# w_comment

created: 2001-05-30 08:42:02
subject: <b>Binder Rod</b>
body:
The Black Ajah didn't initiate use of the Oath Rod. It's original purpose was to bind someone in the form of a sentence, a judgement of law. Semirhage was the renowned healer, called upon world wide to save people from the brink of death. When the Aes Sedai learned of her 'extracurricular' activities while healing, the 'extra bit', as I think she says it to herself, they offer her two choices; stilling or binding. She considers these both unacceptable choices, so turns to the Dark Side.<br /><br />My guess is, after seeing enough channelers who became bound as punishment by the Rod, and the ageless look it gave them, Aes Sedai pride being what it is and all, they crafted the Three Oaths to have a reason for using the Rod and gaining &quot;The Look&quot;.<br /><br />Certainly, the side effects of being bound by the Rod include the ageless look and a shortening of the inherently long life channelers potentially enjoy. Mesaana was well over three hundred years old at the point of the Breaking, and was considered just into her middle years. <br /><br />Elayne has it all but figured out, but there's a new problem. Siuan now has Egwene convinced that the Oath Rod is what makes Aes Sedai what they are. Perhaps some time with the Kin, some elder Windfinders, and other aged channelers who aren't bound to the Rod will help change Egwene's mind back.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> Call_me_Tim <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> Call me Tim <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-30 02:47:47
subject: <b>Ageless Appearance = Prolonged use of the one power</b>
body:
It is mentioned, in book 5, when Nynaeve and Elayne meet the Whitecloaks while using their guise as dye traders, that they didn't yet have the ageless appearance associated with the prolonged use of the OP. It's not because of the Oath Rod.<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-08-03 09:01:23
subject: <b>None of the female forsaken has the ageless look</b>
body:
There are more women than Aes Sedai that has channeled for a long time, the Kin, the Wise Ones, the Windfinders, the Damanes and the Forsaken... no one has the ageless look, except the Aes Sedai <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />The only difference is that Aes Sedais use their Oath Rod...<br /><br />Also, in the Age of Legends, criminals were &quot;bound&quot; somehow to not commit crime. Now, why wouldnt they just bind everyone to that?<br />Maybe because they knew that binding someone to an oath (using one of the Oath Rods) would shorten their lives, and distort their faces in a way that everyone would recognize a criminal?<br /><br />I believe that the Oath Rod that the Aes Sedai have only works on women who can channel, but since there was nine rods, most likely some of them could be used to bind &quot;commoners&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-08-18 17:41:28
subject: <b>MTE</b>
body:
My thoughts exactly. Period.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gandalf.gif" border="0" /> Gandalv the Gray <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gandalf.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Aes Sedai of the Age of Legends <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> Faithful servant of the Creator <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /> Bringer-back of Moiraine <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" /> Decapitator of Myrddraal and their Kin <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-01 11:46:04
subject: <b>Semirhage has said as much</b>
body:
<br />Here's a quote<br /><br />(LoC: Threads Woven of Shadow):<br /><br />&quot;... to be bound and never to know her pleasures again, and with that binding be able to see the end of life approach ...&quot;


created: 2001-09-04 17:01:49
subject: <b>Another Quote</b>
body:
I'm sorry I don't have the reference before me right now, but I remember distinctly when one of the Forsaken was ranting about the worthlessness of today's &quot;Aes Sedai,&quot; the comment was made that &quot;They bind themselves like criminals...&quot;<br /><br />I assume you all remember that quote, but I was just surprised that it hadn't been brought up here.<br /><br />As for the Ageless features, well, remeber that whenever they talk about someone &quot;Achieving the ageless look that comes with long use of the Power,&quot; that is coming from someone's PoV. Everyone in WoTWorld thinks that Channeling brings  about the ageless look. They've thought this for thousands of years. They don't know that the Oath Rod is the reason for it, so when they are thinking about it, they think of the Power as the reason for it. There are plenty of times when the narration from one character's point of view is wrong or mistaken, mostly when one character makes an assumption about what another character is thinking or feeling. There's no surprise that, prior to CoS, the characters would think of the agelessness as an effect of the Power.<br /><br />I hope this stuff clears some things up without being too painfully obvious... just some points that I thought should be brought up.


created: 2001-10-09 19:11:04
subject: <b>here's what i think</b>
body:
I believe the oath rod is what causes the ageless look in Aes Sedai and I also believe that the Oath Rod shortens their lifespans.  However, hee's a question.  When Siuan and Leane are stilled, they look young again, but when the AS (don't remember their names, but it was in PoD and WH) in the Tower free themselves of the Oaths, they don't become younger looking.  So I have a dilemma, is it the One Power or is it the fact that they Bind themselves (which I still believe it is even though I have found this contradiction too my theory.)<br /><br />Nimvin<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-10-22 07:13:30
subject: <b>Aes Sedai Lives Shortened by Oath Rod</b>
body:
I agree the oath rod shortens their lifes because of the stress of telling the &quot;truth&quot; all the time. They just get plain tired of skirting around. I believe it is the long use of the power that gives them the ageless look and long life.<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Lurker Extraordinaire <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/blush.gif" border="0" /><br />mother to siamese cats Monty and Cleo <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-12-17 16:01:27
subject: <b>my thoughts....</b>
body:
My thoughts exactly Luthair Paendrag.  <br /><br />I think that not holding the Oath Rod is why the Forsaken do not have the ageless look, definately not prolonged use of the One Power.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sigone Sedai <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-19 20:51:27
subject: <b>Rods are shorter then they appear</b>
body:
I think the Oath Rod shorten's Aes Sedai lives, all of the other cultures of women who channel, the Wise Ones, the Wind Finders, and especially the Kin, who have not taken the Three Oaths have been known to live much longer then any Aes Sedai, so much so that the Sisters are shocked by the age of some of the Kin.  The fact that these women can live so much longer and yet still look only middle aged, shows some proof that it just may be the stress of the Rod that causes Aes Sedai to die sooner.<br /><br />Just a little note I thought up of,<br />Melanie Sedai<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/egwene.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-07-10 17:19:33
subject: <b>Black Ajah and the Oath Rod...</b>
body:
It seems to me that if the Black Ajah originally instituted the use of the Oath Rod-intending to shorten the lives of the non-darkfriend Aes Sedai, there would be one of two consequences.  Which consequence would be based on whether, after freeing themselves of the oaths, they swear new oaths using the Oath Rod.  Since all darkfriends swear oaths to the shadow, in the Black Ajah's case, the question would be whether or not they swear those darkfriend oaths using the Oath Rod or even if they have a separate set of Black Ajah oaths swarn on said ter'angreal.<br />A. If after releasing themselves of the oaths, they swear no more on the Oath Rod, do they then not gain the agelessness?  If that is the case, they would be flagging themselves as darkfriends when no signs of agelessness appeared.<br />B. If they do re-swear on the Oath Rod, they would be cutting their own lives short as well.  If the Black Ajah did instate use of the Oath Rod to shorten the lives of other Aes Sedai, it seems backwards that they would then suffer the same consequences themselves.<br /><br />Perhaps the real question is: what about the Oath Rod is it that has an effect on lifespan?  Is it being bound by it for a prolonged period of time, or simply using it?  Or is it even the Oath Rod itself that has the additional effects of agelessness appearance and shorter life?  It seems more palpable that it is a combination of things that has these side effects.  The Kin for example do seem to have some of the ageless effects of Aes Sedai (although subtler).  Some Aes Sedai (such as Cadsuane) do live to be as old as some of the Kin.  It seems to me that there are too many exceptions for there to be one clear cut answer to the question of Oath Rod side effects.  <br />...of course...that's just my opinion...I could be wrong.


created: 2002-10-23 11:53:41
subject: <b>Oath Rod is actually a binding rod used for punishment</b>
body:
To consolidate some of the preceeding comments:<br /><br />A few quotes from LOC: Threads Woven of Shadow<br /><br />Demandred's point of view:<br />  &quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" />emandred&gt;'Do they bind themselves like criminals?' ... she had not reasoned it out... Few people in their time had ever commited one violent crime, let alone more&quot;<br /><br />later, Graendal's point of view:<br />  &quot; It would be interesting to discover how he had found out about the binding.  She herself would never have learned had Mesaana not made a rare slip while venting her anger...she did not realize how much she had revealed.  How long had Mesaana been tucked away inside the White Tower?&quot;<br /><br /><br />and finally, Semirhage's point of view:<br />  &quot;Hall of Servants had offered her a choice that was no choice: to be bound never to know her pleasures again, and with that binding be able to see the end of her life approach<br /><br /><br />and I think it was Lanfear that said &quot;They bind themselves like criminals&quot;<br /><br /><br />From these, we can see that repeated violent criminals were punished with a binding.  This binding does shorten their lifespan noticeably.  It isn't a big jump to assume that the binding they are talking about is the Oath Rod, so it is the binding of the Oath Rod that shortens their life.  I am not convinced yet though, that it is the Oath Rod that gives the Aes Sedai their ageless appearance.  If so, I would assume that any of the Forsaken would know immedialtly about the binding just by looking at any Aes Sedai. On the contrary, the impression from Graendal and Demandred is that they assumed the other person didn't know about the binding, which I don't' think they would have assumed if the Agelessness was a distinctive characteristic of the binding.<br /><br />


created: 2002-11-26 12:06:09
subject: <b>Its all about the amount of power.</b>
body:
<br />   Ok heres my theroy,  the oath Rod means nothing in terms of how long women can live while able to touch the sorce. <br />   Look at all the groups of women who can chanel.  First the Kin,  live the longest, and touch the sorce the least.  2nd,  those women from over the Sea in Chains,  they only chanel in war time,  yes  theres always been reblion and war there,  but with the amout of women chaneling,  each women only chanels verry little.  Next we have the wise women,from the &quot;black eyed savages&quot;  who chanel not much at all,  but more then the others and seem to live along time, yet not as long as the kin.  Then theres the women from the White Tower,  they chanel all the time,  or so it seems,  and they have the shortest life of all the women.  Cuaduse (pradon my spelling but i do not have the books in front of me) seems to chanel verry little,  and is the oldest and seems to have much life left in her.  Unlike, (darn i cant rember her name)  but the Sisiter whos blood sister was killed,  seems to be nearing then end of her life.  Of course this is all subjective sincewe do not know to what extend each of these women chanel,  but you get the idea.<br />  How ever if we find out that Sea Folk wind finders live along time,  well my theory in junk and I am sorry for talking up space on the net.  But if dose mention the lenght of life for   a Wind Finder and I missed it,  please some one let me know.<br />  Jehu Elohim


created: 2002-12-02 09:11:32
subject: <b>I agree</b>
body:
i agree with the theory that the Oath Rod shortens the lives of Aei Sedai, but i think that it may be a good idea that they don't live as long as they could. I mean, who would want a horrible person like Eailda running around for a thousand years, pulling strings and making life in general harder for everyone else? <br /><br /><br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> Snarl of the Wolf King <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br />     Golden Eyes <br />Shining in the Night<br />   A Wolf in soul<br />   if not in body<br /> I run with the Pack<br />I fight with my teeth<br />    I fear none.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> Snarl of the Wolf King <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />As the darkness deepens<br />Young Bull waits,<br />the fires of his anger<br />burning bright in the night<br />His eyes glowing golden<br />Ax shimmering with the cold moonlight;<br />Young Bull crouches<br />awaiting the Dawn<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-11-11 12:19:00
subject: <b>Hmmmm</b>
body:
First off the kin dont use anything associated with the one power out of fear they they thought the agless look was from Aes Sedei near omnipotence,which of course they are not.  Now on the Black Ajah they did not exist until the Trolloc          Wars,and Aes Sedei had already been swearing on the Outh Rod for a thousand years.


created: 2005-05-20 00:00:26
subject: <b>not true</b>
body:
Cadsuane's life has definatly not been shortened any by the oath rod.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">YodasFather<br /><br />There are only 10 types of people in the world - those who understand binary, and those who don't.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-12-28 10:58:28
subject: <b>Sammael ans Graendel</b>
body:
LoC- pgs 179-180; 182-183<br /><br />Clear references to the Oathe Rod being used as a binding punishment in the Age of Legends. Semirhage was given this sentence, yet escaped by going to Shayol Ghul.


created: 2001-04-02 00:00:00
subject: <b>Nine Rods of Dominion</b>
body:
The Oath Rods are most certainly not the same as the Nine Rods of Dominion. For one thing, the Forsaken refer to the Oath Rods as "binders," not Rods of Dominion. For another, the number on Sevanna's binder is 111 (in the old tongue) while the Tower's bears the number 3. This seems to indicate that Sevanna's Oath Rod is the 111th binder (maybe refering to the order it was created in, or that it was used in the 111th circuit court of the AoL.) So, the Oath Rods aren't the same as the 9 Rods of Dominion, although that is what many Aes Sedai believe.


created: 2002-06-22 16:01:42
subject: <b>uuuuummmmm nope</b>
body:
wotmania, dont forget, when galina is bound by sevanna, after sammael as caddar gives the later a device used to bind channelers, galina takes one look at it and says that had she not known it impossible, she would have sworn that the rod sevanna had was the oath rod from the tower...ITS NUMBER was ONE HUNDRED AND ELEVEN...since the aes sedai belives it to be the same (i know she is black amd cna lie, but her sentiments were internalized! what? is she gonna lie to herself?) as the oath rod in the tower, we can assume that the oath rod is NOT one of the rods of dominion.


created: 2001-03-28 00:00:00
subject: <b>Aes Sedai agelessness</b>
body:
I believe that the ageless looks of Aes Sedai are only in women who can channel saidar.  If you notice, Lews Therin, Rand, Logain, Taim and every other male channeler is never described as having ageless looks.  The fact that only Aes Sedai have the ageless look can be explained by the fact that they use the One Power more frequently than other female channelers


created: 2001-03-29 00:00:00
subject: <b>Wise Ones and agelessness</b>
body:
Upon meeting the Wise Ones before Rand entered Rhuidean for the first time, it seemed to me that they had some semblance of agelessness about them.  There is no doubt that besides their snow-white hair, they have youthful appearances, even Amys, Bair, and Sorilea.  Amys has survived several husbands, and unless her marriages were exceedingly short, that would make her pretty aged.  But woe is me, I cannot remember which ones can channel.  I think it was Bair and Melaine.  So maybe it is just the Aiel way of life that preserves them so well, like mummies are in the desert sands. <img src="images/pharoah.gif" /><p>In the name of love, <br />Arien<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Arien <br /><br /><i><font color='blue" size="2'>nobody said it was easy/nobody said it would be this hard</font></i></font></p><p></p>


created: 2001-05-30 08:58:51
subject: <b>Ageless vs. Slowed</b>
body:
There is a huge difference between having the ageless look and having the appearance of your real age be deceiving due to &quot;the Slowing&quot;. <br /><br />Nynaeve, because of her early wilder experience with the Power, has begun to slow. Yet she keeps getting frustrated with folks who won't believe she's really Aes Sedai because she doesn't have the ageless look. <br /><br />The Accepted that Elayne refers to, the oldest accepted in the Tower, who looks in her twenties but has a younger sister in her forties, does not look ageless.<br /><br />There is a Wavemistress/Windfinder pair of sisters, where the windfinder is older yet looks much younger. Not ageless.<br /><br />The Kin don't look ageless, but they surely don't look their true age.<br /><br />The ageless look IS MOST CERTAINLY an effect of the Oath Rod. It's the only difference between Aes Sedai and other channelers. It's nothing to do with amount of use of the Power. Nynaeve and Elayne actually have that conversation. Elayne berates Nyn for not paying attention to classes, that it's nothing to do with use of the Power that causes the ageless look.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> Call_me_Tim <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> Call me Tim <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-03 09:09:40
subject: <b>Female Forsaken</b>
body:
Just look at the female Forsaken.<br />They have been channeling for atleast 300 years, and they do not have the ageless look. You cant say that they have been channeling LESS than the Aes Sedai of today <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Alivia, the Damane who has been channeling for 400 years, she doesnt have the ageless look, and you can bet that she has been channeling every day since becoming Damane <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-08-18 17:43:43
subject: <b>Not as far as I am convinced...</b>
body:
Just using the power causes the wielder to look a lot younger, but using the Oath Rod causes you to look ageless. You can put an age to the Kin, though it will be horribly wrong, but to Aes Sedai, you can't put an age at all. My 2 cents.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gandalf.gif" border="0" /> Gandalv the Gray <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gandalf.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Aes Sedai of the Age of Legends <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> Faithful servant of the Creator <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /> Bringer-back of Moiraine <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" /> Decapitator of Myrddraal and their Kin <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-12-08 04:11:46
subject: <b>Proof</b>
body:
I read a proof onceon the ageless appearance.   It referred to when Rand whent into the Ter'angreal in Rhuidean.   It talks about seeing an Aei Sedai without the Ageless face, yet much older then 100 years.   Then, after the breaking, after the use of the oathrod was required, she is seen with the ageless face.   The Wise ones are described as having faces which do not reflect their age, yet Aei Sedai have Destinct Ageless faces.   It had many quotes on how RJ states the descriptions.   Too bad I dont have it for you now.   But the oath rod is in fact what gives Aei Sedai their ageless face.   It may or may not shorten their actual life.   It may just be the fact that Aei Sedai put themselves in situations that get them killed and so their average life span is short compared to that of a Wise One or one of the Kin, both of whom avoid conflict.


created: 2002-04-13 07:57:12
subject: <b>After an oath</b>
body:
I'm not sure, but I think Moiraine described a feel of a tightening of the skin on her face in New Spring. She had recently taken the oaths. The two sisters who are hunting the black Ajah mentioned something similar. They had released themselves from one of the oaths and sworn again. If im correct this would account for the smooth ageless face


created: 2002-04-26 21:56:11
subject: <b>Reiteration</b>
body:
Slowing is a charateristic of all channelers.  The ageless appearence is unique to the Aes Sedai because of their use of the Oath Rod.  The Oath Rod shortens their lifespans and makes them look ageless.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" />Kaoslord<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /> Putting the 'K' back in Kaos<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-12-19 13:36:10
subject: <b>Amys</b>
body:
Amys looks like she is in her twenties, but she has been a wise one before she married Rhuarc, and Rhuarc is the same age as Amys.  But Rhuarc is in his late fifties-early sixties.


created: 2003-01-16 16:38:31
subject: <b>well this IS how I believe it is</b>
body:
When you use the power you get a longer life and the ageing is proportional to the age you can achieve.<br /><br />But one of the drawbacks on using the oathrod is that it shortens your life considerably. This is quite clear after Reading CoT. and it is also from the oathrod that you get your agelessness.. as someone above stated, there is a difference between slow ageing and agelessness...<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">blood and bloody keyboard<br />- i did spell it right, but my keyboard didn't..</font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-25 16:10:09
subject: <b>agelessness</b>
body:
I am of the opinion that the oath rod is the reason for the agelessness.<br />We see that when siuan and leanne are stilled they are released from their oaths and hense revert back to a face of youngishness, not ageless.<br />it seems more than a coincidence to me!<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" />keeping the first secret always means keeping ten more... <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-08-07 12:06:37
subject: <b>What About...</b>
body:
...the brown ajah members who never leave a library? they don't have very danjerus (sp) lives...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">___________________<br />Evilmonkey<br /><br /><i>&quot;Madness waits for some. It creeps up on others.&quot;</i><br />-Lews Therin Telamon</font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-17 02:18:21
subject: <b>maybe</b>
body:
I do agree that the Oath Rod shorten the lives of Aes Sedai but don't think it cause the ageless look, because a Aiel named Urien in TGH commented that Verin had the look if a Wise One, and they don't use the Oath Rod...hmmm? not sure thoe<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">As always- Thomas Crown<br /><br />&quot;Regret . . . is usually a waste of time. As is gloating&quot; <br /><br />There is something about anything, that in some light, at some time, doesn&#8217;t look half as bad as it did, and THIS mind plays hide and go seek. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sleepy.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-21 23:38:33
subject: <b>Ummm....no</b>
body:
Umm..no, the Knitting Circle consists mainly of people who wanted to be Aes Sedi more than anythign and were rejected because tehy learned to slowly or for other reasons. Yes, a few of them did not like all the work they had to do, and thus ran away, but the majority of them wanted to be Aes Sedi, which would explain why they have a system somewhat like how the Aes Sedi's tower is. Also, the Oath Rod does limit life. Back in the A of L, most of the AS's lived close to 600 years depending on their strengths. How odd that now that they are bonded by an oath rod, that they seem to age much more quickly than they used too.... *thinks to self* <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /> True Power is knowing that you can, but you don't. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-red.gif" border="0" /> -Deathbone1 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-green.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Current rank in Wse PTS: 164 out of top 1000 (7/8/03)<br />We are men of action. Lies do not become us.<br />Life finds a way.<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-12-23 20:27:55
subject: <b>Definate no...</b>
body:
Remember what Semirhage once thought to herself regarding the punishment proposed by the AS in the Age of Legends:  To be stilled or *to be bound and see the end of life approach*.  I think it's pretty obvious from this passage that the Oath Rod shortens the life span of channelers.<br /><br />Regarding the &quot;ageless look&quot;:  If it isn't caused by the Oath Rod, then why do Leanne and Siuan both look young again after being stilled and even after being Healed, where before they had the ageless look.  Or what about the fact that the Aes Sedai think that the look comes from working the power for a certain time, but have never seen an individual with the ageless look who has worn the shaw less than 2 or 3 years...Even tho some people (eg:Siuan and Moiraine) have been novices and Accepted for as few as 10 years, while others were novicesfor _much_ longer. (I think one example was almost 80 yrs at the Tower before attaining the Shawl.)  And finally in this category,  What about some of the Kin who are several _centuries_ older than any Aes Sedai, regularly (if w/in strict limits) use the OP, and yet still look fairly young, or at worst in late middle age.<br /><br />Just some food for thought....<br /><br />Oppa Kom, The Dreadful Bear


created: 2001-06-06 19:53:55
subject: <b>agelessness</b>
body:
Agelessness is not equivalent to slowing.  Agelessness is a noticible trait, whereas Lanfear and Grandeal and all the rest jsut look youthful.  They look like they are twenty something because biologically they still are.  Reanne has grey hair at four hundred + because at her rate of aging that how long it took.  WHere due to their binding and lesser strength in the power the AS remain &quot;ageless&quot; ie indeterminate while gettting older.  Slower than the average woman but faster thatn the unbound.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where did these Skimmers come from?  I mean if they didn't want to read the book they could have just Traveled to another author.  Why risk arriving at the wrong destination?  Why risk falling into darkness?</font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-17 15:08:16
subject: <b>Oath Rod does cut lifespan</b>
body:
Actually, I think that the oath rod severly cuts down a channeler's lifespan as a side effect. In WH, when Egwene and Elayne are arguing in the World of Dreams and Egwene says that she plans to allow Aes Sedai to retire to the Kin so that they may have the Oaths removed, this is the very center of the argument. One of them does, in fact, come out and say that that is a side effect of the Oath Rod and why the Kin/Wise Ones/etc. all outlive Aes Sedai by a good amount of years. This is also alluded to earlier in the books when the Forsaken are discussing Aes Sedai, and Demandred (I think) says that he wonders why they bind themselves as criminals.


created: 2003-01-13 19:07:21
subject: <b>I think you are mistaken</b>
body:
I am pretty sure that what you are talking about is not the Agelessness, but rather the slowing that comes from channeling. Slowing makes the channeler appear younger than they really are, whereas the Oath Rod makes them look Ageless.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">They ran through the trees, and they ran through the forests,<br />They ran through the bushes where the beavers wouldn't go.<br />They ran so fast they forgot to take their culture,<br />Down the Mississippi to the Gulf of Mexico...o...o<br />-The War of 1812</font><p></p>


created: 2001-04-16 00:00:00
subject: <b>Something Already pointed out</b>
body:
What about the novice or Accpeted (can't remember which) that Nyn mistook to be in 20 or 30 but is in actuallity 80 years old.  She would have the same training as AS but neither Nyn or Eylane (Egw) made mention of a novice or Accepted with the ageless look.  No AS gets the ageless look until she has sworn on the OathRod, regardless of how long that AS was a novice and Accepted.


created: 2002-02-19 11:43:55
subject: <b>what about?</b>
body:
And the aes sedai, that where seen in Rand's vision in the four book.<br />And moghedien saying that in the AOL, the block of Nynaeve would be solved in no time, and also said that in AOL they live much longer, something like they are young at the age of 300 dont remember exactly book or frase.<br />And our new friend from Seanchan more powerful than Nynaeve, and very joung indeed.


created: 2004-02-24 01:12:41
subject: <b>Not the oathrod</b>
body:
I do not believe it is the oathrod.<br />I think it is the three rings the novices have to go through to become accepted.<br />The only people who have the ageless look are Aes Sedai and Aiel Wise Ones. Only the Wise Ones that can channel get the agelessness.<br /><br />Aes Sedai went through the rings in the White Tower to become accepted.<br /><br />Wise Ones go through rings in Rhuidean to become Wise Ones.<br /><br />Atha'an Miere Windfinders, The Kin, and Seanchan Damane do not go through any rings and do not get the ageless look.<br /><br />Also as apk5 pointed out there was an accepted that did not look any older than 20 or 30 but is actually 80. As an accepted she has gone through the rings.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perplexed.gif" border="0" />Why do cows moo?<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perplexed.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Thats one <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/crazy.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />All <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/clown.gif" border="0" />s must die</font><p></p>


created: 2004-05-25 04:57:22
subject: <b>it's got to be the Oath Rod!</b>
body:
<br />IMO i think the Oaths and  the Rod cause the Agelessness - there is a big difference between slowing -all users of the Power - and Aes sedai Agelssness - only attributed to AS - who have only one thing not in common with t'others - the Oath Rod. i have no evidence as such but for me that's the most obvious answer.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">~Moonwolf~<br />Wolf-sister and Aes Sedai of the Brown Ajah</font><p></p>


created: 2001-04-16 00:00:00
subject: <b>Could mean</b>
body:
Just because the Aiel said that the years did not touch Verin as they did not touch the Wise Ones (speaking of which he made it sound like all Wise Ones, but not all Wise ones can channel so maybe something else) but anyways back to the point.  Maybe he just meant that verin did not look as old as some other clues besides her face would point to.  Everybody seems to assume that slowing and agelessness are the same thing but for the most part we can never be sure if the person is talking about looking youthful and looking ageless.


created: 2001-05-22 15:25:56
subject: <b>forsaken non-agelessness</b>
body:
They get many advantages from being a &quot;chosen.&quot; One of these must be that they do not need the ageless look, just as they are immortal. They are connected to the darkn one after all.


created: 2001-08-14 12:40:42
subject: <b>Don't forget......</b>
body:
The &quot;Kin&quot; are also able to channel and do not have the &quot;agelessness&quot; about them. And don't forget, some of the Kin are over three hundred years old. Since that is true, it doesn't necessarily follow that the lack of agelessness is a gift from the DO. Since only the AS seem to have the ageless faces, it must have something to do with the way they use the one power that is different from the other channelers. If it is not the oath rod, then it could be the way they handle the flows.


created: 2001-09-05 19:00:38
subject: <b>o.O</b>
body:
Maybe the great serpent ring they have is some odd ter'angreal that makes them have the agless look....


created: 2001-10-23 10:16:05
subject: <b>Agelessness Caused by Not Oath Rods, but Accepted Rings</b>
body:
Throughout these theories posted so far, two examples of why the oath rod cannot be the cause of the agelessness have been mentioned and two haven't yet come up.  One is the accepted that is 80 but looks 20.  Another is the comment to Verin about having the look of a wise one.  What do the two have in commen?  Both have been through a version of the Accepted test; the three rings.  <br /><br />The two points that haven't come up is that One: our girls, Egwene, Elayne, etc, that haven't yet taken oaths but HAVE performed the ritual of the Accepted, are starting the show signs of agelessness; and Two: Cadsuane and the older Kin both are ancient and show signs of age and these people have also taken the Accepted ritual in many cases.  Perhaps after so many years, the agelessness simply becomes less aged.  I mean, really, what does agelessness mean?  Perhaps it is simply that one has the face of a young woman and the eyes of an old one?


created: 2002-03-29 13:46:02
subject: <b>ability</b>
body:
Could it be possible that using the one power more often makes Aes Sedai look younger, but live shorter lives than the Kin? After all the kin are older, but they have been avoiding use of the one power so they could stay hidden. Where as the Aes Sedai do not live as long due to more frequent use of the power.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-08-04 19:03:24
subject: <b>ramblings...</b>
body:
i think eggtooth brought up a very valid point, but in addition, maybe the ring ter'angreal the wise ones must go through in rhuidean has some sort of effect on ones' appearance of age.  also, i get the impressions that none of the Kin have the exact same agelessness as aes sedai, or elayne and nynaeve woulg have noticed and made a point of factoring it into their decision that the oath rod must be the  reason.   perhaps it is a combination of effects from the rings or some other device that is used for the tests from accepted to aes sedai that give the women the agelessness.  jordan hasn't really explained much of that set of tests beyond that the oath rod is involved.  i cant imagine it is just a matter of swearing on the oath rod.  i dont think we have seen enough about these tests nor have we seen enough descriptions of wise ones' appearances to really make any theories that cant be picked apart easily.  theres no telling how the uses of all these ter'angreal affect women (and men) differently.<br />oh, and dont forget about other women who have been using the power a long time (wilders, windfinders, damane, suldam?)<br />too early to find a solution that we can even pencil in, but it is still fun to try <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />onnestabe


created: 2002-08-18 16:09:20
subject: <b>slowing</b>
body:
the wise ones, the kin, and the aes sedai all slow. this comes from long use of the one power. but only aes sedai have the ageless face. this is from using the oath rod. on of the forsaken say that they bind themselfs like criminals. then later says that they gave her a choice to be bound from her pleasures (hurting people when she would Heal them) marked and see the end of her life coming. this marking could be the ageless face. it also explanes why aes sedai do not like as long as the kin.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Thinking of things for sig's is hard</font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-29 22:04:59
subject: <b>Arghhh</b>
body:
Only Aes Sedai and Wise Ones have the Ageless look.  It is something seen easily.  That's why the Aiel in TGH calls Verin a Wise One.  So the ring ter'angreal is the perfect theory.  It helps to clear things up.  Slowing is from use of the power.  Agelss look comes from a successful trip (the Kin were UNsuccessful, remember) through the rings.  Forsaken are different because of the Dark One.  The Oath Rod only affects life span.<br /><br />Isn't this clear to anyone else?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Bob L. Sedai (a.k.a. Luge) <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /><br />Fighting off the Taint - <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tinfoilhat.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" />Thanks given to Burr, the ever-helpful theory critic<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />And to Light in the Night, fellow theorist extraordinaire<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Voted Best Screenname 1 (one) years in a row.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-03-29 00:00:00
subject: <b>Not quite</b>
body:
This has been argued before, but I'll restate it here.<br />The ter'angreal that novices walk through when they become Accepted uses Tel'Aran'Rhiod in some fasion. This is proven by Egwene's third test in it, when there was a 'resonance' between the ter'angreal and her ring ter'angreal that allows access to T'A'R. The Aes Sedai said that the resonance was a type that occurs when two ter'angreal that perform similar functions are used in close proximity. Therefore, the testing ter'angreal is an entrance to a piece of T'A'R that is shaped by both the ter'angreal and whoever walks through. Now, in T'A'R things are shaped by the mind. Egwene believed that Aes Sedai had an ageless appearance, which she thought is brought about by using the One Power, so she DID have the ageless appearance. You'll also remember that in her test, she didn't know her Keeper had been stilled, when any Aes Sedai would be able to determine that. She just didn't know how, so it wasn't taken into account.


created: 2001-04-03 00:00:00
subject: <b>Agree with rebuttal but...</b>
body:
I agree that that the oath rod does give the ageless look but using the Accepted test for Egw is using a double standard for it though.  To say that she did not know about the oath rod causing agelessness and that stilling does not effect that look does not make sense.  This is because during her test she was also almost subverted by the 13 AS and 13 Myd and she did not know about that until she was out and asked about it.


created: 2001-06-16 12:44:41
subject: <b>......</b>
body:
i've not read whole of the text...sorry but no time...<br />but i've read the start with the title...<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />i think that its right...<br />the Rod is not the key...<br />chaneling is!!!<br />none of the forsaken has it!<br />LTT doesn't have ageless face!<br />and somewhere (don't reamember where sorry...) it is said that u need 2 channel enough 2 get the ageless face...<br />seanchans live longer cause they DON'T channel!<br />damanes may live the same but their ability must be a lot stronger then the suldams...<br />so basically i think htat its the amount of chaneling that counts...<br />i wonder how much did rand and nynaeve waste while cleaning the source...<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">A very very wise man once sai &quot;i dunno go ask a woman!'<br /><br />life without WoT is like a broken pencel!<br />POINTLESS!<br /><br />am i here<br />maybe i'm there<br />i can be everywhere!<br />but here, where here is for thy<br />I sure not<br />but I might be there...<br /><br />use thy brai</font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-14 17:03:07
subject: <b>Wrong arguments...</b>
body:
Why would the AS channel so MUCH more than the Aiel or Seanchans or those from the Age of Legends? This does not make sense. If the AS agelesness is not caused by the Oath Rod, it is certainly not caused only by chaneling but by something else like the way the AS weave the flows. I think, however, that there is enough evidence to point to the Oath Rod and dismiss other theories.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">--<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br />Bane of the Colorfull One</font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-27 12:05:51
subject: <b>if not the oath rod</b>
body:
what else do the aes sedi share with the wise ones?  i thought about it and maybe the clue was given by the first poster.  the rings the acceped step through.    perhaps the rings are similar to the ones the wise ones step through in reuhaiden  please for give the spelling and the generalness but i have no books with me nor have i memorzed them.<br /><br />i think the oath rod is what shortens the life of the aes sedi which may lead to interesting conclusions about causdene living for so long.<br /><br />just an idea<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">patiently waiting for October 2009</font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-28 22:47:29
subject: <b>maybe this? Perhaps?</b>
body:
Maybe it's the Great Serpent Ring. Sedai are the only channelers who wear it, yes? Maybe it holds this property...or maybe they're ter'angeral...maybe?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I am the Lone Mantis of the Apocalypse! Think of me when you look into the night sky!</font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-06 00:35:49
subject: <b>Accepted test not real</b>
body:
The appearance of her face would be what she expected it to be because she didn't know at that time.  Other books seem to have almost said that the oath rod is shortening their lives and if that's the only difference between WOs and Kin and AS that must be what is causing the ageless look.  <br /><br />I don't think there's been even a hint that it might be something else causing the ageless look.<br /><br />It seems like the Ter'angreal for the Accepted test is a little like Tel'aran'roid (sp?).  It uses your mind to test your fears.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-green.gif" border="0" /> Jedi Knight <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-green.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-green.gif" border="0" /> Member of the WoT-Jedi Council <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-green.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />My First Duty is to the Truth<br />I am Jack's complete lack of Surprise</font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-28 09:22:26
subject: <b>wrong</b>
body:
dont have time to waste on you people. Egwene says the differance between AS and others are the three oaths this means that (if you spell it out for some people) to remain amylin she will have to swear the oaths,when she takes the tower back which is jordans way of saying Egwenes going to win or at least get her hands on the rod and remain amyrlin achieving the ageless look. thou art all dumbasses<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> &quot;you say we should make our swords into ploughshares. well i say to you what good is a ploughshare when trollocs roam the fields&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Caraman Gaiden<br /><br />The journeyman battle brother


created: 2002-06-06 15:02:03
subject: <b>regarding Amys</b>
body:
In TSR, when Rand enters Cold Rock Hold, he comments on how Amys looks younger than she should but lacks the agelessness that aes sedai have.  So


created: 2002-08-07 15:35:54
subject: <b>RJ Made a Mistake?!? :::gasp:::</b>
body:
There have been several times throughout the series when they have nearly come right out and said that the Oath Rod is the key (e.g. all of those things that other people said)...and then...There have been several times throughout the series when they have nearly come right out and said that the Oath Rod is NOT the key (e.g. the Accepted Test and the 80 year old accepted with an ageless face)


created: 2002-09-09 10:05:38
subject: <b>The Accepted Ter'angreal</b>
body:
There's only one flaw in your theory proving that the oath rods don't provide the agelessness Aes Sedai get.  We don't know exactly how the ter'angreal works, whether it's a portal into an alternative weaving or whether it's a portal into the World of Dreams, which feeds off of the mind of the person being &quot;tested&quot;.  <br /><br />Egwene couldn't have known that users of the One Power didn't achieve an ageless look unless associated with the White Tower, which requries Accepted raised to the shawl to swear on the Oath Rod.  So, the ter'angreal could be feeding off of Egwene's past experiences with users of the One Power.  So it's possible that this passage doesn't disprove the theory that agelessness is caused by use of the Oath Rod...


