# w_theory

created: 2001-10-18 02:48:38
subject: Judas and Betrayal
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<p>Real quick. Thinking about Rand being unconcious for most of the next book I think it would be plausible to assume that Rand might see Mat's marrying the heir to the Seanchan as a betrayal. Mat said &quot;I would never betray you Rand&quot; when they took the stones to Falme but how can you know you'll fall in love with the enemy? So, somehow Mat will say, &quot;hey, just meet her bro&quot; and then they'll get that male A'dam on him because Anath(Semirhage) will be their to do it. But, in the end the Hornsounder will call the heros back in this &quot;moment of great need&quot; and all the interested bodies (Tuon, the Emperess, general essembly, etc.) Will see their great Hawkwing endorse Rand as The Man, and that will save his bacon, thus redeeming Mat.</p><p><b>Raserei says:</b> Would that be his <i>true</i> great time of need?<br /><br />I'd think that Tarmono Gai'don would be a greater thing than that.<br /><br /><br /> </p>


created: 2001-10-19 04:53:21
subject: Hearstone manufacturing made easy
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<p>Heartstone is by definition, the hardest metal known to exist, albeit fashion with the One Power.  Knowing this and also taking into consideration that Hearstone cannot be destroyed and even becomes stronger and more resilient reguardless of the forces directed towards it, one might wonder how the Dark One and/or the forces of the Dark might be able to break it down and destroy it as we see happening at the present time with the Cuendillar Seals placed on the Dark Ones prison.<br /><br />I believe that the reason these seals are weakening are provided to us in the metals namesake, &quot;Heartstone&quot;.  It is the evil permeating the world and for the last 3000 years the evil beating relentlessly against the Dark One's side of the seals which has weakened the them.  Consider that Heartstone is named such because it was fashioned not only with the One Power but also with &quot;Love&quot; (sounds corny, but bear with me.)<br /><br />We know little of the Aiel's true nature and or &quot;power&quot; during the Age of Legends, surely they were not merely a singing, pleasant, anti-violent society of people respected for no other reason that they were nice.  I believe that they, in all their whole-heartedness and love, had a power, that maybe their songs and joy provided a sort of Stedding-like peace inducing effect on people, places and things, and in conjunction with the wielders of the One Power at the time, were able to create feats unkown to us now, such as the making of Heartstone.<br /><br />It is this direct contact I previously mentioned of the Dark One against the seals and all of the evil contained therein which has been weakening the seals, because, while no force can weaken or destroy Cuendillar, one force that was never considered was pure unbridled evil.<br /><br /><br /><br /> </p>


created: 2001-10-20 15:42:11
subject: <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/oh.gif" border="0" />
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<p>I picked up a few clues in GH and WH when i read it the second time, so i'm pretty sure.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> Clue #1: Verin makes a VERY unfortunate slip of the tongue in GH... &quot;The Time of Change, of course, refers to the end of an age, and the Great Lord--&quot; The Amyrlin slapped the tabletop like a thunderclap. &quot;I know very well who the Great Lord is, Daughter. I think you had better go now.&quot; (pg 109, GH, pback) Now, WE all know who would call their master a &quot;Great Lord&quot; (of the Dark) So Verin is either Black Ajah, or Forsaken.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> Clue #2: Verin has a VERY extensive knowledge of the past. In GH, Verin knows how the Portal Stones work, (as does Selene, who we later find out is Lanfear.) However, the Portal Stones are not known by Aes Sedai, even the Browns. Verin also knows about the Chodean Kal, and where the female one is, even though it is buried at the time on Tremalking. So because of the knowledge of the Age of Legends, she would more likely be one of the Forsaken than just a Darkfriend.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> Clue #3: In WH, Verin was just about to poison Cadsuane! &quot;Hastily filling a second cup, Verin slipped the small vial back into her pouch unopened. It was good to be sure of Cadsuane at last.&quot; (pg 495, WH, hback) And Verin has also been planning something for 70 years, too. (I think that was in PoD.)<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> Clue #4: And we also know from Alviarin that Mesaana is currently infiltrating the Aes Sedai.<br /><br />All of these clues point to one thing. Verin is Mesaana!!! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/oh.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />And Bela is Phar Lap Reborn!!! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/oh.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/bela.gif" border="0" /> Well, Maybe not really...</p><p><b>Bad Ash says:</b> Um...no.<br /><br />Your first argument, which would be the most compelling if taken alone, holds no water when you read the context.  Suian and Verin were talking about the Dark Prophecy written on the prison wall in Fal Dara.  They had just gone through it verse by verse, and had come to the last verse, which ends with &quot;Now the Great Lord comes&quot;.  All she was doing was repeating something.<br /><br />The Portal Stone thing is very subjective.  Now poisoning Cadsuane could point to something, as Aes Sedai are not to harm each other.  Perhaps she is of the BA.  But the very fact that she's been planning something for 70 years precludes her from being one of the Forsaken.  The only Forsaken that had been free prior to EotW was Ishamael.<br /><br />Sorry, your theory holds no water.<br /><br /><br /> </p>


created: 2001-10-21 01:41:32
subject: Bonding of Rand and the Last Battle
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<p>I have no idea if this theory will prove true, nonetheless, here goes.  If you remember, in one of the books, tEotW I think, somewhere it is said that a Warder can endure longer without rest and food than a normal man can.<br /><br />Now, Rand has, theoretically, been bonded by four women: Alanna, Aviendha, Elayne, and Min (Although she can't channel). What am I trying to get at?<br /><br />Just this, a man bonded to one Aes Sedai can last a fairly long time without these little necessities. But say, if a man is bonded to four women, can he last longer still? Maybe.  If this is the case, it may just give Rand the edge he needs to last through TG, and face the Dark One.<br /><br />Farfetched as this may sound, it could be one of the many purposes of Rand's three ladies. . . and Alanna.  We will have to wait for a later book to see if this poses true.</p><p><b>Raserei says:</b> I've thought about this too.  It will certainly add something, but wont the three be somehow drained because of it?<br /><br /><br /> </p>


created: 2001-10-21 20:19:32
subject: Aes Sedai age/appearance and stilling
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<p>There is a theory I saw on how come Aes Sedai look so young after being stilled, and why is there a stilled (formed) channeler that looks old. I'll try to put these things together in some way.<br /><br />      First of all, as a channeler continues to do his thing, his aging seems to slow down until it comes down to a halt (it should be roughly comparable to a half-hyperbolic curve - the top-right quadrant of the 1/x function on the interval beginning with the time moment of the start of aging decceleration and ending with the time moment of stilling - to those who remember this from maths). The agelessness of her appearance increases in a roughly opposite (turning the quadrant over on its horizontal axis) proportion, until it is totally ageless. <br /><br />      Then as the channeler is stilled, her ageless appearance dissapears completely, and her appearance returns roughly to the point when she started channeling, or when her agelessness started to show (I can't point it out exactly). But at the time she  starts aging again and her aging accelerates at a similar rate as it deccelerated (in the graph example, turn the quadrant over on its vertical axis) until the time she reaches her biological rate, when she resumes aging normally.<br /><br />      I know there is no evidence whatsoever to this theory, but it is an entirely plausible explanation on the age appearance phenomena associated with Aes Sedai, with most known facts fitting in quite nicely <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" />.<br /><br />P.S.: Don't take the maths examples too seriously, they're just to allow graphic imagination, i'm not thinking of any Aes Sedai equations <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />P.P.S.: I don't know whether channeling affects men's appearance, so this concerns female channelers only<br /><br />P.P.P.S: Any idea on how this would work on women whose stilling was cured and that were to be stilled yet again? Anyone?<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" />Izradi Dellais, i eldalambendil<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /> </p>


created: 2001-10-22 17:00:13
subject: Alviarin will rat on Mesaana
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<p>When last we saw Alviarin, she had already surmised that Mesaana was hiding herself in the Tower and was posing as one of the Sisters.  Obviously, RJ wouldn&#8217;t mention this unless he intended for Alviarin to discover the Forsaken&#8217;s identity.  Which, given her keen, logical mind - will be sooner rather than later.  As Keeper of the Chronicles she would have access to all the Tower&#8217;s records, including such things as the Novice Books.  Perhaps she&#8217;ll discover that there is no record of Danelle ever being a novice.  And even if Mesaana had the foresight to falsify records, Alviarin may discover inconsistencies that would expose Danelle as a liar, and therefore a darkfriend.   Since she knows the names of all the BA, any other darkfriend channelers could only be one of the Forsaken. <br /><br />There is a remote possibility that Alviarin will betray Mesaana to one of the other Forsaken - but this is unlikely because they are more or less &#8220;united&#8221; under Moridin.  <br /><br />There is also a possibility that she will be captured after a successful revolution by the SAS, but I think it more likely that Alviarin will be exposed as a darkfriend by TAS hunting the BA &#8211; and be forced to tell everything she knows.   Judging by the fact that Mesaana missed the last meeting of the Forsaken, this may already have happened.<br /><br /> <br /></p><p><b>StoneDogAiel says:</b> This could very well have happened already, yet I think that RJ would have put that in the book. I think that it is very likely that Alviarin will find out who Mesanna is, but I think that she will be captured in the White Tower coup as a member of the council that deposed Siuan and Alviarin will make the connection then and  turn her in, in hopes of mercy.<br /><br /><br /> </p>


created: 2001-10-22 19:35:45
subject: 9 months till Tarmon Gaidin?
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<p>Hi theory board! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />I was on the train this morning on my way to work and re-reading WOT (sixth time methinks) and I was thoroughly enjoying The Great Hunt (which I never have in the past - only this time I am practically drooling on the pages!!)<br /><br />Anyway I got to the bit where Rand is reunited with Thom and the prophecies of the Dragon are discussed.  We all know the lines by now, but in reading them and knowing of events in Book 9 - a thought suddenly occurred to me.<br /><br />What if the day dawning twice has nothing to do with the actual day or an eclipse or time etc.  But what if it is in fact two days?<br /><br />Let's look at the quote in detail:<br /><br /><i>Twice dawns the day when his blood his shed<br />Once for morning, once for birth<br />Red on black, the Dragon's blood stains the rock of Shayol Ghul<br />In the Pit of Doom shall his blood free men from the Shadow</i><br /><br />First line -<br /><br /><i>Twice dawns the day when his blood his shed.</i> <br /><br />Hmmm&#8230; okay we have:<br />Day #1 for when the wound in Rand's side spills his blood.<br />Day #2 some other kind of 'blood' needs to be shed.  Possibilities include - Elayne's children, Galad, or someone else who carries his blood.<br /><br /><i>Once for morning</i><br /><br />Ok so one day for mourning - Rand's death?<br /><br /><i>Once for birth</i><br /><br />The birth of Elayne's children?  (Or possibly a rebirth by Rand - but let's not go there!!) <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><i>Red on black, the Dragon's blood stains the rock of Shayol Ghul</i><br /><br />Ok again - one day for Rand's blood, mingled with the taint of Shadar Logoth to then work counter to the evil that is the Dark One.  Evil versus evil - indeed Mordeth will get what he always wanted - using the tactics of the Dark One against the Dark One.  The perfect way to destroy thine enemy!!! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><i>In the Pit of Doom shall his blood free men from the Shadow</i><br /><br />Now assuming that one day is already assigned to Rand's wound opening (and his possible death) - maybe now the second day - which can be linked to a possible birth of Elayne's children signifies this last event?<br /><br />If so, then it implies that Elayne will be somewhere in the vicinity of the Bore when Rand fights the Dark One - and possibly then will have her children at the Bore also.<br /><br />Pagan myth often talks about the Mother Goddess, and how her monthly cycle of 'flowing blood' can have wonderful symbolic effects to the land.  Now I am not saying that Elayne has super healing blood, that will clean up Rand's little trickle the day before, but is it possible that Jordan is using this symbolism?<br /><br />The Queen/Mother Goddess archetype (Elayne) will have her children at Shayol Ghul possibly after or maybe before the day that Rand fights the Dark One.  How she arrives there is a mystery that the series itself shall unfold.  But then again, this is all conjecture - but it just might - might I say, ring some element of truth.<br /><br />If so, and if Elayne does give birth, her children would be the blood (the next generation) that would free men from the Shadow.<br /><br />As we know, when Lews Therin Telamon sealed the Bore, the Dark One and the Forsaken were trapped, but the infrastructure of the Friends of Dark was still intact.  One could therefore assume that when Rand fulfils prophecy the Dark One will be imprisoned again outside the Pattern - but the Darkfriends and Dreadlords and armies of Shadow will still be to some degree floating around.  Albeit a bit dazzled and lost, but around nonetheless.  <br /><br />It will probably then fall to Rand's descendants, and all of our heroes remaining to fight the Shadow completely and remove those advocates who will try and re-open the Dark One's prison, cause havoc, etc, etc.  And this process will take more than a heroic end to a fantasy series.  In real life, it would take probably a century or more at a minimum to remove probably all Shadowspawn - hunting renegade Darkfriends may take even longer.<br /><br />Therefore, assuming I am right &#8230; and I prolly aint, but it&#8217;s a bent of thought that I considered viable, we have got roughly nine months left in the series before Tarmon Gaidon - assuming I am right! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Otherwise this hypothesis of mine, was just more exercise for my fingertips in typing.  <br /><br />But either way - it got you thinking, didn't it? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Andy<br />(formerly Clef)<br /></p><p><b>Roonas says:</b> Well Andy, you did get me thinking <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> ... so I decided to dissect your theory slowly point by point ... and I can only find fault in one interpretation, but then again, it's not really fault because you very well might be correct - we just have to RAFO.<br /><br />The point is this, I think you misread the intent of the prophecy with regards to Twice the day dawns of him spilling his blood.<br /><br />&quot;Twice dawns the day when his blood his shed<br />Once for morning, once for birth<br />Red on black, the Dragon's blood stains the rock of Shayol Ghul<br />In the Pit of Doom shall his blood free men from the Shadow&quot;<br /><br />I think this means that there will be a day where he sheds his blood twice, instead of the time period between bloodspillings being so far apart. The reason being that your example of him spilling his blood with the wound in his side has happened multiple times in my recollection. He has always been bleeding from it, it's a never-healing wound.  Therefore, I don't believe that can be the meaning of the first spilling so to speak - I think it is rather going to happen all in one day (or a time paradox of some sort of a repeating day, with the twice dawning having some sort of affect on the pattern ...). Yet, as I stated, whom really can know but the Great RJ himself!<br /><br />Who knows though, you might very well be correct with the 9 months till prediction because of Elayne's assumed condition <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" />.<br />All in all, I like the thought process you used, and it was a really well thought out Theory. Nice work my friend! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /> </p>


created: 2001-10-23 15:24:06
subject: The One Power Against the True Power
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<p>Basically, I envision the crux of Tarmon Gai'don as ultimately a battle against the One Power and the True Power. I don't think Shai'tan will have any loyalty to the Forsaken or others and thus their being able to channel the OP won't distort this battle. As the Dark One (and presumably for me, the True Power) tainted saidin, corrupted it, the One Power, being inherently pure, will be used to purify Creation by destroying the True Power and reducing Shai'tan to a powerless mass of evil consciousness residing eternally outside of the Pattern.<br /><br />Now for the fun part. Here's how I'd write the event-<br /><br />&quot;After straining so greatly, Nynaeve, Egwene, Elayne, Aviendha, Cadsuane,<br />Moraine, Flinn, Narishma, Logain... all those who had linked with him [Rand], channeling<br />as hard as possible, through the Choedan Kal, Callandor, sa'angreal and angreal enough<br />for all of them together to tear the world in half a thousand times, and more, were so tired,<br />so overwhelmed by the pure life that saidin and saidar gave them, that it was immeasurably<br />hard and amazing that they held on. The deathly, burning, hateful, evil flames, the True<br />Power flowing unbound from Shai'tan, trying to twist and corrode and annihilate<br />everything it touched, was only held back by the barrier of the One Power which all were<br />straining so hard to maintain against the sucking rage of the Shadow's might. It was<br />impossible. There was no way, not even if he were to collect all the One Power woven<br />across all of history, that Rand could defeat Shai'tan. Shai'tan could put the entire weight<br />of the True Power against the Pattern and all of Creation, against the Creator even. No<br />amount of channelling would contend with that forever.<br />&quot;Very weak now... the glow- no, the radiance- of saidin and saidar across those linked<br />outshone the sun so deeply and so greatly, it was like the Light itself. And in this moment,<br />Rand tried one thing. He wove all Five Powers together, taking the tear in the Pattern<br />where the Bore once had been in his mind. The pure, unwoven One Power beat against<br />the pure, unwoven True Power, locked in a struggle that he was only slightly able to<br />control, but in this Rand criss-crossed the One Power, straining with all of it that he could<br />contain to force one thing against the Pattern. Drawing that part of the Pattern, ripples<br />spread out across the Blight as they had when the Pattern had been torn 3000 years past,<br />in a wonderful Age of Legends, by the Sharom. Mierin... Lanfear... Cyndane... now what?<br />He could not remember. She had said with the strength like he was wielding now he could<br />oppose the Creator.<br />&quot;There was simply no way he could hold saidin under his control for any great time longer.<br />He was slipping, and it threatened him with destruction. Focusing his thoughts, he wove<br />saidin and saidar and the Age Lace straight through each other.<br />&quot;This one instant was all he needed. Impossibly, the male and female halves of the True<br />Source collided, becoming one, an impossible-yet-now-achieved task. It only worked for<br />that instant, and then Rand whispered for Nynaeve to break the linking. In the final<br />moment as she collapsed unconscious behind him, as they all did, he faced Shai'tan and let<br />the One Power kill him. From him, the Blight and Shayol Ghul were torn in half, the<br />Pattern unwinding across them, and from him, the infinity and entirety of the pure One<br />Power crashed into the Dark One. In the depths of that night over the dead prison of those<br />dead, cold mountains, it seemed as if the day dawned, and it dawned everywhere (twice<br />dawns the day).<br />&quot;The blacker-than-black darkness of the True Power flitted angrily, menacingly, against<br />the light sweeping it away. Where Rand had been the fabric of the world had been rent.<br />The One Power shifted across it and incinerated the Shadow, stripping Shai'tan of its<br />power.<br />&quot;The Power that drove the Wheel of Time drove that Wheel through Shai'tan itself,<br />crushing it and pounding it away, sealing it away, powerless and helpless. As the Pattern<br />of the Blight recoalesced, shot back and drawn together, the Dark One was forced out of<br />Creation, along with the One Power. A last brightness shone across everything for a<br />moment, and then it all disappeared from sight.<br />&quot;* * *&quot;<br />&quot;A wide field of bloody ashes that once had been Rand stretched across the<br />black stone that once had been Shayol Ghul. Elayne was crying, and so was Aviendha;<br />Min was far way, but Moraine was sure she was too. Nynaeve had silent tears flowing<br />down her eyes as she pushed her hands uselessly through the ash; there was no way to<br />Heal that, a death that was twice death over (well, twice to live and twice to die). Tarmon<br />Gai'don was finished, done with. The Dragon Reborn, whom she had found, had locked<br />the Dark One away again and destroyed the Shadow. The Dragon Reborn had saved the<br />world. Rand al'Thor had died. And Moraine knew she was crying, too.&quot;<br /><br />Ha ha ha. I do write sometimes.</p><p><b>StoneDogAiel says:</b> Nice writing. I think you may have a possibility of being right. Tarmon Gai'don will be a titanic struggle of Rand vs. the Dark One. The main question in my mind is wether the others will be involved in this or not. I think that Elayne, Egwene, Aviendha, Logain, Flinn, Narishma, and Moiraine will be fighting the Forsaken, while Rand links with Nynaeve and they use the Choedan Kal to hold off the Dark one until the forces of the shadow are defeated. Then everybody will link and take out the Dark One.<br /><br /><br /> </p>


created: 2001-10-23 16:41:38
subject: Twice Dawns the day of T'armon Gaidon
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<p>As a devoted reader of Wotmania I can't resist adding my two cents about the Last Battle.<br /><br />My theory is, that an eclipse will occur on the day of the last battle.  This is supported by at least two (relatively) clear passages in the saga. The first, and probably strongest support comes from the Karaetheon cycle itself.<br /><br />Twice dawns the day when his blood his shed<br />Once for morning, once for birth<br />Red on black, the Dragon's blood stains the rock of Shayol Ghul<br />In the Pit of Doom shall his blood free men from the Shadow<br /><br />I am also one of the supporters of Elayne giving birth to Rand's twins during the battle (just like their father).  But that's another theory.<br /><br />The next supporting passage comes from Chapter 2 of the Great Hunt, the Welcome of the Amyrlin Seat. One of the lines gives it away:<br />&quot;Against what do we guard?&quot; <br />&quot;The shadow at noon.&quot; <br />For Robert Jordan, this is the equivalent of smacking us over the head.<br /><br />Adding in Nicola's foretelling in LOC:<br />&quot;The lion sword, the dedicated spear, she who sees beyond. Three on the boat, and he who is dead yet lives.&quot; The great battle done, but the world not done with battle. The land divided by the return and the guardians balance out the servants. The future teeters on the edge of a blade. <br /><br />The Bore will be sealed but there will still be a significant amount of infighting after more important matters are resolved.  I wouldn't be surprised to see many nations regarding the 'Last Battle' as an elaborate Aes Sedai trick.<br /><br /><br /></p><p><b>StoneDogAiel says:</b> I think that you're stretching a bit with the eclipse, but you could be right. About the infighting after the Last Battle, I think that there will still be Darkfriends and Trollocs, not to mention the other kinds of Shadowspawn. The rest of the world will still have their differences as well.<br /><br /><br /> </p>


created: 2001-10-23 16:49:39
subject: Logain and the Taint
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<p>Just an idle speculation:<br /><br />1) Logain was healed of something subtly wrong when Nyneave fixed his gentling.  Some WOTists believe this to be related to the taint and that is why he is so interested in what she did...so that he can untaint the other male channelers.  I don't know if it was the taint, but maybe it was the madness of the taint?<br /><br />2) If Logain did figure out how to fix that part of a male channeler, either the taint itself or the madness caused by it, then wouldn't he be fixing the most horrible thing in all of Randland?  Therefore, wouldn't he be brought great glory?</p><p><b>StoneDogAiel says:</b> Great theory!!! I like the simple ones. I would say that you are completly right...except that Rand just cleansed saidin at the end of book nine. Sorry. That means that Logain might heal the past effects of the taint, but I think that there are only two people who could do that. Nynaeve (duh!) and Flinn. However, we don't know much about Logain's Talents, so we don't know. Nice Job!!<br /><br /><br /> </p>


created: 2001-10-23 17:31:58
subject: The Truth (Maybe) About Verin
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<p>First, this theory depends on the premise that Verin is in fact Corianin Nedeal, the Dreamer who lived 400 or so years ago (I think) and who is still alive today as Verin. I will explain this as I go along.<br /><br />I believe that Verin's odd and mysterious behaviour can be explained by the fact that she is pretending to play on both sides of the fence. 400 years ago, when she was still Corianin, she discovered that she could use the Oath Rod to escape her oaths. With her Dreaming ability, she knew what she had to do in order to guide the world to the future she had seen. She broke her oaths and disappeared, only to return as Verin sometime in the future.<br /><br />In that time, she became a Darkfriend and a Black Ajah, swearing oaths to the Dark One. She could then, of course, break those oaths and the DO wouldn't know, using the oath rod again. And now both sides trusted her.<br /><br />This explains far more than the fact that she can lie. In TGH, she seemed to know which five would ride forth. Perhaps she Dreamed it. And earlier in that book, she rode quickly to reach Rand's group, probably because she saw some danger to him in her Dreams, which would have been Lanfear.<br /><br />Remember when Egwene was going to Verin's study in TDR, and saw a flash of white ahead. It was never explained who that was. But Lanfear was in the Tower then, so it must have been her. She went to Verin's study and told Verin to give Egwene the twisted ring ter'angreal (remember, Lanfear believes Verin to be a faithful Black Ajah). Lanfear wanted Egwene to figure out that they were supposed to go to Tear (remember Silvie?) and she used Verin to help. Also, remember Verin did not include all the info she could have about the 13 Black Ajah who fled? Lanfear probably made her do this, too. And Verin did it, because she knew from her Dreams how things would turn out. She is a much more experienced Dreamer than even the Aiel Wise Ones, and so could probably interpret her Dreams more accurately.<br /><br />Also, Verin was probably the one who told Alanna to watch over the girls by doing penance in the kitchens. Alanna has always seemed to defer to Verin for some reason. And she could have been the one who told the Black Ajah what all the ter'angreal they stole did, since she would have been the last one to study them all. Right?<br /><br />Now, in TSR, Verin was convieniently gone from the Tower when Elaida took over. It is possible that she knew what was going to happen . . . from her Dreams. She also knew something about Perrin's hammer, and about his future with Faile. Either she Dreamed something about him, or she was watching Perrin's dreams. Either way points to her being Corianan. And when she first met Perrin again in the Two Rivers, she did not ask him what was happening with Rand, even though that should have been her greatest concern. She probably already knew about Tear through her Dreams.<br /><br />By playing both sides, Verin is trying to guide the world toward the future she Dreamed, and she is doing it alone. She never is surprised by anything, and always seems to know what will happen before it happens. All this seems to point to her being Corianin, the lost Dreamer. It all makes sense . . . at least to me. Tell me what you think!</p><p><b>Roonas says:</b> I think this theory is really interesting, if not in fact a bit far fetched.  Yet, because I can see merit in the possibility of it, I will leave it to your peers to decide whether or not they can believe this theory. I personally don't think it all matches up so easily, and I think it would be one heck of a revelation for Jordan to suddenly spring all of this out about Verin in one fell swoop ... but as with all things RAFO, anything certainly is possible! Very interesting!<br /><br /><br /> </p>


created: 2001-10-24 12:32:56
subject: And The Sky Went Dark . . .
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<p>With all the influx of &quot;twice dawns the day&quot; theories lately, I thought I should add my opinion. Remember when Rand saw all the way back through the past in Rhuidean, and saw the bore being opened for the first time 3000 or so years ago? When the bore was opened, a black flash of some sort covered the sky for a moment, and everything went dark for that same moment. This is a much simpler and less-coincidental solution than an eclipse happening: the &quot;shadow at noon&quot; means that the bore is re-opened during the day, and for a moment, when the Dark One gets free, the sky goes dark. Then the moment will pass, the day will &quot;dawn&quot; again, and the true Last Battle will begin between Rand and the DO.<br /><br />Makes sense to me. How about you?</p><p><b>Roonas says:</b> Interesting ... so if I read this right, as you supposing that when the Last Battle happens, the Dark One might be freed, and that could possibly cause the &quot;darkness&quot; of which you spoke. Then the ensuing rush of daylight returning to the world could mean the Daw dawning twice ... Interesting! I like it ... <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />!<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /> </p>


created: 2001-10-24 12:40:31
subject: Randland vs Earth
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<p>I have been trying to find (or make) a map of the Aiel Waste.<br />While doing this I spent lots of time studying the map and here is what I found (or speculated anyway).<br />This is how the countries from (for lack of a better term) Randland equal up with those from Earth.<br /><br />Tear: Rome<br />Mayene: Sicily<br />Illian: Greece<br />Andor: England<br />Carhein: France<br />Shara: China (or any other historically isolationistic society <br />Sheinar: Turkey<br />Other Borderlands: Saudi Arabia<br /><br />Reasoning: <br />Tear is Rome for 2 main reasons. <br />1.	The high lords could be the equal of non-imperial Rome's senate (Calando would explain the fact that both the high lords and the senate &quot;hold state&quot; instead of rule.<br />2.	Mayene is Sicily also falls under this one. Sicily was a small Phoenician colony that was bullied and eventually destroyed by Rome. See the pattern?<br /> <br />Illian is Greece for 3 main reasons<br />1.	Their ex-king's name was Mattin (martin?) Steppanos, which for all you non-Greeks is a very Greek name (Stepanos not Mattin)<br />2.	The animosity with Tear (Rome). In the classical period there was great expansion into each other and then decline. This spurred hatred between the two. (Alexander the Great and The Roman Empire)<br />3.	This may just be happenstance but if you take a map of Earth Italy and Greece are close but Greece is to the right. In Randland they are close but Illian is to the right.<br /><br />Andor: also 3 reasons<br />1.	Andor is a basic medieval serf to king hierarchical culture. So was England. <br />2.	They have close trade agreements with Carhein (France) and even have some close ties within the royal families. <br />3.	While I can&#8217;t fully explain the totally matriarchal ruler ship of Andor (cruel RJ style humour) I think it is focused on the long line of &#8216;noble&#8217; queens from England (the Elizabeth&#8217;s; the Victoria&#8217;s and so forth)<br /><br />Carhein: ?France? (Remember point 2 from above) <br />1.	Also a King/Queen and nobles down to serfs style society &#8211; but with some more romantic touches.<br />2.	Called &#8220;sneaky&#8221; and &#8220;foolish&#8221; by their close neighbours the Andorans. (as were the French by the &#8220;Rougher&#8221; English)<br />3.	They (French and Carheinin) are more ostentatious and yet romantic than the Andorans  <br />4.	Point 2 from Andor&#8230;<br /><br />Shara: China (mainly because of its isolationistic properties)<br />1.	From what we have heard they trade in silk and rare spices &#8211; this points to an oriental culture.<br />2.	The isolationism was my first clue here. China has a huge history of not letting in foreigners because trade worked fine.<br />3.	The Great Wall of China &#8211; The Great Walled Cities of Shara. The Seafolk say they have huge, walled cities and closed off ports for trading with &#8220;outsiders&#8221;<br /><br />Sheinar: Turkey (the reason it stands out is the top-knots)<br />1.	The topknots are the one and only reason I have for differentiating. There is a fairly small religion in the Asia-minor and Mid-east area call Siekh. They are a sort of Muslim offshoot mixed with some ancient Hinduism. They wear their turbans up in topknots on their heads.<br /><br />Other Borderlands: Saudi Arabian to Egyptian style culture<br />2.	 I have dubbed them Arab warriors for the simple reason that they (Arab nomadic warriors) follow an honour code similar to the sheath-the-sword one of the border landers.<br />3.	The leather marriage plait from Malkier speaks strongly of a Middle Eastern Desert culture<br /><br />Tarabon and Arad Doman: I honestly have no clue and while I think they have to be linked in our world as well as Randland I would like feedback.<br /><br />By : Saidin<br /><br /></p><p><b>Roonas says:</b> Very cool thought process here. The only points I can add to it are from the standpoint of seeing Seanchan as &quot;the Americas&quot; ... think of it like this, the Americas were colonized by Europe, and in some ways a parallel can be drawn to the power (and or sleeping power) that is held in the North American Continent.  I could go on, but the point can be made in your own heads just as well ... <br /><br />I liked this possible explanation alot - (even if you did use the incorrect term of &quot;Randland&quot; YUCK!!! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" />) ... <br /><br />Good work!<br /><br /><br /><br /> </p>


created: 2001-10-25 01:46:55
subject: Relationships to Mythology
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<p>I've been reading up a little on some different forms of mythology and religion, and I think I may have found a connection between the one power and where it came from. This is a little long but hopefully it will clear a few things up.<br /><br />Sejd, the specific Germanic form of shamanism, was mainly practiced by women, called v&#246;lvor or valar. There is a name similarity between sejd and saidin/saidar, and the connection grows stronger as sejd could be practiced by both men and women, although it was deemed unmanly and degrading for men. Of course, other than the name and a few similarities there is not much else. Fire, Earth, Air, Water, and Spirit were not a part of sejd. But still, this is the best connection I've seen. <br /><br /><b>Bayle Domon and Egeanin as Njord and Skade</b><br /><br />This is arguably the most amusing parallel I have found. Skade was the daughter of the giant Tjatse, who was killed by the Aesir. She lived in Trymheim in the far northern fields, and was a renowned hunter, skier and warrior, and a master with the bow. When reached by the news of her father's death at the hand of the Aesir, she went to Asgard to avenge him.  The Aesir offered reconciliation and compensation for this. Skade then demanded one of the unmarried Aesir for a husband, and that the Aesir must make her laugh, which she hasn't done since her father's death. The Aesir accept, but on one condition: she may only see the feet when she chooses her husband. Skade then chose a pair of exceedingly well-formed and clean feet, with the comment that nothing on Balder can look bad, but instead they belonged to Njord. His beard had streaks of grey, and he was large in stature with a protruding stomach. He was the god of the sailors and merchants, and the riches trading brought. Egeanin is like Skade a female warrior, clad in armor and sword. She also gives up her mission when new options arise, and she gets connected with an older merchant and sailor, of great stature, namely Bayle Domon.<br /><br />Now for the funny part: How did the Aesir make Skade laugh? This is quite humorous, but some may find it offensive, or something.<br /><br />When it came time to make Skade laugh. Loki undressed, fetched the goat Heidrun and tied its beard around his testicles. They both pulled on the other, and both bleated and screamed clamorously. In the end, Loki cut the goats beard and let himself fall backward into Skade's lap, and then the stern woman laughed. <br /><br />Before I quit, I just want to point out one more similarity. The Lord Odin had two ravens, Hugin and Munin (aka Thought &amp; Memory). He would send these two ravens out every morning to gather the news of the world and bring it back to him. In Westland,I guess it's now called, ravens are used to spy, then they must report what they had seen back to the DO, or a Myrddraal, or something else. This is just a little factual info.</p><p><b>Bad Ash says:</b> Just more proof of RJ's diversity and his knowledge of religions and mythology.  Thanks. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /> </p>


created: 2001-10-25 14:44:45
subject: Twice dawns the day, yet AGAIN.
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<p>Well! Isn't this just the hot topic!? Well, as always, GG's got the dope for y'all. <br /><br />OK, we all know that in a way Rand represents Jesus Christ. Hands, wound in side, higher being made flesh (Rand to a lesser extent. How else do you explain him doing things that he would never know how to do before LTT was in his head?). Now, look at Revelation; the end of the world fortold in the Bible. Christ will come again (described as a lamb) and be killed to show his love for us all and God once again. Then the angel comes down and CHAINS the devil again, eventually to kill him. <br /><br />Rand WILL die at TG. That much is certian, and PLEASE stop with this &quot;Galad is his blood, too. So are the Aiel.&quot;, cause Galad is his half brother with only half of his blood, and Rand is of Aiel blood and not the other way around. That is like saying that my Grandfather is of my blood. Uh-uh. I am of his blood, capice?<br /><br />Now since RJ so obviously took Jesus as a building block for his saviour, why is it so outlandish that he die in the same way? (I'm building to something here, don't worry) That is, sacrifice himself for the sake of the world and through the will and power to take his own life, thwart the DO? Maybe he has to live for the DO to win. Why else would he leave Rand alive and keep offering him Nae'Blis? So, Rand will sacrifice himself, even though he may have the power to do otherwise.<br /><br />Now, geting back to Jesus. In the Bible, what happens when Jesus died on the cross? The World went dark when he died, even though it was mid-afternoon. There were storms and the sky was black. Now, the reason for this in WoT is not to be known right now, or else someone would have reasoned it out already. I do like the idea of the darkness being the DO breaking free, though. Cool idea, that one. Or mabye that will be the Creator coming and kicking the DO's arse! I know that he said that he wouldn't interfere, but that could just mean until Rand has done his job (Dying). We'll find out eventually, though.  <br /><br />So, there you have it. For the record, though, i only put this together after reading the other posts here. In fact, i've always felt that he will create another Dragonmount when he dies. No proof have I, but it is a neat idea. What'cha think?</p><p><b>Raserei says:</b> Well, I always thought it would be a nice symmetry if Rand were to die on the slopes of Dragonmount.  The seires started there, it'd be kinda cool to end it there too.<br /><br />But the way I saw Twice Dawns is that Rand is the second dawn, the second coming.  LTT was the Lord of the Morning, the first dawn, and Rand is He who comes with the Dawn, the second Dawn.<br /><br />But I don't think that works with the prophecy at hand.<br /><br />Nice theory <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /> </p>


created: 2001-10-26 19:38:32
subject: But what will actually happen DURING the battle?
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<p>All the speculation about who's going to win and what happens after and who will die is well and good, but I think we should start diverting our attentions to what will actually happen during the last battle.  I am of the camp that it has to be more than just a big old battle with a lot of people channelling at each other and using newly-invented guns.  Jordan has said that he knew what would happen at the last battle since before he started writing.  We also see, throughout the books, events happening that would later pass into OUR mythology (sword in the stone, Arthur Hawking, Caemlyn, etc.).  Now, if this battle is going to be something big, and the light willing, it will be, Jordan would want it to resonate with the mythology of the present.  And not some obscure Norse thing, a mythology present in almost all the cultures of the world.  An example is the Great Flood - A myth held by almost every religion (not just Judaism, Christianity, Islam - also Hinduism, Buddhism, Shinto...).<br /><br />I say this to get the ball rolling - anyone else have thoughts as to what might actually happen in the battle?</p><p><b>Raserei says:</b> Well, then you woulod be saying Randland is Earth, no?<br /><br /><br /> </p>


created: 2001-10-26 19:42:08
subject: Give up half the light of the world...
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<p>I'm pretty new to the wot community but I really do enjoy all the novels. In my endless endeavoring to procrastinate, I came upon this site and have spent many fruitful hours in the different links, not the least of which is the theory post. In particular I've been reading the postings about Mat(one of my favorites) and the theories of how and why he looses his left eye, if at all. I was surprised to see however that no one had the same thought that just struck me.<br /><br />In Egwene's dreams, we can assume that Mat is going to loose one of his eyes. She also dreamed that Rand would loose a hand and his sight to live as a beggar (I'm sorry I haven't cited these, but like I said, I'm new and have only read through the books once).<br /><br />In many of the theories I have read, many of you think that Rand will be captured and tortured. I agree with this thought. Other theories think that Mat will loose his eye as payment to Eelfinn in an attempt to save Moraine or some other escapade dealing with &quot;All those women&quot; that get Mat into  trouble. This I do not fully agree with. <br /><br />My thought does not deal with Mat saving Aes Sedai, however. It deals with Mat, &quot;Giving up half the light of the world to save it.&quot;<br /><br />To weave the one power, there are some criteria that must be met. One of which is that the channeler must be able to see the weaves he or she is controlling. If Rand is captured in one of the subsequent books, tortured, and blinded, he will not be able to channel, let alone &quot;save the world&quot; at TG. Therefore, Mat, being the savior character that he is, must &quot;give up half the light of the world&quot;, his eye, to allow Rand to see again, to channel again, to Save the World. I don't know if this will be payment to the Eelfinn or be met through some type of new Nynaeve healing process, but knowing Robert Jordan it will probably be much more involed than I can think of. Anyway, I hope my guess into the future events of the books helps spark some thought out there. Later</p><p><b>Raserei says:</b> I suppose the next claim you'll make is that Mat will invent gun powder too.<br /><br />J/k<br /><br />But the real question is, how would Mat do this?<br /><br /><br /> </p>


created: 2001-10-27 02:42:42
subject: The White Tower Bends Knee To The..........
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<p>&quot;The unstained Tower breaks and bends knee to the forgotten sign&quot;<br /><br />The Tower has broken and will soon be mended but it has not sworn fealty to anybody.<br /><br />This will not happen for a while due to Elaida's Foretelling so picture this at the end of Book 11 or 12 -<br /><br />Rand has control of the East and the 9 moons in the West has been bound to serve Rand. The Black Tower has been rent and Taim &amp; Co kicked out, with Logain now the M'Hael. The White Tower has cast out the scorned Black Ajah and is stronger than ever. An angry Dark One now unleashes the Trolloc Hordes on the Borderlanders and Mat rallies the forces of the Light in Illian, the Last Battle has now begun.<br /><br />Now, imagine you are Demandred leading a force of millions of Trollocs what would be your next target? What is a strategic target that needs to be destroyed and what is the nearest destination from the Borderlands? The White Tower.<br /><br />The White Tower has never been invaded. In the Trolloc Wars the Dreadlords came close but were defeated. But what is different now? Gateways.<br /><br />Should 50 or so Dreadlords open Gateways inside the Tower and send 100,000 Trollocs pouring through them, the casualties will be high on both sides. I don't care how well the Aes Sedai can channel, in the corridoors of the White Tower, most likely the attack will be at night, the Aes Sedai will take heavy losses. It is only on an open battle field with an army at their side, and the Horn of Valere, will they be able to defeat such numbers.<br /><br />The Aes Sedai will be forced to retreat, where will they go? Which sign will they bend the knee to? Rand of course. And who will he join the Aes Sedai to? The Black Tower, who just happen to wear Rand's banner as their emblem.<br /><br />Who controls the Black Tower? Logain who is about to become the 2nd most powerful man in the world - &quot;power and glory that few men have ever dreamed of&quot; that Min described in TFoH. <br /><br />Aes Sedai dignity and RJ's writing will mean that they will whine and sniff, but as per Rand's instructions the Aes Sedai will be under the authority of the new Tamyrlin...Logain.<br /><br /></p><p><b>Bad Ash says:</b> Well, it <i>could</i> happen.  But you have a lot of &quot;ifs&quot; in your theory.  You place this all after Rand has essentially tied up every other loose ends in the Westlands, i.e. the Seanchan serve him, Taim is out of power, etc.  Who's to say everything will fall into place so concisely?  Since when does Jordan make sure all other plot threads are tied before he starts a new one?  I thought I had the ending figured out after tFoH, and look how that turned out.<br /><br />As I said, I have no way to disprove your theory.  I just don't find it likely.<br /><br /><br /> </p>


