Creator has placed in the Pattern to block the Dark One from destroying it.<br /><br />As for another, no I don't think Ishamael is a Ta'veren, tho he migth have been &quot;gifted&quot; by the Dark One with some simmilar abillities, thus enabling him to disort the pattern to a greater degree.


created: 2005-02-16 08:52:54
subject: <b>Probably not the return of standing flows</b>
body:
I have generally regarded the BoW's local effect on the OP as one of the more interesting mysteries of the series.  As you point out, the weather was controlled by standing flows in the AoL.  However, I think that the chaotic weather effects resulting from the use of the BoW, as well as general intuition, support an inference that meteorologists (or whatever they were called) in the AoL probably acted on the weather in a coordinated fashion in many different locations.  That, in and of itself, does not contradict your theory - there could have been dozens of BoWs scattered throughout the world at strategic points.<br /><br />What nags at me is Dashiva's (Aginor's) surprise at the what happens to Saidin.  He was clearly apprenhensive about the effect the BoW was having on Saidin (not that he knew the cause).  However, as a fairly old AoL'er and a brilliant naturalist, he must have had some familiarty with the way the ancients maintained the environment (even if he was an indoors type of guy).  But this seems utterly foreign to him.<br /><br />Take also the Sea Folk's reaction at discovering the Wondergirls had the BoW.  They were extremely pleased and mentioned their joy at recovering the BoW -- meaning that they had it before.  The Sea Folk did not become a culture - or a &quot;they&quot; - until after the Breaking drove their ancestors onto the seas.  Those ancestors knew nothing of their ships or of navigation.  It is therefore unlikely that they had access to or thought to bring with them such a ter'angreal.  The BoW probably came into their hands - whether through creation or discovery or trading - well after the Breaking.<br /><br />Put Aginor's surprise together with the Sea Folk's history and you get, I believe, a fairly convincing basis for arguing that the BoW was created after the Breaking or else was unused and largely unknown during the AoL.  For this reason, I think it is unlikely that the use of the BoW is the beginning of new standing flows to control the weather.  Rather, I think that it was a ter'angreal designed for local weather control that has created crazy, chaotic weather by virtue of the Girls' excessive ambition in its use.<br /><br />It is further conceivable that although the BoW countermanded the DO's withering heat, he is using the momentum of such reversal to push the world too far the other way.<br /><br /><br />TFK


created: 2005-02-16 10:23:24
subject: <b>Huzzah....</b>
body:
I actually had not thought the effect to have been caused by the bowl of the winds at all; I thought it was pointed out that something else had caused it. Upon reflection, the 'intuitively obvious' that I thought doesn't seem so intuitive after all...  Perfect theory fodder!<br /><br />*busily starts writing his first WOT theory*<br /><br />As for the saidin and saidar twisting, I don't thinkthat the very nature of the One Power would be altered by any flow, standing or otherwise. I will attempt to explain it in this upcoming theory with the working title, &quot;Disturbance in the pattern:  Why the flows are odd near Ebou Dar&quot;


created: 2005-02-16 10:52:13
subject: <b>RJ has covered this...</b>
body:
RJ has confirmed through interviews and signings that the weirdness of the OP has to do with the the BoW being overstressed and used beyond it's attempt. The use of saidin or the presence of male channelers would not have made any difference. Below are some of related resonses from RJ that I could find in a quick search on line.<br /><br /><br />Q: The general consensus seems to be that the Bowl of Winds caused the weirdness in the power around Ebou Dar. Do we know enough at this time to determine the true cause or do we have to RAFO more info?  <br />A: I think you know enough by this point. It is intuitively obvious to the most casual observer. I always hated it when my math professors said that. <br /><br />The Bowl: Someone asked him whether, if men had helped the Aes Sedai and Windfinders and Kin channel through the Bowl, the One Power would still have been screwed up.  His implicit assumption was that the Bowl screwed things up.  I expected this to be a sheer RAFO. I was surprised.  He went into a relatively detailed explanation to the effect that the Bowl was stressed far, far beyond its original design parameters because of the  <br />advanced knowledge of the Windfinders.  It was affecting a global pattern, when it was designed for only a small region.  Men helping would not have changed anything, and the effects linger most strongly near Ebou Dar, but  <br />also along the &quot;spokes&quot; which radiated from that place.  (I should have asked if a spoke went out over Tear.)  My comment: Nyah-nyah. <br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Need a book to read - check out my blog for ideas.</font><p><a href="http://nethspace.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">Neth Space</a></p><p></p>


created: 2005-02-16 11:20:51
subject: <b>I wonder...</b>
body:
if other OP objects used far beyond their normal capacity would also mess up the OP.  The access keys to the CK used at the Cleansing melted (or at least one did, can't remember offhand).  <br /><br /><br />TFK


created: 2005-02-16 11:29:28
subject: <b>RJ big surprise in KoD</b>
body:
Could this be the wonderful event that will cause the horrible unforeseen consequences that RJ has been hinting at in KoD. That the overuse of BoW will have dire consequences on the OP. If the &#8220;Keeping&#8221; weaves are failing on the rebels supplies, what does that mean for the already weakened seals holding the DO back.<br /><br />


created: 2005-02-16 12:13:26
subject: <b>Aha!</b>
body:
ooooooooooooo     KCF....<br /><br />That quote is something i coulda' used, had I know it when writing my theory. It is submitted now, awaiting editing n' aproval.<br /><br />' I think you know enough by this point. It is intuitively obvious to the most casual observer  '<br /><br />brilliant sidestepping! Not saying yea or nay. And to the fellow that had his mind made up already, RJ went into detail about the Bowl, and its effect on the weather. Not the effect on the One Power.<br /><br /><br />Stay tuned, for what was intuitively obvious to this casual observer,<br />                  -- Omner Garamonde<br />


created: 2005-02-16 12:19:01
subject: <b>Omnar...</b>
body:
Just add the quote, make changes and re-submit the theory. Send a NB to Simon describing what you did, he'll submit the right theory if it's up to par.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Need a book to read - check out my blog for ideas.</font><p><a href="http://nethspace.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">Neth Space</a></p><p></p>


created: 2005-02-16 16:42:57
subject: <b>My thoughts</b>
body:
hmm, i wonder a bit about the use of the term &quot;standing flows&quot;<br /> i always understood it as a kind of power supply, acessable by anyone, like elektricity in our days. NO twist of the OP- just a steady energie flow, maybe created by he OP, maybe not.<br />


created: 2005-02-16 17:00:07
subject: <b>I query the statement that weather was controlled by standing flows</b>
body:
because Moridin in The Path of Daggers said that &quot;in the AOL the weather was carefully controlled by weather ter'angreal.&quot;<br /><br />That is ter'angreal like the Bowl of Winds.<br /><br />Not standing flows.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> Linda Sedai <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Proud member of the Embroiderer's Guild of the White Tower<br /><br /><b><font color="red">FAQ admin</font></b> </font>'cos the FAQ is where it's at.<br /><br /><b>Currently working on:</b> my 70th FAQ<p><a href="http://13depository.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">The thirteenth depository : A Wheel of Time blog</a></p><p></p>


created: 2005-02-16 19:52:49
subject: <b>The cause of the strangeness</b>
body:
I had always thought the strangeness had something to do with Elayne's exploding half-unwoven gateway. When I read the responses that RJ gave on the topic, I do not see anything implying that the strangeness was actually caused by the BoW.<br /><br />To requote them,<br />&gt;Q: The general consensus seems to be that the Bowl of Winds &gt;caused the weirdness in the power around Ebou Dar. Do we &gt;know enough at this time to determine the true cause or do &gt;we have to RAFO more info? <br />&gt;A: I think you know enough by this point. It is intuitively &gt;obvious to the most casual observer. I always hated it when &gt;my math professors said that.<br /><br />Why would RJ deflect the question if he thought it intuitively obvious? If the general consensus were correct, then why did he feel the need to word it this way?<br /><br />&gt;The Bowl: Someone asked him whether, if men had helped the &gt;Aes Sedai and Windfinders and Kin channel through the Bowl, &gt;the One Power would still have been screwed up. His &gt;implicit assumption was that the Bowl screwed things up. I &gt;expected this to be a sheer RAFO. I was surprised. He went &gt;into a relatively detailed explanation to the effect that &gt;the Bowl was stressed far, far beyond its original design &gt;parameters because of the <br />&gt;advanced knowledge of the Windfinders. It was affecting a &gt;global pattern, when it was designed for only a small &gt;region. Men helping would not have changed anything, and &gt;the effects linger most strongly near Ebou Dar, but <br />&gt;also along the &quot;spokes&quot; which radiated from that place.<br /><br />Read the description here again - even if men had helped use the bowl of the winds, the OP would still be screwed up. Why? Because there is no link between them. This sounds like RJ style humour - he is much like an AS, 'the truth he speaks may not be the truth you think you hear'.<br /><br />The 'effects' that RJ was refering to was the weather effects - the weather was most strongly affected near Ebou Dar, and after that along the 'spokes' of the flow, while the rest of the world is back to a normal flow of the weather. I would need to see the transcript of the question and answer to be certain, but this is how I see it.<br /><br />-Aielyn<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Asmodean is alive and posing as Sammael!<br /><br />Sammael <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sammy.gif" border="0" /> is Sparticus.<br /><br />No, I'm Sparticus! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /> = <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />I'm Herid Fel Reborn!!!!! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shy.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-02-17 03:19:54
subject: <b>It was the Bowl of the winds</b>
body:
I think there is too much evidence to support the BoW = strangeness in the OP.<br />1. The very first mention of the strangeness was immediately after the BoW&#8217;s use, when Elayne made her fatal gateway. &quot;The flows wavered in her grasp almost as if trying to twist free, then snapped into place so suddenly she jumped; channelling when you were tired was not at all like other times, but this was the worst ever.&quot; (TPoD, 146, pb)  RJ uses his classic trick where the character dismisses a vital clue for something &#8220;more plausible.&#8221; Some might argue that it was a bum gateway to begin with and that the unweaving and subsequent explosion caused the strangeness that followed. But there is other evidence against that theory.<br />2. The strangeness is centered around Ebou Dar. If you read chapters 21-24 in tPoD, and pay attention to all the references of the strangeness of Sadin, it is obvious that the closer they get to Ebou Dar the greater the strangeness.<br />3. One of the Asha&#8217;man mentioned the strangeness was noticeable for at least 100 miles around Ebou Dar. However, Elayne&#8217;s Gateway exploded in both Ebou Dar and in Andor, but she never mentions any strangeness in Saidar after the explosion. We know that she did because she was studying the cache of ter&#8217;angreals on her trip to Caemlyn. So, it is unlikely the gateway was the cause. If it were, then we would see the strangeness in Andor. <br />4. The strangeness is affecting Saidin and Saidar. The gateway only used Saidar while the BoW used both. Again, I find it unlikely that a weave that uses only Saidar could affect Saidin to such a great degree.<br />5. Moridin tells us that the BoW was a ter&#8217;angreal used to control the weather in AoL, and that a single Windfinder could manipulate the weather unaided to a degree that would have required a weather ter&#8217;angreal in the AoL. He also mentions that it was only meant to be used on a relatively small area.<br />6. 13 of this age&#8217;s most powerful channeller and guided by a someone with skills in manipulating weather that is far beyond the abilities of anyone when the BoW was likely made, are using a ter&#8217;angreal that was designed to manipulate the weather in a small region to effect the weather on a global scale. Now, does that sound like an over-worked weather maker or what?<br /><br />So given all of this it seems pretty obvious that the only major event that could of caused the strangeness in the OP is the over use of the BoW. Unless something MAJOR happened at the same time the BoW was used that we did not see, the only thing it could have been was the BoW.<br /><br />I am sure most of this, if not all of it, has been covered else where, but I think it bears repeating.<br /><br />gandalf79


created: 2005-02-22 09:20:38
subject: <b>To Aielyn</b>
body:
I also thought that the strangeness was caused by Elayne's gateway, until I heard about Jordan's description and recalled other things (listed nicely ahead of this post by gandalf79.<br /><br />However, I do not think we have seen the end of Elayne's unwoven gateway--it will have reperussions that we have not yet seen.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Who we were is lost to all men, and life is bitter.&quot;<br />&quot;Expect nothing, and you will not be surprised.&quot;  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-11-06 17:47:47
subject: <b>ummm</b>
body:
the standing flows were put there. duh<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>It's not apples and oranges, but no one paying attention could compare these apples without noticing: <br />(a) one is 12 times bigger and <br />(b) both of them are rutabagas.</i></font><p></p>


created: 2005-02-17 07:39:28
subject: <b>Very nicely done!!</b>
body:
I enjoyed this, stats and all!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="blue">Bondholder of Neroto Yoduff &amp; TEO<br />Sce`c of Nicodemus26 The Mighty Midget<br />Ambassador Isa ~ The Rebel Blue!<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /></font></font><p></p>


created: 2005-02-17 08:02:55
subject: <b>thoughts...</b>
body:
Graendal/737/126/1<br />Sammael/678/116/2<br />Moridin/Ishamael/602/104/3<br />Lanfear/Cyndane/557/88/4<br />Slayer/557/85/5<br />Mesaana/569/83/6<br />Taim/484/77/7<br />Shaidar Haran/504/68/8<br />Gholam/449/59/9<br />Padan Fain/321/28/10<br />Aiel Wise One/324/27/11<br />Bashere/237/17/12<br /><br />okay as i cannot see the reasons that you have put for these statistics i am going off a limb a bit, so please excuse anything that looks like an attack on your theory.<br /><br /><b>Lanfear/Cyndane</b><br />however i would like to pick at some flaws here. Firstly would Asmodean recognise Lanfear/Cyndane in her new form, unlikely, also it seems quite soon after her demise and i feel that Moridin or SH would have 'punished' her for her betrayals for while. Saying that, though, she could now be Moridin's pawn and thus in a perfect position to act as an assassin to the new Nae'blis' wishes to punish Asmo the betrayer. This is assuming that Lanfear wsa reincarnated straight away and that Ishy was too. It did take Aginor and Balthamel five books to be reincarnated, and they were loyal.<br /><br /><b>Padan Fain</b><br />As far as i knew he was only Ishamael's servant, would Asmo knew what he looked like? Also why, what is the motive? Next how is he bale to get around, is he even in the immediate area at the time, i would have placed him closer to the Two Rivers, or perhaps trying to worm his way into Riatin's service.<br /><br /><b>Taim</b><br />Again, would he be recognised? Only introduced in LoC, unless we assume that he is a high ranking DF like Alviarin, it is doubtful that Asmo would know his face. Motive? Perhaps to remove someone who knows his face if he wsa going to get close to Rand, this again assuming that Asmo knows him, so perhaps.<br /><br /><b>Bashere</b><br />This seems the most ridiculous to me. Why? How? It just doesn't seem to add up.<br /><br /><b>Aeil Wise One</b><br />Again, why?<br /><br /><b>Sammael</b><br />Erm, little to pick at here, i guess my only query would be is, wouldn't Rand be slightly suspicious when he sensed a nearby channeler, even if for a brief moment, even if needing only the slightest amount of the OP.<br /><br /><b>Gholam</b><br />Yes, but they're pretty messy killers and there wasn't any sign of a struggle really was there. Also he'd need to carry the body away and i'm not sure he has those capabilities, afterall the corpse wouldn't become boneless.<br /><br /><b>Shaidar Haran</b><br />Destroy body-yes<br />Move around undetected-yes<br />recognisable-no<br />around yet- unlikely<br /><br />If Asmo saw SH would he know his significance? or would he just think him another myrdrraal and as such would he refer to him as 'you'? is he even existing yet, or is he only 'made' later.<br /><br /><b>Mesaana</b><br />no qualms<br /><br /><b>Graendal</b><br />also fine<br /><br /><b>Slayer</b><br />My favourite. however how recognisable would he be? wsa used and seen by all the forsaken?<br /><br /><b>My Thoughts on Asmo</b><br />If you remember, a reincarnated Forsaken needs a body to have their 'soul' stuffed into. Now Taim was mysteriously swiped from a group of AS, no mean feat and when he returns to Rand's court, Bashere inititally doesn't think that it is him at all.<br /><br />Now soon after Taim's escape, Asmo disappears. I believe that he was taken away, killed and stuffed into Taim's body to then return to Rand service. It would explain Taim's contempt to swords, his contempt for AS and his strength in the OP, among other things. But would the DO allow Asmo so much freedom after helping Rand, he's not exactly noted for his mercy or understanding....<br /><br />However RJ, makes it all seem like a very simple thing, so perhaps this isn't the case at all, but i like it!!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">idealism not pragmatism</font><p></p>


created: 2005-02-17 08:25:52
subject: <b>Impressive!</b>
body:
I'm amazed, tell me, are you a statistician? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br />Congrats anyway..<br />I'm just a little sorry mu suspect has been discarded that fast.. Moiraine, I know I know she's no evident suspect but still.. But I might be more than a little biased here <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br />In my &quot;heart&quot; I don't think Graendal did it but I agree she's the most plausible suspect of all..<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="purple">Lady Isa</font><br /><br /><font color="pink">nominated WoTboard's Moiraine AND Mesaana</font><br /><font color="blue">Member of the Fearsome Four</font><br /><font color="crimson">Bonded to Sidious and Phil</font><br /><font color="green">Cindy is one <i>Green</i> Redneck</font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <font color="violet"><b>July 12th 2008</b></font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-02-17 10:14:05
subject: <b>to Foxhead</b>
body:
Your comments are not a direct attack on my theory in anyway. What they are is a reflection on the uncertainties that need to be addressed about the murder. All of these uncertainties were hopefully taken into account by the individuals who scored the matrix - I know I did. I'll go ahead and address some them anyway - since I'm prone to discussion on this topic.<br /><br /><b><br />Lanfear/Cyndane<br />however i would like to pick at some flaws here. Firstly would Asmodean recognise Lanfear/Cyndane in her new form, unlikely, also it seems quite soon after her demise and i feel that Moridin or SH would have 'punished' her for her betrayals for while. Saying that, though, she could now be Moridin's pawn and thus in a perfect position to act as an assassin to the new Nae'blis' wishes to punish Asmo the betrayer. This is assuming that Lanfear wsa reincarnated straight away and that Ishy was too. It did take Aginor and Balthamel five books to be reincarnated, and they were loyal.</b><br /><br />We don't know when Lanfear died - but everyone agrees that Asmodean would not recognise Cyndane. The thoughts are that if she killed him she did it before she was killed or if she did afterwards, she used a MoM so Asmodean would recognise her. The biggest problem with Lanfear is timing - she disappeared into the ter'angreal about 6 to 12 hours prior to Asmodean's death and time appears to move faster in finnland. Even if she was granted wishes (which is very debatable), it is unclear how effective they could have been with the limits on finn powers. It also is difficult to explain how she 'held' by the finns which we know from Cyndane's thoughts later. Lanfear likely would evennot be a suspect if Asmodean wasn't thinking about her before he was killed.<br /><br />Another comment - Moridin was not yet named as Nae'blis at this time - in fact he wasn't even introduced until ACOS. Also, RJ has said in interviews that the DO did not order Asmodean's death.<br /><br /><b><br />Padan Fain<br />As far as i knew he was only Ishamael's servant, would Asmo knew what he looked like? Also why, what is the motive? Next how is he bale to get around, is he even in the immediate area at the time, i would have placed him closer to the Two Rivers, or perhaps trying to worm his way into Riatin's service.</b><br /><br />Fain is long gone from the Two Rivers at this time. We know that he was in TV about 2 months before Asmodean was killed. And we also know that he was in Caemlyn about 2 months after Asmodean's death. So there is about 4 months of unaccounted for time when Fain is in the region. It is quite possible that he was in Caemlyn - but it is an unknown. Also, as you point out, we have no evidence that Asmodean would even recognise Fain.<br /><br /><b><br />Taim<br />Again, would he be recognised? Only introduced in LoC, unless we assume that he is a high ranking DF like Alviarin, it is doubtful that Asmo would know his face. Motive? Perhaps to remove someone who knows his face if he wsa going to get close to Rand, this again assuming that Asmo knows him, so perhaps.</b><br /><br />Yes, the recognition issue is very hard to explain. Also, it is difficult to explain how Taim would have know about Asmodean in the first place. Creative stories can be invented to explain these issues, but there is a lack of supporting evidence.<br /><br /><b><br />Bashere<br />This seems the most ridiculous to me. Why? How? It just doesn't seem to add up.</b><br /><br />The Bashere case is almost entirely based on the fact that he shows up to talk to Rand with wine in hand - remember Asmodean was looking for wine at the time he was killed. It is hard to explain issues such as recognition, how he would know to kill Asmodean, and how he could kill a channeler and dispose of the body. You are correct - he is a pretty ridiculous suspect.<br /><br /><b><br />Aeil Wise One<br />Again, why?<br /></b><br /><br />Yes, again hard to explain. I included essentially every suspect I have ever heard of being proposed. Many people believe that at least one WO is a DF. A lot of holes to get past to explain how this could work - hence the very low scores.<br /><br /><b><br />Sammael<br />Erm, little to pick at here, i guess my only query would be is, wouldn't Rand be slightly suspicious when he sensed a nearby channeler, even if for a brief moment, even if needing only the slightest amount of the OP.</b><br /><br />Evidence seems to support that males cannot sense other male channelers in the same ways as females - in simpler terms, even though Rand was close, he probably wasn't close enough to sense a male channeling.<br /><br /><b><br />Gholam<br />Yes, but they're pretty messy killers and there wasn't any sign of a struggle really was there. Also he'd need to carry the body away and i'm not sure he has those capabilities, afterall the corpse wouldn't become boneless.<br /></b><br /><br />yep - many issues here as well, reflected in the low scores.<br /><br /><b><br />Shaidar Haran<br />Destroy body-yes<br />Move around undetected-yes<br />recognisable-no<br />around yet- unlikely<br /><br />If Asmo saw SH would he know his significance? or would he just think him another myrdrraal and as such would he refer to him as 'you'? is he even existing yet, or is he only 'made' later.</b><br /><br />Another point is that why would Asmodean address a myydraal as an equal? they are tools. We actually know that he is around at the beginning of LOC - the 'gars see him, Demandred sees him, Semirhage sees him, and he referenced by Mesaana.<br /><br /><b><br />Slayer<br />My favourite. however how recognisable would he be? wsa used and seen by all the forsaken?</b><br /><br />RJ has said in interviews that Slayer would be recognisable to all forsaken. However, there are still many holes in that theory as well. Did we really have enough clues to know of his powers - I argue no (though others certainly disagree). Also, he is not even mentioned in TFOH - the last time we see him is when he runs from the Two Rivers after Perrrin has shot him with an arrow in TAR - this is many months previous.<br /><br /><b>My Thoughts on Asmo<br />If you remember, a reincarnated Forsaken needs a body to have their 'soul' stuffed into. Now Taim was mysteriously swiped from a group of AS, no mean feat and when he returns to Rand's court, Bashere inititally doesn't think that it is him at all.<br /><br />Now soon after Taim's escape, Asmo disappears. I believe that he was taken away, killed and stuffed into Taim's body to then return to Rand service. It would explain Taim's contempt to swords, his contempt for AS and his strength in the OP, among other things. But would the DO allow Asmo so much freedom after helping Rand, he's not exactly noted for his mercy or understanding....</b><br /><br />This is very unlikely. We don't have any real evidence for this. Also, when the DO speaks to Demandred in LOC, he indicates that Asmodean is a traitor and will not be receiving immortality - why would the DO reward Asmodean in this way and place next to Rand again? It does not add up. The timing is also pretty difficult to explain away.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Need a book to read - check out my blog for ideas.</font><p><a href="http://nethspace.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">Neth Space</a></p><p></p>


created: 2005-02-17 10:18:24
subject: <b>Moridin</b>
body:
Lets not forget that we have seen Moridin help kill one of his fellow Choosen at Shadar Loagoth.<br /><br />I feel if it was one of the fosaken they would most likely send one of their lackies to do the job. Thus, Slayer.<br /><br />gandalf79


created: 2005-02-17 10:27:19
subject: <b>For those curious...</b>
body:
No, I am not a statistician, as I'm sure is clear to any that are out there. I am a scientist (a geologist by training and practice), so I approach things from a very scientific approach. I'm very familiar with piecing together limited amounts of evidence with varying degrees of uncertaintity to figure out how something most likely happened.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Need a book to read - check out my blog for ideas.</font><p><a href="http://nethspace.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">Neth Space</a></p><p></p>


created: 2005-02-17 10:40:41
subject: <b>Well...</b>
body:
&quot;figures lie and liars figure,&quot; as they say.<br /><br />However, RJ said it was intuitively obvious. And, working through the matrix, I found that my pet assassin wasn't who made most logical choice.<br /><br />Thought this was a well done project &amp; was glad/honored to be a part.<br /><br />Thanks again for the work you poured into this.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;These guys are special... These are crack soldiers... They are everywhere&#8230;yes, they really have us by our balls here&#8230; Can you get us out of here?&#8221;<br />Zarqawi about 3/504 PIR</font><p></p>


created: 2005-02-17 11:25:09
subject: <b>Interesting,</b>
body:
I, too, am surprised to see Moridin at number three.  He isn't even on my list of suspects.  Of course, my list has been whittled down to just three.  Graendal, Sammael, and Taim.  It was a bit disappointing to see Taim so far down, but I suppose I understand.  He is still my second favorite candidate for who did it.<br /><br />Good job to all those involved.  It was interesting and different enough that I could read it.  Most the time, anymore, I just skip anything that says Asmodean in it since I tend to feel that the horse is dead.


created: 2005-02-17 12:22:53
subject: <b>A fresh perspective</b>
body:
Always refreshing to see a clear view on the Asmo mystery.  Clearly, here at wotmania we're biased towards the Graendal-dunnit theories, but I wonder what would happen if you would give the survey to people from Dragonmount, or somewhere else?  Would Lanfear come up on top?  Or (heaven forbid) Moridin?<br /><br />I've been trying to keep an open mind on the Asmo issue, so I frequently sway back and forth between a few suspects.  Like Fred, my choices are kind of limited, between Graendal, Sammael, Taim, and Slayer (well, really only in moments of weakness).  It's really too bad that we have no idea what clues RJ put in POD or LOC that we could &quot;figure it out&quot; by the end of those books.  It pains me to think that RJ will never tell us who killed Asmo (out of pure spite, of course, &lt;maniacal laughter from the shadows&gt; ).<br /><br />Anyways, just wanted to compliment you on a job well done!  And I was wondering, how does one qualify as being an &quot;expert&quot;?  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" />  Just kidding.


created: 2005-02-17 13:28:15
subject: <b>I liked it and thought it was a different way to skin a cat.</b>
body:
I got flamed because I thought it was Ishmael/Mordin on the MB.  I agree with the top 3 that your project results have ranked, maybe not the order.  But since I have been frequenting this site a little more often of late,  I have decided to keep an open mind.  I agree that the top 3 could have done it.  But I think more weight would need to be placed on the weapon and disposal of the body.  The only logical way one of the t3 would have done it was via Bale Fire (2 birds with 1 stone).  The amount of OP used to weave bale fire &amp; to travel would have tipped of Rand &amp; Avi respectively.  They would not have detected the TP.<br /><br />But I also think you should have added another suspect, RJ.  I think he needed Asmodean out of the story.  I do not think he even suspected that the fans/readers would have made this event into such a big deal.  He thought he wrote enough evidences to have multiple suspects, and that it was plausible for somebody to kill Asmo at that time.  He assumed that we the readers would accept that Asmo was killed and move forward with the story.<br /><br />So basically RJ didn&#8217;t have a designated killer at the time he wrote it.  There were multiple suspects with legitimate reasons to kill Amso.  We should have accepted the only fact that he tried to communicate to us.  Asmodean is dead!  He does not have anything else to do with the series.<br /><br />That my fellow WoTmaniacs is the truth about the demise of Asmodean.  Everything we get now, is RJ trying to put us off and find a way that makes sense so we can drop it.<br />


created: 2005-02-17 15:24:41
subject: <b>...</b>
body:
Let us not forget that Robert Jordan said that we **MET** the killer in book FIVE. That would clear off a large chunk of suspects I would think.


created: 2005-02-17 17:30:59
subject: <b>Huh?</b>
body:
Where does it say that, Kison?<br /><br />And I don't understand why Semirhage was removed from the list of suspects.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">BOOBIES</font><p></p>


created: 2005-02-17 17:54:12
subject: <b>Logical yes but</b>
body:
the biggest problem I have w/ Graendal as killer is RJ's comment that most (almost all, I think he said (?)) people get the killer wrong in letters to him.  As Graendal is the &quot;most logical choice,&quot; he must get lots of letters w/ her being the murderer.  I don't know whether you had the contributors to your theory consider this under part of the &quot;RJ clues&quot; section of the matrix.  And who knows? I wouldn't be that surprized if RJ's letter comment has been mis-quoted or he intentionally said it to cause confusion, just for the hell of it.<br />    But good job putting a new spin on an old topic!  (by the way, it was Sammy!)


created: 2005-02-17 22:46:00
subject: <b>COLUMBO'S LIST OF SUSPECTS INCLUDES.......</b>
body:
......ONLY TWO!<br /><br />1. Lanfear.  Re; The Homicide Theory.<br />2. Greandal. See Jeordam.<br /><br />In my mind, non other than the two I've listed above are viable suspects.<br /><br /><br />Columbo.<br /><br />P.S. Sammy doesn't fit the profile and you have no motive.  Moridin?????  HELLO!  No chance.....none!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2005-02-17 23:46:44
subject: <b>RJ's comments</b>
body:
I agree with your stats, though the only thing that needs to be added is RJ's comment, isn't that it should be intuitively obvious? That would seem to rule out any recently dead characters who we don't know have been resurected as off Asmodean's dead, or would it?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Incantrix <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-02-18 04:25:02
subject: <b>You did a very good job, Ken</b>
body:
And a very nice analysis.<br /><br />I was glad to have taken part.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> Linda Sedai <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Proud member of the Embroiderer's Guild of the White Tower<br /><br /><b><font color="red">FAQ admin</font></b> </font>'cos the FAQ is where it's at.<br /><br /><b>Currently working on:</b> my 70th FAQ<p><a href="http://13depository.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">The thirteenth depository : A Wheel of Time blog</a></p><p></p>


created: 2005-02-18 08:26:01
subject: <b>Good,</b>
body:
I've always thought Greandal myself. So, maybe that is a commen WoTmania bias...<br /><br />Correct me if im wrong, wasn't sammael already dead? or did that happen in LoC? I can never remember which climax goes with which book...<br /><br />good theory, however! I like most of the reasoning<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">-Sabin<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-02-18 09:45:52
subject:
<b><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /></b>

body:
Oh my god you're a genius!!! I lovelovelovelove this! When I grow up, I wanna be among the top theory-writers like you, too! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perplexed.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smackhead.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /> LLT <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-02-18 09:49:20
subject: <b>Asmo Theory</b>
body:
First of all, congrats on a great theory.<br /><br />Two things: <br /><br />First, there is evidence that men can detect channeling.  Unfortunately, I don't have my book with me right now, but there is a line in The Fires of Heaven where Rand tells Asmodean (to paraphrase) &quot;If I had felt you channel during the battle, I would have killed you.&quot;<br /><br />My thought has always been that the killer was either a woman, because anyone else who felt a woman channeling would not have thought it a cause for concern, or someone channeling the True Power.  Shaidar Haran has always been my favorite dark horse candidate.<br /><br />I must also add that I'm a big fan of the &quot;Moiraine was evil&quot; theories.  I'm not implying I believe Moriaine was a darkfriend or a member of the Black Ajah, but I read a theory that Moiraine had freed Padan Fain at Fal Dara and let him take his dagger because she knew that would induce Rand to go after the horn.  It made sense to me.  The idea that Moiraine killed Asmo just seems to make sense, too.<br /><br />Her letter to Rand tells him she knew about Asmo's teachings.  Maybe she felt that he posed too great a risk and Rand had learned as much as he could.<br /><br />My vote would be either Moiraine or Shaidar Haran.


created: 2005-02-18 14:38:40
subject: <b>Padan Fain</b>
body:
going waaaaaay back in the story here, In The Eye of the World, when they are actually AT the Eye of the World, Aginor and Balthamel?  show up and point at Mat and say &quot;He lead us here, an ancient enemy, and an old friend&quot; or something to that effect.<br /><br />FAST FORWARD<br /><br />Asmodean perhaps doesn't recognize his killer, but recognize's the taint from Shadar Logoth IN his killer.<br /><br />It seems to me, and I'm not an expert, but if Aginor and whats his name recognize the taint Mat has in tEotW, should not all Forsaken, including Asmodeon recognize that same taint in Padan Fain?<br />


created: 2005-02-19 07:11:11
subject: <b>a friend asked me to post this comment here on his behalf</b>
body:
I personnally have not so much addiction to Asmo issues, but this theory impressed me with the amount of work done and with the original approach and I told about it in another WoT site (Theoryland), and it attracted some interest. One friend from there asked me to post here this comment on his behalf.<br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Very Fun!<br /><br />Have you considered the study with certain assumptions taken into account? For example, if we KNEW that Moridin was active in FoH, how would he rank then? Similarly, if we KNEW that Lanfear was freed almost immediately from the Finns, how would she rank? I got the impression that your participants were allowing for the possibility, but not considering those possibilities as certainties. <br /><br />What about bias against someone? Some participants may not only have a bias for someone, but a strong bias against someone in particular. Could that also be pushing down scores of non-Graendal candidates? I note that Moridin, Shaidar Haran usually get a hard rap, and soem Graendalites and Lanfearites are dead-set against the other.<br /><br />I think you've shown who a panel of experts THINK is most likely to have killed Asmodean, not who ACTUALLY is most likely to have killed Asmodean. I feel like this is kind of like a panel of environmental groups teling us they think the cliamte is warming. They may be right, but you have to wonder if they'd say that even in the face of direct evidence to the contrary.<br /><br />That said, some of the usual 'couldn't be them' suspects should be considered by the weight of the experts, particularly where there is either no bias against them or a strong bias against them. Sammael and Moridin! Who'd have thunk it? (Me for Moridin, but anyway...) How could they score so high unless they are legitimate contenders?</b></font>


created: 2005-02-19 09:37:57
subject: <b>Good job</b>
body:
You did an excellent job consolidating the information. I was honoured to take part in such a great theory.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">A One Power researcher<br />Defender of Lanfear<br />Grand Ninja-Nae'blis to be feared <br />Original Warder to Isa <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br />New Warder to Nossie <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />Toy to Seriana <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/winky.gif" border="0" /><br />Mystified by a Fan <br />Bonded Phelix - I was young, it happened so fast.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-02-20 22:22:55
subject: <b>Why do people keep saying these things?</b>
body:
1) Men are NOT good at sensing each other's channeling.  Go to the WOTFAQ section on the range for sensing other channelers (http://www.steelypips.org/wotfaq/2_nondark/2.3_one-power/2.3.05_op-range.html) if you don't believe me.  I would propose that even the FAQ is too generous about male sensing ability--Rand's remark to Asmodean after the dragkhar attack didn't necessarily imply that Rand could have sensed Asmo from that far away--Rand was simply saying that if he HAD caught Asmo channeling (which he may or may not have actually been able to do), there would have been consequences.  Rand's threat to Taim in LoC can be read as either bravado or a hint that Rand has planted (or intends to plant) some wards in and around the city.  <br /><br />2) Yes, Jordan has said that very few letters identify the correct killer, but just who do you think these letter writers are?  How many of them do you think actually read FAQs and discussion threads and/or have any kind of familiarity with the evidence?  I would bet you that at least half of Jordan's letter writers have Asmodean theories that we would consider loony or at least highly unlikely.  Now, divide the remaining fifty-odd percent among the five or six most common suspects, and you'll end up with no more than one tenth of respondants saying that Graendal did it (or that Slayer did it or that Lanfear did it).  Whether that counts as a &quot;small percentage&quot; is a matter of opinion, I suppose.<br /><br />3) Why do people insist on using the &quot;intuitively obvious&quot; quote as a stick for beating on each other's theories?  The solution is obvious to Jordan because he already knows what it is.  He knows which clues are important and which ought to be ignored.  He knows how frightened Asmo would have been of Slayer, how long Lanfear was in Finnland (and whether she would have been granted wishes), how much time elapsed between Ishy's death and the creation of Moridin, and so on.  He takes his own special knowledge for granted and forgets that we won't necessarily make all of the assumptions that he expects us to make.  I guess what I'm saying is, there's no point in trashing a theory simply because you don't think it's &quot;obvious&quot; enough--provided, of course, that it's at least within the reasonable range of possibility.


