# w_comment

created: 2005-01-05 17:07:45
subject: <b>One Problem</b>
body:
You claim that the horn would have been used to protect the channelers, I think there are 2 problems with that statement.<br /><br />1) RJ said (New Spring answers) that a prophecy said that the horn needed to be sealed in the eye. The prophecy should have known that the eye would not be used for the purpose the Aes Sedai thought and thus would not have required the horn to be there to protect the channelers<br /><br />2) The horn was not recovered until after the eye was used. It seems like the saidin seperated the horn from everything so the horn couldn't be used until after the saidin was.<br /><br />Other than that, I agree with you completely.


created: 2005-01-05 17:17:29
subject: <b>Response</b>
body:
1.  I repeat: if Saidin could not be cleansed without the evil of Shadar Logoth, how was the Saidin in the Eye cleansed in the first place?  This took place before Aridhol was a glint in its Mordeth's daddy's eye.  Thus it is obvious that the Taint is cleansable even without Shadar Logoth, even if only in (relatively) small amounts.<br /><br />2.  It's kind of a lame plot device to fall back on the Wheel's inherent capacity for self-preservation.  If whatever needs to happen, will happen, where's the suspense?<br /><br />3.  In any direct sense, it was not the Wheel that created the Eye, but some forward-thinking Aes Sedai.  My problem with theory is that if these Aes Sedai (a) knew the world was going to hell in a handbasket, (b) knew how to stop it, even if only eventually, (c) created the Eye to do so, and (d) used the Eye to store stuff that would be needed, then it seems strange that such smart, practical folk would not have given any hints to the DR (or whoever) who would come along and do the saving.<br /><br />4.  As to the rotting wood analogy -- The theory suggested the pure Saidin in the Eye was basically stored away so that sometime in the future, the hole could be repaired.  Fine.  If that is true, why couldn't the Aes Sedai have done the dirty work as soon as the Eye was full and some more male channelers could be found (IIRC the guys died to create the Eye)?  If the whole reason for creating the Eye was that pure Saidin was needed to repair the hole AND the Aes Sedai did not believe or suspect that Saidin could be cleansed, then no male channelers in the future would be better than those in the present; they would all be going insane because of the Taint.  Logic suggests that sealing the Bore then, when the Aes Sedai knew how (according to the theory) AND were still relatively organized and well-trained (being AoL types at the beginning of the Breaking), would be the best plan.  It would not make sense to wait around (if you knew civilization was starting to decay) for somebody in the future to do it.<br /><br />Finally, I'm not one who thinks the use of the Eye was the BIG MISTAKE RJ hinted at.  I was merely pointing out that all the Eye-Mistake believers out there should disagree with theory on that basis alone.<br /><br /><br />It is my hope that this post begs less assiduously for those disparaging comments that have so mercilessly and left-handedly been withheld.<br /><br /><br /><br />TFK


created: 2005-01-06 08:23:31
subject: <b>Responses</b>
body:
I don't agree entirely with this theory, but I think some of the rebuttals are kind of lame<br /><br />Why didn't the AS give a manual? <br />They did, it's called the prophecies<br /><br />Why didn't they use the Eye themselves?<br />RJ staed they all died making it, dead people don't do  a lot of channeling unless they're resurrected forsaken.


created: 2005-01-06 11:02:43
subject: <b>Good, but you missed a couple points</b>
body:
To  Lanfears Last Chance:<br /><br />First the Aes Sedai in the AoL had several really big problem. First the patch created only used Saidin. This is because the women refused to help LTT fix the problem, so he had to go with plan B (and we all know plan B is never as good a plan A =) ). Second when LTT sealed the DO's prison, he used cuendillar as focal points (which were unbreakable).<br /><br />This means that even if the AoL Aes Sedai knew how to fix the DO&#8217;s prison properly, they could not do it because they could not remove seal placed there by LTT. Did they know the seals would eventually rot away? Maybe, maybe not. The point is they could not break the newly made cuendillar.<br /><br />Second The reason the dragon banner was placed with the horn was because it is needed to lead the dead heros. Reread the last chapters of The Great Hunt.<br /><br />All and all I think you are close. I disagree on some of your points about what the AoL Aes Sedia knew and their motivations, but I am just guessing there. I still like it though.<br /><br /><br />To The Fisher King:<br /><br />{QUOTE}1. I repeat: if Saidin could not be cleansed without the evil of Shadar Logoth, how was the Saidin in the Eye cleansed in the first place? This took place before Aridhol was a glint in its Mordeth's daddy's eye. Thus it is obvious that the Taint is cleansable even without Shadar Logoth, even if only in (relatively) small amounts.{QUOTE}<br /><br />The difference between cleansing Saidin for the EotW and at Shadar Logoth, was what they did with the taint. The Aes Sedai i think used themselves as sinks, which caused their deaths (This is the reason they knew they would die creating the eye). In Rands case he used Shadar Logoth as the sink for the taint. Otherwise he would have died just like the AoL Aes Sedai. So you are right, it is possible for any Asha'man to cleanse a small amount of Saidin, but the taint has to go somewhere. Unless you have a convenent place like Shada Logoth, then the taint is absorbed by the person channelling the Saidin.<br /><br />{QUOTE}2. It's kind of a lame plot device to fall back on the Wheel's inherent capacity for self-preservation. If whatever needs to happen, will happen, where's the suspense?{QUOTE}<br /><br />Maybe you should not read the Wheel of Time because that is a major theme in the books. &quot;The wheel weaves as the wheel wills.&quot; Ta'varen? Sound familiar? I remember reading somewhere that one of the reasons RJ wrote this series was to explore what happen when someone had no choose in there fate.<br /><br />{QUOTE}4. As to the rotting wood analogy -- The theory suggested the pure Saidin in the Eye was basically stored away so that sometime in the future, the hole could be repaired. Fine. If that is true, why couldn't the Aes Sedai have done the dirty work as soon as the Eye was full and some more male channelers could be found (IIRC the guys died to create the Eye)? If the whole reason for creating the Eye was that pure Saidin was needed to repair the hole AND the Aes Sedai did not believe or suspect that Saidin could be cleansed, then no male channelers in the future would be better than those in the present; they would all be going insane because of the Taint. Logic suggests that sealing the Bore then, when the Aes Sedai knew how (according to the theory) AND were still relatively organized and well-trained (being AoL types at the beginning of the Breaking), would be the best plan. It would not make sense to wait around (if you knew civilization was starting to decay) for somebody in the future to do it.{QUOTE}<br /><br />The Aes Sedai could not fix it then and there because they could not remove the seals place by LTT. So even if they knew how to make a good patch, they did not know how to intall it.<br /><br />gandalf79


created: 2005-01-07 14:41:00
subject: <b>hey Gadalf</b>
body:
&quot;The difference between cleansing Saidin for the EotW and at Shadar Logoth, was what they did with the taint. The Aes Sedai i think used themselves as sinks, which caused their deaths (This is the reason they knew they would die creating the eye). In Rands case he used Shadar Logoth as the sink for the taint. Otherwise he would have died just like the AoL Aes Sedai. So you are right, it is possible for any Asha'man to cleanse a small amount of Saidin, but the taint has to go somewhere. Unless you have a convenent place like Shada Logoth, then the taint is absorbed by the person channelling the Saidin.&quot;<br /><br />First.  Either you can use a &quot;place&quot; as a sink hole or you can't.  The nature of the place should not limit your ability to use it.  Clearly you can, so either the AOL AS didn't know how to channel saidin without it passing through their bodies or they were not willing to accept the consequences.  A potentially bad consequence would be another Blight that they couln't contain. <br /><br />Second.  One question that has never been answered is if the Taint has diminished since the Breaking.  It was definitely a finite amount present.  If it has diminished, then in the AOL it could have taken even longer to cleanse and as the female CK melted under these circumstances it is unlikely that it could have held out any longer or that the channelers could have for that matter in those circumstances.<br /><br />Third.  The only reason you could even assume that Shadar Logoth was necessary is if you believe that the Taint was recycled with saidin.  Points that speak against this being true are things like sickness and disease which accompany channeling saidin, as well as Rand's wound full of the TP evil.  It seems by virtue of its lasting negative effects that the taint binds itself to the physical &quot;sinks&quot; it passes through whether in a channelers body or into another object or entity (the Way's for example).  Another point against the taint being recycled is in the Eye of the World when Moiraine channels Saidar in the Ways.  The taint that is embedded in the Ways affects her weaves.  This indicates that the taint was adhering to saidar a half of the One Power.  It is attracted to saidar but notice it doesn't  suddenly get transported onto the female half of the source which it would have to do if you believe the taint is more attacted to the Source that it is to physical &quot;sinks&quot; like the Ways.<br /><br />The main points being that if the taint was recycled with saidin then its effects would only last as long as you were channeling or at the most a relative time afterwords.  Strange circumstances like the Ways which you could claim was a constantly &quot;channeling&quot; entity would allow the Taint to be transfered to saidar meaning both weilders would be affected.  Except there would be no real consequence if this were true, just something like Rand's &quot;channeling sickness&quot; which is a temporary impairment due to channeling.  So since there clearly are severe and lasting consequences the taint it can't be recycling.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where did these Skimmers come from?  I mean if they didn't want to read the book they could have just Traveled to another author.  Why risk arriving at the wrong destination?  Why risk falling into darkness?</font><p></p>


created: 2005-01-07 14:52:45
subject: <b>...</b>
body:
I was going to point out that the heroes of the horn would not follow the hornsounder without the dragon banner to lead them, but that point was made already. (thank you).<br /><br />I wondered if the cuendillar &quot;seals&quot; were in existance already and LTT just used them, or if he convinced some females to help make them for his purposes since they are obviously made by both male and female channelers working together (white half from the female, black half from the male).  Perhaps the female AS were just not willing to go out there and put their necks on the line, but didn't mind helping a few hundred men die trying.  Blah.  Now I'm upset with the female AS.  I mean, some were obviously willing to die creating the Eye AFTER they'd a perfect &quot;roof patching&quot; impossible... how selfish.<br /><br />Interesting theory.  I'm not sure if I agree with it because I still havn't decided exactly why I think the Eye was created (besides to guard the horn/banner).  I don't think using the Eye was the big mistake RJ is talking about, though.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /> Survivor of Historical Inquizition ... barely <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Who can say if I've been changed for the better, but because I knew you I have been changed for good -- Wicked<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-01-08 03:10:13
subject: <b>The taint</b>
body:
I think the taint is both recycled and absorbed by the channeler. I think it is obvious if you look at any of the numerous descriptions from a male who is channeling that at least some of the taint is absorbed by the person. Rand says numerous times that after he releases Saidin that he can feel the taint seeping into his bones or that it is somehow left behind. If it weren&#8217;t left behind, how else would you explain the madness, rotting flesh, or the other consequences of channeling Saidin? <br /><br />This leave the question, does some of the taint pass through the channeler, and if so does it go back to the source (get &quot;recycled&quot; ) or does it just disappear. My opinion is that it stays with saidin. The reason I think this is because of The Ways. The Ways eventually became corrupted because they were made with Saidin. If all of the taint that is picked when channeling Saidin stayed with the person, then all of the flows and everything created with them would be taint free. But this cannot be the case because the taint within The Ways disproves it.<br /><br />The next question is what happens to the taint that is not absorbed by the channeler? I think Saidin is like energy, it is neither created nor destroyed, it is only changed from one for to another. If this is true then anything and everything created by Saidin would be tainted. The only reason we can&#8217;t see the effect of the taint on casual Saidin use is because it takes time for the taint do its damage. For example The Ways; no one noticed the taint at first. It took thousands of years for the decay with in the ways to be notice and hundreds more before they became the blackness of we currently see. In contrast, everyday uses don&#8217;t last long enough for the taint to do its thing. Most weaves are created and released within a short period of time, and even the longer lasting weaves are not left in place for very long. <br /><br />The only notable exception I can think if is the protective barrier around Callandor. This is the only thing I can think of right now that was created after LTT sealed the DO&#8217;s prison. The only explanation I can think of is the Aes Sedai who created it must have cleansed the Saidin that they used as they created the barrier (the eye is proof that they knew how to do this). And the reason they did not die is because they did not have to work through as much of the taint as they did when they created they Eye of the World.<br /><br />Given the above conclusions I can&#8217;t imagine the taint that is left on the weave would just disappear, stay in the world, or go back to the DO. The only place for it to go is back to the source or in other words &#8220;recycled.&#8221;<br /><br />Now, why did Rand&#8217;s trick at Shadar Logoth work? My guess is once the taint entered the city it was unable to escape for the same reason the evil already there was unable to escape, and consequently the taint was unable to return to the source. The reason Rand was unaffected by the taint is another topic entirely, but he is still alive, which is proof enough for me that he was protected in some way.<br /><br />gandalf79


created: 2005-01-08 03:57:40
subject: <b>Seals and diminished taint</b>
body:
To dilirah:<br /><br />I think it is reasonable to assume that the cuendillar disks were made before the seals because they had to be made with males and females. This is because it is very clear that only men worked on creating the seal and women refused to help. I also dought any women would be hanging around THE PIT OF DOOM to help make the disks that were used as the focus points, and they would have needed the focus points before they could start I think.<br /><br />To Onarishma:<br /><br />I forgot to talk about any reduction in the taint. <br /><br />Lets imagine there is giant lake that represents the True Source, and that there is a thin layer of oil floating on top. To drink the water we have to drink some of the oil too. Now if at the time of the breaking there are a bunch of male Aes Sedai drinking from this lake and they eventually die from the oil from this oil. After all the initial set of men die from drinking at this lake we only have a couple of people drink from this lake, and they all eventually die too. Now the amount of oil on top of lake has decreased some, but relative to the amount you started with. No one can tell that anything has been lost, because it does not take much to kill a person. This would be a good analogy for the taint and Saidin. There must have been a finite amount; otherwise it would have been impossible to remove all of the taint or at least to the point that it is undetectable. If there is some taint left in Saidin then at least it is in small enough amounts that very few people if anyone will die. That would be like leaving 1 qt of oil on our giant lake. Yes it is still contaminated but you could still drink form it and experience little to no problems even though you are still drinking the oil.<br />


created: 2005-01-10 13:46:34
subject: <b>My opinion on the Ways</b>
body:
I will start off by saying that I understand your point of view.  One of the reasons I don't agree with you however is that I don't think the taint on the ways is a result of its original creation.  From the discription of the Ways I have always been under the impression that they were an organism.  A living creature that could become diseased and &quot;mad&quot;.  And even if you did not believe the ways are alive I would still be inclined to believe that they are constantly drawing on saidin.  Meaning that the taint is constantly being deposited there like it would be in a channeling male.<br /><br />I also would like to agree that the initial taint was probably not diminished by channelers to any real degree after the breaking.  Though my opinion on the Ways could keep the idea of a significant reduction of the Taint on the table.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where did these Skimmers come from?  I mean if they didn't want to read the book they could have just Traveled to another author.  Why risk arriving at the wrong destination?  Why risk falling into darkness?</font><p></p>


created: 2005-01-10 14:32:19
subject: <b>To fisher king</b>
body:
&quot;Second, if I'm one of these brilliant Aes Sedai planning this whole time-capsule-to-save-the-world business, I'd put an instruction manual in it. (And maybe a 6-year-old to read and use it, like programming VCRs) This would have been prudent if they truly were creating the Eye to hedge against future use&quot;.<br /><br />They tried to pass the knowledge on through generations.<br /><br />&quot;Fourth, if the AoL Aes Sedai could have resealed the Bore with some male channelers of questionable sanity, why wouldn't they have done so? It's not like male channelers would get any safer to work with in the future. Quite the opposite, I would imagine.&quot;<br /><br />The world was just recovering from a mayor war and they didn&#8217;t want to risk releasing the DO on the wounded world for he would surely conquer it comppletly. They weren&#8217;t sure they would succeed and just took there chances with LTT&#8217;s temporary solution and made the eye as long term plan to make sure that when the seals failed the world at least would stand a chance.<br />


created: 2005-01-13 20:16:33
subject: <b>The Eye was not used prematurely</b>
body:
I would just point out that the prophecy having to do with Falme involved the Horn.  The Eye had to be used to obtain the Horn.  If the pool of Saidin was to be used as the end-all to reseal the Bore, then it stands to reason that it would be used DURING the Last Battle.  If the Eye had been used at that time, how would the prophicies at Falme ever have been fulfilled.


created: 2005-01-21 02:35:38
subject: <b>good theory</b>
body:
The one thing that always bathered me is how did Bathymel and Aginor find the eye right after they were released from the bore. Was their need great enough to allow them entry? If not then why didn'r Ishy use in the preceeding 3000 years?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> Wolfbrother <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /> Steadfast Defender of the Light <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-01-21 18:05:12
subject: <b>To Perrin</b>
body:
I think that they sensed and followed Mat's dagger. After all it was reason why Mat and Rand met so many dfs b4 they reached Caemlyn and Forsaken should have had even better ability to sense that than average darkpal.


created: 2005-08-05 05:58:02
subject: <b>Taint and Cleansing</b>
body:
The taint wasn't removed by putting it into a &quot;sink&quot;. It was destroyed by the evil of Aridhol. The Dark One's evil (like the wound on Rand's side made by Ishamael) was opposite to the evil of SHadar Logoth (like the wound by Fain's dagger on Rand's side). The two evils are drawn to one another, and counter one another. When a suficient amount of Saidin was channeled into Shadar Logoth, the taint began moving independently, drawn to the taint of Shadar Logoth like opposite poles of a magnet. When all of the Dark One's taint, and all of Mordeth's Taint were confined like that, the negated each other (and incidentally took Shadar Logoth along with it). <br /><br />Also, I think that the Aes Sedai that made the Eye of the World were unable to use any old Male Channeler(s) to aid them  in sealing the Bore permanantly because they had to use one of great strength (i.e. the Dragon Reborn).<br /><br />Just the thoughts of one who thinks too much...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">- Tylamon</font><p></p>


created: 2005-01-06 07:35:02
subject: <b>Great thory!</b>
body:
I just want to say that you really impressed me with this theory... it is really great! it really makes sens that shaidar haran will lead the forces of evil... he has really not made much sens to me before this. thx for making it clearer to me <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perplexed.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smackhead.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /> LLT <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-01-06 08:30:48
subject: <b>Possible, but ...</b>
body:
to me this end would seem too much like a cheap Tolkien rip-off, the way Sauron and the Ringwraiths die when Frodo detroys the ring. Though RJ may make jokes about it, like 'mr Underhill', I think he doesn't want to ape Tolkien.


created: 2005-01-06 09:04:49
subject: <b>Yes</b>
body:
I agree with most of the theory, but I do not think SH will link with other shadowspawn.<br /><br />I think it will be Narishma who defeats SH, at dawn.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br />Reading is lighter than a feather, waiting is heavier than a mountain<br /><font color="white">_____</font><b>-Maginor</b><br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-01-06 10:24:38
subject: <b>Hmm...</b>
body:
The problem as I see it is that the situations we've seen SH in don't match up with him being some super-shadowspawn general (not that we've really seen anything regarding leadership of the shadowspawn army). Frankly, I see this job falling to Demandred. It seems to me that SH's main purpose is to bring together the shadow's leadership. Something akin to a CEO or Chairmain of the Board with a security thrown in. <br /><br />But your idea could be true. <br /><br />Another point - in the prophesies somewhere there is a statement regarding TG being over, but 'world not finished with battle'. This is often thought to refer to the ongoing fight to destroy the remaining shadowspawn and DF's.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Need a book to read - check out my blog for ideas.</font><p><a href="http://nethspace.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">Neth Space</a></p><p></p>


created: 2005-01-06 10:43:31
subject: <b>Just a super-general?</b>
body:
Nobody else will be so good in the role of the bearer of the Big Black Banner as Shaidar Haran, that's true. But there is too much in Shaidar Haran about the degree of presence of DO in the world, for Shaidar Haran to be unrelated to the main purpose of DO in Shayol Ghul during the Last Battle. SH is too much related to DO's process to treat in the world, he is somehow metaphysically part of this process. SH being super-general outside Shayol Ghul would be beneath SH's potential IMO.<br /><br />And SH mentioning his unability of moving away from Shayol Ghul still can be rather another indication of SH's role in enlarging the degree of DO's presense in the world.


created: 2005-01-06 11:01:08
subject: <b>Thanks for the comments</b>
body:
To LLT,<br /><br />Thanks for your compliments! <br /><br /><br />To smallcatharine,<br /><br /><b> to me this end would seem too much like a cheap Tolkien rip-off, the way Sauron and the Ringwraiths die when Frodo detroys the ring. Though RJ may make jokes about it, like 'mr Underhill', I think he doesn't want to ape Tolkien. </b><br /><br />It&#8217;s different. The Ringwraiths don&#8217;t die immediately when Sauron is destroyed, but fly to Mordor and die there in the fires.<br /><br />Anyway, it&#8217;s clear that the scene between Rand and the DO will be the climax of the whole series.<br />Therefore I think that after Rand defeats the DO, RJ simply needs a quick solution for the reader on the other battlefield (like in the end battle of TGH) and not a still on-going battle.<br /><br />And as said, the Dragon Reborn shall be responsible for defeating the Shadow in Randland. <br /><br /><br />To Maginor,<br /><br /> <b> I think it will be Narishma who defeats SH, at dawn. </b><br /><br />I thins case, I would rather say Logain slays SH considering his glory.<br />The problem is that SH will probably be immune against the OP.<br /><br /><br />To kcf,<br /><br /><b> The problem as I see it is that the situations we've seen SH in don't match up with him being some super-shadowspawn general (not that we've really seen anything regarding leadership of the shadowspawn army). Frankly, I see this job falling to Demandred. It seems to me that SH's main purpose is to bring together the shadow's leadership. Something akin to a CEO or Chairmain of the Board with a security thrown in. </b><br /><br />I think the fact that SH now wears an armor, while before a garb, is quite indicative.<br /><br />I also don&#8217;t think that SH is the designing general in the background, but as pointed out, the leader of the army in the concrete battle. <br /><br />The general is likely Demandred, who even  thinks in WH, ch.35:<br />&#8221;He was a general, a great general, but generals did not have to fight alongside the men they commanded!&#8221;<br /><br />Of course another question is, if Demandred will really live till TG, considering his plan at the Forsaken Tea Party to kill Moridin&#8230;<br /><br /><b> Another point - in the prophesies somewhere there is a statement regarding TG being over, but 'world not finished with battle'. This is often thought to refer to the ongoing fight to destroy the remaining shadowspawn and DF's. </b><br /><br />Well, if you hint at Nicola&#8217;s foretelling, I firmly believe that she means a battle before TG.<br /><br />Besides, I just think that the main part of the Shadow&#8217;s army (Myrddraal and Trollocs) will be mainly destroyed when the DO is defeated.<br /><br />That doesn&#8217;t mean that not other Shadowspawn or DF will still try to make some turmoil.<br />


created: 2005-01-06 11:18:49
subject: <b>And to a dragonburned fool</b>
body:
<b> Nobody else will be so good in the role of the bearer of the Big Black Banner as Shaidar Haran, that's true. But there is too much in Shaidar Haran about the degree of presence of DO in the world, for Shaidar Haran to be unrelated to the main purpose of DO in Shayol Ghul during the Last Battle. SH is too much related to DO's process to treat in the world, he is somehow metaphysically part of this process. SH being super-general outside Shayol Ghul would be beneath SH's potential IMO. </b><br /><br />I wouldn't say &quot;just&quot; a super-general.<br /><br />Through SH (who is after all a Myrddraal, even if he is a special one, as his PoV shows), the DO can kind of participate in the military part of the Last Battle.<br /><br />I think that SH, the DO's Avatar and Hand, will lead the Shadow army and fight the Light forces makes perfect sense.<br />Considering his abilities he is the best for this very important deed.<br /><br />Frankly, I don't see what SH shall do at SG during the Last Battle.<br />As said, I rather expect Moridin there besides the DO, as Rand's nemesis.<br /><br /><b> And SH mentioning his unability of moving away from Shayol Ghul still can be rather another indication of SH's role in enlarging the degree of DO's presense in the world. </b><br /><br />It's a rather concrete thought in my view. <br />I believe SH thinks that this tie has to be severed because soon he has to fight outside SG. <br />


created: 2005-01-06 13:57:41
subject: <b>Excellent theory</b>
body:
I especially like the tie-in with the banner.  Stuff from the first couple of books that has been dropped has always bugged me.  Hopefully RJ will tie in more stuff from the early books once again.  BTW, we also see that banner in Moiraine's story of Manetheren, at the beginning of TEOTW, where she describes it as having a &quot;nameless evil&quot; that made men sorely afraid.  It was described as Ba'alzamon's banner, but since SH can use the TP as well, sure, why not?<br /><br />I'll have to go back and read the LOC Prologue again, but I thought that SH was always in armor?  All Myrdraal are described as clad in armor, except when SH gets ready to have his fun with Mesaana, but I could be mistaken.<br /><br />I like the idea of SH as a general.  I think that despite his delusions of grandeur, Demandred is too valuable an asset for the DO/Moridin to throw away just because he's a touch rebellious.  Once Demandred's master-general-plan is set in motion, the DO will have him do something else.  Excellent work, as always, Etzel!


created: 2005-01-07 05:37:16
subject: <b>No matter what now comes I still think it was a good theory</b>
body:
I find your theory in most parts conclusive however I think there are several misconceptions, atleast they are in my point of view. <br /><br /><b>&quot;It seems Shaidar Haran can also create a kind of dead area around him where channelers are blocked from the True Source, therefore he is protected against the One Power.&quot;</b> <br /><br />First thing we don't know if SH is invulnerable to the OP, untill now he only confronted the Forsaken and since they are linked to the DO it is obvious to assume that SH can exert some kind of direct control over them via this exact link, but we have no evidence what so ever how this would work against the other channelers.<br /><br /><b>&quot;In my view Shaidar Haran will be able to link with the other Myrddraal, his &quot;brothers&quot;, as he calls them in LoC, prologue, who will be themselves linked with Trollocs. That way the attacks of the army can be even more coordinated.&quot;</b><br /><br />I think this kind of link would be the worst kind of stupidity, why would the DO do that? It is absolutely unnecessary, he would gain what? Nothing - not quite nothing - he would gain a whole new weakness which could endanger all of his armies. The Myrdraal are linked with the Trollocs to control their bestial natures which would let them run amok otherwise. The Myrdraal themselves don't need such a form of control. They are already on equal footing with a human army, they don't need to be superior. And I also don't think this kind of link will allow the whole army to act as one body. The Shadowspawn will undoubtedly have an enormous advantage in numbers atleast ten to one, after all that appears to be some kind of requirement for epic fantasy and science fiction (LOTR, Star Wars, Shannara, Sword of Truth etc.), therefore the forces of the Light will be on the verge of defeat, without any kind of direct link among the Shadowspawn.<br /><br /><b>'world not finished with battle'.</b><br /><br />Also I don't think this quote hints to further battles against Shadowspawn, in my opinion it concerns the major clean up in the world. After all what we have there is a quite volatile situation, Aes Sedai vs. Asha'aman, probable rebellions in Rand's territories, the Seanchan vs. everyone and somewhere in between Mat with his gunpowder. The perfect mix for total destruction and since RJ doesn't want that to happen after all he spend 13 books trying to save this world at the possible rist of overexstending the readers patience, some new kind of order has to take control.<br /><br />


created: 2005-01-07 07:03:20
subject: <b>Two replies</b>
body:
To AgingComputer,<br /><br /><b> I especially like the tie-in with the banner. Stuff from the first couple of books that has been dropped has always bugged me. Hopefully RJ will tie in more stuff from the early books once again. BTW, we also see that banner in Moiraine's story of Manetheren, at the beginning of TEOTW, where she describes it as having a &quot;nameless evil&quot; that made men sorely afraid. It was described as Ba'alzamon's banner, but since SH can use the TP as well, sure, why not? </b><br /><br />Good point about the banner in the Trolloc Wars.<br /><br /><b> I'll have to go back and read the LOC Prologue again, but I thought that SH was always in armor? All Myrdraal are described as clad in armor, except when SH gets ready to have his fun with Mesaana, but I could be mistaken. </b><br /><br />As far as I know, Myrddraal in the series normally just wear a black cloak or a black garb.<br />For example Moghedien notes in ACoS, ch.25, when she sees SH: &quot;A Myrddraal came to her in its dead black garb&quot;. <br /><br />At least SH was never seen in this plate armor; it's new. <br /><br /><b> I like the idea of SH as a general. I think that despite his delusions of grandeur, Demandred is too valuable an asset for the DO/Moridin to throw away just because he's a touch rebellious. Once Demandred's master-general-plan is set in motion, the DO will have him do something else. Excellent work, as always, Etzel! </b><br /><br />Thanks, AgingComputer!<br /><br /><br />To Berzerk,<br /><br /><b> First thing we don't know if SH is invulnerable to the OP, untill now he only confronted the Forsaken and since they are linked to the DO it is obvious to assume that SH can exert some kind of direct control over them via this exact link, but we have no evidence what so ever how this would work against the other channelers. </b><br /><br />Actually I see no reason why SH couldn't block other channelers around him as well from the True Source.<br /><br />We even see in CoT, ch.21, that also Alviarin can't channel in SH's non-OP area. <br />She is a DF, ok, but she has certainly no link to the DO like the Forsaken.<br /><br /><b> I think this kind of link would be the worst kind of stupidity, why would the DO do that? It is absolutely unnecessary, he would gain what? Nothing - not quite nothing - he would gain a whole new weakness which could endanger all of his armies. The Myrdraal are linked with the Trollocs to control their bestial natures which would let them run amok otherwise. The Myrdraal themselves don't need such a form of control. They are already on equal footing with a human army, they don't need to be superior. And I also don't think this kind of link will allow the whole army to act as one body. The Shadowspawn will undoubtedly have an enormous advantage in numbers atleast ten to one, after all that appears to be some kind of requirement for epic fantasy and science fiction (LOTR, Star Wars, Shannara, Sword of Truth etc.), therefore the forces of the Light will be on the verge of defeat, without any kind of direct link among the Shadowspawn. </b><br /><br />As I said, in truth I believe they will link, simply because RJ needs a plot device to allow that the Shadowspawn hordes are quickly defeated, after Rand defeats the DO, and thus explain why Rand is also responsible for that success.<br /><br />But besides that, maybe it might also provide the Myrddraal linked to SH (and thus the DO) another advantage. <br />We will see. ..<br />


created: 2005-01-07 12:34:29
subject: <b>I like most of your Theory.</b>
body:
It presents a means for Shaidar Haran`s defeat. And yes, he is the first to wear armor.<br /><br />Also, he could well lead a very large force of Shadowspawn, but not all. There will be those battling in the rest of the world-Caemlyn, Tar Valon, etc. Maybe his force would be those who defeat the Borderlands, and move southward.<br /><br />Also, there will be those fighting in Seanchan, the Aiel Waste and Shara. While we won`t likely see any of this, nevertheless it will be happening.<br /><br />Demandred has the role of organizing and leading the overall battle.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2005-01-07 21:21:29
subject: <b>A note on the armor</b>
body:
<font size="-1"><b>As far as I know, Myrddraal in the series normally just wear a black cloak or a black garb. For example Moghedien notes in ACoS, ch.25, when she sees SH: &quot;A Myrddraal came to her in its dead black garb&quot;. At least SH was never seen in this plate armor; it's new.</b></font><br /><br />OK, I went back over the books and it seems that all Myrddraal are equipped with a set of overlapping plate mail, ideally adapted to their blademaster-equivalent moves.  This is how Myrddraal are described in the Guide.  Rand's first up-close-and-personal encounter with a Myrddraal, in the Stag and Lion, the Myrddraal is again described as having this overlapping sinuous plate armor.<br /><br />So I think that Shaidar Haran's armor is the Myrddraal norm.  However, Shaidar Haran is the first Fade we see WITHOUT the armor (when he sheds it to have fun with Mesaana, and perhaps also in LOC prologue, depending on your definition of &quot;garb&quot; ).


created: 2005-01-10 08:54:38
subject: <b>Re:</b>
body:
To jofraz,<br /><br /><b> Also, he could well lead a very large force of Shadowspawn, but not all. There will be those battling in the rest of the world-Caemlyn, Tar Valon, etc. Maybe his force would be those who defeat the Borderlands, and move southward. <br /><br />Also, there will be those fighting in Seanchan, the Aiel Waste and Shara. While we won`t likely see any of this, nevertheless it will be happening. </b><br /><br />Certainly, there will be great battles everywhere.<br /><br />But in my view there will be one last, all-dominant battle somewhere in the Blight, like the prophecy of the Horn of Valere announces.<br />I believe at least in this main battle, SH will lead the Shadowspawn.<br /><br /><br />To AgingComputer,<br /><br /><b> So I think that Shaidar Haran's armor is the Myrddraal norm. However, Shaidar Haran is the first Fade we see WITHOUT the armor (when he sheds it to have fun with Mesaana, and perhaps also in LOC prologue, depending on your definition of &quot;garb&quot; ). </b><br /><br />It's the first time we see SH in armor in CoT, while before I would say &quot;garb&quot; means he wore a kind of robe.<br /><br />In any case, the armor implies that he will fight besides his brothers in battles.<br /><br />And as said, I don't see why he would be needed for the DO's return at SG.<br /><br />After all, evidently the DO had no need for a Super-Myrddraal to break free in the AoL, otherwise the Forsaken wouldn't be surprised.<br />SH is something new; in my view a tool for the military Last Battle.<br />


created: 2005-01-10 16:48:27
subject: <b>garb... a noun</b>
body:
Main Entry: 1garb <br />Pronunciation: 'g&#228;rb<br />Function: noun<br />Etymology: Middle French or Old Italian; Middle French garbe graceful contour, grace, from Old Italian garbo grace<br />1 obsolete : FASHION, MANNER<br />2 a : a style of apparel b : outward form : APPEARANCE <br /><br /><br />Not to rag on anyone, but a garb simply means a style of dress. A &quot;garb&quot; does not mean a robe, it does not mean any particular style of anything. Whatever you are wearing now is your garb. Myrddraal wear dead black garb. That just means whatever the heck they are wearing, it's dead black. It could be a spandex jumpsuit, but it'd still be garb.<br /><br />Armor could be garb. It's an old fashioned word that allows RJ to come across as sounding verbose... kind of like that word.<br /><br /><br />Other than that one point, I enjoyed the theory. I even voted for it. The editor in me started frothing about the garb thing. Sorry... I'll try to keep him in check further on.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Warder to Be'lal's Girl<br />Wotmania Lottery<br /><br /><br /><br />&quot;Meh. A good relationship is like fireworks: loud, explosive, and liable to maim you if you hold on too long.&quot; ~ Sven, Questionable Content<br /><br />Bonded by Sidious. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-01-10 17:01:18
subject: <b>sorry...</b>
body:
I forgot to cite that source... Merriam Webster's Online Dictionary.<br /><br />type in garb, and it brings it right up.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Warder to Be'lal's Girl<br />Wotmania Lottery<br /><br /><br /><br />&quot;Meh. A good relationship is like fireworks: loud, explosive, and liable to maim you if you hold on too long.&quot; ~ Sven, Questionable Content<br /><br />Bonded by Sidious. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-01-11 00:40:10
subject: <b>One reservation</b>
body:
My only quibble with this theory (and it's a minor one) is the passage about the weakness from being away from Shayol Ghul.  Reading that passage, it strikes me more as the thought of a willful adolescent angry at being called home, not the anticipation of leading shadowspawn into battle.  I interpret it as an incredibly powerful being resenting any impingement on its power, even in service of the Great Lord--er, Dark One.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Otherwise, interesting thoughts.  I admit I am puzzled by the plot necessity of a SuperFade, esp. with so many Forsaken puttering about.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Luck is a horse to ride like any other<br /><br />StaffWielder@wotmania.com</font><p></p>


created: 2005-01-11 03:45:01
subject: <b>SH's outfit</b>
body:
To Phelix,<br /><br />Ah, ok, in my German-English dictionary &quot;garb&quot; is translated with &quot;Gewand&quot; which normally means a robe/cloak.<br /><br />Anyway, a few concrete quotes: <br /><br />In Demandred's PoV in LoC, prologue, SH is &quot;black-clad&quot; in an &quot;inky cloak&quot;. <br /><br />In LoC, ch.6, Semirhage describes SH as &quot;black-clad&quot; in an &quot;ebon cloak&quot;.<br /><br />In ACoS, ch.25, Moghedien notes &quot;dead black garb&quot;. <br />Since it was never mentioned that SH wears anything else than a black cloak before, I believe he also wears one in this scene, otherwise RJ had told it.<br /><br />In PoD, ch.12, Graendal says SH is &quot;clothed in black&quot;, in a &quot;long black cloak&quot;.<br /><br />Then in CoT, ch.21, SH wears the first time we know of a &quot;sinuous black armor, all overlapping plates like the scales of a snake&quot;.<br /><br />This shows clearly a change in his outfit, and the reason is that SH will fight in my view.