created: 2001-10-27 03:38:57
subject: Will Rand Die during the Last Battle?
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<p>There is much speculation as to whether Rand will die, or perhaps appear to die, during the Last Battle.  Much of this has to do with the prophecy that the Dragon's blood would stain the rocks of Shayol Ghul, Nicola's Foretelling of the three women around the boat, and Min's Viewing of Rand as a beggar.  No matter how it happens, I think that the good folk of the Westlands will believe Rand had died, and somehow will return.  Whether Rand will actually die or not remains to be seen, and is irrelavent to my theory.  The point is, he will appear to be dead.<br /><br />Why?  A theory recently posted by An Aged Outlander makes an excellent point.  In RJ's cyclical world, not only does history, mythology and religion of our day manifest itself in the Third Age (Mosk and Merc, anyone), but history of the Third Age is displayed in myth and legend of ours (Sword in the Stone, most notably).  In this series, we live in the world of WoT and don't know it.  <br /><br />So why does Rand have to die?  Note the events leading up to the arrival of the Dragon: a savior, prophesied for millenia to arise, chosen as the Creator's champion, is born in a peasant village of simple means as forces of evil plot his demise, learns of his destiny upon his transition to manhood, elicits the undying allegiance of millions, and will ultimately sacrifice himself for mankind's benefit.  Whom does this sound like to you?<br /><br /><i>&quot;For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.&quot;</i><br /><br />I don't believe that RJ is trying make Rand reminiscient of Jesus as much as he is, in his world of circular time, making Jesus reminiscient of Rand!  Rand saved the world in the Third Age, and here in the Seventh Age we place the forgotten lore of that time in the familiar setting of Palestine 2000 years ago.  In order to complete that cycle, and explain why 1.5 billion people today put their faith in Jesus when in our world, which <i>is</i> the world of WoT, the real Savior is Rand, Rand must appear to have died and been raised up.<br /><br />I'm not trying to spark a religious debate here, or lessen the value of sacrifice of Christ to those that believe that their salvation stems from it.  I'm trying to point out the subtleties of our time and those of Robert Jordan's rich and wonderful world that tie those two worlds together so tightly, one can almost truly believe we live in the Seventh Age.</p><p><b>Raserei says:</b> Well, for one, great theory.  I didn't have to do any work. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />But, I don't agree.  <br /><br />I mean, if you were a writer, how could you not take instances from present or recent times and weave them into your story (Mosk and Merc for example).<br /><br />But I think the whole Rand/Christ issue is just an instance of the above.  A plot device to make Rand and his gathering of the countries more credible.  I just don't see people scrambling to help Rand because he is just the Dragon Reborn.<br /><br />'Course, Jesus didn't have a big following either.  He had his 12 Disciples....plus himself.  Hmm...13. Anyone see a connection.<br /><br />I just might yet be swayed...<br /><br />Oh, and bonus points for using Westland. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /> </p>


created: 2001-10-27 03:52:28
subject: In Defence of Berelain
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<p>The 'sniffing' women of Westlands (Egwene &amp; Co) believe Berelain is a 'lightskirt'. But she isn't. Berelain only uses her sexualty as a political weapon.<br /><br />The first time we see Berelain she makes eyes at Rhuarc in TDR, then tries to bed Rand in TSR. These are the men who are in control of the Stone, which means they influence the Tairens and virtually hold her captive. She only uses her 'looks' as a political tool which is proved in WH when she tell Perrin she has only slept with two men, both for political reasons.<br /><br />In TSR she takes a fancy to Perrin - &quot;such striking eyes&quot; - who is about to leave for the Two Rivers and therefore has no current political influence. It is also unknown whether she knows he is <i>ta'veren</i>.<br /><br />It is only when Faile attacks her does Berelain swear and 'Ogiers Oath' to win him in anger.<br /><br />In LoC Egwene is astonished that the Wise Ones like her and Amys kisses Berelain like a 'daughter'. Egwene can only see a 'lightskirt' and is yet to learn how she works politically. The Wise Ones do see a strong woman and like her. <br /><br />Berelain I also believe has now fallen in love with Perrin - &quot;you will be pleasure in more ways than one&quot;<br /><br />Min has seen that she will fall in love with a man in white who will snub her. There is nothing to say that Min saw the exact moment she fell in love. Min may have seen the &quot;shameful scene&quot;, as she call it, where Berelain is already in love with the man.<br /><br />To prove it there is the following:<br /><br />WH: Berelain gaze on his (Perrins) back was like stroking fingers. This is exactly the same as when Faile saw Perrin at the Blacksmiths' in TDR.<br /><br />WH: Berelain sits in the dark, watching an injured Perrin. The same as Faile in the Two Rivers in TSR.<br /><br />WH: Perrin calls Berelain's attentions 'a childish game'. Annoura calls him a 'large fool'<br /><br />WH: Berelain stumbles on the word &quot;she (Annoura) thought you might die&quot;<br /><br />WH Writers Hint: Leaving the Prophet &quot;Perrin watches the Hawk and thinks of his wife Faile&quot;. <br /><br />I think WH has begun to reveal that Berelain is going to play a major part in Perrin's storyline and is more than a 'lightskirt'. Plus being a Paendrag may help Manetheran with Tuon and the Seanchan neighbours.</p><p><b>Raserei says:</b> It has been stated that Berelain uses her looks for political power.<br /><br />But otherwise, great theory.  I think Perrin might end up with Berelain after all, reading this.<br /><br /><br /> </p>


created: 2001-10-29 06:12:00
subject: Elaida as a tragic figure, and the nature of prophecy.
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<p><b>Elaida as MacBeth and The nature of prophecy</b><br /><br />   I've noticed a lot of similarities to fictional and mythological characters that RJ has borrowed from religions and other storys. Among others he's borrowed from Shakespear with his Charcter of Elaida do Avrinhy a Roihan (there's still a reward of 5000 Tar Valon marks for the man that can say her name 5 times fast without error).<br /><br />   Just as Rand is both King Arthur and Jesus Christ allegories, Just as Egwene is like Guinivere, and Mat is Odin and so on our favorite Red Ajah hottie is a metaphorical allegorical representation. Elaida isof course MacBeth. She has wrongly usurped a throne from someone because of her own pride and lust for power. She's now starting to get over confident because of a prophecy that she's yet to look at objectively. She's about to start a war that will kill many because of her pride. She will soon be deposed with the former rulers proper sucessor taking her place. Ultimately she is a tragic figure in the classical sense. She will deserve her failure because of her own intrinsic flaws.<br /><br />   Considering all of this I suppose that one might say that Alviranin Freidhen is Elaidas Lady MacBeth. Nothing romantic mind you. Just that Alviranin is the one who has given Elaida really messed up advice and has some blood on her hands (the Accepted or sister that had guarded the great hold that Alviarnin covered up when Fain killed her). If the similarities were to hold then I do believe that Alviranin will commit suicide. Not out of guilt or remorse, of course. Just to avoid being captured and fingered as the leader of the Black Ajah.<br /><br />   Now of course we have the weird sisters. That's Elaida. One could argue about the various character that have prophecies that will possibly relate to how it all ends. Min and Nicola come to mind (I think Nicola was the one that had the foretelling about 3 in a boat). However the only prophecy that has made Elaida arogant and cocky is her own. The one mentioning the Dragon facing the Amyrlins anger may very well be referring to Egwene. That's not a possibly that Elaida could consider of course.<br /><br />   The foretelling is something that is getting me puzzled though. This is not something coming from a wicked source like the traditional weird sisters. This is a gift from the pattern as far as can be told. It certainly doesn't just apply to darkness or light. Afterall the dark friends have their own prophecies that are proving true like the one about Isam and Luc. So why is this gift being molded to manipulate Elaida into her own downfall.<br /><br />   Recall that one of her earliest if not the very first foretelling was that the royal line of Andor would be key to the last battle. This could mean Rand as the Dragon, Elayne as one of the 3 in the boat, or her daughters or Aviendhas being born at SG or a myriad of other things. Elaida interpreted the prophecy to mean the next sucessor after Tigraine disappeared. So she attached her self to House Trakand very early on.<br /><br />   Ms. Roihan has often thought that if she hadn't done so that she could have made Amyrlin seat sooner. Perhaps she's right. With her charisma and leadership qualities she could have gone far. That prophecy came at the right time to make sure that Siuan Sanche had no problem becoming the Flame of Tar Valon. Then another comes that might make Elaida arogant enough to get herself deposed.<br /><br />   I personally don't think that prophecy is meant to be good or evil. No matter what form it takes. I think it serves the pattern of fate that now runs independent to the creator since he won't touch it again. It has molded both good and evil characters to it's way without regard for their morals. Kind of like a median between Ta'veren and Shadowspawn. That's why we don't know of any evil Taveren. They have shadow and the light doesn't. You could say that Wolves and Ogier count as light balances, but they are natural sentient races that weren't engineered. So it's nature versus abominations and shifting of fate versus chaos. In the middle lies preordained events.<br /><br />   I don't necessarily think that the presence of prophecy negates free will. If the pattern is a overview of what's going to happen then the prophecies aren't going to change that. Think of time as a ring. The patteren is that ring. If you etch something in the ring about it like saying that it's 24 karat then you haven't changed the ring. It was 24k before and is still 24k. Example if Min had not told Rand or anyone else that Colavere was fated to die that would not have saved her life. Colavere would have still tried to usurp the Caiheinin throne, Rand would have still chosen to revoke her status as a noble woman, and she would have still hung herself. The viewing Min had changed nothing.<br /><br />   The fact that one can look at the pattern from outside and see it all and the consequences of choices not yet made doesn't negate free will. When the choosers choose, at that moment in time they are still free to choose what they want to. Like if you video tape your self drawing from a deck of cards. If you watch the tape again and know that you'll end up choosing the Ace of Spades then the 9 of hearts and the 4 of diamonds. So we still have free will just depends on your perspective.<br /><br />   However the Prophecies might alter the way our choices are made. If Elaida didn't have the foretelling she might have found another reason to do something that would have taken her away from the tower. She still would have tried to usurp Siuan, and would still be too cocky to admit that she might loose to Egwene. These factors even more so than the prophceies make her like MacBeth. She had power lust in her heart, has become a form of royalty, and will be her own undoing. That is the definition of a tragic character.<br /></p><p><b>Moridin_2000 says:</b> I like that idea. Elaida as MacBeth and Alviarin as Lady MacBeth whispering in her ear and driving her to do things that she doesn't want to. The blood on her hands, usurping the throne, her status among the Reds...the more I think on it, the more it seems to make sense.<br /><br />The comments on the nature of prophecy are pretty interesting too. Nice theory!<br /><br /><br /> </p>


created: 2001-10-29 15:17:57
subject: Fenris Theory
body:
<p>This is maybe too far a stretch, but let's take a look at it anyway.<br /><br />In Norse Mythology, there is the legend of the Fenris wolf who terrorized Asgard for a time untiil the Gods made a chain strong enough to bind him. They tried to bind him twice, but the chain wasn't strong enough and he bit right through it. Then, finally, a chain that was strong enough was made and Fenris agreed to let them put it on him on two conditions: 1-That they release him afterwards and 2-That Tyr put his hand in the wolf's mouth to ensure the gods didn't go back on what they said. Of course, they didn't let him go afterwards and Tyr lost his hand.<br /><br />Now, the symbolism in the Wheel of Time seems to parallel this story, on some levels. There are Perrin's wolves and Mat's Band of the Hand. Tyr, I think, is really Rand; Tyr is a god of Justice and Tyr's appearance seems to be similar to the Fisher figure that Moridin plays with. <br /><br />Now, this scenario could play out like this: Perrin is turned to the dark one--possibly through 13 sisters linked or through his own quest for glory, spurred on by Faile, whose relationship with Perrin seems to cast a distinctly Lanfear-esque light on Faile, at times. The wolves, for some reason, follow Perrin against Mat's Band and the Band are sacrificed because of it.<br /><br />I don't think this will happen, of course. Even if Perrin were turned to the dark side...shadow, sorry, turned to the shadow, the wolves would not be. They hate the Dark One and his minions so it's kind of hard to see that coming out.<br /><br />I think the scenario might play out like this, sans Perrin and his wolves:<br /><br />Rand needs an escort into the Blight in order to make it to Shayol Ghul. Everyone knows it will be suicide. Rand asks or Mat and his men volunteer for the duty, and the Band of the Hand are sacrificed so the Dragon can make it to Shayol Ghul. No wolves, but I think it fits in terms of Rand being made to sacrifice a hand in order to save the world. <br /><br />That's what I think. If someone smarter than me wants to look it up, I'm pretty sure Tyr plays a big part in Ragnarok, which is one of the sources for Jordan's Tarmon Gaidon.</p><p><b>Bad Ash says:</b> You know, I'm all for pointing out the parallels between mythology and WoT.  But sometimes I think the line needs to be drawn.  I don't think RJ will mimic a myth exactly in this series.  He draws so many parallels from so many different stories and legends it would be impossible!  So, I thank you for your submission, but as you set in the outset, I think this is a bit of a stretch also.<br /><br /><br /> </p>


created: 2001-10-30 00:20:47
subject: Ogier or Wolf Brothers????
body:
<p>The Ogier are half animals evolved from the wolves in the Pre-Legends era.  They were the wolf-brothers who eventually turned crazy.  As the Aiel aviod Tinkers, the wolves also avoid their long lost past.  Also in a reverse of the Aiel, the Ogier went to nonviolent ways. Look for Perrin to unite the two and bring them to the last battle. Besides isn't Faile more beast then human?</p><p><b>Raserei says:</b> Um...no.  To everything.<br /><br /><br /> </p>


created: 2001-10-30 00:27:03
subject: Creator vs. the Dark One
body:
<p>Well, I waas just reading the old theories on the nature of the DO, and I have to say that most people who are writing them are just ignoring the facts and RJ trends to see what they want to see, much in the same manner as those who believe that the blood of the Dragon on the... let's not get into that <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Anyway, what these peeps were saying was that the DO was once human, and/or he does not have the same amount of strength as the Creator. Uhhhhhhh, no. <br /><br />Sorry, but no. <br /><br />Look at the series and all of the balancing scales that RJ has going on. He has CONTINUALLY stated that WoT is a world based on balance. Just look at the examples of the Aes Sedai symbol; equal, yet opposite. <br />So if this is true, why in the bloody heck would the DO be weaker than the Creator? <br /><br />Sure, it is easy to get the wrong impression that the DO is not so powerful since he hasn't fried the world up yet, but, uh, the Creator has not even lifted a finger this time around, so I think that the DO is doing pretty good so far.<br /><br />Now since I know that somebody on the Blackboard is going to say: &quot;Well if he was so powerful, why was LTT able to defeat him?&quot; Well, the DO was not completley free yet, was he? In fact, I'm willing to bet that what the DO had in the War of the Shadow was equivalent to having a pinky finger free, and he still had enough power to taint our boys.<br /><br />The DO is not one to mess around. In fact, my belief was always that the Creator did not take a part in the affairs of the world because he WAS the DO's prison. Think about it, if they are evenly matched, which RJ seems to tell us repeatedly, how could the Creator possibly just imprison the DO? Well, he would have to devote all of his strength to holding him still.<br /><br />Why is the DO getting free now, and why is the Creator not taking part in this melee? Well, the answer is that he is in this thing. When the DO was starting to wriggle through the prison in this age, the Creator gained the power back that was previously going to holding the DO back and used it to create the ta'varen, as well as our assorted friends such as Nynaeve who is hugely powerful. Also, since the DO was able to turn some of the most powerful AS in the AOL, why has he not had much luck with this batch of channelers, being Rand, Nynaeve, Egwene, etc.? Mabye because the Creator has ensured their loyalty in the threads of the pattern. Otherwise, Rand would have turned long ago, or at least one of our other super &quot;Lightfriends&quot; (heh) would have.<br /><br />So, to sum it all up, the DO was never human (But the theory on Fain as the new DO was so awesome!!!! Darn, mabye next series...<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" />, and he is no more powerful or weak than the Creator. Don't forget, the DO is the balance to the Creator, not any kind of fallen angel.<br /><br /></p><p><b>Raserei says:</b> YOu had me till you said Lightfriends.<br /><br /><br /> </p>


created: 2001-10-30 01:00:02
subject: Where in the world is Carmen San, oops!, Demandred?
body:
<p>I submitted this theory awhile back and never saw it posted. So here I try again!<br /><br />Ok, I know that a lot of you have probably already heard this one, but it just hit me last night (I guess I AM kind of slow!). Anyway, I read a theory that one paragraph in WH disproved the Taim = Demandred. So I re-read the book just to find it, and didn't. Finally, last night I was sitting around drinking a beer when SHAZAM! There it was! Demandred did NOT recognize one of the Asha'man that Taim had created (Flinn, I believe--the old dude). So how the heck could Taim be Demandred? Obviously RJ must be laughing his ass off every time he sees our Taim = Demandred FAQ! And with so much proof! <br /><br />So who the heck is Demandred? In a chat, RJ did say that he had placed a POWERFUL enemy deep into our heroes midst, so I am assuming that he means Demandred because he's the only Forsaken whose whereabouts are unknown to us (of course, Semi is Anath, so...). So I started running down our list of allies and the only dude with a hooked nose and is also Saldaen, doesn't smile much, blah, blah, blah happened to be Bashere! <br /><br />Think about it. They were both introduced at roughly the same time (story time, anyway), thus coinciding with the death of Asmodean (important because Asmo could have given Demandred away). Bashere claims to be following Taim into Caemlyn, yet automatically swears fealty to the Dragon Reborn without so much as a shiver (everyone else had feared and doubted him being the Dragon at first). He then promises to send messages to Tenobia so that all of Saldaea can back the Dragon, yet later we see the four borderland nations pledging to go after both the Dragon AND Bashere. Obviously no messages were sent. Why Rand would not ask about it further is also crazy (what nations better to back you than the ones pledged to fighting the Blight?) <br /><br />But why does Bashere doubt Taim's identity at first? Who knows? Until we know exactly who Taim is, it is kind of hard to figure this one out. We know that Semirhage can ferret out info. From anyone. Therefore, maybe she takes all the info from Bashere, gives it to Demandred, and thus set up the Bashere disguise. However, he hadn't really seen or done all of the things that Bashere did, only read about them. So when Taim shows up, he initially doubts him. After Taim gives a little synopsis of one of their battles (which Demandred would know about due to the Bashere memory implants!), Demashere responds in such a way that would convince Rand he really was Bashere. <br /><br />By the way, we know that Demandred is a person who is in Caemlyn and whom Caemlynites would NOT bat an eye at because in one of the books, one of his gateways goes straight into the Royal Palace and he simply walks right through without weaving a disguise. Which of Rand's allies are in Caemlyn? Only Taim and Bashere, but we know that Demandred can't be Taim (reasons above!) so you do the math!<br /><br />Of course, this puts Faile into question as well. I mean, the daughter of the General Marshal, cousin to a queen, yet married to a blacksmith? And I know that Perrin is a badass wolf brother, but it seems highly suspect that she happens to fall on them while hunting for the horn a zillion leagues from home. Of course, Perrin's ta'vereness can explain that away. To counter, Min's viewings seem to paint Faile as good, and we know that min is never wrong (even about Moiraine!). Therefore Bashere could be Demandred without Faile's knowledge. How the bad guys are pulling that off, I have no clue. It always seems the bad guys can do many more devious things than the heroes! <br /><br />Could it be Dobraine? He certainly never smiles and is always as grim as the reaper. But unless the baddies have concocted a new way to make illusion work and not fizzle at the touch, it certainly can't be him. (Knowing RJ, that probably makes him the better candidate now, especially since the bad guys can always do many more devious things than the good guys!)<br /><br />So who the heck is Mazrim Taim? A false Dragon that was almost crunched by AS, saved by Darkfriends, and promised immortality and wealth &amp; power unheard of if he swore to the dark side! All he needed to do was earn the trust of the Lord Dragon, begin making new Dreadlords, and be ready to rumble Tarmon Gai'don style. I guess in the end, after all is said and done, Taim is to Rand what Demandred was to LTT! Second best.<br /><br />What do you all think?</p><p><b>Raserei says:</b> I'm thinking....no.<br /><br />What about the fact that Bashere has a wife?  And Bashere talks to Perrin about his daughter?  Answer those.<br /><br /><br /> </p>


created: 2001-10-30 01:59:19
subject: Rand&#8217;s suicide and other thoughts
body:
<p>&#8220;You will know when it comes, sheepherder, when the price is worth the gain, and there is no other choice left to you.  That is called Sheathing the Sword.  Remember it.&#8221;<br /><br />I know this has been touched on before, but I thought I would add a few of my own thoughts on the subject.  It&#8217;s been a belief of mine, for quite some time, that Rand will end up committing suicide.  I&#8217;ve always thought that Lan&#8217;s conversation with Rand concerning &#8220;Sheathing the Sword&#8221; (tGH: Leavetakings) was more then a passing fancy, but rather early foreshadowing of how Tarmon Gai'don would unfold.  Another thing we&#8217;ve heard quite a lot about, is the Black Ajah&#8217;s circle of thirteen.  It&#8217;s easy to imagine a scenario where Rand would rather end his own life then be turned to the Shadow against his will.  I think it&#8217;s possible that all of this will occur sometime before Tarmon Gai'don.  We can be fairly certain, from prophecy, that Rand will somehow die and live again, but I think it&#8217;s likely that Rand will be completely absent from one or more books.  One finale point:  If Rand really is LTT reborn, it&#8217;s quite possible that dieing will completely resolve the issue of his conflicting personalities.  Brigitte seems perfectly comfortable with her reincarnation, and though her memory is starting to fade, she seems to draw a great deal of knowledge from her past lives.  If Rand was able to do the same thing, he may very well be unstoppable.<br /><br />Cheers!<br /><br />-Pointed Stick<br /><br /></p><p><b>Raserei says:</b> I always thought Shething the Sword was more important than what was led to be believed.<br /><br />But Birgitte isn't reincarnated.  She was ripped out as herself, from T'A'R.<br /><br /><br /> </p>


created: 2001-10-31 16:13:55
subject: Dragons are real
body:
<p>I believe that Lews Therin wasn't realy a man but a dragon.  I play many RPGs and dragons are almost always magical. and the equivalent of magic being the True Source.  Also does no one remember that Moghedien when she was in Salidar hid her ability to channel? Maybe a lost talent is hiding actual channeling.  So Lews Therin could then mask himself as a man and being one of the most powerful of channelers made a name for himself in a high standing position. Now look at his name the Dragon.  Maybe someone found out he was a dragon and he decided to call himself a dragon.  So if he is the Dragon and Rand is the Dragon Reborn maybe rather than Rand being a real dragon he is the human embodiment of a dragon or the Dragon's soul.  Then i believe what will give him and advantage in the Last Battle is he will discover how to become a dragon and call forth legions of dragons. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /></p><p><b>Raserei says:</b> Um...no.<br /><br />One, you base claim on the fact you play RPG's.  How is that evidence?<br /><br />Two, Moghy's &quot;ability&quot; to mask her channeling is something she teaches Nyn and co. in Salidar.  This is a thing with the power, the ability to invert their weaves, and to cover their radiant glow when they channel.  Mesaana also does this in the White Tower.<br /><br />Again, I reiterate.  No.<br /><br /><br /> </p>


created: 2001-11-01 13:11:14
subject: Balance
body:
<p>Now the Wot world is very based on balance, and people have felt that the Dark One and the Creator play a chess sort of game against each other, and use humans as the pieces.  <br /><br />Balance is continuously mentioned, the ying yang symbol that is the aes sedai symbol, is also a symbol for balance.  It's a know fact in the series. And people are contantly wondering why the Creator has only shown up once in the story and then only to say a few words to Rand at the end of TEOTW.<br /><br />Now it doesn't sound very balanced that the darkone is prisoned, and the creator is just throwing chess pieces at him every time he begins to work a hole through the prison.<br /><br />Then I thought, the only thing that would really be a balance is if the Creator was also imprisoned.  It would make sense on the balance scale and also since the Dark one is suppose to be his equal, why would the Creator be able to imprison him, maybe they imprisoned each other at the moment of creation? it'd definitly explain why the creator hasn't take a hand.<br /><br />But then you're wondering well if the creator can speak to Rand there must be a bore in his prison to, that is if he has a prison at all, and then this &quot;Guide&quot; gets published, and all of a sudden, there's this quiet little continent known as the &quot;Land of Madmen&quot;<br /><br />I propose that this is the scene of an anti-shayol ghul, and I know that it's a little far fetched, but it would certainly be an interesting twist to the story.<br /><br />Kidblondeel<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />PS I do realise that the creator not taking part could quite possible be just a similarity to our world where the higher powers, (who ever you believe in) don't seem to take a physical part in the world.</p><p><b>Raserei says:</b> Certainly is a nice Speculation.  <br /><br />But why the Land of the Madmen?  Why not Seanchan or Tremalking?<br /><br />It's poetic, but I don't know if it's plausible.<br /><br /><br /> </p>


created: 2001-11-01 13:23:52
subject: The Forgotten Sign
body:
<p>Let me try this.  What is the importance of Two Rivers/Emond's Field? (i.e. Aemon's Field)  What is the importance of the resurgence of Manetheren through The Band of the Red Hand, (traveling with the &quot;rebel&quot; Aes Sedai) and the raising of The Red Eagle banner again?  The Band of the Red Hand were a courageous group of soldiers who were the last to perish defending Manetheren and King Aemon.<br /> <br />&quot;The unstained Tower breaks and bends knee to the forgotten sign&quot; <br /><br />I'd like to submit that Egwene represents that forgotten sign.  The Red Eagle of Manetheren.<br /><br />Egwene... now Amyrlin of the rebels, from Emond's Field (the heart of ancient Manetheren) leading a seige on the White Tower; with The Band of the Red Hand (famous warriors from the last stand of Aemon and Manetheren against the Shadow)whom will eventually be led again by Mat, during the seige.  I'm aware that Perrin currently raises the Manetheren banner, but Mat has been known to scream in the Old Tongue, &quot;For the honor of The Red Eagle.  For the honor of Manetheren.&quot;  Could he not raise The Red Eagle himself.  If Egwene's seige is successful(which would take rooting out the Darkfriends from the inside of the Tower...including Mesaana), and she assumes the Amyrlin's duties for a united Tower, then would not the White Tower (now &quot;unstained&quot;... united and sans DFs) bow to Egwene from newly ressurected Manetheren?  Mantheren has been mentioned as a forgotten country with a forgotten sign.  I'll have to read the series again, to know who and when.  I'm thinking it was Lan or Moraine in Eye of the World. (shortly after Mat began speaking Old Tongue upon being surrounded by Trollocs)<br /><br />Also the fact that Rand, Egwene, Mat, Perrin, and Nynaeve come from Emond's field (once again: the heart of ancient Manetheren) sway me to believe in the importance of Manetheren's resurgence.  Look at the changes that have taken place in all of Two Rivers, let alone Emond's Field, since Perrin's stand in The Shadow Rising.  What better way to magnify that importance than to have an Amyrlin from their, and for the world, especially The White Tower acknowledge such.<br /><br />Whew... sorry this is so long... <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/oh.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />-mauladala</p><p><b>Raserei says:</b> It has been widely believed, and with good reason, that the forgotten sign is the old Aes Sedai Symbol <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aessedai.gif" border="0" /> the ying yang of WoT.  <br /><br />After Dumai's Well, Rand makes the Aes Sedai there who came to help, and I believe the Aes Sedai prisoners to bow and swear fealty to him as the Dragon Reborn.  I believe this fits the prophecy context more than Egwene as Manetheren's forgotten symbol.<br /><br />Plus, Manetheren is Perrin's bit, with his Red Wolf and Eagle.<br /><br /><br /> </p>


created: 2001-11-01 14:04:44
subject: The Taint, Shadar Logoth, Machin Shin, Padan Fain, and Rand's wounds.
body:
<p>Every WoT junkie knows the Pattern requires balance. Saidin/Saidar - Women healing gentled men/Men healing stilled women - Babies falling down stairs/Men choking on feathers - Et cetera. From Rand's wounds, we see that the taint on Saidin and the evil of Shadar Logoth are in counter-balance - The evil of man and the evil of the DO -  each wound throbbing on counter beats, Flinn's diagnosis of Rand's wounds and his guess that they may kill one another off, and finally in WH the cleansing of Saidin (or &quot;alleged&quot; cleansing of Saidin for the non-believers) using Shadar Logoth. At the end of WH, Flinn declares Rand's wounds unchanged, but he expected they would have been. Why didn't Rand's wounds change? Okay everyone....see where I'm going with this? No, you don't...<br /> <br />The reason why Rand's wounds aren't changed is because there is still something left of Shadar Logoth and something of the taint (I apologize to all the die hard &quot;No More Taint&quot;-ers): Padan Fain/Mordeth and Machin Shin.... Okay, now I'll explain:<br /><br />1. There is a balance within the Pattern between the taint on Saidin and the evil of Aridhol.<br /><br />2. The Ways were grown by male Aes Sedai after the DO tainted Saidin.<br /><br />3. (Here's a leap of faith, take it or leave it) The Ways do not exist within normal time/space. Perhaps it was created somewhere outside (or over or under or around) the Universe (much like Saidin and Saidar is outside creation)... A place where the taint of Saidin might be able to seep into and corrupt the Ways over time, no matter what.<br /><br />4. (Another leap of faith, take it or leave this one too). Machin Shin is a quasi-personification of the madness of the taint. Cadsuane tells Rand that part of the madness faced by male channelers are voices telling them to do things. Well, Machin Shin doesn't really 'tell' anyone what to do, but when Perrin got too close to Machin Shin on his way back to the Two Rivers, he heard it whispering and ranting about some rather morbid things... The Ways were grown using Saidin - since they were &quot;grown&quot;, assume they are alive in some sense. The taint affected the &quot;life&quot; of the Ways, corrupting it over 1000 years, and then Machin Shin started roaming around inside. Kinda like what happens to male channelers, only on a larger, more symbolic scale. Also, it has been theorized that Machin Shin is a parasite that has infested the Ways, living off of it. This could be a parallel to the wasting sickness that infects male channelers in the later stages of taint induced illness. <br /><br />5. Padan Fain/Mordeth was alive and somewhere in/near Far Madding at the end of WH. Mordeth is part of Shadar Logoth, or at least his evil is (and if you don't buy that, his ruby dagger is textually known to be part of Shadar Logoth). So, there is still something of the evil of Aridhol running around...<br /><br />6. And more than likely, the Ways are still dark. The effects of the taint stay even if the taint is removed. So, there is still a physical product of the taint running around: Machin Shin.<br /><br />7. Personally, I believe that Machin Shin is some form of parasite living off the ways - so it is some sort of living entity, which requires it to be balanced by something else... <br /><br />8. ...and the only one that fits the paradigm Jordan established is Padan Fain/Mordeth.<br /><br />9. Once the last vestiges of the taint/evil or Aridhol is taken care of, all that will be left is what is infecting Rand's wounds... The two evils will ultimately cancel out and that will be that...<br /><br />...and I'm spent<br /><br />Pookie</p><p><b>Raserei says:</b> My take on the ways, taint and so on.<br /><br />The Ways were grew by men who could channel.  Because the grew from a tainted saidin &quot;seed,&quot; they slowly degenerated into a form of deep dark taintness.  From this amalgamation of tainting, the Ways formulated, like a bad offshoot of a old and diseased tree.<br /><br />Now that Aridhol is gone, you still have Fain floating about with Mordeth in him.  But whats gonna happen to Mordeth when Fain dies?  Will Mordeth cease to be, or will he be free to haunt Westland like a really evil ghost?<br /><br /><br /> </p>


created: 2001-11-01 18:55:00
subject: Wheel creation
body:
<p>Been thinking about this all night and it still resembles a block of swiss cheese, but here I go.  The creator and DO are equal.  I base this on the RJ online chats.  He said they are equals.  period.  Assumeing these are entities of great power or gods, each a balance to each other.  I'm not gonna use good or evil, just opposites.  <br /><br />Now if I was some god that just existed and the closest thing I had to entertainment was some other guy that just disagreed all the time, I'd get irritated and bored and eventually ignore the bastard.  Im my bordom, I decided to make &quot;time&quot;.<br /><br />Im gonna model this &quot;time&quot; thing in such a way that it is perpetual and constant so that is keeps flowing back into itself.  kinda like a wheel.  By now the other guy is kinda interested in what I'm doing so in order to keep its paws off I gotta put a &quot;cage&quot; around it.  Now its still kinda boring as all it does is flow.  <br /><br />To make it interesting I need to add some randomness to it, but still make it follow the same path.  I'm gonna add three types of &quot;threads&quot; to go on the time-flowing-thingy. The threads are male, female, and its, and let them be a multitude of colors (ie wolves, ogier, trees). K, lets just call the time flow thingy a wheel of time for simplicity.   the threads by themselves are boring, 'cause they don't do anything so i'm gonna give them the ability to intertwine by themselves.  I call this &quot;life&quot;.  Now, they keep geting jumbled up so I need to add something to act as a strainer. I'm gonna make it moldable by the threads, but not destroyable.  I'm gonna call it, randland.  <br /><br />I really wish that other guy would stop poking through my cage and messing with my wheel.  I know, I will give my threads limited access to the force that powers my wheel so that they can defend themselves, and add a few specific threads that will bite that guys fingers every time pokes them in there.  Now we are talking entertainment!!! <br /><br />I think the wheel was made 'cause the DO and the Big C where bored.  Now I'm not sure if its more like a chess game or a movie, but thats my thought.<br /><br />The reason the DO is limited in what he can do is he can't destroy something made by the creator, likewise if the DO made somthing (IE his own wheel) the creator couldn't destroy it.  The best the DO can do is manipulate the wheel.  To destroy the wheel He would have to use the Creators power to do it hence the need for his champions that can use the creators power.  This is also why the AOL AS could bore into the pattern.  They where using a power created by the creator to do this.  It explains the taint.  the taint is described as Oil on water.  not mixing, but still in the same &quot;Place&quot;  The DO cant destroy saidin anymore the the creator could destroy the taint. the DO essence can't mix with the Creators. This is why the taint cannot be removed with the OP.  It can be moved however.<br /><br />The DO's prison isn't.  It just seems that way from the point of veiw of a randlander.  It's more like a fence to keep him out. <br /><br />His mastery over the &quot;dead&quot; is just the DO tying one thread to another. <br /><br />When balefired, its done with the OP and thus a thred is removed with the creators power.  hence out of the DO reach.  <br /><br />Damn I'm good.<br /><br />Lonely Trolloc <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /></p><p><b>Raserei says:</b> Awesome metaphor.  It's real good!<br /><br />You lose points for using Randland.  Bad! BAD!  hehe<br /><br /><br /> </p>


created: 2001-11-01 23:33:50
subject: The re-birth
body:
<p>I think I figured out how Rand will die and live again! I think he will die and go to the world of dreams like all the heros do. Then he will be ripped out like Birgitte and retain all his lives memories. That will give him knowledge of the one power and the clear sense of how to defeat the dark one. Anyway that's all i got.<br /><br /><br /><br />The lonely little wot addict <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gandalf.gif" border="0" /> The little guy with the hat <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/gandalf.gif" border="0" /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /> Flameweaver extrodinaire <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /></p><p><b>Raserei says:</b> This is nice and short and to the point.<br /><br />But, if that were true, wouldn't he go to the World of Dreams as LTT?  And then remember <i>all</i> of his lives as a Dragon?<br /><br />Hmm...that would be really cool if that happened. Get a perspective of what each Last Battle was like...<br /><br /><br /> </p>


created: 2001-11-04 02:42:41
subject: Logain/Taim/Narishma/Rand
body:
<p>There has been a lot of hoopla about a showdown between Logain and Mazrim Taim.  As much as I'd like to see Logain whoop up on Taim, I think we may have to wait a while before we see the fight.  Here's why...<br /><br />Let's face it, Mazrim Taim is a coward.  He's incredibly jealous over Rand, but cannot bring himself to the task of killing Rand.  Instead, he sends others to do it.  I agree with one person's comment that Taim is to Rand as Demandred is to Lews Therin.  I believe that once Taim thinks that he is found out, he will just disappear with all his little loyal Asha'man.  They will become new Dreadlords, along with the Black Ajah, in the last battle.  I think that Taim probably will stick around, though, maybe earning himself immortality.  Who knows?  <br /><br />All signs have pointed to Logain as playing a huge part in the story since the Eye of the World.  There are several theories behind his halo and assumed greatness, most of which are linked to either the Black Tower or the Last Battle.  Either way, he is linked to Rand.  I think we'll see Rand and Logain finally meet in Book 10 and Logain will swear fealty to him.  Jordan seems to show that Logain is not a bad guy, especially in the Prologue of Winter's Heart.<br /><br />I'm not sure if Logain will become the new leader of the Black Tower or will kick serious Shadowspawn butt at the Last Battle, or both, or neither, but he will help Rand.  I liked what someone said about him being added to the Heroes of the Horn after he dies.  That would be interesting, a False Dragon come back on the horn.<br /><br />Good old Narishma (forgive me if I mispell his name) went and got Callandor for Rand.  I believe he is trustworthy as well.  As to whether it will be him or Logain that replaces Taim as M'Hael, I don't know.  <br /><br />This is supposed to be a Theory that you can vote agree or disagree with, so here's my prediction (not that all will happen, just a guess):  Taim will leave the Tower, either Logain or Narishma will become M'Hael, the other will stick close to Rand.  All 4 will meet at the Last Battle, Narishma will die there (Jordan's killed some of the other original Asha'man that we all loved, why not another?).  Taim will not die there, but will be granted Immortality by Shai'tan and be part of a new Forsaken.  Logain will become Tamyrlin after it's all done.  And then, it will all happen again 7 ages later, with new people.  Sorry for any redundancy.</p><p><b>Bad Ash says:</b> Erm, I don't think so.  Okay, so maybe Logain can take over the Black Tower because Taim turned tail and ran.  He <i>is</i> a coward, and as such he could very well run away before fighting.  And yes, if he did run, I could see Taim as a Dreadlord.  This is if he isn't a Forsaken in disguise, like, say, Demandred.  If he is, your theory is moot.<br /><br />Now to my disagreements.  Logain is probably going to take over for Taim.  I believe that fulfills Min's vision.  Perhaps as M'Hael he will lead the Asha'man to glorious victory at TG.  That certainly would qualify.<br /><br />Um...I don't see the DO creating more Forsaken.  What would be the point?  To create more squabbling and infighting, as the current Forsaken do?  And Shai'tan is granting <b>nobody</b> immortality, least of all Taim.  Immortality is what he promises, but he's a liar.  Why wouldn't he be; he is evil after all.<br /><br />Logain as Tamyrlin?  We aren't even sure what a Tamyrlin is, and you make this a part of your theory.  Let's figure out what a Tamyrlin is first.<br /><br />And finally, if Taim was granted Immortality (which he won't be) why would new people do it all over in 7 Ages?  Taim's granting of Immortality can only occur if the DO wins, which means this wouldn't be done all over.  And if for some reason it <i>was</i> repeated, why would someone need to replace an immortal Taim?!?<br /><br />Sorry, your theory holds about as much water as cheesecloth.<br /><br /><br /> </p>


created: 2001-11-05 15:43:36
subject: Rand's Future
body:
<p>Okay, I've been reading the dream/propehcies again and starting to round out an idea about what actually happens to Rand at the end.<br /><br />First of all, I'm not sure if he's going to die at Shayol Ghul, I'm more focusing on other things.<br /><br />1. Severed hand. I don't know how this will happen, but I wonder if he ends up touching something similar to Mat's dagger from Shadar Logoth....He touches something that is inherently evil and his hand must be severed to prevent its spread. This could certainly happen at Shayol Ghul and be his 'blood on the rocks'. <br /><br />This is connected to Elayne, however, in Min's viewing &quot;a severed hand. not hers&quot;, and there are many ideas that Elayne will be rather busy becoming un-pregnant at that time. <br /><br />Lastly on this, elsewhere there was some comparison to Ragnarok, and Tyr lost his hand when he agreed to hold it in the Fenris Ulf's mouth so that it could be bound (and was subsequently snapped off). Perhaps this is one way the Bore is resealed?<br /><br />2. Egwene's dream: &quot;Logain, laughing, stepped across something on the ground and mounted a black stone; when she looked down, she thought it was Rand's body he had stepped over, laid out on a funeral bier with his hands crossed at his breast, but when she touched his face, it broke apart like a paper puppet.&quot;<br /><br />First, I believe Logain will be loyal. He's too much set up to be the hero then he is a bad guy. Also, i don't think Rand WANTS to rule anything. He certainly wants to simply study and 'be'. Plus, what would he do after successfully defeating the Dark One? How do you top that? How would he want to settle down to rule some country -- no matter what one it is? Illian and Tear hold no joy for him Caemlyn belongs to Elayne, Two Rivers will be for Perrin....what? <br /><br />I'm sure after having to juggle various Forsaken in his service, either by force or by sneakiness, of having to deal with the White Tower and Egwene being immensely full of herself, the last thing he'd want is a life of politics. <br /><br />So the funeral bier will be his escape route. He will need to 'die' so that he may live in peace. Logain makes the perfect replacement. A man born to, and well-suited for, leading others. A proper 'payment' for his redemption and aid and a perfect stand-in.<br /><br />What better way to end this most monstrous series than with the pre-eminent man in the world wandering off into the sunset with a beggar's staff, looking for a well-deserved peace? Remember how in TEotW he was most fascinated with the stories of Jain Farstrider?<br /><br />The paper puppet could be just that...a construct so that everyone THINKS Rand is dead. And Logain laughs because he knows the truth. Then, in TPD, she says, &quot;Rand, wearing different masks, until suddenly one of those false faces was no longer a mask, but him.&quot;<br /><br />He's already taken to wearing disguises a lot and he's got a bit of the gleeman in him anyway, from Thom's training/influence and his aptitude with instruments (sorry, tho'...no more flute playing with one hand) to the games he plays with people.<br /><br />He may even use it to escape his wives. I don't mean that so cruelly as it sounds, but The Dragon Reborn as first Consort of Cairhien? ummm.... or him as a Aiel Clan Chieftan? naaaahhh....or maybe even him just as a wanderer with Min? actually, that's a bit more possible. Of course, &quot;Travelling&quot; will certainly allow him to visit his wives any time he wishes, and the three women at the pyre could be there to support the facade. Plus, we know he's going to have at least 6 children (tho' what the wierdness with Aviendha's quartet is, no clue).<br /><br />Anyway, much of this is just speculation, but we DO see a lot of strong references or even direct examples of him using disguises to escape notice. And I am trusting in Logain; I like him a lot and I think he's a noble-type character -- the perfect king to deal with the crap that TG creates. The last thing Rand would want to do is pick up the pieces. He's done his job, let someone else handle that.<br /><br />Okay, shred away! :-) <br /></p><p><b>Roonas says:</b> I find this quite interesting, because this is the first time I have really had to think about how Rand will deal with having three wives POST-conflict. I like the way you point out his possiblity of just wandering off into the sunset ... although I do not think he will go alone - I do think he will leave most of the population in &quot;the dark&quot; about it ... even some of those closest to him - merely to allow them to get on with their lives as well.  Good theory! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /> </p>