created: 2002-11-11 18:32:52
subject: <b>I thought this was covered...</b>
body:
Of course it's the Oath Rod. It causes the ageless look and the shorter lifespan. Semirhage said it. The Sniffers figured it out. <br />Amys always had white hair. She just looks young.<br />The 80 year old accepted didn't have the ageless face. She just looked young. That was the whole point of the conversation about her.<br />Damane, Kin, AOL channellers and Wise Ones age slowly.<br />Aol channelling criminals, and modern Aes Sedai, who &quot;bind themselves like criminals&quot; (...with a BINDER, aka OATH ROD) live shorter lives and are marked with the ageless look.<br />It's all straight out of the books. Who is still fighting it?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;You seem a decent fellow... I'd hate to kill you.&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-04 18:06:49
subject: <b>Wrong...</b>
body:
I believe that the Ter'angreal that the novices use to test to become Accepted, leads to a form of the dreamworld( i dont want to type the T word), and i think that what the persn believes when they walk in it will become reality, it just happens to be your worst nightmare because when the sisters tested it,some died and some had been burned out, so sure, they were scared when testing it and their fears came true. The reason that Egwene went in and had the face without the oath rod was because she believed that the face came from the use of the power, because so many sisters had told her that. If they had said that the when you were raised to a sister that you were branded on the right ass cheek with the ancient Aes Sedai symbol, egwene would have been there with a black and white symbol burned on her right ass cheek.<br />Just a little bit for all of you to chew on.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Disney Monkey extraordinaire!</font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-19 02:04:51
subject: <b>Have any of you read the books?</b>
body:
One of the times where RJ describes taking an oath on a rod of dominion, is where Galina, the captive Aes Sedai of Sevanna has to swear to obey Sevanna on an oath rod.  And I'm quoting:  &quot;Galina felt the oath settle on her, as if she suddenly wore a garment that covered her far too tightly from her scalp to the soles of her feet.&quot;  And to me that would explain why it gives them the ageless look, because the oath is keeping their skin tight on their faces, as it covers their entire body, but their face is where you can really tell the difference.  And that could also be why newer Aes Sedai don't have the ageless look, it hasn't been long enough for the skin on their face to adjust to the oath.  And besides, why would channeling the Power have anything to do with how your face appeared?  It's not like they're channeling into their face to make it ageless, even if it's possible.  Well, I suppose they could, but then the new Aes Sedai should aquire the look alot faster.  So I would have to disagree with this theory.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;There are only two things that are infinite:  The universe, and the stupidity of humans.&quot;<br />     -Albert Einstein</font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-10 21:58:10
subject: <b>I disagree</b>
body:
if the test reflects the testees greatest fears, could it not then also reflect what they believe? I would contest that Egwene saw the ageless face in the mirror because she believed that it was simply part of being Aes Sedai, and had no reason to connect it with the Oath Rod.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">They ran through the trees, and they ran through the forests,<br />They ran through the bushes where the beavers wouldn't go.<br />They ran so fast they forgot to take their culture,<br />Down the Mississippi to the Gulf of Mexico...o...o<br />-The War of 1812</font><p></p>


created: 2004-12-31 00:12:39
subject: <b>Quote about the oldest Accepted</b>
body:
OK, this quote is from aCoS, The Kin, pages 450 and 451<br /><br />This is from Nynaeves point of view, it starts off with Elayne talking to Nynaeve.<br /><br />&quot;Forget clothes for one moment, Nynaeve. Who is the oldest Accepted you remember?&quot;<br />She gave Elayne a very level look. The woman made it sound as if she never thought of anything else! And she had too listened. Sometimes. &quot;Elin Warrel, I think. She's about my age, I think. (some clothey stuff which is really out of place considering Nynaeve...)<br />Elayne barked such a laugh that Nynaeve wondered whether she had spoken aloud. Coloring fiercly, she tried to explain - she was sure she could, by Bel Tine = but the other woman gave her no opportunity for a word. &quot;Elin's sister came to visist her just before you first arrived at the Tower, Nynaeve. Her younger sister. The woman had grey hair. Well, some of it was. She must have been over forty, Nynaeve.<br />Elin Warrel was past forty? But...! &quot;What are you saying, Elayne?&quot;<br />No one was close enough to listen, and no one seemed to be giving them a second glance except the hopeful seamstress, but Elayne lowered her voice to a whisper. &quot;We slow, Nynaeve. Somewhere between twenty and twenty-five, we begin aging more slowly. How much depends upon how strong we are, but when doesn't. Takima said she thought it was the beginning of the ageless look, though I don't think anyone has ever reached that until they've worn the shall at least a year or two, sometimes five or more. Think. You know any sister with gray hair is old, even if you aren't supposed to mention it. So if Reanne slowed, and she must have, how old is she?&quot;<br /><br /><br />Sorry for that amazingly long quote, and i even cut quite a boring bit out, but it says it there. There is an Accepted - who has thus gone through the rings - who appears about Nynaeve's age even although she has a younger sister with gray hair who is at least forty. Elayne then tells us why, and actually says that to her knowledge noone has obtained that ageless face until they have worn the shawl and therefore - until Egwene, Theodrin, Faolain, Nynaeve and Elayne herself - held the Oath Rod and sworn the Three Oaths.<br /><br />Just my little piece of information and opinion. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />


created: 2004-12-31 00:19:05
subject: <b>Something I missed</b>
body:
Also, Taim and Logain dont have the ageless face and theyve channeled too. Rand doesn't either. And, as has been stated before, neither do the Wise Ones, nor the Windfinders, nor the Kin. Remember, some of the Kin were accepted who ran away, and as far as we can tell, none of them had the ageless features.<br /><br />Well, my rant is done....


created: 2005-05-01 01:58:46
subject: <b>Ignorance</b>
body:
Egwene didn't know what caused the agelessness. The ter'angreal gave her fears but not truth. The only reason she saw the agelessness was because she thought that all Aes Sedai had it.


created: 2007-11-15 13:08:51
subject: <b>Rod=Agelessness</b>
body:
From quotes that others have posted it's obvious that the rod causes the ageless look. It is also obvious to ME, at least, that the Accepted Rings contain more than knowledge from the person entering, i.e. the 13 Myrdaal quote. There are still other possiblities you just have to think hard. She could have been using the Mask of Mirrors and had tied off an inverted weave.


created: 2008-04-09 03:59:03
subject: <b>What if it is something else entirely?</b>
body:
I think it may have something to do with the way in which they deside who has seniority. <br /><br />In the kin, the oldest person is the leader. There it is your years rather than your strength in the power that desides your position in the organisation. You should also note that they do not have a problem with dicusing their age. <br /><br />Aes Sedai decide seniority by strength in the power. It does not matter how old one is or how long they have worn the shawl, if someone else is stronger in the power, they are automatically the leader. It is also unheard of to ask an Aes Sedai her age, this is something that knowbody knows, thus they are ageless. <br /><br />Novices and Accepted note that they begin to slow, as all channelers does, but they only take on the ageless look one they have worn the shawl for a period of time, and have thus been exposed to the &quot;ageless&quot; factor of Aes Sedai society for a while.  <br /><br />Well, that's what I think.


created: 2001-04-14 00:00:00
subject: <b>Disagree</b>
body:
I have read and re-read (and on) all the books and not one time I have I actually read where someone said that the wise ones had an ageless face.... they all looked younger than they were, but not ageless...  I believe that slowing accounts for ALL channellers looking younger, but the ageless face comes from the binding of the oath rod (it tightens the skin onto the body, ie. galina in tpod)<p>Only Aes Sedai are referred to as ageless (ie, can't put any age to them) they are not considered young looking, just ageless and it only happens after they have worn the shawl for a period of time (ie, after the oaths).. that would explain why leane and siuan NO LONGER have the ageless faces (they were unbound)</p>


created: 2001-11-30 02:20:43
subject: <b>agelessness and the rings</b>
body:
I agree with the thinking on the rings adn the agelessness the wise ones have as well as the aes sedai.  Now as far as the comment about the kin that may have gone through the rings, in all likelyhood they never completed the ritual wit the rings so therefore didn't achieve the agelessness.  Just my thoughts.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">~~Nikikins~~<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /> &quot;It's not having what you want, it's wanting what you got.&quot;  Sheryl Crow</font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-04 01:44:57
subject: <b>Although this sounds appealing it doesn't work</b>
body:
Nynaeve's face started &quot;slowing&quot; before she went into the rings (the reason why she is always considered young) and one of the Forsaken refers to it at one point as &quot;the slowing&quot; (I think).  It is probably more likely that since the One Power is outside the Age Lace, and therefore time, contact with it takes you out of reality for a moment, slowing the effects of the wheel itself on you.  Since the Kin don't channel very often or in any great amounts this suggests why they are less affected by it (it could also be mistaken as the grandmotherly look some of them have) and well, the sea folk are anyone's guess.


created: 2002-05-01 22:00:26
subject: <b>Agelessness</b>
body:
This theory doesnt work because even some of the Kin have been through the ter'angreal and then didn't make the test for the shawl. They still do not have the ageless look. I don't think I have ever seen in any of the books where it refers to the Wise Ones as having the look either. It is just said that they have a commanding look or something along those lines..It just doesnt seem to fit together.


created: 2002-10-29 21:56:37
subject: <b>Duh!</b>
body:
Here's the quotation: TGH, chapter 28, p409 paperback<br /><br />&quot;[To Verin] But you have the look of those who have made the journey to Rhuidean and survived.&quot;  Duh!<br /><br />Agelessness is different from slowing.  All channelers slow.  Those who have been through the ring ter'angreal successfully (thus discounting the Kin from Agelessness) have an Ageless loook to them.  It is an excellent theory, which I was going to submit until I saw it already here.  It explains everything we know about this mystery, and leaves the Oath Rod to the life span question.  Can't anyone else see that this theory is utterly correct?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Bob L. Sedai (a.k.a. Luge) <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /><br />Fighting off the Taint - <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tinfoilhat.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" />Thanks given to Burr, the ever-helpful theory critic<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />And to Light in the Night, fellow theorist extraordinaire<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Voted Best Screenname 1 (one) years in a row.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-11-11 18:58:57
subject: <b>No Duh!</b>
body:
The Aiel speaking to Verin, who has gray hair, but a face of indeterminate age, just means that she hasn't aged normally, like the Wise Ones. The Wise Ones don't have the ageless look.<br /><br />As far as the rings theory, no.<br /><br />First, when you take the Oaths, you feel your skin tighten! That should be your first clue. Second, the 80 year old Accepted, who has been through the rings, just looks young, not ageless. And some of the Kin have been through the rings, but aren't ageless, either.<br /><br />And lets not forget Semirhage, who straight out tells us that the Oath Rod, or binder, both shortens your life and changes your appearance.<br /><br />This is all straight from the books. No theory involved.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;You seem a decent fellow... I'd hate to kill you.&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-16 20:39:52
subject: <b>Not sure....</b>
body:
IF it is the rings though, Why don't accepted also have the ageless look? Although, if what i just sais is true, I wonder why the Kin, Windfinders, and forsaken don't have the ageless look. Maybe the forsaken do, and maybe they don't. I don't recall any descriptions on how old the forsaken look.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Semirhage91</font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-18 00:53:48
subject: <b>Sumeko</b>
body:
I beleive that Sumeko of the kkin  broke down during her test for the shawl and she does not have the ageless look.. THEREFORE it can't be the rings that cause agelessness....<br />just a thought


created: 2001-04-26 00:00:00
subject: <b>Where was it said?</b>
body:
Your qoute talks about slowing (looking young for your age) and living a long time becuase of the slowing.  However, with the slowing you can pick an age you think a person is, regardless of the fact that it is wrong becuase of the slowing affect.  Agelessness on the other hand doesn't even allow you to pick a single wrong answer, the age you would pick would be different minute to minute.  Therefore, were is it said that Windfinders don't slow and that Wise Ones have the ageless look.  All the info I have seen on the Wise Ones seems to indicate that they slow without gaining agelessness.


created: 2001-05-30 09:27:28
subject: <b>Windfinders - Slowing vs agelessness</b>
body:
Windfinders do indeed slow. There is at least one example of a pair of Sea Folk sisters, one the one the Sailmistress of a ship, the other the Windfinder. The Windfinder looks decidely younger, and yet it turns out she is significantly older than the Sailmistress.<br /><br />Slowing is not agelessness, and agelessness comes from the Oath Rod.<br /><br />The Forsaken do not look ageless, but they have slowed. Mesaana, in an internal POV, mentions having been over three hundred years old when bound at the Bore, and being considered just into her middle years. NOT ageless.<br /><br />It's the Rod.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> Call_me_Tim <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> Call me Tim <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-18 16:07:06
subject: <b>Hmmm...</b>
body:
You have to keep in mind that the Forsaken can make themselves look any way they wish.  Remember Lanfear as Keille Shaogi in the Waste?  Offhand I couldn't say for sure if the Oaths taken to the Shadow would offer agelessness as a side effect, but I would have to guess no.  The Kin have not taken the Oaths in the White Tower, and despite their unprescedented ages, I remember no mention of any of them having the ageless look.  I would have to surmise that only taking the Oaths gives a channeler the agelessness, not the act of channeling itself.  Even the quote cited only mentions slowing, not acheiving agelessness.  When I am forty I hope to look thirty because I stay out of the sun.  Does that make me ageless?  No...I have simply slowed the effects of aging by staying out of the sun.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />  Erith  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />The higher, the fewer.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-04 07:25:07
subject: <b>The White Tower</b>
body:
Of those who channel, only Aes Sedai show agelessness. There for it must be something unique to them. Whether or not it&#8217;s the oath rod is debatable. Why don&#8217;t we just say the White Tower is responsible until the creator enlightens us.


created: 2002-06-09 22:12:57
subject: <b>The Kin</b>
body:
Don't forget that it is also mentioned that the Kin are much older than any living Aes Sedai, and it was hinted that it has to do with the Three Oaths. Since they have never taken the Oaths it is hinted that the Oaths some how have an effect on both the agelessness look and the shorter lifespans of the Aes Sedai.


created: 2003-02-03 02:34:54
subject: <b>Aes Sedai - agelessness</b>
body:
i think the answer to that riddle is very simple. only Aes Sedai get the ageless look. the only thing that differs them from other channeling women is the Oath Rod. i think the rod holds the key to both the ageless look and the shortened lifespan compared to other channeling women.


created: 2003-03-04 00:07:26
subject: <b>wotmania response</b>
body:
I don't think he is talking about AS noticing the ageless look of veteran WF, but the average person who knows the look of an AS. We know for a fact that AS are denied passage as a rule. This must be for the reasons you stated, that any woman can sense another woman who can channel.


created: 2001-04-14 00:00:00
subject: <b>Disagree (again)</b>
body:
It seems that my only posts (2 so far <img src="images/smile.gif" /> are to disagree, I would like to disagree with wotmania and not the post... I don't think that the oath rod (and binders) are the Nine Rods Of Dominion (captilization books) because of the numbering sequence. Sevana's oath rod is 111 alot higher than nine and semirhage never said that Lew Therin would bind her, just the hall....


created: 2001-06-04 16:07:37
subject: <b>no no no</b>
body:
The number III I took as being Roman numerals, or the WoT equivalent.  Besides, Sammael could easily have been lying when he said it only worked on women.  If he told them it worked on men, maybe they would get a chance to use it on Rand, which would both mess up the DO's plan and Sammael's revenge, neither of which Sammael wants to do


created: 2001-07-03 15:33:28
subject: <b>Terribly disappointing</b>
body:
I would be very disapointed it the Nine Rods of Dominion are just Binder's.<br />The oath rods, if you look at it, are simply Ter'angreal programs to use compulsion to make someone keep their 'oath'.  Any moderately strong person from the AOL could do the same thing only easier.  On the Oath rod the person/victim has to physically say the oath, it the antagonist catches his victim unaware with compulsion he can simple dictate the terms, the victim does not have to give-in and say the words.<br />One of LTT greatest titles is the (not sure on first word) &quot;Master of the Nine Rods of Dominion&quot;.  First off if the all did the same thing why would there be nine of them and why would he control all of them?  Second off, if they were just oath rods (ter'angreal for compulsion) what would be the big deal?  It's something he could do by himself, why would he laud it as a great Title?  Unless you said they amplify compulsion.  Well then, normal compulsion can already be made strong enough to kill, so the only significant way to amplify it would be to make it affect masses of people at one time.  But that doesn't fly either, b/c in the AOL they would never make such a device which could only be used for wicked purposes (the predate the bore).<br /><br />As far as I can tell the only proof for the Oath Rods being the Rod's of Dominion are that both are called... rods.  Which is hardly convincing proof.  <br /><br />This of course leads to the question what are those stinking Nine Rods?<br />1.  Theory One:  Rods in the AoL (like other cultures) were symbols of authority or power.  They could have simply been the symbol of office of the Aes Sedi ruling counsel.  LTT as the Leader would have had one, and would have been the master of the other Eight held by the others on the counsel.  The rods may or MAY NOT have had any power themselves.  They might not have been Ter'angreal, angeral, or san'angreal.  They might have just been symbol's.  Of course they easily could have been nice bigh juicy San'angreal's too.  And honestly I would be diappointed if RJ made that big a deal of them and the turn out just be be symbols (the equivalent of a crown, or septer), or worse yet if he just never explains them.<br />2 Theory Two.  It they weren't symbols of the counsel it seems that for LTT to be the Master of them he must have had all of them at his disposal.  The were his while in office and theri use was his responsibility.  Therefore we must conclude that they all have different uses/abilities.  Why have Nine of them if the all do the same thing?  This means that they have to be Ter'angreal and not Angreal or San'angreal as they all have but one use.  Now, what do these Nine Ter'angreal do?  Not the foggiest, except... they most likely have little or nothing to do with war since they where never mentioned being used in the War of the Power/Shadow.<br /><br />3 Theory 3.  The only remaining posibility I see is that These &quot;Nine&quot; Rods of Dominion are actually &quot;One&quot; object.  The rods are part of one 'thing', this would bypass the requirement for them having 9 differnet functions.  This means they/IT could have been A San'Angreal.  Which since LTT was just an elected leader and the Rods stayed with the post, it would have to be able to be used by both sexes.  A rare but I believe not unheard of thing.  However we still have the catch of why didn't we here of IT being used in the War of Power/Shadow?  We hear of the Callandor being used, so it stands to reason that if another great San'angreal was in existance and available to LTT it would have been used and we would have heard of it.<br /><br />Geeze that was long, anybody make it all the way through? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-07-04 14:38:42
subject: <b>The Numbers Lend Support</b>
body:
I want to point out the numbers. The Oath Rod in the tower is numbered three. The oath rod Sevana has is numbered twenty-seven. Unless they were numbered in multiples, there's definately more than nine. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-07-17 16:03:44
subject: <b>All binders aren't rods.</b>
body:
I seem to remember that either in tFOH or LOC, there was a discussion of having someone sit in a chair of binding.. I will look it up but i believe that the chair only worked on men, so maybe the oath rod is a binder that would only work on women.  More to be added after i research this....


created: 2001-08-28 13:31:14
subject: <b>Hmm.</b>
body:
I suspect the Nine Rods of Dominion are purely ceremonial, perhaps symbolic of LTT's command of Aes Sedai. Similarly, in Lord of the Rings, Saruman, head of the order of Istari (wizards) accuses Gandalf of plotting to gain dominion, saying that he seeks to hold the Five Rods of the Wizards. Rods or staves have often been used as symbols of authority, particularly by the head of a family.


created: 2002-11-13 00:18:37
subject: <b>they cant be</b>
body:
if the nine rods of dominion were oath rods then why would the forsaken refer to them as binders and not rods of dominion? and if they were and they sound important why would sameal give one to sevanna? so the only conection is the word rods and that was the name given to the binders by ais sedai that didnt even know what they did well enough to know they were intended for criminals so it almost should go without saying that the oath rod aand the rods of dominion are not even close to the same.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /> ITS TIME TO TOSS THE DICE <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Seine sovya caba'donde ain dovienya<br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-11-06 18:17:06
subject: <b>Theory is wrong</b>
body:
If you think that the oath rod is what causes agelessness but you say she hasn't held the oath rod yet why would she say she has the ageless look??? Unless your saying that because someday she could possibly hold the oath rod she becomes agless. But then that would affect the kin and all other channerlers and people.


created: 2001-04-14 00:00:00
subject: <b>Agree <img src="images/smile.gif" /></b>
body:
Joyia (the black sister in tear) was stilled and she appeared "young looking"... ie, her 'black oaths' were not in affect anymore... more concrete evidence that the oath rods cause agelessness


created: 2001-04-26 00:00:00
subject: <b>I agree but</b>
body:
you cannot say that Suaine (sp?)  Leane or that black sister provide evidence about the Oath Rod.  They were stilled, which breaks the oath but also cuts off their link to the source.  Therefore it could still be the link to the source that causes agelessness.  Need to find a character that unbinds themselves from the Oaths but remains connected to the source and see if lose agelessness eventually, or need to keep tabs on those that were Healed of stilling and see if they regain agelessness before reswearing the oaths (which could take time, considering the only two examples are both much weaker in the power, if that makes a difference)


created: 2001-05-30 09:57:16
subject: <b>RE: I agree but...</b>
body:
Siuan, Leane, and Joyia all gained a youthful look upon stilling. Siuan and Leane retain the youthful look after being Healed and are once again able to channel. It wasn't loss of the Power, but separation of the Oaths that removed the ageless look.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> Call_me_Tim <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> Call me Tim <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-17 23:16:12
subject: <b>Yall are wrong</b>
body:
It`s as simple as this. When a woman uses the One Power for a long enough time she reaches a point in her life known as the slowing or something. her aging slows drasticaly. That is why the KIN can be over 600 years old, and bearly have grey. When Suian And Leane were stilled it severed their connection to the one power. Most women begin slowing at age 20 or so. When they lost that link, so did they lose every effect of the power, oaths included. This lack reset their ages to when the slowing began. when they regained the link to the one power it is an artificial link. Thus, all effects must start over. The slowing occurs with prolonged use of the One Power. new link, new use, they have to restart their use in order to regain the look.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Lugh of the Vanth<br />Prince of Coolavin<br />Lord of the Darmods<br /><br />&quot;If you must mount the gallows, give a jest to the crowd, a coin to the hangman, and make the drop with a smile on your lips.&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-18 10:33:46
subject: <b>I doubt it</b>
body:
Because the Kin, in their younger years, had Slowed.  The only reason many of them look old now is the fact that they are so damnably old (old enough to make Aes Sedai recoil in surprise anyway).  *shrugs* It's just the nature of the power is my guess...being the driving force of time itself, why shouldn't it also sustain it's vessels?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>Hi!  I'm Mat!  I'm just like Mat from the WoT...except I don't have that hat, medallion, sword-spear, and I can't speak the old tongue...although I did dance with one of the Forsaken once...</i><br /><br />-Mat <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-09 01:44:53
subject: <b>EXactly!</b>
body:
I agree with this theroy totally.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I am cool, are you? <br /><br />The kicker of the seals <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <br />The flame that burned down Tar Valon <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />My arse is the Amyrlin Seat</font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-08 23:01:24
subject: <b>Maybe, but...</b>
body:
I think this is a good idea, considering that there are probably other side effects of the Oath Rod besides lowering life expectancy.  But as someone else's comments say, the Kin in Ebou Dar slow w/out the Oath Rod.  Since we've decided that Egwene's experiences in the Arches are based on her experiences, perhaps she has not yet had the experience of meeting a person who was just recently stilled.  Therefore, she would not know whether or not a stilled person loses the ageless look, and just goes with what she unconsiously thinks is what happens.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Dan Asha'man</font><p></p>


created: 2002-12-19 13:33:16
subject: <b>But...</b>
body:
But Aiel Wise Ones have the ageless look, if not as pronounced as Aes Sedai, and this is probably because they don't use the Power as much.


created: 2003-01-17 13:31:12
subject: <b>It IS the Oath Rod</b>
body:
I am not sure what book it was in (one of the earlier ones) but Moghedian (SP) or one of the other forsaken is talking about the fact that they had been found out in the age of Legends as a Dark Friend.  And that they had been offered a chance to swear on a Binder.  The comment was something like &quot;How could they expect her to swear on the Binder, MARKED so that everyone could see her crime, and have to watch as death approached her&quot;.  I am not trying to quote but the idea is the same.  She indicated that the oath rod marks you a criminal so that everyone who looked at you will know that you had commited a crime.  The ageless look is that Mark.  Kinda like in the old days when they would tatoo those who were marked for death.


created: 2002-02-26 14:09:55
subject: <b>Number on the Oath Rod</b>
body:
I agree with everything in your post, with one exception.  Remember that the Oath rods were created during the age of legends, when people spoke a different language.  Could it be that the numbers on the Oath Rods/binders were different in the age of legends?  For example, in the Roman times, &quot;I&quot; was one, while now it means something else.  So it could be that the numbers were different back then.


created: 2002-06-26 11:23:34
subject: <b>Numerical Systems</b>
body:
Sure, the Romans represented three by the characters III. But you have to consider the other Oath Rod that we know of (the one in the WT) is numbered 3. <br /><br />If one Rod uses the common number system (in so far that everyone can tell it is 3) why would the other one use a different one. <br /><br />Just my thoughts.


created: 2002-08-22 13:04:40
subject: <b>But how do you explain...</b>
body:
the &quot;ageless&quot; look. If the 'facelift' effect does occur, like Dick Clark, all Aes Sedai would look young (we know Dick Clark as been around a long time, so we think of him as old, but if you didn't know who Dick Clark was, you would simply think of him being in his mid 30's or early 40's if you met him on the street, he certainly doesn't look &quot;ageless&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> So how exactly does a 'facelift' which causes someone to have smooth skin, also cause them to look older so that you can't put an age to them?


created: 2004-04-23 22:22:42
subject: <b>Not The Number 111!!! The number III!!!!</b>
body:
I beleive that the number is not one hundred and eleven, but rather a &quot;Roman&quot; numeral 3 (III, not 111).  I beleive it is indeed Rod of Dominion #3.


created: 2002-01-28 15:36:18
subject: <b>RE: Maybe Not...</b>
body:
I don't understand that. This quote clearly states that it is the raising to full Aes Sedai that makes them look ageless. If it had been the channeling, the critical time would have been the time the yong Aes Sedai stared training as a novice. This means it is something within the test for full Aes Sedai that creates the ageless look. <br /><br />We don't know much about that ceremony/test, except that they swear oath on the oath rod, and that there is some kind of channeling test. This gives us two candidates for the ageless look. The oath rod, which is supported by some other clues, or someting else that happens during the ceremony. This could explain the claim that the AS of the AoL also had the ageless look: The current AS have kept some part of the original ceremonies!<br /><br />Proxima


created: 2002-03-02 10:34:43
subject: <b>re: maybe not...</b>
body:
it's a little bit of both i think... there's the agelessness that ppl observe that comes from extended use of the power when they normally would have grown old... and then there's the effect that folks in randland are equating with agelessness thats actually the result of the &quot;extra&quot; agelessness that comes from the oath rod...<br /><br />for those of you who haven't read the WoT guide it states that semirhage turned to the dark because she was busted for being the sadistic bitch that she is and the only choice she was left with was being bound away from &quot;her only true pleasure&quot; and that she couldn't deal with the visible stigma of her punishment...<br /><br />also in another book, one of the forsaken, im fairly sure it was semirhage when she was interrogating cabriana mercandes, that she mused in her pov that she couldn't understand why today's AS would allow themselves to be marked in such a way...<br /><br />the oath rod was punishment in the AoL... very serious punishment, since not only does it decrease lifespan of a channeler but it was also the only way to control channelers in the terms of assuring that they were not breaking whatever law they kept breaking...<br /><br />after the breaking the AS that came together to build the tower took the three oaths as a result of the utter cluster-f**k that came from AS turning against each other in the war of power... 1) it was the deceit between AS that led to such a destructive conflict, &quot;no more lying&quot; 2) big weapons that didn't require a channeler was a big problem &quot;no more weapons made with power&quot; 3) and of course we can't have channeler's runnin around attacking each other &quot;no more killin unless in defense&quot;...<br /><br />these AS accepted the reduced longevity and the &quot;mark&quot; of the oath rod as a self-imposed punishment in order to reduce the possibility of another breaking... afterall these women had just personally witnessed the near destruction off the entire human race because of a relatively small group of power seekers bent on domination...<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />


created: 2001-04-02 00:00:00
subject: <b>What the number means</b>
body:
Perhaps it refers to which Circuit Court used the rod in the AoL? Instead of swearing on a bible, they would swear on the Oath Rod...


created: 2001-10-07 16:04:33
subject: <b>Could mean anything</b>
body:
I could simply refer to the number of oath rods created. The one in the tower was the third made, the one Sevanna has could be the 125th (I believe that's the number). These numbers really could mean anything. We can only guess. I agree about the Rods of Dominion not all being oath rods, though. It seems superfluous, and a misnomer if that's the case. We've all seen how the truth can be twisted. Oath rods do not alone seem sufficient for domination. The distinction between binding rods and oath rods is not one I understand. They both bind a person to tell the truth, so there is no diffeence in my book. It's like using a synonym. We'd all be bored to tears if Jordan wrote &quot;oath rod&quot; everytime he tried to refer to the function or effect of swearing on one. Likewise, &quot;the oath rod&quot; might simply be the way Aes Sedai refer to the one that they possess, believing it to be unique in their era.


created: 2002-05-02 00:48:26
subject: <b>numbers</b>
body:
uh, maybe there was guilds or something, and each person who made ter'angreal had their own number? but they forgot or dodn't bother once the wars started.... i dunno really. new here so if i post  alot people will know me. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Seeking Aes Sedai for Bondage... uhh bonding. <br /><br />We rode on the winds of the rising storm,<br />We ran to the sounds of the thunder,<br />We danced among the lightning bolts,<br />and tore the world asunder.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-25 20:47:27
subject: <b>But...</b>
body:
But balefire wasnt discovered until during the war of Power, how would one of the nine rods be able to shoot balefire if they hadnt discovered it yet? I think it was just a weapon made for people wheo couldnt make the balefire weave.<br /><br />But i agree about the nine rods not all being oath rods, good work!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">The Wotmaniac currntly known as &quot;Taint Bearer&quot;<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <i>If you ever catch on fire, try to avoid looking in a mirror, because I bet that will really throw you into a panic.</i> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Came in 13th place in the Wotmania Hunt 2005 with 3790 points!<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-04-26 00:00:00
subject: <b>Rand confused?</b>
body:
Is it possible Rand was just confused.  The very fact that he used the term youthfulness (whatever exact word was)  shows that he is able to attempt to pin an age on the Wise One.  The point about agelessness is that you can't call them youthful or old or anything becuase you simply can't tell.  I think Rand just confused the two and thought youthful for age = AS agelessness even if it really didn't.  Remember, at this point in the series Rand has not been around many non-AS channelers (Egw and Nyn dont count becuase neither have channeled for the years and years that Moraine and the Wise Ones have)


created: 2001-07-17 14:32:22
subject: <b>Slowing!</b>
body:
Both male and female channelers slow, which could be what Rand sees in the WO's, whilst agelessness and a shortening of the lifespan could be due to the Oath Rod


created: 2001-08-08 13:01:23
subject: <b>Several problems with your theory</b>
body:
First off it's before they enter Rhuidien.  Second it's Egwene's thoughts not Rand's.  And third the actual quote is &quot;Suddenly Amys's youthfully smooth features beneath that white hair leaped out at her for what they were, something <i> very close </i> (emphasis mine) to Aes Sedai agelessness.&quot; <br /><br />The agelessness feature is denfinately caused by the Oath Rod, you'll notice that none of the Kin or Seafolk are described as being ageless.  As well as the one Accepted who is 50 but still doesn't have the ageless look.<br /><br />Jim<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sir Jim<br />Lord of Minutia&#8482;<br />King of WoT MB Posts&#8482;<br /><br />Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-22 00:13:50
subject: <b>Wise Ones do have the ageless look...</b>
body:
I recently re-read the Eye of the World, and I seem to remember something about the first Aiel (Urien) that we meet.  He recognizes Verin for what she is right away because he says that she has the &quot;same look&quot; as their Wise Ones.  I think that this means the Wise Ones DO have the ageless look, at least to some extent, anyway...


created: 2001-12-01 09:01:43
subject: <b>Not sure.....</b>
body:
Yeah..... that would explain why the ageless look comes with time.... but why aren't the Kin ageless?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" /> I am Nynaeve <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Aes Sedai of the Asylum Ajah <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" /> The Ring of the Malkieri Kings <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /> Narg lives! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" /> Dammit my eye's on fire! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-14 00:12:11
subject: <b>The Wise Ones dont have an oath rod....</b>
body:
But they do have Rhuidean. Maybe there is some connection?<br /><br />Just a thought.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />Shorty, Pastor of Muppets<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Embiggens is a perfectly cromulent word.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />I bet Einstein turned himself all sorts of colors before he invented the light bulb.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/oh.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />PS: I'm sexy. Really. Really really sexy.<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-11-11 19:09:13
subject: <b>Wow. All wrong!</b>
body:
Just reverse each of your ideas, and you'll be right on track!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;You seem a decent fellow... I'd hate to kill you.&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-11 15:48:50
subject: <b>Asmodean</b>
body:
There is in wome book about the fight between Asmodean and Rand. Rand cut some black string from Asmodeant to somewhere. Asmodean tell that protect him from the madness.<br />Sorry for my english it isnt my firs language


created: 2001-06-17 11:52:51
subject: <b>lol!</b>
body:
how come every1 are against it?<br />we all know that nynaeve has a bit of the ageless aes sedai face...and she hadn't sworn yet!<br />besides we have seen that the wiseones has a bit of that 2...and teh kins...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">A very very wise man once sai &quot;i dunno go ask a woman!'<br /><br />life without WoT is like a broken pencel!<br />POINTLESS!<br /><br />am i here<br />maybe i'm there<br />i can be everywhere!<br />but here, where here is for thy<br />I sure not<br />but I might be there...<br /><br />use thy brai</font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-26 06:12:30
subject: <b>nyaneve has not got the ageless look</b>
body:
just so that this is clear...<br />Nynaeve has not got even the beginning of the Ageless look, she has begun slowing, which is a completely different matter. And the wise ones do not look ageless, they just look younger than they are. Sorelia has wrinkles!<br />AS for the Aes Sedai Rand sees in the construction of Rhuiedan, that is a long time after the breaking, and the Aes Sedai probably started swearing just after the WoP<br />Otherwise I just tend to believe RJ did another mistake, if he wrote that the Aes Sedai in the AoL had ageless faces.<br />I remember reading that one of the Forsaken think that they bind themselves like criminales (I think it was Semirhage of Moridin), and the only obvious way she could have known that was by seeing the ageless look,<br />So, I think you are wrong <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> <font color="a52a2a">Magnus Alexander corpore parvus erat </font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <font color="b8860b">Dissenting voice of wotmania</font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <br /><font color="6495ed">Frightfully stubborn pacifist</font> <br /><br /><i><font color="669900"> Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent</font></i></font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-23 16:56:53
subject: <b>is it not obvious?</b>
body:
This is what I firmly believe:<br /><br />All Aes Sedai gain the ageless look after channeling the Power for many many years. As for living a long time, I think that every person who can channel at all is born with a very long lifespan, lengthened by actually practicing channeling the Power.<br /><br />I do think that the Oath Rod shortens your life, which is why both the Kin and Aes Sedai live a long time but the Kin lives longer. Another speculation: when Cadsuane is first introduced into the series, it is noted several times how very old she is and how everyone had assumed she was dead. Is it possible that Cadsuane did not swear by the Rod?<br /><br />My six cents,<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Alanna Sedai, White Ajah<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-12-17 16:09:36
subject: <b>A question then?</b>
body:
If it is channeling the Power that gives the Ageless look, then...  why don't the Forsaken all look Ageless????????????<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sigone Sedai <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-19 02:20:03
subject: <b>Have any of you read the books?</b>
body:
The Forsaken aren't ageless.  They have been channeling for hundreds of years, and they still don't have the look.  Wise ones don't have the look.  Windfinders don't have the look.  Damane don't have the look.  In one part of the story, RJ points out an Aes Sedai with the ageless look, and then points at a damane who is 600 years old and doesn't look ageless at all.  Throughout the book, RJ points out the difference between ageless and just looking yourger than you really are.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;There are only two things that are infinite:  The universe, and the stupidity of humans.&quot;<br />     -Albert Einstein</font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-19 18:24:40
subject: <b>Nonesense</b>
body:
Not only do Damane live longer and not have the ageless look, but when Egwene is with the Wise Ones they mention that a wise one was over 400 years old. Mesaana mentions somewhere that she was 600 and was middle-aged. And she didn't have the ageless look.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" /> Elvish <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" /> Warder under the light<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br />Librarian extraordinaire<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br />Proud defender of Freedom and Liberty<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-03-04 00:27:19
subject: <b>forsaken not immortal</b>
body:
The forsaken while very long lived are not necisarily immortal. They were sealed outside of time when LTT made the seal on the bore. Those closer to surface suffered the effects of aging ever if slowly. So their souls may be eternal but their bodies are not and would show the effects of aging or agelessness if it was aplicable to them.


