# w_comment

created: 2004-09-30 11:10:59
subject: <b>Some mistakes</b>
body:
<br />        slider196,<br /><br />         I would advise you not to rely heavily on google searches to get info on Indian Mythology. A better idea would be to read the English translations of the Mahaharatha and Ramayana. <br />        Indra was not elected king of gods. The &quot;post&quot; was held by the most powerful of Gods and Indra became king when he defeated the king before him- Varuna, the Lord of the Waters. Unlike Perrin he was not all noble and responsible. An example is the story of Vritra, which I give below in a compressed form:<br />               Indra kills the son of a sage who advised the Asuras the enemies of the gods. This sage in anger prays to Brahma(the creator in the Trimoorthi) and as a boon asks for a person who would be the enemy of Indra- namely Vritra who could be killed neither at night nor day, neither by water nor by fire.<br />       The Gods in hopes of avoiding all out war ask Indra to make peace with Vritra, who accepts, though he mistrusts Indra. Indra becomes jealous of Vritra who is respected now since he agreed for peace. He asks Shiva (destroyer) for a boon- a weapon that would kill Vritra.<br />       Indra then asks Vritra to meet him near a beach at sunset. There he uses this weapon which produces a deadly foam which kills Vritra.<br />       A lot more things follow, but the point is Indra did have serious flaws. Yet, he undergoes long penence, giving up kingship and returns later cured of all wrong.<br /> <br />         Rudra/Shiva is called the destroyer of &quot;evil&quot;. His temper is well known and the word Rudra refers to this. Yet he is considered to be very wise, and those he loves, he loves greatly.<br />         The father of all the Devatas,Indra, Varuna,      Yama(god of death), Surya(sun), etc is the sage Kashyapa.  The trinity of Brahma, Vishnu(protector of good), Shiva and their spouces is considered to be above the Devatas.<br />Also there is no concept of an Earth God in Indian Myth. Mother Earth is considered to be Bhumi(translated as land) Devi is revered as the one who holds the earth and cares for it.<br />        A better parallel can be drawn between the Wot tree  <br />and the Pandava brothers of the Mahabharatha. They are(in order decreasing ages) of ages:<br /> Yudhishtra- son on Yama the god of death and righteousness. He was wise and considered to be the most righteous of men He uttered only one lie in life and has the distinction of the only man to have walked into Heaven in his body. He wielded the Javelain and the spear.<br /> Bheema- Son of Vayu the Wind god. He was the strongest of the five brithers and an expert in the use of the mace. He was a mischeivous man, an aknowledged flirt, though no gambler. Had a short temper but never nursed greviences.<br /> Arjuna- son of Indra. The greatest archer of all time and the closest friend of Krishna the incarnation of Vishnu. If the Mahabharatha can be said to revolve around one charecter(impossible though that may seem) it would be this man. is a household name in India, and children still look up to him as a role model.<br /> Nakula and Sahadeva- twins who were the sons of the divine twins, the Aswini Kumaras who were healers. Nakula was the handsomest of the five and Sahadeve the wisest and most knowledgeable. Both were the best swordsmen of their day.<br /> <br />  I won't say that Mat, Rand or Perrin resemble any one of these in particelar put a load of similarities can be drawn. <br /> Of these I am inclined to connect Rand with Arjuna, Perrin with Yudhishtra and Mat with Bheema, though certain charecteristics overlap.


created: 2003-05-03 00:18:05
subject: <b>I'd hope that RJ has let us see Mesaana's alter ego.</b>
body:
I seem to remember that RJ has stated that we have enough information to determine who all of the Forsaken are.  I think he meant something more specific then Jane Secretary to some random Aes Sedai.  (Then again he later stated that we haven't seen Demandred's alter ego.)<br /><br />There is a huge lack of suitable candidates.  Danelle Sedai is the most popular candidate only by default.<br /><br />That being said, I do like your point that Mesaana has been absent for a number of meetings.  It isn't 100% fool proof, but it is one more small piece of evidence.<br /><br />By the way, RJ has stated that it is possible to diguise your strength partially but that very few women know how to do this.  'A few' means someone knows how to do it.  The most likely candidates are Forsaken.  (This may be common knowledge in the AoL, since it would be dangerous for Lanfear to walk around the WT disguised as Elsie, who is a channeler.)<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">RabidWombat<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> Let the Lord of Rambling Thoughts rule <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> Proud owner of a 2 star rating! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /> Someone stole all my cookies <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-05-03 03:27:18
subject: <b>The only problem I see</b>
body:
Is just the same as is stated above; that RJ would not just make some random secretary a Forsaken. This theory has some really good points and IMO takes some of the air out of the Danelle theory, which, until now I agreed with 100%.


created: 2003-05-03 03:58:07
subject: <b>I agree pretty much with theory,</b>
body:
though personally I've always suspected that head cook person, who helped Min free Siuan.  She seemed, I dunno, odd.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Moridin/Ishamael's spiritual advisor.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-green.gif" border="0" /> Jedi Knight <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-green.gif" border="0" /><br />Proud Warder to Tatayana and Lanfear81.<br />In love with a beautiful English lady.<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-05-03 04:29:20
subject: <b>About hiding your strength</b>
body:
The example with Dashiva isn't worth much, since the situation is different for men. Men's strength in the OP cannot be &quot;felt&quot; like the women's strength can, since the man needs to hold as much of the OP as he can in order for other men to &quot;measure&quot; him.<br />Women can feel the others strength without them channeling.<br />But that does not disprove your theory of course.<br /><br />Great theory!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>F&#246;r &#246;vrigt anser jag att Mordor b&#246;r f&#246;rst&#246;ras.</i></font><p></p>


created: 2003-05-03 07:58:21
subject: <b>Laras it is.</b>
body:
I have always felt that Lara's was Mesaana.<br />Ideal position of head cook gives you access to all AS.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" />shadow killer<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-05-03 09:46:21
subject: <b>Why would Laras take an interest in Min's girly guise?</b>
body:
It doesn't seem in character with Mesaana.  This is an excellent theory.  A further reason why she probably isn't Aes Sedai, is the way the Shadow handled the Aran'gar insertion operation.  They captured an Aes Sedai and put their best torturer to work getting every bit of information they could out of her to brief Aran'gar for her role as a servant to an Aes Sedai, and a former personal friend of Cabrianna.  It would have been far more convenient to pose as Cabrianna if it was possible, but lame-ass romantic comedies not withstanding, it is almost impossible to consistantly pose as a specific person without their active cooperation, day in and day out to their co-workers, friends and intimate acquaintances, many of whom have well-trained analytical minds, and memories that go back centuries. All it would take to mess up the imposture would be Mesaana's hypothetical identity holding back or altering some critical detail that would expose her to an acquaintance, and the interogators wouldn't know the truth (if they did, they wouldn't have to ask).  Unless she had access to her victims's memories, Mesaana would be unlikely (not a gambler, remember) to risk exposure that way.  If there was some way to get all a person's memories, then the Shadow would have used it to have Aran'gar infiltrate Salidar.  And don't say they wouldn't have thought of it.  The Shadow (not necessarily individual Forsaken) doesn't miss a trick as Bors observed in tGH prologue; they aren't our hapless, amnesiac protagonists.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


created: 2003-05-03 13:31:00
subject: <b>You've spent alot of your time with this.....</b>
body:
.....theory.  A lot of your evidense against Mesaana being Aes Sedai supports the idea that Danelle is Mesaana.  <br /><br />1. A sister of the Brown ajah that isn't well known.  ( Even to the likes of Suin Sanche early in the series)<br />2. A sister that isn't expected to socialize with other sisters.<br />3. A sister that isn't expected to be present at gatherings and meetings.<br />4. A sister that isn't asked her opinions of the current events.  Isn't asked to be involved.<br /><br />Someone who can leave and every one believes she's studying in the Library.<br /><br />BUT!!! someone who gets involved in the disposal of Suin Sanche????<br /><br />Other sisters have noticed inconcistincies in her behavior.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2003-05-03 21:41:44
subject: <b>Pretty obvious</b>
body:
We already new she couldn't be a sister.<br /><br />One point though - making her the secretary to a Black Sister - does RJ have so little imagination he will use exactly the same disguise for two Chosen (think Salidar)? I don't think so. I also don't think that Mesaana is using her exact face as a disguise - she is subtly altering it (which we have been told is the easiest weave to hold, and the least likely to be broken), which is why she only looks familiar. Laras the head cook is easily the best bet. Why did she help free Siuan? And befriend Min? If she isn't Chosen, it is about as credible as a chef turning out to be a master anti-terroism crusader on a hijacked train (aka Steven Segal).


created: 2003-05-04 01:31:04
subject: <b>Both Mesaana and Danelle could be Danelle</b>
body:
Mesaana could have Danelle under strong compulsion - hence the dreaminess - and have her appear in public just enough to dispel any rumors that someone was posing as her.  But Mesaana could also force Danelle to stay out of sight when she wanted free movement within the WT (disguised as Danelle).  Having Danelle around would cover those situations when Mesaana is worried about slip-ups.  She is no gambler, after all.  It would also explain why Mesaana can't leave the WT very much.  It simply would not do to leave Danelle sitting around with a brain turned into mush from Compulsion to be discovered by anybody.<br /><br />I agree that it would be pretty lame to have Mesaana be Jane Secretary.  Moreover, isn't Laras first encountered too early in the WOT series for Mesaana to be freed from the Bore?  I don't know, I just seemed to think so.  <br /><br />To put it all together, Mesaana could have arrived in the tower claiming to be the woman with two suitors, stuck around long enough to figure out how things worked, and finally jumped Danelle, so to speak.  There is no way she could have just appeared and duped Danelle right away, there was too much to learn to make the integration as seamless as possible.<br /><br />Just for the sake of the storyline, it would be interesting if the above were true.  I don't think RJ would want to repeat either the Brend formula or the Anath formula if another option presented itself.  This seems like just such an option.<br /><br />We still have to explain how Alviarin, a White, has somehow forgotten a fact - who Mesaana looks like.  I posit that Mesaana has used enough Compulsion (or something similar) on Alviarin to make her hazy on where she has seen Mesaana's face before.  Even though SH removed the Source when he punished Mesaana, the damage done to Alviarin's memory by her weaves would persist.  So why does M now have to kill A?  Probably because she knows that as a White, Alviarin is driven to piece together facts and to figure out logical puzzles.  We've seen that people under Compulsion can resist when the urge is particularly strong (Morgase), so Mesaana is worried that Alviarin will eventually figure out that she came into the tower as the harried woman and trace her from there and eventually have big time leverage over her.<br /><br />All of this seems to fit together in what I think is a fairly simple explanation.  Flame away.<br /><br />The Fisher King


created: 2003-05-04 01:41:21
subject: <b>not Danelle</b>
body:
Why would RJ mention Mesaana's bronze (copper?) skirt with black scrollwork that Alviarin sees whilst kissing the hem, and then later specifically describe Danelle's outfit as NOT matching that description unless he's trying to tell us, &quot;Psst, Mesaana isn't Danelle&quot;?<br /><br />As for Mesaana using her real face, Alviarin glimpses Mesaana's face after the shadows lurch, but before SH shows up.  IF we assume Mesaana DOES use a disguise, I'm not sure we can conclusively prove that the face Alviarin sees is Mesaana's true face because that would be mean Mesaana was sooo frightened by the lurching shadows that she forgot her disguise.  Granted Alviarin detects fear in the face she sees, but was Mesaana is a hardened Forsaken.  IF we say Mesaana DOESN'T use a disguise, then I think this is good proof that Mesaana IS hiding as a servant.  I agree that Alviarin the self-righteous wouldn't ever spend much time getting to know the help, which is probably one of the classic blunders of all failed rulers.<br /><br />I'm not sure about Laras.  Part of me says yes, part says no.  Until Alviarin failed to recognize Mesaana, I wanted to believe in Danelle (despite the inconsistency in her skirts), but now, given CoT, she's more likely using her own face than freaking out by lurching shadows and dropping her disguise.  She didn't have a disguise to drop.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Live as if you were living for the second time and had acted as wrongly the first time as you are about to act now.  -VF</font><p></p>


created: 2003-05-04 03:00:18
subject: <b>Tantalisingly familiar</b>
body:
The other place that we have heard this explanation is when an Aes Sedai has been stilled. Once her face loses the ageless quality she looks familiar but not quite like the original(eg. when Siuan et al arrive in Salidar). I'm not sure what that really means for Mesaana but it was just the turn of phrase that stood out to me. Perhaps Leane has been very busy...


created: 2003-05-04 04:14:11
subject: <b>Thanks for the responses and a few answers</b>
body:
About Laras,<br />In my opinion Mesaana can't be Laras, too. We have the same problems like with Mesaana being an Aes Sedai. <br /><br />It's really not likely that Mesaana's face looks by chance like Laras, and therefore took her face as a disguise. Once again, in the scene we see Mesaana's real face since the One Power vanished when SH appeared.<br />Also the problems with getting <i> all </i> informations out of Laras to play her convincing remain.<br />Mesaana had really hard to work and had to stay in the kitchen etc.<br />For this (but also because she helps Min e.g.), I'm sure Mesaana is not Laras, but must have created a new servant identity with her real face. Anything else doesn't really fit with the facts. <br /><br /><br />@ Cannoli<br /><br /><b> It doesn't seem in character with Mesaana. This is an excellent theory. A further reason why she probably isn't Aes Sedai, is the way the Shadow handled the Aran'gar insertion operation. They captured an Aes Sedai and put their best torturer to work getting every bit of information they could out of her to brief Aran'gar for her role as a servant to an Aes Sedai, and a former personal friend of Cabrianna. It would have been far more convenient to pose as Cabrianna if it was possible, but lame-ass romantic comedies not withstanding, it is almost impossible to consistantly pose as a specific person without their active cooperation, day in and day out to their co-workers, friends and intimate acquaintances, many of whom have well-trained analytical minds, and memories that go back centuries. All it would take to mess up the imposture would be Mesaana's hypothetical identity holding back or altering some critical detail that would expose her to an acquaintance, and the interogators wouldn't know the truth (if they did, they wouldn't have to ask). Unless she had access to her victims's memories, Mesaana would be unlikely (not a gambler, remember) to risk exposure that way. If there was some way to get all a person's memories, then the Shadow would have used it to have Aran'gar infiltrate Salidar. And don't say they wouldn't have thought of it. The Shadow (not necessarily individual Forsaken) doesn't miss a trick as Bors observed in tGH prologue; they aren't our hapless, amnesiac protagonists. </b><br /><br />Good points, though Aran'gar had difficulties to pose as Cabriana since she channels only Saidin.<br /><br />But we see that Semirhage creates rather a new identity as Tuon's new Truthspeaker Anath, than to get all informations out of her former Truthspeaker Neferi (who Semirhage probably killed) and pose as her. <br />If it would be possible to get all informations (not only memories but alos how he walks, speaks, laughs etc. etc.) out of a human to play him, why didn't the Forsaken, who is best in torture, do it?<br /><br /><br />@ Columbo<br /><br /><b> A lot of your evidense against Mesaana being Aes Sedai supports the idea that Danelle is Mesaana. <br />1. A sister of the Brown ajah that isn't well known. ( Even to the likes of Suin Sanche early in the series)<br />2. A sister that isn't expected to socialize with other sisters.<br />3. A sister that isn't expected to be present at gatherings and meetings.<br />4. A sister that isn't asked her opinions of the current events. Isn't asked to be involved.<br /><br />Someone who can leave and every one believes she's studying in the Library.<br /><br />BUT!!! someone who gets involved in the disposal of Suin Sanche????<br /><br />Other sisters have noticed inconcistincies in her behavior. </b><br /><br />Of course, Danelle was a good theory and some things fit! <br /><br />The mistake in your thoughts is that not <b> all </b> hints support the Danelle theory but some speak clearly against it. You ignore e.g. the new points from CoT. <br />If you want to find out who Mesaana is, all evidences I showed must fit with this candidate. That's not the case with Danelle or other Aes Sedai.<br /><br />How can Mesaana's real face look like Danelle's? <br />Do you really think that Mesaana came to the WT, searched for an Aes Sedai she could play and find, very luckily, one who has not many friends in the WT, is in the Brown Ajah (what fits with Mesaana being a teacher) <i> and </i> looks like her? <br />Ok, you can always argue that Mesaana is ta'veren or something but it's rather unlikely.   <br /><br />BTW, the &quot;inconcistincies in her bevaviour&quot; are perhaps another hint that Danelle is under compulsion?  <br /><br /><br />@ Adrian<br /><br /><b> We already new she couldn't be a sister. </b><br /><br />Well I have not the feeling that it was obvious. <br />Most people believed she is an Aes Sedai. <br />Why do you think it was obvious that she could not be a sister?<br /><br /><b> One point though - making her the secretary to a Black Sister - does RJ have so little imagination he will use exactly the same disguise for two Chosen (think Salidar)? I don't think so. I also don't think that Mesaana is using her exact face as a disguise - she is subtly altering it (which we have been told is the easiest weave to hold, and the least likely to be broken), which is why she only looks familiar. Laras the head cook is easily the best bet. Why did she help free Siuan? And befriend Min? If she isn't Chosen, it is about as credible as a chef turning out to be a master anti-terroism crusader on a hijacked train (aka Steven Segal). </b><br /><br />It could also be that she has an Aes Sedai under compulsion. It would be interesting to search for someone who behaves strange. Maybe Danelle? <br /><br />As I said above Mesaana can't be Laras.


created: 2003-05-04 11:51:45
subject: <b>RJ does use stuff more than once.</b>
body:
Some people have expressed the opinion that Jordan would never repeat a guise or infiltration strategy, when he has already repeated methods and devices.  Sammael, Bel'al, and Rahvin all used essentially the same plan to take over Illian, Tear and Andor, respectively.  That is, each one posed as an obscure noble from a remote part of the country, and used Compulsion to have their ideas and credentials accepted by the rulers, and eventually replaced them.  Of course, the three nations have slightly different forms of government, so they didn't follow their plans identically, but they were all essentially the same.  Elayne and Roedran are using the exact same strategy to unite Andor and Murandy, respectively, under their control.  They allow a foreign army (the Borderlanders and the Band of the Red Hand) to pose a threat and rally the most powerful nobles in the name of patriotism to follow them in driving out the invaders, and then negotiate them out.  Egwene used a similar plan to gather recruits to her cause as she passed through Murandy and Altara.  Also, in spite of things said in the discussion about this very theory, Mesaana and Aran'gar are similar in that they are working through the influence of highly placed Black Ajah sisters in both camps, rather than seizing power for themselves under an assumed identity.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


created: 2003-05-04 16:37:34
subject: <b>Lets face it</b>
body:
Laras is NOT Mesaana in disguise (i know it's clear already but I just want to say this).<br />The answer is that it would be quite difficult for Mesaana to disguise as Laras because,<br />Laras is big as half a mountain!<br />we all know that the person you want as a disguise shall be about the same height and weight as yourself.<br />Just wanted to make it clear to all the still-confused folks =)


created: 2003-05-04 18:50:09
subject: <b>Laras</b>
body:
Her size is a telling point - but hardly conclusive with the One Power to change appearances (even a couple of pillows and makeup could do it).<br /><br />Plus, you then need to come up with a completely new theory as to who Laras is - she is definately more than she seems:<br />- is never shocked by anything that happens, has a powerful presence, is not awed by Aes Sedi<br />- oversaw Elayne and Egwene when they were in trouble just before Liandrin came into the kitchen to give them to the Seachan<br />- conviently makes friends with Min (alters her visions?), Min is diverted very easily when she is talking to Laras<br />- frees Siuan directly causing the split in the One Tower to persist (Dark One would be happy)<br /><br />Who is she then? Her character is like Setelle Atan in that she has been set up to be more than she appears to be.  <br />


created: 2003-05-04 22:19:01
subject: <b>Question about Laras:</b>
body:
do we know when she took over as head in the Tower?  This is a very long shot on my part admittedly, but we meet Laras after we know at least 4 of the forsaken were free..<br />solves problems of taking over identity if there was no real Laras in first place<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Moridin/Ishamael's spiritual advisor.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-green.gif" border="0" /> Jedi Knight <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-green.gif" border="0" /><br />Proud Warder to Tatayana and Lanfear81.<br />In love with a beautiful English lady.<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-05-04 22:45:57
subject: <b>Laras.</b>
body:
All we know about how long Laras was in the kitchen is a thought from Suian that seems to suggest she was there for a while.  I think it is in tSR before Suian was stilled.  Suian notices that both Laras in the kitchen and Danelle with the masons were overspending.  If Laras is Mesaana then she used compulsion on Suian to make her think she has been there for a while.<br /><br />As far as how long Mesaana has been free, we know that Mesaana was proud of her and Be'lals plan to trap Rand.  That means she was probably freed from the bore sometime before the beginning of tDR.  (Be'lal's plan is first put into action at the beginning of tDR.)  That doesn't mean she is firmly established in the tower at that point.  On the other hand certain parts of the plan like luring the 3 ladies to Tear would be made easier if Mesaana was in the tower.<br /><br />As was stated above Laras is extremly big while Mesaana is not.  This is a huge point against her being Mesaana.  On the other hand Lanfear posed as the very large Keille in the waste.  Maybe the trick involves wearing fat suits.<br /><br />It would be very ironic indeed if Mesaana turned out to be Laras.  The chances are slim, but it could be.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">RabidWombat<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> Let the Lord of Rambling Thoughts rule <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> Proud owner of a 2 star rating! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /> Someone stole all my cookies <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-05-05 04:07:39
subject: <b>She was BOTH</b>
body:
Mesaana was both Danelle (or A sister, at any rate), AND she was posing as a servant using her real face, so she could get into every nook and cranny of WT unseen. There will have been some places an AS would draw attention eavesdropping or skulking, either for her reputation, Ajah, or the very fact she is AS.<br /><br />OR Mesaana maybe posing in a prominent position using her real features OUTside the WT, and Alvi has seen her and even spoken to her on her excursions outside. She could be anyone, a leader, royal advisor etc.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">My real life photo is at:<br /><br />http://groups.msn.com/ClanUL/hbiram.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&amp;PhotoID=863<br /><br />KLINGON bastards.... you've killed my SON!<br /><br />WoT: Good story... if only he knew how to tell it. Kerching.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-05-05 12:32:02
subject: <b>The Mesaana/Laras weight thing</b>
body:
Mesaana could disguise herself as a fat woman. Its a great disguise,  no one would expect it (and it would explain why Alviarin almost recognized her!). And we know its possible because Lanfear did it when she was with the peddler in the Aiel waste.<br />Besides, I think I recall that RJ said that we've met all of the forsaken's alter egos, so I think that this is the more likely than a nameless, unmet, secretary. <br /><br />Kitten


created: 2003-05-05 15:08:15
subject: <b>On Laras</b>
body:
Just to complicate the ideas floating around about Laras a little...<br /><br />In TDR Laras overseas the girls performing their chores in the kitchen.  Siuan comes and names her Mistress of the Kitchens.  At that point we are given to understand that Laras has been working at the Tower for a long time and Laras is cowed convincingly by Siuan's presence.  <br /><br />TSR Laras behaves much more oddly, shadowing Min (whom several people are curious about), helping to free Siuan, etc.  If Mesaana is posing as Laras, she could have assumed Laras' character at some point after the Mistress of the Kitchens scene, rather than being the original.<br /><br />I don't think Laras' size is an argument against her (someone above mentioned Lanfere/Keille).  The best arguments against this idea are, in my opinion:<br /><br />1) The presumed demands on her time as Mistress of the Kitchens.  Then again, she appears to escape these pretty easily in TSR.<br />2) RJ has said the degree of one's ability to channel can be masked, which seems to indicate Mesaana could be posing as a channeler after all.<br />3) The fact that when Mesaana loses her masking in COT she seems familiar to Alviarin.  I'm willing to bet that was the real Mesaana.  The fact that Alviarin almost recognized her suggests that wherever/whoever she is in the Tower, she has inserted herself as herself or someone close to her actual appearance.  Not Laras, unless she has more than one identity in the Tower.<br /><br />That said, I'm a fan of the Laras theory.


created: 2003-05-05 17:24:14
subject: <b>Dear Etzel,</b>
body:
Please forgive my ignorance as I can't recall the clear evidense that works against Mesaana posing as Danelle.  If you would be so kind as to remind me, I would be in your debt......<br /><br />I've only read the series twice.  What I noticed a second time through is that the prior to unvieling RJ gave plenty of hints.  e.g. Dashiva couldn't ride a horse well and wore a sword as if he'd never worn one in his life.  Looking back of course these were clear give aways.  <br /><br />The same could be said of Danelle.  Danelle was present during the ruin of Suin as well as the dividing of the White Tower.  Mesaana played a key role in these.  It's interesting to note that Danelle was introduced prior to these two and played a major role in both.  <br /><br />A brown involved should have been enough for you.<br /><br />Danelle was thought of as a dreamer.  If you recall she wasn't dreamy at all when she and others came for Suin.  RJ makes a point of Suin noticing a knowing and pleased look in Danelle's eyes.  This didn't sit well with Suin and it doesn't sit well with Columbo!<br /><br />As I mentioned above, Please ignore my ignorance on the subject.  And if you'd be so kind as to enlighten me, I would be forever in your debt.<br /><br />COLUMBO IS ON THIS ONE!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2003-05-06 13:38:17
subject: <b>Columbo...</b>
body:
really don't worry. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> <br />It's difficult to have all these facts in the mind. <br />I will try to show you my evidences against Danelle or any other Aes Sedai and White Tower servants who are a long time in the Tower (though I wrote it in the theory already..).<br /><br />Anyway, there are two main points:<br /><br />1. Alviarin almost recognizes Mesaana (therefore the Forsaken wants to kill her). <br />That means Alviarin saw Mesaana's real face (besides, she can't be disguised since SH let the OP vanished). These face can tell Alviarin Mesaana's identity. <br />It's really unlikely that Mesaana's real face looks like Danelle's. It's even more unlikely that Mesaana came to the WT and found there by chance with Danelle an Aes Sedai who looks like her and has the same interests.<br /> <br />2. If you look at the other Forsaken no of them disguise for long as a real living person. <br />I think it's too difficult and risky to play someone else (you don't have enough information to be convincing). Therefore the Forsaken create new identities and take over the power (some more obvious, some less obvious).  <br /><br />and two minor points. <br />First that especially in the WT, with some Aes Sedai who are really observant it's much easier and more secure to disguise as someone in the background (a servant). Especially since Mesaana is not a gambler, it suggest itself to manipulate the WT as someone the Aes Sedai normally don't notice.<br />Second, we have Moridin's comment that Mesaana was absent at least at two meetings. Aes Sedai can leave the WT when they want (Alviarin does it). Servants probably not.<br /><br />Maybe I forget something but these are the main points against Mesaana being Danelle or another Aes Sedai, I think. <br />The first two points speak against Laras, too (besides that I'm sure Mesaana has really no interests to stay in the kitchen the whole day...).<br /><br /><br />And, to the people who mean that Mesaana has several identities, I don't think that is likely.<br />What are the advantages to be a servant <i> and </i> an Aes Sedai? I don't see any. Mesaana needs only an identity to stay in the WT without the fear to be discovered. Two identities are much less secur. But if she first was a servant (with her real face) and now is an Aes Sedai (with e.g. Danelle's face), why does she still wants to kill Alviarin when she sees the face of her old identity Mesaana doesn't use any more? It does not make much sense.   <br /><br />No. Mesaana is a servant the day and, e.g. in the night, she walks in the Tower as she wants (as Lanfear does it). <br />And by living in the WT she can control Elaida through her control of Alviarin.


created: 2003-05-06 14:05:40
subject: <b>hahahah....</b>
body:
I'm sorry I mustn't have communicated properly in my last post.  I read your theory, it's the evidence you have against Danelle I was interested in, not your theory.<br /><br />Do you have evidence or not?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2003-05-06 14:18:59
subject: <b>Um, yes...</b>
body:
though you can call the evidences also hints, proofs, indications or whatever... <br /><br />You should find them when you read my theory (&quot;Why Mesaana is not an Aes Sedai&quot;; not one of the others <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> ), or the comment above your last reply.  <br /><br />Of course there are also some hints that Danelle is Mesaana. But it just can't be if you view at all hints, as I pointed out.


created: 2003-05-06 17:06:06
subject: <b>Ok</b>
body:
So you don't have the clear evidence you spoke of in an earlier post.  Thats ok, glad we cleared it up.  You have as you said in your last post &quot;hints&quot;.  <br /><br />Looks like you spent alot of time on this theory, it should be interesting to see how it pans out.<br /><br />Guess my memory wasn't foggy after all.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2003-05-06 17:56:02
subject: <b>HAHAHAHA! Columbo, zip up your pants!</b>
body:
The guy is wet enough <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />SERIOUSLY Etzel, you need to learn the definition of evidence.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2003-05-06 18:24:21
subject: <b>Maybe, but I don't think so.</b>
body:
I find it hard to imagine that Alviarin would not immediately recognize the face of the Mistress of the Kitchens. Even though she finds servants, etc. far below her scope of importance, I doubt Laras is someone she could miss.<br />Adrian; Your point about Laras never being shocked by anything, having a powerful presence, and not being awed by Aes Sedai, could probably also be said about Lini, and I doubt she is a forsaken. Plus, if you have been in charge of women learning to become Aes Sedai for very long, I would think you'd have to take on those personality traits or get run over.<br /><br />That said, I do not have a clear idea of who Mesaana is. I am going to have to pay more attention on this next read through.<br /><br />Oh, and Myrica, I have also started to wonder about Leane since CoT, but I hope I am just getting paranoid. If she ends up bad I'll be pissed. heh.


created: 2003-05-07 11:31:58
subject: <b>Your last point meant the most</b>
body:
Is it possible to hide a <i>portion</i> of your strength, or just all of it. I can't see Mesaana walking around at full strength. That just_might_raise a few eyebrows of any woman who can channel. It would also cause eyebrows to climb through hairlines and begin going down the backs of necks, if a full Sister was walking around with <i>no</i> ability to channel. Other than figuring out exactly who Mesaana is, your theory was great!<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br /><i>I will try. Before surrendering to dreams or death, I will try.<font color="black"></font></i></font><p></p>


created: 2003-05-07 14:06:41
subject: <b>Comments</b>
body:
@ Columbo &amp; Green Gaidin,<br /><br />No doubt, you <i> are </i> an amusing couple; your &quot;hahahaha&quot; or &quot;lol!&quot; comments are always inspireing in a discussion...<br /><br />Nevertheless, it would be nice if you contribute new points about this topic (not just say there is no evidence though I present it <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> ).<br /><br />Maybe at the moment you don't know what to post. <br />So I give you a bit help for the beginning (the start is always the most difficult <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> ). <br /><br />E.g. it would be interesting how you understand the scene in &quot;A mark&quot;; what happened there? <br />Also why do you think Forsaken create new identities and not disguise as other people? <br />Finally, you could try to look after somne hints about an Aes Sedai under compulsion  (if you accept for one moment that Mesaana could be a &quot;servant&quot; of such an Aes Sedai.)<br /><br />I have the feeling you could impress the people here more by posting some constructive comments. <br />Therefore I order: go back to your books and find new points! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br /><br />@ Crazy ol Lews Therin,<br /><br />The reader shall find out Mesaana's <i> exact </i> identity. I can't tell you everything... <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />


created: 2003-05-07 14:44:12
subject:
<b>Don't get me wrong<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /></b>

body:
I <i>did</i> like the theory, and it gives me a bit to think on and research, I just thought it would have been better had you figured out who Mesaana was.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> Either way, it's more info than I've ever come up with on the topic, though that's a mystery in WoT that I really had yet to focus_too_much on.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br /><i>I will try. Before surrendering to dreams or death, I will try.<font color="black"></font></i></font><p></p>


created: 2003-05-07 20:31:28
subject: <b>Man oh man, where did this guy come from?</b>
body:
Buddy, you don't just pop in here and start armwrestling with the big guys. I understand that you may think you know a lot because after we left the discussions weren;t as detailed, but believe me: you've never been in a discussion foxhole like I have, like Columbo's been, or Matrimony. Dodge, Dave, Jim, even Vashti. The list goes on... You need a couple of years to ferment, you need to read the series a few more times, and you need to take a debating class.<br /><br />See, our opinions come from YEARS of discussion, from debates and ideas such as the CLASSIC one that outlines Demandred's Messana's and Semirhage's combined plans, the fact that the three of them ARE working contadictory to the DO's plans through a defiance of Moridin (Hello 'Mark'), and the simple fact that Messana HAS to lay low. Women can judge relative strength, and thirteen linked can defeat ANYONE. There is a reason for Danelle to stay hidden away like a solitary brown. There is also a reason that her name is marked in acdfordance with the extra soldier hirelings, and there is a reason that Siuan picks HER out of a room full of sisters to confront her. It's RJ's writing style. So instead of running your mouth looking for 'proof' against you oh so amazing arguments, maybe you should invest some time reader the 90+ response debates and then come back to try and play your high hand.<br /><br />Oh, lol, hahaha, and IMHO. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Columbo, give me a fiver!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2003-05-08 04:05:35
subject:
<b>Aha, a real comment from Green Gaidin! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /></b>

body:
<b> Buddy, you don't just pop in here and start armwrestling with the big guys. I understand that you may think you know a lot because after we left the discussions weren;t as detailed, but believe me: you've never been in a discussion foxhole like I have, like Columbo's been, or Matrimony. Dodge, Dave, Jim, even Vashti. The list goes on... You need a couple of years to ferment, you need to read the series a few more times, and you need to take a debating class. </b><br /><br />Really, I'm certain you know a lot about the WoT and that is very good; it makes the dicussion more interesting. <br /><br />Now after you said your opinion, I will say what I think about your points.  <br />In any case, you should not take it personal if someone differs from your opinion, after all it's mainly fun here! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br /><b> See, our opinions come from YEARS of discussion, from debates and ideas such as the CLASSIC one that outlines Demandred's Messana's and Semirhage's combined plans, the fact that the three of them ARE working contadictory to the DO's plans through a defiance of Moridin (Hello 'Mark'), and the simple fact that Messana HAS to lay low. </b> <br /><br />Well, I don't think Demandred, Semirhage and Mesaana are working together against Moridin's/ the DO's real plan (who obviously only Moridin really knows).  <br />From Demandred's POV we know that the three only don't want to attack each other.<br />Also I don't see what advantage they could get from standing against the DO. There are other problems, but it's a bit off-topic here.<br />No, interesting thought, but certainly wrong.<br /><br /><b> Women can judge relative strength, and thirteen linked can defeat ANYONE. There is a reason for Danelle to stay hidden away like a solitary brown. There is also a reason that her name is marked in acdfordance with the extra soldier hirelings, and there is a reason that Siuan picks HER out of a room full of sisters to confront her. It's RJ's writing style. </b> <br /><br />Don't you think that Mesaana is even more secure if she is a servant than an Aes Sedai who is more in the view of other Aes Sedai? <br /><br />The other point about RJ'S wrtiting style is rather weak. Everybody knows the Taim fiasco <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />. I'm sure you know how many evidences we had for Taimandred. But with WH it was killed. <br />Sadly you (like Columbo) also ignore the new points I write in my theory and don't say anything about it. <br />Why does Mesaana's real face looks familiar? <br />How can you get all information out of a person?   <br />You surly know a lot about the books, but there are new points in a new book which should make you think if your theory can still be right. <br />You just repeat the old hints, which everybody knows, that Danelle could be Mesaana without seeing the new facts.  <br />I think with CoT it's clear that Mesaana can't be an Aes Sedai (as it was with WH that Taim is not Demandred).<br /><br /><b> So instead of running your mouth looking for 'proof' against you oh so amazing arguments, maybe you should invest some time reader the 90+ response debates and then come back to try and play your high hand. </b><br /><br />I never say they are &quot;amazing&quot;.....they are SPECTACULAR! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />No really, I think the arguments I write in my theory are right and quite logical. <br />Before nobody can explain these problems in another way, I'm sure Mesaana can't be Danelle or another Aes Sedai.<br /><br />(You see, now the discussion is more interesting, as I said <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> )


created: 2003-05-08 06:08:19
subject: <b>Sorry, but I still don't understand</b>
body:
RJ said we've seen all the Forsaken disguises except Demandred, so Mesaana simply has to be someone we know, and I assume that it means a named character who has been in several scenes. Which White Tower inhabitants do we know? Well, quite a lot of Aes Sedai, but only one servant: Laras, and Mesaana would have a very, very hard time indeed posing as someone who has been well known to all servants, novices and accepted for decades and to most AS as well. Someone who is in fact much more well known and therefore more difficult to imitate then a sister like Danelle. I realize it is much easier to burn somebody's theory then writing one yourself, but if you want to keep up your theory of Mesaana being a servant you should either give us some convincing evidence against Laras or list a number of other suspect servants (I cannot remember any other named WT servants)


created: 2003-05-08 06:35:43
subject: <b>question I ask..</b>
body:
Is as Danelle was with the Aes Sedai who overthrew Siuan, smirking at her and everything, with Alviarin, and Alviarin being of the White, supposedly, surely if Alviarin saw Danelle she'd recognise her, not be tantalised by the familiarity? Else a pretty poor mind for a White, even given the shocks she'd had.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Moridin/Ishamael's spiritual advisor.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-green.gif" border="0" /> Jedi Knight <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-green.gif" border="0" /><br />Proud Warder to Tatayana and Lanfear81.<br />In love with a beautiful English lady.<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-05-08 06:42:50
subject: <b>respond to smallcatharine and gban007</b>
body:
<b> RJ said we've seen all the Forsaken disguises except Demandred, so Mesaana simply has to be someone we know, and I assume that it means a named character who has been in several scenes. Which White Tower inhabitants do we know? Well, quite a lot of Aes Sedai, but only one servant: Laras, and Mesaana would have a very, very hard time indeed posing as someone who has been well known to all servants, novices and accepted for decades and to most AS as well. Someone who is in fact much more well known and therefore more difficult to imitate then a sister like Danelle. I realize it is much easier to burn somebody's theory then writing one yourself, but if you want to keep up your theory of Mesaana being a servant you should either give us some convincing evidence against Laras or list a number of other suspect servants (I cannot remember any other named WT servants) </b><br /><br />My theory is about the point that Mesaana can't be an Aes Sedai, Accepted or a Novice. <br />Furthermore I say that she can't be a person like Laras because her real face can't look like Laras face. <br />You gave already points against Laras and there are others mentioned above.<br />I say that Mesaana is a not physical working servant, probably a secretary of an Aes Sedai. But I don't have the name, that's right.<br /><br />I don't know what RJ said about the Forsaken identities (but he said that also Asmo's killer is obvious <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" />) but I think at the moment it's very hard to figure out who Mesaana is exactly.<br />Also you must decide when you write a theory if you take the material from the books or build it up on something RJ may have said someone. <br /><br />I have the hope that with this theory people concentrate on other candidates (e.g. when they reread the series) and not accept too fast the Danelle theory which has some big problems in my opinion and can't be right. <br /><br />Therefore I believe this theory has some worth by making the reader think more about these problems.  <br /><br />gban007,<br /><br />Yes, that is true, Danelle was a member of Elaida's coup. Besides, Alviarin is the one who says Danelle is a dreamy Brown sister in her POV (ACoS, prologue, pg.30). That means Alviarin knows her quite good. <br />And the problem is that it would be really weird if Mesaana's real face plus the ageless look is similiar to Danelle's face.