created: 2001-11-05 23:40:24
subject: Ishy dead by his own choice?
body:
<p>This theory only works if you believe that Ishy is Moridin. Many have wondered why - if he's Ishy and died - came back with such glory in the DO's eyes. The answer is simple: it was the plan all along!! To prove this we have the following arguments:<br /><br />1. He didn't exactly do everything to defend himself against Rand in the Stone; he had access to the True Power and he could have used that to escape a number of times in like tEotW and in Falme. He could also have balefired Rand and got rid of him. He had fought him so hard earlier - and so superior - and suddenly he gives up!<br /><br />2. &quot;But Rand had Callandor&quot;, you say. But why does the enemy stay and fight someone he know will kill him? And someone so superior? Ok, Rand didn't know what he was doing, but Ishy isn't THAT stupid. He might be mad, but not stupid. <br /><br />3. He wasn't sealed with the rest in the Bore - read the prologue of tEotW - but the world believed him to be. And he encouraged them to believe so because knowledge is power, and when you know something your opponent doesn't, you have the advantage. The same reason why he did &quot;die&quot; was because he wanted the world to believe him dead.<br /><br />4. He returned with such honor and glory. No one of the others did that. They came crawling across their bellies to the world - but he rode on the winds. He alone has access to the True Power - no one of the others have that. And, he's Nae'blis, for Light's sake!!! All his commands come from the Dark One - directly!! Why would he have &quot;died&quot; if not for the illusion of him being gone so that he could come back and do the Dark One's bidding without anyone knowing it???<br /><br />Conclusion: He died by his (or the Dark One's) own choice to fool the world. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/baalzamon.gif" border="0" /></p><p><b>Raserei says:</b> NIce theory overall, but let's dig right into it. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />1: It's not that he suddenly gave up, but I believe it to be that Rand suddenly got stronger.  We know that male channelers grow in spurts, unlike the female gradual growing.  I mean, over the course of book one to three, he had to have grown somewhat.<br /><br />And he didn't &quot;suddenly give up.&quot;  He came across Rand who was obviously more powerful than when he began, and got a lot of training pounded into his head.  He was certainly a different guy when he met Ba'alzamon again at Toman Head.  And it's not like Rand went unscathed (the wound)<br /><br />2: Not stupid no, but you gotta realize that a) Ishy is <i>old</i>. I mean, he's been unbound and going about for the past 3000 years.  Thats gotta put some wear and tear on a guy.<br /><br />Plus, you have to consider in everything that Rand, and Mat and Perrin too for that matter, that they are ta'veren.  They pull the pattern.  If you or I were to go up against Ishy, we'd be worm food in two seconds flat.<br /><br />3: Well, again, Ishy was an old sonuvagun.  He was really weakening after 3000 years of being free.<br /><br />And people didn't know, excluding Forsaken, that Ishy was Ba'alzamon.  He had been under that guise for a long time.  People (like Rand) thought him to be the corporeal being of the Dark One himself.<br /><br />4: I think he was Nae'blis before he died.  So of course, were that true, he would come back youthful and full of vigor, and end up back to using the <i>saa</i>.<br /><br />Conclusion: I guess I disagree. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /> </p>


created: 2001-11-05 23:41:30
subject: Severed Hand
body:
<p>This is something I just noticed that might be of interest.  The vision that Egwene saw of Logain stepping over Rand's fake corpse may give us a clue as to the chronology of events in the series.  Egwene notes that Rand's &quot;hands&quot; are crossed on his chest.  This means that Rand will fake his death sometime before he loses his hand, since Egwene would probably have noticed if Rand only had one hand in this vision.  I think that Rand will continue to stay out of the public eye in the next book, and it looks like he will actively encourage the idea that he is dead.  Logain will come into his glory (which appears to be his taking control of the Asha'man) before Rand loses his hand (which may very well happen at the Last Battle).  Any thoughts?</p><p><b>Raserei says:</b> Nice catch.  I would have to agree?<br /><br />Let's see what the masses have to say.<br /><br /><br /> </p>


created: 2001-11-06 00:00:28
subject: Eye on a Balance Scale as at Winters Heart
body:
<p>a) Finns - Give up Half the Light of the World to save the World<br />b) Egwene - Weighing two Aes Sedai's on a huge Balance Scale. On his decision lay something vast, the world perhaps<br />c) Min - Eye on a Balance Scale<br />d) Egwene - Placing his left eye on a Balance Scale<br /><br />It is most likely that all of the above prophecies are connected to the same event.<br /><br />As at WH the only thing Mat has that could save the world is the HoV.<br />It is thought that Mat may give up an eye to lead the Seanchan. But considering Mat has kidnapped Tuon, the simple way to bind the Seanchan would be to take Tuon to Illian and use her as a hostage to stop the invasion. Suroth being arrested by the yellow haired Seeker when Tuon, Eaginin &amp; Bayle disappear on the same night should leave them leaderless and the suldam secret and the Shaido Wise Ones are both going to hurt them bad. Note Mat also has a destiny with Illian to rally the forces of light - as per the HoV legend.<br /><br />I put into an earlier post that the &quot;unstained Tower will break and bend to the forgotten sign&quot;. Some said this was Verin, Kurina &amp; Co swearing fealty to Rand, but I doubt Verin &amp; Co could be descibed as an 'unstained tower'. This must be the White Tower. And for the White Tower to bend to Rand, this must mean they have been dealt a huge blow.<br /><br />The DO's plan is to sow chaos, mainly the Seanchan (Semirhage) v The White Tower (Mesaana). (Rememer what Demandred said and Egwene also had a dream about this). <br />Once the Westlands has been united, only then will the Trollocs move southward. The borderlands are finished as those idiots have taken 200,000 soldiers south. After watching news of the recent wars we know that strategic weapons are hit first when a war begins. The next target must be the White Tower. <br /><br />When the WT is attacked I think Egwene will send Siuan (who is only 1 of 2 people who know where the HoV is) south to find Mat. Siuan is one of the Aes Sedai's on a balance scale. (She also has been told by Min not to be apart from Gareth Bryne for too long or they will both die - this adds to the suspense). At the same moment the Black Tower or the Two Rivers is attacked. Please note Bran Al'vere as the Mayor wears a 'balance scale' medallion as a sign of his office. Mat will then have to chose between two targets, he can only defend one at a time.<br /><br />The White Tower and the Black Tower - Giving up Half the Light of the World<br />The White Tower and the Two Rivers - Egwene &amp; Bode or his Mother, Father and Sister.<br /><br />A tough decision.<br /><br />This theory is as at WH. Obviously all could change in Book 10. But at the moment this is my best guess.<br /><br /><br /><br /> </p>


created: 2001-11-06 00:33:52
subject: On the Pattern
body:
<p>I hope people won't take this theory apart too harshly seeing as it's the first one i'm putting up for public censure. That said, here goes:<br /><br />It's quite simple little theory - we know ta'verens can draw to them what they need or cause people to act in ways that they normally would not.<br /><br />Well my theory is that the entire reason for the Siuan Sanche deposing and subsequent tower split is because of Mat. Cadsaune late in the series says she was glad Rand had not been taken to the tower because of the effect that he would have caused on the pattern in Tar Valon, it would have been a disaster.<br /><br />When Mat was in the tower, effectively prisoner, wishing like hell that Siaun and her keeper did not know that he had blown the horn, what happens? Siaun decides to entrust the girls with the hunt the black ajah mission, not only gives them a carte blanche but gives them a spare (Not very wise to hand out such power) and gives them a reason to need a trustworthy messanger to Elaines mother and thus give him a means of escape. In that chapter Mat's pov shows him laughing that Siuan's own words would set him free.<br /><br />That was his escape, but then Elaida started plotting, taking Siuan down and intending to put her head on the block. Was this purely to do with her ambition or was she being bent to Mat's desire to have incovenient Aes Sedai who knew too much silenced. Completely unknown to himself of course, but Mat has never had any love for Aes Sedai, so is it his unconcious doing the work to provide him with what he needs. The main motivation for mat at that point was to escape and disappear from Aes Sedai sight.<br /><br />The other thing known about ta'veren is that the pattern then pulls back onto course sometimes harder than it was going: Siuan is rescued, the tower splits and is moving to depose Elaida and install a regime sympathetic to Rand. All of which was needed by the pattern and all of which was jeopodized by Mats bending of fate.<br /><br />Thank you for reading.<br /><br />PS I don't know why you are all debating whether the forces of light can win, in a straight up battle all the forsaken need to do is go through the portal stones (which we know Lanfear at least can do) to all the alternate realities where the dark one has won and bring through all the troops. I got the impression, I don't know why but I seem to remember it was from something Verin said that the Dark One only breaks free (and I mean really free not just sending Shadar Haran through) if there is a hole not just in the current reality bore, but in the bores in all realities, just like he will only be really imprisoned if all the bores in all realities have been patched, the Dark one being able to reach from one possible world to others being a good reason why he can influence the world when he is imprisoned.</p><p><b>Raserei says:</b> Well, I agreed till the P.S.<br /><br />Those worlds in the Portal Stones are worlds that <i>might</i> have been.  Not world's that <i>are</i>.<br /><br /><br /> </p>


created: 2001-11-06 00:36:33
subject: On the Afterlife
body:
<p>There was a lot of controversy in a recent theory over the Forsaken's immortality and ressurection and why the DO hasn't brought back more of his followers from the AoL but only the recently dead.<br /><br />Demandred at one point wonders who Cyndane is but is confused because Graendal said she was weaker than her and thus she is not a transmigrated Lanfear.  This implys that this was known in the AoL well enough that a name was created.  Demandred in LoC in the Prologue enters the Bore and is impressed with it's growth but it was not as open as just before it was sealed.<br /><br />My guess is that the DO has so much power (True Power?) that he can send out to use in a general way depending on how open the Bore is.  First the Bore weakens and Aginor and Balthamel break out along with the cold weather in EotW.  The Eye seals it back to some degree and the weather corrects.  The rest of the Forsaken break free but when Ishy cries for help in the Stone he is unaided because the DO is not free enough to give him the TP.  Then the DO begins to send out his bubbles of evil.  In Book 6 the DO has enough power to restore Aginor and Balthamel to bodies.  Then he gets back Ishy and Lanfear.  Then we see the first use of the TP by Moridin.<br /><br />When Aginor comes back in the prologue of LoC, he recalls hellish pain and never wanting to die again.  I think there are similar passages with Moridin and A'rangar.  When Gode gets fried and Ba'alzamon takes him and gives his 'faithful hound' his reward Gode is happy for a second then is surprised by something horrifying he hadn't expected.<br /><br />What does this have to do with the Afterlife?  We know the Hunters dwell in TAR in relative happiness.  When Forsaken die they fall into the DO's power and he tortures them in a hell probably similar to his existence.<br /><br />Then what of those who 'walk in the light'?  We have little information.  The only hint we have is Kari Al'Thor in the end of EotW when Ba'alzamon uses her to goad Rand to his hopelessness.  She tells Rand that the DO has grown in power and seeks to steal souls with a honeyed tongue.  Rand frees her with saidin and hears her call out to the blessed Light that takes her back.  Some might think it illusion but I can't see a dispelled illusion embracing the Light.  So those who walk in the Light go to the Creator or Light's grasp until they are spun out again.<br /><br />This is why the DO must promise immortality.  Offering your followers hell is not a good marketing tool.  This power must be limited or he would give immortality to everyone who swore and served faithfully so he picks a choice few as examples and tries to draw others.<br /><br />The DO can not take souls out of the Light.  They must be drawn.  This is why the DO doesn't want Rand killed.  The dead are not his despite Ishy's ranting.<br /><br />I'm inclined to think the soul's the DO has captured give him his power and when he is defeated he is forced to release some (all?) of them.  Thus this chaos feeds him as more people abandon the Light as bandits, DF's, and even evil Dragonsworn and die in vast numbers.  If Rand dies after abandoning the Light he is the DO's.  Cadsuane and Sorilea might have an inkling of this and thus they try to get him to laugh and embrace the Light more fully.<br /><br />This could be the DO's full 'Lord of Chaos rule' plan.  If Rand is betrayed and haunted by hidden enemies and discord at every turn he will grow as twisted in the Light as Mordeth and fall to the DO after death or just as bad accept neither the Light or the DO and form something like Shadar Logoth and Cadsuane's idea of Rand's victory being as vile as the Shadow's come true.<br /><br />A sub-theory could be that Mordeth and Aridhol were so evil yet so opposed to the DO that their souls couldn't find the Light or the DO and so formed Mashadar and that bank of souls gave immortality to Mordeth so he could destroy their two opponents and return them to life again.</p><p><b>Roonas says:</b> Wow this theory was definitely a gem ... I liked your thought process alot, even if I did not agree on some minor philosophical (or rather metaphysical) points, this theory was still very well thought out, and deserves to be tested to the masses! Very nice job!<br /><br /><br /> </p>


created: 2001-11-07 22:32:17
subject: Rand not pulled from world of Dreams
body:
<p>I originally wrote this as a blackboard post, but I would like to submit it as a Theory as well.<br /><br />If Rand died and then was pulled from TAR, he wouldn't be Rand anymore. When one who is bound to the wheel dies they returne to the world of dreams as the person they were when they were FIRST bound. Birgitte was Birgitte when she was first bound, but she had many lives after that, but when she dies, she becomes Birgitte again in the world of dreams. When she was ripped out, she was in her original form. So if Rand died, he would go to the world of Dreams as he was when he was first bound to the wheel, waaaaaaayyy back in whatever age he was bound, probably the first. And if he was ripped out that is who he would be, Not LLT and Not Rand. He would have Rands memories sure, for a while at least. If im not mistaken, Birgitte's memories have begun to fade. Rand's memories would be the last to go, but it doesn't matter because He still is not Rand.</p><p><b>Raserei says:</b> It's a good point, and it depends on how Rand is put into the T'A'R as.  Either a) he is put into it as the <i>original</i> Dragon Soul, which we would know nothing about, b) He is put in as LTT, or c) he is put in as Rand.<br /><br />If it's a), then I don't really see the series progressed past Rand's death.  It would be pointless to introduce a character of that caliber that late into the series.<br /><br />If it's b), that would mean that, like Hawking, he was/is a Hero in the previous age and bound to the Horn.  Also, Rand &quot;hears&quot; LTT in his head, not the original Dragon Soul.  Which furthers the belief that LTT would be a Hero of the Horn.  If they were to rip him out, it'd be like mass deja vu, and I think if that were to happen, the same result would occur. I further <br /><br />If it's c), then Rand would have been bound as a new Hero of the Horn (along with Hurin. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" />), and if they were to rip him out, he'd have knowledge of his previous incarnations (which wouldn't be much if LTT was his previous self [that'd be interesting if Rand and LTT would be heroes]).  He'd just basicallyt pick up where he died, and kick some royal butt.<br /><br />But if c) were to happen, and if LTT is a hero of the horn, what would happen if Rand is pulled out of the T'A'R, and the horn was blown.  Would LTT and Rand meet face to face?  That'd be really cool, and a nice twist by RJ.<br /><br />P.S. I don't think Birgitte's memories faded. Right?<br /><br /><br /> </p>


created: 2001-11-07 22:36:31
subject: Rand, the Seals, Prophecies and the 2nd War of Power
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<p>Since this is my first theorie I'll keep it short and make it a double shot.<br /><br />First I think that the breaking of the seals is somehow linked to the fullfillment of the prophecy and Rands actions. <br /><br />Why? Simple, every time Rand has performed an action that was in keeping with the prophecy or was a major event in itself we see a seal turn up broken shortly there after. I don't have the books with me but one example is the finding of the first seal (broken) after the draining of TEotW. This can be linked to his drawing massive amounts of the OP but that has been covered in another theorie. so I'll leave it at that.<br /><br />Second I think most of you would agree that the War against the DO is already on, not at full force but it is raging. BTW I think this war will later be referred to as the 2nd War of Power. Rands cleaning of the male half of the OP will have broken the last remaining seals due to the massive amount of OP channeled. I believe this will destroy the already weakend cuelindar seals. In fact I say that the cleaning was the first stike in the Last Battle.<br /><br />That's all so rip away.<br />Gawain</p><p><b>Raserei says:</b> I took the breaking of the seals as a victory for the Dark.  There was another point where a seal showed up broken, and it was considered a win for the &quot;enemy.&quot;  Also a time when a seal showed up intact when the good guys won.<br /><br />I think, back me up here people.<br /><br /><br /> </p>


created: 2001-11-08 16:51:37
subject: Moiraine did it...
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<p>This is way out there I know...but look at the points and tell me whatcha think.<br /><br />1) Moiraine knows that Asmodean is in the disguise of Natel, many times you see her using her blue stone to listen in on someone, of course it's Rand.  And many times you see her listening in just after another mention of who Asmodean being.  Also from the letter she leaves Rand we know she knew as she says to be wary of him, she understands why he did it.<br /><br />2) Whoever killed him had to know where he would be that day, had to know who he was disguised as.  How many people knew for a fact Rand was going to attack Rahvin...not to mention that Asmodean was going to be there?  Moraine did, and she didn't even have a problem with him going.<br /><br />3) She knew she was going to go into the doorway with Lanfear or Rand would die, she had taken the cloth off of the doorway the night before and set an angreal there by the doorway.  She saw this in Rhuiden...what else did she see?  She clawed the angreal from Lanfear as they went through the doorway and it started burning away.  She had the angreal not Lanfear.  How powerful was that angreal?  It could very well have been powerful enough for her to overpower Lanfear.  If Moiraine had failed in killing Lanfear then she would have come to get rid of Rand right away.  We know the doorway and what is beyond, similar to the one in Tear it gives three things, not answers but &quot;gifts.&quot;  All you need to do is tell them what you want and you will get it, of course there is that price to pay they forget to tell you about.  What if Moiraine puzzled it out?  She defeated Lanfear, if not killed her at least tied her off from escaping.  And went to the people that are there and requested three things...three things she knew she had to from Rhuidean.  One might have been to manifest in randland to kill Asmodean.  <br /><br />4) The note she leaves to Rand mentions something at the end of it, something about seeing one other thing which was of little consequence to him.  Why else bring it up in a letter to him?  The same letter she says she knows about Asmodean.  &lt;shrugs&gt;<br /><br />I have a bit of a hard time buying it myself I shall admit...but she is a very unlikely suspect of them all, and the way I see it the clues very well could point to it being her.  She saw why he did it, stayed out of it for the most part.  But Moiraine would never leave for good knowing that a forsaken, even cut off was that close to Rand.  It would risk to much having him close without her watching him anymore, she had to get rid of him.<br /><br />Maybe her price for what she gets is time spent in finnland, maybe doing something for them for a time for letting herr take care of that one thing.  We know, or guess at the fact she will return again.  Pardon my spelling and grammar in this...up all night...no sleep.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /></p><p><b>Burr says:</b> It's definitely a possibility, and it isn't an easy one to disprove.  Of course, it isn't an easy one to prove either.<br /><br />It's problems are mostly equal to those of the Lanfear theory.  In one way it is simpler than the Lanfear theory: Moiraine isn't a Forsaken, so the Finn would more likely allow her to have three wishes.  However, in another way this puts the Moiraine theory at a disadvantage: Lanfear knows Asmo well enough that, in wishing to kill him, she would have more of ways of phrasing the wish without it touching the Shadow.<br /><br /><br /> </p>


created: 2001-11-09 13:47:25
subject: Strife Between Elayne and Perrin
body:
<p>From what I've gathered on this list, everyone seems to be assuming that Perrin with the new Manetheran and Elayne of Andor will get along hunky-dory.<br /><br />I think that's a big mistake.<br /><br />Several times, Elayne has expressed anger, dismay or concern over the Two Rivers region. In tEotW, she asserted how Morgase had said they WILL know the sight of a tax collector -- soon. Okay, so that didn't work out, but she will likely want the same thing. One monarch willingly gives up land for nothing?<br /><br />Also, in another book (I forget which one), she was furious about a banner being raised in the West. I think she even termed it rebellion.  Why should she be any more accepting of it because it's Perrin? She barely knows him by sight.  Plus, the Saldeaen thing is a threat. More on that in a bit.<br /><br />Elayne is bound and determined to claim her birthright.  She's not going to give up substantial lands without a fight.<br /><br />Now let&#8217;s talk about Perrin.<br /><br />He's raised the banner of the Red Wolf. He likely doesn't fully know what that means, but that's as much declaring rebellion and an attempt to renew Manetheran.  <br /><br />Plus, there's Faile, and she's a big problem.  She's the cousin to Tenobia. If something should happen to Tenobia, who is heir?  She is, possibly, or at least her father, which puts her next in line. Which puts Perrin, her husband, next in line as well.<br /><br />Perrin already has the Two Rivers region. He has, essentially, Ghealdan, through Alliandre.  With very strong family ties to the family on the throne of Saldea, and by extension relations with most of the Borderland Nations, he suddenly has the makings of an enormously powerful confederacy (read: Empire). Such a union could pose a threat to Andor.  Nobody likes to see powerful kingdoms and alliances form on their borders.<br /><br />Now, Perrin may not know what he's doing, but Faile certainly does (or at least the ramifications).  She herself even told an anecdote about how her father went and re-inforced the sovereignty of Saldaea over some outer provinces who hadn't been part of the kingdom for a few generations -- a distinct allusion to Andor and the Two Rivers. <br /><br />Lastly, even when Perrin was informed of this, he wasn't impressed.  He hasn't yet shown any inclination to rejoin Andor. He isn't flying Andor's banners or sending emissaries. <br /><br />Elayne is not one to tolerate rebellion, even for Rand. And that, effectively, is what Perrin is doing. I think this is going to be a big factor fairly soon. <br /><br />Oh, and let's not forget that the past Queen of Andor is a willing servant of Lord Perrin....<br /><br />What do you all think?</p><p><b>Burr says:</b> Well, I'm not sure if they'll have time for anything like that in book 10, and in future books it seems that TG will be too near for anything like that.  It may be one of those conflicts that will either be taken care of on the side, without significantly changing any plotlines, or else be left open at the end of the series.<br /><br />But I would raise my eyebrows <i>and</i> sniff if RJ failed to confront the problem at all.<br /><br /><br /> </p>


created: 2001-11-09 14:07:45
subject: The Secret of Raserei?
body:
<p><b>This theory has been edited for Week 3 of the wotmania Knife of Dreams  Internet Hunt. Go to the bottom for the Questions.</b><br /><br />One of the problems in any Internet community is that people may not be who they appear to be.  Who is the person behind the name?  One name that pops up all over the site is 'Raserei.'  But just who is Raserei?<br /><br />At first glance, he might seem like one of the most upstanding, responsible members of the community.  He is in Chat often, and he is an Admin.  He is one of the Theory Post Admin, and Admin of Other Fantasy News.  He is also listed as one of the FAQ Admins.  In addition to that workload, he seems to post at least once in <i><b>every</b></i> post!  Quite a guy!<br /><br />Of course, if that were the simple truth, I would have nothing further to say.  However, I fear the full extent of the story is far darker.  I beleive 'Raserei' does not, in fact, exist.  He is a figment, a shadow, a puzzle.  I believe that 'Raserei' is sort of a community property username that admins/elders use when they wish to drop their guard and act silly, post spam, or otherwise be other than they usually are.  I'm telling you this goes all the way to the <b>top</b>!  That's right, even up to Wotmania himself.  I now present the evidence:<br /><br /><b>Personal Interaction:</b>  This provided me with my first clue.  You can often have a chat with Ras about one thing one day, and the next day he remembers none of it.  He acts like he doesn't remember the conversation, and then he tries to pretend that he does.  I have had just such a conversation with him, or I guess I should say, with <i>them</i>.<br /><br /><b>Theory post:</b>  In this very section of Wotmania you can find 'Raserei's' remarks about and comments upon our theories.  Of course, if you read through the theories to look for those by Ras, I believe you will find, as I have, that Ras provides the least 'certain' replies of any of the theory post admins.  Why, you may ask?  Because when one of the normal theory post admins reply, but they aren't sure, they don't want to appear as if they don't know.  Why not log in as Ras, so you need not appear uncertain?  If you wish to totally blast a theory for being foolish, why not use the name 'Raserei' and keep your reputation as a nice guy?<br /><br /><b>Other Fantasy News:</b>  I know little about OF, but I'm sure someone can fill in this void in my otherwise complete theory.<br /><br /><b>FAQ:</b>  Although listed as one of the FAQ writers, he has credits for precious few of the FAQ articles.  Perhaps an oversight by those who wish us to believe that he is an actual person?  After all, for such a prolific member of our community, he has done nearly nothing here.  Very suspicious.<br /><br /><b>Posts:</b>  If I had no other evidence, this would be enough.  Nearly everything he posts is Spam.  Since the inevitable end of everyone who lasts long enough at this place is to wallow in the creation of Spam, how do we account for the lack of spam by such elders as Simon, Paul, Wotmania?  Well, if one of these people feels the urge to Spam, why not log in as Ras?  All of the fun, and your reputation is unscathed.  Think about it.  Further, consider the sheer <i>number</i> of posts he has.  How could anyone find the time to respond to <i>every</i> post on the MB?  Simple.  It could not be done.  Clearly, it would take a group effort.  I believe that such a group exists, and they walk among us, wearing a single mask.  Perhaps each 'Ras' response carries some kind of worm, so the Elders can monitor our postings.  Perhaps that is why there must be one in each MB post.  <i>shudder</i> <br /><br /><b>The Gallery:</b>  Go to www.geocities.com/wotmaniacs.  Look at all the pretty pictures.  See if you can find Raserei.  You will not.  I think we all know why.<br /><br />I know by exposing this awful secret, I have given up any chance whatsoever to gain access to the Ras password.  I consider it a small price to pay for exposing the truth behind this awful hoax.  Fight the Power!  I have in my hands a list of communists in the U.S. State Department... err... I have in my hands a list of Admins and Elders who masquerade as the user 'Raserei', that is.  <br /><br /><i>During World War II, the saying &quot;Kilroy Was Here!&quot; began to appear as graffiti at home and wherever the American military traveled abroad. Eventually the saying, and the cartoon character that often accompanied it, came to represent America's worldwide presence. Today, it remains a whimsical symbol of the momentous achievements made by an entire generation of Americans during the 20th century's darkest hour.</i><br /><br />Anywhere in the world you found Kilroy, American GI's had been.  Raserei is Wotmania's Kilroy.  Just know, that where you find Raserei, the Elders are watching you...<br /><br /><b>1. The Sovin Nai are the: </b><br /><br /><b>A)</b> Dawn Runners<br /><b>B)</b> Thunder Walkers<br /><b>C)</b> Knife Hands<br /><b>D)</b> True Bloods<br /><b>E)</b> Water Seekers<br /><br /><b>2. Roughly how long did the Time of Madness last? </b><br /><br /><b>A)</b> 50 years <br /><b>B)</b> 75 years<br /><b>C)</b> 100 years<br /><b>D)</b> 125 years<br /><b>E)</b> 150 years <br /><br /><b>3. Which of these is a game played in the WoT world? </b><br /><br /><b>A)</b> Aces<br /><b>B)</b> Top<br /><b>C)</b> Eights<br /><b>D)</b> Order<br /><b>E)</b> Hearts<br /><br /><b>4. Which of these questions was NOT answered with a RAFO (or similar)? </b><br /><br /><b>A)</b> Was the Dark Prophecy in The Great Hunt (Now the Great Lord comes...) a real prophecy, or was it a taunt?<br /><b>B)</b> How do you explain the longevity of the Kin?<br /><b>C)</b> When Slayer vanished at the Tower of Ghenjei did he enter it, or did he step out of the Dreamworld?<br /><b>D)</b> Can you tell us about Kari al'Thor? Where was she from, etc<br /><b>E)</b> Is our Earth a future (or past) turn of the wheel?<br /><br /><b>5. In which Chapter of Path of Daggers did we read from Assid Bakuun&#8217;s PoV? </b><br /><br /><b>A)</b> Chapter 22<br /><b>B)</b> Chapter 23<br /><b>C)</b> Chapter 24<br /><b>D)</b> Chapter 25<br /><b>E)</b> Chapter 26<br /><br /><b>6. Which of these Forsaken, aside from Moridin, is known to have played tcheran? </b><br /><br /><b>A)</b> Moghedien<br /><b>B)</b> Sammael <br /><b>C)</b> Semirhage<br /><b>D)</b> Mesaana<br /><b>E)</b> Aginor<br /><br /><b>Which of these is the strongest Channeler? </b><br /><br /><b>A)</b> Bode<br /><b>B)</b> Kerene<br /><b>C)</b> Amys<br /><b>D)</b> Meilyn<br /><b>E)</b> Romanda<br /></p><p><b>Raserei says:</b> Does my posting in here deny my existance?<br /><br />*disappears in a puff of logic*<br /><br /><br /> </p>


created: 2001-11-12 21:15:49
subject: Theodrin and Faolain: Elaida's little helpers!
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<p>Theodrin and Faolain are spies for Elaida. I'm convinced of this, and have been for a while, to the extent that I was surprised the possibility has not been mentioned before on the Theory Post.<br /><br />The concept of spies within the rebel Aes Sedai's camp has been mentioned frequently throughout the series. For instance, Nynaeve thinks 'How had Elaida discovered Salidar so quickly...the most common explanation [was] secret supporters of Elaida here in Salidar' (LOC, Questions and Answers). The precedent of spies has also been set by the infiltration of the White Tower by rebel AS. The fact that this possibility is mentioned so often suggests foreshadowing by Jordan.<br /><br />Of couse, we already know of spies within Salidar: Halima, for the DO, and quite possibly Sheriam for Alviarin (if Sheriam is a spy, it isn't for Elaida, who thinks 'Some [rebels] would have to be stilled, of course - Sheriam, a few of the the more prominent so-called sitters' (ACOS, Prologue))<br /><br />Theodrin and Faolain make perfect spies. They have not held the Oath Rod, and thus can lie to infiltrate the rebels. They are considered somewhat above normal Accepted (and later are made AS by Egwene, of course), and as such have the opportunity to do and learn things other non-AS cannot. They have attached themselves to those Elaida is interested in: Theodrin gains the confidence of Nynaeve by attempting to remove her block, while they both attach themselves closely to Egwene.<br /><br />Several aspects of their behavior are extremely suspicious. First, consider Faolain's character. She hates Egwene, Nynaeve and Elayne, and her behaviour towards them in the White Tower is contemptuous and malicious: for instance, trying to goad Egwene into speaking when she is not allowed to (TDR, 'Tar Valon').<br />In this - and other aspects of her personality, such as her hatred of wilders - she is closer to Elaida, or even Liandrin, than any other character. Min is immediately suspicious that someone with these character traits would choose Salidar:<br /><br />&quot;Min recognised her, an Accepted named Faolain; she would have expected her to be in the tower still. Faolain had never liked anyone or anything as far as Min knew, and had often spoken of choosing the Red Ajah when she was raised. A perfect follower for Elaida.&quot; Well, quite. And yet she joined the rebels, chose the Blue Ajah, and even swore allegiance to Egwene.<br /><br />Jordan has often spoken in interviews about the definitive moral tone to TWOT: 'good' characters, while they might be arrogant (Faile) or affected adversely by their circumstances (Gawyn, to a degree Rand), are all essentially caring, good people. Faolain has, as yet, shown no sign of this.<br /><br />Now, let's consider Theodrin. Firstly, since joining the rebels, why has she been so completely inseperable from Faolain, seemingly completely different from her in every aspect of her character? Their positions as the only Accepted just below the level of AS, and later as AS barely accepted as such, could have brought them together somewhat, but surely not to this degree?<br /><br />In the 'Question and Answers' chapter of LOC, Theodrin sees Nynaeve crouched below a window, blatantly spying on Sheriam and co. She does nothing, pretending the incident has not occurred. Nynaeve is stunned: 'No questions? No accusations?'. Theodrin could have behaved in this manner because she liked Egwene, or wanted to continue working on her block, but neither explanation is likely. After all, if Theodrin were not a spy, she would have suspected Nynaeve herself of being one, or even a darkfriend: suspicions which would surely of led her to report Nynaeve's behaviour.<br /><br />On the other hand, if Theodrin herself were a spy for Elaida, why should she confront Nynaeve for being likewise, and risk being discovered if Nynaeve wasn't?<br /><br />Furthermore, Theodrin and Faolain's explanation for leaving the tower, that what Elaida did 'wasn't right' is deeply unconvincing, and is completely invalidated by their excuse for attaching themselves to Egwene (because she is the Amrylin, and this takes precedent over her age and Faolain's dislike for her - yes, well so is Elaida, why didn't they follow a similar logic and ally themselves with her. Oh, they did!)<br /><br />Anyway that's my (rather long-winded, sorry) theory. More interesting than another Demandred one , anyway.<br /><br /><br /></p><p><b>Burr says:</b> I can see your case where Faolin is concerned, especially given Min's quote, though I'm not completely convinced.  You say that we have seen no example of Faolin's &quot;goodness,&quot; but that's only if you already assume she is a spy for Elaida.  If she is not, then helping Egwene is an example of her goodness, despite her arrogance.  Moreover, if she isn't &quot;good,&quot; then she is more likely a spy for the Shadow than a spy for Elaida.<br /><br />Other than that she approached Egwene with Faolin, I can see no reason to suspect that Theodrin is a spy.  She may well have not chastised Nynaeve simply because she could sympathize, or because she didn't think it would do any good to chastise her, or any other number of reasons.  Maybe she intended to do some spying herself, but even if so, whose to say she would be spying for Elaida, instead of spying for her own reasons (like Nynaeve.)<br /><br /><br /> </p>


created: 2001-11-14 14:20:15
subject: Ta'veran and their Limits
body:
<p>In Jordan's books, we have several threads of power manifest in people that weave in amongst each other -- but are very separate and distinct. (I'll build to the point, but need some set-up)<br /><br />1. We have Aes Sedai, and other female channelers. Powerful in their own right, but less so then male channelers. Their power is in their numbers, organization and stability, and Saidin to back it up.<br /><br />2. Male Channelers. These are (or were) the tainted ones. More powerful, in general, then female channelers, they lack some of their gifts (i.e. the ability to link and others). Plus, of course, there's been the taint.<br /><br />3. Ta'veren.  People -- though it is noteworthy that the only examples I have seen have all been male -- who affect the weave of fate.  Not necessarily channelers, and in fact, very rarely so.<br /><br />Now, how does that work into RJ's current world?<br /><br />You have Rand Al'Thor, the most powerful Ta'veren since Artur Hawkwing (who was NOT a channeler).  Then you have Mat and Perrin. Now, we've been aware of 3 ta'veren the entire series, so we're not really faced with their true rarity, but they ARE rare.<br /><br />Artur Hawkwing, a powerful Ta'veren, had it so strongly that he was essentially able to counter Guaire Amalasen, the False Dragon.  Guaire is particularly noteworthy as a False Dragon, possibly due to his power, and possibly to his success.  Yet Hawkwing -- surely gifted in other things -- was able to consistently defeat or fight to a standstill the forces of Amalasen, despite usually being out-numbered and definitely out-powered. <br /><br />Now, here's a big question, and one I don't think has been answered:  Was Lews Therin ta'veren?  I can't find my copy of tEotW, in which we have our best presentation of him, but I don't recall other instances of it being mentioned.  Thus, I'll proceed under the assumption that he wasn't. <br /><br />I think it's legitimate that any reborn Dragons (and we get the sense that through the ages there have been a number), are NOT all 'exactly' alike. <br /><br />Now we have Rand al'Thor, the Dragon Reborn, who is also the most powerful ta'veren since Hawkwing.  That makes for a pretty impressive combination.<br /><br />Plus, he has the assistance of two other ta'veren. Now, there's no way to tell how strong Mat and Perrin are, since we only have Rand (and reports of AH) to judge by, but my guess is that ANY ta'veren is 'strong', as such things are measured.  Maybe some other people have a knack for being lucky or so -- minor aspects of being ta'veren, but I think being ta'veren means that you are strong enough so to be considered it. i.e., if you weren't strongly ta'veren, you wouldn't be ta'veren.<br /><br />None of the Forsaken are ta'veren. If any were, surely they'd have been Naeblis from the beginning. Plus, things would be very different. This is also notable as comparison for LTT.  Demandred was always considered *this* much behind LTT, and if LTT was ta'veren, the gap would've been pretty huge, instead.<br /><br />So...here's my theory: that Rand al'Thor is the Dragon Reborn -- with the ADDED benefit of being ta'veren. Plus, he has the aid of two other ta'veren. <br /><br />And THAT is what is going to make the difference. LTT basically failed. Oh, he succeeded in sealing up the bore, but essentially he put a band-aid on the world. Books aren't written about losers or second-place finishers...they're written about the people who are different.<br /><br />Thus, I think being the Dragon Reborn AND ta'veren, with the help of two others, will be what gives Rand the needed capability to do whatever needs to be done. Perhaps that means release the Dark One so that it may be re-imprisoned in a Bore-free jail.<br /><br />Last note about LTT...perhaps LTT was even a 'false' Dragon -- insufficient to do the job. When he basically killed himself...what killed him? The description sounds like balefire. But from where? From whom?  but that's purely an aside.</p><p><b>Burr says:</b> No ta'veren Forsaken?  What about Ishamael?  Isn't it possible that he has been Naeblis all along?<br /><br />Whether he has been Naeblis or not, I think it is quite possible that he is ta'veren.  You speak of Artur Hawkwing's victories against Guaire Amalasen.  But Hawkwing was far from victorious when he met Ishamael; it was Ishamael who spun Hawkwing's destiny.  Certainly, Ishamael could Compell and had other AoL knowledge that Guaire did not have; but then, so did Lews Therin.  Just as Artur Hawkwing defeated Amalasen, so did Ishamael defeat Lews Therin, up until the Strike at Shayol Ghul.  And in many ways, he defeated him there as well.<br /><br /><br /> </p>


created: 2001-11-16 13:54:51
subject: Tel'aran'RAND...
body:
<p>It seems as this is a much debated topic right now, and I'm not too sure my mind is made up either way, so I figured I'd post the opposite of the 'Rand not pulled from world of dreams' theory...<br /><br />Lets look at a hypothetical situation...<br /><br />Rand dies somehow.  Not even going to attempt this question, but lets just say he does BEFORE Tarmon Gai'don.  I think this would suck and wouldn't really bring the nations together, but lets pretend for a moment it happens.<br /><br />By now, Logain has ousted Taim (or the cowardly lion has left already) and is the head of the Black Tower.  Rand's gone, no Dragon Reborn to fight the last battle.  Logain, being the noble hero guy he's been built up to be, leads the attack on Shayol Ghul, with Matt and Perrin leading all their prospective nations.  Matt blows the horn, and lo and behold, here comes Rand with Hawkwing, eagle eye, etc.  Rand is there to fight the last battle.<br /><br />Some people think a hero goes into the horn as the last person they were, some think first.  Some think it's just whatever you choose. I personally have not swung either way with them; there simply is not enough concrete proof to show either way, in my humble opinion. Therefore, I don't know whether he'll be Rand, Lews Therin, Guiare, George W., Mickey Mouse or Howard Stern while in T'A'R, But in this scenario, the Dragon will be at the last battle.  This might explain some of our dreamers' dreams and our viewer's views.  <br /><br />Now, big problem with this:  Can the heroes shed blood?  I don't think they do.  Did they in Falme?  I'm not sure, but I'm leaning towards no.  If they can't, Rand can't shed his blood on SG.  Unless we're talking about blood family --Now that would answer that one, depending on how you interpret the prophecy.  There are a lot of open ends to this; I'll be the first to admit it.<br /><br />Anyway, I've tried thinking 'out of the box' with this one, hopefully inspiring a new and interesting theory.  The likelihood of this happening is as good as any when RJ's in control, and we are not!  Speculation, isn&#8217;t it great?<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" /> Until Nynaeve quits pulling that braid,<br />     May you find water and shade!  <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/perrin.gif" border="0" /><br /></p><p><b>Raserei says:</b> Ah!  Nice creative thinking.<br /><br />But you are right, if Rand is to <i>literally</i> to shed blood on the rocks of Shayol Ghul, then I don't think that can be fulfilled through this venue.<br /><br />Perhaps the masses has something to say.<br /><br /><br /> </p>


created: 2001-11-17 13:21:00
subject: On the Dragons, Reincarnation, and the Third Man in Rand's Head
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<p>Must the &quot;Dragon Reborn&quot; refer to the *very next* incarnation of the Dragon?<br /><br />I submit that  the Dragon is like other souls the Wheel spins out in time of need, that he may be reincarnated during an Age and not merely at the end of it.  I also submit that the third man whom Rand sees in his head is Guaire Amalasen, who is also an incarnation of the Dragon.<br /><br />There is no hard evidence in the books to back up this theory, other than a vague similarity between the face Rand sees and the small description of Guaire in the Guide.<br /><br />However, there is some logic to this theory if we consider the methods of the Wheel.<br /><br />The Wheel weaves out souls in order to achieve some purpose in the Pattern.  The more dire or major the change to the Pattern, the stronger the soul the Wheel weaves to enact it.  The end of an Age is so cataclysmic that it requires the strongest thread it has available: the Dragon.  However, it's possible that a change may need to be made during an Age that requires use of the Dragon as well.<br /><br />Now consider the case of Artur Hawkwing.  The Wheel wove him out to achieve some major goals: the Consolidation of Randland, and of Seanchan, and 1000 years later the struggle between these two continents.  For this purpose, Hawkwing was a strong ta'veren.  However, in order to fulfill Hawkwing's destiny, he must be presented with a challenge that must push his abilities to the limits and thus &quot;express&quot; his ta'veren-hood.  (Rand's visions into the mirror worlds, where he never became the Dragon that he was destined to be, reveal what happens when a ta'veren or other strong soul is deprived of the call to adventure and his abilities lie dormant.)   The challenge must be greater than can be overcome by an ordinary person; it must be suitable to the level of the Hero.  Thus, for an Uber-ta'veren like Hawkwing, the Wheel would need another very strong soul to create the appropriate challenge for Hawkwing, and the Dragon was the only suitable soul to use.<br /><br />One may wonder, if GA was Rand's last incarnation, why LTT was in Rand's head first.  It may be that LTT and Rand are &quot;closer&quot; to one another, being Age-ending Dragons.  Or it may be Madness-related, since Guaire apparently never became truly mad, but LTT was mad for sure.  Cadsuane has said that hearing voices is a symptom of the Madness, so it may be that Rand, being mad to a degree, is able to communicate more strongly with LTT than GA.</p><p><b>Burr says:</b> Though it is one of the theories I wish would be true, it is hard to believe that Guaire Amalasen was an incarnation of the dragon.  You make a good point about Hawkwing's need for a challenge.  One might say that it is the Pattern's need for balance that was satisfied by Guaire's thread.  But if that were true, wouldn't the Pattern have already prepared a suitable challenger, rather than just grabbing at the next best thread available?  While Guaire might have balanced Artur Hawkwing, could Hawkwing have balanced the Dragon?<br /><br /><br /> </p>