created: 2001-06-20 13:51:09
subject: <b>Elaynes Rod...</b>
body:
Remember Elaynes Rod? When she channeled fire into it, she woke up  with out a memory of what happened?<br />( Obviously from what Ive read in the books and Theories, she got on a table and danced naked..)<br />Maybe one of the 9 functions is total inhibition?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <b><i>Silver Ashaman</i></b> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /> <i>der'morat'homosexual</i> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> Director of Diabetics <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /> Stouthearted Stutterer <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/oh.gif" border="0" /> Organizer of Orgasms <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/oh.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> Basher of Ba'alzamon <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" /> Fade Freaker <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-18 13:03:28
subject: <b>Disagree</b>
body:
Okay, your idea may have some merit, but your 'proof' is lacking.  For one thing, you mention that even the balefire ter'angreal is one of the 9 Rods, which it couldn't be.  Balefire was not discovered until the War of Power, and the 9 Rods were in existence before that.  I have to agree with a different post about it being disappointing if the Oath Rod, or the binders, were the 9 Rods, but your idea that it may be one of the 9 types is a interesting idea.<br /><br />Torin


created: 2002-01-23 02:19:43
subject: <b>True that.</b>
body:
I believe in the theory that there were 9 DIFFERENT rods, as its something that I came up with too, as I was reading the books.<br /><br />I regards to the &quot;Balefire Rod not being one of them,&quot; need I explain to you that most ter'angreal are not used for the purpose they were designed to?<br /><br />Note: the rod is black.. its weak but black is the color of the shadow so to say.  So maybe during the War of Power, the Dark One aquired this spacific rod and transformed it.<br />Or maybe its just being used the wrong way.. it is very difficult to control none the less, remember?<br /><br />Just my two coppers


created: 2002-05-18 00:09:29
subject: <b>More rods during the war</b>
body:
Maybe there were originally only 9 rods BEFORE the War started, but more were created, as maybe only 9 was insufficient. But they kept the name for the original 9.


created: 2002-05-18 14:26:17
subject: <b>hmmm...</b>
body:
could be buuuut if there were more than one of each of the Nine Rods how come Ishmael spoke to Lews Therin as if summoning were a big deal?  Seems to me if there were so many and they were so easy to use that Ishy wouldn't have made a very big deal about it.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Dragonsworn<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> He Who Lacks a Title <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-21 23:06:03
subject: <b>umm</b>
body:
firstly i think there was only nine rods. the comment by ishy to lews seems to suggest there were only three.<br /><br />secondly, it seems strange to me that they would need nine rods to do the same thing. <br /><br />lastly i don't have anything else to say.


created: 2002-11-11 19:18:14
subject: <b>c'mon</b>
body:
Ok, for the Nine Rods of Dominion to be referred to with that much respect by the strongest of the Forsaken, they have to be somewhat unique and important.<br />To say that there were a bunch of them, and including any old binder, is like saying that there are Ten Commandments, but then including not walking on the grass, or littering, just thrown in with 'em.<br />Work with me!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;You seem a decent fellow... I'd hate to kill you.&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-20 21:03:49
subject: <b>another thought</b>
body:
the oath rod and the rod used on galina aren't the same.  The oath rod allows ways around the oath (twisting the truth and speaking what you believe to be true)<br />the rod used on galina obviously had no hole to worm through or she probably would have found it.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> RAFO <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /><br />


created: 2006-04-14 19:29:29
subject: <b>The Nine Rods</b>
body:
Here's a list of Rods that could be part of the Nine Rods of Dominion<br /><br />1. The Oath Rod in the White Tower<br />2. The &quot;binder&quot; given to Sevanna, which is just like the White Tower's Oath Rod<br />3. The Rod that produces Balefire<br />4. The Black Rod that can be used to beat people with, that Aviendha explains in KoD...it can be adjusted to feel like one blow or 100 blows<br />5. The Rod that Elayne experiments w/ on her way to Caemlyn...it reminds her of fire and then she blacks out.<br />6. The Black Rod that Asne Zeramaine used on Elayne, Sareitha, Careane, and Vandene in KoD it can be used to kill or incapcitate an enemy.<br /><br />This leaves 3 more rods to account for. They might have been glimpsed through out the series...but these are the only ones to come to my mind. Many People claim that the Tower Oath Rod and the Rod in Sevanna's possesion aren't Rods of Dominion but just simple Binder's. That could be true but the do enable some form of Dominion over someone. I also think that the Nine Rods of Dominion were used for criminals. With the worst form of punishment being killed by balefire...to have your soul and being erased from time completely and to never be reborn again. The only Rod on the list that we don't know what it does is the Rod Elayne studies on the way to Caemlyn.<br /><br />And when I was reading Fires of Heaven, Egwene makes an observation that the merchant wagons are full of ter'angreal and she says that there rods in some of the wagons...doesn't give a number...but maybe that accounts for the last 3 Rods.<br /><br />Although I remember reading about a black rod that could be bent into a circle...so maybe that is one of Rods of Dominion, or it might have been one of the rods already listed above, I'm not sure


created: 2008-03-28 13:26:15
subject: <b>why</b>
body:
does everything from the AOL have to be a great work of the power i think the nine rods of dominion were the symbols of authority


created: 2001-04-07 00:00:00
subject: <b>Re: Maybe If...</b>
body:
Hmm.. I'm just browsing through theories here, and I came across your idea of an oath rod being used to bind men channelers instead of gentling them.  Maybe that would work, but, if the man has been channeling, the taint probably had messed with his mind at least somewhat by then, if not a lot.  Prehaps this has been tried at one time in the past, and the insanity caused by the taint somehow twisted the command in the man's mind, allowing the man to channel again, despite his oath.  I dont have anything from the books to back this up, but it makes a fair ammount of sense, I think.  <br /> And another thing, maybe the Oath Rod the Tower has is designed only for female ussage?  They might need an oath rod designed for men in order to do this, as i believe an oath rod only works on someone that can channel anyway (stilled Aes Sedai are no longer held by their oaths, for example), and from what I've seen, few ter'angreal seem to work for both sides.  They are usually for Saidar, or Saidin, or both at once.  Dunno if this is correct, but just as I see it.<p></p>


created: 2001-04-14 00:00:00
subject: <b>Oath Rods and men</b>
body:
when sammeal gave the oath rod to sevanna he told her it would only work for women that channel, therefore, at least that one can't be used on men


created: 2001-04-26 00:00:00
subject: <b>Trusting aren't we?</b>
body:
trusting the word of a forsaken about the ability of the binder?  Maybe he just didn't want to give sevanna any idea's about using it on Rand herself?  I don't think she knew he (the forsaken) could channel so no worries there.


created: 2001-08-03 10:24:44
subject: <b>It isnt the gentling that kills them....</b>
body:
Assuming that the Oath Rod is one of the Nine rods of Dominion, there are probably different kinds of rods... some that works on women, some that works on men.<br /><br />And when a man is gentled, it is not the gentling that kills them, they just loses the will to live without channeling... so if you would make a man swear that he would not channel any more, he would still die after a few years.


created: 2001-08-17 04:09:29
subject: <b>well...</b>
body:
suppose the men who can channel bind themselves on the oathroad, it would be very easy to unbind them and let them channel again. i think they thought it better to gentle them instead so it will be more permanent. ok, I know they can still be healed but at least it would be more difficult cause it requires a particular talent in healing.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/thom.gif" border="0" /> Jahar Narishma <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/seanchan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/seanchan.gif" border="0" /> Ashaman Extraordinaire <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/seanchan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/thom.gif" border="0" /> BS Saidin, major in Traveling <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-12-06 09:53:39
subject: <b>Great Idea!</b>
body:
You've come up with a brilliant, humane way to effectively &quot;neuter&quot; channeling men.  However, I have a few pretty good ideas as to why the Aes Sedai themselves haven't thought of it, or at least put it into practice.<br />a) The Red Ajah is so incredibly zealous in their hatred of men--channelers or otherwise--that there is no way they would've allowed any Amyrlin to order an end to gentling.<br />b) Taking the Oath on the Rod is an important symbolic step towards becoming an Aes Sedai, or at least it has been and will be as long as the White Tower at large doesn't know of its adverse effects.  Recall how Nynaeve, Elayne, and other &quot;Aes Sedai&quot; raised without the Rod are treated: as if they are imposters, or children pretending.  Thus, the Oaths carry a heavy psychological weight for all sisters, and most would probably think making MEN who CHANNEL swear on their sacred relic would defile it, and thier order.<br /><br />This is how I think the Aes Sedai would react to such an idea, and why.  Nobody ever said they were rational, not ever the Whites.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" />Lord of the Rings was a Good Book<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gandalf.gif" border="0" />If you care for sexist, racist dreck written as only a scholar of the nineteen-fifties could<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gandalf.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-04-09 09:10:15
subject: <b>they don't use it</b>
body:
for the simple reason that it can be broken, while gentling is permanent (or used to be). Death is more permanent, like what they did in Aielmen channeler and in Seanchan. IMHO, I think the most effective way is death by balefire.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/thom.gif" border="0" /> Jahar Narishma <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/seanchan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/seanchan.gif" border="0" /> Ashaman Extraordinaire <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/seanchan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/thom.gif" border="0" /> BS Saidin, major in Traveling <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-06 20:45:32
subject: <b>The Oath Rod doesn't work on men.</b>
body:
When Sammael gives the Oath Rod to Sevanna and Galina, he also mentions that he'll have to bring them something else in order to hold Rand against his will. I believe he called it a binding chair, but the fact that he didn't suggest using the Oath Rod on al'Thor proves that it doesn't work on men.


created: 2002-05-07 09:19:31
subject: <b>How would anyone know they had sworn?</b>
body:
You have to channel a small flow of spirit into the Oath Rod to make it work. Obviously, it is easy to know that a new Aes Sedai has actually done this, because the other Aes Sedai witnessing the event would be able to see the flow. But how would anyone know that a man wasn't just pretending? Besides, the Oath Rod may only work for women channellers.<br /><br />And to those of you who trust &quot;Caddar&quot; (Sammael) for your evidence, remember how he gave Sevanna some &quot;travelling boxes&quot;: utterly useless pieces of stone that were supposed to make a gateway. He just made one himself from a hiding place the first time the &quot;travelling box&quot; was used, and left the Shaido to fend for themselves after they discovered that it was a load of crap.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">You must chop down the tallest tree in the forest with... a herring!<br /><br /><br /><font face="courier new">l(a</font><br /><br /><font face="courier new">le</font><br /><font face="courier new">af</font><br /><font face="courier new">fa</font><br /><font face="courier new">ll</font><br /><br /><font face="courier new">s)</font><br /><font face="courier new">one</font><br /><font face="courier new">l</font><br /><br /><font face="courier new">iness</font><br /><br />F<font color="#111111">a</font><font color="#222222">d</font><font color="#333333">i</font><font color="#444444">n</font><font color="#555555">g</font><font color="#666666">o</font><font color="#777777">u</font><font color="#888888">t</font><font color="#999999">a</font><font color="#AAAAAA">n</font><font color="#BBBBBB">d</font><font color="#CCCCCC">n</font><font color="#DDDDDD">o</font><font color="#EEEEEE">w</font><font color="#FFFFFF">gone</font></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-30 12:20:19
subject: <b>Maybe better not</b>
body:
Someone just has to channel a flow of spirit into the oath rod, not necessairy the holder.<br /><br />However, what would it help to use the oath rod to forbid men to channel (provided it really does work on men)? The effect is the same: They know they will never be able to channel again and the will to live would just drain out of them.<br /><br />Also, remember Aes Sedai's attitude to their oaths (especially about ly- sorry, not speaking an untrue word). Would you bet the current shape of your continents on the believe that no man would be smart enough to reason his way around the oath?<br /><br />And what if they are already slightly mad when they swear the oath? How good does the rod work on mad men? How can you be sure he is not mad enough already?<br /><br />I'm not sure about this fact, but I think I remember swearing on the oath rod wasn't introduced until quite a while after the breaking (if so, it is likely to assume that hardly anyone knew or thought about the rod before someone dragged it out of some dusty storeroom). So the tradition to gentle man has been going on a long time before the oath rod entered your usual Aes Sedai's thoughts. And we know their attitude to changing tradition as well, don't we?


created: 2002-06-19 03:50:14
subject: <b>Binders of men..</b>
body:
Would have existed in some form during the AOL, as binders were used to limit criminal activity.  I don't belive the White binder can bind men, I tend to take Caddar at face value.  Maybe that orange rod Elayne got from Ebou Dar is a male binder.<br /> More importantly, why didn't the AS at the start of the breaking force the men to swear an oath restricting them from destroying and killing??  Or does the Oath Rod or binder not work on an insane person.  This seems unlikely, as we know from Graendal that unhinged people did exist in the AOL, and if they could channel they may well have been dangerous.  It would make more sense if the binder worked regardless.<br /> However, perhaps the binder does little more than create a solid mental block preventing the proscribed action, as opposed to actually effecting an individual's ability to channel.  This would mean that the insane couldn't be bound, but raises questions as to the limiting of age and the change in appearance, although both of these may have been elements of the punishment.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /> Baphomet 23 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br />Give me the strength to change the things I can, the grace to accept the things I cannot, and a great big bag of money.<br /><br />My online gallery:<br />http://daveb23.deviantart.com/gallery/<br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-07 15:48:47
subject: <b>?</b>
body:
first, the rod only requires SOMEONE to channel into it...not necessarily the person who is oathing (not a word...i just wanted to say that).<br /><br />second, if you buy into the theory that the rod was used to bind criminals in the AoL, then surely you can't believe that all criminals in the AoL could channel...<br />


created: 2002-09-09 19:46:30
subject: <b>Binding Chair</b>
body:
I was under the impression that the oath rod or the rods of dominion only work on channelers, but that a binding chair will work on anyone. I'm not sure if some rods will only work for men and some for women. I'm also quite sure that the vast majority of Aes Sedai do not know that the oaths can be removed. Seaine (the AS Elaida sent to hunt out the BA in the WT) only recently figured out that the oaths must be removeable because the BA must be able to lie. Most AS don't even admit to believing in the BA, let alone dwelling on it enough to figure this out. Plus no one even suspected that Suian and Leanne are freed from the oaths.<br /><br />I'm thinking the reason they don't have men swear on the rod is that the AS don't see the OR as an instrument of punishment, it is what makes them AS. Gentling and Stilling are very severe punishments. I wonder if Egwene will ever find out the original purpose of the OR and give up the ridiculous notion that it is what makes them AS. AS in the AoL were very respected. Today's AS are confusing respect with fear.


created: 2002-11-11 19:31:31
subject: <b>Swearing men</b>
body:
Binders work on everyone. Caddar may have just not wanted to be shielded, captured and bound on the spot.<br />Aes Sedai wouldn't want filthy channelling men taking Oaths on their sacred doohickey, and it's too easy to get around an Oath, especially if you are insane. After the Breaking, who would take the chance?<br />And the Black Ajah, who knew the Oath could be removed, and wouldn't want the Dragon able to channel, would have stifled the notion immediately.<br />But it was a good idea!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;You seem a decent fellow... I'd hate to kill you.&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2002-11-26 12:15:34
subject: <b>That curel</b>
body:
<br />  In reagads to the sick at tiwsited idea of have a man swear on the oath rod and then tell him he can never touch the source is much more curel  then genteling.  With Gentiling you might be able to come to grips with some that you lost.   But being albe to sence the power,  and yet not touch,  well the man will go mad with that alone.  How many refrence have been made at the pure joy of touching the source,  so you are going to put some one so close to that joy and not let him touch it.  would  you put a cookies in  the hands of child and told him only to look feel,  but not eat,  you might if your sick and twisted.  If a man cant be alowed to chanel,  Gentel him its more human.  <br />   But at this point why would you have to gentel him if the source is clean?


created: 2002-11-26 12:17:40
subject: <b>Thats curel. sick...</b>
body:
In reagads to the sick at tiwsited idea of have a man swear on the oath rod and then tell him he can never touch the source is much more curel  then genteling.  With Gentiling you might be able to come to grips with some that you lost.   But being albe to sence the power,  and yet not touch,  well the man will go mad with that alone.  How many refrence have been made at the pure joy of touching the source,  so you are going to put some one so close to that joy and not let him touch it.  would  you put a cookies in  the hands of child and tell him only to look and feel,  but not eat,  you might if your sick and twisted.  If a man cant be alowed to chanel,  Gentel him its more human.  <br />   But at this point why would you have to gentel him if the source is clean?


created: 2003-04-15 12:01:33
subject: <b>Perhaps it could work...</b>
body:
maybe the reason that sammael told sevanna that the oath rod wouldn't work on a rand is becasue saidin has to be channeled into it for it to bind a male channeler. and since they don't happen to have any male channelers around, and rand surely wouldn't do it himselfit wouldn't work. true, sammael could have worked the flows himself but how would he explain the rod working without any channeling? also wasn't there a black rod found somewhere (besides the balefire one)? maybe that was a male oath rod.


created: 2008-05-11 11:19:37
subject: <b>Binder</b>
body:
First things first, The Oath Rod (Binder) is NOT a Rod of Dominion, it's the Tittle given to the Regionalal Governors of the Age of Legends. there, thats out of my system.<br /><br />Personaly I think binders work on any channeller, but requires the correct half of the power to be effective., i.e Saidin for males and Saidar for females. This in it self migth be a limiting factor, how could the Aes Sedai be certian the man actually channeled when he swore the Oath? Also if he was to far gone in his madness no oath would probably hold him, most of the men seems to loose much of their awerness when under the influence of the Taint, and as stated the Oaths works based on the channelers perceptions.<br /><br />As the allusion of that an Oath against channeling is more humane than Genteling/Stilling is false, since Stilled/Genteled pepole can still sense the True Source, but the part of what makes them able to actually channel is gone. The child with a coockie in his hand is a good one tho. My guess is that it actually is worse, since you know that you could if only the Oath was gone channel again as opposed to knowing the ability is gone for good. (Well untill recently). My guess is that men (and women) that was forced into such an oath would most likely die of the same reson they die afther being Severed.<br /><br />Also the fact that the Aes Sedai of the Present Age wiev their Oats on the Oath Rod is what makes them Aes Sedai makes it highly unlikely  to even have consided useing one male channelers.<br />That aside the Oaths ARE actually what makes the Aes Sedai of this Age a cohesive society, it's the common touching point  for all sisters. My guess is that Egwenes restructuring of the Aes Sedai will lead to removal of Oats and probably be replaced with something else. As we have no indication what made the Society of Aes Sedai in the AoL viable we only have to guess how this can be acomplished.


created: 2001-08-16 16:20:00
subject: <b>A good theory but...</b>
body:
what about the oath rod?  i believe it was Nynaeve who said &quot;you know what the rod does to us&quot; (may not be an exact quote) to Egwene while arguing with her about taking/not taking the three oaths.<br /><br />My theory stems from this, when verin is using compulsion on the aes sedai held by the wise ones of the aiel, she remarks to herself that this will, eventually, kill them, but not for years.  <br /><br />The Oath rod, i believe, is a form of compulsion, it compells the women to keep to the three oaths they have given upon it, which is the cause of the aes sedai being so much shorter lived than the kin.  The Kin hae NEVER give oaths on the rod, most are either runaway's or put out for one reason or another, you only take the oaths when made full aes sedai.<br /><br />also take note of the reactions of the aes sedai in the tower (who's names slip my mind at the moment) as they reswear and remove their oaths.  it is remarked that it is extremely painful to remove the oaths with the rod, and that they can feel the oaths settle into them when resworn, as the compulsion is felt when verin wields it.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">boo's heart and soul <br /><br /><br />&quot;A few came close, but they ended up either having 3 nipples or an extra toe or some weird thing like that.&quot;<br />Wulf`gar<br /><br />February 22 ,2003 .. a day that will live on in infamy for years to come</font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-29 14:01:56
subject: <b>it's the rod i tell ya</b>
body:
The reason the kin do not age as fast is the rod. It is stated by one of the forsaken that they bind themselfs like crimminals. Semirhage at one point reflected on the fact that she became a forsaken to escape being bound wich would mark her as a crimminal (agelessness)  and send her to an early grave.


created: 2002-03-06 20:47:40
subject: <b>Why doesn't anybody get this?</b>
body:
There is a big difference between SLOWING and AGELESSNESS. If you slow, you look younger, but if you look ageless, nobody can put any age at all to you. Get it? Every woman who can channel slows, but only Aes Sedai are recognizable as channeling women, because only Aes Sedai look ageless. And since nobody else uses the Oath Rod, the conclusion seems fairly obvious.


created: 2002-03-14 20:53:00
subject: <b>This is easy....</b>
body:
this is easy... and was discussed in the books.  Egwene and Nynaeve argued about Aes Sedai ages and the Kin's, and how the Kin lived longer.  Nynaeve concluded that the use of the oath rod dramatically decreased the Aes Sedai life span, and Egwene unveiled her plan that older Aes Sedai would &quot;retire&quot; into the kin, freed of their bonds of the Rod.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&lt;rant&gt; Canadian and proud of it! &lt;/rant&gt;</font><p></p>


created: 2008-05-11 11:27:18
subject: <b>Agelessness</b>
body:
My guess i9s that the Agless look comes from when the Aes Sedai actuall age slips away from her childbearing age and into the menopause (when she loses the ability to bear children). As far as I know women do undergo so quite aperent outwards physical changes during this time.<br />


created: 2002-05-28 22:00:09
subject: <b>Not too bad...</b>
body:
A lot of theories on 'his blood on the rocks of Shayol Ghul.' Personally, I think its gonna be a combination of them all: the Aiel will die, Elayne or Aviendha's babies might be born, Galad and Luc (Rand's uncle, I think,) will die, and Rand himself will die. (I am so optimistic, aren't I? Everyone is going to die... MUAWHAHAHA!!!)<br /><br />Anyways, I hope Galad dies at Tarmon Gaidin, becuase I really can't stand anyone in a white cloak, let alone a sucker for authority and 'what's right.'<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> former Akutenshi member <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> Organizer of TRACS <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> member of the Trigger fan club <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />Trigger fears: <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/berelain.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> I'm aliena's jig-dancing partner <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> jealous? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /> If I'm here, consider yourself blessed by my presence <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-11-08 10:24:58
subject: <b>crying</b>
body:
Rand and Elayne and them all crying would support Cadsuanes saying Rand needs to leanr how to cry again


created: 2001-06-16 16:49:27
subject: <b>Poor Rand</b>
body:
Just want to say, if Rand is bound in the DO's prison, that would really suck for Rand, and the Wheel, because if he is bound, he cannot die, and how could the next Dragon be reborn if the previous one did not die?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ph34r!</font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-11 21:44:54
subject: <b>It just might be!</b>
body:
Hay man if you are right then it just might be the last battle, because if Rand is put in the DO prison then he can not be reborn and the world will be dragonless. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/disapprove.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-10-18 14:00:02
subject: <b>Rand has thought of this himself</b>
body:
Rand has mused many times that that prophesy may only mean he needs to bleed not die. So don't feel TOO original.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" />Easing The Badger<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-05 22:38:32
subject: <b>rand's blood</b>
body:
Maybe it isn't literally his blood. The Aiel would be his blood, as would Tigrane's line. Perhaps that is what his blood will be spilled means.


created: 2002-06-08 23:03:25
subject: <b>Lots of Spilt Blood</b>
body:
Think about this... The Aiel will bleed, Tigraine's line will bleed, Galad (Rand's half-brother) will probably bleed, Rand's kids might be born, and Rand sure as heck will bleed... that's a lot of bleeding all around. There's way too many ways to interpret the prophecy, so to sound like as much of a jackarse as I can... RAFO<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> former Akutenshi member <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> Organizer of TRACS <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> member of the Trigger fan club <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />Trigger fears: <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/berelain.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> I'm aliena's jig-dancing partner <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> jealous? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /> If I'm here, consider yourself blessed by my presence <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-11-20 17:16:20
subject: <b>finns possibly related?</b>
body:
Since a price must be paid, could that be related to the price, the finns ask for answering your questions? Rand needs a dead womens help to win the last battle, so what if he goes with thom into the Tower of Ghengi, and she advises him on what questions to ask for what price. Possibly, thoughts not all straight, but would have 2 get books 2 write this right so think about it


created: 2003-12-15 01:05:34
subject: <b>Min's Viewing</b>
body:
Min see's Two people, LTT and Rand mostlikely; they join together then one dies, and one goes on.. That could mean anything and it doesn't have to be at Tar Gaid.  It could be after a long life of watching children grow into adulthood.


created: 2001-09-01 15:13:14
subject: <b>well......kinda</b>
body:
<br /><br />While the AOL was similiar to the modern world, i think that to turn Randland into a version of the modern world would be yet another Semi-Tolkein rip-off.  In the end of ROK, when everyone returns to the Shire thats exactly what happened up there....As in the Padan Fain situation, i would hope that RJ would try to avoid that much of a similiarity....<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Fear the Lords who are secret among us.The Lords are w/ in us.Born of sloth &amp; cowardice<br /><br />Dreams are at once fruit &amp; outcry against an atrophy of the senses.<br /><br />Dreaming is no solution</font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-27 21:01:12
subject: <b>Revenge of the Luddites?</b>
body:
IMHO, the AOL was a pretty Utopic time.  Nothing like showing off your new jo-car to the cute little Servant next door.  Perhaps Rand recognizes that the average strength in the Power(s) has diminished since AOL, and wants to recapture the standard of living that most people seemed to have back then.  Without having a ter'angreal repairman or craftsman anywhere nearby it will be difficult to do what is necessary to get to that high level of technology/saidology(?).  It may be that Rand doesn't realize what the end result of all this new, advanced technology will be.  The horrific end of personal responsibility and the dawn of a newer, more litigious society <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Plaidwizard<br />Tai'Shar Cheeselandia<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> Good books good, bad fire bad <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />si te certiorem facerem, mihi delendus esses <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-10 11:34:17
subject: <b>Some people just don't get it</b>
body:
WoT as a Modern World? It was one, people! The past becomes present and such. Tne names have changed, but the stories are real! Lenn who flew to the moon in the belly of an eagle(EotW ch 4)? Try John Glenn who flew into space for a certain country that uses an eagle symbol. The Materese of Ind was always a real killer, too. Mater Taresa, ha. Lance of fire could be a missle or an ICBM. How does it feel to be living in the 1st or 7th age, really? Rand and the rest of the group isn't based on the Arthur legend or norse mythos, it's the basis for it. Can anyone else find the other examples? I forgot where they were.


created: 2002-09-10 15:20:06
subject: <b>AOL was not Modern</b>
body:
It does seem obvious that Randland is headed for an industrial revolution (barring TG screwing up everything).  We have Rand's schools (where someone is developing a steam engine) and Mat's cannons.  However, this has nothing to do with a return to AOL.  All AOL technology appears to be related to the one power.<br /><br />Whether the next age resembles our own depends on whether or not there is still channelling.  There is currently no way to know this.<br /><br />As posted above, WOTworld was our world, and will again be our world.  So at some point there was technology without channelling, and at some point there was both (AOL).  So far I've seen no evidence that RJ is interested in the &quot;Magic vs. Technology&quot; debate (that you can't have both), so I doubt the emerging technology in Randland means anything.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Veteran of the Butcher's Yard <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Remember Eben Hopwil <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-11 07:45:57
subject: <b>Why not the other way?</b>
body:
If we take it that the AoL was the highest point of civilisation, well definitely higher than the now, I'd think the cycle of civilisation has to have a downslope to return to a &quot;prehistoric age&quot; or some such age where men run with wolves and blokes hit dinosaurs over heads with clubs (well you get the idea)<br /><br />Anyway, its just possible things may have to get worse to get better, not a happy ending but then WoT was never a fairy tale.


created: 2003-05-18 20:29:19
subject: <b>Just one small correction.....</b>
body:
The WOT universe is not really in the &quot;Dark Ages&quot; as you said, because they already have a printing press. No one was working on one in the university. It's obvious printing presses exist, because how else could there be so many copies of The Travels of Jain Farstrider around huh? (I think that's the right name for the book). Also, I think I remember somewhere either in &quot;the big white ref. book&quot;, or The Strike at Shayol Ghul, someone mentioning that it was a good thing printing survived the breaking, even if it did not happen often during it. Anyway just thought I'd say that. BTW, does anyone else besides me think Noal is really Jain Farstrider?


created: 2003-06-02 20:03:29
subject: <b>Noal...</b>
body:
Noal could be Jain Farstrider... he could also be working for Graendal under Complusion. Both, either or neither. ^_^<br /><br />Somewhere in the beginning-ish of TEotW is a metaphor/simile (can't remember which) where Rand is thinking that his head was like a balloon.<br /><br />Errr... they have balloons?<br /><br />Slightly OT, but a thought. *wg*<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Lissa M. Rose<br /><br />&quot;Bring out your dead!&quot;<br /><br />&quot;You don't frighten us, English pig-dog! Go and boil your bottoms, son of a silly person. I blow my nose on you, so-called Arthur-king, you and your silly English kiii-niggits!&quot;<br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-08 22:24:45
subject: <b>A little correction...</b>
body:
Printing press was in the 1400s... Martin Luther in the 1500s.<br /><br />Close enough.<br /><br />But excellent post (I must agree with it)... I noticed the same things, even a vehicle... yay!<br /><br />First post-a-riffic!<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /> Stupid turtleneck! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angry.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Anagram time!<br /><br />Rand al'Thor=darn harlot <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/oh.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />searching for others...</font><p></p>


created: 2005-02-23 15:55:18
subject: <b>Hmmm.</b>
body:
I suppose. But rememeber, they're not discovering, they're rediscovering. And, I don't agree with the declining theory. I think that, by the Seventh Age, Humanity will be gone and the Ogier shall inherit the world! You want to know what they're going to do? I sneaked forward a few millennia and brought back their plans! They're going to turn the whole world into a stedding! Of course, I couldn't find out how they're going to do that. I escaped barely with my life when I escaped Stedding Shangtai! No, I was serious about that. The humanity disappearing part, anyway.


created: 2005-11-27 10:13:36
subject: <b>Ogier and Humans</b>
body:
The ogiers aren't even of this world.  I don't know if they originated in an alternate scenario- portal stone or something else, but the existence of the &quot;book of translocation,&quot; which can't be an ter'angreal- they're in a steading, suggests that they simply run to a diffrent world whenever they are in danger.  They couldn't have been there in the last seventh age, and wheel wouldn't allow ogiers to block off the one power completely, and needs humans for the next turning


created: 2006-05-29 14:57:22
subject: <b>DUH</b>
body:
Duh, this theory is Duh!<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br />That is all.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2006-06-03 21:56:03
subject: <b>They make you put a title</b>
body:
so its been like wut 3000 years since the breaking and in our own world its been 2000 years since that dude that walked on water was killed and we can fly and talk to some one on the other side of the world in the space of a few min. ect. ect.i i think that the War of the Hunderd Years might of screw stuff up as well as the Trolloc Wars but i mean come on I think that they would of gotten a little farther techonolgy wise than they are now.. which i guess means they are some up dependent on the One Power...wow i didnt mean for it to be this long.


created: 2007-05-18 00:50:23
subject: <b>Some Dates and the circle of events</b>
body:
The printing press was invented about 1445/50 by Johann Gutenberg and Martin Luther posted his 99 theories in Wittenberg in 1532. But that's only for reference.<br /><br />As for WoT and the modern world: that's what WoT has been: A modern world with modern accomplisments and a modern society structure. (Hey, they knew genetic sciences in the AOL creating the Nym and other structures, and oh...the Trollocs as well.) They fell back rather badly after the Breaking but things like printing survived. And fireworks! Fireworks in WoT are not like in LotR the product of magic and a wizard who's speciality is fire. Here they are made by a guild that makes the technique a secret. So they have retained some knowledge of times past and how to produce gunpowder-like substances. ( I know, it's not all that hard to make if you know what you are doing.)<br />The world of WoT was never really medievial or 'dark Ages' like, it was an odd mixture of several time periods, due to their fall back from a more modern world.<br /><br />After Tarmon Gaidon, I think there will be room for humanity to develop once more towards something, that some day might resemble the Age of Legends. I believe it will take 2 to 4 ages to accomplish that. By that time they should have forgotten about the DO and his touch and might just find the Prison again...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Why did I follow him? I don't know.<br />Why do things happen as they do in dreams?<br />All I know is: when he beckoned I had to follow.<br />From this moment on we journeyed east.<br />Always to the east.</font><p></p>


created: 2008-04-18 15:50:03
subject: <b>Wot was modern</b>
body:
Wot was modern. and I will tell you why it will be modern again.<br /><br />before you say<br /><br />&quot;All AOL technology appears to be related to the one power.&quot;<br /><br /><br />lets look at Shock lances, yeah sounds like a nasty police taser if you ask me! among with all the numerous refrences to fly to the stars in the eagle, space flight and weapons that traveld miles missles, and the golems reaction to being in his new time.<br /><br />you are all thinking too small...Jordan is a master story teller and EVERYONES idea of the wheel is too small, rand is not going to mark an new cycle and break the world again like LTT I believe that he will set the course on to a long road that will lead back into the age of legends and then the drilling of the bore...In another theory I talked about the use of the key+calandor and how that might be enough to seal the bore, and how it might help kill rand....back to Wot being modern...<br /><br />The one power is genetic, look at the info we gather from the people beyond the waste everyone who can channel lives in a enclosed society. (its not a dominate traite, its recessive and it might have environmental influences as well)<br /><br />Next, a highly evolved society could implement genetic influences.  <br /><br />not everyones genetics could be alterd and therefore we have people who are not channelers.  <br /><br />Now, the end comes, I think something will happen maybe an counter attack from the DO and everyone cant channel anymore However, the standing waves come back...I remeber reading about it, when they were talking about ter angreal and somehow the standing waves ceased to exsiste anymore and some terangreal used the standing weaves &lt;used only the standing weaves so ppl could use them who didnt channel.<br /><br />Now when more people were channeling the standing weaves ceased to be...dont know why, maybe there using the power via genetic manuliptation drained the standing flow, like a battery.  This could also help explaine how they made the eye of the world.  They knew what would happen and so they made it to show them the power can exsiste, simply exsiste in a free form state not being weilded <br /><br />PS trolocks and half men...how would you even think to make such a creation if you had no knoledge of genetics? The way the forsaken talk of the creation of them (I would say maybe with help with the power) That this is not that unlikely their civilization was in an age of legends...<br /><br />In another theory I talked about the use of the keys+calandor and how that might be enough to seal the bore, and how it might help kill rand.<br /><br />


created: 2002-06-30 19:20:26
subject: <b>Hmmmm. . .</b>
body:
That would be interesting, the ultimate sacrifice for all channies.  Of course, the suicide rate would shoot through the roof, but that's beside the point, isn't it?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I went to San Fransisco.  I found someone's heart.<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/clonetrooper.gif" border="0" /> I am da Hossmeister <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/clonetrooper.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/uno.gif" border="0" /> It's Uno! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/uno.gif" border="0" /><br />&quot;I have as much authority as the Pope, I just don't have as many people who believe it.&quot;<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" />wotmania army of darkness<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /><br />Edge breaks the walls down</font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-04 22:46:44
subject: <b>Seriously</b>
body:
Seriously..come on.  Get your act together.  Gaidal is born somewhere, and is not avhienda's unborn baby. I doubt that she is pregnant.  It's been like 5 months since she slept with rand.  If she was pregnant someone would notice.  Also...not only are there about 700 ashaman(or were a little while back), but the average ashaman is at least 4 times as strong as the average aes'sedai.  Also, aes'sedai means servants of all, not just servants.  <br />sincerely,<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />the wandering wotmaniac<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" />the wandering wolfbrother<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bela.gif" border="0" />the wandering cowbrother?<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bela.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gandalf.gif" border="0" />gandalf<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gandalf.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" />one ring to rule them all<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" />one ring to find them<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" />one ring to bring them all<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" />and in the darkness bind them<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" />in the land of mordor where shadows lie<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />the lover of light and wisdom<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" />the all-seeing eye<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />the wandering wotmaniac<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-29 11:17:21
subject: <b>I agree with part</b>
body:
All up to Aviendha being pregnant. But as far as the guardians balancing the servants, I believe it means tha Asha'man and Aes Sedai as well.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br /><i>I will try. Before surrendering to dreams or death, I will try.<font color="black"></font></i></font><p></p>


created: 2002-12-11 09:26:12
subject: <b>Alternate sword,spear but obviously min</b>
body:
Okay i agree with you about the Elayne, Min and Aviendha thing but there are other possibilities. she who sees beyond is obviously min(though it could be someone with the Foretelling)but the others are not so certain. The lion sword has to have something to do with Andor, the white lion being their symbol but it could be Gawain just as easily as Elayne, after all he is the First Prince of the &quot;sword&quot;. The dedicated spear suggests an Aiel of some form but think about it. the aiel means spear or something like that, but the Jenn Aiel means &quot;dedicated&quot; spear. Yes I know they're all dead but the Tinkers are kind of the Jenn Aiel, in which case it's Aram, Perrin's pet wolfhound.