created: 2003-05-08 10:58:00
subject: <b>If not an Aes Sedai...</b>
body:
This post isn't so much a theory as a point of discussion that I didn't see represented in the list of comments (this is also my second all-time post, so be gentle...)<br /><br />If Mesanna is likely to be a servant because she is not immediately recognized and cannot get away regularly, why not an Accepted?  RJ indicated that masking as a lesser channeler is possible, an Accepted could certainly have the run of the Tower and grounds, and the simple chores that an Accepted does (such as scribing for Aes Sedai) would give much information to the dark side.<br /><br />Biggest problems:  <br />- Accepted don't wear dresses with bronze hems<br />- Accepted are rarely raised from novices in less than 5-10 years, so she would have to be there for some time <br />OR<br />- Accepted generally are well known to each other so she would need a &quot;loner&quot;<br />- we don't know that many Accepted either (just like the servants).


created: 2003-05-09 19:07:16
subject: <b>Why don't we ever see Laras taking a bath?</b>
body:
Elayne, Aviendha, Egwene, and Birgitte have all been in bathtub scenes, even Rand has.  Why no Laras?  Or in a sweat tent?  Shouldn't there be some kind of naked ceremony for raising the Mistress of the Kitchens?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


created: 2003-05-11 12:20:52
subject: <b>good work</b>
body:
I think this theory is well thought out and has lots of good evidence behind it.  Nice job.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="Plum">Gena Sedai</font></font><p></p>


created: 2003-05-12 14:35:48
subject: <b>Case of mistaken identity.</b>
body:
The broad strokes;<br /><br />First a quick lesson.<br /><br />In the past the Forsaken that have hid their identity ( Moggy, Osangar, Rahvin, Sammy, Lanfear, and Asmodean) Physically or by name, have always given themselves away.  RJ has always left clues to follow.  Looking back hindsight is 20/20 in all cases thus far.  eg. Dashiva used old tongue, barely ride a horse or use a sword.  I think its safe to say that after ten books RJ has left enough clues to determine who Mesaana is posing as in the White Tower.  Mesaana has also been very active in the tower for quite some time.  I'm of the belief that we've seen her in action as Danelle of the Brown Ajah.<br /><br />The one thing we know for sure is that she is not running around the tower using the name Mesaana and most likely she's altered her appearance as well.  I'm going to assume then that Mesaana has created or stolen an identity, myself leaning to the later as I've already pointed out.  Mesaana was the mastermind behind bringing down Suin Sanche which also help result in the split of the tower.  More recently Mesaana has taken to using Alvairin to control and spy on Elaida.  Danelle played an big role in the former.  It's extremley suspicious for a brown to be involed in the first place.  I'm not getting into anymore details,  most know of them and are suspicious of Danelle already.<br /><br />One last point I'd like to make.  The weakest or should I say the least flexible of the forsaken are dead.  The point I'm trying to make is that, the remaining forsaken have shown the ability to change with the changes around them.  Also likely to be using more than one identity.  We've seen it done in the past ( Lanfear ) <br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2003-05-14 06:39:42
subject: <b>re columbo - couple of questions:</b>
body:
why Mesaana needed to hide her face from Alvairin (forgive spelling), and when the disguise was shattered, the face was tantalisingly familiar.   Your idea of perhaps multilple identities could explain it, that Danelle is a disguise, she truly looks like someone else.  Problem is the complications this causes, in running two different people without arising suspicion would be hard, likelihood at least one identity isn't used that often, and the paranoic state the Tower is in, I'm sure people would pick up on suspicious activity fairly quickly, and while probably not act, at least watch.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Moridin/Ishamael's spiritual advisor.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-green.gif" border="0" /> Jedi Knight <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-green.gif" border="0" /><br />Proud Warder to Tatayana and Lanfear81.<br />In love with a beautiful English lady.<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-05-14 13:08:04
subject: <b>*raises hand*</b>
body:
eh...<br />I just want to point back to an earlier comment.... <br />there are afterall not just Aes Sedai, Accepted, novices and servants in the tower, there are also the &quot;women in hiding&quot; or whatever one should call them. Min posed as one of those afterall....<br />The things supporting this theory is this:<br />The ability to channel can be masked.<br />They have a relativlely free run in the WT, not quite like that of a servant but still good.<br />Alvarin (sp?) has no reason to be familiar with any of those women.<br /><br />Mesaana can still have Danelle by the scruff of her neck, like Aran'gar has Delana


created: 2003-05-14 14:21:20
subject: <b>Replies to Columbo and Zelion</b>
body:
Columbo,<br /><br /><b> In the past the Forsaken that have hid their identity ( Moggy, Osangar, Rahvin, Sammy, Lanfear, and Asmodean) Physically or by name, have always given themselves away. RJ has always left clues to follow. Looking back hindsight is 20/20 in all cases thus far. eg. Dashiva used old tongue, barely ride a horse or use a sword. I think its safe to say that after ten books RJ has left enough clues to determine who Mesaana is posing as in the White Tower. Mesaana has also been very active in the tower for quite some time. I'm of the belief that we've seen her in action as Danelle of the Brown Ajah. </b><br /><br />RJ gave us some hints that Mesaana could be Danelle. But with CoT he gave us the proof that she is not Danelle! <br />I must say before CoT I followed also the Danelle theory because there was no better.<br /><br />Now, in retrospective I must say it was never such a convincing theory. There aren't so many hints for Danelle. I think the main hints were that Danelle is a dreamy, not very popular Brown Aes Sedai and Mesaana has a bronze skirt, was a teacher.  <br /><br />On the other hand, before WH we had the theory that Demandred is Taim. There were many very convincing hints (much more as for Danelle/Mesaana). <br />Then in WH (to our surprize) Demandred didn't recognize Flinn and thus this theory was dead. We still don't know who or where Demandred is (though I say with Masema... <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> ).<br /><br />In any case, I just want to say that the fact that RJ gave us a few hints that Danelle is Mesaana doesn't mean much, especially after &quot;A Mark&quot;. It seems Danelle was a red herring, a bit like Taim.  <br /><br /><b> The one thing we know for sure is that she is not running around the tower using the name Mesaana and most likely she's altered her appearance as well. I'm going to assume then that Mesaana has created or stolen an identity, myself leaning to the later as I've already pointed out. Mesaana was the mastermind behind bringing down Suin Sanche which also help result in the split of the tower. More recently Mesaana has taken to using Alvairin to control and spy on Elaida. Danelle played an big role in the former. It's extremley suspicious for a brown to be involed in the first place. I'm not getting into anymore details, most know of them and are suspicious of Danelle already. </b><br /><br />Is it true that Danelle played such a big role in the coup? I believe it were Elaida and Alviarin (the Black Ajah/Mesaana?) who were responsible but some other sisters followed them. <br />In any case, if Danelle is under Mesaana's compulsion it would explain this, too.<br /><br /><b> One last point I'd like to make. The weakest or should I say the least flexible of the forsaken are dead. The point I'm trying to make is that, the remaining forsaken have shown the ability to change with the changes around them. Also likely to be using more than one identity. We've seen it done in the past ( Lanfear ) </b> <br /><br />You can't compare Lanfear with Mesaana. Lanfear used several identities in several places! <br />As gban007 said above, it is very risky to play more than one identity if you live all the time in the same place as Mesaana does (and with people like Aes Sedai or Warders...). <br />Furthermore I don't see that Mesaana would get any advantages by using two identities (e.g. Aes Sedai and servant). On the contrary, it becomes more likely that she makes a mistake.<br />Therefore I say it's very, very unlikely.  <br /><br /><br />Zelion,<br /><br /><b> I just want to point back to an earlier comment.... <br />there are afterall not just Aes Sedai, Accepted, novices and servants in the tower, there are also the &quot;women in hiding&quot; or whatever one should call them. Min posed as one of those afterall....<br />The things supporting this theory is this:<br />The ability to channel can be masked.<br />They have a relativlely free run in the WT, not quite like that of a servant but still good.<br />Alvarin (sp?) has no reason to be familiar with any of those women. </b><br /><br />I think it's possible that Mesaana is a guest. <br />Though I would say a high servant fits better to Mesaana's character. And there are these problems you said. <br />It's not as likely that Alviairn knows the face of a guest, and a servant has maybe some better opportunities in the Tower.<br />But at the moment I don't find any real counter argument. <br />


created: 2003-05-17 16:19:30
subject: <b>One of two things are correct</b>
body:
Either Messanna is not an aes Sedai, or RJ left a very serious logical error in the books.  The theory writer is indeed correct when they state that if Messanna was wearing a disguise in the Tower, i.e. a Dannelle face, then there is absolutely no reason for the shadow and light disguise.  She would just appear to Alviarin as her true self.  Therefore, she must at least some of the time be wearing a &quot;Messanna&quot; face in the tower.  This is indisputable, unless RJ made a logical error which is entirely possible.  Columbo/gaidin, my favorite schizophrenic wotmaniac, I have noticed that during this entire discussion you have not once even attempted to dispute this assertion.  Is it safe to say that you are assuming that RJ has made a logical error??  Or are your ideas so challenged by this that you have instead elected to ignore it???<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I killed Asmodean.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-05-19 19:52:45
subject: <b>Etzel does not deserve such abuse-</b>
body:
As usual Etzel, you have given much thought to your Theory. I agree with the title premise. <br /><br />To Green Gaidin:  Just because you and your buddies have been at this a very long time doesn`t make you correct.  I have joined this site within the last 2 months, {only because I had only then gotten a PC}.  But that does NOT mean that I don`t have as much knowledge of the series as you do.  Just don`t try to show your superiority based on longevity.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2003-05-20 19:46:08
subject: <b>Another vote for Etzel</b>
body:
I second Jofraz&#8217; comments.  I agree with Etzel whole-heartedly.  I&#8217;ve always found the idea of Mesanna being Danelle attractive but not totally convincing, but I&#8217;d never tried to think out why I felt this.  Reading your theory I found myself nodding,, agreeing with each of your points.  I think particularly telling are the point about not being able to partially suppress one&#8217;s strength in the OP, and the point that as a servant Mesaana wouldn&#8217;t be free to attend all the Forsaken&#8217;s gatherings (like Semirhage).<br /><br />I also cannot think who exactly she might be, but the only well-known servant in the Tower is Laras.  The idea that Laras is Mesanna (as some people seem curiously convinced) is fairly explicitly contradicted by RJ:  Siuan had known the woman for years (and mused on her getting ever more arrogant in her position) at the time she gave Egwene &amp; Nynaeve penance in the kitchens at the start of tDR, and the Forsaken only got free a couple of months before that in tGH.<br /><br />Therefore as Mesaana is NOT Laras, the only non Aes Sedai woman that has a speaking part in the Tower, in order for her to be &#8220;obvious&#8221; in RJ parlance, therefore, she would appear to be based elsewhere.  But then how would she know that Alviarin had ordered Elaida to submit herself for to Silviana for a beating?  If she is a servant she can only be Elaida&#8217;s maid (presumably Egwene isn&#8217;t the only one to have one) or cleaner or some such.  Maybe this is what is so &#8220;obvious&#8221; RJ has not felt it necessary to introduce us to her.<br /><br />However if I am wrong and Mesaana is an Aes Sedai in the Tower, I think Silviana (the Mistress of Novices) is at least as convincing as Danelle, as she is the only person apart from Alviarin and Elaida who knew the former had ordered the latter to submit herself for to Silviana for a beating, and no-one else could have been aware of it apart from those three.<br /><br />My own view is that she is hidden somewhere outside the Tower, but spends part of her time masquerading as a servant there, hence looking vaguely familiar.  I have no proof for this, so I hope I won&#8217;t get any long-standing members coming down heavily on me, but it is a hunch consistent with the above.  How to explain the Silviana point? &#8211; maybe Silviana is a DF.<br /><br />Incidentally, as a suggestion to the people that brought this issue up, I think Mesaana, Demandred and Semirhage (and probably the other Forsaken, at least 2 of whom think they should be Nae&#8217;blis) are working against Moridin in a very active way.  I think Moridin is the most likely target for the 50 darkhounds hunting together.  As a pack rarely has more than 10 or so, this pack must belong to a group of people working together.  They are heading north, and presumably Moridin is in the Blight.  And ex-general Demandred is just the type to come up with such an idea.<br />


created: 2003-05-21 05:30:01
subject: <b>re jordanian</b>
body:
that last thought is an interesting one.  I think Moridin though would be able to deal with even 50 of them.  Go Ishy/Moridin!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Moridin/Ishamael's spiritual advisor.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-green.gif" border="0" /> Jedi Knight <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-green.gif" border="0" /><br />Proud Warder to Tatayana and Lanfear81.<br />In love with a beautiful English lady.<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-05-21 20:11:11
subject: <b>Comprhension problems?????</b>
body:
If you would take the time to read my comments YOU 'D notice that I suggested Mesaana is using more than one Identity.  Does that help you with your logical problem????  <br /><br />Etzel does a nice job with this theory but in the end comes up empty handed.  Apparently we haven't seen Mesaana in disguise???   <br /><br />Mesaana using the identity of a Brown ( Danelle ) that nobody knows some of the time is plausible.  Why does Mesaana have to be tied to one alias?<br /><br />Why is Etzel so special.  We can challenge everbody else's theories.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2003-05-21 23:09:24
subject: <b>Sigh. It's bleeding heart central here, isn't it?</b>
body:
Okay, let's clear this up once and for all. <br /><br />1) Columbo and I are different people, though we know each other IRL and therefore can talk about the series at will. Hence, we have similar opinions, but are not the same person. Anyone who frequents the WoT board will remember that post.<br /><br />2) Around here, people have to earn their stripes. Not fair? Not kind and warm and cuddly and snuggly? If you want that crap, head on over to barneythepurpledinosaur.com, because you're not going to get that treatment from me, just as I don't expect it from you. This has become somewhat of a hardhitting forum over the last couple of years, so bring your A game of don't come at all. It's always funny to see people mouth off about comments not being kind, but then have zero to say about what the harsh comment said. <br /><br />3) Let me outline a GREAT theory that was previously discussed in detail (forgive me please, author, I don't remember who you are). Since they became Forsaken, Demandred, Messana, and Semirhage have been allied, and we know as much from their thoughts and comments. We also know that Demandred is the leader (if one can say that there is a leader) of this trio. Demandred has a bit of an inferiority complex. He HATES being second place, hence his hatred of LTT and his resentment of Ishy as the leader and now Moridin as Nae'Blis. Although we don't see his PoV until LoC, we can safely say that Demandred has been working against the established DF plans in order to complete his own, and, later, the DO's direct orders, which conflict with what the others are doing (Sammael's comments). What does this have to do with Messana or this theory, you ask? Don't worry, it's coming.<br /><br />So, now we have some circumstantial evidence that Demandred is playing a hand with the Whitecloaks. It is not a sure thing, but troop movements west across Altara, Niall dying when no one other than Bawler could know his plans (other than, perhaps, someone who could use the power to lift the seals on his documents and is high enough in the WC order to be able to decode. Perhaps compulsion on a messanger?), Valda being lucky enough to get most of his force off of the field in a battle with the SC, etc. Anyway, this is not a theory about Dem in the WC, but it is generally accepted that he has something to do with their actions. So, meanwhile, Semirhage, as Anath (please tell me that everyone believes this by now!?), is getting the SC to head east like lightning. Now, most of the western nations have armies in disarray. The real powers lie in the east: Andor, Illian, Tear, and Cairhein (the SC apparently don't want to cross north of the Mountians of Mist). So, just south of the MoM, there are no armies able to withstand the SC, except or the WC. In their full power, they have some of the best commanders and some of the most disciplined and trained troops alive. If any non channeling army had a chance, it was the WC. But what happens? The SC launch a surprise attack, knowing EXACTLY where to land, when, and where to strike. <br /><br />So, it would certianly seem plausible that Dem could have sold out the WC to Sem and the SC, destroying them, and bringing chaos to the area. Now, one might say that that has nothing to do with Messana, but don't forget Egwene's dream: the raven flying by the tower, right? The SC are headed for the WT to collar the AS, and it would seem that Dem, Sem, and Mes are working together to make it as easy as possible. After all, if the AS are enslaved, who will head up the forces in the next Trolloc War? The Asha'man? Not with Dreadlord Taim teaching all of them. The world will be helpless, and the DO will win. <br /><br />So, that must mean that there is someone in the WT messing around with plans. Messana, obviously, but I would like to hear an explination on how a servant would be able to change the strength of the Tower. As Danelle, she hired too many guards. She backed Eladia in spending on the new palace. She backed Eladia on Siuan's downfall, and Siuan herself remarks on Danelle's sharp eyes when they come to dispose of her. A meek brown with no friends is not the kind of person who is invited to (basically) a hanging. Whether or not Messana is Danelle, she HAS to be an AS. If you think that a scullery maid can bring about the downfall of the Tower, well, I'll just say that I disagree. <br /><br />4) Her non-ageless face. Well, Etzel, you use this to say that she cannot be Danelle. Okay, maybe not, but how often does Alviarin mention Danelle? Does she even know who she is? That familliar face COULD be Danelle's minus the ageless look. I'll ask you all to remember that not ONE of the AS in the Salidar AS recognized Siuan or Leane after their ageless looks were gone. Why, then, is it so hard to believe that Messana plus an ageless look equals Danelle, or another AS? I know that this is not rock solid, but I would also like to point out that this theory goes precisely nowhere. <br /><br />5) The ablility to hide strength in the Power. Homework check time. Men cannot sense others' strength unless the other is holding the Power to their limit. I point you to the case of Rand al'Thor vs. Mazrim Taim. Rand thinks that Taim might not be holding as much as he could when Rand tested him. You don't address the fact that men and women have to be tried seperately, and therefore your examples of Dashiva are useless. I just thought I would refute them for fun.<br /><br />As for women, I have to be brutally honest with you all: I don't remember if they can hide their strength or not. I really don't. It's been awhile, you see, so I'll have to leave that up to someone else. What I DO remember is that women can hide it completely. If they can do that, why could they not marginalize their power? Another discussion entirely.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2003-05-22 04:34:42
subject: <b>my reply</b>
body:
Thanks jofraz and Jordanian!<br /><br /><br />To Columbo,<br /><br /><b> If you would take the time to read my comments YOU 'D notice that I suggested Mesaana is using more than one Identity. Does that help you with your logical problem???? </b><br /><br />You admit that Mesaana is (at least also) a servant, right?<br />But really, why should Mesaana use another identity (Aes Sedai) then? <br />Imagine you were Mesaana in the WT. It makes no sense that after you managed to play one identity (a servant) you start to play another, probably side-by-side. It's too difficult. <br />Or do you think since the beginning Mesaana was two persons? Why?<br />Not very likely. <br /> <br /><br /><b> Etzel does a nice job with this theory but in the end comes up empty handed. Apparently we haven't seen Mesaana in disguise??? </b><br /><br />Thanks. But what shall we do? I mean, if RJ gives us the hints that Mesaana is not an Aes Sedai we can't just ignore it. <br />The theory showed that Mesaana is not an Aes Sedai. That is something new.  <br /><br /><b> Mesaana using the identity of a Brown ( Danelle ) that nobody knows some of the time is plausible. Why does Mesaana have to be tied to one alias? </b><br /><br />That's not right. People (Siuan, Elaida, Alviarin!) know Danelle (her face, her dreamyness etc.); she has just no friends. <br /><br />The other question is answered above.<br /><br /><b> Why is Etzel so special. <br />We can challenge everbody else's theories. </b> <br /><br />Hmm, you sound a bit desperate... <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br />To GG,<br /><br /><b> 3) Let me outline a GREAT theory that was previously discussed in detail (forgive me please, author, I don't remember who you are). Since they became Forsaken, Demandred, Messana, and Semirhage have been allied, and we know as much from their thoughts and comments. We also know that Demandred is the leader (if one can say that there is a leader) of this trio. Demandred has a bit of an inferiority complex. He HATES being second place, hence his hatred of LTT and his resentment of Ishy as the leader and now Moridin as Nae'Blis. Although we don't see his PoV until LoC, we can safely say that Demandred has been working against the established DF plans in order to complete his own, and, later, the DO's direct orders, which conflict with what the others are doing (Sammael's comments). What does this have to do with Messana or this theory, you ask? Don't worry, it's coming. </b><br /><br />Ah, finally to the WoT! <br />All this is interesting and fine (I really want to read this theory, do you know the name?) but it has nothing to do with Mesaana's identitiy in the WT. <br /><br /><b> So, now we have some circumstantial evidence that Demandred is playing a hand with the Whitecloaks. It is not a sure thing, but troop movements west across Altara, Niall dying when no one other than Bawler could know his plans (other than, perhaps, someone who could use the power to lift the seals on his documents and is high enough in the WC order to be able to decode. Perhaps compulsion on a messanger?), Valda being lucky enough to get most of his force off of the field in a battle with the SC, etc. Anyway, this is not a theory about Dem in the WC, but it is generally accepted that he has something to do with their actions. So, meanwhile, Semirhage, as Anath (please tell me that everyone believes this by now!?), is getting the SC to head east like lightning. Now, most of the western nations have armies in disarray. The real powers lie in the east: Andor, Illian, Tear, and Cairhein (the SC apparently don't want to cross north of the Mountians of Mist). So, just south of the MoM, there are no armies able to withstand the SC, except or the WC. In their full power, they have some of the best commanders and some of the most disciplined and trained troops alive. If any non channeling army had a chance, it was the WC. But what happens? The SC launch a surprise attack, knowing EXACTLY where to land, when, and where to strike. </b><br /><br />Still nothing about Mesaana's identity...<br /><br /><b> So, it would certianly seem plausible that Dem could have sold out the WC to Sem and the SC, destroying them, and bringing chaos to the area. Now, one might say that that has nothing to do with Messana, but don't forget Egwene's dream: the raven flying by the tower, right? The SC are headed for the WT to collar the AS, and it would seem that Dem, Sem, and Mes are working together to make it as easy as possible. After all, if the AS are enslaved, who will head up the forces in the next Trolloc War? The Asha'man? Not with Dreadlord Taim teaching all of them. The world will be helpless, and the DO will win. </b> <br /><br />Good, we maybe know the plan though I don't agree with everything.<br /><br /><b> So, that must mean that there is someone in the WT messing around with plans. Messana, obviously, but I would like to hear an explination on how a servant would be able to change the strength of the Tower. As Danelle, she hired too many guards. She backed Eladia in spending on the new palace. She backed Eladia on Siuan's downfall, and Siuan herself remarks on Danelle's sharp eyes when they come to dispose of her. A meek brown with no friends is not the kind of person who is invited to (basically) a hanging. </b><br /><br />Finally a bit about Mesaana's identity. As I pointed out above and in the theory it could be explained with Danelle under compulsion. <br /><br /><b> Whether or not Messana is Danelle, she HAS to be an AS. If you think that a scullery maid can bring about the downfall of the Tower, well, I'll just say that I disagree. </b><br /><br />That's funny. Now you say Mesaana must only be an Aes Sedai not especially Danelle. That means you can also think of other explainations of Danelle's behaviour. <br /><br />You say that Mesaana can't be a servant (btw, I say she is probably a secretary and surly <i> not </i> &quot;a scullery maid&quot; ) because only an Aes Sedai can bring about the downfall of the WT. Sorry, but that's just nonsense. <br />I pointed out that Mesaana doesn't need a high rank if she has the power. And she has the power about Alviarin, Elaida (the leader of the WT after all) and maybe Danelle or another Aes Sedai under her compulsion. <br />Besides we know other Forsaken who are/were servants and manipulated nevertheless. <br /><br /><br /><b> 4) Her non-ageless face. Well, Etzel, you use this to say that she cannot be Danelle. Okay, maybe not, but how often does Alviarin mention Danelle? Does she even know who she is? That familliar face COULD be Danelle's minus the ageless look. I'll ask you all to remember that not ONE of the AS in the Salidar AS recognized Siuan or Leane after their ageless looks were gone. Why, then, is it so hard to believe that Messana plus an ageless look equals Danelle, or another AS? I know that this is not rock solid, but I would also like to point out that this theory goes precisely nowhere. </b> <br /><br />Yes, Alviarin knows Danelle's face ,and when she sees this face the knows the name of the woman.<br /><br />It can't be that Mesaana's face plus the ageless look equals Danelle or another Aes Sedai because it would mean that Mesaana's real face and the Aes Sedai face she is playing without the ageless look are the same. <br />The two persons would be twins.<br /><br />It's especially unbelievable that Mesaana had the luck that she looks like Danelle who is an Aes Sedai without friends and in the Brown Ajah which fits with Mesaana's plan and character.<br />That would probably mean that Mesaana is ta'veren. <br />She came to the WT and found by chance an Aes Sedai who looks like her when she has the ageless look (besides, how could she know this if you can't recognize the same person with and without the ageless look, as you pointed out?), and if you say she is Danelle, who has no friends and is in the teacher Ajah which Mesaana had apparently choosed, too.<br /><br />I think RJ is better than to write something like this...<br /><br />A solution is like Columbo to say, Mesaana has several identities (and Alviarin saw the face of her servant identity) but that is highly unlikely as I showed above. And you seem to think that is wrong, too.<br /><br /><b> 5) The ablility to hide strength in the Power. Homework check time. Men cannot sense others' strength unless the other is holding the Power to their limit. I point you to the case of Rand al'Thor vs. Mazrim Taim. Rand thinks that Taim might not be holding as much as he could when Rand tested him. You don't address the fact that men and women have to be tried seperately, and therefore your examples of Dashiva are useless. I just thought I would refute them for fun.<br /><br />As for women, I have to be brutally honest with you all: I don't remember if they can hide their strength or not. I really don't. It's been awhile, you see, so I'll have to leave that up to someone else. What I DO remember is that women can hide it completely. If they can do that, why could they not marginalize their power? Another discussion entirely. </b><br /><br />Yes, but I think it's at least difficult to hide your real strength. But we don't have enough informations.


created: 2003-05-22 10:53:30
subject: <b>Let me go.....</b>
body:
Dear Etzel,<br /><br />But really, why should Mesaana use another identity (Aes Sedai) then? <br /><br />Maybe you'd like to have another shot at your own question before I answer it?????<br /><br />Thanks. But what shall we do? I mean, if RJ gives us the hints that Mesaana is not an Aes Sedai we can't just ignore it. <br />The theory showed that Mesaana is not an Aes Sedai. That is something new. <br /><br />10 books, changes along the way.  RJ has allowed for this in the past.  <br /><br />That's not right. People (Siuan, Elaida, Alviarin!) know Danelle (her face, her dreamyness etc.); she has just no friends. <br /><br />They don't know Danelle.  In Suin's case she new of her.  Suin says at one point, &quot; those eyes aren't dreamy now&quot;  <br /><br />Hmm, you sound a bit desperate... <br /><br />Never desperate my dear Etzel....<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2003-05-22 11:44:01
subject: <b>Hmm</b>
body:
Don't understand everything you wanted to say, Columbo, but that is probably my fault...<br /><br /><b> Maybe you'd like to have another shot at your own question before I answer it????? </b><br /><br />You should answer this question. <br />After all, it's your opinion that Mesaana has several identities in the WT!<br /><br /><b> 10 books, changes along the way. RJ has allowed for this in the past. </b><br /><br />Do you mean that RJ wanted Mesaana to be Danelle but then decided in another way? I had these feeling with Taim and Demandred... <br />But if you think that, how can you still say that Mesaana is Danelle? <br /><br /><b> They don't know Danelle. In Suin's case she new of her. Suin says at one point, &quot; those eyes aren't dreamy now&quot; </b> <br /><br />Siuan knows her, yes. <br />But also Alviarin and Elaida. <br />Read ACoS, prologue, Alviarin's POV and Elaida's in TFoH, prologue! <br />At least they know Danelle well enough to remember the name to her face and they know her dreamy attribut.<br />Besides, since Danelle was a member of Elaida's coup they surly have talked several times with her.<br /><br /><br /><b> Never desperate my dear Etzel.... </b><br /><br />Good to hear that! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />


created: 2003-05-22 18:06:26
subject: <b>The juices are flowing....</b>
body:
Etzel:<br /><b> <br />All this is interesting and fine (I really want to read this theory, do you know the name?) but it has nothing to do with Mesaana's identitiy in the WT.<br /><br />Still nothing about Mesaana's identity... </b><br /><br />Okay, I have to plead ignorance here. Did you not read the entire thing first before responding? Or did you not see how that all tied in together?<br /><br /><b>Finally a bit about Mesaana's identity. As I pointed out above and in the theory it could be explained with Danelle under compulsion. </b><br /><br />It could also mean that she is a high up DF taking orders from Messana. See, there's no proof for that, either! Ideas are just ideas unless there's proof behind them, and your Danelle under compulsion holds no water.<br /><br /><b>That's funny. Now you say Mesaana must only be an Aes Sedai not especially Danelle. That means you can also think of other explainations of Danelle's behaviour. <br /><br />You say that Mesaana can't be a servant (btw, I say she is probably a secretary and surly not &quot;a scullery maid&quot; ) because only an Aes Sedai can bring about the downfall of the WT. Sorry, but that's just nonsense. <br />I pointed out that Mesaana doesn't need a high rank if she has the power. And she has the power about Alviarin, Elaida (the leader of the WT after all) and maybe Danelle or another Aes Sedai under her compulsion. <br />Besides we know other Forsaken who are/were servants and manipulated nevertheless. </b><br /><br />If you don't have a copy of the Guide yet, I suggest you go and buy it. It tells us that Messana is a teacher, and that she is somewhat obsessed with it. If Mes. is not Danelle, then the best theory I've heard is that she is the new Mistress of Novices. I can't vouch for it, but the idea is very interesting. See, that's the problem with people who just pick stuff out of the air and spout it as theory: you have to take into consideration the CHARACTER. Why was Taimandred bunk from the start? Because Demandred would rather DIE than be under LTT again. It just isn't his character. It isn't Messana's character to take orders from and AS and be her secretary, or to be a cook, or a miad. She can't TEACH anything like that. All AS get to teach novices at some point, and at least she could do what she loved, as all Forsaken do. Rahvin womanized, Sammael wanted war against LTT, Ishy/Moridin wants to be behind the scenes, Lanfear wanted Rand, etc. Messana is a teacher, and therefore I think we can rule out the servant theory. Unless, of course, you want to ignore what RJ has told us about her for the last decade or so.<br /><br />Also, could you refresh my memory as to which Forsaken was a servant for an extended period of time?<br /><br /><b>Yes, Alviarin knows Danelle's face ,and when she sees this face the knows the name of the woman.</b> <br /><br />Sorry, can you say that again?<br /><br /><b>It can't be that Mesaana's face plus the ageless look equals Danelle or another Aes Sedai because it would mean that Mesaana's real face and the Aes Sedai face she is playing without the ageless look are the same. <br />The two persons would be twins.</b><br /><br />Can you say THAT again? I'm having problems understanding what you're saying, as you apparently are having trouble grasping my meanings. What I was saying is this: the ageless look is like a mask. Without it, the person would look COMPLETELY different (Siuan, Leane). Besides, as I said before, not all AS know each other, so how hard would it be to create a new identity there? A brown who does nothing but study in the vaults all day?<br /><br /><b>It's especially unbelievable that Mesaana had the luck that she looks like Danelle who is an Aes Sedai without friends and in the Brown Ajah which fits with Mesaana's plan and character.<br />That would probably mean that Mesaana is ta'veren. <br />She came to the WT and found by chance an Aes Sedai who looks like her when she has the ageless look (besides, how could she know this if you can't recognize the same person with and without the ageless look, as you pointed out?), and if you say she is Danelle, who has no friends and is in the teacher Ajah which Mesaana had apparently choosed, too.</b><br /><br />Read above about similar looks, and think on the fact that Messana WOULD choose Brown. She HAS to be a teacher! She did not have to kill Danelle! Even if she did, the MoM for Danelle's face would be just as easy as an ageless look, right? Don't forget that Forsaken know how to invert weaves. <br /><br /><b>Yes, but I think it's at least difficult to hide your real strength. But we don't have enough informations.</b> <br /><br />Please all note the &quot;I think&quot;. All we know is that you can completely mask your ability to channel. ON THE BASIS OF THAT INFORMATION, we can say that, in all likelyhood, one can mask some of their power.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2003-05-22 18:19:20
subject: <b>re green gaidan</b>
body:
I believe that Etzel was trying to say that:<br />Siuan with the ageless look looks completely different to what she does without it, but, she could not have reached that particular ageless look without her base aged looks that are built upon.  So that if two AS look the same with the ageless look, they would both look the same without it, not that the ageless and aged face look the same.  So that if Mesaana's face with the ageless look looks like Danelle, then Mesanna's face without it would look like Danelle's face without it.  <br />Also, as is mentioned in Etzels reply to Columbo, Alvairin does know Danelle.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Moridin/Ishamael's spiritual advisor.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-green.gif" border="0" /> Jedi Knight <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-green.gif" border="0" /><br />Proud Warder to Tatayana and Lanfear81.<br />In love with a beautiful English lady.<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-05-22 20:09:07
subject: <b>Re: gban007</b>
body:
<b>I believe that Etzel was trying to say that:<br />Siuan with the ageless look looks completely different to what she does without it, but, she could not have reached that particular ageless look without her base aged looks that are built upon. So that if two AS look the same with the ageless look, they would both look the same without it, not that the ageless and aged face look the same. So that if Mesaana's face with the ageless look looks like Danelle, then Mesanna's face without it would look like Danelle's face without it. <br />Also, as is mentioned in Etzels reply to Columbo, Alvairin does know Danelle.</b><br /><br />My comments were sayingt that she would obviously be using a subtle MoM (it works best that way) to achieve disguise, right? Now, RJ dropping the hint that the face was familliar to her somehow does not lend me to believe that she is a secretary that we haven't seen ever. It just isn't his style. For all of you who say that that isn't proof enough, well, I will disagree with you: style is everything. There is a certian style that RJ uses when dropping hints, and a perceptive reader can pick up on it during a second (or eighth) read of the series. If you don't believe me, ask Columbo. Ask Matrimony Cauthon, or Dodge, or blaphomet23. He drops into hint mode, and he would NOT introduce us to this familliar face through Alviarin's eyes and then have her as a secretary. It just isn't going to happen. <br /><br />She could have subtly changed her face to match that of Danelle's. Why, you say? Why would she not just use her normal face? No one else would know it anyway? Because she could not pose as a full AS without the ageless look. Simple, really.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2003-05-23 03:37:16
subject: <b>GG</b>
body:
<b> Okay, I have to plead ignorance here. Did you not read the entire thing first before responding? Or did you not see how that all tied in together? </b><br /><br />Your long explaiantion was not needed because we know that Mesaana is in the WT. We argue only who she is. <br />You say that she could only manipulate the WT if she is an Aes Sedai. I say that is wrong. <br />At least it's as likely that she manipulates the Aes Sedai as a servant through her proxies; in my view it's easier for her to hide as a servant (not in the view of the Aes Sedai).<br /><br /><b> It could also mean that she is a high up DF taking orders from Messana. See, there's no proof for that, either! Ideas are just ideas unless there's proof behind them, and your Danelle under compulsion holds no water. </b><br /><br />I say the Danelle is Mesaana theory holds no water considering especially CoT. <br />If Danelle behaves nevertheless strange, there must be another explaination (compulsion, DF etc.). <br /><br /><b> If you don't have a copy of the Guide yet, I suggest you go and buy it. It tells us that Messana is a teacher, and that she is somewhat obsessed with it. If Mes. is not Danelle, then the best theory I've heard is that she is the new Mistress of Novices. I can't vouch for it, but the idea is very interesting. See, that's the problem with people who just pick stuff out of the air and spout it as theory: you have to take into consideration the CHARACTER. Why was Taimandred bunk from the start? Because Demandred would rather DIE than be under LTT again. It just isn't his character. It isn't Messana's character to take orders from and AS and be her secretary, or to be a cook, or a miad. She can't TEACH anything like that. All AS get to teach novices at some point, and at least she could do what she loved, as all Forsaken do. Rahvin womanized, Sammael wanted war against LTT, Ishy/Moridin wants to be behind the scenes, Lanfear wanted Rand, etc. Messana is a teacher, and therefore I think we can rule out the servant theory. Unless, of course, you want to ignore what RJ has told us about her for the last decade or so. </b><br /><br />My theory fits with Mesaana's character! We know that she don't care about the apearance of power but wants the real power. That means she has no problems to manipulate from the background. <br />Furthermore we know she is not a gambler. To play an Aes Sedai under many, many other Aes Sedai is at least difficult. You need to know everything about the WT and Aes Sedai' customs etc. <br />It's especially difficult if you are a teacher and must teach other people something you can't know yet very good. How can Mesaana learned everything and keep it in her mind?  <br />And really, do you think Mesaana stands the whole day in the classroom and teaches novices?<br />Finally, note that Mesaana teaches Alviarin some things and tells her from the AoL (in CoT, &quot;A mark&quot; )! <br />Maybe Alviarin is the compensation since Mesaana can't teach other people in the WT? <br /><br /><b> Also, could you refresh my memory as to which Forsaken was a servant for an extended period of time? </b><br /><br />Sure. <br />Semirhage is the servant of Tuon (I believe you agree that she is Anath). <br />Aran'gar is the servant/secretary of Delana. <br />Moghedien was disguised as a servant woman until Nynaeve captured her.  <br />Osan'gar was as his body-guard something like a servant for Rand.<br /><br /><b> Can you say THAT again? I'm having problems understanding what you're saying, as you apparently are having trouble grasping my meanings. What I was saying is this: the ageless look is like a mask. Without it, the person would look COMPLETELY different (Siuan, Leane). Besides, as I said before, not all AS know each other, so how hard would it be to create a new identity there? A brown who does nothing but study in the vaults all day? </b><br /><br />Yeah, ok, gban007 is right with his explainations. <br />Alviarin knows Danelle's face and her name. <br />If you are a normal female channeler, you have a normal face. Then you become an Aes Sedai and get the ageless look which changes your face. If you lose the ageless look you have your normal face again. <br /><br />Ok, Mesaana has a normal face, too. If she gives this face the ageless look and is then similiar to Danelle's Aes Sedai face also Danelle's real face must be similiar to Mesaana's real face. That means they were twins, and that can't be.<br /><br />To create a new Aes Sedai identity is impossible in two years (or how long Mesaana is free?). <br />Because you have some years the education (Novices, Accepted) and a few Aes Sedai must know you from then.<br /><br /><b> Read above about similar looks, and think on the fact that Messana WOULD choose Brown. She HAS to be a teacher! She did not have to kill Danelle! Even if she did, the MoM for Danelle's face would be just as easy as an ageless look, right? Don't forget that Forsaken know how to invert weaves. </b><br /><br />As I said, that would mean Mesaana has not only a twin in Danelle, but they are also similiar in their interests. Very unlikely. <br />And Mesaana teaches Alviarin.<br /><br />


created: 2003-05-23 11:55:20
subject: <b>The true reason for this theory...</b>
body:
Many readers may have been wondering how Columbo/Green Gaidin is so certain that Mesaana is really Danelle. <br />    This is easily answered.<br />He knows because he is really Mesaana's long-term ally:<br />                  Demandred!<br /> Realising the futility of the DO's cause, he escaped the wholly imaginary WoTland using a Portal stone, and is now plotting to take over this world. <br />  In fact, there is no reason at all why Demandred should not also be Etzel; it is not difficult to hold down two (non-AS) identities. This all means that this discussion board is part of a fiendish plot to take over the world!<br />                Beware!<br />PS. I know this because I am really Moridin. Don't think you can get away from me, Demandred!


