# w_comment

created: 2002-05-05 17:28:23
subject: <b>Me again</b>
body:
Found the reference.<br /><br />It's in the <b>Possible Identity of Demandred</b> theory by Mahiro in the comments. The blackboard id of the comment is 6020. The theory is listed under Demandred, I think.<br /><br />As far as I can read it, Mahiro had an identical theory and RJ himself said no. Maybe Mahiro should make a comment on this.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />   the Harvester of Mankind    <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />      the Thief of Years       <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />     the Slayer of Worlds      <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />     the Ultimate Reality      <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Blog - brucetheloon.blogspot.com</font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-05 21:33:41
subject: <b>re: comments towards theory</b>
body:
Back when Moiraine had first come into the story, and had told the whole tale of Manetharen, I could swear that she mentioned that in the final battle (where the darkfriends, trollocs, etc were lined up in thousands of thousands) King Aemon led the last charge, but I don't recall her specifying the titles of the various guards, which still leaves the possibility that the theory is true.


created: 2002-05-05 23:21:11
subject: <b>One of Mat's Fox memories</b>
body:
The one where he advised a King not to take this path was against another nation, not the Trollocs<br /><br />I think it was the song where Asmodean/Natael was singing in TSR and Mat thought how inaccurate the song was. Something about the opposing King taking pity on the valiant Mantheran Guards.<br /><br />Anyway he ended up in a river with 3 0r 4 arrows in him (about to become an ex-parrot). Mat remembers the opposing King (who slaughtered the Manetheran guards) in another memory, older and getting killed by a young farmer (or something like that)<br /><br />So it wasn't Aemon<br /><br />Will he save her from the bootmaker?   <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />


created: 2002-05-06 00:13:27
subject: <b>That advise</b>
body:
Mat gives, as Talmanes says, is agianst an evil king guy. I'd get the place in tSH where the quote is located but I'm to lazy. I was getting very frusterated that after a bunch of posts, and one guy agreeing, nobody corrected it. As much as I usually dislike Columbos stupid people bashing I can honestly say, in this post, that I agree whole heartedly. I am not sold on Mat's being Aemon, I have come to the conclusion that I shouldn't be sold on anything anymore in WoT (RJ throws far too many curveballs), but I am now thinking of this possibility.  <br /><br />Another thought I would like to throw in is this, Have we ever been given a description of Aemon? I ask this because it seems that people reborn have the same basic body type, ie, LTT and Rand are very tall, handsome; Birgette always has the gold braid; gadal Cain always stumpy and ugly. This is, of course, not definative evidence either way but it might give some indication. <br /><br />I would go about correcting other peoples idiot mistakes, but I havn't the time nor the inclination. <br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Junius Maltby Lives!</font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-10 21:55:25
subject: <b>Forget about the foxes!</b>
body:
Forget about the Foxes!  The Foxes and the memories they gave Mat have no bearing on this.  We are talking pre Foxes so stop with the Foxes and the memories Mat was given!<br /><br />Columbo is on the case!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-11 15:37:11
subject: <b>Columbo Predicts!</b>
body:
Remeber well my prediction.  Mat is King Aemon reborn and will marry Egwene Al'vere!  I will leave you with one of many not so obvious hints.<br /><br />&quot;  It seems you care for them.  One of them, at least, I suppose it is.  I'am sorry, Mat Cauthon. &quot;<br /><br />If you are aware of this passage good,  if you are not you'll have to wait for more from Columbo.  Maybe another Theory on the obvious that's not.<br /><br />Columbo is on the case!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-13 21:51:02
subject: <b>Theory is good</b>
body:
I agree with it totally. What I'm replying to is the Egwene/Mat thing....Columbo, I've agreed with u up to this point. But the quote u gave was not from someone with great insight into the interractions between characters. At this point, Mat was upset he had let his friends down, not upset because he was in love with any one of them. After all, that's one of Mat's traits. Hard to pin down, but very loyal, and never willing to break his word. Aside from that, of course, is that Mat will marry the Daughter of the Nine Moons. It's in the prophecies of the 'finns--and it's in his destiny. I know Jordan often gives ambiguous prophecies that aren't fulfiled the way we anticipate, but this is pretty cut and dry. And unless Mat turns Aiel, I doubt he'll be having 2 wives.<br /><br />And of course, this is all completely off topic, but those kind of ramblings are the ones I'm best at <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Memnoch Sedai<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" /> Devish Green <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /> Proud bonder of Vahn de Mac <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /><br />She who is very good <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /> At being very bad <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /><br />Member of the <font color="#0000FF">English</font> <font color="#FF0000">Quisition</font><br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/13777.gif" /> Sax is life....the rest is just details <img src="images/personalsmilies/13777.gif" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-14 16:20:56
subject: <b>the name says it all</b>
body:
Anybody ever notice, that (mat) CAUTHON looks suspiciously like al CAar al THOriN ???<br />might be too simple for RJ but hey u all made this discussion so complicated maybe its time for a little simplicity.<br /><br />By the way I too remember the scene where Mat advises Aemon in one of his memories.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">The Sliph<br /><br />[I just picked this name because all good ones were taken]</font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-15 21:24:43
subject: <b>Nice thoughts Memnoch Sedai</b>
body:
I like the way you think.  I'am 100% positive that Mat is Aemon reborn.  Mat marrying Egwene is just a hunch, though I will stick with it.  I believe also that Mat will marry Tuon.  Will it last?<br /><br />Columbo is on the case!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-31 19:12:45
subject: <b>a glimmer of understanding</b>
body:
Well, boys and girls, I suppose we can ignore the random finn memories Mat was given as proof for or against this theory now, seeing as RJ has explained in Glimmers where they really came from.  Apparently the memories are from people who actually went into the finn doorways before, and the reason that so many are from daring soldiers and womanizers is that you'd have to be a pretty daring kind of guy to go into one of those doorways.  Columbo was right, you have to look at what was happening before he went into those finn doorways.<br />    Incidentally, Columbo, why do you think that Mat will get with Egwene when Mat is destined to marry the daughter of the Nine Moons and Egwene and Gawyn are madly in love with each other?  Also, how would Mat become Tuon's Warder when she can't channel?  Seeing as she's Seanchan, if she could channel, wouldn't she already be a damane or a sul'dam by now?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Luck is a horse to ride like any other<br /><br />StaffWielder@wotmania.com</font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-02 10:29:04
subject: <b>Tuon</b>
body:
If I remeber correctly Tuon could have become a Sul'dam but because of her position as DotNM she did not.  I may be mistaken but I seem to remeber her taking up an Adam's bracelet somewere in Winter's Heart.<br /><br />Ipkin Syld<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> Taint Crazy Shienarian <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/uno.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> Slayer of renegade <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /> Whitecloaks <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> Warder to a Green <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Ipkin Styld<br />Channeling Borderlander<br />Slayer of renegade Whitecloaks<br />Kicker of major Trolloc Rear-end</font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-04 22:25:48
subject: <b>Tuon the queen question??</b>
body:
Ok, like  dummy I let someone borrow tEotW and they moved pretty fast so now I don't have my reference. But the question I have is didn't the wife(Queen) of Aemon when she found out that Aemon was dead took in so much of the One Power that it killed the Trollocs and herself?<br />And if so then I think that Tuon being able to become a sul`dam will play into the cards.  I also think it will play a role into the down fall of the Seanchan empire and the rise of King Mat and Queen Tuon.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Every man dies not every man really lives.&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/seanchan.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-21 09:23:49
subject: <b>Al Thorin</b>
body:
I personally think that ,even though this may bee kindof off topic for this theory, Tam al'Thor is a direct decendant of King Aemon.  King Aemon's kinal name is al Thorin and over years of use it could have easily been shortened to al'Thor<br /><br />Ipkin Styld<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> Channeling Borderlander <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/uno.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" /> Slayer of Whitecloaks <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/clonetrooper.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Ipkin Styld<br />Channeling Borderlander<br />Slayer of renegade Whitecloaks<br />Kicker of major Trolloc Rear-end</font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-19 13:22:24
subject: <b>Yes but..</b>
body:
I would say that's one of many people Mat has been.  Notice how his accent changes frequently when speaking in the old tongue to Birgette.  Also his skill with battles is largely based in having been in such an enormous number of them, in just about every position from soldier to general.  He mentions remembering numerous deaths in battle so it seems pretty clear he has the memories of many men.  Is it such a stretch that these are all his past lives?


created: 2002-10-30 14:19:40
subject: <b>mith</b>
body:
umm its been proven and stated repeatedly that all the memories mat has after going through the twisty stone doorway and makeing the deal with the finns has no affect on this theory as all the evidence is pre-doorway and in glimmers (so ive noted from comments on this very theory, i havent finished it myself so i cant say exactly) the origin of mats doorway memories is explained.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Ipkin Styld<br />Channeling Borderlander<br />Slayer of renegade Whitecloaks<br />Kicker of major Trolloc Rear-end</font><p></p>


created: 2002-12-12 17:27:49
subject: <b>About the Warder Part</b>
body:
Maybe Aemon was his wife's Warder, who was an Aes Sedai. (Sorry if this has been said already, but I'm too lazy to see if it has been.)


created: 2002-12-19 02:41:40
subject: <b>mat</b>
body:
I always believed that Mat was king Aemon or atleast some hero re-born. Theres so much information that supposedly backs this up. But he's not. He's not a reborn hero either. Why do i say this? Becasue Jordan said so himself. Jordan told us that his head got filled with others' memories. Perhaps some of Aemon's memories are now in mat's head.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Lord of the Morning <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-13 16:38:58
subject: <b>Tam...</b>
body:
Is a descendant of King Aemon. Matrim Cauthon may or may not be reborn of anyone special, but from day one, the suggestion is that the memories are carried in the blood, not by rebirth. Moiraine or Lan, one, would have made more of a hint than that as to any business of being someone important reborn otherwise. <br /><br />Again, I say that this doesn't mean Mat ISN'T reborn of Aemon, but other issues make it seem less likely.<br /><br />Perrin is sure to become the first Lord of the New Manetheren. I still submit that this will be a result of his saving Morgase from the Shaido while riding under the Red Eagle. She will award him the western portion of the realm, which she admits she has no true control over. The Red Eagle banner in the viewing of Mat dovetails with his OT warcry and such, marking him as very strongly of the old blood, which proves nothing about past lives. It was necessary to establish the power of the old blood to strengthen the prophecy of the Dragon that he would be raised of the old blood. Rand is NOT of Manetheren blood by any means, so it would have been wrong to have him spitting out OT and Manetheren war cries, so it had to be Mat. Why not Perrin? Well, he has his thing with being the Wolfbrother, so to balance the ta'veren business Mat gets the strong ties to the old blood.<br /><br />And again I say that does nothing to make him King Aemon returned. Or not.<br /><br />Agreed, his memories of ancient battle suggest he is someone reborn from that time, since that occurred prior to his having hundreds of other random memories added to fill the holes in his own. Oh, and on that thought, he couldn't have been all of those different people reborn whose memories he has been given. He remembers being on both sides of the same battle in one case.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> Call me Tim <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-30 12:51:12
subject: <b>recked_it</b>
body:
did you even read the other comments before adding your own?  i dont mean to sound really harsh but well this has been discussed. just because mat has a bunch of other guys memories in his head doesnt mean that he cant be aemon reborn. they arnt mutually exclusive<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Ipkin Styld<br />Channeling Borderlander<br />Slayer of renegade Whitecloaks<br />Kicker of major Trolloc Rear-end</font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-05 18:56:36
subject: <b>Nope</b>
body:
mat remembers giving king aemon advise on not taking the guy they were battling seriously. as far as we know, a person cannot be two souls at once unless twisted by the shadow like luc/isam. but even they have to share the body. theyre are never present at the same time...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rand.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perrin.gif" border="0" /><br />I don't fail. I succeed in finding what doesn't work. <br /><br /><font color="00ff33">Official Sponsor of the Melindhra Fan Club</font></font><p><a href="http://www.illwillpress.com" target="_blank">Feel the Squirley Wrath!!!!</a></p><p></p>


created: 2003-02-13 18:04:27
subject: <b>Yep</b>
body:
I knew for a long time that Mat was someone reborn but I couldn't figure out who.  Thanx for informing me.


created: 2003-02-27 17:58:55
subject: <b>Also..</b>
body:
In one of the books Mat had a flash back of dancing with a high ranking Sea Folk woman in a court in Manetheren. Has anyone else noticed that most of the flashbacks Mat has that he remembers have alot to do with Manetheren?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Halt here! Now! By the order of the Lord Dragon! Else he channel your head into your belly and feed you your own feet for breakfast!<br />     -Mat Cauthon<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-03-01 14:06:51
subject: <b>Very possible.....</b>
body:
I think this theory is very possible because of the fact that Aemon died in Emonds Field and it would seem logical that he would be rebord in the same place where he died based on the fact that Rand was reborn on Dragonmount where LTT died.  I liked also your ideas about him in tEotW, when he spurts up alot of the old tongue, most especaly those phrase know as king Aemon's war cries.  The one weak point that could counter your theory is the final battle of Manetheran when Mat remembers giving orders.  This could prove he was a very high ranking Manetheran General and died there and was also reborn where he died.  <br />Now this leads me to think that Perrin is Aemon reborn, because he is the one who takes over in the Two Rivers and might later on become the king of a new, reborn Manetheran. It would be interesting if RJ threw in something more about Manetheran and its final king, like details about his life and that such.  Like maybe that he was a simple man(like perrin) who was thrown into being a king/leader when he didn't expect it or something to that effect. <br />wow! i didn't expect to right that much, maybe i should right a theory of my own....<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Two Moons<br />&quot;All hail Perrin, the greatest character ever.&quot;<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perrin.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perrin.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perrin.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perrin.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perrin.gif" border="0" /> is <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /> above all <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/coffee.gif" border="0" /> is so good<br /><br />WoT: the only thing i'll rant about. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Mostly dedicated member since 2003. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/winky.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/censored.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-04-07 05:30:56
subject: <b>but the dragon is</b>
body:
in a way the dragon is tied to the horn if you remmeber correct(im not gunna go diging through the books for a page number) when the horn was blown at falme artur hawking said that the dragon commanded them<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Soon comes the day all shall be free. 0<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br />Even you, and even me.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />Soon comes the day all shall die.:0<br />Surely you, but never I.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /><br />-Padan Fain <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-08-26 19:05:56
subject: <b>Mat is a Rebirth...</b>
body:
In one of his interviews (I don't remember which, sorry) RJ said that the best examples of rebirth were Birgitte and Mat.... I don't know whether that means he is Aemon or not (I personally believe he is one of the Manetheran generals).<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-10-20 19:12:44
subject: <b>For the honor of the rose of the sun! For the rose of the sun</b>
body:
In your theory, you state that the rose of the sun was manetherans kings battle cry, but if im not mistaken, wasnt it not his battle cry, but his title. There for mat would be saying &quot;for the honor of me&quot; if he were that king, and thats stupid. If he is someone reborn, i think he is the same guy he is now, leader of the band of the red hand. that would explain his ties to manetheran and his crie For the honor of the rose of the sun! For the rose of the sun becuase he would be defending the rose of the sun.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I have absolutely no idea what's going on.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-10-20 22:18:47
subject: <b>The Rose of the Sun</b>
body:
I recall that &quot;The Rose of the Sun&quot; is another name for Ellisande (probobly spelled wrong, the queen of Manetheren) It would make sence that the king would be screaming &quot;for the honor of the queen (and country by implication)&quot;<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Ipkin Styld<br />Channeling Borderlander<br />Slayer of renegade Whitecloaks<br />Kicker of major Trolloc Rear-end</font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-03 00:22:38
subject: <b>He was Aemon's guard</b>
body:
Mat can't be the reincarnation of King Aemon, because, although he remembers being at the last battle for Manetheren, it's as Aemon's guard. He's not any one person reincarnated, but has simply appropriated the memories of various generals from different times in the past- I believe RJ said this explicitly (go to wot FAQ, at linuxmafia.org/Jordan and click on the question about Mat's memories, I think they quote RJ there)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose. <br />                   Janis Joplin <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-05-17 18:54:26
subject: <b>The Heart Guard</b>
body:
I do believe that Matt is Aemon reborn, the evidence for it good and the evidence agaist is (IMHO) too weak.<br />The argument that Matt couldn't be Aemon because he remembered leading the King's Guard is erroneous. As was stated earlier, he lead the honor guard, not the King's guard. In a country ruled by a Queen who's Aes Sedai and a King who's a Warder, It would make sense that 1) the Queen would be the dominant ruler, (as in modern Andor) and 2)the King would lead the Honor Guard. Also, I beleve one of Matt's old tongue rants included &quot;Forward the Heart Guard&quot;, which may be a reference to the Honor Guard that Aemon would logically lead.


created: 2004-07-11 14:23:32
subject: <b>sorry to break it to you</b>
body:
this sounds like a good theroy but it isnt true at all. look here  RJ: Mat's memories are NOT from his ancestors. He said [he wanted] to have the holes in his head filled but he did not specify exactly what he wanted them filled with and so he received scraps and bits and pieces of memories stolen from other men.<br />and this RJ: No, Mat's &quot;old&quot; memories are not from his past lives at all. The &quot;sickness&quot; he got from the Shadar Logoth dagger resulted in holes in his memory. He found whole stretches of his life that seemed to be missing. When he passed through the &quot;doorframe&quot; ter'angreal in Rhuidean, one of the things he said - not knowing that the rules here were different than in the other ter'angreal he had used - was that he wanted the holes in his memory filled up, meaning that he wanted to recover his own memories. In this place, however, it was not a matter of asking questions and receiving answers, but of striking bargains for what you want. What he received for that particular demand was memories gathered by the people on that side of the ter'angreal, memories from many men, all long dead, from many cultures. And since not everyone passing by has the nerve to journey through a ter'angreal to some other world, the memories he receieved were those of adventurers and soldiers and men of daring.<br /><br />&quot;and in the book The Shadow RisingWhen Jasin Natael is singing a song about a battle at a river and how the enemy of Manetheren had mercy on the defeated Manetherenites, . Mat remembers himself, as the king's advisor, being killed by that foe's treachery; and then he remembers himself, somebody else, seeing that foe, older and grayer, being killed in another battle somewhere else. [TSR: 37, Imre Stand, 424-425]. &quot;(Don Harlow, Joe Shaw, Pam Korda, Leigh Butler]<br />So it's very doubtful that Mat was Aemon, or any other king of Manetheren. <br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">The only owner of a color shifting screen name,Heron-marked Note board, and horn of the message board! <br /> <br />Eat,drink, and be merry for tomorrow we shall die  <br /> <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-07-21 01:49:12
subject: <b>OMG you have got to be kidding me</b>
body:
to Mith<br />he gets his accents from the people he has memories of.  these are not his past lives just memories cramed into his head to fill in the holes.<br /><br />to Pinn Sedai<br />Pay attention to the books when you read them, try rereading EotW again. (OMG)<br /><br />to Reckened_it<br />perhaps but some of these memories were befor he went into the doorway, so NO<br /><br />to Call me Tim<br />&quot;He remembers being on both sides of the same battle in one case&quot;<br />Yes i was going to point this out also, i wondered if anyone was going to memtion that, cough Columbo cough <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />to Lodlom<br />well Rand doesnt exactly have two souls, but he has 2 personalities, maybe 3, living in the same body without being twisted by the DO<br /><br />to Two Moons<br />this could also prove that he was the King and was reborn where he died<br /><br />to Ein<br />It was a reference to the queen, and if the queen was well loved by the people it would make sense for them to fight for her, but if your theory was correct, IT IS A SOLIDERS JOB TO FIGHT FOR HIS KING<br /><br />to Lady Laurita the Tairen<br />BAHH these memories came befor he went through the doorway so you point is very very MOOT<br /><br />to Aiglosreforged<br />OHHH good point, thumbs up.<br /><br />to The Dragon Bloody Reborn<br />perhaps, but remember this is just after he got his &quot;memories&quot; and this could also be taken as one of his first memories since he was just thinking about it and was not under much stress and it has already been established that memories for a past life come only during times of high stress.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">There can be only one, may it be <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/uno.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-10-17 07:59:23
subject: <b>Since nobody else bothered, here are the facts.</b>
body:
I'm going to take the time to give the friggin facts that nobody else is bothering with, and hopefully save others from putting up with the same BS that's given on both sides. <br /><br />The story of Aemon<br />(tEotW, p 131-135)<br />&gt; full name was Aemon al Caar al Thorin (bravest man)<br />&gt; Eldrene ay Ellan ay Carlan was his Queen (fairest woman)<br />&gt; Eldrene was known as the Rose of the Sun<br />&gt; banner of Manetheren was the Red Eagle<br />&gt; the men of Maneteren were on the fields of Bekkar when they heard of the Trolloc attack on their homeland. They arrived with backs to Tarendrelle to meet the Trollocs<br />&gt; Aemon sent out messengers for aid; it was to come in three days<br />&gt; fought for ten days, when at last Aemon &quot;knew the bitter taste of betrayal&quot;<br />&gt; Aemon crossed the Tarendrelle and destroyed the bridges behind him, and warned his people to flee<br />&gt; from the city, Eldrene organized the flight of her people into the forests and mountains<br />&gt; in the Mountains, Eldrene felt Aemon die, then, heartbroken, she drew on the One Power and destroyed the remainder Trollocs as well as herself<br /><br />Mat's Old Blood<br />&gt; &quot;Carai an Caldazar! Carai an Ellisande! Al Ellisande!&quot; means &quot;For the honor of the Red Eagle! For the honor of the Rose of the Sun! The Rose of the Sun!&quot;<br />&gt; &quot;Carai an Caladazar! Carai an Ellisande! Al Ellisande! Mordero daghain pas duente cuebiyar! Al Ellisande!&quot; which means &quot;For the honor of the Red Eagle! For the honor of the Rose of Sun! For the Rose of the Sun! Death holds not fear within my heart! The Rose of the Sun!&quot;<br />&gt; &quot;Muad'drin tia dar allende caba'drin rhadiem! Lost Valdar Cuebiyari! Los! Carai an Caldazar! Al Caldazar!&quot;<br />&gt; &quot;Mia ayende, Aes Sedai! Caballein misain ye! Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye! Mia ayende!&quot; which translates to &quot;Release me, Aes Sedai! I am a free man! I am no Aes Sedai meat! Release me!&quot;<br />&gt; Memory: He watches &quot;pennants and banners of towns and cities and minor Houses&quot; and soldiers fighting Trollocs. &quot;He was known as a gambler; it was time to toss the dice.&quot; Bannerman rode beside him, &quot;the Red Eagle banner flapping over his head.&quot;<br />&gt; &quot;The ancient warcry of Manetheren, and the warcry of its last king. Eldrene was called the Rose of the Sun. The blood of Arad's line is still strong in the Two Rivers. The Old Blood still sings.&quot;<br /><br />Memory of &quot;Advising Aemon&quot;<br />(tSR, p 610-611)<br />&gt; An old song; of Manetheren, oddly enough, and war before the Trolloc Wars.<br />&gt; Villainous Aedomon led the Saferi down on unsuspecting Manetheren, pillaging and burning, driving all before them until KING BUIRYN [not Aemon!] gathered Manetheren's strength, and the men of Manetheren met the Saferi at Midean's Ford, holding, though heavily outnumbered, through three days of unrelenting battle, while the river ran red and vultures blackened the sky. On the third day, numbers dwindling, hope fading, Buiryn and his men fought their way across the ford in a desperate sortie, driving deep into Aedomon himself. But forces too great to overpower swept in around them, trapping them, driving them ever in on themselves. Surrounding their king and the Red Eagle banner, they fought on, refusing surrender even when their doom became clear.<br />&gt; ...courage touched even Aedomon's heart, and how at last he allowed the remnant to go free, turning his army back to Safer in honor of them.<br />&gt; [Mat] remembered counselling BUIRYN [again, NOT AEMON!] not to accept the offer, being told in return that the smallest chance was better than none. Aedomon, GLOSSY BLACK BEARD hanging below the steel mesh that veiled his face, drew his spearmen back, waited until they were strung out and nearly to the ford before the hidden archers rose and the cavalry charged in.<br />&gt; His last memory at the ford was trying to keep his feet, waist deep in the river with three arrows in him, bu there was something later, a fragment. Seeing Aedomon, GRAY-BEARDED [so obviously many years have passed] now, go down in a sharp fight in a forest, toppling from his rearing horse, the spear in his back put there by an unarmored, beardless boy.<br /><br />Mat's memories after Rhuidean<br />(various interviews with Robert Jordan)<br />&gt; [question] You stated in another interview that Mat's memories came from adventurers who traveled through the ter'angreal. However several of Mat's memories end with the adventurer dying. Since adventurers probably didn't go through the ter'angreal after they died, how could the 'finns have obtained these memories? [answer] A good question. I was wondering when someone would ask that. I expected it as soon as Mat started revealing those old memories. At least a partial answer will be coming up in the next main sequence book, so I guess you could say this is a RAFO. But I will say that if I said those adventurers all entered through the two ter'angreal, I misspoke. A good many entered through the Tower of Ghenjei, which was more widely known in earlier years, if never exactly a household name.<br />&gt; [question] If Mat only has memories from around the Trolloc wars how does he know how to use it? [answer] Mat does not have memories only from the trolloc wars. Mat's memories extend all the way into the time of Artur Hawkwing 1000 years later. <br />&gt; [question] What exactly are Mats memories, are they from his ancestors, as they all seem to be connected to Manetheren?? [answer] Mat's memories are NOT from his ancestors. He said &quot;I want to have the holes in [my] head filled&quot; but he did not specify exactly what he wanted them filled with and so he received scraps and bits and pieces of memories stolen from other men. <br />&gt; [question] Are all of Mat's memories from his past lives? [answer] No, Mat's &quot;old&quot; memories are not from his past lives at all. The &quot;sickness&quot; he got from the Shadar Logoth dagger resulted in holes in his memory. He found whole stretches of his life that seemed to be missing. When he passed through the &quot;doorframe&quot; ter'angreal in Rhuidean, one of the things he said - not knowing that the rules here were different than in the other ter'angreal he had used - was that he wanted the holes in his memory filled up, meaning that he wanted to recover his own memories. In this place, however, it was not a matter of asking questions and receiving answers, but of striking bargains for what you want. What he received for that particular demand was memories gathered by the people on that side of the ter'angreal, memories from many men, all long dead, from many cultures. And since not everyone passing by has the nerve to journey through a ter'angreal to some other world, the memories he receieved were those of adventurers and soldiers and men of daring.<br />&gt; &quot;There is no mention of Mat having memories of being two different people at the same time. A common misconception is that the sequence of memories described above in [TSR: 37, Imre Stand, 424-425] indicates that Mat has memories of being two different people in the same battle. This is not the case! What is actually going on is that these are two different guys, at different times. In the earlier memory, Mat is an advisor to a king, and is killed through the treachery of the enemy. In the later memory, Mat recalls seeing that same enemy, then older and grayer, die in another battle someplace else. There is enough time between the two incidents for the enemy to age considerably, and thus obviously could not have taken place in the same battle.&quot; -- 2.1.5 Don Harlow, Joe Shaw, Pam Korda, Leigh Butler<br />&gt; &#8220;I have no intention of marrying. And I have no intention of dying, either, whether I am supposed to live again or not. I walk around with holes in my memory, holes in my life, and you stare at me like idiots. If I had my way, I would want those holes filled, but at least answers to my questions might fill some in my future. You have to answer--!&#8221;


created: 2005-06-17 19:06:10
subject: <b>Three things wrong with this theory</b>
body:
(yes, I know at least one of these is a reprint)<br /><br />a)&quot;No aes sedai meat...&quot; As others have said, why would he say this when his wife was Aes Sedai (or at least a strong channeler, as I don't think they ever actually confirm that she was tower)<br /><br />b)King, no, GENERAL, yes.  Who commands the Queens guards, the Companions, or the Defenders? Morgase, the King of Illian, the High Lords? NO, it's Gareth Bryn, etc.<br />Mat is maybe the top military, uh, dude, of Manetheren reborn, but not the king.<br /><br />C (My main point, really)) &quot;Al Ellisande&quot;- &quot;For Me&quot;??  Why would Mat shout that if HE was Aemon?  It's the cry of aemon's troops FOR the king, not of the king itself (Unless he was full of himself, which he certainly doesn't seem to have been)<br /><br />That's all.  Ok, now you can flame me <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" />


created: 2005-12-26 18:08:41
subject: <b>I don't think this has been mentioned yet....</b>
body:
on page 265 of tEotW mat shouts <br /><br />&quot;Carai an Caldazar! Carai an Ellisande! Al Essisande!&quot;<br /><br />In then looking at page 787 in the glossary of the same book we find the explanation of each of these phrases<br /><br />&quot;Carai an Caldazar&quot; <br />which means &quot;for the honor of the red eagle&quot; <br />it goes on to say it is the ancient battle cry of Manetheren<br /><br />&quot;Carai an Ellisande&quot;<br />which means &quot;for the honor of the Rose of the Sun&quot;<br />it goes on to say it was the battle cry of the last king of manetheren.<br /><br />mat's battle cry was not that of a common manetheren soldier


created: 2007-03-18 12:04:03
subject: <b>Maybe</b>
body:
Aemon's queen, Eldrene was and Aes Sedai, in other words a channeler and Tuon also can channel.....<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Alea iacta est<br /><br />Dovie'andi se tovya sagain</font><p></p>


created: 2007-05-17 15:59:32
subject: <b>Mat's memories</b>
body:
Mat notices that his memories do not include any childhood, which means that they were implanted and not from his own reincarnations.


created: 2007-06-20 17:48:27
subject: <b>a bit more</b>
body:
also Aemon's wife was known as the Rose of the sun now if he was only the heir to the throne i doubt that he would use Aemons personal war cry.<br />in his first memory he remembers commanding the heart guard now if he wasn't Aemon himself then at least he would have been either a very high ranking/senior officer or a member of the royal family. but then if you think about it if he was a member of the royal family and a male then it would make sense  for him to be at another part of the battle line so to spread the royal presence throughout the army to boost moral


created: 2007-09-10 23:05:53
subject: <b>I seem to remember</b>
body:
Didn't Mat have a memory at some time (When Asmodean was telling his story in the waste I think) about talking to Aemon?


created: 2007-10-29 13:16:56
subject: <b>Way to many comments...</b>
body:
Let me start by saying i just spent the last half hour reading every single bloody post...bloody and ashes to you freaking all.<br />that being said before reading any of this i kinda thnought he was Aemon reborn, and looking up, most of the things that are against it are either meaningless, are misquoted or are irrelavent( Most of the RJ quotes against it are refering to memories filled in by Ellfin. and RJ did say that they wernt from his ANCESTORS. a reincarnation and an ancestor is NOT the same thing.) <br />next while there is considerable circumstantial evidence that he could be, and i do think he is, there is no solid proof that he is. of course absense of proof isnt proof of absense as the saying goes, but with so many clues that he could be, and none at all NONE that say he isnt, its hard not to believe...<br />and its not really a connection but...<br /> thier prospective wives, Tuon and Eldrene are known respectively as The Daughter of the nine moons and the Rose of the sun.<br /><br />Mat and Aemon have interesting Contrasts and similarites<br /><br />Both are known as great leaders.<br /><br />One of the most striking reason i always suspected it was mats quotes, the quotes he used well BEFORE the Ellfin or Alfenn, and i think, please dont quote me on this, just BEFORE getting the dagger, which would eliminate any link there, he first shouted this as they were driven into Shadar Logoth by trollocs in eye of the world (Chpt 1<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />&quot;Carai an Caladazar! Carai an Ellisande! Al Ellisande! Mordero daghain pas duente cuebiyar! Al Ellisande!&quot; <br />&quot;For the honor of the Red Eagle! For the honor of the Rose of Sun! For the Rose of the Sun! Death holds not fear within my heart! The Rose of the Sun!&quot;<br /><br />now where would such a phrase come from if not a past life of some sort, it sounds, from deductive reasoning that it was a shout of a man going into battle to die.<br /> when Moiraine explains what it meant and who it was linked to that narrowed it down, in all likely hood, to the last stand of King Aemon, and likely the last fateful charge of the King and his Honor Guard, Which honestly speaking could mean a good number of men. But taking a bit of licence, just a bit, what other men have been mentioned of that battle other than Aemon, not conclusive proof, but definately a decent point. and given the lack of proof against it that is why i always thought Mat was Aemon reborn. <br /><br />An interesting thought though, it had been hundreds of years between Aemon and Mat, well know heros( like Birgitte) had been woven in and out for generations without memories of past lives, it does stand to reason that Aemons actions that day earned him a place in  Tel'aran'rhiod, the WoT Equivilant of Norse Valhalla. if it did, whose to say he hadnt been reborn in other bodies between him and Mat and some memories, such as the dislike of Aes Sedai could have stemmed from those lives not Aemon's. Again they are not Ancestors but the same soul rewoven through the threads of time..just a thought...


created: 2007-10-30 02:49:10
subject: <b>One last thing</b>
body:
on the topic of mat having memories of talking to Aemon..even if he did have them, which im not really sure, the gaps in his memories could have been filled by people who knew Aemon, its not impossible is it? but then im trying to remember just how far back his memories went. maybe atleast lol


created: 2008-09-21 23:42:08
subject: <b>orders</b>
body:
your forgetting that in combat even low ranking solders give orders just to ppl only lower in rank than them so it is possible that Mat is just a middling general in that first memory b4 he went to the waste and got stuffed w/ memories.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I may be crazy but im still more---- OHH SHINY PENNY!<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Fear the ninja smiley<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ninja.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />ohhh pretty fire..Most not touch....OUCH IT BURNS!<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-29 17:48:39
subject: <b>Logain</b>
body:
Can't Logain see Ta'veren too? I know he saw something about Rand when he was brought to Caemlyn that made him laugh.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-04-29 18:37:56
subject: <b>Nature of Ogier?</b>
body:
Could it be that Ogier in general can do or see things which normally would require the One Power? We know that they can make Sung Wood, something that's a specifically Ogier Talent. From tGH we know also that at least some of them can delve into people's souls, since they knew of Trayal's state even before any Aes Sedai laid hands on him (tGH, Among the Elders). Perhaps seeing ta'veren is another one of those things some Ogier can do simply because of the nature of Ogier.<br /><br />An interesting theory though...though I don't really know if it'll be important in the future of the series or not<br /><br />Peace<br />--Memnoch <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" /> Sedai<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Memnoch Sedai<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" /> Devish Green <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /> Proud bonder of Vahn de Mac <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /><br />She who is very good <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /> At being very bad <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /><br />Member of the <font color="#0000FF">English</font> <font color="#FF0000">Quisition</font><br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/13777.gif" /> Sax is life....the rest is just details <img src="images/personalsmilies/13777.gif" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-29 18:37:57
subject: <b>okay</b>
body:
I always thought that this was obvious.  I never thought this was even an issue.  Funny that this gets posted.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-29 18:47:09
subject: <b>Umm...I dunno</b>
body:
I don't know if you can really apply the Ogier quote to this as a support. I mean, Loil (sp?) said that he could feel that Rand was Ta'vern in the first book right after he met him. I think that they may be more sensitive to the feeling of someone being a T than humans are. I don't really think Loil can see T, but he did mention that Rand was T before he even spoke to anyone else. Whether or not that is because he is just intuitive or not I don't know, but I think that its just that Ogier are sensitive to things like that.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /> True Power is knowing that you can, but you don't. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-red.gif" border="0" /> -Deathbone1 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-green.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Current rank in Wse PTS: 164 out of top 1000 (7/8/03)<br />We are men of action. Lies do not become us.<br />Life finds a way.<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-29 19:40:33
subject: <b>Logain</b>
body:
Yes, I remember that too. Someone said he can see ta'veren. I remember. You're right. <br />But do Ogier even channel at all? Is it possible, I mean. Um. One point I can make in agreement with you is that Perrin is a Dreamer and he certainly can't channel, and since Dreaming is a Talent, then that leads us to believe that some Talents do not require channeling and so seeing Ta'veren might not either. :-D <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-04-29 20:28:23
subject: <b>Logain 2</b>
body:
It doesn't say that Logain can see ta'veren only that he saw a man up on a wall that he knew would shake the world and thats what he thought was funny. <br />Or something like that.