created: 2001-11-18 16:10:56
subject: Blue flashes in Whitebridge
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<p>I think the Whitebridge itself caused the blue flashes in Thom&#8217;s fight with the Fades. The Whitebridge is not just a monument left over from the Age of Legends, but is actually a ter'angreal meant to detect and fight Shadowspawn. After all, although people in the AoL did sometimes create things just for the sake of beauty, these things often also involved the OP. If the blue flashes were not caused by OP daggers or by Thom channeling (I think one or both of these have been ruled out), that leaves the possibility that when the Fade fought was fighting Thom, the Whitebridge ter'angreal helped Thom to destroy it. There is also mention of Rand seeing a black spot on the Whitebridge when he is entering the town on Domon's ship. The black flash could be the Whitebridge detecting the Myrddraal as it first entered the town. Somehow the Fade's &quot;revealing itself&quot; to fight Thom made it easier for the Whitebridge to attack it. Its violent response was what destroyed the houses in the town. This might also explain the townsfolk's refusal to explain what had burned the houses down - they might not want to admit that center of their town was a ter'angreal, using the feared One Power.</p><p><b>Burr says:</b> Well, the Fade was not destroyed; it merely left because the boys were it's prey, not Thom.  Therefore, it isn't likely that the Whitebridge set the fire.  Such a ter'angrael probably wouldn't have been worth making.  However, that the Whitebridge detected the Fade is a good idea.<br /><br /><br /> </p>


created: 2001-11-19 17:48:35
subject: Niartur?
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<p>A fun little hypothesis.  I feel that everyone is  entitled to one crazy idea a month; here is mine for the month of November!<br /><br />In tGH Artur Hawkwing mentions to Rand that he as fought on his side a thousand times and against him as many.  This has fueled speculation that Guaire Alamasan was another incarnation of Rand/LTT.  Not saying yah or nay lets take that speculation further. <br /><br />What if Pedron Niall was Artur Hawkwing reborn?  (I will deal with the obvious timeline problem with Niall dying after Falme soon.)  Consider Pedron Niall's death from his PoV.  Pedron Niall sees a fog then starts ordering a battle.  While not near the status of evidence, the wording of this invokes what had happened in Falme.  It is suggestive the Pedron Niall is a hero of the horn.<br /><br />Mostly, I like this hypothesis, not because of evidence but because of it poetic symetry, though.  Artur Hawkwing was the greatest ta'veren of his day.  He united all the nations and succeeded in helping to cast down a false dragon.  He had the strength to oppose the WT and attacked them.  Pedron Niall had the same ambitions and a similar personality but failed because the pattern wasn't with him.  (Not that Artur Hawkwing was a success in the end.)   <br /><br />Ok now to the problem with Artur Hawkwing fighting in Falme at the same time that Pedron Niall lived.  There are two important facts.  (It is interesting to note that this same evidence can be used to give some life to the Olvercaine hypothesis (Olver is Gadal Caine). )The first is that time can shift in large ways (by factor of years in T'A'R) . Birgitte mentions this fact after Gadal Caine is spun out.  The second is the fact that the heros were not completely in the waking world in Falme.  Birgitte mentions this in &quot;Need&quot; in tSR.<br /><br />&quot;As for Falme, the Horn had called us; we were not there as you were, in the flesh.  That is why the Power could not touch us.  Here, <i>all</i> is part of the dream.&quot;<br /><br />(Birgitte is in T'A'R at the time so &quot;Here&quot; refers to T'A'R. )  Niall/Artur weren't in two separate places in the waking world at the same time.  Niall was in the waking world.  Artur was in the dream world at a different time.  When Niall died he died into the present (T'A'R wise) at Amadicia.  That present is just two or so years slower than the present at the events of Falme so that Pedron Niall dies into a time before Falme.  (The same can apply in the opposite direction for Olver Caine.)<br /><br />If you didn't get that fully don't worry, I am not sure I fully understand it myself.  Then again, I don't think anybody, except possibly RJ (and I am not 100% sure about that) quite understands what is happening with the time weirdness of T'A'R.  Anything seems to be possible.<br /><br />Do your worst.  It can't be worse than mine.<br /><br />RabidWombat</p><p><b>Raserei says:</b> Or not<br /><br /><br /> </p>


created: 2001-11-21 13:32:09
subject: Taimandred debate settled at last
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<p>First off I would like to apologize for most of my previous theories. I know they were horrible. But now it's time for my latest theory that finally makes sense. DEMANDRED IS NOT MAZRIM TAIM and here is proof. This debate is settled at last.<br /><br />1. Demandred hated being subordinate to LTT therefore probably wouldn't do so w/ Rand<br /><br />2. In Winter's Heart we saw Kisman (or maybe it was Rochaid, I forget...) remembering his seperate orders from Taim and then Demandred. The orders were similar however, and I can hear everyone saying,&quot;...wow....a Forsaken that could change his appearance...now THAT'S never happened before...&quot;<br />So this point could go either way.<br /><br />3. THIS IS THE BIG ONE FOLKS. Follow with me. In Ch.35 of WH &quot;With the Choedan Kal&quot;, when Rand and the others are attempting to cleanse Saidin and RJ is flying through POVs like mad, we come upon Demandred's little cameo. As he is trudging through the forest muttering to himself about how he was better than Lews Therin, he sees a group of people walking. He wasn't sure he wanted to use the power to kill them for fear of attracting attention, but he was ready to.<br /> <br /><blockquote>a. The old man that Demandred saw was Damer Flinn, a FULL Asha'man walking with some Aes Sedai.</blockquote><br /><br /><blockquote>b. With Saidin enhanced vision, he would have been able to see the faces clearly, YET HE DID NOT RECOGNIZE HIM AT ALL!!!! Had Taim been Demandred, surely he would have known Flinn on sight. After all Flinn has been around awhile. Demandred was 'poleaxed' when he realized that &quot;that tottering old man was an Asha'man...&quot;</blockquote><br /><br />4. (My opinion) Personally I think it would be kind of funny if after all the debate about Taim being Demandred if he turned out to be just another Darkfriend. (Taim muttering to himself) &quot;...ouch..that hurts...*sniff sniff&quot; Okay so more than likely he'd be puffed up if he knew how many people, including me for a while, had thought he was Demandred and he'll probably lead the Dreadlords to Tarmon Gai'don but I'd still laugh...Well, what do you think? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/hopper.gif" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/cool.gif" border="0" /></p><p><b>Raserei says:</b> AMEN!<br /><br />yet it's not very definitive, though, with #2 being playable for boths sides, and including your opinion...<br /><br />But i totally agree.  I <i>never</i> thought Taim was Demandred.<br /><br /><br /> </p>


created: 2001-11-25 18:51:25
subject: Fairy lore, the Tower, and Snakes/Foxes
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<p>This may already be known (or posted), but I did not find it in the theory post; so here it is.  I just wanted to point out more mythological parallels found in the WOT.<br /><br />In faery lore, or fairy lore, we are told that the fairy people are called by two names:  the Alfheim, or the Elphame.  It is believed that they struck a bargain with the mortals who invaded their land and they removed themselves from the land and now reside in their own realm.  The land they live in, as well as the people themselves are referred to as the Finn.  Fairies are said to often communicate in riddles.  They love the color green and the color red.  <br /><br />It is also known that Fairies can trap you in their world and that time moves differently in their world than in ours.  If someone stays in Finnland for a year, their mortal world will have passed 100 years or more.  One can enter fairyland, or the land of the Finn two ways:  by gateway, or by entering the 'raft'.  <br />Fairy gates move constantly and rarely stay in the same place for long.  Once inside the gate, you are usually met by a member of the kingdom and given the chance to ask 3 questions, or have a wish be granted.  Usually there is a price of some type attached.<br /><br />A fairy raft or mound is usually on a hill, and one cannot see the entrance.  The first step is to find the entrance.  <br />To enter a raft, or the fairy realm, one must walk around the hill 3 times counter-clockwise before the entrance appears.  However, since you are an intruder, you must be prepared.  <br /><br />It is a common belief that iron repels the Finn, and that by leaving a knife in the doorway, it will leave the doorway open for you to exit back through.  In order to make it to the center, where the king or queen resides, one must be strong of heart (must have courage), and not waver from your task since the (fairy) people will try to confuse you.  However, fairies are drawn to music, and if you have a harp or a pipe, you may oftentimes pass through to the center unencumbered. <br /><br />Sound a little familiar?  In WOT, we have the Aelfinn and the Eelfinn, who live in a different realm.  One can gain access by the doorways (gateways) which can be and have been moved around.  There, a price must be paid, questions are answered, and wishes are granted. Also, we have a clue as to how to 'outwit' them in the childhood riddle for the game Snakes and Foxes.  If one enters the tower, they must be able to conquer by having iron, fire, and music, as well as courage.  Since no entrance is visible to the tower (similar to a fairy hill), then one must use some type of magic (power) to get in.<br /><br />There are plenty of parallels that RJ uses in his writings, and this is just one of them.  I found a few more, and I might post those later.  Shred away!!<br /></p><p><b>Burr says:</b> No shredding here.  It's interesting how very parallel this is.  On the other hand, I can't imagine how Mat would think on his own to open the tower by walking around it three times.  But maybe Birghette or Noal can tell him that much.<br /><br /><br /> </p>


created: 2001-11-26 05:04:34
subject: Gunpowder: Effects
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<p>This theory is not so much about science, but the effects of science. Mat is going to discover gunpowder. This is a more or less accepted fact. I think that it will be instrumental in turning the tide in one battle or another; that, however is not what this theory is about. What this theory is about is what happens after.<br /><br />First, a short history lesion. In our world, up until the mass-production of cannon and particularly rifles, there was almost no such thing as civilian casualties. The storybook image of the two armies lining up for battle was a reality. Professional soldiers fought all the wars and the sole use of conscription was to make your army look larger or provide some cannon fodder for the enemy to wade through. Most countries kept a very small standing army because there would be weeks or months of warning before any attack, and they just hired mercenaries when they were needed. The main reason for all this was that it takes real training to use a sword. If you just grab some peasant off the farm, stick a sharp object in his hand and send him off to war, he will die without making any real contribution. To get the necessary skill with a sword, you had to practice so much, you had few other skills useful outside battle, Thus the small standing army and the mercenaries. Who is going to pay, feed and house a bunch of people for years, when they are more or less useless unless you are attacked? And times you are attacked, the modes of transportation are so slow; you know with more that enough time to hire mercenaries.<br /><br />Gunpowder changed that. You see, it is entirely possible to grab some peasant off the farm, stick a gun in his hand, send him off to war and have him hide behind a trench or group of pike men and kill a lot of enemy, with little or no training required.<br /><br />Now on to how this applies to WoT (for those of you who have not already seen the direction this is going). What is the point of a huge, expensive, standing army of blademasters who cost you lots of money and return little outside battle (mind you, there is far more need of armies in WoT then there was in the real world), when you can stick guns in the hands of peasants with a weeks training and be more effective? Why spend years training archers when those same peasants can do the same job?<br /><br />This is why there will be a huge push against gunpowder in WoT. Mat will discover gunpowder, everyone will sing his praises and then everyone from Lan to the Aes Sedai will realize what the illuminators have know for years. It will become a major point of contention between the characters, with Rand stuck right in the middle, on one side recognizing how firearms with destroy large parts of society and end a way of life that is a part of him (his sword fighting), on the other, he will be able to see how it would be able to help him in the last battle.<br /><br />I realize that this is perhaps not a full theory and it needs more filling out, but this is as far as I can take it before book 10 (or whenever firearms and actually discovered). Hope it opens up some new lines of thought.<br /><br />P.S. gunpowder combined with some of the things the Rand's schools have been working on (electricity, advanced mechanics/clockwork) these is everything available to quickly advance to what we consider modern artillery.<br /></p><p><b>Raserei says:</b> It certainly gives consideration to what might go on were the effects of gunpowder be enabled.<br /><br />Of course, they might have more sense and see this for what it is, have the scope to look ahead and see what it will cause.  A real life correlation to this might be the use and ban of the atom bomb.<br /><br />For some odd reason, this reminded me of merenge spice from <i>Dune</i>. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/tongue.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /> </p>


created: 2001-11-26 05:14:26
subject: Tel'aran'RAND Continued
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<p>This is a continuation of the Tel'aran'RAND theory posted by Logain 4 his own Series.  His theory states that Rand will die before the last battle but everyone else will go and fight it anyway.  Mat will blow the Horn and Rand will come back with the rest of the heroes to save the day.  The major problem with this theory was that the Heroes of the Horn do not shed blood.  They are not really there in the flesh as is shown in the quote by Birgitte in tSR  &quot;As for Falme, the Horn had called us; we were not there as you were, in the flesh. That is why the Power could not touch us.&quot;<br /><br />This theory, however gave me inspiration.  What if Rand in his present state just cannot defeat the Dark One.  It may not be a humanly possible thing to do.  In fact, it may take someone who is immune to the Power, and more or less invincible.  Rand will die on the slopes of SG.  There will be blood everywhere (and that is one major prophecy fulfilled)!!!  Then Mat blows the horn and here comes Rand, inaccessible to the Dark One because he is not really dead, and invincible to almost everything that could be thrown at him, possibly including BF.<br /><br />So there is my theory.  Personally, that would even be a suitably dramatic way to end the series.</p><p><b>Raserei says:</b> Interesting.<br /><br />Though I don't think that the Heroes would be totally immune to the OP.  if they are, would TP be a factor at all?<br /><br /><br /> </p>


created: 2001-11-26 15:20:52
subject: the Two Dragons
body:
<p>This theory is one that I have refined over many dozens of readings of the Wheel of Time books; it will cover many different points, all of which are connected to the central argument and as such will probably end up being obscenely long but please bear with me as its one I&#8217;ve worked on long and hard. It concerns the relationship between Rand al&#8217;Thor and Lews Therin Telamon, and their possible fate.<br /><br />I&#8217;ll begin with the character who prompted me to write; the Slayer. Now, what do we know about the Slayer? We know that he is a darkfriend, or possibly a dreadlord as no-one else outside of Forsaken ranks has been seen to command Shadowspawn in battle, we know that he is a dreamwalker, we know he smells &#8220;inhuman&#8221; to a wolfbrother and we know some part of the reason for this: that his body is that of Rand&#8217;s uncle Luc Mantear while his &#8220;soul&#8221; is split, merged, shared between Luc&#8217;s and the soul of Lan&#8217;s cousin Isam. We also know from his/their POV in Winter&#8217;s Heart that the Slayer is half-mad and all over nasty. But I do not believe that the Slayer&#8217;s role in the greater storyline is as simple as that of a villain. After all, he is Rand&#8217;s only surviving blood relative bar Galad; can it really be believed he has no more significant part to play than that of a minor villain introduced half way through the series and barely seen since? I believe that the Slayer is much more important than is first apparent; in fact I am almost 100% sure that the relationship between Luc and Isam is the exact same as the relationship between Rand and Lews Therin, but that the Slayer is at a much more advanced stage than the Dragon. In other words, I fear that Rand will end up merged with Lews Therin as Luc and Isam are if he is not separated from LTT somehow; and soon, as he already seems to be losing some of his humanity. <br /><br />Still with me? I know this theory is not a common one but please hear me out, as I have quite a bit of evidence to back it up. The key to all of this is Tel&#8217;aran&#8217;rhiod, I think, the dreamworld/afterlife where the souls of the Heroes wait for rebirth and the only place where we have seen Isam appear as himself. (You will recall from TSR, and specifically WH 22, Out of Thin Air, that Luc&#8217;s body has never been seen to shift into that of Isam&#8217;s in the corporeal plane, that only happens when they are inside the dreamworld.) In the Westlands as we know them, the Aiel Wise Ones are the only real authority on TAR, but there are others who surely know more than they; the Forsaken, Lews Therin himself and Birgitte Silverbow come to mind. In TSR 28: To the Tower of Ghenjei Birgitte coments to Perrin that &#8220;This Slayer is not old, archer, but his evil is ancient.&#8221; From that it can be taken as certainty that possessions like this one have happened in the past, but the Wise Ones and their taboos do provide a more useful insight. In LOC 32: Summoned in Haste the Salidar rebels demand that Egwene comes to them by traveling through TAR in the flesh, the Wise Ones do not prevent this, and from that I get the impression they are not exactly sure why it is forbidden, but suspicions are raised when Amys says that &#8220;It was used for evil, it is evil, and whoever does it loses a part of themselves.&#8221; This is far from the only time that the danger of losing a part of yourself by entering TAR physically is warned of...and we know that Rand does all of his dreamwalking in the flesh. So then my theory is this: could Rand&#8217;s entering TAR in the flesh have left him vulnerable to a merging of sorts with Lews Therin? Who by the evidence of the Heroes and Ishamael&#8217;s beliefs, exists in TAR between being spun out to battle the Shadow and serve the pattern. I&#8217;ll come back to this later, first let me wrap up the Slayer section; the question I anticipate now is &#8220;how did Luc and Isam form the same relationship then?&#8221; Unfortunately I cant come up with an answer that I like but RJ is quoted in the old FAQ as saying that &#8220;Slayer can&#8217;t channel...he has certain gifts granted to him by the Dark One but can&#8217;t channel either the One Power or the True Power.&#8221; So that possibility is blown out of the water, even if he was a dreamwalker he could not have entered TAR physically without the Power. Nevertheless they are in TAR physically according to Hopper, so it must be assumed that this was one of the nefarious &#8220;gifts&#8221; granted to the Slayer by the Dark One. But why? That Isam does not exist outside of TAR could almost indicate that he truly is dead, and is haunting Luc through the Lord of the Grave&#8217;s actions. Could that be the gift? Its a rather macabre one for Luc to ask, if ask he did. If not that, then Isam must have been the one granted the gift, and before he met Luc, so that he could use it to merge with Luc in the way that he has. Personally, I suspect that Isam is already dead, and has been for some time, but that he first haunted and then took over Luc, just as LTT is threatening to do with Rand. <br /><br />We know that it was the Aes Sedai, Gitara Moroso, who sent Luc to his fate...and to Isam, just as she did Rand&#8217;s mother Tigraine. The Dark Prophecy that Verin discovered in the Great Hunt 7: Blood calls Blood goes like this:<br /><br />                &#8220;Luc came to the Mountains of Dhoom.<br />                 Isam waited in the high passes.<br />                 The Hunt is now begun. <br />                 The Shadows hounds now course, and kill.<br />                 One did live, and one did die, but both are. <br />The Time of Change has come...&#8221;<br /><br />The most interesting part of that for me is the final line &#8220;the Time of Change has come&#8221;, this phrase repeated in connection to Luc and Isam&#8217;s fate[s] suggests that their fate is a very significant one indeed. Futhermore we have Gitara Sedai&#8217;s Foretellings as related by Lady Dyelin; in LOC 16: Tellings of the Wheel, she is paraphrased as saying that Luc would &#8220;find his fame in the Blight, or his fate...that he would find the Dragon Reborn there, or that the Last Battle depended on him going.&#8221; All we know of Luc finding in the Blight was Isam and so these foretellings draw yet more connections between the Slayer and the Dragon, and give a definite hint that he is alot more important to the overall scheme than is readily apparent; so what of the other prophecies? Will the Slayer encounter Rand in the Blight at some point? The quotes are old ones born of gossip so perhaps they are inaccurate; the Last Battle could depend on Luc&#8217;s fate because it is a warning to the Dragon Reborn. Whatever the final truths behind the Slayer are revealed to be I am certain that if and when he encounters Rand, the LTT problem will be shown in a new light...but one that births many a shadow of its own.<br /><br />So I come at last to Rand al&#8217;Thor and his unwanted companion in misery Lews Therin Telamon. Looking back over what I&#8217;ve written already makes me fear that this theory will prove to be too long for easy reading but I&#8217;ve always wanted to get all my thoughts down on paper, otherwise I wont be able to ask for any credit if I&#8217;m proven right. So then, let me make it clear firstly that I have never for one minute admitted the possibility that my favorite character, Rand, is actually insane. The disturbing behavior that he has shown in recent books can all be explained by the stress and pain that he has had to endure, the suspicion is simply explained also: technically it isn&#8217;t paranoia when everyone really is out to get you!<br /><br />Perhaps its a sign of my own bias that I read about Rand hearing voices in his head and believe straightaway that the voice is really Lews Therin Telamon&#8217;s rather than a sign of madness but even after his Callandor episode in TPOD I still believed firmly that Lews Therin was real. I&#8217;ve established the connection that I think exists between the Slayer and the Dragon Reborn; that Rand and Lews Therin inhabit the same basic space but in different planes of existence, Rand in the &#8220;real&#8221; world and Lews Therin in Tel&#8217;aran&#8217;rhiod. The questions I must now try to answer are: how exactly did it happen, when and why? There are other possibilities I have entertained for &#8220;how?&#8221; beside the TAR in the flesh explanation but they&#8217;re all quite shaky. Perhaps his being born on Lews Therin&#8217;s tombstone (Dragonmount) was enough to do it . . . but for that there is no evidence for and one big piece of evidence against: Lews Therin does not become a factor in Rand&#8217;s life until he is well past twenty years old. Or perhaps his drinking from the Eye of the World was fated because he would also absorb Lews Therin&#8217;s essence (I&#8217;ve never understood what the Eye was for besides being something Rand could smack Ba&#8217;alzamon with) but for that I cannot come up with any evidence at all. Or perhaps Rand is simply LTT reincarnated in the way that all the Heroes are; this is supported by Hawkwing&#8217;s assertion in TGH 47: The Grave Is No Bar To My Call that &#8220;I know you, even if you do not know yourself.&#8221; That statement is the one that threatens my belief in this theory most of all, Hawkwing should surely have been able to tell if Rand was not, in fact, LTT reincarnated, shouldn&#8217;t he? But I explain it by telling myself that Artur was not employing some form of magical insight and was only seeing similarities between Rand&#8217;s character and Lews Therin&#8217;s in the way that Ishamael and Lanfear have always done. The east was assumption on his part. For the purpose of my essay, though, these other notions can be ignored. I now believe firmly in the TAR theory, that Rand&#8217;s entering it in the flesh despite being a dreamwalker in his own right was fated by the pattern because it would begin the Rebirth of the Dragon. But when did this occur? <br /><br />The first time that Rand ever entered TAR physically was during his final battle with Ba&#8217;alzamon in TDR 55: What is Written in Prophecy. Ba&#8217;alzamon proclaims that he will not be refused a third time by Rand, threatens that he will &#8220;...take your soul&#8221; and strikes. Rand feels him &#8220;...tearing something loose, trying to pull a part of him away&#8221; and draws Callandor, seeing this Ba&#8217;alzamon runs into TAR and Rand duplicates the weave to follow him. In the next book comes the first instance where Lews Therin makes an appearance, albeit a vague one; in TSR 9: Decisions Rand encounters Lanfear who says that Lews Therin loved her, Rand is then shocked to hear himself reply &#8220;And you loved power!&#8221; These quotes and events may not have meant all that much at first reading but after I developed my Slayer theory they started to look very significant indeed. Much more readily significant were the events of TFOH 55: The Threads Burn. Once more Rand chases the Forsaken into TAR; he is affected much more this time though, even forgetting his own name for a time. Now, it comes to pass that Rand channels balefire inside TAR and seems to cause temporary damage to the dreamworld itself, he also thinks to himself that the balefire &#8220;...somehow chased Lews Therin away&#8221;. Incidentally this has led me to suspect that it was LTT who killed Asmodean, momentarily leaving TAR for the real world due to that damage but that has nothing to do with this theory, I&#8217;m just in an opinionated mood. What I do want to draw your attention to in this scene is when Rahvin tries to use TAR against Rand. During that incident Lews Therin actually appears before him as &#8220;a tall, dark-eyed man with a worry-creased face and more white in his hair than brown.&#8221; They both fight back against Rahvin&#8217;s will and start to merge together somehow, Rand&#8217;s hand begins to fade and Lews Therin&#8217;s takes its place. Rand wins the struggle though and then muses to himself: &#8220;Why had Lews Therin tried to take him over?...Because he could in this place, wherever it was?&#8221;. This is strong positive evidence for my theory. I suspect that the battle with Ba&#8217;alzamon was the beginning of  Rand&#8217;s problems with Lews Therin, a problem that has been steadily worsening as seen by the humming and ear-tugging habits LTT had that Rand now has, and a problem he will only come to understand when he encounters his fallen uncle, Luc, and learns from his fate. Which leaves me to wonder at my final and most significant question: why is this happening? <br /><br />I go so far as to connect it with the meaning of the term &#8220;the Dragon Reborn&#8221;. It would seem logical that there can be only one true Dragon Reborn but if Rand and Lews Therin are indeed separate entities then one of them must stand aside, or perhaps one must live and one must die (paraphrase Dark Prophecy). So the question that must be answered at, before or after Tarmon Gaidon is &#8220;which one is the true Dragon Reborn?&#8221; Rand himself complains at one point that everybody calls him the Dragon Reborn but none of them actually sit down and wonder what the name means. It seems to me that either Lews Therin will use Rand&#8217;s body as his host to fight Tarmon Gaidon and in doing so prove himself the Age of Legends Dragon come again, or Rand will somehow temper Lews Therin&#8217;s influence over him and fight Tarmon Gaidon himself thereby becoming the Dragon Reborn in truth as well as name. What I mean by that is that he will become an entirely new Dragon, or Coramoor, for a new Age. A Dragon Reborn as in Renewed rather than Reincarnated. I would guess that, after a meeting face to face with Rand, Lews Therin would prove to be either unwilling or incapable of continuing to fight the Shadow, perhaps he is simply too weary after all his tragedies and wants to retire, or perhaps if Elayne really is Ilyena Sunhair reincarnated the sight of her in some peril will be more than old Lews can suffer, though his lack of reaction to her in WH makes me doubt that old theory. Afterwards Rand would likely become bound to the Wheel of Time in Lews Therin&#8217;s place and probably with Min, Elayne and Aviendha linked to his recuring fate; I recall a viewing of Min&#8217;s that said that &#8220;three women would fall hopelessly in love with him and be tied to him for all eternity&#8221; but I couldn&#8217;t find the exact quote. Unless I&#8217;m confusing myself then this indicates a Birgitte/Gaidal Cain style romance. Alternatively there may not be a choice to be made at all and Rand/LTT could be fated to merge together just as Min foresaw in ACOS 33: A Bath, but I lean toward only one of them surviving as the Dragon.<br /><br />But how would this theoretical future come about and why should it? Well I cannot decide for certain what I think will end up happening due to the tricky nature of RJ&#8217;s prophecies but I will attempt to provide more evidence. For one thing theres the oft repeated stansa:<br /> <br />&#8220;twice and twice shall he be marked, twice to live and twice to die,once the heron to set his path, twice the heron to name him true,once the Dragon for remembrance lost, twice the Dragon for the price he must pay&#8221;<br /><br />Now we all saw this prophecy fulfilled and know the meanings of each part but I wonder if it doesn&#8217;t have a double meaning, the two Dragon&#8217;s and two herons could well be symbolic of Rand and Lews Therin; both Dragons and both blademasters but which description applies to who? LTT would supply an abundance of &#8220;remembrance lost&#8221; which would mean that Rand has a &#8220;price he must pay&#8221;, quite likely that he will have to sacrifice his own existence to let Lews Therin fight the Dark One. On the other hand, so to speak, we have &#8220;to name him true&#8221; paired with the &#8220;price&#8221; which could indicate that Rand is the true Dragon Reborn. That the &#8220;to set his path&#8221; heron was acquired on the other side of a Portal Stone may or may not be significant as well though I cant see how. All of this is inconclusive in itself but I see a connection with the severed hand prophecies. In TEOTW 15: Strangers and Friends Min sees &#8220;a bloody hand and a white hot iron&#8221; around Rand, and in TGH 24: New Friends and Old Enemies she sees, around Elayne: &#8220;a severed hand, not hers, a red-hot iron and an axe&#8221;. These &#8220;severed hand&#8221; images are likely symbolic of the choice that has to be made between the two Dragons and provide more weight for Elayne having a significant role to play in it. Another interesting prophecy can be tied into all this, namely Elaida&#8217;s first Foretelling from TSR 1: Seeds of Shadow that &#8220;the royal line of Andor would be the key to defeating the Dark One in the Last Battle&#8221;. Elaida&#8217;s assumption that Elayne is that key would seem foolish in the face of Rand&#8217;s parentage but she might be correct and Elayne, like Luc, might well have a central role to play in the choice to be made. <br /><br />Someone who I suspect of also having a significant role to play in this double Dragon dilemma is Verin Mathwin, our mysterious Brown sister. What do we know of Verin then? We know she is very experienced even by AS standards and has been working on a personal project for quite some time-one born out of &#8220;curiosity&#8221; on her part. We know she discovered the Dark Prophecy in TGH. We know she was quick to realise that Rand was the Dragon Reborn, whether from simply reasoning it out or because she was one of those like Cadsuane who suspected since the Battle of the Shining Walls that the &#8220;Time of Change&#8221; had come. We know from TDR 22: A World of Dreams that she discovered the last Aes Sedai Dreamer&#8217;s notes and made a study of them, she thinks to herself after pushing Egwene into becoming a Dreamer that &#8220;she had considered burning the manuscript, just as she had considered giving it to Egwene. But destroying knowledge...was anathema to her.&#8221; And concludes that, &#8220;it is best by far to leave things as they are. What will happen, will happen&#8221;. This foreshadows an important plotline involving tel&#8217;aran&#8217;rhiod and Verin. We know that she is aware of the Slayer&#8217;s true identity and allegience and that she makes no attempt to stop him, even leaving Perrin in mortal peril. This for me says that she is either a darkfriend or she believes that Luc is too important to kill, so important in fact that she would risk letting him kill one of the three ta&#8217;veren. And since I&#8217;m almost certain she&#8217;s not a Darkfriend, that means Luc is pretty damned important in her eyes. She comments in TSR 56: Goldeneyes that it is &#8220;interesting&#8221; when the Trollocs shout &#8220;ISAM&#8221; and notes it in her book. In TPOD prologue: Deceptive Appearances she is revealed as having concluded, &#8220;Somehow, she had to keep young Rand alive until it was time for him to die.&#8221; All in all I think this indicates that Verin is aware of at least some of what Rand is going through, aware of the Slayer&#8217;s importance to him and that she is in favor of Lews Therin as the Dragon Reborn. But what are her motives? Perhaps she is Black Ajah as many suspect, or perhaps she is simply trying to serve the cause of the Light in what she thinks is the best way- by working to see that it is Lews Therin Telamon, the leader of the AOL Aes Sedai who faces the Shadow; he would seem to stand the best chance. But I suspect a different motivation for Verin, I suspect that she hopes to make certain that Rand&#8217;s soul is submerged by Lews Therin&#8217;s so that she can gain access to the knowledge of the man who stood first amongst the Servants. She is after all Brown Ajah and has demonstrated her ruthless nature on several occasions. She has also mused to herself in LOC 11: Lessons and Teachers along these lines: &#8220;How many would it take to shield and hold him? . . . that was speculation for another day.&#8221; And furthermore, in WH 35: With the Choedan Kal, Verin thinks to herself that a captured Forsaken would prove most useful; now there are many possible reasons for this conclusion, she could simply want to use them to learn some new weaves, but she could also have wanted to use their knowledge of Lews Therin to test Rand&#8217;s. One last piece of evidence now; in the old FAQ section on Verin, RJ is asked about the possible stedding chanelling incident and denied that it was a mistake on his part; quote: &#8220;we&#8217;re going to find out something in the next few books about people with no souls and characteristics of them.&#8221; He is then said to have &#8220;...started out saying something about Verin, then stopped.&#8221; Clammed up with Moiraine-like mystery it seems to me! Nevertheless that quote raised my eyebrows. That people with no souls feel cold to the touch seems evident now; what odds will I get that someone will soon be commenting on Rand feeling exactly so?<br /><br />In summary: I believe that the relationship between Rand/LTT is the same as that between Luc/Isam and the Verin has known about it all along. I believe that the story of The Wheel Of Time cannot be resolved without a choice being made between these two men and that whoever wins out in their struggle will fight Tarmon Gaidon as the one true Dragon Reborn.</p><p><b>Burr says:</b> M-hmmm. . . .<br />Good work.<br /><br /><br /> </p>


created: 2001-11-28 14:02:41
subject: The Shadow and the Pattern
body:
<p>Why were the Choedan Kal going to be used not to seal the prison, but only to shield it, and why was it considered dangerous to place the seals on the Bore?<br /><br />Well, with the Bore there is no point of reference to which one can 'look'. This raises the question of how the Aes Sedai could lock onto the thinness in the Pattern when there is nothing to lock on to. However, it could have locked onto something in a different way. Some models of atoms have electrons not as particles but simply as energy levels. A weakness in the energy field would not have a location. But it could still be detected. (I'm really unsure as to this electron-thing, since I don't understand physics very well; if you have anything to correct me on, please do).<br /><br />This would *seem* to point to the Aes Sedai using some sort of scientific, non-Power energy/force to open the prison. But, recall 'With the Choedan Kal'. Rand says that what he is doing cannot actually be described in visual terms, but rather as impressions. Therefore the Aes Sedai using the One Power to open the prison would be possible, since it doesn't have to use the One Power on a thing that can be 'seen', but rather only felt or detected.<br /><br />However, how can one move a taint on something that has no actual point of reference that can be detected either visually or in a visual model?<br /><br />The Bore has no location. So how can one 'feel' the Bore more clearly at Shayol Ghul? And how did the 'shadow-light fire' that destroyed the Sharom and cover the skies manifest in a specific location?<br />This has to do with how much of the True Power can incarnate inside of the Pattern. The Aes Sedai ripped at a point in the Pattern where the True Power was trying to manifest itself inside of the Pattern/tear through it, thus making the Pattern thinner. The physical location of Shayol Ghul is not where the Bore 'is' per se, as has been stated, but then how is it that the Bore's existence does not allow Shai'tan to envelope the entire world at once in its power? Here is my explanation.<br /><br />Shayol Ghul is the point where the Dark One is capable of emanating the True Power the strongest, sort of like channeling. The One Power and the ability to channel have no visual point of reference; one can only feel them. But still, one has to be in a specific location to feel the ability in a person (Nynaeve of course went into great detail with this while trying to Heal stilling). As the Bore 'widens', more of the True Power can be channeled into the Pattern. The only way for the Bore to truly be large enough to permit the Dark One to 'enter' the Pattern would be for the Bore to encompass the entire Pattern in some way, such as perpetuating itself throughout the Pattern. Thus, while this is the ultimate goal of Shai'tan (remaking the Pattern so it can truly 'enter' it), its current goal is to manipulate the Pattern as much as possible, ideally by expanding chaos and increasing the use of the True Power, which both are ideally combined as using the True Power to increase chaos. This may be the purpose of Moridin at this point. <br /><br />(Furthermore, the True Power seems tremendously destructive. Consider the Watcher's reference to reality screaming and the metal that Moridin was holding. Perhaps it has some inherent pure destructive quality that also enhances its Pattern-rending ability?)<br /><br />Furthermore, the taint on saidin was used dually to weaken the Pattern's driving power as well as to induce mass chaos. Why else would the Dark One consider preventing the cleansing of saidin something more important than keeping the Lord of Chaos, Rand, alive? Rand was the Lord of Chaos because he would likely go insane, and thus the Dragon's eternal threat to the Dark One would be nullified and in turn the Dark One would gain the chaos needed to weaken the Pattern. Saidin being cleansed would diminish all of these things for Shai'tan, so why not simply kill Rand and wait for the next time the Dragon is reborn to see if the Lord of Chaos can rule the way Shai'tan likes?<br /><br />Now, back to the Choedan Kal and the seals. Both involved in some way shielding the world from the Dark One. The reason why the use of the Choedan Kal was intended for simply shielding the world and not for remaking the prison is because, without some method of detecting the True Power and thus the thinness, finding the Bore exactly would be impossible, and only those who channel the True Power know that they are channeling it. That is also why it was considered dangerous to use seals of the One Power; with only a small idea of 'where' the Bore 'was', trying to seal it with the One Power might indeed aggravate the situation.<br /><br />The Collam Daan must have contained some technology that could detect the True Power, and the thinness, precisely, and thus I believe that was the intent of the people who supported using the Choedan Kal- to shield the world as best as possible while building a new device to find the Bore so that they could use the One Power safely to reseal the prison (because rather than just haphazardly tossing energy around, possibly tearing more at the Pattern near the Bore, they could affect only the tear in the Pattern). The seals were to be used without knowing how to find the Bore as exactly as was needed (possibly the only reference of where the Bore was would be the fact that the True Power could be sensed there), thus we have the danger.<br /><br />Furthermore, we have seen that the cuendillar seals were wholly ineffective in stemming the Dark One's influence on the world. Ishamael evidently still could channel the True Power, the Dark One managed to taint saidin, and other things. WARNING- What follows is something I do not consider well-supported, but simply likely relative to the rest of this post. The seals would be weakening and breaking because their very existence is tied precariously to the Pattern. The induction of mass chaos and more channeling of the True Power weaken the Pattern and thus the seals. The taint on saidin also weakened the seals because it weakened the Pattern. I think it may be that the seals are breaking as though a gateway were being cut through them, which according to my theory is, in a way, happening- the Bore is ripping through their very existence.<br /><br />So, does it matter if the seals all break? In a way it does, but mainly in a symbolic manner. The Dark One will still have a long way to go before being able to fully emerge into the Pattern. As we have seen, though, even as 'small' as the Bore was at its height during the Collapse, it was able to cause just that, a Collapse. Perhaps it was the mental weakness (?) of people who lived in a world where there was little violence that permitted the Collapse. This would enrage the Dark One in relation to the current world, where its plans of chaos have strengthened the people to where its attempts to make them more violent will be ineffective (unless Mesaana starts up those schools again!). Perhaps the level of violence is enough for Shai'tan, though...<br /><br />In the future books, I think we may see Moridin wondering how to enlarge the Bore once it is fully unsealed, or Shaidar Haran explaining the nature of the True Power more fully to those he speaks to, or maybe even Moridin doing this. Even with saidin cleansed, chaos is still massing, even moreso now. And the use of the True Power may increase, starting with Moridin (and hypothetically Shaidar Haran, since those flames of his seem to be related to the fire that destroyed the Sharom), and maybe others, perhaps even Mesaana in an effort to hide herself from the Aes Sedai so she can hold on to her position in the White Tower!<br /><br />There is a lot more possible for the future relating to these forces, but I think it will take a lot, lot more than just breaking the seals and channeling with the Choedan Kal to save the world. It may take something we don't know of yet, or something we know of but do not fully understand.</p><p><b>Vercingetorix says:</b> Your mom.<br /><br /><br /><br />I mean, hmmm, that's an interesting theory.<br /><br /><br /> </p>


created: 2001-11-30 16:05:06
subject: The eye of the world and the cleansing of saidin...
body:
<p>I have read most of the theories up on this site and I have not seen this posted yet.  <br /><br />I believe Rand got his inspiration on how to clean <i>saidin</i> from the Eye of the World.  He had to wonder how they managed to cleanse it, why were women needed, and why the procedure resulted in their deaths.<br /><br />I think the reason they died is because they had no where to deposit the taint that they removed from <i>saidin</i> so they absorbed it themselves.  Rand used Shadar Logoth as a place to deposit the taint that was removed from <i>saidin</i>.<br /><br /><i>Saidar</i> was used to make a filter of sorts that <i>saidin</i> was channeled through.  Thats why it required both parts of the power to both create the Eye of the World and to cleanse <i>saidin</i>.<br /><br />Just thought it was an interesting point and if it has already been posted I apologize, like I said I've read most but not all of the theory posts.</p><p><b>Raserei says:</b> Well, I certainly have never seen the like about here.  I've seen it discussed, and it very well may be that what yopu are talking about is what has been discussed.  So, if you get flamed, don't blame me.  I'm not the most reliable of people to trust. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Anyway, I certainly liked this theory, and it explained the funneling and such at the end of <i>Winters Heart</i> a lot better than what I thought it to be.<br /><br />NIcely done. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /> </p>