created: 2003-05-23 15:06:54
subject: <b>Damn it</b>
body:
He's on to me... us... whatever <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2003-05-24 21:05:07
subject: <b>I can't understand what you're saying.</b>
body:
Etzel,<br /><br />I MUST be retarded, because I just don't see how your logic works. See, Mesaana would not put and ACTUAL ageless face on, she would use a MoM to do it. Therefore, since she can use that in ANY WAY SHE WANTS, she would NOT have to be Danelle's twin. That's as simple as I can make it, man.<br /><br /><b>Your long explaiantion was not needed because we know that Mesaana is in the WT. We argue only who she is. <br />You say that she could only manipulate the WT if she is an Aes Sedai. I say that is wrong. <br />At least it's as likely that she manipulates the Aes Sedai as a servant through her proxies; in my view it's easier for her to hide as a servant (not in the view of the Aes Sedai).</b><br /><br />Well, I suppose that the ability to bring the White Tower down COULD come from a servant, though it makes things infinetely more complicated for her. She has a direct hand to deal with matters as an AS, and yet she would have to leave the most intricate parts of her plan to proxies, whom, I ask you to remember, the forsaken consider savages and sub-human compared to the AoL peoples. It's like asking a dog to read a speech. <br /><br /><b>I say the Danelle is Mesaana theory holds no water considering especially CoT. <br />If Danelle behaves nevertheless strange, there must be another explaination (compulsion, DF etc.). </b><br /><br />Okay, well, we have a saying concerning opinions around here... but I'm too nice of a guy to say it <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />The only proof that you can provide is at worst speculation, and at best ambiguous. There are exactly zero solid conclusions drawn from this theory, and logic dictates that the opposing view is easier to accept and contains less crippling varaibles set to ruin her plans.<br /><br /><b>My theory fits with Mesaana's character! We know that she don't care about the apearance of power but wants the real power. That means she has no problems to manipulate from the background. <br />Furthermore we know she is not a gambler. To play an Aes Sedai under many, many other Aes Sedai is at least difficult. You need to know everything about the WT and Aes Sedai' customs etc. <br />It's especially difficult if you are a teacher and must teach other people something you can't know yet very good. How can Mesaana learned everything and keep it in her mind? <br />And really, do you think Mesaana stands the whole day in the classroom and teaches novices?<br />Finally, note that Mesaana teaches Alviarin some things and tells her from the AoL (in CoT, &quot;A mark&quot; )! <br />Maybe Alviarin is the compensation since Mesaana can't teach other people in the WT? </b><br /><br />Man, someone has their forsaken mixed up. That's Moggy you're thinking of, not Mes. If I'm mistaken, please correct me with a quote. What it says in the guide is that Mes. was a teacher who was pissed off because she was not respected: i.e. she had not real power. Yeah, that sounds like someone who would want to put themselves in a secretary disguise <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> Do I think that Mes. could have learned the ways of the AS quickly enough to become one? Heck yes. Aginor learned the language and was only out for a month at best. Rahvin learned the Andorian court manners to a tee, Be'lal learned how to be a High Lord in Tear, even Semi got into the SEANCHAN,who's culture is staggeringly different than the AoL culture, and judging by the timeline of Tuon's former truthsayer's death, that was RIGHT after the breaking. Does Mes. teach all day? Pretty much, yes. That is what she loves to do. Bringing down the Tower is not something that you can do with corner speeches. <br /><br /><b>Semirhage is the servant of Tuon (I believe you agree that she is Anath). <br />Aran'gar is the servant/secretary of Delana. <br />Moghedien was disguised as a servant woman until Nynaeve captured her. <br />Osan'gar was as his body-guard something like a servant for Rand.</b><br /><br />If you think that a truthsayer is a servant.. well, I can't help you. In name, she is, but in practice, her JOB is to control Tuon and tel her what she should do. That is not a servant.<br /><br />Aran'gar does not write at all for Delana. She can channel as much as he/she wants, do whatever she wants, and no one can catch her. She is NOT a servant. Being a servant means actual work.<br /><br />Moggy posed as a servant for how long? two days?<br />Besides, that fits HER character, not Mes's. Other than Moggy, the Forsaken are all arrogant and pompous.<br /><br />Dashiva's job was to open a gateway when Rand asked him to. Wow. I'll bet he wore an apron.<br /><br /><b>Yeah, ok, gban007 is right with his explainations. <br />Alviarin knows Danelle's face and her name. <br />If you are a normal female channeler, you have a normal face. Then you become an Aes Sedai and get the ageless look which changes your face. If you lose the ageless look you have your normal face again. <br /><br />Ok, Mesaana has a normal face, too. If she gives this face the ageless look and is then similiar to Danelle's Aes Sedai face also Danelle's real face must be similiar to Mesaana's real face. That means they were twins, and that can't be.<br /><br />To create a new Aes Sedai identity is impossible in two years (or how long Mesaana is free?). <br />Because you have some years the education (Novices, Accepted) and a few Aes Sedai must know you from then.</b><br /><br />Read the top. You don't seem to grasp my point. They do NOT have to be twins. The MoM can make her face whatever she wants. All she has to do is look vaguely like Danelle. I believe the descriptions are similar.<br /><br /><b>As I said, that would mean Mesaana has not only a twin in Danelle, but they are also similiar in their interests. Very unlikely. <br />And Mesaana teaches Alviarin.</b><br /><br />Really now, why would they have to be similar in thier intrests. I hope that you will agree that Danelle's behaviour has changed drastically over the last couple of years. Oh, and one lesson every couple of months that Alviarin meets with Mes. is not enough to satisfy a dominant trait of hers.<br /><br />Also, Danelle is known as dreamy. From the guide, page 67: &quot;A woman of average height and appearance, Saine Tarasind  was hardheaded, practical, and intelligent, though <b><i>often taken as dreamy</i></b> because of her introspection.&quot;<br /><br />Now, you seem to think that I'm saying that Mes. is definetely Danelle. While I certianly think that it is likely, I don't fully believe it. What I DO believe is that Mes. is posing as an AS, not a servant, and that is why this theory gets my thumbs down.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2003-05-25 04:07:14
subject:
<b>After this answer you will understand me! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /> (I hope....)</b>

body:
<b> I MUST be retarded, because I just don't see how your logic works. See, Mesaana would not put and ACTUAL ageless face on, she would use a MoM to do it. Therefore, since she can use that in ANY WAY SHE WANTS, she would NOT have to be Danelle's twin. That's as simple as I can make it, man. </b><br /><br />Of course Mesaana must use a MoM if she is disguised as Danelle and that's the problem. <br />Because in CoT, when SH appears, Mesaana loses her mask, shows her true face and this is familiar to Alviarin.<br />That means Alviarin can figure out who Mesaana is by this face.<br /><br />How can it be, that Mesaana uses a MoM to get the ageless look and probably changes her face so that she looks like Danelle (otherwise they would be twins), but nevertheless her true face is familiar to Alviarin? <br />Actually you said in your comment &quot;The juices are flowing...&quot; (<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" />) that <b> &quot;the ageless look is like a mask. Without it, the person would look COMPLETELY different (Siuan, Leane).&quot; </b><br /><br />Or, do you think that Messana walked some time through the WT and searched for an Aes Sedai who looks like her when Mesaana has the ageless look and alters her face a bit (and surpize, surprize she found a Brown Aes Sedai with no friends...)? <br />That can't be, especially if we say that person with and without the ageless look, appear completely different. Mesaana could not know that she would look like her with the mask.  <br /><br />Hope you understand it. I fear not...<br /><br /><b> Well, I suppose that the ability to bring the White Tower down COULD come from a servant, though it makes things infinetely more complicated for her. She has a direct hand to deal with matters as an AS, and yet she would have to leave the most intricate parts of her plan to proxies, whom, I ask you to remember, the forsaken consider savages and sub-human compared to the AoL peoples. It's like asking a dog to read a speech. </b><br /><br />Mesaana has the control of Alviarin who controls Elaida. <br />So Mesaana controls the WT. <br />The advantage to be a servant is that the other Aes Sedai not notice you like a Sister. You can't become a part of their observations or plans and therefore your life is easier. <br />Especially if you are a Forsaken and must fear that someone could detect you. Note how careful Mesaana is in her meetings with Alviarin.<br />That the Forsaken think the Aes Sedai are untrained children and the normal people savages don't stop them from manipulating. On the contrary, it's the reason why they have no scruple to use them as proxies. <br /><br /><b> Okay, well, we have a saying concerning opinions around here... but I'm too nice of a guy to say it <br /><br />The only proof that you can provide is at worst speculation, and at best ambiguous. There are exactly zero solid conclusions drawn from this theory, and logic dictates that the opposing view is easier to accept and contains less crippling varaibles set to ruin her plans. </b><br /><br />Note that this theory doesn't want to prove that Danelle is a Darkfriend or something else but that Mesaana can't be an Aes Sedai! There are proofs as I pointed out.<br /><br /><b> Man, someone has their forsaken mixed up. That's Moggy you're thinking of, not Mes. If I'm mistaken, please correct me with a quote. What it says in the guide is that Mes. was a teacher who was pissed off because she was not respected: i.e. she had not real power. Yeah, that sounds like someone who would want to put themselves in a secretary disguise  Do I think that Mes. could have learned the ways of the AS quickly enough to become one? Heck yes. Aginor learned the language and was only out for a month at best. Rahvin learned the Andorian court manners to a tee, Be'lal learned how to be a High Lord in Tear, even Semi got into the SEANCHAN,who's culture is staggeringly different than the AoL culture, and judging by the timeline of Tuon's former truthsayer's death, that was RIGHT after the breaking. Does Mes. teach all day? Pretty much, yes. That is what she loves to do. Bringing down the Tower is not something that you can do with corner speeches. </b><br /><br />You can find the quotes in the theory.<br />Mesaana must not only learn all Aes Sedai rules but she had to learn everything from Danelle to play her convincing with a few hundred Aes Sedai around.  <br />To take over a real identity and not create a new one is something that no other Forsaken does.<br /><br /><b> If you think that a truthsayer is a servant.. well, I can't help you. In name, she is, but in practice, her JOB is to control Tuon and tel her what she should do. That is not a servant.<br /><br />Aran'gar does not write at all for Delana. She can channel as much as he/she wants, do whatever she wants, and no one can catch her. She is NOT a servant. Being a servant means actual work.<br /><br />Moggy posed as a servant for how long? two days?<br />Besides, that fits HER character, not Mes's. Other than Moggy, the Forsaken are all arrogant and pompous.<br /><br />Dashiva's job was to open a gateway when Rand asked him to. Wow. I'll bet he wore an apron. </b><br /><br />I don't say that Mesaana works in the kitchen or does very much real work. <br />If she is a secretary of an Aes Sedai, her Aes Sedai is probably under compulsion. So like Aran'gar she has not much to do. <br /><br /><b> Read the top. You don't seem to grasp my point. They do NOT have to be twins. The MoM can make her face whatever she wants. All she has to do is look vaguely like Danelle. I believe the descriptions are similar. </b><br /><br />Why should Mesaana only look &quot;vaguely&quot; like Danelle, if she can look exactly like her? But if she looks exactly like Danelle we have the problem with Mesaana's real face which is familiar.<br />Besides, I don't think Mesaana could risk to look only vaguely like Danelle. Someone could notice the difference.<br /><br /><b> Really now, why would they have to be similar in thier intrests. I hope that you will agree that Danelle's behaviour has changed drastically over the last couple of years. Oh, and one lesson every couple of months that Alviarin meets with Mes. is not enough to satisfy a dominant trait of hers.<br /><br />Also, Danelle is known as dreamy. From the guide, page 67: &quot;A woman of average height and appearance, Saine Tarasind was hardheaded, practical, and intelligent, though often taken as dreamy because of her introspection.&quot;<br /><br />Now, you seem to think that I'm saying that Mes. is definetely Danelle. While I certianly think that it is likely, I don't fully believe it. What I DO believe is that Mes. is posing as an AS, not a servant, and that is why this theory gets my thumbs down. </b><br /><br />It's ok that you don't agree with me, though I think it's quite obvious now that Mesaana can't be an Aes Sedai.<br /><br />Anyway, it's good that you point out and defend your opinion. Everyone should do this such enthusiastic!


created: 2003-05-26 13:17:08
subject: <b>Etzel...</b>
body:
You keep making the point that its impossible for Messana over the last two years to learn enough to pose as Aes Sedai.  When in fact its rather easy task.  Aes Sedai are not questioned by anyone other than other Aes Sedai and that rarely.  In Danelle's case, other Aes Sedai have picked up on character changes.<br /><br />eg. She went from one extreme to the next.  First someone who wasn't invovled in current events to someone who is directly involved in current events.<br /><br />You also point out that she controls Alvarin.  What you fail to notice is this hasn't always been the case.<br /><br />Also Messana is vaguely familuar.  This doesn't rule out Aes Sedai as you say.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2003-05-26 17:01:27
subject: <b>Columbo</b>
body:
<b> You keep making the point that its impossible for Messana over the last two years to learn enough to pose as Aes Sedai. When in fact its rather easy task. Aes Sedai are not questioned by anyone other than other Aes Sedai and that rarely. In Danelle's case, other Aes Sedai have picked up on character changes. </b><br /><br />Not only to pose as an Aes Sedai but as Danelle. <br />Mesaana must learn everything about her to play the role. It's just too risky. No Forsaken takes a real identity. <br /><br /><b> eg. She went from one extreme to the next. First someone who wasn't invovled in current events to someone who is directly involved in current events. </b><br /><br />Danelle's behaviour can be explained in other ways as pointed out in comments above.<br /><br /><b> You also point out that she controls Alvarin. What you fail to notice is this hasn't always been the case. </b><br /><br />Well, I suppose Mesaana controls Alviarin since she is in the WT. Why should she start later to control her?<br /><br /><b> Also Messana is vaguely familuar. This doesn't rule out Aes Sedai as you say. </b><br /><br />It does, because Mesaana's real face which must be different from the real face of a Sister, can't be familiar to the ageless face of an Aes Sedai, if we consider that even the same person looks very different with or without the ageless look.<br />Hope this was understandable...


created: 2003-05-27 06:43:57
subject: <b>I think</b>
body:
columbo is saying that mesaana didn't always control Alvarian, after all Ishamael was the first one running that lot around, at beginning of WOT.  Mesaana took over from Ishamael at some point.  <br />Hope that helps<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Moridin/Ishamael's spiritual advisor.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-green.gif" border="0" /> Jedi Knight <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-green.gif" border="0" /><br />Proud Warder to Tatayana and Lanfear81.<br />In love with a beautiful English lady.<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-05-27 15:53:16
subject: <b>This might be amusing...</b>
body:
...if you guys wouldn't be so incredibly thick-headed about it. But obviously you think it's more fun to try to be witty and insult each other than to actually sum up the facts.<br /><br />First, I used http://idealseek.no-ip.com/ to track down every &quot;Mesaana&quot; and &quot;Danelle&quot; in the books prior to CoT. I then checked what was actually said in the chapter in question, and wrote down the information I though relevant here below. Feel free to check yourself.<br /><br />--<br /><br />Danelle is mentioned in:<br />The Shadow Rising, Chapter 47<br />Where Siuan thinks of her as a &quot;young Brown sister&quot; and &quot;too dreamy, even for a Brown&quot; because she employs too many men to repair the library (men used to support Elaida in the fighting). Then Elaida &amp; co. enter, Danelle's &quot;big blue eyes not dreamy at all&quot;. She smirks at Siuan, then helps Joline and others to search the books on Siuan's shelves.<br /><br />The Fires of Heaven, Prologue<br />Danelle is part of Elaida's council, and brings news of the WC's actions.<br /><br />Lord of Chaos, Chapter 7<br />A report from Danelle is found on Elaida's desk in T'a'R mentioning Mattin Stepaneos, Roedran, Alliandre and Tylin's attitudes towards Elaida's claim for Rand. <br /><br />A Crown of Swords, Prologue<br />Alviarin's POV; The only one to ignore her is Danelle. D has no friends even in her own Ajah, D has been shoved aside and doesn't seem aware of it. (A character is mentioned, Norine Dovarna of the White Ajah. As dreamy and friendless as Danelle.)<br /><br />--<br /><br />Mesaana is mentioned in:<br />The World of Robert Jordan's The Wheel of Time, Chapter 5<br />Listed as one of the Forsaken.<br /><br />Chapter 6<br />Mesaana is described as just in her middle years, &quot;a little over three hundred&quot;, of average height and appearance, hardheaded, practical, intelligent, &quot;often taken for being dreamy because of her introspection&quot;, interested in real power, not the appearance of it, an adequate general and a brilliant governor. &quot;Her administration was orderly and efficient&quot; - &quot;atrocities were as well regulated as taxes and garbage collection&quot; She created her own school system and Mesaana's children. She wanted to be a researcher, but was only allowed to teach, so she crossed over to the DO&#8217;s side.<br /><br />Lord of Chaos, Prologue<br />Mesaana is wearing russet silk, stapling dominoes based on her knowledge of the laws of physics. M feels unexplainably uncomfortable in Semi&#8217;s company. M can be cruel when needed. M&#8217;s been to SG and met SH, although he would not speak to her. He freaked her out as well. M shows impatience and unconsciously stands on her toes to somewhat match Semi&#8217;s height. M lectures the others on how impossible it&#8217;s to get their hands on angreal or sa&#8217;angreal. She, atleast will not risk it without any real need. She is no gambler.<br /><br />Chapter 2<br />In M&#8217;s schools &#8220;children and young people were taught the glories of the Dark One, taught to kill their friends who didn't learn well enough or fast enough.&#8221;<br /><br />Chapter 6<br />M was more than irritated that Semi didn&#8217;t show up for the last meeting. M seems sure Rand will soon be caught &#8220;but then she has said the same every time.&#8221; M &amp; Semi are not so sure the missing forsaken are dead.<br /><br />Chapter 23 &amp; Chapter 51: Nothing of import.<br /><br />A Crown of Swords, Prologue<br />&#8220;A tall woman of dark shadow and silver light stood before her. Mesaana.&#8221; In the beginning, Al had left out small bits of conversation, facial expressions or tones, but M knew every time. Al does not feel the OP in M, nor any ability or strength. Al thinks M must be an AS with few or no friends. M taps a finger to her lips. M teaches only on her own conditions and demands Al obey her above any other forsaken. The first lesson is to make a gateway.<br /><br />Chapter 20: Nothing of import.<br /><br />Chapter 25<br />M seems to know a great deal about many things, and her knowledge is as specific as possible in AoL.<br /><br />Chapter 32: Nothing of import.<br /><br />The Path of Daggers, Chapter 25<br />M knows Al ordered El beaten. When shifting M&#8217;s dress Al notices &#8220;Flickers of bronze silk with a thin border of intricately embroidered black scrollwork&#8221; on the hem of the dress. M&#8217;s wearing a slipper. M does no know everything. M orders Al to check the Ajah heads. M regrets El doesn&#8217;t want to enlarge the army.<br /><br />Winter's Heart, Chapter 13<br />M has been &#8220;shy&#8221; of late. M is absent again (from the forsaken&#8217;s meeting). M thinks Cyndane is of this age, as she is weaker than Lanfear was.<br /><br />She's also mentioned in the Glossaries of SR, FoH, LoC, aCoS, PoD, WH and CoT (as one of the surviving Forsaken, if nothing else).<br /><br />--<br /><br />So, the evidence prior to CoT:<br />Pro:<br />1. If M would be an AS, she would suit the Brown (or possibly White) Ajah best. Wanting to be a researcher.<br />2. The reports made by D could be connected to a) the theoretical co-operation between Dem and the WC and b) Sammy ruling Illian.<br />3. D has no friends. (but she isn&#8217;t the only AS without friends)<br />4. D &amp; M might both be mistaken for dreamy.<br />5. D brings the fighting men to bring SS down, M wishes for more troops, M is an adequate general.<br />6. M wears russet/bronze silk, AS often wear their Ajah colours or similar.<br />7. M knowing every nuance missed &#8220;in the beginning&#8221; matches D&#8217;s presence in the councils. M convinced Al she&#8217;d know if Al missed to report something, training Al to be precise, then let D drop away from the obvious power, back into the safety of being a dreamy Brown. <br />8. D was a necessary part of splitting the tower, placing Al in a place where M could manipulate Al to manipulate the Amyrlin/WT. M isn&#8217;t interested in the appearance of power, just the real power.<br />9. Being the scholar she is, M would hardly have any difficulty assuming the role of an AS.<br />10. Being the scholar she is, she&#8217;d very likely want access to the Tower library &amp; other facilities only open for the Brown.<br />11. M is very cautious using the silvery shadow and hiding her ability.<br />12. To pose as an AS, M would not only have to show limited amounts of her strength in the OP. While there&#8217;s no direct proof of this being possible, there are indications of other female channelers doing it. Lanfear&#8217;s act as Else and Granny&#8217;s appearance in front of the Shaido WO&#8217;s come to mind.<br /><br />Con:<br />1. Danelle is young, Mesaana 300.<br />2. More beginner&#8217;s mistakes ought to be noted when M took over from D.<br />3. Why would M have to be absent from the meetings? Is it Semi, or something holding her in the tower?<br />4. We don&#8217;t see D tapping a finger to her lips.<br />5. How did M know Al had El beaten?<br /><br />--<br /><br />Then we have Crossroads of Twilight, and chapter 21:<br /><br />Al thinks M is overcautious, given the time BA have sneaked about in the Tower. Yet the BA have been breached by the very same people M told Al to investigate. For a brilliant governor, M seems to be slipping a lot, not caring to figure out the BA, etc.<br />Btw: Am I the only one to find Al&#8217;s attitude to the ninth depository a bit peculiar? Aren&#8217;t whites supposed to deal with logic, and what&#8217;s more logical than arithmetic? Wonder if M would agree with this attitude&#8230;<br />Now, how did M know what El had told Al in private? Is it public knowledge? Does she have another link to El, or has she been eavesdropping from the start? Is that even possible with the wards and other knowledge of the WT?<br />M is wearing bronze-embroidered green silk. She has blue eyes, &#8220;a tantalizingly familiar woman who looked just short of her middle years&#8221; with &#8220;a voice that tugged the edge of recognition.&#8221;<br />M is being careful as always, ready to kill Al for the off chance that Al might be able to recognise her disguise now that she&#8217;s seen her real face and heard her voice. M licks her lips when nervous.<br /><br />--<br /><br />However, here we have the connection: M&#8217;s blue eyes to match D&#8217;s. M&#8217;s voice is recognised by Al. Al would not remember the voice of any secretary or servant, even had she heard them speak, but she has heard D speak. It&#8217;s also been some time since Al&#8217;s seen Danelle, quite apart from her 1 month-leave, D has been slipping away from the center of power for some time. D is young, M middle-aged, that alone might make them similar but not quite recognisable. The features of the original D would have been blurred by the agelessness, perhaps making them more similar to M&#8217;s than they were from the beginning.<br /><br />Etzel seems to think it highly impropable for M to find someone who matches her looks well enough, as well as suiting her personality and the friendless-factor. As seen above, there were several sisters without friends to choose from, and as Columbo and GG have pointed out, D and M did not have to be mirror images of eachother to begin with. All M really needed was someone reasonably alike in stature and looks (actually not even that, but it makes keeping the MoM easier), and she could manufacture the rest.<br /><br />--<br /><br />I conclude: I see little or no value in the so called evidence called forth by Etzel to show that M is NOT posing as an AS. I admit that it's a possibility, but not one with any considerable amount of evidence backing it up. And while it&#8217;s a possibility, there&#8217;s a much more likely possibility, supported by evidence. Danelle.<br /><br />respectfully<br />/Heiti<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">The only way to convince me is by providing some evidence!</font><p></p>


created: 2003-05-27 17:55:53
subject: <b>Replies</b>
body:
to gban007<br /><br /><b> columbo is saying that mesaana didn't always control Alvarian, after all Ishamael was the first one running that lot around, at beginning of WOT. Mesaana took over from Ishamael at some point. <br />Hope that helps </b><br /><br />Ok, but I don't see why this is a point for Mesaana being Danelle or another Aes Sedai. Several Forsaken used Alviarin and I'm convinced that Mesaana started to control Alviarin shortly after she came to the WT (what speaks against it?).<br /><br /><br />to Heiti,<br /><br />Quite long, don't want to say something to every point yet but to the few interesting.<br /><br /><b> So, the evidence prior to CoT:<br />Pro:<br />1. If M would be an AS, she would suit the Brown (or possibly White) Ajah best. Wanting to be a researcher. </b><br /><br />If she would be an Aes Sedai. But looking at Mesaana's personality it's more likely that she manipulates from the backround through her proxies.<br />Besides, we must decide if we believe that Mesaana searched at first a secure identity to hide in the WT or if she wanted to be someone who looks like her and has a similiar personality, so that e.g. she could teach some Novices.<br />I think the secure idenitiy was the most important and Mesaana really didin't care if she could be a Brown Ajah or not.<br /><br /><b> 2. The reports made by D could be connected to a) the theoretical co-operation between Dem and the WC and b) Sammy ruling Illian. </b><br /><br />But if Mesaana was so successful, why accepted she to be shoved aside shortly after the coup? It doesn't make much sense.<br /><br /><b> 3. D has no friends. (but she isn&#8217;t the only AS without friends) </b><br />4. D &amp; M might both be mistaken for dreamy. &lt;/b&gt;<br /><br />Mesaana is really lucky. <br />She found an Aes Sedai in the WT who has a similar appearance, has the similiar interests (a Brown), similiar attitudes (dreamy) and has no friends.<br /><br /><b> 5. D brings the fighting men to bring SS down, M wishes for more troops, M is an adequate general. </b><br /><br />Someone had to bring the troops. Do you really think it was alone Danelle's plan? Surly not! It was Elaida's and probably Alviarin's plan. Danelle was just the person who carried it out. <br /> <br /><b> 6. M wears russet/bronze silk, AS often wear their Ajah colours or similar. </b><br /><br />You forget or ignore that in TFoH, prologue, pg.3, Danelle wears &quot;a dark gray woll dress&quot; which &quot;was rumpled&quot;. This tells me that it's normal that Danelle doesn't care much about her appearance and hasn't very expensive clothes.<br /><br /><b> Con:<br />1. Danelle is young, Mesaana 300.<br />2. More beginner&#8217;s mistakes ought to be noted when M took over from D.<br />3. Why would M have to be absent from the meetings? Is it Semi, or something holding her in the tower?<br />4. We don&#8217;t see D tapping a finger to her lips.<br />5. How did M know Al had El beaten? </b><br /><br />You forget the gray wool dress as mentioned above.  <br />Also in ACoS, prologue, Alviarin meets several sisters and one is Danelle but a few moments later Mesaana is already waiting in Alviarin's chamber. That is at least strange even if Mesaana used a Gateway.<br /><br /><b> However, here we have the connection: M&#8217;s blue eyes to match D&#8217;s. M&#8217;s voice is recognised by Al. Al would not remember the voice of any secretary or servant, even had she heard them speak, but she has heard D speak. It&#8217;s also been some time since Al&#8217;s seen Danelle, quite apart from her 1 month-leave, D has been slipping away from the center of power for some time. D is young, M middle-aged, that alone might make them similar but not quite recognisable. The features of the original D would have been blurred by the agelessness, perhaps making them more similar to M&#8217;s than they were from the beginning. </b><br /><br />Sorry, but it's really ridiculous. <br />By chance Mesaana found not only an Aes Sedai with a similar look, similiar interests and attitudes, who has no friends but <i> also </i> her voice is similiar to Mesaana's!<br />The only explaination that makes sense is that Alviarin met Mesaana's alter ego (e.g. a secretary of an Aes Sedai) but hardly noticed her. <br />So she can't remember her face or voice though she saw and heard it once.<br /><br /><b> I conclude: I see little or no value in the so called evidence called forth by Etzel to show that M is NOT posing as an AS. I admit that it's a possibility, but not one with any considerable amount of evidence backing it up. And while it&#8217;s a possibility, there&#8217;s a much more likely possibility, supported by evidence. Danelle. </b><br /><br />Read  my theory &amp; comments, think about it again and I'm sure you will see that Mesaana being an Aes Sedai doesn't make sense with the evidences we have, especially after CoT. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />


created: 2003-05-28 16:22:48
subject: <b>Wow</b>
body:
Thanks gban007,  but I still don't think he gets my meaning.<br /><br />Heiti rolled up her sleeves and went to work.  Good for you.  You accomplished what I was to lazy to do.  I also like the way your brain works.  Keep up the good work.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2003-05-28 17:02:29
subject: <b>I don't recognize the name, but we definetely have a new face in town.</b>
body:
Well done Heiti! That was a great piece of evidence, and I can plainly see that you understand what I am talking about. Like Columbo said, keep up the good work, and I hope to see you more! <br /><br />As for you, Etzel, I suggest that you actually consider what we are saying. I truly and honestly don't mean to be rude, but it seems like you just aren't comprehending what we are saying with the MoM and the necessity of AS power to influence the WT's fall. My advice to you is to keep slugging it out. You'll hit on a theory that people will like sooner or later.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2003-05-28 19:09:18
subject: <b>Hmm</b>
body:
@ Columbo<br /><br />I understand you, nevertheless your point that in the past Ishy (or other Forsaken) controled Alviarin is worthless in this discussion. Mesaana controled Alviarin surly since she is in the Tower. <br />I have the feeling even you don't know what you wanted to prove with this. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />@ GG<br /><br /><b> As for you, Etzel, I suggest that you actually consider what we are saying. I truly and honestly don't mean to be rude, but it seems like you just aren't comprehending what we are saying with the MoM and the necessity of AS power to influence the WT's fall. My advice to you is to keep slugging it out. You'll hit on a theory that people will like sooner or later. </b><br /><br />I consider what you are saying and so I come to the conclusion that it can't be right. <br /><br />Besides, note that you and Coulumbo have different oppinions about this topic so at least one of you must be wrong... <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br />Columbo says Mesaana has an Aes Sedai identity and a servant identity (this is at least an explaination for Mesaana's familiar face), while you say that Mesaana must be only an Aes Sedai (which makes no sense). <br />You apparently don't understand what happened in the scene in &quot;A Mark&quot;.<br /><br />And I think I have already enough theories which people like. I'm sure also you like some of my theories! <br />Go and read them! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br />


created: 2003-05-29 12:14:28
subject: <b>Is there a point to all this?</b>
body:
To the reader:<br />I know it&#8217;s a long post. There&#8217;s a conclusion in the end that might save you the time of reading it all, though.<br /><br />To Etzel:<br />1. Looking at Mesaana&#8217;s personality, reading through all the chapters where she&#8217;s mentioned (as listed above) I have not found anything that would point to her being so overly cautious that she&#8217;d choose a servant&#8217;s role. M was one forced to serve as a lowly teacher, and that grates her still. Most prominent in her character is NOT that she&#8217;s careful, but that she&#8217;s knowledge-able and thirsts for more knowledge. (See LoC Prologue, CoS prologue &amp; Ch 25, just to name a few.)<br /><br />True, she is careful, which is why she uses the silver/shadow when meeting Al. I agree that she works in the background when possible, but in order for her to have a proxy close to power, she needed to have Elaida &amp; Al brought to power. (Just in case you feel that M&#8217;s comment in CoT disputes this, consider the fact that El&#8217;s new keeper is also BA.)<br /><br />My point is that M would choose the Brown/White because she would have more time to research this age and figure out how to use it for her purposes. She would have access to the Library, and no one would wonder about her studying.<br /><br />2. You&#8217;ve said it yourself: a) She isn&#8217;t interested in the appearance of power. b) She&#8217;d be in too much spotlight. <br /><br />I could add that she&#8217;s done what needed done (bringing her proxy to power without revealing herself and trained her not to miss a single facial expression), and that it would match the character of a dreamy Brown to be shunned into the background. It&#8217;s also a safety measure; in case her plans do not work out, she&#8217;ll be long gone from power and will have a better chance of escaping unwanted notice from the rebels.<br /><br />4. No, M is not lucky, she&#8217;s skilled. Unless you count it &#8220;luck&#8221; that it&#8217;s typical for AS to work by themselves, that there are several AS who, unlike Siuan and Moi, don&#8217;t have any/many close friends and that members of the Ajah M would be most likely to choose are often mistaken for &#8220;dreamy&#8221; (probably for the same reason M herself is seen as dreamy; they are thinking about their research). Among a multitude of options such as these, I don&#8217;t think that finding someone with the similar stature and features would really need any &#8220;luck&#8221;.<br /><br />5. Do you have any evidence that it was NOT D&#8217;s plan? As seen in other places, El is not likely to consider bringing troops important. All D/M had to do is see this weakness in their plan, timidly suggest a solution, and &#8211;voil&#225;! &#8211; she has a part in making the coup successful.<br /><br />6. I&#8217;m not sure whether that is relevant &#8211; is it her normal garb or has she been out traveling? True, most Browns don&#8217;t pay all that much attention to their clothes&#8230; But we see M wearing brownish colours while she&#8217;s herself, maybe it wouldn&#8217;t fit D&#8217;s character, but like Reanne, M might be assuming the colors of an Ajah she would have chosen.<br /><br />This could be counted both pro and con evidence. Unless someone has some additional proof, I&#8217;m going to a)count it as both pro and con, or b)keep on ignoring it.<br /><br />Con: Why would this be strange? Wouldn&#8217;t it be stranger for M to be waiting for Al if she hadn&#8217;t seen her on her way and known she was coming?<br /><br />Just to counter that &#8220;ridiculous&#8221; of yours, I&#8217;ll explain it to you (again):<br />1. Most AS:<br />a) work alone<br />b) are secretive about their doings<br />c) have the liberty to do what they want without anyone looking into their affairs or telling them what to do<br />All of which would fit a Forsaken in hiding.<br /><br />2. Many/most Browns (as well as some whites &amp; other AS) would <br />a) fit the description &#8220;dreamy&#8221; (perhaps because they are introspective, like M?)<br />b) be interested in research &amp; knowledge(after all, that&#8217;s the prime reason for choosing the Brown, is it not?)<br />c)work alone, and spend a lot of time with their research, leaving little time for friends.<br />(For instance, see chapter 24 in &#8220;the World of Robert Jordan&#8217;s Wheel of Time&#8221;, under &#8220;The Seven Ajahs&#8221;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br />So you have an entire Ajah, approximately 1/7th of the WT AS population filled with people who would have similar interests and attitudes as M, many of whom have no/few friends. According to LoC ch 7 and CoS ch 31 we can conclude that the total amount of AS to choose from before the tower split would be 882 to 900 AS. That means at least 100 women to choose from, however you count.<br /><br />3. Similar looks and voice:<br />a) as has been stated countless times above, what we have is M looking &#8220;tantalizingly familiar&#8221;. So something about her reminds Al of someone she&#8217;s quite familiar with.<br />b) the same can be said for her voice.<br />c) the MoM is easier if you look alike the one you intend to pose as. If D is young enough, she is just developing her ageless look, which leaves even more margin for matching the looks.<br />d) the point here is that what Al sees is what D&#8217;s ageless face might look like middle-ages. If the real D would loose her ageless face, she&#8217;d probably look very young, and probably much less alike to her ageless face than M.<br />e) With so many to choose from, a similar voice should not be hard to find. But frankly, I doubt M actually bothered to look for one. M would know enough about sound and such to subtly modify her voice to match anyone&#8217;s. <br />f) Several times in the books, &#8220;voice&#8221; is used to describe the &#8220;voice of command&#8221; or some such. Quite apart from the fact that Al wouldn&#8217;t be familiar with any servants voice (with the possible exception of her personal maid/secretary, if she had one), she is familiar with the tone of voice M uses.<br /><br />(&#8220;Ridiculous&#8221; is a word which might be applied to the claim that &#8220;Mesaana is not Aes Sedai&#8221;, when the books clearly state that all forsaken are AS from AoL. Ofcourse, if I had taken it literally, we wouldn&#8217;t be having this discussion in the first place, but just for the sake of being accurate, you could have written: &#8220;Mesaana is not posing as an Aes Sedai in the White Tower&#8221;.)<br /><br />No need to be insulting, especially when you know full well I&#8217;ve read your theory. The only real reason to actually believe it would be: &#8220;It would be SO fun if Al was wrong about M being AS&#8221;. But that&#8217;s called wishful thinking, not evidence.<br /><br />As to evidence: Haven&#8217;t you ever been taught the basic rule of negative statements? A negative statement is an absolute statement. To prove that &#8220;Mesaana is not posing as an Aes Sedai&#8221;, you need to prove beyond the shadow of a doubt that there is no way she could be posing as an Aes Sedai. That does not simply mean proving every single shred of proof that she is posing as an Aes Sedai wrong, but to actually find conclusive evidence that she is not posing as an AS. Since you haven&#8217;t even tried that, I&#8217;ll grant you credit enough to think that you realize it&#8217;s impossible. My problem is, assuming you know it is impossible to prove your case, I don&#8217;t see the point in you rambling on:<br /><br />The best you could ever have hoped for is creating some doubt about the &#8220;fact&#8221; that M is AS. Now, no RJ-reader I know ever assumed anything a &#8220;fact&#8221; before RJ proved it to 100% (and some not even then). So what&#8217;s the point? Creating healthy suspicion where such very likely already exists?<br /><br />Conclusion: Nothing new under the sun&#8230; Etzel still doesn&#8217;t have the evidence to actually prove his absolute statement, but continues his struggle to create some doubt in our already suspicious minds. The only thing in this post I&#8217;d really want an answer to is: &#8220;Why?&#8221;<br /><br />Respectfully<br />-Heiti<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">The only way to convince me is by providing some evidence!</font><p></p>


created: 2003-05-29 14:01:20
subject: <b>To Heiti</b>
body:
First of all I didn't want to insult you. The &quot;ridiculous&quot; was not meant rude. I'm not a native speaking English guy therefore sometimes the use of my words is not perfect (and I don't want always write &quot;makes no sense&quot; or &quot;is unlikely <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />)<br />Really sorry if you took it personal! <br /><br /><b> Conclusion: Nothing new under the sun&#8230; Etzel still doesn&#8217;t have the evidence to actually prove his absolute statement, but continues his struggle to create some doubt in our already suspicious minds. The only thing in this post I&#8217;d really want an answer to is: &#8220;Why?&#8221; </b><br /><br />Why? Well, I want the theory with the most comments of course! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br />No, without fun, you can't reproach that I defend my theory and the evidences I found. I believe they are new. <br />Besides, what you point out is the old Danelle theory and a variation from what Green Gaidin and Columbo say. I and everybody else know this already.<br />Also I have explained my view often enough, so I don't wanttp oint out this again and again. Some people agree with me, some not. It's a question how you weigh the different evidences pro and con.<br /><br /><b> (&#8220;Ridiculous&#8221; is a word which might be applied to the claim that &#8220;Mesaana is not Aes Sedai&#8221;, when the books clearly state that all forsaken are AS from AoL. Ofcourse, if I had taken it literally, we wouldn&#8217;t be having this discussion in the first place, but just for the sake of being accurate, you could have written: &#8220;Mesaana is not posing as an Aes Sedai in the White Tower&#8221;.) </b><br /><br />I only want to say a few word to this passage cause I think it is funny. <br />Nevertheless you are not correct or accurate. <br />Saine Tarasind (Mesaana's old name) was surely an Aes Sedai. But the she turned to the Shadow, left the Aes Sedai and finally get the name Mesaana. Therefore <i> Mesaana </i> is a Forsaken not any longer an Aes Sedai. Note that the Aes Sedai are and were an organsiation! What you mean is channeler. Not every channeler is an Aes Sedai. <br /><br />But I think that's really not so important, just wanted to defend my title... <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> <br />


created: 2003-05-30 14:02:34
subject: <b>*lol*</b>
body:
Now, <b>that</b>'d be a fun discussion to pick up.<br /><br />I don't think the books ever say that the Forsaken left the title of AS behind, or that they were cast out of the organisation (just that they &quot;forsook the Light and their oaths of service&quot;WoRJ'sWoT, ch 5). If you find proof for that, I'll have to admit I'm wrong. Until then I'll believe that Mesaana still is Aes Sedai. I'll even show you some evidence for it from the World of Robert Jordan's Wheel of time, chapter 4. The Forsaken are called &quot;the thirteen most powerful leaders of the Forsaken Aes Sedai&quot;, moments before being sealed in the bore.<br /><br />As for the reason I brought up the ancient Danelle theory; as I said above, until you've proven any theory that states that M is posing as an AS, you haven't really proven your theory at all. You really need to adress the evidence of the old M=AS theories if you want people to take you seriously on this.<br /><br />respectfully<br />-Heidi<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">The only way to convince me is by providing some evidence!</font><p></p>


created: 2003-05-30 21:43:29
subject: <b>Hanging in there</b>
body:
Hi, thank you for continuing this discussion guys, I'm really enjoying it. Etzel, I hope you do crack the record <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />You all seem to have spotted far more than me, but I hope you won't mind me putting me making a small contribution. Just a few comments:<br /><br />I think where we've got to is that there is no conclusive proof of Mesaana's identity (thank you RJ). There is more evidence for Danelle than for any other single individual. However, there is probably more against her than any of the other contenders mentioned as well, simply because to provide evidence for, RJ has to talk about her quite a bit. And in his inimitable way, he wants to keep the tension up...<br /><br />I am not sure whether you guys still contributing (Etzel aside) are arguing that Etzel's theory is wrong, or that Mesaana is Danelle - probably both. I still think Etzel is right that she MAY not be, and she has presented some good evidence in another direction. This is of course not proof. I'd like to keep the MAY alive. I'd also like to add a few of pieces of circumstantial evidence that weaken the case for Danelle:<br /><br />1. Even if Danelle has no friends, surely she must be known at least. No one surely could just swan in, say she was a long lost Sister that no-one knew anything about (with or without the face) and immediately be elected as a Sitter by the Brown. Mesaana is not a gambler, and masquerading as a known AS (yes, even one without friends) would be just too damn risky for her.<br /><br />2. As a related point, before Aran'gar/Halima commenced her masquerade as the former secretary of Cabriana Mercedes (have I got that name right?), Semirhage took quite some time away from that &quot;wilful girl&quot; (no I don't doubt that's Tuon, and S is Anath) to torture every last drop of personal info out of Cabriana to ensure Aran'gar was word perfect. We see no such thing happening with Danelle. Yes, I know RJ may have decided not to tell us, which keeps the tension up, but surely we'd have had some clue?<br /><br />3. RJ has &quot;previous&quot; in pointing us one way towards an identity for a Forsaken, then telling us that is incorrect. Consider Demandred: all the evidence was for Taim. There was little against until RJ said he was not. Since then he has been building the story (e.g. the renegade Asha'man in Far Madding talking about being given orders separately by Taim, Demandred and Moridin). Personally I think he intended to make Demandred Taim, then changed his mind to prolong the tension. He may be doing the same with Mesaana.<br /><br />Okay, that's me out for the moment. No proof, but a few indications against Danelle. I still intend to be sceptical.<br /><br />While I am writing, Heiti thank you SO much for that web address. Every time I read some of these theories I want to check points and can never find the part I need. I'm gonna have great fun with that.<br /><br />Incidentally on a recently raised point, in tGH Lanfear (as Selene) very scornfully said to Rand that she was NOT an Aes Sedai. Lanfear and Mesaana may see things differently, and of course Lanfear could have been lying, but on something so un-central to the plot I don't think RJ would have bothered, so I'd say Mesaana also does not consider herself (possible aliases aside of course) as Aes Sedai.