created: 2002-04-29 22:22:41
subject: <b>Hmm... Reference to another theory</b>
body:
I remember reading another theory about the nature of Ogier and how they work with the Power w/o really *working* with the Power (if that makes any sense). Maybe the reason that the Ogier Elder saw that Rand's ta'veren has to do with that. <br /><br />Sorry, I can't remember what theory or who wrote it but if you're really interested, look for it. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sleepy.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">~~~Nita Almelia~~~<br /><br />&quot;If you want to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first create the universe.&quot; - Carl Sagan</font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-30 08:59:19
subject: <b>Talents and channeling</b>
body:
I think that there are many Talents that do not depend on channeling. Dreaming for example. Min's viewing is a Talent. Ogier Treesinging is a Talent, and possibly the Aiel have the potential to have Talents for Singing. <br />Over the centuries, Aes Sedai have gradually come to assume that you have to channel to have Talents. This is not true.<br /><br />In this case, however, I think that this is purely the Ogier ablitiy to sense flow of the Pattern. Niether Loial nor Alar saw Rand glow, they just <i>felt</i> something.<br /><br />On the other hand, this could be just the difference between human and Ogier. When Logain saw Rand in Caemlyn, this could have been a Fortelling or maybe just the way men sense Ta'veren. <br />It's not unreasonable to assume that men and women experience Talents differently, even if channelers and nonchannelers show no difference. Take the Wise One Dreamers. Some can channel some can't, but it's the same ability. Then there's Perrin. Maybe all male Dreamers, channelers or not, are Wolfbrothers.<br /><br />Well thats all I have to say.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> &quot;Those the gods wish to destroy, they first make mad&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> &quot;I would not mind you in my head, if you were not so clearly mad. -Lews Therin Telamon&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-30 10:03:11
subject: <b>Logain</b>
body:
The quote concerning Logain was not to do with Tav'eran. He was laughing because there he was chained up and shielded when there was a boy sitting on the palace walls who was much stronger at channeling than he was. Thats why he was laughing.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Pandora's Box - The Ultraviolet Catastrophe</font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-30 10:30:45
subject: <b>Logain</b>
body:
We can say that Logain can in fact see Ta'veren because when he talks to Nynaeve he describes seeing a young man who was surrounded by light. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-04-30 14:08:04
subject: <b>Also . . . .</b>
body:
Sparrahawk - men aren't able to sense the ability to channel in men - even at close range.<br /><br />The Aiel Wise Ones pretty much accept it as a given that there are &quot;Talents&quot; that have nothing to do with channeling, and I think they're right.  Dreaming is the best example, but witness their ready acceptance of Min's viewings, and Perrin's wolf thing.<br /><br />I'm not sure Ogier see a &quot;glow&quot;, but I think it's fairly obvious that they're more sensitive to the flow of the pattern than humans.  Being a completely different species, one would not expect them to exhibit similar abilities as humans.


created: 2002-04-30 21:22:41
subject: <b>The Quote</b>
body:
&quot;You know, I saw a man once who will cause more trouble then I ever did. Maybe it was the Dragon Reborn; i don't know. It was when they took me through Caemlyn after I was captured. he was far away, but I saw a... a glow, and I knew he'd shake the worl. Caged as I was, I couldn't help laughing.&quot; This is Logain speaking to Nynaeve after she healed him in LoC, To Heal Again. Many people, including me, took the glow Logain sees to mean Logain can see ta'veren. Just to clear up confusion.<br /><br />By the way, this just impresses me more with RJ. To know Logains place way back in the EoTW, and to through something as tiny as that in, way back when, is... impressive. Does he have rooms full of notes like this or does it all fit in his head.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Junius Maltby Lives!</font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-01 23:34:44
subject:
<b>Resisting urge to shake gaidin peer  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" /></b>

body:
Yes, Loial is not Logain.  We've gotten that far.  Both of them recognized that Rand was ta'veren.  Loial felt it. Logain knew by looking at him.  Read the references prior to posting, as in &quot;It is better to be thought a fool that to open one's mouth and remove all doubt.&quot;<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Reality is not what it used to be. <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-02 02:21:57
subject: <b>Something to add...</b>
body:
Wasn't it said at some point that Aurther Hawkwing was such a strong Tara'van that you could feel it if you were in the same room with him.  I beleve it goes on to say that Rand is even stronger.  So if this is true, then perhaps that is what the ogre elder was saying. He specifially mentions feeling it, instead of seeing it. We know that some of the Sea Folk can feel when they are negotiating with the Tara'ven, so I don't think we can prove that the abibility to SEE the Tara'ven is not limited to people that can channel.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">BORDERLANDER<br /><br />TAIM WAS NEVER DEMANDRED<br />&quot;All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident.&quot; <br />- Arthur Schopenhauer <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-03 23:18:49
subject: <b>Talents Aren't Limited To Channelers</b>
body:
Take Dreamwalking for instance, it is a talent, and Wise Ones that cannot channel can Dreamwalk. There have been other instances as well, so I agree w/ your theory. Some non-channelers may have this Talent.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Eilonwy Sedai <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Aes Sedai of the Blue Green Ajah<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" /> Accomplished Dreamwalker <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> Author to Be <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> Member of Absurdity Anonymous <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> Member of English Quisition <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-04 00:51:19
subject: <b>oh my god, it's so easy..</b>
body:
didnt anyone think.. that maybe they are more then 1 way to see/feel ta'veren..<br /><br />like for ppl who can use the one power, they see a glow around that person.. like siuan, nicola and logain.. maybe more, i dont know<br /><br />and for others, like ogiers they can feel it..<br /><br />or maybe it way to simple, i dont know :/


created: 2002-05-08 12:50:33
subject: <b>Ogier are not human</b>
body:
An ogier can do a lot of things that a human cant, treesing for example, feel ta'veren and i think that somewhere in the books it says that they scouted souls of ogier who came out of the roads (or whatever you say in english) and saw nothing but desert.<br /><br />Can humans do that?? maybe but ogier aren't humans, maybe that is just the way channeling manifests in a ogier, treesinging or some other ogier specific talent?


created: 2002-09-20 05:45:12
subject: <b>Shielded</b>
body:
Logain was shielded when he saw Rand in Camelyn. Doesn't this imply that channeling is not a requirement for having the talent of sensing ta'veren(since channeling isn't needed)? (thinking out loud)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> I'm Jacks complete lack of suprise <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-11-07 21:47:36
subject: <b>it's a matter of looking</b>
body:
over the years, both channelling and talents have become harder to find. channelling is the easiest one to find, because others can sense it. because of this, the only 'talented' people they know about can also channel. this brings up the idea that to have a talent you have to be able to channel. it's not that there aren't talented non-channelers out there, it's just that they can't find them.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> keeper of the truth <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" />reader of all things bookish <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> keeper of the truth <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> reader of all things bookish <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br />to those gone, lest we forget.<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-06-14 22:32:11
subject: <b>Hmm...</b>
body:
To the person who said that Logain being shielded meant that he couldn't channel..<br /><br />You can still see flows/feel flows being woven when you are shielded, and you can still Dream (Egwene in the Stone of Tear) when shielded, so you could probably See Ta'veren as well. It's not like being severed.


created: 2005-06-18 01:46:37
subject: <b>i have to agree but...</b>
body:
Some things are wrong. Logain can also see taveren. Loial who doesn't have the talent knows Rand is taveren without seeing it.


created: 2005-09-05 22:54:07
subject: <b>OGIER CAN&quot;T FLIPPIN CHANNEL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!</b>
body:
but the quote from Alar seems to imply that they can ALL sense Ta'veren, if only weakly.<br />some talents seem to require the ABILITY to channel while others dont (active vs. passive: some the Talented one does something, some the just look)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>It's not apples and oranges, but no one paying attention could compare these apples without noticing: <br />(a) one is 12 times bigger and <br />(b) both of them are rutabagas.</i></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-02 04:23:39
subject: <b>WHY!!!</b>
body:
WTH is this accepted as a theory...it's like stating rand can channel...or the aiel kill...anyone that didn't get the idea about the oneness and fain the first time they read the books shouldn't be reading wheel of time.


created: 2002-05-02 05:49:56
subject: <b>thats right</b>
body:
when rand stole the chest with the shadar logoth knife and horn of valere from fains camp, he was in the void, and fain couldnt sense him, so i figured it out at that time, the first time i read the series through...some years ago


created: 2002-05-02 08:35:47
subject: <b>A couple things</b>
body:
Good theory, though like the others, I thought this was common knowledge.<br /><br />About a couple things you said though. First off, I think Selene(Lanfear) constantly wanting Rand to assume the Oneness was so that he would be in more contact with saidin.<br /><br />Also, I really see no connection between this theory and Gholams.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-05-02 08:57:07
subject: <b>Far Madding</b>
body:
how about when rand faced fain in far madding? fain just jumped out of the shadows at rand, and rand must have been in the void handling a sword and all. i cant remember the exact details and dont have the books on hand but.....whatever.  Im actually doing the IB exams now and am using the flame and the void myself!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Master of Swords<br />Composer of Metal<br />Drinker of Alcohol<br />Guardian of the Light<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-02 11:10:42
subject: <b>about Far Madding</b>
body:
I think Fain was just expecting the attack so he really didn't have to know exactly where Rand was. Rand probably didn't hold the void the whole time he headed for the shop, just when he was preparing to fight, so Fain probably knew about when to expect him also.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-05-02 11:31:57
subject: <b>Far Madding</b>
body:
Fain is the one who left the note to bait Rand. He was expecting him to show up!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Why on earth would anybody want to kidnap a groundhog?&quot;<br /><br />&quot;I can think of a few reasons, the pervert!&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-02 11:46:42
subject: <b>Thank you Captian Obvious.....</b>
body:
I believe that this theory has stated one of the most obvious things in  the books that is not actually stated.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I am cool, are you? <br /><br />The kicker of the seals <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <br />The flame that burned down Tar Valon <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />My arse is the Amyrlin Seat</font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-02 12:15:54
subject: <b>I never really thought about it</b>
body:
It makes sense and just mentioning it, I can say that I've known it all along, though not consiously. I just never really thought about it too much. Oh well, I like the theory, and sometimes the obvious must be pointed out to those of us in the darkness<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /> True Power is knowing that you can, but you don't. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-red.gif" border="0" /> -Deathbone1 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-green.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Current rank in Wse PTS: 164 out of top 1000 (7/8/03)<br />We are men of action. Lies do not become us.<br />Life finds a way.<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-02 12:24:50
subject: <b>Heh</b>
body:
obviously, people here are taking a jab back at Columbo by stating that this is obvious. Which is fair <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> I personally never thought of it, but then, I wasn't paying close enough attention to Fain's Rand-seeking ability. I like the theory, it will give me yet another thing to look for as I go though my third reading, which I just started.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Why on earth would anybody want to kidnap a groundhog?&quot;<br /><br />&quot;I can think of a few reasons, the pervert!&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-02 13:24:12
subject: <b>I personally love this theory and...</b>
body:
would rather read and discuss this than to waste my time with some of the garbage that's been coming up latley, but I wont mention and titles or names <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Well, my comment is on the connection to the gholam, which was questioned above. I personally always thought that that was the way that one could hide from the gholam. After all, Lanfear knows about it which means that the other female forsaken probably do, too, and add that to Graendal's near death experience, we could have a winner. After all, if Graendal was already a DF at the time, then why would she have been hunted? No, I think that the gholam was after her either before she turned, or she used the TP to escape, but I dont think that would work on the Gholam, personally. <br /><br />After all, the gholam senses the TP in PoD, so why do we just assume that it can be hurt by it? No, I think that the Void, or Oneness, was how they escaped it. Don't you think that the dark would have sent one against LTT? How did he escape? I'm betting on the Void.<br /><br />Hopefully that sparks some discussion, as I think that was what he wanted to discuss by putting this up. Otherwise, why put it in?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-02 14:13:12
subject: <b>the void and the source</b>
body:
mrhead66, The void can be used by other people then channelers. If you remember back to tEotW, it was Tam, Rand's father, that doesn't have the ability to channel, that taught him the Void. The Void, or Oneness, is used by people who wants to have peek concentration and tune out personal feelings whether physical or emotional.<br /><br />Far Madding doesn't stop people from entering the void, just embracing the One Power and sensing the True Source.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Why on earth would anybody want to kidnap a groundhog?&quot;<br /><br />&quot;I can think of a few reasons, the pervert!&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-02 15:00:43
subject: <b>maybey</b>
body:
it was the taint that dulled Fain's sense of rand. Both the taint and Fain's rand sense were caused by the Dark One<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /> Where's that stupid sphinx when you need him? Here boy i'v got a riddle for ya! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perplexed.gif" border="0" /> Sodomy non sapiens<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perplexed.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /> Priest of an Unknown Goddess <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-02 15:33:01
subject: <b>Obvious......</b>
body:
When putting this on paper I realised it would be obvious to some.  I'm glad to see that this is new for some as well.  It hadn't been mentioned anywhere I'd seen and thought it might spark something greater.  Thanks for the feedback good and bad.  <br /><br />Vashti have you no comments on this?<br /><br />Columbo is on the case.<br /><br />P.S.  I guess it is probably obvious as well to everyone that Thom Merrilon killed the king of Cairhien ( Galladrian )not sure on spelling here.  Way back in book Two.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-02 17:27:36
subject: <b>Columbo</b>
body:
Very well done!  I've read the series 4 times and never connected the Fain and the Void, well done! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" />=  I was aware of an ability but never imagined that the Void could block Fain out.  This is unreal and raises some questions as to how this will come into play later in the series.  I'm at work and don't have the books in front of me, so bare with me.  If as you say is true and Lanfear new of this ability.  Then is it not possible that Rand will become aware of this.  And if Rand becomes aware of this little trick then will it play a important role as we near the conclusion.  Does this not eliminate Fain as a threat.  I mean if Rand becomes aware of his unknown ability this will give him a huge advantage over Fain.  Really if Fain doesn't have the awareness of Rands presence what does he have?  Really nothing.  Like I know he is still a threat but how much?  As to Thom killing the king I picked that up right away!  How did he get away with it?  I always saw him playig for the King as he did at Lord Barthanes party and then taking the kings life in the night after everyone was boozed up and participating in orgies.  If you have a theory please share!!!  When I return to my humble adoud in the country I am going to grab a beer and start a fire and look into this fain business.  Great stuff Columbo!  I liky alot!  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/disapprove.gif" border="0" />=<br /><br />In my minds eye I see Rand surrounded by the Void sneaking up behind that little weasel and cutting his throat.


created: 2002-05-02 17:37:05
subject: <b>Well, I must be a bigger fool than I thought...</b>
body:
Hmmm...I'm the FAQ editor and I never noticed this before. Obviously Roonas didn't either. Rather than knock this theory, I'd rather see people create theories as well thought out as this one. You should really see half the stuff that is submitted...<br /><br />And as for obvious. It's obvious to some people that Taim is not Demandred, obvious that Greandal killed Asmodean and many other things besides.<br /><br />And you'll notice that this theory has 4% against it. 1 in 25 seem to disagree.<br /><br />Shame on you people <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="blue"><img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /> <b>PROUDLY CELEBRATING 10 YEARS OF WOTMANIA!</b></font> <img src="images/personalsmilies/2878.gif" /><br /><br /><font color="purple"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <b>FAQ and WoT Admin</b></font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><font color="gray"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> <b>Part-time Philosopher of the Wheel</b> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /></font></font><p><a href="/wotmessageboard2showmessage.asp?MessageID=107993" target="_blank">New WoT quizzes!</a></p><p></p>


created: 2002-05-02 17:44:04
subject: <b>Thanks</b>
body:
Thanks Moridin 2000 and Marboro Man!  <br /><br />Speaking of the Mandrid.  Randwashere,  Green Gaidin and I are starting in on the Demandred enigma.  Hopefully we will have something good for you all sometime soon.<br /><br />Columbo is on the case!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-02 19:02:05
subject: <b>Good Job</b>
body:
You and Matrimony Cauthon are really lightin it up with these well written theories.  It's a bar for the rest of use to measure up to!  Thanks for such a good job and for making WoT a bit more interesting.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Guy who likes to play basketball and wants sports in Randland other than sha'je <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br />Master player of stones <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gimli.gif" border="0" /><br />Generally a good guy <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-02 19:21:24
subject: <b>Don't worry about those goofs, Columbo.</b>
body:
They're just mad because you told them to cut the crap with their no-sense theories and responses. <br /><br />Before you and I lit up Vashti and co. that one time, the typical BB response list was like this:<br /><br />&quot;WOW! Great Theory! I loved it!&quot;<br /><br />&quot;Wow. I really like this! It got me thinking!&quot;<br /><br />&quot;Hey, let me kiss you butt!&quot;<br /><br />etc. etc.<br /><br />You know what I mean, and I have to say that people here on this Blackboard are just here to flame you and not to respond to you with anything meaningful (except for the all-knowing FAQ legend Moridin 2000, and a few others). After all, I posed, like, 10 post ago about the DO sending Gholam after LTT (he must have) and how he escaped. Notice no one said anything about that? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Weird.<br /><br />Anyway, good job, and lets get cracking on Thom. Noteboard me already!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-02 22:26:07
subject: <b>About the Gholam</b>
body:
I don't recall it ever being said that gholam have the Fainlike ability to find or sense a person. Maybe I missed it, I somehow missed the Void/fain business, but I really don't remember it. The only option a channeler has when facing a gholam is to pop open a gateway and dive on through, thats the way I see LTT getting away.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Junius Maltby Lives!</font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-02 22:31:05
subject: <b>I didn't have anythign insightful to add</b>
body:
but I did try to shoot down some nonsense that was getting posted.<br /><br />I too think that we have had a bulk of theories lately that are getting out of hand. Remember that one about genetic engineering in the AoL? LOL!<br /><br />Sense I read that I found like 5 or 6 places where they mentioned somebody getting sick or a plague or disease&#8230;. <br /><br />At least this theory deals with actual crap that is important to the books. <br /><br />Ok now I sound like an azz kisser...<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Why on earth would anybody want to kidnap a groundhog?&quot;<br /><br />&quot;I can think of a few reasons, the pervert!&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-02 23:36:49
subject: <b>Another Dimension</b>
body:
Excuse me if I'm wrong.<br /><br />But didn't Fain not feel Rand because he. Lioal and Selene were in another dimension (portal stones)???<br />


created: 2002-05-02 23:45:26
subject: <b>True</b>
body:
Rand, Loial, Hurin, and Selene were in the portal stone world for part of the book, but Fain admits that he lost track of Rand at times in Fal Dara, before they ever even saw a portal stone, so something else must block Fain's sense, right?<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-05-03 00:15:55
subject: <b>Great Theory</b>
body:
As has been said, it's obvious for some and not obvious for others.  I imagine it has to do with how people think and approach things.  I focus more on relationships and motivations, other focus on more tangible relations.<br /><br />Just because I think you're a twit doesn't mean I'll cut down a theory that is well thought-out and presented.  <br /><br />As for getting wiped out...still don't get it, do you guys?  Just because you jump up and down waving your arms saying, &quot;I'm right! I'm right! I'm right!&quot;  doesn't actually mean you ARE right.  Just more willing to scream.  I prefer dignity than saying 'nanner-nanner-boo-boo'<br /><br />If you note, you two seem to focus on what has already happened.  I tend to try to figure out what will come.  I won't say that either way is superior.  Mine is certain to be more erratic, of course, by its very nature.


created: 2002-05-03 00:28:36
subject: <b>heh</b>
body:
what was, what is, and what will be, may yet fall under the blackboard <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Why on earth would anybody want to kidnap a groundhog?&quot;<br /><br />&quot;I can think of a few reasons, the pervert!&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-03 00:33:42
subject: <b>Vashti...</b>
body:
Thanks!  I too try to determine what will happen next.  In posting this theory I was hoping it would spark some thought.  eg.  Will this ability play a role in books to come?  If you think it might why?  how?  I'm not interested in what has happened I'm interested in what has and how that will effect the outcome.  I think that if Rand becomes aware of this ability it will play a big part.  If Rand doesn't,  well it's help him unknowingly on a few occasions already.  Also I like trying to put together puzzles like who is the Mandrid,  or who really is Thom Merrilon? and what of his past?  In Thom we have someone who kills trollocs,  rushes Fades,  knowledge even a gleeman shouldn't posses,  master with daggars and someone who can kill a king ( Galladrian)  who is well protected and then get away unscathed.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-03 00:43:54
subject: <b>In my rereading...</b>
body:
The biggest WTF with Thom for me is the power rought blade flash when he chargers that Fade. I read an interview once where RJ said RAFO in regards to what that was all about. So it must be something. Sadly, I don't have anything more to add to it. Perhaps one of his daggers is power rought, then if so how did he get it? An RAFO line from the creator kinda makes it seem like there is more to it.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Why on earth would anybody want to kidnap a groundhog?&quot;<br /><br />&quot;I can think of a few reasons, the pervert!&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-03 00:48:11
subject: <b>Just to clarify something about the other dimension:</b>
body:
Rand was in the real world when he stole the dagger from Fain, and I'm pretty sure that he was with Ingtar when Columbo's first quote happened.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-03 01:18:00
subject: <b>good job</b>
body:
It wasn't obvious to me, and now that you've pointed it out... a light in the darkness. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> thanks.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="Plum">Gena Sedai</font></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-03 12:37:48
subject: <b>Windsor</b>
body:
I wondered the same about the flashes.  After review I noticed that the Fade was suprised enough that it didn't get its sword out before Thom reached him.  Thom had daggars in his hands but the Fade was unable to bring his sword to bare.  As soon as they collide then we see the blue flashes because of this I'm don't believe the blue flashes are a result of Thom possessing power wraught blades.  Someone had also suggested that Rand might had channelled.  This doesn't fit either because on ever other occasion after Rand had channeled in Eotw he became sick.  Rand doesn't become sick again until a day and a half after calling down the lightning when the darkfriends have Rand and Mat cornered in the inn.  Others had suggested the Whitebridge might be some kind of  Ter angreal.  I have found nothing to suggest this.  Also later we find that half the town has burnt to the ground.  Some had suggested that this is a result of Rand channeling.  I always thought that this was explained by Rand being such a strong Taveren.  I believe this will remain a mystery to all.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-03 12:41:00
subject: <b>I too thought this was pretty obvious</b>
body:
However the questions you raise at the end are not something I had thought about.  For the first question, I'm not sure that there is much more to it than allowing Rand to get the dagger.  It certainly hasn't helped him much since then, like in tPoD when Fain finds him in the fog.  Rand was certainly surrounded in the Void at that point and Fain was still able to find him.  For the second, I'm not sure that Lanfear had any idea that the Oneness would protect Rand from Fain's sense, I think it just has to do with her wanting him to channel.  However, if she did know then likely it comes from knowing what the DO did to Fain and she knew a way around it.  I really doubt that the Oneness is the way to avoid Gholam, otherwise it would be almost completely useless against male channelers who would surely assume the Void in preparation for channeling.<br /><br />Jim<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sir Jim<br />Lord of Minutia&#8482;<br />King of WoT MB Posts&#8482;<br /><br />Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-03 12:50:38
subject: <b>Back on topic...</b>
body:
Vashti I believe you have a good understanding of the books and that is why I challenged you!  <br /><br />Now that Rand has cleansed the taint from Saidin,  will Rand assume the Void more often?  If he does how does this affect Fain?  <br /><br />Fain has a need to kill Rand.  Part of this comes from his constant awareness of Rand.  If Rand assumes the void more now that the taint is cleansed from saidin,  will this allow Fain to persue what has also been shown to be very important to him.  Fain wants to cuddle up to a powerfull King or Queen.  We see this in Fains POV when approaching the high lord Turak ( book 2 ).  After Lord Turak dies we then see Fain cuddling up to Pedron Niall.  Pedron Niall dies and Fain seeks yet another.<br /><br />Vahsti let me know what you think.  If anyone has suggestions I would really like to hear them.<br /><br />Columbo is on the case.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-03 15:12:26
subject: <b>What gives?</b>
body:
Really people, why so many haters in the WOT. If it hasnt dawned on some of you already some people are just reading this series for the first time. <br /><br /> I've read this series twice already and didnt know Thom killed that king. I didnt even give it any thought. Now that i know it just makes Thom more of a bada*&amp;^ than he already is.  <br /><br />I Never put this much thought into the series (i just read the books because i enjoyed them and there was more than 1 book) until i came to this web site. I think each theory starts a small spark in someway. <br /><br />This is my 3 sense.  <br /><br />Why haven't the portal stones popped up after TGH and are there grolms with the Seanchan.  <br /><br />ashaman420<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">loyal soldier to rand<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br />asassinator of the shadow &amp; meddling AS<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bobbafett.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /> <br />I am skilled with 2 swords, but I will toast your butt with Saidin in a heartbeat<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/uno.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-03 19:14:15
subject: <b>The Nature of Evil</b>
body:
Actually, Columbo...<br /><br />I'm working on a theory regarding the nature of Evil and Power in DragonLand.  the basic premise is, is that the DO is NOT the equal of the Creator (else how would he be imprisoned? Plus, he has limitations).<br /><br />However, we know RJ loves equal opposites (roughly)...BUT...no reason the good of the creator, focused in one being, could not be balanced by a quantity of lesser evils (the DO, Mordeth, etc.).  <br /><br />And the Finns are a whoooooole other can o' worms, and seem to step outside the whole opposite concept


created: 2002-05-03 20:14:13
subject: <b>I agree...</b>
body:
The Creater is stronger than the DO.  I'm looking forward to your theory.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-05 14:54:05
subject: <b>Thanks mystery buddy.....</b>
body:
Thanks to my mystery fan who voted a couple thousand times against my theory.  Obviosly you are a Fain type individual that does work in secret.  I would like to here why you don't agree but I don't suppose I will.  Coward!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-05 16:54:50
subject: <b>I disagreed</b>
body:
Columbo - Four points.<br /><br />1 - I ain't the twit who voted a coupla thousand times, but I did vote twice against it (something that shouldn't be allowed by the person who built the site). Anyway, who has the patience to click that form more than a few times.<br /><br />2 - Like the handle. Columbo was cool.<br /><br />3 - While I agree with your interpretation of the Void and Fain's sensing of Rand (to me it was absolutely given away when Rand retrieved the dagger and horn. Shame on those who cannot read the lines, let alone in between the lines), I disagree that it will be effective against the gholem. The gholem is a OP creature and doesn't have a psychic sense like Fain does, that was setup by the DO's minions. I think the gholem will be killed by someone opening a gateway to a very inhospitable place (maybe Randland orbit or deep in the core of the planet) and throwing it through. Or maybe being sent to the Finns.<br /><br />That's why I disagreed with your theory. Excellent start, poor future application.<br /><br />4 - Also, if the Void was effective against the gholem, the AOL people would have discovered it and used it against them.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />   the Harvester of Mankind    <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />      the Thief of Years       <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />     the Slayer of Worlds      <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />     the Ultimate Reality      <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Blog - brucetheloon.blogspot.com</font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-06 00:09:09
subject: <b>Fair warning to Vashti and Columbo...</b>
body:
If Vashti, or anyone else posts on how the DO is not equal to the Creator, we're going to war, and that includes you Columbo. Just a litle fair warning:<br /><br />http://35.10.40.62/wotmania/blackboard.asp?TheoryID=792&amp;Category=RandlandPhilosophy<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /> ::::  http://35.10.40.62/wotmania/messageboardshowmessage.asp?MessageID=226813&amp;SubThreadID=226017<br /><br />It's been done to death Vashti so PLEASE don't waste your time.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-06 13:16:29
subject: <b>Might it block the Warder Bond?</b>
body:
Fain mentioned an awareness of another connected to Rand in LoC, after Alanna had bonded him.  With yet another bond, he must fit to be tied, but might Rand be able to mask the bond with the Void, somehow?  While Warders seem unable to, like Birgitte, they seem to get along prety well with their bond-holders, and Birgitte's bond is more closly tied to Elayne as they're both women.  Min couldn't mask the bond either, but she can't channel, so maybe, since Rand can channel, and Fain has something of a bond with him that he can hide, which makes Fain aware of the warder bond (just as Alanna was aware of Rand's second bonding), Rand might be able to mask the bond in a way that involves either a mental effort, like a sister masking the bond or Rand hiding from Fain, or possibly channeling.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-07 01:09:29
subject: <b>What makes you think....</b>
body:
I can see the logic behind the theory, but my main question is why it would work.   You seem to have made a common logical error, all your evidence could simply be circumstancial.  Also, Lanfear/Selene's advice may not have anything to do with it.  I doubt the DO would be in the habit of disclosing his screwups to his minions, so Lanfear may not have known about fain's Ta'veren sensing.  And you know, I really don't think Thom killed the king of Cairhein.  What would his motive be?   And you know what would be VERY funny?  If all this stuff that people are saying was obvious, and that others are idiots for not seeing it turned out not to be true.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Duriora Virtus<br /><br />If anyone can translate that into English, e-mail me, please.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-07 05:46:24
subject: <b>Thom did kill the King</b>
body:
His motive was that the king had his girlfriend killed in the Great Hunt. He all but admitted it to Mat when Mat found him in Tar Valon in the Dragon Reborn. He told Mat something along the lines of 'It's amazing how many problems killing a man can cause. Even when the man deserved killing.'<br /><br />There was nobody else he would have reason to kill.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />   the Harvester of Mankind    <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />      the Thief of Years       <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />     the Slayer of Worlds      <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />     the Ultimate Reality      <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Blog - brucetheloon.blogspot.com</font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-07 19:46:27
subject: <b>Re: Thom killing the king</b>
body:
Thom did kill the king, right after he said &quot;I'm only an old gleeman. Who could I possibly be dangerous to?&quot;<br />That's what makes the quote so funny! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />I love irony like that.<br />That's also why it's so funny when Rand says &quot;I'm not Aiel, Lord Barthanes, and I'm not of the royal line, either.&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> &quot;Those the gods wish to destroy, they first make mad&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> &quot;I would not mind you in my head, if you were not so clearly mad. -Lews Therin Telamon&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-07 19:53:37
subject: <b>When it comes crashing down and it hurts inside.....</b>
body:
duh, duh, duh, na, na....<br /><br />Ty! Ty! Ty! This won't hurt to bad as I have to make it quick.  Green Gaiden wheres the Red Ball?  Actually GG I don't have the time to Red Ball Ty.<br /><br />Ty unfortunayley I will have to paste your comments and then show you the truth.  The truth will hurt and its not funny at all!<br /><br />Ty you said:<br /><br />&quot;I can see the logic behind the theory, but my main question is why it would work. You seem to have made a common logical error, all your evidence could simply be circumstancial. Also, Lanfear/Selene's advice may not have anything to do with it. I doubt the DO would be in the habit of disclosing his screwups to his minions, so Lanfear may not have known about fain's Ta'veren sensing. And you know, I really don't think Thom killed the king of Cairhein. What would his motive be? And you know what would be VERY funny? If all this stuff that people are saying was obvious, and that others are idiots for not seeing it turned out not to be true.&quot;<br /><br />1. Ty can you really see the logic?  do you know the definition of Logic?<br />2.  Why would it work you say.  All I can say is that it's proven it works.  If you can't see the obvious thats okay.<br />3.  My evidense is circumstancial?  I think you better go back and reread my post because I will not take the time to present my evidense again.<br />4.  Maybe Lanfears advice doesn't have anything to do with it.  Ty you could be right .  Although given the time the advice was given to Rand I believe it does have something to do with it.  Thats why I added it to my post.<br />5.  Why does the DO have to tell Lanfear about the Void's effect on Fain's senses.  I don't think the DO is even aware of the effect Rand assuming the Void has on Fain's ability to sense Rand.  Heh Ty maybe Lanfear doesn't either and her comment was a coincidense.  <br />6.  Ty Fain doesn't have the ability to sense Taveren!  He does have the ability to sense Rand as the result of his distilling at Shayol Ghul.<br />7.  Thom killed the KING Ty!  You want a motive?  Ty how about Galldrain sending men to kill Dena. ( Thom's second love of his life ).<br />8.  After Thom finds Dena dead and then kills the killers ( maybe you slept through this part Ty although is was hard to miss) He is told that that the men that killed Dena worked for the King.  Thom then says he's going to kill the King.  Thats the last we see of Thom until Mat runs into him in Tar Valon at which point Thom all but says I killed the King.  Go back and find the part in book three and reread it.  Then I hope it will becaome very obvious to you as it has to others.<br />9.  Unfortunatley for you Ty it is obvious and not VERY funny.  And it has all been proven!  It doesn't have to turn out  because it already has, you just missed it thats all.<br /><br />Columbo is on the case!<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-07 19:57:22
subject: <b>Heh</b>
body:
Mad Ashaman as well as others are also on the case!  Ty has now been enlightened and maybe in the future will also be on the case.<br /><br />Keep working at it Ty you'll get it.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-11 11:02:21
subject: <b>Fain, the oneness and Rand...... RUBBISH!</b>
body:
Rands disapeering act off Fains radar is just Rand going through the portal stones.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Your Soul is Mine!!!  MWHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-11 15:41:23
subject: <b>RUBBISH!</b>
body:
You poor Smuck!  Have you no brains at all?  What about dissapearing in the keep at Fal Dara?  What about when Rand stole the knife and chest?  Do I need to say more?  <br /><br />Columbo is on the case while others are on the pipe!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-28 21:53:46
subject: <b>Kudos to Columbo</b>
body:
Not much to say other than good theory there. I didn't think on this too much, but then, I'm about two hundred pages from finishing me second read of the series, so I'm not exactly an expert (yet.) Thanks for pointing out the obvious for us oblivious folks that HAVEN'T read the series twenty or thirty times.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> former Akutenshi member <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> Organizer of TRACS <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> member of the Trigger fan club <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />Trigger fears: <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/berelain.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> I'm aliena's jig-dancing partner <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> jealous? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /> If I'm here, consider yourself blessed by my presence <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-16 23:01:00
subject: <b>Obvious/Oblivious</b>
body:
I thought this was a great theory. I hadn't noticed this during my first two readings of the series. Good post.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />Shorty, Pastor of Muppets<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Embiggens is a perfectly cromulent word.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />I bet Einstein turned himself all sorts of colors before he invented the light bulb.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/oh.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />PS: I'm sexy. Really. Really really sexy.<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-16 03:50:27
subject: <b>fain's spidey-sense</b>
body:
i'm a few months late for posting on this theory, but what the hey! <br /><br />I always thought Fain's spidey sense was to do with sensing Rand through his emotions. As Rand assumes the void, he blocks away all his emotions and leaves himself in a pool of calm, thereby blocking Fain out as well. <br /><br />Thats my 2 cents, and btw, although most of that was obvious to me, the gholam bit really threw me off. i had no clue and it sounds plausible. nice job.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Maverick<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> Scourge of the Skies <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> Seducer of the Women <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-09 14:15:03
subject: <b>COWARD!!!</b>
body:
Whoever it was that voted over 2000 times 'no' really needs to get a life. Obvious or not, this was a good theory. If you don't like it, sit on your finger and rotate.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br /><i>I will try. Before surrendering to dreams or death, I will try.<font color="black"></font></i></font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-15 00:49:48
subject: <b>Fain Blocked by the Void</b>
body:
The idea that the Void blocks Fain's sense of Rand's presence has good merit.  I always took the scene in tGH to be when Rand traveled through the Portal Stone, but it does happen more frequently.  It is possible that what Fain feeds on is emotions, which are absent in the Void.  In tFoH he senses the strong emotions of Elaida and Alviaran.    As for how it will play out later who knows


created: 2002-12-28 08:49:14
subject: <b>maaybe it is a little bit like...</b>
body:
I just wanted to congratulate columbo on this and now i make sure i shut and lock my doors and windows at night so that PSYCHO who voted 2000 times can't get in. i am so scared now......<br /><br /><br />anyway i maybe thought this void assuming thing might be related to the thing aviendha and min do when elayne and rand are having some &lt;ahem&gt; private time. you know...get all your thoughts and wrap them in a bundle or something. Maybe it's like a female void thing.<br /><br /><br />Or not.<br /><br /><br />just a thought<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />bluemerler sedai wards her house and has a very faithful warder AND pet pit bull terrier so STAY AWAY PSYCHO VOTEY PERSON!!!!!!!!!!


created: 2003-01-04 20:36:28
subject: <b>Thanks</b>
body:
Thanks to those that gave positive feedback.<br /><br />Still working on connecting the Gholam.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-08 16:32:51
subject: <b>NEW ....Spoke with RJ....</b>
body:
Recently I had the oppurtunity to speak with Robert Jordan.  I ran this theory by him, he smiled and nodded his head.  I then asked him if this would play a role in books to come and his response was &quot; I don't put things in my books for no reason&quot;.  I pressed him for more on this but was given RAFO answer.<br /><br />I was excited about this so I thought I'd add it to this post.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-03 03:34:54
subject: <b>Amayar</b>
body:
The Amayar follow the Water Way, which is similar to the Way of the Leaf, only things as fist fights happen but it is highly frowned upon.  The fact that they follow similar beliefs shows that the Tinkers and teh Amayar are related somehow.  Perhaps during the breaking some of the Dashain Aiel were trapped in the islands, or the ancient Sea Folk took pity on some Tinks and agreed to take them to their Islands.  Maybe this will be clarified later, but whos to say that the Amayar don't already know the song?  The Tinkers of present haven't seen the Amayar, few have aside from the Sea Folk themselves, and as we all know the Sea Folk are closed mouthed about their islands.