created: 2004-08-26 09:41:40
subject: <b>Three in a Boat</b>
body:
In one of the FAQ's, Jordan says that you can look at the wheel in two ways. This could mean that Lews Therin could look back at the past and see Rand there, but Rand could look back at the past and see Lews Therin there. It could be that the voice in LT's head is Rand.<br /><br />1st Age --2nd Age -- AOL (3rd Age)-- 4th Age -- 5th Age-etc<br /><br />and then all the way back to the begining. This would mean Rand would see LT as his past.<br /><br />AOL (3rd Age)-- 2nd Age-- 1st Age-- 7th Age..etc..4th Age--<br /><br />this would mean that if LT looked far enough back in history, he would find Rand al'Thor in the Age before his wich we think of as the 4th Age


created: 2004-12-08 14:14:30
subject: <b>eh?</b>
body:
where did it say ashaman were 4 times as strong as aes sedai.. i really dont think it did. the difference in power strength is significat enough to get mentioned but id say its more like aes sedai power rating of 1 with ashaman comining in at 1.25-1.5 naturaly i come in at power 1 recurring<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> (aka infinite unlimited power)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> let the speedbart ride again upon the winds of time <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Made the second post on the new WoTMB2 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-04-06 00:00:00
subject: <b>It's worse</b>
body:
Not only is this not what the author has in mind, and not only is it not possible (not even with the Chodan Kal, I think, can you get balefire that strong) but it's impossible. You're first premise is that the Dark One is a thread in the pattern, which is not true. The Dark One exists outside the pattern, and is said to be the only thing that can destroy the pattern (something within the pattern cannot destroy it, not even with balefire) so the entire argument is flawed.


created: 2001-05-20 18:30:14
subject: <b>Assuming you can...</b>
body:
Assuming you can balefire the dark one, that would be really, really, really bad.   Why did they even stop using balefire in the War of Power?   Because it kept messing things up, by removing a thread for so long a time.   Now, imagine if you managed to balefire the dark one.   That would take a lot of the one power, and it would really take him out of the pattern, undoing all that he had done.   (Im not gonna go over that, just think about it.  It would just remove, ohh...about EVERYTHING IN ALL NINE BOOKS.)   Removing a thread that has affected the world as much as the DO's would really mess it up.   IMHO, it would be the end of civilization as we know it, the universe would go kaput, etc, etc, etc.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Bow to the Donut!!!   <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-22 08:39:17
subject: <b>but ehm..</b>
body:
The DO is outside the pattern, he is NOT a thread in the pattern(this iswhy the world is still 'alive'). That's like imagining(sp?) some Shadowsworn balefireing the Creator. The DO and the Creator are equals(sp?), only that the Creator is the good one, the DO the bad one(doh!). The a world where the Creator is a part of the Pattern and not the DO would make the same horrific world as the DO beeing a part of the pattern and not the Creator. Rand will NOT balefire the DO, he will not fight the DO in that way. He will fight the DO's chosen, as they fight the Creator's chosen. It is between them now. Or.. it should be, and the Creator, he/she/it stay's out, beeing the good one, and the DO, of course, does the opposite. But Rand will not fight the DO in that manner. You cannot balefire someone outside of the pattern, and if the DO was part of the pattern, there would be no TG to fight;theDO would already have won.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i><br /><br />Some times nothin' is a real cool hand.</i></font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-22 17:42:07
subject: <b>this is a NON spoiler POST!!!</b>
body:
impossible!<br />read the guide!<br />and don't u think htat in AOL(Age of Legonds) they alrady tryed that?<br />in the guide it is writen VERY clearly!<br />'the dark one exists outside the WoT'<br />the so called 'proson' only abtains him in WoT!!!<br />he doesn't RAELY exists but is more like the creators little brother who came 2 inspect the 'toy'!<br /><br />{{<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/seanchan.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/seanchan.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/seanchan.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/seanchan.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/seanchan.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/seanchan.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/seanchan.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/seanchan.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/seanchan.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/seanchan.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/seanchan.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/seanchan.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/seanchan.gif" border="0" />}}<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">A very very wise man once sai &quot;i dunno go ask a woman!'<br /><br />life without WoT is like a broken pencel!<br />POINTLESS!<br /><br />am i here<br />maybe i'm there<br />i can be everywhere!<br />but here, where here is for thy<br />I sure not<br />but I might be there...<br /><br />use thy brai</font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-05 12:06:58
subject: <b>Dumb</b>
body:
This is one of the supidest theories I have ever read. You obviously have no clue as to the inner workings of WOT. Have you picked up nothing from reading the books. If you could get rid of the DO simply by balefiring him, don't you think anyone with the ability to channel would have done so. Back in the Age of Legends they were tossing it around like it was nothing and almost unravelled the whole pattern, and they were only balefiring mortals. Imagine what would happen if you balefired the source of most, if not all, the evil in the world. Put a little more time and thought into your theories before you post such rubbish.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">*insert creative sig here*</font><p></p>


created: 2003-04-26 06:00:32
subject: <b>Some Thoughts</b>
body:
I too respectfully disagree with this theory.  I also respectfully disagree with Rinso.  IMHO, The Creator and the Dark One are not equals.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I love Trillessa</font><p></p>


created: 2004-02-26 06:41:34
subject: <b>Wow . . .</b>
body:
You folks REALLY need to Cut back on the rageohol!<br />I know it's nice and complex, I love every page I read, <br />but in the end, you're getting worked up over a story.  <br />Relax, OR I'LL BALEFIRE YOU!!!!!:-D<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I've got two guns, one for each of you.<br /><br />&quot;The more keys you have the less important you are.&quot; -Pepe<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-04-19 06:05:20
subject: <b>It is possible</b>
body:
It is possible to balefire the Dark One. As quoted RJ &quot;The amount of balefire needed to balefire the Dark One would destroy the world&quot; Probably with the heat alone. The Dark One is as big as the pattern, every bit of the pattern is as near to the DO as every other. Just that the bore is thinner.<br /><br />And no, the dark one is not a thread of the WoT. It is outside it, but his actions affect it.<br /><br />Have any of you considered how the Do wants to break the Wheel of Time? He wants to break it so badly...as from what his minions say...so SOMETHING in the turning of the wheel holds him. If he did break free he can totally rupture the ages ahead by desroying the correct souls, eg the dragons, various traitors of his, etc. SOMETHING IN THE WHEEL OF TIME holds him. He is afraid of something. Perhaps to stop the pattern from mending itself? Who knows. I think i'll make a theory about it.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" />


created: 2005-02-04 19:00:16
subject: <b>baad idea to make posts when youve read 5 books</b>
body:
I've read theories that say &quot;i have only read the series twice, so i might be wrong&quot; take those words into consideration.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">-Sabin<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-04-16 22:33:16
subject: <b>umm, no!</b>
body:
completely impossible.<br /><br />one, the DO  is not a thread, and could not be burned out of the pattern. <br /><br />two, if youd read the rest of the books youd know how the taint problem was resolved.<br /><br />three, if that much balefire was used, the pattern would unravel, and then rand didnt do his job too well, now did he?<br /><br />four, if all the DO's actions didnt happen, then probably nobody currently alive in wot would be anymore (maybe this should have gone with three...).<br /><br />and, last but not least, five, it would really be a crappy way to end the series. ok, not a strong point, but who really cares?


created: 2006-03-07 20:52:18
subject: <b>It's a good theory....</b>
body:
but I don't think that it will happen. The dark one is outside of the pattern so it is not possible. Also balefire destroys the thread, so the dark one would be gone, but we know that the world is a wheel, so everything is a repeat of past things.That would have tio mean that the DO had been balefired before, which means that he wouldn't ve here now.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Poets have been mysteriously silent on the subject of cheese.&quot;     -G. K. Chesterton<br /> <br />My naked walrus is on fire. <img src="images/personalsmilies/41668.gif" /><br /><br />TEVT: We are back in business! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/w00t.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2007-06-14 13:08:40
subject: <b>That is the most retarded theory i have ever heard</b>
body:
maybe you should finish the series before you make conclusions about the Last Battle.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /> There's some delight in ale and wine,<br />and some in girls with ankles fine,<br />but my delight, yes, always mine,<br />is to dance with Jak o' the Shadows. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /><br /> <br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-04-03 00:00:00
subject: <b>Changing places</b>
body:
The idea of the Creator and the Dark One changing places as the Wheel turns is pretty unbelievable to me.  The Dark One is know to be inherently evil. It also seems we are assuming that the Creator stands for what is right and good.  I really doubt that a situation like this could completely reverse itself, making the Creator absolutely evil, and the Dark One a benevolent presence??  They would have to be some pretty manic-depressive deities for that to happen. The Dark One is probably jealous of the Creator and would readily take his place, but only so that he could delight in all sorts of evil, and making all of creation grovel before him.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Arien <br /><br /><i><font color='blue" size="2'>nobody said it was easy/nobody said it would be this hard</font></i></font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-02 11:32:01
subject: <b>Actually</b>
body:
In Christian belief there are two battles.  One when Satan is cast down to Earth, then the final one when he is cast to Hell.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font face="old english text mt"><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />  Lord Avatar Darkstorm <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />  King of the Morning   <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />  Prince of the Day     <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />  He Who Rules the Night<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font> <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-04 22:54:32
subject: <b>You Idiot!</b>
body:
Listen to me closely....YOU ARE WRONG!  The DO calls the dragon his age old enemy, Ishy/Moridin, a genius and philosopher, who is so smart that he realized that everything had happened as it was in previous turnings of the wheel, says that he wants to turn rand to the shadow, and that it has been done before.  A champion of LIGHT!...mad into a creature of the SHADOW!  so there.<br />sincerely,<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />the wandering wotmaniac<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" />the wandering wolfbrother<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bela.gif" border="0" />the wandering cowbrother?<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bela.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gandalf.gif" border="0" />Gandalf<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gandalf.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" />one ring to rule them all<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" />one ring to find them<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" />one ring to bring them all<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" />and in the darkness bind them<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" />in the land of mordor where shadows lie<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />the lover of light and wisdom<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" />the all-seeing eye<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />the wandering wotmaniac<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-20 10:26:58
subject: <b>Antichrist? Not impossible</b>
body:
Another name for the Antichrist, other than Adversary or Spawn of Satan, is <b>DRAGON</b>.<br /><br />I read this in Neil Gaiman's <i>Good Omens</i>, and his books are always very well-researched and accurate to his sources.<br /><br />This book also includes the idea of the Antichrist actually being GOOD, so the only question in my mind is: who's reading whose books?.


created: 2006-03-12 01:01:30
subject: <b>It's a good theory....</b>
body:
but i don't see it happen. It would be funny if that is what had happend, but no i just don't belive it.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Poets have been mysteriously silent on the subject of cheese.&quot;     -G. K. Chesterton<br /> <br />My naked walrus is on fire. <img src="images/personalsmilies/41668.gif" /><br /><br />TEVT: We are back in business! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/w00t.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-04-14 00:00:00
subject: <b>Wheels <img src="images/smile.gif" /></b>
body:
if the DO wins, the wheel breaks, time flows linear, if Rand wins, the DO is imprisoned again until another age when .... wars are forgotten.....  you get the drift again <img src="images/smile.gif" /><p>wish I could remember who said that, Ill try to find it before to long and post it to you....</p><p>So I think, rand wins, but the wheel keeps going after the story is over and yes, it technically would be meaninless but fun <img src="images/smile.gif" /></p>


created: 2001-06-29 03:52:56
subject: <b>A silly song</b>
body:
this is the fight that never ends...it just goes on and on my friend...some people started fighting without knowing what it was...and they'll continue fighting for ever just because...this is the fight that never ends...it just goes on and on my friend...some people started fighting without knowing what it was...and they'll continue fighting for ever just because...this is the fight that never ends...it just goes on and on my friend...some people started fighting without knowing what it was...and they'll continue fighting for ever just because...this is the fight that never ends...it just goes on and on my friend...some people started fighting without knowing what it was...and they'll continue fighting for ever just because...this is the fight that never ends...it just goes on and on my friend...some people started fighting without knowing what it was...and they'll continue fighting for ever just because...this is the fight that never ends...it just goes on and on my friend...some people started fighting without knowing what it was...and they'll continue fighting for ever just because...this is the fight that never ends...it just goes on and on my friend...some people started fighting without knowing what it was...and they'll continue fighting for ever just because...this is the fight that never ends...it just goes on and on my friend...some people started fighting without knowing what it was...and they'll continue fighting for ever just because...this is the fight that never ends...it just goes on and on my friend...some people started fighting without knowing what it was...and they'll continue fighting for ever just because...this is the fight that never ends...it just goes on and on my friend...some people started fighting without knowing what it was...and they'll continue fighting for ever just because...this is the fight that never ends...it just goes on and on my friend...some people started fighting without knowing what it was...and they'll continue fighting for ever just because...this is the fight that never ends...it just goes on and on my friend...some people started fighting without knowing what it was...and they'll continue fighting for ever just because...this is the fight that never ends...it just goes on and on my friend...some people started fighting without knowing what it was...and they'll continue fighting for ever just because...this is the fight that never ends...it just goes on and on my friend...some people started fighting without knowing what it was...and they'll continue fighting for ever just because...this is the fight that never ends...it just goes on and on my friend...some people started fighting without knowing what it was...and they'll continue fighting for ever just because...this is the fight that never ends...it just goes on and on my friend...some people started fighting without knowing what it was...and they'll continue fighting for ever just because...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Elan Morin Tedronai, Lord of the Dark, Sightblinder, Keeper of the Dragons</font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-02 13:13:24
subject: <b>If he DO wins</b>
body:
If the DO wins, the Wheel doesn't break.  The DO has won before, in fact!  Jordan has as much as said that this is just the story of one turning of the wheel.  <br />There's even a reference to a game piece that resembles Rand... don't remember where the reference was, though... <br />Anyway, the Wheel will keep turning regardless....


created: 2001-07-13 07:56:56
subject: <b>Lews therin's wishes</b>
body:
I do not think the Dark One will be temporarily sealed away again. Why? Well, I really got the idea from reading this theory a minute ago, so I haven't really thought it through yet. The thing is you said that the Dark One is dead and the Dragon will never have to be reborn again. That is it!!!<br />The thing is; Lews Therin is always going on about how he wants to die forever, but he'll never get to die forever if he doesn't really KILL the Dark One. So he will...<br />Did I make any sense at all?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> <font color="a52a2a">Magnus Alexander corpore parvus erat </font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <font color="b8860b">Dissenting voice of wotmania</font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <br /><font color="6495ed">Frightfully stubborn pacifist</font> <br /><br /><i><font color="669900"> Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent</font></i></font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-20 16:42:49
subject: <b>Final Battle</b>
body:
Hasn't RJ also mentioned...many, many, many times that this is The Last Battle.  That if, Rand (The Dragon Reborn) doesnt defeat the Dark One, that the shadow shall rule (wince) RandLand?<br /><br />(I can't believe I used the RL...too much reading of this site...)<br /><br />TheCrow


created: 2003-04-08 18:27:54
subject: <b>it is an end but there are no ends</b>
body:
In my opinion Rand will win.  But, even in winning it isn't an end to things because he can't completely kill the dark one because if he did there would be nothing for aes sedai that have yet to come and at the same time have come before to drill into in the search for more power.  Inevitably what I am saying is that while Rand may win the Dark One will exist forever or if he is destroyed the world will go with him and the creator will make everything over again and the wheel will keep going


created: 2003-04-26 05:33:50
subject: <b>Round and round it goes...</b>
body:
I hope that the Dark One only will be inprisoned anew. I agree to whoever said that &#237;t is if the DO wins that the wheel will be broken.<br />I would love an ending that somehow say that the whole thing would repeat itself &#180;til the end of time(the DO wins?)


created: 2004-10-24 11:33:18
subject: <b>the wheel turning hey?</b>
body:
they say that the wheel goes in cycles. but what is in the cycles is not necessarily determined. what if what rand does in TG is to &quot;remodel&quot; the wheel so that the dark one never has the chance to escape or he makes a prison that is impregnable or even better, he makes a continuous stoke of something simillar to the age of legends. sounds a bit optimistic or far fetched, the RJ has not set down a world that has boundaries yet, everything changes as he pleases, but i dont think he is a let down writer in that he wont have such an obvious ending with a repeating cycle of dark one getting free and sealed and with the dragon, so on.


created: 2001-06-29 03:54:44
subject: <b>oh</b>
body:
A hoax bigger than Canada....why, you must mean it's Russia.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Elan Morin Tedronai, Lord of the Dark, Sightblinder, Keeper of the Dragons</font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-12 19:21:58
subject: <b>A hoax bigger....</b>
body:
Is it even possible for a larger hoax to exist than Canada... I somehow doubt it.<br /><br />Seanais the Third,<br />Ruler of the Realms,<br />Hammer of the Light,<br />Heckler of Canada<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">The Hammer of the Light,<br /><br />By The Grace of the Light,<br /><br />High King of the World,<br /><br />Lord of the Six Gates,<br /><br />Master of the Winds,<br /><br />Artur Hawking</font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-29 16:42:40
subject: <b>Nice try....</b>
body:
Butttt as I remember it didn't Lanfear bore into a &quot;new power&quot; that just happened to be the Dark One. Isn't that strange? If the Dark One is the source of both powers then the One Power would be null and void while he's out. Not going to argue that he had a very large and heavy hand (down Mesaana!) in the creation of the sources, but him being the source would be rather impossible, unless he has a streak of drama. I'm not going into conspiracy theories of Randland. *shudders*


created: 2001-12-13 09:42:23
subject: <b>Break the Wheel He Made?!?!</b>
body:
All throughout TEotW, we heard about how the DO was going to break the Wheel and slay the Serpent, yadda-yadda-yadda.  Now, if the DO made the wheel, why would he want to break it?  If the Wheel is designed to set him free, shouldn't he be free by now, since the Wheel has turned countless times before?


created: 2002-02-18 12:59:28
subject: <b>hey</b>
body:
ok well I though the ideals where great....<br />but why did you use Canada in your title, why did you call Canada a Hoax.<br />That was just rud and there was no reason for you to say that man.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angry.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-06-16 16:39:35
subject: <b>Hmmmm...</b>
body:
Ok, if the DO created the wheel in an attempt to set himself free, maybe he unintentionally trapped himself.  Let's set the stage:<br /><br />The DO and the Creator are both powerful and eternal.  They both have created power (the Creator has the One Power, the DO has his stuff (can't remember what it's called)), and let's picture that as a Yin Yang-like thingy much like Saidin and Saidar.  That means that the two balance one another.  The DO and Creator are equals, until the DO decides to try to usurp all power for himself.  He attempts, but is defeated and bound by the Creator.  The DO sees his fatal flaw and, to get a second chance, makes a cycle of Ages in which he will always get the chance to usurp power; however, the same mistake is always made, so the DO is always bound.  He trapped himself in an endless cycle that he now wishes to break...


created: 2002-07-10 08:16:46
subject: <b>The canadian hoax is that it is it's own country</b>
body:
When it is oboiusly just the 51rst state.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">BORDERLANDER<br /><br />TAIM WAS NEVER DEMANDRED<br />&quot;All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident.&quot; <br />- Arthur Schopenhauer <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-05 10:08:16
subject: <b>onnako</b>
body:
omae wo korosu<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> &quot;I'm the D.O.&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /> &quot;No I am&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rand.gif" border="0" /> &quot;KILL THEM!&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /> &quot;You can't possibly win!&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" />*smirks* &quot;Ya wanna make a bet???&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perrin.gif" border="0" /> *mutters* &quot;stupid axe&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/avi.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/min.gif" border="0" /> &quot;YOU CAN DO IT!&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2005-06-09 17:02:34
subject: <b>Yo, Borderlander</b>
body:
A little history they'll never teach you in your ignorant American schools.<br /><br />1)We Canadians have burnt down the White House TWICE(And I'm working on a third).<br /><br />2)Canada won the War of 1812, not you.<br /><br />3)America is the most despised country in the world.<br /><br />4)Everybody loves Canadians.<br /><br />5)America is merely &quot;babysitting&quot; all that land until my people decide we've had enough of you ignorant f*cks being a superpower. When that happens, we're coming down there, and Canada is gonna have a bunch of new provinces.<br /><br />Oh, and BTW, my wonderful nation is far to large to be one mere state. Besides, Canadian citizens wouldn't stand for the idiotic crap your leaders shovel down your throats. You can stay in the U.S., (and I hope you do, we have enough trash up here already) but should your people try to move on us, you'll find that our reputation as &quot;Peacekeepers&quot; stems from the fact that any war we get involved in, we win.<br /><br />In conclusion, Canada isn't a hoax, America's views of the world, that's the hoax.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Of course you should fight fire with fire! You should fight EVERYTHING with fire!<br /><br />-Al'Gai, the Son of Battle<br />A.K.A. Anaro Ravenclaw,<br />Technomancer for the next Millenium <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/borg.gif" border="0" /><br />Revenant Bounty Hunter Extroidinaire <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/dead.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-08-10 23:38:11
subject: <b>Dispite what you seem to think...</b>
body:
There is a point to the Dark One creating a wheel of time,<br />1 he has infinte chances to escape his prison<br />2 no matter how bad events are in one turning he will always have a chance to escape (with a fresh slate) in the same time as passed ages ago, since after all, time is a wheel.<br />3 apon escaping, and having done away with the dragon (in someway) He could &quot;inspect&quot; the world to see if the conditions are favorable to break the wheel and create a straight line of time, and be a controling factor in the progression of time.<br /><br />Now in the books he makes mentions of having the dragon on his side, why not break the world then? maybe he needs the combined power of the Dragon, Himself and the forsakken, which could explain why it has not come to pass already, since the forsakken have thier own plans, and doubtless so would the dragon, the wheel comes into play here, he has infinite chances to complete his plans, instead of one.<br /><br />hey Al_gai your history fails.<br />-white house burned ONCE, by the british<br />-Canada didn't exist during the war of 1812<br /><br />-I would like to see America turn Canada into the &quot;Canadian Ocean&quot; after a stunt like that.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Sporadic postings since 2005!!&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2007-07-24 00:44:36
subject: <b>Screw you Canada haters</b>
body:
First of all before I get into this I want to say, yes, despite its ludicracy, I am American.<br />now that thats over...<br />Canada Rocks and they could kick America's ass really easy.<br /><br />The Great Canadian Conspiracy Theory:<br /><br />Although very few people know it, Canada supplies America with a larger percentage of oil than any other country in the world. That said, a Canadian embargo on oil to US would entirely devastate us. It wouldn't be that hard for them to convince the Middle East to stop supplying us oil for a while either(no secret they hate us). That would take roughly 80% of the oil that comes into the US out of the market. The rest comes from Marxist countries in South America(God knows the Commies have reasons to hate us), and they would gladly join in. This all means that the US wouldn't even have enough oil to slide the Nukes out of the missle silos. Canada sweeps in and takes the rest, promising prominent buisnises &quot;cheap&quot; oil for double the price before the orchestrated crisis. The revenue would allow Canada to go a few years without collecting taxes, which would gain the support of the rest of America(we are all just a bunch of greedy bastards anyways,&quot;give me something free and I'll kiss your ass for the rest of my life&quot; mentality).Thus Canada destroys us utterly. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/w00t.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Someone give this to the Canadian gov. I don't want to wait for them to figure it out themselves.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Most Magnificent Master of Metaphors<br />&quot;Take life by the horns. Then when its thrashing around--castrate it!&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2007-07-24 00:54:09
subject: <b>If RJ make a book after AMOL</b>
body:
If the DO won, and the series would be renamed the Straight Line of Time as you suggested, we would all be on a SLOTMANIA : FEED YOUR SLOT ADDICTION, a website devoted to RJ fans and gambling addicts<br />Probably run by some guy called &quot;prince of ravens&quot; or somewho like that <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />HEhehehehehehehe.....HEhe....HEhe..hehe <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Most Magnificent Master of Metaphors<br />&quot;Take life by the horns. Then when its thrashing around--castrate it!&quot; <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-19 20:35:20
subject: <b>I like...</b>
body:
I would just like to say how much I like this theory, it really goes deep into the story. Can you imagine how cool it would be?<br /><br />Every book starts with the same thing, about ages and the wheel of time... Could you imagine how nifty it would be for the last book to end with something different?<br /><br />Good Post!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /> Ruler of the Empire <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> Laughing Amphibian of Dreams <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /> Valiant Servant <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-14 06:04:40
subject: <b>Reminds me of</b>
body:
the end of the Dragonlance book, Dragons of Summer Flame.  There all the magic(One Power) granted by the gods(True Source) is taken away and the magic users(Channelers) have to resort to other methods of magic use, such as death magic and nature magic.  Maybe the inhabitants of the WoT world will have to resort to some other means of doing alot of the things they did with the One Power.  This may mean major technological advances.  Rand has already started a few advances with his school so it is entirely possible.


created: 2002-10-16 00:31:29
subject: <b>Whoa! what a deep survey of this story</b>
body:
However, I must play devils advocate and point out a few errors in your logic. The prime one being the fact that the Forsaken have these &quot;magical&quot; devices, such as the transcirber, which are in no way archaic. They seem to be futuristic, yet have come from a past of nearly 3,000 years. This tells me that he wheel has allready had an age similiar to our own, or even more advanced that our current society. So, if the wheel begins to go linear, why do you think it will go forward? A rennaisance would be great, and even better if Robert Jordan continued the series far into the future. I just don't think it would be possible to break the axle in such a way. The wheel would have no balance without the Dark to counter the Light. Of corse, it will all go into legend, but there will be no total destruction of the Dark One. It would be nice to believe that Rand and his three women will all grow old together though.


created: 2002-11-13 08:53:49
subject: <b>Be practical here.....</b>
body:
Frankly, everyone....i seriously doubt that many of these complicated theories have any chance of being right, simply because they are so complicated.   A lot of them are difficult to understand even if they are written out in perfect english.  If RJ ended his series with something like this, half of his readers would be stumped, having no clue exactly what happened.....he's not going to have such a complicated ending, with the wheel of time-which is essentially a metaphor anyway, i doubt there is truly a giant wheel somewhere spinning time-breaking off the axle of the one power and rolling away.  Any ending like this would ruin the series for many, and be far too hard for RJ to tell through the story.  Sorry to all you would-be Randland philosophers out there....<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;The buck stops here.&quot;-Harry S. Truman <br />&quot;Nobody pushes a dwarf.&quot; -Gimli, son of Gloin <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gimli.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" />Jester-Warrior of the Black Tower<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-06-27 11:56:26
subject: <b>The End of The Wheel</b>
body:
I have read many of Jordans interviews, and in all of them he mentions some hook at the end that will keep the world alive in the readers imagination. I think that this hook will be somehow related to Rand releasing the Dark One, and then destroying him, thus bringing an end to the cyclic Pattern of the Wheel. Jordan has mentioned in his interviews his love for the greek philisophy of linear time.Why then would he right a series based on cyclic time? So that at the end he could create a cataclysmic event that is outside the Prophecies and would end the Turnings of the Wheel, thus creating linear time. I really dont think that Jordan will let the book end with the implication that the 3rd Age will repeat once again. It just doesnt fit with what he has said outside of his writings.


created: 2004-08-25 05:36:24
subject: <b>The Wheel</b>
body:
I see the Wheel of Time differently than you.  I see it as a wheel on a road, not a wheel suspended in the air, and time is both circular and linear. Always going around and around, but also always going forward. The same part of the wheel touches the road again and again, but with different scenery, such as the Ogier being bound to the Stedding's and different landscape do to the breaking.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">There can be only one, may it be <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/uno.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-09-18 19:14:20
subject: <b>neien is right.</b>
body:
oops, that was all i had.  Ur logic doesnt work.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>It's not apples and oranges, but no one paying attention could compare these apples without noticing: <br />(a) one is 12 times bigger and <br />(b) both of them are rutabagas.</i></font><p></p>


created: 2001-12-13 09:41:30
subject: <b>Maybe, maybe not</b>
body:
A lot of people have discussed what the DO is exactly. Mostly, it boiled down to the DO being an entity *outside* the Pattern. Thus having no thread to be burned out and not being an actual person.<br />Because of that, it would be unlikely that Fain becomes the next DO, seeing as how he has a thread and everything.<br /><br />1st spoke: post-breaking<br />2nd spoke: AoL<br />3rd spoke: the Bore<br />4th spoke: post-Bore<br />5th spoke: Last Battle (not the Last, but a pretty bad time anyway)<br />And then it returns to the first spoke.<br /><br />I know I'm missing two, but I can't really come up with those...<br />Any ideas?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Wielder of teh Dutch l00ny!<br />(*mumble* Did that make sense? .... Oh well)</font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-28 23:26:52
subject: <b>Errrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr.................. WRONG!!!</b>
body:
Tarmon Gaidon= LAST BATTLE. RJ wouldn't write about 1 meaningless turning of the Wheel of Time. Rand will kill the Dark One for good, possibly break the Wheel itself, and there will be no repeatings, time and time again, of the Dragon's war against the Shadow. Fain will not take the place of the dead Dark One, because there is only one Dark One, has always been only one Dark One, and both Shai'tan and Fain are going to die at Tarmon Gaidon.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> former Akutenshi member <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> Organizer of TRACS <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> member of the Trigger fan club <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />Trigger fears: <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/berelain.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> I'm aliena's jig-dancing partner <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> jealous? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /> If I'm here, consider yourself blessed by my presence <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-30 20:15:15
subject: <b>I doubt it, but it's an awesome theory</b>
body:
I doubt the part about Rand changing to the dark. And I think that the last battle will be the LAST battle.  No more turning of the wheel I think.  But I also remember RJ saying something in an interview about not completely resolving the storyline at the end, which will drive me crazy, so who knows.  It would be cool though if Fain becomes a sort of new dark one, but I have been looking forward to Rand finally slaughtering that annoying guy.


created: 2002-09-12 05:05:27
subject: <b>RJ doesn`t use other people`s work.</b>
body:
RJ does read a lot of books (according to himself).<br />But I do not think he would use what other people have written. And definitely not to the extent you describe. Just because the names are similar, doesn`t mean anything else is. With so many books in one world and only humans to write them, it is only natural with some similarities. Just because another author has written something, doesn`t mean RJ will do the same.<br /><br />And where is the similarity between Gabriel and Gaebril?


created: 2002-09-12 13:17:14
subject: <b>LOL</b>
body:
Oh my. I have never flamed anyone in any board that I have ever been in. Until now. Did you read the Cliff Notes on these books or did you just jump around without really reading what you were looking at? <br /><br /> The only topic that you hit on that may have a bit of sense is that about PF becoming tha DO. IF the DO is somehow killed off, which I kind of doubt, somebody must replace him. Life is nothing without the conflict of good v evil so there MUST be a DO.<br /><br /> But the rest of it? Wow. I have not seen that much manure since the time I visited my cousin's farm. I would give you credit for having some imagination, but like you said that all came from the plot of other books. If I did not like this series so much I would just let it go, but something this... this dim-witted is insulting to both the author and the books themselves.<br /><br />My apologies to anyone who is even remotely offended by my post (except the author of this thread).


created: 2003-05-07 18:16:32
subject: <b>Sucky theory</b>
body:
Dear Person,<br />this was a sucky theory. A new Dark One! That is dumb. Ishmael wouldn't turn good, Fain isn't powerful enough to become the Dark one and rand isn't Evil. Plus the last Part about the moon and stuff was just dumb. You theorists must think and imagine way to much. Jeez... Aren't I a good critic!