created: 2003-05-31 10:30:13
subject: <b>Well</b>
body:
@ Haiti<br /><br /><b> I don't think the books ever say that the Forsaken left the title of AS behind, or that they were cast out of the organisation (just that they &quot;forsook the Light and their oaths of service&quot;WoRJ'sWoT, ch 5). If you find proof for that, I'll have to admit I'm wrong. Until then I'll believe that Mesaana still is Aes Sedai. I'll even show you some evidence for it from the World of Robert Jordan's Wheel of time, chapter 4. The Forsaken are called &quot;the thirteen most powerful leaders of the Forsaken Aes Sedai&quot;, moments before being sealed in the bore. </b><br /><br />They were surely cast out of the Aes Sedai organisation when they &quot;forsook their oaths of service&quot; (their Aes Sedai oaths) and turned to the Shadow.<br />In the Guide's passage about Semirhage you can read that Semirhage was threatened &quot;to be severed from the One Power and cast out in disgrace from the Aes Sedai&quot; because she liked to torture people before she turned to the Shadow. <br />We can really assume that the men and women who not &quot;only&quot; tortured some people but became even Forsaken and tried to destroy the Light were at least cast out in disgrace and surely not allowed (or had no interests) to keep their Aes Sedai title.<br />When the Forsaken are called the 13 most powerful Aes Sedai who turned to the Shadow, it's just meant that they were Aes Sedai before they turned not that they are still Aes Sedai.  <br /><br /><b> As for the reason I brought up the ancient Danelle theory; as I said above, until you've proven any theory that states that M is posing as an AS, you haven't really proven your theory at all. You really need to adress the evidence of the old M=AS theories if you want people to take you seriously on this. </b><br /><br />I said something to the Danelle theory in my earlier comments. <br />With the evidences in my theory it's clear that Mesaana is not an Aes Sedai in my opinion. <br />Of course, if this theory is right or wrong will hopefully be proved in the next book. I'm certain I'm right but if you are right, it's also ok. At least we had something to discuss...<br /><br />@ Jordanian<br /><br /><b> Hi, thank you for continuing this discussion guys, I'm really enjoying it. Etzel, I hope you do crack the record </b> <br /><br />Thanks! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Of course i agree with your points, nothing to argue here  (at least for me <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />). <br />


created: 2003-05-31 11:44:57
subject: <b>What is the record?</b>
body:
Is it still 97? lol. Now THAT was a mudslinger.<br /><br />anyway, this convo needs a new topic to branch off into to make it #1. It doesn't have enough juice to give it another 25 odd.<br /><br />Heiti:<br /><br />Don't sweat Etzel. He came up with an interesting idea that fell short. You can see it, I can see it... anyone who knows their WoT (maniacs who've read it ten times) knows that it's wrong. Don't spend your time arguing on this theory: it's like screaming at a wall <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Now if I can only take my own advice <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2003-05-31 12:23:20
subject: <b>Hmm @ Green Gaidin</b>
body:
<b> Don't sweat Etzel. He came up with an interesting idea that fell short. You can see it, I can see it... anyone who knows their WoT (maniacs who've read it ten times) knows that it's wrong. Don't spend your time arguing on this theory: it's like screaming at a wall </b> <br /><br />Do you really need to read a book/series ten times before you believe that you know and understand it? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> <br />It seems so...  <br />But somehow I seriously doubt that you read CoT ten times otherwise you had probably realized the problems with Mesaana being an Aes Sedai, especially after reading this theory. <br /><br />


created: 2003-06-09 22:24:04
subject: <b>Still a good theory, Etzel</b>
body:
To Green Gaidin:<br /><br /> while Heiti mentioned it, I will reiterate-Messana LOATHES teaching. That was the reason she turned to the Shadow.  She wanted to be a researcher.<br /><br /> To Heiti:  Where do you get your information that Tarna Feir is BA?  I believe she has proved she is not by trying to get the Red Ajah to bond the Asha`man<br /><br /> And you chastised Etzel for making assumptions, instead of presenting facts.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2003-06-11 17:53:09
subject: <b>Real Quick About Forsaken not being Aes Sedai</b>
body:
It seems reasonable to assume that, in the AoL, once the prominent Aes Sedai swore their to the Dark One they could no longer be truly called Aes Sedai: the derivation of Aes Sedai from is the Old Tongue.  Aes Sedai means: &quot;servants of all.&quot;<br /><br />The act of swearing allegiance to the Dark One and becoming a Dread Lord seems to preclude &quot;serving all.&quot;  The Forsaken serve the Dark One and themselves.  Indeed, the appellation of the name &quot;Forsaken&quot; seems to indicate a definitive break between their status as &quot;servants of all&quot; into &quot;servants of the Shadow.&quot;<br /><br />I know that that's a bit tangential, but I haven't been moved to post here for over a year.  I've read the series five times now, (CoT once...) and I do think that there's something to the idea that multiple readings of this series lends credence to a theoretician: at least, if those re-readings are deep and insightful.<br /><br />I think that Etzel's theory has a great deal of merit, as does Heiti's refutation.  Green Gaidin and Columbo have also made some points, but their rather combative writing style often prejudices me against what they say.  That being said, when I can get past their writing style, I often find some merit in their opinions.<br /><br />That being said, reading this thread of discussion was quite fun: but we should avoid condescension in discussion.  Just because a newbie has never posted a theory before or is just getting started is no reason to flame them for their opinions: doing that only ensures that no new voices and opinions are offered, and if there is one thing that I got sick of it was reading the same theories and same posts by the same people.  New blood makes sure that there is a chance that some wunderkind has the chance to come in and find a theory that we all overlooked.<br /><br />Sorry to get preachy and stuff: one of the reasons that I never post is limited computer access, and this summer I have that.  Keep up the good work.


created: 2003-06-12 19:34:14
subject: <b>well said lessthanpleased.</b>
body:
Imagine if Jordan came here and decided to post a thoery (lol) and got cut down for being a newbie and not knowing what hes talking about <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Moridin/Ishamael's spiritual advisor.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-green.gif" border="0" /> Jedi Knight <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-green.gif" border="0" /><br />Proud Warder to Tatayana and Lanfear81.<br />In love with a beautiful English lady.<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-15 05:26:21
subject: <b>bring on the bronze!</b>
body:
I think the bronze silk dresses are the kicker hint here.  Mesaana is always in bronze -- first black/bronze and then green/bronze.<br /><br />Can anyone think of any characters around the white tower that conspiciously and often wear bronze???<br /><br />My recall for details isn't the greatest but I know some of you remember who was wearing what in every single chapter, so let's have it!<br /><br />Who's bronzed in the white tower?  Who are we missing?


created: 2003-07-26 21:36:27
subject: <b>Mesaana is Else Grinwell</b>
body:
Dear Etzel,<br />    I don't see what the big mystery is. Rand and Mat met Else Grinwell on their way to Caemlyn in TEotW, and that made her go to the White Tower. There, she was able to channel, but spent too much time mooning after the warders, and was put out of the Tower. However, Else supposedly told Egwene, Elayne, and Nynaeve where the remaining belongings of the thirteen fled Black Ajah sisters were, under the Tower library. She said she was sent by the Amyrlin. However, when Egwene gave chase, she found a woman who made her feel pathetic. This might have been Egwene unconciously sensing Mesaana's greater strength in the power ( we know she does not do that conciously until she finds out about Ahvienda at Rhuidean), or Mesaana might have used a bit of Compulsion, or just enhanced her own appearance. Later, Mat meets Else on his way to fight Galad and Gawyn, but she rather coldly rebuffs him, and makes sure he does not follow her, because she realizes he could blow her identity. And you supposition that it is difficult to hold Mask of Mirrors is clearly erronious. You gave one example where Graendal removes it, but what about the other examples of usage? The captive Moghedien as 'Marigan'? Lanfear as Selene and Kielle? We know that the Forsaken were free by then (Be'lal and Sammael in Tear and Illian) and Mesaana needed time to garner support for the coup of Suian Sanche. She may have any number of identities, for not everyone in the Tower knows everyone else, and if they see someone they don't know, who looks like they belong, they will just assume that they belong.


created: 2004-04-09 13:52:01
subject: <b>Just a thought</b>
body:
I vaguely remember a novice who was serving a punishment out of the Tower. She was sent there after working under Laras for a bit. While outside the tower she was presumably attacked by an unknown identity. The Aes Sedai never heard from this girl again. It is my opinion that Mesaana is the unknown attacker. <br /><br />Whith the knowledge the girl had about the tower it is clear to me why she was attacked. This situation greatly reminds me of the process Aran'gar used to create an identity. I therefore think it would be possible for Mesaana to be posing as Laras. The novice, having worked under the woman for weeks, would most certainly have enough information about Laras for Mesaana to form a proper identity. And as we've seen with Lanfear, it's very possible to disguise oneself as a larger person. Another thing I noticed was Laras's change in attitude. Siuan noted that every since she was appointed mistress of the kitchen Laras had taken a complete change in attitude. The time she was appointed to this position was very close to the attack on the novice, so one could see how the timing of the events played out in Mesaana's favor, as her change in attitude was passed off for something it wasn't.<br /><br />The reason I think that the indentity is not of the novice herself is that the Aes Sedai never heard from her again. I remember two of them dicussing the fact that the girl &quot;ran away&quot; while serving the penance. This most certainly gives that she was eventually killed by Mesaana, and that Mesaana did not assume the girl's identity permanently and return to the Tower. Along these lines however, I think Mesaana may have assumed the girl's indentity just long enough to get into the tower and find Laras. I think the girl may have been Else Grinwell, which would explain her attitude towards Mat later in the series when they met again, but I can't seem to remember if the girl was Else or not.<br /><br />The only thing I am unsure about (other than if it was Else or not) is where this occured. I have an exceptionally poor memory for when things happened (ie, in what books) but I'm often good at storing pieces of information I find useful. If anyone knows where the two events (the attack on the novice and the conversation about her running away) took place (books and chapters) I would appreciate if you told me.


created: 2004-05-11 16:27:07
subject: <b>Laras</b>
body:
Personally, I have always thought it to be Laras. The fact the the Mask of Mirrors would be harder doens't convince me of anything.<br />After all, what did Lanfear do in the Waste? She didn't use the mask of mirrors to hide herself.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="#FF0000">Head Generalisimo</font> <font color="#FFFFFF">Who by the way, never loses</font><br />Narg'Blis<br />The Smiter<br /><font color="#6699CC">Little Sis to Phil</font><br /><font color="#00CC33">Protected by Quoth</font><br /><font color="#0000CC">Isa is my best thumb</font><br />Plus I love Belals Girl.</font><p></p>


created: 2004-08-25 22:03:11
subject: <b>my theory</b>
body:
mesaana is min.<br />if this turned out true it would be great storytelling anyways.<br />mesaana is given the distinction of being one who hides in the shadows, and it would be truly out of character for her to hide so close to rand.<br />but no one pays any attention to her.<br />and who has the foretelling but can't channel? it just doesn't happen.<br />so that's my theory.<br />i had more reasons but i forgot them.<br />i haven't read books 9 and 10 in awhile so maybe something in them proves me wrong but as far as crown of swords this is what i think.


created: 2005-02-20 19:59:26
subject: <b>min doesnt fortell</b>
body:
she has a 'special' ability. in any case, its completely unrelated to the power, just like wolfbrothers(who, if they are perrin, SUCK!) and dreamwalkers.<br /><br />I had also thought it would be hard for mesaana to be an aesedai (one word, thats cool...) I like this compilation of facts to back up my thoughts.<br /><br />Fisher King said something.... i dont remember what it was, but i know i agreed with it.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">-Sabin<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-05-18 19:19:01
subject: <b>Crazy talk</b>
body:
There is no actual evidence pointing to Skellit as the killer. Even all the clues you give are almost worthless in that they do no rule out any people, and they certainly do not implicate Skellit.<br /><br />It was a very cold night therefore it was not a common thief<br />- why not? thieves don't work when it is cold? and what better place to mug someone than outside the palace, where your hits will be richer?<br /><br />He was standing there for hours, therefore he must be from the palace or he would be suspicious<br />- you don't think the palace barber hiding outside the palace for hours would be suspicious? probably more suscipious than an unknown person who may have a reason for standing there. and other people don't hang out around the palace? you don't have nameless stablemen or such? plus remember he was hiding.<br /><br />The man has stubble, therefore he must have been very nervious and forgot to shave<br />- surely if anyone is going to keep themselves shaven, it would be a barber? hardly a good advertisment for your skills if you can't even shave yourself. sounds more like a general unshaven thug, than someone who works at the palace.<br /><br />He had a comb in his pocket<br />- or RJ was just trying to say he had nothing interesting in his pocket. and plenty of people have combs in their pockets. trying to call this a garrot is a huge reach - but even if it is, it doesn't prove he was a barber.<br /><br />So to summerise the evidence, the killer was a man, unremarkable, and not a professional (I believe that part of your theory). But Skellit, the barber? Probably not. Let along Skellit who for some strange reason has turned to the Dark One (we were never told he was a darkfriend, or even suspicious), and was sent on a suicide mission - couldn't a better use be found for a darkfriend in the palace and with the ability to feed Elayne information?<br />


created: 2003-05-18 23:25:27
subject: <b>I agree with some points</b>
body:
I agree with it being Skellit, but i disagree with most of the rest. After he was hired by Reene, he could have been doing something perfectly innocent outside the palace, and seen Hanlon walking out. As mentioned it was a cold night, and therefore not the best for walking out in. Skellit notided this and decided he may be able to sell some secret infromation about what the captain of Elayne's guard was doing outside on a bitterly cold night. He had his knife out, because he was afraid of thugs attacking HIM. Noboby hired him, and he was just carrying whatever he had gotten from shaving that day. That would explain the lack of gold. Or possably he was promised wealth if he helped Camylin be taken, so he decided that the death of the captain of Elayne's bodyguard would cause a good amount of fear among everyone else.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sir, I admit your general rule<br />That every poet is a fool.<br />But you yourself may serve to show it,<br />That every fool is not a poet.<br /> <br />Shendolin Valderen on the RPG <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-05-18 23:32:05
subject: <b>I don't know if I agree, but...</b>
body:
well-written theory. We need more like this on the theory post, even if they may be totally wrong. Keep up the good work!<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />


created: 2003-05-18 23:40:46
subject: <b>the stubble</b>
body:
I really don't understand why this guy would have stubble on his face if he was a barber.<br /><br />The only practical idea is that he was so nervous for having to kill Hanlon.<br /><br />But didn't Hanlon's PoV say that Hanlon's meeting was a last minute affair?  <br /><br />If the barbor had stubble, that would imply that he had to know of this a day or 2 in advance, and also freaked out.<br /><br />I really like this theory, and highly enjoyed reading it.  This is obviously the best theory yet, and the the only realistic one in my eyes, on who Hanlon killed.  I also liked the analysis.<br /><br />This seems like the kind of thing that RJ might slip in.  The 2 hints that give this a slight amount of credence are the comb, and the fact that he was employed by one of Elayne's rebel houses, and that Mili had also met with one of those houses recently.<br /><br />There are simply no other suspects that any good, and this one at least partially fits the bill.<br /><br />But I am still stuck on the stubble...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ADA- AlannaDawn Anonymous-- helping wotmaniacs recovering from their AlanndaDawn Addictions in a dynamic new 12-step program.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-05-19 00:56:13
subject: <b>Are you people insane?</b>
body:
Like Adrian said above, there is NO solid evidence that implicates Skellit, and the cited evidence is so vague that it could apply for anyone.  A stubbly faced, unremarkable, unprofessional man with twine and a comb in his pocket and an unsheathed dagger, and the conclusion is it's the barber Skellit?  Not only that but he's sent on Shadow business, despite the lack of evidence he's a dark friend, or involved with Dark Friends?  I admire the enthusiasm with which the theory is written, and it is a well written theory, but I see absolutly zero evidence that supports the conclusion that Skellit was the stalker.  Also, the idea that the barber would use a knife to cut hair is ridiculous.  In the books (TDR, I think) Perrin or Moiraine makes reference to scissors, so we can assume that scissors exist in the WoT world.  I would have to imagine that the Royal Barber inthe Palace of Caemlyn would have the finest tools for his trade, ergo he would have scissors, not a knife for cutting hair.<br /><br />With that said, the discussion of motive is at least interesting...  Sorry to sound so negative, but I really don't think this theory has suggested anything that justifies its conclusion.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Of course, that's just my opinion.  I could be wrong.<br /><br />&quot;Life is like WoT... You never know when it's gonna end.&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2003-05-19 02:09:56
subject: <b>Good Theory</b>
body:
Even if the evidence isn't very strong, we must admire Etzel for imagination. Everything fits very well together and the theory makes a very interesting read.<br /><br />I wouldn't have used Slayer as the example that non-channelers can tell the difference between a regular person and a Gray Man. This might be one of Slayer's powers after all. Perrin can smell a Gray Man, but that is obviously because of his wolf senses. We would need Mat or some other non-channeler to have conclusive evidence about this.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">May you always walk in the Light,<br /><br />Adan, Jenn Aiel</font><p></p>


created: 2003-05-19 02:12:29
subject: <b>I agree Hand of Rob</b>
body:
There isn't much going for this theory yet.<br /><br />But it is the best theory devised yet to fit the circumstances.<br /><br />There simply have been no other good suspects named yet, and I admire Etzel for his hard work going in to flesh this out.<br /><br />I think his explanation of the motive was quite good.  But I still cannot get over why a barber would have stubble.  That just doesn't make sense to me yet.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ADA- AlannaDawn Anonymous-- helping wotmaniacs recovering from their AlanndaDawn Addictions in a dynamic new 12-step program.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-05-19 02:30:59
subject: <b>I agree</b>
body:
I agree with most parts of this theory. What I'm not entirly convinced about is Skellit meaning to kill him. He is a spy after all. He's probably watching Hanlon to see what he does. I do, however; agree that he's a dark friend. I think the Lady Shiaine might have been just having Hanlon watched because she didn't trust him. Sending some fool to kill him as a warning would only boost a man like Hanlon's confidence. On the flip side, boosting his confidence might make him careless and allow Shiaine to see what he's up to. But I think that's a bit risky when you got Mordin over you. If she was going to try and have him killed, she wouldn't have sent Skellit. And sending him to die is too risky if Hanlon were to catch and question him(Skellit wouldn't hold out against a man like that). <br /><br />The stubble I think IS a clue. He probably didn't want to be recognized and knew not to shave that morning(the meeting was last minute for Hanlon, Shiaine could've had this planned). <br /><br />Same with the comb. I don't think RJ just happened to pick a comb as an iteam in his pocket for no reason when we've got a spy-barber working in the same building as Hanlon. <br /><br />RJ's hints aren't always glaringly clear with all arrows pointing to the obvious place. This only just happened. So I think you've done a very good job of sniffing this out considering the amount of clues.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Fortune rides like the sun on high<br />with the fox that makes the ravens fly.<br />Luck his soul, the lightning his eye,<br />He snatches the moons from out the sky.&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-05-19 03:18:37
subject: <b>Pretty Good</b>
body:
I think your physical evidence was pretty bad. I mean, he had a comb so he's a barber. Though the last bit was good, with the reason why Skellit was the one stalking Hanlon. You probly should have put that first and talk about the stuble and comb stuff twords the end. It just seemed like you pulled a random name out of the air and started rambling about how he was in a hurry so he grabed a comb and some string to make the thingumgigy that's a well known assains tool. I don't think your right but I at least it's better and more imaginative than Fain or Slayer who are blamed for everything. Personally my bet's are on one of Lord Elegars distant counsins brought back from the dead.<br /><br />P.S. Realizing that whoever Hanlon killed had a name. Pure Genius i.e. title


created: 2003-05-19 04:45:03
subject: <b>Oh, I agree it is a well written imaginative theory</b>
body:
But, I just think the conclusion is unsupported.  I really do think this theory is imaginative and well constructed, and it IS the most plausible theory on the subject so far, which I guess says not much quality thought has been applied to the topic so far <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />.  As someone just above stated, this theory might have been better if motive were provided first, and circumstantial evidence second.  I really hope no one is thinking I'm being too hard on this, I just don't see how the conclusion follows from the argument.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Of course, that's just my opinion.  I could be wrong.<br /><br />&quot;Life is like WoT... You never know when it's gonna end.&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2003-05-19 10:39:46
subject: <b>eh...</b>
body:
You obviously put a lot of thought into this theory, because its really long, and I guess you could be right, though I don't think so - but I'm going to have to agree with the idea that your facts really didn't prove anything -mainly I think it was a problem with your logic, you can't just say A=B, so C - there has to be some sort of connection - the man had a comb in his pocket, so he was a barber?  My dad carries a comb - he just likes his hair to look neat. All the guys in the movie grease carried combs - they were just weird.<br /> He had stuble so he was frantic and forgot to shave? I've always pictured the majority of the population in WoT walking around with stubble(the men at least)if they don't just have a beard - kind of like not too long ago in our history, when people didn't shave every morning - it doesn't sound to me like the mach 3 turbo is in great supply in WoT.  Plus - it was late at night right? even if he shaved in the morning he could easily have stubble by night time.<br />There were other points I didn't agree with, but you get the point - just a bunch of illogical conclusions.  Sorry to sound like a dick - I'm just in a sour mood with no one to take it out on.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">--If they ever come up with a swashbuckling School, I think one of the courses should be Laughing, Then Jumping Off Something--</font><p></p>


created: 2003-05-19 13:47:54
subject: <b>It may not be Perfect</b>
body:
but it is interesting to read and provides page numbers and quotes intergrated into complete sentences.<br /><br />It is a complete theory about something wholly COT which is impressive.<br /><br />i am undecided but very glad that there is something new on the Theory post.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">patiently waiting for October 2009</font><p></p>


created: 2003-05-19 19:45:07
subject: <b>Man, unremarkable, unshaven....thats it....</b>
body:
sorry but nothing in any of your examples show that it could've been skellit. renne harfor has found many spies in the palace given that maybe half of them were male spies, any one of them couldve been it. or it couldve been an A.S. eyes and ears or any number of possibilities. all we know is that the corpse was a man, unremarkable and unshaven. with a comb and twine....<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rand.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perrin.gif" border="0" /><br />I don't fail. I succeed in finding what doesn't work. <br /><br /><font color="00ff33">Official Sponsor of the Melindhra Fan Club</font></font><p><a href="http://www.illwillpress.com" target="_blank">Feel the Squirley Wrath!!!!</a></p><p></p>


created: 2003-05-19 23:12:33
subject: <b>nice work, but.......</b>
body:
first off, this is an incredible piece of work. you obviously put a ton of effort into page numbers, quotations, etc. so, GJ.<br /><br />all the same though, i totally agree with the fact that the evidence does not support the conclusion. let's be honest, here's the evidence:<br /><br />a comb<br />twine<br />stubble<br />a knife<br /><br />none of that really screams 'barber' to me.. <br /><br />the comb could be for simple grooming, <br />the twine could be for baling hay, <br />the stubble could be because he's lazy, <br />the knife could be for cutting twine off hay bales. or cutting jerky. or carving wood. or, hey, for self-defense on dangerous city streets<br /><br />IMO the evidence implicates no one in particular. i, myself, have carried a ball of twine, a comb, and a knife in my pocket on occasion.<br /><br />i have no interest in the cutting or styling of hair.<br />maybe daved hanlon killed a boy scout.......<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>&quot;Those who beat their swords into plowshares will plow for those who don't.&quot; - Thomas Jefferson</i><br /><br /> PSUCOM Class of '09</font><p></p>


created: 2003-05-19 23:44:23
subject: <b>Excellent work...</b>
body:
I think alot of people here have missed the point.  This is a theory, the point of a theory is to take some evidence and fill in the gaps with your imagination to come up with a possible and likly answer.<br /><br />This has been done here, and very well as lots of possibilities have been outlined and the most realistic picked. Lets lay off a bit.<br /><br />Skellit is mentioned far to much by RJ (since there are many other spys, none given as much attention) to be just a random character, and the comb and twine do suggest a barber (ok many people COULD carry those items, but RJs clues are never obvious, and Skellit is hardly going to carry a red and white striped pole around is he!!)<br /><br />I dont belive he was out to kill him however, he could have had his knive out defensivly. Lets face it he is a spy not an assasin. For the stubble, well my face doesnt stay clean shaven well into the night. Short of Hanlon grabbing his groin this is the best way for RJ to confirm the attackers gender to the reader!


created: 2003-05-20 07:18:47
subject: <b>Thanks for the replies</b>
body:
As I said in my theory, RJ gave us only a few hints; it's sadly not that much. <br />Nevertheless did he spend some time to discribe the attacker and the scene, so I wanted to find out why. <br /><br />The reason must be that the person was already mentioned and is not just a nameless Darkfriend (therefore the title, Moridin Haran, which should also be a bit ironic...). <br /><br />This theory's worth is in my opinion that it gives a likely name considering the few hints we have. <br />Skellit fits with everything we have (even if it's not much), nothing really speaks against him. <br />I don't think that someone can find a better name for the victim than &quot;Jon Skellit&quot; yet, but if, it would also be good that this theory inspired to find the real name.<br />Besides, I believe the death of this person will have a certain plot relevance in Book 11 which is likely with Skellit.<br /><br />The stubble was probably like obsessedwithTWOT said only there to make clear it was man. We don't know how fast Skellit's beard grows after all. <br /> <br />Finally I want to say that really no comment was too hard and hurted me or something like that. <br />I'm always glad if people say their true opinion about my theories! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />


created: 2003-05-20 14:48:10
subject: <b>Cmon guys</b>
body:
I think this is a really good theory. In response to some of the counter arguments, the man had stubble because it was late at night, so he shaved in the morning, i have stubble by the end of the day.<br />  All the people that argue that the comb and twine were just a meaningless detail need to realize this IS robert jordan were talking about. i dont think hes ever given a meaningless detail in his life, i mean even in TEOTW when moiraine heals tam, rand shivers (because he can sense saidar because he can channel) this is BOOKS before we learn men can sense women's channeling.<br />  I just have to say i am very impressed with this theory, good work picking up on details i know that i just skimmed over.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Whelp, I'm rich! So long losers who I've always hated.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-05-20 23:49:00
subject: <b>Come on here!</b>
body:
RJ does put plenty of irrelevent detail into his books, it is one way that he hides the real clues. And even then, none of the detail that is quoted even vaguely indicates a barber unless you have an overactive imagination. Do all the people (62% of you) that are voting thumbs up actually believe that Skellit is the most likely candidate?<br /><br />Also, no one has yet addressed the idea that if Skellit did become a darkfriend (there is no evidence of that though), he would have been in a very useful position, conidering he has the ear of both parties in the Andor conflict, and he has access to the Palace - why waste that for an object lesson to Daved Hanlon? Most likely, the victim was some unnammed (or previously nammed but forgotten) darkfriend doing what they were told. And Skellit was described simply because he may have a role in the following books in Elayne's plans for Andor (more likely considering how his character was described).<br /><br />I don't actually have a problem with the theory, but many of the comments about it are very uncritical. Surely 'thumbs up' should mean 'I agree that this is the most likely outcome', and not 'this was well written and interesting'.


created: 2003-05-21 20:45:46
subject: <b>..... NO!</b>
body:
Honestly, I think this theory was pointless.  Writing about this event is irrelevant.  Good effort, but your topic has no merit. Think about all the resources you just put into...nothing...and how, if used properly, you could've written about how and when Mat and Perrin would eventually create a bombs, cannons, and guns.<br /><br />Sorry, but it's the truth.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" />Big Pimp of the West<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" />Destroyer of Lannisters<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gimli.gif" border="0" />Last of the Druids<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gimli.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" />&quot;This is our treaty written; This is agreement made.<br /> Thought is the arrow of time; Memory never fades.<br /> What was asked is given. The price is paid.&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-05-21 21:59:42
subject: <b>diserbagraaaa</b>
body:
im going to ave to disagree.... i dont think the &quot;clues&quot; are hard enough in this case. i know it will be revealed it was somebody soon enough and have some relevance other than showing off hanlons killing style, but as of yet i think we might have to sit and wait.


created: 2003-05-21 22:36:47
subject: <b>Ehh...</b>
body:
Whoo, that was one long theory. I read it twice, and went back to the books to try to figure out just where Skellit was mentioned. And, unfortunately, I have to agree with the others-the man Daved killed could be anybody, a regular thief, an assassin (albeit very stupid one) a character we know (most likely). Shoot, it could be Lini's half-brother's sister's son's sister's husband's brother. Or even Garrett (someone's been playing too much &quot;Thief&quot; lately). And we might not even find out in the next book-Jordan has a strange habit for not telling us who killed who. (coughAsmodeon'skillercough) The clues just don't add up to anyone specific. Very well-written though, I'll give ya that. Ciao.


created: 2003-05-25 05:58:11
subject: <b>who says?</b>
body:
who says that a barber can't have stubble? just cause he's a barber doesn't mean that he keeps himself tip top. maybe he's been so busy he couldn't shave, or maybe he lost all his tools...there's a hundred reasons why he didn't/couldn't have shaved. That counter-critique is very feeble.<br /><br />I don't know about you all, but I CAN shave every day, and I pretty much need to shave every two days. I still don't understand people who say barbers HAVE to shave their stubble every day. I think people who say that are either really pessimistic or really optimistic.<br /><br />Good theory. I can't remember if I voted yes or no though. I think I voted yes. Cheers.


created: 2003-05-25 11:35:22
subject: <b>The mystery</b>
body:
I'll willingly admit I missed it in teh book, but am I the only one to see a certain lack of sense in these two objects: <br /><br />1.stubble<br />2.comb<br />?<br /><br />The first one indicates some sort of laxity in shaving (and I doubt it's just afternoon stubble, that'd hardly be worth mentioning). True, it stands to reason that people do not shave as often in WoT as here, especially not in the winter, but...<br /><br />The comb indicates someone interested in outer appearances. Even vanity, perhaps. (The person does have somewhat regular features, so we might assume him vain, if it wasn't for the stubble, that is). Although carrying a comb around might not be unusual, carrying a comb around for no reason doesn't make sense. The comb was meant to be used, either on the man's own head (vanity/appearances) or someone elses (a barberer).<br /><br />So, we have contradicting evidence. A barber is a plausible explanation for this aberration.<br /><br />It could very well be Skellit. There's enough evidence to create &quot;reasonable doubt&quot; that this might be the case.<br /><br />I don't buy the part of the theory where Skellit is employed by Shiaine, or that he was trying to kill Hanlon. He's a spy, and might have wished to &quot;prove&quot; his new loyalty to Elayne by catching her &quot;lover&quot; up to no good. There's no indication him following Hanlon was planned. He might just have seen Hanlon leave and decided to follow.<br /><br />I'd still like an explanation for the ball of twine, though. A barber using a garrotte is a bit on the imaginative side, even had he planned the nightly excursion and the killing.<br /><br />Oh, and Skellit has received money from Arawn, that's how they found him out in the first place. Unless the &quot;men known to favor Arawn&quot; were also in someone else's (Shiaine's) pay, in which case it's uncertain if Skellit really knows his true employer. That he's not carrying any of the money around is simple common sense.<br /><br />In conclusion;<br />The stubble and the comb are evidence of contradictory straits.<br />The ball of twine needs further explanation.<br />It could be Skellit, allthough I don't agree on the appointed motives and employer in the Post.<br /><br />respectfully<br />Heiti<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">The only way to convince me is by providing some evidence!</font><p></p>


created: 2003-09-05 04:03:55
subject: <b>Weak...</b>
body:
I agree that it could be Skellit, but the evidence you've provided is pretty weak... Nobody uses a ball of twine as a garrot, ever.  A garrot would be a length of cord with loops or handles at either end.  It's very unlikely that the man was going to try to kill Hanlon.  I'm pretty sure he was just there to follow Hanlon, and most likely wasn't a darkfriend.


created: 2004-05-12 16:13:27
subject: <b>Concerning Stubble</b>
body:
I just read this recently, so this is late in coming to the discussion, but I believe that the stubble points to very little - neither being in support of the theory nor raising a question against it.<br /><br />When I do shave, it is usually in the morning by habit. Though I do shave at other times of the day on occasion, most people that I know tend to shave in the morning as part of the &quot;getting ready for the day&quot; ritual.<br /><br />Depending on the man's personal hair growth, he would be very likely have &quot;a rasp of stubble&quot; even if he shaved that very morning.  It would not matter if it was early or late in the morning; by this hour of night, stubble is very likely to have grown.  An example would be the common concept of a 5 o'clock shadow, but it stubble would be more of an appropriate description since this was at night and not in the afternoon.<br /><br />Unless the victim had incredibly slow hair growth or unless he shaved immediately upon receiving notice of the assasination attempt, he would have stubble.  I think that RJ mentioning the fact of the stubble was more or less like a red herring.  <br /><br />Whether or not it is actually Jon Skellit, I am not sure.  But it is definitely a well laid out theory.


created: 2003-05-23 14:24:39
subject: <b>Very, very impressing!</b>
body:
With your quotes, it's clear that there is a certain sound of Saidin. <br />If it's true that Rand hears no song anymore when he holds Saidin in the books after TGH it's surly an effect of the taint. <br />Then he will probably start to hear the Saidin Song in Book 11 again (I think in CoT he hears nothing...). <br />And it could very well play a part at TG.<br /><br />But I'm not certain what you mean about the connection to the Tinker's Song. <br />Do you mean that the Song of Saidin is this song, and so they must find Rand? How could they lost this song if they were never able to sing it? Or do you think that the people who had the talent of the Voice were able to form the song of Saidin in human words and sing it? <br />Must admit I don't understand it yet completely.<br /><br />Anyway, a great theory with many things to discuss. <br />Has Saidar or even the True Power also a certain song/sound? If not, why only Saidin?<br />Why does the taint make you not hear the song anymore? Does mad channeler hear something else and is that the reason why they become mad? And so on...<br /><br />Hmm, must think about all this! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />


created: 2003-05-23 15:11:19
subject: <b>maybe</b>
body:
maybe Rand should ask one of the newest Ashaman recruits if they hear the song, and ask them to sing along with it to see what happens, maybe it would knock something loose in his mind and cause him to remember the song...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Disney Monkey extraordinaire!</font><p></p>


created: 2003-05-23 16:13:00
subject: <b>Fantastic!</b>
body:
What an amazing theory! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Nice work, lots to think about..<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>&quot;Those who beat their swords into plowshares will plow for those who don't.&quot; - Thomas Jefferson</i><br /><br /> PSUCOM Class of '09</font><p></p>


created: 2003-05-23 16:36:04
subject: <b>Nice</b>
body:
Very impressive theory but I must admit that I agree with Etzel about not exactly seeing the connection to tinker song.  I believe that you are on to something with the song of saidin but I still thing something is missing to connect it with the tinker song.  Good theory.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Front Man for the MH club</font><p></p>


created: 2003-05-23 17:04:56
subject: <b>Thanks for the support so far</b>
body:
To Etzel, yes I do believe the song of saidin is the Tinkers song. Remember, the Tinkers were a group of Aiel that branched off on their own. Now, as to whether the song has any words, is up for debate, but I think it is pure song. When Coumin has his point of view, he mentions the voices of those around the other fields and the sounds that he made himself, but no mention of words. <br /><br /> Also, the Da'shain Aiel enhanced the effect of channeling, so it would seem to me that although they can't channel themselves, they know the sound of the song.<br /><br /> There was also a passage in TGH, when Rand listens to Loial's Treesong in the Mirror World. He describes  the time he heard him sing before as the earth singing. (When Loial sang to Someshta in TEotW). This time, Rand describes it as being almost hypnotized by it, and filling his mind like the void does. He also is unable to make out any words, and thinks it is pure song. He goes on to think that the song is also familiar. I only left it out because I was getting pretty long-winded. The passage takes place in TGH, Kinslayer, HB, p.199 if you want to see it word for word.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2003-05-23 17:06:41
subject: <b>Great!</b>
body:
I love it! Another comprehensive theory, quite well documented too. Great theory indeed. Gives one quite a bit to think about, the origin of the Song, Saidin's connection with it. Great stuff to think over. Well done.