created: 2002-05-03 08:28:51
subject: <b>In two words - unlikely</b>
body:
Tinkers and Ogier aren't strangers you know. I am sure Tinkers know what the sung wood is, and I do seem to remember a reference to the fact that Tinkers know that Ogiet treesongs aren't the Song.


created: 2002-05-03 10:38:44
subject: <b>Nym</b>
body:
Besides without any Nym to weave the human and Ogier words together it is impossible for the Song to occur.


created: 2002-05-03 10:42:35
subject: <b>Nonsense</b>
body:
Rand had never seen a quaterstaff come out of a tree like that. Besides that the songs of the ogiers are ment to grow songs out of peace so of course that song would appeal to Rand. As for him thinking he should know it, perhaps he considered himself much like Loial at the time. Loial had a hard time living with the people of the world because he's an Ogier and Rand because he can channel something that very few people knew at the time.


created: 2002-05-03 10:53:44
subject: <b>Probably not.</b>
body:
Someone awhile back posted a theory on Rand having found the song in TEotW, but not remembering it. It was a really interesting theory. In the dream he had, as he was drawn to the White Tower, all those people singing. I think that was the song.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br /><i>I will try. Before surrendering to dreams or death, I will try.<font color="black"></font></i></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-03 12:50:13
subject: <b>if he does the Tinkers didn't recognize it</b>
body:
In tEotW once everyone meets up in Caemlyn Loial comments, &quot;I met some Tuatha'an a few years back, and they wanted to learn the songs we sing to trees.  Actully the trees won't listen to very many anymore, and so not many Ogier learn the songs.  I have a scrap of that Talent, so Elder Arent insisted that I learn.  I taught the Tuatha'an what they could learn, but the trees never listen to humans.  For the Traveling People they were only songs, and just as well recieved for that, since <b>none were the song they seek.</b>&quot;(emphasis added)  I don't think that the Tinkers would recognize the Song if they heard it, when the Tinkers first split off from the Aiel they only knew that they used to sing and that people used to come to listen to them sing.  The Song has just become a symbol for them, searching for the way things used to be.  If anyone knows the growing song it's Rand and any Wise One or Clan chief.<br /><br />Jim<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sir Jim<br />Lord of Minutia&#8482;<br />King of WoT MB Posts&#8482;<br /><br />Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-03 13:34:12
subject: <b>The Aiel know it</b>
body:
I think the Aiel know it in general.  I think its a song they sing in battle that they have misconstrued, but since they avoid Tinkers and would never fight near a Lost One, the Tinkers have never heard it.  I think ARAM is the one who discovers the song and returns to the Tinkers with it.<br /><br />Just a thought.<br /><br />Thrasha


created: 2002-05-03 14:00:51
subject: <b>Jim is right</b>
body:
In fact, I was going to post that quote. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/frown.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> &quot;Those the gods wish to destroy, they first make mad&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> &quot;I would not mind you in my head, if you were not so clearly mad. -Lews Therin Telamon&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-03 14:16:38
subject: <b>the ogier know one half of the song</b>
body:
remember when Rand was in those columns, the ogier and the Aiel sang together while the Nym danced. The ogier still have thir song and they use it for &quot;singing wood&quot;, but the Aiel have lost theirs. It would not be the same song.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> <font color="a52a2a">Magnus Alexander corpore parvus erat </font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <font color="b8860b">Dissenting voice of wotmania</font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <br /><font color="6495ed">Frightfully stubborn pacifist</font> <br /><br /><i><font color="669900"> Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent</font></i></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-03 16:42:38
subject: <b>I like the idea of it being in Rand's dream, but...</b>
body:
I've always thought of the song as something that they search for but will never find (duh). What I mean by that is that the way of life that the whole world followed at one time is gone and they wil serch but nevr find it.<br /><br />After all, if a song united your people and was the reason that they unified, wouldt you think that they would still remember it? Aftr all, how hard is it to teach your kids a song?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-03 17:10:48
subject: <b>Rand knew the song because:</b>
body:
Rand though Loial's song was familiar because LTT was preparing to materialize in his crazy little head.  LTT, who lived during the Age of Legends, would certainly find Ogier Singing (and Aiel singing) familiar.


created: 2002-05-04 13:50:27
subject: <b>mierin sedai's on the right track</b>
body:
I've always thought that the columns were meant to take the Aiel back, but they would also take back the Tinkers, since they have the necessary common heritage.  Since Rand remembers that he was singing a song (probably &quot;THE SONG&quot;, yes?), others who were Tinkers with Aiel heritage (none of this would work with anyone who became adopted into the tribes, probably), should be able to pass through the ter'angrel and regain the knowledge they have lost.  Moreover, this would allow them , through later visions in the same ter'angrel, the knowledge that the first song actually was the song they were looking for all that time, as was shown to Rand.  <br />Now what happens after that leads to many possible roads for RJ to travel down, and I know what the only solution to that is going to be: <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" />.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Reality is not what it used to be. <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-06 14:41:53
subject: <b>Not the Song</b>
body:
Loial probably does not know the song. It was mentioned (I don't recall which book) that the Ogier tried to teach the tinkers there tree songs, but it didn't do anything for them. I will reread and post on the theory board when I find the quote.


created: 2002-05-07 07:55:43
subject: <b>The song of the tinker is proberly not 1 song</b>
body:
but a way of singing.<br />In the age of legends the aiel and the ogier sang 2 the crop so it would grow. so proberly the ogier song the aiel song r 2 parts of a hole. but the aiel could sing without the ogier<br />&quot;Ten thousend daishen stood singing trying 2 remind him who he was and what he was and he kiled him...&quot;<br />Well, thats not a qute but thats kind of what the aes sedai told 1 of rands forfathers. I don't think the aiel tryed 2 harvest n e thing, so it was a difrent song. yet it had a lot of pwer if they thoght that it would cure a madman.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" />What is time for a wolf?<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-07 18:12:07
subject: <b>Agreeing with Mierin Sedai</b>
body:
The columns are the key, I believe. After all, it's meant to show the history of the Aiel, and aren't the Tuatha'an technically Aiel? Actually...this is just a thought, so if you'd like to disagree don't flame it too badly <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> but I've got this image of Aram following Perrin into the Waste for some reason then going through the columns, and emerging with the song. I have a feeling it will play into the books at some point in the future. After all...the Tuatha'an are as much the people of the dragon as the Aiel are, and despite their lack of violence, they could have a part to play in TG as well.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Memnoch Sedai<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" /> Devish Green <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /> Proud bonder of Vahn de Mac <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /><br />She who is very good <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /> At being very bad <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /><br />Member of the <font color="#0000FF">English</font> <font color="#FF0000">Quisition</font><br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/13777.gif" /> Sax is life....the rest is just details <img src="images/personalsmilies/13777.gif" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-15 01:55:58
subject: <b>Of course!</b>
body:
We know the tinkers are permitted in the Waste.  Why did I never consider that one of them might find a way to go through the columns and find the Song?  That is a perfect solution!  <br /><br />Of course, it will have to be one with the proper (Aiel) genetic makeup.  But after millenia of in-breeding, wouldn't almost all of the Tuatha'an have SOME Aiel blood, even considering their &quot;converts&quot;?<br /><br />I do believe that some measure of the seed-singing could be accomplished with just the Aiel/Tuatha'an and the Ogier...perhaps since the Nym were constructs, there might also be a ter'angreal somewhere that can duplicate their contribution to the Singing.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> Shel</font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-06 22:51:24
subject: <b>Laziness on my part...</b>
body:
I've not read through the other comments, so this was prolly already stated.  I've always thought the oiger tree song was a portion of the song the seeker seeks.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" />     Asha'Twan     <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br />To use no way as way, to have no limitations as limitiation.<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Lee Jun Fan<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-24 10:20:40
subject: <b>I think Memnoch Sedai has a theory</b>
body:
Maybe you already posted it, but I really think you're on to something. Aram IS the key to the song and almost everybody agrees to that. Him going to Rhuidean would be the most logical solution.<br /><br />A very good idea!<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Engeltje <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />&quot;I'm not a guru or a sage. I'm a storyteller. The only times I get disturbed is when I find people who seem to be taking this too seriously.&quot; - Robert Jordan <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-26 23:14:32
subject: <b>Rand will know the Song!</b>
body:
Rand will eventually reveal the song. I say this because Lews Therin will reveal it to him. Lews Therin knew the Song as stated in TEOTW proloque. P.x. &quot;Ah, a guest. Have you the Voice stranger? It will soon be time for the Singing, and all are welcome to take part.&quot;....<br />I think with all the memories Rand is getting from LTT, all he has to do is meet up with some Tinkers and have the Seeker ask &quot;Do you know the song?&quot; And 'pop' there it is.


created: 2006-01-26 21:41:24
subject: <b>The Glass Columns</b>
body:
I've always thought that the columns were meant to take the Aiel back, but they would also take back the Tinkers, since they have the necessary common heritage. Since Rand remembers that he was singing a song (probably &quot;THE SONG&quot;, yes?), others who were Tinkers with Aiel heritage (none of this would work with anyone who became adopted into the tribes, probably), should be able to pass through the ter'angrel and regain the knowledge they have lost. Moreover, this would allow them , through later visions in the same ter'angrel, the knowledge that the first song actually was the song they were looking for all that time, as was shown to Rand. <br />Now what happens after that leads to many possible roads for RJ to travel down, and I know what the only solution to that is going to be: .QUOTE<br /><br />I don't know about this, maybe RJ said something about this, but I doubt that the AS from the AoL could make a Ter'angreal sophisticated enough to tell the Aiel's bloodlines from any other.  The only way I can see this possible is if they took every Aiel alive and analyzed their blood and did something crazy with the ter'angreal.  Also, I don't think this was clarified, but wouldn't they have taken the glass columns with the rest of the stuff.  Although, I guess the Aiel would be pretty angry if Moiraine tried that.<br /><br />Lastly, since no ones obviously posted here in a while, I'd like to point out that Aram is now dead.  So much for your theories.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">All I know is, if I had three girlfriends like Rand, I'd be spending a lot less on servants.</font><p></p>


created: 2007-05-24 14:27:03
subject: <b>eh</b>
body:
I agree with theory, I think it explains why Rand knows the song vaguely. Also, the Da Shain sang the seed songs with Ogier's and Nym's, and &quot;the song&quot; is obviously a seed song. <br /><br />Also, Loial says he has the &quot;talent&quot; for singing wood, whereas the Aiel in the AoL began as soon as their voices were deep enough. This leads me to believe that singing wood is like the OP, it can be learned, and the lack of learned individuals is &quot;culling&quot; the ability out of the Ogier. <br /><br />In the end I agree, Loial know's the song and will teach it to the tinkers, who will in effect start growing a new world after Tarmon Gaidon, and it will be a return to a more peaceful time.


created: 2002-05-03 06:02:42
subject: <b>The DO prevents the DF to Kill Rand</b>
body:
because he knows that they can't achieve this. In LoC, when Demandred says to the DO that Rand is weak and could easily be disposed of, the DO interrupts him by asking &quot;Would you be Nae'blis?&quot;. I think it means that the only one who can defeat Rand is the Nae'blis, during the Last Battle. Those who tried to kill one of the three ta'veren always missed &quot;by chance&quot;. This is due to the pattern that doesn't allow Mat or Rand or Perrin to be killed by the first DF in the street.<br /><br />With the same idea, I think the weakening of the seals comes from the Last Battle approaching (Seanchan returning, Aiel leaving the Waste, White Tower splitting....) and not only from what Rand does.


created: 2002-05-03 10:47:25
subject: <b>The Trollocs at Tear were Lanfear's</b>
body:
Lanfear told Rand she sent the other Trollocs to help him.  And with Asmodean, I doubt that the DO didn't want Asmodean killed; it's just that he isn't omnipresent and doesn't know what's going on everywhere.<br /><br />I think the DO just needs Rand to stay alive to FIGHT the Last Battle, and the Nae'blis has to help try to turn Rand to the Dark One's side.  That seems to be the real hope of the Dark - if the champion of good were turned, then the Dark One's power would be complete.<br /><br />It's sort of like that Luke Skywalker thing.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Annoying wotmaniacs for 10 years.<br /><br />Oh, I don't have time for this. I have to go and buy a single piece of fruit with a coupon and then return it, making people wait behind me while I complain. - Prof. Farnsworth<br /> <br /><b>The Voice of Lews Therin</b><br /><br /></font><p><a href="http://www.waronterrortheboardgame.com/" target="_blank">Find out what WOT really means...</a></p><p></p>


created: 2002-05-03 10:57:10
subject: <b>no they weren't.....</b>
body:
they were sent by Semirhage.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Da Mook<br /><br /><br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/220.gif" /><br /><br /><br /><i>&quot;You're not cute, you're a silver-fox sex god is what you are.&quot;  LiterateDog to me, of course<br /><br />&quot;snoop elsewhere&quot; -Pevara</i> <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-03 10:59:26
subject: <b>I like it</b>
body:
Although I've always believed that the DO saying 'Let the Lord of Chaos rule' was tied in with the last message Rand got from Herid Fel before he was killed. Something about 'belief and order strengthening'. I think that Fel realized that chaos was weakening the seals, and only order and belief would make them stronger. The DO knew that Fel discovered this and so, had him killed so Rand would keep spreading chaos, and weakening the seals.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br /><i>I will try. Before surrendering to dreams or death, I will try.<font color="black"></font></i></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-03 11:16:53
subject: <b>Semirhage's Trollocs</b>
body:
Thanks, I realize I was incomplete here.<br /><br />I was working on the basis that Semirhage was either working under direct orders from the DO or was following his previous dictates and helping prevent the hot-headed idiots Sammael and Rahvin from killing him. <br /><br />Something interesting about this that wasn't an issue when it happened is that we have since learned that Semirhage was in the lands of the Seanchan then.  Of course she can Travel, but that's pretty extreme, bringing the most remote of the Forsaken in to clean up the mess.  That suggests to me that she was working on her own initiative.<br /><br />I'm guessing Semirhage is probably the steadiest and most reliable of his Chosen (the DO's).  Even the males speak of her with respect and caution.  After Graendal she's my favorite :-)<br /><br />Notice how all the primary males are a bit along the lines of rabid maniacs? I'm counting Demandred, Sammael, partly Rahvin and, of course, Moridin/Ishamael here.  Only Lanfear among the women matches that.  One might surmise it's the taint, but I think it may simply be that they all had personal relations with LTT that makes this quite personal.


created: 2002-05-03 11:47:33
subject: <b>WOW! DAMN GOOD POINTS!</b>
body:
I am very IMPRESSED! This is a well thought out theory and explains the &quot;Let the Lord of Chaos Rule&quot; thing. <br /><br />Kudos to you!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I am cool, are you? <br /><br />The kicker of the seals <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <br />The flame that burned down Tar Valon <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />My arse is the Amyrlin Seat</font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-03 13:11:18
subject: <b>Vashti...</b>
body:
Nice Theory!  I think that since Moridin's POV in LOC when playing the ancient game ( Rand being the key piece the fisher)  that it was plain that at first the DO wanted to turn an ignorant sheepherder to the darkside.  Failing that which they did in desperation try to eliminate Rand which also failed. This is why I agree with some of your theory in that for the DO to break free he will need Rand's assistance. I think at this point they'll try to turn Rand against his will.  i.e. Egwene vision of Rand trapped in Camelyn under rubble and Thirteen Mydraal and Aes Sedai on their way to turn him to the darkside.<br /><br />Rand will face off with Moridin in the end and win.<br /><br />Columbo is on the case.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-03 14:19:35
subject: <b>Sort of a bit</b>
body:
Okie dokie, its a good theory all in all and i agree with you on most aspects. However, i dont really believe the DO wants Rand to succeed. I think he basically WANTS to face Rand at the Last Battle because good ol' Ba'alzamon is in actual fact, a fair Dark One. Wouldnt that be an interesting twist, a cruel but fair DO?? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-05-03 14:35:47
subject: <b>One thing that has always confused me</b>
body:
is Ishy's comment that on occasion the Dragon has gone over to the dark side, as it were. Does anyone think that he was serious, or just trying to get Rand to think that it could happen? If it is true, and that in past turnings of the wheel, the Dragon has gone to the dark side, does that mean that the dark won in that turning? Or, did the wheel spit out someone to take the dragon out? If that dark did win, does that in turn suggest that even if the DO is successful in turning Rand, he still can't break out of his prison?<br /><br />Food for thought...<br /><br />Rob<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Rob<br /><br />&quot;I am satisfied that your answer is correct. I am not, however, satisfied that your answer is right...&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-03 15:32:53
subject: <b>regarding Ishy's comments to Rand....</b>
body:
simple.  he lied.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Da Mook<br /><br /><br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/220.gif" /><br /><br /><br /><i>&quot;You're not cute, you're a silver-fox sex god is what you are.&quot;  LiterateDog to me, of course<br /><br />&quot;snoop elsewhere&quot; -Pevara</i> <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-03 15:37:44
subject: <b>I thought this was pretty obvious</b>
body:
however, it's no longer the case.  You missed mentioning the fact that both Lanfear and Ishy tried to convert him, making him the DO's avatar would have greatly increased the DO's power while weakening the side of the Light.  You also leave out the end of tDR where Ishy tries to kill Rand but is unable.  And also the first of Rand's major victories where they find a Seal unbroken.  At the beginning of tFoH when they all get back to Rhuidien Moiraine finds another Seal that is unbroken as well.  The reason for allowing Rand to live and spread chaos is not that he weakens the DO's prison, that just happens with time, but Rand is weakening the human race by causing all sorts of confusion, plus the Prophet, Masema making things worse.  Then there's the fact that Rand's existance has made the Borderlands the weakest it's ever been because the Borderland monarchs have taken a large portion of their armies into the heartland of the Westlands.<br /><br />On to your points, A) totally agree, by order of the DO to Semi, LoC CH Threads Woven in Shadows.<br />B) I think this may have been more of Moridin's own planning, in PoD he mentions &quot;It is very hard to lose a game when you played both sides of the board.&quot;<br />C) Agreed, Slayer, nuff said.<br />D) As I mentioned above Rand probably would have been of better use to the DO as his Nae'blis rather than fighting against his Nae'blis.<br /><br />The reason that Halima doesn't snap Egwene's neck is because it makes more sense to manipulate Egwene and cause greater problems worldwide than killing Egwene would do.  Like keeping the three Oaths, perhaps prolonging the Aes Sedai conflict.  There are any number of things that Halima could do by controlling Egwene that would benefit the DO more than her death.<br /><br />As for Elayne, assuming the DO knows of their relationship(Rand and Elayne) then wouldn't it make sense to have someone that Elayne would trust implicitly and therefore Rand would trust so that he might kill Rand.  Again there are worse things that Hanlon can do to Elyane and Andor than just killing her, especially considering her death would just put Dyelin on the throne and probably all of Andor behind her.  Whereas right now Andor is split and possibly starting a war on itself, the four armies approaching Andor.<br /><br />So why didn't the DO lean harder on the Forsaken to work together when Rand was clensing the Source.  Or at least lean on Moridin or SH to help out, since apparently neither one of them was there.<br /><br />Even with all of the Seals broken the DO still won't be free, he'll be like he was at the end of the AoL but still trapped for the most part.  Also it's likely that Fel's message about clearing rubble to rebuild, refers to at the least breaking the Seals, if not destroying the whole prison and rebuilding.<br /><br /><i>But in any event, the Dark One is aiding Rand with the hopes of allowing Rand just enough strength to free him, yet not enough to win (or at least that's the plan).</i><br /><br />I think this may have been the plan, but I doubt the DO will be able to ignore the fact that Rand has clensed the Source, something that the Aes Sedai on the AoL couldn't do and therefore he has become too strong.  While the DO may not try to kill him before the Last Battle, as Moridin at least has seemed to think it impossible, given his statements to both the renegade Asha'man and the Forsaken.  &quot;Kill him if you must,...&quot;  And &quot;Killed?' Moridin moved his hands as if weighing something.  'If it comes to that, yes,...And you will go there and take him.  Or kill him, if necessary.&quot;  While Moridin won't be fighting Rand until the Last Battle, I doubt the DO will allow Rand as much freedom as he's had in the past in fact, I'm willing to bet that the beginning of the Trolloc invasion will be coming soon to cause more chaos, especially with th Borderlands weaker than they've been for some time.<br /><br />Jim<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sir Jim<br />Lord of Minutia&#8482;<br />King of WoT MB Posts&#8482;<br /><br />Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-03 16:49:41
subject: <b>I'm really not trying to be a hypocrite, but...</b>
body:
if this wasnt obvious to you the first time you read the books, then... well, you know what I'm saying. <br /><br />That said, I agree that the DO wants Rand to do his thang until TG. Nothing else makes sense, and it also fits with the quotes at the beginning and end of each book. Why are they saying all this horrible stuff about what Rand is doing unless he's somehow working against himself?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-03 19:06:56
subject: <b>Actually....</b>
body:
I thought it WAS obvious, which is why I didn't post it long ago.  But looking over the theories list, there's too many comments that indicated it may not be.  And as with Columbo's recent post, some people just see things differently, so I posted. *shrug*<br /><br />And actually, the part I'm having trouble with in my own theory IS the early conversion.  I think Lanfear's conversion attempts can be excused for her obsession with him.  <br /><br />I'm thinking that actually the DO didn't embark on this plan until Toman Head.  Before, he was just trying to convert a young sheepherder who didn't have a clue who he was...after this, Rand was proclaimed and the whole world knew.


created: 2002-05-03 19:52:35
subject: <b>Well, this suggests at something</b>
body:
This is a well thought out and interesting theory. But if the DO wants to have Rand succeed so that he can break free of his bondage, doesn't it suggest that the Last Battle will in fact be the LAST BATTLE? Because if it will be the last battle, then doesn't it suggest that the DO will break free? Think about it. The war in the Age of Legends was NOT called the Last Battle, and as far as we know, this might be the first time that the struggle between good and evil has been given such an ominous name. So if what you are suggesting is true, then the DO is letting Rand &quot;succeed&quot; because it is his best chance of breaking free?<br />(Just some thoughts)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">If pro is the opposite of con, then the opposite<br />of progress is congress<br />- Mark Twain<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-04 00:50:14
subject: <b>Yes</b>
body:
This is -precisely- what I'm suggesting.  Remember Fel saying 'clear the rubble'?   I've always maintained that Rand is MORE than LTT. That LTT, as successful and heroic as he was, was only able to stick his thumb in the dyke. <br /><br />The stakes have ramped up; the Dark One smells possible ultimate victory.  That's why he's actually helping Rand.  He's setting him up for a confrontation in which has the advantage.  He has numerous powerful agents in deadly, subversive positions when, once there is no turning back, they can blow away his supporting cast.  (this is the idea, at least) <br /><br />Rand, too, is going for 'ultimate victory'.  this is one reason why we're reading the book of THIS age and not of LTT. He was incomplete; this is endgame.


created: 2002-05-04 12:50:31
subject: <b>Vashti</b>
body:
I'm thinking that Let the Lord of Chaos rule wasn't always the main plan.  Probably early one the DO wanted to try converting Rand cause without the Dragon to fight the DO he was pretty much assured of a win at the Last Battle.  However, after seeing Rand move he figured that allowing Rand to do his own thing weakened the humans pretty well and also gave the DO plenty of chances to slip DFs near to Rand.  Also all of the competing nobles trying to kill Rand probably doesn't bother the DO any either.  I think after WH and the clensing though the DO is going to have to reevaluate the plan of letting Rand go his own way, cause the clensing is likely to have a bad affect on recruitment of DF Asha'man, since protection from the taint is no longer necessary.<br /><br />As for the clearing the rubble, I've always assumed that Rand will have to rebuild the DO's prison, especially given Lanfear's comment about how with the Choedan Kal they could challenge the Creator.  Personally I think that's how Alivia is going to help Rand die, by being the female that weilds the Choedan Kal.<br /><br />Jim<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sir Jim<br />Lord of Minutia&#8482;<br />King of WoT MB Posts&#8482;<br /><br />Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-06 00:14:40
subject: <b>Actualy, this won't be the Last Battle....</b>
body:
After all, why believe it just because people are calling it that?<br /><br />Question (Asked by someone in the audience) <br />&quot;At one point in the story we see Ishamael talking to Rand, and telling him that they have fought countless times in the past, but this is the final time. Is there anything about his Age that makes it special?&quot; <br />Answer <br />&quot;No... Every Age is repeated, there is nothing that makes this Age any different from any other turnings of the Wheel. The Wheel is endless.&quot; <br /><br /><br />To see the above quote with your own eyes:<br /><br />http://35.10.40.62/wotmania/interviewmarcon36.asp<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-09 10:46:15
subject: <b>the seals</b>
body:
i posted a theory on the seals a while back that hits on the  &quot;clearing the rubble&quot; part of Fel's statement.  you see, the seals where made only with saidin (which is why only saidin was tainted, but that's another theory!), and therefore insufficient to maintain their hold on the prison.  why?  because meriam (lanfear) and beidomon drilled the bore, not just beidomon.  what was taken out was a combo of saidin and saidar.  think about making a hole in your backyard.  in order to fill it up, you need what you started out with--namely the dirt you took out.  but LTT only used saidin, and therefore the &quot;filling&quot; was not good enough.  what IS needed is a combo of saidin and saidar.  and that's ok because rand has cleansed saidin and has female aes sedai helping him.  of course, in order to fill in the bore correctly, rand and co. must first &quot;clear the rubble&quot;, which means break the seals.  a feat i think already done due to rand's cleansing, but again, that's another theory.  and for those of you who would ask, &quot;but that would simply taint saidar along with saidin, wouldn't it?&quot; well, before the drilling of the bore they weren't tainted, so obviously saidin acts as a buffer for saidar, and in turn saidar protects saidin.  this is why the greatest things ever made were done in concert (male and female).


created: 2002-05-10 16:25:18
subject: <b>How could DO kill Asmodean</b>
body:
I'm just a little confised on why we have to accpet the fact that the DO could have killed Asmodean any time he wanted.  How could he do that?  Can he kill any DF at any time, or does it just have to be people that have been to see him in the past.  Can it only be the people that are &quot;linked&quot; to him?  If that's the case, only the male Forsaken are linked to him.  What would happen with the females.  And Rand supposedly cut the link between Amsodean and the DO.  If the DO can kill anyone he wants, why doesn't he just kill people that he doesn't like?


created: 2002-08-16 12:45:18
subject: <b>RE: How could DO kill Asmodean</b>
body:
I don't think the theory meant that the DO himself could just kill people instantly from afar, Darkfriends or not. <br /><br />What would happen, as seen in other parallel examples, is that the Dark One would have sent <i>gholams</i>, Trollocs, Slayer, Shaidar Haran, or other Forsaken into the Waste and to Cairhien to kill Asmodean if the Dark One thought Rand would learn enough to ruin his plans.<br /><br />Even with Lanfear scheming to get Rand on her side (a different side than the DO's), it wouldn't have been a problem for the DO to find out where Asmodean was. He himself probably told the DO during an (unseen) trip to Shayol Ghul. After the betrayal, the Dark One could have sent untold people after him <b>if the Dark One wanted to do so</b>.<br /><br />Conclusion: The Dark One wanted Asmodean to remain with Rand. In fact, Asmodean remaining alive during <i>The Fires of Heaven</i> is very strong proof of this entire theory --that the Dark One is helping Rand and shaping him into the instrument of the Light's defeat at TG.<br /><br />Elder Haman<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/loial.gif" border="0" /> Still searching for Loial (hint, hint, RJ) <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/loial.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-12-03 23:07:27
subject: <b>The DO will win</b>
body:
Absolutely right, the DO is letting Rand get all of his victories, as part of his plan. But, by all rights, the DO should win. Afterall, he has fought this exact fight throughout eternity, he sound know every single consequence of his actions, and exactly how Rand will respond by now (think of the movie 'Groundhog Day'. Also, I think Asmodean was chosen as Chosen simply to teach Rand how to channel in this age - why else chose a relatively unpowerful muscian as one of your generals? The Light can never Win, since winning just lets the wheel continue and give the DO another chance. Only the DO can win, since when he wins, it is forever. Therefore, logically, the DO will win sooner or later throughout eternity. Why not now?


created: 2002-12-04 16:51:20
subject: <b>Seals</b>
body:
Perhaps the DO did not allow all the seals to break on purpose.  If his plan was to delay Tarmon Gaidon until Rand was mad already, Rand would then be easier to turn.  I truly believe that if the &quot;Avatar of the Creator&quot; ever truly turns, then the prison will be broken.  Rand's sudden cleansing of the taint will be such a surprise, and such a blow to the Dark One's plans, that he will release his minions to finally strike.  This will begin TG.  The quiet along the Blight has to have some reason behind it.


created: 2002-12-07 13:22:34
subject: <b>Explains a lot</b>
body:
Fascinating theory, one which I agree with completely.  The only additional comment I have is it appears Semhirage (In LoC, I forget which chapter; she's thinking about the Forsaken's relationship with the Dark One and events in the Age of Legends)is on to the Dark One's plan, but the other Forsaken haven't a clue.  Even Moridin/Ishamael has overlooked the Dark One's pattern of taking a long-term view of things.


created: 2003-02-23 06:05:29
subject: <b>Possibility, with a disagreement</b>
body:
I agree that this theory is a possibility, but I do dis aggree with the idea of the DO hand in Tear. We know that the Forsaken control Trollocs and each has an army of them available to them. I beleive that in Tear that it was Lanfear who sent her Trollocs to aid Rand. She was in love with the Dragon and beleiving Rand to be Lews Therrin. Lanfear, nee Mierin Eronaile, lost Lews Therrin to Ilyena, but still wishes to have him through Rand


created: 2003-04-01 05:23:48
subject: <b>Lanfear did not send the trollocs</b>
body:
There was a forsaken POV that proved that Lanfear did not send the trollocs. Give me a little while to find the page number.


created: 2004-10-03 16:10:16
subject: <b>NOOOO!!</b>
body:
This so-called &quot;Last Battle&quot; will not be the ending of the Dark One if Rand wins.  FAR FROM IT!! The Wheel of Time is cyclic, and the fundamental idea behind it is BALANCE.  Good vs. Evil.  Order vs. Chaos.  If the DO is gone for good, this will be all screwed up.  Rand's job for the Last Battle in this age is to fix the DO's prison to where there will not be a hole.  (See Fel's thinking about how when the AoL comes around again, there will be no hole in the prison.)  But if the DO wins, then this balance will end and he will unmake the Pattern.<br /><br />I think that the early attempts by Ishy to convert Rand to the Dark Side are very easily explained.  Rand is young, confused, and uncertain about his place in the world and his role as the Dragon Reborn.  Ishy is exploiting this, offering him power, and protection from the taint, if he joins the Shadow.  However, as Rand matures, he gets an increasingly powerful belief that he has to stop the DO at Tarmon Gai'don.  Rand has a strong sense of duty, as we see throughout the books.  So Ishy stops trying to directly convert him, and is content with manipulating everything from the shadows.<br /><br />I think it's clear, as is stated in this theory, that the DO is not actively hindering Rand in his activities.  Everything Rand is doing has, so far, been pretty predictable.  Uniting the nations, killing Forsaken, etc.  But when Rand does something UNPREDICTABLE, that's when the DO/Ishy gets scared.  For instance, Rand running off to Tear.  This was the result of the plot by Be'lal/Mesaana.  Not Ishy's doing.  Remember, throughout the TDR we get the sense that Ishy is desperately searching for Rand.<br /><br />THINK ABOUT IT!!! Prior to Rand getting Callandor, he is all confused about the whole Dragon Reborn thing.  He's not sure if he really is the Dragon.  By getting Callandor, he convinces himself that he IS, and out the window goes all of the DO's plans for converting Rand to the dark side.  Be'lal's mad bid for Callandor screwed everything up for Ishy.  That's why he went beserk and tried to kill Rand at the end of TDR.<br /><br />The other thing, as mentioned in the theory, is the fact that Rand cleansed the taint.  Gone is another incentive for Rand to join the Dark Side, as well as stopping further madness of the Asha'man, etc.  So Ishy sends all of the Forsaken to try to whack Rand.<br /><br />The DO knows what the PLAN(tm) for the Light is.  Remember, he's done this who knows how many times!!  When Rand does something new, or unpredictable, or out of order (like getting Callandor so early), then the DO freaks out and tries to kill him.  Otherwise, Rand is totally predictable and can be left to his own devices.


created: 2005-02-04 19:27:09
subject: <b>This is slightly of topic, but</b>
body:
this last battle will be the absolute LAST battle. no more evil. which, theoretically, isn't possible, the wheel of time turns. So... the wheel will be broken? that suggests the dark one will win. Or, maybe the following could occur: Rand wins at Tarmon Gai'don, then, somehow, breaks the wheel, knowing it would mean the wheel ends with the dark one dying. how could he break the wheel? i have no idea. choedan kal? no where near close. maybe something to do with the dark one &quot;dying&quot; instead of being resealed. could the resonance of this give rand enough power  to break the wheel? i have no idea.<br /><br />Sorry to post something that makes no sense at all.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">-Sabin<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-04-26 20:21:26
subject: <b>On Past Dragons being on the dark side</b>
body:
My theory is thus, the soul of LTT had been for the DO before, but the Dragon hasn't, it's simply complex, if you follow my meaning there.  The Dragon, I beleive, is not a single line of souls, I beleive that the hero of any given breaking and final battle IS the Dragon's soul, but that is is not always LTT's soul, that maybe, it jumps, maybe LTT's soul at points was just slightly wrong and maybe it was Perrins soul 7 ages ago, or Mat's 23 ago, or any number of ages within the turning of the wheel.  Afterall, who were Mat and Perrin in the last age?  Any mention history or memory?  They weren't there...which leads me to another rambling theory that since all &quot;possible past Dragon souls&quot; are present in this one age, that maybe this sealing will be different, maybe the DO is destroyed?  Maybe he escapes?  Maybe his evilness is spread evenly throughout the cosmos and disipated, Maybe I'm rambling and making this up as I go?  Nothing is certain.


