# w_comment

created: 2006-05-03 08:14:46
subject: <b>Good theory</b>
body:
But i'm not convinced. Maybe her punishment is greater than the others' because she is more like a rogue agent. I know all the forsaken act in their own ways and for their own interests, but they all aspire to be nae'blis. With Lanfear, I always had the feeling she wants more....e.g the Choeden Kal (sp?). She was thinking about &quot;challenging the Dark One, even the Creator&quot;. That statement could just be rapture of talking about the statues, which the other forsaken could get caught up in if they had them, but it shows great disobedience. The other forsaken only want to be Nae'blis, she wants to defeat the DO. The statement also shows that she admits the creator is more powerful than the DO, something i've never read from a forsakens PoV, another sign of possible betrayal? If she's less scared than the other forsaken, is she as reliable? She also wanted Rand/LTT to the same degree that the others wanted to be nae'blis, another goal seperate from the others', and possibly maybe the DO's plans. She pushed her luck too far and was slapped down?<br /><br />Sorry, was only meant to be a small comment but I got that from 5 minutes thinking, and I don't think that they're too far fetched.<br /><br />Sorry for spelling and lack of sense too.


created: 2006-05-03 19:46:34
subject: <b>My take on one part</b>
body:
I always understood the whole paragraph about Moridin putting his hand to the breast of his coat - as him touching the control to the mindtrap that was around his neck and lay under his coat on his chest.  That is why Arangar figured out that Cyndane and Moggy were mindtrapped because she knows that the control (or key or whatever it is called) is usually worn around the neck.


created: 2006-05-03 23:50:54
subject: <b>I think you are wrong about why she was mind-trapped.</b>
body:
Neither of the 'Gars lost any ability upon their reincarnation, just Cyndane.  And since both Moggy and Lanfear did the same thing and are both mind trapped, I think that it more likely that her betrayal is the cause of the lost ability and the plainness of her reincarnated body.<br /><br />Ishy is believed to have a hand in the creation of the current Aes Sedai politcal system and one thing that is mentioned in several places is that each AS tend to hold back secret weaves from others.  This system would be indicative on what Ishy was trying to accomplish in the DO's name, A very weak (power wise) system of AS.  It stands to reason that the punishment for a Forsaken teaching AS 'new' weaves would be very harsh and in accordance to the DO.<br /><br />I think that Lanfear's Punishment for betraying Ishy in TDR (which I agree that she probably did) is Cyndane's body and her ability.  After all, she was extremely powerful, overwhelmingly beautiful, and arrogant as an elephant on an ant hill.  Cyndane will always have the memory of her beauty and power and will never achieve it again.  This would seem to be more to Ishy's style, this type of mental torture.  I see it as a gift of the DO to the Naeblis, who was never supposed to die.  <br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where is my Hannelore?<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2006-05-04 00:07:08
subject: <b>Ahem...</b>
body:
I believe you mean TDR, not TSR, you ignorant fool.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I am one can short of a six-pack!!<br /><br />Of spice-beer, of course.</font><p></p>


created: 2006-05-04 19:47:25
subject: <b>Feeble Man has hit on the most crucial point.</b>
body:
How can anyone possibly understand what you are talking about when you delude us with these false book references?  You inept twit!  How could anyone possibly have understood which book you were talking about?  Clearly the theory, and all the rest of us who responded to it should be banished from wotmania for all eternity for failing to note this.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


created: 2006-05-05 04:43:51
subject: <b>Replies</b>
body:
Thanks for all the replies and for reading my theory. Time for some responses. <br /><br />I&#8217;ll respond to each of you individually but I have noticed one thought line flowing through most of the replies, which I believe is invalid. The objection is that Lanfear was the most deserving Forsaken to be mindtrapped because of her previous acts. These included being a rogue agent from the beginning, including treasonous thoughts of overthrowing the Dark One with the Choedan Kal, overthrowing all the other Forsaken, capturing one, and aiding the Dragon Reborn. This is all true. She is by far the most treacherous of the Forsaken &#8211; and I mentioned that in my theory.<br /><br />However, what you are all forgetting is that none of the other Forsaken know this. It is really incorrect to assume that the Forsaken possess a reader&#8217;s omniscience. Look at the following facts about Lanfear &#8230;<br /><br />1. None of them are truly sure that she is dead. There are rumours which Graendal alludes to, and none of them have figured out Cyndane yet. Demandred has come close but the strength quotient put him off. If you think that this is farfetched then consider that in KoD, Aran&#8217;gar still wondered about whether Asmodean was dead.<br /><br />2. None of them know about her meetings with Rand or her ideas regarding the Choedan Kal. Asmodean considers what she would do to get her hands on the female key, but none of them suspect that she is meeting with Rand or aiding him. Sammael believed that she was a traitor and intended to kill her, but although he was correct, he was correct for the wrong reasons. He thought she sent the Trollocs to the Stone to help Rand, but it was Semirhage. The Dark One thinks that Asmodean was traitor, which implies that he doesn&#8217;t know about Asmodean&#8217;s circumstances.<br /><br />The truth is that most of you assume that Ishamael and the rest know exactly what this vixen is up to, when in actual fact they haven&#8217;t the smallest idea, just like Lanfear doesn&#8217;t know about the others. We never see Demandred&#8230; he might be plotting too, yet just because we are privy to Lanfear&#8217;s treachery, it is assumed that everyone knows about it and therefore have decided to punish her for it. It is for this reason that I have linked Lanfear&#8217;s appearance at the Stone to an open act of treachery which Ishamael could see. For this reason he would be able to exact his revenge against her based on evidence.<br /><br /><b><u>Etzel </u></b><br /><br />Thanks for the comments. I am very angry that I forget to include that quote, because it was part of my original content. Thanks for remembering though <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><b><u>Jofraz </u></b><br /><br />Thanks for the comments. I think that Moridin or Cyndane will reveal it in AMoL.<br /><br /><b><u>Shishka </u></b><br /><br />Thanks Shishka&#8230; but as I mentioned in a post on the board, I don&#8217;t think that Lanfear being burned out is a viable conclusion. I have no doubt that Lanfear and Moiraine were incapacitated in some way. Perhaps they were knocked out by the wrenching of the gateway when it was severed, or perhaps the Finns neutralized them. If they can make a medallion to protect Mat then they surely can help themselves against the One Power. Either way, Moiraine was held and Lanfear was too.<br /><br />I don&#8217;t agree that the Dark One wouldn&#8217;t allow Cyndane to be weakened slightly. She is still technically the strongest woman in the world, although she could be stronger. I&#8217;m leaning towards a TP shield by Moridin to protect himself from her original strength, while at the same time helping her retain her position as the strongest woman. <br /><br />We know that the Forsaken actively try to destroy one another, and it is unlikely that any Forsaken would be punished for killing another one. However, if she helped the Dragon Reborn kill a Forsaken, that would be different. It is a pathetic and subtle differentiation, but a valid one I think. You can kill one another, so long as you don&#8217;t help the Light kill you.<br /><br /><b><u>LogainReborn </u></b><br /><br />Moghedien&#8217;s good deed is an interesting point, and one which many of us are still unsure about. It is possible that teaching the Aes Sedai how to Travel aiding in spreading chaos, especially with the Black Ajah so easily on the move. As I said, Ishamael assumed she was treacherous but he had no evidence.<br /><br /><b><u>Kcf </u></b><br /><br />Thanks Ken. I addressed your contention above, and the pony is Cyndane&#8217;s next punishment if she fails again <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><b><u>Fanatic Templar </u></b><br /><br />I don&#8217;t actually agree that Lanfear wanted to challenge the Dark One. I think it was a boast of the Choedan Kal&#8217;s strength, to try and sell the idea to Rand. She mentions in TDR earlier to Ishamael that she is a faithful servant of the Dark One, and it seemed plausible. Later in TSR she mentions the following&#8230;<br />- Rand must come with her to SG and kneel before the Dark One.<br />- She and Rand can rule the world under the DO&#8217;s name.<br />- If he doesn&#8217;t she could turn him against his will anyway.<br />I do believe that she is faithful to the Dark One, but to herself first I would say. Lanfear&#8217;s attempts to turn Rand were as honourable as Ishamael&#8217;s except that Ishamael wanted Rand to kneel before him and the Dark One. Lanfear wanted to rule alongside Rand after they had killed the other FS.<br /><br />Cyndane&#8217;s name is peculiar. According to Osan&#8217;gar, a second chance was very rare in the Age of Legends, so they are all actually Last Chance, but Lanfear was given the name.<br /><br />As I said, I believe she aided Rand in TAR.<br /><br /><b><u>Youker </u></b><br /><br />I agree that her statements exclude her being killed immediately by the Finns, and I still don&#8217;t believe the Finns would kill a Forsaken instantly and leave Moiraine alive. They seem to be neutral, despite their aversion to the Shadow.<br /><br />Lanfear could easily keep her motives secret from Rand. She said to him later in the Stone that she would not admit to helping him because he would expect it again, and that would be deadly.<br /><br />Moridin is easily as petty as the other Forsaken. They are even more flawed and foolish than most people. Consider how Demandred is always trying to stand taller, how Moridin explains the importance revenge against those who oppose him, and Aran&#8217;gar comparing her legs to Graendal&#8217;s. Considering Ishamael has died and returned, he would know that death is not absolute, especially not if someone as strong as Lanfear was killed. It would be a fitting punishment for her to lose her beautiful body and experience the unpleasantness of death. <br /><br /><b><u>Cannoli </u></b><br /><br />Tactless and hysterical as usual, but consistent with previous posts at least.<br /><br />As I mentioned above, you assume that everyone knew about Lanfear&#8217;s plans and her betrayals. As for her reasons for attacking Rand, they are irrelevant. It doesn&#8217;t matter if Lanfear attacks Rand because he&#8217;s bedding another woman, if Demandred attacks him because he hates him for no good reason, or if Sammael attacks him because he wants to remove his scar &#8230; attacking the Dragon is allowed (at the time it was), and is probably the primary prerogative of the Shadow.<br /><br />I don&#8217;t really see your point about the Forsaken&#8217;s deaths. It is not important how humiliating their deaths were, it is important how humiliating their new lives are. I mean, really, are these your real points?<br /><br />As for my Stone theory, yes I accept that it is a theory based on tenuous evidence&#8230; which is why it is an idea which I have placed on theory post. So let&#8217;s go through all the tenuous evidence and I&#8217;ll show you that a good case can be made. Lanfear disguises herself as Else Grinwell and sends the three girls to the Stone. Rand faces Ishamael and kills him. Lanfear&#8217;s letter to Moiraine appears right after this and Berelain confirms that she was there. The next day Lanfear says that she&#8217;s revealing herself to Rand and that they must unite to kill the rest of the Forsaken. The trend is obvious, unless you are seriously suggesting that Lanfear was there to only observe Rand fighting Be&#8217;lal and Ishamael. She was ready to intervene, and she did.<br /><br /><b><u>Scalius </u></b><br /><br />I made a post on the board stating that I refute that she was burned out. The Finn&#8217;s definitely held her and if they were so revolted about her allegiances then they surely would have killed her immediately. They were possibly held because they severed the doorway to the world, or because without an exit they had no way to bargain for their freedom.<br /><br />I also refute that she was Healed. Graendal says that only Semirhage can Heal, and it would be questionable for Semirhage to possess this knowledge.<br /><br />One other point I want to raise is that mindtrapping may be the right of a Forsaken to request. Moghedien said she brought prisoners to Shayol Ghul for the mindtrap and whether due to orders of because of personal revenge remains obscure. Of course, she couldn&#8217;t capture another FS and ask it of the DO, but the Nae&#8217;blis might be able to request it.<br /><br /><b><u>Galore </u></b><br /><br />I don&#8217;t believe that a burned out channeler who dies is reincarnated in the same form until they are Healed. Aginor also burned himself out, yet his strength is the same as before (from what we know).<br /><br />It is possible that Moridin was merely playing with the mindtraps, but I offer an alternative <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><b><u>Harrymonk </u></b><br /><br />I don&#8217;t believe that Lanfear was a questionable Forsaken regarding her actual allegiance to the Shadow.<br /><br /><b><u>jtmtrini </u></b><br /><br />Yes, that is an alternative <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><b><u>MightyYT </u></b><br /><br />You may be correct, but would the Dark One allow a Forsaken to be permanently weakened? I don&#8217;t believe he would.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">A One Power researcher<br />Defender of Lanfear<br />Grand Ninja-Nae'blis to be feared <br />Original Warder to Isa <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br />New Warder to Nossie <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />Toy to Seriana <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/winky.gif" border="0" /><br />Mystified by a Fan <br />Bonded Phelix - I was young, it happened so fast.</font><p></p>


created: 2006-05-05 08:02:39
subject: <b>Sidious</b>
body:
Good replies. However, a couple of thoughts.<br /><br />1. The truth is that most of you assume that Ishamael and the rest know exactly what this vixen is up to, when in actual fact they haven&#8217;t the smallest idea, just like Lanfear doesn&#8217;t know about the others.<br /><br />Why do we assume that? Who said we did? Did I miss something? Why would the other Forsaken need to know anything? Even Moridin doesn't need to know. The only one that needs to know is the fella that bought her back and gave her her punishment, the DO.<br /><br />2. In your comment to Shiska &quot;I&#8217;m leaning towards a TP shield by Moridin to protect himself from her original strength, while at the same time helping her retain her position as the strongest woman&quot;<br /><br />This could be true, quite nice too. However, if true, doesn't this discount your theory? Her punishment for dying is to be reborn in a body she would dislike (like Osan'gar and Aran'gar), her punishment for helping the Light is to be mind-trapped, much in the same may Moghedien was. The fact that she is weaker than before could be explained that she was just too strong to control. However, would she have the cojones to attack someone that has her mind trap?<br /><br />3. I thought Egwene figured out how to travel by herself, and the look on Moghedien's face when shown was confirmation. Egwene didn't really need anything more from Moghedien, so in my mind, she didn't really teach them to travel. Nothing to do with your theory though, just wanted to get it of my broad, hairy, muscular chest...<br /><br />4. In your reply to F-T &quot;I don&#8217;t actually agree that Lanfear wanted to challenge the Dark One. I think it was a boast of the Choedan Kal&#8217;s strength, to try and sell the idea to Rand. She mentions in TDR earlier to Ishamael that she is a faithful servant of the Dark One, and it seemed plausible&quot;<br /><br />True, she may have just been trying to sell the idea to Rand, but I felt that she was showing her greed for power, she was genuinely wanting to do as she said. Even if she was lying, did she necessarily mean what she said when she told Ishamael she was faithful to the DO? You seem to say she was lying one minute and telling the truth the next. You can't trust the Forsaken y'know...<br /><br />That's enough for now, I can think of a couple more but am getting bored writing this so I don't wanna bore anyone else who's reading this.<br /><br />Just wanted to bounce a couple of ideas about. I still stand by my thoughts that she is too treacherous (recognised in your theory) and too much of a rogue agent.<br /><br />


created: 2006-05-05 15:06:52
subject: <b>Red Herring...but nice thoughts</b>
body:
I'm glad somebody finally came up with a viable theory (which is pretty interesting), but I can't agree. As people have mentioned (and which you left out of your theory proper) there's the fact that Lanfear plotted against the DO himself. Also, we don't know what the DO knows, since Demandred has that thought about the DO's knowledge and ignorance. So that would be a major stitch in your side.<br /><br />Then, we just don't know about Lanfear's death. I don't think the shadow would purposely do it. Why would her powers be reduced if she was going to be mindtrapped? Also, I can't see the DO allowing Moridin to kill a freed Lanfear when new bodies are so hard to find.<br /><br />Finally, I just don't think that the situation warrants a new 'Lanfear did it' theory. We all thought that she sent the trollocs to save Rand in the Stone, but that turned out to be Semirhage on the DO's orders. I can't see Lanfear coming to the rescue of Rand while he has callandor when she left him to fight Baalzamon with only a heron-mark sword before. Then, in the tSR, when Lanfear knows that Rand doesn't like to carry around callandor (and as far as I know doesn't know about the fat man angreal), she tells him about Asmodean's attempt, but nearly lets the CK become another FO's. Her way seems to be manipulative, not active- at least until she hears about Aviendha.<br /><br />Lanfear seems to want to send people around using her guile (except for Asmodean who was a pansy). She helps to move Rand to fight the seanchean, where he must accept who he is. Then she allows Be'lal to goad him to the stone and callandor (if she watches his dreams, she could have guarded them from Be'lal). She watches Rand fight, perhaps knowing that Moiraine would take out Be'lal, and never acts so that none of the forsaken can accuse her outright of treachery. But Rand ends up with callandor in the end- her plan. In the fourth book, she joins with Asmodean, who wants the CK, but she never goes after them herself? I think that she was pushing Rand to take them. In tFoH, she helps to set up the FO tag-team that was supposed to take down Rand, but Rand goes after Rahvin instead of Sammael at the last minute? Maybe Lanfear was only thwarted by the fact that Rand did Aviendha, and the rest of her plans were going well- manipulate to play both sides, but always wanting power and control over Rand.<br /><br />As Cyndane, her thoughts are always about killing Rand. Moridin even says that he can't send her near Rand because she would cause an 'accident.' I think that her secondary goal, after total power, has been to coerce Rand in her own way, so that she could prove for all time that she was better than Ilyena, whom is dead and cannot be competed against really. I think that it was her plan to subvert Rand and somewhat betray the darkside that got her mindtrapped, and not because Ishy had a separate beef. Moridin seems to be the DO's man, even Shaidar Haran seems to serve him. I don't think that Moridin would kill Lanfear, hoping that the DO will bring her back and not care, when one of the main purposes with SH and Moridin has been to get the FO in line (they don't tell anyone it's Lanfear, so that doesn't inspire fear, nor do they heap on the shame).


created: 2006-05-05 16:42:42
subject: <b>Thumbs down, BUT...</b>
body:
I agree with some of the points, but not with the main argument that Moridin set Cyndane's mindtrap out of vindictiveness. He may be Nae'blis but the DO still calls the shots, which means what happens to the Forsaken is the DO's will. At the most, Moridin may have suggested that he kill Lanfear for her to be resurrected in another body and hamstrung vis a vis saidar, but the final decision would still have been made by the BIG VOICE.<br /><br />Still, excellent job pointing out the extent of Lanfear's various treacheries.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/clap.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lan.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/clap.gif" border="0" /><br />Nynaeve and Lan!<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2006-05-06 11:37:08
subject: <b>a bit wasteful?</b>
body:
why would he have killed lanfear and then had her er-incarnated to put a mindtrap on her? it seems completely out of character for moridin to do so, rather pointless, unless you assume that he wanted her to have a body which nobody would recognise, but then she could have disguised herself! so no real logic behind killing her when you can control her already, torture would possibly have been a better punishment, but i dont think she was killed by one of the forsaken! maybe the only way out of the Finn world without cheating was to die?


created: 2006-05-06 17:20:18
subject: <b>A couple points....</b>
body:
First off, it's pretty obvious from the lightning flashes witnessed beyond the Doorway ter'angreal, that Lanfear and Moiraine battled in Finnland, so she was not &quot;burned out&quot; by Mo yanking the angreal away from her.<br /><br />Much has been speculated about the nature of the angreal itself, however. The author makes a point of having Moiraine's thoughts tell us that she didn't like it for some reason. She conveys to us that it is inscribed/decorated with a person that has their wrists bound to their ankles. This would seem to perhaps be a clue to something sinister with the angreal. Who would make such a gruesome depiction on an object of Power that was made in a time of utopian-like circumstances? Why? <br /><br />This has led me to believe that the angreal had some sort of &quot;binding&quot; qualities to it, and this is the explanation for Lanfears' One Power loss. <br /><br />As for Lanfear helping Rand out in TAR during the battle at the Stone, I don't think there's enough evidence to show that. Your main point hinges on her helping him out of TAR and back into the waking world. (The rest is easily explained by LTT's subconscious intervention as already witnessed by some of the feats Rand performed previously in the series and in that battle in particular, IMO.)<br /><br />The lack of a Gateway to return seems unexplainable for his escape from TAR, but, we later see that Slayer moves in-and-out of TAR without the use of the Power or a Gateway. Also later in the series, Demandred sees Elayne in TAR, and  points out that she appears to be using a minor ter'angreal to aid her. He goes on to reveal that they used to use such devices in teaching students about that realm. <br /><br />We also see that Aviendha, who has no Dreaming talent, can enter TAR with the aid of one of the Dreamwalkers. While we have no explanation for how this is accomplished, we know that the Aiel use no angreal nor make Gateways to enter TAR. On top of that, on the march from Rhuidean to Cairhien, we see Egwene enter TAR while awake and in a pseudo trance riding her horse. (Something the Dreamwalkers taught her.) So, you don't necessarily have to be asleep to go to the Dreamworld.<br /><br />As we can see, there is more than one way you can enter TAR, even without the benefit of being a Dreamer or Dreamwalker. And I would also point out that in TDR, Rand showed signs that he may very well have this latent Talent, as he encounters Egwene on her first sojourn into TAR using the ring ter'angreal.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2006-05-06 19:02:56
subject: <b>refuting light in the night</b>
body:
i don't really agree with the theory so much, but i have some quick stuff to say about light in the night's comment.<br /><br /><b>First off, it's pretty obvious from the lightning flashes witnessed beyond the Doorway ter'angreal, that Lanfear and Moiraine battled in Finnland, so she was not &quot;burned out&quot; by Mo yanking the angreal away from her.</b><br />Correct me if I'm wrong, but I always read the lightning as a result of the breaking of the ter'angreal, not a one power battle.  also, and i don't know if we've all agreed about this yet, but moiraine was likely burned out when she entered the gateway, hence the warder bond breaking.  Because, let's face it, if those two had &quot;battled,&quot; especially with moiriane burned out, she would have been extra-uber toast and we now know that's she's still kickin' it.  I don't have anything to say about your theory on the angreal, though.<br /><br /><b>we later see that Slayer moves in-and-out of TAR without the use of the Power or a Gateway</b><br />Slayer is a special case.  Doesn't he <i>live</i> in TAR?  He also turns into two other people at will, so i don't think he's a good ruler by which to judge TAR abilities.<br /><br /><b>Demandred sees Elayne in TAR...using a minor ter'angreal to aid her</b><br />it's true, but she has not entered &quot;in the Flesh,&quot; as the Dreamwalkers call it.  Obviously no gateway is needed, because she is dreaming her way there.<br /><br /><b>Aviendha, who has no Dreaming talent, can enter TAR with the aid of one of the Dreamwalkers</b><br />Like Elayne, Avi is not in TAR in the flesh.  The Aiel dreamwalkers helped dream her there, as Amys does sometimes to Egwene in the earlier books.<br /><br /><b>we know that the Aiel use no angreal nor make Gateways to enter TAR</b><br />Well, we know that they don't need ter'angreal or angreal to enter the Dreamworld.  They dream there!  But we do know that they need to and know how to use Gateways to enter it in the flesh.  They just don't do it because it's taboo.<br /><br /><b>we see Egwene enter TAR while awake and in a pseudo trance riding her horse</b><br />Yes, and she <i>is</i> there in the flesh, like Rand, and <i>did</i> get there via gateway.<br /><br /><b>So, you don't necessarily have to be asleep to go to the Dreamworld...there is more than one way you can enter TAR, even without the benefit of being a Dreamer or Dreamwalker</b><br />You don't need to channel to be able to enter TAR or variants of it, but i think it's quite clear that you do need to be able to channel or use a special ter'angreal (arches, doorways) to enter in the flesh.  The flesh is the difference.  And Rand had none of these.  So i still think the fact that one second he was in TAR and one second not is a good point that alludes to something.  I just don't know what, and I don't know if this theory is spot on.


created: 2006-05-07 06:57:48
subject: <b>RE: Johan</b>
body:
<b>Correct me if I'm wrong, but I always read the lightning as a result of the breaking of the ter'angreal, not a one power battle. also, and i don't know if we've all agreed about this yet, but moiraine was likely burned out when she entered the gateway, hence the warder bond breaking. Because, let's face it, if those two had &quot;battled,&quot; especially with moiriane burned out, she would have been extra-uber toast and we now know that's she's still kickin' it. I don't have anything to say about your theory on the angreal, though.</b><br /><br />What broke the Doorway ter'angreal? Two people going through it at once? I don't see the logic behind that idea, nor is there any evidence that would back that up. We saw Rand back out of the other Doorway in Tear while holding his Power-made sword, so obviously they can withstand the One Power being used in their vicinity. <br /><br />I associate Moiraine's final thoughts about having a small bit of hope of surviving and her ripping the angreal out of Lanfear's grasp as she dove at her, as a plan to use the angreal as an aid to battle someone that way overmatched her in OP strength. (Think about it this way; what would stop Lanfear from simply walking back through the Doorway if Moiraine didn't disable her somehow? Would just taking the angreal away stop her assault on Rand?) With that in mind, the lightnings were produced by Mo and Lanny, and in turn, the Doorway was set ablaze by errant/deflected bolts, or bolts directed at the Doorway to destroy it by Moiraine to prevent Lanfear's return. At some point, the damage to the Doorway is severe enough that it no longer holds the shape/design needed to function, and Lan's connection to Moiraine through the bond can no longer be felt. <br /><br />I also fail to see why you think Moiraine would be burned out and not Lanfear, too. If one was, then both should have been burned out. Unless you think that Lanfear stilled her and didn't kill her. Highly unlikely she would be so benevolent considering her state of mind at the time, and given the fact Mo had robbed her of her vengeance. And we are pretty sure Lanfear wasn't burned out because she can now channel again as Cyndane. We have seen stilling Healed, but not &quot;burned-out&quot; victims so far.<br /><br /><b>Slayer is a special case. Doesn't he live in TAR? He also turns into two other people at will, so i don't think he's a good ruler by which to judge TAR abilities.</b><br /><br />He makes his living as an assasin by using TAR, but I doubt he lives there. He is also an amalgamation of two people, Isam and Luc. (The Dark Prophecy.... &quot;Luc came to the Mountains of Dhoom, Isam waited in the high passes.... One did live and one did die, but both are.&quot; ) And no, he doesn't turn into two different people at will, or not exactly. He takes on the persona of either of those two in TAR as his mood suits him, but he has only one persona in the waking world that we have seen, Lord Luc.  <br /><br />Anyway, he was given his special ability to travel in and out of TAR at will by the DO. I only bring this up because the DO is the source of the True Power, which operates in much the same way as the One Power, only genderless. So, in my mind, this &quot;gift&quot; of Slayer's is still &quot;magical&quot;.<br /><br /><b>it's true, but she has not entered &quot;in the Flesh,&quot; as the Dreamwalkers call it. Obviously no gateway is needed, because she is dreaming her way there.<br /><br />Like Elayne, Avi is not in TAR in the flesh. The Aiel dreamwalkers helped dream her there, as Amys does sometimes to Egwene in the earlier books.<br /><br />Well, we know that they don't need ter'angreal or angreal to enter the Dreamworld. They dream there! But we do know that they need to and know how to use Gateways to enter it in the flesh. They just don't do it because it's taboo.</b><br /><br />You kind of missed my point here, I think. I was simply trying to show that there are different ways to access TAR; in the flesh or in the dream notwithstanding. Yes, Elayne and Avi are there in the &quot;dream&quot; state, while Slayer is there &quot;in the flesh&quot;. <br /><br /><b>Yes, and she is there in the flesh, like Rand, and did get there via gateway.</b><br /><br />You've got the wrong part of the story in this instance. You are referring to when she travelled to Salidar by making a gateway and riding an imaginary Bela. I was referring to TSR chapter 52, when she was travelling with Rand and the Aiel across the waste heading to Alcair Dal. She goes into a pseudo-trance/shallow sleep and enters TAR and converses with Nynaeve in Tanchico. Amys and Bair are with her, and they appear misty, while Egwene is nearly transparent. <br /><br />On the next page of that chapter, Nynaeve asks about entering Amathera's dream, and the Wise Ones tell her how foolish this would be, as she would be completely under Amathera's control in such a situation. She then asks about bringing Amathera into the World of Dreams, and we get this: &quot;We would not teach you that if we knew how,&quot; Amys said, hitching her shawl angrily. &quot;It is an evil thing you ask, Nynaeve Sedai.&quot;<br />&quot;She would be as helpless here as you in her dream.&quot; Bair's thin voice sounded like an iron rod. &quot;It has been handed down among Dreamwalkers since the first that no one must ever be <i>brought</i> into the dream. It is said that that was the way of the Shadow in the last days of the Age of Legends.&quot;<br /><br />Interestingly, it is only two chapters before that that Aviendha says: &quot;I was not supposed to let you know. If Bair finds out - Seana said it was too dangerous tonight. I do not understand it: I cannot enter the dream without one of them to help me. Something dangerous tonight is all I know. That is why they are all taking turns at the door to this roof. They are all worried.&quot; TSR chapter 50.<br /><br />I suppose the Aiel Wise Ones see a distinction between bringing someone into the dream willingly, as opposed to pulling someone in without their consent. Point is, they know how to do it despite Amys' denial two chapters later.<br /><br /><b>You don't need to channel to be able to enter TAR or variants of it, but i think it's quite clear that you do need to be able to channel or use a special ter'angreal (arches, doorways) to enter in the flesh. The flesh is the difference. And Rand had none of these. So i still think the fact that one second he was in TAR and one second not is a good point that alludes to something. I just don't know what, and I don't know if this theory is spot on.</b><br /><br />As I said earlier, Slayer enters in the flesh without any of these other objects or abilities; a gift made from the same sort of &quot;magical powers&quot; that our heroes use. While he is a special case, RJ has barely scratched the surface of explaining the ways in which people access TAR. One glaring instance of this is how the Forsaken tap into the world of dreams. We know it's highly unlikely that they are all Dreamers. <br /><br />When Nynaeve and Moghedien are stalking Rand and Rahvin during their battle, Moggy points out that they are both there in the flesh. She reiterates it to Nynaeve; &quot;In the flesh!&quot;, to drive home the point. This makes it fairly clear that this is out-of-the-ordinary from the way she says it. For me, this means that Rahvin and the other Forsaken normally go there in the dream state. The real rub to this is that we learn that male Dreamwalkers are rarer than snow in Mexico City. So, do all the male Forsaken have ter'angreal that allow them this sort of access? Highly doubtful, IMHO. This is why I brought up the episode of Demandred talking about Elayne using her ter'angreal to enter TAR. From his tone, he seemed amused that she had to use such a device to get where she was, showing her lack of training and abilities. Just another bit of lost knowledge in this backward world. (I would also add that the Forsaken are never described as &quot;misty&quot; or &quot;nearly transparent&quot; as Egwene and the Wise Ones were in their &quot;shallow sleep&quot; state while in TAR. So how do the Forsaken enter TAR?) <br /><br />Addressing your contention about being in TAR in the flesh vs. the dream state; I agree there is a difference. (Although we almost always see Egwene say: &quot;She stepped out of the dream&quot;.) The particular case we are referring to is the first time Jordan used a barebones description of a gateway. &quot;A folding&quot; is how Rand described it, and he copied the weave Ishamael wove, making a door using Callandor to follow him. <br /><br />Yet, when the battle is over, Rand just finds himself back in the waking world without doing anything to get there. No stepping through a gateway or even falling through one. He just reappears without moving. We know this isn't the way we see things done in the later books, where you have to physically take a step through an open gateway. But, does this show evidence that Lanfear transported him back? Not in my opinion.<br /><br />What it shows is a little literary license to leave the readers amazed at our hero's &quot;magical return&quot; from the netherworld after defeating his arch-nemesis. It may even be a small indicator that Jordan just hadn't completely worked out everything concerning this aspect of his story yet.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2006-05-07 13:21:20
subject: <b>LiTN</b>
body:
I agree with Johan. The ter'angreal was almost certainly destroyed by the event, and not by physical destruction with the One Power.<br /><br />TFoH (Choices) - <i>The attacks on him ceased as the two women plunged through the doorframe ter'angreal in a flash of white light that did not end; it filled the subtly twisted redstone rectangle as though trying to flood through and striking some invisible barrier. Lightnings arched silver and blue around the ter'angreal, more and more violently; rasping buzzes crackled through the air. </i><br /><br />The effect occurs instantly as they fell through which almost certainly excludes a OP duel taking place. Moiraine would have had to grab the angreal, draw on it and use it within milliseconds of falling through to create that effect. Even so, I'd like to raise the following points...<br /><br />1. Moiraine with an angreal would have no chance against Lanfear. It took a powerful angreal and a vastly stronger channeler like Alivia to match a weaker Forsaken, Cyndane. Against Aginor, Moiraine's angreal bought her a few seconds.<br /><br />2. The gateway doesn't see into the Finn world, and therefore it seems impractical to suggest that a battle on the other side would be visible from the entrance side. It is clearly an interdimensional door, and the distance might as well be light years that you travel when you enter it.<br /><br />3. Moiraine has mentioned before that the connection between the two dimensions is tenuous, and that merely being a ta'veren could rupture it. Several viable possibilities exist which could have destroyed the door... holding the True Source when falling through could destroy it (Moiraine grabs the Source moments before attacking Lanfear), or two people stepping through at exactly the same time. I don't think it's fair to exclude these two just because there's no evidence for it. The doorway melted when they fell through, and almost immediately. Seeing it as a consequence of a OP battle is a bit rash considering most ter'angreal are invulnerable except to the most intense attacks. The gateway might even be designed to seal its self if a minion of the Shadow passes through it, in an attempt to protect the Finns from their ancient enemies.<br /><br />I believe it was caused by them falling through at exactly the same time. There is no proof for it, but considering we have only seen people enter ter'angreal one at a time i.e. these ter'angreal and the Accepted ter'angreal, I believe that going in together causes some sort of malfunction. Notice how the Accepted ter'angreal also burns you out if you embrace the Source while passing through.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">A One Power researcher<br />Defender of Lanfear<br />Grand Ninja-Nae'blis to be feared <br />Original Warder to Isa <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br />New Warder to Nossie <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />Toy to Seriana <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/winky.gif" border="0" /><br />Mystified by a Fan <br />Bonded Phelix - I was young, it happened so fast.</font><p></p>


created: 2006-05-07 15:57:10
subject: <b>To Sidious ...</b>
body:
Just some quick comments on your reply to me (and, thanks for replying, BTW) ...<br /><br /><b> .. as I mentioned in a post on the board, I don&#8217;t think that Lanfear being burned out is a viable conclusion. </b><br /><br />What you mentioned in your post on the board is that you don't believe Lanfear being burned out AND subsequently healed to a lesser strength is a viable conclusion.  And, with that I agree 100%, because I agree that Cyndane's lesser strength cannot be due to a Forsaken/DF woman healing her.  But, I still think it's quite possible that she was burned out while/after going through the Doorway.  In other words, I don't think there's any evidence that she wasn't burned out, but I think there are valid reasons why it's impossible that her lesser strength is due to being healed by a woman.<br /><br /><b>I don&#8217;t agree that the Dark One wouldn&#8217;t allow Cyndane to be weakened slightly. She is still technically the strongest woman in the world, although she could be stronger. I&#8217;m leaning towards a TP shield by Moridin to protect himself from her original strength, while at the same time helping her retain her position as the strongest woman.</b><br /><br />It's possible, but I just don't think it makes a lot of sense.  Moridin could kill Cyndane in an instant via the Mindtrap (that's just a presumption on my part, but given how deathly afraid Moggy &amp; Cyndane are when Moridin plays with the traps, it seems reasonable).  Consequently, he should have no fear of Cyndane attacking him while he has the trap, even if she were at her full Lanfear-strength.<br /><br /><b>We know that the Forsaken actively try to destroy one another, and it is unlikely that any Forsaken would be punished for killing another one. However, if she helped the Dragon Reborn kill a Forsaken, that would be different. It is a pathetic and subtle differentiation, but a valid one I think. You can kill one another, so long as you don&#8217;t help the Light kill you.</b><br /><br />Well, Moridin helped Rand kill Sammael at the end of ACoS. Granted, all he did was give Rand advice on how to deal with Sammael, and his main objective seemed to be to prevent Rand from being killed, not to see Sammael dead.  But, regardless of his main objective, he didn't seem at all concerned about Rand killing Sammael, to the point of advising him on how to go about it.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Rise and fall, turn the Wheel,<br />'cause all life is<br />Is really just a circle.&quot;<br /><br />-BHT&amp;tM</font><p></p>


created: 2006-05-07 17:43:18
subject: <b>Well, how about this?</b>
body:
I don't think Cyndane received a mindtrap as a punishment but just so Moridin can keep an eye on her, sort of like a lease/muzzle. She was the only Forsaken who tried to control all three of the Ta'veren, most times opposite of what Ishameal was trying to accomplish, such as Hammer/Axe Perrin. It also turns out she was the only other Forsaken who knew what each Ta'varen looked like, which was a really strange reveal in Knife of Dreams.<br /><br />I also don't think Lanfear died, and I think Cyndane is her real body. Lanfear was too beautiful to be true and she really enjoyed it a little too much. Eelfinn wish or whatever, there was something Lanfear really didn't like about being reminded of who she was. In the Shadow Rising Lanfear almost killed Asmodean when he called her by her true name. I wonder if Asmodean would recognize Cyndane by her face. Or if he would if he wasn't dead anyway.<br /><br />Simple conclusion from these facts: <br />1 Cyndane is Lanfear.<br />2 Cyndane is weaker than Lanfear.<br />3 Cyndane is being controlled by Moridin via a Mindtrap.<br /><br />If Cyndane is a direct reborn Lanfear than she should be either weaker than Lanfear or controlled by Moridin, not both. One is enough for punishment but both weakens the DO's position if the DO was the one behind both of them. What's the point of Moridin controlling a weaker Forsaken if he could have the stronger one?<br /><br />Since Moiraine's not dead and Thom, Mat and whoever is going to get her out, I would say Lanfear wasn't dead because Moridin got her out. But in being rescued in such a way, she had to pay some hefty prices, both to the Finn and to Moridin.<br /><br />Just a thought.