created: 2003-05-23 17:43:42
subject: <b>Interesting</b>
body:
It seems to me that the song used in conjunction with saidin is metaphorical - the siren song of temptation and power.  It is interesting that there are several musical references, though.<br />


created: 2003-05-23 18:18:07
subject: <b>When does one start channeling?</b>
body:
<br />&quot;He was sixteen, and the women had decided his voice was finally deep enough to join in the seed singing.&quot;<br /><br />At what age does a male with the ability (one who will channel even if not trained) to channel. Is it mentioned in the books? <br />The only thing I remember is that the women start channeling earlier than the men.<br />Maybe he has reached the age when he can channel and can therefore take part in the song. Or maybe the deepness of his voice has something to do with his strength in the OP, which, if I'm not mistaken, increases with age (and use).<br /><br />Just a thought


created: 2003-05-23 19:19:06
subject: <b>As usual, I left out something important. Please read</b>
body:
This is what Elyas tells Perrin and Egwene about the Tinker's song:<br /><br /> &quot;That's why they travel,&quot; Elyas said, &quot;or so they say. They're looking for a song. That's what the Mahdi seeks. They say they lost it during the Breaking of the World, and if they can find it again, the paradise of the Age of Legends will return.&quot; He ran his eyes around the camp and snorted. &quot;They don't even know what the song is; they claim thet'll know it when they find it. They don't know how it's supposed to bring paradise, either, but they've neen looking near to three thousand years, ever since the Breaking. I expect they'll be looking until the Wheel stops turning.&quot; TEotW, The Traveling People, HB, p.310.<br /><br /> The Tinker's don't even know what they are looking for. But it has been missing since the Breaking, and will return paradise, and they'll know it when they find it. <br /> <br /> Coincidentally, saidin was tainted at that same time. And surely, the miracles brought about by men and women using the One Power together made that Age a paradise. Now that saidin is clean again, that would certainly afford the oppotunity to return paradise, don't you think.<br /><br /> To the Doktor: It appears it is slightly differebt in the Age of Legends. Coumin was tested at the age of ten, and was found to lack the spark. The ability manifests itself in this age at around age 16 for girls, as per Egwene and Elayne. And around age 18 for men, as per Rand. However, Nynaeve had already chosen out Egwene as her apprentice a year or more before, and according to Moraine, it was because she sensed something in Egwene.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2003-05-23 19:21:06
subject: <b>Maybe there's all the singing because they don't have MP3</b>
body:
People sang a lot more in medieval agricultural societies.  From the point of view of a culture with less electronic entertainment there probably doesn't seem to be anything unusual about the amount of singing people do.  The pole in Emond's field seems to be something like the Maypole, which was a phallic symbol, and a remainder of ancient pagan fertility rites (hence the MAY part-spring time, planting, and sheep having lambs and all that).  The similarity of the Two Rivers Bel Tine celebration to the ancient planting songs might simply be a misunderstood carry-over from patchy AoL memories.  After all, the Two Rivers might still be preserving festivals from Manetheren, which had some memories of the AoL, and since it's been a backwater since the Trolloc Wars, they could still be carrying on a millenia old tradition that people instituted in memeory of something that really helped crops grow in the AoL.  All that aside, I had just assumed that the Tinkers were looking for the crop song as an example of misguided idiocy from poor communication (a major theme of the series, you have to admit.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


created: 2003-05-23 20:09:45
subject: <b>Nice Work!</b>
body:
Congratulations on a job well done, Light in the Night! I have often wondered if there was a unique ability to saidin, comparable to that of a female channelers ability to form links, or sense the potential for channeling the one power by merely being in the presence of an individual. Maybe the &quot;Song of Saidin&quot; gives a clue to the male channelers retort to that famous Aes Sedai saying that runs something like no flame wind cannot put out, and no stone water cannot wear down(I couldnt find the exact quote). It probably has something to do with the old &quot;heart of stone remembering tears, and the soul of fire, love&quot; quote from A Crown Of Swords. Any ideas? In any case, I look forward to seeing your future posts, Light.


created: 2003-05-23 20:54:24
subject: <b>Awesome.</b>
body:
I knew there was something going on with those cords in tEotW, tGH and tDR and I think you just nailed it.  That was real well written as well all in all a very very good job.<br /><br />p.s.  Those song refernces seem so obvious now but while reading I always just took them as adjectives, you have made it seem so obvious I'm wondering just how much else I missed.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">To all americans I say, 5 to 2, Canada wins olympic mens hockey gold 2002!<br /><br />I love Canada for three reasons: Molson, Labatt's and Muskoka!<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-05-23 22:08:15
subject: <b>WOW</b>
body:
That is amazing, I never noticed all those conections to the saidin singing and what not.  I can't say I'm todally behind the idea of it yet, just because when have heard anything about it again.  Then again, maybe Jordan will bring that back, it would be just the thing he would do too.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Lord of the Frying Pan!<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-05-23 23:04:53
subject: <b>Very Good</b>
body:
I agree with your theory. I kinda feel stupid now for not seeing that. This maybe another argument for Aram being able to channel.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Fortune rides like the sun on high<br />with the fox that makes the ravens fly.<br />Luck his soul, the lightning his eye,<br />He snatches the moons from out the sky.&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-05-24 02:09:00
subject: <b>Interesting theory!</b>
body:
Good job, as always, LitN.<br /><br />I look forward to reading your theories.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Miss you Kory.<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /> Trigger  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> Tehanu's honourary Aussie <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />  Taimandred still LIVES... as a proxy<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> Lanfear killed Asmo <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />Aliena's | &gt;  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /> <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-05-24 03:24:36
subject: <b>Well Done!</b>
body:
Well done, Light...<br /><br />but I do have a question... at the point where he sees Coumin's POV, hasn't he already touched saidin? when he 'wishes' bela not to get tired and cause egwene to fall behind when the two rivers folks are leaving the Two Rivers in EotW? I think moiraine definitively stated that that was a use of saidin, tho unconscious... it wouldn't seem to me that being able to hear the sound of saidin would be conscious, so even an unconscious use of saidin should have imbued him with the ability to hear the song of saidin, etc. afterwards... any ideas  to resolve this question would be awesome LitN.<br /><br />Thanks again for another fantastic theory!


created: 2003-05-24 04:48:34
subject: <b>think its just a metaphor</b>
body:
dude, i can see a lot of work went into this theory, but i think you're reading too much into a metaphor RJ used for the channeling process. Plus, a ploint not many people seem to have noticed, there is no Song. The tinkers left the aiel to look for a place where they could sing songs in peace. Over the centuries, this has been changed, just like the wind quote says, into a myhtical holy grail type object.


created: 2003-05-24 07:37:41
subject: <b>I utterly agree with this theory</b>
body:
I think this theory is right.  I have thought along these lines myself, especially about Rand using the Song to Heal the land.  Excellent research.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I love Trillessa</font><p></p>


created: 2003-05-24 09:01:09
subject:
<b>Hey Light In The Night <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /></b>

body:
First of all, an apology to you. You used to send me notes a while ago when you had just had a new theory posted, and unfortunately I often didn&#8217;t comment on them &#8211; seriously, I&#8217;m sorry about that. Hopefully I should be &#8216;active&#8217; again in terms of WoT orientated discussion within the next month (after exams are <i>finally</i> over <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> ) and I&#8217;ll be with you again. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> I&#8217;m pretty confindent this isn&#8217;t the place&#8230; but how&#8217;s it going? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tinfoilhat.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Anyway, onto your theory. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> Before I start actually commenting on the actual content of the theory, I&#8217;d like you to know that this is the first &#8216;serious&#8217; theory that I have clicked &#8216;Add To Favourites&#8217; for&#8230; I commend you for the effort and research that went into this, and thank you for giving us a little more light in the night. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Ok, from what I could tell when reading this, there were basically two separate theories, which you &#8216;entwined&#8217; together at the end, whereby the first acted as evidence for the second. The first section, about how myths and legends and fundamentally &#8216;truth&#8217; are distorted as the ages pass was quite simply brilliant. I loved every minute of it. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />You have a seriously good eye; I never noticed the male/female differences regarding the Aiel, even after having read the series God knows how many times; you certainly have a talent of relating a section of a book to a section of another. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Now onto the Song of <i>Saidin</i>. Although you provide extremely good evidence, I begin to wonder about a &#8216;song of <i>Saidar&#8217;</i>. All of the great &#8216;miracles&#8217; with the One Power in the AoL happened when the Male and Female Aes Sedai were working together, why do you believe that only the males would be needed to heal the land after TG &#8211; do you think they are able to wield such power alone?    <br /><br />Also, unless I am misunderstanding (which seems likely <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> ) there seems some contradiction; you say that this song is not a &#8220;Seed Song&#8221; that heals/protects the land from the Blight, yet you say that the &#8220;Song of <i>Saidin</i>&#8221; will heal the land after TG &#8211; are you mixing them up here, or is it me? Or are all songs part of a Talent that makes &#8216;<i>The</i> Song&#8221;?<br /><br />Anyway, I fundamentally like the idea of Rand having to have cleansed the Taint so that he will be able to here the song of <i>Saidin</i> again. <br /><br />Nice work LitN &#8211; and sorry once again.<br /><br />Kudos to you. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />-D.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">~ <font face="Kristen ITC"> <font color="#1382FF">T</font><font color="#1313FF">h</font><font color="#8213FF">e</font> <font color="#F113FF">A</font><font color="#FF139E">r</font><font color="#FF132F">t</font><font color="#FF6613">f</font><font color="#FFD513">u</font><font color="#BAFF13">l</font> <font color="#4BFF13">D</font><font color="#13FF4B">o</font><font color="#13FFBA">d</font><font color="#13D5FF">g</font><font color="#1366FF">e</font><font color="#2F13FF">r</font> ~</font><br /> <font face="Monotype Corsiva">-The One Who Dodges Art-</font></font><p></p>


created: 2003-05-24 14:34:02
subject: <b>Sing a song of saidin...</b>
body:
Sing a song of Saidin,<br />A pocket full of sung seeds,<br />Four-and-twenty Dai'shain,<br />Served up with mashed swedes,<br />and when the dish was opened,<br />the men began to croon, <br />Wasn't that a dainty dish to set before the Drago-o-on!<br /><br />I know it doesn't rhyme, but hey...<br /><br />Nice theory, anyway.<br /><br />Maybe the seed singing used the &quot;standing flows&quot; that were once used to power Alviarins call-box?<br />We know you didn't have to channel to use most ter'angreal in the age of legends, due to these same standing flows. <br />And channelers would probably have better things to do than &quot;go farming&quot;.


created: 2003-05-24 20:31:08
subject: <b>A few responses</b>
body:
To Cannoli: You hit the bullseye on the first try. Of course the Spring Pole is a phallic symbol, and that is exactly why it is incorporated into these rites of spring, IMO. And, my point of these rites was to show they had an origin, ie., the Age of Legends.<br /><br /> Most cultures even today take there holiday traditions from the past and change them from what they were. Ash Wednesday, Palm Friday, Halloween and even the tradition of a Christmas tree are all examples. <br /><br />To imfunny: A simple answer to a serious question. Jordan tried to keep the identity of who the DR was, a secret, even though most of TEotW was from Rand's pov. To let us see him as the DR too early would have taken away from the book, which was originally a stand-alone novel. Also, those first touchings of saidin are quite different from his conscious uses later, where he is in the void. I took special notice that only his contact with clean saidin from the Eye and then his earliest contact after with tainted saidin brought on this effect. By the time he goes through the glass columns, I believe he has already forgotten this, much like Jaric.<br /><br />To Dodge: I looked and could not find any reference to saidar having this same type of song. I too, thought that there would be. <br /> Actually, I found it rather odd that it was only the male Aiel that sang, until I thought about it like this: They are singing to Mother Earth. If you read my reply to Cannoli, I think it may be something along those lines that Jordan is trying to infer.<br /><br /> As to the last part, I believe that Rand will use his Choedan Kal access key to form a large circle of men and women. I envision most of the people in the world to join in singing too, adding their strength to it, like the Da'shain Aiel in the Age of Legends. Rand's dream showed all those people singing, men and women, but they weren't all singing the same song. The end effect was them all blending together. We all know the most wondrous things were accomplished using both halves of the One Power, and I think this must be the case here as well. <br /> <br /> Simply stated, saidin has been the missing link since the taint. When we saw him cleanse saidin, he used both halves of the Power, although he used them separately. This might be the only way they can be used together, as we are told they work against each other to drive the Wheel. IMO, this separateness may be used something like this: saidin braiding the songs into one harmony, and saidar magnifying the sound. <br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2003-05-24 21:10:27
subject: <b>You have a real knack for piecing things together.</b>
body:
VERY very impressive evidence, and, as always a lot of effort went into this one. I always enjoy logical, well thought out theories. If only everyone could do it like you. <br /><br />Now, I believe that everyone has said what I wanted to say, but I wanted to say that, as per my understanding, the Aiel were not aiel if they became AS. No matter where a person is from, when they become AS, they ARE AS. Therefore, I'm not so sure that Coumin was able to channel. I don't see how else Saidin could be involved in the ceremony if not by the singers (LTT's comments). <br /><br />Anyway, I'll do some more thinking on it and update this if I have any more thoughts.<br /><br />Great work!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2003-05-25 00:24:12
subject: <b>Light, you do theories right</b>
body:
As everyone says, good job on putting theories together. This one all the others.<br /><br />Most people have already hit on any snags in your theory, but they don't seem that critical to the overall idea. I need to go back and read the scene where the Aiel become the Lost Ones/Tinkers, where they decide to go different ways.<br /><br />I don't see any need for there to be a song of saidar. The male and female halves of the Power are different, so there should be things unique to each.<br /><br />Note Someshta was a creature made using the Power. It was the Power flowing through him that the Ogier and Aiel were probably singing with.<br /><br />Also, as RJ has said he's going to end the last scene of WoT with a hook, I doubt that we'll get to see any healing of the land AFTER the Last Battle. My best guess is that this song will resurface as Rand fights the DO (however he may do that I don't know).<br /><br />Note also different places where Rand has had to fight against his identity being ripped away from him. Ishy did it in the end of tDR, and the mirror images he fought in the beginning of tSR also threatened to take away his identity. My guess is that the tune of saidin will return and it will help give Rand strength to fight the DO. My guess is also that the DO will try to rip away Rand's identity.<br /><br />What do you think?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Bob L. Sedai (a.k.a. Luge) <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /><br />Fighting off the Taint - <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tinfoilhat.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" />Thanks given to Burr, the ever-helpful theory critic<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />And to Light in the Night, fellow theorist extraordinaire<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Voted Best Screenname 1 (one) years in a row.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-05-25 00:52:25
subject: <b>Wow lots of work...</b>
body:
I don't have the heart to argue with you when you went through so much work...good job just for going through all of that work.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I am cool, are you? <br /><br />The kicker of the seals <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <br />The flame that burned down Tar Valon <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />My arse is the Amyrlin Seat</font><p></p>


created: 2003-05-25 01:37:48
subject: <b>i disagree</b>
body:
I agree with Raziel on one point: you're reading waaaay to much into a metaphor. Although I digress from Raziel in the fact that I DO believe there is a Song, I just think you are trying to force a theory that doesn't work.<br /><br />Did it ever occur to any of you that the reason why Rand cleansed Saidin was because him and all the other Asha'man were going insane? Cleansing Saidin so that they remain sane is a damn good incentive to do it.<br /><br />Come on guys, seriously, though I commend the author for putting up a really good argument using ample evidence, I really think people went a bit too ballistic with this.<br /><br />For me as a reader, I will think it's the cheeziest stupidest thing if there is a &quot;Song of Saidin.&quot; I'm already close to having stopped reading the series after the last book, and I think the introduction of that would make me put my books away for good (even though 3 of them are signed by the all-powerful RJ himself).


created: 2003-05-25 06:48:47
subject: <b>BRAVO!!!</b>
body:
Excellent theory. The best I've read in quite a long time. You've tied several things together in a most logical way. <br />I'll be interested to see more. And I don't think it was long winded at all but very interesting reading. Keep up the good work.


created: 2003-05-25 07:09:17
subject: <b>About the Aiel Singing</b>
body:
In the theory the boy was tested at 10 for the spark, but he didn't have it.<br />The Spark as stated during the book is the indication of being able to channel without teaching.<br />What if in the Age of Legends the Male Aes Sedai missed male who could be taught, maybe they dont sense a resonance in the test and so we have all these male Aiel (who might be able to be taught but aren't tested again, and the female Aiel well they are sensed by the female Aes Sedai and taken away to train, So no feamles actually sing the Song) So the Daishan (sp?) Aiel are doing so qausi channelling thats being woven in with the rest.<br />Possible??<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" />'Sa sourvaya niende misain ye'-Mat Cauthon<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-05-25 09:20:52
subject: <b>Well done. One important tie in.</b>
body:
Very well documented and thought through theory.  Thanks!<br /><br />You mentioned:<br />&quot;As to the last part, I believe that Rand will use his Choedan Kal access key to form a large circle of men and women. I envision most of the people in the world to join in singing too, adding their strength to it, like the Da'shain Aiel in the Age of Legends. Rand's dream showed all those people singing, men and women, but they weren't all singing the same song. The end effect was them all blending together. We all know the most wondrous things were accomplished using both halves of the One Power, and I think this must be the case here as well. &quot;<br /><br />I would like to expand this to explain why the whole world singing together would work.  It has been stated here and throughout the novels that the Dark One is gaining strength by causing Chaos.  That is why Demandred and co. were ordered to &quot;let the Lord of Chaos rule.&quot;  <br /><br />So, if chaos brings the Dark One strength, wouldn't humanity blending itself together in harmony (the Song of Saidin) weaken the Dark One, or conversely, strenghten the good guys?  The key to all of this would of course be total unity in singing the Song, which we've seen examples of in the Seed Song for instance.  <br /><br />Just a thought!


created: 2003-05-25 13:05:54
subject: <b>Ah, i'm here late</b>
body:
most of what I would have said has already been said.<br /><br />But excellent Job Light.<br /><br />I have been quite ambivalent with this whole TP thing, and then you come in and post something completely original.<br /><br />Let's talk more about what this could mean...<br /><br />If there is a song of saidin, and it is connected to the earth, what is the meaning?<br /><br />Could another piece of evidence be related to the Ogier and to their Longing?<br /><br />What is the overall meaning?  I'm not really sure I know myself, but I think that I agree that it may have something to do with people like the Ogier and the Tinkers helping to heal the land after the series finishes.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ADA- AlannaDawn Anonymous-- helping wotmaniacs recovering from their AlanndaDawn Addictions in a dynamic new 12-step program.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-05-25 18:37:08
subject: <b>Echo</b>
body:
Maybe another reason that the song has been lost is because of the taint's actual prescense. The song lacks that power of saidin to back it because it has been distorted by the taint. The song doesn't echo saidin anymore. It's like when you're tuning an instrument, the right note always rings truer because it matches in with the rest of the notes. The song would be more powerful once saidin was retored to it's original state.<br />We know that the ogier still tree-sing, but their songs are gradually losing their power. Mostly they just make objects from wood. Now that the taint has been removed, maybe the ogier will suddenly find themselves more powerful.<br /><br />An excellent theory, definitly a connection I never thought of before.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /> Zenithstar <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Zogone: one who complains</font><p></p>


created: 2003-05-25 20:56:44
subject: <b>A few more responses</b>
body:
To Doktor Kosmos and Ashaman Liam and any others I missed: I did a little more research on testing for the ability in the Age of Legends. This is what I found:<br /> &quot;Because the ability to learn could appear at any time during an almost ten-year period, candidates were encouraged to test more than once, though few did. For those who had the inborn ability to channel, the choice to avoid retesting would not change anything. They would channel eventually without the test. However, those who had the ability to learn, but did not have the inborn talent, might never be aware of the fact if they stopped testing before trainability manifested itself. For such a person to succeed as a channeler, the spark of ability had to be drawn out and carefully honed by Aes Sedai instructors.&quot; TBWB, HB, p.38.<br /><br /> It was also a great honor to be selected as Aes Sedai:<br /> &quot;The people afforded the most status, though they still had to earn their third name through great individual works, were those whose gifts made them capable of the greatest service: those who could effectively channel the One Power. These men and women were called Aes Sedai, which meant 'servant of all' in the Old Tongue. They were dedicated to using the full extent of their gift for the betterment of their world.&quot; TBWB, HB, p.30<br /><br /> And there is also this:<br /> &quot;The 'servants of all' were themselves apparently served by the Da'shain Aiel. These people were sworn to aq covenant that bound them to serve the Aes Sedai and uphold the 'Way of the Leaf,' a pacifistic code of honor. The exact details and history of this covenant are lost, but we can surmise that each Aiel was pledged in service to a particular Aes Sedai, although it was not unusual for an Aes Sedai to be served by more than one Aiel. Their loyalty to the covenant and their service earned the Da'shain a level of respect second only to that accorded to the Aes Sedai.&quot; TBWB, HB, p32.<br /><br /> I suppose it is always possible a few candidates slipped through the cracks. However, in a near-utopian society, where you could earn the highest respect by becoming Aes Sedai, I would think that most people would not pass up the opportunity to become one, and they didn't miss many possible channelers, either. Also note that it was stated they must be taught to control the ability. We know Rand taught himself some rough control, but, he ended up needing a teacher. Besides that, the sickness one encounters after the first touching is rather serious, and many die. I don't think this kind of sickness would have gone unnoticed in the Age of Legends without them being able to figure out what had caused it.<br /><br />To Raziel and Clean Toe: Of course there is always the possibility Jordan was just using these expressions as a metaphor. Sometimes you must read in-between the lines, and sometimes you have to take the words as they are written. This is what causes debate over these theories. <br /><br /> I do take some exception to Clean Toe's claim that this is a theory that doesn't work though. If you would care to back up that statement with some sort of evidence, I would be more than happy to debate the issues you give in your support. I would also like to remind you that I did in fact state that there was more than one reason that saidin needed to be cleansed. Obviously stopping the insanity caused by the taint was the main reason given by Rand at the time he proposed doing it.<br /><br /> mirtam hit on the crux of the problem. Chaos vs. Harmony. There must be harmony to defeat the DO. That is why this 'song of saidin' is vital to Rand's chances of winning. It was one of the points I was trying to get at, but failed to say straight out.<br /><br /> Some may think it is cheezy, I tend to see it as rather poetic.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2003-05-25 23:04:11
subject: <b>well, not a whole lot to add</b>
body:
I agree with Raziel that The Song that the Tinkers are searching for is a corruption of the original group breaking off ins searchs of songs and a time they were happier.<br /><br />I also agree with Siswai that the song of saidin that Rand hears in the earlier books are just saidin tempting him in the unknown.  Also, for the taint to have caused Rand to not hear the song anymore means that an exceptionally small amount of taint would be all that's required, since he only channeled a few times by that point in tGH, and the one major channeling episode, at the end of tEotW, was with untainted saidin, so I really doubt that the taint is responsible for the lack of the song.  At that point Rand is more familiar with saidin so it's not as tempting to him.<br /><br />I'm pretty certain that the seed singing has nothing to do with the OP, regardless of whatever the BwB says.  The main reason is that seed singing is an amplification of Loial's sung wood, which he has performed in a stedding, and from all evidence OP doesn't exist in a stedding.  I believe that it is a power all it's own.<br /><br />Also, I don't see how singing, of The Song assuming it exists, would be useful, at least not for the Last Battle itself, maybe afterwards.  But if there were any songs that had that kind of power I would think that the Aiel during the AoL would have had a more prominant role in fighting the DO.<br /><br />I don't think that the insane man even comprehended whatever was being sung to him, I don't think it was anything special.  It was however, quite a different reaction than most people's when they saw him coming and that was the puzzle.<br /><br />It's an interesting theory, but I doubt any of it holds up.  But for discussion sake, do you think that now that saidin is clensed Rand will be able to hear the song again, or is the damage done by the taint permanent?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sir Jim<br />Lord of Minutia&#8482;<br />King of WoT MB Posts&#8482;<br /><br />Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-05-26 01:46:15
subject: <b>Re: Jim</b>
body:
I agree with Raziel that The Song that the Tinkers are searching for is a corruption of the original group breaking off ins searchs of songs and a time they were happier.<br /><br /> I agree at least in part. The happier times were when there was no taint on saidin. <br /><br /> I also agree with Siswai that the song of saidin that Rand hears in the earlier books are just saidin tempting him in the unknown. Also, for the taint to have caused Rand to not hear the song anymore means that an exceptionally small amount of taint would be all that's required, since he only channeled a few times by that point in tGH, and the one major channeling episode, at the end of tEotW, was with untainted saidin, so I really doubt that the taint is responsible for the lack of the song. At that point Rand is more familiar with saidin so it's not as tempting to him.<br /><br /> I believe there was at least two significant quotes that at least partly refute this:<br /> &quot;The two cords beat like heartveins in countertime, against each other, the light barely resisting the waves of dark.&quot;<br /> &quot;Saidin sang no more. It was there, that stomach-turning glow, but it held back as if he truly had fought it off. Wonderingly, he let the void vanish.&quot;<br /><br /> First we see the two cords beating in countertime against each other, the light barely resisting the dark. I believe this shows how powerful the DO's power is, as it is working against the pure essence of saidin.<br /><br /> The second quote clearly shows that Rand is already being affected by the taint on saidin, inasmuch as it is already being felt as &quot;stomach-turning&quot;<br /><br /> And then, the last quote, which I believe shows that it really doesn't take that much exposure to the taint to mask the song he used to hear: <br /> &quot;Reluctantly, Rand formed the void. Saidin shone at him, pulled at him. Dimly, he seemed to recall a time when it had sung to him, but now it only drew him, a flower's perfume drawing a bee, a midden's stench drawing a fly.&quot;<br /><br /> I'm pretty certain that the seed singing has nothing to do with the OP, regardless of whatever the BwB says. The main reason is that seed singing is an amplification of Loial's sung wood, which he has performed in a stedding, and from all evidence OP doesn't exist in a stedding. I believe that it is a power all it's own.<br /><br /> &quot;In the Age of Legends, Ogier lived and worked among humans, and traveled widely outside their stedding. They had a special gift for growing things, and worked closely with the Nym. Though unrelated to the One Power, many of them had the ability to affect living things, especially plants, with their songs.These gifted Ogier could cause plants to respond to sound, bending to any desired formation. The songs could also encourage a plant to grow stronger and taller.&quot;<br /><br /> This clearly states the Ogier did not use the One Power. Also, there are several different songs the Ogier use apparently, as Rand refers to Loial's singing in the Mirror World a &quot;Treesong.&quot; This particular song bends wood and shapes it, as shown by Loial making him a quarterstaff.<br /><br /> OTOH, the seed songs were a combination of Ogier and Aiel voices being braided together by the Nym.<br /><br /> Also, I don't see how singing, of The Song assuming it exists, would be useful, at least not for the Last Battle itself, maybe afterwards. But if there were any songs that had that kind of power I would think that the Aiel during the AoL would have had a more prominant role in fighting the DO.<br /><br /> I'm assuming you are refering to the time before the taint here. This is only conjecture on my part. It is entirely possible they didn't fully appreciate what they were up against in terms of sheer power, when it all started. As time went on, it was all battles between armies. Perhaps they never thought about the chaos vs. harmony aspect and it never dawned on them to try something along these lines. Also, the Da'shain Aiel were pacifists, and their covenant would not allow them to participate in any way.<br /><br /> I don't think that the insane man even comprehended whatever was being sung to him, I don't think it was anything special. It was however, quite a different reaction than most people's when they saw him coming and that was the puzzle.<br /><br /> I will agree that he certainly didn't comprehend what was being sung to him. The rest is up to debate as to why. <br /><br /> It's an interesting theory, but I doubt any of it holds up. But for discussion sake, do you think that now that saidin is clensed Rand will be able to hear the song again, or is the damage done by the taint permanent?<br /><br /> I certainly hope that now that it is cleansed, that he will be able to hear the song again. I believe the insanity and rotting part is irreversible, as per Jordan himself, however, I hold out hope that even these will be cured eventually.<br /><br /> &quot;Let the Prince of the Morning sing to the land that green things will grow and the valleys give forth lambs.&quot;<br /><br /><br /><br /> <br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2003-05-26 13:35:57
subject: <b>RE: Light in the Night</b>
body:
I'm not gonna sit here and argue things back and forth, to be honest you still didn't convince me of much.  However, while reading I remembered the end of tEotW, when Loial basically uses a seed song to protect the Green Man's Oak tree.  Loial says something to the effect that the Blight will not take him, which is exactly what the seed song was, and that he could not have done it without some part of the Green Man remaining.  So it seems to me that human voices aren't entirely necessary for seed singing.  Also, to prove that that isn't The Song, the tinkers already know it, Loial taught a few while they were visiting a stedding and claimed they weren't The Song they were searching for, even though it's unlikely that it's changed any since the AoL.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sir Jim<br />Lord of Minutia&#8482;<br />King of WoT MB Posts&#8482;<br /><br />Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-05-27 00:50:42
subject: <b>Great theory</b>
body:
... but I think that you might be reading too much into it, but that's just an opinion.  I really enjoyed reading a well written theory with ample evidence to back it up.  I see where you're going with it, I just think it's too much.<br /><br />The way I read the description of Saidin &quot;singing&quot; to Rand is that it shows a harmony he has with Saidin, which is a manifestation of his ability to channel.  Maybe this is why the test Taim shows Rand for finding out if a man can channel is described as &quot;detecting a resonance&quot; (LoC, p.110 (PB)).  Resonance, singing, harmony: all musical/audio terms, maybe realting to your theory of the Song of Saidin, maybe just indicators of a relationship between male channelers and Saidin.  Either way I look forward to finding out if your theory is right or not.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Of course, that's just my opinion.  I could be wrong.<br /><br />&quot;Life is like WoT... You never know when it's gonna end.&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2003-05-27 01:12:14
subject: <b>Re: Jim</b>
body:
I was not intending to debate back and forth either. I was just defending my theory with the sources I drew it from. Obviously you will not be swayed, so we can at least agree to disagree on this issue as we have on others.<br /><br /> And I would also like to point to this:<br /> &quot;Before the oak, Loial knelt, closing his eyes and stretching out his arms. The tufts on his ears stood straight as he lifted his face to the sky. And he sang.<br /> Rand could not say if there were words, or if it was pure song. In that rumbling voice it was as if the earth sang.&quot;<br /><br /> And further down the page is this:<br /> &quot;I've never sung so hard before. I could not have done it if something of Treebrother was not still there. My Treesongs do not have his power.&quot; TEotW,The Wheel Turns, HB, p.651.<br /><br /> The first point I would like to make was that Treebrother was not a seed, he was already transformed into an oak tree. Loial also states it is a Treesong, not a seed song.<br /><br /> The other point I believe Loial is refering to, about something of Treebrother still being there, was the Nym's ability to use the One Power, which amplified his song, causing it to work better, IMO.<br /><br /> I am only using the information Jordan has provided us with in all of his books. I chose not to ignore what he has put forth in the BWB, as it was written by him, and full of useful information. Since it is stated that the One Power was used in seed-singing, as well as humans, I will stand by that until Jordan himself refutes it.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2003-05-27 13:41:26
subject: <b>Song of the Aiel</b>
body:
Very good theory.  I also believe that the Song will have a prominent role in the last battle.  Certainly, in the glossary to TEotW, it is noted that the tinkers are able to fix things such that they're better than new, or something to that effect.  That Fel guy who got offed by the gholam- didn't he speculate that since time is cyclical, at some point the Dark One's prison had to be made whole again (unless the Creator designed the prison with a Bore already in it).  The patch job by Lews Therin and his gang would need to be made better.  I think the Aiel's song could do that in some way.<br /><br />Has it been considered that the notion that only a &quot;remnant of a remnant&quot; of the Aiel surviving the last battle does not refer to the NUMBER of Aiel?  Maybe the remnant will be the forgotten peaceful past where they would sing to trees.  Maybe the Dark One goes out with a whimper and the next age demands its populance beats its spears into pruning hooks.  Too bad Rand and his Aiel singing the DO back into prison is a bit of an anticlimax.<br /><br />GF2


created: 2003-05-27 15:27:24
subject: <b>Perrin and Egwene post-TG</b>
body:
I thoroughly enjoyed your theory Light in the Night - thank you.<br /><br />  I always thought that the Tinker's Song would be important for both Perrin and Egwene, probably something about them working together post-Last Battle.  We were introduced to the Tinkers and the Song with Elyas, Perrin and Egwene together.  I don't think that this was coincidence by RJ - especially if you are right about the Song being so important for TG.<br /><br />  Someone mentioned healing the land with the Song, however mentioned it as though Rand would do the healing.  I agree with the theories constructing Perrin as a 'builder' archetype and I bet he will work with Egwene to do a lot of land-healing, not Rand.<br /><br />  I also wonder if Nym will be created again.  I bet yes.  This would imply Perrin, Egwene and Ashaman working together too - lead by Narishma?


created: 2003-05-27 15:55:25
subject: <b>Untrained Aiel</b>
body:
A little more regarding the Aiel and training to be Aes Sedai.  <br /><br />In Rhuidean, Rand sees the ancestor who was the servant to Mierin (Lanfear).  Although I don't have the book in front of me, his POV states the following:<br />* He had been tested, but his potential was deemed to be unworthy of training.<br /><br />That means that the Aes Sedai took only those who showed a) the spark or b) great potential.  Those of lesser potential were left to their own devices.  This means that some (if not many) of the male Aiel participating in the seed singing had the ability to touch the source - even if it was untrained.  This idea fits sugly into LITN's great theory.<br /><br />Regarding the Ogier in the seed singing:  It was the Nym, Someshta, a construct of the One Power, who melded the Aiel and Ogier songs.  Even though Loial was able to save Someshta's sapling from the blight, even he admits that it was the lingering power from the Nym that made it possible.  I don't think it's too far of a stretch to say that AOL Aes Sedai could have created the Nym for the specific purpose of amplifying the Ogier powers and the untrained powers of the male Aiel.<br /><br />I think it's a well though out theory.  Thanks for bringing some creative thinking back to the TP!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;It is a medium of entertainment which permits millions of people to listen to the same joke at the same time, and yet remain lonesome.&quot;<br /><br />TS Eliot regarding television</font><p></p>


created: 2003-05-27 22:38:30
subject: <b>I can't really put up an argument</b>
body:
Light,<br /><br />I only have a few of the books with me, I don't know where the rest went off too. Also, I don't have the big white book so I can't even look up most of these quotes to put them in context, so I'll just relent and temporarily &quot;accept&quot; your theory until, like all others, a better explanation comes along.<br />Cheers.


created: 2003-05-28 10:56:47
subject: <b>A few final responses</b>
body:
To Matrimony: I didn't mean to ignore your post, I just wanted to give it a little more thought. Jordan says in TSR, that Fire and Earth were the strongest in men, while Air and Water  were likewise in women, Spirit being about equal. I definitely think there is a tie-in here. I tend to see it as the men being the fathers(fertilizers);Earth. And the women as nurturers;Air and Water. <br /> That may be taking it too far, but I believe it might be what he intended, just the same.<br /><br /> To Clean Toe: I am glad I could sway you a little bit. When I write a theory, that is not my intention. Mostly, I see something that caught my eye and I get an inspiration. My biggest hope is that it might give someone else new insight and inspire them to a new theory as well.<br /><br /> To everyone else: Thanks for taking the time to respond. I hope you all enjoyed it, even if you didn't agree. Perhaps it will at least give us something to ponder over a little bit more.<br /><br /> On a side note: This was originally intended to go along with a group of theories in conjunction with Green Gaidin, Columbo and Matrimony Cauthon. I jumped the gun, but hopefully we will have several more good theories to read here soon. Maybe I'll have time to get another one ready by the time their's are.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2003-05-28 16:32:36
subject: <b>Theories</b>
body:
A theory should be able to explain new evidence if it is a valid theory. LitN does an excellent job incorporating lots of evidence.<br />     I think, then, that his theory is sound, so far, as it helps explain many things. Although RJ may just be using &quot;singing&quot; metaphorically, consider that Moiraine (maybe it was Verin?) says, &quot;The blood of Manetehren sings.&quot; Of course, this is in reference to the find of several strong channelers in Emond's Field (and evidence of previous strong channelers - Nynaeve's predecessor was born w/the spark, but was one of the unlucky 3/4 who dies without proper training). Maybe she's not speaking metaphorically. <br />     Matriony Cauthon brings up Ogier Longing. I have always thought that it was related to the taint. The &quot;Big Bummer&quot; of seeing a world they helped to create utterly destroyed might translate into heavy depression, but I think that being able to alter the natural world with &quot;singing&quot; links them in some way to the Source. They don't use it, but since the taint beats counter to saidin, the universe is no longer in &quot;harmony.&quot; There are Ogier currently outside the steading besids Loial (3 looking for Loial, in fact), and a scene or two from their POV might help to confirm this<br />     This also might explain why Aiel males no longer sing. Before the splitting off of the Tuathan, it was known that the &quot;Song&quot; was lost. The singing resonated with &quot;saidin&quot;, and with the taint on saidin, could no longer resonate. Therefore, the &quot;Song&quot; was not actually &quot;lost&quot;, but the Aiel could no longer get their singing to resonate, so it was as good as lost. Maybe the old seed-singing song resonates in a bad way with the taint? I'm stretching it a bit, but killing used to resonate in a bad way w/Aiel (and still does), so the only time the maes sing is in  battle. We need to see someone try to &quot;Sing&quot; and see what happens. <br />     Ah, well.....just my two-cents' worth. Good work, LitN!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Awesome June Jones...I'm glad you took your 1-11 season to another WAC - expatriot. You truly are the most over-paid Division I coach. Go Bows!</font><p></p>


created: 2003-05-28 19:43:50
subject: <b>RE: Joe al Holz</b>
body:
An excellent post. You said a lot of what I believe is the case here. Great insight on your part about the songs not resonating.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2003-05-28 22:54:20
subject: <b>Hearing the Song?</b>
body:
Does it ever say in the book that Rand HEARD the song?  Specifically saying he could hear it would definately say that it isn't a metaphor.  <br /><br />&quot;he could feel it-and the thought came that if he sang the song saidin sang, that huge stone face would open its mouth and sing with him. With him and with saidin. All one.&quot;<br />This quote from the theory seems to say that it isn't a metaphor, but all the other quotes seem more like a metaphor than an actual song.<br /><br />Here is the opinion of one casual WoT reader.  Take it or leave it <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Signed with the Sign that sells!</font><p></p>


created: 2003-05-30 05:39:28
subject: <b>Finally</b>
body:
A nice long well-supported and well-quoted theory about something that both ties up past detail and shapes our thinking about the future of the series! <br /><br />If I hadn't seen it, I wouldn't have believed it.<br /><br />I think the standards are going back up, and hopefully this theory ushers in the death of theories written in 133+speak about Taimandred or Mat's eye or who everyone will marry.<br /><br />I don't even care if it's right or not. It's a good example of a theory, and hopefully more like it appear on the site.