created: 2005-02-21 05:53:08
subject: <b>Very interesting...</b>
body:
I think it's a very interesting work, though it's a pity that not all who were asked could participate. <br />Of course everyone might be biased for or against possible candidates to a certain degree.<br /><br />Anyway, it's no surprise that any Forsaken is by default a quite high-ranking suspect, simply because they normally have the ability to Travel, quickly kill Asmo, let his body vanish and a more or less good motive.<br />Then we have to rule out certain Forsaken because they couldn't be there (Moghedien &amp; Lanfear, maybe Moridin) or due to their PoV (Demandred &amp; Semirhage).<br /><br />Still, I'm surprised that Sammael ranks so high (considering his personality and his words in LoC).<br />In my view Taim is a better suspect.<br /><br />Also some might not have considered RJ's recent answer to the Finn question which quite clearly rules Lanfear out.<br /> <br />Finally, Moridin is quite problematic since we don't know when he was back. We don't see him again before ACoS.<br /><br />Plus, I think no one can logically explain why Moridin would wear an Ishamael mask, so that Asmo could recognize him, if he kills Asmo anyway in the same moment.<br /><br />All in all, in my opinion Slayer is still by far the most likely suspect, if you put all the clues together, but also Graendal and Taim remain possible.<br /><br />Good job, kcf! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />


created: 2005-02-21 10:07:09
subject: <b>responses...</b>
body:
Thanks for all of the responses - I'm especially pleased to see responses from theoryland - perhaps they will see the light <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> and spend more time over here.<br /><br />Aging Computer<br /><br /><b>Always refreshing to see a clear view on the Asmo mystery. Clearly, here at wotmania we're biased towards the Graendal-dunnit theories, but I wonder what would happen if you would give the survey to people from Dragonmount, or somewhere else? Would Lanfear come up on top? Or (heaven forbid) Moridin?</b><br /><br />It's hard to know exactly what the overall thoughts are about who killed Asmodean. Also, how many people have actually taken all the available evidence and spent time analyzing it to come to a conclusion. Yes, the 'experts' that participated in this theory generally favored Graendal, but is this limited to wotmania - I don't think so. Also, take into account that the majority of Asmodean post that we see these days favor someone else as the killer. This could be just the minority opinion raging against the masses, but is it? All in all, I would have to conclude that Graendal is the most favored suspect because she most likely did it.<br /><br /><b>And I was wondering, how does one qualify as being an &quot;expert&quot;? </b><br /><br />It was not very scientific. I came up with a list that generally consisted of people who have written theories on the subject and who argue the case (often rather 'loudly' <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />) on both the theory post and blackboard. Then I included a few other frequent posters who are generally well respected and several of the more active admins (generally those that actually remember there is a theory post and WoT MB). When I sent out my original 'feeler' NB I asked for suggestions about others to inlcude. I know I missed several 'experts' out there and would have included others. This method generally favored the inclusion of people who have been active around the site for at least year (and several who aren't as active as they once were). It's unfortunate that more didn't have the chance to participate - as I said, less then half did.<br /><br /><br />SAMPSON<br /><br /><b>I got flamed because I thought it was Ishmael/Mordin on the MB. I agree with the top 3 that your project results have ranked, maybe not the order. But since I have been frequenting this site a little more often of late, I have decided to keep an open mind. I agree that the top 3 could have done it. But I think more weight would need to be placed on the weapon and disposal of the body. The only logical way one of the t3 would have done it was via Bale Fire (2 birds with 1 stone). The amount of OP used to weave bale fire &amp; to travel would have tipped of Rand &amp; Avi respectively. They would not have detected the TP.<br /></b><br /><br />I think that the categories included did take these issues into account adequately. As I mentioned, if anything, this method placed too much weight on these issues. Moridin is a hard suspect to explain - he was not introduced until 2 books later, and Asmodean would not have recongized him (remember, we have never seen Moridin use a MoM - this does not mean he doesn't, but it should be accounted). <br /><br /><b><br />But I also think you should have added another suspect, RJ. I think he needed Asmodean out of the story. I do not think he even suspected that the fans/readers would have made this event into such a big deal. He thought he wrote enough evidences to have multiple suspects, and that it was plausible for somebody to kill Asmo at that time. He assumed that we the readers would accept that Asmo was killed and move forward with the story.<br /><br />So basically RJ didn&#8217;t have a designated killer at the time he wrote it. There were multiple suspects with legitimate reasons to kill Amso. We should have accepted the only fact that he tried to communicate to us. Asmodean is dead! He does not have anything else to do with the series.<br /><br />That my fellow WoTmaniacs is the truth about the demise of Asmodean. Everything we get now, is RJ trying to put us off and find a way that makes sense so we can drop it.</b><br /><br />Frankly, I agree with you here. In my original theory that posted about a year ago where I used this method, I included RJ as a suspect (more for humorous reasons, but not only humorous reasons). Back in the day TFOH was written, there weren't freaks like us analyzing every word written. Now that there are, some allowances have to be made.<br /><br />I do believe that when writing RJ knew who the killer was, and did place a couple clues, but just not that many. The cold, hard truth is that it does not matter who killed Asmodean. It does not influence the overall plot, and it is old news. However, it is still a lot of fun to debate <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" />.<br /><br /><br />Kison<br /><br /><b>Let us not forget that Robert Jordan said that we **MET** the killer in book FIVE. That would clear off a large chunk of suspects I would think. </b><br /><br />I don't recall him ever saying that - if he did, could you provide the source? I do know that he has indicated that there is enough evidence to figure it out at the time of the murder - not that we necessarily met the killer.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Need a book to read - check out my blog for ideas.</font><p><a href="http://nethspace.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">Neth Space</a></p><p></p>


created: 2005-02-21 10:46:02
subject: <b>more responses</b>
body:
I know I dislike reading long BB posts, so I figured I would break up the responses...<br /><br /><br />Homsar:<br /><br /><b>And I don't understand why Semirhage was removed from the list of suspects.</b><br /><br />Semirhage was removed because a later PoV of hers indicates that she did not know that Asmodean is dead. Clearly, she wasn't the killer if she did not know he is dead. This quote is from LoC and I found it the FAQ on this site:<br /><br />Semirhage's thoughts:<br /><br /><i>&#8230;Asmodean. A traitor, and so doomed, but he really had vanished, and Shaidar Haran's existence and her own orders here combined to remind her that the Great Lord worked in his own ways toward his own goals.<br /><br />&#8230;If the Great Lord moved her here secretly, might he not be moving Moghedien or Lanfear, or even Asmodean?</i><br /><br />-Lord of Chaos, Threads Woven Of Shadow<br /><br /><br />Tain Shari of the Codarra:<br /><br /><b>the biggest problem I have w/ Graendal as killer is RJ's comment that most (almost all, I think he said (?)) people get the killer wrong in letters to him. As Graendal is the &quot;most logical choice,&quot; he must get lots of letters w/ her being the murderer. I don't know whether you had the contributors to your theory consider this under part of the &quot;RJ clues&quot; section of the matrix. And who knows? I wouldn't be that surprized if RJ's letter comment has been mis-quoted or he intentionally said it to cause confusion, just for the hell of it.</b><br /><br />I can't speak for others about whether they considered this or not, so I won't try. I don't give this too much weight - I don't know who wrote the letters, and I'm not sure of RJ's exact context. I get the feeling that for RJ to consider the answer correct, you need to lay out all of the evidence and get the whole arc correct.<br /><br /><br />Columbo:<br /><br />I suppose that you have argued your thoughts often enough. I think that it is rather short sighted to dismiss other suspects so quickly - especially when you favor Lanfear, who has more than a few obstacles to overcome. Have you seen the latest QotW? It just got harder to explain how Lanfear could have done it - not impossible, but there are just too many assumptions to be made with too little evidence to support those assumptions for Lanfear to be anymore that an extreme long-shot.<br /><br /><br />Incantrix (and others who ask about 'intuitively obvious': <br /><br />RJ's comment regarding this murder being 'intuitively obvious' cannot be used as evidence. This comment is extremely sarcastic. But the simplest reason that this comment has no weight is that if it were intutitively obvious, the debate would have ended a long, long time ago.<br /><br /><br />Sabin:<br /><br />Sammael died at the end of ACOS (2 books later). He was definately active at the time of Asmodean's murder.<br /><br /><br />Dyce:<br /><br />&lt;bFirst, there is evidence that men can detect channeling. Unfortunately, I don't have my book with me right now, but there is a line in The Fires of Heaven where Rand tells Asmodean (to paraphrase) &quot;If I had felt you channel during the battle, I would have killed you.&quot;<br /><br />My thought has always been that the killer was either a woman, because anyone else who felt a woman channeling would not have thought it a cause for concern, or someone channeling the True Power. Shaidar Haran has always been my favorite dark horse candidate.&lt;/b&gt;<br /><br />Youker covered the issue of men sensing one another pretty well. We don't really know how this works, but close examination of the evidence indicates that men cannot sense each other very well. It seems that a small amount of power could not be sensed by Rand (who wasn't terribly far away)<br />without the use of wards - of course there is the question: was it a small amount of power? Anyway, it is an uncertainty that should be reflected in the way someone would score the matrix - I know I considered it, though I can't speak for the other participants. <br /><br />SH was included because many feel he is a candidate. Really, he isn't viable. We have seen a very clear pattern about how forsaken react to myydraal, and specifically how they first react to SH. This does not fit with Asmodean's reaction. He addressed his killer as a human who he recognized, not a anonymous tool such as a myydraal.<br /><br /><b>I must also add that I'm a big fan of the &quot;Moiraine was evil&quot; theories. I'm not implying I believe Moriaine was a darkfriend or a member of the Black Ajah, but I read a theory that Moiraine had freed Padan Fain at Fal Dara and let him take his dagger because she knew that would induce Rand to go after the horn. It made sense to me. The idea that Moiraine killed Asmo just seems to make sense, too.<br /><br />Her letter to Rand tells him she knew about Asmo's teachings. Maybe she felt that he posed too great a risk and Rand had learned as much as he could.</b><br /><br />The Dark Moiraine theories are fun and amoung my favorite, but the really don't stand up well to all of the evidence. RJ has flat-out said in a recent interview (see the FAQ) that Ingtar freed Fain.<br /><br />As for her killing Asmodean, she couldn't have. First, her bond was Lan was broken - this means she either died, was stilled, or burned out. Also, if she was around to do this, where is she now? Even if she did manage to get out of Finnland, she doesn't know how to travel. However, the most damning evidnce (if all the other evidence isn't enough) is RJ's most recent answer at the QotW - the Finn's just don't have that much power to allow for Moiraine to have done this.<br /><br /><br />tilelyanea:<br /><br /><b>going waaaaaay back in the story here, In The Eye of the World, when they are actually AT the Eye of the World, Aginor and Balthamel? show up and point at Mat and say &quot;He lead us here, an ancient enemy, and an old friend&quot; or something to that effect.<br /><br />FAST FORWARD<br /><br />Asmodean perhaps doesn't recognize his killer, but recognize's the taint from Shadar Logoth IN his killer.</b><br /><br />This doesn't add up. Asmodean addressed his killer as a person - he did not address some abstract taint within his killer. Fain is a suspect, however, as the matrix indicates, he is not a good one.<br /><br /><br />Youker:<br /><br />Yep, I generally agree with your comments.<br /><br /><br />Etzel:<br /><br /><b>Anyway, it's no surprise that any Forsaken is by default a quite high-ranking suspect, simply because they normally have the ability to Travel, quickly kill Asmo, let his body vanish and a more or less good motive.<br />Then we have to rule out certain Forsaken because they couldn't be there (Moghedien &amp; Lanfear, maybe Moridin) or due to their PoV (Demandred &amp; Semirhage).<br /><br />Still, I'm surprised that Sammael ranks so high (considering his personality and his words in LoC).<br />In my view Taim is a better suspect.</b><br /><br />Sammael turns out to be a very good suspect. I disagree (somewhat anyway) with your conclusions that his personality eliminates him as a suspect - I don't think we really know enough to conclude this. What most everyone forgets about his conversation with Graendal in LoC is that Sammael was lying and manipulating Graendal here. We see the majority of the conversation from Graendal's PoV. If Sammael lied about the truce and other things, why not about knowledge of Asmodean? Yes, I would consider this a point or two against Sammael (and in favor of Graendal), but it does not eliminate him.<br /><b><br />Also some might not have considered RJ's recent answer to the Finn question which quite clearly rules Lanfear out.</b><br /><br />Unfortunately, it does not rule her out - just makes her even more unlikely. I believe it does rule out Moiraine and the finns as suspects, but stories can still be invented for that explain how Lanfear did it.<br /><b><br />Finally, Moridin is quite problematic since we don't know when he was back. We don't see him again before ACoS.<br /><br />Plus, I think no one can logically explain why Moridin would wear an Ishamael mask, so that Asmo could recognize him, if he kills Asmo anyway in the same moment.</b><br /><br />I agree, which is why I'm rather surprised that he ranks so high. The only way I can see him doing it is if he is Taim, and even then it isn't certain.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Need a book to read - check out my blog for ideas.</font><p><a href="http://nethspace.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">Neth Space</a></p><p></p>


created: 2005-02-21 11:08:06
subject: <b>and finally, responses to</b>
body:
a dragon burned fool and the folks over at theoryland:<br /><br /><br /><b><br />Have you considered the study with certain assumptions taken into account? For example, if we KNEW that Moridin was active in FoH, how would he rank then? Similarly, if we KNEW that Lanfear was freed almost immediately from the Finns, how would she rank? I got the impression that your participants were allowing for the possibility, but not considering those possibilities as certainties. </b><br /><br />It would be somewhat diffucult to try and account for assumptions such as these. I still think that the best way to approach this problem is to deal what we do know and try to account for what remains possible while allowing for the uncertainites that these possiblities create. <br /><br />Another issue is would it even matter. For example: if a similar study was done that did assume that Lanfear was immediately freed, or that Moridin was active at the time, would that study mean anything. Because regardless of the results, the fact would still remain that the entire study was based upon an assumption with little or no supporting evidence.<br /><br /><b>What about bias against someone? Some participants may not only have a bias for someone, but a strong bias against someone in particular. Could that also be pushing down scores of non-Graendal candidates? I note that Moridin, Shaidar Haran usually get a hard rap, and soem Graendalites and Lanfearites are dead-set against the other.</b><br /><br />Bias against someone is a bit harder to quantify. I suppose that if I had asked a question at the start it would be easier, but alas, I did not. My hope was that I would have a large enough sample to eliminate bias of this kind - though with only 11 participants, this is not the case.<br /><br />In a broad and general sense, the scores would indicate that when someone is strongly biased in favor of someone, they are more inclined to be strongly biased against someone as well.<br /><br /><b>I think you've shown who a panel of experts THINK is most likely to have killed Asmodean, not who ACTUALLY is most likely to have killed Asmodean. I feel like this is kind of like a panel of environmental groups teling us they think the cliamte is warming. They may be right, but you have to wonder if they'd say that even in the face of direct evidence to the contrary.<br /><br />That said, some of the usual 'couldn't be them' suspects should be considered by the weight of the experts, particularly where there is either no bias against them or a strong bias against them. Sammael and Moridin! Who'd have thunk it? (Me for Moridin, but anyway...) How could they score so high unless they are legitimate contenders?</b><br /><br />I agree with the assessment that this really only shows what these experts THINK, and just because the results indicate that these experts THINK that Graendal is the most likely suspect, it does not mean that Graendal IS the most likely suspect. However, if you think about, I did set this up to be somewhat like a trial by jury, which is essentially the same thing. Just because everyone on a jury thinks someone is guilty does not make it so. Though, clearly this exercise indicates that this particular 'jury' would not have convicted Graendal (or anyone else). It was far from unanimous, and I know that even though I believe Graendal did it, I'm not sure it would pass the 'beyond a reasonable doubt' condition.<br /><br />All in all, as you seem to indicate in the last paragraph, I think that when a panal of 'experts' such as I have gathered looks closely at all of the available evidence and creates a body of data such as has been created, the conclusions are rather powerful, and such not be dismissed easily.<br /><br />Of course the next QotW may render this entire exercise null and void. Isn't it fun <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Need a book to read - check out my blog for ideas.</font><p><a href="http://nethspace.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">Neth Space</a></p><p></p>


created: 2005-02-21 12:20:19
subject: <b>A quick rebuttal</b>
body:
To kcf,<br /><br /><b> Sammael turns out to be a very good suspect. I disagree (somewhat anyway) with your conclusions that his personality eliminates him as a suspect - I don't think we really know enough to conclude this. What most everyone forgets about his conversation with Graendal in LoC is that Sammael was lying and manipulating Graendal here. We see the majority of the conversation from Graendal's PoV. If Sammael lied about the truce and other things, why not about knowledge of Asmodean? Yes, I would consider this a point or two against Sammael (and in favor of Graendal), but it does not eliminate him. </b><br /><br />As I tried to point out, Sammael becomes a good suspect because every Forsaken is by default a capable killer, and most other Forsaken are quite quickly ruled out.<br /><br />However, I never saw a really convincing case made for Sammael.<br /><br />On the contrary, the evidence in the books makes clear that Sammael wouldn't go near Rand to attack, especially not without a MoM, but rather send a killer.<br /><br />For example Rahvin thinks in TFoH, prologue:<br />&quot;Sammael's way had always been armies and conquest; he would not go near Lews Therin, even reborn as a shepherd, until he was sure of victory.&quot;<br /><br />And there are other corresponding clues regarding Sammael's personality which makes it very unlikely that he is the killer. <br />Of course he is still more likely that many others.<br /><br />Furthermore, the first conversation between Graendal and Sammael in LoC, ch.6, is told from Sammael's PoV.<br />There is absolutley no indication that he fakes his nescience about Asmo's fate and his anger about this.<br /><br /><b> Unfortunately, it does not rule her out - just makes her even more unlikely. I believe it does rule out Moiraine and the finns as suspects, but stories can still be invented for that explain how Lanfear did it. </b><br /><br />I disagree. <br />Lanfear is obviously not a reasonable option anymore (if she ever was one, since I think the Lanfear theories were mainly based on a misunderstanding of RJ's obvious comment).<br /><br />Cyndane thinks that she was &quot;held&quot; by the Finn which implies an imprisonment for a significant time, like most people believe also Moiraine still suffers.<br /><br />It's only logical that a prisoner doesn't get any wishes. <br /><br />But even if Lanfear wished something before she was held, we learned from RJ that the Eelfinn couldn't kill Asmo or transport Lanfear to the right place at the right time to kill him herself and take her back to Finnland (besides that she had better reasons to kill other people).<br /><br />The easiest explanation is that Lanfear was imprisoned by the Finn, died there later and was reincarnated by the DO.<br /><br />This makes a lot more sense than the far-fetched theories I read, e.g. involving wishes and Compulsion used by the Finn that Lanfear returns, etc.<br /><br /><b> I agree, which is why I'm rather surprised that he ranks so high. The only way I can see him doing it is if he is Taim, and even then it isn't certain. </b><br /><br />Yeah. <br /><br />Of course it's very unlikely that Moridin is Taim, as it was often pointed out, e.g. because of Moridin's TP addiction, and RJ's explanation how Taim found out that Rand was captured by Elaida's AS.<br />


created: 2005-02-21 12:48:45
subject: <b>more comments for Etzel...</b>
body:
In general, on these issues I don't think we diagree much, but I find myself in the role of devil's advocate...<br /><br /><br />-on Sammael<br /><b><br />As I tried to point out, Sammael becomes a good suspect because every Forsaken is by default a capable killer, and most other Forsaken are quite quickly ruled out.<br /><br />However, I never saw a really convincing case made for Sammael.</b><br /><br />Sammael has more going for him than this. At this point in the story, other than Lanfear, no fosaken (that we know of) is more active against Rand. We have been led to believe that it is Sammael that has sent DF's and shadowspawn to attack Rand on the way to Cairhien and that Sammel himself channeled at Rand during the battle of Cairhien.<br /><br />Frankly, a move by any other forsaken makes much less sense at the point in the story.<br /><b><br />On the contrary, the evidence in the books makes clear that Sammael wouldn't go near Rand to attack, especially not without a MoM, but rather send a killer.<br /><br />For example Rahvin thinks in TFoH, prologue:<br />&quot;Sammael's way had always been armies and conquest; he would not go near Lews Therin, even reborn as a shepherd, until he was sure of victory.&quot;<br /><br />And there are other corresponding clues regarding Sammael's personality which makes it very unlikely that he is the killer. <br />Of course he is still more likely that many others.</b><br /><br />I think it's far from clear that Sammael wouldn't do this. I don't think that we can use Rahvin's quote as evidence one way or another. The forsaken have proven to unreliable in their judgment of foes. Also, if was Sammael who attacked Rand at Cairhien, then Rahvin's statement is directly contradicted. Also, I think that the conversation Sammael has with Graendal indicates that there is more to Sammael than the other forsaken give him credit for.<br /><b><br />Furthermore, the first conversation between Graendal and Sammael in LoC, ch.6, is told from Sammael's PoV.<br />There is absolutley no indication that he fakes his nescience about Asmo's fate and his anger about this.</b><br /><br />I agree that there is no evidence that fakes this, but there is also no evidence that he wasn't faking. My point is that the entire conversation was designed to manipulate Graendal (and it worked). Due to this, the entire conversation cannot be taken at face value.<br /><br /><b>I disagree. <br />Lanfear is obviously not a reasonable option anymore (if she ever was one, since I think the Lanfear theories were mainly based on a misunderstanding of RJ's obvious comment).<br /><br />Cyndane thinks that she was &quot;held&quot; by the Finn which implies an imprisonment for a significant time, like most people believe also Moiraine still suffers.<br /><br />It's only logical that a prisoner doesn't get any wishes. <br /><br />But even if Lanfear wished something before she was held, we learned from RJ that the Eelfinn couldn't kill Asmo or transport Lanfear to the right place at the right time to kill him herself and take her back to Finnland (besides that she had better reasons to kill other people).</b><br /><br />The Lanfear supporters would counter with a scenario like this:<br /><br />Lanfear arrives in finnland, and is escorted (under duress to the wishing place - this is when she was held). She immediately wishes to be back in Randland. Regardless of where they are able to deposit her - Tear or ToG, she immediately travels to Caemlyn and kills Asmodean. They will point out that we have no direct evidence of time moving any differently in finnland and Cyndane did not indicate how long she was held by the finns.<br /><br />I agree that Lanfear should not be considered a realistic suspect any longer, but admit that scenarios can be invented that fit - of course they are highly unlikley to say the least.<br /><br /><b>The easiest explanation is that Lanfear was imprisoned by the Finn, died there later and was reincarnated by the DO.<br /><br />This makes a lot more sense than the far-fetched theories I read, e.g. involving wishes and Compulsion used by the Finn that Lanfear returns, etc.</b> <br /><br />I agree.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Need a book to read - check out my blog for ideas.</font><p><a href="http://nethspace.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">Neth Space</a></p><p></p>


created: 2005-02-22 04:57:14
subject: <b>To kcf</b>
body:
<b> Sammael has more going for him than this. At this point in the story, other than Lanfear, no fosaken (that we know of) is more active against Rand. We have been led to believe that it is Sammael that has sent DF's and shadowspawn to attack Rand on the way to Cairhien and that Sammel himself channeled at Rand during the battle of Cairhien.<br /><br />Frankly, a move by any other forsaken makes much less sense at the point in the story. </b><br /><br />Well, I agree, that at the time of TFoH Sammael seems to be Rand's main enemy.  <br /><br />But the issue is if Sammael (or another Forsaken) would really go himself to the Caemlyn Palace, wander there through the halls without a disguise, prepared to kill everyone he meets. <br />Or, if it is not more likely that he would send a capable killer like Slayer.<br /><br />I say, considering Sammael's personality which is established in the books, it's clear that he wouldn't go near Rand like an assassin would.<br /><br /><b> I think it's far from clear that Sammael wouldn't do this. I don't think that we can use Rahvin's quote as evidence one way or another. The forsaken have proven to unreliable in their judgment of foes. Also, if was Sammael who attacked Rand at Cairhien, then Rahvin's statement is directly contradicted. Also, I think that the conversation Sammael has with Graendal indicates that there is more to Sammael than the other forsaken give him credit for. </b><br /><br />It's made clear in the prologue of TFoH that Rahvin and Sammael are quite familiar.<br /><br />There are also other quotes in TFoH, e.g. where Sammael expresses his fear that Rand will go after him in a Forsaken meeting, which show that Sammael certainly wouldn't go near Rand as Asmo's killer did, especially if he can send someone to do the deed as he did in the past.<br /> <br />If Sammael really attacked Rand in Cairhien (also Rahvin and maybe Demandred are possible) it's nevertheless different from what Asmo's killer did.<br />The attacker in Cairhien was quite secure since he was far away and could quickly Travel away.<br /><br />But now imagine that not only Asmo had opened the door at the end of TFoH and saw Sammael, but e.g. Rand, Asmo, Aviendha and a contingent of Aiel.<br />Sammael would be toast (already then... <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />),<br />Why should Sammael risk this? <br /><br />And basically these are the same problems for Graendal.<br />She only becomes a better suspect than Sammael because she states in LoC that Asmo is dead while Sammael apparently doesn't know it.<br /><br />Of course this is contradictorily to RJ's information that there are enough clues to figure the killer just with the information up to Asmo's murder. <br />After his death, RJ put a few additional clues into the books which are not needed necessarily.<br /><br />Till Asmo's death Sammael was probably the better (and more obvious) suspect. <br />After Asmo's death it's clearly rather Graendal, and mainly because of what she says in LoC.<br />In the end this makes both unlikely being the killer.<br /><br />On the other hand, there are clues before LoC which show that Slayer hunts renegades of the Shadow.<br />Why would the Forsaken try to assassinate someone on their own, thus risking their lives, if they have special employees to do this?<br /><br />Therefore I believe it's quite likely that Graendal sent Slayer which would explain her knowledge (if she didn't learn it from Demandred).<br />Or maybe, against all the doubts, Sammael sent Slayer if he faked everything as you argue.<br />And perhaps, if he was already back, Moridin did it. <br /><br /><b> I agree that there is no evidence that fakes this, but there is also no evidence that he wasn't faking. My point is that the entire conversation was designed to manipulate Graendal (and it worked). Due to this, the entire conversation cannot be taken at face value. </b><br /><br />Well, since it is Sammael's PoV, he should think that he does something clever, but he just considers that he doesn't know everything and that makes him very angry.<br /><br />Since it is more unlikely that Sammael fakes his emotions, this must be proven, not the contrary.<br /><br />It's stated that Sammael manipulated Graendal in the second conversation in LoC, ch.23, though, but not in the first.<br />He did this in the second conversation also to get true answers from her, e.g. about Asmo's fate.<br /><br /><b> The Lanfear supporters would counter with a scenario like this:<br /><br />Lanfear arrives in finnland, and is escorted (under duress to the wishing place - this is when she was held). She immediately wishes to be back in Randland. Regardless of where they are able to deposit her - Tear or ToG, she immediately travels to Caemlyn and kills Asmodean. They will point out that we have no direct evidence of time moving any differently in finnland and Cyndane did not indicate how long she was held by the finns.<br /><br />I agree that Lanfear should not be considered a realistic suspect any longer, but admit that scenarios can be invented that fit - of course they are highly unlikley to say the least. </b><br /><br />Yeah, highly unlikely. <br />It also doesn't explain how Lanfear died.<br /><br />Besides why should both Finn races escort her to the wishing palace if she arrives through the doorway in the Eelfinn place? <br /><br />That she was held by Eelfinn and Aelfinn indicates that she this happened somewhere else.<br /><br />There are really so many holes and uncertainties that one can only refuse any such scenario, IMO.


created: 2005-02-22 09:53:47
subject: <b>no one killed asmo...</b>
body:
...he'll wake up in the bath in book twelve and it will have all been a dream...<br /><br />nice theory tho, maths is good!<br /><br />Lycii<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> 'i'm new to this' <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perrin.gif" border="0" /> 'look at all the pwitty pictures! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />


created: 2005-02-22 20:11:23
subject: <b>Can we be sure Asmo is dead?</b>
body:
Everyone states that Asmo is 100% certain to be dead, partly because of what the DO says to Demandred.<br /><br />The DO never says that Asmo is dead. He says that Asmo is &quot;TWISTED BY HIS WEAKNESS&quot;, implying that, at that point, he is not dead. Of course, the DO says those who betray him SHALL die the final death. This implies that Asmo has been taken and is being tortured. The DO specifically says Rahvin is dead, but only that Asmo is twisted.<br /><br />Of course, the wording in the 'death' scene is &quot;The word still hung in the air when death took him&quot;. Death TOOK him, which can have two meanings. The first is that he died, but the second is that someone took him, and he knows he will die.<br /><br />You will note that Asmo doesn't feel any building up of the power, so Saidin is not used in his 'killing'. If Saidar were used in any notable amount, Aviendha would notice, as she is not far away at all, and this means, if Saidar was used, it was by an Aes Sedai, and not a Forsaken (Which is possible, as Rahvin had an Aes Sedai compulsed and in the palace, IIRC).<br /><br />I suspect that Asmo was taken away, perhaps by Shaidar Haran, to Shayol Ghul, where he was being tortured and/or killed. In the LoC prologue, Demandred hears a man's voice screaming out when a myrrdraal's sword was being made - it could have been Asmo. That would explain 'twisted', as Asmo's soul would have been placed into the sword (or something like that).<br /><br />You will notice that even Demandred doesn't say that Asmo is dead. He notes that the DO seems to know more about Asmo that he does. Surely he would have thought - 'at least he is dead', or something like that, if that is what the DO meant.<br /><br />Here is another point - 'The blood drained from his face'. There is only one creature who has been known to cause the Forsaken's faces to drain like that - Shaidar Haran. Asmo would fear the other Forsaken, but wouldn't he also think of them as a chance to switch back to the 'winning side'?<br /><br />Of course, if RJ has said straight out that he did die in that scene, then I will gladly accept it, but I am not aware of any statement. RJ just keeps saying 'RAFO' to any question on the subject.<br /><br />My answer to who killed Asmodean is 'The Dark One killed Asmodean'.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Asmodean is alive and posing as Sammael!<br /><br />Sammael <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sammy.gif" border="0" /> is Sparticus.<br /><br />No, I'm Sparticus! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /> = <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />I'm Herid Fel Reborn!!!!! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shy.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-02-23 10:27:27
subject: <b>agree</b>
body:
i must say that i am really impressed by your deductions...<br /> your hard work is masterful and should be commended. kudos!!!


created: 2005-02-23 12:22:59
subject: <b>Shaidar Haran</b>
body:
I don't think our favorite superfade should be discounted too quickly.  Darth Oz had a very plausible theory that Shaidar Haran has actually been around since The Eye of the World, and made appearances in all of the first three books (In each one we see a Fade who is seen to smile at characters and talk as if he has more authority than a normal fade would, and furthermore, remember the fade who led the trolloc attack in Emond's Field trying to capture the three ta'veren?  The one that Moraine and Lan, who must have killed numerous Myrddraal between them over the years, couldn't seem to bring down?  Lan said he had &quot;the Dark One's own luck&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />.  And if you consider that he started out as just a normal Myrddraal whom the Dark One &quot;inhabited&quot; as an avatar and who has steadily been growing in power (and size) since that time, then we cannot necessarily assume that Shaidar Haran had not been introduced to us by the end of book 5.  Now, as to whether Asmodean would recognize him or not, that's debatable.


created: 2005-02-23 12:57:19
subject: <b>What The Aelfinn Said:</b>
body:
I love the superfade theories that bounce around and think there is pretty good evidence that SH has been around for a while. However, there are still some important issues that would prevent him from being a good suspect:<br /><br />1. We don't know for sure that he has been around - therefore an assumption is necessary, and that add uncertainty that must accounted for.<br /><br />2. RJ has said that the DO did not order Asmodean's death. This is a huge point against SH. SH is the avatar of the DO, and it is very unlikely that he would take such an extreme action without a direct order to do so. We repeatedly see SH bringing the forsaken into line and even punishing them, but we have yet to see him actually kill anyone.<br /><br />3. Asmodean addresses his killer as a person, and a person whom he recognizes. We have seen several of the forsaken's reactions to SH when they meet him. They are very consistent - they always dismiss the Myddraal as way less than equal and little more than a tool. SH typcially diabuses them of this notion rather quickly, but the first reaction is important. In short Asmodean's reaction is not consistent with how he would react to seeing a Myddraal, even a tall, dark, and hands...er smiling Myddraal.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Need a book to read - check out my blog for ideas.</font><p><a href="http://nethspace.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">Neth Space</a></p><p></p>


created: 2005-02-23 20:07:28
subject: <b>jcf:</b>
body:
True, the fact that Jordan stated that the DO did not order his demise is a major blow for the SH theory.  I could argue the point that Jordan likes to talk like an Aes Sedai, that if the DO was in the form of SH it wouldn't have technically been &quot;ordering&quot; Asmodean's death if he had done it &quot;himself&quot; (and remember the Dark One seemed to know about Asmodean's death before everyone else), but I think the death of the case against SH is indeed the fact that I can't come up with any plausible reason for why Asmodean would have recognized him.


created: 2005-02-24 04:03:19
subject: <b>Against SH</b>
body:
Besides what kcf pointed out, also RJ's statements show that the killer can't be SH.<br />He said e.g. that all necessary clues are included up to TFoH.<br /><br />Before LoC we didn't know that it is something special that a Myrddraal has a sense of humour. <br />We also didn't know that there is a creature like SH who can use the TP and is the Hand of the Dark.<br />Therefore one couldn't conclude before LoC that the Myrddraal we see smiling in the first books could be a special Myrddraal and the possible killer.


created: 2005-02-28 15:31:43
subject:
<b>Happy to see you got your Theory finalized <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /></b>

body:
The only major surprise is Moridin`s 3rd place finish.<br /><br />But this is a job well done.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2005-03-16 12:52:38
subject: <b>Nice post.....</b>
body:
Nice.<br /><br />I prefer the MMO method (means, motive opportunity) myself.<br /><br />Who had the means...a channeller.<br />Who had the motive...a Forsaken.<br />Who had the opportunity....Greandal, looting the palace.<br /><br />She's actually the only one able to carry it off, especially given info in later books and RJs own info.<br /><br />Slayer and SH are out because we hadn't met them by then. As are all the dead Forsaken because...well, they were dead. Moiraine and Lanfear are also out. Technically, there's little to say they couldn't do it, except RJs statement that the answer is &quot;obvious&quot;....which means people we knew were dead or hadn't met can be easily and quickly dismissed from consideration without worryign too much about how to dismiss them.<br /><br />Making things simpler....other characters drop out of the running because, later on, they don't know Asmodean is dead.<br /><br />This makes it easy to drop Sammael...the only other possible contender.<br /><br />To me, a lot of thought has gone into false leads....such as the idea Asmodean was assassinated. <br /><br />He wasn't....it was a crime of opportunity. He ran into someone he recognised, didn't expect to see and who could overpower a channeler. He wasn't looking for them...he was looking for a wine cellar and was essentially opening doors at random.<br /><br />Graendal is the only character able to do it and fulfil other criteria.<br /><br />EJL


created: 2005-11-08 09:02:36
subject: <b>one other suspect</b>
body:
Rand himself... Or better, Rand/Lews.<br /><br />After KoD, he's much more a suspect, I think.<br /><br />But, the theory is nice to read.


created: 2005-11-22 01:06:40
subject: <b>And the murderer is...</b>
body:
I'm not going to tell for sure who did it, but I will say that RJ was not lying when he said it's intuitively obvious who killed Asmodean. I missed it the first time, and when I reread the book, I nearly kicked myself. If, by the time you read the last line of the chapter in which Asmodean dies, you do not know who (not what) killed him and how, I suggest you flip back about 30 pages and read again. If the answer doesn't hit you that time, then take a few moments and consider the fact that you might not be paying attention. Don't depend on the prologue from the next book because RJ is playing with you. He stated right out that the answer lies at the moment of Asmodean's death.<br /><br />Do you know who did it now?


created: 2005-11-28 15:00:21
subject: <b>Deriamas...</b>
body:
trust me when I say that I've read the books 'several' times and that are in particular even more. RJ stating that it is 'intuitively obvious' is the big joke - it's not. It's a reference to an physics class he had in college, where the professor continually said things were 'intuitively obvious' while the students did not agree. <br /><br />A lot of new info has come about from interviews, signings, blogs, etc from RJ himself. Frankly, I'm more convinced then ever that it was Graendal. I consider Taim to be the next best candidate, but he is quite a bit lower than Graendal.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Need a book to read - check out my blog for ideas.</font><p><a href="http://nethspace.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">Neth Space</a></p><p></p>


created: 2005-02-21 07:58:09
subject: <b>All very well,</b>
body:
but you have one fundamental error:<br />&#8220;And he shall bind the nine moons to serve him.&#8221;<br />The nine moons, wouldn't that be the empress of Seanchan, ie. Tuon's mother?<br />Of course, should the empress die then Tuon would become empress.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bela.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bela.gif" border="0" /> Don't even think to ask how I came up with my nick; you don't want to know <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-02-21 10:43:04
subject: <b>nine moons</b>
body:
does nine moons refer to the JUST the empress, making tuon the daughter of the nine moons? does tuon become the nine moons once her mother dies? if so, the empress, may she live forever, must die for this prophecy to come true.(i just love irony.) unless the daughter of the nine moons can speak on behalf of, or is the samething as the nine moons, she cant do any binding.<br /><br />As i suspect this makes little or no difference, i give it a thumbs up!<br /><br />(p.s. second post! thats new for me...)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">-Sabin<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-02-21 15:08:14
subject: <b>I Mostly Agree</b>
body:
Except, I don't think Rand will hand over Illian or Tear to the Seanchan.  Rather, IMO Rand will let the Seanchan keep everything they control now - i.e. Arad Doman, Tarabon, Amadicia, and Altara.  Rand (and his current allies) will keep Illian, Tear, Andor, and Cairhien. The Boarderlands will ally with Rand, but not fall under his or the Seanchan's control.  <br /><br />The question marks in my mind are Ghealdan and Murandy.  I feel fairly certain Ghealdan will not fall under Seanchan control.  Given Perrin's current relationship with the Ghealdan queen, it seems likely Ghealdan will remain an ally of Rand's until Perrin is given/takes control of it along with wester Andor (to carve out a new Manetheren).<br /><br />About Murandy, I have no idea.  Maybe it will become part of Andor, in compensation for Elayne giving up western Andor to Perrin.  Or, Rand will allow the Seanchan to take it, as part of the bargin for their support in the Last Battle.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Rise and fall, turn the Wheel,<br />'cause all life is<br />Is really just a circle.&quot;<br /><br />-BHT&amp;tM</font><p></p>


created: 2005-02-21 15:28:33
subject: <b>I agree on the principle, but not detail</b>
body:
I agree that &quot;to bind&quot; means to form some sort of alliance to achieve the common goal. Besides that there would be no Rand's ruling at all.<br /><br />What I don't agree that people easily give Seanchan the &quot;south&quot; and &quot;west&quot; without thinking of the meaning.<br /><br />For example, out of all &quot;south&quot; territory they control only two - Amadicia and Altara. They don't control Illian, Tear and Mayene, which are &quot;souther&quot; than Altara. Also they don't control Murandy and Ghealdan, which are the north of Altara and Amadicia. So, out of all southern territories they control two and not most powerful ones at that. To name those two &quot;south&quot; a little ignorant for my taste.<br /><br />As for the west, again the same argument. Out of three countries there: Arad Doman, Almon Path and Taraborn - they control only Taraborn. They don't control Arad Doman - it's Graendal's lair. And we must not forget the Little Wolf person. I think he will drive Seanchan out of Almon Path and most of Taraborn. He is brilliant general at that.<br /><br />Now, the argument may be that Seanchan control their continent and also Land of the Madman, which would be &quot;east and south&quot;. But that would imply that Prophecy is talking about Rand controling Randland and Shara as well. But Rand doesn't control it. Definitely not Shara. Not yet.<br /><br />


created: 2005-02-21 15:29:15
subject: <b>I partly disagree</b>
body:
&quot;The north shall he tie to the east, and the west shall be bound to the south.&quot;<br /><br />It's correct that many people believe this prophecy means the Seanchan will control the west &amp; the south, and Rand the north and the east, but I rather think that it simply means that Rand has to unite all of the Westlands in his fight against the Shadow.<br /><br />In ACoS, ch.35, Min has a viewing of High Lord Darlin, Rand's stewart of Tear, at the moment:<br />&quot;A crown suddenly appeared on Darlin's head, a simple golden circlet with a slightly curved sword lying on its side above his brows. The king's crown he would wear one day, though of what country, she could not say. Tear had<br />High Lords instead of a king.&quot;<br /><br />This shows in my view that Darlin will become the first King of Tear and that the Seanchan won't control the country.<br /><br />Furthermore, I think Rand's ta'veren influence (and maybe also Mat's and Perrin's) will bind Tuon to Rand, so that in the end the Seanchan will also fight on the Lightside against the Shadow.<br /><br />Finally, the Seanchan prophecy that the Dragon Reborn has to kneel before the Crystal Throne before TG is in my opinion a prophecy which was faked by Ishy to deceive the Seanchan. <br />Such a prophecy is never mentioned by any Randlander.<br /><br />Plus, it seems it was Ishy's plan in the end of TGH to lure Rand to Seanchan and then have him Compulsed via the Crystal Throne.