created: 2006-05-07 20:49:44
subject: <b>RE: sidious</b>
body:
Why do you think Moiraine embraced the Source and clawed the angreal away from Lanfear? If just knocking her through the Doorway ter'angreal was sufficient, then tackling her into the Finns' realm wouldn't require her to embrace the Source or grab the angreal away from Lanfear. (She was standing right in front of it and the momentum of Moiraine crashing into her carried them through.) It makes more sense that she was preparing herself for a battle she knew she was likely to lose, and IMHO, possibly directed her attacks at the Doorway itself to prevent Lanfear from going back through to finish what she started. <br /><br />As for the relative strength of the angreal, we have no idea how powerful it was, but we do know it was enough of an edge to give Lanfear the upper hand against Rand, who by all accounts was quickly growing in power and might have been nearing his full potential. When he faces Rahvin just after this event, Rand's thoughts indicate that he is already Rahvin's equal in strength and his small angreal gives him the edge, IIRC.<br /><br />As already pointed out, the Tear ter'angreal's &quot;tenuous&quot; connection was capable of surviving two ta'veren travelling through it, <i>and</i> Rand came back through the Doorway holding the Source with his flaming sword in his hand. So, to say that <i>this</i> Doorway couldn't hold up under similar circumstances is unfounded.<br /><br />Also, the connection to the Finn's realm was not cut off immediately. Not until the Doorway was melting did we hear Lan say that he could no longer feel her. Up until that point, Rand had to hold him back to keep him from trying to follow her. I think this is enough proof to show that the two women weren't burned out by passing through the Doorway at the same time. <br /><br />As to stepping through the ter'angreal and the distance involved, Mat points out that when he entered in Tear and was in the Finn's realm, the Doorway was still right there but he was not where he started from. I liken this to a Gateway, other than the fact that you can't see through it. So, I see no reason to exclude the lightning originating from Moiraine and Lanfear, as the Doorway would be right there beside them. Plus, it's rather obvious to me that Moiraine was preparing herself to use the One Power <i>before</i> she launched herself at Lanfear..<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2006-05-09 09:38:46
subject: <b>LiTN</b>
body:
<b>Why do you think Moiraine embraced the Source and clawed the angreal away from Lanfear? If just knocking her through the Doorway ter'angreal was sufficient, then tackling her into the Finns' realm wouldn't require her to embrace the Source or grab the angreal away from Lanfear. (She was standing right in front of it and the momentum of Moiraine crashing into her carried them through.) It makes more sense that she was preparing herself for a battle she knew she was likely to lose, and IMHO, possibly directed her attacks at the Doorway itself to prevent Lanfear from going back through to finish what she started.  </b><br /><br />Perhaps she was planning to stand up against Lanfear in some way, but I very much doubt it happened. Consider the whole timing of the situation. Moiraine would need to get that angreal away, draw on it and fling an attack within a few seconds (if that). It just doesn't seem plausible for Moiraine to <i>fall</i> through into the Finn world and for her to instantly assault the doorway with the Power. If we look at Moiraine's PoV...<br /><br /><i>Face to face they toppled through the doorframe ter'angreal. White light swallowed everything. </i><br /><br />From her own PoV Moiraine shows how the white light occurred at exactly the moment of falling through. The connection was therefore severed as soon as they fell through. Therefore it MUST be narrowed down to falling through together, falling through while holding the Source (unlikely), or because the Shadow had entered the Finn realm. Either way, this passage clearly shows that she experienced that white light immediately.<br /><br /><b>As for the relative strength of the angreal, we have no idea how powerful it was, but we do know it was enough of an edge to give Lanfear the upper hand against Rand, who by all accounts was quickly growing in power and might have been nearing his full potential. When he faces Rahvin just after this event, Rand's thoughts indicate that he is already Rahvin's equal in strength and his small angreal gives him the edge, IIRC. </b><br /><br />I agree that angreal strength varies widely, but if we look at RJ's answer to a question I posed to him, Alivia was very much stronger than Cyndane when fighting her, yet it still equalled out. Alivia is vastly stronger than Moiraine, so what chance would Moiraine have against the original Lanfear? None, I would say. Aginor proved to Moiraine than an angreal could only buy her a few seconds anyway.<br /><br /><b>As already pointed out, the Tear ter'angreal's &quot;tenuous&quot; connection was capable of surviving two ta'veren travelling through it, and Rand came back through the Doorway holding the Source with his flaming sword in his hand. So, to say that this Doorway couldn't hold up under similar circumstances is unfounded. </b><br /><br />The two ta'veren didn't enter at the same time, they entered separately - and it did cause chaos. Moiraine and Lanfear fell through together, and who knows what effect this could have? If the Accepted ter'angreal could be as fickle as requiring you to enter naked, then I see no reason why entering more than one person at a time could sever the connection, which Moiraine herself describes as tenuous. I agree that Rand entered holding the Source, but the Finns did shy away from his sword.<br /><br /><b>Also, the connection to the Finn's realm was not cut off immediately. Not until the Doorway was melting did we hear Lan say that he could no longer feel her. Up until that point, Rand had to hold him back to keep him from trying to follow her. I think this is enough proof to show that the two women weren't burned out by passing through the Doorway at the same time.  </b><br /><br />No. The bond was instantly severed when they fell through. <i>Lan lurched by him, fixed on the wagon, leaning as if only by moving forward could stop him from falling... It was all in flames now, melting as if it were wax, but for a Wareder that might not matter.</i><br />This fits in with a warder's madness to follow his Aes Sedai and avenge her. Rand had to bind him to prevent him from suicidally running into the melting door, just like Elayne had to bind Asne's warders after she died.<br /><br /><b>As to stepping through the ter'angreal and the distance involved, Mat points out that when he entered in Tear and was in the Finn's realm, the Doorway was still right there but he was not where he started from. I liken this to a Gateway, other than the fact that you can't see through it. So, I see no reason to exclude the lightning originating from Moiraine and Lanfear, as the Doorway would be right there beside them. Plus, it's rather obvious to me that Moiraine was preparing herself to use the One Power before she launched herself at Lanfear.. </b><br /><br />yes, but look at the supposed attack you refer to ... <i>a flash of white which did not end... lightnings arched silver and blue around the ter'angreal; more and more violently. </i><br /><br />What could a continuous flood of white light be, which was trying to escape the ter'angreal? We know of no attack, from Moiraine at least, which could fit this - unless she was trying to balefire the thing. I believe the lightnings were part of the side-effect of a ruined ter'angreal when it finally breaks... like when small sparks leap off the overused Bowl of the Winds.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">A One Power researcher<br />Defender of Lanfear<br />Grand Ninja-Nae'blis to be feared <br />Original Warder to Isa <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br />New Warder to Nossie <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />Toy to Seriana <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/winky.gif" border="0" /><br />Mystified by a Fan <br />Bonded Phelix - I was young, it happened so fast.</font><p></p>


created: 2006-05-10 19:47:05
subject: <b>slayer</b>
body:
Wouldn't it be possible that it was Slayer that killed Lanfear as he was able to enter the land of the 'finn land from TAR? I am not sure which book it is but it's when Perrin is chasing Slayer and he ends up at a tower that has no entrances and Brigette showes up and tells him not to try to enter the tower, saying something about the game snakes and something connecting the game to the 'finns (if I'm remembering correctly. Then it would be believable that were Lanfear alive yet in the 'finn land that Slayer could have been sent to kill her or remove her and bring her into TAR and kill her there.


created: 2006-05-11 09:55:06
subject: <b>I agree with your Theory but not here</b>
body:
Perhaps she was planning to stand up against Lanfear in some way, but I very much doubt it happened. Consider the whole timing of the situation. Moiraine would need to get that angreal away, draw on it and fling an attack within a few seconds (if that). It just doesn't seem plausible for Moiraine to fall through into the Finn world andPerhaps she was planning to stand up against Lanfear in some way, but I very much doubt it happened. Consider the whole timing of the situation. Moiraine would need to get that angreal away, draw on it and fling an attack within a few seconds (if that). It just doesn't seem plausible for Moiraine to fall through into the Finn world andPerhaps she was planning to stand up against Lanfear in some way, but I very much doubt it happened. Consider the whole timing of the situation. Moiraine would need to get that angreal away, draw on it and fling an attack within a few seconds (if that). It just doesn't seem plausible for Moiraine to fall through into the Finn world and Quote<br /><br />Moiraine embraced the Source because she intended to snatch the angreal from Lanfear for her own use.<br /><br />When the angreal left Lanfear`s possession, she was immediately burned out.<br /><br />I like LitN`s suggestion that the angreal decreased Lanfear`s Power level.<br /><br />It will be interesting to see whether Moiraine returns with reduced Power level also.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2006-05-28 14:54:53
subject: <b>More to it then that</b>
body:
I always thought that it was because of the fact that the Dark One knows that Lanfear is not a s loyal she seems.  Demandred wondered how muc hte Dark One actually knew of the world when Demandred goes to see the Dark One in the Pit of Doom.  I think that the Dark One knew that Lanfear had tried to communicate pleasantly with Lews Therin and for this reason, bound her to him in the case that she should stray from him again.


created: 2006-08-13 20:49:02
subject: <b>I actually tried this get this theory on the theory boards like 2 years ago</b>
body:
First thing I'm gonna paste some references here.<br />Sencond thing I'm assuming Cyndane is Lanfear.<br />Book: Winter's Heart<br />Chapter: With The Choedan Kal<br />Page: 641<br /><br />This is Cyndane Thinking<br /><br />She could feel it. That much of saidar being drawn to one spot was a beacon that any woman in the world who could channel would feel and locate. So he had found a woman to use the other access key. She would have faced the Great Lord- faced the Creator!- with him. She would have shared the power with him, let him rule the world at her side. And he had spurned her love, spurned her!<br /><br />Lanfear made that offer to him and he spurned her. Lanfear is the only chosen that loved Rand. So no matter how many other references you see that suggest Lanfear and Cyndane are the same. this one alone says it for a fact.<br /><br />The Shadow Rising, Rhuidean, pg 403<br />&quot;Fool,&quot; a woman said in a whisphered growl, and others repeated it. Fool. Fool. Fool<br />&quot;Wise to ask leavetaking, when you set no price, no terms.&quot;<br />&quot;Yet fool not to first agree on a price.&quot;<br />They spoke so quickly he could not tell which said what.<br />&quot;What was asked will be given.&quot;<br />&quot;The price will be paid.&quot;<br /><br />THEY WHERE SPEAKING TO MATT HERE<br /><br /><br />Translated inscription of the spear Matt received from Finnland.<br />'Thus is our treaty written; thus is agreement made.<br />Thought is the arrow of time; memory never fades.<br />What was asked is given. The price is paid.<br /><br />MATT TRANSLATED THIS IN RHUIDEAN WITH RAND STANDING THERE.<br /><br />&quot;Then the woman struck back at her, and she suffered her second shock. She was stronger than Cyndane had been before the Aelfinn and Eelfinn held her! That was impossible no woman could be stronger.&quot; (Winters Heart, pg 649) <br /><br />A CLEAR STATEMENT THAT LANFEAR WASN'T KILLED BUT HELD THERE.<br /><br />When Matt walks out of the door in Tear, Rand comes out while he is standing there followed by Moiraine. No one saw each other while in Finnland.<br /><br />CAN ASSUME THAT 2 OR MORE PEOPLE ENTERING DOOR AT SAME TIME ARE IMMEDIATELY SEPERATED.<br /><br />1st. Ok its clear to me that either Lanfear killed Moiraine here or they where unable to finish the fight upon entering Finnland. Even the forsaken don't believe Lanfear is dead. <br />2nd. The door in Tear could only be used once so I'm assuming that the same is correct for the one that Matt used in Rhuidean. Which would mean Lanfear couldn't have entered through that door if she had used it in the AoL.<br />3rd. You have to pay a price when making a bargain with the Finn through the door from Rhuidean.<br />4th. You dont leave the same way you entered, when using the door from Rhuidean because Matt didn't use it when he was being hung from the Tree of Life.<br />5th. That means you don't need the door to leave so it being destroyed doesn't prevent you from being able to leave.<br />6th. Cyndane senses the woman was stronger than her before the Aelfinn and Eelfinn held her. Cyndane knows she has a dimished power because the shock is that she referred to the womans strength compared to hers before she was diminished.<br />7th. Time moves differently in Finnland because Matt made a reference to it in the Shadow Rising pg169, &quot;Three questions? You go in like Bili, I suppose, spend a night and come out ten years later with a purse thats's always full of gold and a-&quot; <br />8th. When Moiraine and Lanfear go through the door, based on theories and facts its possible they where immediately seperated and where unable to continue the fight. <br />9th. Moiraine's warder bond could have been severed, by either Lanfear shortly before entering the door, or by part of a bargain she made with the Finn's. <br />10th. From Matt's POV, being the only person that we have a POV from that had entered both doors. We also know that he only saw Aelfinn in one door and Eelfinn in the other door. Didn't see them together, he was surprised that there was 2 different races. Cyndane made a reference to that of having being held by them both. Another reason to believe that she was held instead of killed by the door burning up. Also another reason to believe Moiraine survived. Also would have to consider they can capture people that can wield the OP. Meaning upon entering they could have captured both Moiraine and Lanfear. <br />11th. Birgitte made a reference to the Tower of Gen'ji to Perrin in his wolf dream. In that reference she used both the Eelfinn's and Aelfinn's names.<br /><br />Based on these facts, Cyndane had to make a deal with the Finns to get out, and one of the requirments was her diminished strength. Who knows what other prices she paid or what all she gained! Another price could have been the beauty she so prized.<br /><br />Based on these facts Moiraine also MIGHT have lived. Though I do believe Moiraine did live, we are yet to see what price she paid or she may be unwilling to pay a price and unable to leave. This leads up to Thoms letter where i believe he will have to enter through the Tower of Gen'ji.<br /><br />Oh and Lan Killed Asmodean.


created: 2006-05-09 10:18:41
subject: <b>Aiel babies</b>
body:
Or else there might be some Aiel adoption ceremony we don't know about, like how you can become sisters even if you're not blood related.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cheers,<br /><br />lolmat<br /><br />http://wildphilosophy.blogspot.com</font><p></p>


created: 2006-05-09 11:41:14
subject: <b>Um</b>
body:
Even if the adoption ceremony is odd, I doubt Rand's having four babies with anyone else for her to adopt from.<br /><br />As for the theory, I think it might just happen... albeit weird.  It seems logically possible, or as logical as WoT ever gets.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Killing is as easy as dying, any fool can do either.<br /><br />The Cake is a Lie.</font><p></p>


created: 2006-05-09 12:11:28
subject: <b>Agreed</b>
body:
Once I read your title, the very same thought occured to me, about Rand switching bodies with Moridin and how it could tie in with this.<br /><br />Good thinking!


created: 2006-05-09 13:56:18
subject: <b>I don't know...</b>
body:
Seems sorta anti-climatic to me.  I was expecting the &quot;odd trait&quot; to play a part in the story.  If they only look different than people expect them to look, well for me that just doesn't seem important enough for Min to have a viewing about.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">COT is the worst Wheel of Time book.  I give it a 9.5 out of 10.</font><p></p>


created: 2006-05-10 01:20:32
subject: <b>something odd</b>
body:
This may be way out there, but maybe she will have 4 boys, and they will be marked with the &quot;dragon tatoo&quot;, or the &quot;heron brand&quot;.


created: 2006-05-10 09:37:50
subject: <b>You don't think that's &quot;odd&quot; enough?</b>
body:
In reply to a couple posts above....<br /><br />Randlings looking like Moridin would certainly strike me as odd.  Odd enough to take note of if I were the one having the viewing.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Killing is as easy as dying, any fool can do either.<br /><br />The Cake is a Lie.</font><p></p>


created: 2006-05-10 12:27:10
subject: <b>LOL</b>
body:
LMAO<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;You must be losing it Mulder, I can beat you with one arm.&quot;<br />&quot;Isn't that how you like to beat yourself Krycek?&quot;<br /><br />&quot;You're a funny guy Sully. I like you. Thats why im going to kill you last.&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2006-05-10 20:59:18
subject: <b>Maybe it's not appearance.</b>
body:
Maybe we are going about this the wrong way. This is just a thought, but lately in the books Jordan has been playing around with black and white concepts and messing with the natural order of things (Ie. Aran'gar channeling saidin and walls moving without people noticing). Perhaps the same will be of Rand and Aviendha's babies, coming from 2 of the most powerful channelers in the world.<br /><br />What I think might happen, since births between male and female channelers just do not happen in this age is that the babies will be able to channel both Saidin and Saidar. This would mean that the black tower and the white tower will be permanently fused together and we will never again have the problem of the women refusing to work with the men and creating a faulty seal on the Dark One's prison, or the hunting of male channelers by the Red Ajah.<br /><br />Arguments against though would be easy, since there must have been some male-female channeler copulation in previous ages and also in Shara, channelers can only have contact with other channelers. As well, Robert Jordan has stressed in his books the relationship between men and women. If all of a sudden there are men who don't need women to channel Saidar, the need to work with women is lost and perhaps will create an even greater gap.<br /><br />This was only a thought on a whim, I felt I needed to get it out to the WoT community to be worked and criticized. Hopefully it will spark something in one of you and generate a truly brilliant theory.


created: 2006-05-11 11:49:00
subject: <b>Come to think of it...</b>
body:
Jordan sure has made a point to describe Moridin as a prime male specimen every time he's introduced the books.  Jordan does love his irony, and Ishy going into Rand's body w/ LTT could conceivably end their &quot;eternal&quot; struggle.  And further irony would be Rand who, after all of the abuse his body's taken for the team, ends up with a perfectly healthy new body.  <br /><br />But then you've got to wonder about the saa Moridin has... and if Rand's &quot;flecked&quot; vision in KoD was saa from his balefire connection or just damage from the fireball incident.  Would the saa have some reason to disappear once Moridin was no longer in residence?  I'm inclined to think that they're physical damage to his person and not just tied to his soul.. as channeling is linked.  (ie: why Aran'gar still channels Saidin and all that)  So they'd probably stay... unless there's something else we have yet to find out.<br /><br />But ultimately, I think this whole theory hinges on whether or not Rand &amp; Aviendha get together in the final volume.  If she gets pregnant before the Last Battle then it's anyone's guess.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Killing is as easy as dying, any fool can do either.<br /><br />The Cake is a Lie.</font><p></p>


created: 2006-05-11 16:57:47
subject: <b>probably not</b>
body:
it just isnt odd enough<br /><br />my theory is that elayne and min both got pregnant with twins at about the same time <br /><br /><br />and that aviendha is going to give birth to all four of them.<br /><br />but then again it can be any other theory<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I slept and dreamed that life was beauty.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" /><br />I awoke -- and found that life was duty.   <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lan.gif" border="0" /><br /> <br />Ours not to reason why <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/loial.gif" border="0" /><br />Ours but to do and die.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/uno.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />may you find a she that will bring you many cubs  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2006-05-12 21:42:56
subject: <b>What is odd is!</b>
body:
<br />The reason she (Min) sees four babies is because Aviendha will be raising her own baby and Min's and Elayne's twins. <br /><br />Elayne and Min die in the last battle.<br /><br /> So the last battle will not happen for at least nine months or longer so Aviendha can get pregnant.<br />


created: 2006-05-13 01:42:27
subject: <b>Have his babies, not raise his babie</b>
body:
The viewing says she'll have Rand's babies, not she'll raise his babies.  With only 1 book to go I can't see the Last Battle being 9 months in the making.  Plus we're forgetting about the dream of 3 women surrounding Rand on a funeral bier.  For the other comment, how can Aviendha give birth to the other women's childern.  Its not that Aviendha delivers Rand's babies, she has them, which means she give birth to them.<br /><br />In response to some other comments about not being odd enough, the odd statement is more of an aside comment.  Four babies at once, said loudly, still something odd, said softly almost as an afterthought.<br /><br />


created: 2006-05-13 04:15:58
subject: <b>&quot;Have&quot; can mean &quot;raise&quot; to me</b>
body:
&quot;The reason she (Min) sees four babies is because Aviendha will be raising her own baby and Min's and Elayne's twins.<br /><br />Elayne and Min die in the last battle.&quot;<br /><br />I don't know about the last.  Also, Aviendha, just has to be one hour pregnant before Rand dies.  She doesn't have to have the baby before T.G.  Same is true of any of them.<br /><br />The thought that some of Rand's babies may be Moridin's is interesting, though.<br /><br />I suspect that Avi is already pregnant in book time.  She's been in Arad Doman as has Rand.  And I suspect that Min has stopped taking her contraceptive tea, also.<br /><br />So well on the way to four.<br /><br />Sister wives will clear mother one another's children.


created: 2006-05-13 20:56:08
subject: <b>nah</b>
body:
I think &quot;raising&quot; the four babies is a cop-out.<br /><br />She said she'd have the babies.  I don't think Jordan's trying to slip something like that by us.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Killing is as easy as dying, any fool can do either.<br /><br />The Cake is a Lie.</font><p></p>


created: 2006-05-15 00:09:11
subject: <b>Body Switching's ok, but this isn't?</b>
body:
I can&#8217;t believe so many people disagree with this theory.<br /><br />It seems that the Rand-Moridin Body Switching idea is generally accepted, maybe I&#8217;m mistaken. And if you&#8217;re willing to accept such a bizarre event as that then why not that Rand and Avienda will have kids after he takes Moridin&#8217;s body. Maybe it&#8217;s not crazy enough? <br /><br />Plus from a writing perspective the &#8220;something strange&#8221; could be additional forshadowing that the body switching is going to happen. <br /><br />I totally agree with this theory, if the body switching makes sense, then this is the most sensible reason for Avienda&#8217;s babies to be &#8220;odd&#8221;.<br />


created: 2006-05-15 02:44:18
subject: <b>IMHO</b>
body:
It will be one of the unresolved issues, Avi isnt preggers at the moment (as far as we know) and I dont think there is enough time to resolve it.


created: 2006-05-15 16:42:01
subject: <b>Agree with Lord Jim. And the theory of course.</b>
body:
I immediately figured this for the something odd once I saw the body-switching theory floating around the site.  And the something odd would not have anything to do with the appearance.  Regarding the idea that Aviendha's kids will not be her biological offspring - that is clearly not the implication of the viewing.  They were discussing Elayne's impeding pregnancy, and Min thinks that Aviendha will have Rand's kids <b>too.</b>  So plainly they are in addition to Elayne's.  And four of them at once, in the context of pregnancy adn childbirth implies quadruplets.  Min's viewings were all concerning the BIRTH of the children, with them being born &quot;healthy and strong.&quot;  <br /><br />The &quot;something odd&quot; is easily explained, even if they all look exactly like Aviendha, would almost certainly refer to them being fathered by the man she had the viewing about (&quot;when they were all together&quot; ), but NOT the biological offspring of the physical body standing before her.  For instance, Rand's children fathered in Moridin's current body would NOT be biologically related to Galad or Janduin's Aiel kin.  For that matter, once he hops bodies, Rand could even sleep with Elayne's currently unborn daughter!  That might be sick, but it would not be incest, any more than sleeping with a step-parent or adoptive parent would be.  They would have the same age gap as Lan and Nynaeve, and be no closer in ethnicity (Borderlander and Andoran).  And Elayne's kids could marry Aviendha's unless their adopted sister-hood carries some sort of taboo, or even Min's if Rand knocks her up after the switch.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


created: 2006-05-15 16:43:44
subject: <b>Bonding and Babies</b>
body:
I said earlier maybe there was some Aiel adoption ceremony that somehow accounts for Aviendha having four babies. That's not quite what I meant; rather, the bonds between sisters/sister-wives might make it so each of their children are considered the other's as well. Perhaps the bond makes it so that one partner feels the other's labor as if it were their own, and thereby gives &quot;birth&quot; to them as well. So perhaps Avi and Elayne both have twins, and Elayne's twins, as a result of the bond, could be considered Avi's as well, and that is what is odd about them.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cheers,<br /><br />lolmat<br /><br />http://wildphilosophy.blogspot.com</font><p></p>


created: 2006-05-16 05:00:17
subject: <b>body swapping?</b>
body:
im not sure if Rand and Moridin will switch bodies. it seems to me that in Randland you only swap bodies if the DO wishes it. (and only when you're dead)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I'm the first female Gleeman.<br /> no realy i am. <br />currently employed at the nine horse hitch <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2006-05-16 07:42:41
subject: <b>Matwilder.</b>
body:
TOO.  TOO.  TOO.  TOO.  TOO.  &quot;Aviendha would have Rand's babies TOO.&quot;  In addition to Elayne's.  That means babies BESIDES the ones they are talking about.  And if that is the Aiel law, that they share kids, then there is nothing odd about it.  It would be a perfectly normal practice.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


created: 2006-05-16 22:09:02
subject: <b>*sigh*</b>
body:
I agree with Cannoli. And I'd rather do just about anything else. He's one of the biggest jackasses I know of. But he's dead right about this, Matwilder. Why can you not understand the basics of the english language?


created: 2006-05-17 00:27:35
subject: <b>4 for Elyane</b>
body:
Matwilder, if your theory is correct and by means of the bond Elayne's twins can be said to be Avi's, then the reverse would be the same and Avi's twins would be Elayne's but Min doesn't mention anything about 4 babies for Elayne.


created: 2006-05-17 12:15:22
subject: <b>what about channeling???</b>
body:
min says &quot;something odd about that though&quot;...but she doesnt say what, so the oddness could occur at any level: physical, metaphysical, or otherwise.<br /><br />what if the oddness has something to do with either the way they channel, or their ability altogether?<br /><br />i can't recall what was said about resultant children being able to channel when both parents are able to, but we know channelling is a genetic recessive (from the big white book), so...odds are at least one kid can channel. <br /><br />what if the oddity is that either they all can or the all can't?<br /><br />on somewhat the same tack, what if, if they all are channelers, because they're quadruplets, there is some sort of symbiotic link between them on the level of the One Power...something that makes them able to link together from birth...like, instead of having to learn it, they are all born linked or something?<br /><br />in response to Aldieb WestWind, the idea that one person can channel both saidin and saidar is flawed, isn't it? the possibility for a channeling basic concept like that would have been established in the AoL (yes, i know, healing stilling etc. weren't 'possible' in the AoL, but they substituted the word 'possible' for 'no one figured out how yet').<br /><br />without the aid of a ter-angreal or a link, a male soul can't channel saidar any more than a female soul can channel saidin....and please note i said soul, not physical being, as reference to halima/aran'gar being able to channel saidin....it's obviously a metaphysical (soul-related) ability...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">___________________________<br />i'm a WoThead <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br />___________________________<br />When all else fails, laugh.<br />___________________________<br /><br /><i>Tai'Shar Charleston, S.C.!</i></font><p></p>


created: 2006-05-18 14:45:14
subject: <b>Wow...</b>
body:
I didn't realize people felt so passionately about this topic. I'm not wedded to this idea, just trying to explain clearly what I meant.<br /><br />The phrase &quot;too&quot; doesn't necessarily mean &quot;besides&quot; but could mean &quot;also&quot; as well, so it wouldn't necessarily have to be four different babies, but could be two of Elayne's and two of Aviendha's. Perhaps by some metaphysical effect of the bond Elayne and Avi share, their babies are each considered the other's as well. Perhaps one effect of the bond is to experience the other's labor or something. So what's odd is that they are Avi's metaphysical children and not just her biological children, or some such description.<br /><br />Regarding Min only viewing this about Avi, Min doesn't have viewings about every true fact in the universe, so just because she didn't see that Elayne's babies were &quot;odd&quot; doesn't mean that they aren't.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cheers,<br /><br />lolmat<br /><br />http://wildphilosophy.blogspot.com</font><p></p>


created: 2006-05-19 10:47:20
subject: <b>If I had to choose an interpretation</b>
body:
Assuming we don't blink at the idea of Bodyswitching, Matwilder's explanation seems harder to swallow.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Killing is as easy as dying, any fool can do either.<br /><br />The Cake is a Lie.</font><p></p>


created: 2006-06-27 20:20:53
subject: <b>Down with the Oddness</b>
body:
For some reason, I have always believed that the oddness would not be in appearance(whether looking odd, or just not looking like Rand and Avienda's), but I believe this might be like a &quot;dune&quot; moment.<br />Where as the children may not be &quot;preborn&quot;-but something similiar having to do with the one power.-and who knows, they may be mature for their ages.<br />But I think they definitely will be special and gifted.(that is ofcourse if Robert Jordan is able to tie them in to the last book.)


created: 2006-11-15 20:34:52
subject: <b>ELAYNE AND MIN WILL NOT DIE!</b>
body:
Again, just read the title!!  Elayne and Min are not going to die!  Min's viewing in tEotW proves that.  She sees the three women around the funeral bier, and one of them was her.  So obviously they don't die.  And as for Avienda raising Min and Elayne's babies, that is insane.  It says that NOWHERE in the books.  It says she will HAVE his babies.  This is NOT rocket science.


created: 2007-06-23 16:30:34
subject: <b>oddness</b>
body:
i personaly dont buy into the bod switching theory but that might be wishful thinking, i think jordan is getting a bit too copplex with his side story lines. he needs to start tying up loose ends not making more. hopefully he agrees because he has begun already with the shaido being defeated, elayne getting the throne, rebellions ending etc.<br /><br />the oddness is a mystery and i dont think it will be solved until jordan tells us.<br /><br />i personally am subscribng to the thoery that they will possibly look like lews therin or maybe can also hear lews therin also.<br /><br />i did think it could be something to do with the one power but elayne is as strong as aviendha (i dont know why because she hardly comes from pure blood created by channelers having children together like the aiel, sea folk or in the two rivers but for some reason she is) if aviendha's children had some perversion (channeling the wrong power, being super strong, channeling from birth) because she and rand are so strong surely rand and elaynes children would be similar


created: 2007-07-26 06:23:15
subject: <b>... just my 50cents</b>
body:
... well we all know that the hole have to be resealed.<br />And in some later ages people won't know OP.<br /><br />What if after the last battle alle channellers will lose the ability to tap the power except for this children (after all there were wizzards and witches in former times <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />It has to be something you can see but is not to obvious (otherwise Min would have seen more clearly) - so no special aura or different look.<br /><br />The idee with the linking might not be far fetched at all...


created: 2007-08-08 05:00:16
subject: <b>Aiel babies born with Dragons already on arm</b>
body:
I support Rubi Sedai in that the babies are born with a Dragon already on one of their arms. <br />Not the one for clan chiefs but the other one.<br />This means that if and when they go to the pillars in Rhuidean and emerge, that they will take over as the new Caracarn after the second Dragon is put on the other arm.<br />Of course they would not be allowed to go by the Wise ones until Rand dies, and only one may enter at a time.<br />Passing on the title like wetlander kings.<br />Babies born with Dragon marking would be strange even if they are healthy.


created: 2007-10-22 11:01:40
subject: <b>Odd birth</b>
body:
Maybe the &quot;oddness&quot; doesn't refer to the babies physicallity but to the circumstances in which they are born. One theory is that they are born on Dragonmount which in itself is a bit odd. I recently came up with the thought that Avi's babies aren't technically born, that they are &quot;from their mothers womb untimly ripped&quot;, (to quote Macbeth) ie the WoT equivallent of a C-section


created: 2008-08-07 22:13:33
subject: <b>in response</b>
body:
&quot;Submitted by nuclearsidewalk     on 5/11/2006 11:49:00 AM<br />Jordan sure has made a point to describe Moridin as a prime male specimen every time he's introduced the books. Jordan does love his irony, and Ishy going into Rand's body w/ LTT could conceivably end their &quot;eternal&quot; struggle. And further irony would be Rand who, after all of the abuse his body's taken for the team, ends up with a perfectly healthy new body.<br /><br />But then you've got to wonder about the saa Moridin has... and if Rand's &quot;flecked&quot; vision in KoD was saa from his balefire connection or just damage from the fireball incident. Would the saa have some reason to disappear once Moridin was no longer in residence? I'm inclined to think that they're physical damage to his person and not just tied to his soul.. as channeling is linked. (ie: why Aran'gar still channels Saidin and all that) So they'd probably stay... unless there's something else we have yet to find out.<br /><br />But ultimately, I think this whole theory hinges on whether or not Rand &amp; Aviendha get together in the final volume. If she gets pregnant before the Last Battle then it's anyone's guess.&quot;<br /><br />the saa appears when Mori. uses the TP so aslong as Rand doesn't ues it he won't have to deal with the saa<br /><br />however the saa is supposed to be an early stage of the sickness (or what ever it may be) and it's supposed to get worse as time goes on (or maybe more frequent use of the TP ) i think that the next stage or final stage of this is the flames for eyes and mouth like ishy used (not saying Mordi is Ishy but the Forsaken said that ishy used the TP only for a long time long before the AoL)<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I may be crazy but im still more---- OHH SHINY PENNY!<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Fear the ninja smiley<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ninja.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />ohhh pretty fire..Most not touch....OUCH IT BURNS!<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2008-08-07 22:15:12
subject: <b>Correction to my previus</b>
body:
before the end of the AOL <br /><br /><br />sorry for any confusion<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I may be crazy but im still more---- OHH SHINY PENNY!<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Fear the ninja smiley<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ninja.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />ohhh pretty fire..Most not touch....OUCH IT BURNS!<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2006-06-01 10:08:53
subject: <b>I don't think your conclusion is very convincing</b>
body:
Taim has around 100 Asha'man in his &quot;classes&quot;. If it's correct that only Mishraile got private lessons from Taim (what we don't know), I agree with you, though, that the reason is most likely that Mishraile is very strong in the OP and thus a promising student. There are certainly several DF among Taim's followers, if not all of them are already DF.<br /><br />But I don't see why Mishraile would lead the DF Asha'man at TG. I think that it makes more sense that Taim will do this, and that Logain and Taim will have their final clash then.<br /><br />I don't believe that Mishraile will play such a significant role, let alone become a Chosen. He seems too careless. Logain remarks in CoT, prologue, on Mishraile:<br />&quot;He may not enjoy his Dragon long, [...] He&#8217;s too free with his tongue.&quot;<br /><br />One could say that this foreshadowed Taim's violent reaction in KoD, epilogue, when Mishraile almost told in the presence of the Reds that there are already other AS who bound Asha'man (btw, that wasn't any secret information among the Asha'man). <br /><br />Finally, I don't think anyone ever suggested that Demandred is Mishraile. But I'm with you on this matter. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />


created: 2006-06-01 12:08:51
subject: <b>Darkfriend Ashaman</b>
body:
What makes you think there are other darkfriends in the BT who haven't recieved lessons? If you are talking about Rochaid, Kisman, and the rest, keep in mind that they were full Ashaman before guys like Flinn and Grady who came to the tower well before them.  Granted they may learn quicker than the others but I expect they had private lessons as well even if it wasn't stated exlicitly.  Granted, Taim might have promoted them ahead of time to extend his power but they would be much more useful as tools for the Shadow if they had more training.  I think Taim would certainly realize this and act accordingly.<br /><br />As far as Mishraile being a potentially major player in Tarmon Gaidon, I don't buy it.  As Logain indicates and we see first hand, his big mouth gets him in trouble.  I supsect he's not all that bright and I doubt he would last very long as a leader.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Funny thing about weekends when you're unemployed, they don't mean quite so much...except you get to hang out with your working friends.&quot;<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2006-06-01 13:34:03
subject: <b>Good thought, but too speculative.</b>
body:
I voted &quot;No&quot;, mostly because this is just too speculative.  Plus as others have noted, there is foreshadowing of his downfall well before Tarmon Gaidon.


created: 2006-06-02 06:17:41
subject: <b>question: did you sneak no.3 for a reasson?</b>
body:
as Taim's supposed homosexuality didn't have much bearing on your theory<br /><br />either way, i think that taim's roving eye for elayne shows that he's hetrosexual, though i suppose he could be bisexual<br /><br />there's very little though to suppose him being gay though<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">idealism not pragmatism</font><p></p>


created: 2006-06-03 09:50:57
subject: <b>Would agree but</b>
body:
I'd agree with you except it's way too late in the story and we haven't seen much of this guy. Taim will be around for a while longer I fear.


created: 2006-06-04 01:48:48
subject: <b>What?</b>
body:
I'm still confused as too what you were actually trying to prove. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/crazy.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2006-06-04 20:17:48
subject: <b>Huh???!!!</b>
body:
Like Gher I don't really get what you're saying. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perplexed.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Poets have been mysteriously silent on the subject of cheese.&quot;     -G. K. Chesterton<br /> <br />My naked walrus is on fire. <img src="images/personalsmilies/41668.gif" /><br /><br />TEVT: We are back in business! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/w00t.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2006-06-05 07:54:57
subject: <b>every member of taim special classes and ashamen are darkfriend</b>
body:
I believe that every ashaman(exception logain) and member of the special classes his a darkfriend either off their on will or because they have been turned by having weaves waved in them after passing through 13 myrdral. I also believe that it&#180;s that that Cadsuane will teach the Ashaman: they can be turned against their will.<br />As for your theorie I don&#180;t believe it Taim strike Mishraile just to remind him and the others that even if they are all wolves is still the leader of the pack.


created: 2006-06-05 16:28:44
subject: <b>no</b>
body:
Are you suggesting that Taim severly injured Demandred in front of so many witnesses?<br /><br />I applaud your finding a new 'candidate' for Demandred, but let's face it, Demandred is Demandred and he is not masquerading as anyone.<br /><br />There is no way Taim would so violently (and successfully) attack Demandred, especially in front of witnesses. Furthermore, Demandred would never place himself in a position to be attacked in this matter. Mishraile may not even survive - I got the distinct impression he was going to die - RJ would not eliminate Demandred in this way.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Need a book to read - check out my blog for ideas.</font><p><a href="http://nethspace.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">Neth Space</a></p><p></p>


created: 2006-06-05 18:42:26
subject: <b>Wow...</b>
body:
Apparently I'm not as easy to understand as I thought I was.<br /><br />To those who had logical counter-points: You made sense. This was just one of a few theories I had regarding the Black Tower. Thanks for reading it and giving your opinion.<br /><br />To kcf: Uhh...I said that Mishraile -wasn't- Demandred. Demandred never smiles. Mishraile smiles all the time.<br /><br />To those who wonder: Choice three was a joke. It was my apparently lame sense of humor shining through.<br /><br />


created: 2007-05-15 02:32:52
subject: <b>Darkfriends..</b>
body:
Just a thought, but as for Taim's followers being Darkfriends, I find it extremely likely that most, if not all, of them are. At the closing of KoD, Taim says to the Red Aes Sedai: &quot;After all, you remember the old saying. Let the lord of chaos rule.&quot; Then each Asha'man in the room laughs. Now, first of all, i find that far to sinister for it to not be RJ hitting us over the head with it. Secondly, it quotes the dark one, and they treat it as an inside joke. 'nuff said.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Suicide is a viable option. - Jaichim Carridin</font><p></p>


created: 2007-06-23 16:09:56
subject: <b>darkfriend ashaman</b>
body:
maybe i have missed things others have picked up but i assumed that all the ashaman taking special classes from taim are darkfriends and also that only darkfriends are allowed the dragon.<br /><br />we know taim was not happy about giving logain the dragon but what choice does he really have? he had been channeling longer than any of the students.<br /><br />torval was more than a little upset that rand had raised his own ashaman, probably because they are not darkfriends.<br /><br />we know that all of logains followers are either soldier or dedicated none are full ashaman while all of taims follwers are either full ashaman or are in special training which seems to elevate them quicker than others (though i dont see how they can be forced any more than the rest are)<br /><br />there may be significance to mishraile since he has been named quite a bit but it alsor fits jordans style of writing.<br /><br />if a lesser charector has been given a name they almost have an axe hanging over their neck, they may do something slightly meaningful first but eventually they are dead (reanne, anaiya, aram, nalesean, kairen, sareitha, vandene, meri, selame, several lords and ladies, the list goes on) jordan doesnt seem to like killing off charectors who have been named and described a bit.<br /><br />also he may have just been mentioned because jordan wanted an ashaman to do or say something and mishraile had already been introduced, it was simpler using and existing chareter than to add another name to the soup, there are rather a lot of charetors in the books as it is without adding another.


created: 2006-06-13 10:39:37
subject: <b><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /></b>
body:
Certainly an intersting conclusion as to what will happen. Very well thought out and well put together. not sure if I agree with all of it, but very good all the same.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" />Screaming_Defiance<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" />I demand the return of Hurin<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />I love these smiley's<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/clap.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banghead.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shakefist.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2006-06-13 11:40:35
subject: <b>Good theory...</b>
body:
I enjoyed the situation that you've proposed and think it has a fair chance of being correct. I expecially like the idea that Tsutama was converted to the Shadow or is otherwise under the control of Ishy. <br /><br />A couple minor issues with details:<br /><br />You say that the BA prefers to work through the Red Ajah - I disagree with the idea of preference. The Red Ajah is the largest Ajah by a good amount, they don't have warders, and are by nature a bit more 'extreme' in their beliefs. This all adds up to making them the most numerous BA, but not necessarily preferred. The most effective BA we've seen in the series so far tend to be other Ajahs (like Merean, Alvairin, Carean, etc.).<br /><br />Also you say that there is a long standing theory that Taim will use the MoM to impersonate Rand. I disagree - that may be theorized from time to time, but calling it a 'long standing theory' is too strong.<br /><br />Again, great theory.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Need a book to read - check out my blog for ideas.</font><p><a href="http://nethspace.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">Neth Space</a></p><p></p>


created: 2006-06-13 12:29:18
subject: <b>I like it.</b>
body:
I thought it was a really good theory. Good Job. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Poets have been mysteriously silent on the subject of cheese.&quot;     -G. K. Chesterton<br /> <br />My naked walrus is on fire. <img src="images/personalsmilies/41668.gif" /><br /><br />TEVT: We are back in business! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/w00t.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2006-06-13 14:30:53
subject: <b>Interesting</b>
body:
Really well done. I especially like the part with Logain recognizing that fake Rand/MoM Taim has 2 hands and starting the battle. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2006-06-13 14:32:06
subject: <b>Strongly disagree.</b>
body:
After you have stated that Merean Redhill was a Red...<br />Even little mistakes may lead to a great disbelief.<br />And this mistake is not so little.