created: 2003-06-05 15:57:16
subject: <b>Excellent theory!!!</b>
body:
Congratulations, that was one of the most comprehensive theories i've ever come across. You've certainly convinced me of the importance of the Song and its connection with saidin. I actually feel kind of stupid not being able to see these things myself till they are ponted out to me, thats why this theory post and postulates like yours are invaluable.<br /><br />By the way what big white book? Whats the full title? I havent got that!!!? Anyone, am I missing something here?


created: 2003-06-07 16:01:02
subject: <b>Big white book with very bad pictures</b>
body:
Robert Jordan and Teresa Patterson:<br />The World of Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time<br />includes a lot of info but beware pictures<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br />


created: 2003-06-19 10:43:09
subject: <b>tie ins to a other examples.</b>
body:
Interesting theory.  I have thought about this for some time and thought it mere coinidence that there were many singing allusions.  However, there is a game that uses song to defeat the end of the world.  That game is Final Fantasy X.  <br />  This game parallels WOT, or vice-versa, however way you want to look at it.  There are parallel universes, where the antagonist, Sin, is a huge thing that gets reborn every 1000 years.  Hate makes it stronger, fighting it doesnt help. Sin actually gets reborn by the person who is destined to fight it.  He takes over Sin and the cycle repeats itself.  (sort of like Matrix: Reloaded).<br />  Another tie to movies is the Fifth Element.  The huge evil sphere gets stronger when it is being attacked, knows everything, and can only be destroyed with one thing:  using the elements.  Using the four elements is a given, yet the fifth, spirit, must want to be used, must need a reason.  In the end, it was love that destroyed evil.<br />  This resembles yin and yang and thus, saidin/saidar, good/evil, WOT.  each world is powerful, but not as powerful as when they are together.  The entire premise of WOT and what RJ is apparently trying to do is show balance.  Nothing can be optimal without balance.  Why else can only 13 females be linked without a male?  Why else is the flame of Tar Valon the Yin?  Why are the seals weakening? Why were both male and females present at the singing examples that Light gave?  <br />  Simply because of the lack of balance.<br />  The other connection to FFX is the singing, as mentioned.  In order to stop the crash, everyone on the entire planet has to sing the same song at the same time to give the protagonists a chance, giving them more power. ( on a side note, if you want to listen to it, search for it.  I believe its called something like Voice of Gaia).  in order to fight Sin, the people of Gaia (earth) had to sing.  Unity is order and order fights Chaos.<br />  Lastly, Because movies and games such as these have been created with very similar plotlines, I have a suspicion to believe the RJ has found the same idea from somewhere else.


created: 2003-06-20 11:34:33
subject: <b>Actually....</b>
body:
Those movies are actually drawing on various interpretations of modern Wicca... RJ draws heavily on this concept. Wicca itself draws off of many other religions and practices... one of the concepts in wicca is the belief that the entire universe is ruled/created/held together by an energy source. It has both a male and female part, virtually indentical in nature to what RJ describes as Saidar and Saidin... what i think is interesting to note is that in Wicca, it is the male half that is responsible for the creation of new life... engendering the new spark so to speak... the mother goddess is responsible for nurturing the new life, but it is the male half that produces the seed... Wicca emphasises the different roles and relationships between male and female energies. The sun is a methaphor for the male, the moon a metaphor for the female.... there are a hundred examples which you could find on any wiccan website.... the point is that in many wiccan stories, the male half &quot;sings&quot; or seduces the female half so that she can be impregnated.... The concept of the male energy seducing and impregnating the female half is very important... especially in the Celtic religions that Wiccan most strongly draws from....<br /><br /><br />anyway... this seems even more important when you recognize how saidin is being used in the age of legends.... Causing seeds to break forth... Saidin acts as the seeding force, and is encouraged by the woman. It says that in the AOL the men were the singers. <br /><br />Since saidin was tainted... aside from madness... one of the greatest blows to the world, was the abscence of &quot;new&quot; life or new germination. There was nothing new being produced. Saidar can only nuture while it was the responsibility of the Saidin to inseminate (to say it explicitly). <br /><br />I think i should also point out tht RJ's whole system of channeling is really just a commercialized version of Wicca. The whole earth water wind fire spirit thing, that gets put into movies like FFX and the Fifth Element and is a development of wicca... (modern wicca of course adopted these beliefs from several other religions). <br /><br />The point is that BOTH energies are neccessary. Without the two working together, nothing works right. If you want an insight into the system RJ is using, I would STRONGLY suggest looking at wiccan beliefs, you will find them VERY similar (except RJ's world is just a more Commercialized/Action oriented version that sells books better<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bela.gif" border="0" /> is the creator. <br /><br />&quot;I have always been myself, even when I was ill. Now, however, I seem myself. I have remembered how to seem.&quot;<br />-King George III, The Madness of King George</font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-10 01:20:47
subject: <b>yay, 50</b>
body:
yippee, i have the honor of being the fiftieth comment of this theory.......anyways, i really think u must've put a LOT of thought into this.  i cant think of ne flaws, but its a big theory.  i am impresses by it, and i hope u make come up with more.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" />Nynaeves fellow braid tugger<br />Sitter of the tie dye tower<br />Tulleel Sedai of the Teal ajah<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />&quot;The wheel weaves as the wheel wills, but the will of the wheel is really what I am willing it to weave,&quot;<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-02-29 21:07:13
subject: <b>No Spark</b>
body:
The Aes Sedai passed over the young men when they didn't have the spark.  This doesn't mean they couldn't learn.  Perhaps some of the men can learn to channel, and by Singing they can use the Power in some way.  Kind of like how now Aes Sedai have to actually make a throwing motion to send balls of fire about.  Also kinda like Nynaeve's block.  The only way the can tap the Power is by Singing.  Perhaps it's not all the Ogier and Nym doing the Power work, perhaps some of the Aiel are too.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/avi.gif" border="0" />~Skylark~<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/avi.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /> May you always find water and shade. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rand.gif" border="0" /> I follow the Car'a'carn <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rand.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-02-22 17:19:20
subject: <b>HAH</b>
body:
this is quite funny. i was just thinking. &quot;I wonder if somehow the Song of Saidin and the Song of the tinkers are related?&quot; i came here to do a bit of research on the song. well, thanks for writing this, now i dont have to!<br /><br />now for other comments:<br /><br />this has been said before, but i must wonder about a song of Saidar.<br /><br />this is probably unrelated and just my mind mixing it up, but the ancient aiel were called the Da'shain Aiel, correct? i thought i remembered something else (something to do with Lan?) called Dai'shan. a movement of the &quot;I&quot;.  probably not, you should ignore this paragraph.<br /><br />on regards of the Saidin song, wouldn't Asmodean have said something about it when he was teaching Rand? you thought he would have at least mentioned it. being protected from the taint, he might never have even known that it was gone. or, of course, being a forsaken, he just might of chosen not to tell rand.<br /><br /><br />on the most part, however, very, very good!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">-Sabin<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2006-07-30 13:06:56
subject: <b>a little later</b>
body:
LitN, again, you do a superb job.<br /><br />However, I don't think that this is correct. A lot of your evidence comes from the early books, where RJ may have been getting started. Also, some of his writing, to use your own words, may simply be 'poetic' and have no real ties to the actual series and its foreshadowing.<br /><br />Actually, I do find some merit to the song of saidin, though perhaps in a different way. For the Tinkers' Song, the one that will be found again, the song of saidin, if found, will probably be used AFTER the last battle, to restore the broken world. The DR will break the world, and Rand hates that fact. Maybe afterward, if he can, he'll bring about a singing of the song of saidin in order to grow back some of the destruction.<br /><br />I don't believe that the song will be used for any confrontation with evil, since, as many have pointed out and you agree, there is no song of saidar. For there to be any real action points, both halves of the power must be used. At no point is there any reference for singing being used as a weapon. Maybe we're just biased in our perspective. Isn't it possible that the singing of the male half of the power refers to someting beautiful, not martial? When Rand hears the choedan kal, he might hear a universal voice, not just something to fight with. AS oaths talk about not using the power to make weapons or to hurt people- only evil (like Trollocs,etc.). Trollocs didn't exist until the war of power, soon followed by the breaking, when the song was lost. Even though the OP was abused and used to harm, I don't think that the song will be mangled in that way. By its nature, it cannot be used to fight at the end. I think it will be used for reconstruction after the end.


created: 2003-05-28 01:45:52
subject: <b>Umm sure</b>
body:
What was the theory there. It just seemed like this theory is basically &quot;the song of saidin&quot; with some more possible implications, it seemed more like a blackboard post than a theory. <br />


created: 2003-05-28 05:03:42
subject: <b>I liked your theory</b>
body:
<br />Small point:<br />As Jim pointed out to me, Sheriam tells um.. Egwene et al. that it is only channelers who are susceptible to the Myrdraal ceremony.<br /><br />I think Semirhage describes the Halfmen as &quot;filters&quot; for thirteen Channelers channeling &quot;through them&quot;. I paraphrase, as I can't remember the exact quote.<br /><br />I like the idea that the bestial nature of the Lurks is the basis of their OP sensing.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Gratch was Richard's little bitch.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-05-28 09:41:37
subject: <b>Interesting</b>
body:
There's some very good points thrown in here. There's a belief among some in the world that music exists in the world without us, and that we have simply leanred how to maniuplate it and draw it out, much like a channeler learns to manipulate the One Power, the OP would be there if there were no channelers, we just wouldn't know of it. Taking this theory into account, it makes sense in a way that too inherent natural forces would be able to work together when properly manipulated(Music and the OP). The idea of the &quot;song of saidin&quot; seems to suggest to me that music flows out of saidin.<br /><br />Now let me stop and make a brief point about proven reality, so this doesn't get too far theoretical. All living things generate a sort of energy field around them(no, not the force). This is a field of electromagnetic energy that radiates out in almsot an aura around every person.<br /><br />Now consdier music as a force of nature, and saidin also gives off this force, pooling it with all the other music in the world. That would mean music connects back to the power of saidin. What if, certain singing hits back upon the music attached to Saidin, perhaps even that saidin is carried along in truth? Then, although the person who elarned to sing couldn't touch the soruce or manipulate it, they could carry saidin forth on the waves of their music, for someone who CAN utilize the OP, such as the Nym, to manipulate and to 'weave' into the seed-singing.<br /><br />Don't quite beleive me? Look at Ogier, who still remember some of thsoe old songs. they can make plants grow, can make trees surrender a bit of themselves. This seems to indicate that at the very least, music is connected deeply with life itself. Also Ogier treesingers obviosuly msut be able to eprform inside their stedding. Thye thing to rememebr is that Robert Jordan uses the idea of everything being a part of the Great Pattern, that means everything is woven togteher, there is no such thing as something not connected to everything else.


created: 2003-05-28 10:46:39
subject: <b>Myrdraal singing?</b>
body:
I do like the idea!! I think the first part is a good addition, but I could not understand from the last part what your conclusions are, it was all so fuzzy.


created: 2003-05-28 11:18:17
subject: <b>well, true..</b>
body:
eh, perhaps it is a bit half-baked..<br /><br />i think what i'm trying to get at is the concept of &quot;living ter'angreal,&quot; allowing that the musical nature of the OP is crucial to that concept.<br /><br />based on that, i believe that looking at the OP in terms of music may be the most effective way to understand and utilize it.<br /><br />i like the idea that music is a natural force independent of humanity, and somehow connected to the OP - i think that the fact that cropsingers had to have voices in a certain low register supports that.<br /><br />however cool the song of a myrddraal would be, that's merely conjecture on my part <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> and myrddraal acting as filters would make more sense to me. i hope we can see someone turned to the shadow soon - it would shed light on a whole slew of questions of mine.<br /><br />any musicians here who know anything about overtones? i think that may be the reason why cropsingers had to have deep voices, but i don't know enough to be sure why that would matter..<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>&quot;Those who beat their swords into plowshares will plow for those who don't.&quot; - Thomas Jefferson</i><br /><br /> PSUCOM Class of '09</font><p></p>


created: 2003-05-28 11:19:18
subject: <b>genetics again</b>
body:
What makes Aiel so special at singing?  Is this more evidence of genetic engineering?  Possible.  Guess Aiel didn't often marry non-Aiel, in order to keep the bloodlines pure, but there must have been enough that inbreeding didn't occur.  Did the Aiel choose to be so engineered?  Hmmm, Jordan isn't a biologist, but if Aiel are special human angreal, then perhaps he decided genetics would be able to explain it all.  Those Age of Myth/Age of Legend folks sure were techno-savvy.  Wonder if they had cloning, cell phones, and digital watches?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Live as if you were living for the second time and had acted as wrongly the first time as you are about to act now.  -VF</font><p></p>


created: 2003-05-28 11:26:27
subject: <b>Of course I like it</b>
body:
I'm flattered, but also glad that someone could expand out into a new theory off of my own. <br /><br /> One thing that I believe you lightly touched on, which I chose not to go into; the possibility the Aiel were genetically altered.<br /> We know they had the ability to do such things in the AoL, and many things about them suggest this might be true; hair coloring, their height, as well as their eye coloring. If they were a 'specially bred' race, this might have been what brought about the covenant they swore to uphold. <br /><br /> Just a thought.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2003-05-28 11:43:53
subject: <b>genetics</b>
body:
Light in the Night: thanks for the inspiration <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />personally, i think the genetics question is a chicken-and-egg proposition. <br /><br />the da'shain aiel <u>were</u> certainly different. <br />-were they purposefully genetically engineered? it is entirely possible. <br />or, <br />-were they discovered to have certain abnormal qualities? it happened with the halfmen, they have all kinds of weird abilities. <br /><br />we're never given a clear history of the da'shain, other than their role in the AOL and their odyssey during and after the breaking, so it's hard to say..<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>&quot;Those who beat their swords into plowshares will plow for those who don't.&quot; - Thomas Jefferson</i><br /><br /> PSUCOM Class of '09</font><p></p>


created: 2003-05-28 13:36:17
subject: <b>Some good ideas...</b>
body:
but I strongly disagree with the passage about the Myrddraal! <br /><br />In my opinion the turning of people to the Shadow can only be explained by the Power of the Shadow, the True Power. <br /><br />Myrddraal are used in the 13+13 circle because they are beings corrupted by the TP; the TP is a part of them. Somehow through the channeling a part of this TP can influence the victim and turn him to the Shadow. <br /><br />The TP also explains the strange abilities of the Myrddraal, e.g. to walk in the shadows, and why Aginor could not find the reason of the shadowwalking. The Myrddraal use the TP naturally, without knowing or thinking about it. <br />Only Shaidar Haran seems to be different and able to use the TP on his will.<br /><br />Furthermore I believe that the TP is the reason why the Fades have no eyes. Somehow the TP destroys eyes as we see on Ishamael in the end of TDR.<br /><br /><br />Anyway, I want to add that the Draghkar are also corrupted humans who can use their voice in a song to draw their victim to them so that they can take a person's soul with a kiss. Maybe these abilities are also a result of the One Power. <br />Or the Draghkar were once people who had the Voice and became corrupted. But that's just a thought... <br />


created: 2003-05-28 14:16:07
subject: <b>Living ter-angreal...like gholam?</b>
body:
I like your thoughts about ter'angreal.  If we think of them as tuning forks which resonate in response to precise conditions, the many kinds and uses of ter'angreals make sense.<br /><br />Taking this logic a bit further, this could explain Mat's medallion.  'Aligning the matrices' is something like superpositioning phases.  Of course, you could do the opposite and make the phases cancel each other out by 'Opposing the matrices', or something like that.  Your theory sheds quite a bit of light on how that medallion might work - by canceling out the weaves instead of amplifying them.<br /><br />Taking this even a bit further, 'living ter'angreal' melds well with the hot topic of the gholam.  If living things can amplify, or enhance, weaves as Light in the Night describes the Aiel assisting Nym and Ogier in seed singing in his theory &quot;Song of Saidin&quot;, this goes a long way toward explaining the Gholam as well.  They are able to suppress, or cancel, weaves like the medallion and perhaps this is how.


created: 2003-05-28 14:33:32
subject: <b>in reply</b>
body:
Etzel:  I hadn't thought about the myrddraal being TP users - that fits very well, especially the part about their eyes. creepy.. i disagree with your point about the draghkar, tho. the BWB says that draghkar were specifically created and endowed with their abilities, like the trollocs or gholam. also, only the Aiel had the Voice, and i doubt that few, if any draghkar could have been made by corrupting Aiel.<br />still, there is their song.. i guess that if a purely metaphysical force like the OP can be affected by sound and song, then the mind, a purely metaphysical entity, can as well. still, you may be right.<br /><br />Molec:  perhaps the medallion and the gholam have some kind of white-noise effect, canceling out all frequencies of the OP equally. that would explain the &quot;vanishing flows&quot; phenomenon.<br /><br />bringing up the medallion and the gholam, i think, inevitably forces a comparison with cuendillar - how do you think that fits in?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>&quot;Those who beat their swords into plowshares will plow for those who don't.&quot; - Thomas Jefferson</i><br /><br /> PSUCOM Class of '09</font><p></p>


created: 2003-05-28 15:58:53
subject: <b>Well...</b>
body:
I love it, mainly because I get the mental picture of 13 Myrdrraal singing showtunes. It's hilarious.<br /><br />Pretty good theory, might have worked better had it been a blackboard post, but it had some nice ideas in it.


created: 2003-05-28 23:06:31
subject: <b>Not bad.</b>
body:
I think some of the people here are right about it being more of a blackboard post, but it seems to require alot of attention. First off, only people who can channel can be turned against their will. <br />I was thinking about what the person talking about the TP and the fades. Also think about the fades in the 13+13 turning circle, and the fact that the TP seems to be the opposite of the OP. Using the fades as filters could be like the Aiel and the song (and thinking about the post about everthing having an energy that reverberates off each other), but opposite. Instead of affecting the weaves like the &quot;song of saidin&quot; theory was talking about, maybe the fades do the opposite and silence the song out of the weaves (can male channelers and the Song turn people back? hmmm). Kind of like the way wind doesn't ripple a fades cloak. An anti-Song. Just a thought.<br />Plus the theory was asking who will teach them to sing. Min told Rand that Cadsuanne will teach him and the Asha'man something. They wont like. Don't know how RJ would pull this off, and how it relates to laughter and tears, but it's just another thought i figured i'd throw out there to for you to chew on.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Fortune rides like the sun on high<br />with the fox that makes the ravens fly.<br />Luck his soul, the lightning his eye,<br />He snatches the moons from out the sky.&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-05-29 10:02:07
subject: <b>Well Aiel are..</b>
body:
They are taller than the others in Randland.  I would guess they are more athletically gifted than others because look what they have to survive in the Aiel waste.  Also think about only few can match the aiel  Rand is tall, and reminds all in TEOTW of an Aiel.   I think that in AOL that they could like has been brought-up &quot;align the matrix&quot; where the matrix is the DNA.  It just makes some sense. Also, they swore not to bare arms and be a peaceful race. Is this a control issue for the Aes Sedai that made them? Good thought and great theory.  <br /><br />Music is everywhere and we are blessed to harness some of its beauty.  Just my two cents.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Rabid Wolfbrother <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><br />You know..... the one foaming at the mouth for the next book. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br />You know..... the one who thinks Aes Sedai smell funny.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/frown.gif" border="0" /><br />You know..... the one who hunts Whitecloaks.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angry.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-05-29 13:27:01
subject: <b>who has the Voice &amp; genetic engineering</b>
body:
I've seen several comments on the blackboard here claiming that ONLY the Aiel have the Voice. This, I believe, is inherently untrue. <br /><br />Look back at the prologue to tEotW. Lews Therin sees Elan Morin and (paraphrasing) says: &quot;Ah, a guest. Do you have the Voice?&quot;<br /><br />Now we know that back in the AoL people could recognize an Aiel quite easily by their cadinsor and the cut of their hair (I do NOT include the red hair or light eye color because that only represents SOME of the Aiel; don't forget that the Tuatha'an are in fact Aiel as well, and they tend to have dark hair and eyes). <br /><br />We also know that Elan Morin was not an Aiel (and thus would not have been dressed/groomed as one). Yet LTT asks him if he has the Voice. <br /><br />That causes me to believe that the Voice was not limited to Aiel alone.<br /><br />Now, someone has brought up the interesting possibility that the Aiel were genetically modified (GM). This made me think that perhaps indeed they were GM humans, maybe at one time used as warriors in the Age before the AoL. But then, they were defeated and made to follow the Covenant (aka the Way of the Leaf) as a way of restitution. Just a possibility...<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">--imlad</font><p></p>


created: 2003-05-29 14:40:34
subject: <b>not necessarily..</b>
body:
it is true that LTT would probably recognize an Aiel. but in that vein, wouldn't he have also recognized Elan Morin??<br /><br />his comments do seem to suggest that anyone can have the Voice, though. odd.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>&quot;Those who beat their swords into plowshares will plow for those who don't.&quot; - Thomas Jefferson</i><br /><br /> PSUCOM Class of '09</font><p></p>


created: 2003-05-29 20:35:49
subject: <b>Good, but</b>
body:
It's original but it seems like most of it is just based on guessing.  And some of the connections between tuning an instrument and tuning a ter'angreal arn't really all that correct.  You're making it sound more like a funnel thats in the right shape then a string that's pulled tight.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">In religion and politics people's beliefs and convictions are in almost every case gotten at second-hand, and without examination.  -- Mark Twain</font><p></p>


created: 2003-05-29 23:26:07
subject: <b>I don't know</b>
body:
It sounds very reasonable, but I think I must have missed something.  Whare did you get all the info. on the AOL(is there like a book I missed or something?)? <br /><br />vvvvvvvv<br />&gt;-------&lt;<br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <br />&gt;-------&lt; Bosco the Banana does a jigg! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br />^^^^^^^^<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">super Pyro<br />First Aiel Wolfbrother<br />I live for death<br />There can be no happiness without sadness<br />No peace without disorder<br />No light without darkness<br />There can be no good without evil<br />I am the evil that makes the good possible <br />So you owe me big time<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-05-30 05:14:57
subject: <b>info</b>
body:
i think i added citations for my info, but in case i missed that, my info on cropsinging came from the big white book and TSR, primarily. don't remember the rest off the top of my head.. check out 'song of saidin', it's pretty clear from that theory.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>&quot;Those who beat their swords into plowshares will plow for those who don't.&quot; - Thomas Jefferson</i><br /><br /> PSUCOM Class of '09</font><p></p>


created: 2003-05-30 18:28:15
subject: <b>Amusing</b>
body:
Thirteen Myrddraal singing: We're off to see the wizard...<br /><br />I'm to lazy to write a theory of my own, so this is just a thought. The Salidar AS can make cuendillar. Why haven't they made cuendillar armour?<br />This is of course way off topic, but I know you will forgive me.


created: 2003-05-31 16:49:55
subject: <b>Cuendillar armour</b>
body:
Because Egwene is the only person who can make Cuendillar at more than a snail's pace, she's too busy, and RJ hasn't thought of it. Someone write him.


created: 2003-06-01 09:02:23
subject: <b>Music, hmmm. it explains a lot...</b>
body:
You know, I've always thought of the One Power as being kind of related to music.  I'm in Choir, and when your singing in a group, you kind of have to surrender to the lead singer, in order for everything to sound right, you also have to figure out how to make everything blend, but anyway, I'm getting off subject, this theory opens up a lot of possibilies.<br /><br />Oh, and by the way, Cuendillar Armor is impossible, any kind of armor they made would freeze up into one solid piece, which wouldn't be able to move.  They'd have to have the armor fitted tight against their body, like freakin leather vest tight, and then have it turned into cuendillar.  And then, they'd either never get out of it, or turn into cuendillar themselves.<br /><br />Now, cuendillar swords and shields, maybe helmets, those have possiblilities, heh heh heh...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Samshaidar Mhael<br />The Leader of the Destroyers of Shadow <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-blue.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-red.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/borg.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-green.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-purple.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />I am immortal, I have inside me blood of kings <br />I have no rival, no man can be my equal<br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-06-01 18:43:53
subject: <b>But to continue the music metaphor...</b>
body:
... do the basses have to fight the choirmaster to make music? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />


created: 2003-06-01 19:08:14
subject: <b>Spark?! come again...?</b>
body:
&quot;This was what he had been born for, this song and the other seed songs. He did not regret the fact that the Aes Sedai had passed him over at ten, saying he lacked the spark. To have been trained as Aes Sedai would have been wondrous, but surely no more so than this moment.&quot;<br /><br />i will treat theis as a direct quote instead of making sure but if it is i am wondeing why every body has over looked it. &quot;saying he lacked the spark&quot; it says in the BWB that in the AOL 1-2% of the world was Aes Sedai and that most of them didnot follow jobs that required their ability to channel. if they saw no need for channelers would the even teach those who would never need to learn? would they only allow those children with the spark to learn and become Aes Sedai and pass over the far greater numbers of the popultion who can learn to channel. if they then glean from them only those who eventualy develop talents that are productive such as having the Voice, they could breed them to geather to have a stronger, more potent stock from which channelers could come from.<br /><br />percentages again<br /><br />with the seafolk every one lives on the ships and every ship has a wind finder to weave the winds, correct? the numbers on the ships range from around 30 crew ships to say 150 on the ship for a goodly range. this in itself woulf give about a 3% channeler ratio and thats with out those sent to the WT then you must remember that there are also no male channelers so in a given society i would have to give a ballpark figure of 5% of them as channelers. so where were they in the AOL???? i say that the missing channelers were those who were never trained.<br /><br />now blast this away!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">isandorn the lowly<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perplexed.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Narg Lives!<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Why live when life lacks the luster worth living for???</font><p></p>


created: 2003-06-01 20:34:14
subject: <b>Ok, I will</b>
body:
A lot of Athan Miere do NOT live on ships (including the population of Tremalking and lots of other islands) - this crops up in lots of places, so I'm not going to give references, though you could probably find them yourself with the http://idealseek.no-ip.com/ WoT text search engine.<br /><br />Additionally, only some of the Windfinders can channel. I quote from Ch.20 of tSR:<br /><br />&quot;After a moment Jorin went on. 'It is not all of us. Only some. We send a few girls to Tar Valon so Aes Sedai will not come looking among us. No ship will carry Aes Sedai whose Windfinder can weave the winds.'&quot;<br /><br />Therefore some, for all we know, many, of the Windfinders canNOT channel.


created: 2003-06-20 15:16:27
subject: <b>Quick Point</b>
body:
The Tinkers are descended from Aiel as well, and their search for their &quot;song&quot; could be the singing from the Age of Legends.  Perhaps, when they find the song, they will save the land after Rand breaks it again.<br /><br />Also, about Lews Therin asking Ishamael if he has the Voice:<br /><br />a.  He was crazy from the Dark One's touch, so he might have mistaken Ishy for Aiel.<br /><br />OR<br /><br />b.  Not only Aiel can have the Voice.<br /><br />My belief is that there is nothing in the present world that dictates who gets what Talents.  So, even assuming that in the AoL genetic engineering was very advanced, nothing would stop a Talent from manifesting in a non-Aiel: after all, the Wheel weaves as the wheel wills.<br /><br />Aiel, through genetic engineering, often manifested this ability: however, genetic engineering only accounts for Aiel being born with this power, and fails to take into account people who manifest this power &quot;naturally.&quot;  <br /><br />I like this theory and the one that precedes it quite a bit.  Especially when you consider that, in all of the cultures descended from the Dashain Aiel in the Westlands, singing is a highly stylized and integral part of their way of life: the Tinkers search for the song, the Aiel dance the spears and sing after battle.<br /><br />These cultures have singing as a ritual: rituals meet and satisfy a need for a culture.  Even though they have forgotten why they need the song, the need is still there.  With the work you two theoreticians have put in, you may have hit on WHY singing is needed for those of Aiel descent.


created: 2003-06-24 19:55:34
subject: <b>Myrdraal had absolutely no part in whatever gibberish u just mumbled</b>
body:
Think about it. Myrdraals love killing, they ENJOY it. Why in the world would a myrdraal ever be with humans. He would kill fifty of them before a minute.<br /><br />Also, first and foremost there is no possible way that myrdraal would be part of ANYTHING in the ceremony. They didn't exist!!!! Remember everybody that Aginor created Myrdraal after the Dark One broke loose and if they were still singing, he probably hadn't broken loose yet. So the singing occured even before Aginor had made them!!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> Warder-Brother to Mat Reborn5 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-06-25 07:24:44
subject: <b>whoa, dude</b>
body:
I wasn't saying that myddraal sung along with the aiel, nym and ogier.  I was just saying that there are some similarities between the two ceremonies, where living creatures are used as filters for the OP, or living teran'greal.<br /><br />And by the way, in the Turning ceremony, there are thirteen Aes Sedai as well as thirteen myddraal, as we as the unhappy brute being Turned.  Perhaps the myrddraal can tolerate a human presence long enough to do that, at least..<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>&quot;Those who beat their swords into plowshares will plow for those who don't.&quot; - Thomas Jefferson</i><br /><br /> PSUCOM Class of '09</font><p></p>


created: 2003-12-07 23:16:43
subject: <b>Nym</b>
body:
I really liked your theories.  I think that they were well thought out and written very eloquently.  However I tend to be sceptic sometimes so please don't take offense.<br /><br />Are we sure that the Tinkers and the Aiel will ever learn to sing again?  What I mean to say is this:<br /><br />We know that it is necessary to have the following for the Song: Ogier, Aeil(or at least some humans with some necessary 'trait') and the Nym.<br /><br />If you look at the description of the Nym in the Shadow Rising when Rand is in the ter'angreal in Rhuidean it reads something like this.<br /><br />&quot;Someshta sat against the wall near the door, a great shape seemingly woven of vines and leaves, his head a little above Jonai's even so.  A fissure of withered brown and charred black ran up the Nym's face and furrowed the green grass of his hair, and when he looked at Jonai, his hazelnut eyes seemed troubled.&quot; (pg 428 The Dedicated, The Shadow Rising)<br /><br />&quot;A stir at the end of the field told him one of the Nym was approaching.  The great form, head and shoulders and chest taller than any Ogier, stepper out onto the seeded ground, and Coumin did not have to see to know he left footprints filled with sprouting things.  It was Someshta, surrounded by clouds of butterflies.&quot; (pg. 432 The Dedicated, The Shadow Rising)<br /><br />At the end of The Eye of the World our group meets the Green Man.  Heres the description:<br /><br />&quot;A figure stepped out of the foliage, a man-shape as much bigger than Loial as the Ogier was bigger than Rand.  A manshape of woven vines and leaves, green and growing.  His hairwas grass, flowing to his shoulders; his eyes, huge hazelnuts; his fingernails, acorns.  Green leaves made his tunic and trousers; seamless bark, his boots.  Butterflies swirled around him, lighting on his fingers, his shoulders, his face.  Only one thing spoiled this verdant perfection.  A deep fissure ran up his cheek and temple across the top of his head, and in that the vines were brown and withered&quot; (pg 740 The Dark One Stirs, The Eye of the World)<br /><br />Now assuming that the Green Man was the last of the Nym than the Song could very well never be sung again, because the Green Man died.<br /><br />&quot;'This sall not be!' The Green Man strode out of the trees with a voice like lightning striking an ancient oak.  'You do not belong here!'  Aginor spared him a brief, contemptuous glance.  'Begone!  Your time is ended, all your kind but you long since dust.  Live what life is left to you and be glad you are beneath out notice.'  Balthamel tossed Nynaeve aside like a rag, and likea crumpled rag she fell, eyes staring, limp as if all her bones had melted.  One leather-clad hand lifted, and the Green Man roared as smoke rose from the vines that wove him.  The wind in the trees echoed his pain.&quot; (pg 750 Meetings at the Eye, The Eye of the World).<br /><br />Now assuming you trust Aginor's statement that all the Nym have died (I'm not so sure) the Song could be lost forever.  However I'm willing to bet that there are Nym that we haven't heard of in Shara or maybe in hiding somewhere else.<br /><br />Sorry to have used up so much space or if I popped a hole in your own theories.<br /><br />Silver_fire


created: 2005-07-18 01:55:44
subject: <b>the song</b>
body:
...maybe that's just the thing that cadsuane's gonna teach rand...yea right!! but GOOD theory, i agree with you and LitN. Can someone tell me what IMO is? It's bad enough that &quot;AoL&quot; confused me for the longest time...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br />&lt;--iKandy--&gt;</font><p></p>


created: 2003-05-28 13:31:13
subject: <b>You might have something here</b>
body:
This is well thought out.  I have feeling that you might well be right.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I love Trillessa</font><p></p>


created: 2003-05-28 14:40:16
subject: <b>i agree with generalwooly</b>
body:
nice little bit of detective work!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>&quot;Those who beat their swords into plowshares will plow for those who don't.&quot; - Thomas Jefferson</i><br /><br /> PSUCOM Class of '09</font><p></p>


created: 2003-05-28 14:54:25
subject: <b>While it is possible,</b>
body:
While it is possible that Berelain is the other woman, much of what you had to say to back it up was wrong or misguided.  Berelain would not be safe in Masema's camp.  Ever.  Again and again everyone who has met with or even looked into Masema's eyes has said that he is crazy so he would be willing to kill Berelain especially since it was rumored that she and Perrin had been together the night of Faile's abduction.  After all, Masema is on a holy mission.  Nor would his own self protection or those of his followers worry him.  He would expect the 'good' side (i.e. his side) to win against any 'bad' guys (i.e. everyone else) in any fight no matter what the odds simply because they were the good guys.  <br /><br />Also, although Faile sees spying as a wifely duty (not RJ), it does not make sense for Berelain to feel that she should act as a wife would for Perrin, nor that she would feel that acting as spymaster for Perrin would be a wifely duty in the first place.  After all, Saldaens are often considered strange by most other cultures.<br /><br />One other thing.  Since Berelain is aware of Perrin's spies, don't you think she would have taken care not to be seen by them and to make sure that Masuri would not be seen, too?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> My prophecy states that this prophecy will come true <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tinfoilhat.gif" border="0" /> My prophecy kicks your prophecy's butt <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tinfoilhat.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-05-28 16:19:35
subject: <b>crazy like a fox</b>
body:
vanin: <br /><br />while i agree that masema is certifiably insane, i disagree with most of your points.<br /><br />masema feeds his mob with extortion - as he's dealt with nobles before, and much as he is most likely dealing with berelain. (i'm sure he thinks little better of her than he did the other nobles.) with a huge army at his back and the glint of insanity in his eye, he has a huge edge over minor rulers. i'm sure he thinks that berelain is cowed by his feral, drooling mass of hooligans, and he probably thinks he has her right where he wants her.<br /><br />also, you have to remember that the first of mayene is a cunning negotiator. knowing her, she could talk her way out of a steel trap. i think berelain would be safe enough inside masema's camp, as long as she walks a fine line. berelain, if it is truly her, is working an angle on masema for perrin's benefit - she's already said that she's vested all her hopes in his success.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>&quot;Those who beat their swords into plowshares will plow for those who don't.&quot; - Thomas Jefferson</i><br /><br /> PSUCOM Class of '09</font><p></p>


created: 2003-05-28 16:20:32
subject: <b>continuing post (firewall limits my post length...)</b>
body:
and, masema isn't completely 'blinded by the light.' he's crazy, not stupid.. he would not be willing to take on a force that would likely destroy his, all insanity aside. granted, he's never truly had the opportunity to make that sort of decision, but look at his tactics - small raiding parties raping remote farms, setting up camp inside relatively prosperous towns and frightening nobles with the prospect of mass riots. he's just a bully.<br /><br />and besides - perrin is as close to the Dragon Reborn as a person can be. masema wouldn't want to displease the lord dragon, would he? or perrin, by extension. news of his offing berelain would certainly raise perrin's ire.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>&quot;Those who beat their swords into plowshares will plow for those who don't.&quot; - Thomas Jefferson</i><br /><br /> PSUCOM Class of '09</font><p></p>


created: 2003-05-28 16:21:27
subject: <b>continuing post (firewall limits my post length...)</b>
body:
and while saldaeans may be strange to most other cultures, women everywhere are still women, and noble women everywhere are still noble women (no offense meant, of course.) berelain would no doubt see the inherent usefulness of cha faile. whether or not she sees it as wifely duty, she will use them, because she can. why waste a good source of info?<br /><br />and even still, if berelain saw spymastery as some sort of wifely thing to do for perrin, she'd jump on it like a chicken on a june bug. i mean, <u>come</u> <u>on</u>, she's had her sights set on perrin for ages now. what better way to supplant faile than to take over her duties in her abscence and work her way into perrin's good graces??<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>&quot;Those who beat their swords into plowshares will plow for those who don't.&quot; - Thomas Jefferson</i><br /><br /> PSUCOM Class of '09</font><p></p>


created: 2003-05-28 16:21:56
subject: <b>(i hate this thing)</b>
body:
and, if the spies see her, so what? she knows they see her. they are her spies, that's what she keeps them around for.<br /><br />(and for the record, cha faile are definitely faile's underlings, half the time they're spying on perrin himself or screwing up his plans. saying they're perrin's spies is simply incorrect.)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>&quot;Those who beat their swords into plowshares will plow for those who don't.&quot; - Thomas Jefferson</i><br /><br /> PSUCOM Class of '09</font><p></p>


created: 2003-05-28 20:30:05
subject: <b>Where is the Undecided Hand {Pointed straight out, maybe}</b>
body:
I voted &quot;No&quot; but you could be right, of course.  The thing that bothers me is that Berelain has now become a friend and crying shoulder for Perrin.  This could not be pretense, because Perrin would smell it!  In addition, Berelain most certainly is not amused by Annoura`s supposed actions.  Recall her statement at So Habor, when she said Annoura would have to mend what she had broken.  To go with your Theory, that could be interpreted as Berelain simply being upset that Annoura was not forthcoming with her.  But I still have many doubts.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2003-05-29 00:12:14
subject: <b>I don't know</b>
body:
As you said, there is not enough data. I think that the Annoura is slightly more viable, but very slightly, b/c she is AS, so she could channel. Becides, Berelain is a ruler, and they usually don't go wandering around talking to insane madmen(unless they're Alliandre<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />).