created: 2005-02-21 17:48:26
subject: <b>this just hit me</b>
body:
&quot;The north shall he tie to the east, and the west shall be bound to the south.&quot;<br /><br />this is probably irrelivant, but the north shall be TIED to the east, and the west shall be BOUND to the south. Plus, HE will do the tying, but the binding will happen. nothing saying he'll do it, its just implied. maybe the seanchan will bind the west and south, and rand will tie the west and north.<br /><br />and THAT'S what you call detail.......<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">-Sabin<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-02-21 22:49:40
subject: <b>Mostly good but....</b>
body:
theres no way that rand will relinquish Illian or tear, especially in liht of the fact that darlin is to be king. (Min said so!)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">The truth it doesn't seem,<br />present in what we see,<br />its crouched in moonbeams,<br />that light our midnight dreams.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-02-22 10:56:06
subject: <b>Makes sense to me..</b>
body:
Other than the fact that I, too, have trouble with Rand &quot;giving up&quot; Tear and Illian.<br /><br />But my biggest problem (and my problem with many theories about the Seanchan) is the casual assumption that the Rand will &quot;kneel before the Crystal Throne.&quot;  People seem so quick to accept that prophecy for true, but I have always read it as a piece of pro-Seanchan propaganda that one of their early rulers inserted into the Cycle.  I was suprised to  find that anyone interpreted it any other way.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /> Also, I can kill you with my brain. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-02-23 07:31:52
subject: <b>peace after the last battle?</b>
body:
Well about peace with the seanchan after the last battle; there still is a little problem the rest of the world may have with channelers being treated like animals. and the sul'dam probably won't like living in peace with the white tower.


created: 2005-02-23 20:45:46
subject: <b>suroth</b>
body:
doesnt suroth have a fake daughter of the nine moons, since tuon is with mat? or am i really off<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">King Arthur: You've got no arms left. <br />The Black Knight: Yes I have. <br />King Arthur: Look! <br />The Black Knight: Just a flesh wound. <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-02-25 19:23:09
subject: <b>Blackmail</b>
body:
The suldam secret (Nynaeve wil tell Rand this)<br />Semirhage/Anath (Tuon's mum is a df)<br /><br />I'm thinking the binding will be a blackmail sort of thing.<br /><br /><br />


created: 2005-02-28 20:12:58
subject: <b>Faction Clarification</b>
body:
1. Banner of the Light<br />a) Dragonsworn (incl. some Aes Sedai, some Ashaman and Davram's lot.)<br />b) Aiel - E<br />c) Seafolk - S<br />d) Cairhien - E<br />e) Tear - SE<br />f) Mayene - SE<br />g) Illian - S<br /><br />2. Seanchan<br />a) Seanchan, Tremalking, Qaim?, etc. - W<br />b) Tarabon - W<br />c) Amadicia - SW<br />d) Altara - S<br /><br />3. Borderlands<br />a) Shienar - N<br />b) Arafel - N<br />c) Kandor - N<br />d) Saldaea - N<br /><br />4. The Shadow<br />a) Arad Doman - W<br /><br />5. Misc.<br />a) East Andor - Central<br />b) Murandy - S<br />c) Ghealdean - S<br /><br />6. Other signifigant groups<br />a) Band of the Red Hand<br />b) Shaido<br />c) Perrin's lot<br />d) The two Towers<br /><br />&#8220;The north shall he tie to the east, and the west shall be bound to the south.&#8221; &#8211; The Karaethon Cycle<br /><br />Things to keep in mind:<br />Perrin and Mat are on a collision course.<br />Rand is KING of Illian.<br />Mat will give up half the light of the world to save the world. <br /><br />========================================================================================<br /><br />IMO in the final battle Mat will be overall commander of the Forces of the Light not Rand. This is agreeable to both Tuon and Rand.<br /><br />Rand will forfit only Illian and agree to allow the Seanchan to take Murandy and Ghealdean. This in exchange for peace and support. Before this, however, Rand will be captured and then rescued by Mat(?) and Perrin. Maybe Suroth will be exposed for the darkfriend she is.<br /><br />Rand does not yet control the north. This will be remadied by negotiation.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-02-23 06:31:59
subject: <b>What about shader logoth?</b>
body:
when Rand was planning to clense saidin of the taint he specifically ask Nynaeve for help because he needed someone strong enough to use the key. in fact, i'm sure he is questioned by someone (possibly Lanfear) about his plan and he says he thinks he knows a woman strong enough.<br /><br />i could be wrong, nice to see a new answer to the whole angreal/ sa'angreal question!<br /><br />Lycii<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perplexed.gif" border="0" /> the confused one <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perplexed.gif" border="0" />


created: 2005-02-23 09:01:48
subject: <b>At the cleansing</b>
body:
He needed someone as strong as Nynaeve to use the key because you need to be so strong to use the key.  If you are not normally so strong, you wouldn't be able to control using so much of the power.  At least that's my impression.


created: 2005-02-23 09:10:43
subject: <b>Shadar Logoth and the Cleansing</b>
body:
Lycii -- A minimum strength requirement to use the access key is not incompatible with my theory.  It would be interesting, though, to see someone below the minimum strength requirement try to grapple over the access key with someone meeting or exceeding the requirement -- imagine Sorilea and Nynaeve fighting over the key.  <br /><br />Eesha -- Interesting point.  Perhaps the use of Callandor during the Cleansing will bring insights its users that will be shared in KoD.<br /><br /><br />Thanks for your comments.  As I stated, I'm not sure I fully believe this theory myself.  I am just looking to learn more from discussion of it.  <br /><br /><br />TFK


created: 2005-02-23 10:19:12
subject: <b>BWB says otherwise</b>
body:
The World of Robert Jordan's the Wheel of Time  <br />   CHAPTER: The Wheel and the Pattern  <br />One of the ways to reduce the chance of accidental stilling or burnout is to use angreal and sa&#8217;angreal, artifacts made during the Age of Legends and perhaps earlier which enhance the channeler&#8217;s ability to draw and focus the One Power. An angreal allows the channeler to safely control a greater amount of the power than she or he could possibly draw unaided. sa&#8217;angreal are similar, but much more powerful. There are considerable variations among angreal and sa&#8217;angreal, but in general a sa&#8217;angreal can be said to allow one to channel as much more of the One Power over that of an angreal as the angreal does over channeling unaided. Both angreal and sa&#8217;angreal were keyed during their making for use by either men or women. A woman cannot use one made for a man and vice versa. There are rumors of angreal and sa&#8217;angreal usable by both men and women, but they remain unconfirmed.  <br /><br />It clearly states that the sa'angreal provides a variable amount of increase in channeling strength based on the channeler's ability relative to the amount he/she would gain from a mere angreal.


created: 2005-02-23 10:46:44
subject: <b>I find it more likely that...</b>
body:
Rand and Asmodean were the same strength at that time. Strength in the power works through distinct levels of strength (RJ has created a 21-level scale that covers both male and female channelers). I think it's most likely that Rand happened to be at the same level as Asmodean at the time of this fight.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Need a book to read - check out my blog for ideas.</font><p><a href="http://nethspace.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">Neth Space</a></p><p></p>


created: 2005-02-23 10:52:27
subject: <b>Re the BWB</b>
body:
I was reading that passage this morning.  The explanation in the BWB does not contradict this theory.  The only comparison it makes between angreal and sa'angreal is an assessment of their relative strengths.  This comparison does not require that they work in the same way.  <br /><br />For example, let's arbitrarily assign Nynaeve a 10 strength in the OP (it doesn't really matter what numbers we use).  With an angreal that multiplied strength by a factor of 5 (this seems reasonable, given the Amber Turtle more than doubled a channeler's strength but was a fairly weak angreal), Nynaneve could channel 50.  Now assume she finds a sa'angreal that enables her to draw a huge but fixed amount of the OP, say 240.  With the sa'angreal, Nynaeve could draw 240+10, or 250.  <br /><br />Note that the angreal increased her strength by a factor of 5 (10 : 50), while with the sa'angreal, she would be again 5 times stronger than she was with the angreal (50 : 250).  This is entirely consistent with the BWB comparison of angreal and sa'angreal.  <br /><br />Moreover, we already know thanks to a dragonburned fool and others that there are other differences between angreal and sa'angreal, such as the light given off by sa'angreal during their use.  If you read the BWB to state that sa'angreal are merely stronger versions of angreal, you cannot account for these other fundamental differences between the two.<br /><br /><br />TFK


created: 2005-02-23 11:13:32
subject: <b>To kcf</b>
body:
It is entirely possible that Rand and Asmodean were at the same strength.  However,<br /><br />1) This theory argues only against the premise that sa'angreal are OP multipliers.  As such, even if they were the exact same strength, it would not disprove this theory; it would merely prove that it could be false.<br /><br />2) I doubt they were at the same strength.  Asmo was the weakest of the Forsaken.  Rand had already faced several Forsaken and defeated them in OP battle.  He had already used a phenomenal amount of the OP by drawing through Callandor in the Battle of the Stone.  This is more than any of the Forsaken, presumably, had ever drawn at one time.  If handling extremely high volumes of the power bumps up one's power level, Rand would have been pretty high.  He also had plenty of time on the journey through the Waste for his power level to respond to his use of Callandor (and the fat man angreal).<br /><br />3) If this theory is wrong, the Choedan Kal are enormous power multipliers, at least several thousand times one's normal capacity.  At that level of magnification, even the tiniest differences in OP strength would loom large.  A difference of 0.1% in OP strength -- minimal in quantitative terms when channelers are unaided -- would be become a major differential when multiplied by the Choedan Kal.  Compare the difference between 9.9 and 10 with the difference between 9900 and 10000 -- although the percentages remain the same, the actual difference in power has also grown 1000x and, at 100 (10000 - 9900), is ten times greater than the (not inconsiderable) base strength of the stronger channeler.  (These numbers were chosen arbitrarily; any numbers chosen would validate this premise.)<br /><br />For your argument to hold up, Rand and Asmo would have to have been perfectly balanced -- or at least equivalent down to ridiculously low tolerances -- in order for them to remain in equipoise when the CK were fully tapped between them.  Granted, we have 20+ levels of channelers, but the differences between the levels are far greater than fractions of a percentage point.  Moreover, nothing indicates that everyone at a given level has EXACTLY the same strength in the OP.  It is far more likely that such power groupings are groupings of convenience, comparing people who are really close, but not necessarily identical in strength.  <br /><br /><br />TFK


created: 2005-02-23 14:13:33
subject: <b>hm.</b>
body:
asmodean is not the weakest of the forsaken, he is merely speculated to be so.  he is also speculated, by some, to be among the top tier along with ishamael, aginor, and lanfear (who, incidentally, is also speculated at a range of strengths relative to the male forsaken, including weaker than all of them.)  i just wanted to throw that out there.  but, having said that, i don't know where it fits in to your theory because, as you said, he did already defeat ishamael who is certifiably the strongest of the forsaken.<br /><br />now, i have not read the books in a while, and i do not have access to them, specifically to the rhuidean battle in question.  but i beleive that i recall that asmodean had begun channelling through the key seconds before rand did.  i could be making that up, but that is my recollection, or at least how i read it.  but, if this is the case, it could definitely have a bearing on your theory.


created: 2005-02-23 14:25:43
subject: <b>One minor point</b>
body:
Don't forget that the battle between Rand and Asmodean took place before Rand had ANY training.  He may very well have been pulling more power than Asmodean, but because he was untrained in it's use and because Asmodean was a fully trained AOL channeler, Rand's strength could have been offset by Asmodean's abilities.  It wasn't until Rand refocoused his attack against the &quot;black wires&quot; that he knew were there that he prevailed.<br /><br />Recall, Rand is supposedly stronger than Lanfear, but she easily trounces him regularly because he doesn't, at that point, know what he's doing.<br /><br />As for the differences between angreal and sa'angreal, I think it's just a matter of geometric increase vs exponential increase, but I'll save that for another theory.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Questions, Comments, Thoughts?<br /><br />Geoff<br /><br />Artificial Intelligence <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/r2d2.gif" border="0" /> <br />is no match for<br />Natural Stupidity <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-02-23 14:27:48
subject: <b>Rand adjusting to callandor</b>
body:
Rand didn't adjust to Callandor that fast. In TFOH (after the Rhuidean Battle), he creates a ward around the camp, and notes to himself that he had gotten stronger, because he barely needed the fat-man-with-sword angreal to weave it around the camp.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">http://www.orkut.com/Profile.aspx?uid=4841668765074332965<br /><br />&quot;It's like God gave you the tools to build a house, and the blueprint is in you. Just remember to use rubber gloves.&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2005-02-23 14:54:47
subject: <b>Wait...</b>
body:
I seem to remember several Aes Sedai making a fuss about Nynaeve's strength because with some sa'angreal she could do much more than anyone else... then again, I also seem to remember Moiraine telling her with Callandor she could level a city, and we know that the sword is a male sa'angreal...<br /><br />Maybe this has no bearing, but think with me for a moment. In the scene where Mat is finally healed fully from the Dagger, they use a rod sa'angreal. Did the rod allow each sister in the link draw a portion of its potential, or was it only Suian who drew on it? If it was just flowing into Suian, why not give it to another sister so Suian could focus on weaving. For that matter, why was she doing the weaving? IIRC, she's not that skilled in Healing.<br /><br />OK. I've thouroughly confused myself, so I'm going to get back to my lunch break, and stop working and stop thinking about WoT. Grrrr.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Warder to Be'lal's Girl<br />Wotmania Lottery<br /><br /><br /><br />&quot;Meh. A good relationship is like fireworks: loud, explosive, and liable to maim you if you hold on too long.&quot; ~ Sven, Questionable Content<br /><br />Bonded by Sidious. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-02-23 15:58:42
subject: <b>Additional Responses</b>
body:
Johan - I thought the BWB specifically stated that Asmo was the weakest.  I could be wrong.  I will check later tonight.  I also thought they grabbed the CK access keys at the same time.  At any rate, I'm not sure these things impact the theory itself in any substantial way.<br /><br /><br />geoff_mc - I don't have the books with me, but I believe the passage described Rand and Asmo as being perfectly balanced.  As a poor substitute (until I get back to my books) - here is the chapter summary, which appears to support my point.  <br /><br /><i>He follows Asmodean and they arrive at a plaza full of ter'angreal. One of them links a male user to the sa'angreal outside of Cairhien, the largest and most powerful ever made. Asmodean and Rand fight over it, each holding it and <b><u>channeling half its power each</u></b>. They weaved massive flows of the Power, enough to destroy a city. Rand reaches for the angreal in his pocket and that extra power gives him the edge. He senses black cables around Asmodean and he cuts them. Asmodean screams and they both collapse.</i><br /><br />TSR, Chapter 58: The Traps of Rhuidean (Summary) (<i>emphasis added</i>)<br /><br /><br />ZehGuga - I was arguing that if the use of Callandor increased Rand's strength after the Battle of the Stone, he had plenty of time for that increase to &quot;kick in&quot; before the battle in Rhuidean.  Rand hung out for a while in Tear before using the Portal Stone to go to the Waste.  Then the camp stayed around Rhuidean for at least a week before making the long trek to the Aiel gathering.<br /><br /><br />Phelix - I don't remember that scene with Nynaeve and Moiraine.  If it is as you describe it, it could present a problem for the theory.  As for your comments on the use of the rod sa'angreal, I don't remember the specifics.  In any event, I will not hazard to venture a guess (at least not without looking back first)  <br /><br /><br />Thanks again for all the comments.  Keep 'em coming! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br />TFK


created: 2005-02-23 18:59:28
subject: <b>The Glossary</b>
body:
Your actual theory as opposed to the post you made above is based on the notion that a sa'angreal allows you to draw x amount of power no matter how strong you are which is why you based it on the Rand vs Ash where they seemed to be drawing the same amount of power until Rand uses his angreal.  As this is the only example of a sa'angreal being used by two people we have you can only use it for your original theory of a set amount of power being accessible and not the one above where the sa'angreal power is added to to the channeler strength.  Addition just like multiplication would have required Ash and Rand to be the same exact strength.  So your evidence only supports the notion of the Sa'angreal having a set limit.  As an equation I would express it as <br /><br />If  x = channeler strength<br />and z = sa'angreal limit<br />then z-x = b or sa'angreal benefit<br /><br />When you add in the angreal it would have to interact with the sa'angreal instead of the channeler strength in order to produce an effect which doesn't seem possible to me though it wouldn't be the first interaction between objects of the power.<br /><br />In addition the glossary/BWB says what it says and it does contridict your theory<br /><br />&quot;An angreal allows the channeler to safely control a greater amount of the power than she or he could possibly draw unaided. sa&#8217;angreal are similar, but much more powerful. There are considerable variations among angreal and sa&#8217;angreal, but in general a sa&#8217;angreal can be said to allow one to channel as much more of the One Power over that of an angreal as the angreal does over channeling unaided.&quot;<br /><br />We know that that greater amount drawn by an angreal is related to the channelers strength and is therfore the result of a multiplication not an addition.  The proof of this can be found from the reluctant choices of non-AS in the Bowl circle.  If all angreal are multipliers then according to this definition all sa'angreal are multipliers as well.  In order to channel as much over an angreal as an angreal over unaided channeling you have to be performing the same action.  As much indicates a parallel which can't be explained by addition or by the set quantity that your theory actually supports.  We know that angreal are variable and we know that channelers are variable so the operation must be the constant or similarity refered to by &quot;as much as&quot;.  If we were to take this word problem and turn it into a formula we would get  these equations.<br /><br />If x = channeler strength<br />and y = angreal strength<br />the increase in power for the channeler would = xy<br />if you take x * (xy) you wil get y(x^2)<br />or  channeler stregth in the power * angreal enhanced stength of channeler = the channelers power squared * angreal strength.<br /><br />say for example Nyn x = 75<br />and she uses an angreal that has a factor y = 2<br />with this angreal she would be 150<br />if she used a sa'angreal with a factor of 2 she would be 11250.<br /><br />This equation fits the text more closely.  But it doesn't solve your Ash vs Rand problem.  So that only leaves you with your other conclusion that it had to do with the ter'angreal.  Or that they were reasonably close in power.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where did these Skimmers come from?  I mean if they didn't want to read the book they could have just Traveled to another author.  Why risk arriving at the wrong destination?  Why risk falling into darkness?</font><p></p>


created: 2005-02-23 20:13:39
subject: <b>Not quite right</b>
body:
Onarishma<br /><br />Your mathematics has one major flaw<br /><br />if     Angreal -&gt; x*y<br />and Sa'angreal -&gt; x^2*y<br /><br />then if you look at someone like Morgase or Sorilea (the weakest channellers, that is), then suppose they had x=0.5. Now with y=2, we have<br />Angreal -&gt; 1<br />Sa'Angreal -&gt; 0.5<br /><br />How can a channeller channel less with a Sa'angreal than an Angreal?<br /><br />At the same time, addition doesn't work either, as if Sa'angreal pulled a set amount of power, then Morgase (who would be lucky to cause enough wind to push a piece of paper off a table) would be nearly as strong as Nynaeve would with the same Sa'angreal.<br /><br />if Morgase had x=0.01 and Nynaeve had x=100, and the Sa'angreal had y=10000, then Morgase would channel 10000.01 and Nynaeve would channel 10100, only a 1% difference.<br /><br />I suspect that a Sa'angreal involves something like<br />(x^2+<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" />*y, so for someone like Morgase or Sorilea, a Sa'angreal would be like an Angreal, but for someone of Elayne's power, it would magnify it greatly.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Asmodean is alive and posing as Sammael!<br /><br />Sammael <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sammy.gif" border="0" /> is Sparticus.<br /><br />No, I'm Sparticus! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /> = <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />I'm Herid Fel Reborn!!!!! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shy.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-02-23 20:14:54
subject: <b>sorry - mistake</b>
body:
Sorry about that. In the equation that had the <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /> face, it is meant to say ( x^2 + x ) * y.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Asmodean is alive and posing as Sammael!<br /><br />Sammael <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sammy.gif" border="0" /> is Sparticus.<br /><br />No, I'm Sparticus! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /> = <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />I'm Herid Fel Reborn!!!!! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shy.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-02-23 21:43:28
subject: <b>If Rand &amp; Asmodean were equal...</b>
body:
Why was Rand losing?  Asmodean was starting to win when Rand pulled the end run by cutting the black wires, and shocking him into losing the Power.  So how does that fit in with the theory (which I like, incidentally)?  And could this theory explain why Rand was able to draw on still MORE of the Power through the LFM angreal to cut the Dark One's connection?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


created: 2005-02-23 21:57:53
subject: <b>bwb &amp; asmo</b>
body:
bwb says nothing of asmodean's strength:<br /><br />&quot;<br />Probably the man among the Forsaken with the most unusual reason for turning to the Shadow is Asmodean.  A dark-eyed, dark-haired, handsome man, Joar Addam Nessosin was an acclaimed composwer before the War of the Shadow.  Born in the small port city of Shorelle (location unknown), he was a child prodigy, in both composition and performance on a wide range of instruments.  (Of these only the harp and several sorts of flute would be familiar to the modern era.  he also played the shama, the balfone, the corea, and the obaen, but of these instruments nothing remains except their names.)<br /><br />Joar Addam never fulfilled his early promise, at least never to the extent expected.  Works he composed while as young as fifteen were performed in many of the great cities of the world, but he never rose to the exalted heights that many had foretold, and was never ranked among the great composers of the Age.  It is reliably reported that his reason for dedicating his soul to the Shadow was the promise of immortality.  With eternity at his disposal, surely he would reach that greatness and, perhaps even more important, the recognition of it that had eluded him.<br /><br />It is beleived that he never held any field commands, though he did take part in a number of battles on some level, and he served as a governor of conquered areas.  By and large, his administrations were not particularly horrific compared with others of the Forsaken, though it should be remembered that all the Forsaken did such things as allow Mesaana's mobs of children free rein, cooperate with Aginor's &quot;harvesters&quot; to gather people, and make men, women, and children available rations for Trolloc garrisons.  The one atrocity which was specifically his has been overlooked by some historians because it involved fewer people.  It should not be.  Artists of all sorts of whom he disapproved were blinded and/or otherwise maimed.  Any artist--writer, musician, any at all--could become an object of Asmodean's displeasure, but it was most particularly aimed at musicians and composers who had been considered his rivals before the war.  The horror of this can only be compounded by the fact that there was no torture involved, as such; the unfortunate was simply made incapable of producing his or her art again and then released.<br /><br />After escaping the Bore, he allied uneasily with Lanfear, posing as the bard Jasin Natael, until she trapped him into becoming a teacher for Rand al'Thor.  He died in Caemlyn, killer unknown.<br />&quot;<br /><br />now perhaps it is worth mentioning that the forsaken are not written about in alphabetical order, though they are listed thusly in their introduction.  perhaps in this way jordan is hinting at their strengths relative to each other?  just speculation and something i thought of.. yet nowhere does it state his strength in relation to the others' outright.


created: 2005-02-24 03:00:52
subject: <b>nice</b>
body:
The description of Rand's and Asmodean's fight for Choedan Kal is similar to the description of the struggle between Aginor and Rand for the Eye. In both cases there is a moment when the both rivals hold equaly the half of the available Power. Since the Eye is a fixed amount of Power, this could encrease also the chances that the sa'angreals also have to do with fixed amount of Power.<br /><br />My hypothesis is, that the sa'angreals maybe simulate the function of a passive member of a circle, only that they simulate a passive channeler of immense strenght, because the creators of the sa'angreal have not the limitations to form it as a whole real human mind, but they have to care only about the pure Power-holding capability.


created: 2005-02-24 09:35:11
subject: <b>Further Responses</b>
body:
I respond out of chronological posting order because my response to Onarishma is very long (and contains math).  So I put the other responses first.  I have been very pleased with the amount of discussion that this theory has generated and hope it continues.  Thanks, everyone, for making this happen.<br /><br />(Note - even if you don't read the whole response to Onarishma, please scroll to the very end and read response #5 for an important caveat to my theory.)<br /><br /><br />General response - I pulled a couple of interesting quotations directly from the battle between Asmo and Rand.  <br /><br /><i> &quot;Yet he [Rand] held half of what the sa'angreal could deliver; the other half filled Asmodean.&quot;</i><br />TSR, 969 (Traps of Rhuidean)<br /><br /><i> &quot;He [Rand] could not pull another thread through the ter'angreal; he and Asmodean were equally balanced, each with half of what the great sa'angreal in Cairhien could draw.&quot;</i><br /><br />In each quotation, RJ refers to the amount of power the Choedan Kal itself could deliver, not the amount the channelers could draw through it (as opposed to the quotation cited in the theory from TPOD where Elayne compares what she could draw through the turtle angreal to what Nynaeve could draw.).  The language of the text itself suggests a finite power maximum in the Choedan Kal that is not related to the operating channeler's strength.<br /><br /><br /><b>Cannoli</b> - I think Rand was losing because Asmo knew what he was doing and was wearing Rand down.  Of course, Asmo may have been getting just as tired -- we don't know.  As for your question on the LFM angreal, I imagine that if the CK really is a fixed-amount drawer of the OP, then Rand could use an angreal normally.  I always imagined carrying a really, really heavy load and being unable to open a door, when you suddenly realized that you can kick the door open with your foot.  The two actions are completely unrelated but simultaneous.  Thanks!<br /><br /><br /><b>Johan</b> - You're right about the BWB not referring to Asmo as the weakest of the Forsaken.  I cannot remember where I read that.  This will take some more research on my part.  Thanks for posting the BWB portion.<br /><br /><br /><b>a dragonburned fool</b> - I had not thought to compare the CK battle to the battle for the Eye, but it is a great point.  Indeed, Asmo and Rand fight over the CK's power in the same way Rand and Aggy struggled for the Eye.  The Eye also contained a finite amount of power, albeit too big for Aggy to handle.  Very interesting point.  As for your thoughts on a sa'angreal resembling a Circle member, I would love to see the theory.  I eagerly await it.<br /><br /><br /><b>Onarishma</b> - <br />1.  You are correct in concluding that strictly construed, my theory supports a set, finite limite of power.  (<i>Addition just like multiplication would have required Ash and Rand to be the same exact strength. So your evidence only supports the notion of the Sa'angreal having a set limit. As an equation I would express it as If x = channeler strength<br />and z = sa'angreal limit<br />then z-x = b or sa'angreal benefit</i>)<br /><br />That conclusion certainly makes sense.  However, if the CK merely adds a finite amount of OP to the channeler's capacity, the difference between Rand and Asmo's base strength becomes miniscule when compared to the total amounts of OP being accessed.  As such, Asmo's experience may well have compensated for any tiny edge Rand had in sheer strength.<br /><br /><br />2.  <i>When you add in the angreal it would have to interact with the sa'angreal instead of the channeler strength in order to produce an effect which doesn't seem possible to me though it wouldn't be the first interaction between objects of the power.</i><br /><br />Why would the fat-man angreal have to interact with the sa'angreal?  What would that even mean in real terms?  This seems largely founded on assumption.<br /><br /><br />3.  The BWB description of sa'angreal.  First, see my above post on that matter.  Second, you state: <i><b>As much</b> indicates a parallel which can't be explained by addition or by the set quantity that your theory actually supports. We know that angreal are variable and we know that channelers are variable so the operation must be the constant or similarity refered to by &quot;as much as&quot;. </i> (emphasis added).  Your interpretation of the BWB text is a reasonable one, I freely admit.  But I think you overstate your case by claiming it is the only possible interpretation.  The text of the BWB compares only the relative amounts of power that can be drawn by a channeler using an angreal or a sa'angreal.  The comparison is strictly between results, not operations, of angreal/sa'angreal use.  <br /><br />4.  Exponential problems.  I'd often wondered if angreal and sa'angreal had anything to do with exponetial power amplification.  The problem I see is this -- you can multiply a number by a coefficient and arrive at a real result without necessarily knowing the number.  In other words, I can imagine the power of two Nynaeves (ie Nynaeve * 2) rather easily.  But you cannot square (or take to any other exponent) Nynaeve's strength, which is really multiplying her strength by her strength, and arrive at a quantifiable result unless you assign an arbitrary number to represent her strength.  <br /><br />This is not really a problem so long as you are only describing Nynaeve.  Once you compare her squared strength to other channelers', however, you start to encounter problems.  As Aielyn rightly pointed out, if you assign a number to Morgase that is below 1, her strength is paradoxically reduced by squaring it.  Of course, you could respond that we would center the scale on the weakest channeler (probably Morgase) and assign her a value greater than 1 to avoid this problem.  But what value do you assign her?  If you give her a 2 (73 less than Nynaeve's strength), then (assuming Morgase were strong enough to use the CK) by your formula, her CK strength would be 8 (2*2*2) to Nynaeve's 11250.  The difference between them would be 11242.  However, what if Nyn's strength was a 76 and Morgase is a 3 (still a difference of 73 in base strength -- since the numbers are arbitrary, it doesn't matter what we assign them to be)?  Then Nynaeve's CK strength would be (2*76*76) = 11552 and Morgase's would be (2*3*3) = 18.  Here the difference in strengths is 11534.  We can achieve whatever result we want simply by sliding the numbers around.  At 100 and 173, for example, the CK numbers are 20000 and 59858 for a difference of 39858.  <br /><br />To take a breath and regroup - this is a problem because the only way to use your formula to compare amplified strengths, which the battle in Rhuidean basically begs us to do, is to assign arbitrary numbers that will provide any result you want them to.  It's unnecessarily complex and doesn't make a great deal of sense.  <br /><br />Finally, one can apply the same criticism to the yx^2 theory that you apply to the finite strength theory -- it doesn't fit the BWB.  To use your interpretation, a sa'angreal provides as much of a boost over an angreal as an angreal does over base strength.  Thus if x = base strength, y = angreal multiplier and xy = angreal strength, then the angreal boosts x by a factor of y.  To follow the strict text of the BWB, a sa'angreal would have to provide an additional boost by the same factor.  Thus a more defensible formula for sa'angreal strength should be x*y*y or xy^2 (not yx^2).  This would also eliminate the messy problem of having to multiply a channeler's strength by itself.<br /><br />However, even though the xy^2 formula is tidier and better supported by the BWB than the yx^2 formula, it still fails to explain how Rand and Asmo each draw an equal amount of power through the Choedan Kal.  That, IMHO, is still better explained by a finite amount theory.<br /><br /><br />5.  Caveat - It may be possible that the Choedan Kal are in a class of their own and different from other sa'angreal.  I was reading the Healing scene with Mat in TDR (Chapter 14, Healing).  Siuan is using the white rod sa'angreal and one of the girls (either Nynaeve or Egwene) is thinking that a sa'angreal is used to focus and magnify the power.  That text provides a stronger argument that at least one sa'angreal acts as a traditional multiplier.  However, it does nothing to alleviate the problems that arise when one assumes the Choedan Kal to act as a multiplier instead of a drawer of a fixed amount.  See the language from the Rhuidean battle, quoted above.<br /><br /><br /><br />This was fun to write.  I hope it was less than agonizing to read.<br /><br /><br />TFK


created: 2005-02-24 09:54:09
subject: <b>More on the BWB</b>
body:
The BWB is not infallible.  It is open to interpretation and may contradict or be in disharmony with facts appearing in the books.  <br /><br />See the below interview with Teresa Patterson (Feb. 2005)<br /><br /><i>DRAGONMOUNT: Many fans wonder whether the Wheel of Time world book should be considered &quot;canon.&quot; Did Mr. Jordan verify all the factual information in the book? <br /><br />TERESA: Mr. Jordan &quot;verified&quot; the facts, in that he had final approval over the manuscript and everything that went into it, but we wrote it as a 'living&quot; history--in other words, we wrote it from the point of view of a learned scholarly person living during Rand's generation who had some unusual access to rare books relics, and materials. Whether this person's assumptions about the true nature of those artifacts or the histories that were uncovered were the truth is only as certain as it is for any of our own present day historians and archeologists. This is doubly complicated because some facts are always lost to time, even in Rand's world, and that not all truths are recorded accurately--especially of the Aes Sedai have decided to muddy the waters. <br /><br />The result is that we wanted each reader to take away his or her own interpretation of the veracity of the information. Does the book reflect what R.J. intended? So far as I know, it does. Does it reflect the last and only word on Rand and his world? Perhaps. We also believed the Dinosaurs to be cold blooded reptiles for many years. Now the current belief says they were warm blooded and related to birds. Which is canon? Who knows? Will it change again? As with Rand's world--wait and see. </i><br /><br />Published at <u>http://www.dragonmount.com/Interviews/t_patterson.php</u><br /><br /><br />TFK<br /><br /><br />


created: 2005-02-24 13:57:02
subject: <b>The CK</b>
body:
So I've been thinking... you mention in one of your responses that perhaps the CK are in a different class than other sa'angreal, and I think you hit the nail on the head there.<br /><br />The CK were built at the end of the War of Power to act as a finishing blow for the Light, they were designed to be able to re-seal the DO outside the pattern, and as such were as strong as the designers could make them.<br /><br />When I thought of that, it kind of reminded me of how there's the assumption that Lanfear, Rand, and Ishmael were as strong as it is possible to be in the Power for their respective genders. <br /><br />Perhaps the designers reached a point with the CK that they realized if they gave it any more ability to draw on the Power, or to magnify what a person already can channel, it would destroy itself, and the world. <br /><br />I liked how someone above compared the CK to a passive channeler, and think that makes sense. If the CK are passive conductors of the Power that are able to draw as much as is possible to contain via the standards of the AS of the AoL, that would be their fixed limit. They also have a buffer on them, to keep a channeler from drawing more than they can handle, so if Rand and Asmo happened to be able to each draw half of the total amount the CK could handle without destroying itself, then the buffer would kick in and stop them from drawing more.<br /><br />Add in that both got to the AK at the same time and tried to draw through it, they both could easily have drawn half of the ammount the CK could handle.<br /><br />I hope that made sense... I think I might have gotten side tracked somewhere. Sorry. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/blush.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Warder to Be'lal's Girl<br />Wotmania Lottery<br /><br /><br /><br />&quot;Meh. A good relationship is like fireworks: loud, explosive, and liable to maim you if you hold on too long.&quot; ~ Sven, Questionable Content<br /><br />Bonded by Sidious. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-02-24 16:12:18
subject: <b>Thanks for considering what I have to say</b>
body:
I'll respond to two things<br /><br />&quot;2. When you add in the angreal it would have to interact with the sa'angreal instead of the channeler strength in order to produce an effect which doesn't seem possible to me though it wouldn't be the first interaction between objects of the power.&quot;<br /><br />&quot;Why would the fat-man angreal have to interact with the sa'angreal? What would that even mean in real terms? This seems largely founded on assumption.&quot;<br /><br />I was refering to the equation z-x=b<br />the statement above was saying that Rands use of the angreal would have to be z-xy=b1 or zy-x = b2 and therefore would not change Rands strength unless xy increased above z where he would be drawing negative power or where you multiplied the angreal by the sa'angreal which as I said I find unlikely. Of course if you don't agree that my equation represents your theory my statement doesn't apply.<br /><br />Secondly I'll respond to the x*y*y or xy^2 versus yx^2<br />I'll agree that the glosary/bwb might be interpretted in either way and I considered that when I was translating it from word to formula.  Especially when I saw the extent of variance per person, especially if someone had a strength of 1. However y^2 would still really function as y in this situation because the y of a single angreal would be a constant multiplied by channelers strength.  If a sa'angeal's factor is y^2 then the channeler will still only experience it as a simple multiplication.<br />a 2 sa'angreal would be the same as a 4 angreal.  Meaning that the distinction between the two would not need to exist.  A sa'angreal could just be an angreal that multiplies by more than x.  Which would be much simpler to say and understand than the convoluted sentence we have. I'll admit that once you start going up numerically that the distinction between the y and y^2  would become more pronounced but the indistinction at the bottom level break this theory.  I say this because so far we have only seen two angreal with any numerical value even remotely attached and that is the 2+ angreal and the ?4 angreal.  I am under the impression that these are considered strong.  For the power of a sa'angreal to not only relate to these numbers  but also to exceed them by the significant difference indicated by the characters awe means that 16 as a strong sa'angreal is not enough.   I think we should go check out Nynaeve observance of Mats healing again to see what it is she says exactly about the amount of power, I don't remember the words but they may in fact be more supportive of y^2.<br /><br />You could say the weak channeler results could breaks mine as well but if public opinion counts for anything then all sa'angreal have a strength requirement like the CK (though I personally think it is the access key that has the strength requirement)  If this is true then this strength requirement could represent where using the sa'angreal would lessen your power or make the sa'angreal ineffective instead of increasing your power.<br /> <br />But then I don't believe that and I don't belive a persons channeling strength can be measured as 0.5 and so the only number that would be ineffective in my equation is 1.  Because I think the equation I wrote fits the text and I also think that a channelers strength is always increased more by a sa'angreal than by an angreal I have to conclude that channeling ability/strenght must require a minimum number of units greater than 1.  If you believe that channelers are connected to the source by a conduit, you might say that you need at least 3 units to make an enclosed space and that solves this problem. Because as long as the factors of the angreal and sa'angreal are the same the sa'angreal would always produce a greater result. <br /><br />While this next statement is not proof, the likelyhood of a weak channeler participating in angreal and sa'angreal research is unlikely and even if they did the gains that a minimal channeler might recieve would not necessarily be known and if they did participate in such studies they would never have access to *angreal outside of the lab so to speak and such knowledge would not effect AS in particular because you have to be a reasonable strength to be an AS.  You have to be strong in order to have social power and you would have to have social power in order to gain access to the *angreals.  Especially when it is common knowledge that angreals at least are more effective the stronger you are.<br /><br />P.S.  The quotes you provided were very compelling and I have to say that  if not for the glossary I would believe your proposition.  In fact I agree that the CK is in a class by itself and as such just didn't  get a chance to garner a separate *'angreal name for itself or such a name was lost becasue it only applied to the two CK.  I personally believed up until the Cleansing that the CK granted access to infinite Power.  When Rand reached a threshold during that scene that idea went out the window.<br /><br />Thanks for this idea though.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where did these Skimmers come from?  I mean if they didn't want to read the book they could have just Traveled to another author.  Why risk arriving at the wrong destination?  Why risk falling into darkness?</font><p></p>