created: 2001-12-04 10:14:55
subject: How Mat will save the day...prophecies fulfilled
body:
<p>I was recently reading AshaShan's brilliant theory on Mat's relationship with Tuon and how it will affect the course of events. While it gave me good insight I have a slightly different take on what will transpire.<br /> <br />I believe that Tuon will meet with Egwene soon after Egwene takes control of the White Tower. Tuon will need to be convinced that Seanchan treatment of Aes Sedai is wrong. All the parts are there to do this. Eaginin and Bayle both have intricate knowledge of Aes Sedai, more specifically Elayne, Egwene, and Nynaeve. Couple this with the presence of the Suldam that are traveling with them and you can guess that things are going to get interesting. <br /> <br />I think Mat is going to go to Caemlyn to help Elayne once he collects the band. There has been an interesting interplay between Mat and Elayne since the beginning of the novel and I think Elayne's newfound admiration for her &quot;loyal subject&quot; is reciprocated. Mat wants to make sure she's ok because that is still his assigned task from Rand and you know how Mat's a stickler for duty! Red Hand trackers are probably keeping an eye on the news from Caemlyn because Talmanes knows Mat's interest in Elayne's well being.<br /> <br /> Now, Elayne serves two purposes here. First off, she's one of the Aes Sedai that Tuon will want to meet due to the information that she will learn on her journey to Caemlyn. Secondly, I believe that Elayne is one of the Aes Sedai that Mat will &quot;put on a balance scale&quot; as prophesized. <br /> <br />I believe that both Elayne and Egwene are of a similar frame of mind in regards to Rand. First off they both want to be independent from him even though they think they have his best interests at heart. Secondly, both Elayne and Egwene have been discussing the importance of Tower law and maintaining the Three Oaths. I believe that this will be a key in the prophecy of Egwene &quot;clawing at a wall of Ancient Aes Sedai symbols.&quot; The wording is not exact but I think this is going to be a major problem with Rand and a point of division amongst them. <br /> <br />Getting back on track. Once Mat has secured things with Elayne and she has in turn met Tuon, I think Elayne will rush them to Tar Valon to have immediate conference with the new Amryln Seat, Egwene! The conflicts in Caemlyn and Tar Valon will go on synchronously and will end in time for Mat to bring the two Aes Sedai &quot;on the balance scales&quot; together, the other being Egwene. Their friendship and similar thinking in addition to their two cities proximity to each other is symbolic enough to make this correlation.<br /> <br />Now, Tuon will meet with Egwene and they will hash out their differences thus solving Egwene's incesant hatred and fear of the Seanchan and assuaging Tuon's final doubts about channelers. This is well supported by the dream where Egwene &quot;sees a Hawk reaching toward her and her and the hawk were ties together.&quot; A compact will form and a plan of action will be established, without Rand of course. <br /> <br />Meanwhile Rand will have spent this time with his dad in the Two Rivers, learning how to laugh and cry and formulating a plan to wrap things up in the Westlands and prepare for the last battle. Whether or not he merges more with Lews Therin is not important at this point other than the fact that it will give him perspective. I think he will feel Elayne's need for him or Nynaeve will break the news about Tuon. Either way Rand will head to Tar Valon to meet with the ladies. <br /> <br />Arrival at this all-important conference fulfills two more prophecies for Rand. He will stand before &quot;Egwene, and the people around her, and one of them [will be] Seanchan.&quot; Also, he will &quot;know [Egwene's] wrath,&quot; as Elaida saw it because Egwene is now the Amyrln Seat. Egwene's pissed because he made Aes Sedai swear fealty and Rand will argue that Egwene did the same. She'll say it's different because she's a woman...you get the picture. Elayne will be no help because she'll side with the women. Nynaeve would more than likely side with Rand but she'll be off to fix the trouble in the borderlands with Lan, because they understand what needs to be done. <br /> <br />This will be the argument that keeps Rand from agreeing with the compact that the ladies have formed with Tuon. The compact with Tuon will be her agreement to go back to Seanchan and start to undermine the Empresses' authority and begin the reform of the laws against channelers. The books have often commented on how cutthroat the Seanchan nobility are so I think it fits perfectly. In turn Rand must go to her when she is coordinated and recognize her authority, or as prophecy says, &quot;to kneel to the crystal throne.&quot; Rand will of course refuse to do this and he will want to leave and prepare to turn the Seanchan back himself.     <br /> <br />After their disagreement Rand will ask Mat where he falls in this whole debate. I believe Mat will think that Tuon's deal is the right way to go and in turn Rand will feel &quot;betrayed.&quot; I know all don't agree on this whole Mat as betrayer thing but go with it as it pertains to this theory and you might be surprised. <br /> <br />Ok, so now Rand will go off to plan his attack and Mat will be left to weigh his monumental decision with the &quot;two Aes Sedai on the balancing scales&quot; I perceive the scales to be two Aes Sedai against an un-seen counterbalance. That is, Egwene and Elayne against his obligation to Rand. This is the monumental decision and it will lead to him giving up &quot;half the light of the world,&quot; but we will get to that. <br /> <br /> At this point Mat goes on some kind of vision quest, if you will, to figure out what the right decision is, Rand or the ladies. During his dilemma multiple things will happen in the storyline and among these I think will be the following:<br /><br />A. Rand's capture and leashing by the Seanchan, and <br />B. Moraine's rescue.  <br /><br />The male Adam has not survived and been speculated upon this much to not be used. It will be and Anath's (Semirhage&#8217;s) position with Tuon is too convenient for coincidence. I think that Tuon will bind Rand with it thinking it is the only way which she can control him (which it is) in order to fulfill the prophecy. <br /><br />I think that Elayne, Egwene and co. will go with it because they have already shown that they think Rand should be subordinate to a woman and the whole series reeks of this same message. The inequality of men and women is synonymous with &quot;good women's sense&quot; as they see it. The curing of Nynaeve from this state of mind, the staunchest supporter of this theory, is almost a foreshadowing as to its wrong-headedness.<br /> <br />Why is Moraine important? It is because she will have all this sage-like knowledge about events from being in Finnland so long. Mat has already been selected as a prime candidate to rescue her and I think he will learn that it is important for Rand to be subordinate to no one during his campaign against the shadow. Moraine's whole realization of this back at the beginning of the series was a very important lesson but she unfortunately disappeared and no one was able to learn this from her. <br /><br />   Now, when Moraine and Mat return and find out Rand has been captured they quickly try to formulate a plan of action that will release Rand. Mat's relationship with Tuon is perfect Moraine tell him, but Tuon is the &quot;light of his life,&quot; and he doesn't want to betray her. But their is no other way to go and Mat knows it now so he goes to Tuon and somehow manages to release Rand from his Adam. Rand must have the Seanchan as ally not enemy, so he does the only thing he can, he &quot;binds the nine moons to serve his will.&quot; I believe &quot;binding&quot; and the new form of &quot;bonding&quot; that the men have discovered are synonymous. Tuon will of course feel betrayed by her love and thus Mat has &quot;lost half the light of [his] world to save the world.&quot; This brings the &quot;south and the west&quot; together with the &quot;north and the east&quot; to join the land as one. Moraine will need to convince The Tower and co. to join with Rand and eventually they will. The Black tower will move in with the white and Mat will have saved the day again!!! Don't worry about Mat and Tuon's relationship. I believe Moraine's return will spark a revelation where characters finally begin to communicate and understand one another. Tuon will see the justification for Mat's actions and all will be well.</p><p><b>Burr says:</b> There's no way Egwene and Elayne are going to go with Rand being controlled by Tuon.  Elayne melts just thinking about him.  Egwene's main objective has been to get the Tower to accept Rand's freedom.  I don't think she'll give it up that easily, especially not for a Seanchan, not while she remembers what it was like to wear an adam.<br /><br /><br /> </p>


created: 2001-12-04 11:10:48
subject: Aram the Warder
body:
<p>Everyone knows that Aram, Perrin's nutty tinker friend, has got some dark times ahead. He is borderline psychotic: he has a face with almost no emotion and stands very still EXCEPT when he is in battle, where he laughs and smiles. Yet this wasn't always part of his personality, he used to be a pretty boy ladies man. It seems that his craziness is due mostly to his need for a purpose. He lost the way of the leaf and his family, and replaced it with Perrin and a Sword, as Elyas said, &quot;That's not enough for any man.&quot; But I don't think he is a Darkfriend. His loyalty to Perrin is fanatical, but I think it is sincere; and no evidence exists to show I'm wrong. He does have his uses though. He is almost a Blademaster after about a month of training, he is a hard worker and a devoted guardian of Faile, and I still believe that, deep down, he wants to do the right thing. He can't stay near Perrin though, because Min saw an Aura saying he put Perrin in danger. I think, of all the main characters, Perrin is the most likely to live through Tarmon Gai'don. So Aram can't stay near Perrin. Yet RJ has hinted at a mysterious past for Aram, so I think Aram will at least live long enough for us to learn more about him. So let me sum up my thoughts about Aram:<br /><br />-He is extremely skilled with a blade<br />-He is probably not a Darkfriend<br />-He loves battle<br />-He has great loyalty<br />-He makes a devoted guardian<br />-He has to leave his current master<br />-He is desperately in need of a cause<br />-He will probably live at least a little longer<br /><br />All these things point to one obvious solution: Aram will be bonded as a Warder. His skill in battle and devotion would make him perfect for it, and his need of a cause would make him willing to become one. I don't know yet who he will be bonded to: perhaps Mat's little sis (now that would be interesting) But that's more wishful thinking on my part than anything else.</p><p><b>Burr says:</b> That's an interesting idea; but to whom might Aram be bonded?  If Aram is fanatically loyal to Perrin, he wouldn't choose to leave him for an Aes Sedai.  Thus, if I had to choose someone in the area, I would say Galina.  Despite nominally being a Red Ajah member, she could certainly use a Warder at the moment.  She could force the bond on him, and then compell him to her will.  This would then truly put Perrin in danger of Aram.<br /><br /><br /> </p>


created: 2001-12-05 00:01:04
subject: Balefire: Fixing the Prison
body:
<p>I've been thinking about the Last Battle, and this kinda jumped at me, so please bear with me.<br /><br />Herid Fel says to Rand that the only way for him to win the Last Battle, would be to seal up the prison as good as the Creator did. (This is roughly what it says, i don't have the quote with me.)<br /><br />Now here's my theory on how to do this.  We know that Rand still has the male ter'angreal access key to the Choedan Kall.  We also know that balefire burns a thread from the pattern BEFORE the present time.<br />We also know that Lanfear is really Cyndane.<br /><br />So here's what I think Rand is going to do. During the last battle, surrounded by fire and danger, he takes the access key out of the saddlebags. He draws the power to the max, weaves balefire and blast's Cyndane (aka Lanfear).<br /><br />Since Lanfear is one of the two people who drilled the hole in the DO prison in the first place, and we know the Choedan Kal is the most powerful sa'angreal ever made, it is possible that the balefire Rand weave's is so powerful, that it burns Lanfear out of the pattern till before the whole was drilled. This prevents the whole from being drilled in the first place, which leaves it as good as the creator made it.</p><p><b>Raserei says:</b> ...and in the process totally unraveling the Pattern.<br /><br />No, seriously, if Rand did that a few things would happen.<br /><br />a.) he would cease to be, because if the bore wasn't drilled, LTT wouldn't have gone mad, and that whole thing snowballs.  Rand would be creating an entirely different history.<br /><br />2.) If Rand did that, removing that thread would be bad.  It's like the Ghostbuster's crossing of the streams.  Why dont they cross the streams?  &quot;It'd be very bad.&quot;<br /><br /><br /> </p>


created: 2001-12-05 00:52:55
subject: The Shadow's Champion
body:
<p>I can't remember exactly where in the books this is, but I remember it beeing stated (possibly multiple times), that if Rand continues to become harder and harder, his victory at Tarmon Gaidin would be just as bad as his defeat.  I also seem to remember that the Forsaken were were told by the Dark One not to kill Rand.  Moridin kept him from dying in Shadar Logoth and even Demandred and Sammael feared setting themselves in a one on one battle with Rand because they feared the Dark Ones displeasure if they killed him as much as being defeated themselves.  Demandred went as far as to tell the renegade Ashaman to kill Rand, but would not do so himself even though he believed himself to be superior to LTT. <br /><br />I've come to the conclusion that perhaps because the Dark One has seen that all attempts to turn Rand to the shadow have failed, he's decided on a different strategy, and told Moridin to implement it.  The new strategy is harden Rand to the point where he becomes the image of the shadow without ever yielding to it.  It was stated many times that the Dark One always sought to turn the Creator's champion into his own.  By driving him away from his friends, allowing him to trust no one, having him kill women, making him have to fight even those who would support him through subterfuge and misunderstanding, he is turning into exactly the man the shadow would have made him had he embraced it from the beginning.  I think that is part of what Moridin meant when he thought &quot;It's hard to lose a game when you play both sides of the board.&quot; If the world could be united under Rand, (with Moridin helping behind the scenes) but at the cost that Rand is no longer the good guy he once was, the shadow wins.  <br /></p><p><b>Raserei says:</b> Hmm, which is why Cadsuane is such a cool character!<br /><br />If this were to happen, then who exactly would be the Lights Champion?  Mat?  I fear for the souls of all of WoTworld.<br /><br /><br /> </p>


created: 2001-12-08 03:19:32
subject: Ajahs
body:
<p>Just a real obvious point to make just in case some missed it. Once the White tower is retaken by Egewne, the Red ajah will be abolished now that Saidin has been cleased...<br />I cant remember the exact words of Elaida's fotelling, but it said something along the line of &quot;the remanants (or opposition) to the Amyrlin will be cast out and scorned&quot;<br />Once the red ajah has been absolved, it might pave the way for men to become Aes Sedai again. As they were in the Age of Legends. They might possibly even swear the oaths...<br /></p><p><b>Roonas says:</b> I'd have to say that the first part was a  bit self-evident from Elaida's little prophecy ... but I do like your point about what that opens up in the future, with the men and women forming &quot;one hall&quot; of Aes Sedai again, along with the men possibly swearing the oaths ...<br /><br />Question is - Will we ever see Jordan mention the future in a sort of :How everything worked out finale' ...??? RAFO I guess! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /> </p>


created: 2001-12-13 13:36:29
subject: The good, the bad and Aram
body:
<p>Aram as a good guy?, Aram as a hero, savior or cheered warrior?  I don't buy any of it.  Without a doubt, I believe that Aram is wholeheartedly a Darkfriend, down to the core of his being.  There are two main reasons for this.  For one, he disliked Perrin when they first met, as he felt that there was competition between the two over Egwene in whom Aram thought had some type of relationship with Perrin, (when Perrin and Egwene were on the run and lost in the woods after the Shadar Logoth debacle in EoTW).  And secondly, remember in book 2 at the gathering at Shayol Ghul with &quot;Bors&quot;, we see that yes, even a Tinker was included among the attendants awaiting instructions from the Ba'alzamon.  I am certain that this was Aram.<br /><br />As for Aram being the Tinker at the meeting, lets consider:  Anyone younger than Aram would certainly not be able to venture off by themselves in order to attend the meeting, and anyone older than Aram would probably be missed by a wife, a husband or other family member. Only a person of Arams' age, young, reckless and free spirited would be likely to wander off without illiciting comment from the people with whom he was travelling.<br /><br />And as to the significance of his competitive ill-mannered dislike towards Perrin in the aforementioned situation...how may I ask, can Aram follow Perrin so faithfully and respectfully when their relationship began with animosity and never at any point turned to anything else except when Aram showed up in Edmonds Field during the Trolloc fiasco dishevelled and covered in blood?  Answer:  He wouldn't!  I think in this instance, the trollocs had no impact on the Tinkers little caravan, nor do I believe the Whitecloaks or Padan Fain's band of dirty white boys had anything to do with the killing of the Tinkers. I think Aram awoke in the night and carefully and quietly stalked through the camp slitting throats and killing every living being, except those who escaped. I think he somehow liberated the survivors from the camp before doing this deed and then claimed to those survivors that the Trollocs did it before dragging them to the Edmond's camp where Aram was to fulfill his commitment and orders from the Ba'alzamon to befriend Perrin and stay at his side until further notice.<br /><br />Aram has too many dark tendencies and too many evil characteristics suddenly for him to be anything else but evil, and besides, the whole blademaster argument, where he has apparently picked up a sword for the first time and intuitively managed to shape himself into a dangerous savage weapon with a sword is a little too convenient for Jordan to throw in the mix.  Even Rand had to practice long and hard to rise to a competent level and he was trained daily by a true blademaster, over a long period of time.<br /><br />In conclusion:  Aram will kill Faile, try to kill Perrin and his evil intentions will become exposed in the traditional &quot;bad guy tells all before killing good guy&quot; as he is somehow shot from behind, thereby saving Perrins life.  Maybe far-fetched, but Aram is definately NO GOOD!  Though it troubles me to no end because I like his character and would wish it otherwise, but some things just cannot be.<br /><br />Well? - Why not?!</p><p><b>Raserei says:</b> Well, why not?  Let's see...<br /><br />You make a lot of accusations and leaps of faith.  Truly, this is all speculation on your part, your opinion.  While you give evidence to prove your case, it isn't substantial.  It could sway either way, and perhaps used for both sides.<br /><br />Plus, characters do change, they do grow.  It's not uncommon for someone to reconcile their differences or beliefs about another person, and go from anonymity to friendship.<br /><br />While on the whole this was a moderately good theory, you base your claims on unstable evidence.<br /><br />Nice try, no cigar.<br /><br /><br /> </p>


created: 2001-12-13 14:25:03
subject: The Third Destroyer Revisited
body:
<p>I haven't seen anyone revisit the &quot;three Destroyer argument&quot; at least nothing has been posted recently. Here are my thoughts. <br /><br />Before Lews Therin died he went mad too. I can hear you all saying, &quot;no, duh!&quot; But Cadsuane tells us that every male channeller starts to hear voices when they are going mad so presumably Lews Therin was no different. So LTT had some guy (let's call him Mr. X) in his head as he went crazy telling him what to do. Only now, 3000 years later, LTT is dead and stuck in someone else's head. Rand's.<br /><br />Here's the big question. Could it be that Rand is starting to get some of Mr. X through Lews Therin? I mean, it took a while for Rand to get any of LTT in his head but we know without a doubt that LTT is getting stronger in Rand. Strong enough perhaps that Mr. X is getting through to Rand  now? At first LTT didn't have a face either. Just a flashing image, a weave, a laugh, a quick sentence...<br /><br />Besides, who else does LTT have to talk about? Especially lumping in together with himself and Rand. They might not be the best of friends but they have no choice of how close they are. I doubt LTT would lump anyone in with them unless there was a good reason. LTT is contemptuous of all current Aes Sedai so we know it isn't Alanna and why would he suddenly start lumping Ishy/Mor in with himself and Rand. He rants and raves about killing Forsaken whenever he gets a chance but suddenly Ishy is one of the gang? I doubt it. More like LTT is in his dilerium talking about his old friend Mr. X who is haunting his mind like LTT himself is haunting Rand's.<br /><br />Just a thought. Hope it hasn't been posted and I overlooked it.<br />Flame Away.<br /><br />Ciel, the Baerlon Maid<br />doesn't need a title or smileys</p><p><b>Raserei says:</b> Well, I haven't seen much of the like around here.  I kinda like the idea.<br /><br />My thought about the whole about the voices were that the voices they were hearing were the souls of their past reincarnations.  So the voices a mad male channeler might here was their past lives.  Thats my thoughts at least.  So perhaps Mr. X is actually another previous Dragon...?<br /><br />Just a thought I guess.<br /><br /><br /> </p>


created: 2001-12-13 14:30:59
subject: Myrddraal, Genetics, and The Spark
body:
<p>This is my first post, so, bear with me, please<br /><br />Shot in the dark here<br /><br />But I have been thinking about Myrddraal. How they were created, and most of their special abilities. Trollocs are genetically altered humans with misc. animals. As far as we know, animals cannot channel, but humans can. It is also easy to assume to assume the ability to Channel is genetic as well. The channeler breeding camps in Shara, the Two Rivers (which is pretty closed off from the world) having a high content of latent channelers and those that can learn, and one of the Windfinders mentioned that her family line is filled with Windfinders that can channel. All of this set the old gears in my head working.<br /><br />If channeling is genetic, and people were used to create Trollocs. We have not heard of Trollocs channeling, ever, one would think they would be Shamans of the tribes. But then it hit me, Myrddraal are like the Shamans, or the leaders of the tribes. I believe that Myrddraal are when the spark manifests in a Trolloc embyro.<br /><br />Myrddraal can link with 13 Aes Sedai to convert a channeler over to the Shadow, Myrddraal can detect when someone is channeling, and they can link with Trollocs to give them a type of Warder bond with them, kill the Myrddraal, and the Trollocs die as well. &amp;nbsp;It was mentioned that Myrddraal are out of phase of time and space. Maybe being altered at the genetic level, the spark can be mutated, which leads to them being semi-beyond the Creator, time and space is normal in the Worlds Between Worlds.<br /><br />Another thing of note, if Myrddraal do have the spark, even in it's altered form, maybe they could gain access to the True Power, Shaider Haran seems able to use it, with his shielding of certain Forsaken, and True Power channeling so far is undetectable, and Shaider Haran lacks eyes for sa'a to appear. Also, the Great Lord does tend to favor him, and only He can grant access to the True Power.<br /><br />Anyway, like I said, shot in the dark...</p><p><b>Raserei says:</b> Yet you may have hit a bullseye.<br /><br />This appeals to me extremely, how the myddraals are the channeling leaders of the Trollocs.  But I thought myddraals were a seperate creation, and had nothing to do with the trollocs geneticism at all.<br /><br />Nice ideas though.<br /><br /><br /> </p>


created: 2001-12-14 02:06:23
subject: Tam the Asha'man
body:
<p>We know that Mazrim Taim scoured the Two Rivers for men who could channel, under Rand's direct command. Who would get scooped up? Egwene's dad? Mat's dad? Tam? Certainly some of the characters we know must have been pulled in, what's the point of mentioning it otherwise? My guess is Tam and Egwene's dad. How about Cenn Buie as an Asha'man?<br /><br />It is interesting that Logain is trying to protect the Two Rivers men. Jordan is setting up the clash between the backstabbing Taim and faithful Logain, with the captive Aes Sedai and the Two Rivers men probably giving the edge to Logain.</p><p><b>Raserei says:</b> LOL! Can you imagine Rand coming back to the Black Tower and seeing his <i>DAD</i> there blowing stuff up.<br /><br />Though, I don't think it would be in Tam's character to become a weapon.  There is more underneath him, lots of layers and history.  Plus, wouldn't you think that Tam <i>Al'thor</i> would stir up some hubbub, being the &quot;father&quot; of the Dragon Reborn?<br /><br /><br /> </p>


created: 2001-12-14 02:12:55
subject: Sammael is dead, RJ said so, or did he...
body:
<p>Ok, so RJ said Sammeal was dead...many times! But he has also stated in the <u>Eye of the World</u> that Aginor was dead, but, then Osan'gar turned up, which is Aginor. So, in theory Sammael <i>is</i> dead, but (for example) Taran'gar is alive!<br /><br />I want my theory to be wrong, as RJ has done this too many times already.<br /><br />ps. If RJ reads this, YOU ROCK!!!!(everyone knows hes part of wotmania(stern looks towards Raserei...))</p><p><b>Raserei says:</b> Okay, so call me egotistical for posting a theory that has my name it, sue me.<br /><br />You want to be wrong though?<br /><br />Okay, yes, Aginor died, but to further plot and whatnot, RJ needed him back. He needed something to make the Forsaken look more evil and stronger than they appeared in EoTW.  Rand killing Aginor, and Balthamel being killed in conjunction with Moiraine and the Nym made the Forsaken not as rough and tough as they should have been.  It made the Forsaken look weak.  RJ needed the 'Gars to make them more menacing.<br /><br />And who would be Taran'gar?<br /><br />This is complete dribble if you ask me.<br /><br /><br /><br />But my name was in it.  Had to post.  I like seeing my name in print.  Thats why I go to chat.  Everytime I say something, there's my name. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /></p><p><b>Vercingetorix says:</b> Raserei is egotistical.  Plus he doesn't know how to check theories for grammar mistakes.  (nows??  shouldn't that be knows, Ras? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" />)<br /><br />But I agree with Ras in that this is complete dribble.<br /><br /><br /> </p>


created: 2001-12-14 07:04:26
subject: Balefire the Dark One?
body:
<p>Probably posted before, but I've read quite a few of the theories and never came across this. I was thinking one night, and suddenly something became &quot;clear&quot; to me. As we all know, balefire is basically the world's undo key. The stronger the balefire, the further back into the past everything is undone. Now by himself, or even linked, Rand balefiring the Dark One, the bore, whatever, really wouldn&#8217;t do much. But as we all know from WH, The male half access key of the <i>Choedan Kal</i> is, as far as we know, still in working order. Could Rand, using that, possibly have enough power to balefire the entire bore, effectively undoing both Lews Therin&#8217;s obvious failure at locking the Dark One back in his hole, as well was Lanfear&#8217;s letting him loose to start with in the first place? <br /><br />It seems that Rand can undo a couple hours himself. (Or with the swordsman angreal, my book is out, I can&#8217;t remember if he still had it at that point) We know that the <i>Choedan Kal</i> makes a channeler very, very strong, but we really don&#8217;t yet know just how strong it makes them. Or if not by himself, linked with a female using the other half of the <i>Choedan Kal</i>? Though my thoughts are that it doesn&#8217;t work being melted and all, Its still possible that it might. With that much power combined and put into a single shot of balefire, I could see this actually working. <br /><br />Of course then you have to look at what the after-effects would be. You can only guess at what could, would, or should happen. No Breaking? Return of the Age of Legends? Lets not forget the Tinkers who always say when they find the song, the Age of Legends will return. What other type of ending could return the Age of Legends so quickly? Who knows what would go haywire if such an event happened and actually worked? For all we know nothing would change because just putting the Dark One back in his hole the way it was before Lanfear opened it might not undo everything that has happened because the DO is outside of time.<br /><br />Do I think this is a likely ending? No. It would really cause WAY too much havoc right after the end of the series. Of course this would be a good ending if RJ expected to continue the series after the Final Battle. It could take 5 books just to explain what all happened after. Personally after that sort of ending (myself being someone that is highly interested in the Age of Legends and almost wishes RJ would explain some of it a lot better) I would have to get the next book just to see what did happen.</p><p><b>Pento McGreno says:</b> It's a while since I've read a new theory, and this is definitely new. I think your point about the Dark One being outside of time really sums it up, though. Balefire burns threads out of the Pattern, but the DO is not a thread. Therefore, we can only assume that Balefire would not affect him.<br /><br />Now, Balefiring Lanfear, on the other hand....<br /><br /><br /> </p>


created: 2001-12-16 14:55:21
subject: Possible Identity of Demandred
body:
<p>I believe I have discovered who Demandred has been posing as.  <br /><br />This character is as tall as Demandred should be.  He does not smile fully like Demandred and has had a similar reaction to the same event as Demandred.  He has also made his first appearance in a chapter with a Forsaken icon and was located in a perfect spot to watch Rand.  Like Demandred, he has trouble showing subserviance to others.  While Demandred stands to dominate a room, this character stands even when asked to sit by his superior. Finally, Winter's Heart revealed him to be a liar.<br /><br />The character I am refering to is most definitely not Mazrim Taim. <br /><br />If you are interested, I posted this theory on wheeloftime.com over a year ago and it was recently bumped up to the first page.  This submission is just a FYI.  As of today, there were more than 100 replies and it was viewed 1,700+ times.  Some people really like it, some really hate it.  It's a very, very long post.  Be warned.<br /><br />http://ina-community.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=72122<br /><br /><br /><br />(ADMIN NOTE:  Here is the original post mentioned above.  Some of the informaton may have been changed or more information added/deleted in the course of the entire post, but will not be added here because it would be extremely tedious and confusing to understand)<br /><br /><br />Demandred's Identity <br /><br /><br />I have formed an opinion as to Demandred's identity. (Again all page citations will be to U.S. paperback editions unless otherwise noted.) With the new revelations contained in Winter's Heart, I have come to the conclusion that the Taimandred theory is now dead. All the evidence pointing to Taim as Demandred was simply misdirection. Yes, there were a large number of similarities between Taim and Demandred, but that's all they were. There was also a great amount of info pointing to Rand as King Aemon reborn - the sheer volume of which was more than Taimandred (I did not post all of it)- but RJ himself confirmed that those similarities were deliberately done to &quot;bait&quot; people into a &quot;blue sky&quot; direction. That's what I believe RJ did here with Taim. He wanted to lead readers to an erroneous conclusion. <br /><br />There is an old saying in America: &quot;Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.&quot; <br /><br /><br />This is what we know about Demandred's physical and personality description. The Guide (to the best of my recollection since I don't have it here) says that Demandred was almost as tall as LTT whom we know from LOC to be the same height as Rand. (Demandred's facial features are not that important because of the &quot;Mask of Mirrors&quot; ) We know from LOC that Demandred does not smile. we also know that Demandred hated being second to LTT whom he considered his intellectual inferior. Now that LTT was reborn, he has transfered that contempt whole. Demandred's liking of shall we say &quot;female companionship&quot; (he's a guy 'nuff said <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> ) <br />and fine clothes does not pose an impediment to who I believe him to be. he would go without or dress is rags if the Dark One ordered him to. <br /><br />Now, look at what we know of Demandred's location. In Winter's Heart (ch. 13, p. 314), we find out that Demandred and Osan'gar were both supposed to be watching Rand. Now this is a bit strange. Why two rather than one? They were not likely to be discovered. One of them alone would not lie to the Dark One. Spying on him could have been done by Kisman or Torval and in any event Rand was telling people things only on a need to know basis. From Winter's Heart, the reason appears to be to keep tabs on him at all times. This motive still leaves the question why two rather than one? <br /><br />I believe that they needed two to watch Rand because each could not do the entire job of watching Rand by himself. Look at what we know to be true of Osan'gar. He was posing as Dashiva who was an Asha'man. The Asha'man had free access to Cairhien, Tear, and Illian. Only in Andor were they curtailed. They were told to stay out of Caemlyn. Dashiva could not watch Rand there nor could Taim. Rand told Taim specifically to stay out of the city. dashiva was left in Cairhien and then in Illian. In addition, Demandred positively was in the palace at Caemlyn. (LOC: ch. 7, p. 220) My conclusion then is that Demandred is posing as someone with access to the palace in Caemlyn. <br /><br />Looking at possible candidates for Demandred, I've seen speculation ranging from Dobraine to Bashere to Wieramon. <br /><br />Dobraine does not fit the physical description of Demandred. He is a short man even for a Cairhienin. Min describes him as a short man a little taller than she is. (TPOD: ch. 27, p. 594) Sure the &quot;Mask of Mirrors&quot; could hide his true height, but all it takes is one touch by anyone and it's all over. This is to great a risk considering how often people are around him. Nor did he to Perrin's nose smell as Demandred should - the hate, contempt, envy, etc that Demandred feels for Rand. There is also the point that Dobraine helped free Rand at the end of LOC. Dobraine is a soldier who can't channel. Battles are extremely lethal, especially if you are on a side outnumbered six to one. He could very easily taken a Shaido spear in the back, channeling or no channeling. I don't believe Demandred would risk dying by pretending to be a soldier who could not channel against those odds. There is also the problem of having both Osan'gar and Demandred in the same place while leaving Rand unwatched in Caemlyn. No, Dobraine is simply who he appears to be. <br /><br />Bashere is not Demandred either. Sure he's in Caemlyn, but so are a great number of other people. Bashere is short. He is described as being a head taller than Enaila (TFOH: ch. 56, p. 957) He has been touched by many people numerous times, so no Mask of Mirrors. Perrin met Bashere and Bashere did not smell to Perrin like Demandred should. Bashere is a soldier like Dobraine. he would also have to fool an enormous number of people like his immediate family. Using Compulsion is just asking for trouble considering the number of people and the number of strong channelers around him. He also does not have access to the palace or Rand enough to be considered watching him. Bashere is not Demandred. <br /><br />Finally, Wieramon. Several people pointed out the pristine condition of his clothes in the fight against the Seanchan. To my recollection, Weiramon never really fought in the battle. He strikes me as the type to be a prissy little s.o.b. [ ;-) ]obsessed with his title and fine clothes. Weiramon is a full head shorter than Rand. (LOC: ch. 4, p. 125) He is not around Rand enough to be considered watching him. Nor does he have access to info to make up for that lack. He is a soldier and soldiers die in battle especially when they can't defend themselves with the power. If Dashiva is any indication, Weiramon rides a horse too well. Weiramon is also not in Caemlyn. <br /><br />Dashiva being in danger like Weiramon, Dobraine, and Bashere is different. Dashiva could channel to protect himself. He's an Asha'man. He's expected to use the Power. The others are not expected to do so. <br /><br />At this point it is worth noting that I spent some time looking through the books for all the known appearances of the Forsaken, including the transmigrated ones. While not every appearance of a member of the Forsaken is accompanied by the Forsaken chapter icon (this occurred numerous times and should be easy for anyone to find), every appearance of the chapter icon has had a Forsaken in that chapter (I might have missed one or two since I was tired. Can anyone doublecheck for me?). That is every one ecept for two arguably three chapters. <br /><br />So, what we are looking for is someone who fits the personality, fits the physical description (or close enough to it considering the Mask of Mirrors), is in the palace at Caemlyn, and might be associated with a Forsaken chapter icon. There is only one such person. That person is Halwin Norry, the First Clerk of Andor. <br /><br />Halwin Norry is a tall man as described by both Rand and Elayne (LOC: ch. 16, p. 377 and WH: ch. 9, p. 210). He is also not known for smiling. &quot;He smiled briefly, a momentary curving of thin lips. For him, that was near to capering.&quot; (WH: ch 9, p. 211) He has obvious access to the palace at Caemlyn. He is in a position to know everything about Andor. &quot;the First Clerk had the power to bring a queen to her knees if unchecked.&quot; (WH: ch. 9, p. 217) Demandred likes standing so he could dominate a room. (WH: ch. 13, p. 313) Halwin Norry always stands even when the future Queen of Andor asks him to sit. (WH: ch. 9, p. 211) Demandred hates bending his neck to anyone. (WH: ch. 13, p. 318 ) Norry had trouble bowing to Elayne. Demandred hated saying the words &quot;As the Nae'blis commands&quot; (WH: ch. 13, p. 318 ) While Demandred hates being second to anyone, the passage could be interpreted to Demandred also hating to say it the way they were said. A similar phrase was also used by Norry (LOC: ch. 16, p. 379) &quot;As the Lord Dragon commands&quot; in a dry tone like the one Demandred has been known to use. <br /><br />While Norry does appear to be older than Demandred, this can readily be explained by an inverted Mask of Mirrors. Although Aviendha nad Merilille did put hands on him in ch. 27 of WH, they did not touch his face. <br /><br />What I found most significant about Norry regards the appearance of the Forsaken icons. As I mentioned earlier, the appearance of a Forsaken is not always accompanied by a Forsaken icon, but whenever the icon appears, there were always Forsaken in the chapter - that is except for three that I found. The first one I found was coincidentally the same chapter where Halwin Norry appears. (LOC: ch. 16) It is true that Sammael sent a messenger to Rand offering a truce and Sammael did use his own voice to say the terms of the truce, but he did not make an actual appearance. The voice in my opinion was RJ using a smoke screen to cover for Norry. Admittedly, it is aguable that the icon was for Sammael. The first impression is for Sammael, but in light of the Taimandred and Aemon misdirections, this should take on a whole new significance. A second occasion for an icon without any recognized Forsaken was ch. 9 of WH. This was the chapter where Elayne got poisoned with forkroot. Who should appear in that chapter but Halwin Norry. (The third one was LOC ch. 13 where Tarna Feir spoke with Nynaeve. Elayne did spend some time talking about Moghedien so I think and connection between Tarna and Mesaana is too speculative at this point.) <br /><br />So what we have is someone who matches the personality of Demandred, fits at least his height, is located where Demandred should be, speaks some of the same phrases Demandred uses, and half the time he appears, there's a Forsaken icon. So, should we call this theory Normandred?<br /></p><p><b>Vercingetorix says:</b> well, this is certainly different.  I have never agreed with the Taimandred theory, and I think this has a great deal of potential.  I am going to have to go through the books again to see for myself how this works.  Overall, very original, creative, and well thought out.  Good job!  So what do you wotmaniacs think about this?<br /><br /><br /> </p>


created: 2001-12-16 18:33:50
subject: Aram a DF? Don't make me laugh!
body:
<p>Many theories have been posted saying that Aram is evil, so he must therefore be a DF. But not everyone who is evil serves the Shadow, Whitecloaks and Shaido being a case in point.<br /><br />Aram is a Tinker, a follower of the way of the leaf. He was a pretty-boy pacifist living out his life as one of a people renowned for their peaceful ways. It would be the perfect cover for a DF. No one would suspect him of being anything but a Tinker, because no one ever suspects Tuath'an of being anything but thieving pacifists. He could have easily used the fact that his family had died for an excuse to latch onto Perrin. Instead, he becomes a bloodthirsty nutter with a love for death. Yeah, THATS a good cover. You expect me to believe that a DF clever enough to avoid being detected by Perrin's keen senses and Faile's keen insight would give up a cover that good? I suppose you could argue that his bloodthirsty nature was his true self and it is easier for him to act that way, but he acted the charmer for about 18 years with his family, a few months of doing it with Perrin wouldn't be to hard. <br /><br />I think the tinker DF at the meeting in TGH was to show that anyone could be a DF, that they are everywhere. I don't think it was to specify any particular tinker in the books as one. Ishy ordered all the DF's at the meeting to kill Perrin, Rand and Mat. If Aram was the Tinker DF at the meeting, why would Aram then go and become Perrin's devoted bodyguard, actually saving him in some instances? He could kill Perrin at any time, or even just let him die. <br /><br />As for Aram's astonishing skill with a blade after so short a time, prodigies are common in WoT. It took Mat very little time at all to become skilled enough with his staff spear to kill Myrdraal. Galad was a true genius with his blade, becoming almost as Good as the Warders by the time of the Dragon Reborn, only a few months after arriving at the White Tower. We know Aram was graceful, because of how he danced with Egwene. With that natural grace and his devotion to his blade, his level of skill after a few months of training with a blademaster (Tam) is not unreasonable for WoT. <br /><br />Aram's level of competence and skill wouldn't fit with he being a DF, considering what we know will happen. It has been foretold that Faile will bear many of Perrin's children, and most fans consider Perrin a prime candidate for living through Tarmon Gai'don. If Aram was a blademaster DF with enough skill at deceit to escape detection and worm his way into a position as Perrin's bodyguard, and under orders to kill Perrin, I do not see how both of these things could happen.<br /><br />The last main arguments for Aram's being a DF are several prophecies. Min saw that Aram put Perrin in danger. Masema puts Perrin in danger, Dain Bornhald and Byar put Perrin in danger. Neither of these are DF's. Egwene dreamed of Perrin running away from a Tinker. At the time, Egwene had met Aram and had a bit of a crush on him. If she saw him in a dream, why would she only refer to him as a Tinker? say she only saw the back of his coat or some such, Perrin's running doesn't prove anything. Avhienda ran away from Rand for light's sake! I am not saying that Perrin is in love with Aram, merely that running away can happen for many reasons. There was a third prophecy that showed Perrin and a Tinker with a sword (obviously Aram) cutting there way through brambles toward a cliff that they couldn't see, while all the while the Brambles cried out with human voices. Not only does this in know way show Aram being a DF, it shows Perrin and Aram fighting as hard as they could for a common goal. Doesn't sound like typical DF behavior, does it?<br /><br />Let me sum up. All along people have been arguing that Aram is a DF because he is evil and puts Perrin danger. I will admit that he has certain evil and bloodthirst tendencies, and I have not denied the prophecies that say Aram puts Perrin in danger. But neither of these means that he is sworn to the shadow, merely that has got some serious issues to work out. All other evidence is, I believe i have shown, inconclusive. And there are substantial arguments which I have stated above showing that it would make no sense for him to be a DF. If anyone can offer conclusive evidence, not of the &quot;I don't remember where or when but sometime RJ said that Aram was a DF&quot; variety, that Aram does serve Shai'tan, I would dearly love to hear it.</p><p><b>Pento McGreno says:</b> I believe the most interesting concept that you bought up, in the rather pointless theory, was drawing the parallel between Aviendha running from Rand, and Perrin running from a Tinker. (We can only assume Aram.) The implications are fairly obvious, of course. While RJ has tentatively explored the areas of female-female relationships, with his talk of &quot;pillow friends&quot;, yet he has failed to touch male-male relationships, something that is sadly missing from the story. While such a topic may make him, and indeed, many readers, uncomfortable, I believe that it is necessary, in order to bring balance, and a proper perspective to the world.<br /><br /><br /> </p>


created: 2001-12-17 12:09:51
subject: Tenobia vs Berelain
body:
<p>Galad, while physically a good match for Berelain, is not conceptually, their characters would not match - Galad only does what is good, and Berelain has done some slightly immoral stuff...I think Berelain and Aram will hook up, therefore taking two threads out of a tangled knot. Perhaps Galad will be the steamy affair Min sees for Sarene, they are both beautiful people...and logic would match Galad's personality well. But when it comes down to it, I think Galad is handmade for Tenobia. She seems to demand only the most perfect man, and Galad would fit that description. His need to only do the right thing would fulfill her Saldean need of a strong man (she couldn't order him around), although I am not sure he'd yell. Perhaps his 'Whitecloak' training would bring that out in him!</p><p><b>Raserei says:</b> Hmm, if I remember right, Berelain does good, it's just her ways of doing it are a little...shall we say...tainted.<br /><br />But Galad and Tenobia would certainly make a...interesting couple, no doubt.  Though I don't think Galad has it in him to get angry at a Saldaen wife.<br /><br />Can you imagine if Tenobia were to dance the sa'sara for Galad?  I think he'd die from apoplexy.<br /><br /><br /> </p>


created: 2001-12-21 15:20:06
subject: The Tinker Have My Pots
body:
<p>It is said that pots and stuff repaired by Tinkers is better then new. What other explanation can be for this other than the one power? <br />We know the Tinkers dont love cities, so a young female Tinker who discovers that she can channel won't like to go to Tar Valon to become an Aes Sedai and <i></i> evil she would like to do something more peacful like...<br /><br />Mending pots.<br /><br />Ila is described as a woman of the same age as her husband but with a young face in EoTW<br /><br />We know that almost all the important nations, cultures in Westland have some role for Channelers and the Tinkers play an important part in Wot. There is no mention of Tinker channelers anywhere (except for the Age of legends, TSR) but everybody has channelers. So what's the deal?<br /><br />About the pots, maybe perhaps when the song is found and the entire world will live in peace <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/blush.gif" border="0" /> the tinkers will help find the way to create heartstone.</p><p><b>Raserei says:</b> Make heartstone because they can mend pots?  For that matter, Perrin would most likely help because he can build things.<br /><br />But the question does stand, what exactly do Tinkers do with their channelers?  And for that matter, what about the male channelers, do they send them off like the Aiel do to the Blight?  Or do the male channeling Tinkers wander alone, fated to go mad without anyone to ease the pain.<br /><br />A sad ending for a dear culture...<br /><br /><br /> </p>