created: 2005-02-18 09:08:09
subject: <b>eh, good, but mostly bad.</b>
body:
do you want the bad news or the good first? good? TOO BAD<br /><br />majoritally, i didn't really like this theory. see what might eventually be posted (i hope) my theory; 'the wheel will always turn' i talk a bunch about how the wheel will always turn (hence the title) it happened once, so it will ALWAYS happen. this is just one particular turning of the Wheel. rj simply wrote about it because he had to choose one of them. Oh yeah, how many idiots does it take to realize... THE DARK ONE CAN'T BE BALEFIRED!!!quite a few, it seems.<br /><br />on a good note, i half agree with how ishy_could_have been turned evil once upon a time. interesting, but probably wont happen.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">-Sabin<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-07 21:21:43
subject: <b>Well...</b>
body:
...that's a rather grim interpretation of &quot;...when the age that gave it birth comes again.  In one Age, called the Third Age by some, an Age long passed, an age yet to come, a wind rose...&quot;  I believe that this turning was meant to be significant.  I don't know that Jordan will end the series with Rand killing himself, particularly since saidin was cleansed.  If Rand dies, it will be a wound inflicted by someone else, whether it be the Dark One, one of the Forsaken, shadowspawn or even friendly fire.  I think that in the next book Rand will be...different.  He was a man ready to die, and now he has found that he has a chance to live.  I wonder what Mr. Jordan will do with that?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> tsorovan'mais <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> storm maiden <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> commander of the lightnings <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br />keeper of the many series<br />one who take titles too seriously<br />If I balefire it, will it die?<br />                   --the question of the universe</font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-26 23:33:12
subject: <b>Elmindreda</b>
body:
Who says that Min will survive TG. As you say having her and the other three all survive is a depressing prospect. Having all three of the others die or even just Elayne and Aviendhe is just as depressing. So Min has to die, if we want everyone to Live Happily Ever After.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /> I am The Dragon Reborn...<br /><br />...................Reborn............<br />........Reborn................<br />.................................Reborn...<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angry.gif" border="0" /> I hate it when it does that!! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br />Damn Wheel!!</font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-29 00:29:25
subject: <b>last battle comments</b>
body:
well, considering that the taint from saidin is removed at the end of book nine. i guess this is an old post.<br /><br /><br />if you recall, ishamael says that the dark one wants to break the wheel of time. and by doing that, he could stop the endless cycle of being freed and re-sealed.<br /><br />but jordan says that the wheel is powered by saidin and saidar, so at least one of them will have to be destroyed to do that. <br /><br />the kicker is, if rand manages to seal the dark one back in, THEN break the wheel of time, he'll be trapped forever...  unless the forsaken release him again. but they should all be dead by then.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Seeking Aes Sedai for Bondage... uhh bonding. <br /><br />We rode on the winds of the rising storm,<br />We ran to the sounds of the thunder,<br />We danced among the lightning bolts,<br />and tore the world asunder.</font><p></p>


created: 2003-08-31 15:50:48
subject: <b>What about Perrin?</b>
body:
You didn`t even mention Perrin.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">jofraz <br /><br />Egwene fanatic<br />&quot;Elaida will be removed one way or another&quot;.<br />The seeds are being planted and some have sprouted.<br />The end is near</font><p></p>


created: 2004-08-25 05:41:00
subject: <b>Perrin?</b>
body:
oh well, but anyway I dont think this will happen, because the story about the guy going to the moon, cant remember his name, comes from the first age. So eigther we got the ages wrong, or the First age is the peak of human civilation.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">There can be only one, may it be <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/uno.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-02-23 15:59:49
subject: <b>Hoy!</b>
body:
Ahem, neien, the First Age is OUR Age. I must have said that ninety times today. And yes, what about Perrin? My favorite character? *unsheathes osan'gar and aran'gar stolen from AoL by use of time machine*


created: 2006-02-27 22:14:58
subject: <b>The creator talking?</b>
body:
I dont remember anything from the end of the Eye of the world about the creator talking to Rand at Tarwin's Gap about not being involved.


created: 2001-06-06 15:49:05
subject: <b>I took it to mean...</b>
body:
I took it as saying that the Fourth Age in which these prophecies were written was the LAST Fourth Age, in which people are describing what happened the last time this battle took place in general enough terms that we can see what it's going to be like THIS time.  I don't look at these prophecies as part of the central story.  Instead, they are peeks into the future for us, the audience, to look at and see how similar this Third Age is to the last one.


created: 2001-08-13 13:37:27
subject: <b>Can't remember last 4th age</b>
body:
I don't think it's reasonable to say that the prophecy is from the last 4th age, because as it says in the books by the time an age comes around again, the last time it was around has become completely forgotten.  Considering that even any concrete information on the AoL is hard to come by, prophecy that was written almost an entire turning of the wheel ago wouldn't likely exist.<br />Whether this means that the good guys are going to win because there is a fourth age, or whether the fourth age is under the shadow of the Dark One, or whether its just a possibility that the verse could come to be written, I'm not sure.


created: 2002-07-02 19:35:16
subject: <b>Just some thoughts, dont know if they've been mentioned</b>
body:
Iv always thought that there would be a reason why Jordan is writing aboutRand and not someone in a previous third age. The answer i believe is tied in with the fact that each time the wheel spins there is a greater chance of variation. Thus it is highly possible that somehow the wheel could be broken. Now that would mean an end to channelling I think.<br /><br />I dont believe thwere can be an end to channeling after Tarmon Gaidon, largely because it is highly unreasonable to assume that all channelers will be wiped out. Did all channeleres get killed at end of the last age? nah course they didnt, and channling survived. <br /><br />Also just a thought, as we all know prophecy doesnt always turn out to be what it first appears to be, ie there is a degree of ambiguity. Could it not be possible that a Breaking could in actual fact mean that the WoT may actually be broken.? That would certainly 'break' the world methinks......throughout all the ages there has been a belief and knowledge of the WoT, and it would certainly be shattering to the world to fin out this was no longer true.<br /><br />We'll see, we'll see, and please dont shoot me, these are just thoughts.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/berelain.gif" border="0" /> = The Dude That Had Your Momma  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/berelain.gif" border="0" /> =<br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> = Tai'Shar Alsation <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> =<br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" />  The WoT's Repairman  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> The Third Destroyer <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /> The Great Lord Cheesemonger <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br />       LOGAIN FOR PRESIDENT</font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-12 18:09:02
subject: <b>Reply</b>
body:
I would not put it past Jordan to start every book like that just to get us thinking that, then boom the One Power is gone and the Age of Science is ushered in.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> They call me the Fireman <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-12-12 02:06:09
subject: <b>Min will live a long life too</b>
body:
Seeing as how Min is bonded to Rand the same way a warder is bonded to an Aes Sedai, and seeing as how Vandene? I believe, is about 170 or so years old and still has the same warder I would wager that warders live almost as long as their bonded aes sedai do. We know that the lose of a warder and vice versa is terribly tramatic on either person when one dies, do you think that an Aes Sedai would bond a warder knowing that he would die WELL before she did and she would have to suffer with that loss?<br />I dont think so.


created: 2002-01-15 00:14:20
subject: <b>Actually, they bonded the other way</b>
body:
Rand is bonded to Elayne, Aviendha and Min as their &quot;Warder.&quot;  I don't think there's any evidence that Warders give their bonder longer lives directly [obviously besides protecting them from getting killed early].<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Raistlan<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> I think you may have me confused with someone else. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-10 13:47:12
subject: <b>Hrm...</b>
body:
Okay, #1: RJ has said that there will be the possibility, to cite one fan, of &quot;bringing back all the dead guys and doing it again.&quot;  He dislikes series that are &quot;over&quot;.  Now, if you look, the AoL is basically our society, advanced, with the OP instead of electricity (no need to find electricity).  The academies were an idea from LTT and the AoL.  Take our world, advance it, and make it peaceful, and that's the AoL.


created: 2002-03-21 11:30:16
subject: <b>Just a slight comment rewarding the turning of the wheel</b>
body:
In one of the books (probably the guide as I have read that more recently than the rest) it states that each time the wheel turns fully the next turning will be slightly different, further from it's original design, we have(read as I assume) to then assume that this has all be going on for a VERY long time and that the wheel may well be wobbling severly and that the pattern now bears very little resemblence to it's original design.<br /><br />In which case anything can happen, and I believe that this is the premise on which everyone has been baseing(sp?) their theories.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">what? sorry,.....I'd stopped listening.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-11-05 11:39:49
subject: <b>It's All A Cycle</b>
body:
In Lord of Chaos, Chapter 18, Harid Fel has a conversation with Rand that, as far as I'm concerned, puts this whole issue to rest. The Wheel of Time spins through seven ages, and since the Age of Legends is just one age before the Third Age (I think... or maybe two?) that means there are five whole Ages to go until the Age of Legends comes around again.<br /><br />We also know that historical memory has a range of about two ages - so by the time the AoL is just about to arrive again (so we're at the end of the first age), the only knowledge existing about any age will be regarding the first and seventh ages, just as in Randland there's information regarding the second and third ages. Even if we allow for the possibility that during some ages more knowledge about the Wheel is known, the fact remains that 'even myth is long forgotten when the age that gave it birth comes again'.<br /><br />Harid Fel says that there must be ages on the opposite side of the wheel that no one knows anything about - and our modern-day Earth could very well be one of those ages. If Tarmon Gaidan comes to pass, perhaps the One Power is indeed lost to humanity - or perhaps this disaster happens in the fourth age, or the fifth age, completely removed from the stories, and our Earth is the seventh or first age. This would mean, of course, that at some point in OUR future (and, by extension, our past) the One Power would have to be DISCOVERED again and likely used to slowly issue in the Utopia that is the Age of Legends - allowing for the discovery of the Dark One and starting the whole cycle again.<br /><br />Bottom Line: The Age of Legends could be as far removed from our Earth as Randland is; there are seven whole ages around the wheel, and if we count our Earth as one, there's still four left as complete and utter mysteries.


created: 2003-04-10 19:32:15
subject: <b>sure</b>
body:
it might be that way, but i doubt it<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">They ran through the trees, and they ran through the forests,<br />They ran through the bushes where the beavers wouldn't go.<br />They ran so fast they forgot to take their culture,<br />Down the Mississippi to the Gulf of Mexico...o...o<br />-The War of 1812</font><p></p>


created: 2003-06-28 03:37:46
subject: <b>The other bit</b>
body:
You left out the most important bit of the quote (this is a paraphrase, but a close one):<br /><br />&quot;In one Age, called the Third Age by some, an Age long gone, an Age yet to come, a wind arose...&quot;<br /><br />It says it in the beginning of each book!


created: 2001-08-12 19:18:03
subject: <b>Men hav e had more than one wife before</b>
body:
If you look at many ancient cultures and some less ancient there has been no laws against having multiple wives. I mean Kings of Siam or whatever could have as many as they wanted and the women accepted it. So who is to say it is improbable to be a happy little love square?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">The Hammer of the Light,<br /><br />By The Grace of the Light,<br /><br />High King of the World,<br /><br />Lord of the Six Gates,<br /><br />Master of the Winds,<br /><br />Artur Hawking</font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-04 17:35:35
subject: <b>The love quartet....</b>
body:
According to inferences throughout the series and especially in WInter's Heart, I think Aviendha, Min and Elayne are really Ilyena split into three spearte bodies.  Min and Aviendha reacted the same way &quot;mirrored&quot;  before they bonded Rand.  Ilyena's soul was probably split up (possibly by the creator or wheel) this way in order to protect her. (possibly to insure the protection or aid the Dragon Reborn in succeeding at the last battle)<br /><br />Perhaps they will merge into one at the end but that sounds too simple of a solution. We do know the threesome will be present when The Dragon's body is on the bier according to Min's vieweings, which we know are always right. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Rand is Aiel after all and they do have at least two wives and now Aviendha and Elayne are first sisters, so why not become sister wives?  Besides, Elayne can't rule Andor and Cairihien and still &quot;enjoy&quot; a full time husband especially not one as busy as the Dragon.


created: 2002-03-27 06:07:01
subject: <b>Elayne, Min, or Aviendha</b>
body:
Elayne will live,<br />Min will die<br />Aviendha will live but on her own<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">President (&amp; only membeer) of the DWS: Wotmania Dyslexics Society <br /><br />&quot;Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake.&quot; <br />- Napoleon Bonaparte (1769-1821) <br /><br />ASI: I do spam somtimes</font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-10 17:11:32
subject: <b>Regarding Warder's?</b>
body:
Hey im new here so i was wondering if the warder's get the life span as would people that can channel. If they can then Min would live as long as Rand. just wonding thanks for the time<br /><br />


created: 2002-04-11 15:12:29
subject: <b>I really do care who lives</b>
body:
as long as Min dosn't get the short end of the stick<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/pharoah.gif" border="0" /> Where's that stupid sphinx when you need him? Here boy i'v got a riddle for ya! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perplexed.gif" border="0" /> Sodomy non sapiens<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perplexed.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /> Priest of an Unknown Goddess <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-03-04 17:27:05
subject: <b>Stupid</b>
body:
All of it is stupid . You know Rand is Going to die because the propicies said he would die unless there was a typo in them . Last Mat already fond the Daughter of the Nine Moons .


created: 2003-07-10 13:42:31
subject: <b>Um, no</b>
body:
Preposterous is right!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Life is not tried it is merely survived if  you're standing outside the fire.&quot;<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> Kwestfall06 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-02 11:51:56
subject: <b>The Source doesn't have to be gone</b>
body:
Maybe people just can't channel any longer.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><font face="old english text mt"><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />  Lord Avatar Darkstorm <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />  King of the Morning   <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />  Prince of the Day     <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />  He Who Rules the Night<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font> <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-15 15:50:25
subject: <b>wont die</b>
body:
Since Min, Elyane and Aviendha will be sitting &quot;three on a boat, and he who is dead yet lives&quot; or something like thast, and this seems to be after the Last Battle, it seems likely enough to assume the three girls will live through Tarmon Gaidon.


created: 2002-09-18 08:08:49
subject: <b>steddings are places without the one power</b>
body:
... and channelers are unable to stay there for very long as well, see the male channelers who sought refuge <br />from the taint in the stedding. They couldn't bring themselves to stay there even when going out and starting <br />to channel again meant going crazy and die. I think the only possible conclusion is that long stays in the <br />stedding are the same as being stilled and therefore in most cases fatal. This is one of my first attempts so<br />please be nice.


created: 2003-06-28 03:44:08
subject: <b>Well...</b>
body:
&quot;First of all, look at the repercussions on those who can channel. It would be the same as being stilled! For those of you worried about Rand, Elayne, and Aviendha living longer than Min with channeling - without, they likely won't live very long at all! The old Aes Sedai, Kinswomen, Windfinders, Wise Ones, etc., will probably die, and the young ones, including the Asha'man, will wish they had.&quot;<br /><br />Are these repercussions more important than defeating the DO? And do you really think the Wheel cares about such minor difficulties?<br /><br />&quot;Secondly, the One Power is what keeps the Wheel of Time turning. For those of you who think the Wheel will stop, look at Oliver's theory - the Fourth Age writings in the book. If you accept that the Wheel will keep going, how can the source that turns it be gone?&quot;<br /><br />I submit that the One Power does not turn the Wheel. It's been said by various characters, but can we be so sure they know the absolute truth? Also, Jordan has said that our modern world is one of the Ages. Where're the channelers, then, if the OP doesn't go away for a time?


created: 2004-05-25 11:29:45
subject: <b>response to rielle and the gleeman</b>
body:
I agree with rielle ,there will be channeling after the last battle but not sure exactly what form it will take. To the glee_man who's to say that people can't channel now. What about people who can heal and do reiki and bend spoons. Maybe thats the Talents we have nowadays Spoon Bending! admitedly it's a bit crap compared with Travelling and Foretelling.<br />I also don't think we need to worry about Min dying before the rest. Who knows maybe something in her bond will keep her alive cos we all know that no one has ever bonded a woman before Birgitte so who knows? Or maybe Nyneave Samitsu and Dammer Flinn will rediscover the healing from the AOL cos they all lived a lot longer in those days.<br />P.s. I'm new to this so someone else has probably thought of this before now!! ta<br />


created: 2004-08-08 16:47:08
subject: <b>Nicola's foretelling</b>
body:
Maybe this is irrelevant but in LOC pg. 353 Nicola has a foretelling: &quot;The lion sword, the dedicated spear,she who sees beyond. Three on a boat, and he who is dead yet lives. The great battle done, but the world not done with battle. The land divided by the return, and the guardians balance the servants. The future teeters on the edge of a blade.&quot;<br /><br />The Servants and Guardians mean the Aes Sedai and Asha'man and how would they be significant if they could no longer channel? So channeling will certainly not mark the end of the third age, though i admit it may be forgotten/lost in the distant future.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;He is such a hypochondriac. I wonder, how many times has he had anthrax this week?&quot;<br />-Olivia(re:Munch)<br /><br />&quot;What? did you see your life flash before your eyes? Cuppa tea - cuppa tea - almost got shagged -cuppa tea.&quot;<br />-Spike (re:Giles)</font><p></p>


created: 2005-02-20 07:54:27
subject: <b>No...</b>
body:
There will be no channeling after TG. Just because no one can channel doesnt mean that there is no True Source to drive the wheel. They'll be the true source and OP, just no one to use it.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">-Sabin<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-07-08 00:33:54
subject: <b>Completely agree</b>
body:
with MalkieriChik's reasoning. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /> Im happy someone has (to my mind) finally worked out whether we'll have channelling later on or not. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">i have severed all my former allegiances to The Forsaken Who Shall Not Be Named Any More Because She Was Dumb Enough To Get Captured (TFWSNBNAMBSWDETGC).<br /><br />sigh. now i must find a new forsaken to root for.</font><p></p>


created: 2005-10-02 21:29:54
subject: <b>Forgetfulness</b>
body:
It's not a matter of the One Power being 'destroyed', it's just that, given time, we will forget how to channel. Once upon a time, all member of our species knew innately how to hunt wild animals - I'm sure most of those who dwell in cities have forgotten this skill, through lack of need. Perhaps once Mat's industrial pioneering discoveries will make the One Power less useful, and the people will simply not bother to learn to channel when they can learn to forge machines.


created: 2009-07-05 21:26:43
subject: <b>oh well</b>
body:
if peaple die after it is all said and done it wont make a difference.The story is about what will save the world not who will live in it .I hope that the major peeps dont die but they will sooner or later and that is the way it gos.


created: 2001-04-07 00:00:00
subject: <b>Christian references in WOT</b>
body:
Firstly, I think that Rand WILL die at the last battle, but will be "resurrected" by Nynaeve (remember that in the AOL, Aes Sedai could heal anyone with even the faintest spark of life).<p>Secondly, I think that the Children of the Light are not too dissimilar to the inquisitors in the Spanish Inquisition, who had quite strong feelings about their religion. The cloaks they wear remind me of ceremonial robes. </p><p>A bit more tenuous: Maybe Rand will eventually have a close group of say 12/13 Asha'man and one of them will betray him. I haven't read WH yet, so maybe that is in store with Taim (Judas?). Also, 13 as the maximum number for a linked circle could be a reference to the 12 disciples and JC.</p>


created: 2001-12-03 12:42:52
subject: <b>I don't think so....</b>
body:
I doubt Rand will die during the last battle. I have another theory all of my own. I believe it will be Lews Therin that will die during TG. Remember, the verse says the blood of the &quot;Dragon&quot;, while Rand is the Dragon reborn. LTT will be pulled out of TAR during TG. Foolishness you say? Remember, the precedent has been set with Birgitte and I seriously doubt it was done for no reason at all. I see very little reason for such an unprecedented event if RJ wasn't setting up something else for the plot of the series. Also, I just don't see the main character of the series billed snuffed out. Once out of TAR, LTT could be killed during TG and his death would fulfill the prophecy.<br /><br />A few refernces to support my theory...<br /><br />In ACoS, Ch 33 - Min has a viewing about Rand merging with someone else, one of the dies, the other doesn't. I thnk she forsees LTT death at TG.<br /><br />LoC, Ch14 - A foretelling from Nicola Treehill, &quot;The lion sword, the dedicated spear, she who sees beyond. Three on the boat, and he who is dead yet lives.&quot; Obviously Elayne, Aviendha, and Min surrounding Rand, who still lives. Who is dead? LTT<br /><br />Anyway, just a few random thoughts about TG and Rand.<br /><br />


created: 2002-05-04 09:19:25
subject: <b>remember MIn's viewing of rand?</b>
body:
at his pyre stands three grieving women that love him. One dangerous(avi)one royal(ela) and one other (min) cant remember what book i saw it in i think min and elayne were chatting. so none will die. sorry you did work hard nice try.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-28 22:04:35
subject: <b>Of Course</b>
body:
No shoot, Sherlock! Of course Rand's going to die! He HATES being involved in Daes Dae'mar. No man alive could stand being married to 3 women. And he has that future to look forward to if he lives... they call it mercy killing, folks. Mercy killing.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> former Akutenshi member <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> Organizer of TRACS <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> member of the Trigger fan club <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />Trigger fears: <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/berelain.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> I'm aliena's jig-dancing partner <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> jealous? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /> If I'm here, consider yourself blessed by my presence <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-15 05:21:02
subject: <b>People minding &quot;sharing&quot;</b>
body:
The concept of women not minding the sharing of a man is not all that unrealistic.  I'm not a lady killer by a LONG shot, but have found that if one is honest and forthright about one's desire to be romantically involved with more than one woman at a time, the women tend to be accepting of it.  In fact, I've only met one woman who objected.<br /><br />I'm now married and hold to one woman (my word is my bond), but do not find plural marriages to be objectionable so long as all involved agree to the situation.<br /><br />Subbie<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">No matter how you shake and dance...<br /><br />When you die you're food for worms and ants!</font><p></p>


created: 2002-12-30 17:22:35
subject: <b>hellooooooo</b>
body:
always had a problem with this idea of healing even a spark of life, and this meaning rand can come back after he's dead. surely if there's a spark of life you're not dead?<br /><br />but, remember when mat got busted at rhuidean and rand had to do cpr. mat was dead then wasn't he? but there was still a spark of life.<br /><br />so, maybe rand will get KO'd but not quite KO'd, as it were.<br /><br />am i making any sense?


created: 2003-03-08 20:57:46
subject: <b>Wow, I wrote this idea ages ago</b>
body:
I still think Rand will die at Tarmon Gai'don, but I think that Nyenaeve will figure out how to Heal death.<br /><br />Robert Jordan *never* spends books and books telling people something is impossible w/out breaking the aforementioned impossibility.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Hello.  I'm Kamui of the Dragons of Earth.  I'm going to kill you all.&quot;  -- X Therapy</font><p></p>


created: 2004-06-11 22:36:00
subject: <b>Anti-Christs?</b>
body:
Anti-Christs in the Christian religion come after the death of Jesus unless you suggest that LTT was Jesus and Rand is Jesus reborn which doesn't make sense. Also there are many anti-christs but only one Anti-Christ. The capital letter meant a lot in Greek and Arabic so the stress indicated can change your meaning.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" />Far Aldazar Din <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" />Wolfbrothers Unite!!<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" />I came to bloody rescue you. Burn me if I expected to be treated as if I'd come to steal a pie. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-08-27 17:50:31
subject: <b>Well...</b>
body:
Well...for all of you, I liked the idea of the Jesus and Rand comparasion. It made sense. Course, I'm a Cristian, so I believed it.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Chaos, panic, disorder-my work here is done.<br /><br />How do I set a laser printer for stun?<br /><br />Raine Sedai<br />Aes Sedai of the Green Ajah<br />Bonded to my Warders, Battle Ajah and ShadowAxe</font><p></p>


created: 2007-08-02 17:08:23
subject: <b>Two Cents from an old Malkieri Hunter</b>
body:
I'm afraid I do not beleive Rand will truly die at Tarmon Gai'don.  This lead up to the fight feels very similar to Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows, in which (spoiler warning) Harry has to give himself up to death, but returns and lives happily ever after.  As far as the second breaking of the world goes, Rand going completely mad and having to be restrained, possibly by the ex-Damane who will &quot;help him to die&quot;, is likely, but I doubt that that will be it for him.  (Of course, all I may be sensing is that Rand will be reborn as the Wheel turns.)


created: 2002-01-17 01:27:45
subject: <b>A very plausible idea</b>
body:
The idea that the heroes would win by breaking the wheel is one that I have had for years, and it has only gotten stronger with each subsequent reading of the series.  Lets look at some facts from the stories...<br />One of the Prophesies of the Dragon states that the day of Tarmon Gaidon will dawn twice.  This suggests to me the usage of balefire (as it has a tendency to mess with time).  Also remember the many warnings which we have heard regarding the usage of balefire.  In the age of legends, people stopped using it because they could feel the pattern weakening.  Moiraine explained one of the theories that balefire could unravel the pattern and make it reweave itself.  That would most certainly redult in &quot;breaking the wheel.&quot;<br />Now lets think about the fact that the Dark One is powerless against balefire (as evidenced by his inability to reincarnate the Forsaken who ran afoul of it).  Next step, how would the pattern react to a major thread not only being cut out of it, but burned?  Say the Dark One himself?<br />This is my theory of the details of Tarmon Gaidon.  There will be a huge battle at Shayol Ghul which will culminate in the seal being broken and the Dark One loosed.  Rand will be there waiting with several Asha'man and Aes Sedai.  They will link through Chaedon Kal, Callandor, and every last angreal and sa angreal they can get their hands on.  With such a load of the Power, Rand will fire balefire at the Dark One.  His wound will explode open with the presence of the Dark One (as it tends to bleed when in proximity to the power of the Dark One.  He will bleed to death, but his balefire will hit the Dark One and burn him out of the pattern.  How far?  I don't know, but the day of Tarmon Gaidon will dawn again as the pattern reweaves after having the Dark One's strand burned out of it.  Only now, it will be a pattern without the Dark One.  Rand will be alive again (fulfilling the prophesy that in order for him to live, he must die).  And the story will be able to resolve, allowing everyone to live happily ever after.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> Proud Papa <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> Founder of the Wotmania Writers' Guild <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lan.gif" border="0" /> Warder to no one. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-22 07:04:28
subject: <b>just to add to this a little.........</b>
body:
after balefiring the 'DO' and dying, Rand will be 'reborn' or cometo live again because of the balefire.  He will also have lost a hand whilst doing so, the power of the balefire being so extreme that his hand is atomised, he passes out, no one recognises him when he comes too and he wanders the world, or something.<br /><br />I wish I could be arsed to write better posts.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/myrddraal.gif" border="0" />Lord_Foul<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/disapprove.gif" border="0" />One day I'll spend more than 2 minutes on a post<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/disapprove.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-01 08:17:18
subject: <b>Agree</b>
body:
I agree.<br /><br /><br /><br />Warlord of Gore<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">-Warlord <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/troll.gif" border="0" /><br />Join the WASPT. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /><br />You might get a free crowbar.<br /><br /><font color="dark orange"><b>C</b></font><font color="orange">y</font><font color="dark orange">a</font> <font color="orange">K</font><font color="dark orange">o</font><font color="orange">r</font><font color="dark orange">y</font><font color="black">.</font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/frown.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><b><font face="Comic Sans MS"><font color="green">Terribly </font><font color="brown">Lucky</font> <font color="green">And</font> <font color="brown">UnDeserving</font> <font color="green">Warder</font> <font color="brown">to</font> <font color="green">~BELA~</font></font></b> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Member of the wotmania Starcraft Clan. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-03-08 12:55:37
subject: <b>Hate to be the nay-sayer, but...</b>
body:
...it just won't work, folks. The weaving of the Pattern is the weaving of time. The Dark One is not seeking a new world under his control, he is seeking the destruction of everything. You have to differentiate between the Dark One's goals and the lies he used to get the Forsaken and Darkfriends to do his dirty work. The Dark One is the anti-thesis of the Creator, ergo, a Destroyer.<br /><br />It is not merely Rand who would stop being reborn. Everyone is someone else reborn, every life a thread spun into the Pattern by the wheel. The Wheel of Time is, well, time, and to destroy it would be to destroy Time. Even if you could break the wheel without destroying a pattern (a far from sure thing) it would be like the world would simply stop progressing. Everyone would be frozen, because time would simply cease to pass. <br /><br />In the universe of the wheel is an equilibrium. Life and Death, Light and Shadow, Saidin and Saidar, One Power and True Power, Creator and Dark One, Yin and Yang. It was made that way, and the tie you are referring to is the way life is supposed to be. <br /><br />Nice theory, but I fear it is mistaken.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Honey, come to bed.&quot;<br />&quot;I can't. Somebody is wrong on the Internet.&quot;<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> Still a Stubborn supporter of Taimandred after KoD!  <br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-09-15 16:16:00
subject: <b>More reasons it wont work.</b>
body:
I'm gonaa leave the actul theory alone, Dannymac247 pretty much killed it.  these are problems with the commenter theories.  Firstly, the <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /> is outside the Pattern and therefore has no thread, so balefire would have little to no effect on him.  Second, even if the seals are broken, the <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /> won't be fully free:  He wasn't when they were put there, so why should he be now? Third, if the <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/darkone.gif" border="0" /> does break all the way free, he's won because if he can do that, then hecan do whatever he wants.  Oh, and if even a lit bit of balefire touches you, you die.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>It's not apples and oranges, but no one paying attention could compare these apples without noticing: <br />(a) one is 12 times bigger and <br />(b) both of them are rutabagas.</i></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-02 13:59:56
subject: <b>A simple metaphor</b>
body:
Try pulling your hand off with that same hand.  <br />That is about the same thing Rand would have to do to take the OP out of the pattern.  He would, after all, have to use the OP to do so.  Of course, if the OP is  removed, the wheel and the universe stops,and everything is frozen in a suspended, timeless state until the Creator decides otherwise.  Hmmm....  So it could happen, and noone would ever notice, because time would stop. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-07-02 15:38:34
subject: <b>But we're already after the Last Battle</b>
body:
Remember, this age has come and gone, so we are both before and after the Tarmon Gaidon.<br /><br />Perhaps the whole point of Jordan's story is the breaking of this cycle, but he seems rather fond of it...


created: 2003-03-08 13:04:30
subject: <b>Yes!!!!</b>
body:
Very sound thinking. I particularly like the bit concerning an age when the use of Saidar is restricted in some way. There could be various reasons for this (Maybe Saidin is simply discovered first?)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Honey, come to bed.&quot;<br />&quot;I can't. Somebody is wrong on the Internet.&quot;<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /> Still a Stubborn supporter of Taimandred after KoD!  <br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-05-08 09:48:19
subject: <b>Excellent</b>
body:
This is a very good, well thought out theory.  (I especially like the metaphor of the hands)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Brianne Aes Sedai, First Weaver of the Yellow Ajah<br />Bonded to Daniel Gaidin<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />High Priestess of academic theories<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" />Amyrlin Seat of the Wheel of Time Club in Oklahoma City<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /> <br />'Helluo librorum'<br />'Bene legere saecla vincere.' <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-11-27 00:58:31
subject: <b>True Power</b>
body:
As Prophet224 stated &quot;You can't pull your hand off with the same hand.&quot;  What if the True Power is the other hand?  The Dark One and the Creator would be two sides to the same coin.  The Dark One breaks free, and removes the One Power, then seals the creator. Then the Creator gets somepeople to channel the One Power directly from him and drill the bore, then he chooses his Nae'ablis equivalent, <br />and the Dark one calls up his &quot;Dragon&quot;.  They meet, if the &quot;Dragon&quot; wins, then nothing happens, if the &quot;Nae'ablis&quot; wins then the creator puts the one power back into the Wheel.  Each supernatural being trying to sustain power.  Now we have to possibilities, Rand kills the Dark One and the Creators reigns supreme, or the cycle continues, if Rand seals the Dark One he saves all that he cares about.  If he loses then the Dark One gains control and tries to kill the Creator, then it repeats itself.


created: 2007-01-16 23:01:45
subject: <b>weaving</b>
body:
we have always been told, In an age yet to come in an age long past. All ages come again, there is no end to this struggle. TG is a realative term, this will be the last battle for this turning, then the wheel will turn again, restarting the whole cycle, and the never ending weaving.


created: 2001-06-11 02:13:42
subject: <b>thoughts</b>
body:
hello,<br />I don't truly know about this whole fain deal either but Im not sure all the theories are making fain into a god they are just making him the spreader of man made evil.  Antd the other thing is i agree with you, i think.  The &quot;third age&quot; is completly arbitrary cause if you can't remember what happened two ages a go how do you even know there are seven  maybe their are eight sometimes or maybe there aren't any and it just so happens that history is doomed to repeat itself(sometimes in an orderly manner sort of like fashion being recycled every 20 years god i hate headbands <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> only the darkone could be worse.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where did these Skimmers come from?  I mean if they didn't want to read the book they could have just Traveled to another author.  Why risk arriving at the wrong destination?  Why risk falling into darkness?</font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-16 18:52:51
subject: <b>Hmmmm.......</b>
body:
I agree, because I remember reading (somewhere) that the DO's Power is inimcal to the SL evil in Fain now.  So, if Fain became the new DO, he would probably gain all of the DO's powers.  That would probably be bad for him, because of the SL evil in him now.<br /><br />p.s. SL is Shadar Logoth, for those numbskulls who hadn't figured that out.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">ph34r!</font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-03 17:38:28
subject: <b>Totally agree</b>
body:
The whole point of the Last Battle is to decide once and for all what will happen.  Rand and his pals win, then life goes on without the Dark One.  I also think Fain will finally die in the Last Battle.  Don't know who will kill him, but I would sure love the chance <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" />.


created: 2002-05-19 18:49:35
subject: <b>Fain: Mutation or Rewoven Thread?</b>
body:
Fain is one of the most interesting and confusing characters in the series. We really have not gotten much more than factual information about what has happened to him thus far and there has been no mention of anyone like him in a previous Age. This wouldn't be as much of a problem if he were someone like Slayer who the main protagonists have not had much contact with, yet Fain is a major player in the main plot. He seriously wounded Rand, he whacked two asha'man in Far Madding and he's been running around with a mysterious and powerful dagger with ties to both the Forsaken (Aginor in particular) and the protagonists (Mat and Rand in particular) And if everything he did before Winter's Heart weren't enough, now he appears to be gaining strange powers, unlike anything we have witnessed before except for the True Power, yet his mutual hatred for the Shadow would leave this as an unlikely option. (for those who don't know or remember what I'm talking about here is the quote from when Rand and Lan encounter Fain in Far Madding, &quot;With a smile {Fain} raised his free hand. Torval and Gedwyn came up the stairs with their cloakcs over their arms... &quot;Without thought, rand twisted his wrists in Cutting the Wind and immediately followed with Unfolding the Fan. The illusion of dead men come back to life vanished, and Fain leaped back with a shriekd, blood straming down the side of his face&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> What I am speculating is that Fain is a character the likes of which the Weave has not seen for a very long time (or perhaps never) He is the product of the tainted ways, Mashadar, Mordeth, the Dark One and the ruby hilted dagger. He is an amalgamation of hatred and mistrust who's origins are well known and yet his purpose is not. What I am proposing is that the reason his purpose is not known is because nothing like him has ever existed before, or if it has than the memory of it has faded completely.


created: 2002-09-12 13:04:18
subject: <b>I agree that Fain will not replace the Dark One because</b>
body:
there is only One Dark One. That's it. And, despite lots of speculating, I don't think it would be possible to kill the Dark One. The Dark One is a fundamental component of the Pattern. He was sealed away by the Creator at the moment of creation, right? If the Creator could/would only seal the DO away, what makes anyone think Rand or Fain or anyone else be able to kill him? Plus, there's never been any mention of killing the DO. Defeating, yes. Repairing the Bore, i.e., sealing the DO away, yes. Killing, no.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />I need a nap.</font><p></p>


created: 2004-02-27 15:16:10
subject: <b>Never heard</b>
body:
of Fain becoming the DO... Where do these people come up with this? wheeloftimefan<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Just another post by<br />SN J-Whitt USN<br /><br />http://www.nationstates.net/whitt-ville</font><p></p>


created: 2004-03-09 17:10:03
subject: <b>third age?</b>
body:
&quot;So unless we get a new Dark One (and a new Creator?) at the end of each Third Age, then I don't see how Fain can be the next Dark One. And if a new Dark One is created every Third Age, why is it the *Third* Age? Surely the Creation, and the first imprisonment of the Dark One, and all the other mytho-historical stuff should be either First Age, or before Time officially began. &quot; i thought in either WH or CoS it said it had moved on to the Fourth Age. Alright. <br /><br />Fain can't be the Dark One later, he's something completely new and that's one of the reasons why TG will literally be the last battle. either that or the wheel is veeery slow, in which case i think that the whole thing with rand being the lews therin of this wheel-turning is false. if its been the third age for so long, i think the age of legends might have just been the first age of this wheel since there are so many differences between the two dragons.


created: 2004-03-15 20:34:07
subject: <b>Here is My Take</b>
body:
Ok fain becoming new dark one definetly not<br /><br />Fain is on the other hand the light getting back at the dark<br /><br />Think about it RJ has had lots of essentially good people be used by the Dark One to give the Light one hell of headache. Payback is you know what and its name is Padan Fain, I mean, what has he done bad for the characters. Ok now you are saying , &quot;he stole the bloody dagger and Horn of Valera,&quot; He brought Rand to Toman Head which allowed him to confront Ishamael, prove he is the dragon, free Egwene, Nyevea, and Elayne and give Mat a chance to blow the Horn of Valera before some Aes Sedai flunky could. Ok, now you are saying, &quot;He has been out to kill Rand since day one.&quot; He has but is too weak to succeed because as we have seen even with the dagger he cannot fight the one power directly and his wound in Rand's side helped him figure out how to deal with the Taint and is helping to hold the dark one's taint at bay by fighting it. Also, his mission is to stop anyone except himself from taking Rand out. So probably he will attack even the dark one to take Rand out himself screeming, &quot;my precious,&quot; whoops wrong story. Finally you say, &quot;he has been a high ranking darkfriend and spotted Rand for the shadowspawn.&quot; Good argument but again, all it did to Rand, Mat, and Perrin was piss them off and give them something to fight for. Ok I am being an unemotional bastard about the true evilness of Padan and yes folks, I do believe he should be wiped out of existence, but, many people hold the same view of spies and espionage by other countries. Only problem, everyone and I mean everyone uses them, it is just when they get caught do problems arise.