created: 2003-05-29 02:13:51
subject: <b>wahaha!</b>
body:
New Forsaken--I liked that Alliandre bit in your post.<br /><br />I agree that this theory is well thought out, and makes valid points. I especially like the part about Berelain having a reason for not squashing the rumors about her and Perrin. <br /><br />However, the whole So Harbor scene makes it seem that Annoura has been acting suspiciously lately, or at least has taken action of which Berelain disapproves. The theory should have taken that into account, if only just to present it as a counterargument.<br /><br />Despite that, excellent work!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/clap.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lan.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/clap.gif" border="0" /><br />Nynaeve and Lan!<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-05-29 02:16:12
subject: <b>Leashing the mad dog</b>
body:
Masuri? How better to leash the dog than to bond him as a warder. Annoura is Gray, not so interested in warders, she may already have one for all we know, but Masuri is Green. She can have as many as she likes. One more, purely for the purpose of protecting Rand and by extension Perrin. Sure. Berelain or Annoura either one could be plotting with Masuri to help her get her hands on Masema.


created: 2003-05-29 02:28:15
subject: <b>Maybe she's just jealous....</b>
body:
I agreed with most everything you said and it seems highly probable that this shadowy, unidentifiable character is Berelain.  The only part of your theory I disagree with is:<br /><br />&quot;To me it did not ring true that Berelain would allow the rumors to spread without action, so there must be some explanation of why she did so.&quot;<br /><br />I have mixed feelings about Berelain.  She seems both coldly calculating and ruled by her desires.  I could just imagine Faile coming back to Perrin and, in the typical WoT-woman way, completely blowing the rumors out of proportion.  I can see a jealous Berelain using this as an opportunity to get what she wants or to destroy what she can't have.  A sort of &quot;if i can't have it, no one can&quot; attitude.  Robert Jordan seems, in my opinion at least, to make his men focused on one objective.  His women, on the other hand, always seem to be of two minds, they fulfill their duties but they also spend a great deal of their time angry and bent on complicating men's lives.  The frivolous side.  I don't see that Berelain has to have some grandiose reasoning.<br /><br />I do think this theory is entirely possible, anyway, especially since all of the women in the books seem to think that the men can't take care of themselves.  (Which they can't, of course! *wink<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/myrddraal.gif" border="0" />  She might just be taking the initiative, being the strong-willed woman she is.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />


created: 2003-05-29 02:45:07
subject: <b>Not quite so crazy</b>
body:
And I think Berelain would be just fine in Masema's camp.  I said &quot;strong-willed&quot; but I also meant intelligent, beautiful, and deadly, not to mention a cunning negotiator thanks to long years living in the shadow of Tear.  And I agree that her connection with Perrin, be it intimate or otherwise, gives her a good deal of protection.  Angering Perrin would, in turn, anger the Dragon Reborn.  I don't think there's any question of whether Berelain COULD walk safely in his camp.  But would it serve a purpose?  *shrug*  Very likely.


created: 2003-05-29 08:53:49
subject: <b>It's certainly possible...</b>
body:
but like jofraz I'm undecided if you are really right.<br /><br />In any case, it's a well written theory!


created: 2003-05-29 11:54:49
subject: <b>You make some very valid points</b>
body:
I gave this a thumbs-up because it is insightful and quite possibly true. <br /><br /> My nagging thought though, is that Anoura is a DF.( she's been under suspicion since she did that thumb touching the forefinger thing when we first saw her after Dumai Wells.)<br /> And now in CoT, we see Masuri under suspicion as well, due to her too many encounters with, and knowledge of Darkhounds, at least according to Elyas. And Masema has been consorting with Suroth too, a known DF.<br /> It could simply be a meeting of the minds among fellow bad-guys.<br /> For intrigue though, I like your explanation better.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2003-05-30 13:12:18
subject: <b>Love the idea</b>
body:
of one of the two AS bonding Masema as a warder - great thought, lil timmy! I do think it is Masuri and not Berelain accompanying Annoura, and for this purpose. Maybe Berelain does know about it, but I doubt it; being AS they would keep it to themselves and would only have told the Wise Ones because they had no choice. <br /><br />There is definitely more to Berelain letting everyone think she is shagging Perrin, but I think it is so they can talk without people becoming suspicious, like they did in CoT. <br /><br />


created: 2003-05-31 16:16:02
subject: <b>The Berelain v. Faile thing</b>
body:
I disagree with Thelene. Berelain made it very clear from tSR Ch. 14 that she feels nothing for Perrin, he was a poor second to Rand, and her attraction for him is purely physical. She made it even clearer that she is only after Perrin to take him away from Faile. Quote:<br /><br />&quot;I despise being attached, farmgirl, so this is what I will do.  I will take the blacksmith away from you and keep him as a pet for as long as he amuses me.  Ogier's oath on it, farmgirl.  He is quite ravisihig really - those shoulders, those arms; not to mention those eyes of his - and if he is a bit uncultured, I can have that remedied.  My courtiers can teach him how to dress, and rid him of that awful beard.  Wherever he goes, I will find him and make him mine.  You can have him when I am finished.  If he still wants you, of course.&quot;<br /><br />There has been NO indication ever since that Berelain's thoughts about Perrin have changed one jot.<br /><br />She will not win Perrin by spreading rumours about the two of them, though she may cause trouble between P &amp; F. No, she wants to beat Faile in a knock-down fight, i.e. for Perrin to choose her over Faile.


created: 2003-05-31 22:57:26
subject: <b>heh</b>
body:
you're giving berelain too much credit<br /><br />she was obviously taunting faile when she said all that, saying, &quot;i'm gonna take your husband from you just cause i think he's pretty&quot;<br /><br />berelain's trying to get perrin out of spite.<br /><br />of course, there's also the prospect of tying a string to a very powerful ta'veren who sits one step below the Dragon Reborn.<br /><br />berelain will take perrin anyway she can get him.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>&quot;Those who beat their swords into plowshares will plow for those who don't.&quot; - Thomas Jefferson</i><br /><br /> PSUCOM Class of '09</font><p></p>


created: 2003-06-02 02:16:27
subject: <b>question...</b>
body:
Isn't Masuri still an apprentice under oath to Wise Ones?  She won't do anything w/o Wise One approval (unless she's a DF).  This should make a Wise One the most likely &quot;other woman&quot;.


created: 2003-06-09 18:51:13
subject: <b>Your theory is very well reasoned, but</b>
body:
Just a few points to cast doubt on Berelain:<br /><br />in CoT HB, pgs211-212, when Masema rode into the forest where Masuri had just explained about Dark Hounds, Annoura tried to ride up to Berelain, but was called back twice by Masuri, the second time sharply, and Perrin heard her &quot;sigh heavily&quot;.  Thw WO`s huddled with the 2 AS, which Perrin could not hear, but he sensed that Annoura was not pleased.  <br /><br />again in CoT HB, pg 588, in So Habor, Perrin asked Berelain &quot;Does Annoura have an opinion on what`s happening here?  Berelain replied &quot;I`ve little idea what Annoura thinks&quot;. &quot;She is not as forthcomingas she once was. As I once thought she was. It is up to her to mend what she has torn&quot;.  This conversation was held in Annoura`s hearing.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br />to me, this is more compelling evidence against Berelain going to Masema`s camp.<br /><br />With all the above, it seems highly likely that Annoura is under the WO`s thumbs, for whatever reason.<br /><br />A minor point:  Berelain`s reason for not setting the camp straight about Perrin and herself is strictly in character for her.  She is quite simply living up to her Ogier`s Oath to Faile several books back, I think LoC.  <br /><br />Eshelmon:  you`re almost right-but the AS are under oath to the DR, who gave them over to the Aiel as :apprentices&quot;.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2003-05-29 00:14:32
subject: <b>Yay, first!</b>
body:
While there are parallels, I was thinking(read the BWB), that we were in the First Age, there was a big war, and that lead into the AoL. To me, it seems the most likely possibility, though RJ definitely did get ideas from current events.


created: 2003-05-29 02:02:33
subject: <b>*snicker*</b>
body:
You make very good points. I applaud you.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/clap.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lan.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/clap.gif" border="0" /><br />Nynaeve and Lan!<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-05-29 04:44:51
subject: <b>French</b>
body:
He was being ironic about the french <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br />(at least, I hope he was)<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" />


created: 2003-05-29 08:54:29
subject: <b>Shadar Logoth = Washington</b>
body:
I think Washington is becoming a Shadar Logoth by using the dark one way to fight the dark one ...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">The Wanderer <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-05-29 09:20:26
subject: <b>Some people have no taste</b>
body:
Lol, I'd say we're after the breaking when it comes to music really. Most music out there now is crap, and the 80's actualy had some rgeat music in it. These shows like American Idol and the crap they display as 'great musical talent' is more of a taint than anything else.


created: 2003-05-29 09:20:40
subject: <b>I'm speechless.............</b>
body:
'3. The emergence of Talents is another thing that is emphasized in the Age of Legends. We are now just starting to find new talents, that were long lost. We are replacing the <b>terrible music of the 80s</b> by finding new people via <b>excellent shows</b> such as <b>American Idol</b> (kudos to Ruben).'<br /><br />I simply can't agree with the above comment, maybe the 80's wasn't crisp and clean but it came up with some great music by real talents.<br />If anything the true talents have been lost and have become rare, replaced in the most part by people who couldn't have gotten anywhere without some <b>contest</b>.<br /><br />I'm not giving out about the theory, just the implacation that the manufactured Pop of today is the best music we've had in decades..........I'll let the above sentence be my denfense as to why the comment is untrue.<br />Just say it to yourselves, and shudder.<br /><br />Creative theory though<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><u><b>Owner</b></u> of Mat Girl - I have it in <i>writing</i> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><i>'Wight now I imagwin your feewing a bit wike Awice, tumbewing down the wabbit hoewl'</i>-<b><u>Morpheus</u></b><br /><br /><b><u>I am <i>NOT</i> a Zoo!</u></b></font><p></p>


created: 2003-05-29 09:47:24
subject: <b>you forgot one...</b>
body:
where's the land of madmen? (or whatever it's called, i no have BWB)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Seeking Aes Sedai for Bondage... uhh bonding. <br /><br />We rode on the winds of the rising storm,<br />We ran to the sounds of the thunder,<br />We danced among the lightning bolts,<br />and tore the world asunder.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-05-29 10:45:49
subject: <b>Viva the 80s</b>
body:
I don't know what you're talking about.  The 80s, though a veritable wasteland for fashion, had a lot of awesome music.  Today's music is nothing more than recycled pop trash, for the most part.  Ever heard of a little band called Aerosmith?  Some of their best music was in the 80s.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">If a sword had memory, it might be grateful to the forge fire, but never fond of it.<br />     -Rand Al'Thor<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-05-29 14:46:22
subject: <b>some bright spots</b>
body:
there were some bright spots in the middle of all that hair. for instance, <i>master of puppets, ride the lightning, and justice for all</i>..<br /><br />on the whole though, the eighties weren't that impressive musically.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>&quot;Those who beat their swords into plowshares will plow for those who don't.&quot; - Thomas Jefferson</i><br /><br /> PSUCOM Class of '09</font><p></p>


created: 2003-05-29 16:06:14
subject: <b>LOL</b>
body:
I don't buy into your logic but I must give you props on funny conclusion.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Front Man for the MH club</font><p></p>


created: 2003-05-29 16:34:21
subject: <b>Duh?</b>
body:
How many people out there missed that this is in the 'humorous theories' category and took it seriously?<br /><br />Personally, it is a great bit of funny sarcasm, but from some of the other comments, some of you took it at face value.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Telvin</font><p></p>


created: 2003-05-29 22:54:55
subject: <b>hmmm...</b>
body:
comparing the One Power to the states? comparing the Age of Legends to America Online? and lost talents to American Idol? not science and engineering, no american idol is where we're trully getting all back!!!! if we were in the AoL, we'd be more like on the road to it, then already there. this ain't no eutopia with no strife and hardship, with everyone workin for community and not personal wealth. funny theory though. plus the taint didn't happen till AFTER the AoL.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Fortune rides like the sun on high<br />with the fox that makes the ravens fly.<br />Luck his soul, the lightning his eye,<br />He snatches the moons from out the sky.&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-05-30 00:03:14
subject: <b>take a walk on the wild side</b>
body:
All decades generate a big load of mediocrity...<br />As for the US being the One power, well, I'd say your on the &quot;right&quot; side of things.<br /> <br /><br />


created: 2003-05-30 02:31:33
subject: <b>The 80's...</b>
body:
wher all you needed was a synthesizer and a ridiculous haircut to become a great musician...<br /><br />I suppose what it comes down to is where you look for musical talent, if you don't think beyond the music you hear on the radio you can't get an accurate picture of musical value. The 80's spawned much crap, but it also spawned a lot of good music - as is the case today.<br /><br />As for shows like American Idol, while I can't say the artists lack a capacity to entertain, I would not go so far as to say they were musically talented.<br /><br />in compulsion: Ton Loc = bad, David Newman = good / Justin Timberlake = bad, Mike Phillips = good


created: 2003-05-30 05:49:05
subject: <b>Humor...</b>
body:
I suppose...though I only laughed at the bit where the author said <b>American Idol</b> is an excellent show with excellent performers on it.<br /><br />And is Bin Laden really using the French against America? I mean, really, the <i>French</i>?


created: 2003-05-30 11:47:12
subject: <b>what the?</b>
body:
What kind of stupid political crap is that? Leave the politics out of wotmania please!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Help, I'm being repressed! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Could someone please turn down the white noise, I find it to be somewhat racist. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tinfoilhat.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />There shined a shiny demon <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-05-30 13:17:31
subject: <b>Telvin: I did...</b>
body:
I voted no 'cos I didn't see it was in humorous theories. Now that I've seen that, I think it's funny. But, being from Europe, I don't agree about the French bit...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font face="bitstream vera">Quality procrastination should always be given the time it needs.<br /><font color="white"> BLANK SPACE BL </font><i>&#169;amilla</i></font><br /><br /><br /><font color="#999999"> Add yourself to the map below</font></font><p><a href="http://www.frappr.com/wotmania" target="_blank">See where wotmaniacs live!</a></p><p></p>


created: 2003-05-30 18:07:11
subject: <b>Haha</b>
body:
Too bloody right Adrian!<br /><br />USA as the One Power? Well well... The True Powers would be China, North Korea and Russia.<br />Besides the AOL sounds like communism to me, not the Stalin/Pol Pot style but the general idea of it.<br />That is, when everyone works for the good of the community and so on. True communism is after all a utopia.<br />Senator Joseph McCarthy is probably rotating in his grave right now. He will haunt you forever CleanToe.<br /><br />As this is a reply to a theory posted in the humorous section I recommend that you read it cum grano salis (I would have italicized it but I can't =).  <br /> <br /><br />


created: 2003-05-30 19:10:41
subject: <b>dang you guys</b>
body:
I was just playin when I wrote it. Some of you need to relax and follow the contemporary Way of the Leaf. I thought it was hilarious, but maybe that's because it's my dry humor that not many take a liking to.<br /><br />This is only my second theory (both of which happen to be in the humerous category), and still they both are voted down. I guess I'll have to put extra effort into these divine theories.


created: 2003-05-31 06:32:02
subject: <b>You have the wrong Age</b>
body:
I think we're in the Third Age. Some of the most adventurous from the Old World (Europe) have gone to the New World (America), slaughtered or enslaved the indigenous peoples and set up a monolithic Empire covering the whole Western continent (sorry Canada, I'm ignoring you, but then so does America). The Deathwatch Guards are clearly the FBI/CIA/NSA. And people with the most power are bald (that'd be Dick Chenie) and speak through a Voice (yep, that's Dubbya).<br /><br />Now the all-powerful Western Empire is sending its armies back across the rest of the world, and no-one can stand in their way. The Damane represent USAF bombers, and the Raken represent the US spy satellites. (I'm warming to this!).<br /><br />Now we know that Seanchan (the US) and Randland (Old Europe) are going to come to some accomodation until the DO (Bin Laden) has been defeated, and in the meantime the Forsaken (Arab countries) will lose their freedom of action and become just separate expressions of the DO's will (don't think I need the brackets anymore).<br /><br />By the way, the Land of Madmen is the third continent that no-one's found yet, and people seem happy to ignore it. That's Oz presumably (hell, I might as well insult everyone while I'm at it).


created: 2003-06-01 11:03:35
subject: <b>The Nations Turn Sere...</b>
body:
Another parallel can be drawn: the overall weather and seasons. Global weather has lately been quite topsy turvy and the seasons no longer quite fit the normal pattern. And it has been subtly but steadily getting worse with help from polluting Darkfriends. Could it be that the Dark One is touching our world, hurtling it towards our own Tarmon Gai'don? If Osama bin Laden is Padan Fain and Bush is at least a Forsaken (like Anath manipulating Seanchan), who would be our Dragon? Who sits in the Dragon Throne and advocates the communistic society of the Age of Legends? The rulers of China! Here's looking at the Dragon Preborn making one out of the many nations of Europe and tie the Bald Eagle of USA to himself before Tarmon Gai'don falls upon us! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /><br />Australia would be the Land of Madmen since it's mad to permit the United Imperial States of America to lead its way! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Gaeran Amaconde<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />Grand Historian at the Court of the Sun<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />One of Those Chosen to Bring the Light<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" />Master of Graendal's Revels<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" />&quot;If sometimes our dreams come true, what of our nightmares?&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-06-01 11:13:57
subject: <b>Shock and Awe of the Dragon</b>
body:
An Iraqi in Bush's war on Saddam: &quot;What do you think about that name? The 'shock and awe' campaign. Shock, I understand. Awe, don't really get it. I don't think I would be standing outside of my...ruined house going, 'Oh my God! Look at what they did. They killed my parents, my son, my daughter, my wife. Everybody! But what a fireball. I mean...I shed a tear. It was, Kodak moment, seriously. Wow,'&quot; <br /><br />A Cairhienin staring at the partly destroyed Sun Palace: &quot;Light...what shock and awe...I'm shocked at this preview of the Second Breaking. *sniffle* I'm nearly overwhelmed by awe at the implications of the Dragon Reborn's death...everyone's gonna die...Light....how lucky am I that the Pattern wove me into this moment!&quot;<br /><br />Moral: President Bush can never equal the glory of a major ta'veren like the Dragon Reborn, but he sure can equal the destructiveness of a major ta'veren!!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Gaeran Amaconde<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />Grand Historian at the Court of the Sun<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />One of Those Chosen to Bring the Light<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" />Master of Graendal's Revels<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" />&quot;If sometimes our dreams come true, what of our nightmares?&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-06-02 02:24:54
subject: <b>Funny.</b>
body:
But I liked the post suggesting the US is Seanchan. I also like the idea of Bush being one of the forsaken and Osama being Fain. And being an Aussie I really like the idea of Oz being the land of madmen. Our leaders are either mad or darkfriends for following the forsaken Bush and Blair.<br />


created: 2003-06-02 12:20:40
subject: <b>Funny</b>
body:
I thought this post was funny!  It really made me smile.  But then I had to go and read all the posts about the theory.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perplexed.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> My prophecy states that this prophecy will come true <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tinfoilhat.gif" border="0" /> My prophecy kicks your prophecy's butt <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tinfoilhat.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-06-03 01:08:24
subject: <b>Music in the now</b>
body:
I think the real issue with music these days is not shows like &quot;American Idol&quot;, but the fact that such shows and such pre-generated and publicized bands can overshadow some true musical talent.  I know pleanty of good, pure, natural bands out there that Clearchannel would never actually submit to playing on the radio because some record-company big-shot is too concerned with making a buck.  <br /><br />So yes, there is good music, but no, it rarely gets futher than the local scene.<br /><br />The end.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">~~Aolani<br /><br /><br /><br />&quot;Everybody's seen the things they've seen<br />We all have to live with what we've been&quot;  <br />~-~ Bruce Cockburn, Justice<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-06-04 18:20:42
subject: <b>Gabashi!</b>
body:
Well although I agree with part there is one thing that ends this idea.<br /><br /><br />Rap. Thats it, theory gone.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sargon of Akkad<br />Owner of the <font color="silver">Silver Couch</font><br />The Unknown Elder<br /><i><font color="crimson">I feel like grandpa on the porch with his stick grumbling about whipper-snappers      *giggles*</font></i>~Jenn<br /><font color="green">Doesn't Gary just love us all? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /></font>~Spettio<br /><font color="gray">The Sultan of Swing&quot;</font></font><p></p>


created: 2003-06-05 05:31:34
subject: <b>rap is badass</b>
body:
i don't know what you're talkin bout, but i like rap. those cats have talent. i wanna hear you freestyle to a beat. guapo.


created: 2003-06-05 17:47:15
subject: <b>France as the Taint?</b>
body:
Odd, but anyway<br /><br />Bush= Mordeth<br />Saddam, Osama = Forsaken<br />Bill Gates= the Dark One<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I am cool, are you? <br /><br />The kicker of the seals <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <br />The flame that burned down Tar Valon <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />My arse is the Amyrlin Seat</font><p></p>


created: 2003-06-05 20:48:15
subject: <b>well</b>
body:
i would say that Bill Gates is more of Padan Fain. Fidel Castro is the Dark One, while Saddam, Osama, Khomeini, and Kim Jong-Il are the Forsaken.<br /><br />But then who is Rand? Certainly not Bush. He's more like Narg. Maybe the Dragon hasn't been reborn yet <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/frown.gif" border="0" /> .


created: 2003-06-07 22:08:24
subject: <b>uhmmm</b>
body:
That was probably the stupidest thing I ever read. that was disgusting.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Lugh of the Vanth<br />Prince of Coolavin<br />Lord of the Darmods<br /><br />&quot;If you must mount the gallows, give a jest to the crowd, a coin to the hangman, and make the drop with a smile on your lips.&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2003-06-08 13:19:40
subject: <b>French Tinkers</b>
body:
I think parts of this thoery are pretty funny, but how on earth did you end up getting the French as the Taint? I would have thought their current position puts them in a Tinkers shoes... (a lot of Tinkers in Europe around this particular issue)<br /><br />Vive The way of the Leaf!<br /><br />And Jordanian's reply seems pretty spot on to me. The Seanchan think what they are doing is for the best (it never occured to them that their way of life is not necessarily what everyone wants, but they are stubborn enough that I can see them eventually founding some Roman Style Empire where they rule by commerce and leave reasonably pliant local leaders in place.)


created: 2003-06-09 17:49:47
subject: <b>The Last Empire in Our Age</b>
body:
RJ refered to our Age and let's see how RJ saw the end of our Age.<br />EotW: &quot;Tales of Mosk the Giant with his lance of fire that could reach around the world, and his wars with Alsbet, the queen of all.&quot; Mosk is obviously Moscow, Russia and the lance of fire sounds like the ICBMs (InterContinental Ballistic Missiles). Alsbet would be Queen Elizabeth II.<br /><br />TSR: &quot;Go back to the oldest tales I know, from the Age before the Age of Legends. Did Mosk and Merk really fight with spears of fire, and were they even giants?...&quot; Merk is America. Apparently America and Russia fought a war, unless RJ was referring to the Cold War. Britain was a key US ally in the Cold War. Now that the Soviet Union's gone, the US is the last world &quot;empire&quot;. <br /><br />Only one problem: the Portal Stones were said to be created in the Age before the Age of Legends. Perhaps they were created by our scientists interested in experimenting with the Theory of Quantum Mechanics. Perhaps machines would be created to utilize the One Power to activate the Stones. What about the discovery of the One Power? Modern scientists are deeply skeptical about anything like the One Power. However, a major war would force the scientists to be unconventional as World War II did (experimentations with jet engines, rocketry, laser techs, plastic, radar, atomic power, invisibility--rumors of the Philadelphia Experiment, anyone?). World War III may be terrible enough to force the discovery of the One Power and construction of the Portal Stones, ending our Age so that we could move into the Age of Legends. Certainly, the machinations of America's current regime is setting the world stage for the next big war. Not difficult to imagine agents with nefarious purposes maneuvering the American Empire into wreaking havoc like Darkfriends and Semirhage has done with the Seanchan Empire. Similarly, the arrogant Seanchan view that their way is the only way is like the American view that our way is the only way.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Gaeran Amaconde<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />Grand Historian at the Court of the Sun<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />One of Those Chosen to Bring the Light<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" />Master of Graendal's Revels<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" />&quot;If sometimes our dreams come true, what of our nightmares?&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-06-10 14:50:46
subject: <b>i wonder</b>
body:
i don't know if this is true or not or maybe just distorted myth, but supposedly the Dragon is reborn in every age. Could this just be a distortion of the prophecies? Maybe he's only reborn in certain ages. For those of you who have seen the Matrix 2: Reloaded, you can see what I am talking about with distorted prophecies.


created: 2003-06-10 14:54:19
subject: <b>oh yeah</b>
body:
That may have seemed like a non-sequitor. I meant to post that because it doesn't seem like the Dragon was reborn in our Age before the Age of Legends.<br /><br />Also, I just had the French as the Taint just as a bit of a joke. I hold no ill-will or animosity towards our wine-drinking longbread-chewing (both sound good right now!) transatlantic friends.


created: 2003-06-10 18:38:25
subject: <b>Speak for yourself</b>
body:
Well I do when they go on strike (again) and ruin everyone else's holiday plans (again).<br /><br />But so long as they continue to work a maximum 35 hour week, have the most feather-bedded social services in the world, and get the rest of Europe to subsidise their inefficient farmers, why should they care if they p*** off everyone else?<br />


created: 2003-06-10 20:08:53
subject: <b>huh?!</b>
body:
I can't believe you'd post this piece of crap but not my theory about how Toun engineered her own kidnapping?


created: 2003-06-11 01:03:14
subject: <b>isn't it obvious</b>
body:
My &quot;piece of crap&quot; has some humor, however drab it may be. Plus, why would she engineer her own kidnapping? That's pure speculation and I can't imagine you putting any evidence together that isn't suspect that would prove otherwise.<br /><br />Besides, mine was more of a joke.


created: 2003-07-21 14:10:46
subject: <b>Let it go..</b>
body:
Can you guys let go of the French and the taint thing? Youse a'makin me hangry.<br /><br />(Or maybe be more precise: couldn't you say the nasty evil French beauroc-rats (35h week / incessant strikes / excessive nailpolishing when you've been in the queue for the last hour and a half... and come back tomorrow because the office closes at 4.15pm sharp)


created: 2003-07-23 02:51:20
subject: <b>Who is Rand?</b>
body:
I don't know who Rand is (probably a canadian <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> ) but Mat is clearly me.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Fortune rides like the sun on high<br />with the fox that makes the ravens fly.<br />Luck his soul, the lightning his eye,<br />He snatches the moons from out the sky.&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-08-05 01:49:59
subject: <b>Way of the pot-leaf</b>
body:
I guess that would make me a Tuatha'an....peace!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">mystik_raider@hotmail.com<br /><br /><br />Thats my email and my MSN thing...</font><p></p>


created: 2003-11-09 15:58:47
subject: <b>eugh...</b>
body:
you HAVE to be kidding... you're using AMERICAN IDOL to compare? i haven't heard a whole lot of 80's music, but it's certainly a hell of a lot better than that pop $hit that's simply being recycled again and again, with little occasional remixes (which are becoming more popular for the stupid &quot;pop generation&quot;, i dont know why) and all american idol does is pump more of the pop culture crap into our already &quot;tainted&quot; society.<br />but i do agree with the last part...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">A closed mouth gathers no feet<br />Democracy is the art of saying &quot;nice doggy&quot; until you can find a gun<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/loial.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perrin.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-12-25 17:13:54
subject: <b>What were the mods thinking?</b>
body:
Why would they post this kind off theory?<br />I didnt see nothing about France etc. here, but I guess that was edited out. Anyway, why would they let a theory that is just racist go out? C'mon.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">You are all MAD I tell you! <br /><br />Mwahahahahahahahah! hahahhaha! hahaha....haha....ha..h....eh?<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-02-23 15:35:27
subject: <b>*Glower*</b>
body:
Ahem, my father is Canadian, therfore a link to the French, or &quot;taint.&quot; And Osama isn't evil! He's Ishamael! Completely out of his mind. Saddam Hussein is evil, but we caught him. Maybe the new Dark One is the President of either the USA or Zimbabwe. The Zimbabwean President is a bad one, and the American President wants to get rid of the Arctic Native Animal-thingy to get at Alaska's oil! Both are the candidates for Shai'tan. Of course, the Age of Legends is set after a world-wide disaster, after our Age. The legends of the Age before AoL speak of Merk (America) Mosk (Moscow) and their battles with spears of flame that reached around the world (Nuclear bombs and missles). They also speak of Elsbet, Queen of the World (Queen Elizabeth) Lenn (John Glenn) who traveled to the moon in a fiery eagle's belly, and there are others, but I forget their WoT interpretations into English.


created: 2009-02-19 07:08:49
subject: <b>I like it</b>
body:
Just didn't understand the thing about France.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Don't say always, don't say never.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-05-30 10:12:55
subject: <b>The Taint</b>
body:
I agree with your theory. You said that the Taint may have another dealing with the wheel. Have you considered that it may be there to keep the creater out of the Wheel of Time. Far feched, I know but it's something to thank about.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> mentaly insane <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />I'm the unknown Forsaken also known as NightRaider<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" />user of BALEFIRE<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Dent Stringer 1912~2004<br />Rest in peace Grandpa, you earned it</font><p></p>


created: 2003-05-30 10:53:34
subject: <b>No backwards dragon</b>
body:
I just can't believe that the &quot;third destroyer&quot; is another Dragon.  Another dragon is completely unimportant at this point.  All that matters now is Rand and LTT.  Jordan isn't foolish enough to toss something so huge into his epic at this point.  We've already met the third man.  I'm 95 percent sure I know who it is because I wrote a theory on it, and things that Jordan has said in interviews has strengthened my belief.  Plus, there is no evidence of it being another dragon laid out in the post. I also believe that the male channelers are getting better and recovering from the effects of the taint.  The fact that Rand is still sick is something that is not connected to the effects of the taint.  <br /><br />You had some interesting ideas though, and I enjoyed reading them.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>MatsEyeView</i><br />&quot;I'm your huckleberry.&quot; -Val Kilmer, &quot;Tombstone&quot;<br /><br />&quot;And he who forgets, is destined to remember&quot; -Pearl Jam's <i>Nothingman</i></font><p></p>


created: 2003-05-30 10:55:55
subject: <b>one part i don't agree with</b>
body:
Fain. i still think he's the third person, for reasons i wont go into here.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Seeking Aes Sedai for Bondage... uhh bonding. <br /><br />We rode on the winds of the rising storm,<br />We ran to the sounds of the thunder,<br />We danced among the lightning bolts,<br />and tore the world asunder.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-05-30 12:55:43
subject: <b>The Morridin idea</b>
body:
I've seen and heard the argument that the third person is morridin, and I suspect that's what you refer to. however LTT groups the third figure in with Rand and himself as destroyers, but even with all the self-deprecation would LTT realy categorise himself as no better than Fain or Ishy? I think it has to at least be more of an 'accidental' destroyer. One who destroys things around them but doesn't want to.


created: 2003-05-30 13:18:15
subject: <b>I agree with this theory</b>
body:
I agree with this theory.  I think Cadsaune (sp?) suggesting that all male channelers heard voices as they went mad, suggesting that there is, forgive me, method to the maddness.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I love Trillessa</font><p></p>


created: 2003-05-30 13:22:00
subject: <b>Well, good ideas...</b>
body:
but I disagree with almost everything.<br /><br />Your chess analogy is interesting but the Taint was surely an unplanned counterstrike, in my opinion only possible because the DO got somehow an access to Saidin through the Seals. Otherwise you must say that the DO <i> wanted </i> to become sealed by LTT so that he could taint Saidin and the Wheel get more and more holes. <br />That's not likely, especially since the DO was not far from winning in the war.  <br />Also I disagree that the Taint which is probably the TP makes holes in the pattern. Only balefire can destroy the pattern.<br /><br />Furthermore, in the past I also believed the third destroyer is the 1st Age Dragon but after reading a theory about Moridin being this person I found this more convincing and more logical for the story. <br /><br />Ok, enough for now, just wanted to say that though I disagree your theory is very thoughts provoking!


created: 2003-05-30 14:16:24
subject: <b>LTT is a depressive</b>
body:
...and he most certainly thinks himself as worthless, Crolan.  He has been self dreprecative enough to put himself even below Fain and Ishy.  Ishy didn't kill his kids, he himself accomplished that.  Ishy just rubbed salt in the wounds.  LTT thinks the only thing he can do is die.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>MatsEyeView</i><br />&quot;I'm your huckleberry.&quot; -Val Kilmer, &quot;Tombstone&quot;<br /><br />&quot;And he who forgets, is destined to remember&quot; -Pearl Jam's <i>Nothingman</i></font><p></p>


created: 2003-05-30 14:25:05
subject: <b>Holes in this Theory</b>
body:
The fact that there were past Dragons has been assumed all along; it is not a new revelation.<br /><br />Also, no one believes that the Creator placed the Seals on the DO's prison. Even if they don't know it was LTT, they know that before time the Creator sealed the DO in his prison (Note: Not that he placed Seals on the prison, but created the prison!)<br /><br />After reading this I'm left wondering what the point of it was.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">May you always walk in the Light,<br /><br />Adan, Jenn Aiel</font><p></p>


created: 2003-05-30 17:42:00
subject: <b>A new thought</b>
body:
I was thinking, maybe this theory was right, but it's not just any old Dragon that is the third voice.  Maybe it is one of the Dragons that had succumbed to the Dark One that Ishamael talked about.  Can't you just imagine such a Dragon trying to take control of Rand during Tarmon Gai'don?It would certainly add a new urgency to Rand's vow to die as himself.  I wonder, if this is true, if it might not be this &quot;Dark Dragon&quot; that's driving Rand (and LTT) to break the seals.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I love Trillessa</font><p></p>


created: 2003-05-30 18:34:47
subject: <b>Magnetic Threads</b>
body:
I like the idea of ta'veren threads being somehow attractive to one another.<br /><br />and, i agree with the 'holes in the pattern' idea, but i think that if ta'veren do pull on one another, then they would be able to, holes or no holes. this would create a linkage between the ages, maybe like spokes on a bicycle wheel.<br /><br />also, verin mentioned once that the Pattern may not just be limited to the weaving of threads, but the weaving of smaller Patterns as well (with TAR being the bridge between.) perhaps ta'veren are the linkages between these parallel wheels/weavings.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>&quot;Those who beat their swords into plowshares will plow for those who don't.&quot; - Thomas Jefferson</i><br /><br /> PSUCOM Class of '09</font><p></p>


created: 2003-05-30 19:56:31
subject: <b>Etzel is right, mostly</b>
body:
Except for the 2nd person in Rand`s head.  I believe he is the Dragon from the First Age.  As Fel said, at some point, the prison for the DO will be whole, again.  This is precisely why the Seals must be crushed in order for the Bore to heal itself. Do you recall Taim`s horror when Rand almost threw the Seal that Taim gave him, to the ground?<br /><br />BTW, there was an excellant Theory a few days ago posted about Weakening of Barriers to other worlds.  This ties in perfectly with my belief that Rand will be Reborn after spilling his blood in Shayol Ghul, and then be paired up with LTT and the 3rd person from other worlds to fight the Last Battle.  This also fits into my belief they will  join {marry} Min, Elayne and Avienda, respectively.<br /><br />This was a thought-provoking Theory.  Thank you for putting it out.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2003-05-30 21:00:52
subject: <b>hmm...</b>
body:
first of all, when ur talking about RJ's refrences to chess are you talking about &quot;stones&quot;? if so, it's not chess he's talking about, it's a game called &quot;go&quot;. it's older then chess and far harder. the chinese aristocrats used to play it. u place &quot;stones&quot; on a board with the object of the game to gain territory and capture enemy stones. yahoo has it.<br />plus the third dragon thing could be possible but i think it more likely that LLT is just an impression left on his soul. there's only one Dragon. but having 3 main personalities on his soul would explain alot. like him having 3 wives. maybe Elayne really is Illyena-reborn, and so on.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Fortune rides like the sun on high<br />with the fox that makes the ravens fly.<br />Luck his soul, the lightning his eye,<br />He snatches the moons from out the sky.&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-05-31 06:04:07
subject: <b>mostly to etzel</b>
body:
First off, I was refering more to the game Morridin plays. Etzel, there is not a signle peice of evidence that suggest it was an entirely unplanned counter attack. You said yourself the Shadow was enar to winning. The taint could very well have been an Ace in the hole that the DO pulled out when the 100 companions surrpised them all at SG.<br /><br />You say only balefire can destroy the pattern, yet destroying the pattern is the ultimate goal of the Dark One. So by your reckoning the only way he could do this is by balefiring ltos of things, soemthing even the shadow shied away from. Also sicne the dark One's prison was outside the poattern, the bore ahd to burn tthroguh the pattern to let him into it. Therefore, there is evidence that people have damaged the apttern aside from balefire.


created: 2003-05-31 07:06:49
subject: <b>Crolan_Dashiva</b>
body:
<b> First off, I was refering more to the game Morridin plays. Etzel, there is not a signle peice of evidence that suggest it was an entirely unplanned counter attack. You said yourself the Shadow was enar to winning. The taint could very well have been an Ace in the hole that the DO pulled out when the 100 companions surrpised them all at SG. </b><br /><br />Well, the story RJ tells us is that LTT sealed the Bore and because of that, &quot;at the moment of sealing&quot; (see Strike at SG) the DO could taint Saidin (though we don't know exactly how). <br />Even the word &quot;counter-strike&quot; indicates that the DO could only attacked because of LTT's acting. <br />If the DO could taint Saidin and if it was a part of his plan to destroy the world, why didn't he make it earlier but keep the Ace in the hole? That's not very clever. <br />And if you would say that the DO wanted to become sealed so that he could taint Saidin and thus become free an Age later, it's very unlikely.<br />Therefore, I think it was never intended to taint Saidin. The DO was close from coming free and destroying the world, so why bother to taint Saidin before this? It was an opportunity caused through LTT's surprising actions.    <br /><br /><br /><b> You say only balefire can destroy the pattern, yet destroying the pattern is the ultimate goal of the Dark One. So by your reckoning the only way he could do this is by balefiring ltos of things, soemthing even the shadow shied away from. Also sicne the dark One's prison was outside the poattern, the bore ahd to burn tthroguh the pattern to let him into it. Therefore, there is evidence that people have damaged the apttern aside from balefire. </b> <br /><br />OK, that's right. Though the DO wants to break the WoT, I think. Nevertheless I don't believe that the Taint makes holes in the pattern.<br />Wouldn't the Taint spread much more, not stay only on Saidin if it's like acid to the pattern? <br />Also in the Cleansing scene. Why didn't the whole moving Taint makes a really big hole in the pattern?<br /><br />On the other hand, mabye I don't understand you right, it's too abstract for me at the moment... <br />


created: 2003-05-31 11:37:36
subject: <b>A point on the taint strike...</b>
body:
One of the biggest things in the books that is never actually said is that the Forsaken were at SG to try and rip the DO out ofhis prison. RJ left us that to figure out on our own, but it's amazing how many people don't pick up on it. <br /><br />Anyway, since the DO was let looser (horrible sentence, but I'm sticking with it), he was therefore able to strike, whereas he couldn't before. Being the jerk that he is, he was probably planning on tainting both sides. What better way to stop the wheel from turning?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Gingers:</b> disturbing the dreams of decent folk since the dawn of time.<br /><br /><b>W.A.S.T.E.</b></font><p></p>


created: 2003-05-31 16:41:17
subject: <b>Where is LTT?</b>
body:
For the record I think the third person is probably Moridin - I was pretty convinced by this theory (see Theory Post). Not quite sure which theory MatsEyeView was referring to, but it doesn't appear to have been retained on the site.<br /><br />That aside, I think it is pretty clear LTT is hanging around somewhere as HIMSELF. From the tone and content of his comments, and from the information on the Forsaken that Rand has picked up from him, the LTT in Rand's head HAS to be really LTT, not a voice (whatever other male channeller's may or may not hear). Personally I think there is likely to be a parallel between a female channeller being trained allowing her to avoid dying, and a male channeller being trained (think Asmodean) to avoid some of the usual mental / physical degradation, though that is a theory for another day.<br /><br />To get back to my point (sorry this is rambling a bit), if LTT is back as himself, where is he? We may need some help from a philosopher or psychoanalyst (where is Herid whey you need him?), but I don't think someone can be alive only in someone else's brain synapses. So where is he? Well the obvious answer is Tel'an'rhiod, though no one has seen him there, or at least no one has such a theory. Answers on a postcard please...?