created: 2002-01-03 18:49:09
subject: Demandred, Dumai's Wells and Halwin Norry
body:
<p>The Salidar Aes Sedai believe that Rand arranged the attack, and retaliate. The retaliation drives Rand into leaving Caemlyn for Cairhien, and sets his mind against the group of Aes Sedai most likely to help him. He turns towards the Tower Aes Sedai, who trick him, capture him, and abscond with him locked up in a box, to be rescued by Perrin, the Aiel, and Taim. The overall result is a great deal of ill-will and distrust between Rand and the SAS, Rand and the TAS, and the AS and the Aiel. It is reasonable to conclude that all or part of this was the motive for the attack. Fomenting discord among Rand's possible allies seems to be a general goal of the Shadow's agents, so any of the Forsaken could have had a motive for setting up the attack. The Tower Aes Sedai could have organized it, in order to drive Rand away from their Salidar rivals. Taim, even if he is not a Forsaken, has made efforts to turn Rand against the AS on many occasions. Perhaps Demandred (being Taim) arranged the attack in order to drive Rand away from the SAS, and make him vulnerable to the TAS (whose kidnapping of Rand was likely instigated by Mesaana [LOC: Prologue, The First Message, 5<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/crazy.gif" border="0" />). This theory is attractive because Demandred and Mesaana were working together (with Semirhage, how does she fit in to this theory?) in LOC on a plan to &quot;let the Lord of Chaos rule.&quot; That was, after all, the final result of the events triggered by the attack on Demira-- chaos definitely ruled at Dumai's Wells. <br /><br />This is from the FAQ, detailing the results of the attack on Demira.  But who organized it?  The answer is Demandred, of course.  Demandred, as Halwin Norry (Theory below on theory list) has access to Andor.  He isn't limited there, and controls events to the south with his &quot;friends&quot; (according to Sammael) through his proxies.  But why Demandred?  Demandred, Mesaana, and Semirhage all had a hand in the events of Dumai's Wells.  Mesaana 's role is obvious, with her Black Ajah agents controlling the Tower Aes Sedia.  Semirhage is a mystery to me as of the moment, but had a definitive role because Sammael asserts that Mesaana and Semirhage had roles in it, possible Demandred.  It is unlikely that he knows of their alliance.  Semirhage may have something to do with the Exiled Sedai, since she was involved in the planting of Aran'gar into Salidar.  But where does Demandred fit in?  In Caemlyn, he organized the attack.  This is what he means when he asks the Dark One &quot;Have I not done well?&quot;  <br /></p><p><b>Moridin_2000 says:</b> Well, this adds a little more to that theory about Halwin Norry. Anything's better than Taimandred, but I'd like to see more of the arguments about this. It has a nice ring to it, but, to me, it still seems a bit off. I believe that the author of that theory mentioned that Semirhage could be involved in getting the information out of Norry in the first place. I might be wrong there. <br /><br />Personally, I think everyone puts too much faith in half smiles <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /> </p>


created: 2002-01-03 18:57:02
subject: Lanfear+Moiraine=Cyndane
body:
<p>Lets get straight to the facts we know that both Lanfear and Moiraine are coming back before the end of the series simple as that.  We know that Cyndane is not as strong as Lanfear but is at least equal to Graendal, Mesaana and &quot;the rest&quot; feel she is of this Age,  the forsaken seem to know that Aginor is Osan'Gar and Bal'thamel is Aran'gar but are not certain of Cyndane, Cyndane was held by the Aelfinn and Eelfinn, She has knowledge that only Lanfear would have about the age of legends, Moridin holds her cour'souvra and she is not high above Moghedien.<br /><br />From this  we can gather that she is more than likely Lanfear changed.  The question is how and in what way.  I put forward that she is a mix between Lanfear and Moiraine.  I cant give specifics but i'll back it up as best I can.  If it was a mix it would account for the fact that Mesaana feel she is of this Age but has knowledge of the AoL (Moiraine is of this age and Lanfear certainly had knowledge of AoL), also I believe Raseirei? made a statement that one power is linked to the soul thats why despite the fact that Arangar is now a woman her soul was that of a man so thats why she channels saidin instead of saidar.  If that is true if Moiraine and Lanfear  are one then maybe  strong Lanfear plus moderate Moirane could explain Cyndanes strength.  We know that both Moiraine and Lanfear went through the ter'angreal to the land of the Eelfinn/Aelfinn  and that in Cyndane's POV in WH last chapter she doesn't mention either dying or stilling in that land but we know that Lan was severed from Moiraine.  She could have released the bond, died or have been stilled but I feel that her and Lanfear were both alive on the other side and that they were held prisoner.  This is were I fumble through the dark, so to speak. I believe that the A/Eelfinn with their twisted humour (The message on Matt Ashaendari) and there ability to foretell the future  merged Lanfear and Moiraine into Cyndane for some further purpose.<br /><br />I know this is a theory fraught with holes but I didn't see any other theories of the sort so I thought I'd list it and see what the response was.  As to the theory of Thom saving Moiraine from fire or whatever and how it would fit I couldn't tell you I just thought it would be neat to see Rand go up against  Cyndane only to find that she is  Lanfear/Moiraine, that would really blow his mind.  Its probably wrong  but what the hell</p><p><b>Moridin_2000 says:</b> Oooo....I dunno. I'm a fairly strong believer that Cyndane isn't any kind of mix. This is dealt with in the WoTmania FAQ specifically, although I don't think we had that point. It's hard to believe that she is Moiraine when she doesn't look anything like her. Moiraine had dark hair, Cyndane's is clearly stated as silvery.<br /><br /><br /> </p>


created: 2002-01-05 21:28:22
subject: The Web Weaved...
body:
<p>A while back we had a mild debate over Guaire Amalasan -whether or not he was an incarnation of Lews Therin Kinslayer.<br /><br />This led me to an interesting train of thought.  What if he is not (which most people decided he wasn't) but instead is indeed walking among our third age westlands as somebody else?<br /><br />What if the web spun out Guaire (along with a couple of other False Dragons)to help the Dragon at this round of TG?  <br /><br />I submit this:  Some of the Asha'man have been False Dragons in past lives (or maybe just men who could channel but didn't proclaim themselves).  These men have been spun out again and again for whatever purpose the Pattern has woven.<br /><br />This is not entirely speculative.  We have been shown that the wheel spins souls out over and over.  This isn't just limited to the Heroes of the Horn.  We all know Rand is Lews Therin.  <br /><br />Logically, it would make sense for the Wheel to spin out some of the most powerful channelers in History at the time that they are needed.  Rand needs help, after all.  Raolin Darksbane, Yurian Stonebow, Davian, and Guaire Amalasan are among the strongest men who could channel between LTT and Rand.  So why not spin them out and use them again?<br /><br />This leaves us the question who are they?  I can only guess, since we know virtually nothing of any of them, save Amalasan.  ***Disclaimer:  These are only guesses, not to be agreed with or disagreed with.***<br /><br />Logain Ablar - Guaire Amalasan<br />Mazrim Taim - Yurian Stonebow<br />Jahar Narishma - Raolin Darksbane<br />Damer Flinn - Davian<br /><br />The only reason I guess these four is that they are the strongest (that we know) of the Asha'man; Guaire, Raolin, Yurian, and Davian were the strongest False Dragons (again, that we know).  The only one that I really feel somewhat confident about is Logain being Guaire.  They both called their followers the People of the Dragon.  Guaire certainly got a lot of glory -well, more history was written about him than the others, anyhow.  Logain's destined for great glory.<br /><br />Again, the guesses as to who's who are purely speculative, but the theory is not.  It is based on the patterns that we've seen with other major characters (among others) being reborn as someone else, things said by our heroes of the horn, the evidenced need of Rand, and overall logic.<br /><br />Anyway, thought I'd share these thoughts.  <br /><br />Maybe some of you have some ideas about this?</p><p><b>Moridin_2000 says:</b> I think that the spinning out of so many male channelers was a major herald of the coming of the Dragon Reborn. I have a few problems with Logain being Guaire, but since I'm the author of that theory you mentioned that would be expected. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />I would favour Taim as one of the more evil minded False Dragons. Definately one of those you mentioned, that is if he <i>is</i> an incarnation of someone. Additionally there are probably lots of the Hundred Companions reborn as Ashaman. This seems quite reasonable to me.<br /><br /><br /> </p>


created: 2002-01-05 21:38:40
subject: The Balance Scale
body:
<p>Mat must make a decision regarding two aes sedai, and on his decision will depend the fate of the world. What I am about to write is merely an idea of what might happen, of how this prophecy might work itself out. It is not necessarily how it will turn out. <br /><br />The two Aes Sedai might be Moiraine and Egwene. The choice he must make is whether to return to the Band of the Red Hand or to go to the Tower of Ghenjei and save Moiraine. He sacrifices Egwene and the female Aes Sedai--half the light of the world--for Moiraine, whose presence or knowledge is essential to winning the last battle, which we know from Min, when she decides not to tell Rand all of her viewings, because there is no point to telling him that he is doomed without a woman who is dead and gone. <br /><br />With the band severed from Mat, they are free to move to Elayne and fulfill her severed hand prophecy. Egwene would be in a tight spot without the band, on whom she had been relying for support. She would have to do something drastic--possibly swearing fealty to the Crystal Throne in exchange for support from Tuon. <br /><br />Mat's choice also might mean that he must leave Egwene and all the Aes Sedai, rebels and otherwise, to be leashed by Seanchan. Thus, he gives up half the light of the world in order to accomplish something that is of greater importance in the grand scheme of things. <br /><br />The question which needs to be answered here--and which RJ needs to answer, eventually, as well--is what could make Moiraine's rescue not only necessary but immediately necessary. She has been stuck in Finnland for awhile now, and something has to happen in order to make that situation dire. I am interested to see how RJ accomplishes this.</p><p><b>Moridin_2000 says:</b> When I started reading this theory, I dismissed it because I always thought that it referred to saving Joline and Teslyn. However, that is probably not as serious as the fate of the world, so Egwene and Moiraine seem to be a good choice.<br /><br />The only problem is that Mat isn't really looking for Moiraine at this point. He isn't even inclined towards it. As far as he knows she's as dead as a doornail. He surely would head towards Rand or Egwene instead. <br /><br /><br /><br /><br /> </p>


created: 2002-01-06 07:23:12
subject: Theories From the Fourth Age
body:
<p>By looking through all the books and checking out the little snippets of text from the fourth age that are sometimes at the start or end of the novels, I have formulated some theories.  Some of these are pretty basic but I felt that they needed to be stated anyway.<br /><br />First, lets start with a real basic one.  Rand wins.  I have no idea if he survives or not, but the DO is defeated, or there would be no writers to write about Rand, or if there were, they would have some really nasty things to say about him.<br /><br />Now on to one that is similar but still needs to be stated in its own right.  Rand doesn't break the world, or at least not in the same way that LTT did.  Rand may destroy a few countries and kill off a third of the world's population, but he leaves enough intact to rebuild what is already there.  If this was not true, he would be remembered the same way that LTT was (remember LTT did save the world from the DO, he just happened to destroy most of it in the process).  Quite the opposite, Rand is seen as a savior of the world.  A couple of writers mention that he brings change and destruction, but not on a scale large enough to be considered 'Breaking the World'.<br /><br />Third, Rand does manage to merge all the nations.  The quote at the end of book 5 is &quot;Binding nations to him.  Making one of many.&quot;  which is pretty clear.  It also seems that this coalition doesn't hold up for long because the quotes in the books are signed as coming from at least two different nations.  This may be because Rand is dead and there is none else to hold the nations together, or it may just be that once the last battle is one he just doesn't care anymore.<br /><br />Fourth, I do not think that there will be any huge wielding of the power in the battle for Tar Valon.  If there is, it will not be the building flattening type because the &quot;Let The Lord Of Chaos Rule&quot; is from Great Arvalon, which is almost certainly Tar Valon with a shortened name.  If There really was a large scale battle with Aes Sedai involved, well, even if the tower isn't a tenth as powerful as it was a thousand years ago, there is still enough firepower on both sides to easily wipe our the city and possibly the island.<br /><br />Now on to some more speculative theories.  These have no real impact on the third age and deal with the fourth age instead.<br /><br />First, It is possible that there is a return to the Old Tongue at least among the more cultured people.  This is because a number of the quotes in the books have Old Tongue titles as well as common ones, suggesting that they were written in the Old Tongue.  Since the Trolloc Wars, everything has been translations from the Old Tongue into common.  Currently, most nobles can barely understand a few words of Old Tongue there would need to be a much higher literacy rate before anything would be written in the old Tongue.<br /><br />This leads into the second one that deals mainly with the fourth age in that there seems to be a renascence period after the Last Battle with importance given to songs and poetry.  The title of Songmistress is one example.  Perhaps this means that the Tinkers will find their song ( I am going out on a limb on that one, I know, but I can always hope can't I )?<br />I have chosen to ignore the &quot;Let the lord of chaos rule&quot; quote because there is just not enough information about it.  The only two things that I am willing to hazard a guess about is that Andor takes over Cairhien (I seem to remember that there was something about hills in either the original name of the city or the flag, but I am too tired to search through 13000 pages of text for a reference that I might be mistaken about).  The other thing is that the three people in the third line are people who oppose Rand, because they are told to &quot;Let the lord of chaos rule&quot;.  Since this is also what the DO tells his followers, I assume that this means that these people are DF or are controlled by DF.  I think that Elaida is the &quot;Blind woman&quot; because she is the Amyrlin Seat, whose titles include Watcher over the seals, a responsibility that she is in no position to carry out due to Alviarin.<br /><br />Thats all I have.  Hope you like.<br /><br />Telvin</p><p><b>Moridin_2000 says:</b> Some really good stuff here, especially that part about the Songmistress and the finding of the Song.<br /><br />I don't think that Great Arvalon is Tar Valon though. It has kept it's name for nearly three thousand years and Elaida Foretold they will become stronger than ever. Then again, I could be wrong <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /><br /> </p>


created: 2002-01-06 07:31:52
subject: Possible Disney Adaptation
body:
<p>Okay, so I guess this doesn't *really* count as a theory... but I was thinking, if Disney produced the Wheel of Time....<br /><br />Our story begins as Mickey Mouse, along with trickster Donald Duck and ever-faithful Goofy, as well as wide-eyed Minnie Mouse and mean-tempered Daisy Duck, are rescued from their small corner of Fantasia just in the nick of time by the magical Fairy Godmother and her warder, Hercules.  Fairy Godmother reveals to Mickey that he is in fact the Disney Reborn, born on the slopes of the Matterhorn according to prophecy, and it's all confirmed as he raises the lost banner of the Magic Kingdom, appears in the sky with a blue-starry cap and magic wand to battle evil over the ocean at Frontierland, and even draws the Sword in the Stone.<br /><br />Goofy, meanwhile, meets Pluto, and learns to run with the doggies, and of course later meets and marries a wily woman with tilted eyes who is masquerading as something she's not -- Mulan.  Donald, on the other hand, only wants to drink and gamble -- but is drawn into the action when he and Mickey both drop down a rabbit hole and consult the Genie of the Lamp, who tells them that they most enter the Great Waste.  It is in the Waste that Minnie befriends Pocohontas and studies with the Cherokee, who are also secretly known as &quot;The People of the Lion,&quot; and call Mickey 'Simba', which means &quot;The Lion King&quot; in the Old Tongue.<br /><br />In the meantime, Daisy Duck, who is in love with Hercules, has been having adventures with Cindarella, who has bonded Robin Hood against his will.  Cindarella's brother, Prince Charming, will eventually fall in love with Minnie Mouse; Cindarella herself loves Mickey.  She's not alone, though; Pocohantas has fallen for Mickey too, and Alice, who always sees strange and curious things, is wandering through Wonderland looking for him too.<br /><br />Mickey sets to work hunting out the evil Forsaken, such as Jafar, Captain Hook, the Wicked Step-Mother, and Ursula, while uniting everybody from Sleeping Beauty's castle to Aladdin's Palace.  Mickey enlists Peter Pan to organize an army of green-coated men to match the likes of the Good Fairies, all the while juggling people such as his tree-dwelling friend Tarzan, the power-hungry likes of Gaston and company, and the sea-bound Atlantean-Folk, as best he can.<br /><br />But disaster strikes in the form of the Mermen and Mermaids from across the ocean, come in Triton's name to overtake the world on the backs of flying elephants.  This leads to the unlikely marriage of Donald Duck and Ariel, Triton's daughter; it remains to be seen whether Donald can deliver the magic feather.<br /><br />How the story ends is still anyone's guess.  It seems fairly certain that Mickey Mouse and Minnie Mouse will come to rule Fantasia together, and that Mickey will use the knowledge gained from Belle's father, the absent-minded inventor, to re-imprison the forces of evil unleashed so long ago.  Whether any of them can survive, nobody can say, but if anyone can lead Fantasia and the rest of the world into Tomorrowland, the Disney Reborn can do it.<br /><br />Think it's worth sending a spec script to Disney? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /></p><p><b>Moridin_2000 says:</b> LOL! The characters are scarily similar, but I wouldn't send it to Disney...<br /><br />Is there some kind of conspiracy about Disney and WoT? This is the third theory on the subject as far as I'm aware...<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /> </p>


created: 2002-01-06 07:39:28
subject: Whitecloaks as a WoT version of...
body:
<p>This might be seen as an offensive idea, but it's there in my head none the less.<br /><br />   Has anyone else thought that perhaps the Children of the Light are the WoT equivalent of The KKK? Aside from the obvious fashion similarities both organizations by some accounts were started with other purposes in mind (I've heard it stated that the Ku Klux Klan was originally intedned to push back the 'yankee influence' of the north after the war). They both ended up becoming organizations based on prejudices.<br /><br />   I think the big difference is that the KKK was in trouble from the get go. People involved in the founding of it already had the rascist attitudes that allowed it to become what it is. The CotL were started with noble intentions that got polluted later on if I recall.<br /><br />   So the real question is what's this all mean as far as the books. Well there was once a time when the KKK were a powerful force down south. Now a days they're little more than joke to the rest of the country. It's not that they aren't still dangerous, just not so influential.<br /><br />   Perhaps this is what will happen to the CotL when the saga is ended. Their biggest argument about channeling being an abomination has been the breaking and the taint that caused it. Well now that Taint has been healed BY CHANNELERS! So that sorta takes the wind out've thier biggest sail.<br /><br />   Perhaps after Tarmon Gaidon is done with the whitecloaks will fade into obscurity and be considered a fringe lunatic organization that only rabid psychos and ill mannered dullards would be part of.<br /><br />   Lot's of people have talked about Galad taking over the Children and bringing them back to their roots. I just don't see it. First off Galad is young newbie in this group. I may be mistaken but I don't even think he's an officer yet (if he is and someone can point out the chapter it'd be appreciated).<br /><br />   There's have to be a lot of things happen before Galad could be influential enough to get more than a handful of people to his side. The fact that both his siblings and his mother have ties to Tar Valon is another black mark against him. Changing the Children of the light to no longer being anti Aes Sedai is a lot harder a task than some seem to think<br /><br />   The more realistic scenario to me is that Galad upon finding out what happened to his mother ditches the whitecloaks and takes a few soldiers with him perhaps. Either way I don't see Galad to likely to remain in the organization by stories end.<br /><br />    There you go, a theory that mentions Galad and doesn't have to dwell on whether he's someones certain man in white.</p><p><b>Moridin_2000 says:</b> Not a bad analogy, especially where WoTland has other similarities to North America. Although, I would put them more as Spanish Inquisition archetype.<br /><br /><br /> </p>


created: 2002-01-07 15:00:24
subject: Question of Balefire
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<p>I was rereading the series when I came across a passage I had to read several times before I realized that somewhere along the line I think Robert Jordan made a mistake which surprises me.  Hopefully someone can clear this up for me.<br /><br />I was reading the LoC in the prologue when the Dark Lord was speaking to Demandred regarding the fates of several Forsaken.  Demandred detects a twinge of anger in the Dark Lord's voice over his inability to &quot;step outside of time&quot; to resurrect Rahvin.  It is a truism then, that even a near omnipotent and all powerful entity such as the Dark Lord possesses no recourse or control against balefire and the laws of the pattern.  I took this for granted since and in nearly every explanation of the balefire weave involves its role as an irresistable force, like time itself, and nothing manmade or otherwise can defense this.  But apparently something IS able to.  Something manmade even.<br /><br />In the DR when Rand is chasing Ba'alzamon around the Stone of Tear after Moiraine balefires Bel'al, Ba'alzamon apparently shoots a similar &quot;white hot bar&quot; of light at Rand that strikes the blade of Callandor and splits to either side of Rand.  At first I thought that it must be something other than balefire, but the whole next paragraph describes the walls and columns that were struck by the weave as if it were balefire.  Similarly, I have not heard of any other weave described in such a manner.  Callandor IS of course one of the most powerful sa'angreal ever made by man, but even still, it is only man.<br /><br />My question is, after reiterating on dozens of occasions, even having it reinforced by the Dark Lord himself that balefire is irresistable and irreversible, how can something fashioned by man resist something so elemental and unstoppable as time and the Pattern itself?<br /><br />I also thought about the possibility that balefire vs. Callandor is One power Vs. the One power, a weave vs. a sa'angreal.  But in the end, shouldn't balefire be an absolute?  If it is not, what can be considered absolute?  Why is it called a parkway when you drive on it and a driveway when you park on it?  These are some of the questions that I don't have an answer to.  My head hurts...</p><p><b>Moridin_2000 says:</b> I don't think RJ has made a mistake here, but I didn't want to delete your theory. You seemed to put more work into it than....ahem...certain others. Thanks <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />The <i>effects</i> of Balefire cannot be reversed. Certain things do have immunity to it though. The Heartstone ornaments in Tanchico just bounces around the floor when they were hit with Balefire. Gholam are probably immune too, they are immune to all One Power effects. Also in addition to Callandor, I seem to remember that the Wanderer in Shadar Logoth deflected Rand's balefire with his own weave. I could be wrong there though. So, if Callandor is made from Heartstone or something similar, it could split the Balefire easily. It also may be, as you say, a property of <i>sa'angreal</i>.<br /><br /><br /> </p>


created: 2002-01-07 15:18:16
subject: Rand al'Thor as King Arthur
body:
<p>Min had a viewing of Rand on a funeral bier with three women standing over him.  My first thought of this would be his three ladies but the more and more I think of it, the more I think of the King Arthur legend.  Upon the death of King Arthur three women came to him to take him to the isle of Avalon (Tar Valon, the isle?).  In almost every legend Morgan le Fay was always there.  The other two women seemed to change with just about every legend.  They range from the Queen of the Wastelands-the Lady of the Lake and the Queen of the Northgales-Vivien.  Now Morgan le Fay was sometimes known as the Lady of the Lake and also as Vivien but each seems to have their own attributes.  The Lady of the Lake sometimes lived in an underground kingdom under the lake, others she ruled Avalon.  Vivien was always known as a great healer, and also Morgan le Fay was sometimes known as Morgawse.  I'm pretty sure that Morgase in the books wouldn't be standing over a funeral bier with Rand on it but who else with a close connection would be?  Elayne of course.  And who would be the ruler of Avalon or Tar Valon in this case be?  Egwene, The Amyrlin Seat.  And lastly, I think, that Vivien, the great healer, would be no other than Nynaeve.  <br /><br />Now here's even more of a thought of Rand as King Arthur, they were both raised in secrecy (yeah, yeah, I know not much).  Both pulled a sword from a stone.  With King Arthur though that is dependant upon the legend.  Some say he got Excalibur from the Lady of the Lake and some say that he pulled it from a stone.  Rand pulled Callandor from the Stone of Tear.  Like King Arthur he also plunged the sword back into the stone (once again dependant upon which legend of King Arthur).  However, if Egwene is the Lady of the Lake in this then it is possible for her to somehow end up keeping the sword for later and then giving it to Rand.  Just a possibility.  <br /><br />Now for the real kicker.  Arthur's mother's name was Igraine....  Tigraine was Rand's....</p><p><b>Moridin_2000 says:</b> We were discussing this further down the theories, so I thought it would be good to post now. Again RJ likes his legends, it all seems valid stuff to me. I like the idea that the boat is sailing across to Tar Valon. Maybe the bridges were broken in the siege? Morgawse does point to Elayne, but I can't stop thinking it's Moiraine. No reason other than it would be good to see Elayne, Aviendha, Moiraine and Egwene all try to Heal Rand. Interesting stuff and nice work!<br /><br /><br /> </p>


created: 2002-01-07 15:24:19
subject: Dragons are Real (in Randland)
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<p>Remember when Egwene went to the museum in Tarabon in Tel'aran'rhiod?  She saw a skeleton of some serpentine creature with tusks.<br /><br />Proof of real dragons. duh.</p><p><b>Moridin_2000 says:</b> I am the Walrus. Koo koo ka chu...<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />RJ said that Dragons never existed in WoT, but I thought it would be interesting to discuss. What is it? <br /><br />Note: Prob not a Walrus <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /> </p>


created: 2002-01-07 15:34:13
subject: What if Demandred is...
body:
<p>What if Demandred is Demandred.  Sounds simple doesn't it.  <br /><br />As so many other people have been quick to point out, from chapter 6 &quot;Threads Woven of Shadow&quot; from LOC (hardcover p.135):<br /><br />&quot;Events to the south had Demandred's mark all over them.  Demandred had always like using proxies.&quot;<br /><br />So RJ has Sammael say right there that Demandred is using someone for power.  What if he is completely behind the scenes.  This would open up an entirely knew enigma of &quot;Who is Demandred controlling?&quot;<br /><br />Sammael goes on further to say to Graendal:<br /><br />&quot;Tell him to be careful.  I won't have him or his friends interferinging in my plans.&quot;<br /><br />So it is my guess that Demandred is using someone in the vicinity of Illian, because Sammy is worried about him getting too close.<br /><br />If Weiramon is the Tairen high lord at the DF social in the prologue of TGH, then he could be the proxy.  Other possibilities: Taim, whiteclokes, Prophet just to mention a few that I can think of.<br /><br />I'm probably stretching this theory a little thin right here, but what if he has a three fold plan involving many different proxies that will come together to crush Rand.  It's possible.  (but improbable)<br /><br />Please shoot down my theory.  Thanks</p><p><b>Moridin_2000 says:</b> Just glad to see a theory not guessing that Demmy is Taim, Bashere or Wieramon. After all if Demandred is fond of using proxies perhaps Taim, Weiramon and Masema are all proxies. Makes sense to me. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />I wonder if it is possible that Demandred does actually hide away on his own, not actually maskerading as anyone. A nice little cottage in the country perhaps? <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> RJ would've outsmarted us there <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/biggrin.gif" border="0" /> Mesaana does seem to be very anonymous, and Rand went AWOL in WH. Demandred could be doing the same.<br /><br /><br /> </p>


created: 2002-01-08 13:01:56
subject: Lord of the Rings/Wheel of Time/Star Wars
body:
<p>Alright, I have a craaaazy theory!  I think that all these classics are all related.  The Lord of the Rings is Age 1, the Wheel of Time (Randland) is Age 3 and Star Wars is Age 7.  Look at it!  First comes the Ringwraiths, then the Myrddraal, and then the Jawas!  Jawa is where the Myrddraal finally evolved eyes!   What about the Forsaken?  Well, the evolutionary chain goes Saruman ----&gt; Ishamael ----&gt; Emperor Palpatine.  <br /><br />This is a new era in WoT theories!<br /><br />--------<br />I've noticed that there are a lot of serious theories.  I just thought you people need to lighten up!  It'll all be here soon!  Unless &quot;He&quot; dies!  <br /><br />Don't be a black-veiled Aiel <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/aiel.gif" border="0" />!</p><p><b>Raserei says:</b> It makes sooooo much sense!<br /><br />Think about it!  Age 3 is where the Ringwraiths finally let down their hoods!<br /><br /><br /> </p>


created: 2002-01-10 15:07:20
subject: Gholam Untrustworthy
body:
<p>I haven't read too many theories about the gholam, so here's a shot at something new.<br /><br />We know that gholam were created in the Age of Legends specifically to attack and kill Aes Sedai. However, from what we've seen of them so far in the WOT, I think that they are somewhat untrustworthy.  Sammael and Graendal have a conversation where Graendal shivers at the thought of opening a stasis box and finding a gholam, and it mentions that she had a pretty close call with one in the past.  At first I thought that she probably escaped using the True Power. This made since because the Dark Side would have to have a built in a safety net to deal with the gholam. They seem to be untrustworthy, living only to experience the death of the channeling ability in their victims.  This would make them as dangerous to the Forsaken as well as the good guys.  Realizing this, only six were ever made and the Forsaken were decidedly uneasy about them.<br /><br />So if it only takes some of the True Power to kill a gholam, why would Graendal only barely escape with her life.  It would be a relatively simple matter to undertake, since the Forsaken would have the knowledge of how gholam were created. I also remember the gholam feeling Moridin use the True Power, even though it didn't remember what it was. After Mat wounded it with his medallion, it also thought that it has never encountered anything else that could harm it. So it remembered the True Power, although it didn't know what it was, but still had not encountered anything that would harm it.<br /><br />So I think that gholam are immune to the True Power, and when this became evident, the Dark Side stopped making them.  So how do you hurt a gholam? One way, slap it around with a strange medallion. But maybe there's another way.  We've seen that Mat is like a human gholam when he wears the medallion.  The flows just melt when they hit him.  But that does not make him invulnerable to things like lightning and clods of horse dung.  What if you struck a gholam with lightning or set fire to everything around it.  Even if the gholam doesn't have bones, it has to be made of something, and anything will burn if you heat it hot enough.  This weakness was not discovered in the Age of Legends because no one lived long enough in the presence of a gholam to study it. But now that they have Mat's medallion to work with, maybe one of the good guys will figure it out.<br /><br />Now I think that gholam are immune to the True Power as well as the the One Power, and only the will of the Dark One can keep their cravings from backfiring and killing one of his own servants.</p><p><b>Raserei says:</b> Graendal nearly escaped with her life.  THis makes it sound as if the Gholam put up a fight against her, and it doesn't exactly sound like she killed it off.  Otherwise, they would have said there are only five gholams, not six, were the Graendal fighting one was dead.<br /><br />What I think Graendal might have done was perhaps contain the Gholam, trapping it in a stasis box (which also may be a reason why she shivered, in the off chance she'd open the stasis box she herself entrapped a pissed off gholam in.)  I think that she just managed to trap it and escape with her life.  Otherwise, she'd be six feet under.<br /><br /><br /> </p>


created: 2002-01-10 15:11:21
subject: Men Can Avoid the Taint
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<p>It's true!  I went back and reread some of the more important scenes with Rand, and I finally saw it: when he reached for <i>saidin</i>, he touched the taint.  When he CALLED <i>saidin</i>, the taint never touched him!  Furthermore, when it was a subconcious channeling, he didn't touch it either.  INSTINCTIVE CHANNELING! When Rand tries to dip into the power he couldn't get at it, but when he assumed the oneness, and let the power come to him, the taint was superceded.  Kind of like the communal bottle: all of the backwash is on the top, so you have to tip it way back to get the goods!!!     <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/flaminggrin.gif" border="0" /></p><p><b>Raserei says:</b> Um...<i>saidin</i> doesn't come to you.  That was made painstakingly clear in the scene with Rand, Egwene and Elayne in the Stone of Tear.  <i>Saidin</i> has to be seized, <i>saidar</i> has to be surrendered to.  I think he still felt the taint, but bigger and better things were occuring that the description of the taint wasn't mentioned by RJ.<br /><br /><br /> </p>


created: 2002-01-10 15:16:52
subject: Lews Therin is Not Mad
body:
<p>You'll remember back to the time of the glorious Preface to Book 1, when Ishamael and LTT got to talking. Ishamael was so kind as to lift the taint and madness from our great hero's eyes.  At seeing the destruction he had caused, he went out in a glorious blaze.  Unfortunately for Ishamael, LTT was sane at the time of his demise and so should be to this day.  I put forth the notion that Lews Therin is in fact perfectly sane sitting up in Rand's head, but simply seems mad because of his guilt and depression.</p><p><b>Raserei says:</b> Perhaps, but who's to say on whether the lifitng of the taint by Ishamael was permanent, and not some momentary enlightenment?  <br /><br />But, like you said, LTT might have slipped into a different madness, one he brought on from his seeing what he did.  So, he tumbled into a maddening loss and unbearable weight of thousands of lives lost because of him...sounds like thats what Rand is slowly becoming.<br /><br /><br /> </p>


created: 2002-01-10 15:25:55
subject: The End of the One Power
body:
<p>Just a short thought out of left field. The bore into the DO's prison was made through a weakness in the wall of the Pattern. What if this wall is the One Power. In that case in order to seal the prison as well as the Creator, did it may be necessary to weave all the <i>saidin</i> &amp; <i>saidar</i> loose in the world into the new prison. This will leave the following ages without the one power until someone &quot;accidentally&quot; rediscovers it. They will then use more and more of it, unknowingly weakening the wall over the DO's prison until the weakness is discovered and curiousity leads them to make a bore to see what's there. A circular explanation that seems to cover most of what I understand about the Wheel.</p><p><b>Raserei says:</b> It is nicely circular and has the same sort of logic, but what about the uprising question of this age being the last age on the wheel, and instead of time being circular, become linear instead?  Then there would be no more OP, or DO and so on.<br /><br /><br /> </p>


created: 2002-01-10 15:40:29
subject: The Oath Rod
body:
<p>I was reading ACoS and I noticed something I found interesting...  On page 502, Reanne says that her &quot;next naming day will be my four hundred and twelfth.&quot;  And then, on page 577, Elayne says &quot;It's your ages, Reanne.  It is considered rude among Aes Sedai to speak of age, but. . . . Reanne, apparently no Aes Sedai since the Breaking has lived as long as any of you in the Knitting Circle claim.  In your own case, not by over a hundred years.&quot;  Well, my theory is that the Oath Rod has a number 3 on it and there were &quot;9 Rods of Dominion&quot; numbering from 1 to 9 (I assume).  So, what if each rod was like a differing level of punishment?  If you held rod 3, then you would live only 300 years?  As I quoted above, no Aes Sedai has lived longer than 300 years since the Breaking or near enough.  That led me to believe perhaps for the worst offense in the Age of Legends, they were bound with the 1 rod and would only live for 100 years or less...   Go ahead and bash my theory if you want.</p><p><b>Raserei says:</b> Bash bash bash.<br /><br />The rod that the Aes Sedai are using to sniff out Black Ajah are using a rod with an 111 on it.  First off, 111 would certainly count this rod out of the Nine Rods of Dominion, and also the Oath Rod and the Rod Sevanna has with her.  Because of that 111, all of those rods aren't part of the Nine.  And if the 111 rod was, does that mean the person is condemned to livew 11,100 years?  I think not...<br /><br />Although, it's possible that the ORIGINAL Oath Rod is actually a part of the Nine, and the others are just copies.  We can't say more, because we don't know what the numbers stand for.<br /><br /><br /> </p>


created: 2002-01-10 19:51:08
subject: Bela, Narg, and a Cold Winternight in The Two Rivers
body:
<p>Bela.  Narg.  Legends in their own rights, but yet so mysterious.  Why the silence from RJ when we inquiring minds want to know more?  After a lot of thinking that involved the mass imbibing of certain adult substances and trips to get in touch with my Inner Trolloc, I have stumbled upon the answer why.  RJ is trying to be discrete about the pre-<i>Eye of the World</i> relationship that Bela and Narg had.<br /><br />It's so obvious once you dwell upon it after re-reading the series for the 345th time while making plans to buy an authentic replica original of a heron-mark sword.  Bela, the sweet and gentle horse, naturally would be attracted to a badass like Narg.  After all, Narg had enough human to master her, but yet was animal enough to make her whinny in delight.  Besides, what animal could resist the lure of the fabled Trolloc charm?<br /><br />Want factual proof?  Narg obviously was waiting around for Bela that fateful Winterheart night.  He kept telling Rand to wait as well - obviously because he wanted Rand's approval so that Narg could formally date Bela, who after all was Rand's family horse.  So therefore, Narg and Bela obviously had a thing going.<br /><br />It's really sad to think of what could have been.  Narg could have been the father of some real horse's asses, since he probably had some ass somewhere in his ancestry.  Bela could have been so much more than limo-horse for the Stars.  She could have mothered a race of superintelligent....uh, something-or-others that would make the world tremble in their presence.<br /><br />But no, Rand just <i>had</i> to kill Narg, didn't he and have to separate Bela from her sweetie.  Not only that, but he just <i>had</i> to cleanse her of her tiredness, just when she might have been willing to join her beloved in a suicide/murder, similar to Romeo and Juliet, Hamlet and the King, all rolled into one.  But Bela's heart shall carry on!</p><p><b>Raserei says:</b> Alas! poor Narg, I knew him well!<br /><br /><br /> </p>


created: 2002-01-15 23:54:23
subject: How did Rand help Bela?
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<p>This is something that has been rattling around in the back of my mind ever since I read the first book for the first time.  Thanks to Eye of the World being split into halves, the rattling has started back up.  The Wheel of Time has barely started, the gang has just left the Two Rivers, and Rand is desperate for Bela to keep up with the others because of Egwene.  <br /><br />Now, anyone who has read carefully knows that this is the first time Rand channels.  In Chapter 11 Rand is mentally screaming for Bela to run run run!  And immediately his skin tingles and his bones seem to freeze.  Further proof is the fact that he falls ill in Baerlon with the same sickness all &quot;wilders&quot; get after they have muddled through channeling alone.  <br /><br />What bothers me about this is just exactly how did Rand manage to give Bela strength while galloping along on the back of his own horse running from Trollocs and Draghkar?  When they stop briefly in Watch Hill, Moiraine makes rounds amongst the horses to take away their fatigue.  She comments to Rand that Bela didn't seem to need her services as much as the other horses...even Mandarb and Aldieb, who should be more used to such things than Bela.  Here's the clincher: Moiraine had to dismount and physically contact each horse to do her business.  How did Rand do it without touching Bela?<br /><br />I've been paying attention and I can't find any example anywhere of anyone Healing, Delving, or anything else related to those activities without physical contact being very necessary.  If I'm wrong, please let me know.  I admit I don't know how he did it, unless it's another example of Aes Sedai doing things a certain way just because that's how they always have.  Maybe they've touched their subjects all along, so now they believe it to be necessary when all you really need is to direct the flows.  Maybe it's something undiscovered.  Maybe a certain strength in the Power is necessary.  Just think how much it will help at Tarmon Gaidin if our folks can figure out how to Heal across a distance. <br /><br />It's possible the answer is simple and I'm overlooking it.  If that's the case, I certainly am a woolhead and I'll be happy to admit that.  But with so much going on in Eye of the World and this being a particularly important bit of the story, I just can't seem to let it go without knowing how the heck he did it</p><p><b>Vercingetorix says:</b> Excellent observation skills.  I looked up this scene and, sure enough, you're right.  As to why, there are a few possibilities that I can think of that you didn't mention.  First, perhaps men heal differently.  The only two cases that I can think of men healing are when Rand gets healed of Padan Fain's wound(sort of), but I don't have that book with me at the moment, and when Ishamael heals Lews Therin of his madness.  In the second case, it says that he &quot;extends his hands&quot; but nothing about whether or not he actually touches him.  Second, perhaps it is the earliest example of something dredged up from Lews Therin's memories.  Anyone else have any ideas?<br /><br /><br /> </p>


created: 2002-01-16 03:50:00
subject: How Rand Will Be Taught Laughter and Tears and More!
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<p>A Theory about Rand&#8217;s relationship with Lan, Cadsuane&#8217;s teachings, the reward for serving the Light and how Rand will be taught laughter and tears<br /><br />I have read several different theories about what Cadsuane would teach Rand and the Asha&#8217;man. To fully explain why Cadsuane will not teach Rand laughter and tears, I will first describe what the &#8220;reward&#8221; for serving in the light is, and then go on with the relationship and similarities between Rand and Lan. Then I will put forward what Cadsuane will teach Rand and his men.<br /><br /><br /><u><b>The Reward of the Light</b></u><br /><br />Mr. Jordan has a very profound view of what the struggle between Good and Evil is all about. When Mr. Jordan describes an act as evil, it is indeed evil. Take the questioning of the novice Sahra, who was tortured in the <u>Shadow Rising</u>.  We have also seen where the reward of serving the Dark One often leads. The deaths of Carradin, Amico and Joiya, and the end of Gode for finding Rand, have not been very enviable. Of course, we have yet to have seen a successful plot by the Dark One be rewarded. Immortality and power over the rest is, of course,  the reward of serving the Dark One.  <br /><br />What then, is the reward for serving the Light? It&#8217;s quite simple really, love. Love is the reward for serving the Light and the Creator. Every main &#8220;good&#8221; character has either ended up with their love of life or is soon to do so. <br /><br />Perrin &#8211; Faile<br />Mat &#8211; Tuon<br />Egwene &#8211; Gawyn<br />Morgase &#8211; Tallanvor<br />Siuan &#8211; Gareth<br />Etc.<br /><br />I think Morgase&#8217;s and Siuan&#8217;s destinies are the most descriptive. Both fell from power and ended up as a lowly Aes Sedai and, most likely, a minor noble. But both have found love. The characters that are followers of the Light, but use methods that are better placed under the Dark One have not found any love. I am thinking of Elaida, Niall, Valda and Sevanna to name a few. These people, that are neither &#8220;black&#8221; nor &#8220;white&#8221; but &#8220;grey&#8221;, will not get any &#8220;reward&#8221; at all. <br /><br />When a character has received the reward from the Light they are content with it. The only exemption from this is Rand and Lan. The ladies, Min, Elayne, Aviendha and Nynaeve, are content and happy. Rand and Lan are fighting something else; the will to live on. The reward was not enough. I will come back to this in end of this very confusing theory.  <br /><br /><br /><u><b>The Relationship Between Rand and Lan</b></u><br /><br />When reading through the series the last time it hit me how similar Rand and Lan are:<br /><br />-	Both are basically orphans.<br />-	Both fight a lone fight against the Dark One and his minions<br />-	They have a similar view of honor and duty<br />-	Both have lost the reason to live on. <br />-	Both have forgotten laughter and tears and so on<br /><br />Lan is also the only teacher Rand has had that has not tried to influence the decisions Rand has made. Lan has taught Rand that it is duty and success that is important. It is also important to notice that Lan is the only &#8220;teacher&#8221; that has not been driven away by Rand. Rand has become more and more like Lan since the first Book. In Winters Heart they think alike, walk alike and behave in the same way. Lan is like a father to Rand and I think both Rand and Lan are somewhat aware of this relationship. <br /><br />Now, why is this important or relevant? My point is that if Rand is to learn laughter and tears he has to be influenced by his most trusted teacher &#8211; Lan. I say influenced because it is my belief that he will learn this from several different characters in the series.<br /><br /><br /><u><b>How Rand Will Be Taught Laughter and Tears</b></u><br /><br />It is too simple for Rand to be taught to be human from just one person. The main characters to teach Rand will be four: Min, Aviendha, Elayne and Moiraine. Why does the Dragon Reborn need three ladies when all other characters needed just one? One reason could be the connection to the respective nations the girls come from: Aviendha &#8211; the Aiel, Elayne &#8211; Andor/wetlands. But Min does not have this connection. If it was only this that mattered then she would, logically, come from the Ath&#8217;an Miere. There is another role for these girls to play though. Namely to remind the Dragon Reborn what he is fighting for. It is also interesting to know that it was this description that Rand used to describe Aviendha to Min in Lord of Chaos. Elayne is also the very first character that has become pregnant. This will have, most likely, tremendous importance on Rand&#8217;s development to a more &#8220;human&#8221; ruler. <br /><br />Moiraine will at some point <i>have</i> to come back to life. When she does, she will most likely try to find Rand again. It is also my belief that being dead will have changed Moiraine to a more human character. This and the large probability that she will marry Thom will make her a very strong influence on Rand. Even before she had his trust. She will most likely guide Rand to laughter and tears. Moiraine will also influence Lan hugely. She is the very reason for Lan&#8217;s current state. If she is alive Lan will no longer have to seek death or feel responsible for her death. Nynaeve will than &#8220;save&#8221; Lan and he in turn will say to Rand that there is indeed things worth living and fighting for. Of course, other characters will play a role in this transformation too but they will not be as vital. <br /><br /><br /><u><b>Cadsuane&#8217;s Teachings</b></u><br /><br />Cadsuane&#8217;s role in the book has puzzled me for some time. When she first appeared in <u>Crown of Swords</u>, I was irritated that yet another strong women was introduced. What was the purpose with her!? First I thought that she was the one to teach Rand and his Asha&#8217;man laughter and tears because Min had a viewing about Cadsuane teaching Rand, something he and they wouldn&#8217;t like, and Cadsuane&#8217;s alliance with Sorilea. Now I think different. <br /><br />The keyword in the relationship between Rand and his Asha&#8217;man versus Cadsuane is that she will teach him and the Asha&#8217;man something, and I hardly think the Asha&#8217;man need to be taught laughter and tears. They may be arrogant as kings but the Aes Sedai are as arrogant and the Asha&#8217;man allows wives and children. Mr. Jordan likes to play with his readers a lot so it would be too simple that we could figure what Cadsuane&#8217;s role will be. <br /><br />Why was she introduced then? To answer that you have to see when she was introduced in the saga. Why was she not introduced earlier? She could have had ample of time to find Rand and become an advisor before he got all &#8220;hard&#8221;. It is important to look at how other perceives her. All Aes Sedai that have heard of her are in awe of her. She is probably the only Aes Sedai except Egwene (possible Elayne and Nynaeve) that the Wise Ones respect. I also believe that she is the &#8220;leader&#8221;, if you could call it that, for the Aes Sedai that haven&#8217;t come back to either of the two White Towers. She was introduced precisely when the first Aes Sedai become sworn to Rand. This is very convenient for Mr. Jordan. <br /><br />The Aes Sedai with Egwene and Egwene herself are furious with Rand because they think he is forcing Aes Sedai to serve him under oath. The Asha&#8217;man are very wary of Aes Sedai since they have been attacked by them and at the same time feel superior to the Aes Sedai because they have won and have 50 Aes Sedai captive. Those captives are no more then slaves. They have no will of their own at all. This is a huge gap to bridge. This is what Cadsuane will do. She will teach Rand and the Asha&#8217;man to trust and treat Aes Sedai like equals. This is not a thing they will like. Seeing Cadsuane as Rand&#8217;s advisor and the one in charge of the Aes Sedai that have chosen to follow him will settle the Aes Sedai in the rebel camp. They will come to understand that the Asha&#8217;man are equals to them now thanks to Cadsuane. <br /><br /><br /><br />I hope you could follow me throw these linked theories. If not, we will see who was right when the saga ends! I have thought of these different theories a long time and I think the are connected. I really hope to see a discussion spring from this small contribution. Please feel free to criticize.<br /><br />Peter!<br /><br /><br /> </p>