created: 2005-05-02 05:26:21
subject: <b>Gotta Agree</b>
body:
I think that it is right to say that some of Rand's actions, even though they seem to have won him battles, have cause chaos to spread. <br />His taking of Cairhien was an important battle, but look what happened there, many people made claims to the throne and some people were ultimately hanged. Cairhien is still being disputed, Rand doesn't rule it himself and Elayne hasn't made a succesful claim yet. It is unctrolled and in... chaos. <br />We know that the Dragon had to take the stone of Tear, but Rand's management again has lead to Chaos, there are those who would try and take back the Stone and over-throw Rand's steward. Also Rand's taking of Callandor has cause chaotic events, such as his attempt to channel 'Strike of Death' against the Seanchan. Ultimately his attempt to push them back failed as they still gained a holding in Illian, and Rand killed his own people. Another bold move, that ultimately ended in...chaos.<br />Rand had to take Caemlyn and Andor back from Rahvin, but again he has not set things up properly and now crime rates are through the roof in the capital, another building is burnt every night. There are many powerful house apposing Elayne not to mention that army on the way. Rand seeminly did the right thing, but it led to ...chaos.<br />When Rand went to Far Madding, he left clues to draw the renegade Asha'man to follow him, so he challenge them without the use of the power. He killed one of the four, and Fain took out the others, but in the process some very bad things happened to Far Madding. Cadsuane told us what she had to do to get the boy out of trouble, break a woman who she considered to be a very good leader. That and convincing all 13 members of the council that the Guardian was flawed, who knows what that might do to Far Madding's society... chaos.<br />When rand threw back the Seanchan at Falme, he thought that in one stroke he had defeated them for good. But this is definately not so, shaken by their first ever defeat they have hit back at the mainland with additional power and strength, sweeping through the West with shocking speed and power. If Rand cannot convince them to help him then who knows which side they will fight on at TG... chaos.<br />After he returned from Rhuidean, he addresses practically the entire Aiel nation and divulges to every single spear what only Clan Chiefs and Wise Ones had previously known. CLearly not all are able to cope and The Bleakness takes hold. He doesn;t think about what effect his words will have, though he does have good intentiones. He was prophicised to break the Aiel Nation, and that he definately has done bringing... Chaos.<br /><br />Though rand is IMO still quite sane and everything he does, does have logic to it, i think he strikes too aggressively and without thinking ahead. Then when he think's he has succeeded, he moves on, though usually because he feels he must, to crush some other threat. This bring with it Chaos to everywhere he has visited. I agree that Herid Fel must have deduced this and perhaps that the DO was aware of it too, and so he was killed off. The DO needs Rand to continue spreading chaos so that the seals will be broken and he can escape his prison. Let's not forget Egwene dream of Rand walking on the seals. He is quite literally with every step he takes bringing chaos and this is weakening and breaking the seals one by one.<br />


created: 2007-05-23 17:56:07
subject: <b>i always thought...</b>
body:
that Herid Fell's &quot;clearning the rubble&quot; was reffering to the political situation in randland.<br /><br />What i mean is that Rand has to clear away all of the chaos and malintent between nations in order to build a world that is ready to face the DO<br />


created: 2008-07-14 18:32:30
subject: <b>Makes sense</b>
body:
If the Dark One wants to be free of his prison, Rand is his only chance of doing so, even if he risks being completely destroyed at Tarmon Gai'don.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Kids in the front seat cause accidents. <br />Accidents in the back seat cause kids.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-03 12:35:05
subject: <b>ewwwwwww</b>
body:
All I can say is that you have a disturbing command of late 70's and early 80's music....<br /><br />(and of course, I was able to recognize it, which says something about me that shouldn't be repeated....)<br /><br />Now if you really wanna get funky, have Mat Cauthon singing &quot;Undercover Angel&quot; and Bela singing &quot;Wildfire&quot;


created: 2002-05-03 22:10:49
subject: <b>you left somebody out</b>
body:
You forgot Sheryl Crow. She ALWAYS manages to be anywhere 3 or more artists gather for whatever cause! I have to believe that she would find SOME way to be at this also! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/oh.gif" border="0" />)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Tai'Shar Preussen!<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/seanchan.gif" border="0" /> Der Ritter des Lichtes  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> Lord Protector of the Lady B.Alicia <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-04 17:28:02
subject: <b>Some people talk much but say little</b>
body:
Exactly what the title says<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><u><b>Owner</b></u> of Mat Girl - I have it in <i>writing</i> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><i>'Wight now I imagwin your feewing a bit wike Awice, tumbewing down the wabbit hoewl'</i>-<b><u>Morpheus</u></b><br /><br /><b><u>I am <i>NOT</i> a Zoo!</u></b></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-06 13:58:31
subject: <b>this crap gets posted...</b>
body:
because it&#180;s funny!!! that&#180;s why! man!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font face="Lucida Blackletter"><font color="pink"><b>Pink-Fluffy Bunnies are evil</b></font></font><br /><br /><br /><br /><font face="Lucida Blackletter">In the <b>BucketBaby</b>-Fanclub</font><br /><br /><font face="Lucida Blackletter"><font color="navy">Warder to Zyallira Sedai</font></font> <br /><br /><br /><font face="Lucida Blackletter">Unbowed,Unbent,Unbroken</font><br /><br /><br /><font face="Lucida Blackletter"><i>SQUEAK!</i> - <b>The Grim Squeaker</b></font><br /><br /><br /><font color="blue">Think of the kittens!!!!</font></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-09 02:43:54
subject: <b>Yuppers</b>
body:
I want to see the Whitecloaks sing &quot;YMCA&quot;.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">the itsy bitsy spider always lies<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/avi.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-12-22 19:26:36
subject: <b>I almost bought it...</b>
body:
But the Ivory back scratcher gave it away. Egwene doesn't need one of those...she's got Gwayne!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Any comments on my photos appreciated</font><p><a href="http://saltwater.smugmug.com/" target="_blank">My photos, a work in progress</a></p><p></p>


created: 2002-05-03 10:58:26
subject: <b>I agree</b>
body:
It all made sense to me the moment you said the theory was how the Wheel was the world of dreams. Kinda works for the DO and the Creator being on the outside of the wheel cause neither are in the world of dreams. And as people have stated before not all is known of the world of dreams. It makes sense when you think about. It may not have any strong proof but it works.


created: 2002-05-03 11:23:50
subject: <b>DO</b>
body:
The Dark One is not free when freed in one world, but when freed in all worlds. This is why <i>our</i> Last Battle is of so much importance, 'cuz <i>our</i> world is the last world where the DO is still inprisoned(this is seen by Rand when he travels to Falme with the Portal Stone, tGH).


created: 2002-05-03 12:50:32
subject: <b>TAR is the hub of the time</b>
body:
every reality that is or could be is a spoke of the wheel of time.... TAR is just the hub of the system, not the whole wheel.


created: 2002-05-03 17:16:20
subject: <b>I like this one.</b>
body:
I was wondering if anyone noticed that. In TGH, Verin says &quot;If the dark one was free in one world, he would be free in them all.&quot; Or at least something to that extent. I like the idea that the wheel is in the &quot;machine&quot; so to speak. Kudos on a good theory.


created: 2002-05-03 18:19:58
subject: <b>Verin says....</b>
body:
It the DO is free in one world he is free in all the worlds and if he is imprisoned in one world he is imprisoned in all the worlds.  Now what can you make of  that?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-04 17:37:38
subject: <b>Hmm...</b>
body:
It's theories like this that make me wish there was a 'thumb sideways' option... It's certainly an interesting idea... But I don't really want to commit to either of the yes/no options...<br /><br />Reminds me of this idea I had that floated into my head a while back that basically said that the Pattern is the Creator. No real proof for it, so it never went farther than my head, but this brought that back into my head...


created: 2002-05-07 16:52:10
subject: <b>but...</b>
body:
There is nothing but objects, and animals in the world of dreams. So therefore unless the Dark One entered it he would not be there.


created: 2002-05-07 21:54:55
subject: <b>I dunno</b>
body:
I don't thing Telhenrod is really the wheel. I mean, I guess I can see where your coming from. But somehow I doubt it. If T. was the wheel, my guess is that someone would have been able to figure it out already. My guess is that it is just another dimension that humans can acces fairly easy. Though, it is an interesting theory....<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /> True Power is knowing that you can, but you don't. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-red.gif" border="0" /> -Deathbone1 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-green.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Current rank in Wse PTS: 164 out of top 1000 (7/8/03)<br />We are men of action. Lies do not become us.<br />Life finds a way.<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-10 15:24:58
subject: <b>I kinda like...</b>
body:
the idea that TAR is the hub of the wheel of time. Certainly the ages are the spokes of the wheel. Of course there is absolutely no eveidence of that, either. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Pronounced: &quot;Rand was here&quot;<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shakefist.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-29 09:51:22
subject: <b>Where?</b>
body:
Where does Verin say that about the Creator the Dark One and T'A'R?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Bob L. Sedai (a.k.a. Luge) <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /><br />Fighting off the Taint - <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tinfoilhat.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" />Thanks given to Burr, the ever-helpful theory critic<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />And to Light in the Night, fellow theorist extraordinaire<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Voted Best Screenname 1 (one) years in a row.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-09-05 22:43:25
subject: <b>no</b>
body:
The wheel weaves the pattern, which makes up the world/s, so how the hell can it be is the world/s?!?!?!?<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>It's not apples and oranges, but no one paying attention could compare these apples without noticing: <br />(a) one is 12 times bigger and <br />(b) both of them are rutabagas.</i></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-03 04:56:19
subject: <b>are you sure?</b>
body:
I thought men could sense women (the goosebumpes) but women could not sense men, Moggy tried to &quot;teach&quot; Elayne and co how but it just gave then headaches or something...where does it show women can sense men?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> Tweak <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Four17 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> Tai'Shan an Dovienya <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gandalf.gif" border="0" /> True Lord of Luck <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gandalf.gif" border="0" /> <br />Deviant's Older (but smaller) Brother</font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-03 05:55:53
subject: <b>this is ridiculous</b>
body:
I am not bashing you or the ideas in your theory, but I am bashing your form.<br /><br />Those 2 theories should have been combined as one, and I cannot believe that an admin actually posted both of them.  Especially in the sense that you just got 50 extra points...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ADA- AlannaDawn Anonymous-- helping wotmaniacs recovering from their AlanndaDawn Addictions in a dynamic new 12-step program.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-03 07:49:41
subject: <b>moggy tricked them</b>
body:
it says later when she's reunited with the DO she states the sensing men was a trick to give them head aches..and never have i seen a female channeler detect a male they didn't know channeled by anything to do with the power..the Red ajah seems to hear weird events and narrow it down to the male that channels by asking locals etc <br />


created: 2002-05-03 11:05:09
subject: <b>He's just to old</b>
body:
If Noal could channel, he would be slowed. That implies that he's hundreds of years  old. I'ld find that rather unprobably.<br /><br />(PS men can feel women channel, but not visa versa: in tSR, Egewene states she can't detect if Rand is channeling)


created: 2002-05-03 11:30:35
subject: <b>Aramis is right...</b>
body:
we know Farstrider's age from the account of the fall of Malkier in TEOTW....Malkier fell about 50 years before the events in TEOTW....Farstrider is described as a young man when he captured Cowan Fairheart....that would make him in his early seventies in WH....he looks it...thus, he can't channel.  case closed.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Da Mook<br /><br /><br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/220.gif" /><br /><br /><br /><i>&quot;You're not cute, you're a silver-fox sex god is what you are.&quot;  LiterateDog to me, of course<br /><br />&quot;snoop elsewhere&quot; -Pevara</i> <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-03 12:35:59
subject: <b>Theory edit.</b>
body:
I've combined the two theories into parts 1 and 2 of this theory.  If deleting the second theory doesn't immediately fix the points problem, we will take care of that soon.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="white">|</font>&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;<img src="images/personalsmilies/747.gif" /><br />Only so evil.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-03 13:27:59
subject: <b>OK</b>
body:
Well... you lay it out alright, but I don't agree:<br /><br />1. As others have stated, Charin/Farstrider would have slowed down and wouldn't be so old<br /><br />2. I dont think men can get better after going even partially crazy from the taint<br /><br />3. Remember how Nyn and Elayne kept touching their heads trying to remember after Moggy left them?  Same goes for Noal.  Graendal compulsed him, and now he's left trying to remember stuff.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="Plum">Gena Sedai</font></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-03 14:15:39
subject: <b>Noal</b>
body:
I too think that he has been compulsed, and that's why there are gaps in his memory. I am guessing that eventually, he will come across a copy of The Travels of Jain Farstrider and get his memory back.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Why on earth would anybody want to kidnap a groundhog?&quot;<br /><br />&quot;I can think of a few reasons, the pervert!&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-03 15:44:41
subject: <b>I disagree</b>
body:
Part 1 of your theory has no real proof. Just because he felt better when he entered a stedding doesn't mean he can channel, and Ishy's tendancy to use channelers as pawns offers no positive proof either. Furthermore, aramis pointed out that if Farstrider could channel, he would have Slowed.<br /><br />As for part 2 of your theory, I didn't find it sufficiently different from the previosly posted theory that Farstrider/Charin is under Graendal's control. Not that I don't agree, I merely think that that information was already covered.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> &quot;Those the gods wish to destroy, they first make mad&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> &quot;I would not mind you in my head, if you were not so clearly mad. -Lews Therin Telamon&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-03 15:57:21
subject: <b>IMO, Noal is Farstrider</b>
body:
but I doubt he can channel. When Noal first met Mat while Mat was being attacked by the gholam, the gholam ran away after being surprised by Noal. But if Noal could channel, the gholam would have sensed him a mile away, and would not have been surprised. The gholam does seem to have been effected by Mat wounding him when he thought he was indestructible, and he ran away pretty easily.<br /><br />I didn't think women could sense men, either. Thats right about Moggy trying to teach it, only to give them headaches. Cadsuane was a terangreal that can detect channeling, but as I recall (without looking), it does not differential between male and female channelers. And thats as close as I can think of a woman detecting a man. Unless I'm just wrong.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Pronounced: &quot;Rand was here&quot;<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shakefist.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-03 16:27:31
subject: <b>Gholam says wrong</b>
body:
the gholam can sense the OP. so if Noal had the OP he wouldnt have left till someone was dead. I also think he would have slowed and noal is real old. Can compulsion make you stop using the OP, or forget you have it. <br /><br />also the gholam was sent to kill AS so why is he still hanging around trying to kill matt. i thought there sole existence was to kill people with the OP. We also, know one killed Fel. has something snapped in the gholam's mind.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">loyal soldier to rand<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br />asassinator of the shadow &amp; meddling AS<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bobbafett.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /> <br />I am skilled with 2 swords, but I will toast your butt with Saidin in a heartbeat<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/uno.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-03 16:31:57
subject: <b>Just as a side note with the Women sensing men...</b>
body:
In tGH when Nyn takes her accepted test, her first test was against Aginor, and when he attacks her with the Power, shen not only senses it, but deflects it, too. Aginor freaks out because neither is thought to be possible, so I think that it can be done with a weave (sensing) even if it hasnt been discovered yet.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-03 17:21:58
subject: <b>can't channel in a Stedding</b>
body:
If Noal/Farstrider could channel, he would not have spent a few months vacationing in an Ogier Stedding.<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/thom.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-05-03 18:47:16
subject: <b>Noal is a tool</b>
body:
In the series on numerous occasions we have seen chosen help one of the Main chars by sending a pawn to attempt to kill them only to be stoped by another one of the chosens pawns in an effort to gain trust with the char.  Case in point the assasination attempt on Elyane was only meant to get a DF in place as the head of her gaurds.  So Noal is probably just a DF sent to curry favor with Mat.  <br /><br />If what I have stated above makes no sense to you and you still don't understand why the Gholam would attack Mat just think back to when Mat defeated it in Rahad.


created: 2002-05-03 20:27:22
subject: <b>Okay..</b>
body:
GG is correct Nyneave could sense Aginor preparing weaves.  She couldn't see what he was weaving but could instinctivly sense what Aginor was preparing.  Also if you go mad or partially mad, going into a stedding shouldn't reverse the effects of the taint.<br /><br />Columbo is on the case.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-03 23:26:40
subject: <b>Nynaeve sensing Aginor</b>
body:
Wow! I must have not have noticed that, to be sure something I am going to look for. Nynaeve is my fav female char, and I would not be a bit surprised for her to figure out how to sense a man. <br /><br />I am also going to be looking into a theory I have about Nynaeve's second block, which is an idea I have been kicking around that she is holding back on how much of the OP she can really channel. I am sure I am not the only one who was a little disapointed when there were other women who were stronger then Nynaeve that were not forsaken. Yet I seem to recall some line in one book after her incounter with Moggy that she didn't know how she was able to draw enough of the OP to defeat her, as she can't seem to draw that much again.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Why on earth would anybody want to kidnap a groundhog?&quot;<br /><br />&quot;I can think of a few reasons, the pervert!&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-04 10:30:16
subject: <b>he can't</b>
body:
it's very simple , he can't , caus if he could , he would have gone crazy. The taint can be held of for some time , but not that long.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">His name is not an<br />Hava is not a word<br />He has no inn<br />He is an hava inn</font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-04 13:20:07
subject: <b>On steddings</b>
body:
Steddings may help the effects of the taint dissipate. Remember Rand in Far Madding, which is a small, portable stedding, and that he went there to recover from the effects of the taint (the seizing problem and others).<br /><br />Also, I think it was in TGH, it was told how the Ogier let male Aes Sedai into the stedding so they could not channel. Those males went willingly.<br /><br />We don't know enough of the effects of the taint to make snappy judgements. The Aes Sedai hold that the madness cannot be healed, yet in the prologue to the first book, Ishamael does just that to Lews Therin. And everyone held that severing was unhealable. Doh.<br /><br />With the Aes Sedai knee-jerk reactions to men channeling, hunt down, return to Tar Valon, sever and then keep them around until they die, I don't think anyone's bothered to investigate alternatives.<br /><br />BTW, I don't think Noal can channel, unless he's Demandred getting close to Mat. Now that would be funny.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />   the Harvester of Mankind    <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />      the Thief of Years       <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />     the Slayer of Worlds      <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />     the Ultimate Reality      <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Blog - brucetheloon.blogspot.com</font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-04 16:21:58
subject: <b>It was in the test for Accepted</b>
body:
Nynaeve sensed Aginor in her test for Accepted.  I think this was some fluke of the ter'angreal that is not possible in actuality.  Nynaeve also was much stronger than Aginor in this place, but we know that Aginor is much stronger.  I dont think it is possible for a woman to channel and detect a male channeler.  It has been stated many times and although that doesnt make it true I still dont think it will happen.


created: 2002-05-04 22:18:21
subject: <b>Nynaeve's Test</b>
body:
The test comes from the mind of the taker according to the Aes Sedai.  Nynaeve's skill of feeling a man's channeling could be true in real life (just like death, or life, is final when she is in that particular ter-angreal).  Aginor shouts, &quot;No!  You cannot!  You must not be able to!&quot;  when she deflects his flows.  This implies that, yes, she can feel channeling, and no, no one else has ever done it before. Most of yall are right.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Guy who likes to play basketball and wants sports in Randland other than sha'je <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br />Master player of stones <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gimli.gif" border="0" /><br />Generally a good guy <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-05 13:32:13
subject: <b>Nynaeve doesn't prove anything</b>
body:
She's been around male channelers in her normal life waaaay too frequently without any recognition of their channeling for us to accept the Accepted's Test as proof that she can sense it.<br /><br />I'm not saying it's wrong; but for something that is obviously not entirely real to be taken as fact, I'd really want to see some support in her daily life.  The inconsistency doesn't help the case (hurts it, actually). <br /><br />Nyn/Aginor may be the case, but if so, then it's very poor writing by Jordan, since he never shows it again in 10 books in a standard situation.  So I don't think she can.


created: 2002-05-05 21:10:33
subject: <b>Nynaeve and Aginor</b>
body:
The reason Aginor shouts, &quot;No! You cannot! You must not be able to!&quot;  is because Nynaeve shouldn't be able to channel at all in the Accepted ter'angreal. It had nothing to do with sensing male channelling.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> &quot;Those the gods wish to destroy, they first make mad&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> &quot;I would not mind you in my head, if you were not so clearly mad. -Lews Therin Telamon&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-05 23:05:10
subject: <b>Too old.</b>
body:
Ok, Noal has got to be in his 70`s. Men begin to channel around 20 or so. That is roughly 50 years of channeling. Rand is amazed to find that Taim (a man in his mid years, no sign of grey) was able to resist the taint so long. It would be relatively impossible for a man to last 50 years while channeling, and not go mad. Even if did only channel rarely, look at Owyn, Thom`s channeling relative. He lasted a year or so, only channeling when he ABSOLUTLY had to. How could a man last 50?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Lugh of the Vanth<br />Prince of Coolavin<br />Lord of the Darmods<br /><br />&quot;If you must mount the gallows, give a jest to the crowd, a coin to the hangman, and make the drop with a smile on your lips.&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-06 13:35:04
subject: <b>Re. Nynaeve</b>
body:
Remember that when Egwene was tested for accepted, she came out and asked if 13 BA and 13 Mydraal could turn a person against their will, and the answer was yes, but most people don't know that. This indicates to me that maybe Nyn WILL discover a way to sense men channeling. After all, men can sense women, and so much of the book is based on everything being balanced.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Pronounced: &quot;Rand was here&quot;<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shakefist.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-06 18:09:54
subject: <b>I give way to the crowd</b>
body:
I have to admit that all of you have some very valid points.  It was only a thought I had earlier, and I'll admit that the evidence is that Noal cannot channel, so if Noal and Farstrider are the same, then Farstrider probably cannot either.  I had the thought when I read tEotW for the first time, and just wanted to see what people would think.<br />I'm not sure what exactly upset you about my theory Matrimony, but I was just posting a thought.<br />Overall, I have to admit that I'm probably wrong, but it was just a thought.  As to women being able to sense a man's channeling though, I have not yet seen conclusive proof that it can be done, and until I do I can only assume it is not possible.


created: 2002-05-08 01:29:07
subject: <b>to stuff up that idea.....</b>
body:
Nyn CANNOT sense aginor in the accepted test, it says damn clearly, that she could not sense his weaves, but she was so deep within saidar she could feel the effects (like a lightning bolt forming) just quick enough to block him.  <br /><br /><br />remeber that test was sorta in another world, so maybe he was shouting about something else. (maybe she was stilled there?)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Seeking Aes Sedai for Bondage... uhh bonding. <br /><br />We rode on the winds of the rising storm,<br />We ran to the sounds of the thunder,<br />We danced among the lightning bolts,<br />and tore the world asunder.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-19 02:15:23
subject: <b>noal &quot;could&quot; channel</b>
body:
what if before he reached the stedding farstrider was gentled. then near death he entered a stedding were you cant feel the source at all. this might cause the death at the hands of gentling to abate and explain the aes sedai comments, because aes sedai would usually be the ones to gentle a man. than noal/jain leaves the stedding unslowed because he is no longer connected to the source.


created: 2002-05-20 09:08:22
subject: <b>Maybe...</b>
body:
But didn't Vanin see the old guy watching Carridin's palace? I know he said he never got a very good look at him but surely it would have tweaked some sort of memory when he saw him again.<br /><br />I suppose it's possible Jain could channel and then got severed. I never really thought about. I assumed the reason he got better in the stedding was that whatever was wrong with him was caused by the OP and the weave failed once he entered the stedding.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gandalf.gif" border="0" />It's all in fun until I get hurt.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" />It's still fun if you get hurt. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />If someone else gets hurt, who cares?<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gandalf.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-30 00:50:45
subject: <b>Seems to me...</b>
body:
that if Noal Charin was a wilder and spent a good deal of time in the stedding and being compelled by Ishamael he wouldn't have absorbed enough of the taint to be driven mad. I'm just assuming Ishmael doesn't let people go around with the ability to channel strongly in his present. And remember in The Eye of the World when Nynaeve was told that Jain Farstrider real name was Jain Charin... just a thought. I personally believe that Farstrider is vital in some way to the story. You notice how many times his books are mentioned? And how many times they mention him in The Eye of the World. And it's especially important in the Eye of the World because Jordan was still a young writer, thinking the series was going to be much shorter than it would turn out to be and he had not yet fully mastered the art of subtlety. I don't know if Noal can channel but there must be something special about him... some key to victory over the Dark One.


created: 2002-09-18 02:47:30
subject: <b>if stedding works like far madan.</b>
body:
If stedding works like far madan (how ever thats spelled) then compultion would make more scence, then him being aboul to channel.  because he could be sick and near death from the side effects of a bad compultion, but when he enters the stedding the effects of the power should last.  inless i am wrong about steddings.  anyways i could provide more proof but i dont feel like getting up.  but to me it makes more scence to say that<br />he was compulst, which didnt go right, and he entered the stedding, the effects wore off, he got better..


created: 2002-12-12 01:00:27
subject: <b>Maybe he can</b>
body:
Think of it this way, everyone who said something about Noal channeling has assumed that he was born with the spark. What if he could channel, but had to be taught. He then only started channeling in Shara, (they find anyone who can channel...Graendal said something about that.) So that he wouldn't have started to slow until he started channeling. Which would have put it in the right time frame. Then, maybe he was overcome with the taint quickly, as it happened to Owen. And that is when he went into the stedding.<br /><br />If he was compelled, then wouldn't it have taken effect agian once he left the stedding? Or is it completely abolished? Perhaps it would start working again after he got out of the stedding? OR, It is the simple fact that he had crossed the Aiel waste by himself that he was near death, I mean come on, that is pretty simple.<br /><br />Also, Women can not sense men channeling, It specifically said so when Nynaeve was in the Ter'angreal. Moggy admitted to the DO that what she taught them about &quot;sensing a male channeler&quot; was total BS, and that it only gave them a head ache, which is why they always felt the satisfied feeling from moggy through the adam when moggy had them do it.<br /><br />That's about it...i think i have run out of steam for today. Sorry so long.<br /><br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /> Remus Tabias <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> The early bird may get the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />


created: 2003-01-19 21:14:20
subject: <b>what if.....</b>
body:
.... 13 BA and 13 Myrrdrall could have turned him, if he COULD channel.... perhaps when Ishy Compelled? Compulsed? him, he tested to see whether he could channel... i don't remember Jain Charin being a noble or whatever BEFORE he became famous for being a &quot;young hero&quot; or whatever.... and isn't a sign of male channeling supposed to be luck??  sort of ta'veren-like stuff happenin??  i dunno.... so maybe the reason he only has X amount of taint-effect is because he was turned to the &quot;dark side&quot;.... more food for thought... <br /><br />cuz we haven't seen someone (that we know of) who was turned forcibly, so maybe they can do good and stuff..... who knows???


created: 2003-02-03 01:32:49
subject: <b>well i think were overlooking something pretty major here people..</b>
body:
the stories of Jain and Jaim are like the only mag in all randland (or the most popular), right? people of randland fear male channelars like normal people fear contortionists (thats some trippy stuff). Even consealing his ability to channel, there would be some things that just wouldn't add up. a story of a male channeler (or even a female channeler for that point) just wouldn't take to the crowds. instead of starting another theory post, im just gonna ask here.<br />what do you guys think of the possibility that Thom wrote the original tale of Jaim Farstrider. pretty cool, i think<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br />                                 matt<br />                              aka jango<br />                                     do or do not,<br />                                     there is no try</font><p></p>


created: 2003-09-15 15:46:08
subject: <b>Doubt it, there are other logical reasons, and it ruins his character</b>
body:
His sickness that drained away in the stedding might not have been the taint, but just the effects of Ishy's probable compultion leaving. If subjected to compulsion for long periods of time, it stands to reason that the subject may become ill. Since the power can't be used in the Stedding, it'd make sense that even a tied weave would fall apart and vanish.


created: 2002-05-03 13:45:47
subject: <b>Mat is essential to Rand</b>
body:
Keep in mind that more attempts at Mat's life have been made than any other person on the side of the Light.  Also keep in mind the prophecy.  I dont remember exactly but it intimates that Mat will be married to the Seanchan Princess and bring the Seanchan to Rand's side.  He will need the Damane and the rest to face the Dreadlords in Tarmon Gai'don.  <br /><br />Its either that or Mat will cause Civil War within the Seanchan since we know Suroth is a Dark Friend who usurps the throne.<br /><br />Just guesses but I cant think Mat CAN betray Rand.<br /><br />Thrasha


created: 2002-05-03 14:10:50
subject: <b>Mat and Rand</b>
body:
Sadly, I have thought of this too. I think it won't be by choice though. I think it will be a situation where Mat has to pick between the leser of two evils. The lesser being something that betray's Rand. This will most likely have something to do with the Aes Sedai on the balanec scales, but the how or why escape me.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Why on earth would anybody want to kidnap a groundhog?&quot;<br /><br />&quot;I can think of a few reasons, the pervert!&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-03 14:14:12
subject: <b>I don't think so.</b>
body:
During that little portal stone venture, we have Rand's POV, and we see all sorts of things that did not happen, and have no chance of happening - mostly because those particular futures hinged on decisions/actions that had already taken place.<br /><br />They were seeing glimpses of the thousands of other worlds spawned by decisions they didn't make, not by what actually happened.<br /><br />If Mat were on the path that would lead him to the betrayal of Rand, we would have seen some pretty significant differences in his decisions earlier on.  And if Mat were on a path to follow in Demandred's footsteps, he would have to have some measure of personal ambition &amp; pride - of which Mat has zero.<br /><br />Throughout the series, we've seen lots of characters get a glimpse of what might have happened, but we don't expect any of them to happen.  Like Moiraine hooking up with Rand, or Nynaeve wandering naked through a maze throwing fireballs at Aginor.<br /><br />[tangent]Although, perhaps that last one could be interpreted as symbolic of the situation throughout Winter's Heart . . . . .  [/tangent]


created: 2002-05-03 15:49:03
subject: <b>Landfear talked to Mat...</b>
body:
...in the tower during TDR. She told him &quot;you are more important than you know...you can have glory.&quot; If Isameal is to be beleived, and Rand turned to the Dark side in other turnings of the wheel (which, granted, is debatable), it is more than likely that Mat (some other Tavern close to the Dragon Reborn) was turned to the Dark in other turnings of the wheel. Thats what I though Lanfear was trying to do when I read that passage; trying to convert Mat.<br /><br />Of course, I don't think Mat will absolutely betray Rand. He may choose between the lesser of two evils, or something along that line. But Mat has too much of s sense of duty to totally betray Rand. He is always going against his wishes to remain safe, to save people's lives (Elayne, Nyn, Eg, Olver, etc.).<br /><br />Beside's I like Mat way too much for him to turn evil. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Pronounced: &quot;Rand was here&quot;<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shakefist.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-03 15:54:13
subject: <b>Not literally</b>
body:
&gt;I dont think Matt will betray Rand in in the literal sense. Its just that how would you feel if you found out your best friend was: <br />a)married to the enemy b)hanging with the enemy c)not protecting the people you asked him to protect. <br /><br />&gt;I think rand will feel betrayed by all of this Matt &amp; Seanchan business. so will everybody else knowing their feelings toward the seanchan.  <br /><br />&gt;I also find no similarities to demandred. Matt has basically had all this forced upon him by some entity or another. someone said &quot;it is better to accept greatness than have it forced upon you.&quot; Matt knows his duty is to be with Rand at TG, but he doesnt have to like it. Matt will be the greatest general on the side of the light.  <br /><br />Just think Matt against Deamandred in the X's an O's department. the lights best vs. the shadows best. I'll be on the side of the guy who's life is a gamble every day and wins. <br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">loyal soldier to rand<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br />asassinator of the shadow &amp; meddling AS<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bobbafett.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /> <br />I am skilled with 2 swords, but I will toast your butt with Saidin in a heartbeat<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/uno.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-03 16:23:13
subject: <b>DAMMIT! You beat me to it!</b>
body:
I was thinking of posting a theory on the similarities of Demandred and Mat, as they seem to be pretty similar. After all, Demandred keeps calling himself a gambler, mabye Mat's lost eye will have something to do with him? Nah, that's just thinking out loud since that would save the world.<br /><br />I would like to one day see a book about LTT and the AoL. If only because they say that the best friends make the worst enemies. After all, LTT was buddies with Sammael and Demandred <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-03 16:41:14
subject: <b>The main difference</b>
body:
is that Demandred and the rest of the Chosen hunger for power.  Mat doesn't envy Rand in any way, he is not jealous of the poewr that Rand has.  Demanded was both envious and jealous of Lews Therin before he joined the Shadow.  You can compare that they are both gamblers and great generals, but I think that the comparison ends there.  <br />


created: 2002-05-03 16:51:42
subject: <b>Dam &amp; Sam were jealous</b>
body:
i would like to read some of the other similarities between matt and deman. LTT,DEMAN, and SAMM all had one thing in common. they could channel. they were jealous of LTT's power and all the accolades he received. it was all about me and look what i did with those two. they couldn't share the lime-lite with LTT.  <br /><br />&gt;With Matt its a whole different story. we've seen matt already tell people he doesnt wanna be famous, he doesnt like the OP, and just wants to sit in an inn somewhere gamble, drink, and pinch a couple of barwinch's butts. matt wants to lead a quiet life, but the wheel has other ideas.  <br /><br />&gt;A book just about the AOL would be pretty awesome. All we ever get is bits an pieces. some crazy things have happened and i would like too read about them in detail.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">loyal soldier to rand<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br />asassinator of the shadow &amp; meddling AS<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bobbafett.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /> <br />I am skilled with 2 swords, but I will toast your butt with Saidin in a heartbeat<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/uno.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-03 17:04:04
subject: <b>sorry for the repeat Xdol</b>
body:
that is totally weird. i didnt read your post until after i posted mine. <br /><br />Why do a lot of people want Matt or perrin to go to the shadow. i think the shadow already has a serious advantage over the light. the DF all have a common goal to serve the DO. everybody on the light is against each other or screwing each other over. heck if the DO sat back and watched for a year i think the side of the light would do more damage than him right now. If any main character jumps ship right now the ship of the light will sink. with or without the 2rivers boys help.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">loyal soldier to rand<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br />asassinator of the shadow &amp; meddling AS<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bobbafett.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /> <br />I am skilled with 2 swords, but I will toast your butt with Saidin in a heartbeat<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/uno.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-03 17:33:10
subject: <b>Interesante...</b>
body:
I had forgotten about that Portal Stone incident.  Cool.  Of course, since it was a possible future and NOT a certain future, it probably won't happen.<br /><br />But he may well be put in a position where he is TEMPTED to betray Rand.  It may have something to do with that male a'dam (Sad Bracelets) and the tilting scale-Aes Sedai-gamble-left eye thing.  I mean, I wouldn't want to lose an eye and two Aes Sedai, although he may have to in order to save or free Rand from that a'dam.<br /><br />As to the similarities between Mat and Demandred:  I believe this is simply a result of the way Robert Jordan thinks.  His characters often have similar personality traits.  Graendal is lusty and busty, and so is Elayne.  Moridin is a cold SOB, and Rand is becoming quite similar.  Loial is thoughtful and gentle, and so is Perrin.  So Demandred was resentful of a colleague-turned-boss, and Mat is resentful of his friend-turned-world conquerer.  Coincidence?  I think yes.<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/avi.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br />


created: 2002-05-03 18:13:04
subject: <b>You left out.....</b>
body:
something important when discussing the portal stone.  Mat said he wouldn't betray Rand.  Obviously he saw himself making choices that resulted in betraying Rand.  You left out the fact that Ingtar also mentioned ' I'm not a Darkfriend&quot;  We find out later in the book from Ingtar that he made choices and deals with darkfriends that he thought would help his country ( Shinear ).  Not till later did he realize what he had done.  Maybe Mat will betray Rand thinking he is helping Rand.<br /><br />Also someone commented on Mat's visit with Lanfear in Tar Valon.  I just wanted to add that Lanfear also says &quot;  There is no need to convince you to seek out glory&quot;.  This conflicts with the idea that Mat wants nothing to do with Glory.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-03 19:18:35
subject: <b>Rand's Judas.</b>
body:
I'm reminded of another theory on how Rand is supposed to be a Christ-figure, with the stigmata references, and the being born of a Maiden and whatnot, and how he may also have a Judas.  Based on his comments about the Portal Stone visions, Mat seems to be the most likely candidate to be a Judas.  He's one of Rand's closest friends, as Judas was to Christ, and Judas didn't think he was betraying Christ, he though he was just setting up a meeting between him and the priests.  As stated above, Mat may betray Rand accidentally.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gandalf.gif" border="0" /> A true WOTism.org original <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />LONG LIVE WOTISM PARACHAT!!!!!<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Ardente Veritate Incendite Tenebras Mundi</font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-04 13:08:30
subject: <b>It would be interesting and just what Jordan would do.</b>
body:
There's Mat, cavorting with the Seanchan heir-apparent and Rand intent on doing serious damage to them. When Rand and Mat finally meet up, Rand may overreact to the presence of the Seanchan and Mat will step in. There may be a fight, during which Tuon may be killed, and Mat will leave Rand, taking the loyalty of the Band of the Red Hand with him. He won't join the Dark, but he certainly won't be helping Rand anymore.<br /><br />All this every country must be on the side of Rand is ridiculous. The real world is unlike that and I doubt that even a taveren like Rand could do it. He may get a massive section going in the same direction.<br /><br />This may also fulfil that bloody hand prophecy. (bloody hand=red hand)<br /><br />Just my 2c.<br /><br />BTW, Judas knew exactly what he was doing. It wasn't a misunderstanding and that is why he is reviled and why he killed himself afterwards.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />   the Harvester of Mankind    <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />      the Thief of Years       <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />     the Slayer of Worlds      <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />     the Ultimate Reality      <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Blog - brucetheloon.blogspot.com</font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-04 23:44:00
subject: <b>Depends . . .</b>
body:
on what you consider &quot;betrayal.&quot;  There's a possibility that Mat's connection to the Seanchan through Tuon will begin to chafe against his responsibilities to Rand.  It's possible that Mat in the future may be forced to do something against his will.  It's also very possible that when it comes down to the end, Rand will end up betraying everyone else.<br /><br />Now, hold your horses.  I'm not saying Rand will go to the Shadow; DFs will still clearly be his enemy, but we Rand growing harder and more ruthless with each book.  Though almost everyone sees the wisdom of supporting him, Rand has alienated nearly everyone at least once in the series (except for Min, perhaps, whom he simply annoys with his wreckless and unpredictable behavior).<br /><br />Perhaps Rand will believe that to best the Shadow, you must become harder than the Shadow.  In the Stone, the pursuit of Rahvin in Caemlyn, at Dumai's Wells, the invasion of Illian, the destruction of most of the Seanchan during PoD and in many other instances, Rand scared the crap outta everyone close to him with his ferocity and power.  Even with the taint gone, he's still a very ruthless leader.<br /><br />Probably necessary, I suppose, but nonetheless, he may be forced to sacrifice or abandon those he loves simply to destroy the shadow.  Plus he's still got Lews Therin for company.  Mat's a gambler, a carouser and for all his whining, not the sort to complain or go against Rand.  I think it's the Dragon Reborn we have to watch out for.<br /><br />Just a thought,<br /><br />-Braidtugger <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-05-05 15:07:24
subject: <b>Nada</b>
body:
While I agree that Mat may join, or even lead the Seanchan I think that Mat's viewing during the Portal Stone sequence means that in order for Rand to succeed that Mat can't betray him.