created: 2005-01-11 11:25:47
subject: <b>Great Battle in the Blight</b>
body:
Etzel, in one of your entries, you said this:<br /><br />&quot;But in my view there will be one last, all-dominant battle somewhere in the Blight, like the prophecy of the Horn of Valere announces.<br />I believe at least in this main battle, SH will lead the Shadowspawn.&quot;<br /><br />Just a small sidenote - is Shayol Ghul not in the Blight? I think the Prophecy of the Horn refers to the imminent attack on Shayol Ghul. <br /><br />I liked this Theory, as it was quite well researched. I hope the Banner thing happens, because that sounds really cool.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lan.gif" border="0" /> Warder to Whoever Will Have Me <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />More Than Twice as Cool As: <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> Hotter Than the Sun <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /> Entirely In Love With Myself <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-01-11 12:43:26
subject:
<b>OK... didn't know English wasn't the first language... <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /></b>

body:
I always took those quotes to denote the feel of the scene. In previous scenes, the myrddraal are coming or going, outside, on the attack, doing things where they might soon need to flee. When SH arrives to reign in the forsaken, he's coming in as a dominant figure.<br /><br />By arriving without the cloak, he's showing that he has as much right to be there as they do, and that he's not fleeing. The cloak is how myrddraal hide what they are in public, so without it SH must either stay where he is, or he doesn't feel the need to hide.<br /><br />That's just my spin on it. I did vote yes, just because you hit how I was feeling about SH right on the head. It was a good theory, and the only thing that bothered me was the &quot;a garb.&quot; But that was explained away.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Warder to Be'lal's Girl<br />Wotmania Lottery<br /><br /><br /><br />&quot;Meh. A good relationship is like fireworks: loud, explosive, and liable to maim you if you hold on too long.&quot; ~ Sven, Questionable Content<br /><br />Bonded by Sidious. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-01-13 11:21:57
subject: <b>Reply</b>
body:
To &#188;StaffWielder,<br /><br /><b> My only quibble with this theory (and it's a minor one) is the passage about the weakness from being away from Shayol Ghul. Reading that passage, it strikes me more as the thought of a willful adolescent angry at being called home, not the anticipation of leading shadowspawn into battle. I interpret it as an incredibly powerful being resenting any impingement on its power, even in service of the Great Lord--er, Dark One. </b><br /><br />I think if SH's main task during TG were to stay at SG, he wouldn't bother if he becomes weak after some time away from there.<br /><br />But that SH even thinks that this tie has to be severed and that the day would come soon, means to me, that he believes he will have to do things not at SG where this weakness would harm him. <br /><br />I also don't buy that SH wants to become independent from the DO.<br />SH is the DO's creature, the DO placed him above almost all Chosen, he seems familiar with the DO's plan and besides Moridin SH seems to be the only being the DO really trust.<br /><br />I can't believe that SH would betray the DO, especially since he is obviously depending on the DO's power, namely the TP which the DO could simply take away.<br />Or that the DO would be so dumb to trust SH this way, if he is actually an untrustworthy being.  <br /><br /><br />To BlademasterX,<br /><br /><b> Just a small sidenote - is Shayol Ghul not in the Blight? I think the Prophecy of the Horn refers to the imminent attack on Shayol Ghul. </b><br /><br />I think that Rand alone will fight the DO (and Moridin) at SG as the Prophecies state. <br /><br />However, I believe at the same time the Light and the Shadow army will clash because the Prophecy of the Horn states:<br />&quot;In the last, lorn fight <br />'gainst the fall of long night,<br />the mountains stand guard, <br />and the dead shall be ward, <br />for the grave is no bar to my call.&quot;<br /><br />The mountains which stand guard must be the Mountains of Dhoom IMO. <br />They guard SG against the Light army, so to speak.<br /><br />Therefore this Last Battle will happen somewhere south and in the sight of the Mountains of Dhoom.<br /><br />Besides, as we see in EotW, ch.9, where Rand dreams of Thakan'dar, this area is too inaccessible for such a big battle.  <br /><br /><br />To Phelix,<br /><br />Yub, I'm German, therefore I make silly mistakes sometimes... <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />


created: 2005-01-13 17:17:19
subject: <b>Hey... Silly mistakes are great...</b>
body:
I get laughed at for my silly mistakes in Mexican. (Yes, I speak Mexican and am proud of it! I also speak Spanish, but with less fluency...)<br /><br /><br />About the line <br /><br />{qoute}&quot;In the last, lorn fight <br />'gainst the fall of long night,<br />the mountains stand guard, <br />and the dead shall be ward, <br />for the grave is no bar to my call.&quot;{/quote}<br /><br />This is a prophecy of the Light, yes? So it seems contradictory that the Light prophecy would had mountains guarding the enemy.<br /><br />So what I was thinking goes as follows...<br /><br />The battle is going baddly for the Light forces, they're being beaten soundly by the shadowspawn, Mat's got the horn, but won't use it because the plan says to wait until he's at Shayol Ghul. So, they retreat until they come to teh back side of the Mountains of Dhoom. Their back and flanks are guarded by the mountains in that situation, then Mat, realizing he's trapped, blows the horn, thinking of salvation.<br /><br />The Dead Heroes come back, and ward off the shadow's forces. That get's you mountains guarding and dead warding. Just my idea though...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Warder to Be'lal's Girl<br />Wotmania Lottery<br /><br /><br /><br />&quot;Meh. A good relationship is like fireworks: loud, explosive, and liable to maim you if you hold on too long.&quot; ~ Sven, Questionable Content<br /><br />Bonded by Sidious. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-01-14 23:05:25
subject: <b>Needed to chime in</b>
body:
To Etzel, excellent theory, loved reading it.<br /><br />I also hope the banner thing does happen, it sounded cool then and it does now too.<br /><br /><br />{QUOTE} I also don't buy that SH wants to become independent from the DO.<br />SH is the DO's creature, the DO placed him above almost all Chosen, he seems familiar with the DO's plan and besides Moridin SH seems to be the only being the DO really trust.<br />I can't believe that SH would betray the DO, especially since he is obviously depending on the DO's power, namely the TP which the DO could simply take away.<br />Or that the DO would be so dumb to trust SH this way, if he is actually an untrustworthy being. {QUOTE}<br /><br />I agree with this. I always assumed that the DO had SH created is because the DO needs a being that he can trust, and is strong enough to pull on the reins of his other minions, forsaken and shadowspawn alike.<br /><br />I also agree that Demandred will be more involved int eh planing of the last battle, not so much the actual fighting though.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Shalashaska</font><p></p>


created: 2005-01-18 08:04:07
subject: <b>Not much to add....</b>
body:
Just thought I'd drop in and say I like the idea. It really would be a good twist to see Shaidar Haran linked to all the Shadowspawn flowing from the Blight, especially since we learned about that Myrddraal ability way back in tEotW. <br /><br />Seeing him with the Dead-Black Banner would be a fear-inspiring sight, and killing him a tough task to-boot. I'm actually looking forward to see both happen, as well as the Trollocs and lesser Fades writhing when he does die!<br /><br />Nice, original theory, Etzel. Thumbs up from me!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2005-01-19 03:34:07
subject: <b>I always thought its obvious...</b>
body:
That Shaidar Haran will be killed by Galad, who, at least once will do what is &quot;right&quot; AND what is needed. Dying and as he and Rand are brothers, another prophecy will be fulfilled <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />


created: 2006-03-01 02:35:00
subject: <b>stupid question</b>
body:
can someone please explain to me rands family tree in detail i just read galad was rands brother and i didnt no that lol &gt;_&lt;


created: 2006-09-08 17:56:49
subject: <b>Hmmm I sorta think...</b>
body:
I actually think that his purpose is to kill Moridin and the other Forsaken so that the Dark One can remake the world and the Pattern into his own image.<br /><br />I personally think the Dark One will dispose of all Forsaken and all human beings if he wins, which is why Shaidar Haran acts the way he does.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;The fact is, that to do anything in the world worth doing, we must not stand back shivering and thinking of the cold and danger, but jump in and scramble through as well as we can.&quot; -Robert Cushing<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/egwene.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2007-04-03 22:40:26
subject: <b>I just LOVE parallelisms</b>
body:
This whole story of SH reminds me of Tolkien when he describes the Mouth of Sauron (it apperas in the axtended edition of LOTR's 3rd movie, though in reality he isn't killed), Sauron's voice such as SH is the DO's hand. Another similarity between them is that SH is not a forsaken (obious, I know) beeing the Forsaken the nearest darkfriends to the DO because the DO can't trust them 100% while the Mouth of Sauron is not a Nazg&#251;l and therefore has a mind of his own against the Nazg&#251;l that are blindly loyal to Sauron.<br /><br />The idea of the link seems good to me because maybe if a lesser Myrdraal is killed, non of the Trollocs will die and maybe if SH dies (as he probably will, jeje, TAKE THAT SH!!) that might not necesarily mean the death of the trollocs at his command because of the other myrdraal still alive. <br /><br />SH's death will lower greatly the moral of the Shadowspawn making them easyer to kill as with the destruction of Sauron the Orcs and other foul creatures lose their will to fight.<br /><br />Who will kill SH? I'll make a wild bet to say Perrin, but I don't know...<br /><br />Nice theory, by the way... I like it <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Death rides in my shoulders. Death follows my footsteps. I am death&quot;  -Lews Therin-</font><p></p>


created: 2007-05-24 00:27:40
subject: <b>I agree with most of your assertions..........</b>
body:
I think that Shaidar Haran will lead the shadow's forces in the field, but I disagree as to the nature of his bond to Shayol Ghul. This is a theory I tried to get posted on here but apparently it wasn't compelling enough, I really think that Shaidar Haran is Asmodean re-incarnated. That sudden ache in the back of his neck and the subsequent waves of weakness likely escalate in severity untill it eventually results in death. Lets call it the Dark One's assurance of Asmodean's future loyalty.


created: 2007-06-25 04:59:50
subject: <b>Mat..</b>
body:
I rather agree with this theory. And I think it will be Mat who will meet him head-on and hopefully defeat him. After all, it's quite obvious that Mat will be the one to lead the army, him being an uber-general and having the Horn and all that. He also has that ter'angreal, which is very similar to Shaidar's Power absorbing ability.


created: 2007-10-30 12:52:48
subject: <b>My thoughts</b>
body:
In Winter's Heart there was a prophecy that says something about the seals breaking and that the DO will be free. This prophecy doesn't say the DO will take the body so SH it says Death, yes death with the Capital D meaning that at sometime before the TG Shaidar Haran will die and the DO will take Moridin's body for his control. Just my thoughts though but do try to read the prophecy I'm talking about.


created: 2009-08-10 19:54:09
subject: <b>I think most people accept this but...</b>
body:
I believe that Shaidar Haran is almost literally the &quot;Dark One clothed in Myrddraal's flesh&quot;.  He is the Dark One's Avatar, not incarnate as a man, but as a man warped into the Dark One's image (a myrrdraal).  I think that, rather than be some super-myrddraal, he was in fact given life by a sentient portion of the Dark One's power, the Dark One's very soul, if you will.<br /><br />You could say that he is &quot;of one substance&quot; with the Dark One, and &quot;begotten, not made&quot;.  No blasphemy intended, but I think this idea illustrates their relationship much, much better than that he is an experiment to create a more powerful servant for him to control and act as a watchdog.  He does serve those functions, but I believe that Shaidar Haran is an intergral part of the Dark One himself, manifest in this world.<br /><br />Oh, also, sorry to bust in on this argument of clothing (although considering how much RJ mentioned and dwelled on clothing in this series, I think he'd be amused) though I have no references, my understanding was that he did, in fact, wear armor before, like all Fades did.  I made a special note of the scene when he burst out of the armor and was wearing something close to normal clothes.  I had the idea that the fact that he didn't have to wear armor set him that much higher above the other fades, that he could, in fact, choose NOT to fight.<br /><br />However, this doesn't change my opinion that he will serve as a commander of commanders in the Final Battle.  He will be the crusher of the hopes of the armies of the light, sucking the very will to fight out of them and bolstering the courage and fighting abilities of his allies/servants.<br /><br />I actually think that Shaidar Haran will become even more powerful as the series concludes, becoming a terrible, inexorable beast of an enemy before the end.  That laughing, giant myrddraal spouting black fire and slaying men by the dozens sounds like a fairly viable (and frighteningly effective) future for Shaidar Haran.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Samshaidar Mhael<br />The Leader of the Destroyers of Shadow <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-blue.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-red.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/borg.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-green.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-purple.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />I am immortal, I have inside me blood of kings <br />I have no rival, no man can be my equal<br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-01-15 07:35:39
subject: <b>To Phelix</b>
body:
The above idea has been posted before.<br /><br />Please see &lt;bMyrddraal, Genetics, and The Spark&lt;/b&gt; postd by Kaelin Veldrin on 12/13/2001 2:30:59 PM. You'll find this theory in the <b>Theories for the Academics</b> sub catergory <b>Genetics and Heredity</b><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Founding member of the ASI</b><br /><br /><b>TP ADMIN</b><br /><br /><b>Simon</b><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-01-15 10:40:40
subject: <b>Some disagreements</b>
body:
<b> It has been established that for the DO to reincarnate a soul into a new body, the body must have the *capability* to channel, the strength does not matter, just the ability. </b><br /><br />If you believe that a channeler can only be reincarnated in another channelers' body, I disagree.<br />The ability to channel is connected to the soul, not the body.<br /><br />Otherwise would mean that the former owners of Moridin's and Osan'gar's bodies were male channelers, though it's said they were simply men from the Borderlands. <br />Also Aran'gar (a male channeler in a female body) would be hardly explainable.  <br /><br /><b> 1. All fades can channel the TP, if taught how.<br />2. This is probably how human channelers can be turned to the Shadow using fades.<br />3. Fades could probably force themselves onto human women, and have little half human half fade things&#8230; eeeww. </b> <br /><br />Myrddraal don't channel. <br />They have certain abilities, though, which stem from the DO due to the portion of the TP in their genes (like some other Shadowspawn have), which is much higher than in Trollocs.<br /><br />I believe if a person shall be turned to the Shadow via 13 BA &amp; 13 Fades, the TP portion in the bodies of the Myrddraal mixes with the OP, is channeled into the body of the person, probably creating a link between the person and the DO, thus binding him to the Shadow. <br /><br />In my view the Myrddraal also can't learn to channel the True Power, and no one can simply teach them how to use it, because only the DO can give you access to the TP and the TP is undetectable.<br /><br />SH is the exception. <br />He has indeed access to the TP from the DO and can consciously use it.<br /><br />And to your last point, the Guide says that Myrddraal are &quot;probably sterile due to their hybrid nature&quot;; I think also RJ confirmed that Myrddraal can't have children (though I have to check this).<br />


created: 2005-01-15 12:01:09
subject: <b>nice</b>
body:
great theory, what would happen if the half myrdraal children would have children with human women, and what about the children of the children of the half myrdraal half human. sorry rambling, anyway as I said good job.<br />(: + <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /> = <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/myrddraal.gif" border="0" /> <br />(: + <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/myrddraal.gif" border="0" /> = ??????? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/crazy.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/crazy.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/crazy.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/crazy.gif" border="0" />


created: 2005-01-15 14:29:51
subject: <b>This theory is certainly viable</b>
body:
Just because Myrddraal can't channel, doesn't mean that the channeling gene didn't cause the &quot;throwback.&quot;  In fact, there should be <i>something</i>, however farfetched, that should explain the reason that Myrddraal have their freaky powers.  The fact that channelling is also established to genes, just like the &quot;throwback&quot; that becomes a Myrddraal.<br /><br />Now, I don't profess to be an expert in the area of breeding and the like (Phelix had to explain what a &quot;throwback&quot; is to me), but the one thing that might poke a hole in the video is the animal throwbacks.  If a certain gene triggers the Myrddraal, it should stand to reason that a gene triggers the animal throwback (while is stated in the BWB to rarely survive).<br /><br />Someone in the messageboards of the theory that Simon mentioned speculated that a single recessive channeling gene causes the ability to learn, and a double recessive gene causes the spark.  They speculated that 1 recessive gene caused animal throwback and 2 recessive caused Myrddraal.  Thoughts anyone?


created: 2005-01-15 17:08:35
subject: <b>Responses...</b>
body:
<b> Simon</b><br /><br />You, my friend, have been officially nominated for cannonization. I called the pope myself. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> Thanks for your help, I don't know why I couldn't find that other theory.<br /><br /><b>Etzel</b><br /><br />About the channeling and the bodies. Personally, I think there's a double necessity. The soul needs to be able to channel and there is a gene for it.<br /><br />The FAQ explains this whole shennanigan very well, and for the most part I agree with the FAQ.<br /><br /><i>The resurrected Forsaken can probably be explained in this way. To channel, you need the gene. People who can channel can build a link to the True Source, and channel. If the link is severed, they cannot channel anymore. (Stilling and gentling.) However, if they are moved to a new body, the link between them and the Source is still there. The body may or may not have the channelling gene, and therefore be able to forge a link, but if someone has the gene, and makes the link, it cannot be cut short of stilling. The gene is necessary to have the ability, and make the link, but moving bodies does not alter the ability to channel once the link to the Source is made.<br /><br />~The FAQ on &quot;IS Channeling Genetic</i><br /><br />You say Myrddraal &quot;don't&quot; channel. We don't see them do so, and we see one of the female forsaken think that it is impossible that one is (When SH comes for her), but that fits in with the theme of no one really knowing what they think they know.<br /><br />I said that fades could learn to channel the TP, and I stand by that, but as you said SH is the only one who has permission. If the DO felt it was necessary, I am certain that the fades would begin learning to tap the TP and use it in battle. However, thinking about what the effects of the TP are, I doubt it will ever become &quot;necessary&quot; for the DO to have leagions of TP channeling lurks.<br /><br />Imagine if they became addicted to the TP? They'd become less and less reliable and their hordes of trollocs would be unreliable. Also, if a legion of fades who channel the TP existed, they might seek to overthrow the Chosen, or they might try to destroy humanity. I'm in the camp that the DO needs the dragon or someone to free him, and Fades just can't fill that role.<br /><br /><b>Eesha</b><br /><br />I think that those kids would have serious issues. They'd probably be seriously messed up. Possibly with bestial body parts, half a mind, and some powers of fades, and some from humans... eeeew... then their kids? Good lord... eeeww... imagine if they had throwbacks to trollocs?<br /><br /><b>Agingcomputer</b><br /><br />No one can be an expert in everything, and I hardly count here. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br />Myself, I think that the reason the fades are created by a throwback gene from humans, the animal throwbacks should then be from animal genes trying to take supremacy.<br /><br />Perhaps it's something like the soul of a wolf is born in the womb of a trolloc. That'd be horrible. The wolf's soul fights with the trolloc's body and the TP inherent to the trolloc's nature, and the fight ends with the wolf winning, causing the baby to be born more wolf than trolloc, and to be killed because trollocs hate wolves and wolves hate trollocs... did anyone just hear the Star Trek theme? (Klingons hate Tribbles and tribbles hate klingons?)<br /><br />Thanks ya'll!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Warder to Be'lal's Girl<br />Wotmania Lottery<br /><br /><br /><br />&quot;Meh. A good relationship is like fireworks: loud, explosive, and liable to maim you if you hold on too long.&quot; ~ Sven, Questionable Content<br /><br />Bonded by Sidious. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-01-15 17:59:47
subject: <b>Eesha</b>
body:
I think the formula should go:<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /> + <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /> = :mryddraal: OR <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Then<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/myrddraal.gif" border="0" /> + <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/berelain.gif" border="0" /> (or <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/leia.gif" border="0" /> )= <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/borg.gif" border="0" /> (possibly something else... like <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /> )<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Warder to Be'lal's Girl<br />Wotmania Lottery<br /><br /><br /><br />&quot;Meh. A good relationship is like fireworks: loud, explosive, and liable to maim you if you hold on too long.&quot; ~ Sven, Questionable Content<br /><br />Bonded by Sidious. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-01-15 19:40:52
subject: <b>well</b>
body:
really good theory.  as for shadar whoever.  I dunno if you have to be able to channel to wield the true power.  the dark one can do anything even reincarnate people literally into new bodies.  its a crazy world.  maybe they don't have to have the spark<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smackhead.gif" border="0" /><i><font color="blue">Stealer of Tigrs' Brain</font></i> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smackhead.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tinfoilhat.gif" border="0" /> <font color="red">Aes Sedai to Urza, Tayron, and Jojjo.</font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tinfoilhat.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> <font color="blue">Kuke will call you Prendergast Von Bimmle from now on.</font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" /> <i><font color="red">New mistress to Sheep, Slayer_2, &amp; Delireus!</font></i> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/crazy.gif" border="0" /> <font color="blue">Worshipper of Snoopster!</font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/crazy.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-01-16 07:42:17
subject: <b>Female Fades</b>
body:
If channeling genes are linked to fades being born, couldn't there also be female fades? <br /><br />If not, why not?<br /><br />Does the gene in female trolloc offspring which would create a 'she-fade' somehow produce the animal throwbacks?<br /><br /><br />Anyway, well written theory. I like it.


created: 2005-01-17 06:17:26
subject: <b>You're taking a lot for granted...</b>
body:
You state that crossing streams of balefire made Rand sick, but there is no corroborative evidence of this, either in the books or from RJ himself.  Likewise your statement that channelers are needed to house the resurrected souls of the Forsaken.  There is no evidence of this.  A FAQ is not an absolutely authority, and that FAQ even says &quot;probably.&quot;  I think that it is very possible that Myrdraal might derive their differences from the human channeler gene, but we don't know it works the way you claim, and as a foundation you make assumptions that several concepts are facts, when they are merely unsubstantiated theories.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


created: 2005-01-17 18:44:10
subject: <b>um...yeah...</b>
body:
umm...<br />I can only speak on my own thoughts but i dont find that your theory holds up very well.   The only thing that i can see that would make sense would be that the channeling gene causes the throwback myrdraal.   Shadar Haran is the dark one (I thought this was obvious to everyone, is it not???) that would explain why he can use the true power.   The problem with mixing the one power and true power is questionable as of yet, (Rand is having dizzy spells because of the different evils in his wounds, they are fighting each other and rand is the battle field.    Or is this not obvious to everyone either?) as we have seen no real mention of it.   The bodies of our new forsaken, probably couldnt channel as stated by someone prior to me, as channeling is evidently linked to the soul and not the body of the channeler, (which is kind of weird when you think about it seeing that there is a gene to cause channeling...) anyhow, your assuming to much based on to little information.   I like the idea and it was, for the most part, a well thought out theory on your side, just lacking some crucial points here and there (as well as some decent evidence of what your suggesting).


created: 2005-01-17 22:31:20
subject: <b>To matrim_son_of_battles</b>
body:
Not only was it not obvious that Shaidar Haran (check the spelling of his name, by the way...) is the Dark One, but in fact it was fairly clear to me that he is <i>not</i> the Dark One.  There is a scene with one of the Forsaken (I believe it was Moghedien, but it could have been Demandred or someone else, too) where they observe that the ceiling of the entrance to the Pit of Doom (where the Dark One speaks to the Forsaken) doesn't brush Shaidar Haran's head as it does their own.  In addition, the Dark One speaks in a different voice to this Forsaken, despite the fact that Shaidar Haran is standing right there.  If Shaidar Haran were the Dark One, <i>he</i> would be the one speaking.<br /><br />No, Shaidar Haran is exactly what his name translates to:  the Hand of the Dark, the Dark One's way of more directly influencing the world.<br /><br />As for Rand's dizzy spells, there is no certain cause of them.  It is likely the wound in his side is making them worse, but since he had the wounds for some time before the dizziness started it is difficult to blame the wound for the dizzy spells.  They could also have been caused by the mixed balefires in Shadar Logoth with the mystery man (the wanderer); many like this hypothesis because it is extremely unlikely that we would witness the scene with the crossed balefires and Rand's subsequent dizziness if it were <i>not</i> the cause of his trouble channeling.<br /><br />So no, that's not obvious either, and I personally don't think the sole cause of Rand's dizzy spells is the wound in his side.  There are lots and lots of things that could have caused or contributed to his problems channelling, not the least of which has already been discussed above.<br /><br />P.S.  The sentence fragment, &quot;anyhow, your assuming to much based on to little information. I like the idea and it was, for the most part, a well thought out theory on your side, just lacking some crucial points here and there (as well as some decent evidence of what your suggesting)&quot; is barely readable...try &quot;you're&quot; and &quot;too&quot; for starters.  And assuming a lot based on very little information is the purpose of this theory post....<br /><br />As for the original premise--I guess I thought that was the central tenet of this theory:  Myrddraal are Trollocs that also inherited the channelling gene.  Even if it's been said before, I have to admit that's a strong possibility (and a question I think we're unlikely to get an answer to).  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Who we were is lost to all men, and life is bitter.&quot;<br />&quot;Expect nothing, and you will not be surprised.&quot;  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-01-18 04:53:10
subject: <b>After some thought, I have to disagree....</b>
body:
When I first read this theory, I thought you might be right, that Myrddraal could have the inherent ability to channel. RJ has been a little ambivalent about the subject, leaving us guessing for the most part. From &quot;Thus Spake the Creator&quot;, we have someone ask about the subject:<br />Q~&quot;Is channeling ability strictly, or partly geneticaly based?&quot; <br />A~&quot;Partially. Worked it a bit with some friends but just left it mostly hanging.&quot; <br /><br />Sheriam mentions that she thinks the ability is being culled out of society by gentling all the male channelers found, and they usually die shortly after this is done to them. We are also led to believe that the ability may be entirely genetic with the finding of so many channelers in an isolated place like the Two Rivers.<br /><br />Then along comes Aran'gar, A.K.A. Balthamel/Halima. A male soul placed in a female body that channels saidin. You can see the connection is now made to the soul for channeling capabilities, so the ability is not entirely genetics.<br /><br />What does this have to do with your theory specifically? Much, I think. In TDR, &quot;Daughter of the Night&quot;, Lanfear says this:<br />&quot;I have served the Lord of Twilight long. Long did I lie imprisoned for my service, in an endless, dreamless sleep. Only Gray Men and Myrddraal are denied dreams. Even Trollocs can dream...&quot;<br /><br />We know that Gray Men were Darkfriends that have had their souls removed, and this would be the reason they can't dream. It appears this would be the best reason that Myrddraal can't dream either; they have no soul. If that's the case, then no, Fades are not inherently capable of channeling. <br /><br />BTW, I'm surprised someone else hasn't pointed this out already, because this is the reason some believe that Shaidar Haran contains the soul of either Be'lal or Asmo. I didn't vote no, because I still like the theory and thought is was rather good and enjoyed reading it. Good work!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2005-01-18 08:59:57
subject: <b>Re: Rand's dizzy spells</b>
body:
To matrim_whatever, I believe your statement about Rand's dizzy spells coming from the wounds in his side is true, and I posted a theory expounding on the supporting arguments at length ( 'at length' is not an empty phrase from me).  <br />To Kaiser Karl, you state that Rand had the wounds for a while before he got the symptoms, but in fact, he received the second wound, was unconscious, fought Sammael the day he woke up(AFTER the Bowl of the Winds incident and the Seanchan invasion of Ebou Dar), and THE VERY NEXT TIME we see him he is experiencing the dizziness and nausea, which have gotten worse since then, suggesting that it merely had not progressed to the point of discomfort when he first woke up.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


created: 2005-01-18 10:09:01
subject: <b>Channeling? or innate abilities?</b>
body:
I doubt that it would be accurate to say that all Myrdraal have the ability to learn to channel the TP, as some would ultimately learn on their own if that was the case.<br /><br />I do remember reading somewhere, though, that they are all *conceived* with the ability to channel the OP, and that the TP and the OP battle for control of the infant, with the OP eventually being suppressed (if the infant is to survive).  But while the OP is suppressed, the TP does not come away unscathed.  It still holds sway over the Myrdraal child, but not in its original form.  Instead, it shows itself in the form of the Myrdraal's innate abilities (sight without eyes, shadow-walking, etc.).<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">The past is buried.  Let it rest in peace.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-01-18 10:52:00
subject: <b>An improper assumption</b>
body:
You quote the FAQ to prove your point that &quot;to channel the TP one must first be able to channel the OP.&quot;<br /><br />However, the passage you cite does not support your conclusion.  You quote &quot;The True Power is similar to the One Power, but is reserved for Shadowsouled channelers. It can be equally drawn by male and female channelers, which is one of a few elements that distinguish it from the One Power.&quot;<br /><br />This does not conclusively demonstrate that only OP channelers have the potential to access the TP.  Being reserved only for &quot;Shadowsouled channelers&quot; does not mean that only they could use it, if granted the access.  I believe RJ said (in reference to black cords) that using the TP is a matter of you wanting it and the DO granting it.  So technically, at least, a non-channeler could be granted access to the TP.  And why not?  It's the DO's &quot;gift&quot; to give.<br /><br />Sure, it's highly unlikely that the DO would grant access to a non-channeler.  First, I doubt that any non-channeler darkfriend would rise high enough (or live long enough) to merit such a privilege.  Second, there seem to be some similarities between weaving with the OP and the TP -- this would give OP channelers a leg-up in using the TP.<br /><br />I post this not because I think we're likely to see a bunch of TP-sporting Darkfriend Muggles (convenient term) running around Randland anytime soon, but because your theory places a lot of weight on this assumed fact.<br /><br /><br />TFK


created: 2005-01-19 18:16:20
subject: <b>Just a small question.</b>
body:
I understand your point with this theory, but do you not think it is possible that we read way to much into what Jordan's books say? In all probability we will never know half of the stuff we desire to learn about Randland and its inhabitants seeing as how the series is almost complete. Perhaps RJ is planning to tie up all the loose ends with the remaining two prequels. Anyways, back to the point. RJ is a great writer. He makes things turn up where you least expect them and things that are barely mentioned seven books earlier become important. This is of course a great characteristic of his books. You never know when something you have read will come back into play. On the down side, we begin to look to deeply into the books and words themselves. It reminds me of the curse on Shadar Logoth. We're suspicious about small meaningless words, trying to make them more than they are. I'm glad this is on the blackboard seeing as how since it is like the sixteenth reply no one will probably read it. But for those who do, I expect this probably will get a few bad thoughts. Anyways. Untill we meet again.


created: 2005-05-02 21:20:56
subject: <b>i agree</b>
body:
if you're saying that myrddraal are trollocs that have the OP gene and are as such warped, then, yes i agree.<br /><br />i think it coincides nicely with their abilities<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">idealism not pragmatism</font><p></p>


created: 2006-06-03 17:47:20
subject: <b>Just saying</b>
body:
I said I agreed not so much because I believe it to be true as  because I would love it if it were. It would just be awesome.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Soy un fauno.</font><p></p>


created: 2008-07-11 20:42:52
subject: <b>Good theory</b>
body:
It actually does make a lot of sense. It would explain why Fades can sense the One Power being used and why one would be born instead of a Trolloc. Basically, a Halfman being born would be like a human with the spark being born. Enough of the humanity is gone that the Fades can't actually channel the One Power or the True Power, it seems, but the latter would be an inherent part of the Fade's nature since the True Power was used to originally create Shadowspawn in the first place. It really does make a lot of sense. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Kids in the front seat cause accidents. <br />Accidents in the back seat cause kids.</font><p></p>


created: 2009-01-29 20:25:18
subject: <b>makes sense</b>
body:
IT makes sense. Or it maybe that the probabilities are simply roughly the same for one being born with the spark and a fade being born. <br />The fades do have some interesting abilities that can only be explained thru the Power(or even not). Notable is the one about not being affected by wind. Even Aginor, the Forsaken expert on biology and genetic engineering doesn't know what to make of that, and they were his creations to begin with. They can also act as conduits for the one power in such a way that  a channeler be turned to evil with the appropriate assistance.  And there's the bond with trollocs. A very peculiar trait almost akin to the warder bond.<br />And yes we do know fades can take their pleasures from human women. Shaidar Haran certainly enjoyed punishing Moggy and Messy. Dunno about female fades but I suspect they do exist, RJ simply didn't think it relevant to expound on the gender of any myrddraal our heroes come across. They just get killed anyway.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Is this in the Old Tongue?<br />&quot;Bah weep graaagnah wheep ni ni bong!&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2005-01-16 04:43:13
subject: <b>A few points.</b>
body:
One, the Red sister you compare to Berelain, isn't she the same young Red sister that our friend Rahvin had twisted around his lil finger? She was so warped with compulsion that she wasn't herself anymore, and probably fled Rand based on orders from Rahvin. At that point the Chosen were to &quot;let the Lord of Chaos rule,&quot; yes?<br /><br />Two, Rand does not explicitly deal with the First, but he does hear about her, mostly off camera. The Tairen High Lords talk to him about trade, both with Mayene and with Illian, and Rand forces them to continue trade, and not only continue it, but to husband it. From all sources, Rand hears that the first manipulates all those around her for the betterment of her country. He reads that she's marching to his side with an army, and comes to a logical conclusion: put her in power in Cairhien when he leaves.<br /><br />You say that that's an illogical decision, but it's not. She's a skilled ruler, by all accounts, so she'd do well ruling the city and nation. In her situation, she plays Daes Dae Mar to survive, not just to live well. She's like a college Cross Country Runner in Mayene, coming to lead the High School team. Also, as a foreigner, she can't expect to retain her authority for any length of time. She will leave soon, and the nobles of the country know that.<br /><br />As a foreigner, she can administer true justice, and can be free of ties to most of the houses in Cairhien. Mayene doesn't trade directly with Cairhien, IIRC.<br /><br />She's really perfect for the job until Rand gets Dobraine set.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Warder to Be'lal's Girl<br />Wotmania Lottery<br /><br /><br /><br />&quot;Meh. A good relationship is like fireworks: loud, explosive, and liable to maim you if you hold on too long.&quot; ~ Sven, Questionable Content<br /><br />Bonded by Sidious. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-01-16 07:00:47
subject: <b>I agree with Phelix...</b>
body:
She is the ruler of a small country, and she knows what she must do. That Rand place her as the holder of the power in Cairhien is political, he is skilled in the great Game, and he puts a perosn who isn't aiel, but still doesn'y have any preferences among tho houses. And Rand knows that she's a good ruler. And there is no way she could manipulate him with a letter. And for the aiels affection for her, I think this is because she's... likeable, and they admire those who do what they must, as Berelain.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">One more kiss tonight from some tall stable girl<br />She&#8217;s like grace from the earth<br />When you&#8217;re all tuckered out and tame<br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-01-16 12:50:33
subject: <b>Rhuarc and Berelain</b>
body:
<b> 'I have daughters older than that young woman,' Rhuarc said. 'I don't believe she will tell anyone else. I think she would like to forget everything that happened tonight.' &quot; -- TSR, Reflection<br /><br />Rhuarc is already describing Berelain as a daughter, but what has conjured these patriarchal feelings?</b><br />To begin with Rhuarc is NOT describing Berelain as a daughter. That isn't what he said at all. He said his daughers are older. If I say my niece is older than someone I'm indicating that this person is a lot younger than me, not that I consider her my niece. We also know that he punished her in some way in Tear, probably in a humiliating beating, tho it is no way sure. The Aiel beat up lots of people for punishment, Moiraine's spies come to mind. <br />We know that Berelain is a bulldog, she doesn't let go easily...witness her stalking of Perrin. I think it is character for her to a) stay in Tear, close to the most powerful man who may help her protect her beloved Mayene, and b) follow him to Cairhien when she got word of him there.<br />In Cairhien is where Berelain and Rhuarc's relationship develops, not in Tear. It wouldn't be surprising to find B and R becoming friendly, they are forced by Rand to be around each other daily...they even share an office for christsakes! And it is more of a mentor/protoge relationship than anything else, Perrin's senses tell him this. Do you actually think that Mesaana would feel like a protoge to Rhuarc? If Mesaana is good enough to fool Perrin's nose than the forces of light have got a HUGE problem as Mesaana is devious beyond belief.<br /><br />NaCl(Mesaana is NOT Berelain)H2O<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Any comments on my photos appreciated</font><p><a href="http://saltwater.smugmug.com/" target="_blank">My photos, a work in progress</a></p><p></p>


created: 2005-01-16 14:13:57
subject: <b>As others have said above,</b>
body:
plus, even Faile has said she could like Berelain..but she put that detestable thought out of her mind.<br /><br />This Theory does not convince me that Berelain is Mesaana.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2005-01-16 14:34:17
subject: <b>Some responses</b>
body:
Phelix, yes that is the same Red sister that Rahvin used Compulsion on.  I'm not sure that the anonymous sister's flight from Caemlyn could have been induced by Rahvin, though.  It is an interesting question, however: could Compulsion last beyond the Compulser's death?  I'm not sure, but my interpretation is that the Red's flight was a genuine reaction upon hearing that another man that could channel was interested in her (I'm assuming that she learned Gaebril was Rahvin.)  In any case, can we assume that Be'lal did <i>not</i> use Compulsion on Berelain, if Berelain is just a mundane princess?  That's really why I used that comparison - the two situations seem entirely similar.  Two beautiful and young woman held against their will by a Forsaken until Rand arrives and kills said Forsaken, but their reactions to that turn of events couldn't be more contrary.<br /><br />Your second point is interesting, too, Phelix, but I draw different conclusions.  Rand has heard a bit about Berelain before their first meeting, but one of the quotes I provided seems to indicate that Rand mostly feels uneasiness about the things that he has heard.  He doesn't like the fact that she asks continual questions about him, understandable as that might be, and he can't understand why she hasn't returned to her own country.  Neither thing makes Rand comfortable with the First, and I think that her attempted seduction would naturally compound those feelings.  As for Berelain's manipulative powers, I'm not entirely sure that skill at manipulation, for whatever reason, is something that Rand will look on favorably.  Actually, he seems to react fairly violently to those that attempt to manipulate him.<br /><br />Phelix, and HK-47, as for the point about Berelain's regency, I don't know if you are aware of it, but you essentially echoed Rand's own reasons from LoC (<i>A Taste of Solitude</i> or thereabouts) for establishing Berelain as Regent in Cairhien.  The problem is, I don't buy any of them.  Berelain has certainly shown herself to be politically ambitious, and ruling Cairhien would seem a big step up from ruling tiny Mayene.  Not only that, but controlling a large northern rival to Tear could be very useful in maintaining Mayene's security.  I don't agree that Berelain thought she wouldn't stay on in Cairhien for longer than she did, either; she seemed surprised and upset when Rand dismissed her from the regency in <i>When the Plow Breaks the Earth</i>, a genuine reaction, IMO.  As far as Berelain's relations with the noble Houses goes, I think she has as much reason to favor one over the other as any ruler would.  She would naturally favor those that can provide what she wants or needs, and leave those that refuse to do so out in the cold.  The fact that there are no obvious examples of such favoritism can probably be attributed to Rhuarc's watchfulness, Rand's suspicious nature, and the brevity of Berelain's rule in Cairhien.  Given time, and considering the ambitiousness of Berelain's character, I'm pretty sure that the noble Cairhienin would have been manipulated to Berelain's advantage.<br /><br />HK-47, there is one thing that I did want to mention about the letter.  Mesaana was a teacher, and, being a teacher myself, it's quite natural for such professionals to control their students through paperwork.  That's one of the main aspects of the job: put an assignment in front of a person and their behavior changes accordingly.  To me, controlling people using letters, probably laced with Compulsion in some form, is a very natural ability for the one-time teacher Mesaana.<br /><br />Ahhh, NaClH2O.  I have to say that I was disappointed you didn't contribute to the &quot;To Snare a Falcon&quot; BB.  You seemed so sure that idea was a joke with no basis, I was really looking forward to your reaction to that revised theory.  Here, I have to agree with you; Mesaana is devious beyond your belief, and the forces of Light do have a HUGE problem.  As for the line that you pointed, we apparently disagree in how that should be interpreted.  For me, there is at least an implicit comparison in Rhuarc's mind between Berelain and his daughters.  If I meet a 4th grader, and say that she is about the same age as my niece, then there is something about that child that puts me in mind of Madison, otherwise I would use some other description.  <br /><br />But, we can actually skip all that and move directly on to LoC.  Let's assume for the sake of argument that Rhuarc doesn't equate Berelain to his daughters in any way until LoC (although it seems obvious to me with that Rhuarc's statement in TSR shows that these feelings began at that time.)  What happens in LoC to generate patriarchal feelings?  Once again, we don't know.  Whether in TSR or LoC, RJ simply does not explain the basis of this relationship.  One thing that we do see is Berelain's acceptance of the Cairhienin aping Aiel warrior customs.  Rhuarc is obviously not happy about that, but it still doesn't matter in terms of their positive relationship.  It's also important to note that Berelain is in Cairhien for a month or less before Rand goes to Cairhien for the first time.  That's still not much time, IMO, to overcome the Aiel's xenophobic nature and gain, not only acceptance, but a level of affection that Egwene herself does not enjoy.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Diomedes <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-01-16 14:35:54
subject: <b>That's OK, jofraz</b>
body:
I'm sure nothing will until RJ actually reveals as much.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Diomedes <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-01-16 16:31:13
subject: <b>wow</b>
body:
this theory is good, very good. it boggles the mind. berelain as mesaana. im sure i read somewhere that mesaana was involved with bel'al's plot. great work. can't say i agree but good idea nonetheless<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> let the speedbart ride again upon the winds of time <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Made the second post on the new WoTMB2 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-01-16 18:42:46
subject: <b>Thanks, speedbart!</b>
body:
You're entirely right, too.  That little detail comes up in the conversation between Sammael and Graendal in LoC, <i>Threads Woven of Shadow</i>.  I've been thinking that it is interesting how many Forsaken were operating around Tear at the end of TDR and beginning of TSR.  Be'lal of course, and Mesaana, but also Ishamael, Rahvin (through his servant Comar), Semirhage, Lanfear and Sammael.  Of course, many of those only appeared after Be'lal's demise, but I still think the confluence is remarkable, given the Forsakens' general distrust of each other, and their propensity to avoid direct confrontations with each other.<br /><br />There are two things I've wondered about recently.  One is if Demandred was in the area, too, disguised as the Kandori merchant that passes along the rumor about Whitecloaks in the Two Rivers to Mat.  The lack of prologue in TSR has always intrigued me, and I've thought that the first two chapters of that book might really occur on the same day.  The other is something that was mentioned on the MB recently: Sammael's fist and lightning bolts sigil was on the door of the carriage that carried Nynaeve, Egwene and Elayne to the Stone, so perhaps Sammael was also operating in Tear during TDR.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Diomedes <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-01-16 19:18:02
subject: <b>Maybe. Maybe not.</b>
body:
If Mesaana is Berelain, where did the REAL Berelain go?! She can't have ruled that tiny country for ever!<br />It's possible, of course. With RJ, everything is possible, and it's a good arguement. But - &quot;Why didn't Rand throw her out when she tried to manipulate him?&quot; It's obvious.<br /><br />Because she's a woman, and Rand frightened her! Remember Colavere and Selande? (not sure of the spelling.). He tried to help them and all, even though they were trying to tie strings to him. Berelain simply has more backbone. <br /><br />And why would Mesaana still be running about with Perrin? What about Min's VIEWINGS of Berelain?!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">i have severed all my former allegiances to The Forsaken Who Shall Not Be Named Any More Because She Was Dumb Enough To Get Captured (TFWSNBNAMBSWDETGC).<br /><br />sigh. now i must find a new forsaken to root for.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-01-16 20:43:20
subject: <b>to Diomedes</b>
body:
all of your words aside you still haven't explained how Mesaana has fooled Perrin's wolfbrother senses. Mesaana cannot know about those to begin with. I've only got 2 questions, if you can answer these to my satisfaction I, change my mind and declare Berelain is indeed Mesaana. The questions are:<br />a) How does Mesaana know that she has to change her emotions? She might know that Perrin can hear extraordinarily well, but how can she know he can sense emotions?<br />b)How does she change her emotions? Even for a good actor it isn't easy to GIVE THE APPEARANCE of an emotion, so how does she smell <br />&quot;The most remarkable thing, however, had been the way their scents combined, Rhurarc's and hers. To Perrin they had seemed he-wolf and near-grown cub; an indulgent father, fond of his daughter snd she of him, though sometimes he still had to nip her nose to make her behave properly&quot; LoC &quot;The Sending&quot;. <br />Pretending an emotion is one thing, actually having the emotion is something else again. Please, pray tell how does Mesaana manage this particular feat? First knowing that she must do this and then to actually do it?<br />NaCl(it's prolly impossible to fool Perrin's nose)H2O <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Any comments on my photos appreciated</font><p><a href="http://saltwater.smugmug.com/" target="_blank">My photos, a work in progress</a></p><p></p>