created: 2006-06-13 14:58:55
subject: <b>I have serious doubts on the Bonding being a plan of the Shadow</b>
body:
The part about Taim being a proxy of Moridin is OK for me. Symbolically at least, he is Moridin.<br /><br />That Taim intends to use the bonding of Asha'man by Aes Sedai to his advantage I also agree with.<br /><br />The part about the Red Ajah being manipulated into it by the Shadow I find a bit unconvincing.  <br /><br />You say it comes from Tarna or Tsumata Rath. In truth, this has to come from Tarna who initiated the idea, and as you admit yourself the odds are that she isn't BA.<br /><br />Tsumata Rath wasn't looking for a leadership position.  The Sitters were barely named and the AH position wasn't opened.  That she could have any influence is speculative. <br /><br />Tarna Feir went to Pevara about the Asha'man. Tarna, as Elaida's Keeper, could not implement her own plan - and so she sought Pevara's support to have it become a reality.  Pevara had her own &quot;bad news&quot; from Toveine Gazal, who isn't BA and who passed her information without any foreseable BA influence. <br /><br />Tsumata Rath was elected Ajah Head right after this. It seems obvious this isn't a coincidence and Pevara or Tarna induce the Red Ajah to choose themselves a new leader, because they needed one to be able to implement Tarna's plan for the Warders.  Coincidence that a woman with great authority and a grudge against Elaida was chosen?  I think not - I think Pevara/Tarna had some influence in the election of Tsumata, and once she was the leader she took control (even Pevara jumps when Tsumata says jump) and implemented the plan for the BT. Pevara knows Galina is BA - I doubt she'd serve a new Head without worrying she could be BA unless in Pevara's opinion the chances that Tsumata could be BA are very slim, for reasons unknown to us.<br /><br />Furthermore, if the plan was for the Shadow to bring the Reds to bond Asha'man, then Alviarin, the only one who knows all the Red-BA, would be in the loop and there are signs that she isn't.<br /><br />It suggests strongly to me that this is happenstance.  Mazrim Taim was expecting the Rebel Aes Sedai to show up at the Black Tower seeking an alliance of some sort (Aran'gar may have no choice but to report this kind of news to Moridin at this point - Moridin mentionned once he had his own agents among the Rebels anyway, this may or not be a reference to Aran'gar/Delana) - and must have had orders about what to do (from Rand it seems, but almost certainly from Moridin as well), and instead Red Sisters showed up, which apparently doesn't contradict his orders, or at least how he interprets them - he actually found it all quite hilarious - and added &quot;Let the Lord of Chaos rule&quot; - as if he was contemplating all the chaos this turn of events would now cause. <br /><br />So infiltrating the Aes Sedai, consider/accept their offer for an alliance yes (it's obvious why, the DF Asha'man would be a massive serpent in the bosom), but I think there is not enough evidence to conclude the BA among the Red Ajah has played a role into this, or even that the Shadow has <i>planned</i> to have Asha'man in the WT as well.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="images/personalsmilies/30778.gif" />Wheel of Time Reference Library : Articles, maps, charts and misc.<img src="images/personalsmilies/30778.gif" /><br /><br /></font><p><a href="http://13depository.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">The Thirteenth Depository - a Wheel of Time Blog</a></p><p></p>


created: 2006-06-13 15:38:20
subject: <b>Interesting ideas ...</b>
body:
A very good start - well conceived and well written.  I'm looking forward to reading the remainder.<br /><br />A few thoughts ...<br /><br />My first thoughts about Tsutama were that RJ was using her to re-define the role of the Red Ajah, now that their previous role is obsolete.  I felt RJ chose Tsutama specifically because she'd been a high-ranking Red prior to her exile, so she's someone many of the Reds would listen to and respect (confirmed by the fact that they appointed her Ajah Head).  Yet, the fact that she'd been exiled from the WT for 15 years put her in a somewhat unique position to re-evaluate the raison d'etre of the Red.  Especially since she'd been exiled for the Red's over-zealous pursuit of their previous role - it was, consequently, something she'd likely have given quite a bit of thought to during her seclusion.<br /><br />I mention this because it never occurred to me that she might be Black Ajah.  Now you've got me thinking ... <br /><br />If what you suggest is true, shouldn't Katerine be involved somehow?  It would seem she'd be quite useful as one of the bonders, being Red/Black, yet she wasn't one of the six sent to Taim ...<br /><br />Do you think Tsutama and Taim are working together behind the scenes to implement Moridin's plans?  Or, do you think each is receiving separate instruction from Moridin, and is unaware of the other's involvement?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Rise and fall, turn the Wheel,<br />'cause all life is<br />Is really just a circle.&quot;<br /><br />-BHT&amp;tM</font><p></p>


created: 2006-06-13 16:36:46
subject: <b>possibly</b>
body:
I like the part of Tsutama being turned to the shadow against her will.  It explains a lot.<br /><br />You mentioned the Asha'man were no longer insane, I believe they are.  Just not going more insane.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">COT is the worst Wheel of Time book.  I give it a 9.5 out of 10.</font><p></p>


created: 2006-06-13 19:01:32
subject: <b>hmm</b>
body:
I don't think anything was done specifically within the White Tower to have an offer put towards the Black Tower in the way of a Red/Asha'man bonding scheme. The plan might have been entirely from the Black Tower side of things with an encouraging of acceptance towards the Black tower being spread in the White Tower. The fact that an offer was made may have been Shadow orchestrated or it may not. It might have been fortunate coincidence. Though I think it more likely it was orchestrated myself in that someone who is paying attention to the Black Tower might be suspicious if any offer was put to the White. Mainly because despite the fact that the Black may have superior forces and numbers, the White Tower is entrenched into the world, and has many ways of attacking the Black Tower politically. Especially with a 3000 year old anti-male channeler stigma going around. It would seem odd for the Black to put an offer to the White. I think probably the offer could have come from either, that it would have worked either way, just that the White has advantages mainly calming suspicion. Just my two cents.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">But trust is the color of a dark seed growing<br />Trust is the color of a heart's blood flowing<br />Trust is the color of a soul's last breath<br />Trust is the color of death<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2006-06-13 20:40:05
subject: <b>Couple of things...</b>
body:
I dont think I stated Merean was Red, just that she was in a position of power, to be able to influence Red Ajah initiatives you don't necessarily have to be of the Red Ajah, other sitters, Keeper, Amyrlin, Mistress of Novices, etc are all positions able to exert influence.<br /><br />As for Taim expecting the Rebel Aes Sedai to come and bond Asha'man, it is the exact opposite.  Taim wouldnt have been expecting them because Rand purposely kept the Rebel Aes Sedai away from bonding Taim's lackeys by only allowing them to bond Dedicated and Soldiers.<br /><br />I did run into a hiccup over how the plan to bond Asha'man took place, but it is well within the realm of reason that somehow Tarna was led to the decision to bond the Asha'man by either a Forsaken or BA.  Compulsion or just a friendly talk with her could explain it.<br /><br />Thanks to everyone for their comments.


created: 2006-06-14 08:51:16
subject: <b>Taim and Moridin</b>
body:
Thought I'd add one more bullet to your contention that Taim is Moridin's proxy. Remember how Moridin has dressed Cyndane and Mogehedien subsequent to becoming their master through the mindtrap, all black and red, the colors he has favored since the War of Power.  How are the inner parts of the Black Tower Designed, all black and red to the point where one of the AS sent to bond Ashaman remarks that Taim must truly favor the colors.  To me this indicates the same type of &quot;ownership&quot; which Moridin has over our two wayward Forsaken.  So in addition to the points you mentioned, I think Moridin has laid claim to Taim (and the Black Tower) and marked them as his own<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Funny thing about weekends when you're unemployed, they don't mean quite so much...except you get to hang out with your working friends.&quot;<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2006-06-14 23:50:25
subject: <b>Not bad, but thumbs down.</b>
body:
First of all, it's clear you've put some time and thought into this, and for that your to be applauded.<br /><br />However I have to disagree.<br /><br />Regarding the idea of a Red Ajah-Black Ajah connection:<br /><br />I think DomA answered this well, and I agree w/ his assessment.  I don't see such an alliance as you propose.<br /><br />Regarding Taim and your Part-2:<br /><br />I can readily buy into the idea that Taim is acting as Moridin's Proxy.  I know some advocate that Taim <i>is</i>Moridin....which is fine...but for your theory, the idea of proxy Taim is certainly reasonable.<br />As to the bonding issue....I can't agree.  First, while Taim may not have liked it, he did accept the bonding the first time, and that really is all that he is doing at the end of KoD.  If you remember what he says &quot;..and ask who will let you bond them.&quot;, it's not as if Taim is accepting of this for himself, and there is no garauntee that any of his henchmen will allow it either.  In the end, the Red AS may only get another 51 of Rand's loyal AM.  Ultimately, this fits in perfectly with the &quot;Lord of Chaos&quot; rule.  Note how violently Taim deals with Mishraile as he was about to reveal to the AS that they had already settled the debt regarding bonding via Rand's order.  Not knowing this information, the AS think they are equaling the share, to which Taim even mocks them...&quot;Fair is fair.  Equal shares?&quot;.  We know, and Taim knows, that this new bonding unbalances the share, and Taim has to figure this would only further serve to cause chaos, mistrust and/or hostility between Rand and the tower AS.  It works perfectly to serve the &quot;Lord of Chaos&quot; rule, and helps to keep apart those parties which must come together before TG.  <br /><br />As far as your theory of the merging and eventual battle at the BT:<br /><br />I'm not sold on any merger of the two towers pre-TG.  You refer to the fact that we have seen bonding and cooperation of AM-AS on many fronts...yet this can be said to serve one of RJ's main themes...that women and men must work together to achieve the best results.  It does not have to mean that the two towers come together.  <br />I also begin to get a little lost as to what you are saying will happen.<br />If I understand correctly....you argue that Taim will have AM bonded to AS so that they can return to the WT to plant seeds of sorrow amongst the tower AS, and that a certain number of the AS (or rather some of the Red's) are included in this plot.  They will sow these seeds in order to force an alliance between the WT and Taim/BT vs. who exactly?  the rebel AS and Logain?  just Logain?  the rebel AS and Logain and Rand?  <br />And so at some point the AS send sisters back to the BT...for what exactly?  To fortify the BT?  To bond more AM?  How many sisters are sent? The newly bonded Reds plus any others who want to take part?  <br /><br />I'm going to stop here and point out that the books are leading us in certain directions.  The WT has a rebel AS camp just outside it's borders....it has dissention within...and there is the looming specter of the Seanchan attack.  It's safe to say the Seanchan attack will be happening soon.  With such problems at their front door, how prepared will the tower AS be to spend time and effort worrying over the BT?  Especially given their early disaster?<br /><br />Moving on...<br /><br />You conclude that upon returning(the AS) to the BT for the purpose of bonding more AM, for some reason Taim is impersonating Rand.  Why is Taim impersonating Rand?  After all, according to your theory, the reason for the bonding in the first place is that Taim want's it so.  Is Taim attempting to provoke an attack on the BT?  Why? <br />Also, you theory assumes that Logain, for some reason, will be there at this very moment, and will witness the chicanery of Taim as he impersonates Rand(to the AS, again for some unknown reason).....this seems a bit of a stretch.  Or do you believe that Logain will stumble upon the BT some time thereafter, and just happen to walk in on Taim and the AS as Taim is impersonating Rand?  This of course would mean that the AS were then on a mission to fortify the BT...again, as noted earlier, the WT is going to be under serious seige, how many sisters will they let go like this?  <br /><br />A thumbs up for effort.<br /><br />A thumbs down for the vote, as I disagree.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Scalius <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2006-06-16 21:42:07
subject: <b>I could see it being their plan</b>
body:
but I don't think there will be time.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Fortune rides like the sun on high<br />with the fox that makes the ravens fly.<br />Luck his soul, the lightning his eye,<br />He snatches the moons from out the sky.&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2006-06-26 00:47:08
subject: <b>Good job. Thumbs up though I disagree</b>
body:
I think you did a really fine job extrapolating from a very small data set.  I disgree with a lot of your conclusions.<br /><br />First I agree with the commentor who said <br /><br />&quot;My first thoughts about Tsutama were that RJ was using her to re-define the role of the Red Ajah ...I mention this because it never occurred to me that she might be Black Ajah. Now you've got me thinking ...&quot; <br /><br />Which is great!  Something does seem off with Tsutsuma, but most channelers are more than a shade eccentric.  And she, in effect, just spent 15 years doing hard time in prison as punishment for acts that she appears to have regarded as idealistic.<br /><br />Still, the idea that she might have been turned?  Brilliant.  <br /><br />Or is it something else?  Wish Pevara and Company would use the Oath Rod on her.  My intuition says not black, though maybe Compulsed (wild look) or something like it.<br /><br />Actually, I think Tsutsama might be independent enough to save Egwene's life and/or engineer her rise to the shawl.<br /><br />But I have less evidence than you have.  You've provided a lot of food for thought.


created: 2006-07-11 18:05:57
subject: <b>Taim</b>
body:
I think that Taim is going to turn on Rand and Rand will have to fight him.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Swordsman:The &quot; Butcher's Bill &quot; shall be paid</font><p></p>


created: 2006-07-12 10:27:53
subject: <b>I disagree</b>
body:
The main point I think you have wrong is that Taim is allowing the Red to only bond low ranking AM, Soldiers or lower I believe.  Only if they agree also.  No full AM, and so no one who is one of Taim's special students since thay all seem to have been promoted to AM.  Seems to me that Taim is trying his best to make sure none of his allies are bonded, and so this will not merge the towers into one tower ruled by dark friends.  It will once again unbalance the numbers, which will lead to more mistrust and Chaos.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">May you be successful  in all your projects.<br /><br />I am a pastafarion.  The Flying Spaghetti Monster created the universe, and no one in Kansas can prove me wrong.<br /><br />http://www.vengaza.org</font><p></p>


created: 2006-09-09 18:59:10
subject: <b>I think Tarna is Black Ajah</b>
body:
Good theory but...<br />I think Tarna Feir is Black based on her overall attitude towards Elayne, &amp; Nynaeve and her close relationship with Galina which she describes in LOC.<br /><br />&quot;Offended, is it? Why? Because I called you wilder? I'm a wilder too, you know. Galina Casban beat my block out of me herself. She knew my Ajah long before I did, and took a personal interest in me.&quot;<br /><br />Just an assumption but I have a gut feeling about her.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Egwene Fan  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/egwene.gif" border="0" /><br />Elaida will fall!!! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /> <br />Egwene is meant to rule the White Tower and even Rand will know her fury!! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2006-09-12 22:03:37
subject: <b>Some yes, some no.</b>
body:
Very well thought out.<br /><br />I agree. Taim is Moridin's proxy. Also think evidence about Red Ajah Head being turned against her will was compelling, and I didn't see anyone refute the poinit. (Of course she could have just turned bitter.)<br /><br />I think the more likely scenario is that they already have 13 Fades ready to go, will turn all the Reds there, and send them back into the tower. (And may do so repeatedly). This could break the Ajah's almost beyond repair.<br /><br />I'm not so sure about Taim impersonating Rand, but it's interesting.<br />


created: 2007-06-23 15:55:46
subject: <b>black ajah</b>
body:
how can tsutama or tarna be black? if she has either chosen the black or been turned to it then alviarin would know. <br /><br />would alviarin or mesaana fail to mention it when tarna was made keeper that the woman was black? alviarin would very probably have done on of two things. <br /><br />1) called tarna to a meeting of the council to disgus why she hadnt told the black about it<br /> <br />or<br /><br />2) not really be too bothered because she would still have a handle on elaida through tarna. <br /><br /><br />tsutama is the highest of the red ajah. mesaana says to alviarin it is a pity galina got herself killed or they would know why the ajah heads were meeting. is the new red head was really black they wouldnt have this problem,<br /><br />i personally think that tsutama has hardened from her time in under such a strict task mistress. both sitters who returned with toveine were describe as wild, frightened eyed and nervous. it was mistook with tsutama so perhaps it was with the other one too. <br /><br />if the black wanted to convert a likely candidate would they really choose a disgraced ex sitter? and why pick tsutama out of the three of them?<br /><br />also we need to factor in the fact that at the time of the return galina was still head of ajah. how could the black forsee this disaster and that galina wouldnt return? <br /><br />did they just convert this ex sitter on the off chance that galina would go awol, that she would be able to work her way out of disgrace and become well regarded in the ajah and they did it all without alreting the head of the black ajah or the forsaken who gave her orders?<br /><br />very unlikely


created: 2008-04-11 18:14:55
subject: <b>NO!</b>
body:
read the prophicy! the white tower the black tower and the seachan make a  balance along with the lions of andor<br /><br />


created: 2006-07-11 09:51:49
subject: <b>not a bad idea but</b>
body:
in the eotw, rand's farm animals were freaking out since the trollocs were near. i am sure that the animals on the other side of the continent would be similarly freaked out by trollocs and would not tamely follow them unless they were herded and kept under control by some other means...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;It's ridiculous to suggest that a team could go through a season in our league without losing. It's comical, just comical.&quot; Alex Ferguson 27th September 2002<br /><br />gooner...red and white army...<br /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gimli.gif" border="0" /> my soulmate<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/clown.gif" border="0" /> my nemesis</font><p></p>


created: 2006-07-11 13:27:11
subject: <b>question</b>
body:
Do you really believe this?  Who is the crazy(at this time) 36% who do?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">A jury is a group of twelve people chosen to see who has a better lawyer. -Douglas Adams<br /><br />Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent<br /><br />Go Duke!</font><p></p>


created: 2006-07-11 15:33:55
subject: <b>This theory really gets my goat</b>
body:
Other than that, I'd say it's full of hogwash, chicken$hit, and bullfeathers.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />(And, if people read the fine print, they'd notice that this is listed under &quot;humorous theories&quot;.)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2006-07-11 15:51:21
subject:
<b>Wonderful Siddy, simply wonderful. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /></b>

body:
Way to think outside the chicken coop.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Siddy's Green<br /><font color="gray">*wears the bowtie*</font><br /><br /><font color="teal"><i>Obama - &quot;Vote for me, I'm Barack Obama&quot;<br />McCain - &quot;Vote for me, I'm not Barack Obama&quot;</i></font><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2006-07-11 17:23:33
subject: <b>Hmmm...</b>
body:
By the standards established in <i>The Eye of the World</i>, 100 trollocs to a fist and a Myrddraal commanding each fist, 100 Myrddraal would mean 10 000 Trollocs.<br /><br />'Course, it's hard to estimate the number of dead when they've been incinerated, torn apart, teleported or otherwise massacred. I'd not think Rand's guess to be worth much.<br /><br />And it's obvious that even if every farm from Algarin's manor to the Spine of the World is emptied, that won't cause famine. The Spine is hardly optimal location for farming, I'd expect most farms to be in the western portion of Tear ( as they are in Cairhien. )<br /><br />Besides, Tear has an abundance of grain. It supplied other nations.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>War must be, while we defend our lives against a destroyer who would devour all; but I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend</i><br />~Faramir</font><p></p>


created: 2006-07-11 18:46:37
subject: <b>What's all the commotion?</b>
body:
Didn't anyone else notice that its classified as a humorous theory and that the actual wording suggests it is precisely that?  I'll give sidious the benefit of doubt think of it as such, otherwise I'd be forced to conclude that he was either drunk, high, or suffering from the ill affects of lead paint ingestion when he wrote this<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Funny thing about weekends when you're unemployed, they don't mean quite so much...except you get to hang out with your working friends.&quot;<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2006-07-12 09:25:09
subject: <b>So sad..</b>
body:
There goes the love life of many a farm boy... <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/oh.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Oh..and maybe it killed Goodkind's Evil Chicken, too. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>you know you can't leave Wotmania. It's kinda like herpes, you can just never really get rid of it.</i><br />Kit <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /></font><p><a href="http://www.cbgxtra.com/" target="_blank">Comics Buyer's Guide XTRA</a></p><p></p>


created: 2006-07-12 10:49:37
subject: <b>Obvious...</b>
body:
I thought this was obvious. Well, ya got my thumbs up. Not a bad humurous theory.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Egwene must die.<br />Rand Al'Thor will face her wrath...<br />And laugh in her face!</font><p></p>


created: 2006-07-12 10:57:32
subject: <b>Well, according to Chapter 5 of book 7 of paragraph 15 on page 263...</b>
body:
RJ clearly alludes to the fact that Rand tends to overestimate, leading to a vociferous dedicatory blah, blah, blah.<br /><br />It was meant to be humorous, people. And it succeeded. Nice theory.


created: 2006-07-12 11:58:03
subject:
<b>Those poor animals!! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/oh.gif" border="0" /></b>

body:
Funny theory, though. But I fail to grasp how some people might take this seriously..<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perplexed.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/seanchan.gif" border="0" />&quot;Karede frowned. Tylins Toy was the general? Were they playing a game with him?&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/seanchan.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2006-07-12 13:09:48
subject:
<b>This explains all the rancid and spoiled food references. Thank you<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /></b>

body:
Almost got me<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />   But I understand that you are being funny and a theory hasn&#8217;t been posted and a very long time.<br /><br />Thank you for the humor<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />


created: 2006-07-12 16:47:19
subject: <b>A sad ending for the poor farm animals</b>
body:
I knew Loial was right about the cattle.<br /><br />BTW Why is this posted under Humor?<br /><br />Get with it Simon!!!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2006-07-13 13:41:35
subject: <b>The humourous nature of this theory is irrelevant.</b>
body:
Siddy's theories must be destroyed.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>War must be, while we defend our lives against a destroyer who would devour all; but I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend</i><br />~Faramir</font><p></p>


created: 2006-07-13 17:59:48
subject: <b>I must agree with F-T's last comment.</b>
body:
<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/borg.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Warder to Be'lal's Girl<br />Wotmania Lottery<br /><br /><br /><br />&quot;Meh. A good relationship is like fireworks: loud, explosive, and liable to maim you if you hold on too long.&quot; ~ Sven, Questionable Content<br /><br />Bonded by Sidious. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2006-07-13 18:28:57
subject: <b>Man, you really know how to ruin a BBQ!</b>
body:
Now how am I going to be able to enjoy myself at my next 'Q? I'll be thinking about all those starving Tariens, Bandar Ebanians and all the others! They shoulda at least turned all those poor misguided animals into spam!<br /><br />NaCl(yum yum! barbecued spam! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> )H2O <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Any comments on my photos appreciated</font><p><a href="http://saltwater.smugmug.com/" target="_blank">My photos, a work in progress</a></p><p></p>


created: 2006-07-13 18:49:56
subject: <b>Bwahahahahaha!</b>
body:
Valiant chickens! That's the funniest and best oxymoron I've ever heard! Wooooot!!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perplexed.gif" border="0" /> The Not-So-Wise-One? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smackhead.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Linayus <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />&quot;Kneel and swear to the Lord Dragon,&quot; he said softly, &quot;or you will be knelt.&quot; (Was that not the BEST ever? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/w00t.gif" border="0" /> )</font><p></p>


created: 2006-07-13 21:33:11
subject: <b>Theory of the month!!!</b>
body:
Man, I laughed so hard I choked. I won't be able to read that scene again without thinking about it.<br /><br />One of your masterpieces!<br /><br />(and some of the comments above were hilarious too!)<br /><br />Seriously, did you realize for all the brilliant silliness you are right?<br /><br />100,000 Trollocs killing everything on their way from the Spine to the manor <i>did</i> destroy the Tairen backcountry, and the farmers and peasants to work the land. These people feed Tear, that has tons of problems with ressources as it is.<br /><br />Why do you think Min saw a staggering number of people soon dying from starvation in Tear?<br /><br />The attack was a massive disaster for the Light.  One of many to come anywhere massive armies of Shadowspawn show up.<br /><br />But your own explanation was infinitely more entertaining!<br /><br />Keep them coming Sid!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="images/personalsmilies/30778.gif" />Wheel of Time Reference Library : Articles, maps, charts and misc.<img src="images/personalsmilies/30778.gif" /><br /><br /></font><p><a href="http://13depository.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">The Thirteenth Depository - a Wheel of Time Blog</a></p><p></p>


created: 2006-07-14 07:31:04
subject: <b>Ahhh</b>
body:
Stupid AS. Instead of incenerating Trolocs, they should have made Troloc-burgers.<br />It's a surprise how many hungry families you can feed of jus one boar faced Troloc. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Here comes the Aelfinn to steal your bread,<br />here comes the Ogier to chop your head.<br /><br />NUKE THE TAR VALON<br /><br /><b>Wotmania WoTMB Humor Vault: http://www.wotprevod.org/Humor/index.htm</b></font><p></p>


created: 2006-07-14 10:20:55
subject: <b>nice one</b>
body:
First time I voted thumbs up on a theory in months!  You would think a sheepherder would know the differnce in farm animals vs. trollocs.  Ahh, but maybe LTT did not, and he did take control during that disastrous episode.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">May you be successful  in all your projects.<br /><br />I am a pastafarion.  The Flying Spaghetti Monster created the universe, and no one in Kansas can prove me wrong.<br /><br />http://www.vengaza.org</font><p></p>


created: 2006-07-15 13:02:59
subject: <b>great theory,</b>
body:
i really enfoyed reading it.<br /><br />Good job.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Poets have been mysteriously silent on the subject of cheese.&quot;     -G. K. Chesterton<br /> <br />My naked walrus is on fire. <img src="images/personalsmilies/41668.gif" /><br /><br />TEVT: We are back in business! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/w00t.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2006-07-15 18:03:43
subject: <b>Ah Ha Ha Ha</b>
body:
Yeah, <br /><br />I also sure hope that the Chicken-that's-not-a-Chicken was one of the 'helpless' farm animals that were massacred.<br /><br />But, somehow, I think it may have escaped.<br /><br /><br />... Anyone think the screelings were involved? ...<br /><br /><br />Oh, wait, wrong series. That book comes out on the 18th....<br /><br /><br />... waiting ...<br /><br />waiting ...<br /><br />...


created: 2006-07-22 00:59:34
subject: <b>Good theory</b>
body:
But things aren't that bad. Som of the cattle and other animals must have gone through the Deathgates too, so all over the world starving people recieved gifts from the Creator(or so they think), in the form of farm animals. Good to balance the bad...<br /><br />By the way, very funny theory. DomA brought up a good point. Although this isn't a disaster for the whole world, it is a disaster for Tear.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />Proud Vice President of the Egwene Roasters Club<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />&quot;Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups.&quot;<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2006-08-05 21:15:51
subject: <b>The best part was:</b>
body:
&quot;2. They were destroyed because they cannot fight very well, and <i><b>most</b> of them cannot channel either</i>. &quot;<br /><br />Thus is revealed the Shadows ace in the hole at TG: the new army of hatefilled, revenge craving relatives of all the wrongly slain, the horrifying DREADCATTLE!!!  And the Army of the Light will be decimated when they unwittingly poor Balemilk on their Cheerios.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Warder to the unrivalled Rival.  Let the competition (such as it is) fear my wrath!<br /><br /><i>For full disclosure, subtract ~2000 from my CMB views.</i><br /><br />Love can't be coerced.<br /><br />Seek in Joel what goodness God gave me; seek the ill no more, for it and I are dead.</font><p></p>


created: 2006-08-06 03:53:32
subject: <b>mind changing</b>
body:
YOU 60% THAT SAID NO. LISTEN UP. This man has logic running through his mind at optimum levels. I dont know why its listed under the funny section. Sure its funny and all, but IT MAKES SENSE. If you cant agree to what im writing here you need to get out of here, because its true. You here me? TRUE. TRUE. TRUE. End-o-story.


created: 2006-08-06 16:45:44
subject: <b>a riot! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /></b>
body:
my favorite part is at the end: &quot;most of them cannot channel either.&quot;<br /><br />great job. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">hot damn.</font><p></p>


created: 2006-10-21 23:11:35
subject: <b>Good idea</b>
body:
After all, Rand uses a firey sword that won't bind.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>It's not apples and oranges, but no one paying attention could compare these apples without noticing: <br />(a) one is 12 times bigger and <br />(b) both of them are rutabagas.</i></font><p></p>


created: 2008-05-13 11:47:55
subject: <b>???????</b>
body:
so you think that guy had somewhere between 90,000 and 99,000 sheep cows and other live stock on one farm?.... ahhh it could happen <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />


created: 2008-07-29 22:36:28
subject: <b>In respons to the below</b>
body:
&quot;nice one<br />Submitted by bme     on 7/14/2006 10:20:55 AM<br />First time I voted thumbs up on a theory in months! You would think a sheepherder would know the differnce in farm animals vs. trollocs. Ahh, but maybe LTT did not, and he did take control during that disastrous episode.<br /><br /><br />May you be successful in all your projects.<br /><br />I am a pastafarion. The Flying Spaghetti Monster created the universe, and no one in Kansas can prove me wrong.<br /><br />http://www.vengaza.org&quot;<br /><br /><br /><br />What you fail to realize is that the oh so brave chickens (god rest their souls) and other misguided cattle were not as fast as the trollocs so the chickens may have started the charge but the trollocs quickly took the lead and hid the cattle<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I may be crazy but im still more---- OHH SHINY PENNY!<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Fear the ninja smiley<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ninja.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />ohhh pretty fire..Most not touch....OUCH IT BURNS!<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2006-07-17 10:04:37
subject: <b>hmmmm...</b>
body:
That is all.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2006-07-17 10:47:17
subject: <b>wierd......</b>
body:
I don't know, all that nuclear stuff was a little confusing to me.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Poets have been mysteriously silent on the subject of cheese.&quot;     -G. K. Chesterton<br /> <br />My naked walrus is on fire. <img src="images/personalsmilies/41668.gif" /><br /><br />TEVT: We are back in business! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/w00t.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2006-07-17 19:26:56
subject: <b>The Reason Why Callandor Needs 2 Women</b>
body:
This is very simple. In a one man, one woman link, the man leads. While leading, there is nothing to prevent him from drawing more than he possibly can. With two women linked to one man, the woman can link. An intrinsic property of a link is the inability to burn out someone in the link. For example, if Rand linked with someone he disliked, like Elaida, he could not pull through so much saidar through her that he could burn her out.<br /><br />Furthermore, it may be that a stronger link, with more women and men, that the men who is NOT holding callandor may be able to wield the circle safely. Or, it could still be a female, for other unknown reasons.<br /><br />But, that is why 2 women are needed, and not 1, so they can control the circle, and use the intrinsic property of a link so that the man would not get burnt out.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Check out my WoT(ish) fanfic! Tentatively entitled, Sum of All Worlds, join Scimitar the Dreadlord as he begins an epic journey throughout the Worlds!<br /><br />http://www.worldofamadman.com/viewtopic.php?t=1023<br />Four of twelve updates finished.</font><p></p>


created: 2006-07-18 18:09:53
subject: <b>The Reason Why Callandor Needs 2 Women</b>
body:
This is very simple. In a one man, one woman link, the man leads. While leading, there is nothing to prevent him from drawing more than he possibly can. With two women linked to one man, the woman can link. An intrinsic property of a link is the inability to burn out someone in the link. For example, if Rand linked with someone he disliked, like Elaida, he could not pull through so much saidar through her that he could burn her out.<br /><br />Furthermore, it may be that a stronger link, with more women and men, that the men who is NOT holding callandor may be able to wield the circle safely. Or, it could still be a female, for other unknown reasons.<br /><br />But, that is why 2 women are needed, and not 1, so they can control the circle, and use the intrinsic property of a link so that the man would not get burnt out.<br /><br />


created: 2006-07-19 01:30:38
subject: <b>Interesting idea</b>
body:
I like your idea. You explained everything about channeling with your theory. Good job!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />Proud Vice President of the Egwene Roasters Club<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />&quot;Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups.&quot;<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2006-07-19 20:25:37
subject: <b>Interesting</b>
body:
Quite a good theory. I read all of Sideous' theories, and this seems like it is very plausible. Good job.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">The Great Gonzales<br />Captain of the DF Rebellion against Moridin<br />Demandred for Nae'blis!</font><p></p>


created: 2008-05-28 01:33:29
subject: <b>hmm</b>
body:
I say no...there is another theory as to the nature of the taint being a finite amount on top sadin.  and what Rand did was use up the taint kinda thing...its explained better in the theory but I think sadin is smaller then sadar but much more volatile then sadar.


created: 2006-07-22 00:04:33
subject: <b>This seems like a comment more than a theory.</b>
body:
Why didn't you just post this on Siddy's theory's blackboard? There's little enough here worth a new theory. And I'm not very fond of theories that include the phrase <i>&quot;I really don't have much support from the books for this, but the only support needed from the books is common knowledge.&quot;</i><br /><br />As far as I understand this theory, it could be summed up by saying &quot;I agree with Sidious except that I don't think men are perfect conduits.&quot;<br /><br />So really, while I don't see any particular reason to disagree with this theory ( and the One Power not being my specialty, I doubt I will ) I give it a thumbs down if only because it doesn't impress me in any way, nor do I consider it novelty of any kind.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>War must be, while we defend our lives against a destroyer who would devour all; but I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend</i><br />~Faramir</font><p></p>


created: 2006-07-22 03:51:11
subject: <b>as expected I don't agree</b>
body:
Hmm... I'm surprised that the theory was allowed as a challenge without any evidence from the books. Be that as it may, I'm pretty sure you're incorrect here <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />I stated and demonstrated a number of reasons in that theory why women are imperfect conduits for the One Power, and it really wasn't based solely on the glow around them. Here are some key points...<br /><br />1. The more a woman channels the greater the glow. However when she reaches Moghedien strength or higher, then it states that she glows like the sun. Even with Nynaeve and the Choedan Kal it stated that. Therefore the aura doesn't become larger, only brighter until visually you cannot tell the difference. This implies that the woman herself is the resistor, and that the glow is not in the nature of saidar.<br /><br />2. It explains why women can link - the ambient energy allows them to reach out and form a conduit with another channeler. Men are perfect conduits for saidin - and therefore they have no energy to reach out with. When a man and woman link, a woman MUST initiate the link.<br /><br />3. If men and women are equal conduits, then why did the male Choedan Kal survive despite having a much greater amount of the Power flow through it? The reason is that Nynaeve or any woman produces a lot more resistance than a man.<br /><br />4. Saidar is much more detectable than saidin - again, the ambient energy given off by women is clearly demonstrated. <br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">A One Power researcher<br />Defender of Lanfear<br />Grand Ninja-Nae'blis to be feared <br />Original Warder to Isa <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br />New Warder to Nossie <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />Toy to Seriana <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/winky.gif" border="0" /><br />Mystified by a Fan <br />Bonded Phelix - I was young, it happened so fast.</font><p></p>


created: 2006-07-22 11:11:42
subject: <b>makes intuitive sense</b>
body:
I agree with this theory over Sidious' Resistance Theory in at least one area.<br /><br />Men can't possibly be perfect conduits with no resistance because as nettles pointed out, &quot;A perfect conduit would allow all available energy to flow through. Both men and women resist the flow of the Power and allow only a certain amount to pass through.&quot;  Rand is a more perfect conduit than any other channeler, but even Rand does not allow all available energy to flow through him.<br /><br />Also, I absolutely love the analogy of channelers to fuses, and *Angreal to a lower resistance fuses added in parallel.<br /><br />All three of these theories seem to completely neglect the fact that although men channel a higher volume of power, women can do more with the power they wield because of their higher dexterity, does this fit into your theories anywhere?<br /><br />here is the quote from the Weaves and Talents FAQ<br />&quot;Overall, men are stronger in the sheer volume of Power they can handle compared to women and gain strength faster, too (A Crown of Swords, Pitfalls and Tripwires), though there are certainly individual women who have great strength and individual men who are comparatively weak. However, women generally have far greater dexterity in weaving than men, individual differences aside (The World of Robert Jordan&#226;&#8364;&#8482;s The Wheel of Time) and this greater dexterity makes them effectively equivalent to the men (Robert Jordan on his blog)&quot;


created: 2006-07-22 13:55:08
subject: <b>in response to sidious comments</b>
body:
1) I&#8217;m not sure what you mean by saying that the &#8220;aura doesn&#8217;t become larger only brighter.&#8221;  I agree, it does become brighter until you can&#8217;t tell the difference (and I argue that although you can&#8217;t tell the difference it still continues to get brighter), however I believe that the aura also becomes larger.  This is shown when the more of the One Power that is being channeled, the farther away another channeler of the same sex can feel it.  I would say that is an aspect of the aura that grows larger as the woman, in this case, grows brighter. <br /><br />I agree that the glow is not in the nature of Saidar, because otherwise the weaves themselves would glow like the sun, and not the channeler.<br /><br />2) I like your explanation that the ambient energy expressed in the glow around an actively channeling woman allows for women to initiate a link, but I&#8217;m not convinced that the glow is due to her resistance to the power.<br /><br />It could be that linking is possible because Saidar has both cohesive and adhesive properties, whereas Saidin is not cohesive and actually constantly repels itself and everything else, causing violent and chaotic behavior.  Which is why Saidar is described as a river flowing smoothly and Saidin is described as violent and chaotic. But that&#8217;s for another theory.<br /><br />3) The reason why the female Choedan Kal melted is simply because Nynaeve isn&#8217;t anywhere near as strong as Rand.  All channelers have their own level of resistance to the One Power, and Rands is far lower, not because he is a man, but because he is far stronger than Nynaeve.  I am quite sure that if the other woman had been Lanfear the female Choedan Kal would have survived with no problem.<br /><br />4) I agree that Saidar is more detectable, as demonstrated by the fact that male channelers can feel it when a woman channels where conversely women feel nothing when a man channels.  I agree that this is probably due to the ambient energy surrounding them.  There is no proof however that the ambient energy is some sort of lost power or runoff from the channeling woman.  It could easily be that something in nature is attracted to Saidin and gathers in greater and greater quantities the more a woman channels.  <br /><br />*******<br /><br />Since Sidious uses the term &#8220;aura&#8221; to describe the glow around women who are actively channeling, I decided to look it up.  The word &quot;aura&quot; comes from the Greek word for wind, and is used to mean a sensation (seen, smelled, sensed, etc.) that indicates energy or the approach of something not yet perceived.  In the case of a migraine or seizure the aura is seen or smelled and is an indicator that the attack is eminent.  As in indicator of life force or energy, aura is perceived psychically. <br /><br />Also, I feel some objection to the term imperfect when applied to female channelers because it indicates that women are somewhat flawed when it comes to channeling.  This is clearly not true as Robert Jordan has stated (see references to dexterity).