created: 2002-05-06 00:30:27
subject: <b>Aragorn_of_Wotism</b>
body:
That's a good point, but dont forget that Jordan twists and changes everything so that it's VERY different from what happened.<br /><br />Oh, and TheUltimateReality, Judas did not know that Christ would be killed, he was one of thousands of Jews who awaited a Messiah that they expected to be VERY different from Christ and his Ideals. Their vision of a Messiah was more like a Dune/Muad'Dib thing that a advocate of peace, and therefore Judas (as one of Jesus' closest friends, if not the closest) was just trying to give him a nudge in the right direction. That is, to finally shed his peaceful exterior and take up the sword against their oppressers and bring his huge following along with him thereby reclaiming Israel's sovergnity.<br /><br />But that's another story for another time <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br />Considering how RJ changes everything, mabye MAt's betrayal will come along the lines of Rand not wanting the Seanchan on his side PERIOD, and needing a nudge into a male a'dam <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> Or, knowing RJ, the true betrayer could be Perrin, as Mat's saving the world deal involves AS and we all know that Perrin has an insatiable hard-on for seeing them as helpless women. Then again, that doesnt explain why Mat seen a betrayl in HIS future. <br /><br />Meh.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-06 10:33:00
subject: <b>We Already Discussed This, Didn't We?</b>
body:
I remember the posts about a traitor.  I said that I thought there would be a traitor because not only Christ, but more importantly (from the WoT perspective) King Arthur was betrayed by Lancelot.<br /><br />I have had Mat fingered for the possible traitor for some time now.  It's not that he's going to go over to the Shadow, it's just that something might happen that would make him end up thwarting Rand's purposes and undermining the chances of the Light at the Last Battle.<br /><br />Watch out for those gamblers!!!<br /><br />Come on, Lucky 7!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Annoying wotmaniacs for 10 years.<br /><br />Oh, I don't have time for this. I have to go and buy a single piece of fruit with a coupon and then return it, making people wait behind me while I complain. - Prof. Farnsworth<br /> <br /><b>The Voice of Lews Therin</b><br /><br /></font><p><a href="http://www.waronterrortheboardgame.com/" target="_blank">Find out what WOT really means...</a></p><p></p>


created: 2002-05-06 11:02:34
subject: <b>haha!?</b>
body:
I kinda always seen Perrin as the one who'd betray Rand. He's always been able to resist his being Ta'veren better then Mat and stayed away from Rand when he needed to where whenever Rand needed Mat, Mat had to come to him he had no choice. Perrin has always been kinda quiet never really talking to anyone except Faile. Not sure if I remember correctly but was it not Perrin that was jealos of Rands growing power. Perrin just seems to fit your every day to day description of a darkfriend. While Mat is worried about Rand, I think Mat is going to eventually tell Rand to wake up. That he needs to be Rand and not the Dragon Reborn if he's going to win that he must strife to fight yet he must do so without forgetting who he really is. Perrin seems to like Rand the way he is while Mat is worried that Rand growing power is going to destroy Rand and only leave a battle worn , tired Dragon Reborn.


created: 2002-05-06 11:06:51
subject: <b>Mat cannot join the Shadow</b>
body:
Mat has no control over his destiny. He is too strongly intertwined in the pull of lesser ta'veren to greater ta'veren. <br />Mat must serve Rand, the Pattern will not allow any other state of events. Mat cannot turn to the Shadow,<br />Since that would not serve the needs of the Pattern. Mat couldn't even abandon Rand in TFOH.<br />There is no way he could turn to the Shadow.


created: 2002-05-06 11:19:03
subject: <b>I always thought...</b>
body:
That Mat would somehow betray Rand, but for his own good somehow. I think Mat's betrayal definitly ties in with the 'finn viewing of Mat 'giving up half the Light of the world to save the world'. Makes sense to me.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br /><i>I will try. Before surrendering to dreams or death, I will try.<font color="black"></font></i></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-06 14:02:56
subject: <b>Perrin's not all that tough.</b>
body:
Another slight tangent here, but I don't think Perrin was able to resist the ta'veren pull any better than Mat.  He's done exactly what the pattern &amp; Rand need him to do.<br /><br />On the surface, it seems like he escaped to help his friends/family, and ignored the &quot;more important&quot; problems in the world for a while.  But when we think about it more, that little sojourn to the Two Rivers has a pretty big significance in the larger scheme of things.<br /><br />For example, we know that the locking of the Waygate &amp; the resulting Trolloc massacre by Machin Shin took a EXTREMELY heavy toll on Trolloc &amp; Myrdraal numbers.  And the numbers killed in battle at Emond's field is nothing to sneeze at, either.  At the same time, the blight becomes quiet, and Trolloc raids in the borderlands all but cease.  Coincidence?  Doubtful.<br /><br />And with the blight all but silent, it's freed the Borderland nations to field a large army, who are already helping Elayne to stabilize her hold over Andor.  I'm certain they'll continue to prove influential as time rolls onward.<br /><br />Another series of events which are hardly insignificant is the whole Manatheren thing.  With Perrin helping the people of the Two Rivers realize who they really are, we're seeing the groundwork being laid for a new Manetheren.<br /><br />Now that Perrin has done what he needed to in the Two Rivers, we see him right back with Rand.  Saving him at Dumai's Wells, tracking down the Prophet, dealing with the Shaido, etc., etc.  Just as Mat has been forced to fill his role in the Pattern (finding the Bowl of the Winds, raising Gaidal Cain, dealing with the Gholam, plowing a Queen, freeing a crapload of damane, abducting Tuon, etc.).


created: 2002-05-06 19:30:28
subject: <b>Mat and Rand.</b>
body:
Mat does seem to be closer to Rand than Perrin is.  All through WH Mat kept getting dizzy and having those swirling visions of Rand any time he thought of him, and at one point Rand had a vision of Mat, and I think this has something to do with the ta'veren pull  I don't believe it was ever mentioned that Perrin had a vision of either.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gandalf.gif" border="0" /> A true WOTism.org original <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />LONG LIVE WOTISM PARACHAT!!!!!<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Ardente Veritate Incendite Tenebras Mundi</font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-07 07:49:13
subject: <b>Lets study the facts...</b>
body:
The base of the theory that mat will betray rand is becuse thats what he saw in the portal stone. But that is hardley somthing 2 base on.<br />Not even 1 thing that Rand saw could hapen. so why do u think that what mat saw will hapen.<br />The equvilation of mat and demondrad is incorect<br />Demandrad hated the Dargon becuse he took all the glory.<br />Mat hates glory. all he whant is a kiss and a game of dice.<br />Most proberly Mat will marey the daugter of the nine moons. My gusse is that he will b forced 2 take her 2 sinchan there his eye will b taken out. &quot;loos half the light of the world 2 save the light of the world&quot; and min's sighting of him wighing a eye.<br />And most probelry Rand will come 2 save him, get pised off at the queen of seanchen and frow her 2 jai. as the prophecis say &quot;he sahll bind the nine moons...&quot;<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" />What is time for a wolf?<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-07 15:26:52
subject: <b>Nynaeve</b>
body:
Another possible traitor is Nynaeve. In some stories it was she who eliminated Merlin and so made sure that king Arthur died and his kingdom was wiped out. If M had been free it would have possible that Arthur would have survived. <br />So there is small possibility that RJ will use Nynaeve as a traitor. Reason for that is that Rand and Moiraine have same attributes than Merlin and Arthur. He is great political leader and M is very strong magician and Rand's councillor, so it is possible that N will eliminate her or someone else who is as important to Rand like Merlin was to Arthur.<br /> In fact N hated Moiraine and she is wife of her ex-warder so I could see a possibility that jealous N will make sure that Moiraine will have somekind accident if she cames back.


created: 2002-05-07 18:07:05
subject: <b>Wolf 99</b>
body:
Was your comments posted in a secret code?  Or was it just a case of the worst spelling I've ever seen?  I'm not sure.  Maybe you could help me by shining some light my way.<br /><br />Anyways as you say Wolf 99, lets look at the facts:<br />1.  Ingtar was present at the portal stone.  Ingtar remarks to Verin &quot;I'm not a darkfriend&quot;  Later we find out he betrayed Shienar to the Shadow.  This means Wolf 99 that Mat might betray Rand in one of the ways shown to him ( a secret only known by Mat and myself).<br />2.And for my second point,  what was I going to say?  <br /><br />As you can see Columbo is on the case!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-07 18:40:48
subject: <b>Interesting theory....</b>
body:
...but I think you're reading too much into the Portal Stone thing. Remember, it was in tGH. This was before Rand was declared the Dragon Reborn. At this time, only 3 people at the Portal Stone, Mat, Perrin, and Verin, knew that Rand could channel. When Rand revealed himself to Mat earlier, Mat was very wary of Rand, and thought him to be dangerous. I think that when Mat saw his possible futures and betrayal, he saw himself telling the others in the camp that Rand could channel, thus causing Rand's death or some such. When he saw this future, Mat began to accept Rand's ability, and thus is still on his friend's side, instead of fighting him. I don't think the Portal Stone incident has relevance beyond that.<br /><br />Still, having said that, all the other comments about Mat and betrayal certainly are things to think on<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Memnoch Sedai<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" /> Devish Green <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /> Proud bonder of Vahn de Mac <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /><br />She who is very good <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /> At being very bad <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /><br />Member of the <font color="#0000FF">English</font> <font color="#FF0000">Quisition</font><br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/13777.gif" /> Sax is life....the rest is just details <img src="images/personalsmilies/13777.gif" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-07 21:42:17
subject: <b>Memnoch Sedai..</b>
body:
You may be right it has been a long time since the portal stone.  Well its been a long time for us since book 3.  As for how long its been in WOT not that long.  Maybe 2 yrs since the portal stone?  Also Ingtar had already commited the crimes that would named him darkfriend.  As you pointed out in your post Mat did reject Rand when he found out that Rand was able to channel and might be the Dragon.  Could Mat's betrayal been something as simple as that.  Mat like Ingtar seeing things already done?  <br /><br />Thanks for your thoughts Memnoch.<br /><br />Columbo is on the case!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-08 20:47:05
subject: <b>no way</b>
body:
There is no way that either Mat or Perrin will betray Rand.  To beat the DO Rand needs both of them.  Min sees the battle against the shadow as black sparks around Rand.  Rand by himself is swallowed by the sparks, but with Perrin the battle is even.  I believe if the three of them were together, the light sparks would be engulfing the blacke ones.  With Rands state of madness, he trusts few people, and even a betrayel to help him would see him lose that trust.  Therefore for Rand to triumph (which of course he will) Mat and Perrin must be 100% behind him.


created: 2002-05-09 18:24:46
subject: <b>no way</b>
body:
no way?  You do talk like a love child, luv child.  Your mixed up to.  Min sees something like a black hole around Rand,  Perrin,  Mat,  and Egwene.  Rand and company give off sparks which are being swallowed up by the black hole.  When Nyneave is added to the group Min says they produce enough sparks to almost fill the blackness.  Obviosly when together they are stronger.  I don't see this as a reason why Mat cannot betray Rand though.  Mat doesn't have to go over to the shadow to betray Rand.  As mentioned above there are a lot of ways Mat could possibly betray Rand and still be by his side at the last battle.<br /><br />Columbo is on the case!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-10 10:15:43
subject: <b>to columbo</b>
body:
i think that wolf 99 is from another country and therefore his grasp of the english language isn't on par with yours.  no need to be mean about it, though.  as for the theory, i posted this same theory a couple of months ago (complete with biblical similarities) and also submitted it to the &quot;jordan live chat&quot; questions.  of course, mat will not go over to the shadow.  but i do think he will do something that makes sense at the time and might end up being not so good for rand later.  again, it will also tie into mat's involvement with tuon and the seanchan.  lastly, i believe his &quot;betrayal&quot; will be the how and why he must give up half the light to save the other half.<br /><br />Carai Ellisande!


created: 2002-05-10 13:51:42
subject: <b>Wolf 99</b>
body:
Sorry for hacking on your spelling.  I was unaware of your situation.  You won't get any grief from me in the future.  Thanks prince.<br /><br />Columbo is on the case.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-10 14:15:36
subject: <b>Dark side of Mat</b>
body:
It is interesting, that Mat is seen in visions with two ravens on his shoulder, with talons in his flesh, but he doesn't seem to notice. Also, his signet ring has ravens on them. Also, he has been told that he will give up half the life of the world, so... All these give Mat a misterious dark side. While reading, I was always wondering which this will be, but I'll have to read and find out more, when more books are written...


created: 2002-07-24 11:57:00
subject: <b>Perrin would first</b>
body:
If anybody is going to betray Rand, I think Perrin would first.  His has shown time and again that he puts Failed and himeself above the greater good.  Mat on the other hand for all his complaining has never shirked his responsibility.  He has certainly put his life on the line for the women several times.  Mat is much closer to Rand than Perrin is too, ever since they became separated in TEotW, when Rand was the ONLY person Mat would trust, and Mat helped Rand when he had his sickness from touching the One Power for the first time.


created: 2002-08-18 00:02:55
subject:
<b>NEVER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!</b>

body:
Hello... Mat is the nicest character in the series. He has no personal ambition. He rarely gets angry. He protects women and children.<br /><br />When Mat said &quot;I would never betray you,&quot; He did not know Rand was the dragon. Remeber male channellers destroyed the world. Finding out your best friend could channel was like finding out he killed children and tortured little animals. Mat wasn't talking about betraying the dragon reborn to the DO. He was talking about spilling the beans on Rands channelling.<br /><br />Finally on this whole Jesus Judas thing if Rand is a chirst figure then Mat is a st peter not judas. Peter denied christ and felt so guilty about it that he never did so again...


created: 2002-10-24 15:44:08
subject: <b>Mat will not join the shadow.</b>
body:
That would be very unlikly.<br /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/seanchan.gif" border="0" /> &quot;In the light universe, I have been darkness. Perhaps in the dark world, I can be light.&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />&#8220;&#8230;.. I break the silence now because I want the facts known. If I am to be judged by those who come after me, let me be judged by truth&#8221;   Raistlin  Majere <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br />&#8220;Lunitari's idish, shirak, damen du!&#8221;  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />&#8220;Shirki muan&#8221; (Obey me) <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /><br />


created: 2002-11-30 13:16:42
subject: <b>Mat won't, because he's not Demandred</b>
body:
Mat isn't a gambler as a general, he merely enjoys the risk he's forced to take in battle.  The humor of Mat's situation is that he isn't inclined to heroics or see it as his duty, but he keeps finding himself in situations where his own survival and personal ethics demand that he take heroics risks. The entire battle with the Shaido, he was merely trying to keep the soldiers alive against a superior foe, but the he kept stumbling into greater trouble.  He mentioned the same thing happening against the Andorans he fought afterwards, and he and Moiraine theorized that his being taveren drew him to battle.  He plays it as safe as he possibly can.  The only time where he really &quot;gambles&quot; on a battlefield is in the ancestral memory part when he wakes up from being healed, and that wasn't him.  He uses defensive tactics and flanking manuvers against the Shaido, rather than diving right in and trusting to luck.  Gambling to Mat is a pasttime- in real life danger, he minimizes risks and worries about what can go wrong rather than trusting his luck, except when he is absolutely forced to.  For all that Elayne says &quot;...she was not Mat Cauthon...&quot; and doesn't like trusting to luck, she shows considrably more of a gambler's tendencies, what with her confrontations with the Borderlanders, reluctance to have a bodyguard, and her going against Andoran tradition and popular opinion to try building a large army out of foreigners.<br />Also Mat seemed horrified by the idea in the portal stone trip that he would betray Rand.  Ingtar's insistance that he walks in the light after the trip is explained when he tells Rand that he saw himself always sinking further into the Shadow in spite of telling himself he was doing this for his country and he could quit with a heroic deed like sounding the Horn.  What had horrified him was the idea that he could not be saved, which was why he was so insistant that he was a good guy.  By the same token, Mat was most horrified at the idea of betraying Rand.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


created: 2002-12-20 04:55:36
subject: <b>I kinda agree</b>
body:
At no point did the guy who posted the theory say that Mat would betray rand to the darkside or the DO.  I personally believe he will betray him or already has to a dregree as if in being with the seanchan and having a seanchan wife.<br /><br />Although this post has brought to my attention that Both Demandred and Mat are very good generals and are or were the greatest of their age.  Due to this i believe that Demandred will be around to the very end to command the trollocs in battle when they come, just as RJ saidabout them 'oh their comming alright'.<br /><br />and Mat will be there to command the forces of the light against Demandred to see who really is the greatest general of ALL Time!!!<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">For every instance of beauty, for every instance of triumph, many souls must be trampled - Hunter S Thomson.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-13 15:58:48
subject: <b>Egads, and wow....</b>
body:
How the tangents fly around here. Well, that's what makes it fun, I guess.<br /><br />The raven connections with Mat were all foreshadowings of his connection to the the Do9M. His ashanderei, which Tuon tried to buy from him after being unsuccessful at trying to buy HIM from Tylin; the signet ring, which has foxes, nine moons, and two ravens; Min's viewings; Egwene's dreams. They all aim to Tuon. As for Rand, another of the viewings was nine moons kneeling before him. Harder for that to happen with Mat betraying Rand. <br /><br />The interpretation of the prophecy regarding Mat's eye is not that hard to follow, and has been put well here numerous times by others. He must &quot;give up half the light of the world to save the light of the world&quot;, when coupled with the vision of his eye on a balance scale, suggests that he will lose his eye, apparently in an action he has a choice about, and somehow that will work for the good of the 'light of the world'. <br /><br />That such a choice is outside Mat's character is easy to refute. Harking back to TDR, just coming off the Gray Gull at Aringill with Thom, Mat says &quot;I'll help anyone who can pay, only fools in stories do something for nothing&quot;, then almost immediately tosses gold and silver coins to a woman with three small children who were obviously homeless and likely to starve. He plays the tough guy, but has a heart of gold, and does his duty every time. Grudgingly, at times, but he never fails.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> Call me Tim <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-05 18:36:39
subject: <b>Not what Mat was visualizing</b>
body:
When Mat saw himself in another lifetime betraying Rand, it wasn't something that is going to or might happen later on in any books. At that time in &quot;The Great Hunt&quot;, Mat and Perrin had just found out that Rand could channel and that he believed that it could be possible that he could actually be the Dragon Reborn. Mat saw himself in that other life betraying him to someone that he thought he could channel and that he thought he could be the Dragon Reborn. I'm not completely sure, but I think Mat could have seen himself betrayin Rand to the Red Ajah.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/egwene.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /> Aquaria<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-23 22:26:50
subject: <b>No way</b>
body:
Mat never likes doing things connected to Rand but he always does them and always ends up doing his duty one way or another.  There is no way Perrin or Mat will betray Rand.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Deep in the human unconscious is a pervasive need for a logical universe that makes sense.  But the real universe is always one step beyond logic.<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-03-11 10:19:33
subject: <b>Mat is the best!</b>
body:
I don'e agree how Mat will betray Rand. They have too much going with each other. They grew up together for craps sake! No author in their right mind would ever turn that kind of connection into betrayal. Rand already has too much going against him. I don't think R.J. would complicate things MORE with something like that. Come on, R.J. didn't ever wrap up anything in COT! He just made things more complicated! Mat would never betray Rand!<br /><br />The Gambler Reborn<br />(The faithfull friend!)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /> Having the Dark One's own luck rocks! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /><br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" />Despiser of Seanchan and Aes Sedai (and people who post novels!)  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /><br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> the King of the Dancing Banannas! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-05-04 19:30:47
subject: <b>NEVER!</b>
body:
<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> Mat would NEVER do such a thing.  Tsk tsk.  That's Perrin.  Ok, let's all pray that Perrin betrays Rand and Rand balefire's his @$$ down to Shayol Ghoul.  Him and his snippy little wench, Faile.  *Twitch* We don't like Faile, do we, precious <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" />? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" /> AH!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-05-17 19:38:45
subject: <b>Mat or Perrin Betrayer=NEVER</b>
body:
Neither Perrin nor Mat have EVER been jealous of anyone.Mat has had ambitions all along to battle the Seanchan.  After all, it was for that purpose that he wants Aludra`s firework secrets.<br /><br />Perrin has NEVER displayed any DF characteristics,<br /><br />DaemoneO:  Right on!  The Wheel{Pattern} and being Ta`veren has forced these 2 guys into their actions.  Sans being Ta`veren,  the same can be said of all the main characters-i.e.-Moiraine, Lan, Egwene, Nynaeve, Thom, Loial,etc etc.The plans of the Wheel have been laid since the end of the AoL, just as Ishy has been laying his.<br /><br />Aragorn of Wotism:  Perrin has also been seeing these whirls of color {in COT} but has been fighting them off, until at last the whirls persisted, and he saw Rand &amp; Ny in their Choedan Kal mode.<br /><br />ranonO:  I was going to enlidhten you, but someone a few replies up said it nicely.<br /><br />To All Those Who Think Rand IS Mad:  for the 100th time- Rand is NOT mad, he is sick from all that taint that has eaten away at his body!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2004-10-03 19:07:09
subject: <b>Has anybody been paying attention to Perrin??</b>
body:
Look, guys, Perrin is seriously screwed up after this last book.  Why has nobody noticed it?  He is solely intent upon getting Faile back at ANY costs.  So what about Min's viewing about Perrin having to be there to save Rand?  The first time was Dumai's Wells, and the second time seems to be shaping up to be Rand's sojourn down to Ebou Dar to meet with Semirhage.  Where's Perrin?  Dicking around with the Shaido!  Perrin's not going to &quot;turn to the dark side&quot; or anything, but simply by his absense, he will totally screw Rand over.<br /><br />As to the Mat betrayal thing, Mat has been pretty accepting of his role as responsible leader as of late.  Check out the ending of Book 7, when Mat has that internal monologue about how he feels 'responsbile' for Thom, Juilin, and the Redarms.  I think that book 7 is the transition from pissed-off-at-being-ta'veren Mat to responsible-leader Mat.  <br /><br />Perrin, on the other hand, is not fulfilling his obligations to Rand or to anyone.  After all, what did he say?  &quot;Burn the Pattern!  It can all burn, if it keeps her safe.&quot;  If he keeps on his present course, it'll burn all right...


created: 2004-10-16 11:00:42
subject: <b>...or an ignorant spy.</b>
body:
I really support this theory about Mat betraying Rand. But, I truly don't think that he will do it deliberately, which is also why I don't think that Perrin will betray Rand (because I don't think that any of it will be deliberate, and if Perrin did betray Rand, than it would definitely be on purpose - as a sort of trade for Faile's safety.) I think that Mat is an ignorant, sporadic spy for the Dark One. Yes, yes, I know - but before you all beat me blind, hear me out. <br /><br />1. Okay, we know that Mat is the one from the three ta'veren who is most likely to keep someting a secret. Rand and Perrin will fess up if they think it's important; Mat won't even then. So because of this, we know little to nothing about what was going on with him when they left Emond's Field, except for the few things he let slip. This could say alot, since that was the time when the three ta'veren were being made to choose which side to fight on. So, during the one book when the paths of the ta'veren were set, we see nothing of Mat, and then, when we finally do see inside his head, he can't remember any of the specifics.<br /><br />2. The easiest thing to get into, were the dreams with Ba'alzamon. Mat never talked about them, and for dreams that came almost every night, we only know of two: One was when he told Rand that he picked up the mini-carving of him (when Rand and Perrin didn't), and the second time was when he woke up exclaiming &quot;He took my eyes! Oh, Light! The Dark One took my eyes!&quot; There's a theory running around that in the dream when they were offered wine, Mat actually accepted, which then established the link between him and the Shadow. <br /><br />3. There are even times when people discover things that only Mat and Rand knew about. One example is when Mat was travelling to take charge of the army at Illian and Rand visits him secretly, and the next day everybody knew that the Dragon Reborn had been there.<br /><br />4. After the Portal Stone, we know that in every life Rand had channeled (which he can in real life) and that in every life Ingtar had been a darkfriend (which he was in real life.) There were more similarities too, but I won't get into them. So it stands to reason that Mat could have been a spy in each and every one of them (just like he could be in real life.) And you have him saying &quot;Rand, you know I would never tell anyone about-about you. You have to believe that!&quot;<br /><br />5. At one point in the series, Shaidar Haran (I think) mentioned that he had spies with each camp of players, and some of them did not know that they served.<br /><br />So the theory goes that every now and then the Dark One can see through Mat's left eye. And this ties in with the &quot;to give up half the light of the world to save the world&quot; because, when he finds out, it would be logical that he would take his eye in order to sever the link. But, I strongly stand by that theory.


created: 2004-11-07 07:32:51
subject: <b>&quot;Rand needs them both&quot;</b>
body:
Just getting tired of this argument. Yes, Rand needs both Mat and Perrin to win. But... He needs them both to do what?<br /><br />Betray him?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">The only way to convince me is by providing some evidence!</font><p></p>


created: 2006-06-10 15:40:51
subject: <b>dude that would friggin suck</b>
body:
@$$!!!<br />Man I like mat too much and anyways<br />mat's not evil he just cares about himself first and foremost.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">If life gives you lemons, squeeze the juice into a water gun and shoot other people in the eyes <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-05 14:58:08
subject: <b>Crazy Lews Therin is</b>
body:
not so crazy!  I like some of your ideas.  Good work.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-05 17:34:12
subject: <b>I dont think so.</b>
body:
I dont think so. If the forsaken really stoped trying to kill Rand then why in WH did 4 ash'man try to kill him on Taim's orders? Taim may or maynot be a forsaken but he is a dark friend. So if hes not a forsaken then he's following one of their orders.


created: 2002-05-05 17:38:17
subject: <b>For a guy with the username &quot;crazy ol Lews Therin&quot; you are very.....</b>
body:
um.....sane. <br />And smart. <br />Good theory. Me likes theory!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I am cool, are you? <br /><br />The kicker of the seals <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <br />The flame that burned down Tar Valon <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />My arse is the Amyrlin Seat</font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-05 18:04:48
subject: <b>chaos</b>
body:
would it creates more chaos if Rand had a fight whit one of the Forsaken because I think that a thing like that should result in a lot of chaos.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">When all your choices are bad make someone else choose and blame him.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-05 21:50:53
subject: <b>Three points...</b>
body:
1. You are absolutely right. i think everyone should agree with that.<br /><br />2. I dont think chaos weakens the seals, i think chaos STRENGTHENS the DO (which does in turn weaken the seals), but the seals are not weakened directly by chaos. the dark one is chaos and evil incarnate, so it makes sense that chaos gives him strength.<br /><br />3. Why didnt the seals weaken during the trolloc wars, or the whitecloak wars? surely there was enough chaos then too? i think that ONLY caused by Rand weakens the seals. i think that if the forsaken cause chaos, the seals will not weaken. thats why Rand is the lord of chaos; only chaos caused by him can set the dark one free. i dont think anyone could say he hasnt done a good job of causing chaos<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">-Attila, Shai'tan's Father.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /> &lt;----- What the hell is that?<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/berelain.gif" border="0" /> &lt;----- Mmm...<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> &lt;----- Retard!</font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-06 00:19:39
subject: <b>Good Work!</b>
body:
I like it!<br /><br />I think that we have to look at what the seals really are, though. We are told that they're focal points holding the prison shut, but what if they're more? Despite what your name says (<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />) LTT is NOT insane, IMHO, and therefore his thoughts are rational and have purpose, such as when he helped Rand in the box.<br /><br />If so, why does he want to smash the seals so badly? He knows that death is on it's way, so I dont think that it's a suicide thing, but then again, I have been known to be wrong.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br />From time to time.<br /><br />Seriously though, any thoughts on this?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-06 09:23:27
subject: <b>Nice theory, but I can't agree</b>
body:
About the DO keeping Rand alive.  I agree with this.  In fact there is direct evidence to this in LoC.  However, I believe that your explanation is too limiting to Rand.  Rand is a personfiation of both order and chaos.  His presense brings chaos, but his will creates order out of chaos.  What the DO seems to be doing is undermining Rand's will so that he cannot create order, but keeping him alive and free.  Thus leaving only chaos.<br /><br />Fel's note has even more implications then you give it.  Although I have to say that an increase in chaos weakens the seals (hadn't thought of that), it is not the important part.  The note is an answer to Rand's question &quot;why would I break the seals.&quot;  Fel's answer (I believe that Min will figure it out) was that as long as the old seals are in place a new seal (or making it as though there had been no bore) cannot be put into place.  Rand will have to break the seals in order to win.<br /><br />I think that the DO has more in mind for Rand that simply spreading chaos.  I think that Rand (more correctly the Dragon) is the only one capable of fully freeing the DO.  The most anyone else can do is reopen the bore (which would be a bad thing indeed, but it is quite different).  On the flip side the Dragon is also the only one who can fully seal up the DO.<br /><br />


created: 2002-05-06 11:02:48
subject: <b>No not really</b>
body:
The Dark One wants the seals to stay intact for as long as possible, to let Chaos spread.<br />The the longer the Last Battle is delayed, the longer the Lord of Chaos is allowed to rule, and the more Chaos is<br />spread, and the easier it is for the Shadow to win when the Last battle finally comes along.<br /><br />Rand's last question to Fel had been &quot;can of a good reason to break the seals.&quot;<br /><br />Fel's response was &quot;you have to clear the rubble to build anew.&quot; Fel was going to tell <br />Rand to immediately break the Seals, in order to bring on the Last Battle and unite the forces of the Light.<br /><br />There is nothing the Dark one would like more than for the seals to stay in tact.<br /><br />Don't forget a seal has broken every time the light wins a small battle against the Shadow.<br />Rand has defeated Ishamael. Seals breaking is a sign of the Light winning, not the Shadow.


created: 2002-05-06 13:03:07
subject: <b>Rand brings Order</b>
body:
Being taveren, Rand does bring chaos, but is just as likely to bring order. He forces the pattern around him, but everything that happens has a chance of happening een without him around. And Rand is unifying the nations more than anyone since Hawkwing. This in itself is bringing order to warring states. In short, I don't think that Rand brings chaos just by being alive.<br /><br />OTOH, the DO does, indeed, want chaos. And it is being supplied in ample amounts by the Seanchan, the WC's, the rouge Aiel; all of whom are being controlled at least somewhat by the Forsaken.<br /><br />I agree with Beeker, in that I think Min will puzzle out the clues left by Fel. Why else would it be pointed out so often that she still has the note. And it does seem as though Rand may have to break the seals to induce the last battle, as pointed out by TelJanin.<br /><br />Other than that, I liked the thoery, and thought you used good logic. There is definately some connection between Rand and the seals, and the Dark One.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Pronounced: &quot;Rand was here&quot;<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shakefist.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-06 14:17:33
subject: <b>Stupidly Shortsighted Heroes</b>
body:
Chaos can't possibly weaken the seals.<br />Stop and think, why were the seals created, and when were they created?  They were created to seal the DO in his prison.  When? At the Breaking of the Age.  Now, they knew good and well the Age was Breaking, only an idiot would think things could go back to the way they were after that.  So what follows the breaking, a time of great chaos while the world tries to put itself back together again.  Now WHY would they seal up the prison and make the locks weak to something that was imminent?  Its like knowing your going up against someone with a flamethrower, and taking a wooden shield.<br /><br />So either the seals can't be weakened by chaos, or the heroes were so stupidy shortsighted that they couldn't see a time of chaos coming up right after the breaking.<br /><br />Anyway, if chaos could break the seals, then they would have been broken already.  Several times in the series its mentioned that the Taint (the DO's counterstroke for being imprisoned), drove the male Aes Sedie insane, and their power plunged the world into chaos and nearly Broke it again.  Now if the series has told us anything, its that it takes a while to go insane (the stedding delayed the males from going insane for a while, so it isn't like the initial counterstroke was so strong that it instantly drove them all mad).  So if the seals are so weak to chaos, how is that Rand running around stirring up trouble can break them when a near Second Breaking couldn't?


created: 2002-05-06 16:09:37
subject: <b>like the idea</b>
body:
I like the idea about Rand needing to break the seals so he can reseal the bore good as new, but I don't think that it is just order that the seals represent.  I remember reading about evil bubbles rising up from the DO's prison to settle on the patteren and this was cause because the seals were weakening. If that was just caused by chaos (like the last guy said) didn't the seals break during the trolloc wars.  I think the answer to that is that Rand is forcing the weave of the pattern.  Perhaps the seals are directly tied to the weaving of the pattern and power the pattern has.  With Rand taking some of that away perhaps that is causeing the weakening.  <br /><br />I like the idea I just think that the chaos theory needs a slight bit of work.  I do agree with your interpretation of Fel's note.


created: 2002-05-06 16:53:57
subject: <b>I thought the DO wanted Rand to be Nae'blis</b>
body:
First of all, why would the Dark One call Rand the Lord of Chaos?  And why would chaos weaken the seals?  Fel just said that order is Rand's strength.  He didn't say it was &quot;vital to the fate of the world&quot;.  He also said that he has to &quot;clear the rubble&quot; before he can build.  That could mean he has to break the seals.  Other people have said it.<br /><br />No, the reason the DO wants Rand alive is because if he wanted to make the Nae'blis the most powerful channeller, who would be a better pick than the Dragon?  That's why Ishy wants to turn Rand, and why he's currently Nae'blis (becuase he's the only one who's actually worked to try to do what the DO really wants).<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Annoying wotmaniacs for 10 years.<br /><br />Oh, I don't have time for this. I have to go and buy a single piece of fruit with a coupon and then return it, making people wait behind me while I complain. - Prof. Farnsworth<br /> <br /><b>The Voice of Lews Therin</b><br /><br /></font><p><a href="http://www.waronterrortheboardgame.com/" target="_blank">Find out what WOT really means...</a></p><p></p>


created: 2002-05-06 18:03:51
subject: <b>Random Rabble</b>
body:
I dont agree with the theory, because i think the seals need to be broken in order to reseal the DO. I think thats what Fel meant and why LTT wants to crush them so much.  <br /><br />If i remember corectly the seals were done without the help of saidar. i think Rand has figured this out in away. He knows things done with saidin &amp; saidar are usually more powerful than one left out.  <br /><br />conclusion; the seals are only keeping the DO away partially. as we can see the DO is still doing a lot of damage.  the seals now are an imperfect prison, and I believe the seals still carrie some of the taint in them.  <br /><br />Evil never triumphs because they never finish the job.  if the shadow wanted to win they would have killed rand way i the beginning. you never let the baddest man in the land stick around if you want to win a war. I think moridin has seen the future and knows rand will beat the DO and he will not be a slave any longer to the wheel.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">loyal soldier to rand<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br />asassinator of the shadow &amp; meddling AS<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bobbafett.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /> <br />I am skilled with 2 swords, but I will toast your butt with Saidin in a heartbeat<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/uno.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-07 07:46:55
subject: <b>Why Rand is the Lord of Chaos</b>
body:
The Lord of Chaos is the central figure of the Westland holiday known as the Feast of Fools. <br />It is a ritualed inversion in which someone is named Lord/Lady of Chaos/Misrule/Disorder.<br />On that day the only rule is that the &quot;Lord of Chaos&quot; must be allowed to rule no matter how silly the orders he gives<br />or how he misrules.<br /><br />The Dark One was making allusions to this holiday when he declared Rand the embodiment of the central figure<br />in the Feast of Fools. The idea is that Rand's rule will temporary and chaotic, and that allowing him to reign will<br />throw the forces of the Light into a chaotic state that will allow the Shadow an easy victory when the seals are<br />finally broken. The plan was essentially smart. Rand had caused chaos in every country he factored into.<br /><br />Cairhien was indirectly related to Rand's trip there. Chaos in Andor was Rand, The fighting in Arad Doman was over Rand.<br />The fighting in Shara was over Rand. The Borderland squabbles mentioned by Balwer were over Rand.<br />The rebellion in Tear was Rand fault. The Prophet's crazy reign in Gheladan was because of Rand.<br /><br />Rand is by very definition the Lord of Chaos.