created: 2005-01-16 20:51:05
subject: <b>I imagine the original Berelain is dead.</b>
body:
Mesaana is certainly capable of such a murder.  Cadsuane makes an interesting comment when she encounters Berelain for the first time in <i>When the Plow Breaks the Earth</i>.  Cadsuane says, &quot;So this is your Berelain, Annoura.  She is more beautiful than I had heard.&quot;  I find it curious, because from our readers' perspective Berelain is really renowned for her beauty.  If Mesaana made a couple magical enhancements when she assumed Berelain's identity, that would make more sense.<br /><br />It's interesting that you mention Colavaere and Selande, because I almost included that as a contrast to Rand's reaction to Berelain in <i>Whirlpools in the Pattern</i>.  It's in TFoH, <i>News Comes to Cairhien</i>, when Colavaere attempts to seduce Rand via Selande, and Rand's reaction couldn't be more different from his reaction to Berelain.  Despite the similar circumstances, Selande's actions don't lead to any kind of trust, or positive feelings between Rand and Colavaere or Selande (or any of the other women that Colavaere launched at Rand.)  If anything, Rand feels pity for Selande at being used by Colavaere, and he is deeply suspicious of Colavaere herself.  That's obviously not the case with Berelain, but RJ never provides any real explanation for that contrast.<br /><br />As for Berelain's actions after ACoS with Perrin, I think she's still trying to attach to herself to a man of power.  Rand has essentially rebuffed her, so Mesaana is looking to the next most likely (in her mind) source.  Perrin is ta'veren, and one of the Dragon Reborn's close friends.  Despite Perrin's protests, he's seems an obvious candidate for gaining some major political major and power in the current age.  The importance of his association with Rand is also a good point for the Shadow to influence.  I think it will be a real irony that Rand and Perrin tried to stage a realistic falling out in <i>To Be Alone</i>, but Rand included the enemy in Perrin's entourage so their little scene in the Sun Palace was utterly meaningless in any case.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Diomedes <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-01-16 21:09:22
subject: <b>Good theory, but...</b>
body:
I like this theory, and to me it seems nearly water-tight except for one key thing.  If berelain is mesaana, why would she be running around after perrin like this?  all of the forsaken seem to know at least a rudimentary form of compulsion, so why not use it on perrin?  it seems to me that you have suggested she used the power to manipulate the aiel, so why not perrin too?  i think if berelain was really mesaana, faile would no longer be in the picture.  <br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I'm going to eat your children...<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/troll.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-01-16 21:20:16
subject: <b>Perrin's nose</b>
body:
It's not Perrin's nose that Berelain has fooled, but his mind.  Perrin frequently smells scents from Berelain that don't particularly make sense to him, and I also believe that he frequently misinterprets the emotions that he senses from Berelain.  Two examples that come to mind are Berelain being &quot;affronted&quot; when Perrin refuses to aknowledge her offer of truce in <i>Flags</i> and the fear scent that Berelain emits when talking about Masema's letter in <i>The Scent of Madness</i>, but the absence of that fear scent during the actual confrontation with Masema in the same chapter.<br /><br />As for the he-wolf and she-cub scebt mingling that Rhuarc and Berelain achieve in <i>The Sending</i>, I don't find that particularly surprising.  Especially when the rest of that scene is included.<br /><br />&quot;That point (when Faile almost decided to accompany Perrin chasing after Rand) had come when Berelain said she would be leading her Mayener Winged Guards in this chase.  Luckily, the moment had been gotten past quickly, if in an odd way.<br /><i>'If you leave the city Rand al'Thor has given to you as his hand,' Rhuarc said quietly, 'how many rumors will grow of it?  If you send all of your spears, how many rumors?  What will grow from those tales?'  It sounded like advice, and then again it did not; something in the clqn chief's voice made it much stronger.<br />Berelain gazed at him, smelling stubborn and head high.  Slowly the stubborn smell faded, and she muttered, 'Sometimes I think there are too many men who can...'  It was audible to Perrin.  Smiling she spoke aloud, in a remarkably regal tone.  'That is sound advice, Rhuarc.  I think that I will take it.'</i><br />The most remarkable thing....&quot;<br /><br />You pointed out yourself that Berelain and Rhuarc had been working in close proximity for weeks, and the scene from <i>Customs of Mayene</i> fully illustrated exactly how Rhuarc views their relationship.  Even in <i>An Embassy</i>, Berelain asks Sorilea and Amys to neglect mentioning her behavior with Egwene to Rhuarc.  It seems to me that Berelain/Mesaana is fully aware of the limitations that she faces with Rhuarc, and I think that Perrin is simply smelling the dynamic of that relationship.  Your right, it takes an incredible actor to so fully assume the role that she is attempting to fulfill, however momentarily.  If Mesaana is truly masquerading in this fashion, however, it is apparent that she has had long practice at such machinations.  It must be difficult, after all, for a mere school teacher to achieve such heights of power as to be acclaimed one of the Chosen.  All the other Forsaken are playing similar roles to those they played in the War of Power, and I imagine that Mesaana is no exception.  It would be quite advantageous to have an agent that could insinuate herself into relationships with the most powerful members of the opposition.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Diomedes <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-01-16 22:11:10
subject: <b>Running after Perrin.</b>
body:
Grolm, there is one major point when it comes to Perrin.  Mesaana wants to be in a position to wield power and influence.  Rand has proven to be remarkably resistent to her attempts at remaining close to that particular source of power.  Berelain's considerable charms cannot defeat Rand's desire to protect the women around him.  Having failed with Rand, one of his friends is the next most obvious choice.  The other two ta'veren are also well known to Ishamael and the Shadow, so I don't think it's surprising that Berelain would look to Perrin as a source of power and influence.  I think the Shadow in general understands by the time of TSR that the three boys from Emond's Field are going to be some of the most powerful men of the Age.<br /><br />In terms of cotrolling people through Compulsion, there is an interesting point that comes from the beginning of <i>Customs of Mayene</i>.  Berelain tries to enlist Perrin as a messenger boy to tell Rand that she's leaving Tear.  When Perrin declines to fulfill such a role, Berelain is totally surprised.  &quot;Incredulous&quot; is the adjective that RJ uses in that scene.  Considering Berelain's mumbled comment to herself in the quote that included in my response to NaClH2O above, &quot;Sometimes I think there are too many men that can...&quot; I think it's likely that Mesaana finds it difficult controlling such men as Perrin, Rand and Rhuarc.  They are all able to resist her attempts at manipulation (possibly Compulsion, but Berelain's attempts to get what she wants in any case.)  We know from Rahvin that strong-willed people are able to resist Compulsion, and I think that Mesaana may not be that skilled at the super-overt style of Compulsion that Rahvin, Graendal and even Moghedien have used.  It's my belief that Mesaana is skilled at the more subtle use of Compulsion that Verin uses in <i>Deceptive Appearances</i>.  She's able to assume the role that people expect of her, and turn that role to her advantage.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Diomedes <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-01-16 22:27:28
subject: <b>Beautifully written theory Diomedes</b>
body:
BUT I don't buy it. Partially for reasons stated above by some other posters regarding Perrin's abilities. Also as I read it Rhuarc's, and Amy's and Sorilea's feelings and attitude are perfectly in tune with the Aiel social mores. I read between the lines (ie guessed) that Rhuarc gave Berelain a spanking, a non-erotic one, as a punishment for some attitude or other. It was her conduct AFTER this punishment that endeared her to him, she is obviously to the Aiel way of thinking, a woman of honour.<br /><br />Also her sexual forwardness is in keeping with both Aiel conduct (if you fancy someone let them know) and would appeal to their sense of humour (they would be amused by how some wetlanders would react).<br /><br />Her men have known her for many years, if Mesaana has disposed of the original Berelain and then assumed her appearance then we need to assume that the prominent Mayeners such as Nurelle and Gallene have been under Compulsion since the body-swap, not to mention Annoura (unless she is BA). But if so then we should see some sort of comment even in passing that Berelain is acting oddly from a few others.<br /><br />Also there is the support of the Mayener Winged Guard in Rand's rescue at Dumai's Wells. If we are to believe that Demandred and Mesaana planned that bit of farce between them to get Rand into the Tower and into Mesaana's direct control (taken from various Forsaken POV's), and we believe that Sammael and Greandal put the fly into the ointment with the Shaido; then we need to believe that Mesaana was already planning some sort of insurance days before the battle at Dumai's Wells. Note I am of the opinion that Taim and his Asha'man were not aligned with any of the above Forsaken at this juncture. Mesaana's actions would make no sense in this scenario.<br /><br />Look, all things aside Diomedes, a really well written, if flawed, theory.


created: 2005-01-17 00:48:17
subject: <b>Dio my friend, some more points</b>
body:
It is a very nice theory, but I'm sticking to disagreeing with it.<br /><br />About the Red sister, you explain yourself why she flees in panic. She's worried about another man who can channel messing with her. (And any compulsion woven on a person lasts even after the death of the compulsor, the weave is tied off on the person, and we've learned that tied off weaves last beyond the death of their weaver.) The Red fled either because she feared being manipulated again, or after such a bad brush with a male channeler, she wasn't confident enough to try taking on Rand. Berelain comes into this situation at an opposite, she didn't know who High Lord Sammon was, and she wanted to do what was best for her country, which probably means getting a good connection with the man who just conquered Tear. You say that their situations are entirely similar, but in reality they're very disparate. One was held against her will, compulsed, and used against all she stood for, the other was held against her will and had attempts at breaking her will. Different, yet with some base similarities.<br /><br />Berelain... what to say about Berelain. On her relationship with Rhuarc, the comment you reference to show his feelings for her as a daughter should be interepreted as NaClH2O is saying. The reason he references his daughters there, is that he knows how to deal with girls that age, and probably does not want to do so again. His comparison between them is solely based on their age. It's not yet anything like &quot;I feel like she is a third (or however many) daughter to me.&quot; <br /><br />I agree with MickeyDee on the Amys and Sorielea idea. They like how straightforward Berelain is. She does what is necessary, what she wants, and pays for it later. Also, she in some ways, acts along the guides of ji'e'toh. Her punishment with Rhuarc, she acts as if the whole thing never happened, which is what you're supposed to do with the payment of toh. There is a lot in Berelain that the WO can simpathize with.<br /><br />Berelain probably expected her regency to last longer than it did, but no one in their right mind would expect a foreign ruler to maintain a regency in another country for too long. There would be factions constantly trying to overthrow her, factions trying to gain her favor by trading more favorably with Mayene. Also, most monarchies have a concept of genetic right to rule. The ruler passes the throne to his heir. A foreigner doesn't fit that scheme at all.<br /><br />That's about all I can think of right now, but I'll comment again, when I find more to do so about. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Warder to Be'lal's Girl<br />Wotmania Lottery<br /><br /><br /><br />&quot;Meh. A good relationship is like fireworks: loud, explosive, and liable to maim you if you hold on too long.&quot; ~ Sven, Questionable Content<br /><br />Bonded by Sidious. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-01-17 03:33:13
subject: <b>Original theory</b>
body:
In my view there is no way that Berelain is Mesaana.<br />Too many proofs rule this idea out.<br /><br />As I already said in the past, Mesaana had not only to fool Perrin's nose, but also Min's viewings:<br />&quot;I saw nothing of any use to you. Just a man in white who will make her fall head over heels. Some women have no shame at all!&quot; (LoC, ch.50)<br /><br />Normally Min sees lots of viewings around a channeler. <br /><br />Plus, no one can seriously believe that RJ really intends to let a Forsaken suddenly fall in love with another minor character.  <br /><br />But also Egwene's Dreams of Berelain as the hawk are rather harmless and just imply a fight between Faile and Berelain to get Perrin. <br />They are not monstrous nightmares like other Dreams with Shadow involvement.<br /><br />Furthermore, Mesaana had to foul the WO or other persons who can enter dreams.<br /><br />Egwene spies in Berelain's normal dreams and sometimes they make her blush:<br />&quot;That light was Berelain, the First of Mayene, the woman Rand had put in charge in Cairhien. Looking into Berelain's dreams made Egwene uncomfortable. Usually they were no different from any other woman's&#8212;any woman interested equally in power, politics and the latest fashion in dresses&#8212;but sometimes Berelain dreamed of men, even men Egwene knew, in a way that made Egwene blush to remember.&quot; (LoC, ch.14)<br /><br />We never saw that it is possible to fake your own dreams for such a spy.<br />Forsaken shield their dreams, or if they don't shield them paranoia, sullenness etc. spread, as we see in TDR. <br /><br />It is clear that Berelain has to be someone in the WT and doesn't spend her time with riding through the woods with Perrin and Co. <br /><br />In my opinion she is a secretary/clerk without a disguise. <br />That's the reason why she wants to kill Alviarin after she saw her true, somewhat familiar face in CoT, ch.21.<br />If Berelain were Mesaana's disguise, she had no need for this.<br /><br />Nevertheless I admire the effort you put into this original theory.


created: 2005-01-17 04:44:35
subject: <b>Nah...</b>
body:
You seem to forget an early piece of information in the books: in tDR rumours of all the freak occurences cased by Rand`s ta`verenism reaches the party of Moraine et al travelling after Rand to Tear. One of the incidents we hear of are reffered to thus: <br /><br />&#8220;(...)The First of Mayene, a &#8216;guest&#8217; in the Stone since before the winter,<br />announced today that she will submit to the will of the High Lords, after saying yesterday she<br />would see Mayene and all its ships burn before one Tairen country lord set foot in the city. They had not brought themselves to torture her, and that young woman has a will like iron, so you tell me if you think it might be Rand&#8217;s doing.(...)<br />(Lan, Chp. 53, A Flow of the Spirit,The Dragon Reborn)<br /><br />This would seem to indicate that Berelain is susceptible to Rand&#8217;s ta&#8217;veren abilities (if we assume that some people are more affected than ther, and I think that is a safe guess). And even if Rand isn&#8217;t with the party we are told know of this, it wouldn&#8217;t seem to farfetched that he as well would have heard the rumour somewhere in Tear.<br />It is likely that his knowledge of this fact could influence his decission to lay faith in Berelain: if he thinks he has some sort of grip over her through his ta&#8217;verenism he might think he can manipulate him; and we all know how impotant manipulation has become to Rand in the course of the later books.<br /><br />This coupled with all the contrary information set forth in the posts above gives me due reason to vote NO for this theory.<br />


created: 2005-01-17 07:03:04
subject: <b>Customs of Mayene</b>
body:
It was great pleasure for me to read this theory even if I have completely different believes both about Berelain and Mesaana.<br /><br />Berelain's different behavior towards Rand in comparison to other characters, could be IMO well explained by the difference of Mayene customs in comparison to customs of other nations. We have not so many examples of Mayene behavior, but we have some - the winged guards and a Sitter for the Green Ajah in Tar Valon Hall named Rubinde - different sorts of persons all of them having some similar traits, especially in situations of challenge. Mayeners usually try to express themselves ceremoniousless and even shameless, and they try to look very brave in situations, but when they meet somebody who ruthlessly and openly works his will, the mayeners obey with sudden readyness and ven enthusiasm, and in this case they are reliable helpers. Even the mayener traditional art of seduction seems to have these traits (I hope soon one my theory about Maene customs will be posted). Berelain as a true and very typical mayene woman will act according to her country's customs, it will be drained in her blood. Prestige, reputation, sense of honour everything else related to self-respect is dependent for her of the proper reaction to extreme situations. She has to face the challenge bravely and as if it's just a simple game for her, and if she fails, she has to obey - that's IMO the mayener traditional art of behavior against dangerous persons. Berelain behaves just as would be expectexd from a typical mayene to Aielmen, to Rand and to Perrin....<br /><br />btw, the example of the young Red sister is rather an exception of a reaction of a woman with political ambitions than a rule. I would remind all of the Cairhienin noblewomen desperately attempting to get close to Rand, the Andoran nobles who were close to Rahvin, who attempted to gain Rand's attention, even the behavior of the other Tairen nobles - scared or not most nobles actually attempted to be close to Rand and to get his attention. The Red sister in Andor reacted so because of aftershock of Rahvin's compulsion, and because of general weaknesses of the Red Ajah (due to them the greatest Ajah failed to have raised an Amyrlin for nearly 1000 years! Such discrepance between the numbers and the political influence of an Ajah is evidence about serious weaknesses of the said Ajah).<br /><br />Rand's trust to Berelain:<br />It is a good question, why he trusts her so much, but there are enough factors that can sufficiently explain his trust, especially when combined together:<br />1. Rand scared her very much. Scaring a woman is not the same as hurting a woman, but for Rand there is some ... similarity between both. Scaring a woman Rand usually feels guilty. Feeling guilty makes him easier to act milder to this woman afterwards. He regreted his behavior to Selande even if seeing it was necessary, and IMHO if this young woman was in position to be used by Rand for some purpose, he would use her. After Rand &quot;hurted&quot; Colavaere, it was already too late to do anything, even if he tried. To mention is Rand's decision in WH to change his orders about the leaders of the Tairen rebels because there is a Lady Estanda among them - something he wouldn't do if there was no Lady there. Alone this guilt-feeling will be not enough for Rand's trust, but it helps a lot.<br />2. In Tear Rand is excellently informed about the plots of every high-ranked noble around him. Rand has good sources about everybody - Thom, Moiraine, Elayne (from them only Elayne has negative feelings about Berelain, and she is the less important source of information). Berelain is the only high-ranked noble in Tear who isn't seen to scheme against Rand. The only one. Rand would be impressed by that fact.<br />3. Aielmen, bothe clan chiefs and Wise Ones have very high opinion about Berelain, what is an odd exception to their usual opinion to wettlanders. This would also impress. And Aiels are trusted source.<br />4. Rand often gives high posts and important tasks to persons he doesn't trust. Too often soon after that Rand realizes that the respective noble did some scheming around him. Usually these nobles try it again and again even efter them being revealed. There are very few exceptions from this rule. Dobraine e.g. is trusted only because he prove by his actions that he isn't like the majority. Berelain did also. Her loyalty is just proven by facts after she got the regency.<br />5. In the circumstances Berelain was the best candidate for the post of Caihrien's regency unrelated to Rand's trust to her. She was neither Cairhienin nor Tairen and so she was a compromise neutral figure, she expressed her reserveless support until now, she has her military backup (i.e. she is not helpless). And unlike any other westlander noble she is trusted by Aiels and can be expected to corraborate willingly and well with them - something very important for a stewart of Cairhien.<br /><br />Aiel trust to Berelain. We know about one sure way to get the trust of Aiels - to be able to face the own toh in circumstances. Usually westlanders stuck into unwanted situation promise something and try to get around. Berelain in her feirst attempt to seduce Rhuarc got into some unpleasant situation and mastered to face teh consequences in a way the Aiel respect. Such situation is something that older Aiels usually react in semi-adopting the corresponding wetlander (as they did to Egwene or later to Min). A meyene woman has good chances to act like Aiels would like, because mayeners can combine ambition and unceremoniouslessness with enthusiastic obedience and willingfull lestening to supreme experience. In other cases we see that mayeners usually cope with communication with Aielmen quite successfully.<br /><br />About Mesaana - it will be difficult to explain everything we know about Mesaana's actions (from her PoVs and from the opinions of other Forsaken) and Mesaana's character into her being Berelain. On the meeting with the other Forsaken Mesaana said that she is expecting Rand been soon delivered to her. It was even something that Graendal's PoV interpreted as something Mesaana was unwanting to say. If Mesaana dod it only to lie to the other Forsaken, it would be IMO too much subtle move even for a Forsaken. If it was really what she expected it is hardly to be combined with her role of Berelain. The Tar Valon plan to kidnap Rand was too much under Alviarin's control, and Alviarin is too much under Mesaana's control, while Berelain acts rather revealing the kidnapping -  why should Mesaana act so.<br /><br />Mesaana never expressed taste to act like a vamp (unlike to many other Forsaken). Usually she is pedantic, dry, teacher-like etc. She looks dreamy and has other manierisms unusual for Berelain. Mesaana doesn't like the visible power signs (while Berelain likes it), but Mesaana is especially sensitive about being directly humiliated even for a Forsaken. E.g. Semirhage pulls her out of control quite easily by simply reminding her about her past humiliation of being a teacher. And Mesaana falling in love to Perrin is just unbelievable.<br /><br />


created: 2005-01-17 08:32:19
subject: <b>A for effort, but...</b>
body:
Sorry, I can't buy it.<br />I can accept that Berelain invited Rhuarc to dinner one night, and tried to seduce him.  She is attracted to power, we've all seen this.  But how would Rhuarc respond to this?  He'd see right through it, of course, and probably turn her over his knee.  That is one thing that Berelain would never want Faile to see.<br />Later, in Cairhein, Rhuarc is amused by watching Berelain in her business like personna.  And if he's a little proud of her too, it's because he feels she's improving under his guidance.<br /><br />


created: 2005-01-17 11:28:18
subject: <b>building from Etzel's comments...</b>
body:
RJ has provided us with a few clues to Mesaana's identity. The biggest clues are the clothing that she is wearing when Alvairin grabs her skirts and when she is punished by SH. Close examination should be made of this clothing, but IIRC, it does not match up at all with what Berelain wears.<br /><br /><br />In addition, the punishement of Mesaana in CoT is very important. How does this timing match up with whatever Barelain is doing in Altara? We have an army on the march - it is not so easly for Berelain to slip out - travel without notice from the Aiel Wise Ones and get back again. However good an actress Mesaana is there would be evidence in Berelain's character after this punishment. IIRC, there is no shift in Berelain's character post punishment.<br /><br />The combination of this, Perrin's nose, Egwene's dreams and dream-spying, Min's viewings, and the interactions with Rhurac and other Aiel leave no room for Berelain to Mesaana in disguise. I'm no Berelain fan, but the evidence all adds up to her being on the side of good - even if she is a tramp with no respect for love and marriage.<br /><br />BTW - even though I believe your theory is very wrong, I like the thinking, keep these 'out of the box' theories coming.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Need a book to read - check out my blog for ideas.</font><p><a href="http://nethspace.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">Neth Space</a></p><p></p>


created: 2005-01-17 12:57:35
subject: <b>Another point</b>
body:
In one of your responses above, you brought up the fact that Mesaana wanted to be close to one of the taveren.<br />After Rand rejected her, she went after Perrin.<br /><br />But, between those two encounters, Mat tried to strike an acquaintence with Berelain, and she did not respond to him.<br />He heard her mumble something about him being too much like her as she was leaving.<br /><br />This refutes 2 of your reasons:<br /><br />Mesaana could have been close to a taveren without battling for Perrin.<br /><br />Mesaana, a teacher, is nothing like Mat, but Berelain, a free-wheeling woman, is very much like Mat. The difference is that Mat is much more honorable.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2005-01-17 13:15:44
subject: <b>Disagree</b>
body:
As it was pointed out, you can't fool the wolves senses. People are incapable of faking emotions. True, you can fool people, but when Perrin knows the emotion he is right 100 %. Plus, Min sees colorful halos around ALL channelers. She would recognize it around Berelian, if she was Mesaana. You can't fool Min's viewing at all and you can't fake it. Also, Egwene was able to spy on her dreams. No Forsaken will allow that if he is hiding. And when Forsaken does that - see Illian and Tear. We have no indications of that about Berelian. Also, Wise Ones (in Cairhien and Perrin's group) would be alarmed if they can't see Berelian's dreams.<br /><br />To kcf:<br />Punishment to Mesaana came later. It was way before Cleansing when she was riding thru forest with Perrin. Cleansing started when Perrin's group was scouting Shaido camp. Notice that this time Asha'man and Aes Sedai startled to north. I think in the next book we will see Perrin again and if Berelian has no visual indication of punishment then we can easily rule her out.


created: 2005-01-17 13:36:50
subject: <b>Jofraz raises a good point</b>
body:
The scene with Mat and Berelain in TSR, ch.13 is harldy explainable if Berelain is Mesaana:<br /><br />'He saw Berelain coming toward him and grinned in spite of himself. For all her airs, she was a fine figure of a woman. That clinging white silk was thin enough for a handkerchief, not to mention being scooped low enough at the top to expose a considerable amount of excellent pale bosom.<br />He swept her his best bow, elegant and formal. &#8220;A good evening to you, my Lady.&#8221; She started to sweep by without a glance, and he straightened angrily. &#8220;Are you deaf as well as blind, woman? I&#8217;m not a carpet to walk over, and I distinctly heard myself speak. If I pinch your bottom, you can slap my face, but until I do, I expect a civil word for a civil word!&#8221;<br />The First stopped dead, eyeing him in that way women had. She could have sewn him a shirt and told his weight, not to mention when he had his last bath, from that look. Then she turned away, murmuring something to herself. All he caught was &#8220;too much like me.&#8221;'<br /><br />Why would Mesaana mumble to herself that Mat is too much like her? Makes no sense.<br /><br /><br />Plus, I just found at Thus Spake the Creator the following report from a RJ signing:<br /><br />'Some dude asked if perrin's Hawk had appeared yet. The answer: &quot;I thought that was fairly obvious. What is the symbol of Mayene? What is the CROWN of Mayene?&quot; i.e. Berelain, for all of you who actually doubted that. RJ also said Berelain is attracted to Perrin partly bc he's the first man she wanted and couldn't get which is interesting, partly because he's buff, and partly bc she thinks it'd be kinky to make it with a blacksmith. (On the anvil???)'<br /><br />RJ confirms here that Berelain is interested in Perrin as a man.<br />That means her motive is not a Forsaken plot to manipulate a ta'veren.   <br />


created: 2005-01-17 14:00:23
subject: <b>Can not accept Berelain is Mesaana</b>
body:
First, I can not accept that Berelain is Mesaana.  We know that SH put Mesaana in her place.  Where did this take place?  The White Tower.  Not to mention the logistics of keeping both disguises maintainable.  The second incident that I think is proof that she is not a forsaken is her dual with Faile over Perrin.  You can not honestly believe that Mesaana, a powerful, knowledgeable channeler from the AOL would let an obnoxious non-channeler stop her from getting what she wanted over the course of how many books?<br /><br />I believe Berelain is definitely embedded into the &#8220;light friend&#8221; camp.  I know there are theories about her that she was the mastermind behind Faile&#8217;s capture, which I do not agree with.  <br /><br />Berelain is a beautiful, smart and resourceful young lady who has the potential to be a good ruler.  She has a way to make people listen and she has a knack with politics.  She is young and a little too arrogant.  The aiel see this potential and her short comings and if they have a way to help influence her (and through her influence Rand) they will use what tools and resources are available to save the remnant of a remnant.  <br />She knows that through her service she can not only save Mayene but make Mayene a more secure and powerful country.  Like you said she can play the game of house very well.  She absolutely made decisions when in charge of Cairhien that would have benefited Mayene.  But that is also why she was such a good choice.  Whatever decisions she did make couldn&#8217;t be blatantly attributed to her helping Mayene, all her decisions helped Rand and Cairhien.  <br />Berelain&#8217;s biggest flaw is her childish quarrel with Faile over Perrin, which touched her spoiled sense of pride and which she can not accept.  Other than that she does what is best for Rand and his plans and what is best for her country and her people.  I mean other than the men she has with her, Mayene has been untouched by the chaos that has plagued Randland.  I think she has done quite a good job.  Now she just has to find her man in white, leave Perrin alone, and stay out of the story line as much as possible so we can finish the series. <br />


created: 2005-01-17 14:09:40
subject:
<b>I've been waiting for this one! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /></b>

body:
It's obvious from the theory that you put an awful lot of time and effort into this, Diomedes.  However, like all the others, I'm afraid I can't agree.  Here's just one more peice of evidence against it:<br /><br />When Elayne and Nyn are in T'A'R in LOC, they Need themselves onto the streets of Tar Valon.  The description of people falling, screaming, general chaos etc., matches the description of Tanchico in TSR that Egwene gives (where Moggy is present).  This can be corrollated to the real-world descriptions of Forsaken-controlled cities in TDR.  We haven't had a description of Tar Valon in the flesh, but we know that the general state of the city has gone to pot, with all the dirt and trash, rats, etc.<br /><br />However, none of this is present in Cairhien.  When Egwene walks the streets of the city in LOC, pretty much the only description we have of the city in itself, she describes tension between the people, but no filth, degredation, anger, etc. that is caused by the presence of a Forsaken.  In addition, there are three dreamwalkers, plus Egwene, entering T'A'R from the Cairhien area every night.  There is no mention of decay or a &quot;evil&quot; in the Cairhien T'A'R like there is in Tanchico or Tar Valon (which Amys notices immediately in TSR, by the way).  If Mesaana is spending as much time as would be necessary in the &quot;Berelain&quot; persona, this Forsaken-induced havoc would be present.


created: 2005-01-17 17:03:47
subject: <b>Wow! Thanks, everyone!</b>
body:
I'm glad to see so many people contributing to this BB.<br /><br />MickeyDee, I think we simply disagree about how Berelain's behavior aligns with Aiel behavior.  I have never seen anything that convinces me Berelain's behavior is particularly Aiel-like, before or after her conversation with Rhuarc in the Stone.  Chasing after a man that has already declared his interest in another woman is definitely not worthy of ji.  Sulin's comment proves as much, and let's not entirely dismiss what happened to Isendre when she persisted in chasing Rand.  And Phelix, I don't think the point of ji'e'toh is to forget what brought on a punishment, but to understand that is dishonorable and to avoid repeating it.  If Berelain actually was punished by Rhuarc for an attempt at seduction, I'm not convinced that her attempts at seducing Perrin would be worthy of ji.<br /><br />I also agree, MickeyDee, that Mesaana would not be able to complete her ruse without the aid of Annoura and Gallenne.  I tend to discount Havien Nurelle, because Berelain doesn't ever appear to confer with anyone other than her captain or her advisor.  Whether or not those two are willing accomplices, I don't find it difficult to believe that Mesaana could enlist whatever information or aid she needed from them in order to insure her disguise.  I also have no problem with the Winged Guards being sent with Perrin.  It's apparent to me that Mesaana was trying to play both sides of that scheme.<br /><br />Phelix, you don't seem to think that the Red sister in Caemlyn would have just as much reason to be close to Rand as Berelain.  I disagree.  Being a Red, and with Elaida as Amyrlin, this Red sister should be as motivated as Moiraine, Alanna, Verin, Cadsuane and both embassies to establish a connection with the Dragon Reborn.  One of the things that all Aes Sedai seem to agree about is that Rand should not be running around without strings connecting him to the Tower and (in the case of some sisters) controlling his every move.  One of the things I find interesting about Berelain's reaction after her encounter with Rand in <i>Whirlpools in the Pattern</i> is the message that Perrin refuses to deliver for her: <br /><br />&quot;Tomorrow I will leave by carriage for Mayene.  I should have gone days ago, but I thought there must be some way to work matters out.  Only, there wasn't, of course.  I should have seen that sooner.  Tonight convinced me.  The way he....All that lightning, flowing down the halls.  I will leave tomorrow.&quot;<br /><br />That's from <i>Customs of Mayene</i>, and I think it's interesting because it contradicts the notion that Berelain is sticking around Rand solely for the betterment of Mayene.  After all, that very same day Rand took the High Lords to task in <i>Hard Heads</i> because they wouldn't give Mayene the favorable trade terms that he wanted.  I'm also surprised that lightning flying down the halls in the midst of a Trolloc and Myrddraal attack in the Stone and killing all the bad guys, disconcerting as it may be, would convince a ruler in Berelain's position that she couldn't work matters out with Rand.  It certainly didn't stop any of the High Lords from attempting to work matters out to their own advantage. <br /><br />I also don't want you to think, Phelix, that I'm trying to suggest that Rhuarc sees Berelain as a daughter in TSR, and if that one comment was unique I would probably agree with NaClH2O's interpretation.  When that comment is put alongside all the subsequent interactions between Berelain and the Aiel in LoC, however, I think it's entirely evident that Rhuarc was <i>beginning</i> to have those patriarchal feelings in TSR.  The comparison to his daughters is entirely explicit, even if it is only their ages, and is evidence that Rhuarc is already beginning to think along the lines that we see fully develop in LoC.  For me, in any case, I have never seen anything in the story that fully explains that relationship.<br /><br />I'd also disagree with your conclusions about Berelain's potential rule of Cairhien.  There is ample evidence that some of the Tairin High Lords believed they could gain Cairhien's throne, and, especially in Cairhien, it's apparent that succession is not entirely dependent on heredity.  And in the case of Berelain, the ability to claim a connection, however tenous, to the legendery Artur Hawkwing might just give her some legitimacy.<br /><br />Etzel, as usual you raise some very intereting points.  I would point out, however, that the meaning of Min's viewing about Berelain is far from certain.  Whether that viewing fits with the idea that Berelain is Mesaana or not is difficult to ascertain until we do know the viewing's true meaning.  In thinking about Min's ability generally, I would point out that Min did not see any auras around Selene in <i>First Claiming</i>.  Nor does she <i>always</i> see auras around channelers, just more frequently than around others.  The problem with so few viewings for Berelain may stem from lack of opportunit, since that scene from <i>Thorns</i> you mentioned is the only time we know of that Min was in position to view Berelain.  Actually, in that respect Min is 1 for 1 in viewing Berelain, so I would think it's hard to argue that Berelain doesn't have enough visions to her credit to possibly be a channeler.  <br /><br />Witht the Dreamers, Etzel, I would disagree that her dreams regarding the hawk and Perrin are entirely harmless, because one has the hawk tying a leash to Perrin.  There is also Egwene's recent dream about Perrin and the Tinker cutting their way through human brambles to a cliff that neither of them see.  I think this could very well point to an unseen danger like Mesaana unknowingly in their midst.  With the Egwene's Dreams, to, I think it is also important to point out that relatively few of her Dreams deal directly with the Forsaken.<br /><br />In terms of Berelain's dreams, it wouldn't make much sense for them to be shielded in any case.  That would certainly alert the Wise Ones that Berelain wasn't exactly who she appeared to be, and I don't find it unbelievable that Mesaana would know that Amys, Melaine, Bair and Egwene are all Dreamwalkers and take the necessary precautions.  I also disagree that Mesaana couldn't &quot;fake&quot; her dreams.  We know from Egwene's recount of touching Amys' dream in <i>A Departure</i> and Egwene's fears about being drawn into one of the Dreamwalkers' dreams in <i>Dreams and Nightmares</i> that the Aiel Dreamwalkers have considerable control over their own dreams.  If Mesaana could detect a spy, or was protecting against Dream spies in any case, I don't find it difficult to believe that she could insure that any dreams that the spy saw would not reveal her identity.<br /><br />Nor do I think that the effect the Forsaken have on the dreams of the people around them is entirely beyond their control, or entirely dependent on shielding their dreams.  In all the verifiable cases that the Forsaken have adversely effected other's dreams, that is Be'lal in Tear, Sammael in Illian, Moghedien in Tanchico and Rahvin in Caemlyn, the Forsaken all benefited from the chaos that their dream-effect was having.  Especially considering the Dreamwalkers in Cairhien, Mesaana would be well advised to curtail such an effect if she could.<br /><br />Khitab, that is an interesting quote that you provided, but it doesn't necessarily mean that Berelain's decision was influenced by Rand's ta'veren nature.  Even Lan seems to question whether that is actually the case.  As there was no follow up to the notion that Mayene would submit to the High Lords of Tear, it's difficult to ascertain any deeper meaning to the rumor.  It could even indicate that Mesaana was aware that Rand was finally closing in on the Stone and Callandor, and was simply the next step in whatever plot Mesaana and Be'lal were executing together.  It could even be an insurance ploy by Mesaana: If Rand wins, he might feel more sympathy for a damsel in distress at the hands of the nasty High Lords of Tear.<br /><br />I think it's curious, a dragonburned fool, that you don't like the theory based on traditional Mayener customs.  Berelain is the source of almost everything that we know about Mayene's culture.  If Berelain's conduct was not entirely consistent with those customs, I don't think there is any way we could tell.  Looking to Havien Nurelle and Gallenne is difficult because they are both men, which changes the effect Mayene culture has on them, and they are mostly reacting to Berelain's commands.  I would agree that their interactions within a hierarchy are more casual than in other societies, but I'm not sure how much that reveals about the veracity of Berelain's own behavior.<br /><br />It's also great that you brought up Rubinde, because I had forgotten that she was also Mayener, but the problem with looking to her as another example of Mayener culture is that she only occurs very briefly in <i>An Unwelcome Return</i> and <i>A Mark</i>.  It's difficult to deduce much about Mayene from those two short encounters.  I did notice that RJ neglects to describe Rubinde's dress in either of those scenes, although I imagine Elaida, at least, would have had something to say about it if it was as scandalous as Berelain's.  Elaida certainly thinks with disapproval of Joline's close-fitting dress in <i>The First Sparks Fall</i>.<br /><br />I really like your list reasons for Rand's trust in Berelain, too, dragonburned fool.  One problem that I have with it is the closed nature of the argument.  One of your main points is that Rand trusts Berelain because of her relationship with the Aiel, but if those relationships are based on false pretenses than so is the trust that it illicits in Rand.<br /><br />Rand does frequently give prominent positions to nobles that he doesn't trust, but my problem is this is not really the case with Berelain.  Rand contemplates giving Berelain the regency in Cairhien as soon as he receives her letter, and there is no indication at that time that he is suspicious of her.  That's unlike his decisions about the various responsibilities he hands to the High Lords in TSR, or to his thoughts about the various nobles that are with him during the Seanchan campaign in TPoD.  In both instances, Rand is clearly thinking about using those nobles while remaining suspicious of their ambitions.  He's even setting up the situations to check those ambitions as best he can.  Rand doesn't feel any such suspicion about Berelain, even before she is actually established as regent and Cairhien and shows herself trustworthy through her skilled administration.  As you pointed out, Dobraine, and I would Bashere, are counter-examples to this.  Both men have had to go to extreme lengths to prove to Rand that they are worthy of his trust.<br /><br />Your points about Mesaana are also well taken, but the truth there is, I think, a misconception about the plot to kidnap Rand.  It was not Mesaana or Alviarin's, but Elaida's, and it's something that I plan on addressing in full in my next theory about Mesaana in the White Tower.  I also don't see that much in Mesaana's behavior that directly contradicts Berelain's.  Mesaana only has one POV in <i>The First Message</i>, and three brief scenes with Alviarin.  dragonburned fool, you describe Mesaana as pedantic from her recital about angreal and sa'angreal that she gives the other Forsaken, but I would point out that Berelain also gets a little pedantic in describing the situation in Cairhien to Rand in <i>A Taste of Solitude</i>.  Berelain also tries to educate Rand about the Sea Folk in her letter to Min, so I think there is some confluence of character traits between Mesaana and Berelain.<br /><br />dbarron, I can certainly appreciate that this scenario seems unlikely to most people.  One of my main points, though, is that we just don't know what happened when Berelain and Rhuarc had their first meeting.  If Mesaana is Berelain, she probably tried to seduce Rhuarc, and when she saw that she couldn't succeed (Rhuarc being a very stong-willed man) she left him with the impression of an outcome that he could accept.  Graendal uses Compulsion in a similar manner on the Domani.  In <i>Threads Woven of Shadow</i>, Graendal tells Sammael that all the nobles that visit her see what she wants them to see, an old woman that supports that particular person's agenda and no others.  Graendal has even used that ploy on Ituralde, another seemingly strong-willed gentleman.  When Mesaana realized that seducing Rhuarc wouldn't work, she had to find a role that would be beneficial for herself that Rhuarc could accept, so Rhuarc is left with the impression that he handled the situation as ji'e'toh demands and Berelain accepted as much.  In <i>Customs of Mayene</i>, she's furious because her ploy backfires on her, and there is nothing that she can do about it at the time without giving her disguise away.<br /><br />hey there, kcf!  I'm glad you added a bit to the BB.  Personally, I think that the clue about the hem of Mesaana's dress in TPoD is more or less a red herring.  It's too minute and general to be very useful, IMO, and I think that I remember one of Berelain's dresses is similar to the bronze of the hem.  It's too bad that RJ doesn't describe Mesaana's dress more fully in <i>A Mark</i> before Shaidar Haran destroys it, but then again that could be a very purposeful choice on his part.  The other clue that Alviarin puts stock in is the lip-tapping that Mesaana does in <i>Lightnings</i>.  Berelain also taps her lips in <i>A Taste of Solitude</i> and she rubs her lips and does one or two other lip-related gestures in TPoD and WH.<br /><br />Actually, Berelain's attitude does change after <i>A Mark</i> although it's difficult to intepret it in terms of her being raped by Shaidar Haran.  Or perhaps it is more accurate to say that her attitude continues along a trend that was set in the beginning of CoT.  Berelain is much less forward with Perrin after <i>A Mark</i> and we learn that Perrin has been more accepting of Berelain's character.  Perrin even mentions that her scent has changed from the &quot;wolf looking at a deer caught in brambles&quot; smell that typified Berelain in WH.  I'm not entirely sure how this would all fit in with the idea of Mesaana as Berelain, but I'm willing to wait for RJ's explanation of the state of affairs between Perrin and Berelain before drawing any firm conclusions.  As for the other things that you mentioned, I hope your willing to read through some of my other thoughts in this incredibly long-winded reply.<br /><br />I don't think your two points, jofraz, entirely refute my reasoning.  That encounter with Berelain occurred after Mat had visited Perrin, and Berelain was apparently on her way to Perrin's apartment.  It's apparent that Berelain had already decided that Perrin was the one she wanted to approach, and I don't see why Mat's greeting would dissuade her from that decision.  To me it looks as though Berelain wants somebody that she can control through her affections.  Mat's attitude towards women is not conducive for that, though, because he just wants to have fun with no strings attached.  In that sense, Berelain must know that her charms would be entirely wasted on Mat.<br /><br />Also, I'd point out that Mesaana <i>was</i> a teacher.  Just like Graendal was once a famous aesthetic (sp?) that completely changed once she went over to the Shadow.  In discussing his Longest Theory, Light in the Night once commented that he liked the idea that Mesaana, a once-mousy and shy typical teacher/librarian type would want to change her persona into a bombshell that men desire.  I like that idea too, and I think it would be entirely consistent for one of the Forsaken.  Berelain also tells Perrin in <i>Flags</i> that he will be only the third person to share her bed.  So, despite her outwardly promiscuous behavior, it seems that Berelain is actually a closet prude.  I think that would be entirely consistent for Mesaana, too.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Diomedes <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-01-17 18:52:24
subject:
<b>Whew!  It's hard to keep up with everybody <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /></b>