created: 2005-02-24 17:51:19
subject: <b>Thank you, yourself</b>
body:
1.  With regard to the z-x=b equation and the fat man angreal:<br />You're right that the angreal could not allow Rand to draw more strength if the CK imposed a cap or maximum finite level of power tapping no matter what strength the channeler had.  <br />1a.  However, as I noted above, I don't think that a cap is necessary to explain the CK.  In other words, I argue that the a channeler's total strength using the CK = x (base strength) + z (CK strength).  Any edge Rand would have had over Asmo as a result of this theory could be explained by (1) the tiny size of the advantage relative to the massive amounts of Saidin being wielded, (2) Asmo's greater experience and (3) Asmo's simply having the iniative on the attack.  (Nynaeve and Moghedien matched fairly evenly in Tanchico but Nynaeve won by seizing the initiative when she threw the a'dam at Moggy)<br />1b.  It could also be possible draw Saidin through the fat man angreal separately from the CK.  This seems to be closest to the description of what Rand actually did.  If it came through the CK, Asmo could possibly have taken half of that trickle, too.<br /><br /><br />2.  The more I think about it, the more credible it appears that most sa'angreal could be basic multipliers (ie super-angreal), but that the CK (and maybe Callandor, too) is a different beast altogether.  Here's why.  You mentioned Mat's healing and Nyn's comments about how much power she could hold.  I was reading that this morning and will paraphrase.  Ten Aes Sedai led by Siuan (with the rod sa'angreal) were linked and drawing fully on Saidar.  Nynaeve remarked that she doubted she could hold half so much of the power.  <br /><br />If the sa'angreal is a multiplier, it would have to multiply OP capacity by at least 8 times to be worthy of the name.  But since, as you say, a 4x angreal is pretty strong, then a 16x sa'angreal would also be pretty strong.  Let's split the difference and call this a 12x sa'angreal.  Add to that 9 other full sisters, all or most weaker than Siuan.  Since they are linked, their power is not fully added to Siuan's.  So maybe together they add about 6 times Siuan strength.  So we have 12x + 6x = 18x.  Thus the total strength of the Circle (and this is just speculation for the sake of argument) is about 18 times Siuan's strength.    <br /><br />Nyn said she probably couldn't hold half as much power, so let's assume she could hold about a third as much, or 6x.  We know Nyn has Forsaken-class strength.  We also have Moiraine's rough estimate that a Forsaken was roughly equivalent to 6 Aes Sedai.  Now sure, that doesn't mean it's a strength comparison, but the actually ratio is probably somewhere around there.  So here the sa'angreal multiplier formula fits roughly with observations and estimations by multiple characters.  <br /><br />Remember also that Mat's healing takes place early in the series.  Thus far the girls have really only seen Moiraine channel.  While she's not weak (she's Siuan's level), the most OP they've really seen is when Moiraine used the angreal.  Even though they are powerful themselves, they are stilled awed by Aes Sedai and especially by the use of a venerated sa'angreal.  The awe they experience later when Callandor and CK are used is understandable -- these sa'angreal are probably far beyond &quot;normal&quot; sa'angreal in strength.<br /><br />Of course, my original premise could still hold true, that all sa'angreal drew a fixed amount of the power, if the white rod sa'angreal's fixed capacity was roughly equivalent to 8x - 16x Siuan's power.  This fundamental difference between angreal and sa'angreal is reflected in other differences between the two, such as the generation of light during the use of sa'angreals.<br /><br />So given the choice, I will take the events in the books over the fairly ambiguous description in the BWB / glossary.  The books show us some differences between angreal and sa'angreal.  Until somebody explains away those differences, primarily the light generation, I'm sticking to my guns.<br /><br /><br />3.  My critique of yx^2 formula was not primarily based on the problem of 0.5 strength, but rather that there is no reliable way to compare final, enhanced strengths (which is what the BWB does) without arbitrarily positioning channelers along a continuum.  If an angreal increases strength by a factor of y, a sa'angreal (in keeping with the BWB multiplication theory) would increase it by an additional factor of y, or ultimately, y^2.  <br /><br /><br />Your ideas have been very insightful and have prompted me to reevaluate much of my theory -- which was my goal in submitting this.  While I'm not a big believer in analyzing the semantics of RJ's sentences, I think that doing so here is helpful in understanding the nature of OP objects.  Of course, there is always a danger in relying on something he wrote fairly early on and comparing it to something generated later -- his ideas on these arcane details do not always seem fully formed in the beginning.  It is also questionable how far we can trust the BWB to be accurate on objects created in the AoL.<br /><br />So ultimately, this fascinating discussion could be a product of nothing more than poor continuity editing.  It must be tough to write coherent stories with thousands of people just waiting to tear apart your every word.<br /><br />Cheers.<br /><br /><br />TFK


created: 2005-02-24 23:09:57
subject: <b>So I don't get an answer?</b>
body:
Sad... or was my question/post too incoherent. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/blush.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Warder to Be'lal's Girl<br />Wotmania Lottery<br /><br /><br /><br />&quot;Meh. A good relationship is like fireworks: loud, explosive, and liable to maim you if you hold on too long.&quot; ~ Sven, Questionable Content<br /><br />Bonded by Sidious. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-02-25 09:06:23
subject:
<b>Sorry Phelix, I ran out of time yesterday.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smackhead.gif" border="0" /></b>

body:
<i>So I've been thinking... you mention in one of your responses that perhaps the CK are in a different class than other sa'angreal, and I think you hit the nail on the head there.</i><br /><br />Thanks.  This did seem like a reasonable explanation for the strange treatment of the CK if one is unwilling to accept my theory in its entirety.  As I've said, I'm not sure I accept my theory in its entirety.  But I'm also awaiting an explanation of many of the differences displayed between angreal and sa'angreal.<br /><br /><i>Perhaps the designers reached a point with the CK that they realized if they gave it any more ability to draw on the Power, or to magnify what a person already can channel, it would destroy itself, and the world. </i> <br /><br />I definitely agree.  There is a kind of ultimate weapon / Manhattan project mystique that surrounds the comments on the CK by both the Forsaken and LTT.  If Rand and Nyn can use the CK to remove the Taint -- perhaps the biggest single factor in the history of the current age -- they are scary, scary strong.<br /><br /><i>I liked how someone above compared the CK to a passive channeler, and think that makes sense. If the CK are passive conductors of the Power that are able to draw as much as is possible to contain via the standards of the AS of the AoL, that would be their fixed limit. They also have a buffer on them, to keep a channeler from drawing more than they can handle, so if Rand and Asmo happened to be able to each draw half of the total amount the CK could handle without destroying itself, then the buffer would kick in and stop them from drawing more.</i> <br /><br />I think this was a great analogy.  The only real difference I see is that in a link, the passive channeler's strength isn't completely added to the active channeler's strength.  I see no reason to think the CK's power wouldn't simply be added to its users, but even if the addition isn't perfect (as in a link), given the amount of power the CK can draw does it really matter?<br /><br /><i>Add in that both got to the AK at the same time and tried to draw through it, they both could easily have drawn half of the ammount the CK could handle.</i><br /><br />Exactly.  At first I didn't know that you meant &quot;access key&quot; by &quot;AK&quot; -- all I could think of was AK-47, which was itself a pretty cool image.  <br /><br /><br />Sorry about the delayed response.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br />TFK


created: 2005-03-01 14:00:08
subject: <b>You forgot about ter'angreal</b>
body:
Choedan Kal is not sa'angreal or angreal, but a ter'angreal.  That could very well mess up the thoughts behind your well thought out speculation.  This ter'angreal could be build to split its power equally across all users, whereas a sa'angreal or angreal might give more power to the stronger channeler.  You introduced an orange into the apple comparison; we need to find another orange to see how ter'angreal behave when shared.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">For movie reviews and eternal life, check out http://www.richmondreviewers.com</font><p></p>


created: 2005-03-03 08:59:18
subject: <b>To &lt;u&gt;the_InnKeeper&lt;/u&gt;</b>
body:
You wrote:<br /><br /><i><b>You forgot about ter'angreal<br /></b>Choedan Kal is not sa'angreal or angreal, but a ter'angreal. That could very well mess up the thoughts behind your well thought out speculation. This ter'angreal could be build to split its power equally across all users, whereas a sa'angreal or angreal might give more power to the stronger channeler. You introduced an orange into the apple comparison; we need to find another orange to see how ter'angreal behave when shared.</i><br /><br />However, observation 2 of my theory addresses this concern:<br /><br />&quot;<b>2. Something about the access key split the power equally. <br /><br />Theoretically possible but fairly untestable.</b>&quot;<br /><br /><br />The reason I do not discuss this possibility is that we cannot test this proposition because we have nothing to which to compare it.  As such, speculation cannot be supported one way or another.  I fully admitted that this may be the reason the power was split equally between Rand and Asmodean.  However, that theory is only one possible explanation and, moreover, it fails to account for the genuine differences many have noticed between angreal and sa'angreal.<br /><br />So you're correct to point out that the access key ter'angreal (&quot;Choedan Kal&quot; refers not to the access keys but to the giant, statutesque sa'angreal themselves) may have caused the effect observed, but incorrect to assert that I forgot about it.  Rather, as you point out, &quot;we need to find another orange...&quot;  Until we do, speculation down this road is nothing more than just that, speculation.<br /><br /><br />TFK<br />


created: 2005-03-05 19:31:23
subject: <b>Maybe but there is a flaw</b>
body:
Now that may be true, but is the female Choedan Kal weaker than the male one? In CoT when the Ase Sedai that were sent to investigate the after the cleansing they came back and reported to the hall the &quot;the amount of saidar to saidan was like a mole hiss to Dragon Mount&quot; We know Rand is much stronger than Nynaeve. While fighting over the bowl of winds in Ebou Dar she had trouble besting only two of the black ajah. Rand defeated both Elayne and Egwene easily in Tear and they are the strongest ever. So the only reasonable explanation is that Sa'angral are notmultiplyers but exponets. 2x2=4 but 2to the 5th power=32<br />


created: 2005-03-07 00:46:02
subject: <b>Ter'angreal</b>
body:
Normally, a Sa'angreal allows the users power to multiply as previously stated, but im sure, somewhere it says that the Ter'angreal keys to the huge Sa'angreal allow the user to only draw a set amount.<br />I remembner this because i thought that using the sa'angreal directly would increase their power.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">The Wotmaniac currntly known as &quot;Taint Bearer&quot;<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <i>If you ever catch on fire, try to avoid looking in a mirror, because I bet that will really throw you into a panic.</i> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Came in 13th place in the Wotmania Hunt 2005 with 3790 points!<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-03-08 15:34:30
subject: <b>More thoughts</b>
body:
<b>jtsnowboarder</b> raises an excellent point.  The quotation he refers to, I believe, is: <br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>From CoT, chap 19, p. 565 of MM edition:</b></font><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b><i>&quot;...The resonance was so strong, we should have been able to smell it. There was more </i>saidin<i> used than </i>saidar<i>, much more, Dragonmount beside a foothill. And that is all I can say, Mother.&quot;</i></b></font><br /><br />As suggested, the female Choedan Kal could be weaker than the male version.  However, it would have to be much, much weaker to account for the differing amounts of Saidar and Saidin the sisters detected.  If the female version were that much weaker, it is doubtful to me that Lanfear would have boasted as she did about what she and Rand could accomplish with the CK.  Granted, Lanfear was probably exaggerating, but by that much?  I don't think so.<br /><br />This, of course, weakens my theory considerably.  Certainly, Narishma was using Callandor, and that draws a ton of Saidin.  Yet although a man using Callandor would probably vastly outstrip several women, even with angreal, it would not account for the marked difference in the amounts of Saidar and Saidin used.<br /><br />Another possibility is that in a mixed man-woman link, the residues left behind depend primarily on who controlled the link.  At the Cleansing, Rand controlled the link.  Perhaps this masked the residue from Nynaeve's channeling.  This possibility has nothing to support it, however.<br /><br /><br />One of the big problems here is that although we have a rough 21-level hierarchy of channeler strengths, it fails to give us specific strengths.  We have no way of knowing whether Nynaeve can hold twice the power Egwene can or ten times the power.  This lack prevents us from reliably assessing the amplification power provided by angreal and sa'angreal.  Couple this with the total exclusion of men from the hierarchy, and we're basically whistling in the dark.<br /><br /><b>jtsnowboarder's</b> point is valid.  The most likely explanation for the vast disparity in OP amounts used at the Cleansing is that the CK are exponential amplifiers.  However, problems still remain, such as how Nynaeve could have held even a small fraction of the Saidar held by Siuan (with a sa'angreal) and a circle of ten Aes Sedai, none of negligible strength, and how Rand and Asmo evenly split the power of the CK in Rhuidean.<br /><br />Perhaps it is, as some have suggested, that the CK access key even split the Saidin between Rand and Asmo.  But here, as I've mentioned before, the problem remains as to which channeler's strength provides the basis for amplification.<br /><br /><br />In the end, I (sadly) conclude that RJ conceives of the CK as an incredibly strong exponential (or at least super-geometric) amplifier and that the access key ter'angreal split the flows evenly between Rand and Asmo.  With great disappointment, I find it likely that the other problems that arise from this interpretation do so because of inconsistency and poor editing.<br /><br />It feels so unfulfilling to carefully gather facts and strange phenomena only to arrive at the conclusion that such abnormalities are mere mistakes and do not hint at deeper nuggets of truth to be painstakingly unearthed. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/frown.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br />Nevertheless, I greatly enjoyed this discussion and hope everyone had as much fun arguing it as I did.<br /><br />Thanks to <b>nick_elan_morin</b> for supplying the quotation above.<br /><br /><br />TFK


created: 2005-03-10 11:59:29
subject: <b>At the risk of carrying on a one-sided conversation...</b>
body:
I had another thought on this matter.  Rand had to cleanse ALL of Saidin in order to remove the Taint.  The description of how he proceeded evokes something akin to a filter or siphon to draw the skim of the Taint off the surface of Saidin.  This would mean that all Saidin in existence would have had to have passed through his filter, which was created (presumably of Saidar).<br /><br />The point is, there was a massive but ultimately limited amount of Saidar used while the entirety of Saidin was used and filtered.  This could account for the disproportionate resonances detected by the Aes Sedai scouting party.  <br /><br />OK.  That being hypothesized as an explanation to <b>jtsnowboarder</b>'s point, I hereby re-proclaim and reassert my theory.  <br /><br /><br />TFK


created: 2005-04-16 22:53:28
subject: <b>fixed amounts</b>
body:
First in this post i believe that the power is equally split. Beacause this sa'angreal is so strong the minor difference between Rand's and Asmodean's strength would not make a big difference. It would sort of be like the difference between an ocean and an ocean with a single drop more.


created: 2005-04-16 23:01:22
subject: <b>to fisher king</b>
body:
RJ says in his books that the stength of women gradually goes up in the OP. He continues and says that the power of men jumps. Rand and Asmodean could have been at the same point. Rand's power might not have jumped yet to the next stage


created: 2005-05-18 22:11:14
subject: <b>Haven't been here in a while. Thought I'd respond...</b>
body:
To Aeilman Rand:<br /><br />To take your second point first: I discussed this possibility above (see post from 2/23/2005 11:13:32 AM) but found it to be extremely unlikely.<br /><br />As to the question of splitting power -- I would agree.  That is what my theory predicts.  As I discuss above in various posts, a 50-50 split down the middle would be a sticky mathematical wicket if the CK functioned as a multiplier rather than allowed their user to draw a fixed amount of the OP.<br /><br />You may be right, that the relative power strengths involved were so high (imagine 1,000,000,000,001 to 1,000,000,000,000) as to make no real difference.  It could also be that the splitting effect also includes a reallocation, essentially giving a touch more OP to the weaker channeler in order to balance the two.  <br /><br />While any speculation on this point would be just that, I think the former is explanation is the more likely.  Imagine what would happen if Rand and someone much, much weaker (a male Sorilea, for example) tried to use the CK at the same time.  <br /><br />Thanks for your interest.<br /><br /><br />TFK


created: 2005-11-06 17:44:30
subject: <b>Sa'angreal etymology</b>
body:
Look at the word.  Any idea what it might mean?  No?  OK.  It means &quot;powerful angreal.&quot;  Sa' is sai, old tongue &quot;power.&quot;  Saidin and saidar.  Remember,&quot;din&quot; means &quot;brother&quot; (i.e. Mera Din- brotherless).  So, saidin means &quot;power brother,&quot; or just simply &quot;male power.&quot;  Sa'angreal meaning &quot;powerful angreal&quot; kind of implies its just a better angreal.  I believe (average)sa'angreal=(average)anreal^2.  Remember, in tEotW, I think, Moiraine said something like &quot;a sa'angreal increases the power of a channeler with an angreal as much as an angreal increases over their power unaided.&quot;  That was kinda vague though.  Here's an analogy that works a little better--  strength of a channeler with a sa'angreal: that channeler's strength with an angreal:: channeler's strenth with angreal: unaided.  There's also the thin about &quot;Sangreal&quot; meaning Holy Grail, but that's irrelevant.  Or is it?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>It's not apples and oranges, but no one paying attention could compare these apples without noticing: <br />(a) one is 12 times bigger and <br />(b) both of them are rutabagas.</i></font><p></p>


created: 2009-06-02 09:35:42
subject: <b>sa angreal</b>
body:
in the glossary of the shadow rising it says<br /> &quot;a sa'angreal is similar to, but more powerful than, an angreal. the amount of the power that can be wielded with a sa'angreal compares to the amount that can be handled with an angreal as the power wielded with the aid of an angreal does to the amount that can be handled unaided.&quot;<br />therefore the amount of power a sa'angreal grants the channeler is not fixed.


created: 2005-02-27 00:54:56
subject: <b>I'm not sure what the point here is...</b>
body:
So, Mesaana works to control events in the Tower, but she doesn't really spend a lot of time there, and she probably has other plots on the side.  I don't think anyone would disagree with you on that.  But why jump from there to the conclusion that her activities in the Tower are part of some elaborate ruse?  The only real basis for that theory is the unprovable assumption that Mesaana's slips of the tongue are intentional rather than accidental.<br /><br />Personally, I think the explanation is a lot simpler: Mesaana isn't as smart as she thinks she is.  She's very cautious (which is how she's survived so long), and she probably has a lot of book learning, but when someone with an academic bent fails to become a researcher (as Messy did in the AoL), it's usually due to a lack of focus or poor attention to detail.  Furthermore, the Guide implies that she's a bit of a daydreamer, so it's entirely possible that she just doesn't always have her eye on the ball, so to speak.<br /><br />On the plus side, I'm glad that I'm not the only person who suspects that Mesaana was Silvie.  Everyone (including the WOTFAQ and Encyclopaedia WOT) jumps to the conclusion that Silvie was Lanfear, but there's absolutely no direct evidence for that (unless Jordan said so in an interview that I've somehow missed).


created: 2005-02-27 01:07:44
subject: <b>Thanks, Youker!</b>
body:
The point of this particular theory is merely to show that Mesaana could very well be in other places and doing other things.  There are a number of people here at wotmania that believe she spends all or most of her time in the Tower, and I'm just trying to lay out all the bits of evidence that indicate that isn't the case.  If you care to read two of my other recent theories (&quot;To Snare a Falcon&quot; and &quot;Rise of the Golden Hawk&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> you'll see how this all ties into one rather lengthy line of reasoning that Mesaana is actually disguising herself as Berelain and manipulating Perrin.  The upshot is that she plotted with Sevanna to have Faile kidnapped to keep Perrin from fulfilling his mission for Rand.<br /><br />Frankly, I think that Encyclopaedia WoT and the big WoT FAQ are going to need some major rewrites after KoD is published.  Their assertions about Silvie/Else are probably going to be the least of their problems if I'm even half right in my speculation about the direction the books are going.<br /><br />I think you're basically correct about the nature of Mesaana's character.  She's been too easily distracted trying to obtain something that she wants for herself and that has led to sloppy detail work in the Tower.  I also think that is further confirmation that she doesn't really spend much time in the Tower any more.  IMO, that kind of attitude would get her killed rather quickly if she were constantly surrounded by enemy Aes Sedai.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Diomedes <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-02-27 01:26:29
subject: <b>... I'm not sure ...</b>
body:
The title of the theory does NOT tie in with the rest; there are other theories that explain it better. However. I agree that Mesaana is not as clever as the supposes, and that she does other stuff (not just the Tower control) - but Berelain is NOT Mesaana. THAT should be inuitively obvious to even the most casual observer! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">i have severed all my former allegiances to The Forsaken Who Shall Not Be Named Any More Because She Was Dumb Enough To Get Captured (TFWSNBNAMBSWDETGC).<br /><br />sigh. now i must find a new forsaken to root for.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-02-27 02:38:37
subject: <b>Well, the title was meant to be metaphorical.</b>
body:
I really thought that the shadow at noon was a very good metaphor for discussing the Shadow in the Tower.  The White Tower is supposed to be the center of Light in the world, and I figured that noon, the time of day when light shines the brightest, was a good allusion for the Tower.<br /><br />As for the rest, I suppose the problem is that I'm not really a &quot;casual&quot; observer.  I'm a very intent observer looking for patterns in elements of the story that don't strictly make sense to me.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Diomedes <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-02-27 06:42:29
subject: <b>Have to disagree</b>
body:
Mesaana's lair is the WT; it's really not such complicated. <br />Like all Forsaken she certainly has other plots going on as well, but in the discussions on the WoT MB and the Theory Post it was shown that Mesaana can't be Berelain.<br /><br />One point which proves both is that Alviarin almost recognizes Mesaana's true face &amp; voice in CoT, therefore Mesaana wants to kill her.<br />The explanation is of course that Alviarin saw Mesaana in the WT, and that Mesaana is still in the WT. <br />In my view she is most likely disguised as a clerk or secretary.<br /><br />Another evidence is the passage in the Guide:<br />&quot;At the time of the sealing of the Bore, Mesaana was considered just in her middle years, a little over three hundred. Upon her escape from that seal she secretly placed herself within the White Tower, where it is assumed she remains.&quot;<br /><br />It's clearly RJ talking to us here since this can't be doubtful knowledge from a Randland historian's PoV.<br />I don't see why Mesaana would have left the WT if she placed herself there, like also every other Forsaken has a own lair, so she must be still there.<br /><br />I also disagree with other points you mention.<br /><br />I think it's rather likely that Else was Lanfear.<br />The chapter icon of TDR, ch.25, is Lanfear's.<br /><br />Also Perrin Dreams of Lanfear and the plot to lure the Wondergirls to Tear in TDR, ch.43:<br />&quot;Egwene and Nynaeve and Elayne stood looking at a huge metal cage, with a raised door held on a heavy spring. They stepped in and reached up together to loose the catch. The barred door snapped down behind them. A woman with her hair all in braids laughed at them, and another woman all in white laughed at her.&quot; <br /><br />Plus, Selene who visits Mat after his Healing was definitely Lanfear, too.<br />Later in TSR, ch.48, when Lanfear is disguised as Keille, she refers to her conversation with Mat in TDR, ch.20.


created: 2005-02-27 22:37:21
subject: <b>I have to admit Etzel</b>
body:
I'm not sure why Else and Selene need to be the same person either time we see her.  Nor do I really understand why the woman in white laughing at the woman with her hair in braids means that Else is Lanfear and not Mesaana.  Lanfear never shows any interest in any of the girls, and she's clearly defying Ishamael in <i>Daughter of the Night</i>, not cooperating with him in any way.  Personally, I don't think that Lanfear would want Be'lal to lure Rand to Tear and possibly kill him before she could try to seduce him.  I certainly don't think that Lanfear would want Be'lal to get his hands on Callandor.<br /><br />I still haven't seen anyone show definitively  that Mesaana can't be Berelain.  For every objection that was brought up in Rise of the Golden Hawk there was a pretty straight forward answer.  Even the quote you provided from the BWB is ambigous.  It's &quot;assumed&quot; she remains in the Tower.  That isn't definite.<br /><br />And the point is Alviarin <i>doesn't</i> recognize Mesaana.  Mesaana is &quot;tantalizingly familiar&quot; but Alviarin &quot;can't match that face to any name.&quot;  If it was someone that Alviarin saw on an almost daily basis when she was in the Tower, one might expect her to have better luck putting the name and the face together.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Diomedes <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-02-28 03:35:22
subject: <b>To Diomedes</b>
body:
<b> I'm not sure why Else and Selene need to be the same person either time we see her. Nor do I really understand why the woman in white laughing at the woman with her hair in braids means that Else is Lanfear and not Mesaana. Lanfear never shows any interest in any of the girls, and she's clearly defying Ishamael in Daughter of the Night, not cooperating with him in any way. Personally, I don't think that Lanfear would want Be'lal to lure Rand to Tear and possibly kill him before she could try to seduce him. I certainly don't think that Lanfear would want Be'lal to get his hands on Callandor. </b><br /><br />I just wanted to point out that Lanfear was in the WT disguised as Selene when she talks with Mat.<br /><br />But then it's not unlikely that she would also try to manipulate the Wondergirls, especially since some clues indicate that it was Lanfear.<br /><br />The Dream points to Lanfear becuse she is always described as the woman in white (while Semirhage wears black for this reason).<br /> <br /><b> I still haven't seen anyone show definitively that Mesaana can't be Berelain. For every objection that was brought up in Rise of the Golden Hawk there was a pretty straight forward answer. Even the quote you provided from the BWB is ambigous. It's &quot;assumed&quot; she remains in the Tower. That isn't definite. </b><br /><br />I often said that in the past, but especially the idea that Mesaana will fall in love with the man in white is ridiculous. <br />But that is exactly what Min sees in her viewing of Berelain's future.<br /><br />Assumed is not definte, right. <br />But I don't see why Mesaana would leave her lair. <br /><br />And when do you think she left?<br />Because it's clear that Demandred must mean the WT, Mesaana's first lair, when he talks to her in LoC, prologue.<br /><br />So, don't understand me wrong.<br />Of course I know it's sometimes hard to dismiss a pet theory... <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br />I like your inventive ideas, and I'm certain you are one of the most intelligent posters here.<br /><br />But therefore I almost can't buy that you still really believe that Mesaana can be Berelain, against all the objections from almost everyone.<br />RJ created with Berelain obviously an independent character.<br />You <i> have </i> to see that, Diomedes! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><b> And the point is Alviarin doesn't recognize Mesaana. Mesaana is &quot;tantalizingly familiar&quot; but Alviarin &quot;can't match that face to any name.&quot; If it was someone that Alviarin saw on an almost daily basis when she was in the Tower, one might expect her to have better luck putting the name and the face together. </b><br /><br />As I said, Mesaana is disguised as someone an AS like Alviarin not really notices and doesn't see every day, a clerk or a secretary.<br /><br />Why else would Mesaana disguise herself in front of Alviarin, Alviarin think the true face and voice of Mesaana are familiar to her, and also Messana figure that Alviarin might have recognize her, therefore wanting to kill her?<br /><br />The reason must be that Mesaana lives in the WT without any disguise and thinks her persona might be uncovered now.<br /><br />Ah, well, probably I and others won't be able to convince you, so we just have to wait till KoD. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />


created: 2005-02-28 09:04:28
subject: <b>This is interesting, but not new</b>
body:
I remember seeing something a while ago that suggested Mesaana was actually Silvie and Selene and Else in Tar Valon in tDR.  I don't remember if it was on the Theory Post or the Message Board (I'm checking the Mesaana theories after I finish posting this), but this is a far more complete and organized theory than I remember seeing before.  Nice job.  I'm not sure about the Selene/Lanfear visit with Mat.  If we agree that it was Lanfear who Egwene met when pursuing Else, it could have been that Mesaana took her appearance to frame her, but the entire Selene/Mat conversation had all the hallmarks of Lanfear: her contempt for Ba'alzamon &amp; the Darkfriends, &quot;...there is one man I could stand beside...&quot; etc.  Her talk about glory resembled Selene's blandishments to Rand as well, but I can't figure out why Lanfear was paying Mat any attention.  She has been focused exclusively on Rand, and even when she goes to Shadar Logoth, she isn't thinking of the Dark One or danger, but jealousy that Rand was using the CK with another woman.  In addition, if Mesaana is going to frame Lanfear with the Else guise, why not try to seduce Mat to the Shadow pretending to be Lanfear, and pin the blame on the top female Forsaken if anything goes wrong.<br /><br />One last bit regarding the binding, Semirhage made mention of the prospect of being bound against a repeat of her crimes in the AoL, and she also mentioned it in the context of &quot;feeling the end of life approaching&quot; which is a dead giveaway when one takes into account the consensus about the Oath Rod.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


created: 2005-02-28 12:30:20
subject: <b>Thank you - I like it</b>
body:
It will be interesting to see if you are correct about Berlain - I for one hope you are, I don't like her.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="blue">Bondholder of Neroto Yoduff &amp; TEO<br />Sce`c of Nicodemus26 The Mighty Midget<br />Ambassador Isa ~ The Rebel Blue!<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /></font></font><p></p>


created: 2005-02-28 13:13:49
subject: <b>else &amp; selene</b>
body:
listen. chapter 25: questions, tdr.  the girls are chillin in nynaeve's room, talking over the thirteen black sisters who left and the dream ter'angreal they stole.  suddenly, they note else spying on them and she gives them &quot;siuan's message&quot; about the black sisters' belongings in the basement.  else leaves, and egwene runs after her because she is a blabbermouth.  she chases her around the tower, and looses sight of her around a corner or something.  when egwene turns the corner, she is runs into a regal woman in white and silver: selene, who is known to be in the tower (see tdr chapter 20) and is known to be lanfear (see the entirety of the great hunt).<br /><br />the else in disguise is most certainly lanfear.


created: 2005-02-28 14:18:13
subject: <b>Nice job, as always, Diomedes</b>
body:
I don't have a lot of time right now, but I'll come back later and go through the theory with some objections.  I just wanted to say that I appreciate Diomedes writing out his sometimes-crazy theories, so we don't just think of him as that nutjob on the WOT MB... <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />That said, I think johan brought up a very good point against Mesaana being Else/Silvie.  Why would Mesaana switch from one MoM to another?  Especially when her own face is much more nondescript and less likely to be recognized again by Egwene?


created: 2005-02-28 15:50:10
subject: <b>Regarding Lanfear</b>
body:
As you say Agingcomputer , why would she change to Selene?<br /><br />In fact , I believe she was the real Lanfear at this point. She had been caught by surprise by Egwene and was no doubt preparing to Travel or the like.<br /><br />Lanfear was clearly surprised that Egwene had caught up to her and I personally believe she was in two minds about whether to kill her.<br /><br />If Mesanna did indeed become Else and then on the way out turned into Selene on the off chance that she would be discovered , I would be very surprised.<br /><br />It was Lanfear in her true form.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">A One Power researcher<br />Defender of Lanfear<br />Grand Ninja-Nae'blis to be feared <br />Original Warder to Isa <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br />New Warder to Nossie <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />Toy to Seriana <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/winky.gif" border="0" /><br />Mystified by a Fan <br />Bonded Phelix - I was young, it happened so fast.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-02-28 17:26:51
subject: <b>very nice....</b>
body:
though, I'm not sure I agree with very much of it.<br /><br />Unfortunately, I'm short on time, so I'll have to read and comment in detail at another time, however, I do want to make a small, tangental point that could potentially add and detract from your argument (now how's that for ambiguity <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /> ).<br /><br />My comment is about wards. Near the beginning of the theory, you 'speak' of the potential danger surrounding a forsaken spending extended time in the WT. I will argue that inverted wards (and possibly reversed weaving) could significantly reduce this danger. We don't know the extent of possiblilities of warding (I think this would be a great question to RJ), but it seems that a lot is possible. We've seen them sense shadowspawn, sense channeling of Saidin, and we've seen that various forms of death, dismemberment, other generally bad things can be attached. I would seem pretty easy for a forsaken to quickly place small inverted wardings around the WT that could afford all matters of protection and warning.<br /><br />Likewise it may be possible for wardings to be used in eavsdropping and other spying. Maybe as far as a OP recording device. This does not seem beyond the realm of possiblity to me. If these OP recording devices are possible they could explain the extent of Mesaana's knowledge and also Moghedien's. Of course, I'm probably way out on limb with this idea.<br /><br />Anyway, good attention to and interpretation to the details - hopefully I'll find time to comment more fully on the content later. One last quick comment: I think that it is illogical to use the Forsaken Effect (FE? - or is it too early for that abbreviation) or lack of it as evidence one way or another.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Need a book to read - check out my blog for ideas.</font><p><a href="http://nethspace.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">Neth Space</a></p><p></p>


created: 2005-02-28 23:02:01
subject: <b>On the Whole Else/Silvie/Selene Thing</b>
body:
I think what Cannoli is thinking of is &quot;The Longest Theory,&quot; in which someone (Light in the Night?) proposed that everyone and her sister in the first three books was Mesaana in disguise.<br />I think it's clear beyond any reasonable doubt that Lanfear was Selene, and I also thought it was pretty clear that Lanfear was the fake Else.<br />Silvie is another story, though.  It was reasonable to assume that it was Lanfear when TDR first came out, because she was the only female Forsaken we had seen up to that point.  However, it's worth reexamining that assumption in light of what we learn in later books.  We know now that Mesaana was hanging out very close to Egwene at the time, that she was part of Be'lal's plot to lure everyone to Tear, and that she likes to play dress-up almost as much as Lanfear does (masquerading as an Aes Sedai and visiting Alviarin in that silver light get-up).<br />Now, I'm not saying that Mesaana definitely was Silvie, but I don't think you can say it definitely was Lanfear, either.