created: 2002-05-07 08:16:17
subject: <b>Nice theory - with one corection</b>
body:
LTT is suposed 2 b reborn when the greatest need comes. He is not suposed 2 create the need.<br />Never the less what u say that chaos weekens the seel is quite sound.<br />After all, the aes seadi rule in the age of legends was a rule of order. The DO broght chaos. So when LTT locked him up he actuely whanted 2 bring back order. So amybe chaos dose infect the seals as it aposes the seals themselves.<br />Am I making sense?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" />What is time for a wolf?<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-07 08:36:47
subject: <b>What about belief?</b>
body:
I agree with the order interpretation of Fel's note, but where does belief come in to it? That is said even before order so must be kind of important, but no-one seems to be looking at it...<br /><br />Maybe that's a reference to the theory someone posted that a person needs to believe absolutely that something can be done to do it with the One Power? (egs are Nynaeve believing that stilling can be healed, Rand and cleansing Saidin). It works the other way too remember - one of the Asha'man has a block because he doesn't really BELIEVE that he can affect anything with the One Power at a distance, so his ability fades. <br /><br />So there's something that the good guys need to believe that they can do in order to win maybe...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /> Aes Sedai of the Green and Mat fan! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-07 20:28:18
subject: <b>I agree</b>
body:
If you would like to see more comments on this line of thinking look in the theories for the academics section about Fel. The name of the theory is Belief and Order Strengthen the Seals. A lot of people had some good stuff to say.


created: 2002-05-08 13:02:13
subject: <b>I am beginning to think that...</b>
body:
I am beginning to think that the riddle that Fel writes in his note is part of the riddle the Snakes gave Rand about cleaning Saidin.  Fel did say that the riddle involved high philosophical truths but that it didn't seem to apply.  I am not quite sure about the order and belief part, but clearing the rubble could be destroying Shadar Logoth.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">RabidWombat<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> Let the Lord of Rambling Thoughts rule <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> Proud owner of a 2 star rating! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /> Someone stole all my cookies <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-10 10:20:08
subject: <b>is this deja vu?</b>
body:
wow!  the last few posts i've read have been pieces of longer theories i submitted last year!  will someone say something new!?!?  i personally liked the mat-dema theory just becuase NOBODY had already stated it!<br /><br />Carai Ellisande!


created: 2002-05-20 15:54:13
subject: <b>Destroying the seals</b>
body:
Maybe LTT want to destroy the seals because they are made of cuendillar and it grow stronger if attacked.


created: 2002-06-22 00:33:21
subject: <b>Just call me silly!</b>
body:
First of all I am not totally convinced that it was Herid Fel who was killed in his study.I do not have the book in front of me but I vaguely remember a body was torn apart and it was assumed it was him. I would not be surprised if he came back in some future book with great advice.<br />Rand needs to break the seals, I have no logical explanation for this only that it scared the s__t out of Taim when he brought one of the seals.<br />I also think belief and order are the key for confronting the DO in the Last Battle. I do not believe Rand will try to seal him up again. Wether he gets knowledge from LTT about the mistake he made or learns it on his own, I think they will try to beat him another way-maybe some great sacrifice on Rands part or even LTT.<br />Sorry had to get that off my chest!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gandalf.gif" border="0" /> Ron T. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />&quot;The real world as in dreams, nothing is quite what it seems.&quot;<br /><br />&quot;There can be only one.&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-18 20:33:39
subject: <b>I don't agree</b>
body:
As has been stated by a few people,  Herid Fel's answer was in response to Rand's question about breaking the seals.  The old seals have to be removed before the hole can be repaired.<br />How Rand will figure it out is unsure, but Min does have the letter with her.  She kept it because it said she was pretty.  Rand will probably catch her reading it and realize the answer, or else Min the philosopher will figure it out on her own.<br />I agree with the comment that the patch was faulty because it lacked both saidar and saidin.  Rand's first exposure to this was the cleansing of saidin using both saidin and saidar together.  The hole can probably be healed using both in the proper place and time.  After all, Herid Fel said that at some point on the wheel of time the hole must be healed in order for it to be opened when the wheel turns again.


created: 2003-02-20 11:18:51
subject: <b>thoughts</b>
body:
This is completely irrelevent, but I dont think Taim is a Dark Friend.  Taim is hungry for power.  He believes no one can oppose his Ashaman.  He only cares about Rand for his Amnesty.  I think Rand will figure out he must break the seals.  He will probaly be commiserating with LTT and Min will say something that will give Rand the answer to Fel's answer.  I think it has become obvious that Min is becoming a full fledged philoserpher.  I also think that the seals were substaining the Taint on Saidin.  I think the Dark One want the seals to stay in place in order to keep the male channelers insane.  With out the Taint the world wont really be as bad as it was.  That is the only reason LTT would want the Seals destroyed.  Now that doesn't matter anymore.  Rand has cleansed Saidin so he is now Expandable.


created: 2003-02-26 01:45:19
subject: <b>Putting Order, Chaos and other things together -spoiler for CoT</b>
body:
Oke, So I agree that to seal the bore properly you would have to use both saidar and saidin. And of course cuendillar. Well isn't it just a wonderfull 'coincidence' that our dear amyrlin seat has figured out how to make this important substance. <br /><br />When you blend Chaos and Order then you get a pattern of where Chaos is the primairy factor and where Order is. Wow, A pattern. I think the Wheel of Time spins a pattern of Order and Chaos. <br /><br />So to make the seals as strong as possible you have to make them resistant to both Chaos and Order. <br /><br />To make the seals as strong as possible you have understand the true nature of the pattern woven by the Wheel of Time. -I am strongly under the impression that the male Aes Sedai did not have the proper understanding.- <br /><br />The purpose of the wheel is so that 'mankind' will learn how to balance Order and Chaos. Then the creator will return.<br /><br />IMHO<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Often you don't know whether a woman is friend, enemy, or lover until it is too late. Sometimes, she is all three.<br /> <u> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> -Thom Merrilin- <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> </u><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-03-10 23:09:01
subject: <b>hmmm</b>
body:
I like the thought that while Rand will eventually re-seal the Dark One, it is precisely Rand's chaotic effect on the world that breaks the seals in the first place.  The irony itself makes the theory very appealing (are there any posts on instances of dramatic irony in WoT, btw?  I think the Mat/Tuon relationship and the Aiel's dying for Rand to preserve the 'remnant of a remnant' provide examples of RJ structuring his story this way, am curious whether there are any more).<br /><br />At the same time, it is true that the Breaking was a much more chaotic era, that the seals tend to break in conjunction with major events, that Rand is a figure of order as much as of chaos -- all evidence against a simple 'Rand as instrument of chaos' theory.  Moreover, Fel's note does seems to suggest Rand must break down the old seal and create a new, seamless one.  The DO is not the only force who wants the seals removed; Fel is not afraid that Rand is 'inadvertently weakening the seals,' rather he is expressing his belief that Rand will eventually need to destroy these things.<br /><br />Why was Fel killed?  I couldn't tell you, though I'm not sure the DO has the intelligence and/or capability to know Fel had figured out something in particular and then order his murder in such a short time ... seems more likely he was simply long seen as a danger from afar.<br /><br />Still, good theory; it's important to remember the DO has an ambiguous relationship to killing Rand.


created: 2003-06-08 17:12:59
subject: <b>Min has Fel`s Books--</b>
body:
At least some of them.  Rand even alludes to Min being <br /><br /><br /><br />able to understand them, and he himself having trouble. I. too, agree the Seals have to be destroyed so the Bore can heal itself, whether by the Pattern or the Creator, I don`t know.  It certainly will not be patched again.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2003-08-18 10:57:06
subject: <b>Who said Lews Therin was ta'veren?</b>
body:
Please quote me the passage that says Lews Therin was ta'veren. Personally, if I believed that chaos did weaken the seals, I would claim that only chaos that ta'veren create weaken the seals. But by claiming that Lews Therin was ta'veren, you destroy your argument; if that was so, the seals would have been vaporized long ago. Good thing I'm neutral on this issue, otherwise I'd ripp your theory to shreds.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">We rode on the winds of the rising storm,<br />We ran to the sounds of the thunder.<br />We danced among the lightning bolts,<br />and tore the world assunder</font><p></p>


created: 2006-05-28 23:23:00
subject: <b>Been Reading Recluse?</b>
body:
I dont agree. Chaos weakening the seals? HOW? What would be the connection?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-07 18:18:36
subject: <b>A little info on balefire</b>
body:
Living things are destroyed in a different way then say a rock, the Balefire somehow effects the thread of that person removing it thus the whole person vanishes and there isn't just a whole like in say a rock.<br /><br />When rand Fights Rahvin there Bars of balefire leave wholes in the walls because they only ddestroy the stone they touch, since the stones are not threads in the patten the whole stone walls are not destroyed.<br /><br />The black Sister's Spray of Bale Fire is out of control, she doesn't know how to channel a bar of bale fire say 1 inch round and 5 long, thus excess balefire is used and it destroys so much of the walls that it crumbles under it's own weight.<br /><br />Moghedien's plan was to destroy the cabin and anyone in , but twist of fate has it it Mordin pets her soul this makes her jump and the balefire misses the cabin and hits the crew men.<br /><br />BakeFire has nothing to do with will or intent or anything it's just a weave,that can destroy the threads of the pattern and anything else we can think of.


created: 2002-05-07 18:47:21
subject:
<b><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> I Agree totally with Daymon</b>

body:
It has nothing to do with intent, other than indending how much Balefire you want to produce.<br /><br />Also, Rand did not use Balefire to bring back Avienda (sorry probably spelt wrong) he did it because he was: 1. Mad as hell and wanted revenge for Avienda's and Mat's death, 2. If you remember, he was loosing, and wanted to strike back with everything he had, as he would not get a second chance.<br /><br />


created: 2002-05-07 19:04:47
subject: <b>In reply</b>
body:
BUrr:<br />I dont't think that Rand used 'the necessary strength'.  I think that the intent of balefire is evident in the outcome and that if you were to use a stronger or weaker weave, it would not matter.  It would just be a psychological thing.  The weaver just believes that the strength matters, while really it is the intent that matters.  <br /><br />THe intent of Moghdien was to kill the ship.  That the two men were killed was not part of the intent but of the inevitable effects of balefire.  SHe intended to launch a weave, and to complete that weave, it just happened to have to go through them.  <br /><br />Daymon:<br />I was comparing the destruction of the ship to the destruction of the walls, not the walls to people.  Yes, a person should be utterly destroyed by balefire, but why would one inanimate object suffer more than the next?<br /><br />I forgot that the ter'angreal was hard to control.  <br /><br />That Morridin was involved doesn't change anything as the balefire would move to fast for any human reactions to make a difference.<br /><br /><br /><br />Also, thanks for posting.  Maybe I'll release an updated version of this theory at a later time.  Hopefully by then I'll work all the kinks out.  Thanks!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Wotmania Writers' Guild</font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-07 21:33:52
subject: <b>Ummm...don't think so...</b>
body:
Umm...no, intent doesn't really matter any more than it would on any other weave. Balefire is just a weave of the OP that destroys anything in its path. Though the unique properties are interesting, I don't think it means that intent is really used. Also if you read the encyclopedia on this website (yeah, thats right, click teh drop down menu and then click encyclopedia, and tehn click on Balefire) you'll see that it says, and I quote... &quot;The stronger the weave of balefire, the further back the thread was destroyed.&quot; This seems to put a huge hole in your theory considering that it says it depends how much power you put into the weave. Personally, when I read that fight scene, I saw Rand flailing about putting massive amounts of power into the weaves. Probably enough to kill a person a week back (sorry, little bad balefire humor). Same with Moggy, she seemed to kinda mad at seeing Nyn. Naturally, she filled herself with a lot of the one power (or was it TruePower? I can't remember) and basically tried to fry everything around teh boat and on the boat. That's what I got out of that scene as well, though it has been a while. Well, those were just my thoughts, hope they didn't seem to insulting<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /> True Power is knowing that you can, but you don't. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-red.gif" border="0" /> -Deathbone1 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-green.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Current rank in Wse PTS: 164 out of top 1000 (7/8/03)<br />We are men of action. Lies do not become us.<br />Life finds a way.<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-07 23:03:53
subject: <b>About Rand's use of balefire</b>
body:
He wasn't trying to blast Rahvin back far enough to return Mat, Aviendha, and Asmodean to the living. He was pissed that he'd lost Mat and Avi, not to mention the fact that Rahvin supposedly killed Morgase. It just happened to work out where they were back alive.<br /><br />As for the darkhounds, Rand used a small amount to kill them, thus nothing else was touched.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-05-08 00:23:45
subject: <b>erm</b>
body:
He may be right in a way about intent, to an extent, but that has nothing to do with the power of the weave.  If Rand did want to bring back someone who died by lets say a trolloc.  Then he would put enough power into it to accomplish the feat.  Though if he were mad and wasn't trying to do anything but kill then he wouldn't through out weak fireballs.  He'd send ones that could blow up villages.<br />


created: 2002-05-08 00:38:03
subject: <b>Dont quite....</b>
body:
I don't quite recall the details of the scene with Rand and Rahvin, but are you sure that Rand did not consider bringing Mat, Aviendha, Asmodean back?  Can someone please reply?<br /><br />It could have also hust been tavaren luck that this happened, but I still would not like to discard this part of my theory unless there are some certainties that it's wrong.<br /><br /><br />Also, what parts of the theory did you think were too wrong, or tooo skimpy on evidence, or too vague?  I'm going to rewrite this theory, and I want to take in some suggestions, as well as anything you may want to add.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Wotmania Writers' Guild</font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-08 04:43:06
subject: <b>I don't agree</b>
body:
I'm just re-reading the fight scene between Rahvin and Rand, and it doesn't mention anything at all about Rand actually intending to bring Aviendha and Mat back with Balefire. I'm not sure if this quote is worth anything but, <br />&quot;Rand let the balefire die... They [columns] did not flicker, as if what he had done was too strong even for this place to mend.&quot; pg 875 FoH.<br /><br />Now, there is a direct quote talking about the actual strength of balefire, not intent. And besides, why would Rand actually intend on destroying the wall? If he did not, then it would have flickered back.<br /><br />Also, I think you're looking a bit too deep into the whole inanimate wall object. Isn't it possible that Jordan simply wished to describe the destruction of a scene a different way? Not every single thing he writes has to hold some secret meaning.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">~ Tag ZERO<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" /> Worm <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /> Is that a sun, or a shuriken?<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> Spontaneous Combustion Man! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> I am not the Royal Jester. I am the Royal Fool!<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" /> WoT Women all sniff entirely too much <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /> All hail the Egorian Queen! .... King! King I say! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/disapprove.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-08 08:27:13
subject: <b>Hmm...</b>
body:
The only intent in Balesfire is the person conciously making it x long by x wide by x deep. Rand just wanted to make sure Rahvin was dead so he produced the strongest balefire he could do. This he realised later was good as it had brought his fri#iends back. Moggy wanted to kill Nyn but I think she slipped or something like that and ended up killing the band and slicing the ship, hence the movement back of teh boat in the water. This was not her intent so therefor, according to your theroey, how can she have killed them? The Back sister could not control the balefire as she was producing something she had never seen before. She I think she may also ahve been producing balefire that she was not powerful enough to control.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Pandora's Box - The Ultraviolet Catastrophe</font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-08 10:18:11
subject: <b>?????</b>
body:
ummmm, what about when a channeler weaves air to pick up a glass of wine, or to lift a human being????  different weaves? or does the weave divine intent?  I think not.  One can weave fire so as to burn the clothing off someone without touching their skin, or to level a mountain.  Same principle right?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Da Mook<br /><br /><br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/220.gif" /><br /><br /><br /><i>&quot;You're not cute, you're a silver-fox sex god is what you are.&quot;  LiterateDog to me, of course<br /><br />&quot;snoop elsewhere&quot; -Pevara</i> <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-08 11:05:10
subject: <b>....</b>
body:
i doubt that Rand was trying to save Asmodean, but did he even know at the time that Matrim and Aviendha was dead, between the anger of Rhavin killing Morgase and fighting for his life  he didn't have time to think. And I'm not sure but at the time when he fought Rhavin wasn't he fighting with LTT to keap his body. His anger and current struggle all but forced him to take a chance and end the fight he put all his anger into the balefire thus more OP. <br />As for the stones thats easier then sleeping. Just look at the stone out of the dream world they were untouched while in the dream world they had or have holes in them. The world of dreams  is not really part of the pattern and since Rand and Rhavin entered there in the body they were balefireing a reflection of the stones not the stones them selves, where as Moghedian had balefired the actual boat.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> We live and die, but which one comes first?<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-05-08 13:46:22
subject: <b>Just a side note</b>
body:
I am not really trying to prove you wrong (I disagree but that is not the intent of this post).  I saw that you were wrong when you said that Rand just wanted to destroy the darkhounds and so nothing else was destroyed.  &quot;Remebring what had happened before, Rand darted to one side as he channeled, the shaft of liquid white fire streaking by the door as it destroyed the Shadowspawn.  he had tried to make it less this time, to confine the destruction to the Darkhounds, but the thick wall at teh far end of the chamber had a shadowed hole in it.&quot;  His intent was to confine the destruction to the darkhounds but he still destroyed the wall.


created: 2002-05-08 14:41:33
subject: <b>Burr, why did you post this?</b>
body:
Half the stuff in here is completely inaccurate.  I'll go through point by point and prove it using actual quotes not what is barely remembered by the original poster.<br /><br />Rand never channels balefire in T'A'R up until he actually kills Rahvin.  The flashing back and forth is of the damage he caused in the real world.  The flashing is likely caused by the fact that all the World's of If have the same T'A'R which would mean that in at least some of them the battle between Rand and Rahvin would not occur or at least occur differently, hence the changing from solid walls to holes in the walls.<br /><br />There's no evidence that Rahvin is not a strong Dreamwalker, in fact considering that Rahvin almost magages to turn Rand into some kind of animal, not an easy task according to Moggy in tFoH, A Silver Arrow, &quot;There are only nine of us now who know that binding, and you would not want any of the others to have you any more than myself.&quot;  To me this implies that all of the Forsaken have quite a bit of knowledge about T'A'R.<br /><br />The balefire used against Nynaeve in tSR doesn't destroy the whole wall only the part that the balefire touches, exactly the same as Rand's and Rahvin's balefire in tFoH.<br /><br />Actually the balefire does continue through the Darkhounds, &quot;He had tried to make it less this time, to confine the destruction to the Darkhounds, but the thick wall at the far end of the chamber had a shadowed hole in it.  Not all the way through, he thought - it was hard to tell by moonlight - but he would have to fine his control of this weapon.&quot;  Again the balefire only causes a small hole in the wall, not the entire destruction of the wall.<br /><br />Moggy's intention was to kill Nynaeve, she was distracted which caused her to jerk the weave up to the middle of the ship instead of the cabin which is what killed the two men from the Band and the rowers.  <br /><br />Rand's last thought before killing Rahvin is, &quot;<i>Saidin</i> raged inside Rand, and he loosed it all.  Not to Heal.&quot;  His reaction to seeig Avi and Mat alive is one of surprise and joy, &quot;Balefire.  Balefire that burned a thread out of the Pattern.  The stronger that balefire was, the urther back that burning went.  And whatever that person had done <i>no longer had happened.</i>  He did not care if his blast had unraveled half the Pattern.  Not if this was the result.&quot;<br /><br /><b>So far as we know, everyone has their own style of weaving, but never two styles of weaving the same thing. Weaves can be stronger or weaker, or cut off, but no person knows two different styles of weaving balefire. Balefire is hot, liquid fire. It annihilates. We don&#8217;t know much about what balefire is, but it would have a lot of kinetic energy, and would travel faster because of this, if it were physical. If it were based on waves, then the massive heat would mean that the wave would move very quickly. I can rant on and on about physics, but the point is it moves quickly, so a weave of balefire will not be stopped by will.</b><br /><br />I don't even know what the point of all this is, however, you're wrong about the speed of balefire, in WH Dashiva lifts his hands to balefire Rand and at that same moment he is consumed by Elza's flame.  Also while highly unlikely it is possible to learn more than one way to weave anything, Avi thinks about this as she opens the gateway to leave Ebou Dar and how it's not the same way that she originally opened a gateway to escape Rand.  The general effect is that it is harder to perform the second learned version of the weave resulting in a weaker weave.<br /><br />Balefire can kill multiple people in one blow by being swung or just moved in a certain direction, like in aCoS after Rand kills Liah, &quot;Screaming, Rand swept the balefire down toward the square, . . .&quot;  Or because of Moggy's sudden jerk in direction her balefire cut the boat in half and also killed four men.<br /><br />Anyway, there's also Moiraine's quote on how the strength of balefire is what effects how far out of the Pattern someone is burned, &quot;The greater the power of balefire, the further back in time it ceases to exist.  The strongest I can manage will only remove a few seconds from the Pattern.  You are much stronger.  Very much so.&quot;<br />So I'm gonna have to say emphatically NO, balefire is just a weave that likely contains a large amount of Spirit, hence the reason it can burn threads out of the Pattern, but just a weave nontheless.<br /><br />Jim<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sir Jim<br />Lord of Minutia&#8482;<br />King of WoT MB Posts&#8482;<br /><br />Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-08 15:55:28
subject: <b>considering</b>
body:
I think that perhaps I'm a bit too unsure of some areas of the books, so I'm going to reread the whole series.  I've only read it once so far, but after reading it again, I'll pick up on things.  As I go along, I'll make notes on balefire, page references, etc., and I'll probably come to a revised and new theory later next month.  It'll probably be much more comprehensive as well.<br /><br />Thanks for the help, and please continue shredding apart my theory.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Wotmania Writers' Guild</font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-08 17:13:14
subject: <b>I agree with this theory (mostly)</b>
body:
My main argument is that we have proof that balefire &quot;goes through anything in its path&quot;.  What, then, makes balefire stop at a specific target?  Balefire must be guided by intent, else it would continue destroying everything before it while it circles the planet infinitely!  Balefire doesn't stop because of contact with a human, as is seen when Moghedien's balefire goes through and kills two of the Band before reaching Nynavae's ship.  Without a target destination in mind, nothing would ever stop a weave of balefire.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> Sa souvraya niende misain ye! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /> <b> Bill Billson, Emperor Grand Admiral of the Elements </b> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" />           And Supreme Prophet of the Cosmos          <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /><br />Member of the English Quisition <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-08 17:13:41
subject: <b>Just another 3 points on scale</b>
body:
I disagree completely.<br /><br />Firstly, Nynaeve was on a boat heading for a Sea Folk ship. Judging from the description of the scene, this was probably an 20-25 foot long boat (or about 6 metres). A very small target when compared to the walls of a palace or fortress which are probably 20 feet tall, many feet long and easily 2-3 feet thick.<br /><br />Secondly, the boat wasn't destroyed, it was sliced in half. Remember Nynaeve was trapped in the cabin section as it sank.<br /><br />Lastly, recall that the balefire ter'an'greal was marked as extremely difficult to control. Like a firehose held by one man, I guess.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />   the Harvester of Mankind    <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />      the Thief of Years       <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />     the Slayer of Worlds      <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />     the Ultimate Reality      <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Blog - brucetheloon.blogspot.com</font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-10 16:08:50
subject: <b>Cutting Off the Flows</b>
body:
I'm pretty sure that in the books there is a good reson for why balefire stops.  Rand is able to control finger-thin flows of balefire when he is destroying the Trollocs in Caemlyn after he kills Rahvin by cutting off the flows of The Power as soon as the balefire comes into contact with the object that he is aiming with.  If balefire didn't act in this way, it would keep on going forever, destroying everything that ever crossed its path, and we know that doesn't happen.<br />If someone can't see what they are aiming at, or don't cut off the flows in time, the balefire will go through walls until the flows are stopped.  What does everyone think of that?


created: 2002-06-05 21:24:11
subject: <b>Reply to Balefire</b>
body:
Here it is, my first wotmania post.  I'm very excited about my debut to the world... Okay, no pressure.  Here we go.<br /><br />The reason it seems to go as far as the channeler wants is because they just release the weave before it gets too far.  Rand just basically blasted Rhavin, so far that even the Darkhounds were gone.  Rand didn't pick a specific distance, he's just so powerful it happened.  Moggy was rushing, plus she was very far away, so she just blasted the boat. (Although it must have been much weaker balefire, as Rand's burned back to the beginning of FoH, and Moggy's just made the boat be a little more upstream).<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I amuse myself.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-02 15:10:59
subject: <b>Another point for Burr</b>
body:
Moghedien's will in the case of the boat was to kill Nyneave, but she was spooked and twitched.  The Balefire missed its intended target of the cabin and blew through the rest of the boat.  Direction, not intent, aims Balefire.  The amount of power used in the weave, not intent, determines the size of the Balefire.  I don't recall the exact references, but the Balefire of Rhavin was a hugh weave, I believe as big around as Rhavin was tall.  The Trollocs outside the palace in Camelyn, however, were small, thin threads, so they wouldn't go through their targets.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Questions, Comments, Thoughts?<br /><br />Geoff<br /><br />Artificial Intelligence <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/r2d2.gif" border="0" /> <br />is no match for<br />Natural Stupidity <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-07 01:03:25
subject: <b>Balephasers</b>
body:
I always thought of Balefire like phasers in Star Trek, set to &quot;vaporise&quot; or whatever, they just keep going until you stop pulling the trigger (before all those Trekkies get really mad, I know phasers have a range, and that there's quite alot of stuff they don't go through... but you get the point). The only reason it stops is that some of it is &quot;used&quot; destroying whatever it is destroying. ie. the balefire went few a few things because the &quot;trigger&quot; was &quot;pressed&quot; for a longer amount of time than when it didn't go through so much. <br />So to sum up... how much power you put into the weave governs how far back the thread is burned, how long you create the balefire for, strong or weak, is how much it can destoy.<br />I think that makes sense.


created: 2002-09-21 23:28:35
subject: <b>What about this</b>
body:
You said balefire can't be stopped in full swing, and basically it can only do what it is intended to do, but what about the end of ACOS? Rand balefires Leah, then swings it around to kill sammy, but how can he focus completely enough on 2 different things to do them both?


created: 2002-12-03 14:40:04
subject: <b>Balefire- subject to subconscious</b>
body:
I think that balefire may be subject to your subconscious will, not your conscious one.  When Rand kills Leah, then is able to swing around and kill Sammy, he is able to do so seemingly without thought because his subconscious picked up both threats.  Also, Rand is no ordinary balefire wielder; remember, he has what you might call a split personality.  Isn't it possible that Lews Therin lended his focus to the fight?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /> Angel of Cleira <br />Creator of her Own Universe <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /> and Ruler of her own World <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />*Frustrated Fan*  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />(I really am nice. . .really. . .)</font><p></p>


created: 2004-12-14 15:43:28
subject: <b>question</b>
body:
quick question: What would happen if someones feet (only his feet) were hit by balefire? Would the person have lived his entire life without feet, would he be destroyed completely or something else? And what would happen if one was hit in his chest with a very thin ray of balefire?


created: 2008-03-19 03:57:11
subject: <b>Can't Swing Balefire?</b>
body:
I Can't remember where this was in the series (don't have my books with me) but I think I remember Rand swinging his balefire through multiple enemies. Anyone else remember something like this or is it just me?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-08 11:10:29
subject: <b>*nods*</b>
body:
Lather, rinse, repeat. Always repeat.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br /><i>I will try. Before surrendering to dreams or death, I will try.<font color="black"></font></i></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-08 11:14:55
subject: <b>...</b>
body:
...then tumble-dry for that perfect snowy-cloak softness. Whitecloaks use Downy.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br /><i>I will try. Before surrendering to dreams or death, I will try.<font color="black"></font></i></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-08 11:43:46
subject: <b>*Stunned*</b>
body:
You knew this as well?!?!?! Thou must be a darkfriend to know our secrets!!!! I shall turn you over to the Questioners so you may be tort.... persuaded to come back to the light and not give away our real motives. <br />*Walks off cackling*<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /> True Power is knowing that you can, but you don't. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-red.gif" border="0" /> -Deathbone1 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-green.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Current rank in Wse PTS: 164 out of top 1000 (7/8/03)<br />We are men of action. Lies do not become us.<br />Life finds a way.<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-09 02:32:36
subject: <b>Yup!</b>
body:
I absolutely agree.  How else would you expect their white cloaks to be so white?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">the itsy bitsy spider always lies<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/avi.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-11 16:52:47
subject: <b>This theory is preposterous</b>
body:
First of all, again I must object to the derogatory term &quot;Whitecloak&quot;, it is slanderous and offensive.<br /><br />Second of all, to suggest that the Children of the Light use or have ever used the One Power, the dark sorcery that broke the world, is blasphemy.  All who walk in the light know that the Children vehemently oppose the use of that evil power.  We are not Tar Valon witches!  <br /><br />Everyone knows that the reason the Children remain so clean is that the light shines on us.  It is the light itself that does our laundry... hmmff... <br /><br />The Lord Captain Commander <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-05-13 16:46:18
subject: <b>Is Weiramon a Child?</b>
body:
Is Weiramon one of your agents? After all he seems to have similar ability to keep his clothes clean.


created: 2002-06-07 09:53:56
subject: <b>As to your shocking revelation...</b>
body:
Out damned spot, OUT!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> It's only a flesh wound <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-18 17:23:44
subject: <b>i totally agree...</b>
body:
leave it to whitecloaks to reveal their secrets in their laundry. this theory sent me rolling. nice!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Egwene the Dreamer <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/egwene.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />the shy aes sedai <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shy.gif" border="0" /><br />with her head in a book <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-27 02:52:17
subject: <b>Well, naturally. I thought everyone knew that.</b>
body:
It would be just too tempting to drop some red dye into the wash. Since we don't see any Pinkcloaks around, they must have some secret...


created: 2002-10-11 01:10:29
subject: <b>There's also more evidence</b>
body:
That also explains why some of their people are such good swordsmen, i.e. Eamon Valda being a Blademaster. They use the void, enhancing their abilities.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/seanchan.gif" border="0" />&quot;The Black Knight Always triumphs!!!!!&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-27 00:42:39
subject: <b>What about</b>
body:
Scotch guard, perhaps white cloaks preserved a form of scotch guard to keep their cloaks from dirty.


created: 2004-10-06 21:52:17
subject: <b>that's great...?</b>
body:
You are an idiot. The Whitecloaks Cloaks are white because they use the Fleece of magical Two-Rivers Sheep.<br /><br />Plus, Robert Jordan has a fetish for white, so he invented whitecloaks, and the 'WHITE' Tower, and WHITEbridge, and the WHITE ajah.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" />The <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> Weaves as the <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> Wills.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /><br />But Screw Robert Jordan<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" />! He killed Asmodean!<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /><br />Demandred is cool.. but I'm still...<br /><br />Asmodean's Number 1 Fan<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" />!!!</font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-09 03:50:51
subject: <b>The singers of the song...</b>
body:
if there is a special &quot;qualification&quot; to be a seed singer and all of them were Aiel, this may have to do with channelling. perhaps all the people who had the spark in them made good seed singers... or it could just be a lost talent like the tinkers think it is. if the song and talent are found again then this will just make the series all the more longer due to the fact that the &quot;talented&quot; people are going to have to teach others this this lost talent so that they may help to reduce the blight <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" />Ervs Ironfist<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /><br />-escape is not an option <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /><br />&quot;The only thing I know is that i know nothing&quot;-Socrates <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/thom.gif" border="0" /> <br />&quot;We stand alone&quot;-Pantera</font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-09 09:26:13
subject: <b>actually</b>
body:
we know it was not the men with the spark in them, because... or at least, I seem to remember... somebody was thinking that he was glad he had not passed the test to become Aes Sedai, but was glad anyway, because he could now sing.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> <font color="a52a2a">Magnus Alexander corpore parvus erat </font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <font color="b8860b">Dissenting voice of wotmania</font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <br /><font color="6495ed">Frightfully stubborn pacifist</font> <br /><br /><i><font color="669900"> Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent</font></i></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-09 09:27:16
subject: <b>a few thoughts.....</b>
body:
First, I believe that singing was a talent.  In the prologue of TEOTW, crazy Lews Therin asks Ishamael if he has the Voice-capital V.  That almost always indicates a talent.<br /><br />Second, in order to have full effectiveness, the singing required the participation of Ogier, and at least one Nym.  According to the guide, the Nym were living ter'angreal.  Since we know that ter'angreal were made to use the One Power for a specific purpose,  we can assume that the purpose was the singing.  So, without a Nym, it ain't gonna work.<br /><br />Third, my impression of the Aiel singing as the mad Aes Sedai killed them was that they were just trying to remind him of what they did-and thus by extension what his purpose (servant of all) had been.  <br /><br />Last, the Aiel who abandoned the wagons to become the Lost Ones spoke of the songs they used to sing as a remembrance of what was and a wish of what might be again.  Kind of like the way men of the Borderlands say &quot;Peace.&quot;  Personally, I don't think there is a magical song that will make everything hunky-dory again.  I think that &quot;finding the song&quot; is a metaphor for what must occur for  &quot;a remnant of a remnant to be saved&quot;:  the Aiel and Tinkers must willingly give up their own ways (both of which failed the task the Aes Sedai had given them) and rediscover what they once were together for any of them to remain.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Da Mook<br /><br /><br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/220.gif" /><br /><br /><br /><i>&quot;You're not cute, you're a silver-fox sex god is what you are.&quot;  LiterateDog to me, of course<br /><br />&quot;snoop elsewhere&quot; -Pevara</i> <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-09 12:14:41
subject: <b>Parts, no, most, no</b>
body:
While the theory is interesting, it doesnt' seem to work. I mean, think about it. Those 10000 Aiel that died, didn't accomplish anything other than giving time for the others to escape and getting killed themselves. They didn't get him to remembre anything. And if you say that he was almost remembering on the last one but didn't because they didn't have the entire song doesn't work either because there were over 10000 Aiel there as well, some of them woulda known. I think hte mad man was &quot;entertained&quot; by the man and was killed after he lost interest.<br />   Also the idea that the singing of the normal Aiel doesn't seem to fit either. I could see it if they were channelers or had some sort of talent, but I have not heard anything from the books about there being a talent among humans for Singing (as in helping plants). I think they were singing to help S grow the plants and give him spirit and a beat of glory to do his growing. The blight I think of when refering to whta S did was your normal plant problems like disease and other things like that. The plants along the Blight (notice capitals) are corrupted from the evil of the DO.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /> True Power is knowing that you can, but you don't. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-red.gif" border="0" /> -Deathbone1 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-green.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Current rank in Wse PTS: 164 out of top 1000 (7/8/03)<br />We are men of action. Lies do not become us.<br />Life finds a way.<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-09 13:01:19
subject: <b>main problem with Rand's dream</b>
body:
Rand's dream was likely influenced by Ishy and had no real baring on life whatsoever.  There's also a voice that comes to Rand as he starts to head towards the White Tower, &quot;<i>It is you destiny.</i>&quot;  Plus the fact that when he finally gets there he meets a Myrddraal.  Both of these seem to indicate, IMO, that Ishy influenced this dream.<br /><br />For the rest I totally agree with damookster.<br /><br />Jim<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sir Jim<br />Lord of Minutia&#8482;<br />King of WoT MB Posts&#8482;<br /><br />Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-09 14:59:03
subject: <b>Dammit Jim (and Da Mookster)</b>
body:
I am a doctor not... *Ahem* <br /><br />Well it seems that Jim and Da Mookster said all I wanted to say except that I still enjoyed reading the theory.  It has been the best theory I have seen here in a while.  (I don't know if that says too much, though <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> ).<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">RabidWombat<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> Let the Lord of Rambling Thoughts rule <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> Proud owner of a 2 star rating! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /> Someone stole all my cookies <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-09 17:11:53
subject: <b>Magic song......hmmmmm</b>
body:
I really don't think a magic, healing song is in keeping with the ( though fantasical ), WoT series. Also I don't think that the maddened Channeler kept the last of the Da'shin Aiel alive because the song was doing something. I think it was more like it touched a part of him and stirred dim memories of his life before maddness. But eventually he lost all control and killed the last guy.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><u><b>Owner</b></u> of Mat Girl - I have it in <i>writing</i> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><i>'Wight now I imagwin your feewing a bit wike Awice, tumbewing down the wabbit hoewl'</i>-<b><u>Morpheus</u></b><br /><br /><b><u>I am <i>NOT</i> a Zoo!</u></b></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-09 18:43:44
subject: <b>Interesting theory</b>
body:
it has got me thinking.  Comments?  none at the moment.  Actually hang on a moment.  Maybe ishy influenced that dream and maybe he didn't.  If Ishy didn't, then aren't all dreams a Ta veren has hold some meaning?  <br /><br />Columbo is on the case!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-09 19:29:10
subject: <b>The song doesn;t stop the taint</b>
body:
The linked armed aiel were singing &amp; tryig to stop the male channeller to hopefully make him see the error of what was happening.<br />They were the pacifists going up against a violent man.<br /><br />Their main purpose was to distract the mad old coot so the inhabitants of the city could get away.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /> Greyslayer <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-green.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-08-20 17:06:27
subject: <b>A few thoughts about the song.....</b>
body:
I bet that the song will actually be....you guessed it...&quot;Wash the Spears&quot; Yep you know thats what its gonna turn out to be <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" />Viking Dave<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-09 12:02:26
subject: <b>I agree with this theory..</b>
body:
I've always thought the blight will be pushed back by the Aiel joined with the tinkers at the LB with or without the Nym (RJ would find a way) but I hadn't known the Nym are living ter'angreal.  <br /><br />We know some ter-angreal can be used by people unable to touch the source, (first mentioned in TGH, The Testing) so its possible Nym are such ter'angreal.  With Elayne chucking out ter'angreal left, right and centre maybe she'll make one.  Perhaps they'll make do with the Oigier's help, or even sing it on their own, which we know is possible because they did it with the mad male AS - there was no mention of Oigier (am I spelling that right?) or Nym there, just Aiel (albeit quite a lot).<br /><br />The information we get on the Aiel singing to the mad AS is a demonstration by RJ of a: how brave the Aiel are and b: how mad all the male AS had become.  Just because their singing didn't help the madman, doesn't mean the song wont help anyone.  We know there is no help for male AS once they've gone mad.<br /><br />I also doubt the Aiel will join the tinkers in their song until they hear it at the last battle and then it will be just a few who recognize that they have the ability to join the song, thus enlarging the group of singers - but that's another theory.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Friend to Kory <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/frown.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-09 13:59:04
subject: <b>A little clarification...</b>
body:
I never meant to say that the Song would affect the Taint itself or remove it, but that the mad male AS may have recognized something in it that touched him, if only for a moment.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br /><i>I will try. Before surrendering to dreams or death, I will try.<font color="black"></font></i></font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-09 19:59:20
subject: <b>Song to Heal</b>
body:
Just finished reading &quot;The Song Will Be Sung&quot;.  Wondered if it occurred to anyone else that The Song might be useful in healing the unhealing wounds in Rand's side?