created: 2004-10-22 10:42:30
subject: <b>Um-hmm</b>
body:
I always thought the people who said Fain would be the new Dark One had just been playing too much FFX.  <br /><br />And I'm kinda uncomfortable with the idea that this is really the *Last Battle*.  Is that even possible?  It seems to me that in the world RJ has created, there needs to be a primary source for both good and evil.  The WoT world is, after all, defined by equal and opposing forces.  So wouldn't the destruction of the DO just mean the end of the world?<br /><br />Joiya00 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perplexed.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Joiya <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br />Under the light I vow to speak no word that is not true</font><p></p>


created: 2005-04-05 15:56:11
subject: <b>Well. . . Maybe. . if. .</b>
body:
I'm not saying that agree with the whole Padan becoming the Dark One Theory, I will say it's origibal.  Think of this, RJ was said that he came up with the ending before anything else.  I believe he said something like &quot; Now wouldn't that be an interesting ending&quot; or something like that in a interview.  Plus we all know that WoT and LoTr has the habit of running the same course (Padan/Gollum etc.)  <br />     Not look at it like this, lets say RJ was reading RIngs, and all the sudden, &quot;What if Gollum got the ring and turned him into the next Dark Lord?&quot;  Granted a dark Lord with a dirty halfnaked Butt Flapp Dark Lord but a Dark Lord none the less.  I know I know, The DO is all powerful in every age.  But, what if hes not, what if the balance is how the people of Randland see him, and not an actual equal to the creator, because he can't be if he was sealed away by the creator.  The balance is there cause before fear the DO has much as they love the Creator.  Now, we really don't know exactly what is happening to Fain, except that he is becoming the human essense of hate and fear.  He brings death to everything and everywhere he goes.  And with the soul of Shadar Logoth, he is prolly immortal now too.  It seems that what ever is festering in Fain, is just becoming stronger and stronger.<br /><br />    Now, what if Rand did infact kill The DarkOne, he balefired it, whatever.(lord I hope not)  In just that insisent, the Pattern will search for something to regain that balance.  And then is when Fain will become something more then he was, something very much like the Shadow.  The Evil that destroyed SL was something that no man could stop, Aes Sedai almost feared it more then anything of the Shadow, and that of it has something as bad as Balefire.  Even the Shadow seemed to fear it.<br /> <br />   Before Rand dies, for whatever reason, he is able to trap this &quot;Shadow Fain&quot; into the prison that held the DarkOne, with no bore of course.  Rand is dead, balance restored, and the third age comes to an end.<br />    Maybe this happens every third age, maybe that is why they call this the &quot;Final Battle&quot; even when we know there is going to be more fights with the shadow.  And Since only Rand and Co. would now the truth, people wouldn't know of Fain, the DarkOne's own name would be past down through the ages.  Thom said once that Rand would be lucky if they remebered his name in the next age.<br />     What ever Fain is would continue to hate what Rand is, the Dragon, the Soul that will forever counter the DarkOne.  Maybe even Fain would lose his memory of ever ebing human.  It would explain why the DO seems to have human emotion like anger.<br /><br />     Like I said, I'm not sure if I believe it, I just like it cause it's original.  So I just like it when all possibilities are produced.  So flame away guys.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" />


created: 2005-05-25 16:38:02
subject: <b>I think there is...</b>
body:
a good chance that he will.  The creator is considered the essence of all that is good, therefore, the DO should be the essence of all that is evil.  But he is not.  This is where Fain steps in.  He is gathering inside him all the evil of the world which places him as more of an essence of evil than the DO.  Yes, the DO is more powerful...right now...but lets see how long that lasts.


created: 2006-10-03 16:47:08
subject: <b>my 2 cents</b>
body:
I think that Fain becoming the dark one is totally plausible, here&#8217;s why.<br />The Dark One has a name Shi&#8217;Tan (this bothers me) since the DO has a name it is very easy for me to believe that he was once a man. If there was a religion like Christianity with angels and such, I would believe Shi&#8217;Tan to be a &#8220;Fallen Angel&#8221; type, but there is nothing like that, it&#8217;s just the creator (who dose not have a name) and the dark one. It is my belief that at the end of the last turning of the wheel Shi&#8217;Tan was a man who was hell bent on distruction and control, pitting himself against the Creator, creation and free will. A hero Similar to Lews Therin Telemon or Rand defeated him, but Shi&#8217;Tan was too powerful to be totally destroyed.  So with the help of the Creator, said hero sealed him out of the pattern. Which started the new turning of the wheel, knowledge from one age to the next is forgotten relatively easily.  So by the age of legends everyone had forgotten about Shi&#8217;Tan and his quest for power. When they broke open Shi&#8217;Tan&#8217;s prison he spilled out all his hate and power and then the war of power. <br /><br />Now some of you will say that this is a stretch and there are many variations of this idea that cover all of the questions that even I pose to myself but this post is long enough as it is.  The main idea is that the dark one is a man and can be killed they just didn&#8217;t have the means the last time around (Shadar Logath dagger). I think the Shi&#8217;Tan will kill rand, Fain will be outraged and stab the dark one. The dark one thinking himself invincible now that his rival is dead will take the blow and be destroyed. They will then (maybe with the help of the creator) imprison Fain out of the pattern. I think there is a new dark one every turning, but the same power every time someone just has to claim it ( thus the endless meetings between dark one and Dragon)<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/crazy.gif" border="0" /> One by one, the penguins are slowly stealing my sanity <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/oh.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2007-06-10 01:05:44
subject: <b>Fain is not going to be the dark one</b>
body:
This is quite simple, DO is the embodiment of Evil. He is not like a fallen angel like satan, he is probably the creators little brother be he was a bit weaker so he got imprisioned and tries to break free.<br /><br />One thing to note: i'm not sure which books this is in, but it's when Rand goes to Shadar Logoth. LTT told Rand that he can sense evil and that if the DO can choose a place to live he will live here. Check it out I think it is in ACoS.<br /><br />Which shows that Fain will not become the DO because DO is the master of Evil, and everything else that is Evil is his minion. They don't even need to like the DO.


created: 2008-09-06 10:49:38
subject: <b>Maybe, maybe not...</b>
body:
Beeing the first one to mention Padan Fain as a new Dark One ages ago (Haven&#180;t been here for years) I can&#180;t seem to remember my exact points then, but...<br /><br />First out - It&#180;s a theory, nothing else.<br /><br />Second. RJ &quot;borrowed&quot; inspiration for this great series from a number of sources, not the least one the norse mythologi.<br />As a swede and a historyinterested one too, I have read a great deal norse myths.<br />After the last battle (ie &quot;Ragnar&#246;k&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />, the world will rise again. There will be the surviving gods, humanity will once again fill the world AND there will be evil in it too...<br />A new evil...<br /><br />So, if Tarmon Gaidon is the LAST last battle, and this string in the story really is inspired from norse mythology, there might very well be a new Dark One.<br /><br />And who would better fit this role? After all, Padan can&#180;t be in the story just as another &quot;cannonfodder&quot;-personality for Rand to defeat along the way. We have all of the forsaken for that! (Even if they don&#180;t know of it of course...)


created: 2001-06-25 06:56:42
subject: <b>That's not possible</b>
body:
It is not possible that Rand breakes the Wheel. If the Wheel breakes,the world is no more. Sinc we have that 'And the glory of the light did shine upon him, and the peace of the light he did give men, binding nations to him, making one of many, yet the shards of heart did give wounds, and what once did come again' from the <i>4th</i> Age, the world DID survive.<br />And.. '..what once was DID COME AGAIN'.. since this man has seen the 4th Age(he'sliving there) then he must know what happened in the 3rd. And what did come again, was, of course, not ..oh, god, how do you spell that? ahm.. Well, you say it 'nesseserally' so you get what I mean. Not - thatword- but the wars that wasin the AL. Maybe he's not evenrefering to the AG. I don't know what it means, I just feel lik it's important.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i><br /><br />Some times nothin' is a real cool hand.</i></font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-16 03:23:27
subject: <b>Sha'rah</b>
body:
Moridin himself suggests that the Fisher could be a distant memory of 'Al Thor'. What I find intersting is the analogy between the game and the battle between light and shade... is RJ telling us something here? The Fisher is the key, controlling him can lead to victory, but is also dangerous - there is a move by which the one controlling the Fisher can lose <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> . I think of the ongoing battle and the coming Tarmon Gaidon as a game between the DO and the Creator. Perhaps at the end, the DO will 'control' Rand (one way or another), but Rand's death will mean the DO's defeat??<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Treetop level, man<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-27 01:11:24
subject: <b>to Starglider</b>
body:
WOW! I did not catch that at all when I read it. I can see what you are saying. It makes sense. How would the DO control Rand? Will anyone realise he is being controlled by the DO? If so how will they react? Some Aes Sedai are already paranoid about him being influenced by the wrong people.<br />Good thoughts Starglider.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">DEATH TO ALL CLOWNS.<br />The only good clown is a dead clown.</font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-24 00:13:16
subject: <b>Nah, its the fisher king</b>
body:
Sorry, but no matter how old this game is, it's kinda unlikely that it has survived all the way from the last Age of Prophecy. Its probably more likely that it came from the Fisher King, who was in one of the king Arthur stories(I forget it exactly) and had an unhealing wound in his side. Its possible that Rand was the Fisher King in a previous life, but it seems more likely that the game only had to survive a couple of Ages rather than the full seven.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">King Paitar<br />King of Arafel<br />Shy newbie <br />Member of the AoC. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />&quot;Renegades with fancy gauges, slay the plauge for it's contagious, pull the plug and take the stages, throw away your television now!&quot;- RHCP</font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-26 20:21:27
subject: <b>question</b>
body:
i'm ignorant to a lot of WoT details, so could someone explain to me what the Fisher does in the game, and what is the objective to the game. thanks <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">===========================<br />The cynics are right nine times out of ten.<br />HENRY MENCKEN<br />Funny how just when you think life can't possibly get any worse it suddenly does.<br />DOUGLAS ADAMS<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> I attempt to make everyone&#8217;s day a little happier. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-11-17 04:58:30
subject: <b>fisher</b>
body:
when playing the game, moridin comments on how the fisher came &quot;from a dim remnent of a memory of rand al'thor.&quot;  he is also angered by this because he believes he has a right to the knoledge, being linked to rand as he believes.<br /><br />if i rememer right, egwene also has a dream of rand with a bandage over his eyes, holding a hand to his side, where blood spills out.


created: 2002-12-03 00:02:59
subject: <b>Here's a question or two</b>
body:
If the DO and the Creator are playing Sha'rah where Rand is the Fisher, then how does Moridin know how to play the game?  Where does he fit in, and why does he want &quot;knowledge?&quot;  Is he trying to surpass or equal the DO?<br /><br />We all know that Shaidar Haran is &quot;The Hand of the DO.&quot;  But what is Moridin?  How does he play into this big mess and why is he using the True Source?  There's no place in Sha'rah with the Creator side and the DO side with Rand being the Fisher, for Moridin to sneak in there.<br /><br />I'm speculating, but some have claimed that Moridin is Ishamael reborn.  If this is so, then based on what we know of Ishamael's past wishes of wanting to be the DO or surpassing him in power, if you will, then it would make sense that he would want to increase his status as pawn of the DO to the player of the Sha'rah game for the Shadow.  <br /><br />I am knew at this so please help me out.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Would you fight the Dark One for a Klondike Bar???<br /><br />I would . . .</font><p></p>


created: 2003-03-25 10:59:36
subject: <b>the wheel will brake!</b>
body:
I think that the wheel will brake, although i'm not sure if the braker will be Rand.<br />The DO wanted to brake the wheel, so that his reign will continue forever. Maybe Rand got the idea from him, or the DO somehow manage to brake the wheel, and then Rand killedimprisoned him.<br />And about the new age - maybe they decided it was a new age right after Termon Gaidon, not much much later, and just continue like our world...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /> an angel reborn <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-05-16 21:11:35
subject: <b>What the hell!?!</b>
body:
Man, I don't even vaguely remember writing that...<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="images/personalsmilies/801.gif" /><br /><br /><i>Bitter, twisted and better than you.</i></font><p></p>


created: 2003-06-03 18:30:37
subject: <b>sayings of ishmahell</b>
body:
In the first books does ishmahell not spend a lot of time saying that this cycle is different that here the issue will be decided for all time one way or another that this last battle is truly the LAST BATTLE?  He may be wrong but I would not expect him to be since he seemed to be right about most everything else...


created: 2005-12-29 02:17:37
subject: <b>Dark One Destroyed?</b>
body:
I would really like to see the dark one destroyed.(fullstop) However im not sure how RJ can possibly manage to work that into the story while maintaining credability.  I could forgive a lot to see that happen.  IF...the dark one is defeated, destroyed and dead (is this possible?) the wheel of time will be broken because the past cycle could not possible be repeated.  Also it would provide a very neat ending to a massive series of books, satisfying all readers.  <br /><br />As i type i think of more possibilities, dark one dead - mortal - Possibly human before becomming more - another human could rise to take his place - Rand?? or please, please Demandred! - If the bigass sa angreal have enough power to remove the dark one they may have the power to create one too.<br /><br />As for the fisher.  Just because that occured in the past doesn't mean it was to happen the the future.<br /><br />I believe the wheel of time will not be broken however it would be cool if it was!


created: 2008-10-18 08:43:00
subject: <b>No way</b>
body:
If you break the wheel you destroy time and create caos just like the dark lord wants.BUT maybe he breaks the cycle somehow.


created: 2009-07-10 11:51:44
subject: <b>re:starglider</b>
body:
Picking up on Stargliders comment &quot;The Fisher is the key, controlling him can lead to victory, but is also dangerous - there is a move by which the one controlling the Fisher can lose&quot; and also the early comments from Ishamael about the dark one controlling the Dragon (as has apparently happened in the past) - can anyone see a way where Rand has to surrender to the dark one before he can beat him? Perhaps severing the connection between the Dark Ones true power and the one source? I don't think RJ would have come up with the True Power if it didn't have some major part to play in the books - it's been awhile since i've read any of them but I cant think of any big effects its had yet - can anyone correct me?


created: 2001-04-02 00:00:00
subject: <b>One thing to point out</b>
body:
Just one of the points stood out to me as having little merit.  The Green Man is a Nym; created in the Age of Legends and therefore could not have been around since "the beginning of time."  It was just the beginning of time from his perspective.  Most of the other points are a bit more valid, in my opinion, even though we really know nothing about the last time the Third Age came around.  All that said, I am sticking with the theory that Tarmon Gai'don is just one more turn in the Wheel of Time; not the end of the world.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Arien <br /><br /><i><font color='blue" size="2'>nobody said it was easy/nobody said it would be this hard</font></i></font><p></p>


created: 2003-06-28 03:35:17
subject: <b>proof!</b>
body:
It sounds good, but give me some proof!!!<br /><br />You list all these &quot;facts&quot; and don't support them.


created: 2003-08-13 14:16:52
subject: <b>But...</b>
body:
The Nym was from the AoL as rand saw while in rhuidean.<br />And how do you know none of that stuff ever happened before? Without any evidence from the age before AoL this is all conjecture<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" />I am the reincarnation of one known to all cultures<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" />The stealer of light, also known as Coyote and Loki<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" />I am destined to rule this world <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" />and all the mortals who stain it<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" />All shall kneel before me or they will be knelt<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-02-20 08:01:33
subject: <b>Im usually a believer against this</b>
body:
But you have some nice points to as why this TG will be the LAST one. Your just lacking proof.<br /><br />How do you know Saidin or even Saidar were never tainted 1000 ages ago? How do you know the Aiel have never been fierce? How do you know there have never been three Ta'veren involved before? This would all make sense, with some evidence. to bad the Guide's not saying anything before the AoL...(Hint Hint, Rj...)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">-Sabin<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-09-13 23:14:24
subject: <b>to finite</b>
body:
Your thinking is too finite.  WOTland is on an infinte scale.  the wheel has not turned thousands of times, its turned over 9999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999X10^9999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 times!  there is nothing that has not happened before, because if there are infinite ages, then all infinite possibilities have been played out already!  Read some of the Theories for Academics, then maybe you'll get it.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>It's not apples and oranges, but no one paying attention could compare these apples without noticing: <br />(a) one is 12 times bigger and <br />(b) both of them are rutabagas.</i></font><p></p>


created: 2005-09-13 23:16:00
subject: <b>BTW</b>
body:
The mathematical impossibility I threw in was deliberate.  If I confuse you, thats because you're inferior.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>It's not apples and oranges, but no one paying attention could compare these apples without noticing: <br />(a) one is 12 times bigger and <br />(b) both of them are rutabagas.</i></font><p></p>


created: 2005-09-13 23:17:16
subject: <b>wow</b>
body:
would the admins pleas remove some of my nines, they make the page really hard to read<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>It's not apples and oranges, but no one paying attention could compare these apples without noticing: <br />(a) one is 12 times bigger and <br />(b) both of them are rutabagas.</i></font><p></p>


created: 2006-07-15 17:09:48
subject: <b>Ummm....</b>
body:
All your &quot;facts&quot; are from the AOL, the second age.  The &quot;Wheel&quot; has 7 spokes, or seven ages, and it is not the same age that repeats every time, it is a set of 7 ages, thus you need to look at the last 3rd age, not this second age for your information.


created: 2001-08-10 04:46:54
subject: <b>Very Interesting</b>
body:
I like it.  And let us not forget that in norse mythology, Ragnorok is brought about by............GASP.......A Dragon!!  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-11-19 06:24:39
subject: <b>I like it</b>
body:
I think that this is a good idea, especially because it solves the problem of the DO's prison needing to be whole again, without a patch, cos if the wheel is 'reborn', then it would be made as it was at the start of the wheel, with the DO safely locked up.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/birgitte.gif" border="0" /> Alexia is my <font color="red">Cute Australian&#8482;</font> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/birgitte.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/min.gif" border="0" /> Proudly Bonded to Rana Sedai <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/min.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><font color="red"><i>It was all my fault...</i></font><br /><br /><font color="white">squaaaaark</font><font color="#3366FF"><br /><i>I'm a sexy chicken for Zeeb</i></font><br /><br /><font color="blue"><b><i>Vegas Aug 17-18 - A Night to Remember</i></b></font></font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-22 07:21:27
subject: <b>mostly insignificant point dispute</b>
body:
after the end of the world in Germanic Mythology (as it technically should be called, although Norse is the most known variant) the world is not exactly reborn as it was.<br /><br />what happens is that one of the Aesir (one of the 2 sets of Germanic gods), Baldur, who was killed (directly or indirectly, I cannot remember which) by Loki (whom I feel is very similar to Padain Fain) is reborn.  Baldur was a peace loving god whom the other gods so revered that they gave him protection from almost all forms of attack, Loki still got him though, and built for him an eden-like realm.<br /><br />anyway, when Baldur is reborn, along with a lot of the minor gods of Germanic mythology, he creates a paradise.  This is possible because there are no more Giants and Dwarves nor is Loki (who was waiting for the end of the world and the beginning of chaos so that he could be the god above all other gods) around.  All this means that the gods and humans are untainted by greed and desire.  It is a simple world now.<br /><br />and finally,....I wonder if I actually disputed anything that was said.<br /><br />but anyway, this is all possible because of the world-tree Yggdrasil (sp?) which doesn't seem to be terribly bothered by Ragnarok and the giants and gods fighting.<br /><br />hmm?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/myrddraal.gif" border="0" />Lord_Foul<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/madmyrddraal.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/disapprove.gif" border="0" />One day I'll spend more than 2 minutes on a post<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/disapprove.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-13 19:49:00
subject: <b>Wheel Turns</b>
body:
Now.....if i remember from my 'children's norse mythology' (actually it was D'aulaire's), After ragnarok, a new race was born, out of an elder and an ash tree. This race started out living in caves, then progressed into what i see as a feudal-sistem-time, with a ot of mead, etc. I see this as the birth of humans, and much more plausible than the God-created-all bs. Any ways, the wheel of time would turn through TG into the creation of humans. <br />     comments, anyone? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sleepy.gif" border="0" />=


created: 2003-01-01 03:13:16
subject: <b>Ragnarok</b>
body:
The following is a section from a mythological encyclopedia, the stuff in brackets was inserted by me to show relation to the Wheel of TIme:<br />&quot;Ragnarok was the preordained doom of the gods(The Last Battle), and the climax of the cosmic drama. The seeds of doom were sown at the dawn of time when the world and its first creatures emerged from the violent extremes of ice and fire(saidin &amp; saidar???) Inherently fragile, the universe was beset by forces of destruction and flawed from the outset.(!!!) THe inevitable climax was precipitated by a series of disasters. Loki, a catalyst of evil, spawned three fearsome monsters(Myrdrall, Trollocs, Dreadlords??) against whom the gods were ultimately powerless. COnsumed with hate, Loki went on to slay Balder, symbol of goodness and beauty. Beyond Asgard, the enmity of the hostile giants gathered momentum until, at Ragnarok, all the world's destructive forces burst forth in cataclysmic disaster.(This sounds more like the Breaking) In one hopeful version, some gods survive and the earth emerges fresh and green, purged by flood and fire.&quot;<br />ALso, other stuff ive found about mythilogy that parrallel wot,<br />Jormunhand, the serpent son of Loki, grew so long that he encircled the earth and is often depicted biting his tail(the great serpent?)<br />Lif, and Lifthrasir were the man and woman who hid in the cosmic ash tree Yggdrasil and destined to survive Ragnorok and repopulate the world.<br />JOrdan probably also uses celtic mythology to a certain extent. THe queen Tigraine in the wheel of time probably comes from Igraine, King Arthur's mother. Uther Pendragon probably became King Artur Hawking Paendragon (sp??) and Galad and Gawyn come from Galahad and Gawain, knights of the round table<br />


created: 2001-04-04 00:00:00
subject: <b>What about Rand's Schools?</b>
body:
Just to throw something into the mix....What about Rand's schools?  He is starting something now so why couldnt the library be started now in the hopes of preserving for after the war.


created: 2001-04-14 00:00:00
subject: <b>agree....</b>
body:
I agree with apk5, Rand is creating schools in this 'chaos' so it is possible a library could be built...


created: 2001-07-27 09:19:46
subject: <b>well most likely, but....</b>
body:
Just to play devils advocate, i feel i must point out that rand has founded a school in the middle of all this chaos, so that viewign dosent mean the DO will be sealed away.<br /><br />personally i think that is what will happen, RJ dosent ahve the guts to let the dark one win.<br /><br />again jst playing devils advocate<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" />  Jaichim Carridin<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /> Anointed of the Light <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /> The man who calls himself Bors</font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-30 12:09:49
subject: <b>Library</b>
body:
How about this? Her Ashaman Warder will tell her things about the power that she did not know. The library is just a symbol for the knowledge.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">IRAFO*<br /><br />*I Read And Found Out</font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-29 14:19:13
subject: <b>a comment on Wotmania's comment</b>
body:
unfortunately I must disagree with Wotmania's comment that no body will be founding any libraries.  We have already seen Rand start several schools and libraries with those schools.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Zeddicus<br />zedd@wotmania.com<br />&quot;Life is a dream.  All dreams must end.&quot;<br />&quot;The last embrace of the mother welcome you home.&quot;<br /><br />If you must mount the gallows, give a jest to the crowd, a coin to the hangman, and make the drop with a smile</font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-08 23:10:32
subject: <b>uh...</b>
body:
Mr. Wotmania, sir (newbie attempting to kiss sum arse before disagreeing with webmaster)... do we really need anymore proof that Rand will win the Last Battle? You honestly think that RJ (may the Light forever illumine his name) would end the series with the Shadow taking over the world? I don't think so.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> former Akutenshi member <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /> Organizer of TRACS <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> member of the Trigger fan club <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />Trigger fears: <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/berelain.gif" border="0" /> <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> I'm aliena's jig-dancing partner <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rolleyes.gif" border="0" /> jealous? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /> If I'm here, consider yourself blessed by my presence <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-10 15:01:43
subject: <b>Guts aren't the issue...</b>
body:
Does anyone really WANT the DO to win?  The only thing worse than a &quot;tacked-on happy ending&quot; is a &quot;tacked-on unhappy ending&quot;.  The idea that a tragic ending is somehow more artistic or &quot;hardcore&quot; has always bothered me.<br /><br />Or perhaps you were just referring to the thousands of fans who would lynch him?  I guess maybe it would take a lot of guts...<br /><br />Regarding the actual theory...  I think she'll found the library after TG, but I don't think it's impossible that she does it before either.  So I'm neutral.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Veteran of the Butcher's Yard <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Remember Eben Hopwil <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-02-15 21:55:20
subject: <b>nuh, uh, fade</b>
body:
min said 'a library she would found', and somewhere else, she said that the words came with the viewings. i would assume the thoughts also do. so she WILL found a library. or is it will find a library...? i hate grammar...<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smackhead.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />however, in response to the theory, i think there's still time to found (find) a library before TG. well, maybe not, considering the way jordan writes... i dunno... <br /><br />I have no idea how he's gonna finish the series in only two books. there's a TON to resolve.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">-Sabin<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-05-17 15:01:23
subject: <b>Too much thinking to be done on this subject.... *NM*</b>
body:
me <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/crazy.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /> the wheel of time turns..... <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wheel.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rand.gif" border="0" /> rand was killed by me <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/moiraine.gif" border="0" /> die moiraine die <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-red.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2005-10-02 21:14:29
subject: <b>Beldeine the Keeper</b>
body:
I am of the opinion that Beldeine will become Egwene's Keeper, and after Tarmon Gai'don, she will reestablish the Tower library out of the ashes of Tar Valon. Assuming that the White Tower will be attacked, which is probably quite likely.


created: 2001-11-21 11:44:16
subject: <b>Importance of Whitecloaks</b>
body:
I don't think RJ throws anything into his books just for the sake of taking up space.  Rand seems to overcome all other obstacles in one bizarre way or another, having the whitecloaks eventually submit to him is, I think, very likely.  I think their role is yet to be defined--like so many things in RJ's books.


created: 2002-08-15 00:29:12
subject: <b>Re:Whitecloaks</b>
body:
I believe the wc's days are numbered. They are the closest things to DF's ive seen yet. They are for the most part mean and vile people looking for anyone they can bully. I'm thinking they will end up fighting against almost everyone thinking everyone is in league with DF's and the last battle is kinda like Niall's vision of masses of DF's and dreadlords (channelers) pouring out of the blight. All Aes Sedai (witches) and Ashaman will be lumped into that category. So far everything they have done has caused problems and they have been on the wrong side. And im thinking there will be no place for such in the new age. But then again im kinda leaning towards Saren (questioner) as being Demandred in disquise. So no doubt i could be way off.


created: 2001-08-06 11:03:03
subject: <b>You Missed One...</b>
body:
When mentoining his sister, mother, sister-in-law, and all that, you forgot THE MOST IMPORTANT! his half brother<br /><br />Who is his half brother?<br /><br />Rand Al'Thor, the Dragon Reborn<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">___________________<br />Evilmonkey<br /><br /><i>&quot;Madness waits for some. It creeps up on others.&quot;</i><br />-Lews Therin Telamon</font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-17 01:02:37
subject: <b>Also</b>
body:
I agree that he will have a lot to think about, but you also left out the fact that Rand is his half brother, thus again attaching a string to him to accept channelers.


created: 2001-07-09 17:45:26
subject: <b>how many???</b>
body:
I think in WH Balwer says something about there being 10,000 WhiteCloaks around, but i could be wrong.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Imagen<br /><br />Bringing the Light to all who don't think Olver is Gaidal <br /><br />If Polgara and Sephrenia helped out, poor Rand would be doing whatever any woman told him to do.<br /><br />Is it just me or have the smiley&#8217;s gotten waaaaaaaaaaaay outta control?<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-10 16:24:21
subject: <b>Galad will kill Valda...</b>
body:
... when he discovers that Valda took advantage of Morgase.<br />He will likely take control of any surviving Whitecloaks, but whether or not they join Rand is debatable.<br /><br />I've been dying to know what happened to that document.  I'm convinced it's going to cause somebody some problems down the line, although I don't see how...  It should be meaningless to the Seanchan (it doesn't grant them any rights), and the Whitecloaks seem to be in no shape to make use of it (they're defeated and scattered, with worse yet to come I'm sure).  The only thing it will do is further discredit Morgase (who most people believe is dead anyway).  This could hurt Elayne's chances of securing the Lion Throne.  However, as I see Galad controlling the Whitecloaks, he wouldn't want that...<br /><br />So it seems important, and yet also useless...<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Veteran of the Butcher's Yard <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Remember Eben Hopwil <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-05-27 09:17:02
subject: <b>Re:Re:Re;Re: Whitecloaks</b>
body:
We all know by know that the whitecloaks are going to play some part in the last battle or jardan wouldn't have introduced them into the story,I think Galad is the whiteclak in the shaidao camp who keeps trying to run away, and whenever Perrin goes to rescue faile, the whitecloaks<br />&quot;by chance&quot; will be tring to rescue Galad which will of course lead into a big argument between the two. But I think<br />Valda will See Morgase and Tell perrin he will follow Perrin<br />to try and gain some power where ever perrin goes. Thus Galad will see the evil in the whitecloaks and will try to bring them back to the light which will end up with him somehow siding with Rand and the Whitecloaks will soon follow. I don't know how Jordan will do it but he is a genuis and it will work


created: 2001-08-20 15:11:41
subject: <b>Whitecloaks</b>
body:
What I would love to see is for the whitecloaks to completely dissapeer. Thee are too much of a  Inquisitional force in Randland. Awnserable to none but themselves and with a military force equal to most nation, Facism at it's best folks.  I really want to see the scene when Galad and Rand realize they are Brothers. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br />Random <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Random Gaidin <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/myrddraal.gif" border="0" /><br />El Coyote <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-09 13:46:25
subject: <b>I don't think so...</b>
body:
I agree it does seem that that is a likely possibility...however, the Children are very scattered right now thanks to the Seanchan...I believe that Rand will scatter the Seanchan eventually and the Children will then not have as much control as before...anywho...that's just my two-cents.<br />


created: 2002-09-10 16:17:06
subject: <b>Galad will kill Valda...</b>
body:
... after encountering his Mother (in-law) Morgase.  The Whitecloaks will be rebuilt in Galad's image (i.e. they will finally be what they are supposed to be).<br /><br />They may or may not join Rand, and they may or may not survive TG.<br /><br />Dain will be killed or converted by Perrin.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Veteran of the Butcher's Yard <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Remember Eben Hopwil <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-21 00:18:24
subject: <b>Then Again</b>
body:
Or he might learn of Valda's treachery and finally figure the Whitecloak's to be a bunch bigots and leave them for good and join Rand instead. BUt all in all, I still think it makes more sense fo RJ to continue using the Whitecloaks as a force rather then let them be 'weaved' out of the wheel. With that in mind, I'm guessing it's highly probable that the Galad-Whitecloak thingy is gonna happen. Good theory.


created: 2002-06-26 14:03:44
subject: <b>naaah</b>
body:
Galad is a nicely ambiguous character, but I think he's gonna swing toward the side of evil before (and if) he joins the forces of the Light.  RJ favors protagonists who have flaws or corruptions, or at least some human-like personality.<br /><br />He may take over the Whitecloaks, but after he does, I think he'll be controlled like a puppet (a la Sheriam) by Asunawa and the Shadow.  Only something that traumatic would convince him that he needs to support Rand and Aes Sedai.


created: 2002-08-08 00:08:51
subject: <b>I have a different vision of Galad's future</b>
body:
I have a feeling that Jordan will be too sorely tempted to pit brother against brother (Tigraine is the mother of both, right?  If not, let me know!) in a big sword duel.  He's been building up to it for many books.  Lan tells us that Rand is a blademaster at this point.  So does a lot of other evidence.  Meanwhile Galad has developed into one as well (remember when he and the Shienarans spirited Nynaeve away from Masema?  He was unstoppable).  Maybe we can both be right. Maybe Rand will best him in the sword duel but not kill him outright.  Then maybe Galad will come to the right way of thinking.  But I'd put it as a 1-5 proposition that we're headed for this swordfight before anything else can happen with these brothers.  And Galad might just have to bite the dust.  Somebody has to!  Plus he's boring and useless -- expendable to the extreme.  Not so much as Gawyn, but who is.  But don't get me started on that moron...is there any rumor he won't swallow whole?<br /><br />P.S.  Slayer is Lan's problem to eventually deal with for similar fraternal (fratricidal in this case) reasons.  This I put at 1-10.  It is going to happen, people.  Lan might not survive it, but it's going down.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">CANES 2009<br />In Jacory we Trust</font><p></p>


created: 2002-09-10 16:11:33
subject: <b>Galad is in for a shock...</b>
body:
First,I believe that Galad is Berelain's &quot;man in white&quot;, therefore it's a given he's with the Whitecloak force that is going to play some part in Perrin's near future.<br /><br />Doesn't this mean that Galad is likely to encounter Morgase?  If he finds out that Valda took advantage of his mother, then a Whitecloak power struggle is guaranteed!<br /><br />Besides, Galad is just the fellow to whip those misguided fools into something useful.  He may not be the most personable character in the series, but he is clearly the most selfless, and I have to respect that.<br /><br />P.S. Gawyn must die!<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Veteran of the Butcher's Yard <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Remember Eben Hopwil <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-07-08 11:17:54
subject: <b>no shiznt sherlock</b>
body:
i think it is safe to say that galad=galahad from legend of king arthur. What happened to galahad? he was the undefeted knight who lost a fight with arthur and then became a loyal knight. hope galad doent play out that predictbly.<br />


created: 2001-04-15 00:00:00
subject: <b>Possibly but the reason is different</b>
body:
If Lanfear killed Asmodean, it was because he let Rand sleep with Aviendha and didn't tell her.  Kadere told her about it and that Asmo kept it hidden.  Kadere was killed for the same reason.  Why let Asmo escape her wrath?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Dora Sedai<br />Keeper of the Notes<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-15 14:12:58
subject: <b>Question</b>
body:
How Could Asmodean recodnise Lanfear? She looks like a young big breasted girl as i remember. asmodean had never seen Cyndane before AND she must ave recived orders from Mordidin since he have her soul inn his necklace.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot; cogito ergo doleo.&quot;<br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> Veni, vidi, volo in domum redire<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" />Ecce potestas casei.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-23 20:27:07
subject: <b>Mirror o' Mists</b>
body:
Couldn't Cyndane/Lanfear use the power Mirror of Mists to look like Lanfear and go to Asmodean.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">MoelBrain: The other MB</font><p></p>


created: 2002-01-15 06:44:03
subject: <b>Re. Moelbrain's Post</b>
body:
Why would she do that and risk letting anyone who might recognize her know she is back? I think it was Demandred.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />Shorty, Pastor of Muppets<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Embiggens is a perfectly cromulent word.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />I bet Einstein turned himself all sorts of colors before he invented the light bulb.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/oh.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />PS: I'm sexy. Really. Really really sexy.<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-19 13:15:19
subject: <b>I dont think so</b>
body:
The only problem with this theory is that lanfear died, we all know that from book 9.<br />So how would asmodean know what she would look like because she had a new body.  So I dont realy think he would of known her. <br />Because when he was killed he he said  &quot;... you&quot; or something like that I dont remenber the words but I know that he reconized who she was.