created: 2003-05-31 22:29:33
subject: <b>The Third Destroyer...</b>
body:
...is almost certainly another Dragon. Why would Rand only be born twice in all the ages (Rand and LTT)? It would suit RJs writing style much more to have an even older, almost unknown age, in which a third Rand was reborn (I call the third dragon the Fisher, who I think is a faint echo of the third destroyer rather than Rand). Plus he loves trinities. Maybe the Fisher was the one responsible for finding the One Power in the first place?<br /><br />But I believe that the reason LTT was able to tap into Rand was that LTT died by drawing in too much of the One Power, so he has been trapped in it for 3000 years with the taint (enough to make anyone go mad - remember he was sane when he died). Being so strong he was able to remain an individual soul, and once Rand started to channel, he had access back to his reborn soul.


created: 2003-06-01 04:44:45
subject: <b>i like that</b>
body:
Adrian, I think you should amalagamate more evidence and write a theory on that third destroyer. I tend to agree with you. I think the crossing of the balefire streams knocked something loose. Perhaps it made Rand's thread pull harder on that other destroyer's or something.<br /><br />I think to say that it is Moridin is absolutely silly, and the evidence offered for it is not convincing at all. I think it's a stigma that some people want to see something happen so bad that they convince themselves of it. Logically, it makes no sense (and it's a bad plot twist, considering the series is already too damn long).


created: 2003-06-01 23:49:59
subject: <b>Why only channelers</b>
body:
My problem with this theory is that there doesn't seem to be any reason why only ta'veran channelers cause this effect. This seems to be an arbitrary decision the way it is presented. Is there any other reason for this, besides the fact that Perrin and Mat don't hear voices?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;I can express more emotion than laughter, anger and let's . . .&quot;<br /><br />Shooganooga<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-06-06 23:20:50
subject: <b>No Dark Dragon</b>
body:
There is no Dark Dragon, when Rand and Ishy had that talk Rand yelled out that he had never submitted to th DO and then Ishy looked a little surprised that Rand would know that. I think it was fairly early on in the series. The third destroyer is most likely another Dragon, just not a bad one. I do think that would be cool, but if there was a bad Dragon, the wheel would already be broken, since the Dragon is needed to stop the DO. Wait a minute, what if the bad Dragon is Rand. If you remember there are those other worlds that are connected through the stones. It might be possible that in one of the other worlds Rand is bad and committed to stopping Rand in this world. Wow, Jordan really has made this series complex. The third Destoyer really could be anyone. There are so many possible theories that i think we will have to wait for the hundredth book to come out to describe the third destroyer.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> DarkKnight <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />&quot;What is, is, don't fight the past.&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2003-06-06 23:44:23
subject: <b>Apparently too long for the theory page...</b>
body:
Some Thoughts about the nature of the pattern, the Wheel, etc.<br /><br />Before I begin, I would just like to say how glad I am this site is out there.  Dorks like me seldom get the (captive) audience they require to spin their crazy tales.  This theory is heavy on the philosophy of the WOT and may be as dense as some of Fel's books are to Rand.  I am confident that Wotmania gurus will see this theory as something capable of enriching many and curing insomnia in the rest.<br /><br /><br />Not surprisingly, it can be helpful, or at least entertaining (for me, anyway), to think about the fabric of the WOT universe by reference to analogies.  In this post I will offer one and attempt to set out the implications it has for our understanding of the nature of Randland.<br /><br /><br />It goes without saying that the basis for the Aes Sedai symbol is the Yin and Yang, minus the small dots.  In Eastern mysticism, YnY attest to the fact that the universe is in balance between good and evil.  The small speck of evil in good and vice versa demonstrate that the two are necessary forces that, while always in conflict, always achieve a symbiotic harmony in the end.  Note the lack of specks in WOT.  One of the more obvious explanations of this lack is that the two represented halves of the OP, Saidar and Saidin, are nothing like one another.  Although they fit together to power the wheel, they share nothing in common.  I don't imagine too much disagreement here.<br /><br />Something more interesting appears when you begin to combine RJ's multi-dimensional way of thinking and writing with this classical dualism.  Imagine two opposing forces, Saidin and Saidar, good and evil, whatever.  Any relationship between then can be described by positioning oneself on a continuum - a horizontal number line.  At the midpoint of the line (think rudimentary geometry here), the forces are balanced.  Positive and negative cancel each other and equal zero.  Add another dimension, a y to the x, and all of the sudden you have a much richer picture of the universe.  Instead of being a one-dimensional continuum, you now have a two-dimensional Cartesian plane.  By adding another axis, you allow the possibility of both balance and imbalance.  Imagine the geometric point (0,100).  If good and evil are represented by the x value, you still balance out, at 0.  The y axis, however, indicates that another set of forces are not balanced (hence 100).  Another way to think about this is with reference to matrices, and we know that RJ has at least a passing interest in those (e.g. ter'angreal).  <br /><br />At any rate, having posited a possible simultaneous existence of balance and imbalance in a given system, it remains to be seen what, if any, second dimension the WOT series possesses.  It seems clear that by themselves, Saidin and Saidar are neither good nor evil.  They are tools and forces that drive the wheel, but they do not possess intrinsic normative valuations.  In other words, let's call our y axis good and evil and our x axis saidin/saidar.  <br /><br />Ah, you say, the DO, clearly evil, taints Saidin and upsets the balance between it and Saidar.  Why would he do that if the two axes are distinct?  He wouldn't.  We must remember that the both axes are part of a single system, a single picture of the universe.  By affecting the x balance, the y value can be altered as well.  Let's assume that +y is good and -y is bad.  Now, picture the simple equation y=x.  It is a diagonal line running from the lower left to the upper right.  If one is bound to follow the path of that line, the moving to the right or left will have a necessary effect on the y value where one finds oneself.  <br /><br />To explain - assume a perfect balance, we are at (0,0) and on the line y=x.  If the  DO taints Saidin, weakening it and this forces us say, to the left, he will also force us down, resulting in a net gain for evil and a net loss for good.  The flaw in our reasoning is that a similar shift to the right, in favor of Saidar, would result in good becoming stronger.  Obviously, the Creator (good, for our purposes) created the OP in a balance, so we can argue that a balance will result in the highest strength of good.  The equation y=x no longer suffices.  <br /><br />This is easily rectified.  Imagine the parabola y = -x^2.  It's highest point (and therefore good's strongest point), exists when x=0.  Any pulling to the right or the left causes y to decrease in value.  See where I'm going?  If imbalance or, dare I say it, chaos, is created, evil gains in strength.  Hmm.  Let the LoC rule.  Anyone?  Anyone?  <br /><br />Big deal, right?  Why does this matter at all?  Where do I get this notion that we are stuck on a particular line or equation when we have the whole Cartesian plane at our disposal?  The wheel weaves age laces as it spins through time.  This is a microcosm of the entire pattern which necessarily encompasses other universes.  Since the Creator does not tend to take an active hand in things, alternate universes such as that in TGH are more likely more strongly influenced by the DO, or at least the force of chaos.  The more chaotic, the less chance they ever had of existing.  Every possible world is distinguished from every other by the fact that although anything could have happened, certain things did happen.  Thus every possible world has followed a unique path through time.  It is convenient to think of each possible world as represented by a unique equation.  Although some event could have happened the same way in two possible worlds, at some point something different must have happened or the two worlds would not be separate.  Thus the sum total of all possible worlds (and thus the entire pattern) is comparable to the set of all possible equations in a given system.  <br /><br />How does that relate to us in Randland?  Not only is the DO trying to push the world right or left to move up or down the current equation, he wants to replace the dominant equation with one more favorable to him.  For example, y=-x^2 might be the world we're living in, but if the equation were changed to y=-100-x^2 the end result of any point on the line would be much more favorable to him (and evil).  This is why the DO must be cage in all possible worlds or he will be free in all possible worlds.  If freed, even in the most unlikely world of all, the DO will have the power to select any equation he wants and make it the most dominant.  Imagine if he chose y= negative infinity.  That would be a dark day indeed.  <br /><br />Even if partially able to touch the world, as he is now, the DO could also introduce discontinuities into the equation.  Bear with me now.  Imagine the equation set [y=-x^2 when x&gt;-5; y=-1,000,000,000 when x&lt;-5).  This is a discontinuity.  If the DO could push the world to the left far enough to get past -5 on this equation, his strength would jump astronomically.  A tiny nudge could send the world into oblivion.  Arguably, to force a discontinuity into the equation of that magnitude would require far more influence on things than the DO has, or he already would have done it.  Far more likely is the possibility of a point discontinuity, wherein a certain equation is true for all points except one.  Imagine if the y=-1,000,000,000 were true only when x equally EXACTLY -5.  As we shift back and forth, left and right, at some point we hit -5.  When that occurs, a great amount of evil is released for the the short window in which x=-5.  Such evil would appear suddenly and without warning and disappear just as quickly, leaving havoc in its wake.  Bubbles of evil, anyone?  Anyone?<br /><br />Indeed, the more power the DO gets over the pattern, the more he would be able to introduce these point discontinuities, each time increasing his influence on the world and breaking down the barriers between this and all other possible worlds (or this equation and equations more favorable to the DO).  Barriers would break progressively and with increasing frequency.  Ghosts, anyone?  Anyone?<br /><br />I want to point out that time has had no place in my explanation as of yet.  I do not mean that as time passed we move left to right, or right to left, or whatever.  Instead, over time we can move along our equation.  So far this giant convoluted post has considered only two dimensions and an equation raised to the second power.  Imagine the fun we could have in three or more dimensions with all those mathematical symbols your mom warned you about.<br /><br />I don't claim that RJ had all this in mind when he sat down to write the WOT, but it is a seemingly effective way of describing his system. <br /><br />It fits well with the layered texture of Sha'rah and the abstruse philosophies of Fel and Ishy.<br /><br />It explains some of the trickier things: ghosts, bubbles of evil, why the DO loves (or loved) Chaos and a little bit about the other worlds behind the portal stones.  As with any theory, we can't push it too far, or it will go splat.  But as I'm currently considering, this mathematical understanding of the WOT jives well with my impression of ta'verens as whirlpools (or black holes) in, but not through the pattern.  I also tend to think that age laces can be likened to DNA and its practice of coiling about itself many times until a very intricate pattern (hmm...) emerges.  But those are topics for other posts.<br /><br />Whew.  Exhausted.<br /><br />TFK


created: 2003-06-07 12:29:31
subject: <b>Good I like it.</b>
body:
god job, makes sense. Is the Lord of Chaos, Rand or the DO? I always thought it was Rand. Umm so would that mean to achieve balance between the two halves, Saidin would have to grow stronger to overcome its disadvantage with the taint or are do the two halves not try to regain balance? Good job, kind of funny relating literature to math but good job.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> DarkKnight <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />&quot;What is, is, don't fight the past.&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2003-06-02 12:02:05
subject: <b>Egwene will be stilled</b>
body:
It is always mentioned here how Jordan does not mention something unless he is going to do it.  Well within the two books he mentions that one of the men (can't remember name) can fully heal a woman cut off from the source.  He is the opportunity for this to happen if the Tower is responsible for Egwene's Capture.  For Elaida will undoubtedly have her stilled for opposing the tower.  Gawyn on finding out will then rescue her.


created: 2003-06-02 12:09:25
subject: <b>Well laid out</b>
body:
Good theory.  Written this way it should almost be in the FAQ, rather than a theory post.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> My prophecy states that this prophecy will come true <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tinfoilhat.gif" border="0" /> My prophecy kicks your prophecy's butt <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tinfoilhat.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-06-02 15:00:19
subject: <b>I agree, but...</b>
body:
I never would've expected anyone but Tower Aes Sedai to be Egwene's captors. However, this theory does, I guess, disprove the one just posted about Beonin being the betrayer. If they got more than they bargained for, that implies that Egwene was not betrayed by anyone, but merely happened to be captured.<br /><br />I also think that this will be a good way for Gawyn to rescue Egwene. It is about time Gawyn comes back into the story. We haven't seen him since, like, what, <i>Lord of Chaos</i>? I'm not sure about Egwene being stilled. Who would heal her? Rand certainly doesn't know how, and she is not really connected with any other male channelers (especially one's that know how the Heal skillfully - unless I have huge memory gaps).<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">May you always walk in the Light,<br /><br />Adan, Jenn Aiel</font><p></p>


created: 2003-06-02 16:17:18
subject: <b>Rand wouldn't let her stay stilled.</b>
body:
No, Egwene has no connection to Damer Flinn (the Asha'man who healed stilling), but with Flinn being closely associated with Rand and Logain, as well as being bonded to an AS, he would definitely be called to heal Egwene.<br /><br />And the Rebel AS are about to find out about that anyway.  Remember the report Egwene received of the Yellow Ajah finding something out that caused quite a stir.  They sent sisters to investigate.  What would that be if not Damer?<br /><br />Anyway, just though I'd add in that she did not have to know Damer to be healed by him.  Of course I don't really think she will be stilled anyway.  Too much is about to happen for her to be stilled at the moment.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Fyatuk Loth<br />Pope Consort to Grand Mistress Krista Sedai<br />Minister to the Way of What<br />Warder to Egwene Dreamwalker (donate WSe please)<br /><br />Currently stalking Belals Girl.<br /><br />WTF?</font><p></p>


created: 2003-06-02 16:39:38
subject: <b>I don't understand this comment</b>
body:
&quot;If they got more than they bargained for, that implies that Egwene was not betrayed by anyone, but merely happened to be captured.&quot;<br /><br />No this implies they made a bargain with someone in order to get the information about Egwene's plan. Whoever told Egwene's plan to the Tower Aes Sedai would be betraying her, if only indirectly.<br />


created: 2003-06-02 16:41:20
subject: <b>uh</b>
body:
I agree with Adan i never really expected anyone but the Tower AS. Why would the black ajah capture Egwene one of the forsaken already has her under her thumb? and as for the seanchan that makes no sense because TV is already surrounded by an army, how could they take over the WT without the salidar AS noticing?<br /> i think its sad that CoT provided us with so little new information that we are reduced to arguing over the obvious. But i guess Adan is also right in saying this theory does refute the Beonin argument so good work there. <br />(As an aside i dont think she will be stilled either)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Whelp, I'm rich! So long losers who I've always hated.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-06-02 17:01:06
subject: <b>Rand &amp; Bargains</b>
body:
When the person said &quot;We go more than we bargained for.&quot; they are using a common phrase people use when getting better than they expected.  They knew someone was out there and they captured them.  But they NEVER suspected that the rebel Amyrlin herself would be out doing this.<br /><br />Also, with Rand some of the people beating him were Black Ajah.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Signed with the Sign that sells!</font><p></p>


created: 2003-06-02 18:21:49
subject: <b>No, I disagree totally...</b>
body:
... and that's scary because I am (at present) disagreeing with 98% of voters. Still here goes.<br /><br />I like the simplicity and importance of this theory (unlike some other rambling theories about peripheral characters), and think it is very well laid out. But I happen to disagree, sorry.<br /><br />1. I don't think the Tower has been taken over by the BA. As some one said above, what's the point? More conclusively, Mesaana said Elaida should not be removed as Amyrlin at least until Rand was captured, and probably not then (aCoS Prologue) - taking control of the Tower is obviously not necessary for the BA, and therefore has not happened. Indeed the idea it could have happened without RJ mentioning such a momentous event is not credible.<br /><br />2. Even less credible is the Seanchan taking control. When/how could they have done so? Tar Valon has never yet been taken from the outside, Egwene's army has been standing watching the city for 2 months without seeing any Seanchan army, and again it is incredible that RJ would not show the set-piece fight that this would involve.<br /><br />3. Turning to your arguments that the capturers could not be BA: you say the soldiers cannot be Darkfriends - why on earth not? After all, the Tower was taken over by Elaida with the help of &quot;builders&quot; recruited by Danelle (whom most people believe to be Mesaana, and is currently certainly the single most credible possibility), and Alviarin (i.e. Mesanna's proxy) has forced Elaida to agree to increasing the Tower guard (aCoS Ch.32) - the new members will presumably include more than a few Darkfriends.<br /><br />4. Also, consider the plot. If Elaida captures Egwene, she will be stilled - aCoS Prologue says this is the ONLY penalty for someone falsely claiming to be Amyrlin. (And yes I know Elaida lets Egwene off in Ch.32, but that is only in a dream - awake she knows and delights in the fact that Egwene will have to be stilled.) I do not believe this is a credible plot twist because a) nothing permanently bad happens to the main characters in this series, and b) Egwene is clearly too crucial to Tarmon Gaidon to lose her power. Being Healed by a woman would not help (she'd be way weaker) and I agree there is no credible / available male channeler to do it - the only possible candidate anyway is Flinn, who is with Cadsuane's lot, and a stilled Egwene would never be freed to wander off to them. Therefore it is inconsistent with everything we know about the plot for the non-BA Tower Aes Sedai (i.e. Elaida) to have captured Egwene. She has clearly been captured by the BA.<br /><br />5. Gawyn is not going to rescue her. Firstly (I can't remember where he is, but I am pretty sure) he is not in the Tower at the moment, and secondly if he were Elaida would find a way to have him killed (she has already issued secret orders to Galina to see to it in the operation to capture Rand, but Galina fluffed it). Thirdly there is no way he would be trusted enough now to help a helpless non-channeller to escape. There is also not the confusion there was in the Tower after the coup that allowed him to do so then with Siuan.<br /><br />6. Egwene was not supposed to be captured. It should have been Bode (except for Egwene's last minute change of plan) and this has a lot going for it within the plot: she is Mat's sister and can therefore be used by the BA to put more than a little pressure on him.<br /><br />7. Finally, to answer a later point, there has been no indication (unless I missed it) that Beonin is BA (ignore the &quot;Beonin's Betrayer&quot; theory - it's totally woolly, based on one of the most ambiguous quotes I've ever seen, and there are at least 3 more likely candidates as I say in my comments to that theory).<br /><br />So in conclusion: Egwene's been captured by the Black Ajah, who have NOT taken control of the Tower, and therefore will use her for their own nefarious ends. They probably initially expected and wanted Bode, probably to put pressure on Mat.<br /><br />


created: 2003-06-02 18:43:11
subject: <b>Spanking Rand and cuendillar-crazed Egwene</b>
body:
Galina was Back Ajah, but Erian, the one whose wardes were killed by rand, was not. I think... =)<br />The Aes Sedai should be able to use the One Power against male channelers considering that they have spent the last three thousand years hunting them. I think it's mentioned somewhere in the books.<br />As for the whole siege business. Why didn't they just gate<br />into Tar Valon? Elayne has got the entire Kin and that kickass Damane. A few pesky Aes Sedai wouldn't make a difference.


created: 2003-06-02 21:36:37
subject: <b>A couple of things...</b>
body:
First, we see Gawyn in CoT. He and most of the younglings are within a day of Tar Vallon.  They, I believe are the ones harrying the Rebel army.  <br /><br />Second, I can think of two great reason for the BA to capture an Amryln who is under the thumb of a forsaken.  One, the order could have come from Messanna, not Hallima (note, I have no evidence for this whatsoever).  Two, with Egwene captured, the seige is far less likely to be resolved any time soon, and there is nothing the forsaken would want more than a Tower that was still divided when TG begins.  The more chaos the better.  <br /><br />Third I have a great deal of difficulty accepting that using the power to intentionally dumping a boat in the middle of a harbor as deep as TV's must be in the middle of winter is anything but the power as a weapon.  I know that some have suggested that non BA Aes Sedai beating Rand proves that this is not the case.  I see these as two very different things.  Remember that the AS's were under orders to make sure that Rand was broken when he arived at TV.  The same logic that says that putting someone to the question is ok says that breaking someone's will is ok too.  Dumping three people into near freezing water is a different matter entirely.  Note that nothing was said about the guards and AS's fishing the oarsmen out of the water...


created: 2003-06-02 22:01:48
subject: <b>Good Theory, Sir Lancelittle</b>
body:
I agree, there is very little motive for the BA to capture Bode.  As i posted in Beonin Betrayal, the use of the tea to prevent Egwene`s {much less Bode`s} channelling  doesn`t make sense.  The very fact that channelling was used to sink the boat would make it much more likelier that  the BA would do the same to block her from the Source.<br /><br />Jeordanian, have you read Glimmers in CoT?  Gawyn with his Younglings are in a dairy village, Dorlan, just east of the River Erinin, with half of Bryne`s army between them and TV.{ Pgs 53-60}  Narenwin AS was sent by Elaida with orders for Gawyn and also those Sisters he had brought back from Dumai`s Well.  BTW. Narenwin was the AS who had Macura , THE FORKROOT WOMAN, as her Eyes and Ears.  We don`t know Gawyn`s orders, but the concensus, probably the Greater Concensus,ha- believe Gawyn is responsible for the hit and runs nightly at the flanks of Bryne`s army.<br /><br />Doktor Kosmos, The last thing in the world Egwene wants is a battle with the Tower AS.That would split the Tower permanantly.  She has rejected the same idea bt Bryne more than once.  ahe was unable to capture any boats for sinking, because the SAS Travelled to Dragonmount.  He is totally unaware of Egwene`s plans for cuendillar.  That was a well guarded secret, until she advised the Hall the day she did the deed.<br /><br />I like the Theory.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2003-06-02 23:16:26
subject: <b>Mundane Theory</b>
body:
First of all I agree with a lot of you this is a mundane theory. The only reason I posted it was I was tired of hearing so many theories based on strange people (The Seanchan, The Wild Ramaging Chicken Society) capturing Egwene. I was hoping that this would get most people to agree that Egwene was most likely held by the Tower so we can move on with our lives. Yes until the next book comes out their will be debate on whether the power was used as a weapon. My best response (that hasn't been given a million times already) is that the defintion of a weapon is<br /><br />&quot;An instrument of attack or defense in combat...&quot; - dictionary.com<br /><br />This certainly was not combat. I have also seen definitions that claim a weapon is defined based on its ability to kill, and since this was not used to kill it would not be considered a weapon by that defintion either. The Tower could simply be using one of these definitions.<br /><br />


created: 2003-06-03 10:07:16
subject: <b>Misunderstanding</b>
body:
I think some people are misunderstanding the quote about &quot;getting more than they bargained for.&quot;<br /><br />It means that, whoever it was who captured egwene, they knew about the plan to turn the chain to cuendillar. BUT they didn't know it was gonna be egwene to do it. <br /><br />THUS they knew they were gonna catch someone in the act, but they thought it was gonna be some plain old Aes Sedai or Accepted.<br /><br />When they captured the Amyrlin of the Salidar Aes Sedai, they got more than they had expected they would, or, &quot;more than they had bargained for&quot;<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>&quot;Those who beat their swords into plowshares will plow for those who don't.&quot; - Thomas Jefferson</i><br /><br /> PSUCOM Class of '09</font><p></p>


created: 2003-06-03 16:09:56
subject: <b>About Egwene's possible stilling,</b>
body:
I'd just like to add that Nynaeve could Heal it, couldn't she?! I mean, she Healed Leane and Logain and everyone else, so why not Egwene!?!?!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Isabel <br />-Is determined to live up to her Canadian heritage...PARTY!<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />-Will read every WoT book Jordan spits out, even if they get worse. So there.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/crazy.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-06-03 20:27:49
subject: <b>Because...</b>
body:
...if a woman heals a woman she comes back MUCH weaker (like Siuan and Leane). Egwene is unlikely to be rendered relatively powerless for the sake of the plot. The only way for a woman to be healed back to full power is by a man.


created: 2003-06-03 20:55:23
subject: <b>I disagree</b>
body:
I'm sorry but your theory does not convince me that it was the tower Aes Sedai and not the Black Ajah.  First off the arguemnt someone else made the statement that the Black Ajah wouldn't capture Egwene because she was already being moderately influenced by Halima.  This statement is most likely true; however, two things.  The black ajah may not know anything about Halima and they were not expecting Egwene.  Still the It would be advantageous to the BA if they captured a rebel and were able to use her to gain information about the rebel camp, particularly since the seige prevents easy communication between the BA in the tower and the BA in the rebel camp.  <br /><br />    Lancelitte, one of your main arguments against the BA is the idea that the OP was not used as a weapon in this case.  Specifically, you say, &quot;it has been previously shown that Aes Sedai can get around this rule if they don&#8217;t see their channeling as a direct threat to the person's life&quot;.  This statement is just wrong.  Any threat to life, directly or indirectly caused by the channeling is forbidden.  How do we know this because Jordan explains it to us earlier in the book.  On page 393 of the hard cover edition Jordan gives us a innermonologue of Egwene's where she is considering using the OP on ships trying to enter the harbor.  Specifically, putting holes in the hull or setting the deck on fire.  He writes: &quot;Even one death would make what she did using the Power as a weapon...A sister who had sworn on the Oath Rod would not be able to MAKE herself set those weaves, perhaps not even to form them, unless she could convice herself she was in immdieate danger from teh ships.&quot;(Jordan's emphasis)  Since we all agree that the captors knew what the person in the boat would doing and that the sister would not even be aware of their presence it is impossible that they could believe they were in immediate danger.  No this was the work of someone not bound by the three oaths.  <br /><br />   I know Jordan can be a fan of misdirection, but this is not his style.  Remember he is also a fan of leaving clues for us to use when he presents us with a mystery.  That is what I believe the passage on page 393 is.


created: 2003-06-03 21:43:01
subject: <b>It could still have been the Black</b>
body:
... if the DO simply told Halima that was what he wanted. It wouldn't be the first time the DO gave up a position of power for the grand plan, and Halima is in no position to think of her own power, only the DO's plans.


created: 2003-06-04 02:18:46
subject: <b>Response</b>
body:
Well first of all the quote about one death making it a weapon means that along as you can assure that the person won't die it isn't a weapon (or at least that is one interpretation) so as long as channeler could be sure Egwene would survive it wouldn't be a violation of the oaths.<br /><br />actually one of the major points seems to get very little attention. I clame the presence of the soldiers is a major indicator that the black ajah is not involved. I think we can all agree that if it is the BA all the soldiers in the background would have to be DFs. In the past though the BA has worked as alone as possible however they allow soldiers to crowd around. Remember how little respect many Ba members have for non channelers. Why would they allow so many soldiers (who can't really be trusted) to see what is going on.


created: 2003-06-04 05:18:09
subject: <b>re response</b>
body:
&quot;as long as the person survives&quot;<br />more than one person on the boat, Egwene wasnm't doing the rowing herself.  What happened to them? If they were not rescued, then it must be BA doing the operation, as would be breaking oaths otherwise.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Moridin/Ishamael's spiritual advisor.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-green.gif" border="0" /> Jedi Knight <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-green.gif" border="0" /><br />Proud Warder to Tatayana and Lanfear81.<br />In love with a beautiful English lady.<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-06-04 16:09:28
subject: <b>Seanchan attacking the White Tower</b>
body:
Hi, this is my first post in this forum so please bear over with me if this has been mentioned before somewhere...<br /><br />I agree that Egwene was captured by AS, not the Seanchan. It is even spelled out: &quot;That's it, girl, the Aes Sedai said encouragingly&quot;.<br />However, it might not matter much which faction it was, since it is quite likely that the Seanchan are indeed just about to attack the tower. I quote this from CoT, on the very same page as where Egwene is captured:<br />&quot;Egwene looked ahead&quot; ... &quot;Something flashed across the moon, and her breath caught. For an instant, she thought it has been a Draghkar, an evil sight on this of all nights. Only a bat, she decided. Spring might be near enough for bats to be venturing out.&quot;<br />So she sees something flying in the night, and concludes that it must have been a bat even though the season doesn't quite fit. Isn't it likely that what she sees is actually a to'raken carrying Seanchan troops into TV, as we have seen them do earlier in the books in other cities?<br />I really, really doubt that RJ would put this into the text at this point unless it's not really a bat..


created: 2003-06-05 05:12:43
subject: <b>Of course I agree with you</b>
body:
It was just a too conspicious act for the BA: many soldiers, at least two Aes Sedai, they are not in a hurry etc. Especially if they only expected an average Aes Sedai or Accepted not Egwene (and that it clear from the quote) the BA would never take the risk! <br /><br />The BA didn't know that it was Egwene and only the WT had a real reason to catch a Rebel Aes Sedai (the BA has already members in the Rebel camp).      <br /><br />Though by chance one of the Aes Sedai could be BA of course. But the plan was certainly betrayed to the White Tower Aes Sedai.


created: 2003-06-05 12:00:46
subject: <b>As to the Seanchan . . .</b>
body:
Didn't Egwene see 'something' fly across the moon?  She thought it might be a Drakghar,but it could be a raken or to'raken with the Seanchan ready to start the invasion.  Maybe that's Egwene's ticket out of the Tower (because I do believe that she was captured by TAS).  The cunfusion in Tar Valon and the Tower will allow Egwene to escape with a Seanchan woman soldier (The one she saw in her dream).<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Brianne Aes Sedai, First Weaver of the Yellow Ajah<br />Bonded to Daniel Gaidin<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />High Priestess of academic theories<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" />Amyrlin Seat of the Wheel of Time Club in Oklahoma City<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /> <br />'Helluo librorum'<br />'Bene legere saecla vincere.' <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-06-05 13:23:14
subject: <b>One problem, early on...as to secrecy</b>
body:
One of your arguments against Egwene's captors being the BA was that they would have needed to capture her under secrecy. You asked why the BA would need lanterns at all--well the lanterns are precisely for the purpose of secrecy. <br /><br />After all, they'd be trying to hide it from the Tower Ajah. Now, if you're an Aes Sedai looking out for the BA, what's going to seem more suspicious to you; a bunch of people out with lanterns on a dark nite escorting somebody out of a boat, or a group of lonely women wandering around channelling where nobody has any business to be channelling? Remember, anybody in the White Tower who could channel would sense it--and that would be very secret at all, now would it?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Regardless of whether the glass is 'half full' or 'half empty,' half of it is definitely in my tummy--and if I'm lucky, it's beer.&quot;<br />-A Very Wise Man</font><p></p>


created: 2003-06-05 15:53:26
subject: <b>some thoughts I haven't heard before</b>
body:
Maybe we should approach the problem from a different angle.  Much can be determined from the fact that the capture of Egwene was due to a bargain of some sort.<br /><br />There are two questions here. Who are the tower AS who captured Egwene? Who are the rebels that betrayed Egwene?  One thing that we can say about these two parties is that they BOTH can't be darkfriends.  Darkfriends don't bargain with each other.<br /><br />This brings us to another important question about the bargain.  What are both sides bargaining for?  <br /><br /><b>Tower AS motive</b><br /><br />We will start with the Tower AS.  It is doubtful that a randon AS would have useful information about what the rebels are doing.  That leaves two possibilities: they are there to stop the cuendillarization or they are trying to steal the many weaving secrets (including hopefully travelling) from the rebel AS.<br /><br />It is doubtful that the AS were trying to stop the cuendillarization since they failed and don't seem to be bothered by it.  They even think they got better than they bargained for.  They might not have even known about the cuendillarization process at all.  Therefore it is reasonable to suppose that they are bargaining for knowledge about chanelling.<br /><br />But Alviarin seems to want to keep both the BA and the tower AS in the dark about these weaves (else she would teach them herself.)  Using this logic it is doubtful that the capturers were BA.  (Mesaana has little need of information since Alviarin knows every BA in the rebel camp.)  Conclusion: <i>The BA have no motive for capturing a rebel AS</i><br /><br /><b>the rebel traitor's motive</b><br /><br />Using a similar logic the rebel betrayer was most likely not a DF.  Halima has a lot of other methods of dealing with the problem.  Having the tower AS capture a rebel AS would give too much advantage to the WT.  They would possibly learn how to travel and a lot of other stuff that would help the tower AS out.  <br /><br />So what motive could the rebel betrayer have.  There are as many as the possible betrayers.  In order of most likely to least likely.<br /><br />Nicola: knowledge.  If you can't get them to teach you capture one and force them to teach you.<br /><br />A rebel hall member: they could be a mole for the WT.  Alternatively they could be trying to embarass Egwene.<br /><br />Halima/Delana:  trying to prevent cuendillarization of the chains.<br /><br />A high ranking member of Gareth Bryne's army:  Greed.<br /><br />Personally I think that Nicola is the most likely suspect.  If she has enough contacts with Gareth Bryne and/or other spies watching the rebels.  She doesn't even have to know why they are leaving only when.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">RabidWombat<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> Let the Lord of Rambling Thoughts rule <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> Proud owner of a 2 star rating! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /> Someone stole all my cookies <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-06-05 18:32:22
subject: <b>Huh?</b>
body:
&quot;Getting more than you bargained for&quot; is a normal figure of speech, and as a figure of speech has absolutely nothing to do with a bargain, as many people have already pointed out. You've built an argument on completely missing the point.


created: 2003-06-05 23:30:34
subject: <b>the use of power</b>
body:
Many earlier posts stated that it could not possibly be non-BA AS that used the power to overturn the boat. Others have said that they just have to NOT considerate a weapon. Well the easiest way to do that would to be not to aim at the boat. If the AS simply focused some air strings down into the river she would create a small tidal wave. That wave could overturn a small boat. Opps, did she do that. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/oh.gif" border="0" /> That way she didn't really mean to kill any of the oarmen, they just died. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> DarkKnight <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />&quot;What is, is, don't fight the past.&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2003-06-06 12:17:56
subject: <b>On bargains</b>
body:
The term 'more than we have bargained for' could be a figure of speech as you mentioned.  RJ generally uses different figures of speech in WoT than we do, though.<br /><br />In any case most of my argument remains intact even without a bargain.  It is still likely that the WT had some help from a traitor with the rebels.  The capture of an AS makes it likely that rebel technology will pass to the towers hand.  Neither Halima, nor Mesaana want this, therefore they are not likely suspects to be behind the capture.  The capturers seem unaware of Egwene's plan to cuendillarize the chain.  None of these things depend on a bargain, per se.  <br /><br />My argument still stands!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">RabidWombat<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> Let the Lord of Rambling Thoughts rule <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> Proud owner of a 2 star rating! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /> Someone stole all my cookies <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cries.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-06-06 18:28:40
subject: <b>Cuendillar</b>
body:
By the way, has anyone worked out why she's turning the chains to cuendillar? I thought she wanted to break into the harbours, and those chains will never break now. Conceivably it's because cuendillar is so heavy the chains won't be able to be raised, but I don't recall anyone ever mentioning that it was notably heavy.<br /><br />Can someone enlighten me?


created: 2003-06-06 22:54:17
subject: <b>Simple</b>
body:
She wanted the chains to prevent ships from leaving the harbor. She doesn't want to break into the harbor. She is attempting to cut off the supplies from Tar Valon. They are able to do it from across the bridges, but with their jump from the southern part of Andor, Gareth was unable to bring up any ships to sink in the harbor, therefore the chains can be used to stop ships since the chains are unbreakable. That forces the WT to make the first move, they need food and cannot Travel yet. To get food they need to leave the WT or surrender. To leave they have to go through Egwene's army, so Egwene is hoping that it will cause them to surrender. Hope that helps to explain.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> DarkKnight <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />&quot;What is, is, don't fight the past.&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2003-06-08 19:55:19
subject: <b>Actually</b>
body:
...I think she may have done it to protect the Tower from the Seachan too. Once she is in there, they can travel to get out, but the Seachan can't attack by ship. And we know she never really intended to attack the tower, she wants to join up peacefully.


created: 2003-06-09 01:19:30
subject: <b>I like this theory</b>
body:
Although here is my explanation for it. Elaida has the sisters hunting the Black Ajahs in the Tower, and while doing this they did uncover a few sisters from Egwenes camp that were acting as eyes and ears. I can see them taking this information that may have been given to them from these sisters. That was what I figured out, I may be wrong but it seems like this is the answer to me. Also if you really want to bring up the whole Bargain thing, the only people i know to realy bargain for anything is the sea folk, and if I remember correctly didn't one of them leave for the tower with a sister? Hmm eye for an eye maybe, just wasn't expecting Egwene, but I will stick with the sisters that are driving out the Black Ajah and the rebels for that matter, and making them report to them by use of the oath rod.


created: 2003-06-09 05:48:20
subject: <b>few points..</b>
body:
Since anything the Black Ajah does in the tower has to be done secretly we can assume they would not allow soldiers to crowd around.  It could be argued that all the soldiers were all Friends of the Dark but why would the Black Ajah need them there; they would only attract attention especially carrying lanterns. This shows it is extremely unlikely the Black Ajah captured Egwene.<br />Except AS hanging around outside tower would be even more suspicious.  BA would need soldiers just to give credibility, plus depending on what the soldiers see, they need not know that the sisters are BA.  After all, if normal Tower Ajah could do it, then if BA did same activities would not look suspicious.<br />Given BA need to do thigns secretively, yes , doesn't mean they can't do things in open, like Galina and her lot with the AS with Rand, L?? (BA) and her 12, who took Egwene etc straight out of tower.  Given everyone in tower is pretty secretive atm, no particular one would necessarily stand out.  <br />Another possible motive - to capture someone from Egwene's camp.  Given all prior evidence&lt; I think you're overstating the ocmmunication between Darkfriends.  Given Mesaana hasn't turned up for a meeting for a while, does she even know what Halima is up to?  So, obviously to set the trap they need at least one person betraying from other side, but could increase numbers, capture a person, assemble 13 fades... then let person finish job with cuendallirsing the chains and returning to the camp.  Nice insider then, and now they have the head, even better if can convert her to the dark.  So definately motive there I feel.<br /><br />They could capture person, then tell soldiers they're taking her somewhere 'safe', no soldier is going to question an AS.  <br />One thing that could be vital, is what happened to the oarsmen, which you seem to avoid addressing, perhaps because Jordan doesn't say what happened to them. But, if they are killed, the captors must be BA, no equivocating will bypass the oath on the rod to that extent, but if they aren't killed, the captors oculd be BA or TA.<br />All in all, I think it is uncertain, but I think your arguments are weak and flawed.  I think on the evidence available, it can only be a RAFO issue.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Moridin/Ishamael's spiritual advisor.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-green.gif" border="0" /> Jedi Knight <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-green.gif" border="0" /><br />Proud Warder to Tatayana and Lanfear81.<br />In love with a beautiful English lady.<br /></font><p></p>