created: 2003-03-29 12:32:27
subject: <b>theres a serious problem with the theory</b>
body:
if you look closely at the time when rand enters ruidhin(dont remember how to write excactly)<br />it is shown that the tuatha'an are actually aiel who forsook the path to bring the items of aes sedai to some where safe thus getting the name &quot;lost ones&quot; they claimed to leave seeking for the songs that they used to sing that made everybody happy<br />the songs with the ogier and nim that they sung to grow the plants... it actually the great songs that they used to sing at the age of legends thus if they find those songs again everything will be happy again because they will have their &quot;great&quot; songs its not supposed to actually bring the new age just to remind them of it


created: 2003-05-02 00:47:55
subject: <b>the song and flowers and the Nym and Perrin</b>
body:
I think there are hints in the books about the song and the vision someone had of Perrin standing amongst some flowers. Perrin is not a killer and the Axe is soemthing he hates, Faile will probably die and he will be transformed, the blight transformed or whatever by the song and he will change into a gardener?


created: 2004-09-03 06:18:25
subject: <b>song is post tarmon gaidon</b>
body:
I postulate that the song will be used to heal the blight (ergo restored Malkier) after Tarmon Gaidon, but not during or before the battle.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Show me the Frangipani.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-09 23:10:47
subject: <b>Something to Ponder</b>
body:
OK, correct me if I'm wrong but......Female channelers get all goosebumpy when someone channels Saidin in their viscinity.  Halima, who could understandably be going through a gender identity crisis, is a gal, she was a guy and thus channels Saidin.  Our wonderful Amyrlin, while obviously in pain from the headaches, should be able to recognize the feeling one gets when around someone seizing Saidin and since Moridin is now the only Forsaken currently able to channel the True Power we have to believe that Halima is resorting to Saidin.  Something to ponder when thinking about Egwene being Compulsed.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> Mathias <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> (By the way this is my first thing to ever post here.)


created: 2002-05-10 00:04:40
subject: <b>Vice Versa</b>
body:
Male channelers can tell when a female embraces Saidar, but not the other way, so that means nothing.  I dont believe that Egwene is under compulsion as some of her decisions haven't pleased Halima at all, which if Halima was directing her she would know about before hand.  Also compulsion seems to change a person if used on a major scale (refer Morgase) and with all the skilled and knowledgable Aes Sedai with Egwene they would notice any personality changes. Also, I dont remember that Halima in her other life was much into the subtler forms of using Saidin, I pictured her/him as more a blast them of the face of the planet sort.


created: 2002-05-10 00:48:09
subject: <b>Thats right</b>
body:
Luv Child is absolutely right,Men can feel women but women can't feel men.I don't think that Aran'gar is using compulsion on Egwene yet but I do think that she will try it later on.I definitaley think she is causing Egwene's headaches and then soothing them so she can get close to Egwene.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" />Tai shar<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" />Tai shar<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Is it my imagination <br />Or have I finally found something worth living for <br />I was looking for some action <br />But all I found were cigarettes and alcohol<br />-Oasis</font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-10 02:28:09
subject: <b>Yes compulsion</b>
body:
At one stage in the book, Egwene thinks of some things that are distinctly &quot;un-Egwene&quot;. (don't remember exactly where) She then stops &amp; rethinks it &amp; wonders why she was considering that line of thought. Soon after Halima comes in to do massage etc.<br /><br />Halima is a nasty Beetch!!!. Even is she is he.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /> Greyslayer <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-red.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-05-10 04:06:19
subject: <b>Nasty Egwene</b>
body:
There's a thought.  If Halima is using Compulsion to make Egwene do things un-Egwene, such as &quot;bring Sheriam to heel,&quot; maybe EGWENE was the one who tortured Sheriam in her tent that night?  I mean that's stretching it a little, but it would be an interesting twist.  Anyway, I like this theory; maybe Halima is doing something minor with the Compulsion, or just using it minimally for whatever reason, but it gives a reason for the headaches, when it could have been anything at all; diarrhea or menstrual cramps or gout or whatever.


created: 2002-05-10 09:41:28
subject: <b>Hmmm...</b>
body:
I don't thik Egwene is the one doing the torturing as she already knows what is going on in salider behind the secnes as she is th one deciding it. Also Sherim shows no recognition of Egwene when think about her numerous beatings by the evil people.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Pandora's Box - The Ultraviolet Catastrophe</font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-10 09:56:57
subject: <b>Egwene</b>
body:
Whoever is torturing Sheriam is not Egwene.  The torturer tells Sheriam something like &quot;You were supposed to keep me informed.  The girl is up to something.&quot;  I think the torturer is none other than Halima.  I know, that is almost too simple of a solution.  <br />I am re-reading PoD, and judging by Delana's and Halima's reactions to the way Egwene deals with 1)the Andoran army and 2)the Hall, they are not at all happy.  Delana goes as far as to throw up when Egwene calls the Hall to heel.  If Eg were doing what Halima wanted would Delana have this reaction?  I also agree that Bealthamel was probably not skilled with Compulsion (at least to the degree that Eg won't know what is going on).


created: 2002-05-10 10:03:20
subject: <b>OTOH</b>
body:
Egwene should know how to disguise herself by now, shouldn't she?  Didn't Elayne and Nynaeve learn that from Moghedian when they had her captured?  And Egwene not only exchanges notes with them, but she also seems to be the best at figuring out things like that.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="white">|</font>&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;<img src="images/personalsmilies/747.gif" /><br />Only so evil.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-10 11:14:29
subject: <b>But...</b>
body:
Halima seems really pissed when Eg calls the Hall to meet and declares war on Elaida. And Delana ia also upset, as was pointed out. Now, if Halima was using compulsion on Egwene, do you think she(he) would let Egwene do anything without her permission?<br /><br />It is troubling that Halima does have Egwene under her(his) control because of her headaches. Graendal is the real master of compulsion. When Rahvin used it, he really torched Morgases' brain. Halima may not have a subtle enough touch to use very much compulsion without turning Eg into a zombie, which I don't think she is yet.<br /><br />Why is it un-Egwene like to want to bring Sheriam to heel? Sheriam wanted Egwene to be a figurehead to be led by her as much as the other factions in the camp. There was almost a perfect parallel between them and Alviarin and Elaida, even with hints about Sheiam being BA (remember the 13 mydraal question, the gray men, the beatings). But then Egwene actually took control of the situation, and is now kicking a$$. Way to go girl!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Pronounced: &quot;Rand was here&quot;<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shakefist.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-10 11:44:21
subject: <b>I like this</b>
body:
I like this theory. It does sorta make sense, but there are, as pointed out, a few discrepencies. The headaches seem to be a dead give away that something is going on, but I don't know because it could be the stress of being the Amrylin. People get headaches for less stuff than what she is undergoing. I think its just a little debateable one way or another. We'll find out though at some point now won't we?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /> True Power is knowing that you can, but you don't. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-red.gif" border="0" /> -Deathbone1 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-green.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Current rank in Wse PTS: 164 out of top 1000 (7/8/03)<br />We are men of action. Lies do not become us.<br />Life finds a way.<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-10 12:07:50
subject: <b>Headaches...</b>
body:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't the headaches start after the fight with Lanfear at the docks?  Didn't Egwene actually lie to the wise ones and say that she was feeling better when really she had horrible headaches?<br /><br />I don't have the books with me, so I can't say for sure...<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">::  I am the speaker at the dawn of the age<br />::  and I stand at the door to the west.<br /><br />~X~<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-10 12:29:22
subject: <b>Compulsion ability</b>
body:
I'm of the opinion that if Halima had the ability to compel Egwene (or anyone else in the camp) &amp; get away with it, we'd be seeing more obvious results of it by now.<br /><br />Compulsion seems to be one of the more complicated weaves that exist, and even Moghedien (who seems fairly competent with it) admits to herself that her Talent for Compulsion is not that great.<br /><br />I think it's a good bet that Balthamel (aka Aran'gar, aka Halima) simply is not skilled enough at Compulsion in order to be able to compel a powerful &amp; strong-willed channeler like Egwene on a long-term basis.  Rahvin (who seemed to be pretty good at it) wasn't able to keep the reigns on Morgase, and there's a good chance Egwene would be as resistant.<br /><br />But it is definitely possible that Aran'gar is using a more subtle weave of Compulsion, designed to slowly erode a persons will &amp; make them more receptive to suggestion.  Such a process would be much more difficult to detect, and perhaps more permanent.  Something more akin to Verin's technique.<br /><br />Another idea I've been toying with is that Halima has her eye on the intelligence netork available to the Aes Sedai.  I believe it says in the guide that during the War of Power, Balthamel was in charge of a large intelligence network, rivaling that of Moghediens.  So Halima's motives for working her way into Egwene's confidence may have a lot to do with this.  And a full-bore compulsion assault probably isn't the best way to gain access to that kind of system.


created: 2002-05-10 13:25:43
subject: <b>Halima's Charge</b>
body:
Couldn't Halima's &quot;charge&quot; be the Aes Sedai Delana? In terms of the dark friend heirarchy, Delana is her charge. She may not be referring to Egwene at all.<br /><br />Of course, if she is referring to Egwene, there is still no need for Halima to be using compulsion to consider Egwene in her complete control. Maybe she can't make Egwene do what she wants all the time, but she certainly has Egwene's trust and can spend time alone with Egwene whenever she wants without anyone knowing her true loyalties. The opportunities to control Egwene whenever she has to, or even kidnap/threaten her, certainly exist.<br /><br />Good catch on the headaches/Logain's departure.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">kinghomer <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />&#8220;Marge, don&#8217;t discourage the boy. Weaseling out of things is important to learn. It&#8217;s what separates us from the animals &#8230; except the weasel.&#8221;</font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-10 14:17:44
subject: <b>Sorry I'm late to the party...</b>
body:
Mathias, welcome to WOT.  Women can't feel men channeling?  Nyneave could feel Aran'gar channeling.  Also Aran'gar must have at least a little ability compulsing people.  Whether or not he's using compulsion on Egwene??????<br /><br />Columbo is on the case!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-10 14:22:21
subject: <b>Women</b>
body:
Women can not sense men channeling.  What you are refering to is in Nynaeve's testing for Accepted.  One of the Forsaken does wonder why the Aes Sedai have not made a ter'angreal that would detect a man channeling.


created: 2002-05-10 16:46:50
subject: <b>Thank you...</b>
body:
Thank you for pointing out what I was refering to.  The test represents the past, present and future. What happens inside the terangreal is as real as real can get.  If Nyneave can sense Arangar channeling in the Terangreal she can sense Arangar channeling.  I never did buy into the theory that men can feel women channel but women cannot feel men channel.  Where's your balance in that?<br /><br />Columbo is on the case!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-10 16:57:43
subject: <b>Also to X-man?</b>
body:
When did Egwene aquire enough knowledge on compulsion and its side effects to be able to recognize someone using compulsion on her?  Are headaches not one of the side effects?  Okay so Arangar isn't as skilled as Greandal with the use of compulsion.  Thats an easy one! she's the best.  Please don't try to tell me that Aran'gar cannot use compulsion on others.  Verin can do it!  Don't forget Aran'gar is one of the Forsaken not a novice in the White Tower.<br /><br />Tiger Woods is the best golfer in the world.  Hang on I think Fred Couples is also a great golfer!  Might not be able to hit it as long as Tiger,  but he still gets it out there a long way.<br /><br />Columbo is on the case!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-10 17:06:06
subject: <b>Unless I'm Mistaken...</b>
body:
Egwene has no significant spy network that Halima could be interested in. She has been relying on Siuan and Leanne, plus whatever Sheriam, Romanda, or Lelaine decides to give her.<br /><br />Regarding women channeling... hasn't his already been discussed? Cadsuane does have terangreal that she uses at the end of Winters Heart which detects men and women channeling, but does not differentiate between the two. That is the closest women are to detecting men channeling, although in my opinion, Nyn's accepted test will prove true, and Aes Sedai will learn how to detect a man channeling.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Pronounced: &quot;Rand was here&quot;<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shakefist.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-10 17:27:43
subject: <b>Halima is a punk.</b>
body:
I'm going to branch off on a different subject.  Now that the taint has been lifted from saidin, and the Ashaman are free from the taint, will Rand sent some of his trusted Ashaman to Egwene?  If the Aes Sedai accept that the taint has been lifted, and Ashaman are let in the rebal Aes Sedai's troop, then Halima will have to walk around on tippy toes.  I think that if this happens that it would be VERY interesting to read.


created: 2002-05-10 18:06:48
subject: <b>Sigh, I thought this was to obvious to post, but</b>
body:
Sigh, I thought this was to obvious to post, but it is amazing the number of responses of people who don't believe it.  <br /><br />*HELLO*  *ANYBODY HOME*<br /><br />Of course Egwene is Halima's charge; nobody else makes sense.  Egwene is the center of the action for the rebels. <br /><br />Same with the headaches.  They started after Logain left and are miracurously 'cured' by Halima.  How convenient.  There is also the fact that Nynaeve mentioned that if Halima knew her stuff the headaches wouldn't be coming back.  Afterwards Slayer deliberatly shows himself (probably to distract them from a dangerous line of conversation).  This, in my mind shows that Slayer is somehow connected to the rebels (or at least to Halima).<br /><br />I don't think there is enough evidence to say that Halima is using compulsion, but she is using some kind of mind control, most likely with the power.  This is demonstrated by Egwene's quick change of opinion about the oath rod.  <br /><br />As far as Egwene's blackmailing of Sheriam and company and other 'unEgwene' like actions.  I am not quite sure that it is entirely unlike Egwene.  On the other hand, I hope it is because of complusion.  What Egwene did there was unpardonable (If our President or any other politician did anything of the sort they should be removed from office and worse-the same with Egwene.)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">RabidWombat<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> Let the Lord of Rambling Thoughts rule <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> Proud owner of a 2 star rating! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /> Someone stole all my cookies <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-10 18:31:55
subject: <b>UnEgwenelike action?</b>
body:
I'm surprised nobody has mentioned this, but how is Egwene's taking over the Hall unEgwenelike.  What do you think she has been planning since she became Amyrlin.  Correct me if I'm wrong, but was there any other way she could have gained control of the Hall.  NO!  She manipulated events for months.  Talmanes even comments on it when he meets her.  Did you plan on everything that happened  (I know, not an exact quote, but I don't have my books with me.)  and she said, how could I plan it, while thinking that this is what she had hoped would come to pass.  Ever since Mat showed up, she has been planning a coup, so to say it is out of character, or that it is Halima's doing is silly.  <br /><br />I doubt that compulsion is being used, because then Halima would just be able to ask Egwene, &quot;Hey, what are you planning?&quot; and Egwene would tell her everything willingly.  Since Halima doesn't know what's going on, it probably isn't Compulsion.  I DO believe she is using the headaches to stay within a close proximity of Egwene, so she can find out what is going on.  If she tries to do more, she risks having questions asked, and getting caught. <br /><br />Any comments, questions, critisisms, complaints.  Please feel free to tell me.  And in the words of the Human Torch, FLAME ON!


created: 2002-05-10 21:38:51
subject: <b>How?</b>
body:
It's the way Egwene went about it that was un Egwene like!  We all know of her ambitions.  <br /><br />Columbo is on the case!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-11 01:13:34
subject: <b>Whoever said it above was right.</b>
body:
The headaches started after she was thrown into a wagon by Lanfear and her head bounced off of the side of it.<br /><br />Put it this way: If she had headaches BEFORE Halima came to offer rubdowns (weird. Is that kinky or not? A man in a woman's body who... never mind. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />) then Halima could not have possibly started it. Besides, as pointed out above, they started almost 2 full books before.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-12 09:35:21
subject: <b>Good point, Green Gaidin</b>
body:
I don't think Hamila is actually using Compulsion on Egwene, what she/he is doing is more subtle than that.<br /><br />I also don't think Hamila is actually causing the headaches, but she could be. The reason I doubt the headaches are caused by Hamila is that Egwene really hasn't been sleeping well. The headaches GG mentioned were caused by Lanfear, and made worse when Egwene used her Dreamwalking powers. Lately, Egwene hasn't gotten any real sleep, she spends her nights monitoring her own dreams, which isn't very restful, when she bothers to sleep at all.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> &quot;Those the gods wish to destroy, they first make mad&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> &quot;I would not mind you in my head, if you were not so clearly mad. -Lews Therin Telamon&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-13 09:58:47
subject: <b>channeling</b>
body:
women can NOT tell if a man is channeling.  there is no proof in any book where a woman senses a man channeling saidin in real time.  i thought that was obvious to everyone.


created: 2002-05-13 13:56:34
subject: <b>Heh Prince...</b>
body:
Real time?  What is real time?  If your head gets cut of inside the ter angreal you die.  How much more real can it get than that?  The Ter angreal used to raise Novices to Accepted is not a simulator!  It's real!  If you get a thorn in your hand you come out with a thorn in your hand.  Yes we have seen women sense men channelling.  Nyneave felt Aringor inside the Ter angreal.  She will prove it for you in your REAL world, soon I should think.<br /><br />Columbo is on the case!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-14 15:49:10
subject: <b>Regarding Halima's disapproval</b>
body:
If Halima disapproved of the declaration of war, why did Delana stand?  Especially since it was the very last thing she wanted to do?  She looked out at the crowd outside, and then stood up.  Could she have been checking for a signal from Halima?  She was mentioned as toyng with a necklace when she entered the Hall's tent. This might have been the saidin equivalent of wearing a wire, so Halima would know what was happening in the tent.  Halima's news when she first came to Salidar was certainly provocative enough, and it appears that the Shadow wants to encourage turmoil between Aes Sedai, like spreading word of the Black Ajah falsely as Delana is saying about Elaida, or Alviarin increasing the Tower Guard.  Also, Siuan was so suspicious of the newest Aes Sedai, most of whom voted for the declaration of war.  It may be that the Shadow encouraged the breaking of the Tower and allowed Siuan to pump up the rebels to further the division.  It isn't very likely Rand could have gotten away with the Black Tower without the split, and regardless of who Taim is or isn't, he has to be a Darkfriend, so its obvious the Shadow wants some things to happen as they have.  They seem to be working to spread mistrust between sisters, whether a McCarthy-like paranoia about the Black Ajah, internecine war between Tower factions (and Elaida's faction is the only one currently taking any sort of positive action against the Shadow), and fueling distrust between Rand and the Aes Sedai on both ends (the last we heard from Egwene, she believed he was enslaving sisters, when he was only receiving voluntary oaths of fealty, [unlike Egwene, who was blackmailing Oaths out of sisters], and she was angry enough to do something about it [&quot;Rand al'Thor will stand before the Amyrlin Seat and know her anger...&quot;]).  A war between Aes Sedai would certainly serve the Shadow's purpose, and could probably be characterised as one of the &quot;petty battles&quot; Rand complained that men were fighting instead of preparing for the last battle.  After all, the sisters were talking about making peace, and negotiating before they were driven to war by Egwene.  Even she does not want a war-she has talked about how she fears the consequences to Aes Sedai unity-but rather she declared it to gain a measure of power for herself, rather like Adolf Hitler, of in those Attack of the Clones previews, where the Republic Senate votes to give Palpatine &quot;emergency powers.&quot;  Remember Pedron Nial's speech about killing lions in the prologue to Dragon Reborn? <br />And what's with the 180 Egwene has done on the topic of the Three Oaths?  From one speech Siuan made? When she has noticed the fact that other channlers are trusted far more among their own people withou them?  Thses are opinions she has held since The Shadow Rising, and she tosses them away, and breaks her promise to include the Kin among the sisters over the Oaths some will be unable to swear, all one the strength of one speech by Siuan?  Does this not seem like she is a little susceptible to suggestions?  Egwene is following the path to power of historical and fictional tyrants, changing her mind at the drop of a hat, and jumping to conclusions about one of her oldest friends, and one of the Forsaken claims to have her under her thumb.  I think compulsion definitely has to be considered.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-16 13:54:12
subject: <b>Which way does it work, anyway?</b>
body:
A lot has been made of whether men can detect women channeling or if it's the other way around.  I don't remember the exact page, but in The Shadow Rising, close to the beginning, Egwene and Elayne come to help Rand learn how to channel.  He gets all goosepimply when they channel but they are not able to tell when he does.<br />I'm almost positive about this, but somebody check me.<br />


created: 2002-05-20 13:22:49
subject: <b>Halima Must Die!!!</b>
body:
I don't know about Compulsion, but Halima is definitely causing Egwene's headaches and trying to use her somehow.  I hope she's discovered in Crossroads....<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Shaiel <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /><br />Bonded to Matthew Gaidin<br /><br />&quot;And in our honesty together we will rise<br />out of our nightminds and into the light<br />at the end of the fight&quot;.  <br />- missy higgins<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-22 13:19:07
subject: <b>It has come...</b>
body:
to my attention that Lanfear didn't have to see the weaving of Saidin but the what and the where to unravel Rand's weaving.  How do you learn the What and the Where if you have no awareness at all of the use of Saidin?<br /><br />The Shadow Rising, paperback, page 194.  Check it out!<br /><br />Columbo is on the case!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-04 11:30:44
subject: <b>women detecting saidin</b>
body:
I think that Halima is using compulsion on Egwene to some degree.  Halima would not make it obvious to the other sisters that Egwene was being compulsed, so she only uses small amounts to give her headaches.  She is working her way up to something big by gaining Egwenes trust though.  I believe that for a woman to detect saidin she does need a terrangreal of some sort.  I believe that in one of the future books Elayne will discover how to make one of these terrangreal, as she is into discovering how to make that type of thing (terrangreal).  Well I guess Im done ranting now, peace out.


created: 2002-07-15 04:16:52
subject: <b>Causing the headaches?</b>
body:
Halima is not causing the headaches.Xoe stated first and earlier that Egwenes headaches began after the fight with Lanfear.That much is correct. Early in LoC  Egwene denied having bad headaches to the Wise Ones.<br />Halima merely seized upon an opportunity to ingratiate herself into Egwenes confidence.<br />


created: 2002-08-04 22:31:09
subject: <b>Is Egwene the charge?</b>
body:
I don't think so. I think it is Sheriam.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">And every move I make he's got a hand up just in time<br />He's throwing several punches, and he's blocking most of mine<br />Defeated now I sulk and squirm above the frozen heights<br />Waiting, calculating till he ventures onto the ice.<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-07 21:29:49
subject: <b>About female channelers and sensing saidin...</b>
body:
I seem to recall reading about a weave that allowed female channelers to see the weaves of saidin or something to that effect. Then again, my memory might just be playing tricks on me...<br /><br />


created: 2002-08-21 00:21:24
subject: <b>a couple of things...</b>
body:
a couple of things to think about:<br /><br />1)Would Egwene see Halima channeling?<br /><br />This is complicated so please bear with me. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br />a)First of all can female channelers feel saidin?<br /><br />When Egwene first met Moraine she couldn't tell when she was channeling.  However as time went on Egwene started to be able to see the weaves and even be able to tell who could channel and who couldn't. the ability to feel when someone is channeling is learned. The more one is exposed to the proximity of power, the more likely one is to be able to recognize it, as well possibly by the amount of power one posesses.<br /><br />b)assuming Egwene could see saidin, would she know if Halima was channeling?<br /><br />Remember when Elayne and Nynaeve were coming to Salidar, along with a certain Forsaken? The girls couldn't tell that Marigan was really The Spider because M was using an inverted weave that stopped that. Is there any reason Halima can't do the same, both hiding the fact that she camn channel and whatever she has done to Egwene?<br /><br />2)IS Halima using compulsion?<br /><br />of this I'm not really sure. But I am sure that Halima IS using some kind of weave on Egwene. Otherwise why would she be spilling her guts on top secret matters to a MAID? In case you haven't noticed servents are usually not thought of as trustworthy(except in some VERY special ocassions). Also contrary to some opinions Egwene DOES have a brain, and whenever its not occupied with the muscles of Gawyn or the woolheadedness of Rand, she's pretty good at what she does.  The simple fact that she hasn't connected Halima as the cause of the headaches proves that Halima has definately done SOME kind of mojo on her. As well there is more than one kind of compulsion and more than one way do do it. It may depend on the command.<br /><br />3) any wrapping up!<br /><br />Any  headaches in the desert are completely different in scope,intensity, and everything else. the only thing connecting the two is that they're both headaches. Plus, that's all over, why would they show up again?<br /><br />If you have any questions about my cruel and surjical <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> explanation of life's mysteries just hand em over!!!<br /><br />and Finally: THANK YOU RABID WOMBAT FOR SAYING &quot;DUH!!!!&quot; FOR US ALL <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-09-30 03:20:42
subject: <b>Egwene is a bully</b>
body:
Women can't sense saidin. This is repeated throughout the series. It is why Balthamel was sent to salidar. <br />Why do you assume Egwene is forcing people because of compulsion? She was always like this. Look at her treatment of Nyneave in TFoH. For someone treated like an animal by the seanchan she seems surprisingly willing to treat others the same. Personally I can't wait for her to meet her comeuppance (hopefully from Mat).<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">We rode on the winds of the rising storm,<br />We ran to the sounds of the thunder,<br />We danced among the lightning bolts,<br />and tore the world asunder.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-28 15:06:32
subject: <b>Egwene and Aran'gar, Oaths</b>
body:
I am uncertain if anyone cares or will notice this. <br />On monday the 27th of january I was at the book signing in Toronto and asked The Jordan if Egwene's 180 on the oaths was genuine or the result of Aran'gar's manipuliation.<br />His response was that she had genuinely changed her mind and come to the realisation that the oaths are intrinsic in what makes them Aes Sedai<br />The reason I wasted a direct question to The jordan over this trivial matter is because I knew he wouldn't RAFO me or say, all the answers are there, as he surely would have if I asked him about Mesaana


created: 2003-02-23 12:29:47
subject: <b>Compulsion..........No</b>
body:
I hardly think that Halima would be able to use compulsion on Egwene.  I'm not talking about ability to use compulsion, I'm talking about practicality.  Recall what happened to Padan Fain when he was compelled by the DO in EotW: He became a madman running around the countryside.  Now obviously there could be something like the mini compulsion that Verin used on the Aes Sedai that have sworn allegiance to Rand, but then why would Egwene have refused to declare Elaida Black Ajah?  Obviously Egwene can still hold to her own goals and any sort of Compulsion that Halima may or may not be using on Egwene is not working.<br /><br />I think that Halima IS causing the headaches, but just to keep herself close to Egwene so that hs/she will be able to take advantage of any opportunities that arise as well as keeping her close to the members of the Hall that she can manipulate through Delana<br /><br />Woohoo!  My first post!!!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">If a sword had memory, it might be grateful to the forge fire, but never fond of it.<br />     -Rand Al'Thor<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-05-13 20:43:06
subject: <b>Not Aran'gar</b>
body:
To clarify, Nynaeve did not face off with Aran'gar/Balthamel/Halima in the ter'angreal during her acccepted test, it was the other of the ressurected pair, Osan'gar/Aginor/Dashiva.<br />As to whether or not she could sense him channeling, I am not sure.  As of CoT, we see that Halima is desperately trying to keep the Asha'man and Aes Sedai apart, wrapping certain sisters and their warders in flows of air with saidin and letting them die.  The friction might end the supposed alliance between the little tower and the black tower fast.<br />For Egwene's headaches earlier, she first had them after the battle with Lanfear, and her injury hurt her head after visiting Tel'aran'rhiod and the space between the pattern where she watches dreams.  Elayne and Nynaeve also refer to the headaches they recieved consistently when using Moghedien's trick to try and sense the channeling of Saidin.<br /><br />I think that Halima is giving her the headaches, though.  It is too convenient, too much of a coincidence.


created: 2003-05-24 01:51:08
subject: <b>There is no weave that can detect a man channeling.</b>
body:
&quot;I seem to recall reading about a weave that allowed female channelers to see the weaves of saidin or something to that effect. Then again, my memory might just be playing tricks on me...&quot;<br /><br />To Teriferen (is that how you spell it?):<br /><br />No, as far as I know, there isn't one that females can use to detect a man channeling. There is a supposed way, but no true way.<br /><br />A Crown of Swords: Chapter 25, Mindtrap, page 457<br /><br />&quot;Great Lord, I taught them only small things, and I fought them as I could. I taught them a supposed way to detect a man channeling.&quot; She manage to laugh. &quot;Practicing gives them such headaches they cannot channel for hours.&quot;<br /><br />Also, as with Halima, if she is using compulsion, it's probably only a little bit. I'd say more of a form of 'healing'. Egwene had those headaches before ACoS (^^;; didn't really occur to me, that one) so Halima probably somehow knew about this, heard somewhere, and just jumped in. Egwene would take longer to find this out, yeah?


created: 2003-06-08 20:15:33
subject: <b>Halima is causing the headaches.</b>
body:
I have no actual proof, only inference.  In CoT, pgs, 436-439, {AChat with Siuan} as soon as Halima left the tent, Egwene`s headache came and lasted to late afternoon, then abruptly ended.<br /><br />This was the same night Egwene did not have Halima in her tent, and Dreamed about the Seanchan woman with the sword helping her up the mountain, and also the Seanchan attacking the WT.<br /><br />IT WAS NO COINCIDENCE that this was the same night Anaiya AS was killed!<br /><br />However, if Halima is Compelling Egwene, it is a poor effort.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-28 11:54:36
subject: <b>to columbo.</b>
body:
men sense women while they are embracing saidar while women<br />sense saidin after the man has let go of it.<br />they feel the residues of the weaving.<br />this is how the red ajah hunts men who can channel (mentioned somewhere in crossroads of twilight).<br />robert jordan himself said this in the weekly section on the tor website.<br />


created: 2004-09-03 05:13:11
subject: <b>not compulsion</b>
body:
I do agree that Halima is obviously causing the headaches, but I don't think it is compulsion. Halima is constantly trying, and also through Delanna trying, to get more information about what Egwene is going to do. For example, in CoT, Halima tries to get Egwene to let her stay and talk to her, but Egwene insists she must send Halima away and work. Halima is furious, but leaves, with only being able to give Egwene a bad headache. I think Halima has been ordered not to use compulsion, but to do more akin to spying and causing of chaos. If Halima was using compulsion on Egwene, she would act differently. When Morgase was fighting the compulsion of Rhavin, she was not experiencing headaches, but more along the lines of forgetfulness, sleepiness and disorientation. I think that Egwene has done a pretty good job of surprising everyone all along, including Halima and Delanna, and that Halima killed Annaiya to find out information. It is also possible she killed Kairen to get information, although just as likely to end the cuendillar threat. (sorrry if I can't spell that) It is of interest to note that when Verin was practicing compulsion on the captive aes sedai, she notes that the weave may eventually kill them, although it seems ok when first employed. This type of compulsion would not be used on a valuable person that was more good to Halima alive. <br /><br />Lastly, I am pretty certain that Halima used to be Bethalamel, not Aginor. I think Aginor was Corlin Dashiva.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Show me the Frangipani.</font><p></p>


created: 2007-06-09 01:14:02
subject: <b>Well...</b>
body:
Obviously Halima is doing something to Egwene. I doubt that it is compulsion but more of a random weave to give headaches. The headaches allow Halima to be in Egwenes tent A LOT. sometimes even when Egwene is speaking with other people about important matters. as someone else said, Balthe..whatever ( books not on hand at the moment) was not grand with compulsion. And heres another possibility. To stop women from sensing his/her channeling Halima could invert her flows possibly, or a variation to mask his/her embracing of the source? But the time we learn of that Sheriam is beaten is shortly after Halima disappeared from the camp correct? Thus the member of the chosen had some kind of important business to attend to, leaving her servant, the darkfriend Sheriam, to spy on Egwene.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> Shara is actually inhabited by bannanas <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /> The Band of the Red Hand is made of Ninjas like Mat<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /><br />Narg+Bela= Nela!<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/w00t.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /> ;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bela.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2008-04-28 01:31:25
subject: <b>old but should be posted</b>
body:
the headaches went away when she was brought to the white tower so Halima was obviously doing it, and I remember something about compulsion and being detected by delving, and if Halima was giving her headaches and she was delved and they discovered compulsion...that would be bad...I think its safe to assume that Halima was 1) not skilled enough, and 2) didnt want to be caught and just gave her headaches so she didnt get a lot of work done and disrupted her All her plans, because they were really bad and kept her from thinking and pissed her off. Also it gave Halima a great reason to be near her, Halima could relieve the headaches with out having to ask a sister for healing and spreading to all the sisters that she was weak and needed to be healed from headaches from all the stress she was under.


created: 2002-05-10 23:20:30
subject: <b>I like it</b>
body:
This is like the seanchen complaining about the prophies of the dragon being corrupted because they don't mention the DR bowing to the cystal throne.  Also the the prophies of the Light and the Dark all tell things that should happen, not what has to happen, before after and during the last battle.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">From one that was here to not being here and now back again<br /><br />Yours in insanity<br />Mach</font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-10 23:23:20
subject: <b>I don't think so</b>
body:
There is no reason why the car'a'carn would have existed for the Aiel in the past considering that they were not seperated from the rest of the population. I believe that its just a different name for the same thing. It would be cool if that were the case. Too bad RJ didn't come up with it. It would have added to the story.


created: 2002-05-11 00:11:12
subject: <b>Umm...wtf</b>
body:
Ok, how did this get posted, this isn't really a theory. All it really seems like is a question that he's asking. It isn't really proposing anything. I suppose maybe if he proposed something he did, but all he did was ask if Rand was the Car'acarn the Coramoor and the Dragon all at once.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /> True Power is knowing that you can, but you don't. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-red.gif" border="0" /> -Deathbone1 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-green.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Current rank in Wse PTS: 164 out of top 1000 (7/8/03)<br />We are men of action. Lies do not become us.<br />Life finds a way.<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-11 02:49:26
subject: <b>re: not your typical DR</b>
body:
This isn't a theory, by any definition of the word.  This states the blatantly obvious - Rand as the fulfillment of three prophecies - and then states a question...<br /><br />I guess I'll disagree as a protest vote!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /> Narg Smart.  Narg know Res Ipsa Loquitor. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-11 05:04:33
subject: <b>And what's wrong with it just being a question?</b>
body:
While I suspect that they are all just different names for the same thing, I think it's important to note that the prophecies are all different.  Jordan makes it perfectly clear that the Aiel concern themselves not a whit with wetlander prophecies, and lord knows what's in the Sea Folk prophecies.<br /><br />And I suppose it might explain why he's going to end up with three women.