created: 2002-05-08 22:43:58
subject: <b>what</b>
body:
ur flamin confusing me u woolhead sheephearder i dont know what the flamin ashes u are saying.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Cusser of words.<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> Killer of flamin darkfriends.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /><br />    Uno1<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/uno.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-14 15:34:18
subject: <b>My first guess</b>
body:
When I read tFoH for the first time, I thought it was Lanfear.She seemed to fit, and may usedMask of MIrrors.<br />Personally, I think it was Taim. A very subtle clue is the punctuation, &quot;You?&quot;<br /> He didn't say, &quot;You!&quot;<br />As if it was someone he didn't immediately fear, then instantly realizing he was toast. (No pun intended.)Asmodean could recognize Taim, simply because (this is still conjecture at this point) Taim had been invited to &quot;join the crew&quot;  of Forsaken. When he was sprung from captivity in Saldea, it could havebeen done by some Forsaken, who immediately began extolling the virtues of joining the forces of the Dark One (namely, not succumbing to the taint.) <br />Demandred took a liking to the guy (owing to some resemblance) and trained Taim to his liking. <br />When it later became clear the Asmo was teaching  Rand, Demandred (who is known to use proxies) ordered Taim to kill Asmodean.<br />How convenient that Taim shows up very shortly after Rand's teacher  &quot;disapears.&quot;<br />Seeing Taims's PoV on his conversion to the Shadow would help. Of course, having Asmo's killer confess in the series would help even more. ;-)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Awesome June Jones...I'm glad you took your 1-11 season to another WAC - expatriot. You truly are the most over-paid Division I coach. Go Bows!</font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-31 12:20:05
subject: <b>I Agree! It was Lanfear</b>
body:
I agree with the original post.....it was Lanfear.  I'm not going to agrue the point line-by-line, since it has been done already, but I'm going to take a different approach.<br /><br />Jordan said in an interview, the killer should be obvious and he wasn't trying to trick anyone.  Literally speaking, the relevant chapters make it appear that Lanfear is the obvious choice who killed Asmo.  Why?<br /><br />Because the entire chapters were about Rand, Lanfear, and Asmo.  Lanfear disliked Asmo, Asmo was afraid of her, she just vanished into the doorway, she could use balefire.....etc.  Since Jordan thought it was clear who the killer was, Lanfear is the only choice.....<br /><br />If it isn't Lanfear, than Jordan is trying to trick us, which he doesn't do as a writer.  Sure, Jordan rarely gives us all the information on a matter, but he has never given us false information or jerked us around.<br /><br />Later.....<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Tolkien Fan for Life<br />and suprise Harry Potter Fan as well<br />(I thought these were children books, not almost 30-something books!)</font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-02 18:03:00
subject: <b>Had to be..</b>
body:
Lanfear. Its possible that he recognized her because she used the mask o'mirrors or mist or whatever it is, the illusion trick, for him to see her as she is, not as Cyndane. That way, he would KNOW who killed him. People with revenge in their minds normally do crazy stuff like that, let the person they are killing know who they are and what not. Its a good plot tug.


created: 2002-07-25 14:41:00
subject: <b>I agree</b>
body:
I think Lanfear being the killer makes the most sense.  It would have to be one of the Forsaken, no one else is powerful enough.  It would have to be a female or someone using the True source becuase Rand would presumably detect a male chanleing strong enough to use balefire.  Lanfear is the only one with a strong enough motive. She has a twofold motive first she told Asmo to teach Rand, but didn't want Asmo to teach Rand too much and second she wanted Asmo to keep Rand from becoming involved with another woman.  Asmo failed at both.  Rand learned enough to challenge her when she confronted him, and he slept with someone else.  While one of the other forsaken could have done it, it seems to me that if they wanted to do so they would have done so earlier, which seems to indicate that they felt the risk was greater than the reward.  So it would take someone acting rashly, which Lanfear has shown herself being capable of doing.  As for the earlier comments about Lanfear getting a new body I think all that happened after she killed Asmo.  So the timeline would be 1)pushed throught he doorway 2) escapes from the doorway 3)kills Asmo and then sometime after that gets summoned by the DO and punished etc.


created: 2002-11-15 09:52:33
subject: <b>Nope</b>
body:
It was Graendal you fools, using either the True Power or using Saidar and escaping fast enough and not leaving a trace of Asmodean's body so that even if other channelers felt it, well they were surrounded by women channeling why the hell would one more make a difference.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rand.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Kneel and swear to the Lord Dragon, or you shall be knelt! - Mazrim Taim<br /><br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-27 01:31:12
subject: <b>How Lanfear did it!</b>
body:
Lanfear and Morraine went into the wish-granting gateway.  If Cyndane is Lanfear, Lanfear died.  We know either Morraine killed Lanfear, the wish granters killed Lanfear, or Lanfear died after leaving the wish granters.  Given Lanfear's strength vs. Morraine I assume the 2nd is much more likely - RJ wouldn't have killed Lanfear off camera immediately after we assume she died somewhere else.<br /><br />Matt didn't know the gateway granted wishes, and since Lanfear didn&#8217;t use the gateway before (or she couldn&#8217;t have entered), she may not have known either &#8211; wouldn&#8217;t Lanfear have used it before if she knew?<br /><br />The wish granters said that Matt was lucky to have wished for a way out.  Lanfear did not wish for a way out &#8211; or she&#8217;d still have her original body.  That means Lanfear got 3 wishes granted and then she died.  <br /><br />So what would Lanfear wish for?  Knowing she had 3 wishes, and a perfectly rational mind, she&#8217;d ask for Rand&#8217;s love, to be Nae Bliss, etc.  Knowing no more than Matt, she probably spouted out angry demands similar to what he did.  &#8220;This is that fool Asmodean&#8217;s fault!  I wish I could&#8230;&#8221;


created: 2003-03-12 16:02:19
subject: <b>It was Graendal</b>
body:
RJ says it should be obvious to the casual observer.  The whole battle between Rand and Rahvin, Moghedien is babbling about Rahvin and Graendal scheming together.  Rahvin makes a gateway to go to T'A'R in the flesh. Why? Because Graendal is there to help him (Moghedien says he is not a good Dreamer).  But during the whole battle, we don't see Graendal.  In the battle from Rand's POV, he assumes Rahvin is using T'A'R to change him into a beast, etc.  IMO some of that was Graendal.  After Rahvin gets balefired, Graendal stays hidden for a while so she doesn't get balefired, then Travels back to the real Caemlyn from where she was hiding, whereupon Asmodean opens up the door and BAM! That could also be why it was You? instead of You!  He was questioning why Graendal would be there at all.<br /><br />Again, let me reiterate RJ says it should be obvious to the casual observer.  He also said we have all the clues we need at the end of book 5.  At this point, we have no reason to suspect Lanfear is still alive, and no reason to suspect the DO can ressurect fallen Chosen.  That is not obvious.  In addition, Lanfear was ressurected as Cyndane.  He would not recognize Cyndane.  Saying that Lanfear died, got resurrected, then Traveled to Caemlyn, then was behind the exact door Asmodean went to and had the foresight (or stupididty) to use the Mask of Mirrors in Caemlyn where Rand, Aviendha and who knows who else that just saw her half an hour ago and would recognize her on sight, just so Asmodean would know who killed him, does not seem very obvious to me at all.<br /><br />There is also the point that later in the series Graendal speaks of Asmodean as if he is dead, when none of the other Forsaken or Rand know what happened to him, and most think he fled.


created: 2003-04-25 14:26:14
subject: <b>Thanks to the above post</b>
body:
I can simply say that I agree and not have to make a long post why <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Greandal is the most plausible choice IMO.  No one else combines motive with opportunity nearly as well.  The quick manner in which Asmodean is disposed of leads one to believe that the one power is used to kill him.  His surprised reaction suggests that the killer is someone he knew and didn't expect to be there.  Add to this the fact that Greandal seemingly has more knowledge about Asmodean being dead than the other chosen and I think it's fairly clear if not quite crystal that she is responsible.<br /><br />OK so I guess I kinda said why after all =D


created: 2001-11-04 12:35:06
subject: <b>I love you Asmodean</b>
body:
I don't want Asmodean to be dead.  He was like, the coolest of the Forsaken.  Maybe the DO will give him a new body and name.  I really don't remember very well, but I don't think that if he is dead, he would have been killed by balefire bacause it mentions that the Forsaken are loathe to use it, and who would use it, if they had already had him by surprise.  I doubt we see him again, but I will always remember the good times we had, Asmodean.


created: 2002-10-16 10:26:50
subject: <b>I agree, mistaken though I may be....</b>
body:
I actually had that same thought, although I thought the cour'souvra would be somewhere other than Moridin, perhaps it was given to Semirhage.....<br />


created: 2001-09-30 20:02:07
subject: <b>Moghedien's girlfriend?</b>
body:
You are referring to Lanfear's reincarnation as Cyndane? I'm quite certain that Moghedien doesn't have a girlfriend... would you like to me more specific?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Anakha<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" />most fearsome of Pandions<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/viking.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sleepy.gif" border="0" />man without destiny<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sleepy.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" />wielder of Bhelliom<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/devil.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />killer of Gods<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />most feared by the Gods<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-12-01 10:03:04
subject: <b>Asmodean is D.E.A.D.</b>
body:
Asmodean is dead, period, end of story, shows over, he&quot;s ROADKILL. I know this because RJ himself told everyone at a book signing (not to mention he said it in a way that meant it as a stupid theory that he could possibly be alive).<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Boromir Rules! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gimli.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perrin.gif" border="0" /> (whichever looks more like him)<br />Gandalf for President! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gandalf.gif" border="0" /><br />If I'm not back in 5 minutes...just wait longer. -Jim Carrey<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-08-22 18:30:59
subject: <b>Hmmm...</b>
body:
My mind had already gone down the route of Moiraine being the killer; her motive is simple.  She doesn't want to reveal herself, yet since she can't be in close contact with Rand to guide him, she couldn't trust him with a Forsaken.


created: 2001-06-28 11:36:41
subject: <b>Inverted weaves</b>
body:
I would just like to say that neither Rand nor the girls would necessarily have felt any weaves because there is such a thing as INVERTING weaves sothat they're not felt.  I also am not sure who did it, but do not really feel it was Lanfear as she wants Rand to regain all his powers sothat they can stand together.  Probably one of the male forsaken though.


created: 2001-11-05 19:55:34
subject: <b>UM DON'T FORGET</b>
body:
coyote you seem to have forgoten that She was just a little earlyer TRYING TO KILL RAND. I don't think she cares anymore if Rand lernes or not.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> Master of Wolves <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> King of Fire <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Weilder of Balefire <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br />      Maldais <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/myrddraal.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-23 18:58:39
subject: <b>mugu mugu</b>
body:
DOn't step on the white tiles... HOT LAVA!!!<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Enin Bar'nast<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-14 03:42:48
subject: <b>I agree... it can't be Lanfear...</b>
body:
I know this discussion has been going on for years now, but I keep going back to Asmodean's reaction on opening the door. The instant he saw that person, Asmodean recognized him/her AND knew immediately that that person was going to kill him. No matter how quickly Lanfear came back from the Aelfinn, we know she came back (or was resurrected by the Dark One) as Cyndane, with a different appearance and lowered strength. She didn't reappear as herself, kill Asmodean, and then turn into Cyndane. That just doesn't make sense. And when Moghedien and Cyndane visited Graendal, Graendal did not immediately recognize Cyndane as Lanfear reborn, so there's absolutely no reason to expect that Asmodean would either... I don't personally have any idea who DID kill Asmodean, but I do agree that it wasn't Lanfear.


created: 2001-10-17 10:48:20
subject: <b>Graendal very likely was the killer</b>
body:
I agree with what you say about her being the killer. Rand probably wouldn't have noticed a female channeling or would assume it was Aviendha. As for why she was in Caemlyn, Lanfear, Sammael, Rahvin, and herself had a plan to come at Rand together. Lanfear was &quot;killed&quot; and Rahvin balefired, leaving Graendal and Sammael. We see later on that Sammael is very skeptical of Asmodean being dead, but Graendal is sure of it. As for motive, Asmodean has turned traitor towards the Dark One, which makes him a target for the Forsaken.<br /><br />Whether by balefire or not, Asmodean was killed instantly by someone he knew. Channeling can kill instantly, and the mess that would be there could surely be cleaned up with the Power as well. Since Mesaana and Sermihage have yet to make a very big appearance in the series, it is unlikely that either of them was the killer, Graendal is the most likely candidate.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-10-28 10:53:53
subject: <b>The Fish and Servants</b>
body:
The bites recieved by rand didn't go away when Rav   was balefired, thus someone else laid that trap<br /><br />when rand is running around the palace in the real world, he runs into 2 serving people   despite the fact that all the servants have left<br /><br />the two servents are of dark complexion, they are Granny's pets who she takes with her to the meeting at the begining of the TFoH<br /><br />RJ said we can definately figure it out by the end of PoD,  When Shadar Hain reigns Granny in, he states,  The time for you to go your own way has passed (i.e. the attempt on Rand's life) and he killes the two servents who were in Caem at the time<br /><br /><br />&quot;Scouting and Intelligance is the life blood of the army.&quot;  General George Armstrong Custer


created: 2002-01-31 13:36:31
subject: <b>So . . .</b>
body:
Everyone here believes that Asmodean wouldn't have recognised the feel of saidar after living in the AOL and surviving the War of Power?<br /><br />Do I also need to remind you that its always been described as goosebumps before?<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" />


created: 2003-05-19 05:22:13
subject: <b>No</b>
body:
If it was used saidar aviendha or some of the wise one would have noticed the killing and gateway, so it was probably used some true power.


created: 2001-06-19 18:39:16
subject: <b>&quot;Rider&quot; on Quarry Road</b>
body:
I noticed wotmania mentioned &quot;My biggest problem, of course, is Jordan&#8217;s assertion that we knew everything necessary up through The Fires of Heaven , and Shaidar Haran did not appear until Lord of Chaos.&quot;  Did RJ say Shaidar Haran didn't appear 'til Lord of Chaos?  I always wondered who that &quot;rider&quot; was at the beginning of Charpet 1 of The Eye of the World.  &quot;The rider's cloak covered him to his boot tops, the cowl tugged well forward so no part of him showed.  Vaguely Rand thought there was something odd about the horseman, but it was the shadowed opening of the hood that fascinated him.  He could see only the vaguest outlines of a face, but he had the feeling he was looking right into the rider's eyes.  And he could not look away.  Queasiness settled in his stomach.  There was only shadow to see in the hood, but he felt hatred as sharply as if he could see a snarling face, hatred for everything that lived.  Hatred for him most of all, for him above all things.&quot;  I've heard some say it was Ishamael, but could it be Shaidar Haran?


created: 2001-08-13 09:53:49
subject: <b>Not Likely</b>
body:
...There's not really any indication that the mysterious rider was nything other than a typical Myyrdral. And I don't think it can be argued that a fade introduced at the very beginning of book 1 would be 'obvious' as the killer.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-29 17:48:05
subject: <b>When Moggy said that</b>
body:
she meant every time she relived her one trip, it was the same.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Lews Therin al-Thor <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> The Dragon Reborn Reborn <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Lord of the Noontime <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> He Who Comes With The Dusk <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> The Breaker of the Good China <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-12 12:14:42
subject: <b>Who did it</b>
body:
<br />My two cents is on Isam/Luc. We know the Forsaken hire him and that he can appear out of thin air as he did when he killed the &quot;two Aes Sedai in Tear&quot;(Winter's Heart, Out of Thin Air, p 44<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br />I also find it strange that Asmodean, upon seeing his killer, exclaimed &quot;You!.&quot; I don't think he would address another Forsaken in that fashion.


created: 2003-02-02 22:16:06
subject: <b>why it &quot;may&quot; not make sense</b>
body:
RJ says that it should be obvious when you read about his death. That isn't abvious at all. You don't think hey he just died, it must have been haran Shaidar Haran.


created: 2001-06-27 14:29:30
subject: <b>Not Balefire</b>
body:
The DO in LoC says '..Asmodean. Dead in his weakness...' or something like that. But Rhavin is dead 'beyond my power to recall'. SO Asmodean is just normal dead.<br />If killed by the OP he must have been killed by a female (Rand would notice a male channel).<br /> Note he recognises his killer. RJ has said Asm and Slayer have not met in the books before ASm died, but I think in effect he was saying Slayer did not kill him. Especially since Slayer leaves bodies behind.<br />Then remember Asm is really conc. on Lanfear at that time and she promised to kill him if he failed. <br />Lanfear did it<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;We wont give a fig,<br /> We'll tell you to,<br /> Go stick your head in a pig!&quot;<br />  The Sirius Cybernetics Customer Services Helpline - Share and Enjoy!</font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-24 19:55:00
subject: <b>yeah</b>
body:
if i recall correctly the true source and the one power are the same thing...isn't it like the true power(evil people) and the one power(good people)?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Press START</font><p></p>


created: 2004-07-17 00:41:03
subject: <b>not fain</b>
body:
fain didn't know asmo, the chosen were released after winternight, and after fain became team 3<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I'm not Homsar. Really.</font><p></p>


created: 2006-09-10 20:10:12
subject: <b>I agree that fain is the killer</b>
body:
Fain isn't a mear Dark friend... In Winters Heart, under the Glossary Robert Jordan says of Paidin Fain (pg. 661) Former Darkfriend, now more and worse than a Darkfriend, and an enemy of the Forshaken as much as he id of Rand al'Thor, whom he hates with a passion.  If he had a chance to take out another forshaken, espically one that was helping Rand I'm sure he would have taken it. I think he would know who the FOrshaken were as he most like has done things for them in the past. I highly doubt that Asmodean was killed by someone with the power, if he saw someone trying to attack him with the powere he sould have inbraced saidin and smashed it with his own weave, but Fain's dagger would have taken effect to quickly for him to do anything about it.


created: 2002-01-12 23:54:48
subject: <b>I've always thought is was Mr. Nae'blis who did it</b>
body:
I thought JR might have been dropping us a subtle hint in the way he worded Asmodean's killing &quot;The word still hung in the air when death took him&quot;  Who's name means death in the old tongue?  Why, none other Moridin <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" />.  Also it makes sense that the True Power was used.  Asmodean, although weakened from the binding of his power, had time to react when he saw his assailant.  Had it been an advisary without the power he should have been able to manage an air shield.  Had it been someone wielding Saidar, the female channelers would have been aware of it.  Had someone wielded Saidin, Rand would have been aware of it.  Granted, most of this is nothing more than guessed extrapolation at best...but it works as a theory for me.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>Hi!  I'm Mat!  I'm just like Mat from the WoT...except I don't have that hat, medallion, sword-spear, and I can't speak the old tongue...although I did dance with one of the Forsaken once...</i><br /><br />-Mat <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-06-25 06:25:52
subject: <b>definitely mori</b>
body:
I agree it was moridin for this reason<br /><br />moridin was the only forsaken brought backthat had any real power right off the bat<br />also RJ had to get rid of asmodean (who as far as Im concerned was definitely the most useless forsaken)because he no longer had any purpose rand already had learnt everything he could from that useless freak<br /><br />So since at asmodeans deatth none of the forsaken hadcome back what better way to bring back the most powerful forsaken than by killing off the most useless one<br />also I believe it was the very next books prologue that introduced us to moridin<br /><br />anyway thats why I believe moridin killed Assy<br />Plus what characters cooler than moridin


created: 2003-01-02 16:32:13
subject: <b>Taim/Moridin/Ishmael</b>
body:
There are two sections in LoC that show that Moridin and Taim are one.  In &quot;Letters&quot; Lews Therin's voice whispers to Rand &quot;Death&quot;, then &quot;Death comes&quot;.  Shortly thereafter a Gray Man attacks and is killed by Mazrim Taim.  The first point is,  Moridin is the word for Death, and the second point Taim showed up using a gateway and Rand did not sense the power being channelled.  He would not have if Taim had used the True Source.<br />     The second section ties Taim to Ishmael.  In &quot;The Black Tower&quot; Lews Therin again whispers &quot;I should have killed him long ago, should have... should have...<br />This occured when Taim came to greet him at the Black Tower.  The only Forsaken Lews Therin knew was not sealed in the Prison was Ishmael.  Therefore you get Taim/Moridin/Ishmael<br />


created: 2001-04-01 00:00:00
subject: <b>Simply, let me agree...</b>
body:
I just want to add a few words to prove it from myself, the clues I have found (altough I don't doubt others found them too).<p>First, we have the following from an interview:</p><p>Q: Any hints on who killed Asmodean? <br />JR: The Asmodean question? I've said time and again that there is<br /> enough evidence for you guys to figure out who killed Asmodean. <br /> I have, since Asmodean's death, put in a few more clues. The<br /> evidence is there, if not exactly listed with flaming arrows pointing<br /> to it. It should be intuitively obvious to the most casual observer.</p><p>So it IS there. The possible murderers are:<br /> Graendal, Demandred (whether he is Taim or not), Sammael, Semirhage, Mesaana, Lanfear, Rahvin, Moghedien, Moridin, Shaidar Haran, OTHERS.</p><p>Now:<br />1) Rahvin, Moghedien and Lanfear are either already dead or captured at the moment of Asmodean's death.</p><p>2) Asmodean couldn't have recognized Shaidar Haran or Moridin, even if they already existed when he died.</p><p>3) As to any OTHERS, there are no clues about them, and we KNOW we have some clues!</p><p>4) Why not Demandred: in LoC (p.5 LoC paperback) he says to the Dark One: "Lanfear has vanished without a trace, just as Asmodean did", and a bit later he 'thinks': " The Great Lord already seemed to know that Rahvin died. And seemed to know more about Asmodean than he."</p><p>5) Why not Sammael: He talks with Graendal and says: "have you learned where Al'Thor is hiding Asmodean? Or any thing about Lanfear's whereabouts? Or Moghedien's?" (G. answers that Rand killed A.); and later: "Al'Thor - al'Thor, Graendal! An ignorant boy, whatever Asmodean manages (*es* - he's still not sure whether to believe G. or not!) to teach him."</p><p>6) Why not Semirhage: Here are some of her 'thoughts': "Asmodean. A traitor, and so doomed, but he really had vanished (...)If the Great Lord moved her here secretly, might he not be moving [...] even Asmodean?" Later she asks (p. 190 LoC paperback): "Where is Asmodean?"</p><p>7) Why not Mesaana: on page 189 (LoC paperback) Semirhage 'thinks': "More troubling were the Chosen who had vanished. Demandred insisted they must be dead, but she and Mesaana were not so sure." This is not much, but Mesaana, Demandred and Semirhage have worked together since before the War of Power. At that time, Mesaana is very much focused on the plot that ends the volume VI, and on the disappearance of Semirhage.</p><p>It leaves only Graendal, doesn't it?<br />Graendal is the only Forsaken who knows from the beginning for sure that A. is dead. All others doubt it. Also, Graendal says that Rand killed Asmodean, and is quite sure about it, although she knows why Rand needed Asmodean (Lanfear told her). And besides, this lie is very much like her.</p><p>JR said that he had placed enough clues, and the above are the only clues, I think. </p><p>Well, the rest I leave to your intuition... </p><p>Whitefire.</p>


created: 2001-04-12 00:00:00
subject: <b>All Rand's injuries in TAR were caused by Rahvin</b>
body:
If you go to the WoT FAQ and look under the section 'Asmodean's killer-' its says that RJ said that Balefire/TAR has strange effects and this explains why not all of Rands wounds disappeared when Rahvin was balefired.  So all Rands injuries were caused By Rahvin and theres no evidence that anyone else was helping Rahvin in TAR at the time


created: 2001-04-14 00:00:00
subject: <b>fish</b>
body:
Was going to explain the fish 'theory' but I see that saidan7 already has... RJ said specifically that Rahvin caused all of rand's injuries in Tel and that balefire had different aspects there...


created: 2001-07-05 07:31:42
subject: <b>She did it alright</b>
body:
It's true that you may not be able to pin the fishes on Graendal, but the only evidence there is points towards her as the culprit...<br />besides, we have this excerpt to go by:<br /><br />Question from Vercingetorix: Why do you think everyone has a hard time figuring out who killed Asmodean? Graendal killed him. <br />Robert Jordan: I don't know why people have a hard time figuring that out. To me it seems intuitively obvious even to the most casual observer. The reason I won't tell people though is that I am enjoying watching them squirm entirely too much. It's probably bad for me. <br /><br />Note he agrees with the statement. There. Graendal did it. Someone finally got him to admit it. Yay. <br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> That was balefire. It could burn your thread clear out of the pattern. Now, after all this excitement, you're probably wondering... does he have any power left? But the real question is... do you feel lucky? Well, do you, goat-kisser?<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-13 11:22:09
subject: <b>Not necessarily</b>
body:
In that same statement RJ is saying that he won't come out and say who killed Asmo. I think he was just overlooking the Graendal comment. I do think Graendal did it, but I won't site that answer as proof.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sooner or later it all connects back to itself.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-30 20:09:06
subject: <b>Fish bites</b>
body:
I had forgotten about the fish bites, and what you say makes a lot of sense. If Rahvin had been responsible for them, they would have vanished when Rand balefired him, but since Nynaeve had to heal them, obviously Rahvin wasn't. You narrow down the suspects. I knew it wasn't Lanfear, Moghedien or Rahvin who killed Asmodean, since they were all otherwise engaged.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Tuon<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" />Daughter of the Nine Moons<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" />Most intelligent of Seanchan<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-03 07:05:41
body: Rand must have oyher wise the dark proficies don't add up<br />
subject:
<b>Rand Killed That person<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /></b>


created: 2002-02-02 00:44:09
subject: <b>....I like</b>
body:
O..k...That makes SO much more sense than ANY other theory I've made up or heard! The only thing I could possibly see that could ruin that is if Graendal did open a gateway into that room why didn't any of the &quot;Aes Sedai&quot; detect her channeling?


created: 2002-02-02 17:53:09
subject: <b>More Jordan confirmation and explanations</b>
body:
I read in one of the Jordan interviews that we met the person who killed Asmodean in tFoH and going through the book, eliminating people because of previous books, time, place or death, the conclusion is that either it was Graendal, whom we met at the beginning of the book and who was only referred to in the previous ones, or Bashere, who would have no motive to do it unless he was Demandred. Therefore it has to be Graendal.<br /><br />And with respect to the others detecting her, we know that Graendal can hide her channeling, look at the battle scene in WH where Cadsuane cannot see her channeling at all. Easy to open a gateway in private without being detected if you can keep your ability masked in a stressful battle situation.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />   the Harvester of Mankind    <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />      the Thief of Years       <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />     the Slayer of Worlds      <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" />     the Ultimate Reality      <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jawa.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Blog - brucetheloon.blogspot.com</font><p></p>


created: 2002-02-18 18:15:53
subject: <b>Just got done with the end of TFoH</b>
body:
this little bit stands out when Nynaeve is talking to Moggy right after her capture:<br /><br />&quot;Tell me, and I will consider whether it's worth anything,&quot; Nynaeve said. What could she<br />&quot;Lanfear, Graendal, Rahvin and Sammael are plotting together.&quot;<br />Nynaeve gave the leash a short tug, staggering her. &quot;I know that. Tell me something new.&quot;<br />The woman was captive here, but the a &#8216;dam only existed so long as they were in Tel'aran'rhiod<br />&quot;Do you know they are drawing Rand al'Thor to attack Sammael? But when he does, he<br />will find the others as well, waiting to trap him between them. At least, he will find Graendal and<br />Rahvin. I think Lanfear plays another game, one the others know nothing about.&quot;<br /><br /><br />This little bit in particular: &quot;At least, he will find Graendal and Rahvin.&quot;<br /><br />Moggy pretty much says who Rand is going to find in Camylen. Thus it should have been obvious to us as soon as Asmo was killed. <br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Why on earth would anybody want to kidnap a groundhog?&quot;<br /><br />&quot;I can think of a few reasons, the pervert!&quot;</font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-03 18:48:40
subject: <b>The fish don't matter!</b>
body:
Now, i just want to say that the Graendal theory sounds great and is a very good evidence to the killer of Asmodean.  Yet the fish part doesn't matter for the pure reason that Rhavin could have had that ready for Rand for weeks before it was triggered when Rand ran past the pond. It would NOT have been undone if Rhavin had set this tray even an hour earier.  After all, Rand only burned Rhavin out of 30 minutes of the pattern.  So if he set it earier, that would explain why the bites were still on Rand.  That is what I think at least.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /> Sancheward <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-19 22:33:30
subject: <b>Excerpt from WotFAQ Against Graendal</b>
body:
What fish? The fish in T'A'R which attack Rand. After Rahvin is BFed, Rand still has fish-bites which Nynaeve must Heal [TFOH: 55, The Threads Burn, 673]. Because BF erases somebody backwards, and Rahvin was erased back to before he entered T'A'R, the bites would have been un-created if Rahvin had made the fish. Thus, somebody else must have made the fish. This third party could have been Graendal. <br /><br />However, this is not how balefire works in T'A'R. Joel Gilmore went to see RJ at a book signing in Australia (21 September, 1999), and here's what he found out: <br /><br /><br />I got an answer to the Rahvin/balefire/T'A'R question - when someone is BFed, the constructs they make in T'A'R do not disappear, but instead fade away slowly over time. There are lots of weird effects associated with T'A'R and balefire, such as the way the world flickers after balefire is used. I asked him just generally about it, and then he jumped straight in, gave the answer, then used the Rand and the fish example. <br />So, the fish were created by Rahvin, and we are left without even that thin bit of evidence that Graendal was anywhere near Caemlyn when Asmodean was whacked. <br /><br />


created: 2002-08-07 22:02:49
subject: <b>Solid Theory</b>
body:
I think the evidence for Graendal being the killer is solid.  Even if Graendal didn't channel the fish, that doesn't matter because there is other evidence that points to her.  I think Windsor brought up a good passage above that pretty much seals the deal.  For anyone who still thinks it's Lanfear, let me just point out that Lanfear is resurrected as Cyndane, so Asmodian wouldn't have recognized her.  Also, it seems like a pretty complicated plan for the DO to retrieve Lanfear from Finnland, resurrect her into a new body and then send her to kill Asmodian.  It would just be easier to use Graendal who is already there.  <br /><br />I also don't think it matters that Graendal channeled.  The Aes Sedai and Wise Ones would have just assumed it was one of there own channeling.  It was most definitely Graendal, so let us put this matter to rest once and for all and move on with our lives. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br />--Bubonic


created: 2002-08-23 15:07:32
subject: <b>Who knew where Asmodean was?</b>
body:
Think back to the darkhound attack on Rand.  Remember the footprints that led up to Asmodean's door, but didn't go in?  Rand erases them, then speculates that maybe there were just looking for something (someone?) and reporting back.<br /><br />Lanfear then tells him that Rahvin sent the darkhounds.  Now, Lanfear's little secret about where Asmodean is isn't a secret anymore.  So . . . who knows where he is?<br /><br />Rahvin would doubtlessly tell the others, and they all know as Nynaeve is spying on them in T'A'R.  So, Graendal, Sammael, Lanfear, Rahvin, Moghedien, and let's not forget Moirain and Rand, all know where Asmodean is . . . with Rand.<br /><br />Rahvin dies, Lanfear dies, Moiraine dies, Moghedien is trapped, Sammael doesn't know WHERE Asmodean went and neither does Rand.  Nobody else knows where he is . . . except Graendal.<br /><br />Yet more proof that she did it.<br /><br />Besides, she's the ONLY one of the forsaken who just out and out SAYS that he's dead.  (or at least that she's sure of it.)<br /><br />There really are no other suspects, and she's the obvious choice.<br /><br />As to how she got into Caemlyn . . . the True Power.  NOBODY can feel that.<br /><br />And the fishbite thing doesn't prove she was in T'A'R as others have pointed out.<br /><br />Anyway . . . my two cents worth.


created: 2002-12-02 21:52:59
subject: <b>Truth</b>
body:
Truth is found through reason, and you have reasoned enough to shame the rest of us till Judgement Day.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Would you fight the Dark One for a Klondike Bar???<br /><br />I would . . .</font><p></p>


created: 2003-01-16 02:27:56
subject: <b>I'm sorry, but your wrong</b>
body:
First off, in chapter 6, when Sammael and Graendal are talking they both talk about Asmodean's killing as if someone else did it, thinking that it was Rand . <br /><br />Also in chapter 23 when Graendal visited Sammael, even though they didn't talk about the killing explicitly, when they were talking about Rand killing Sammael messanger, they metioned that Rand probly killed Asomodean, also. <br /><br />Also this theory says that Asmodean felt a breeze and or shiver in response to Graendals channeling, which was never metioned in the book. Instead he was shivering thinking about his existance after being brought back to life when Rand killed Rahvin with balefire. The exact quote is, &quot;Idly-but with a shiver, too- he wonderd whether being reborn in this fashion made him a new man.&quot;<br /><br />And even if there was some channeling when she opend the portal, Aviendha would have noticed. In fact it probly wasn't a woman channeling anything but a tiny amount, or Aviendha would have noticed that, but that's another theory.   <br /><br />And in rsponse to the fact that the fish bites were there after Rahvin was balefired means that Graendal must have set the trap is not conclusive. Rahvin was waiting for Rand for days, and set his own wards to protect himself, and he could have set the wards way before Rand Balefired him. So the ward that set fishes on Rand could have been set far enough before the Balefire as to not be affected by it's erasal of Rahvins actions.<br /><br />Also, Graendal has no reason to help Rahvin out a little bit, they could have linked with Sammael, as they were planning, and easily decematated Rand. True, the Forsakens mistrust twords each other could have made them hesitant to link, but it's just as likely that Graendal just wasn't there and was back stabbing Rahvin. So the fishes are not conclusive proof.<br /><br />I am a little inclined to agree with you, just by instinct, but this theory is in no way &quot;Conclusive.&quot;


created: 2003-02-24 20:11:09
subject: <b>mmm</b>
body:
why would greandal(sp?) kill asmo right on the spot?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Press START</font><p></p>


created: 2003-03-12 16:11:57
subject: <b>Why wouldn't she?</b>
body:
Of course Graendal would kill him on the spot.  He is a traitor, plus he would recognize her and could sound an alarm.<br /><br />I am not sure about the Granedal/Sammael conversation but I seem to recall Graendal saying something to the effect of &quot;Rand killed him.&quot; instead of &quot;Rand must have killed him.&quot;  As if she is sure he is dead.<br /><br />Besides, it cannot be anyone else.  The Lanfear theory is flimsy at best, and RJ saying we meet his killer in tFoH seals it for me. We met Lanfear in tGH.


created: 2003-05-15 10:21:50
subject: <b>why graendal was still there</b>
body:
the evidence is very overwhelming for your theory, looking at it now. As for why she stayed in caemlyn, I have a different thought.<br /><br />After Sammael died, we see Graendal looting Sammael's palace for objects of the pwoer and whatnot. All the Forsaken found astasis boxes, and she probably stuck around to filch Rahvin's goodies. channeled her way around, and found ehrself face to face with Asmodean, struck him down and dissapeared.<br /><br />my question, my doubt, is if it's such a simple answer, why did Jordan go and make ti so mysterious a passage, why kleep us intrigued so long?