created: 2005-02-28 23:20:34
subject: <b>Wow, some really great input everybody!</b>
body:
Etzel:<br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>I just wanted to point out that Lanfear was in the WT disguised as Selene when she talks with Mat.</b></font><br /><br />Well, I'm not entirely ready to concede that.  There are two possibilities as I see it.  Either Mesaana is using two disguises in the White Tower, and the chapter icons are only there to misdirect readers, or Lanfear is Selene and Mesaana is Else.  I'll certainly concede that Keille's comment in <i>An Offer Refused</i> seems indicative, but on the other hand, Mat didn't exactly refuse Selene in <i>Visitations</i>.  He merely didn't affirm her as strongly as she wanted.  I'll go into a little more detail about why I don't think Lanfear is Else a little lower in this response<br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>But then it's not unlikely that she would also try to manipulate the Wondergirls, especially since some clues indicate that it was Lanfear.</b></font><br /><br />I'm sorry, but what's this reference?<br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>The Dream points to Lanfear becuse she is always described as the woman in white (while Semirhage wears black for this reason).</b></font><br /><br />I actually just realized something about that dream, so I'm going to paste in the original quote you provided.<br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Also Perrin Dreams of Lanfear and the plot to lure the Wondergirls to Tear in TDR, ch.43:<br />&quot;Egwene and Nynaeve and Elayne stood looking at a huge metal cage, with a raised door held on a heavy spring. They stepped in and reached up together to loose the catch. The barred door snapped down behind them. A woman with her hair all in braids laughed at them, and another woman all in white laughed at her.&quot;</b></font><br /><br />Now, I was thinking, I imagine like you were, that the woman with her hair all in braids was Liandrin, but that doesn't really make sense.  Liandrin clearly had nothing to do with sending the girls to Tear, she was simply there once they arrived to take them captive.  The interesting thing is that the description of the first woman is fairly vague, and it could refer to Else rather than Liandrin.  The two descriptions of Else from TDR are &quot;When she came close enough for (Mat) to make out her big, dark eyes and the way her hair was braided, he grinned suddenly.&quot; (<i>Scouting and Discoveries</i>)  And &quot;(Egwene) became of aware of a woman standing in the doorway, a woman in novice white, with her hair in long braids.&quot; (<i>Questions</i>)  The one from Mat is especially interesting because Else was wearing her hair in pig-tails in EotW, <i>Play For Your Supper</i>.  I thumbed through a couple chapters in TGH, but I didn't come across any descriptions of Else.  The girls do talk about her a couple of times, but I don't think they ever actually see her.<br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>I often said that in the past, but especially the idea that Mesaana will fall in love with the man in white is ridiculous. <br />But that is exactly what Min sees in her viewing of Berelain's future..</b></font><br /><br />I've seen you say that before, too, but I still don't understand your reasoning.  Why is it ridiculous for one of the Forsaken to fall in love?  And &quot;head over heels&quot; doesn't necessarily mean love.  She could very well simply become infatuated with the man in white.  I could see that happening between Berelain/Mesaana and Galad quite easily.<br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Assumed is not definte, right. <br />But I don't see why Mesaana would leave her lair.<br />And when do you think she left?</b></font><br /><br />Why not?  Why stay in such a dangerous place?  Especially when she has the perfect tool to see that everything gets done that needs to be done?  Why does she let Elaida regain her authority - twice! - if she just hangs around the Tower all the time?  What else is she doing in the Tower?<br /><br />..<font size="-1"><b>Because it's clear that Demandred must mean the WT, Mesaana's first lair, when he talks to her in LoC, prologue...</b></font><br /><br />I couldn't disagree more.  Like I pointed out in the theory, what's surprising about trying to manipulate events in the White Tower?  It makes total sense from the Shadow's perspective.<br /><br />..<font size="-1"><b>So, don't understand me wrong.<br />Of course I know it's sometimes hard to dismiss a pet theory... <br />I like your inventive ideas, and I'm certain you are one of the most intelligent posters here.<br /><br />But therefore I almost can't buy that you still really believe that Mesaana can be Berelain, against all the objections from almost everyone.<br />RJ created with Berelain obviously an independent character.<br />You have to see that, Diomedes!..</b></font><br /><br />Etzel, I've just finished writing three of the most extensive theories on this site about this very subject.  Do you really think I'm just blowing smoke out my ass?  Sometimes it really makes me laugh that people seem to think I came up with this wild idea and then tried to force the story to support it.  It didn't happen like that at all - the story itself led me to the idea.  All the clues are right there in the text if you care to see them. <br /><br />As for the bit about Alviarin almost recognizing Mesaana, I think the truth is that we aren't that far apart on that.  Mesaana is someone that Alviarin has seen occassionally, but not enough to immediately recognize.  That idea can be read a few different ways in the context of the story.<br /><br />..<font size="-1"><b>Ah, well, probably I and others won't be able to convince you, so we just have to wait till KoD. ..</b></font><br /><br />Here's another thing I find kind of funny and exasparating.  A couple people have pointed out how stubborn I'm being on the whole issue, but I see the other side of it.  I can't believe that after all the work I've done I can't seem to convince everyone what has become so plain to me.  Ah, well, KoD here we come <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br />Thanks, Cannoli!  I think you've really hit on the rub of the whole situation.  There is a certain inconsistency with Lanfear's character, it seems.  The thing that really got me going on the whole idea that Mesaana might be Berelain was <i>Shadow's Sleeping</i>.  Selene tells Perrin, &quot;The night is always here, and dreams come to all men.  Especially you, my wildling.  And I will always be in your dreams.&quot;  I think it was a theory by bobsledai that included part of that quote, and one of those lightbulb moments hit - that doesn't sound like Lanfear at all, either, but it could be appropriate for the role that Berelain comes to assume in Perrin's life.  And I don't think Lanfear and Perrin are ever mentioned together again. <br /><br />Hey, somebody that didn't shoot one of my ideas down right away!  Thanks SR_71!  Maybe there's hope for wotmania after all <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />OK, johan, AgingComputer, and sidious, let's all talk about Lanfear, Selene and Else.   First of all, let's set aside the whole Selene identity question and just focus on Else.  (johan, if you haven't read &quot;The Longest Theory&quot; by Light in the Night, I highly recommend you do so.  I have read TGH, after all, and there are plenty of unanswered questions about &quot;Selene&quot; from those books.)  I think there is one very good reason that Else isn't Lanfear.  Here's a couple scenes for your consideration <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />First, some bits from <i>Scouting and Discoveries</i>, when Mat encounters &quot;Else&quot; on the pathway.<br /><br />&quot;Wrapped in her own thoughts, she did not see him at first...(A little more like the absent-minded professor type, than the skilled researcher/most powerful woman of her Age type, I think.  Then there's the really important part)...He moved closer to her, but she stepped back, keeping her distance...Muttering to himself, he stepped to one edge of the gravel.  She went past him along the other side, watching to make sure he did not come closer.&quot;<br /><br />Now, a little from <i>Misdirections</i> when Keille introduces herself to Mat and company.<br /><br />&quot;She snatched the hat away from Kadere and thrust it up at Mat...She bit the Tairen mark he handed her before releasing the hat.&quot;<br /><br />And then the kicker, for me anyway <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> From <i>An Offer Refused</i>, after Keille breaks up the little canoodling session between Isendre and Mat.<br /><br />&quot;Laughing, she reached up and pinched his cheek with thick fingers, hard enough to make him wince, then turned in Rands direction.&quot;<br /><br />That's a pretty large discrepency, if you ask me.  Else won't let Mat get within ten feet of him, but Keille has no problem pinching his cheeks.  And one would think that the Keille disguise is far harder to maintain than Else, with dark eyes and dark hair.  So why the difference?  Perhaps it isn't the same person using the Illusion, hmmm?<br /><br />And the reality is there is nothing that indicates Else and Selene must be the same person in <i>Questions</i>.  AgingComputer, your point about Mesaana switching from one disguise to another could apply just as easily to Lanfear.  At least Mesaana has the excuse of wanting to obscure her true identity further.  Why would Lanfear bother to hang about and confront Egwene?  If Else wanted to get away, why didn't she just gate out as soon as she rounded the corner?  Perhaps she did.<br /><br />It's Selene's statement about Else that makes me think they may be entirely different people.  &quot;I do not think you will catch up to her.  I saw her, and she was running quite fast.  I suspect she is far away from here by now.&quot;  Something about that statement rings truthfully to me.  <br /><br />The only thing that makes me question the idea that they are different people is Selene's reaction when Egwene calls her Aes Sedai.  &quot;Something that might have been anger, or annoyance, flashed through those black eyes.&quot;  Selene gets mad rather frequently when people call her Aes Sedai, and it's not something that has ever made particular sense to me for Lanfear.  Lanfear was one of the top Aes Sedai in the world.  The only time that Lanfear mentions Aes Sedai after these scenes is in <i>Daughter of the Night</i> when she's talking to Ishamael and &quot;Her voice invested the name with all scorn.&quot;  Scorn really isn't the same as anger.  When I'm derisive of something, say the Republican Party (sorry all you Republicans out there, but what can I say?) I don't get angry if someone calls me a Republican.  I laugh because the idea seems ludicrous.<br /><br />There is an interesting parallel, too.  Twice, Rand calls Lanfear &quot;Forsaken.&quot;  It's not exactly the same, but it is the same kind of idea.  Rand is using a title of address that Lanfear could be said to scorn, but Lanfear doesn't get mad at all.  She rather casually corrects him.  In <i>Decisions</i>: &quot; 'We call ourselves the Chosen,' she said calmly.  'Chosen to rule the world forever.' &quot;  When he mentions Forsaken to her again in <i>Gateways</i> she corrects him &quot;absently&quot; before talking about Egwene.  Those reactions just don't really fit together with anger at being called Aes Sedai, a group whose pinnacle she reached.  Mesaana, on the other hand, very much hates the Aes Sedai for denying her place as a researcher.  That fits much more comfortably with anger at being called Aes Sedai.<br /><br />kcf, that's some pretty nice thinking there.  A little sound capture weave might be just the trick for a corrupt investment banker to get some insider trading info <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" />  The point is very well taken, however, that the Forsaken almost certainly still have weaves that RJ hasn't revealed yet.  It certainly could be another avenue that RJ uses to explain some of the things that we've been discussing.  You'll have to forgive me if I find my own line of reasoning more enjoyable for the time being, though <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Careful, youker.  It's not particularly nice to bash on LitN.  He didn't really suggest that everyone and their sister was Mesaana, either.  That job has been reserved for me, thank you very much.  The Longest Theory merely suggests that Selene was Mesaana, not Lanfear.  If your so sure-fired convinced that is not the case, there's a whole list of inconsistencies that you would do well to explain, starting with those couple that I already mentioned pertaining to this discussion.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Diomedes <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-03-01 07:07:06
subject: <b>To Diomedes</b>
body:
<b> Well, I'm not entirely ready to concede that. There are two possibilities as I see it. Either Mesaana is using two disguises in the White Tower, and the chapter icons are only there to misdirect readers, or Lanfear is Selene and Mesaana is Else. I'll certainly concede that Keille's comment in An Offer Refused seems indicative, but on the other hand, Mat didn't exactly refuse Selene in Visitations. He merely didn't affirm her as strongly as she wanted. I'll go into a little more detail about why I don't think Lanfear is Else a little lower in this response. </b><br /><br />But why would RJ misdirect the reader with the chapter icons?<br />I bet many &quot;normal&quot; readers didn't even figure that a certain chapter icon indicates Lanfear's appearance in a chapter.<br />Therefore I believe it's certainly a subtle clue for Lanfear being Else.<br /><br /><b> I'm sorry, but what's this reference? </b><br /><br />I meant that if Lanfear tries to manipulate Rand's friends like Mat and Perrin, she might also visit the Girls.<br />Especially considering that Selene/Lanfear is apparently in the WT, the Lanfear chapter icon and Perrin's Dream.<br /><br /><b> Now, I was thinking, I imagine like you were, that the woman with her hair all in braids was Liandrin, but that doesn't really make sense. Liandrin clearly had nothing to do with sending the girls to Tear, she was simply there once they arrived to take them captive. The interesting thing is that the description of the first woman is fairly vague, and it could refer to Else rather than Liandrin. The two descriptions of Else from TDR are &quot;When she came close enough for (Mat) to make out her big, dark eyes and the way her hair was braided, he grinned suddenly.&quot; (Scouting and Discoveries) And &quot;(Egwene) became of aware of a woman standing in the doorway, a woman in novice white, with her hair in long braids.&quot; (Questions) The one from Mat is especially interesting because Else was wearing her hair in pig-tails in EotW, Play For Your Supper. I thumbed through a couple chapters in TGH, but I didn't come across any descriptions of Else. The girls do talk about her a couple of times, but I don't think they ever actually see her. </b><br /><br />So you agree that the woman in white is Lanfear at least?<br /><br />In any case, the braided woman is Liandrin because she is in charge of the 13 BA and captures the Wondergirls in Tear as a bait for Rand.<br /><br />It doesn't make much sense that the woman would be Else, especially if Else is actually Mesaana as you believe and the woman in white Lanfear.<br /><br /><b> I've seen you say that before, too, but I still don't understand your reasoning. Why is it ridiculous for one of the Forsaken to fall in love? And &quot;head over heels&quot; doesn't necessarily mean love. She could very well simply become infatuated with the man in white. I could see that happening between Berelain/Mesaana and Galad quite easily. </b><br /><br />What would be the point of suddenly letting a Forsaken like Mesaana fall in love with a man (that's obviously how also Min interprets her viewing) on the Lightside shortly before TG?<br /><br />To me, and I figure almost everyone else, it is absurd, something RJ would never do, especially considering the evil, powerhungry characters of the Forsaken where &quot;real love&quot; has no place.<br /><br /><b> Why not? Why stay in such a dangerous place? Especially when she has the perfect tool to see that everything gets done that needs to be done? Why does she let Elaida regain her authority - twice! - if she just hangs around the Tower all the time? What else is she doing in the Tower? </b><br /><br />But why should Mesaana place herself in the WT after she was freed as the Guide states, if she intended to leave immediately.<br /><br /><b> I couldn't disagree more. Like I pointed out in the theory, what's surprising about trying to manipulate events in the White Tower? It makes total sense from the Shadow's perspective. </b><br /><br />Demandred is just amazed how much the DO apparently had planed: Semirhage stays with the Seanchan, Mesaana in the WT, etc. <br />And if Messana indeed acted on the DO's order in the choice of her lair and that order wasn't to infiltrate the WT, it's not understandable that Mesaana nevertheless placed herself in the WT after she was freed as the Guide says, and if it's so dangerous there as you say.<br /><br /><b> Etzel, I've just finished writing three of the most extensive theories on this site about this very subject. Do you really think I'm just blowing smoke out my ass? Sometimes it really makes me laugh that people seem to think I came up with this wild idea and then tried to force the story to support it. It didn't happen like that at all the story itself led me to the idea. All the clues are right there in the text if you care to see them. </b><br /><br />Well, as others said, you did an applaudable job with your theories; I like to read them and argue with you.<br /><br />Nevertheless in my view your conclusion that Mesaana is disguised as Berelain is just crazy, simply because too much speaks against it and most points you raise can easily be explained. <br /> <br /><b> As for the bit about Alviarin almost recognizing Mesaana, I think the truth is that we aren't that far apart on that. Mesaana is someone that Alviarin has seen occassionally, but not enough to immediately recognize. That idea can be read a few different ways in the context of the story. </b><br /><br />Agreed.<br /><br /><b>  Here's another thing I find kind of funny and exasparating. A couple people have pointed out how stubborn I'm being on the whole issue, but I see the other side of it. I can't believe that after all the work I've done I can't seem to convince everyone what has become so plain to me. Ah, well, KoD here we come. </b><br /><br />Yeah, hopefully KoD will settle the dispute once and for all. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />


created: 2005-03-01 07:42:25
subject: <b>And a point about Silvie</b>
body:
In TGH, ch.27, Rand gets a note from Selene in Cairhien. <br />It was brought by:<br />&quot;An old woman, my Lord. Not a quarter of an hour gone. A servant, though she did not say from what House.&quot;<br /><br />We can assume that this was actually Selene in disguise. <br /><br />I further believe that the old female servant was most likely the Silvie disguise. <br />Silvie is also described as an old woman and says she is a servant.<br />That way RJ provided already in TGH a clue, so that one is later able to answer the question who was disguised as Silvie.<br /><br />Therefore I think that if you agree with Light in the Night that Selene in TGH was Mesaana, also Silvie was probably Mesaana. <br />On the other hand, if one believes that Selene in TGH was rather Lanfear (like e.g. I do), then Silvie was probably Lanfear as well.<br />


created: 2005-03-01 12:42:59
subject: <b>Else reloaded</b>
body:
Your assumptions regarding Else' reaction to Mat are tenuous at best and I really cannot accede to that being solid proof of Mesanna over Lanfear.<br /><br />Else' behaviour was totally relevant because as Lanfear was crossing Mat's path , she realised that Mat must have known the novice. Therefore , for her to engage in any conversation with Mat would have been fatal. She would have known nothing and her responses would have rouses suspicion.<br /><br />It would be far more likely that she was Lanfear. Lanfear , who used to come into the Tower on occasion as Alviarin used to say. It would be more likely that Mesanna would know the novices and may even be able to pull off a disguise as one of them.<br /><br />The Forsaken never disguise themselves as real people and always form a new being to take as a disguise. The risks otherwise are too great , as Lanfear discovered when she crossed Mat's path. This is the same intrinsic and biggest flaw in your argument for Berelain ... a lifetime of knowledge cannot be woven as easily as the Illusion which Mesanna would assume.<br /><br />I'm sorry but if Mesanna became Berelain it would be the single biggest act of idiocy in the series. There must be hundreds of people who have met the First , including Aes Sedai. Lucky for her Cadsuane had never met her before or she would have been gravely embarassed when Cad first arrived on the scene.<br /><br />Any Aes Sedai could ask her ... &quot;How did that issue with General blah blah pan out?&quot; ... or... &quot;Is Mayene still have problems with its gold reserves since we last met?&quot;<br /><br />I'm sorry ... but no.<br /><br />And as Etzel's quote provided (just in time to pip me) , we know that Silvie was at least Selene whoever she was. In my opinion Selene was Lanfear but I keep an open mind about it. Not so open that my brains fall out though ... especially victimizing poor Berelain <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">A One Power researcher<br />Defender of Lanfear<br />Grand Ninja-Nae'blis to be feared <br />Original Warder to Isa <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br />New Warder to Nossie <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />Toy to Seriana <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/winky.gif" border="0" /><br />Mystified by a Fan <br />Bonded Phelix - I was young, it happened so fast.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-03-02 02:34:30
subject:
<b>Keep 'em coming <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /></b>

body:
Etzel, I don't think I can agree you with you about the chapter icons.  I picked up on Lanfear's sigil the first time I read TDR more than ten years ago.  If a stupid teenager like me could figure it out, than I'm sure that most readers realize that the moon and stars icon is meant to represent the Daughter of the Night's sigil.  Now, whether that's meant to mislead readers or meant to tip us off that Lanfear is in the chapter is another matter.  In general, I think the argument that it's meant to mislead readers is pretty weak on its own.  It is only looking at that argument in the context of the other things I see about these characters that lends the argument credence in my mind.<br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>I meant that if Lanfear tries to manipulate Rand's friends like Mat and Perrin, she might also visit the Girls.<br />Especially considering that Selene/Lanfear is apparently in the WT, the Lanfear chapter icon and Perrin's Dream.</b></font><br /><br />I understand that, but you need to understand that, in my view, Lanfear doesn't appear until <i>Daughter of the Night</i>.  In that scene, and from that time forward, she never shows any interest in anyone other than Rand, with one exception.<br /><br />&quot; 'I (Lanfear) have watched the girl's dreams, too.  Egwene.  Once I thought you had feelings for her.  Do you know who she dreams of?  Morgase's son and stepson.  The son, Gawyn, most often.'  Smiling, she put on a tone of mock shock.  'You wouldnot believe a simple country girl could such dreams.' &quot; -- <i>Gateways</i><br /><br />Now, I'm sure you interpret it differently, but this only strengthens the idea that Lanfear did not enter the scene until TDR for me.  She was probably keeping an eye on Rand in TAR during his journey to Tear and witnessed the scene between Rand and Egwene in the chapter <i>Tel'aran'rhiod</i>.  If you'll recall, during TGH Egwene hadn't really given Gawyn much thought, she was much more interested in Galad.  That Lanfear states Egwene dreams of Gawyn more often seems a fairly clear indication that Lanfear has been spying on Egwene's more recent dreams, not those from TGH.<br /><br />Going back to Perrin's dream in <i>Shadowbrothers</i>, I do believe the woman in white is Lanfear, in part because it's after <i>Daughter of the Night</i>.  The reason I don't think the woman in braids is Liandrin is because Liandrin isn't anything other than a tool in the plot in Tear.  Liandrin is the cage in the dream, if you will, not the woman directing the trap, and I find it difficult to believe that Lanfear would care enough to notice a worm like Liandrin, even to mock her.  I think it does make sense that she would stand back and mock Mesaana's efforts to curry favor with Be'lal and Ishamael(? if Ishy was directing that effort?) by luring the girls to Tear.  <br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>What would be the point of suddenly letting a Forsaken like Mesaana fall in love with a man (that's obviously how also Min interprets her viewing) on the Lightside shortly before TG?<br /><br />To me, and I figure almost everyone else, it is absurd, something RJ would never do, especially considering the evil, powerhungry characters of the Forsaken where &quot;real love&quot; has no place.<br /></b></font><br />Well, I certainly object to saying that Min obviously interprets her vision to mean that Berelain falls in love.  She doesn't say anything about it beyond the &quot;falling head over heels&quot; comment.  It's entirely reasonable to interpret that as love or lust, either one.<br /><br />The point of having one of the Forsaken fall in love is creating dynamic and interesting characters.  None of RJ's characters are static.  From a character point of view, what's the point of having Balthamel reincarnated as a woman?  It's interesting, that's why.  Having an evil Forsaken mistress that has spent the whole story as a woman able to wrap men around her finger (by reputation if not actual observable fact in the story), fall for a beautiful man, and one that epitomizes good at all costs, is a great twist if you ask me.  It's also the kind of twist that I've come to expect of RJ.<br /><br />You've also brought up the Guide a few times in this discussion, and I want to point a few things out.  <br /><br />Lanfear: &quot;She apparently was killed by Moiraine Sedai when both fell through a <i>ter'angreal</i> doorway in Cairhien.&quot;  That's incorrect.  She was held by the 'Finns after going through the ter'angreal, and we've never learned how or why she was reincarnated.<br /><br />Sammael: &quot;Sammael was last known to be ruling in Illian, under the name Lord Brend, but his present whereabouts cannot be determined.&quot;  Not technically correct, either.  He's dead, and that would seem totally obvious unless you read this entry.<br /><br />Aran'gar and Osan'gar: &quot;Rather, two who were killed have been given new life and new bodies by the Great Lord of the Dark.&quot;  I included this because of ambiguity and the fact Guide is not entirely correct again.  The Guide lists six Forsaken as &quot;dead&quot; - Ishamael, Aginor, Balthamel, Rahvin, Asmodean and Lanfear.  Going by the Guide, one would assume that only two have been reincarnated when, in fact, four have been.  And Moridin was already alive again by the time the Guide came out, after ACoS.  Relying on the Guide is shaky at best.<br /><br />And I still don't think Demandred's comment makes sense in the context of the White Tower.  The Aes Sedai have been the Shadow's primary enemies since the previous Age.  I bet that Demandred would be surprised if the Dark One <i>wasn't</i> trying to infiltrate and sabotage the White Tower from the inside during his long sleep.<br /><br />sidious, the point about Else's behavior in <i>Scouting and Discoveries</i> is not that she's afraid to engage in conversation with Mat.  If that were the case, she would just brush by him and continue on her way.  That would even seem totally in keeping with a woman that is training to become Aes Sedai.  By acting the way she did, Else didn't shorten her conversation with Mat, she actually prolonged it.<br /><br />The point is that Else was afraid Mat would disrupt her Illusion if she allowed him to come in physical contact with her.  A problem that is noticeably absent when Lanfear assumes the guise of Keille.<br /><br />&quot;Illusion worked best the closer you stayed to what was there before, in shape and size at least, so bits of Ebou Dari dress flashed through the Domani garment as Elayne whirled to examine herself in one of the room's two large mirrors.&quot; -- <i>Swovan Night</i><br /><br />Now, what's closer to Lanfear's normal appearance?  Else, with dark hair and dark eyes and a white dress, or short, fat and ugly Keille Shaogi?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Diomedes <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-03-02 03:57:23
subject: <b>Reply to Diomedes</b>
body:
<b> Etzel, I don't think I can agree you with you about the chapter icons. I picked up on Lanfear's sigil the first time I read TDR more than ten years ago. If a stupid teenager like me could figure it out, than I'm sure that most readers realize that the moon and stars icon is meant to represent the Daughter of the Night's sigil. Now, whether that's meant to mislead readers or meant to tip us off that Lanfear is in the chapter is another matter. In general, I think the argument that it's meant to mislead readers is pretty weak on its own. It is only looking at that argument in the context of the other things I see about these characters that lends the argument credence in my mind. </b><br /><br />As said, I also don't believe that RJ misleads with the chapter icons.<br />After all, their meaning is to give the reader a hint about the content of each chapter.<br />This would be foiled if RJ sometimes misleads us with these icons.<br /><br />Therefore it seems rather likely that you see the other things about these characters wrong. <br />But a question about RJ's use of the chapter icons would be interesting for the Q&amp;A.<br /><br /><b> I understand that, but you need to understand that, in my view, Lanfear doesn't appear until Daughter of the Night. In that scene, and from that time forward, she never shows any interest in anyone other than Rand, with one exception.<br /><br />&quot; 'I (Lanfear) have watched the girl's dreams, too. Egwene. Once I thought you had feelings for her. Do you know who she dreams of? Morgase's son and stepson. The son, Gawyn, most often.' Smiling, she put on a tone of mock shock. 'You wouldnot believe a simple country girl could such dreams.' &quot; -- Gateways<br /><br />Now, I'm sure you interpret it differently, but this only strengthens the idea that Lanfear did not enter the scene until TDR for me. She was probably keeping an eye on Rand in TAR during his journey to Tear and witnessed the scene between Rand and Egwene in the chapter Tel'aran'rhiod. If you'll recall, during TGH Egwene hadn't really given Gawyn much thought, she was much more interested in Galad. That Lanfear states Egwene dreams of Gawyn more often seems a fairly clear indication that Lanfear has been spying on Egwene's more recent dreams, not those from TGH. </b><br /><br />Of course Lanfear mentions Egwene's recent, very emotional dreams about Gawyn, not some she had months ago. <br />That doesn't mean Lanfear never cared about the Wondergirls before. <br />Besides, IIRC, Egwene never has so many dreams about Galad in TGH.<br /><br />And that Lanfear tells Rand: &quot;Once I thought you had feelings for her [Egwene]&quot;, most likely points to a time in TGH, where Rand still was unsure about his feelings for Egwene and had not yet a close relationship to any other woman (except Selene). <br /><br /><b> Going back to Perrin's dream in Shadowbrothers, I do believe the woman in white is Lanfear, in part because it's after Daughter of the Night. The reason I don't think the woman in braids is Liandrin is because Liandrin isn't anything other than a tool in the plot in Tear. Liandrin is the cage in the dream, if you will, not the woman directing the trap, and I find it difficult to believe that Lanfear would care enough to notice a worm like Liandrin, even to mock her. I think it does make sense that she would stand back and mock Mesaana's efforts to curry favor with Be'lal and Ishamael(? if Ishy was directing that effort?) by luring the girls to Tear. </b><br /><br />Ah well, I think we simply agree to disagree here since we probably won't convince each other about the interpretation.<br /><br /><b> Well, I certainly object to saying that Min obviously interprets her vision to mean that Berelain falls in love. She doesn't say anything about it beyond the &quot;falling head over heels&quot; comment. It's entirely reasonable to interpret that as love or lust, either one.<br /><br />The point of having one of the Forsaken fall in love is creating dynamic and interesting characters. None of RJ's characters are static. From a character point of view, what's the point of having Balthamel reincarnated as a woman? It's interesting, that's why. Having an evil Forsaken mistress that has spent the whole story as a woman able to wrap men around her finger (by reputation if not actual observable fact in the story), fall for a beautiful man, and one that epitomizes good at all costs, is a great twist if you ask me. It's also the kind of twist that I've come to expect of RJ. </b><br /><br />The interesting thing about Aran'gar for the plot is that she is a saidin channeler in a woman body.<br />This opens some possibilities.<br /><br />On the other hand, that Mesaana will begin to adore Galad (if I understood you right, you believe he is the man in white) seems pointless to me.<br /><br />Especially after her torture in CoT, we can expect that Mesaana will certainly concentrate on helping the DO's plans, not caring about men otherwise.<br /><br />Of course I'm also a bit biased because I identified Beslan as the man in white and don't think that it can be Galad, as I pointed out in my theory &quot;Beslan is Berelain's man in white&quot;.<br /><br /><br />Regarding the Guide, you should also note that the descriptions of Rahvin's, Be'lal's, Asmodean's, Graendal's and Moghedien's fates are very accurate.<br />In the Guide something is stated as a fact if a normal reader knows it from the books without doubt. <br /><br />On the other, e.g. &quot;apparently&quot; is used concerning Lanfear's death since only the characters believe it. <br />So, it was actually a clue by RJ that Lanfear is not dead.<br /><br />A reader knows from the books that Mesaana has placed herself in the WT. <br />Therefore this can be stated as a fact in the Guide and is true.<br />


created: 2005-03-02 12:10:55
subject: <b>Lots of time and effort went into this theory...</b>
body:
...thanks.<br /><br />Massena is hanging her hat in the tower, but as you pointed out, she may be spending less and less time their.<br /><br />Columbo.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2005-03-02 13:46:51
subject: <b>Thanks, Columbo!</b>
body:
I'm really glad that you enjoyed it.  I always like to see people that get something positive out of my writings, even if they don't agree with me <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Etzel, I just don't put too much weight on the chapter icons.  For the most part, they do seem to reveal a tiny bit about the chapter's contents, but I've seen a few where the connection isn't entirely apparent.  And I don't put it past RJ to avoid tipping his hand about Mesaana during the very beginning books by giving the appearance of continuity between Selene's character and the moon and stars icon.  There's also that possibility that Selene is Lanfear in those chapters, but not Else.  I haven't entirely made up my mind one way or the other, although I tend to lean against Selene being Lanfear before <i>Daughter of the Night</i>.<br /><br />Setting aside the Galad and Gawyn issue for the moment, the other interesting thing to me thing about Lanfear's comment regarding Egwene is she said, &quot;Once I thought...&quot;  Back in TGH, however, it's pretty evident that Rand still has strong feelings for Egwene.  She's the entire reason that they didn't leave Falme after recovering the Horn and Dagger, after all.  There seems to me a certain amount of uncertainty in Lanfear's statement to Rand in TFoH, uncertainty that might not be there if she truly had witnessed all the events of TGH.<br /><br />You right about Aran'gar, of course, but I think your dealing with it more in terms of the plot development.  I'm really trying to address it in terms of character development.  It makes Aran'gar's character very dynamic, and much more interesting, that she's a one time womanizer that now inhabits the body of a gorgeous woman.  I can't really say anything about how Mesaana falling for a man in white (Galad, Rolan, Perrin or Beslan - take your pick <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />) is going to effect the plot development.  RJ is simply too unpredictable for me to want to make any kind of speculation about future plot lines.  In terms of character development, and creating characters that are interesting and dynamic, I think it makes a lot of sense to have Mesaana fall for somebody.  Otherwise, the Forsaken as a group seem kind of bland.  They're all just evil, and none of them can ever display any kind of redeeming human emotion or desire.<br /><br />Finally, the Guide also uses &quot;presumably&quot; in discussing Mesaana remaining in the Tower, like it uses &quot;apparently&quot; in talking about Lanfear.  I'm not, after all, trying to suggest that Mesaana doesn't spend time in the Tower, or even that she doesn't spend more time there than any other Forsaken.  It makes perfect sense for the Guide to state that she &quot;established&quot; herself in the Tower, because she did.  That doesn't exclude the possibility that she is also playing another game that has been largely hidden from readers until the end of the story.  Such a twist is something that seems very consistent with RJ's writing style.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Diomedes <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-03-03 12:50:16
subject: <b>Illusion</b>
body:
I don't understand what point you are trying to cover with your reply to me.<br /><br />Lanfear looks more like Else than fat Keille so therefore the Else disguise would be difficult to penetrate. When Graendal turns into the old woman , Sammael said that only the very best illusions could resist the 'touch test'. By all accounts , I can't imagine a channeler of greater dexterity with the Power than the strongest woman. Lanfear would not easily revert to Keille's disguise if she could not maintain it in the waste and surrounded by thousands of people.<br /><br />Despite this , what point were your trying to prove? Surely you don't believe Mesanna looks more like Keille than Else. Her physique is similar to Lanfear's but she looks more ordinary.<br /><br />This drives another point. Cadsuane describes Berelain as a woman of exceptional beauty. Would Mesanna risk her disguise by constantly rubbing up on Perrin and engaging in physical fights with Faile? I think not.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">A One Power researcher<br />Defender of Lanfear<br />Grand Ninja-Nae'blis to be feared <br />Original Warder to Isa <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br />New Warder to Nossie <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />Toy to Seriana <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/winky.gif" border="0" /><br />Mystified by a Fan <br />Bonded Phelix - I was young, it happened so fast.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-03-03 19:10:42
subject: <b>Let me clarify, sidious</b>
body:
Lanfear is Keille.  She's a good enough Illusion maker that touching Mat doesn't compromise her disguise despite the huge difference between her normal physical appearance and her Keille disguise.<br /><br />Whoever is disguised as Else in TDR is very concerned that Mat will touch her and shatter the Illusion.  <br /><br />If Lanfear is Else, why is she very concerned about failing the touch test in a disguise that is basically similar to her true appearance, but completely unconcerned about failing the touch test in a disguise that is completely different from her true appearance?<br /><br />To me, the answer to that question is that Lanfear is not disguised as Else.  If Lanfear were disguised as Else, she wouldn't care whether Mat touched her or not, because she knows that her Illusion is good enough to pass the touch test.<br /><br />And you're wrong about Cadsuane: &quot;Cadsuane ignored the byplay, too, directing a smile to Berelain.  'So this is your Berelain, Annoura.  She is more beautiful than I had heard.' &quot;  Apparently Berelain is not especially reknowned for her beauty.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Diomedes <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-03-04 09:44:10
subject: <b>As usual, a well put-together Theory.</b>
body:
But your reply to sidious doesn`t hold water. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />If Mesaana was disguised as Elsa, and was afraid to let Mat touch her because she isn`t skilled in MoM, how could she possibly carry out her continually on-going masquerade as Berelain?<br /><br />Berelain is not Mesaana. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2005-03-04 09:53:58
subject: <b>Berelain</b>
body:
I think you're wrong about Cadsuane's statement.<br /><br />Jordan has often suggested that Berelain may be one of the best looking women in the series. The Aes Sedai surely told Cadsuane that the First was very beautiful woman.<br /><br />When Cadsuane saw Berelain she realised that she was even more beautiful than she was told , and she said so.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">A One Power researcher<br />Defender of Lanfear<br />Grand Ninja-Nae'blis to be feared <br />Original Warder to Isa <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br />New Warder to Nossie <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />Toy to Seriana <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/winky.gif" border="0" /><br />Mystified by a Fan <br />Bonded Phelix - I was young, it happened so fast.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-03-06 03:58:23
subject: <b>Well, not really jofraz.</b>
body:
It could be as simple as Mesaana not really wearing a dress that's white like a novices.  Selene obviously wears white, and Berelain has worn white on occasion.  Berelain has also worn many other colors, and we know that Mesaana has worn a non-white dress on two occassions when meeting with Alviarin.  Also, her scenes with Alviarin prove that Mesaana can't keep a firm Illusion on her dress when there is a significant difference between the Illusion and the real thing.  Lanfear shows no such concern disguised as Keille, although in truth novice white isn't all that different from Lanfear's normal garb anyway.<br /><br />sidious, I'm not even sure how to respond to that.  Cadsuane sees Berelain and states as fact (she can't lie or even exaggerate very much) that Berelain is more beautiful than she has heard.  I just don't know how you conclude from Cadsuane's statement that she was told Berelain is especially well-known for her beauty.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Diomedes <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-03-06 08:35:24
subject: <b>Just found two interesting answers by RJ</b>
body:
Reported from &quot;Thus Spake the Creator&quot;:<br /><br />Q: &quot;Was Else always Lanfear?&quot;  <br />A: &quot;No. Else did exist as a separate human but was played by Lanfear after Else was expelled.&quot;<br /><br />This is an explicit statement that Lanfear played Else, not Mesaana.  <br /><br />And furthermore RJ says:<br /><br />Q: &quot;In the Great Hunt, was Lanfear present to inspire the Dark Prophecy about &quot;Daughter of the Night, she walks again?&quot; <br />A: &quot;Of course she was about...&quot; <br />Q: &quot;But was she present in Fal Dara?&quot; <br />A: [after a weighing look deciding not to answer: ] &quot;Read And Find Out.&quot;<br /><br />RJ says &quot;<i> of course </i> she was about&quot; because we see Lanfear as Selene in TGH.<br /><br />Considering these both questions, it's clear that the persons in the WT who seem to be Lanfear are Lanfear, not Mesaana. <br />


created: 2005-03-06 11:00:33
subject: <b>LOL</b>
body:
Listen , Diomedes , I don't really see why you don't understand my point.<br /><br />Aes Sedai &quot;Berelain is a woman of great beauty Cadsuane.&quot;<br />Cadsuane &quot;I will see for myself thank you.&quot;<br /><br />Later Cadsuane sees Berelain as says &quot;You are more beautiful that I was lead to believe.&quot;<br /><br />What is so odd about that?<br /><br />And Etzel ... I am so glad you found that statement by RJ which sinks the Mesanna debate , and possibly even negates the fact that Mesanna was ever Selene. Both of RJ's answers show an interesting trend ... he is not trying to be cryptic.<br /><br />When he shows us a woman in white who is really beautiful he is literally shouting that she is Lanfear. It is the same for Anath. RJ is clearly portraying Semirhage and all attempts to prove that she is another FS or not a FS at all are reaching for a conspiracy which he is not energetic enough to create.<br /><br />I'll bet that Anath is Semirhage , just like I knew that Selene and Else were Lanfear. All those who wish to bet otherwise are welcome to. Congrats Etzel , I'm very impressed. Thank the Creator for RJ's statement.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">A One Power researcher<br />Defender of Lanfear<br />Grand Ninja-Nae'blis to be feared <br />Original Warder to Isa <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br />New Warder to Nossie <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />Toy to Seriana <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/winky.gif" border="0" /><br />Mystified by a Fan <br />Bonded Phelix - I was young, it happened so fast.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-03-07 14:05:18
subject: <b>About Else</b>
body:
I know I've missed most of the discussion, but I've been gone for four days without access to a computer.  I kinda feel bad about replying more in-depth, but I generally agree with Etzel and sidious about why Berelain couldn't be Mesaana.<br /><br />About the Else-Kielle contrast, however, Lanfear as Else was merely started that Mat recognized/knew Else.  Mat's meeting with Else came before Lanfear was freed, and she would have no idea that Mat would recognize some random farmer's daughter from central Andor.  Thusly, she had no idea how he would react to Else -- for all she knew, Mat and Else could have been intimate.  With Kielle, she controlled the situation completely (for one thing, noone would WANT to touch her), and a few flows of air on the pudgy hand would contain the situation and allow &quot;Kielle&quot; to do what she pleased.<br /><br />As Else, Mat's knowledge of her MoM comes as a complete shock.  She doesn't know how to handle the situation, so removes herself as best she can.


created: 2005-03-07 17:58:19
subject: <b>Eliminating Berlain/Mesaana connection</b>
body:
Min's Berlain viewing about the man in white.<br />In every instance when min is viewing persons of power she recognizes them as such due to their jumbled auras she makes no such coment's in regards to Berlain


created: 2005-03-15 12:49:50
subject: <b>Illusion.</b>
body:
The point is that Else was afraid Mat would disrupt her Illusion if she allowed him to come in physical contact with her. A problem that is noticeably absent when Lanfear assumes the guise of Keille.<br /><br />Now, we know <br />1- that Mesaana is not too good at illusion.<br />2- Berelain is stunningly beautiful.<br />3- Berelain intended to sleep with Rhuarc, Rand and Perrin.<br />4- Unless the illusion woven is close to the truth, it is disturbed by touch.<br />5- If you intend to sleep with someone, you obviously expect them to touch you.<br />6- When Alviarin sees Mesaana's real face, there is no mention of her being beautiful.<br /><br />So, if mesaana was afraid that Mat would disrupt her illusion, how is it that she is so confident that Rand or Perrin will not??<br /><br />Conclusion- Mesaana is neither Else nor Berelain, and by the same arguments, not Selene in TGH.


created: 2005-03-15 12:55:39
subject: <b>Oh, and Stony565</b>
body:
Min does not realise that Marigan(Moghedien) can channel. Most probably because she had hidden her ability.


created: 2005-03-21 12:33:31
subject: <b>Mesaana is Masuri</b>
body:
This is my first post on this board, so I hope I'm not singed by the flames...<br /><br />Masuri is the only other Aes Sedai I can remember who taps her finger against her lips (Crossroads Of Twilight, the Darkhounds chapter). When Alviarin kneels before Mesaana, she notices &quot;A finger of shadow tapped silver lips thoughtfully&quot;.<br /><br /><br />Also, Masuri has been meeting Masema in secret. It is easier to turn a zealot into a Darkfriend, than a sane, calm dude. A controlled Masema can spread Chaos like no one else...<br /><br /> Two possibilities here:<br />1. Masuri is in her middle years, and has been away from the tower for quite a while. Alviarin may not have recognized her.<br />2. This seems more likely - Mesaana may have assumed Masuri's identity, and it's easy for her to pass herself off as a Brown, especially a Brown who now has the Wise One's as well as Perrin's trust.<br /><br />A person who can disguise everything about themselves can still give themselves away with a mannerism.<br /><br />Let me know what you think.<br /><br /><br />


created: 2005-03-23 08:30:04
subject: <b>Selene's anger</b>
body:
The Guide states that when Lanfear went iver to the Shadow she was particularly anti Aes Sedai - which is saying something for a Forsaken. That she talks about Aes Sedai with scorn later on doesnt mean she doesn't hate them, and hate and anger are 2 sides of the same coin - ask any Jedi!<br />Mesaana only has condescension for Aes Sedai in the modern era, as she is willing to spen so much time in the White Tower.<br />SO .... Rand and Selene in TGH : Selene shows knowledge of the Portal Stones plus she somehow used one to get to that Mirror World (BTW has anyone figured out HTF she knew which world to appear in?). Rand asks loads of time if she is Aes Sedai, and she gets angry, practically spitting at one point - &quot;Again you throw that in my face!&quot; She is ANGRY and has hate for modern Aes Sedai.<br />Also it is Selene who goes rummaging about in Rand's bags, and MOST importantly of all RAND ENCOUNTERS THE CRHN STATUE IN SELENE'S COMPANY. Only Lanfear is really associated with Rand and the Choedan Koel, indeed later on it is Lanfear who mentions their existence to him - she is the FS expert on them it seems.<br />So Selene was LAnfear, and was always Lanfear.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;We wont give a fig,<br /> We'll tell you to,<br /> Go stick your head in a pig!&quot;<br />  The Sirius Cybernetics Customer Services Helpline - Share and Enjoy!</font><p></p>


created: 2005-10-28 13:31:39
subject: <b>Lanfear</b>
body:
Ok i dont no if this was said because i didnt bother to read all the comments but Else is very VERY obviously Lanfear. When (i believe it was Egwene) went chasing after Else to tell her to keep her mouth shut...she runs into the most beautiful woman she has seen, who is graceful enough to make Egwene feel like a bumbling sumthing or another. She was also dressed all in silver and white. Hmmm....sound like anyone we no....duh<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smackhead.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">WAFFLES!<br />Bonded to Model_02<br />Alicia wishes she was as hot as me<br />Member of Anatidaephobians Anonymous<br />Not-So-Near Second Cousin to Saeric Greylord<br />Officially better at hockey than DREWRULESWOT!<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-03-02 08:14:40
subject: <b>Interesting</b>
body:
i never atributed her death to the black aljh before<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-03-02 09:00:14
subject: <b>ya,</b>
body:
yah, i agree with you...but if mordrellen's the queen, i guess the king would have to be ethenielle's husband?(forgot his name) or somebody before him....he was the only king that was positively named that the black ajah has killed...(although this was years after the war of succession)


created: 2005-03-02 09:04:27
subject: <b>Nice job</b>
body:
Not sure that this is a provable proposition, but you offer some strong circumstantial evidence.<br /><br /><br />TFK


created: 2005-03-02 09:49:53
subject: <b>Nice Theory, Etzel</b>
body:
While it is possible to die of a broken heart, it doesn`t seem that one so young as Mordrellen would succumb.<br /><br />IIRC, Ishamael was in the world at that time, and could have ordered it to create chaos.<br /><br />To pier1<br /><br />Ethenielle`s husband was not a King, but a Queen`s Consort.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2005-03-02 10:13:23
subject: <b>The killed king</b>
body:
As jofraz said, the title of Ethenielle`s husband Brys was Prince Consort, not king. But maybe Galina meant him.<br /><br />Another idea would be Tylin's husband, who died 10 years ago, while Tylin was still quite young (though I don't see a good motive).<br /><br />Or perhaps it was Tenobia's father. <br />Certainly it would be in the interest of the Shadow to kill a Borderland ruler who has only a young daughter as heir, thus trying to weaken the largest Borderland Saldaea. <br /><br />It's also still possible that Tenobia is a DF herself. <br />Or that a ruler in another country was killed to allow a DF to become the next king.