body:
You're right Etzel, jofraz did raise a good point, and I hope you'll check out my response in the previous post.  I wanted to add, too, that Berelain doesn't entirely forget about Mat.  She asks after him in her letter to Rand in <i>News Comes to Cairhien</i>, and again when he is leaving Cairhien in <i>Matters of Toh</i>, so isn't entirely uninterested in him.  I think that in the Stone, Berelain was looking for someone she could manipulate using her sexuality.  Mat, unlike Rand or Perrin, would take the relationship too casually, making that strategy futile.  I think Berelain's comment refers to the disassociation Mat maintains with his sweethearts (he's just having fun and it isn't anything serious), and that is the similarity between the two characters.  Berelain likes to toy with the opposite sex, too.<br /><br />Etzel, do you think it's impossible for Mesaana to be interested in Perrin as a man, then?  Does the fact that Berelain <i>is</i> interested entirely exclude the possibility that she could also be arranging events to benefit the Shadow?  In any case Berelain is a woman that is used to manipulating men using charm and sexuality.  Perrin must be the absolute worst type of temptation for a woman like that.  He's obviously affected by her advances, always trying to avoid her and then having outbursts like the one in <i>The Feast of Lights</i>.  Despite the obvious attraction, Perrin stubbornly refuses to yield to it.  The fact that he gives her an avenue for leverage on the Dragon Reborn must just sweeten the deal.  How could a woman like Berelain resist such a tempting morsel?<br /><br />I think <i>A Mark</i> is a pretty interesting chapter, too, Sampson, but I think it's the timing of that scene that is essential.   Why did Shaidar chose that time and place to punish Mesaana?  In my mind, that whole scene seemed to have two purposes; punishing Mesaana, but also marking Alviarin.  If that's the case, that was probably simply the best opportunity for accomplishing those two things, and may not have any bearing on whether or not Mesaana could also be operating outside the White Tower.<br /><br />Actually, Sampson, Berelain couldn't get what she wanted from Perrin before she ever met Faile.  In <i>Customs of Mayene</i>, Berelain is surprised that Perrin won't carry her missive to Rand, and I think that Berelain knows it's Rand, not Faile, that is thwarting her.  I would also point out that the puny non-channeler has been scrubbing Sevanna's back and doing her laundry for the last two books. <br /><br />After reading your synopsis of Berelain's character, Sampson, I don't think we agree on very much there.  I don't think the Aiel want to influence Rand through Berelain.  I think the Aiel want to influence Rand directly, and prevent people like Berelain from influencing him as much as possible.  I'm not sure if Mayene is untouched by the current chaos in world, either.  After all, their ruler was busy running some foreign city and then went gallavanting through the countryside with a married man instead of watching after her people like she should be doing.<br /><br />Hey there, AgingComputer!  It's good to see you on this BB.  I think your point about the condition of t'a'r in Tar Valon is the best one I've seen yet, but haven't that sort of thing isn't too surprising since Mesaana is definitely in the Tower at least part of the time.  My first instinct is to look for other Dream scenes that are set in the Tower, because I know that's a popular destination.  I'll also have to check out the timing of that scene, because there are a few days in LoC when Berelain shuts herself up in her room and won't came out and perhaps they coincide.<br /><br />The entire Forsaken-induced nightmare argument puzzles me to a certain extent.  Is it possible for there to be Forsaken in the area without causing nightmares?  I don't think we've seen any indication that Semirhage is causing nightmares for the people in Ebou Dar or for those of the Seanchan fleet on the journey to Ebou Dar.  Nor do I think there is any evidence that Aran'gar is causing nightmares for the rebels.  It seems to me that the Forsaken can control the ability to some extent, and it may be that Mesaana is exercising that control in Cairhien.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Diomedes <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-01-17 19:06:24
subject: <b>Cities' &quot;Forsaken effect&quot;</b>
body:
To tell you the truth, this whole &quot;Forsaken effect&quot; has puzzled me to no end as well, and I'm working on a theory right now in which I try to tie together the Forsaken, Dreaming, and their effects in T'A'R.


created: 2005-01-17 21:50:48
subject: <b>One further point</b>
body:
Diomedes, I really rate your efforts here and in your responses to all posters. Well done.<br /><br />Regarding Berelain chasing Perrin after he has made his feelings known being contrary to Ji'e'toh, I would agree that would be logical from a Westernised stance or if we knew all the ins and outs of Aiel social mores. However I say that if her pursuit was solely for his affections after he has clearly stated his preference because she was in love with him then this would indeed be abhorrent behaviour.<br /><br />I would propose that she was interested in Perrin just as sack fodder to start with. Then with Faile's childish attempts to scare her away it became a point of honour - Ji. Plus this ongoing and committed feud does fit with the Aiel's sense of cruel rivalry. To iterate, Berelain wants to bed Perrin and capture his affections because her honour demands it, not because she is in love with the guy. This is the terms of of the  Faile vs Berelain contest: one or the other will win by capturing Perrin's heart. Pursuing a path of conduct because of your honour demands it corresponds with the Aiel view on things if they even considered this part of her behaviour.<br /><br />May I also raise something here? IMO Faile is the worse party in the Faile vs Berelain contest - she is the one that insists on using a loved one as a playing piece. It amazes me that so many posters paint Berelain in the role of heartless slut / general &quot;bad person&quot; for her conduct.  Faile only had to confess her reprehensible behaviour to her husband and take whatever chastisement he chose to give. Then he could openly deal with Berelain in the full knowledge of what her behaiviour was about.<br /><br />I'm sorry, didn't mean to rant.


created: 2005-01-18 00:36:59
subject: <b>I don't think so.</b>
body:
Firstly, you haven't yet explained Min's viewing of Berelain falling for this &quot;man in white&quot;, not to my satisfaction anyway. <br />I'm sorry, Berelain is NOT Mesaana in disguise, and I agree with whoever-it-was that suggested Mesaana was some clerk or other in the Tower without a disguise.<br /><br />Of course, there are none so blind as them that won't see. We all interpret the evidence in different ways. Look, if you're so worried about it, email RJ and ask him! If he says RAFO then Berelain IS Mesaana, but like Taimandred - &quot;Berelaana&quot;? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> - he will say NO.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">i have severed all my former allegiances to The Forsaken Who Shall Not Be Named Any More Because She Was Dumb Enough To Get Captured (TFWSNBNAMBSWDETGC).<br /><br />sigh. now i must find a new forsaken to root for.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-01-18 12:11:33
subject:
<b>I wouldn't say that I'm worried about it, first forsaken <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /></b>

body:
Either she is or she isn't, and only time and more books from RJ will really give us an answer.  Your suggestion has merit, though, so perhaps I will submit a question or two to Dragonmount.  As for Min's viewing, I haven't explained it because it hasn't been explained yet.  I can't make any firm conclusions one way or the other about that vision until it comes to fruition.  It's possible that the man in white refers to Perrin in mourning white after Faile is killed (or Perrin believes she is killed), or it could refer to something else entirely - a Whitecloak like Galad or a gai'shain.  Even the term &quot;head over heels&quot; has some interpretive wiggle room in it.  It could mean that she truly falls in love with someone, or it could be the type of infatuation that causes a person to forget all about their other responsibilities.  I've thought that one intriguing possibility could be that Mesaana, after her rough treatment by Shaidar Haran, does fall &quot;head over heels&quot; for Perrin and finds a reason to leave the Shadow behind.  There are certainly plenty of examples of LTT's allies being seduced by the Shadow, and some foreshadowing that the same could happen to some of Rand's allies.  I think it would balance things nicely if there were some examples of people going the other way.  Ingtar would be one, but a Forsaken would really be a powerful symbol if she switched sides to the Light.  &quot;No one can walk so long in the Shadow that they can't return to the Light,&quot; and all that.<br /><br />That would be a good topic for a full theory, AgingComputer.  I thought of another example, too.  Moghedien, when she is held captive in Salidar, doesn't have the nightmare effect.  This can't be attributed to her shielding her dreams, either, because the a'dam prevents her from creating a shield.  Either in <i>A Figurehead</i> or <i>A Pair of Silverpike</i>, Egwene thinks to herself that she should have looked in on Moghedien's dreams while she had the chance, another indication that they weren't shielded.  I'll definitely have to fold some of this into any theory I write about Mesaana in the Tower, because the state of t'a'r in Tar Valon during Elayne and Nynaeve's search in <i>Under the Dust</i> would need an explanation.<br /><br />Thanks, Mickeydee, I'm happy your enjoying the discussion.  I would ask you exactly how you think that Berelain's honor is at stake in her relationship with Perrin?  Is it simply because she expressed an interest in Perrin in TSR that hasn't been reciprocated?  I would point out that just because Berelain thinks or expresses that this contest is a matter of honor for her, I don't think that necessarily means that the Aiel would see it that way.  To me, it seems that Berelain's continual pursuit is more reminiscint of childish pique at being denied what she wants than anything to do with her honor.<br /><br />One interesting aspect about that entire love triangle is that Aiel don't regard polygamy as abnormal.  The way Berelain pursues Perrin, however, goes completely against their customs regarding polygamy.  There are numerous examples that the normal Aiel way is for the women to approach one another first.  Melaine first speaks to Bael's first wife before approaching Bael himself.  Aviendha and Elayne become first-sisters before they bond Rand.  Treating Faile as a rival, rather than as a partner, seems to go entirely against the Aiel customs regarding polygamy.<br /><br />As for the popular interpretation of Faile's character, I think many people see her acting to help Perrin.  She does continually want him to step forward and take a commanding role in situations, but I think that is because she sees in Perrin the traits that would make a good leader/noble/king.  Her subterfuges using Cha Faile seem to be for Perrin's benefit, too.  Protecting him from the Prophets machinations, or insuring that Alliandre comes to the camp to be received by Perrin.  Even while she is captive with the Shaido, she's as worried about Perrin's reaction to the situation as anything: &quot;What finally convinced (Lacile and Arrela) had been the argument that they could carry word to Perrin of where Faile was, along with a warning of how many Shaido there were and a claim that Faile already had her own escape well in hand and any interference by him might endanger that and her.&quot; (CoT, <i>Traps</i>)  All of this seems in stark contrast to Berelain's stated motive: &quot;I will take the blacksmith away from you (Faile) and keep him as a pet for as long as he amuses me.  Ogier's oath on it, farmgirl....Wherever he goes I will find him and make him mine.  You can have him when I am finished.  If he still wants you, of course.&quot; (TSR, <i>Customs of Mayene</i>)  Of course, this was many books ago, and things may have changed for Berelain since then, but as a basis for the character it seems neither honorable nor very good for Perrin.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Diomedes <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-01-18 13:02:19
subject: <b>I can't agree</b>
body:
This theory presents a tantalizing possibility, but for some reasons discussed above already (I don't need to repeat them), I have to disagree.  My take on things is that Berelain (as Rand has described her) is a very capable ruler, willing to do all that is necessary to ensure the continued safety and prosperity of her country.  She's been through a lot, and is the world's expert on establishing rapport with people she doesn't know.<br /><br />I don't completely discount the possibility that Berelain is not who she claims to be, but for now I have to lean more towards Berelain being Berelain.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Who we were is lost to all men, and life is bitter.&quot;<br />&quot;Expect nothing, and you will not be surprised.&quot;  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-01-18 17:19:28
subject: <b>Agree to Disagree</b>
body:
Diomedes, we'll just have to agree to disagree on whether Berelain is acting to satisfisy her own sense of honour or acting like a spiteful, spoilt, arrogant noble (I've got to stop repeating myself).<br /><br />I was considering a response along the lines of &quot;c'mon Berelain is a seriously hot babe with a totally awesome rack and she doesn't mind takin' them puppies for walks which is all good y'know&quot; but I thought no, this is uncompromisingly true and leaves no room at all for discussion or disagreement and where's the fun in that? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Very good point on the Aiel view of polygamy BTW.


created: 2005-01-18 22:52:50
subject: <b>Another fine performance Diomedes</b>
body:
Another fine performance indeed!  And the amount of time and effort you put into your responses to all posters is as usual astounding and admirable.  You're a true gentleman and remain one of the more fun and thought provoking contributors to this site.<br /><br />But you know, you're really confusing the hell outta the kids with these theories - you do realize that don't you <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Everybody's Auntie MJJ-like it or not <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br />Dylanfanatic: My Left-Handed Duckling of Darkness <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />&quot;I know something from books&quot;<br />&quot;Books? But how can you know it from books?&quot;<br />&quot;Oh you're right; I know nothing nothing nothing!&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2005-01-19 09:59:45
subject: <b>No way.</b>
body:
Berelain can't be Mesaana. RJ said so. Actually, he said that Mesaana was someone in the tower that we have already met. Furthermore, when Shaidar Haran unmasks her in front of Alviarin, the former Keeper says that Mesaana is very familiar, even though she doesn't quite recognize her. This is probably because the Forsaken don't have the Agelessness of regular Aes Sedai, so Alviarin didn't recognize a fellow sister. It's all in the WOTFAQ actually. I believe there is something like this in Wotmania's FAQ. Check it out.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">http://www.orkut.com/Profile.aspx?uid=4841668765074332965<br /><br />&quot;It's like God gave you the tools to build a house, and the blueprint is in you. Just remember to use rubber gloves.&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2005-01-19 10:06:32
subject: <b>Disagree</b>
body:
Don't we have a POV from Berelain in the last book?  She is thinking how everyone thinks she is a loose skirt, but in fact has only slept with three men. She did that in order to keep Mayene politically independent.  If I made this up, I apologize.  If I am right, it is hardly the POV of a Forsaken.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">May you be successful  in all your projects.<br /><br />I am a pastafarion.  The Flying Spaghetti Monster created the universe, and no one in Kansas can prove me wrong.<br /><br />http://www.vengaza.org</font><p></p>


created: 2005-01-19 12:47:19
subject:
<b>Thanks, MJJ <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /></b>

body:
You know, I think Theory BBs have always been my favorite part of wotmania.<br /><br />Mickeydee, I've enjoyed our give and take, too.  And having Berelain and her puppies is definitely good for us folk in the stands, I just question her motives for walking them where she chooses to.<br /><br />zehguga, I'm not trying to say that Mesaana is never in the Tower, or don't doesn't don a disguise when she is there, I just don't think she spends even most of her time there.  <br /><br />Actually, bme, there are no POVs from Berelain at all.  She does tell Perrin in <i>Flags</i> in WH that he will be only the third man that has shared her bed.  It's interesting that she becomes this brazen only moments after Perrin refused her &quot;truce&quot;.  Personally, I consider that little example further insight into Berelain's duplicitous nature.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Diomedes <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-01-19 19:28:02
subject:
<b>You know, Diomedes, MJJ is right. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /></b>

body:
Your research and responses are always top-notch.<br /><br />And your posts are never boring, which is why I always participate.<br /><br />Keep up your fine work.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2005-01-20 23:21:26
subject: <b>I see...</b>
body:
Well, I'm not sure she would have time for that many outings to the Tower, seeing as she has to rule Cairhien and Mayene (albeit long-distance). With her travels through Ghealdan, northern Altara and Amadicia and western Murandy, I'd think she would find it hard for her to go to the Tower at all. So this would also debunk the theory that Mesaana is *also* Tarna, once you take into consideration that Tarna has just been made Elaida's Keeper, so she'd have to hang around at the Tower a lot.<br /><br />Of course, if one of Mesaana's alter-egos was in fact Delaana(sp?) the lonely Brown, this theory could be totally credible, furthermore sustained by the BWB, which says that she desired real power, not only the appearance of it.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">http://www.orkut.com/Profile.aspx?uid=4841668765074332965<br /><br />&quot;It's like God gave you the tools to build a house, and the blueprint is in you. Just remember to use rubber gloves.&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2005-01-21 11:15:41
subject: <b>Trust of Aiels</b>
body:
The issues of an wetlander gaining Aiel trust are maybe overestimated due to the extremely dismissable by Aiel standards relation of Cairhienin and Tairen aristocracy to honour and to the common hatred of Aiels against the treeslayers. But we have several examples of astonishly easy way of some wetlanders into Aiel hearths. For Min (even if in Rand's ta'veren presence) it was enough to say a single word to Melaine during their first meeting for to gain a status among Aiel close to WO apprentice (without the limitations of the last). For Egwene a single meeting with Amys in TAR was enough for her to be invited to become apprentice (and that meant also the privileges of an WO apprentice). When Gaul was surprised by formerly unknown to him Elyas, Gaul immediately became surprisingly friendly to Elyas. Bael seems to have more trust to Bashere and Deira than Bashere to Bael and that also seems to hsppen without any collisions or previous mistrust. The three Aes Sedai whom Rand stilled at Dumai Wells and who according to Aiel believes paid by that their toh, turned surprisingly fast from prisoners to persons having the full Aiel trust immediately after swearing loyalty to Rand. So being trusted by Aiel is not so rare occasion as it seems to be. Sense of honour, courage, experience in one's own sphere of activity and respect to the corresponding virtues of the Aiel are in the most examples (with exceptions of cases where Aiels have special presuppositions as against Cairhienins) enough for the Aiel society to have respect to a wettlander. Lack of hostility traditions between Aiels and the nation of the wettlander helps also a lot.<br /><br />Especially interesting in this context is the way Aiel treat those whom they think to be their disciples, and also the way to become an Aiel's disciple. Experienced Aiels like to have willing people under their guidence and like to express motherly (in case of WO) or fatherly (in case of clan chiefs) feelings to them, but, what is more important, they fell responsibility for the persons they have agreed to guide. Most interesting is, that if an Aiel faces somebody who makes mistakes in the Aiels area of competence, and the Aiel decides to correct and guide the other people, that has too often the tendency to develop very quickly into very friendly feelings to the said person. And if this person is not so stupid to dissapoint Aiel's expectations, this soon becomes trust.<br /><br />In Berelain's case she apparently made an unsuccessfull attempt to seduce Rhuarc. From what we know about Rhuarc, that would 1. amuse him (compare with Rhuarc's usual style of speaking about &quot;young ones&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> 2. he gave Berelain a &quot;lesson&quot; involving some humiliation 3. when he saw that his means are effective and that Berelain is not avoiding his reasonable &quot;guidance&quot;, factors 1 and 2 combined would very likely create a sympathy to her. Having Rhuarc's guidance, Berelain would gain a status of trust also from other Aiels (until she eventually makes something abominable, what she didn't).<br /><br />What is needed to gain and retain an Aiel's friendly attention? Manifestation of courage (match for Berelain); Manifestation of ability to respect the reasonable advices and the experience of the Aiels (match for Berelain - lack of such ability would be disastrous for a diplomate for a small neighbour of the full of airs Tear); open enough manner of behavior combined with good self-control, power of will and and ability of resistence - the virtues Aiel like (match for Berelain); lack of cheating or playing the Great Game behind the Aiel (if Berelain is clever enough to see that Great Game things will be not wellcome around Aiel, she would not play it, because even if she can play the Game, it's not exactly in her blood) and lack of making anything else abominable in the eyes of Aiels.<br /><br />Another point is that the art of mayener diplomacy just must be very masterful in causing other people to trust the mayener, or else the said mayener diplomacy together with the mayener country would dissapear in the dusts of history. The traditional Great Game with the lies and betrayals of it would gave no chance for a small force to remain both alive and independent, so the mayener used rather the appearance of the refugees city outside Caihrienin walls in Galdrian's times - grotesquely overplayed openness in appearance making the proud Caihrien not able to phink in DaesDaimar terms about them, but too ... noisy also to be not counted as a practical factor...


created: 2005-01-21 15:37:11
subject: <b>Congratulations - and a few comments</b>
body:
It's a very well-written text and quite interesting - thanks for your time and efforts Diomedes.  As other wrote, it's members like you who make this place so interesting.<br /><br />One disappointement, though.  I've witnessed the emergence of your theory over the last months on the MB and while you've greatly refine and expanded it in the final version there's one major thing that for me is still missing in it : the motives.  <br /><br />Why oh why would Mesaana devote so much time and efforts to play Berelain? Semirhage is forced to play a similar time-consuming role, but it's quite easy to speculate on what she and the Shadow can gain from controlling Tuon and why it's her charge. For Berelain it's not at all clear and it's a major reason why I can't be convinced.<br /><br />&quot;Being close to a ta'veren&quot; doesn't quite cut it for me unless you suggest what his her gain in this. Being close to Rand I could have understand, but she let herself be outmanoeuvered easily. Why Perrin? What is her endgame? What does she expect to gain from staying close to Perrin like this?  If she believes Perrin is dangerous/important, why not simply kill him and flee, why spend months near him instead? Berelain had many opportunities to kill Perrin or worsen matters in his camp.<br /><br />I would also have liked an interpretation of what she is doing in the camp to serve her goals, because if Mesaana were Berelain it's clear her thiefcatchers and Annoura are her agents - and likely Gallene as well - and the maids who are staying pretty close to their mistress.  What is Mesaana actually doing in Perrin's camp day by day to serve herself and the Shadow. What is her relationship to Masema, and does she collaborate with Semirhage and the Seanchan or not?<br /><br />As for the arguments against the theory, others have pretty much already wrote the ones I opposed earlier to your in-progress theory on the MB and that I would still oppose now : wolves can't be fooled about the Shadowspawn and Forsaken, Perrin smells things about Berelain that are not very compatible with feelings Mesaana would have toward him (in CoT especially), being close to a ta'veren is hazardous at best as Rand's sworn Aes Sedai could testify and we've not seen any Forsaken making this choice willingly but for Lanfear - and briefly at that, what about Min's viewings that Berelain will fall head over heels for a man,  .<br /><br />Still, very good work and an interesting read though I don't agree with your conclusions.<br /><br />My interpretation of Berelain is pretty simple :<br /><br />She is a good and efficient ruler who has been taught that her charms can be an asset for her little nation. In the power shuffles and chaos Rand brings to the world and the conquest of Tear, managing to be close to him or his people is an advantage for Mayene and Berelain sees it as her best chance to keep her nation independent and strong. At this point, simply serving &quot;The Light&quot; is not a concept that has fully entered Berelain's head - she's doing the same thing but mostly just for Mayene.<br /><br />She tried to seduce Rand and failed, IMHO she tried the same with Rhuarc (another way of keeping close to Rand) and failed, and she tried the same with Perrin and failed, but because of her game with Faile she keeps trying.  <br /><br />However, Berelain is evolving and her character develops through the story.  She's much closer now to really serving the light. She's an asset to Perrin, and she's becoming a friend and ally.<br /><br />It would help if she could get rid of her highly suspicious advisor...  <br /><br /> <br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /> <br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="images/personalsmilies/30778.gif" />Wheel of Time Reference Library : Articles, maps, charts and misc.<img src="images/personalsmilies/30778.gif" /><br /><br /></font><p><a href="http://13depository.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">The Thirteenth Depository - a Wheel of Time Blog</a></p><p></p>


created: 2005-01-22 10:52:50
subject: <b>I'm late again...</b>
body:
As usual, a well written theory, Diomedes! Weak in a few spots as others pointed out, so I won't elaborate on them. Improbable perhaps, much as my own Mesaana theory, but not necessarily impossible, either, IMO. <br /><br />Hopefully we will learn more in the near future from interviews, or we will have to wait until the books are finished to see if either one of us are anywhere close to correct about our ideas. Don't feel alone that people may see your observations as skewed. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> It takes a little grit to voice your opinion when it differs so much from the norm, and even more to stand up to the criticism. My hat's off to you!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2005-01-22 13:49:00
subject: <b>Huh...</b>
body:
Hmmm.  I agreed on my vote.  But I'm still somewhat torn.  You make some compelling arguments, but somehow I just can't see Berelain as evil.


created: 2005-01-23 14:32:42
subject: <b>I was hoping the two of you would add some thoughts.</b>
body:
Thanks, DomA and LitN!  It's always good to have your input.  I know the two of you put as much thought into the events in this story as anyone, and it's always nice to see what you've got to say.<br /><br />As for motive, DomA, I'll do the best I can to answer you.  It's a little tough for me, because it seems so apparent, but this does seem to be one of the major sticking points for many people.  First of all, it's apparent that Berelain is truly attracted to Perrin, and she did give Faile her word that she would &quot;take the blacksmith away&quot; from her.  And as the glossary in both TSR and TFoH says, Berelain is a woman that &quot;will have what she wants, whatever it takes, and she always keeps her word.&quot;  Many people seem to find this inconsistent with the concept of the Forsakens' characters, but I see no reason that Mesaana couldn't feel this same way.  So, to me, that explains Mesaana's motivation in terms of herself; if Rand refuses to keep Berelain near him for her manipulations, then she might as well spend that time pursuing Perrin.<br /><br />Now, let me try to explain her motivation in terms of how it advances the Shadow's cause as a whole.  After Rand returns to Cairhien, we don't actually see Berelain for quite a while.  Her first entrance is in <i>As the Plow Breaks the Earth</i>:<br /><br />&quot; 'What is the meaning of this, my Lord Dragon?' she demanded, brandishing the letter he had had delivered to her this morning.  She stalked across the floor to shake it under his nose.  'Why am I to return to Mayene?  I have governed well here in your name, and you know it.  I could not stop Colavaere having herself crowned, but at least I stopped her changing the laws you made.  Why am I to be sent away?' &quot;<br /><br />It seems that Rand's original intention was for Berelain to return to Mayene.  As the two of them discuss the knife attack that occurred on the docks when Berelain returned from the Sea Folk ship, Rand reveals that Dobraine has heard rumors that Colavaere's supporters hold Berelain responsible for her downfall and want vengence.  Rand tells Berelain, &quot;But they won't have a chance, because you are going back to Mayene.&quot;  Berelain is actually in a bit of a bind.  Rand is determined to keep her safe and the best that he can see to do that is sending her back to Mayene.  From Mesaana's perspective, it must seem that she needs to come up with an idea pretty quickly or all her work at gaining Rand's confidence will go completely to waste.  She certainly can't do much to effect larger events sitting in Mayene, and the only other option would seem to be abandoning her painstakingly crafted disguise in favor of some other.<br /><br />After this pronouncement, Berelain is quite taken aback, but she presses on, trying to use the Sea Folk as an excuse to remain in Cairhien.  Rand then questions to himself Berelain's motivation for pushing so hard to remain near him in Cairhien.  He decides that it must be her desire to protect Mayene, and then something very interesting happens.<br /><br />&quot; 'Berelain, I don't know what else I can do to guarantee Mayene for you, but I will write out any -'  Colors swirled so strongly in his head that his tongue froze.&quot;<br /><br />Rand seems quite determined that Berelain should be sent away, and I think it's strange that the colors surface at this moment and stop his reasoning.  Then, without any further thought or explanation, Rand changes his mind and tells Berelain that she can still serve him but it means she must be sent away.<br /><br />In my mind, this aligns everything very neatly for Mesaana.  She gets to follow her own hearts desire by spending time with Perrin.  She also gets to continue worming her way into Rand's confidence by following his orders.  She is in a position to disrupt or manipulate Rand's alliance with Alliandre (we learn that approaching Alliandre was Rand's main reason for sending Berelain with Perrin in <i>A Goatpen</i>), as well as whatever plans that Rand has for Masema and the Dragonsworn.  And she in position to manipulate Perrin, one of Rand's most trusted friends and an important player in his own right.  All the while, she maintains her hard-won alter-ego, and will potentially find herself in place to directly manipulate Rand again.<br /><br />I think it is also important to keep in mind one of the things we do know about Mesaana from her own POV and her interactions with Alviarin (and, by implication, the minimal amount that has been revealed about her.)  Mesaana is not like Graendal, Sammael, Be'lal, Rahvin or even Lanfear or Semirhage.  Even in the Tower, she doesn't try to directly control events.  She works through Alviarin.  Mesaana is very intent on keeping herself secret.  She works indirectly and through manipulation.  You're right, DomA, she could kill Perrin at any time, but she won't because she needs him to further her own schemes.  Without Perrin, Berelain is stuck in the same position that she was in ACoS; Rand sends her home to Mayene and she finds herself on the sidelines.  So long as Perrin is alive and Mesaana remains disguised, she has a lever to use on Rand, and an important player that she can manipulate.<br /><br />dragonburned fool, I did want to adress your points, too.  The main thing that I see is that with all of the people that you mentioned, there is something in their characters that the Aiel can immediately relate to.  One of the first things that Egwene tells Amys is that she's hunting the Black Ajah in Tanchico.  Combining that with Amys' surprise that Egwene could escape from her in the T'a'r version of the Waste and remove Amys' clothes, I think that gives Amys a good basis to be intrigued by Egwene.  The respect that Egwene gains has an incredible amount of detailed background.  Egwene dressing as a child for bad behavior, running naked around the tents fifty times for tardiness, helping the Wise Ones understand the Car'a'carn, facing Lanfear at the docks, etc.  Compare that to what we know about the basis of the Wise One's relationship with Berelain - nothing.  We don't ever even see the Wise One's interact with Berelain except for the extraordinary &quot;daughter of the tents&quot; gesture that Amys bestows on Berelain (something that she hasn't ever done for Egwene, despite their long history.)<br /><br />Again, for all the others, there is also something that the Aiel can admire.  With Min it was her ability to see auras, and specifically her viewing of Melaine: &quot;Even Sorilea seemed to accept Melaine's view that Min's ability put her on equal footing of sorts with them...&quot; (LoC, <i>Thorns</i>)  That perception was probably only strengthened by Min running interference with the Salidar embassy and her time at the hands of the Tower embassy.  With Bashere, there is his skill as a general.  Although no Aiel participated in the Altara campaign against the Seanchan, I don't think it's hard to believe that the Aiel received some news about the importance of Bashere's role.  Even with Elyas, Gaul would be forced to respect the man's woodscraft, and his obviously close relationship to Perrin would certainly speak in his favor.<br /><br />Berelain has none of these advantages.  The only thing she did in the beginning was her attempted seductions.  Perhaps Rhuarc would be amused, but that is not the same as having a basis for respect, or seeing the traits of one's daughters in such an action.  Perhaps Rhuarc could admire her governing effectively in Cairhien, but the reality is that the Aiel aren't particularly concerned with the treekillers.  The Aiel, in general, do admire when others take their advice, but Berelain doesn't even seem to do that with any kind of good grace.  Nor does she take such advice consistently.  Allowing the Cairhienin to continue their interpretation of ji'e'toh, for example.  Ultimately, it seems to me that there is a very reasonable basis for the few examples of positive relationships between wetlanders and Aiel.  In the case of Berelain, however, those reasons seem obscure, at best, and that forces me to question whether RJ is hiding something.<br /><br />John, thanks again.  You've always been really supportive of my ideas, even if you don't entirely agree with them.  The funny thing is, I don't see either of our theories regarding Mesaana as improbably.  In fact, I think it's the only way that these things really make sense.  The longer I spend thinking and discussing these ideas, the more I become completely convinced that this is where RJ is heading.  The explanation for so many strange events becomes entirely self-evident in under these circumstances, and the characters themselves seem to gain a good deal of continuity.  I think it really adds a great deal to the story, and sets up an incredible ending.  Frankly, I'm going to be completely astounded if Mesaana isn't revealed as the major player that I've begun to envision.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Diomedes <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-01-28 15:37:48
subject: <b>goooo berelain</b>
body:
i like berelain. maybe only sometimes mesanna pretends to b her or something, becuase some of these points are really convincing, but i like her too much to think shes evil.<br /><br />plus the wise ones like her more than egwene and treat our fake little Aes sedai like a servant half the time.<br /> i think we should respect the opinions of people who do that to eghead. grrrrr i hate her!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Surprising what you can dig out of books if you read long enough, isn't it?&quot; -- Rand Al'Thor<br /><br />&quot;I of course have zero evidence for this, but since when has that stopped any of us?&quot; -- David Wren-Hardin <br /><br />Oh, transatlantic Love!<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-02-02 12:50:20
subject: <b>Mask of Mirrors</b>
body:
Great theory!!<br />Though there seems to be excellent evidence for both sides, I'd have to disagree.<br />Why?<br />Well.. here goes:<br />                  Berelain initially visits Rand (&amp; Rhuarc for that matter) with the intension of seducing them. That would mean that she ..ahem.. meant to share their bed.<br />                   Now, I do not have any references that could be used to compare Mesaana's height and Berelain's, and   of course Mesaana would be able to disguise her face well enough to look like Berelain, but only from a distance.<br />                   Will the mask of mirrors hold convincingly if she were to be kissed by Rand, say. Also, there are no references which state that Mesaana was as well formed as Berelain. Would any disguise woven be convincing if the woman were in bed. Rand (or anyone) would certainly have noticed any discrepency in, say, the shape of Berelain's(Mesaana's) bossom.<br />                   There is also the Lanfear factor. Mesaana ofcoure would keep her exact placement,etc a secret, but the forsaken are not exactly ignorant of Lanfear's mercurial temper are they? Mesaana would surely anticipate Lanfear's anger directed against Berelain if she slept with Rand. Would she risk a going against Lanfear, especially since she has no angreal?