created: 2006-07-23 15:11:05
subject: <b>A question to Gawyn...</b>
body:
<i>3) The reason why the female Choedan Kal melted is simply because Nynaeve isn&#8217;t anywhere near as strong as Rand. All channelers have their own level of resistance to the One Power, and Rands is far lower, not because he is a man, but because he is far stronger than Nynaeve. I am quite sure that if the other woman had been Lanfear the female Choedan Kal would have survived with no problem.</i><br /><br />Pardon me, but if the problem had been Nynaeve's strength, wouldn't <i>Nynaeve</i> be the one who melted, not the Choedan Kal?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>War must be, while we defend our lives against a destroyer who would devour all; but I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend</i><br />~Faramir</font><p></p>


created: 2006-07-23 17:17:52
subject: <b>Responce to Fanatic</b>
body:
The Ter'angreal used to access the Choedan Kal contains a buffer (like almost all Sa'angreals we have heard of) that keeps from burning out (or melting) the channeler using the Sa'angreal.  There was a great strain on this buffer because of the vast amount of power being channeled and the very great difference between Rand and Nynaeve's relative strengths.  I think that Rand was trying his hardest to pull as much of the power as possible, so all of the strain came down on the buffer to keep from burning out Nynaeve.  I think in the end the strain caused both the Sa'angreal and the access key to melt.


created: 2006-07-23 18:49:47
subject: <b>Rand and Nynaeve's strength not the most important factor</b>
body:
When the female CK melted, much more of saidin was being channeled, relative to Rand and Nyn's strengths than saidar. The Aes Sedai described it as &quot;Dragonmount beside a foothill&quot;. This implies almost as great a power difference as the Aes Sedai could imagine. Even leaving room for exaggeration to emphasize their point; Rand is not THAT much stronger than Nynaeve. I'm not sure he is that much stronger than Sorilea. Based on the relative strengths of Rand and Nynaeve AND the relative amounts of the each Power used, then, unless I misunderstand your theory, I would calculate  the male Choedan Kal should have melted first. <br />To put is more clearly, relatively speaking,  Nynaeve ran with a pebble on her back until she collapsed while Rand ran faster with a 5-story building on his back and lasted longer.<br />Have I misunderstood?


created: 2006-07-23 21:08:13
subject: <b>Huh?</b>
body:
And how would you go about 'straining' a <i>sa'angreal</i>? You draw as much as you can, or you don't. I don't really get why Rand would try sucking more <i>saidar</i> once it's stopped coming. he's used <i>angreal</i> and <i>sa'angreal</i> before, he knows that you can't squeeze more by pushing.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>War must be, while we defend our lives against a destroyer who would devour all; but I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend</i><br />~Faramir</font><p></p>


created: 2006-07-23 23:19:47
subject: <b>Using Sa'angreal</b>
body:
To Beca, I believe that Rand was attempting to use relatively equal amounts of saidin and saidar.  <br /><br />Are you saying that Rand was using so much more saidin than saidar that it was &quot;Dragonmount beside a foothill?&quot;  <br /><br />Here is a quote from Cadsuane about Nynaeve:<br /><br />&quot;... [because of the buffer, Nynaeve] would be buffered against taking in enough of the power to damage her.  Except that she was acting as a conduit for far more of saidar than the entire White Tower could have handled using every angreal and sa'angreal the Tower possessed.&quot; (p. 651, WH)<br /><br />Like I said, I believe that Rand was using nearly equal amounts of saidin and saidar.  The more saidar he used to form the &quot;tube,&quot; the more saidin he could push through it.  Here is the quote:<br /><br />&quot;He drew more deeply on both halves of the source, strenthening the conduit as he forced more of saidin into it, drew on the Power until nothing he did would bring more.&quot;  (p. 638, WH)<br /><br />This says that he was pulling the max amount of both, and nowhere in the books have I found that it says that he used more of one or the other.  I agree that Rand is not vastly stronger than Nynaeve, just that he is a good amount stronger.  I don't know where you got your &quot;Dragonmount beside a foothill,&quot; quote but I'm almost positive that it does not refer to the amount of saidin vs. saidar being used.<br /><br />To Fanatic, I agree with you that you can't squeeze more out of an angreal by pushing, but that was not my point.  <br /><br />The reason I think that the *angreals melted is because Rand was trying to pull equal amounts of both saidar and saidin, but he couldn't pull as much saidar as saidin because Nynaeve would be burnt out.  This is where the CK's buffer comes in.  Rand tries to pull equal amounts of the power in the amount that he is naturally able to pull.  Nynaeve can't handle as much as he can, so the CK's buffer kicks in to provide a barrier to saidar and prevent Rand from pulling enough to kill Nynaeve.  The resulting strain on the buffer eventually melts the female Choedan Kal.


created: 2006-07-24 17:20:03
subject: <b>the last post explains...</b>
body:
why nynaeve was crying 'no more' and needed cadusane's healing. if rand had continued after the CK melted would nynaeve have died?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">BBM &lt;3 LTT<br /><br />In fire there is the spark of chaos and destruction and the seed of life. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />In ice there is perfect tranquility, perfect order and the silence of death.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/clonetrooper.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2006-07-24 18:30:47
subject: <b>Drawing from another person while linked</b>
body:
I'm not sure what would happen, but I don't think Nynaeve would have been burnt out.  Here is a quote on linking from The Path of Daggers.  Nynaeve is teaching the Windfinders how to link so that they can fix the weather:<br /><blockquote>Now, don't fear that whoever leads the circle ... can make you draw too much.  This really is a great deal like an <i>angreal</i>.  The <i>angreal</i> buffers you against the extra Power, and in somewhat the same way, in a circle you can't be made to draw too much.  In fact in a circle you can't draw quite as much as you can [otherwise](p. 122, TPoD).</blockquote><br />Here is the scenario.  Two people are linked (I don't think the gender matters).  One person has an angreal or sa'angreal and begins the link by drawing through it.  The person using the angreal is NOT the person in control.<br /><br />What happens if for some reason the angreal breaks before channeling can stop?  From the above quote I believe that if Rand had continued to channel after the ter'angreal had melted, there would have been an abrupt drop in the amount of saidar that was available to him, but it would not have harmed Nynaeve.


created: 2006-07-24 20:20:48
subject: <b>Except by your arguments...</b>
body:
By 'trying' to drawn more <i>saidar</i>, Rand could have burnt out Nynaeve by 'eroding' the buffer formed  by the link.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>War must be, while we defend our lives against a destroyer who would devour all; but I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend</i><br />~Faramir</font><p></p>


created: 2006-07-25 06:04:28
subject: <b>Hmmm....</b>
body:
There is no evidence that a weaker channeler would place <i>more</i> stress on a sa'angreal. It could easily be the opposite. When Jahar uses Callandor its glow is far less pronounced than when Rand uses it. If the glow is <i>anything</i> to go by, then Rand is increasing the burden on the sa'angreal far more than Jahar. Lanfear might well have caused the statue to melt at a greater rate.<br /><br />Verin said that the Choedan Kal would destroy any man or woman not strong enough to use it. Nynaeve was unharmed even though the sa'angreal melted. In fact, I think that the sa'angreal wasn't harmed at all - merely the physical statues. The buffers remained intact, and thus the reason why Nynaeve didn't go nuclear or die immediately. We know that you don't need to be in direct contact with an angreal or sa'angreal to use it. I think this, plus evidence of the Cleansing, proves that sa'angreal increase the strength in the Power of the channeler until the channeler releases the Source. You might be able to destroy the angreal or sa'angreal and the link will be unaffected. In short, the object might just be a symbolic link to a metaphysical phenomenon which it helps establish. Strange how Osan'gar thinks that the CK will be destroyed if he balefires Rand. The two become linked. Destroying the statue might do nothing - but destroying the channeler will destroy both.<br /><br />You can overdraw with an angreal or sa'angreal - Rand overdraws when using the Portal Stone and the angreal, and Elayne also mentions that she could overdraw with her angreal while facing Taim.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">A One Power researcher<br />Defender of Lanfear<br />Grand Ninja-Nae'blis to be feared <br />Original Warder to Isa <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br />New Warder to Nossie <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />Toy to Seriana <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/winky.gif" border="0" /><br />Mystified by a Fan <br />Bonded Phelix - I was young, it happened so fast.</font><p></p>


created: 2006-07-25 12:44:17
subject: <b>Another case</b>
body:
It seems to me that last queen of Manetheren somehow could turn off buffer from her sa'angreal. (Naturally assuming that she was using one.) Or that thing simply didn't have a buffer. Or I think that Manetheren died bc she tried to channel too much Saidar.


created: 2006-07-26 15:12:11
subject: <b>destruction of manetheren</b>
body:
You bring up an interesting example, here is the quote from <u>The World of Robert Jordan's the Wheel of Time</u>:<br /><blockquote>[Queen Eldrene] reached out to the True Source, surely aided by a sa'angreal, to hunt down the victors, and supposedly sent balefire to consume the Dreadlords, Myrddraal, and Darfriends where they stood.  But the effort required more Power than anyone could wield unaided, and she and the city of Manetheren died in flames.</blockquote><br /><br />This is a troubling quote for a couple reasons.<br /><ol><br /> <li>If the sa'angreal Eldrene used did have a buffer, as almost all do, then she wouldn't have been able to pull more power than she could safely wield, so the pulling of too much power would not have been the cause of her death.  However you can still kill yourself (and everyone around you) if you are channeling using and sa'angreal with a buffer ... if you create an invironment around you that is too hostile to survive.  If she created a raging inferno that caused everyone in the city of Manetheren to die in flames, then most likely she would die too, even though she didn't burn herself out.</li><br /><li>The second toubling part to me is the mention of balefire.  From what we have seen of balefire, it causes things to simply ceace to exist not go up in flames.  Balefire is also potentially troubling because if killed the victors, then those actions would have been undone and her husband may have been brought back, a la Mat in The Fires of Heaven.</li></ol><br />I do think it possible that the person who wrote this book, Teresa Patterson (I suspect that Jordan was only minimally involved), may have made a couple errors here.  <br /><br />Of course, it is possible that Queen Eldrene was using a sa'angreal that didn't have a buffer.  I though, strongly resist the idea that you could &quot;turn the buffer off.&quot;  In the end, I think she died simply because she destroyed all of Manatherin and herself with it, not because she channeled more than she could handle.<br />


created: 2006-07-28 22:24:05
subject: <b>back on topic</b>
body:
the original theory regarded male/female channeler resistance, not that of *angreals.  So...<br /><br />I though about this for some time, and the only thing that I could come up with that had not been already said, was that if women are equally good conductors of the OP, with the same levels of resistance, then why is the average man more powerful?  I say that there are two explanations<br /><br />1)Women, are imperfect conductors to a higher degree then men are.  Men are still not perfect however, as reasons already discussesd (such as heat and the like) have already shown.<br /><br />2)We are looking at the nature of the power completely incorrectly by applying it to the ideas behind modern day technology and electricity, which very well may not exist in RJ's world(I for one have always thought that the items in the AoL were powered not by electricity or RL means at all, but by these &quot;permanent weaves&quot; which have been discussed in the books, I think when Moghedien was a prisoner but im not sure)<br /><br />summary:<br />Two possibilities.  Men and women are both imperfect but women are imperfect (on average) to a greater degree then maen are (on average).  Second possibility is that the strength in the OP has nothing to do with resistance, and the glow/heat also has nothing to do with it.  If the later is true, then we have all just been looking at it the wrong way.


created: 2006-07-31 10:22:06
subject: <b>Lightning in jars</b>
body:
I think neither men nor women are perfect conductors for the Power, but women are, on average, more resistant.<br /><br />And your second possible explanation can't be true. There was a man at Rand's school in Cairhien who was trapping lightning in jars. Rand first thought he must be channeling, but was informed that it had nothing to do with the Power. This is an early experiment with electricity.


created: 2006-08-06 19:15:21
subject: <b>heat?</b>
body:
&quot;I'm sure everyone remembers that both male and female channelers experience a sensation of heat from channeling the Power, and the women see a glow around each other, so I will regard these as given.&quot;  <br /><br />That's a rather assumptive statement.  How can it be that I've read the books at least 5 times and don't recall that channelers experience a sensation of heat from channeling?? That would imply they would have a harder time ignoring heat and easier ignoring cold, but I can't recall a single time a channeler thought anything like that.  They think of the True Source as being &quot;like a warm glow&quot;, but I don't think that implys they feel heat.<br /><br />Can anyone site supporting references?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /> Survivor of Historical Inquizition ... barely <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Who can say if I've been changed for the better, but because I knew you I have been changed for good -- Wicked<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2006-08-14 07:31:07
subject: <b>i agree with dilirah</b>
body:
I agree with dilirah, and I think that the assumption that channelers feel heat is a major weakness of the resistance theories.  I don't recall any mention of channelers experiancing heat other than &quot;the warm glow&quot; which I always interpreted as the pleasure of being filled with the Power.  According to the resistance theory, during some of the major channeling events we have seen, such as the battle between Rand and Lanfear (TFoH, choices), fixing the weather with the bowl of winds (TPoD, The Breaking Storm), or the cleansing of the source, potentially very large amounts of heat would be generated, especially in the women.   However, if you read these passages, not one mention of heat exists.


created: 2006-08-27 22:31:43
subject: <b>Right.</b>
body:
The warm glow is what I'm talking about. I never meant that the heat was real, physical heat in the way we see it, any more than the glow is real, physical light. But both are produced when the Power is channeled.


created: 2007-02-15 18:25:53
subject: <b>Makes sense to me</b>
body:
That last bit about angreals seemed like a particularly good analogy to me, but maybe that's just because I used to a lot of electronics work at college... <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />It seems to me that the very fact that male channelers can sense each other holding the power at all shows that <i>some</i> energy must be getting dissipated, so males are probably imperfect conductors too... just because they don't perceive the wasted energy as <i>light</i> doesn't necessarily mean that it's not there, after all.


created: 2007-12-16 22:26:58
subject: <b><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/clap.gif" border="0" /></b>
body:
This is very well put together!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I'm a Domani Drag Queen who went to the Black tower.  Leane is my 3rd cousin twice removed and I showed her how to use make-up!<br /><br />I don't deal in absolutes or spell check!</font><p></p>


created: 2006-08-02 05:52:00
subject: <b>Much as I hate to point this out...</b>
body:
but doesn't this violate rule number one?  IIRC, this has been posted before.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


created: 2006-08-02 06:25:06
subject: <b>Not on the TP.</b>
body:
Only on the WOT board where it is particularly suggested that one try out one's theories. So you got it quite wrong. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> Linda Sedai <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Proud member of the Embroiderer's Guild of the White Tower<br /><br /><b><font color="red">FAQ admin</font></b> </font>'cos the FAQ is where it's at.<br /><br /><b>Currently working on:</b> my 70th FAQ<p><a href="http://13depository.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">The thirteenth depository : A Wheel of Time blog</a></p><p></p>


created: 2006-08-02 09:03:19
subject: <b>I can't believe that this got posted!!</b>
body:
Where are your quotes? What evidence have you cited? How does this tie in with Rand's lost hand? I'm sorry but I have to vote &quot;no&quot; - I just can't see how this theory works, maybe you could post an update with diagrams?


created: 2006-08-02 09:05:19
subject: <b>Sorry but maybe I should</b>
body:
have included some emoticons or such. The above was of course me taking the p*ss. I really did enjoy it.<br /><br />MD


created: 2006-08-03 01:27:32
subject: <b>Lol</b>
body:
Love this post <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">A One Power researcher<br />Defender of Lanfear<br />Grand Ninja-Nae'blis to be feared <br />Original Warder to Isa <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br />New Warder to Nossie <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />Toy to Seriana <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/winky.gif" border="0" /><br />Mystified by a Fan <br />Bonded Phelix - I was young, it happened so fast.</font><p></p>


created: 2006-08-03 09:33:00
subject: <b>Great theory</b>
body:
This is the first theory in ages that I gave a thumbs up!  Plus, you also get the bonus, and highly coveted, WOT stock exchange points!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">May you be successful  in all your projects.<br /><br />I am a pastafarion.  The Flying Spaghetti Monster created the universe, and no one in Kansas can prove me wrong.<br /><br />http://www.vengaza.org</font><p></p>


created: 2006-08-03 23:03:28
subject: <b>Quite agree</b>
body:
Alas that the last 2 theories hadn't read this... <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/frown.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;These guys are special... These are crack soldiers... They are everywhere&#8230;yes, they really have us by our balls here&#8230; Can you get us out of here?&#8221;<br />Zarqawi about 3/504 PIR</font><p></p>


created: 2006-08-04 15:30:18
subject: <b>The Encore is great.</b>
body:
Hoped it would make it back to the MB, but this is better. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2006-08-09 11:27:26
subject: <b>Heh,</b>
body:
sweet. I agree.<br /><br />I entered a theory once... then wondered why it didnt get in. i looked back at it, and realized it did, infact, pretty much suck. now i see, it also followed your, ahem, guidlines.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">-Sabin<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2006-08-10 18:35:01
subject: <b>Found one that violates some rule pretty badly.</b>
body:
I can't be bothered to check which one though.<br /><br />Here it is<br /><br />&lt;link&gt;http://www.wotmania.com/theorypostdbtheory.asp?ID=404&amp;Category=Daughter&lt;?link&gt;<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>It's not apples and oranges, but no one paying attention could compare these apples without noticing: <br />(a) one is 12 times bigger and <br />(b) both of them are rutabagas.</i></font><p></p>


created: 2006-08-14 18:13:18
subject:
<b>This looks familiar.... <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /></b>

body:
mostly because I did a search for it just recently to put in a link to a thread that was searching for theory information. Anyway, I think this is a <i>must read</i> for anyone interested in submitting a theory and hoping to actually getting it posted.<br /><br />Thunmbs up!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2006-09-16 10:13:19
subject: <b>My skill...</b>
body:
Is so great I once sent a theory that hit all of those points.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Egwene must die.<br />Rand Al'Thor will face her wrath...<br />And laugh in her face!</font><p></p>


created: 2007-02-23 18:57:05
subject: <b>hey</b>
body:
when I not to follow those rules then my theory isn't posted, mabye i should try to follow them.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br />dancing with death is painful<br />dancing with women can be much the same


created: 2007-11-23 12:59:23
subject: <b>this is unacceptable</b>
body:
now eveyone knos the secret and there will be an upswell in illogical unusable theories. think of all the pros who honed the technique of writing drivel, now anyone with a word processor can do this. you have sullied a noble art.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;I look pretty young, but I'm just back dated&quot; The Who</font><p><a href="http://www.myspace.com/jefflewisband" target="_blank">My New Favourite Music Person</a></p><p></p>


created: 2006-08-08 18:38:24
subject: <b>Nice</b>
body:
I did not know how or who would intervene to help defeat the shadow forces attacking the WT, but I like your idea on the Seanchan actually helping them.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Awaiting the attack on the White Tower, and the Red's demise. <br />Hope RJ releases tid-bits of book 12, before three years passes us by            <br />   -LOS <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /> <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2006-08-08 23:46:02
subject: <b>I like the idea</b>
body:
This is well-reasoned and seems very much along the line of some of the interactions between Demandred, Mesaana, and Semhirage in the LOC.  One critique however, although one with little bearing on the guts of the theory.  I'd be careful saying that the White Tower has remained unbreached since its formation.  Siuan notes that Shadowspawn burned and looted part of the tower during the Trolloc Wars when discussing the secret histories with Egwene.  If I remember correctly, one or more False Dragon armies breached the walls of Tar Valon, if not the White Tower itself as well.  That is actually one of the reasons that I think this theory is on the right track.  The tower has proven vulnerable in the past, even at full strength, to large forces and those armed with channelers.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Funny thing about weekends when you're unemployed, they don't mean quite so much...except you get to hang out with your working friends.&quot;<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2006-08-10 01:38:13
subject: <b>AWWWWWW MAN!!!!</b>
body:
Why the heck did you have to go write such a good theory and get me pumped about aMoL? now 3 years is gonna drag by.<br /><br />Thumbs down for that! (jk)<br /><br />I like this theory a lot!<br /><br /><br /><br />That is all.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2006-08-11 19:50:56
subject: <b>good ideas, but not so sure</b>
body:
One of your main arguments rests on the fact that the shadow knows that the seanchean will attack the WT. I disagree.<br /><br />For one thing, at the Forsaken garden party, neither Aran'gar nor Mesaana mention the seanchean in their talk about keeping the tower powrful enough to stand against the rebels. I find it hard to imagine that Semirhage's position in the seanchean world is that strong, especially since she's captured (unless that's part of her insanely detailed plan). I can't see both sides of the AS conflict being so well-orchestrated by the Forsaken, yet constantly under consideration, without some apprehensions about the seanchean's role in the matter. If the Forsaken don't know about it, then how would Taim know about it? We know about the seanchean because of hints in the descriptions; Egwene is a dreamer, and so she knows; however, we don't know that the BA knows, unless Egwene's message to Elaida about the seanchean was picked up and accepted as a battle plan by the BA. Are the BA, Mesaana, and at least Aran'gar all gonna change their plans based on the warning of a possible dreamer? There's just no evidence that the shadow know about the seanchean plot to attack the WT.<br /><br />Secondly, you mention Tuon. Tuon will play a large role, but I disagree with you on exactly what role. I was under the impression that Egeanin was the seanchean in Egwene's dream, since she carries a sword and knows the secret between channelers that are born with the spark and those that can be taught. Tuon doesn't have any descriptions with a sword, nor is she really someone set up to ruin the seanchean.<br /><br />On my own note about Tuon's role, I believe that she'll attack the WT during the war between the rebels and the tower aes sedai. That outside force will unify the two camps of AS, something that the shadow would never want or try to plan for, and will cause everyone to see that Egwene is a true leader. Egwene is inside the tower, but would never leave it (due to her crusade to save it from the inside), but the threat of the seanchean will cause her to leave the tower (travel) so  that she can save it from the outside force. I think that this will happen because of Mat's choice concerning AS. At the end of KoD, he watches Tuon leave his camp and thinks that with his luck, the next time he would meet his wife, they would be on opposite sides of the battlefield. Then, there's the whole thing about Mat having to make a choice between two AS. I think it possible that that could be Egwene and his wife (though not an AS at the time she can channel). His decision, doing the right thing helping Egwene over helping his wife, will affect the whole world.<br /><br />Sorry to talk so long, but I thought it necessary to explain why I think Tuon's role isn't how you portrayed it. I don't think that the shadow wanted the seanchean to attack the WT. But I like your idea about the circles and men channeling.


created: 2006-08-12 12:23:48
subject: <b>Nicely done</b>
body:
I have only one bone to pick with you on all of this. I KNOW I read somewhere on this sight that all Egwene saw in the sky was a bat. I'll go check the QoWs and blog for the quote and I'll respond here if I can find it. If I don't, just assume I didn't find it. I think that I what I like most about the theory in general is the make on Alviarin's forehead. I didn't make sense to me before as to why it was there, but it makes perfect sense. I find this plan to be very likely. And i bore a hole brought up a point of lack of knowledge of the Seanchan plan to attack to tower by the Forsaken. I think that this knowledge to NOT be in the Forsaken's hands would show that Semirhage is not to intelligent or Suroth is not really a Darkfriend. Throughout the series, Semi is portrayed as working in alliance with Messanna as well, which would allow Messy to know of the attack beforehand and plan according to it. I assume that Semi would know of this mainly because she dealt directly with Suroth on a few occasions. As Suroth is the leader of the return... remember, the higher ranking general NEVER seized control of the return, nor did Tuon until she stripped Suroth of rank... I would assume she would know of what they would consider the largest battle of the Return. Overall, I give this theory a 6 out of 5. My bat comment was just my over retentive attention to detail that I get sometimes.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Egwene must die.<br />Rand Al'Thor will face her wrath...<br />And laugh in her face!</font><p></p>


created: 2006-08-12 12:41:23
subject: <b>Quote</b>
body:
Found it. &quot;Oh, yes, just to settle an argument that seems to be ongoing, Egwene saw a bat, guys. After Falme, she could recognize the long sweeping wingstrokes of a raken or to'raken, and she knows a bat when she sees one. Bats really do flutter, to confirm those who have pointed this out.&quot; This was in his blog, pre KoD. Honestly, that was the only thing in this that struck me as wrong. And since this is really unimportant to the theory itself, it is just my over-retentive attention to detail.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Egwene must die.<br />Rand Al'Thor will face her wrath...<br />And laugh in her face!</font><p></p>


created: 2006-08-12 17:33:15
subject: <b>Another thing</b>
body:
I assume that Mat has already made his choice between 2 AS when he decided to meet and save Teslyn. After all very few men would want to save (or ever meet) Red sister. But if Mat did not liberate Teslyn he would not have ever captured Tuon and Tuon would have died when Semi wiped out Imperial family. Besides he would not have started Great Escape. Or Athan Miere would not have been able to start their rebellion and escape from ED if Mat would have saved only Joline and her warders. Neither he would not have ever became member of Imperial family....<br /><br />Or if M had &quot;chosen&quot; Joline instead of Teslyn consequences to world would have been very nasty.


created: 2006-08-12 18:58:12
subject: <b>On the last comment,</b>
body:
this is somewhat disputable, but I tend to think that the two Aes Sedai on the balance scale refers to Teslyn and Edesina.  Egwene's dream does not necessarily indicate that the two Aes Sedai are being weighed against each other.  They could be on the same side of the balance scale, being weighed against something else, in the this case the difficulty and danger of trying to free two damane from the stables.  As the last comment said, if Mat had not decided to free them, he would not have ended up with Tuon in the current story line since he would have never been in the damane kennels. <br /><br />On another previous comment, the Aes Sedai on the balance scales cannot be Tuon for the following reason.  Egwene recognizes the two women as Aes Sedai, seeing either their rings or more likely, their ageless faces.  Tuon could not be mistaken for an Aes Sedai unless you believe that Egwene sensed the ability to channel in her dream.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Funny thing about weekends when you're unemployed, they don't mean quite so much...except you get to hang out with your working friends.&quot;<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2006-08-13 13:53:46
subject: <b>I agree</b>
body:
except for Tiam's involvement... I think asha'man fighting the WT too would be a complete and total route with no survivors.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Fortune rides like the sun on high<br />with the fox that makes the ravens fly.<br />Luck his soul, the lightning his eye,<br />He snatches the moons from out the sky.&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2006-08-21 01:27:26
subject: <b>bloody brilliant!</b>
body:
i love it it tied together so many loose ends and gives the credit to Mrdin (as is his due) i think it makes lines up perfectly witht the shots we get of the forsaken. well written and well researched thumb up to you!


created: 2006-08-22 23:44:01
subject: <b>I voted yes</b>
body:
But don't agree with all the details.  Still, a good job deserving of a thumbs up.<br /><br />I agree/was immpressed with the comment that said that the D.O. forces might not know about the Seanchan attack (Boy, talk about a four cornered battle!)<br /><br />Other quibbles.<br /><br />But still....<br /><br />


created: 2007-03-04 04:49:31
subject: <b>Questions</b>
body:
<br />How are you going to get so many Shadowsporn past the border lands and all the way to Tar Valon with no one knowing?<br /><br />I dont think you'd be able to get them through the ways, or at least not in numbers enough to have any realistic effect on the battle.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Duty above all, including life, love, and personal honor.&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2006-08-09 11:20:33
subject: <b>Maybe adding a little something</b>
body:
What if the thing Cadsuane needs to teach them is taught by her dying? Her sacrificing herself in order to give the lads something they need? Might make for a better read than her giving then a lecture on laughing.


created: 2006-08-09 11:41:46
subject: <b>One thing...</b>
body:
Taim was never Stilled/Severed/Gentled. Logain was.<br /><br />Other than that, I like it. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Warder to Be'lal's Girl<br />Wotmania Lottery<br /><br /><br /><br />&quot;Meh. A good relationship is like fireworks: loud, explosive, and liable to maim you if you hold on too long.&quot; ~ Sven, Questionable Content<br /><br />Bonded by Sidious. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2006-08-09 12:03:47
subject: <b>Good thoghts..but I had to vote no..</b>
body:
I see Semirhage as being the one to kill CAds...after many a questioning that pulls lots of new webs out of Semi(Ny will also be involved) ...and Semi will take Cads out before she escapes...and this might also be when Elza reveals she is Black Ajah.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>you know you can't leave Wotmania. It's kinda like herpes, you can just never really get rid of it.</i><br />Kit <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /></font><p><a href="http://www.cbgxtra.com/" target="_blank">Comics Buyer's Guide XTRA</a></p><p></p>


created: 2006-08-09 12:06:04
subject: <b>Who knows how or when</b>
body:
It would be much easier for someone to simply use a conventional weapon.<br /><br />I toy with the idea it could be Feril (Elza`s Warder) who kills Cadsuane and Bashere. It is Elza`s intention to have him kill those she decides must die.<br /><br />Taim`s animosity is against all AS, but he might have specific desires against those who captured him, and we have no POV suggesting such.<br /><br />Too bad there is no EDIT for TP.<br /><br />Taim was not Gentled.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2006-08-09 12:58:51
subject: <b>Nice theory</b>
body:
I agree that her death will bring about Rand's tears. However, I'm not so sure about the manner of her death.<br /><br />I wouldn't be surprised if she fell down dead in front of Rand from old age. He would cry at the loss of one of his only true allies.<br /><br />I wonder if she CAN be harmed with all those ter'angreal? Cyndane managed to get something through to Alivia, but I still wonder if Taim could harm Cadsuane?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">A One Power researcher<br />Defender of Lanfear<br />Grand Ninja-Nae'blis to be feared <br />Original Warder to Isa <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br />New Warder to Nossie <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />Toy to Seriana <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/winky.gif" border="0" /><br />Mystified by a Fan <br />Bonded Phelix - I was young, it happened so fast.</font><p></p>


created: 2006-08-09 13:07:10
subject: <b><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perplexed.gif" border="0" /></b>
body:
Ermmm...<br /><br /><i>Mazrim Taim, of course, hates all Aes Sedai, and who can blame him, seen as how they were <b><u>about</u></b> to gentle him?</i><br /><br />Did I make another reference to Taim being gentled? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perplexed2.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />The point of bringing captured male channellers to teh Tower is to gentle them, no?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>War must be, while we defend our lives against a destroyer who would devour all; but I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend</i><br />~Faramir</font><p></p>


created: 2006-08-09 13:42:44
subject: <b><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/oh.gif" border="0" /></b>
body:
I did. And I even used the term <i>stilling</i>.<br /><br />I have <i>toh</i>.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>War must be, while we defend our lives against a destroyer who would devour all; but I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend</i><br />~Faramir</font><p></p>


created: 2006-08-09 14:31:41
subject: <b>Yeah, I assumed you meant captured, not stilled.</b>
body:
Other than that it's an appealing theory, though conveniently vague about just HOW she'll die.... <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> I also like the idea of her death itself being the learning experience for the Asha'man.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Warder to the unrivalled Rival.  Let the competition (such as it is) fear my wrath!<br /><br /><i>For full disclosure, subtract ~2000 from my CMB views.</i><br /><br />Love can't be coerced.<br /><br />Seek in Joel what goodness God gave me; seek the ill no more, for it and I are dead.</font><p></p>


created: 2006-08-09 14:50:43
subject: <b>Goddamn that would be cool</b>
body:
Cadsuane standing alone on a desolate hill. The weaves of gateways still hung in the air from where Rand had departed for Shayol Ghul.<br />The wind picks up, but it doesn't seem to touch her, and the camera pans around slowly to shown the black Asha'man legions walking towards her, Taim at the lead.<br />It begins.....<br /><br /><br /><br />You know, i think if anything that cool were to happen i would probably forgive her foreverything. It would be so cool, the asha'man try to get to her quickly, but she starts swiping them out of the way, forming a sheild of air to stop their attacks, driving them aside (think Sauron at the great battle in the LOTR film), her teams of men stoppers have all otherwise been defeated, shes lost many good friends and allies in her attempt to keep Rand safe...<br /><br /><br />I shudder at the thought.<br />Shudder in vicious joy.<br /><br />Sadly i don't think it would happen, its too cool <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/frown.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Member of the FF<br />Wartherder to Delectable Deadsy<br />Warder to Indredible Isa<br />Bonded to Super Seriana<br />Brilliant BGs warder reborn<br />Stonger than sidious<br />Ravs bigger better bro<br />Semi-demi-Admin (M2K said so!)<br />Our very own Mat <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2006-08-09 14:56:52
subject: <b>As long that it's</b>
body:
painful, it's OK.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Here comes the Aelfinn to steal your bread,<br />here comes the Ogier to chop your head.<br /><br />NUKE THE TAR VALON<br /><br /><b>Wotmania WoTMB Humor Vault: http://www.wotprevod.org/Humor/index.htm</b></font><p></p>


created: 2006-08-09 23:04:17
subject: <b>I think it's a lock ....</b>
body:
as far as her dying. Like sidious though, it's the how, I'm not sure of.<br /><br />Perhaps there'll be a repeat scene of Perrin walking in on Moiraine, except this time it'll be Rand and the Asha'man walking in on a naked Cadsuane. Caddy dies of mortification, and I'm fairly certain none of the male channelers will like learning that the Aes Sedai &quot;ageless look&quot; only applies to the face. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2006-08-10 09:58:32
subject: <b>So what is the theory?</b>
body:
Is it that she will die, or that Taim will kill her?  While I agree that she is a likely candidate for death, I do not see much evidence for a prediction that Taim will be her killer.  We have no evidence that he will come looking for her specifically.  If there is a confrontation at the Black Tower, then I suppose you could argue that Taim and crew take her out.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">May you be successful  in all your projects.<br /><br />I am a pastafarion.  The Flying Spaghetti Monster created the universe, and no one in Kansas can prove me wrong.<br /><br />http://www.vengaza.org</font><p></p>


created: 2006-08-10 16:35:34
subject: <b>To Light in The Night...</b>
body:
ewwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww<br /><br /><br />You have been turned...haven't ya? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>you know you can't leave Wotmania. It's kinda like herpes, you can just never really get rid of it.</i><br />Kit <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /></font><p><a href="http://www.cbgxtra.com/" target="_blank">Comics Buyer's Guide XTRA</a></p><p></p>


created: 2006-08-10 18:14:50
subject: <b>Yea....</b>
body:
that's a pretty unsettlinging picture, even for me. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />OTOH, maybe she'll be freed from the 3 oaths somehow, and end up looking 1/3 of her age. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2006-08-10 18:47:35
subject: <b>1/3 her age?</b>
body:
So she'll only look 100?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>War must be, while we defend our lives against a destroyer who would devour all; but I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend</i><br />~Faramir</font><p></p>


created: 2006-08-11 11:53:52
subject: <b>100 for a channeler...</b>
body:
is approx. 30s or 40s, right?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Warder to Be'lal's Girl<br />Wotmania Lottery<br /><br /><br /><br />&quot;Meh. A good relationship is like fireworks: loud, explosive, and liable to maim you if you hold on too long.&quot; ~ Sven, Questionable Content<br /><br />Bonded by Sidious. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2006-08-11 13:43:09
subject: <b>I already did the division by three.</b>
body:
She's near dying, remember? Oldest Aes Sedai alive. I don't know where I came up with the number 300 though, since asking a Sister about her age is so frowned upon.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>War must be, while we defend our lives against a destroyer who would devour all; but I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend</i><br />~Faramir</font><p></p>


created: 2006-08-11 14:09:57
subject: <b>She's around 300</b>
body:
so she'll be in her middle years like Mesaana.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">A One Power researcher<br />Defender of Lanfear<br />Grand Ninja-Nae'blis to be feared <br />Original Warder to Isa <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br />New Warder to Nossie <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />Toy to Seriana <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/winky.gif" border="0" /><br />Mystified by a Fan <br />Bonded Phelix - I was young, it happened so fast.</font><p></p>


created: 2006-08-23 10:19:27
subject: <b>Nicely done</b>
body:
From my point of view, most everything you speculated about appears perfectly logical, and your conclusion seems appropriate. <br /><br /><b>&quot;In summation, I believe the inability of Trollocs and other Shadowpawn to pass through a gateway and survive is a side effect of their unnatural existence and dependence of that existence on a continued connection to the Dark One.&quot;</b><br /><br />Earlier in the theory you stated that the distortions of the Pattern caused by gateways, and the unnatural makeup of the Shadowspawn was responsible for their inability to survive Traveling. In your conclusion, you infer that being out of direct contact with the Dark One's power would also cause their death.<br /><br />Could just the passage through a gateway, even for that minute amount of time, also sever this connection to the DO and be what kills them? (Just a thought)<br /><br /><b>&quot;....there has been no other known instance of the taint similarly affecting any other work of male channelers.&quot;</b><br /><br />While not conclusive, the seals were most likely made by men since the women refused to join LTT's plan. It appears prolonged contact with the TP, (the source of the taint), has weakened them.<br /><br />Other than that, I have no disagreements. Thumbs up from me.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2006-08-23 14:11:13
subject: <b>Thumbs up!!</b>
body:
Excellent work.<br /><br />I had something similar in mind..but nowhere near as detailed. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />And this also adds to Nicola's Foretelling.. &quot;the last battle done...the world not done with battle..&quot; The AS and Ashaman will still have the Seanchen to contend with post TG...and this shows how the will be able to &quot;focus&quot; on that.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>you know you can't leave Wotmania. It's kinda like herpes, you can just never really get rid of it.</i><br />Kit <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /></font><p><a href="http://www.cbgxtra.com/" target="_blank">Comics Buyer's Guide XTRA</a></p><p></p>


created: 2006-08-23 14:14:19
subject: <b>Nice theory</b>
body:
I personanlly think that the shadow spawn not being able to travel through gateways is a plot device RJ created when he realized that he had not taken travelling into consideration for troup movement.<br /><br />Having said that, I like your explanation. I think your point about Machin Shin is excellent, it does seem more like Mashadar than the taint.  I am not convinced that all the shadow spawn will drop dead if the DO is sealed up again.  Then again, they have to disapear at some time since they do not exist before the AoL.  Presumably they will not when that age repeats next.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">May you be successful  in all your projects.<br /><br />I am a pastafarion.  The Flying Spaghetti Monster created the universe, and no one in Kansas can prove me wrong.<br /><br />http://www.vengaza.org</font><p></p>


created: 2006-08-23 14:17:03
subject: <b>Very Good!</b>
body:
I pretty much agree with everything you've said.  Very well thought out and presented.  Nice job.<br /><br />I also had the same thought as LitN after reading your theory - that is, perhaps when Shadowspawn pass through a Gateway, they momentarily lose contact with the Dark One, and it is that loss of contact that kills them.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Rise and fall, turn the Wheel,<br />'cause all life is<br />Is really just a circle.&quot;<br /><br />-BHT&amp;tM</font><p></p>


created: 2006-08-23 14:55:21
subject: <b>Nice!</b>
body:
I this theory and am certainly leaning towards it.<br /><br />I have a couple small issues:<br /><br />Near the end, you speak of Ishy's travelling in the Prologue of EotW - well I think that it's more likely that RJ had not figured out the mechanics of travelling at this time, and it is just an 'error'. It is not consistent with Moridin's travelling of ripping a hole in the pattern.<br /><br />I think it's a leap in logic to conclude that because a waygate doesn't kill shadowspawn like a gateway does that the ways are completely divorced from influence from the OP. Though I do agree that the evidence for it being SL related is more convincing, I still think that you take a leap of logic there (not that you really have any other options though).<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Need a book to read - check out my blog for ideas.</font><p><a href="http://nethspace.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">Neth Space</a></p><p></p>


created: 2006-08-23 15:54:14
subject: <b>nah</b>
body:
i don't have my books with me, so i'm relying on poor memory. i'll make it quick.<br /><br />the ways are tainted by saidin, it has been mentioned several times in the earlier books and is generally regarded as fact. you argue that the weaves holding callandor were not tainted so therefore the ways weren't tainted with saidin. however, the weaves were made with pure saidin that became the eye of the world, so it wouldn't be tainted.<br /><br />machin chin tried to kill fain, but fain was too powerful. he was changed by the DO and given powers, he was changed when he encountered Mordeth in SL and absorbed him. fain absorbed part of MC and ordered MC to follow Rand, he told him to, MC did not pick up on his hostilities towards rand. this was also mentioned in the books and is taken as fact.<br /><br />this theory started ok, but there are too many flaws in it (like the ones mentioned above) for me to take it seriously. it's too anecdotal. it's far easier to say that RJ needed to limit the power of the forsaken. if shadowspawn could use gates, it would have been game over at the beginning of the series if 100000+ shadowspawn attacked Rand and co.<br /><br />you could have a point about the conection to the DO, but since they're stepping directly from one part of the world to another, they won't lose the connection. they're not stepping through a tunnel, the parts of the world they're travelling through exist next to each other.