created: 2005-03-02 10:29:01
subject: <b>what if....</b>
body:
the king and queen that galina spoke of were df them selves who had failed<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-03-02 11:09:24
subject: <b>Interesting possiblity</b>
body:
It's probably not something that will be explained further, though.  It's probably just one of those things RJ likes to throw out there and let his readers make their own interpretations.  Unless it somehow ties in with Morgase figuring out that Galina is Black Ajah.  I rather believe that those two have recognized each other by CoT.<br /><br />You'll have to forgive me if I chuckle about you wanting to dismiss what the Guide says in this particular case <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Diomedes <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-03-02 12:39:51
subject: <b>To Diomedes</b>
body:
<b> It's probably not something that will be explained further, though. It's probably just one of those things RJ likes to throw out there and let his readers make their own interpretations. Unless it somehow ties in with Morgase figuring out that Galina is Black Ajah. I rather believe that those two have recognized each other by CoT. </b><br /><br />It's possible that RJ doesn't intend to reveal this in the books. <br />In this case he would probably reveal who the rulers were in a Q&amp;A.<br /><br /><b> You'll have to forgive me if I chuckle about you wanting to dismiss what the Guide says in this particular case </b> <br /><br />I believe that every comment in the Guide must be regarded carefully.<br />One has to look if it's supported in the books and who apparently makes this comment.<br /><br />The books simply say that it is supposed that Mordrellen died of grief. <br />Therefore the statement in the Guide sounds like the official version about her manner of death which would be written e.g. in history books.<br /><br />However, considering that the BA killed a queen and that normally RJ's mysterious can be solved, it makes sense that Mordrellen was actually killed, and that the Guide is wrong in this particular case (though it tells us the prevailing opinion in Randland).


created: 2005-03-02 13:00:15
subject: <b>Well founded</b>
body:
Isn't Gitara Moroso the one that told Tigraine that she must leave and didn't Gitara foresee that Tigraine would bear the dragon?<br /><br />I don't know about the motive portion of the theory, it seems thin, why chaos?<br /><br />Could it be that Elaida is black - she had the foretelling that whoever governed Andor would have a pivotal part in the play, so to speak.  That is why when it was clear Morgaese would be queen she attached herself to her -<br /><br />Anyway - plots within plots, I like you theory, just don't know about the motive part.<br /><br />Cindy<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="blue">Bondholder of Neroto Yoduff &amp; TEO<br />Sce`c of Nicodemus26 The Mighty Midget<br />Ambassador Isa ~ The Rebel Blue!<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /></font></font><p></p>


created: 2005-03-02 16:01:57
subject: <b>oooh</b>
body:
maybe since gitara was also the head of the red, elaida told her of her foretelling about the ruling house of andor.  alarm bells went off in gitara's head, she warned her cronies and went about making andor unstable.  hmmmm...<br /><br />and yes, i voted yes...v nice theory...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;It's ridiculous to suggest that a team could go through a season in our league without losing. It's comical, just comical.&quot; Alex Ferguson 27th September 2002<br /><br />gooner...red and white army...<br /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gimli.gif" border="0" /> my soulmate<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/clown.gif" border="0" /> my nemesis</font><p></p>


created: 2005-03-02 16:04:27
subject: <b>looks good</b>
body:
and makes perfect sense. but, what would make Andor important? if i weren't lazy, i might go look for evidence...<br /><br />and as to the guide: the guide states what is 'known' by historians <i>in randland.</i> so, what they believe is likely what is believed in the books, so they might be wrong, so the guide might be wrong.<br /><br />good as usual, etzel!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">-Sabin<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-03-02 17:03:58
subject: <b>Interesting...</b>
body:
Unfortunately, with a lack of any real evidence, it is pure speculation. However, the logic of it does make sense.<br /><br />On to the fun - who was the King. I think that we should look at the potential gain for the shadow by the death of a King. I find it likely that shadow would kill a King in order to succeed him with a DF. It is often speculated that there is a DF ruler out there someplace. So let's look at the nations:<br /><br />Andor - queen, forget it.<br /><br />Tear - no king there<br /><br />Illian - Martin was around for a long time, and is/was almost certainly not a DF. Not consistent with events that took place.<br /><br />Altara - currently a queen. Rather insignificant ruler - not likely.<br /><br />Tarabon - possibly, but we don't know much...<br /><br />Arad Domon - Graendal's actions would lead us to believe it is not here.<br /><br />Ghealdan - possibly, but I doubt it.<br /><br />Murundy - no real King, not likely<br /><br />Saldea - I find this to a good possibility. If so, Tenobia = DF.<br /><br />Kandor - not likely - Ethenielle has been around a while, but possible<br /><br />Arafel - possible<br /><br />Shienar - another possibilty<br /><br />Cairhen - Lamon died for other reasons, not likely<br /><br />and finally:<br /><br />Malkier - yep remember it? I think that this is by far the most likely candidate.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Need a book to read - check out my blog for ideas.</font><p><a href="http://nethspace.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">Neth Space</a></p><p></p>


created: 2005-03-02 17:45:24
subject: <b>Like a few others said above,</b>
body:
if Galina found out about Elaida's first Fortelling, it gives her a motive to have the Mantears removed from power( or at least have Mordrellan killed).  This action would be consistant with the general BA activity of that time.  That's to say, if they hear about a factor that could cause the DO to lose at TG, kill it.<br /><br />Also, kcf makes a good point for Lan's father being the king that Galina was refering to.  We the Shadow was involved in it, either through Cowin Fairheart (as history records) or more likely through Jain Farstrider.  Except for the problem that the king didn't die, more than likely, until the Shadowspawn reached the Seven Towers, it makes perfect sense.


created: 2005-03-02 18:09:52
subject: <b>Don't think so</b>
body:
I doubt she was killed with the OP. Someone who dies of grief (unless it's a suicide) usually takes a fairly long time to die and it it quite apparent. I think everybody knew that Modrellen was grief stricken and she probably just faded away.<br /><br />NaCl(a BA assasination would have been too quick)H2O <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Any comments on my photos appreciated</font><p><a href="http://saltwater.smugmug.com/" target="_blank">My photos, a work in progress</a></p><p></p>


created: 2005-03-02 19:47:38
subject: <b>How do we know any time frames?</b>
body:
Galina is the Head of the Red Ajah, which surely indicates a sister of some years.  She could have had any one of the many rulers in the two centuries or so killed.  For instance, since the USA was founded 230 years ago, England has had at least seven monarchs (I'm pretty sure, not certain of exact numbers), two of whom, George III and Victoria, are among the longest reigning in European history.  In about 200 years or so, the thirteen nations with a monarch could have had more than 90.  Since Eye of the World, the rulers of Cairhien, Illian, Andor, Ghealdan, Amadicia, Tarabon, and Altara have all died or disappeared.  In addition, several Tairen High Lords have also died, and the Lord Captain Commander of the Whitecloaks, the First Counsel of Far Madding, and the Amyrlin Seat have all been deposed in an internal coup.  And that is in less than two years.  Granted these are extreme times, but still, a lot can happen.  Also we have no way of knowing how old Modrellen or Tigraine was.  Morgase had Elayne when she was 25, but since no one is taking note of Elayne's age in regards to her pregnancy, as young as 18 is not remarkable. By the same token, Tenobia of Saldaea is eight years older than her married cousin Faile, and is still unwed with no prospects.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


created: 2005-03-02 21:49:38
subject: <b>not two hundred.</b>
body:
she has been aes sedai for fewer than ninety years, and all but five she has been black ajah.  she has been head of the red for nearly twenty [years].


created: 2005-03-03 03:09:43
subject: <b>To Mazza3 and kcf</b>
body:
Mazza3:<br />I agree completely with you. It is highly likely that Galina attempted to throw off the Light's plans by speaking the name of someone in the Royal Line.<br /><br />kcf:<br />I agree completely with you as well. As soon as I read it, I figured Lan's father had to be it, especially considering that we KNOW he was killed with the involvement of a Darkfriend, Cowin Fairheart.


created: 2005-03-03 03:24:04
subject: <b>Replies...</b>
body:
To kcf,<br /><br />It's possible, but I rather don't believe that Lan's father was the king she meant.<br />He was killed in the Trolloc battle, some time after the sheme of the DF Cowin Gemallan.<br /><br />It sounds to me that if the BA names a certain king to die, his death happens quickly due assassination, not by creating war and hoping that the king might die in it.<br /><br />Also it's possible, but a bit less likely that Galina was already in the Supreme Council at this time (think he died around twenty years before Mordrellen's death).<br /><br /><br />To Fred Gaidin,<br /><br /><b> if Galina found out about Elaida's first Fortelling, it gives her a motive to have the Mantears removed from power( or at least have Mordrellan killed). This action would be consistant with the general BA activity of that time. That's to say, if they hear about a factor that could cause the DO to lose at TG, kill it. </b><br /><br />Yes, good point.<br /><br /><br />To NaClH2O,<br /><br /><b> I doubt she was killed with the OP. Someone who dies of grief (unless it's a suicide) usually takes a fairly long time to die and it it quite apparent. I think everybody knew that Modrellen was grief stricken and she probably just faded away. </b><br /><br />Well, Dyelin isn't sure, but just supposes this manner of death.<br />Besides, Mordrellen's death happened quite quickly after Tigraine went away.<br /><br /><br />To Cannoli,<br /><br />As johan said, Galina is BA since 80 and a few years. <br /><br />Certainly she wasn't the most time of these years sitting in the Supreme Council where she could have learned about the king and queen.


created: 2005-03-03 11:06:23
subject: <b>I agree.</b>
body:
Thanks Etzel!<br /><br />Columbo.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2005-03-03 13:36:40
subject: <b>Yes</b>
body:
I agree. Good catch and well written! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">A One Power researcher<br />Defender of Lanfear<br />Grand Ninja-Nae'blis to be feared <br />Original Warder to Isa <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br />New Warder to Nossie <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />Toy to Seriana <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/winky.gif" border="0" /><br />Mystified by a Fan <br />Bonded Phelix - I was young, it happened so fast.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-03-08 04:33:35
subject: <b>guess on the king</b>
body:
it might be the fellow Siuan wanted to put on the Murandian throne, everyone agreed that that would stabilize the south-east, bad thing in BA POV. Besides his death was kind of suspicious, killed by an arrow during a raid according to Gareth.


created: 2005-03-08 20:12:57
subject: <b>The King</b>
body:
If Saldea's king was killed by the black ajah, and Tenobia ia a darkfriend, then this would probably mean that davram and faile are also darkfriends. However, we would have learned this already from one of thier POVs, so they are not darkfriends. Tenobia is very close to her uncle davram, and it was he who got her the throne. SO I think that it is highly unlikely that Tenobia is a darkfriend.<br />Saldea's king could have been the one killed though, because it isnt likely that it was her father. It is said more than once that Davram Bashere helped Tenobia to get the throne. If her father was king, and she was his heir, then the throne would have gone to her at the time of his death. The only way that there would be any question as to who could get the throne would be if when the king/queen <br />died, they had no heir, and so if might go to another house.<br />Also it seems that the dark one would like to create chaos in anyway. Killing a queen with no heir, and so causing a war, would be the kind of thing that a the black ajah might think of as fun<br /><br />~maggiemay


created: 2005-08-31 01:30:42
subject: <b>good point</b>
body:
Makes sense to me that Mordrellan would be killed, especially of the BA thought that she had something to do with the Dragon Reborn.<br /><br />A couple points;<br /><br />Doesn't the BA kill the Amyrillan (sp before she says anything? <br /><br />&quot;Supposed&quot; &quot;thought to&quot; etc meand the assumptions are likely wrong.<br /><br />Elaida's foregelling was that the royal house would have a big role.  She charateristically misinterpretted that to meant the NEXT house.  The one she foretold was Mantear, which is Rand, Tigraine and Luc.  Rand and most likely Luc/Isam/Slayer will have a ig part in the last Battle.


created: 2005-03-06 03:59:36
subject: <b>like your theory, allthough i voted no</b>
body:
i think its too much speculation, and too little evidence.<br /><br />we havent seen any reference (to my knowledge) to any past lives of Mierin, and as far as she`s concerned, i believe shes just one very obsessed woman, that when it is clear to her , that she cant win over the Dragon, decides that if he cant be hers nobody should have him.


created: 2005-03-06 09:31:33
subject: <b>woo!</b>
body:
i think its a great idea, novel certainly and explains a few things, like Ishys strength not changed and Cyndane/Lanfears' weakened.<br /><br />also Mierin and Lews Therin are very cool characters,<br /> and she is much better than Elayne Avi and Min even combined, <br />coz she always wore the same dress, so there was no need to describe the different items of clothing she wore. <br /><br />though jordan did that anyway. DAmn.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Surprising what you can dig out of books if you read long enough, isn't it?&quot; -- Rand Al'Thor<br /><br />&quot;I of course have zero evidence for this, but since when has that stopped any of us?&quot; -- David Wren-Hardin <br /><br />Oh, transatlantic Love!<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-03-06 10:36:30
subject: <b>As the others said...</b>
body:
A very intriguing theory and coherent in itself. Would explain some things.<br /><br />I found one a bit related RJ Q&amp;A:<br /><br />Q: There's a suggestion in the books that Lanfear was believed to be as strong as any female channeler could ever become. What was the reason for that belief? <br />A: Read and find out! <br /><br />Apparently there will be an explanation for this belief, and I don't buy the idea that the Finn changed her. <br /><br />So, maybe you are right, and Mierin was made perfect by the pattern, so to speak (though I'm not sure how we could learn about this in the next books).<br />


created: 2005-03-06 11:19:45
subject: <b>interesting</b>
body:
its hard to decide either way, but this is a very interesting thought. personally, i've always thought Lanfear/mierin/cyndane(/avi elayne min?) is a much more interesting  character than ilyena.<br /><br />one small point against ilyena being set into place to distract LTT. LTT gave up Lanfear before he ever saw Ilyena. maybe you talked about that and i just missed it, i was up for literally 20 hours yesterday...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">-Sabin<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-03-06 11:44:00
subject: <b>It is a cool concept, but I can't honestly vote for it.</b>
body:
All you have for evidence for your interpretation of known events are several statements from Lanfear.  It could be evidence of her higher purpose, or even if she is claiming to be what you say she is, it could also be delusional self-aggrandizement.  Why has Min had no viewings of her connection to Rand, the way she saw Birgitte's connection to Gaidal Cain?  Instead, the first viewing she has of Rand is that three other women are bound to him and necessary for his destiny, none of whom is Lanfear.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


created: 2005-03-06 20:26:49
subject: <b>Interesting</b>
body:
Very logical, but lacks proof as to whether this is possible, alot of good ideas and it would be quite interesting.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Changing the world, one page at a time.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/seanchan.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-03-06 21:54:29
subject: <b>What about the end of the Second Age?</b>
body:
IIRC, the Third Age (AoL) began with the (re)discovery of channeling, not the drilling of a bore; I don't think that the DO was released right before that. Apparently the power is the only way to free him; his prison (being outside of time) isn't a material one, I don't think. Therefore, I don't think he can be freed in an age without channeling. That's the only bit that doesn't make sense to me. If you said that Mierin freed the DO every few ages, though, I would agree. Excellent theory anyway.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">The Owl of Minerva flies only at dusk, but the Penguin of Idiotochus waddles all day long.<br />I never fight fire with fire; that's what they expect. No, I fight fire with dead leaves.<br /><br />Zeroinbarnotation, RMCM</font><p></p>


created: 2005-03-07 01:47:14
subject: <b>Very good, I agree</b>
body:
This is a very well compiled theory, I totally agree with this theory. <br />Good job dude sidious, keep it up.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Signing off in light, <br />Ajit.<br /><br />&quot;If reasons were as plenty as blueberries, I would give none on compulsion&quot;. <br />-Shakespeare.<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-03-07 09:56:51
subject: <b>doubt she is tied to the wheel</b>
body:
While interesting, you have no way of proving it.  Lanfear is more than a little crazy with her obsession over LTT.  I interpret most of your quotes from her as signs of her mental instability.  It is not a surprise that the most powerful woman channeler knows the most powerful male channeler.  While both are archetypes, I think that her quest for power totally disgusted LTT, as it does Rand.  If the Dragon's personality is always similar, so must hers be.   In that case, she would always be rejected by the Dragon.  I doubt the creator made a 'companion' for the Dragon that he would reject.<br /><br />Let's keep in mind that we are only seeing a small part of one turning of the wheel.  For all we know, in past turnings, the DO was broken out of his prison by a different method.  Maybe a circle of women and men, lead by a man, broke through?  The Forsaken are simply the surviving bad guys from the last age.  Maybe sometimes there are no survivors, maybe there are many more, who knows?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">May you be successful  in all your projects.<br /><br />I am a pastafarion.  The Flying Spaghetti Monster created the universe, and no one in Kansas can prove me wrong.<br /><br />http://www.vengaza.org</font><p></p>


created: 2005-03-07 12:07:51
subject: <b>I have to disagree with this</b>
body:
One of my problems with this is the idea that Lainfear was a perfect specimen put forward by the Pattern.  Part of your support for this is that Cyndane thinks that no other person could be stronger in the Power than she had been.  I would hardly trust that her opinion on the matter makes fact.  If she was reborn for this role over and over, how would she know her purpose in the Pattern as Cyndane when she didn't as Lanfear.  She must have a reason for thinking it is true, but I find it hard to believe that it is because she had an epiphany and knows now that she is linked to the Dragon and the Pattern.  I feel that something else must be leading her to this hypothesis, which is still unverifiable as being true.<br /><br />Another problem I have with this is the idea that the Pattern intentially causes the end of an age.  I don't buy that the Pattern intends to setup the release of the DO.  The DO is an entity outside the Pattern that exerts a force onto it.  The ta'veren or spun out to help compensate for this very thing: to put the Pattern back on the right track.  This implies that the DO's influence is unwanted.  The DO is the only force introduced in the series that has the ability to change the Pattern (I would not count Balefire since it doesn't have any of the control displayed by the DO, it can't change the laws of Nature).  <br /><br />It was the DO's influence on the Pattern that resulted in the birth of LTT.  It is possible that the thinness in the Pattern found by Meirin was a result of the DO.  I would argue the Pattern could tell that the DO was about to cause a great disruption to its planned coarse and spun out the Dragon soul to counter it.  Meirin's involement is more or less coincidental.  It could've been Bob from the corner drug store the drilled the Bore and the Pattern would've found the results equally undesirable.  <br /><br />I think it is reasonable to say that the cyclic nature of the Wheel is not something programmed into it, but that it is a result of the Wheel's never ending need to correct for the one power that has the ability to change it, the DO.  Without the DO, the Wheel could very well reach a stability that would no longer require the ta'veren or other Heroes of the Horn.  Now this isn't to say that the DO doesn't also serve as a kind of balance to the system, only that the Pattern doesn't set him up, it only works against him.


created: 2005-03-08 13:13:34
subject: <b>Elayne/Min/Avi</b>
body:
Also, I doubt that Rand could possibly be destined to destroy all three of his lovers.  It would probably happen all at the same time if it did, and I can see no instance where the three girls would be together, even in The Last Battle. (Elayne would be w/ Andor, Min with Rand, and Avi with her Aiel.)


created: 2005-03-08 14:03:25
subject: <b>.</b>
body:
About the three girls not being together in the Last Battle, I think you're wrong. None of them will pass up the chance to link with Rand, and help him fight. Or, if they don't link, they will be at least watching his back.<br /><br />About the theory, I don't belive it. If Mierin was perfect, why in the world would she go over to the Shadow? The Dragon soul never crossed over (I belive Rand far more than Ishy, and he does have a couple of ancient memories), so I could believe that Rand is the &quot;perfect&quot; specimen. Not Lanfear/Mierin though.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">http://www.orkut.com/Profile.aspx?uid=4841668765074332965<br /><br />&quot;It's like God gave you the tools to build a house, and the blueprint is in you. Just remember to use rubber gloves.&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2005-03-08 19:47:42
subject: <b>Very interesting..</b>
body:
Very interesting... I am (still) digesting this fully, but it all sounds Jordan-esque.  Very good.  I applaud you on the time it took you to surmise this, and the high intellect you seem to have acquired as well.  Congratulations. <br /><br />  ~~Is_Not_A_Bloody_Lord2.0


created: 2005-03-08 20:10:12
subject: <b>IT WAS A GOOD READ.....THANKS.</b>
body:
<br /><br /><br />COLUMBO.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2005-03-09 11:39:06
subject: <b>Question</b>
body:
Why couldn't Lanfear be the female counterpart to Ishamael, and Nynaeve or one of the wonder girls be the female counterpart for Rand? I just don't see that the balance would be one perfect model in Rand and two bad perfect models in Ishamael and Lanfear...Other than that cool theory


created: 2005-03-10 16:24:34
subject: <b>Rand, Moridin, and Lanfear</b>
body:
First, i don't think that Lanfear is that &quot;perfect&quot;, I for one believed that the Finn did change her back in the AoL, that why in her reborn stat(or maybe the Finn took it away after she fell though the door)  She was surprised that another was stronger then she.  Second, the I believe that everone of importance will be present at the last battle, Rand will need his three loves there, Rand is almost to the point of hateing Lews Therin, he will not make the same mistakes as he did, Rand will not kill the girls, even if he has to kill him self first.  It is Therin's wife that makes up the three girls, for not only his Rand attracted to them, but so was LTT.  I think Lanfear was just swept up in the wheel.  This all is really between the Dragon, Ish, now Moridin, and the Dark One.  These souls I believe wil always be the only ones that will change the pattern.


created: 2005-03-16 14:16:58
subject: <b>Wow... Kudos</b>
body:
Excellent, novel...and well presented.  As others have said, there is a lot of good speculation on your part...but man, you wove a great tale.  Very very unique and very interesting... <br /><br />thank you...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">We really swing in the <font color="green">Green</font>...<br />-JAGW <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> --Just Another swingin'...errr...sword and never in the <font color="green">Lime</font>light.<br /><br />It ain't easy being <font color="green">Green</font>... <i>--Kermit the Frog</i></font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-31 04:58:37
subject: <b>Flawed (alot of information thrown together)</b>
body:
From all the information we received about the Finns, mainly from matts experience in Rhuid and Matt, Moiraine, and Rands in Tear.  Conclusion 2 or more people can enter at same time and never see another person there.  (reference from TDR when Rand walks out after Matt and then Moiraine shows up).  From some of the legends that bards tell you can also determine that time doesn't effect finnland the same way it does randland.  (something about someone walking out 50 years later with a neverending sack of gold)  Also from the battle at Shadar Logoth, Lanfear/Cyndane makes a reference to her time in Finnland, not her death, (about how no woman could be stronger than her, it was impossible even before the finns.  Now take into fact that Matt tried to go back into the door in tear and walked through and nothing happened.  Means you can't go back.  Door in Rhuid, when matt talks to finns they told him he should have set terms before making bargain, since no terms where made, they will make them for you.  Matt didn't leave through the door in Rhuid, which means you dont need the door to get out.<br /><br />From all that information you can determine, <br />1. Moiraine and Lanfear never saw each other upon falling through doorway.  They where immediately seperated.<br /><br />2. Lanfear made a bargain with the finns to get out, part of that bargain, took away her beauty and some of her power in the OP.  Real question is did she gain anything other than her freedom.<br /><br />3. Moiraine hasn't left the finnland, possibly because she refuses to give up what they want for her freedom, or Part of Lanfears bargain was to keep moiraine there.<br /><br />4. You can't go there more than once, from the Moiraines trip to Rhuid circles she would have seen Lanfear falling through the door to enter.  Which means thats Lanfears first trip to finnland for all you believers that think Lanfear went there before and thats why she so strong now.


created: 2005-12-09 13:50:20
subject: <b>Thx!</b>
body:
I liked having the most beautiful woman ever by Rand&#180;s side and I didn&#180;t like Lanfear dying. <br />I really likes the theory even if I doubt that it&#180;ll be shown true by RJ...


created: 2008-07-22 16:40:22
subject: <b>lanfear and the weal response</b>
body:
erm when ishameal pretended 2 b ba'alamazon he said that lews therin always failed 2 stop the dark 1 and often went over to him with every turn of the wheel something changes the creater basically has a game of dice with the dark 1 as 2 wat happens next now im not a fan of this theorie but could it be that the last turn they threw in a certain female in the last round of the dice or possibly she is still in the wheel as you say her equivelent could be eguene strong in OP  pretty lover of rand before darkone came into thier lives kinda left shortly before<br />


created: 2005-03-08 20:19:46
subject: <b>I like this-a thumb up.</b>
body:
Whether everything is correct is unknown, but the idea of saidin at the head of the river and saidar past the waterwheel is a great analogy.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2005-03-09 04:06:40
subject: <b>A great theory!</b>
body:
I love this, it explains so much. Of course its a hypothesis only and will remain so unless the &quot;Creator&quot; deigns to tell us for sure.<br /><br />Why shouldnt we have One Power theories? They are as good as any other theories. Excellent job!


created: 2005-03-09 05:11:00
subject: <b>Good thinking!</b>
body:
I like your analogies as well. <br />The way you depict the workings of the Wheel, the True Source, the One Power &amp; Channeling, makes it easier to understand everything.


created: 2005-03-09 12:01:38
subject:
<b>Nicely done!! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /></b>

body:
Like Etzel says - It makes everything easier to understand.<br /><br />Nice job - thank you.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="blue">Bondholder of Neroto Yoduff &amp; TEO<br />Sce`c of Nicodemus26 The Mighty Midget<br />Ambassador Isa ~ The Rebel Blue!<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /></font></font><p></p>


created: 2005-03-09 15:47:33
subject: <b>Interesting Analogy</b>
body:
Wow. It took my brain a few minutes to grow accustomed to all the mataphors in there, but all in all that was a great theory. Well done, well thought out.<br /><br />T<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lan.gif" border="0" /> Warder to Whoever Will Have Me <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />More Than Twice as Cool As: <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> Hotter Than the Sun <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /> Entirely In Love With Myself <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-03-09 16:37:15
subject: <b>very good</b>
body:
interesting ideas.<br /><br />i like the many analogies, they always seem to be the best possible way to describe the one power.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">-Sabin<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-03-10 08:04:22
subject: <b>Just a thought</b>
body:
Interesting thought but if as you say sadin is the head of the river flowing towards sadair i think the taint would have to have some effect on sadair... i just don't see how tainting one half of the source would have no effect on the other... after all if you poison a river the poison will flow downstream.<br /><br />Just spitballing but consider the possibility that the younger lifespans and lesser power of female channelers could be the effect of the taint flowing down the 'river'


created: 2005-03-10 13:02:41
subject: <b>Hmm...</b>
body:
While you make some good point you also leave some big holes and make some sweeping assumptions.<br /><br />the two that stuck out.<br /><br />you say:<br /><br />&quot;She (or he) clears her/his mind from anything, causing the state of &quot;oneness&quot;, also sometimes called &quot;the Void&quot;. How does a pump work? It causes pressure by driving out something else, and that pressure makes the liquid flow in the required direction&quot;<br /><br />and <br /><br /><br />&quot;But what makes the channeler able to maintain channeling? Only by maintaining a state of serenity by keeping all the emotions aside. I.e. holding the Power is maintained by keeping pumping it.&quot;<br /><br />but this doesn't answer situations like Nynaeve who needs to be angry to hold the power in the beginning (meaning no, her head is definitely not clear) or the fact that as channelers  get better they can hold and manipulate the power without going through the process of clearing their minds. They can hold it when they're happy, sad, angry, whatever.<br /><br /><br />The next one is your blurb about one gender not being able to sense or manipulate the other half of the power. How exactly do you explain the fact that Rand can feel when someone is holding saidar or Verin's comment about fish that can fly and birds that can swim. If any hint is more obvious than that to the fact that there *is* a way for someone to channel the opposite half...<br /><br />all in all a good theory though.


created: 2005-03-10 14:59:45
subject: <b>Interesting</b>
body:
Overall , I agree with you. I think it is a great thought.<br /><br />I would like to suggest something to add to the concept...<br /><br />As you say the Power is a river. If we imagine the Wheel of Time standing up facing us (like looking at a wagon wheel from the side) , we can also imagine the Power flowing around this wheel to make it move.<br /><br />The water at the very top is very still but yet it moves. As it goes over the side it gains velocity and reaches maximum speed and turbulence at the bottom before it goes up again and becomes quiet. Perhaps saidin at the bottom - tumultuous and turbulent. Saidar at the top ... a quiet river which you must sink into to control.<br /><br />Does this idea fit in with you?<br /><br />Great theory.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">A One Power researcher<br />Defender of Lanfear<br />Grand Ninja-Nae'blis to be feared <br />Original Warder to Isa <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br />New Warder to Nossie <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />Toy to Seriana <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/winky.gif" border="0" /><br />Mystified by a Fan <br />Bonded Phelix - I was young, it happened so fast.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-03-11 19:12:25
subject: <b>i agree, Aahzmandius</b>
body:
Some people just put way to much thought into these theories<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">The Upper Peninsula...the Two Rivers of this world... <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-03-14 14:32:49
subject: <b>For every action. . .</b>
body:
There is an equal and opposite reaction.<br /><br />How much I don't like they way you think of this.  The One power is not one as in it is the samething.  Saidin and Saidar are equal opposites but not of the same stream.  Using your locig Saidin is made into Saidar by the wheel, well where is the return?  Where does Saidar get turned back to turbulent Saidin?<br /><br />thumbs down, but not in a I think your stupid way, just I think you are thinking of it wrong way.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Deserves got nothing to do with it. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bobbafett.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-03-15 07:36:06
subject: <b>responses</b>
body:
to Min_Cauthon:<br />Thank you for pointing out the case with Rand and the asha'man (we have examples of other asha'man able to the same as Rand) feeling when an woman near them is holding saidar. I forgot adressing this fact in my theory. However this sensing is not like the ability of women to see the channeling ability and the auras of other women. Male channelers can know that an woman is channeling around, but they cannot detect which woman is it and what she does. This male sense is described as a tingle. Tingle is usually a sort of sensing in cases when you are unable to see the sensed thing, as e.g. some actuvity behind your back. Women do not have a similar tingle about male channelers (because the male channelers are not &quot;behind their backs&quot; but &quot;before them&quot;. But when a man is preparing to touch saidin before he did it, an woman can sense him in some way, because she can open herself throught him and link him into a circle - something that no man can do. This ability to link men is the main reason for me to insist, that women &quot;see&quot; men, not the opposite. Here I used the term &quot;to see&quot; as (maybe not the best possible) way to say &quot;able to receive them&quot;.<br /><br />As about the clearing of mind and the actual emotions of the channelers, this is a psychological thing, and as every psychological thing it is more convoluted than simple words can express. Apparently channelers have lots of emotions. The technique of clearing the mind is rather something that beginners do. Later trained Aes Sedai do not need special long work with images of flowers and streams, because they made this process into a routine. But it is said in some places in the books that essentially it is the same mental state, only that AS get it very easy. Maybe it is like when a trained dancer can dance very complicite movements without thinking about the exact steps and even feeling that as very easy and self-evident stuff; but actually the dancer is doing something very complicite and difficult. But this is the case only with trained channelers. Wilders (not only Nynaeve) have another sort of experience with channeling. Some of them know about the channeling, some do not notice it at all, but all of them channel only under very deep emotions, one can say - only under emotions that possess you. Usually an wilder channels only in an extraordinal situation, when she/he is giving up her/his normal behavior and mentality. Driven by this emotions the channeler forgets her fears, her lesser interests and wishes (that feed the fears), her believes and prejudices, and instead of the many small chaotic thoughts and feelings of the normal mind, there is only one passion. So, even if it looks paradoxal, the deep emotion even clears the mind from emotions. Instead of the chaos of the many different feelings and thoughts there is one monolite stream of the mind (attuned to the Source). Some real-world mystical practices use exactly extreme emotions for to gain serenity of mind. It's something like fighting fire with fire. Nynaeve did something like that through her anger - her anger was needed to fight the usual mental attitude, her anger was used by her to break herself. So it is an equivalent of the Void. Theodrin as a novice used another thing - the erotic feelings - a sort of feelings known to cause in the person forgetting of anything else (compare to the mystical techniques of sublimation of sexual energy for getting away from the world). Important consideration is that wilder blocks are broken in situations of extreme frustration when the novice is forced to give up her ego - in all cases it is a shocking situation when the person loses her mental position and orientation, i.e. clears the mind in a deep sense.<br /><br />Actually the Void doesn't require lack of emotions - it requires only pushing these emotions and thoughts away. The channeler know about these emotions and sensations, they &quot;are floating&quot; outside the &quot;inner bubble&quot;, they are there. The only needed is these emotions to be kept in the periphery of the mind. To keep them there a permanent effort is needed. This effort is what feeds the channeling, not the lack of emotions itself. Channeling even needs the permanent generation of emotions to keep push them away - these emotions are like fuel for the channeler, who burns them and this burning is causing the ability to touch the Source. Not the state of emptyness but the process of producing the Void is what causes the punping of Power.<br /><br /><br />to sidious:<br />Yes, it is also a good metaphor. In this case however I would not speak about the points just up and just down of the millwheel, but about the movement up and the movement down. In this case saidin and saidar would be best seen at the right and the left sides of the wheel. I was thinking also about this possible metaphor for the Power and the Wheel, but I preferred the metafhor of the river and the traditional millwheel, because it was explicitely mentioned in the books - Moiraine preferred exactly this metaphor when she explained the relations between the Power and the world. The river metaphor has the advantage before the other metaphors, because it is a metaphor from the books themselves. However other metaphors can only help. Usually one can uderstand an abstract concept only putting together several different metaphors and attuning them into one theory. Different metaphors would explain better different aspects of the Power. Water flowing around the Wheel, electrical circuit, etc., all they make visible some aspects of the Power that the pure river metaphor doesn't show well.<br /><br /><br />to Death Dealer:<br />For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction ... but only in closed systems, i.e. only when all the things that act and react are parts of the same whole. Only the unity of the physical world make this law of action and reaction possible, it is one of the best evidences for the coherence of the world. But more specific about the One Power. Jordan said that saidin and saidar are opposites. But Jordan also said how exactly these opposites are to be thought. Look at this interview quote (most important the end of it):<br />&quot;Err, let's see. You have.. You're using both repulsion and attration of opposites here. Repulsion of things that are opposite and repulsion of things that are the same. The Taint upon the... as versus the conduit, which is made of saidar through which the saidin passes. The saidin and saidar, as men and women, are in many ways opposite. It repels one another. It is safe to make this conduit of saidar between saidin and Shadar Logoth, because there can be no mixing. [So far for wacky ideas that saidar is now tainted] As the eh.. as saidar [even Jordan sometimes has trouble remembering which is which...] passes through, as the taint passes through, the saidar actually repels it, pushes it away from the ..., alright? Now, you have a taint on ... the eh source, the male half of the source, you have the taint on shadar logoth. They're not the same, yet they are. The Taint on Shadar Logoth did not come from the Dark One. The taint was created by humans, who believed that they must do whatever was necessary, anything that was necessary to defeat the Shadow. And because they would accept no limits to what they would do, to what could be done, to what needed to be done, they created their own destruction. Their evil is, or was, as great as that of the Dark One, but diametrically opposite. It is an evil created for the best of intentions, created for good intentions. So it is the opposite. So, this attraction created the conduit begins to pull the Taint from saidar [ouch, again] to cipher it of. Remember, it's always been described it's not at mixed all through saidar [and again] , it is like a thin skin of rancidness, think of a thin skin of rancid oil floating on a pond, and if you get through it, you've got clean water, but you can't get through it without putting your hand in that oil. You're getting it on your hand... To attract one another because they are opposites, but because even being opposite, they have gone far enough around the circle, they act to destroy one another. You see, it's not opposites along a straight line. We're actually talking opposites along a circle. Continuing the motif of the Wheel of Time, if you will. So you've got two things that are both opposites and the same. [He's been waving his hands in the air for this. Hands far apart for the straight line versus hands together, making a circle and coming together again] That will both attract one another and negate one another.&quot;<br /><br />This is exactly about the way saidin and saidar are opposites: &quot;We're actually talking opposites along a circle&quot;. Doesn't this match my interpretation, not yours?<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />As about the return from saidar to saidin, doesn't the river metaphor explain it sufficently? We can see a river flowing from the springs to the sea and we see nothing returning from the sea to the springs. Only the visible flow can turn the wheels of whatermills. But we know that actually there is a return of the water from the see to the mountains. We just do not see it. It is dispersed in the clouds and rains. It is not concentrated like the river. Only concentrated flow can do work. So only one of the directions of the flow can do work. The same is with the electric circuit - actually it flows in the both directions, but only one of the directions - from the generator to the consumer - is visible and usable...<br /><br /><br />to Halfdeadchicken:<br />The Taint is not moved by the flow of the Power. It is described as &quot;floating&quot; on the surface of saidin, and this can make you think it would flow together with saidin, but actually it doesn't. The Taint is not mixed with saidin it is only staying on the surface. It is like a shore of the river, not like a floatsam. It can poison only those who come from outside to saidar, not the Power inside the Source. Imagine it as a substance dirty only from the one side, and solid from the other. Or humans can get dirty by touching it, but the Power itself cannot. Or imagine some sort of magnetic force holding the film only on the one side of the stream. Whatever we can think about it, the Taint is not moved by the flow of Power, so it cannot spoil saidar.