created: 2005-02-03 14:56:57
subject: <b>Thanks for participating fionwe!</b>
body:
Those are all excellent points about the potential problems with Mesaana's disguise.  My thinking is that the Mask of Mirrors (or Illusion, if you prefer) is something of a Talent for Mesaana.  There is a quote somewhere (I can't remember specifics at the moment, unfortunately) that skilled (perhaps RJ's word choice was &quot;subtle&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> use of Illusion can withstand physical contact.  Part of Mesaana's mysteriousness is that there are no good physical descriptions of her.  We know that she's considerably shorter than Semirhage, but then again Semirhage is reknowned for being overly tall.  Alviarin describes Mesaana as essentially middle-aged in CoT but doesn't provide any details.  I can't even remember at the moment if she describes Mesaana's hair color.  In any case, I think it's possible to go from Mesaana ordinary to Berelain bombshell with only some relatively minor changes here and there.<br /><br />The problem with the potential risks of succeeding with Rhuarc, Rand or Perrin is tricky, too.  I have to admit that I might miss changes in certain details in a similar situation if the changes weren't drastic.  If she goes from a D-cup to a B-cup and from silky black hair to stringy brown hair then I don't think it's going to work.  If, on the other hand, those changes are relatively minor, than I think it's possible for the male brain to miss those details in such an amorous situation.<br /><br />Mesaana would certainly be running a huge risk with Lanfear, too, but I think the potential benefits could make it worth it.  I personally agree with Light in the Night's theory that Mesaana was also masquerading as Selene in TGH so I see Berelain as a continuation of her efforts in that book.  One of Mesaana's main goals seems to be getting Rand into a situation where he can be controlled or manipulated, IMO, and I think that she would run the risk of Lanfear to accomplish that.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Diomedes <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-02-04 04:23:57
subject: <b>Mesaana: A Master of Illusion?</b>
body:
Is that true? Isn't Alviarin able to make out Mesaana's real clothes when she KISSES her skirt? Our EXPERT illusionist should then expect quite a few problems if she were to be kissed by one of those she tries to seduce.


created: 2005-02-05 15:49:22
subject: <b>Well, casting an Illusion of no identity isn't exactly subtle.</b>
body:
That's a fairly major change to her appearance that Mesaana performs for Alviarin.  It is certainly understandable that physical contact will cause problems for Mesaana in that scene.  I don't think, however, Mesaana's disguise in <i>An Unwelcome Return</i> is exactly analagous to the entirely different situation as enhancing and only slightly altering her appearance as Berelain.<br /><br />On top of that, let's examine the effective consequences of that little lapse in Mesaana's disguise.  Alviarin, by the beginning of <i>A Mark</i>, is no closer to penetrating Mesaana's disguise than she was after <i>An Unwelcome Return</i>.  The fact that Mesaana even let Alviarin come into physical contact with her is somewhat interesting, too, because she certainly could have prevented that.  Mesaana should understand that such physical contact will disrupt the Illusion she's weaving.  Perhaps she's so confident Alviarin can't penetrate her real disguise that she just doesn't care that Alviarin gets a peek at the hem of her dress.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Diomedes <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2007-02-02 03:18:02
subject: <b>The Threads of the Theory I - You Decide</b>
body:
If I read this right, the main arguments of this theory are:<br /><br />1. Berelain's relationship with Rhuarc and the Aiel Wise Women (their treatment of her like a daughter) is not possible or improbable. There is nothing said of Berelain's character or nothing she did that could explain it. Not unless some form of Compulsion or manipulation is involved.<br /><br />2. Berelain trying to seduce Rand earlier and later Perrin after she fails seducing Rand is an indication that she is planting herself firmly with the TDR. She also followed Rand and did not want to be sent back to Mayene for some reason. This must mean that she wants to plant herself in an important position with TDR or someone close to him  at least is part of her scheme.<br /><br />3. Her reaction to Rand's use saidin on her (persisting to seduce him) is unnatural and could only be the reaction of someone familiar or comfortable with the Power such as one of the Chosen. The difference of Berelain's courage in the face of TDR to the reaction of the frightened Red (Rahvin's pet) when she learned of TDR's presence, proves that her behaviour really is unnatural.<br /><br />4. The only significant things that Berelain did between the fall of the Stone of Tear are repeated attempts at seduction from Rand, Rhuarc, etc. Berelain is also trying to attract a man who is already owned by another (Perrin)which is distasteful to the Aiel . All the more reason that the attitude of Rhuarc and the Wise Ones are puzzling. There is nothing to explain the attitude of the Aiel towards her(e.g.their toleration of her foibles)  except her using a form of manipulation or Compulsion. <br /><br />5. Rands attitude toward her such as appointing her ruler of Cairhen and his change of mind not to send her away is not just unnatural but indicative of manipulation. The premise is that she uses subtle manipulation and the sudden swirl of colours in Rands head during their conversation is an indication she used something like Compulsion on him.<br /><br />6. Sulin's mumbling comment that Rhuarc ought to beat Berelain is an indication that the attitude of Aiel not in power (e.g. Maidens) and those in authority are vastly different. Therefore, whatever it is she is doing, she is only doing it to people with authority. <br /><br />7. Because Faile did not exactly see how Berelain managed to grip her wrist (she did did she not)and throw her in the air as opposed to the fact that she clearly saw Rhuarc twist her arm behind her back, it is not martial arts as Berelain claims. The only plausible explanation is that she used the Power on her.<br /><br />


created: 2007-02-02 03:32:04
subject: <b>The Threads of This Theory Part II - You Decide!</b>
body:
For this theory to be valid, the following had been forwarded by the author as explanations or implied as necessary conditions:<br /><br />1.	Either she had no aura suitable for a Chosen or she is able to mask her aura so that Min didn&#8217;t see anything significant about her, an ability that no one else in the book has shown. So far the only thing Min saw is her falling head over feet with a man in white. <br /><br />2.	Min's view of Perrin that showed the Hawk and the Falcon in his shoulder failed to give a hint that the Hawk is particularly dangerous and may well be one of the Chosen. (It is already accepted that Berelain is the Hawk.)<br /><br />3.	Perrins nose and his senses can be fooled or Berelain/Mesaana is able to manipulate his mind so that he interprets it the way she wants him too.<br /><br />4.	Whatever extraordinary skill (whether it is the Power or ultra-subtle manipulation) she is using to manipulate or compel Rand, the Wise Ones, Rhuarc et. al is something that none of them can and has detected. <br /><br />5.	Berelain/Mesaana managed to pass by Lanfear&#8217;s nose unnoticed. Whatever she aimed to accomplish by seducing/bedding TDR is worth enough to risk Lanfear&#8217;s possible retribution and her neck. She is mighty brave or foolish.<br /><br />6.	Her disguise is so refined/ infallible that it cannot be discovered by other Chosen and even by TDR (or Lews Therin who knows her face too well) if she succeeds in actually bedding him.<br /><br />7.	Rand is not immune to her Compulsion or whatever she is using although he seems immune to Allana who have bonded him as her Warder. Similarly, with all the Wise One&#8217;s wisdom and will, they are susceptible to her as well. <br /><br />8.	She is the only Chosen whose dreams are not warded or shielded. She did this mainly so as not to alert the Wise Ones. Also, there is really nothing extraordinary about a Chosen&#8217;s dream from other women&#8217;s except perhaps that it could make Egwene blush. Either that or she could disguise/control her dreams as well.<br /><br />The following had also been given by the author:<br /><br />The man in white may be Perrin in mourning clothes after the death of Faile which explains Min&#8217;s viewing. <br /><br />Berelain/Mesaana could also possibly be actually falling in love with Perrin that she forgets the duties of a Chosen.<br /><br />Well, I hope that this helps everyone here decide on this matter. I have no real intentions of trying to prove or disprove it here. Just laying what I understood. I hope this helps.<br /><br />


created: 2007-04-18 05:03:22
subject: <b>...</b>
body:
women are Rand&#180;s weakness,even if he thought that berelain would manipulate him,he couldn&#180;t do anything but to sent her to Mayene(with the dragon&#180;s distrust Tear and Cairhien would be too dangerous)and he knew that she wouldn&#180;t go if ordered<br /><br />and the Red sister who fled,after what Rahvin did to her she was probably very afraid and mentally weak,it wasn&#180;t becasuse of orders to evade Rand<br /><br />come on,Berelain=mesaana <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />(good theory,though)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Well, any person that you fear<br />And anything that is severe<br />And any place you won&#180;t go near<br />You see they&#180;re nouns, you see they&#180;re nouns<br /><i>Carai an caldazar, bitch!</i><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-01-18 04:19:33
subject: <b>This is a very interesting idea!</b>
body:
And you draw some very good inferences from it.<br /><br />I would say that since the color brown includes a little bit of red, yellow and blue (and therefore green and white) that this reflects the fact that browns, in their eagerness to seek knowledge, embrace all the Ajahs' goals. Borwns are inclusive, not exclusive like the other Ajahs.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> Linda Sedai <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Proud member of the Embroiderer's Guild of the White Tower<br /><br /><b><font color="red">FAQ admin</font></b> </font>'cos the FAQ is where it's at.<br /><br /><b>Currently working on:</b> my 70th FAQ<p><a href="http://13depository.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">The thirteenth depository : A Wheel of Time blog</a></p><p></p>


created: 2005-01-18 12:55:53
subject: <b>Interesting reading!</b>
body:
Some very good ideas which make sense to me.<br /><br />One point:<br /><br />We see that a Portal Stone has seven steps which match the colors of the seven Ajahs (TGH, ch.13).<br />The Portal Stones were created in the 1st Age, and certainly studied by the Aes Sedai in the AoL. <br />Therefore I wonder if these colors had a special meaning, especially for Aes Sedai, already before the 3rd Age, besides that they are the basic colors in Randland.


created: 2005-01-18 13:48:37
subject: <b>Interesting, but...</b>
body:
I would disagree. We know that Ajahs were founded by seven groups/fractions of Aes Sedai that survived the Breaking. And I think seven colors are much older in origin than just hunting males (&quot;Purge&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> or something like that. The evidence of that - Portal Stones and dream ring.<br /><br />I would say that Ajahs colors came from something different entirely. I beleive they are related to the time WT was founded. I could easily picture that these seven fractions came to the meeting and probably their leaders had these specific colors in their dresses - we know that AS love to vary their clothes and show it off. When they founded WT they must select a leader - first Amyrlin - and the way it was done is simple voting I guess. Voting by the color. I imagine that each fraction supported their leader by dressing to the same color, or wearing the same color shawl, or something like that. Hence the Ajahs colors.


created: 2005-01-18 16:41:45
subject: <b>Umm...Skeeve</b>
body:
That is what a dragon burned fool said. That the colours were chosen at the time of the founding of Aes Sedai prior to the building of the White Tower. The colours were chosen as symbols of each ajah's mission and ideas on what the White Tower's focus should be.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> Linda Sedai <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Proud member of the Embroiderer's Guild of the White Tower<br /><br /><b><font color="red">FAQ admin</font></b> </font>'cos the FAQ is where it's at.<br /><br /><b>Currently working on:</b> my 70th FAQ<p><a href="http://13depository.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">The thirteenth depository : A Wheel of Time blog</a></p><p></p>


created: 2005-01-18 16:49:35
subject: <b>I have the same reservations as Skeeve and Etzel</b>
body:
I believe that with those seven colors appearing on unexplained artifacts that impressed the Aes Sedai, when the time came to align the Tower into ajahs, and they wondered how to identify them, someone said &quot;How about the seven colors?&quot;  Now whether or not they picked those colors based on the gender associations, I don't know, but shouldn't the Healers have wanted to use Spirit's color?<br /><br />And the Blues don't look for the &quot;cause&quot; of things, they associate with &quot;causes&quot;  in other words, ideology.  I would label them as the ones most susceptible to illusion, since they see ideological and worldly goals as the most important, while most other Aes Sedai write that sort of thing off. The idea of the Grays and Browns being nuetral is a load of bull, since they are just as involved in Tower politics as any, and if any group is going to be Nuetral, it would be Whites or Yellows, as they are the smallest Ajahs, and they don't have, and have the smallest intelligence apparatus, respectively.<br />The most well-known traits of the Green and Red Ajahs distract many people from the fact that they are the only two Ajahs whose primary stated purpose is fighting evil and protecting people from the Shadow or its effects (in which case Black and/or White would be a far better choice for either), and all else is secondary.  In addition, those are the only two of the seven colors that are opposites to each other.  White's opposite is Black, Blue's is Orange, Yellow's is Purple, and Gray and Brown are neither primary nor secondary colors, and thus have no real opposites.  It may be that the Green and Red Ajahs chose or were assigned those colors since many perceive them to be natural opposites and they have opposite (or complementary) Warder policies.<br /><br />A final problem I have is your assumption that Fire is the main male power and Air is the primary female power from the title of a book, written by a non-channeler in a time when male channelers are effectively extinct.  So that means that the main character of Book 3 in WoT is Rand al'Thor, and that there is a lot of celestial combustion in Book 5, the Dark One is the main character in Book 6, and a road with dangerous paving figures prominently in Book 8.  Book titles are nothing more than advertising to get you to read it.  The book &quot;Band of Brothers&quot; on which the mini-series is based, has very few male siblings in it, and is very figurative, and a quote from a play that was set 400 years before the events in the book.  Suppose the title of Loial's book is sarcastic?  I've seen books with titles like &quot;The Hero,&quot; that are actually meant to defame the heroic qualities of the subject, and so on.  That is an awfully thin reed to make such assumptions on, especially since Loial's description of the contents seems to deal more with the interactions of male and female channelers, rather than the Powers they channeled.  The Ogier author would have no way of understanding that stuff anyway.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


created: 2005-01-18 17:53:17
subject: <b>Very reasonable conclusions.</b>
body:
I think this idea is very interesting.  Its something no one else has ever commented on and and gives us an opportunity for insight.  <br /><br />To your detractors I have to state that people rarely discuss the symbology of colors because those meanings are typically understood.  If RJ had choose green as the the color of fire we would have all been disturbed  because we always associate red with fire and only yellow or white could even come close in competition for the spot.  Taking that into account, red is also considered a passionate, violent, dangerous color.  The Ajahs didn't have to discuss the symbolism of each color in order to acknowledge that symbolism.  Symbolism is something we understand implicitly.  For example Mat's pink outfit clearly let us the reader and Mat himself know what his position to Tylin was.  If  the outfit had been black or navy blue would we have percieved it the way we did?  Short answer, NO.<br />This theory does not require the AS to explore the symbolism to the same degree as the author it simply states that the AS used this symbolism because they would have identified with their ideals.  Though only a few, all the objections seem to miss this detail.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where did these Skimmers come from?  I mean if they didn't want to read the book they could have just Traveled to another author.  Why risk arriving at the wrong destination?  Why risk falling into darkness?</font><p></p>


created: 2005-01-18 20:58:31
subject: <b>Yes, yes, and YES!</b>
body:
I can't find any counter-arguement, except that maybe those seven colours were special even before the Third Age - but yes, they WOULD have declared Yellow and Red first. I agree with the whole kaboodle. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />So is it just a co-incidence that Nyneave uses the five powers to Heal at this time? Is it because she's the only wilder with the talent to Heal at this point? -&gt; You could also have put in stuff about how she didn't use Air or Water to Heal Siuan/Leane, so that's why it didn't work. That would have followed logically. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">i have severed all my former allegiances to The Forsaken Who Shall Not Be Named Any More Because She Was Dumb Enough To Get Captured (TFWSNBNAMBSWDETGC).<br /><br />sigh. now i must find a new forsaken to root for.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-01-19 06:11:35
subject: <b>Yes,</b>
body:
The symbolism of the colours might be age old, but as teh tehory states, tehy do not conflict with the purpose of the Ajah, but rather confirm it. Good work!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">The only way to convince me is by providing some evidence!</font><p></p>


created: 2005-01-19 09:49:45
subject: <b>Responses</b>
body:
It was great pleasure for me to see all the replies to this humble theory. Thank you all.<br /><br />to Etzel<br />The connection between Ajah colors and the colors at the Portal Stones has some problems for me. As Loial tells to Rand in tGH ch.13, the Mirror Worlds were explored only by some of the most powerfull of the few AoLer Aes Sedai who focussed their interest on Travelling between places (i.e. it was a relatively close circle of researchers). The quotes from old books Loial gives as examples, and that supposedly are derived from late Aoler manuscript are written in a somewhat enigmatic for a causal observer style and have too much of a neutral agaist the world's events purely philosophical ramblings in it (...what will happen if a woman choses one way instead of another... and similar stuff). This doesn't sound like something usable for a political organization (that the White Tower with it's Ajahs is) to identify itself with as it's main symbolic. For me it looks like political factions designating themselves by terms borrowed from the quantum theory. Another problem is that in the Age of Legends it was unknown who (or what) created the portal Stones and how. If the seven colors were built together with the creation of the Stones themselves, then the AoLer AS couldn't know the meaning of these colors (so they couldn't have a Very Important Thery Borrowed from th Ancient, that to make the colors of the Stones a well-accepted doctrine). If the colored amphitheatral thing was added later in AoL to already existing, then the AS had to bring their own symbolic in it, a symbolic that may be not derived from the study of Portal Stones (There is no noticeable meaning of Colors in the usage of the Stones we know), but for different reasons (e.g. a logo of Collam Daan, or rhetorics of harmony of the all things, or just a decoration). It is also an open option that these colors where added in the Third Age by the White Tower in order to claim Tower's possession over these objects of Power, and so they would be after the already existing seven Ajahs. The fact that the first time we see these colors at the Stones (in tGH ch.13) Rand's impulsive reaction was the connection witht he seven ajahs, is for me most likely Jordan's hint, that such connection doesn't exist. Because in this case Rand's reaction couldn't be based on any kind of knoweledge (even Lews Therin's memories couldn't help here, because LTT couldn't know anything about the &quot;seven Ajahs&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> and is for him to express in a more acceptible form his horrifying suspect that the situation has to do with somebody's channeling...<br /><br />to Skeeve,<br />I don't see how Your cosiderations are contradicting my theory. If factions willingly choose a color of their vestments with the intention to differ from another faction, they usualy pick up a color that would match their position and that wouldn't be used as base for unpleasant puns by their opponents. So such choice of different color would imply the already established symbolic of colors in general. And even if the leaders of the new-found Ajahs were by mere accident just wearing only dresses of seven different colors, even so the obvious-to-everybody symbolic will still exist, and will sooner or later been assotiated with the colors of factions. However I have some reserves against the idea that the founders of the Tower will choose this kind of voting, and also that what happened in that moment could be called &quot;voting&quot; at all. Voting by wearing a sertainn color is likely for persons who have the habit to live in luxury, what was definitely not the case in the time when the Tower was founded. It was a time of significant poverty in the whole world for 200-300 years and such times don't encourage thinking about so thriftless methods of voting.<br /><br />And my statement was that the seven colors have meaning as old as conscious channeling is, but in the moment of creation of the Tower these meanings were applied to the specific situation of the moment, and after the Tower begun to exist, these early specifications became a tradition.<br /><br />to Onarishma<br />Thank You for Your support, and especially for the stressing that symbolism is something people understand implicitly. My argumentation is actually based on the consideration that every channeler will implicitely assotiate the colors Red, Green, Yellow, Blue and White with the corresponding flows of the One Power. Also it is provable that there was a very strong tradition to divide these flows in male and female - a tradition so strong that it survived 3000 years (and some knowledge-hostile disasters also) without male channeling; and a strong tradition usually means implicite assotiations by everybody having something common with it.


created: 2005-01-19 10:01:50
subject: <b>to Cannoli</b>
body:
Cannoli: &quot;I believe that with those seven colors appearing on unexplained artifacts that impressed the Aes Sedai, when the time came to align the Tower into ajahs, and they wondered how to identify them, someone said &quot;How about the seven colors?&quot;<br /><br />If the seven Ajahs were created and divided by decret, such neutral designations of colors could work. The protocols of the first days of the Tower (as seen in the Guide) show us first a douzen of Sitters, &quot;each for her Ajah&quot;, after that thre are 50 years of struggles in that some of these Sitters were stilled together with their supporters, after that the remaining women from the first protocol appear in another protocol as closest council to the Amyrlin Seat (in the first protocol this woman was still not an Amyrlin) without any mentioning of Ajahs. That leads to the assumption that the first Amyrlin rather wanted to end with the standalone existence of the particular Ajahs and to merge all the AS in one monolite organization, and the seven Ajah survived rather against the will of the first Amyrlin. The seven Ajahs system happened through a ruthless struggle when all the weaker ajahs dissapeared, so the idea about the consensual distribution of symbols from a common pool seems too unlikely for me.<br /><br />Cannoli: &quot;shouldn't the Healers have wanted to use Spirit's color?&quot;<br /><br />No, they shouldn't. Healing has nothing to do with any mysticism, &quot;spirit rules the matter&quot; philosophy or any &quot;spiritual&quot; techniques, that could cause an assotiation between Healing and Spirit. Healing is a technique of weaving like other techniques of OP weaving. The Restorers from the Age of Legends are not known for something spiritual. Graendal before her change was known as &quot;spiritual&quot; one but she wasn't a Healer and worked only with mental diseases, that were the only diseases the Healing of that time was unable to cope with. (It's significant that Healing has no power exactly over mental problems - is thiat something to be assotiated wit &quot;Spirit&quot;?). The <br /><br />yellow sisters from our days show no tendency to speak about &quot;Spirit&quot; or related stuff. Knowing thre mentality of the Yellow Ajah, they would see in babbling about spiritual things rather a non-professional approach. The Yellows claim to be the only really pragmatic Ajah and they have no respect to any philosophy or ideals. Too far from what would be an assotiation with &quot;Spirit&quot;.<br /><br />And I'm not stating that there was dedicated group of Healers in difference tro other Ajahs, who picked up the color of Air. I'm stating that the group that chose the color of Air as a consequence of their choice became later a faction of designated Healers. In the momend of the choosing the Yellow color the ajah was the ajah of those whose first care was that the world will accept the AS with good, and in the circumstances this task required stress on Healing.<br /><br />Cannoli: &quot;And the Blues don't look for the &quot;cause&quot; of things, they associate with &quot;causes&quot; in other words, ideology. I would label them as the ones most susceptible to illusion, since they see ideological and worldly goals as the most important, while most other Aes Sedai write that sort of thing off.&quot;<br /><br />&quot;Looking for the real causes&quot; is how the Blue Ajah describes it's own dedication. Apparently under &quot;true causes&quot; here are understood not physical processes, but true causes of social and psychological events. No matter if the Blue really are seeking for true causes or not, the Blue claim so and think so. Because most important factor for the self-identity of a group is what theis group claims to be (no matter if this claim is right or not). The most indoctrinated ideologies can very well and very insisting and self-persuaded claim to be objective, open-minded and just seeker for scientifically proven truth - marxism is excellent example for such ideology. Also dedication to see the truth behind illusions can easily make you succeptible to illusion, as many historical examples could prove. However the Blue Ajah is really very interested to see the truth behind illusion (in the sphere of social events only of course), because for the Blue Ajah it's mission critical to find and use the hidden mechanisms for controlling the events, and the Blue Ajah doesn't care (less than any other Ajah) how the results are looking in the eyes of the world. It's an Ajah that makes it own illusions and seeks for the truthbehind the illusions others created to hide their actions, it's an Ajah who's very battlefields are the illusions.<br /><br />Cannoli: &quot;The idea of the Grays and Browns being nuetral is a load of bull, since they are just as involved in Tower politics as any, and if any group is going to be Nuetral, it would be Whites or Yellows, as they are the <br /><br />smallest Ajahs, and they don't have, and have the smallest intelligence apparatus, respectively.&quot;<br /><br />C'mon, when you see a political faction declaring itself as being &quot;neutral&quot;, or &quot;independent&quot;, or &quot;centrist&quot; (what different politicals groups often do), does it mean that this faction is intending to stay away of politics? <br /><br />Usually when a group identifies itself so, it has in mind concurrent political groups, whose pragmatic and free from ideology alternative they claim to be. Usually naming itself &quot;neutral&quot; a group actually claims to perform the balance between other groups, to have some arbitrary role. Often that implies even more messing in political affairs than radical self-identification, but the ballancing group can be with full right be called &quot;neutral&quot; as compared with the radical wings. When speaking about the Grey I meant exactly this sense of &quot;neutral&quot;. <br /><br />Cannoli: &quot;The most well-known traits of the Green and Red Ajahs distract many people from the fact that they are the only two Ajahs whose primary stated purpose is fighting evil and protecting people from the Shadow or its effects (in which case Black and/or White would be a far better choice for either), and all else is secondary.&quot;<br /><br />The fight against the Shadow is officially a purpose of all Ajahs, of the whole Tower. No matter how exactly the priorities of every Ajah mathces in this stuff - but officially they all claim that exactly their mission is the best for the Light. And decisive for symbolics are not justifications and results but claims. No Ajah would dare to confess that fighting against the Shadow is unsignificant, so no Ajah would declare itself as being opposite to the idea of fighting the Shadow. They could declare the difference between the Ajahs only concerning more suitable topics, i.e. what has to be done immediately by the Tower as political structure in a non-darkfriend world. And the symbolic of Light vs Shadow is used in the Flame of Tar Valon and the White Tower, i.e. it is already used for another purpose, so if an Ajah will pick up as Ajah designation the anti-Shadow symbolic, it would be read by others that this Ajah has the ambitions to be the only &quot;true&quot; Ajah in the Tower (btw the Reds are not far from that).<br /><br />Cannoli: &quot;In addition, those are the only two of the seven colors that are opposites to each other. White's opposite is Black, Blue's is Orange, Yellow's is Purple, and Gray and Brown are neither primary nor secondary colors, and thus have no real opposites.&quot;<br /><br />I disagree. Opposite of Blue is not Orange but Red, and opposite of Yellow is not Purple but Green; Gray and Brown are primary colors, while Orange and Purple are not. Why I'm stating that so brusk? For one very simple reason - Jordan said so (and in the theory, anticipating objections like that, I gave the quote). If You disagree, Your disagreement is a disagreement with Jordan, not with me. For WoT inhabitants the primary colors are these seven colors and Black, all other colors are secondary.<br /><br />Cannoli: &quot;A final problem I have is your assumption that Fire is the main male power and Air is the primary female power from the title of a book, written by a non-channeler in a time when male channelers are effectively extinct.&quot;<br /><br />I agree that this particular statement is depending too much on a hint. But the situation is not so loose as if it would be just any book. From the context this book is mentioned lot about the character of this book can be safely concluded. Loial quotes this book as a first-rate academic authority about the question about differencies between male and female channelers. So it is apparently a book from a serious scholar. From what we know about Ogier scholars, they have high criteria about their writing, they like very much to quote exact sources and to make carefull surveys, and they have the opportunity to write for another scholars, not just for sale for everybody. <br /><br />It's true that book titles are usually advertisements of the books, but scholar's books have to advertise not scandalousness of their contents, but it's seriousness and scientifical reliability, and that means that unprecise titles are unadvantegeous. From my experience with academic books I'd say that almost in all cases titles are good representations of book's statements. An exception here are, as You mentioned, polemic books, but I don't think Loial will dare to quote a debatable or unsure information about channeling in a presence of an Aes Sedai. The context of the quoting of this book and Loial's scholastic nature make it very improbable that he will use something else than commonly accepted (by the Ogier academic society) knowledge based on reliable evidence. The early time of the quoted book means that it was still time when it was possible to find texts written by AoLer Aes Sedai, whom the Ogier author of the mentioned book could use as her immediate textual source.<br /><br />A possible reason for Fire to be considered male element before Earth and Air as female before Water, is maybe that Air and Fire are more easily and frequently used than Earth and Water. Among AS only few have Talent to work with Earth, while never any Talents required for Fire are mentioned. Asha'man often use Air, but they seem to have less familiarity with Water weaves. Even women seem to use Water not so ofter as Air, and men use Earth not so ofter as Fire. That could easily create the tacite ranking of Air and Fire before Water and Earth. <br /><br />However the second place for Earth and Water is not a primary statement of my theory.<br /><br />


created: 2005-01-19 12:13:28
subject: <b>*applauds*</b>
body:
<br />well fought out.<br /><br />linda: &quot;Browns are inclusive, not exclusive like the other Ajahs&quot;<br />you mean like the hufflepuffs in harry potter? I'm sorry I couldn't resist. lol.<br /><br />Skeeve, it's a good idea in theory, the choosing from colors in dresses but it's a bit farfetched don't you think that the leaders would all be happen to be wearing such distinguishingly different colors at the time?<br /><br /><br />Onarishma, you make a good point.<br /><br />Probably the biggest hole in your theory is the one brought up by Etzel. Isn't it believed that the Portal stones were there long before the breaking? I don't see any reason to conclude the steps were made at some later point. Therefore, the seven colors were already being used for something when the breaking occured. If you can find some way to bring in that fact and explain it as well in your theory, I'd be happy.<br /><br />again, good work here.<br />


created: 2005-01-19 19:03:41
subject: <b>About Portal Stones and colors.</b>
body:
they do not matter or effect this theory.  Even if the ajahs chose their pallet from these colors there is no reason to believe that they did not have independent symbolic meanings attached, Especially when five out of the seven colors are OP colors.  Especially when the portal stones are activated by the OP and therefore probably refer to the OP colors.  Secondly even if you were to take them out of context you would still expect RJ to have standard connotations attached to certain colors  like the pink metioned in my previous  post.<br /><br />The authors reasoning can be tested.  For example if you believe in the spirit then you inherently believe that your &quot;life&quot; is essentially the same regardless of if you are living or dead.  So while you might need spirit to help in healing it would not be the best representative of Healing which is about maintaining your spirit in the particular living state.  That leaves Air and Water, Earth and Fire.  Earth can be eliminated because it is related to something inert, something contrary to the changes that need to occur in order for Healing to take place.  Fire can be eliminated because it is less controllable and, opposite to Earth, it is not stable at all.  In relation to this theory they can also be eliminated because they are related to the male not only because men are stronger in these powers but because these are the powers particularly used to break the world. <br /><br />So that leaves Air and Water which are so essential to Healing.  Neither of which natural subastance you can live without  but one you can live without for a significatly longer period.  Air is the most applicable power to be asscoiated  with Healing because you can not live without breathing.  Yellow is the color of Air.  Yellow is the color of the Ajah of Healing.<br /><br />In regard to our own associations yellow is the color of our sun the source for all of our life on earth.  If our sun was blue our color connnotations would be different.  If our blood was green we would associate green with vitality and violence.  If our sky was red we would asscoiate it with long reaching concepts and goals like we do blue.<br /><br />All of the authors extrapolations could be explored like I did above, or like below. <br /><br />Red = Fire = men = need to be controlled = dangerous<br />Yellow = Air = women = need for survival = essential<br />Green = Earth = men = burden = vigilant<br />Blue = Water = women = cleansing = supportive = versatile<br />White = Spirit = neutral = orderly = logical<br />Grey = White + Colors = neutral + worldy = compromise = intigration<br />Brown = Colors = balance = preservation<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where did these Skimmers come from?  I mean if they didn't want to read the book they could have just Traveled to another author.  Why risk arriving at the wrong destination?  Why risk falling into darkness?</font><p></p>


created: 2005-01-19 19:17:03
subject: <b>Thumb up for an original Theory</b>
body:
I enjoyed reading it.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2005-01-20 01:15:45
subject: <b>You are probably wrong but</b>
body:
You are probably wrong (because the colors are on the Portal stones and RJ may have not thought about it that much) but this is one of the best theories I have read in a long time. Very well reasoned and, if not true, it sure make a lot sense.


created: 2005-01-21 04:29:16
subject: <b>My problem with the &quot;Red&quot;</b>
body:
Over all it is a fairly sound theory.  However,in tGH it is mentioned that the Red Ajah was not originally formed to cut male channelers from the one source, Rather to study the taint on saidin and any effect on sadain it may have.  Only when they couldnt &quot;heal&quot; the taint did they start gentling male channelers.


created: 2005-01-21 12:26:10
subject: <b>Portal Stones</b>
body:
I don't think that the seven colors of the steps around the Portal Stones and their supposed connection to the choice of colors of the Ajahs in the time of founding of the Tower, could be non-compatible with my theory, because Stones or no Stones, the OP-related symbolism of the colors still is there and would be more &quot;natural&quot; assotiation for any channeler than the sophisticated usage of colors on a particular artefact. Even if ajahs used some (btw still unexplained) Portal Stone symbolism, the founder of the Ajahs would still take in count the evident OP symbolism. Here I have to thank to Onarishma for some more good points in that context. But since it is repeteadly said here, that the Portal Stones colors are the most convincing evidence about Ajah colors and the main problem for my theory, and since nobody until now expressed any reserves to the supposed importance of the Stones colors for the early White Tower, I'd like to analyse more detailed the possible significance of these colors for the early Tower.<br /><br />My own belief is that the Stone Colors have nothing to do with Ajah colors, that they are very unlikely to be able to influence the choice of Ajah colors, that it is very unlikely that even the AoLer Aes Sedai thought about the seven colors as the &quot;colors from the Portal Stones&quot;, and that it is doubtfull that the Portal Stones had any importance for the Aes Sedai after the Breaking.<br /><br />According to what Jordan said in interview answer, for the world of WoT the basic colors are exactly these seven colors plus black. Because black is too special color in WoT symbolics, the seven basic colors left are to be known as the &quot;all basic colors&quot;. So the combination of them is more similar to what in our world would be tought about the seven colors of the rainbow than to what would be taught about any sacral set of colors from any ancient origin. If the pyramids of Egypt were known with rainbow color signs, I suggest that we would rather say that &quot;the colors or the rainbow are on the pyramids&quot; than that &quot;the rainbow has the colors of the pyramids&quot;. The combinations of the all colors has the intuitive symbolical meaning of plenty, harmony, unification of all in one balanced system. The stole of Amyrlin Seats uses exactly this meaning of the seven colors combined, so this meaning is valid for the mentality of the White Tower. From BWB we know that in AoL they liked the many bright colors and that their cities were very rich of colors, so there are lot of possibilities that in AoL they used the seven colors in lot of cases, and that after the Breaking when the poverty caused lack of colors in the surviving communities, the memory about the &quot;all colors together&quot; would be too natural symbol for the civilisation lost at all for a need to exist for to seek for more symbolism. Isn't the civilisation of the Old a better and more understandable symbol than certain enigmatic artifact with uncleared purpose?<br /><br />However &quot;all colors together&quot; would not give reason to appoint each color with it's own meaning, so the colors of the particualr ajahs need another explanation.<br /><br />In the Age of Legends the Portal Stones were pre-existing and the Aes Sedai knew nothing about their creation. There are two possibilities about the steps around the Stones:<br />1. they are created together with the Stones. In this case the people from AoL couldn't know what the meaning of these colors could be. If factions would chose from these colors to designate themselves, they will have no reasons to choose exactly this color and not another, so it will be not convenient for picking up colors from it. In the contrary, if they liked so much the Portal Stone symbolism, the ajahs would not divide the Stone colors, because so they would lose their connection to the stone. A later poetry could maybe spoke about how Ajahs decided to designate themselves in a manner that the specific of every Ajah could be valid only if the all seven Ajahs stay together, but such option is completely unlikely to work for founder of Ajahs who strive for their independence against Amyrlin's attempts to forge them into one monolite organization. It is unlikely for persons who name themselves to be different from others to have such unification poetry in mind. It is just unrealistic.<br /><br />Also in this case it is not necessary that the Aes Sedai find any significance in the colors of the steps and do not take them for just an usual decoration. <br /><br />2nd possibility. The steps are added later. In that case the AS would know what the colors mean. But these colors could mean something symbolic but they alos could mean nothing. They could be just decoration. If they mean something, that could be something not related to the Stones specifically, but e.g. to the Collam Daan as such, or to Aes Sedai community (e.g. &quot;all&quot; colors for the Servants of &quot;All&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> who were the only users of these Stones. In this case the meaning of these colors will be derived from something unrelated to the stones and very possibly connected somehow to the OP as the thing that makes the Aes Sedai special.<br /><br />And I cannot find any indication that the seven colors could be derived from the study on the Stones in particular, because until now we haven's seen anything seven-colors related in the usage of the stones, nor any hint about such usage.<br /><br />If Portal Stones were so important for the early Aes Sedai of the third Age, so it would be very strange that the current Tower is so indefferent about the fate of these Stones. If the Ajahs chose their colors after the Stones, so they will praise these Stones high and they will claim them to be &quot;Aes Sedai Places&quot; and symbol of the Tower's dignity. That means that they would not them be in so pityfull state we find them now. The Aes Sedai would try to keep them in good order as symbols of their Ajahs. The Tower however shows nothing like that. The Tower shows rather apathy about the Portal Stones (except maybe some Brown sister who can be interested in any possible object of knowledge no matter is it a Portal Stone or a beetle). That seems to contradict to the supposed importance of the portal Stones for the Ajahs.<br /><br />Significant is also that the book that Lanfear mentions about the portal Stones is according to Loial lost, and Verin also seems not to be informed, nor any Aes Sedai with knowkledge about Portal Stones is known. The Ways that are created using principles of Portal Stones study are also something that no AS knows now. Nor there is hint that any Aes Sedai could know about the &quot;numbers of chaos&quot; (that are essential for usiong the Stones) something more than the name (because Verin when mentioning these &quot;numbers of chaos&quot; mentiones is as something that she doesn't understand and that's knowledge is lost. Too much indifference to the eventual symbol of the Ajahs.