created: 2006-08-23 16:03:10
subject: <b>Good statement of what we know</b>
body:
The DO can`t be killed without destroyimg the world. Besides, It is a necessary component of RJ`s balance.<br /><br />Not convimced about the Bore repair killing Shadowspawn.  But you may be right. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2006-08-23 17:49:07
subject: <b>Good</b>
body:
I like your thinking.  I especially like the line of thought that Machin Shin is related to Mashadar.  If I understand your theory, you are suggesting that the use of the Ways during the Trolloc Wars pulled Machin Shin into the Ways.  Absolutely phenomenal!  As I understand the WOT timeline the city of Aridhol was consumed by Mordeth during the Trolloc Wars.  What this implies is that during the Wars Mashadar was just developing.  It might not have been what we saw in TeoW.  If that is true then it is possible that the early form of Mashadar could have felt the evil of the Trollocs and Fades inside the Ways.  Mashadar was born from a hatred of all things Shadow.  If Mashadar could have sensed the evil inside the Ways it might have tried to pursue it.  Mordeth could have opened the Gate for all we know.  If you can accept that Mashadar went into the Ways after the Trollocs and Fades then it is not hard to assume that once inside the Ways, the pre-pubescent Mashadar evolved into something else.


created: 2006-08-23 18:11:27
subject: <b>Some answers</b>
body:
To Light in the Night:<br /><b>Could just the passage through a gateway, even for that minute amount of time, also sever this connection to the DO and be what kills them? (Just a thought)</b><br /><br />Yes.  That was what my theory was attempting to state - this distortion interferes with the connection to the Dark One without which they cannot survive.<br /><br /><b>While not conclusive, the seals were most likely made by men since the women refused to join LTT's plan. It appears prolonged contact with the TP, (the source of the taint), has weakened them.</b><br /><br />It is far more likely that the seals are simply insufficient to withstand the forces of natural entropy on the hole in the Pattern, plus the near-omnipotent deity exerting his will on them for three millenia.  In a sense you are correct, but in the first place, the sheer scale is off - like assuming that because an atomic bomb has one effect, a candle flame will have a similar effect - and in the second place, even against all that, the Seals have only eroded and collapsed, not become perverted and corrupted.  They are failing to do their job, not doing it maliciously.  And too, Callandor was perfectly safe - had the ward been as susceptible to the corruption of the taint, it might have driven the Dragon Reborn mad or tried to kill him as soon as he passed through them.<br />Finally, the seals were made by UNCORRUPTED saidin - the counterstroke AFTER their making and placement is what creatd the taint.  Likewise, there is no evidence that Callandor was warded with the Eye of the World or made with pure saidin, and most of the evidence suggests otherwise (the geographical extremity between their locations for one, and the fact that the Stone was built AFTER the Breaking for another).<br /><br />To Vind alOo:<br />Just because something is mentioned in the books does not make it fact.  There are innumerable instances of characters being wrong.  Anything &quot;stated&quot; in the books is the opinion or belief of a character, and as likely to be wrong as the assumption that men and women are equal in strength in the Power, which was the accepted idea through the first four books.  Even the fact that the three known male channelers, Rand, Logain and Taim, plus all the Forsaken were above the average for women (with almost no time for the first two to build up their maximum strength) did not say the Aes Sedai from stating that men and women were naturally equal.  In CoT Romanda refers to Shadar Logoth as &quot;that sinkhole of the Shadow&quot; when in fact, it has NOTHING to do with the Shadow, and is antithetical to the Shadow and the Dark One.  Nothing else known in the world is so destructive to the Shadow as Shadar Logoth, yet because it too is evil, Romanda (who, to be fair, probably knows better intellectually) links it to the Shadow, when nothing else better deserves being called the opposite of the Shadow.  <br />Nowhere is your idea about the interaction of Fain and Machin Shin (would it have killed you to read the correct spelling in my theory on which you are commenting? ) ever stated in the books, which means it is your own theory.  In that case, write it up yourself and post it to the TP as I did.  Do not cite to refute my theory as if yours is commonly known and the accepted version.  <br />When you do get your books, cite me a quote that proves me wrong.  I assure, my books are handy, and both my memory and  understanding of the their contents are superior to yours.<br /><br />jofraz: The very fact that the Dark One is inimical to the world and the Pattern suggests that he is not necessary.  Besides, the world did fine with him completely out of the picture and totally separated from it for two Ages.  They don't need him.  Perrin's idea of the Pattern is closer to the truth than Moiraine's.  The problem is, they make the common if ludicrous error of mistaking &quot;bad&quot; or &quot;unpleasant&quot; for &quot;Evil.&quot;  Even an evil person can oppose the Shadow - RJ has made it clear that criminals, thugs and the like might be horrified at the idea of becoming Darkfriends.  My the same token, there are undoubtedly Darkfriends who hold child molesters or other types of evil in contempt.  The Shadow is one route of evil, but it IS possible to do evil and be evil completely free of the Shadow's influence.  Therefore, the occurrence of bad and harmful things in the world, and their place in the balance of the Pattern does not indicate the Dark One is necessary.  Otherwise, what point to opposing or punishing evil?  Won't it all just work out?  (Sounds like Egwenist thinking to me)<br /><br />To anyone who uses the words &quot;Plot device&quot; or &quot;Jordan&quot; in your refutation:<br />Stop it.  That is a weak and irrelevant argument.  Yes it is that way because Jordan wanted it, but then we can say that about anything.  Don't forget, RJ himself has frankly stated that the taint was a plot device:<br /><i>I recall seeing a...fantasy novel about a young woman who wasn&#8217;t allowed to become a magician of whatever sort it was because she was a woman. ...but what about if it were men who were not allowed to become whatever it was?...From that genesis grew the division of the One Power into a male and a female half with the male half tainted, giving a reason why men not only would not be allowed to become Aes Sedai, as they were not then called, but must not be allowed even to channel, again as it was not then called. From that...came the result of 3000+ plus years when men who can wield the...One Power, are to be feared and hated above all things, when the only safety from such men comes from the one stable center of political, and other, power...a female center of power.</i><br />He wanted a story where the men where disenfranchised in this particular way, and the taint was a plot device to get them there.  This does not make the strike at Shayol Ghul or its consequences and the aftermath any less true than any other event in the books, nor does it render the taint less real or trivialize the danger of channeling.  Calling it a plot device, or RJ's will is a stupid and petulant way of saying &quot;That's not how I think it should work.&quot;  The only effect such an argument has on me is to cause me to sorrowfully lower my estimate of your intelligence, and take the rest of your post less seriously.  You can do better - open your minds.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


created: 2006-08-23 22:13:00
subject: <b>Brilliant</b>
body:
Excellent theory, really well thought out and written. I think the biggest thing I took out of the whole theory (even though it's just a side note to what you were actually aiming at) is the connection between Shadar Logoth and the corruption of The Ways. Fantastic theory and I gotta think it's spot on in that regard.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Kneel, or you will be knelt! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shakefist.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />I'm SOOOOO much cooler than <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2006-08-23 23:16:51
subject: <b>Great theory</b>
body:
I agree with  most of what you said. I had long had the idea that Machin Shin had to be something of Shadar Logoth or maybe an evolved form of Mashadar, but your theory describes and explains everything better than I ever imagined. <br /><br />There is one point that I disagree with you though. Saying that the Ways are a natural part of the world is wrong. The Ways defy all laws of physics. All the characters notice that the Islands are sometimes right on top of one another, and that everything in the Ways is just hanging in midair without any support. Since that defies the laws of physics I think that it is safe to say that they can't be a natural part of the world.<br /><br />That being the case I think that it is more likely that Light in the Night's explanation is correct. After all, if Shadar Logoth's evil could seep into the Ways, then the DO can exert his evil there, too, making it possible for the Trollocs to survive there. While Gateways alter the Pattern and stop his influence from reaching them.<br /><br />Once again, good theory.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />Proud Vice President of the Egwene Roasters Club<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />&quot;Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups.&quot;<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2006-08-24 01:30:53
subject: <b>I realize the seals weren't made with tainted saidin,,,,</b>
body:
but neither are they in direct contact with the Bore, either. (The cuendillar discs, that is.) Rather, they are the focal points to which the weaves are attached that hold the &quot;patch/seal&quot; down on the Bore. (My understanding is that they serve as anchors. Since the Bore is a hole in the Pattern itself, and exists in no particular place, I envision they provide a place to tie-off the weaves in this reality.)<br /><br />So, to my line of thinking, the TP has seeped through those weaves over the last 3,000 years, not taken the direct impact of an atomic bomb, as you put it. (Much like taking small doses of poison until you've built up enough in your system to kill you, vs. one lethal dose.)<br /><br />Plus, from what we know about Heartstone, &quot;nothing&quot; is supposed to be able to weaken it, but apparently the same source of the taint has done just that. (It appears to me that the molecular structure has been compromised.) Nynaeve and Elayne were also able to sense the presence of &quot;evil&quot; by touching one, so you could say it was corrupted.<br /><br />You are correct that we haven't definitively seen anything that was <i>made</i> with tainted saidin simply rot away or deteriorate. The only object that readily comes to mind is the Talisman of Growing, and as far as we know it still exists and is still functional. (OTOH, we also know it's a ter'angreal, which are almost indestructable.)<br /><br />We do however, have several pov's from Rand concerning how <i>using</i> tainted saidin is slowing corrupting his physical body; seeping into his bones and affecting his mind. So it appears the taint can affect organic matter. That is not to say that I think the taint is responsible for the Black Wind or the corruption of the Ways. I still agree with your assessment.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2006-08-24 03:40:24
subject: <b>RJ apparently answered this.</b>
body:
The following Q&amp;A was reported from RJ's signing Tour in Dayton, OH (e.g. found at Theoryland):<br /><br />&quot;Q: Why can't shadowspawn pass through gateways?<br />A: It's because they're artificial constructs. They can't tolerate the passage.<br />Q: So would a Nym have the same problem?<br />A: Yes.<br />Q: How about Ogier?<br />A: No. Ogier are not artificial constructs.&quot;<br /><br />Apparently no construct can use a Gateway, irrespective of the TP or a connection to the DO.<br /><br />But even so, I doubt that all Trollocs or Myrddraal have a direct connection to the DO.  The TP simply became a physical part of them.<br /><br />The exception is SH who has a direct link to the DO. <br />Therefore I believe, like you, that all Trollocs and Myrddraal have to die, when the DO is defeated (even if that is a plot device). <br /><br />But IMO the reason won't be because the DO is just out of reach, but because SH will create a link between him and all Myrddraal who a linked to the Trollocs Fists. <br />When the DO is defeated by Rand, SH will die and with him the majority of the Shadowspawn army due to the links. <br />I pointed this out in detail in my theory &quot;Shaidar Haran's purpose in the Last Battle&quot;.<br /><br />Finally I also don't believe that Machin Shin was caused by the SL evil. <br />The Black Winds' madness and the corruption of the Ways in general point to the Taint/TP, which was used in creating the Ways after all, as the most likely explanation. <br />As we see in the Blight or on male channelers, every living thing becomes corrupted by the contact of the TP after some time (that is probably the difference to the ward around Callandor).


created: 2006-08-24 10:39:26
subject: <b>have to agree with etzel</b>
body:
As he pointed out, Nym cannot pass through a gateway either. What then makes a gateway so special? <br />First, I would like to suggest that Jordan actually did have most of the mechanics in mind, including the TP traveling. I don't have my books but I seem to recall the shimmering as usual when traveling with the TP. Anyway, what is it about Gateways?<br /><br />We know that gateways have at least something to do TAR in the sense that the weave to travel to TAR is almost the same as to Travel. By folding the pattern, or making points of indentical nature, it would seem that TAR is somehow involved. Look at skimming. This is almost certainly an area between threads, which is what TAR has always been described as.<br /><br />So, what is the point? Namely that constructs cannot handle the transition into TAR. Remember the Aiel myth (or maybe not) that a channeler loses a part of his or her soul by traveling to TAR in the flesh? Well, perhaps that is based on the inability of constructs' souls to make that passage.<br /><br />The Ways on the other hand are described as being based upon the portal stones, which are in fact real worlds, not merely the spaces between them. Thus, the OP acts as a bridge to the Ways that does not require traversing TAR. <br /><br />I am still not sure how or why TAR is impossible for constructs to pass through, but I feel pretty certain that this is the case.


created: 2006-08-24 12:14:14
subject: <b>Interesting theory</b>
body:
I liked that you linked the Black Wind to Shadar Logoth, I submitted a theory a couple years ago about this but it never got posted (maybe the theory you mentioned was already there). I would argue that the Taint isn't capable of manifesting a being by itself, the taint destroys and corrupts, but it's a passive force, it couldn't create the Black Wind.  Also, the whole eating of souls thing (which both 'beings' do) seems far too coincidental to discount.  Anyway, glad the idea is out there in a coherent theory. <br /><br />However, as Etzel already covered, RJ talked about the Gateway/Shadowspawn issue so I have to go with the Creator on this one.  The SH linking hypothesis is interesting, but it seems a little unnecessary from my point of view.  I suppose the DO could be arrogant enough to think that his avatar could not be killed, but thus far the linking that we have seen has been with fairly small forces and for specific purposes.  I suppose it could happen, but it doesn't seem very wise from a strategic point of view.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Funny thing about weekends when you're unemployed, they don't mean quite so much...except you get to hang out with your working friends.&quot;<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2006-08-24 14:50:38
subject: <b>I didn't know about the Nym comment, but it still fits.</b>
body:
The Shadow-connection hypothesis was one of two explanations I was waffling between, but in any case I assumed the imperfect construction of the Shadowspawn was the reason.  In an attempt to explain how imperfectly constructed lifeforms could still survive, I theorized that the True Power took the place of whatever real beings had that constructs lack.  <br />On the other hand, for all we know the Nym are connected to something besides themselves too.  We really know nothing more about the Nym than some of their powers and the fact that they were constructs.  Perhaps they are tied to the natural world in some way, or to a particular place?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


created: 2006-08-29 03:22:02
subject: <b>This theory...</b>
body:
...reads like an instruction manual. The writing is both abrasive and pompous and nearly put me to sleep. <br /><br />When you figure out using long words do not impress (but rather shows arrogance), write another theory and post it. Maybe I'll finish that one.


created: 2006-08-29 09:29:31
subject: <b>One support for your theory not mentioned</b>
body:
Shadowspawn don't exist in the Age of Legends until Aginor creates (invents??) them.  A logical assumption is that they are destroyed in toto during the Last Battle, so that when the Wheel comes around again, they can be recreated (reinvented??)


created: 2006-08-29 14:48:49
subject: <b>When Flamers Flame...</b>
body:
Al'Gai comes to lend a defensive hand!<br /><br />A Deathwatch Guard: I don't believe Cannoli ever stated that the Ways were a &quot;natural part of this world&quot;. I think his point was the fact that the Ways themselves were at least partly natural(in their off-shoot of reality), because they weren't &quot;created&quot;, they were &quot;grown&quot;. <br /><br />Etzel: RJ states than &quot;no construct can use a gateway, they can't tolerate the passage&quot;. Does he explain WHY they can't survive? If not, then Cannoli's explanation is as good as any.<br /><br />celebrated: Your comments had nothing to do with the theory itself, merely the author's style of writing. Please keep such comments to yourself, as this is NOT what this board is for. If you want to bitch about how you don't understand other people's thoughts, points, and opinions, become a Christian.<br /><br />Now that that's done; you've done a great job, Cannoli. At first, I also assumed that Machin Shin was a product of the taint, due to the &quot;madness&quot; described in the voices. After reading your theory, though, I realized that if it was due to the taint, wouldn't all those mad voices be male? Surely that would have been mentioned somewhere, right? But no, it's not, &quot;thousands of male voices uttering horrible things that could almost be understood&quot;, it's just thousands of voices, leading me to believe the Black Wind is actually the population of Aridhol, plus whatever unlucky travellers it's managed to &quot;consume&quot; over the last millenia or two. Two thumbs way up.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Of course you should fight fire with fire! You should fight EVERYTHING with fire!<br /><br />-Al'Gai, the Son of Battle<br />A.K.A. Anaro Ravenclaw,<br />Technomancer for the next Millenium <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/borg.gif" border="0" /><br />Revenant Bounty Hunter Extroidinaire <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2006-08-31 18:30:27
subject: <b>Why must Etzel always cite such apt outside references?</b>
body:
First off, Al_Gai, easy with the religion-bashing (and the &quot;festive&quot; introduction).<br /><br />Second, I must agree with Etzel, and decide that the construct explanation is enough. It has been stated by RJ that constructs cannot pass through a gateway- <br />likely because gateways alter the pattern somehow. It does not matter how the pattern has been altered (since men and women do so differently), only that it has been altered. Given this information, I think that one of Cannoli's main premises may be mistaken.<br /><br />The author of this theory begins with the notion that Trollocs must have the TP bolstering their UNnaturalness because of the association with their next generation, the Myrdraal. The list of strange powers cited does not indicate any sort of malicious bent or inimical inheritance. They seem, rather, the capacities and shortcomings of a being that has not been fully rendered into the world.<br /><br />We have seen no abnormal powers in any of the Trollocs. Cannoli's assertions that the Myrdraal's powers necessitate a similar instance in Trollocs is speculative. It makes sense, if you believe that the TP is repsonsible for shoring up the missing pieces of a construct. However, that assertion cannot be made for the Nym, leading me to believe that it has to do with the nature of a construct, and not the nature of the TP being involved.<br /><br />My explanation is that the Myrdraal are the second generation of a construct. Unfortunately, we do not have a similar product from the Nym to compare, but the UNworldy powers of the Myrdraal seem more likely connected to the fact that they are a secondary rendering of said construct (I'm reminded of the mule, a living animal that cannot reproduce because it is not a true species). A construct cannot act in the same manner as a normal being- here, it cannot pass through an alteration in the pattern. A construct's spawn is further removed from the pattern, and my speculation is that this leads to the Myrdraal's powers, which are nothing more than anomalies in physical reality caused by the creature's distance from the natural.<br /><br />I believe that it is the cause of the construct's nature rather than the effects of the TP for several reasons (aside from the Nym having nothing to do with the TP). First off, as I said earlier, these &quot;powers&quot; are not directed toward any sort of goal or purpose. The DO did not instill in them any use through the TP, nor is there any residual effects of the DO and his personality, making the powers seem &quot;evil.&quot; Then, there is the fact  that Aginor, a scientist, spends time trying to understand the the Myrdraal's unique abilities. To me, this implies that the matter is academic, else he would have consulted the DO or another forsaken on the subject. Then we have the ability to link Trollocs to a Myrdraal. Why would this be necessary if they were already linked to the DO through the TP? If they die just as readily when that link is severed, couldn't the DO (if he is connected to them) simply threaten them with death by severing the link? He might even be able to torture them with such a link. Finally, I would like to state that though Ishamael was able to use the TP ebven during the DO's imprisonment behind he seals, this does not give us large reason to suspect that his force pervades to all demon-spawn. The TP, according to Moghedien's PoV, has been used by less than thirty people up to the time in the books. It seems hard to believe that less than thirty people have had the esteemed privilege to tap into the TP, but that seemingly millions, perhaps billions over the years, of constructs made by Aginor and other scientists (the creation of man not god), have had threads leading to the DO fueling them with constant syphons of the TP. It is this specific connection, I believe, that was argued to be the reason for which Trollocs cannot survive the passage of a gateway. I argue against that, and toward the construct explanation.<br /><br />As to the Machin Shin/Mashadar theory, I have some reservations. The Black Wind sounds mad. Specifically mad. Fain's mutterings are at least directed and somewhat sane. Machin Shin sounds a lot like LTT when he raves about death. As for Fain, he says that he talked to Machin Shin, not that they bonded. They might not have attacked one another (Aridhol vs the shadow) because Machin Shin is not shadowspawn, but only a bi-product of the taint. Male channelers weren't shadowspawn, nor were they even evil. They were just mad as a result of the taint. Machin Shin does not have to be of the shadow or of Aridhol. It might just be a crazed mind given life by the Ways.<br /><br />(when i wanna make a gateway...)


created: 2006-09-02 11:16:55
subject: <b>could rand avoid machin sin</b>
body:
just thinking but if machin sin left fain alone because of mashadar is it possible it leaves rand because of the mashadar in his wounds?


created: 2006-09-02 11:35:10
subject: <b>Yeah</b>
body:
Good theory and well constructed. I generally agree with everything you wrote, with some minor quibbles over gateways antagonising Shadowspawn. I agree.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">A One Power researcher<br />Defender of Lanfear<br />Grand Ninja-Nae'blis to be feared <br />Original Warder to Isa <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br />New Warder to Nossie <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />Toy to Seriana <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/winky.gif" border="0" /><br />Mystified by a Fan <br />Bonded Phelix - I was young, it happened so fast.</font><p></p>


created: 2006-09-04 12:23:52
subject: <b>Just a note to i bore a hole...</b>
body:
Bear in mind we know nothing about the Nym, aside from what can be inferred from the Green Man's behavior in EotW, and the hints from the Aiel History Columns.  For all we know they have a nature/lifeforce connection that fulfills the function of a theoretical True Power/Dark One connection in Shadowspawn.  It is entirely possible that the Nym were tied to a particular location, or even a global position.  That might explain why the Eye of the World was placed so close to Shayol Ghul - that was the area in which the last of the Nym could live.  <br /><br />We really don't know enough about the nature and function of the Nym to use them as any sort of counter-argument, and certainly we don't know enough to rule out possible similarities to the Shadowspawn.  <br /><br />As for the Myrdraal, while I agree that most of their unnatural abilities stem from being outside reality, their malignant natures, caustic blood, and control over the Trollocs bespeak at least some strong True Power influence in their makeup.  Furthermore, I recall either Jordan or the BWB asserting that the Myrdraal are a result of the True Power being used in the creation of the Trollocs.  There is no reason this could not be a cause or an effect of the outside-reality syndrome.  There is also no reason to suppose that Trollocs and Nym are not outside reality as well.  Also, there is no reason why the True Power-used-in-manufacture, and the existing-outside-reality issues need to be mutually exclusive.  In fact, since the True Power is drawn from a being who exists outside of reality himself, it stands to reason that both issues WOULD be connected.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


created: 2006-09-08 13:13:42
subject: <b>Thumbs Up</b>
body:
The only thing that I could find that was incorrect is about Rand visiting ways. In KoD, Rand asks Loial to go around and seal the ways, and Rand mentions that he put a &quot;really nasty trap&quot; on one that had been cut open. You would think that he would mention if he had an encounter with the Black Wind, but you can't assume anything so other than that one detail, I give 100%.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;What do you mean, why's it got to be built?&quot; he said. &quot;It's a bypass. You've got to build bypasses.&quot; - Mr Prosser, head builder</font><p></p>


created: 2006-10-04 13:35:58
subject: <b>Mashadar/Black Wind</b>
body:
Al'Gai actually touched upon my brief theory here.  The population of Aridol.  It was said that the ways where grown, not created using the OP.  Now the black wind, I agree, is alot like mashadar, it's all consuming.  Good, bad...indiffernt.  I don't believe that the black wind is a product of the taint on Saidin(however it reminds me of the decaying and animocity of the blight-EotW).  During the War of a Hundred Years Mordeth seeded hate and suspicion in Aridol.  This is what produced Mashadar, so we've been told.  <br />  Here's the theory part.  Some of the population seeking to get as far away from the city as they could, and as quickly as they could, entered the Ways.  However, it's been stated without a map and knowledge of the Ways, one could easily get lost for a long time.  If these people, already &quot;infected&quot; per say, then entered the Ways and died, where would the taint of Mashadar go.  As we see in Aridol, it just doesn't disapate, it seeks new life to consume.  Thus if enough infected people entered the Ways, and perished, then the Ways would now be infected.  And it wouldn't even take much, maybe a family or two.  The resulting taint would then seek out new life to consume, eventually collecting the souls of travellers, and growing, spreading the taint even farther til the whole of the Ways had been corrupted.<br />  I put it this way, a carrier infecting the Ways, rather than Mashadar seeping in, only because of the dificulty that the Black Wind had trying to penetrate the Waygate.  <br />


created: 2007-05-19 00:28:10
subject: <b>uhm</b>
body:
I like the theory but cant help wonder...<br /><br />If the inhabitants of Aridhol had been brought into the ways and turned into machin chin wouldnt they speak the old tounge? Mind you aridhol was during the time of Manatheren and they spoke the old tounge<br /><br />I can go along with your theory. Well thought out. Good job.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /> mat rules! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />&quot;Carai an Ellisande! Al Ellisande! Mordero daghain pas duente cuebiyar! Al Ellisande!&quot;<br />&quot;Dovie'andi se tovya sagain&quot;<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2007-05-31 12:15:56
subject: <b>A pro- argument</b>
body:
<i>This means that with the Dark One completely out of touch with the world, as opposed to merely held off, the Trollocs and company who are sustained by his power will not be able to live any more than they can survive passing through a gateway</i><br /><br />If I'm remember correctly, one of the time when Ishamael were almost free was Trolloc Wars. Also, in this time there was an enormous count of Trollocs. Which is, I think, a corroboration of your theory.


created: 2008-04-24 23:42:05
subject: <b>wait a second</b>
body:
to quote from light of the night and his post <br /><br />&quot; &quot;In summation, I believe the inability of Trollocs and other Shadowpawn to pass through a gateway and survive is a side effect of their unnatural existence and dependence of that existence on a continued connection to the Dark One.&quot;<br /><br />Earlier in the theory you stated that the distortions of the Pattern caused by gateways, and the unnatural makeup of the Shadowspawn was responsible for their inability to survive Traveling. In your conclusion, you infer that being out of direct contact with the Dark One's power would also cause their death.<br /><br />Could just the passage through a gateway, even for that minute amount of time, also sever this connection to the DO and be what kills them? (Just a thought)&quot;<br /><br />That just him me (me me), The male Forsaken travel right? If there connection was severd from the DO the taint would seep into them and drive them mad...so I dont think it that they die for that reason and that kinda gums up the works...


created: 2006-09-02 20:39:08
subject: <b>Just wondering</b>
body:
where would you put Elayne, Egwene, Nynaeve, Cadsuane, Alivia, Aviendha, and Sharina at on your List compared to the Forsaken? Alivia and Sharina both pass Nynaeve and we know that she is stronger than Rahvin.


created: 2006-09-02 22:51:35
subject: <b>que</b>
body:
I don't know if you prove that the strongest woman can be as strong as the strongest men.<br /><br />You might be using the wrong graph to see what you want to see, but just because the weakest of men and women are the same doesn't mean anything new. If we are looking at a graph, then hopefully, theoretically, we're using every point on a line. There's no jump in men from zero to strength of 20, that's all. As for a graph, I think of [y equals negative (x-squared)] (sorry I can't represent that too well at my work keyboard but it should be an upside-down parabola, here, raised above the x-axis). If there are different horizontal shifts, the graphs could be different and still have the same zeroes.<br /><br />As for evidence, we only know that &quot;Lews Therin was as strong as any&quot; and that Ishamael is near his level. Lanfear never remarks, nor is there any remark that she is his equal. With all of her PoV's, I think it possible that she would have noted that maybe she could have taken out Rand with her old body. When she's blocking his attacks back in tSR, she never taunts him saying that at his peek they would be tied.


created: 2006-09-03 03:08:31
subject: <b>I think that the point is</b>
body:
That Women, in the end are as *powerful* as men, where their dexterity with the flows balances against men's strength.


created: 2006-09-03 08:20:51
subject: <b>Good one Sidious</b>
body:
Agree with prevalence, and this goes along with RJ`s  statements.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2006-09-03 19:48:16
subject: <b>Rahvin's POV</b>
body:
The scene with Rahvin, Sammael, Lanfear, and Graendel has always seemed a little misleading me, so it kind of irks me when it is included in talk about relative strengths.  Rahvin was demonstrated as an exceedingly prideful man, and in his actions, seemed to subscibe to a belief that women were inherently weaker than men.  As such I think his thoughts are not an accurate picture of how women and men compare in the power.  Simply put, he may think that he could overwhelm Lanfear or Graendel, but in a real confrontation, I think he would have been unpleasantly surprised.  In the end I think this supports RJ's quotes and your theory about the impacts of dexterity, but I don't agree with the way you used the scene in your argument.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Funny thing about weekends when you're unemployed, they don't mean quite so much...except you get to hang out with your working friends.&quot;<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2006-09-04 17:19:08
subject: <b>About Linking</b>
body:
I really like this theory. It is very well done. I could not open the graph link but it still made sense. I would just add that I think women still have an edge on men that is because of linking. Especially for the strongest women who could overwhlem anyone if linked with even the weakest woman. Linking is the ultimate equalizer I think.<br /><br />LioalT <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" />


created: 2006-09-04 17:55:05
subject: <b>Very Nice summation....</b>
body:
I also would like to see where you place all those other women...given the Rahvin comment.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>you know you can't leave Wotmania. It's kinda like herpes, you can just never really get rid of it.</i><br />Kit <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /></font><p><a href="http://www.cbgxtra.com/" target="_blank">Comics Buyer's Guide XTRA</a></p><p></p>


created: 2006-09-04 19:16:25
subject: <b>I agree with the ideas, but would rather you ditched the numbers.</b>
body:
When people see numbers, they automatically assume that mathematics have been used to objectively measure something, and that's not what you've done here; you've used textual analysis to produce approximations of relative ability.  That's not to say I don't think those approximations are correct (I mostly think they are); I just think it's a little disingenuous and arbitrary to invent this numeric scale and then say &quot;Rahvin is an 80,&quot; as if it were actually possible to determine whether Rahvin is an 80 (or an 81 or a 79) based on what we have in the books.


created: 2006-09-05 02:21:15
subject: <b>Some thoughts about Rahvin</b>
body:
I think you reach a few strange conclusions. You base much of your possitioning on the asumption that Rahvin doesn't know his strength. I find the paragraph about Rahvin your weak point.<br /><br />For instant you say: &quot;There is also the equal possibility that Rahvin doesn&#8217;t consider the fact that a woman might actually be as strong as him.&quot;<br /><br />I find that a realy strange asump&#229;tion to make since Rahvin has sp&#229;ent a lot of time around Lanfer who is acnoledged to be exreamly strong, almost as strong as Rand/Lewis. Since he think that he can beat her he is atleast as strong as her and probarbly just a tad stronger.<br /><br />You states that: &quot;If he could overwhelm both women, then why did both of them sit higher than him in the Shadow for the War of Power?&quot;<br /><br />As we all can se with Moghedien streangth in the power is not al important to the dark one. Other things are much more likely matter when it comes to how high you sitt in the shadow at a certain time.<br /><br />You state : &quot;Secondly, why did he fill himself to his maximum with saidin when he heard a woman was behind him? If a woman could never approach his power, then why would he feel threatened? Clearly there is a contradiction here between his opinions and his own actions.&quot;<br /><br />I think that anyone, even Ishmael or Rand/Lweis would fill himself with the power if he heard anybody, they thought had the power, behind him. To not do so would just be stupid to me. I find no contradiction in just being safe. A weaker foe will kill you if you do not protect yourself.<br /><br />Otherwize a nice theory...


created: 2006-09-05 05:38:58
subject: <b>i agree with the general gist</b>
body:
if not with some of the specifics; i'm inclined to believe you've underplayed female strength a touch and overplayed what other bonus they gain.<br />Firstly, from a maths point of view, the 1000 asha'man and the 1000 SAS do not provide a fair ana accurate sample, though i can see why you chose them, and i can't suggest a better method, the populations are still not fair indicators; the SAS, for example, have only been taking people from a certain area, the Ashaman are all dragon followers etc etc. I'd just be careful about using them as to solid an example.<br />Also, while i'm not an old theorist, i had a different view of the bell curve, the male one is just skewed to the right, not moved to the right.<br />The graph address doesn't work for me...<br />I've said this before, and you're touching on it, but i'm going to throw it in here too; there is a big difference between working out what the lanfear types can do compared to rand types, and then what the average people can do.<br />You could work it the other way round, look at averge men, average women, adn then scale up slightyl and hope it all holds together, but i don't think starting from the top, aborations in your own view, and use that as a scale for everyone else is a fair way to be working things out.<br />Having said that, i agree almost entirely with you summary points<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Member of the FF<br />Wartherder to Delectable Deadsy<br />Warder to Indredible Isa<br />Bonded to Super Seriana<br />Brilliant BGs warder reborn<br />Stonger than sidious<br />Ravs bigger better bro<br />Semi-demi-Admin (M2K said so!)<br />Our very own Mat <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2006-09-05 14:49:57
subject: <b>As usual, agree with the main ideas in the theory</b>
body:
I think the main problem is trying to quantify so many subjective judgements, which we've all been guilty of since otherwise the attempt falls into a list format.<br /><br />But I do agree that we haven't seen the most powerful female possible - I think Lanfear was bluffing because in the Age of Legends, there may have simply not been a more powerful women since it would be such a rare occurrence.<br /><br />In the same way, any channeler who has knowledge of balefire becomes incredibly dangerous, which goes to show how mind-numbingly stupid Rahvin was. <br /><br />I also think that a main point you are trying to adress is that there is a big difference between being able to hold a certain amount of Power and actually being able to operate at the limits of your abilities. Egwene has proved in KoD that despite being unable to hold as much Power as Rand, she ended up using her skill to duplicate feats of maintaining multiple weaves that earlier she had thought was impossible for her to do. Even if you can handle large amounts of Power, your ability to make use of all that Power still comes down to skill and experience. Lanfear/Cyndane confronted Alivia and almost killed her despite the huge difference in their strengths. So just because you can hold 10,000 saidin doesn't make it impossible for you to lose to someone with much less ability - it can be seen mostly among the Forsaken that ranking channelers is difficult in the extreme unless you actually have evidence of them fighting with full force and no mercy.<br /><br />Good work! Oh, and the link didn't work for me.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;The fact is, that to do anything in the world worth doing, we must not stand back shivering and thinking of the cold and danger, but jump in and scramble through as well as we can.&quot; -Robert Cushing<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/egwene.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2006-09-06 10:59:15
subject: <b>Well, no....</b>
body:
The strongest woman could potentially equal anything the strongest man could do, but in any given Age, one person is going to be number 1, whether that be a male or a female.<br /><br />Let's take the top 5 individuals from the Age of Legends. They could randomly have been either men or women. Either is equally likely, going by RJ's quote. However, as it happens, in THIS EXAMPLE, Lews Therin was the greatest channeler in the world. According to Third Age knowledge, Ishamael was the person who came closest to matching him. However, we know that Lews Therin was never defeated in One Power battle.<br /><br />In fact, the Guide calls him the most powerful man of his time. <br /><br />So, the number 1 spot, in any given Age, could be from any sex. It just so happens that it happened to be a man. Similarly, the number 2 spot could be from any sex. And again, it just so happens that it was a man. Ishamael. The highest possible position Lanfear could occupy, is 3rd.<br /><br />But that is if we go with your interpretation of male/female Power relationships.<br /><br />I maintain that there is no need to see the female curve as being steeper than the male one. All you need is dexterity to counter the far greater strength of the males. Then the curves might as well be absolutely equal. What males win in strength, they lose in dexterity.<br /><br />Unfortunately, that still does not gel with Asmodean's clear description which states that the male strength advantage - in battle - is not countered by female dexterity, but by the female ability to link.<br /><br />Oh, and going by the evidence in the books, there are as many Third Age women of Forsaken level strength as there are men.<br /><br />Talaan<br />Someryn<br />Nynaeve<br />Sharina<br />Alivia<br />Tamela and Viendre<br /><br />The list goes on. These are all women that are in the Nynaeve to Lanfear strength range - with Alivia probably falling just below Lanfear's old strength level.<br /><br />Compare that to the number of really strong men. <br /><br />I think the percentage of women at Forsaken strenght level is EXACTLY the same as the percentage of men at Forsaken strength level. <br /><br />So if your average Ashaman is 50% stronger than your average Aes Sedai, then your average Forsaken male is 50% stronger than your average Forsaken female as well.<br /><br />And in battle, as in the weaving of gateways etc., raw strength is still provides a clear advantage. Hence the female ability to link, which compensates for that.<br /><br />


created: 2006-09-06 21:46:11
subject: <b>Moghedien</b>
body:
To comment on this quote from your theory:<br /><br />&quot;Moghedien tells Nynaeve that males are stronger, and that Rahvin and Lews Therin are much too dangerous for them to encounter (TFoH &#8211; The Threads Burn).&quot;<br /><br />Although I don't disagree with your overall point that Moghedien's position at the top was due to cowerdess, cleverness, and skill in TAR, but this quote is a little off.  She was saying that they were so much stronger than she because they were in TAR in the flesh.  I believe that she wouldn't have wanted to confront those men in the open under any cercumstances, as was proven in the battle to cleanse the source, but because she was in TAR by dreaming, and the men in the flesh, she was truly petrified with fear.


created: 2006-09-06 23:22:01
subject: <b>Maybe it's just a crapshoot</b>
body:
We can argue forever about who is stronger and who would beat who in battle, but in the end there is a certain element of chance in every fight, physical or not.  Sure, it helps to be strong, but everyone has strengths and weaknesses that may or may not determine the outcome of a fight.  I would rank Ishmael as the most dangerous, followed very closely by Demandred and Graendel.  If Lanfear/Cyndane was at her former level of strength, I would rank her on the same level as the former two, bit since she is not she goes on a lower level with Sammael, then Semhirage and Rahvin on a lower level.  It seems like we often forget that a significant factor in fighting is knowing when to stand and when to run.  Graendel is among the most dangerous in my mind because I happen to believe she is smarter and more aware of her own limitations than most of the rest of the Forsaken.  Consequently, she would make better decisions, choose a better environment, and use her strengths better than the rest.  Forced confrontations on a battlefield are another story, but I'd still rank her higher than anyone except Demandred and Ishmael.  She's clever enough to find a way to win most battles.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Funny thing about weekends when you're unemployed, they don't mean quite so much...except you get to hang out with your working friends.&quot;<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2006-09-07 14:17:16
subject: <b>I agree with above</b>
body:
There is, in fact, a giant portion left to chance, so big you just can't imagine just how vastly, mind-boggling big it is. Take Mike Tyson for example. He was so angry he probably might have maybe possibly killed someone. Then, against all odds, he instead decides that a small chunk of his opponent's ear would taste splendid. That is just one possible fate that mighthave occured... consider the possibilities!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;What do you mean, why's it got to be built?&quot; he said. &quot;It's a bypass. You've got to build bypasses.&quot; - Mr Prosser, head builder</font><p></p>


created: 2006-09-07 18:09:49
subject: <b>I agree</b>
body:
in every open conflict, anything can happen...Just look at Moiraine...she killed Bel'al, who was way stronger than her. I think the reason that so many of the forsaken are dead, or ended up captured was because they thought themselves stronger, smarter, and better than everyone else...the only who hasn't done this is Graendal...if Rand or a group of Wise Ones don't run across her in Arad Doman, then she'll be around for quiet a while. She is one of the most dangerous, simply cause her power lays in dealing with peoples minds and motives...she played Sammael like a harp. But she is also one of the strongest forsaken...i believe she made the comment of saying that Cyndane was stronger than her, and that had been rare in the AoL, that only Lanfear had been more powerful...