created: 2002-05-11 06:13:09
subject: <b>Don&#180;t know</b>
body:
but maybe this could also be the solution to the third person in Rand&#180;s head LTT refers to. Then Rand is He who comes with the dawn, LTT is the Dragon Reborn, and the third one would be the Coramoor. All reborn in one person.<br />Just a thought


created: 2002-05-11 14:01:36
subject: <b>I doubt it</b>
body:
More likely they are all three always the same person.  Probably has something to do with the Aiel and the Sea Folk being separated from the mainland shortly after the AoL and therefore their Prophecies are just slightly alter propheces are just the same as the mainland ones with minor changes or additions, similar to the Seanchan's added verse about the DR having to bow before the Seanchan throne or Empress.<br /><br />Jim<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sir Jim<br />Lord of Minutia&#8482;<br />King of WoT MB Posts&#8482;<br /><br />Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-11 14:29:50
subject: <b>No, I don't think so.</b>
body:
I think that Rand is ALWAYS all three. I know where you're coming from, but look at it this way: In an advanced world with one large community(AoL)they would view LTT as a saviour/destroyer and call him by one name. When the world broke, though, they have split into a medievil state where there is NOT one large community. There are 6 distinct areas or groups, and each of them have their own prophecies about their saviour. The thing is, each of them is right and they all DO have a savior. Thing is, it's one man. THAT was something that each of the isolated societies didnt expect. <br /><br />If RJ said that thins turning of the Wheel was no different than any other (Marcon interview) then we should believe that Rand is ALWAYS all three.<br /><br />Interesting thought though <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-11 14:49:35
subject: <b>Well</b>
body:
The Car'a'carn and the DR at least would have to be the same person, as the DR must be marked with two Dragons, which he can only get by going to Rhuidean, and which is also a sign of the Car'a'carn.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gandalf.gif" border="0" /> A true WOTism.org original <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />LONG LIVE WOTISM PARACHAT!!!!!<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Ardente Veritate Incendite Tenebras Mundi</font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-11 15:53:13
subject: <b>I agree ....</b>
body:
with Green Gaidin on this.<br /><br />Columbo is on the case!<br />The Lord Of The Twilight is on the pipe!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-12 05:48:39
subject: <b>ummm,</b>
body:
lews was THE dragon, rand is the dragon REBORN, and the ONLY dragon reborn, so of course he is not the typical dragon reborn! there is only one, and has only been one.


created: 2002-05-12 14:39:07
subject: <b>I disagree</b>
body:
they are all one and the same. They are just different names for the same saviour. I suppose the Land of Madmen have their own names for him as well... and probably the Amayar and the Sharan too.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> <font color="a52a2a">Magnus Alexander corpore parvus erat </font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <font color="b8860b">Dissenting voice of wotmania</font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <br /><font color="6495ed">Frightfully stubborn pacifist</font> <br /><br /><i><font color="669900"> Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent</font></i></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-12 17:50:04
subject: <b>How could they be different people</b>
body:
The Aiel were completely different during the AoL, and the Sea Folk were non-existant. That only leaves the Dragon. They have to be different names for the same people.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">MoelBrain: The other MB</font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-13 01:39:52
subject: <b>re: Nothing wrong with it just being a question</b>
body:
Well, there isn't anything wrong, per se, with just posting a question...except this is the _Theory Post_ section of wotmania.  If you want to post a question and to hear what people think, the message board would seem a better place to do it.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /> Narg Smart.  Narg know Res Ipsa Loquitor. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-13 10:14:07
subject: <b>whatever!</b>
body:
post whatever you want, so long as it lends to the conversation!  however, there is a theory in there, though.  for instance, a possible way to state it is:  rand is the first person to be  all three &quot;saviours&quot; which makes him a not so typical dragon reborn which is why this turning of the wheel is different from the others.  short and sweet!  and by far one of the most original theories i've seen on this page in a long time!  i don't agree with it, though!


created: 2002-05-13 10:53:53
subject: <b>nice</b>
body:
Not sure but the Cara'carn and He who comes with the Dawn are the same person right. I think it is but prolly wrong so on that. The Cara'carn would not need the dragon on both arms because they said he was the Cara'carn before they really seen the dragons, rand walking up from Rhuidean with Matrim trailing behind at dawn thus He who Comes with the Dawn or Cara'carn. And the Seanchan did exist in the AoL, the were Artur Hawkings people. I've been thinking lately about how and dieing would leave the DO imprisoned till the next turning and all the and believe that I have figured it out. What if the third person LTT is talking about is none other then the DO himself, and by Rand weaking the seals the DO is becoming more and more able to be a conscious in Rands head. Thus the reason he needs Rand alive, so that when the seals are broken he can take over Rands body, just a thought that needs to be further explored and better explained some how. This theory makes since and kinda supported my small little thought a little.<br /><br /><br />We live and die yet we nevre stop learning.


created: 2002-05-13 11:23:04
subject: <b>The Seachan</b>
body:
No, the Seachan did not exist in the AoL. Hawkwing's descendents did not cross the ocean until more than 2000 years after the breaking. The only people in Seachan were various primitive tribes all fighting each other. Hawkwing's descendents brought unity to that land.<br /><br />And also, a plea - check your posts before posting them for spelling, punctuation, and grammatical errors. It's a shame when good ideas are completely obscured by lousy typing.<br /><br />Rob<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Rob<br /><br />&quot;I am satisfied that your answer is correct. I am not, however, satisfied that your answer is right...&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-14 19:17:07
subject: <b>The other two?</b>
body:
If the three are normally three separate people then what happened to the other two souls.  Did the pattern make a mistake and weave them somewhere else, or just kind of loose them.  I think Rand has always been all three of them.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Am I the shadow of time or is time a figment of my imagination.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Never underestimate human stupidity.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-17 03:50:34
subject: <b>I agree</b>
body:
Only Lews Therin Telamon is mentioned being reborn time and time again, and the Aiel prophecies and the Atha'an Miere have prophecies completely different from the Dragon Reborn story.<br />Both peoples also seem surprised but also donot seem to care a lot that this man also seems to be the 'Dragon Reborn or whatever' <br /><br />I'll bet that whenever Rand sets foot in Shara, suddenly people will crawl in the dust for him for fullfilling some fabled prophecy of theirs.


created: 2002-05-24 19:17:05
subject: <b>Confusing</b>
body:
Some people are compairing current events and persons in Randland with event that took place during the AoL. You forget that the Wheel hasn't turned a full turn since then and events during the AoL will not repeat themselves. That there were no Seanchan or Aiel then is not really relevant, they might have existed in some form the last time the current events took place which wasn't during the AoL. Besides, it's been mentioned that there are always slight variations for every turning of the Wheel. This might be one of them, think of it as historical evolution. It is interesting that Rand should be the soul of someone who has already lived ones during the current turning of the Wheel... Anybody got a cool theory they could whip up out of that?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;There is nothing really damned stupid that humans won't do.&quot;<br />Death</font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-16 22:24:14
subject: <b>Dopo rocks nads</b>
body:
I think that the idea that the Dragon, the Coramoor and he who comes with the dawn is very, very interesting. I love this concept. It makes a certain amount of sense, being that Lews Therin has been reborn (in someone else's head) and is, therefore, the Dragon Reborn, whereas He Who Comes with the Dawn is the guy who saves the Aiel and Rand, the kid who grew up in the two rivers with the red hair and the surprising tallness, fits perfectly into that mold. This, of course, opens up all kinds of interesting room for speculation on what the heck is going on with the Coramoor stuff, and I feel like we need to learn more about the Sea Folk before we can come up with any kind of definitive answer on this. I think that this joins two previously unexplained theories (the third person in Rand's head and why three prophesied heroes in one body) very nicely. Word em up, Dopo.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />Shorty, Pastor of Muppets<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Embiggens is a perfectly cromulent word.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />I bet Einstein turned himself all sorts of colors before he invented the light bulb.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/oh.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />PS: I'm sexy. Really. Really really sexy.<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-15 20:31:01
subject: <b>Maybe...</b>
body:
this turning is like a planetary alignment?<br />I mean that, say, every x number of time that the wheel  turns, the prophecies align.<br />Just an idea.


created: 2002-09-19 12:52:19
subject: <b>Seanchan=Seachan?</b>
body:
Rob, when you say <br /><br />&quot;a plea - check your posts before posting them for spelling&quot;<br /><br />Does that go for the Seachan... who I am sure in my book are called Seanchan..<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" />The_Hutt - Waiting to hear that he has a special version of WoT with extra n's thrown in for good measure <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" />The_Hutt<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> &quot;Those are brave men lets go kill them&quot; Tyrion Lannister</font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-18 09:49:32
subject: <b>Change is coming</b>
body:
I like the the theory of Rand beeing the unusual induvidual who represents messiah to all cultures and I mean <br />ALL cultures !<br />Do you recall tEotW ? Moiraine saying -should the DO escape his prison in here,he shall roam free in other<br />worlds as well.Parallel universe is quite good descripsion of T'A'R + portal worlds,finnland etc.<br />I think it was Ba'alzamon who said that this battle would be differend from any earlier ones.He also said he feels<br />that the change is coming so maybe this time fisher is all dragons = Rand+LTT+Third voice...<br />I'd certainly like to see the ultimate sharah game. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rand.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />  =  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />


created: 2002-11-25 06:54:26
subject: <b>Each time around</b>
body:
I have got the impression that each time an Age comes around that it is only the major details from the previous times that remain the same, in this Age the Dragon is always Reborn and seals the DO's prison. <br /><br />Each time he will be a different person - sometimes tall other short, sometimes he marries 3 women othertimes he might be gay etc. - what I'm trying to say is that this time there are 3 different names and prophecies for him (that we've seen) in the past there may have been 20 or 1.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br /><font face="centuar">John Maynard Keynes <i>Capitalism is the astounding belief that the most wickedest of men will do the most wickedest of things for the greatest good of everyone</i></font><br /><br /><font color="purple">Patternweaver's fianc&#233;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /></font><br /><i>Denice</i><br /><font color="blue">KRO</font><br /><font color="gray"><i>*bowtieless*</i></font><br /></font><p><a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1t4sdgvy-pk" target="_blank">Guinness! Evolution!</a></p><p></p>


created: 2002-12-19 12:56:01
subject: <b>Maybe that is why...</b>
body:
Perhaps that is the reason Rand and only Rand, this DR, will be able to completely defeat the DO (or at least as much as possible, i mean without death, what is life).  If he is the only one who has been all three, he has more than any of the previous ones (for any of the three roles) have had.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Life is not tried it is merely survived if  you're standing outside the fire.&quot;<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> Kwestfall06 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-06 12:49:06
subject: <b>Voices</b>
body:
This multiple incarnation into one person could be the reason behind Rand's voices in his head.  He's hearing and working the responsibilities of all three of the people in his head, and is confused.


created: 2003-02-06 23:35:00
subject: <b>Ishmael</b>
body:
Dragon Reborn is an aes sedai name from there prophecies and the sea folk and the teh aiel have theres as well...Ishmael is/was the most knowledgeable of all in regard to this...in fact he was already a philosopher thinking on this in the AoL...and I believe he talks about the creator's hero not hero's...and since both the seafolk and the aiel came to be because of the breaking(after the breaking) this theory wouldnt hold too much water...incoherently yours<br />indamous


created: 2003-04-14 12:07:03
subject: <b>Makes sense...</b>
body:
Okay first I'll make a few points to help support what I say later.  There are 2 constants in every turning, every age.  1 = Dark One, watching and learning if not participating. 2 = The Pattern, a Living entity working to keep the DO Imprisioned (my belief the Pattern IS the Creator).<br /><br />Now, here's the point.  Every Turning is different because the Dark One remembers the previous.  He changes plans, tactics, etc trying to find a way that works.  The Pattern would have to adapt to the new tactics.  It is possible this is the first time the Champion has been the fulfillment of ALL prophecies (and yes I do think Rand will kneel to the Crystal Throne, after Tuon is on it, and in respect, not fealty).  As the Dark One's plans evolve, so must the Patterns.<br /><br />This isn't to say that the other prophecies did not exist in previous turnings, but I do believe this is the first time the Champion will fulfill ALL (in previous turnings, the pattern probably had Perrin and Mat's equivalents fulfill some).<br /><br />That's it.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Fyatuk Loth<br />Pope Consort to Grand Mistress Krista Sedai<br />Minister to the Way of What<br />Warder to Egwene Dreamwalker (donate WSe please)<br /><br />Currently stalking Belals Girl.<br /><br />WTF?</font><p></p>


created: 2003-06-02 20:35:13
subject: <b>I agree, to a point</b>
body:
Your point is a good one, however, I think that it is just a chance that this Dragon happens to be all the other things too.  Call it taver'en luck, if you will, but if he was three people reincarnated, wouldn't he have three different, and totally distict, voices?


created: 2003-07-31 19:32:35
subject: <b>Different names</b>
body:
I think that just because Rand is the Dragon Reborn, The Car'a'carn and the Coramoor, obviously it doesn't mean that these different names are referring to different people at all.  In the AoL there were no Sea Folk, and the Aiel were Da'Shain.  The Aiel from the AoL did not go looking around for their Car'a'carn because- the prophecies concerning him were not written.  I would say that it is very likely that all people have their own name for the Creator's champion, but having a different name doesn't make you a different person altogether.  <br />For example, the only reason that they call Rand the Dragon Reborn is because this is the first instance of a specific soul being reborn at a specific time, the soul of the Dragon, whom people still remember (Dragonmount, Fingers of the Dragon, Kinslayer's Dagger, etc.)  The Aiel don't call him the Car'a'carn reborn, etc.  And there certainly was never any other Coramoor's or Car'a'carn's before Rand, so the idea of there being three different saviours, all reborn into Rand is bunk.  All I'm trying to say is that these different names are just different names.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">The Mofo J.A.R.<br />Head of Public Relations, Al Bum's Records<br />Lead Guitarist, Inspected by 40<br />Singer, Songwriter, multi-instrumentalist<br />Viking <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /><br />WoT addict<br />http://www.inspectedby40.com<br />First post on TP blackboard 4 times.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-11-24 16:51:52
subject: <b>If you haven't seen matrix 3 don't read this!!!!</b>
body:
Kinda like Neo is &quot;the One&quot; out of all the &quot;the Ones&quot; that ends the war.<br /><br />Hmmmm. <br /><br />Interesting. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />


created: 2004-08-31 00:24:10
subject: <b>Gotta disagree...</b>
body:
I'm 99% sure that in the prologue of The Eye of the World, Lewis is referred to as &quot;the one that comes with the dawn&quot; by the forsaken that's taunting him. Don't have the book with my right now, however I'll check on it later.


created: 2005-02-18 09:40:44
subject: <b>I have mixed feelings</b>
body:
Im usually a believer that this is a turning like anyother. But, it is interesting how the DR is all three. he's not the Car'a'carn reborn, right? but then, there is the whole thing with the dragons which suggests the car'a'carn must be the dragon reborn. and also, wasnt lews therin the 'lord of the morning' and i think 'the prince of dawn'. on the other side, however, a wise one (amys?) says their prophocies say nothing about the DR. im guessing neither do the sea folk about the coramoor. and who knows about shara...<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">-Sabin<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-10 10:32:15
subject: <b>good question but simple</b>
body:
The answer to the question is that there is no way for us to really know.  Little is known of the Age's before the Age of Legends if anything at all.  With that said, there is no way for us to know what happens when the wheel has made a full rotation.  <br /><br />Briggette tells us (and i can't remember what book) that she can remember her previous lifes, all with different names but all ending up with her marrying the same guy and doing great things. <br /><br />From there I think that it is safe to assume that though names and actions may be different, the overall story is not.  Meaning that when Rand or whoever the next Dragon Reborn is spun out once more to face the dark one will be the corramor and the carcunan as well.


created: 2006-03-21 20:52:08
subject: <b>Good one!</b>
body:
I always beleived that this turning was different. next to my own (un-posted) theory about what makes it different, this is the best i've heard<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">we really need an edit button on the blackboard. I mean, who doesn't occasionally make a comment that (unintentionally) sounds really snooty, as if it insulted a lot of people's intelegence, then realize they mis-spelled it.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-11 00:57:12
subject: <b>I dunno</b>
body:
I like the part about it being a catalyst for hearing the voices. It makes sense w/ everyting that has been said. Also, I don't think Tiam is going insane. Somehow I think he's a dark friend who might have gone to Shayol Ghul. (sp?)and gotten a special priviledge that allows him to channel w/out getting the taint to affect him. Another theory is that Tiam is Deman....<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /> True Power is knowing that you can, but you don't. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-red.gif" border="0" /> -Deathbone1 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-green.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Current rank in Wse PTS: 164 out of top 1000 (7/8/03)<br />We are men of action. Lies do not become us.<br />Life finds a way.<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-11 02:45:39
subject: <b>re: taint</b>
body:
I thought that was pretty clear from the outset...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /> Narg Smart.  Narg know Res Ipsa Loquitor. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-11 15:46:55
subject:
<b>It seems feasible...<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /></b>

body:
Really neatly done.!!<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-05-11 16:01:15
subject: <b>Aragorn</b>
body:
Not sure if I agree with you Re; Taim, but I like the way your using your noggin.  Keep coming up with interesting stuff.  <br /><br />Columbo is on the case!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-12 14:47:28
subject: <b>Haven't I seen this theory before?</b>
body:
and several times at that?<br /><br />I didn't think everybody in Randland was somebody reborn... only some special select souls. But that might just be me making hughe mistakes.<br /><br />As you can see from my sig, I do not buy your Taim-theory...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> <font color="a52a2a">Magnus Alexander corpore parvus erat </font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <font color="b8860b">Dissenting voice of wotmania</font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <br /><font color="6495ed">Frightfully stubborn pacifist</font> <br /><br /><i><font color="669900"> Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent</font></i></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-13 10:55:54
subject: <b>Makes eminent sense</b>
body:
Especially if Jordan is following the old Near Eastern concept of the threefold existence: the body, soul and spirit.  In mystical writings the spirit is the only truly eternal part of a person's being, and the soul is life-specific whereas the spirit experiences various incarnations. If Jordan is following a tradition of metempsychosis (a better term than reincarnation because it permits for a new soul for the same spirit as well as a new body, which reincarnation does not address), then it could very well be that the Taint dredges up past souls and gives them access to the spirit, confusing things incredibly.<br /><br />I like the point about Taim as well.  I just couldn't get over how he knew stuff he wasn't supposed to.  This explains that neatly and without resort to the &quot;Taimandred&quot; theories...good job! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Annoying wotmaniacs for 10 years.<br /><br />Oh, I don't have time for this. I have to go and buy a single piece of fruit with a coupon and then return it, making people wait behind me while I complain. - Prof. Farnsworth<br /> <br /><b>The Voice of Lews Therin</b><br /><br /></font><p><a href="http://www.waronterrortheboardgame.com/" target="_blank">Find out what WOT really means...</a></p><p></p>


created: 2002-05-13 10:59:45
subject: <b>WOW</b>
body:
Must be a flash back coulda of sworn I seen the same theory a week or so ago hmm? Maybe not perhaps some of us have become future readers or something to the likes. other then that I disagree


created: 2002-05-13 20:17:42
subject: <b>Taim again</b>
body:
I like this idea, but am not sure of how much specific info would pass to Taim from any of his previous lives.  Rand has done any number of things without really understanding what he did, most of which he couldn't repeat, as far as i can recall.  Taim knowing how to test for the ability to channel strongly indicates, to me, specific knowledge that he shouln't have.  Add that to his regular use of AOL terms and attitudes ( these so-called Aiel, for eg.), and i think Taim reveals himself as something more than just one of the Forsaken's proxies.<br />  Think about it, if he was taking lessons from one of the Chosen, he'd be mad to go around revealing as much of this ancient knowledge as he has been.  Osan'gar certainly did his best to remain in the background, trying not to draw attention to himself as posessing knowledge he should not have had.  The only time he really put himself in Rand's face was when they were battling the Seanchan, and Saidin was freaking out.  Osan'gar didn't want to be burned out, or killed again.<br /> So, who do we know of, who is a male member of the Chosen, who isn't Demandred, and who wouldbe both mad and arrogant enough to shove his knowledge in Rand's face without fear of reprisal??  Which of the male forsaken have encountered Rand a number of times in battle and survived?  Ishamael, now known as Moridin.  I don't think Taim was always Moridin, but that after TFoH, when the *gars and Shaidar Haran appeared, that Ishy was also brought back, and assumed the role of Taim.  The plot given in TDR that the BA was going to turn Fain MUST have been a decoy, as it seems the BA swear an oath not to reveal any current BA plan.<br />I'm still looking for comment on this idea, and i suggest strongly that Taim's character fits very closely to what we've seen of Moridin.  Does anyone else agree, or find major flaws with this idea??<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /> Consciousness is a symptom of disease <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /> Baphomet 23 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /> Baphomet 23 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br />Give me the strength to change the things I can, the grace to accept the things I cannot, and a great big bag of money.<br /><br />My online gallery:<br />http://daveb23.deviantart.com/gallery/<br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-13 23:00:47
subject: <b>A few flaws, yeah..</b>
body:
I don't think Moridin would take it upon himself to deal with Rand via a disguise.  Also, he would have revealed himself to the Fab Four instead of remaining as Taim.  And I don't think he would be able to give up channeling the more-addictive-than-heroin True Power long enough to masquerade as Taim.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gandalf.gif" border="0" /> A true WOTism.org original <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />LONG LIVE WOTISM PARACHAT!!!!!<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Ardente Veritate Incendite Tenebras Mundi</font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-14 11:49:42
subject: <b>RE: The taint as an effect on reborn lives</b>
body:
This theory could be true but there are some problems with the taint opening the channeler to his past life.<br /><br />First Cadsuane says &quot;Some men who can channel began to hear voices&quot; It says some.  Not all. In addition she says voices.  Not a voice.  If this theoy was true only 2 things could explain this.  A) The taint is opening multiple past lives from many different periods.  B) Only 1 voice is real and the rest are hallucinations.<br /><br />Second why haven't men who can channel rediscovered a whole mess things about the one power since the breaking.  Lews Therin has shown Rand things like entering the world of dreams physically, travling, skimming, balefire, controlling the world of dreams, activating portal stones, unraveling tied off shields, making things invicible, creating domes of airs, severing womens weaves etc.  <br /><br />This argument to can possibly be explained away.  We just don't have enough information.  <br /><br />A) Maybe Rands connection to Lews Therin is especially strong since Lews Therin is a hero bound to the horn. <br /><br />B) Rand is a especially powerful channeler.  This may explain his strong ties to Lews Therin.<br /><br />C) Maybe men who can channel have started to rediscover some things but were severed before they could learn more.  We simply don't have enough of the history to see if men during and right after the breaking started to rediscover these talents.<br /><br />However if this theory is correct it would help explain why male wilders seem to have so much more control than women wilders.   <br />


created: 2002-05-14 15:28:40
subject: <b>The Taint</b>
body:
I've seen this theory argued many times before, and my response is always the same. <br />If the taint breaks down barriers between past lives, then why didn't LTT have a &quot;voice&quot; in his head<br />in the prologue of TEOTW? <br /><br />Why did that unnamed Asha'man in PoD go mad after one day, thinking he was being attacked by spiders?<br /><br />The taint-induced madness seems to come in a variety of forms.<br /><br />***<br /><br />An alternative Rand-LTT theory is as follows:<br /><br />LTT and Rand are the same individual, with the same soul. There are no two different Dragons in existence <br />to communicate with one another. Rand is Lews Therin Telamon. They are not two seperate people who can<br />converse with one another.<br /><br />Rand is the only one who denies that he is Lews Therin Telamon, constantly reiterating that he is &quot;Rand al'Thor&quot;.<br />Rand has accepted being the Dragon Reborn, but he still hasn't accepted being LTT reborn, which he is.<br /><br />So, Rand has created a &quot;voice&quot; he terms LTT, as a mechanism to deal with memories from his past <br />incarnation. Just as Mat had memories from the &quot;Old Blood&quot;. Rand also has memories from his &quot;Old Blood&quot;<br />(LTT). Rand has information about the AoL, he doesn't believe he's LTT reborn so he argues that<br />&quot;Lews Therin's voice&quot; told him.<br /><br />Rand is partially insane. He is exhibiting clear signs of madness. An uncontrollable temper for one. While sane<br />Rand al'Thor was the type of person who never got angry (see Ravens or TEOTW in general). Now Rand is prone<br />to irrational bursts of anger. This is what Cadsuane uses to determine Rand's level of sanity in aCoS. She tries <br />to get him angry to see how rationally he acts.<br /><br />Also, in aCoS, Perrin senses in Rand a rapidly shifting scent. Not two different scents conflicting with each other, <br />which would confirm Rand's interpretation of events. But rather only ONE rapidly shifting scent, <br />the mark of a madman.


created: 2002-05-14 19:20:12
subject: <b>first punic war</b>
body:
Remember that most men who can channel don't channel as long as Rand, and certainly not as long as Taim.  Rand didn't start hearing LTT until he'd been channeling over a year, and I get the idea that the Aes Sedai catch most men before they've been channeling that long.  Most probably get gentled before they even hear the voice, or not long enough to learn anything of consequence or even long enough to know who it actually is.  Rand knew he was LTT reborn, so he knew who the voice belonged to right away.<br /><br />And Cadsuane uses the plural &quot;voiceS&quot; because she's talking about a number of men.  Multiple men, multiple voices.  &quot;Some men who can channel hear a voice&quot; suggests one voice for all men.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gandalf.gif" border="0" /> A true WOTism.org original <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />LONG LIVE WOTISM PARACHAT!!!!!<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Ardente Veritate Incendite Tenebras Mundi</font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-17 15:27:44
subject: <b>And I thought I was the only one who thought this</b>
body:
I've been theorizing with my friends (since at least as far back as LoC) that the way the Taint makes a man go insane is breaking down of the barriers between past and present lives. Good to know someone else out there has thought the same thing.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">--imlad</font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-22 16:15:07
subject: <b>that third guy</b>
body:
Answering a few questions posed in the replies to the original post as well as responding to it.<br /><br />What I am thinking is that the third person in Rand's head is the Dragon before LTT.In LoC pg 56-57(hardback) Damandred is described as follows  &quot;He had had the misfortune to be born one day after Lews Therin Telemon, who would become the Dragon...&quot;. Could be taken different ways. Maybe Demandred was just jeleous that LTT was a day older than him. Or maybe he thinks that if he had been born at the exaxt instant as LTT he might have been the Dragon instead.<br /> Now it has been stated many times that the Dragon is the DO's ancient enemy, age after age. This does not sound like a title that someone can be elected to. I believe that the pattern elected him, at birth. If John Doe had been born at that moment instead of LTT we would be calling the Dragon JD. When he reaches a certain age or a certain level of control over the power the pattern melds the experiences of the last Dragon or two into the mind of the current Dragon until there is once again only one &quot;voice&quot; inside his head. How else would he know he was the Dragon and fated to stand up to the DO?<br /> When LTT became the Dragon, he was sane. So there was little or no problem. But now Rand is already going crazy and I don't think the pattern wants the Dragon to be a mad man, so the last Dragon is trying to take over instead of meld. Problem is the last Dragon was also a mad man when he died, so it ain't going too well. Enter the Dragon before him. Problem with HIM is that he has already done his part and melded with LTT and would now have to not only take over Rand, but have to un-meld with LTT and take him over just to get to Rand. With all that going on, it is no wonder that Rand is getting the shakes and shivers when he tries to channel. There's three of them reaching for the source.<br /><br />As for how other men who can channel know how to do things, well, if someone gave you a hammer and you had never used one before, don't you think you could figure out a few uses for it? <br />And many people who go mad hear voices. Cadsuane may have simply been making an educated guess based on the many gibbering idiots- err male channellers I mean- she had run into in her long life.


created: 2002-09-04 20:51:18
subject: <b>Reply</b>
body:
The OP is a bit more complex than the hammer analogy.  Its more like giving someone a hammer and an axe and putting them in some woods and saying &quot;Build me a house&quot;.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gandalf.gif" border="0" /> A true WOTism.org original <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />LONG LIVE WOTISM PARACHAT!!!!!<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Ardente Veritate Incendite Tenebras Mundi</font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-05 15:44:00
subject: <b>how about this</b>
body:
the taint is more than just evil from the DO.  As with everything else it manifests itself.  In this case the DO captured the souls of the 100c and their corrupted souls are the voices that male chanelers hear.  Only one companion gains asendance in the mind of each chaneler.  LTT kind of got stuck in there as well when he drew so much of the tainted power into himself in TEOTW.  This would explain how Rand can communicate with LTT and all of the voices, as well as why he never heard form LTT before he started channeling.


created: 2003-05-22 12:44:34
subject: <b>Have we met before?</b>
body:
Heh, pun not intended. I heard this same exact theory about two or three years ago while working at a grocery store, from a co-worker. Maybe it's cooincedence, but....<br /><br />Well wether yer him or not, it's a good theory. One I'm unsure of. I would like to give it this backup though. Lews Therin's voice is very very pronounced in comparison to the vocies msot mentaly ill suffer from. Lews Therin(like Rand now) was a ta`veren of enoumous power as well as a channeler of great capacity. I think this could very well have to do with why Lews Therin could so directly affect Rand, where as an asha`man just mgiht here voices ranmting against him.<br /> <br />Also I'd like to point out, Taim HAS discovered things. Remermebr all those Taimandred theories, talking about how he refers to aiel in an AoL way. How he talks of Healing, and Sa`angreal and all that nice stuff. Don't you think this makes as good anm explanation for it as Taimandred or Morridin-taim? or any other theory? I think this theory  fits very well until proven wrong, and I congradulate it's poster on good thinking.


created: 2005-10-04 13:59:35
subject: <b>I agree with the first part....</b>
body:
...about the taint.  The Taint may work on minds (or souls) the way the Bore or the Dark One affects reality, breaking down the barriers of reality, corrupting the pattern.  But Taim seems like Demandred to me.


created: 2006-03-24 12:38:39
subject: <b>It makes sense</b>
body:
If you think about it the taint is from the DO who currently exists out side of time. doesn't it makes sense that it plays tricks with time? Like bringing back the spirits of  past life? Oh, and I have to agree with whoever said that it's multiple men therefor multiple voices.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Masria Sedai of the Brown Ajah<br />The Zaftig Cat Girl<br /><br />http://serpentinepoet.proboards107.com/index.cgi</font><p></p>


created: 2008-02-24 03:08:45
subject: <b>Rotting alive</b>
body:
While I'm not certain one way or another about whether the taint directly breaks down the barriers to past lives, there are a few points that are probably significant to its properties:<br /><br />* The DO's primary power is death and the manipulation of souls.  Some sort of twisting of death is likely to be what the taint is made of.<br /><br />* It does seem that the Pattern itself is the DO's prison, and victory for him means complete destruction of the Pattern.  (This makes it easy for him to promise all sorts of things to the Forsaken and DFs--only Ishamael understands the real game, and he's a nihilist anyway.)  Some sort of crossing of threads could cause the Pattern to tangle up and increase his chances of tearing it apart.<br /><br />* The other major aspect of the taint that gets short shrift is that male channelers end up rotting alive.  While this reflects the fact that the DO's touch brings death to the MCs, it's also possible that it's a side effect of this barrier breakdown.


created: 2002-05-14 15:32:31
subject: <b>Good Job Noticing</b>
body:
Nice job of noticing this in the books.  It is yet another example of Moiraine knowing and doing something that most Aes Sedai don't approve of.  This issue has been dicussed in previous theories though.


created: 2002-05-14 16:17:31
subject: <b>However</b>
body:
Don't you need your eyes open to unweave something? Remember Birgitte had to sit Elayne on her horse backwards so she could still see the weave to unweave it. However, you clearly stated that Moiraine's eyes were closed. Just my two cents.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-05-14 16:26:50
subject: <b>I agree</b>
body:
I noticed this too. I just finished reading EotW a few weeks ago. Good job.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> &quot;Those the gods wish to destroy, they first make mad&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> &quot;I would not mind you in my head, if you were not so clearly mad. -Lews Therin Telamon&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-14 16:43:37
subject: <b>Unraveling used as a weapon?</b>
body:
In PoD in the chapter Threads we see Elayne try her hand at unraveling a weave.  Specifically a gateway weave.  She fails, but during her failure she creates an explosion that obiliterates several hundred feet.  Now that the Aes Sedei know of this, and what it can do, we have to think of what this could mean in a war situation.  Will they use it to say destroy large amounts of darkfriends, and shadowspawn?


created: 2002-05-14 19:00:53
subject: <b>Rongar, no</b>
body:
It was pointed out that there is no way to control what happens.  It could've stilled Elayne (or every female channeler in sight), or other stuff.  <br /><br />However...the Seanchan and Moridin don't know what happened... (interesting, regarding Moridin).  That means chances are NONE of the Forsaken know it.  Which also helps explain why none of the Aes Sedai know it. <br /><br />That again brings up the question of not only why, but HOW Moiraine knows it.  She has too much history shown, and too many POVs to think she's other than the niece of King Lamen, gone to the tower, present when Gitara Moreso made her prediction, and hunting for the Dragon every since. <br /><br />Actually, I wouldn't be surprised to see some Browns know it, but they just don't see the need to use it or even mention it to anyone.


created: 2002-05-14 19:25:08
subject: <b>Or</b>
body:
It could also have been another thing that Jordan wrote about before he decided for sure how the OP worked, like Traveling.<br /><br />But yeah, I think Moiraine probably has more skillz than your average Aes Sedai.  And unraveling weaves could have been a Talent with her.  We never saw anything else that she was particularly good at, more so than other Aes Sedi in general (other than her Balefire knowledge).<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gandalf.gif" border="0" /> A true WOTism.org original <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />LONG LIVE WOTISM PARACHAT!!!!!<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Ardente Veritate Incendite Tenebras Mundi</font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-14 20:04:38
subject: <b>Aragorn is correct</b>
body:
I think that this wasn't RJ's intention at the time.  Although it seems to fit now, looking back.  As to Moraine knowing more than others about certain things,  she was curious.  For Twenty years she work behind the scenes to be ready when the time came.  If you have a idea what might be needed in twenty years, you prepare in advance.  Moraine has also been caught off guard as well which proves that you can't prepare for everything.<br /><br />Columbo is on the case.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-14 20:37:49
subject: <b>Maybe</b>
body:
I originally was gonna say no to this theory and there was a somewhat good reason. First off, you do need to have your eyes open to see the weaves to unravel them. But your logic does seem very sound and it sorta makes sense. Then I also though, when Rand was being held captive, and was in that chest, how did he feel the shield they had put on him? I think the answer is that you do not necessarily have to see the weaves, just feel them to unravel them.... though seeing may help. I like though<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /> True Power is knowing that you can, but you don't. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-red.gif" border="0" /> -Deathbone1 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-green.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Current rank in Wse PTS: 164 out of top 1000 (7/8/03)<br />We are men of action. Lies do not become us.<br />Life finds a way.<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-14 22:33:32
subject: <b>Rand wasn't untying a weave</b>
body:
Just like in tEotW, the Amrilyn breaks Nynaeve's hold on her, not untying the weave; Rand <i>broke</i> the knot that were tied on his own bond.  I don't think M unraveled the weave for reasons listed above, but I do think it's a decent theory.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Reality is not what it used to be. <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-14 23:49:09
subject: <b>Well... I like it!</b>
body:
Notes that as he posts this, said theory is 50 for, 0 against.  Good work!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rand.gif" border="0" /> Rand al`Thor <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rand.gif" border="0" /></b><br /><br /><font color="Blue"><b>Elayne Trakand</b></font>'s Warder and <font color="Purple"><b>Alexia</b></font>'s Guardian!</font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-15 02:04:50
subject: <b>isnt it obvious where she learnt it???</b>
body:
moiraine and lan have obviously been to the waste before, as all the aiel know of the 'last man of malkier'. i think shes already been to the waste before, and that the wise ones taught her.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">-Attila, Shai'tan's Father.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /> &lt;----- What the hell is that?<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/berelain.gif" border="0" /> &lt;----- Mmm...<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> &lt;----- Retard!</font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-15 02:10:15
subject: <b>Aiel didn't teach her.</b>
body:
I posted this on the message board, because I didn't think it would make the theroy post.  I tried to post it before, and it got tossed.  Anyway, it was pointed out that it couldn't have been the Aiel, becasue both egwene and Moiraine were shacked the the Aiel could channel, if you rememeber.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">BORDERLANDER<br /><br />TAIM WAS NEVER DEMANDRED<br />&quot;All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident.&quot; <br />- Arthur Schopenhauer <br /></font><p></p>