created: 2005-03-19 11:13:58
subject: <b>like</b>
body:
I think I like it, and to whoever said about poisoning the river, well saidin isnt a &quot;poison&quot; it isnt dillued with teh water. Its more of an oil slick above the water. Now if we can use our iagination and think of tunnel or something that the flow flows in to. Inside is the actual wheel, and out the other side is saidar, the oil would not flow through since its only on the top, assuming that a potion near the bottom flows into it. Some people may not liek this but it might require some imagination to think of. Anyways this also coordinates with some other fats abotu channeling. Since there is more turbulence on the male side of the whole thing this would explain why men are stronger, and women weaker in the power. Yet women are more dexterous in the weaving, and it is easier to turn the path of a small stream that a raging rapid.<br /><br /><br />Also Taking into account how women can &quot;see&quot; men like one commenter said and add them to links. Maybe it starts out calm and the wheel churns it up making it more rapid  and the taint being on that said would never flow back upriver fo those who dont like the other analogy. ALso this means the taint could have an actual value, not limitless like the river itself. Which would be feasable since men i the AoL went insane VERY fast and men take longer now. SO the taint is being exhausted and any who read the latest book know that Rand channels the power throuhg a funnel to clense saidin. So rive keeps flowing through until the taint all comes with it.  <br /><br />So I think this theory is well thought out.


created: 2005-03-16 01:10:49
subject: <b>The worlds of if...</b>
body:
Are something I've been musing over a lot lately.  The light diffraction analogy is very close to what I was thinking they were like. Good Job!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">The Mofo J.A.R.<br />Head of Public Relations, Al Bum's Records<br />Lead Guitarist, Inspected by 40<br />Singer, Songwriter, multi-instrumentalist<br />Viking <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /><br />WoT addict<br />http://www.inspectedby40.com<br />First post on TP blackboard 4 times.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-03-16 06:12:38
subject: <b>A point of contention</b>
body:
&quot;That's because the events in the Rand's world have effect on the mirror worlds but not vice versa&quot;<br /><br />I believe to be in error. In TDR, Verin tells us that &quot;If [the DO] is freed from the prison the Creator made in one world, he is freed on all. So long as he is kept prisoner in one, he remains imprisoned on all...&quot;<br /><br />So we see that the mirror worlds do have an effect on Rand's world (i.e. the real world).<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Bob L. Sedai (a.k.a. Luge) <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /><br />Fighting off the Taint - <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tinfoilhat.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" />Thanks given to Burr, the ever-helpful theory critic<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />And to Light in the Night, fellow theorist extraordinaire<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Voted Best Screenname 1 (one) years in a row.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-03-16 10:19:12
subject: <b>I think Verin's paradox is more...</b>
body:
a comment on the nature of the Dark One, rather than the interaction of the worlds.  After all, if he breaks out, he has almost unlimited power, so he can alter the nature of reality. The leakage from his prison is causing that now, with the bubbles of evil that make physically impossible events happen.  And these were happening with four intact seals, in tSR.  Imagine if there was nothing holding him back, and he came all the way out of the Bore, which I don't believe he ever did in the AoL.  He intends to break the wheel of time and kill the great serpent, but as i understand it, there is no actual wheel or snake, so that has to be a metaphor for changing the very nature of the universe.<br /><br />Fascinating theory by the way, though I didn't understand some things and had to take the author's word for it.  I doubt this is what Jordan has in mind,but it is a good revisionist explanation for how it works.  Obviously they have no television in Bulgaria.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


created: 2005-03-16 12:54:49
subject: <b>Hate making silly headlines to my posts... Grrrr</b>
body:
If you hate academic theories why do you read them?? Well, anyway, I think you have made a good job <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />. I dont know if this is all what RJ has had in his mind, but it seems to fit pretty well... No one can ever be a hundred percent right when it comes to these academic theories and the nature of The Wheel, right? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perplexed.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smackhead.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /> LLT <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-03-16 13:37:51
subject: <b>Just an idea that came to mind</b>
body:
I was thinking about ishy saying that the dragon has fought for the shadow at  one point . Could it be that this occured in one of the mirror worlds???


created: 2005-03-16 15:58:33
subject: <b>Summary</b>
body:
The Pattern detects when a mirror world is badly messed up, and when that happens it knows to introduce something to fix things in the real world to prevent the mirror world from happening.<br /><br />Why is the theory so long when it can be stated so concisely? And all that with waves and diffraction is totally unnecessary.


created: 2005-03-16 17:08:23
subject: <b>Cause he had to show his process</b>
body:
I personally appreciated the analogies very much.  If he had told us the results without showing us how he got those results it would seem less compelling.  As for Verin's statement it does not really contradict this theory its just a little backward. In order for the DO to be free in all worlds it would require all the worlds to rely on a single input and if there is only one real input then her statement merely needs to be flipped into when the DO is free in our world then he is automatically freed in all worlds.  The forsaken know about the MW and yet they haven't traveled to a deserted MW and broke the DO out there with a lot less opposition.  This theroy explains why that idea isn't explored.  Verin does not necessarily have all the information at the end of the day.  If Selene had made the statement it would be more compelling.  But anyway excellent theory DBF.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where did these Skimmers come from?  I mean if they didn't want to read the book they could have just Traveled to another author.  Why risk arriving at the wrong destination?  Why risk falling into darkness?</font><p></p>


created: 2005-03-18 02:19:20
subject: <b>Agree</b>
body:
I think this is a valid argument, and an interesting one, although I don't really think that RJ had this theory in mind when he was creating the Wheel of Time.


created: 2005-03-19 10:31:28
subject: <b>A</b>
body:
Well RJ said somewhere that there is one DO, plus the DO exists outside the pattern. So if he is free he can reap the entire pattern, real world or mirror worlds. So Verins statement strengthens this theory I believe. She might not know if there is only one DO or is there is one per world. But if he is free, since there is only one(and hes outside the pattern) then he is free in all the worlds, or should I say on all the worlds.


created: 2005-04-04 23:36:17
subject: <b>...</b>
body:
I liked this theory.  Quite cool.  <br />Well...if the veil of parting is being lifted, and the mirror worlds seem to be merging with the real one (note all the walking dead)... who's to say that when the Last Battle comes that the mirror worlds will even exist.  Then if the DO broke free, there would be no other worlds to wrry about him being imprisoned in. (I wish I could remember whos theories I got those ideas from so I could give them proper credit for the ideas..)<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /> Survivor of Historical Inquizition ... barely <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Who can say if I've been changed for the better, but because I knew you I have been changed for good -- Wicked<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-03-18 20:42:22
subject: <b>A VERY nice hypothesis</b>
body:
Great post.  I buy this idea completely--it explains why the Longing only affected the Ogier after <i>saidin</i> was tainted, as well as why the Ways are degenerating.<br /><br />This idea may be confirmed in the next book, now that the Ogier have had some time to adjust to the taint-free world.  The Elders would of course not notice, but I imagine Loial (who is long overdue to make an appearance) may notice that the Longing is now absent.<br /><br />Very nice.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Who we were is lost to all men, and life is bitter.&quot;<br />&quot;Expect nothing, and you will not be surprised.&quot;  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-03-18 21:37:56
subject: <b>What about the Gardeners?</b>
body:
Do Seanchan Ogier suffer from the Longing? I don't remember for sure, but I think not. So either they're somehow different from Westlands Ogier (not affected by the taint for whatever reason), or that's not the cause of the Longing. I think...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">The Owl of Minerva flies only at dusk, but the Penguin of Idiotochus waddles all day long.<br />I never fight fire with fire; that's what they expect. No, I fight fire with dead leaves.<br /><br />Zeroinbarnotation, RMCM</font><p></p>


created: 2005-03-18 22:37:38
subject: <b>RJ has said, IIRC, that the ogier feel the longing because...</b>
body:
they were outside the stedding too long. That's why the Seanchan ogier do not feel it as strongly or at all. There were more stedding in Seanchan, and fewer mad channelers to destroy the place.<br /><br />That kind of negates your theory. It's a nice idea though.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Warder to Be'lal's Girl<br />Wotmania Lottery<br /><br /><br /><br />&quot;Meh. A good relationship is like fireworks: loud, explosive, and liable to maim you if you hold on too long.&quot; ~ Sven, Questionable Content<br /><br />Bonded by Sidious. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-03-19 06:11:07
subject: <b>Actually, RJ's comment can reinforce the theory</b>
body:
The Theory merely states why the Ogier feel the Longing - they are outside the stedding too long, and their exposure to the taint creates the Longing in them.  The Ogier in Seanchan never had the Longing, because, according to RJ, they weren't outside the stedding for too long.  This doesn't contradict the theory, and merely is more evidence that the characters are correct in assuming the Longing came from being outside too long.  Unless RJ says WHY the Longing happened to Ogier who were outside, this theory can stand.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


created: 2005-03-19 10:01:40
subject: <b>i like it alot</b>
body:
this does a nice job of why ogier now feel the Longing, but didnt used to.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">-Sabin<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-03-19 11:18:41
subject: <b>Excellent , but unfortunately I disagree</b>
body:
I am afraid I disagree with some assessments in your theory.<br /><br />The Ogier , I believe , are dependent on a feeling of peace and well-being. If they are surrounded by evil or malice , they eventually become affected and must return to the Stedding which is always filled with a sense of peace and happiness. This is the one outstanding characteristic of a Stedding even though people tend to focus on the lack of the Power there.<br /><br />If you look at Loial&#8217;s words in TGH (Stedding Tsofu) &#8230; &#8220;It is said that before the Breaking of the World , we could go where we wished , like you humans , but that changed with the Breaking. Ogier were scattered like every other people , and they could not find any stedding again. Everything was moved , everything changed. Mountains , rivers , even the seas &#8230;. It was during the Exile , while we wondered lost , that the Longing first came to us. The desire to know the stedding once more , to know our homes again &#8230; when we finally did find the stedding again &#8230; it seemed we had defeated the Longing at last , but it had changed us , put seeds into us. Now , if an Ogier is Outside too long , the Longing comes again , he begins to weaken , and he dies if he does not return.&#8221;<br /><br />Loial does not mention the taint on saidin as being a relevant factor but rather the destruction of the world. There is one reason , I believe , why Ogier could go everywhere in the Age of Legends &#8230; Chora trees. These allowed the Ogier to feel a sense of peace and happiness wherever they went. These trees were intact until the Breaking of the World began and were said to line most streets. If we look at Rand&#8217;s vision of the AOL and his glimpse into Paaren Disen &#8230;<br /><br />Before the Breaking and the War of Power &#8230; TSR (The Dedicated) &#8220;&#8230;beneath the spreading Chora trees , their trefoil leaves spreading peace and contentment in the shadows of silvery buildings which touched the sky. A city with out choras would seem bleak as wilderness.&#8221;<br /><br />Look at how similar their effect is to the stedding and the leading comparison which their absence would cause. Then during the Breaking &#8230;<br /><br />TSR (The Dedicated) &#8230; &#8220;Jonai hurried down the empty streets , trying not to look at the shattered buildings and dead chora trees. All dead.&#8221;<br /><br />The men started destroying the trees. Later we see the Ogier approach an Aiel caravan (still during the Breaking) &#8230;<br /><br />TSR (The Dedicated) &#8230; &#8220;You have Chora cuttings,&#8221; one of the Ogier said&#8230; &#8220;Do you know where any of the stedding are?&#8221; Jonai stared at her. &#8220;No. No , I do not. But surely you can find the stedding.&#8221; &#8220;We have run so far , so long &#8230; the land has changed so much.&#8221; &#8220;I think we must find a stedding soon or die.&#8221;<br /><br />The first the thing the Ogier notices are the chora cuttings which Jonai earlier says are common on every wagon. Later the Ogier mention the destruction of the landscape and how they cannot find the stedding.&#8221;<br /><br />So I believe that the Ogier are dependent on an atmosphere of peace and happiness to sustain their bodies. This was possible in the AOL with all the Chora cuttings and with the stedding. The two in combination covered most of the world. When the men went mad they destroyed every tree and even displaced the stedding. This introduced areas of despair which were unknown to the Ogier. Since then , the stedding are the only source of this feeling of happiness and peace &#8230; and any prolonged exposure to the &#8220;unhappy and evil&#8221; outside world leads to a breakdown in their bodies.<br /><br />I don&#8217;t believe the taint on saidin is relevant.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">A One Power researcher<br />Defender of Lanfear<br />Grand Ninja-Nae'blis to be feared <br />Original Warder to Isa <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br />New Warder to Nossie <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />Toy to Seriana <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/winky.gif" border="0" /><br />Mystified by a Fan <br />Bonded Phelix - I was young, it happened so fast.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-03-19 20:37:19
subject: <b>Chora trees</b>
body:
*I have heard the explanation of Chora trees for the longing several times, and while there is ONE tangential connection within the story line from Ogier to Chora trees, I do not feel that that is sufficient. <br />*Stedding, and Chora trees DO NOT do the same thing. <br />*Loial's description of the origin of the Longing is, at best a subjective, uneducated, narrative describing the events, not the cause. <br />*He says WHAT happened, not WHY it happened. He does not explain or color his words in any way to determine the WHY. In fact, his description of weakening and eventually dying while outside favors some factor, WHICH IS ONLY PRESENT OUTSIDE THE STEDDING, wearing and slowly killing an Ogier. Considering Saidin and Saidar are the only thing that is different outside, and Tainted Saidin the only thing different from after the breaking, my thought are as earlier stated.<br />*Do Stedding imitate Chora trees? What do Chora trees even do really? They exude peace and well being, but how? How did Ogier live before Chora trees were invented? Ogier are indigenous to the Wheel of Time, before the breaking and beyond, it would not be possible for them to have existed before the INVENTION of the Chora tree if they are so dependant upon them.<br />*I agree that Ogier are sensitive to the mood of places, but I see this as, instead of being some kind of inexplicable mysticism, another latent manifestation of their sensitivity to the One Power. Which would lend credence to the idea that they are affected by Shadow tainted Saidin, and that since they can sense mood in all places, that they are linked to the One Power which, if it drives creation and the Wheel, and life itself, is present in all places.<br />*I'm sorry, Chora trees don't cut it, and if they WERE the source of the Longing, and the Ogier knew or even THOUGHT they were linked, then they probably would have wanted some of the cuttings that the Dedicated were hauling around, maybe? don'cha think? hmmmmmmm?  or do they only do the peace thing when fully grown, and in proper lighting, and ummmm, at some other time that is purely speculative?<br />*Here's the thing, my theory takes existing knowns and wraps them into a cohesive concept of reasonability. Everything has an explanation, but it's only reasonable to use things that EXIST to explain anything. We don't know why, or how, Chora trees function, if they themselves use the One Power, or have any connection to Ogier at all, beyond the ONE reference to an Ogier and a Chora tree even being in the same chapter. The One Power affects everything, it is KNOWN to be shielded by a Stedding, and it is the only other thing, save for these MYSTICAL TREES that are being dwelt upon, that is different from the AoL. So, is it a tree? or is it a running theme of decay and Shadow upon the One Power that runs throughout the ENTIRE SERIES? Which is reasonable?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I told you to make weapons, Taim. Show me just how deadly they are. Disperse the Shaido. Break them.<br />     -Rand al'Thor, to Mazrim Taim<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-03-20 01:46:18
subject: <b>I like this theory,</b>
body:
it explains much if true. It will be interesting to see if RJ gives any further info in the final books. The ogier have always fascinated me as they are so far outside of the Human experience and have not been satisfactorily explained. Ogier rock!


created: 2005-03-20 04:52:46
subject: <b>Calm it down a notch Speardancer...</b>
body:
<b>*I have heard the explanation of Chora trees for the longing several times, and while there is ONE tangential connection within the story line from Ogier to Chora trees, I do not feel that that is sufficient. </b><br /><br />There is one tangenital connection between the Chora trees and the ogier, but that's more than there are for a connection between the ogier and the One Power.<br /><br /><b>*Stedding, and Chora trees DO NOT do the same thing. </b><br /><br />We don't know that. For all we know, they do exactly the same thing, just Chora trees were designed to imitate the Stedding.<br /><br /><b>*Loial's description of the origin of the Longing is, at best a subjective, uneducated, narrative describing the events, not the cause. </b><br /><br />I wouldn't call Loial &quot;uneducated&quot;, but wouldn't you think the ogier would know if they had some kind of connection to the One Power, and that they'd teach their people about it, especially those who tap it, as you say? <br /><br /><b>*He says WHAT happened, not WHY it happened. He does not explain or color his words in any way to determine the WHY. In fact, his description of weakening and eventually dying while outside favors some factor, WHICH IS ONLY PRESENT OUTSIDE THE STEDDING, wearing and slowly killing an Ogier. Considering Saidin and Saidar are the only thing that is different outside, and Tainted Saidin the only thing different from after the breaking, my thought are as earlier stated.</b><br /><br />Perhaps the ogier need something that is only found <i>inside</i> the Stedding, as Sidious proposes. If they need something that is inside, but can't get inside, that would produce the same affect as what we see, and what you are acrediting to something being present outside.<br /><br /><b>*Do Stedding imitate Chora trees? What do Chora trees even do really? They exude peace and well being, but how? How did Ogier live before Chora trees were invented? Ogier are indigenous to the Wheel of Time, before the breaking and beyond, it would not be possible for them to have existed before the INVENTION of the Chora tree if they are so dependant upon them.</b><br /><br />Ogier aren't dependant on the trees, they're dependant on the Stedding, the trees imitate that. Presumably at some point, the ogier lived exclusively in Stedding, but then when Men and Ogier found a way to imitate the Stedding affect, they did so by creating the Choras.<br /><br />Also your point about them being indigenous means nothing. Everything is indigenous to the Wheel of Time. However, Ogier may or may not be indigenous to the world Rand lives in. Perhaps they came about in some messed up experiment with the Power, or they are Yettis evolved, or are aliens. We don't know where they are from, when they came, or how they came to be in Randland.<br /><br /><b>*I agree that Ogier are sensitive to the mood of places, but I see this as, instead of being some kind of inexplicable mysticism, another latent manifestation of their sensitivity to the One Power. Which would lend credence to the idea that they are affected by Shadow tainted Saidin, and that since they can sense mood in all places, that they are linked to the One Power which, if it drives creation and the Wheel, and life itself, is present in all places.</b><br /><br />This is an interesting way to interpret that... but OK.<br /><br /><b>*I'm sorry, Chora trees don't cut it, and if they WERE the source of the Longing, and the Ogier knew or even THOUGHT they were linked, then they probably would have wanted some of the cuttings that the Dedicated were hauling around, maybe? don'cha think? hmmmmmmm? or do they only do the peace thing when fully grown, and in proper lighting, and ummmm, at some other time that is purely speculative?</b><br /><br />The Longing didn't come about because the Choras were gone. It happened because the Ogier couldn't find their homes. The Stedding are different than the world around them, and the ogier need that to survive. However, the Chora reproduce some of the affects, allowing ogier to travel more freely.<br /><br />You also might want to avoid asking people if they're being &quot;purely speculative&quot; especially when posting a theory that has very little textual support. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><b>*Here's the thing, my theory takes existing knowns and wraps them into a cohesive concept of reasonability. Everything has an explanation, but it's only reasonable to use things that EXIST to explain anything. We don't know why, or how, Chora trees function, if they themselves use the One Power, or have any connection to Ogier at all, beyond the ONE reference to an Ogier and a Chora tree even being in the same chapter. The One Power affects everything, it is KNOWN to be shielded by a Stedding, and it is the only other thing, save for these MYSTICAL TREES that are being dwelt upon, that is different from the AoL. So, is it a tree? or is it a running theme of decay and Shadow upon the One Power that runs throughout the ENTIRE SERIES? Which is reasonable?</b><br /><br />Again, you miss the point. The idea is not that the lack of the Chora caused the Longing. They were merely a bridge between Stedding.<br /><br />There is another key difference between the AoL and the time After the Breaking. The Stedding were lost. The ogier wandered for many years hunting them down. <br /><br />Your theory is interesting, but I disagree with it. Also, the way you responded to the post was rather unimpressive. *shrug* sorry.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Warder to Be'lal's Girl<br />Wotmania Lottery<br /><br /><br /><br />&quot;Meh. A good relationship is like fireworks: loud, explosive, and liable to maim you if you hold on too long.&quot; ~ Sven, Questionable Content<br /><br />Bonded by Sidious. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-03-20 08:49:54
subject: <b>i agree with sidious and phelix</b>
body:
and i just do and i ain't gonna done darn it explain myself neither<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">idealism not pragmatism</font><p></p>


created: 2005-03-20 16:29:08
subject: <b>Effects of stedding</b>
body:
I disagree with this theory and that the only effect of <i>stedding</i> is the cutting off of the Source. <i>Stedding</i> also keep out Shadowspawn, right? Also consider what Sarene says of the Far Madding Guardian: &quot;These <i>ter'angreal</i>, they duplicate a <i>stedding</i>. In the important ways at least, I fear, though I suppose an Ogier would not think so.&quot; (WH, chapter 23) This shows that <i>stedding</i> indeed have other effects, and moreover that it is some of those effects that are important to Ogier, not the removal of access to <i>saidin</i> and <i>saidar</i>. I think this quotation disproves the theory.<br /><br />It is technically possible for the Ogier to depend both on the loss of the Power and another effect, but this contradicts the theory, which blames it solely on the Taint and precludes anything else. Indeed if there is any other effect, the already weak chain of reasoning is broken.


created: 2005-03-21 15:52:32
subject: <b>An other possiblity</b>
body:
before the breaking an Ogier could spend as much time away form the steddings as they wanted. After the breaking, RJ said that the Seanchan Ogier were able to find the steddings more quickly, thus they do not suffer from the longing like they do in Rand land. So the question is, what was the difference between individual Ogier spending years away from the stedding and the Exsile.<br /><br />My theory is that the Ogier born outside the stedding after the breaking is the source of the longing. And once an Ogier is born outside a stedding, they will have the longing and all of there decendants. The only problem I  haven't been able to answer is, How long was the Exile and how long do Ogier live? Since the Ogier say it was a long time, it  must have been a VERY long time by human standars. A couple hundred years maybe?


created: 2005-03-21 18:07:24
subject: <b>Your personal opinions</b>
body:
are the only things that would incline any of you to support one theory or the other seeing as neither one of them has any real evidence.  As many of you have said there is no way to tell if the Longing is caused by a lack of something outside of the Steading or the addition of something outside of the Steading.  However as there is no evidence to fully support this theory there is no evidence to refute it either.<br />However the amount of evidence there is inclines me to nod towards this theory for several reasons.<br /><br />1. The One Power does drive everything in the WOT and it is perfectly reasonable to say that all special abilities are connected to it.  Especially special abilities that have a physical effect like Treesinging.  Ogier do not channel the True Source the way that humans do and so if the mechanism is hidden to Ogier and the mechanism is hidden to Humans then how would they prove that the ability is unrelated to the True Source.<br /><br />An interesting notion has just occured to me.  Why are the One Power and the True Source two different terms?  Perhaps the One Power refers to the aspect or &quot;frequency&quot; of the True Source that humans aka Aes Sedai channel.  If Ogier and people like Min, Hurin and Perrin use different frequencies of the True Source it would again not be unreasonable to believe that Aes Sedai even in the AOL would be unable to detect it.  After all as humans we can percieve only a limited amount of the EM spectrum and it took quite a while to discover those &quot;undetectable&quot; wavelengths.<br /><br />2. If you have any inclination to believe in the different wavelengths of the True Source then we already have evidence that wolves, whom we can assume are like Perrin in some way, can sense AS even though they don't weild the One Power.  This information would allow that even if you don't use a particular frequency you may be able to sense or be affected by it.  So one could say that Ogier don't have to channel the One Powwer in order to be affected by the Taint.  Think sunburn due to UV rays.  Cancer even.<br /><br />3. There is no way to verify that Chora trees were present in the AOL concurently with the presence of Ogier.  Due to the long memories and hoarding of history that Ogier possess I would imagine that they would in fact know if Chora trees were responsible for their ability to live outside the Steading in the AOL.  Since they don't mention chora trees in their history of the Longing I think again that is perfectly reasonable to say that chora had nothing to do with the Ogier pre-breaking ability to wander outside of the Steading.<br /><br />4. If lack of peace is responsible for the Longing wouldn't the war prior to the breaking trigger the Longing.  Because, chora trees or no, there must have been large quantities of negative feelings and emotions permeating the last years of the AOL.  Considering also that Ogier are capable of experiencing great anger and are capable of and, in Seanchan, make an occupation out of causing pain the notion that the psychic effects of the worlds strife would trigger the Longing seems unlikely.<br /><br />All and all like I said I don't think there is any hard evidence either way.  No one knows why Ogier experience the Longing.  Thats what theories are for.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where did these Skimmers come from?  I mean if they didn't want to read the book they could have just Traveled to another author.  Why risk arriving at the wrong destination?  Why risk falling into darkness?</font><p></p>


created: 2005-03-23 00:06:31
subject: <b>too many assumptions</b>
body:
A few points - where does it say that the Power &quot;pervades the pattern and all life&quot;? My understanding was that the true source turned the wheel, and the wheel wove the pattern of the age. Doesn't mean that the pattern is linked to the source - a tapestry is not affected by the foot turning the loom's spindle? <br />If the true source was all pervading through the pattern, then the sudden tainting of Saidin by the Dark One would have had a dramatic effect on reality. The reappearance of violence and war happened after the Dark One was released but BEFORE Saidin was tainted so that was not a related effect. We should have seen an effect similar to that on the Way's - only on all of the world. Instead only men who directly touched Saidin were affected, and it has been said that those who remained within the Stedding did not go mad (though the absence of Saidin eventually drew them out). Saidin IS all around (can be channelled pretty much anywhere excluding stedding and Terangreal areas) but unless actively grasped, remians passive...note the all pervading beleif among channelers that if a man could just avoid holding Saidin they WOULD NOT GO MAD. <br /> <br />It's a huge assumption that all &quot;magical&quot; effects are caused by the power. It's said any number of times that there are effects NOT related to the power - Perrin's wolfiness, Min's viewings, Loial's Tree singing, Hurin's Sniffing, Mat's Luck, Aiel Dreamwalking...<br />Both Min and Hurin have been exhaustively examined by Aes Sedai who conclude that their abilities were NOT power related.<br />Also, Elyas used to be a Warder so his Aes Sedai might have some familiarity with the wolf thing...<br />And I seem to recall there was a mention of the Wolf Thing being a remnant from a time before the AoL ...(probably siad by Verin?) We know that the AoL was begun by the discovery of channeling, so it would be from an age when people didn't channel...<br />What about Myrdaal Shadow walking? Shadar Logoth? The Dark One's True Power? <br />In the AoL, Aiel singers aided the Ogier and the Nem in their singing, but were not channelers.<br />What about the Ghost's cropping up in ACOS?<br /><br />If the Longing is caused by the taint, then why isn't Far Madding filled with Ogier like a stedding? <br />If Chora Tree's duplicate the Steddings affect, why weren't Ogier flocking to Cairhien when Avendoralda was present - with all the work going on with the Topless Towers, surely ONE ogier would have noticed the affect of Avendoralda?<br />The obvious conclusion is that the Ogier longing is caused by the prolonged absence from the Stedding during the Breaking (Seanchan Ogier emphasise this). It is the Stedding, not the absence of the Source, not the feeling of peace &amp; harmony.<br />If Treesingers use the one power and the longing is caused by tainted Saidin, then only treesingers would be affected, in fact only MALE treesingers should be affected!<br />Loial says that the talent is fading from the Ogier Gene Pool, and none have it as strongly as he does... but the longing is as strong as ever!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Some say it's better to live one day as a lion than a whole lifetime as a worm...but whoever heard of a wormskin rug? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perplexed.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-03-23 14:12:34
subject: <b>Not as many as you think and logical none the less</b>
body:
<font size="-1"><b>A few points - where does it say that the Power &quot;pervades the pattern and all life&quot;? My understanding was that the true source turned the wheel, and the wheel wove the pattern of the age. Doesn't mean that the pattern is linked to the source - a tapestry is not affected by the foot turning the loom's spindle?</b></font><br /><br />The fact that the One Power changes things in the Pattern says otherwise.  Traveling in particular is discribed as either boring a hole through the Pattern or making Pattern similar.<br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>If the true source was all pervading through the pattern, then the sudden tainting of Saidin by the Dark One would have had a dramatic effect on reality. The reappearance of violence and war happened after the Dark One was released but BEFORE Saidin was tainted so that was not a related effect. We should have seen an effect similar to that on the Way's - only on all of the world. Instead only men who directly touched Saidin were affected, and it has been said that those who remained within the Stedding did not go mad (though the absence of Saidin eventually drew them out). Saidin IS all around (can be channelled pretty much anywhere excluding stedding and Terangreal areas) but unless actively grasped, remians passive...note the all pervading beleif among channelers that if a man could just avoid holding Saidin they WOULD NOT GO MAD.</b></font><br /><br />In my comments at least, I made a distinction between the One Power and the True Source.  I described the One Power as a frequency of the True Source.  As a frequency used by humans that &quot;might&quot; affect other aspects of the pattern but not necessarily.  For example Ogier who in this theory are postulated to have a sensitivity to the One Power even though they can't use or percieve that frequency are damaged by it.  Just like humans can't use or percieve UV light.<br />As for the Taint having no effect on men who can channel but don't, find one who can control themselves enough not to and that assumption can be proven fact.  Until then it is just an assumption.<br /><br /><font size="-1"><b> It's a huge assumption that all &quot;magical&quot; effects are caused by the power. It's said any number of times that there are effects NOT related to the power - Perrin's wolfiness, Min's viewings, Loial's Tree singing, Hurin's Sniffing, Mat's Luck, Aiel Dreamwalking...<br />Both Min and Hurin have been exhaustively examined by Aes Sedai who conclude that their abilities were NOT power related.<br />Also, Elyas used to be a Warder so his Aes Sedai might have some familiarity with the wolf thing...<br />And I seem to recall there was a mention of the Wolf Thing being a remnant from a time before the AoL ...(probably siad by Verin?) We know that the AoL was begun by the discovery of channeling, so it would be from an age when people didn't channel...<br />What about Myrdaal Shadow walking? Shadar Logoth? The Dark One's True Power? <br />In the AoL, Aiel singers aided the Ogier and the Nem in their singing, but were not channelers.<br />What about the Ghost's cropping up in ACOS </b></font><br /><br />I addressed this issue as well.  If people who can percieve and use the One Power examine someone and cannot percieve the person channeling then of course they are going to conclude that they can't channel and that their ability is not related to the One Power.  This does not negate the possibility that they are connected to the True Source.  It IS an assumption, due to lack of evidence, that the One Power IS the only aspect of the True Source.<br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>If the Longing is caused by the taint, then why isn't Far Madding filled with Ogier like a stedding?</b></font><br /><br />The question here is when was the Far Madding ter'angreal created?  I am under the impression that it was created long after the steadings were rediscovered.  If it was then why would any Ogier choose a fake steading over a real one.  As has been said there are other effects of a Steading.  Only an Ogier suffering from the Longing in Far Madding could prove that the Taint had nothing to do with it.  And now that the Taint is gone of course any Ogier suffering from the Longing anywhere would do.  Of course we don't have that much time in the books for this to occur.<br /><br /><font size="-1"><b> The obvious conclusion is that the Ogier longing is caused by the prolonged absence from the Stedding during the Breaking (Seanchan Ogier emphasise this).</b></font><br /><br />The Seanchan Ogier are not proof.  If they were able to avoid long abscence from steading during the Breaking I don't think working for the Seanchan empire would ever put them in a position to endure an abcense longer than that they might have experienced during the Breaking.  All you'd have to say to fit them into this theory is that the Seanchan Ogier have never been out of their Steadings long enough to experience the Longing which takes at least five years IIRC to affect them.  Until we hear of an Ogier who never left the Empresses side for more than that minimum time period we have no more evidence than before.<br />Another reason not to believe that the Steading in and of itself is responsible is that according to the information we have about the Age of Legends Ogier really did stay outside of the Steading for long periods of time.  If by chance the original Ogier died of the Longing because the time period really was too long there is no reason for that effect to transfer to their children.  To believe so is to believe that two lizard who got their legs chopped off parented the first snake.  It is impossible to transfer non genetic changes to your children.  To my knowledge even viruses and bacteria can't typically change your sex cells.  And unless there is some healing factor related to the Steading a Longing caused by microbes would continue even inside.<br /><br />So these are the things we know.<br />The Longing did not exist as far as we know in the AOL.<br />The time period that the Longing took hold must be shorter than the average time out of steading in the AOL or else it would not have been so surprising.<br />The Longing is a physical response to an outside stimuli either the lack of something or the addition of something.<br />The Effects of outside stimuli do not get passed down to your children.<br />If Ogier were able to stay outside of the Steading for a longer(assume indefinite) period of time during the AOL then the lack of Steading is unlikely to be the outside stimuli that causes the Longing.  Add in the fact that the Longing persists even though all circumstances surrounding the Breaking have ended except the Taint.  Add in the fact that the notion of passing the Longing on to their children if it were somehow caused by a microbe goes against natural laws.  All these things make it clear that it is the addition of something outside of the Steading that causes the Longing and the only thing that has changed outside of the Steading is Saidin.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where did these Skimmers come from?  I mean if they didn't want to read the book they could have just Traveled to another author.  Why risk arriving at the wrong destination?  Why risk falling into darkness?</font><p></p>


created: 2005-03-30 01:45:45
subject: <b>Seanchan Ogier</b>
body:
We know the seanchan Ogier experience nothing like the longing. The longing is not caused by some weird one power thing, rather RJ tells us in the books it was caused in the long period after the breaking when the ogier here could not find the stedding. Since the breaking didnt touch Seanchan in the same way, they still had stedding to stay in and no longing.


created: 2005-03-30 10:59:39
subject: <b>so many comments</b>
body:
I can see the 2 connections mentioned. The taint and Chora trees and I give props to both as good theorys and I can agree with both on many levels. I think the chora trees had alot to do with helping the Ogre to feel peace outside the stedding in AOL. But we also have to realize that in the AOL there was pretty much peace on earth before the drilling of the bore. I believe this in itself had more to do with it than anything. After the drilling of the bore chaos and the foresaken started war. The taint was the icing on the cake. The men broke the world and destroyed peace. <br /><br />There are so many possibilitys....<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Egwene Fan  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/egwene.gif" border="0" /><br />Elaida will fall!!! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /> <br />Egwene is meant to rule the White Tower and even Rand will know her fury!! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-31 14:11:15
subject: <b>Ogier who didn't lose the Steading</b>
body:
In TEotW Chapter 43 while explaining the origin of the Ways, Loial says &quot;During the time of madness...We Ogier were scattered too, driven from the Stedding into the Exile and the Long Wandering when the Longing was graven on our hearts...It is of the others I must speak now, those few Ogier who held in their Stedding while around them the world was tearing apart...&quot;<br /><br />The &quot;others&quot; would be similar to the Seanchan Ogier because they wouldn't have spent a very long time away from the Stedding.  So does this mean all Ogier will experience the Longing if they spend too much time away from the Stedding?  I think so since we know all the Ogier (besides the Seanchan Ogier, and that is only because we haven't heard of any specifically) experience the Longing.  Chances are there are Ogier who descended from the &quot;others&quot; who experience the Longing. The Longing must be caused by a change in the outside world since the AoL because during that time Ogier did not experience the Longing. This change may or may not be a result of the Taint but it seems to be a likely cause.


created: 2006-07-18 03:47:04
subject: <b>What about during the breaking?</b>
body:
During the Breaking, the Ogier wandered about, looking for Stedding for a long time, maybe for hundreds of years. It was at that time the Longing started. If an Ogier today only needs five years outside a Stedding to die of the Longing, why didn't all the Ogier die during the hundreds of years of searching? Either the Taint became stronger, MUCH stronger over the last 3000 years, or the effect is cumulative over generations. Male channelers do not go mad more quickly now than then, so the first possibility is out. Also, if Loial can go back to a Stedding for a week or so and feel like new, the Stedding must have a huge regenerative effect on tainted Ogier (if you believe the theory). That means it can't be cumulative. So why could the Ogier exist outside the Steddings for a hundred years back then, and only 5 now?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Madness waits for some. It creeps up on others.&quot;<br />I was born with it...</font><p></p>


created: 2006-09-09 09:50:53
subject: <b>A thought...</b>
body:
Uhhh... I always figured that the Longing did not exist in the AoL simply because all stedding were acounted for and that transportation was very fast. In other words, an Ogier probably never spent all that long outside of a stedding in all reality. Remember, in a fictional context that the third age is our future and past. Its estimated that for a fictional context that we are in the first age so it would make sense that the super advanced AoL could go from place to place with little to no problems. Since the Longing probably took a hundred years or so to really begin in the first place, to have an effect, then more than likely the potential was always there... it is not due to tainted saidin imho. I tend to agree that it is a presence of something in stedding. Also, one chlora tree in Cairhien would not duplicate a full stedding if they did that. Why have many trees in a row when one would suffice? Rather I would think that the range would be limited to a few feet of each tree. Also, I disagree with the assumption that the ways are due to the taint. Considering that they did not begin to show degeneration until a couple hundred years after the Trolloc Wars and Shadar Logoth has a waygate and the Machin Shin is ALOT like Mashadar I would tend to equate this as the cause. Nothing else that was made by men is weakening... the ward on Callandor, the Talisman of Growing various angreal, ter'angreal and sa'angreal were possibly made by men and are in good shape. I tend to think that the seals weakening has nothing to do with the taint as well considering that the male a'dam is made from cuendillar from saidin and is still in decent shape. Also I doubt that is from pre taint as well. For one thing, it is a &quot;forced circle&quot; an impossibility in the AoL and for another it controls a man channeling. I rather think that a man made it in an attempt to stop himself from going mad or to stop himself from killing people and still not kill himself. But thats really no way to really know for sure... it may have been during the end of the war or something, and not common knowledge.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Egwene must die.<br />Rand Al'Thor will face her wrath...<br />And laugh in her face!</font><p></p>


created: 2005-03-20 04:01:16
subject: <b>I AGREE!!</b>
body:
That pathetic Asmo got what was comin to him for ruining poor Jasins life...I weep for you Natael!!<br /><br />~Mat<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Focus on the here and now for it is here that you must live, and now that you must make your decisions. Make your decisions wisely. Do not choose with malice or hate for the negative motives lead to negative consequences and you can only choose once.<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-03-20 07:38:02
subject: <b>lol,</b>
body:
drunkard reborn, now <i>that</i> is funny.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">-Sabin<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-03-20 16:52:42
subject: <b>I think we've found the Third Destroyer</b>
body:
The real Jasin Natael wanders in a drunken haze to Shayol Ghul, and spots Rand engaged in a Power Duel with Moridin.  Natael, peering through a whiskey-tinted haze, looks at Rand, howls: &quot;Wut yoo lookin' at, purty boy?&quot; and punches the Dragon in the face, causing his blood (and a couple of his front teeth) to splatter on the black rocks.  Moridin is so amused by the spectacle that he simultaneously wets himself and loses control of the True Power, incinerating himself in a blinding flash of light.  From there, the Drunkard staggers into the Pit of Doom, convinces Shai'tan to bet the Pattern on a Rock-Paper-Scissors match, and wins by deftly switching from Paper to Rock just as Shaidar Haran starts to form scissors.  The Dark One cries foul, but the Creator finally intervenes, reminding his opposite of the deepest universal precept: &quot;No do-overs.&quot;


created: 2005-03-20 23:11:44
subject: <b>I love it!</b>
body:
Now we finally have a convincing motive and method for the killing of Asmodean!  I would have killed him myself if I were in Jasin Natael's position.<br /><br />I also like the explanation of the third identity, the process of Moridin's demise, and the defeat of the Dark One.  It all fits!  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Who we were is lost to all men, and life is bitter.&quot;<br />&quot;Expect nothing, and you will not be surprised.&quot;  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-03-24 12:49:11
subject: <b>no title</b>
body:
I only realised it was in the humorous section when I had already read half the article. nice explanation though.