created: 2006-09-08 11:04:31
subject: <b>Replies...</b>
body:
Thanks to everyone who took the time to read the theory. I appreciate it. I also asked an admin to fix the graph link, and she did a great job. Thanks Linda <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> I&#8217;d just like to address some specific issues&#8230;<br /><br /><b><u>Wesley Sedai </u></b><br /><br />We actually don&#8217;t know that Nynaeve is stronger than Rahvin. In fact, it is very likely that she is not. It once seemed plain that Nynaeve was near the top of the strength tree, but many levels above her strength have been suggested. I don&#8217;t think Nynaeve has an effective strength of greater than 80. Sharina isn&#8217;t much stronger than Nynaeve according to the quotes, but Alivia is. Therefore I would estimate Sharina at 85, and Alivia at 90 or more. I&#8217;d say that Egwene&#8217;s effective strength is about 48 (same with Elayne and Aviendha), and Cadsuane is at about 36. These are based on my previous strength list with the fixed multiplier for women added.<br /><br /><b><u>I Bore a Hole </u></b><br /><br />I found your comments on Lanfear to be peculiar. We&#8217;ve actually never had a Lanfear PoV, but we have had a Cyndane one &#8211; which implied that Lanfear had what was accepted to be maximum strength for a woman. In fact, Lanfear gives every sign that she can match the top males. She tells Rand to his face in TSR that she can match anything which Lews Therin can do &#8211; which is almost a carbon copy of Jordan&#8217;s statement to us. Like Ishamael, she is also willing to stand against Rand whereas other Forsaken are not. She tells him at least twice in TFoH that she is going to kill him, so I am quite perplexed at your comments.<br /><br /><b><u>Logain Reborn </u></b><br /><br />I agree that all Forsaken evidence is potentially erroneous. The problem is that as readers, we can only use what we are given. Otherwise we must accept that we have nothing. Even though Rahvin is a vain and proud man, one cannot discount his opinions on the Power, especially when he is thinking to himself. I&#8217;m sure that Graendal, Semirhage, Lanfear, Demandred and several other Forsaken think that they can overwhelm any other Forsaken. Mesaana may be woefully lacking compared to Semirhage, but she still convinces herself that she has strengths to lay against Semirhage&#8217;s weaknesses. <br /><br /><b><u>LoialT</u></b><br /><br />I&#8217;ve never been convinced that linking is an advantage limited to females. It is firstly dubious to assume that women will always gang up on men. For instance, Rahvin could surely not think that Graendal and Lanfear would willingly submit their power to one another. Why would Graendal kill Sammael and spare Lanfear if they linked? Apart from this, men can link with women if they wish to, and those form the strongest circles of all. I really don&#8217;t like the assumption that it&#8217;s all women against all men. It&#8217;s almost never true, and especially false in the Forsaken&#8217;s case. <br /><br /><b><u>Bcondray </u></b><br /><br />Thanks brad&#8230; I addressed some of those other strengths above. If Moridin thinks that Graendal is a match for Sammael, then I think that Rahvin&#8217;s opinion is seriously flawed. I would sooner trust Ishamael&#8217;s opinion of a channeler than Rahvin&#8217;s.<br /><br /><b><u>Youker </u></b><br /><br />The numbers are merely a vague estimation. I could have made the strengths out of 10 and given everyone a score from 1 to 10. But I wrote a theory a while back suggesting the relative strengths from 1 to 100. It worked in steps of 5 points i.e. 5, 10, 15 to make it easier to tabulate. Now with a female multiplier the strengths become weird e.g. 83. It certainly doesn&#8217;t mean that they are true, but it makes reading about their confrontations easier. I&#8217;m also sure it doesn&#8217;t matter if a channeler&#8217;s strength is 82, 85 or 90. I think strength needs a considerable gap before a deficiency is produced in a duel. That is why I believe that all the Forsaken can challenge on another to a certain degree.<br /><br /><b><u>TOMTEFAR69 </u></b><br /><br />It doesn&#8217;t matter how much time Rahvin has spent around Lanfear, he will never know her true strength unless he links with her, or watches her perform at her full power &#8211; both of which are exceedingly unlikely. Same with Lanfear &#8211; she will never know Rahvin&#8217;s strength. The males are all highly dependent on opinion. Notice how Aran&#8217;gar and Demandred rely on the female Forsaken&#8217;s opinions to estimate Cyndane&#8217;s strength. Rahvin may know his own strength, but when a woman is named as strong &#8211; she could be anything from Egwene strength to Lanfear strength, and that leaves plenty of room for Rahvin to relax. The chance that a woman will exceed him in strength is very small. Strength in the Power is a very important determinant in the Shadow, because outright assassination was actually encouraged in the War of Power. It is no coincidence that they are all so strong in the Power, and their weakest member is a self-confessed coward to avoids their meetings. Even Moghedien is extremely strong for a woman.<br /><br /><b><u>Phil Reborn </u></b><br /><br />The best indicators for strength would probably be the Aiel and Seafolk &#8211; though we have very little information on their strength demographics. The Seanchan only have sparkers in their number, so they might be disproportionately strong.<br /><br /><b><u>Rugbyplayingashaman </u></b><br /><br />While there is always the possibility of a stronger channeler, I very much doubt that a stronger woman existed in the AOL than Lanfear. Even if Cyndane&#8217;s comment is false, and I cannot see why it would be, Jordan clearly wanted to introduce the female equivalent to Lews Therin and Ishamael in the form of Lanfear. I also think you are slightly incorrect regarding your comment on holding the Power and controlling it. I think it comes down to your potential. Egwene has a large potential for a woman, and because dexterity closely follows strength in the Power, she can channel very skillfully even while under the influence of forkroot. I think that Nynaeve is potentially far more skillful than Egwene, and Lanfear more skilled still. It has more to do with your potential than the actual amount of the Power you are holding in most cases.<br /><br /><b><u>Shannow </u></b><br /><br />The comparison between Lews Therin and other channelers doesn&#8217;t really hold merit. There might have been ten women as strong as Lanfear, but it certainly doesn&#8217;t mean that they all had the same skill. We know for a fact that Ishamael was as strong as Lews Therin, but Lews Therin was clearly the greater of the two. So rating these top strength channelers in any way is questionable at best, and ridiculous at worst. Lews Therin might have been the greatest and most terrifying channeler in the War of Power, but there might have been twenty Forsaken who could have given him a good run for his money.<br /><br />I think Asmodean&#8217;s statement can be nicely tied in with Jordan&#8217;s, if you can accept that exceptions occur which violate the normal relationship between the average man and woman.<br /><br />In fact, I think strong women are much rarer than strong men. While it is true that Talaan, Nynaeve, Someryn, Alivia and Sharina are Forsaken strength, they come from a vastly superior sample size consisting of thousands of Aiel Wise Ones, Seafolk, damane and Aes Sedai. Contrast this to the fact that there are less than a thousand Ash&#8217;aman, yet Rand, Taim and Logain are already present &#8211; with a ratio of 1:300 to their strengths. Tamela and Viendre are not Forsaken strength.<br /><br />We don&#8217;t even know if raw strength provides any advantage. Nynaeve wove a very large gateway in KoD which allowed Lan to ride through on horseback. With women who exceed her by a considerable margin, it is clear that the dexterity advantage patches up that deficiency too. A woman of 40 strength can thus probably make a gateway which equals that of a man of 50 strength. Unfortunately a woman of 40 strength is rare. I&#8217;m willing to bet that Lanfear could weave a gateway 4 by 4 paces, just like Rand. Using battle to equate channelers is moot anyway &#8211; it&#8217;s not as if they were created for the purpose of battle. If a woman can weave a larger bridge of Air than a stronger man, then I see no reason why women are not better in some areas of combat and men are better in others.<br /><br /><b><u>Gawynssecret </u></b><br /><br />Moghedien was probably saying that, true. However, Nynaeve mentions a little later in the same chapter that Moghedien insists that men are stronger, and that it isn&#8217;t fair that men get to be stronger in the Power and have stronger muscles too. That is actually the important quote, not the former one where Moghedien is speaking of TAR.<br /><br /><b><u>Logain Reborn, Demosthenes, Wesley Sedai </u></b><br /><br />Yes, it is easy to say that a fight can go any way &#8211; and it can. We saw Moiraine walk up to a fully prepared male Forsaken and kill him, and we saw Moiraine defeat a stronger Merean in NS using intelligence over strength.<br /><br />However, strength is very important. It&#8217;s easy to cite boxing as an example, but before you can fight Mike Tyson you need to at least have a chance. That means you cannot be a lightweight frail old woman and expect to defeat him in a fight. You need to have a minimum physical strength and skill to avoid being crushed within seconds. Same with channelers. All things become equal, but only after strength has been satisfied. It is very unlikely that Moiraine could defeat Semirhage in open combat, or Eben defeat Rand. Strength is very important while fighting. Sure, sometimes the weakling wins &#8211; but who would you bet on 9 times out of 10? I think that strength becomes less relevant at higher levels&#8230; an 80 can fight a 100 with some difficulty, but I think a 30 would annihilate a 10.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">A One Power researcher<br />Defender of Lanfear<br />Grand Ninja-Nae'blis to be feared <br />Original Warder to Isa <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br />New Warder to Nossie <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />Toy to Seriana <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/winky.gif" border="0" /><br />Mystified by a Fan <br />Bonded Phelix - I was young, it happened so fast.</font><p></p>


created: 2006-09-09 01:59:53
subject: <b>A Few Thoughts</b>
body:
sidious,<br /><br />Hey, very nicely thought out theory. My only problem is with a couple of the numbers. I do agree with most of the numbers, however there are just a few things that bugged me. <br /><br />The first is Lanfears ranking of 100. While she is certainly the second strongest Forsaken, this doesn't give enough leeway for others to be stronger. Cyndane said herself in WH that Alivia was stronger than her new form, and quite possibly stronger than she was. Now, this may be due to the fact she was using and angreal (I don't remember, nor do I have access to the books, however I have always inferred that line to mean that Cyndane being almost intimidated by Alivia's raw strength. So while yes, Lanfear is definitely 95+ I would say that she is not at the 100 level, for the simple fact that she could have been surpassed.<br /><br />Secondly, today I was taking some quizzes for fun, and one was on the Forsaken. The quiz had Ishamael ranked first in male strength, and Aginor in second place. So, as you're the one who made this theory, I pose the question to you: Is that correct? I don't know where the quiz author got his or her information, but if it's legit it certainly puts Aginor up there ahead of Sammael and Demondred.<br /><br />Another question I have been thinking about it this: In your opinion, is there an upper limit to angreal boosted power, as there is with natural power? What I mean is, say Ishamael somehow got a hold of Callandor and was using it unaided, and Rand was using the male Choedan Kal. Assuming they both have the same base strength, would Rand skyrocket above Ishamael, or would they both level off somewhere? I know that both would be bound by the limits of their sa'angreals, but is there another bound? Do you think the body can only take in a set amount of the One Power, and it will stop taking it more once it reaches that limit, or can it go as far as the sa'angreal allows?<br /><br />I also have one last question for you, as a sort of ponderance. Do you think that strength in the &quot;True Power&quot; would work in the same regard? Would each person have a pre-destined base strength, or would it be different and would every channeler have the same potential for using it? I know we have very few textual examples of its use in the series, but I would like to know your opinion on the matter.


created: 2006-09-11 15:48:53
subject: <b>To Lanfears Last Chance</b>
body:
Thanks for the comments <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />I would have to disagree that a woman could be stronger than Lanfear. Cyndane says that no woman could be stronger than she used to be. Perhaps she was lying, but I personally think it was a general observation from the Age of Legends. Jordan has never tried to hide the fact that Lanfear was such a powerful female channeler, and Graendal's comment proving that Lanfear was much stronger than her is quite telling.<br /><br />As for Alivia, Cyndane reasoned out that her flows were so strong that she must be using an angreal. She was too far to sense her raw strength, but she knew what types of strength were possible, and what were not <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />The Forsaken heirarchy is difficult to predict. Ishamael and Lanfear are cited as the strongest of the thirteen. Aginor is cited as being the strongest male after Ishamael, but at the same time Demandred is said to be only a little weaker than Lews Therin - which makes it very difficult to decide.<br /><br />In my opinion there is no limit to strength with objects of the Power. The limiting factor is the angreal and how much it allows you to draw. An angreal made Rand quite a lot stronger, Callandor made him almost a hundred times stronger perhaps, and the Choedan Kal made him draw an unimaginable amount of the Power. It would depend on what Ishamael was using, and what Rand was using. They wouldn't peak. With what Rand could channel using the Choedan Kal, it seems that the body can take almost anything.<br /><br />I think that strength in the True Power is identical to strength in the One Power. I think Ishamael can channel as much of the TP as he could saidin. It's just a logical deduction. He wouldn't risk using it if he was weaker than he was with saidin, and everyone else would want to use it if they were much stronger than with the One Power.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">A One Power researcher<br />Defender of Lanfear<br />Grand Ninja-Nae'blis to be feared <br />Original Warder to Isa <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br />New Warder to Nossie <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />Toy to Seriana <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/winky.gif" border="0" /><br />Mystified by a Fan <br />Bonded Phelix - I was young, it happened so fast.</font><p></p>


created: 2006-09-11 18:43:36
subject: <b>I agree with everything but</b>
body:
The superstrength part.  Partially because I disagree that dexterity is due to the channeler.  I think it is a property of saidar and if it were a property of women then Aran'gar should be considered a greater threat than first thought.<br />I don't think LTT needed to have superstrength to be better than Ishmael or Demandred.  Regular humdrum skill would do the job too.  Likewise though we are in agreement that LAnfear was a 100 she clearly wasn't better than LTT.  By giving him dexterity you give the advantage back to men because Lanfear has reached the strength threshold that makes them equal but LTT suddenly gets dexterity to make him better.<br /><br />I can't see superstrength but I can see a certain distribution of talent.  Semirhage can Restore her butt off but can barely make it rain.  Rand can make it rain in the Waste but he can barely heal a bruise. Who's better.  It depends on the task at hand LTT simply was more talented in the things Demandred wanted to be superior in and though it is cliche yet strangely true he was born a day late and a dollar short.  Aginor is also at their level and yet without a lab he's mostly useless.  Better like in real life is often very subjective.<br /><br />Dexterity makes women stronger not better in my opinion.  LTT was just better not stronger.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where did these Skimmers come from?  I mean if they didn't want to read the book they could have just Traveled to another author.  Why risk arriving at the wrong destination?  Why risk falling into darkness?</font><p></p>


created: 2006-09-12 00:54:06
subject: <b>Onarishma</b>
body:
I'm curious to hear your opinion on <i>strength in the five Powers</i><br /><br />For example, take a man and woman of equal strength in the Power. The woman is strong in Air and Water but she struggles with the other three. The man is unusually strong in all five Powers. In my opinion that means that even though he is a man, he is more dextrous than the woman.<br /><br />Considering the Guide said that strength in all five Powers was very rare (exceptional in fact), couldn't it mean that this balance alone could make some channelers of equal strength far more proficient than others - and thus introduce the concept of superstrength?<br /><br />Take Moiraine for example. In EoTW she becomes fatigued while using Fire and Earth and she apologises saying that she is weaker in those two Powers. If she was strong in those two, wouldn't you consider her to be a stronger channeler, with a strength disproportional to her raw strength? A woman strong in the male powers MUST be stronger than her average counterparts. Is Egwene stronger than Elayne because she is good with Earth too?<br /><br />Therefore, if anyone is to be strong in all five Powers it would be Lews Therin and Demandred. Can we really be certain that the other Forsaken are also strong in all five Powers even if they are so strong in raw strength?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">A One Power researcher<br />Defender of Lanfear<br />Grand Ninja-Nae'blis to be feared <br />Original Warder to Isa <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br />New Warder to Nossie <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />Toy to Seriana <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/winky.gif" border="0" /><br />Mystified by a Fan <br />Bonded Phelix - I was young, it happened so fast.</font><p></p>


created: 2006-09-12 10:02:22
subject: <b>I guess what I 'm saying is that</b>
body:
The &quot;dexterity&quot; that women have to make them equal to men is not the same as a channelers proficiency at a job.<br /><br />The female dexterity is a constant while strength in a power is a variable.  The way you presented your theory I felt like you were not taking into account that Lanfear for example could also have access to that variable &quot;dexterity&quot;.  I think the two concepts are separate at least in regard to your theory.<br /><br />A man can channel a 100 and use 100% for Fire.  A woman who can channel a 100 might only be able to use 80% for Fire but she might be able to use 100% thats all I was trying to clarify.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where did these Skimmers come from?  I mean if they didn't want to read the book they could have just Traveled to another author.  Why risk arriving at the wrong destination?  Why risk falling into darkness?</font><p></p>


created: 2006-09-20 12:18:27
subject: <b>a few other thoughts</b>
body:
about general dexterity<br /><br />i havnt got books near me so might be wrong but im sure rand in tfoh says that he can handle 8 flows which is impressive for a man (playing with fire maybe) while still at strength enough to block elaye and egwene while they held the source whereas when nynaeve and the strong seafolk women are duelling in caemlyn she is using 8 flows again but is struggling to counter the seafolks attacks might suggest that the reason rand is the strongest forsaken is that he has this superstrength


created: 2006-09-25 19:24:58
subject: <b>Good Idea</b>
body:
I never thought about the dexterity bit, and it actually makes a lot more sense.  It definitely helped me understand strength levels better.


created: 2006-10-02 21:07:40
subject: <b>Well</b>
body:
I don't know what math is &amp; I have never read the books. That said, I think you're spot on.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;These guys are special... These are crack soldiers... They are everywhere&#8230;yes, they really have us by our balls here&#8230; Can you get us out of here?&#8221;<br />Zarqawi about 3/504 PIR</font><p></p>


created: 2006-10-07 17:30:29
subject: <b>Healing weaves...</b>
body:
I agree with you about the strength of female channellers relative to male ones, but I would think that the advantage provided by dexterity would be greater, especially in some areas. Ny would be an obvious example, with her &#8216;new&#8217; form of healing making Elayne say &#8216;how can you do all of that at once? I could not keep track of half of it.&#8217; (Fire and Spirit, LoC) But later on (sorry, can&#8217;t find the exact quote) Romanda is saying how she couldn&#8217;t do the new healing very well, and there were novices and accepted who were much better! As you rightly pointed out, there aren&#8217;t many in salidar who have the power to make the shawl. This implies that the advantage in power made by using dexterity is much greater, so long as you actually have more complicated weaves to do. I&#8217;ve been thinking that the forsaken seem mostly contemptful of the Aes Sedai for being &#8216;half-trained&#8217; &#8211; not for being underpowered. Maybe the weaves they&#8217;ve got just aren&#8217;t up to what they&#8217;re trying to do with them.<br /><br />The Aes Sedai aren't exactly known for their stunning innovations, with most of their pre-conceived ideas hampering their use of the power, but the Asha'man have had to start from sratch. They've been making stuff up as they go along (like the male version of bonding, Flinn's version of healing, ect) so they just seem to have a greater advantage.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Crossy</font><p></p>


created: 2007-02-19 10:59:47
subject: <b>Angreal</b>
body:
The main thing I disagree with is several comments made that seem to indicate people believing that the only limit to drawing power with an angreal or sa'angreal.  Perhaps for a channeler like Ishamael or Lews Therin(Rand), the only limit is how much the object allows, but there's certainly a limit for more average channelers.  I remember on several occasions, the only one I can cite off the top of my head being Verin in the Great Hunt that there are very few channelers alive who would actually be able to use the Choedan Kal without burning themselves out.  There's certainly a limit to the amount of power a single person can draw, even with a sa'angreal that powerful, I just think for someone able to handle as much of the One Power as Rand or Ishamael can, there is yet to be, and perhaps never will be, a sa'angreal capable of reaching that limit.


created: 2007-06-21 19:23:41
subject: <b>I know your long gone but</b>
body:
The CK Access Keys would burn you out if you werent strong enough.  The access key for all intents and pruposes is the buffer for the sa'angreal.  No channeler can operate the CK directly.  A weak channeler who couldn't activate the ter'angreal properly would burn out like any other misused ter'angreal might do.<br /><br />To sidious I just reread the theory and I wanted to object to Moghediens and Ashmodeans strengths being different.  In my theory (which you so kindly revamped <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> )  I mention that Nynaeve &quot;was&quot; average male strength as of her Battle in the Rahad where she faced two above average women linked.  Because of the slower growth of women this means that she was nearly the same as when she left Tear where she was compared to Rand's shielding and abuse of two rare women.  This means that in Tear Rand was at average male strength and when he reached the Waste and faced Asmodean he was equal to him.  I doubt he gained that much strength in a few weeks so that means that Nynaeve Rand Asmodean and therefore Moghedien where all the approximate same strength at the same time.  Considering this it also proves how much Ishmael was holding back or how close the average man is to the strongest man.  anyway no one is probably going to see this but I might as well leave it here just in case<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where did these Skimmers come from?  I mean if they didn't want to read the book they could have just Traveled to another author.  Why risk arriving at the wrong destination?  Why risk falling into darkness?</font><p></p>


created: 2009-01-25 16:04:22
subject: <b>Males and Females cannot accurately measure each others' strength</b>
body:
It's a good theory all around. Well thought out.<br />My two cents is that short of linking, males can't really measure how much of the Power a female can hold and vice versa. There have been several examples of males and females linking,including Graendal and Sammael. Rare indeed for the forsaken to trust each other long enough, or one cow the other long enough. The most glaring example though, is during the cleansing of saidin. Eben and Daigian were linked with Beldeine in a circle. And Eben knew how little of the Power Daigian was drawing on.<br />This would explain how the male forsaken would seem to be sure that they are stronger than one of the opposite sex but nevertheless would not risk it unnecessarily. They generally rely on hearing from the females themselves how strong each other are. The fact that they would be unable to see flows of saidar also adds to their caution.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Is this in the Old Tongue?<br />&quot;Bah weep graaagnah wheep ni ni bong!&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2006-09-12 23:23:09
subject: <b>Moiraine's Role</b>
body:
I think M's role will be chiefly making sure Rand does not turn into a stone before the last battle + help teach him laughter and tears (w/ Cadsuane &amp; Wise One).<br /><br />Her name is at the top of the list, remember.<br /><br />And Rand trusts her. Even more so since her letter. I think she'll stay close by and be his advisor (replacing Cadsuane).


created: 2006-09-13 04:11:52
subject: <b>I don't see Moiraine as an Elijah.</b>
body:
I think she's more of a Gandalf, where her fall into the ter'angreal is akin to Gandalf's at Kazad-Dum, along with the powerful enemy he fought (Balrog = Lanfear, though the latter is somewhat prettier).<br /><br />Gandalf returned changed, and more powerful. <br /><br />So will she.(?)


created: 2006-09-13 09:43:54
subject: <b>To Kazoo</b>
body:
If you think about it...Gandalf alos has many connections to Elijah.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>you know you can't leave Wotmania. It's kinda like herpes, you can just never really get rid of it.</i><br />Kit <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /></font><p><a href="http://www.cbgxtra.com/" target="_blank">Comics Buyer's Guide XTRA</a></p><p></p>


created: 2006-09-13 13:16:39
subject: <b>I don't think so...</b>
body:
There are good connections in this theory to the book so I voted yes, and it's just my point of view, but I just don't really see it as a parrallel that RJ was trying to run. Oh Well.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;What do you mean, why's it got to be built?&quot; he said. &quot;It's a bypass. You've got to build bypasses.&quot; - Mr Prosser, head builder</font><p></p>


created: 2006-09-13 13:20:40
subject: <b>Good thought, not sure I'm convinced.</b>
body:
I like the analogy, even if I'm not convinced the connection is really there.<br /><br />As to whether M. will return with knowledge or power - think about it.  Rand is <b>not</b> in need of another powerful channeler, but he <b>is</b> in need of knowledge, especially of that which M. might be able to bring.<br /><br />


created: 2006-09-13 16:03:35
subject: <b>Son of the Southern US eh?</b>
body:
i know some non-religious folk from the dear old south who grew up with no religion. it seems fairly obvious that rj did, or at least studied it, but that generality is just a little bit off.<br /><br />aside from that i liked your theory, though i could've sworn an elijah comparison had been drawn before. and i also agree with el kazoo, i see moraine more as a gandalf character.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;It's ridiculous to suggest that a team could go through a season in our league without losing. It's comical, just comical.&quot; Alex Ferguson 27th September 2002<br /><br />gooner...red and white army...<br /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gimli.gif" border="0" /> my soulmate<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/clown.gif" border="0" /> my nemesis</font><p></p>


created: 2006-09-13 16:37:55
subject: <b>Cadsuane</b>
body:
I see Elijah as more like Cadsuane with all the retirements.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">A jury is a group of twelve people chosen to see who has a better lawyer. -Douglas Adams<br /><br />Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent<br /><br />Go Duke!</font><p></p>


created: 2006-09-14 05:38:14
subject: <b>Bah.</b>
body:
<b>1. Had a &quot;follower&quot; (Nynaeve) that would wind up a greater power (1 Kings call this a Double Portion)</b><br /><br />Nynaeve is hardly her follower.  She accompanied Moiraine to make sure Moiraine didn't screw her friends over.  She hated Moiraine.<br /><br /><b>3. Elijah anointed and directed kings</b><br /><br />And no king ever listened to Moiraine, nor did anyone become king by her authority.  Rand took over Tear in his own right as Dragon Reborn, and went after Callandor AGAINST her orders.  In addition, he became ruler of the Chosen People, the 12 clans that wandered, dwelled in the desert and from whose blood the savior would be born, AGAINST her advice.  Elijah was an authority figure sent by God to set His people straight.  Rand was the divinely established character, whom Moiraine was trying to sway to her own ends.  If Moiraine belongs in any epic religious-type work, it is in the bottom of Hell with the other false councilors of Dante's Inferno.<br /><br /><b>4. Battled Jezebel. Jezebel = Lanfear</b><br /><br />Served a bad ruler.  Jezebel = Siuan.  Really, on what basis do you compare Jezebel to Lanfear, aside from both having vaginas?<br /><br /><b>5. Wanted to quit but Higher power would not allow</b><br /><br />When did she want to quit?  Are we talking about the woman who begged and grovelled to keep Rand from ignoring her, and never stopped scheming to be in charge?<br /><br /><b>6. Born to a life of privilege</b><br /><br />You're right, they're totally the same?  I mean, how many literary characters can you say this about?  No characters are ever born to a life of privilege.  They're practically twins!<br /><br /><b>7. Will return ...after not having &quot;seen&quot; death</b><br /><br />Except Elijah never left letters to give the impression that he died to make people feel sorry for him so they would listen when he came back!  And there is a difference between taken away by God for a special purpose, and engineering your disappearance to another dimension, and playing noble with one letter, and turning around writing a manipulative letter begging for help!<br /><br /><b>8. Challenged and defeated priest of Baal/ Be'lal</b> <br /><br />Shooting someone in the back is exactly the same as publicly proving the impotence of their cause.<br /><br /><b>9. Felt was alone in the battle but not really -Elijah and the 7000 God had set apart= Cads, Verin, Siuan.etc.</b><br /><br />When did Moiraine feel alone?  She had pretty much the greatest warrior known watching her back, waiting on her hand and foot and ready to carve on people who were rude to her, and up until the very end, assumed Siuan had her covered on the political end of things!<br /><br /><b>10. Desert time: Moiraine with the Aiel and the Rings, Elijah in the cave with God's &quot;Still small voice&quot;</b><br /><br />Moiraine's time in the desert subverting the authority of the Light's chosen savior by helping savage witch doctors spy on him IS just like communing with God.  <br /><br /><b>Robert Jordan is a Son of the Southern United States and regardless of if his personal views on the matter are he had to have encountered either in his studies for WoT material or just by living here in the South.</b><br /><br />And thus, probably is more likely to &quot;get&quot; what Elijah is all about.  If he WERE drawing a parallel, it would go a lot deeper than this superficial and forced comparison.<br /><br /><b>I see Moiraine&#8217;s return connected with Elijah in the following ways:</b><br /><br />1. She &#8220;died&#8221; but did not die. (Elijah rode the whirlwind to heaven.)<br /><br />2. She will return (as Elijah does on the Mount of Transfiguration) to stand beside the Savior.<br /><br />3. Here comes the big one: Many believe that Elijah will be one of the 2 Witness to come from the Book of the Revelation and be far more empowered than his last earthly work. Moiraine will return from captivity/being thought dead bearing much knowledge (or a greater OP strength)  that will make her far more powerful and dangerous. She will then spend much time &#8220;proclaiming&#8221; the Dragon&#8217;s wishes to those that will not wish to hear them. (Perhaps as an Ambassador of some type or even as a Regent.)&lt;/b&gt;<br /><br /><b>So...How about it? Is there some possible connection between the stories of Elijah and how Moiraine will be made use of once she returns?</b><br /><br />Like an earlier theory comparing another character to a biblical figure, this makes much of forced and superficial resemblances, while missing the point of the biblical character.  Had Jordan intended such a parallel, he would have connected them better at the heart of their stories.  If any character would be inspired by the Old Testament prophets, it would be Maseema.  Because of the shoddy comparisons and poorly proven similarities, I cannot accept this theory.  It may be possible or even probable, but your evidence does not support it.  One may say the sun will come up tomorrow with a good certainty of being right, but saying &quot;The sun will come UP, because heat RISES,&quot; is a crummy way to prove it, and proves a lack of understanding of astronomy and physics.  This chain of &quot;evidence&quot; displays a similar lacking in understanding Elijah's story, Moiraine's character, or Jordan's writing style.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


created: 2006-09-14 09:39:26
subject:
<b>Ah, Cannoli so could to read a BB post filled with cheer and civilty. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /></b>

body:
<i>Me: 1. Had a &quot;follower&quot; (Nynaeve) that would wind up a greater power (1 Kings call this a Double Portion)</i><br /><br /><b>You: Nynaeve is hardly her follower. She accompanied Moiraine to make sure Moiraine didn't screw her friends over. She hated Moiraine.</b><br />Nynaeve &quot;followed&quot; Moi and Co out of the 2 Rivers.<br />Elisha left all he had(right in the middle of doing his &quot;work&quot; to follow Elijah. RJ takes from many sources and then twist things(sometmes in ironical fashion) to tell his tale. Or have not ever noticed this....for shame.<br /><br /><i>Me: 3. Elijah anointed and directed kings</i><br /><br /><b>Sweet little old you: And no king ever listened to Moiraine, nor did anyone become king by her authority. Rand took over Tear in his own right as Dragon Reborn, and went after Callandor AGAINST her orders. In addition, he became ruler of the Chosen People, the 12 clans that wandered, dwelled in the desert and from whose blood the savior would be born, AGAINST her advice. Elijah was an authority figure sent by God to set His people straight. Rand was the divinely established character, whom Moiraine was trying to sway to her own ends. If Moiraine belongs in any epic religious-type work, it is in the bottom of Hell with the other false councilors of Dante's Inferno.</b><br /><br />Rand is this &quot;king&quot; I was referring to... that whole deal with the Banner of the Dragon(also you could make a smaller connection with Elisja getting Elijah's Mantle.) It's so sweet when you miss the obvious in order to rant...  most endearing.<br /><br /><i>Me: 4. Battled Jezebel. Jezebel = Lanfear</i><br /><br /><b>You: Served a bad ruler. Jezebel = Siuan. Really, on what basis do you compare Jezebel to Lanfear, aside from both having vaginas?</b><br /><br />Oh, come now, Cannoli...are you this blinded by your need to insert the word vagina into things that you miss this one..One so obvious you startle me by missing it....<br />Lanfear tried many times to seduce rand away from his purpose and destiny so she could run things...<br />Jezebel did seduce Ahab(the king) away from his God, his people and his power..using sex, lies and violence...see the similarities..<br /><br /><i>me:5. Wanted to quit but Higher power would not allow</i><br /><br /><b>You: When did she want to quit? Are we talking about the woman who begged and grovelled to keep Rand from ignoring her, and never stopped scheming to be in charge?</b><br /><br /><br />This happens 2 times in <i>New Spring</i> ...<br />She wanted nothing to do with being Queen of her homeland...so she ran away....<br />She wanted to quit dealing with the Bounty..and the only way that got stopped was the death of the one that put her in charge of it. I thought you actually read these books...I seem to remember you telling others they need to be morer aware of what the books contain..<br /><br />and In the time with rand she &quot;quit&quot; trying to force Rand and instead began to help...<br /><br />Then there is that whole... thing she learned from Lan about not quitting till she died.<br /><br /><br /><i>Me: 6. Born to a life of privilege</i><br /><br /><b>you: You're right, they're totally the same? I mean, how many literary characters can you say this about? No characters are ever born to a life of privilege. They're practically twins!</b><br /><br />Well..with Elijah the privilege was just a speculation on my part..little is know of the early days of the Tishibite...This was a part of my notes that I failed to delete as I  could not make much from it. You are very right here...it should have been cut. Sorry about that.<br /><br /><br /><i>Me:7. Will return ...after not having &quot;seen&quot; death</i><br /><br /><b>Except Elijah never left letters to give the impression that he died to make people feel sorry for him so they would listen when he came back! And there is a difference between taken away by God for a special purpose, and engineering your disappearance to another dimension, and playing noble with one letter, and turning around writing a manipulative letter begging for help!</b><br /><br />DO you recall me mentioning that RJ borrows from many sources and then uses them as he need them to fit his tale.<br />Remember also..you do read the books right.... that in RJ's fictional Universe..the Creator doesn't step in and do such things...new methodology for a this universe.<br /><br /><i>8. Challenged and defeated priest of Baal/ Be'lal </i><br /><br /><b>Shooting someone in the back is exactly the same as publicly proving the impotence of their cause.</b><br /> That thing I mentioned about making use of diffferent sources in different ways...you still don't get that do you? task task.. the major connection here is the name Baal and Be'lal...<br /><br /><br /><i>9. Felt was alone in the battle but not really -Elijah and the 7000 God had set apart= Cads, Verin, Siuan.etc.</i><br /><br /><b>When did Moiraine feel alone? She had pretty much the greatest warrior known watching her back, waiting on her hand and foot and ready to carve on people who were rude to her, and up until the very end, assumed Siuan had her covered on the political end of things!</b><br /><br /><br />Cannoli...go read a few of her thoughts...before Bonding Lan....<br /><br /><i>10. Desert time: Moiraine with the Aiel and the Rings, Elijah in the cave with God's &quot;Still small voice&quot;</i><br /><br /><b>Moiraine's time in the desert subverting the authority of the Light's chosen savior by helping savage witch doctors spy on him IS just like communing with God.</b><br /><br />Amazing...you focus on that..when I specifically point to the Rings...You just love to find ways to hide your tender wotamaics heart. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br /><i>Robert Jordan is a Son of the Southern United States and regardless of if his personal views on the matter are he had to have encountered either in his studies for WoT material or just by living here in the South.</i><br /><br /><b>And thus, probably is more likely to &quot;get&quot; what Elijah is all about. If he WERE drawing a parallel, it would go a lot deeper than this superficial and forced comparison.</b><br /><br />Cannoli...of course he went deeper..thus his use of the whole thing...I worked on this a long time...and finally cut it down to managable read....Ya see... I &quot;get&quot; Elijah ...I too am a Son of The South.....and I thought  that it was obvious that RJ was only making partial use of this source....<br /><br /><i>I see Moiraine&#8217;s return connected with Elijah in the following ways:<br /><br />1. She &#8220;died&#8221; but did not die. (Elijah rode the whirlwind to heaven.)<br /><br />2. She will return (as Elijah does on the Mount of Transfiguration) to stand beside the Savior.<br /><br />3. Here comes the big one: Many believe that Elijah will be one of the 2 Witness to come from the Book of the Revelation and be far more empowered than his last earthly work. Moiraine will return from captivity/being thought dead bearing much knowledge (or a greater OP strength) that will make her far more powerful and dangerous. She will then spend much time &#8220;proclaiming&#8221; the Dragon&#8217;s wishes to those that will not wish to hear them. (Perhaps as an Ambassador of some type or even as a Regent.)<br /><br />So...How about it? Is there some possible connection between the stories of Elijah and how Moiraine will be made use of once she returns?</i><br /><br /><b>Like an earlier theory comparing another character to a biblical figure, this makes much of forced and superficial resemblances, while missing the point of the biblical character.</b><br />Perhaps you see it that way.... I do not. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><b> Had Jordan intended such a parallel, he would have connected them better at the heart of their stories. If any character would be inspired by the Old Testament prophets, it would be Maseema. Because of the shoddy comparisons and poorly proven similarities, I cannot accept this theory. It may be possible or even probable, but your evidence does not support it. One may say the sun will come up tomorrow with a good certainty of being right, but saying &quot;The sun will come UP, because heat RISES,&quot; is a crummy way to prove it, and proves a lack of understanding of astronomy and physics. This chain of &quot;evidence&quot; displays a similar lacking in understanding Elijah's story, Moiraine's character, or Jordan's writing style.</b><br /><br /><br />Really? A poor understanding... Maybe..but I'm more inclined after reading your reply to think that you caryy the faults you accuse me of.... Not a word in all you said makes me doubt my ideas less.... a few do, however, make me wonder if you don't need to read the Wheel of Time..you seem to miss so much..<br /><br />and your foced and clumsy attempt at ridicule was so cute..<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>you know you can't leave Wotmania. It's kinda like herpes, you can just never really get rid of it.</i><br />Kit <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /></font><p><a href="http://www.cbgxtra.com/" target="_blank">Comics Buyer's Guide XTRA</a></p><p></p>


created: 2006-09-14 11:47:10
subject: <b>Good job Brad, I'm impressed</b>
body:
I don't know much about Elijah except what I read in your Theory, but I can certainly see the similarities there. And to all the &quot;yeah, but she's Gandalf&quot; posters, it certainly possible for a character to have more than one source. <br /><br />NaCl(well thought out and well written)H2O <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Any comments on my photos appreciated</font><p><a href="http://saltwater.smugmug.com/" target="_blank">My photos, a work in progress</a></p><p></p>


created: 2006-09-14 12:18:55
subject: <b>I gave a thumb up Brad</b>
body:
I understand your reasoning and it was well written. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Elijah could have been a part of RJ`s sources, but not wholly.<br /><br />But I can`t agree Nynaeve was the follower; if anyone, it was Egwene.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2006-09-14 23:29:30
subject: <b>two small things</b>
body:
You did a lot of research. I appreciate that. I would like to point out 2 things though. When the winds took Elijah into the heavens, he was planted firmly on the ground elsewhere. This is found at 2 Chronicles 2:12, where the king receives a letter from him. Incidentally, this is the successor, so time has lapsed.<br /><br />Another thing I wanted to point out is that a portion is, by definition, less than the whole. This means, therefore, that a &quot;double portion&quot; does not mean Elisha was stronger. The double portion refers to the practice of inheritance where the firstborn son received two parts in comparison to any other sons. This is referenced at Deuteronomy 21:17. Neither was Elisha stronger, nor was he asking to be. He was asking, in effect, to inherit Elijah's prophetic abilities as if he were the firstborn. It illustrated his kinship with his predecessor as well as devotion to being a prophet of God.<br /><br />As for the theory itself, I neither agree nor disagree.