created: 2005-01-21 16:24:50
subject: <b>Brown</b>
body:
Brown is a very scholarly color.  Brown is the color of leather-bound books, the color of parchment, and the color monk's robes.  It also conveys that the wearer probably puts more thought into what she is studying than what she has chosen to wear.<br />


created: 2005-01-21 18:01:01
subject: <b>White the colour of all</b>
body:
This is something I can&#8217;t believe that no one has mentioned that WHITE is made up of all colours of the spectrum of light. Remember in high school physics light is separated by using a prism (popular reference: Pink Floyd album cover for Dark side of the Moon).  IMO this would be an ideal colour for the amril seat and not an ajha colour. Yes I know the amril is of all the ajhas as symbolised by the stole. But the colour white when thinking in the terms of colour as defining a purpose could be seen as the main purpose/mission of a group (The tower). Whilst each individual ajha contributes to that objective in their own fashion, but with out each contribution the mission would fail. As each colour in the spectrum is apart of white light because without it a colour all you would see is the absent colour. Something is red because it absorbs all of the red from the light shines on it hence its appearance. <br />It just seams that the White ajha could be seen as slightly arrogant because of their choice of colour; &#8220;We&#8217;re the true ajha, we&#8217;re the white ajha of the white tower here is our plan etc etc&#8221;. I don&#8217;t know if this is goanna get flamed but I&#8217;d just like to point it out.<br />


created: 2005-01-22 07:13:03
subject: <b>To adragonburnedfool</b>
body:
The opposites of colors is NOT a matter of opinion.  Red, Blue and Yellow are the primary colors, adn Purple, Orange and Green are the seconday colors.  Green is made of Blue and Yellow, and thus its opposite is Red.  The same goes for all the primary and secondary colors - a color's opposite is the color made without it, or the color not used in its making.  This is not opinion, anymore than blakc and white being the presence and absence of all colors.  This is how colors work.  It is not a coincidence that Red and Green are used to denote danger and safety in our culture, and they mean stop and go on traffic signals.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


created: 2005-01-24 16:54:17
subject: <b>Cannoli</b>
body:
No one is disputing the real colors of light and pigment but as RJ has structured this Age after a time in our own world you have to understand that their was a time when the only recognized colors were the ones easily made.  Even in our own time the smallest set of crayons a four box will contain red yellow green and blue and the next one up an eight color box is going to contain those four then black, white, brown and strangely pink or grey.  Its only when you get into larger boxes that you see orange or purple.<br /><br />Also anthropologically speaking color identifications evolve in a pretty specific order.  Black and White or dark and light are always the first two.  then there is red and after that there are pairs of colors which unfortunately I can't remember right now.  Though I do remember enough to know that orange and purple are not in the first four groups which means that the first seven colors humans identify do not include orange or purple.  This is most likely because humans identified colors as those colors aquired a meaning.  So that symbology is probably the reason for recognizing colors in the first place.  That being said a color set based on that symbology is going to be balanced per the symbology not the light or pigment qualifications.  Combine that basic notion with the idea of the AS choosing colors for their symbolic nature and you have to figure what they associate with those colors.  Five of the eight basic &quot;symbolic&quot; colors are also OP colors, which for people from an Age defined by the OP would mean a great deal.  If you consider that the other three colors are mere extrapolations of the the first five then you can say that all eight reference the OP.  If all eight colors can be traced to the OP then all eight colors can derive their meanings from the OP.  Red and green as male colors become opposites to yellow and blue.  White, gray and brown as mixtures, become neutral.  In this theory those things associated with males and what they did are labeled red and green.  Those things associted with female as remedy are labeled yellow and blue.  Notice the ephemeral things also represent immediate action while the more substancial represent long term goals.  Notice that the ephemeral things are also warm colors and so are more &quot;excited&quot; colors while the others are cool, representing slow and methodical ideologies.  I think a dragonburned fool grasps that there are a plethora of connotations attached to any color and that in this situation those connotations are likely to be related to any goals that an international organization would want to pursue.  The purpose of the WT was and is very clear and the dual concerns of men channeling and rebuilding the world can not be challenged.  Since the colors of the Ajahs do relate to these concerns via the OP connotations I don't see why there is any argument.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where did these Skimmers come from?  I mean if they didn't want to read the book they could have just Traveled to another author.  Why risk arriving at the wrong destination?  Why risk falling into darkness?</font><p></p>


created: 2005-01-31 08:58:26
subject: <b>more responses</b>
body:
to alRei Mandragoran:<br />I don't remember that about the Red Ajah, but it could be. I don't know when exactly the Aes Sedai decided that the attempts to &quot;heal&quot; the taint-effects are hopeless, I thought it must be during the Breaking itself. But even if the early Red Ajah was originally concerned to be devoted to &quot;heal&quot; the taint effects, the &quot;male&quot; meaning of the Red color would mean the same as I proposed - a first-rate danger to be coped with (only that the methods would be more humane).<br />However, can You point more exactly that quote? It will give much to understanding the early history of the White Tower.<br /><br /><br />to Podge:<br />White is not so much color of All as it would be for us. Furst because White is one of the five peer colors of the elemental flows of One Power. Second, because White=All is a conclusion of considering the basic colors being the colors of the rainbow (because white is combination of all colors only in optics, not in e.g. arts), what is not the case with the seven colors of the ajahs. White is color of all ajahs only in the sense that White as opposite to Black is the color of the Light, and all ajahs declare to be the champions of Light (so the WHITE flame as symbol of the whole tower, also the Tower being the White Tower).<br /><br />to Cannoli<br />The opposites of colors are not matter of opinion, but there are different sets of objective color opposites depending of the aspect of reality considered. Arts use as basic colors Red, Blue and Yellow and it's not matter of opinion because all paints derive from these three colors. In video technology the set of basic colors is different - it's Red, Blue and Green and it is also not matter of opinion, because video technologies work with this colors, not others. The receptive abilities of human eyes determine another set of color opposites (Blue-Yellow, Green-Purple etc.) not dependent of which mixtures a color is used to be made, but how the human eye deals with contrast. Matter of opinion is which of these objective aspects will be concerned as the most important. The importance between these aspects is something that a culture determines, because it's culture's job to regulate the human priorities between different aspects of reality. Onarishma made a good point about the antropological roots of exactly these set of colors. In almost all languages there are very ancient pre-historical originated words for the colors of the Ajahs, while colors like Purple and Orange were named in historical times and it can be easily seen that these words mean &quot;colored like this thing&quot;, that makes Purple and Orange being recognized as separate colors much much later than our seven.


created: 2006-06-25 22:04:26
subject: <b>Overall agree...</b>
body:
I have two bones to pick though. Cannoli mentioned that the yellow/white are the two smallest ajahs. There is no indication of the two smallest ajahs, except in NS. In NS it says quite clearly that the smallest is white and blue is the second smallest. The other bone to pick is with the author. Overall I agree but those constant statements of &quot;evil men&quot; and men causing the breaking, while admittedly is propoganda, the breaking IMO was truly the cause of all Aes Sedai in general. Aes Sedai drilled the bore thus setting up the potential of the breaking. To make matters worse other Aes Sedai swore to the shadow. And last, but not least, the good Aes Sedai could not agree on a plan, split along gender lines. Not to mention bot Latra's and LTT's plans were horrid... one would have failed because I doubt the CK could contain the DO and the other would have tainted both saidin and saidar if done properly and done improperly tainted only saidin. So in reality the giving of blame to AS is not stupid in the sense of its not their fault, but stupid in the sense that there are more importaint things to do.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Egwene must die.<br />Rand Al'Thor will face her wrath...<br />And laugh in her face!</font><p></p>


created: 2005-01-21 09:59:40
subject: <b>Oeh..</b>
body:
Very long but very nice, i just wish i saw that summary before i read the whole thing...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">.~*Steeffie*~.<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-01-21 12:26:58
subject: <b>Nicely done</b>
body:
I largely agree with you about the strength of channelers being directly related to the precision with which they weave.  However, at times I get the sense that you regard precision as more or less of a thing that is present in a weave or not.  It seems like precision should be more of a continuum.  <br /><br />I don't know if precision accounts for the increased effectiveness of circles all by itself.  There is no reason why linking has to increase precision.  However, it could be that the multiple connections to the OP increase the stability of the channelers in the circle.  This could give the leader of the circle greater control over the manipulation of the flows.<br /><br />Also (not sure where to fit this in), the greater strength a channeler has, the more likely (IMHO) it is that he/she can control minute flows precisely.  <br />I still need to think about this, but you've given us some interesting food for thought.  Thanks.<br /><br /><br />TFK<br /><br /><br /><br />


created: 2005-01-21 12:49:20
subject: <b>Very good</b>
body:
The focus on the precision of the wewaving was definitely too much missing until now. And I completely agree, taht precision is at least as important as strenght.<br /><br />Especially valuable can be for future theorizing the connection between Talents and precision in particular Elements.<br /><br />The connection between strenght and precision could be maybe unified in them being two aspects of the degree of control over the Power. The connection of Precision to ability to control is obvious, while with strenght it is not visible at first glance but it is so. because every channeler can draw more Power than his/her strenght limit allows - only that it would be fatal for the channeler because he/she will lose the control over the Power and will be burned out by that. So the limitation of one's strenght is limitation of one's ability to control Power. Your theory, Sidious gives a possible hint also about which exactly two aspects of controlling ability the strenght and precision represent. Strenght seems to refer to the controlling the Power as whole, as rough material, while precision is control over the particular aspects of Power's utilization. Precision in Earth of Water but no Strenght in Earth - i.e. precision is found there where controlled are elements one by one, not the whole.


created: 2005-01-21 15:06:16
subject: <b>All good</b>
body:
Couldn't find any flaws or mistakes, even though there must be some (no offense, it's just that, as well thought out as something can be, it's never perfect). To me, all of it seems to be sound, with enough research and background knowledge supporting it to make it seem credible. All in all, great job. Keep up the good work.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">http://www.orkut.com/Profile.aspx?uid=4841668765074332965<br /><br />&quot;It's like God gave you the tools to build a house, and the blueprint is in you. Just remember to use rubber gloves.&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2005-01-21 15:51:43
subject: <b>Very nice theory Sid!</b>
body:
I like most of it and don't really disagree with the conclusions.<br /><br />One point, however : <b>&#8220;It is the precision of the circles which makes them so powerful. The exact strike of one chisel can split a stone that would withstand any number of blows from a hammer&#8230;&#8221;</b><br /><br />I interpret this quote very differently than you do. Based on the metaphore used, I don't think precision orginates from the link itself, I think what is meant is rather that a circle, being lead by a single skilled weaver, can be much more precise than unlinked channelers combining their separate weaves.<br /><br />Or, basically, that using a san'angreal has pretty much the same effect as forming a circle of thirteen women.<br /><br />Even for a very skilled weaver, links are an advantage to working alone - but in this case not a gain in precision.<br /><br />Beyond that, I think the precision of the work is increased by combining saidin and saidar to do certain tasks instead of working with only one half of the power, and to maximize this effect using links is again much better than men/women working separetly (they wouldn't even see what the other is doing).<br /><br />So, I disagree a little about the mechanics of how links provide more precision, but I agree with all the rest - including that precision has probably something to do with strength.<br /><br />Nicely exposed and written, btw!<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="images/personalsmilies/30778.gif" />Wheel of Time Reference Library : Articles, maps, charts and misc.<img src="images/personalsmilies/30778.gif" /><br /><br /></font><p><a href="http://13depository.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">The Thirteenth Depository - a Wheel of Time Blog</a></p><p></p>


created: 2005-01-21 16:14:55
subject: <b>Agree! Except for terminology</b>
body:
I do not know if I agree with the word &#8220;precision&#8221;.  Precision seems like it would be an &#8220;individual&#8217;s&#8221; ability of being exact or precise.  A linked circle is still controlled by 1 person.  I think the ability of being precise could vary between individuals.  I think by linking and or being strong in the OP allows the &#8220;Density&#8221; of the weave to increase.  Which then allows whoever is controlling the weave to make it that much more sharp. I would say an analogy would be a knife and sword.  A knife,  with less metal can only have so much used for the cutting edge,  but a sword with that much more metal has a much larger area that can be used for a cutting edge.  Also the denser weave has a less chance of being cut.  Like a knife may break or shatter if hit by a sword.<br /><br />Other than that I totally agree with your theory.<br />


created: 2005-01-21 16:31:59
subject: <b>Good one, sidious</b>
body:
Just one thing. I think it has been stated that the one leading the circle is of great importance. That would imply that just having a circle would not guarantee perfect precision.<br /><br />However, I agree mostly.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2005-01-21 17:15:20
subject: <b>Thanks</b>
body:
I knew I wasn't the only one who grasped this concept.  Great job of putting together the peices.  The last time I participated in this discussion no one would budge on the possibilities you've put forth, even though as you've shown the evidence is right in the books.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where did these Skimmers come from?  I mean if they didn't want to read the book they could have just Traveled to another author.  Why risk arriving at the wrong destination?  Why risk falling into darkness?</font><p></p>


created: 2005-01-21 18:02:17
subject: <b>Interesting, but I have a few comments.</b>
body:
First, like DomA said, I don't think that a link would add to precision.  It's just that one person aiming for a spot with a big, powerful hammer is better than seven people swinging for one spot at the same time with smaller, weaker hammers.<br /><br />As for Demandred, I find I disagree with what his problem was.  He makes it clear that the weaves coming at him are stronger than he would expect.  My interpretation of this is that at the beginning at least, Demandred didn't put together that the weaves he was fighting off from Flinn were not just saidin, but were also part saidar.  He couldn't see the saidar weaves and didn't click on the fact that Flinn was linked with the two women.  And as for his performance compared to the other Forsaken, I would remind you that he was the only one we know of to face a circle led by an Asha'man.  The others were led by AS.  I think that has a bearing on how the combat played out.  I don't think Eben would've died if he'd been leading the circle.<br /><br />One last point I'd like to make is that, according to the BWB, during the AoL, circles were led a person with great skill in what was being done.  It also says that women were known for having greater dexterity in weaving than men.  While dexterity could be another name for precision, I'm not sure.  Also, the first part has always indicated to me that at times the person who led the circle could be someone of low overall strength in the OP, but who had skill at what was being done.  I think this indicates that a person who is relatively weak can have skill and talent surpassing stronger channels in some areas, but lack the strength to do it on as large a scale.<br /><br />I know I said that would be my last point, but I'm thinking now and something additional came to mind.  When Elayne is riding on the SF ship to Tanchico, she learns some from the Windfinder on affecting weather.  It's commented on that the SF use weaves of Air far thicker than the WT and have great ability at controlling the weather.  Even Moridin thinks how the SF have great ability at it.  I think it's fair to say that it is because of the thick weaves they use.  This would indicate that at least in this example, a thicker flow is perferrable to a fine one.  <br /><br />You make some good points, and percision maybe another facet to channeling, but I think there is still more to it than that.


created: 2005-01-21 21:51:25
subject: <b>A weak channeler with precision</b>
body:
One example of a weak channeler with precision comes in CoS, when Nynaeve and Elayne see the really weak Kinswoman try Healing on a duelling victim---it's when they first suspect the presence of wilders. I'm not sure precision is always related to strength. I suspect that strong channelers TEND to be more precise, but that skill has a bigger role to play.


created: 2005-01-22 07:26:26
subject: <b>Well done!</b>
body:
Very thorough, and nicely said. I saw a lot of your arguments on the MB when you were gathering your evidence, so I don't have much to add, but wanted to say I like it. <br /><br />Thumbs up!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2005-01-22 15:35:32
subject: <b>Fortelling</b>
body:
Just a point on the relation of precision to Talents. in Seanchan, every caster can Fortell at will. Perhaps Fortelling requires a certain amount of precision that can be taught. If that is true then that is very likely the first thing that they woul be taught. Just a thought.


created: 2005-01-23 09:43:37
subject: <b>one problem</b>
body:
logain didn't nearly break nyneaves shield. if i remeber correctly she compared him to a man flexing long-unused muscles against a wall. this implys that regardless or how strong logain was, he had no real hope of pushing  down the wall. alll the rest was great, well done!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> let the speedbart ride again upon the winds of time <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Made the second post on the new WoTMB2 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-01-23 20:33:33
subject: <b>&quot;Brown is Best&quot; is right</b>
body:
We have seen precision weaving by weak channelers before. A special case was the kinswoman that could shield even one of the forsaken. I cannot remember which book it was in, or even the kinswoman's name, but she shielded Nynaeve and was able to hold it. This had to be precision weaving.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Asmodean is alive and posing as Sammael!<br /><br />Sammael <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sammy.gif" border="0" /> is Sparticus.<br /><br />No, I'm Sparticus! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /> = <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />I'm Herid Fel Reborn!!!!! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shy.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-01-24 13:35:47
subject: <b>Some points</b>
body:
Firstly , Nynaeve could not have held Logain if he wished to break her shield. He is nearly as strong as Rand and he himself says that no 3 women can shield him , unless one of them is as strong as Semirhage or Mesanna. In this case it implies that two can perhaps hold him.<br /><br />The entire passage implies that he could break free from Nynaeve's shield. She is as strong as 3 Aes Sedai and they certainly cannot hold a man of his strength.<br /><br />Secondly , the Kinswoman has one of two assets. Either she has learned to create a shield which cannot be broken - just like Verin created undetectable compulsion ... or she is very strong in Spirit and has great dexterity in it. Either way , the shield is not described as a precise one but rather as one which bends under the weight of Nynaeve's attempts. Not good enough for evidence unfortunately but I'm willing to have an open mind.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">A One Power researcher<br />Defender of Lanfear<br />Grand Ninja-Nae'blis to be feared <br />Original Warder to Isa <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br />New Warder to Nossie <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />Toy to Seriana <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/winky.gif" border="0" /><br />Mystified by a Fan <br />Bonded Phelix - I was young, it happened so fast.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-01-25 20:01:40
subject: <b>Precision is based on skill, strength allows more fudge room</b>
body:
I've always regarded precision as a function of skill and training (granted that there are &quot;born naturals&quot;; here, those who just see a weave once and pick it up, etc.).  Take hammering a nail for example.  If you are very precise and hit the head of the nail every time you can use less power and time to drive it in.  However if you only hit the head one of every three times it's gonna take you a lot longer and maybe a broken thumb to drive it in.  And those who are carpenters by trade and have been hammering nails for years will have learned how to be precise with their hammering whereas someone who's never built anything with hammer and nails before is more likely to have problems.<br /><br />Where strength comes into play as a sort of fudge margin is in the size of the hammer.  If you are using a tack hammer with a small head you have to be very precise or you're going to miss a lot.  However if you've got a sledge hammer you have a lot more room for error and don't have to be nearly so precise.<br /><br />When talking about circles i believe that the precision they are talking about is that one person guides the flows, not however many individuals guiding flows for the same purpose.   No matter how in sync a group of people are, they will never be as precise as a single individual controling all the flows.  And as to mixed links, i believe the added benefit is from 1) the fact that in general men are stronger which will give the circle more strength, even if the connection is parallel and not serial, and 2) most important of all is the balancing factor.  A circle of all women is one sided, adding men adds the balance.  Balance being a central theme to this series and in nature in general.<br /><br />Overall I agree that precision plays a large part in channeling ability/aptitude, but I believe that precision is a result of skill (either natural or gained through experience) and is not an inherant part of channeling.  Strength may seem like it has inherent precision, but that is because of the fudge factor.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Smile, it confuses people.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-01-26 14:11:51
subject: <b>Precision and Strength</b>
body:
Very well-worded theory!<br /><br />I've always thought, though, that someone like Daigian is at a disadvantage, not because she's the weakest sister in the Tower, but because she's been taught since she gained the shawl that she's the lowest of the low.  (Remember novices and Accepted are discouraged from thinking about relative strength.)<br /><br />The Kinswomen, who never learned the emphasis on strength; the Sea Folk, among whom strength is probably a factor but not the most important; and the Wise Ones (to whom OP strength seems to matter not a whit) all seem to have no trouble with precision.  Sorelia, for example, can form the complex weave of a gateway, even as weak as she is, relatively easily.  Strength (and possibly Talent) is the factor there, rather than precision.<br /><br />As to Talents being the ability to weave a specific thing more precisely than other people can, I like it.  Elayne is very strong, yet to her Nynaeve's Healing looks impossibly complex.  Elayne has very little of that Talent.<br /><br />Linking: I tend to agree with the people who've said that much of the precision described is probably due to one person controlling the Power instead of, say, the Air shield over Dumai's Wells, which had to be many smaller shields butted (or otherwise fitted) together.  Unless someone was strong enough to cover the whole area - Taim may be.  Is there a specific description in LoC?  I'm at work.<br /><br />However, your point does have some merit.  It may be that there is some innate advantage to being linked, or to being strong in the Power.  Stronger channellers do tend to learn faster.  It would certainly help explain how Damer, Corele and Sarene managed to hand Demandred his sorry bottom <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />.<br /><br />Cheers!  I really enjoyed reading this theory.<br /><br />Branwhin


created: 2005-01-30 05:57:57
subject: <b>Good theory...</b>
body:
And a topic I never thought much about.<br /><br />One point, though, which was already mentioned above Fred Gaidin .<br /><br />In TSR, ch.20, Elayne watches the Windfinder Jorin changing the wind:<br />&quot;The flows of Air and Water the Windfinder handled were cable-thick, yet her weaving was intricate, almost delicate, and it reached as far as the eye could see across the waters, a web drawn across the sky.&quot;<br /><br />The flows are thick, but the weaving very delicate or precise.<br /><br />Of course we don't know how strong Jorin is, but I rather don't have the impression that she is Wondergirl-Class.<br /><br />Neither Elayne nor Nynaeve remark or think that Joline is especially strong like themselves, just that she is very good.<br /><br />On the other hand, Jorin says to Elayne:<br />&quot;When you first named yourselves, I thought you must know me, but you did not speak, and you asked passage, and I hoped perhaps you were not Aes Sedai despite your rings. A foolish hope. I could feel the strength of you both. And now the White Tower will know.&quot;<br /><br />This indicates to me that she is probably weaker than Elayne. <br />


created: 2005-01-31 17:44:42
subject: <b>Short Point on Linking</b>
body:
If you consider that the women in a link can feel each others feelings and perhaps even thoughts you have to realize that their minds as well as their Power is joined.  If you think about it this effect most likely indicates the nature of the link.  If their minds merging did not provide some function it would not exist.  One of the things we regulary compare in our world is the computer and the brain and how their ability to process information is similar.  The more information either is able to process the more accurate and precise their calculations.  I postulate that regardless of who is inputting the information in a link, all of the minds help process the information so that the output is more accurate.  In the example mentioned above The WIndfinder had greater skill and so knew what information to input but the other twelve channelers helped processed that information as a group mind and so come out with a better result than the single mind could even if it had access to the same amount of Power.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where did these Skimmers come from?  I mean if they didn't want to read the book they could have just Traveled to another author.  Why risk arriving at the wrong destination?  Why risk falling into darkness?</font><p></p>


created: 2005-02-04 04:58:19
subject: <b>The precision of a link.</b>
body:
&#8220;It is the precision of the circles which makes them so powerful. The exact strike of one chisel can split a stone that would withstand any number of blows from a hammer&#8230;&quot;<br /><br />  Is that absolutely correct? The chisel and stone analogy seems to imply that the strength of the channelers in a link are added up to produce one big, strong weave, woven by the person leading the link, something like adding up the force of the seven hammer strikes into a single chisel strike. <br />  But when Rand is shielded by six linked women, he is able to  feel six soft points, whereas Nyneave when shielded by Talaan feels just one. Also, notice that whenever links are spoken   of, the leader of the link is said to <br />&quot;control the flow through&quot; the others in the link or &quot;meld the flows&quot; of the power. All this seems to imply that in a link, the controller directs the weaving of a web by each member of the ring, each web being so very identical to the others that it seems as if the power of each member of the ring has been just about added up to give a stronger weave(this is very clearly seen in the scene where Aviendha and Elayne link to bond Rand). So we can say its like all the seven hammer blows strike at the same instant, at the same location but guided/controlled by one mind.<br />   This explains the facts, that a link increases precision and that the leader of a ring is important, very nicely. The greater precision weaving capacity of the leader guides the power flowing into each member of the link(regardless of their personal precision) into the reguired weave, thus increasin the overall precision.<br />   Well thats what I think. There may be better explanations though.


created: 2008-04-24 10:14:55
subject: <b>Eben died?</b>
body:
Eben did not die before Halima attacked the circle, but after she was driven off.  How will you change your theory?


created: 2008-05-26 19:41:02
subject: <b>Yes</b>
body:
I really liked this theory. Mostly because I've been wondering about the whole thing with shielding people of the same strength, as seen with Moghedien vs Nynaeve och Nynaeve vs Talaan. Once might argue that Nyn and Talaan simply distracted each other and made the other's connection so saidar dwindle, which was the case at one instance. But one of the times Nynaeve was very much prepared, and surprise wouldn't explain the battle with Moghedien. Surely both of them should have been able to just let the incoming shields just bounce off. If not for something like precision weaving. <br /><br />I do not think that that precision would be the same thing as deftness with weaving. I've always seen deftness as the ability to make your weaves more effective and require less of the One Power. A man would normaly, compared to a woman, just put his flows together and boost them with a loot of Power to get an effect, with a quite large waste. A woman, on the other hand, usually weaves much more deftly, requiring less Power to reach the same effect. It's just a matter of forming the weaves well, and has nothing to do with strength or weaving very thin flows.<br /><br />Supposedly someone would need strength at least in the flow if not in the Power as a whole to weave anything but normal sized flows. Egwene somewhere comments on the fact that no one could probably weave flows so small that they could remove honey from tea. And we saw Moghediens finely woven illusion in Tarabon. I belive that that counts more towards precision, and making a weave very precise could very likely mean that you would have an easier time shielding someone. <br /><br />But deftness and precision could be much the same thing, of course. But I do believe that there's a lot to this theory <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />


created: 2005-01-21 17:16:58
subject: <b>A nice, neat package</b>
body:
I like it.<br /><br />Also, your interpretation of Mat, naked with his ashandarei is good, much better than mine (that an altered version was fulfilled in Rhuidean.)<br /><br />I believe that the woman with the sword rescuing Egwene will be Egeanin. This will be a chance for her to redeem herself with Tuon (being sent by Tuon at Mat`s urging, since he is who he is. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> Then later, Tuon herself will go to the WT to put an end to the Seanchan collaring of AS.<br />It will be Tuon with Egwene when Rand and the Amyrlin confront each other.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2005-01-21 17:25:14
subject: <b>I don't completely agree, but still...</b>
body:
Excellent theory!  It's so nice to be able to speculate about what's going to happen in KOD.  Perhaps I'm getting my hopes up, but I'll enjoy it no matter what's in it.<br /><br /><b>So much to do, so little time!</b><br /><br />Exactly.  My hunch is that KOD will end as even more of a cliffhanger than COT.  My pet theory on the subject of Rand/Mat/Perrin's meeting up is that it won't happen until the last book.  Here's why.<br /><br />First, we have the header prophecy speaking of &quot;the left hand faltering and the right hand straying.&quot;  Perrin and Mat have been doing some faltering and straying, respectively.  Add that to Min's viewing of female channelers hurting Rand and Egwene's dream of the woman in shadow beckoning Mat towards danger leads me to believe that Rand will have to deal with his own problems in KOD.<br /><br />In &quot;A Cluster of Rosebuds,&quot; Mat returns to the circus, fully expecting to find his party gone and Luca in gleeful possession of all his gold.  However, Tuon has given Luca the rite of passage, in a sense.  Then she tells Mat that there is a list of people NOT under her &quot;protection&quot; with the menagerie.  She says, &quot;Can you guess whose name heads that list, Toy?&quot;  She is saying that Mat is not under protection!  And Mat promised that he would return her to Ebou Dar when it was safe.  But, if Mat is not under Tuon's protection, it is NOT to return to Ebou Dar!  We don't know exactly what Tuon is planning, but from her actions, she wants to stick with Mat.  Interesting.<br /><br />So that's why I don't think that Mat and Tuon are heading back to Ebou Dar.  A grand rescue wouldn't fit, in my mind, with RJ's description of KOD as &quot;dark&quot;.  I think that KOD will deal with Perrin and Elayne, for the most part, and will end with RAnd still in captivity.  Infuriating, yes, but exiting nonetheless.<br /><br />Well, that's my take.  I think that the &quot;straying&quot; of Mat and the &quot;faltering&quot; of Perrin will be going on in KOD.  They will have to team up to safe Rand from Semi in Ebou Dar so he can have is Bannerman and Hornsounder at Tarmon Gai'don.


created: 2005-01-21 18:31:18
subject: <b>Osan'gar and Aran'gar</b>
body:
Another possibility is that those hands/ (daggers) belong to DO. Or they could mean those 2 recycled Forsaken. After all one of them died and another lost her/ (his) chances to manipulate Egwene to group of AS who could use her in a way that would actually hurt interests of DO. Naturally assuming that Aran'gar didn't have orders to give E to those sisters.


created: 2005-01-21 19:22:42
subject: <b>Just some idle comments</b>
body:
Perrin's 2nd saving of Rand. The first saving was a battle, so RJ would pick the 2nd saving to be different - i.e. saving Rand from Slayer - Perrin and Slayer have to duke it out to the finish. This would leave open your theory of Mat running into Rand. <br /><br />The naked and bound dream of Perrins (?) was just before Mat went to Rhuidean I think. And also Mat after the Shaido/Cairhein battle was sitting on a rock with his hat pulled low across his forehead as he took and arrow graze. Forehead wounds bleed like crazy.<br /><br />If there is only 12 books in the series then the 'binding of the nine moons' should occur at the end of Book 11 and Tuon is the woman to bind. The suldam secret to blackmail Tuon, and marrying a man who commands Artur Hawkwing to consolidate her power.<br /><br />Someone mentioned the 'something flickers' chapter when Mat ordered the death of a woman may be connected to Giving up Half the Light of the World. So Mat may kill a woman (Semirhage) to save Tuon (and the Seanchan alliance) thereby saving the world.<br /><br />If King Roedran was Cyndane's headless man then the Band may well be half way to Ebou Dar by now<br /><br />As for Ebou Dar. I hope there is no return, because 3 books of that place is enough  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br />


created: 2005-01-22 05:36:59
subject: <b>Yub</b>
body:
Many people believe that Mat will meet Perrin soon and fight the Shaido, but I'm also convinced (since Fyatuk's theory &quot;The Cupbearer General&quot; ) that Mat will be captured by the DWG, become for a short time a da'covale and return with his party to Ebou Dar for the several plot reasons you pointed out.<br /><br />I think, though, that Perrin will come to Ebou Dar as well, and thus finally all ta'veren will be united again.


created: 2005-01-22 07:20:04
subject: <b>Nice Linda....</b>
body:
Very neat and well put together as usual. I can actually see it playing out similar to the way you have it laid out, too. (In fact I would very much like to see Mat save Rand like Perrin did, and this would be the opportunity for RJ to do it.)<br /><br />Of course it is questionable if RJ will do this or not. So far it seems Mat has been left to rescue AS repeatedly, especially the wondergirls. The Gholam is his adversary of the moment too, and it makes me wonder if he is fated to ever oppose any of the Forsaken directly or not. Seems like that is left to Rand and the girls for the time being. Perrin and his wolves appear to be faced-off with the Darkhounds at some point. Perhaps Mat will be the one to eventually face Shaidar Haran? Will his medallion protect against the TP? (I kind-of like that match-up if it does!)<br /><br />I was really hoping to see Rand learn to not be so trusting, but it appears he hasn't learned his lesson and will be made prisoner again. (Rand needed help from one of his ta'veren pals to escape that noose, so there is hope for Mat to play a role in this.) Perrin is once again rescuing kidnapping victims, and we've came full circle back to the menagerie. To date, one of Mat's biggest moments was defeating a fierce warrior in Couladin and gathering himself followers. So defeating the Gholam would replay that symmetry, and bringing the Seanchan to the side of the Light would complete it, IMO.<br /><br />Anyway, great theory, and a thumbs up from me!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2005-01-22 12:35:11
subject: <b>All the ta'veren together?</b>
body:
What a day to play dice then.<br /><br />Good theory. This pretty much seems to me to be what's gonna happen. Especially if you look at what can come later. The Big Three march up from the south, gathering all the nations and armies along the way. They go all the way to the Blight and camp out there for the Last Battle (yes, I know I am missing some important stuff, but this is basics).  This to me seems likely to happen, since I think that (would like for) Book 12 will be consumed mostly, if not all, by Tarmon Gaidon.<br /><br />And, of course, another nice meeting would be Rand and the three girls (think about the possibiliter <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />).<br /><br />Well, nice theory. I agree!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">http://www.orkut.com/Profile.aspx?uid=4841668765074332965<br /><br />&quot;It's like God gave you the tools to build a house, and the blueprint is in you. Just remember to use rubber gloves.&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2005-01-22 13:32:29
subject: <b>Great!</b>
body:
I think this is the best reasoned out theory I've read yet!  Nice!<br /><br />You're right - so much to do...  I can't believe all these many plots will resolve in just two more books.  It makes me suspect it will be more like 5 more books.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />  However many, they certainly will be extremely action-packed!<br /><br />I alwasy got the impression that the Seanchan woman who was trying to save Egwene in her dream was Alivia - but I think you are right.  Min saw the golden hawk saving her and I'd totally missed that Tuon's banner is a golden hawk!


created: 2005-01-22 22:22:55
subject: <b>This hasn't much to do with the theory, but ...</b>
body:
Knife of Dreams, KOD...KOD looks SO weird, I haven't seen a new WoT Abbreviated Title for far too long <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />I agree, by the way; can't find any major holes - yet<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">i have severed all my former allegiances to The Forsaken Who Shall Not Be Named Any More Because She Was Dumb Enough To Get Captured (TFWSNBNAMBSWDETGC).<br /><br />sigh. now i must find a new forsaken to root for.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-01-22 23:05:57
subject: <b>Tuon will let Mat be tortured? Will Rand never learn?</b>
body:
Overall, I enjoyed your theory.  Good job!<br /><br />Two questions in my mind.  Granted, Mat is not under Tuon's protection (vis a vis her list), but would she really let him be taken away and tortured?  She's relatively uninformed, but surely she must figure out that handing over Mat to torture is a bad idea, if only from a purely anti-DO point of view.  Perhaps when the showdown happens with Suroth, assuming Semi/Anath really does collar Rand, then any attempt on Tuon's part to punish Suroth for the impersonation would likely put her in imminent danger.  Ya just don't anger someone who has the DR collared.  So maybe then, Mat is taken away and tortured by Semi/Anath against Tuon's will.  Okay, I'll buy that, but then you couldn't say he was being tortured for laying hands on the DotNM.<br /><br />But otherwise I'm not sure.  I'm also unsure whether the ravens-into-skin vision necessarily means he's going to be made da'covale.  Can you imagine Tuon ordering Mat into transparent white garments, and him EVER wanting to go near her again?  The grim acceptance could signify his acceptance of a noble Seanchan wife, along with the responsibility of rulership himself.  Rulers, even empress-consorts, may be servants of the people.<br /><br />Finally, while I agree it seems heavily forshadowed that Rand will be collared, and likely by Semi/Anath, if he is, then he's heading the list of idiots.  I mean, he doesn't trust ANY of his friends except Nynaeve and his girls.  He's been confined twice, by the AS and in Far Madding.  He's only going to be collared if he's stupid enough to go to the Seanchan without Logain and/or Bashere at his side.  Why on Earth should he trust the Seanchan when he doesn't trust anyone?  Is he really just going to sashay into a trap?<br /><br />We'll see.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Live as if you were living for the second time and had acted as wrongly the first time as you are about to act now.  -VF</font><p></p>


created: 2005-01-23 07:29:31
subject: <b>I agree with Comet Sedai</b>
body:
I can't see Rand being collared. He has to bind &quot;the nine moons &quot; to him, not the other way around. I believe Rand will spring this &quot;trap&quot; as one of the nine impossible things Nicola has foretelled he will do.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Founding member of the ASI</b><br /><br /><b>TP ADMIN</b><br /><br /><b>Simon</b><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-01-23 11:47:27
subject: <b>Yes! I found it, haha.</b>
body:
&quot;Egwene&#8217;s dreams indicate that Egwene will be rescued from her precarious position by a Seanchan woman (Crossroads of Twilight, In The Night) and that she is tied to a female golden hawk (A Crown Of Swords, Unseen Eyes). Tuon&#8217;s banner has a golden hawk on it.&quot;<br /><br />Tuon's personal banner is two golden lions harnessed to an ancient war-cart. (Winter's Heart, What a Veil Hides)<br /><br />So it's not Tuon that Egwene is tied to. It's Berelain - the Golden Hawk is the symbol of Mayene.<br /><br />As for the dream in the Crossroads of Twilight, about a Seanchan woman saving her, I don't think that's Tuon either. I don't know who, but just not Tuon.


created: 2005-01-23 12:36:47
subject: <b>Mat is going north, not south.</b>
body:
I used to think that this might happen, but after rereading the Mat<br />plotline in WH and CoT, and rereading the related Mat/Tuon theories, I<br />have completely changed my mind.  My motivation for doing this was to<br />figure out what was going on with Tuon when she took control.<br />Confused the hell out of me the first time I read that chapter, and my<br />reaction to the bit about the supposed meeting between Rand and the<br />DOTNM was: &quot;No! Not again. I thought Mat had finally gotten away from<br />that city.&quot;  But now I'm completely convinced that Mat and Tuon are<br />still going north, and the meeting b/w Rand and the DOTNM is a setup.<br /><br />I don't have time to writeup my thoughts into a proper theory, but<br />here is a summary:<br /><br />* It is important to remember that Tuon is and has always been a<br />  willing prisoner of Mat's.  She *wants* to travel with him, probably<br />  because of the fortelling that she was privy to.  When Tuon decided<br />  to assert herself, it was at a point where she didn't know whether<br />  or not Mat would be successful in `stopping the leak', and needed to<br />  be in a position where she could do something if he failed.  I also<br />  think that she also needed to put balance back in her bargain with<br />  Mat.  You could argue that when Mat decided not to leave her behind,<br />  that he was breaking part of his promise, in that she would be<br />  returned home at the earliest opportunity.  By breaking the part of<br />  her promise not to interfere with his subordinates, there is a sort<br />  of quid pro quo.  Notice that the way in which she does this - to<br />  put Luca under her protection, but not Mat - means that it is now<br />  too dangerous for him to leave her behind again, so he would no<br />  longer be breaking his part of the bargain.  I repeat, Tuon wants to<br />  travel with Mat, and the emergency is no longer immediate.<br /><br />* Perrin has an army, and a resue to attempt, but he is not an expert<br />  on battle strategy.  Mat is quite probably the most experienced<br />  general alive, and would know exactly what to do with Perrin's army.<br />  Perrin needs Mat.  And Mat's reunion with the band of the red hand<br />  is long overdue.  Someone has argued convincingly that the road that<br />  Mat is currently on leads directly to the town/city near where<br />  Perrin is, so he doesn't have far to travel.  And I would argue that<br />  merging the Perrin and Mat plotlines would advance the story and<br />  speed things up far more than Mat going back south (again).<br /><br />* Tuon has to come to terms with being a channeller, and has things to<br />  learn from Setalle Anan (who is almost certainly a stilled Aes<br />  Sedai).  She also has a lot more to learn about Mat, and Mat has a<br />  lot more to learn about her.  Its far more difficult for this to<br />  happen if they all go back south.<br /><br />* The snakes and foxes.  This gets resolved to the north, not the<br />  south, and members of Mat's party are undoubtedly involved.<br /><br />But for me, the most compelling reason:<br /><br />* If Mat and party were to go back south, then absolutely nothing<br />  important happened in the Mat plotline in CoT that couldn't have<br />  happened in WH.  Ok - so maybe RJ invented this little excursion<br />  north because he knows that people get upset when Mat gets left out<br />  of a book, but its just so pointless... and havn't we seen enough of<br />  Ebou Dar already?<br /><br />Anyway, the full details and justification are missing, but thats the<br />gist of what I think.<br />


created: 2005-01-23 12:58:09
subject: <b>About the Golden Hawk</b>
body:
Actually, Luthair's (Hawkwing son) banner was a Golden Hawk as well, and it's the banner of the Seanchan Empire. The Ravens-and-Towers are the banner of the Empress (may she live forever). I think that the vision means Egwene's connction to the Seanchan. After all, she was collared once and almost sent to Seandar(sp?), is connect all channelling to the Tower (freed damane and sul'dam included), and seems to be destined to ally with the Seanchan.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">http://www.orkut.com/Profile.aspx?uid=4841668765074332965<br /><br />&quot;It's like God gave you the tools to build a house, and the blueprint is in you. Just remember to use rubber gloves.&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2005-01-23 15:05:04
subject: <b>Goodness.</b>
body:
Actually, I don't think that the sul'dam and damane are going to be hooked into the Tower any more than the Aiel will be. I think that the Seanchan are going to form their own class of channelers for battle... I know Egwene said that she wants everybody who can channel included inside the White Tower, but she needs to be realistic. She can't keep true to the traditions of the various cultures - Seanchan, Aiel, possibly Shara next - and keep true to the Tower traditions. For example, Tower law says an Aes Sedai can't use the Power as a weapon, or that strength in the Power rank Aes Sedai: The Seanchan use the Power only for battle, and the Wise Ones don't care one bit about the ability to channel or one's strength. <br /><br />Next, I think it's a lot more realistic that Berelain will be the one that she meets, not the Seanchan. For one thing, Berelain is constantly referred to as a hawk - in both Egwene's dream of the Hawk and Falcon on Perrin's shoulder, and Min's vision of the Hawk and Falcon. In all other dreams of Egwene's, the Seanchan are symbolized as ravens. Changing that is like changing Mat from a fox to a snake. My bet is this is going to happen after Galad and Berelain meet, because I don't think the White Cloaks are going to be destroyed, they just need to mellow down their thoughts on channelers. <br /><br />And as I said, I sorely doubt that the women in Egwene's dream in the Crossroads of Twilight is Tuon. Mainly because the woman was wearing a sword. Do you see Tuon likely to pick up a sword? Or even to hop on a raken, for that matter? I think it's most likely Egeanin, because she was far more involved in the past Seanchan affairs in Randland than Tuon...and also because she knows all about the male a'dam, and I doubt Suroth - as a darkfriend - told Tuon, or that Egeanin did while they were in the wagon. A bombshell like that would surely have been mentioned. And I also think that Egwene's Accepted test will come true. She will be imprisoned - she's only a few steps away from being brought to Elaida - and I think that Rand will be brought to the White Tower, where the Black Ajah are. And we know that Semirhage (if you believe she's Anan) is extremely close to Mesaana, who is in the White Tower (they were always together when the Forsaken held meetings) so they might have worked something out. And Boom, Egwene's entire Test comes true. <br /><br />Oh, and I doubt the gholam is still in Ebou Dar. At this point he probably realized that Mat's gone and is tracking him down.