created: 2004-07-09 14:37:58
subject: <b>Doubtful</b>
body:
The difference between Greandal looting Sammael's house and Rand's is this: <br /><br />Rand was in Caemlyn at the time Asmo died. He wasn't in Illian City, he was riding around mopping up Sammael's armies. And we know that Greandal is reluctant to come near anywhere Rand is. Also, she knew that Sammael had found a stasis box while she would've been just guessing with Rahvin. <br /><br />So: In Greandal's mind, she would have risked meeting Rand just to go into the Royal Palace to look for a stasis box that there was no indication that it existed?<br /><br />That is too big a risk for Greandal, therefore this is not why.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">9/10/06, 3:15 PM, Lambeau Field. See you there. <br /><br />Belals Girl is so nice to me &quot;If you guys need any help <br />killing him, let me know.&quot;<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />I don't care what ANYONE says, Lan DID kill Asmo!! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-10-22 18:28:18
subject: <b>The Dastardly Plot</b>
body:
OK, guys, we seem to be a little confused about the Forsaken's plot to capture/kill Rand in TFoH.  Ok, let's look at the facts:<br /><br />FACT:  The plotters were Graendal, Lanfear, Sammael, and Rahvin.<br />FACT:  The plan was to lure Rand into attacking Sammael.  Not Rahvin.<br /><br />You want proof, you say?<br /><br />1.  Sammael sends the attacks on Rand in the Waste, or at least the DF's are shouting, &quot;Sammael!  Sammael and the Bees!&quot;  (The Golden Bees of Illian.)  <br />2.  Sammael attacks Rand in Cairhien.  Or, at least, obsensibly it's Sammael.  Rand comes to that conclusion because it was Sammael who attacked him in the waste.<br />3.  They also talk about how Rand must be focused on Sammael when Nyn overhears them in T'A'R.<br />4.  Melindhra was RAHVIN's agent, not Sammael's.  When Nyn spies on them, she hears Rahvin say, &quot;If need be, one close to him will die, plainly by your order.&quot;  So when Melindhra learns from Mat that Rand's going to Caemlyn to attack Rahvin, she flips out and tries to stab him with the Golden Bees dagger.  Plainly by Sammael's order.<br /><br />FACT:  Moggy said that Rahvin and Graendal were waiting for Rand to attack Sammael in Illian.  Then they would link and crush him.<br />FACT:  The attack was planned for that day, because Moggy says so.  Rahvin was waiting in Caemlyn.  <br /><br />But wait!  If Rahvin and Graendal were waiting together, it stands to reason that Graendal was in Caemlyn also!<br /><br />FACT:  Sammael doesn't want to link with the other Forsaken unless he has command of the ring.  But Rahvin is fine with it.<br /><br />Interesting that Graendal and Rahvin are together, and not in Illian.  This suggests that Graendal and Rahvin would recieve some sort of signal, link, and Travel to Illian to face Rand.<br /><br />FACT:  Graendal says that she will not confront Rand directly.<br /><br />With only her and Rahvin in Caemlyn, it makes sense that she would not have the guts to fight Rand with him.<br /><br />FACT:  Graendal has looted the homes of dead Forsaken.  She does it with Sammael.  She said there was some risk involved, because Rand and the Asha'man were constantly in and out of Sammael's chambers, but it was worth the risk to remove all traces that she was allied with Sammael.<br /><br />SO!  Graendal supposes it important enough to remove those traces that she will risk her precious hide in Illian.  Doesn't it make sense that she would do the same with Rahvin?  I find it very plausible that she would be in Caemlyn during the time frame that Asmo was killed...<br /><br />Graendal-dunnit.


created: 2007-11-27 12:06:04
subject: <b>No No and No!</b>
body:
Rand did it! He knew Asmodean's whereabouts, and is not afraid to unleash Balefire. He doesn't question where his mentor and teacher has gone, and tells us that he as gone to &quot;visit someone&quot;. <br /><br />Finally, Asmodean is shocked that the killer would actually be... whoever it was. &quot;You? No!&quot;. Rand was his 'branch to hold on onto in a flood', and that would explain his surprise at being betrayed/disposed of.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Just your average Christian WoT reader gone social.</font><p></p>


created: 2008-01-26 23:18:18
subject: <b>split</b>
body:
is there any support that perhaps rand lost himself in the moment and lews therin took over he would certainly have been recognized and suprized asmodian and there is no secret that he has no love for pretty much anyone that can channel anywhere near him the phrase kill them now seemed to come out often. There seems to be more to this split in personality than the suface who is to say that the fortelling of Rands death in the final battle could hint to the seperation of the two personalities with only part of rand dieing and perhaps leaving something behind that is alive not quiet whole and still rand.


created: 2008-09-14 17:09:48
subject: <b>Agreed</b>
body:
I know this is a very old theory, and I really never post here. However, I have seen this theory looked at from so many different ways, and I think we are all over-thinking it. <br /><br />I have read, and re-read a lot of the stuff on this site, and I have to say it's Graendal for certain. I love the books, but I haven't had the chance to scrutinize them as much as many people here. <br /><br />Although I am not &quot;the most casual observer&quot;, I come a lot closer than most...It can't be Lanfear, she was dead (at that point in time, to the most casual observer). It has to be Graendal, because she was a Forsaken, with the ability to be recognized by Asmodean, and with the ability to prevent him from fighting back as she killed him (shielding, maybe?). <br /><br />She was also in that plot with the other Forsaken, and had reason to be there (eliminate evidence of her involvement, get cool AoL stuff, or just visiting with her co-conspirator when Rand came in fighting). <br /><br />With Rand and company roaming freely after recently destroying a powerful Forsaken, she had reason for stealth. A pantry makes perfect sense; she is not going to go about sneaking in and out of the palace through the throne room or some other frequently visited location. Furthermore, she had motive. Namely; fear, opportunity for advancement, and anger. Fear because she believes Asmodean has turned, and would have every reason to confine her/report her/hurt her after accidentally discovering her. Opportunity for advancement because it could get her in good standing with the DO, and eliminate rivals for Nae'blis. Anger because Asmodean was sitting there teaching Rand all of this great stuff about the AOL, making him more powerful and harder to kill and/or manipulate. <br /><br />Asmodean bumped into her. She likely shielded him/perhaps lashed out with one of those uber-compulsion weaves, and then killed him. The shield or uber-compulsion would explain Asmodean's &quot;NO!&quot; If he had just been killed outright, he might not have had time for that. Then, she killed him; he was a traitor, and she could not possibly make any use of him. Also, he knew about her presence there, and that could hurt her. <br />


created: 2001-04-14 00:00:00
subject: <b>Hate to disagree <img src="images/smile.gif" /></b>
body:
I disagree with wotmania (again).... I don't think Asmo was balefired because there's absolutely nothing to suggest that his thread was plucked before he died.... everything he did would have been like it never happened and only the memories would remain....  now it could've been a very small amount of BF but, still something would be amiss...


created: 2001-07-18 18:04:52
subject: <b>Asmodean killed by balefire, but...</b>
body:
I agree and disagree. I think Asmodean was killed by balefire mainly due to the description and the fact that it leaves no trace whatsoever, but I never looked at the Dark One's comment as meaning balefire. I just looked at it as &quot;He's a traitor.&quot;<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b> <i> KLitke7967 </i> </b></font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-21 14:37:50
subject: <b>Points on either side</b>
body:
The similarity between the deaths of Asmodean and Belal is more than coincidence:  the descriptions <br />are so alike there must surely be some significance to it.<br /><br />Be'lal: 'specks dancing in the light for less than a heartbeat, flecks consumed before his cry faded'<br />Asmodean: 'his words still hung in the air when death took him'<br /><br />Having said that, I find it hard to see why Balfire would be used.  If it was one of the Chosen who killed Asmodean, as is probable, why eliminate Asmodean's  thread from the pattern, denying him the <br />slow death that a traitor of the Great Lord must surely have wanted.  It even removes the ability of the Dark One to reaincarnate him and hand him to Semirhage....<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">~netweaver~<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-11-06 13:58:23
subject: <b>well</b>
body:
Could be me, but I don`t see the importance of this discussion. Asmo is dead, and I`m his reincarnation, that`s it.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Alex the Chosen<br /><br />The True Fifteenth Forsaken<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /> Member of The Wotmania Revival Corps <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jordan.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /> Leader of &quot;the Order of Sodamachine&quot; <br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /> Trigger is cool <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /> Christ is the coolest <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/angel.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-11 05:19:58
subject: <b>NO BALEFIRE</b>
body:
Asmodean was not killed by balefire.  The &quot;similarities&quot; between Be'lal's death and Asmodean's don't really seem to be similarities to me at all.  There a lot of ways to die quickly.<br /><br />Secondly, Rand would have felt balefire being used in a second.  More likely than not, he would have detected saidar too.  The True Power or a physical weapon seem most likely to me.<br /><br />As to WHO, the great, great question, there are all sorts of folks who could have done it.  I don't buy Moiraine or Lanfear for a second.  Literarily, Demandred would be the obvious choice, since he's the featured star of the following book's prologue.  In that scene, the DO clearly states that from now on, the DO and only the DO will be deciding who lives and dies.<br /><br />Demandred also has the most to gain from Asmodean's death.  By killing Asmodean, Demandred eliminates competition (Asmodean himself, however meager), he eliminates the teacher of his arch-rival, and firmly puts himself one step closer to Nae'blis.  Demandred was a skilled swordsman back in the day, just like LTT, and his appearance to Asmodean in a pantry would ilicit both surprise and recognition (it's little likely that Asmodean even knows Demandred is free yet when he dies).<br /><br />Graendal is an interesting guess as well, but not because Jordan did or did not hint at it in some supposed online chat that none of us has actually seen.  If Robert Jordan himself knocked on my door and told me Graendel did it, maybe I'd believe him then.<br /><br />I know it sounds stupid, but I don't think Shaidar Haran could have fit in a mortal pantry.  I also don't think Asmodean would necessarily recognize him.  <br /><br />Samael is a good choice too, for he hated LTT and hates Rand equally.  Still, RJ makes it abundantly obvious that he operates best from a defensive position.  Running to Caemlyn to whack Asmodean even before the balefire motes have settled seems hasty to me.<br /><br />Padan Fain is an excellent idea, and an evil dagger across the throat certainly would take care of business lickety-split.  I am unsure about Fain's movements around this time in the series.  I need to reread a bit.<br /><br />Moridin.  The less said about this guy the better.  I need a good two more books to even begin to figure out how I feel about him.  He's a possibility, but I don't like to theorize much about him.<br /><br />Sorry for the tangent.  To sum up, Asmodean indeed was NOT killed by balefire.  Look for a bloody sword or dagger.<br /><br />-Braidtugger


created: 2002-04-18 14:18:07
subject: <b>Not balefire damnit</b>
body:
If you look at everything, Graendal is the only forsaken not accounted for at the time of Asmo's death, and she is positive that he is dead later on. I think that the reason nobody realized what happened was because she used the True Power instead of the One power to kill Asmo, so that way she wouldn't be detected. At that point, neither Moridin nor Shadar Hanan had been introduced into the series, so maybe the DO was still allowing the remaining forsaken to use the TP.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rand.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Kneel and swear to the Lord Dragon, or you shall be knelt! - Mazrim Taim<br /><br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-07 13:00:33
subject: <b>Of course not balefire. Duh!</b>
body:
Everybody seems to be neglecting the fact that the Chosen (who were all part of the War of Power) REALLY don't want to use balefire.  I don't remember which of the Chosen(other than Ishamael) throws it at Rand (is it Sammael or Rahvin?), but they're doing it in the last defense of their life (kinda like when they'd use the True Power).  I don't have all the books with me to look up a quote, but they tend to abide by the No Balefire oath...  When Demandred goes to Shayol Ghul, the DO asks him IF...   IF!  he will release the balefire in his service.<br /><br />NOW.<br /><br />Why would one of the Chosen use a weapon that they were so reluctant to use when there's a trillion different ways to kill a partially sheilded weakling?  Instantly!(heart stopping, head bashing, burning to a cinder with regular fire, etc.)  It's the same reason I would doubt use of the TP unless the killer was Moridin (and it's been pretty well proven that it was Graendal).<br /><br />So the poor little WoT addict's comment on the whole thing...<br /><br /><br />GRAENDAL killed him with the ONE POWER, but WITHOUT balefire.  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-07-11 23:05:44
subject: <b>Correct he was not</b>
body:
When the Dark one talked about Rahvin her said even I can't undo Balefire. He really didn't include Asmodean in the same sentence as the Balefire comment. Asmodean was a waste and the Dark One just doesn't care to bring him back.


created: 2002-08-09 00:34:04
subject: <b>In responce</b>
body:
The DO's statement, although it doesn't support the use of balefire, it certainly doesn't preclude it.  Even if Asmodean wasn't BFed the DO wouldn't have ressurected him, so I doubt he even tried.  The DO probably doesn't know whether or not Asmodean was BFed.  Though, because of the reasons above I do believe that Asmo was BFed, (and I believe that Lanfear did it, if anyone wants to know why I'll write a theory on it.)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Well Mom, that's because I hate your cretinous friends, and if I did somehow get drunk and knocked up, I'd be skewering your unborn grandchild with a knitting needle right now.<br /><br />-Krakow 2.0<br /><br />http://www.nerdparadise.com</font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-25 11:10:26
subject: <b>Asmodean May Have Been Balefired</b>
body:
While I'm fairly sure that Asmodean was not killed by Balefire, it is possible.  It is nigh well impossible that he was killed using either Saidin or Saidar (as Rand, Mat, or Aviendha would have felt it), it could be he was killed using the power from the DO.  None of the channelers, except for Asmodean, that are in the palace would have felt it being used and it would have been a handy way to get rid of all the evidence.  <br />Also at this point in the books Moridin hasn't shown up and been given the only use of the True Power.  So he could have been killed by another Forsaken.


created: 2003-03-03 01:23:43
subject: <b>mmm</b>
body:
yeah i just reread LoC and the DO doesn't compare Be'lal to anybody...maybe Be'lal is alive...YES!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Press START</font><p></p>


created: 2003-04-26 11:39:25
subject: <b>Be'lal is dead, dude.</b>
body:
Be'lal was balefired; you cannot resurrect someone who has been BFed, so the history/facts/proof goes.<br /><br />I am convinced that Graendal killed Asmodean. The 'You? NO!&quot; may prove that he expected the person stepping from the gateway to be Rand, but it obviously wasn't. The other Forsaken/Chosen were not happy with him -- any of them would have killed him on the spot, except for Lanfear, because that would contradict her whole purpose of plopping him down with Rand for a few days of playing school. She's dead et/or gone, anyway.<br /><br />Asmodean didn't do anything important right before he was killed -- BFing him would not really affect much. Maybe Graendal BFed him... maybe not.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Lissa M. Rose<br /><br />&quot;Bring out your dead!&quot;<br /><br />&quot;You don't frighten us, English pig-dog! Go and boil your bottoms, son of a silly person. I blow my nose on you, so-called Arthur-king, you and your silly English kiii-niggits!&quot;<br /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-10-25 12:30:05
subject: <b>Bashere is my killer.</b>
body:
It can't be a coincidence that Asmodean is killed the same day that Bashere comes to Rand.<br />All the other suspects would have killed him a lot sooner to prevent him helping Rand,or for his betrayal.Opening a portal and balefireing him could easily have been done much earlier.<br />Asmodean has to be killed to keep the real identity of Bashere a secret.Bashere is also seen carrying a jug of wine.<br />If Bashere did it on his own or had help from someone else I don't know.<br />Bashere also gets Rand's ear very quickly and Rand wants his advice a lot.It wouldn't have been possible when Asmodean was there.<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flamingsword.gif" border="0" /> It's time to toss the dice.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bandredhand.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-01 21:48:05
subject: <b>naw</b>
body:
I would like to point out that Half of what Rand learned and did throughout the first few books was by Mitosis,  for those of you who haven't had Bio in a long time thats when particles freely cross back and forth over a barrier.  In fact i think several of the things he did before he knew what he was doing worked better(I share this unfortunate talent<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />)<br />And besides this point Your suggestin the LTT can take over Rands body Somethig that has never happened and i think would be a major part of the plot if it were to happen.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where did these Skimmers come from?  I mean if they didn't want to read the book they could have just Traveled to another author.  Why risk arriving at the wrong destination?  Why risk falling into darkness?</font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-12 10:35:40
subject: <b>Fel`s death</b>
body:
When you have finished WH, it`s pretty obvious that Fel was killed by the Gholam <br />(well actually there are still six of them <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/oh.gif" border="0" /> =)<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/frown.gif" border="0" />I`ve got Dyslexia<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/frown.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" />Surely the reason for my spelling errers<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/jester.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-03-30 12:11:50
subject: <b>Duhhh</b>
body:
Fel was killed by a Gholum, (sp?) its really obvious, as soon as I read it I was like, &quot;that dirty gholum, how could he hurt him. That was sooo mean&quot;. It is practically spelled out that it was a gholum who killed him. Who sent the gholum though is another question all together though.....<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /> True Power is knowing that you can, but you don't. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-red.gif" border="0" /> -Deathbone1 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-green.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Current rank in Wse PTS: 164 out of top 1000 (7/8/03)<br />We are men of action. Lies do not become us.<br />Life finds a way.<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-07-07 21:33:29
subject: <b>Who cares about Fel?</b>
body:
What does Fel have to do with any of this?  It was a theory that Lews Therin killed Asmodean, aka Jasin Natael.  Yes, a gholam killed Herid Fel, but so what?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Luck is a horse to ride like any other<br /><br />StaffWielder@wotmania.com</font><p></p>


created: 2004-01-14 16:36:38
subject: <b>Um actually</b>
body:
&gt;i&gt;would like to point out that Half of what Rand learned and did throughout the first few books was by Mitosis, for those of you who haven't had Bio in a long time thats when particles freely cross back and forth over a barrier. In fact i think several of the things he did before he knew what he was doing worked better(I share this unfortunate talent)<br />And besides this point Your suggestin the LTT can take over Rands body Somethig that has never happened and i think would be a major part of the plot if it were to happen&lt;/i&gt;<br /><br />The word you're looking for is &quot;osmosis&quot; I believe. Mitosis is cell division.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I am cool, are you? <br /><br />The kicker of the seals <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <br />The flame that burned down Tar Valon <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br />My arse is the Amyrlin Seat</font><p></p>


created: 2006-07-11 11:54:43
subject: <b>I must say...</b>
body:
Kid, ya got guts. I'll give ya that. You make an interesting argument. One no one had thought of. Problem is, you don't have nearly enough evidence to support your theory.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">I lost the game.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-19 18:15:45
subject: <b>Asmodean is not Cyndane?</b>
body:
I noticed from Oliver's &quot;Re: Asmodean Was NOT Killed by Balefire&quot; posted on 1/22/01.  &quot;Could Asmodean be Cyndane?&quot; was mentioned.  In Winter's Heart toward the end, Cyndane calls Rand al'Thor Lews Therin.  Lanfear was the only one during this Age to call him that.  Cyndane does seem to act like her in some way, but less powerful because of the Eelfinn.  I also believe Cyndane called him that earlier too.


created: 2001-08-27 08:13:32
subject: <b>Cyndane can't be Asmodean...</b>
body:
Because, in Winter's Heart, she mentions - in her mind - that &quot;the time with the eelfin/aelfin had taught her well.&quot;  This is also and argument on the behalf of those who believes/wants to believe that Moiraine is alive <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" />


created: 2002-01-29 20:19:39
subject: <b>Cyndane is Lanfear</b>
body:
In her last POV in WH, she talks of how Rand (maybe she said LTT, I'm not sure) spurned her love.  I don't think Asmodean would say that.  Channels Saidar.  Maybe the A/Eelfinn granted one of her/Moiraine's wishes, and it got twisted so that she is weaker.  <br />Did someone already state this?<br />I'm new by the way.  Hi! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-07-18 18:01:27
subject: <b>My thoughts on Taim</b>
body:
Actually, I just researched this myself and posted it as a theory...and then found this saying essentially the same thing! There are ways Asmodean could have recognized him, though. First off, Taim is a channeler of immense strength, as Rand comments that he is able to channel only a little less than himself (and maybe more than he actually was holding, if he lied). Don't you think the Forsaken would have latched on to him? Someone would have. Let's say for these purposes it was Lanfear, as she becomes the most likely with what I'll be saying here. Lanfear is obsessed with Lews Therin, and expects him to reborn soon, due to everything that's happening, like the seals being weakened. So, she convinces Taim, a powerful channeler, to declare himself the Dragon Reborn. This way she knows when Lews Therin declares himself, just in case. As it turns out it didn't matter, because she found him first, but why not have a backup plan? (A quick note, I'm not sure when Taim declared himself and when Lanfear escaped, so this might not be exact here, but if Lanfear escaped after, ignore this part and continue on). So, Taim is captured and being taken to the White Tower. Around this time, Lanfear appears in the White Tower, talking to Mat (and Egwene? I can't remember when Egwene saw her). She may have been there for another reason, perhaps figuring out how to get Taim released. So, Taim escapes, and Lanfear (with Asmodean in tow) appears to him. Lanfear has Asmodean teach Taim something (balefire, gating, whatever), and then has Taim go to Andor. So, then we go through the Shadow Rising. We know what happens there. Now, Lanfear goes to Taim and says &quot;If anything happens to me, kill Asmodean.&quot; or something of the like, and tells him who he is. Lanfear apparently dies (and since she's Cyndane, probably does at some point). Taim is prepared to go to Cairhien (just a guess, where everyone assumed Rand and Asmodean are). Suddenly (like, the day of or after Lanfear's death, I believe), Rand gates in and all hell breaks loose. After he kills Rahvin, Asmodean winds up dead. It's not exactly likely, but it is possible. Or perhaps Lanfear didn't order Asmodean dead, but Taim had other orders (or working of his own free will now) to get on Rand's good side somehow, and Asmodean would recognize him as a darkfriend. It is a possibility, folks.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b> <i> KLitke7967 </i> </b></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-31 12:30:42
subject: <b>Hmmm....</b>
body:
An interesting proposition.  We don't really know where Asmodean was before traveling with those merchant Darkfriends, and he may have run into Taim on his travels (or Travels).  Another thing, though, why would Taim want to kill Asmodean?  Was he just in the wrong place at the wrong time?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">When in danger, when in doubt, run in circles, scream and shout<br /><br />&quot;It's the owner of the flowerbed<br />She grew roses to hide her brother, dead<br />This is the proof that I must show<br />Watch this tape and you will know&quot;<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-03 14:11:14
subject: <b>Not likely</b>
body:
As you mentioned, it seems unlikely that Asmo would have recognized Taim, much less been that afraid of him.  Also Taim has no motive to kill Asmo, unless you take the response above and think Lanfear recruited him, which seems highly unlikely to me, and even if she had, there's almost no way for Taim to have known she died that day anyway.<br /><br />As for your number 3 about the letters, that was stated shortly after tFoH came out, at the time Graendal wasn't a high contender for killing Asmo, in fact I believe this statement is what lead people to start thinking that Graendal did it.<br /><br />Until I see some definate proof that Graendal didn't do it or someone else did for sure, I'm sticking with her.  She may only be there because of an elimination of the rest, but the others were still eliminated.<br /><br />Jim<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Sir Jim<br />Lord of Minutia&#8482;<br />King of WoT MB Posts&#8482;<br /><br />Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so.</font><p></p>


created: 2001-08-29 18:01:56
subject: <b>Well</b>
body:
Based on this theory, it is either Graendal or Slayer. Personally, I think it was Isam/Slayer/whatever (he can step out of the dream wherever he wants without channeling. I don't think it was Taim, because the amount of Power required to kill someone that rapidly would draw Rand's attention like bee's to honey. He would go nuts and Travel to that spot immediately, or perhaps just destroy that spot.


created: 2001-12-11 18:18:47
subject: <b>Another thought on Taim</b>
body:
I really had never even considered Taim, but lets look at this more in depth. If it was Taim, then that means Asmo would have recognized him, which means that perhaps he and Lanfear had a similar arrangment to teach him how to use his power so they could use him to further the cause of the darkside. (I am assuming Taim is a darkfriend here, but Rand wasn't and they taught him hoping to recruit him.) Now Taim, finding Asmo with Rand assumes (correctly) that Asmo is teaching Rand how to channel. Taim, being arrogant, wants to be the Dragon Reborn, and feels it might further his cause if he kills Asmo before he can teach Rand anymore. Taim does seem to have alot of knowledge, and it has been suggested before that he may have been taught by a forsaken. I will sum it up by saying that I believe Taim did actually have a reason to kill Asmo, apart from the theory that Lanfear ordered him to.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Pronounced: &quot;Rand was here&quot;<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/shakefist.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/banana.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/rant.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-14 07:42:02
subject: <b>I like it</b>
body:
People,<br />Think of it this way.  What if it was Taim was a darkfriend that did have a relationship of some kind with Asmo before Asmo was attached to Rand?  Then he would definately have to remove Asmo before he could come forward to ask for Amnesty from Rand.  Asmo would be right there to piont out that he was a darkfriend.  This does work esspecially well if he is a darkfriend that has been bounced from forsaken to forsaken.  that Black tower would not even exisit if not for Taim.  Besided, I think that he knew what Rand was going for asking of amnstey to all men that could channel that came to him.  He would have been killed right off the bat if Asmo spotted him.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">BORDERLANDER<br /><br />TAIM WAS NEVER DEMANDRED<br />&quot;All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident.&quot; <br />- Arthur Schopenhauer <br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-02-24 20:04:55
subject: <b>hmmm</b>
body:
if i recall, didnt jordan say that the killer had been revealed( i use that term loosely, i mean that they showed up before asmos death)so that would rule out taim...and taims a lightfriend!wee!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Press START</font><p></p>


created: 2003-03-18 19:31:46
subject: <b>Well...</b>
body:
Well, all he said was that it should be obvious at the time of death. While this isn't as &quot;obvious&quot; as it seems, since nobody knows for sure, that tells us that anyone who had never been heard from beforehand couldn't be a suspect. Taim was mentioned in Eye of the World and The Great Hunt, and also was mentioned 2 or 3 pages before Asmodean's death. it was revealed that Taim was currently in Caemlyn.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><b> <i> KLitke7967 </i> </b></font><p></p>


created: 2003-04-03 12:26:41
subject: <b>I agree...</b>
body:
For a while now, I've thought Taim killed Asmo.  Why?  Otherwise, Asmo would tell Rand Taim is a darkfriend.<br /><br />The main problem with this theory is: How did Taim and Asmo meet?<br /><br />Here's my theory:<br />Asmo and Lanfear helped Taim escape the Aes Sedai.  Asmo teaches Taim for a brief period, which reinforces Lanfear's idea that Asmo be Rand's tutor.<br />To ensure that Taim really can channel, Asmo does the test.  Taim picks it up, and later shows Rand.  Asmo never taught that basic weave to Rand, so Taim is surprised Rand does not know it.<br />Asmo also probably tells Taim about the Old Tongue and history.  Taim calls the Aiel &quot;so-called&quot;.  While I may be reading way too much into this, he may use that phrase because he knows a little about the history of the Aiel.  Asmo, who will be associating with the Aiel shortly, may have told Taim this story.<br />Another theory I have is that the DL does not immediately know of Asmo's death.  When he talks to Dem. at the beginning of aCoS, nothing the DL says suggests that Asmo is dead.  What he suggests is that Asmo has turned, and will die for it.  If Slayer, as some suggest, killed Asmo, the DL would know of it.  If any of the Forsaken had killed Asmo, the DL would likely know of it.  But if it was Taim, a darkfriend who has not yet attained Forsaken status, the DL might not know about it yet.<br /><br />Anyway, there's no real proof to this argument, and I know most people that read this will still think the killer Graendal.  It's another possibility, I suppose.  Either way, I raise a question: Should Taim be a darkfriend, which Forsaken is he associating with?


created: 2003-06-29 19:22:07
subject: <b>wow</b>
body:
u have bad grammar<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former.&quot; <br />- Albert Einstein<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-06-29 19:22:35
subject: <b>wow</b>
body:
i didnt even read it because few ppl have<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former.&quot; <br />- Albert Einstein<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-06-29 19:22:50
subject: <b>wow</b>
body:
i dont make any sence<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former.&quot; <br />- Albert Einstein<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-06-29 19:23:04
subject: <b>wow</b>
body:
i just take up space<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former.&quot; <br />- Albert Einstein<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-06-29 19:23:32
subject: <b>wow</b>
body:
and i use whole seperate entrees for different comments<br /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former.&quot; <br />- Albert Einstein<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-06-29 19:23:53
subject: <b>wow</b>
body:
sounds dum<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former.&quot; <br />- Albert Einstein<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-06-29 19:24:43
subject: <b>wow</b>
body:
well unwow really<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former.&quot; <br />- Albert Einstein<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-06-29 19:25:01
subject: <b>wow</b>
body:
im mr. random space taker<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former.&quot; <br />- Albert Einstein<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2003-06-29 19:25:14
subject: <b>wow</b>
body:
im really bored<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">&quot;Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former.&quot; <br />- Albert Einstein<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-11-21 11:11:32
subject: <b>a non space-consuming comment</b>
body:
think about asmodeans last words:<br />you! no<br />perhaps asmodean thought taim was demandred (many reasonably sensible readers still think this!)and said:<br />you!<br />this would explain the fear and suprise displayed by asmodean.<br />then it dawned on him that the man before him wasnt demandred so he said:<br />no<br />many assume that he displayed disbelief with the phrase no, but it could just have easily been asmodean thinking aloud. unfortuneatley taim killed asmodean on the spot , so we were unable to learn anymore.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> let the speedbart ride again upon the winds of time <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Made the second post on the new WoTMB2 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2004-11-21 11:19:07
subject: <b>oooo another relatively small and useless thought!</b>
body:
taim could have done it to get close to rand. taim may associate his failure as a false dragon to the sudden appearance of rand in the sky. this would give taim a serious reason to hate rand. the problem with killing rand is he trusts no-one and the only people he keeps close are those he needs. taim senses asmodeans use of saidin during the battle (he was in the area at the time), and comes to the conclusion that he needs to eliminate this threat to get close to rand!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> let the speedbart ride again upon the winds of time <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Made the second post on the new WoTMB2 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/approve.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-08 11:53:07
subject: <b>Great Debunking!</b>
body:
However, there is one thing you let out WOTmania, I seem to remember Robert Jordan being asked if &quot;Death took him&quot; was a pun on Moridin.   I also remember his answer was to the effect of &quot;Ohh god no.&quot;<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Bow to the Donut!!!   <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/ring.gif" border="0" /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-18 00:06:16
subject: <b>MAJOR FLAW IN THE ASMODEAN/DASHIVA THEORY!!</b>
body:
Ok, first off, Ishamael was killed by BALEFIRE i.e. not coming back. He is NOT Moridin. Next up is the fact that in book nine or eight (I forgot which), Dashiva, in all his glory, is revealed to be DEMANDRED!!!!! ADMITTED FROM HIS OWN MOUTH!!<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> Can you feel the eyes in the dark? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> Wherever I go, there I am <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /> All shall bow for I am the Chocobo King!! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/king.gif" border="0" /> <br /><br />&quot;A life without hope is no more than a living death&quot;<br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-09-30 14:28:05
subject: <b>What?</b>
body:
I dont remember reading that! When? What page?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">IRAFO*<br /><br />*I Read And Found Out</font><p></p>


created: 2001-10-03 10:39:11
subject: <b>Dashiva</b>
body:
Dashiva is Osan'gar. Jordan admits it at the end of Book 9 while Rand is cleansing saidin.<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />


created: 2001-12-28 22:27:24
subject: <b>Asmo is dead - and NOT coming back.</b>
body:
RJ himself has admitted in an interview that Asmo is definately dead, and not coming back. Of course, he could just be saying so to trick us, but I believe him for now. Dashiva is Osan'gar, that much is proved in WH, last chapter.


created: 2001-12-30 16:01:22
subject: <b>wolfbrother99</b>
body:
you are a moron.  dashiva is not demandred, he is osangar.  also, ishmael was not killed with balefire, rand shoved callandor through his heart.  maybe your comments in the future will be better if you actually READ THE BOOKS! <br /><br />sincerely,<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" />the lover of light and wisdom<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" />the all-seeing eye<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/sauroneye.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />the wandering wotmaniac<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-04-05 18:33:46
subject: <b>No Kidding</b>
body:
It is nice bashing other people who don't read the books isn't it?<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /> True Power is knowing that you can, but you don't. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/narg.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-red.gif" border="0" /> -Deathbone1 <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/lightsaber-green.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Current rank in Wse PTS: 164 out of top 1000 (7/8/03)<br />We are men of action. Lies do not become us.<br />Life finds a way.<br /></font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-28 18:01:32
subject: <b>Ismael didn't take Asmodean</b>
body:
Your theory simply cannot work. If Ishmael means &quot; and  took him&quot; The the word &quot; should have been capitalized, and it wasn't. Simple, no?<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>If you can't find much wrong with your manuscript, then it's probably so awful it should be burnt.</i>--Sara Douglass</font><p></p>


created: 2002-05-28 18:07:11
subject: <b>TYPO</b>
body:
sorry about that last post there, somehow it deleted some words in the middle. I meant to say that if Ismael means  and the book says that  took him&quot; then the word &quot; should have been capitalized, and it wasn't. I don't know why it didn't write that in the first place, but hopefully this time it will be posted correctly<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1"><i>If you can't find much wrong with your manuscript, then it's probably so awful it should be burnt.</i>--Sara Douglass</font><p></p>


created: 2002-10-01 22:30:26
subject: <b>Dashiva = Osan'Gar</b>
body:
Osan'Gar his revealed to be Dashiva in the last chapter of WH 'Crouching behind a fallen log, Osan'gar panted from the exertion of running. Those months masquerading as Corlan Dashiva had not made him any fonder of excercise.'<br />And besides, later, Dashiva/Osan'gar is killed by the Darkfriend Elza in the same battle 'Dashiva was only one of those Ashaman. The man raised his hand and Elza drew deeply through Callandor in Jahar's hands. Fire surrounded the hilltop and when it dissipated, there was no Dashiva and the hill ended fifty feet lower than before'<br />HA!<br />


created: 2003-01-28 05:57:08
subject: <b>Let the Lord of Chaos rule</b>
body:
Why cant anyone see that Ishmael isnt dead, at the end of EotW Rand and I belived that The heart og the dark was dead, but in tGH he come back and died in the end, or atleasr I thought so, in the end of tDR he still come and died in the world of dreams, and if you die there you cant come back. But then Moridin come, and I say its preety clearly that he is Ishmael (who else). So what Im trying to say is that Ishmael, alias Elas Morin (or something) never died and was the one taking Asmodean, that was also the time when Moridin was bounding the other forsaken to him.<br /><br />Let the Lord of Chaos rule


created: 2001-04-15 00:00:00
subject: <b>A better point</b>
body:
Graendal asks if, who ever tells them, is sure Asmodean is dead.  Why would she ask, if she killed him.  She would just believe.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Dora Sedai<br />Keeper of the Notes<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/read.gif" border="0" /></font><p></p>


created: 2001-06-11 02:50:03
subject: <b>yeah....?</b>
body:
quick thought,<br />Im not sure of the graendal thing.  And in response to your point wotmania, Rollins i think was saying that rand was still wounded because he believed he was wounded and that nynaeves healing did not effect him at all.  And on the off side sometimes in cases such as these i believe that RJ was caught up in the moment and not so deep into the science of his world.  I had never really considered that part of the story as anything truly special, it fit into what i would expect to happen at that point.  Big battle, bump into friend, quick words, doctor me up cause that was rough, ttyl.  But who know the theory that i read about it being Graendal was convincing im just not sure yet.<br /><br /><br /><font size="-1">Where did these Skimmers come from?  I mean if they didn't want to read the book they could have just Traveled to another author.  Why risk arriving at the wrong destination?  Why risk falling into darkness?</font><p></p>


created: 2001-07-05 11:49:42
subject: <b>I disagree</b>
body:
Of course Rand's subconscious would be aware of the bites, but in TAR YOU have to be thinking about something to disappear, not just some subconscious awareness.<br /><br />Also, the simplest solution tends to be the right one.  What's simpler?  The confusing TAR physics or that Graendal did it?


created: 2001-12-27 05:29:16
subject: <b>hmmm</b>
body:
This makes sense, in a way, and in another way, it doesn't make sense... if that makes any sense! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />OK, so, if Rahvin created the fish that bit Rand, then when he ceased to exist *before* he created the fish, there were no more bites. Except that Rand didn't realize at the time that what Rahvin had err undone went so far back, as we see in his surprise that Asmo Avi etc are all alive.<br /><br />So the real question is, would he or would he not have still had the fish bites, whether he still felt them subconciously or not?<br /><br />The main counter to this is the fact that Egwene, by controlling TAR, caused her bruises to dissapear during her stint to Salidar in the flesh. This, however does NOT mean that the opposite (or whatever it is) would be true with Rand, as he did not conciously think he still had bites, or was concentrating on holding them there. But it might be.<br /><br />I think this is a question that needs to be asked of RJ, as there isn't enough info to answer one way or another. (That I'm aware of, anyways)<br /><br />Of course, this might be an overlook by RJ, as TAR and balefire in the same chapter are awfully confusing, even to the writer i bet. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" />