created: 2002-01-17 13:28:44
subject: The Astrological Wheel of Randland
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<p>This is something I've been thinking about for a while and I haven't seen anything of the like on this site.  It seems fairly well established that RJ has drawn from numerous sources of mythology and the like in creating his world, and this seems to be true of astrology as well.  Whether this is entirely intentional or not is probably subject to debate, but I thought some of the following points were worth mentioning.<br /><br />Probably most salient is that there are twelve primary characters that match up almost perfectly to the twelve signs of the Zodiac.  Please agree of disagree, but, going from Aries forward: <br /><br />Aries=Aviendha; <br />Taurus=Perrin; <br />Gemini=Mat; <br />Cancer=Egwene; <br />Leo=Elayne; <br />Virgo=Faile; <br />Libra=Min; <br />Scorpio=Nynaeve; <br />Sagittarius=Rand; <br />Capricorn=Lan; <br />Aquarius=Thom Merillin; <br />Pisces=Moiraine. <br /><br />Most of these are pretty straightforward, if you're familiar with the Zodiac.  Aries, like Aviendha, is a fiery, aggressive, even violent sign.  Taurus and Perrin are slow but sure, stubborn, tied to physical locations, slow to anger but furious once angered.  Gemini and Mat have trouble staying with a single woman -- good luck Tuon -- and gambling is definitely associated with Gemini.  Cancer, the moon's sign, is *the* sign for dreaming, which is Egwene.  Leo=the Lion=Elayne (and probably Morgase too); the high-chinned pride and dramatic style are dead giveaways.  Faile as a Virgo is the only one that I feel is debatable, but notice that she is good with knives, crafty, and adept at running a household, all of which are Virgoan qualities.  Libra, like Min, tends toward one-on-one relationships, as well as a particular affinity for style and appearance; Min's viewings are by nature a one-to-one phenomenon and she has always been particularly conscious of what she's wearing.  Nynaeve as a Scorpio is a no-brainer; the anger, the obstinacy, her sheer intensity, all fit.  Sagittarius is a fire sign, tends to look for the big picture, the organizing principle, travels far and wide... the sign of the Dragon Reborn.  Lan and Capricorn are pragmatic and get down to business; Capricorn is a very serious sign.  Aquarians are often said to be defined by things such as a tendency not to fit in, a keen sense of the surrounding social situation, and a very large mental space.  Thom has all of these, from his look as a Gleeman to his skill at Daes Dae'Mar to his abilities as a bard.  And finally, Pisces is often called the mystical sign, and tends to have a very spiritual and almost hidden magic to it, which sums Moiraine up nicely.<br /><br />There's also a very nice logic in the relationships between these characters.  In astrology, signs that are in trine (same element) are the most harmonious relationships, while sextiles also tend to be smooth (fire &amp; water or earth &amp; air), while squared signs have more difficulty, and opposing signs tend toward a blend of having things in common yet having to struggle with them.  <br /><br />So the fire signs are Rand, Elayne, and Aviendha, all trined, and of course all bonded together and in love with one another.  The earth signs are Perrin, Faile, and Lan; Lan isn't really a part of Perrin's world, but I think it's clear that the two men understand what the other is about, and Perrin and Faile are married obviously.  The water signs are Moiraine, Egwene, and Nynaeve, and while it's always difficult to get along with an Aes Sedai, you can see how these three operate for the same sort of place; and the Air signs are Mat, Thom, and Min, again with Min not really connected to the other two but Mat and Thom buddies of old.  <br /><br />Min is sextiled to Rand and Elayne -- she gets along well with both -- but in opposition to Aviendha, with whom she has a little more difficulty.  Elayne and Nynaeve are squared to each other; recall the journey from Tanchico to Salidar for confirmation of that one.  Thom and Elayne are in opposition -- and so would Thom and Morgase be for that matter.  Rand and Mat are in opposition.  Lan and Moiraine would be sextiled; Lan and Nynaeve would also be sextiled.  Mat and Moiraine would be in square; so are Rand and Faile, and Rand and Moiraine too.  Anyway it goes on and on like this; sketch out a zodiac circle and fill in the names to see all the relationships at work.  The basic theme is that characters in trine get along splendidly; characters in sextile are often in important relationships with each other; characters in opposition also have important relationships but tend to have opposing interests; characters in square fight or argue; and the rest of them (semi-sextiles and quincunxes) have relatively tame relationships.<br /><br />Anyway, I thought that this really interesting.  If anyone disagrees with these assignments, I'd certainly welcome input.  (Or if anyone wants to take a guess at the rising signs!)  Clearly there are more than 12 main characters, but I think those are the primary twelve, one for each sign of the zodiac.  I'd be interested to hear if people have guesses for Gawyn, Galad, Cadsuane, Tam, Taim, or Siuan or whoever; maybe there's a secondary circle of 12 or some such thing.  I tried to place the Forsaken in a similar arrangement but I kept deciding that they're all Scorpios. <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />There's actually more to my astrological theory of WOT but I'll leave it there for now.  The second part of my theory has to do with the Precession of the Equinoxes -- i.e. which &quot;Age&quot; the third age is.  Astrological ages last about 2200 years -- a little shorter than the Third Age I think -- but it's interesting to work out what Age it *might* be, then trace it back from there.  My personal opinion is that Randland is in an Earthen Age -- and not a Taurean Age -- making it either an Age of Virgo or an Age of Capricorn.  Capricorn fits to the bill nicely for me; the sheer amount of struggle and hard work that was needed to keep things working after TBOTW fits a Capricorn Bill.  And if this were the case, it would make the Age of Legends an Age of Aquarius (the equinoxes precess backwards) -- in other words an Age of grand discoveries and social cohesion.  Moreover, that would make *our* Age the Age before the Age of Legends (we're coming out of the Age of Pisces right now), which fits with some of the early Merc and Mosc stuff and the moon landing reference.  And finally, the Fourth Age would be the Age of Sagittarius -- which is Rand's own sign -- which again fits nicely.  (The one good counter-argument to all this is that the Light/Dark dichotomy is very Libran, so the Third Age could be the Virgo Age after all...)<br /><br />Any thoughts?  Does anyone even have any idea what I'm talking about?  And moreover, do you think Robert Jordan did any of this intentionally, or do you think it's just another natural manifestation of truth?</p><p><b>Burr says:</b> I don't know much at all about astrology, so I won't comment on that regard.  However, I would like to point out that you have purposely chosen characters that are related to each other (as you could just as easily have picked out Gareth as the bull, Amys as the dreamer, etc.)  You go on to claim that their relationships are due to their signs, despite the fact that you placed them in their signs due to their relationships.  You are using circular logic.  <br /><br />Moreover, as there are 12 signs of the zodiac (and 12 having proportionately many factors: 1, 2, 3, 4, and 6), we should expect to see such patterns as you described in a group of generally related characters, even if that was never intended by the author.  If character 1 (or 12) isn't closely related to character 6 (half of twelve), chances are it will be closely related to characters 4 and 8 (cumulative thirds of 12).  Therefore, the lack of close relation between characters Min and Thom speaks volumes against your theory as a whole.<br /><br /><br /> </p>


created: 2002-01-18 12:14:46
subject: Egwene: A Heroine of the Horn
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<p>Starting with what we already know. We know from tGHotH that there are about one hundred heroes linked to the horn that are spun out as the pattern needs them. We know that Rand is one of these heroes, and that Mat (and possibly Tuon--there are paired lover heroes) probably is as well. Birgitte is out there, as well as Gaidal Cain, but could there be more possibly?<br /> <br />   We have observed both Rand and Mat knowing things that ordinary people don't like when Rand told Lanfear that she loved power in tSR (this was before Lews Therin was in his head) and Mat yelling Manatheren war cries in the Old Tongue. Egwene sometimes feels like she can almost understand the Old Tongue. In ch. 18 of tEotW, Egwene announces that she almost understands Mat's war cries and again later when Mat is being healed by the Aes Sedai in tDR ch. 18 she feels that the meaning of his words are just out of sight. If this was mentioned only once, I would attribute it to the Old Blood and leave it at that, but I think that if RJ put it in twice it has some meaning to it.<br /> <br />  The only other logical conclusion that I can reach is that Egwene is also bound to the horn. This leaves the question of who else she has been known as, and considering her role, personality, and accomplishments both past and future (come on, does anyone really think that she won't end up saving the Tower and becoming the Amyrlin Seat?) I have come up with three likely choices.<br /> <br />   The first logical choice is Deane Aryman, who was the Amyrlin that deposed Bonwhin after her blundering with Hawkwing. This is especially likely since it has been speculated that Elaida is Bonwhin reborn. Since the heroes have certain attributes, they sometimes perform the same actions (e.g. Hawkwing as a great battle commander). This would fit in well with Egwene's present circumstances.<br /> <br />   The second choice is Rashima Kerenmosa, also called the Battle Amyrlin who won many engagements during the Trolloc Wars. While this choice is slightly more unlikely than the first, we all know that Egwene has no lack of courage and that she could easily fight in battles. Whether or not she can command them, we do not know but with Garth Bryne at her elbow she could easily learn. The best support for these first two theories is in LoC ch. 49 when Merana decides that they will need another Rashima or Deane to make the Tower strong again. This is exactly what they may have gotten.<br /> <br />   The third possibility is Latra Posae Deccume who opposed Lews Therin in the Age of Legends. While this is less likely than the first two (I couldn't find any support for it, but I'll include this anyway), it is possible. Recall that when Mat blew the Horn, one of the things that Hawkwing said is that he has fought with and AGAINST Rand many times (emphasis mine). This shows that another hero may work against the Dragon, as Latra Posae did when condemning Lewis Therin's original plan involving women to help place the seals on the Dark One's prison. We all know that Egwene often disagrees with Rand and has no reservations about making her opinion known to him (if you don't know this you REALLY haven&#8217;t been paying attention). The interesting thing is that she apparently survived at least some of the breaking and did much of cleanup work long enough to earn the title &quot;Cutter of the Shadow.&quot; This would fit well if she survives Tarmon Gaidon and does some reconstruction afterwards. <br /> <br />   She may have been any one of these, all three, or someone else that I haven't thought of.<br /> <br />   I know that this theory is already long, but forgive me for a side note. It is possible that Egwene has more Talents than just Dreamwalking. In tGH her sul'dam is excited because she can find metal ores, so this may indicate that she has the original talent of Delving. Simply being able to find ores may not have much affect in the story line, but I believe that it is stated somewhere (in the glossary of a book that I don't have on hand right now) that the Talent Delving also included being able to prevent or cause earthquakes and avalanches. This would be interesting. Also, in the same glossary entry there is an unnamed Talent that allows the possessor to cause the same effect of a ta'veren within a limited area. I believe there is evidence that she does this in PoD. Talamenes asks if she is sure if she is not ta'veren also when he suddenly agrees to her advice. Later that day, when she calls for a Declaration of War two sitters act out of conduct, one speaking when she wasn't supposed to and another lashes out at Lelaine for not standing. These could very similar to the effects of ta'veren that we have seen already. This Tallent could prove to be especially interesting.<br /> <br />   Excuse the length, but I hope that reading this has been worthwhile. Now that I am running out of things to say (for now), I shall say goodbye.</p><p><b>Burr says:</b> As you said you couldn't see any other logical explanation for her almost understanding the Old Tongue, I should point out that some have theorized in the past that Egwene is the past Queen of Manetheren (please forgive me for not recalling her name.)  That could explain Egwene's understanding without requiring her to be a Heroine of the Horn.  On the other hand, even if that theory were true, it might be likely that the past Queen of Manetheren was a Heroine of the Horn, considering her awesome and powerful self-sacrifice that ended the battle against Manetheren.<br /><br /><br /> </p>


created: 2002-01-18 12:27:11
subject: RJ, Logic Problems, and &quot;obvious&quot;
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<p>Robert Jordan has created a world of such intricate depth with The Wheel of Time that many of us get drawn into various questions of &quot;who did what and where.&quot; Of course, being on the Theory Post, you already know that.<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />What is perhaps most aggravating, however, is that many of the questions that have been in debate for years get a response from Jordan along the lines of &quot;the answer should be obvious.&quot; (I'll go into RAFO later.)<br /><br />That leads us to wonder exactly how RJ defines &quot;obvious.&quot; For example, he's told us that we should all know where all of the Forsaken are and whom they're masquerading as--and yet, we still end up with debates such as the entire &quot;Taimandred&quot; series. (Thank the Creator that WH killed that one, right?)<br /><br />Now here's my proposal: RJ is obviously a writer who loves to put together complex puzzles, and as a person with a physics degree I think it's entirely possible that he might be a fan of logic. (After all, he did devote an entire Ajah to it.) One specific type of logic puzzle is called a &quot;logic problem.&quot;  In a logic problem, you're given a list of several different people, as well as several attributes that each has one of, and you have to figure out who has which attribute(s) by following various clues and eliminating the impossible. Logic problems rely heavily on the axiom stated so well by the fictitious Sherlock Holmes, &quot;when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth.&quot; In a logic problem, it's almost impossible to figure out more than one or two people and their attributes at a glance. It's only after following every single clue that all of the information falls together. But when it does, even though little could be deduced at the beginning, the solution you reach is &quot;obvious.&quot;<br /><br />This, I believe, is where we find such difficulty in answering our WOT questions: the answer is only obvious if you logically follow EVERY clue. With just one clue missing, everything falls apart.<br /><br />The only &quot;logical&quot; way to solve this problem would be to have every single clue at hand when trying to answer a WOT question. But as I've seen so far, most of us feel lucky if we can remember which BOOK a clue was given in, let alone the exact quote and page number.<br /><br />But why go to all of that work? Can't we just RAFO?<br /><br />Unfortunately, I have this sinking feeling that the answer is no. Yes, we've all heard RAFO far too many times: but we've also been told that we already have the answers for some questions. I suspect that RAFO means we don't have all of the needed CLUES yet, but I doubt all of our questions will be answered in a straightforward way, even when (IF?) the last book is published.<br /><br />And yes, I do apologize for pointing out this dreadful possibility.</p><p><b>Burr says:</b> Ack!  You...DEFEATIST!  <br /><br />*proudly puts on a Holmes-style cap and marches vigilantly about the theory board, grumbling*<br /><br /><br /> </p>


created: 2002-01-18 15:59:31
subject: Belief and order strengthen the seals
body:
<p>I was reading the theories about Fel and why he died and it seems to me that everyone is on the wrong track, at least partially. Fel discovered that belief and order strengthen the seals. Chaos weakens them. That is why the DO has issued a command for the Forsaken to build chaos in the world. He is trying to escape as soon as possible. The broken seals were all found after a major chaotic event such as a huge battle. Fel's message had nothing to do with the Ashaman.</p><p><b>Raserei says:</b> Hmm, I like this idea.  I may be wrong, but I thought that after each major battle, dependent on who won, a seal would either be broken or still intact.  Like in Falme, Rand won, so the seal was still intact...(unless there were two, in which case, one was intact, the other was crumbled)<br /><br />Anyway, nicely done.<br /><br /><br /> </p>


created: 2002-01-22 13:46:42
subject: Teslyn and Joline
body:
<p>I've read much speculation over the two Aes Sedai that are on the balance scales that Matrim is holding but I didn't see anything to the effect of what I thought about the matter.<br /><br />Simply, I feel that the two Aes Sedai on the balance scale is Teslyn and Joline.<br /><br />Here is why:  At this point in the story we know that Joline is Black Ajah and that Teslyn probably isn't.  I think that in the next book Mat is going to be forced to choose between Teslyn and Joline as far as who he will take with him in leaving Altara to get back to Caemlyn (or where ever he his headed).  I think it's so dire or important for which he chooses because since Joline is Black Ajah she will probably betray him when she get a chance and kill him (difficult using the Power with his medallion, but not with your standard knife or darkfriend warder).  If Mat gets captured or killed that is bad, because from what Min sees it requires the three Ta'veren together to overwhelm the forces of the Dark.  So the obvious choice that Mat will come to is Teslyn (he's going to make that choice because he's ta'veren, and one of Jordan's main characters) but what is so important about Teslyn?<br /><br />At the end of Winter's Heart, we come to understand that it was Teslyn that had interests in protecting Elayne and she doesn't really describe why.  Lightfriend?  If you believe that I got some beachfront property in Malkier for ya, really beautiful.  But from this I am lead to believe that it is important that Mat will choose Teslyn over Joline (also if you remember Joline was one of the Aes Sedai directly supporting Elaida and her coup to unseat Siuan Sanche as Amyrlin).  I think Teslyn is one Red who is finally getting the picture.  I think she was in Ebou Dar long enough to see that Elayne and Nynaeve (two wet behind the ears Aes Sedai) were ordering around seasoned veterans of the Game.  Telsyn had to wonder why, she may have believed that she was acting for the greater good, or being associated with young Matrim Cauthon (pretty much Dragonsworn) perhaps aiding the Dragon Reborn which even Elaida acknowledged as one male channeler who cannot be immediately be severed.  SO, next book we'll know for certain who Mat will chose, and perhaps have a better idea of what Teslyn is about.<br /><br />Dovienya,<br />Rafiq<br />Shen an Calhar<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/mat.gif" border="0" /></p><p><b>Burr says:</b> Well, I don't know if I'd say that Teslyn is getting the <i>big</i> picture just yet, but it does seem as though Jordan is setting her up to accept it.<br /><br /><br /> </p>


created: 2002-01-22 15:01:34
subject: Almost Ta'veren
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<p>The concept of ta'veren is one of my favorite features of the Wheel of Time.  It reminds me much of the Hindu concept of the avatar, or a great soul destined to move humanity in a certain direction.<br /><br />One thing I have being thinking about is the metaphor of a ta'veren being the main thread in which the rest of a tapestry is woven around.  If a ta'veren is the central thread, that must mean that that all the threads that are very close to the ta'veren are also more important to the pattern of the tapestry than the other threads.  In this fashion (sorry about the puns), these immediate threads are 'almost ta'veren.'  <br /><br />Loial affirms this theory when he mentions ta'veren in TEoTW, saying that ta'veren and those closest to them have less freedom in the pattern.  We all know the Wheel bends itself to great lengths in order to accomodate Rand's coming change.  I also believe that the pattern must bend itself to a strong extent to order to accomodate all the strings that are closest to ta'veren (or everyone that Min sees with the flashing lights in the darkness around their heads).  All of the characters that are closest to Rand, Mat, and Perrin have been seen to do near miraculous things.  For example, Nynaeve learning to heal stilled channelers, and Egwene becoming Amyrlin.<br /><br />I think it may even be possible for the other 'almost ta'veren' characters to even exhibit ta'veren properties at certain times.  One example, among many, is when Egwene gets Talmanes to confide with her about his plans to stay with King Rhoedric.  Talmanes even says to Egwene, &quot;Are you sure you're not ta'veren?&quot;  <br /><br />It is my belief that Rand, Mat, and Perrin cannot be killed or bumped off until they have fulfilled the change that they are meant to impart to the pattern.  I personally believe Rand is meant to bring about the coming of the new age.  I do not yet think the outcome is determined in the pattern whether Rand will stay with the light, or sway to the shadow, but I do believe that Rand will last as long as the Last Battle.<br /><br />Likewise, I believe that those closest to the 3 ta'veren also must survive and live out their full destinies in order for Rand, Mat, and Perrin, to be successful in bringing about the change they were meant to bring about. <br /><br />I know this theory is a little basic, but I just want to bring a few different ideas to the WoT discussion.  I love wotmania, by the way, it's a great project!</p><p><b>Raserei says:</b> I love this idea.  It'd for one detail why RJ is covering them as well as Mat, Perrin, and Rand.  It would also show why Elayne can make angreals, and Min with Viewing, and Egwene with Dreaming, because they are stad out and are noticed, and are sort of imparted with these gifts.<br /><br />Nicely done.<br /><br /><br /> </p>


created: 2002-01-24 10:38:40
subject: Child Byar = Demandred
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<p>Here is my theory on the identity of Demandred.<br /><br />I think he is posing as Byar of the Children of the Light, and here's why.  To our knowledge, the Whitecloaks are the only organization or body of people that has not been influenced in some way by the Forsaken; and knowing RJ, it would only be logical to assume that they are next.<br /><br />In The Eye of the World when Perrin and Egwene are captured by the Whitecloaks is the first time that we meet Child Byar.  He fits all of the descriptions that we have of Demandred so far.  He is tall, has no emotion in his voice, and obviously does not like taking orders from Geofram Bornhald.<br /><br />Also, Altara is in the south and it has been said that Demandred's markings have been all over the south.  Plus, Byar is not a high ranking member of the Children of the Light, which would correlate to Demandred being only recently released from the Seals.<br /><br />Did anybody notice how easy it was for the Seanchan to take over Altara?  The orders from the DO were to spread chaos; I think maybe supplying the Seanchan with plans to the fortress would qualify as chaos.  What better way to spread chaos than sparking an invasion?<br /><br />Well I hope that this theory is a little different than the ones we've been reading lately and I am interested to see what everyone thinks!</p><p><b>Burr says:</b> It's an interesting hypothesis.  Byar is certainly meddlesome within his circle of influence, but to me he always seemed too petty to count as anyone important.  On the other hand, with the way everything connects back and forth in RJ's books, maybe I have disregarded Child Byar too quickly.<br /><br /><br /> </p>


created: 2002-01-26 14:43:08
subject: In depth with Fain's dagger
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<p>Fain's dagger is more than what it appears to be. If we look back to the first scene where RJ introduced the dagger, there are several unresolved questions. RJ is definitely hinting at something. In my humble opinion, the ruby hilted dagger is as important to this series as the Horn of Valere. After all, RJ has devoted an extensive of amount of time to the dagger. Recall that The Great Hunt was simultaneously about the hunt of both the dagger and the Horn. <br /><br />    When Mat, Rand, and Perrin were all in the treasure room with Mordeth, he said that the boys could take some treasure in return for helping him pack his saddlebags.  But there was one thing Mordeth did not want the boys to take. Specifically, the quote was, &quot;Panting shook his head as if he could not decide. 'Take what you want.  Except... Except...&quot; (pg. 284)<br /><br />    Mordeth did not reveal what one object the boys could not take, because Rand suddenly noticed that Mordeth didn't have a shadow and Rand said his thoughts aloud.  Mordeth then assumed the attacking position, and surely would have killed the 3 ta'veren, but something happened.<br /><br />Mat picked up the dagger. Knowing Mat's ta'veren luck, I believe that Mat picked up exactly the one object that Mordeth did not want them to take. <br />After Mat picked up the dagger, Mordeth suddenly retreated and left the room, squeezing through the wall in much the same fashion as a gholam. <br /><br />I can think of three possible explanations for Mordeth retreating.<br /><br />1. Mordeth wanted Mat to take the dagger and bring it the outside world so that Mordeth could finally leave Shadar Logoth and begin infecting the whole world.<br /><br />2. The dagger was the one object that Mordeth didn't want Mat to take, and Mat taking the dagger somehow gave Mat a small command over Mordeth, thus sparing the 3 ta'veren's lives. I use the analogy of the ring of power in the Lord of the Rings. Bilbo found the ring randomly in a cave, much like Mat found the dagger randomly in Shadar Logoth. Later, in Tolkien's trilogy, Frodo wielded the ring in such a way that Gollum had to obey Frodo.  The dagger may have been similar, giving Mat the power to keep Mordeth from killing him. In several ways, I believe the Shadar Logoth dagger may be similar to the ring of power. <br /><br />3. A combination of number 1 and 2. Mat having the dagger prevented Mordeth from killing him, but Mordeth was did not mind, because Mat would still take the dagger outside Shadar Logoth and spread the 'mission of Mordeth.'<br /><br />     I think that number 3 is the most likely. As far as we know, Mordeth has never let his victims escape Shadar Logoth. Mashadar killed a whole army of shadowspawn during the Trolloc War and has since killed several other characters, including Liah and Sammael. For this reason, it seems quite probable that Mordeth would have wasted the 3 lads if Mat had not picked up the dagger. <br /><br />      Mordeth let Mat take the dagger outside of Shadar Logoth and later the dagger is captured by Fain, recaptured by Mat, and then recaptured again by Fain.  <br /><br />     This dagger is essential to the WoT.  Notice that Fain traveled all the way back to White Tower just to retrieve the dagger.  The dagger was the first thing that Fain grabbed.  Fain had the thought to grab the dagger even before the Horn of Valere.  Also of note is that Fain's life did not depend on the dagger in the same way that Mat's did when Mat had the dagger.  Fain-Mordeth, wanted the dagger for the power it gave him.  <br /><br />      What power does the dagger impart?  We do not know yet.  One idea that I have is that the dagger may be a kind of ter'angreal.  The dagger may have been created in order to give one great power to oppose the Dark One.  Yet, unwittingly the dagger destroyed what it was meant to protect.  I believe that the Mordeth-evil may have even brought into the world when the dagger was created.  I speculate that the Mordeth-evil has always existed, but it just had existed in a different dimension, much like the Aelfinn and Eelfinn.  The dagger was the ter'angreal that helped bridged this evil into Randland.<br /><br />      So, similar to the ring in the Lord of the Rings, the dagger may possibly control the Mordeth&#8217;s evil.  This evil will exist until the dagger is destroyed.  But no one can wield the dagger without becoming tainted themselves.<br /><br />      I think in future books we will see Fain become increasingly powerful and Fain will later have a very important role in the last battle.  I will let others theorize about Fain's future, I just wanted to introduce everyone to my theory about the importance of Fain's dagger.  Let us not underestimate this part of Jordan's anthology.</p><p><b>Burr says:</b> I like the idea of the dagger being a ter'angrael with power independent of Mordeth rather than a part of his own power.  But such a conclusion brings a whole lot more questions with it.  Who made the ter'angrael dagger, and why didn't they see its faults?  How did Mordeth, just a man, get ahold of such a powerful item?<br /><br /><br /> </p>


created: 2002-01-27 12:00:00
subject: Sarendred
body:
<p>I first wrote this as a response to a previous theory about Child Byar being Demandred.  After some thought, though, I figured there was enough new ideas in it to warrant a theory of its own.  It is not as precise as I would like, but unfortunately I do not have the time to clean it up.<br /><br />I have been going through the WCs trying to figure out if Demandred is with them.  I think I can safely rule out Asuwana (the head inquisitor) and Eamon Valda because of their PoV (in LoC).  Both of them rant in their heads about the witches and the way they rant is not like a Forsaken's disdain for AS.  Dain Bornhald can be ruled out because of his PoV in tSR.  He just isn't evil enough.  Plus Dain has a known father and is probably well known.  Demandred would probably not go through the trouble of assuming the identity of someone with well-known connections with low rank (no real access to Pedron Niall).  It would be much easier to make up a completely different identity with no real history and insert him in to a position of power through a high-ranking DF.  That leaves us with four WCs that I can think of that could be Demandred: Child Byar, Saren (a Questioner), Balwer (Niall's secretary), and the really big WC that Perrin fought in tSR and the spy master that Eamon Valder killed.  The last two can be eliminated because of lack of importance and being dead, respectively.<br /><br />So what about Child Byar?  I don't think that Child Byar is Demandred for a number of reasons.  The first is that he isn't in a good position to cause trouble.  Second he seems to have a well-established relationship with Geofram Bornhald (although Compulsion may take care of that).  Third, I seem to remember a PoV from Child Byar where he observes G. Bornhald dying in tGH.  If I remember correctly, he cared too much about the elder Bornhald and knew too little about the Seanchan.  Plus he had ample opportunity to kill Padan Fain when it was well know that PF was a target of the DO.<br /><br />That leaves us with two possible WC (if indeed Demandred is posing as a WC) Saren and Balwer.  Of the two, Balwer would be the most dramatic (since he is with Perrin).  There is a lot of evidence to support Balwer.  (Balwer's body type is completely different, though.  Balwer is short.)  Balwer seems to be in charge of the WC network of spies and diplomatic troublemakers.  It was most likely Balwer who arranged for the rebellion in Tear (which definitely had WC support), for instance.  He would have complete access to Pedron Niall and would be in a position that wouldn't be difficult to secure quickly.  (Who really cares about who is secretary?)  It doesn't appear to be a job that is needed all the time (at one point Pedron Niall has to summon his secretary) so it is conceivably a job where his absence would be missed when he goes about other Forsaken activities.  In short, it is a perfect job for a Forsaken (which Halima recognizes as well).<br /><br />Despite all of this my money would be on Saren (damn I can't remember his first name) for being Demandred.  We see Saren 3 times (that I am aware of).  When we first meet him (tGH) he is the second in command under Carridin (a known high level DF in the Questioners).  He is responsible for slaughtering a whole town of people in order to keep them quiet for his meeting with the elder Bornhald.  He is described as tall with a hook nose.  (If I remember correctly both of these are Demandred qualities.)  He is aware of the Seanchan (calling them strangers), but uncharacteristically says that they might not be DFs (despite probably knowing about Damane).<br /><br />The second time we see him he comes to escort Morgase when she just &quot;happens&quot; to see the fateful hanging of Paitr (the DF boy from EotW who was going to &quot;rescue&quot; Morgase).  Saren was in Pedron Niall's office when he was &quot;told&quot; to escort Morgase to Pedron so we know he has access to Pedron Niall.  Morgase at the time remarks that she has heard of Saren but has never seen him (a sign that he is often absent).<br /><br />The third time we see him he is with Asuwana (the high inquisitor who plots Niall's assassination.)  Again we see him with access to a key figure.  He also makes a comment about wanting the witch's (Morgase's) throat.  This doesn't seem consistent with Morgase's thought about how Saren treated her.<br /><br />Putting it all together we have a tall hook nosed man whose first known assignment was in a position that the Forsaken could easily infiltrate as the subordinate of a high placed DF (Carridin). (The Questioners seem to be a small group that other WC don't pay too much attention-ripe for infiltration.)  He quickly gains access to people of power-Niall and Asuwana.  He doesn't consider the Seanchan as DFs.  He is missing some of the time.  His behavior doesn't seem to be consistent.<br /><br />Finally, for those who don't think that the WC has a Forsaken attached, consider how much chaos the WC caused in LoC (where we know Demandred pleased the DO).  (Niall was probably on the list of those who should die at the beginning of LoC.)  Consider as well how much the WCs helped the Seanchan.  When the Seanchan needed chaos for their first invasion, the WCs provided it.  When the Seanchan needed a little cover after there second invasion for them to take root Pedron Niall abruptly reversed course and quarantined the area.  When it wasn't possible to keep the Seanchan a secret Niall was killed and the WC army led out of harms way for the Seanchan to attack.  When the Seanchan's attacked the Amidicians its army was routed, but the WCs escaped!!  This leaves Demandred in charge of a large well-disciplined army on the prowl.  Which leads me to my final point.  We know that Demandred was primarily a general; he always returned to the field to try and defeat LTT.  What better place to get a large well disciplined army that would fight the DR than the WCs?<br /><br />For those of you who have made it to the end (and have read the middle) thanks.  I hope I at least gave food for thought.   For those of you who have skipped to the end: shame on you <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /> , or maybe not.</p><p><b>Burr says:</b> But if the plan was for Paitr &amp; Co. to &quot;rescue&quot; Morgase, why did Demandred allow the Darkfriends to hang?  Even if the Paitr's mission was ordered by another Forsaken instead of the DO himself, it seems that Demandred would have maintained more control over the situation if he had helped them out instead.<br /><br /><br /> </p>


created: 2002-01-28 11:57:40
subject: The Dark One Doesn't Need Ta'veren
body:
<p>I was reading some old theories on <i>ta'veren</i> suggesting that the Forsaken, Ishamael/Moridin, at least, were a kind of dark <i>ta'veren</i>, when it occurred to me that the Dark One may not even need them.  If one thinks of the pattern as being like a graph of space and time, (and I think that with a physics degree, Robert Jordan would like this one,) one could then propose that <i>ta'veren</i> act like extremely massive bodies do on the fabric of space and time: they warp it so that it &quot;curves&quot; around them more tightly.  Also, having more mass, they are less affected by other objects around them, and so continue on a less easily affected course through space.  That would be analogous to a <i>ta'veren's</i> seeming inability to turn aside from his destiny.  In the meantime, though, Ishamael could stand right beside the force that was Hawkwing, and be unnaffected, which leads up to why I don't feel the Dark One needs <i>ta'veren</i>: most likely he could &quot;pull&quot; through the cords on the Forsaken, like hanging on a rope keeps somone suspended from the more immediate effect of gravity-falling.  It is quite probable to me that only the Creator can actually make threads of the pattern <i>ta'veren</i>.  I haven't seen one instance of the DO creating, only altering, as his inability to bring someone who was balefired back indicates.  The thread just isn't there for him to play with anymore, and it's not his creation.</p><p><b>Vercingetorix says:</b> This is an interesting concept.  I especially like the way you described how a <i>ta'veren</i> acts on the pattern.  However, there is one thing I would like to mention about this.  If Ishamael were <i>ta'veren</i> then it would have the same effect as if the Dark One &quot;pulled&quot; through the cords.  Two bodies of identical mass will exert the same pull on each other and thus not move at all.<br /><br />What does everyone else think about this?<br /><br /><br /> </p>


created: 2002-01-29 11:36:08
subject: Fain's Dagger
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<p>The story about Aridhol is about a city that went bad due to the influence of Mordeth. This created Mashadar, but where did Mordeth came from? Was the evil of Mashadar created just because of the people of Aridhol, gone bad?  I don't think so. . .<br /><br />When Aginor meets Rand &amp; co. at tEotW, he refers to the dagger as &quot;an old friend, an old enemy.&quot;  Suppose that the dagger was created by one of the Forsaken or that it was a bad ter'angreal. Imagine that the DO knew about it, sent for a darkfriend (Mordeth) and told him to take it to Aridhol so it would eliminate this powerfull enemy during the Trolloc Wars. This would explain why Aginor called it &quot;an old friend&quot;.<br /><br />Imagine that the dagger had some strange effect that the evil it created in Aridhol (Mashadar) could not be controlled by the DO. So Mashadar became an enemy for the DO to (&quot;old enemy&quot;<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/wink.gif" border="0" /><br /><br />Any comments?</p><p><b>Raserei says:</b> Ooh, I like it.  Plus, it'd be a nice parallel between Mordeth from yore to Padan Fain of the present.  Almost like a reincarnation of Mordeth's thread.<br /><br />Nicely done.<br /><br /><br /> </p>


created: 2002-01-30 00:57:27
subject: The Creator And Dark Ones Are Muffins
body:
<p>All the facts suggest it! His inability to act against the Dark One is simply because how could he? No arms, no legs, just sesame seeds and chocolate goodness all wrapped up into one for all those who pass on. <br /><br />The Dark One is another Muffin, just stale, half his head bitten, his chocolate chips and sesame seeds picked off..... a mere shell of what it once was. The books don't tell you that the official Shayol Ghul breakfast consists of muffins to show their contempt....In the black of the banner of the Dark One is a black muffin, bitten and empty.  <br /><br /></p><p><b>Vercingetorix says:</b> This is by far the most well thought out theory I have ever read.  The great depth and detail in which you go into shows how much you reasearched this topic.  Great job!<br /><br /><br /> </p>