created: 2005-01-23 17:25:38
subject: <b>Replies</b>
body:
Egwene knows from her dreams that there are TWO Seanchan women associated with her: a golden hawk (one of the Paendrags) &#8220;who is tied to her in some way&#8221; and a swordswoman who saves her (see Egwene's Dreams - Non Ta'veren FAQ). Tuon is the only Senachan Paendrag on this side of the Aryth Ocean. The swordswoman may or may not be Egeanin, but someone has to arrange for the raken to take her there and also call off the attack. Tuon would be the most effective for both those tasks once she realises the truth about sul&#8217;dam. Suroth is hardly going to do either of those tasks.<br /><br />So the golden hawk is not Berelain, whom Egwene knows very well and would therefore recognise, but Tuon.<br /><br />Those who propose Mat moves north away from the Seanchan have yet to explain the viewings and dreams of him which are linked to the Seanchan and to nasty experiences. <br /><br />As for Mat&#8217;s being punished for laying hands on Tuon, it&#8217;s the law. Tuon has to uphold it, even for Mat, or else her authority is completely undermined. She is very conscious of the law and objected to Mat&#8217;s suggestion that she pose as a faithless servant because she cannot bear the thought of not obeying the law.<br /><br />As far as the prophesised raven tattoos go, in COT, A Fan of Colours, Tuon told Mat that she was considering making him da&#8217;covale and her cupbearer. Again, this can only happen if Tuon is in a position of authority and Mat in one of subjection. Which would be in a place where the Seanchan structures are completely in operation, like Ebou Dar.<br /><br />Rand will bind the Nine Moons to serve him, but only after the incident with the male a&#8217;dam.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> Linda Sedai <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Proud member of the Embroiderer's Guild of the White Tower<br /><br /><b><font color="red">FAQ admin</font></b> </font>'cos the FAQ is where it's at.<br /><br /><b>Currently working on:</b> my 70th FAQ<p><a href="http://13depository.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">The thirteenth depository : A Wheel of Time blog</a></p><p></p>


created: 2005-01-23 17:48:42
subject: <b>Still don't agree</b>
body:
I'm afraid that nothing says that Mat has to be the one that rescues Rand.  None of Egwene's dreams, which you refer to, have to have him back in Ebou Dar to be fulfilled.  Most of the dreams referring to Seanchan are so vague that they could mean anything.<br /><br />The only dream that actually CONFIRMS that Mat will be permanently involved with the Seanchan is the one where the ravens settle into his skin.  Nothing says that this cannot happen after Rand is freed, or somewhere else.  The oft-quoted &quot;woman in shadow&quot; vision could be referring to Semirhage, but it could be referring to almost anyone else, as well.  Even Tuon.<br /><br />The fact that Tuon states that Mat is NOT UNDER HER PROTECTION tells us that it is NOT safe for Mat to return Tuon to Ebou Dar.  Thus, they are not going back there.  Maybe somebody could refute this?  Until then, Mat will not be heading back to Ebou Dar immediately in KOD.


created: 2005-01-23 21:10:26
subject: <b>Tuon may uphold the law, but she's an absolute monarch</b>
body:
Yes, Tuon despises the idea of being labelled a faithless servant.  But I can also see her invoking Shakespeare's Henry V: &quot;Customs courtsey to great kings, Kate.&quot; Or, in this case, customs courtsey to great imperialists, Mat.  She's all but worshipped by nature of the blood in her veins, so I'm sure it's well within her power as DotNM to pardon Mat on a whim.  Who could possibly nay-say her?<br /><br />That's not even taking into consideration the fact that Mat needs to be available to sound the Horn (regardless of whether he's still bound to it or not, everyone in Randland thinks he is), to lead the Band, to help Rand save the world.  Unless Tuon makes him da'covale after TG (no way, RJ), when exactly she would do this is unclear to me.  Of course, my sense of exciting plot flow and RJ's sense of exciting plot flow haven't coincided much in the last books, so anything's possible under the light.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Live as if you were living for the second time and had acted as wrongly the first time as you are about to act now.  -VF</font><p></p>


created: 2005-01-24 14:28:51
subject: <b>What about laughter and tears</b>
body:
I think this would be a great direction for the story to go, but I'm not convinced that it is the actual direction RJ will take it.<br />Specifically, the part that worries me is the prediction that Rand must learn 'laughter and tears,' probably from Cadsuane. If Rand gets captured again, he's just going to harden himself more, make himself less emotionally accessible to others. If this happens, as we've heard before, then having Rand win the Last Battle could be as bad as having him lose it.<br />When will this happen if Rand is actually captured? Presumably, Cadsuane would be kept away from Rand if he is captured, and I don't see there being enough time in two books to have Rand be captured, freed, and taught 'laughter and tears,' and still have enough time to group the armies of the world together and fight the Last Battle.<br />But hey, maybe I'm totally wrong. All I'm saying is that I don't see how the 'laughter and tears' will fit in if Rand is captured for another extended period of time to be eventually freed by Mat after he is punished for touching the DotNM.


created: 2005-01-24 15:10:52
subject:
<b>Can't Rand just save himself? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /></b>

body:
From what we know of the &quot;Sad braclets&quot; aka the male a'dam, could'nt Rand just eventually take control over those attached to the bracelets, and then travel/skim his way outta there <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> ? Although it wouldn't be quite as dramatic as Mat saving him.<br /><br />Also, what with the prophecies being as hit and miss as they are, is it possible that if Rand was connected to the false DotNM (possibly Semmy/Anath), and then take control over the a'dam would it be considered as Rand 'binding' the Nine moons to him? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /> (Not very likely)<br /><br />Nevertheless, it would still be a cool scene if we had a power struggle between Rand and Semmy over control of the a'dam, no matter what else is going on around him <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" />


created: 2005-01-24 18:48:22
subject: <b>Excellent rendition of your earlier MB theory</b>
body:
I agree with your suggestion that Mat will be the one involved, not Perrin.<br /><br />Min's viewing was that Perrin would need to be there twice, but it's not a garantee that he will be there. From what Min said, what's garanteed is that if Perrin isn't there things will go quite badly for Rand with women who can channel (to call them &quot;Aes Sedai&quot; is a leap some characters made later) ... Min would probably have worded her warning to Rand differently if her viewing told her Perrin would save Rand for sure; instead she worried that Rand was sending Perrin away. <br /><br />IMO Mat was the &quot;straying&quot; hand in CoT.  For some time I've begun to believe the Pattern is what was delaying Mat in CoT. It <i>did</i> weave for him to kidnap Tuon and thus take her from Semirhage at this juncture (I imagine if the real Tuon has met Rand with Anath nearby and Mat away the world was pretty doomed), but it's not allowing Mat and Tuon to stray too far from Ebou Dar either because they will be needed there soon - which ties nicely with your theory I think.<br /><br />I like the part about the Seafolk a lot.  As things stand right now, a huge naval battle near Ebou Dar is the best foreseable involvement in the last part of the story of their bargain with Rand - so many of their boats are too big to come up river and all - it's really not clear what else they could do in the finale.<br /><br />Tuon delayed and the Seanchan facing strong opposition : <br /><br />Another thing I like a lot about your theory is that it allows for Tuon to be grounded for a while yet in Ebou Dar and be unable to come to Egwene's help too early - probably not even in book 11 (I conclude like you that Egwene's savior or at least main savior is Tuon. I don't see who else it could be - nobody has the authority to stop the WT attack or even change anything to its aftermath. There migth be another Seanchan with a sword, but this might also be a symbol for Tuon coming with armed forces?? - Sorry I didn't check if the Dream allows for such an interpretation). A battle with the Seafolk that only Rand can stop (and he might be &quot;indisposed&quot; for a while after Semirhage's cares) can also play a role in this.  Tuon won't fly on a raken to Tar Valon when what's left of her fleet is being destroyed in Ebou Dar.  Similarly, news from Rodel Itulrade's attack may play a role in tying Tuon to Ebou Dar until the WT is conquered.  I suspect it's gonna take some time to convince Tuon that :<br /><br />A. Rand will not kneel to her and serve the CT - no matter how impressive the tantrum she throws about it.<br />B. She <i>should</i> free the Aes Sedai.<br />C. The Return is suddenly going really, really, badly.<br /><br />It seems Ebou Dar could be yet another case of Light destroying Light and playing into the Shadow's hands - like it's speculated for Caemlyn. The army sent to Maldon might be in trouble as well. One thing that might convince Tuon to change her mind is actually news that the Trollocs Invasions have started and the Borderlands are being overun rapidly. If she doesn't regroup her forces and free the Aes Sedai, the Shadowspawn will soon raze TV.<br /><br />Once Tuon learns who Anath is, and that Suroth is a traitor, she might have to thread extremely carefully about Tar Valon as well - especially if Suroth and her pawns are in truth the ones hiding behind the &quot;Seanchan nobles&quot; who are organizing the TV attack.  Tuon may know or suspect the Army there has DFs among the leaders and with an army gone to Maldon, problems in the West and a disaster in Ebou Dar she may not have enough forces available to go to Tar Valon and take control there unless her seekers can learn first from Suroth who the traitors in TV are.<br /><br />Tuon having Mat tortured :<br /><br />On this I'm not quite convinced yet she will be involved. I'm biased because I really like her - I'll admit as much. It's not impossible she does, and it is the Law and in theory Tuon should apply the law, but I'll be surprised if RJ goes this way. To put it simply, Tuon was introduced very late in the story, so with little time to shine, and if she is to &quot;redeem&quot; herself later and be one of the good guys, Jordan must thread carefully with her. Mat is so much a fan favorite that if Tuon has Mat tortured gruesomely, she will join the club of WoT most hated female characters very fast, with too little time to redeem herself in book 12.  Cadsuane got hated for being arrogant and slapping Rand - I don't dare imagining what some will think of Tuon if she nearly kills Mat! To save herself she would have to put a stop to the torture really fast, and this doesn't fit with the foreshadowing.  It seems Mat will suffer a great deal, I suspect at the hands of the Seekers.<br /><br />Personally my speculation on this goes in another direction.  I think Tuon and Mat will both be &quot;captured&quot; by Seanchan DFs from Ebou Dar sent by Semirhage and Suroth - perhaps at the circus itself. Tuon won't comply easily but Selucia won't be brought along for some mysterious reason (maybe because Suroth ordered it - e.g. she will be attacked and left unconscious) and Karede won't find Tuon in time.  He will come to the circus after Tuon is gone (via raken?) and learn from Selucia that she went back to Ebou Dar in very dubious circumstances. Karede will share the info about the rumours of a plot and the Seanchan will be looking for allies to go save Tuon is ED. Aludra will come up with the gunpowder, Setalle Anan with the info on Ebou Dar itself, Thom and Juilin might suggest seeking the help of Beslan etc.<br /><br />I think Suroth/Anath will torture Mat because of all the problems he caused to their plans.  The fact Mat has his medallion seem to suggest Semirhage won't deal with him directly. Convenient if the Gholam comes for him too! This might also suggest Semirhage still doesn't know who Mat really is.<br /><br />My hunch is that the darkhounds are looking for Tuon as well, but Semirhage has fallen for Mat's trick of remaining close to Ebou Dar and her DH are too far north. Just a hunch, because most of the Wild Hunts legends have a woman as prey.  I think they might finally report her whereabouts to Semirage and she will organize a discreet &quot;rescue party&quot; in KoD.<br /><br />Anath and Suroth possibly cannot afford to have Tuon back at this point, now that they have usurped her authority re:Rand. Certainly not if they let Tuon any liberty. I would not be surprised if Semirhage leaves her a secret prisonner until she has enough free time to &quot;convince&quot; her to go along her plans for Rand post capture - like she did with government officials in the WoS.<br /><br />One thing you have not suggested is the possibility that Aviendha and Elayne also rush to Ebou Dar when Rand's state becomes extremely bad.<br /><br />This might provide the Three in a Boat scene, in Ebou Dar's harbor.  Elayne going away secretely, even for a short time, might spark the disaster in Caemlyn.  This would help tie a few lose ends too - such as how Elayne and Mat could be reunited for Caemlyn.  <br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /> <br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="images/personalsmilies/30778.gif" />Wheel of Time Reference Library : Articles, maps, charts and misc.<img src="images/personalsmilies/30778.gif" /><br /><br /></font><p><a href="http://13depository.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">The Thirteenth Depository - a Wheel of Time Blog</a></p><p></p>


created: 2005-01-31 08:27:49
subject: <b>Ebou Dar or elsewhere</b>
body:
Wouldn't it be not better to not anchor this good theory necessary to return to Ebou Dar? The meeting between Rand and Suroth would be not necessary to be in Ebou Dar, but IMHO both sides would prefer to do it in a more neutral territory. The territory between Altara and Murandi is a good choice for that. Mat is heading now exactly in this direction. Since Malden is a city in northeast Altara on the way to Murandi, then Perrin is also in the direction (but much in north than possible places Mat can reach), but the coming Seanchan army would appear from the South, and it's where Perrin has to go (or sent Berelain) for the negotiations with Seanchan. That opens the possibilities for the three ta'veren to come together keeping the other advantages of the theory.


created: 2005-01-31 22:06:43
subject: <b>....</b>
body:
People! Mat's not going all the way back to Ebou Dar. He's been there for 5 books, including Path of Daggers and Lord of Chaos (cuz he was still technically there, even if we didn't see him.) That's good enough.<br /><br />I'm gonna make a theory on this sometime, but I think that Mesaana and Semirhage are working together, and Semirhage is going to send Rand to the White Tower, with all the Black Ajah and Mesaana, where they can put him in a circle of 13. Egwene will be rescued by Gawyn (or somebody other than Mat, because he has other things to be doing than haring off after women - again) and then she's going to rescue Rand, which is close to what happened in her Accepted Test, and it's clear that much of it has become true. And it's not like it'll take much time, since the Forsaken can make gateways. Plus Rand has to get to the White Tower sooner or later, to deal with the several prophecies/dreams/visions/foretellings that state he will face the Amyrlin. Ebou Dar, to me, has no further potential other than an apparent meeting between Rand and the &quot;Dot9M&quot;.<br /><br />After all, how easy, and how climactic, will it be for Rand to arrive for a bargain, only to be overpowered, becomes leashed with the sad bracelet, than be wisked away to the White Tower, and be turned into a circle of 13. It's been 10 books and so far the greatest threat - being turned to the shadow against one's will - has never been an actual danger to anybody. That will also bring the Tower Ajahs against Elaida and for Egwene faster than anything else. And not only that, but I maintain that being whisked in the box in Lord of Chaos and saved before he could actually arrive at the White Tower is a HUGE hint on Rand being captured again and NOT being saved before arriving.


created: 2005-02-03 17:38:49
subject: <b>A Little suspicious</b>
body:
Some thing to remember is that Rand has with him two people who know that the High lady Suroth  is a dark friend. I think it very unlikly that he would be able or wna't to sneek way from ether of them without mentioning who he is of to see. Now if they don't tell him what they know than they're just be ing stupid. Aditionaly by this point rand cn probably recognise all of the original Forsaken on sight, and Simarhage does not apear to be disguising herself. this pluss his already suspicious nature will probably make catching him more than a little dificult.


created: 2005-09-07 00:01:19
subject: <b>I like</b>
body:
This is a great theory, well supported. I thought for a long time that Mat was going to head away to get on with saving Moiraine and meet up with Rand elsewhere, but it makes more sense for Rand to meet Mat in Ebou Dar.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sister to Nossy<br />Shot swapper with a_fan <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br />Bonded to Phil Reborn and Sidious<br />&quot;Mommies are like wizards&quot; ~ CVH <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br />The fact that I don't agree with you in no way means I didn't understand you.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-01-24 19:38:36
subject: <b>Nicely done</b>
body:
but it still doesn't sway me...I have my own feelings about who killed him, and until they are proven false, I will still hold onto them.<br /><br />Grendael did it.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Shadar Aiel<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />One by one the seals shatter and break.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" />Pace by pace the darkness shall advance<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" />&#8216;till only those Dedicated to the Shadow remain.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-01-24 19:55:30
subject: <b>Rand wasn't close enough to sense Saidin?</b>
body:
This is just one of many mistakes you've made.  Rand was in fact very close, almost directly above the murder scene at the time of the murder. <br /><br />I would advise that you take the time to go back and reread this passage.<br /><br />Columbo is on the case!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2005-01-24 20:34:37
subject: <b>Colombo</b>
body:
Yep that seems to be too far for men, especially if they aren't on the alert for channelling. Men are nowhere near as sensitive as women when it comes to feeling another man channel.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> Linda Sedai <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Proud member of the Embroiderer's Guild of the White Tower<br /><br /><b><font color="red">FAQ admin</font></b> </font>'cos the FAQ is where it's at.<br /><br /><b>Currently working on:</b> my 70th FAQ<p><a href="http://13depository.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">The thirteenth depository : A Wheel of Time blog</a></p><p></p>


created: 2005-01-24 20:50:56
subject: <b>He's certainly a leading suspect in my eyes....</b>
body:
I just used much the same arguments as you, on the MB a few days ago. A lot of people fail to mention that Graendal herself first says:<br />&quot;For myself, I think Lews Therin killed them.&quot; (Asmo, Moggy and Lanfear)<br />It is after that statement by her when Sammael makes his own statement: &quot;I would kill him if he could find him.&quot;<br /><br />It's as if they were both feeling each other out on the matter, IMO. Her words appear designed to deny she did it, while probing to see if <i>he</i> did. <i>Or</i>, it could be to see if Sammael knows <i>she</i> did it.<br /><br />Sammael OTOH, doesn't really deny killing him, instead he simply says he would if he could. (Very ambiguous, IMO.) <br /><br />(One of the things that people often forget is the Forsaken's penchant for lying to each other. Sammael and Graendal especially play head-games with each other.)<br /><br />Another point that often gets thrown around is they assume Sammael was waiting in Illian for Rand's attack. Moggy told Nynaeve that they were trying to lure Rand into attacking him, however, she doesn't say that it is actually happening on that day, or that it was even imminent. Nynaeve certainly didn't take it that way. She thought she should get word to Rand ASAP, but figured the earliest she could do it would be that evening via TAR and Egwene. (The point being that she didn't panic that the message would be too late.)<br /><br />Basically, there is no reason to believe Sammael or Graendal were waiting in Illian on that day. In fact, Graendal was supposed to meet Moggy IIRC, who didn't show up for obvious reasons. The big questions are: what time was that meeting to take place, and how long did Graendal wait for her to show up?<br /><br />Anyway, good theory! Thumbs up from me!<br /><br /><br /><br /> <br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2005-01-24 21:48:50
subject: <b>Very interesting.</b>
body:
The WOTFAQ is very quick to disregard Sammael.  While there is not a lot of actual proof for your theory, the circumstantial evidence does add up to a nice conclusion, with fewer holes in it than the case for Lanfear OR Graendal.  Also, RJ says that only one person has written in the correct answer, and Sammael is not a common suspect.<br /><br />I do have two major problems with the theory.  First, IIRC, the scene where you say Sammael lies about Asmo, Sammy is extremely angry.  This is the scene where Sammael starts cursing and says it's a weakness of his, and I believe that the anger is genuine.  This is a Sammy POV, and we see his anger is reality.<br /><br />Second, at the end of FOH, when RJ says we should be able to figure the murder out, the cases for Graendal and Sammael are pretty much equal.  Both <i>could</i> have done it and there wasn't much saying that they <i>didn't</i> do it.  Also, RJ says that we should be able to figure it out by the end of POD.  There is nothing for or against Sammael in POD.  And if we can't trust RJ, then who can we trust?<br /><br />Again, mostly circumstantial evidence, but it adds up to a formidable conclusion.  If somebody can answer some of my problems, Sammael might just be pushed up to a leading suspect in my mind.


created: 2005-01-25 00:12:08
subject: <b>I don't get the title.</b>
body:
How is this a case <i>against</i> Sammael?<br /><br />Anyway, Sammael always <i>did</i> seem the most obvious candidate, although I like Columbo's theory about Lanfear. Anyway, it all makes sense, and when you add in that the murderer's identity should be found before <i>A Path of Daggers</i>, where Sammael died, it seems pretty probable.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>War must be, while we defend our lives against a destroyer who would devour all; but I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend</i><br />~Faramir</font><p></p>


created: 2005-01-25 04:00:59
subject: <b>Don't think so</b>
body:
Though it's possible that Sammael seems to be a better suspect for the murder than Graendal at the time of Asmo's death.<br /><br />I don't see Sammael going to Caemlyn, walking through the palace without any disguise if he was spying there (he even wears a disguise when he negotiates with the Shaido). <br /><br />It's often said that Sammael is strong in defense, but not an attacker. <br />And as we see in the series and as you quoted, if Sammael wants someone dead, he sends Shadowspawn to achieve it, but he doesn't confront e.g. Rand directly.<br /><br />Therefore a murder by his hands doesn't fit with Sammael's character (though he might have sent Slayer..). <br /><br />Also note Sammael's question to Lanfear in TFoH, prologue:<br />&quot;If you were close enough to him to know all of this, why did you leave him alive? You could have killed him before he knew you were there.&quot;<br /><br />It implies that now the chance is away to be close to Asmo and easily kill him.<br /><br />Furthermore, why would Sammael balefire Asmo, so that the DO didn't get any informations?<br /><br />Finally, nothing in Sammael's PoV in LoC, ch.6, actually indicates that he is faking his anger, or in fact knows of Asmo's fate and is just manipulating Graendal (contrary to LoC, ch.23).<br /><br />In LoC, ch.23, where he forces Graendal (maybe due to a kind of Compulsion?) to tell him her informations, it is shown again, that Sammael is still interested in Asmo's whereabouts:<br />&quot;I am sure I know what Demandred is scheming, but where is he hiding? Where is Semirhage? Mesaana? What about Asmodean and Lanfear? Moghedien?&quot;'<br /><br />All in all, I have to disagree, most likely Sammael wasn't the killer.<br />


created: 2005-01-25 05:50:11
subject: <b>I like it</b>
body:
I think you did a great job in the presentation.  I read the other comments and the only other person (person?) that I thought it could be would be Slayer.  I don't think Slayer can use the OP and Asmo - got balefired.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="blue">Bondholder of Neroto Yoduff &amp; TEO<br />Sce`c of Nicodemus26 The Mighty Midget<br />Ambassador Isa ~ The Rebel Blue!<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /></font></font><p></p>


created: 2005-01-25 10:30:06
subject: <b>One thing I don't agree with</b>
body:
Men are at least equally sensitive to detecting the channeling of saidin. It has been shown on several occasions like when Asmodean detects Rand's gateway holding weave , and when Rand detects Sammael weaving in their final duel.<br /><br />They may be more sensitive.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">A One Power researcher<br />Defender of Lanfear<br />Grand Ninja-Nae'blis to be feared <br />Original Warder to Isa <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br />New Warder to Nossie <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />Toy to Seriana <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/winky.gif" border="0" /><br />Mystified by a Fan <br />Bonded Phelix - I was young, it happened so fast.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-01-25 12:58:58
subject: <b>Very nice presentation, Linda</b>
body:
Personally, I think that Sammael makes a much better candidate than Graendal.  Lanfear is perhaps the most absurd suspect in my mind, while Slayer is somewhere in between.  In any case, my favorite suspect is Mesaana.  If she is masquerading as Berelain, Asmodean could cause her some major problems.  Berelain's letter at the end of TFoH shows that she is closing in on Cairhien, and it would make sense for Mesaana to scout out the scene before arriving in her Berelain persona.  Seeing Asmo, she waited for the opportunity to remove him.  However, I could be totally wrong in my assertions, and Sammael makes a better secondary suspect than most.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Diomedes <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-01-25 13:10:31
subject:
<b>I disagree with sidious' disagreement... <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /></b>

body:
This is from Rahvin's pov when Sammael comes to Caemlyn in tFoH prologue:<br />&quot;He had clearer warning this time-it was male work-as another gateway opened....&quot;<br /><br />Rahvin is holding saidin, and he easily feels the weave of Sammael's gateway, which we know takes a considerable amount of strength to even make. (A lot of the AS can't make one at all, and others only a small hole large enough to stick a hand through.)<br /><br />When Rand blocked open Avi's gateway, he reacted quickly and powerfully in a desperate attempt to not lose her. Asmo was able to feel this because Rand had to use so much of the Power to accomplish this phenomenal feat. (Asmo was amazed that Rand could even do it, and lists only a few others that he knows were able to do the same thing.) One reason it's probably so difficult: Gateways resist staying open and must be constantly powered or tied off. Once released they immediately snap shut. It would take an extreme effort to block one once it started closing. <br /><br />This is from FoH prologue:<br />&quot;Linked to saidin as tightly as Rahvin - this close Rahvin could feel it, dimly - Sammael eyed him warily.&quot;<br /><br />In this instance, these two powerful Forsaken are standing right next to each other, both holding saidin tightly, but Rahvin barely feels Sammael. <br /><br />I appears there may be some discrepency between these two separate events, but then again, maybe not. We have often seen Rand sensing gateways or weaves being formed, but these are always when Rand is holding saidin and the other person is actively channeling. But when he was looking for Sammael in Illian and Shadar Logoth both, he couldn't feel him in-between weaves. (And I think it safe to assume Sammael wouldn't release saidin in the middle of a battle. Rand certainly never does, nor does he worry about being located that way.) <i>Only when the other person is channeling can one sense the direction from which the weaves originated</i>. The farther away from the channeling, and if you aren't holding saidin yourself, the more powerful the weave would need to be, in order to be sensed. (Like Asmo feeling the blocked gateway.)<br /><br />In Caemlyn, we have no evidence to show, nor reason to believe, that Rand was holding saidin when Asmo was killed. His senses wouldn't have been heightened to the point of feeling a weak weave from another part of the palace, IMO. And by this time, we have already seen Rand use a minute amount of the Power to make a finger-thin weave of balefire.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2005-01-25 16:15:22
subject: <b>Could be</b>
body:
If Sammael did balefire Asmodean, Asmo would have ceased to exist before he was killed.  Therefore, no need to balefire him and no balefire to be sensed.


created: 2005-01-25 17:23:26
subject: <b>Thanks Linda...</b>
body:
This is a much needed theory. In my recent 'research' into Asmodean (that some of you are aware of), Sammael keeps coming up as a top suspect. Basically, there is the same amount of evidence supporting that he did as there is that supports Graendal, and his conversation with her is always used to say that he didn't do it - the problem is that essentially everything that Sammael does and says in that conversation is a lie. I've always figured he was fairly unlikely since Rand should be able to sense it, but it is becoming fairly clear that men don't sense one another near as well as women do. Sammael should be at very closely.<br /><br />Etzel - you made me laugh<br /><br /><b>Therefore a murder by his hands doesn't fit with Sammael's character (though he might have sent Slayer..). <br /></b><br /><br />I love the contradiction in this statement. I know what you are saying here, but it just makes me laugh.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Need a book to read - check out my blog for ideas.</font><p><a href="http://nethspace.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">Neth Space</a></p><p></p>


created: 2005-01-27 10:25:04
subject: <b>You make a good case</b>
body:
I must admit, I am getting more and more confused about who killed Asmo.  I also do not care as much as I used to.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />  I think it comes down to either Sammael or Graendal.  I see no way that it could be Lanfear, and it seems a hard intro for Slayer.  The ony other character I like is Taim.  The arguments about Rand not feeling Sammael channel apply equally to Taim.  He does make a timely entry right afterwards.  The strongest argument aginst him is that we do not know that Asmo would recognize him.  That is why I think it is one of the other Forsaken that basically got the jump on Asmo in a suprise situation.  Sammael is as good as any, and better than most.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">May you be successful  in all your projects.<br /><br />I am a pastafarion.  The Flying Spaghetti Monster created the universe, and no one in Kansas can prove me wrong.<br /><br />http://www.vengaza.org</font><p></p>


created: 2005-01-27 11:23:56
subject:
<b>Good that I made you laugh, kcf! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /></b>

body:
<b> I love the contradiction in this statement. I know what you are saying here, but it just makes me laugh. </b><br /><br />Yeah, my point was that I don't see Sammael as a sneaking, spying, assassin Forsaken, who would enter the territory of an enemy who is as powerful as he is, but as someone who would rather send a killer/spy to do the deed.<br /><br />In my view this is supported by Sammael's acts &amp; comments in the books.


created: 2005-01-27 22:52:14
subject: <b>Etzel hit the nail on the head!</b>
body:
Sammy doesn't fit the profile, the show stops their.<br /><br />Sammy didn't do it.  Maybe the man with one arm?<br /><br />Columbo is on the case!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">'Omne ignotum pro magnifico'</font><p></p>


created: 2005-01-27 23:13:39
subject: <b>What case?</b>
body:
You really have no evidence that Sammael did kill Asmodean; you merely have explanations that he could be a suspect in spite of the numerous attempts to discount him.<br /><br />And I am fairly sure that Jordan will tell us who the murderer is as part of the setup fort something huge that is looming . . . .


created: 2005-01-28 00:12:06
subject: <b>Actually, Sammael is the most obvious to a casual observer.</b>
body:
After all, he's been the one doing everything nasty to Rand in the last few books. And as I said, the fact that we're supposed to get all the clues we can get by the time Sammael leaves the game seems to support this as well.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>War must be, while we defend our lives against a destroyer who would devour all; but I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend</i><br />~Faramir</font><p></p>


created: 2005-01-28 12:51:31
subject: <b>Could be</b>
body:
I agree with you that Sammael could have done it. But my favourite is Ishamael.<br /><br />&quot;RJ has said that we should be able to figure it out by the end of POD. There is nothing for or against Sammael in POD. And if we can't trust RJ, then who can we trust?&quot;<br />This could just be an Aes Sedai truth. After you have finished POD, you should have found the evidence in ACOS, or LOC.<br />


created: 2005-01-28 14:43:45
subject: <b>This is an opinion...</b>
body:
not a case.  You did not include a single shred of evidence to back up your points.  All in all, as improbable as it may seem, it was probably Lanfear.


created: 2005-01-29 11:02:49
subject: <b>Nothing to really add...</b>
body:
IMO it's either Sammael or Graendal that killed Asmo. It was just nice to see a theory that explained why Sammy should be the logical choice. I'm looking forward to seeing kcf's revised theory on this topic.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>Founding member of the ASI</b><br /><br /><b>TP ADMIN</b><br /><br /><b>Simon</b><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-01-29 17:37:10
subject: <b>Don't think so either ...</b>
body:
Here's a full reply this time as opposed to my comment on saidin. I see Light refuted it but I'm composing my counter-strike and then I'll deal with him <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />I don't agree with Sammael as a potential assassin at all and several of the reasons have been covered by Etzel and others. Here are some points...<br /><br />I think it is a weak argument to say that balefire was used because no body was found. While I agree that his last words hinted at a very sudden death , it could have been as quick as Cyndane's termination of the noble addressing her. The Forsaken have clearly shown their fierce apprehension to use balefire and compare it to the terror of the Choedan Kal. They only use it in dire need and not frivolously like Rand. They could have killed Asmodean and taken him away through a gateway or even consumed him in fire like Moiraine did to Merean. <br /><br />The best reason for balefire to be used was that the channeler was surprised that Asmodean walked in on them in the wine cellar. No body except Lanfear knows that he was shielded and would assume that he was at his previous strength. This would perhaps force most of the Forsaken to use balefire rather than get into a battle with an equal strength.<br /><br />Secondly , I find it unlikely that saidin was used. It was either a non-channeler or a female. While Rand might not sense a weave across the palace , we know that Asmodean could sense it from that proximity. None of the Forsaken were camping in a wine cellar , I assure you. They were either just entering through a gateway or about to create one. Either way he would have sensed saidin and not entered that room. He is no fool.<br /><br />Thirdly , Sammael's comments cannot easily construed as a diversion easily. If so , what is preventing us from doing the same with the other Forsaken? Graendal is clearly the most suspicious of the Forsaken because just after Sammael asks her where Asmodean is in LOC , she tells him that Asmodean is dead. She is the only Forsaken who has definitively stated his death and never mentioned an element of doubt. She could not even send a darkfriend to discover this because none of the Forsaken bar Lanfear knew who he was disguised as. While he may have no disguise , what command is Graendal going to give &quot;Send me any reports on a man who spends a lot of time around the DR&quot;. Clearly she knows that he is dead because she went to palace , identified him when she was discovered and killed him.<br /><br />As Etzel says , Sammael does not fit into the profile of the assassin. He doesn't come in person to the palace and spy and no one will convince me otherwise. He was a military general and knew danger when he saw it. He would not go to a palace filled with two channelers of his strength and near to one another. He would be killed himself. I can think of no good reason for Sammael to be in that store room. <br /><br />Graendal on the other hand has nothing to fear from Rand. As a woman she could bring half the palace down without any threat from Rand. Who is going to challenge her? Egwene? Aviendha? Moiraine? Thus spying is more probable in her case and more akin to her nature.<br /><br />The best reason for Sammael to be the killer is that he was part of the four ,as you said. When Lanfear and Rahvin died and the plan collapsed , it was the final straw for him and he decided a strike was in order. Although , this is my chief motivation for Graendal.<br /><br />Nice theory btw <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">A One Power researcher<br />Defender of Lanfear<br />Grand Ninja-Nae'blis to be feared <br />Original Warder to Isa <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br />New Warder to Nossie <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />Toy to Seriana <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/winky.gif" border="0" /><br />Mystified by a Fan <br />Bonded Phelix - I was young, it happened so fast.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-01-29 20:39:31
subject: <b>To supplement the above remarks:</b>
body:
1) Men are not as good as women at detecting channeling.  Every available source (Encyclopaedia WoT, the WOTFAQ, Jordan interviews) says this.  Instances where men sense channeling from far away always involve large amounts of the Power or someone setting off a ward.<br /><br />2) We don't know how far Asmodean was from Rand or Aviendha when he was killed.  He could have wandered half-way across the palace during his PoV, or he could have only gone a few yards.  So I don't think distance can be used to argue either way about Rand/Aviendha's ability to sense the killer channeling.<br /><br />3) Just because the Dark One didn't order the murder doesn't mean that the True Power can't have been used.  We know that the Dark One's &quot;permission&quot; is required to use the TP, but we don't know how that permission is acquired or how far in advance you need to get it.  It's possible that the &quot;permission&quot; is a one-time deal, after which you can use the TP as much as want (provided you're willing to pay the price).  Personally, I don't think the TP would have been needed for this particular killing, but I also don't think it can be so easily ruled out.<br /><br />4) It's stated in TFoH that Sammael is extremely paranoid and only attacks when he's sure of victory (or at least sure that he can easily escape).  His potshots at Rand outside Cairhien (assuming that was him) are a perfect example--he waits until his enemy is out in the open and distracted, strikes out from a safe vantage point, and then bolts before his enemy can retaliate.  He's not the kind of guy to sneak into enemy territory (without a disguise, no less) when there are two powerful channelers nearby.  The only Forsaken who have exhibited this kind of behavior are Lanfear and possibly Graendal.<br /><br />5) If Sammael killed Asmodean, how could that fact possibly be revealed in the books now that he's dead?  Unless the DO somehow knows (and he might not; he isn't omniscient), there isn't anybody currently alive who would know that he did it.


created: 2005-01-30 13:47:42
subject: <b>Sammael did it</b>
body:
Least I think so.  I think the phrase, 'intuitively obvious' might have been largely misinterpreted.  If you put the stress on 'intuitively' instead of 'obvious', the meaning changes subtly.<br /><br />Sammael is the instinctive choice. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sammy.gif" border="0" />!


created: 2005-01-30 18:48:10
subject: <b>Additionally</b>
body:
Tel Janin Aelinsar, the most renowned athlete of the Age of Legends and a blademaster, could also very easily kill in an instant without the One Power, which none of the other Forsaken suspects could do.  He would have easily done this bloodlessly and disposed of the body afterwards, there are plenty of ways and I'm sure he'd have made a point of knowing them all.  After all Graendal says he always liked the more violent games.


created: 2005-01-30 21:45:09
subject: <b>I have to disagree</b>
body:
Look, I've never understood the confusion. When I read TFoH I &quot;intuitively&quot; thought &quot;Graendal&quot;. Now I been reading the series since 1991, and there were always a couple of things that seemed obvious to me, some of which were just plain stupid, but others that I didn't have to think hard on to understand. This is one of them.<br /><br />In Chapter 54 To Caemlyn, when Nynaeve traps Moggie, Moggie confesses the plot to trap Rand by four other Chosen [the term Forsaken is politically incorrect don't you think <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> ]. Now at that time Lanfear was gone to Creator, unkown to Moggie. But she plainly states that The Plan is for Rand to be goaded into attacking Sammael, then the other three or &quot;At least, he will find Graendal and Rhavin&quot; will take him from the rear. So in my mind Graendal and Rhavin was an unconcious couplet.<br /><br />Anyway Rands gates to Caemlyn, offs Rhavin with the help of Nynaeve &amp; Moggie, Graendal was no-where to be seen - why? I don't know, but at the time I just assumed that Graendal would be with Rhavin - were we told not 20 mins before that they were together - and I then assumed she either bolted or hid.<br /><br />Now I never thought too deeply when at the end of book Asmo gets topped that it would be anyone else BUT Graendal.  Why, because as I said I just thought that she could have been hiding, Asmo comes across someone he knows - obviously one of the Forsaken - damn! I mean Chosen and gets wiped for his troubles. For me it all fit without too much thought.<br /><br />I have enjoyed the years of theories in the meantime but nothing has changed the gut-feeling that Graendal did it.<br /><br />Mind you I have been very wrong in the past - subscribing to the &quot;Taimandred&quot; and &quot;Bela is not the Creator&quot; theories have both cost me dearly. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />I don't think that there's much more point in trying to frame someone else for the murder.