created: 2005-04-16 22:09:54
subject: <b>jordan</b>
body:
i don't frequent these boards at all, but i happened to be looking today and noticed the following while reading this theory...<br /><br />Asmodean's real name is Joar Addam Nessosin (not news).  but each of the letters in his new name are present in his old name.  and if you remove those letters you are left with the letters: J O R D A N S I<br /><br />i think pretty much everyone here can then see that Joar Addam Nessosin is an anagram for Jordan Is Asmodean.<br /><br />draw your own conclusions.


created: 2005-04-30 22:07:31
subject: <b>Thanks everyone</b>
body:
who read and posted comments. I appreciate it.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">The Owl of Minerva flies only at dusk, but the Penguin of Idiotochus waddles all day long.<br />I never fight fire with fire; that's what they expect. No, I fight fire with dead leaves.<br /><br />Zeroinbarnotation, RMCM</font><p></p>


created: 2005-09-09 00:38:55
subject: <b><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smackhead.gif" border="0" /></b>
body:
How did I miss this? It makes so much sense.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sister to Nossy<br />Shot swapper with a_fan <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br />Bonded to Phil Reborn and Sidious<br />&quot;Mommies are like wizards&quot; ~ CVH <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br />The fact that I don't agree with you in no way means I didn't understand you.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-10-04 00:24:25
subject: <b>I agree with Youker</b>
body:
I agree with both of you!  Drunken Reborn???  Where in the world did you come up with that?  I mean, I'm laughing for hours here and I cannot understand how anyone could come up with something like that!  I will laugh all through the night.  Thank you!  Both.  Rock Paper Scissors... no do-overs... the sobersworn....


created: 2005-10-23 00:52:32
subject: <b>*sniff*</b>
body:
Think of Natael's three starving children !!!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">It's enough now~</font><p></p>


created: 2006-01-30 10:59:21
subject: <b>well</b>
body:
i don't agree with the theory. for the main reason that i don't remember him killing any one. for i believe rahvin was in camelyn working his way up the ranks to get to Morgase. i think it was rahvin who killed him or maybe Cydane(I believe she's Lanfear) it is a good theory i liked it but i just don't agree with it sorry.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Near-sister to a_fan_of_rolan_dcs<br />Bonded to Ashaman Joey<br />Jenna al'Majere Accepted to the Grey Tower Hoping to be a Greenie.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2006-05-18 23:48:26
subject: <b>BRILLIANT!</b>
body:
Wow, I can't believe I didn't think of that! That is the best explanation so far that I've heard of this very mysterious event...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;SHAIDAR HARAN, GET ME SOME LEMONADE.&quot; (Lord of Chaos, sort of)</font><p></p>


created: 2007-07-08 02:58:38
subject: <b>WOW...</b>
body:
That was so beautiful I cried<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Most Magnificent Master of Metaphors<br />&quot;Take life by the horns. Then when its thrashing around--castrate it!&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-03-29 03:19:07
subject: <b>A very interesting theory!</b>
body:
I edited this theory fairly extensively, partly because it was so long, but also because English is not the author&#8217;s first language. I have tried to keep the author&#8217;s ideas and style intact.<br /><br />As far as &#8216;hope&#8217; being part of Ishamael&#8217;s pre-turning philosophy, I don&#8217;t find this supported by the titles of his books - quite the opposite. I think his allegiance to the Dark One is a logical extension of his view of reality as meaningless. <br /><br />I agree that Elan Morin&#8217;s book on perceived meaning is consistent with Ishamael&#8217;s manipulation of history to legend to myth and in his untruthfulness. His comment in ACOS that what is true to day may not be tomorrow and that he had seen truth change several times in one day and had changed it himself is further evidence of this. It also shows a consistence of thought from the beginning. Ishamael may have betrayed other people&#8217;s hopes, but I doubt he ever espoused &#8216;hope&#8217; in his philosophy. <br /><br />You don&#8217;t cover the fact that he was a theologian as well as a philosopher, or that he called for the destruction of everything. His lost books may be Kantian in their philosophy, but his declaration in favour of the destruction of everything is very revealing. It is a nihilistic philosophy and is consistent with his books on the meaninglessness of reality. (I see parallels with Nietsche&#8217;s philosophy in Ishamael&#8217;s nihilism). No where is there any hint of hope in his work &#8211; most would find his ideas alarming. They seem to be even beyond Mao&#8217;s idea of perpetual revolution.<br /><br />The reference to Nazism is good, because Hitler and Rosenberg are major, and Himmler and Bormann are minor, historical parallels for Ishamael&#8217;s character (this will be in a forthcoming Ishamael FAQ).<br /><br />Ishamael plays mind games with the other Forsaken as well as with the Light. Hence his reputation for insanity; it scares the Forsaken because they can&#8217;t predict Ishamael and believe him capable of anything. This suits Ishamael very well. I don't think he is literally insane or incompetent, he has just manipulated people's perception of him. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Overall, nice job on a difficult subject!<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> Linda Sedai <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Proud member of the Embroiderer's Guild of the White Tower<br /><br /><b><font color="red">FAQ admin</font></b> </font>'cos the FAQ is where it's at.<br /><br /><b>Currently working on:</b> my 70th FAQ<p><a href="http://13depository.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">The thirteenth depository : A Wheel of Time blog</a></p><p></p>


created: 2005-03-29 09:28:25
subject: <b>Very good!</b>
body:
Yet another explanation on the purpose and views of Elan Morin/ishamael/moridin. one of the few I find believable.<br /><br />I like very much the explanation of his name, 'betrayer of hope.' I have wondered in the past why he is not something like 'betrayer of the Light'<br /><br />again, very very good!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">-Sabin<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-03-29 13:52:35
subject: <b>Like Linda said...</b>
body:
I find it very unlikely that any of Ishy's writings are based on Hope. They all sound very fatalistic, and focused on a lack of meaning to existence. That doesn't sound very hopeful to me. <br /><br />The name &quot;Betrayer of Hope&quot; could have come from other reasons. He is as strong as LTT, so the Light knew it had the two strongest male channelers, then one went over to the dark side. Or he could have played like he truly believed in the Light for a year or three, telling the younger philosophers that the light would win etc. and then all the sudden comes out and says the DO will triumph.<br /><br />Philosophy isn't really my bag though, so I'm not going to vote on this theory. It's very well written. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Warder to Be'lal's Girl<br />Wotmania Lottery<br /><br /><br /><br />&quot;Meh. A good relationship is like fireworks: loud, explosive, and liable to maim you if you hold on too long.&quot; ~ Sven, Questionable Content<br /><br />Bonded by Sidious. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-03-29 16:54:24
subject: <b>I like your discussion, but I'm voting no.</b>
body:
I don't think that Ishy ever repudiated his pre-turn philosophy.  Rather, I think it caused him to turn in the first place.<br /><br />Ishy has always struck me as an indomitable nihilist.  His amazing mental faculties no doubt uncovered the inherently cyclical (and rather Manichaean) nature of the world but could not reconcile such conclusions with a world ignorant of the Dark One.  I imagine that this worldview filled Ishy with existential dispair, from which there was no Sartre-esque exit, but which rather informed a Buddhist-like notion of damnation through repetition.  <br /><br />The only way to achieve Nirvana, or release, or whatever, is to break the Wheel.  As many have pointed out, only Ishy really understands that the Day of Return is not about the DO and the Forsaken happily ruling a world dominated by evil.  It is about the End of things -- kind of like what Azrael is trying to do in the movie Dogma.  The DO named Ishy/Moridin Nae'blis because only he is kopasetic (sp?) with the DO's plans.  If you told Moggy, for instance, that she was working to bring about her own end, she would not be best pleased.<br /><br />For this reason I conclude that Ishy was for the Shadow before he knew there was a Shadow.  Or, what is more likely, he knew there must be a Shadow and was ready, willing and able to support it when the Bore was finally drilled.<br /><br />(I'm concerned that you misrepresent Kant to certain extent.  He did not write that reality was meaningless, but rather that the interior nature of objects, <i> das Ding an sich</i>, could never be known by an exterior subject.)<br /><br /><br />TFK<br /><br />


created: 2005-03-29 19:45:09
subject: <b>Philosphy, History, and Jokes</b>
body:
I wonder if Tedronai had an inkling of how strongly dialectic the processes of his world's history are.  The history of the Wheel of Time REALLY is little more than the synthesis of two (well one, and assummedly the Creator) obviously percievable opposite forces dictacting a timeline that is a shared synthesis of both.  If he were aware of this struggle prior to the Bore opening, then certainly, I agree, existential dread must weigh heavily upon &quot;the foremost philosopher of his time.&quot;  However, this seems unlikely, so my supposition that an &quot;a priori&quot; belief would have been derived from a singular belief in the Creator: accompanied by an ignorance to the greater evil of the dialectic.  Once the Dark One was freed, the yin and yang of the universe was revealed to Tedronai.  Hence, Ishy: a man who denies Tedronai.  I believe then, that an effort to break the Wheel would be an effort to make the timeline linear, rather than cyclical; it would make it an effort to escape a quasi-religious existential dread, a circular ennui, and break the Dark One free into an a posteriori world without the dialectic through which history has been derived, without the dialectic that has yielded prima facie meaning.  The reason I like this idea, is because it offers a unique possibility, assumedly not feasible in our would (short of Lucifer's [the tragic-hero, literary figure, not the evil-incarnate, religious figure] victory in the latter days), to switch from an a priori world station to an a posteriori world station.<br /><br />The problem with this, is that good and evil are axioms in The Wheel of time; so if we consider the Dark One and Ishy the champions of a linear, free choice timeline, then how is it that The Dragon is the greatest good in the world?  Also, how can the Shadow be so evidently debased?<br /><br />Anyway, here's a little philosophy joke.<br /><br />What did Kierkegaard call Ishy's saa?<br />The Sickness Unto Moridin<br /><br />HaHAHAHAHAhaha... ugh...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;This nagging malaise feels like a job.  But no boss ever pays you to lay there and think how to die.  Tears start to well in your eyes.&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2005-03-29 19:55:26
subject: <b>Great theory</b>
body:
1. Since the BWB is supposed to be written by an historian or scholar in the world of WoT, it is highly possible that he mistranslated &quot;deconstruction&quot; as &quot;disassembly.&quot;  That, IMHO, adds to the idea of the theory's author that Ishamael was into deconstruction philosophy.<br /><br />2.Unlike most of the posters above, I think the author might be on to something with the idea that Ishamael might have once held some hopeful philosophies.  He seems to have completely embraced a nihilistic attitude, unlike the other Forsaken who want to rule a functioning world, not an ash heap while the Dark One cackles in glee at everything being destroyed.  The DO wants to destroy the Wheel of Time and kill the Great Serpent.  I don't think the Forsaken will be too comfortable in a world where time cannot function.  They refrain from using the True Power except in extreme need, while Ishamael uses it almost exclusively, despite the cost that is visible to the readers, and what darker price he is paying that we don't know about.  This sounds like a man who has turned his back on what he was so completely that he is embracing the opposite at all costs.  <br />Think about the changes of another Forsaken: Graendal turned on her former aescetic lifestyle and embraced hedonism.  This could be what happened with Elan Morin.  The important thing is what the author suggested earlier in the theory, about Elan Morin's theories not surviving as well as Ishamael's.  He suggests that Ishamael suppressed them, and promulgated his Shadow-influenced teachings.  Perhaps there was, as the author implies, some bit of hope or an answer, which Ishamael cannot acknowledge, as it would mean he is on the wrong side.<br />3. This could also help explain why it is so important for Rand to re-learn laughter and tears.  If hope is needed for the Light to triumph (and Rand's current mindset doesn't seem to hold much room for it), it might explain why Ishamael might want his earlier philosophy suppressed.  Remember he also says in his inner monologue while playing tcheran that some serve his ends without knowing it.  Maybe Rand's lashing out in pain and fear or trying to harden his heart against betrayal and loss is actually helping to serve the nihilistic ends of Moridin and the Dark One.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


created: 2005-03-29 20:45:08
subject: <b>Uhm...</b>
body:
This looks like conjecture based on conjecture. I mean, it's all based on the incredibly small amount of information we have on Ishamael's writings, and his ideals before and after turning. Correct me if I'm wrong, but there is very little fact here, almost no evidence, and looks to be conclusions drawn from imperfect and incomplete sources.<br /><br />Not meaning to discredit the theory, so, I've gotta say, it was a rather good piece of work. It does seem a plausible explanation of Ishamael's moral values, or lack thereof.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">http://www.orkut.com/Profile.aspx?uid=4841668765074332965<br /><br />&quot;It's like God gave you the tools to build a house, and the blueprint is in you. Just remember to use rubber gloves.&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2005-03-29 22:41:38
subject: <b>Cannoli : Other Forsaken didn't change at all.</b>
body:
Semirhage, Aginor and Balthamel, for instance.<br /><br />A dragonburned fools theory doesn't discuss Ishy's nihilism. I mentioned it.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> Linda Sedai <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Proud member of the Embroiderer's Guild of the White Tower<br /><br /><b><font color="red">FAQ admin</font></b> </font>'cos the FAQ is where it's at.<br /><br /><b>Currently working on:</b> my 70th FAQ<p><a href="http://13depository.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">The thirteenth depository : A Wheel of Time blog</a></p><p></p>


created: 2005-03-30 09:26:00
subject: <b>Hope</b>
body:
Great theory, but it has a loose thread concerning hope. You don't offer any evidence that his philosophy had anything to do with hope. If he wrote anything at all about hope, I think it must have been in a yet unmentioned book. <br /><br />And ZehGuga, I think it's good reasoning, some of the best I have seen on the Theory Post. The author puts forward certain hypothesis, derives the implications these hypothesis have, and proves it with observations of the same implications. <br /><br />Again, great work, and it fills my heart with joy to see an academic theory that actually has some applications. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before,' Bokonon tells us. 'He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way.'</font><p></p>


created: 2005-03-30 11:18:24
subject: <b>eeeek</b>
body:
thats was heavy going at some points, but once you got to the end it really came together and it was a pleasure to read such a well thought through theory.<br />philosophy is scary <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> let the speedbart ride again upon the winds of time <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Made the second post on the new WoTMB2 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-03-30 16:35:39
subject: <b>Headline</b>
body:
Your theories are always so long <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/frown.gif" border="0" />. I will read it tomorrow... I promise. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perplexed.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smackhead.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /> LLT <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-03-31 10:55:42
subject: <b>interesting</b>
body:
I think nihilism and existentialism are closest to ishy's philosophies before and after his turning.  This would naturalry lead him to turn.  The lack of any of his earlyier writings would be because the ideas were discredited by him using them as reason to turn to the shadow and now he doesn't find them useful (since no one has the education to understand them) or nessecary.  For example if nische himself tried to put his theories in practice by becoming hitler (nitshe was one of hit'ers influences why he isn't liked all that much) much of his work would have been burned.  When have you ever heard of anyone reading mein kampf or seen it in any bookstore?  Overall very well written theory.


created: 2005-03-31 14:05:03
subject: <b>A refreshing outlook</b>
body:
I really enjoyed this theory. It fleshes out Ishamael's character, and though it may not have been Jordan's intention, it feels true. Wouldn't it be neat if Min found one of Ishamael's pre-Chosen books and found something useful to Rand. It's not like she would recognize the name, and if your theory has any merit, it could be an integral part in Rand's fight against the Shadow.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;The rich get richer till the poor get educated.&quot;<br />-Sage Francis</font><p></p>


created: 2005-03-31 16:56:52
subject: <b>There should really be a possibility to vote &quot;undecided&quot;...</b>
body:
I woted yes, but I am really not sure anymore. I am only 15 years old, so I have no real knowledge of Kant or Freud etc., so I really dont have anything to say about the philosophical basics of this theory. It was really interesting, though, and I enjoyed reading it <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />. If true, this theory + various comments makes it a lot easier to understand Ishmaels' line of thinking. After all, why would a bright guy like Ishmael turn to the shadow without any other goals than immortality (well... I dont think that was Ishys only goal, anyway). Apart from that, I think this theory was based upon a thin amount of facts... *Thumbs vertical*<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perplexed.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smackhead.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /> LLT <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-04-02 03:14:14
subject: <b>hi</b>
body:
hi<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> &quot;I'm the D.O.&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /> &quot;No I am&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rand.gif" border="0" /> &quot;KILL THEM!&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /> &quot;You can't possibly win!&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" />*smirks* &quot;Ya wanna make a bet???&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perrin.gif" border="0" /> *mutters* &quot;stupid axe&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/avi.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/min.gif" border="0" /> &quot;YOU CAN DO IT!&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2005-04-26 23:06:46
subject: <b>Awesome</b>
body:
I love philosophy... This was an awesome theory, and it explained some things about the first three books that threw me off a bit.<br /><br />In the first three, since Ishy/Ba'alzamon controls almost all of the forces of shadow, the character's views of evil are that its insane, incoherant, and epic in scope. Then in the fourth book, suddenly there's this shift, and the point of view of evil becomes understandable. At first I sort of thought that was because the good guys had become smart enough to understand it, but the point this theory raises is that it is more because Ishy was dead. Now I understand why he didn't make any sense.<br /><br />Kind of gives new meaning to the &quot;Shadow Raising&quot; off the world.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Incantrix <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2006-02-23 20:44:18
subject: <b>Very Good</b>
body:
However, what I believe caused his name (Betrayer of Hope) was that he was leading a force to help out a besieged legion of the light. And instead of attacking the shadowspawn, attacked the legion.<br /><br />Because im sure lews said something about a battle in a canyon, or something, its been awhile<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Life: Loathe it or ignore it, you can't like it.&quot; The Paranoid Android</font><p></p>


created: 2008-07-02 19:15:58
subject: <b>Good Theory</b>
body:
I enjoyed your theory.  It sounds good.  For some reason as I read your paragraph - I think the third or fourth down when you mention that Elan Morin Tedronai's philosophy had to do with hope for him to betray - all I could think of was, &quot;Maybe Hope was a place&quot;.  We know hardly anything of the Age of Legends so it's a possibility.  Most likely stupid and wrong and I expect to see a whole lot of flaming about it, but thought I'd throw it out there.


created: 2005-03-29 19:59:08
subject: <b>I agreed on the wotboard</b>
body:
why would I disagree here? Good job. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Warder to Be'lal's Girl<br />Wotmania Lottery<br /><br /><br /><br />&quot;Meh. A good relationship is like fireworks: loud, explosive, and liable to maim you if you hold on too long.&quot; ~ Sven, Questionable Content<br /><br />Bonded by Sidious. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-03-29 20:58:12
subject: <b>Nope.</b>
body:
No. Especially regarding Rand channeling against Rahvin. He specifically thinks that the Void is emptier than ever. In no way would emotion build up strength in the Power, or boost it.<br /><br />I'm thinking the channelers have to clear themselves of thought in the begginning to facilitate the Power going into them, just like you take a longer time to get settled into a car when you start driving, than when you are more experienced.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">http://www.orkut.com/Profile.aspx?uid=4841668765074332965<br /><br />&quot;It's like God gave you the tools to build a house, and the blueprint is in you. Just remember to use rubber gloves.&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2005-03-30 06:18:26
subject: <b>Me like</b>
body:
This could very well be true.  <br />Though i do believe that Myrdraal were a throwback, not intentionally designed.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Taking responsibility drains all the fun out of live and dries a man to dust.<br /><br /> - Mat Caughton<br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-03-30 13:57:16
subject: <b>Hate making stupid headlines...</b>
body:
I like your theory <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />. It really makes much sense... It also makes me think of McEnroe (The tennisplayer) as a Dark Jedi <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" />. He was never afraid of showing his emotions, was he? Good job! *Thumbs up*<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perplexed.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smackhead.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /> LLT <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-03-30 14:03:08
subject: <b>what ZehGuga said</b>
body:
As well as you have confused the male way of channeling with the female way of channeling.  I personally was never under the impression that women channel without feelings.  If they did I think it would be described as such.  The only comment on emotion is for Nynaeve and her need to be angry.  Since anger is something you typically feel when you have no intentions of surrendering, AS believe it interfers with surrendering to saidar.  However even the abscence of emotion is not mentioned in the Test to be AS.  One must purely channel under duress.  Anxiety and fear in this situation do not impede the AS from being able to chanel though it might impede their concentration in doing so.  If you had limited your theory only to women then I may have been more inclined to agree.  But some of your evidence is not evidence and some of it actually contradicts your theory like the quote that ZehGuga refered to.  Your misuse of the fury of the power as the fury of the person is an example of evidence which is not evidence.  And your summary point of emotional neutrality being necessary for channeling by both men and women is contradicted by Nynaeve.  Your justification for both Jedi and Ajah differences are conjecture.  If you train for a certain thing you are going to be better at it than those who haven't trained for that purpose.  I am not a big SW guy so I'm only going on the info you've provided.  The Dark Jedi from the information you've provided basically have home turf advantage.  The green ajah are better than the white ajah because they have an interest in and a specialization in battle.  In both cases their abilities simply reflect how they were trained not their temperments.  Their temperments made them choose which training they would take.<br />Finally in reference to snarls and such by male channelers.  Please consider that Rand's point of view shows us that emotions can exist outside of the void.  But he does not experience them similar to the way he can choose not to experience the cold even when it is freezing.  But his control of his body in reaction to stimuli such as the cold is directly related to the amount of effort he chooses to divert to that.  Since emotion can exist outside of the void they can still affect your body if you can not divert enough attention to controlling it.  So if the Forsaken's faces are contorted in rage or if Rand screams at Rahvin it is purely because they are completely focused on maintaining the void and performing tasks with the power instead of wasting some of their focus on controlling their expression or voices or shivering if their fight were to take place in the snow.  I think the books have made very clear the distinction between having emotions and experiencing them.  No person in the books has ever eliminated having them and only males don't experience them.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where did these Skimmers come from?  I mean if they didn't want to read the book they could have just Traveled to another author.  Why risk arriving at the wrong destination?  Why risk falling into darkness?</font><p></p>


created: 2005-03-30 16:31:05
subject: <b>As far as emotion...</b>
body:
I really liked this theory!  As far as the people above who disagree with an advantage of added emotion, I think that sports can show us otherwise.  Why do teams do better at home?  Why do coaches try to pump up their players?  The emotions of excitement, determination, anger, etc. are proven to increase physical strength through added adrenaline.  Athletes who play with an emotional calm will probably play with a lot of skill and deliberation, but athletes who can harness anger or excitement can give themselves an edge over other players.  That is the entire point of adrenaline: increased strength, dexterity, and sensory perception triggered by extreme emotional stress.  At the same time, any emotion that is not controlled, be it fear, intimidation, hatred, etc. will actually hurt the athlete by fogging their higher mental functions.  It is a balance act, and I think that very similar principles apply to channelers.


created: 2005-03-30 16:33:01
subject: <b>Stupid title-requirement</b>
body:
Oh, please Onarishma... do you really think snarls and such just come to being? If a person who is channeling doesn't pay any attention to his emotions do you think he would snarl? If you are in the Void, you ignore your feelings... it comes with the package, I think... Isn't a snarl a more or less concious action? Let me give you an example (you might find this ridiculous): If you are not paying attention at all, and someone asks you to fetch him/her an Ice Tea, does your body go get it without you even noticing the question? If you ignore your feelings, there is no question of giving in to them in the form of a snarl or such... You follow? The emotions are OUTSIDE the void. <br /><br />Quote: No. Especially regarding Rand channeling against Rahvin. He specifically thinks that the Void is emptier than ever. In no way would emotion build up strength in the Power, or boost it.<br /><br />Dont agree... If we assume emptier/larger void allows more power being channeled, then why is the void larger when Rand is angry? In one of the books, Rand describes &quot;the flame and the void&quot; to us. The basics is that there is the flame, and there is the void. In the flame, you burn all your emotions and create a void. I think the more emotions you &quot;burn&quot; to create the void, the larger the void gets. Pretty neat, right?<br /><br />No, Onarishma and ZehGuga, you will not turn my thump yet... Then you will have to get back to me (please do) <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />(I am sorry if I have somewhere here argued against myself. That would be dumb <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smackhead.gif" border="0" />)<br /><br />And, how in hell is ridiculous spelled?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perplexed.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smackhead.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /> LLT <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-03-30 20:34:32
subject: <b>Anger isn't the answer</b>
body:
This is an interesting theory, but I only agree with parts of it.  The concept that channeling requires an initial nullification of emotion seems fairly straightforward, whether it's feeding all one's emotions into the Void or focusing on the flower bud.  Fine.<br /><br />However, women definitely have no problem with the concept of feeling emotion once they've accessed the Power.  From Elayne and Egwene's POV, we learn that channeling is a HIGHLY pleasurable experience.  It's nearly joyful.  That's hardly emotionless.  It's joy borne out of initial surrender for women.  For women, feeling emotion while channeling is natural.<br /><br />I often found it strange that with her block, Nynaeve needed to be angry to access the Power.  Anger, arrogance (which, while I'm coming to like Nynaeve, she so has in abundance it's nearly disgusting - I mean she wants to Heal someone 3 days dead because it RANKLES her that there's anything she CAN'T do, rather than any humanitarian desire, but I digress) are the antithesis of surrender and humility.  Once Nynaeve is unblocked, and has learned (some) humility, she's far more capable.  And when Rand tries to actively control saidar, it nearly drowns him.  This Nynaeve-oddity befuddles me.<br /><br />The male channelers, like women, feel more &quot;alive&quot;, more perceptive when they've &quot;seized&quot; saidin.  Sure, there's an initial nullification of emotion, but once they've seized the source, they're full of grandiosity.  Odd that their senses are heightened (smell, touch, vision, hearing, balance), yet they can't feel PAIN.  This. Is. Bizarre.  Channeling selectively mutes nociception.  There's a neurologist at the NIH that would just LOVE this.<br /><br />I'm digressing again.  I find the combination of heightened sensation and emotional neutrality to be something of a paradox.<br /><br />Now, here's where I quite disagree with this theory.  I don't see ANGER as being preferentially more useful an emotion to enhance channeling.  Otherwise, Cadsuane and Sorilea would need to teach Rand and the Ashaman &quot;fury and teeth-gnashing&quot; rather than laughter and tears.<br /><br />I see true humility, love, honor, and joy as being FAR more powerful than anger and arrogance.  However (and this is the BIG HUGE however, and the secret to why Jedi truly do have the potential to be stronger than Sith) such positive emotions are much much much much more difficult to cultivate and refine.  Anger and arrogance may be plenty powerful, but they really are the quick and easy path.  The back door into &quot;spirituality&quot;, which means you do gain access, but you're covered in grime.  Which is fine if you like filth, but if you don't...you're gonna have to do things the slow and difficult way.<br /><br />The problem with the Old Republic Jedi is that they've allowed themselves to become arrogant, and cut themselves off from love, which sealed them off from their full power.  Meanwhile, Darth Sidious' power lies in their arrogance and hatred - it feeds him in some bizarre mystical sense.  Mace Windu is a somewhat arrogant fool for trying to take the Sith Lord by force.  Sure, he felt he had no other choice, but he gave in to hate, and it was his un-doing (although, from what I understand, he may still have WON that fight if not for Anakin's betrayal).<br /><br />I think ideally Jedi do love and have compassion.  It adds to their peace.  Luke's feelings for Leia are considered good things, until they are used against him.  But in and of themselves, they aren't considered bad.  <br /><br />Finally, when Rand gets REALLY passionate (about Aviendha), poof! there goes the Void.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Live as if you were living for the second time and had acted as wrongly the first time as you are about to act now.  -VF</font><p></p>


created: 2005-03-30 21:03:48
subject: <b>I disagree</b>
body:
Anything an athlete can do while he's angry he can do better while he's calm...I see no reason channeling should be different.  Rand can go that deep in the Void and command saidin that forcefully whenever he wants, but it takes motivation to make yourself give 110% like that.  His anger might have been a motivating factor, but in no way am I willing to believe that it made him any more of a powerful or even efficient channeler.  Being angry prompted the effort, but it did not enable it.


created: 2005-03-31 12:11:15
subject: <b>indeed</b>
body:
I am inclined to agree with this in it's majority.  The strongest fighters throughtout history are the ones that have something to fight for an Emotional purpose.  Emotion if controlled can lend a person strength ( the mom who lifts a car off her child that has been run over (actual true story i can find it if you want)).  The only thing i disagree with here is old caddy dieing to teach rand Laughter and tears.  She may die but learning laughter through the death's all of your advisor's would only lead to bitterness and in the meeting with Sorlie and caddy one of them says &quot;He only knows how to laugh in bitterness&quot; not exact but i am at work so can't look up the exact qoute.  I have a hunch his kids are gonna make him laugh again no proof just a hunch.  And love will be the emotion not anger that will give him the strength.  For now he fights cause he is supposed to he finds his role as duty.  Think how much stronger he would be fighting because he wanted to.  Instead of sacrificing himself for the world cause of prophesy and expectation sacrificing him self for his daughter/son.<br /><br />Not a sermon just a thought <br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br /><br />Respond to PR, react with force. yup, definitely American -Fyatuk<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-blue.gif" border="0" /> Sce`ce of Mighty Slayer of the Ninja Monkeys <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-blue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br />Charter Memeber- NANOUS<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-03-31 13:51:35
subject: <b>Too many loose threads</b>
body:
Your theory is not without merit, but there are things which you rely on that don't directly support your ideas. First and foremost is Nynaeve. Most of your quotes of her were when she had a psychological block from the TS. This block was bridged by anger, so it stands to reason that more anger would access more of the OP for her.<br /><br />The Green vs White Ajah argument is also explained by more conventional reasons. The Green Ajah is the battle Ajah. They study battles, participate in fighting (the Shadow, at least), and are expected to know what to do in messy siturations. The White Ajah is logic-driven. Most women in this sub-group would fit into a philosopher's state of mind. There's no reason they should study war on such a basic level, and it is not surprising they are battle-shy. As far as their temperaments are concerned, women are selected for their Ajah long before they even know what they want themselves. Emotional states parallel interests in the world. You wouldn't expect a &quot;flower-power&quot; hippie to make a good soldier, and conversely, General Patten would make a lousy negotiator. Not surprisingly, hippies dodged the draft, and Patten opted for a military career. <br /><br />This doesn't deny your theory, but it does pound some heavy dents in your support. Still, your other points demand consideration. Emotion is the language of the will, and it makes sense that in a battle of wills (something Rand most assuredly must do in the upcoming books), emotions will play a large part.<br /><br />Good ideas, even if your points are a little loose.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;The rich get richer till the poor get educated.&quot;<br />-Sage Francis</font><p></p>


created: 2005-03-31 16:04:28
subject: <b>LLT</b>
body:
You may be right, and having anger fuels the Flame, and makes the Void bigger, but it still doesn't allow more Power to be channeled. But, the size of the Void isn't related at all to the amount of Power. If anything, having the Void bigger will let you concentrate better.<br /><br />Adrenaline does give you an edge in sports. However, when you channel, even if it places physical strain on your body, you are excersizing a strictly mental function, and adrenaline will not affect it. It would be correct to say that, being an excersize of the mind, emotion would affect channeling, but negatively, like all the channeling teachers in WOT say. Just like meditation.<br /><br />Also, if there was any increase whatsoever, especially one significant enough to give you an edge in battle, wouldn't any of our channelers have noted it?<br /><br />You spelled ridiculous right, I think. If I spelled channel, or anything derived of it wrong (or anything at all), I'm sorry, but I'm Brazilian, so I have a little difficulty.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">http://www.orkut.com/Profile.aspx?uid=4841668765074332965<br /><br />&quot;It's like God gave you the tools to build a house, and the blueprint is in you. Just remember to use rubber gloves.&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2005-03-31 16:10:00
subject: <b>To entyti...</b>
body:
Accepted choose their ajahs themselves after the test for the shawl... have you not read New Spring?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perplexed.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smackhead.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /> LLT <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-03-31 16:55:38
subject: <b>So you snarl on purpose,</b>
body:
Interesting....<br /><br />Quick.  Answer this.  Was your first smile on purpose?  Have you constantly had to make yourself do so since that first time?  How did you know that how you moved your face matched up with the way other peoples did?<br /><br />If you answer these questions honestly you'll tell me that as a baby you smiled automatically when you were happy.  You'll tell me that sometimes you are smiling and you don't even know it.  You'll tell me that your expressions are physically wired to match up with your emotions just like shivering is matched up with you sense of temperature.<br /><br />Since you have been so honest we can talk about the theme of controlling your features or lying with them that seems to be the MO of Rand Aiel and AS in general.  Choosing what to show on your face seems to be an action that requires constant thought and energy.  Thought and energy that you can't spare in a duel for your life.<br /><br />Facial expressions are like breathing in the biological sense.  You can control your breath if you want to but when you aren't paying attention to it it happens on its on.  Psychological research also shows that even when you aren't aware of your own feelings you may still subconcsiously act on them.  That is the premise here.<br /><br />What you seem to have misuderstood is that I did not claim that snarls just come into being.  I specifically compared ignoring your emotions to ignoring the cold.  I also  specifically made a distinction between having emotions and experiencing them.  Your analogy to dispute these things was not appliacable.  Your analogy had to do with thought not emotion, so the your first statements specifically to me are unfounded.  Thoughts affect emotion and emotions affect thought but there is a reason why they are distinguished from one another.<br /><br />The second statement you made about the void becoming larger.  The first thing you say is ASSUME that larger void equals more power but you have no proof of that number one and number two that idea was not included in your original theory so we had not opportunity to tell you that sooner.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where did these Skimmers come from?  I mean if they didn't want to read the book they could have just Traveled to another author.  Why risk arriving at the wrong destination?  Why risk falling into darkness?</font><p></p>


created: 2005-03-31 17:03:55
subject: <b>Forgive me for thinking LTT wrote this theory in my last post</b>
body:
For someone who did not write the theory you seemed a little extra offended.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where did these Skimmers come from?  I mean if they didn't want to read the book they could have just Traveled to another author.  Why risk arriving at the wrong destination?  Why risk falling into darkness?</font><p></p>


created: 2005-04-01 02:24:41
subject: <b>No offence taken</b>
body:
Well... I just felt like posting a real comment for once <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" />. If I were to argue against something, I might as well do it properly (even though you you don't seem to think my arguing is very convincing). I agree with you that the last thing I wrote was just a lot of rubbish, though; I'm not even sure if I myself believe that. It was just how I understood the theory... As for your arguing on subconcious smiles and such, I certainly did not use the void when I was a little child :/ . What it all comes down to, really, is wether or not we believe that ignoring your feelings comes with the void. When Rand and others are in the void, their voices are frequently described as beind cold as ice and without emotion in them. I dont know if that is concious or a side-effect of the void. You seem to think it is concious; I think it's a side-effect. So does sidious (I think :S). As I understood it, what he seems to be implying is that if you feed emotion into the void you will be stronger. If you do that, your feelings will no longer be cut off from your body. What I meant with the snarling-thing is that your body cant react on feelings it is not aware of. <br />(I may have misunderstood the theory, though... if that is the case, I am truly sorry, sidious.)<br /><br />Hope I made it a bit clearer without repeating myself <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perplexed.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smackhead.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /> LLT <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-04-01 02:26:28
subject: <b>oi</b>
body:
I understood yor apology wasn't for me.... I just forgot I didn't write the theory...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perplexed.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smackhead.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /> LLT <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-04-01 12:39:19
subject: <b>by the way</b>
body:
Its LLT, not LTT<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perplexed.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smackhead.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /> LLT <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-04-01 18:29:03
subject: <b>In which movie did this &quot;Jedi Code&quot; appear?</b>
body:
Because otherwise, I reject it categorically as non-canon.  All those other novels, in addition to being poorly written (with a bare handful of exceptions), contradicted a great deal that has since been revealed in the prequels.  They are no more &quot;Real&quot; Star Wars than the RPG is real WoT.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


created: 2005-04-01 18:38:53
subject: <b>Oi?</b>
body:
Is that Portuguese or my mistake?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">http://www.orkut.com/Profile.aspx?uid=4841668765074332965<br /><br />&quot;It's like God gave you the tools to build a house, and the blueprint is in you. Just remember to use rubber gloves.&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2005-04-01 18:42:46
subject: <b>Great theory...</b>
body:
And well put together.  OP mechanics are definitely not my cup of tea, but I tend to agree that calm within the Void and external emotions are two different things.  As somebody said up there, Rand's emotions are stretched to razor wire after Rahvin killed Mat and Aviendha, but inside the Void, he is more dispassionate than ever.  His screams and snarls really do seem like they are totally unconscious.  Like when the gateway slices his foot in ACOS, it was somebody else's pain.  Rand was still limping, but he didn't feel it.  Rand was still snarling, but he was barely conscious of it.<br /><br />I do agree with you about the women, however.  The Green Ajah, White Ajah parallels seem very apt, to me.  I'm not going to vote just yet, I'll wait for your rebuttlals, but if you had kept this to just the women, then I would have given it a thumbs up.<br /><br />Excellent use of quotes, too, BTW.  It's so reassuring to see a theory that uses them instead of semantics and mumbo-jumbo.  Thanks again for a great theory!