created: 2002-01-31 14:27:26
subject: The grand unified theory of WOT
body:
<p>I know that this is out there, but I am proposing an alternate theory on why Aes Sedai don't know as much about channeling anymore, and wrapping that around to get a picture of how to win Tarmon Gaidin.<br /><br />Could the cause be mental?<br /><br />Let me explain.  This may be lengthy.  First, it is necessary to remember how Robert Jordan describes the AOL: &quot;There was a time, before the Breaking, when men and women wielded the One Power side by side with no fear of any taint on saidin...and all matters of wonders were commonplace.&quot; (WoWot)  He goes on to describe a society where everything was nurtured to its full potential, including channeling.  Love was diffused through the society (like veins of gold?).  People existed to benefit others, and worked together on everything.  The greatest people, of course, were Aes Sedai, who existed only to benefit humankind (which leads to research).  Also, the society was full of confidence and a certain naivete.  People didn't believe that they could fail.  <br /><br />Now, All research was done by those who had the greatest skill in the power.  These people built the Sharom, the great floating sphere over the research college, Collam Daan (which was the sphere dropping and exploding in Rand's last flashback experience in Rhuidean).  RJ states the reason behind the Sharom as &quot;the designers of Collam Daan did it simply because they could&quot;.  From a psychological standpoint, that is illustrating a society with no fears, and no acknowledged limitations.  Supreme confidence, in other words.  The Aes Sedai had mastered all science, they had jo-cars and sho-wings, comparable to our automobiles and airplanes.  Pollution free, also.  <br /><br />Then the DO's prison is opened, and the war that follows destroys that confidence, shattering the &quot;American bubble&quot; type of naivete that the world had.  Everything is not just flowers and singing anymore.  There is no more certainty in the world.<br />Men and women Aes Sedai are separated, and the list goes on as to the detrimental effects of the DO.  <br />Now, fast forward to the present and we see a world that is medieval in comparison. (Forsaken repeatedly refer to these people as barbarians or something to that effect)  Why the devolution?  <br /><br />What if the taint caused this in an indirect way?  <br /><br />After the Breaking, everybody was recovering from basic shock.  Imagine waking up in a world totally different, mountains where the sea used to be, etc.  Pretty much starting from scratch.  Everybody started bickering over land, and they had no common cause except to fight for power.  There was no unity in the world.  Twice before the present, Westland almost united, and twice that unification was thwarted by Ishamael (I will get to that shortly).  <br /><br />This is how I see all of this relating to Aes Sedai.  First of all, these Aes Sedai after the breaking were very wary, hence the need for the three oaths at all, the displacement of things having to do with the power to the Aiel to hide and protect, and the division into Ajahs.  <br /><br />These Aes Sedai slowly start losing years on their lives (oath rod) and begin to weaken in strength (weeding out ability to channel by gentling all men, due to the taint).  They go from a world where the power was the answer to every question, to a world where the power is regulated and distrusted.  So, Aes Sedai focus more on manipulation through power, and lose the feeling that the One Power is the most important.  I know this sounds a little contrary, however, think about everything we have heard about Aes Sedai (except in battle, where they are only creating weapons).  The OP is not used that often, in research or anything like that, only for the most practical things.  <br /><br />In summary, Aes Sedai are knowingly weaker in the power, and are forced to focus on other things not having to do with the power because of worldly strife.  So, no unity with the men combined with the extenuating circumstances around them, and Aes Sedai could be said to be supplying a self-fulfilling mental block.  I know, this sounds random and obscure, but Robert Jordan has focused a lot on mental blocks in this series.  If they are there (the mental blocks), it is almost impossible to supersede them.  How are they broken?  Every example of a broken block in channeling has been shown to involve some kind of heavy stress or need.  Nynaeve's example fits here.  She surrendered because she thought she was going to die and wanted to live so badly (for Lan) that she saved herself.  Subsequently, she blew a hole in the boat.  However, RJ never mentioned her channeling consciously, it just happened.  Now, think about how wilders start channeling.  Need.  They have a conscious (and emotional) need and perform a &quot;miracle&quot; subconsciously.  RJ in the BWB states that wilders who go through the entire process from touching the source to breaking their block are usually stronger and accomplish more with the power.  <br /><br />What made me think of all of this was the theory post about how Rand healed Bela.  I don't think we have been shown how he did it by another example.  I think that his need forced him subconsciously to perform a miracle, for lack of a better word.  It may be as simple as &quot;he desperately did not want Bela to get left behind, so she didn't get left behind&quot;.  Where else have we seen this?  Egwene being healed by Nynaeve, Rand's trolloc-killing tornado in tSR, Rand's battle's with Ishamael, Rand's battle with just about any forsaken, for that matter.  These seemingly impossible events happen, and the doer has no idea what they are doing.  Now, lets analyze from a perspective of need.  What does intense need do to somebody?  It replaces rationality with panic.  Panic takes away those preconceived notions that a person has about causal relationships, forcing them to try to will something to happen even though rationally they would think it was impossible.  Now in real life we would call this desperate hope, because we don't have a way to make things happen.  However, the characters in these books do have a way: The One Power.  What if there were no limitations with the power?  What if the One Power was really what it says it is: the one and only power to do anything).  I believe that RJ has shown us something important.  The only limitation in these books is human limitation.  Human limitation is mental combined with ability, just like everything in our world.  However, Westland has been gifted with no limitation on ability (linking and sa'angreal, for example), so that just leaves mental.  <br />Examples of how this applies to the books are as follows:<br /><br />1. Aviendha's subconscious rendering of a gateway to get away from Rand.  He appeared when she was naked, which instigated an extreme, emotional reaction from Aviendha and she fled.  How did she flee?  She reached for the power and made it happen.<br /><br />2. Rand rescued his Keri, his quasi-mother from Ishamael.  How?  He just made it happen because the alternative was unthinkable for him.<br /><br />3. Nynaeve healing Logain and Flinn healing the Aes Sedai.  Both refused to believe that something could not be done, taking away their mental limitation. Combine that with a frustration on societal limitations, people telling you that you can't do something, and it happens.  (Also, remember that Nynaeve uses all 5 subsections of the power to heal, as opposed to just a few like the yellows.  She just thinks it &quot;feels right&quot; to do this, and we can assume that Flinn does the same thing. In other words, she just uses the power as a whole to accomplish something that she sincerely believes she can do.)<br /><br />4. Rand acting with any of the sa'angreal.  He just does things because he feels he can, and doesn't accept the possibility of failure.<br /><br />5. Aviendha's undoing a weave.  Aes Sedai thought it was impossible so they couldn't do it.  Wise Women were never taught it was impossible, so they discovered it.  <br /><br />6. Nynaeve channeling in the ter'angreal when being raised to accepted.  She did something thought impossible because she was emotionally involved, and she doesn't believe anything to be impossible (she has been quoted quite a few times saying that the Power should have no limitations).<br /><br />...And many more.<br /><br />Aes Sedai have doomed themselves to being less strong (as shown above), which takes away their ability somewhat.  I am not saying knowledge is obsolete, but I am saying that Aes Sedai can't perform on a superior level because of their self imposed limitations (oath rod) and there mental limitations (believing something to be impossible, therefore never striving for it.)  <br /><br />Ishamael might have figured this out, being that he is the philosopher.  Why is it that the greatest hero's are those that do not accept limitation?  Because, (and this is very Nietzsche) the human will to act supersedes everything else.  If you can believe it can be done, it can be done.  What is Ishamael called?  The Betrayer of Hope.  I believe this to be of the utmost significance.  He comes in and creates doubt and dissention.  He sent the Trollocs down to destroy the complacency of the world once.  He turned Hawkwing against the Aes Sedai to destroy it again, convincing AH to send his army abroad.  What are the two dooms that were sealed?  One in the past and one in the future (this comment was stated early in the series, so the future doom may have already culminated.)  The past doom was the dissolution of Hawkwing's unified world, and the present doom is a huge, powerful army that arrives just at the wrong time to throw a wrench into Rand's plans to unify the world.<br /><br />Why let the Lord of Chaos rule?  To create doubt and dissention.  There was a theory about the DO's power coming from chaos.  What if that is not the answer.  What if the DO's power comes from doubt and limitation, an effect of chaos, and the Light's strength is faith and hope.  I believe Ishamael has figured this out, and that is why he is not concerned with killing Rand, he just wants those little statues.  He is trying to take away that tool that would give Rand the confidence in his ability to do what must be done.  <br /><br />That is what Cadsuane must teach the Asha'man, by the way.  They must learn that if they combine their efforts with the Aes Sedai and work mutually, then there are no limitations, period.  (It could have something to do with women leading the circle of a link, being that RJ states that men have the power, and women have the skill with the OP).  What does RJ say about links?  A link composed of equal numbers of men and women is stronger than anything else, even if the members are weaker.  Again, he is showing that if one uses all of the One Power in a type of balance, one can accomplish anything.  I think that this was the greatest detrimental effect that the taint had: it took away the ability of channelers to work together and accomplish feats impossible for just men or just women.  Remember, it was only men that sealed the Bore, which accounts for its inadequacy.<br /><br />Going further down this road... <br /><br />This is how laughter and tears come into play with need.  Rand, after being in the prison in Far Madding, comes out and is noticeable harder, &quot;steel&quot;, colder than a winter's heart(which by the way puts a new emphasis on the title).  He is described as emotionless and distant.  Able to do what he needs to do&quot;, able to sacrifice what he needs to sacrifice, which is why he has been trying to steel himself in the first place.  He wants to lose his desire for life to save life.  That is why love is so important in the series.  What's important may not have to do with love itself, but the capacity to love.  All of the good characters exhibit a capacity to love, even if they haven't found it yet.  Why love? Because it supplies an impetus to act, a reason to keep going.  Perrin disallows the option of not finding Faile in TAR (tDR), and he finds her and saves her, driven on by his love, his need.<br /><br />Cadsuane states that without laughter and tears (which are responses to situations in which you are emotionally involved), victory at Tarmon Gaidin would be as bad as defeat.  So, Rand must become emotionally involved.  His desire to defeat the DO has to be more than to save the world, which to Rand is some arbitrary reward in his struggle with the DO.  He will be victorious when he has some superior need, some emotionally desperate need, to put the DO away forever.  And the key to this is him becoming less of a weapon and more of philosopher, in a sense.  He must develop faith that he can do it.  This has precedent.  Luke saved Vader spiritually not by being a badass jedi, but by being his son and sacrificing himself for Darth Vader, fully confident that his father would not let him be destroyed.  Rand may just have to want something so bad, so emotionally, that he replaces his pre-conceived doubts with a desperate hope that will supply an irrational faith of success.  Combine the ultimate will to act with ultimate ability (he still has to do something badass with a lot of the power), and he wins.<br /><br />What this situation will be can be argued.  It could have something to do with his babies, again the parent/child emotional bond that we see in Star Wars.  Or, Rand's trio could perform a Luke Skywalker-type function, with Rand being Vader.  (I know this is a little overkill on Star Wars, but it is analogous.)  This is the importance of his three women.  I think that their perspective of him, which he can feel in his head, will save him and keep him human.  Remember Min's ultimate confidence that Rand could cleanse Saidin?  Rand looked at her and only felt confidence and love exuding from her through the bond.  I think there will come a time when Rand is defeated spiritually and thinks that nothing can be done to defeat the DO.  The women through the bond will effuse love and confidence into him, or maybe sadness and despair from a predicament they put themselves into because of Rand, but either way it will make him just &quot;do&quot; what must be done, without thinking about it and rationalizing it.  He will need desperate, emotional need...a capacity for laughter and tears.<br /><br />I know this was long, but I hope you got through the whole thing because I feel that this is a pretty good hypothesis of what could happen.  <br /><br />Dedric, the philosopher.</p><p><b>Burr says:</b> I don't know.  I got confused by the part about Darth Vader.  Maybe Rand needs to give Ishy a hug.<br /><br /><br /> </p>


created: 2002-02-02 01:39:53
subject: Children of the Light and Templarism
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<p>I've read that The Children of the Light (I refuse to call them Whitecloaks) are a versioin of the Spanish Inquisition.  I however feel that they are more like the Knights Templars, the religious knights that fought in the crusades.  <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /> Both have similar purposes. The Children wish to eradicate all Darkfriends and defeat the Dark One, while the Knights Templars sought to reclaim the holy land (Randland?) and defeat the pagans (Darkfriends?)<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /> Both were relatively unpopular during their times.  Knights Templar were disliked due to their ruthlessness and that most of Europe was horribly in debt to them because of the crusades.  Knights Templar did not have to answer to any one outside their order either.  The Children are also feared for these reasons.<br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /> Their method of dress are closely related, exchange the sunburst for a red cross and you have the cloak of a Knight Templar.  Additionally the Knights, like the Children, did not have overly elobrate armor or weapons for battle.  <br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/whitecloak.gif" border="0" /> If Mr. Jordan is using the Knights Templar and continues to base the Children off their past we can see some intresting things revealed.  The Knights supposidly had the Holy Grail, Orginal Cross, and Ark of the Covenent amongst other holy relics.  Perhpas it will be revealed that the Children have the song that the Tinkers are looking for?  Secondly we may see a persecution of the Children just like the Knights, especially since the Seanchan now have control of Amadicia.  Thus giving the Children a similar downfall.<br /><br />Thank you for listening to my rantings.</p><p><b>StoneDogAiel says:</b> That could very well be. Nice theory. If the Children really do have relics(Ter'Angreal?), that could make life interesting.<br /><br /><br /> </p>


created: 2002-02-02 01:52:26
subject: The Scales have already been weighed
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<p>In response to Rafiq11 and his theory on Joline and Teslyn I have to say that the choice concerning them (and they're being the Aes Sedai on the balance scale that Egwene foresaw) the scales have already been weighed out. That is to say that the choice has already been made.<br /><br />   When Mat first tested Joline he used a misinformed example of the act of kindness that one of them had done. He said the note had been under his pillow rather than in his pocket. When Joline went with it he realized that she was not the one who'd given him the note. This promted him to check with Teslyn.<br /><br />   From that encounter with Teslyn he had to decide whether or not to try and save the both of them or just one. His decision to save Teslyn is what resulted in him being at the palace in Ebou Dar longer than he'd wanted. That in turn led to the encounter with Tuon, thus her ending up coming along on his journey out of there.<br /><br />   If Mat had not taken the time to confirm that Joline had not in fact written the note then he would not have wound up having to kidnap the Daughter of the Nine Moons. Doing so will bring about a chain of events leading to not only his marriage, but also possibly make peace between Rand and the Seanchan. Therefore his decision involving two Aes Sedai has already had a result that will affect the fate of the world. <br /><br />   That's really all that I think needs to be said.</p><p><b>StoneDogAiel says:</b> Well thought out and way to piece it all together. I like your theory and I think that it is a strong possibility. Certainly fate has kept him in Ebou Dar long enough to meet Tuon.<br /><br /><br /> </p>


created: 2002-02-02 14:24:16
subject: The Corruption of the Ways
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<p>I've seen numerous theories on the possibilities of &quot;cleansing&quot; the Ways, but I don't think I've seen any on how they got tainted in the first place....<br /><br />Since we know that the Ways were created using saidin, which, at the time of their growing/creation was already subject to the taint, it's reasonable to assume that the Ways (or anything else created using saidin) would also be subject to the taint.  Now, if we assume that the presence of the taint provided the &quot;seed&quot; for Machin Shin, then we have to assume that Machin Shin may have been present (but perhaps powerless) during the early days of the Ways.  Which means that as the Ways became dark, Machin Shin increased in intensity.  So why did the Ways grow dark?  We know that the Ways were &quot;grown&quot; outside of Stedding and also inside of the Groves near the Ogier-built cities.  BUT, every time Loial has to use a Waygate, he grumbles about how, &quot;...All the trees, every kind that would grow here and the Great Trees standing 100 spans tall are gone...&quot;.  <br /><br />My theory is this: if the Ways were <i>grown</i> (implying that they are living things) in close proximity to Stedding and Groves, then as the Groves were cut down, the Ways became darker, and Machin Shin became more powerful (because, as we know, other creatures of the Dark One are more powerful in the dark than they are in the light). Could we not also presume that if the Groves were replanted, that would brighten up the Ways and thus weaken Machin Shin?<br /></p><p><b>Lauriana Sedai says:</b> Interesting.  I think you make a really sound argument for your theory.  Whether it turns out to be right or not, who can say?  Loial <i> does </i> comment about the missing groves a lot, but I can't decide if this is RJ's way of giving us a clue, or if it's just an ogier's natural reaction to an act that they consider to be as bad as(if not worse than) the murder of a human or ogier.  Nice work! <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/smile.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /> Lauriana Sedai <img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/elayne.gif" border="0" /><br /><br /><br /> </p>


created: 2002-02-02 23:10:51
subject: al'Thor is the Anti-Christ
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<p>C'mon people, am I the only person to spot this?  I have conclusive evidence that Rand al'Thor, the Dragon Reborn, the Coramoor, the Car'a'carn, and any other names he may have, is in fact, the Anti-Christ.  If you look in tDR and find the page where he declares himself the Dragon, look up and notice the page number...it's 666.  Probably just coincidence, but i thought it was pretty freaky.</p><p><b>Raserei says:</b> And after ALL this time, I never knew!<br /><br />*holds his Catcher in the Rye book tight* I think I'll have to do something about it!<br /><br /><br /> </p>


created: 2002-02-03 22:46:26
subject: Wait a minute...I'm a GENIUS!!! a.k.a. Forsaken Chex Mix
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<p>Something I wrote in an earlier theory I submitted just made me think of something interesting!  I was writing against the Taimandred theory, the thought was along the lines of &quot;Sammael and Demandred both went over to the Shadow because they were jealous of LTT, but I have yet to hear of any theories saying that Sammy is Demandred&quot;...then it hit me...Sammael is indeed Demandred!  My theory is this:  all of the Forsaken, in long ago power struggles with the Light and eachother, all ended up using various pseudonyms, power-wrought disguises, and false identities...eventually getting so complex that even they were confused as to who was who.  Following that, they each took the name they THOUGHT was theirs, but some of them got fouled up.<br /><br />Here's the breakdown...Ishamael was so crazy by that point that he declared himself the Dark One, and upon this the Dark One (who was REALLY wasted because he had just gone on a huge bender the night before to celebrate his 47,342,357,592,623,625,772,606,340,033,302th wedding anniversary) declared himself the Creator before passing out in a drunken stupor.  The Creator, thinking the whole thing was quote &quot;Funny as all hell,&quot; declared himself Narg.  So Ishamael=Dark One=Creator=Narg.<br /><br />Now, later on Narg (the Creator) was killed by Rand and was thusly reborn as Moridin, but we'll get to him in a bit.  Asmodean, getting really confused by an inverted powerwrought image, declared himself to be in fact Graendal...besides, he always did like gaudy jewelry.  Graendal, in turn, declared herself Semirhage (as she knew about some sort of Healing, and always had a little S&amp;M streak in her).  Semirhage, having gone to the Dark One's anniversary bash and having had a little joke played on her by Sammael, was really out of her head, so she subsequently declared herself the Dragon Reborn and set out to build an army...later she would be known as Logain.  So, Asmodean=Graendal=Semirhage=Logain.<br /><br />While all this was going on, Aginor and Sammael decided to switch places...unfortunately Aginor wasn't really Aginor, but in fact a mixed up Mesaana...and Sammael was a confused Be'lal.  The REAL Aginor, who had at first thought he was Demandred, eventually decided he was Ishamael.  As for Sammael, we'll leave him for last.  So, Mesaana=Aginor=Sammael and Be'lal=Sammael=Aginor=Ishamael...or would that be Mesaana=Aginor=Sammael=Be'lal=Sammael=Aginor=Ishamael?<br /><br />Anyway, Rahvin mistook himself for Balthamel...although most everyone else thinks he is Asmodean, so thus he is known.  And Balthamael thought he was Lanfear, who in turn thought SHE was Moghedien.  Meanwhile Demandred became sure he was Rahvin, but due to a blow to the head he gained a multiple personallity disorder...the other persona thought it was Balthemel.  And our old friend the Spider thought she was Mesaana.  So, Demandred=Balthamel=Lanfear=Moghedien=Mesaana=Aginor=Sammael=Be'lal=Sammael=Aginor and Rahvin=Asmodean=Graendal=Semirhage=Logain.<br /><br />Now, Moridin, being the Creator decided it would be a real goof to kill off Sammael, so he arranged for Mashadar to devour him...unfortunately the Creator had been busy playing around as Narg, so he didn't realize that Sammael was, in fact, Mesaana.  And, as we know, Rand killed Ishamael...but what very few know is that Ishamael was really Aginor.  And from that, we get Osan'gar and Aran'gar...who, at some point, got mixed up.  So Mesaana=Aginor=Sammael=Osan'gar=Aran'gar and Aginor=Ishamael.<br /><br />Now...this leaves only the REAL Sammael, who mistook himself for Demandred...so you see...Sammael=Demandred.<br /><br />So, <br />Sammael=Demandred=Balthamel=Lanfear=Moghedien=Mesaana=Aginor=Sammael=Be'lal=Sammael=Aginor=Ishamael=Dark One=Creator=Narg=Moridin, Rahvin=Asmodean=Graendal=Semirhage=Logain, with Aran'gar and Osan'gar thrown in for good measure.<br /><br />Don't believe me?  Well, just think about it...if you don't believe it or can't figure it out...take a shot of Wild Turkey and think some more, repeat this until it makes sense.  (NOTE:  This method of deep thought should not be used by pregnant women, people with heath conditions, or those not of legal drinking age, as it might be too intense for people in such states...and kids too young to drink are not mature enough to understand such a complex subject, we'll except me...but then again, I'm a genius!)</p><p><b>Raserei says:</b> *head explodes*<br /><br /><br /> </p>


created: 2002-02-06 11:21:03
subject: What does the Dark One want to happen
body:
<p>This is my first time submitting a theory so I hope that I haven't tackled too big of an issue. But this is a question that I have been trying to figure out for some time. I think it pretty much goes without saying that the Dark One does not want to kill Rand and that he never has.  Evidence:<br /><br />1)Rand and his friends are not incinerated by Ishamael at the beginning of the Eye of the World. Obviously Ishamael has been free to some extent for quite a while and arguably he was completely free by the beginning of the Eye of the World. Even if we go so far as to believe that he is locked up, he could definitely communicate and have the Black Ajah take care of it. But, I believe Ishamael has always been free, otherwise who is Lewis Therin communicating with after he kills everyone and earns the name kinslayer?<br /><br />2) Everything that Ishamael does in the first three books is designed to push Rand in a certain direction, not to kill (with the exception of the final battle in the Dragon Reborn). I can only assume that he is acting on the Dark One's wishes because in the end he is Naeblis. Now the Dark One is not omniscient so it is possible that he doesn't know that Ishamael was trying to kill Rand or maybe (and more likely) he forgave it because of his need.  In any case I haven't seen anything to indicate that the Dark One wants Rand dead, (with the possible exception of Winter's Heart but I will get to that later).<br /> <br />I realize that I could name about a hundred pieces of evidence so I will stop because I don't think anyone can doubt that up till Winter's Heart the Dark One wanted Rand alive. So what does he want? I think his ultimate goal is to get out of the prison that he is in (obviously), but how is he going to accomplish this end? My theory is that he wants a second breaking of the world. I don't think any of his chosen or other lackeys realize what his ultimate goal is, but nevertheless I believe this is his aim because:<br /><br />1) We don't have any evidence that he tries to kill Rand until Winter's Heart. Before this he seems content to let Rand live and he even saves him twice. Once in the stone when he has Semirhage send Trollocs and Myrddraal and most likely once in Shadar Logoth. But after Rand removes the taint it seems near certain that either Moridin has gone AWOL or the Dark One is finally ready to believe that Rand has outlived his usefulness. <br /><br />2) The only thing that changes is that Rand removed the taint. So what was that gaining for the Dark One? If we follow the string of a second breaking than Rand is his unwilling accomplice by recruiting and teaching channelers who will go mad and create a second breaking. <br /><br />3) But why Rand? If Ishamael is free he could easily have recruited this army of channelers necessary. The Dark One could have told him that he would shield them and after they were gathered he could have removed his protection from them all. I think that the Dark One needs Rand or that soul who is the Creator's champion. The world of the wheel seems steeped in prophecy. The pattern bends threads as necessary to create certain events. So there is to some extent predestination but within this concept there is flexibility. I think that the Dark One is relying on that fact. He can't force the pattern but he can use what he is given. Rand is there. Rand has to feel that there is enough of a threat that he will need channelers. All that is happening is going according to plan until Rand figures out how to remove the taint.<br /><br />3) the Dark One tried to break out once before and maybe even twice. The first would be when Mierin tapped into the unified power for the first time. The second is probably when he released his backlash against Lewis Therin. I think that what the Dark One wants is to destroy the world. It is just possible that the world is his prison or perhaps the lock more accurately. The thinness in the pattern at Shayol Ghul would account for this as well, sort of the idea of a chip or weak point. The Dark One does not want to undue reality, I believe this is why both sides stop using balefire.   It also explains Rand's title as the Lord of Chaos. <br /><br /> SO without the taint on the male source the Dark One has 1) decided to kill Rand and wait until the wheel comes to the right place and try again; it may be a long time but that would have no meaning to an immortal being, or 2) has decided to continue with his plan and try and destroy the world during the last battle and make another attempt to get free. I'm sure that I have forgotten some key piece of information that will completely disprove my theory and I eagerly wait to hear your thoughts.</p><p><b>Vercingetorix says:</b> Very interesting theory.  One thing I should point out though.  Ishamael was not bound, yes, but he was not free either.  It is generally considered that he would be free for a period(40 years), and then bound for a period.  This would bounce back and forth through out the Age until he and all the rest of the Forsaken were fully freed.  What does everyone else think about this?<br /><br /><br /> </p>


created: 2002-02-07 00:12:54
subject: A study on Moridin
body:
<p>A number of posts have all stated that Moridin/Ishamael is insane, I disagree and would say that his actions are perfectly sane if you look at them the right way.<br /><br />Common reasons for thinking he's a nutter:<br /><br />1: The past lives nonsense.  His speech in Eye of the World, specifically the gloat over Lews Therin and the temptation of the Taveren.  His lines seemed a bad take on Darth Vader tempting Luke to the Dark side, full of comments on the wheel of time and that in past lives Rand served the Great Lord rather than opposing the Dark One.<br /><br />2: Arrogance, he has it in bucket loads.<br /><br />3: Tempting the taveren rather than just killing them all in their dreams before they can become a threat.  This implies he is your common megolomaniac who has no concept that if you do that - you LOSE! The weak threat you try to subvert becomes a strong threat and kicks your ass.<br /><br />4: The True Power - its commonly understood that anyone who dares use it is unhinged as it is so dangerous.<br /><br />5: Acting as if he is the Naeblis already - this has been covered in lots of previous posts.  The key element seems to be that he dares to name Shaitan, and no other forsaken dares to do that.<br /><br />Reasons for disputing these issues:<br /><br />1: Past lives, his occupation in the Age Of Legends was that of a philosopher - Implication is that he studied the wheel of time and the nature of the pattern.  It is not that big a jump of reason to say that maybe he found some truths about reborn souls.<br /><br />   Additionally who else do we know who has knowledge of past lives - Mat Cauthon, who often makes comments in the Old Tongue and displays knowledge that he should not possibly have known as far as onlooking characters are aware.  Why do the readers accept this and not judge Mat as insane, because they known it is a result of the Finns after he went though the Ter'angreal doorway in Rhuidean.<br /><br />   The ter'angreal is a product of the Age Of Legends and was presumably common knowledge and relatively easy to access in the Age Of Legends.  It's my thought that Ishamael in the Age Of Legends went through the doorway and as one of his three wishes asked for knowledge of the pattern.  The Finn then stuffed knowledge of his past lives, through various ages where he served the Dark one, into his skull.<br /><br />   Alternative suggestion for those who don't believe the above is through use of the Horn of Valere.  When it was used in The Great Hunt the various heroes betrayed knowledge that certain souls are reborn and fight for various sides in the different incarnations.  As Birgitte was ripped out of the pattern with that knowledge or as Rand, Mat and Perrin learned by riding with the heroes - so there are possibilities that Ishmael learned of past lives thruough the Horn of Valere.<br /><br />2: Whats wrong with arrogance, if you've got power you can feel secure, if you know more than others you can look on knowingly.  From all thats been shown in the books, things seemed to be going pretty much according to plan for Moridin so far.<br /><br />3: Tempting the taveren rather than killing them straight off.  My own theory of this is that the Dragon has been reborn many times already this age but in each case he died before discovering who he was and declaring himself.  The prophecies are only valid for this rebirth as it is the rebirth which counts.<br /><br />   That said, I think that the Dark One needs the Dragon to be reborn, perhaps the dark prophecies have a list of major events which will weaken the seals and release the Dark One.  This means that Ishamael is trying his best to push the Rand into the series of actions which the Dark One needs in a way that release the Dark One as quickly as possible.<br /><br />   As for the tempting, if you take the above as possible, then think of what you would rather have: a Dragon running round doing unpredictable things and possibly getting himself killed before he can release the Dark One, or a tame Dragon living in Shayol Ghul that you can wheel out to whatever action the dark prophecies say should happen next.  As far as I am concerned, if the dragon is needed, then it is worth a try.  It might even have worked if he had figured out what Rand weakness was - Egwene at that time.  I would say that is the reason that three taveren were together rather than allying later, so that the presence of Mat and Perrin would help disguise Rand from those searching before he was ready to deal with them.<br /><br />4: True power the use of which is very dangerous, and is used as a last resort.  Step back and think about what finished the war of power, all the Chosen were sealed in Shayol Ghul when they were meeting.  So how come Ishamael could manifest every so often to gloat at Lews Therin, start the Trolloc war, manipulate Arthur Hawkwing and set up the web of Darkfriends?<br /> <br />   The key phrase is manifest, with the Chosen sealed off from the One Power as if the seals worked as a shield against the source over Shayol Ghul, what was left for them to use?  The true power - the other forsaken would have hesitated to use the true power, and were then frozen into dreamless sleep. Ishyamaelon the other hand as Naeblis, would have had no fear of whether he had permission and would have grasped for the True Power.  It is possible that the true power could still be used, and that was what allowed Ishamael a limited manifestation outside Shayol Ghul.<br /> <br />   If so then he has been using the True Power only by necessity for the last 3 1/2 thousand years.  By the time that he was released at the end of Eye of the World, then the control he would have had to have gained over the True Power by using it for so long and still surviving would mean that the true Power holds no fear for him.<br /><br />5: The issue most gone into on the boards is whether or not that Ishamael/Moridin is actually Naeblis and when he was granted that title.<br /><br />   The theories I have read so far seem generally to agree that the Dark One was promising the post to most of the forsaken.  This does not exclude him having already given the post to Ishamael, so the much quoted passage about Moridin watching Sammael and Graendal discussing Sammael having been offered the post would not have worried Moridin in the slightest.<br /><br />   The real issue seems to be whether Ishamael daring to call the Dark One by his name signifies that Ishamael was Naeblis at the time.  Some people say that this can only be because he was Naeblis, others say that he was not Naeblis and that he dared call the Dark One by name because what that does is attract the Dark One's attention and Ishamael had no fear of his attention.<br /><br />   My opinion on this is the quote from Lanfear that she could not call the Dark One by name because that would be 'blasphemy'.  If it is blasphemy then you wouldn't commit blasphemy just because you are righteous, as blasphemy has been seen as a traditional way to piss the God you worship off.  I side with the view that Ishamael could name the Dark One because he had permission above and over the other chosen because he was already Naeblis at the end of Age Of Legends.<br /><br />To sum up Ishamael/Moridin seems to act strangely, but all his actions seem logical if you accept that he is sane and knows what he is talking about.  After all he built up the forces of Trollocs, Myrddraal etc. he recruited the networks of darkfriends, he divided the Westlands again and again, and caused the whole issue of the Seanchan to come back to threaten the Westlands.  His actions have prepared the forces of the Dark One for the final battle, the rest of the forsaken except for Messaana, Demandred, Graendal and Semirhage when they have acted seem to have done more harm than good. Who deserves the post more than Moridin.</p><p><b>Vercingetorix says:</b> Wow, that is a very long, in depth theory.  I especially like the idea that the reason Ishamael was not fully bound was through his use of the True Power.  Nice job!  One thing I should point out though, Mat's memories are NOT memories from his past lives OR his ancestors.  They are simply memories from dead men stuffed into his head.  So I wouldn't say that Ishamael could have had memories of his past lives filled in a la Mat.  But if he specifically asked for memories from his past lives, I suppose it is possible that the Finns granted his request.  I don't know, I'm a little confused on the matter.  Anyone care to shed some enlightenment?<br /><br /><br /> </p>


created: 2002-02-07 12:06:44
subject: Four Armies Approaching Caemlyn
body:
<p>I think that the four armies marching on Caemlyn are led by Gawyn.  I checked my books and we haven't heard from him since the beginning of the Crown of Swords, when he was situated near Dumai Wells, somewhere between Cairhien and Tar Valon.  When he heard rumors that Elayne was alive and had claimed the throne, he set about building an army to help her.  Here's some evidence to support it.<br /><br />1. We haven't heard from him in a while, but he's a major character, and utterly dedicated to protecting Elayne.<br /><br />2. When we last saw him, he was in the right place, and enough time has elapsed since then for him to build an army, it has to be at least a few months since Dumai's Wells.<br /><br />3. He has about 200 expert swordsman at his back to begin with.  They could take on many times their number of regular soldiers and still win.  That would make up a lot of peoples minds to support him, whatever he's trying to do.<br /><br />4. It's concievable that many of the other Younglings are of noble houses in Cairhien and Andor, since both countries respect Aes Sedai and would value the training their young noblemen could get from the Warders.  Since many in Cairhien support Elayne for the Sun Throne, the possibility of Cairhienins and Andorans who still support the Trakands joining together is not unlikely. Plus, Gawyn is the Younglings' leader, and could have their support whatever he did.<br /><br />5. We've heard so much about the oath Gawyn took to protect his sister, isn't this the perfect time to fulfill it.  <br /><br />Besides, Gawyn is the only possibility that I can think of that really makes any since.  I've heard the possibility of Ogier armies mentioned, and as much as I like the Ogier, I think that's pretty remote.</p><p><b>Vercingetorix says:</b> Hmmmm, I haven't actually heard this idea before.  I think I like it.  But could Gawyn raise 20000-30000 men in that short a time?  Other possibilities exist other than the Ogier, though.  Probably the most common theory I have seen is that the armies belong to Naean and Elenia (the two claimants to the throne that were imprisoned and then freed), and Arymilla and Nasin, the former claiming the throne and the latter assisting her.  That makes four houses with four sets of armsmen...four armies?  Note that there are also two other houses that are arrayed against Elayne, just not fully aligned with anyone yet.  At this point I am not really sure who the armies belong to.  It certainly would be good for Elayne if they are Gawyn's!<br /><br /><br /> </p>


created: 2002-02-08 16:34:13
subject: Verin and Moiraine &#8211; The lies redux
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<p>The question is still being asked about who lied in TGH, Verin or Moiraine. This and that theory have been tossed around and we are still none the wiser. I've just reread both sections in close detail and put forward that both Aes Sedai were telling the truth, even through they were cutting it fine.<br /><br />When Verin catches up with the party, she seeks out Ingtar immediately: &#8220;Moiraine Sedai sent me, Lord Ingtar,&#8221; Verin announced with a satisfied smile. &#8220;She thought you might need me&#8221; Note she is saying you, referring to Ingtar.<br /><br />Then, five days outside of Falme, the following happened between Moiraine and Rand: &#8220;What you could. You sent Verin to shepherd me, but I'm no sheep, Moiraine. You said I could go where I wanted, and I mean to go where you are not.&#8221;<br /><br />&#8220;I did not send Verin.&#8221; Moiraine frowned. &#8220;She did that on her own.&#8221;<br /><br />Look carefully at the contexts. Verin was speaking to Ingtar, and the word &quot;you&quot; refers to him. When Rand speaks to Moiraine, he specifically states that Verin was sent to shepherd him and Moiraine denies that, saying that Verin decided to do that, the shepherding, on her own. I know it's a close call, but I put the following forward as an explanation.<br /><br />We know we don't always see everything in WoT, especially in the early books, such as the discussion between Verin, Moiraine and Siuan in Fal Dara. Now knowing how tenacious Verin is, she probably kept working on the problem of the attack and the writings on the wall of the cells. Maybe she found out that Ingtar or one of his men was responsible and told Siuan and Moiraine about it.<br /><br />Moiraine then decided that action was needed to protect the horn and the party and acted, sending Verin to keep an eye on Ingtar or whoever they suspected to be a Darkfriend, while she went to Adeleas and Vandene to find out more about how the Horn tied into the Prophecies and if a Darkfriend could use it and bind the Heroes to the Shadow. Verin was not sent to control Rand, and she didn't seem concerned about the three of them disappearing, as she would have if her primary goal was Rand. Instead she kept with the group, hoping that her presence would dissuade the Darkfriend from acting when they found the Horn.<br /><br />Rand misinterpreted this as an act of control by Moiraine and she denied this. He already knew that Ingtar was the Darkfriend responsible for the attack in Fal Dara and Moiraine knew as well. It wasn't brought up because both knew that it would destroy the rest of the Shienarans and that Rand needed it. Rand knew it, but didn't know that she did, hence his surprise at the change of topic. She knew that if he pressed her on Verin, she would have to explain about Ingtar and that she knew he was a Darkfriend.<br /><br /><br />There is no problem here after all, as I see it. The problem arose because we looked at the words spoke, the &#8220;Moiraine Sedai sent me&#8221; and &#8220;I did not send her.&#8221; as complete points and referring to each other in totality, while in fact they were parts of two separate literary structures, the first being unrelated to Rand and the second a direct response to a very specific statement by Rand. <br /><br />And before we start on the semantics of the language used, Moiraine has always spoken in a conservative way, when something is obvious from the sentence context, she doesn't usually say it. Like all of us, she doesn't state the bleeding obvious.<br /></p><p><b>Burr says:</b> Yet more alternatives to Verin lying.  There are a lot of these floating around now, but yours is rather observant and, I think, original.  Good job.<br /><br /><br /> </p>


created: 2002-02-10 23:30:52
subject: Bran al'Vere is a Darkfriend! or a Seanchan...
body:
<p>*ducks the rotten tomatos and such flying at her head*  Wait! Wait!  I can prove it!<br /><br />I remember reading in an RJ interview that he used Gaelic to help make up the Old Tongue.  I have this book of Irish first names, and I was flipping through it one day in search of a character name and I ran across *gasp* Bran!  How cool was that?!  so I read the entry and Bran comes from a word that means 'raven'!  And what do ravens do?  SPY!  For the Dark One, which would make him a Darkfriend (and of course the Two Rivers is chock full of 'em!).  Or he might be a Seanchan Seeker.  He's the <i>Corenne </i>to the <i>Corenne</i>.  I'll bet he can channel, too.  I know Marin can.  In truth, her cooking is really bad, but she's got everyone Compelled up the wazoo to think hers are the best honeycakes in the district!<br /><br /><img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" />Catriona sedai of the Color-shifting Ajah<img src="http://www.msu.edu/~mackertm/wotmania/images/nynaeve.gif" border="0" /><br />Just TRY and find us....</p><p><b>Raserei says:</b> LOL!  And I bet Ol' Cenn Buie is a Atha&#8217;an Miere Windfinder!!<br /><br /><br /> </p>


created: 2002-02-10 23:41:46
subject: The Last Battle
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<p>I have a fairly good idea how the last battle will turn out, so here it goes.......<br /><br />Rand, after seeing the birth of Elayne's Twins, Aviendra's Quadruplets, and Min's Octuplets, is feeling as if he can do almost anything, decides to go to Shayol Ghul, along with Mat(minus one eye, due to a shocklance mishap) and his Band of the red hand, and Perrin (married to both Faile &amp; Berelin after he accidently wore white after labour day causing Berelin to fall in love with him), with some wolves, Loial and Two rivers folk.The asha'man failed to show up after Taim goes insane from everyone thinking he's Demandred and kills all but a few. <br /><br />Mat blows the horn of Valere and know one shows up after being reborn as children around the world. Rand walks ahead of everyone and takes the seals and breaks all but one, which he has trouble with, while trying he falls and cracks his head open, and in landing on the last seal breaks it, and releases the Dark one. <br /><br />Perrin and his army retreats because they realize that without Rand they are helpless. Mat and his Band, known for never running from a battle, stay and fight. The Dark One, posessing the body of Narg, blinks and wipes the Band,the two rivers folk, and the wolves from existence. He walks over to Rand's body to gloat, when all of a sudden he slips on Rands blood and falls to the ground breaking his neck. Loial suddenly remebers the song to bring peace to the world, &quot;ding-dong, the dark one's dead.&quot; Then enters the Creator posessing the body of Robert Jordan. Using the Truer Power he brings Rand back to life and they all go for an ale.</p><p><b>Raserei says:</b> Perrin is such a wussy.<br /><br /><br /> </p>


created: 2002-02-12 10:07:24
subject: Genetics, the One Power, and Six-toed cats
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<p>Here is a theory that I thought was pretty self evident, but a lot of people seem to miss it.<br /><br />Throughout the series, we have been shown that the people from the two rivers are strong in the power.  Rand is possibly the strongest male channeler alive, while Nynaeve is one of the strongest, at least top five or ten.  Egwene is also incredibly strong.<br /><br />Later in the series, we find that Alanna and the other Aes Sedai with her are bringing about 10 girls to the Tower from the Two Rivers.  They remark on the fact that there is a higher concentration of high-level channelers in the Two Rivers than almost anywhere else.<br /><br />Now, some seem to think that this is attributed to the fact that there are (or were) three taveren in the Two Rivers, so this affected the power-weilding capabilities.  This would be acceptable, except for the one thought by Perrin.<br /><br />Perrin at one point says he is surprised to find out that cats only have 5 toes.  He thinks that in the Two Rivers all the cats have six toes.<br /><br />Why do the cats have six toes?  This is an actual phenomenon that occurs in geographically isolated places.  The cats inter-breed, the gene pool is limited, and they get six toes.  It is due to the fact that there are no new genes in the gene pool.<br /><br />Now, apply this to channeling.  If channeling is genetic, than those that are strong in the power will produce offspring who are strong in the power.  However, if no one recognizes that they are channeling or the spark never manifests, then life would continue as normal.  The channelers would continue to breed with channelers, etc.  Give that about 1000 years, and you've got Rand, Nynaeve, and Egwene.<br /><br />In my mind this proves that channeling is genetic.  Even if it doesn't always manifest in the children, it will in the grand children or great-grandchildren.<br /><br />In this same vein, think about Shara.  Their channelers ONLY breed with other channelers.  I think if we ever see them in the story they will be far more powerful than most of the people we see now.</p><p><b>Burr says:</b> This is an interesting theory, but you haven't quite disproven the alternative.  If the presence of ta'veren can increase the number of strong channelers, can't it just as easily (and probably more easily) increase the number of six-toed cats?<br /><br /><br /> </p>


created: 2002-02-13 22:26:30
subject: Portal Stones
body:
<p>This is a loose theory, and even if it is right, it is probably inconsequential.  However, it seems to make sense, so hear goes: portal stones are used four times so far, to take Rand, Loial, and Hurin into the alternate world and back, to take the Horn Hunters to Almoth Plain, and to take Rand and Co. to the Aiel Waste.  <br /><br />The interesting thing is this: each time accept the first, a strong, experianced female channeler was present, but Rand had to do the channeling.  In fact, in the second case, Selene (Lanfear) who, of all people, should know how to travel by portal stone demands that Rand use the stone, even though grolm were about to get them and she had said already that she had fallen asleep next to the stone to awake in the other world, as much as admitting that she could use portal stones.  In the third case, Verin told Rand to approach the stone with her and which symbols to concentrate on.  It seems like she could have done it herself, since she did not have to pretend she wasn't an experianced channeler, like Lanfear did.  Also, we know from Lanfear that the Ways were made by studying the alternate worlds, and we know from Loial that the Ways were made exclusively by male Aes Sedai.  <br /><br />My point is this: only males can use portal stones.  Female channelers can't.  <br /> <br />The big question is why was Lanfear in that alternate world in the first place?  Remember, on the very night that Rand was transported into the other world, Egwene dreamed of him asleep with a woman in white, obviously Lanfear, standing over him.  Maybe she was transported by accident at the same time Rand, Hurin, and Loial were.  She had been sighted before that by the horn hunters, so we can be pretty sure she was not in Cairhien on this night, so why would she have come to the world by the stone outside of Cairhien?  She could have remembered approximate locations of stones from the Age of Legends and Travelled away to find another one before Rand and his companions awoke.  <br />  Still, why did she not stay and tell Rand to use the same stone?  We know how she wanted Rand to have glory and power and all that.  Maybe she saw a way to use the situation to her advantage by making Rand into a hero.<br />  Anyway, that is my first theory.  I hope it gets posted.  Thanks for your time.</p><p><b>Jeordam says:</b> Interesting theory...but I only see one major thought that would hitch the first part of it.<br /><br />We know that for the most part, male channelers are quite a bit stronger than female channelers.  There are notable exceptions, but all in all, on a strength level, the average female channeler cannot match the male channeler.  We also know that it requires a good deal of strength to work a Portal Stone (let alone knowledge).  On this point alone, I would say that the average male channeler could work a Portal Stone (or an above average, since we have no other basis of reference...no other male has used them except for Rand) and that only the exceptionally strong female channelers could work one of the Stones (of course Lanfear could, and we can suppose that the other female forsaken could pull it off as well).  So, we can speculate that only the exceptionally strong could pull it off. [your supposition that only the men can work it baised off of the ways doesn't quite fit.  The ways were grown as a thanks to the ogier for sheltering them...the female Aes Sedai had no such debt, besides the fact that they would not associate with any of the men at that time fearing the taint and it's effects]<br /><br />The second part of your theory is quite interesting though.  How did Lanfear happen to make her way to that exact &quot;world of if&quot; that Rand and co. made it to?  Either she was transported there with them (she would have had to been there in the flesh), or she possess some knowledge or ability that we don't know (like a re-dial button of sorts).  As for how Lanfear got there...I have no idea.  I must say, that I'm quite interested in this thought now.  Good work.<br /><br /><br /> </p>