created: 2006-09-15 11:54:09
subject: <b>I'm not well-versed in Biblical studies, myself</b>
body:
However, even I can see the similarities that I think you established rather well. <br /><br />And I also agree with Jo. Egwene was much more of a follower to Moiraine than Nynaeve. All that time spent in the Aiel Waste together, plus the fact she left the Two Rivers voluntarily to go with the original group. Egwene actually had teachings from Moiraine, whereas Nynaeve didn't.<br /><br />All-in-all, a good theory that may give some clues to Moiraine's returning role. I gave it a thumbs up!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2006-09-15 16:34:09
subject: <b>Sigh...</b>
body:
I hate to say this, but yeah. Egwene is definetly the follower, not Nyneave. Overall the connections exist, but I still kind of think that she won't be very directly related to Elijah. She seems to be primarily derived from different sources, at least in my mind. Still, it is possible.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Egwene must die.<br />Rand Al'Thor will face her wrath...<br />And laugh in her face!</font><p></p>


created: 2006-09-16 07:03:32
subject: <b>Good theory</b>
body:
This was an excellent theory to read and was well researched. Well done Brad! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> I'm not sure if I totally agree though and I think that Elijah was more of a parallel rather than an inspiration for the author.<br /><br />My problem with Moiraine is that I dispute her importance to the series. While she remains one of my favourite characters, I also believe that her absence is not that important and that if she had died, the Light would have gone on just fine. Her skill with the One Power is definitely not vast as the theory claims, and her knowledge was above average at best. I think Cadsuane is a superior alternative to Moiraine in many ways.<br /><br />I also don't really see a parallel between Elijah riding up to Heaven and Moiraine falling through the doorway with Lanfear. Elijah's ascension seemed honorable whereas Moiraine's seemed degrading - especially since we know that she is a captive in another dimension and needs to be rescued.<br /><br />In all, although I admire the parallels (which are far greater than I first anticipated), I'm not sure if Moiraine is in the same class of hero as Elijah. Though her contribution to the Light was profound, I don't agree that she is sorely missed and I think Tarmon Gai'don could be won without her.<br /><br />The one to follow does seem like Egwene though - who was always a loyal follower to Moiraine, and surpassed her by book 4 already.<br /><br />An excellent theory <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">A One Power researcher<br />Defender of Lanfear<br />Grand Ninja-Nae'blis to be feared <br />Original Warder to Isa <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br />New Warder to Nossie <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />Toy to Seriana <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/winky.gif" border="0" /><br />Mystified by a Fan <br />Bonded Phelix - I was young, it happened so fast.</font><p></p>


created: 2006-09-17 03:53:04
subject:
<b>Oh, THIS theory.... <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/blush.gif" border="0" /></b>

body:
I like it as far as it goes.  Though I'm still not convinced the Two Witnesses are Elijah and Moses.  But that's a whole other discussion.  <br /><br />And I have to disagree with sid that the Light would go onto victory without Moiraine, primarily because Min's directly contradicted it.  Her relative importance is established by the fact she's critical to Rands victory against the DO.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Warder to the unrivalled Rival.  Let the competition (such as it is) fear my wrath!<br /><br /><i>For full disclosure, subtract ~2000 from my CMB views.</i><br /><br />Love can't be coerced.<br /><br />Seek in Joel what goodness God gave me; seek the ill no more, for it and I are dead.</font><p></p>


created: 2006-09-26 19:58:02
subject: <b>Gandalf, Elijah</b>
body:
Due to the similarities, prehaps Tolkien based Gandalf on Elijah, and Jordan then could have taken references from one or both, since they're all connected.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;You see&quot; Ingtar said softly, &quot;we are no easy meat.&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2006-10-02 21:25:54
subject: <b>hrmmm</b>
body:
Well now... I have frequently stated that if Mo came back I would be less than happy. <br /><br />However, pointing out the Elijah possibility &amp; realizing that RJ does twist legend, myth &amp; history... I won't be so depressed- depending on what she does with it.<br /><br />Good job Mr. Brad.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;These guys are special... These are crack soldiers... They are everywhere&#8230;yes, they really have us by our balls here&#8230; Can you get us out of here?&#8221;<br />Zarqawi about 3/504 PIR</font><p></p>


created: 2006-09-13 11:09:54
subject: <b>hmmmmm</b>
body:
I just don't know how poetic you're getting. You say &quot;Order will triumph over Chaos, and the Pattern will, in effect, seal the Bore itself.&quot; If that were the case, then couldn't the Bore have just resealed itself immediately, since the Age of Legends didn't know war at the time? I think that Rand's time is riven with far more strife, and couldn't possibly become more ordered that the AoL. Isn't there the Prophecy about the great battle fought, but the world not done with battle? There are too many loose ends (Rand in exile in another body, Logain or Narishma leading the BT), for me to say that everyone will get along.<br /><br />Doesn't Herid Fel also say that Order gives strength? Strength doesn't indicate to me victory or a whole Bore.


created: 2006-09-13 13:28:29
subject: <b>No, I think</b>
body:
The thought of &quot;Chaos&quot; and &quot;Peace&quot; is only relative. If randland was united at this instant, it would seem like peace to them, but would have been considered utter disorder by those in the AoL. Furthermore, I very much doubt that the DO or the creator put much stock on lines that exist on a map, or how well people get along.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;What do you mean, why's it got to be built?&quot; he said. &quot;It's a bypass. You've got to build bypasses.&quot; - Mr Prosser, head builder</font><p></p>


created: 2006-09-13 13:32:47
subject: <b>Right Track?</b>
body:
I think you may be on the right track, but we haven't got it worked all out just yet.  I don't have a specific theory about how the bore will be re-sealed.  I'm pretty sure it will not be &quot;re-sealed&quot;, so much as the bore will be removed.  I don't think this will be by some powerful application of magic, like the cleansing was, but by something more subtle.<br /><br />So I voted YES, even though I think your <u>specific</u> theory about how this will happen is probably not right.


created: 2006-09-14 18:16:37
subject: <b>Two things.</b>
body:
1. This is not Recluse.<br /><br />2. Associating Order with the Light, and Chaos with the Dark is simplying to the point of complete nonsense. No offense intended, really. Order and Chaos are two &quot;forces&quot; of existence, they are not good, nor are they bad. Order is &quot;good&quot; because it's calm, but too much calm and things stagnate. Chaos is &quot;bad&quot; because it's very turbulent, but we need turbulence to drive us forward. Trying to define them as either one thing or another cannot simply work, for the simple reason that they're things that just are. Furthermore, they're both necessary.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Enjoy life as you would a buxom tavern wench: It is good for the moment, but you never know if it'll stay that way.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-purple.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2006-09-16 10:09:01
subject: <b>Original</b>
body:
This is a very original theory. However, I always saw the sealing of the bore being something we've been seeing since book one. What do ta'veren do? They &quot;alter&quot; the pattern, make it spin around themselves. What is the bore? A hole drilled in the pattern. I see the bore being sealed by all three ta'veren due to BEING ta'veren. The threads of the pattern will redistribute over the hole in the pattern due to a ta'veren moving them around himself... ehhhh not likely I know. The reason for Tarmon Gaidon is that the Dark One won't sit by while this is happening. Nice originality though. I have to disagree because like others stated: Order is not good, Chaos is not evil.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Egwene must die.<br />Rand Al'Thor will face her wrath...<br />And laugh in her face!</font><p></p>


created: 2006-09-24 06:54:10
subject: <b>Hmm...</b>
body:
It is an interesting theory, but I just wana say that Chaos is not evil, order is not good.<br />And anyway have you thought about what would happen without one or the other. Without Chaos there can be no true order.<br />I'm sorry, I just don't think this has anything to do with Order and Chaos<br />


created: 2006-10-02 04:03:40
subject: <b>I think I see what you're suggesting</b>
body:
<br />However, I don't know if it is possible. The way I see it, the Bore is a hole somewhere in the middle of a very large piece of fabric. Meanwhile, lives are spinning out their threads, adding to the &quot;Age Lace&quot;. But, where are these new threads being placed? I would have to say as with any piece of fabric, they are being woven on the outer edges. <br /><br />So, to repair the damage, you might need to unravel the threads all the way back to the point where the Bore was first created, and then reweave it anew. From what we have witnessed in KoD, that may be precisely what the Pattern is doing right now. (RJ himself described this as a &quot;loosening of the Pattern&quot; in his Blog.<br /><br />I don't think the damage will repair itself even if it does unravel to that point. It will take some quick &quot;weaving&quot; to make it new and keep the DO on the outside like it was originally. <br /><br />If there is any importance left to the seals, it might be that they are slowing down the unraveling, giving Rand time to prepare. Once it has unraveled far enough, it will be time to break them and start the &quot;New Age&quot;.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2006-09-14 08:48:53
subject: <b>I have to vote no..</b>
body:
For this one simple reason:<br /><br />If CAdsuane had not felt Semi's OP strength she would have remarked on it.&quot;This woman Cannot Channel.&quot;  ..or some such... and since they had already dealt witha woman that Could channel saidin at the Cleansing one of the Ashaman would have said something.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>you know you can't leave Wotmania. It's kinda like herpes, you can just never really get rid of it.</i><br />Kit <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /></font><p><a href="http://www.cbgxtra.com/" target="_blank">Comics Buyer's Guide XTRA</a></p><p></p>


created: 2006-09-14 10:09:56
subject: <b>Hmmm, it just doesn't add up...</b>
body:
While a very detailed theory it just doesn't add up for one simple fact: If Aran'gar was using a layered Mask of Mirrors to pose as Anath posing as Tuon, her appearance as Semirhage would have disappeared when she was shielded. Lews Therin knows Semirhage's face, and not Aran'gar's, so it's definitely Semirhage's face under the Tuon MoM. If suddenly the entire appearance of this Semirhage shifted from a tall dark skinned woman, to a smaller lighter skinned woman SOMEONE would have commented. Also, make a note of this quotation:<br /><br />&quot;Abruptly, no more than ten paces away, she... flickered. For an instant she was taller than most men, garbed in all black, surprise on her face&quot; ( KoD, A Plain Wooden Box )<br /><br />Semirhage is surprised. Why? Because her MoM is failing. Cadsuane said she could do something about the person channeling once she got closer to the woman, and she did. She interrupted the flow of Semirhage's MoM. This is further backed up later in the paragraph.<br /><br />&quot;but another flicker, and the tall dark woman stood there, her face twisted in fury behind the veil.&quot; ( KoD, A Plain wooden box )<br /><br />See, now she is ANGRY that her illusion is flickering. That wasn't part of her plan. Cadsuane was directly interfering with her MoM. If Cadsuane was breaking through the one illusion, she would have most certainly broken through both. And when the &quot;tall dark woman&quot; was shielded her alleged second illusion would have been shattered for certain.


created: 2006-09-14 14:17:45
subject: <b>I agree with the post above</b>
body:
Too much of this theory is based on Aran'gar acting as Semirhage, and Semirhage not taking risks. I too believe that Semirhage allowed herself to be capture (The plan to capture Rand had a probability success rate of 2^233467891:1 against; a koala in brain surgery could see that it was going to fail), but this theory is a no go.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;What do you mean, why's it got to be built?&quot; he said. &quot;It's a bypass. You've got to build bypasses.&quot; - Mr Prosser, head builder</font><p></p>


created: 2006-09-14 21:23:31
subject: <b>Aran'gar with the SAS</b>
body:
When Aran'gar appears in Egwene's tent that night sounding &quot;...wound up tight, almost excited&quot; within pages we learn that Anaiya was killed by Saidin, so I disagree with your conclusion that it implies Aran'gar knows about the attack on the WT by watching Egwene's dreams.  (S)he would have had to be asleep to spy on Egwene's dreams, which (s)he wasn't.  If Aran'gar knows about the attack, it's because Egwene told someone else in the camp after having the dream.<br /><br />You also wrote: &quot;(didn't Halima leave the rebel Aes Sedai camp with large bundles? (KoD, p. 499)&quot;  If you'll recall Chesa mentioning to Egwene that two of her maids had run off and it was horrible of them to do so.  I believe it is implied that the bundles Aran'gar leave the camp with are those maids who (s)he murdered.  <br /><br />Others have already pointed out why Aran'gar could not have been posing as Semi.  I think you misinterpreted some very clear, basic stuff when you came up with this very detailed, complex theory.  You might be right about Aran'gar wanting to break up the D-M-S alliance, but I don't think it's this way.  Kudos on all the thought you put into the theory.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /> Survivor of Historical Inquizition ... barely <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Who can say if I've been changed for the better, but because I knew you I have been changed for good -- Wicked<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2006-09-15 03:38:20
subject: <b>I knew this theory wasn't going to be generally accepted, but...ouch</b>
body:
to bcondray...<br /><br />one of my points is that there is an absence of comments on the subject. Cadsuane doesn't say anything about channeling, or about her ter'angreals, or a lack of something...nothing. As to the Asha'man, the only man who knew/felt a woman channeling saidin, is dead. Narishma made a point about that in KoD.<br /><br /><br />to Lanfears Last Chance, and Demosthenes...<br /><br />I don't know if this has ever been explained, but I thought that Aran'gar tied off a weave of saidin, then got shielded. Is there anything about a tied off weave dissapating after one gets shielded? I just thought you couldn't reach the source,  not that you couldn't keep something TIED OFF. Honestly, not sure. Hopefully someone has something. But that was what I said in my theory. As for the flickering, no one ever claimed to have caused that, not Nynaeve, not Cadsuane, which I found suspicious.<br /><br />to dilirah...<br /><br />Yes, I originally thought none of the FO knew about the Seanchan attack. However, I think that Aran'gar's comment in KoD about finding Egwene's dreams was too telling. Maybe the concept of Anaiya's death was meant to lead us in the wrong direction. Honestly, with just that info, I could go either way. However, my original theory got overturned because of all the other &quot;evidence&quot; that I found that said Aran'gar knew something too good to not let the Shadow know about- namely, the Seanchan attack. P.S. Thanks for the kudos.<br /><br />to Skeeve the Great...<br /><br />Your post gave me a chuckle. I hadn't thought about it that way. To be honest, I have trouble believing this, and I wrote the theory. However, looking at the evidence, there are too many loopholes and exceptions. I think that this theory gives a lot of answers (granted, they may be far-fetched), but they put together something that is supposedly going to end in ONE more book. I know it's crazy, but I thought it made some sense, and I kinda wanna hear some input as to what others think about some of the unsolved questions that I could only explain with this theory (ie: the Trolloc numbers). Feel free to say what you will. I will take no offense. I just want to understand what's going on, and/or hear other ideas. That's my biggest incentive for putting forth theories where I add in concepts contrary to my own.


created: 2006-09-15 09:51:11
subject: <b>I did consider a tied off weave...</b>
body:
I did consider the possibility of a tied off weave, because to the best of my knowledge one doesn't have to be channeling to sustain it. So, yes, technically he/she could be using a tied off weave.<br /><br />However, that doesn't explain the surprise and anger on Semirhage's face when her Tuon MoM failed. She was obiously surprised that someone saw through her inverted weaves, she didn't count of someone to know right away she was channeling. While no one claimed responsibility for disrupting her weaves, I find it very likely that Cadsuane did. Before it happened, Cadsuane said she would do something about the person channeling, and then that something happened. Logically this points to Cadsuane. For example, if my roommate says he'll take out the trash and I come back and the trash is empty, I can safely assume he did it. While I didn't see him do it, it doesn't matter. He said he would, and then it gets done. It's a logical assumption.<br /><br />Also, if Aran'gar is posing as Semirhage, what the heck happened to the real one? I doubt she would sit idly by while some other Forsaken sullied her &quot;good&quot; name. The Seanchan received reports of someone posing as the Daughter, right about the time Anath left. It just fits. Also, if Aran'gar is posing as Semirhage, where's Delana?<br /><br />Lastly, the timing is all wrong. &quot;Halima&quot; JUST left the Salidar Aes Sedai. There is no way in Shayol Ghul that she was able to establich herself as Tuon in that short a time, if at all. Remember, the Seanchan were told to kill anyone claiming to be the Daughter of the Nine Moons. If Aran'gar had tried that, he/she would have been attacked, not given a small amount of damane and sul'dam. If they didn't try to kill him/her on sight, surely they would have taken Aran'gar back to the palace. <br /><br />Semirhage was already with the Seanchan doing the impersonating. This happened before KoD as there were claims of an impersonator in CoT. So that messes with the timing even more. &quot;Halima&quot; was definitely still with the Salidar Aes Sedai when this &quot;Tuon&quot; started out. Mat found out about the order to kill Tuon imposters in CoT shortly before the &quot;DoNM&quot; showed up at Rand's doorstep. This was RJ showing us the obvious deception. It just COULD NOT be Aran'gar. He/she was miles away at the time the impersonation started, and I highly doubt Semirhage would just up and leave her golden opportunity to strike at Rand. Yeah, it's out of character for her to attack Rand head on, but it probably wasn't a direct attack. She honestly thought her disguise would hold and potentially she could collar him. In her eyes, that would have made her Nae'blis for certain(remember, the DO told the rest of the Forsaken that the title is still up for grabs, even if it isn't).<br /><br />However, I DO agree that Aran'gar is up to something. I just don't think that this is it. He/she probably has a backup plan involving the Aes Sedai and possibly the Seanchan and Egwene's dream, but this isn't it. To say that Aran'gar is posing as Semirhage just isn't logical.


created: 2006-09-15 10:20:29
subject: <b>One thing I forgot</b>
body:
I forgot to mention that even if Aran'gar did set this DotNM scam up in advance, there's still no way she could have been there. Not even the Forsaken can be in two places at once. Someone would have noticed her prolonged absence from either camp, and &quot;Halima&quot; was still trying to manipulate the sitters, and that was a full time job as it were.


created: 2006-09-15 16:18:33
subject: <b>Plausible... kinda</b>
body:
In all reality I don't think Aran'gar is impersonating Semi, but it is plausible. It is possible to tie off a weave and know to the second when it will dissipate, allowing for shock to appear on &quot;Semi's&quot; face as an act as the weave wore off. I agree Aran'gar is up to something but I still kind of think that Messy knows about the Seanchan attack because for a near certainty Semi does and thus I would assume Messy does as well. I think you found some decent evidence for this overall, I find the lack of PoV after the capture suspicious as well. My main problem with this whole thing was really just the fact that Cadsuane does have a ter'angreal that stops channeling and this quote: &quot;But I can do something about it. Once were closer' Her golden hair ornaments swayed as she tossed her cloak back as though unmasking a sword&quot;. Then the MoM fell. Seems pretty obvious that it was Cadsuane. The whole &quot;unmasking a sword&quot; thing makes me think her ter'angreal, which we know she wears in her hair. I suppose we'll just have to RAFO.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Egwene must die.<br />Rand Al'Thor will face her wrath...<br />And laugh in her face!</font><p></p>


created: 2006-09-15 19:14:09
subject: <b>Impossible</b>
body:
It's a well written theory, congratulations on your work.<br /><br />However, it does not work.<br /><br />It has to be saidar Semirhage was using. Rand or the Asha'man would have spotted saidin being used for the fireball, Cadsuane or Nynaeve would have commented on not feeling saidar or not being able to feel the woman's ability. Aran'gar would be exposed as a fraud and not at all Semirhage very soon too and so it makes no sense whatsoever for her to get captured like this when she knows from Delana that the Asha'man have a personal grudge against her for her killings at the Cleansing.<br /><br />Furthermore, Semirhage was <i>not</i> holding her mask of mirrors. It had to be tied off and inverted and she was masking her ability until exposed. If Cadsuane's ter'angreal can break weaves of saidin, it would have destroyed the second mask of mirrors used to portray Anath. If Cadsuane's ter'angreal work only on saidar, then... it was saidar.   And why it had to be inverted and tied off?  Because Semirhage came with and was surrounded by sul'dam/damane who had no idea she could channel!!! They had no idea what her Gateway was, obvioulsy it was inverted and tied off too. Sul'dam would arrest even <i>Tuon</i> for channeling, strip her of name and title and send her back leashed to her mother who would erase her name altogether from the family's genealogy.<br /><br />Cadsuane or Nynaeve (or both, I don't recall - and I don't remember for sure if Nynaeve or Cadsuane's the one who broke Semirhage's disguise) have a ter'angreal much like Mat's except it can target an area and can break those weaves.  Cadsuane commented on this to Rand - that she could do something if the woman came close enough. She just didn't expect the result would break a Mask of Mirrors.<br /><br />And I agree with those who mentionned above that under the MOM was Anath, aka Semirhage.  She's a statuesque black woman, not a stunning vamp from the Borderlands like Halima.<br />LTT recognized Semirhage.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="images/personalsmilies/30778.gif" />Wheel of Time Reference Library : Articles, maps, charts and misc.<img src="images/personalsmilies/30778.gif" /><br /><br /></font><p><a href="http://13depository.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">The Thirteenth Depository - a Wheel of Time Blog</a></p><p></p>


created: 2006-09-16 01:40:07
subject: <b>Semirhage would have thought to use a blindfold on the Seanchan before the Gateway</b>
body:
to Lanfears Last Chance<br /><br />In terms of the anger, surprise and flickering- your interpretation is very logical in that specific scene. However, with all of the assumptions and ambiguity, I feel that my take makes sense given the context of the whole theory. Aran'gar could have faked it.<br /><br />As for Delana's location, Aran'gar might find that moot. Semirhage's position could be totally different from Anath's. The DotNM meeting is very secretive, even with the Seanchan. Then, Anath is the one that is at the meeting (there is no attempt to even show a false Tuon who is very short and recognizable; instead, Anath's character, who Semirhage masquerades as, comes by herself), and the damane and suldame that accompany her don't know who Rand is. I think that they were just told to follow Anath, and they went through a hole without knowing why. There's nothing there that says that they had arranged this with a whole bunch of notoriety. Aran'gar could have just taken the guise of Anath, and told a bunch of other Seanchan what to do. As for the timing, Halima is a secretary who doesn't have to answer to her boss. She can make a saidin Gateway anytime. The meeting was an event, not on on-going occupation.<br /><br />to Lord General Cauthon<br /><br />Thanks. My question to you is why you think Semirhage knows about the Seanchan attack. I thought that Aran'gar kept it to herself, and that Mesaana didn't know about it because of her attitude and disregard during the garden party. I thought Semirhage would have no reason to keep that from Mesaana if she knew. As to the unsheathing the sword, that's a good point. However, given the ambiguity of the saidin/saidar, and the fact that Cadsuane would probably assume that it was saidar, I think it possible, even plausible, that Aran'gar might have allowed the flicker to occur, while maintaining the MoM for Semirhage's likeness using saidin. Don't the FO know about the ter'angreals that are in the service of Rand's allies from the cleansing debacle? I don't mean to sound stubborn, but Aran'gar might have anticipated something like that right after Cadsuane makes a show of throwing her cloak back.<br /><br />to DomA<br /><br />The fireball could have been inverted. As for the saidin/saidar for the MoM, I state above that Aran'gar might have dropped one of her layers. <br /><br />As to the fact that none of the other Seanchan knew she could channel, this helps my theory out immensely. If she wanted to take out Rand, then she couldn't fight in any obvious way without proving she could channel and perhaps getting a weave thrown at her from her own people. If she meant to be taken captive, then why did she allow the other Seanchan to see the Gateway? Unless she could have had the others killed, then Rand could find out about the Gateway, and then the whole thing would reek of FO. This way, Aran'gar has the drop on Rand because Rand thinks he's figured things out, and so will be more relaxed, plus he won't expect saidin. Anath could have just blindfolded everyone. How hard would that have been?<br />


created: 2006-09-16 09:54:37
subject: <b>Why I feel Semi knows about the attack</b>
body:
We all agree Semi, Messy and Dem are in alliance. I feel Semi knows about this because during the garden party Messy makes multiple references to &quot;her&quot; plan. I interpret this to mean the plan of the alliance of Messy, Semi and Dem. Now, who among the Seanchan is a Darkfriend? Suroth. Suroth has been in service to Semirhage. Suroth knows of the attack. I bring to light a quote from memory by the Leader of the Return who had not yet taken control of the Forerunners. &quot;That plan must go forward...&quot; This is said directly to Suroth. I assume this to mean the attack on the WT. I also kind of think that this is the reason Raken will be instrumental against the WT. Anyway... this shows that Suroth knows of the attack on the WT, imho. I feel that she would tell Semi of any such attack, we just never saw it. The lack of response on Semi's part during the garden party is because this is all part of the plan of Semi, Dem and Messy. Why Dem as well? Mainly because he's part of the alliance as well, plus he is the main general for the shadow. I think, after reading the &quot;Dark One's War Plan&quot; theories that Dem will launch an attack on the WT after the Seanchan have damaged it greatly. It all ties together I think. Still, your theory is intriguing. I never thought twice about Aran'gar until my second reread of KoD, and yours is making me think about her a third time.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Egwene must die.<br />Rand Al'Thor will face her wrath...<br />And laugh in her face!</font><p></p>


created: 2006-09-16 10:02:13
subject: <b>Cadsuane ter'angreal</b>
body:
Exactly the reason I said that it is possible in my first response, i bore a hole. I brought that quote up mainly to show why I'm sticking with the idea of Semi being caught and not Aran'gar. Also, to whoever, I think DoMa, brought up the point of Semi/Aran wasn't holding the weave, she doesn't have to be to let one drop. A channeler can tie a weave and allow it to dissipate when he/she wants it to, to the exact second. Aran'gar, if it is Aran'gar, would have been able to plan the look of surprise on her face. If you don't believe me about the tied off weave go check RJs blog or QotW. I'm to lazy to find a quote atm.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Egwene must die.<br />Rand Al'Thor will face her wrath...<br />And laugh in her face!</font><p></p>


created: 2006-09-16 15:09:08
subject: <b>to Lord General Cauthon</b>
body:
Thanks for that insight about tied off weaves. I didn't know about the RJ blog statement. Your idea about Suroth knowing about the Seanchan attack- I feel that that was one of their ambitions, but could never be a reality (and that was a very early scene, before Rand stopped them cold with his asha'man and the Heroes). All of the logistics speak against the Seanchan attacking the WT. In my theory, I talk about the SAS calling the notion ridiculous. Aran'gar knows about it because of a true dream. Further, she knows about Egwene's role. Mesaana, on the other hand, thinks of returning Egwene to the rebels to confuse them. That stands against the whole concept of a Seanchan saving Egwene, which leads me to believe that none of the FO know about the Seanchan attack except for Aran'gar, and now probably Graendal. And they'll foment the attack because they already know it will happen.


created: 2006-09-16 18:51:52
subject: <b>Agree to Disagree</b>
body:
We're gonna have to agree to disagree on this subject of the Seanchan attack. I'm basically saying that if Suroth knows of the attack, Semi does. And Suroth is the leader of the Seanchen Forerunners which has yet to be supplanted by the Return. This makes Suroth the highest ranking Seanchan. Also if you recall the quote of Galgan in the KoD prologue &quot;That plan must go forward...&quot; to Suroth regarding which raken he would &quot;advise&quot; taking. I feel that this plan in the quote is the attack on the WT. I think I'll go reread the Garden Party though. I might see what your getting at. Anyone consider this possibility about the dream though? It may not come true. It was had AFTER the pattern began to unravel and involved no ta'veren. Each of these decreases the success rate of any true dream. Of course it will, but it does not HAVE to. Just playing devil's advocate with the last part. Anyway, I hope any new theories are as good a read and as original as i bore a hole's. Liked it alot, original and not really impossible imo. Good evidence, I just don't find it likely in my own mind. I personally always felt that Semi just was overpowered to quickly for her to do anything. She would only have known Rand's strength and possibly Nyneave's. For all she knows Logain is weak and/or gentled, Nyneave is only capable of using the Cheodan Kal and as you recall ter'angreal that unravel the power can be affected by indirect weaves, such as lightning or flames. Against someone who could care less if you live or die, its small protection. She knows little of Cadsuane's strength and its possible that Cyndane never revealed anything about the ter'angreal. We can be assured Moghedian did not or she would probably be dead or her cour'sourva crushed. Also, the others with Rand were basically random Asha'man 5 and 6. Considering how rare that men of near Rand strength were in the AoL she would have expected it to be a simple matter after she threw an inverted shield at full strength on Rand. Its not impossible that it was all part of Semi's plan... I just find it in the range of possibility of Norry being a DF. Oddly, I do believe that Norry is a DF. Reread the KoD chapters &quot;The New Follower&quot; and &quot;House on Full Moon Street&quot; and pay attention to the wording everyone used. Somehow Hark heard enough that he could know an EXACT number, names and physical descriptions... enough to make Elayne think she could overpower them and be certain who they were. When she gets their the number is magically multiplied by 3, after a wait of perhaps two hours from the qoute &quot;only two of us&quot;. Just a pet theory of mine... didn't get posted. Probably because it relies on pure KoD evidence. Anyway, i bore a hole, kudos to an original theory, fun read. Really liked it. Wow... I need to stop going off on tangents about unimportant matters.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Egwene must die.<br />Rand Al'Thor will face her wrath...<br />And laugh in her face!</font><p></p>


created: 2006-09-20 16:09:28
subject: <b>I must agree with everyone else</b>
body:
Aran'gar could not be posing as Semirhage for one very good reason.  You can remove her surprise and anger however you like but you have not explained even once why even IF it were possible that she was wearing TWO masks of mirrors why she would drop one so that she could be captured as Semirhage.  Even the people who think Semirhage wanted to get captured assume that she wanted to be captured as Tuon.<br /><br />What benefit would being Semirhage gain her exactly?  She is the most &quot;terrible&quot; of all Forsaken in many ways the only one who had reason to be punished long before turning to the Shadow.  You can't even claim that she needed a recognizable Forsaken face.  For one she doesn't know that Rand can or will recognize her.  Secondly since she escorted the suldam there as Tuon her &quot;second&quot; mask of mirrors could have been any forsaken male or female and since she is shielded now it can be granted that she would never be unshielded on purpose and therefore no element of surprise would suffice to explain her choice of Semirhage over say Demandred if you insist on it being a member of the trio.  How does the capture of &quot;Semirhage&quot; affect the trio unless the real Semirhage is actually missing?<br /><br />So to recap assuming she was wearing two masks of mirrors Aran'gar would have had to drop the first of her own accord.  Which without the action of Cadsuane or some other channeler would seem a little odd to begin with.  Doing this would mean that she was intent on being caught as Semirhage which would serve no purpose since the real Semirhage could prove that she was not captured.<br /><br />In fact being caught as a woman who wasn't able to channel would have been a significantly better plan.  As a darkfriend servant she could have SAID that Semirhage sent her and would have ample opportunity to destroy Rand by standing nearby as he was distracted by &quot;Semirhages&quot; attack.  That is of course assuming that no AS who remembered her was nearby.<br /><br />Also to counter some of your other points Suroth is in charge of the Rand and Tuon meeting there is no reason to think that whatever Forsaken you think she was working for didn't know about her attack on the Tower.  As for Messana and Aran'gar not knowing about it I think you should reconsider.  There are several theories indicating that the whole break in the Tower was to make them easier to attack by the Seanchan.  Messana for example has Egwene which threatens Aran'gars hold over the Salidar AS.  Messana doesn't say she want the rebellion to fail(since she probably orchestrated it) but she jibes Aran'gar that she should be able to keep it afloat on her own without Egwene which is in all honesty a cover for the fact that neither one of them could successfully risk the Shadow's hand being seen so openly.  They are all part of the same plan the destruction of the only organization designed to fight the Shadow otherwise know as the White Tower.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where did these Skimmers come from?  I mean if they didn't want to read the book they could have just Traveled to another author.  Why risk arriving at the wrong destination?  Why risk falling into darkness?</font><p></p>


created: 2006-09-20 19:40:43
subject: <b>to Onarishma</b>
body:
As to why she would want to look like Semirhage...<br />Well, Anath never tried to look like Tuon, though Tuon was described to Bashere for Rand as being very small. Then, I explain how the other Seanchan saw a Gateway. The first thing that will come to Rand's mind is one of the FO. This gets alleviated if Rand thinks it's Semirhage who channels saidar, not saidin. So, we have no Tuon to try to even attempt a real meeting. Then we have a clear set up for one of the FO being involved. I think that Aran'gar's ability to use saidin works perfectly in that arrangement.<br /><br />As for Rand not recognizing one of the FO, some of &quot;Semirhage's&quot; first words are to tell the others that Rand has LTT memories and uses them. As for why it wasn't Demandred, I talk about the connection to Semirhage, and how Aran'gar knows Semirhage is with the Seanchan. Then, you ask how the trio can be affected even without Semrihage missing- well, I talk about Graendal taking steps to start a war with the WT and the Seanchan, something that might make jumpy Mesaana act rashly.<br /><br />As for being captured as a woman who can't channel, that doesn't work if Rand suspects a FO from the fact that the Seanchan saw a Gateway. He would test them all. Aran'gar gets off because Rand thinks that he's one step ahead. We've all wondered what Semirhage could accomplish by being captured. What could she have been thinking doing something kinda foolish. Aran'gar makes more sense because of saidin.<br /><br />As for knowledge of the Seanchan attack- any of Suroth's plans to attack it are null because they are too far away. KoD, prologue says that they are in Amadicia, getting Altara, but won't move on Illian. They are so far away that they would need a Gateway, not to'raken. Then, with Suroth's comment to Galgan about another plan, there's no way she would mention a DF attack (the only way the Seanchan could reach the WT is through a Gateway, which means FO intervention. Even if Galgan is a DF too, I don't believe everyone in the room is, so Suroth would never mention such a plan out loud in a room of high and low alike). Then, the garden party has Mesaana considering returning Egwene to the rebels. This clearly indicates that she doesn't know about Egwene's dream of being RESCUED by a Seanchan. Further, if the trio did have a plan for the Seanchan attacking the WT, such things as returning Egwene run contrary to the true dream, and therefore will come to naught. So, I don't think that Semirhage knows about the plan because Suroth's plan couldn't be said in a full room if it involved FO aid. Then, Mesaana shows that she clearly doesn't know about the dream, and her plan would get negated by the Pattern weaving the true dream of Egwene.


created: 2006-09-29 17:39:38
subject: <b>some more</b>
body:
<font size="-1"><b>As to why she would want to look like Semirhage...<br />Well, Anath never tried to look like Tuon, though Tuon was described to Bashere for Rand as being very small. Then, I explain how the other Seanchan saw a Gateway. The first thing that will come to Rand's mind is one of the FO. This gets alleviated if Rand thinks it's Semirhage who channels saidar, not saidin. So, we have no Tuon to try to even attempt a real meeting. Then we have a clear set up for one of the FO being involved. I think that Aran'gar's ability to use saidin works perfectly in that arrangement.</b></font><br /><br />I don't think your answers were good enough.  If Aran'gar was trying to frame Semirhage which is the only reason for her to perform this double mask of mirror trick then the use of a Gateway would have been a completely acceptable ruse without &quot;Semirhage's&quot; actual presence.  Much like the sul'dam did not see who had made the Gateway so too Rand and Co. could have been convinced without Semirhages actual prescence.<br /><br />Her channeling of saidar or saidin is also irrelavant since the only way to test that is to free her from her shield which would never be done on purpose.  After all equipped with two masks of mirrors Aran'gar could truly become an unrecognizable woman who couldn't channel who was sent by Semirhage.  All she would have had to do is drop the first mask of mirrors and not channel anymore.<br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>As for Rand not recognizing one of the FO, some of &quot;Semirhage's&quot; first words are to tell the others that Rand has LTT memories and uses them. As for why it wasn't Demandred, I talk about the connection to Semirhage, and how Aran'gar knows Semirhage is with the Seanchan. Then, you ask how the trio can be affected even without Semrihage missing- well, I talk about Graendal taking steps to start a war with the WT and the Seanchan, something that might make jumpy Mesaana act rashly.</b></font><br /><br />Semirhage responded to Rand's exclaimation. She responded to his recognition of herself.  Without his words her diagnosis would have been completly out of place and unprovable.<br /><br />As for using Semirhage versus Demandred knowing who was with the Seanchan is irrelavant.  The only reason to use any of them is to frame one or the other and being captured would ruin any chance of the frame being successsful.  After all Rand isn't the one who knows that Semirhage is with the Seanchan only the trio at least should know that and probably the rest of the Forsaken.<br /><br />If the trio is affected by the actions of Graendal then masquerading as Semirhage has no purpose.  Masquerading as Semirahge is only useful if it forces Rand to intterupt the trio's plans. If the trio knows Semirhage is not actually with Rand then they will not turn on one another.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b>As for being captured as a woman who can't channel, that doesn't work if Rand suspects a FO from the fact that the Seanchan saw a Gateway. He would test them all. Aran'gar gets off because Rand thinks that he's one step ahead. We've all wondered what Semirhage could accomplish by being captured. What could she have been thinking doing something kinda foolish. Aran'gar makes more sense because of saidin.</b></font><br /><br />Test them all how?  As I explained above &quot;Semirhage&quot; sent us would work just as well.<br /><br />What would Rand do?  Dispell all masks of mirrors.  Dispel all ability hiding weaves.  If Semirhage was walking around feeling like a non-channelers which she would feel like if she was Aran'gar and the woman could not sense her ability don't you think they would find it strange that they could not cut that weave and reveal her strength if for no other reason than to decide how many women would be needed to hold her<br /><br /><font size="-1"><b> As for knowledge of the Seanchan attack- any of Suroth's plans to attack it are null because they are too far away. KoD, prologue says that they are in Amadicia, getting Altara, but won't move on Illian. They are so far away that they would need a Gateway, not to'raken. Then, with Suroth's comment to Galgan about another plan, there's no way she would mention a DF attack (the only way the Seanchan could reach the WT is through a Gateway, which means FO intervention. Even if Galgan is a DF too, I don't believe everyone in the room is, so Suroth would never mention such a plan out loud in a room of high and low alike). Then, the garden party has Mesaana considering returning Egwene to the rebels. This clearly indicates that she doesn't know about Egwene's dream of being RESCUED by a Seanchan. Further, if the trio did have a plan for the Seanchan attacking the WT, such things as returning Egwene run contrary to the true dream, and therefore will come to naught. So, I don't think that Semirhage knows about the plan because Suroth's plan couldn't be said in a full room if it involved FO aid. Then, Mesaana shows that she clearly doesn't know about the dream, and her plan would get negated by the Pattern weaving the true dream of Egwene.</b></font><br /><br />The Seanchan are clearly going to attack the Tower its been predicted in several ways at several times.  Just because you can't figure out how they are going to do it doesn't mean they can't.  The Seanchan's preoccupation with their forkroot supply and the &quot;plan&quot; is clearly becauase they are going to attack the Tower.<br /><br />And finally the point is that the Forsaken want their factions to be fighting that would be the essence of sowing chaos.  Returning Egwene would keep one faction strong enough to fight and give the Seanchan two fronts to fight against three if you count Graendal's games in Arad Domon.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where did these Skimmers come from?  I mean if they didn't want to read the book they could have just Traveled to another author.  Why risk arriving at the wrong destination?  Why risk falling into darkness?</font><p></p>


created: 2006-10-02 06:11:41
subject: <b>Nice idea</b>
body:
You covered lots of loopholes with quotes and have done a good job trying to explain descrepancies as well as answer questions here at the BB. <br /><br />I do have a couple questions of my own though. How long are you suggesting that Halima has been working on this plan? (Did you imply she just thought of it at the Garden Party when she &quot;allied&quot; with Graendal?) For all appearances, she seems to have spent a lot of her time with the rebels, and to worm her way into Ebou Dar and ally with Suroth would have to take some time and investigation. <br /><br />You also seem to conclude that Halima knows Anath and Tuon both, and that she knew Semirhage has been portraying Anath in Ebou Dar without any real explanation. I don't recall you saying how she uncovered this secret identity of Semi's, and it becomes crucial to your theory unless you're suggesting Halima has been Anath all along. That isn't possible because we know Anath appeared and took over the job of Tuon's Soe'feia two years ago, and that was long before Aran'gar was resurrected in LoC.<br /><br />Plus, this conclusion is even further clouded with doubt because Halima only <i>wonders</i> about Mesaana possibly being in the Tower at the Garden Party. (She's guessing, and doesn't know for sure. OTOH, you are saying that Halima knew full-well where Semi is and who she is portraying.)<br /><br />Another thing that bothers me are the sad bracelets themselves. The last we knew, was that Suroth had confiscated them. That there is more than one pair now, pretty much says that someone copied the original. None of the Forsaken have shown the ability to make angreal, san'greal or ter'angreal, else they wouldn't have been searching so hard for them for so long. It's pretty easy to conclude that Seanchan damane made the copies, since they have people skilled in making the a'dam for the channelers they find. <br /><br />What I guess I'm saying is that this would involve cooperation from both Suroth, to get the original set, and access to Seanchan damane to produce the copies. I suppose Suroth could supply the damane, but would she have held onto the sad bracelets or turned them over to Semirhage at the first opportunity? <br /><br />Plus, how would Halima even know about the sad bracelets in the first place unless she had been hanging out with Suroth in Ebou Dar? As far as I recall, Mesaana was the one that sent Liandrin searching for them, and Moghedien knew where they were too. I can see Mesaana possibly sharing this info with Semi, but not Halima.<br /><br />I'm going to disagree with the theory on the basis of those questions alone. However I'm going to give it a thumbs up because it was a well-done theory with an original take on this mysterious Forsaken plot. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2006-10-02 22:17:50
subject: <b>responses to those who don't mind my rambling</b>
body:
to Onarishma<br /><br />First off, do you believe that Semirhage meant to be captured? If so, then one of the main points of all of the theories that say she meant to be captured state that she meant to be captured as herself. Why would Semirhage want to be captured as herself? Well, she starts out by making everyone around realize that Rand is quite mad, hearing a dead man in his head. So, the fact that Semirhage meant to be captured as herself means that revealing one of the FO that knows about Rand's infirmities is essential to the plan. That's one big point to the whole reason for impersonating Semirhage instead of just acting like Anath the whole time. Unless you don't think that Semirhage meant to be captured, then you see the reason why Aran'gar had to pose as one of the FO. Why not keep in charater with taking down the alliance, and also use a FO that would know about Rand's profile. This helps the whole plan of alienating Rand in his own camp. The purpose is not so much of a frame as it is to isolate Rand. This ploy is understood whether you believe it's Semirhage or Aran'gar.<br /><br />As for the testing of the second MoM, I assume that Rand would have some means of breaking a weave with his LTT tricks. With all of the ter'angreals, I'm sure they can interrupt a tied off web. However, since Rand and co. think that they've figured this one out, they won't bother to check any further.<br /><br />Concerning the Seanchan plot to attack the WT, the &quot;plan&quot; was spoken aloud by Suroth in a room to Galgan with lots of others, high and low alike. This plan has DF overtones given the impossibility of it without FO intervention, since the Seanchan position on the map is too far. Again, they cannot use to'raken to get across Andor, and they cannot Travel. I don't believe that the plan stated by Suroth means the WT. There's no way that everyone in a random room is a DF. And Jordan says that the bat Egwene saw was really a bat. Finally, everyone says that the Seanchan can't Travel. I see this as irony for the Gateway that will open up with Seanchan pouring into Tar Valon. A Gateway made by Graendal.<br /><br />Lastly, on the matter of FO in-fighting. Graendal's attack on the WT will get her the glory. Mesaana, already jumpy and moody, will see her hopes of becoming nae'blis go up in smoke as &quot;Semirhage&quot; is trying to enact her own schemes. Once one of the FO thinks that the alliance is up, they will not think. It's over at that point, and whoever strikes decisively wins.<br /><br />to LitN<br /><br />I think that Aran'gar thought up the plan as soon as she knew about Egwene's true dream. That's a spicy meatball! The Seanchan shaking the WT to its foundations. It's too big to sit on without any real plans.<br /><br />As for how Aran'gar knows who Semirhage is, well, I think it possible she knew Semirhage was with the Seanchan because of reverse logic- WT to Seanchan association and then the Trio alliance. However, I also state that Aran'gar had the connection to Semirhage through Cabriana Mecandes- she might know she was with the Seanchan. From there, it would be a simple matter of going to the Seanchan and finding out that Suroth is a high up DF. Then, Aran'gar could go in front of Suroth and ask who has died recently or come into power. We have the thoughts of the rebel asha'man state they they got conflicting orders from the FO, and some were told not to say anything even to other FO. Aran'gar could have figured it out, and then posed as Anath on secretive missions to Suroth. And given the way that Suroth met in meetings with Bashere where Bashere was not to talk to any other Seanchan, and all of the servants were mutes makes me think it possible that another of the FO might be involved. Maybe Suroth even knew it was another FO. However, she would still be helpless unless another FO told her specifically not do something (I can't remember, but I think something along those lines concerned Mesaana). Also, the way that none of the damane even knew who Rand was means that none of them were primed for an attack. It looked like a haphazard party set up in a hurry- perhaps because Aran'gar just got run out of the rebel camp.<br /><br />Finally, I would like to point out that the remaining FO (at least those not named nae'blis or under his control) all have human counterparts. Known counterparts. Mesaana has Alviarin. Demandred was in contact with those rogue asha'man. Aran'gar had Delana. Graendal is in contact with the Wolf who got one of her notes- and I thought there was some man that came to her household who wasn't under compulsion. As for Semirhage, she should have Suroth; however, to my recollection, there is nothing that says they have even met, corresponded, or heard of one another. We just don't know what Suroth thinks about the FO, or what her orders could be. We all just assume that Semirhage has been giving these orders for sad bracelets, but we don't know if any of this is Semirhage's work or not. Granted, it's all inconclusive, but I find it interesting that we don't officially know if Suroth even knows who Anath is.<br /><br />Anyway, thanks to everyone who reads and/or writes.