created: 2005-01-31 00:10:49
subject: <b>To 50-Cilverpenny</b>
body:
I don't agree with you.<br /><br />Sammael may have been a blademaster , but so was Be'lal and we have seen Ishamael and Slayer using steel effectively.<br /><br />Besides this , do you really think that Sammael would attack a channeler of great strength like Asmodean with a sword? It would be suicide. Any of the Forsaken would have instantly struck out with the Power if surprised by another Forsaken - like Graendal did to Cyndane and Moghedien.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">A One Power researcher<br />Defender of Lanfear<br />Grand Ninja-Nae'blis to be feared <br />Original Warder to Isa <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br />New Warder to Nossie <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />Toy to Seriana <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/winky.gif" border="0" /><br />Mystified by a Fan <br />Bonded Phelix - I was young, it happened so fast.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-01-31 05:59:05
subject: <b>The Forsaken meetings</b>
body:
We see in the meeting between the four Forsaken in TFoH, prologue, that Rahvin is quite familiar with Sammael.<br /><br />Rahvin considers:<br />&quot;Sammael's way had always been armies and conquest; he would not go near Lews Therin, even reborn as a shepherd, until he was sure of victory.&quot;<br /><br />There is no reason to believe that Rahvin is wrong, and Sammael would go near Rand &amp; Asmo.<br /><br />Lanfear says that Sammael often faced LTT and always lost, which stresses that Sammael would not dare to go near Rand, but rather send killers (as he does in the series).<br /><br />Then in the meeting TFoH, ch.34, Sammael still expresses his fear that Rand will come to him in Illian, even if three other Forsaken will help him:<br />'&quot;No one names me coward,&#8221; he said harshly. &#8220;But if we continue as we are, he will come straight for my throat.&quot;'<br /><br />Therefore Sammael was surely glad that the original plan was spoiled, and certainly wouldn't Travel to Rand instead.<br /><br />What may speak for Sammael are basically points which would apply to almost every Forsaken.<br />But if you consider then all the counter-arguments which were brought up, it is obviously very unlikely that Sammael was the killer.<br />


created: 2005-01-31 11:59:58
subject: <b>To sidious</b>
body:
I didn't say he used a sword, I said he killed him with his bare hands.  There's lots of ways.  Bridge of the nose, the throat, finger in the eye, it wouldn't be that hard to kill a pussy like asmodean instantly.  My point wasn't that sammael didn't use the power, simply that he's the only forsaken who didn't -HAVE- to use the power.<br /><br />On a somewhat related note, why is slayer even a suspect?  This has probably been posted before but, slayer?  asmodean?  know each other?  weak sauce...I'm sure someone has an explanation that will make it a viable option though <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />


created: 2005-01-31 16:47:47
subject: <b>inutitively obvious explained...</b>
body:
hows this for obvious?<br />i did it!<br />nuff said!<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> let the speedbart ride again upon the winds of time <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Made the second post on the new WoTMB2 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-01-31 16:52:07
subject: <b>on a slightly more serious note...</b>
body:
great theory, you really argued the case well, but i must say i still suspect it was graendal...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> let the speedbart ride again upon the winds of time <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Made the second post on the new WoTMB2 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-02-01 18:05:41
subject: <b>Well, you have provided the Forsaken...</b>
body:
who hired Slayer. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />His case appears better than Grendal`s, IMO.<br /><br />Also, I don`t think balefire was used, but rather Asmodean`s body was whisked away into TAR, after being knifed.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2005-02-05 11:01:03
subject: <b>It's not Sammael</b>
body:
Apart from the points mentioned from others, RJ has apparently said that there were some clues about Asmo's murderer in POD and since Sammael was death or at least not appearing in this book, I don't see how these clues would be in his favor. Plus, I don't buy that he could manipulate Graendal, she was the one who manipulated him all along:<br /><br />(Greandal's POV)<br />&quot;Still, Rand al&#8217;Thor had to be removed, but it would be Sammael who earned the blame. If he realized that he had been aimed at Rand al&#8217;Thor like dornat set to hunt, she would be very much surprised. No, not man to recognize subtleties.&quot;<br /><br />She was the only one sure that Lanfear and Asmo were dead but wasn't that sure about Moghedien. She was the one who dared to enter into Illian's palace after Rand had captured it so logically she is much more likely to have done that in Caemlyn, too, rather than the paranoid Sammael, who at the time was supposed to wait for Rand in Illian. Even if Sammael somehow had learned very quickly of Rahvin's death, why would he go to Caemlyn when Rand could decide on the same day to attack him, too? Sammael would rather fight in his stronghold than in Caemlyn.<br />In his own POV after he said that  Sammael notices his trembling hand:<br /><br />&quot;Sammael&#8217;s hand trembled with anger, nearly slopping punch from his goblet before he could still it.&quot;<br /><br />I guess he knew he was just a character, that's why he hid his thoughts so well and even described himself as extremely angry (and we know that he is a bad actor and a man who was very easy to anger). <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> He gets angry again in the same chapter - was he pretending again? Face it, when the topic has anything to do with Rand or Lews Therin, Sammmael is very prone to such outbursts. I see no reason why we shouldn't believe the one in which he doubted that Asmo was dead wasn't genuine.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Fanatic-Templar of the Order of Cadsuane Haters</font><p></p>


created: 2005-04-05 18:28:15
subject: <b>Clues since ACOS don't relate to Sammael.</b>
body:
They cast doubt on the other suspects as killers.<br /><br />I don't see why people claim that Sammael's continuing anger over Asmodean proved that he didn't do it. Anyone who is angry enough with someone to kill them can still have that anger afterwards. It is part of their justification for killing them. Sammael was absolutely furious with Asmodean for teaching Rand and aiding the Light. Furious enough to kill him, and furious enough to still be angry afterwards at the thought of ASmo's aid to Rand. There's irony in this, since Sammael is angry at a traitor and yet was himself a traitor who turned from the Light to the Shadow. It is often those who are guilty of the same offence themselves who are the harshest critics of these failings in others. It seems to provide extra fuel for their anger, as it has here, and extra justification in Sammael's mind for killing Asmo.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> Linda Sedai <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Proud member of the Embroiderer's Guild of the White Tower<br /><br /><b><font color="red">FAQ admin</font></b> </font>'cos the FAQ is where it's at.<br /><br /><b>Currently working on:</b> my 70th FAQ<p><a href="http://13depository.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">The thirteenth depository : A Wheel of Time blog</a></p><p></p>


created: 2006-11-29 10:52:51
subject: <b>...</b>
body:
My hubbie, who loves watching the History Channel shows about battles and military stuff, just finished reading tFoH.  He knew before starting that someone would be killed and it would be &quot;intuitively obvious&quot; at the time of the murder (because I've been grumbling about it for years).  When he finished the book, I asked him what he thought and without a pause he said &quot;Sammael&quot;.  Why?  Because we'd been told a few times that Sammael attacks the flanks and we'd already seen him go after Mat (Rand's support) unsuccessfully and use darkhounds to check on Asmo (Rand's teacher).  I'd never even considered Sammael, and I do think Rand would have at least have felt him Gate in unless the True Power was used.<br />This theory makes a good case for Sammael, but I'm still not sure I buy it.  I'm on the Lanfear bandwagon, myself.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /> Survivor of Historical Inquizition ... barely <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Who can say if I've been changed for the better, but because I knew you I have been changed for good -- Wicked<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-01-25 04:20:44
subject: <b>good thinking!</b>
body:
I agree but I don&#180;t think Mat really broke any of his promises! If that is the case we would have noticed that in a pow. In the pow where mat decides to go out looking for Oliver, the choice is about letting the women participate or not. He alrady made it quite clear not to abandon Oliver!<br /><br />Lord Stone


created: 2005-01-25 06:03:55
subject: <b>It was enjoyable reading</b>
body:
but is it a good thing or bad thing that he who never breaks a promise is made to break one - I guess I still don't understand it - I thought he died when he was hung from the tree - has that been disproven?  After the wall falls on him, the next time we see him he is limping and his leg is in pretty bad shape.  Don't you think if he died when the wall fell he would be in worse shape than that?  Guess you do since you indicate that something major happened in his life - <br /><br />I think the pattern was set when he decided to go find the boy, not when the wall fell.  <br /><br />I'm not disagreeing with you, something major happened, I just still don't know what it was.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="blue">Bondholder of Neroto Yoduff &amp; TEO<br />Sce`c of Nicodemus26 The Mighty Midget<br />Ambassador Isa ~ The Rebel Blue!<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /></font></font><p></p>


created: 2005-01-25 07:13:56
subject: <b>Interesting</b>
body:
Yes but if it wasn't for Rand, then he never would have been in Maerone with his Band and so never would have met Olver. And if it wasn't for being ta'veren Olver never would have gone to check on him after the Aiel and thus Mat never would have discovered him and so wouldn't have been a father-figure to him.<br /><br />Yeesh, Mat was right. No matter how you boil it, it always comes down to being ta'veren or Rand.


created: 2005-01-25 08:45:59
subject: <b>Interesting interpretation</b>
body:
If I understand correctly, you're suggesting Mat ultimately decided between Elayne and Teslyn? If that's the case, then I don't think I can agree. <br /><br />I thought the dream, or at least Egwene's understanding of it, was that Mat weighed the two Aes Sedai against each other, and had to decide on one. In your scenario, the other Aes Sedai, Teslyn, doesn't even come into the picture until much later. While he did make a decision in regards to Elayne, there is nothing to &quot;balance out&quot; another AS on those scales when he made it.<br /><br />If I am misunderstanding you, perhaps you could explain further. For myself, I think the dream-vision hasn't came up yet. IMO, it will most likely be Mat deciding to go back to Elayne, who is in deep trouble in Caemlyn, or going to help Egwene who has problems of her own. Those two represent <i>&quot;two Aes Sedai on a huge set of balance scales&quot;</i>, much better. (meaning the Aes  Sedai must be larger than life, at least figuratively speaking.)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2005-01-25 15:35:37
subject: <b>Yep</b>
body:
It was the balefire when Mat &quot;Died and lived again&quot;. I believe Robert Jordan himself even confirmed it. Think about it, Mat did NOT die when he was hung, and he did NOT die when he got hit by the bricks, but Rand saw him DEAD in Caemlyn and brought him back to LIFE.<br /><br />Anyway... I have to agree with whoever posted above. Teslyn's whole problem had not come into effect until book nine, when she was made Damane... So your theory either has me lost or is completely off...


created: 2005-01-25 19:47:04
subject: <b>Agree and disagree</b>
body:
Interesting theory.  On the one hand, I agree that Teslyn/Joline was most assuredly not the &quot;Balance scale&quot; decision.   As you point out, no dice, and since he rescued both of them, he never decided between them.  Is this theory of T/J really all that popular?<br /><br />On the other hand, I'm unconvinced that Olver is an integral part of Mat's &quot;balance scale&quot; decision either.  He's not a channeler (yet, who knows his future).  Olver's role, in my eyes, up until now, has been to help Mat mature into someone who cares about people who are neither female nor from the Two Rivers.  His feelings towards Olver are positively paternal.  Certainly Mat would be aghast if anyone were to point this out to him, but sure enough, he &quot;loves&quot; Olver as much as anyone loves a child whom they care for and/or teach.  When you give that much to someone, love is a natural consequence.  It's not romantic, it's paternal.<br /><br />Anyway.  That in itself is a major turning point for Mat.  As for the brick wall, as said above, he didn't die, he was seriously injured.  Thing is, it kept him in Ebou Dar long enough to meet Tuon and THAT was important.  This was the all-important preamble.  Sure, Olver played a role by being Olver, Mat's foster son.  But this wasn't decision time.<br /><br />I rather like the idea (Eztel's?  can't remember, and I only just read it!) that the decision is between Elayne, who he promised to protect, and Egwene, who he loves as a sister (I think, maybe there is indeed a touch of romance, but it's very subtle).<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Live as if you were living for the second time and had acted as wrongly the first time as you are about to act now.  -VF</font><p></p>


created: 2005-01-26 21:02:17
subject: <b>Not Egwene and Elayne</b>
body:
First of all, interesting theory, Shadar Aiel. I am afraid that I also disagree, however, with the implication that this sequence has to do with the scales.<br /><br />As for the comments by Light in the Night and Comet Sedai, I very much doubt that it was Elayne and Egwene, as it was in Egwene's dream, and Egwene would have at least had some hint as to the identity if it had been herself and Elayne.<br /><br />There is a comment that it was a huge set of balance scales, so the aes sedai had to be huge. This is wrong. A set of balance scales large enough to hold people comfortably would seem huge.<br /><br />A few possibilities come to mind as to how it has/will be fulfilled. One is whether Mat goes to help Moiraine or helps another aes sedai instead, leaving Thom without his knowledge of the 'Finns. Another is Mat being given suggestions by two of the aes sedai with him, and he has to decide which suggestion to take.<br /><br />One of the key factors of the dream is that the world, or something close to it, depended on his decision. This implies that if he decided the wrong way, something bad will happen, maybe they will lose the last battle. Unless it satisfies this criterion, the dream will not have been satisfied.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Asmodean is alive and posing as Sammael!<br /><br />Sammael <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sammy.gif" border="0" /> is Sparticus.<br /><br />No, I'm Sparticus! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /> = <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />I'm Herid Fel Reborn!!!!! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shy.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-01-27 22:46:09
subject: <b>Re: Aielyn</b>
body:
You could be right that Moiraine might be one of the AS from the dream. We know from Min's pov that she has seen that she does have a role to play of some significance.<br /><br />My thoughts went more along the lines that Mat was supposed to stay with Elayne, as this theory pointed out, and it's at least possible that the decision he will face does involve her in some way.<br /><br />My thoughts on Egwene stem from the contents of Moiraine's letter to Thom. This info could very well be needed to depose Elaida, and put the AS fully behind Egwene as Amyrlin.<br /><br />The real problem deciphering this dream could well be that we won't even realize when it was actually fulfilled by the end of the story. (Look at the debate about when Mat died and lived again, for example.) Mat may have to make several decisions regarding which direction to go, and it may well be impossible to figure out which one of those decisions is the one the dream foretold.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2005-01-29 15:58:46
subject: <b>Some interesting food for thought</b>
body:
I also believe that Egwene's Dream means something else than the rescue of the AS in Ebou Dar.<br /><br />The balance scale image is seen in the Prophecies about Mat and his eye as well. <br />In the &quot;half the light of the world&quot; prophecy is also said that Mat will save the world.<br /><br />Therefore it makes sense that all these prophecies are connected.<br />Since Mat didn't risk or give up an eye (or half the light of the world) in the rescue, it has to be something else.    <br /><br />Mat has to decide between two AS and the world might depend on his decision.<br /><br />I agree with Aielyn that it would be strange if Egwene and Elayne were represented by the two AS in the Dream, and like the idea that one AS could be Moiraine (though who is the second then?). <br /><br />Another idea could be that Mat has to choose between two counsels, if he trust and follows the advice from a &quot;normal&quot; AS (which would lead to the losing of an eye, but saves the world) or the advice from a BA (which would doom the world).


created: 2005-01-31 08:21:17
subject: <b>Good reasoning</b>
body:
The connection between the Scale and the Dice in the head is especially strong argument. The best in it is that it doesn't mean that choice between the two AS on the scale would have as result only doing something immediately to this AS. Because the dice in the heaqd mean choice of a way that will lead to the destiny LATER. Dice in the head are completing a prerequisite for something later to happen. And such do-now-for-something-different-later is a pattern in Mat's fate until now. So Mat's scales can be Elayne and Teslyn, but the fate of the world that Mat's choice destined would be not the immediate consequence of rescuing Teslyn, but some far reaching consequences of choosing the way, consequences having nothing to do with Teslyn, but rather with the conditions for Mat to meet Tuon. It's Mat's fate to meet Tuon and marry her, but they could meet under another circumstances and their marriage would have another consequences.


created: 2005-01-31 21:52:46
subject: <b>No.</b>
body:
<blockquote>Mat, weighing two Aes Sedai on a huge set of balance scales, and on his decision depended....She could not say what; something vast; the world, perhaps.</blockquote><br /><br />So, no, the fact that the world is in the bargain isn't clear. It could very well be the life and sanity of two Aes Sedai who might have been willing to spill some valuable information to their sul'dam; or causing a friendship between Teslyn, a Tower Aes Sedai, and Edesina, one of the rebels; or it could be the three Aes Sedai being in Mat's debt, especially Teslyn, who swore to do whatever he asked; or it could be Teslyn and Joline in a stalemate, when they appeared to hate each other; it could be Mat being forced to kidnap Tuon for going back for Teslyn and choosing both the Aes Sedai - yes, he would have met her sooner or later, but I doubt those circumstances would have led to him kidnapping her; and the list goes on. Each of those resulting actions that led with Mat's three Aes Sedai could have large consequences. (Teslyn and Joline could influence the Tower and cause a shaky submission to Rand, or Teslyn-Joline-Edesina being the beginnings of a compromise between Tower and Little Tower, or...)<br /><br />Personally, I do think it was Teslyn and Joline. The dream was only mentioned once, unlike the eye-on-a-balance scale, so it won't be this big monumental thing in the series. Teslyn and Joline, although not entirely huge in their roles, still have roles nonetheless and it did play a large part in Mat's storyline and may possibly play one in Egwene's, since Teslyn and Joline appear to be the only Tower Aes Sedai who are willing to communicate with the Rebels and Teslyn is a Red who is in the debt of a man, even if he can't channel. Plus, we know from Crown of Swords that they have their doubts about Elaida as Amyrlin.<br /><br />They didn't go off when he met Aludra again, it stands to reason that they wouldn't go off with Teslyn and Joline. They start when something huge is about to happen that involves Mat's fate, and stop when it's too late to do anything about it; or when there's a huge battle in the offing. As soon as Mat promised to free Joline, he knew that he had to save Teslyn, too, so it's understandable if the dice weren't involved.


created: 2005-02-01 18:32:54
subject: <b>Agree with almost everything in the theory...</b>
body:
relating to the work of the Pattern.<br /><br />However, IMO, the weighing of Teslyn and Joline fits the bill perfectly in explaining the fate of the world.<br /> <br />Had Mat simply taken Joline without weighing Teslyn, he would have been long gone from Ebou Dar, without freeing Sea Folk Damane, without Tuon, without Domon and Egeanin, etc.<br /><br />These people will be of prime importance for Tar`mon Gaidon; that is, the Sea Folk and Seanchan. Without Egeanin, Tuon would not have learned of her ability to learn channelling. And I doubt seriously Mat would have seen Aludra again to get firepower ready.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2005-07-05 11:36:42
subject: <b>Promises?</b>
body:
&quot;I'll take it to her.  I said I would, didn't I?  You would think I didn't keep my promises.&quot;  The looks he got from Nynaeve and Egwene reminded him of a few he had not kept.<br />...<br />...<br />.......


created: 2005-12-04 08:44:16
subject: <b>...</b>
body:
i dont know how relevant this is but, i keep hearing the dying and living again thing. but didnt mat alreddy did die, with avienda and asmodean but came bak after rahvin got balefired? i'm not sure if that is actually WHAT it is, im juss sayin. But before you can come back alive don't u have to actually DIE first and not simply be knocked unconcious?...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br />&lt;--iKandy--&gt;</font><p></p>


created: 2006-03-11 10:19:56
subject: <b>Aes Sedai</b>
body:
I'm still not exactly sure that the two Aes Sedai are Teslyn and Joline. They could quite possibly be so, but I also like the idea of Moiraine being one of them.<br /><br />Have you ever thought it possible that the two Aes Sedai are Moiraine and Elayne? Maybe on his way to rescue Moiraine he gets word of some desparate need for his help with Elayne and he needs to decide whather to make Thom go without him or whether to ignore Elayne and go with Thom. He will possibly feel more loyalty toward Elayne, but if he doesn't choose Moiraine the world will be doomed.


created: 2006-03-30 11:19:28
subject: <b>loss of an eye</b>
body:
Hmmm I don't really follow all the prophsies etc that much but ppl here keep mentioning Mat losing an eye. Couldn't that mean he loses his memories of other ppl when he goes and rescues Moraine. (since we now know he will go rescue her)


created: 2007-05-17 15:40:24
subject: <b>...loss of an eye</b>
body:
I don't believe Mat will lose his memories, they are also a gift from the Finn just like the medallion and spear.


created: 2007-11-05 19:43:47
subject: <b>The two Aes Sedai</b>
body:
I think the two AS that Matt has to choose from are going with Verin to get the Horn from TV, or going with Thom to rescue Moiraine.<br /><br />A vision of Min's stated that Moiraine will be essential to Rand's victory.  If Matt doesnt go with Thom, then Thom will fail and Moiraine might die.<br /><br />I believe that Verin will show up in the camps of Shen an Calhar, and implore Matt that they need to &quot;rescue&quot; the Horn of Valere from the WT while Matt's making the plans to free Moiraine.<br /><br />So you have on one hand, getting the Horn, or getting Moirane.  Seeing as Moiraine plays a key part in victory over the Shadow, it would appear as a vision someone might have, that Matt is weighing two AS, with the World at stake.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;The Creator has a hardon for Asha'man-because we kill everything we see.&quot;<br /><br />Asha'man Rod al'Trot<br />Asha'man implaced in Shen an Calhar  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /><br />Sticker of Uber-ness to the Dark One <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /><br />Dancer of the Peanut Butter and Jelly  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-01-27 08:36:18
subject: <b>Nice use of Psychology!</b>
body:
I voted thumbs up!  It all seems to make sense.  Good work.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">The Mofo J.A.R.<br />Head of Public Relations, Al Bum's Records<br />Lead Guitarist, Inspected by 40<br />Singer, Songwriter, multi-instrumentalist<br />Viking <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /><br />WoT addict<br />http://www.inspectedby40.com<br />First post on TP blackboard 4 times.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-01-27 09:08:38
subject: <b>Oh. My. God.</b>
body:
I thought I was the master of long, drawn out convoluted posts here.<br /><br />Just a few comments:<br />1. The behavior of the Mayener soldiers at Perrin's inspection, I find to be typical of soldiers, in fiction, at least.  Generally authors from some kind of military background (Chris Bunch, John Ringo, etc) portray soldiers as conforming to certain generalizations.  Perrin is not a military professional, or even a warrior by vocation, and doesn't get the military mindset, and how soldiers can tune out the nightmarish aspects of combat memories and focus on the fact that they survived and won, and took relativley light casualties consdering the odds they faced.  I'd bet that Bashere, Bryne, Niall or Mat or Lan would have found nothing unusual in the reaction Perrin's speech gets.  It is a generalization of soldiers, not Mayeners that suggests they would react that way.<br />2. I doubt that few young officers or lordlings would have behaved any differently than Nurelle did at Dumai's Wells.  The Two Rivers men had comabt experience, and were stationed with the Wise Ones, which is why they didn't go.  For all we know Dannil and Ban and company wanted to follow the Aes Sedai and Mayeners into the fray, but the Wise Ones advised against it.<br />3.  I am sure that Berelain knew who Faile was.  Elayne and Moiraine both figured it out on their own, and Elayne had very little to do with Perrin or Faile, and was largely uninterested in them.  How many times has Perrin ever entered her thoughts unless Nynaeve has mentioned him?  Heck, she even thought that Perrin probably didn't run off to marry Faile and &quot;be a blacksmith in peace&quot; because she doubted Faile would be content as a blacksmith's wife.  Yet she still never thought of Perrin and Faile as likely suspects for raising the Red Eagle.  She obviously doesn't care much at all about Perrin and Faile or spend much time thinking about them, but she was suspicious of Faile's identity and nature.  I doubt the ruler of a port city is unaware of the royal families of one of the largest nations with a seacoast and heavy trade.  She would not have seen Faile as an insignificant nobody.<br />4. Berelain's justification that Mayeners speak their minds more openly can hardly be taken as any sort of evidence.  A couple of chapters later, Nynaeve blithely states that Two Rivers women never have troubles with stubborn men, which even Egwene has trouble swallowing.  If she came on too hard to Rand, he might think she was a slut, and not want her (for many people, of any gender or age, what is too easily obtained is not worth having), so she justifies behavior that he might see as being too forward, as a cultural difference: &quot;Oh Mayeners aren't easy, we just speak up on the rare occasions we want to have sex!&quot;<br />5. I believe Rj has stated that Berelain WAS attracted to Perrin physically, and found the blacksmith thing kinky.<br />6. From there it turned into a contest with Faile, who, as I have said before, she probably knew was her social equal.  I think her Oath to Faile was a result of a bad set of experiences, and to slink off with her tail between her legs from a jealous girlfriend was more than her pride could bear.  She apparently was sincere with her offer to Perrin to call a truce until Faile was recovered, because it isn't as much fun when the person you're doing something to pi$$ off isn't around.<br /><br />Overall the theory seems good and well reasoned, but I think you're building mountains on a few shaky premises. You're ascribing to Mayene a major cultural outlook, that would almost certainly have been discussed in much te same way the Cairhienin tendency to scheme for advantage, the Murandian contentiousness or Domani women's wiles have been brought out in the series.  The interesting point is, with such a large portion of the story taking place in Cairhien, and several Cairhienin characters, we have come to almost forget that aspect of Cairhienin behavior, because we have come to see them as people underneath it all.  I think Berelain is simply acting out that whole male-female thing that is nearly as big a theme in WoT as people making a big deal out of a minor detail or two.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


created: 2005-01-27 09:50:06
subject: <b>Couple of days to write all that.</b>
body:
To goddamn long. Didn't read it except for the first couple of paragraphs (the big ones). Maybe Berelain doesn't do it for pleasure and isn't completely given into her own desires, and RJ said in the books that she manouvres the Tairen lords with seduction, but if you're telling me she doesn't enjoy flirting and the whole package that comes with it, I don't buy it.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">http://www.orkut.com/Profile.aspx?uid=4841668765074332965<br /><br />&quot;It's like God gave you the tools to build a house, and the blueprint is in you. Just remember to use rubber gloves.&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2005-01-27 10:14:09
subject: <b>Not so sure</b>
body:
While I agree that Berelain is acting out of a sense of duty towards Mayenne, and that her reputation is all smoke and mirrors, I think you are drawing a few too many conclusions from just a few examples.  We know very little of Mayenne.  Outside of Tear, the people do not seem to be very well known.  I think Berelain is the only real example of someone from Mayenne that we have.  I would not want to draw too many conclusions about a culture from one person.<br /><br />Also, I do not think that she will fall in love with Perrin.  Jordan seems to like making his main characters fairly happy. That would certainly not make Perrin happy.  So much is made of her physical perfection, just as with Galad.  I tend to think they will get together in the end.  Who knows, Berelain's man in white could easily be one of the threads that never gets tied up.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">May you be successful  in all your projects.<br /><br />I am a pastafarion.  The Flying Spaghetti Monster created the universe, and no one in Kansas can prove me wrong.<br /><br />http://www.vengaza.org</font><p></p>


created: 2005-01-27 12:55:28
subject: <b>Thumbs up <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /></b>
body:
Nicely done <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perplexed.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smackhead.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /> LLT <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-01-27 17:03:32
subject: <b>Nice <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /></b>
body:
I agree, I really do.<br /><br />That is...wow...<br /><br />I envy somone who has the commitment to put something like that together.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Shadar Aiel<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />One by one the seals shatter and break.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" />Pace by pace the darkness shall advance<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" />&#8216;till only those Dedicated to the Shadow remain.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-01-27 18:06:46
subject: <b>Mayene soldiers</b>
body:
One quote you didn't include and I can't remember word for word is the book saying the Mayener soldiers loved Berelain in spite of or maybe because of her reputation with men.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Blessed Be!</font><p></p>


created: 2005-01-28 04:43:20
subject: <b>?</b>
body:
I reckon your theory is as good as any. It makes sense and it's so romantic <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />However, I just can't see RJ working out the whole culture of Mayene (which we've NEVER seen the inside of - the ONE country nobody knows anything much about) ... into Berelain. Your theory is very probable, and maybe in RJ&quot;s style, but he is not gonna say all this in any of his books, so why bother?<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> Im confused<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">i have severed all my former allegiances to The Forsaken Who Shall Not Be Named Any More Because She Was Dumb Enough To Get Captured (TFWSNBNAMBSWDETGC).<br /><br />sigh. now i must find a new forsaken to root for.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-01-28 04:49:37
subject: <b>A shorter form of the theory</b>
body:
I thank to everybody, who replied to my theory. I admit, it's very long for to read it easy, but making it shorter would take me too much work, and this theory is essentially an analysis based on conjecture of many contextual details that wouldn't be obvious without separate explanation, so I had to choose between being long and being completely unsupported by arguments...<br /><br />A summary of the mainstream of my argumentation could look like the following:<br />1. Berelain's behavior is marked by very high degree of self-control, care about a predefined public image and the belief that everybody will find her manner of behavior to be the one expected by her, and other traits, making very unlikely the suggestion that in her behavior she is just following her basic impulses, and making very likely that she follows a certain traditional art of seduction.<br />2. Compared with other styles of intersexual relationships in WoT Berelain's art of seduction manifests some specific traits uncommon for other groups and cultures, but obviously being part of a technique considered to be self-evident for Berelain herself. Such school of seduction must have it's home somewhere, and only Mayene is left. The few things we know about Mayeners in general are very well compatible with this suggestion.<br />3. The specific circumstances of the foreign policy of Mayene makes exactly Berelain's style more effective comparing to other styles of seduction known in WoTworld.<br />4. The diplomatic usage of the art of seduction would require stress of teasing (i.e. promising but not easily giving) and struggle for having the initiative in the process. The diplomatic usage of this art of seduction also will make this art of seduction and it's virtues very reswpected in Mayene. The good performance of that will be considered as a virtue. Circumstances of Berelain's behavior in non sexually related cases and also the behavior of other mayeners show lot of respect to a style of public behavior - unceremonious and pretending to be &quot;open-minded&quot; and &quot;non-burdened&quot;, challenging and facing with enthusiasm channelges of others, taking the initiative so much as possible and praising other ones taking the initiative. This style is characteristical for Berelain's strategy of seduction.<br />5. The considerations from #4 combined together with other details outshape some specific traits of Mayene mentality about what is to be respected and which traits make a person to gain high social status. Initiative and appearance of &quot;non-burdened&quot; behavior are a focus here.<br />6. Having in mind Berelain's high level of control over her emotions and the considerations from above, Berelain's behavior towards Perrin could be explained very well by Berelain's typical mayenne believes about self-dignity independent of her sexual desires (while her sexual desires only would be unsufficient to determine so active behavior and would be rather successfully suppressed by her).<br />7. Berelain's attempts to seduce Rhuarc and Rand ended with her remarkable loyalty to these both men after she failed to maintain her initiative in her game with them. After that she doesn't play seductive games around them. With perrin she hasn't yet suffered such initiative failure.<br />8. Perrin shows some resistance to Berelain's charms without breaking her game entirelly. Having in mind everything above, my suggestion is, that she sees in his behavior a (unconscious) equivalent of a male playing of the game &quot;who-will-win-the-initiative&quot;. Disclaimer: I'm not saying that she things that he is playing with her. Rather in her eyes he subconsciously fits in the role of a good player of the mayener game, something like an inborn talent. That makes her interest towards Perrin to grow, and her sympathy to him too (because Mayeners like people with that virtues).<br />9. The nature of Faile's behavior towards Berelain and the history of their controversy would very effectively enforce Berelain's model of thinking of the whole thing as about typical Mayener game. Faile's behavior helps Beralin sinking in her role.<br />10. Berelain's long-frist interest to Perrin is a good condition for step by step developement of a real affection in hers. After Perrin becomes to use Elyas' advises, he had also chance to cause initiative failure in Berelain, and that combined with already existing emotional affection (due to the too long game) in Berelain could cause Berelain suddenly changing from hunter into a victim of love passion (some details make me to believe that such turns are possible in mayener seduction game, and actually also in other seduction games in WoTworlds like the domani).<br />11. The diplomatic usage of the seduction art jmeans that it is designed to be not favorable for the hunted one. So remaining in the hunted role is bad for Perrin. Faile's behavior (#9) enforces the &quot;hunted&quot; role of Perrin, so Faile being away is a chance for Perrin to find a better outcome for his relations with Berelain (but for Berelain this occasion is rather infavorable, because she can become dependent of Perrin now). The more Perrin fits into the role of a hunter instead of hunted one, the more chances he has to become favorable outcome (and not so favorable for Berelain). Now he is practically moving in this favorable for him direction.<br />12. A prediction based on all that - if the current process of developement would be not broken by something unexpected, Berelain will end as faithfully, desperately and unhappily loved in Perrin and sincerelly working in his interest (independently of the success of the rescue of Faile).


created: 2005-01-28 06:55:22
subject: <b>Responses</b>
body:
to Cannoli<br /><br />Your points about the reaction of the Winged guard to perrrin's improvised inspection and about Nurelle's behavior at Dumai Wells, are both valid and really make my usage of it to show mayener specifics not so convincing. Perrin being the general of their glorious Dumai Wells battle really could cause the mayeners' admiration to him independent of his style of behavior during the inspection. Even the unceremonious manner of Perrin's inspection would be something that generalized soldiers would rather admire. Also I have forgotten the reaction of the Two Rivers men at Dumai Wells, and it makes the reaction of the mayener not so specific and maybe it could be explained with the desire of an army without a battle glory to be recognized as glorious band like more notorious armies (in that aspect the situation of the Two Rivers men and the Winged Guard at Dumai Wells was common). However there are other soldier masses who show different style of reaction in some details. The Cairhienins under Dobraine at Dumai Wells entered the battle not with enthusiasm, but with fatalism (Perrin notices a fatalism similar to that of wolves). Among the ghealdanan soldiers Perrin has nothing of the success he has among mayeners, the Arganda's army only obeys to him without enthusiasm. Perrin havent's yet leaded them in a vitorious battle but with no doubts they know about Perrin's glory in the Two Rivers siege and Dumai Wells. Soldiers of other armies after successfully fighting under Rand or under Lan also show different reactions in occasions. Tairens even after hard battles show not an entusiasm to follow somebody, but the desire to gain glory by striking on their own initiative. Illianers show enthusiasm to be leaded by a strong leader, but based rahter on patriotic and competitive motivation, not &quot;because the Aes Sedai had the full right to give the order&quot;, Illianers show enthusiasm to follow tonly those whom they recognize to be their oun esteemed leaders, and it's earned by doing good things to Illian. The Saldeans follow the one who already prove himself to be a good leader and are not impressed even by Rand's glorious reputation and his seemingly glorious appearance in the battles they already fought under him. The same is true also about other Borderlanders and about the Domani, especially visible in New Spring under Lan. The soldiers of these nations, even under very glorious leader, do not show any trend to engage enthusiastically in glorious battles, they usually face it with grim resolute to do what must be done. So the reaction of the mayener soldiers is somewaht different from the reactions of soldiers from other nations in similar cases.<br /><br />About Berelain knowing who is Faile from the very beginning ... it is an interesting possibility and it sounds plausible, but neverhteless I doubt it. Faile's ambitious nature and her typical saldean reactions are visible, and I'd say that even a saldean farmgirl would not let her lover to be satisfied with less glory and initiative than he already gained. Even a nobble blood of Faile would be not necessary to make the conclusion about Faile's ambitions, Elayne made - Faile is obviously ambitious nature, and Elayne as Heir-Daughted must be learned to recognize ambitious people. It is quite possible that Berelain could recognize that Faile is a nobblewoman, but it is not necessary that even Elayne or Moiraine recognized that. Moiraine knew the name Zarine, and she could know that Bashere's heir has such (obviously rare) name and that could give Moiraine some hint, but even so I doubt Moiraine knew Faile's identity, because having the control over faile she has, Moiraine would rather use Faile for some political scheme, when she definitely needed political support for her plans, but Moiraine doesn't show any indication of attempts to use Saldea's third in line for the throne. But whatever could Moiraine know, there are no indications that Berelain knew the name Zarine, so she couldn't draw the conclusions from it. So even if Berelain saw a nobblewoman in Faile, she had no data to figure out Faile's exact rank nor any connection of hers to the House Bashere, and just a saldean noble is definitely not a peer to the First of Mayene. Exactly because I don't believe that Berelain knew Faile being her socially equal in Tear, I also don't find it likely enough that Berelain will take so much attention to the rivalship of just some nobble from far country. While Berelain seems to take the contest against Faile too personnaly. Of course it was a bad set of experience, but my interpretation is, that it was rather the combination of 1: Faile's challenge and initiative would require from a mayener self-dignity to overthrump both the level of challenge and of initiative, 2. Faile matched the role of a rival huntress for the hunted man and that strenghtened Berealin's tendention to think about the whole case in the stereotypes of Mayener art of seduction.<br /><br />When I wrote this theory I have forgotten both the interview where Jordan said that Berelain was physically attracted by Perrin, and one Egwene's dreamwalking reporting about one Berelain's quite sexual dream. So my suggestion from the theory, that Berelains claimed sexual desires could not express the truth about her nature, are not justified. But what I still believe, is that the sexual attraction would not move Berelain to engage in any long-frist plans about Perrin nor to care so much about winning him. Berelain usues her sexuality too much like a diplomatic weapon and she controlls too well her emotions for to let her sexual desires dictate her engagements. Lust or no lust, Berelain is not a woman who would act impulsive and passion-directed. She can enjoy the sight of Perrin shoulders and her flirt with him, but this pleasure will not move her to any serious plans.<br /><br />Berelain could lie to Perrin about the only two men in her bed before (both being politics not pleasure), but Perrin's nose doesn't detect any trait of lie there (and Berelain cannot know about Perrin's nose to simulate a smell). So more likely this about the only two men was not a lie. In this case the only two men (no one of them a pleasure) would be quite strange for a woman succeptible to act for satisfaction of her lust, and having good opportunity for that being a loved ruler of a very tolerate to sexual matters country.<br /><br />I admit that stereotypic cultural specifics of different westlander nations often made people blind for the real human underneath it. But that doesn't remove the significance of a national mentality for every character. Dobraine and especially Moiraine are very different from the egoistic approach of the stereotypic Cairhienin, but nevertheless they both are very typical Cairhienins - in most of the characteristic traits that are neither morally good nor morally bad and that made cairhienins culturally different from other nations where the Great Game is often played. The widespread sentencing of Cairhienins for allwaqys scheming for advantage is unjust, but actually it is just a rude oversimlification of what is really a Cairhienin style - allways to maintain proper demure image, too keep all private feelings as nobody else's business (except in suddent and non durable explosions of enthusiasm) - and that is true for all Cairhienins with all their personal differencies. The same is true for every other nation in WoT. Every nation in WoTworld has it's specific mentality. The Mayener can be not some mud-gray exception from that.<br /><br />to bme:<br />I don't state, that all the Berelain's reputation is all smoke and mirrors (I only used to keep the possibility for that earlier, but not now, after I found a quote against it). But if not all there is some smoke and mirrors in her reputation. It is a reputation she carefully maintained, often using lies. The best lie is something that has a great deal of truth in it, so Berelain can have a lot of lust in her. She may even willingly attempt to really feel the scanadlous things for to be better in her role. But what is sure, her deeds are not driven by her &quot;unburdened&quot; feelings as she pretends to show. She is everything but not an impulsive and open-minded nature. Also when predicting that Berelain will fall in love to Perrin, I don't predict that Perrin will also fall in love to Berelain nor that they will come together. For Berelain it would be an unanswered love (while a love between Berelain and Perrin by the current conditions will be not happy for both of them) and this would be the best outcome for Perrin (independent of the success of Faile's rescue). For Berelain it would be not a happy outcome, but a quite ironical one and so a jordanesque one - exactly Berelain to become the unhappily and very passionately loved in. The current process is, that Berelain becomes more and more emotionally attracted to Perrin and more and more dependent of him, while he is acting in a manner allowing him more and more emotional independence from her.<br /><br />to dialya<br />I remember the existence of such quote, but I don'[t remember where exactly it was. It is somewhat supportive for my these, but not decisively. IIRC it was Perrin's PoV who is not the best possible expert about mayenner.