created: 2006-10-06 09:40:54
subject: <b>Still unconvinced</b>
body:
1. Isolating Rand is not a viable option. Without Rand putting his own foot in his mouth she could prove nothing more than Cadsuane did when she asked Rand if he was hearing voices.  Her oppourtunity came because Rand recognized her.  How could she possibly know that Rand suffered from a &quot;real&quot; voice or that he would recognize her.  The only person who could possibly know that beforehand is Moridin or in a strech Cyndane.  I don't think Semirhage wanted to be captured at all but even if she did the &quot;Rand has a special ailment&quot; was a windfall or the direct involvement of Moridin.<br /><br />2.  I'm not talking about the second MOM.  I'm talking about Semirhages mysteriously resistant masked channeling ability.  If she were Halima like any man no one would be able to sense her ability.  They would not allow Semirhage to walk around hiding her ability.<br /><br />3.  A major Seanchan objective is to subdue the White Tower.  After reading the scene in KOD I've decided that there was no reference to the White Tower, however they clearly are going to attack.  The information provided in that chapter does not preclude the movement of troop unmentioned.  The Seanchan are perfectly capable of coming over the mountains of Mist and across the Caralain grass.  No one lives there to disrupt them so they could indeed fly all the way to TV without detection much like the Borderland rulers did.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where did these Skimmers come from?  I mean if they didn't want to read the book they could have just Traveled to another author.  Why risk arriving at the wrong destination?  Why risk falling into darkness?</font><p></p>


created: 2006-10-07 21:47:20
subject: <b>New Information...</b>
body:
KoD, hardcover, p. 661, we have a PoV from Elayne where she thinks about Rand's positions. Note: This is after Rand got hurt, since Elayne thinks about how she felt a sharp amount of pain from Rand. ie: his hand.<br />&quot;And why was he Traveling so often? One day, he was far to the southeast, the next to the northwest and even more distant, the day after that somewhere else.&quot; Now, Elayne is in Caemlyn. Distant and southeast of that would be Altara, where Rand had his encounter with Anath. Then, he is supposed to be northwest of Caemlyn and even more distant. This would be Arad Doman, where Graendal is situated. Why would Semirhage take Rand straight to where Graendal is? One could speculate that Semirhage is trying to rout the other FO given her plight. Or, one might see that Aran'gar and Graendal are allied; Aran'gar has been recently captured and remains duplicitous, and has now taken a careless DR into the lair of her ally. Rand continues to move after this, perhaps at the whim of FO plots yet to be seen. I think that this is fairly indicative of some plot that we can reason out. Rand going straight into Graendal's lair, and Graendal has recently made an alliance with Aran'gar, who I believe is posing as Semirhage. I think it helps out my original theory, and perhaps helps out the role that I originally laid out for Graendal after Aran'gar got captured.


created: 2006-10-08 11:31:50
subject: <b>to Onarishma...</b>
body:
I appreciate your patience, and will try to make it worthwhile.<br /><br />1- I won't try to sell you on Semirhage's Game. If you don't buy it at this point, then you've got some strong tenets for your opinions, and my ammo on the subject is pretty much spent. I will say that one of the first things that Semirhage states is that Lanfear remarked on the subject of LTT in Rand's head. So &quot;Semirhage&quot; could know from that. Then, the purpose of being specifically Semirhage comes from the fact that she is so feared. If acting as one of the FO to isolate Rand is the tactic, then Aran'gar would have to be a female FO, so that Rand won't kill her outright. Also, Aran'gar must be a remaining FO so that LTT can recongnize them. Then, Aran'gar must be a forceful FO, so that Rand can't help but open his LTT mouth in a REACTION. Semirhage's presence is so powerful that Rand even thinks back to some of his memories concerning her during the WoP. The only other FO candidate that fits the bill is Mesaana, and her presence might not have evoked a response from Rand. She's not as feared, IMO. There might even need to be a FO that fits the description of what Semirhage has done as Anath, should the damane be captured and questioned.<br /><br />2-I apologize for not seeing what you meant here earlier. I think I do now. I believe that the glow a female channeler sees/feels around another channeler is what you are asking about. Well, I went back to the FAQ to research, and found that some of the requisites there are based on the fact that Semirhage in that scene is Semirhage. My take must necessarily discard that notion, since Aran'gar channels saidin. You have been patient with this so far. I would like to take my quote from Nynaeve about someone channeling that she couldn't see, and her ter'angreal not distinguishing between saidin and saidar and move a little further.<br /><br />Since there is the comment about the ter'angreal not distinguishing between saidin and saidar, we must assume that Nynaeve cannot conclude that it is a woman based on seeing a glow. Therefore, we must think that at least masking the ability hides the glow. I would like to add that shielding does the same. I cannot find a single instance in which the subject has been conclusively explained, but would like to point out Cadsuane's thoughts later in that chapter. After &quot;Semirhage&quot; has been shielded and captured, and Rand has named her Semirhage of the FO notoriety, we have Cadsuane asking:<br /><br />&quot;How CAN you be sure?&quot; Cadsuane demanded. Those golden moons and stars, birds and fishes, swung as she moved her piercing gaze Rand to Semirhage and back.<br />-KoD, hardcover, p.592<br /><br />From this, I would say that we have very strong evidence that says that not only masking the ability stops the glow, but also shielding. Since RJ mentions the ter'angreal, and the fact that Cadsuane has a piercing gaze, she is trying every one of her tricks to find out who this channeler is. However, the fact that 'can' is in italics (sorry, bad keyboard) means that Cadsuane, for the life of her, cannot know if this woman is Semirhage, a very powerful female FO channeler that she should be able to sense as extremely strong in the power. Cadsuane doesn't know, so I think that Aran'gar has a very good case in this instance. No ter'angreal of channeler can be sure that it is indeed Semirhage.<br /><br />(On a sidenote, I would like to add that in the section where &quot;Semirhage&quot; mentions Lanfear's name in conjunction with Rand having LTT memories, &quot;Semirhag&quot; also says that she didn't know much of such things, and that Graendal could tell them more. Given this statement, KoD, p. 592, and my above post about Rand's jumping places to Arad Doman, I think that there is a very good case for the Graendal-Aran'gar alliance as being involved in this matter.<br /><br />3-On the matter of the Seanchan, I just think that my take is correct. I also believe that the Seanchan want to take the WT, but there is no strong plan that we know of. The only thing that I see is the fact that Aran'gar should know about the attack, and that FO intervention is so easy. Plus, Aran'gar's new teammate, Graendal, just happens to be next to the Seanchan. Call me crazy, but I see a pattern here.


created: 2006-10-11 02:50:57
subject: <b>Aran'gar is not that intelligent</b>
body:
Do you really think that the FO who is known for temper and rashness is intelligent enough to correctly interpret Rand's one sentence before a battle scene and immediately identify it with some obscure mental illness that just happens to be totally correct? Semi's diagnosis sounds like something she is qualified to judge, but like a good Healer, she will defer to someone else who has more knowledge in a specific area. Aran'gar would not have known about something like this specific form of mental illness that Semi describes, she would have had to make it up in the spot. Not very easy in those particular circumstances unless she had planned iit all in advance. And why plan it in advance on the off-chance that rand might do something stupid like reveal her Semirhage appearance -(which Cynddane was shocked to learn was possible in WH) and blurt it out to the whole world?<br />The whole statement was just too consistent with Semi's level of skill, not Aran'gar's.


created: 2006-10-12 11:33:17
subject: <b>to beca</b>
body:
Granted, Aran'gar may not have been the best planner, but her ally is Graendal. And whomever Semirhage may be, they certainly said that Graendal knew more on the subject. Maybe the subtle elements are hers.


created: 2006-10-12 19:13:47
subject: <b>Granted</b>
body:
I admit this possibility had not occured to me, but it does imply they had planned the comment in advance. That means if you are right, that Graendal was half expecting Rand to be suffering this extremely rare form of madness.  Given that Graendal had no experience with the madness of the Taint, can you explain why she would anticipate this?<br />Rand's LTT comments to Lanfear were no more than words any idiot could have worked out would upset her, and even if they set Graendal thinking in that direction, her own POV shows she is unsure if Rand is Rand or LTT himself,  so did Graendal plant those words in Aran'gar's mouth on the tiny chance he would put his foot in it like he did, or for some other reason?<br />While your reasoning makes the Aran'gar-Graendal case possible, I still don't think it likely.


created: 2006-10-13 14:53:52
subject: <b>whether Semirhage or Aran'gar...</b>
body:
Most people believe that the game was to be captured as Semirhage. The fact of the matter is that the sad bracelets were laid out as bait, and the other damane saw a Gateway. Most believe that Rand was supposed to find out that it was Semirhage. The reason is that Rand was supposed to be found out as a madman, with LTT in his head. Sure it worked out that way in the book in a very convenient manner; but is it too much to say that &quot;Semirhage&quot; might not be able to find a way to expose Rand's madness at some other time? Rand does some odd things (the deathgates and arrows of fire) which confuse those around him. Semirhage could easily take any opportunity to state what makes a lot of sense to those who find Rand's behavior strange. The reason why everyone immediately accepts it is because it makes so much sense. Semirhage need only plant a few seeds and Rand's madness will become an issue. At some later time, &quot;Semirhage&quot; might even note how hard it is for Rand to seize the source without getting sick. &quot;Semirhage&quot; might not be counting on an immediate slip of the tongue, but only on the knowledge that Rand is in fact mad with LTT occasionally coming out.


created: 2006-11-02 18:47:08
subject: <b>Just a couple of quotes</b>
body:
&quot;The small dark woman began walking towards them slowly,&quot; <br />This fits Tuon's apperance.<br />&quot;No more than ten paces away, she... flickered....she was taller than most men, garbed all in black, surprise on her face, and though she still wore the veil, her head was covered with short-cut wavy black hair.&quot; <br />This is Semirage's apperance.<br />&quot;He recognised that face, though he had never seen it before. Lews Therin had, and that was enough.&quot; <br />This confirms that under this MoM LTT recognised Semi's face.<br />Quick fight scene...<br />&quot; &quot;Who is the tall woman? They didn't try passing her off as the Daughter of the Nine Moons, did they? Not after telling me she was a little thing.&quot;....<br />&quot;She's Anath Dorje, not... not what you called her.&quot;<br />The sul'dam recognised Anath Dorje, the High Lady's Truthspeaker, when she looked at Semi's face just as Morgase would have recognised Gaebril when she saw Rahvin. Anath Dorje was the name she was using, not a separate face. The same sul'dam later confirms this again when she says,<br />&quot;We thought she was the High Lady. [under her disguise]&quot;..&quot;We thought we were being honored. She took us to a room in the Tarasin Palace where there was a ... a hole in the air, and we steped through to this place. I swear it on my eyes! We thought she was the High Lady.&quot;<br /><br />All this proves is that Anath Dorj and Semi were not separate people, not that your theory is wrong, or that Aran'gar was not under another layer of MoM, but it is the basis of some parts of your theory. <br /><br />Personally, I don't believe that Semi was intending to be captured, but she was calm enough to take advantage of the situation, unlike Aran'gar who would not have reacted calmly. Personally, I think Cadsuane's ter'angreal took her by surprise and she was caught too quickly to put her plan into action. But as I have no proof for this, it is a RAFO.


created: 2007-06-23 15:38:26
subject: <b>slight problem</b>
body:
if it wasnt semi, just halima in disguise nyneave and cadsuane would have known about it becasuse of the ter'angreal. <br /><br />PLUS. cadsuane disrupts the weavings using her ter'angreal, if she did this aran'gar would apear as herself not as another disguise. rand identified her as semi, they werent taking the womans word for it. if aran'gar suddenly appeared rand would not have recognised her.<br /><br />even someone as controlled as semi could be taken be suprise. she suddenly finds her careful plans ruined in one stroke, she knows she has no time to reun because rand and his clan would already have the source in them so she uses a small weave she can make quickly hoping to kill rand and cause enough chaos to allow her to escape. it must have been a small weave, we have seen proper fire balls, they dont burn off a hand they rip the whole arm off and keep going. if it had been a proper weave not a quick one rand would have died.<br /><br />aran'gar is not noted for her calmness, she is hot headed and loses her temper at the drop of a hat. do you think if she had been bound, shielded and had a dagger sticking out of her shoulder she would be calm and self possessed? no. she would be in a fury of rage even if she planned to be captured someone sticking a knife in you is not the best start to your day.


created: 2009-06-02 20:11:36
subject: <b>cadsuanes ornaments</b>
body:
apart from the fact semi was shielded cadsuanes ornaments interefere with saidin aswell as saidar so it could not have been anyone else other than semi


created: 2006-10-23 15:54:49
subject: <b>LMAO</b>
body:
HAHA, I loved that! Great job, I laughed till I cryed. Keep posting.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Who Dares, Wins.</font><p></p>


created: 2006-10-23 17:16:56
subject: <b>It's true!! It's true!!</b>
body:
Because, in Soul of the Fire (yeah I read Goodkind) Zedd, who is actually Gandalf, who is actually Moiraine, tells Richard that the chicken is a Lurk. And everyone knows a Lurk is a mydr-Fade!<br /><br /><br /><br /><br />That is all.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2006-10-23 20:01:40
subject: <b>I agree.</b>
body:
It has to be, there is to many coincidences for it to be anything else. <br /><br />Gher, didn't Zedd later say that he made up the whole Lurk thing.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Poets have been mysteriously silent on the subject of cheese.&quot;     -G. K. Chesterton<br /> <br />My naked walrus is on fire. <img src="images/personalsmilies/41668.gif" /><br /><br />TEVT: We are back in business! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/w00t.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2006-10-24 09:38:50
subject: <b>Sweet Zombie Jesus on a Pogo stick, It's True!</b>
body:
So what if Zedd made it up? It's still true! Fact I tell you! Mwahhhaahhaahahaha! TRUE!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;What do you mean, why's it got to be built?&quot; he said. &quot;It's a bypass. You've got to build bypasses.&quot; - Mr Prosser, head builder</font><p></p>


created: 2006-10-24 14:22:24
subject: <b>Erhermmm.....</b>
body:
Sorry about the ranting.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> Anyways, it's true<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/oh2.gif" border="0" />! There are too many parralells! Chicken's can't see with their heads cut off, and neither can mrydraal. Coincidence? I think not!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;What do you mean, why's it got to be built?&quot; he said. &quot;It's a bypass. You've got to build bypasses.&quot; - Mr Prosser, head builder</font><p></p>


created: 2006-10-24 17:51:38
subject: <b>Stupid Hobo...</b>
body:
Trix are for kids. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />But Zedd didn't make it up, he just was trying to explain to Adie and she wouldn't understand about Fades.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2006-10-24 18:53:47
subject: <b>This has to be the funniest theory I've seen</b>
body:
Headless chickens, conspiracy theories, and WoT.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">A jury is a group of twelve people chosen to see who has a better lawyer. -Douglas Adams<br /><br />Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent<br /><br />Go Duke!</font><p></p>


created: 2006-10-24 19:34:39
subject: <b>Nice effort</b>
body:
but i wouldn't call this ur best stuff <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Fortune rides like the sun on high<br />with the fox that makes the ravens fly.<br />Luck his soul, the lightning his eye,<br />He snatches the moons from out the sky.&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2006-10-25 08:21:36
subject: <b>Nice one</b>
body:
I remember Creepy Crawlies<br /><br />I thought Rocky chased the chicken in Rocky II?<br /> <br />Loved the story about Mike.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">May you be successful  in all your projects.<br /><br />I am a pastafarion.  The Flying Spaghetti Monster created the universe, and no one in Kansas can prove me wrong.<br /><br />http://www.vengaza.org</font><p></p>


created: 2006-10-25 11:44:42
subject: <b>Infamy !!!!</b>
body:
*whistles innocently*<br /><br />Hey, look over there, isn't that Demandred!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Need a book to read - check out my blog for ideas.</font><p><a href="http://nethspace.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">Neth Space</a></p><p></p>


created: 2006-10-29 14:28:18
subject: <b>One problem...</b>
body:
&#8220;Around the humans Trollocs fell writhing to the ground, tearing at their hair, clawing their own faces. All of the Trollocs. Biting at the ground, snapping at nothing, howling, howling, howling.<br />Then Rand saw the Myrddraal. Still upright in the saddle of its madly dancing horse, black sword still flailing, it had no head.&quot;It won't die until nightfall,&quot; Thom had to shout, between heavy breaths, over the unrelenting screams. &quot;Not completely. That is what I've heard, anyway.&quot; tEotW chapter 18<br /><br />Thom said that the Myrddraal would die at sunset. Mike the chicken obviously didn't. Of course, this could be because of how Mike was beheaded vs. the Myrdraal's debodyment. Or maybe it's because Myrddraal blood doesn't clot. We've never had any evidence of a Myrddraal recovering from a wound. Maybe Myrddraal are all bleeders(a genetic disease which means that your blood has trouble clotting and you can die of blood loss pretty quickly) and since Myrddraal are sort of a genetic disease, that might make sense. That could be why Myrddraal die at sunset, while chickens, with the necessary amount of luck, live a full and sort of healthy life...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Madness waits for some. It creeps up on others.&quot;<br />I was born with it...</font><p></p>


created: 2006-10-29 16:29:54
subject: <b>hmm...</b>
body:
But on the other hand, it could just be that Mike was the superchicken, and ordinary chickens and myrddraal live only a short period of time without heads before being declared kaput. Thus, I think we can deduce that Shaidar Haran, the supermyrddraal, may well be beheaded in aMoL, and will live for a long while afterwards, running around much like a chicken with its head cut off.


created: 2006-10-29 18:01:27
subject: <b>ROFL</b>
body:
That is amazing!  I never would have thought of that!  Keep posting!  I laughed so hard I got a stomach ache and fell out of my rolling computer chair!


created: 2006-11-04 14:42:42
subject: <b>Nice to know I am not the only Heinlein fan on here</b>
body:
or am I wrong about the source of MIke the Chicken<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">---from the island of dr.bong---<br />---the tintinabulations are only temporary---</font><p></p>


created: 2006-11-06 13:50:48
subject: <b>Keep at it</b>
body:
Loved the theory man. Laughed till i cried.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">YodasFather<br /><br />There are only 10 types of people in the world - those who understand binary, and those who don't.</font><p></p>


created: 2006-11-06 16:19:05
subject: <b>Bong...</b>
body:
I don't know about Heiny, but I'd read about Mike the Chicken tons of places, and when I started thinking about how long it lived, it reminded me about Fades living til sunset even after being beheaded...and then I noticed our webmaster was named Mike.<br /><br />The final straw was when I found out Manok meant Chicken in the Phillippines.<br /><br />I just had to see this theory worked out and developed, and that's where LitN came to my aid. Like a year ago. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font color="blue"><b>Arok Manok</b></font><font color="green"> - Ex-admin Extraordinaire</font><br />Future Post-Apocalypse Warlord<br /><br /><img src="images/personalsmilies/2241.gif" /><br /><br />I'd rather be throwing a frisbee right now</font><p></p>


created: 2006-11-06 18:41:22
subject: <b>Sorry it took so long Arok....</b>
body:
um... I was sick? (However, I do keep my promises. Eventually.)<br /><br />Anyway, glad to see so many liked it or at least got a smile or chuckle out of it.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2006-11-09 16:59:02
subject: <b>The last piece...</b>
body:
You forgot to mention that Galina is a BA sister, furthering the link between the DO and chickens!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Egwene must die.<br />Rand Al'Thor will face her wrath...<br />And laugh in her face!</font><p></p>


created: 2006-11-14 08:23:31
subject: <b>Great theory! Thanks John and Arok!</b>
body:
But what happened to Mike the chicken? Did he eventually end up as Sunday fricassee? Or maybe at 8 lbs a nice roaster? <br /><br />NaCl(after all that work to fatten him up I hope he tasted good!)H2O <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Any comments on my photos appreciated</font><p><a href="http://saltwater.smugmug.com/" target="_blank">My photos, a work in progress</a></p><p></p>


created: 2008-02-16 21:43:04
subject: <b>Woah...</b>
body:
That means I ate a servant of the DO for dinner! Awesome!!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Masria Sedai of the Brown Ajah<br />The Zaftig Cat Girl<br /><br />http://serpentinepoet.proboards107.com/index.cgi</font><p></p>


created: 2008-07-20 10:26:26
subject: <b>What the ****!</b>
body:
There is no way to deny this theory now ... i absolutely cannot believe that RJ thought of this, but its f***ing hilarious !


created: 2008-09-15 02:03:50
subject: <b>Sooo Funny!</b>
body:
I enjoy reading this; again and again. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />


created: 2006-11-07 16:50:10
subject: <b>I voted &quot;yes&quot;, but ...</b>
body:
my understanding is, the Blight retreated, and Shai'tan's grip on Winter was lost, AFTER the conflict at the end of tEotW was decided.  That is, the Shadow lost, and the DO's power was (temporarily at least) reduced (most noticeably in the vacinity of where the defeat took place).  Therefore, I don't think those two things had anything to do with Shai'tan focusing his energy/power on other things (like breaking a Seal).<br /><br />However, I do agree that Shai'tan was almost certainly focusing his energy/power on breaking a Seal well before events in the EotW culminated.  As you said, Aginor and Balthamel were both free before any &quot;conflict&quot; took place.  So, clearly the Seal had broken (or at least weakened sufficiently) to free them.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Rise and fall, turn the Wheel,<br />'cause all life is<br />Is really just a circle.&quot;<br /><br />-BHT&amp;tM</font><p></p>


created: 2006-11-07 18:51:53
subject: <b>Great idea, along with the implications of Fel's letter, it makes a lot clear.</b>
body:
For all we know, that was exclusively applied to Ishamael.  And by all we hear, the recession of the Blight in EotW is the first such since the end of the Breaking.  By all other accounts, the Blight has advanced, at varying rates, but there has never been any mention of advancement on the part of the good guys.  This suggests, IMO, that the cyclical issue is purely Ishamael's.  For the rest, the Dark One's power has been steadily growing for 3,000 years, and the Trolloc incursions every thousand years are a factor of population growth (since they don't make strategic retreats, one assumes the Trolloc Wars ended with them almost all being killed, with stragglers fleeing back to the Blight to save their own butts).  Humanity's gradual loss of order and belief and unity and whatnot, as Herid Fel's last writing imply, has weakened the Seals gradually over the last three thousand years, to the point where the Dark One could finally exert the influence to pop the first Seal.<br /><br />As for where this theory is concerned, it does not change in the slightest.  If my supposition is correct, it can still account for the Dark One's budgeting his available direct influence to attack the Seals.  Also, IIRC, the drought and the extreme quiet of the Blight are noticed around the same time (both in tFoH), which might doubly support this theory, as the Dark One was withdrawing his power from the Blight to use on the weather.  He was just getting started, which was why signs of drought and unnaturally prolonged summer were in evidence upon the emergence of the main group of characters from the Aiel Waste.  The &quot;just getting started&quot; aspect also explains why there was enough water still in the air for Rand &amp; co. to make the rainstorm at the battle for Cairhien. That probably hastened the full drought, as it drained away what moisture the Dark One had not removed from the atmosphere.  In any event, it makes sense that the withdrawing and quiet of the Blight are due to the Dark One pulling back to save his power for other efforts.  Urging the Blight forward over three millenia helped the cause by its negative effects on the overall human society, which helped increase the wearing down of the Seals, which increased the power available, but now, with humanity at its lowest point so far, he had power to finally pop a Seal itself, and to really start kicking the doors.  The chaos and warfare spread by the Seanchan, with the horror and such that radiated from Falme would have been enough to pop the next two, rather than any defeat of Ishamael or whatnot.  Then at Tear, a huge step forward is taken by humanity, with the &quot;proof&quot; of Rand's &quot;Dragonity&quot; so no Seal broke.  Whoever was aware of Rand drawing Callandor and its implications would have seen it as a sign of hope rather than dispair.  Of course, the overall situation is still grim, so the Seals are still weakening, as Moiraine demonstrates in tFoH, but the next one to break does so after Rand brings the Aiel across the Dragonwall, and (sort of) looses the Shaido on the world.  Another blow to the collective hopes and beliefs of humanity, combined with the breaking of the White Tower.  However wrongly, people seem to put a great deal of faith in the Aes Sedai as the champions of the Light, as Min notes in tSR, and with the Tower shattering, the Prophet whipping up another fight, and Aiel coming out of the Waste again, only the Dragon Reborn at their head (only thing that could have been a harsher blow to people's hopes was if he led a horde of Trollocs) - well, you can see why &quot;belief and order&quot; might have taken a nosedive.<br /><br />This is a very workable idea, which opens all kinds of other doors as well!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


created: 2006-11-08 08:56:21
subject: <b>Nice theory, but</b>
body:
I do not think you can tie too many of the events at the end of the book together, or totally into the rest of the series.  Why?  RJ has stated many times that he purposefully made the ending of Eye seem somewhat final. That way, if the book did not sell well enough for another, or the reader chose not to read more of the series, there would be a sense of conclusion.  We are supposed to think that Balzamon is the DO, not Ishy.  Mo does at this point, only later do we realize she is wrong.    We are supposed to think that Rand scored a major victory, and thus the Blight receded (and never does again).<br /><br />You are probably right, if you are looking for a logical explanation of the events. However, I think you probably should not look for total continuity here, because this one  book was not really written with that in mind.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">May you be successful  in all your projects.<br /><br />I am a pastafarion.  The Flying Spaghetti Monster created the universe, and no one in Kansas can prove me wrong.<br /><br />http://www.vengaza.org</font><p></p>


created: 2006-11-08 11:33:40
subject: <b>A couple things....</b>
body:
While many readers contribute the hard/extended winter in tEotW to the DO, I beg to differ. There are some things that I like to point out in support of my feelings about this. One is that Bayle Domon gives us a pov about how the ice on the river had frozen solid and broken up late. However, only 11 day into the story, Rand, Mat and Thom find their way onto his ship. So, for him to make it that far from Saldaea and be where he was, the weather had already started warming enough to cause the ice to break some time back.<br /><br />Also, we see Perrin and Egwene find mushrooms to eat before they meet Elyas. Most mushrooms prefer moderate temperatures and high humidity, (spring or fall weather conditions for the most part), and take 2 - 4 weeks to reach maturity. <br /><br />Plus, after Rand and Mat leave Whitebridge, it rains on them day after day on their way to Caemlyn.<br /><br />These are all signs that winter had broken and spring was on its way. Plus, the story begins on Winternight, which is the last day of winter. So, my conclusion is that it was just a colder than normal winter that lingered a little longer than normal. <br /><br />Now, as to the rest, I would like some clarification. You state that the Dark One can't touch the world until the first seal is broken, but you also say that he withdrew his power/touch from the world to focus on breaking that first seal. This seems to be a contradiction to me, so maybe you can elaborate.<br /><br />The way I envisioned it was the DO exerting pressure on the weave that comprised the sealing, and &quot;popping the button&quot; that the thread was attached to. (If that makes sense) Instead of the thread or weave giving way, the button or seal it is attached to breaks, because it is the weaker link.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2006-11-08 15:44:43
subject: <b>Well, the snow had melted everywhere, but no one was heartened.</b>
body:
It was more the persistant cold, and the refusal of spring to come, not so much that the winter weather was preternaturally bad.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


created: 2006-11-08 17:04:17
subject: <b>The reason of the rebirth</b>
body:
I agree with you on most of your toughts, but I don't think it fully explains events leading up to the breaking of the first seal... <br /><br />I  am not quite sure about this so bare with me: What if the DO over time had stressed the first seal in periods - Spending a considerable amount of his power for a short period of time, these being the periods when which the seal was at its weakest allowing Ishy to escape? His power wasn't great enough to keep it up for long, so when he had to &quot;rest&quot;, Ishy was captured by the pattern again. Mark: For this entire period time (3000 years) no Dragon was reborn... Then finally the DO manages to, at last, destroy the first seal, permitting the rest of the Forsaken to slowly make there way out of their prison along with Ishy; And as the first seal brakes, the pattern feels the potential danger and spins the Dragon out to face the DO! So: I agree with you on most of the issues, but I just wanted to add this bit of thought; The Dragon is reborn as a direct result of the DO breaking the first seal under the Eye!


created: 2006-11-08 20:06:33
subject: <b>Not sure I'm sold on this,</b>
body:
but it's nice to have a new theory to read.  I've been mulling over the idea that the seal broke because Rand removed the essence of saidin from the Eye of the World.  Perhaps the seal was placed there in order to protect it from the deterioration we see in the other seals.  When Rand withdraws that protection, it breaks because it is supposed to break.  It is protected so Rand can break it when the time is right and remake/unmake or do whatever it is he is supposed to do to defeat the Dark One. So it should have been the last one, but instead it was the first because of Ishmael's scheming and the ineptitude of the Aes Sedai in interpreting the Prophecies.  I wish we had more to go on, but at least we can argue about details till the next book comes out.  <br /><br />P.S. If I were RJ, I think I'd be both pleased and saddened by how serious some of us are in debating the intracacies of the series.  Probably thinks we need to get a life (and he may be right). Then again, I might just laugh, convince people I could teach them to channel, and start my own little cult, sans aliens and Koolaid.  <br />I'm not sure why I mention this now. I guess too little sleep, too much caffiene, and too little womenly company of late play tricks on the mind.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Funny thing about weekends when you're unemployed, they don't mean quite so much...except you get to hang out with your working friends.&quot;<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2006-11-09 10:44:34
subject: <b>A couple of other possibilities...</b>
body:
Interesting theory, really got me thinking.  A couple of thoughts:<br /><br />The Aes Sedai who placed the seal, the Dragon banner and the Horn of Valere in the Eye had done so because of a Foretelling.  It seems likely that because of the Foretelling (which indicated how the Shadow might be defeated) and their superior knowledge of the One Power and Randland metaphysics, these Aes Sedai would have known that the Dragon would have to break the seals in order to fully repair the Dark One's prison, as Fel suggested ('clear the rubble' etc).  Perhaps the Eye was designed to shatter the seal as it was used, so that the process of 'rubble clearing' would irrevocably be set in motion?  Why else would they have put one of the seals there, rather than in 'safekeeping' like the other 6?  These Aes Sedai clearly had a pretty intense mastery of the Power : remember, they were able to design a shield around Callandor that would only allow the true Dragon Reborn to remove it, even though he was not yet born.  This suggests that they had the ability to create weaves that were directly responsive to the Pattern, in the sense that the shield was able to recognize a very specific ta'veren.  Since the Pattern has at least some role to play in keeping the DO imprisoned, and that the seals must therefore be somehow linked to the pattern, it is not inconceivable that the power at the Eye was 'woven' in such a way that when it unravelled it would snap the seal's connection to the Pattern.<br /><br />I suggest this as a possibility, because the idea that the Dark One caused the seal to break seems a bit odd... if he could do that, why did he wait until Rand was born?  Why not do it at some other point in time when the prison was 'waning' and Ishamael was free?<br /><br />As for the Blight withdrawing... perhaps Ishamael was forced to use such a massive amount of the TP in fighting Rand as he wielded the Eye that the DO was no longer able to support the Blight at its present level?


created: 2006-11-09 12:48:50
subject: <b>Nice idea, Callandorific</b>
body:
just not very likely, and there's a reason. From The Welcome, in tGH:<br /><br /> <i>&quot;Who comes here? Who comes here? Who comes here?&quot;<br /> The woman beside the palanquin tapped her staff three times in reply. <b>&quot;The Watcher of the Seals.</b> The Flame of Tar Valon. The Amyrlin Seat.&quot;</i><br /><br />And from The Shadow in Shienar, tGH:<br /><br /> <i>&quot;One of the seals on the Dark One's prison,&quot; she said finally, reluctantly. <b>It was those seven seals over which the Amyrlin Seat was supposed to be Watcher. The secret hidden from the world, if the world ever thought of it, was that no Amyrlin Seat had known where any of the seals were since the Trolloc Wars</b>.</i><br /><br />This says that all seven seals were supposed to be watched over by the Amyrlin Seat, and no Amyrlin Seat had known where <b>any</b> of the seals were since the Trolloc Wars. Siuan was certainly surprised to learn that one of them had been found within the Eye. <br /><br />If one of them had been hidden within the Eye for safekeeping, I would think that it would have been recorded somewhere so a new Amyrlin would know that's where one was. (They seem to keep track of everything else, even their own illegal activities.) So something as important as the seals, which they proudly include in their title, should warrant a mention somewhere. And, the quote pretty much implies all seven were lost during that war.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where once was Shadow<br /> Now reigns <b>Light</b><br /> Darkness fades<br /> <b>In</b>to <b>the Night</b><br /><br />Wotmania's Theory Post has the most!<br />Submit one of your own today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Wotmania's richest Wotmaniac!</font><p></p>


created: 2006-11-09 16:13:18
subject: <b>The Eye was not used for the purpose it was made</b>
body:
At least according to RJ, IIRC.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cannoli<br />&quot;I'm German-Irish&quot; - Tom Hagen<br />&#8220;There is no safety for honest men, except by believing all possible evil of evil men&quot; - Edmund Burke<br /><b>Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!</b><br />Deus vult!</font><p></p>


created: 2006-11-09 16:43:24
subject: <b>Watcher of the Seals</b>
body:
In response to your point regarding the title &quot;Watcher of the Seals&quot; and that AS had no idea where they were do not forget that the AS of the WT are not the same AS who made the Eye. Also do not forget that during the Trolloc Wars many AS died or turned to the shadow as well as some Trollocs managed, I believe, to breach the WTs walls and burned a section of the Tower library. Perhaps the location of the seals was contained within here? Also, a famous Amrylin died in a battle in the Trolloc Wars. She was known for being a fierce warrior. Perhaps combined with the death of a sitting Amrylin and destruction of a part of the library equaled the loss of the information of the Eye and the seal? Its possible not even the Keeper would be granted this information or that she would have died as well. In the chaos of the Trolloc Wars MUCH information was lost. I feel however that the title &quot;Watcher of the Seals&quot; implies that the AS knew the location of the seals at one point, perhaps all of them were lost during the wars. My only problem with Callandorifics idea is that not even AoL AS knew how to break cuendillar. O/C wasn't that seal also broken along the border of white and black? Perhaps it wasn't broken, just the male and female cuendillar was seperated? Maybe its still not even &quot;broken&quot;. Perhaps this one was designed like that, incomplete, to represent the schism between Lews Therin and Latra Posae?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Egwene must die.<br />Rand Al'Thor will face her wrath...<br />And laugh in her face!</font><p></p>


